Wednesday Volume 561 24 April 2013 No. 145

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 24 April 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 867 24 APRIL 2013 868

people as possible to come to Blantyre in my House of Commons constituency and visit the centre there and take part in the celebrations? Wednesday 24 April 2013 David Mundell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for noting the work the UK Government, and indeed the The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Scottish Government, have done on the matter. He, too, is to be commended for the part he has played in PRAYERS promoting the David Livingstone bicentenary. He is correct: there are a number of continuing events, [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] and all those who wish to do so should take the opportunity to take part in them. BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I very much welcome the various celebrations that the Minister has HUMBER BRIDGE BILL announced today. Does he agree that there could be no Bill, as amended, considered. finer commemoration of that magnificent missionary, scientist, statesman and explorer than his gravestone in Westminster Abbey? It does not list any honours, or Oral Answers to Questions even his dates of birth and death or his parenthood; on a piece of Scottish granite, it simply says the magnificent words “David Livingstone.” Scotland Office David Mundell: Indeed, that is a poignant memorial The Secretary of State was asked— to Dr Livingstone. It was particularly memorable to see members of his family laying a wreath on the gravestone, David Livingstone: Anniversary along with President Banda, at the commemorative 1. Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): What service. steps his Department has taken to commemorate the Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I 200th anniversary of the birth of David Livingstone. presume that Dr Livingstone was a great educationalist, [150798] who believed in education. What has the Minister’s right hon. Friend the Secretary of State done to set up The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland the school-industry liaison committees that he promised (David Mundell): The Scotland Office is working closely me some months ago? with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for International Development and the David Livingstone Mr Speaker: Order. That is very tangentially related 200 partnership on the programme of celebrations to to the 200th anniversary of the birth of David Livingstone. mark the 200th anniversary of the birth of Dr David The hon. Gentleman should not speculate about what Livingstone. On 19 March, the Scotland Office hosted a Dr Livingstone would have said, because the fact is that reception at Dover House following the commemorative he did not—he was not in a position to do so and he service at Westminster Abbey in the presence of President cannot do so now. I think we had better move on. I call Joyce Banda of Malawi. Iain Stewart. Mrs Laing: I am sure the whole House will be Caledonian Sleeper Train pleased to hear what the Scotland Office is doing. It is 2. Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): What fitting, especially to those of us who well remember discussions he has had with the Scottish Government childhood trips to Blantyre, the birthplace of David on the future of the Caledonian sleeper train. [150799] Livingstone, that tribute should be paid to him here in Parliament. Does my right hon. Friend agree that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland although a minority of Scots want to put artificial (David Mundell): The UK Government provided £50 million barriers around Scotland, the vast majority of Scots to safeguard and improve the Caledonian sleeper service believe in the pioneering, enterprising spirit of David in 2011. Responsibility for taking the project forward is Livingstone, and want Scotland to play its full part now with the Scottish Government. We look forward in the United Kingdom, and indeed in the world in general? finally to seeing some progress. David Mundell: I could not agree more. David Iain Stewart: I am pleased that the Government have Livingstone was both a great Scot and a great Briton, invested in the future of the Caledonian sleeper, which who had an outward, progressive-looking attitude to is a vital transport link for business and tourism alike, the world, which exemplifies why Scotland and Britain but does my right hon. Friend share my disappointment are better together. that the Scottish Government have not shown the same urgency on upgrading that vital link? Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): I place on record my thanks to the David Mundell: I agree with my hon. Friend. He Scotland Office and the Foreign Office for ensuring might be aware that, since the spending review, the that President Joyce Banda was able to visit Scotland, Scottish Government have received over £1 billion in particularly Blantyre in my constituency, to mark the additional funding for what they said were shovel-ready start of the celebrations. May I draw the attention of projects, but the only shovelling of which they seem the Minister and the House to the wide range of events capable is digging the sort of hole that we saw yesterday happening through the year, and encourage as many regarding the currency. 869 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 870

Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Jim Sheridan: I thank the Minister for that response. (SNP): The Scottish National party Government have Does he agree that having to pay to volunteer is a in fact invested £130 million in the sleeper service— contradiction in terms, and that that debars many people [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Glasgow South from participating in a sport such as golf? Will he make West (Mr Davidson) wants to be quiet, he can be. The further representations to the Ryder cup’s organisers SNP Government understand the importance of linking that they should follow the lead of Glasgow city council mega-regions, which has been identified by Professor by creating genuine volunteers? Richard Florida as a win-win for all concerned. In Spain, the linking of Seville to Madrid has benefited David Mundell: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s not only Seville as intended, but Madrid far more. With concerns, which I will take forward with EventScotland the sleeper service maintained to Inverness and Fort and Shona Robison, the Scottish Government Minister William, when will the UK Government ensure that with responsibility for the Ryder cup. there are high-speed links and landing slots at Heathrow to maintain full connectivity between mega-regions, Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and because we want England, in particular, to keep pace Lesmahagow) (Lab): The Ryder cup is a unique golf with Scottish prosperity post independence? tournament, because the competitors compete not for cash prizes but for the pride of representing their country David Mundell: The Government are committed to or continent, so it is perverse that volunteers will be ensuring that there is connectivity within the United asked to pay to deliver their services. Will the Minister Kingdom, just as they are committed to ensuring that add that point to his representations when he meets the we stay a United Kingdom. event’s organisers?

Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Has David Mundell: I will certainly be happy to add my right hon. Friend considered that the sleeper service the hon. Gentleman’s concerns to those expressed by might be better served if there were electrification of the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North the east coast main line between Edinburgh and Aberdeen? (Jim Sheridan). Coincidentally, that passes through my constituency, and the project would provide a better service for the Welfare Reform stations of Ladybank, Cupar and Leuchars.

David Mundell: The right hon. and learned Gentleman 4. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): is rightly always keen to promote his constituency interests, What discussions he has had with the Secretary of but he will be aware that that was one of the many State for Work and Pensions and the Chancellor of the projects that the Scottish National party said in opposition Exchequer on the Government’s welfare benefit it would deliver—yet it does not seem to be on the reforms in Scotland. [150801] agenda any more. 5. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): When he Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): last met the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Does the Minister accept that the Caledonian sleeper is to discuss the effects of welfare reform in Scotland. a vital link between the Ministry of Defence in London [150802] and the shipyards on the Clyde? Does he accept that trade on the Caledonian sleeper will drastically reduce The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): in the event that we have separation and the Clyde My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I are in shipyards close? regular contact with ministerial colleagues in the Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions on matters David Mundell: What I accept is that if we were to relating to welfare reform in Scotland. have separation, there would be a great deal of uncertainty, and not just for the operators of the Caledonian sleeper Pete Wishart: We now know that more than 100,000 Scots service. As we saw yesterday, for example, those promoting will be affected by the Government’s bedroom tax, independence have no idea what currency would be which is opposed by over 90% of Scottish MPs and has used in an independent Scotland, which will be a significant appalled civic Scotland. It is opposed in every locality factor in creating additional uncertainty. in Scotland and there have been protests in Glasgow. Does the Secretary of State agree that the bedroom tax Ryder Cup is quickly becoming his Government’s poll tax?

Michael Moore: No, I do not agree with the hon. 3. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Gentleman, as he will not be surprised to hear. My right (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I have been going organisers of the Ryder cup in Scotland regarding their around Scotland talking to councils and groups that voluntary charging policy. [150800] have an interest in the matter and are concerned about different aspects of implementation, and we will continue The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland to do that. However, people are clear that we want to (David Mundell): I am very pleased that the Ryder cup is keep together within the United Kingdom the universal coming to Scotland in 2014. We will work with the and shared values that created the welfare state and the Scottish Government and the organisers to make it a NHS, rather than for Scotland to become an independent success. country. 871 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 872

Fiona O’Donnell: A family in my constituency with The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): children aged two, three, four and five who have been The Budget will support businesses, create jobs and hit by the bedroom tax were yesterday advised by those help households in Scotland. Against a challenging on the Government Benches in the Finance Bill Committee international economic backdrop, the Budget has set to take in a lodger. Does the Secretary of State think out a range of measures to build a stronger economy that was good advice? and a fairer society.

Michael Moore: I obviously cannot comment on the Ann McKechin: Ministers will be aware of a report constituency details that the hon. Lady has brought to today by the Fawcett Society showing that three times the Floor of the House today or on the full extent of the as many women as men have suffered long-term exchange yesterday. As I said to the hon. Member for unemployment in the past two and a half years. That is Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) a few moments hardly surprising given the Budget decisions from which ago, we need to look carefully at how the measure is women have suffered the most. Does the right hon. implemented. I would be happy to hear further details Gentleman think it is tolerable for women to continue from the hon. Lady on that case. to bear the brunt of his Government’s failed economic policies? 13. [150811] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The Secretary of State will be aware that by far the largest single part of Michael Moore: I obviously do not accept the hon. the welfare budget goes on pensions, including the Lady’s analysis, but I commend her for campaigning state pension, pension credit and related pensioner long and hard on that issue, at which we need to benefits. What discussions has he had with the Scottish continue to look very hard. In the Budget we have Government about how pensions would work in a introduced proposals on child care which take us much separate Scotland? further than we have gone before. We are focusing on helping low-income families in Scotland by taking more Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman raises a hugely than 200,000 Scots out of tax altogether and reducing important issue which will be one of the big questions the income tax bill for 2 million people in Scotland. We that we ask in Scotland as we build up to the referendum will continue to take a range of measures to make sure next year. The security and the scale of the United that we recover from the awful inheritance of her Kingdom allows us the solidarity of common provision Government. across the United Kingdom, and we have the means to pay for that, even in difficult economic times, as we have had recently. We have not seen or heard anything from Cathy Jamieson: The unemployment figures in Scotland the Scottish National party or their supporters about have not been helped by the devastating news of the how they would do that in an independent Scotland. closure of a number of open-cast coal sites in the area covered by my constituency and that of my hon. Friend Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra There is a link between welfare and the use of food Osborne). As 348 people have lost their jobs in our area, banks, and I have raised the topic of food banks a I am sure the Minister will want to do everything number of times in this place through questions and possible to ensure that a potential buyer is able to come petitions and directly with the Prime Minister, which in. In that context and in the context of discussions have all seemed to go unanswered. The Secretary of following the Budget, will he make representations about State will have seen today’s report from the Trussell the track access charges and the increase due to come Trust revealing that the number of people using food into effect in 2016, which might put Scottish companies banks in Scotland has increased from fewer than 5,000 in the coal sector at a disadvantage? last year to more than 14,000 this year. Can he tell the House why he is letting this happen? Michael Moore: First, I join the hon. Lady in her concern about the future for the families affected by Michael Moore: My right hon. Friend the Under- that hugely significant administration of Scottish Resources Secretary and I have met people at food banks, and Group. She and others has been working tirelessly on recently I met the executive chairman of the Trussell the issue, and we will work with her and the Scottish Trust. As the chief executive would point out, as I am Government to see what we can do to support the sure he has to the hon. Gentleman, there is a range of families and communities affected. She raises the issue complex reasons going back many years for why people of track access, which I will be happy to discuss with need access to food banks. We continue to look at this her further. very carefully. I do not want people to have to go to food banks to get support. I am happy to continue that dialogue with the hon. Gentleman. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I congratulate the Government on cancelling Labour’s planned fuel Budget 2013 duty increase and introducing an island fuel duty discount in the Budget, which means that fuel duty on the 6. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What mainland will be 13p a litre cheaper than it would be assessment he has made of the effect of Budget 2013 under Labour and 18p a litre cheaper on the islands. A on Scotland. [150803] Labour Government would have destroyed the Argyll and Bute economy. I congratulate the Government on 7. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/ supporting the rural economy, unlike the Labour party, Co-op): What assessment he has made of the effect of which did not care and wanted to increase fuel duty by Budget 2013 on Scotland. [150804] 18p a litre. [Interruption.] 873 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 874

Michael Moore: Just in case Labour Members did the unemployment rate is 7.3%, which is below the rate not hear that, I repeat that the measures taken by our for the UK as a whole. We have some very long-term, Government have saved remote island communities, deep-seated problems that we inherited from her such as those in my hon. Friend’s constituency, 18p a Government that we continue to tackle. We have credible litre, and they have saved those on the mainland 13p a plans; where are hers? litre. That is a huge help to hard-pressed families the length and breadth of the country. Margaret Curran: Shockingly, the number of people Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) in Scotland who have been out of work for two years (LD): Many jobs in Scotland, especially in north-east has increased by 517% during the Secretary of State’s Scotland, depend on investment in the oil and gas time in office, which is far worse than across the UK as industry. Does the Secretary of State recognise the a whole. Is there anything specific he can offer those important role that the Budget has played in delivering people out of work long term in Scotland, or is he just tax certainty on decommissioning to unlock that vital content to be a Tory puppet repeating their lines on the investment? Budget?

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend always makes a Michael Moore: The hon. Lady knows, because she powerful case for the oil and gas industry, as does my and I visited the Shettleston jobcentre in her constituency, right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm that we are working hard to ensure that we provide Bruce). It is important to recognise their input in the support for people in very difficult circumstances in decisions about decommissioning, which give certainty Scotland. She picks just one statistic, which is important, and good news for investment, not only now but for and ignores all the rest. Some 70,000 more people are in decades to come. employment in Scotland over the past three years. We are determined to ensure that we get the economy back Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The International from the brink, where her party left it three years ago. Monetary Fund has cut the UK growth forecast and We continue to work hard to do that. questioned the Government’s austerity programme, and the UK’s credit rating has been downgraded yet again. Why should anyone believe a word that the Chancellor Scotland Referendum or the Financial Secretary to the Treasury say on the Budget, the currency, or for that matter anything else? 8. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government Michael Moore: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that on how many non-UK EU nationals will be eligible to nobody will be listening to him or his party when it participate in the Scottish independence referendum in comes to currency. I think that everybody recognises 2014. [150806] that the best deal for Scotland is to stay part of the United Kingdom and to continue to share the currency, unlike his party, which keeps changing its mind about The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland what might be the best option for Scotland. We know (David Mundell): On 15 October 2012, the UK and already what is best for Scotland: staying part of the Scottish Governments signed an agreement to ensure UK. that a legal, fair and decisive referendum on Scotland’s future can take place. It is for the Scottish Parliament to Angus Robertson: Everybody watching will have noted determine the franchise for the referendum. that the Secretary of State did not answer the question. The UK is the fourth most unequal country in the Mr Hollobone: Would it not be completely outrageous developed world, and today we learnt that the number were the Scottish Parliament to decide to use the local of people using food banks has doubled. Citizens Advice election franchise and therefore allow the possibility of Scotland has said that that increase illustrates “the the future constitutional make-up of the United Kingdom devastating impact” of his Government’s policy. Why to be decided by some several hundred thousand non-UK should people in Scotland put up with a Government EU nationals? they did not elect making those damaging decisions? Michael Moore: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s David Mundell: It will be for the Scottish Parliament analysis, which of course assumes that everything would to determine the franchise, but my hon. Friend is incorrect: be rosy in an independent Scotland, despite the hard the number of EU nationals able to vote on the Scottish realities we keep confronting him with. We are absolutely Parliament franchise is less than 2% of the total. determined to get the economy on a strong footing, invest in our future and support hard-pressed families. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Those who That is what the Budget was all about. defend our country should be allowed to take part in deciding its future. What steps will the Minister take to Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): This make sure that armed forces personnel serving abroad Government promised that they would get people back will be able to cast their votes in the referendum? to work. By how much has long-term unemployment in Scotland been reduced on the Secretary of State’s watch? David Mundell: This is an important matter. A service Michael Moore: I am interested to hear that the hon. declaration is already in place which allows armed Lady did not welcome the reduction in unemployment forces personnel with a link to Scotland to register at an announced last week. The number of people claiming address in Scotland. It will be for the Scottish Parliament, jobseeker’s allowance in Scotland is below 200,000 and if it so chooses, to put additional measures in place. 875 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 876

Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Does the Food and Rural Affairs and the National Farmers Minister agree that another difficulty with regard to the Union Scotland on CAP reform-related issues. The UK people who will be able to vote in this election is the Government are pressing hard for a new CAP that takes issue of 16 and 17-year-olds? Has he had any discussions account of the range of interests across the UK, including with the Scottish Government to see whether they have in Scotland. found a solution to the severe problems that that will cause, including putting 14 and 15-year-olds on the Miss McIntosh: I thank my right hon. Friend for his register? reply. Has he considered the impact of greening the CAP and, in particular, is he confident that there will be David Mundell: The Scottish Parliament will have the match funding from the Treasury? ability to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum. A draft Bill has been introduced for debate David Mundell: This is one of the many issues that in the Scottish Parliament, which is the appropriate have been discussed. I and the Secretary of State for place for those issues to be considered. Scotland continue to argue for Scotland’s interests in these matters. Corby Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Does the Minister 9. Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): What plans support the efforts of the Department for Environment, he has to visit Corby. [150807] Food and Rural Affairs to end direct payments out of pillar 1 of CAP? What effect does he think that would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland have on Scottish farming? (David Mundell): I would be very happy to visit Corby, where, as a Scot, I understand I would feel very much at David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting home, with plentiful supplies of the Daily Record, Irn-Bru the situation. Scotland will have flexibility to determine and my favourite Scotch pies. its own arrangements in relation to CAP reform.

Andy Sawford: I thank the Minister for his reply and Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): will take him up on his offer. Corby people are very With rising food prices and food poverty, has the Minister proud of their Scottish connections, but they are worried made any representations to colleagues about the need that, if the break up of the Union goes through, they to grow more food in Scotland? will no longer be able to move or trade freely or even to use the same currency. Will the Minister ensure that my David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman will know that constituents’ voices are heard? in his constituency, as in my own constituency, there is a strong view that we should grow more of our own food. David Mundell: Corby is a great example of the I encourage local farmers to do so. British family of nations and we should celebrate it. I urge the hon. Gentleman’s constituents to tell their Mr Speaker: What a timely reply from the Minister friends and families in Scotland to vote no in the that was. referendum.

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) rose— PRIME MINISTER Mr Speaker: I trust the hon. Gentleman is inquiring about visits to Corby. The Prime Minister was asked— Engagements Ian Murray: When the Minister visits Corby, will he get the train to Peterborough on the east coast main line? What discussions is the Secretary of State having Q1. [150813] Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, with his Cabinet colleagues to keep that line in public Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): If he will list his ownership? official engagements for Wednesday 24 April.

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is aware that the The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Before I list east coast main line is going to return to the franchise my engagements, I am sure that the whole House will arrangements. want to join me in paying tribute to Lance Corporal Jamie Jonathan Webb of 1st Battalion the Mercian Common Agricultural Policy Regiment, who died in Afghanistan on Tuesday 26 March. He was described as 10. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): “an outstanding professional; bright, engaging and hugely talented.” What discussions he has had on the effects of common We must pay tribute to his heroic service to our country. agricultural policy reform in Scotland. [150808] This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland shall have further such meetings later today. (David Mundell): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions on CAP reform Mr McCann: The whole House will wish to associate with a range of industry stakeholders in Scotland. On itself with the Prime Minister’s tribute to Lance Corporal 27 March, we facilitated a meeting between my right Jamie Webb. We pass on our deepest condolences to his hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, family and friends. 877 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 878

Labour market statistics show that, even after the tax occasions on which it was breached in the last year— changes, real earnings have dropped by £1,700 since the 15 times—is lower than the 23 times that it was breached last general election. Knowing that hard-working families when he was in power in 2008. Those are the facts. across our country are being hit hard in their pockets, The other point that I would make to the right hon. does the Prime Minister want to show any remorse, or Gentleman is that there is one part of the country where indeed apologise, for giving millionaires, including himself, Labour has been in charge of the NHS for the past a tax cut? three years. That is in Wales, where no A and E target has been hit since 2009. Perhaps he will apologise for The Prime Minister: The people who should be that. apologising are those in the party that created the mess in the first place. We will ask the richest in our country Edward Miliband: Let me give the Prime Minister the to pay more in every year of this Parliament than they figures. In 2009-10, 340,000 people waited longer than paid in any year of the last Parliament. That is the four hours in A and E. Last year, it was 888,000 people. truth. If he wants to talk about records, the Labour Government left office with higher patient satisfaction than ever Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): My mother, before in the NHS, lower waiting lists than ever before Maud, was very sad about the death of Baroness Thatcher, in the NHS and more doctors and nurses than ever but she was delighted that my right hon. Friend committed before in the NHS. our party to a referendum on our relationship with the Part of the problem is that the Prime Minister’s European Union. Given that my mother will be 101 replacement for the NHS Direct service is in total next Thursday, she wondered whether the referendum chaos. He now has a patchwork, fragmented service in could be brought forward. which, over Easter, 40% of calls were abandoned because they were not answered. What is he going to do about The Prime Minister: I send my fond regards to my it? hon. Friend’s mum and wish her a long, happy and healthy life. I remind her that if she votes Conservative The Prime Minister: If anyone wants a reminder of in 2015, she will have the in/out referendum that the Labour’s record on the NHS, they only have to read the country deserves. report into the Stafford hospital. The right hon. Gentleman mentions the number of Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): First, I people waiting a long time for NHS operations. That join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Lance number has come down since this Government came to Corporal Jamie Jonathan Webb of 1st Battalion the office. The fact that he cannot ignore is that since this Mercian Regiment. He showed the utmost courage and Government came to office, there are 1 million more bravery, and the thoughts of the whole House are with people walking into A and E and half a million more his family and friends. people having in-patient treatments. The fact is that People are hearing today about patients waiting on waiting times are stable or down, waiting lists are down trolleys in A and E, in some cases for more than 12 and the NHS is performing better under this Government hours. We have even heard of one hospital pitching a than it ever did under Labour. treatment tent outside its premises. What does the Prime Minister have to say to those patients who are waiting Edward Miliband: Let me just say that what happened hour upon hour in A and E? at Stafford was terrible, and both of us talked about that on the day, but what a disgraceful slur on the The Prime Minister: First of all, this Government transformation of the NHS that took place after 1997 believe in our NHS and are expanding funding in our and the doctors and nurses who made that happen. NHS. We will not take the advice of the Labour party, The main reason why the Prime Minister is failing to which thought that the increases in spending on the meet his A and E target month after month is that he NHS were irresponsible. That is its view. We will go on decided to take £3 billion away from the front line in a investing in our NHS. With 1 million extra patients top-down reorganisation that nobody wanted and nobody visiting A and E every year, we need to continue hitting voted for. As a result, there are 4,500 fewer nurses than the important targets that we have so that people are when he came to power. Can he explain how it is treated promptly. helping care in the NHS to be giving nurses their P45s?

Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister obviously does The Prime Minister: First of all, the right hon. Gentleman not realise that he is singularly failing to meet the is clearly in complete denial about what happened to targets that he has set himself. The number of people the NHS under Labour. Let me just remind him what waiting more than four hours in A and E is nearly three his spending plans are. His shadow Health Secretary times higher than when he came to office. First he was asked, downgraded the A and E target. Now he is not even “does he stand by his comment that it is irresponsible to increase hitting it. As he approaches his third anniversary as NHS spending?”—[Official Report, 12 December 2012; Vol. 555, Prime Minister, he needs to explain why an A and E c. 332.] crisis is happening on his watch. He said, “Yes, I do.” That is Labour’s official policy—to cut spending on the NHS, just like it is cutting spending The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman on the NHS in Wales, where waiting times are up, the figures. For the whole of last year, we met the target waiting lists are up and quality is down. That is what is for A and E attendance. That is the fact. The number of happening in the NHS under Labour. 879 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 880

The Leader of the Opposition also mentions what we between the two parties is that we believe in cutting our have done in terms of reorganisation. That reorganisation deficit, whereas it is their official policy to put it up. If will see £4.5 billion extra put into the front line compared they did that, there would be higher interest rates, more with the cuts from Labour. businesses going bust and harder times for home owners. That is what Labour offers. Edward Miliband: Let me just say to the Prime Minister that he is the guy who cut NHS spending when he came Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The Government into office and was told off by the head of the UK are absolutely right to prioritise the combating of sexual Statistics Authority for not being straight with people violence in conflict in their chairmanship of the G8, but about it. the Prime Minister would have more credibility on the A and E is the barometer of the NHS, and this Prime subject if he did not accept hundreds of thousands of Minister might be totally out of touch, but that barometer pounds from, and have private dinners at Downing is telling us that it is a system in distress. According to street with, Mr Ian Taylor. Mr Taylor’s company, Vitol, the Care Quality Commission, one in 10 hospitals do has admitted having dealings with the notorious Serb not have adequate staffing levels, and during the winter war criminal Arkan, who was indicted for every hospital was at some point operating beyond the “wilfully causing great suffering, cruel treatment, murder, wilful recommended safe level of bed occupancy. Hospitals killing, rape, other inhumane acts.” are full to bursting. He is the Prime Minister. What is he Will the Prime Minister stop hosting Mr Taylor at going to do about it? Downing street and give the money back?

The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman’s answer The Prime Minister: First, let me thank the hon. is to cut NHS spending, whereas we are investing in it. Gentleman for what he says about my right hon. Friend Let me give him some simple facts about what has the Foreign Secretary’s very commendable efforts to happened to the NHS under this Government: 6,000 make sure that rape and sexual violence are no longer more doctors; 7,000 fewer managers; 1 million more used as weapons of war and conflict. The Government treated in A and E; half a million more day cases; are putting a huge impetus behind that through the G8. mixed-sex wards, commonplace under Labour, virtually However, I have to say that I think it is totally regrettable abolished; infection rates in our NHS at record low that the hon. Gentleman tries to play some sort of levels; and, as I said, waiting times for in-patients down political card in the rest of what he said. and waiting times for out-patients stable—all of that happening under this coalition Government, a far better record than he could boast. Q3. [150815] Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Does the Prime Minister agree that helping people who want to work hard is the right thing to do, that taking them Edward Miliband: People up and down the country out of tax altogether is the right thing to do, and that will have heard that this is a Prime Minister with no making work pay is the right thing to do—instead of answer for the crisis in our A and E services across the insulting them, as some politicians have done by calling country. There is a crisis in A and E, and it is no them trash? surprise: he has cut the number of nurses; his NHS helpline is in crisis; and he is wasting billions of pounds on a top-down reorganisation that he promised would The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely not happen. The facts speak for themselves: the NHS is right. It is this Government who are on the side of not safe in his hands. hard-working families: we have kept interest rates low; we have frozen the council tax; we have cut income tax The Prime Minister: Let us examine the NHS in for 24 million people; we have taken more than 2 million Labour’s hands in Wales. Here are the figures. Is the people out of income tax altogether; and our welfare NHS budget being increased? No, it is being cut by 8% reforms—sadly, not supported by the Opposition—are by Labour. The last time the urgent cancer care treatment making sure that work always pays. target was met in Wales was 2008. The last time A and E targets were met was 2009. The Welsh ambulance service Q4. [150816] Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and has missed its call-out target for the last 10 months. Sunderland West) (Lab): Today’s Daily Telegraph And, of course, there is no cancer drugs fund. That is reports that 1 million people have been declared fit for what you get under Labour: cuts to our NHS and work by the Department for Work and Pensions. Does longer waiting lists—and all the problems we saw at the that include people like my constituent, Michael Stafford hospital will be repeated over again. Moore, who, despite multiple illnesses and disability, was declared fit for work in July 2011? Mr Speaker, Q2. [150814] James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): Michael died in February this year, aged just 56. Yesterday, figures showed that this Government had reduced the deficit by a third. Does the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: Obviously, I am very sorry, on agree that to borrow and spend more, which the behalf of the whole House, about the loss of the hon. shadow Chancellor has confirmed will be Labour’s Lady’s constituent, but I am sure that she—and, indeed, policy in 2015, would risk squandering that progress? I would have thought everyone in this House—would accept that it is necessary to have a system to check who The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely is available for work, and who is able to work and who is right. We are operating in very tough times, but we have not. The whole point of the employment and support got the deficit down by a third, there are 1.25 million allowance programme is that we can judge those people extra private sector jobs, and we have seen a record who can work but who need extra help and those who creation of new businesses in our country. The differences cannot work, who should always be looked after. I find 881 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 882 it extraordinary that heads are shaking among Labour involving British citizens in this country being put into Members; I thought it was the Labour party, not the forced labour. It is an excellent exhibition and there is welfare party. more for the Government to do.

Q5. [150817] Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): Q7. [150819] Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I It is essential that this Government continue with wonder whether the Prime Minister would be kind much-needed welfare reform because, coupled with enough to tell the House how much he will benefit the tremendous increase in private sector jobs of personally from the scrapping of the 50p tax rate? 1.25 million, it is having a real effect in Hastings and The Prime Minister: As I have said before, I will pay Rye, with unemployment falling from 7.4% to 6.8%. every appropriate tax, but like everybody else, every Could I urge the Prime Minister to stay on this track single taxpayer in this country is benefiting from the and make the difficult decisions when he has to for the rise in the personal allowance that we have put in place. good of this country, and not to listen to the voices Everyone can benefit from a freeze in the council tax. opposite, which have only one thing to suggest: borrow, Everyone can benefit from what we have done on fuel borrow, borrow? duty—and everyone would pay the price of another Labour Government. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The fact is that since the election, the number of Q8. [150820] James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend people on out-of-work benefits has fallen by 270,000. It East) (Con): The Government’s cap on benefits has is essential that we continue with programmes to boost already incentivised 8,000 people back into work. Does enterprise, but also to make work pay. We should not this not demonstrate how important welfare reform is, listen to the Opposition on issues such as the benefit getting people back to work and making work pay—a cap, when the shadow Chancellor was on the radio last policy opposed by the Opposition? week saying that £26,000 was an unfair cap. People across this country will be incredulous that that is the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Labour position, but it is. right. The measures on welfare reform we are taking, such as the benefit cap, the 1% increase, making sure Q6. [150818] Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): that people are available for work and making sure that Bankers’ bonuses at £15 billion; executive boardroom people cannot get jobseeker’s allowance unless they pay up by 27%; tax cuts for millionaires; tax cuts for take proper steps to find a job, are all about fairness in wealthy corporations—and the ordinary members of our country and making work pay. What is interesting the public have got to pay for it. When is the Prime is that every single one of those welfare changes—even Minister going to represent all the people in the the proposal to stop paying housing benefit of, sometimes, country and not just his privileged chums? up to £100,000 to a single family—has one thing in common: they have been opposed by the Labour party. The Prime Minister: I will tell the hon. Gentleman what this Government have done. We have taken 2 million Q9. [150821] Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) of the lowest-paid people out of income tax altogether. (Lab): On the subject of jobs, last week 21 Tory We have delivered a tax cut for 24 million people. We MEPs voted against the EU emissions trading have frozen the fuel duty. We are freezing the council scheme, meaning that British industry will face much tax up and down the country, and if people want to higher energy prices than its European competitors, make an impact, they should vote Conservative on threatening jobs and investment. When will the Prime 2 May to make sure they keep their council tax down. Minister get a grip of his party and stand up for British business? Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): May I The Prime Minister: I thought the hon. Gentleman congratulate the Prime Minister on his support for the might start by thanking the Chancellor for the move exhibition on modern slavery in the Upper Waiting taken in the Budget to help very important businesses in Hall? Two hundred years after it was abolished, slavery— his constituency with excessive energy costs, but clearly modern slavery—continues throughout the United the milk of human kindness is running a bit thinly with Kingdom. It is about the buying and selling of people, him. I have to say, if we are going to get into lectures and it is the second most lucrative crime in the world. about MEPs, perhaps he could get his to stop voting Can he confirm that his Government will continue to against the British rebate. engage with this issue? Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): The The Prime Minister: I am very grateful for what my Prime Minister will be aware that last week, three hon. Friend says. This is an immensely serious issue and people in Cumbria were arrested for apparently blowing I pay tribute to the all-party group in the House of the whistle in the public interest over the actions of the Commons and the House of Lords. I also pay tribute to police commissioner. Does he agree that that is a threat Anthony Steen, who has campaigned long and hard on to freedom of speech and an outrage in a democratic this issue. Anyone who thinks that slavery was effectively society, and will he intervene to ensure there is an abolished in 1807 has got another think coming. I independent investigation? would urge Members, if they have not seen this excellent exhibition in that chamber in the House of Commons, The Prime Minister: I will look carefully at that case. to go and see it, and see all the different ways that In general we should support whistleblowers and what people can be trapped into slavery. It is notable that it is they do to help improve the provision of public services, not just people who are being trafficked from eastern and I will have a look at this case and get back to the Europe or elsewhere. There are examples of slavery hon. Gentleman. 883 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 884

Q10. [150822] Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): The have for those stationed around RAF Brize Norton, the wilful neglect of residents in their care homes is a biggest airbase in the country. I urge all local authorities crime, but too often the victims and their families do to look at this issue. The armed forces covenant is a real not get justice. Time and again we have seen injury, breakthrough for our country and a way in which we abuse and sometimes death. Given that this is the can all show respect for what our armed forces and their Prime Minister’s third anniversary, when will we have a families do. I also commend the fact that the Government law that is fit for purpose? are using the LIBOR fines to help fund some powerful elements of the armed forces covenant. It means that The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right to those people who behaved badly in our economy—some raise that issue. Over the past few years we have seen of the banks—are paying for some of those who behave some shocking examples, not just of malpractice but—let the best. us be frank—of crime taking place in our care homes, and a number of investigations are under way. One of Q12. [150824] Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) the most important things we can do is ensure that the (SDLP): Will the Prime Minister explain the eleventh- Care Quality Commission is up to the task of investigating hour postponement of universal credit pilots, and is it those homes properly and has robust structures in place. the beginning of the unravelling of his unworkable and That was not what we found when we came to office. In unfair welfare reform proposals? terms of ensuring that criminal law is available, it is already available and when there are bad examples, the police and prosecuting authorities can intervene and The Prime Minister: I hate to correct the hon. Lady, they should do so. but the pilots are going ahead, starting in parts of north-west England. I think it is important to have Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) proper pilots and proper evaluation of pilots. We want (Con): Sixty-two people have died using DNP, a highly to learn the lesson of some of the failures of the tax toxic herbicide that is banned for use as a slimming credit system, which was brought in with a big bang but drug but easily available online alongside other dubious ended up with big disaster. It is right that we are slimming products. What commitment can my right piloting, and as the Secretary of State said, the programme hon. Friend give that he will work across Government is on target and on budget. to ensure that that trade is stopped, and in so doing, help to prevent the deaths of more young people? Q13. [150825] Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Council tax payers in Essex paid £5,000 for the then The Prime Minister: Like many people, this morning leader of the county council and his cronies to attend I read about the tragic case of the girl who died from the Conservative party conference. That was one of taking this substance, and one can only think of the hundreds of dodgy transactions using council credit heartache that her family, and other families, go through cards spread over eight years, totalling around when such things happen. I will look carefully at what £500,000 at an average of more than £1,000 a week, my hon. Friend says. This is not an easy issue because which include 60-plus overseas visits to Australia and the substance is banned as a slimming drug but, as I Vietnam, among other places. Does the Prime Minister understand it, is legal as a herbicide. As she says, we agree that such extravagant misuse of public money must look carefully across Government at what more should be the subject of an independent inquiry? we can do to warn people about these things. The Prime Minister: It is obviously important that all Q11. [150823] Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): such issues are properly looked into, but I am sorry to Was the Prime Minister consulted on the decision to disappoint my hon. Friend. We are frequently in agreement, reject the appointment of Baroness Tanni Grey- but on this issue, I believe that, if people in Essex want Thompson to the chair of Sport England? good value for money, it is important that they back the Conservatives. The Prime Minister: These decisions are, quite rightly, made by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and I think she has reached a very good decision. Q14. [150826] Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): The Prime Minister believes that food banks are Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The Government’s a good example of the big society. Last year, 7,400 commitment to the armed forces covenant is something people across Stoke-on-Trent, including 2,600 children, that Conservative Members are immensely proud of. needed food banks just to stop them from starving. The Prime Minister will also be aware of the community From this week, owing to his welfare changes, food covenant, launched by the British Legion, to which 300 banks have been forced to restrict food to families with local authorities have signed up, although sadly not children and people over the age of 65. Is it not true Enfield council in my constituency or another 132 that the Prime Minister has failed Britain, and that his authorities. Will the Prime Minister join me in urging big society is overwhelmed? those councils to sign the covenant locally and help support work across the constituency, particularly before The Prime Minister: I am disappointed in what the Armed Forces day? hon. Gentleman says, because in 2003, the previous Government gave the Trussell Trust, the organisation The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend behind Britain’s food banks, a golden jubilee award for for raising that issue. My local authority in Oxfordshire voluntary service. The right hon. Member for Sheffield, was one of the first to sign up to the community Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), whom I covenant, with all the responsibilities that we feel we am glad to see in his place, said that the Trussell Trust’s 885 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 886

“outstanding voluntary activity has enhanced and improved the report on bees, other pollinators and pesticides? On quality of life and opportunity for others in the community.”—[Official Monday next week, will he give his Government’s backing Report, 4 June 2003; Vol. 406, c. 10WS.] to the European Commission’s proposed moratorium Of course, these are difficult times—food bank use on the use of three neonicotinoids? went up 10 times under Labour—but I think we should praise people who play a role in our society rather than The Prime Minister: I will look very carefully at what sneer at them. the hon. Lady says. I am the life patron of the Oxfordshire Beekeepers’ Association. I think I have been neglecting 15. [150827] John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): The chief my duties in not being able to give her a better answer executive of Cumbria county council is to leave the today, but I know how important this issue is. If we do authority with an agreed package. I believe that the not look after our bee populations, very serious package will be substantial, and that it will run into consequences will follow. hundreds of thousands of pounds. Does the Prime Minister agree that that and similar arrangements are Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Today sees the difficult for the public to accept, and that they are publication of the all-party cycling group’s report “Get certainly not a good use of taxpayers’ money? Britain Cycling”, which calls for leadership from the very top on this issue. Will the Prime Minister look at The Prime Minister: I agree with what my hon. Friend the report, make sure that he produces a cross-departmental says. We now require councils to publish their pay action plan and give his personal commitment and policies, and councils should vote on those deals so that leadership to get Britain cycling? [Interruption.] they can vote against excessive ones. That change has happened under this Government, but I urge all councils, Mr Speaker: Order. Members on both sides are very of whatever political persuasion, to look at what they discourteous to the good doctor. I cannot for the life of can do to share chief executives and finance directors, me fathom why there are groans whenever I call the and to combine their back-office costs. Everybody knows good doctor, but it is very unsatisfactory. that public spending reductions would have to be made whoever is in Government. Let us make them by taking The Prime Minister: I do not always agree with what it out of the back office rather than the front line. the hon. Gentleman says, but on this occasion he is absolutely right and the House should heed what he Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): says: we should be doing much more to encourage Is the Prime Minister aware that Scottish Coal went cycling. The report has many good points. I commend into liquidation last weekend, and that 600 hard-working what the Mayor of London has done in London to people in Scotland have lost their jobs, the majority of promote cycling, and I hope local authorities can follow which are in my constituency? The Tories closed the his lead in making sure that we do more. deep mines during the 1980s. Will the Prime Minister stand behind the open cast industry today, or will it just be the same old Tories? Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Can the Prime Minister tell the House whether the deep shade of red The Prime Minister: I am happy to look at what the he turned when asked by my hon. Friend the Member hon. Lady says. We want to support all our industries in for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) whether he had been Britain, including the coal industry, whether in Scotland consulted on the appointment of Tanni Grey-Thompson or in England. Obviously, since the election, the number was actually in place of the answer “Yes”? of people in work in Scotland has gone up, but we need to see that go further and faster. I am happy to look at The Prime Minister: We have an excellent new head the particular industrial example she gives. of both Sport England and UK Sport—that is what matters. These are decisions for the Secretary of State, Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): On Monday, and it is absolutely right that she takes them. my right hon. Friend came to Derbyshire to support our council candidates for the next election, but at the Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) same time, he visited a manufacturing company. Does (Con): Does the Prime Minister agree that one does not he agree that getting manufacturing companies such as solve a debt crisis by borrowing more, and that for the the ones in my constituency to continue to export and Opposition to have any credibility they need to acknowledge to expand their exports is our best way out of recession? the mess they made, apologise to my constituents, and just say sorry? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Duresta, the furniture manufacturer that I visited, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely has seen its sales increase by almost 20% over the past right. On the Government Benches, we know we have to year. It is going into new export markets, investing in get borrowing down. Frankly, in the past week what we apprenticeships and doing all of the things the Government have seen is the right hon. Member for Doncaster are backing and supporting. We want to back many North (Edward Miliband) in his true colours: too weak more firms to do exactly that. Her wider point is also to stand up to the shadow Chancellor on the deficit, too right: people in Derbyshire who want another year of a weak to stand up to his Back Benchers on welfare, and council tax freeze need to vote very carefully on 2 May. too weak to stand up to the trade unions on just about anything. It was a week in which he said goodbye to Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Will David Miliband and hello to George Galloway. No the Prime Minister give careful consideration to the wonder Tony Blair said that they are fellow travellers, recommendations of the Environmental Audit Committee not leaders. He was absolutely right. 887 24 APRIL 2013 Abu Qatada 888

Abu Qatada the agreement does not require any changes to our domestic law, but it must be placed before both Houses Mr Speaker: I call Secretary Theresa May. The right for 21 sitting days before it is ratified. So I can confirm hon. Lady has wisely waited for calm. I hope that that is that the text of the treaty has been laid before both what we now have. Houses today, and, depending on the date of Parliament’s prorogation, we expect the 21 days to be completed 12.32 pm before the end of June. Under Jordanian law, once ratified the provisions of the treaty will take primacy The Secretary of State for the Home Department over existing Jordanian law in cases such as Qatada’s. (Mrs Theresa May): With permission, Mr Speaker, I We therefore believe that the treaty will deliver the would like to make a statement on the case of Abu protections required by SIAC to secure Qatada’s Qatada. deportation. As the whole House will know, successive Governments I believe that the treaty we have agreed with Jordan, have sought the deportation of this dangerous man once ratified by both Parliaments, will finally make since 2001. The prospect of his deportation now depends possible the deportation of Abu Qatada, but as I have on one very narrow issue: the question of whether warned the House before, even when the treaty is fully evidence obtained through the mistreatment of others ratified, it will not mean that Qatada will be on a plane might be used against him in his home country of to Jordan within days. We will be able to issue a new Jordan. In January last year, the European Court of deportation decision, but Qatada will still have legal Human Rights ruled that there was indeed such a risk, appeals available to him, and it will therefore be up to and therefore blocked his deportation. Following that the courts to make the final decision. That legal process ruling, the British Government sought from the Jordanian may well still take many months, but in the meantime I Government further information and assurances not believe that Qatada should remain behind bars. just in relation to the treatment of Qatada himself, but Lastly, I would like to say this: as any sane observer about the quality of the legal processes that would be of this case will conclude, it is absurd for the deportation followed throughout his trial. of a suspected foreign terrorist to take so many years Although the Special Immigration Appeals Commission and cost the taxpayer so much money. That is why we noted that the Jordanian Government need to make sense of our human rights laws and “will do everything within their power to ensure that a retrial is remove the many layers of appeals available to foreign fair”, nationals we want to deport. In the meantime, however, in November last year it ruled that there was still a risk the Government are doing everything they can to deport that a trial in Jordan would breach Qatada’s rights Abu Qatada to Jordan. I believe that this treaty gives us under article 6 of the European convention. Since then, every chance of succeeding in that aim, so I commend the Government have pursued a twin strategy: first, to this statement to the House. appeal SIAC’s decision; and secondly to work with the Jordanian Government to seek further assurances to 12.38 pm convince the courts that Qatada would indeed receive a Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) fair trial. I want to take each of those approaches in (Lab): I thank the Home Secretary for advance sight of turn. her statement. First, I shall deal with the Government’s appeal. On The Home Secretary and the courts have agreed that 27 March, the Court of Appeal confirmed SIAC’s Abu Qatada is a dangerous man who puts security in interpretation of the law and ruled that we could not this country at risk, and the House is united in wanting deport Abu Qatada to Jordan under present conditions. him deported to stand fair trial in Jordan so that justice Yesterday, the Court of Appeal refused the Government’s can be done and in wanting him to remain in prison in application to appeal that decision to the Supreme the meantime. I welcome the work that she continues to Court. The Government disagree with that ruling, and I do to get Abu Qatada deported and the further assurances can tell the House that we will now seek permission to that she has sought from Jordan, although she will appeal from the Supreme Court itself. know that the history of Home Office problems in this Secondly, I can tell the House that I have signed a area means that serious questions remain. comprehensive mutual legal assistance agreement with The Home Secretary referred to the European Court Jordan. This agreement is fully reciprocal, offers considerable judgment of January 2012, which she has previously advantages to both countries and reflects our joint said she strongly disagrees with. Once that passed, she commitment to tackling international crime. It covers had two choices: to appeal against its conclusions about assistance in obtaining evidence for the investigation the level of proof that the British Government needed and prosecution of crimes in either country and provides to provide before Abu Qatada could be deported or to a framework for assistance in the restraint and confiscation provide enough evidence from Jordan that she could of the proceeds of crime. It also includes a number of meet that level of proof. So far, the Home Office has not fair trial guarantees that would apply to anyone being managed to do either. I welcome this further work with deported from either country.I believe that these guarantees Jordan, but the question for the House and the Court will provide the courts with the assurance that Qatada will be whether it meets the specific test that the Court will not face evidence that might have been obtained by has set. torture in a re-trial in Jordan. The Special Immigration Appeals Commission ruled Before the agreement can come into force and become six months ago: a formal treaty, it must be ratified by both countries, “Until and unless a change is made to the…Code of Criminal and the Jordanian Government will be laying the draft Procedure and/or authoritative rulings are made by the Court of treaty before its Parliament shortly.In the United Kingdom, Cassation or Constitutional Court which establish that statements 889 Abu Qatada24 APRIL 2013 Abu Qatada 890

[Yvette Cooper] overstated the evidence, overstated her legal position, and overstated her legal strategy, which has not worked. made to a public prosecutor by accomplices who are no longer None of us wants that to happen again. subject to criminal proceedings cannot be admitted probatively against a returning fugitive and/or that it is for the prosecutor to Mrs May: May I say in response to the shadow Home prove to a high standard that the statements were not procured by torture, that real risk will remain.” Secretary’s first question that she should perhaps listen to what she herself said in her statement? She said that Will the Home Secretary tell us more about how the SIAC had suggested that there should be a change to a new mutual legal assistance agreement will meet those number of aspects of Jordanian law and/or a change to tests? The treaty refers to the obligation on the prosecution, the obligations on the prosecutor. It is such a change but will she explain whether and how this will be an to the obligations on the prosecutor that is in the equivalent of a change to the code of criminal procedure, mutual legal assistance agreement that I have signed and whether it will supersede any ruling made by the with Jordan and that has been laid before both Houses court of cassation or the constitutional court? We wish of Parliament, and that will therefore deal with that the Home Secretary well with the mutual legal assistance particular issue. treaty, and we hope that it will work. We will support it in the House, and suggest that we hold a debate and a The right hon. Lady asked about the failure to appeal vote in the Commons to demonstrate the strength of to the European Court. She has raised that issue before support that exists across the House. and I have answered her before. She seems to think that I should have appealed to the Grand Chamber of the Let me ask the Home Secretary more about her European Court, but that would have jeopardised approach to the European Court. Everyone agrees that the Government’s wider deportation with assurances the European Courts have taken way too long over this, programme and risked the blockage of many other as did the British courts—that has rightly been seen as a deportation cases. She should also look at what she has source of frustration for Home Secretaries—but will previously said on this issue. What she is saying today she tell us again why she chose, in January 2012, not to is not what she was saying last year. In this House, on appeal against the judgment that she said she disagreed 17 April last year, she said of me: with? I ask her again to show shadow Ministers and the “I welcome the assurances that she has obtained from Jordan. relevant Select Committee Chairs, on Privy Council Previous agreements were in place, but she was right to pursue terms, the legal advice on why she did not appeal. Until further assurances.” she does so, doubts will remain about her legal strategy If she thought we should have appealed to the Grand and about the credibility of her criticism of the European Chamber, why did she think that we needed to pursue Court. those assurances? If that is not clear, she should also Will the Home Secretary also tell us whether she is remember what else she said: planning to withdraw temporarily from the European “We understand, too, that the Home Secretary believes it is too convention on human rights, as has been suggested in risky to appeal to the Grand Chamber. I understand she would briefings from No. 10 to the media, and how she would have had legal advice on that, and I do not want her to pursue an justify such a decision when she has chosen not to unwise and risky process”. appeal against the European Court’s decisions? The right hon. Lady asked about the relationship The Home Secretary must forgive us for being cautious with the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. about her claims and assurances today when some of The House will know that it is my clear view that we her previous promises on this matter have been overblown. need to fix that relationship and that all options, including Twelve months ago, we remember the media being leaving the convention altogether, should be on the invited to Abu Qatada’s arrest as she told the House table. The Prime Minister is looking at all options, and that that is the only sensible thing to do. “today Qatada has been arrested and the deportation is under There are a number of questions for the right hon. way”.—[Official Report, 17 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 173.] Lady. She talked about why this did not happen sooner, and we have heard all sorts of claims from the shadow However, within 24 hours, the process had stalled. We Home Secretary and the shadow Immigration Minister also remember her saying last year: about what I have said. A year ago, I said in this House: “The Government are clear that Qatada has no right to refer “hon. Members must be aware that” the case to the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights, since the three-month deadline to do so lapsed at what I was announcing at that time midnight on Monday.”—[Official Report, 19 April 2012; Vol. 543, “does not necessarily mean that he”— c. 507.] Abu Qatada— However, the European Court said that the request had “will be on a plane to Jordan within days. There is still a potential been submitted within the three-month time limit. And avenue of appeal to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission 12 months ago, she also told us: court, and beyond. That appeal process could take many months”.— “I believe that the assurances and the information that we have [Official Report, 17 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 175-6.] gathered will mean that we can soon put Qatada on a plane and I have to tell the right hon. Lady that simply repeating get him out of our country for good.”—[Official Report, 17 April something and wanting it to be true does not make it 2012; Vol. 543, c. 175.] true; she should look at what was actually said here. Today, however, we are back to a legal square one again, Finally, the right hon. Lady herself has to answer going through the deportation process. some questions. Does she support what the Government We want to work with the Home Secretary to make have done? [Interruption.] The right hon. Lady says she the process work, so that Abu Qatada can be deported wants a vote. I am asking her very clearly whether she as soon as possible. In the past, however, she has believes that the Government have taken the right course 891 Abu Qatada24 APRIL 2013 Abu Qatada 892 of action in what we have done. Beyond that, will the our prosecuting Abu Qatada here in the United Kingdom. Opposition support what we want to do, which is to The Metropolitan police are investigating the issue of strip out appeal rights for foreign nationals, or not? Will the breach of bail conditions, and the right hon. Gentleman we have a cross-party agreement that we need to deal would not expect me to comment on an ongoing police with the issue of the length of time deportations take? investigation. We could do that by taking out layers of appeal. Perhaps even more significantly, will the Opposition agree with Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The Home us that we need to sort out our human rights laws, Secretary has rightly said that Abu Qatada is a dangerous which were passed by their Government? man who should remain behind bars. How confident is This mutual legal assistance agreement with Jordan she that the bail conditions can be sustained for a has clauses within it that, as I say, address the issue lengthy period, given that the appeals will no doubt raised by the SIAC court and the European Court continue for many months? If she is not able to sustain about Abu Qatada. I hope that the right hon. Lady will them—because they will be challenged by Abu Qatada’s support the Government—not just on this case, but in team—does she intend to impose a terrorism prevention sorting out our human rights laws and our processes of and investigation measure on him, involving the maximum deportation. restrictions, so that we can ensure that he is not free to walk the streets of this country? Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Given the way in which successive British Governments have been Mrs May: Given her experience, the right hon. Lady made to look impotent by the European convention will know that we do not comment publicly on whether and regime, when will my right hon. Friend bring or not we intend to impose TPIMs on individuals. If an proposals before this House to ensure that the will of application for bail is made, the Home Office will Parliament and of the overwhelming majority of the vigorously defend its belief, and my belief, that Abu British people can be upheld, common sense applied Qatada should remain behind bars. and justice delivered in these difficult cases? Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): What is Mrs May: My right hon. Friend will have to wait and the worst thing that could happen to us if we did just see what we intend and are able to bring to this House. I put Abu Qatada on a plane? If it is a fine or incurring have already indicated that I intend to address some of the displeasure of the European Court of Human Rights, these issues in a new immigration Bill if parliamentary would it not be best for us to withdraw temporarily, put time allows for it. him on a plane, and then rejoin?

Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) Mrs May: My hon. Friend and others have been (Lab): Abu Qatada’s legal team have used the Human raising the possibility of our simply defying our international Rights Act 1998 to suggest that if extradition took legal obligations and putting Abu Qatada on a plane place, evidence gained through torture would be used in for some time. My answer to her today is the same as a trial against him. Surely his team would have more the answer that I have given to others in the past: I success if it changed tack and argued that Abu Qatada believe that the UK Government should abide by the might commit suicide, in which case they would have rule of law. the support of the Home Secretary. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): This has turned into Mrs May: I do not think that that intervention was a political and judicial farce. The Home Secretary has worthy of the right hon. Gentleman. spent a huge amount of time on the issue, and she must feel very let down by the Home Office silks who kept Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) telling her that there was enough evidence to remove (LD): I support the Home Secretary’s attempts to deport Abu Qatada. While of course I welcome the treaty that Abu Qatada and her respect for the courts, even though she has signed, it does seem extraordinary that we have Governments sometimes clearly disagree with their conducted a treaty with a foreign Government just to decisions. Given that agreement with Jordan could be a remove one individual. Is she satisfied that that will be game changer—in this case and in others—is there an enough, or does she think that it will be necessary for intention to seek similar agreements with other countries her to go to Jordan to deal with any other outstanding where these issues arise? Will she update us on her points? Can she also assure us that if the Court wants to intention to look again at prosecuting Abu Qatada in hear from the Jordanian Government as an amicus this country, which I know she was investigating at the curiae, the Jordanian Government will be able to put end of last year? representations directly to it?

Mrs May: On the first issue, we have a number of Mrs May: I have made it clear at every stage that we deportation with assurances agreements that we have should continue to talk to the Jordanian Government, signed with other countries, and deportations have been and should do our utmost to ensure that we can achieve possible under them. Mutual legal assistance agreements what is wanted by every Member in the Chamber, and, I also exist with a number of other countries. A very believe, by all members of the public, namely the particular point has been raised by the courts in respect deportation of Abu Qatada. We have been clear about of one case, but we will obviously look at the wider our twin-track approach, and we continue that approach. implications. I must challenge the right hon. Gentleman on one On the right hon. Gentleman’s second point, as he point. As I said, we have signed a wide-ranging mutual will know, we have always made it clear that we will legal assurance agreement with the Jordanian Government, continue to consider whether there is any prospect of which will affect the deportations of individuals in both 893 Abu Qatada24 APRIL 2013 Abu Qatada 894

[Mrs May] Mrs May: My hon. Friend and I have had a number of discussions and question-and-answer sessions relating directions regardless of whether or not they are Abu to this issue, not least in the Home Affairs Committee Qatada. It so happens that within that agreement are last week. At the heart of the point that he has raised fair trial guarantees that could be applied in the case of today is the issue of the relationship between Britain Abu Qatada, but the agreement itself is a wider document, and the European Court of Human Rights. which has been signed by the two Governments and As I have already said in answer to other questions, I which, following full ratification in both the Jordanian believe that we should consider all the options, and that Parliament and our Parliament, will take the status of a that should include leaving the jurisdiction of the Court treaty. altogether. However, we are currently signatories to the convention and must abide by its rulings, and I believe Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): All that my constituents that Governments must abide by the law. Even if we see are judges who are ignoring the will of Parliament, were to ignore the Court and put Abu Qatada on a ignoring the cost to the taxpayer, and ignoring the plane regardless of its ruling—and I do not believe that victims of terrorism. Is it not time for us to change the we would be able to do so in practice—we would risk law and extricate ourselves from all the human rights being ordered by the Court to bring him back to Britain legislation, so that this sort of thing never happens and pay him compensation. Worse than that, as soon as again? we started to ignore our obligations under international law, we would not be able to rely on other countries’ Mrs May: As I have made clear both in the Chamber obligations to us under international law. I think that and outside it, I believe that we need to think about our that would jeopardise our national security and, indeed, relationship with the European convention on human jeopardise many other deportation cases. rights and European Court of Human Rights. I believe I fully understand the frustration felt by my hon. that while we are members of the convention and Friend and others who share his views, but our options subject to the Court, we should abide by the rule of involve operating within the law, and I believe that we law—that is what people would expect the Government should operate within the law or change the law. Dare I to do—but I also believe that we need to change the describe urging the Government to break the law as a relationship, and that everything should be on the table rather reckless step? in that regard. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): The Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does the Home Secretary has now discovered how difficult it is Home Secretary recognise that the influence of the to put this man on a plane to Jordan. Given the possibility European convention on human rights over many years that her latest efforts will be thwarted, has she considered has been beneficial in outlawing questioning under trying to negotiate a fair trial on neutral territory in torture and protecting the human rights of many people order to overcome objections, using a model similar throughout Europe, including people in this country? to the one that was used to bring the Libyan bomber to Does she also recognise that persuading Jordan to justice? accept a non-torture clause in the putative treaty that she has presented to the House was a product of the Mrs May: The suggestion that we have suddenly values of the European convention? Is it not the case discovered how difficult it is to deport Abu Qatada is that we should be talking not about leaving it, but about wide of the mark. That has been absolutely clear from extending the values contained in it to the rest of the the beginning. What I myself have made clear from the world if we can possibly do so? beginning is that we need to follow the processes of law. It has taken time and it will continue to take time, but I Mrs May: The European convention was signed for a believe that it is the right thing to do, and that it will particular purpose. Over the years, the European Court mean that we can eventually deport him. has itself interpreted the convention in particular ways, and I believe that when it raised the issue of Abu Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I congratulate my right Qatada and article 6, it moved the goalposts. hon. Friend on seeking a solution to this vexing situation. Do the fair trial guarantees in the comprehensive mutual The hon. Gentleman mentioned torture in connection legal assistance agreement with Jordan match the standards with Jordan and the agreement that has been signed. I for fair trial under the English court system? If so, does remind him that the Jordanian Government themselves that not constitute a huge improvement for those who changed their constitution to outlaw torture. The case face trial as British subjects in Jordan? of Abu Qatada went before SIAC, and SIAC reached the judgment that it did, because the case law had not Mrs May: Obviously, the mutual legal assistance been tested at that stage. The Jordanian Government agreement, which when ratified will become a treaty, themselves took the step of outlawing torture, and I provides for people other than Abu Qatada. It is a think that we should congratulate them on the changes general agreement on fair trial arrangements, the exchange that they have already made in their legal system. of information and other issues. It provides that in all cases, whether for somebody being deported to Jordan Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): The from the UK who is not Abu Qatada or for deportations Home Secretary has to convince the Supreme Court the other way round. that her case raises an arguable point of law of general public importance. Should she not therefore put the key Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Is it not constitutional question: is Strasbourg entitled to move obvious that this saga will continue for some time and the goalposts, or does our Supreme Court have the last that all the Home Secretary’s efforts have so far failed word? miserably to get this preacher of hatred out of Britain? 895 Abu Qatada24 APRIL 2013 Abu Qatada 896

Following on from an earlier question and some of and on only those points of law. Assuming that the the questions I have asked previously, why cannot the treaty is ratified in both the Jordanian Parliament and appropriate authorities look at prosecution in this country this Parliament, it will enable me to make a fresh not just for breach of bail conditions but for some of deportation decision about Abu Qatada. the remarks he is alleged to have made that clearly incite race hatred? Like me, many people must find it difficult Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): As I to understand why no attempt is being made to prosecute understand it, this is the first time that a deportation him in the United Kingdom. order has been blocked on fair trial grounds under article 6. What assessment, if any, has the Home Office Mrs May: I have made it clear on a number of made of the number of claims likely to follow the occasions that prosecution has always been alongside judicial review, and will she commit to a Bill in the the other activities that the Government are undertaking. Queen’s Speech that unequivocally deals in primary It is looked at. At the moment, we have an active police legislation with article 6 and article 8 grounds for frustrating investigation, on which it is not appropriate for me to deportation orders? comment. It is not the case, as the hon. Gentleman’s question seems to imply, that prosecution has never Mrs May: As I said previously, parliamentary time previously been considered. I remind him that, as he allowing, I intend to bring forward an immigration Bill well knows, prosecution is not a matter for the Home to deal with the matters that can be dealt with. As my Secretary; it is a matter for the Crown Prosecution hon. Friend rightly says, although we are focusing on Service. article 6 today, there is also an article 8 issue. Despite the fact that last year the House unanimously approved Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Does the changes to immigration rules in relation to article 8, Home Secretary realise that she has massive support Members will know that unfortunately one of the judges from the British people for the work she has been doing in the lower tribunal indicated that it was only a weak to get rid of an odious man from this country? She has parliamentary debate, which is why I intend and expect that support because people recognise the frustrations to bring primary legislation to the House. involved in the processes, thanks to the Labour Government’s human rights legislation. I congratulate Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): It is remarkable her on the mutual legal assistance arrangements with that the Home Secretary has had to confirm to the Jordan, and I recommend that she continues on her House that she does not intend to break the law. Can course; eventually it will succeed and we will rid this she confirm whether she is considering temporary country of a dangerous and odious man. withdrawal from the European convention to deal with the case of one man? What would that do to our Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. international reputation? He is absolutely right: everybody wants to see Abu Qatada deported to Jordan. It is frustrating that it has Mrs May: I note the comment the hon. Gentleman taken so long. As I said in my statement, the process made at the beginning of his remarks. I think it is started in 2001, so it is not something that has suddenly important that a Home Secretary is willing to stand in come up for this Government. We have been taking the House and say that the Government should abide steps and we have progressed, in that the Special by the rule of law. There is an issue about the relationship Immigration Appeals Commission accepted the assurances between the Government and the European Court, but from the Jordanian Government in a number of areas it is wider than this particular case. I believe that in in relation to a retrial. We still have the single point to dealing with that issue, all potential aspects should be deal with, and I believe that the mutual legal assistance on the table and should be considered. agreement will provide widely for deportations between both countries and will also deal with the point about Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The framers Abu Qatada. of the European convention on human rights never intended that it should usurp the autonomy of UK Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): jurisdiction or the sovereignty of Parliament. The Home The Secretary of State rightly emphasised that, under Secretary needs to be bold and look at the example of present conditions, the SIAC ruling prevents her from other countries with regards to the efficacy of suspension deporting Qatada. Presumably, the comprehensive treaty from the European Court of Human Rights. Apart with Jordan is designed to meet the circumstances to from the wilder shores of the Liberal Democrats and which SIAC refers. I assume that we cannot go back the Labour left, there is clearly settled consensus for to SIAC for a revision of the ruling, although perhaps that. My constituents and those of other hon. Members she will confirm that point, but perhaps we can use at are fed up with waiting; we want proposals at the the Supreme Court the arguments she has made today. earliest opportunity. If we cannot, this saga will run on and on, and will become an increasing farce, to the embarrassment of Mrs May: My hon. Friend raises points and puts a the whole House and to her in particular. view as he has done in the past. He has been consistent. We too are consistent in accepting that we need to Mrs May: I remind the hon. Gentleman that as I said change the relationship with the European Court and in my statement, we continue to adopt a twin-track that we need to look again at the Human Rights Act. approach. He referred to the Supreme Court. Obviously, Conservative Members came into the House at the last we are seeking leave to appeal direct to the Supreme election with a commitment to repeal the Act and I have Court. If the appeal is accepted, the case will be on every confidence that we will go into the next election points of law in relation to the earlier SIAC judgment, with that commitment. 897 Abu Qatada24 APRIL 2013 Abu Qatada 898

Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): whether the other process that she outlined will work. This farce makes the Government look incompetent as Does she not think that it would be a good idea to give well as impotent. Can the Home Secretary tell me that notice to the Council of Europe today? whether previously loyal Conservatives will have to vote for the UK Independence party before she pays attention Mrs May: I think it is right that the Government to them? pursue the twin-track path that I have set out. I never thought that I would see the day when my hon. Friend Mrs May: I am really not sure what relevance that would stand in the House of Commons proposing that has to the signing of a mutual legal assistance agreement we adopt a middle way. with the Jordanian Government. Over the last three years, the Government have taken every step at every Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Is it not the stage to ensure that we reach the end point we all want, case that there would be no human rights in Europe which is the deportation of Abu Qatada. were it not for this country and its empire standing alone in 1940 against the forces of tyranny that threatened Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate our continent, and that we need not be lectured about my right hon. Friend on her determination to remove human rights by anyone else? Given the dysfunctionality that man, and on her commitment to do so within the of the discredited European convention, it is time for us law. She will be aware that many people believe that to leave—and to leave now—and to establish our own other countries that are signatories to the European Bill of Rights so that we can decide these things for convention act differently and can get rid of people who ourselves. are a clear danger to their society. Does she think that the proposals she has outlined, including the removal of Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right to remind us of the the layers of appeal available to foreign criminals, will valiant stance that this country took against tyranny. reassure the public who hold that view? He is also right to comment on the fact that we need to examine the relationship between this country and the Mrs May: While it is a view widely propounded that European Court of Human Rights, which is of course other countries find it easier to deport people, that view part of the issue of the convention. I say to him, as I is not always based on as much fact as those who put it have said to everyone else, that all options are on the forward would like us to believe. It is important for us table, which include removing ourselves from the Court to shorten the deportation process. The steps we are and the convention. looking at in relation to removing layers of appeal will both ensure that people have access to justice, which is Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): How much important, and that we shorten the process so that we has this cost so far, and how much is it likely to cost in can deport people who are a danger to us rather more the future? quickly than we have been able to do so far. Mrs May: I am not in a position to give my hon. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Home Friend a figure for the costs at this stage, although Secretary for her statement. Her frustration is shared by certain legal aid costs have been published. I undertook all in the Chamber. In legal circles and in some of to inform the Home Affairs Committee of the position today’s press, it is stated that it may be necessary to as best I can, because I was asked such a question at its suspend human rights legislation for six months to sitting last week. enable the deportation to happen. Can she confirm that that strategy is being considered as an option to ensure Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I thank the that the deportation of Abu Qatada can be completed? Home Secretary for her statement; her evident exasperation will be widely reflected in my constituency. Even if the Mrs May: In relation to the deportation of Abu Supreme Court agrees to hear the appeal against the Qatada, we are pursuing the twin track that I set out to Court of Appeal’s ruling, what grounds are there to the House. As I said, an important step has been taken believe that the Supreme Court will overturn that decision, with the signing of the wider-ranging mutual legal given that the Court of Appeal’s judgment stated that assistance agreement, but we retain the intention to the contention that SIAC had erred in law was “particularly appeal directly to the Supreme Court, and we are seeking difficult to sustain”? leave to do so. We are developing that twin track. The relationship between the Human Rights Act, the European Mrs May: We will continue to argue on a point of law Court and the European convention and the views of that we believe is arguable before the courts, notwithstanding the UK and the Government is a wider issue and it is the view taken by the Court of Appeal, but I cannot right that we look at all the options. prejudge the decision that the Supreme Court will take. It is right that the Government continue to ask for leave Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I thank the to appeal directly to the Supreme Court so that, if the Home Secretary for yet again coming to the House to appeal is accepted, the case can be tested in the very keep us informed. Further to the question of the hon. highest court in the land. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), surely the Secretary of State should be following a third way by giving Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): notice to the Council of Europe that we intend to come May I congratulate the Secretary of State on the way in out of the convention in six months’ time, meaning that which she has dealt with terrorists and suspected terrorists, we would be able to withdraw and act legally by deporting because in the past three years, she has rescinded the Abu Qatada. We would then have six months to see British nationality of 16 individuals due to acts linked 899 Abu Qatada24 APRIL 2013 Abu Qatada 900 to terrorism that make it not conducive for them to be Mrs May: One thing that we never seem to get from in this country, which is far more than any previous the Opposition, in any aspect of their policies, is an Secretary of State? apology for what we had to inherit. The deportation of Abu Qatada has been considered by successive Mrs May: I note my hon. Friend’s comments. When Governments since 2001. We have taken several steps we came into government, we were clear that we needed that I believe have put us a position in which we will be to ensure that we could act against extremists, including able to achieve that end. I have been absolutely clear violent extremists, and we have been pursuing that in that rights of appeal will be available to Abu Qatada if the way that he sets out, as well as though our policy of a new deportation decision is issued, so the process exclusions. could take many months—it will not be over quickly—but the Government have been absolutely right to take such Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): May I action. We have reduced the issues that must be dealt warmly thank my right hon. Friend for all the work that with to this single point that we believe the agreement she has done? She has already managed to remove one will address. extremist, Abu Hamza—he has slung his hook off to Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): It is a farce America—and I have every faith that her work will that it has taken so long—it will clearly take a while continue. However, my constituents are frustrated not longer yet—to remove this individual, who we all agree only because it is so difficult to unpick Labour’s Human is a danger. That farce damages faith in politics, plays Rights Act, but because of reports of the benefits that into the hands of extremists and, tragically, undermines Abu Qatada might well be receiving in this country. Has my constituents’ support for human rights legislation. my right hon. Friend spoken to the Secretary of State In that context, may I warmly welcome what the Home for Work and Pensions to ensure that Abu Qatada is not Secretary says about changing the law so that we no getting anything to which he is not entitled? longer find ourselves in the ridiculous position whereby the rights of one terror suspect seem to trump our Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for his opening constituents’ rights to live freely and safely? remarks, but may I say that an awful lot of work and Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right. We should be able effort is also being put in by Home Office officials and to balance the rights of the individual against the wider the Security Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for rights of society. I understand his point about his Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire)? On the constituents’ attitude to human rights. Those who last point made by my hon. Friend the Member for propounded the changes that took place need to understand Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), I simply say the risk that the concept of human rights becomes that he should not believe everything he reads in the discredited if people see it as being used consistently to papers about such matters. stop us from deporting those who are a danger to this country. Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): My right hon. Friend will be well aware of the widespread anger Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): throughout the country about the amount of time it is My right hon. Friend has extradited several terrorist taking to deal with this, but is she also aware that there suspects from Britain, including Abu Hamza, so it is is widespread understanding throughout the country, if right that she maintains the same strong resolve to see not among every Member of the House, that there is an Abu Qatada deported. Does she recall the number of obligation on the Home Secretary and the Government years that the Labour party had in which to remove to obey the law and abide by the decision of the courts, these dangerous individuals from our country and how so we appreciate that she has no choice in the matter? it singularly failed to do so? Will she confirm that the Government’s position is Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right. As I said, Abu made more difficult by the human rights legislation that Qatada’s case started back in 2001 and we are attempting the previous Labour Government passed in this House, to achieve what the previous Government could not although Labour Members take no responsibility achieve. I believe we are closer to doing that as a result whatsoever for the mess that we are in? of the agreement that we have signed. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for her comments. (Con): My constituents consistently ask, “Why don’t we She is absolutely right to remind us that the previous just stick this man on a plane and have done with it, Labour Government passed the Human Rights Act. regardless of what the European convention on human Several Labour Members have spoken about dealing rights says?” Will my right hon. Friend confirm, however, with human rights, but they brought the European that as much as we all want rid of this dreadful, odious convention into British legislation, and we will have to little man, we all have greater benefit from living under deal with that legislation if we are to sort out the wider a Government who stick to their own laws as they are in issue of our relationship with the European Court. place at present?

Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right. Many people say, welcome the arrangements that the Home Secretary is “Why don’t you just put this individual on a plane?”, negotiating with Jordan. Does she agree that it is all but that would not, I believe, be practically possible in very well for Opposition Members to carp and criticise relation to the action that the courts would take. Also, it in a typical fit of political opportunism, but that they is important—my hon. Friend says there are wider should reflect on the massive contribution that they benefits—that the Government are willing to say that we made to the mess in which we find ourselves? Indeed, abide not just by our rule of law, but by our international what we would like from them is an apology. legal obligations. 901 24 APRIL 2013 902

Point of Order Planning Permission (Financial Penalties) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 1.20 pm No. 23) Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not consider that I 1.21 pm received a proper reply from the Home Secretary to the question whether the Supreme Court should decide the Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I beg to move, key constitutional matter, as she descended to what That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable local planning some might describe as personal abuse. May I ask your authorities to impose a mandatory financial penalty where planning advice as to whether this is an appropriate matter that I permission has been deliberately breached; and for connected might seek to raise on the Adjournment? purposes. I recall, as a newly elected councillor in Newcastle- Mr Speaker: Nothing unparliamentary has occurred. under-Lyme, being astonished to see a walled mansion The hon. Gentleman must make up his own mind. It is being built in a particularly pleasant spot and being entirely open to him to apply for an Adjournment told by the ward member that, although it clearly debate which realistically, if it were granted, would be in contravened the planning permission that had been the next Session. I know that he is dextrous in his use of given, nothing could be done. Ever since then, I have parliamentary opportunities. been concerned about a lack of fairness in the planning system, or at least in its administration, which seems to Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Ambidextrous. impose considerable burdens on the vast majority of ordinary citizens who play by the rules, while the small Mr Speaker: I did not say he was ambidextrous. I said minority who do not do so get away with the planning he was dextrous, but I am always grateful for the sedentary equivalent of murder. chuntering of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Judging by the fact that I have seen examples of this Bryant). in all three planning authorities with which I have had a close connection—Newcastle under Lyme borough council, Stafford borough council and South Staffordshire district council—I believe this to be a widespread problem and not peculiar to a few areas. Indeed, I have been contacted by one council which highlighted some serious deliberate abuses of planning. Although the council welcomed the amendments through the Localism Act to the scale of fines that can be levied, it believes that these do not go far enough to act as a deterrent. The national planning policy framework states: “Effective enforcement is important as a means of maintaining public confidence in the planning system.” It also states: “Enforcement action is discretionary, and local planning authorities should act proportionately in responding to suspected breaches of planning control. Local planning authorities should consider publishing a local enforcement plan to manage enforcement proactively, in a way that is appropriate to their area. This should set out how they will monitor the implementation of planning permissions, investigate alleged cases of unauthorised development and take action where it is appropriate to do so.” The Bill which I am asking leave to introduce would require local authorities to impose substantial and proportionate fines on those who deliberately and clearly breached planning consent in such cases or who built without consent at all. The authority would clearly have discretion to determine whether the breach of consent was deliberate and clear, but it seems to me, as I am sure it does to most who have been involved in such matters, that it is not difficult to distinguish between an inadvertent and minor breach and one which is deliberate and clear. The Bill would also make it clear that a proportionate fine would remove all actual and potential financial gain made by the developer as a result of the deliberate breach of consent, and permit a penalty to be imposed in addition. Under my Bill, councils would be required to use the proceeds of fines to the benefit of the community in which the breach occurred, helping to restore public confidence in the planning system and delivering clear results from enforcement action. 903 Planning Permission (Financial 24 APRIL 2013 Planning Permission (Financial 904 Penalties) Penalties) I am not seeking to impose new bureaucratic burdens My Bill would particularly support places such as the on planning. No law-abiding citizen or development City of Westminster, which contacted me over this issue. company would be caught by these provisions, nor would It has been a serious matter for that council, not least fines be imposed for slight, unintentional infringements because of the high land values and the potential financial of planning permission. Indeed, law-abiding citizens gains which can be made though breaches of consent. are likely to welcome proper fines being imposed on One specific example the council shared involved major those who decide to break the law by breaching planning international businesses displaying large scaffold advertising permission. Everyone who goes through the planning banners during London 2012 Olympics. This case was process knows that it can be time-consuming and expensive, subject to enforcement and the deputy chief magistrate but they also know, or should know, that they are being who heard the case stated in her summation that the required to do what everyone else must do in order scale of fines was not high enough and needed to be either to preserve the character of the built environment reviewed. This deliberate abuse of the planning system in which they live or as part of developments in their purely for financial gain resulted in a fine in one case of community which have been agreed upon through the just £2,000—far less than the advantage gained. democratic process. If people see wilful breaches of The City of Westminster also pointed out the impact planning permission, or development with no permission of unauthorised short-term lets which skew the rental at all and no sanction imposed, they understandably market and squeeze out genuine long-term renters. Ensuring feel aggrieved. The result is that the planning system that such breaches resulted in fines which removed any comes into disrepute and there is a strong sense of financial gain would encourage renters to follow the injustice. law. Clearly, I also want to see a more efficient planning My Bill serves to strengthen the hand of local authorities system with fewer delays and unnecessary costs, and it in a proportionate manner to deter those who wish to is the responsibility of local planning authorities to use for their own gain the ineffectiveness of the current achieve this. There must be a carrot as well as a stick. A application of sanctions on unauthorised development. letter to Planning in January 2009 under the headline It is, I believe, a necessary part of a more efficient and “Process drives developers to eschew approvals route” fair planning system. reads: Question put and agreed to. “The planning process has become so lengthy, complicated Ordered, and bureaucratic that unscrupulous developers have found a more efficient, profitable and quicker method of obtaining permissions. That Jeremy Lefroy, Fiona Bruce, Gavin Williamson, They simply ignore the system.” Paul Farrelly, Andrea Leadsom, Mr Michael McCann, But as they improve their systems, planning authorities Steve Brine, Andrew Griffiths, Jim Shannon, Peter Luff, must have the ability to deal properly with those Mr Robin Walker and Mr Gary Streeter present the unscrupulous developers. Bill. One argument which might be advanced against my Jeremy Lefroy accordingly presented the Bill. Bill is that there are already sufficient sanctions available Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on to planning authorities. It is true that they are able to Friday 26 April and to be printed (Bill 166). order the demolition of the offending development and have been known to do so. But more often than not, Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): On a point of demolition is considered to be a disproportionate penalty, order, Mr Speaker. During Scottish questions earlier and the result is that the illegal development is sanctioned today, the Secretary of State agreed to group Questions 6 in retrospect. and 7. I am puzzled as to why my question, Question 12, Fines can also be levied. For instance, there is a which was exactly the same, was not also grouped. As maximum fine for the unauthorised display of an you know, I stood up at the time to try to ask my advertisement of £2,500. For unauthorised works, there question but was unsuccessful. That is not a complaint; are fines of up to £20,000 upon conviction in the I just wonder how questions are grouped and who magistrates court and an unlimited fine if convicted by decided how they are grouped. the Crown court. But these cases rarely go to court and the fines are almost never imposed. Certainly, that has Mr Speaker: The short answer to the question in the not happened in any of the cases which I have seen hon. Gentleman’s point of order is that responsibility locally and believe merited such penalties. for the grouping or non-grouping of questions lies What is needed is an automatic sanction which falls entirely with the Government. Ordinarily, the Government short of demolition, unless that is clearly the answer, make a calculation of the likely point that will be but which means that the developer not only gains no reached in Question Time, based on previous experience, financial reward from their illegal activity, but incurs a and judge accordingly whether or not they think it penalty. I think of a recent case in my constituency in appropriate to group Questions. It is not a matter for which homes were constructed of a size that was the Chair. I am genuinely sorry if the hon. Gentleman considerably larger than that for which permission had was disappointed not to be able to participate in the been given. I would have wished to see a fine imposed exchanges on—if memory serves me correctly—the effect which was equivalent to the difference in value between of the Budget upon Scotland, but I know that he is a the type of house actually built and that which had been dedicated and assiduous contributor to our proceedings permitted, with a penalty on top. Such a fine, which the and am sure that he will seek to catch the eye of the developer would have known about in advance, would Chair in future. In the meantime, his dissatisfaction has make it less likely that he would have gone ahead and been registered with the Chair, the House and the flouted planning permission to the distress and disadvantage Government Whip sitting on the Treasury Bench. of several local residents. 905 24 APRIL 2013 Public Service Pensions Bill 906

Public Service Pensions Bill The Government’s amendment proposes that the review period should be six months from when clause 9, which Consideration of Lords message relates to the state pension age link, comes into force. That provision alters the normal pension ages for those After Clause 9 work forces, so that is where the focus should be. It is our intention that the clause should be commenced as early as possible. Standard Government rules require DEFENCE FIRE AND RESCUE SERVICE AND MINISTRY that provisions in a Bill are not commenced until two OF DEFENCE POLICE CAPABILITY REVIEW months after Royal Assent unless the Bill itself provides for earlier commencement, as the hon. Member for 1.32 pm Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) will be aware from his The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): time in government. I beg to move, We should all remember that the key effect of the That this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendment 78B review is likely to be felt in 2015, which is when the new but proposes amendment (a) to the Bill in lieu of that amendment. schemes are brought in, but the important point is that I begin by thanking Opposition Members for their there will be no delay. The Government have every constructive engagement on the treatment of Ministry incentive to resolve the terms and conditions of the of Defence police and fire workers’ normal pension age MOD police and the defence fire and rescue service as under the Bill. Important issues were explored during soon as possible, since they will be needed to design and our debate on Monday, when views were put forward implement the new scheme, which will cater for them in passionately by Members on both sides of the House. time for April 2015. The Government have acknowledged the strength of feeling. In the other place, my colleague Lord Newby Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The Minister will has explained that the Government fully accept the recall that on Monday I was very critical of the absence spirit of the Lords amendment we are considering of the Ministry of Defence from the debate. Has there today. been any involvement with it in the past 48 hours? We are willing to include a review of defence fire and rescue service and MOD police members’ NPA in the Sajid Javid: Yes, absolutely. It is of course a full Bill and formalise the approach that I announced we Government position; it represents the views of not were intending to take. The review will ensure that the only the Treasury, but the MOD. In fact, I discussed the issue can be discussed formally by the appropriate matter only yesterday with the Secretary of State for parties to consider the best way forward. However, Defence. although the Government agree with the amendment, it requires some small changes to ensure that it works as intended. I urge hon. Members to agree to the tweaks Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I put forward in our amendment. congratulate the Minister on seeing sense and reaching I will explain briefly why the wording of the Government’s an accommodation with the Lords on the amendment. amendment differs slightly from that proposed in the Can he assure me that he will continue to work with the other place. First, we have made a small change to representatives of the MOD police and firefighters to the nature of what must be reported on in order to make ensure that the work force representations are brought it more precise and legally certain. Secondly, the names into the process? of the work forces were incorrect. The reference to the “Defence Fire and Rescue Service” has been adjusted to Sajid Javid: I am not used to getting warm words make it consistent with the terms of other legislation from the hon. Lady, and when I do I take them with that describes the same work force. good grace. I thank her for her warm welcome. I can Thirdly, the amendment passed to us from the other assure her that when the MOD commences the review—it place seems to confer a double role on the Secretary of has already begun the preliminary work on it—it will State for Defence, as he would be included by both include all stakeholders, and that of course includes the references. My right hon. Friend is a very busy man. It representatives of the two work forces in question. cannot be right to require him both to prepare and to The clock is already ticking and a delay would make lay a report in conjunction with himself—that would implementation of the schemes all the more challenging. defy the laws of physics. I assume that was unintentional, Moreover, I should emphasise that the time scale is and it is easily rectified by Government amendment (a). already much tighter than that which Members requested Finally, and most importantly, it is unclear when the during our debate on Monday. My colleague Lord amendment is to come into force. The Opposition in the Newby stated yesterday that the Government would not other place have called for the review to be completed kick the review into the long grass. I reiterate that within six months. I am keen to address the House on statement today and fully endorse his comments. I give that point, because I believe that there has been some the House my assurance that the MOD and the Treasury confusion about whether that means six months from will work to ensure not only that clause 9 and the new the date of Royal Assent, or six months after section 9 clause set out in our amendment are commenced as comes into effect. The Opposition’s amendment would soon as possible, but that preliminary work on the require a review within six months of the Act coming review will start before the new clause is commenced. I into force. However, the Act will be brought into force hope that hon. Members will agree that rejecting the in stages and some sections might not be commenced amendment passed to us for consideration from the for more than a year. We do not intend section 9 to be Lords and replacing it with the Government’s slightly one of those stages. more refined version is the most sensible way forward. 907 Public Service Pensions Bill24 APRIL 2013 Public Service Pensions Bill 908

Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): It is has spoken in the spirit of compromise today. The refreshing to have the Minister in this emollient frame Minister said that the process would start as soon as of mind. His words suggest a tacit acknowledgment possible. I got the impression that he was implicitly that he has been on the wrong side of the argument to saying that it would take two months or similar to date. I am pleased that the House of Lords continued to trigger clause 9 and then six months thereafter. He insist that the Government should think afresh on the implied that we would get the review at the end of this issue. Clearly, there is an unfair disparity between Ministry calendar year, so it would be helpful if he could confirm of Defence and civilian firefighters and police, and that general time frame. He also responded to the every rule of natural justice suggested that that anomaly intervention by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan needed to be addressed. (Dr Whiteford) by reassuring us that there will be I make the point in passing that it was a little unwarranted ongoing consultation with employee representatives. for the Government to tell the Lords that it was not Thirdly, a source of anxiety since our debate on allowed to continue with its point of principle—this Monday—the Minister has not touched on this—has was one way of shutting it up—because of financial been the question of the abatement of MOD firefighter privilege. Nevertheless, I am glad at the ingenuity of the and police pay as part of the necessary adjustment to Lords in keeping the issue alive with their proposal for a ensure parity between the civilian and civil service pension review. schemes. Obviously, it would be unfair to deduct a sum The Government could not resist tinkering with that from the pay of MOD firefighters and police at source—that proposal. The Minister has explained why he made seems to be the case historically—as well as to ask them some of those changes, but I want to press him for a few to pay again when additional contributions begin under reassurances. We welcome the proposal for a review, as the new scheme. Will the Minister assure us that that broadly agreed by the Lords, but we now need—if you discrepancy will be properly addressed in the review? will forgive the pun, Mr Deputy Speaker—to keep the The risk of a duplication of contributions would be Government’s feet to the fire. unfair and there is some anxiety about this. The level of The Government have to address the issue of the the abatement needs properly to reflect the relative physical demands on individual personnel and whether value of benefits in the new scheme. This is a complex it is reasonable to insist that they should keep working point, but it would help if the Minister could assure us in arduous and dangerous conditions until they are 67. that the abatement issue will be drawn to a conclusion. The review has to get the Government and Ministers finally to answer the question about how it can possibly be fair for one set of firefighters and police to work 1.45 pm until they are 60 and for MOD staff to work until they By accepting the need for a proper review, the Treasury are 67. The review should address whether the job has moved from its previous insistence that nothing description can realistically be fulfilled by those who could be done. Earlier this week the most we could get continue to work into their late 60s. was a hint that it might consider sticking to 65 as the Ministers have changed the Lords amendment so age of retirement. We will now see—by the end of this that it no longer mentions the need for statements of calendar year, I hope—whether the Government will requirements, which are official MOD documents and honour their responsibilities to the 356 MOD firefighters would address any concerns, especially among heads of and police. forces. However, I think that the Government’s amendment I am glad that we have extracted some concessions sort of preserves the original meaning. The review from Ministers and that the further review is on the should also reveal whether an insistence on staff working table. I also commend David Kirby and MOD firefighters until they are 67 would have a perverse effect on the and police representatives for their unrelenting hard taxpayer, because it might cost more as a result of the work in getting the Government to this position. The numbers forced into early retirement on the grounds of story is not over. We need to keep a watchful eye on sickness or illness. things, particularly when the review is published. I want I have three principal questions on which I would like the Minister’s reassurance on each of the three points the Minister’s reassurance, although he has addressed that I have raised, because they matter and it would be them in part. First—the hon. Member for Colchester preferable if the House reached consensus. (Sir Bob Russell) alluded to this—the Lords felt that it was important that Treasury Ministers and the Secretary Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) of State for Defence should undertake the review jointly, (LD): I join in the thanks to the Minister and our noble that it should not be brushed off to one Department or friend Lord Newby for their work during all the stages the other, or to a third, independent reviewer, and that it of this end-of-term attempt at reconciliation, which has should be the Government’s set of conclusions. Sometimes at last been achieved. I also thank colleagues on the Treasury documents refer to a Secretary of State and Labour Benches and those on our Back Benches and on sometimes they refer to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. the Cross Benches in the Lords who made sure that the I sensed from what the Minister said that both Departments remaining issue in this huge Bill could be resolved would be involved in the review. Will he give that amicably. The Lord’s proposal and the Minister’s reassurance? amendment mean that this is not a closed book and I Secondly, when will we get the review? The Minister hope that this hugely important Bill to reform public said that it is not normal practice to refer to Royal sector pensions will be put on the statute book this Assent as the date that triggers the announcement of week. There is now a fixed time frame in which to how many months it will take before reports and reviews address further the anomaly that was not spotted by the will be produced. I am not sure whether I agree with previous Government or by Lord Hutton, but that has him, but I will go with it on this occasion, given that he since been brought to our attention. 909 Public Service Pensions Bill24 APRIL 2013 Public Service Pensions Bill 910

[Simon Hughes] think the Minister understands that, but I wanted to put it on the record that that is where the workers want I also join in the thanks to Mr Kirby and his colleagues to start from. That is a reasonable expectation. for their efforts in making sure that we understood their I am grateful to the Minister and am pleased that we concerns. Their request is not unfair. They are asking to have been able to carry out this bicameral activity again be put in a position similar to those who do similar in a spirit of determined resolution, which I hope will jobs—they are not identical jobs—in the civilian services. mean that this important Bill becomes an Act on the My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob statute book this week. Russell) made the obvious point about the logic of that position when he said earlier this week that the argument Sir Bob Russell: I am delighted that the trust and in favour of Ministry of Defence firefighters and police confidence that I placed in the Minister on the public and rescue people retiring at 60, as is the case in the record on Monday has been justified. I thank him, civilian services, is, bluntly, that they do dangerous jobs those around him and those in the other place for that require them to be particularly fit. The argument bringing matters to a resolution that, although a that they can be expected to do their job properly and compromise, is one that I hope we can all live with. In protect themselves and others after they reach 60 has that spirit of concord, I thank Opposition Front Benchers not been made. We are all in favour of more flexible for their contribution. We should praise the representatives ages of retirement. I buy the argument that the retirement of the Ministry of Defence police and fire and rescue age has to go up, both in general and in relation to service, because without their sterling endeavours, we public servants, and I support the Government’s proposals, might have ended up with a right mess. but we have to accept that the time when people are not fit enough to do certain jobs will come earlier than I remain critical of the Ministry of Defence, because others. if it had been involved at an earlier stage, we would not have got to the stage where a resolution was needed. I I have a few questions. The Bill’s provisions will am still concerned that we are looking at this matter the commence when it is enacted, but that does not apply to wrong way around. It is the fitness of the people to do those in clause 9—the pension age provisions—which these very dangerous jobs that should be paramount, will be subject to an announcement by the Chancellor not the retirement age or the pension. They defend and or a Treasury Minister at a later date. That is a perfectly provide security and fire services for nuclear installations. normal procedure. Will the Minister explain in his I urge the Ministry of Defence, notwithstanding the response to the hon. Member for Nottingham East resolution of this particular matter, to look calmly at (Chris Leslie) when he expects that announcement to be the security and fire protection that its police and fire made? That will be of wider interest, because it is a and rescue services provide in the national interest to hugely important issue. ensure that they are fit for purpose. Nobody doubts the courage and commitment of the individuals concerned. Secondly, I ask the Minister to accept that some of However, as I said on Monday, do we really want our the facts and figures that he has used, which I think nuclear installations to be looked after by people of my have also been used by the Government in the other age? place, are not accepted as facts and may be misinformed. I am not accusing the Minister of doing that wilfully. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I am pleased For example, he has made the fairly strong argument that the Government have agreed to make this amendment. that an 8% increase in contributions would be required My constituents who work as police officers and firefighters from these firefighers, rescue workers and police to fund at Faslane and Coulport will be pleased that the a pension age of 60. The workers say that it would be a Government have listened to their case and tabled this very small figure of about 2%. amendment. That ties in to my third question. It is important that The report will look at the impact of the Bill on the we take into account what this change would cost the health and well-being of defence police and firefighters, Treasury and the taxpayer. The Government have in and at the ability of those over 60 to meet the strict both Houses given the estimate of £10 million a year. fitness requirements that are necessary for the important The people who have come to see me have argued that and dangerous job that they do. The report will also the sum will be much smaller and may be in the order of consider the consequences of early retirement for the £2 million a year. I do not pretend to be an expert on workers who are forced to retire early on health grounds these issues, but I am sure that the Minister will say because they cannot meet the stringent fitness requirements when he winds up that the Government will not go into in their 60s, as well as the cost to the taxpayer. this process with a closed view. It is a negotiation, so the The Government inherited this anomaly and it was arguments will be heard and I hope that the true facts missed by Lord Hutton in preparing his report. The will be accepted. Government have been faithful to the Hutton report in It has been accepted already in the conversations the Bill. I am pleased that they have listened to the with the Ministry of Defence that the pension age for concerns of defence police and firefighters, and have fire and rescue workers and police in the services can be agreed to table this amendment. held at 65 and not rise in line with the provisions of the After Monday’s debate, defence police and firefighters Bill, which take account of increasing life expectancy. I in my constituency expressed concerns to me about the want to reinforce the point that the people who will be size of the abatement of their pay that it was suggested affected argue not that their pension age should held at might be necessary to reduce their retirement age to 60. 65, but that it should be 60, in line with similar civilian I hope that all the calculations on the abatement of pay workers. If that age is later renegotiated across the piece will be transparent in the report. Calculating pension for firefighters, rescue workers and police, that is fine. I contributions is an enormously complex process. Following 911 Public Service Pensions Bill24 APRIL 2013 Public Service Pensions Bill 912 a review by the Government Actuary’s Department, the reassurance that the review would include consideration abatement on pay rates for MOD firefighters has been of the physical demands placed on Ministry of Defence reduced retrospectively from 9% to 7.8% from 1 April fire workers and police officers. Of course, that is exactly last year. The fact that that calculation has been made what I expect. To give him further reassurance, I point only recently and has been backdated is an indication of out that proposed subsection (2)(b) in the Government’s how complicated a subject this is. It is important that amendment in lieu makes that clear. It clearly states that during the review, all the calculations are transparent the Ministry of Defence will ensure that the work forces and independently verified, and that the workers are in question can meet their operational requirements. allowed to ask questions about them. That is an important part of the review. I am delighted that the Government have listened The hon. Gentleman also wanted reassurance that and brought forward the review. I am fairly confident the review would not just be an MOD review. Of course, that the review will find that it is not good for the the MOD will carry out the review, but I can assure him workers or for the taxpayer for people doing these that it will do so with the full support of the Treasury strenuous and dangerous jobs to work beyond 60. The and on behalf of the Government. That is the important calculations will show that if the retirement age is 65 or thing. 68 and significant numbers of people are forced to My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey retire early on health grounds, both the taxpayer and and Old Southwark asked an important question about the worker will lose out. The worker will lose out timing. Perhaps I can add some more clarity. As I said because they will not get the full pension that they had earlier, the Government intend that the review, which expected. The taxpayer will lose out because the amount will take no longer than six months, will commence that has been paid into the pension pot will not cover when the provision in clause 9 related to the pension age the cost of the pension if it is paid out early. is itself commenced. We plan that to be within two It would not be right for these workers to work months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent. I am willing beyond 60. The right comparison is with civilian firefighters to go further, because this is an important issue and I and police who work for local authority fire services or know that many fire workers and police officers from other police forces. I am fairly confident that the review the MOD will be listening. I am happy to say that we will recommend a retirement age of 60. I congratulate not only intend but fully expect that to be the time scale. the Government on listening to the legitimate concerns I am therefore happy to commit to the House that I that have been put forward. fully expect the review to be over within eight months of Sajid Javid: I thank all hon. Members who spoke in Royal Assent. the debate on Monday and who have spoken to me I agree that abatement, which the hon. Member for outside the Chamber. In particular, I thank my right Nottingham East and my right hon. Friend the Member hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old for Bermondsey and Old Southwark raised, is an important Southwark (Simon Hughes) and my hon. Friends the issue. It is therefore important that the MOD review Members for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) and for Argyll considers it. It will have to consider a broad range of and Bute (Mr Reid) who have spoken today. I also want issues affecting the workers in question, including all to put it on the record that my right hon. Friend the pay and remuneration conditions and other potential Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) has made benefits. It will have to examine the matter in its totality, representations on behalf of his constituents on this and I would expect nothing else. important issue. He has been robust in representing If I understood my right hon. Friend correctly, he them, even though as a member of the Whips Office he was also looking for reassurance that contrary to the is not able to speak on their behalf in the Chamber, and letter that the MOD wrote to forces personnel about the that is reflected in the Government’s amendment. review considering only a retirement age of 65, which we discussed on Monday, there is no such restriction. 2pm The review will be much broader-based, and the MOD As I said on Monday, and as we have heard again will make comparisons with civilian fire workers and today, the whole House believes that the work forces we police officers. No restriction at all is being put in its are talking about today—defence fire workers and way. police—do excellent, vital and sometimes dangerous I hope that I have answered hon. Members’ questions, work, and we all hold them in high regard. I am sure I and that they will see that the Government have considered speak on behalf of the House and all our constituents the matter carefully and value the work forces in question. in saying that. I urge the House to accept the amendment in lieu. I will go through the questions that have been asked, starting with those from the hon. Member for Nottingham Question put and agreed to. East (Chris Leslie). First, he understandably asked for 913 24 APRIL 2013 Defamation Bill 914

Defamation Bill I believe that the Lords amendment represents an effective and proportionate approach that addresses the Consideration of Lords message concerns that have been expressed in this House and elsewhere. I urge the House to support it. Clause 1 Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Thanks to a lot of hard work—especially in the other place, it SERIOUS HARM has to be said—the Bill is now in a much better place. It is still far from perfect, sadly, which is a huge shame. 2.4 pm It could have been perfect and a marvel to behold, but sadly the to-do list in the Bill includes early strike-out, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice website operator regulations and clarification for booksellers (Mrs Helen Grant): I beg to move, of the innocent dissemination rules, about which they That this House agrees with Lords amendment 2B in lieu of were concerned. It also includes costs, which are a Lords amendment 2, to which this House has disagreed. strange case, because we are really no further forward The reasons that this House gave for disagreeing to on them. certain amendments to the Bill have been considered Indeed, we are left in a wholly unsatisfactory place. in the other place, and a further amendment has been The last-minute announcement of a consultation on agreed there that now requires consideration by this House. costs over the summer shows how sloppily this Government I ask the House to agree to Lords amendment 2B. have treated parts of the Defamation Bill. The mess The Lords amendment is to clause 1 and makes clear in respect of defamation, Leveson and the Legal Aid, that a body that trades for profit will satisfy the serious Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 means harm test only if it is able to show that the statement in future people in a similar position to the Dowlers, complained of has caused that body, or is likely to cause Simon Singh and Peter Wilmshurst who will fight it, serious financial loss. As I made clear when we defamation cases will probably be in a worse position originally considered Lords amendments, we recognise on costs than they would have been had the Government the strength of feeling that exists on whether there not got their hands on this legislation. Despite the should be a specific provision in the Bill on the issue. I promises that were made during the passage of the indicated that I would consider the matter further, and LASPO Act, costs is a major issue, and it should have the amendment reflects the outcome of those considerations. been dealt with properly before this Bill returned to the As the Government explained at earlier stages of the Chamber. Bill’s passage, we amended what was initially a “substantial The Minister commented on extending the Derbyshire harm” requirement to one of “serious harm” to raise principle to private companies. It is estimated that, the bar for bringing defamation claims. The Lords following this Government’s privatisation agenda, in the amendment therefore refers to “serious financial loss”, NHS alone private companies will take over £16 billion- to reflect that aim, and is now linked explicitly with the worth of Government contracts to provide services serious harm test. previously carried out by the public sector. Those services We consider that the approach that we have taken is will go to private companies that use the law to chill clearly preferable to that in the earlier Lords amendment 2 debate in a way that the NHS cannot. Atos frequently for two main reasons. First, the use of the words “serious suppresses disquiet, and Baroness Hayter cited Serco in financial loss” makes it absolutely clear that the financial the other place yesterday. loss required to meet the serious harm test must itself I hope the judiciary is listening to this debate and has be serious. By contrast, the reference in the earlier listened to some of the other debates, because as Ministers amendment to “substantial financial loss” could both in this House and the other place have repeatedly inadvertently have weakened the requirements of what said, the courts should further develop the Derbyshire must be shown to satisfy the test. principle in line with the will of Parliament. That is an unsatisfactory position, however, and this is on the Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): Why does to-do list of things that would have improved the Bill my hon. Friend say that? What is the difference between dramatically, but I hope the courts will now extend “serious” and “substantial”? Derbyshire to contracts between the private sector and the Government or local authorities, because that is in Mrs Grant: I am sure that my hon. and learned line with the will of this House. [Interruption.] The Friend will go into details about the motion that he Minister has commented on that, as I have said. tabled, but as we have made clear, we think it is helpful that there will be a direct link between serious harm and It is thanks to Opposition Members that the Bill has serious financial loss. That will make the situation absolutely been improved. No matter what is claimed on the clear to those wishing to bring an action. Liberal Democrat Voice website, not once have the Lib Dems backed us against the Government. Indeed, yesterday The second reason why Lords amendment 2B is in the other place in the vote on the Derbyshire aspect preferable to the earlier Lords amendment 2 is that the of what was amendment 2—[Interruption.] The Minister term that we have used to define those who will be keeps chuntering about Derbyshire, but the issue here is subject to the requirement— clearly that the will of this House has been expressed on “a body that trades for profit”— many occasions, but thanks to the Liberal Democrats is a much clearer and simpler definition. Those are the supporting the Government, we are not able to take bodies about which people have expressed concern, so that forward. It is important to put that on the record. we have phrased the amendment specifically and directly No matter what they say, it is all talk and no action to meet those concerns. from the Liberal Democrats. 915 Defamation Bill24 APRIL 2013 Defamation Bill 916

This is now a better Bill, but it is not the best it could all over the place and looking confused. I think we are be, and we will need to return to it after Labour is in a confused position. Sadly, nothing that I heard from re-elected to government in 2015—or sooner, I hope. It my hon. Friend this afternoon, or from the Minister in is the best we can expect at present, however, and that is the other place, Lord McNally, when he spoke to the a shame. I am disappointed—and also surprised, although Government position, has filled me with any confidence perhaps I should not be—that the hon. and learned that this is anything other than a backstairs deal. If the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) has Government admit this is a backstairs deal, so we can introduced his proposal. We will hear his observations clear that up, that will be good, but I have a suspicion it on this matter in a few moments. We will decide whether is being dressed up as a matter of principle when there what is before us is the best we can get today after we is no principle other than the shenanigans of coalition have heard the Minister’s final comments. politics. As is clear from my unselected motion, I have an Sir Edward Garnier: I must disappoint the hon. Member interest to declare. I declared it last week, and I shall for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) because I do probably go to my grave with R in square brackets not think my motion has been selected. None the less, I printed on my forehead, but if a Member of Parliament am not prevented from—and nor shall I be inhibited happens to know a bit about something, such as an area from—saying a few things about where we are now. of law, it is a pity if he or she feels he or she cannot say There are plenty of aspects of the Defamation Bill—which something about that subject when a Bill touching upon has been chuntering away in the background in this it comes to be considered. House and the other place for a few years now—that are commendable, and other aspects that are utterly Clause 1 currently states: harmless; they will not do any good, but neither will “A statement is not defamatory unless its publication has they do any harm. I am disappointed as well, however— caused or is likely to cause serious harm to the reputation of the although I suppose that might partly be to do with my claimant,” having been first elected to this House 21 years ago and It is now being proposed that these words be added to having been here too long—that the coalition Government it: have allowed themselves to create the law of England “For the purposes of this section, harm to the reputation of a through a series of backdoor deals, rather than through body that trades for profit is not ‘serious harm’ unless it has any rational and coherent thought. caused or is likely to cause the body serious financial loss.” I think the hon. Gentleman largely agrees with me Those words are perfectly understandable; they are about where we are now with this Bill, as, I suspect, ordinary English words and my hon. Friend and I can does my hon. Friend the Minister, but she is in a well understand what they say. What I find troublesome, difficult place and I sympathise with her about that. It is however, is that last week she did not approve of them a pity that the Secretary of State for Justice is not here being inserted into the Bill, but this week she does. As I to defend where we are now and to speak up for the Bill have said, this smells of a pretty low-grade backstairs for which he has responsibility on behalf of the deal. Government. Last week, I made some arguments that the House Last week my hon. Friend and I were in agreement; accepted, and it therefore rejected an amendment whose this week we are not. Last week the Government whipped terms are broadly similar to the one the Government coalition Members to support what I and my hon. are now pushing upon us, so I will not repeat what I said Friend were advocating—that it is not in the public in the House last week, and nor will I repeat what my interest to have a financial damage hurdle for companies noble Friend Lord Faulks said in the other place—although to overcome that want to bring proceedings in libel. I urge those in this House and elsewhere who are This week, the Government have changed their mind—or interested in this subject to look at what he said. He have had their mind changed for them. I am all for made a short and considered speech; it was a shorter people changing their mind if the circumstances or speech than the one I am making. In it, he unpicked in a evidence supports that. What I find intolerable—and gently generous way my noble Friend Lord McNally’s what I think amounts to a form of incoherence and arguments—I should, perhaps, put that word in inverted political feebleness, and which is little short of intellectual commas. dishonesty—is for a Government to march their troops It strikes me—and I think it struck my noble Friend up the hill one week and then to rush down the hill the yesterday—that the additional requirement of special next week saying, “We didn’t really mean it last week,” damage, which the Government’s amendment proposes, or “We had not really thought about it,” or “We are is unnecessary because of the serious harm test that will doing this for no other reason than that we are under already exist in clause 1. The clause will simply have the political pressure from A, B or C, and we have decided effect of ensuring that libel claims brought by corporations to ask our Government troops to do something else.” generate satellite litigation and become more costly. Special damages claims are expensive to try, more 2.15 pm complicated and far less easy to settle. Those who chose I do not think that is a proper way to create the law of to defend libel claims brought by corporations, but who England. If we want to adjust the law of defamation we ultimately fail, will have an even bigger bill to pay. can, of course, do so; Parliament is sovereign and it can The clause as amended—if the Government have do that as and when it sees fit to do so. On the whole, their way—will not achieve its aims because usually the however, Parliament and this Government will be better more damaging a libel, the more likely a corporation is respected if they do so on the basis of having thought to try to silence its critics. There are remarkably few about the matter and having relied on the evidence that cases of the kind that are cited as examples of bullying, supports their case, as opposed to running harum-scarum which keep being repeated and repeated—Wilmshurst 917 Defamation Bill24 APRIL 2013 Defamation Bill 918 and GE Healthcare are two cases that are cited. I know Sir Edward Garnier: Although my hon. Friend was from my experience and listening to others who know a not here at the beginning of the debate, I will, if I may, little bit about this area of law, that the number of cases permit him to intervene. involving corporate plaintiffs is remarkably few. Sir Peter Bottomley: My hon. and learned Friend is Robert Flello: Would the hon. and learned Gentleman absolutely right, but as soon as I saw that he was on his not accept, however, that what we hear time and time feet, I came as fast as I could, dropping everything else. again is that cases do not get to court because of the Last week I voted the way I intend to vote this week. bullying by corporations at an early stage? People give in straight away or, more often—as in the Serco case, which I think Baroness Hayter raised yesterday in the Sir Edward Garnier: At least you’re consistent. other place—newspapers face the difficult decision of whether to pursue something that might end up being Sir Peter Bottomley: And I still think I am right. Can challenged, even if they are citing the truth. my hon. and learned Friend give some examples of where corporations have taken defamation or libel cases Sir Edward Garnier: The hon. Gentleman no doubt that were necessary and could not have been dealt with makes a correct factual point, but I think he exaggerates in another way? As he says, the problem with illustrative it. The number of cases involving corporate claimants is cases is that they do not always make good law, but the small and the damages they recover, absent special cases involving Dr Peter Wilmshurst and Simon Singh damages, is low. Damages to trading reputation alone were examples of how the law did not bring justice probably attract £20,000 at the top end and usually no within a time scale and for an amount of money that more than £10,000, so we are not talking about hugely ordinary people or publishers can afford. extravagant damages claims. Allegations of bullying can be made against anybody Sir Edward Garnier: Obviously I cannot give my hon. who has more money than the person they are suing. Friend a catalogue of cases one way or the other. What Jimmy Goldsmith, now long dead, sued about 100 I can tell him is that if clause 1 is amended as he always distributors—I was involved in the case in a junior wanted and as the Government now want, the case of capacity—such as WH Smith, Menzies and so forth. He Wilmshurst, in which he was sued by NMT Medical, issued proceedings in his dispute with “Private Eye”. It would probably pass the “serious financial loss” hurdle. was suggested by those defendants that he was doing it If my hon. Friend thinks that he is helping Dr Wilmshurst to shut them down—to prevent them from distributing or those like him by amending the Bill in that way, I am a newspaper. afraid he is wrong. If he wants to lock future Dr Wilmshursts into satellite litigation about “serious financial Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): He was! loss”, then make my day, as they say. That will be the unintended consequence of what is going happen. Sir Edward Garnier: The Court of Appeal disagreed As I said last week and as was said in the other place with that and said—the case is called Sperrings, if the yesterday, the great and sadly late Lord Bingham said in hon. Lady is interested—that there was no basis for the case of Jameel that corporations have trading suggesting that Jimmy Goldsmith was misconducting reputations that ought to be worthy of protection. A himself, albeit that a reasonable person could comment corporation’s trading reputation is a thing of value. that he was using his financial wealth to bully those However, the Government and those who support them defendants. The same could be said of Robert Maxwell, on this particular volte face confuse themselves because who stole Daily Mirror employees’ money in order to they have separated out—no doubt for well intentioned run libel actions against every Tom, Dick and Harry he reasons—non-trading companies and trading companies could lay his fingers on. for the purposes of the amendment to clause 1. However, What is the difference between complaints about trading companies have different types of reputation, as financial wealth or strength in the hands of individuals Mr Justice Tugendhat said in the case of Thornton last being used to bully defendants, compared with financial year. Individuals—and certainly companies—have different wealth in the hands of corporate claimants being used segments of their reputation that are susceptible to to do that? If the case is an abuse—if it does not come being defamed. within the terms of the currently unamended clause I used the example of the BBC last night on “The 1—the court will stop it. However, what has happened World Tonight”, at about quarter past 10. The BBC is a is that a general case has been built up, but on the basis large trading corporation. It sells things for profit— of about two, three or four cases—I congratulate the programmes—but it has another reputation as a source campaigners and those who have seduced my hon. of unbiased and disinterested news reporting. It has Friend and the Opposition into believing that what they another reputation as a supporter of good causes such are doing is in the public interest. That is illogical, as Children in Need and another reputation as an although it has been highly effective politically—you employer. I could libel the BBC in its trading capacity can perhaps hear from the frustration in my voice, Mr and it might or might not overcome the hurdle that Deputy Speaker, that I recognise defeat when I see it. I clause 1, as about to be amended, would present. However, am about to be defeated, because the Government have I could also accuse it of being, let us say, a hotbed of or simply whipped the people who voted one way last week a magnet for child sex abusers. That would not necessarily to vote another way this week. cause it serious financial loss, but it would most certainly defame the BBC and undermine its reputation as a Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Will my place to be employed or a place to go and visit. Despite hon. and learned Friend give way? the fact that that would cause it serious reputational 919 Defamation Bill24 APRIL 2013 Defamation Bill 920 loss, the BBC would be unable to vindicate its reputation, Old and ill-tempered Members of Parliament, whether because it would be unable to show serious financial they represent Worthing or Harborough, must draw loss. their remarks to a conclusion at some stage so I shall do It strikes me that as I begin to repeat myself and say that now. I do so, however, with acute disappointment, what I said last week— and I think the Government are letting themselves down.

Sir Peter Bottomley: That’s age. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sir Edward Garnier: My hon. and very elderly Friend Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) is clearly experienced says, “That’s age.” Well, he has more experience of— in these matters, but he is not satisfied by the conclusion Hon. Members: Ooh! reached by the two Houses after a huge amount of consideration over a very long period, with attempts by Sir Peter Bottomley: It is true. everybody to achieve maximum consensus. I understand his point that Parliament works by doing a deal at the Sir Edward Garnier: It is true, it is justifiable and I do end of the day. A Government—any Government—have not even have to— to get a Bill through both Houses of Parliament, and for a long time no single party has had a majority in the Sir Peter Bottomley: It is privileged, too. House of Lords. The House of Lords has often intervened to say that it does not like what the House of Commons Sir Edward Garnier: It is all sorts of things and it will is doing, and there have been one, two or three attempts not cause my hon. Friend financial loss, but he will still at the end of the Session to see whether we can reach a be able to sue me if I repeat it outside—assuming that point of conciliation. That is what has happened in this accusing somebody of my hon. Friend’s distinction of case. being elderly were defamatory. But anyhow, I digress—I My hon. and learned Friend and I might agree that am amused to be digressed by my hon. Friend, because we ought to have a system that always gives the final he is an amusing and diverting person. vote on Third Reading of a Bill to the elected House at I will not call a Division this afternoon, because I can the end of discussions. I hope I can persuade colleagues do a bit of arithmetic and also because by not calling a on the Procedure Committee to eventually come forward vote I will create more embarrassment for the Government. with such proposals, but that is for another day. I urge them to think carefully about what they think they are doing, why they have done it, and whether they can justify what they have done. Are they able to answer Sir Edward Garnier: I do not suggest that what is accusations of backstairs deals, and allegations of being done today is unconstitutional; I say simply that incoherence or producing a measure that will have huge it is incoherent and foolish. and unintended consequences of deleterious effect? Simon Hughes: I understood that and I will say why I 2.30 pm think the measure is a reasonable last change that the The Government are making the law of England in a House should support. I wish to pay tribute to several wholly non-party political area. This is a technical issue people, including Lord Lester of Herne Hill who introduced about the proper regulation of libel law. If they wish to a private Member’s Bill to Parliament some years ago go on and make a fool of themselves, fair enough. I and in many ways triggered this reform of our defamation cannot stop them. I do not have the votes behind me, legislation. I also pay tribute to my noble Friend Lord albeit that exactly the same Members of Parliament McNally, who has steered a controversial Bill through were behind me last week, one of whom was my hon. many stages. He referred in his speech yesterday to the Friend—not my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing fact that it has been through the pre-legislative stage West, but the Minister on the Front Bench. If the and the legislative stage. It has been considered by the Government wish to go ahead—fair enough, I cannot Liberal Democrat party; there were conference debates stop them. However, I regret today’s state of affairs and resolutions were passed on it, and there have also which I think is unwise, and the Government are being been many cross-party conversations. very silly. I congratulate those who have supported this I was a little troubled that the hon. Member for campaign on pulling this particular rabbit out of the Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) was slightly churlish hat at this late stage, but in the end they will no doubt about the point we have reached. His party and mine, as have little to congratulate themselves on, and the courts well as the Conservatives and Cross Benchers, have will be full of satellite litigation about the definition of worked together on the threshold for dealing with corporate “serious financial loss.” claims, and we have made progress on that. Therefore, When I asked the Minister about the difference between today is progress along the lines that he wanted, and serious financial loss and substantial financial loss or that he knows colleagues from all three parties wanted. harm, she said simply that I would be able to answer He pretends to be naïve—which he is not—about the that question better myself. If that is what she said— way these things work, whether or not there is a coalition Government. At the end of a political process in Parliament, Mrs Grant indicated dissent. negotiations take place in the public light and also behind the scenes. As he knows perfectly well, that has Sir Edward Garnier: She is shaking her head to say happened with all three parties to try to get to the most she did not, but I am not sure that is an answer to the agreeable and consensual place. My party has been as question. The Government should come to the Dispatch much a part of that process as the Labour party and the Box and have a coherent case to make, but they do not. Conservatives in arriving at this point. 921 Defamation Bill24 APRIL 2013 Defamation Bill 922

[Simon Hughes] should declare that I have been successful in three major defamation actions, and I hope I shall not have to take The Minister rightly says that this is not about what is another. known as the Derbyshire principle. For those outside I want to tell the story of Richard Doll, who drank the House who have no clue what that is, in essence—I too much college beer when applying to study mathematics do not pretend to be legalistic about this—it is a principle at Trinity college, Cambridge. He did not get chosen, so enunciated by the courts in a case to do with a local he went to St Thomas’ instead. He had an interest in authority, which effectively stated that local authorities asthma and lung diseases. In 1950, he did a quick study cannot generally sue to protect their reputation because on whether motor fumes or tarmac caused lung cancer, they are public authorities. However, as I think everybody as was suspected at the time. He and his colleague, has agreed in both Houses, common law will evolve, Bradford Hill, discovered that the common factor was which does not stop it being dealt with by further smoking. They did not show until 1955 beyond any judgments of the courts across the United Kingdom. In doubt what had first been suspected by German scientists light of the Localism Act 2011, there may be further in the 1930s, namely that, if a person smokes 25 cigarettes definitions of a public authority that seek to deal with a day, their chances of developing lung cancer or associated the issue of a private body that does public authority serious illnesses increased by 25 or 50 times—I forget work. That business remains unaltered by the Lords the actual figure. amendment. If the too-frequent current habit of commercial The Lords amendment, which has returned to this companies suing for damage had been prevalent when House in a form I hope will be accepted, would provide Richard Doll published his material, I suspect that the one additional hurdle for people who are seeking as tobacco companies would have shut him down. When companies to use this country’s defamation legislation. he later came out with the proposed link, which was It states: proved, between asbestos and serious lung conditions, “For the purposes of this section, harm to the reputation of a the same thing might have happened. One vital question body that trades for profit—” is how we protect scientific speculation and the publishing therefore not a body that makes no profit— of preliminary findings without the risk of action. “is not “serious harm” unless it has caused or is likely to cause the I believe we should accept the Lords amendments in body serious financial loss.” lieu because they give conditions in which court authority I heard the previous speech and we can debate whether is necessary if the action is to start. There is one that is the perfect wording. It is, however, a clear statement condition by which the court “must” rule action out. I that there must be “serious financial loss”before someone hope the courts realise that they “may” disqualify such gets to a position from which they can win a defamation action on other grounds. There is a “must”, but the case. The Government rejected the idea of a pre-hearing. measure leaves open the “may” option for disqualifying I understand that and think they were right because it cases. would have meant going round the courts twice. The Government have accepted that the bar for Sir Edward Garnier: Beyond clause 1—the serious companies should be higher than that for individuals, harm test—we have clause 6, on peer-reviewed statements which I am sure is right. That measure is meant to deal in scientific or academic journals. Clause 6 comes to the with the sort of cases that my hon. Friend the Member aid of scientists or medical experts such as Professor for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) alluded to Doll if they make statements of that nature that are where in the past individuals were clobbered by companies published in a peer-reviewed magazine or whatever, but with huge resources and assets in a way regarded as there are plenty of other ways in which they could be totally unfair. As Lord McNally pointed out yesterday assisted, such as through the common law, other measures in the House of Lords, not only have we now, I hope, in the Bill and earlier Defamation Acts. protected the little person in financial terms against the big corporate giant, we have also done things to protect Sir Peter Bottomley: Indeed—that is why my hon. academic reputations and academic dispute, and to and learned Friend’s career will not be interrupted by allow that to go on without the threat of defamation. the passage of the Bill. Plenty of people will seek his We have also, I hope, made the law clearer and brought advice. The condition in the proposed new clause in lieu it up to date. states: The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South said that “(2) The permission of the court must be obtained in order to if the Labour party returns to government, it may wish bring an action…(3) The court must strike out an application to return to these matters, and I suppose any Government under subsection (2) unless” may want to do that. In this country, however, we it can show X, Y and Z. My point is that the courts also understandably do not reform defamation law—generally have a “may” power, which I hope they use. a cross-party exercise—very frequently. This is a major piece of legislation and I hope that we have dealt with The Trafigura event, which involved super-injunctions, the last tricky issue in a way that provides greater was another example of people trying to shut down protection for the individual against the big corporate. I public knowledge, inquiry, discussion and debate. think that is a job well done in both Houses of this Parliament. Sir Edward Garnier: That was a matter of confidence, not libel. Sir Peter Bottomley: I apologise for not being present at the start of the debate, and I am grateful to Sir Peter Bottomley: I am aware of that—my hon. my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough and learned Friend is guiding me into making my (Sir Edward Garnier) for introducing my interest. I speech longer than I had intended. 923 Defamation Bill 24 APRIL 2013 924

When I was appointed to the Joint Committee on the draft Defamation Bill, I had hoped that the Government Opposition Day and their Law Officers would introduce positive proposals that went further than the Bill and that gave more [UNALLOTTED HALF DAY] power to people to speculate in public, defend their arguments and themselves. Defamation provides limits Agricultural Wages Board in that context. When I had to take defamation action, I did so as a 2.46 pm private individual. What was said about me made such action necessary—I was labelled, in effect, as a paedophile Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): I beg to move, on the front page of a major Sunday paper. It struck me That this House notes that the Agricultural Wages Board that it was not true, not privileged and damaging, and (AWB) was set up in 1948 to provide a fair wage and skills therefore that it provided justification for action. Auberon structure for agricultural workers; recognises that it is used as a Waugh made a living for four years out of calling me all benchmark for other employment in the food industry and that it sorts of things under the sun. One journalist said, “Why was the only wages council not to be scrapped in the 1980s; further notes that around a quarter of agricultural workers live in don’t you sue him?” I said, “First, I don’t mind; secondly, tied accommodation and that casual seasonal workers may move it might be true; and, thirdly, it is not compulsory to around the country; regrets that the Welsh Government’s wish to sue.” It would be fair if those who take defamation retain the AWB has been ignored by the Government; condemns action justified why they were taking it, so that they do the Government for its abolition of the AWB, which took place not just pile up costs, which can become too great. after just four weeks consultation and will take £260 million out of the rural economy over the next 10 years, lead to a race to the I should return to my earlier point. What comes bottom on wages in rural areas, reduce living standards and before peer review? Suppose I am a scientist or someone impoverish rural workers, exacerbating social deprivation and else who suspects that there is a link between a commercial harming social inclusion; further regrets that hon. Members product and a bad consequence. I should not have to could not debate that issue as part of the Enterprise and Regulatory keep absolutely silent about it until I have managed to Reform Bill; and calls on the Government to drop its plans to do a research study, which would involve getting the abolish the AWB. funding for the research study, finishing it, delivering it Last week, the House abolished the Agricultural Wages to the magazine so it can send it to other publications, Board without debate and without a vote. The AWB and getting permission to make it public. Speculation sets the pay and conditions for 152,000 farm workers in requires people having the ability to speak more openly, England and Wales. That shoddy little manoeuvre was but perhaps not always with certainty—they may have the result of Government desperation to force through to put their views in terms of speculation rather than of the board’s abolition in the teeth of opposition from my direct accusations. colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government, workers’ We have had the recent case—it is now finished—of representatives and many farmers. Perhaps it was also the fraud related to the device that was supposed to the result of a fear of another coalition split or Back-Bench detect improvised explosives. If someone had spoken revolt. Today, the Opposition are allowing Back Benchers up against that company long before there was evidence the chance to debate and vote on that abolition—a vote for the court case, would they have faced a defamation the Government denied them last week. action? We should remember that many magazines and Like today’s debate, other debates on the subject have newspapers do not have a great deal of money. been sparsely attended by Government Back Benchers. If we accept the Lords amendment and pass the Bill, Perhaps they flinch from defending an ideological decision we will have done good, but not enough. I therefore that will impoverish hundreds, and in some cases thousands, make a plea to the Minister—she does not need to of their hard-working constituents who work the land. answer this point today—to work out how the relevant We know that the Secretary of State for Environment, Departments can, either by themselves or by proxy, Food and Rural Affairs traps squirrels on his estate. His monitor defamation actions. They should have studies Liberal Democrats colleagues should beware the political that report on the kinds of actions that are being taken, traps that he enjoys setting for his coalition partners. In the writs that are being issued, the writs that are served opposition, the Minister of State supported a motion having been issued, and the results—whether there is a that warned that abolishing the AWB would settlement or whatever. “impoverish the rural working class”. My last question—having not given notice to the Today, he and his colleagues once again act as midwives Minister, I do not necessarily expect an answer now—is to Tory dogma that will make thousands of people in this. If tomorrow, for the first time, Paul Dacre printed their constituencies worse off—1,020 people in the Minister’s on the front page of the Daily Mail the names of those constituency and 1,120 people in the Secretary of State’s who are thought to have murdered Stephen Lawrence, constituency. would either the new press code or the Bill allow those The abolition of the AWB is wrong on three counts. accused to take action? Could they say that such a First, it will take money out of workers’ pockets and publication was improper? It was certainly unusual and out of rural high streets at a time when the economy rare when it happened, but I reckon it was in the public needs it most. The abolition does nothing to reduce the interest. That is the kind of permission or liberty that deficit; it could even increase the deficit by adding to our media ought to be able to take, and I am glad Paul the welfare bill, because workers pushed into poverty Dacre did so on that occasion. pay will claim more in-work benefits and lose the incentive Question put and agreed. to gain new skills. Secondly, the abolition is bad for our food industry. A race to the bottom on pay will not help to attract the new recruits the industry needs. Thirdly, the abolition is bad regulatory reform because, 925 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 926

[Mary Creagh] are keen for us to continue the schemes to bring them in from eastern Europe. They will not be able to get the paradoxically, it will increase the burden of employment staff if, as she suggests, they cut their pay. regulation on small farmers, meaning that many more of them could end up in employment tribunals. Ministers’ Mary Creagh: I will be talking in detail about the incompetence will result in lower pay, higher welfare seasonal agricultural workers scheme. I just say to the spending and more regulation, and it will deepen the right hon. Gentleman that 1,610 people in his constituency recession in the rural high streets they represent. will be affected by the reduction in pay. I do not know whether he has read the Department for Environment, First, let us look at how the measure will take money Food and Rural Affairs impact assessment that was off low-paid workers. The AWB protects pay and conditions conducted when he was the Minister; I certainly have. It for 152,000 farm workers in England and Wales. states that 42,000 casual workers are likely to see their pay default to the national minimum wage when their Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): Does my hon. current employment comes to an end. The cost to the Friend share my concern that among those working on rural economy that the Department for Business, Innovation the land are people like me and many others in and Skills impact assessment estimates—there are varying Northamptonshire whose first experience of work, under figures—are to do with the direct loss of wages, holiday the age of 16, was picking fruit on the farms in rural pay and sick pay out of workers’ pockets. Northamptonshire? This will have a particular impact on them because they are not covered by the minimum Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Will the hon. wage. Lady identify what is special about agriculture? Is it that farmers want to exploit their workers, or should there Mary Creagh: Absolutely. With the abolition of the be protection for people in retail, catering and other AWB, there will be no minimum wage for children such industries? under the age of 16 who are picking fruit or driving tractors at weekends and in the summer holidays. When Mary Creagh: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman, one thinks about the amount of money a tractor is with 380 workers who will be affected in his constituency, worth, and how such work could become a route into is asking me what is special about agriculture; I believe farming for some young people, it will certainly cap that he is a farmer, so he might stand up and tell me. their access to that employment. Agriculture is different because people are often living As well as the 152,000 who are directly covered by the in rural isolation; they may have their home provided by board, a similar number have their wages set against their employer, which puts them in a uniquely vulnerable the AWB benchmark, including equestrian workers in position; and, as the right hon. Member for South East the racing and leisure industries, estate workers and Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice) said, they are brought gamekeepers. Nearly every constituency in the country in from countries where English is not their first language— has some people who will be affected, including more perhaps they do not speak English at all—and are not than 50 people in Wakefield. The board sets fair wages, in a position to negotiate. Those are three reasons for holiday pay, sick pay and overtime. It has six grades, starters, but I am happy to come back to that. and the lowest grade is just 2p an hour more than the Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): My hon. national minimum wage. Friend’s speech is hitting exactly the right notes. Has the former Minister, the right hon. Member for South East Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Does my Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), not just given the hon. Friend agree that this is another pernicious, shoddy game away? This measure is about getting eastern little policy by the Government, who are ideologically Europeans into the country to pay them poverty wages driven to cut the wages of ordinary working people? far below those that anybody else would possibly want. Mary Creagh: They are certainly driven by ideology, Mary Creagh: I will look at that in detail later, but we although the ideology of the Minister of State seems to do not want either a race to the bottom on wages or a have changed from when he was a Back Bencher, now great increase in the amount that employers charge that he enjoys the privilege of a Government car. I do workers for their tied accommodation—their hot bed in not know what has changed for him. a caravan—which will mean that they end up effectively Without the AWB, farm workers will be worse off. As working for below national minimum wage and undercut my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) British workers out of the market. said, there will be no minimum wage for children under 16. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Seasonal workers will lose their entitlement to their own Cleveland) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making an excellent bed, which is currently guaranteed by the board. The case. One point covered by the AWB that scares me is cap on the amount employers can charge workers for workers’ sick pay and terms and conditions. At the tied accommodation, currently £4.82 a day for a caravan, moment, sick pay ranges from £150 to £250. Once the will be removed. Some 42,000 casual workers will see AWB has gone, employers will have to pay sick pay at their pay cut to the minimum wage as soon as they only statutory minimum terms of just more than £85. finish their current job. The rest will see their wages That is a direct hit on workers, a quarter of whom are eroded over time. over 55 years old. Sir James Paice (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Mary Creagh: That is right, and we all know that as What evidence does the hon. Lady have for her statement we get older we are more prone to illness. A further that all those casual workers will see their pay cut reason why farming is different is that people are expected immediately at the end of their contracts? Farmers are to work antisocial hours and long hours out in what can desperate to get casual workers, and that is why they be very difficult conditions. We saw that with the flooding 927 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 928 last year and when farmers and their employees had to Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): dig lambs out of the snow in the very cold winter we Many times during the passage of the Gangmasters have just had. (Licensing) Act 2004, I and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) met the Mr Spencer rose— National Farmers Union, employers and all the major people employed in the farming industry, all of whom Mary Creagh: I will give way later, but I would like to recognised the valuable contribution of the AWB. Perhaps make some progress. today we can find out who is the driving force behind its The Government’s own figures suggest that up to abolition. Employers do not want to get rid of it. £280 million could be lost over 10 years in wages and in holiday and sick pay—a quarter of a billion pounds Mary Creagh: That is very interesting. I was just reading taken out of areas represented mainly by the parties on some of the responses to the consultation. One farmer the Government Benches, where the cost of living is said: estimated to be approximately £3,000 more than for “I am a farmer with 3 employees. The annual AWB wage those living in urban areas. Up to £35 million a year award has been an invaluable tool to help determine wage awards...We could be lost in wages alone—again, those figures are are overburdened with enthusiastic government departments issuing taken from the Department for Business, Innovation guidance rules & legislation...The annual guidance for the level of and Skills impact assessment. wage awards is one of the few useful tools”. I want to know what happens when money is taken Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is quite clear that from rural families on the breadline. Who will pick up the proposal to abolish the AWB is not driven by a the tab? People with children will have recourse to worry that it holds pay back or conditions down. income-related benefits, such as tax credits, council tax benefit and housing benefit. Reducing rural workers to the poverty line will take money out of workers’ pockets Sir James Paice: Yes, it is. and transfer it directly to their employers. We, the taxpayer, will pick up the in-work welfare bill. That Andrew George: If the Government are arguing that will add to the deficit. As a strategy for rural growth it is being abolished to enhance pay and conditions, we and deficit reduction, this thoughtless abolition will be will hear that from the Front Bench in a moment. Does catastrophic. the hon. Lady agree that we do not want simply to go the lowest common denominator? My second point is that the abolition will be bad for the food industry; it goes against business needs. Britain’s biggest manufacturing industry, the food production Mary Creagh: I have been making that point repeatedly. sector, needs more skilled workers. Instead, the Government The hon. Gentleman has 1,110 people in his constituency are encouraging employers to race to the bottom on who will be affected. I am afraid that we heard some pay. That will see skilled workers turn their backs on the noises off from the right hon. Member for South East industry—and become MPs instead! Cambridgeshire; he said, “It is,” so it seems that coalition divisions are once more being exposed, as I thought There are 2.5 million unemployed people in the United they would be. I look forward to having a chat with the Kingdom, 1 million of whom are young people. There hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) in our are 25 million unemployed people in the European Lobby during tonight’s vote. Union, yet the horticulture industry still says that it needs to bring in workers under the seasonal agricultural I want to return to the role of the major supermarkets, workers scheme because it cannot find reliable British which have silently supported the abolition of the AWB. workers. It simply defies economic logic to suggest that Even the farm manager of the Duchy of Cornwall, a race to the bottom on pay is the way to attract the which supplies Waitrose, responded to the consultation skilled new entrants that the industry needs. in support of abolition. The Duchy Originals website talks about food that “is good” and “does good” and says that it raises money for charity, but rural workers Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): Is the hon. should not have to rely on charity to feed their families Lady unaware or simply ignoring the fact that the AWB at the end of the week. Today’s figures on food banks, was debated at length during the consideration of the many of which are springing up in rural areas, give the Public Bodies Bill in both Houses of Parliament? Secondly, lie to the fact that there is any overpayment in rural is she aware of the impact assessment’s conclusion that areas. current wage levels are generally above the minimum, and that, with wage-setting practices and modern working The supermarkets trumpet their commitment to fair practices in agriculture, wages are unlikely to be eroded, trade, but why is that only for workers in developing as farmers will need to attract their workers? That was countries? Why not here? They trumpet their corporate its conclusion. social responsibility programmes in communities, yet are silent when it comes to reducing pay in their own Mary Creagh: I am delighted that the right hon. Lady supply chains. I quote again from the responses to the refers to the AWB and the Public Bodies Bill, the consultation. A vegetable producer in the north-west so-called bonfire of the quangos. The Bill certainly said: brought her a degree of notoriety, as it contained her “We are unfortunately in an industry where we are seeing proposals to sell off the forests and scrap protection for increasing pressure from retailers to lower prices of supply of farm workers. She mentions the impact assessment. I produce,” am just quoting the Government’s figures: their estimate and added that is as high as £280 million over 10 years, or with a best “some of our produce price returns are no higher in 2012 than estimate of £260 million. they were over 10 years ago.” 929 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 930

[Mary Creagh] who decided to abolish the AWB by tacking it on to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill—a regulatory This has real implications for the sustainability of the reform that could therefore bypass the Welsh Government. food supply chain and the UK’s self-sufficiency, which His Department conducted a pitifully short, four-week has already fallen to about 55%, making us much more consultation. Let us remember that there was a full vulnerable to global shocks. The supermarkets have got 12-week consultation on banning ash trees from Europe to start thinking long term. We supported the Government’s four months after Ministers were first told that ash creation of the groceries code adjudicator, although we dieback disease was here. We can see where this Secretary would have preferred an ombudsman. We want fairness of State’s priorities lie—apart from the squirrels. He is in the supply chain, but that does not stop with the swift to take money from workers’ pockets and hand it horticultural businesses. It has to feed down to the level back to their bosses, but slow to defend the natural of the individual workers as well. environment.

Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I am grateful to Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend my hon. Friend for the case she is making. The Conservative recognise that the Secretary of State represents a border party was once seen as the party of the countryside, but constituency? If, as expected, the Labour-controlled does not the Government’s shoddy behaviour demonstrate Welsh Assembly maintains the AWB at its own expense, just who in the countryside it really stands up for? members of the farming community in his constituency would have to travel only one or two miles, potentially, Mary Creagh: Absolutely. It is not even clear whom to get a better deal. He will have a skills shortage in his they support in the countryside, though. I have quoted own constituency. some farmers opposed to abolition. It is a bit of a mystery who actually wants it. The right hon. Member Mary Creagh: Absolutely. The Secretary of State has for South East Cambridgeshire has left the Chamber, so not only 1,120 agricultural workers, but a food bank, in we will never know. his constituency, so that is an excellent point very well made. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I am listening carefully to the hon. Lady’s case, which makes it clear Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I that she disagrees very strongly with the abolition of the apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker, for being late into the AWB. The Opposition likewise made their opposition Chamber and further apologise if my point has already clear when other wages boards were abolished in the been mentioned. I want to highlight to my hon. Friend 1990s, none of which was brought back during the that not long after the previous Labour Government 13 years of Labour government. Will she give us an introduced the national minimum wage, the Conservative absolute commitment that, if the Labour party forms party called for the abolition of the AWB, saying that the next Government, the AWB will be returned forthwith? the national minimum wage would cover it, which clearly Will she give us that guarantee? it would not.

Mary Creagh: If the hon. Gentleman is so keen to Mary Creagh: Clearly, the national minimum wage retain the AWB—I know that many in his constituency, does not cover it all, which is why it was not abolished including the Farmers’ Union of Wales, are against under various previous Tory Governments. Various abolition—I hope that that will be reflected in his Conservative Prime Ministers understood that if someone’s voting on our side this evening. house was provided by their employer, they were in a I want to deal with the regulatory burdens that could uniquely vulnerable position when it came to negotiating fall on farmers. We have considered the history behind their wages. the AWB’s abolition. The board has survived until now Many small farmers want to keep the AWB so that thanks to my colleagues in the Welsh Assembly they do not have to become employment specialists. Government, who listened to their constituents and They want to get on with running their business. Instead, were totally against getting rid of it. Constitutionally, this change will add to their regulatory burden. The abolition required consent, and they refused to give it. Farmers’ Union of Wales, where 12,000 workers are covered by the AWB, opposes abolition. It has said: Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) “Many farms in Wales run with relatively few staff, or indeed (PC): The motion notes that it is with family labour. The Agricultural Wages Board is considered “the Welsh Government’s wish to retain the AWB”. an important means of avoiding potential conflict and lengthy negotiations with individual members of staff.” Scotland and Northern Ireland can keep their AWBs, of course. Is the hon. Lady making the case, therefore, for Without the AWB, each farm business owner will have a reserved powers model for the Welsh Government? to negotiate terms and conditions annually with its work force. They will make mistakes, as employers sometimes do, and might end up in employment tribunals Mary Creagh: I think the hon. Gentleman has made as a result. that case very well himself. We expect an announcement from our colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government, I want to quote again from one of the consultation but they have made a commitment to retain the functions responses. A farmer in Kings Lynn said: of the AWB in Wales. We will see what that delivers over “I disagree strongly with the abolition of the Agricultural time. Wages Order...the last thing I want to do with my limited management time is to negotiate wages with my 6 full-time and up to 30 part- All was quiet until the appointment of the Secretary time workers some of whom have worked for me for 30 to of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the 40 years and have a strong personal relationship with me. I do not right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), want to damage this by having to negotiate wages with them.” 931 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 932

The hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) asked The AWB was set up by the Attlee Government in why farming was different. I think that that answers his 1948. Even Mrs Thatcher did not abolish it. She understood question. that if someone’s home comes with their job, they are in We have talked about gangmasters and licensing and, a uniquely weak negotiating position with their employer. before I conclude, I want to touch briefly on the issue of However, last week’s Bill ended nearly 100 years of workers’ accommodation. The Government’s impact protection for farm workers. In the Labour party, we assessment indicates that 25,500 farm workers have a believe that the people who pick the fruit should also be house or cottage provided by their employer, and that able to buy it in the shops, and not have to rely on food another 4,700 live in other accommodation, such as banks to feed themselves and their children. As many caravans. The agricultural wages order defines “other” farmers themselves have said, in their responses to the accommodation and guarantees all farm workers that it consultation, this decision will not secure a stable and is fit for human habitation, safe and secure, and that prosperous future for the food and farming industry or every worker should have a bed for their sole use and be for those who work in it. The Prime Minister once said provided with suitable and sufficient free drinking water that we were all in it together, but time after time, and sanitation. ordinary working people are first in his firing line. If Members want a rural living wage, they should vote Abolishing the AWB will remove those guarantees on with the Labour party this afternoon. If they are happy housing for farm workers. The accommodation will no with poverty pay for their constituents, they should longer have to be fit for human habitation, safe or vote with the Government. secure. Workers will not be guaranteed a bed for their sole use, and there will be no requirement to provide 3.14 pm drinking water or sanitation. I should like to cite the case of one of the firms that wrote in support of the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and AWB’s abolition, Suffolk Mushrooms. Last year, the Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): I am grateful to the firm was fined £10,000 for failing to have a safety hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) for securing certificate for the boiler in the men’s accommodation, a debate on this issue. I acknowledge the strong feelings and for various hazardous working practices that put that she has expressed, but I am firmly convinced that workers’ lives at risk, including leaving high-level safety the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board is in the gates open. After the case was won, the Health and best interests of all those working in the industry. It will Safety Executive inspector, John Claxton, said: provide simplification and greater flexibility, thereby “Suffolk Mushrooms invested more than £1.5 million refurbishing encouraging investment, growth and job opportunities its factory and mushroom growing equipment, yet failed to spend in the sector. even a few hundred pounds to keep its employees safe”. Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State explain exactly how the board’s abolition will Mrs Spelman: Obviously the laws already exist to create job opportunities? Will it happen by driving enable the Health and Safety Executive to fine employers, down wages? in every sector of the economy, when they break the law. Does the hon. Lady not accept that she is perpetrating Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that the myth that farmers set out to exploit their workers? early intervention. If she gives me a chance, I will The vast majority of farmers listening to the debate explain my case. I take a completely contrasting view to today would be affronted by that suggestion. hers. I have a positive view of agriculture and I see an expanding demand for labour in the countryside. I Mary Creagh: That was a good effort from the right believe that the current minimum wage arrangements hon. Lady. The HSE will clearly continue to exist, but I will give protection to those at the lower end of the am citing a case that happened last year, not at some scale, but I am absolutely convinced—because it is other point in time. I ask her whether she thinks that happening already—that the overwhelming number of conditions will get worse or better when the AWB is employees in the sector will be paid well above the abolished. minimum wage. Let me make my case; I might be able to convince her. A successful agricultural industry will contribute to George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): The the growth of the wider rural economy, which is one of Agricultural Wages Board existed when that case came the four key objectives of my Department. Agriculture to light, so it clearly did not create the defence that the is vital for the UK. It produces much of the food that hon. Lady suggested it might. we eat and supports other industries that add nearly £90 billion to our economy. The food supply chain employs Mary Creagh: The question for the hon. Gentleman nearly 4 million people and includes the largest is whether conditions will get worse or better when the manufacturing sector in the UK. Exports of agricultural provisions are removed. Will they be better or worse for food and drink have seen seven years of continuous a worker who does not have a bed guaranteed for their export growth and were worth £18 billion in 2011. sole use? Opposition Members already know of conditions There are huge opportunities for further growth within in which people are hot-bedding. Is that what we want agriculture to meet the demands of feeding the world’s to see in our farming industry? I certainly do not, and I population as it grows from 6 billion to 9 billion. We am sure that the majority of farmers do not, but there want to ensure that the UK industry is in the forefront will now be no legal requirement for an individual to of meeting those demands, and we are already doing a have their own bed. I think that that is wrong; does the great deal to help to ensure the success of the industry. hon. Gentleman? An example is the joint Department for Business, Innovation 933 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 934

[Mr Paterson] Why did they not re-establish the rubber-proof garment- making industry wages council? This is the last throwback and Skills-Department for Environment, Food and Rural to an era during which these sort of councils did, I am Affairs agri-tech strategy, which will provide a framework sure, a worthy job, but we now have a free and expanding for research and the development of technologies. It market and demand for labour in the countryside. To will support growth through encouraging the global answer his question directly, I am absolutely confident uptake of world-class UK-based agri-science and associated that wages will be well above those currently set by the technologies, stimulating their translation into high-tech AWB. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says “If”, agricultural systems in the UK. We are working on the but it is not a question of “if”: wages are currently well design of the new rural development programme, which above those levels. we will use to develop professional skills, including business management and risk awareness, across the Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) agriculture and forestry sectors. (Con): I absolutely share my right hon. Friend’s confidence in the future of agriculture. As he will know, in Herefordshire Tom Blenkinsop: I am sure that the Secretary of State we have a thriving agricultural sector, and it will be all will be telling all this to the workers on his estate, but the more enhanced by broadband. Does he share my will he tell the House how many of the people on his surprise that despite its denunciation of the measure, estate will be affected by the termination of the AWB? the Labour party is unwilling to state whether it would restore the Agricultural Wages Board? Mr Paterson: I have to disappoint the hon. Gentleman by telling him that I do not have an estate, and that I do Mr Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who not have any direct employees who take the agricultural picks up on the earlier question that the shadow Secretary wage. of State singularly failed to answer. On my hon. Friend’s behalf, I pose this question to her: if a Labour Government I shall take up my case again. In addition, I want to were to be elected after the next election, would the give businesses the tools they need to have the confidence AWB exist? Will they bring in legislation to re-establish to invest, adopt and benefit from innovative technologies an agricultural wages board? and farming practices. Mary Creagh: The right hon. Gentleman asks me a Andrew George: Those tools will be extremely helpful, direct question. We are two years away from the next especially for research and development, but in relation election, and I am sure he will be looking forward with to today’s debate, will my right hon. Friend tell me great eagerness to our manifesto. We will look at all whether he thinks that agricultural wages and conditions measures that stop the public sector, the taxpayer, will go up or down as a result of the abolition of the subsidising poverty wages, wherever they occur in our AWB? economy.

Mr Paterson: As I said earlier, I am absolutely confident Mr Paterson: I think my hon. Friend will take that as that there is a great future for the industry, and that ano. there will be an increase in demand for labour, which will create pressure to drive wages up. Already, under Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab) rose— the AWB, the vast majority of people in the industry are paid well above the minimum wage and well above the Mr Paterson: I give way to my esteemed predecessor. AWB minimums. Another key area in growing the economy is the Margaret Beckett: I am grateful to the right hon. roll-out of superfast broadband to rural areas, and Gentleman, who has now asserted more than once, as increasingly wider access to 3G and 4G networks will has his predecessor, that the outcome will be to improve also make it easier for farm and rural businesses to the wages and conditions of agricultural workers. In operate. that case, will he tell us where the savings his Department identifies will come from? Jim Sheridan: I listened carefully to the Secretary of State’s response to the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for George). If wages and conditions were to go down, if that question. There are modest administrative savings that were to encourage migrant workers to come to this from the running of this organisation. Labour Members country to work for the lower wages, and if that were to concentrate on the impact assessment, which makes it result in problems in the community, whose fault would clear that we have a dynamic market, stating: that be? “Current wage levels are generally above the AWO minima & are underpinned by the National Minimum Wage.” Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman and I have debated On page 3, it says: these issues over many years, and we simply do not “Government intervention is no longer necessary because…it agree. Would he like to go back to the arrangements is considered that there is no market failure in the agricultural under some of the earlier councils? Why did not the labour market such that workers require protection which is over Labour Government re-establish the Linen and Cotton and above other statutory terms and conditions and wider employment Handkerchief and Household Goods and Linen Piece legislation applying to all workers.” Goods Wages Council (Great Britain), for example? Let me pick up my thread again. I am confident that Why did they not re-establish the Ostrich and Fancy we have a thriving sector with demand for labour, which Feather and Artificial Flower Wages Council, or the will push wages up, not down. I have touched on Pin, Hook and Eye and Snap Fastener Wages Council? the farming regulation task force, which will remove a 935 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 936 whole range of regulatory burdens from farm businesses. Abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board will allow In fact, since 2011, we have removed £13 of compliance agriculture to compete on a level playing field with all costs for every pound added. There will be 12,000 fewer other sectors of the economy, with all employees treated dairy inspections a year. equally and all underpinned by the national minimum The abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board will wage and other statutory provisions. Such an approach complement and supplement this work. That is why I was championed by the last Government. Speaking in find the position of the Opposition Front-Bench team the Committee stage of the National Minimum Wage so disappointing. Agriculture is now the only sector of Bill, the noble Lord Falconer argued: the economy to retain a separate statutory wages regime. “a single national minimum wage is a fundamental principle of There is no rationale for treating agriculture any differently the Bill. A single rate is easier to understand and fairer and easier to enforce...I believe that there is a great virtue in simplicity. The from other sectors. More than 900,000 businesses in simpler we can make the provision, the simpler and more effective England and Wales are micro-businesses that employ the Bill will be. People will know what their rights are. There will between one and nine people. The vast majority of be no difficulty in understanding their minimum wage entitlement; those cover sectors other than farming and do not and there will be no over-complexity, which might lessen the require an independent body to set employment terms effect of the Bill.”—(Official Report, House of Lords, 11 June and conditions, so there is no reason why it is still 1998; Vol. 590, c. 1240.) necessary for farm businesses. It is that over-complexity and bureaucracy, as represented It was in fact the last Labour Government who set up by the Agricultural Wages Board, that we are seeking to a single national minimum wage, and whose Minister, remove. This will improve the industry’s competitiveness the noble Lord Falconer argued that to produce for both domestic and export markets. About 40% of our fresh vegetables and 90% of our fresh fruit “the Government”— are imported, so there are plenty of opportunities for namely the Labour Government— domestic growers to improve their share of the market. Abolition will remove outdated and prescriptive regulations “do not believe that a multitude of regional, sectoral or other minimum wages is the right approach. It is neither sensible nor that hamper the ability of industry to offer flexible justifiable intellectually.”—(Official Report, House of Lords, 11 modern employment packages, such as the payment of June 1998; Vol. 590, c. 1240.) annual salaries. Agriculture has moved on significantly from when the current wages board was established 65 years ago under Tom Blenkinsop: Is the Secretary of State saying that the Attlee Government. It is now a global business and enhanced statutory sick pay is an outdated term and the price of agricultural commodities is determined by condition for farm workers, who have now had it removed international supply and demand. British farmers have due to the abolition of the AWB? Is he really saying to compete not only with each other, but with farmers that? overseas in order to sell both here and in international markets. Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood. The industry has become highly scientific and All the existing conditions continue. mechanised, with developments in plant and animal As I say, abolition will remove outdated and prescriptive breeding, improved fertilizers and pesticides, and other regulations that hamper the ability of industry to offer scientific and technological advances. Workers in the flexible modern employment packages, such as the payment industry need to be highly skilled and specialised. Modern of annual salaries. It will simplify employment legislation farm businesses are no longer confined just to agriculture. in the sector, provide transparency and make it easier to Around a quarter of farms have now diversified into recruit workers. In the absence of the board, farmers non-agricultural activities, such as rural tourism, retail and workers will be able to agree employment terms and sporting activities. Rural tourism alone is worth and conditions that suit the requirements of the farming £33 billion to the economy. sector and the particular circumstances of individuals. The agricultural wages order takes no account of the changes within agriculture, but imposes an inflexible Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I structure, which is no longer appropriate for the varied wonder whether the Secretary of State will answer a and diverse businesses within the industry. This is an question that was asked many times but never answered industry whose processes, structures and products would when the Public Bodies Act 2011 was in Committee. be barely recognisable to those drafting or debating the Did the Government consider modernising the board Agricultural Wages Act 1948. rather than abolishing it? Many farm businesses are faced with the burden of having to administer both the agricultural minimum Mr Paterson: All sorts of options were considered, wage regime and the national minimum wage regime. but we concluded that the answer was to abolish the Employers have to decide whether or not a worker’s board, thus bringing agriculture into line with every activity is covered by the provisions of the agricultural other employment sector in the country. wages order or by general employment legislation. In I fully understand the concern about the impact on some cases, there are grey areas as to whether or not workers’ wages and terms and conditions as they adjust work is covered by the agricultural minimum wage or to the level playing field and move from being set by a the national minimum wage. For example, packing of system of statutory wage fixing to being set by the salad and vegetable produce grown on farm would market. However, the figures that the hon. Member for normally be covered by the agricultural minimum wage, Wakefield and Unite have been using have been cherry- whereas packing of produce bought in from other farms picked from the impact assessment and are based on the is not. worst possible scenario, namely a reduction in the wages 937 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 938

[Mr Paterson] of the shadow Secretary of State by pointing out that that is 10p above the lowest band rate set by the Agricultural of every single worker in the agricultural sector. Anyone Wages Board. Agricultural workers supplied by a labour with any understanding of the farming industry, or the provider will continue to have the added protection of market, knows that that simply will not happen. the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. We will also The abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board will make changes to the working time regulations by means not of secondary legislation in order fully to align the “lead to a race to the bottom on wages in rural areas” treatment of agricultural workers with those in other sectors. or “impoverish rural workers”, as the motion suggests. It will give farmers and workers the same flexibility to Yasmin Qureshi: Will the Secretary of State promise agree terms and conditions as is given to employers and that if the wages and terms and conditions of agricultural workers in all other sectors of the economy, while also workers start to decline after the abolition of the securing the same levels of protection. Most workers Agricultural Wages Board, he will reinstate the board? already have terms and conditions over and above those in the agricultural wages order, and as contracts are Mr Paterson: I cannot promise anything. It is up to already in place, their wages should not be affected. In individual employers. What I do know is that employers 2010, the basic pay of full-time permanent workers was throughout the country are crying out for good staff. 12% above the AWB minimum for their grade, and Finding a good cowman is like finding hens’ teeth, and non-permanent grade 1 and 2 workers were paid 4% a really skilled driver of a modern piece of equipment above the AWB minimum for their grade. More than worth hundreds of thousands of pounds is someone an two thirds of permanent employees aged over 21 earn employer will really hang on to. above the agricultural wage minimum at grade 1, and more than half do so at grade 6. Yasmin Qureshi rose— The National Farmers Union has described the abolition of the AWB as “a progressive reform”, which is something Mr Paterson: I have already answered the hon. Lady’s in which the Labour party used to believe. The “bottom question. She takes a completely black view of the up” takeover of the party by the trade unions seems to economy, but this is an expanding sector that demands be almost complete. skilled people. I can reassure the House that agricultural workers who have existing contracts at the time of abolition will Yasmin Qureshi rose— continue to retain rights to pay at the appropriate grade level, along with the other terms and conditions in the Mr Paterson: I am going to press on. Other Members current agricultural wages order. For the avoidance of want to speak. any doubt, we intend to provide for that in legislation. I believe that agriculture needs to encourage new and Employers will not be able unilaterally to alter terms young workers to come into the industry. Evidence and conditions for an existing worker without legal suggests that the skills shortage in agriculture will be consequences. New workers coming into the industry greater in the years between now and 2020 than in other will be protected by the national minimum wage and by sectors of the economy. The agricultural work force is wider employment legislation. also ageing: 55% are over 45, which, again, is a higher The hon. Lady has described the national minimum figure than is found in other sectors of the economy. wage as Under the new arrangements, market drivers will ensure “one of the Labour Government’s greatest achievements.” that wages remain competitive. Farmers will need to offer competitive employment packages and career Why should we not let agricultural workers benefit from opportunities at all levels to recruit and retain workers that achievement? The national minimum wage provides to meet their business needs. sufficient protection for 99.5% cent of the work force, including those who operate factory machinery, those Of course, we recognise the need to ensure a smooth who drive heavy vehicles, and those who care for the transition for agricultural workers and employers to the sick, the elderly or children. There is no reason why it new arrangements. Subject to parliamentary approval should not also provide sufficient protection for agricultural for the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, we workers. intend to invite industry representatives to a meeting to explore whether there is scope for future informal, Margaret Beckett: The Secretary of State has repeatedly voluntary industry engagement between employers and mentioned the national minimum wage and the fact workers. DEFRA also supports a review of the agricultural that it was introduced by the last Labour Government. skill levels used in the agricultural wages order, which Let me say to him, as the former Secretary of State who will contribute to the broader work of the industry introduced the national minimum wage legislation, that AgriSkills Forum. We will ensure that written guidance it was no accident that when we introduced that and information is available for workers and employers legislation—which was, of course, opposed by both the to help them understand the changes and what they parties who are now in government—we did not abolish mean for them. the Agricultural Wages Board, precisely because we The abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board will recognised the particular vulnerabilities of agricultural allow the industry to modernise while ensuring that workers. agricultural workers have the same levels of protection as workers in all other sectors of the economy. It will Mr Paterson: In October this year, the Government ensure a vibrant and sustainable future for agriculture will raise the national minimum wage by 12p an hour to and will have benefits for those who work in the industry, £6.31. [Interruption.] Let me respond to the chunterings as well as the wider rural economy. 939 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 940

The motion seems to look upon the UK agriculture carefully consider the outcomes of consultation in their industry as though it is still powered by beer, sandwiches final decision? Did they consult the Welsh Government, and steam, when in fact it is reliant on cutting-edge whose agreement was needed for abolition? They did technology, machinery and science. The Government none of those things; they came up with an extremely wish to equip the agriculture sector for the challenges shabby plan to get round them. and opportunities of the 21st century. The Labour The Government redefined the Agricultural Wages party and its union backers do not. We will vote against Board as a “regulatory reform” to avoid the necessity of the motion. even trying to get the co-operation of the Welsh Government, and they cobbled together a four-week Several hon. Members rose— consultation that failed to meet their own standards on consultations, issued by the Cabinet Office. Even then, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I 63% of those who responded to that sham and shameful think 12 Members wish to speak in the debate. I am consultation disagreed with abolition, so they were reluctant to set a time limit, so if everybody speaks for simply ignored. about nine or 10 minutes, we will comfortably get them Having failed to carry out a proper consultation, the in. If somebody does not comply, they will be using Government decided to attach an amendment to the another Member’s time and a time limit will be necessary. Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill and pushed it I hope that is clear. through the House without debate. When the Government hold something that is clearly a sham consultation over 3.36 pm four weeks instead of 12, ignore their own standards, Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): The Agricultural and then ignore the results of the consultation, is it any Wages Board is important in constituencies such as surprise that people question, and are suspicious of, any mine—rural communities where there is already much public consultation? poverty, and wages are low. Established by the Attlee Government in 1948, the board has served us for the Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The problem was not last 65 years, setting a minimum wage and terms and just the lack of consultation with the public, but the conditions of employment for workers employed in lack of consultation with the House. Those of us who agriculture. It costs the Government little to administer; were engaged in the passage of the Public Bodies Bill I am told that it will probably cost more to abolish than expected that there would be a full debate on the to maintain. abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board in the future It appears that the decision to abolish the Agricultural but, whether through cock-up or conspiracy, we were Wages Board is not based on financial evidence. It is yet denied that opportunity. another decision from a Government who spurn concepts such as data and evidence in favour of ideology and Pat Glass: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. This is dogma. Once again, their adherence to ideology and dogma not a decent way for a Government to behave. Hon. will have an impact on one of the hardest working and Members start to feel superior about foreign Governments least well paid groups of workers in our rural communities. that we consider illegitimate when we see them behaving The Government were intent on abolishing the in this way. We criticise such behaviour in others, and it Agricultural Wages Board from day one. The original is not what the House and the country expect from our announcement was made in July 2010. The leading Government. party in the coalition Government, whose MPs include Why are the Government so desperate to abolish the members of the wealthiest landowning families in this Agricultural Wages Board that they will breach their country, hardly had time to get their well-heeled shoes own consultation and deny debate in the House? Is the under their new shiny Government desks when they board excessively expensive? Does it act illegally? Is it so made their initial announcement. However, before the far beyond reform that the only way to deal with it is by Government could take the final abolition decision, I abolishing it in this high-handed manner? It is a public understand they were told that they needed to carry out body that costs very little, yet decides the terms and a consultation of interested parties or face a judicial conditions of agricultural workers. It sets rates for review that they would probably lose on the grounds of young workers, including those under 16, who are not insufficient consultation, and that they needed the consent covered by the minimum wage. It also sets out maximum of the delegated Welsh authorities to abolish the board. deductions for tied housing, which affects up to a third of farm workers. Mr Spencer: Given that the hon. Lady knew about Why are the Government so determined to use whatever the decision in 2010, has there not been adequate time means possible to abolish the board? Their only answer between then and now to consider all the options? is that it is too bureaucratic for farmers, so implementing decent wages and conditions for workers on top of all Pat Glass: I am not the Government, so I cannot that form filling to claim EU farm subsidy payments is respond to that question. Had I been the Government, I clearly too bureaucratic. The Government argue that would have stuck to their rules and standards for abolishing the Agricultural Wages Board, and hence the consultation. They did not. agricultural minimum wage regime, will simplify What did the Government do? Did they conform to employment practices and remove an unnecessary Cabinet Office standards for consultation? Did they regulatory burden. The problem for farmers is therefore carry out an extensive 12-week consultation, avoiding nothing whatsoever to do with the predatory practices main holiday periods, and making extensive efforts to of the supermarkets, but all about the time it takes to ensure that all those affected, as well as all those with an read the annual bulletin from the Agricultural Wages interest, had an opportunity to take part? Did they Board. 941 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 942

[Pat Glass] to the last election, I asked a group of farmers and farm workers in my constituency if there was a single thing The Government’s impact assessment shows clearly that the Government could do: if there was one thing that workers’ wages will fall by up to £34.5 million a only on the Christmas list, what would it be? Without year over 10 years as a result of abolition. For new hesitation, the answer was, “Get rid of the Agricultural contracts, the change in the value of annual leave, if Wages Board. It has outlived its usefulness.” employers implement statutory terms rather than those under the agricultural workers order, will be up to Nia Griffith: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us what £13 million a year over 10 years. Farmers’ employment members of the Farmers Union of Wales told him in costs that represent transfer payments to the Government response to that question? and others will fall as wages fall, so the Exchequer will also be hit, and that is before we consider the cost to the Simon Hart: I can. The FUW members supported public purse of paying the working benefits that agricultural the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. The workers will need as their wages fall. FUW as a union made rather a different representation. The north-east is the region that has the smallest I speak on behalf of members in my own constituency. number of people working in agriculture. That is partly Of course I cannot speak for the union based in a because it is the smallest region and partly because it different area. has the highest rate of unemployment in the country. One of the things that I find startling is that the Nevertheless, 3,360 people in the north-east work on shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Wakefield the land. The abolition of the board will have a direct (Mary Creagh), rather than the whole party that she impact on 60 people in my constituency. If we force represents, seemed to find it impossible to believe that agricultural workers off the land and cannot attract an owner, a manager, a farm worker and a forester can younger workers, just who do Ministers think will fill all work harmoniously together because they have a these jobs? Let me tell them: it will be people from common shared love of food production or a common overseas. shared love of their community and want to do the According to the Government’s figures, the abolition right thing by their farmer. That seems to be a concept of the Agricultural Wages Board will take £260 million that the Opposition cannot absorb because they have a out of the rural economy over 10 years. It will take union-fuelled view that it is some kind of Dickensian money out of rural communities, village shops, pubs existence out there. For those of us for whom it is our and post offices, and away from everyone who relies on daily life—it is where I shall be by the end of tomorrow—it those businesses. Rural communities have already lost is not like that. It may be like that in Wakefield, but it local buses, and the Government are set on a national ain’t like that in Pembrokeshire. funding formula for schools that has no place for a I am particularly sad that the shadow Minister, the small schools premium, which will result in the closure hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), is not of rural schools—hon. Members heard it here first. The in his place. He seems to be dancing to the union tune abolition of the board will lead to lower wages, poorer on the subject. I know Ogmore in the way that he knows rural housing and an increase in the number of immigrant Pembrokeshire, and we both know, as I said, that this is workers on the land. The way in which the Government not an issue for agricultural workers in either of our have brought about the abolition does them no credit constituencies. I am surprised that he has not stood up whatsoever, yet the real tragedy is not the way this to the pressure from the sponsors of the debate and discredited Government have acted, but the real impact spoken on behalf of the agricultural workers, with that their policy will have on rural communities such as whom we are all familiar and for whom we have great mine throughout the country. respect in west Wales.

3.44 pm Tim Farron: I deal with about 9,000 pieces of casework Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South a year and I have not had a single farm worker write to Pembrokeshire) (Con): I am glad to have the chance to me on the issue, which is surprising, but not when we speak in this debate. I have been getting increasingly think that the overwhelming majority of livestock farmers frustrated, as is often the case, by what seems to be a and dairy farmers in places like ours do not employ cack-handed effort on the part of the Opposition to anybody, because they themselves are so hard up and ingratiate themselves with the rural community. In so are probably existing on significantly less then the minimum doing, they have managed to be pretty offensive to wage, considering what they earn and the hours that every aspect of the rural community. they work. We should be concentrating on how those I can only share some anecdotal thoughts in this farmers can get a fair deal for feeding the rest of us. debate. Prior to entering Parliament, I spent 28 years working in various parts of that community. I have Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman speaks with great worked on a farm, I have worked for farms, I have knowledge because he represents an area suffering those worked for big estates and small estates, I have represented hardships. landlords, tenants and farm workers, and I have worked I shall not speak for long. I find it bizarre that in forestry and country sports. There is almost no last night when my hon. Friend the Member for aspect of the rural economy and the rural community Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) was fronting a debate that I have not come into contact with over quite a long on the hardship facing upland farmers, I was reprimanded period. by Mr Speaker for mentioning cattle when I should Throughout that whole period, not one single person have been speaking about sheep. Never mind. Here we ever said to me, “Of course, what we really need to do is are debating something which is not relevant to the preserve the Agricultural Wages Board.” In the run-up hardships facing the agricultural industry, certainly in 943 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 944 my area, when we should be devoting our energy to Lord Falconer’s comment that regional and sectoral other matters. I am surprised that the shadow Secretary pay was a thing of the past. I find it odd that we seem to of State was not there to hear the debate, which was be disagreeing with that now. important and involved her party as much as it involved The final abolition of the AWB raises two questions, ours. I am surprised that we are engaged in the present both of which have been raised before, but since neither debate when we know that the abolition of the Agricultural has been answered I will ask them again. If the abolition Wages Board will not leave agricultural workers, certainly of the AWB exposes young workers, foreign workers or in my area, exposed or vulnerable. people who are vulnerable, either through poverty or in some other way, in the way the shadow Secretary of Glyn Davies: Does my hon. Friend agree that if we State has set out—I know all about the unique aspects believed that abolishing the Agricultural Wages Board of agricultural work—why is it that no other sector in would lead to some decrease in the wage agricultural the UK from which a wages board has been removed is workers are paid, we would not be in favour of it? It will suffering from those consequences? Perhaps she could not make any difference at all. The Opposition are keen explain—we asked this question earlier but did not get to emphasise that it will, and they are wrong because an explanation—why those dangers are apparently unique they do not understand the countryside. They are driven to agriculture. I will ask her a third time, more in hope by a completely different motive. than in expectation: would Labour reinstate the AWB if it was lucky enough to form a Government in 2015? It is Simon Hart: I think that my hon. Friend is wrong on no good her saying that they have a couple years to only one point: he says that the Labour party does not come clean about their proposals. I think that this is understand, but I think that it understands only too absolutely the right forum and the right time to make well. It is caught in a difficult position because its union clear the policy as it applies to the AWB of a party that sponsors are saying one thing and its constituents in might—I hope not—form a future Government. certain areas are saying another. 3.53 pm Yasmin Qureshi: May I just confirm that, as a former Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I begin by telling barrister, I neither belong to a union, nor am I financed the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South by a union? I am concerned about the working conditions Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) that it is not just Conservative and pay of working people. I will ask the hon. Gentleman Members who represent rural areas; many of us on the the same question I asked the Secretary of State earlier: Opposition Benches represent large rural communities, if after the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board know them, understand them, live in them and want to we find that workers’ wages, accommodation and so on represent them in the House today. deteriorate, will he reintroduce it? In this week of praise for great Prime Ministers of the 20th century, I would like to add my words of praise for Simon Hart: It might surprise the hon. Lady to learn Clement Attlee for introducing the original legislation that I am not a member of the Government and so I am in 1948. I do so not to look back more than 60 years to not really in a position to answer that. Of course, I sat the conditions in 1948, but to put it on the record that through 13 years of Labour disdain for rural Britain, these things matter today for my constituents and those and that question was asked on many occasions. However, of other Opposition Members. I do not want to be reprimanded by the Chair twice in two days for getting off the topic by talking about Mr Russell Brown: I represent a constituency north of union sponsorship, so if she will forgive me— the border, where this discussion has no real relevance or impact, but farm worker constituents who have Mary Creagh: The hon. Gentleman said that the contacted me are in solidarity with their colleagues in motion is somehow sponsored by unions. It is nothing England and Wales and say that what is going on is of the sort. This debate is about a point of principle— absolutely wrong. I appreciate that the hon. Member [Interruption.] I am sorry that Government Members for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) says that are laughing. This debate is about whether people who he has not been contacted, but I have. Perhaps his work in remote, isolated areas, in unseasonable conditions constituents have not contacted him because they have and in one of our most dangerous industries deserve to no trust in what he is doing. be paid 2p an hour above the national minimum wage and to have some sort of protection against eviction Mr Hanson: This issue certainly matters to people from their homes. across the whole of the United Kingdom because, even though the AWB is for England and Wales, its abolition Simon Hart: The hon. Lady will forgive me if I note will have an impact throughout the UK. that pretty much all the electronic traffic we have seen In my constituency, 235 businesses are involved in on this debate has been generated by her party’s biggest agriculture and farming, and more than 11% of my sponsor. Call me a cynic, but I am not going to accept constituents work in the agricultural sector. The market her comments. town of Mold in my constituency depends not only on I believe that workers in my area are protected by the the cattle and agriculture markets to bring people in, minimum wage, employment legislation and a raft of but on the wages of people who work in agriculture to accommodation legislation applying to tied cottages maintain its shops, business and rural community. and the like. I do not recognise the image projected by the Labour party of farm workers in tied cottages, and John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): I have a great deal of have 28 years’ experience in the industry. I agreed with respect for the right hon. Gentleman, but the National the Secretary of State when he referred to the noble Farmers Union briefing states: 945 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 946

[John Glen] trust a party that does not support the national minimum wage when it says that this measure will maintain or “The Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE) for 2010 improve pay and conditions? showed that 90% of workers employed in agricultural trades received gross pay above £6.50 an hour”, Yasmin Qureshi: Is it not right that over the past 15 or which I think was the minimum set by the AWB. If he is 20 years, the Conservative party has always taken away seriously concerned about wage levels in the agricultural working people’s rights and benefits when in government? sector, how does he respond to that review of actual pay levels? Mr Hanson: My main worry is that the assessment of the Welsh Assembly that some £26 million to £28 million Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for will be taken out of agricultural wages in Wales over the his question. I am genuinely worried that wages will fall next 10 years will prove to be correct and that rural when the AWB is abolished, and I am not the only one: poverty will increase. That is money that will not be the Farmers Union of Wales, which I will come on to spent in the shops of Mold, Holywell and Flint in my later and which represents the bulk of farmers in my constituency, that will not help to sustain the rural area and other farmers in Wales, supports the official economy in my constituency, and that will not be spent Opposition’s stance against the abolition of the AWB. in the rural post offices, pubs and communities of my There is a division of opinion and we need to expose it. constituency. That money will be lost to the area. This measure will be damaging for the 13,829 people across Wales who work in the agricultural sector and who Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I am not sure depend on the wages board. that I follow the right hon. Gentleman’s logic, so could he talk us through it a little more? If 90% of pay is As I have mentioned, the Farmers Union of Wales, already above the AWB’s minimum, how come it has which, with respect to the hon. Member for Carmarthen not already fallen back to that minimum? West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), is not affiliated to the Labour party, has said on many occasions that it opposes the moves by the UK Government to Mr Hanson: If the hon. Gentleman will let me develop abolish the Agricultural Wages Board. It stated: my argument, he will see that this is not just about pay. He was not here at the time, but the Secretary of State “The Union has always supported the AWB and remains concerned that unless there are systems in place to protect payments kept me up for 36 hours so he could vote against the to agricultural workers, the industry will not attract the highly minimum wage. He did not do that so that wages could skilled individuals it needs to thrive”. rise; he did it so that wages would not rise. My worry It went on to say: about the abolition of the AWB is based on exactly the same principle: it will remove a floor that protects the “As many farms in Wales run with relatively few staff, the AWB work force in my constituency. is considered an important means of avoiding potential conflict and lengthy negotiations with individual staff”. As I have said, my constituency depends on agriculture It also said: and more than 11% of my constituents work in agriculture. Courses in horticulture and agriculture at Northop “The economic climate within the agricultural industry has made it a less attractive option for young people, and rewarding college bring in people to train in agriculture. These are skills, qualifications, and levels of responsibility is a vital means key issues. Although Government Members may view of persuading high calibre people to remain or enter into the minimum rates of pay, overtime, holiday entitlement, industry.” sick pay, rates of pay for young workers, compassionate As my hon. Friend the Member for North West leave, rest breaks, maximum deductions for tied housing, Durham (Pat Glass) said, the Labour-controlled National allowances for keeping working dogs and payment of Assembly for Wales was not consulted about the abolition on-call and night allowances as issues of regulation, to of the AWB, as it should have been by statute. The my constituents they are bread and butter matters that Government failed to do that and passed the measure impact on their lives and they want their representative through the back door in a Bill that did not require and others who represent rural areas in Parliament to consultation. The Secretary of State knows that he stand up and speak on their behalf. They are not idle should have consulted the National Assembly. These issues. are important matters for my colleagues there. As has I am getting a bit long in the tooth. I have been here been mentioned, the National Assembly may outline for 21 years and the first Bill Committee I sat on was for shortly its plans to keep the minimum wages and conditions the 1992 employment Bill that abolished every single set by the Agricultural Wages Board in a Welsh context. wages board apart from the AWB. That Bill was taken However, that will involve bureaucracy and cost. It through this House by the then Member for Stirling, the would have been far better, particularly from a Unionist now noble Lord Forsyth, who is not known for his left party, if the conditions had been maintained across leanings, but who decided to maintain the AWB because England and Wales. he recognised, even at that time, that it was crucial for As I mentioned in an intervention, the Secretary conditions as well as wages. of State represents a border area. His constituency of The national minimum wage has been mentioned. I North Shropshire is not far from mine; his borders was very proud to vote for the national minimum wage Wales and mine borders England. If there are different and am grateful that my right hon. Friend the Member terms and conditions on either side of the border, the for Derby South (Margaret Beckett) is here. It was one market will flow across it. If the conditions are worse in of the greatest achievements of the Labour Government. England than in Wales, which they may be if the Welsh The then Opposition kept this House up late into the Assembly retains the board, the Secretary of State will evening because they did not support it. Why should we find that there is a flow of individuals looking for better 947 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 948 terms and conditions, who will perhaps only have to to pay cheques of more than £1 million to large farmers travel 1 or 2 miles across the border. I find it strange who, frankly, usually do not need it. On the other hand, that that will be caused by a Unionist politician. Mold, I fear the abolition of the AWB will mean that more Holywell and Flint in my constituency will lose income public funds need to be deployed to pay the wages of because of this measure, but I believe that there will also agricultural workers who find their conditions and wages be a confidence issue. cut, or to pay benefits to those whose standard of living In conclusion, 63% of the people who were consulted falls below a certain level. In both cases, a lot of public did not support this measure and the Welsh Assembly money is involved, in one case enriching large farmers does not support it. I accept, as the hon. Member for and in the other subsidising poverty in our rural areas. I Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire said, that am not content with that contrast, and I will draw Unite the Union does not support the measure to conclusions about it at the end of my comments. abolish the board, but it is part of a broad-based The abolition of the AWB was not in the Liberal coalition that does not accept it. The Minister of State—the Democrat manifesto. It was in the Conservative party Tonto to the Secretary of State’s Lone Ranger—did not manifesto, however, and indeed the NFU made it clear support this proposal in opposition, but is an advocate in the lead-up to the last general election that it was very of it in government. He should examine his conscience much in favour of the abolition of the AWB. That was and think about what is in the interests of his constituents. certainly the case in my area, so my experience contrasts The people driving the change are the same people with that of the hon. Member for Carmarthen West driving tax cuts for millionaires. They are out of touch and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on that point. with their communities and with rural areas. I am One of the NFU’s key asks was the abolition of the proud to represent a rural area and speak up for it in AWB, yet when I raised the issue with farmers, I found Parliament, and I will be proud to vote today and say that a significant number of them were opposed to that that whatever has already happened in legislation, I policy. They were opposed to it for the reasons the hon. support the AWB. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) has outlined, such as that it would leave them in the position of having to negotiate individually. The collective approach 4.4 pm through the AWB provided them with a framework that enabled them to avoid considerable embarrassment and Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): This is a difficult difficulty or having to buy-in human resources consultants debate, and I am grateful to the Labour Opposition for to resolve things. My hon. Friend the Member for having brought it forward. In a point of order after the Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) is right: few debate on Lords amendments to the Enterprise and small-scale farmers employ agricultural workers, but Regulatory Reform Bill last week, I said how strongly I those who do will encounter great difficulties if they opposed our having had neither a debate or a vote on have to negotiate these arrangements with their workers. this significant matter. As I indicated earlier in an intervention, we had only limited opportunities to discuss I have regularly worked with the NFU over many the abolition of the AWB, among a large number of years, not least on the creation of the groceries code other measures, in our debates on the Public Bodies Act adjudicator, for which the Government must be warmly 2011. We were reassured throughout those debates that congratulated. I have worked with it on a wide range of the House would have ample opportunity to debate the issues, and often agree with it and stand shoulder to issue and come to a conclusion on it at a later stage, shoulder with it—but not, I am afraid, on this issue. when a specific proposal was brought forward under Regrettably, on matters such as this the NFU tends to the powers in schedule 1 to that Bill. I come at this resort to becoming a large farmers’ union, rather than debate on the basis of a significant disagreement with an all farmers’ union; I have accused it of that to its how the Government have handled the matter and face, so I am not saying this behind its back. frustration that we are shutting the stable door after the Many pertinent issues have already been raised in our horse has bolted. Nevertheless, it is important to have debate, and I shall not repeat the concerns expressed the debate. about the impact this move will have, and about the I listened carefully to my right hon. Friend the Secretary Government simply saying, “We have the national minimum of State and did not get the impression that the AWB wage, so we no longer need an AWB.” was being abolished because it was holding back wages and conditions for agricultural workers. In fact, I still Mr Spencer: Can the hon. Gentleman define for me have a strong impression that the opposite is true. I what a large farm is? Is an intensively farmed three-acre know that there has been a lot of speculation about the poultry farm a large farm? Is a 200-acre dairy farm a outcome of the abolition, but I am clear that it is not large farm? happening to enhance agricultural workers’ pay and conditions. Andrew George: The hon. Gentleman might be drawing I also find it difficult to understand the impression me into a different debate, but he knows about standard that the Government are giving, given the slogan “We’re man days—I do not want that to be interpreted as a all in this together”, which they adopted in their first sexist term—and the number of jobs a holding generates, Budget and which I approve of entirely. One good or requires in order to be maintained. That is calculated proposal from the European Commission on the common irrespective of the acres covered, because as his question agricultural policy is to cap the single farm payment at implies, especially in less favoured areas—some of which ¤300,000 and disburse the money saved in different fall within my constituency—there are geographically ways. That could have been on the agenda under the very large farms that have low productivity. As the hon. previous Administration 10 years ago, but we are where Gentleman rightly says, some farms that are small in we are. On the one hand, the Government are content acreage are intensively farmed and have high levels of 949 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 950

[Andrew George] is not the only part of that cost, which also includes estimates for new HR costs and litigation for farming productivity. He makes a good point, but the point I businesses that will no longer have the collective negotiating was making about larger farms was in the context of the umbrella under which the whole labour market is regulated. fact that some—although admittedly very few—receive Indeed, the last time an attempt was made to get rid of hundreds of thousands of pounds, or even over £1 million the AWB, even Baroness Thatcher had to U-turn. Not pounds, in public subsidy. He cannot deny that that is only did she U-turn, but the gravity of the deprivation the case. Those sums are given to a very few large farms that could have hurt hard-working people did not make as a result of the arrangements through the single farm economic or moral sense then, and it does not make payment. economic or moral sense now. We believe that those I regret finding myself in this position. I know the people—often they do not own even 1 square foot of Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for soil on the land—should at the very least be able to Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), has been handed a afford the food they grow on that land. The Government hospital pass with this issue since taking up his post, should be helping families across this nation to deal and I am enormously grateful to him for the work he is with rising living costs, not actively participating in already doing through his conversations and meetings driving down hard-working people’s pay—and all this with people in the sector. Despite this regrettable decision, from a Government who are doubling the nation’s debt he is working with them to try to identify opportunities in a five-year period, with accrual of debt outstripping for voluntary agreements within the sector. I hope that any allegations of debt accrual against us over the will serve to provide some of the protections which I 13 years of Labour governance. fear will be lost to agricultural workers as a result of That is the perverse backdrop against which the this Government decision. demolition of the AWB is juxtaposed—a demolition There is something further that I regret. Normally, I feel that saves virtually nothing in Treasury terms, but which enormously disappointed by Opposition day debates, will ultimately bestow a huge tragedy upon rural because they usually degenerate into rather tribal, finger- communities. I repeat: it is a policy that saves virtually pointing and teasing events, in which it is not possible nothing, while the Government are also, as we know, to take the Opposition line on an issue because of how cavalierly forgoing more than £1 billion in revenue that the debate has been handled. I regret that on this could be used for investment or to pay off the debt they occasion—partly as a result of how the Government are accruing. Instead, that money is being sacrificed to have handled the matter so far, by not giving us an give millionaires a cut in the top rate of tax. Those opportunity for a debate or a vote—after a considered millionaires could use that tax rebate, stick it with the debate, I will be voting against the Government in the Government’s spare home subsidy and buy up the surplus Division. housing stock in some rural communities. The Government have just shafted people on AWB pay and terms and conditions. 4.15 pm Farm workers work in all elements. They do tough, Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East hard-working jobs, much like those in the steel industry Cleveland) (Lab): The backdrop to this terrible and that I know—hard labour, shifts and working outdoors. petty Government measure is the fact that real wages Those jobs lead to a far greater incidence of ill health. have fallen by £1,700 since this Government were elected. Farmer workers on the lowest grade will lose between This is a Government who preach about making work £150 and £264 in sick pay once the AWB is abolished. pay, yet raise the national minimum wage by only 1.9% The Secretary of State disagreed and said it would while consumer prices index inflation is at 2.8%. This is continue, but that is as long as TUPE regulations exist, a living standards debate. Instead of raising standards and that is worth about 90 days in the current currency. for farm workers, the Government are engaging in a A new employee in that sector will not be grandfathered race to the bottom on pay and fair treatment. like previous workers but put on statutory minimums, The first early-day motion I ever tabled in this House and the Secretary of State knows that. —early-day motion 754, on 6 September 2010—was a A quarter of the current work force covered by the motion opposing the Government’s then proposals to AWB are over 55, and the change to sick pay damns eradicate the AWB. I did it with the full support of the those workers to the self-fulfilling perpetuation of grinding Labour party, because we on the Opposition Benches poverty that those on the Government Benches simply know that the AWB protects pay and conditions for choose to ignore. Another point is just how exposed an 152,000 farm workers in England and Wales and is used individual is under the new terms. They will be negotiating as a benchmark for others employed in food manufacturing. their pay, terms and conditions while the AWB is being Some 3,360 of those workers live in the north-east of abolished. For example, if an individual is tied into England and 170 of them are in my constituency. Once accommodation, how will they be able or confident the AWB is gone, 42,000 casual workers could see a enough to raise the issue of sick pay or holidays without drop in wages as soon as they finish their next job. The collective bargaining when their home is at stake? We remaining 110,000 could see their wages eroded over are talking about real living standards. This is not some time. sort of arithmetical debate; these are real people who Let me ask the Minister straight out: why are the are going to suffer. Government taking £260 million out of the rural economy in disposable income? That is how much will be lost in sick pay and holiday entitlement over a 10-year period. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I have been listening How do we know that? We know because the Department’s carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but does he recognise impact assessment tells us so. The loss to local businesses that 41% of farm workers currently earn considerably 951 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 952 more than the national minimum wage, as prescribed by fancy feather industry, or rope and net manufacturers. the Agricultural Wages Board? That is a substantial One has only to read lists of some of the industries to difference. [Interruption.] which the boards applied to realise that the whole concept is anachronistic and out of date. Tom Blenkinsop: As my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said from a sedentary position, Andrew George: I should have said that, like my hon. that means that 59% of workers do not earn that. Friend, I too was an agricultural worker and worked on Therefore, 41% have enhanced terms because a statutory our farm. He says that the agricultural sector is the one minimum is in place—the same principle as for the sector that has been left alone, but it is also the sector national minimum wage. It is a different sector, but 59% into which the Gangmasters Licensing Authority was of people do not earn that and there is no guarantee introduced, which demonstrates that it requires some about what direction their pay, terms and conditions underpinning with regulation. will go in. In economic terms, for the agricultural sector, that is mad. George Eustice: Equally, we could say that the It is totally and utterly crazy to say that by undermining introduction of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority a statutory minimum at the bottom, pay will go up. deals with some of the working conditions problems That is just not the case, as the past 13 years of the that Opposition Members have highlighted in a way Labour Government proved. The national minimum that makes the AWB ever more redundant. wage was put in place, but collective bargaining allowed enhancements to be brought in. If the floor is taken To return to the 1993 debate, the then Minister for away, the floor goes through the floor—it goes lower Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Gillian Shephard, held and lower. a consultation. A small number of us in the farming industry said that the AWB should go; that it was out of Neil Carmichael: If the hon. Gentleman is so determined date and anachronistic; that farming should not be on the matter of the Agricultural Wages Board, why did treated as a special case; and that the AWB read like the previous Labour Government not renew all other something from the 1950s. It tended to be the larger, wages boards that were abolished under the Major more forward-thinking farmers who took that view, led Government? by a large salads company, the G’s group, which was run by Guy Shropshire. It was not one of my most Tom Blenkinsop: I would take those on the Government successful campaigns. The Government had some 3,500 Benches more seriously if—pardon my slight diversion, responses to the consultation, of which only 11 were in Madam Deputy Speaker—the Government were not favour of abolition. I was one of those 11. That highlights giving the full pay reward to the Army. Armed forces the massive swing in opinion. Opposition Members were awarded a 1.5% pay increase. The Chancellor have highlighted the current consultation, but 40% of announced the increase in the Budget at the Dispatch people who responded to it have said that abolition is Box, yet delayed the start of those payments until the right thing to do. 1 May. That is unique in the private or public sector. I have never heard of that in the steel industry, or any Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): I other manufacturing industry in the private sector, yet want quickly to comment on a point before my hon. the Government are doing that to the armed forces—I Friend moves on. Surely gangs now have that protection. apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. They are totally different from the average farm worker Tied accommodation affects 30,300 farm workers in East Anglia, where very often someone is in charge of and their families. Will Ministers at least guarantee that £500,000-worth of equipment and on a very high wage, those properties will not be taken from under the noses on a farm that 40 years ago might have employed of those workers, and potentially opened up to the new 40 people, but now employs two people who are highly spares homes subsidy market so that millionaires can skilled, very responsible and well paid. increase their property portfolios? This is a piece of despicable legislation, outdone only by the sheer cowardice George Eustice: My hon. Friend is right and underlines of a Government who wish to pass this measure without my point that the GLA has made the AWB ever more attempting to justify one scintilla of it to the House in redundant. Those at the bottom on those low incomes open debate. have new protections. One big thing in this debate compared with the last 4.23 pm one—it is important to recognise this—is that the National George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I Farmers Union is on the right side. For once, it is saying worked in the farming industry for 10 years and was that we should get rid of the AWB because it is out of involved in this debate when the issue was last discussed date. In 1993, the NFU let down its members. David some 20 years ago—I will come back to that in a Naish, the then president, supported the retention of moment. It is worth noting—this has been alluded to by the AWB, and he was wrong to do so. The NFU board some, including the Secretary of State—that in the early of directors at the time was out of touch and behind the ’90s, all other remaining wage councils and wages boards curve, but the NFU now recognises that things need to were scrapped. There was no rationale for them. Some change and fully supports and endorses the abolition of 26 remained in about 1993, and all were abolished. the AWB. If even the NFU supports the abolition of Many covered sectors such as hotels, catering, retail, the AWB, it is time to act. Another big change since hairdressing and clothing manufacturing, but as the 1993 is, as many hon. Members have said, the introduction Secretary of State said, there were also some rather of the minimum wage, which is yet another measure odd-looking boards such as those for the ostrich and that makes the AWB out of date and no longer necessary. 953 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 954

[George Eustice] someone who has just left school and joined their business—he will give them time off work and support How does the AWB frustrate rather than improve them in proficiency tests and training. At the moment, career development in the agricultural sector? The most if they do that, the next thing that happens is that they important thing is the huge lack of flexibility. The suddenly have to pay that person more money. Is it not board is based on old-style wage grade rates dating better if that person can develop and train, and has a from the ’60s and ’70s, and completely ignores the farmer who wants to facilitate that, so that maybe, fact that, in the most progressive farm businesses, when a neighbouring farm needs somebody who has many people are paid a salary and have management the proficiency test skills and a different type of skill responsibilities. The best farm businesses have profit set, they are able to progress and take a job that is shares and payment by results. Piece rates are increasingly higher paid in that neighbouring farm? The farmer will used when people earn far in excess of the minimum want that to happen; he will be happy to encourage wage rates. Those modern day pay practices are completely somebody and see a career develop. At the moment, ignored by the agricultural wages order, which can however, we are in a situation where the rigid grade frustrate the development of more progressive pay policies structure discourages farmers from wanting to have in the farming industry and keep it trapped in a 1950s their employees seek further training. mindset. We have heard a lot in this debate, both from my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) from Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I am following my neighbouring constituency—we take different views the hon. Gentleman’s argument closely, but cannot on this, as people will have noticed—and others, about understand why anyone would want to do away with the how difficult it is for farmers to negotiate with their minimum. He suggests that, in many sectors of the staff, as if it is something that is dreadfully embarrassing agriculture industry, people are highly skilled and receive and they cannot possibly do it. I reject that idea completely. higher remuneration than would be set as a minimum Farmers, if they are still in business today, have to do all by the AWB, but why argue for its abolition if it does sorts of challenging things: they have to negotiate with not affect those people? Surely the AWB protects a people day in, day out; they have huge amounts of group of people who do not receive such higher paperwork to deal with; and they have to negotiate and remuneration. fight over the costs of their feeds, fuel bills and all sorts of things. The idea that they cannot sit down with the George Eustice: The group of people the hon. Gentleman people they work with every day and have an intelligent is concerned about are protected by the minimum wage. conversation about their pay review is, frankly, ludicrous. That is already there and is set at roughly the same level Farm businesses are no different from any other as a grade 1 agricultural worker, so I do not think that businesses. Even if they do not have to have discussions that is an argument at all. What I am saying is that with their employees about pay rates, one can guarantee being too rigid can actually frustrate the development that there will still be times when they have to have of more progressive pay policies. discussions about people turning up for work late and The other point, which the Secretary of State touched staff who have problems at home and need some time on earlier—we had this in our farm business where off—all those sorts of issues. There is nothing different some of the work was in pack houses—is that someone about farming. I was in the young farmers club in could be running a conveyor belt packing strawberries Cornwall with many of the farmers in my hon. Friend’s one minute and working in the field the next, with constituency. I know many of them and I can tell him totally different wages rates applying. We ran a farm that they are perfectly capable of having those conversations shop, in which different rates applied, even though there with their employees. were sometimes shared staff.

Yasmin Qureshi: The hon. Gentleman states that this Neil Carmichael: I endorse what my hon. Friend is is a progressive pay policy. In the past 30 years, have a saying. I, too, was a farmer in the 1990s, and know that Conservative Government ever passed any legislation farmers can easily negotiate. It is also important to that has helped the working person, whether in terms of recognise that agriculture today is a modern industry payment, work and conditions, or equality? Conservative that is moving forward, with added value products, Governments have never, ever advocated and voted for retail sectors and so on. All of that is happening to the rights of the working person. farms, so we cannot anchor them down to something as archaic as the AWB. It is not just a floor, but potentially a ceiling—something to which my hon. Friend has George Eustice: I do not want this debate to get referred. distracted, but even in the current Parliament the coalition Government have changed tax thresholds that help all working people, especially those on the lowest income. George Eustice: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly Another problem with the rigid pay structure is that, good point. Farming has changed. as currently structured, it can discourage training and The biggest farm employer in St Ives is a firm called career development in small farm businesses. I will Winchester Growers, which does not receive subsidies explain why. A small farmer might have two or three like the large farmers and tends to rent land and employ employees. He might not be able to afford to employ lots of people. Quite often, young men who would have someone on grade 2, grade 3 or grade 4. He might not had farms themselves become managers and supervisors really have a need for those staff to be trained to those within such businesses and have a proper career structure, grades, but might nevertheless take the view that to aid with profit options, share options—all sorts of things. the career development of a new employee—perhaps It is very important that we modernise and move on. 955 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 956

The AWB is a relic of the past. It is full of “bosses Government and championed by Harold Macmillan. versus workers” rhetoric that is frankly 40 years out of That is 100 years of history now about to be torn up. I date. It is right that it should go. absolutely do not accept the argument that the Agricultural Wages Board is no longer relevant in modern times. 4.35 pm Mr Bellingham: The hon. Gentleman obviously has a Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I start great deal of expertise, and I agree entirely with his by declaring an interest: as deputy general secretary of points about the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. I the old Transport and General Workers Union and then supported that Bill, as did a number of my colleagues, Unite, I represented agricultural workers for much of when we were in opposition. After the war, many farmers my working life, and was proud so to do. employed perhaps 50 or 60 people on what would now I start by celebrating England’s green and pleasant be considered a smallish family farm, and there was of land—our hills, our valleys, our forests, our farms, our course a need for a trade union and for the Agricultural rivers and our seashores, captured in that great hymn to Wages Board. It would have been difficult for those the countryside, Linden Lea: farmers to negotiate with their farm workers without “Within the woodlands, flow’ry gladed, such a board. Now, however, those farmers employ a By the oak tree’s mossy moot, tiny number of people who are much better paid because The shining grass-blades, timber-shaded, of the relationship between the farmer and the workers which never existed in the past. Now do quiver under foot… And brown-leaved fruits a-turning red, In cloudless sunshine, overhead… Jack Dromey: We have an atomised work force. There has been a progressive change in employment patterns To where, for me, the apple tree from what was typically the case 50 years ago to smaller, Do lean down low in Linden Lea.” more flexible work forces with a lot of contract labour But elsewhere in that great hymn to the English countryside and very few people being permanently employed on it reads: farms. Having said that, the statistics show that the “I don’t dread a peevish master; majority of those covered by the AWB still need the Though no man may heed my frowns”. minimum standards that the board lays down. I will come to that point in a moment. That great hymn captured both the beauty of our countryside and another reality, which is that all too I do not accept that the board is an historical often the countryside has been scarred by the unfair anachronism—far from it—not least because half the treatment of workers and rural poverty. I have worked work force is aged 55 and over and we still need to with farmers all my working life, so I am the first to recruit and retain people to work on the land. Nor is it acknowledge the changes in the industry and the many true to suggest that the board was set in aspic and never very good farming industry employers, but there remain changed. Over the years, as a consequence of some very to this day real problems. good dialogue, a modernisation process took place. The 19th century, from Tolpuddle onwards, was a The proposal for the AWB’s abolition is fundamentally century of struggle, with real progress being made in wrong for four reasons. The first involves fair treatment. the 20th century, but before anyone argues today that This is not just about minimum standards. Crucially, it exploitation in the countryside is a thing of the past, let is also about other conditions of employment, which me say this. I listened to the Prime Minister at Prime really matter. The simple reality is that the difference Minister’s Question Time speaking, and rightly so, about between the statutory arrangements and the board’s modern-day slavery. Some of the worst examples of arrangements will be that, in future, it will be possible slavery, historically and in the modern day, were practised for a farmer to pay someone who is off sick £81.60 a by gangmasters, as was seen at its most obscene in the week less. Farming is a dangerous occupation for some, tragic death of 22 young Chinese cockle-pickers on the and we often see high levels of sickness as a consequence bleak, cold shores of Morecambe bay. of the work. As a consequence of that incident, I chaired the Secondly, abolishing the AWB is an inefficient way of coalition of support that brought the Gangmasters proceeding. I asked the House of Commons Library to (Licensing) Act 2004 into law. It was a private Member’s research the costs of the board, and I was surprised by Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Paisley and the answer. I knew that it was lean and effective, but Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan). There was a remarkable even I was surprised to learn that its administrative coalition from plough to plate, from the National Farmers costs were £179,000 a year and its enforcement costs Union to the supermarkets. I shared platforms with were £150,000. That fully functioning Agricultural Wages Baroness Gillian Shepherd, and we stood together, arguing Board therefore cost a grand total of £329,000. for a measure that was essential to tackle some of the Now, however, we shall see tens of thousands of most obscene practices in the world of work in our negotiations taking place throughout the agriculture country. Sadly, now, we are seeing, on the one hand, the sector. I accept that, depending on the nature of the scaling back of the operation of the Gangmasters Licensing employment pattern, people can often get paid more Authority and, on the other hand, the proposed abolition than the level strictly laid down by the AWB. That of the AWB. happens all the time, as a result of a demand for a It was Winston Churchill who first took action, as particular skill. However, the hon. Member for St Ives President of the Board of Trade, in 1908. He argued (Andrew George) was right to say that, other than in then that we needed fair treatment and to act to keep circumstances of exceptional demand, it is convenient labour on the land. That was legislated for by the Attlee for farmers to use the framework laid down by the 957 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 958

[Jack Dromey] Jack Dromey: The board was born out of the experience of the agricultural economies. I have already said that, board. Farmers have said that to me, too. In future, mercifully, our country has many good farmers who are however, we shall see negotiation after negotiation dealing with changing patterns of mechanisation, the consuming the time and effort of our farmers. demand for greater skill levels and so forth. Pretending, however, that the exploitation of agricultural workers in the past is somehow simply a problem of the past and Andrew George: My hon. Friend the Member for not still a problem to this day is not to live in the real Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) suggested world that I have lived in for many years. earlier that farmers were used to sitting down and negotiating with suppliers of feed, seeds and so on, but Winston Churchill must be turning in his grave. Dare there is of course a framework involved in those cases I say it, the two parties of which he was a member have as well, and those farmers know what the framework is come together to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board when they commence their negotiations. If there is a for which he laid the path. The Prime Minister has said, total free-for-all, we run the risk of creating a race to after all, that he is proud to be a member of the the bottom. union—not the Transport and General Workers Union or Unite, but the National Farmers Union. His position, then, is not surprising. It is astonishing, however, that Jack Dromey: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right the Minister of State, Department for Environment, to be concerned about a race to the bottom. There are Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Somerton tens of millions of people on the continent who are and Frome (Mr Heath), who has talked in recent years—not desperate for work, and the last thing we want to see as 50 or 100 years ago—about the need not to impoverish a consequence of these proposals is a race to the bottom. the rural working class should now, presumably following My experience suggests that even where farmers depart a Damascene conversion, talk about the need to get rid from the AWB rates of pay—and they often do—it is of the Agricultural Wages Board as a burdensome helpful to have a clear framework and starting point, anomaly. Perhaps he will explain later how he squares varied as appropriate in particular circumstances, depending those statements. on the skill level required, for example. Something very In conclusion, this issue is above all about what is in similar to that was put to me. the best interests of the countryside. The question we My third concern is the impact on local economies. need to ask ourselves is what kind of country and what There is no question but that we run the risk of taking kind of countryside we want to live in. I could put it no out badly needed spending power from our hard-pressed better than the hon. Member for St Ives did when he local economies. It is interesting to note the Department’s spoke earlier about the meaning of us all being “in it impact assessment of the costs over a 10-year period: together” in circumstances where a £1 million cheque £260 million was, I think, the figure referred to. can go to a big farmer on the one hand, while the Agricultural Wages Board is abolished on the other Fourthly, we have heard time and again that “other hand. That is why we are unashamedly standing up for wages councils have been abolished, have they not, and the best traditions of our country and the best traditions have not been reinstated”. This board is, however, unique of our countryside—and the best traditions of our in terms of its scope—including, crucially, the issue of countryside are best served by a fair deal for our countryside. tied accommodation. I repeat what my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) said earlier about Several hon. Members rose— the criteria: fit for human habitation, safe and secure, a bed for sole use, drinking water and sanitation. Some Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I might say that all that sounds a bit 19th century, particularly remind the House that the debate is time-limited, and the idea of a bed for one’s own use. They would not say must end at 5.47 pm. It will be necessary to draw it to a that if they had seen the sort of places I saw when I was conclusion at about 5.27 pm in order to allow the Front deputy general secretary of the old T and G and then of Benchers to respond. Unite. I saw some of the most shameful accommodation— I ask Members to curtail their remarks to eight and not just for those employed by gangmasters, as it minutes—which will include interventions on their was sometimes for those employed by farmers. The speeches—because otherwise not everyone who wishes great thing about the Agricultural Wages Board is that to speak will be able to do so. I ask those who are it lays down very clear basic minimum standards for the intervening repeatedly, and who may have already spoken, kind of accommodation that I hope we would all like to to exercise a bit of discipline. I ask those who do not see agricultural workers occupying in our countryside. plan to speak to restrain from intervening out of respect for those who are still to speak. I remind those who are still to speak that they do not have to give way. It will Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): I am most then be possible to accommodate everyone who has sat grateful, particularly when I was not able to be here for patiently through the debate thus far. the opening speeches. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about rural poverty, and I strongly support the Gangmasters 4.50 pm Licensing Authority, as I campaigned for its existence and it is doing great work in my constituency. In a Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I am grateful genuine spirit of curiosity, I ask the hon. Gentleman for that guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me whether he is saying that farmers are uniquely incapable begin by drawing the House’s attention to my declaration or uniquely exploitative so that they alone require the in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Agricultural Wages Board to regulate their behaviour, We should recognise the progress that agriculture has while every other boss in Britain does not. Is that what made over the last 70 years. We are now well fed as a he is saying? nation, without the worry of food security. We should 959 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 960 recognise what a good job agriculture, agricultural workers game? Is it about making a political point rather than a and farmers have done in feeding the whole of Europe genuine one about improving the lot of people working during those 70 years since the second world war, and, in rural communities? when we compare the industry of today with agriculture As a number of speakers want to follow me, I shall in the 1940s, we should recognise how different it is keep my comments as short as possible. I hope that in now, and how different are the relationships of agricultural summing up, the Opposition speaker will address some staff with their employers. of the points I made. The first argument that we heard from the Opposition— that abolishing the Agricultural Wages Board would 4.56 pm not save any money—wholly missed the point of the debate. This is not about saving cash for the Government; Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I it is about recognising the changing dynamic of agricultural am pleased to take part in the debate. I have a constituency work in the United Kingdom in a modern setting, and interest, and I led for the Opposition in the Committee recognising the safeguards that have been introduced by on the Public Bodies Bill, so it is a matter of some other Governments and other parties. The minimum disappointment to me that in the intervening two years wage established a floor for the wages of all workers the Government have not refined their arguments, nor and has given them wage security, while changes in the have they produced further evidence to suggest why the legislation governing gangmasters have protected board should be abolished. Given the catastrophic effect agricultural workers who are employed by them. The abolition could have on the pay, terms and conditions Agricultural Wages Board has become redundant. It is of the country’s 152,000 agricultural workers, not least no longer a necessity because there are other safeguards, in my constituency, where well over 100 workers will be irrespective of the changes in the dynamic of agriculture. affected, it is important to ask serious questions of the Government about why they consider it necessary and, Let me draw a few comparisons. If an agricultural in particular, whose interests they are serving. worker who is charged with the responsibility of driving As we have heard, the Agricultural Wages Board was quarter of a million pounds’ worth of combine harvester formed in 1948, but its lineage goes back to 1924. The makes a mistake in setting the sieves, much of the crop fact that it has survived so long is testament to its may go over the back of the combine. For the farmer, it continuing relevance. My hon. Friend the Member for is vital that the right member of staff, with the right Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) is right: it has skills, is sitting in that seat to protect his crop. I do not modernised over the years and could modernise further. understand why a warehouse worker driving a forklift The board has demonstrated its importance for protecting truck for Amazon does not need extra protection, but the rights of workers in the sector. Those rights are now the combine harvester driver does. very much at risk. A potato harvester can probably harvest £50,000 The Government’s response when asked why they worth of crop, so damage to just 10% of that crop could want to abolish the AWB is that agricultural workers, cost a farm business £5,000 a day. Again, for the farmer like others, are now covered by minimum wage legislation. it is vital that the right member of staff is driving that Excellent though the minimum wage legislation is, it tractor and helping to ensure that the business is well does not cover the same range of wage levels and looked after. If the right member of staff with the right categories as the AWB. The agricultural industry needs skills is to sit on that seat, the farmer must pay him the to attract people with the right skills and aptitude, right amount. The farmer must give him the right terms which is becoming more important as farming methods and conditions, or else he will walk off to another continue to develop technologically. The AWB has a farmer. grading system for the terms and conditions of employment The market for skills of that kind is driving agricultural for agricultural workers that reflects the diversity of wages to a much higher level than was provided for by skills needed and the responsibilities attached. As many the Agricultural Wages Board. Agriculture as an industry others have said, minimum wage legislation does not has changed dramatically since the 1960s. The House cover the many other areas overseen by the AWB, such must recognise that. as the standard of tied accommodation, overtime rates, sick pay and holiday entitlement. Why are the Government Another argument we heard was that agricultural abolishing the board, and in whose interests will it be? workers are particularly vulnerable because they live in When the Public Bodies Bill was being considered in tied cottages. I do not understand why the Opposition Committee, far from Labour Members being out of do not make the same argument for public house managers line, as the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and who work for a brewery and whose home is the public South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) suggested, it was house itself. Why do they not require the extra protection Government Members who were out of line, because farm workers supposedly have from the Agricultural the only people supporting abolition were some parts of Wages Board? The manager of a post office often has a the National Farmers Union. Indeed, it was only some flat above the business. Their accommodation is tied, so in the union. We received many representations from why do they not require extra protection? Double standards farmers and farm workers who thought that getting rid are in play. of the AWB was an extremely bad idea because they Agriculture has moved on. The key question is whether liked the structure that it gave to negotiations. the Opposition would overturn the abolition if they We know that the abolition is not in the interests of were in power. They were challenged on that point not only hard-pressed agricultural workers, who stand several times during the debate and on three occasions to lose significantly from the change, but those wishing they refused the opportunity to answer. There is some to enter the sector. I have a very good agricultural and cynicism on the Government Benches. Is it a political horticultural training college in my constituency. From 961 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 962

[Roberta Blackman-Woods] type of farming that we carry out. In dairy farming, the milking parlours are equipped with computers which talking to several of the young people studying at determine, for example, the amount of feed that the Houghall, I know that they are worried about what will animals have. In the poultry industry, the buildings are happen to terms and conditions in the sector following temperature-controlled and farmers must make sure the abolition of the AWB. They are also concerned that that the poultry are fit and free from disease. The same they will no longer have a clear career ladder after applies in the pig and sheep industries. The entire farming leaving college, yet no Government Member has addressed industry has changed hugely. When one gets on to a that problem. We know from Lantra, the skills body tractor, it lights up like a Christmas tree because there is overseeing the sector, that another 60,000 people will so much computer equipment in it, reflecting the fact soon be needed in the industry because 25% of agricultural that it is difficult to operate. Of course we value the workers are over 55. Ministers cannot seriously be farm workers who operate all that equipment. suggesting that the abolition of the board will make the The farming industry is progressing. Reference was industry more attractive to young people, because they made to the green and pleasant land that we all live in have told me directly that it will not. and the good, healthy food that we are fortunate to have The abolition is not in the interests of the rural in this country. Who produces it? The farmers and the economy as a whole, especially in the north-east, given farm workers. We produce it together and I am proud to that millions of pounds will be taken out of an economy be part of that industry. I am sick to death of this that is already suffering from high unemployment. The debate, which is all about the long history of the Agricultural Government’s policies have hit my constituency hard. Wages Board and from where it started. I would be the The latest unemployment figures show that City of first to admit that there was every good reason for it in Durham’s claimant rate has almost doubled in the past those days, but now we have minimum wage legislation 12 months, which is one of the biggest rises in the and an industry that has moved on. We want agriculture country. It will be difficult for people in the agricultural to be competitive and to move forward and employ sector to argue for a better standard of living when more people on higher wages. We want a much more unemployment is so high, because they will be told, “If efficient industry. you don’t like it, lump it, because there are lots of I believe there is a bright future for agriculture. All people in the county who will be able to take your job.” the Agricultural Wages Board does is hark back to a The Government simply are not addressing that problem, past that we want to leave behind. It is right for us to yet because the abolition of the board will remove take these decisions. The figures that we have show that workers’ protections, it will be more difficult for them to more than 90% of agricultural workers are, fortunately, argue for a better standard of living. paid above the minimum wage, and we welcome that I will conclude, because I want to give others time to fact. During the debate, the sheer negativity from the speak, but it is difficult to understand what the abolition Opposition has upset me. I would take their move to of the board will achieve. It does not cost much to defend the Agricultural Wages Board much more seriously operate, but it protects workers in the sector, and sets a if they had replied to the question—they have been clear framework for negotiations and a career structure. challenged three times on this—of whether they would It could be modernised in line with the new skills make retention of the AWB a priority of the next needed for farming, but one can only assume that the Labour Government if this country were mad enough Government, as they have shown with other policies, to put them back into power. I will therefore reply for are hellbent on driving down the wages of the low-paid them. They are not going to replace it. That is certain. in this country while at the same time giving tax cuts to millionaires. All the Opposition are here for today is to play politics and try to portray the farming community as terrible Victorian employers. We certainly are not. I say 5.3 pm “we” because I consider myself still part of that farming Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I am community. I do not recognise the farming community proud to say that I still consider myself to be very much painted by the Opposition. I find it offensive—I will be part of the farming community. I was saddened by the blunt about it—to be portrayed in that way. We do not way in which the shadow Secretary of State tried to employ people on poor wages. We want to progress portray farming and farmers. I took part in a debate on people. During my farming career I had quite a number Radio Devon after she had made a statement in which of young people who came and worked on the farm. We she went on at great length about things such as trained them, they moved on to other jobs and I am gangmasters, as if to suggest that every farmer was a proud of that. terrible employer, but I do not recognise that situation Let us not make this a debate about class warfare, in Devon or across the farming sector. with terrible rich landowners who are out there exploiting I am saddened by how the debate has proceeded. the workers. That is not what the debate is about. It Some 40-odd years ago, I left school at the age of 16 to should be about whether the Agricultural Wages Board milk cows. I started on a farm of 50 acres. With the help is necessary. I do not believe it is. Why is it the only of NatWest bank, which charged me enormous sums wages board left? It was left originally because there for the privilege, I managed to build up the farm to was no minimum wage legislation, but since that legislation about 250 acres. During that period, we sometimes has come in, there is no need for it. Hon. Members are employed people, while at other times we did all the worried that farmers and farm workers who have such work ourselves. responsible jobs on the modern farm cannot sit down Farming and the farming community have changed with one another and negotiate their own wage rates. so much. Many hon. Members have made the case that Surely hon. Members know that that is possible and farm workers are extremely valuable because of the that it will happen in the real world. 963 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 964

We have already abolished the Agricultural Wages the good guys do not need the legislation, but legislation Board, but I will be voting against the motion, which is necessary for those who do try to exploit people and seeks to reinstate it, because I know full well that it will who do not necessarily play by the rules. As I have said, not be reinstated. It is a political ploy on the part of the most farmers want to be fair. Opposition to have a little debate. I end by reiterating, Many farmers in areas such as rural Wales are both for the third time, how offended I am by the way in employer and employee, because they often work on which the farming community has been portrayed this contract for other farmers. They might sometimes employ afternoon. agricultural workers, but they or members of their family might also be employed as agricultural workers. 5.10 pm They have said themselves that it is not about being unable to set pay rates, but that it is far simpler and Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Ministers have still not fairer in a rural community to say that everyone will go convinced me about why they want to abolish the by the same rate. That is the importance of the AWB, Agricultural Wages Board. If they are so convinced that and that is exactly what the FUW has been telling us. agricultural wages will not go down, why are they so determined to abolish it? Why should it matter to them Of course, it is not just about a minimum wage, if it continues to exist and people continue to be paid at because there are all the other things that the AWB sets, the rates it sets? such as allowances for night work and being on stand-by, DEFRA’s own assessment has calculated that abolishing bereavement, sick leave, holiday entitlement and the the AWB will take £260 million out of the rural economy rates for under-16s, none of which are covered by the over the next 10 years. That can mean only one thing: national minimum wage legislation. In a rural community the 80% of agricultural workers who are on grades 2 to there are few alternative job opportunities and it is 6 will be vulnerable to having their pay driven down to difficult for agricultural workers to find alternative minimum wage levels, regardless of the skills involved, employment. The cost of living is often higher because not to mention the antisocial hours and the need to be of the higher costs of transport and fewer opportunities out in all weather, using complex machinery, but still to shop around for cheaper deals. getting wet and dirty. Of course, that means less money Those who rely on their employer for accommodation in the rural economy, with a knock-on effect for the are even more vulnerable. There is often no alternative village shop and others employed locally. accommodation in rural areas, and the AWB plays a We talk about fair trade for developing countries and vital role in setting maximum charges for accommodation getting a fair price for their products so that their and minimum standards of sanitation, and in making farming communities can get reasonable rewards for sure that each worker has their own bed to sleep in. their efforts. After much campaigning by Opposition What will happen when casual workers start their Members, and indeed the hon. Member for St Ives next job and find that the going rate is less? For many of (Andrew George), the Government have agreed to give them that will mean that their households incomes fall, the groceries code adjudicator some teeth, which is an so more families will become more reliant on higher important step towards tackling exploitation and giving levels of tax credit, which will not be good for the public farmers a fair price for their produce. However, it is purse. It would be far better to make sure that they had equally important to ensure that the workers who harvest the proper rate of pay for their work and a proper wage that produce are fairly remunerated, and the AWB has a from their employer, so that they could be less reliant on vital role in protecting agricultural workers. handouts. In other words, it is not enough that the groceries This is part of a seemingly much wider attack by the code adjudicator ensures that the supermarket does not Government. I regret that the legislation to abolish the exploit the farmer; the AWB’s conditions also ensure AWB is being passed in such an unpleasant way and by that the farmer does not exploit the worker. That is the back door, when the Welsh Government made a particularly important because, as a response to the very strong case to keep it in Wales when it was part of Macdonald report, the Government are now threatening the Public Bodies Bill, not the Enterprise and Regulatory to reduce the impact of the Gangmasters Licensing Reform Bill. This has done a terrible disservice to our Authority, whereas we would like to see its remit extended rural communities. to cover sectors such as care homes and construction. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said, the Farmers Union of Wales is 5.16 pm firmly opposed to the abolition of the AWB. I find it quite insulting that the hon. Member for Carmarthen Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I support the West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) seems Opposition motion to resist the abolition of the Agricultural to have completely ignored what the FUW has on its Wages Board. Government Members have accused us website and what it has repeatedly said when it has of waging class war, but this is an issue of social justice come to see us. and if that means that it is also an issue of class, I make no apology. Simon Hart: What I actually said was that the members My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington of that union in my constituency who have approached (Jack Dromey) quoted Winston Churchill, who, amazingly, me take a different view. has been quoted three or four times by some surprising sources in this place over the past couple of weeks. I Nia Griffith: Well, farmers in general want to be fair looked up Mr Churchill’s quote, and hon. Members to their staff, and I would certainly say to the hon. might be interested to know that he spoke in class Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) that terms: 965 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 966

[Grahame M. Morris] I was intrigued when my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) mentioned that the Minister of “It is a serious national evil that any class of His Majesty’s State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural subjects should receive less than a living wage in return for their Affairs, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome utmost exertions…where you have what we call sweated trades”. (Mr Heath), used to be a vociferous supporter of the There are no bankers or accountants present on the retention of the Agricultural Wages Board. Early-day Government Benches, but there are some farmers and motion 892 of the 1999 to 2000 Session, which he others associated with the industry. They will know supported, stated that what sweated trades are, so I do not need to explain that “any weakening of the Agricultural Wages Board or its abolition to them. On sweated trades, Churchill said that would further impoverish the rural working class, exacerbating “you have no organisation, no parity of bargaining, the good social deprivation and the undesirable indicators associated with employer is undercut by the bad, and the bad employer is undercut social exclusion”. by the worst…where those conditions prevail you have not a What has changed? Is it that the AWB is outdated and condition of progress, but a condition of progressive bureaucratic? Have the conditions of agricultural workers degeneration.”—[Official Report, 28 April 1909; Vol. 4, c. 388.] changed so much that we do not need it? I do not think That was Winston Churchill arguing for the establishment that that is the case. of the Agricultural Wages Boards, so who am I, as a socialist, to argue with Winston Churchill? He was The third of agricultural workers who live in tied absolutely right. accommodation will no longer be protected by a cap on the amount that their employers can charge them for In his excellent speech the hon. Member for St Ives accommodation. They would risk losing their homes if (Andrew George) spoke of how the industry has developed they rejected downgraded contracts. That implication and how farming has morphed into large agri-businesses of the abolition was raised with me by an agricultural and the food trade has gone global, and how that has worker. We have also heard that the abolition will put particular pressures on rural workers. potentially cost agricultural workers £260 million in lost We on the Opposition Benches are concerned that the sick pay and holiday pay over the next 10 years. living standards for rural workers will go backwards. It Although the Government’s mantra is that they want is scandalous that last week we were not even afforded to make work pay, the abolition of the Agricultural the courtesy of a debate, let alone a vote. The Government Wages Board will lead to a race to the bottom in wages should think a thousand shames that they whisked and terms and conditions for agricultural workers, and through their plans to not just dismantle, but to abolish will therefore make work pay less. If wage protections the AWB. It was disgraceful that Parliament was disregarded are abolished, agricultural workers will see their terms by a Government in a hurry to sweep away 100 years of and conditions squeezed. Nobody is tarring all farmers workers’ rights and a century of consensus on rural with the brush of being unscrupulous employers and living wages and housing standards. my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington Members keep asking why those rights should apply was at pains to point out that many of the farmers he to rural workers and not to other groups of workers. As came across were very good employers, but there will be we have heard from a number of Members, the answer some who pass the pressure from the supermarkets on relates to tied accommodation, training and compassionate to their workers. That is a real concern. leave. The provisions also apply to workers who have to Costs are much higher in rural areas than in urban have dogs, presumably for sheep farming, so the AWB is areas. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation found in 2010 different and there is a strong case for retaining it. that people living in rural areas spent between 10% and We saw just this week in The Sunday Times rich list 20% more on everyday needs than those in urban areas. that there is still massive personal wealth in the United The Office for National Statistics estimates that the Kingdom. Among those who are doing the best and weekly spending of rural households is more than who are luxuriating in extreme largesse are a number of £50 higher than that of urban households, which must UK food manufacturers—not large farmers—including be a problem for a rural workers. Morrisons, Sainsbury’s and 2 Sisters, which is one of It would not have been acceptable not to have a the biggest food processing companies in Europe. At debate, and it is not acceptable for the Government to No. 80 in the rich list is Lord Vestey, the owner of ignore the outcome of the consultation; let us put it on Stowell Park, which is one of the businesses that lobbied the record that it indicated that the board should be for the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. retained. They are facilitating the redistribution of income Government Members accuse Labour Members of away from some of the most vulnerable workers in the arguing the case of the trade unions. I am a proud land to some of the wealthiest private individuals in the member of Unite the Union and make no apology for land. That is why the Opposition motion and the debate that. If standing up for agricultural workers is a sin, I are to be welcomed. am guilty and unrepentant. However, it is also clear I ask the Government to show the same care and who is behind the abolition of the Agricultural Wages attention to the living standards and wages of the Board. It is the big businesses that are tightening their poorest as they have to the richest 1%, who are now grip on the food industry that lobbied for its abolition. enjoying a top rate tax cut. If they wanted to protect the The abolition will affect 150,000 people in England living standards and wages of the poorest in society, and Wales and about 5,500 agricultural workers in my they could make a good start today by not abolishing region. I have discovered that 55 families in my constituency the Agricultural Wages Board and by allowing trade will be affected. We have heard about the history of the unions, employers and independent representatives to establishment of the Agricultural Wages Board, so I continue to negotiate fair terms and conditions for will not rehearse it. vulnerable workers. 967 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 968

5.25 pm the voting Lobby—have been extensively lobbied by agricultural workers in their communities. The question Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): On occasions is this: how will they vote today? such as this, at the closing of a debate, we often hear words about what a fine debate it has been, what In the midst of the economic gloom of Osbornomics— eloquent testimony Members have given and what a that is a commentators’ phrase—with the economy fine day it is for Parliament. There have indeed been flat-lining and the rural economy suffering too, the some very fine contributions today, from both sides of Government’s own figures show that more than a quarter the House, and I will return to some of them in a of a billion pounds could be taken out of the rural moment. economy following abolition of the AWB, and as my Today, however, I have to say that this is not a shining hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) occasion for Parliament. Far from it. It is a disgrace that pointed out, we could well add to the burden by increasing the Government seem to have been dragged kicking and rural poverty and the in-work benefits bill to the taxpayer. screaming into the sunlight to debate an issue that they This is, indeed, the world turned upside down. seem to want hidden from democratic oversight. That is no fault of yours, Mr Deputy Speaker, but entirely the fault of Ministers. The attempts to curtail debate, or Jack Dromey: My hon. Friend is making a powerful even to bypass the elected House of Commons and the case. Members on the Government Benches have asked democratic will of the Government in Wales on the what Labour would do when in power in 2015. I know matter, have been shameful and truly desperate. how difficult it will be to pick up the pieces of this appalling mess, but would my hon. Friend care to Today, the views of parliamentarians, including Members comment on that? representing rural areas, will be revealed to their constituents through both the debate and the vote. Their views will be revealed on stripping away the protections of 152,000 workers in England and Wales—protections on pay Huw Irranca-Davies: I welcome the opportunity to scales and accommodation; sick pay, holiday pay and do so, because it has wrongly been said that we have overtime; caps on charges for tied accommodation; already made up our mind not to re-establish the AWB. protections for children under 16 working in the fields; When the AWB is abolished, it will, in effect, be shattered and the simple and basic entitlement of an agricultural into little pieces. Its mechanisms will be entirely taken worker in a team of workers at the end of a long shift to away, but I will tell my hon. Friend what we will do: their own bed—their own bed, for goodness’ sake. The Labour has already made clear its proposals under the Minister of State has argued that the national minimum Fair Work Commission—which I hope Members on the wage has changed all that, but he knows that it was in Government Benches will support, even though they place before he signed an early-day motion warning opposed the work of the Low Pay Commission, which that the abolition of the AWB would resulted in the national minimum wage, which they have been praising today. There will be a new commission “impoverish the rural working class”. that will consider our emerging proposals on the rural We are now in the most preposterous situation. A living wage, extending the remit of gangmaster legislation Liberal Democrat Minister is working, I suspect—he and tackling the agency workers question, and thereby will clarify this—against his own long-held and principled addressing the undercutting of pay and conditions in position; against the views and interests of more than local areas. That will no doubt be the arena in which 1,000 workers and their families in his constituency, our response to the abolition of the AWB will be many of whom will have lobbied him in recent weeks developed. I suspect—in fact I can guarantee—that the and months,; against the views of many smaller, hard- Government parties will not be carrying out any similar pressed farmers who see the abolition as an increase in piece of work. [Interruption.] complexity in wage negotiations; against the views of the Liberal Democrat lead on rural and environmental Any pretensions to respect—[Interruption.] I think issues in Parliament, the hon. Member for St Ives Government Members want to know whether we would (Andrew George), which prompts the question: will the put the egg together again after they have broken it into real Lib Dems please step forward?; and in favour of an a thousand pieces. I hope they understand from what I ideology that could well be one of “beggar the hindmost”. have just said that many of the proposals we already have in relation to the Fair Pay Commission run completely contrary to the free market, deregulatory ideology, and Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I therefore both the Conservative Secretary of State and have been chairing a meeting of the Environment, Food the Liberal Democrat Minister would oppose them, but and Rural Affairs Committee this afternoon. I suspect many of the Minister’s Liberal Democrat I apparently have the largest number of agricultural friends would support them. workers in my constituency, and not many of them have contacted me on this matter. I do not think more than Any pretensions of respect for the views of this three have done so. Where is the hon. Gentleman getting democratically elected House and the Welsh Government his information from? were ripped apart by this coalition Government when they sought at every opportunity to bypass votes and debate in this House. This proposal should have been Huw Irranca-Davies: The hon. Lady says she has taken through in full in what was then the Public Bodies been contacted by just three, but three is three, and I Bill, and then brought back here and fully debated at know for a fact that a large number of Members—many length in this Chamber—and the issue of the legitimate of whom are, for understandable reasons, not present for right of the Welsh Government to be heard should also this debate, but who will, I assume, be passing through have been discussed. Instead, the proposal was rushed 969 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 970

[Huw Irranca-Davies] and smaller farmers and stand against rural poverty. I appeal to Conservative MPs who want to speak up for through a pitiful four-week consultation after the new all their constituents, small farmers as well as large, Secretary of State arrived in post. The majority of low-paid as well as wealthy.They should be compassionate, respondents to that consultation in England and Wales one nation Tories, not just the representatives of the opposed the abolition of the AWB, but that was ignored. wealthy and the powerful in the countryside. If I cannot The proposal was then snuck into Committee in the appeal to their better nature, let me appeal to their baser other place in a different Bill, the Enterprise and Regulatory political instinct—not least those whose parliamentary Reform Bill, which had already left the Commons, thus majorities are smaller than the number of agricultural avoiding the need for any awkward debate here. After workers in the constituencies affected, such as the hon. heated exchanges, and opposition from bishops, Labour Members for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) and for Camborne peers and some Cross Benchers, the Lords eventually and Redruth (George Eustice), and many others. supported the abolition. When the proposal returned to I am glad we have had this debate. Some have commented this House as Lords amendments, we were denied the that it is like closing the stable door after the horse has time and the opportunity to debate it or even to vote on bolted. That is no fault of ours, but when the vote it. So here we are today, in a debate brought by the comes, people will see where Members stand on a fair Labour Opposition. rural community, fair wages and fair conditions for As we debate this matter today, therefore, the everyone. Government have conspired to abolish the AWB through the unelected House of Lords. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State for Education says “Hear, hear.” He may 5.37 pm regard democratically elected representatives so lightly, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, but we do not; we like to have a say on behalf of our Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): The hon. rural, and other, constituents. I ask the Government to Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire think again. (Simon Hart) did the House a service by pointing out I appeal to all parliamentarians who support the the disparity between last night’s excellent debate in the abolition to think again. My right hon. Friend the Member name of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn for Delyn (Mr Hanson) appealed to Unionist Conservatives Davies)—in which we heard contributions from all parts who are concerned about taking a cross-England and of the House, from Members who knew rural areas, Wales approach and about cross-border issues to maintain knew the agricultural industry, were deeply committed the AWB. In no way is the hon. Member for St Ives to it and understood what the implications were—and somehow in hoc with union paymasters—contrary to today’s debate, which sadly has on occasions fallen the allegations that have been made against Members short of that ideal. this afternoon—or acting at someone else’s behest. He That is not to say that there are not Members present speaks independently as the lead voice for the Liberal who very much understand rural areas and represent Democrat party, as opposed to the Minister, on rural their constituents, but that is not how I would characterise issues. On that basis, what we are seeing is quite fascinating. the opening speech from the hon. Member for Wakefield My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Mary Creagh), representing Islington Labour and its South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) called this deeply patronising view of what happens in rural areas a living standards debate. He is quite right. He said the and the capabilities of people who work in rural areas. I proposal did not make economic or moral sense in the resent that in the same way that the hon. Member for 1980s, under former Prime Minister Thatcher, and it Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) did. However, we does not make sense now either. My hon. Friend the welcome the fact that the hon. Lady has finally returned Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) to the Chamber to hear the conclusion, if not the brought some poetry and morality to the debate. He substance, of the debate that she called. raised the real alternative to abolition, which is further Let us deal with the issues raised, the first of which is modernisation, which has happened before—a point the lack of debate on this issue. I am extremely sorry: I made also by my hon. Friend the Member for City of regret that there have not been debates on the precise Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods)—and asked the motions that came from the other place last week. fundamental question: what type of countryside do we However, to say that there has been no debate on the want? issue is nonsense. Over the last three years I have My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) debated this subject for hours with Members represented said that fairness was about not just the groceries code in this debate. We have had endless debates on a subject adjudicator, but fair pay and conditions. My hon. Friend on which everybody knew every side of the argument, the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) cited so that claim is nonsense. We could even have addressed Churchill in defence of the Agricultural Wages Board. it—I say this to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives As we noted earlier in the debate, even former Prime (Andrew George), who made the point of order—when Minister Thatcher stayed away from abolishing the we had the debate on the Lords amendments the other AWB. There were also great contributions from my day. Indeed, had the shadow Business Secretary, the hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Pat hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna)—whom we Glass), the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and are always glad to see in this country from his clubbing South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) and others. expeditions abroad—decided that this issue needed to I appeal to all those Lib Dem parliamentarians who be debated, as colleagues say it does, he could have done long held this as a point of principle and who have been so. There was time to debate it but he chose to make lobbied by their constituents. They should stand with speeches on other subjects instead. That is why we had their constituents and with us, support low-paid workers no debate. 971 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 972

The hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat apparently hopelessly inadequate for the other 0.5%. Glass) said that there was no meaningful consultation However, I believe that the national minimum wage—which and that we did not notify people. I sent 13,000 letters after the recent settlement is now well ahead of the first to every single person or organisation covered by the grade of pay for agricultural workers—is a valuable order on agricultural wages, explaining what was to be protection. done and asking for comments. That is unprecedented. Every single worker who is currently paid under the It did not happen under the Labour Government but protection of the Agricultural Wages Board will continue we did it because we wanted to ensure that people had to receive that protection and to enjoy every aspect of the opportunity to respond. their pay and conditions, and we shall ensure that they The issue of Wales was raised. Let me let the House receive the benefit of legislative protection on that. into a secret: I did not produce the legislation that provided for the devolution settlement in Wales, and Labour’s Roberta Blackman-Woods: Will the Minister give way? devolution settlement did not devolve employment issues to the Welsh Assembly Government. That is Mr Heath: I am afraid I have no time left. why such matters remain an issue for this House and Opposition Members are telling us that the basement this Government. No amount of argument from Welsh protection for the lowest-paid workers is the 2p difference Ministers will change that settlement, only a change in per hour between last year’s AWB rate and the national the statutory format for the devolution settlement, which minimum wage, and that that makes all the difference to I do not believe the Labour party supports. rural poverty. I am afraid I do not believe that. Let us consider the substance of this case, which is As many Government Members have said, agricultural the crux of the matter. workers are a precious resource in our rural areas. Do Opposition Members not understand that farmers cannot Jack Dromey: Will the Minister give way? get a skilled stock man or woman in many areas? They have to pay them to attract them. Do they not understand Mr Heath: I will because the hon. Gentleman has that farmers do not put someone on the national minimum some knowledge on this subject and I therefore welcome wage in charge of a £500,000 machine? That is the his views. reality of the modern agriculture industry. We are therefore left with a statutory body that, Jack Dromey: Will the Minister tell the House at uniquely, deals with career progression in one half of what point and why he moved from believing that the one industry—the AWB does not apply to everybody in abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board would food and farming. I simply do not believe that a statutory “impoverish the rural working class” body is necessary to do that—we can do it in better ways. I want to see career progression, flexibility of to his current position of saying that it must be abolished contracts and modern conditions. Those are the keys to as it is a “burdensome anomaly”? a modern and effective agricultural industry.

Mr Heath: There were a number of points. There was Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to the introduction of the Part-time Workers (Prevention move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). of Less Favourable Treatment) Regulations 2000, the Employment Act 2002, the Fixed-term Employees Question put forthwith, That the Question be now (Prevention of Less Favourable Treatment) Regulations put. 2002, the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004, the Pensions Question agreed to. Act 2008, the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Learning Act 2009, and the Agency Workers Regulations That the original words stand part of the Question. 2010. All those provided the protections that I wanted for rural workers. They exist, and that is why we no The House divided: Ayes 215, Noes 283. longer need the Agricultural Wages Board, because it Division No. 225] [5.46 pm duplicates that position. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and I am glad he asked AYES me that question. Abbott, Ms Diane Blears, rh Hazel In reality, when we debated these issues, Labour Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Blenkinsop, Tom Members in support of the Labour Government resisted Alexander, Heidi Blomfield, Paul me when I spoke about rural poverty and denied that Ali, Rushanara Blunkett, rh Mr David the biggest single removal of money from rural areas Allen, Mr Graham Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben was the fuel escalator, which far outweighed anything Anderson, Mr David Brennan, Kevin that could possibly happen through the provision under Ashworth, Jonathan Brown, Lyn discussion. They resisted my Fuel Poverty Bill applying Austin, Ian Brown, rh Mr Nicholas to rural areas; they would not even allow for the existence Bailey, Mr Adrian Brown, Mr Russell Bain, Mr William Buck, Ms Karen of rural poverty, yet now they have the nerve to lecture Balls, rh Ed Burden, Richard the Government about what happens in rural areas. Barron, rh Mr Kevin Byrne, rh Mr Liam Let me be clear because misinformation—deliberate Bayley, Hugh Campbell, Mr Alan I think—is being spread about some areas of this subject. Beckett, rh Margaret Caton, Martin There is a suggestion that people who work in the Begg, Dame Anne Champion, Sarah agriculture industry will no longer have any protection, Benn, rh Hilary Chapman, Jenny which is absolute nonsense. The national minimum Berger, Luciana Clark, Katy wage affects 99.5% of all workers in this country but is Blackman-Woods, Roberta Clarke, rh Mr Tom 973 Agricultural Wages Board24 APRIL 2013 Agricultural Wages Board 974

Clwyd, rh Ann Jamieson, Cathy Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Trickett, Jon Coffey, Ann Jarvis, Dan Sarwar, Anas Twigg, Derek Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, rh Alan Sawford, Andy Umunna, Mr Chuka Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Seabeck, Alison Vaz, rh Keith Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham Sharma, Mr Virendra Vaz, Valerie Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Sheerman, Mr Barry Walley, Joan Cruddas, Jon Joyce, Eric Sheridan, Jim Watts, Mr Dave Cryer, John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shuker, Gavin Whitehead, Dr Alan Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara Skinner, Mr Dennis Williams, Hywel Cunningham, Sir Tony Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Williamson, Chris Curran, Margaret Lavery, Ian Smith, Nick Winnick, Mr David Danczuk, Simon Leslie, Chris Spellar, rh Mr John Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Darling, rh Mr Alistair Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Stringer, Graham Wood, Mike David, Wayne Long, Naomi Stuart, Ms Gisela Woodcock, John Davidson, Mr Ian Love, Mr Andrew Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Woodward, rh Mr Shaun De Piero, Gloria Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Wright, Mr Iain Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Docherty, Thomas Mactaggart, Fiona Thornberry, Emily Tellers for the Ayes: Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thurso, John Susan Elan Jones and Doughty, Stephen Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Phil Wilson Dowd, Jim Malhotra, Seema Doyle, Gemma Mann, John NOES Dromey, Jack Marsden, Mr Gordon Dugher, Michael McCabe, Steve Adams, Nigel Cash, Mr William Durkan, Mark McCann, Mr Michael Afriyie, Adam Chishti, Rehman Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry Aldous, Peter Clark, rh Greg Eagle, Maria McClymont, Gregg Amess, Mr David Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Edwards, Jonathan McDonagh, Siobhain Andrew, Stuart Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Efford, Clive McDonald, Andy Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Coffey, Dr Thérèse Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Bacon, Mr Richard Collins, Damian Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Baker, Steve Colvile, Oliver Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Baldry, Sir Tony Cox, Mr Geoffrey Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Alison Baldwin, Harriett Crabb, Stephen Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Barclay, Stephen Crockart, Mike Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Barker, rh Gregory Crouch, Tracey Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Baron, Mr John Davey, rh Mr Edward Flint, rh Caroline McKenzie, Mr Iain Barwell, Gavin Davies, Glyn Flynn, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Beith, rh Sir Alan Davies, Philip Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael Bellingham, Mr Henry de Bois, Nick Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Benyon, Richard Dinenage, Caroline Gardiner, Barry Miliband, rh Edward Beresford, Sir Paul Djanogly, Mr Jonathan George, Andrew Miller, Andrew Berry, Jake Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Bingham, Andrew Dorries, Nadine Glass, Pat Moon, Mrs Madeleine Binley, Mr Brian Doyle-Price, Jackie Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica Birtwistle, Gordon Drax, Richard Godsiff, Mr Roger Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Blackwood, Nicola Duddridge, James Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellis, Michael Goodman, Helen (Easington) Boles, Nick Ellison, Jane Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Green, Kate Munn, Meg Bottomley, Sir Peter Elphicke, Charlie Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bradley, Karen Eustice, George Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Brady, Mr Graham Evans, Graham Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Bray, Angie Evennett, Mr David Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Brazier, Mr Julian Fabricant, Michael Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Bridgen, Andrew Farron, Tim Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Brine, Steve Field, Mark Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Brokenshire, James Foster, rh Mr Don Harman, rh Ms Harriet Osborne, Sandra Brooke, Annette Fox,rhDrLiam Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Browne, Mr Jeremy Francois, rh Mr Mark Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George Hendrick, Mark Perkins, Toby Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Freer, Mike Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen Buckland, Mr Robert Fuller, Richard Hermon, Lady Powell, Lucy Burley, Mr Aidan Garnier, Sir Edward Hillier, Meg Qureshi, Yasmin Burns, Conor Gauke, Mr David Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Jamie Burns, rh Mr Simon Gibb, Mr Nick Hodge, rh Margaret Reed, Mr Steve Burrowes, Mr David Glen, John Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Ritchie, Ms Margaret Burt, Alistair Goldsmith, Zac Hoey, Kate Robertson, John Cairns, Alun Goodwill, Mr Robert Hopkins, Kelvin Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gove, rh Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Rotheram, Steve Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James Hunt, Tristram Roy, Lindsay Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris Irranca-Davies, Huw Ruane, Chris Carswell, Mr Douglas Green, rh Damian 975 Agricultural Wages Board 24 APRIL 2013 976

Greening, rh Justine Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Wallace, Mr Ben Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Miller, rh Maria Stewart, Rory Ward, Mr David Griffiths, Andrew Mills, Nigel Streeter, Mr Gary Weatherley, Mike Gummer, Ben Milton, Anne Stride, Mel Webb, Steve Halfon, Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stunell, rh Andrew Wharton, James Hames, Duncan Moore, rh Michael Sturdy, Julian Wheeler, Heather Hammond, Stephen Mordaunt, Penny Swales, Ian White, Chris Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Whittaker, Craig Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Swinson, Jo Whittingdale, Mr John Harrington, Richard Morris, David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wiggin, Bill Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Teather, Sarah Williams, Stephen Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Thornton, Mike Williamson, Gavin Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Tomlinson, Justin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hayes, rh Mr John Munt, Tessa Truss, Elizabeth Wright, Jeremy Heald, Oliver Murray, Sheryll Turner, Mr Andrew Wright, Simon Heath, Mr David Newton, Sarah Tyrie, Mr Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Hemming, John Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Young, rh Sir George Henderson, Gordon Norman, Jesse Vaizey, Mr Edward Zahawi, Nadhim Hendry, Charles Nuttall, Mr David Vickers, Martin Tellers for the Noes: Herbert, rh Nick O’Brien, Mr Stephen Walker, Mr Charles Mr Robert Syms and Hinds, Damian Offord, Dr Matthew Walker, Mr Robin Mark Hunter Hoban, Mr Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Hollobone, Mr Philip Ottaway, Richard Holloway, Mr Adam Paice, rh Sir James Question accordingly negatived. Hopkins, Kris Paisley, Ian Horwood, Martin Parish, Neil Business without Debate Howell, John Patel, Priti Hughes, rh Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pawsey, Mark EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Huppert, Dr Julian Penrose, John Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Order No. 119(11)), James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Javid, Sajid Pickles, rh Mr Eric Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pincher, Christopher COUNTERFEITING OF THE EURO AND OTHER Johnson, Gareth Poulter, Dr Daniel CURRENCIES Johnson, Joseph Prisk, Mr Mark That this House takes note of European Union Document No. Jones, Andrew Pugh, John 6152/13 and Addenda 1 to 3, a draft Directive on the protection Jones, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic of the euro and other currencies against counterfeiting by criminal Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Mr John law, and replacing Council Framework decision 2000/383/JHA; Kawczynski, Daniel Reckless, Mark and welcomes the opportunity to consider whether the UK Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John should opt in to the draft Directive.—(Nicky Morgan.) Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Question agreed to. Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reid, Mr Alan Lancaster, Mark Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm PETITIONS Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Detrunking of part of the A69 Latham, Pauline Robertson, rh Hugh Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan 6.1 pm Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I am pleased to be Leech, Mr John Rudd, Amber able to present this petition on behalf of my constituents Lefroy, Jeremy Ruffley, Mr David asking the House of Commons to urge the Department Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Sir Bob for Transport to examine the feasibility of the detrunking Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura of the A69 from the roundabout at Brampton to junction Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee 43 of the M6. The petitioners and I believe that that Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Shannon, Jim would make the road a great deal safer for all concerned, Lord, Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant including those in the villages along the route, which Loughton, Tim Sharma, Alok includes a primary school. The petition has more than Luff, Peter Shepherd, Sir Richard 1,600 signatories. Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris The petition states: Macleod, Mary Smith, Miss Chloe The Petition of County Councillor Nick Marriner, Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Henry Declares that the A69 should be detrunked from the roundabout May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Sir Robert at Brampton to Junction 43 of the M6 and rerouted along the Maynard, Paul Soames, rh Nicholas A689 and that this will make the current A69 a safer road for the McCartney, Jason Soubry, Anna communities which live alongside it. McIntosh, Miss Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of Commons McPartland, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark urge the Government works with Cumbria County Council to McVey, Esther Stanley, rh Sir John ensure this happens. Menzies, Mark Stevenson, John And the Petitioner remains, etc. Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Bob [P001172] 977 Business without Debate 24 APRIL 2013 978

Mobility access to Goring and Streatley Station Girls and ICT Careers Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House John Howell (Henley) (Con): I should like to present do now adjourn.—(Joseph Johnson.) a petition from more than 1,000 local residents about the railway station at Goring in my constituency. 6.3 pm The petition states: Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I The Petition of residents of Goring and Streatley and the am delighted to have this opportunity to speak to the surrounding area, House on such an important issue today. Tomorrow is Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about the provision international girls in ICT day, so it is particularly appropriate of mobility access to Goring and Streatley station. that we should mark the occasion by debating what we The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons can do to attract more girls into information and urges the Government to support the installation of lifts at communications technology.I understand that the Minister Goring and Streatley railway station when the station footbridge for Culture, Communications and the Creative Industries, is rebuilt in 2013–14 as part of the track electrification programme, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), will be thus ensuring that mobility impaired passengers are able to have equal and step-free access to the trains that serve the station. marking the day by speaking at a “Little Miss Geek” celebration of fashion and technology; I am glad to see And the Petitioners remain, etc. a Government Minister supporting efforts to encourage [P001173] girls into ICT. Celebrating technology, and women’s contribution to it, is one way of helping the sector to become more representative of the 51% of the population who do not have the Y chromosome. Right now, women make up only 12% of professional engineers and 15% of those applying for computer science degrees. I hope that the Government, and particularly the Minister, will do more than speak at events and offer warm words of encouragement. I hope—indeed, I expect— that they will implement concrete measures to ensure that we overcome the dreadful disparity in the representation of women in ICT—a disparity that shames us as a nation, as well as impeding our economic and social progress. As you may know, Mr Speaker, this subject is dear to my heart. Having worked as a professional engineer in telecommunications for 23 years before entering this House, I know just how much more can be done to encourage and support women in ICT. Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): Speaking as one who has been a computer programmer, I, too, understand the need for increased opportunities for girls to go into the communications and technology industries. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need a cross-government strategy that involves the education system as well as the Department for Culture, Media and Sport? We need to improve the opportunities available for girls at schools and to encourage them by role models to learn about science, computer programming and other useful subjects. Chi Onwurah: I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution and welcome the bringing of her direct experience of computer programming to this debate. She is absolutely right. I shall explain in the remainder of my speech the wide range of issues that need to be addressed if we are to overcome this disparity. We really need a positive approach and champions for it across the whole of government. When I started my degree, 12% of my fellow electrical engineering students were women. That was almost 30 years ago. It sounds like a very long time, and it is indeed depressingly long. The most depressing thing of all, however, is that although women now make up 43% of GPs, 41% of solicitors and even 22% of Members of Parliament—a third in the Labour party, I should add—the proportion of female engineering students has not increased at all. That is scandalous. In computer science, as my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) may well know, the figures are getting worse. 979 Girls and ICT Careers24 APRIL 2013 Girls and ICT Careers 980

The proportion of computing A-levels taken by women I worked in ICT as an engineer for 23 years. I must went down from 12% in 2004 to 8% in 2011. There is emphasise that I was often fortunate enough to have only one girl for every 11 boys in the average UK great male bosses who were determined that working in A-level computing class. We should imagine how it feels an all-male, or almost all-male, environment should not to be that girl. be a barrier to a successful career for a woman. However, I have known other managers who were not so supportive, Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I congratulate and company cultures that worked against attracting the hon. Lady on securing a debate on this incredibly girls and women into ICT and did absolutely nothing to important subject. In the specific part of the video help them to stay there. games industry, only 17% of staff are females and the Last year, when I was a shadow business, innovation industry is crying out for more. What we really need is and skills Minister, I wrote to 10 of the leading companies role models to inspire the next generation and address in the engineering and technology sector to ask what that imbalance. they were doing to improve the situation. I wrote to BAE Systems, Google, Microsoft, IBM, ARM, Rolls-Royce, Chi Onwurah: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that BP, Shell, Ford and Jaguar Land Rover. Their responses contribution. It is certainly the case that the video are summarised on my website. What was quite amusing games industry is a modern one; one would hope that it was that two of the companies addressed their letters of would be reflective of society, including those who play response to “Mr Onwurah”. I shall not name them, but games, but it is not. I shall show a little later that the it did make me wonder how accustomed they were to figures I have for females in the video games industry engaging with women. are even worse than the hon. Gentleman’s 17%. Not surprisingly, nearly every company claimed that At the same time, half of the UK’s co-educational it was hiring women in proportions above the national state schools send no girls at all to sit A-level physics. In average. The exception was ARM, which candidly said 2012, 2,400 female students from the UK went on to that the proportion of women was higher in its divisions full-time undergraduate computer courses, as opposed outside the UK, especially in India. Female literacy in to over 15,000 men. Between 2001 and 2011, the percentage India is just 65%, while male literacy is 82%. The fact of technology jobs held by women declined from 22% that India is doing so much better than we are in regard to 17%. My figures show that only 6% of those who to ICT gender balance is particularly striking for that work in ICT in the UK games industry are women, reason. despite the fact that they make up 50% of those who play the games. It is also striking that IBM did not respond to my inquiry despite repeated entreaties, while Google and Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Member Microsoft responded but refused to release any figures. for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) raised an important As relatively young companies, at least in comparison issue earlier. I spoke to the hon. Member for Newcastle with, for instance, Shell and Rolls-Royce, they might be upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) before the debate, expected to be at the forefront of gender equality. Both asking if I too could intervene on her speech. Google and Microsoft cited confidentiality as their reason for not revealing the proportion of women whom According to e-skills UK in Northern Ireland, the they employed in ICT. That is rather strange, because it potential for Northern Ireland to be a global leader in suggests either that Google and Microsoft do not know the field of technology will increase over the next few how to aggregate and anonymise such information—which, years, and 9,200 jobs will be needed over a five-year given that they are leaders in big data management, is period. Along with the industry, e-skills UK in Northern worrying—or that they have so few women employees Ireland is taking active steps to encourage ladies and that giving the figure would necessarily identify individuals. young girls to become involved. Does the hon. Lady That is also very worrying. think that the active measures that are being taken in a region of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and The more traditional companies were more open Northern Ireland might serve as an example for the rest about releasing figures, with Ford giving the most detailed of the United Kingdom? breakdown across different job types. Most firms said that the main problem was a lack of qualified female Chi Onwurah: I agree that we need to be very active in candidates in ICT, engineering and science, and all the encouraging girls into the industry. I am pleased to hear firms said that getting more women into those fields about the job opportunities in Northern Ireland. There was a corporate priority. Most outlined steps that they are other job opportunities throughout the country, were taking, from overhauling corporate procedures, and we need to ensure that girls are in a position to take for example, making sure that women were on interview advantage of them. panels, to intervening early in schools to steer girls towards STEM—science, technology, engineering and Gender segregation is at its most extreme in skilled maths—subjects and careers. trades such as that of electricians. Women constitute only 1% of the work force in such occupations, which is Companies emphasised the importance of female barely significant in statistical terms. I commissioned role models in encouraging female graduates or apprentices House of Commons Library research which has armed to join them, and detailed the steps they were taking to me with a large—depressingly large—number of similar develop networking forums or to push high-potential statistics. It is clear that we are doing much worse in this females up the employee hierarchy. ARM was the most regard than many of our European and OECD forthright when asked what private or public sector counterparts. I want to focus on what we can do about initiatives firms found useful. It said it, “we” being the ICT sector, civil society and, as I hope “most initiatives that directly address the issue are clearly failing the Minister will acknowledge, the Government. at a national level and make little difference.” 981 Girls and ICT Careers24 APRIL 2013 Girls and ICT Careers 982

[Chi Onwurah] girls’ toys are generally pink and patronising, and rarely involve any ICT participation, while boys’ toys tend to According to the ARM representative, the most effective be more centred on engineering, machines and ICT. means would be role models and TV commentators or The sample of responses that I received demonstrates presenters who make the subjects sexy and exciting. I just how much is being done. I am worried that Microsoft agree in part. A high profile ICT series on TV would and Google, which are role models in their own right, probably change perceptions overnight. We saw what do not appear to want to let anyone know how well—or the success of “Silent Witness” did for the proportion of how badly—they are doing. I trust that the Minister women in forensics. agrees that it is essential that we have such information The responses I received showed that there is such if we are to understand what we need to achieve. a wide range of challenges to address that we need a However, I was impressed by the measures that many wide-ranging response, as was mentioned earlier. companies are taking to attract girls to ICT, which suggests that there an increasing desire for change which Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does my hon. was missing during large parts of my career in the Friend agree that employers could do much more by industry. Indeed, I was at an industry event only last offering work placements, early apprenticeships and night at which several representatives of large ICT visits to factories, and that the Department for Education companies raised that issue with me before I had the needs to do more to encourage interaction? Young chance to ask them about it. Given that I usually raise people could then make decisions much earlier about the issue with such companies at a very early stage, one whether ICT was a career they would be interested in. can imagine how quickly they beat me to it by talking Often, it is too late when they are 18. about that to me. There is a large number of initiatives in place, and as Chi Onwurah: I thank my hon. Friend. She raises an part of my preparation for this debate, and given that extremely important point and I shall dwell on it in tomorrow is girls in ICT day, I crowd-sourced examples more detail later. She is right. One of the key messages from Twitter. I was impressed by the number of that I hope the Minister will take from the debate is the organisations that are actively working to attract girls importance of ensuring engagement with employers. to ICT. For example, Nominet is sponsoring computer Often employers are willing to make arrangements to clubs for girls and Sunderland Software City in the go into schools, but do not feel that they can identify north-east is setting up a coders academy. Primary schools or know how to set about it. Engineer encourages primary school pupils to engage We should encourage employers to engage with schools. with STEM education. As we have heard, we know that One of my first parliamentary questions was to ask who it is critical to engage girls at a young age, before was responsible for ensuring engagement between industry preconceptions have formed, because by the time that and primary schools. The response was that no one in they are taking their GCSEs, they might have ruled the Government was responsible, in either the Business themselves out of ICT due to earlier choices. Little Miss or Education teams. Perhaps the Minister could comment Geek, Girl Geeks and ScienceGrrl try to inspire girls on that in her response. into ICT, while WISE promotes female talent in science, As well as improving the image of ICT, we need to engineering and technology from classroom to boardroom. look at the working environment of women in ICT, and Athena SWANand STEMNET—the science, technology, at higher, secondary and, very importantly, primary engineering and mathematics network—support women education, which my hon. Friend mentioned, and careers in ICT and STEM careers, and help to them become advice. We also need to look at our culture, which role models for the next generation. socialises girls to think that ICT is not for them. While there are many initiatives, the challenge is to know how well they are working and how to help them Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Does my to work better, yet I fear that the Government are failing hon. Friend have a view about the suggestion of some to take up that challenge. I suspect that the Minister will educationists that it would be helpful if some schools disagree with that, but let us look at the evidence. The separated girls in ICT classes? Some people say that Government ended funding for UKRC, the organisation when boys get into the ICT classroom they dominate dedicated to supporting girls and women into ICT. the machines. They claim to be making the ICT curriculum more flexible, but they are in fact simply disapplying all Chi Onwurah: My hon. Friend makes an interesting standards and requirements of the national curriculum. point. In single-sex schools, it is certainly the case that They have reduced support for, and undermined, careers more girls study A-level science than in co-educational advice, which is the key way of helping into ICT those schools. There is evidence that girls do better in a many girls who have no direct contact with ICT single-sex environment. It is not clear whether that is professionals as part of their background. due to the presence of strong female role models or, in The Government have reduced support for small and other schools, the influence of boys who may be more medium-sized businesses. Increasing diversity in the aggressive in taking resources. I would say to my hon. workplace can be more challenging for SMEs that do Friend that schools should examine ways of ensuring not have dedicated human resource departments and that girls are engaged and excited. For example, I know may instead rely on older recruitment methods—for that all-girl science and computer science clubs successfully example, employing friends of current staff, which means engage girls with ICT in an environment that they find that the work force does not become more diverse over comfortable and stimulating, which is what we are time. Of course, employing one’s friends can happen in trying to achieve. If we are considering how society larger organisations, and even in Government. But the socialises girls away from ICT, we could wonder why Government should be offering more support for skills 983 Girls and ICT Careers24 APRIL 2013 Girls and ICT Careers 984 in small businesses, rather than turning Business Link There is also an intangible loss, but a hugely important from a face-to-face support organisation into a website one, to our society. Many of the challenges we face, and a phone line. such as climate change, an ageing population with We have no roadmap, no plan, no targets and no greater health needs and a world of 7 billion people, framework to help us assess whether we are on the right have technology at their heart, but we are handicapped track to attract more girls into ICT. Can the Minister in addressing them because technology does not have a explain what the Government are doing? Can she say place in our hearts. Technology will never have the how, for example, if I am a teacher in a primary school position it merits at the heart of our society and economy in Newcastle, I can find out what resources are available if it remains the preserve of such a narrow section of to make ICT more appealing, and what incentives there society. To drive our economy forward sustainably, ICT are for doing that? What steps are the Government needs to be a part of our society and our culture. Given taking to use subjects which do engage girls, such as the challenges we face as a nation, we cannot allow ICT climate change, to make ICT more appealing? Will to remain such a male occupation. removing climate change from the national curriculum In conclusion, to improve the gender balance in ICT make that easier or harder? How is the Minister ensuring the Government need to show leadership in ways that that primary school teachers in particular have the right are more concrete than mere warm words of support. I ICT skills themselves, given the higher salaries paid in hope that is what I will hear in the Minister’s response. the private sector? Research shows that because of the cultural factors relating to ICT and girls, the quality of teaching is a far more important factor in girls’ decisions in relation to ICT than it is in boys’ decisions. 6.30 pm What are the Government doing in response to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education Nesta report on video games entitled “Next Gen— (Elizabeth Truss): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Transforming the UK into the world’s leading talent Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) for raising hub for the video games and visual effects industries”, this important subject and respect her experience in the which said: sector. It is a crucial area for the economy, and one where we need to increase the number of people, particularly “The content and delivery methods of computer science teaching will need to change to address ... misperceptions (especially in the women, who have relevant IT skills. eyes of girls)”? Earlier today I attended a “hackathon”event at Facebook In December 2011, Ofsted said in its report “ICT in headquarters, where 80 talented young coders from schools 2008-11”: around the world were developing applications for social learning, and I am pleased to say that there was a good “Very few examples were seen of secondary schools engaging with local IT businesses to bring the subject alive for their representation of young women there. Organisations students. This was a particular issue for girls, many of whom need such as Facebook are doing an enormous amount of a fuller understanding of ICT-related career and education options good work with schools to inspire young people to take to inform their subject choices at 14 and 16 years of age.” up careers in IT, but let us be honest: we have a How has cutting back the careers service Connexions to long-standing problem with computer science in this become solely an online and telephone service helped country and with the number of women studying it. this? The House of Commons Education Committee As the hon. Lady will be aware, under the previous described this change as resulting in a “worrying Government the proportion of women taking computing deterioration” in the overall standard of careers advice. A-levels fell from 12% to 8% as a proportion between The lack of women in ICT is a scandal but it also a 2004 and 2011. The current situation is indeed poor. huge loss. It is a loss to the country, with a talent pool For A-level computer studies in 2012, only 255 of the half the size it could be. Every year the Institution of 3,420 entrants—just 7.5%—were girls, which represents Engineering and Technology’s skills survey shows a a decline of three quarters over the past 10 years. There severe skills shortage, and it is no wonder if we are is a similar problem with physics, as 6,500 girls took excluding half our population. I am sure the Minister physics A-level in 2012, which is only 21% of the total will be interested to know that it also represents a loss cohort, and the situation has remained static over the to women in not having entry to these rewarding careers past 10 years. The number of girls studying maths and therefore contributes to the gender pay gap. The A-level has doubled over the past 10 years, but the average technology professional’s salary was over £38,000 situation is not as positive for further maths, which is per year in 2011, 50% higher than the average across all very important for STEM subjects at university. Some sectors. 3,700 girls took further maths in 2012, which is only 30% of the cohort. The lack of women in ICT represents a loss to society of the types of ICT that might come from non-male As the hon. Lady pointed out, the situation is very perspectives. I do not hesitate to say that an ICT work different in other countries, particularly emerging economies, force that was more representative of humanity would which have seen their share of women studying computer result in technology which was more humane. All too science and engineering increase drastically. In India often technology is imposed upon us aggressively and the proportion of female undergraduates has doubled, before it is fit for purpose. And yes, I am thinking of and in Malaysia technical jobs are dominated by women. automatic tills at supermarkets when I say that. It is As she pointed out, 26 April is international girls in ICT common sense, because we know that innovation comes day, which is very important. The Government think from the creative exchange of ideas between individuals. that the situation has to change. If all the individuals in a company or sector come from A lot has changed in IT since I used to program the same background, there is necessarily a limit to the BASIC at school in the 1990s. There has been a technology ideas and innovation. revolution. Technology affects every area of our lives 985 Girls and ICT Careers24 APRIL 2013 Girls and ICT Careers 986

[Elizabeth Truss] The Department has been working in partnership with the British Computing Society to help to prepare and so many different jobs. It has changed the way we teachers for the challenges of teaching this curriculum. do politics and business and so many things about how I assure the hon. Lady that many employers and leading we deliver public services. A sound knowledge of how companies in the IT industry are already engaged in ICT works and of the underlying architecture of computing helping schools to implement that curriculum. is important for everybody, whether they are looking to I announced this morning that the Government will get into motor manufacturing, politics or any area of provide the British Computing Society with more than commerce. It is a universal skill that we all need, and all £2 million over the next two financial years to support young people will need it. It is a very important part of the training of computer science master teachers, who our curriculum developments. That is why we are reforming will then communicate with other teachers across the the ICT curriculum. We disapplied the existing curriculum network to make sure that the subject is taught well in because it was not fit for purpose. all our schools. I agree with the hon. Lady that we need to start Justin Tomlinson: That is an incredibly important young in encouraging girls to take up these careers. It is point, because when I visit representatives of the UK important that young people should be encouraged not games industry, they say time and again that graduates to close off options by dropping subjects that may be simply are not equipped with the necessary skills and important later. That points to a wider issue relating to almost have to start again, and that more often than not engineering, IT and other STEM disciplines, because it is easier to import labour from abroad, which is those subjects have the highest earning premiums with creating further barriers to females and males in this regard to A-level, degree and PhD, and women often country who could play an important part in this growing lose out on the possibility of valuable and engaging economy. careers because they do not study those subjects earlier in their school life. Elizabeth Truss: I thank my hon. Friend for that We think that primary school is really important, and point and agree with it. Our new computing curriculum we are strengthening the mathematics curriculum. It is is very different, because it is not just about how to use also important that children are exposed to programming the software and programmes, but about getting young and coding at an age when they can see their potential people coding from a very early age and understanding and how exciting they are before going to secondary the architecture of computing. school. That is a critical part of our programme. Britain has a wider cultural problem—I think a few Chi Onwurah: Can we clarify this point? We have the other countries suffer from it as well—with the perception ICT curriculum and the computing curriculum. There of careers in computing, IT and engineering and people are no guidelines or standards for ICT, because the not understanding the wide variety of careers available. national curriculum has been disapplied, but are there I have been in discussions with leading companies, any guidelines to encourage girls and make it more some of which the hon. Lady has mentioned, about appealing to them? I am pleased to hear that the computing how we can raise the profile of engineering, show the course has been made more vigorous. myriad options available and raise the profile of IT and make it an aspirational career for young people. I think that primary school is particularly critical in being able Elizabeth Truss: To be clear, under the national to do that. curriculum, what was the ICT curriculum will be called the computing curriculum, so we are renaming the My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon subject. We have been working with the British Computing (Justin Tomlinson), who is interested in financial education, Society to create a new curriculum that addresses issues will be interested to know that I discussed with the such as how to use digital devices, but that also focuses Personal Finance Education Group this morning how much more on understanding programming and coding. we can talk about the value of careers as part of Primary school students will, therefore, be doing financial education, so that children understand what programming from quite a young age, using programmes skills will be expected in the careers of the future and such as Scratch, which has been developed by the what they should study if they want to achieve those Massachusetts Institute of Technology and which enables goals in their life. young children to programme an on-screen cat to do It is important to mention that a career in ICT is not certain things. It is attractive for children and gives just about computing. Scientific and mathematical skills them an understanding of how programming works. By are needed as well. We are working to ensure that the time they get to key stage 3, they will be learning at everybody studies mathematics to age 18 by introducing least two programming languages, so this is a real step new core mathematics qualifications for students who change. have a GCSE but are not doing A-level maths. We have We have also recently announced that GCSE computer announced an expanded further mathematics support science will be added to the list of science options in the programme to ensure that the number of students who English baccalaureate. We are, therefore, taking computer take maths and further maths continues to increase. The science very seriously as a subject. We recognise the feedback that I have received from the IT industry is importance of computing knowledge and skills for the that it often recruits from other countries because there future of the economy, so we want to raise its quality are more students with higher level maths skills. and profile in schools. We also want to make it a We are giving computing a new impetus through a universal subject that is attractive to boys and girls challenging new curriculum, sustained support for teacher alike, which is important. training and robust qualifications. 987 Girls and ICT Careers24 APRIL 2013 Girls and ICT Careers 988

Chi Onwurah: I welcome the measures that the Minister more direct links with schools. It is helpful for students has mentioned on improving the teaching of maths, to see a local business person in the classroom and to computing and STEM subjects more generally. That is understand what they do and what opportunities are very important, but will she say what she is doing out there. It is therefore helpful for businesses to engage specifically to support girls into ICT? directly with teachers. We have made the new national curriculum much more flexible so that teachers can Elizabeth Truss: Because we are making the subject design their own curriculum that is based on the national universal, girls will be doing programming as well as curriculum, but that reflects the resources available locally boys. That is important. As the hon. Lady said, it is and engages with the master computer science teachers important not to gender divide this technology, which that we are creating. underlies the whole of our society and politics. We have programmes for getting girls to study physics, such as Chi Onwurah: Will the Minister give way? the Stimulating Physics Network. However, our view is that so few students are learning programming skills at an early age that the best thing to do is to have a Elizabeth Truss: No, I am sorry, but I have already universal programme that reaches everybody. taken a number of interventions. A lot of organisations work in this area—the hon. It is now up to schools, working with industry, to Lady mentioned some of them—such as the Computer engage all pupils, particularly girls, and ensure that they Club for Girls, the Code Club, the Computing at School have the opportunities they need. ICT skills need to be network and Apps for Good, the chief operating officer universal and something that we as a society do. Computer of which in the UK, Debbie Forster, is an excellent role science will be taught in the national curriculum alongside model for girls in the industry. subjects such as maths, English and languages, because There is a particular issue with girls that we need to we believe it to be vital. address. However, I believe that our focus on ensuring I am grateful to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon that teachers are trained up so that they understand the Tyne Central for raising the issue. The need for more career opportunities in IT and know what programming girls doing IT, physics and maths should be higher up is and how to teach it to young children will be critical the agenda of our national ambitions, so I am grateful in shaping the future and in shaping young girls’ to her for drawing attention to it. Demand for high-level expectations of their potential. skills in computing will only grow in the years ahead, I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising these issues. and it is vital that we tap into the 50% of the population who are not currently doing as much IT as they could. Julie Hilling: Before the Minister moves on, will she We must also improve the general level of programming say more about careers? There is now a deficit in the skills across the spectrum. careers advice for all young people, but particularly for In work, academia and their personal lives, young girls. Such advice often rests with teachers, who might people will depend on their technological literacy and not have any experience of industry, having gone from knowledge, and we have a duty to ensure that they have school to university and back to school. How will she the right skills that will serve them well in their future bridge that gap and provide more careers education that study and career. allows young people to understand the vast range of jobs in engineering, and in ICT specifically? Question put and agreed to.

Elizabeth Truss: I thank the hon. Lady for making that point. Our approach is to engage with industry through 6.46 pm the British Computer Society to ensure that there are House adjourned.

301WH 24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 302WH

Guantanamo. It was arranged at Britain’s request for Westminster Hall Binyam Mohamed, a former detainee and British resident. Will the Minister consider reinforcing that request? Wednesday 24 April 2013 Further to that, recent reports of US troops in riot gear assaulting the minimum security wing of the facility with batons and rubber bullets are particularly troubling. [JOHN ROBERTSON in the Chair] Mr Aamer reports to his lawyer that he is being “assaulted”, as he puts it, by the so-called forcible cell extraction Shaker Aamer team when he asks for anything, including his medication. I am concerned, and Parliament should be concerned, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting about the apparent disconnect between the various be now adjourned.—(Alistair Burt) reports from Guantanamo Bay and what US authorities say to our Government. Will the Minister comment on 9.30 am that? Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): Good morning. I am Many people here will be aware of the details pleased to open the debate under your chairmanship, of Mr Aamer’s case, but for those who are not, a bit of Mr Robertson, and to welcome colleagues here to support background might be helpful. Shaker Aamer is a 46-year-old this important debate. I thank everyone who signed the Saudi national and a permanent resident of the UK. He e-petition that helped to secure it and I am glad that we had permission to live in the UK indefinitely, based on were able to do so so quickly after the e-petition hit the his marriage to a British national. Mr Aamer has been 100,000 signature threshold. I thank everyone who made held by the US Government, without charge, in the that happen, including the hon. Member for North East Guantanamo Bay detention camp for more than 11 years. Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), Chair of the Backbench He met his wife, Zinneera, in 1996 and started a family Business Committee, the Speaker, and the Under-Secretary in London. His wife and four children, Johina, Michael, of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my Saif and Faris—all of whom are British citizens—live hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire in Battersea and are my constituents. His father-in-law, (Alistair Burt). Mr Siddiqui, who started the e-petition, lives in Tooting, as do many of his supporters. The right hon. Member Guantanamo Bay, extraordinary rendition and the for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) is in his place; he cannot practice of effectively interning detainees without due speak because he is a Front Bencher, but I am grateful process are wrong, and worse, a foreign policy disaster for his support for the debate and for the ongoing for our important ally, the United States. However, I am campaign to free Mr Aamer. not here today to try to solve the problems of Guantanamo Bay or make general criticisms of US foreign policy—those In the summer of 2001, Mr Aamer went with his wife debates are for another time. I am leading the debate to Afghanistan. Shortly after, coalition forces entered with the sole aim of understanding what more the the country. He managed to get his wife and children British Government and the US authorities can do to safe passage out of Afghanistan and they eventually make the release of Mr Shaker Aamer, my constituent, arrived home. He had to separate from his family to and his return back to his family in London—the protect them because, like many other foreign nationals, clearly stated policy of the British Government—more particularly Arabs, Mr Aamer was picked up by Afghan likely. warlords and sold to the American forces, who were apparently paying thousands of dollars in bounties for The debate has been given greater urgency by reports anyone suspected of being an enemy combatant. After of a new round of hunger strikes, which started on a short time at the detention facility in Kabul, he was 6 February, and conflicting information about Mr Aamer’s transferred to the US Bagram airbase and then to the health. His US lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith, and the US Kandahar base, before being rendered to Guantanamo. Foreign and Commonwealth Office have confirmed He arrived at Guantanamo Bay on 14 February 2002, that Mr Aamer is one of at least 63 detainees involved the day his youngest child, Faris, the son he has never in the hunger strike. From previous legal declarations met, was born in London. The explanation of why he made by Mr Stafford Smith following visits to his client was in Afghanistan is, in my view, beside the point. I in Guantanamo Bay, I understand that Shaker Aamer’s have never met Mr Aamer and have never taken a view health was already poor and declining, even before the on why he was there. The fact remains that he languishes current round of hunger strikes began. Mr Aamer now in Guantanamo Bay and has been there for more than fears that he will die in the camp, and his family and I, 11 years without a charge being brought against him and many others, are extremely concerned for his physical associated with his time in Afghanistan or any other and mental well-being. The US Under Secretary of period. Defence for Policy, James N. Miller, wrote to me on 26 February stating that Mr Aamer was in “good Shaker Aamer is one of the last 166 detainees still health”. The Minister wrote to me on 17 April telling held at the facility, out of a total of 779 brought there me a US official had stated: from around the world from January 2002 onwards. He “Mr Aamer is in a stable condition” is Detainee 239. He has been cleared for transfer on two separate occasions by the US Government: in June and that 2007, when the Bush Administration conceded they had “he is being offered medical treatment”. no evidence against him; and again in 2009, following Mr Aamer’s lawyers have a long-standing request that the review of detainees initiated by President Obama’s the Foreign Office persuades the US authorities to Executive Order 13492, called “Review and Disposition allow an independent doctor to visit Mr Aamer in of Individuals Detained at the Guantánamo Bay Naval 303WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 304WH

[Jane Ellison] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate; she Base and Closure of Detention Facilities”. It was headed has done a good service here today. Perhaps the Minister by Special Envoy Daniel Fried and was one of newly will give a better answer, but does she know the British elected President Obama’s first executive orders. The Government’s attitude to the change that has meant transfer clearance document issue to Mr Aamer in that the individual can go only to Saudi Arabia ? November of 2009 was explicit: “On January 22, 2009, the President of the United States Jane Ellison: It is the clear and oft stated policy of the ordered a new review of the status of each detainee at Guantanamo. British Government that Shaker Aamer should be released As a result of that review, you”— and returned to the UK. There has never been any that is, Shaker Aamer— equivocation, but I am sure the Minister will expand on “have been approved for transfer out of Guantanamo. The United that more fully. States Government needs to make appropriate arrangements for your transfer and this will require negotiation with countries where you could be possibly transferred. We cannot at this time Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I give you a specific time for your transfer. The United States congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. On Government intends to transfer you as soon as appropriate the question of “Why Saudi Arabia?”, will she comment arrangements can be made.” on the increasing speculation that Mr Aamer is cleared The meaning of the document is clear: he was allowed for only that country precisely because it would prevent to go to “countries”—plural, which is important—and him from speaking out against his abuse—abuse in it should happen as “soon as appropriate arrangements” which it looks very likely that the UK authorities might could be made. The US now apparently says he has only have been complicit? ever been cleared for transfer to Saudi Arabia. That is not Mr Aamer’s wish, not least because it would mean Jane Ellison: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention; abandoning his family in London. Three years on, of I know she is going to make her own contribution course, he has not been transferred anywhere: Mr Aamer later. I have come around to the view that that is one of remains in Guantanamo Bay. Rupert Cornwell, in The the only credible explanations, and I will talk about it Observer, summed up the situation well when he said later. that “even George Orwell would have been pressed to conceive the After 11 years, it is clear that the US does not have plight” sufficient evidence against Shaker Aamer to bring of Shaker Aamer and other detainees in his situation, charges, because if it did, it surely would have done so “cleared for release, but denied freedom”. by now, as it has for many other detainees. We are left, therefore, with the fundamental questions: Why is Shaker Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I Aamer still being held, and what are the conditions congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate, under which he may return to the UK? I put those which is on a subject on which she has campaigned questions directly to Brigadier General Mark Martins, hard. I apologise that I need to step out for a meeting, chief prosecutor of the US office of military commissions but I will return for the rest of the debate. Does she in Guantanamo, when he came to the House of Commons agree that this detention without trial is a stain on a last September, and to Leon Panetta, the outgoing US democracy? To hold an individual for that period without Secretary of Defence, when he visited the House in bringing charges is not acceptable and is akin to the January. The official reason they both gave for Mr Aamer’s treatment in Soviet gulags, which the Americans criticised continued detention was that he was being held under throughout the cold war. “the law of war…intended to prevent his return to the battlefield for the duration of hostilities in which he was previously engaged.” Jane Ellison: I could not agree more; it is exactly that. That concerns me for many reasons. First, there is no It is one of the distinguishing lines that we should draw credible evidence that Mr Aamer was ever engaged in between our mature democracies and those we have “hostilities”. Secondly, the duration period described is criticised over many years. For many decades, the west incredibly vague. When he responds, will the Minister criticised the gulags of the Soviet era, yet we seem to say whether the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has have replicated them. an understanding of what that might mean? Does it mean for, for example, the duration of the US deployment Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I congratulate the to Afghanistan? Will it extend beyond the US troop hon. Lady on securing the debate; she makes a compelling draw-down from Afghanistan? That is important, because case. Can she shed any light on the change from what it might lead to an eventual release date. we thought was clearance to be freed to clearance to go only to Saudi Arabia? I have seen it reported in the In our country, even those convicted of very serious press. Does she know how that change in, presumably, crimes know what sentence they must serve before they the US position occurred? can be released, yet at this point Shaker Aamer has no such light at the end of the tunnel, even though other Jane Ellison: In short, no. That is one of the things I such difficult cases have been resolved. For example, the hope to tease out in the debate. The US did not specify case of another British resident, Binyam Mohamed, any countries at the time, but clearly said “countries who was often mentioned in the same breath as Mr Aamer, where appropriate arrangements can be made.” I shall was also considered difficult and the US was initially go on to make the case that the UK is the most reluctant to release him, but military charges against appropriate country with which those arrangements him were dropped and he was released to the UK in could be made. February 2009. 305WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 306WH

Although I have been encouraged on many occasions damaging, and the sense that justice is being perpetually by Ministers’ repeated public declarations of official denied and delayed? Ultimately, that gives succour to Government policy to return Mr Aamer to the UK, and the enemies of Britain and the US. by the frequency with which his case has been raised, Mr Aamer remains in Guantanamo. It is time, therefore, Jane Ellison: I could not agree more with the hon. to explore other means of securing his release. That Gentleman. It is the ultimate stain on democracy. A might, I suspect, involve increasing the pressure on the man should know why he is being deprived of his US Government, and pulling diplomatic levers that liberty and what he must do to win it back. That is how have not yet been considered. Diplomatically, how might I come at it; that is one of the fundamental principles the Government respond if another foreign Government on which mature democracies base their thinking. were holding a British resident without charge? I know Will the Minister comment on whether some of the that Ministers have called for Mr Aamer’s release, but waiver steps have been satisfied, and what further steps perhaps the Foreign and Commonwealth Office should we could take in Britain to satisfy the US authorities? go further and consider making a public declaration, One of the US’s concerns is the possible recidivism of condemning his continued detention. released detainees, or, in the case of the many who did The US is one of Britain’s oldest and firmest friends. not commit an act of terrorism in the first place, whether We are close allies and significant trading partners. their treatment in Guantanamo has inspired them to Even if Ministers have to ruffle some diplomatic feathers violence. Releases depend largely on whether the receiving to see Mr Aamer released, our relationship with the US country is trustworthy and able to demonstrate that it would endure. Indeed, as I have said, releasing Mr Aamer can significantly mitigate any risks of recidivism, and I to the UK would surely help President Obama to take strongly suggest that the UK is eminently trustworthy another step towards fulfilling his now five-year-old in that regard. After all, the US trusts us in a range pledge to close Guantanamo Bay. of sensitive areas, for example shared intelligence and There are a number of theories about why Mr Aamer co-operation on joint military operations. Additionally, remains detained. In The Mail on Sunday last week, the NDAA requires the publication of a detailed report David Rose suggested that Mr Aamer might have been on incidences of recidivism and the countries in which present during the torture of another detainee who, I they take place. understand, later gave false information that was used The UK has an exemplary record on reintegrating to justify the invasion of Iraq. Clive Stafford Smith and released detainees. To my knowledge, among all the others believe that the UK security services could be Guantanamo detainees released to Britain, the sum briefing against Mr Aamer through intelligence-sharing total of recidivistic activity is a single speeding ticket. channels to keep him detained, perhaps to protect their Indeed, I understand that the UK has the best record of reputation against accusations of complicity in torture. any country to which a significant number of prisoners Has the Foreign and Commonwealth Office sought have been returned. The UK itself lives with a significant assurances that UK security services are not responsible ongoing threat level from international terrorism, and for, or contributing to, Mr Aamer’s ongoing detention? the fact that the UK Government are pressing for I realise that the content of any such discussions cannot Mr Aamer’s return to this country is surely the clearest be shared, but have they even taken place? possible demonstration that they do not regard him as a Another route, which was discussed in detail with the risk, especially given that he is not a British citizen. Foreign Secretary and Mr Aamer’s lawyers when we met in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office last year, Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I is through the US’s National Defence Authorisation congratulate the hon. Lady—on behalf, also, of my Act for Fiscal Year 2013. The NDAA regulates defence constituents—on raising the case today and on the spending, including on Guantanamo Bay, and also detail with which she is going into the case. I want to regulates how and when detainees can be transferred or highlight recent comments made by my constituents, released. Before 2012, granting certifications for transfers which state that there is clearly no reason why Mr Aamer was made all but impossible because of the demanding cannot be handed over to the UK authorities for them obligations placed on the Secretary of State for Defence to carry out the investigation. The UK authorities are and others—the bar was set very high. However, since trusted by most people in this country, and my constituents January 2012, the NDAA has included a new waiver feel that that would be the right step, and the very least mechanism, which allows the Secretary of State for that could be done to move the case forward. Defence to release prisoners if any risk associated with their release has been “substantially mitigated”—that is Jane Ellison: The hon. Gentleman is right, and it is a the key phrase used. In October 2012, the Foreign question not only of trust but of track record, as I have Secretary confirmed that the NDAA 2012 and its new laid out. It is not something that has to be taken on waiver mechanism might make Mr Aamer’s release trust; it is something that the British authorities have more likely, and he agreed to pursue the matter of demonstrated, time and again, they are capable of doing. securing a waiver with any new US Administration. Is Perhaps there are other simpler steps that our the Minister able to comment on whether any progress Government could take to mitigate the risk in the eyes towards identifying and addressing the obstacles has of the US authorities. As I have said, if Mr Aamer is been made? apparently being held under “the law of war” to “prevent his return to the battlefield”, could the UK Government John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): not seek assurances that he would not travel back to I add my congratulations to the hon. Lady on securing Afghanistan, or to any other prescribed country that the debate. She is asking all the right questions. Does the US considered a battlefield, to satisfy the concern? she agree that it is the lack of transparency that is so Could travel restrictions be placed on him? Indeed, I 307WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 308WH

[Jane Ellison] always emerge that are in some way murky, but that an important part of the process is normalising relationships understand from his US lawyer that Mr Aamer has back to what they were? This case serves only to show agreed voluntarily to accept any such travel restrictions, how little we have advanced in the past 11 years. and even to report regularly to the police. Here we have it: in simple terms, the President of the Yasmin Qureshi: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend United States says that he wants to close Guantanamo that we should try to normalise and humanise all such Bay, and a trusted ally wants to bring that ambition one situations, and to resolve the conflict. At the end of the man closer to fruition. It must be possible for one of the day, America is one of the greatest democracies in the world’s leading nations to explain to a trusted ally what world, under the rule of law, for which we admire it. is standing in the way of making that happen. The situation has been a big stain on its reputation This might surprise some people, but I want to put on internationally, and dealing with all this—resolving the the record my thanks to the security services, which issue of Guantanamo Bay and, of course, the case of probably keep us safe every day in ways we will never Shaker Aamer—would help its reputation in the world. know. However, if someone in the intelligence community That would give it back its credibility and respect, is blocking Shaker Aamer’s release, and if mistakes have which it is losing as it continues the Guantanamo Bay been made in the past, they will come out in the end detentions, including of Shaker Aamer. because that is the nature of our free societies. But how As I have said, there have been cases in the European much worse would it be if, when they did, they showed Court of people who have been in custody for a long that a man was allowed slowly to die, to shield the time, but no charge has been made in the case we are institutions of our democracies from embarrassment and discussing. As a former prosecutor, I know that international exposure? Our institutions are more robust than that. criminal laws are so wide that if people have committed We are here today discussing a political problem, but an offence—they do not actually have to have set off a behind the politics and the diplomacy there is a family bomb or to have shot someone, but all jurisdictions in tragedy. On behalf of Mr Aamer’s wife, Zineera and his the world have the concept of attempting to commit a children, Johina, Michael, Saif and Faris, I call upon crime, where people try but do not manage to complete everyone of good will to work together to secure the the offence—they can be charged. However, that is not return of Shaker Aamer to the UK. relevant to this case. There is also what is called aiding and abetting, which means that if people counsel, aid, procure, encourage or in any form or shape assist in the 9.50 am commission of an offence, they can be prosecuted. In virtually all jurisdictions, such people are treated as Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): It is a though they were the main participator—although sentences pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. tend to vary—so individuals can be caught even under I congratulate the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane those provisions. Ellison) on securing this debate. Shaker Aamer is not one of my constituents, but his case has been followed The fact that that has not happened in relation to by many people over the years, as has what is happening Mr Shaker Aamer and others in Guantanamo Bay, who in Guantanamo Bay. I will try not to repeat points have still not been charged with anything and still already made by the hon. Lady, but I will deal with languish in prison, is, legally, fundamentally wrong. some other issues. Eleven years later, it cannot be right that people are being detained in custody apparently for eternity—there When there is an incident such as 11 September, one seems to be no foreseeable release. can understand that, to protect its citizens, the natural reaction of the state is to scoop up everyone, put them I am grateful to our Government for making efforts in prisons or detention camps, and then search for the to get Shaker Aamer released. The Foreign Secretary evidence to prosecute them or do whatever needs to be has said that he is anxious to get him back, so that we done. In this case, it seems that for 11 years—that is a can repair some of the damage done to him. Britain has long time—someone has been kept in detention, with of course said that it will not charge him with any no charges brought against them and no trial carried offence. That again shows that we cannot just have out, which cannot be right. people in indefinite detention, perhaps for being in the The European convention on human rights says that wrong place at the wrong time. In this case, he was there in times of conflict, countries can derogate from certain legitimately, teaching—as he has said—and, because of articles, even from the right to a fair trial. Cases of the bombing, he tried to leave the country where he was people imprisoned for four to five years have gone to working, but was then detained. the European Court of Human Rights, which has said Fundamentally, this all boils down to the fact that that such treatment is not unlawful because of the either someone is prosecuted or they are not. The individual circumstances, but all those cases involved American Government say that Shaker Aamer is an people who had actually been charged with an offence unlawful combatant and does not therefore come within and were awaiting trial, although delays had occurred the parameters of the ordinary criminal law. However, for whatever reasons. In this case, the person has not international conventions state that somebody cannot even been charged, which is the really important point. just be held for ever; they must be prosecuted or released. In relation to the frequently used term “unlawful Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I am extremely combatant”, a soldier serving a country in an armed grateful to my hon. Friend for the tone in which she is conflict who is arrested by another country would be a continuing this debate. She is making some powerful “lawful combatant”, meaning that they might be treated points. Does she not go to the heart of the question as a prisoner of war, and only if they were not part of when she says that we understand that situations will the armed services of a particular state but were involved 309WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 310WH in some kind of illicit fighting or wrongdoing would Shaker Aamer is the last British resident being held in they be an unlawful combatant. Even so, they are Guantanamo Bay. He is a legal permanent resident of entitled to rights, including to a proper trial by an the UK and has a wife and four children living in independent tribunal. London, all of whom are British citizens. He has never Many international organisations have found that the met his youngest son who was born on 14 February trial system in American military courts has no transparency 2002—the day that he was transferred to Guantanamo. and contravenes all principles of natural justice and During his 11 years of detention, Shaker has been fairness of trial. I would therefore say that even a trial in tortured by US agents by having his head repeatedly the American military courts would be wrong, but even banged against a wall, and has witnessed the torture of that has not happened. No legal process is being carried another UK resident. He has spent more than 1,000 nights on. I know that that has been emphasised, but why this in a windowless isolation cell, and, when first detained, is happening is beyond understanding. he was starved, kept awake for nine days in a row and chained into positions that made the slightest movement It has been suggested, certainly by his lawyer, that unbearable. Under those conditions, Shaker said he was one reason Shaker Aamer has not been released is that delirious and confessed to whatever the Americans he has stood up for his rights in prison. He certainly did wanted just to make the torture stop. so when he was arrested. There is also the fact that he is Shaker has recently been subjected to a number of now on hunger strike. He has not seen his children or violent forced cell extractions, or FCEs, which have wife; in fact, one of his sons was born soon after he was resulted in bruising and other injuries. Specifically, Shaker detained and he has not even seen him. has been FCE-d while trying to pray and also in a I therefore ask the Minister what discussions there manner that was excruciatingly painful as a result of have been with the Americans about their having breached a long-term back injury that he sustained during his international laws, which is clearly happening in this treatment at Bagram air force base in Afghanistan. case. I could stand here and give chapter and verse on Shaker has been subjected to sleep deprivation as a all the cases, but I do not want to bore everybody stiff result of excessive noise made by the guards, but, as of with the legal niceties. As someone who specialises in the end of March, his official complaints have been human rights law and is a former prosecutor, I can ignored. In 2005, he was placed in isolation for 360 days honestly say of this case and the law in this area that for his role in organising a hunger strike after military what is happening to Shaker Aamer is completely illegal, police beat up a prisoner while he was praying. The fundamentally flawed and against all principles of justice. prison rules permit isolation for only 30 days. Shaker Before I sit down, I want to pay tribute to my right has seen other prisoners treated in gratuitously violent hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), ways, including being hospitalised and/or rendered who has campaigned vigorously about the case of Shaker unconscious as a result of FCEs. He also reports that a Aamer in particular—as well, of course, as the issue of fellow prisoner has recently attempted suicide. Guantanamo Bay generally—for several years. He raised Shaker’s treatment and the existence of Guantanamo it with the previous Lord Chancellor and other people, Bay is a clear reminder that some of the worst consequences and has campaigned tirelessly on behalf of Shaker of the war on terror remain with us today. It is worth Aamer and his family. Unfortunately, as he is shadow repeating, because it remains so shocking, that Shaker Lord Chancellor, he is not able to participate in this has never been charged with any offence. The ongoing debate today, although he is present in the Chamber, torture that is the hopelessness of indefinite detention and has been here from the start of the debate. I want to has resulted in Shaker embarking on a desperate hunger thank him and pay tribute to him for his hard work over strike that has lasted more than 70 days to date. Experts a number of years. I also want to pay tribute to the hon. say that the possibility of death becomes an imminent Member for Battersea for securing this debate. risk after 40 days. The Minister is an honourable and good man, and The impact of 11 years of detention and mistreatment the Foreign Secretary is of the same calibre as well. I and now this hunger strike has understandably taken its urge them to carry on with the negotiations so that we toll on Shaker’s health. Reprieve’s Clive Stafford Smith can please have the return of Shaker Aamer, as his reported last year, after meeting Shaker, that his health detention is a blot on the reputation of America for is increasingly fragile; he has extreme kidney pain and upholding freedom and rights. serious asthma problems. There is a real chance that, unless he is released as a matter of urgency, Shaker will die in Guantanamo. That fact makes this debate more 10 am urgent than could possibly be imagined. Very rarely when we say that issues are a matter of life or death do Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): It is a we mean it quite so literally or quite so imminently as is pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. the case this morning. I pay tribute to my colleague, the hon. Member for As hon. Members have heard, Shaker was officially Battersea (Jane Ellison), who has secured this debate cleared for transfer out of Guantanamo in June 2007 today, for doing her utmost to represent Shaker and to when a security assessment by the US Government press for his release. Many of my constituents in Brighton, acknowledged that it had no concrete evidence against Pavilion have been active in the campaign to bring him. He is also in possession of a US official document Shaker home, and I want to pay tribute to them and to that states: everybody who has kept the issue at the top of the “On January 22 2009, the President of the United States agenda by standing opposite the House of Commons, ordered a new review of the status of each detainee in Guantanamo. come rain or shine, reminding people that this is a stain As a result of that review you have been cleared for transfer out of on all of our reputations and that, until it is sorted out, Guantanamo…The US Government intends to transfer you as we are not worthy of being called a democracy. soon as possible…” 311WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 312WH

[Caroline Lucas] when so many questions about the UK’s role remain unanswered, and when, despite welcome public statements Shaker remains in detention despite that clearance, from our Government about their commitment to securing which is a complicated process involving multiple federal his release, Shaker is still not free. agencies, the fact that officials in the US Governments I hope the Minister can answer some of these questions of both President Bush and President Obama have been today, including whether or not UK intelligence agencies aware for several years that there was never a case for have been passing false information to the US regarding him to answer, widespread international condemnation Shaker, the result of which is his continued detention. and a pledge by President Obama at the start of his Will the Government confirm whether such information term of office to close down Guantanamo. That is why that has been passed was marked “not for executive we underline the question, “Why is Shaker still there?” action”, by which I mean that it should not have been That is the question to which I hope the Minister will used for actions such as holding someone in prison, supply some answers in his response. particularly in illegal indefinite detention such as at Neither of the two clearances of 2007 or 2009 limited Guantanamo Bay? Have steps been taken to ensure that its application to Saudi Arabia. Indeed, there has been any information that was previously provided to the US no clearance that has been geographically limited in should not be used against Shaker on pain of sanctions? that way in the past. However, according to Shaker’s What response has been given to each of the Government’s lawyers, the US has told the Foreign Secretary that requests for Shaker’s return? Has the Secretary of State Shaker’s clearance is limited to release to Saudi Arabia. received letters that Shaker has sent to him directly, as As the hon. Member for Battersea said, that makes no he is concerned that they may not have cleared Guantanamo rational sense. Britain has the best record of all countries censorship? Have the Government raised with the US in taking prisoners from Guantanamo Bay. Of the authorities any possible breach of international law by 14 people released to Britain, nine nationals and five the Americans, and, critically, will the Minister assure residents, none has any involvement in extremism. By us today that he can absolutely guarantee that we really contrast, in Saudi Arabia, which has a vaunted rehabilitation can hold our heads high and say that the UK has not programme, a larger number have committed subsequent been complicit in the abuses that Shaker has suffered? acts. That is what leads us to the uncomfortable conclusion 10.9 am that the only possible reason for sending Shaker to John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I will Saudi Arabia is to stop him from speaking out about his just make three simple statements. abuse—abuse in which the UK authorities have been complicit. As was reported at the weekend in The Observer First, I thank the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane newspaper, Shaker is allegedly able to describe in detail Ellison) and others who have assisted in securing this how a UK intelligence agent was present while he was debate, but more importantly I thank Joy Hurcombe beaten. He also claims that a British operative was and the campaigners on this issue. I thank them for present while a US interrogator repeatedly smashed his being outside Parliament year after year, in all weathers, head against a wall shortly before he was sent to and to be frank it has been a privilege for us to be able Guantanamo. According to Shaker’s US lawyer, Britain’s to stand alongside them each time; I and a number of intelligence agencies have also been defaming Shaker to hon. Members who are here today, including my hon. the US, passing on false information and accusing him Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), of extremism, which is also holding up his release. If he have stood with them. I just want to place that on the is right, Shaker is being deprived of his liberty on the record—Joy and the other campaigners have been the basis of lies that he is unable to challenge, which is why conscience of this country throughout this campaign in he has begun defamation action against MI5 and MI6. support of Shaker Aamer’s family. Ironically, such action could be pushed into a secret My second point has just been touched upon, but I court under the terms of the Justice and Security Bill, just want to be very clear about why this situation has leaving him once again unable to confront his accusers happened. The reality is that, as the hon. Member for or to challenge the evidence used by the Government Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has just said, Shaker against him. is a key witness in exposing the torture and rendition that were undertaken; it was not only undertaken by the The Metropolitan police has now opened three new US but this country’s intelligence services were complicit investigations into UK intelligence collusion with torture with it. I think that this detention is an attempt to and rendition, including Shaker Aamer’s case, and that ensure that that witness never appears in a court, because is in addition to MI6’s role in the kidnapping of Libyan Shaker would be able to expose all of that, and he residents and their families in 2004 for which the would do this country a service, whereby we might Government have already paid out more than £2 million make some attempt to regain control of this country’s in compensation. Earlier this month, Scotland Yard intelligence services, which I believe have been operating detectives interviewed Shaker Aamer in Guantanamo, out of control for a considerable number of years. which is perhaps why the Government are so keen to force through their secret court hearings in national Thirdly, what are the efforts that have taken place? security cases through the Justice and Security Bill. My own view is that the efforts have been slight. I do not doubt that Ministers have raised this matter time The US has repeatedly turned its back on international and again with the US Government. I must say, as an law, giving a green light to detention without trial and aside, that I am deeply disappointed with Obama. I am to the gross violations of human rights at Guantanamo deeply disappointed that he has not closed down and at prison facilities around the world. However, it is Guantanamo; I am deeply disappointed that he seems not enough to sit back and blame the US authorities to have put off closing it even further; and in his second 313WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 314WH term there is nothing for him to lose. He could actually In the recently produced “Human Rights and close down Guantanamo and release Shaker immediately Democracy: The 2012 Foreign & Commonwealth Office without any political cost at the end of the day. Report”, there is—commendably—a section on Guantanamo Although I do not doubt the sincerity of Ministers, I Bay, in which the Government say: am not sure about the scale of the efforts that have been “The Government maintains that the indefinite detention without made and their effectiveness. I also have to say that even trial of persons in Guantanamo Bay is unacceptable and that the if Ministers have been sincere and even if efforts have detention facility at Guantanamo Bay should be closed.” been made, the reality is that our own intelligence The report goes on to say that the issue has been raised services have been undermining those efforts and with representations throughout this period, and that issue “the then US Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta” should be part of the investigation that we now need to and that the Government will work with the USA to undertake. Reference has been made to the supply of secure the release. I hope that, when he responds to the information by intelligence services to the US that debate, the Minister can tell us what possible justification seems to have undermined the case that our own Ministers the US Government continue to offer for maintaining have made. Guantanamo Bay despite the many protestations of My view is that the Foreign Secretary should be President Obama before his election five years ago that summoning the American ambassador now, to say that the first thing he would do would be to close it down. this Government have had enough. We have had the There has been no problem whatever, as hon. Members conversations, year after year, and they have had no have pointed out, with any of the British nationals who effect whatever. If that causes an international incident, have been released from Guantanamo Bay, who, in fact, I do not care any more. We are talking about someone have made a commendable contribution to arguments whose life might be lost in the coming months. That is for justice and for closing it down. more significant than upsetting one of our supposed The treatment of Shaker Aamer is appalling by any allies. standards. The stories he will be able to tell will frighten Secondly, I ask the Minister to go back to the Prime an awful lot of people, and they will show just how Minister and say that we now need—at least in the next precious an independent legal system is and just how week, if not in the next 24 hours—a telephone call from precious it is to be able to represent yourself and your our Prime Minister to the US President to say that this case in court. He is stuck there, experiencing great matter is a key issue of concern for our Parliament and difficulty and with no right of access to US justice. our Government, and that we insist upon the release of Indeed, if he was able to get into court at the present Shaker Aamer. time I do not think that any British or European court would accept the case, because somebody who has been Let us leave the last words to Shaker himself. Let me in detention for so long, who has been so badly treated The Observer just quote from his statement in : and who has spent such a long period in solitary “I hope that I do not die in this awful place. I want to hug my confinement could not possibly give any credible evidence. children and watch them as they grow. But if it is God’s will that I As a result, he would have to be released immediately. should die here, I want to die with dignity. I hope, if the worst comes to the worst, that my children will understand that I cared I conclude by saying that our function as a Parliament for the rights of those suffering around me almost as much as I in a democracy is to hold the Government to account, care for them.” and it is the function of the Government to try to That was his statement. Our job is to ensure that he ensure that all British nationals and residents are able does not die in custody, and the responsibility of our to enjoy freedom, democracy and access to justice. I Government is to confront our own intelligence services hope that when the Minister replies to the debate, he and ensure that he does not die in custody. can tell us exactly what excuses the USA continues to offer for this travesty of justice that is still going on and That is a basic responsibility that we have, and we this appalling detention that is continuing. cannot put it off any further. We cannot resort again to using mellowed words with the US Government. We need to be more direct and more forceful in that relationship. 10.16 am Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Thank you, 10.13 am Mr Robertson, for calling me to speak. As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): First, I apologise I, too, join colleagues in congratulating the hon. for missing the first part of the contribution of the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) on securing this Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison). I commend her debate on behalf of Shaker Aamer and his family. His for securing this debate and I also commend the case is a cause of great concern to MPs of all parties, as campaigners who have done such an incredible job for demonstrated by the turnout in Westminster Hall today so long. and, of course, by the number of signatures—more What we have in Guantanamo Bay is a legal black than 117,000—on the e-petition site. I know that the hole, where no law applies, no justice applies, and those hon. Lady has already done a great deal to push for who remain there must wonder if they have any future Mr Aamer’s return to his family, who live in her whatever. That goes on with the complicity of the constituency. As others have done, I also want to mention United States and—because of our inability to gain the role played by my right hon. Friend the Member for the release of everyone else from Guantanamo Bay— Tooting (Sadiq Khan). I know that it is very frustrating the complicity of many other Governments around the for him not to be able to speak in the debate today, world. given his previous work—during his time not only in 315WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 316WH

[Kerry McCarthy] That Guantanamo detainees are held indefinitely, without the right to a fair trial, is itself a serious affront the House, but as a human rights lawyer—on this and to international human rights standards. Indeed, the related issues. However, he is obviously with us in spirit, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights if in silence. has condemned Guantanamo Bay, asserting: First, although I am sure that it does not need “The continuing indefinite incarceration of many of the detainees restating, I want to place on the record that Labour is amounts to arbitrary detention and is in clear breach of international law”. completely opposed to Guantanamo Bay. We removed all British citizens and all but one British resident from She also referred to, Guantanamo Bay through our diplomatic efforts when “the systematic abuse of individuals’ human rights”. we were in government. Indeed, we were the first country It is not only prisoners’ detention that is of such concern to ensure that all its citizens were removed from to human rights campaigners, but the reports of their Guantanamo Bay. We are now left in a position whereby treatment, which Mr Aamer’s lawyer has described as Mr Aamer is the sole remaining British resident there, “gratuitous torture”. We have heard accounts of that. and every effort should be made to end his detention without trial. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does my hon. Friend As we have heard, although Mr Aamer is a Saudi share the conclusion that many of us have reached: that citizen he is a British resident, married to a British this man continues to be detained, not because of any national and the father of four British citizens, the evidence against him, but because of the evidence that youngest of whom he has never had the chance to meet, he can offer against the torture system that he has as he was actually airlifted to Guantanamo Bay on the experienced, including the complicity of British intelligence day that his youngest son was born. services? Does she also appreciate that there is suspicion that the American authorities say they are getting one I understand that the Minister is responding to this message from the political wing of the British Government, debate as his portfolio includes counter-terrorism. Although but getting very different, and damnable, messages from national security is, of course, a paramount concern for the intelligence wing of the British Government? both the US and UK Governments, the continued existence of Guantanamo Bay is also a fundamental Kerry McCarthy: All hon. Members in this Chamber, human rights issue, which, many have argued—indeed, with the exception perhaps of the Minister, can only it has been said by Members in Westminster Hall today—is speculate about the reasons why Mr Aamer has not more likely to have jeopardised than safeguarded American been released. I hope that the Minister will tell us all security. that he can about the discussions that have taken place After Mr Aamer’s arrest in November 2001 in about the reasons given for his continued detention. Afghanistan, he was transferred to Guantanamo Bay I do not think that the suggestion that Mr Aamer on 14 February 2002; as I said, that was the day that his would be likely to be involved in terrorism activities, or youngest son was born. Mr Aamer’s legal representatives would in any way be a danger to the public if he at Reprieve claim that his treatment at Bagram airfield, returned to Britain, holds water. As has been said, the allegedly including sleep deprivation and physical abuse, other people who have returned to this country have not led him to make a false confession, which has since been been involved in such activity. As far as I know, that has used to justify his detention without trial for more than not been alleged. 11 years. Mr Aamer denies all accusations of involvement with al-Qaeda, but has not had the opportunity to Jane Ellison: As I said in my speech—I wonder answer any of these charges in a trial. whether the hon. Lady agrees—whatever might be revealed, it will always come out in the end, because in free Yasmin Qureshi: Does my hon. Friend also accept societies it does. Our institutions are robust enough. that, apart from sleep deprivation and everything else, Many hon. Members voted to go to war on what turned Mr Aamer’s head was banged against the wall quite a out to be a false precept under the last Government. It few times when all these things were happening? turned out that there were no weapons of mass destruction, yet our democracy has survived. Our institutions might be bloodied, but they are unbowed. Does the hon. Lady Kerry McCarthy: These suggestions have been put agree that, whatever might come out, we will survive it forward by Mr Aamer and his lawyers. Obviously, there and be better as a result? would be grave concerns if that were the case. We also know that defamation cases are going on in terms of Kerry McCarthy: I agree. The bottom line is that we other suggestions that have been made against him. are fundamentally opposed to any collusion or complicity Mr Aamer not been charged; that has come out in torture or mistreatment. It is wrong if British or during the debate. Perhaps we could understand it if he American forces were involved in any such activities. were being held without charge just while investigations Mistreating somebody who might expose such activities were proceeding, and there were reasons that could not in a world where we are upholding human rights law be revealed to anyone for why he was being held without must be wrong. If such activities did occur, they need to trial, but he has been cleared for release. That is what be flushed out into the open. people find baffling. It is estimated that 86 of the Obviously, there is always that underlying security remaining prisoners have been cleared for release. Mr Aamer issue. The United States has the right to defend its was first cleared under the Bush presidency in 2007 and citizens, and we have the right to defend ours, against subsequently by President Obama’s Administration in the threat of terrorism. That sometimes means that 2009. things cannot always be as transparent—as open—as 317WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 318WH we would like them to be. However, if there is any recent months discussed the USA’s obligations under suggestion that we are not upholding the international the international covenant on civil and political rights, laws that we claim to hold dear, that is a serious matter or encouraged co-operation with UN special rapporteurs? and we cannot hide behind that. Similarly, has the Minister raised the right to a fair trial As has been said, this debate is so urgent because or any objections to the military commission system? Mr Aamer has now been on hunger strike for more than It has been suggested that the latest hunger strike 70 days and experts warn that he is now beyond the followed the reassignment of Dan Fried, President Obama’s point of special envoy, tasked with transferring prisoners and “irreversible cognitive impairment and psychological damage”. fulfilling the pledge to close Guantanamo Bay. Have the Government discussed the implications of that with The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline the Obama Administration, and does the Minister still Lucas) mentioned reports that he is suffering with arthritis, think there is a political will, within the White House at asthma, prostate and kidney problems and severe backache. least, to eventually close the centre? It is said that he can no longer read and is dizzy, but is reluctant to call the guards when he falls because of Congress and the National Defence Authorisation their previous treatment of him. Worryingly, it is claimed Act have been identified as the greater obstacles. Although he is being denied water or has to endure a “forcible cell the NDAA essentially precluded any transfers from extraction” first—we have heard about that already—and Guantanamo Bay, when its provisions were renewed in there are other reports of hunger strikers being given 2012, I understand that a degree of flexibility was only dirty water. According to his lawyers, Mr Aamer’s introduced for the Secretary of Defence, which the hon. knee and back braces have been taken away, as has the Member for Battersea mentioned. Despite this, there blanket that he needed for his rheumatism. Papers were no releases last year. Can the Minister tell us more recently filed with US courts cited “deliberate indifference” about the implications of the Act, as renewed in 2012, to detainees’ medical needs. Even if there were valid for Mr Aamer and the other detainees, and whether the reasons for continuing to hold Mr Aamer in Guantanamo Secretary of Defence is able to exercise such discretion? Bay, I think that all hon. Members would agree that he Have the Government raised this matter with the White ought to be treated with respect and in accordance with House, the Department of Defence and representatives the normal processes that we would expect to apply to from Congress? anybody held in a prison—and not to be subject to this The question remains why, despite being cleared for kind of treatment. release some six years ago, Mr Aamer remains in Guantamo This is not Mr Aamer’s first hunger strike. He allegedly Bay. Can the Minister say whether, in either 2007 or initiated a strike in 2005, following which he was punished 2009, Mr Aamer’s release depended on any conditions with solitary confinement for 360 days. I understand being met? For example, was he cleared to return home that the US authorities deny the claims that Mr Aamer to his family in Battersea? We have heard that he may has been held in solitary confinement for three years. only have been cleared to return to Saudi Arabia. If that Again, we are not in a position to know whether that is the case, does the Minister share our concern that is so. somebody with indefinite leave to remain in this country, who has a family in the UK, is married to a British It is understood that 84 Guantanamo detainees are citizen, has four children who are British citizens, and on hunger strike and five are being treated in hospital. has not been convicted of a crime, should be sent to There were reports of clashes just over a week ago, Saudi Arabia, about whose human rights record we when the guards allegedly tried to end the hunger strike. have grave concerns, and which he left when he was only It is difficult to verify conflicting reports, but it has been 17 years old? said that 16 people are being force-fed, in breach of the 1975 World Medical Association declaration of Tokyo, The US authorities may dispute some of the reports the guidelines for physicians concerning torture and emanating from Guantanamo Bay, but it seems beyond other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment doubt that the latest hunger strike, which is seemingly in relation to detention and imprisonment. one of the most serious, is a sign of the increasing desperation of detainees and perhaps a fear that the It is on the record that the Government have repeatedly remaining 166, out of the 779 who have been held there called on the Obama Administration to return Mr Aamer over the years, have been completely forgotten. Can the to the UK and that must remain the pressing goal, but Minister assure us that the Foreign Office remains will the Minister say what representations have been determined to secure the release of the last remaining made regarding his treatment during his detention, and British resident and, more generally, to press for the the conduct of the Guantanamo guards towards the closure of Guantanamo Bay? Does he share our concern, other 165 detainees? Has the Foreign and Commonwealth which many Members have expressed in their speeches Office sought information on how long and under what and interventions today, that its continued existence circumstances Mr Aamer has been held in solitary undermines the USA’s ability to promote human rights confinement? Given the grave concerns about Mr Aamer’s around the world and, given that the USA is such a health, what discussions have the UK and US had on close ally and friend of the UK, risks undermining our medical facilities at Guantanamo Bay; and will the credibility on international human rights as well? FCO seek assurances that Mr Aamer is receiving the medical care he needs? What efforts have been made to ensure that Mr Aamer is, at the very least, able to speak 10.30 am to his lawyers? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Given the clear statements of the United Nations and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): It is a pleasure High Commissioner for Human Rights that the USA is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I in breach of international law, have the Government in thank my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane 319WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 320WH

[Alistair Burt] as is practical. In support of that ministerial level engagement, I raised Mr Aamer’s case with Deputy Ellison) for raising this issue and for her work in supporting Secretary of State Bill Burns just a week ago last Shaker Aamer’s family, which she has done consistently Monday, at a face-to-face meeting in Washington. In since she was elected. She has done all she can to raise addition, senior officials continue to discuss Mr Aamer’s his case, including through conversations with me at the case with their US counterparts. Foreign Office. Despite the high level of public and parliamentary I also acknowledge the work of the right hon. Member interest in Mr Aamer’s case, it remains necessary for the for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), whom parliamentary convention Government to keep the details of diplomatic discussions prevents from speaking in the debate. He has been an with the United States Administration confidential. advocate and a concerned Member of Parliament for Any breach of their expectation of confidentiality would other parts of the family. We fully appreciate his presence likely hinder UK efforts to secure Mr Aamer’s release and the reasons why he cannot speak. I also thank and return. Confidentiality aside, we welcome the continued colleagues who have made interventions and speeches engagement of Members of the House who share our during the debate. common vision to see Mr Aamer returned to his family I will do my best to deal with as many of the questions in the United Kingdom. We remain committed to offering that have been raised as possible. I would like to put assistance to those parliamentarians who wish to raise some remarks on the record first and then to deal with his case directly with figures in the United States. We some of the issues that have been raised in questions. I also welcome the degree of interest from the public and will not be able to deal with all the questions. Some the signing of the petition, which led directly to my hon. refer to confidential discussions we have with the United Friend the Member for Battersea raising this issue States, which we cannot go into. Some deal with intelligence today. matters, which no Government discuss in public. I do not have the answers to one or two of the questions Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I am sure with me, including some of those asked by the hon. the Minister is absolutely sincere in what he is trying to Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). I thought do. I appreciate what he says about confidentiality. A I might deal with her list of questions by writing to her lot of constituents regularly raise this matter with me, and putting a copy of the letter in the Library so that and they cannot understand why, given the special other Members can see it. However, let me deal as best relationship with the United States, it is not possible to as I can with some of the issues that have been raised. get a more positive response. Is there anything further For absolute clarity, let me say that the Government’s the Minister can say about the reasons he is being given consistent position is no different from that of our by US officials? predecessor. It is the long-standing policy of the Government that we should seek the release and return of those UK nationals and former legal residents who Alistair Burt: Let me deal with that when I respond to have been held at Guantanamo Bay and, in so doing, the remarks and questions from the hon. Member for assist the US Administration in their efforts to close the Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) on that subject. There detention facility. There is no change in Government is a limited amount I can say, because, ultimately, it is policy; our policy is to support efforts in the United the United States that is holding Mr Aamer, not us. States to close Guantanamo and to seek the return of There is only so much we know about the reasons, but I UK residents and nationals—that now comes down to will say a little more about that later. Mr Shaker Aamer. I reiterate that the Government continue to support As Members will be aware, Shaker Aamer was part of President Obama’s commitment to closing the detention an exceptional request in 2007 by the then Foreign facility at Guantanamo Bay.We understand the requirement Secretary for the release and return of all former legal for detainee transfers and releases to satisfy US legislation. UK residents held in Guantanamo Bay. Securing the Previous legislation passed by the United States Congress— release and return of Mr Aamer, the last remaining namely, the 2011 National Defence Authorisation Act—all former British legal resident, remains a high priority but precluded transfers out of Guantanamo Bay. That for the Government. It remains the Government’s legislation was renewed by the US Government for 2012 understanding that Mr Aamer has only ever been cleared in largely the same terms, but it allowed for the US for transfer, and not release. The US authorities have Secretary of Defence to exercise a waiver should stringent not charged him with any crime, and nor do they intend conditions be met. to prosecute him. It is the Government’s belief that it is Despite our best endeavours, Mr Aamer was not Mr Aamer’s wish to return to the United Kingdom to released in 2012. Indeed, no detainees were released be reunited with his wife and family. We therefore from Guantanamo Bay in 2012. The National Defence continue to make it clear to the US that seeing Mr Aamer Authorisation Act was renewed in January 2013. All released and returned to the United Kingdom is a Guantanamo Bay detainees cleared for transfer or priority for us. release now require a waiver under the Act before they Mr Aamer’s case has been repeatedly raised by the can be transferred or released from the detention facility, Foreign and Defence Secretaries with their US counterparts. regardless of their destination country. The Government That level of engagement has been undertaken on the continue to work with US counterparts to consider the understanding that the US Secretaries of Defence and implications of the NDAA 2013 for Mr Aamer’s release. State, in consultation with the director of national Notwithstanding that, any decision regarding Mr Aamer’s intelligence, have the authority to affect Mr Aamer’s release ultimately remains in the hands of the United release and return. It is the Government’s intention to States Government. I will have a little more to say about raise Mr Aamer’s case with new office holders as soon that in a moment. 321WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 322WH

Let me deal briefly with welfare issues and then Alistair Burt: I can certainly do that, and am happy return to some of the questions colleagues raised in the to write to my hon. Friend; but I want to make it clear debate. We continue to take concerns about Mr Aamer’s that we take the allegations extremely seriously. We have welfare very seriously. The US Department of Defence asked the US Department of Defence to respond to has confirmed to us that Mr Aamer is participating specific allegations about treatment and we will continue in the current hunger strike at Guantanamo Bay. to do so. As I say, we think independent access, through Notwithstanding that, the US authorities have assured the facilities that are available, is important; but I will us that he is in a stable condition, that he is not in happily respond to my hon. Friend in due course. solitary confinement and that he is being offered medical treatment. In addition, the FCO has asked the US Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Ind): I take the Minister’s point Department of Defence substantively to respond to about the issues to do with mistreatment or otherwise, specific allegations that have been made. We have no but does he agree that there is not really a precedent reason not to believe the welfare assurances we have for holding someone, ostensibly as a prisoner of war, been given by United States authorities. I should add for 11 years? The only precedent that I can think of that the International Committee of the Red Cross has is the gulags after the second world war; that is not access to Guantanamo detainees. something that we would care to accept as a common practice. Yasmin Qureshi: Has anybody from the Foreign Office actually visited Guantanamo Bay and seen for themselves Alistair Burt: Let me now deal with some of the the condition of Shaker Aamer? If they saw him, there questions that colleagues have raised in the debate, would be independent evidence to say that he was fine starting with why Mr Aamer is in Guantanamo Bay, and that he was being treated properly, and we would which is the central question. I will say what I said not worry so much. If it is being said he is being treated before: he is not being held by the United Kingdom, so well, has any effort been made to go to see him? If not, we do not have a reason why he is detained. In our view has permission been refused? the detention is wrong and he should not be there. I make that very clear. The United States must satisfy itself that it has reasons. Alistair Burt: The reason is that we cannot offer a It is genuinely very difficult to comment on why the non-British national, which is Mr Aamer’s status, consular United States might think that Mr Aamer is rightly in assistance. Consular access and responsibilities are afforded Guantanamo Bay. We have to discuss the detail with the to states only in respect of their nationals. Our consular US to seek to secure his release. That is sensitive, and we policy towards non-British nationals is clear; we cannot do not discuss intelligence matters. We have always held help non-nationals, no matter how long they have lived the view that indefinite detention without review or fair in the UK, and regardless of their connections to the trial is unacceptable. We welcome the President’s continuing UK. However, although we are not able to visit him in commitment to closing the detention facility and to Guantanamo Bay, we routinely inquire about Mr Aamer’s maintaining a lawful, sustainable and principled regime welfare, and we always follow up allegations of poor for the handling of detainees there. Beyond our making health, as a matter of priority. We are confident that the it clear that we do not consider the detention of Mr Aamer assurances that we receive from the US are accurate and to be right or correct, the United States plainly has a credible, and have no reason to believe otherwise. different point of view. The process of our arguing for Mr Aamer’s release is seeking to persuade the US; to a Yasmin Qureshi: I appreciate that because Mr Aamer certain extent the parliamentary and public pressure in is not a British national he cannot technically or legally the United Kingdom adds to that sense of persuasion speaking be given consular assistance, but bearing in that the detention is not right or appropriate. That mind the fact that the British Government are making remains the Government’s view. representations on his behalf for him to be released back here it would not be that difficult for someone Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Minister tell us exactly what independently to go and speak to him, and then come the US Secretary for Defence says about why Mr Aamer back and say, “He’s okay; the suggestion that he is being is in Guantanamo Bay at all? What reason do the US tortured or treated badly is all wrong.” That would shut offer for putting someone who was legally resident in people up if they are wrong in saying he has been this country in prison for so long, with no legal process? treated badly. That is all. It is just common sense. Alistair Burt: Forgive me; that is one of the questions that I cannot answer in direct terms, because that forms Alistair Burt: As far as I am aware, there is independent part of the confidential discussions that we need to have access to Guantanamo detainees through the ICRC. with the United States in relation to this matter. A That provides exactly the independent reference that breach of its confidentiality in relation to it would the hon. Lady would look for. Our consular policy is damage the efforts that we are continuing to undertake clear. in relation to Mr Aamer’s release. Although I fully understand the reason for asking the question, and the Jane Ellison: On the point about the ICRC, I suspect degree of frustration about my not being able to give a that the Minister will not be able to answer now, but will response, those are my reasons for not going into it. he, having inquired of the ICRC, write to me and other Plainly, there is an obvious difference of opinion. hon. Members to tell us when it last visited and whether there was a chance to meet Mr Aamer and make an Caroline Lucas: The debate is becoming increasingly assessment? If that was possible, could that be put on Kafkaesque; it is like a nightmare. Can the Minister at the record? least tell us whether he knows why the US will not 323WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 324WH

[Caroline Lucas] part of the US authorities from apparently clearing Mr Aamer for release, to clearing him only for release to release Mr Aamer? It is one thing not being able to tell Saudi Arabia? us; but can he tell us whether he knows why? Can he indicate his assessment of what the US tells him? Alistair Burt: As far as I am aware—I checked with officials during the debate—our understanding is that Alistair Burt: In all fairness, we are getting into the he has only ever been cleared for transfer. I am not same sort of area. I do not make light of this. Plainly, I aware that he has been cleared only for transfer to one have a supposition about why the United States might place. [Interruption.] He has been cleared for transfer want to retain Mr Aamer. It is inconsequential in terms to Saudi Arabia; but it is our understanding that he has of the United Kingdom’s position on his release from always been cleared for transfer to Saudi Arabia. That detention, and whether we think the detention is wrong. does not, of course, prevent the United Kingdom from We do. It is clear we have a difference of opinion with seeking to get him returned to the United Kingdom. We the United States in relation to this; but going into the believe Shaker Aamer should be returned here, to his detail of what we think and what they think is part of family and everything else. Our understanding is that the confidential discussion we need to have on his the United States has not changed its position and that behalf, in order to seek his release. Going into that it has always been the case—he is cleared for transfer to detail here is not something I can do, understandable Saudi Arabia. though it would be to Parliament, as it is an intelligence matter, which a previous Government would understand John McDonnell: It is bizarre that the very people well, and would deal with in exactly the same terms. who could find themselves in the dock as a result of this witness’s evidence are preventing the Minister from Yasmin Qureshi: I understand that the Minister cannot telling us why that witness cannot be released. That is tell us the details of the discussions that have been extraordinary. happening, but when he next has a chance to discuss The level of seriousness with which the American the matter, can he raise something with the US authorities? Government will treat this matter depends on the level Mr Aamer’s lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith, has said at which it is raised by this Government. I fully accept that he has access to classified material from MI6, that Ministers, including the Minister himself, have which he cannot share—a bit like the Minister— raised it consistently, but that means that the Prime even with his client. However, he is able to give some Minister, at some stage, has to come into play. After this information from the documents, and he can say that debate, will the Minister communicate to the Prime the British security services are actively misleading their Minister that the House now feels it is time for him to US counterparts to ensure that he is never allowed to intervene personally in the matter by using his relationship return to Britain; and that they have gone round bad- with Barack Obama? mouthing Mr Aamer and saying things that are simply false. Not only were they part of his abuse, but they Alistair Burt: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, falsified evidence against him. and, of course, the Prime Minister will be made aware of the substance of this debate and the strength of Alistair Burt: I understand the point fully, and, again, feeling, which I know he understands. I cannot make a the answer is partly the same that I would have given a commitment on the Prime Minister’s behalf to raise moment ago, in terms of allegations made against particular issues, but I make it very clear that I think the British security forces and the like. However, I will say debate should be read widely.Besides the United Kingdom, two things in response. I can say clearly that we are I hope the debate will influence opinion elsewhere. The using, and will continue to use, our best endeavours to matter has been raised with the US Secretary of State secure Shaker Aamer’s release. I am aware of the allegations and Defence Secretary, and the reason for raising it at that have been made, and want to make it clear that all that level is, of course, that we believe they are the chief parts of Government are pulling in the same direction, interlocutors who have responsibility under the Act for Mr Shaker Aamer’s release. and, ultimately, will need to respond to Congress. We Also, as to the Government’s response to allegations will continue to use our best efforts to get the result we of wrongdoing in the past by British security services, are seeking, but I fully take and understand the hon. and our attempts to open things up and to give Gentleman’s point, and I am quite sure that it will be compensation where things have been wrong, the Prime further considered. Minister has said explicitly that torture and rendition One or two questions have been asked on other are not part of British security activity, whether or not issues. My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea asked they have been in the past. We have opened that up and whether the FCO is considering the new provisions in offered compensation where things have been wrong. I the NDAA to identify obstacles and opportunities for think that the hon. Lady will appreciate that it is not in Shaker Aamer’s release. She asked what progress has our interest, having gone so far in relation to other been made. The NDAA 2012 allows for the US Defence cases, to seek to do something contrary now. I give an Secretary to exercise a waiver should stringent conditions assurance that all parts of the British Government be met. We have tried, as I have said, to use our best system are pulling in the same direction, for the return endeavour to ensure that that happens. We are continuing of Mr Shaker Aamer. to work with counterparts to try to understand the implications of the NDAA 2013 for Mr Aamer’s release, Stephen Timms: I am grateful for that assurance but so far that has not been successful. We understand about the activities of all parts of the UK Government. that no detainees were released last year. Ultimately, Can the Minister shed any light on the point that we that remains in their hands, but we are continuing to discussed earlier about the reason for the change on the press. 325WH Shaker Aamer24 APRIL 2013 Shaker Aamer 326WH

My hon. Friend and other hon. Members asked for this stage, but none the less, in relation to whatever details on any guarantees or securities that we could reason the United States may have, the United Kingdom give on our behalf in relation to Shaker Aamer’s return will continue to argue that his detention is wrong and to the United Kingdom and any onward activity. I that he should be returned. cannot give an answer to that, because, again, it clearly forms part of the confidential discussions we must have. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): The Minister I have to rely on previous intelligence assurances given is very generous in giving way. If it was the other way to the House about our not being able to comment in around—if the UK had detained a US resident—would detail on that. we be getting the same response, and would we accept it? Jane Ellison: This will be a brief intervention. Have the British Government reiterated the UK’s excellent Alistair Burt: That is a hypothetical question. As track record on previous returners from Guantanamo? far as I am aware, we do not have anyone detained in the Stating that would seem to me to be entirely legitimate UK who is not going through what we believe to be and not within the bounds of confidential intelligence the appropriate court processes, some of which are very discussions. difficult, as we have seen with Mr Abu Qatada. We can be challenged at any time. We do not have any comparable Alistair Burt: I can state that the subsequent activities facility. Would we seek to respond? Yes, of course we and conduct of those who have been released from would. We would respond to legitimate requests from Guantanamo Bay to the United Kingdom and elsewhere another Government in relation to one of their residents. is clearly one of the considerations that we would We would always put our own security first, and we expect the United States Administration to take into are very clear about that. This is a big political issue in account. My hon. Friend’s point is well made. the United States, as we know. This is not just about the President and the Administration; it is about Congress, A question was also asked about the business of this too. law of war and how long it is likely to last. Again, we have had no indication from the United States about I will conclude by saying something about that. There the length of time that that particular provision might is no MP in this room who does not understand or cover. It is a matter for them, but, again, we have made sympathise with the people of the United States and it clear, as a number of colleagues have said, that it does their profound sense of shock after 9/11, in which, of not address the fundamental issues of detention without course, a larger number of UK citizens lost their lives charge or trial that are at the heart and root of the than in any other terrorist incident. Certainly, none of matter. us opposes a state’s right to protect itself against terrorism. Parliament debates that regularly and agonises over The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion raised a how to legislate in a complex field to balance security number of serious issues in relation to letters from with the very rights and freedoms that are at the heart Shaker Aamer to the Foreign Secretary. I do not have of what our security is designed to protect. The hon. those details at the moment, but she has a list of Member for Brighton, Pavilion mentioned the Justice questions, and I will deal with them in the manner I and Security Bill, which profoundly concerns those suggested by putting a letter in the Library and writing dilemmas and difficulties. directly to her. Over the years, we have all come to do our best to The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John understand the complex interplay of motives of those McDonnell) raised issues about the intelligence services, who would cause us harm, and we have sought to to which I have responded. If not in his terms, I have defuse them with action directed against those actively been able to answer them fully. We take the allegations engaged in planning or carrying out acts of terrorism, very seriously. As I have said, the Government’s record while also doing all we can to de-radicalise those who of dealing with allegations against the intelligence services might be influenced by others or turned in the wrong in the past has been, I believe, good. Our record of direction by any action of the UK Government, however uncovering things that we believe to have been wrong in unfairly judged—if efforts to protect ourselves are the past, from Bloody Sunday to Hillsborough, is also deliberately misinterpreted so as to suggest that a section good. It is against the Government’s spirit to seek again of the community is being targeted by the state in a to be complicit in anything that we believe to be wrong. manner that denies their rights or discriminates against I hope I have given a clear enough assurance on our them, for example. Against such a background in the views on the detention of Mr Shaker Aamer and our United Kingdom, the United Kingdom Government clear determination to have him returned. simply believe that the continued detention of Shaker The hon. Member for Islington North raised similar Aamer is wrong without charge or trial, and we will issues, and he particularly asked why Mr Aamer was continue to do all in our power to seek to return him to detained. Again, I have given the best answer I can at the United Kingdom. 327WH 24 APRIL 2013 Food Waste 328WH

Food Waste They should put it back into a resealable pack. The lack of such knowledge is damaging the environment and, crucially, people’s pockets. The quantity thrown away 10.59 am amounts to 7.2 million tonnes of food and drink every Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): It is a great pleasure to year, which the campaign says is enough to fill Wembley speak under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I secured stadium nine times over. Of that amount, 4.4 million the debate to highlight the importance of packaging tonnes would have been safe to eat. In addition, the materials in reducing food waste. I acknowledge that food wasted produces 17 million tonnes of CO2, the the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), amount produced by one fifth of all cars in the UK. It is whom I am pleased to see in her place, introduced the a pretty substantial problem. Food Waste Bill last March. She began and has continued One of the most worrying statistics is that many a campaign to ensure that food that is safe to use but people believe that the disposal of packaging is a problem not saleable by supermarkets and manufacturers is donated bigger than or equal to food waste. A quick look at to charities. My remarks will consider a slightly different some statistics shows just how wrong that presumption side of the debate on food waste, focusing on how food is. The CO2 emissions from food thrown away are 166 waste can be reduced, and particularly the role that million tonnes, while the CO2 emissions from the packaging packaging can play in achieving that objective. amount to just 10.8 million tonnes. That is one fifteenth Many of my remarks will be based on the Fresher for of the amount, a massive difference. The consequences Longer campaign, launched a month or two ago by the of using packaging are not nearly as dangerous to the Packaging Federation, to whose chief executive, Dick environment as those of food waste. Searle, I pay tribute. That body worked in conjunction In 2008, the Advisory Committee on Packaging found with the Kent Waste Partnership under its manager, that, of the total energy used in the food chain, Paul Vanston, and alongside WRAP UK, the British approximately 50% is used in food production, 10% in Retail Consortium and the Food and Drink Federation. transport to the shops and retailing, 30% is used by The campaign was launched on 5 March to show how shoppers driving to the shops and storing and cooking packaging not only protects food from damage but can food, and just 10% in making the packaging. The case keep it fresher for longer in our homes, meaning that gets stronger. The Love Food Hate Waste campaign less food is wasted. The campaign has caught the public’s points out that the impact on the environment of throwing attention. On the day when it was launched, it trended away an apple is six times greater than that of the pack at No. 1 on Twitter, beating the pop star Justin Bieber to it comes in; for tomatoes, it is 30 times greater; for top spot. lettuce, it is 100 times greater. Why are the campaign and this debate so necessary? As well as making delivery of products effective, One key finding of research for the Love Food Hate packaging can help prolong the life of our foods. Waste campaign was that only 13% of the public realise Increasingly, food is produced at some distance from that packaging can play an important role in protecting where it is consumed, so packaging is critical to ensuring food in the home. The campaign attempts to deal with that it survives the journey from production to consumption. some public perceptions. Without packaging, fruit and vegetables would not be To start with the extent of the problem, food waste available out of season, and consumers would have to represents a significant cost to all consumers. Throwing grow their own food or shop for it daily. away food not used in time costs £6.7 billion a year, The Advisory Committee on Packaging draws attention which is £270 a year to the average household or £5 a to the fact that selling grapes in trays or bags has week, a significant sum at a time when many household reduced in-store waste of grapes by 20%. In-store wastage budgets are stretched. Many families would rather not of new potatoes decreased from 3% when sold loose to bear that burden, which is unnecessary in many cases. I less than 1% after specially designed bags were introduced. hope to show how packaging can help reduce that cost, An unwrapped cucumber loses moisture and becomes but to do so, we must change perceptions. dull and unsaleable within three days. Just 1.5 grams of The Fresher for Longer campaign found that 61% of wrapping will keep it fresh for 14 days, which shows consumers believe that keeping fruit and vegetables in how much difference the smallest amount of packaging their original packaging makes them sweat and go off can make. more quickly, when actually the opposite is true. In a The Co-operative Group provides retail experience of 2011 article published in Food Science and Technology, the benefits of packaging cucumbers. It switched from Dr Paul Butler points out that only about 19% of food wrapped to naked—their word, not mine—cucumbers waste is unavoidable, consisting of things such as meat in 2007, but says that and fish bones, peelings, eggshells and banana skins, “we have now reintroduced plastic wrapping to cut food waste meaning that 81% of food waste is avoidable. Why is and ensure cucumbers look fresh. We expect that the move will that proportion so high? Dr Butler concludes in his save 56 tonnes of food waste a year”. article that “the core problem is that consumers have largely lost touch with Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): As the hon. food; what it is, where it comes from and how it is produced. They Gentleman said, I introduced a Food Waste Bill a year perceive that food is cheap and plentiful and can be wasted ago, but he is discussing a new dimension of the issue. It without any thought as to the consequences”. is interesting to listen to him. He might be aware that There is concern that the average shopper does not phase 2 of the Courtauld commitment, which set targets know how to treat different foods. Should bananas be for reducing food and packaging waste, is coming to an put in the fridge? The answer, of course, is no. Should end. The target has been exceeded, although it was low cucumbers be taken out of polythene wrap? No. What in the first place. It seems to me from what he is saying should people do with cheese once they have opened it? that there is an argument for separating the targets for 329WH Food Waste24 APRIL 2013 Food Waste 330WH food waste and for packaging waste, and that it would for cheese to prevent it drying out; and, during the be wrong to try to bundle up the two in one target. Does production process, the air inside salad containers often he agree? being modified to enable the salad to remain fresher for longer in fridges by slowing down decomposition, giving Mark Pawsey: That is a very sensible comment. I will customers a longer time in which to eat it. argue later that packaging waste can be treated as a Consumers can be informed not only through websites valuable resource. I have great sympathy with the hon. but through the packaging itself, which can play a vital Lady’s remarks. role in advising and informing them how to handle their The environment and the consumer can benefit from food. The nature of packaging enables producers to packaging; extending the shelf life of our food is a communicate with consumers. Some of the ways in significant way in which to reduce food waste. Using which innovative food producers are taking advantage appropriate packaging can help in three ways: first, as I of that facility of packaging include: removing “display have already mentioned, through the protection of food until”dates, so that the “best before”and, most importantly, in transit. The average household in the UK buys more “use by” dates are easier to see; giving flexibility for than 4,000 items of food and other products every year; some products to be used after the date, for example, in the country as a whole, 25 million households buy hard cheeses having a “best before” date rather than a more than 100 billion items, and more than 75% of “use by” date; highlighting on the front of the pack those purchases are grocery products, mainly food and where to store food to keep it at its best, as many are drink but also household detergents, paper products, doing, with most food packs having detailed storage cosmetics, etc. To meet that demand, a typical supermarket advice; and moving away from guidance that tells consumers today carries considerably more than 50,000 product to “freeze on day of purchase” to “freeze before the use lines, compared with only 2,000 in the 1960s, so a much by date”, so that if food is purchased, kept in the fridge broader range of products needs to be distributed, and not eaten, it can be frozen before the date in order often from much further afield. Those products have to to be used later. All such initiatives help reduce food survive the journey from farm or factory to the consumer waste and show that the food production and packaging in an undamaged and unspoilt condition; if food arrives industries are being proactive. damaged, that only serves to increase the amount of The packaging industry has also subscribed to the food wasted. Primary packaging protects products, while process of packaging optimisation, to make certain that secondary packaging is the cardboard boxes and trays less material is used in packaging. There have been that are used to group the products together during substantial reductions in the amount of material used, distribution. for example in the production of a coke can or cardboard A second role of packaging is to prolong life, and the box. Packaging, therefore, has significantly less impact third is to inform consumers about the contents of the on the environment than many would have us believe. pack, which is fundamental to the Love Food Hate At the end of its life, packaging makes up less than 20% Waste campaign. The campaign website has hints and of household waste, amounting to less than 3% of tips about how consumers can store products effectively. materials going to landfill. It even includes a section offering poems and rhymes as I hope that through today’s debate I have been able to a different technique to remind consumers how to store provide an additional perspective to that of the hon. food; I shall quote one about bread: Member for Bristol East on the campaign to reduce “Don’t get in a spin food waste. I hope that I have been able to show how it really is no teaser packaging is a vital component of and not a hindrance to the campaign, and how it provides valuable economic, clip half your bag in a bread bin social and environmental assistance to our society. I and the other half in the freezer.” look forward to Minister’s response. That is a good way to get a message across: bread can be preserved by putting half the loaf in the freezer, so that 11.16 am it can be used later. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for In response to such ideas and demands, the packaging Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): industry has produced a number of new types of pack. I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the One way in which it has dealt with bread is through debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for smaller packs; fridge packs allow baked beans to last Rugby (Mark Pawsey) on securing it and on his continued longer once they are opened; and a great deal of packaging work to inform policy makers and the House of important is now subdivided, sometimes almost into individual issues to do with food and packaging. He rightly emphasised portions, so that the consumer can use some now and the importance of the subject, not only from an some later, which is common for salads and sliced environmental perspective but in terms of household meats. The packaging industry has made significant expenditure. Household bills are squeezed at the moment, strides in reducing food waste. It has further innovated and we have the opportunity through a variety of by introducing items such as zip locks on cheese packs different agencies to inform people better about where or breathable fruit and vegetable bags. their food comes from and how to use it most economically; The Fresher for Longer campaign, on its website, if we get things right, there could be many wins and points out eight ways in which packaging can assist in virtuous circles. Retailers clearly have a major role to reducing the amount of food that is thrown away. Some play; they have the relationship with the consumer that simple ones include: carrots, peppers and apples being is best suited to informing people. Everyone, however, best kept in the bag in which they were originally has a role, and I shall come on to talk about the Fresher supplied, because such packaging is specifically designed for Longer campaign and how to continue the work to keep the product fresher for longer; resealable packs achieved thus far. 331WH Food Waste24 APRIL 2013 Food Waste 332WH

[Richard Benyon] Richard Benyon: The hon. Lady’s comment is justified. It is absolutely right that the House holds the Government The Government identified food waste as a priority and all those involved to account and to make the target waste stream for action in their waste review. Although achievable but ambitious. UK annual household food waste has decreased since As with the Courtauld commitment, we are well on 2006 by 13%, which is more than 1.1 million tonnes, the way to reaching and exceeding targets on household UK households still waste a total of £12 billion in food food waste, but we are not leaving it there. I am pleased per year, which is about £50 a month for the average that the grocery sector has been as keen as we are to family; £6.7 billion of that total is due to food “not used keep working in this area, and it makes sense for it to do in time”, which we think of as wasted by not being so. We are working with the other UK Administrations—it eaten when it could have been. The rest of that total is is important that we do not operate in a Whitehall food waste that we think of as unavoidable, such as bubble—who are key to achieving our UK aims. bones, teabags, banana skins and so forth, as described Last year, we launched a new voluntary agreement by my hon. Friend; there will always be some of that to with the hospitality and food service sector to reduce be disposed of, and we should not try to escape the fact. food and packaging waste. That is the first of its kind in We all know that we ought to be wasting much less that sector. A huge amount of food and packaging is food, that food wasted means fewer pounds in our involved in the sector, and we have more than 141 pocket, that the energy and water used to produce the signatories to that agreement, so that sector will be food has been wasted, and that the transportation and doing its bit. packaging costs have been wasted. Not only that, but I turn to the important points raised by my hon. what happens to wasted food can have significant financial Friend on the Fresher for Longer campaign which Love and environmental costs. Most people want to do something Food Hate Waste launched early this year. Like him, I on a personal level about the situation and we are applaud Dick Searle, the Kent Waste Partnership, WRAP taking steps to help them to do so. The Government, by and many of the other partners for their work. I am funding WRAP, is working with consumers to help delighted that we trended more than Justin Bieber, but I them to save money and to reduce household food suspect that that was short-lived and we must make sure waste. Its Love Food Hate Waste campaign, which has we do better in the long run. been referred to, offers information and ideas on reducing food waste. The Fresher for Longer campaign was developed by Consumers have benefited from innovations that we WRAP, as was the Love Food Hate Waste campaign, have encouraged the industry to make, such as resealable and funded by the Government in partnership with salad bags, as described by my hon. Friend, resealable representatives from the food and packaging industries baked bean jars, leftovers recipe ideas or smaller-sized and local government. Packaging is often seen as the loaves of bread to suit a smaller household. We clarified problem, but the campaign shows the important part date labelling guidance in 2011 to make labels clearer so that packaging can play in helping to reduce food waste that people are more confident about what they mean and save consumers money. Throwing away food that is and how long food is safe to eat. My hon. Friend made not used in time is costing the average household £50 a the very good point that we have been needlessly throwing month. Only 13% of consumers realise that packaging away enormous amounts of food when it is perfectly can play an important role in protecting food in our safe to eat it. Retailers are doing good work with clearer homes. That is the reverse of the statistic that my hon. advice about how to store food and consistent labelling. Friend rightly raised. We must do an enormous amount I welcome that and want to see more of it. to ensure that we are improving on that. We are working with manufacturers and retailers to As consumers, we can all pay attention to the storage reduce food and packaging waste through the Courtauld information on food packaging, which will help us to commitment. In response to the hon. Member for Bristol store food at home so that it keeps fresher for longer. East (Kerry McCarthy), the second phase of that Keeping most fruit in the fridge in its packaging can commitment came to an end in December, as she knows. keep it fresher for a week or more, but around 60% of us We are working with WRAP and its signatories to take fruit out of the packaging, and more than 70% of develop a third phase of the agreement which we hope us do not store it in the fridge. Reclosing packs of to launch in the near future. WRAP has worked closely cheese and sliced meats helps to stop them drying out in with the Courtauld commitment 2, and with the UK the fridge, but 13% of us apparently store such food and devolved Governments to develop initial targets for unwrapped in the fridge, and there may be some changes the Courtauld commitment 3. The targets are still under in the Benyon household. If bread is stored in a fridge, consideration and will be announced when the commitment it will go stale six times quicker than if it is properly is launched. The grocery sector has made significant stored elsewhere. As my hon. Friend rightly said, 81% progress under the first two stages of Courtauld to of food waste is avoidable. reduce food packaging and supply chain waste in Retailers and food manufacturers can continue to the UK. The third-phase targets will build on those improve their packaging and do more to tell consumers achievements. about the innovations they are already making on food labelling and packaging. That will raise awareness of Kerry McCarthy: I thank the Minister for his response the benefits and encourage consumers to make use of to my question. In the second phase the target was 5% them. I will give an example. Marks & Spencer have and the industry managed to achieve 8.8%, which is reduced packaging by 25% over the last five years, but better than the target, but is low compared with other we must be mindful of continuing to protect the product countries. Norway has a target of 25% and the Dutch to avoid it being unnecessarily wasted. I have an image have a target of 20%. I urge him to try to set a more of naked cucumbers in my head, and my hon. Friend ambitious target in his discussion on the third phase. made a good point about them. Marks & Spencer has 333WH Food Waste 24 APRIL 2013 334WH introduced individually packaged meat and fish fillets Childhood Obesity and Diabetes within a larger bag to enable customers to use only the portions they need and to freeze the rest without exposing [MR PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] it to the atmosphere. The Fresher for Longer campaign’s materials can be 2.30 pm used by all retailers, brands and councils. That should stimulate further reductions in food waste and help Philip Davies (in the Chair): Before I call Mr Keith consumers to make the most of the food they buy. The Vaz, Members should be aware that although things are aim with packaging should always be to use the minimum quiet at the moment, we have been advised that there is level to protect the product from damage and to ensure a possibility of lots of noise outside, due to the work that it maintains its quality during its shelf life. If a being carried out to try and get the visitors’ entrance up product is wasted due to not enough packaging, its and running. If the noise reaches an unacceptable level disposal often has a greater environmental impact than and people are struggling to hear, we can ask them to the packaging itself, as my hon. Friend said. stop. Things are all quiet at the moment, but if that Some great examples of innovative food packaging happens, please let me know and we can do something have led to a reduction in packaging material and its about it. environmental impact, and increased the product’s shelf-life. I have given the example from Marks & Spencer, and Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a huge pleasure other examples include vacuum-packed fresh meat and for me both to serve under your chairmanship during fish from Marks & Spencer, Waitrose and the Co-op this important debate, Mr Davies, and to raise the issue where packaging has been reduced by up to 75% but of childhood obesity and type 2 diabetes. In 2007, after produces an extra five days of life. It is also important a chance testing by my local GP, Professor Azhar to continue efforts to reduce the environmental impact Farooqi, who is now the clinical commissioning group of any new packaging by, for example, making it easier lead in Leicester, I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. to recycle it and increasing recycling rates. Before I discovered that I had diabetes, it was not really The message is that we need the right sort of packaging. a subject that I was aware of. Since then, it has become The public perception, often among people who could my passion inside and outside Parliament. most benefit, is sometimes that we need smarter packaging I begin by paying tribute to the Minister, who has and easier-to-understand labelling but, as my hon. Friend truly revitalised the debate on obesity and diabetes since said, it is most important that people understand where becoming a Minister. I agree with her, in her interview food comes from and how to use it most effectively. with Total Politics this week, about the public health That will not only benefit the environment, but reduce Minister’s job. I have deleted one or two words, but she household expenditure. said that I assure my hon. Friend that we will continue to work “this is not a soft…girly option, it is a…serious job”, closely with informed people such as him, the packaging industries, retailers and others to ensure that across the and she is absolutely right. That is why I am delighted whole spectrum of food production, processing and to see, on the Opposition Front Bench, the shadow retailing we get the problems as right as we can. It is not Minister for public health, my hon. Friend the Member a job for Government alone, and cannot be driven from for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), a Minister’s desk in Whitehall. There must be solid who entered the House with me in 1987. partnership working throughout the United Kingdom, I am also delighted to see so many other Members of and I welcome the opportunity to discuss it today, but it Parliament who have either raised the issue of diabetes is very much work in progress. or have been involved in campaigns. There is the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who, like me, is 11.29 am a type 2 diabetes sufferer; the hon. Member for Mid Sitting suspended. Derbyshire (Pauline Latham), who has raised the matter many times in the House; and my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), who was in the Chamber, but has popped out. There is also the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh), the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris), who is my next-door neighbour in Norman Shaw North, and last but not least, the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders), who is the chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for diabetes and who, for many years, has raised the issue with such passion. Childhood obesity has become an important political issue. The NHS report, “Statistics on Obesity, Physical Activity and Diet”, of February 2012, stated that in 2010, about 30% of boys and girls were classified as either overweight or obese. The study found that 17% of boys and 15% of girls were obese, which is an increase from 11% and 12% respectively in only 15 years. The factors that cause childhood obesity are a major part of the debate. A recent study by University college London found that 30% of the difference between the 335WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 336WH

[Keith Vaz] Keith Vaz: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I fear that she may have seen a copy of my speech, bodyweight of one child and another can be explained because she has mentioned the very issues that I intend by their genes. However, genes alone cannot explain the to raise. All three areas are extremely important. It is rapidly increasing incidence of childhood obesity. not one area alone that can deal with the issue; it is a combination of all three factors. The ever-increasing numbers of overweight children must be addressed, or we will have a generation of The first factor is the manufacturers. Coca-Cola pledged obese children growing into obese adults. It will be a to reformulate their best-selling drinks to reduce calorie generation at risk from the associated dangers of being content by at least 30%, but it has chosen not to overweight, including having type 2 diabetes. Unless we reformulate its classic, full-fat Coca-Cola, the world’s do something about that trend now, the twin epidemics most popular drink. A can of full-fat Coca-Cola has of obesity and diabetes will overwhelm the NHS. eight teaspoons of sugar. If the responsibility deal is to be truly believed, it has to be more robust. The pace of change among food and drink companies must Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) be dramatically increased. The only alternative to the (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that whereas a responsibility deal, in my view, is legislation. generation ago, if a child was overweight, adults used to Last year, I introduced a private Member’s Bill, the say, “They will grow out of it”, we cannot afford that Diabetes Prevention (Soft Drinks) Bill, to reduce sugar type of complacency now? content in soft drinks by 4% and to establish a programme of research by requiring manufacturers of soft drinks to reinvest part of their profits in diabetes research. In Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I hope 2010, 14.5 billion litres of soft drinks were consumed in that by securing the debate and by hearing the contributions the United Kingdom. According to research by Professor of hon. Members, we can get a pathway to try and show Naveed Sattar of the university of Glasgow, the average that complacency will actually help people to get diabetes. person in the UK consumes between a fifth and a That is why I hope that hon. Members will join me quarter of their daily calorie allowance through non- today in a war on sugar, a fight against fat, and a battle alcoholic drinks. Those are somewhat hidden calories. against the bulge. Professor Sattar said: We must address three key areas. The first is the role “This analysis confirms that many people are perhaps not aware of the high calorie levels in many commonly consumed of Government in facing the obesity epidemic head on. drinks.” That is closely linked to the second key area, which is the role of food and drink manufacturers. The responsibility The consumption of sweetened soft drinks clearly has a deal was a flagship of the previous Secretary of State part to play in the increasing waistline of the nation. for Health, who is currently Leader of the House. It was Attempts to legislate on the issue have been rather launched in March 2011, but I am sorry to say, it unsuccessful. In September 2012, New York’s mayor, appears to have failed. Voluntary agreements with industry Michael Bloomberg, introduced a ban on super-size have made little impact. The headline pledge to cut fizzy drinks to tackle the city’s obesity problem. The 5 billion calories a day is simply incalculable, arbitrary ban was overturned in the New York Supreme Court by and misleading. a coalition of drinks companies and industry groups. Legislation has not been limited to sugary drinks. In The Department of Health, in response to a October 2011, the Danish Parliament passed a so-called parliamentary question of mine, said: fat tax on foods containing more than 2.3% saturated “It is not possible to measure the exact contribution of business’ fat. The tax was scrapped after concerns were raised actions to changes in consumers’ calorie consumption.”—[Official about its adverse effect on the economy as increasing Report, 6 February 2013; Vol. 558, c. 339W.] numbers of Danes crossed the border to purchase food By February 2013, 122 companies had signed up to one in Germany. Clearly, that would be less easy if we did or more of the responsibility deal’s six pledges, it is what such a thing in England, because of the ability to go to happens afterwards that really matters. Those pledges, Scotland and Wales. sadly, in my view—I am ready to be convinced otherwise The hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire mentioned when the Minister replies—have, at best, paid lip service schools. She is absolutely right. The third key area is the to the Government’s aim of getting the nation to eat role of schools in childhood obesity. Healthy eating in more healthily, drink less, be more active, and have schools has been given a real boost by initiatives such as healthier working lifestyles. Jamie Oliver’s “Feed Me Better” campaign, which successfully attempted to transform lunch-time menus. However, many schools still have vending machines Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Does the offering fizzy drinks and sugary snacks. We should issue right hon. Gentleman agree not only that parents have a an ultimatum: schools should remove all vending machines huge responsibility to feed their children appropriately by 31 December this year. That would go some way and ensure that they get adequate exercise, but that towards addressing the problem of bad nutrition in schools have a huge responsibility to give children nutritious, schools. non-fattening and not sweet foods—healthy foods—and through sports, encourage them to take the exercise that Ms Abbott: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is will make them healthy and set in train for their whole regrettable that the new academies are not subject to the lives the habits of exercising and eating healthily? It is same regulations in relation to food and not having not only about parents, because schools should help vending machines? Surely the strictures that apply to too, as well as the industry that he is talking about. state schools should apply to the new academies. 337WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 338WH

Keith Vaz: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. absolutely right: diet is crucial. That is why I wish the I did not know that that was the case, but if it is, it newly appointed diabetes tsar, Dr Jonathan Valabhji, should be put right. All those teaching establishments the best of luck in dealing with those figures. should be treated on the same basis and should all get How do we cope with this situation? There are practical the same message from Government. steps that health care providers, local authorities and Let us consider the issue of where schools are situated the general public can take, but the key is prevention. and the ability of fast-food chains to mushroom around The new NHS health checks will offer those aged between schools. Many children purchase fast food on their way 40 and 74 a check to assess their risk of heart disease, home from school. For many, fast food is readily available. stroke, kidney disease and diabetes. If only I had had For example, in my constituency, there are 61 fast-food that check when I was 40, I would have discovered six outlets within a 1-mile radius of Rushey Mead primary years earlier that I had diabetes. However, new research school. Positive action has been taken by some local revealed by the university of Leicester on Friday suggests authorities. Waltham Forest council, for example, banned that the checks could detect at least 158,000 new cases fast-food outlets near schools in 2008. However, more of diabetes or kidney disease, but they are not being must be done to address the issue. Since 1 April 2013 taken up. I pay tribute to the work of Professor Kamlesh and the creation of health and wellbeing boards, the Khunti of Leicester university, who was behind the onus has surely been on local councils to consider research that revealed the number of cases that could be sensible planning restrictions to tackle childhood obesity. discovered. The health check has enormous potential to find those in the early stages of diabetes or even with Schools need to do more to educate pupils about the symptoms of pre-diabetes. benefits of eating a healthy diet. I commend the excellent report by Ella’s Kitchen, “Averting A Recipe For Disaster”, which urges the Department for Education to address The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health poor nutrition for children by making cooking in schools (Anna Soubry): I apologise, Mr Davies, for what may compulsory and by giving free breakfasts to every child. become something of a love-in. I will probably pinch We currently have an epidemic of childhood obesity, some of the right hon. Gentleman’s speech, and I pay which in 20 years’ time will turn into an epidemic of tribute to the great work that he has done. Does he type 2 diabetes. agree that great work has been done in Leicester with the health checks that are being rolled out there? The The incidence of diabetes is truly alarming. Sometimes approach is forward-thinking. Anyone who registers we repeat these statistics so often that they lose their with a doctor and is in the right age group automatically impact, but I have to repeat them again today. There are gets a health check. The work is also being driven by the an estimated 3 million people in the UK with the excellent charity with which the right hon. Gentleman is condition, and a further 850,000 are thought to have the associated. Does he agree that real, positive work is condition but are not aware of it. The complications being done in Leicester from which the rest of the from poorly managed and poorly treated diabetes are country can learn? shocking. It is the leading cause of blindness, kidney failure and lower-limb amputations. Each week, there Keith Vaz: Absolutely. I thank the Minister for her are 100 diabetes-related amputations; and each year, kind words. I know that she has to pass Leicester in 24,000 people die earlier than expected due to complications order to get to London and I know that she has made a from the condition. Not only are the health risks extreme, number of visits to the city; she was there recently. I but the cost to the NHS is enormous. It is astonishing. thank her for the compliment that she has paid to The NHS spends roughly £9.8 billion a year and 10% of Leicester and to Silver Star. The Government must not its budget treating the condition and its associated miss this opportunity to set targets for GPs, because it is complications. only through setting targets that we can secure real change. Pauline Latham: The right hon. Gentleman talks Another avenue that could be explored is the role of about amputations. My own father had his leg amputated pharmacies in testing for diabetes. According to the because of diabetic complications, but his problem was Royal Pharmaceutical Society, there are more than 10,000 that he never stuck to his diet. People must be given community pharmacies in the UK. I believe that those more help to understand the complications that they pharmacies are under-utilised. My mother, before she can and probably will incur if they do not take the died, had absolute faith in her local pharmacist. Of prognosis seriously and control their diet, because if course she listened to her doctor and she got her they do not do so, they will have those long-term prescription. On occasion, she would listen to her son problems. and her daughters. However, the person she really respected was the pharmacist, and because pharmacies are on the Keith Vaz: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I do not high street, they are available to local people, so they want to steal lines from the Minister’s speech, but when can get their tests. The benefits of testing for diabetes in she recently addressed a forum on diabetes, that was pharmacies are twofold. Bringing testing into the exactly what she said: diet is extremely important. We community because the pharmacies are there means are all busy people and when we walk into the Tea that hundreds of thousands of people who have not Room for our cup of tea, we are faced with Club been diagnosed with the condition can discover whether biscuits, Jaffa Cakes, Victoria sponges—plural—and all or not they have it and, more importantly, it would kinds of other things that entice us, so even if I go in reduce the pressure on already over-burdened GPs. saying that I must have a banana or an apple, I end up, Finally, I want to talk about the new landscape of as the hon. Member for Strangford has seen, picking up health care and its role in tackling diabetes. The Health a Club biscuit. The hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire is and Social Care Act 2012 offers an unparalleled opportunity 339WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 340WH

[Keith Vaz] off presenting with type 1 by adopting a very sensible diet and exercise regime, but that is not proven. The fact to revolutionise diabetes care and prevention. I warmly is that there is not a lot that most people can do to stop welcome the introduction of health and wellbeing boards, it happening, myself—a type 1 diabetic—included. It is which will put local councils firmly in the driving seat to going to happen; it is a question of when. address public health. I have always believed that local authorities have a role in providing those services. The vast majority of people with diabetes have type 2, Importantly, the boards will be able to work with charities, which is explicitly linked to lifestyle. Other risk factors such as Diabetes UK, which have done outstanding include ethnicity and family history. Type 2 usually work over many years and provided so much help to so manifests later in life, but lifestyle in a person’s early many people. The first thing I did when I discovered years has considerable bearing on later risk. Just to I had diabetes was become a member of Diabetes UK. I confuse the situation, rather worryingly, we now see receive constant updates about what I should do and a cases of children developing type 2 diabetes, with about little loyalty card, which I have not used yet, but it has 500 cases diagnosed in the UK to date. It is therefore the telephone number. extremely worrying to hear that a quarter of children entering reception classes are overweight or obese—the It would be remiss of me not to bring up Silver Star, proportion rising to one third at age 11. which the Minister mentioned and with which I am privileged to be associated. It targets at-risk communities. How significant a public health disaster obesity is Indeed, having been established in Leicester, sent buses likely to become cannot be overstated. On current trends, to Mumbai and Goa, and supported charitable work in it is estimated that direct costs to the NHS will be Yemen, the charity opened its first London diabetes £10 billion a year by 2050 and the wider social costs will centre in Edgware only two weeks ago with the help of be many times that once issues such as early incapacity, Mr Speaker, in the place he was born—not quite the lack of productivity and so on are factored in. An obese hospital, because Edgware general is down the road. He man is five times more likely to develop diabetes than a was born in Edgware however, and it was great to have healthy man. Obese women are 13 times more likely to him back to open the new unit. develop it than their healthy counterparts. Diabetes is The charity has sought—this takes us back to the one of the more costly long-term conditions for the point made by the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire—to NHS to deal with, so higher levels of obesity will clearly deal with issues relating to children and sport; the lead to greater problems for the NHS, and I am not sure importance of diet; and the role of parents and anyone has yet figured out how to address the human professionals. On Friday, the charity and I will unveil and financial costs. the winners of a painting competition held by Silver I am happy to welcome the work that the Government Star in association with Leicester City football club. All have undertaken so far on diabetes and wider public the school children of Leicester were asked to paint a health issues. We have made significant progress in picture showing the importance of a healthy lifestyle. I identifying where the problems are and what is causing thank the football club’s chairman, Mr Raksriaksorn, them, and the national diabetes audits have been a great and his son Top for naming the charity as one of their help in that regard. For all its controversies, the Health charities of the year and for working with it to ensure and Social Care Act 2012 should allow health care that children realise the importance of sport. I hope professionals to integrate what they do with local authorities, that on Friday not only will the winner of the competition public health services, schools and so on—whether it be announced, but Leicester City football club will at happens in practice has yet to be seen. last get into the play-offs where we belong, as it is one of the last games of the season. The overarching problems are clear: a more sedentary The health clock on diabetes has reached 11.59 pm. lifestyle, and, in childhood, the attraction of TV and We need either to toughen the responsibility deal or to video games; the lack of structured sport and exercise— pass legislation. Schools need to take immediate action especially in schools—and an increased perception among to remove vending machines that sell sugary drinks. We parents of the heightened dangers of playing outside. need local councils to give fewer planning permissions Coupled with those is an increasingly unhealthy diet, for fast-food outlets near schools, or, better still, no exacerbated by excessively sugary, salty and fatty foods. planning permissions. We need a radically different A difficulty arises when we consider how to tackle what approach to ensure that everyone at risk is tested for is at root a cultural problem. France, for example, diabetes. If we do not do so, the NHS will be overwhelmed experiences the same commercial challenges, with the and it will not only affect our generation, but our availability of unhealthy food and the growth of electronic children’s generation. That is why we must act now. entertainment, but has only half the UK’s rate of childhood obesity. A lot of voices call for quick, and sometimes superficial, Government interventions, such as banning 2.53 pm or regulating sugary cereals, a tax on particularly unhealthy Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): It is a pleasure to products and so on. Such policies might have some serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, for the first value as part of a wider strategy, but on their own they time. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Leicester will not effect the cultural shift we need. East (Keith Vaz) on securing this important debate. We need to improve the ability of consumers, especially I would like to highlight the clear distinction between parents, to make informed decisions about what food to type 1 and type 2 diabetes. The vast majority of children buy and prepare. To me, that implies a two-pronged with diabetes have type 1, which is not preventable and approach, with better food labelling at the point of needs daily treatment with insulin. That is not to say sale—whether at a supermarket, restaurant or even that diet is not important; some believe that one can put fast-food outlet—and better education, particularly in 341WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 342WH schools, both playing a role. We need to look at promoting Worryingly, the prevalence of type 2 diabetes is increasing alternatives to sugar, especially in soft drinks, which rapidly in Scotland, as well as across the UK, with the contribute a great deal to childhood obesity. largest part of the increase likely to be due to poor diet I spoke at a diabetes conference yesterday. A concern and low levels of physical activity, resulting in increased that came up, which has been coming up for years, is levels of obesity. Our diet in Scotland was a response to that previous strategies to improve outcomes have often a life spent in the heavy industries, but it is totally failed due to silo working or a lack of integration unsuitable for a career spent in front of a computer between services. In Torbay at least, the health care screen. Activity levels are far too low to burn off our system has recognised the serious problems that causes daily calorie intake. To give children the best start in and has integrated primary and social care services, life, early life interventions need to begin before and which gives it a head start when tackling public health during pregnancy, continue through infancy into early issues. We now need that principle extended to the years settings, such as nurseries and childminders, and policies and services that impact on child health, specifically carry on into primary school. obesity. In Whitehall, there has always been a chasm In my constituency of Inverclyde, we have had to take between the Department of Health and the Department steps to address the growing problem. Many years ago, for Education, and it needs bridging at national and we started to educate children and parents about healthy local levels. We would do well to recognise that prevention eating. In primary schools, our classes are in competition works best the earlier it starts. to see who the healthiest eaters are and which are the Statistics show that children are already in trouble most active classes in their school. Our schools have before they get to school, so there is a role for early sports co-ordinators, who introduce and encourage kids years services as well. Whether we like it or not, public to participate in a wide variety of sports. It is not only services are driven by financial imperatives and we will that—our schools link up with local sports clubs to need to address the problems at the funding level, by encourage kids to continue to be active after school and giving schools, GPs and all the other interested parties a at weekends. shared duty to tackle public health issues and rewarding As we heard from my right hon. Friend the Member those that show innovation in their curriculums. for Leicester East, we continue to have vending machines Change4Life is a good start. It rightly highlights that in our schools, but in Inverclyde we have put healthy strategies and solutions are best designed and delivered foods in them. Fizzy drinks are no longer available in at a local level. our schools; the only thing that can be bought from I conclude by praising the Member for Leicester East vending machines is water. Granted, it is difficult to get for securing the debate and for the work he does. I also companies to participate in that, but our schools have thank the other hon. Members here today who are been encouraged to do it off their own bats, if need be. tireless campaigners in the field, and the Minister for Fast food and mobile vans have been banned from her fresh approach to the subject. Any strategy we use being within a one-mile radius of our schools, so that if must bring local stakeholders together. Whatever we a child—especially those in secondary schools—wishes do, it needs to be more ambitious than what we are to partake in fast food outlets, at least they have to walk doing. a distance to get there and back. The early years offer the best opportunity to put in place healthy behaviours around food and physical 3pm activity, which will hopefully be sustained into adulthood. Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure, Central to that is the involvement of families. Mr Davies, to serve under your chairmanship. I also Encouragement must start within families to adopt a thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester healthy lifestyle and eat healthier foods. Today, 15 out East (Keith Vaz) for securing this important and timely of every 100 primary school children in Scotland aged debate. Across the UK, childhood obesity is soaring between four and a half and five and a half are dangerously and, with it, diabetes. We need to deal with childhood overweight. Diabetes is a serious condition that causes obesity sensitively and robustly, and we must not make heart disease, stroke, amputations, kidney failure and the mistake of thinking that one solution will fit all blindness, and more deaths than breast and prostate children. Obesity in childhood is a complicated condition cancer combined. and can have many different causes. Childhood obesity Almost a quarter of a million people in Scotland often persists into adult life, and adults who are obese have diabetes. New statistics in the annual Scottish as children have a higher risk of diseases associated diabetes survey show that the number of people with with obesity, particularly type 2 diabetes, hypertension, the condition has continued to increase alarmingly by cardiovascular diseases and, yes, even cancer. about 10,000 a year. The majority of those people will The UK has one of the highest levels of childhood have type 2 diabetes, a form of the disease that can be obesity among developed countries. I will take a moment caused by an unhealthy lifestyle and can be so easily to discuss what has been happening in Scotland, because prevented. Across all four nations in the UK, we have we share that problem. In fact, it is probably multiplied. seen a huge rise in childhood obesity. In common with most of the developed world, Scotland We know that losing weight is about more than just is experiencing an obesity epidemic, and the west of altering your diet, but people are different. There are Scotland heads up all the wrong health leagues in burners and storers. Storers find it difficult to lose Europe. Scotland has one of the highest levels of obesity weight, but love food—and love the wrong food—and among OECD countries. Only the USA and Mexico do not take to exercise too keenly. Those additional have higher levels. Recent figures show that 26% of factors lead to their heading in the wrong direction with adults in Scotland are obese and 65% are overweight. their weight, and that can subsequently lead to diabetes. For children, the corresponding rates are 15% and 31%. Let us not assume, however, that all is well with the thin 343WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 344WH

[Mr Iain McKenzie] Let me start with the assumption that an obese child is an abnormality in some sense or other. It is not people whom we meet, because poor diet can cause normal in nature for children to be obese; what is rather problems. We clearly need an approach that combines more normal is for people, as they get older, to find it diet, exercise, the education of children—and, crucially, difficult to stop being obese. If we think of portraits of the education of parents—and psychological support. obesity in literature, we think of Billy Bunter in the ’40s. We need to increase physical activity at primary school Then, obesity was seen, in a very naive way, as a and carry that on into secondary school. We need to consequence of childhood greed, because it was a rare encourage leisure activities for children to get them and not well understood phenomenon. An earlier example involved in sports and away from their computers and is the plump lad in Dickens—I think he was called the TV screens. fat boy—who was actually a thyroid victim. However, such children were unusual enough in those days to be Ms Abbott: Does my hon. Friend agree that, while all pointed out; they were not at all a standard thing. Now, the things he said are important, it is also important as all of us have recorded, the phenomenon of obese that children take an intelligent interest in what they are children is no longer a rarity in an advanced society. eating? In that respect, Martha, the young woman in Last week, the Minister and I attended an event Scotland who photographed and blogged about her organised by the all-party group on obesity, although I school lunch, is an example of a young person who is do not think she was aware I was there. A very earnest engaged in food quality. man told us we need to be careful about every extra Mars bar we eat every day; otherwise, we would increase Mr McKenzie: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend our weight exponentially and eventually end up with and I will give her an example. During my time in local serious problems. He was particularly horrid about egg government, I took the opportunity of taking a few custards and the like. Although what he said was probably school meals with the kids. Was the message getting broadly correct, I could not help thinking that it was across? Yes, because they told the teacher that I had not really sensible for any of us constantly to calculate only two pieces of fruit and had not taken my five exactly how much we had eaten, whether we had eaten pieces of fruit. The message gets across if it is emphasised too much or too little and by how much. I was slightly time and again. reassured by some research that came out after that event, which said, as the hon. Member for Inverclyde As I said, we need to increase physical activity at (Mr McKenzie)has just done, that there is more to this primary school and carry that on into secondary school. issue than meets the eye. If people become plump, it is The competition for young people’s leisure time has not just a question of over-supply; it is sometimes to do never been greater. Many prefer to play a sport on the with their glands and their endocrinology—whether Wii than try it for real. The issue is not only with the they are burners or storers. young, but with the elderly. A unique group called the Globetrotters has recently been set up in my area. It I recognise that this is a complex problem, but the encourages the elderly to be more active and its members fact of the matter is that the nations that have an have, in their actions—their steps are counted and their obesity problem, as many advanced nations do, always trips are mapped out— walked to the moon and are on have three principal characteristics: a relatively unlimited their way back. “Walking to the moon and back” is the supply of food, easy access to that food—in other group’s most ambitious trip to date. The Globetrotters words, it does not have to be cooked or prepared in a is a fantastic example of what can be done from a long, elaborate way and can simply be grabbed—and a perspective of physical exercise not needing to be that sedentary lifestyle. I do not see any of those changing challenging. any time soon. All three are probably necessary before nations have an obesity problem, and all three are, in The food industry, as we have heard, needs to take many respects, here to stay. responsibility for the fizzy drinks and sweet foods targeted I am therefore a little sceptical about claims that there at children. Healthy eating patterns, as we know, are is an easy solution to this problem. While other Members formed in childhood and taken into adulthood, and were speaking, I wrote down some of the solutions that new research has warned that suffering obesity as a were advocated, and every one can be faulted in some child may take a bigger toll on health in adulthood than way. School dinners were mentioned. I used to be a was previously thought. If we do not put in place a teacher, and I used to see children walk past pictures of varied approach to tackling obesity, a major and irreversible big, rosy apples, lettuces and things like that, before time bomb will be ticking away at our children’s and our going straight for the pizza and chips. I was sometimes nation’s health. Obesity will cost the NHS billions. aware of how futile and ineffectual healthy eating Obesity-related illnesses already cost the NHS an estimated programmes can be. The reality is that school dinners— £5.1 billion a year. If we are to get to grips with it, we many of us have experienced them—have never been need to do a lot more together, starting right now, notably healthy or low in calories, because it is assumed before the problem becomes worse and the NHS can no that children need lots of energy to get through the day. longer cope. Working hard on school dinners and children’s choices is not, therefore, necessarily an easy solution. 3.9 pm A tax on fattening food was mentioned, and I am John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I pay tribute to the sure you would not warm to one at all, Mr Davies. The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who reality is that most food, if we eat enough of it, is introduced the debate, for his characteristic generosity fattening, with the possible exception of lettuce and in congratulating all the other Members present; that is something else, which requires more calories to eat it very much a feature of his style. than we get from it—[HON.MEMBERS: “Celery.”] 345WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 346WH

On education, the British public are not particularly really minded. Clearly, similar results can be achieved lacking in knowledge about the things that make them by agreement with sugar producers, and there is no fat and the things that are likely to have a less adverse reason why that should not happen. Again, however, effect. They are probably not quite as acutely aware as people tend to deceive themselves. We are all familiar they should be about the calories in individual things. with the phenomenon of people who sit there with a One of the easier ways of addressing some of the beefburger and chips, but who have a diet coke by their problems we have with alcohol is reminding people side. The assumption is that if they drink the diet coke, what the calorie intake from a glass of wine or a pint of the effect of the chips and the beefburger will somehow beer actually is. However, that is not an automatic or a be negligible. simple solution either. The right hon. Member for Leicester East mentioned Changes in family lifestyle were mentioned. Parental the issue of access. Access to fast food is one of the responsibility is important, but, at the same time, people’s principal reasons why society has the difficulties it does. lifestyles will be under increasing pressure in many When we go to railway stations or other places where ways—there is no evidence they will be under less we are in a hurry to buy things to take on our journey, it pressure. is noticeable that we are presented with larger snacks than we would want, such as grab bags and extra-large Ms Abbott: I am listening with interest to what the chocolate bars. There is no explanation for that, other hon. Gentleman is saying, and I will respond to some of than that the producers are being blatantly irresponsible it in my remarks. He does not think the general public and trying to shift more of their product. are ignorant of what food contains or the calorific value of food. However, people are often shocked to find that I must make a confession that may shock many there is sugar in things such as baked beans and tomato Members present. As a student, I once worked as an ice ketchup; they often do not know how much sugar and cream salesman, driving an ice cream van. Our strategy fat there is in processed food. People who want to do was always to turn up at schools around lunch time, right by their child will feed them these so-called breakfast although my ice cream was of such low grade that the cereal bars, but they do not understand how much children would walk past my van. Instead, they would sugar and fat there is in them. go to the Mr Whippy van, even if it got there later, so our strategy did not entirely work. However, Members John Pugh: There are benefits to the approach I can see that having food near lots of ravenous children outlined, although the people who are most acutely is attractive to commercial interests, even if it is irresponsible aware of the calorific content and the quality of their of them to pursue such a strategy. food are those who are already halfway to solving the All those solutions have merit, but most of them have problem. However, many people do not get even to that limitations. It is tempting simply to say there are a lot of first base, and that is where public health messages have issues—I have said as much myself—and that we have an impact. to press all the buttons to get the effect we want. I am Mr Sanders: Does my hon. Friend not think there quite happy to go along with that, I would like us to would be an enormous benefit in having a simple traffic-light concentrate on what works and on what there is clear system so that parents buying children food understand evidence to support; that is what I think needs to that red means danger? Similarly, people queuing up at happen. One serious problem that concerns me, and a fast-food restaurant will know which items on the which has been mentioned, is tokenism. I have seen menu contain the most sugar. tokenism in action; I have seen schools go through the motions of telling the children a bit about food and John Pugh: I hope hon. Members do not misunderstand sticking up the appropriate pictures, but nothing really me. I am not saying that various bits of the jigsaw changes, so the phenomenon persists because it has not cannot be put together and cannot ultimately constitute been properly addressed. There is irrevocably an element a perfectly satisfactory solution. I am saying that every of personal and family responsibility. We cannot take one of the solutions so far advocated must come with a that out of the equation. However, the most successful caution, because it is not likely to be the magic bullet methods of making it easier for people to make the that will transform things. There is no magic bullet, and right choices must be evidenced, supported, endorsed I will return to that theme when I conclude. and spread. We should not put into practice a mechanism On sport, it is unquestionably the case that one that might or might not work. reason why children acquire the extra pounds is that A concern that results indirectly from concentration they move around far less than they ever did. When I on the problem in question is the increasing incidence was at school, the dinners were intensely fattening, but among children of not diabetes but eating disorders. children moved far more, so the obesity problem was However we pursue the agenda, we must do so in a way not that marked. One issue, however, is that if the that makes it less likely that increasing numbers of problem starts early, as my hon. Friend the Member for children will, because of a legitimate concentration on Torbay (Mr Sanders) suggested, and the child is already their health and weight, become obsessed with their overweight, he or she will be more reluctant to engage body shape and develop problems with eating behaviour in sport and likely to look for excuses to avoid sport, so that they would not have if they grew up naturally and offering them a wider menu of sporting opportunities, in a satisfactory way. by itself, will not help. Pressure on producers and the responsibility deal 3.20 pm were mentioned, and a lot can be achieved through such measures. The Minister will confirm that we have, almost Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to without noticing, reduced the amount of salt in our take part in the debate. I have several things in common food by agreement with the producers, and nobody has with the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith 347WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 348WH

[Jim Shannon] to produce poisonous chemicals known as ketones. If undetected, those ketones can result in serious illness, Vaz), not least that we support the same football team. I coma and death. We all know people who have come have done so since 1969, and I hope we shall be in the through that, and I am aware of people who have premier league next year. The second thing is that we succumbed to diabetes. are type 2 diabetics, as a result of our lifestyle—from The number of people living with types 1 and 2 about the same time, as I became a diabetic some five diabetes has increased by 33% in Northern Ireland years ago. during the last five years; that is the largest increase in I acknowledge that I am a diabetic because of the the United Kingdom, compared with 25% in England, lifestyle I had. Hon. Members may know the experience 20% in Wales and 18% in Scotland. The total number of of being offered a well man check by the doctor, who adults with diabetes—those aged 17 and over—registered always says there is good news and bad news; we say, with GPs in our small part of the UK is just shy of “Tell me the bad news first.” The doctor five years ago 76,000, and 1,038 young people under 17 are known to told me, “The bad news is you are diabetic. The good have type 1 diabetes, which is another significant rise. news is you can manage it if you really want to.” That Prevalence in the Northern Ireland population is now was the thrust of it. He said “You can ignore this, and more than 4%. Some 10,000 people have diabetes without shortly you will be on tablets, and then on injections.” having been diagnosed with the condition. It is scary He was not scaremongering, but just wanted me to stuff, when we realise what is happening in our region. I know exactly what the condition meant. He said, “Your had occasion to speak about that with the right hon. diabetes will not kill you, but what will kill you will be Member for Leicester East before the debate. all the things that come from it: your blood pressure Through my colleague, the Northern Ireland Health and heart, or amputations and stress levels.” I know fine Minister, I encouraged the purchase of insulin pumps rightly that I became a diabetic because of my lifestyle for type 1 diabetics, which was done last year; we have five years ago. The fact is I love Chinese food; five days also encouraged the provision of training for family a week I had a sweet and sour pork and two bottles of members, guardians and health staff in the use of the Coke. It never changed—I like it, and so that was what pumps. When a Minister is committed to the issue, happened. As well as that there was all the stress of the things can happen. job—previously I was an Assembly Member in Northern I have every confidence in the Minister who is present Ireland, and a councillor. I love long hours, and they do for the debate. In my short time here I have witnessed not bother me at all—and that probably applies to every her contribution in her role, and her commitment to other hon. Member; the hours were not an issue, but the change and to taking hard decisions. I do not agree with stress is. everything that she does, but I admire her commitment Clearly I had to make changes. Looking back to the job, and many things that she has done have not into my ancestry, no one—not my mother, father or gone unnoticed. grandparents—had diabetes. I was the first in my family, Approximately 90% of the 3.7 million people in the so the cause was clearly my lifestyle. I make that point UK diagnosed with diabetes have type 2. I have brought because of the question of heredity and the hope that I that issue to the attention of the Northern Ireland would not pass on my difficulties to my children or my Health Minister, as I am very aware of the ticking time wee granddaughter, four-year-old Katie-Lee. The question bomb that diabetes is, and the key initiatives in operation is how to instil in children and grandchildren the necessary in Northern Ireland. He is clearly doing a great job, control, so that they eat the right food, in the right way. including setting aside funding to employ additional I was on diet control in January, and am now on two diabetes staff—specialists, nurses, dieticians and podiatrists: Metformin tablets in the morning, and two at night; all help that a diabetic needs, but perhaps not enough. there is nothing graceful about growing old. We may All the hon. Members who have spoken have done so need tablets to keep us going, and probably most of us with honesty; if we put all the ideas together in a big in the Chamber are of that ilk. The question for me is pot, perhaps we will find a way forward. We need to what I can do as a grandfather, and as an MP, to protect instil good eating habits in children that will not lead to my granddaughter and children, and everyone else, diabetes later in life. from becoming diabetic. Rates of obesity—because that is the twin thrust of The UK has the fifth highest rate in the world of type the debate—tend to rise with increasing disadvantage 1 diabetes in children. That can lead to serious health across developed countries, particularly among women. problems such as blindness and strokes, to name but In 2006 in Northern Ireland, 18% of children aged two. Some 24.5 children in every 100,000 aged 14 and between two and 15 years were reported to be obese. In under are diagnosed with the condition every year in 2008-09, the child health system reported that 5.3% of the UK. Statistics are real to those of us who are primary 1 children surveyed were obese. The hon. Member focused on the disease and how to deal with it. The for Southport (John Pugh) said that when we were UK’s rate is about twice as high as the rate in Spain, young, many years ago, for someone to be of a certain which is 13 in every 100,000, and in France, which is size was unusual. It is not any more. In the survey I 12.2 in every 100,000. The league table covers only 88 mentioned, 22.5% of the children were described as countries where the rate of incidence of type 1 diabetes overweight or obese. That is a massive number. is recorded. There are around 1,038 children under the We need to educate parents on what they are teaching age of 17 living with type 1 diabetes in Northern Ireland, their children through their lunches and dinners. Some and almost one in four of those reached diabetic schools in my area implemented a healthy snack policy, ketoacidosis before a diagnosis was made. DKA can where twice a week children were not allowed to bring develop quickly and occurs when a lack of insulin in crisps or chocolate, but had to bring in fruit or a upsets the body’s normal chemical balance and causes it healthy option. That is fantastic, and it is good that it 349WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 350WH happens, but some parents pointed out how much more 3.33 pm expensive it was. We should consider how to make healthy food more affordable for young families in the Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) present economic difficulties. (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) on securing this important debate on childhood obesity and diabetes. We know the Mr McKenzie: On that issue, is the hon. Gentleman parameters of the problem: on current trends in childhood concerned, as I am, about supermarkets that employ obesity, more than half of British children will be obese the tactic of making their fruit ripen as early as possible, or overweight by 2020. A particular concern of mine, as so that families have to make several trips to purchase the representative of an inner-city constituency, is that healthy options for their child’s lunch box? children in the poorest decile are more than twice as likely to be obese compared with those in a more Jim Shannon: Many parents have made me aware of affluent or middle class decile. It is curious that, generations that. There is a key role for supermarkets and how they ago, obesity was a challenge faced by the well-off. We do things. When we go to the supermarket—let us be now live in a society, both here and in north America, honest—we can always find a multipack of crisps or where obesity is often a disease of poverty. I will return chocolate. By the way, there is nothing wrong with that to that point. as long as it is done, like anything in this world, in We also know that diabetes is the No. 1 health threat moderation. Children love a treat, and why should they in the UK, where 3.7 million people live with the not have one if it does them no harm? disease, and as the Royal College of Paediatrics and Unfortunately, it is more difficult to find a multipack Child Health has told us, care processes and outcomes of fruit juice, or bags of fruit on offer or sliced up. It is for children with diabetes in England and Wales remain much handier for parents to pick up a bag of crisps for significantly worse than those for adults, which is what their child’s break than to take the time to cut up fruit makes this debate so important. Thinking on the issue when they cannot afford to buy the pre-cut fruit that has changed. When I was a child, people said of a child they want. I believe that we need to change that by who was a bit chubby, “Oh, they’ll grow out of it.” It encouraging supermarkets to put regular offers on healthy was not seen as anything to worry about. We now know options, and perhaps by looking at tax incentives to that overweight children become overweight adults, with make such options a realistic lifestyle choice, and not all the associated health problems. just a fad to go for for a wee while. As always, the hon. Member for Southport (John One of the community groups in my area, the East Pugh) made an interesting speech, but he said a few End residents association, has put on a cooking class things that perhaps need amplification. He seemed to for its ladies group, which showed them how to cook say that it was inevitable that there would be a problem healthily for the family in a quick and cheap way. of obesity in advanced societies. I was in Finland last Women of all ages learned how they could cook on a week, and Scandinavian countries—Finland, Sweden, budget, but still provide a healthy and satisfying meal. Denmark—do not have our problems with obesity. That is also key, and I suggest that funding might be set That is for all sorts of reasons, one of which is that aside for community groups and churches to put on Governments have taken the issue seriously and made such classes, which could make real lifestyle changes to what were sometimes hard decisions to try to change entire households. public health outcomes. Unfortunately, at the moment there are few homes The hon. Gentleman seemed to imply that school that can afford to have only one parent in work, with dinners are not necessarily part of the solution. I believe the mother at home cooking and cleaning—that now that, certainly for primary school age children, being has to be fitted around another job—but we must exposed to a range of healthy foods and having healthy educate people and teach them that short cuts can be school dinners makes a difference to outcomes for diet. made so that healthy meals and snacks for families are I also believe that it is worth educating school children still provided. Will the Minister kindly address that and about diet. There has been a complete turnaround of explain what can be done to educate and help those who public attitudes to smoking over the past 30 years. simply do not know how to do the best for their Many things contributed to that, including Government families? A surprising number of families cannot do so, action, but it was also due to the role of education and so we should try to achieve that if we can. public heath campaigns. I believe that, in the medium In conclusion, it is clear that something needs to be term, we can do that for healthy eating and diet issues. done. If there is one message from every speaker, it is We therefore know the parameters of the problem that we all agree that something needs to be done; the and that, as has been said, it cannot be fully accounted question is how best to deliver that. Many children and for by genetics; it is due to a mix of a more sedentary adults will not be able to live a healthy life because of lifestyle and the consumption of far too many calories something that they could have made small changes to through the eating of more fatty, salty and sugary prevent. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Leicester products. We should note, however, that one reason why East on bringing this matter to the Chamber. Many people eat more fatty, salty, sugary and processed foods more hon. Members would like to make a contribution, than they did when we were children is that they are but I can say one thing—every one of us, as elected marketed aggressively at families and children. I want representatives, has constituents for whom this issue is to talk about pester power. If a child sees endless key. We look forward to hearing the response from the advertisements for Ronald McDonald, the parents, even Minister, as well as the speech from the shadow Minister, if they know better, find themselves under great pressure the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington when they are out to purchase foods that they know in (Ms Abbott). their hearts are probably not the best for their children. 351WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 352WH

[Ms Diane Abbott] but also great opportunities. Potentially, it could mean an end to silo working, because in an ideal world, the An occasional treat is one thing, but the problem relates education, environmental and leisure services departments to when such foods are not just an occasional treat, but work alongside public health professionals to achieve have become the mainstay of a child’s diet. better public health outcomes. We must not forget that Government Members have talked about parental for every pound that is spent on things that affect our responsibility. I believe in that, but we must bear it in health, only 10%, I think, is spent by the NHS. The rest mind that childhood obesity and related conditions, is spent by housing and leisure departments. Moving such as diabetes, are issues not just for the child and public health to local authorities represents a tremendous their family, but for us as a wider society that is concerned opportunity to deal with diabetes and obesity-related about the health and well-being of all our people. To be issues. blunt, there is also the cost of childhood obesity and of This has been a friendly debate, and people have diabetes, hypertension and all the related conditions. I fallen over themselves to be nice to each other, but let think that fully 20% of the NHS drugs budget currently me perhaps insert a slightly cautious note. The great goes on drugs for diabetes. It is all very well to talk Professor Terence Stephenson, chair of the Academy of about parental responsibility, and about the nanny state Medical Royal Colleges and of the Royal College of as opposed to the Pontius Pilate state, but I think that Paediatrics and Child Health, said this in relation to the state owes its people a philosophical responsibility, responsibility deals: and we certainly owe the taxpayer a practical responsibility “The food industry cannot be relied upon to help lead the to do something about the financial consequences of policy response to obesity. This is not a criticism of the food the growing wave of childhood obesity and diabetes. industry. It would be extraordinary if an industry with a duty to make profits for shareholders should act against its mission to John Pugh: I want to take the shadow Minister back push products and sell as much of them as possible. Asking the to her remarks about marketing. I genuinely accept food industry to solve the problem is counter-intuitive; you would much of what she said, but there is this phenomenon: not put Dracula in charge of a blood bank.” firms such as Waitrose tell us that it spends a lot of time Of course it is fine to co-operate with industry, but promoting healthy options, presumably to customers industry must know that the Government are serious who can afford to shop there, but nevertheless records and that, in end they will legislate if they do not that people buy more convenience food from it. The co-operate. Responsibility deals are fine in principle, fact that we go for convenience food is not just a direct but if industry thinks that it is all carrot and no stick, result of marketing. we will not get the results that we all want. Ms Abbott: The hon. Gentleman has to understand that the problem is multifaceted and needs multifaceted Keith Vaz: We must have a timetable. If we go for just solutions, one of which is more parental responsibility. a voluntary deal, everyone will sign up, but if there are The role of supermarkets, and what and how they no benchmarks and no timetable, this will just drift on market, is part of the problem. I live in east London, for ever. The idea was a very good one, but it lacked which is very varied demographically, and I can go half teeth. a mile to one supermarket that largely serves working class people—at the front and centre it has unhealthy Ms Abbott: That is my exact point. Of course we want foods—and half a mile in the other direction to Waitrose, co-operation with industry, but there must be teeth— which has fruit and wine. Supermarkets are part of the sanctions or at least the possibility of legislation—and, issue. above all, there must be a timetable. Hon. Members may remember the case last year of When it comes to childhood obesity, the most important what The Sun newspaper described as the fattest girl in thing is early intervention. Medical evidence shows the UK. She became so obese that the back wall of her that overweight children have, in proportional terms, house had to be knocked down, and she had to be taken gained most of that weight before they start school, so out of the house with a crane and taken to hospital. The what we do in the very early years is absolutely key. Will point about her is that she had been obese all along, but the Minister tell us whether the Government plan to had been sent to a health farm in America and had lost take action on training health professionals in weight a considerable amount of weight. She and her mother management in accordance with the National Institute were reported as saying that the day she came back after for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines as well as several months in the US on a healthy diet, her mother emphasising the importance of parenting style and somehow did not have any healthy food in and sent out parents’ lifestyle when children’s weight is considered? for fish and chips. With some obese children, it is Interesting research shows us that 70% of boys who almost an issue of co-dependency. If we are to work have overweight fathers are overweight themselves, and effectively with childhood obesity, we have to work with 90% of girls who have overweight mothers are also the family—whatever that family unit constitutes. Will overweight, which is why we stress the importance of the Minister tell us what action her Department is early intervention and working with the family in an taking on marketing and promotions, and how it intends holistic way. We are talking about not any one measure to encourage the reformulation of food products, because but holistic working. Will the Minister tell us whether we need to reduce the high salt and sugar content of she is working with her colleagues in the Department breakfast cereals and other items that are marketed at for Education on these matters? In particular, is she children online? following the example of Finland, where there is a high On the role of local authorities, we should—and I uptake of healthy free school meals, which means that have said this more than once—move public health to children are getting accustomed to what is a proper local authorities. There are challenges to such a move, balanced meal? 353WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 354WH

Furthermore, will the Minister tell us what she will Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) on securing this do about the situation in academies and free schools, debate and pay tribute to him for all the work that he because they are exempt from the nutritional standards has done over the years on the issue of diabetes and the that apply to other schools? They can have machines subsequent work that flows from that in relation to selling fizzy drinks. Is the Minister looking at planning obesity. It has been a pleasure to have his Silver Star van legislation and making public health a criteria in planning, come in to my constituency, and I know that it has gone which would make it much simpler to ban fast food into many other constituencies as well. shops around schools? I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the work We appreciate the energy and enthusiasm of this of his charity not just in this country but in India. It was Minister, but, partly because of the reliance on responsibility a great pleasure earlier this year to go to India for deals, not everyone is swept away with what the Government the first ever Anglo-Indian conference on diabetes. are doing around health, nutrition and obesity. A few Unfortunately, there is a higher prevalence of diabetes months ago, Jamie Oliver said: in the south Asian community. It is one of the subjects “This whole strategy is just worthless, regurgitated, patronising that I will touch on in what will inevitably be a short rubbish.” speech, notwithstanding the fact that this is a large topic. Does the Minister agree that firmer and more comprehensive proposals are needed to encourage active If I do not answer all the questions that have been travel and make the built environment more accessible raised in the debate today, I will reply to hon. Members for young pedestrians and cyclists, and that we need to in writing. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that take action on junk food advertising and promotions of we must wage a war on sugar, fight fat and that we must such foods in stores? all engage in the battle of the bulge. In relation to Ella’s Kitchen, I have seen its excellent report and have asked Finally, the Public Accounts Committee report into to meet the group. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely the management of diabetes services in the NHS recently right about the role that pharmacies can play. I pay full highlighted the need for action from central Government credit to Boots, which is already beginning to do that on reducing the rising numbers developing type 2 diabetes. work, and to Diabetes UK—it is a great charity—which It said: is the chosen charity of Tesco. “The Department of Health and Public Health England should set out the steps they will take to minimise the growth in numbers I want to talk about the great work that Silver Star through well-resourced public health campaigns and action on and Diabetes UK have done with Boots testing people the risk factors for diabetes”. for diabetes, weighing and measuring them and finding I understand that campaigners such as Diabetes UK out their blood sugar levels. Following that, we want to have expressed their disappointment that the Government ensure that there are then referrals to dieticians, nurses have rejected that proposal. Will the Minister tell us and even GPs where that is necessary. We want to make today why the Government chose to reject such sound sure that it all flows and works together. recommendations made by a highly respected Committee I pay full tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for of this House? Does she not agree that the rejection of Torbay (Mr Sanders), who chairs the all-party group on the Committee’s recommendation might lead some diabetes. I will not repeat all the statistics that he gave. observers to think that the Government will listen only He rightly made the point about the difference between to the food industry on obesity? type 1 and type 2 diabetes; type 2 diabetes has a clear It is clear to me, and to all those who have campaigned link to being overweight or obese, and I pay tribute to for years on these issues, that self-regulation and voluntary all the fine work that he has done. targets alone will not work. Diabetes UK, the royal colleges and others are all coming together to call for a The hon. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) more robust approach to the regulation of the food and made a fine point about vending machines in schools. I drink industry. However the Government appear a little completely take the point, if I may say so, that he made reluctant about such a move. about academies. I have already spoken to the Secretary of State for Education on that issue. He knows my Once again, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the views on it, but equally I understand why he wants to Member for Leicester East on securing this important ensure that our academies are free from—if I can put debate. I do not believe that there is any one measure it this way—central control. Nevertheless, I have made that can impact on the matter of childhood obesity and that very valid point. diabetes. I have touched on some of the practical issues, but there are many others, such as culture and ideas of The hon. Gentleman made a compelling comparison parenting. There is a generation of young women whose between our statistics on diabetes and our statistics on notions of parenting are limited. They hear advertisers cancer. We do not flinch—none of us—from talking say, “Give your child this healthy bar and that makes about how we can prevent cancer. We do not flinch you a good mother,”and they do not have the information from talking about the fact that cancer is something to think beyond that. Diabetes is the No. 1 public health that kills many people. Of course, many people live with issue facing us now, and childhood obesity gives a cancer and there are great success stories. Obesity, as premonition of even worse public health problems to everyone attending this debate knows, is effectively a come. I wait with interest to hear what the Minister has killer. If we were absolutely honest about it, if obesity to say about the points that I and some of my colleagues were a disease, Governments of whatever political colour have raised in this interesting debate. would have taken action many, many years ago to tackle the growing problem—no pun intended—of obesity 3.47 pm and being overweight, notably in our children. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health I could use up most of the remainder of my speech (Anna Soubry): It is a pleasure to serve under your effectively debating with my hon. Friend the Member chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate the right hon. for Southport (John Pugh). Having listened to the hon. 355WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes24 APRIL 2013 Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 356WH

[Anna Soubry] I will not repeat the many facts and figures that have quite properly been given in this debate. However, 1.3 million Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington children are obese, which is one in six children. According (Ms Abbott), there is a great danger of this “love-in” to the national child measurement programme, which is extending to my shadow as it were, because I absolutely the programme in England whereby we measure 1 million agree with many of the things that she said in response children—so, if I may say so, we know what we are to my hon. Friend. However, we need to take these talking about—4.1% of boys and 2.9% of girls are points away. morbidly obese. That is serious stuff; 17,400 children who are morbidly obese. Let us talk about something that did not exist when I was young—the concept of snacking. I was positively As has been identified, there is a clear link between told not to eat between meals. If we now look in the real obesity prevalence and deprivation. That is why this is a world at how young people live and at what they feel is health and equalities issue; not just because citizens acceptable, it includes going into the many coffee shops from south Asian backgrounds and indeed, I believe, that exist. I have no problem with coffee shops, but from Afro-Caribbean and African backgrounds have a young people go in and have a large coffee—not a small higher prevalence of type 2 diabetes. We know that one, and we could talk endlessly about portion control; 12.3% of reception children who are overweight or obese I absolutely get that point and think that it is valid—which are from the most deprived backgrounds, as opposed to has syrup in it. It might have marshmallows on top, and 6.8% who are from the least deprived backgrounds. I do then perhaps another little dollop of cream, because it not know why, but we cannot use the word “poor” is just a snack, a treat or elevenses. “And by the way”, anymore. By year 6, 24.3% of overweight and obese they say, “I think I’ll have one of those very nice children are from the most deprived backgrounds, compared muffins.” They do not know how many calories that is. I with 13.7% from the least deprived backgrounds. absolutely agree that they do not understand that, and there was a great outbreak of nodding at the point I perhaps used the wrong language some months ago made by my hon. Friend the Member for Southport. when I talked about the responsibility that falls upon us That is why I absolutely congratulate all those places all as individuals, because we all take responsibility for that have put up on their boards the number of calories our own health and, most importantly, for the health of in different foods. our children. I was talking to the Food and Drink Federation about the responsibility that I believe it, too, The hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke bears, for reasons that I will not go into in too much Newington is right that it is a surprise to people—even detail. However, I put forward the fact that those who to supposedly intelligent, grown-up people such as are overweight and obese as children are more likely to ourselves—when they find out the calorific content of come from the most deprived backgrounds. There was foods that we see and perceive as treats and snacks. much criticism, misreporting and all the rest of it, and, Equally, I want to make it clear that we should never if I may say so, some political cheap shots were aimed at demonise any food. There is nothing wrong with chips, me. However, I hope that those facts speak loudly, and I or burgers; what is important is that it is all good food also hope that everybody takes this away: the reason in moderation. why I feel this way with such a passion is that if someone comes from a poor, deprived background, I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) they have enough problems as a child, and enough bad for his very kind words, and I will only say this in things going against them to prevent them from having relation to the team he supports: come on Nottingham a great start in life, without the burden of being overweight Forest. Moving on to more serious matters, I thank him or obese. and other hon. Members for raising the profile of diabetes and accordingly raising the issue of obesity. It is a difficult subject, because when we start to talk Ms Abbott: The Minister referred to fat children about people’s weight, they take it personally, and rightly being bullied. Does she agree that being fat as a child and understandably so. There are many people who say, can be the beginning of a downward spiral? They feel “Well, it’s not the role of Government to tell people fat and ungainly; they are unwilling to take their clothes what they should or shouldn’t eat”. They are absolutely off for PE, particularly girls, so they take less and less right; it is not my role to tell people what they should or exercise, so they get even fatter. It is a downward spiral. should not eat. However, it is the role of the Government, as stewards of the NHS, to make sure that the NHS budget is spent as responsibly and sensibly as possible. Anna Soubry: Yes, I agree, and I also think that there We know that obesity costs, not just in human terms but is no doubt that there is a link between being overweight in NHS terms; it costs billions of pounds. or obesity and mental health. Which comes first, I do not know, but it is certainly all connected. It costs in human terms as well, and many of us who The call for action on obesity set out the steps that we see children who are overweight or obese are upset and are taking to help people to make healthy choices. That concerned about that, because we know that many of is what we aim to do: provide people with the education those children will not only suffer from health issues—that and knowledge they need, then ensure that they have is one of the things that I learned when I went to see a the opportunities and options to make healthy choices. project in Rotherham, and I will discuss that project in a We have the national child measurement programme; moment—but will be bullied. Many of them are unhappy we have change for life. The hon. Member for Strangford that they cannot, as they perceive it, join in the sport or may like to know that 1 million families have joined physical activity enjoyed by their friends. There is a real change for life, and 684,000 people have downloaded human cost to overweightness and obesity. the “Be food smart” application. 357WH Childhood Obesity and Diabetes 24 APRIL 2013 358WH

There is much more that we can do, and obesity in William McGreanery children is one of my absolute top priorities. I want to know why we have stopped weighing pregnant women. It seems absolutely bonkers. I am looking at the advice 4pm that we give to new mothers on how to feed their babies, Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is an honour to and I am also looking at the role of health visitors, meet under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. midwives and our great NHS workers. As I have said, in William Francis McGreanery, or Billy McGreanery Rotherham there is a wonderful project, which anyone as he was known, was a 41-year-old man who was shot who has an interest in this subject really needs to go and dead by a Grenadier Guard, a member of the 1st Battalion see, because one of the things that is happening there is Grenadier Guards, in Derry city in the early hours of that everything is integrated. The project has been up the morning of Wednesday 15 September 1971. He and running for three to four years, and the NHS, worked in a well-known sports shop in the town and dieticians, GPs, nurses and health visitors all work with quite possibly sold me the first pair of football boots schools, teachers and the local authority—in many that were actually bought for me, as opposed to being ways, it is driven by the local authority. It is a wonderful hand-me-downs from brothers. He was a quiet, settled, experience, where the project workers do not demonise well-engaged man; I know that from many people who food, but look with kindness and care at the causes of were friends and acquaintances of his. problems. They help people, not only with their diet through the information that they provide, but by helping The location of his shooting is variously described as them to exercise. the junction of Eastway, Lonemoor road and Westland street in Derry. Visitors to the city might say that that I have completely run out of time. In no way have I junction is where Creggan meets the Bogside. The soldier completed my speech, and I apologise profusely for who shot him was in a sangar at what was known, in the that. However, I pay credit and tribute to everybody Army’s terms, as Bligh’s lane army base. In effect, these who has signed up for the responsibility deal. There is sangars and other makeshift army occupations were in much more that we can do; I completely accept that. the curtilage of the Essex factory, as it was then known, Nevertheless, I would say that the labelling on packaging in the lower Creggan. is something that we are particularly proud of. We are getting a standardised system that will enable people to There were disturbances over prolonged periods of make healthy choices and take responsibility. I could 14 September in the vicinity of that army base. The talk about schools and the great work that they are Army records, which have emerged as part of the Historical doing, but that will have to be the subject of a letter. Enquiries Team inquiry into Billy McGreanery’s death, show that not only was stone throwing and what, in Philip Davies (in the Chair): Order. We now come to some cases, were described as riots reported, but there the next debate. were also some shooting attacks on that army base. One soldier, Sergeant Martin Carroll, a member of 45 Medium Regiment Royal Artillery, was killed by a sniper. He died later from the injuries he received that day. Another soldier, Sergeant James Black, also of the Royal Artillery, was injured that day as well. I set out that record because I know that if I only focus on what happened in the early hours of 15 September, people might say that I am giving some partial account of the events and the overall circumstances of that time. When Billy McGreanery was shot dead in the early hours of Wednesday 15 September, there were no disturbances pertaining at that time. Indeed, he and a number of friends were walking in the area and had to detour to negotiate a new barricade that had been established and move on. When Billy McGreanery and friends stood at this junction, he then fell to a gunshot from the army sangar at Bligh’s lane. He was taken to Altnagelvin hospital. Army records show that an ambulance was called at 0043 hours, but the Altnagelvin records show that he was admitted, having been transported in a van, at 0045 hours. Billy McGreanery died from his wounds on the operating table in Altnagelvin hospital. The soldier who shot him, who was later named as soldier A in the context of the inquest and various other investigations, maintains that he shot a man who was pointing a rifle at his sangar. The other civilians present at the time, of course, completely disputed that and gave their accounts in the subsequent investigation conducted by the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the police force in Northern Ireland at that time. However, the RUC did not question either soldier A or the other soldier who was with him, soldier B, because in those days the arrangement was that soldiers were only 359WH William McGreanery24 APRIL 2013 William McGreanery 360WH

[Mark Durkan] Given his delicate position this is understandable. I am however satisfied that there is no need to remind him of the danger to interviewed by the Royal Military Police, not by the morale inherent in prosecutions of soldiers or policemen.” RUC. So the RMP special investigation branch interviewed On 23 December the chief constable received a note the two soldiers and took the account that a gunman from the Crown solicitor confirming that there would was shot. Of course, that became the account that was be no charges in relation to the case. briefed to the media and Government spokespersons at Of course, the ruling—the policy—of the Attorney- the time. Of course, Billy McGreanery, a man who lost General for Northern Ireland that soldiers should not his life, was branded as a gunman. That has aggrieved be prosecuted for murder, or for anything carried out in his family for many years: not just that he was robbed of the course of their duty, came in December 1971, only his life, but that he was also robbed of his innocent weeks before January 1972, which, of course, is when name by the subsequent smearing by the Army version Bloody Sunday took place. Many of us believe that, had of accounts, which became the received verdict as far as that material been available for the Saville inquiry to Government and others were concerned. test and cross-examine, the Saville report might not Mr McGreanery was a single man who had no have been as light as it was in its wider observations on descendants, but his nephew, Billy, and his niece, Marjorie MOD responsibility and wider command and policy Roddy, have fought a long campaign, with excellent interests on the day. support from the Pat Finucane Centre, to try to have The family are well satisfied that the HET report the facts and circumstances of his death properly established given to them confirms their uncle’s innocence and and his innocence rightly declared. We have seen this, completely trashes the version on which the Army similarly, with other families, whether the Bloody Sunday relied. They then wanted a proper, due apology, as all families in my constituency or the Hillsborough families other families in a similar situation would want. What in Liverpool, all trying to ensure that the good names of they received from the MOD was a letter in July 2011 their loved ones are properly restored. from General Sir Peter Wall, the Chief of the General Staff: In that context, the family were glad to receive, in June 2010, the report of the Historical Enquiries Team “Dear Mrs Roddy and Mr McGreanery, into the death. This was actually the second time that Thank you for agreeing that the Historical Enquiries Team the HET had looked at the death. The first report was a could share with us their report of last year into the death of your superficial, poor job that immediately was rebuked and uncle, William, in 1971, so as to allow me to consider properly your request for an official apology. In the light of what it says it is essentially withdrawn. The second report by the HET clear to me that such an apology is right and proper. clearly showed that Billy The report sets out the circumstances surrounding the death of “was not involved with any paramilitary organisation, he was not your Uncle and the subsequent investigation. It is evident that the carrying a firearm of any description, and he posed no threat to soldier who shot him was mistaken in his belief that he had a the soldiers at the observation post.” weapon and this error, tragically, resulted in the death of an innocent man. I have no doubt that, despite the passage of time, That is a quote from the HET report, which showed you and your family are still grieving over this loss. I would like to that it had reflected on the discrepancies in the investigation express my sorrow and regret for his death which, in the years at the time, with the Royal Military Police questioning since it occurred, has deprived you of an Uncle’s support and the soldiers and the RUC questioning the civilians. affection. I do not believe that anything I can say will ease the sorrow you It should be said, and clearly understood, that at the feel for what has happened, but I hope that this apology, and the time the local RUC chief superintendent, Frank Lagan, findings of the Historical Enquiries Team, will be of some recommended on 8 November 1971 that the soldier be comfort to you.” prosecuted for murder. That opinion was endorsed at That was of some comfort to the family. However, they RUC headquarters. However, that prosecution never thought that the natural course was that the apology took place. It should be put on the record at this stage would be explicitly endorsed and vocalised on the that, at that time, conversations were going on between Government’s behalf, so the family subsequently wrote representatives of the Ministry of Defence and the then to both the Secretary of State for Defence and the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland, Basil Kelly. In Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. papers discovered in Government archives at Kew by the Pat Finucane Centre is a minute signed by J. M. Parkin, On the family’s behalf, the Pat Finucane Centre received head of C2 at MOD, who refers to his conversation a rather bizarre letter from the then Secretary of State with the Attorney-General: for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), who is currently the Secretary “The Attorney-General told me that he had before him of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs: recommendations from the police that a soldier should be tried for manslaughter arising out of the death of Mrs Sarah Worthington “Thank you for your letter of 20 July 2012 regarding the case in Belfast and that another should be tried for the murder of a of Mr William McGreanery. You originally wrote to me and the man named McGreanery in Londonderry. His provisional view Defence Secretary in February last year and following receipt of was that no action was called for in the Belfast case and that the report by the Historical Enquiries Team, General Sir Peter manslaughter at most would be appropriate in the Londonderry Wall, Chief of the General Staff at the Ministry of Defence incident. Indeed, he felt that the latter probably called for no provided an official apology to Mrs Roddy and Mr McGreanery charge at all. He promised to advise us if he felt that action in on 14 July 2011. either case was called for. I have no doubt that the Attorney Please let me explain briefly the process involved when a letter, General is doing all within his power to protect the security forces such as yours of February 2011, is received by more than one against criminal proceedings in respect of actions on duty. He Government department. The Department with the lead responsibility must, however, preserve an impartial approach and is worried will respond on behalf of the Government and if, as in this case, about the possibility of private criminal proceedings should he the response includes an official apology then this is on behalf of fail to act in cases where inactivity could hardly be justified. the Government. One of the key aspects of this type of communication 361WH William McGreanery24 APRIL 2013 William McGreanery 362WH is that it is private. If any individual wishes to make it public, as I death. Barricades had been erected, nail bombs and understand Mrs Roddy and Mr McGreanery did, that is their petrol bombs had been thrown, and rioting had broken right; however the Government will not do so. It is for this reason out. that such private Ministerial correspondence is not placed in any official parliamentary records. During the afternoon before Mr McGreanery’s death, I am pleased that the report from the Historical Enquiries as the hon. Gentleman rightly stated, Sergeant Carroll Team and the subsequent apology has provided some closure to was shot and killed in Londonderry by a terrorist the family of Mr McGreanery and I hope that my confirmation sniper. He was actually shot and killed in Eastway that the apology was officially on behalf of the Government is gardens, just by the Bligh’s lane observation post, which also of some comfort to them. I know that the grief and sorrow of he had just left. There is no doubt about that. losing someone close, particularly in such circumstances, does not diminish.” The HET report goes on to say that, some eight hours later, at midnight on 14/15 September, Mr McGreanery The main reason why we have had to call an and others were walking around Londonderry and Adjournment debate today is to ensure that we give the approached the same Army observation post. The group Government, in the form of the Minister, an opportunity moved forward and a single shot was fired by a soldier. to vocalise that apology on the parliamentary record, Mr McGreanery was wounded and later died in hospital. just as other families have received apologies on the I do not think the facts are in contention. parliamentary record. The soldier who opened fire said that he thought I hope that the Minister, in addressing those points, Mr McGreanery was aiming a rifle at the observation will consider whether the MOD is reviewing the policy post, and he made a split-second decision to open fire. I of simply issuing apologies to families by letter from think we can all now accept that that was an error. That someone of rank in the MOD—and they seem to be of is what the HET report states, and I understand that the lower and lower rank now—and the Government treating young soldier involved—he was young at the time—has them as private communications. That does not seem to stated that he thinks it was an error, too. He regrets the be a satisfactory process. There will be more such cases. shooting, given what he has now discovered. Indeed, since I secured this debate I have been contacted The pathologist who carried out the post-mortem by a family who lost a loved one to shots fired by the said that Mr McGreanery’s wounds had been caused by Parachute Regiment on the Shankill road in September the bullet passing through his raised forearm, through 1972. The family of Richie McKinney, too, have always his chest and exiting his back: contested the Army version of events—that the soldiers fired at two gunmen—and they are quite clear that their “the forearm must have been flexed at the elbow and held up in loved one was an innocent man, not a gunman. They front of the chest”. want to know that, when they receive their HET report, No one knows why his arm was in that position. The they will not have to go around begging, busking and HET does not believe he was pointing a rifle at the time. petitioning MPs and other people so that they can get a Forensic swabs show that he had not fired a weapon, proper apology on the record in parliamentary terms. I and I think we accept that he did not have a weapon. suggest that the Minister ask the MOD to consider that, The local RUC commander at the time believed, as when families receive HET reports in future and when the hon. Gentleman said, that the soldier had acted apologies are issued on the basis of those HET reports, unlawfully. A file was sent to the chief Crown prosecutor they should be marked by a written ministerial statement recommending that the soldier be tried for murder. recording that fact. That was passed to the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland, but he took a different view, believing that the 4.16 pm soldier was acting in the course of his duty and that it was difficult to see how the element of malice, “express The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew or implied,” necessary to constitute murder could be Robathan): The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) inferred from his actions. He thought that the soldier has called this debate to raise issues with my Department’s could have been negligent but that consideration would response to the HET on the tragic death of William have to be given to whether the negligence was “reckless” McGreanery. and amounted to manslaughter. In the event, no action As the hon. Gentleman has just stated, the HET was was taken against the soldier. set up as an independent team within the Police Service When the MOD received a request from the family of Northern Ireland to help bring closure to all families of Mr McGreanery for an apology for his death, my who lost relations and friends during the troubles and Department asked for a copy of the HET report into to bring some measure of resolution to the past. My his death so that the request could be properly considered. Department strongly supports the work of the HET That is relevant to what the hon. Gentleman said. It is and fully co-operates with its requests for information up to the family to give us the report; we do not get to and liaison with witnesses. When HET reports have see it. Similarly, when the Chief of the General Staff been made available to us, following permission from wrote to the family, that was private correspondence as the family of the deceased, we have found them to be as far as we were concerned. It is up to the family to reveal detailed and comprehensive accounts as are now possible it. However, I will come to that later. considering the passage of time. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is I will not go over all the ground that the hon. Gentleman only right, if we are asked to apologise for the actions has just covered, but it is important to remember the that led to somebody’s death, that we should be able to facts, which are that Mr McGreanery died on 15 September see the results. We do not see them until we get the HET 1971, 41 and a half years ago. The HET report states report. When we received the report, we read it carefully that there had been a number of shootings in Londonderry and came to the conclusion that, in such circumstances, in the days and nights leading up to Mr McGreanery’s an apology was appropriate, because it was clear that 363WH William McGreanery24 APRIL 2013 William McGreanery 364WH

[Mr Andrew Robathan] Mark Durkan: I did not use those particular words, although I can see why they would spring to the Minister’s the soldier involved was mistaken when he thought that mind and the minds of many people. He referred to the Mr McGreanery posed such a serious threat that it was Shawcross exercise, in which Ministers speak to the necessary to open fire. That is absolutely accepted. Attorney-General. This was an officer of the MOD. The minute of the meeting is supplemented by a diary Having carefully considered the circumstances of the entry, which goes into more detail about the exchange death, the Chief of the General Staff—he is the head between the Attorney-General and the MOD representative of the Army, which is not a lowly rank, as the hon. and appears to establish a working presumption at the Gentleman implied—wrote to the family with an apology time that any killing by a soldier acting in the course of on 14 July 2011. In those cases in which the Ministry of duty would not result in a murder charge. That happened Defence has apologised for a death—there have been in the crucial weeks before Bloody Sunday. five, not including apologies made by the Prime Minister in person for the Bloody Sunday killings—the practice has been either for the Chief of the General Staff or a Mr Robathan: I am not in a position to either negate Minister to write, and the apology is given by either, on or agree with the hon. Gentleman. If I may say so, there behalf of the Government as a whole. is a difference between those who act in good faith in the course of duty and those who might have acted I understand that Mr McGreanery’s family has accepted in bad faith. I think that we can agree about that. The the apology but wanted one on behalf of the Government, question is malice. As far as I am aware, there is recorded in parliamentary records. On behalf of the certainly no policy that nobody should be prosecuted. Government, I am happy to repeat that apology. As for As the hon. Gentleman will know, I spent many years in the request that it be made publicly, as I have explained, the Army, and I know of many cases in which people it is normally left to the family to decide whether they were prosecuted, including cases in Northern Ireland in wish to publicise it. Some will wish to do so, but some which people who had behaved maliciously were rightly will not. As a result of these proceedings, the apology prosecuted for murder. I agree with that, and I think given to Mr McGreanery’s family is now on the that the MOD of the time would have agreed with it as parliamentary record. As we know that that is the well. family’s wish, I am happy that it should be so. Some may believe that we should hold a fresh I am also aware of press reports—the hon. Gentleman investigation into the circumstances surrounding referred to them—about recently released historical Mr McGreanery’s death. Whether that happens is a documents that have been interpreted as suggesting that matter for the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which at the time of Mr McGreanery’s death, there was a would need to consider whether there was any new deliberate policy of not prosecuting soldiers for deaths evidence in the case. If that were to happen, my Department that occurred while they were on duty, and that there would co-operate with such investigations. Just as was some cosy relationship with the Attorney-General importantly, we would stand by our obligation to support at the time to facilitate that. It is not and never was up fully the soldier who, in this case, found himself having to the MOD to decide whether soldiers should face to account for actions that took place in the course of criminal charges as a result of opening fire in the course his duties some 40 years ago. of their duties. Mark Durkan: To take the Minister back to the point It is, however, important that those contemplating about how such cases are handled in future—there will such decisions are provided with information relevant be more—he referred to the fact that the Historical to the incident under consideration. The fact that the Enquiries Team does not share the reports with the Attorney-General of the day was prepared to consider MOD; it is up to the family to do so. If the family share representations from the Army about murder cases is a report and receive an apology, and if they ask for that surely entirely reasonable. I am not a lawyer, I am glad apology to be in the parliamentary record, will the to say, but it seems entirely sensible that he would want MOD make it future policy to do so by way of a written to see as much information as he could to enable him to ministerial statement? consider properly the public interest surrounding those cases, just as we have the well-established Shawcross Mr Robathan: I do not say that there will necessarily exercise, in which ministerial views are sought on the be a written ministerial statement. If the family wishes public interest before a decision is made on prosecution it to be published, we will happily facilitate that, as it is in appropriate cases. the right thing to do. Although I know that the hon. Gentleman feels that This was a tragedy. It was highly regrettable. Even this was some sort of cosy stitch-up—I think I have got 41 and a half years later, I can see that. A young soldier that right—it is different from some agreement or policy —I suspect very frightened—behaved in error, but we that the military had a veto on prosecutions of soldiers, do not think with malice, and it was certainly not which would have been illegal and for which there is no thought so at the time. It was highly regrettable, and I evidence. repeat the apology on behalf of the Government. 365WH 24 APRIL 2013 BBC Trust 366WH

BBC Trust and Sport outlining his concerns. It was a significant breach of trust by the BBC. Many questions remain that need to be looked into. 4.26 pm Each of the issues that I have listed would on its own Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): It is a pleasure have presented painful difficulties for the BBC, but the to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I cannot management’s inept response to Savile and “Newsnight”, help thinking that it is somehow appropriate that you which was defensive, secretive, cynical and in some should be chairing this debate. I begin by declaring cases downright murky, made life even worse for the myself a lifelong fan of the BBC and its programmes. It corporation and its staff. The damage to audience and has some of the most brilliant and creative people in the public trust in the BBC was compounded by the woeful world. I could go through a lengthy list of the world-class lack of active leadership by the BBC Trust, which is programmes that I and many others have enjoyed over meant to be the guardian of the interests of licence fee the years. It is the same with news and current affairs. payers. When it should have been leading the way in The BBC has many talented, thoughtful and—let us getting to the truth and in holding the BBC’s management not forget—brave journalists. to account, the trust seems to have interpreted its role as As an aside, one BBC news journalist recently said to being to defend aggressively the management and to do me that they should try to infiltrate a totalitarian regime the minimum necessary to fend off pressure, and wait that has just built a new monument to its vanity. He was for the storm to pass. not talking about North Korea; he was talking about Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I pay tribute BBC management. I want to be clear that what I have to to my hon. Friend for the way in which he is leading the say is not about the people who staff the BBC; it is debate on this important subject. Does he agree that the specifically about the people who run the BBC at corporate BBC Trust should be driving much greater transparency level and how the trust and the executive work, or do within the BBC to drive better efficiencies and value for not work. I have rarely encountered such poor management money for the licence fee payer? He might well recall a at any level in any organisation, which is why I argue ten-minute rule Bill, in which I sought to force the BBC that the role of the BBC Trust is so crucial. to publish every invoice in excess of £500. This morning, When he first became chairman of the BBC Trust in strangely, the chairman of the BBC Trust felt that to do 2011, Lord Patten said that he regarded the BBC as “a so would undermine some of the special arrangements moral force” in this country. I agree, to the extent that and deals with providers of BBC services. Does my hon. the BBC plays an enormously significant cultural role Friend agree that, should the BBC publish every invoice and, with its high ideals, it should seek to be a model for in excess of £500, it would be far more open to competition the rest of the public sector. More recently, when addressing for its contracts, driving down their price and providing a meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on the more value for money for the licence fee payer? BBC, Lord Patten declared that he did not want the period leading up to the BBC licence fee settlement in Mr Wilson: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for 2016 to be leading the way in holding the BBC to account, in “bogged down by nerdy arguments about governance”. particular for its expenditure. If local authorities and Departments can account for everything over £500, I requested this debate because I respectfully disagree there is absolutely no reason why the BBC should not with Lord Patten that the governance of the BBC is a do exactly the same. second-order issue, of interest only to nerds. The BBC’s reputation has taken a number of severe hits over the Last autumn, the BBC instead suffered a severe loss past year, including for its over-lavish pay and perks for of public trust and its problems were allowed to spiral its swelled ranks of management, the tax arrangements out of control. While public trust in the BBC appears to of its employees, the spectacularly botched “Newsnight” have recovered somewhat in the months since, that is investigation into child abuse allegations in north Wales surely a reflection of the depth of the good will towards and, perhaps above all, its response to mounting evidence Auntie among the British public, and it should not be a of decades of sexual abuse and paedophilia by its cause for complacency.Unless the BBC has high standards long-time former employee, the late Jimmy Savile. I of governance, with active leadership and oversight by understand that further dreadful news about the waste its governing body, the chances are that it will be hit by of licence fee payers’ money is forthcoming in the not more scandals, and that the cumulative effect on its too distant future. reputation could be disastrous. Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): I congratulate my Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate hon. Friend on securing the debate and on leading on the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. such matters. As chairman of the all-party BBC group, I share his enthusiasm for the BBC and its importance. I take an interest in the governance of the BBC. He Will he add to his list of criticisms, or to his questions at mentioned the vile antics of Jimmy Savile, which affected any rate, that the trust ought to look at the practice used several public sector organisations. The BBC, to its in the recent visit to North Korea, because it appeared credit, set up two reviews to look at the effect in its to put at risk the integrity of academic visits to North organisation. It would be unfair to accuse the BBC of Korea and similar countries not only by the LSE but by being the only organisation to be affected by Savile’s other universities. antics, and it has done more than some other public sector organisations affected by his behaviour. Mr Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to make that important point. I understand that Mr Wilson: I was going to come on to that point the father of one of the young people has written to all but, as my hon. Friend has made it, I agree that the members of the Select Committee on Culture, Media BBC was not the only organisation affected by Jimmy 367WH BBC Trust24 APRIL 2013 BBC Trust 368WH

[Mr Rob Wilson] but it is astounding to think that the BBC’s culture, systems and management could have allowed that to Savile; there were problems in the NHS, Broadmoor happen, despite the wreckage caused to the lives of so and other places. The BBC reacted, but only when it many young people. It is still rather sickening to reflect was under enormous pressure to do so; it was dragged on. The BBC would have emerged with far greater kicking and screaming to the point at which it would credit had it confronted the mounting allegations against undertake reviews. I was in contact with the BBC from Savile head-on. Instead, it kept them quiet for as long as the very start, and I can tell the Chamber as a fact that it possibly could, before finally being publicly confronted it did not want to indulge in any form of review at that and indeed engulfed by the truth. Years of rottenness time. It got there in the end, but it should have got there tumbled into full view of the public. much earlier, which is one of the main criticisms of the The issue goes right to the top of the BBC at the time. management at the time. In particular, the Pollard report concluded that it had We need the BBC Trust to ensure that the BBC is no reason to disbelieve the story of then director-general open and transparent, accountable to the public and Mark Thompson that he knew nothing about the sexual responsible in its use of public money. So far, in the abuse allegations against Savile or about the nature of post-Savile and McAlpine era, the signs are not encouraging. the “Newsnight” investigation until after he left the I want to focus on three matters of concern. BBC. That is frankly implausible. The BBC’s former First, given the widespread public anger in recent head of news and current head of radio, Helen Boaden, years about lavish spending at the BBC, it is unacceptable told the Pollard inquiry in a legal letter that she had that the BBC continues to refuse to publish the costs of informed Mark Thompson in December 2011 about the the Pollard review and related post-Savile inquiries. nature of the allegations against Savile. Shockingly, the According to some estimates, they may add up to more evidence of the BBC’s then most senior female executive than the Leveson inquiry, which was a public inquiry on on the issue was given zero weight and was not even a vastly larger scale that lasted for almost a year rather mentioned in the Pollard report. Instead, we were asked than a couple of months at best. However, what is really to believe that when Mark Thompson was sufficiently inexplicable is that the BBC Trust has refused to challenge worried to call the head of BBC News to discuss the the corporation’s management to publish that information. “Newsnight” investigation into Savile, he somehow, I understand that Lord Laird wrote to Lord Patten last miraculously, never gained any indication of what the month seeking confirmation of how much the Pollard investigation was about. review will cost and that Lord Patten refused to provide Thompson maintains his denials of knowing anything or even find out the information. When Lord Laird about the Savile allegation, despite the fact that they wrote a further letter, Lord Patten did not respond, and were drawn to his office’s attention on at least 10 other has not yet done so as far as I know. Why should licence occasions before he left the BBC in 2012. He even fee payers remain in the dark about the amount of authorised the threat of a libel action to The Sunday money spent in their name? Times. Leaders should be accountable for their own More seriously, the Pollard report was full of holes performance and for that of their organisations. It is from the day it was published. Lord Patten was keen to not in the interests of the BBC or any other public jump on the fact that the Pollard report exonerated the sector organisation for a culture to emerge in which BBC management on the most serious charge, that of leaders may turn a blind eye to problems and evade suppressing a “Newsnight” investigation into Savile to their responsibilities with impunity. protect the corporate interests of the BBC, but the I hope that the Select Committee on Culture, Media evidence compiled by Pollard does not in any way and Sport will make good its promise to call Helen justify a clean bill of health. There is still no explanation Boaden and Mark Thompson before it to clear the of why deputy news chief Steve Mitchell took the matter up once and for all. MPs should not have to deal “Newsnight” Savile investigation off the managed risk with such issues. Frankly, an active BBC Trust and an list of potentially controversial stories in November active chairman would have made it their business to 2011, before it was quietly dropped by the then editor. get to the bottom of the matter without delay. Instead, Pollard, with no power to question witnesses under having spent millions of pounds of public money on oath, completely failed to get a proper account of the inquiries, Lord Patten and the trust seem content to conversations between the deputy head of news and pass lingering questions about failures in the BBC’s the editor of “Newsnight” before what we are told was management into the hands of its executive. At the very the editor’s personal decision to axe the Savile exposé. least, that shows an amazing lack of curiosity by Lord Pollard was particularly scathing about Mitchell’s convenient Patten to get at the truth. multiple lapses of memory during the inquiry, as well as The BBC Trust’s chief response to the Savile and several other aspects of Mitchell’s conduct, yet neither McAlpine scandals seems to have been to spend hundreds Mitchell nor anyone else at the BBC has been fired as a of thousands of pounds of public money on getting rid result of one of the most damaging failures in its of its previous choice of director-general, almost via history. constructive dismissal, and then parachuting in another However, the most important unresolved issue, and one with no open competition or advertisement. The new the one that the BBC needs to learn lessons from, is director-general in turn has parachuted several cronies whether—and if so, why—the BBC’s most senior into lavishly paid top jobs with no open appointment management chose to ignore the multiple warnings they process. Instead of making appointments at the top received about Savile. Let us not forget that Savile was of the BBC more open and more meritocratic, they probably the country’s most prolific paedophile ever are now, ironically, less open than the procedures at discovered, and yet he worked seemingly unfettered at the Bank of England. That is completely and utterly the BBC for decades. The BBC is not the only culprit, unacceptable. 369WH BBC Trust24 APRIL 2013 BBC Trust 370WH

Of course, I wish Lord Hall all the best in his difficult 4.46 pm work, but the manner of his appointment, overseen by the BBC Trust, marks a step backwards, not forwards. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, As I understand it, the perception among BBC journalists Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is an honour is that the changes at the BBC since Savile, which was a and a privilege to appear under your chairmanship, Mr gross failure of management, have entirely suited the Davies. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Reading management rather than the staff. East (Mr Wilson) for calling this debate. I sit between two of the BBC’s strongest advocates in Parliament. I I have been less than impressed by the performance echo my hon. Friend’s opening remarks that the BBC is of the BBC’s other regulator, Ofcom. After the glaring a fantastic institution, but that does not mean that it is flaws in the “Newsnight” report on child sex abuse above reproach or criticism. allegations in north Wales became immediately obvious, I wrote to Ofcom asking it to investigate potentially With your indulgence, Mr Davies, I will dwell on my serious breaches of the broadcasting code, and a related hon. Friend’s work in this area. He has positioned incident involving some fairly crass behaviour on ITV’s himself as a critical friend of the BBC. He is keen to “This Morning”programme. Ofcom replied in November look at where it has made errors, and keen to make 2012 announcing that it had opened an investigation constructive proposals to improve its governance. I into both programmes. Nearly six months later, we are would expect nothing less from him. I got to know him none the wiser as to its conclusions or even the state of when he was Parliamentary Private Secretary to the its investigation. Again, instead of effective regulation then Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and oversight, it looks as though Ofcom is happy for my right hon. Friend the Member for South West that issue to remain in the long grass. Surrey (Mr Hunt), but his reputation preceded him as having made the highest number of runs for South I will conclude by asking a number of questions of Moreton cricket club in my constituency, a record that the Minister. Does he agree with Lord Patten that stood for something like 30 years. governance is somehow a second-order issue? Does he think it is important that the BBC Trust is active, and a At the risk of repeating myself, the BBC is a globally proactive guardian of licence fee payers’ interests? What recognised and admired institution. It is a hugely respected assessment have the Government made of the current brand around the world. The previous UN Secretary- BBC Trust’s performance during the Savile and McAlpine General, Kofi Annan, described the BBC World Service scandals and more broadly? Does it have his full confidence? as Does he agree with the right hon. Member for Dulwich “perhaps Britain’s greatest gift to the world this century.” and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) that the BBC BBC programmes are sold all round the world, whether Trust has the programmes themselves or the format. It is important “not yet been a strong enough or assertive enough voice on behalf to keep that in mind during this debate. of the licence-fee payer”? The second point I want to make in setting the Above all, there are two key questions for the context and before turning to the specific issues that my Government to consider. In the long term, is the trusteeship hon. Friend raised is that one reason for the BBC’s model right for oversight and regulation of the BBC? success is its independence. Although we have our criticisms More immediately, given the reputational damage the of it, no one in the House would want it to become BBC has suffered over the past year, does the Minister subject to political control, which is why many processes have confidence in the current trustees and are they the are being put in place to ensure that politicians do not right people to lead the BBC into the next licence fee interfere, but perversely that produces an element of settlement and beyond? frustration when things go wrong and it is difficult to influence decisions when people in this House perceive Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does my them going wrong. hon. Friend agree that the worrying pattern, which we have seen since the death of Savile, of something that The BBC is independent, but that does not mean that has been happening for many years—20 or 30 years—is it is not accountable for its actions. Because of the typical of the wrong approach that such matters are too unique way it is funded and owned, the BBC must be secret to get out? accountable. It must be accountable to licence fee payers, and that is why this debate is so important. The BBC Trust represents licence fee payers’ interests, and holds Mr Wilson: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. the BBC’s executive to account. Something has clearly been wrong and damaging about the culture and practices in the BBC over a long period. Let us remind ourselves of the trust’s duties. They are It just so happens that Savile’s death and what he got up enshrined in the charter, and explicitly include representing to has cast a light on something that many people did licence fee payers, ensuring the independence of the not understand or know about. We must take action BBC, and assessing the views of licence fee payers. We now that we know what happened and what was wrong believe that those principles, alongside the others set in the BBC. I hope that the BBC and the trust will learn out in the charter and agreement, provide a strong from that. framework for the trust to ensure accountability to My final question for the Minister is: does he think licence fee payers. that there are enough people with media and broadcasting Parliament should also have an overview of a public experience in the current BBC Trust? I have been and institution as important as the BBC, so it goes without remain at heart a huge fan of the BBC, but as it enters saying that it has the right to ask questions and to hold the brave new world of online and mobile communications, debates—never more so, perhaps, than following the surely it is important to ensure that the corporation is recent events that my hon. Friend referred to. It is clear, properly managed? following those events, that the BBC Trust must rebuild 371WH BBC Trust24 APRIL 2013 BBC Trust 372WH

[Mr Edward Vaizey] BBC deals with a range of commercial partners that might not wish to see the commercial terms of their not only the public’s trust in the BBC, but trust in the relationship with the BBC published. I can tell, just by BBC Trust itself. I welcome the steps that are being making that brief remark, that I have provoked my hon. taken to achieve that. Friend into making an intervention. I welcome the appointment of a new director-general Alun Cairns: I am grateful to the Minister for giving of the BBC, Tony Hall, and I use this opportunity to way and for the way in which he is responding to the thank Tim Davie—now the chief executive officer of debate. Does he recall that the same defence was used BBC Worldwide—for his role as acting director-general by local authorities about their contractual organisations? of the BBC. When Tim Davie took on that acting role, The world has not fallen in since they have published all he was very conscious of the need to engage not only their invoices. with politicians and the licence fee payer, but with the people who worked at the BBC. We should not forget, Mr Vaizey: That intervention was carefully staged for as my hon. Friend made clear, that the criticisms two reasons. First, it allows me to congratulate my hon. surrounding the BBC in recent weeks and months are Friend on his magnificent performance at the marathon not directed at the vast majority of people who do a on Sunday. Secondly, I take his point and I was going to fantastic job for the BBC, and the impact on their say that the debate will continue, and it is right that morale was significant. colleagues in the House raise those issues and press the There is still work to do, and I assure my hon. Friend BBC on them. I do not necessarily believe that the that no one is complacent. We need to see through the matter is closed, but the time for our debate is running remaining BBC inquiries. Let us not forget that we have short, and I want to address the specific questions that yet to conclude the Dame Janet Smith review, which has my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East asked. contacted 450 people, and has had 275 telephone I do not believe that Lord Patten thinks that governance conversations and 80 face-to-face meetings with witnesses. is somehow a second-order issue. He is an experienced, The BBC is also carrying out two internal reviews on former politician, who can sometimes have a particular respect at work and on child protection and whistleblowing turn of phrase, but I have no doubt at all that he took procedures. Both are expected to report to the BBC on the job with serious intent. He intends to run the Trust shortly. BBC Trust—and has done so—in a serious manner, but We have had the Pollard review, and my hon. Friend I think that he wants to make sure, as we run up to raised points about the cost of that. As I understand it, charter review, that we focus on important issues. the cost is £2.2 million, which has been publicly stated, It is an important point to make that we are gearing and in May, the BBC will provide a breakdown of how up for charter review. The BBC’s charter runs out at the and where that money was spent. It is also the case that end of 2016. The previous Government conducted a apart from redactions required to avoid legal action, if I long, three-year process of charter review. Whether that can put it that way, all the evidence that was supplied to is necessary in this instant, again, is a matter for the Pollard review has been published. I am sure that contemplation and debate. What is important about the people will still have their views on the review’s conclusions, charter review is that those important issues can now be but those are the facts as they stand. subject to part of a formal procedure. I am certain that my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East, who has My hon. Friend raised a number of other issues. made himself a strong voice in Parliament, putting In terms of the BBC Trust’s role as the guardian of forward issues of reform for the BBC, will play an the licence fee revenue, its strategic functions include important role. I, and the Government, want the charter setting the strategic direction of the BBC and assessing review to be a public process, engaging as many people the performance of BBC services. BBC Trust oversight as possible. of the BBC, however, does not extend to interference in editorial decision making and involvement in operational The trust has acted as a guardian of licence fee management. It is the regulator of the BBC, but it does payers’ interests. That is central to its very being. The not run the BBC on a day-to-day basis. trust’s oversight, as I said earlier, does not extend to interference in editorial decision making, but that does My hon. Friend discussed value for money, which is not mean, concerning recent events, that we cannot important. Let us not forget that one of the first decisions acknowledge that lessons need to be learnt, not only of this Government was to freeze the licence fee until from the events themselves, but, as we made clear at the the end of the charter. It was a good decision, not only time, from the pace at which they were addressed. The to provide value for the licence fee payer, but to force Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport made it the BBC to address some of the costs that it could remove clear that she felt the trust could have acted quicker with from its organisation. It has done that through the the initial inquiries. It is also now clear—the Secretary “Delivering Quality First”strategy, which has made savings of State again made it clear—that she felt that once the of £700 million. It has reduced the amounts paid to senior trust had understood the seriousness of the issues that managers, as well as the number of senior managers. it was facing, it began to handle the process well. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan My hon. Friend asked whether the trusteeship model (Alun Cairns) mentioned the issue of publishing invoices. is the right one for oversight and regulation of the BBC. As I understand it, the BBC is trying to make progress We are content with the model at the moment, but there on that point. Last year, the previous director-general, is no doubt at all that people will have views as we Mark Thompson said that the BBC would release details undertake charter review. of spending by category, which will provide a coherent and transparent picture of expenditure. However, the Mr Wilson: Is the Minister saying that the Government BBC believes that publishing individual invoices would are open to changes in the existing model as part of the cause commercial difficulties. Let us not forget that the charter review? 373WH BBC Trust24 APRIL 2013 BBC Trust 374WH

Mr Vaizey: The Government are open to hearing the the process for appointing trustees is open and transparent, views of all stakeholders who have expertise and an which is important. The BBC has been through a tortuous interest in the BBC and its future. It seems a matter of period in the past few months. My hon. Friend has common sense that people will offer up improvements responded in an entirely appropriate way, by holding it or even potential models. We do not want to change the to account, by asking pertinent questions, and most BBC Trust model, but we want to have an open debate importantly, by offering constructive proposals for reform. about issues to do with the BBC as we move towards The Government are always open to ideas, and a process charter review. It is important to say that we are not will get under way in terms of charter review. excluding any specific issue. Finally, I have full confidence in the chairman of the 5pm BBC Trust and in the existing trustees. Again, by and Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order large, they are appointed by an independent process, but No. 10(13)).

53WS Written Ministerial Statements24 APRIL 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

The Government are confirming that they have approved Written Ministerial a guarantee for up to £75 million to Drax Finance Ltd for the partial conversion of a coal-fired power station Statements to biomass. UK Guarantees was launched in response to constraints Wednesday 24 April 2013 in the long-term debt markets by providing a sovereign- backed guarantee to help infrastructure projects raise BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS debt finance. In exchange for a guarantee a fee will be charged to the borrower, determined by the nature of Consumer Alternative Dispute Resolution the guarantee and the risks inherent in the project. Guarantees for up to £40 billion in aggregate can be offered under the initiative. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, The Government will report to Parliament on the Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): The UK has opted financial assistance given in line with the requirements in to the proposal for a directive of the European set out in the Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Act 2012. Parliament and of the Council on alternative dispute resolution for consumer disputes and amending regulation (EC) No 2006/2004 and directive 2009/22/EC (directive on consumer ADR). EDUCATION The directive contains a provision which imposes a civil judicial co-operation obligation and therefore triggers the UK’s Justice and Home Affairs opt-in protocol. The Children and Families Bill Committee (Ministerial proposal meets the criteria set out in the coalition Clarification) agreement with regard to EU justice and home affairs measures. In particular, the Government consider that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education it is in the UK’s interest to opt in to the proposal (Mr Edward Timpson): During the Children and Families because of the greater consumer protection it will bring. Bill Committee on 16 April I said in the debate on the Alternative dispute resolution (ADR) refers to schemes hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West’s that are available to help complainants resolve their (Mrs Hodgson) new clause 20 that: disputes outside court. The proposal will oblige member “The Ministry of Justice and Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals states to ensure that ADR schemes meeting certain, Service already publish information on the number of appeals specified quality standards are available for any contractual registered, the outcomes, the type of special educational need to dispute between a consumer and a business, should which the appeals relate, the number of appeals registered against both parties wish to use ADR. The objective of the each local authority, and other information, including judicial proposal is to build consumer confidence in the internal costs, venue costs, administration costs, the cost to a local authority market, an aim which is aligned with the UK’s growth defending a tribunal case and so on”. agenda. The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) does publish statistics The provision which triggers the opt-in protocol requires on the appeals to the first-tier tribunal (special educational time limits for bringing claims to court to be extended if needs and disability) on its website but it does not an ADR process is ongoing. Most ADR procedures are include information about costs. completed well within existing time limits, but this The MOJ publishes for each quarter on its website provision will ensure a consumer is not disadvantaged statistics on the work of the tribunals within Her Majesty’s in the event that a time limit is due to expire while an Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCS). The publication ADR process is ongoing. for the second quarter (July to September) which is The European Parliament and the Council have now usually published in January, contains annual statistics voted in favour of the proposal, which will be adopted for the first-tier tribunal (SEND), covering September in the coming weeks. The UK will then have two years to August of the previous academic year. in which to implement the legislation. The tables for SEN appeals cover the number of appeals by type of appeal, by the type of SEN, the decisions by type of SEN, the outcomes (whether they TREASURY were decided, withdrawn or conceded) the outcomes by Cash Ratio Deposit Scheme type of SEN, the breakdown of the child’s ethnic origin and the legal representation for parents and local authorities at hearings (although the figures for the last two years The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): are not available). Similar information is published on The Treasury has today published a summary of disability discrimination claims the tribunal receives. consultation responses in relation to the review of the Figures on the number of SEN appeals registered by cash ratio deposit scheme, copies of which are available local authority, both raw numbers and per 10,000 of on the HMT website and have been deposited in the the school population, are also published. The first-tier Libraries of both Houses. tribunal (SEND) section of the MOJ’s website (http:// www.justice.gov.uk/tribunals/send) has also now started UK Guarantee Scheme providing a link to the quarterly statistics. Information about costs is not published. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): I apologise for inadvertently misleading the Committee UK Guarantees was announced in July 2012 with enabling and I have written to Committee members in addition legislation, the Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) to this statement. A copy of that letter has been placed Act 2012, receiving Royal Assent on 31 October 2012. in the Libraries of both Houses. 55WS Written Ministerial Statements24 APRIL 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE HEALTH

Regulation of Cosmetic Interventions Afghanistan Progress Report (March 2013)

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth (Dr Daniel Poulter): Today the review of the regulation Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to inform the House of cosmetic interventions has been published. I wish to that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together express my thanks to Sir Bruce Keogh, the chairman, with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for and the other members of the review body for their International Development, is today publishing the 24th report. progress report on developments in Afghanistan since The Poly Implant Prothése (PIP) breast implant scandal November 2010. highlighted the unacceptably poor quality of clinical Foreign Office Senior Minister of State Baroness practice in parts of the cosmetic surgery industry, as Warsi made her second visit to Afghanistan on 4-6 March. well as with other cosmetic interventions, including Key themes of the visit were emphasising the UK’s concerns about clinical safety and regulation. Sir Bruce enduring commitment to Afghanistan and protecting Keogh, the NHS medical director, was asked in January the gains in human rights, particularly women’s rights, 2012 by the then Secretary of State, my right hon. Afghanistan has seen since the fall of the Taleban. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), to carry out a review of the regulation of In a speech on 4 March the International Development cosmetic interventions. The review’s scope was broad, Secretary pledged to step up UK support for women covering both surgical (e.g. breast implants) and non-surgical and girls in the world’s poorest countries. This pledge (e.g. “botox” injections) cosmetic interventions. included a commitment to making tackling violence against women and girls in Afghanistan a priority in the This review highlights how the rapid growth of the next DFID country plan. cosmetic interventions sector has outstripped the current legal framework, exposing people who undergo these The Afghan special case tribunal announced its verdict procedures to a concerning lack of safeguards. It makes on the Kabul bank fraud trial on 5 March. The former recommendations to improve the quality of care, to chief executive and chairman of the Kabul bank, were inform and empower the public and to ensure resolution each convicted of breach of trust and sentenced to five and redress when things go wrong. years in prison. In addition, the individuals received The review examined attempts at self-regulation to fines equivalent to the value of the assets they are establish effective standards and found these wanting. It deemed to have stolen from the bank. Other defendants may be necessary, therefore, to consider new legislation were given shorter prison sentences. The Afghan Attorney- or amendments to existing regulation for some of the General has lodged an appeal against the entirety of the recommendations. It may also be possible for much to verdict seeking stronger sentences. be accomplished through revised professional standards On 6 March the Prime Minister hosted an investors and improved training. forum with the Afghan Minister of Mines at No. 10 I am supportive of the principal conclusions of the Downing street. The event provided an opportunity to review, and the Government will make their formal demonstrate Afghanistan’s natural resource potential. written response to the recommendations before the At the forum the Prime Minister and International summer recess. Development Secretary announced a new DFID “Review of the Regulation of Cosmetic Interventions— programme of £10 million over the next three years, Final Report” has been placed in the Library. Copies which will support the Ministry’s work to negotiate, are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and grant, manage and monitor contracts, appoint experts to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. to key posts and develop the mineral and hydrocarbon sector. The UK continues to support an Afghan-led peace WORK AND PENSIONS and reconciliation process. Now is the time for all Afghans to sit down together to help shape a peaceful Social Justice: Transforming Lives and prosperous future for their country. This process must be inclusive. The Taliban has an opportunity to The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain engage in dialogue about Afghanistan’s future by opening Duncan Smith): A year ago, we published “Social Justice: an office in Doha. transforming lives”, a landmark document setting out a The Afghan national security forces are progressing new vision for supporting the most disadvantaged families well. A total of 21 out of 26 brigades are now operating and individuals across the UK. The social justice strategy either independently, or with ISAF only in an advisory outlined how family breakdown, low educational role. ISAF forces continue work to build and train the attainment, worklessness, problem debt, and addiction key military enabling capabilities that the ANSF need combine to cause the entrenched poverty affecting many to operate. By way of example, the Afghan air force of our communities, highlighting the complexity of the achieved a major milestone in their combined strategic issues that many people face. flight plan, with the first combined training exercise To meet this challenge, the strategy signalled that a including multiple aircraft and supporting capabilities. new approach was needed—putting early intervention I am placing the report in the Library of the House. first, while tackling the root causes of poverty to give It will also be published on the gov.uk website: www.gov.uk/ those experiencing disadvantage a meaningful second government/publications/afghanistan-progress-reports. chance. 57WS Written Ministerial Statements24 APRIL 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS

Today, I wish to inform the House that I am laying The achievements set out in this report, and in supporting the command paper “Social Justice: transforming lives— documents published on the Department for Work and One year on”, which demonstrates the progress that we Pensions’ website, show how much can change in a year, have made in turning that vision into a reality. and what this change means to individuals. We have Over the last 12 months, we have started the cultural made substantial progress against over 100 commitments change needed in order to achieve our aims, spanning set out in “Social Justice: transforming lives”, each of not only families and individuals, but also public services which equates to meaningful life change for the most and the way the Government fund them. vulnerable in our society. As today’s report sets out, delivering this aim has While the challenges we face remain significant, this required a complete shift in how the Government tackle is a strong and positive start—much to the credit of social problems: an unrelenting focus on preventing those championing social justice in Government, at a problems arising in the first place; giving people the local level and across the voluntary sector. By restating support they need to make transformational changes to our commitment to transforming lives, and continuing their own lives when problems arise; and spearheading to drive change in how we help families and individuals new multi-agency, outcome-focused approaches in order in need, we will make social justice a reality for everyone to address problems in the round. in the United Kingdom.

5P Petitions24 APRIL 2013 Petitions 6P Petitions TREASURY VAT on toasted sandwiches Wednesday 24 April 2013 The Petition of employees and customers of Subway, Declares that VAT is being charged on toasted subs and sandwiches, further that as a result, the sandwich OBSERVATIONS shop industry, which employs tens of thousands of hard working people and supports thousands of small businesses, is now being placed under threat and that sandwich shop owners should be treated fairly. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to maintain its recent Local Authority Funding (Derby) U-turn on pasties and additionally to remove or reduce The Petition of citizens of the United Kingdom, the tax across the board, in line with our European neighbours. Declares that they believe there has been a disproportionate impact of the Government’s austerity And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr John programme on Derby compared to other local authority Leech, Official Report, 25 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 1437.] areas and that the cumulative impact of the cuts being [P001167] forced on Derby City Council will amount £75.77 per Observations from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, person compared to a few pounds in other more affluent Treasury: parts of the country. The Chancellor announced in Budget 2012 a number The Petitioners therefore request that the House of of budget measures designed to clarify or to address Commons urges the Secretary of State for Communities anomalies and loopholes in the VAT system. The clarifying and Local Government to ensure a fair deal for Derby measures included an amendment to ensure that all hot by reducing the amount of cuts made to Derby City takeaway food is subject to VAT. Council. The new legislation was debated and approved by And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Chris Parliament last year and included in the 2012 Finance Williamson, Official Report, 28 November 2012; Vol. 554, Act. It came into effect from 1 October 2012. The c. 342 .] legislation does not distinguish between different hot [P001139] takeaway food products. Any food product that is heated Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities to order for a customer, kept hot or marketed as hot, is and Local Government: liable to VAT at the standard rate. If it is left to cool Local government accounts for around a quarter naturally, it is not. Toasted sandwiches have been liable of all public spending so it is only right that councils, to VAT at the standard rate since 1984, and there is including Derby, play their part in paying off the deficit nothing in the new legislation that changes this. left by the last Administration. Indeed, the last This petition proposes removing or reducing VAT Administration’s March 2010 Budget was planning from hot takeaway food “across the board”. When the £52 billion of cuts over the Spending Review period—which UK joined the European Community in 1973 we signed would have included local government, which was not a up to the general agreements that covered the application protected area. of VAT throughout the EC. Under these and successive The Government have delivered a fair local government agreements, we are allowed to keep our existing zero finance settlement for 2013-14, fair to north and south, rates, but we may not extend the scope of our existing fair to rural and urban, fair to shires and metropolitan zero rate reliefs. Having excluded hot takeaway food areas. from the scope of the zero rate in 1984, the UK cannot legally reinstate it. Derby still has a spending power (including Public Health Grant) in 2013-14 of £849 per head, which is Some EU Member States apply a reduced rate of over £140 more per head than the £706 in Wokingham. VAT to restaurant and catering services, which is provided for in EU law. However, such a relief would necessarily The petition dates from before the announcement of go far wider than simply the treatment of toasted the 2013-14 local government settlement but even in sandwiches, and would therefore come at a significant 2012-13 Derby still had a formula grant (including cost, which would have to be met either through increasing police) allocation of £545 per head, which was higher other types of tax or from increased public borrowing. than the England average of £525 per head. Increasing borrowing would risk raising interest rates This Government have also taken action to work and undermining international confidence, which would with local councils to freeze council tax. Under the last damage the recovery and have an adverse impact on Administration, council tax bills in Derby rose by 102%. individuals, families and small businesses, including In the last three years, council tax bills have only risen those in the hot takeaway food sector. by 1.5%—a significant cut in real terms. This Government do not plan to make any further This is a fair deal for Derby’s local taxpayers. changes to the legislation on hot takeaway food.

901W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 902W Written Answers to DEFENCE Armed Forces: Vehicles Questions Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the maximum capacity is of each of the current Wednesday 24 April 2013 sites available to his Department for the receipt, inspection, repair and storage of military vehicles; what the current capacity is of each such site; and if he TRANSPORT will make a statement. [152697] Fuel Cells: Hydrogen Mr Robathan: This information is not held centrally Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Transport how much the Government (a) has invested and (b) plans to invest in the development of hydrogen Cyprus fuel cell technologies. [152784] Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: Since 2009 the Technology Strategy Defence how much of the cost of Operation Tosca is Board and co-funding partner the Department for Energy being claimed against the UK’s Official Development and Climate Change have invested in excess of £41m into Assistance Target. [152743] fuel cell and hydrogen technologies. The Department for Energy and Climate Change’s contribution has been Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence did not claim nearly £10m. This represents projects with a total value, any costs for Operation Tosca against Official Development with the industrial contribution, of over £85m. In this Assistance (ODA). Under the Organisation for Economic financial year 2013-14 the Technology Strategy Board Co-operation and Development (OECD) Development has plans to invest a further £4.5m into ongoing activity Assistance Committee ODA guidelines, this activity is supporting fuel cell manufacturing and the supply chain not ODA eligible. and £5m into technologies specifically enabling the Costs for Operation Tosca, which in financial year market for hydrogen. Fuel cells and hydrogen technologies 2012-13 amounted to £17.706 million, are met from the are a part of the Technology Strategy Board’s energy Conflict Pool. strategy and further investments into this area are anticipated during the current spending review period, Defence Support Group to continue to support UK companies developing products for this growing global market. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for whether the Defence Support Group has been given the Transport what support and investment the opportunity to submit an in-house bid for the purchase Government has provided to the UK’s first open access of the business it currently carries out for his hydrogen refuelling station in Swindon. [152785] Department; and if he will make a statement. [152607]

Norman Baker: The UK’s first open access hydrogen Mr Robathan: The purpose of the sale of Defence refuelling station in Swindon is a central part of a Support Group (DSG) is to raise a capital receipt project awarded funding in July 2012 from the Technology through a privatisation enabling the business to diversify, Strategy Board and the Department for Energy and grow and get access to investment. Climate Change. The project aims to supply green A privatised DSG will remove its dependence on the hydrogen to the refuelling station for multiple vehicle Ministry of Defence as its sole major customer, and at use and a significant part of the benefit of the project is the same time give the front line the best opportunity to the fact that it builds on the previous investment in this retain access to a DSG with the capacity and transformed unique facility. The total cost of the project is £3.5m and capability needed to support the Armed Forces of the it has been awarded a grant of £1.75m. It is one of five future. The opportunity is there for anyone to make a projects funded in a programme with a total value - bid for DSG if they can satisfy the requirements for including business contributions, of over £19m - with sale. grant funding of £7.5m from the Technology Strategy Board and £1.5m from the Department for Energy and Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Climate Change. to which Defence Support Group sites the military West Coast Railway Line equipment project teams have been advised to cease sending equipment; and if he will make a statement. John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for [152695] Transport whether he intends to seek to secure the provision of free wi-fi for passengers in all classes of Mr Robathan: No project teams have been advised to travel when negotiating the extended West Coast Main cease sending equipment to Defence Support Group Line franchise. [153089] sites. Mr Simon Burns: The decision relating to the provision Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence of free wi-fi for passengers is a commercial matter for when any formal decision to close any Defence Support the train operator to consider and is not something that Group site was made; and if he will make a statement. will be specified by the Department for Transport. [152696] 903W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 904W

Mr Robathan: I refer the hon. Member to the written HMS Ambush ministerial statement made by the then Secretary of State for Defence the right hon. Member for Coventry Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for North East (Mr Ainsworth), on 29 March 2010, Official Defence (1) what defect caused HMS Ambush to be Report, column 79WS. towed back to HMNB Clyde during its recent sea trial; This followed the conclusion of a formal consultation [153041] exercise with the trade unions on the proposal which (2) what maintenance occurred on HMS Ambush began on 30 November 2009. No other DSG business prior to its being towed back to HMNB Clyde during transformation activity has resulted in site closures. its recent sea trial. [153042]

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Robathan: HMS Ambush recently completed a what dividend has been paid by the Defence Support planned maintenance period at Her Majesty’s Naval Group to his Department in each year since 2008; what Base (HMNB) Clyde. This was the submarine’s first savings have accrued in reduced costs and efficiencies in maintenance period since leaving Barrow, and provided each such year; and if he will make a statement. the first opportunity to address various issues raised during the initial set of Platform Sea Trials. [152698] On sailing from HMNB Clyde on 10 April 2013, a Mr Robathan: The dividends returned from Defence problem with the lubricating oil system was identified. Support Group (DSG) from an almost entirely Ministry HMS Ambush returned alongside under her own power of Defence (MOD) revenue stream have been: and remedial action was taken; she was not towed but accompanied by tugs, which is standard operating practice Financial year £ million for any submarine entering or exiting HMNB Clyde. RAF Cranwell 2008-09 5.2 2009-10 4.5 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 2.3 Defence what assessment he has made of trends in the 2011-12 4.5 average running cost of RAF Cranwell since 2000; and 2012-13 7 whether any savings have been made over that period. [152969] It should be noted that, while a good indication of the DSG Trading Fund managing its business well, it is Mr Robathan: Trends in the average running cost of only at the moment MOD money circulating through RAF Cranwell are assessed annually as part of the one of its own business divisions. Ministry of Defence budget setting process and in managing expenditure in year. These costs are influenced Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence by a number of factors such as changes to the Royal Air if he will place in the Library the business case Force recruiting and training requirement, inflation, developed by the Defence Infrastructure Organisation equipment support costs and the renewal of multi activity for the redevelopment of each of the Defence Support contracts. Group sites; and if he will make a statement. [152701] Savings are made wherever possible, such as when contracts for the provision of services are renewed but Mr Robathan: No business cases for the redevelopment these may be offset to some extent by the effects of of the Defence Support Group (DSG) sites have been inflation. produced. All of the sites are considered to be suitable for their current and future use. DSG disposal is part of Royal Naval College asset receipts required of the Department. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many members of the (a) Royal Navy Defence: Procurement and (b) Royal Air Force currently undergo training at Britannia Royal Naval College, Dartmouth; [152792] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (2) what assessment he has made of trends in the what account his Department has taken of average running costs of Britannia Royal Naval international traffic and arms regulations in reaching College, Dartmouth since 2000; and whether any any decision to place contracts for the receipt, savings have been made over that period. [152968] inspection, repair and storage of military vehicles and equipment within the private sector; and if he will Mr Robathan: There are currently 280 Royal Navy make a statement. [152606] personnel undergoing training at Britannia Royal Naval College. There are no Royal Air Force personnel. Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) invites The running costs and efficiencies associated with all bidders to specify in their bid responses any non-UK Britannia Royal Naval College are reviewed annually as export licence, authorisation or exemption that may be part of the financial planning and approvals process. required in order to perform any resultant contract, or Storage any other related transfer control. The MOD then considers what risks such controls, Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence including the US International Traffic in arms regulations, which sites are currently available to his Department may place upon the performance of the particular for the receipt, inspection, repair and storage of contract and what actions the bidder intends to take to military vehicles; what the maintenance and mitigate such risks, before awarding any contract. improvement spend on each such site was in each year 905W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 906W since 2003; whether a controlled humidity environment Substantive answer from Andrew Robathan to Rehman is available at each such site; whether there is access to Chishti: a railway line at each such site; how many staff are I undertook to write to you in answer to your Parliamentary employed at each such site; and if he will make a Question on 29 November 2012 (Official Report, column 461W) statement. [152699] about Remotely Piloted Aircraft Systems (RPAS). I apologise that it has taken so long to reply. Mr Robathan: This information is not held centrally I should point out that my answer contained an error in the and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. final sentence that I would like to take this opportunity to correct. My answer stated that UK Forces had only ever flown US Submarines unmanned aerial vehicles outside Afghanistan during Operation Ellamy in Libya. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for The answer should have said that UK personnel embedded Defence (1) what modifications will be needed at with the US Air Force have only flown US RPAS in support of HMNB Clyde and RNAD Coulport to accept the operations in Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq. successor submarine programme; [152716] I have asked for the Official Record to be corrected. (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the Between October 2006 and 31 December 2012, UK aircrew had flown approximately 2,150 operational missions using US public purse of adapting the ship lift facility at HMNB REAPER and PREDATOR RPAS in support of operations in Clyde to accommodate the successor to the Vanguard Afghanistan and Libya. class submarines. [152721] UK and US personnel also operate both nation’s RPAS as part of the launch and recovery phase in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is information on the number of occasions they have done so is not currently conducting a series of studies examining the held centrally and could only be provided at disproportionate infrastructure that will be required to support the successor cost. Information about operations in Iraq is also not held submarines. centrally. Only when the studies have been completed, and the Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for results analysed, will the MOD be in a position to Defence pursuant to the answer of 29 November 2012, determine what changes will be necessary to the Official Report, column 461W, on unmanned air infrastructure at Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde, including vehicles, when he expects to write to the hon. Member the Royal Naval Armament Depot, Coulport and to for Gillingham and Rainham. [138546] estimate the cost of any such changes. Trident Submarines Mr Robathan: I answered my hon. Friend today. USA Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the first Vanguard class submarine will Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for come out of service; and when the first successor Defence what (a) representations and (b) submarine will come into service. [152717] communications he and his Department have made to the US Navy on delays in the Ohio-class ballistic Mr Robathan: As outlined in the Strategic Defence missile submarine replacement programme and its and Security Review, the first successor submarine is effect on the successor programme. [152719] planned to enter service in 2028. Current Vanguard class submarines will undergo comprehensive life extension Mr Robathan: We have regular discussions with the activities to ensure they are able to hand over with the US on a range of issues, including on the successor successor class as they enter service. programme. The planned in-service date for the successor submarine programme has not been affected. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many ballistic missile submarines will need to be fully operational during the transition from Vanguard class to its successor during the transition WALES period between classes. [152718] Electricity

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence will ensure Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for that there will be sufficient numbers of submarines Wales if he will evaluate the potential benefits of during transition to maintain our current posture of amalgamating the electricity grids of North, Mid and continuous at sea deterrence. South Wales to form a unified Welsh power grid. Unmanned Air Vehicles [152481] Stephen Crabb: The design and operation of the Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for electricity networks is a matter for the network companies Defence how many times (a) British forces have flown and Ofgem, as the independent regulator. US unmanned aerial vehicles and (b) US forces have flown British unmanned aerial vehicles in the latest Hotels period for which figures are available. [128974] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Mr Robathan: The information will take time to how many officials in his Department stayed in hotels collate. I will write to the hon. Member as soon as it is in (a) the UK and (b) every other country during the available. UK Forces have only ever flown US unmanned last five years; at what total cost; and what the aerial vehicles outside Afghanistan, during Operation monetary value was of the 20 highest such hotel Ellamy in Libya. expenses in each such year. [152568] 907W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 908W

Stephen Crabb: Information on hotels booked is only Cross-Border Healthcare Services was published on available from February 2010, prior to this date individuals 1 April 2013. This protocol has been developed between filed paper claim forms and the information could only the NHS in England and Wales and will be regularly be obtained at a disproportionate cost. The following reviewed to secure cross-border health care provision in tables detail: a way that supports improved patient outcomes and (a) Hotels used in the UK avoids the fragmentation of care. Number of officials stayed in hotels Total cost (£) National Assembly for Wales

2009-10 12 3,663.16 2010-11 28 18,958.92 Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 43 25,398.44 Wales what consideration has been given to 2012-13 42 18,855.71 introducing a second scrutinising chamber in Wales. [152762]

(b) Hotels outside the UK Mr David Jones: I am content that the Government Number of officials stayed in hotels outside UK Total cost (£) of Wales Act 2006 sets out appropriate mechanisms for the scrutiny of Assembly legislation without the need to 2009-10 3 328.50 introduce a second chamber. These include powers for 2010-11 0 — the Secretary of State to intervene in certain cases and 2011-12 0 — for the Attorney-General or the Counsel General to 2012-13 3 975.06 refer questions of whether a Bill or any provision of a Bill is within competence to the Supreme Court for a The following table sets out the Top 20 rates booked decision. The Act also sets out a clear framework for by officials: Assembly Standing Orders to include processes for scrutinising Assembly Bills. £ Top 20 rates claimed Official Hospitality 2009-101 2010-11 2011-122 2012-13

1 120.00 120.00 120.00 218.56 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 2 99.87 119.88 118.80 179.31 how many officials in his Department claimed 3 99.86 119.19 110.00 122.29 reimbursements for working lunches and official 4 99.62 102.00 102.00 121.29 entertainment in each of the last five years; and what 5 99.00 100.00 100.00 120.00 the total cost was in each such year. [152678] 6 97.75 99.88 95.00 118.00 7 95.00 99.87 91.00 117.26 Stephen Crabb: In the last five years the Wales Office 8 85.00 99.86 89.00 114.89 has not reimbursed any officials for working lunches or 9 80.00 99.00 85.00 112.44 official entertainment. 10 75.00 97.75 83.00 112.23 11 64.62 95.00 82.00 107.50 Procurement 12 64.00 94.50 80.00 105.00 13 59.00 91.00 79.00 104.18 Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 14 55.00 89.62 78.99 103.83 what was purchased by his Department in October 15 — 89.00 72.00 102.17 2012 with payment number 1001623. [152400] 16 — 85.00 66.00 102.00 17 — 84.62 64.00 101.38 18 — 84.00 49.95 101.17 Stephen Crabb: Payment number 1001623 in October 19 — 83.00 — 100.00 2012 relates to payment for the production, including 20 — 82.00 — 97.50 Welsh translation, of the Wales Office 2011-12 Annual 1 Only 14 rates booked. Report and Accounts. 2 Only 18 rates booked. Public Sector: Redundancy Liver Diseases Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for how many public sector job losses there have been in Wales what discussions he has had with the Welsh (a) Wales and (b) each parliamentary constituency in Government on (a) improving provision for the Wales since May 2010. [152399] treatment of advanced liver disease in Wales and (b) supporting patients who have to travel to England for Mr David Jones: Since the end of Q1 2010 public such treatment. [152601] sector employment in Wales has fallen by 19,000, the smallest reduction of any region of the UK. This has Mr David Jones: As health is a devolved matter, it is been more than offset by the 35,000 increase in private for the Welsh Government to determine its own health sector employment in Wales over the same period. policies to meet the needs of the people of Wales. The Office for National Statistics preferred source of The Wales Office, the Department of Health and the statistics for public sector employment is the Quarterly Welsh Government have been working together to agree Public Sector Employment Survey (QPSES). Figures long term solutions to some of the cross-border issues from this source are not available at the parliamentary which have emerged since devolution. The Protocol for constituency level. 909W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 910W

Redundancy Pay broadband, what steps she is taking to monitor compliance with the Direction made to Ofcom in Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales December 2010. [151861] how many officials in his Department received payments under a voluntary exit scheme in each of the Mr Vaizey: We are working closely with Ofcom to last five years; and at what total cost in each such year. ensure all six elements1as cited in the 2010 Direction, [152659] are completed in a timely, open and transparent manner. 1 Variation of 900 MHz and 1800 MHz licences to allow use for Stephen Crabb: One member of staff in the Wales GSM and UMTS systems; Other variations to existing wireless Office received a payment in 2009-10 upon taking early telegraphy licences; Licence fees; Spectrum trading; Competition retirement. 10 staff received voluntary exit scheme payments assessment and Auction of licences. in 2011-12 and two in 2012-13 as part of the Wales Office’s programme to deliver efficiencies savings and Broadband: Enterprise Zones better align skills across the Department to ministerial priorities. The Wales Office is not an employer in its Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for own right. Our permanent staff are employees of the Culture, Media and Sport what benchmarks, deadlines Ministry of Justice (MOJ), with other staff members on and targets she has set for (a) broadband roll out and loan from the Welsh Government and other Government (b) superfast broadband roll out to enterprise zones. Departments. Some of the schemes under which Wales [152989] Office staff received payments were offered by the MOJ and the Welsh Government, and the Wales Office funded Mr Vaizey: The Government have committed to ensuring only some of the costs arising. The total cost funded by that enterprise zones will have access to superfast broadband the Wales Office amounted to £19,250 in 2010-11, and by May 2015. The Government are working with each £238,156.13 in 2011-12. Information relating to 2012-13 enterprise zone to develop plans for broadband roll-out will be published as part of the Annual Report and and is exploring opportunities to bring forward delivery Accounts. where possible. Treasury Broadband: Rural Areas

Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, how many meetings he has held with the Chancellor of Media and Sport what steps her Department is taking the Exchequer in the last three months. [152401] to ensure the fastest possible rollout of fibre-optic broadband networks to rural areas in the UK. [152922] Mr David Jones: I have regular discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Mr Vaizey: We are making good progress on the local Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne). broadband projects with 19 contracts signed to date and we expect them all to be agreed by the end of the Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales summer. The Government have also committed to removing pursuant to the answer of 18 March 2013, Official a swathe of red tape to avoid potential delays to the Report, column 406W, on Budget March 2013, if he rollout of infrastructure and we remain on track to will publish his letter to the Chancellor of the deliver these reforms by the summer of 2013. Northern Exchequer. [152463] Ireland was allocated £4.4 million to support broadband roll-out and the Northern Ireland Assembly has local Mr David Jones: In line with the practice of previous responsibility for delivery of a broadband project using Administrations, details of internal discussions are not that funding. disclosed. Museums and Galleries

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many people visited museums in Broadband (a) Barnsley, (b) South Yorkshire and (c) England in 2012. [150538] Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of Mr Vaizey [holding answer 15 April 2013]: The total 1 March 2013, Official Report, column 710W, on number of visits to national museums and galleries in broadband, whether Ofcom has set a timetable for England for 2012 are 44,519,777. However we are unable revising the annual fees for 900MHz and 1800MHz to provide data for Barnsley and South Yorkshire as the spectrum. [151860] data is not held centrally. Total visits to all England museums can be found in Mr Vaizey: Ofcom have stated they will publish a the following table. consultation later in the year seeking views on the proposed methodology that will be used in setting the Number revised annual licence fees for the 900 MHz and 1800 MHz spectrum. 2008 41,107,722 2009 41,154,524 Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 43,316,838 Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 2011 43,734,704 1 March 2013, Official Report, column 710W, on 911W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 912W

Olympic Games 2012 Royal Charters: Regulation

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Media and Sport how many officials in (a) her Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions she Department and (b) the non-departmental public has had with media representatives about Royal bodies for which she is responsible were employed Charter regulations on the basis of the Leveson before the London 2012 Olympics to carry out proposals; and if she will make a statement. [152737] functions relating to the Games; and how many officials remained employed to carry out functions Mr Vaizey: The Department regularly publishes details related to the London 2012 Olympics in the most of ministerial meetings with media representatives including recent period for which figures are available. [152694] newspaper and other media proprietors, editors and Hugh Robertson: During 2012-13 the number of full-time senior executives, full details of which can be found at equivalents (FTEs) employed by DCMS to carry out the following link: functions relating to the London 2012 Olympic and http://www.transparency.culture.gov.uk/category/other/ Paralympic Games was 140. It excludes a number of meetings/ staff from the Department who were engaged on this World War I: Anniversaries work temporarily during the period of the Games themselves. Two full time equivalents are currently employed Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for full-time on the London 2012 Games work, including Culture, Media and Sport what recent progress she has oversight of the 2013-14 programme to transform the made on her proposals to commemorate the centenary Olympic Village for residential use and the wind up of of the First World War. [152040] the Olympic delivery bodies, while a number of staff in the sport, culture, tourism and other teams have aspects Mr Vaizey: The Government have announced a four of London 2012 legacy work as part of their functions. year centenary programme, supported by £50 million of government funding. Throughout the centenary, Information about our arm’s length bodies is not remembrance, cultural and education initiatives will held centrally. feature prominently in national events. The Government Pay are actively developing plans with Commonwealth countries and other Governments alongside encouraging and Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, supporting community activity across the UK. Media and Sport what criteria are used in (a) her Department and (b) each public body for which she is responsible to determine which officials receive bonus payments. [151128] ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Hugh Robertson: Bonus payments are made to officials Agricultural Wages Board in DCMS for two purposes: in year payments to reward outstanding contributions, in particularly demanding Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for tasks or situations with small one-off payments, and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment performance related payments, to reward highly successful he has made of the effect of the abolition of the performance over a whole appraisal year. Awards are Agricultural Wages Board on agricultural workers’ made in line with Departmental policy. Cabinet Office wages in (a) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland principles and Civil Service Pay guidelines on performance- constituency, (b) North Yorkshire and (c) the North related pay. East of England. [153136] The criteria used is as follows: In Year Reward Scheme: Mr Heath: There has not been any assessment of Dealing with demanding situations, e.g. matters of political regional impact of abolition of the Agricultural Wages sensitivity or organisational change Board on agricultural worker’s wages. Taking a creative or innovative approach to one or more work We have been quite clear that there is considerable situations uncertainty about the impact on workers’ wages. The Delivering key ministerial objectives reality will depend on demand, which evidence shows Short term commitment to getting the job done, meeting is increasing, and how farmers use the increased flexibility. difficult deadlines to an excellent standard Many workers are already paid above the agricultural Performance Related Pay Scheme: minimum wage for their grade, so it is probable that Have exceeded all agreed objectives, making a very strong their wages will not be affected by the removal of the contribution to the work of the Department. Agricultural Wages Board. Moreover, the underlying Have demonstrated and championed DCMS values consistently market conditions suggest that farmers will need to throughout the year. offer competitive packages to attract and retain skilled Are a role model across the Department and/or externally and qualified staff. Since 2010-11 DCMS has restricted performance related Workers with existing contracts at the time of abolition payments for senior civil servants to the top 25% of will retain entitlement to the terms of that employment performers (from 65% in previous years) and to 40% for until the contract either comes to an end or is varied by staff in delegated grades (from 60% in previous years) agreement between the worker and the employer. since 2011-12. All workers will be protected by the national minimum We do not hold central records for our public bodies. wage. 913W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 914W

Animal Welfare: Crime Mr Heath: The Government has been examining the evidence on this important issue with care. We have Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for always made it clear that we will be guided by the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent evidence and will act if there is a need. If action were discussion he has had with the Secretary of State for needed, we would want to make sure that this was Justice regarding sentencing for and protection against effective in reducing risks to bees while minimising animal cruelty offences; and if he will make a unintended consequences for the environment or human statement; [153018] health. (2) if he has considered introducing a lifetime ban The independent Advisory Committee on Pesticides for animal ownership for persistent or serious offenders has considered the evidence on neonicotinoids on several of animal cruelty; [153021] occasions. The Committee advised, following its meeting (3) what assessment he has made of the potential on 29 January, that there were grounds for a review of benefits of increasing the maximum sentence available neonicotinoid product authorisations under pesticides for animal cruelty offences for the purposes of ensuring legislation. Ministers have accepted this advice and sufficient protection and deterrent measures; and if he officials in the Health and Safety Executive’s Chemicals will make a statement. [153023] Regulation Directorate launched this work on 5 April. Mr Heath [holding answer 23 April 2013]: Under the While laboratory studies show that bees may be Animal Welfare Act 2006, it is an offence to cause any significantly affected by neonicotinoids, field data on unnecessary suffering to an animal or to fail to provide honey bees indicates that the level of exposure in non- for an animal’s welfare needs. On conviction, the maximum laboratory conditions does not lead to these harmful penalties available for an offence of unnecessary suffering effects. There has been an absence of field data on other are a fine of £20,000 or six months’ imprisonment, or bee species and DEFRA therefore commissioned field both. The maximum penalties for failing to provide for trials on bumble bees. This work was published on the the welfare of an animal are a fine of £5,000 or six DEFRA website with our assessment of the key evidence months’ imprisonment, or both. The court may, in and is now available online at: addition to any other punishment on conviction, disqualify www.gov.uk the person convicted from having custody of any animal for such a period as it thinks fit. This could mean a This work concludes that it is not possible to rule out lifetime ban from keeping animals. rare effects of neonicotinoids on bees in the field. However, the evidence indicates that effects on bees do Sections 85-87 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and not occur under normal circumstances. Consequently, Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 provide powers to it supports the view that the risk to bee populations remove the maximum limits’ of penalties imposed on from neonicotinoids, as they are currently used, is low. offenders by magistrates courts. However, these sections have not yet been commenced. The European Commission has proposed restrictions on the use of three neonicotinoids, following the peer Animals: Sales review by the European Food Safety Authority. We have urged the Commission to complete the scientific Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment, taking account of our new research, and to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what assess the impacts of action so that the measures taken progress his Department has made on meeting are proportionate to the risks identified. representatives of classified websites to discuss the issue of online advertisement and sale of pets and animals; [152311] Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what progress his Department has made on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment assessing and addressing the issues surrounding the he has made of the impact on bees of the use of online advertisement and sale of pets and animals. neonicotinoid pesticides. [152425] [152313] Mr Heath: DEFRA is in regular contact with the Pet Mr Heath: While laboratory studies show that bees Advertising Advisory Group (PAAG), which is a group may be significantly affected by neonicotinoids, field of concerned animal welfare, animal keeping and veterinary data on honey bees indicates that the level of exposure organisations, who are working with a number of classified in non-laboratory conditions does not lead to these websites to address the issues raised by the proliferation harmful effects. There has been an absence of field data of internet pet advertising. Through the PAAG, DEFRA on other bee species and DEFRA, therefore, commissioned officials met with representatives from classified websites. field trials on bumble bees. The report of these field Further meetings are planned, as well as the provision trials was published on the DEFRA website with our of guidance to the sector and potential buyers. assessment of the key evidence and is now available online at: Bees: Pesticides www.gov.uk Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for Our assessment of the overall evidence concludes Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he that it is not possible to rule out rare effects of plans to take in response to the findings in relation to neonicotinoids on bees in the field. However, the evidence bee health of the recent peer reviews of risk indicates that effects on bees do not occur under normal assessments of neonicotinoid pesticides undertaken by circumstances. Consequently, it supports the view that the European Food Safety Authority; and if he will the risk to bee populations from neonicotinoids, as they make a statement. [146772] are currently used, is low. It is clear that more research is 915W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 916W needed in this area, and we are both commissioning WOMEN AND EQUALITIES additional work and encouraging other EU states and the Commission to do so. Business: Females

Dogs Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what recent representations she has received Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for on equality of opportunity for women in company Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent boardrooms. [152738] assessment he has made of animal welfare standards in UK puppy farms; and if he will make a statement. Jo Swinson: The Minister for Women and Equalities, [153022] the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), attended the launch of Cranfield’s Female FTSE 100 Mr Heath [holding answer 23 April 2013]: Under the report and the Lord Davies’ ‘two-year on’ Women on Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and the Breeding and Sale Boards report on 10 April alongside the President of of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999, local authorities have the CBI, Sir Roger Carr, and the Secretary of State for powers to enter and inspect licensed dog breeding Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend establishments. Under the Breeding of Dogs Act 1991, the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable). Both reports local authorities have powers to enter and inspect dog highlight progress is being made for female directors on breeding establishments that they suspect should have a the boards of FTSE 100 companies and the FTSE 250. valid licence and are unlicensed. In addition, under the The Minister for Women and Equalities discussed Animal Welfare Act 2006, local authorities have powers with a wide range of stakeholders, including FTSE to investigate allegations of poor welfare or cruelty in chairs and members of the 30% Club, the progress unlicensed dog breeding establishments. being made and what more can be done to accelerate It is therefore for local authorities to assess the welfare the progress we are already making. standards of dog breeding establishments and decide what action, if any, to take. Castes

Livestock Industry Mr Bain: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what the policy of her Department is on placing discrimination on the grounds of caste on an Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for equal footing as other discrimination on the grounds of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what steps he race under section 9(5) of the Equality Act 2010; and if plans to take to assist livestock owners whose herd she will bring forward legislative proposals to that end. numbers have been reduced as a result of unseasonable [151220] weather; [152387] (2) what assistance his Department is offering to Mrs Grant: The UK Government thinks that no-one farmers in Shropshire who have lost livestock as a should suffer prejudice or discrimination. Such behaviour result of the recent unseasonable cold weather. [152388] is wrong and should not be condoned whether or not it is prohibited by legislation. This is a deeply complex Mr Heath: The latest steps that the Government has issue but we have not seen any evidence so far that taken to assist those farmers which have been severely suggests that legislation is the most appropriate way of affected by the cold weather were set out in my written dealing with caste discrimination, to the extent that this ministerial statement on 18 April 2013, Official Report, exists in Britain. column 34WS. The current Government is the first Government to address the issue of caste discrimination. A written Livestock: Exports ministerial statement of 1 March 2013, Official Report, columns 39-40WS, announced an educational initiative Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for with the Hindu and Sikh communities on the complex Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions and sensitive issue of caste prejudice. he has had with his ministerial colleagues in the Department for Transport on bringing forward Mr Bain: To ask the Minister for Women and legislative proposals to amend the Ports and Harbours Equalities what assessment she has made of the Act 1847 to permit port authorities to refuse to allow compatibility of the current law on racial the export of live animals through their ports. [153098] discrimination in the UK with the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Mr Heath: I have not had any discussions with ministerial Discrimination in respect of (a) discrimination on colleagues in the Department for Transport. The Harbour grounds of caste and (b) other matters. [151510] Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847 aims to ensure that ports are available to all without discrimination. It Mrs Grant: The International Convention on the would not be an appropriate legal instrument to use Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination refers to it to introduce an effective barrier to trade for the use racial discrimination as being based on by port authorities as they see fit. In any case, banning “race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin”. the export of live animals would be illegal and The convention places no obligation on states to incorporate undermine the principle of free movement of goods it into domestic law and the UK has not done so. The enshrined in the treaty on the functioning of the European Government understands its obligation under the Union. convention to take all necessary measures to ensure that 917W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 918W the law and practice of the UK fully respects and Irish Department of Finance on ensuring that implements all the provisions of the convention. The Northern Ireland will not be disproportionately Government is confident that it has done so and continues affected in terms of job loss during the restructuring to do so. through the Irish banking sector and Irish banks. Multiple Births: Maternity Pay [152846] Mrs Moon: To ask the Minister for Women and Mrs Villiers: I will be engaging with Irish Ministers Equalities if she will link the expiry date of maternity on the impact of changes to the structure of the Irish pay in the case of a multiple birth to the expected date banking system on Northern Ireland. I am also in of delivery rather than the actual date of delivery; and contact with the Northern Ireland Finance Minister on if she will make a statement. [152172] this issue. Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Redundancy Pay the Department for Work and Pensions. Statutory maternity pay provides a measure of earnings Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for replacement to allow a woman to take time away from Northern Ireland how many officials in (a) her work to prepare for and recover from childbirth. Generally, Department and (b) each of the non-departmental a mother can choose to start her statutory maternity public bodies for which she is responsible received pay at any point 11 weeks before the expected week of payments under a voluntary exit scheme in each of the confinement (i.e. expected week of birth of a child) last five years; and at what total cost in each such year. until the day after confinement. As the expiry date of [152655] statutory maternity pay is linked to its start date, this in turn means that the expiry date is already linked to the Mrs Villiers: Following the devolution of policing expected date of confinement rather than the actual and justice functions on 12 April 2010, my Department date of delivery for many women. does not hold figures for the periods prior to 2010; However, where payment of SMP has not already attempting to obtain this information would incur started, it will start on the day after the child is born (or disproportionate cost. in the case of a multiple pregnancy, the day after the last Since devolution, my Department has not held any child is born). In all cases, statutory maternity pay is voluntary exit schemes. payable for a consecutive 39 week period. We have no My Department has two non-departmental public plans to change this policy. bodies—the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Parades Commission for Northern Ireland; and NORTHERN IRELAND one advisory non-departmental public body—the Boundary Banks Commission for Northern Ireland. As such bodies are independent of Government, my hon. Friend may wish Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for to write to the Commissions direct on these matters— Northern Ireland what discussions she has had with the contact details are set out in the following table:

ALB Status Contact details

Parades Commission Northern Ireland Executive NDPB [email protected] Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission Executive NDPB [email protected] Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland Advisory NDPB [email protected]

LEADER OF THE HOUSE Mr Lansley: None of my officials have been appointed Scotland to such work; I have conducted no such meetings and commissioned no such work relating to the Scotland Pete Wishart: To ask the Leader of the House (1) Analysis programme. what (a) external organisations and (b) individuals his Office engaged with as part of the Scotland Analysis programme; and what was discussed at such SCOTLAND consultations; [153380] (2) how many members of his Office staff have been Jobseekers allocated to work on the Scotland Analysis 11. Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for programme; and if he will estimate the cost to the Scotland what estimate he has made of the number of public purse of this work; [153381] jobseekers in Scotland likely to be affected by the (3) what meetings (a) he and (b) officials in his Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill. [150809] Office have had with the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West as part of the Scotland Analysis David Mundell: Nobody actively seeking a job in programme; and what was discussed at each such Scotland will be affected by the Jobseekers (Back to meeting; [153382] Work Schemes) Act 2013. (4) what work his Office has commissioned by Budget 2013 external consultants in relation to work on the Scotland Analysis programme; which consultants were 12. Jim McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for used; and how much any such consultancy has cost. Scotland what assessment he has made of the effect of [153383] Budget 2013 on Scotland. [150810] 919W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 920W

Michael Moore: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Jobcentre Plus advisers is subject to regular review to answer I gave earlier to the hon. Members for Glasgow ensure its effectiveness for helping to tackle homelessness North (Ann McKechin) and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun and the barriers it creates to employment. (Cathy Jamieson). The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions meets representatives of the homeless charities on a regular basis to discuss a whole range of topics and these meetings are not limited to this particular matter. WORK AND PENSIONS Disability: Equality Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps he plans to take to improve job outcomes for homeless people in the work Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work programme. [153009] and Pensions what assessment he has made of statutory equality needs in the context of planned changes to the structure of provisions to enable Mr Hoban: The Department does not specify to work programme providers how they should support participants disabled people to live independently. [151884] into work. Providers are expected to use their knowledge Esther McVey: The Government considers the equality and expertise to achieve positive outcomes for all their implications of all policy changes and publishes these, participants, including the homeless. where appropriate, as required by the 2010 Equality Act Human Papillomavirus and the 2006 Act which preceded it. At every stage of policy development the Department gives due regard to equality needs and continues to carry out analysis of Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for the likely impacts of its policies on protected groups, Work and Pensions how many payments have been including disabled people. Impact assessments of policy made by the NHS to compensate girls who have had an changes are provided routinely, in accordance with the adverse reaction to the drug Cerverix in each of the last Equality Act. three years. [151224] The Department published an impact assessment Esther McVey: As Minister responsible for this policy, and equality impact assessment on the reform of DLA I will be answering on behalf of the Secretary of State in May 2012. for Health. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/174995/dla-reform-wr2011-ia.pdf.pdf To clarify, vaccine damage payments are paid by the Department of Work and Pensions to ease the present https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/174970/eia-dla-reform-wr2011.pdf.pdf and future burdens of those suffering from vaccine damage and their families; the payment is not compensation. The Department also published updated equality impact analysis in our response to the consultation on The Department does not hold information on which the Personal Independence Payment assessment criteria specific vaccines are linked to a successful vaccine damage and regulations. payment claim. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Claimants are asked to specify on the claim form all attachment_data/file/181181/pip-assessment-thresholds-and- the vaccinations the disabled person received. However, consultation-response.pdf as many vaccinations can be given in close proximity to A full equality impact assessment was also published each other it is not always possible to state categorically alongside the Government’s response to the consultation which vaccine caused the adverse reaction. Where a on the future of the Independent Living Fund in December payment is made disability is not attributed to any 2012. specific. vaccination. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/184151/closure-of-independent-living- Universal Credit fund-eia.pdf Sarah Champion: To ask the Secretary of State for Homelessness Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the potential additional cost of increasing the maximum Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for childcare subsidy available under universal credit from Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of 70 per cent to 85 per cent of childcare costs for families the effectiveness of the toolkit for identification of that do not have a member earning more than the homelessness by Jobcentre Plus advisers; and when he income tax personal allowance in 2015-16. [152389] last met representatives of homelessness charities to discuss this matter. [153008] Mr Hoban: The Government wants to encourage people to work and where possible to increase their Mr Hoban: There is no specific toolkit for the hours and recognise that those working the longest identification of homelessness. However, Jobcentre Plus hours are likely to face the greatest child care costs. The advisers are equipped with the necessary guidance and Government will spend an additional £200 million on training to identify and provide an appropriate level of child care support through universal credit, which is tailored support for the homeless, as well as other equivalent to providing support for 85% of child care disadvantaged groups. As a priority group, the homeless costs for families qualifying for the universal credit are able to access additional support through Jobcentre child care element where the lone parent or both earners Plus advisers to enter employment, including early access in a couple pay income tax. This will be introduced to the Work programme. The guidance which supports from April 2016. 921W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 922W

The details of how to provide this support will be Home Office staff will assess the non-technical summaries determined as part of a wider consultation on the to ensure they are a fair summary of the applications Tax-free Childcare scheme for those families outside before they are published and that they highlight the universal credit, to ensure the two schemes operate anticipated harms to animals and benefits from the effectively together. This will be published in due course. research as part of the process of assessing the project All figures refer to universal credit steady-state when licence application. migration has been completed and universal credit has Assaults on Police been fully rolled out. Work Programme Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make it her policy that all Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for police forces should maintain records of injuries to Work and Pensions if he will strengthen the minimum police officers injured in the line of duty, and that those service standards for the Work Programme. [153010] records should include the (a) numbers of days lost and (b) cost to the police force. [152855] Mr Hoban: We are exploring how providers are able to strengthen their minimum service standards. Damian Green: England and Wales Police forces already collect accident data on injuries on duty, and will as a matter of good practice maintain records on the numbers HOME DEPARTMENT of days lost. The calculation of the cost to the police Animal Experiments force for days lost is not collected centrally. We do not currently intend to issue a policy to ask forces to provide Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for anything beyond established regulations and existing the Home Department (1) what assessment she has requirements. made of recent allegations of poor practice in animal Asylum: Repatriation welfare issues made by the British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection; and if she will make a Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for the statement; [152411] Home Department what the (a) nationality and (b) (2) if she will set up an independent investigation gender was of each person assisted to return home into the concerns raised by the British Union for the under the Assisted Voluntary Return Scheme operated Abolition of Vivisection about wrongdoing during by Refugee Action on (i) 1 January 2011 and animal experiments at Imperial College London. 31 December 2011 and (ii) 1 January 2012 and [152412] 31 December 2012; and to which country each such person was returned. [151839] James Brokenshire: The use of living animals in scientific procedures which may cause pain, suffering, distress or Mr Harper [holding answer 18 April 2013]: Three lasting harm is strictly regulated under the Animals male individuals from Albania, Bangladesh and India (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. We are determined to were returned to their home countries respectively under ensure animal research is carried out humanely and the Assisted Voluntary Return (AVR) scheme on only when necessary and any reports suggesting that 31 December 2012 run by Refugee Action. There were individuals or establishments are falling short of the no AVR’s on 1 January 2011, 31 December 2011 or high standards required by the 1986 Act are taken 1 January 2012. extremely seriously. The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual Home Office inspectors are investigating the allegations statistics on the number of persons removed or departed of cruelty and bad practice at Imperial College and will voluntarily from the UK within Immigration Statistics. make recommendations on any action to be taken as a The data on removals and voluntary departures are matter of urgency. available in the latest release, Immigration Statistics: October to December 2012, tables rv.01 to rv.08, from Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Library of the House and from the Home Office Home Department what steps she takes to ensure that Science website at: non-technical summaries of applications for projects https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration- licences under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) statistics-october-to-december-2012/immigration-statistics- Act 1986 (a) are a fair summary of the applications october-to-december-2012 before she publishes them and (b) highlight the anticipated harms to animals and benefits from the Baroness Thatcher research. [152182] Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: All project licence applications Home Department (1) what the costs to her must be accompanied by a project summary written in Department were for the deployment of police to non-technical terms. The project summary must explain oversee the funeral of the late Baroness Thatcher of objectives of the programme of work specified in the Kesteven, by category of expenditure; [152887] application; describe the types of animal and estimate (2) what the costs to her Department were for the the number of each type that will be used; predict the rehearsals and preparations for the funeral of the late harm to the animals that will be caused and benefits Baroness Thatcher of Kesteven, by category of that will be gained by carrying out the programme of expenditure. [152888] work; and demonstrate how the applicant will comply with the principles of replacement, reduction and refinement Damian Green: The cost will be published in due throughout the project. course. 923W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 924W

Borders: Personal Records Electronic Surveillance

Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what she expects the highest Home Department (1) in what circumstances deep achievable percentage coverage of all passenger packet inspections undertaken by the Home Office, movements to be for the e-Borders programme; and GCHQ, the police and the intelligence and security when she expects this figure to be achieved. [150423] agencies can take place without a judicial warrant or a warrant by, or on behalf of, the Secretary of State; Mr Harper: Advance passenger information (API) is [147506] now collected for over 142 million passenger and crew (2) how many deep packet inspections undertaken by movements each year on over 4,400 routes, equating to the Home Office, GCHQ, the police and the 66% of passenger movements to and from the UK. intelligence and security agencies were not covered by a This amounts to 80% of all aviation movements and judicial warrant or a warrant from the Secretary of includes 100% of non-EU commercial aviation passengers. State in each of the last five years. [147507] We continue to extend the collection of API data to the maritime and general aviation sectors and are engaging James Brokenshire [holding answer 12 March 2013]: with rail operators in order to maximise data collection. The lawful interception of the content of a communication New capability has been added to the system to enable is governed by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers the processing of API received from all types of transport. Act 2000. Whatever technique is used to effect interception, We continually work to achieve the highest possible the limited circumstances where access to content may coverage, but there are a number of factors which be granted without a warrant, include: potentially limit the volume of passenger data that can If the sender and recipient of a communication have given be captured. These include European Freedom of their permission. Movement legislation and operators’ business models, With the consent of one party, where the surveillance by means especially in the rail sector. Considering these factors, it of the interception is authorised under Part 2 of RIPA (e.g. a kidnapping case, where the police may wish to record a call to is not possible to set absolute targets. trace the kidnapper). Daniel Morgan In terms of the frequency of use of these techniques, as with the practice of previous Governments, we do Emily Thornberry: To ask the Secretary of State for not comment on security matters. the Home Department if she will set a deadline for informing the family of Daniel Morgan whether she Emergency Services will set up an independent inquiry into the circumstances of his death and the subsequent police Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the investigation. [151195] Home Department how often the Joint Emergency Service Interoperability Programme meets; and what its Damian Green [holding answer 17 April 2013]: authority is. [152692] Discussions are continuing with the family and we hope to make an announcement shortly. James Brokenshire: The Joint Emergency Services Interoperability Programme is owned and run by the Deportation: EU Nationals emergency services. The Home Office funds the programme and it receives cross-Government support. The programme Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for governance oversees and directs the development and the Home Department how many EU nationals delivery of the work. The governance consists of: challenged deportation orders in each of the last five years; and how many such challenges were (a) A bi-annual Ministerial Oversight Board, chaired by the Secretary of State for the Home Department and attended by Government successful and (b) unsuccessful. [151154] Ministers from the Home Office, the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Department of Health, and the Mr Harper: The requested data is shown in the following Cabinet Office; senior representatives from the Association of table: Chief Police Officers, Chief Fire Officers Association, and the Table 1: Appeals lodged by EEA nationals against deportation orders (2008-12) Association of Ambulance Chief Executives, Her Majesty’s Chief Year appeal lodged 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Total Inspector of Constabulary and the Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser. A quarterly Strategic Board chaired by a Chief Fire Officer Number of appeals lodged 112 150 260 272 373 1,167 with attendance from the emergency services and Government Of which: Departments. Successful (appeal allowed) 38 54 117 129 132 470 A monthly Programme Board chaired by the Programme Unsuccessful (appeal 39 60 83 75 109 366 Senior Responsible Owner, a Deputy Chief Constable with attendance dismissed) from the emergency services and Government Departments. (a) All figures quoted have been derived from There are also regular meetings of subject matter management information and are therefore provisional experts from the emergency services who are supporting and subject to change. This information has not been the development of the programme. quality assured under National Statistics protocols. Entry Clearances: Iran (b) Data relates to appeals lodged between 1 January 2008 and 31 December 2012. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home (c) Appeal outcomes may have been reached in years Department when she expects the UK Border Agency subsequent to the year the appeal was lodged or may to be able to return passports to Iranian nationals remain outstanding. Appeals awaiting an outcome are making UK visa requests between submitting the not shown in the table above. application and receiving a decision. [152739] 925W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 926W

Mr Harper: We do not routinely return passports to The Deputy Prime Minister: Work on the Scotland visa applicants in between submitting their application analysis programme is being carried out across Government and the entry clearance officer making a decision. In by policy experts in relevant areas. The cost of carrying certain circumstances we do return the passport—currently, out the work is being funded from existing departmental if an Iranian national makes an application to come to budgets in the normal way. the UK through the family migration route in Istanbul, My officials and I engage with a wide variety of we do give the applicant the option of having their individuals and organisations as part of the process of passport returned whilst we process the application. We policy development and delivery. do not currently have any plans to extend this service to My office has not commissioned any external consultants other Iranian applications. in relation to work on the Scotland Analysis programme. Members: Correspondence

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she intends to reply to the ATTORNEY-GENERAL letter to the Minister for Immigration dated 12 March Crown Prosecution Service: Training 2013 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mrs Shannaz Bibi. [152851] Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on many Crown Prosecution Service in-house lawyers (a) 23 April 2013. participated in the agency’s Crown advocacy training course and (b) passed it in each of the last five years. Metropolitan Police [153105]

Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service’s Home Department how many Metropolitan police (CPS) in-house Crown advocacy training consists of officers are working abroad. [151266] three separate courses, each of which must be passed before advocates, whether solicitors or barristers, are Damian Green: The decision as to how police officers permitted to prosecute in the Crown court on behalf of are deployed, and the duties those officers undertake, is the service. Successful completion of both of the Stage an operational matter for the relevant police chief, in 1A and Stage 1B courses enabled the advocate to prosecute association with their PCC (or in the case of the non-trial cases in the Crown court. Successful completion Metropolitan Police Service the Deputy Mayor for Policing). of the Stage 2 course permitted the advocate also to Police: Libya conduct jury trials in the Crown court. The following table shows, in each of the last five Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the years, the number of places taken up by CPS in-house Home Department how many UK police officers are lawyers on each course, and the number of delegates working in Libya; what the cost of such officers has who passed. The number of places includes delegates been to date; and if she will make a statement. [152735] who retook courses. Eliminating the data relating to retakes could be obtained only by consulting individual Damian Green: The Home Office does not hold this course and training records which would incur a data. disproportionate cost.

Stage 1A Stage 1B Stage 2 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Places Passed Places Passed Places Passed 2008-09 241 136 132 89 117 57 Scotland 2009-10 108 53 93 54 65 21 2010-11 34 16 32 10 179 45 Pete Wishart: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister (1) 2011-12 0 n/a 0 n/a 0 n/a what (a) external organisations and (b) individuals his 2012-13 0 n/a 0 n/a 0 n/a Office engaged with as part of the Scotland Analysis programme; and what was discussed at such Staff consultations; [153376] (2) how many members of his Office staff have been Priti Patel: To ask the Attorney-General how many allocated to work on the Scotland Analysis days of work were carried out by officials in (a) the programme; and if he will estimate the cost to the Law Officers’ Departments and (b) each of its agencies public purse of this work; [153377] and non-departmental public bodies on average in each (3) what meetings (a) he and (b) officials in his of the last five years; and what the total salary cost was Office have had with the right hon. Member for of officials in each year. [151099] Edinburgh South West as part of the Scotland Analysis programme; and what was discussed at each such The Attorney-General: The following table shows the meeting; [153378] number of days work carried out by permanent members (4) what work his Office has commissioned by of staff in the Attorney-General’s Office, Her Majesty’s external consultants in relation to work on the Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate and the Treasury Scotland Analysis programme; which consultants were Solicitor’s Department on average in each of the last used; and how much any such consultancy has cost. five years together with the total salary cost for those [153379] officials. 927W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 928W

Coroners Total salary cost2 Days of work1 (£) Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 171,820 44,141,000 Justice (1) what the approximate geographical size is of 2008-09 186,560 47,890,000 each current coroner’s district; [152761] 2009-10 198,440 52,935,000 (2) with reference to his Department’s consultation 2010-11 206,360 53,471,000 CP2/2013, on coroner reforms, what the estimated 2011-12 214,500 56,765,000 geographical size of each coroner area will be; [152838] 1 Estimate calculated as 220 (average working days in year) times number of staff (full-time equivalent). (3) with reference to his Department’s consultation 2 Salary cost includes wages and salaries, social security costs, and paper CP2/2013, on coroner reforms, what the other pension costs. estimated population is of each coroner area; [152841] The number of days of work carried out by officials (4) what estimate he has made of the human in the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and the total population of each coroner district. [152769] salary cost of officials in each of the last five years is detailed in the following table. Mrs Grant: The information requested in the above PQs is not held by the MOJ. Days of work1 Total salary cost (£) Information held by MOJ in relation to coroners is 2008-09 1,848,600 278,712,000 published at: 2009-10 1,887,750 297,419,000 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coroners- 2010-11 1,795,050 291,188,000 statistics-ns 2011-12 1,663,650 294,864,000 The next publication will cover the year 2012 and will 2012-13 1,586,475 271,771,000 be available on the 16 on May 2013. 1 The total number of days worked has been estimated by taking the However some information on size of coroner districts average number of whole time equivalent permanent staff in CPS’s accounts and multiplying by 225 days, which represents the average and their population can be obtained through the Chartered number of days worked in a year. Institute of Public Finance and Accountability: 2 Salary cost represents the total salaries of permanently employed http://www.cipfa.org/ staff for the year. Figures in the accounts for 2008-09 and 2010-11 have been restated. Figures for 2012-13 have not been audited. Criminal Proceedings The SFO does not have a central record of the number of days worked by officials and compiling this information would incur disproportionate cost. However, Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice during the course of this financial year the SFO will be (1) what the average mean number of days was from introducing changes to its HR system which will allow offence to completion, (a) by region and (b) in total employees to record annual leave centrally. for (i) magistrates and (ii) Crown courts in England and Wales in (A) 2011-12 and (B) 2012-13; and if he The following table shows the total pay costs and will make a statement; [153067] total headcount in each of the last five years. (2) what proportion of trials at (a) magistrates and Total pay costs (£ (b) Crown courts were ineffective (i) in total and (ii) by million) Headcount region in (A) 2011-12 and (B) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [153068] 2008-09 23.6 308 2009-10 19.5 312 Mrs Grant: Data relating to the period 2012-13 is due 2010-11 19.9 301 for publication on 20 June 2013, as such this information 2011-12 18.8 306 is currently unavailable. 2012-13 18.5 301 Table 1 presents the average (mean) number of days taken from offence to completion, broken down by region and court type for financial year 2011-12. The JUSTICE time taken from offence to completion is affected by factors such as the complexity of the case and the time Claims Management Services taken to report the crime following the incident. With regards to the proportion of ineffective trials, I Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 29 January Justice whether his Department plans to publish the 2013, Official Report, column 777W. names of claims management companies which are In November last year, the Lord Chancellor and responsible for large numbers of complaints to the Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Claims Management Regulator. [151675] Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), announced as one of his priorities a real drive for a criminal justice Mrs Grant: The Department publishes the names of and court system that works effectively and puts victims claims management companies (CMCs) that have been first. Work is underway to increase both the effectiveness subject to statutory enforcement action, which ranges and efficiency of the criminal justice system. It will look from the imposition of restrictions to CMC licences, to at the whole of the system to drive performance and suspensions and cancellations. The Legal Ombudsman tackle some of the perennial weaknesses so it is quicker, will publish data on closed complaints against CMCs less erratic and more efficient. We will be publishing a once it assumes responsibility for the handling of service strategy and action plan shortly which will set out in complaints against CMCs. detail how we will achieve this. 929W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 930W

Table 1 Average number of days from offence to completion for all criminal cases merits. Decisions to prosecute are taken by prosecutors completed in the magistrates courts and the Crown court, by region, England and Wales, 2011-121, 2, 3 who apply the Code for Crown Prosecutors issued by Average number of days from offence to completion the Director of Public Prosecutions, the most recent Magistrates All completed edition of which was published in January 2013. Region courts4 Crown Court5 criminal cases In relation to the Procurator Fiscal Service, this would London 151 312 163 be a matter for the Lord Advocate. Any legislative Midlands 149 316 160 proposals in respect of the criminal law in Scotland North East 130 295 141 would be a devolved matter for the Scottish Parliament. North West 138 305 149 Northern Ireland South East 145 324 156 South West 141 338 153 Wales 150 276 158 Dr McCrea: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice England 143 311 154 (1) when he last met the Justice Minister in the and Wales Northern Ireland Executive; and what issues were 1 Excludes breaches and cases with an offence to completion time greater than discussed; [150260] 10 years. 2 Statistics are sourced from the CREST linked court data and included around (2) what recent discussions he has had with the 95% of completed cases. Northern Ireland Executive about probation service 3 Only one offence is counted for each defendant in the case. If two or more provision. [150922] cases complete on the same day, the case with the longest duration is included. 4 Included cases completed in the magistrates courts during the specified time period, where no further action is required by the magistrates courts, excluding Jeremy Wright: The Lord Chancellor and Secretary committals. of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member 5 Included all criminal cases which have received a verdict and concluded in the specified time period, in the Crown court. for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), had a meeting Data source: with David Ford, the Northern Ireland Justice Minister Libra Management Information System Timeliness Analysis Report (TAR) on 6 February 2013 in Belfast. This was an introductory and CREST linked court data, HM Courts and Tribunals Service Source: meeting at which we discussed matters of mutual interest Criminal Courts Statistics, Justice Statistics Analytical Services, Ministry of in relation to justice policy. Justice Disclosure of Information Personal Injury: Compensation

John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Justice what assessment he has made of the adequacy for Justice when the Government plans to publish the of the legal protection afforded to whistleblowers who response to its consultation entitled Reducing the disclose information relating to the use of public funds. Number and Costs of Whiplash Claims. [152328] [153092] Mrs Grant: The ‘Reducing the number and cost of Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of whiplash claims’ consultation closed on 8 March 2013. the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Submissions received from stakeholders are currently being analysed. The Government will publish its response The Government has made no specific consideration in due course. of the protection afforded to those who make disclosures about the use of public funds. The Government believe Staff whistleblowing protections are working well overall and in keeping with a recent commitment, will shortly be Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice issuing a call for evidence to establish if there is a case how many days of work were carried out by officials in for making changes further to the ones already included (a) his Department and (b) each of its agencies and in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill. non-departmental public body on average in each of Gender Recognition the last five years; and what the total salary cost was of officials in each year. [151111]

Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mrs Grant: The MOJ staff paybill has reduced by what existing guidance is in place for the Crown £330 million since 2009. Prosecution Service and Procurator Fiscal Service on The average total number of days that should be the prosecution of transgender individuals who have worked by each member of staff in the Ministry of not revealed their gender history; what assessment he Justice, its agencies and non-departmental public bodies has made of the recent implementation of such is 225. For the purposes of departmental calculations, guidelines; and if he will (a) introduce further, this takes into account weekends, bank holidays, privilege amended guidance and (b) bring forward legislative days, and assumes 25 annual leave days for everyone. proposals following recent cases of alleged deception being used as a reason to prosecute transgender Tables showing details of the end of year figures for individuals for sexual offences. [151043] full time equivalent (FTE) staff, the average number of days worked and the pay bill throughout each of those Mrs Grant: The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) years is set out as follows. has no specific guidance on the prosecution of transgender The tables exclude working days lost to sickness people who have not revealed their gender history. absence. For this, I refer my hon. Friend to the answer There are no current plans to introduce such guidance from my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford or related legislative proposals. Prosecutors in England (Damian Green), on 21 March 2013, Official Report, and Wales consider each case on its own facts and column 820W. 931W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 932W

Details for the financial year 2012-13 are not currently Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to my answer available as they are currently being produced and will of 6 March 2013, Official Report, columns 1021-22W. be available on the Justice pages of the: www.yougov.co.uk Bahrain website in the year. A link to the website is as follows: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/corporate-reports Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions his Tables showing total MOJ Pay Bill and FTE at the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State had with his end of each financial year for the period 31 March 2009 counterparts in the government of Bahrain about law to 31 March 2012 are as follows: enforcement and human rights in advance of the Formula One Grand Prix in that country. [152833] Payroll FTE End of year total Organisation as at 31 March days worked Payroll Paybill for name 2012 (FTE) 2010-12 (£) Alistair Burt: I regularly discuss law enforcement and human rights in Bahrain with Bahraini Ministers. MOJ 66,589.68 14,982,678.00 2,391,486,501 Agencies 598.51 134,664.75 22,755,499 During my visit in March I raised areas in which we ALB/NDPB 2,260.03 508,506.75 84,941,667 have concerns with a variety of interlocutors, and discussed Total 69,448.22 15,625,849.50 2,499,183,668 how the UK can support the Bahraini Government with further reforms as recommended by the Bahrain Payroll FTE End of year total Independent Commission of Inquiry and the United Organisation as at 31 March days worked Payroll Paybill for Nations Human Rights Council. name 2011 (FTE) 2010-11 (£) The ambassador specifically raised the Grand Prix MOJ HQ 72,760.20 16,371,045.00 2,621,180,445 during his meeting with the Interior Minister last week, Agencies 5,437.92 1,223,532.00 210,215,547 ahead of the race. ALB/NDPB 2,246.53 505,469.25 88,642,124 We were pleased and encouraged to see the event take Total 80,444.65 18,100,046.25 2,920,038,116 place peacefully, with security forces exercising restraint and citizens taking part in legitimate and peaceful Payroll FIE as End of year total demonstrations. Organisation at 31 March days worked Payroll Paybill for name 2010 (FTE) 2009-10 (£) Chad: Niger MOJ 74,207.21 16,696,622.25 2,517,067,639 Other Agencies 6,087.75 1,369,743.75 230,598,000 Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for ALB/NDPB 2,213.55 498,048.75 83,502,000 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Total 82,508.51 18,564,414.75 2,831,167,639 assessment he has made of safety on the border between Chad and Niger. [152140] Payroll FTE as End of year total Payroll at 31 March days worked Paybill for Mark Simmonds: Our assessment of the safety on the Organisation name 2009 (FTE) 2008-09 (£) border between Chad and Niger is reflected in our MOJ HQ 76,460.89 17,203,700.25 0 Travel Advice published at: Agencies 0.00 0.00 0 www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice ALB/NDPB 0.00 0.00 0 We advise against all travel to within 30km of the Total 76,460.89 17,203,700.25 0 border on the Chadian side and advise against all travel Notes: to the regions bordering Chad in Niger. 1. Single source paybill figures for 2009 are not available as the Ministry has only been collecting them since March 2010 as a Cabinet Office requirement. Guinea-Bissau Probation Trusts paybill figures are also are unavailable as the Ministry does not hold the data centrally. 2. For 2011-12, ″MOJ″ includes Ministry of Justice (HQ), HM Courts and Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Tribunals Service, National Offender Management Service, the Office of the Public Guardian, and the UK Supreme Court. ″Other agencies″ include The and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has National Archives. NDPBs for the period include the Criminal Cases Review received on the arrest of the UK consul-general in Commission, Information Commissioner’s Office, Judicial Appointments Guinea-Bissau; and whether he plans to appoint a Commission, Legal Services Board, Legal Services Commission, Parole Board, Probation Trusts and the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales. replacement consul-general. [152860] 3. Payroll Bill details for the 35 England and Wales Probation Trusts are not available for the year 2011-12. Mark Simmonds: We have no plans to replace our 4. For 2010-11, those business areas within ″MOJ″ are the same as in 2011-12, but also include the Scotland and Wales Offices, and the then separated HM honorary-consul in Guinea-Bissau, Mr Jan van Maanen. Court Service and HM Tribunals Service. Media reporting in early April that Mr van Maanen 5. ″Other agencies″ were The National Archives and The Land Registry. had been arrested was incorrect. 6. NDPBs for the period remain the same as 2011-12. Human Rights FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Arms Trade: Treaties Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what criteria his Department uses to assess whether a country is Martin Caton: To ask the Secretary of State for included as a country of concern or as a case study in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it its annual human rights report. [153144] his policy to support an international prohibition of weapons that once activated can select and engage Mr Lidington: The primary criterion for inclusion as targets without further intervention from human a country of concern is the gravity of the human rights operators. [152589] situation in the country, including both the severity of 933W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 934W particular abuses and the range of human rights affected. Alistair Burt: We have not raised these specific issues The other criteria considered are: whether a deterioration with the Israeli authorities or with Union of European or improvement in the human rights situation in the Football Associations (UEFA). country would have a wider impact in the region; whether We do however remain deeply concerned about the human rights situation in the country has an impact restrictions on freedom of movement from the west on wider UK interests; and the level of UK activity and bank and Gaza. Through our embassy in Tel Aviv, we engagement in that country. frequently lobby the appropriate authorities on the issue of movement and access. We continue to work Iran closely with the Quartet and EU partners, and to call on Israel to ease restrictions on access on all occasions Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign including the UEFA Under-21 football championship, and Commonwealth Affairs what monitoring his which will take place in Israel in June. Department will undertake of the forthcoming We hope that the tournament will create opportunities elections in Iran. [152828] to use football to break down barriers between Israelis and Palestinians. Alistair Burt: Iran has a duty to comply with its obligations under international law to protect its citizens’ Jordan rights. The UK will be monitoring the Iranian elections through reports from our diplomatic network, international Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for bodies, and media to see whether these obligations are Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent met. The UK has no desire to interfere in the Iranian assessment he has made of the progress of the political electoral process; we have made clear on many occasions reform agenda in Jordan. [152856] that the Government of Iran is a matter for the Iranian people. The UK does not seek to change the Government Alistair Burt: We welcome the progress achieved during of Iran. We shall continue to speak out against abuses the January parliamentary elections. The EU Election of human rights in Iran, as we do for other countries Observation Mission, headed by David Martin MEP, around the world. similarly praised the technical improvements achieved to date, while making important recommendations on Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign how to achieve political reform, including changes to and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he the electoral system. We support these recommendations has had with the High Representative of the European and encourage Jordan to maintain momentum on political Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy on Iran. reform. [152829] Mongolia Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has a regular dialogue Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions with the EU High Representative on a range of issues, he has had with the Mongolian government to ensure including Iran. They most recently discussed Iran at that UK-based companies will be awarded contracts in the G8 Foreign Ministers meeting in London, on respect of the extraction of natural minerals in that 10-11 April, where G8 Ministers reaffirmed their desire country; and what steps he is taking to ensure that any for a peaceful and negotiated resolution to the nuclear such extraction is undertaken in a sustainable manner. issue, and indicated that talks could not continue indefinitely. [152604] Iraq Mr Swire: We are working hard to build a stronger trading relationship with Mongolia for the mutual benefit of both countries. The extraction of natural minerals in Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Mongolia is an important catalyst to Mongolia’s economic for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether any growth and we have highlighted to the Mongolian representative of the Government has visited (a) Government the expertise that British companies offer Camp Ashraf and (b) Camp Liberty in Iraq. [152186] in this area. In February, I met Tsagaan Puntsag, the Chief of Staff to the President of Mongolia, where I Alistair Burt: Our embassy in Baghdad monitors the discussed this issue. I also hosted the biennial situation at Camp Ashraf and Camp Liberty closely, UK—Mongolia Round Table talks in November 2012 and officials from our embassy have visited both Camps. where I discussed with the Mongolia Deputy Foreign The most recent visit was in September 2012, when one Minister Damba Gankhuyag commercial opportunities of our officials accompanied an EU delegation to Camp for both countries. Opportunities in Mongolia’s extractive Liberty. industries were an important part of these discussions. In order to promote further opportunities for UK Israel companies in Mongolia, UKTI have recently opened an office in Ulaanbaatar to support UK firms doing business Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign in a sustainable manner. and Commonwealth Affairs what representations his Department has made to (a) UEFA and (b) the North Korea government of Israel on (i) access to tickets and (ii) free movement across borders for football fans from the Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign West Bank and Gaza during the UEFA under-21 and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has football tournament in Israel in June 2013. [153093] made of allegations made by North Korea defector, 935W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 936W

Hwang Jang-yop, that Iran made available the for the Foreign Compensation Commission, Wilton blueprints of the Urenco uranium enrichment Park and the Westminster Foundation for Democracy technology to North Korea in exchange for North are not recorded by expenditure type, but by project or Korean Nodong missiles. [152797] event. They are therefore unable to segregate the working lunches element from other expenses relating to an Alistair Burt: North Korea supplies a range of individual project without disproportionate costs. conventional arms to customers worldwide and has FCO Services provided the following data: supplied goods in support of ballistic missile programmes, including to Iran. £ We are unaware of any allegations made by Hwang Jang-yop of a nuclear connection between Iran and 2012-13 2,269.98 North Korea. In 2010, Hwang did report that North 2011-12 756.19 Korea had sold missiles to Iran, and we are aware that 2010-11 5,602.79 North Korea did indeed sell NODONG missiles to Iran 2009-10 4,666.38 in the 1990s. However, Hwang denied there had been a 2008-09 3,525.79 nuclear connection between the countries. I will write to the hon. Member when the data is Official Hospitality available for British Council and the Great China Centre and a copy will be placed in the Library of the House. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many officials in (a) his Department and (b) the non-departmental public Palestinians bodies for which he is responsible claimed reimbursements for working lunches and official Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign entertainment in each of the last five years; and what and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has the total cost was in each such year. [152669] made of current reconciliation talks between Hamas and Fattah. [152830] Alistair Burt: (a) The Foreign and Commonwealth Office undertakes a vast range of activities to establish Alistair Burt: We continue to follow closely developments and maintain diplomatic contacts throughout our network regarding the issue of reconciliation between Hamas of over 260 overseas posts, as well as diplomatic activity and Fatah. The British Government’s position, and that in-the UK to promote British interests. This includes of the EU, remains that Palestinian reconciliation, if meetings and events hosted for political and business agreed on the basis of the principles set out by President delegations (including those in support of UK Trade Abbas in his speech of 4 May 2011, would be a positive and Industry) which range in size from large trade step for the unity of a future Palestinian state and for delegations to small working lunches with key senior reaching a two state solution. contacts. Any such spending is undertaken for business reasons and expenditure on hospitality is kept under close scrutiny to ensure value for money and effectiveness, Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign in accordance with HM Treasury guidance. and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has Total costs for business hospitality and official made of political developments within the Palestinian representation in UK and our missions overseas were: Authority. [152832]

£ Alistair Burt: Dr Salam Fayyad resigned as Palestinian Prime Minister on 13 April 2013. Dr Fayyad made an 2012-13 8,816,318.72 outstanding contribution to Palestinian state-building, 2011-12 8,206,034.33 as Finance Minister then as Prime Minister. He was a 2010-11 7,840,245.44 close partner to successive British Governments and 2009-10 9,115,834.45 thanks to his dedication and energy, the Palestinian 2008-09 10,188,722.93 Authority took great strides forward in building the institutions necessary for a Palestinian state. Palestinian As part of its commitment to transparency, the FCO institutions are now stronger and more transparent. publishes the business expenses and hospitality of its Despite serious economic constraints, the World Bank, senior London-based staff. These include travel costs International Monetary Fund and UN last year all said and are subject to detailed Cabinet Office and internal that the Palestinian Authority has the capacity to be a guidance and regular audit. Details can be found at: functioning state in important sectors. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fco-senior-staff- expenses-and-hospitality This development is a reminder of the urgency of All FCO expenditure on Government Procurement returning to negotiations on a two-state solution. We cards is published online and can be seen at: need to see a clear path leading to a viable, independent Palestinian state, based on 1967 borders with agreed https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government- land swaps, living in peace and security with Israel. The procurement-card-data vital work of Palestinian state-building must go on. (b) The FCO does not hold data for non-departmental 2013 is a crucial year for middle east peace. The UK will public bodies. We have received the following responses: continue to work the President Abbas, Prime Minister The Marshall Aid Commemoration Commission have Netanyahu and US and EU partners, to urge the necessary not incurred expenditure on entertainment costs. Expenses progress. 937W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 938W

Pay Alistair Burt: The information is as follows. (a) The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for publishes this information in its annual reports and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the cost to accounts. The FCO runs exit schemes in accordance the public purse of the London location allowance was with the Civil Service Compensation Scheme. All schemes in each of the last 10 years. [152476] run across the civil service are approved by the Cabinet Office. Alistair Burt: The FCO introduced the London location allowance in 2005. It is funded from savings made in the The FCO has run a range of voluntary early exit FCO’s overseas allowances budget. schemes (Flexible Early Retirement and Flexible Early The cost of the London location allowance in previous Severance). The current voluntary exit scheme has been years has been: in existence since December 2010. Under the reformed scheme, all costs fall within the year of departure. The £ NAO estimate that exits under the existing scheme cost around 40% to 50% less than under the previous 2012-13 7,824,751 compensation scheme. The reformed scheme also allows 2011-12 7,530,325 for greater distinction between voluntary and compulsory 2010-11 7,177,054 exits and is designed to encourage voluntary rather than 2009-10 6,339,157 compulsory departures. 2008-09 6,279,903 131 staff left the FCO in 2010-11 under the voluntary exit scheme, at a cost of £15.3 million. 118 of these left In the financial years 2005-06 to 2007-08 this allowance under the terms of the previous compensation scheme was included as part of the overall pay bill and it would (under which costs could extend for up to 10 years from incur disproportionate costs to separate it out. departure). Policy Programme Evaluation Board 89 staff left in 2011-12 under the voluntary exit scheme at a cost of £5.3 million. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for The method for calculating payments under the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) how many compensation scheme was modified between the publication times the Policy Programme Evaluation Board has met of the 2009-10 and 2010-11 accounts. Although we ran since its creation; and on what dates; [152475] early exit schemes in previous years, we do not have (2) what the names are of those who sit on his comparable data for these years. It would incur Department’s Policy Programme Evaluation Board. disproportionate costs to search individual files to determine [152477] exact numbers and cost. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s (b) The FCO does not hold data for non-departmental (FCO) Policy Programme Evaluation Board has met public bodies. We have received the following information: five times since its creation and is due to meet again on FCO Services: Monday 29 April 2013. The previous meetings have 2010-11 to £1,546,399, average £36,819 (42 officers left)—in been held on: the annual report 2010-11 £2.030 million (includes CILON, annual 27 July 2011 leave payments, additional pensions etc), see page 38 (text) and page 67 (detail). 9 November 2011 29 February 2012 2011-12—£1,077,345, average £35,912 (30 officers left)—in the annual report 2011-12 £1.5 million (includes CILON, annual 17 May 2012 leave payments, additional pensions etc). 14 September 2012 Great Britain China Centre (GBCC) have not run any exit The FCO Policy Programme Evaluation Board is schemes. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy (WFD) Chaired by Ann Cormack, a Non-Executive. The Members ran a single exit scheme in 2009-10 at a cost of £116,000. are: I will write to my hon. Friend when the data is David Lidington, Minister for Europe available for British Council and a copy will be placed Barbara Woodward, FCO Director-General Economic and in the Library of the House. Consular Iain Walker, FCO Finance Director Sexual Offences Julia Bond. Non-Executive Neil Wigan, Her Majesty’s Ambassador Kinshasa Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Martin Harris. Her Majesty’s Ambassador Bucharest Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has (a) (b) Carolyn Miller, Non-Executive been made by UK experts working in Bosnia, the Syrian border and (c) Libya as part of the Department for International Development (DFID) representative (to be confirmed, following a change in personnel). Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative in each of the last six months. [153129] Redundancy Pay Mark Simmonds: Each deployment of the UK Team Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of Experts (TOE) builds local capacity to prevent and and Commonwealth Affairs how many officials in (a) respond to the problem of sexual violence in conflict his Department and (b) each of the non-departmental and is designed to take account of the specific context public bodies for which he is responsible received in which the team operates. The UK TOE deployed to payments under a voluntary exit scheme in each of the Bosnia in March to provide training to Bosnian judges last five years; and at what total cost in each such year. and prosecutors to strengthen their capacity to prosecute [152650] and adjudicate wartime sexual violence crimes in accordance 939W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 940W with international standards. In March, the team deployed African Union Mission to Somalia and Somali Government to Libya where they assessed how the UK can provide troops. However, security remains a serious concern. further assistance in terms of building local capacity Recent gains are fragile and we strongly condemn the across police, justice and health services to support recent attacks in Mogadishu, which killed at least 28 people. survivors of sexual violence. In December last year, the President Hassan Sheikh Mohamud has said that security team deployed to the Syrian border to train Syrian is his top priority and we are supporting his Government health care professionals in how to respond to reports to develop effective, professional and accountable security of sexual violence. Each deployment has also examined forces, including through the Somalia conference in how the UK can further support each country and London on 7 May. follow-up deployments are planned over the next 12 months. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs if the government of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his goals are Somaliland will be participating in the conference on for (a) the UK Presidency of the UN Security Council Somalia in May. [152825] and (b) the 67th session of the UN General Assembly in relation to the G8 Declaration on Preventing Sexual Violence in Conflict. [153142] Mark Simmonds: The UK very much hoped to see Somaliland Government at the Somalia conference. Mark Simmonds: We will use the UK presidency of However, the Somaliland authorities have now responded the Security Council in June and the 67th session of the formally to inform us that they will not be attending. General Assembly to build a wider global coalition behind the Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative to overcome Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for the political and practical barriers to tackling the culture Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent of impunity for sexual violence in conflict. This will discussions he has had with the government of Somalia include garnering broad international support for the on the prevention of sexual violence and securing historic Declaration adopted by the G8 on 11 April justice for the victims of sexual violence. [153145] 2013. This Declaration contains a number of UN specific G8 commitments, including the implementation of relevant Mark Simmonds: The Secretary of State for Foreign UN Security Council Resolutions, the deployment of and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the women protection advisers in all UN peacekeeping and Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has spoken political missions and ensuring training of international to the Somali President Hassan Sheikh Mohamud a peacekeepers on sexual violence issues. We will also use number of times on this issue, most recently on 14 April. upcoming UN opportunities to develop the new Prevention of sexual violence in conflict will be highlighted international protocol on the investigation and at the Somalia conference which the Prime Minister will documentation of sexual violence in conflict. co-host with President Hassan Sheikh Mohamud on Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for 7 May.We will seek commitments from those in attendance Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with which to tackle sexual violence in conflict in Somalia. members of the UN Security Council he plans to We have also been working with the UN Special discuss the G8 Declaration on Preventing Sexual Representative to the Secretary General (SRSG) on Violence in Conflict in advance of the UK’s presidency Sexual Violence in Conflict, Zainab Hawa Bangura. in June 2013. [153143] She visited Somalia at the start of April and started a dialogue with the Federal Government of Somalia on Mark Simmonds: We will use the UK presidency of combating sexual violence in conflict. We expect her the Security Council in June to build a wider global team to visit in the summer to work with the Somali coalition behind the Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative authorities on recommendations for combating sexual to overcome the political and practical barriers to tackling violence in Somalia and improving the justice system. the culture of impunity for sexual violence in conflict. This includes garnering the support of members of the Security Council for the historic Declaration adopted Syria by the G8 on 11 April 2013. The Declaration was agreed by the three members of the G8 who are also Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign member of the Security Council and we have shared the and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has Declaration with all other council members. We will made of the recent decision taken by the Arab League discuss it in more detail with them prior to our presidency to transfer the Syrian seat from the Assad regime to the in June. Syrian opposition. [152831] Somalia Alistair Burt: We are keen that the Syrian National Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Coalition’s views are taken seriously in international and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has forums, and are pleased that the Arab League has taken received on the security situation in Mogadishu. this action. This demonstrates the increasing credibility [152824] of the Coalition as a political organisation. It is also a welcome sign of the increasing support behind the Mark Simmonds: We keep the security situation in Coalition in the region. Although international credibility Mogadishu under constant review, including through is important, it is imperative for the Coalition to continue monitoring and talking to key partners. We have seen reaching out to and winning over ordinary Syrians on important security gains made across Somalia in the the ground and increasing its representation among last year and commend the commitment and bravery of minorities and women. 941W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 942W

Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has assessment he has made of the effect of Syrian refugees made of the current (a) political and (b) security on the political reform agenda in Jordan. [152857] situation in Zambia. [152827]

Alistair Burt: We pay tribute to Jordan’s role in Mark Simmonds: There was a peaceful transfer of hosting the rising numbers of Syrian refugees as the power in Zambia in 2011 following the electoral victory pressure on the Jordanian system grows unabated. With of the Patriotic Front. While there is an active civil almost 2,000 refugees arriving daily, there are now over society in Zambia, much of the media is government- 400,000 refugees in the country. The UK is providing controlled. In February the opposition complained to significant humanitarian assistance to support in this the Commonwealth about government violations of regard. We also continue to call on our international democratic space; we regard some of the claims as partners to fulfil their pledges of assistance and support exaggerated. Security is generally good, though there is Jordan in coping with the humanitarian crisis which some crime. For example, there is sometimes unruly impacts on Jordan both economically and politically. behaviour at political rallies and during by-election The scale of the international refugee crisis is a further campaigns and a Zambian died during a clash during a reason why the violence in Syria must end urgently. local election campaign in November 2012. Despite these external pressures parliamentary elections were held in January and following consultation with the new Parliament a new Prime Minister was appointed. EDUCATION We welcome the progress achieved during January’s 16-19 Bursary Fund elections. The EU Election Observation Mission, headed by David Martin MEP, similarly praised the technical John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for improvements achieved to date, while making important Education pursuant to the answer of 15 April 2013, recommendations on how to achieve political reform, Official Report, column 118W, on 16-19 Bursary Fund: including changes to the electoral system. We support Barrow in Furness, what statistics on take-up of the these recommendations and encourage Jordan to maintain 16-19 Bursary Fund are being collected centrally, momentum for political reform. including regional and demographic breakdowns. [152331] Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Mr Laws [holding answer 22 April 2013]: Data covering assessment has been made of the effect on the Syrian 2012/13 and subsequent years is being collected through economy of the civil war in that country. [152858] the School Census and Individual Learner Record covering the number of young people awarded discretionary and Alistair Burt: Since the start of the conflict the Syrian vulnerable group bursaries at each provider. This will economy has lost significant momentum as the economy not include the value of bursaries awarded. has suffered from inflations, and substantial devaluation The data will enable regional and demographic of the Syrian pound. breakdowns by age, gender and ethnicity if the data Syrian families have faced hardship as the cost of collected is of sufficient quality. living has increased. As government spending has become Management information covering the number and increasingly redirected to support the military effort, value of vulnerable group bursaries and the number of the provision of public services has become limited. The discretionary bursaries awarded at a sample of providers conflict has affected the livelihoods of average Syrians in 2011/12 has been collected by the Education Funding especially workers in the agricultural and manufacturing Agency. This has provided national level statistics which sectors, where high unemployment and the loss of income we aim to publish in the first Independent Evaluation has put further financial strain on individuals. Interim Report in May 2013. This management information This has resulted in increased dependence on informal will also be collected in subsequent years. networks and markets and migration to neighbouring Academies: Finance countries for survival. Zambia John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Education on what grounds he is able to revoke an academy funding agreement. [146032] Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has Mr Laws: The grounds for terminating an academy made of the judiciary process in Zambia. [152826] funding agreement vary depending on the specific clauses of the individual funding agreement. Academy funding Mark Simmonds: The Zambian constitution and law agreements are available in the School Performance provides for an independent judiciary. However, the section of the Department’s website. judicial system is hammered by inefficiency and a lack The latest model funding agreement allows the Secretary of trained personnel and resources. Although the law of State for Education to give seven years’ notice of his requires that a detainee appear before court within intention to terminate the funding agreement. He can 24 hours of arrest, detainees are routinely held for much also terminate it: longer periods. Trial procedures are reasonable, though following the issue of a termination warning notice for example, many defendants cannot afford a lawyer. According to on the grounds of unacceptable standards or a breakdown in human rights groups there have been cases of arbitrary governance or management; arrest and detention. We also understand that prison following a ’special measures’ or ’requires significant improvement’ conditions can be harsh. judgment from Ofsted; 943W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 944W

if the academy is struck off the register of independent schools; Mr Laws: The Education Funding Agency (EFA) has in the case of insolvency (or serious risk of insolvency); or already taken steps to develop financial management where there has been a change of control of the academy trust and accountability in academies and free schools. or the legal entity that controls it and he is not satisfied that the A new financial handbook was published in September new person is suitable. 2012, placing more emphasis on the role of the accounting officer, and is focused very clearly on the requirements John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for of the academy trust. Education what procedure his Department follows in From 2011/12 academy trust accounting officers were investigating potential financial irregularities in required to sign a new statement relating to their academies; and upon which grounds the Education responsibilities for regularity, propriety and compliance Funding Agency commences an investigation into with the terms and conditions of their funding. potential financial irregularities in academies. [152924] This statement provides the basis for an enhanced Mr Laws: Information relating to potential financial regularity audit by academy external auditors, which irregularities within academy trusts may arise from tests propriety and regularity in the use of public funds. various sources, and the Education Funding Agency These audits began in autumn 2012 with an external (EFA) determines its response depending upon the source audit regularity opinion included in the 2011/12 Statement of information as well as the nature of the complaint or of Accounts. This provides independent professional allegation. review. Information could arise from: The EFA continues to place importance on building networks within the sector as a driver of improvement. A review of an academy’s financial returns by EFA staff; It has established working groups with sector representatives Information disclosed by the academy’s external auditors; including academies and auditors to develop the financial Management of the academy seeking advice (as to how a accountability framework. particular situation should be dealt with); or The Department’s accountability system sets out a A complaint or whistleblowing allegation by a member of staff, parent or third party. robust accountability framework for academies and free schools. In general terms, and depending on the nature of the information, the procedure would be as follows: In July 2012 the Department published academies’ spend data at a per-pupil level on its website for the first The EFA would determine whether the information obtained time. It is continuing to explore how it can make this related to a matter that was within its areas of responsibility. If the matter falls within the EFA’s remit, the EFA would seek information more directly comparable with that provided further information to establish whether there is substance to the for maintained schools, and it will be setting out the matter which was thought to be of potential concern. This may arrangements for providing additional academy level involve a number of potential steps from a simple request to the information as part of the accounting arrangements for academy to provide additional clarification to a more formalised 2012/13. review. Fact-finding has a number of potential outcomes. These include: As well as providing greater transparency, this is also aimed at sharing benchmarking information across the Conclusion that there is no case to answer; sector so that areas for improvement in financial Conclusion that the matter is immaterial and so no further management can be identified. action is required; Conclusion that the matter requires action on the part of the John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for academy to remedy the situation; and Education with reference to the findings of the Conclusion that the facts point to a situation where there may National Audit Office report, Managing the expansion be further and more serious matters to be discovered. In these of the Academies Programme, published in November circumstances the EFA would commission a formal investigation. If the matter is an irregularity issue the case would be investigated 2012, if he will publish more detailed financial data for by External Assurance, if it was clear that fraud had taken place academies and free schools including (a) data that the investigation would be undertaken by the Department’s Internal allows fuller comparison between academies and Audit Investigation Team (IAIT). maintained schools and (b) fuller academy-level Where the IAIT receives a referral from the EFA and financial data. [152926] an investigation is appropriate, Terms of Reference are agreed with the EFA and the investigation would proceed. Mr Laws: In July 2012, the Department for Education The overall responsibility for the work remains with the published academies’ spend data at a per-pupil level for EFA. At the completion of the work, the IAIT produces the first time. It is continuing to make it as directly a report for the EFA with recommendations. Where comparable as it can. There are areas where data will fraud has been found this may lead to police referral not be directly comparable, such as where an academy and recovery of funds. receives funding for services which are provided free to maintained schools by the local authority. John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for The audited financial statements prepared by academy Education with reference to the Comptroller and trusts presently contain high level financial information Auditor General’s report on the Young People’s on individual academies within multi academy trusts. Learning Agency’s 2011-12 accounts and the National The Education Funding Agency will consider how more Audit Office report, Managing the expansion of the financial information about individual academies can Academies Programme, published in November 2012, be made easily accessible and will be setting out the what steps he is taking to increase effective financial arrangements for providing additional academy level management and accountability in academies and free information as part of the accounting arrangements for schools. [152925] 2012/13. 945W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 946W

John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Barking and Dagenham London Borough Education how many (a) academies and (b) free Bath and North East Somerset Council schools were monitored by the Education Funding Bournemouth Borough Council Agency as being at financial risk in each month since Bristol City Council May 2010. [152928] Buckinghamshire County Council Mr Laws: Since being established on 1 April 2012, the Cambridgeshire County Council Education Funding Agency (EFA) has been responsible Central Bedfordshire Council for monitoring financial risk presented by academies Cheshire West and Chester Council and free schools. Academies and free schools are collectively Cornwall County Council risk-assessed on an ongoing basis. As free schools have Cumbria County Council academy trust legal status, the EFA does not distinguish Derby City Council between academies and free schools when considering Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council those at risk. The number of those academies and free schools that were assessed as presenting a higher financial Barnet London Borough risk for each month since April 2012 are as follows: Bexley London Borough Bracknell Forest Borough Council Number Bromley London Borough Calderdale Metropolitan Borough Council April 2012 34 Camden London Borough May 2012 34 June 2012 34 Cheshire East Council July 2012 34 City of London August 2012 34 Croydon London Borough September 2012 34 Darlington Borough Council October 2012 34 Derbyshire County Council November 2012 36 Dudley Metropolitan Borough Council December 2012 36 Ealing London Borough January 2013 37 Essex County Council February 2013 45 Gloucestershire County Council March 2013 46 Hammersmith and Fulham London Borough April 2013 44 Harrow London Borough It should be noted that within this period the number Hertfordshire County Council of academies has increased from 1,806 in April 2012 to Isle of Wight Council 2,986 in April 2013. This means that the percentage of Islington London Borough academies assessed as presenting higher financial risk Kingston Upon Thames Royal Borough has fallen from 1.9% to 1.5%. Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council Academies: Pay Lancashire County Council Leicester City Council John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Lewisham London Borough Education if he will list the salaries of the heads of Manchester City Council each academy trust in the academic year 2010-11. Merton London Borough [152929] Newcastle Upon Tyne City Council North Somerset Council Mr Laws: Academy trusts are required to disclose Northamptonshire County Council information on the salaries of senior staff in their audited financial statements. These are published on Nottinghamshire County Council the academy trust’s website and are also available from Oxfordshire County Council Companies House. All academy trust accounts are also Plymouth City Council published annually on the Department for Education’s Portsmouth City Council website and accounts for 2010-11 were published in July Redbridge London Borough 2012. Information about the salaries of senior staff Richmond Upon Thames London Borough contained within the 2010-11 financial statements has Sefton Metropolitan Borough Council not been centrally collated and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Enfield London Borough Gateshead Council Children in Care Hackney Haringey London Borough Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Hartlepool Borough Council Education which local authorities have signed up to the Hounslow London Borough Care Leavers Charter to date. [152713] Isles of Scilly Mr Timpson [holding answer 22 April 2013]: The Kent County Council following 95 local authorities have so far agreed to sign Kirklees Metropolitan Council up to the principles of the Care Leavers Charter: Lambeth Council 947W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 948W

Leeds City Council Children’s centre Location Minister Leicestershire County Council Luton Borough Council Stonegrove Children’s Centre Edgeware Edward Timpson Beaumont Leys Children’s Leicester Sarah Teather Medway Council Centre Middlesbrough Council Bligh Sure Start Children’s Rochester Sarah Teather Norfolk County Council Centre North Tyneside Council Clayton Sure Start Children’s Clayton, Manchester Sarah Teather Centre Northumberland County Council

Oldham Council Other childcare provision Location Minister Peterborough City Council Durand Academy Early Years Stockwell, Elizabeth Truss Poole Borough Council Centre (On two separate occasions) London Reading Borough Council Parkview Day Nursery Leicester Sarah Teather Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council Church Street Nursery London Sarah Teather Salford City Council Marsham Street Community Westminster, Elizabeth Truss Nursery London Shropshire County Council Early Years Childcare Nursery Worthing Tim Loughton South Gloucestershire Council Greengables Nursery Sandhurst, Tim Loughton Staffordshire County Council Berkshire Stockton on Tees Borough Council Abbots Manor Community Nursery London Nick Gibb Pimlico Academy—breakfast club Pimlico, London Elizabeth Truss Suffolk County Council and out of hours provision Surrey County Council Norwich Free School—out of hours Norwich Elizabeth Truss Swindon Borough Council provision Tower Hamlets London Borough Children: Internet Waltham Forest London Borough Warrington Borough Council Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Wiltshire County Council Education with reference to his Department’s response York Council to the consultation on parental internet controls, South Tyneside Metropolitan Borough Council published in December 2012, what progress the Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council Government has made in identifying and defining Stoke on Trent City Council those children who are most at risk from accessing Sunderland City Council explicit internet material. [152619] Sutton London Borough Mr Timpson: The UK Council for Child Internet Torbay Council Safety Evidence Group has been looking at vulnerable Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council groups since January 2012, when it produced a paper Wandsworth Borough Council “Identifying Vulnerable Children Online And What West Sussex County Council Strategies Can Help Them”. The group is now building Wirral Metropolitan Borough Council on this work to develop a holistic model for predicting risk and vulnerability, and to develop professional guidance Children: Day Care for timely interventions to prevent harm to children online. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Children: Poverty Education (1) which childcare settings each of his Ministers have visited in an official capacity since May Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010; [151032] Education in what form responses to the Government’s (2) which Sure Start children’s centres each of his consultation on Measuring Child Poverty will be Ministers have visited in an official capacity since May published. [144123] 2010. [151033] Mr Laws: The consultation on better measures of Elizabeth Truss: The following tables shows Ministers’ child poverty closed on 15 February and a large volume official visits to childcare settings in England including of responses was received. to children’s centres (Sure Start children’s centres) since All responses will be read and analysed to ensure that May 2010. all important points are captured and used to help Ministers decide on the next steps. The Government has Children’s centre Location Minister not decided in what form its response will be published, Marsham Street Children’s Westminster, London NickGibb but any response will be available on the Department’s Centre website. Lemon Tree Children’s North Bransholme, Sarah Teather Centre Hull Children’s Centres Little Stars Children’s Centre East Hull Sarah Teather Chapeltown Children’s Chapeltown, Leeds Elizabeth Truss Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Centre Education how many children’s centres there were in Loughborough Children’s Brixton Elizabeth Truss each local authority in May 2010; and how many there Centre will be in May 2013. [151031] 949W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 950W

Elizabeth Truss: The following table shows the breakdown Number of designated of children’s centre numbers by local authority at April children’s centres at 30 2010. The table is based on information supplied by the Region Local authority April 2010 local authorities. LON Havering 14 Local authorities continue to review, consult and WM Herefordshire 12 reorganise their children’s centre provision. The number EE Hertfordshire 82 of children’s centres in May 2013 will be affected by LON Hillingdon 17 those local decisions and is not something my Department LON Hounslow 18 would predict. SE Isle of Wight 8 SW Isles of Scilly 1 Number of designated LON Islington 16 children’s centres at 30 LON Kensington and Chelsea 8 Region Local authority April 2010 SE Kent 96 LON Barking and Dagenham 18 YH Kingston upon Hull, City of 20 LON Barnet 20 LON Kingston upon Thames 11 YH Barnsley 19 YH Kirklees 32 SW Bath and North East Somerset 11 NW Knowsley 15 EE Bedford Borough 15 LON Lambeth 29 LON Bexley 16 NW Lancashire 79 WM Birmingham 75 YH Leeds 58 NW Blackburn with Darwen 13 EM Leicester, City of 23 NW Blackpool 13 EM Leicestershire 41 NW Bolton 18 LON Lewisham 19 SW Bournemouth 9 EM Lincolnshire 48 SE Bracknell Forest 8 NW Liverpool 26 YH Bradford 41 EE Luton 23 LON Brent 19 NW Manchester 40 SE Brighton and Hove 15 SE Medway 19 SW Bristol, City of 31 LON Merton 11 LON Bromley 18 NE Middlesbrough 13 SE Buckinghamshire 35 SE Milton Keynes 20 NW Bury 14 YH NE Lincolnshire 14 YH Calderdale 16 NE Newcastle upon Tyne 18 EE Cambridgeshire 40 LON Newham 20 LON Camden 17 EE Norfolk 54 EE Central Bedfordshire 22 YH North Lincolnshire 12 NW Cheshire East 19 SW North Somerset 14 NW Cheshire West and Chester 20 NE North Tyneside 12 LON City of London 1 YH North Yorkshire 37 SW Cornwall 40 EM Northamptonshire 50 WM Coventry 23 NE Northumberland 20 LON Croydon 26 EM Nottingham, City of 18 NW Cumbria 28 EM Nottinghamshire 58 NE Darlington 7 NW Oldham 16 EM Derby, City of 18 SE Oxfordshire 45 EM Derbyshire 54 EE Peterborough, City of 15 SW Devon 43 SW Plymouth, City of 17 YH Doncaster 21 SW Poole 8 SW Dorset 23 SE Portsmouth 16 WM Dudley 20 SE Reading 13 NE Durham 43 LON Redbridge 22 LON Ealing 28 NE Redcar and Cleveland. 12 YH East Riding of Yorkshire 20 LON Richmond upon Thames 10 SE East Sussex 35 NW Rochdale 16 LON Enfield 24 YH Rotherham 22 EE Essex 85 EM Rutland 2 NE Gateshead 15 NW Salford 16 SW Gloucestershire 39 WM Sandwell 21 LON*** Greenwich 24 NW Sefton 15 LON Hackney 20 YH Sheffield 36 NW Halton 8 WM Shropshire 18 LON Hammersmith and Fulham 15 SE Slough 10 SE Hampshire 81 WM Solihull 14 LON Haringey 19 SW Somerset 41 LON Harrow 16 SW South Gloucestershire 15 NE Hartlepool 8 NE South Tyneside 12 951W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 952W

the release and transfer of airborne asbestos fibres into Number of designated children’s centres at 30 the classrooms. The report by HSL has also been provided Region Local authority April 2010 to the school governors and the local authority and states that the sampling and analytical analysis carried SE Southampton 14 out by HSL showed that there is no evidence for a EE Southend on Sea 14 quantifiable transfer of asbestos fibres from the ceiling LON Southwark 21 void into the classrooms. NW St Helens 12 WM Staffordshire 54 The Department for Education has noted the outcome NW Stockport 19 of the HSE investigation and HSL testing at Cwmcarn NE Stockton on Tees 11 and has decided that no further action is required at this WM Stoke on Trent 16 stage in response to this specific case. EE Suffolk 48 The Department continues to take the issue of managing NE Sunderland 17 asbestos in our schools very seriously and is pro-active SE Surrey 69 in promoting good asbestos management in schools. It LON Sutton 14 has published on-line guidance on managing the risks SW Swindon 14 of asbestos, has established the Asbestos in Schools NW Tameside 17 Steering Group to promote and raise awareness of WM Telford and Wrekin 13 asbestos management requirements and has asked the EE Thurrock 15 Committee on Carcinogenicity to consider and report SW Torbay 7 upon the relative vulnerability of children to asbestos LON Tower Hamlets 23 compared with adults. Alongside this, the Department NW Trafford 16 liaises as necessary with the HSE as it is the lead YH Wakefield 23 regulator and enforces the duty to manage asbestos in WM Walsall 18 non-domestic premises such as schools. LON Waltham Forest 17 LON Wandsworth 23 Dementia NW Warrington 12 WM Warwickshire 39 SE West Berkshire 10 Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for SE West Sussex 49 Education whether his Department has a dementia LON Westminster, City of 15 strategy. [151824] NW Wigan 20 SW Wiltshire 30 Elizabeth Truss: The Department does not have a SE Windsor and Maidenhead 10 specific dementia strategy. NW Wirral 16 The Department encourages proactive line management SE Wokingham 10 of staff that are unwell and provides a range of options WM Wolverhampton 18 to support them. These include access to guidance, WM Worcestershire 34 occupational health and employee assistance. YH York, City of 9 Total Number of CCs 3,631 Educational Institutions: Inspections Cwmcarn School John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will list the grounds upon which, under Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for section 126(1) of the Education and Inspections Education pursuant to the answer of 17 December Act 2006, Ofsted may decide to inspect (a) schools, 2012, Official Report, column 590W, what steps he (b) further education colleges and (c) sixth form plans to take following the publication of the Health colleges which were graded outstanding at their last and Safety Executive’s report into asbestos at inspection. [151506] Cwmcarn high school in Wales. [144983] Mr Laws: Her Majesty’s chief inspector retains the Mr Laws [holding answer 27 February 2013]: The discretion to inspect any outstanding further education Health and Safety Executive (HSE) has recently concluded or sixth form college where he considers it necessary. its investigation into the asbestos related incident at The chief inspector regularly conducts risk assessments Cwmcarn High School in Wales and wrote to the school of outstanding providers to see if they are maintaining governors and local authority with its findings on their high standards of performance and, where they 26 February. are not, he may choose to inspect. The chief inspector The HSE investigation concluded that there are may also inspect in cases where a college that is not appropriate asbestos management arrangements in place required to be inspected requests an inspection and at the school as required under the Control of Asbestos must inspect any outstanding institution at the Secretary Regulations 2012 and that no enforcement action is of State’s request. required. The grounds under which outstanding schools may As part of the investigation, the HSE asked the be inspected are the same as the above but Ofsted’s Health and Safety Laboratory (HSL) to conduct asbestos powers to inspect schools in those circumstances are testing at Cwmcarn High School. The main aim of the provided by section 8 of the Education Act 2005 (as HSL sampling and analysis at the school was to measure amended by section 40 of the Education Act 2011). 953W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 954W

Free Schools and range of AS qualifications they offer based on their own school’s circumstances and the needs of their John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for pupils. Education how many open free schools have been inspected by Ofsted; and how many such schools have Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for received an inspection judgement of, requires Education what representations he has received from improvement. [152934] university bodies which support the establishment of AS levels as a stand-alone qualification. [145853] Mr Laws: 24 free schools opened in September 2011. To date, Ofsted have inspected and published reports for nine of these free schools. Of the nine, six free Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 4 March 2013]: I schools have been judged to be ‘Good’, and three have have discussed our plans for A level reform with a wide received a ‘Requires Improvement’ judgement. range of organisations and individuals, including the Free Schools: Pay Russell Group and Universities UK. These discussions and Ofqual’s consultation showed widespread support John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for for the AS level, so we are retaining it as a standalone Education what the salaries of the head teachers of qualification to support breadth. each free school were in 2010-11. [152930] Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laws: The first free schools did not open until Education what assessment he has made of the effect September 2011. The salary of the head teacher once of the proposed establishment of AS levels as a the free school is open will be included in the free stand-alone qualification on take-up of each subject at school’s first full set of accounts. AS level. [146261] GCE AS-level Elizabeth Truss: The AS will be retained as a standalone Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for qualification to offer breadth. It is for schools to determine Education what assessment he has made of the effect the number and range of AS qualifications they offer, of the establishment of AS levels as a stand-alone based on their own school’s circumstances and the qualification on the ability of universities to consider needs of their pupils. applicant potential. [145851] Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 4 March 2013]: We GCSE know that universities use a range of information and evidence about applicants for admissions purposes. Even Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for within individual universities, there may be a variety of Education what the (a) average uncapped GCSE approaches between subjects. Changes to the AS and points score of pupils eligible for free school meals, (b) A-levels mean that some universities may need to make proportion of children eligible for free school meals changes to admissions processes. However, Ofqual’s who attained at least five GCSEs at grade C or above, consultation on A-level reform found that for many including English and mathematics and (c) proportion universities, the removal of AS would not have a major of all children who attained at least five GCSEs at impact on selection processes. grade C or above, including English and mathematics in (i) London Challenge schools, (iii) City Challenge Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for schools and (iii) all maintained secondary schools was Education what assessment he has made of the effect in each year since the start of the London Challenge of the establishment of AS levels as a stand-alone programme. [151935] qualification on the take-up of each subject currently taught to AS level. [145852] Mr Laws: The requested information for the academic Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 4 March 2013]: The years 2007/08 to 2011/12 is given in the table. Information AS will be retained as a standalone qualification to for earlier years could be provided only at disproportionate offer breadth. It is for schools to determine the number cost.

Average uncapped GCSE point score and percentage of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 achieving 5 or more GCSEs at grade A*-C or equivalent including English and mathematics GCSEs1 of pupils in London Challenge Schools2, City Challenge Schools3 and all state-funded secondary schools4 by Free School Meal (FSM) eligibility. Years: 2007/08 to 2011/12 (revised)5. Coverage: England6 Pupils eligible for FSM All pupils7 Average uncapped Percentage achieving 5+ Percentage achieving 5+ Number of GCSE point score per A*-C grades inc. English Number of eligible A*-C grades inc. English and School type eligible pupils8 pupil9 and mathematics GCSEs pupils8 mathematics GCSEs

London Challenge schools2: 2007/08 16,111 337.7 34.5 74,710 50.7 2008/09 16,157 369.2 37.8 73,721 54.0 2009/10 16,518 401.7 43.2 74,253 58.0 2010/11 16,928 417.1 47.3 74,229 61.9 2011/12 17,116 428.8 48.9 74,541 62.3

City Challenge schools3: 2007/08 8,430 301.7 22.0 48,075 44.2 955W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 956W

Average uncapped GCSE point score and percentage of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 achieving 5 or more GCSEs at grade A*-C or equivalent including English and mathematics GCSEs1 of pupils in London Challenge Schools2, City Challenge Schools3 and all state-funded secondary schools4 by Free School Meal (FSM) eligibility. Years: 2007/08 to 2011/12 (revised)5. Coverage: England6 Pupils eligible for FSM All pupils7 Average uncapped Percentage achieving 5+ Percentage achieving 5+ Number of GCSE point score per A*-C grades inc. English Number of eligible A*-C grades inc. English and School type eligible pupils8 pupil9 and mathematics GCSEs pupils8 mathematics GCSEs

2008/09 8,270 333.4 24.7 45,403 47.2 2009/10 8,187 377.3 30.5 44,600 53.3 2010/11 8,159 402.1 34.8 43,611 57.3 2011/12 8,152 410.7 36.0 43,227 58.3

All state-funded secondary schools4: 2007/08 74,360 303.7 24.0 595,806 48.4 2008/09 74,035 336.0 26.7 576,420 50.9 2009/10 76,949 372.3 31.4 575,970 55.3 2010/11 78,796 394.3 34.7 564,863 58.4 2011/12 79,788 405.5 36.4 559,093 59.0 1 Full GCSEs only have been included (full GCSEs, double awards, accredited international certificates and their predecessor iGCSEs and AS-levels). Figures from 2007/08 to 2008/09 exclude iGCSEs, 2009/10 figures onwards include accredited iGCSEs. 2 London Challenge schools include all inner and outer London state-funded schools (including academies and CTCs). 3 City Challenge schools include all state-funded schools (including Academies and CTCs) within the local authorities of Dudley, Sandwell, Walsall and Wolverhampton in the ’Black Country’ and Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford and Wigan in ’Greater Manchester’. 4 Includes all England state-funded schools (including academies and CTCs) 5 Figures for 2007/08 to 2010/11 are based on final data, 2011/12 figures are based on revised data. 6 The figures in this table do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 7 Includes pupils for whom free school meal eligibility could not be determined. 8 Pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 in each academic year. 9 Total uncapped point score from GCSE and equivalents divided by the number of eligible pupils. Source: National Pupil Database (2007/08 to 2010/11) and Key Stage 4 attainment data (2011/12).

Languages: Primary Education what financial assistance his Department provides to orphans from the age of 16 who are not and have never been in the care of local authorities. [152063] Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what criteria his Department used to Mr Timpson: Local authorities have a general duty to identify the list of seven languages at Key Stage 2, one safeguard and promote the welfare of children within of which primary schools are required to teach. their area who are in need. Children who are orphaned [151912] will normally be considered children in need and have their needs assessed by the local authority. Many will Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 18 April 2013]: Subject come into the care system and receive the full range of to Parliament’s approval, we intend to require maintained support to which all looked after children are entitled. primary schools to teach all pupils at key stage 2 one of Others may continue to live with members of their a list of prescribed languages from September 2014: wider family where this is assessed as being in their best French, German, Italian, Mandarin, Spanish, Latin or interests. Ancient Greek. Local authorities do not provide income support, but Having a prescribed list of languages allows a balance in exceptional cases they can provide financial assistance between giving schools a variety of teaching options on to families where children are assessed as being in need. the one hand, and maintaining continuity between primary This could include for example small payments to cover and secondary language teaching on the other. We subsistence in an emergency or for accommodation for consulted on the question of which languages to prescribe families without access to public funds. and the proposed list broadly reflects the languages that Orphans aged 16 and 17-years-old are entitled to the primary schools indicated that they intend to teach. same support as any other young person. This may However, it does not restrict them unnecessarily, instead include financial support through the 16 to 19 bursary giving them a choice that extends to Mandarin, which is for those in education, as well as benefits such as important economically, and Latin and Ancient Greek, income support. In addition, where these young people which provide an important foundation to a number of remain with family or friends, the carers may be entitled modern languages, as well as covering the major European to a range of support including benefits such as child languages. The languages in the list comprise a sample benefit, subject to satisfying the relevant qualifying of important languages that, each in its own right, give conditions. a good grounding for further languages study. Pay Orphans: Education Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many staff in his private ministerial Education pursuant to the answer of 15 April 2013, office received a performance-related bonus in the last Official Report, column 134W on orphans: education, two financial years. [147861] 957W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 958W

Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 14 March 2013]: The Statistical First Release ’Schools, Pupils and their following table shows the number of staff in the Secretary Characteristics, January 2012’. This is available on the of State’s office who received a non consolidated Department’s website1. performance award in each of the last two financial The number and proportion of pupils in school years 1, years. Awards paid in the financial year relate to 2 and 3 taught in class sizes of 31 or more in each local performance in the previous year. authority area in England have been placed in the House Libraries. Number of staff who 1 received a non http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/ consolidated a00209478/ Number of staff performance award Primary Education: Teachers 2011/12 12 6 2012/13 13 7 Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of how many Physical Education new primary teachers would been needed by 2014-15 to maintain current pupil teacher ratios. [152484] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that Mr Laws [holding answer 22 April 2013]: No such children receive adequate instruction at school on how estimate has been made. to maintain and improve physical fitness; [151992] (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that children are Pupils: Disadvantaged given adequate physical fitness tests at school; [151993] (3) what steps he is taking to ensure that children are Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for informed of the benefits of competitive sport at school. Education whether his Department has given [151995] consideration to using parental educational attainment as the basis for the allocation of the pupil premium Mr Timpson: We recently announced additional ring- rather than free school meals. [153096] fenced funding of £150 million per annum for academic years 2013/14 and 2014/15 to support the provision of Mr Laws: The Pupil Premium is allocated to schools Physical Education (PE) and sport in state primary at the rate of £900 for each child who is either known to schools in England. have been eligible for free school meals (FSM) at any PE is currently compulsory in the National Curriculum time during the past six years (known as the ″Ever6 at all four Key Stages and will remain so after the basis″), or who has been looked after continuously in current review. A draft programme of study for PE was public care for more than six months during the year. published for consultation in February 2013. This makes The total annual investment in this priority for the clear that a high-quality physical education curriculum Government will rise to £2.5 billion in 2014-15. should provide opportunities for pupils to become physically The Government consulted in June 2010 on the confident in a way which supports their health and appropriate allocation methodology for the Pupil Premium, fitness. We do not prescribe specific measures to help to and we published our conclusions before the 2011-12 achieve this as we believe that individual schools and financial year. In that year, Pupil Premium was allocated teachers are best placed to address the particular needs on the basis of current eligibility for FSM; the Ever6 of their pupils. basis was then introduced from 2012-13. Our report, The draft programme of study also reflects our belief published on 13 December 2010 following the consultation, that opportunities to compete in sport and other activities set out our rationale. We consulted on the merits of build character and help to embed values such as fairness different indicators as a basis for the distribution of the and respect, and it places far greater emphasis on the Pupil Premium, and FSM was chosen because it is the importance of competitive sport within and between only pupil-based indicator nationally available. schools. The link between FSM eligibility, both current and The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. recent, and under-achievement is very strong, and there Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), is overwhelming evidence that pupils eligible for FSM and Her Majesty’s chief inspector have agreed that for generally have lower educational attainment outcomes all primary schools Ofsted inspectors will consider how than their peers. While there is also a strong link between well the school uses its additional funding to improve other characteristics and under-achievement, such as the quality and breadth of its PE and sporting provision. parental educational attainment, a school’s ability to identify eligible pupils easily and objectively using a Primary Education: Class Sizes nationally recognised measure is very important in enabling them to claim the necessary funding and to deliver the Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for educational interventions that their pupils require. FSM Education how many and what proportion of pupils based measures fulfil these criteria more closely than aged five, six or seven have been taught in classes of 30 other approaches. or more in each local education authority area in each year since 2010; and if he will make a statement. Pupils: Per Capita Costs [151558] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laws: The number of pupils in state-funded Education what the (a) national and (b) regional mainstream primary schools in England, including average spend on pupils is in (i) England and (ii) information on class sizes, is published as part of the Barnsley Central constituency. [138929] 959W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 960W

Mr Laws [holding answer 23 January 2013]: Figures have been involved in projects funded by the EEF. The are not available for the parliamentary constituency of knowledge gained from these projects will be shared Barnsley Central as data is collected at a local authority with all schools. level. The available information for 2010-11 on the national and local revenue expenditure on pupils in The successful grants and their individual and total England and Barnsley local authority is shown in the value are shown in the following table. The Department following table: does not maintain records of any unsuccessful bids.

Total £ Primary Secondary Special (excluding education education schools pre-primary) Durham University 766,945 ARK 774,000 England 4,040 5,250 21,170 4,760 Future Foundations 930,339 Barnsley 4,150 5,020 19,110 4,620 LA Tutor Trust 263,000 PATHS 90,000 Bristol University 1,600,184 Schools: Co-operation Campaign for Learning 550,154 Challenge Partners 961,778 Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Hampshire County Council 141,000 Education what grants have been allocated via the £35 The Schools Network 396,750 million school collaboration incentive outlined in the Anglican School Partnership 110,760 Schools White Paper 2010. [150725] Catch Up 184,900 University College London 736,546 Mr Laws: The Department has made no allocations Oxford Trust 270,750 using the model originally envisaged in the White Paper. Plymouth Parent Partnership 1,022,471 Collaboration is, however, fundamental to the work of Portsmouth University 368,460 Teaching Schools. Teaching Schools are required to Sapere 304,000 establish alliances of schools with which they work SHINE Trust 510,175 directly to provide: school based initial teacher training, Achieve Together 1,800,192 school to school support, research and development The Learning Trust 310,237 activity and continuous professional development. Teaching Creative futures 415,000 schools also work with others to develop new school How to Thrive 687,000 leaders and can designate and deploy specialist Leaders Innovation Unit 906,000 of Education. Primary Writing Project 121,000 School21 382,000 National Leaders of Education also work collaboratively Success for All 1,410,000 with other schools. They use the resources of their own Book Trust 218,414 schools to support others. Local Leaders of Education Calderdale Excellence Partnership 395,850 provide direct support to the leadership to support Catch Up 424,626 school improvement. Coventry University 397,314 Discover 240,652 Schools: Finance Dyslexia Action 390,206 Real Action 457,980 Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for SHINE Trust 455,800 Education what the value is of the successful grants Success for All (Quest) 726,112 given by the Education Endowment Fund to date; and North Tyneside Council 520,064 if he will place in the Library a complete list of all bids Unitas 480,953 University College London 525,000 made and successful recipients. [151250] University of Exeter 338,752 CUREE 550,347 Mr Laws: The Education Endowment Foundation Bolton Council 393,570 (EEF) is an independent grant making charity established Norfolk Council 148,217 in 2011. The main aims of the EEF are to raise the Adamsrill Primary School 78,755 attainment of children facing disadvantage by: Nottingham Council 70,575 identifying promising educational innovations that address the Perry Beeches 306,000 needs of disadvantaged children in primary and secondary schools Greenford High School 148,110 in England; Fresh Start Aggregated Trial 353,065 evaluating these innovations to extend and secure the evidence Thornaby Academy 146,880 on what works and can be made to work at scale; Chess in Schools and Communities 689,150 encouraging schools, government, charities, and others to apply The Communications Trust 967,780 evidence and adopt innovations found to be effective. The Curriculum Centre 147,848 The Department entered a Grant Funding Agreement Edge Hill University 543,425 which established the EEF for a minimum often years, Oxford University 489,471 with a single initial grant of £125 million so far. The Let’s Think Forum 639,485 charity has funded 56 successful projects, including Private Equity Foundation 254,624 eight new projects announced in March 2013, at a value Catch 22 596,087 of £28.7 million covering both primary and secondary 28,708,753 schools. So far over 1,800 schools and 300,000 pupils 961W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 962W

Schools: Inspections The Education Act 2011 provides Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector (HMCI) with a power to charge for the cost of a school inspection in response to a request from ‘the appropriate authority’ of a Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for school, and where HMCI is not required to inspect the school Education how many schools have requested an Ofsted routinely. This power took effect from February 2012. No school inspection since Quarter 3 2011. [151251] has yet been charged for the cost of an inspection under these provisions. Mr Laws: This question is a matter for Ofsted. HM Schools: Pendle chief inspector, Sir Michael Wilshaw, has written to the hon. Member, and a copy of his response has been Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for placed in the House Libraries. Education what assessment his Department has made Letter from Sir Michael Wilshaw, dated 15 April of the level of literacy and numeracy of (a) primary 2013: and (b) secondary school leavers in Pendle Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as constituency in each of the last five years. [151230] Her Majesty’s Chief inspector, for reply. Since 1 October 2011, Ofsted has received 24 requests for an Mr Laws: The information requested is provided in inspection from schools. the following tables.

Primary school leavers. Achievements at the expected level1 by pupils at the end of Key Stage 2 in Pendle parliamentary constituency2. Years: 2008-123. Coverage: Pendle constituency4 Percentage of KS2 pupils achieving expected level in 2008 2009 2010 2011 20125

English 78 74 * 76 81 Maths 74 74 * 72 80 * = Figures have been suppressed as they are unrepresentative due to industrial action. 1 Includes pupils who achieved Level 4 or above. Level 4 is the expected level of achievement for pupils at the end of Key Stage 2. 2 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the school. 3 Data is final data for academic years 2008 to 2011, 2012 is based on revised data. 4 Includes state-funded schools including academies. Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 5 In 2012, English was calculated from reading test results and writing teacher assessment rather than from reading and writing tests as in previous years. English in 2012 is, therefore, not comparable to previous years. Source: National Pupil Database

Secondary school leavers. Percentage of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 achieving A*-C grades in English and mathematics GCSEs1 in Pendle constituency2. Years: 2007/08 to 2011/123. Coverage: Pendle constituency4 Percentage of KS4 pupils achieving an A*-C grade in 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12

English 51.1 51.8 57.7 64.1 56.2 Maths 48.9 48.6 55.1 57.2 62.5 1 Full GCSEs only have been included (full GCSEs, double awards, accredited international certificates and their predecessor iGCSEs and AS-levels). Figures from 2007/08 to 2008/09 exclude iGCSEs, 2009/10 figures onwards include accredited iGCSEs. 2 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the school. 3 Data is final data for academic years 2007/08 to 2010/11, 2011/12 is based on revised data. 4 Includes state-funded schools including academies. Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. Source: National Pupil Database (2007/08 to 2010/11) and Key Stage 4 attainment data (2011/12)

Schools: Sports Schools: Standards

Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many and what proportion of pupils Education what proportion of (a) primary and (b) attend schools that have been judged by Ofsted to be secondary schools participating in his Department’s inadequate or requiring improvement by local next recent physical education and school sport survey authority. [152602] reported that (i) fewer than 20 per cent and (ii) more than 80 per cent of pupils had participated in (A) any competitive intra-school sport and (B) regular Mr Laws: This question is a matter for Ofsted. HM competitive intra-school sport. [151940] chief inspector, Sir Michael Wilshaw, has written to the hon. Member, and a copy of his response has been placed in the House Libraries. Mr Timpson: The most recent survey of pupils’ Letter from Lorraine Langham, dated 22 April 2013: participation in physical education and sport in school covered the academic year 2009/10 and was published Your recent Parliamentary Question has been passed to Ofsted for response. I am replying on behalf of Her Majesty’s Chief in September 2010. This survey reported the overall Inspector. proportion of pupils who participated in competitive intra-school sport; including those who participated in Since 2005, maintained school inspections have been carried out under section 5 of the Education Act 2005 and, more recently, any such competitive activities, and those who participated the Education Act 2011. Under section 5, Ofsted inspects maintained regularly. These figures are not broken down to school schools .(nursery, primary, secondary and special schools and level. A copy of the survey has been placed in the House pupil referral units), state-funded independent schools such as of Commons Library. academies and certain non-maintained special schools in England. 963W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 964W

The number and proportion of pupils attending schools inspected Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for at 31 December 2012 that have been judged as ’satisfactory / Education how many pupils have benefited from requires improvement’ or ’inadequate’, by local authority, have subsidised home to school transport in the last three been provided in table 1. The ’requires improvement’ judgement years for which figures are available. [152939] was introduced in September 2012, replacing ’satisfactory’. For completeness, the number and proportion of pupils at schools judged to be ’outstanding’ or ’good’, by local authority, are also Mr Laws: The Department for Education does not provided. collect this data. Local authorities will collect this data Schools: Transport to inform their budgetary allocations, but they are not under a duty to report pupil numbers to the Department. Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many education providers were Sixth Form Education consulted before the Guidance on home to school travel and transport was published in March 2013. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for [152935] Education how many (a) schools and (b) academies have opened new sixth form provision in each of the Mr Laws: A working group of four local authority last three years; and how many such sixth forms were home-to-school transport practitioners and two road graded (i) inadequate or (ii) satisfactory by Ofsted at safety policy officials from the Department of Transport their last inspection. [150140] were consulted on the appeals element of the guidance. The local authority practitioners represented the Rural Mr Laws [holding answer 26 March 2013]: The Access to Learning Group, the Association of Transport Department for Education through the Education Funding Co-ordinating Officers, and Road Safety GB. Agency (EFA) has funded new sixth forms at schools and academies over the last two years as follows: Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what assessment he has made of the Number effect of his Department’s Guidance on home to school travel and transport published in March 2013 2011/12 on schools with larger catchment areas; [152936] New school sixth forms 24 (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of his New academy sixth forms 33 Department’s Guidance on home to school travel and transport published in March 2013 on schools in areas 2012/13 of sparse population density; [152937] New school sixth forms 19 (3) what assessment he has made of the effect of his New Academy sixth forms 18 Department’s Guidance on home to school travel and transport published in March 2013 on schools of a The EFA does not have records of new academies’ religious character. [152938] sixth forms prior to 2011. Of these 94 schools and academies with new sixth Mr Laws: The revised statutory guidance published forms, Ofsted have recorded 60 inspections since September in March 2013 is designed to reflect the Government’s 20111. Inspections taking place after January 2012 do commitment to reducing bureaucracy, and to allow not include a separate grade for school and academy local authorities to reach their own solutions to local sixth forms but do include commentary in the body of issues, following the usual practice of consulting with the inspection report. schools and interested parties, without the burden of overly prescriptive guidance. The Ofsted judgments of the overall effectiveness of The guidance provides a summary of the statutory these schools and academies, and the separate commentary obligations placed upon local authorities, none of which about their sixth forms (where made) are set out in the have changed since the revisions introduced by the following table: Education and Inspections Act 2006. Given that the 1 See Ofsted website: regulations have not changed it is not our intention to http://www.Ofsted.gov.uk/resources/official-statistics- carry out an impact assessment. maintained-school-inspections-and-outcomes

Overall Ofsted school/academy inspection judgment Sixth form commentary (where made)

Outstanding 11 Outstanding—6 Good—1 No commentary—4

Good 18 Good—9 No commentary—9

Requires improvement/satisfactory 18 Good—4 Requires improvement/satisfactory—6 No commentary—8 965W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 966W

Overall Ofsted school/academy inspection judgment Sixth form commentary (where made)

Inadequate 6 Good—1 Requires improvement/satisfactory—2 No commentary—3

Total 153 53 1 Seven academies received a ’monitoring inspection’ as part of an ’academy initiative’—this resulted in a letter and no grades were given.

Teachers The 2013/14 allocations are subject to changes and final numbers for 2013/14 will be published shortly after the end of the academic year. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps his Department is taking to plan Teachers: Industrial Disputes future teacher supply requirements on an (a) local and (b) national basis. [152440] Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of the potential Mr Laws [holding answer 22 April 2013]: National number of parents likely to be affected by the teachers’ teacher supply requirements are estimated each year by strike expected in June 2013. [151939] the Teacher Supply Model (TSM). This model takes into account any future growth (or decline) in pupil Mr Laws: Any strike action by teachers will disrupt numbers, pupil-teacher ratios within schools, and any pupils’ education and inconvenience a significant number policy changes that may affect, for example, the number of parents. We will be assessing the likely impact on of specialist (secondary) subject teachers needed. In schools, pupils and parents of any strike action by the addition, the TSM also forecasts the number of experienced NUT and the NASUWT, including the strike they have teachers entering or leaving the profession as a result of announced in the North West of England on 27 June. retirement or career change. Collectively, these factors However, at this stage, it is too early to estimate with are used to determine the number of new teachers it is any accuracy the exact number of parents likely to be necessary to train in order to supply the workforce affected by this strike, which is over two months away. needs of our schools. We initially allocated 34,791 initial Teachers: Qualifications teacher training (ITT) places for the 2013/14 academic year1. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Local teacher supply needs are addressed through the Education how many teachers in secondary schools are allocation of these ITT places among a growing number teaching subjects in which they do not have a (a) of ITT providers and schools located across England. degree, (b) A-Level and (c) O-Level/GCSE at C or There are now more than 240 higher education institution- above. [152316] led and school-centred providers of ITT (including 38 new school-led providers accredited in the last 12 months) Mr Laws: The latest information on the proportion and more than 800 schools leading School Direct school of secondary school teachers teaching subjects in which partnerships, who are seeking to meet local supply they do not have a degree or higher is shown in the needs. The allocation of ITT places is also informed by following table, which is table 13 of the “School Workforce a range of market information based on geographic in England: November 2011” statistical first release.1 patterns in newly-qualified teacher employment, existing Information on how many secondary school teachers teacher workforce levels and teacher vacancies. do not have ’A’ or ’O’ levels in the subject they teach is 1 ITT places for HE and school-centred ITT providers for the not collected centrally. academic year 2013/14 can be found at the following location: 1 Available at the following link: http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/careers/ http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/ traininganddevelopment/initial/b00204256/itt-funding-and- recentreleases/a00205723/school-workforce-in-england- allocations/allocations. provisional-nov-2011

Highest post A-level qualifications1, 2 held by publicly funded secondary school teachers (head count) in the subjects3 they taught to year groups 7 to 13 in 2011, November 2011, England Highest level of qualification1 held in a relevant subject3, 4 Any No relevant relevant Postgraduate post post Total Bachelor of Certificate of Other a-level a-level head Degree or higher5 Education Education qualification6 qualification qualification count Subject3 %±CI7 %±CI7 %±CI7 %±CI7 % % Thousands

Mathematics 45.4 ± 0.8 7.1 ± 0.4 18.2 ± 0.6 2.2 ± 0.2 72.9 27.1 35.2 English 63.1 ± 0.7 4.5 ± 0.3 9.1 ± 0.4 1.7 ± 0.2 78.3 21.7 38.8

Physics8 56.1 ± 1.9 3.0 ± 0.7 6.3 ± 1.0 0.8 ± 0.3 66.3 33.7 5.9 Chemistry8 65.8 ± 1.6 2.4 ± 0.5 6.2 ± 0.8 0.6 ± 0.3 75.0 25.0 6.9 967W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 968W

Highest post A-level qualifications1, 2 held by publicly funded secondary school teachers (head count) in the subjects3 they taught to year groups 7 to 13 in 2011, November 2011, England Highest level of qualification1 held in a relevant subject3, 4 Any No relevant relevant Postgraduate post post Total Bachelor of Certificate of Other a-level a-level head Degree or higher5 Education Education qualification6 qualification qualification count Subject3 %±CI7 %±CI7 %±CI7 %±CI7 % % Thousands

Biology8 76.0 ± 1.2 3.8 ± 0.5 5.7 ± 0.7 0.8 ± 0.3 86.3 13.7 8.5 Combined/ 80.4 ± 0.6 4.8 ± 0.3 4.9 ± 0.3 1.3 ± 0.2 91.4 8.6 34.7 General science8 Other 77.7 ± 2.1 3.5 ± 0.9 4.4 ± 1.0 1.4 ± 0.6 87.0 13.0 2.8 Sciences8

History 61.7 ± 1.1 3.1 ± 0.4 6.6 ± 0.6 0.9 ± 0.2 72.3 27.7 16.6 Geography 57.4 ± 1.2 3.3 ± 0.4 5.9 ± 0.6 1.0 ± 0.2 67.5 32.5 14.9

French 51.3 ± 1.2 4.1 ± 0.5 16.7 ± 0.9 1.3 ± 0.3 73.4 26.6 15.3 German 52.4 ± 2.0 2.1 ± 0.6 10.7 ± 1.3 1.0 ± 0.4 66.2 33.8 5.5 Spanish 33.6 ± 2.1 1.6 ± 0.6 10.6 ± 1.4 1.0 ± 0.5 46.9 53.1 6.8 Other 25.0 ± 3.3 0.4 ± 0.5 7.7 ± 2.0 1.0 ± 0.8 34.0 66.0 3.3 Modern Languages

Design and 51.8 ± 1.1 14.8 ± 0.8 9.6 ± 0.7 5.4 ± 0.5 81.6 18.4 14.8 technology9 Electronics/ 55.5 ± 3.6 16.6 ± 2.7 7.9 ± 2.0 3.3 ± 1.3 83.3 16.7 1.3 Systems and Control9 Food 42.5 ± 2.0 16.3 ± 1.5 9.6 ± 1.2 8.0 ± 1.1 76.4 23.6 5.3 Technology9 Graphics9 59.5 ± 2.1 14.1 ± 1.5 10.5 ± 1.3 3.0 ± 0.7 87.1 12.9 3.9 Resistant 56.6 ± 1.9 16.4 ± 1.5 10.0 ± 1.2 4.5 ± 0.8 87.5 12.5 4.5 Materials9 Textiles9 58.6 ± 2.3 10.3 ± 1.4 9.0 ± 1.4 4.9 ± 1.0 82.8 17.2 3.3 Other/ 48.7 ± 1.1 13.9 ± 0.8 9.5 ± 0.6 4.6 ± 0.5 76.7 23.3 16.8 Combined Technology9 Engineering 16.4 ± 5.2 0.9 ± 1.3 0.8 ± 1.2 1.0 ± 1.4 19.0 81.0 1.6 ICT10 26.4 ± 1.3 2.0 ± 0.4 8.9 ± 0.8 0.6 ± 0.2 37.9 62.1 18.6

Business/ 51.8 ± 1.5 4.8 ± 0.6 4.6 ± 0.6 1.1 ± 0.3 62.2 37.8 11.1 Economics Religious 33.0 ± 1.4 3.1 ± 0.5 7.6 ± 0.8 1.0 ± 0.3 44.7 55.3 16.5 Education11

Music 73.3 ± 1.4 4.9 ± 0.7 4.6 ± 0.6 2.1 ± 0.4 84.9 15.1 8.0 Drama 39.2 ± 1.6 3.0 ± 0.6 6.0 ± 0.8 1.5 ± 0.4 49.7 50.3 11.6 Art and 70.1 ± 1.1 5.3 ± 0.5 7.8 ± 0.6 1.3 ± 0.3 84.5 15.5 13.9 design Media Studies 15.4 ± 2.5 0.7 ± 0.6 2.4 ± 1.1 0.3 ± 0.4 18.8 81.2 6.6

Physical 56.0 ± 0.8 15.7 ± 0.6 6.8 ± 0.4 1.5 ± 0.2 80.0 20.0 26.0 education 969W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 970W

Highest post A-level qualifications1, 2 held by publicly funded secondary school teachers (head count) in the subjects3 they taught to year groups 7 to 13 in 2011, November 2011, England Highest level of qualification1 held in a relevant subject3, 4 Any No relevant relevant Postgraduate post post Total Bachelor of Certificate of Other a-level a-level head Degree or higher5 Education Education qualification6 qualification qualification count Subject3 %±CI7 %±CI7 %±CI7 %±CI7 % % Thousands

Citizenship 3.9 ± 1.9 0.1 ± 0.3 2.4 ± 1.5 0.2 ± 0.4 6.5 93.5 10.0 1 Where a teacher has more than one post A level qualification in the same subject, the qualification level is determined by the highest level reading from left (degree or higher) to right (other qualification). For example, teachers shown under PGCE have a PGCE but not a Degree. 2 Not including qualifications in special educational needs provision. 3 Teachers are counted once against each subject which they are teaching. Head counts are used, so a teacher teaching French and German would be counted once in each. 4 A full list of what was deemed as a ’relevant’ qualification subject for each curriculum subject taught can be found in the SFR home page, November 2010 at http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000997/index.shtml 5 Includes Doctorates and other Level 8 qualifications, Masters and other Level 7 qualifications (e.g. Post Graduate certificates and diplomas), first degrees (excluding BEds) and other level 6 qualifications (e.g. graduate certificates and diplomas). 6 Includes Certificate of Education, non-UK qualifications where the level was not provided and other qualification at National Qualifications Framework (NQF) level 4 or 5 and above e.g. diplomas or higher education and further education, foundation degrees, higher national diplomas and certificates of higher education. 7 Confidence intervals have been calculated around the proportions as not all schools were able to submit curriculum information, and not all qualifications returns were complete. Qualifications information was either not provided, or the subject field was missing for 12% of the teachers in schools submitting curriculum data. The confidence intervals show the statistical accuracy for the data, and give a range within which we can be reasonably sure (95% certain) that the true value actually lies. 8Teachers qualified in biology, chemistry, or physics are treated as qualified to teach both combined/general science and other science. 9 Teachers qualified in each of the specialist design & technology subjects are treated as qualified to teach other/combined design & technology. 10 Information & Communication Technology is abbreviated as ICT. 11 Includes philosophy. Notes: 1. Percentages are row percentages, and based on the number of teachers for whom curriculum and qualifications information was provided. 2. Numbers rounded to the nearest 100 and numbers below 50 are shown as nil or negligible. * = Not applicable. — = Nil or negligible. 3. Totals may not appear equal to the sum of the component parts because of rounding. Source: School Workforce Census

Teachers: Recruitment that awarded qualified teacher status (QTS) in England for academic years 2009/10, 2010/11 and 2012 to 28 Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for February 2013 are in Table A. Other ITT routes are Education what progress he has made toward available but records of applications via these routes are establishing Teach Next; how many recruits have come not held centrally. into the profession by this route; and how many people Table A: Applications for post graduate ITT he expects to have been recruited by this route by Subject 2009/10 2010/11 2012/13 September 2013. [151449] Art 1,740 1,400 900 Mr Laws: Teach First was asked to establish a “Teach Biology 1,780 1,710 880 Next” programme aimed at attracting high quality career Business Studies 1,510 1,050 350 changers with a recruitment target of 200 in total by Chemistry 1,130 1,370 860 September 2013. In the 2011 pilot year 68 career changers Citizenship 570 450 110 were recruited. In 2012, the first full year of the programme, Classics 100 100 100 106 career changers were recruited. To date, Teach First Combined and General 1,470 590 50 has recruited 121 career changers to the 2013 cohort Science that will commence training this September, so they are Design and Technology 1,830 1,050 300 on course to recruit 295 career changers compared to Drama 1,180 1,100 1,050 the target of 200. Economics 20 10 20 English 4,330 4,090 3,160 Teachers: Training Env/Rural Science 20 0 0 French 870 640 290 Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Geography 1,190 1,080 620 Education how many initial teacher training Geology 10 10 0 applications were made in each subject and phase in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2012-13 to date. German 210 200 90 History 1,850 1,890 2,090 [149667] Home Economics 150 110 20 Mr Laws: Information on the number of applications Information Technology 1,620 1,000 — made through the Graduate Teacher Training Registry Computer Science — — 200 (GTTR) and School Direct (2012/13 only) for all post Italian 20 10 10 graduate Initial Teacher Training (ITT) programmes Mathematics 4,040 3,600 1,980 971W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 972W

Table A: Applications for post graduate ITT Through the Troops to Teachers programme, there Subject 2009/10 2010/11 2012/13 will be opportunities for both graduates and non-graduates, Music 1,050 740 480 subject to eligibility criteria, to train and enter the Other 190 280 330 teaching profession via school-based routes. We have Other Modern Languages 730 820 1,130 further plans to encourage eligible graduate service Physical Education 3,300 3,390 3,700 leavers to use existing teacher training routes. From Physics 720 850 450 September 2013, the School Direct programme will Primary 23,870 24,670 23,340 allow eligible graduate Service Leavers to retrain to Religious Education 1,400 1,020 480 become teachers, and they will be offered additional Russian 0 10 0 incentives (either financial or through additional premium Social Studies 530 450 260 training personalised to their needs). Spanish 370 310 190 Vetting Total 57,790 53,970 43,430 Notes: Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10 and include some applications which Education what steps his Department takes when were subsequently withdrawn. 2. For 2012/13 ICT has been replaced in England by Computer Science as an notified that a legally required referral in relation to a ITT course so the figures are not directly comparable. regulated activity has not been made to the Disclosure 3. Applications for 2012/13 are correct to 28 February 2013. and Barring Service; and whether there is a length of 4. Some applications for postgraduate ITT courses are made independently of the GTTR and School Direct and are not included in the figures. time after which his Department would not take 5. Membership of the GTTR and engagement with School Direct changes action. [152332] between years, therefore the number of accredited ITT providers covered in this table varies from year to year. 6. The applications are shown against the year in which they were made; Mr Timpson [holding answer 22 April 2013]: If my applicants would be expected to commence training in the following academic Department were to be informed of such allegations year. about named individuals and named employers, my 7. Applications are counted for providers in England where at least one application was made to GTTR or School Direct. Individual applicants can officials would notify the Disclosure and Barring Service place more than one application, and so the number of applicants may be (DBS). It would make no difference when we were smaller. Duplication of applicants between GTTR and School Direct has been informed. If an organisation removes an individual removed and figures for School Direct only applications have been added to 2012/13 figures. from working closely and regularly with children, because Source: of harm or a risk of harm, it must make a referral to the GTTR and for 2012/13 School Direct Application Portal. DBS. If it fails to do so without good reason, it is committing an offence under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Groups Act 2006. If the DBS had evidence that such an Education when his Department plans to publish an offence may have been committed, it would inform the evaluation of the School Direct programme; and which police. organisations he has asked to undertake that review. Visits Abroad [152482] Mr Laws [holding answer 22 April 2013]: We are Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for currently considering whether to commission a formal Education what his Department’s budget was for external evaluation of School Direct. overseas travel for officials and Ministers in 2012-13. [151355] Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many applicants there have been for Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education does Schools Direct places starting in September 2013; and not allocate budgets at this level of financial detail. As how many such applicants have been accepted on to part of the transparency agenda, the Department publishes courses. [152683] a quarterly return on its website which includes details of overseas travel.1 Mr Laws [holding answer 22 April 2013]: The National 1http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ College for Teaching and Learning will be publishing departmentalinformation/transparency/b0065263/ministers- data on how many applicants there have been for Schools quarterly-returns Direct places starting in September 2013 shortly. Vocational Guidance Teachers: Veterans Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether Ofsted plans to amend its Education how many members of the armed forces inspection frameworks in order to issue a specific grade have (a) been recruited to the Troops to Teachers in (a) school, (b) further education college and (c) programme and (b) had their PGCEs funded by his sixth form college inspections relating to the standard Department. [151451] of careers advice secured under section 29 of the Education Act 2011. [151921] Mr Laws [holding answer 17 April 2013]: The new Troops to Teachers (TtT) programme has not yet been Mr Laws [holding answer 18 April 2013]: This question launched; we expect to make an announcement within is a matter for Ofsted. HM chief inspector, Sir Michael the next couple of months. Between May 2011 and Wilshaw, has written to the hon. Member, and a copy of 10 April 2013 the rate at which service leavers have been his response has been placed in the House Libraries. applying to teacher training courses has been increasing. Letter from Sir Michael Wilshaw, dated 16 April During this period, 322 service leavers have applied to 2013: teacher training courses, of which 132 have been accepted Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as so far. Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for reply. 973W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 974W

There are no plans to make a specific graded judgement on the It is not possible, from the data available on the quality of careers guidance in respect of the school inspection Department’s system, to identify the number of officials framework and the common inspection framework. However, in who incurred these costs. As it is not possible to disaggregate the common inspection framework, which applies to Further the individual costs, the 20 highest hotel expenses cannot Education colleges, sixth-form colleges and independent learning providers, inspectors are required to consider how well learners be established without incurring disproportionate cost. develop an understanding of careers and progression opportunities, and their ability to benefit from training and development North Sea Oil opportunities in reaching judgements for outcomes for learners. In the school inspection framework, inspectors must assess Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for how well leaders and managers ensure that the curriculum promotes Energy and Climate Change what local content successful progression to the pupils’ next stage of education, requirements exist for offshore development at the training or employment. Ofsted intends to amend its school Rosebank oil field. [152988] inspection framework from September so inspectors take greater account of the quality of careers guidance in respect of reaching Michael Fallon: The Department is actively engaged a judgement on the effectiveness of a school’s leadership and management. with Chevron to ensure that we maximise opportunities for UK content in the Rosebank development. This is part of our work with all licensees operating in the UKCS to ensure that they are aware of the capability of ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the UK supply chain and afford fair opportunities to bid for contracts under EU procurement laws. Energy Companies Obligation Redundancy Pay Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what proportion of energy Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy companies obligations contracts allocated by his and Climate Change how many officials in (a) his Department have been allocated to (a) small Department and (b) each of the non-departmental businesses, (b) medium businesses and (c) large public bodies for which he is responsible received companies. [152215] payments under a voluntary exit scheme in each of the last five years; and at what total cost in each such year. Michael Fallon [holding answer 22 April 2013]: The [152648] energy company obligation (ECO) places a carbon reduction obligation on the largest GB energy supply Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and companies. Climate Change was created in October 2008 so the What contracts energy companies enter into to deliver following information is from that point onwards. their ECO obligations is a commercial matter for them. Core DECC DECC has no responsibility for the allocation of contracts 2011-12 under ECO. 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 (No. of 2011-12 (£000) (£000) (£000) officials) (£000) Hotels DECC 0 0 0 8 506 Total0008506 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many officials in his (a) NDPBs Department and (b) non-departmental public bodies 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 stayed in hotels in (i) the UK and (ii) every other No of No of No of country during the last five years; at what total cost; officials £000 £000 officials £000 officials £000 and what the monetary value was of the 20 highest NDA 5 104 0 68 4,325 1 82 such hotel expenses in each such year. [152554] CNPA—00—0—0 CA — 0 0 33 1,805 — 0 Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and CCC— 0 0— 0— 0 Climate Change’s expenditure on hotel costs is as follows: Total 5 104 0 101 6,130 1 82

£000 The above information has been published as part of 2008- 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 our 2011-12 Annual Resource Accounts. The information 091 can be found in table 7.3 on page 118: Core UK 123 226 188 238 108 http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ DECC attachment_data/file/48452/5718-decc-annual-report-and- Overseas 147 633 432 343 272 accounts-201112.pdf Total Core 274 859 620 581 380 The figures for 2012-13 will be published as part of DECC the Annual Report and Accounts which is due to be laid NDPBs UK 240 231 847 742 1,133 before Parliament in July 2013. Overseas — — 45 40 56 All voluntary exits that are included in this answer Total 40 31 892 782 1.189 have been taken to include all non-compulsory departures. NDPBs 1 2008-09 expenditure relates to the period from October 2008, as that is when The civil service compensation scheme was reformed DECC was established. in 2010. Under the previous terms there could be costs 2 The Coal Authority is the only NDPB that were able to provide information extending for up to 10 years from a departure while for 2008-09 and 2009-10. The majority of expenditure in subsequent years is incurred by the Civil Nuclear Police Authority and the Nuclear under the reformed scheme all of the costs fall within Decommissioning Authority. the year of departure. 975W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 976W

NAO have estimated that under the reformed scheme, Applications for all other onshore wind developments exits cost around 40-50% less than the previous (that require planning permission) are considered by compensation scheme in place before the 2010 general local planning authorities in England, Wales, Scotland election. The reformed scheme allows for greater distinction and Northern Ireland, as well as the Scottish Government. between voluntary and compulsory departures. DECC gathers and holds records of those onshore wind farms that are operational, consented and in the Scotland planning system. Details of all these UK onshore wind farms can be found on the Renewable Energy Planning Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for database at: Energy and Climate Change (1) what (a) external https://restats.decc.gov.uk/app/reporting/decc/monthlyextract organisations and (b) individuals his Department DECC and Ofgem also record the numbers and engaged with as part of the Scotland Analysis location of schemes accredited under the Great Britain programme; and what was discussed at each such feed-in tariff (FiT) scheme. These will also include any meeting; [153295] smaller-scale developments that are not in the planning system. For schemes accredited on FiTs, DECC produces (2) how many members of his Department’s staff a summary table of the number of onshore wind have been allocated to work on the Scotland Analysis installations by local authority and parliamentary programme; and at what cost to the public purse; constituency area at: [153296] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/sub- (3) what meetings he or his officials have had with regional-feed-in-tariffs-confirmed-on-the-cfr-statistics the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West as Similarly, there may be some schemes accredited on part of the Scotland Analysis programme; and what the renewables obligation (RO) that are not in the was discussed at each such meeting; [153297] planning system; a list of RO accredited stations can be (4) what work his Department has commissioned by found at: external consultants in relation to work on the https://www.renewablesandchp.ofgem.gov.uk/Public/ Scotland Analysis programme; which consultants were ReportManager.aspx?ReportVisibility=1&ReportCategory=0 used; and at what cost to the public purse. [153298] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: Department of Energy and Climate Energy and Climate Change whether his Department Change Ministers and officials engage with a wide has made projections of the proportion of renewable variety of organisations in the public and private sectors, energy made up by onshore wind turbines in the UK. as part of the process of policy development and delivery. [153086] Inevitably devolved issues and the Scottish Independence debate are addressed in many of these meetings. Meetings Michael Fallon: The 2009 renewable energy directive held or attended by DECC Ministers are routinely sets a target for the UK to achieve 15% of its energy published on gov.uk: consumption for heat, electricity and transport from https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-of- renewable sources by 2020. energy-climate-change/series/ministers-meeting-with-external- The renewable energy roadmap sets out the amount organisations of onshore wind we anticipate will be deployed, based No meetings have taken place with the right hon. on operational capacity, and projects in the current Member for Edinburgh South West as part of the pipeline. This is available at: Scotland Analysis Programme and no external consultants https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ have been commissioned by DECC to work on this attachment_data/file/68637/7382-uk-renewable-energy- programme. roadmap-update.pdf No staff in the DECC are working exclusively on the Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State Scotland Analysis Programme which has been taken for Energy and Climate Change what onshore wind forward as part of the departments broader work on energy generation capacity (a) was installed, (b) had devolved issues (coordinated by a team of 2.5 FTEs). gained planning consent and (c) was seeking planning Any costs are being funded from existing departmental permission on 1 April 2013. [R] [153219] budgets in the normal way as part of the Department’s ongoing policy programme. Michael Fallon: The Department operates the Renewable Energy Planning Database (REPD) which tracks all Wind Power renewable developments, including onshore wind, through the planning system Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for https://restats.decc.gov.uk/app/reporting/decc/monthlyextract Energy and Climate Change whether his Department keeps records of the (a) number and (b) location of The REPD is updated monthly with the latest version all (i) current and (ii) planned onshore wind turbines in being to the end of March. the UK. [153085] The figures from REPD show:

Michael Fallon: Applications for onshore wind MW developments over 50 MW in England and Wales are Operational 5747.28 considered by the Secretary of State for Energy and Under construction 2058.53 Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston Awaiting construction 5007.05 and Surbiton (Mr Davey); the Department retains details Planning submitted 6148.74 of their location and scale. 977W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 978W

Wind Power: Seas and Oceans Due to small sample sizes estimates of the number of self-employed people in each constituency is also not available. As an alternative Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for table 1 shows the number of people in self-employment for the Energy and Climate Change what records his UK and each region, according to APS survey responses during Department keeps of the (a) number and (b) location for the 12 month period ending December 2012, the latest available of all (i) current and (ii) planned offshore wind period, along with estimates for the 12 month periods ending in December for 2008 to 2011. turbines in the UK. [153011] Tables 2 and 3 show the number of people in full-time or Michael Fallon: The Department maintains the renewable part-time employment, according to APS survey responses, for energy planning database (REPD) that tracks all renewable each parliamentary constituency in Great Britain for the 12 month energy projects, including offshore wind, through the period ending December 2012, the latest available period, along planning system. This database provides, amongst other with estimates for the 12 month periods ending in December for things, details on the installed capacity of the developments 2008 to 2011. Estimates for parliamentary constituencies in Northern Ireland are not available. As this data is quite extensive a copy has and actual site location: been placed in the House of Commons Library. https://restats.decc.gov.uk/app/reporting/decc/monthlyextract As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject The Crown Estate has published a number of maps to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates showing the locations of current offshore wind farms is given in the tables. Due to the size of the tables, they will be and potential future offshore wind farms. These are stored in the library of the house. publicly available and can be found at: National and local area estimates for many labour market http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/energy-infrastructure/ statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant downloads/maps-and-gis-data/ count are available on the NOMIS website at http:// www.nomisweb.co.uk

CABINET OFFICE 10 Downing Street Electronic Government

Ms Abbott: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how much 10 Downing Street spent on (a) Office what assessment he has made of the volume and cosmetics, (b) maintaining the Downing Street gardens success of phishing emails purporting to come from and (c) pre-organised events and receptions in (i) 2010, Government sites. [151811] (ii) 2011, (iii) 2012 and (iv) 2013 to date. [152587] Mr Maude: There has been no expenditure on cosmetics. Miss Chloe Smith: The Government takes cyber security Spending on maintaining the Downing street gardens extremely seriously which is why we are investing for 2009-10 and 2010-11 was agreed under the previous £650 million over four years to respond to threats from Administration. The figures are: £56,027 for 2009-10 cyberspace and bolster the UK’s cyber defences. and £49,060 for 2010-11. The cost of maintaining the We do not keep statistics centrally of how many gardens for 2011-12 was £47,321. phishing messages purport to come from Government Figures for 2012-13 will be available once the Cabinet sites. Millions are sent via the Internet every month. Office accounts for that year have been published. HMRC recently published an assessment of the number Information on official and charity receptions held at of new phishing websites set up at: 10 Downing street is published annually. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2013/level-tax-playing- The latest information can be found on the Cabinet field.pdf Office website. A copy has been placed in the Library of Action Fraud, the UK’s national fraud and internet the House. crime reporting centre, has been’ enhanced to provide. a Conditions of Employment reporting mechanism for online fraud including phishing. In addition, the Government supports initiatives such Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet as Get safe Online: Office how many people were working (a) on full-time www.getsafeonline.org contracts, (b) on part-time contracts, (c) on zero-hour contracts and (d) in a self-employed capacity in each to provide information and advice to people on how to parliamentary constituency in each of the last five avoid becoming a victim of phishing attacks. years. [152385] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Government Procurement Card responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Letter from Glen Watson, dated April 2013: Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Office what guidance or instructions have been issued have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking to staff in (a) his Department and (b) its arm’s length how many people were working (a) on full-time contracts, (b) on bodies about the timing of the publication of data part-time contracts, (c) on zero-hour contracts and (d) in a relating to spend over (i) £25,000 and (ii) £500 using the self-employed capacity in each parliamentary constituency in Government Procurement Card. [141492] each of the last five years. (152385) The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles labour Mr Maude: Guidance has been published in the HM market statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey (APS), following International Labour Organisation (ILO) Treasury’s website: definitions. Estimates of the number of zero hour contracts are http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ not available from this source. government_spend280211.pdf 979W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 980W

Pay annually on the ONS website. The latest statistical bulletin also includes analysis of the impact of registration delays on UK suicide statistics: Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- what criteria are used in (a) his Department and (b) releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-29400 each public body for which he is responsible to Figures for suicides in Scotland for deaths registered between determine which officials receive bonus payments. 1974 and 2011 are available from the General Register Office for [151126] Scotland’s website: http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/statistics/theme/vital-events/ Mr Maude: Since 2010-11 the Government has restricted deaths/suicides/index.html performance related payments for senior civil servants Figures for suicides in Northern Ireland for deaths registered to the top 25% of performers (from 65% in previous between 1970 and 2011 are available from the Northern Ireland years), saving the taxpayer around £15 million. Statistics & Research Agency website: In my Department and the public bodies for which I http://www.nisra.gov.uk/demography/default.asp31.htm am responsible, the criteria used to determine which officials receive end of year bonus payments is based on Termination of Employment annual individual performance following relative assessment against one’s peers and drawing from the feedback of Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Ministers where appropriate. how many officials in (a) his Department and (b) each Individual officers within my Department and each of its non-departmental public bodies have left that public body are also eligible for in-year bonus payments body due to (i) resignation, (ii) retirement, (iii) which reward and recognise exceptional, significant or redundancy, (iv) transferral to another public sector valuable achievements outside of an officer’s agreed post and (v) another reason in each of the last five objectives. years. [147943]

Suicide Mr Maude: The following table sets out figures for staff leaving the Cabinet Office and its non-departmental public bodies: Ian Paisley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many people committed suicide in the UK Cabinet Office main Department in 2012. [152947] Leaving reason 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Resignation 44 36 66 49 58 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Retirement 10 17 22 8 15 asked the authority to reply. Redundancy 019011 Letter from Glen Watson, dated April 2013: Transfer 170 190 170 194 258 to OGD As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many Other 59 66 117 131 55 people committed suicide in UK in 2012. (152947) Total 283 310 384 382 397 Figures are only available for deaths registered by 31 December Cabinet Office NDPBs 2011. In 2011 there were 6,045 suicides registered in the UK. Leaving ONS reports suicide statistics using the number of deaths reason 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 registered rather than deaths that occurred in each calendar year. In England and Wales all suicides are certified by a coroner Resignation 10 14 14 18 27 following an inquest. The death cannot be registered until the Retirement 52500 inquest is completed, which can take many months or even years. Redundancy 4 4 4 92 4 ONS is not notified that a death has occurred until it is registered, Transfer 74438 unless the coroner adjourns an inquest while awaiting prosecution to OGD in a higher court. The latest statistical bulletin showed that the Other 7 11 21 13 4 median registration delay for suicides was 158 days in England and Wales in 2011. Total 33 35 48 126 43 In Northern Ireland all suicides are certified by a coroner, and cannot be registered until the coroner has completed an investigation. Travel The median registration delay for suicides was 157 days in Northern Ireland in 2011. Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office In Scotland a death must be registered within eight days. The Procurator Fiscal has a duty to investigate all sudden, suspicious, (1) how many officials in his (a) Department and (b) accidental, unexpected or unexplained deaths and any death its non-departmental public bodies travelled on (i) occurring in circumstances that give rise to serious public concern, domestic and (ii) international flights in each of the and a Fatal Accident Inquiry may follow. If the results of toxicological last five years; in which class categories; at what total tests or a post mortem are not yet known, the cause of death can cost; and what the monetary value was of the ″ ″ be given as unascertained, pending investigations , and the 20 highest airfare charges in each such year; [152524] actual cause of death will be entered at a later date. Therefore National Records of Scotland (NRS) receive notification of suicides (2) how many officials in the Deputy Prime more quickly than ONS. In 2011 the average registration delay for Minister’s Office travelled on (a) domestic and (b) suicides in Scotland was just seven days, although the death may international flights in each of the last five years; in not have been registered as a suicide initially. which class categories; at what total cost; and what the Figures for suicides in the United Kingdom, England and monetary value was of the 20 highest airfare charges in Wales for deaths registered between 1981 and 2011 are published each such year; [152528] 981W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 982W

(3) how many officials in his (a) Department and spends public money, including on travel. Details of (b) its non-departmental public bodies stayed in hotels overseas travel by all Ministers are published quarterly, in (i) the UK and (ii) every other country during the alongside all spend by Departments over £25,000 and last five years; at what total cost; and what the over £500 on Government Procurement Cards. We are monetary value was of the 20 highest such hotel exploring how we can extend our transparency expenses in each such year; [152548] arrangements to cover senior officials’ travel. (4) how many officials in the Deputy Prime Minister’s Office stayed in hotels in (a) the UK and (b) every other country during the last five years; at what total cost; and what the monetary value was of COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT the 20 highest such hotel expenses in each such year. [152552] Consultants

Mr Maude: To drive up efficiency this Government Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for has established a new central contact for travel arrangements Communities and Local Government how much his and an online booking system. Department and its arm’s length bodies has saved on As was the case under the previous Administration, (a) consultancy costs and (b) contingent labour since officials may travel on departmental business. Those May 2010. [147480] travelling on Government business should always consider the business case for their travel and work to minimise Brandon Lewis: My Department and its arm’s length unnecessary expenditure. bodies have made significant reductions to spending on Since the general election, this Government has consultancy costs and contingent labour, illustrating significantly increased the transparency around how it the scope for sensible savings in the public sector.

Consultancy costs £ million 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

DCLG Central 36.6 13.6 4.3 Arm’s length bodies* 30.0 2.3 0.6 Total 66.6 15.9 4.9 * Methodological notes: 1. The figure for 2009-10 consultancy spending by arm’s length bodies is as given in the answer of 14 July 2010, Official Report, column 756W, in turn, which was based on the 2009-10 Public Sector Procurement Expenditure Survey. Spending from 2010-11 is based on general ledger basis, rather than the public sector procurement expenditure survey. 2. Subsequently, a number of these bodies have been abolished, and figures are not available for the period from 2010-11 up to their abolition. That said, abolished organisations are, of course, no longer spending taxpayers’ money. 3. Overall, our arm’s length bodies reform is on track to deliver expected running costs of £231 million over the spending review period and since May 2010, 11 bodies have closed and two transferred to other Government Departments, up to the end of 2011-12. Of these administrative savings £173 million relate to bodies which have closed. In addition, the Government offices for the regions have also been abolished. 4. We received a nil return from the Building Regulations Advisory Committee.

For the core Department, the bulk of the 2010-11 The bulk of the arm’s length body spending is by the spending on consultancy costs was contractually committed Audit Commission (£6.7 million in 2011-12), reflecting under the last Administration, including consultancy its outsourcing to external audit contractors. on the last Administration’s failed FireControl programme. Contingent labour Correspondence Contingent labour has been interpreted as temporary and agency staff; use of such staff for short-term or John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for specialist work can be better value for money than Communities and Local Government what the hiring staff on permanent contracts. references, dates and subject matters are of letters written by Ministers in his Department to the hon. £ million Member for Birmingham, Yardley constituency since 1 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 February 2013. [152787]

DCLG Central 14.4 4.6 2.9 Brandon Lewis: Since 1 February 2013, DCLG Ministers Arm’s length 19.3 8.3 8.1 have written 10 letters to the hon. Member for Birmingham, bodies .Yardley. References, dates and subject matters are in Total 33.7 12.9 11.0 the following table:

DCLG Ref Your ref Letter date Subject

ER/BL/003971/13 JAMH22777 11 February 2013 Normal pension age for firefighters ER/ER/005184/13 JAMH22811 25 February 2013 Unanswered parliamentary questions N/A N/A 28 February 2013 Social housing: Role of designated persons in complaints handling

MP/002872/13 JAMH22709 6 March 2013 Rent increases

N/A N/A 14 March 2013 High streets update 983W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 984W

DCLG Ref Your ref Letter date Subject

2014 Elections N/A 26 March 2013 Proposals for moving the date of local elections to the same date as European parliamentary elections in 2014 N/A N/A 27 March 2013 Revocation of the Regional Strategy for the West Midlands ER/BL/012354/13 JAMH23175 18 April 2013 Council tax N/A N/A 19 April 2013 Making it easier for families to improve their home T/BL/012055/13 JAMH23183 22 April 2013 JSA claimants entitlement to council tax support

Fire Services drive forward new ideas and policies to help revive the high street. Full details of the Future High Street Forum can be found at: Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he https://www.gov.uk/government/policy-advisory-groups/ has made of the number of chief fire officers opposed future-high-streets-forum to proposals to permit the spinning out of fire brigades from fire authorities. [153127] Homelessness

Brandon Lewis: The Government has made no such Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment. All decisions on service delivery are made Communities and Local Government how much has by individual fire and rescue authorities. I have set out been spent by his Department on preventing and my position on supporting locally-led mutuals in my tackling homelessness in each of the last five years. answer on 7 March 2013, Official Report, column 1121W. [152964]

Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: The following table sets out the total Communities and Local Government if he will place in amount of Homelessness Prevention Grant funding the Library all responses to the letter sent by his allocated to local authorities over the last five years. Department dated 21 November 2012 as part of a Preventing homelessness funding pre-consultation about proposals to permit the Local authorities £ spinning out of fire and rescue services from fire authorities. [153128] 2009-10 51,434,870 2010-11 52,257,370 Brandon Lewis: I refer the hon. Member to my answer 2011-12 81,500,000 of 18 March 2013, Official Report, columns 476-77W. 2012-13 81,500,000 2013-14 80,000,000 In addition I have set out my position on mutuals in my answer on 7 March 2013, Official Report, column The Homelessness Prevention Grant totals provided 1121W, and I also refer the hon. Member to the copy of above are the baseline figures and exclude funding that my letter deposited in the Library of the House further has previously been rolled into the grant to cover local to the answer of 22 April 2013, Official Report, column court desk provision and under occupancy and tenancy 579W. fraud and additional funding provided in year. On top of the baseline grant we provided an additional High Street Review £32,180,342 over two years (2009-10 and 2010-11) to help authorities meet homelessness pressures in their Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for area and in 2011-12, we provided an additional £18,620,000 Communities and Local Government how many of the for authorities to tackle single homelessness. More recently actions recommended by the Portas Review have been we invested an additional £1,700,000 over two years taken forward by his Department. [153118] (2012-13 to 2013-14) in a new scheme to support local authorities to deliver a ’Gold Standard’ homelessness prevention service. Mr Prisk: The Mary Portas Review made 28 recommendations about what Government, local We have also provided £17,358,000 in 2009-10 and authorities, businesses and communities could each do £19,000,002 in 2011-12 to help authorities prevent to help high streets to be vibrant and successful. The repossessions. Government published its response to the Portas Review We are also providing £42,500,000 capital funding on 30 March 2012, accepting 27 of the 28 recommendations. under the Homelessness Change programme over three There are many success stories of how communities are years (2011-12 to 2014-15) which falls under the Affordable now developing innovative solutions to develop their Homes programme. high streets. We published an update in our “Future of From the 1 April 2012, affordable housing funding the High Street” on 25 March at: for London has been devolved to the Mayor of London. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-future-of- This includes £12,760,000 capital funding for the high-streets Homelessness Change programme. In addition, I have established the Future High Streets Forum. The Forum brings together leaders across retail, Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for property, business, academics, voluntary sector, civil Communities and Local Government (1) how many society and Government to better understand the people aged (a) between 16 and 24 and (b) over 24 in competition town centres across the country face and to (i) Jarrow constituency, (ii) South Tyneside, (iii) the 985W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 986W

North East and (iv) the UK have been accepted as South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK in homeless in each of the last five years; [152965] each of the last five years. [159000] (2) how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) south Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK Mr Prisk: The following table shows the number of have been recorded as homeless in each of the last five homelessness acceptances of households in England and by Gateshead and South Tyneside councils in each years; [153001] year from 2005, broken down by age category and by (3) what estimate he has made of the number of the two priority need categories that relate specifically homeless young people in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) to young people.

Number of households accepted1 as owed a main homelessness duty during the year: 2005 to 2012 By applicant’s age By priority need category Applicant formerly Applicant aged 16 or “in care”, and aged Year Aged 16-24 Over 24 Total 17 years old 18 to 20 years old

England 2005 2— 2— 100,170 8,040 930 2006 31,230 45,630 76,860 5,980 760 2007 26,200 38,770 64,970 4,580 630 2008 23,030 34,480 57,510 3,710 610 2009 16,690 25,100 41,780 2,490 510 2010 15,480 26,920 42,390 1,660 550 2011 17,050 31,460 48,510 1,370 690 2012 17,220 36,230 53,450 1,110 700 Gateshead 2005 2— 2— 3— 3— 3— 2006 581 19 0 2007 199 -462 661 14 3 2008 151 369 520 7 1 2009 117 256 373 5 2 2010 77 202 279 1 6 2011 46 116 162 0 0 2012 49 173 222 0 0 South Tyneside 2005 2— 2— 309 21 2 2006 123 156 279 14 0 2007 103 150 253 7 0 2008 81 133 214 2 0 2009 53 123 176 2 0 2010 74 143 217 1 0 2011 94 229 323 6 2 2012 113 198 311 2 2 1 Households eligible under homelessness legislation, found to be unintentionally homeless and in a priority need category, and consequently owed a main homelessness duty 2 Figures were not collected. 3 Not reported by the local authority. Source: DCLG P1E Homelessness returns (quarterly)

The Ministerial Working Group on Homelessness’s deliver a ‘Gold Standard’ homelessness prevention service second report ‘Making every contact count’, focuses on to stem future increases in statutory homelessness and preventing homelessness and stresses the importance of rough sleeping. supporting vulnerable young people to make a successful Housing transition to adulthood. It champions a model of a ’positive youth accommodation pathway’ for those who cannot stay within the family network or are leaving Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for care and we are now working with authorities and Communities and Local Government (1) how much voluntary sector organisations to promote the pathway. has been top-sliced from local government funding in The report can be obtained from the Department’s each region of the UK to fund the new homes bonus in website at: each year since the scheme began; and how much has been returned to local authorities in each region of the www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-every-contact- UK in new homes bonus payments each year; [152465] count-a-joint-approach-to-preventing-homelessness (2) how much was top-sliced from the funding given We are investing £470 million over four years (2011-12 to each local authority to fund the new homes bonus in to 2014-15) on homelessness prevention and also invested each year since its introduction; and how much each an additional £1.7 million over two years (2012-13 to local authority received through the new homes bonus 2013-14) in a new scheme to support local authorities in each such year. [152620] 987W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 988W

Mr Prisk [holding answer 22 April 2013]: The full Immigration amount of the New Homes Bonus for 2011-12 was met from Department for Communities and Local Government Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for funding, with no local government top-slice. For each Communities and Local Government what estimate the of the years 2012-13, 2013-14 and 2014-15, £250 million research commissioned by his Department entitled, was allocated to the New Homes Bonus from Department Identifying social and economic push and pull factors for Communities and Local Government funding. Funding for migration to the UK by Bulgarian and Romanian beyond these levels comes from Formula Grant. nations made of the annual number of future In 2012-13, £176 million was transferred from Formula immigrants from Romania and Bulgaria. [152497] Grant to fund the New Homes Bonus. In 2013-14, £418 million is being transferred. This funding is transferred Mr Prisk [holding answer 22 April 2013]: Further to prior to the calculation of formula funding. The amount the written statement of 10 October 2011, Official of grant that has been top-sliced at an authority or Report, column 3WS, the report has been available in regional level is therefore not available. The Local the public domain since October 2011. Government Finance settlement does not operate on a regional basis. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120104120950/ http://communities.gov.uk/archived/general-content/ Allocations of New Homes Bonus by local authority corporate/researcharchive/volume8immigration/ have been placed in the Library of the House at the time This analysis was commissioned by the last of announcing final allocations in each year. This Administration and should be treated with some caution; Department no longer publishes statistics at a regional the research document was not peer-reviewed; and some level, I refer the hon. Member of 18 September 2012, of the groupings used in the analysis contain small Official Column , columns 32-33WS. The New Homes numbers that are based on a sample survey. The right Bonus does not operate on a regional basis. hon. Member will wish to draw his own conclusions on its contents. Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing

David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government Finance Communities and Local Government if he will make it his policy to guarantee a tenancy agreement allowing Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State pet ownership for those wanting to downsize due to for Communities and Local Government what changes to housing benefit. [152462] assessment he has made of (a) the criteria by which the future financial settlement for local authorities and Mr Prisk: Most social landlords set out their pet English regions should be determined and (b) the policies in their tenancy agreements and will allow desirability or otherwise of replacing the Barnett residents to keep pets where it is appropriate to do so. Formula by a needs-based allocation of government The circumstances in which pets may be kept is however finances that takes into account variable divisions of properly for landlords to determine locally, taking account expenditure between the regions of England. [151665] of the views of their tenants, rather than a matter for prescription by central Government. Brandon Lewis: The 2013-14 Local Government Finance settlement provides information on the basis of the Housing: Carbon Emissions calculation of funding for English local authorities, the first under the new business rates retention scheme. The Martin Caton: To ask the Secretary of State for settlement marks a fundamental change in the way in Communities and Local Government with reference to which local government is funded so councils that strive his Department’s consultation on revision of Part L of to grow their business rates will find themselves rewarded Building Regulations, March 2012, what assessment he with increased revenue. We have abolished regional has made of the effect on (a) the heat pump market, government in England, and the local government finance (b) taxation levels, (c) jobs and (d) progress towards system operates on a local, not regional basis. The the UK’s carbon dioxide reductions targets of reducing defunct government office regions are arbitrary lines on the annual carbon dioxide saved from new homes from amap. 23 to 8 per cent. [152871] As set out in the coalition programme for Government, the Government recognises concerns expressed about Mr Foster: An assessment of carbon dioxide savings, the system of devolution funding. However, at this time the regulatory impact on business and competition the priority remains the reduction of the deficit left by issues were included in the impact assessment published the last Administration and therefore any consideration alongside last year’s consultation on revisions to Part L of change to the system must await the stabilisation of of the Building Regulations in England. This can be the public finances. found at: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for attachment_data/file/8390/2076716.pdf Communities and Local Government what Following the Budget commitment to provide zero information his Department holds on the (a) total carbon homes from 2016, the Government, will announce level of debt and (b) annual payments on debt interest its decision on changes to Part L of the Building Regulations per local authority in England (i) excluding and (ii) by May 2013. A final proposal stage impact assessment including the Housing Revenue Account in the most will be published. recent year for which figures are available. [152478] 989W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 990W

Mr Prisk: I have today placed in the Library of the publish separate arrears figures for geographical areas House a table showing, for each local authority in within the UK, such as regions, parliamentary constituencies England: or local authority areas. (a) total external debt as at 31 March 2012; Mortgage arrears are calculated in terms of the balance (b) total external interest payments and interest payments in arrears and how many monthly payments this represents. where directed to the Housing Revenue Account for 2012-13. At the end of 2012, 97,200 UK mortgages were between These data are as reported to the Department for three to six monthly payments in arrears. This is its Communities and Local Government on the annual lowest level since 2008, and 30,500 fewer mortgages in capital outturn return and the revenue account budget arrears than the peak seen in the first quarter of 2009. form. DCLG does not hold separate debt figures for the At the end of 2012, there were a total of 215,700 UK housing revenue account. The figures for interest payments mortgages more than three monthly payments in arrears. directed to the housing revenue account can include This is lower than any of the four years preceding it, interest paid in respect of internal borrowing from the and significantly fewer than the peak of 275,800 in authority’s other accounts. DCLG does not hold 2009. information on interest payments charged to the housing revenue account prior to 2012-13. Total UK mortgages more than three months in arrears at end of Local Government: ICT year 2008 219,000 Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 275,800 Communities and Local Government when he will 2010 247,500 bring forward measures to allow town and parish 2011 225,600 councils to (a) make online payments and (b) send 2012 215,700 agendas electronically. [152866] The Government is helping homeowners in difficulty— Brandon Lewis: Having consulted on proposals to use including those with high levels of arrears—by tackling a legislative reform order to remove the statutory obstacles the record deficit inherited from the last Administration to parish councils making online payments, we expect to prevent a rapid increase in interest rates hitting to announce shortly how we intend to proceed. We also struggling households. intend to announce how, through secondary legislation, We are committed to working closely with lenders, we will remove any doubts about councils’ ability to debt advice agencies and local authorities to ensure that send agendas electronically. repossession is only ever a last resort and that effective help and advice for homeowners at risk of repossession Lost Property is available. www.gov.uk/repossession/get-advice Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for outlines the options available to households. Communities and Local Government if he could A range of Government support is in place to help provide a list of the property stolen in his Department homeowners at risk of repossession. Targeted support since May 2010; and what the value of such stolen includes the Department for Communities and Local property was. [135442] Government funded £221 million Mortgage Rescue Scheme, aimed at vulnerable homeowners at risk of Brandon Lewis: I refer the hon. Member to my answer repossession which has been improved to deliver better of 18 December 2012, Official Report, column 694W. value for money for the taxpayer. Applications for the There are were nine other assorted items stolen in scheme are considered by local authorities across England that stated period, worth £770. as part of their duties to prevent homelessness. Support for mortgage interest, paid as part of DWP benefits, Mortgages remains available to help eligible out of work households meet their monthly interest payments. Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department announced £20 million funding for Communities and Local Government (1) how many preventing repossessions in February last year which private residential mortgage accounts for properties in provides additional options for local housing authorities (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the to tackle repossessions in their local area. South Tyneside North East and (d) the UK were in arrears for more council received £92,128 for a Preventing Repossessions than 90 days in each of the last five years; [152960] Fund which can be used to offer small interest free loans or grants to households at risk of repossession to (2) how many private residential mortgage accounts address immediate short-term financial difficulties and for properties in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South avoid households becoming homeless due to mortgage Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK were in possession. arrears in each of the last five years. [152961]

Mr Prisk: The Department does not produce statistics Non-Domestic Rates: Shops on the number of mortgages that are in arrears. The Council of Mortgage Lenders does, however, publish Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for statistics on the number of UK mortgages that are in Communities and Local Government what assessment arrears as part of its Regulated Mortgage Survey, which he has made of the effects of business rates on can be found on their website. It does not, however, independent shops. [153055] 991W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 992W

Brandon Lewis: Our commitment to hold business (4) which organisations he consulted before rate rises to the annual retail prices index cap means removing the minimum five-house threshold for there has been no real terms increase in business rates section 106 agreements in the National Planning since 1990. In addition, we have also postponed the Framework in 2012. [148133] revaluation of business premises from 2015 to 2017 to provide certainty and stability; doubled the level of Nick Boles [holding answer 18 March 2013]: The small business rate relief for a further year (the whole of draft National Planning Policy Framework was 2013-14); made it easier to claim small business rate subject to full public consultation and included local relief; and given authorities powers to provide their own workshop events across the country and many business rates discounts, as they see fit. ministerial meetings with interested parties, on the draft framework. The Government considered all consultation Pay responses before producing the final version of the framework. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what allowances Information on planning applications made to local and subsidies in addition to salary were available to planning authorities is not centrally held; they are a officials in (a) his Department and (b) its non- matter for the local planning authority unless are appealed. departmental public bodies in each of the last five We have introduced reforms to help developers and years; and what the monetary value was of such landowners renegotiate economically unrealistic affordable payments and allowances in each such year. [148039] housing requirements in section 106 agreements, and to deliver more private and affordable housing than would Brandon Lewis: A full breakdown of the monetary otherwise be the case. value of each type of allowance and subsidy paid in Any affordable housing requirements in section 106 addition to salary for the last two financial years will be planning obligations are sought, negotiated and placed in the Library of the House. applied locally by the local planning authority. The For information on allowances and subsides in addition National Planning Policy Framework is absolutely clear to salary for the period 2009-10 and 2010-11, I refer my that local planning authorities must have regard to hon. Friend to the answer given on 8 March 2012, economic viability in their consideration of section 106 Official Report, column 861W, where the information obligations. requested was placed in the Library of the House. As announced on 15 April, my department is currently Allowances and subsides in addition to salary for the consulting on proposals to exempt self-build from the financial period 2008-09, I refer my hon. Friend to the community infrastructure levy. We are open to answer given on 25 October 2010, Official Report, column representations on the broader issues of planning 87W. contributions and self-build. The Department for Communities and Local Government does not hold information centrally on Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 allowances and subsidies made to staff within its agencies prior to 2009-10. The Department is reviewing its allowances and subsidies Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for as part of wider work to review its overall pay structure. Communities and Local Government what steps his Department has taken to implement the Public Based on current estimates, the DCLG Group is Services (Social Value) Act 2012. [153112] reducing its annual running costs by 41% in real terms by 2014-15. This equates to net savings of at least £532,000,000 over this spending review period. Brandon Lewis: Local spending decisions are for local authorities themselves, but central Government have a Our departmental audited annual accounts for the significant role in creating the conditions for effective core Department show that total staff costs fell from local procurement. £216 million in 2009-10 to £109 million in 2011-12; this is an annual saving of £107,000,000. Our approach has been to influence and encourage the sector to streamline their procurement functions Planning Obligations and open up tenders to a wider range of potential suppliers, including small and medium sized enterprises John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for as well as voluntary and community groups. Communities and Local Government (1) what plans he To help local authorities acquire the skills to better has to review the effect of the removal of the threshold commission services we are working with the Cabinet to one house for section 106 agreements following the Office and the Local Government Association to provide introduction of the National Planning Framework in accessible learning opportunities on commissioning skills 2012; [148130] for all council officers. We will also shortly be announcing (2) how many local authorities have received no the winners of the “Best councils to do business with” single-dwelling planning applications after removing contest, which will identify those local authorities that the minimum five-house threshold for section 106 are doing the most to open up their procurement practices agreements following the introduction of the National to small business, including voluntary and community Planning Framework in 2012; [148131] groups, and will then share their good practice throughout (3) how many local authorities have reduced the the sector. threshold to one house for section 106 agreements The Department continues to support the following the introduction of the National Planning implementation of the Community Right to Challenge. Framework in 2012; [148132] The Right enables voluntary and community groups to 993W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 994W put forward proposals to deliver local government services, PRIME MINISTER which must be considered by the local authority. An expression of interest under the Right must include Travel information on how the proposals will promote the social, economic and environmental well-being of the Priti Patel: To ask the Prime Minister (1) how many area and this must be reflected in any procurement officials in No. 10 Downing Street travelled on (a) exercise carried out as a result. domestic and (b) international flights in each of the last five years; in which class categories; at what total In addition, the Cabinet Office has written directly to cost; and what the monetary value was of the 20 local authorities to raise awareness of the new Act. highest airfare charges in each such year; [152540] (2) how many officials in No. 10 Downing Street stayed in hotels in (a) the UK and (b) every other Sick Leave country during the last five years; at what total cost; and what the monetary value was of the 20 highest Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for such hotel expenses in each such year. [152564] Communities and Local Government how many officials in (a) his Department and (b) each of its Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply on behalf of non-departmental public bodies have had (i) fewer than the Cabinet Office. five days, (ii) five to 10 days, (iii) 10 to 15 days, (iv) 15 to The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral part of the 20 days, (v) 20 to 25 days, (vi) 25 to 50 days, (vii) 50 to Cabinet Office. 75 days, (viii) 75 to 100 days, (ix) 100 to 150 days, (x) To drive up efficiency this Government has established 150 to 200 days, (xi) more than 200 days, (xii) more a new central contact for travel arrangements and an than three months, (xiii) more than six months and online booking system. (xiv) more than one year on paid sick leave (A) As was the case under the previous Administration, consecutively and (B) in total in each of the last five officials may travel on departmental business. Those years. [148001] travelling on Government business should always consider the business case for their travel and work to minimise Brandon Lewis: I have placed a table in the Library of unnecessary expenditure. the House for the central Department and its three executive agencies for short-term and long-term absence. Since the general election, this Government has Data for the Department’s Non-Departmental Public significantly increased the transparency around how it Bodies is not held centrally. The full information requested spends public money, including on travel. Details of could be provided only at disproportionate cost. overseas travel by all Ministers are published quarterly, alongside all spend by Departments over £25,000 and The core Department’s absence rate in 2012 was over £500 on Government Procurement Cards. We are 6.1 average working days lost per member of staff. This exploring how we can extend our transparency is lower than the civil service average of 7.6 days and arrangements to cover senior officials’ travel. below the private sector average of 7.1 (based on the CIPD20 measure). I also refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 15 April 2013, Official Report, columns 222-23W, on the steps CHURCH COMMISSIONERS we are taking to reduce such absence. Archbishop of Canterbury

Miss McIntosh: To ask the honourable Member for Social Rented Housing Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners what issues the new Archbishop of Canterbury intends Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for to prioritise during the early stages of his ministry. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the [147419] answer of 27 February 2013, Official Report, column 477W, on social rented housing, whether mortgage Sir Tony Baldry: Early indications as to the priorities providers have been informed of his Department’s of the Archbishop can be seen in a number of ways such as the appointment of new staff at Lambeth, the initiative to bring empty homes back into use. [151810] first ever woman chaplain to an Archbishop of Canterbury and a director of reconciliation. Other priorities clearly Mr Prisk: Full details of all the empty homes initiatives include his concerns for public spiritual renewal, peace were made available on the Department’s website as building and reconciliation, as well as tackling economic they were announced: deprivation and support for marginalised communities. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/funding-boost-will- help-stop-the-rot-of-empty-homes https://www.gov.uk/government/news/community-groups-to- bring-2-000-empty-homes-back-to-life-with-government-help BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS https://www.gov.uk/government/news/145-million-boost-to- Business: ICT help-communities-tackle-empty-homes https://www.gov.uk/government/news/first-cash-for-neglected- Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for neighbourhoods-to-bring-empty-homes-back-into-use Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what assessment his Officials from the Department for Communities and Department has made of the effect of the movement of Local Government regularly meet with the Council of digital products to cloud computing services on small Mortgage Lenders to discuss a range of matters. businesses; [153139] 995W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 996W

(2) what assessment his Department has made of GCE AS-level steps taken to encourage the adoption of technology by small businesses; [153146] Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) what representations his Department has made to Business, Innovation and Skills which universities large software companies on improving accessibility of currently use AS levels as a means of assessing technology to small businesses; and what assessment applicant potential during admission decisions. [145850] his Department has made of the effect of pricing plans Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 4 March 2013]: I for single- and multi-user licences on the adoption of have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department technology by small businesses. [153147] for Education. Michael Fallon: In developing the forthcoming We know that universities use a range of information information economy strategy, the Department for Business, and evidence about applicants for admissions purposes. Innovation and Skills is considering the impact and Even within individual universities, there may be a opportunities new technologies offer UK businesses. variety of approaches between subjects. Changes to the This has included dialogue with the sector about helping AS and A-levels mean that some universities may need companies, understand the opportunities they can access to make changes to admissions processes. However, in the fields of big data analytics, cloud computing and Ofqual’s consultation on A-level reform found that for the online economy. Following completion of a pilot, many universities, the removal of AS would not have a we are working with the sector to develop a collaborative major impact on selection processes. programme to encourage small businesses to transact Staff online and make greater use of ICT to drive growth. As announced in the Budget, the Government intend Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for to provide small businesses in England with £30 million Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of growth vouchers to help them overcome barriers to of 17 April 2013, Official Report, column 492W, on growth, which may include the adoption of new technology. senior civil servants, how many staff have (a) resigned, No assessment has been made of pricing plans for (b) taken voluntary early retirement and (c) taken software licences as these are matters for commercial long-term sick leave in each year since 2009. [152913] negotiation. The move to cloud based digital services provides small businesses with an opportunity to reduce Jo Swinson: In June 2009 the Department for Business capital costs and adopt a pay-as-you-go model. Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) was merged with the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (DIUS) to create the Department for Business, Exports: Government Assistance Innovation and Skills (BIS); therefore we only have access to data from this date. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for The following table shows the number of staff who Business, Innovation and Skills whether an application have (a) resigned, (b) taken voluntary early retirement for approval under EU state aid rules has been and (c) taken long-term sick leave in each year. submitted in relation to the Export Refinancing Facility. [152909] (b) Voluntary (c) Long-term (a) Resigned early retirement sick1

Michael Fallon: No application has yet been made. 2009 50 2 21 2010 102 196 78 Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 74 65 99 Business, Innovation and Skills by what date he expects 2012 71 3 102 the Export Refinancing Facility to be operational. 2013 16 47 20 [152910] Totals 313 313 320 1 Defined as over 21 working days or 29 calendar days. Some long-term cases Michael Fallon: The Export Refinancing Facility is may over-lap calendar years. Numbers given from when absence started. still being developed; at this stage it is not possible to predict when it will become operational. HEALTH Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for 22q Deletion Syndrome Business, Innovation and Skills whether an application for approval under EU state aid rules has been Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for submitted in relation to the Direct Lending Scheme Health if he will adopt the national consensus administered by UK Export Finance. [152911] document on the diagnosis and management of 22q deletion syndrome as NHS policy; and if he will make Michael Fallon: No application has been made. a statement. [152507]

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Anna Soubry [holding answer 22 April 2013]: The Business, Innovation and Skills by what date he expects commissioning of specialised services is the responsibility the Direct Lending Scheme administered by UK of NHS England. Export Finance to be operational. [152912] NHS England have advised me that they will establish a Rare Diseases Advisory Group, which will be coordinated Michael Fallon: The Direct Lending Scheme is still by the Highly Specialised Services Portfolio team in being developed. At this stage it is not possible to NHS England Medical Directorate. Clinical Reference predict when the facility will become operational. Groups with patient and carer engagement have been 997W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 998W established for congenital heart disease and for multi-system NHS England disorders. They will review the service specification in Number of domestic travellers for 2012-13 is 22. 2013-14 and will consider the national consensus document Number of international travellers for 2012-13 is seven. as part of their review. Consideration will also be given Total costs for air travel for 2012-13 is £13,658. to whether any clinical access policies are required in order to ensure excellent care for the complex issues Cost of top 20 air travel is £10,949 relating to 22q11 deletion syndrome. There is no categorisation of class of travel given. Departmental information relates to flights captured Air Travel by third party travel management systems (approximately 92% of transactions) and costs incurred by individuals Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and reclaimed through the internal Business Management how many officials in his (a) Department and (b) System (BMS) (approximately 8% of transactions) that non-departmental public bodies travelled on (i) was introduced in July 2008. This has resulted in only domestic and (ii) international flights in each of the nine months data being available for 2008-09 via BMS. last five years; in which class categories; at what total cost; and what the monetary value was of the 20 Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse highest airfare charges in each such year. [152534] Dr Poulter: Information held by both the Department Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and its non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) where what plans he has to reduce the cost to the public purse available for the fast five financial years 2008-09 to of use of the NHS to treat illnesses traced to alcohol 2012-13 is in the following table. Responses have been abuse. [152466] provided for the years that each NDPB has been in existence. Where organisations have been unable to Anna Soubry: The Government’s Alcohol Strategy, provide certain information, due to it not being held or published on 23 March 2012, brings together the because compilation would result in disproportionate Government’s approach to reducing the incidence of cost, an entry of ‘Not Available’ has been declared. The alcohol-related disease and crime. six NDPBs were: NHS England, Care Quality Commission The strategy includes a range of actions such as: (CQC), Monitor, Human Fertilisation and Embryology proposals to tackle the availability of cheap alcohol; Authority (HFEA), and the Health Protection Agency an industry pledge through the responsibility deal to take (HPA). 1 billion units out of the market by 2015; HFEA and HPA are unable to provide information building on the introduction of a ring—fenced public health due to disproportionate cost. grant to local authorities in England through greater use of brief The Department is unable to provide data on the interventions, specialised alcohol treatment, and alcohol liaison number and class of traveller for all years. nurses within hospital emergency departments; and in England, we are funding an alcohol check within the NHS Total flight and top 20 costs Health Check for adults aged between 40 and 74 for the first time £ from April 2013. Total cost 20 highest fare cost The Government sought views on a number of measures 2008-09 1,112,978 128,462 set out in the Alcohol Strategy, in a consultation published 2009-10 811,677 123,796 by the Home Office on 28 November, which concluded 2010-11 428,138 134,470 on 6 February. We will set out a response in due course. 2011-12 158,580 81,712 Dame Sally Davies, the chief medical officer, will 2012-13 196,292 105,668 oversee a review of the alcohol guidelines to ensure they are based on the best possible evidence. The CQC are unable to provide information on class of travel. Public Health England (PHE) is the new Executive agency of the Department of Health with the role of Details of CQC domestic, international travellers by supporting local authorities responsible for public health. year, total cost flight and 20 highest fares. PHE will provide data, evidence and support to local

Number of Number of authorities and national health service partners to enable domestic international Total cost 20 highest them to reduce the harmful impact from alcohol in travellers travellers (£) fare cost (£) local communities.

2009-10 130 10 52,519 9,202 PHE will also encourage greater use of effective 2010-11 78 10 34,414 6,176 interventions, such as brief interventions, alcohol 2011-12 108 5 38,701 8,911 interventions in secondary NHS care and the treatment 2012-13 212 5 53,700 8,072 of dependent drinkers. The HTA are unable to provide numbers and Anorexia classification of travellers or the 20 highest costs. Total costs of air travel. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Total cost (£) (1) how many patients were treated in the NHS after presenting with anorexia nervosa in each of the last 2008-09 429 10 years; [152861] 2009-10 6,973 2010-11 6,757 (2) what recent representations he has received from 2011-12 5,837 third sector organisations about the quality of anorexia 2012-13 6,363 nervosa care in the NHS; and if he will make a statement; [152862] 999W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1000W

(3) what recent steps he has taken to ensure that services. It is our expectation that this approach will NHS trusts improve the experience of patients result in better planning and co-ordination of specialised suffering from anorexia nervosa; [152863] services, greater equity of access, care and outcomes for (4) what estimate he has made of the number of patients and a more pro-active and systematic approach people suffering from anorexia nervosa who remain to service development, research and innovation. without treatment because (a) treatment is not We have made no such estimate of the number of available to them and (b) they are unwilling to be people suffering from anorexia nervosa who remain treated. [152876] without treatment, for either reason. Dementia Norman Lamb: We do not collect statistics on the number of patients treated in the national health service for anorexia nervosa. However, numbers of finished Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health admission episodes with a primary diagnosis of anorexia what assessment he has made of the findings of the nervosa over the past 10 years are supplied in the Social Care Institute for Excellence on black and following table. The number of episodes does not represent minority ethnic people with dementia and their access the number of patients, as an individual may be admitted to support and services, published in March 2011. to hospital on more than one occasion in any given [152593] year: Norman Lamb: The Department has made no specific A count of finished admission episodes with a primary diagnosis of assessment of the findings of the March 2011 Social Anorexia Nervosa for the years 2002-03 to 2011-12, activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the Care Institute for Excellence publication. In July 2011, independent sector the Department published an equalities action plan for Finished Admission Episodes the national dementia strategy. Local national health service and social care commissioners should consider 2002-03 1,151 the needs of their local population when commissioning 2003-04 1426 services for people with dementia. 2004-05 1,253 2005-06 1,385 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2006-07 1,484 what research he has (a) commissioned and (b) 2007-08 1,473 evaluated on the differential incidence of dementia 2008-09 1,422 among older people of Irish birth or descent; and what 2009-10 1,585 steps he is taking to encourage or commission research 2010-11 1,445 into the awareness, needs and wishes of older Irish 2011-12 1,647 people with dementia and their carers. [152594] Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Dr Poulter: The Department has not commissioned Centre or evaluated research on these specific topics. There have been representations from third sector In March 2012, the Prime Minister’s challenge on organisations concerning eating disorder issues. Policy dementia announced that the combined value of the officials received a note from the eating disorder charity Department’s National Institute for Health Research ‘beat’, enclosing the report ‘Costs of eating disorders in (NIHR), the Medical Research Council and the Economic England: Economic impacts of anorexia nervosa, bulimia and Social Research Council funding for research into nervosa and other disorders, focussing on young people’ dementia will increase from £26.6 million in 2009-10 to which they published jointly with Pro Bono Economics an estimated £66.3 million in 2014-15. This includes and launched in July 2012. £22 million for dementia research projects announced A search of the Department’s ministerial correspondence in December 2012 following the NIHR themed call on database has identified one item of correspondence dementia. from a third sector organisation received since 1 April The NIHR welcomes funding applications for research 2012 about the quality of anorexia nervosa care in the into any aspect—of human health, including dementia NHS. in relation to Irish people in England. These applications The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence are subject to peer review and judged in open competition, (NICE) produced a clinical guideline on the core with awards being made on the basis of the scientific interventions in the treatment and management of anorexia quality of the proposals made. nervosa, bulimia nervosa and related eating disorders in Drugs: Rehabilitation 2004 and this will be updated in 2014. The guidelines give clear recommendations on the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for type of treatments that are available, and set out a Health what funding his Department has allocated to structured pathway of care. NICE has also published drug addiction services in (a) Coventry, (b) the West information for the public that explains the guideline Midlands and (c) England in each of the last three and sets out what people with eating disorders can years. [152383] expect from the NHS. Responsibility for commissioning specialist in-patient Anna Soubry: Central Department of Health funding eating disorders services (both adults and children) for the treatment of adult drug dependence in Coventry, transferred to NHS England on 1 April 2013 and the the West Midlands and England in the last three years is NHS England has consulted on a national service set out in the following table. This money was allocated specification against which it will commission these via. the adult pooled treatment budget. 1001W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1002W

Central Department of Health funding for drug treatment in Coventry, the West temporal association, the possible contribution of Midlands and England for 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13 concomitant medication and the underlying disease £ million being treated. 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Coventry 2.47 2.64 2.80 Hotels West 41.38 42.01 42.11 Midlands Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health England 381.30 381.30 381.30 how many officials in his (a) Department and (b) non-departmental public bodies stayed in hotels in (i) In addition to these sums, £60 million nationally was the UK and (ii) every other country during the last five provided by the Department in 2011-12 and 2012-13 to years; at what total cost; and what the monetary value ensure offenders get access to drug treatment services. was of the 20 highest such hotel expenses in each such This was allocated according to the historic Home year. [152558] Office Drug Intervention Programme formula, but was Dr Poulter: Information held by both the Department distributed through the pooled treatment budget and its non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) where mechanism, supplementing the funding supplied direct available for the last five financial years 2008-09 to to local drugs partnerships by the Home Office. 2012-13 is contained in the following tables. Responses From April 2013, the central funding for drug treatment have been provided for the years that each NDPB has has been included in a wider ring-fenced public health been in existence. Where organisations have been unable grant. This grant, which amounts to £2.7 billion in to provide certain information, due to it not being held 2013-14 and £2.8 billion in 2014-15, is issued to local or compilation would result in disproportionate cost, authorities to support their new public health an entry of ’not available’ has been declared. responsibilities. There is no further ring-fencing of drug The six NDPBs were: NHS England, Monitor, Care and alcohol treatment money within the public health Quality Commission (CQC), Human Fertilisation and budget. Embryology Authority (HFEA), Human Tissue Authority (HTA) and Health Protection Agency (HPA). Drugs: Side Effects HFEA and HPA are unable to provide information due to disproportionate cost. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Department is unable to provide the number of how many patients have suffered from adverse guests who stayed in international or’ United Kingdom reactions to drugs provided by the NHS in (a) each of hotels. the last five years and (b) 2013 to date; and how many Total cost and cost of top 20 hotels for Department such reactions have resulted in death. [152473] were:

Norman Lamb: Reports of ‘suspected’ adverse drug £ reactions (ADRs) are collected by the Medicines and Total cost 20 highest expenses Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and Commission for Human Medicines through the 2008-09 1,739,947 17,469 spontaneous reporting scheme, the Yellow Card scheme. 2009-10 1,858,454 14,649 The scheme collects suspected ADR reports from the 2010-11 1,384,056 13,113 whole of the United Kingdom in relation to all medicines 2011-12 786,457 14,034 and vaccines and does not distinguish between ADRs 2012-13 591,867 18,097 associated with drugs provided by the national health service and drugs received from other sources. The CQC are unable to provide the number of guests who stayed in international or UK hotels or the cost of Between the 1 January 2008 and 31 March 2013 the the top 20 hotels. MHRA has received a total of 132,374 United Kingdom Total cost of hotels for CQC was: spontaneous suspected ADR reports, 7,751 of these were associated with a fatal outcome. The following Total cost (£) table provides a breakdown of these reports by year. 2009-10 1,047,104 Total number of ADR Number of ADR fatal 2010-11 816,926 Receipt year reports reports 2011-12 752,416 2008 25,028 1,278 2012-13 1,014,009 2009 25,465 1/185. 2010 23,310 1,476 HTA are unable to provide the number of guests who 2011 25,145 1,867 stayed in international or UK hotels or the cost of the 2012 26,084 1,554 top 20 hotels. 20131 7,342 391 Total cost of hotels for HTA was: Total 132,374 7,751 1 ADR reports for 2013 comprise reports received between the 1 January 2013 Total cost (£) to the 31 March 2013 inclusively. 2008-09 10,965 It is important to note that the reporting of a suspected 2009-10 32,640 adverse reaction does not necessarily mean it is related 2010-11 36,965 to the drug. The reports are ‘suspicions’ of ADRs and 2011-12 35,531 have not been proven. Many factors have to be taken 2012-13 33,866 into account in assessing causal relationships including 1003W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1004W

Monitor are unable to provide the number of guests 92% of transactions) and costs incurred by individuals who stayed in international or UK hotels or the cost of and reclaimed through the internal Business Management the top 20 hotels. System (BMS) (approximately 8% of transactions) that Total cost of hotels for Monitor was: was introduced in July 2008. This has resulted in only nine months data being available for 2008-09 via BMS. Total cost (£) Liver Diseases 2008-09 47,244 2009-10 24,217 2010-11 17,288 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2011-12 21,071 how many NHS admissions for alcoholic liver disease 2012-13 34,520 there have been in (a) each of the last five years and (b) 2013 to date. [152470] NHS England Anna Soubry: The following table contains a count of Number of domestic guests 2011-12 was 370. finished admission episodes with a primary diagnosis Number of international guests 2011-12 was three. code of alcoholic liver disease for the whole years Total cost of hotels in 2011-12 was £250,891. 2007-08 to 2011-12 and for April to December 2012. Cost of top 20 hotels in 2011-12 was £3,879. It should be noted that these figures are not a count Departmental information relates to hotels captured of people as the same person may have been admitted by third party travel management systems (approximately on more than one occasion in any given year.

A count of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 with a primary diagnosis of alcoholic liver disease3 for the whole years 2007-08 to 2011-124 and for April to December 20125 FAEs

2007-08 14,461 2008-09 14,370 2009-10 14,886 2010-11 15,858 2011-12 16,865 2012-135 (April-December 2012) 12,306 1 Finished admissions episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 2 Primary diagnosis The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and 7 prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. 3 ICD codes for alcoholic liver disease K70.0 Alcoholic fatty liver K70.1 Alcoholic hepatitis K70.2 Alcoholic fibrosis and sclerosis of liver K70.3 Alcoholic cirrhosis of liver K70.4 Alcoholic hepatic failure K70.9 Alcoholic liver disease, unspecified 4 Assessing growth through time (inpatients) HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. 5 Provisional Data The data are provisional and may be incomplete or contain errors for which no adjustments have yet been made. Counts produced from provisional data are likely to be lower than those generated for the same period in the final dataset. This shortfall will be most pronounced in the final month of the latest period, i.e. November from the (month 9) April to November extract. It is also probable that clinical data are not complete, which may in particular affect the last two months of any given period. There may also be errors due to coding inconsistencies that have not yet been investigated and corrected. Note: Data quality HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. Health and Social Care Information Centre liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Malnutrition Norman Lamb: The Department does not have figures regarding the number of patients leaving hospital Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health malnourished; hospital episode statistics data allows how many patients have left hospital malnourished in the identification of conditions for which a patient is (a) each of the last five years and (b) 2013 to date. treated during their hospital stay, but does not identify [152471] whether they were malnourished, or suffered from any other condition, at the point of discharge from hospital. 1005W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1006W

From this month, new patient led assessments will As at 1 April to 31 March each year Full-time equivalent staff look at the quality of food and food services in hospitals providing national health service funded care. The new 2010-11 1 patient led assessments will specifically ask patients 2011-12 2 whether they received the meals they ordered and the 2012-13 10 result will contribute to the marking the hospital is 1 External supplier resource was used for investigation work in 2012-13. given. The new assessments will look to make sure that The amount spent solely and specifically on counter-fraud hospitals hit the mark on food and drink, from a investigation over this period was salary costs of the patient’s point of view. staff identified: Good food, and ensuring patients receive the help they need to eat is an essential part of hospital care. As at 1 April to 31 March each year GBP (£) There is a wealth of national guidance available to the 2010-11 52,805 NHS to ensure that excellent nutritional care is the 2011-12 105,418 norm. 2012-13 133,518 Food and drink are one of the 12 areas of practice 1 Plus minor travel and subsistence within the Essence of Care benchmarking system, which The Department is a member of the Cabinet Office covers all aspects of fundamental care. This looks at led Fraud, Error and Debt group and in 2011-12 has screening and assessment of nutritional risk on initial implemented the group’s programme of central contact, such as admission to hospital. In addition, Government anti-fraud activity. This included a staff guidance and toolkits to support the delivery of food in fraud awareness survey; a fraud awareness week; Civil the NHS are available on the Hospital Caterers’ Association service learning anti-fraud e-learning for staff; and website. participation in national fraud initiative data matching Many hospital wards across the country have introduced exercise. the ‘red tray’ scheme, whereby patients at risk of poor All senior civil service have had, under the departmental nutrition are identified for special attention. This initiative statement of internal control process, responsibility to came from an Essence of Care action plan, and although guard against fraud. While we can give some specific not mandatory, is being widely used. numbers on fraud investigation spend and recovery, fraud prevention as a whole is an integral part of NHS: Fraud everyone’s job and does not enable specific reporting on savings. Nor are the true results of fraud prevention Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for activity identifiable. Health (1) what estimate he has made of the benefit in All new starters at the Department are provided with (a) monetary and (b) other terms of his Department’s counter fraud input and have to complete an on-line counter-fraud activities in each of the last five years; assessment as part of induction. Protection of public [153130] funds from fraud is integral to the Department’s operational (2) how many full-time equivalent staff in his work, core processes and at strategic level via governance Department worked in counter-fraud activities in each and internal controls. of the last five years; [153131] With regard to data the Department collects and (3) how much his Department has spent on publishes, limited information is obtained and retained counter-fraud activities in each of the last five years; in accordance with appropriate statute and departmental [153132] policy. Fraud related data published externally is via the Cabinet Office and this data includes recovered/prevented (4) what data his Department (a) publishes about losses as a result of fraud. fraud and (b) collects but does not publish about fraud. [153133] Internal CFIS management information consists of additional information to enable fraud investigations to Dr Poulter: A dedicated Department of Health Counter be carried out. For example, it includes information Fraud Investigation Service (CFIS) commenced on 1 April about fraud allegations/referrals received and how they 2010 to provide reactive investigation resource for internal have been dealt with. The Department’s audit and risk departmental cases. committee is provided with management information Records prior to April 2010 are not separately obtainable. on a regular basis. The information in the following data tables relates NHS: Labour Turnover only to the reactive investigating service. The value of fraud proven and/or identified in the John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Department is shown in the following table: Health whether data on staff turnover in surgical, nursing and managerial positions is used in monitoring Value of fraud proven/identified against the Department the performance of NHS trusts. [153090] As at 1 April to 31 March each year GBP (£)

2010-11 1, 262,100 Dr Poulter: The NHS Trust Development Authority 2011-12 1, 2283,500 uses data such as this in its assessment of national 2012-13 1, 3354,000 health service trusts. The NHS Trust Development 1 Approx. Authority Accountability Framework, published earlier 2 All possible options including criminal (Proceeds of Crime) and civil, are this month, sets out a number of NHS trust performance considered as part of the financial recovery process. indicators which include staff turnover in the quality 3 Criminal mandate fraud attempt prevented. governance section. While the indicators differentiate The numbers of full-time equivalent staff in the between clinical and non-clinical staff, they do not Department who worked in CFIS were: differentiate between professions. 1007W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1008W

John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: We have had no such discussions. The Health what data he holds on the average tenure in National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) managerial posts in individual NHS trusts. [153091] is responsible for providing advice to the national health service in England on the clinical and cost-effectiveness Dr Poulter: The Department does not hold data on of drugs and treatments. the tenure of national health service managers. The NICE is currently appraising the use of Avastin NHS Trust Development Authority will collate information (bevacizumab) in combination with paclitaxel and from NHS trusts about staff turnover, as outlined in its carboplatin for the first-line chemotherapy treatment of Accountability Framework, published earlier this month. ovarian cancer and in combination with gemcitabine However, this does not distinguish between executive and carboplatin for treating the first recurrence of and non-executive positions. platinum-sensitive advanced ovarian cancer (including fallopian tube and primary peritoneal cancer). NICE Official Hospitality has not yet published its final guidance to the NHS for these appraisals. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health In the absence of positive NICE technology appraisal how many officials in (a) his Department and (b) the guidance, local NHS commissioners should make funding non-departmental public bodies for which he is decisions based on an assessment of the available evidence responsible claimed reimbursements for working and on the basis of an individual patient’s clinical lunches and official entertainment in each of the last circumstances. five years; and what the total cost was in each such Where a cancer drug is not routinely funded by the year. [152670] local NHS, patients may be able to access it through the Cancer Drugs Fund. Dr Poulter: The information requested is not held centrally. Official expenditure, including expenses claims, Pain whether by officials in the Department or any of its arm’s length bodies, has to be in line with relevant codes Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State of conduct and of business practice. All such systems for Health pursuant to the contribution by the Minister and processes are subject to external audit. of State for Care and Support on 25 February 2013, Official Report, columns 147-150, what plans he has to Operating Costs introduce a quality standard for chronic pain management. [152921] Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Norman Lamb: The Department has asked the National what level of administrative savings have been made by Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) to his Department in each of the last eight years. [152467] develop a quality standard on pain management for young people and adults as part of a library of Dr Poulter: Administration budgets are Treasury control approximately 180 NHS Quality Standards. NICE has totals set as an outcome of spending reviews and represent not yet published a time scale for the development of the underlying trajectory for recurrent administrative this quality standard. NHS England is now responsible spending. for the strategic direction of NHS quality standards. Over the 2002 spending review period (2004-05 to The mandate to NHS England requires it to deliver 2005-06) the Department’s administration budget fell continued improvements in relation to enhancing the by 10.9% in real terms; in the 2004 spending review quality of life for people with long-term conditions, (2006-07 to 2007-08) it fell by 19.3% in real terms; in the which includes those with chronic pain. 2007 spending review (2008-09 to 2010-11) it fell by 13.3% in real terms; and in the first year of the 2010 Patients: Death Spending review period (2011-12) it fell by 13.6% in real terms. Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many (a) mortality alerts and (b) Each year, the out-turn on administration spend was reviews there have been in the NHS in England in the within budget, demonstrating implicit savings on these last three months; and in how many cases services were spending review settlements. suspended whilst reviews or investigations took place; Each spending review baseline will be set on a slightly [153094] different basis and/or scope because of technical changes (2) how many (a) mortality alerts and (b) reviews to the administration costs regime (eg the treatment of are currently under investigation in the NHS in income), changes to the boundary of the administration England; and in how many cases services have been budget (eg the recent inclusion of some NHS bodies) suspended whilst these take place. [153140] and machinery of government changes. The aggregation of absolute (cash) reductions across this period is not Norman Lamb: The Care Quality Commission (CQC) therefore meaningful as the data is not directly comparable. mortality outliers programme currently has 40 active mortality alerts. Between 22 January 2013 and 22 April Ovarian Cancer 2013, 21 mortality alerts have been generated internally or received as part of the CQC mortality outliers Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health programme. 17 alerts were received from the Dr Foster what discussions his Department has had with the Unit at Imperial College, two mortality alerts were National Institute for Health and Care Excellence on received from the Society for Cardiothoracic Surgery its refusal to provide the drug Avastin on the NHS to and two alerts were generated internally. CQC does not treat ovarian cancer. [152945] carry data numerating how many reviews are currently 1009W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1010W under investigation in the NHS in England. No services Details of the number of staff who left and the cost are being or have been suspended during investigation are shown in the following table. of these mortality outlier alerts. There is a separate review being undertaken by Professor Financial Sir Bruce Keogh (Medical Director of NHS England) year Number of exits Total cost (£ million) into 14 NHS trusts and foundation trusts that have 2007-08 76 7.9 been mortality outliers for the last two consecutive 2008-09 15 2.6 years. They are; 2009-10 18 2.2 Colchester Hospital University NHS Foundation Trust; 2010-11 261 20.3 Tameside Hospital NHS Foundation Trust; 2011-121219 2.3 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust; 1 During 2011-12 the Department also used compulsory redundancy as part of downsizing. Basildon and Thurrock University Hospitals NHS Foundation 2 Figure comprised of 16 voluntary and 3 compulsory exits. Trust; Figures for 2012-13 will be published as part of the East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust; annual reports and accounts. North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust; None of the six non-departmental public bodies for United Lincolnshire Hospitals NHS Trust; which the Secretary of State for Health is responsible, George Eliot Hospital NHS Trust; made any payment under a voluntary exit scheme in Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust; each of the last five years up to 2011-12. Northern Lincolnshire and Goole Hospitals NHS Foundation Figures for 2012-13 will be published as part of their Trust; annual reports and accounts. The Dudley Group NHS Foundation Trust; Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust; Royal Sussex County Hospital Medway NHS Foundation Trust; and Burton Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for The review began in February 2013 and will publish a Health when he expects HM Treasury to approve the public report summarising the findings and actions redevelopment of the Royal Sussex County Hospital in resulting from the 14 investigations before the summer. Brighton. [153138] In March further concerns arose in relation to outcomes from surgery at Leeds General Infirmary’s child cardiac Dr Poulter: All major capital schemes are expected to unit specifically. In response to the potentially serious demonstrate robustly that they are affordable to their concerns that were identified surgery was temporarily trusts, and need to be approved by the Department of halted at Leeds until NHS England had been reassured Health and HM Treasury before the Government can that it was safe for surgery to continue. NHS England is grant its approval. continuing to work with Leeds General Infirmary to The Department has had recent discussions with HM ensure that it can deliver sustainable improvements in Treasury and the NHS Trust Development Authority outcomes for children undergoing heart surgery over (NHS TDA) about the business case for the redevelopment the long-term. of the Royal Sussex County Hospital and to identify Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 next steps in approval. The NHS TDA is currently leading the work with the Trust to provide new and refreshed financial information for HM Treasury to Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for Health support the business case. This information is expected what steps his Department has taken to implement the to be available in the coming weeks, however it is not Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012. [153191] possible at present to give an indication when an approval decision will be made. Dr Poulter: Cabinet Office circulated a Procurement Policy Note on 20 December 2012 with guidance on the requirements of the Public Services (Social Value Act), Transplant Surgery which came into force in January 2013. The Department has reviewed and updated its Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health procurement documentation and guidance in light of how many organ transplants have been received by the provisions of the Act. those deemed to be (a) addicted to and (b) abusing alcohol in (i) each of the last five years and (ii) 2013 to Redundancy Pay date. [152472]

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anna Soubry: This information is not held centrally. how many officials in (a) his Department and (b) each The information in the following table has been provided of the non-departmental public bodies for which he is by NHS Blood and Transplant. This table shows the responsible received payments under a voluntary exit number of liver transplants where the reason given for scheme in each of the last five years; and at what total transplantation is ‘alcoholic liver disease’. The table cost in each such year. [152651] also includes information where ‘alcoholic liver disease’ is the secondary and tertiary disease for liver transplantation, Dr Poulter: Since 2007-08, the Department has approved however in these cases the primary disease is recorded a number of voluntary exits. In 2007-08 and 2010-11, as Hepatitis C. The table also includes four cases where the Department ran voluntary exit schemes which explains patients have received a combined liver and kidney the rise in numbers and costs during those years. transplant as this is, on occasion, considered beneficial. 1011W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1012W

Table: Liver transplants (including four cases of liver/kidney) since 2008 in United Kingdom where cause of disease is recorded as ‘Alcoholic liver disease’ Number of rival claims Alcoholic liver 2012-13 86,283 disease 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 20131 2011-12 92,496

Primary 129 127 143 127 161 58 2010-11 61,565 disease 2009-10 147,616 Secondary 27 15 15 24 28 7 disease Tertiary 441481 Defence disease Total 160 146 159 155 197 66 Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Chancellor of the 1 Includes data as of 15 April 2013. Source: Exchequer whether it remains his policy to increase the NHS Blood and Transplant defence budget in real terms in 2015-16. [152382]

Danny Alexander: The Ministry of Defence budget TREASURY allocation for 2015-16 will be set as part of the Spending Round which is due to be published on 26 June 2013. Banks: Regulation

Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Dementia Exchequer what discussions his Department has held with the Financial Conduct Authority about the Oliver Colvile: To ask the Chancellor of the introduction of an independent code of conduct for Exchequer whether his Department has a dementia retail banking staff. [152900] strategy. [151835] Sajid Javid: Treasury officials have had contact on various occasions with FCA and PRA staff (and, before Sajid Javid: The Treasury does not currently have a 1 April 2013, with FSA staff) on possible measures to dementia policy. strengthen culture and standards in the banking sector. The Department is firmly committed to supporting The Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards the Dementia Challenge and Friend’s initiative launched has been established as a joint committee appointed by by the Prime Minster last year, and in this respect the both Houses and chaired by Andrew Tyrie MP. The Department encouraged employees to sign up to the Committee has a remit to consider and report on a ″Dementia Friend″ initiative after the launch. range of issues including professional standards and There is support also available for staff through a culture of the UK banking sector, and to make confidential Occupational Health service with an onsite recommendations for legislative and other action. The Occupational Health Adviser available to discuss any Government looks forward to the committee’s final medical conditions which could result in long term report. sickness absence. This service provides both help to Child Benefit identify, assess and prevent ill-health wherever possible and to provide assistance to any staff who are affected. Ian Austin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer There is also an Employee Assistance Programme which (1) what measures are in place to ensure that child provides information and counselling services particularly benefit is distributed fairly when two parents have if problems could result in absence relating to mental made competing applications for child benefit for the health. Wellbeing events where staff can take part in same child; [151514] health checks are also held from time to time. (2) what estimate he has made of the number of cases in which two parents have made competing Economic Situation applications for child benefit for the same child in each of the last three years. [151515] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Chancellor of the Sajid Javid: The law provides for child benefit to be Exchequer what measures his Department uses to (a) (b) paid to only one person. Where more than one person is quantify consumer and business confidence in responsible for a child and each satisfies the entitlement the UK. [152588] conditions, they should decide between themselves which of them shall be entitled and make an election to that Sajid Javid: HM Treasury reviews a wide range of effect. If they are unable to decide, it falls to a decision- data and surveys to inform its assessment of the economy. maker, acting on behalf of the Commissioners for In assessing developments in household consumption HMRC, to make a discretionary decision. There are no and consumer confidence, HM Treasury considers a hard and fast rules governing these decisions, as every range of indicators alongside official statistics. These case is different and many factors that have a bearing on include: the care arrangements need to be considered. In general, Bank of England Agents’ Summary of Business Conditions the claimant who bears the greater responsibility will be awarded the child benefit. The overriding position is to BRC-KPMG Retail Sales Monitor ensure that the child is the ultimate beneficiary. Confederation of British Industry (CBI) Distributive Trades The following table sets out the number of cases in Survey which two parents have made a rival claim for child GfK Consumer Confidence Index benefit for the same child in each of the last three years. Visa Expenditure Index 1013W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1014W

Similarly, in assessing conditions in the business sector, Sajid Javid: The Chancellor announced in the 2013 including business confidence, HM Treasury considers Budget that those with-profits annuitants who bought a range of indicators alongside official statistics. These their policy before September 1992, and are alive at the include: time of the announcement, will receive an ex-gratia Bank of England Agents’ Summary of Business Conditions payment of £5,000. A further £5,000 is available to British Chambers of Commerce Quarterly Economic Survey those in receipt of pension credit. Further detail on this measure can be found at CBI Monthly, Quarterly and SME Industrial Trends Surveys, Service Sector Survey and Financial Services Survey http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ budget2013_equitable_life.htm Construction Products Association State of Trade Survey Deloitte CFO Survey Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks EEF-BDO Manufacturing Outlook KPMG Annual Tax Competitiveness Survey Robert Flello: To ask the Chancellor of the Markit-CIPS Purchasing Manager Indices (PMI) for Exchequer what discussions (a) he and (b) Ministers manufacturing, services and construction. in his Department have had with the off-licence trade and trade bodies regarding evasion of alcohol duty by EDF Group retailers. [152711] Sajid Javid: Treasury Ministers and officials have Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer meetings and discussions with a wide variety of stakeholders what evaluation and due diligence has been carried out as part of policy development and delivery. As was the by his Department’s Commercial Secretary in respect case with previous administrations, it is not the of the ability of Electricité de France to capitalise the Government’s practice to provide details of all such construction of any new nuclear power plant in the UK meetings and discussions. while holding a £33 billion debt. [151501] Excise Duties: Tobacco Sajid Javid: The Department for Energy and Climate Change (DECC) leads negotiations on all projects under Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the the FID-enabling programme subject to the usual Exchequer what the lower, mid-point and upper arrangements for managing major projects. The estimates were of the tax revenue foregone as a result of Commercial Secretary supports DECC in these negotiations tobacco smuggling in each of the last five years; and as part of his role in coordinating Government activity when he expects to publish the estimate for financial on infrastructure. year 2011-12. [152315]

Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Chancellor of the Sajid Javid: Estimates of the losses in revenue associated Exchequer what involvement his Department has in the with illicit sales of tobacco products were published in strike price negotiations with EDF. [151858] “Measuring Tax Gaps 2012”. This contains lower, midpoint and upper estimates of the tobacco tax gap from 2006-07 Sajid Javid: The Department for Energy and Climate to 2010-11. Change (DECC) leads negotiations on all projects under http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/tax-gaps/mtg-2012.pdf the FID-enabling programme subject to the usual arrangements for managing major projects. The These estimates cannot be disaggregated by the type Commercial Secretary supports DECC in these negotiations of illicit activity, e.g. through smuggling, counterfeiting as part of his role in coordinating Government activity or other fraud. on infrastructure. Figures for 2011-12 are due to be released in the autumn of 2013. Electronic Government Exports

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Chancellor of the Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many emails Exchequer what assessment he has made of the [email protected] has received; and what comparative (a) cost and (b) performance of (i) action has been taken as a result. [152489] Swedish, (ii) Dutch, (iii) Polish, (iv) French and (v) British export agencies. [152577] Mr Gauke [holding answer 22 April 2013]: HMRC has received over 75,000 customer referrals to our Sajid Javid: The Treasury regularly monitors trends [email protected] e-mail address in the last 12 in the activity of a range of overseas export credit months. All referrals are investigated, and where necessary agencies using data on business volumes collected by measures are taken to actively shut down websites that the OECD and Berne Union. Comparisons of cost and are set up to abuse our brand and defraud our customers. performance are difficult because of the different institutional structures in each country and wider economic Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation differences. The Treasury also considers other sources of comparative information, such as that published by Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the British Exporters’ Association on the range of products if he will review the decision not to make compensation offered by export credit agencies around the world. payments to Equitable Life With Profits policyholders The Treasury has not recently compared the cost and who took out their policy prior to 1 September 1992. performance of UK Trade and Investment with similar [152147] bodies overseas that promote exports. 1015W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1016W

Gift Aid Inheritance Tax

Mr Chope: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Pamela Nash: To ask the Chancellor of the when he expects HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Exchequer (1) what estimate he has made of the cost of to complete registration of the application by Hope (a) reducing and (b) scrapping the seven-year rule Church, Ferndown for Gift Aid registration made on with regards to inheritance tax relief; [152407] 14 October 2012; and what the reasons were for the (2) if he will estimate the potential additional difference between the time taken and the information revenue that would be raised in inheritance tax by on the HMRC website that such a new registration removing relief for agricultural and business assets; should take about six weeks. [152890] [152685] (3) if he will estimate the potential additional Sajid Javid: I am unable to answer the question revenue that would be raised in inheritance tax by because HM Revenue & Customs is subject to a strict removing the transferable nil rate band; [152686] duty of confidentiality in relation to customer information. (4) how many estates were not taxed which were HM Revenue & Customs may not disclose customer notified for probate worth (a) £500,000, (b) £1 million information outside the Department without the permission and (c) £2 million in each of the last three years; of the customer, except where there is specific legislation [152687] permitting the disclosure. (5) how much revenue in inheritance tax was foregone from (a) taper relief, (b) quick succession Government Departments: Procurement relief and (c) double taxation relief in (i) the UK, (ii) England, (iii) Scotland, (iv) Wales and (v) Northern Toby Perkins: To ask the Chancellor of the Ireland in the last 12 months for which figures are Exchequer if he will consider bringing forward available; [152688] proposals to require Government contractors to pay (6) how much revenue for the public purse was raised their full tax liability in the UK. [151557] from inheritance tax in (a) each Government office region, (b) Wales, (c) Scotland and (d) Northern Mr Gauke: The Government confirmed in the Budget Ireland in each financial year since 2003; [152745] that from 1 April 2013 it will require potential Government suppliers to declare specified previous occasions of tax (7) how many estates which were not taxed were non-compliance as part of the procurement process. notified for probate worth (a) £1,000,000, (b) £2,000,000 and (c) £500,000 in (i) Scotland, (ii) Income Tax England, (iii) the UK, (iv) Wales and (v) Northern Ireland in each of the last three years; [153039] Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (8) how much was paid in inheritance tax relief for what estimate he has made of the number of holdings in (a) unincorporated partnerships, (b) households containing one or more children in (a) the owner-occupier farmland, (c) shares in qualifying UK, (b) each nation and region of the UK and (c) unquoted companies and (d) bequest of landlord each parliamentary constituency in the UK will have interests in let farmland in (i) Wales, (ii) Scotland, (iii) two adults each earning (i) more and (ii) less than the England, (iv) Northern Ireland and (v) the UK in each threshold for income tax in each of the next four of the last 30 years; [152879] financial years. [149461] (9) what estimate he has made of how much additional income would be raised in inheritance tax if Sajid Javid: The following table gives the estimated the zero rate threshold were to be abolished; [153087] number of households containing one or more children, (10) how much was paid in inheritance tax relief at by the composition of adults earning above and below the rate of (a) 0 per cent, (b) 20 per cent, (c) 40 per the income tax personal allowance. Figures include cent, (d) 60 per cent and (e) 80 per cent for (i) Wales, households where one or more adults are not in work, (ii) Scotland, (iii) England, (iv) Northern Ireland and but are limited to only those households with two (v) the UK in each year for which records are available; adults and at least one child. Figures are not available [153100] for (a) geographical breakdowns smaller than the UK; (11) how much was paid in inheritance tax relief for and (b) 2015-16 and 2016-17. holdings in (a) unincorporated partnerships, (b) owner-occupier farmland, (c) shares in qualifying 2013-14 (Personal 2014-15 (Personal unquoted companies and (d) bequest of landlord allowance = allowance £9,440) =.£10,000) interests in let farmland for (i) Wales, (ii) Scotland, (iii) England, (iv) Northern Ireland and (v) the UK in each No adults earning above 620,000 637,000 year for which records are available; [153101] the personal allowance (12) what estimate he has made of the cost of (a) One adult earning above 2,162,000 2,198,000 the personal allowance reducing and (b) scrapping the seven-year rule in Two adults earning above 2,377,000 2,324,000 relation to inheritance tax relief. [153117] the personal allowance All 5,159,000 5,159,000 Mr Gauke: The information is as follows: Note: PQ 152407 and PQ 153117 Figures are rounded to the nearest 1,000; totals may not sum due to rounding. The total population (5.2 million) represents the number of An estimate of the cost of reducing or scrapping the households with two adults (who may constitute multiple tax units) seven year rule with regards to inheritance tax relief is and at least one child. not available. 1017W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1018W

PQ 152685 Financial Northern The estimated cost of relief for agricultural and year England Wales Scotland Ireland UK business property is published at: 2010-11 890 80 95 75 1,140 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/expenditures/table1-5.pdf 2011-12 763 81 72 52 968 PQ 152686 2012-13 540 67 83 46 736 An estimate of the cost of the nil rate band for 2013 to 17 6 2 0 25 chargeable transfers not exceeding the threshold is not date available. The number of estates above the IHT threshold using the nil rate band and the amount of relief claimed Mortgages: First Time Buyers by them is published in table 12.2 of the National Statistics, available at: Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/inheritance/table12-2.pdf Exchequer what steps he is taking to make low-deposit PQ 152687 and PQ 153039 mortgages available to first-time buyers. [152516] The number of estates in the UK which were notified for probate but which were not taxed worth £500,000 to Sajid Javid: The Government is committed to making £1 million, £1 million to £2 million and over £2 million the aspiration of home ownership a reality for as many is published in National Statistics Table 12.3 available households as possible. from the HMRC website at The Government has acted to help those wishing to http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/inheritance/table12-3.pdf own their own home by introducing Help to Buy, which The information for Scotland, England, Wales and was announced at Budget 2013. Northern Ireland is not available. Help to Buy is a major new package of measures PQ 152688 and PQ 153100 designed to increase the supply of low-deposit mortgages The revenue forgone from taper relief, quick succession for credit-worthy households, increase the supply of relief and double taxation relief are published in statistics new housing and contribute to economic growth. table B1 available from the HMRC website at There are two key elements to Help to Buy, the equity http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/expenditures/table-b1.pdf loan scheme which is already in place and began on The information for Scotland, England, Wales and 1 April 2013; and the mortgage guarantee scheme, Northern Ireland is not available. The information for which will start in January 2014. taper relief split into relief at (a) 0%, (b) 20%, (c) 40%, (d) 60% and (e) 80% is not available. Mortgages: Government Assistance PQ 152745 I refer the hon. Member to my reply to her question Pamela Nash: To ask the Chancellor of the of 18 April 2013, Official Report, column 520W. Exchequer whether the equity loans scheme announced in Budget 2013 will be available to people living in PQ 152879 and PQ 153101 Scotland; and whether a person living in (a) England I refer the hon. Member to my reply to her question seeking to use the scheme for a property in Scotland of 22 April 2013, Official Report, column 672W. and (b) Scotland seeking to use the scheme for a PQ 153087 property in England can apply to use the scheme. The estimated cost of the IHT threshold is published [153095] in statistics table 1.5 available from the HMRC website at: Sajid Javid: Scotland will receive Barnett Consequentials http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/expenditures/table1-5.pdf of the Government’s Help to Buy: equity loan scheme, which they can use to implement the same or similar Minimum Wage scheme if they so wish. Help to Buy: equity loan is available in England and Pamela Nash: To ask the Chancellor of the is available to all UK residents providing the property is Exchequer how many employers in (a) Scotland, (b) the buyers’ only residence. England, (c) the UK, (d) Wales, (e) Northern Ireland and (g) each Scottish local authority area received a National Insurance Contributions warning for non-payment of the minimum wage in each year since 2007 and in 2013 to date. [153113] Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Gauke: HMRC does not record the outcome of Exchequer What estimate he has made of the number its minimum wage investigations by reference to local of (a) co-operatives and (b) social enterprises in (i) the authority areas. UK and (ii) Scotland which will benefit from the The total number of non-compliant employers identified, employment allowance. [151955] for the period requested, is in the following table: Mr Gauke: Estimates are not available in the detail Financial Northern requested. However, co-operatives and social enterprises year England Wales Scotland Ireland UK which trade will be eligible for the employment allowance

2007-08 1,195 147 174 134 1,650 as well as any other businesses which trade. Overall, it is 2008-09 1,251 168 175 148 1,742 estimated that up to 1.25 million employers in the UK 2009-10 885 130 145 96 1,256 and 98,000 in Scotland could potentially benefit from the allowance in 2014-15. 1019W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1020W

PAYE Revenue and Customs: Fraud

Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Stephen Barclay: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his most recent estimate is of the cost Exchequer what assessment he has made of the benefit of implementing PAYE Real Time Information. in (a) monetary and (b) other terms from the HM [150224] Revenue and Customs’ counter-fraud activities in each of the last five years. [153141] Mr Gauke: The latest version of the full business case Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) for PAYE Real Time Information shows a cost of publishes performance data showing the additional revenues £273.84 million for the spending review period to March it raises from compliance activity within its annual 2015. report and accounts. The following table shows the RTI is the most significant change to PAYE for additional revenues raised by the Department in each 70 years, and it is going well. By 22 April over 625,000 year from 2007-08. schemes were being reported in real time. The business case for RTI is very strong and pays back by the end of £ billion 2014-15, including savings of £500 million for customers and HMRC by that point. 2007-08 11.2 2008-09 12 Public Expenditure 2009-10 12.6 2010-11 13.9 2011-12 16.7 Nadine Dorries: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps his Department is taking to In addition HMRC publishes various progress reports communicate accurate and accessible information to on the further benefits that its compliance activity the public about the size of (a) Government spending delivers. My hon. Friend can find useful information in reductions, (b) the deficit and (c) the national debt. the following publications: [152590] The HMRC annual report, the most recent iteration of which can be found here: Sajid Javid: The Government is committed to ensuring https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-report- that the public are made aware of the state of the public and-resource-accounts-2011-12 finances and its fiscal policy decisions. It publishes this The 2012-13 report will be. published in due course. information through a number of different channels. One of which is the published documents, including Measuring tax gaps: Budgets and autumn statements, available on the Treasury http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/tax-gaps.htm website at: Levelling the playing field: the most recent update of http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk HMRC Compliance performance: The latest information about the size of (a) Government www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2013/level-tax-playing-field.pdf spending reduction, (b) the deficit and (c) the national Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services debt can be found in the Budget 2013 document available on the Treasury website at: Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/budget2013.htm Exchequer what recent representations he has received on the premium rates charged for helplines operated by The Treasury also produces infographics to explain HM Revenue and Customs; what the reasons are for some of the key statistics and measures contained in the charging premium rates; on what grounds Budget document available on the Treasury website at: reimbursement of such charges can be requested; and if http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/budget2013_infographics.htm he will make a statement on the appropriateness of charging premium rates for public service helplines. Revenue and Customs [152744] Mr Gauke: HMRC does not operate any “premium Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer rate” helplines. All 0845 call charges are based on the how many days were lost to staff sickness at HM tariff arrangements individual customers have with their Revenue and Customs in each of the last five years; service provider. For many customers, the cost of dialling and what estimate he has made of the cost of such a 0845 number will be very low or free; for those using a absences in each such year. [151120] pay as you go mobile, the cost can be as high as 31.75p per minute. Mr Gauke: The information is as follows: When HMRC set up 0845 numbers they were a cost Number of days lost to sickness absence and estimated cost effective way of improving the telephone service provided Days lost Est. cost (£) to customers. Since then the telecoms market has changed, 2008-09 976,257 107,777,038 and the tariff arrangements of individual customers 2009-10 906,567 101,149,720 mean that some are now disproportionately disadvantaged 2010-11 760,438 88,583,070 by the use of 0845 numbers. Between April and September this year HMRC will migrate 0845 numbers to 03XX, a 2011-12 579,197 64,395,741 move which HMRC estimate will save their customers 2012-13 532,736 63,059,451 about £13 million per year. Note: Costs are calculated using average salary, including Employers National HMRC does not reimburse customers for the cost of Insurance Contribution and superannuation. their telephone calls. 1021W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1022W

Royal Household from the Exchequer in each of the last five years. [151975] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much the Royal Household received Sajid Javid: The following is the information requested:

2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14

Civil list and other grants 28 29 30 Sovereign grant — — — 31 36.1 RH spend (real) Including Civil List Reserve 33.9 32.1 32.3 — —

The Royal Trustees Sovereign Grant Report of 2013-14 Tax Allowances: State Second Pension explains that the formula used for the Sovereign Grant Act is 15% of the Crown Estate’s net revenue. The Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) Royal Trustees approved £36.1 million for the current if he will estimate the cost to the Exchequer of year in accordance with the Sovereign Grant Act of 2011. providing continuing tax relief in (a) 2013-14, (b) 2014-15, (c) 2015-16 and (d) 2016-17 for State Retirement Pensions: Carers contributions made into second pension schemes of those who had already received between (i) £1 million- Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer £1.2 million, (ii) £1.2 million-£1.4 million, (iii) if he will introduce a carer’s supplement to the basic £1.4 million-£1.6 million, (iv) £1.6 million-£1.8 million, state pension. [152404] (v) £1.8 million-£2 million and (vi) over £2 million of such relief in their lifetimes; [151384] Sajid Javid: The Government recognises that unpaid (2) what the cost was in 2012-13 of providing carers provide invaluable support to people in some of continuing tax relief for contributions made into the most vulnerable circumstances in society, and as second pension schemes of those who had already such we have announced that carer’s allowance will received between (a) £1 million-£1.2 million, (b) continue to exist as a separate benefit. While we continually £1.2 million-£1.4 million, (c) £1.4 million-£1.6 million, keep benefits under review, there are no plans to introduce (d) £1.6 million-£1.8 million, (e) £1.8 million- a carer’s supplement to the basic state pension. £2 million and (f) over £2 million of such relief; Carers on low incomes can claim income-related [151385] benefits, such as pension credit. This benefit can be paid (3) how many people have received total tax relief on to carers at a higher rate through the additional amount their contributions into second pension schemes of for carers, which is currently worth up to £33.30 a week. between (a) £1 million-£1.2 million, (b) £1.2 million- State Retirement Pensions: Uprating £1.4 million, (c) £1.4 million-£1.6 million, (d) £1.6 million-£1.8 million, (e) £1.8 million-£2 million Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the and (f) over £2 million to date; [151387] Exchequer if his Department will revert to using the (4) if he will make an estimate of how many persons retail price index when setting pension increase rates. will continue to receive tax relief on their contributions [152517] into second pension schemes having already been recipients of such relief over their lifetimes at levels of Sajid Javid: The Government has no plans to revert between (a) £1 million and £1.2 million, (b) to using the Retail Price Index (RPI) for uprating the £1.2 million and £1.4 million, (c) £1.4 million and state pension. £1.6 million, (d) £1.6 million and £1.8 million, (e) The Government introduced the triple lock for uprating £1.8 million and £2 million and (f) over £2 million in the basic state pension, which means that it is increased the fiscal years (i) 2013-14, (ii) 2014-15, (iii) 2015-16 each year by the highest of the growth in average and (iv) 2016-17; [151652] earnings, price increases as measured by the Consumer Price Index (CPI) or 2.5%. Sajid Javid: Records are not held that enable the history of contributions made towards separate private The triple lock means that in April 2013 a full basic pension schemes to be estimated over an individual’s state pension increased by £2.70 a week to £110.15 a lifetime, or for the cumulative amount of tax relief week. As a result the basic state pension will represent a thereon to be estimated. I therefore regret that the higher share of average earnings than at any time since information requested with regard to relief on contributions 1992. is not available in respect of individuals with pension Tax Allowances: Married People entitlements to a second private pension scheme in addition to their principal private scheme. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the Taxation: Electronic Cigarettes Exchequer what steps he is taking to recognise marriage through the tax system. [151845] John Woodcock: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his policy is on taxation on Mr Gauke [holding answer 18 April 2013]: I refer the e-cigarettes; what representations he has received on hon. Member to the answer that I gave to my hon. their classification for taxation purposes; and if he will Friend the Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) on make a statement on the future taxation of such 30 November 2012, Official Report, column 536W. products. [152267] 1023W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1024W

Sajid Javid: E-cigarettes do not contain tobacco, and (3) how many officials in (a) his Department and are therefore not liable to tobacco products duty; however, (b) the non-departmental public bodies for which he is they are liable to VAT. The Government keeps all taxes responsible claimed reimbursements for working under review, and decisions on taxation are a matter for lunches and official entertainment in each of the last the Chancellor as part of the Budget. five years; and what the total cost was in each such Treasury Ministers and officials receive and consider year. [152677] a wide variety of representations from organisations in the public and private sectors, as part of the process of Sajid Javid: The cost of complying with your requests policy development and delivery. would exceed the disproportionate cost threshold, in locating retrieving and extracting the information. Taxation: Environment Protection However there are publications already available which provide some of the information within these requests Mr Yeo: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and they can be found on HM Treasury website within what assessment he has made of the effect of the the following link: Carbon Price Floor on the competitiveness of UK http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ business. [152902] about_departmental_index.htm

Sajid Javid: The carbon price floor establishes a Visits Abroad minimum carbon price, which sends an early and credible signal to drive investment in low-carbon electricity Mr Redwood: To ask the Chancellor of the generation and support the UK’s long-term energy Exchequer what his Department’s budget was for security. overseas travel for officials and Ministers in 2012-13. For most businesses, direct energy costs are a relatively [151366] small proportion of total costs. In 2011, purchases of energy and water accounted for less than 3% of total Sajid Javid: The Department does not have a budget costs for UK manufacturing. In 2013 the carbon price specifically for overseas travel. However the Department floor will add around 2% to the average business electricity does have a travel and subsistence budget which includes bill. However over the longer term, consumers stand to all travel and associated costs. benefit from cleaner, cheaper and more reliable sources Following are the budgeted figures for travel and of low-carbon energy as a result of the Government’s subsistence over the past four years. policies. The Government recognises the cumulative impact of £ energy and climate change polices on the most energy intensive industries. Autumn statement 2011 announced 2012-13 1,476,145 a package of measures, worth £250 million over the 2011-12 1,846,570 spending review, to help these businesses adjust to the 2010-11 2,102,984 low-carbon transformation while remaining competitive. 2009-10 4,579,066 The Budget announced that energy-intensive industries will continue to receive support in 2015-16. Welfare Tax Credits: Wales Energy-intensives will also benefit from relief from the costs of electricity market reform, subject to state Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer aid; an exemption from the climate change levy (CCL) how many people in (a) Ynys Mon, (b) Gwynedd, (c) for metallurgical and mineralogical processes; and an Conwy, (d) Denbighshire, (e) Flintshire and (f) increase in CCL relief to 90% on electricity for most Wrexham local authority areas are claiming (i) working energy-intensive businesses who are part of Climate family tax credit and childcare tax credit change in Change Agreements UK businesses will also benefit circumstance income disregards, (ii) childcare tax credit from a further reduction in corporation tax to 20% by first income threshold, (iii) childcare tax credit second 2015 and the introduction of a £2,000 per year employment income threshold, (iv) childcare tax credit baby allowance for businesses and charities from April 2014 element, (v) working family tax credit 30 hour element, to reduce their employment and NICs bill. (vi) working family tax credit basic element, (vii) working family tax credit single parent and couple Travel element, (viii) working family tax credit 50-plus element and (ix) working family tax credit minimum Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer hours for couples. [150607] (1) how many officials in his (a) Department and (b) its non-departmental public bodies travelled on (i) Sajid Javid: Working family tax credit was abolished domestic and (ii) international flights in each of the in March 2003 and replaced by the current child and last five years; in which class categories; at what total working tax credit system. cost; and what the monetary value was of the 20 (i) Final tax credit entitlement for a given year is highest airfare charges in each such year; [152543] based on income in that year if that is: more than (2) how many officials in his (a) Department and £2,500 lower than the income in the previous year; or (b) its non-departmental public bodies stayed in hotels exceeds it by more than £5,000. A year on year income in (i) the UK and (ii) every other country during the fall of less than £2,500; or increase of less than £5,000 is last five years; at what total cost; and what the disregarded in calculating the current years’ final tax monetary value was of the 20 highest such hotel credit entitlement, and the previous years’ income is expenses in each such year; [152567] used. 1025W Written Answers24 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 1026W

(ii-iii) The tax credit income thresholds cannot be Number of families benefitting from certain elements of WTC claimed, they represent the point at which a families Thousands award begins to be tapered away. There are two income (vii) WTC lone (vi) WTC Basic parent or couple (v) WTC 30 thresholds in tax credits. element element1 hour element Any family eligible for any element of working tax Sir y Fflint 8.1 7.0 6.1 credit (WTC) can receive their full entitlement until Flintshire their annual household income reaches £6,420 p.a. After Wrecsam 7.6 6.7 5.6 this point, their tax credit entitlement is tapered away at Wrexham a rate of 41 pence for each additional £1 of income 1 The numbers in this column include people who receive either the lone beyond the threshold. parent, or the couple’s element. Any family eligible for child tax credit (CTC) only, (iv, viii) The baby element of child tax credit, and the can receive their, full entitlement until their annual 50+ return to work element of working tax credit were household income reaches £15,910 p.a. After this point, abolished in April 2011 and April 2012 respectively; their tax credit entitlement is tapered away at a rate of therefore there are no current recipients. These changes 41 pence for each additional £1 of income beyond the were part of a package of measures reaffirming the threshold. government’s commitment to making work pay. Since 2010, the government has announced successive increases (v-vii) The table below shows the number of families in the personal allowance totalling £3,525, representing in the requested regions benefitting from the WTC a rise of more than 50% in just four years. These basic element, WTC lone parent or couple element, and changes will benefit 25.4 million individuals and provide the WTC 30 hour element. These figures are based on a real terms gain of £507 to most basic rate taxpayers in HMRC’s Tax Credits National Statistics publication 2013-14. Around 2.7 million individuals will be taken for December 2012. Further statistics and information out of income tax all together by April 2014. can be found here: (ix) The hour’s rules for couples claiming working tax http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/personal-tax-credits.htm#1 credit changed in April 2012. A couple that is responsible Number of families benefitting from certain elements of WTC for a child or young person must work at least 24 hours Thousands between them, and one adult must be working at least (vii) WTC lone 16 hours. If the couple is not responsible for a child one (vi) WTC Basic parent or couple (v) WTC 30 1 adult must be over 25 years old and working at least element element hour element 30 hours a week. Ynys Mon Isle 3.9 3.4 2.9 Recent figures have shown that nearly three quarters of Anglesey of families affected by the April 2012 change to the Gwynedd 7.1 6.0 5.4 Gwynedd WTC hours rule have since reported an increase in Conwy Conwy 6.8 5.8 4.9 hours worked. This data is evidence that difficult welfare Sir Ddinbych 5.6 4.9 4.1 reform can combine savings for the taxpayer with better Denbighshire incentives for people who want to work.

5MC Ministerial Corrections24 APRIL 2013 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

With effect from 1 August 2011, my Department Ministerial Correction abolished Annual Performance and Special Performance Bonus schemes, replacing them with a new Exceptional Wednesday 24 April 2013 Performance scheme. This scheme applies to all staff below the senior civil service and under it individuals or teams can be recognised for exceptional performance or achievements through awards of up to £600. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT This Government have limited senior civil service bonuses to the top 25% of performers. My Department Pay has exercised further restraint by limiting the value of bonus payments to 90% of the civil service-wide maxima. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for The correct answer should have been: Communities and Local Government how much was paid in (a) year end and (b) in-year bonuses to officials Brandon Lewis: The information is as follows, including comparative figures for 2009-10: in his Department in each of the last two years. [132861] [Official Report, 18 December 2012, Vol. 555, c. 695W.] £ Letter of correction from Brandon Lewis: Performance year Year end In year Total An error has been identified in the written answer 2009-10 859,320 181,824 1,041,144 given to the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish 2010-11 591,300 113,830 705,130 (Andrew Gwynne) on 18 December 2012. 2011-12 247,750 296,500 544,250 The full answer given was as follows: With effect from 1 August 2011, my Department abolished Annual Performance and Special Performance Brandon Lewis: The information is as follows, including Bonus schemes, replacing them with a new Exceptional comparative figures for 2009-10: Performance scheme. This scheme applies to all staff below the senior civil service and under it individuals or £ teams can be recognised for exceptional performance or Performance year Year end In year Total achievements through awards of up to £600. 2009-10 832,491 181,426 1,013,917 This Government have limited senior civil service 2010-11 580,050 113,830 £693,880 bonuses to the top 25% of performers. My Department 2011-12 247,750 296,500 544,250 has exercised further restraint by limiting the value of bonus payments to 90% of the civil service-wide maxima.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 24 April 2013

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 876 SCOTLAND OFFICE—continued Engagements...... 876 Corby...... 875 David Livingstone: Anniversary ...... 867 SCOTLAND OFFICE ...... 867 Ryder Cup...... 869 Budget 2013 ...... 871 Scotland Referendum...... 874 Caledonian Sleeper Train...... 868 Welfare Reform...... 870 Common Agricultural Policy ...... 875 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 24 April 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 53WS HEALTH...... 56WS Consumer Alternative Dispute Resolution...... 53WS Regulation of Cosmetic Interventions...... 56WS

EDUCATION...... 54WS TREASURY ...... 53WS Children and Families Bill Committee (Ministerial Cash Ratio Deposit Scheme...... 53WS Clarification)...... 54WS UK Guarantee Scheme ...... 53WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 55WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 56WS Afghanistan Progress Report (March 2013) ...... 55WS Social Justice: Transforming Lives ...... 56WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 24 April 2013

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 5P TREASURY ...... 6P Local Authority Funding (Derby)...... 5P VAT on toasted sandwiches...... 6P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 24 April 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 926W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Crown Prosecution Service: Training ...... 926W continued Staff ...... 926W Fire Services...... 983W High Street Review...... 983W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 994W Homelessness...... 984W Business: ICT...... 994W Housing ...... 986W Exports: Government Assistance ...... 995W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 987W GCE AS-level ...... 996W Housing: Carbon Emissions...... 987W Staff ...... 996W Immigration...... 988W Local Government Finance ...... 988W CABINET OFFICE...... 977W Local Government: ICT...... 989W 10 Downing Street ...... 977W Lost Property...... 989W Conditions of Employment...... 977W Mortgages...... 989W Electronic Government ...... 978W Non-Domestic Rates: Shops ...... 990W Government Procurement Card ...... 978W Pay...... 991W Pay...... 979W Planning Obligations...... 991W Suicide ...... 979W Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012...... 992W Termination of Employment...... 980W Sick Leave ...... 993W Travel ...... 980W Social Rented Housing...... 993W

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 994W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 909W Archbishop of Canterbury...... 994W Broadband ...... 909W Broadband: Enterprise Zones ...... 910W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 982W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 910W Consultants...... 982W Museums and Galleries...... 910W Correspondence ...... 982W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 911W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Pay...... 911W Wind Power: Seas and Oceans ...... 977W Royal Charters: Regulation...... 912W World War I: Anniversaries...... 912W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 912W DEFENCE...... 902W Agricultural Wages Board...... 912W Armed Forces: Vehicles...... 902W Animal Welfare: Crime ...... 913W Cyprus ...... 902W Animals: Sales...... 913W Defence: Procurement...... 903W Bees: Pesticides...... 913W Defence Support Group...... 902W Dogs ...... 915W HMS Ambush...... 904W Livestock: Exports ...... 915W RAF Cranwell ...... 904W Livestock Industry ...... 915W Royal Naval College...... 904W Storage...... 904W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 931W Submarines ...... 905W Arms Trade: Treaties...... 931W Trident Submarines...... 905W Bahrain ...... 932W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 905W Chad: Niger ...... 932W USA...... 906W Guinea-Bissau...... 932W Human Rights ...... 932W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 925W Iran...... 933W Scotland...... 925W Iraq...... 933W Israel...... 933W EDUCATION...... 942W Jordan...... 934W 16-19 Bursary Fund ...... 942W Mongolia ...... 934W Academies: Finance ...... 942W North Korea ...... 934W Academies: Pay...... 945W Official Hospitality ...... 935W Children: Day Care ...... 947W Palestinians ...... 936W Children in Care...... 945W Pay...... 937W Children: Internet ...... 948W Policy Programme Evaluation Board ...... 937W Children: Poverty ...... 948W Redundancy Pay ...... 937W Children’s Centres ...... 948W Sexual Offences...... 938W Cwmcarn School...... 951W Somalia...... 939W Dementia ...... 952W Syria...... 940W Educational Institutions: Inspections...... 952W Zambia ...... 941W Free Schools...... 953W Free Schools: Pay...... 953W HEALTH...... 996W GCE AS-level ...... 953W 22q Deletion Syndrome...... 996W GCSE ...... 954W Air Travel...... 997W Languages: Primary Education...... 955W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 998W Orphans: Education...... 955W Anorexia ...... 998W Pay...... 956W Dementia ...... 1000W Physical Education...... 957W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 1000W Primary Education: Class Sizes...... 957W Drugs: Side Effects...... 1001W Primary Education: Teachers ...... 958W Hotels ...... 1002W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 958W Liver Diseases ...... 1004W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 958W Malnutrition ...... 1003W Schools: Co-operation...... 959W NHS: Fraud...... 1005W Schools: Finance...... 959W NHS: Labour Turnover...... 1006W Schools: Inspections...... 961W Official Hospitality ...... 1007W Schools: Pendle ...... 962W Operating Costs ...... 1007W Schools: Sports ...... 961W Ovarian Cancer...... 1007W Schools: Standards...... 962W Pain...... 1008W Schools: Transport ...... 963W Patients: Death...... 1008W Sixth Form Education...... 964W Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012...... 1009W Teachers...... 965W Redundancy Pay ...... 1009W Teachers: Industrial Disputes...... 966W Royal Sussex County Hospital ...... 1010W Teachers: Qualifications...... 966W Transplant Surgery...... 1010W Teachers: Recruitment ...... 969W Teachers: Training...... 969W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 921W Teachers: Veterans ...... 971W Animal Experiments ...... 921W Vetting ...... 972W Assaults on Police ...... 922W Visits Abroad ...... 972W Asylum: Repatriation...... 922W Vocational Guidance...... 972W Baroness Thatcher ...... 922W Borders: Personal Records ...... 923W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 973W Daniel Morgan ...... 923W Energy Companies Obligation ...... 973W Deportation: EU Nationals...... 923W Hotels ...... 973W Electronic Surveillance...... 924W North Sea Oil...... 974W Emergency Services...... 924W Redundancy Pay ...... 974W Entry Clearances: Iran ...... 924W Scotland...... 975W Members: Correspondence ...... 925W Wind Power ...... 975W Metropolitan Police ...... 925W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued TREASURY—continued Police: Libya ...... 925W Income Tax ...... 1015W Inheritance Tax...... 1016W JUSTICE...... 927W Minimum Wage ...... 1017W Claims Management Services...... 927W Mortgages: First Time Buyers...... 1018W Coroners ...... 928W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 1018W Criminal Proceedings ...... 928W National Insurance Contributions ...... 1018W Disclosure of Information ...... 929W PAYE...... 1019W Gender Recognition...... 929W Public Expenditure...... 1019W Northern Ireland...... 930W Revenue and Customs...... 1019W Personal Injury: Compensation...... 930W Revenue and Customs: Fraud ...... 1020W Staff ...... 930W Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services ...... 1020W Royal Household ...... 1021W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 917W State Retirement Pensions: Carers...... 1021W Scotland...... 917W State Retirement Pensions: Uprating...... 1021W Tax Allowances: Married People...... 1021W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 917W Tax Allowances: State Second Pension...... 1022W Banks...... 917W Taxation: Electronic Cigarettes ...... 1022W Redundancy Pay ...... 918W Taxation: Environment Protection ...... 1023W Travel ...... 1023W PRIME MINISTER ...... 994W Visits Abroad ...... 1024W Travel ...... 994W Welfare Tax Credits: Wales ...... 1024W

SCOTLAND...... 918W WALES...... 906W Budget 2013 ...... 918W Electricity...... 906W Jobseekers ...... 918W Hotels ...... 906W Liver Diseases ...... 907W TRANSPORT ...... 901W National Assembly for Wales ...... 908W Fuel Cells: Hydrogen ...... 901W Official Hospitality ...... 908W West Coast Railway Line ...... 901W Procurement...... 908W Public Sector: Redundancy ...... 908W TREASURY ...... 1011W Redundancy Pay ...... 909W Banks: Regulation...... 1011W Treasury...... 909W Child Benefit...... 1011W Defence...... 1012W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 916W Dementia ...... 1012W Business: Females ...... 916W Economic Situation...... 1012W Castes ...... 916W EDF Group ...... 1013W Multiple Births: Maternity Pay ...... 917W Electronic Government ...... 1013W Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation .. 1013W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 919W Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks...... 1014W Disability: Equality ...... 919W Excise Duties: Tobacco ...... 1014W Homelessness...... 919W Exports ...... 1014W Human Papillomavirus ...... 920W Gift Aid ...... 1015W Universal Credit...... 920W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 1015W Work Programme...... 921W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 24 April 2013

Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .5MC Pay...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 1 May 2013

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PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 561 Wednesday No. 145 24 April 2013

CONTENTS

Wednesday 24 April 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 867] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Abu Qatada [Col. 887] Statement—(Mrs May)

Planning Permission (Financial Penalties) [Col. 902] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Jeremy Lefroy)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Public Service Pensions Bill [Col. 905] Lords messages considered

Defamation Bill [Col. 913] Lords message considered

Opposition Day [Unallotted half day] Agricultural Wages Board [Col. 924] Motion—(Mary Creagh)—on a Division, negatived

Petitions [Col. 976]

Girls and ICT Careers [Col. 978] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Shaker Aamer [Col. 301WH] Food Waste [Col. 327WH] Childhood Obesity and Diabetes [Col. 334WH] William McGreanery [Col. 358WH] BBC Trust [Col. 365WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 53WS]

Petitions [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 901W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]