Committee for Infrastructure

OFFICIAL REPORT (Hansard)

Departmental Priorities and the Term Ahead: Mr Chris Hazzard MLA (Minister for Infrastructure) and DFI Officials

28 September 2016 NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

Committee for Infrastructure

Departmental Priorities and the Term Ahead: Mr Chris Hazzard MLA (Minister for Infrastructure) and DFI Officials

28 September 2016

Members present for all or part of the proceedings: Mr William Humphrey (Chairperson) Mr George Robinson (Deputy Chairperson) Ms Kellie Armstrong Mr Alex Easton Mr Paul Girvan Mr Declan McAleer Mr Fra McCann Mr Eamonn McCann Mr Daniel McCrossan Mrs Jenny Palmer

Witnesses: Mr Hazzard Minister for Infrastructure

Mr Peter May Department for Infrastructure Mr John McGrath Department for Infrastructure Dr Andrew Murray Department for Infrastructure

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): The Minister is joined by Mr Peter May, the permanent secretary, Mr John McGrath, the deputy secretary, and Dr Andrew Murray, the deputy secretary for roads and rivers. Good morning, gentlemen. I hand over to you for your presentation, and then, if you are content, we will take questions.

Mr Hazzard (The Minister for Infrastructure): Thanks very much, Chair, for the opportunity to speak with you. Good morning to everybody. The last time I was here, I was just through the door, like many in here; it was early days. It is nice to be back after the first 100 days in post to talk about some of the things the Department has been able to do and some of our priorities going forward. I have some prepared words to go through, and then we will open up to questions, if that is OK.

I am sure that the Committee is aware that I have been very clear that my top priority is redressing the infrastructure deficit, particularly in the west. Projects like the A5 and A6 are critical to addressing that historical imbalance. I was delighted to announce recently the £160 million investment in the Randalstown to Castledawson phase of the A6, making a difference for 18,000 commuters every day. Advance work has begun, and I will monitor the progress of the project very closely in the time ahead.

Improving connections across the region for people, goods and services is a key enabler of a regionally balanced economy. That is consistent with the direction set by the draft Programme for

1 Government, which, as you know, is focused on outcomes. That approach indicates our strong commitment to working together for a prosperous, more equal society in which our citizens can flourish. It is commonly recognised that infrastructure is absolutely critical to that ambition. As reflected in the outcome, we connect people and opportunities through our infrastructure. Infrastructure also features as a key enabler of many of the outcomes, particularly those related to the economy, the environment, health and well-being.

While my Department will have a contribution to make across the whole Programme for Government, we currently have two lead areas: improving transport connections and increasing the use of public transport and active travel. I am keen to ensure that we also have a focus on our water infrastructure in some form in the Programme for Government. Work continues on the delivery plans. Those documents will set out the actions that will make most difference. Road schemes, of course, are only part of the answer; investing in public transport and active travel is also critical. Choosing public transport for longer journeys or walking or cycling for shorter journeys brings social, economic and environmental benefits.

I turn now to public transport. I announced a £45 million investment in a modern ticketing system earlier this month, and I am pleased with the progress that is being made on Belfast rapid transit and the work to take forward the Derry transport hub. Phase 2 of the Coleraine to Derry railway track renewal project will be completed by the end of the year. In conjunction with this, I am keen to see improved promotion of the rail link between Dublin and Derry.

I have previously set out my strong commitment to the Narrow Water bridge project, and I am delighted that, through the Fresh Start Agreement, both Governments on the island have confirmed that they remain supportive of the concept. It is an exciting project, and I am determined to do everything that I can to take it forward as a priority, but, if we are to realise the maximum benefit for local people and businesses, the project needs to be progressed as part of an integrated programme to unlock the significant economic potential of the area, particularly through tourism. Following the North/South Ministerial Council meeting in Dublin on 4 July, officials from my Department and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in the South have continued to explore options and will meet key stakeholders in Newry next week to look at how the project can best be advanced.

The greenway strategy, which members were briefed on recently, and the cycling strategy will set out my plans for how my Department will work with others to enable more people to get out there and get cycling safely and with confidence. That strategy sets the direction of travel, and a critical aspect of the work will be to grow the greenway network during this mandate.

You will be aware that NI Water has just published its annual report for 2015-16. It is a very positive report and highlights a number of successes, reflecting the substantial investment in water and sewerage infrastructure to date. NI Water has achieved a record-breaking overall performance score, reflecting the highest ever levels of customer service. It exceeded targets for drinking water, and waste water quality is higher than ever. Pollution incidents continue to be at a near-record low level, contributing to some of the best bathing water in Europe. NI Water has managed to deliver those impressive levels of service improvement while continuing to reduce day-to-day running costs by £5·4 million in the last year.

Of course, I am also the Minister for road safety, and one of the benefits of the new Department is that our approach to road safety can now be more integrated with policy and engineering solutions, as well as with the Driver and Vehicle Agency's (DVA) regulation and enforcement role, which are all under my remit.

I have announced my intention to commence a review of taxi legislation in the North. I am determined to support jobs and grow the industry through legislation that protects the industry and its customers and am establishing a taxi advisory forum to ensure that the voices of consumers, operators and drivers inform such a review. Metering remains a central plank of how taxis will be regulated, and current requirements will be enforced from next month. I realise that some drivers have left it late to arrange the fitting of their new meters; I have, therefore, instructed DVA enforcement officers to take a light-touch approach to drivers who, by 1 October, can prove that they have taken all possible steps to have a taximeter fitted and, if necessary, tested by the DVA. That is consistent with the approach taken between May and September.

I believe that government needs to be responsive to the needs of the citizens it serves. During my first 100 days, I have shown that I am prepared to listen to and act on those concerns. In addition to the review of taxi legislation, I have responded to issues that have been raised by halting the roll-out of

2 domestic water meters, moving forward plans for residents' parking in Derry or reducing the speed limit on the Coshquin Road. I have also listened to concerns about grass cutting, weed spraying, gully emptying and general routine maintenance of the road network and allocated an additional £5 million in June to address the backlog. I hope that people can now see the difference that that investment is making and will make on the ground. I was also mindful of concerns raised by many in rural areas who were feeling increasingly isolated and disadvantaged by the poor condition of roads in some areas. That is why I earmarked £10 million to improve around 1,000 rural roads, with work commencing over the summer. That work is, thankfully, well under way, with over one third of it completed to date.

Naturally, I am also concerned about the backlog in my blue badge unit. I am aware that the Chair has written to me about that, and I have responded accordingly. I fully appreciate the needs of people who rely on their blue badge and wish to assure the Committee that we are doing everything that we can to resolve the situation as quickly as possible, including employing additional staff and giving preference to first-time applicants. Furthermore, where blue badge holders have applied for renewal, their expired badge will remain valid while the application is being dealt with.

My Department is leading on the Executive's cross-departmental Living with Water programme to develop a strategic drainage infrastructure plan for Belfast. That programme is aimed at reducing the risk of flooding, complying with environmental legislation and tackling long-term drainage and waste water treatment capacity issues so that the city can continue to grow. That will involve a number of parts of government, and I will liaise with my Executive colleagues to drive the project forward.

In relation to Woodburn forest, I have announced my intention to consult on a change in the law to make oil and gas outside the permitted development region following the serious concerns that were raised by local residents and environmentalists.

When my changes require changes in law, such as class C taxis, water meters and permitted development, I hope that the Committee will help me to ensure that we can make those changes promptly. For my part, I commit that the Department will engage with you early in the process so that any points or concerns can be addressed quickly.

There is, of course, always more that we would like to do. However, the resources available to me are not infinite, and priorities need to be balanced. Like all Ministers, I will face financial challenges in the coming years, and the position on resource funding in particular is likely to be difficult. My major concerns include the funding of my Department's arm's-length bodies — NI Water and Translink — to ensure their operation as viable entities, with Translink alone requiring an additional £9 million in each of the next three years just to break even. You will also be aware of the substantial pressures on the funding of roads and street lighting maintenance, which need to be addressed.

A further challenge will be responding to the EU referendum result. I am looking carefully at the implications for my Department, including projects such as the York Street interchange, where we had anticipated accessing substantial EU funding. I have instructed my officials to continue to pursue all possible sources of European funding.

As I said, engaging with people to understand their concerns and ideas for infrastructure has been an important aspect of the first 100 days. I hope that the Committee will also see me as an open and responsive Minister. While I am conscious that this has been a brisk overview of the issues, there is no doubt that my brief brings challenges. I trust that I can rely on a productive working relationship with the Committee as we work together to tackle them. As I mentioned on the first day that I was here, I want to invite the Committee to join me on some DFI visits, so perhaps the Clerk can liaise with the departmental Assembly liaison officer (DALO) to arrange suitable opportunities for those visits.

Thank you again for the opportunity to come before you. I am happy to take whatever questions you have.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Thank you very much, Minister. The other gentlemen do not want to add anything at this stage.

Minister, I listened carefully to what you said. You said that improved connections are essential to getting a balanced economy for Northern Ireland. I think that you also said that infrastructure was absolutely critical. I have listened to what you listed as what, I assume, are the priorities for the Department — I appreciate that all of them are hugely important in making sure that what you have set out to do on connectivity and so on is actually achieved — and I am alarmed and concerned that you did not mention the transportation hub. I visited Translink over the summer and spent half a day there,

3 and I know that the Committee will spend half a day with Translink. As part of that, I got a briefing on the transportation hub for Europa. I notice that you did not mention it, and Mr May did not mention it last week: has it dropped off the Department's priority list?

Mr Hazzard: Absolutely not. Again, just because something was not mentioned up front here today does not mean that it is not important going forward. The transport hub, like the York Street interchange, is one of the projects that were likely to receive substantial EU funding. There is no doubt that there are challenges ahead for the Belfast transport hub, but I am determined to meet those challenges. The Programme for Government and my priorities are about investing in public transport and continuing the modal shift from the car to public transport, and projects like the Belfast transport hub will be key. I will continue to work with my officials and Belfast City Council to make sure that that project and the vision for public transport in Belfast are realised.

Let me take the opportunity to say that, although I talk about the infrastructure deficit, particularly west of the Bann, I am not suggesting that Belfast, as the key city in the North, is not important. We are advancing projects such as Belfast rapid transit and the Living with Water programme. Key strategic projects are happening in and around Belfast that will, of course, continue to happen and are very important for the wider region. Let me dispel any myth that is maybe being advanced that I am somehow a Minister who does not have his eye on Belfast: that is simply not the case.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): As a Belfast representative, I appreciate and welcome your reassurance on that issue, but I have made the point in Committee before that the new Belfast transportation hub is not just for Belfast; rather, in terms of access and egress, it is for the thousands of people who travel to Belfast daily to work here and for the people who travel to all the provincial towns. Belfast, obviously, is the gateway to Northern Ireland, largely through the airports and ports. It is not only the transportation hub but the tourism hub. Making sure that the infrastructure is right is key for Belfast and hugely important for Northern Ireland plc, so I welcome that reassurance. If I may say so, that should have been named as one of the priorities. You talked about the roads and the £5 million investment, all of which I welcome, but the £120 million investment in the transportation hub should have been included in the list. I welcome your reassurance, however.

On the blue badges, Minister, as you said, I have written to you, and you have been kind enough to write back. I welcome the increased activity that the Department has been involved in on that. The issues were raised with Mr May last week. Members across the House will have been in contact with your Department on the issue because it is hugely important to folk out there. My colleague Carla Lockhart sent a letter to the Committee, in which she makes the point, if I may raise it with you, that people who will need a blue badge for the remainder of their life have to reapply for it every three years. The backlog and the increased workload this year have, I accept, made it difficult for your Department. I also accept that people across the UK have to reapply; I get that. Would it not be an idea for people who are in that position — I do not know how many people that is; your Department will know more than me — with lifelong mobility issues, who currently reapply every three years, would not have to do that? As well as not giving them the hassle of having to do it, it reduces the workload. Can that be considered?

Mr Hazzard: I was with the team in Enniskillen on Friday. It is obvious that that small team is doing a lot of work and has a big task ahead of it. We were launching the online application facility, so there may be scope to look at such issues when we are dealing with an online application process, which will inevitably speed things up big time.

The blue badge is not age-related; it is to do with the disability itself. Very often, a disability can lessen, or situations and conditions can change within the three years. However, we can look at that. The situation that the Department has found itself in with blue badges is unfortunate. Basically, we have had a tenfold increase in the last number of years. The situation was exacerbated by the decision in December 2014 to let go a number of temporary staff. We recently have had to take temporary staff back on to deal with this, so I think that the previous decision was short-sighted. The team that I have engaged with is working hard and getting through the backlog, and changes in the system will allow us to see substantially more light at the end of the tunnel in the time ahead.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): I am worried about the figures that we were given last week on the new applicants and the number that are processed. I ask because I am not convinced, given the figures last week, that there are enough staff to deal with the backlog. Is there scope to bring in staff, whether that is temporarily to deal with this peak or in the long term, if this is going to be needed on an ongoing basis?

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Mr Hazzard: Additional staff are coming in. Staff are awaiting security clearance to join the team and get through the work.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): How many?

Mr Peter May (Department for Infrastructure): I endorsed the appointment of two additional agency staff over and above the normal complement, and some overtime work is being done. Clearly, new staff take time to be trained on the systems and so on. Getting staff who are already expert in the system to work for a longer period is one way in which we can do that. Last week, I talked about new applicants, whom we have been trying to prioritise, but some new applicants are still in our backlog. That work is being focused on at the moment. You raised a specific case with me last week, Chair.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): I have the details, which I will give to you.

Mr May: I am conscious, as a result of that, that some people are awaiting a badge for the first time. That is where our priority is. We normally set a four- to eight-week period by which people might expect a badge. Clearly, some cases are a lot more complicated than others. Those who are on higher-level disability living allowance (DLA) are very straightforward, but, for those who are not, a bit of toing and froing is often needed with medical practitioners or whatever. We have, I think, 3,600 cases that are outside the eight-week period and between 9,000 and 10,000 cases still to be processed, but many of those are within the four- to eight-week period. We are looking to make a dent in that. It will take a few weeks for the evidence from that to become clear. I know that you will receive a briefing in a few weeks' time from the blue badge team, and it will be able to show the extent to which it is making progress by that point.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): We will do that when they come here, but could you pass on our thanks to them for the hard work that they are doing to ensure that this is addressed?

Those two extra staff are on top of how many who are there?

Mr May: The total team is around a dozen.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): That brings it to 14.

Mr May: Yes. I think that that is right.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Given the figures of 9,000 to 10,000 cases and 3,600 outside the eight weeks, is that enough?

Mr May: As I said, it will take a few weeks to resolve; it cannot be done instantly. The Minister mentioned the online application process, which went live on Friday. Clearly, at the moment, every application that comes in has to be keyed afresh by the team. The take-up of that new system could also substantially assist as we go forward. There are a range of steps being taken to try to address the backlog.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): I take that point, and I welcome what you are saying about the extra resource. I make the point that, if people have been told that they are terminally ill and their lifespan is very short, they will not be in any way comforted by having to wait this length of time.

Mr McAleer: I thank the Minister for his detailed report. I will pick up on a number of things. On the taxis issue, Mr McGrath mentioned last week and the Minister mentioned this week that there would be a light-touch approach. Just to be absolutely clear, am I correct that, if taxi drivers can demonstrate that they have applied to have a meter installed, they will not be penalised?

Mr Hazzard: Yes.

Mr McAleer: If they have a printout of the email that they sent or their application form, that will suffice to prevent them from being penalised.

5 Mr Hazzard: I will set it in some context. With the previous grace period and the uncertainty around what was happening with taxi legislation some months ago, there was a belief among some in the industry that metering might not go ahead, and a substantial number of taxi men held back and did not go ahead. We have clarified the position and said, "Metering will certainly be part of this". There will now be a rush of people getting meters installed. To ensure that there is some equality in the system, people should get their applications in, and enforcement will then be light-touch in the weeks ahead.

Mr McAleer: I welcome your commitment to regional development, regional balance and looking at the west, which Daniel, others and I represent. When is the public inquiry for the A5 scheduled to start? What is the timeline?

Mr Hazzard: As far as I am aware, the public inquiry is due to start on around 4 or 5 October. Hearings will take place over five weeks, after which I will receive the report.

Mr McAleer: Finally, blue badges have been mentioned here for several weeks. It is a big issue out there. You made comments about staff being let go in 2014. Why were staff let go from that unit in December 2014? Were there fewer pressures at that time?

Mr Hazzard: I was not in this position at that time, so I will ask Peter to cover that.

Mr May: The Department was facing significant financial problems that meant that, even to deliver a basic road maintenance service, the then Minister had to issue something called a ministerial direction. As a result of that and to minimise the spend, we tried to remove all agency staff as one way to save costs. Clearly, that had the consequence of creating a backlog. We re-engaged agency staff in, I think, the summer of 2015, because we saw the scale of the issues that were being created in that unit. It was done in the context of the Department facing an overspend; indeed, in 2014-15, the Department overspent its budget allowance as a result of the financial problems that we faced.

Mr McAleer: To be clear, it was a ministerial direction to remove those staff in December 2014.

Mr May: It was a ministerial direction for us to overspend to deliver a basic road maintenance service. As a result of that and the fact that we faced an overspend, I as accounting officer took the decision that we should remove agency staff where we could.

Mrs Palmer: It is disappointing that, while we have had an oral ministerial update, we did not get a written one in advance so that we had time to digest all the Minister's address.

Minister, you did not mention the Belfast transport hub in your speech. Most people in Northern Ireland would have thought that that was crucial and one of the major priorities. We would also have thought that the York Street interchange would be a major priority given the congestion around the capital city of Northern Ireland. I am disappointed that we are still talking about projects that are priorities through the Fresh Start Agreement like the Narrow Water bridge in terms of the reduced budget and the priorities. We look at the west and talk about Londonderry and Belfast being the two main priorities for the Minister, but the rest of the region seems to suffer as a consequence. Minister, you stated that you hope that most people can see the differences that are being made, but I am not apologetic for saying that, in my constituency, we cannot see major differences. The grass and a few hedges are being cut, but we are not seeing a major difference in our road structures. Remember that Lagan Valley links the infrastructure of the north, south, east and west, and that seems to be ignored. Minister, as far as your ministerial priorities are concerned as opposed to the Northern Ireland plc priorities, do you consider that, at some point, you may have to look at re-prioritising some of your priorities to bring better balance throughout the region?

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Let me come in before you answer that, Minister. Jenny, I know that you are a new member, and I do not mean that to be patronising. It is normally not practice that a Minister would give a written statement before coming to the Committee. I say that for fairness.

Mrs Palmer: I accept that and apologise.

Mr Hazzard: No problem. When I talk about rebalancing the priorities, that is exactly what I am doing. I was in Fermanagh and Monaghan on Friday. If you live in the west, for many a decade, you will have been looking enviously at infrastructure spending in the east and in and around Belfast. A large number of people will say that it is about time that we had someone who rebalanced the priorities of

6 Northern Ireland plc, if you want to put it that way. I think that that is what I am doing, but that is not to suggest that balanced infrastructure spending across the region is not what we want to go forward with; of course it is. We are investing in the A26 and the A31. I have been to Lurgan to see road projects. I mentioned Fermanagh, where there has been vital work to address some of the flooding problems from 2015 and 2016.

In your constituency, maybe up to £50 million has been spent on safety works on the A1. That was not mentioned up front in my speech, but, for me, it is a huge priority when we look at the fatalities on that stretch of road. We will carry out that very important work over the next number of years. That is not in the west, but it is still important. In the north Louth/south Down area, the Narrow Water bridge project and, indeed, the southern relief project alongside it have the ability to transform an area that has had fairly poor infrastructure investment for decades.

I make no apologies that that is what it is about, but, in the context of Brexit, we do not have the money that we thought that we might have had. I mentioned in the Assembly last week that early indications were that anywhere between £300 million and £400 million would be lost. There is also the economic climate of a Tory Government in London who continually put pressure on our budgets. We do not have the spending power that we used to have, and I have to deal with that. As I mentioned in my presentation, the resource challenges facing NI Water and Translink and of being able to invest in our Living with Water programme are huge challenges for the Department, but we have to get on with them.

Mrs Palmer: I accept that the Minister has a big responsibility for how we move forward and for how we get the best bang for our buck with the spend profile. However, I challenge him to come to Lagan Valley and meet the councils in the area that are struggling to see improvements around the Knockmore/Sprucefield link right through from Loughbrickland. I suppose that I am being selfish here, but it is the route — north, south, east and west — that links all of Northern Ireland on that corridor. I do not think that it is being given enough attention, and I hope that the Minister will at some point review the overall profile and perhaps mention it once or twice.

Mr Hazzard: I am more than happy to engage with local councils and representatives on a number of issues, including that one. We need to be mindful that there are those looking on from areas that do not have an inch of carriageway and whose local economy has suffered for decades; they have not had the power to grow. If we are to grow a local economy that is regionally balanced, it is important to invest like that. I am more than happy to meet the member to pick that up in the time ahead.

Mr F McCann: I welcome the Minister here this morning. When you come to a meeting like this and you are new, like Jenny, you would think that the world began and finished at the Sprucefield roundabout.

Mrs Palmer: So it does. [Laughter.]

Mr F McCann: I welcome the commitment to the Belfast transport hub. I intended to raise it. It could have a huge impact, not only on Belfast and further afield but on two of the most socially deprived communities in Belfast: Sandy Row and the Falls. I welcome your commitment to that. I also welcome your commitment to addressing some of the serious historical problems of investment in the west. That needs to be addressed. People in the west need to feel part of what is happening here.

Everything seems to revert to parking. Belfast city centre seems to be sinking under the weight of parking. The overspill leads to an invasion every day of working-class communities that surround Belfast. It has a huge impact on the health and well-being of those communities. Are there any proposals in the Deportment to tackle some of those difficulties? Will you comment on the provision made for senior civil servants parking in the Belfast area? There are some worrying aspects of that.

Mr Hazzard: I will take the first part of your question, and I will ask Peter to deal with the second part.

As I came into post, it was clear — I was aware of it even as an MLA — that there were areas, not just in Belfast but in Derry, where there was a real need for residents' parking schemes or to move forward with some sort of work around that. It appeared that there had been consultations and work for a number of years, but we had not really got off the ground with any schemes. I have taken the decision that we should move ahead. We have moved ahead with the Derry one. We were able to untangle it from what was happening in Belfast and move ahead with a pilot. That is also what I want to do in Belfast. We may not get it right the first time, but we need to move ahead. The status quo will not

7 suffice. At the very least, we can move ahead with pilots. Let us see whether they work. If they do not work, what needs to be tweaked?

I was out with residents in the Markets area and in Malone, where the frustration is palpable. When you see big developments coming down the line, you know that it will only get busier. I can only imagine the frustration and anxiety. Some emergency services cannot even access the streets because of the cars parked there. I share their frustration. That is why I am keen to move ahead, even with a pilot, to see whether it works or what needs to be tweaked in the time ahead. It is important that we move on that.

I will ask Peter to deal with your question about the Department.

Mr May: In overall terms, car parking policy is something that the Department of Finance sets, but, clearly, there have been comments publicly about the fact that our headquarters building — Clarence Court — has a car park attached to it in which there are a substantial number of car parking spaces. Those spaces are used for a variety of purposes. Most are used by staff who are considered to be essential car users for business purposes. We have a small number of spaces at the moment for a car-sharing scheme, with provision for the parking of 70 bicycles. We also have electric car-charging points and so on. We are reviewing the use of the car park with a view to increasing the opportunities for sustainable transport, such as increasing the number of car-sharing spaces and reducing the reliance on private vehicles. That is going through due process at the moment. I hope that our departmental board will consider a paper on that at the end of October. Work is being done to look at whether we have the right policy on car parking and whether we can reduce the number of private vehicles used for essential purposes. I should also highlight, though, that the Department is geographically spread: we have over 80 locations across the region, and the vast majority of our staff work outside Belfast. Some of those sites are not easily accessible, and I am not presuming that the same approach would apply to some of the regional centres as applies in Belfast.

Mr F McCann: I understand that parking in Belfast can be fairly costly, and I have fallen foul of it quite a lot myself. Is there provision in the broad Civil Service to provide free car parking places in Belfast for civil servants? How many spaces would that be?

Mr May: As I said, there is a car park attached to our building that provides car parking spaces for essential car users who need to use their car for business purposes. My understanding is that some Departments will also have car parking spaces in public car parks for essential car users, but our Department does not.

Mr F McCann: Do you know how many?

Mr May: You would need to ask the Department of Finance. It takes the lead on the overall picture.

Mr McCrossan: Minister, thanks for your update at the start. I get a bit excited every time you say that the A5 is a priority because it has been a long time since a Minister said that and meant it. I believe that you have a key interest, and I am glad to hear that you have your eyes on the west because it has been some years since Ministers who have held this brief have had their eyes on the west. I welcome that announcement. I understand that there is a lot to be done across Northern Ireland, but the west for me is a priority, and Declan will echo that.

In relation to the A5, there are some concerns, Minister, although I appreciate that you will not be able to go into the details of those questions in relation to the impending judicial review that is, once again, on the agenda, but can you assure us that absolutely everything has been covered this time? When it went to court before, everything was thrown out bar one issue, which was the habitat assessment. We cannot afford to go the whole way through this again for something like that to cost the project and the taxpayer dearly. What response can you give us on that?

Mr Hazzard: You are right to say that this is a priority for us. Subject to all the statutory processes and the things that we have to go through, the delivery of the A5 and A6 is fundamental to growing our economy in a regionally balanced way. You have only to ask the 18,000 commuters coming from Derry every day who sit on the A6 whether it is fundamental.

When I first came into post, we had discussions with officials about the A5 and the A6, and it was made abundantly clear that dotting the i's and crossing the t's was just a start. We need to make sure that these cases are foolproof, and we believe that they are now. We have to contest it, but, very

8 often, legal action is par for the course with major infrastructure projects, be it for environmental reasons or anything else. The Department is well equipped to deal with that. I have faith that we have done everything, but I do not want to say too much on the nature of the contest.

Mr McCrossan: Just on the back of that, I appreciate that the Department faces huge financial challenges, and, with Brexit and everything else that is coming down the tracks, things are not easy financially. However, I asked the question of you — you kindly answered it, as you do all questions, quite well in detail — and you outlined that the cost from the initiation of the project in 2017 to 2023 would be £870 million. That does not include any of the money that has been spent so far. It is a huge cost, albeit that it is a vital project that I absolutely support and which is a priority for us, but how do you see the Department coming up with the money?

Mr Hazzard: You are right: it is a huge challenge, but it is one that I have set myself. Coming out of the Fresh Start Agreement, there has been an agreement from the Dublin Government of £75 million. That is much reduced from the £400 million that was previously agreed. The Dublin Government are set to review capital spend next year. I will engage with the Dublin Government, as I am sure my Executive colleagues will, about getting the rest of the money that was originally promised back on the table. No doubt, the Member will be involved in similar discussions, and I make a plea to the member and his party to have discussions at those higher levels too. This is a key project not just for West Tyrone but for Donegal and the west in general. It is very important. I will also have regular contact with our Finance Minister on these projects, as they are very important. Thankfully, the A5 and the A6 are not affected to the same extent as, for example, the York Street interchange or the Belfast hub by the EU referendum result. That does not mean, however, that it is somehow easy to get the money — you mentioned that — but we will do all in our power to get there.

Mr McCrossan: I have one final point. Thirteen million pounds was allocated in the financial year: how much of it has been spent and how much will be returned through the monitoring round?

Mr May: We would need to write to you with the details. I do not have those figures available today.

Ms Armstrong: Thank you very much, Minister, for your update. You talked about a vision for public transport in Belfast: what about rural areas? The integrated transport strategy was not mentioned in your briefing, but I am sure that it is there somewhere. It seems to have stalled somewhat. There are ongoing licensing and procurement issues attached to the possibility of using health and education transport to link in and improve access to public transport in rural areas. Will that move forward now?

Mr Hazzard: Transport, especially in a rural context, is an issue that most Governments are dealing with. Deregulation and privatisation in Britain have been a disaster, and the mixed markets in other places have not worked particularly well either. It is something that I am looking at. There are real challenges coming down the tracks with rural transport; there is no doubt about that. We see the financial situation that Translink is in, so it is something that I will have to deal with in the time ahead. Again, it may be an area that the Committee and I may want to look at.

I was delighted to work with the social investment fund (SIF) fund on community transport as well. It is vital in some areas; in some rural areas, people would simply be lost without the role that community transport has. As we see our education and health sectors continue to reform and change, transport is key to that. Early discussions have taken place about a way forward. I want to see it commence a lot more quickly, but there is a big role for community transport. I know that some of the integrated projects and the pilots that have been run have had mixed success, but the advantages and the benefits are there and are strong enough to go ahead in some other areas, and we are looking at similar projects.

Mr John McGrath (Department for Infrastructure): We continue to work ahead with the integrated transport project. One strand is the work between Translink and the Education Authority about the major fleets, and we have done a couple of pilots on that. The other strand is to work with Health and Education, particularly for very specialised needs, and that is going apace. The other dimension is the Programme for Government and the emphasis on improving the use of public transport. In our engagement process, a lot of issues on rural transport were identified, as the Minister said. There is a big challenge there, and the role that community transport can play in that will feature very highly in the Minister's thinking.

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Ms Armstrong: Hopefully, the joining of the DOE and the DRD functions together with licensing and sitting under the one roof now will help that.

My second point is about the one-year Budget that has been announced, which will have its own difficulties. It could prevent exterior bodies in Northern Ireland — for example NI Water, Translink and other suppliers — from creating savings because of one-year short-termism. How is the Department considering that in its priorities?

Mr Hazzard: Given the outworkings of the EU referendum result, it appears that the Finance Minister has thought it wise to commence with a one-year resource Budget. However for Departments such as mine, a four-year capital Budget would be a great strategic advantage. When you talk to the Quarry Products Association or to the businesses and contractors that we have for our work, you find that having a four-year Budget would be a great advantage that helps us to be far more strategic on our spend — we had a motion on this recently — and I am looking forward to that process. There is no doubt that the one-year Budget will be another challenge. Unfortunately, the horizon, especially for resource spend, remains bleak, and there will be big challenges for my Department, as there will for all Departments.

Ms Armstrong: I am moving around subjects because we have you here and you can give us so much information. My next question is on planning. You did not mention planning, but I know that you were talking about a review of planning coming up. There are some difficulties with regional planning and with gaps in the legislation; for instance, the review of old mineral permissions has not been updated and adjusted. Will the Department work this year to plug those gaps and sort out the legal issues?

Mr Hazzard: We announced recently that I would review planning policy on renewables and development in the countryside, which, no doubt, will be hotly contested. It is an issue that is very close to people's hearts. Again, it is an issue that goes back to the regionally balanced growth that we need to get right across the board. I announced that I intended to change the legislation on permitted development for oil and gas. Of course, connected to that is mineral exploration, which we will look at as well. I wanted to separate the two issues of oil and gas and mineral exploration because there are two different processes. It is something that we will look at.

Ms Armstrong: Thank you. Finally, a comment was made earlier about blue badges. I am a disability activist; in fact, I am the sibling of a man with severe learning disabilities. The three-year renewal process is extremely frustrating, as is the attitude towards people with disabilities. Disability does not get better. If you are a wheelchair user or a person with learning disabilities, the fact that you have to renew every three years is very frustrating. Part of that process is accessing information from the Department of Health to prove your disability over and over again. As a disability activist, I have to say that I am extremely disappointed that the Department does not get that. The accessible transportation strategy missed providing targets to ensure that people were dealt with in specific ways.

As I said, disability does not get better. I would prefer it if the Department did not say that disability blue badges have to be renewed because the disability may have changed over those three years; it does not. In fact, I have been to many tribunals where people have been told, "Obviously, you have a disability; it is not going to change. Therefore, your award of a higher rate of disability living allowance is there until you are 85 years old". Departments do not trust them enough to give them badges for longer. Perhaps in the review of the blue badge, one of the ways that could be considered is to work with the Department of Health so that the burden of proof is not on the person with the disability and that, when a blue badge is renewed, it is taken as a renewal.

Mr Hazzard: Certainly, I will take those comments on board. I am sympathetic to the points that have been made. I suppose that, as matter of fairness, conditions often change; that is the logic behind the three years. It is something that we need to look at. Over the next number of months, we will start to see where there are areas for changing the ability to apply and renew online and where we might strengthen that. You are right: we need to get it right from that point of view. As I say, if the member wants to meet me or correspond with me on the issue, please feel free.

Ms Armstrong: I would certainly welcome that, yes.

10 The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Minister, given the issue that has been raised, you could probably take it that everyone on the Committee, across the parties, is in agreement with the position that people who are disabled or profoundly disabled should not have to reapply. I appreciate that you are taking that on board.

Mr Easton: Thank you for your presentation. What stage are you at with the Narrow Water bridge? Have you had discussions on how it will be funded? It will be a huge project, if it happens.

Mr Hazzard: I suppose that it is not as huge as some of the projects that we are rolling forward. Out of A Fresh Start, agreement was made that officials North and South would work together on the best way forward. To date, officials have met local campaign groups and local people who want to see the project delivered. Next week, they are meeting to go through options on the way forward. I will get a briefing after that ahead of the North/South Ministerial Council plenary meeting later in the year, where the matter will be discussed further. It is a key priority for that part of the world. I suggest that any spend at all between North and South will be well worth it.

Mr Easton: OK. Another issue is disturbing me. I asked you a question in the Assembly about the breakdown of funding by council area for maintenance issues, such as weeds and the resurfacing of roads and footpaths. My council area, Ards and North Down, has the least on all those issues, although it has a bigger population than many of the other areas. Can you assure me that my constituency is not being discriminated against, and will someone from the Department get back to me with the reasons why my council area is getting the least funding for those issues of all areas across Northern Ireland?

Mr Hazzard: OK. I will ask Andrew to answer that, but I can definitely assure you that nobody has discriminated against Ards and North Down.

Mr Easton: I am glad to hear it.

Dr Andrew Murray (Department for Infrastructure): The procedure is that when we get a resource budget it is divided among our section offices on the basis of need. There are weighted indicators that take account of population, but, in relation to maintaining the road network, a much bigger emphasis is given to the extent of the road network, the number of verges and the extent of footway and, in relation to patching, the condition of the road network. We believe that we have a tried and tested method that has been used for many years to allocate the money fairly across all council areas.

Mr Easton: So why am I being inundated with complaints?

Dr Murray: You are probably not the only person being inundated with complaints.

Mr Easton: Well, I would say that I receive substantially more complaints; you can check that.

Dr Murray: Money has been extremely tight for the past couple of years, and we have not been providing the service that we would have done in the past.

Mr Hazzard: I am sure that the member will acknowledge that some area will have to come bottom of the list.

Mr Easton: Yes, well, it will not be mine.

Mr E McCann: I have a couple of questions on different aspects of your remit, Minister. We were talking about the difficulty of parking in Belfast, Derry and elsewhere. One way of helping to deal with the parking problem, of course, would be to get cars off the road altogether, which would have enormous environmental advantages as well as being good for the convenience, in particular, of residents who find their streets choked for a lot of the day. I was struck by the fact that the proportion of spend on transport infrastructure in the North that goes to public transport when compared with the spend on roads is smaller than that of any other region, particularly Scotland. I wonder whether the Department is looking at that with a view to having a better balance between investment in public transport and the construction of new roads.

11 Mr Hazzard: You are right: there is no doubt that the North has a heavy reliance on roads and cars. When you look at the key corridors in the east and the west and where they connect with the roads into them, you see that we are heavily reliant on roads. Per capita, we have the most road or that type of road anywhere in Europe, which would lead you to think that.

As you say, we need to continue to shift from car to public transport, and the Programme for Government sets us various tasks in doing that. At the same time, however, the A5 and the A6 are examples of strategic investment in roads that is needed to boost our ability to have economic growth in all areas of the North. I am very sympathetic to what you say. That is why I have said that the Belfast transport hub is important, as it is very much part of the shift from car to public transport.

Mr E McCann: Still on roads and the economy, I want to ask you about the Derry transport hub, seeing as you have dealt with the Belfast hub. I appreciate that phase 2 of the upgrade of the Coleraine to Derry line will be completed by the end of this year. It has been a long time coming, but it is good to have assurances that it is about to come. Many of us believe that we will not be able to take full advantage of that if we are not certain that the trains from Coleraine, now that there is a passing loop at the famous Bellarena halt, where a plaque has been removed, will help timetabling. However, it would be enormously helpful if we could have an assurance that trains will come into the old station there. It is an historic station, which was designed by John Lanyon and opened in 1874. It is an architectural gem and a listed building. Members of the rail lobby Into the West, such as myself, have not been able to get explicit assurances that, when the new station is built and when it becomes a hub, we will have trains there. It will have to be changed a bit to allow train sets with six coaches to get in.

If I could deal with this at the same time, the tourism potential of that rail line seems to many of us to be huge. It has been described by no less — or no more — a person than Michael Portillo as a —

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Mr McCann, can I encourage you to move to the question?

Mr E McCann: OK. You will be aware that the Giant's Causeway gets 750,000 visitors a year, which is terrific. Fewer than one third of those people, who come from cruises and the rest of it, go on to Derry. We have a line going from Belfast, and large numbers of people from cruise liners use that to go to the Giant's Causeway. If we had better rail transport between the Giant's Causeway and Derry, it would help that; it would not just be an aesthetic thing.

Mr Hazzard: I have totally bought into the need for a modern, first-class transport hub for the north- west, specifically Derry. I will make an announcement on plans next week when I will be in the city. It is vital, as you said, not just for tourism but for economic growth across the piece. When I was in Rathlin last week, and we were talking about the north-west and the Giant's Causeway. The point was made about the possibility of linking with the Wild Atlantic Way. The potential is huge, and central to that is infrastructure and the new transport hub. I am not in two minds about it: the way forward, which, as I say, will be revealed next week in Derry, will be welcomed by many in the area.

Mr E McCann: The delay in the A6 as a result of a court challenge last time round cost a vast amount of money, as you said, and there is a legal challenge to the new proposals. I read in the 'Irish News' this morning that papers were lodged in the High Court yesterday anticipating a court challenge to a £160 million road going through an area closely associated with poet Séamus Heaney. We have to look at the way Yeats country is advertised, because Séamus Heaney was as good a poet as WB Yeats, in my opinion. He was my classmate, so I am biased. Are you concerned about that?

Mr Hazzard: As I said, when we are dealing with major infrastructure projects, legal challenges such as that are nearly par for the course. Departments are set up to deal with them, and we will contest it, of course. I think that the route strikes a fair balance between environmental, economic and engineering solutions. We are talking about a route that was endorsed by an independent inspector in 2007. I am disappointed that, at the eleventh hour when we are about to construct, we are dealing with a legal case, but it is over now to the legal teams to deal with.

Mr E McCann: I have one final, brief point. Moving on from what Mrs Armstrong was talking about with regard to people with disabilities, in the North, unlike across the water, people who are registered blind have free travel. Across the water, people who are registered as partially sighted also have free travel and free travel for a carer or somebody who must accompany them on journeys. That does not apply in the North. Will you look at that? Partially sighted people are disadvantaged in relation to the rest of society, because they are unable to travel as freely as other people, which is clearly wrong.

12 Will you look at that, with a view to expanding entitlement to free travel cards to include those who are registered as partially sighted?

Mr Hazzard: I recently replied to an Assembly question from Michaela Boyle on that issue. Again, I am sympathetic to the arguments, but of course there would be a cost. As a Department, we spend a significant amount of money on concessionary fares. I have outlined the financial challenges for Translink, so if we were to move ahead with something like this we would need to find money from somewhere else. I am sympathetic to the case being made, and I am happy to look at it going forward.

Mr Robinson: I thank the Minister and his team for their presentation. I have several points. My first is about Her Majesty the Queen, who opened the Bellarena halt in recent weeks. A lovely plaque was put up at the halt, denoting her presence at the opening ceremony.That has been removed, much to the consternation of quite a lot of people in the area from both communities. I was at the opening, as were quite a lot of people from both communities, and people are very disappointed and wonder where it has got to. Can the Minister elaborate or give any reassurance that it will be put back again and was not removed for illegal purposes?

Mr Hazzard: Very simply, those concerned with the plaque wanted to keep that lovely plaque lovely and were worried about vandalism. They wanted to ensure it was kept in a safe place and could be positioned somewhere in the station that would ensure that it was free from vandalism and damage.

Mr Robinson: So, in other words, it is in good hands.

Mr Hazzard: Yes, I am sure it is.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Does Translink have plans to put it back in place?

Mr Hazzard: I believe that is the case.

Mr Robinson: Thank you. I have two other points. I would like a progress report on the A26 and the Dungiven bypass.

Mr Hazzard: Is it the dualling or the safety review of the A26?

Mr Robinson: The dualling.

Mr Hazzard: It is progressing well. I expect to visit the site shortly and see the progress, but it is progressing well and there are no hiccups.

A preferred route has been established, and design work is ongoing for the Dungiven bypass, which is the next section of the A6 programme. Anyone who travels from Derry to Belfast or Belfast to Derry will know the need for the bypass. I recently spoke to a trader who was keen to see it happen. There is great support for the initiative, and that is another project I look forward to being able to deliver in the time ahead.

Mr Robinson: Fines for driving in bus lanes in the city have been mentioned to me by several people. How is the money from fines utilised?

Mr Hazzard: This year the fines from the bus lanes — we talked about this the other day — were utilised by Translink to enhance audiovisual information and real-time passenger information. Going forward, I will be working with Translink to consider whether there are possibilities of investing this, maybe with the Department, in other areas. Bus lanes and their future sustainability are important to growing our public transport. When you speak to people who use public transport, they say that the bus lanes have absolutely transformed their journeys in and out of the city.

There were calls this week for bus lanes to be reviewed and removed. That is not going to be the case. Any modern city anywhere in the world has bus lane infrastructure in place to enhance the public transport journey. The advice to those people is to stay out of the bus lanes to avoid fines. Ideally, the Department would not make any money from bus lanes, as people would stay out of them. Going forward, that has to be the message.

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Mr McCrossan: In your opening statement you mentioned flooding, which greatly impacted in Declan's and my constituency, particularly in Clady. I discovered this week that maintenance carried out following the flooding last year was done only to the halfway point in the river because the Office of Public Works (OPW) had done nothing on the other side. What will this mean for the village? People are very concerned about facing the same reality as last year. Businesses and homes were wrecked for a long time.

Mr Hazzard: I am not aware of the particulars of that incident. The Department and I will follow up on it. You have highlighted the need to work on an all-Ireland basis to deal with this, especially in some of the areas around Lifford, for example. You are right: there is no point building half a flood alleviation project on one side of the border and pushing all the flooding further down the river. It is something I am happy to pick up on.

Mr McCrossan: What conversations have you had with the Office of Public Works? I have written to it on numerous occasions. It is very difficult to communicate with and does not seem to appreciate just how difficult this is for people and the need to address it.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Is it a problem in the Republic?

Mr McCrossan: Yes, but what conversations —

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Just for Hansard, I am just —

Mr Hazzard: So far, I have not had any specific discussions on these issues with the Office of Public Works.

Dr Murray: There are operational contacts on the ground between our Rivers Agency and the OPW. I am not aware of this case, but, as was stated earlier, we will check it up.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): OK, thank you very much. As you said, Minister, we are keen to have ongoing formal and informal communications between us on many of the issues that are so pressing for our constituents across Northern Ireland. Thank you all very much for your time in the last hour or so.

I mentioned to Mr May last week that, given the terrible number of road deaths that continue to happen in Northern Ireland, the Committee is organising a road safety event in the Long Gallery upstairs, from 6 pm to 9 pm on 23 November. We have a considerable list — two lists, in fact — of key stakeholders that we want to invite, and an invitation will be sent to you, Minister. In the interests of joined-up governance, I also have agreement from the Committee that we will invite Michelle McIlveen — the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs — the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable, given that they all have a role to play in this. If your diary permits, I hope you will attend.

Mr Hazzard: Absolutely.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Thank you very much indeed.

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