Wednesday Volume 594 11 March 2015 No. 123

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 11 March 2015

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2015 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 277 11 MARCH 2015 278

Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): House of Commons While looking at the transparency of donations to political parties, will my hon. Friend ask the National Wednesday 11 March 2015 Crime Agency and the Chief Constable, when they are investigating organised crime, especially things such as fuel laundering in the border area, particularly South The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Armagh, to look carefully at the destination of funds arising from organised crime, given that the people taking part in crime— PRAYERS Mr Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. I was indulgent towards him in not [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] taking account of the fact that he has Question 8, but the substance of his question just now has nothing to do with Question 1.

Oral Answers to Questions Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I take this opportunity to pay tribute to my predecessor, Lord Molyneaux of Killead, KBE, who served in this House as the Member for South Antrim from 1970 NORTHERN IRELAND until 1983 and then from 1983 to 1997 as the Member for the new constituency of Lagan Valley. He is fondly The Secretary of State was asked— remembered by my constituents. He was the consummate parliamentarian and provided strong leadership in very Political Parties: Donations and Loans dark days in Northern Ireland. He will be fondly remembered and missed by many, and our thoughts 1. Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): What and prayers are with his family. progress she has made on her consultation with the The Secretary of State and the Minister will be aware Electoral Commission on the transparency of donations that Sinn Fein raises millions of pounds by various and loans to political parties in Northern Ireland. means each year for its electoral campaigns. There is a [907932] clear disparity in political party funding in Northern Ireland, yet Sinn Fein Members continue to draw hundreds The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern of thousands of pounds in allowances from this House, Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): The whole House will despite not taking their seats. When will the Government have been deeply saddened by the passing of Lord address this disparity? Molyneaux of Killead. James Molyneaux was a distinguished second world war veteran and a fine Dr Murrison: The right hon. Gentleman will know parliamentarian who served Northern Ireland with great that that is a matter for the House, not me. It was last distinction for more than four decades, both in this determined in 2006, and I would not wish to trespass House and the other place. further on what is the prerogative of the House. We are committed to ensuring the maximum Government’s Economic Pact transparency in party funding in Northern Ireland that the prevailing security situation allows, and progress has been made in detailed discussions with the Electoral 2. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Commission on finalising the new arrangements. I have When she plans to make a progress report on the spoken with the electoral commissioner, and I am confident Government’s economic pact for Northern Ireland. that the necessary draft legislation will be ready to lay [907933] early in the next Parliament. 3. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): When she plans to make a progress report on the Government’s Naomi Long: I add my condolences and those of my economic pact for Northern Ireland. [907934] party to those expressed by the Minister to the family, friends and former colleagues of Lord Molyneaux. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa During the passage of the Northern Ireland Villiers): An annual progress report on the economic (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014, an undertaking pact was published last July. The range of items so far was given here that last October the security situation delivered include improvements to business access to would be reviewed again with a view to lifting the finance; funding projects secured from the Green Investment secrecy pertaining to party political donations. What Bank; the continuation of 100% assisted area status for progress has been made in that regard? Northern Ireland; and a record year for inward investment following the G8 and follow-up investment conference. Dr Murrison: The hon. Lady is right that during the passage of the Act we discussed a review of the security Mr Bain: With one in six people in Northern Ireland situation and amending the measure accordingly. It is on low pay and intergenerational poverty remaining our aspiration to have full transparency in Northern stubbornly high, should not the Government be getting Ireland, as we do in Great Britain. At the moment, our a move on to raise the minimum wage to at least £8 an judgment is that the security situation does not warrant hour and get as many people as possible on to the living it and that we cannot take that risk, but we will keep the wage to make this a recovery in living standards for all matter under constant review. the people of Northern Ireland? 279 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 280

Mrs Villiers: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that The corporation tax question is difficult. It is expressly my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said he would like linked with the resolution of welfare reform. The Bill to see increases in the minimum wage. Also, we are contains a commencement clause, and there is no question cutting taxes for those on the lowest incomes. We have but that this welfare issue must be resolved. The Executive cut taxes for 670,000 people in Northern Ireland, and must fulfil their obligations under the Stormont House those on the minimum wage have had their income tax agreement before the commencement clause can be bills halved. We have also seen unemployment in Northern operated. In the interim, the Government propose to Ireland fall for the 25th consecutive month—it has continue with the legislation and to complete its fallen by 1,700—giving many more people the security parliamentary progress, because we are determined to and reassurance of a pay packet. implement the agreement fully and fairly. Let me be clear: Northern Ireland will not get these devolved Mrs Glindon: Will the Secretary of State meet the powers until the Stormont House agreement has been Northern Ireland union leaders, as I did recently, so implemented. that she can understand the frustrations of squeezed teachers, bus drivers and health workers, and praise Mr Dodds: It is important now that people in Northern their vital work rather than condemn them for being Ireland, this House and everybody looking at the political forced to vote for industrial action? scene are clear that the responsibility for the current crisis lies squarely with Sinn Fein, which is reneging on Mrs Villiers: I have met trade union groups on various its commitments clearly made and openly expressed in occasions, including in Northern Ireland, and I am of the Stormont House agreement. Will the Secretary of course hugely supportive of the work done by our State be clear that she will not take this blanket public servants and our front-line workers. It is important condemnation or blame approach, but focus on the that the whole public sector takes part in the austerity problem—Sinn Fein? programme, and the Government are doing everything they can to put our public finances right to ensure that Mrs Villiers: I will indeed focus on the problem. The we can continue to provide the best possible public right hon. Gentleman is right that this current setback services for the country. is the result of the actions of Sinn Fein, which is, as I have said, hugely disappointing and unhelpful. To be Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): What impact does honest, it was a significant surprise, too, given the the Secretary of State think another round of stalemate enthusiasm with which the Deputy First Minister and at Stormont will have on measures to attract investment Sinn Fein were promoting the agreement. Now I think and encourage growth in Northern Ireland? we all need to work together to try to get this sorted, because it would be a huge step backwards if the Mrs Villiers: There is no doubt that the announcement Stormont House agreement were to be jeopardised. It by Sinn Fein on Monday was a significant setback for would potentially plunge us back into the sort of budget the Stormont House agreement, but it is inevitable that and political crisis with which we were grappling last there will be bumps in the road with agreements of this year. nature. That has been the case in the past. I will be working hard to get things back on track and to help Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): May I, the parties get this matter resolved. Political stability is, on behalf of my party, associate myself with the tributes of course, crucial when it comes to attracting inward paid to Lord Molyneaux of Killead, and convey our investment. That is one of the many reasons why we condolences to his family, friends and colleagues? need to press ahead with implementing the Stormont Given the need to create economic and political House agreement. stability in Northern Ireland, will the Secretary of State prevail on the Chancellor to reduce VAT on United Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Does the Kingdom tourism products in next week’s Budget? That Secretary of State accept that people in Northern Ireland would have important financial consequences for the and those who observe the Northern Ireland political tourism industry in Northern Ireland. scene are stunned, bewildered—and, indeed, angry—at what Sinn Fein has done in reneging on its agreement Mrs Villiers: Let me also take the opportunity to on welfare reform, without any good reason whatsoever? associate myself with the comments of the right hon. Does the Secretary of State wish to spell out now from Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and my the Dispatch Box the implications for corporation tax hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State about the and other issues of the Stormont House agreement not distinguished record of Lord Molyneaux. He was indeed proceeding? It is clear that Sinn Fein is putting its own a very distinguished parliamentarian over many years, narrow party interests ahead of vulnerable people and and this is a sad loss to Northern Ireland. the entire community in Northern Ireland. The Chancellor is well aware of the campaign for the tax change that the hon. Lady would like to see. Tax Mrs Villiers: As I have said, this is a serious setback. I reductions are difficult because the imperative must be believe that Sinn Fein’s change of mind is unhelpful and repairing the public finances, but the Chancellor has hugely disappointing. As I have said, however, the task relieved tax burdens on business by reducing corporation now is for the Northern Ireland Executive parties to tax, introducing an employment allowance and, of course, continue their efforts to implement the Stormont House helping people into work. agreement. I hope to get the party leaders together as soon as possible to discuss how to resolve this welfare Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): May I associate question, but the Stormont House agreement will not my party with the comments that have been made about be reopened; we need to press ahead with implementation. Lord Molyneaux? 281 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 282

As the Secretary of State has said, economic progress to produce better outcomes for victims and survivors. and political stability in Northern Ireland are inextricably All that is under threat as a result of what has happened linked. Does she agree that the unravelling of the Stormont this week, and I will do all that I can to retrieve the House agreement would be an unmitigated disaster for situation so that the Stormont House agreement can go economic and political confidence in Northern Ireland, ahead. and that now is the time for responsible leadership which accepts the need for a reformed welfare system Andrew Rosindell: Does the Secretary of State agree that mitigates the impact of cuts on the most vulnerable that Her Majesty’s Government must take resolute action while also being affordable and sustainable? against Sinn Fein over its irresponsible and selfish behaviour, which is jeopardising the Stormont Parliament and Mrs Villiers: I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. everything that has been achieved in Northern Ireland Now is the time for level-headed consideration of how so far? we can resolve this matter. In the autumn, Northern Ireland faced a budget crisis that was so serious that the Mrs Villiers: As I said, the approach taken by Sinn very sustainability and future credibility of the institutions Fein is hugely disappointing and dramatically different was at stake, and we were looking over a cliff at the from everything that it has been saying over the past few possibility that devolution would collapse altogether. months. I am urging Sinn Fein to change its approach. Returning to that position would be a huge step backward. It is vital that we have a responsible and realistic approach The Stormont House agreement was a big step forward, to welfare. The welfare reform package agreed under and it is vital for all parties to work to ensure that it is the Stormont House agreement is a good one, a generous implemented fully and fairly. one and a fair one, and therefore it is vital that it is implemented. Mr Lewis: Does the Secretary of State intend to convene urgent all-party talks in an effort to put the Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): May I wish all my Welfare Reform Bill back on track? By what date must friends in Northern Ireland the very best for the future? the Bill be passed, if the Executive rather than civil People often take for granted the peace and stability servants are to set next year’s budget in Northern Ireland? that has been secured in Northern Ireland since the 2007 agreement, but that was won only after conflict, Mrs Villiers: As I said earlier to the right hon. Member terror and hatred going back centuries, through very for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), I expect to meet the five difficult negotiations. It took dedicated skill and constant party leaders in the coming days. I hope to do so strong leadership by the Labour Government to achieve tomorrow, but that will depend on when the First and it. Does the Secretary of State accept that maintaining Deputy First Minister return from New York. that progress requires nurturing by this Government It is vital for progress to be made on welfare reform. and also by any Governments to follow? That is a key part of the Stormont Castle and the Stormont House agreements. I will press for such progress, Mrs Villiers: I do accept that. This Government will not least because without it the Northern Ireland Executive’s continue to do all they can to support and nurture that budget will become unsustainable, which will hugely political settlement. That is a message that all parties impair its ability to function effectively. need to hear, including Sinn Fein—that we should not take risks with political stability in Northern Ireland, Political Situation because the consequences could be very grave.

4. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What assessment Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the Secretary she has made of the current political situation in of State recognise that it is not just Sinn Fein, but their Northern Ireland. [907935] lapdogs in the Social Democratic and Labour party who have blocked welfare reform in Northern Ireland 7. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): What assessment and put the Assembly in jeopardy? Will she spell out the she has made of the current political situation in Northern consequences for corporation tax, the economic package Ireland. [907938] and the long-term sustainability of the budget in Northern Ireland as a result of that irresponsible behaviour? The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers): The political situation suffered a setback on Mrs Villiers: If this question is not resolved, if the Monday following Sinn Fein’s withdrawal of support welfare reform legislation remains permanently stalled, for the Welfare Reform Bill. It is very important for the obviously the rest of the Stormont House agreement Stormont House agreement to be implemented fully does not happen. That includes the financial package and fairly, including all the sections on welfare and and the devolution of corporation tax, but we are not at budgets. I will continue to work intensively with the that point yet. It is important to work intensively, and in Northern Ireland parties to resolve the impasse. the meantime the UK Government will do everything we can to continue to implement the agreement. Fiona Bruce: What does the Secretary of State consider to be the wider political implications of Sinn Fein’s Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Secretary of State withdrawal of support for the welfare proposals? will be at pains not to feed the sense of impasse that surrounds the Stormont House agreement. She knows Mrs Villiers: The political implications are very serious. that there were two elements to the understanding on They put in jeopardy corporation tax devolution, a welfare reform—one was the understanding about the financial package of about £2 billion in extra spending amount of money from the Executive’s budget that power, and a fresh approach to the past which is designed could mitigate measures; the other was the degree of 283 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 284 leeway within the welfare spending. Has anything changed Mrs Villiers: I urge everyone involved in parades or in the lines from the Department for Work and Pensions parades-related protest to ensure that all activity related that have given rise to the allegations that Sinn Fein is to parades and protest is both peaceful and lawful and making against the Democratic Unionist party? that the determinations of the Parades Commission, as the lawfully constituted authority, are complied with. I Mrs Villiers: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we continue to have a series of meetings to try to find a way need to do all we can to keep the situation as calm as forward on the parading impasse in north Belfast. possible. Unfortunately, episodes of this kind are characteristic of the implementation process of agreements. Rosie Cooper: In Belfast, my right hon. Friend the It will be helpful for as many facts as possible to be Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) recently made clear about the how the welfare reform programme said that securing the peace process and a strong economy will operate in Northern Ireland and how the top-ups went hand in hand. Does the Secretary of State agree, will operate. It is a generous package and once the and will she support the Heenan-Anderson commission details are clear, I hope everyone will be convinced of to ensure that people at the margins are not drawn to that. violence on issues such as flags and parades?

Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): At this, the last Mrs Villiers: I agree that politics and economics are Northern Ireland questions before the election, there is intertwined in Northern Ireland. Political stability is an air of some melancholy. Who knows where we will crucial for a successful economy. I note the Labour meet again or on what side of the Dispatch Box? May I commission on this, but I think the crucial thing is to ask the right hon. Lady what, in her three years as stick to the Government’s long-term economic plan, Secretary of State, in which she has been unfailingly because that is delivering economic recovery in Northern courteous, she would consider her proudest—her finest— Ireland. achievement? David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Does the Secretary Mrs Villiers: Up to Monday, I would have said the of State recognise the feeling of injustice in the Unionist Stormont House agreement—[Interruption] community on the issue of parades? In my constituency we have waited 16 years to get a return parade—a Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Ealing church parade. When are we going to get a resolution? North (Stephen Pound) asked a question. I want to hear the Secretary of State’s answer, and she is entitled Mrs Villiers: I am very conscious of the concern felt to have her answer heard. in the community in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. It is crucial that the Parades Commission’s determination Mrs Villiers: Up until Monday, I would have said the needs to be abided by, but it is also important to press Stormont House agreement. I think that is still the ahead with a reformed and devolved system of parades greatest thing that I have contributed to and it is still on adjudication, as envisaged by the Stormont House the road. We have had a bump on the road, but the agreement. Stormont House agreement will carry on. The other thing of which I am proud is the progress that we have Cost of Living made towards devolution of corporation tax. I do not want to see that thrown off course by events that have taken place this week. 6. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What steps the Government are taking to reduce the cost of living in Flags and Parades Northern Ireland. [907937]

5. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What further 10. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What steps the Government plan to take to resolve outstanding steps the Government are taking to reduce the cost of issues relating to flags and parades. [907936] living in Northern Ireland. [907942]

9. Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): What The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern further steps the Government plan to take to resolve Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): Cutting income tax, outstanding issues relating to flags and parades. freezing fuel duty, welfare reform, dealing with the [907940] spectacular deficit we inherited and keeping interest rates low are practical examples of how this Government The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs are helping hard-pressed families in Northern Ireland. Theresa Villiers): The Stormont House agreement identified a clear way forward on parades and flags. [Interruption.] Nic Dakin: Labour has set out clear plans to raise the The Government will continue to work with the five national minimum wage to at least £8 by 2020. What is parties in the Executive on the implementation of all the Minister doing to tackle low pay, when one in six the provisions of the agreement, including on these people in Northern Ireland are in low pay? issues. [Interruption.] Dr Murrison: I thought the hon. Gentleman would Kerry McCarthy: I thank the Secretary of State for have started by welcoming the Government’s efforts to that answer, although I must admit I had trouble hearing reduce unemployment in Northern Ireland—17,000 extra it. Unrest around the parades has an unsettling impact jobs in the private sector over the past year alone. If he on the community, on local businesses and on tourism. was listening, he would have heard the answer to his What steps are the Government taking this year to try question from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of to ensure a peaceful parade season? State earlier 285 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 286

Alex Cunningham: The Northern Ireland Council for I know that they will bear down on all the perpetrators Voluntary Action estimates that introducing the living of such activities and on any who receive the funds that wage would see 173,000 low-paid employees receive an those activities create. average gross pay rise of £1,300 a year. Will the Government look at strengthening the living wage to help Northern Mr Speaker: Last but not least, Mr Gregory Campbell. Ireland, which has the lowest private sector pay in the UK? Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Will the National Crime Agency Dr Murrison: The hon. Gentleman will, I hope, have specifically target the organised criminal gangs that are seen the Institute for Fiscal Studies incomes report engaging in subterfuge and in the organised criminal published earlier this month. It marked a major milestone, activity of fuel laundering along the border areas of for it is now clear that average incomes in Northern Northern Ireland? Ireland are back from the pit they were in prior to Labour’s deficit crisis. The IFS further forecasts that Mrs Villiers: That is a significant problem, and the incomes will rise above inflation in the year ahead, and I House will have the chance to debate it later. Significant hope the hon. Gentleman will welcome that. cross-border co-operation is under way, and the authorities in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the police Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Does the Minister services on both sides of the border are determined to recognise that the Democratic Unionist party’s long-term tackle the problem and bring the perpetrators to justice. economic plan to see household taxes at their lowest and a freeze on the regional rate on household taxes for five years is working? However, this Government could have a direct impact by reducing energy costs for employers PRIME MINISTER and consumers alike, and they should address that immediately. The Prime Minister was asked— Dr Murrison: The hon. Gentleman makes his points Engagements in his characteristically formidable fashion, and I am sure he will welcome the freeze on fuel duty, which will Q1. [907992] Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): mean that by the end of this Parliament a tank of petrol If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday will cost £10 less. He will also welcome inward investment 11 March. to Northern Ireland, which I know he feels very strongly about given what has happened in his constituency, The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning with, for example, Kainos, Randox, WhiteHat, Revel I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and PricewaterhouseCoopers. They will be creating 800 and in addition to my duties in this House I shall have jobs in Northern Ireland—high-quality jobs—in the further such meetings later today. year ahead. Stella Creasy: Our allies are warning of a dangerous National Crime Agency gap between us and America on this, so will the Prime Minister tell us what will be more important to him in 8. Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): the next Parliament: protecting our armed forces or What recent progress has been made on the status and introducing tax cuts? operation of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland. [907939] The Prime Minister: What is important is combining economic security and national security, and the two go The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa together. We inherited a £38 billion black hole in our Villiers): I welcome the vote in the Assembly that will defence budget, but because of the excellent stewardship enable the full operation of the National Crime Agency of the economy by this Chancellor and this Government, in Northern Ireland. This will ensure that the people of we have filled that gap. We are investing in defence, our Northern Ireland are afforded the same protections economy is strong and our country is safe. from serious and organised crime as those in the rest of the United Kingdom. Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): Is my right hon. Friend aware that in connection with Mr Robathan: When the NCA is up and running in the Post Office mediation scheme, the Post Office has Northern Ireland, will my right hon. Friend speak via just sacked the independent investigator, Second Sight, the Chief Constable to ensure that the agency investigates and told it to destroy all its papers? Does he agree that it the destination of funds from serious and organised is essential that Second Sight’s second report should not crime? Many of the serious and organised criminals in be suppressed, but should be supplied to sub-postmasters the border area are the people giving funds to the IRA, and MPs, starting with the hon. Member for West and it is important that those funds do not fund political Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and the Business, Innovation parties. and Skills Select Committee?

Mrs Villiers: I am sure my right hon. Friend will The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes an understand that I cannot comment on individual cases, important point. I know that he has consistently raised but I know that the full implementation of the NCA in the concerns of some sub-postmasters about the operation Northern Ireland is a welcome step. I pay tribute to the of the Post Office IT system and the matter of the Post Justice Minister and others for securing that result, and Office mediation scheme. The Business Committee is 287 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 288 currently taking evidence on this issue, and it should Edward Miliband: There is only one person preparing be given all the relevant information. The Government for defeat and it is this Prime Minister. He is not going should not interfere with the independent mediation to be able to wriggle out of this. This is what he said process, but I will ask the Business Secretary to write to before the last general election: my right hon. Friend about his concern and to ensure “we have the opportunity to debate…at prime minister’s questions. that the Business Committee can do its job properly. But that is a very different matter to a proper television debate during a general election campaign…when Parliament is not Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Less than sitting, and when people will be most receptive to engaging in two months ago, the Prime Minister said in this House political discussion.” that he wanted a head-to-head debate between me and We know he lost to the Deputy Prime Minister last him. He said it was game on. When did he lose his time. Why does he not just cut out the feeble excuses nerve? and admit the truth: he is worried he might lose again?

The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: Amazing! The right hon. Gentleman wants a debate, I have offered a date: the week starting wants to talk about the future of a television programme; 23 March. Why won’t he say yes to it? I want to talk about the future of the country. Four questions, three weeks to go, and he cannot talk about Edward Miliband: I am going to be at the debates set jobs because we are growing jobs. He cannot talk about by the broadcasters on 2 and 16 April, but I am asking unemployment because unemployment is plummeting. the Prime Minister about a two-way debate between He cannot talk about inflation because it is at a record him and me. The original proposal for the two-way low. The truth is he is weak and despicable and wants to debate did not come from me or from the broadcasters crawl to power in Alex Salmond’s pocket. but from him. He said: “I’ve suggested…we need a debate where the two people who could actually be Prime Minister debate directly with each other.” Edward Miliband: If the Prime Minister is so confident, It was a good proposal then, and it is a good proposal why is he chickening out of the debates with me? now. Why does he not just name the day? Everyone can see it. Mr Speaker, I will tell you why this matters. It matters because it goes to his character. The The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman said public will see through his feeble excuses. Instead of “anytime, anyplace, anywhere”. I have told him: 23 March these ridiculous tactics, why does he not show a bit —let’s hold that debate. But I will tell him what has more backbone and turn up for the head-to-head debate changed: it is now obvious that Labour cannot win with me—any time, anywhere, any place? without the Scottish National party. He says we need the two leaders, but we need the two leaders who can The Prime Minister: I shall tell the hon. Gentleman call the tune—that is me and Alex Salmond. Let us have what goes to character: someone who is prepared to the debate. crawl into Downing street in alliance with people who want to break up our country. What a despicable and Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister says it is all weak thing to do, risking our defences, risking our about leadership. He says it is about him and me— country, risking our United Kingdom. If he had an [Interruption.] ounce of courage, he would rule it out.

Mr Speaker: Order. Nobody in the House of Edward Miliband: There is only one person who is a Commons—[Interruption.] The Government Chief Whip risk to the integrity of the United Kingdom and it is should not be smirking about it, as it is not a laughing this useless Prime Minister. [Interruption.] matter. Nobody in the House of Commons should be shouted down. I have got news for Members: however long it takes, it is not going to happen—Members will Mr Speaker: Order. The question will be heard. The be heard. noise calculatedly being made by some Members on both sides of the House is a disgrace to the House of Edward Miliband: These are pathetic, feeble excuses. Commons. The right hon. Member for Doncaster North Can we now take it that there are no circumstances in (Edward Miliband) will be heard and the Prime Minister which he will debate with me head to head between now will be heard. That is the end of the matter. and the general election? Edward Miliband: There is only one person who is a The Prime Minister: We have had four years of debates risk to the integrity of our country, and that is this and we have found out he has got no policies; he has got Prime Minister. On the head-to-head debate, we have no plan; he has got no team; and he has got no clue learned something about him: like all bullies, when the about running the country. The truth is this: Labour is heat is really on he runs for cover. now saying that it cannot win the election. I have here the leaflet that Labour put out in Scotland—I think the The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has SNP might be interested in this. It says: been offered a debate any time, any place, anywhere, but “At the General Election we need to stop the Tories being the he will not take it. The truth is that Labour has nothing largest party.” to say on policy and nothing to say on the economy. Its Labour is not trying to win; it is just trying to crawl only way into Downing street is on Alex Salmond’s coat through the gates of Downing street on the coat tails of tails. It is an alliance between the people who want to the SNP. The right hon. Gentleman has to prove he is bankrupt Britain and the people who want to break up not a chicken and rule that out. Britain, and the British people will never have it. 289 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 290

Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): On Q3. [907994] Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Does the Prime 25 March, the Penrose inquiry, which has been looking Minister share my admiration for The Brick, a Wigan at the tragedy of contaminated blood in Scotland, will charity that last year gave 6,000 food parcels to local finally report. It is likely to have implications for the rest families? Will he tell those families why, 30 years after of the United Kingdom. The time scale means that it is the miners’ strike, yet again our community is having to highly unlikely that there will be a full response by this compensate for its heartless and hopeless Government? Government before the end of Parliament. Will my I would be ashamed of that record; is that why he will right hon. Friend, who has taken a great personal not go head to head and debate it? interest in this—as have more than 100 Members of this House—give an assurance that the matter will not slip The Prime Minister: I shall tell the hon. Lady what we from his or the Government’s agenda, and that as soon inherited in Wigan: since we came to office, unemployment as possible in the new Parliament there will be an has come down by 44% in terms of the claimant count. attempt at closing this terrible tragedy in our country? In the north-west, we have seen 124,000 more people in work. Those people are now able to provide for their The Prime Minister: Let me first pay tribute to my families. That is what is happening. We have a growing right hon. Friend for leading on this issue. I suspect economy because we dealt with the mess left by the hon. that, like me, every Member of Parliament has heard Lady and her party. moving stories at their surgeries from constituents who have hepatitis C or HIV because of contaminated blood. It is right to wait for the Penrose inquiry. Let me make it Q4. [907995] Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and clear that that is not an excuse, because I want us to take East Thurrock) (Con): We can be rightly proud of our action. I am not sure whether that action will ever fully science and technology research base, but there is a satisfy those who want this wrong to be righted, but as a danger that Government spending on that important wealthy and successful country we should be helping area is falling behind. When my right hon. Friend is these people more. We will help them more, but we need returned as Prime Minister in only a few weeks’ Penrose first, and if I am standing here after the next time, will he commit to a real-terms increase in the election it will be done. science budget, thus supporting Basildon’s innovative industries, maintaining our world standing in the Q2. [907993] Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP): Before sciences and helping to create the high-paid jobs that the last election, the Prime Minister repeatedly promised we need to deliver our long-term economic plan? to cut immigration. Instead it has gone up. Net immigration is now three times higher than he promised. Why has he The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely failed? right to mention science. Of course, we ring-fenced the science budget during this Parliament because it is The Prime Minister: We have cut net migration from absolutely essential to building the modern manufacturing outside the European Union. We have created more and advanced economy that we want to see. We can also jobs than the rest of the European Union put together, see excellent initiatives such as the Newton fund, the so we now need to reform welfare to ensure that people Alan Turing institute and the Sir Henry Royce institute—all who come from other European countries cannot claim big investments in science in the next Parliament. unemployment benefit, leave after six months without a job and have to work for four years before they get tax Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): It has credits. That is what people will get if a there is a been estimated that entrenching market structures in Conservative Government after the next election. the NHS, for example through tendering, bidding and contracting to the private sector, costs over £10 billion a Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): In year. Why does the Prime Minister not think that that celebrating international women’s day, the Prime Minister money would be better spent on patient care? can be congratulated on making it happen for women: we have more women in work than ever before, more female-led businesses than ever before, more females on The Prime Minister: What we have done is save boards than ever before, and more child care provision money by cutting out bureaucracy, so we are seeing an than ever before. Given that women are core to the extra £4.5 billion go into the NHS. If the hon. Lady is long-term economic plan, will my right hon. Friend saying that there is no occasion at all when anyone from support the creation of a women and equalities Select the independent, charitable or voluntary sectors can Committee to ensure that future Governments do as help in our NHS, I think that she is wrong. I think of much for women as the current Government have? the work that Macmillan cancer nurses and Marie Curie Cancer Care do, helping with the end of life. The The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend idea that there is only one way to deliver health care in in agreeing to that. Of course we still have to break our brilliant NHS, which is expanding under this down disadvantage and barriers in our country, but Government, is completely wrong. there are more women in work than ever before; the pay gap for the under-40s has been eradicated; we are doing Q5. [907996] Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): Despite more to help with child care and to help people with record numbers of new jobs, people with a learning caring responsibilities; and we have tried to help women disability can still find it tough to get into work. Will the around the world, not least by campaigning and working Prime Minister join me in welcoming the Basingstoke to cut out female genital mutilation and to put an end inclusion zone, which will recognise the commitment of to the horrors of forced marriage. This Government local employers to people with a learning disability, have a good record on promoting women’s issues and whose talents and ability in the workplace are too often rights, not just in the UK but right around the world. hidden? 291 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 292

The Prime Minister: I certainly join my right hon. “Consultancy firms were not commissioned to produce reports Friend in praising the great work of the inclusion zone, on the local health economies, as described in the question”. which is launching this Friday. We need to build on the May I ask the Prime Minister why, election or no success we have already, with employment of disabled election, the Government are engaged in a cover-up of people up by 141,000 over the past year. We need a what lies in store for large parts of the NHS around the change not only in action, but in culture, which is why country? the Disability Confident campaign is so important for encouraging employers to join in and give employment opportunities to disabled people. We now have over The Prime Minister: There is a pattern, which is that 1,000 committing to change their practices with disabled Labour MPs in Staffordshire are determined to try to people, and I want to see that go right across the country. frighten people about the future of the NHS, and they are the last people who should do that after the appalling mess they made in Mid Staffordshire. We are seeing Q6. [907997] Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I £12.7 billion more money going into our NHS and a am sure that the Prime Minister will want to join me strong future for the NHS in Staffordshire that will be in congratulating Titanic Belfast, which this week beat continued as long as I am in this place. competition from the London Eye and the Eiffel tower to become the best international group visitor attraction. Does he therefore share my frustration and Q8. [907999] Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): anger that in the same week the much bigger prize of This is the third time in four months that I have raised political stability and economic progress is being at Prime Minister’s questions NHS England letting jeopardised by Sinn Fein reneging on promises made in down the 180 or so people with ultra-rare diseases, the Stormont House agreement? some of whom are outside the House today, who have been failed by a flawed process. Some of those children The Prime Minister: First, let me join the hon. Lady will lose access to their drugs from May, and their in praising the Titanic exhibition, which I have been to conditions will deteriorate irreversibly. We have two see myself. It is an absolutely brilliant visitor attraction sessions of Prime Minister’s questions left. Can he tell and yet another reason to visit Belfast, and not only for me that, in that time, he will announce when we will get people from across our United Kingdom, but for people interim funding for the drugs that these children and from across Europe and around the world. I agree that these people need? what matters now is implementing the Stormont House agreement. Everyone should do what they signed up to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely do in that agreement, including Sinn Fein. I know that right to raise this issue, because these are very rare and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern debilitating conditions, and there are drugs that can Ireland is working very hard to try to ensure that help the children who have them. Having looked at everyone fulfils their pledges. this—and I know that the health and science Ministers have looked vary carefully at it and met the families and Q7. [907998] Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): Will the the drug companies, as well as NHS England—my Prime Minister join me in paying tribute to the many understanding is that NHS England is holding a review, dedicated health professionals who work at St Ann’s which will be completed by the end of April, and the hospice in my constituency, and does he agree that the companies are currently funding these drugs until the decision to devolve £6 billion of NHS spending to end of May. So I do not see any reason why there Greater Manchester presents a tremendous opportunity should not be continuity of care and continuity of to integrate health care services better and secure a drugs, and that is what I hope we can achieve. more positive long-term funding arrangement for our local hospices? Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): The Prime Minister: I totally agree with my hon. Spending 2% of GDP on defence is not only significant Friend. The hospice movement is another good example as part of our NATO commitment—it is also a of something that provides vital health and social services commitment to being a reliable ally. Only last September, in our country but is not necessarily owned and operated the Prime Minister still thought it was important when by the NHS. I am a parent who used a hospice in he lectured other NATO countries on meeting Britain’s Oxford regularly, and I was absolutely amazed by the commitment. Is he not just a little bit embarrassed that brilliant work they do. We have allocated over £100 million he himself has now reneged on that? of capital funding to hospices since 2010, and that is in addition to the £10 million for children’s hospices. I The Prime Minister: This country has met its NATO would welcome more NHS money being made available commitments, not only for 2% but to spend the money to hospices, as he says, and I think that the Greater on deployable equipment and forces, which is just as Manchester decision is a way of ensuring that decisions important a commitment. What I would say to the hon. are made between local authorities and the NHS and Lady is this: how does she feel about her leader are made closer to the patients who they are serving. contemplating a deal with the SNP, who want to strip this country of their defences? That is what they are Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): A leaked prepared to do. He will not rule it out. It says very NHS report shows a looming deficit of £200 million in clearly in his leaflet: they are only trying to be the Staffordshire in three years’ time. Last year, 10 more of largest party; they are not trying to win a majority. That these reports were commissioned into distressed local is the risk we face: no Trident, no protection for our health economies around the country, and yet, after country—defence stripped bare by a Labour party in repeated stonewalling, health Ministers are now saying: hock to the SNP. 293 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 294

Q9. [908000] Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend raises a With unemployment falling in Southend, enterprises very important issue, which has been well broadcast expanding and 310 new businesses being created, will and covered in the media in the past couple of days. my right hon. Friend describe to the House which That is why we are carrying out an asbestos review Government policies will see this recovery continuing going through all schools. We will publish it in due so that the irresistible and unstoppable case for course, and action will have to be taken. Southend to be made a city actually happens? Q11. [908002] Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside The Prime Minister: Can I once again commend my and Hillsborough) (Lab): I was thinking of raising with hon. Friend on the consistency of his campaign to see the Prime Minister the Conservatives’ so-called long- Southend recognised in that way? He asked me what term economic plan—like Pinocchio’s nose, it grows policies will make a difference and continue to bring longer and less attractive by the day—but with just two businesses to Southend. We are cutting the jobs tax for Prime Minister’s questions to go, I thought that I businesses and charities, and that is helping; we have got would ask the Prime Minister whether he shared my the lowest rate of corporation tax in the G7, and that is imminent relief that neither he nor I will have to pencil helping; we are abolishing national insurance contributions in 12 noon on a Wednesday any longer. for under-21s; and we are extending the doubling of the small business rate relief. All of these things, sticking to our long-term economic plan as the OECD, IMF and The Prime Minister: May I take this opportunity to others have advised us to, can make sure that Southend pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman, as he will can continue to grow and perform well. shortly be leaving the House? As a new Back Bencher, I will never forget coming to this place in 2001 and, in the Q10. [908001] Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): light of the appalling terrorist attacks that had taken In protecting universal benefits, the Prime Minister place across the world, seeing the strong leadership he said that pensioners “deserve dignity” when they retire. gave on the importance of keeping our country safe. He Retired constituents in West Lancashire say, “What’s is a remarkable politician, a remarkable man. I remember the point of a bus pass when there are no buses?” once in the Home Affairs Committee that, even though [Interruption.] There are not even trains, as the Conservative he could not see who we all were, he knew exactly who borough council has pocketed the additional money was concentrating and who was not. I do not know that would have been used to allow pensioners to have how—he has this extraordinary gift—but he is an access to trains. Will the Prime Minister do the right extraordinary politician. I pay tribute to him, and I thing—[Interruption.] know the rest of the House will join me in doing so.

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady needs to bring her Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): During his question to a close, but that question, notwithstanding conference speech, the Prime Minister rightly warned a display of very considerable rudeness towards her, will voters flirting with UKIP that if they went to bed with be heard. That is the end of it. It will be heard however Nigel Farage on 7 May, they could end up waking up long it takes; it does not matter to me. with the Leader of the Opposition on 8 May. May I put Rosie Cooper: Will the Prime Minister do the right it to the Prime Minister that the outcome could actually thing and ensure that concessionary travel for all pensioners be a lot more unpleasant? Is it not now the case that if is fair and equitable? voters go to bed with Nigel Farage on 7 May, they could wake up not only with the Leader of the Opposition, The Prime Minister: Of course, buses are the but snuggled up next to Alex Salmond? responsibility of the county council, so I think the point made was a fair one. I have talked about dignity and The Prime Minister: That is the point. Who knows security in retirement, because we have kept our who you could wake up in bed with? It might not just be commitments and upgraded the pension by the triple Alex Salmond; it might be Nigel Farage. It could be any lock, so pensioners in the hon. Lady’s constituency will number of people. [HON.MEMBERS: “It could be Nick have £950 more in terms of the basic state pension than Clegg.”] Yes, of course that is an option too. It all when I become Prime Minister in 2010. We committed points to the difference between the competence of the to keeping the free bus pass, keeping the free television Conservatives and the chaos of the alternatives. licence, keeping the freedom from prescription charges. We have kept each and every one of those promises. We Q12. [908003] Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) have gone beyond that by saying to pensioners that they (DUP): People in Northern Ireland have once more do not need to buy an annuity: it is their money, their seen the issue of sexual abuse put under the spotlight savings, and they can spend it as they choose. This has as members of the IRA stand accused of holding been a Government who have recognised that people kangaroo courts, re-traumatising victims as a result. deserve that dignity and security, and we have delivered Will the Prime Minister help to establish a cross-border in full. inquiry with the power to call key witnesses, to try to Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): bring some form of closure and justice, especially to Seventy-five per cent. of our schools contain asbestos, young people who have been abused and whose abusers more than 20 teachers a year are dying from exposure to have been sheltered by the IRA? asbestos and our children are known to be particularly vulnerable. Will the Prime Minister ensure that the The Prime Minister: I will look carefully at what the Government publish their completed policy review on hon. Gentleman has said. The Stormont House agreement asbestos in schools before Dissolution? includes a set of measures and proposals to try to deal 295 Oral Answers11 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 296 with the issues of the past in a fair and accountable come down by 64%. I know that, working with Craig way—perhaps this is one such issue that could be dealt Tracey, he will work hard to ensure that North Warwickshire with in that way. continues to benefit from our long-term economic plan.

Q13. [908004] Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): In Q15. [908006] Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) Gosport we have a proud history of supporting the (Lab): The Prime Minister may know that this could be armed forces, and the recent £420 million contract to my last Prime Minister’s questions after 20 happy years service the Chinook helicopter fleet will help local representing Bradford South. He will be pleased to companies such as Vector Aerospace to preserve those know that I am making my retirement plans—what are links. With that in mind, will the Prime Minister his? reassure the House of his commitment to defence spending, the defence industry, defence procurement The Prime Minister: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and defence jobs? not only on his service in this House but on winning a by-election. Any of us who have taken part in by-elections—I remember the Bradford South by-election, The Prime Minister: I can certainly make that not entirely happily from my point of view—knows commitment. We have said that the £160 billion equipment what daunting prospects they are. We all have plans for programme over the next decade is fully protected and after 7 May, and people who we want to spend more will grow in real terms, and I have recently been to time with, and less time with. I have a little list, and I Portsmouth to see for myself the new docks that are suspect he has one too. being put in to welcome the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, and the massive investment that will go into Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Members Portsmouth for ship servicing. My hon. Friend’s of the Scottish National party have been licking their constituency will benefit from the Chinook contract—a lips in public at the prospect of blackmailing one of the new order of Chinooks pumping money into our defence two main parties into delaying or abandoning the industry and leading to the training of apprentices, jobs replacement of the Trident submarines. Will the Prime and livelihoods for many years to come. Minister confirm that if he is still Prime Minister in 2016, as he should be, he will ensure that the maingate Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): A couple contracts for four successor submarines are signed that with two children where the man earns £25,000 and the year? woman earns £10,000 will be £9,417 worse off in tax credits if they stay together, as opposed to if they break The Prime Minister: I can reassure my hon. Friend. up. Is that brutal attack on working families another For me, Trident and its replacement are non-negotiable. reason why the Prime Minister will not go head to head They are an absolutely vital part of this nation’s security. in a pre-election debate with the Leader of the Opposition? Let me just remind Labour Members of the leaflet going out across Scotland. It says this: The Prime Minister: This Government have obviously “At the General Election we need to stop the Tories being the largest party.” helped all couples by lifting the first £10,600 that someone earns out of tax, and we are the first Government to They have given up trying to be the Government and introduce a married couple’s tax allowance, which I trying to win a majority. They want to crawl into seem to remember the hon. Gentleman voted against. If Downing street on the coat tails of the SNP and put our he cares about couples and commitment, he should be country at risk. The British people will never have it. voting with us. Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Seventeen thousand police officers have gone in this Parliament. Q14. [908005] Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Under the Chancellor’s spending plans, another 30,000 It has been an honour and a privilege to be the would go in the next Parliament. The outgoing president Member of Parliament for North Warwickshire for of the Association of Chief Police Officers, Sir Hugh the past five years, and I am particularly proud that in Orde, has warned that it would no longer be possible that time crime in North Warwickshire has fallen. adequately to protect the public from criminals or from There are more doctors and nurses in the George Eliot the growing threat of home-grown terrorists. Is he hospital, and the number of schools rated as needing right? improvement has halved. Perhaps most importantly, unemployment in North Warwickshire has fallen to the The Prime Minister: What we have seen in this Parliament lowest level since constituency records began in 1983. is that, yes, we have made difficult decisions on police Does the Prime Minister agree that that shows that spending, but crime is down, including crime in the west gripping the economy, gripping the deficit, and having midlands. an effective long-term economic plan is not just empty As for the shadow Chancellor’s dossier this week, he rhetoric but makes a real difference to people on the briefed against it before we even had a chance. I have ground? heard of him briefing against the leader, but he has beaten his own records. He now briefs against himself. The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for all the work he has done. The claimant count in Several hon. Members rose— North Warwickshire has come down by 70% since the election, and the long-term youth claimant count has Mr Speaker: Order. 297 11 MARCH 2015 Points of Order 298

Points of Order Mr Speaker: Order. Please, Mr Bryant, I know you are an exceptionally clever man. No one is more aware 12.37 pm of your cleverness than you, but you can leave me to Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): On a deal with this matter. point of order, Mr Speaker. I need to declare an indirect interest. I seek your advice, because I would hate for a Conor Burns: We are, of course, regularly reminded Minister to have unwittingly misled the House. Is it in of that, not least by the hon. Gentleman himself. order for the Chief Secretary to return to the Dispatch In a deferred Division, when one wishes to abstain, as Box and supply the correct figures for social house I tried to recently, I was told that if one fills in both the building? Yesterday, in response to me, he said that the Aye and the No Lobby one is recorded as “not voting”. Government Was that advice correct, or should it be possible, in the “have the highest annual rate of social house building than under same way that one can vote in both Lobbies, to do the the previous Government”.—[Official Report, 10 March 2015; same in a deferred Division? Vol. 594, c. 145.] The UK Housing Review, published on Monday, had Mr Speaker: I am advised that the advice the hon. within it a Department for Communities and Local Gentleman was given is correct. The hon. Gentleman Government live table, which had the following figures will have heard that the Acting Clerk has confirmed the for social rent starts and completions: in 2009-10, there accuracy of that advice to the Chair. were 39,492 starts and 30,939 completions. The figures in More widely, perhaps I can take this opportunity to 2013-14—the last full year—were 3,961 and 7,559 respectively. make it clear—I think this largely deals with the concerns As you can see, Mr Speaker,the Chief Secretary’s statement of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—that is wrong, and his Government have not out-built the the occasional practice, and it is usually a very occasional Labour Government. matter, of a Member going through both Lobbies as a means of abstaining has long been deprecated by the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Chair. It is not a breach of any particular rules, so far as point of order and for advance notice of its likely I am aware, but it has long been deprecated by the content. She has put her point on the record. I hope she Chair. It did happen on a piece of legislation a couple of will understand if I say that the content of Ministers’ years ago. I have to say, I strongly deprecated the observations in the House is not a matter for the Chair. decision of a particular Member to abstain in that way. If the Chief Secretary, upon reflection, judges that he I think it is an unsatisfactory way to behave and it is has made an inaccurate observation, it is of course open better avoided. to him to correct the record in one or other of a number of different ways. I hope the hon. Lady will not take I think we have dealt with the matter, but if the hon. offence if I say—it is meant as a compliment—that she Member for Rhondda now wants to have his say on his is a wily character. She has largely achieved her objective feet, rather than from his seat, doubtless he will do so. by putting her point on the record in prime time. Chris Bryant indicated dissent. Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have always advised Members of this House of the importance of showing BILLS PRESENTED respect to others in the workplace. In that regard, is it appropriate, in this House, which is a workplace, that a female Minister should be referred to as a washing STANDARDISED TESTING FOR DIABETES (PEOPLE machine? AGED 40 AND OVER) Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) point of order. I certainly did not say that a Member Keith Vaz, Mike Freer, Andrew George, Grahame M. was a washing machine. If I caused offence to an hon. Morris, Jim Shannon, Mark Durkan, Mark Reckless, Member on Monday afternoon in the course of Question Mr Adrian Sanders, Dr Julian Huppert, Valerie Vaz, Time, in rebuking her for a long answer—it did result in John Robertson, Mr Jim Cunningham, Mr Alan Campbell a somewhat shorter one after that—and if I caused and Phil Wilson presented a Bill to require the Secretary offence by what I said, I very happily apologise to that of State to provide annual standardised tests for diabetes Member. I intended to cause no offence to her and hold for those aged 40 and over; and for connected purposes. her in the highest esteem. I hope I ordinarily treat Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Members with great courtesy. It was an off-the-cuff Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 186). remark, it may well have been a foolish one, and I apologise for it. NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In this House, during a Division, Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) if Members wish positively to abstain, the option of Caroline Lucas, Andrew George, John Pugh, Mr Michael walking through both the Aye and the No Lobby is Meacher, Chris Williamson, Mr Roger Godsiff, Kelvin available to them. Hopkins, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Dr Eilidh Whiteford, Hywel Williams and Katy Clark presented a Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): No it is not. Bill to re-establish the Secretary of State’s legal duty Conor Burns: It is possible to walk both through the as to the National Health Service in England and to Aye Lobby and the No Lobby and— make provision about the other duties of the Secretary of State in that regard; to make provision about Chris Bryant: No, it is not. the administration and accountability of the National 299 11 MARCH 2015 300

Health Service in England; to repeal section 1 of the Horses and Ponies (Live Export) National Health Service (Private Finance) Act 1997 and sections 38 and 39 of the Immigration Act 2014; to Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order make provision about the application of international No. 23) law in relation to health services in the United Kingdom; and for connected purposes. 12.42 pm Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 187). Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about improving and enforcing the arrangements for the regulation of the export of live British horses and ponies from the United Kingdom; to require the Secretary of State to commission and publish a study of the effectiveness of such arrangements, including their efficacy in distinguishing between the transportation of live horses and ponies for sports and those for meat; and for connected purposes. The Bill would require the Animal and Plant Health Agency to take full responsibility for enforcement of horse health and welfare laws at British ports. It would require them to use the Government Agency Intelligence Network to involve Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the National Crime Agency and other authorities to crack down on the illegal trafficking of tens of thousands of British horses, ponies and donkeys each year. The UK can be proud of its laws that protect the welfare of every one of our country’s 1 million equines, including protecting them from indiscriminate export for slaughter. Indeed, if I want to export a horse legally I must complete various papers and declarations citing the purpose of export, the destination address, the veterinary certification that I have obtained stating that the horse is in good health, and details of the horse passport and microchip numbers. Ponies must also be above a certain value—at least £145, depending on size—if they are to be eligible for export. One might think that the information declared in these export applications would be occasionally checked and the destination address validated to ensure it exists. Sadly, it seems that this simply does not happen. One might think that, at the very least, the health certification of animals leaving or entering our country would be checked by the APHA at our ports, but that does not happen. One might also think that occasional checks are made to ensure that the horses listed in the export declaration are the ones on the given lorry, but that does not happen, either. One might think that occasional checks would be made to ascertain the transported animal’s welfare, as advised by the European animal transport regulation, but that does not happen, either. In fact, horses and ponies can effectively be shipped anywhere, for any purpose, in any condition, despite our laws, which are meant to protect them. For instance, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs says that there have been no applications to export horses for slaughter for very many years. However, World Horse Welfare, which I thank for its help in preparing the Bill, has clear evidence that many horses and ponies exported under the pretence of sport or leisure are actually taken directly to addresses associated with the meat trade, including markets on the continent where slaughter buyers are present. We are not talking about a few dozen horses slipping through the net; we are talking about tens of thousands of horses and ponies each year. 301 Horses and Ponies (Live Export)11 MARCH 2015 Horses and Ponies (Live Export) 302

For example, over just one weekend of monitoring in in horse exports. Secondly, DEFRA would make the 2013, World Horse Welfare saw 51 shipments exported APHA the enforcement authority for all equine exports from Dover to France and 41 shipments imported, on and imports, including health, welfare and documentation. vehicles taking between two and 22 horses. Not a single That streamlining of enforcement would be effective check was observed being carried out by the APHA. It and simple to implement. A similar scheme was in place is no secret that these low-value horses and ponies are some years ago when checks at our ports were carried probably being exported with fraudulent identification out by the State Veterinary Service before the current documents, thereby allowing them to be entered into arrangements were put in place. the meat trade on the continent. Without proper Penalties for breaches would be increased and the identification, these horses could not be considered safe maximum imposed to serve as a deterrent. The penalties to enter the food chain, but European abattoirs are imposed for breaches of welfare-in-transit laws are usually much more likely to be fooled by false UK paperwork insignificant—cautions or brief suspensions—despite than our own abattoirs here in the UK. We are watching the courts having the option of fines of up to £5,000 per this happen and, it appears, doing nothing. I am afraid animal. Penalties for breaches of other laws, such as the that this is exactly the kind of complacency that contributed use of false horse passports or vehicle violations, are to the horsemeat scandal. Horses, unlike other livestock, also relatively small and are therefore also too often not are relatively unregulated, so trafficking in them is easy considered worth the time of local authorities. However, to get away with. if it follows the national intelligence model the APHA Organised criminals are also exploiting the fact that could target prolific offenders collectively and significant horseboxes can sometimes travel in and out of Britain penalties could be imposed through the courts, thus without a single check or search. Imagine the tax revenue delivering much-needed revenue to the Government, we are losing by letting this trade flourish under the never mind what tax officials and the criminal enforcement radar, never mind the value of their proceeds from agencies might be able to recoup from the proceeds of crime. The case of a horse dealer from Northern Ireland, these traffickers’ crimes. caught smuggling nearly 25 kg of cannabis worth nearly My Bill would also require the APHA to put in place £250,000 in his horsebox, is just one example of the an effective collaborative framework to gather, assess, kind of trade we are dealing with. The charity World disseminate and act on intelligence regarding equine Horse Welfare estimates that a lorry load of 20 horses health, welfare and documentation irregularities as well could be worth anything from £5,000 to £10,000 at the as suspicious patterns in the trade. The APHA claims meat markets, and that trafficking 10,000 horses per that it already conducts intelligence-led enforcement year would fetch criminals £2 million to £5 million. but it has no effective system to hold, analyse or act on There no enforcement because there is no longer a that intelligence. Non-governmental organisations such workable line of responsibility or, it appears, the effective as World Horse Welfare have extensive intelligence that resources to enforce the laws. Instead, we seem to have a they share with Government agencies and are keen to dysfunctional system where responsibility appears to be share with the APHA. Many NGOs are ready and shunted between DEFRA, the APHA and local authorities. willing to do all they can to help. As the competent authority, DEFRA is responsible for the enforcement of the laws governing the welfare, Finally, my Bill would require greater transparency transport and trade of animals. However, it has delegated and therefore accountability for the APHA by publishing that duty across different agencies. The APHA is clear enforcement actions and suspensions, as happens with that it does not enforce those laws. That is a job for local vehicles through traffic commissioners and the Vehicle authorities through trading standards or other agencies, and Operator Services Agency. I hope that the House but trading standards will not consider enforcement will support the Bill so that we can better protect our unless there have been reported breaches in compliance. horses, stop this criminal trade and ensure that the Even then, it must meet its public interest and Government receive their due revenues. proportionality tests. As the APHA does not have an Question put and agreed to. intelligence capability, it can only act on specific intelligence. Ordered, Without intelligence, the APHA is reliant on assessing the declared information of compliant individuals, which That Gregory Barker, Mrs Anne Main, Zac Goldsmith, does nothing to identify or assess the non-compliant Sir John Randall, Caroline Nokes, Jim Fitzpatrick, trade. Effectively, therefore, we have no enforcement Simon Kirby, Joan Walley, Michael Fabricant, Charlie whatsoever and criminals will continue to profit from Elphicke, Andrew Rosindell and Mr Shaun Woodward horse suffering. present the Bill. My Bill would, I hope, change that. First, it would Gregory Barker accordingly presented the Bill. require the Secretary of State to commission and publish Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on a study of the effectiveness of the current enforcement Friday 27 March and to be printed (Bill 188). 303 11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 304

who might have a party political affiliation but who is Opposition Day so experienced in broadcasting for ITV and in the world of the BBC is speaking so forthrightly about how [19TH ALLOTTED DAY] broadcasters have handled the situation. It has to be said that that is particularly the case with the BBC, which has a responsibility as a public broadcaster to be General Election Television Debates fair and impartial to everyone. One issue that concerns television licence fee payers in Northern Ireland is the deliberate exclusion of Northern Ireland parties when 12.52 pm other parties from Scotland and Wales that stand only Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I beg to in their respective countries are included. That prompts move, serious questions about the impartiality and fairness of That this House recognises the potential value of broadcast the BBC, in particular. general election debates between party leaders; notes however that neither the broadcasters nor politicians can escape the charge Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I very of self-interest in their organisation, and that they should best be much agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s last point. left to an independent body to arrange; further notes that the broadcast debate formats proposed for 2015 have been inconsistently It is no good the broadcasters saying that the Welsh and incompetently formulated so far; further notes that there nationalists and Scottish nationalists can take part in exists a substantial danger as a result that these debates will now the debates if the parties from Northern Ireland cannot. not happen; and believes that the point of any debates which do He should pursue his case vigorously. happen must be to benefit those who watch them, not those who appear in them or broadcast them. Mr Dodds: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Mr Speaker, you are the first among us to mention his support. I am also grateful for the support that has when the public think we are doing a good job of been evident from Members on both sides of the House. debating and whether we get it right or wrong. You, sir, Indeed, I have with me letters from the leaders of other do a much better job of ensuring that debates happen parties throughout the United Kingdom defending and than the broadcasters do and, if I may say so, of supporting our inclusion in the national debates. ensuring that all the relevant people turn up, including Ministers. In this Parliament, Ministers have certainly Let me make the position of the Democratic Unionist been made much more accountable than they have been party very clear. We want the national debates to happen in previous Parliaments, and I am sure that the whole and we do not want to intrude or ask to be involved in a House is grateful for that. national debate involving the national parties. For instance, we are quite happy that there should be a head-to-head With just eight weeks to go to polling day, there are as debate between the Prime Minister and the Leader of many questions as ever about the proposed television the Opposition or a debate among those parties that are broadcast debates. Who will be debating with whom? deemed to be national and have sufficient standing to Who is invited? Who will actually turn up? When are stand in all parts of the United Kingdom. We did not the debates happening? On not one point has agreement raise any objections to that or ask to be included in that been established, and we heard again today at Prime debate. When the broadcasters decided that they would Minister’s questions that the controversy continues to invite the Scottish National party from Scotland and rage. The situation is completely unsatisfactory and Plaid Cymru from Wales to be involved in the national deeply disappointing. debate, however, that prompted the question of why Before the broadcasters report critically about us, they would include a party that stands only in Scotland they must first ask what they have got wrong in this and a party that stands only in Wales but not the process. Did they engage constructively and sensibly Democratic Unionist party, which has more MPs and with all the parties? Can they honestly say that they have more votes than Plaid Cymru and more MPs than the had at the front of their minds the interests of the voters, Greens, Plaid and the SNP put together. The whole their viewers? Has not the self-interest of the broadcasters thing is ludicrous. been rather too evident in much of the many mistakes they have made so far? We met the BBC at our request after it had proposed its second formulation. As I understand it, the BBC When we put ourselves before the voters, we hope for never asked to speak to any of the parties in Northern a fair hearing. Does anyone think that the broadcasters Ireland. Not only did the BBC not speak to the political have had that, rather than ratings and spectacle, in parties in Northern Ireland but, as I understand it, the mind? If they did, how does one explain their oscillation BBC mandarins and fonctionnaires did not even speak from one format for debates to another? to their own journalists in Northern Ireland. I am not sure what happened in other countries or regions of the Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Did the right UK, but they took the decision without consulting the hon. Gentleman welcome, as I did, the intervention by people directly involved in Northern Ireland. I hear Lord Grade, the former chairman of the BBC and them talk about consulting all the parties, but it is clear chairman of ITV? He knows what he is talking about that they have not fulfilled their obligation, because when he says that the arrangements for these debates they have not consulted us, despite our size and contribution are deeply flawed. and the potential for a hung Parliament on 8 May. These are serious questions, particularly for the BBC, Mr Dodds: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that need to be answered. I reiterate our position: we are raising that point. The intervention in a letter to The concerned with the national debates only because parties Times this morning from the noble Lord was interesting from other countries are to be involved but Northern and pertinent. It is interesting to note that someone Ireland is to be excluded, and there will be parties in 305 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 306 those national debates putting forward candidates in in my seat, and Cornwall has a tradition of regional Northern Ireland, and therefore it is prejudicial to parties—but does he agree that the broadcasters need a Northern Ireland parties, particularly the DUP. model that fits all future purposes, whether for regional It is sometimes said by the BBC and other broadcasters, or national broadcasts, and that can determine which “Well, there will be local debates in Northern Ireland parties participate? They need to express a model that among the main parties. That is the opportunity for makes sense. Northern Ireland politicians and parties to debate in front of the Northern Ireland electorate and set out Mr Dodds: Until now, the broadcasters have made it their policies.” That is all fine and well—we have no up as they have gone along, responding to pressure objection to debating in that format—but I understand here, there and everywhere. They have responded to the that such debates will also take place in Scotland and latest opinion polls—the exclusion and then inclusion Wales. Yes, let’s have those debates, but when it comes of the Greens was done on the basis of opinion polls—but to the national debates, we cannot have one rule for polls go up and down, so a decision on whether someone parties chosen arbitrarily at the whim of unaccountable should be included will depend on when one takes note broadcasters deciding what is best for everyone else and of the polls. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. having a different rule for Northern Ireland. That is A model needs to be designed in good time, well before totally unacceptable. a general election—especially because with fixed-term Parliaments everybody knows when the election will Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Lord be—and with maximum agreement, setting out fairly Grade is reported as having accused channel bosses of and squarely the rules that will apply come what may. breaking their legal duty of impartiality in threatening It needs to be fair to all parties and all regions and to stage the debates without the Prime Minister, but countries of the UK. We cannot have one country does that duty not also extend to the DUP, which is well excluded and one major party in the House disadvantaged represented in this House, given the inclusion of Plaid compared with other smaller parties. It cannot go on Cymru and the SNP? like this—he is right about that. The broadcasters came up with their first formulation— Mr Dodds: My hon. Friend raises the important three debates, four parties—but then they changed their point, which the noble Lord referred to in his article, minds and told us that seven parties would be invited. about the duty of impartiality that is placed on the BBC Not only did they completely change the proposed and to which I think other broadcasters should show format and bin the nonsense about dissidents being due high regard. It remains to be seen what happens. “empty chaired”; they came up with proposals that, Significantly, in this debate about debates, people have among other fascinating things, told us that the Liberal been forthright in saying, “This will happen”, but the Democrats and Plaid amounted to pretty much the reality keeps turning out to be very different. In the first same thing—I mean no disrespect to either party when formulation, the broadcasters assured us that there I point out to the broadcasters that there is quite a big would be three debates with invitations to four parties—the difference between them in terms of size and appeal Conservative party, the Labour party, the Lib Dems across the UK. and UKIP—and that if anyone did not turn up, they would be “empty chaired”, but then of course they Until last week, no one had agreed even to that changed their minds. second unsustainable debate format—Labour had not agreed; UKIP had not agreed; the Liberals were vigorously Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): denouncing the prospect of being relegated to football The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case, conference status; and the DUP had not agreed either. but is it not paradoxical to have party political broadcasts We have been absolutely consistent. As I said in response that virtually nobody watches but not to have debates to earlier interventions, we can entirely see the case for that 23 million people watched the last time they took the parties that Ofcom deems “the big four” debating place? Are the broadcasters not trying simply to step with one another. One can debate whether Ofcom is into the vacuum that the House has left, and should we right, but that is what it has said, so we can see the case not legislate to ensure fair debates across the UK and in for the broadcasters organising the debates on that the nations and regions of the UK? basis. At a stretch, we can see the case for including the Greens—it is arguable, although it would make for much better television, from the broadcasters’ point of Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman raises an important view—but we do not accept that the BBC and other point to which I shall return. Indeed, our motion states broadcasters can pick and choose which parties from that the matter has been so badly handled by the the countries and regions of the UK they deem fit to broadcasters—undoubtedly political self-interest has raised attend. its head as well—that steps should be taken, as a result of this debacle, to ensure a fair and equitable basis on which to agree proper and fair debates. This experience Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Does the right makes that point very strongly—although whether it hon. Gentleman agree that the problem arose when the should be done through legislation is another matter. broadcasters broke their rationale simply to include UKIP, rather than sticking with the previous elections Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): The right hon. Gentleman as the basis on which to decide who should participate? is making a powerful case, and he makes his point about That is where the rot stems from. regional differences very well. Of course, the BBC and commercial stations can put on regional programmes Mr Dodds: The hon. Lady raises the point I referred involving regional politicians—regional parties are emerging to about Ofcom’s definition for deciding which the in England, such as the North East party now standing main parties are. It is for Ofcom to make its own 307 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 308

[Mr Dodds] Unionist party could play a much more significant role on 8 May than some of the parties that are going to be decisions and explain its rationale, and she certainly has included in the debates. People across the United Kingdom a point, but we are where we are with that decision. It need to know where we stand on the national issues. goes back to the point made earlier by the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales). We cannot go on making it up Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I agree with as we go along. We need a set of rules, well in advance virtually everything the right hon. Gentleman has said of the elections, that are clear, rational, fair and in this debate so far. Let me ask him about timing, understandable. which is a huge concern to me as a candidate. By having the TV debates within the last three or four weeks of the Ian Swales: I do not know whether the right hon. campaign, we convert it into a sort of “X Factor” Gentleman is coming on to the issue later in his speech, whereby people will decide how to vote on the basis of but the question of thresholds is relevant. Will such looking at the television screen. The role of the hundreds arrangements or models contain some sort of threshold, and hundreds of candidates out there campaigning will based perhaps on current representation in this House be completely sidelined by this process if it takes place or some other method? Such a system would have in the last few weeks of the campaign. Perhaps the right various features, which could be explained in advance, hon. Gentleman intends to cover this, but I think the and then used on every occasion. timing of these debates in a short campaign, which devalues the role of candidates, is an important one. Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman is right. That is certainly part of the debate that should happen, but it Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman makes an important should happen well in advance—not in the heat of a point, which I think should be discussed in the wider general election and not in the run-up to the election context of setting out a model for how these debates when so many vested interests are at stake. As we have should be run in the future. The timing is extremely discovered, people who were previously enthusiastic important. I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. have become less enthusiastic, depending on their particular Gentleman said about the effect of these big debates vested interest. Likewise, others who were not so keen and the attention they receive. The Prime Minister’s have suddenly become very keen indeed. argument about sucking the life out of the campaign is relevant, particularly to local campaigns. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): The right hon. Gentleman is making a compelling argument. Having said that, however, I also have a lot of sympathy Does he agree that the wider body politic and all our with the view that the public are interested in having constituents right across the community would like to these sort of debates between people who might become see us debating the substance of the issues that impact the Prime Minister and form the Government. It is a on them on a day-to-day basis, on which the general question of balance, and looking at when these debates election will be decided? should happen is relevant, but I am not going to be prescriptive about it. It should be discussed and debated, and we need an independent model to take it all into Mr Dodds: The hon. Lady is absolutely right, which account. It is wrong to say merely that we should go is why it is important to have a debate about ensuring along with what the broadcasters have outlined because that that happens. As things stand, it looks likely that they believe that it is the right approach, and that the public, who watched the debates in considerable anyone who disagrees with that does not have the numbers last time, will be denied the opportunity to interest of the wider public at heart. I do not believe hear the contributions from the various party leaders that that is the right approach; it is a question of who could form the Government. The public would be balance. very interested to hear about the priorities for the smaller parties that could play a significant role one way or the other—what is their general outlook and how Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): My right hon. would they see things shaping up? I agree entirely with Friend has alluded to the fact that after 8 May Democratic the hon. Lady. Unionist Members could have a say on who walks into As I have said, at this time no one has any idea what Downing street as Prime Minister. That being the case, debates, if any, are going to occur. The broadcasters can is it not right and proper that the national audience say what they like about being determined to proceed should know where smaller parties such as ours stand and can make threats of empty-chairing, but there is no on the issues of national defence and the Union, on consensus at all about whether these debates are going grammar school education, health care, taxation, the to occur. cost of living, defence spending and so forth? The public are entitled to know that; it will help them to I want to make it very clear to the House and people decide which parties should help to create and form the beyond it that Northern Ireland Members will certainly next Government. not tamely accept any attempt to pick and choose the parties to the detriment of Northern Ireland. We are part of the United Kingdom; we play a very significant Mr Dodds: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; that is role in the House. The Democratic Unionist party has in the interests of people throughout the United Kingdom. eight MPs, but there are other Northern Ireland Members If we are to hear the views of the Scottish National from other parties, and indeed no party, who play a role party and Plaid Cymru, it is absolutely right for people here, too. They deserve to have their voice heard on to hear the views of the Democratic Unionist party and behalf of the people they represent. They should not be others on the national issues, because this could have a excluded, especially in a context where the Democratic major impact on the next Parliament. 309 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 310

When the leader of my party, Peter Robinson, and I Even now, it is not too late to do what should have met the BBC in Belfast, we heard this argument: “We been done long ago. A matter of such importance—putting have included the SNP and Plaid in addition to UKIP, the electoral choices of the British people directly in the Greens and the three major national parties, but it front of them—should be raised above the level of would be difficult now to include the DUP.We recognise partisan squabbling or media meddling. Even at this the strength of your numbers; we recognise the role you late hour, a Speaker’s Conference would start to take us could play in the next Parliament; we recognise that you where we need to go, towards the establishment of an have more votes than Plaid; we recognise that you have independent commission to superintend broadcast election more seats than Plaid; we recognise that, unlike some debates. Of course the public want to hear from us, but parties, you are genuinely going to weigh up the options they must hear from us fairly, without bias and without after the election on the basis of proposals that come the blatant incompetence that we have seen here before forward. You are not in the pocket of any party; you getting in the way. have not already sold your vote. You have not already Throughout the world, broadcasters work with said that you are going to oppose the Tories, come what independent commissions arranging political debates may, or that you will never go into coalition with the of this kind, and the end result is that in other countries, Labour party. All that is perfectly valid, but it will be those debates happen. Here, it seems that the broadcasters very difficult to broadcast a debate because we would know best. They know how to organise the debates, and have to invite all the Northern Ireland parties, which they go ahead and try to do so on their terms. What has would make it very unwieldy.” been the end result here? Chaos and confusion—and, So it comes down to a problem the broadcasters have eight weeks before the general election, no one has any created by the inclusion of the SNP and Plaid Cymru, idea what is happening about any of these debates. leading them to say, “It is too difficult to cover Northern Ireland because we would then have to include more Dr McCrea: Lord Grade, whom I mentioned earlier, parties than the DUP”. It is a problem of their own writes that the BBC and the broadcasters creation. It is hardly fair to blame the DUP or Northern “are not the guardians of democracy.” Ireland when this is a problem that the broadcasters He also writes that they are “unequivocally playing have created themselves. When they came forward with politics.” Surely those are not characteristics of an this formulation and created this problem, they must independent BBC, and surely that means that an have done so with their eyes wide open. They must have independent body to arrange the debates is required. known that the effect would be to exclude Northern Ireland completely and that they would have to resort to a weak argument along the lines of: “It would be very Mr Dodds: Again, my hon. Friend has made an unwieldy in broadcasting terms and it would not be a important point. We must remember that we are sent to great television show.” I have no reason to doubt that this House, having been elected by the people, to speak functionaries at the top of the BBC and elsewhere are for the people: that is our role. We must take some reasonably intelligent people, so they must have known responsibility, and learn the lessons of this debacle. We the implications, but they were prepared to proceed need to ensure that the debates happen in future, but on nevertheless. In my view, that is a gross dereliction of the basis of a model that sets their organisation and their duty of fairness and reasonableness. formulation aside from broadcasters and politicians. I want the debates to happen. I sense that many David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Does my right Members on both sides of the House want them to hon. Friend agree that this is blatant arrogance coming happen, and that many members of the public do as from the BBC. This is an organisation funded by the well. The public want to see their politicians in front of general public who pay the licence fee. The public want them, debating the issues, at the appropriate juncture. to hear what the parties have to offer. This is just blatant The tragedy is that, at present, it is the broadcasters arrogance. who are getting in the way, During Northern Ireland questions, my right hon. Mr Dodds: That is absolutely right, and I think the Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) BBC will live to regret that arrogance. The way it is referred to the late Lord Molyneaux of Killead. Let me, treating the political parties of Northern Ireland displays as leader of the DUP group at Westminster, add my a great level of contempt for the people of Northern own tribute. I know that Jim Molyneaux, who was a Ireland. distinguished and valiant Member of the House for I shall start my conclusion as I know other Members many years, would have relished the excitable mess—as want to speak. Where are we at the moment? We are, he would have put it—that people have got themselves preposterously, supposed to believe the threat from the into. He would have been getting them together and broadcasters that they can legally contrive debates during counselling them to sit down and find a way through it, the short general election campaign at which the Prime calmly and rationally. He conveyed such a sense of Minister is not present while many of his political authority that I think he was almost born an elder opponents are. Reference has been made to what Lord statesman, rather than growing into the role. He wanted Grade has said today. Some people may believe that people to engage in politics in sentences and paragraphs that is possible. Some people in the BBC, including rather than in soundbites, and that is what these debates broadcasters, may believe that it is possible, although I should be about. We should be seeking to place serious, should add, in fairness to the BBC’s employees, that I coherent, cogent arguments before the public. That is have yet to meet a BBC journalist who believes that it is. one of the reasons I believe in a debate. I believe that, It would do the BBC Trust, and indeed Rona Fairhead, sadly, Prime Minister’s Question Time has become largely some good to listen sometimes to what members of an exchange of soundbites, all sound and fury and very their front-line infantry are saying. little elucidation. 311 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 312

Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The right hon. Member for Belfast North was ingenious Lord Molyneaux was adept in another respect. At the in drafting the motion. This is not, of course, a matter time of the last hung Parliament when Unionists held in which the Government have any direct legislative say. the balance of power, he showed that Ulstermen, and I think it important for the press—and broadcasters indeed women, are very good at doing politics when the specifically, as part of the press—to be recognised as occasion arises. being robustly independent, and I would not want to breach that in any way Mr Dodds: My right hon. Friend has made a very The Government have no direct role in the conduct of pertinent point, but I think it is a debate for another the leaders’ debates, which, in my view, is entirely proper. day. Government policy extends only to the framework by Obviously my party will always stand up for Northern which broadcasters are regulated in the United Kingdom. Ireland, and in raising this matter today, we are standing Under the Communications Act 2003, Ofcom, the United against an illogical and unreasonable attempt by some Kingdom’s independent communications regulator and broadcasters to exclude us from the debates. However, competition authority, is required to set the standards the issue is wider than just us. Who are these debates for programmes on television and radio, which are for? Are they for the people who take part in them? Are embodied in the broadcasting code. The code applies to they for the people who so desperately want to produce all broadcasters who are licensed by Ofcom. Crucially, them? No, they are not. They are for the people who it contains specific rules which apply during election watch them, and who then decide whether we are to periods, and which require licensed broadcasters to come back to this place. If the broadcasters cannot be ensure that their coverage is duly impartial. That includes trusted to put the interests of the voters first, in all parts the requirement for due weight to be given to the of the United Kingdom, we must remember our historic parties. role. We speak for the people because we are elected by In parallel the BBC, whose output is overseen by the the people, and others should never dare to presume to BBC Trust, has editorial guidelines and election guidelines get in the way of the people when they are trying to hear that set out the requirements for impartiality and accuracy their elected representatives speak and debate with one generally, and specifically within an election period. another. I commend the motion to the House. The role of the press has been debated extensively during this Parliament and I know that all Members 1.25 pm will support me in recognising the principle that The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): I independence and the requirements for accuracy and thank the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) impartiality should be at the heart of broadcasting in for giving us an opportunity to debate this matter, and this country. for making such a powerful speech. I also thank him for Let me say a little about the particular contention in evoking the spirit of Lord Molyneaux, whose presence, this debate. The aspect that the right hon. Member for given the respect that he enjoyed in this place, would no Belfast North raised is who gets the power, in effect, to doubt have been very welcome during these rather decide who gets a platform and who does not, and the turbulent discussions. way in which that has been conducted. He made a This may be a debate about debates, but it still powerful case on behalf of his party and all parties in matters. Millions of people watched the televised debates Northern Ireland. He expressed forcefully their concern at the time of the last general election, and I think that about their exclusion from the arrangements proposed it was a positive step for our democracy that the electorate by the broadcasters. He referred to the fact that at the were able to reflect on the choices that were put before last election the Democratic Unionist party won more them. However, as we heard from my hon. Friend the votes than one of the parties that is included in the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), television seven-way debate, and more seats than four of them. debates are not the only feature of a general election To try to cut through the logjam, the Prime Minister campaign, and the intensity and concentration of their made an offer to participate in a seven-way debate sequencing tends to generate a close interest which, as before the start of the campaign. The leader of the the Prime Minister put it, sucks some of the life and Labour party said that he would debate the Prime vitality out of the campaign itself. That was certainly Minister “any time, any place, anywhere”, as I understand the case last time. Three years ago, the Prime Minister it. The Prime Minister has proposed a time: he proposed proposed that we should agree on a set of debates that that there should be a debate the week after next. The would, ideally, take place before rather than during the offer has been made; it is now up to the Leader of the short campaign, so that campaigning in the constituencies Opposition to accept it. would not be overshadowed by the very important aspects of the debate. As for the specific line-up of the parties, the Prime Minister has said, as the right hon. Member for Belfast Ian Swales: Does the Minister believe that such debates North will be aware, that the leader of the DUP should should take place before the publication of party be permitted to make his case for why he should be manifestos? included, but that case should be made to the broadcasters rather than to the Government. Greg Clark: As was made plain today during Prime Minister’s Question Time, there is plenty to talk about. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I think that the choices between the parties are pretty May I take the Minister back to the point about the clear, and I see absolutely no reason why we should not timing of these debates? Of course the Prime Minister have a debate. The Prime Minister proposed that we and the Leader of the Opposition can find plenty to should have one during the week beginning 23 March, talk about. No doubt they could fill an hour arguing and I hope that his proposal will be taken up. every day of the week, but the point is that in elections 313 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 314 the electorate has the opportunity to vote for a manifesto. “Don’t give your opponent a platform.” Does he accept Is it not absurd for the Prime Minister to propose a that those in power will try not to have such debates, as debate before the manifesto is published? That is a con we are seeing right now? on the electorate. Greg Clark: I can only speak for my party, but a Greg Clark: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. platform for the Leader of the Opposition is something There is plenty to debate, as he is kind enough to devoutly to be wished for by those of us on the Government acknowledge, week after week. There will be no shortage Benches. I do not know whether that breaks rule 101, of points that can be made in the debate and it would be but I very much hope that the Leader of the Opposition a good thing to get on with it. I hope the Leader of the will accept the invitation. Opposition will change his mind and agree to participate in the debate. Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): In every part of the United Kingdom, we are living On that point, the Leader of the Opposition has agreed through a time of rapid political change. Between one to the broadcasters’ proposal for a head-to-head debate election and the next, we have seen major shifts in voter with the Prime Minister. Why is the Prime Minister support, so it is vital that we do not see the result of refusing to have that debate? previous elections fossilised in the format of the TV debates. It is for this reason that the Prime Minister Greg Clark: The Prime Minister has made an offer. objected to the exclusion of the Green party from the The Leader of the Opposition said that he would debate broadcasters’ original proposal. To people who ask, “any time, any place, anywhere”. The Prime Minister “Why should he care?”, let me give an answer that said that he would appear in the debate the week after should appeal to all of us in the House. The more we next, and I look forward to the Leader of the Opposition are seen as turning our back on the legitimate expectation appearing there. that people whose parties enjoy some support in the The proposal for an independent body is not a new country should be able to make their case, the more we one. The House will be aware that the Select Committee risk increasing the sense of alienation between this on Communications in the House of Lords examined place and the country we represent. I also think it is a these questions and published its findings on 13 May good thing to put the smaller parties on the spot. We 2014, in good time before the general election. Though know they can protest, and they often do so vociferously, recommendations were explicitly not made to the but the question is whether they can propose workable Government, reflecting the point that I made earlier, solutions to the problems that they draw attention to. the Committee’s key conclusion questioned whether an That is a different matter. independent body was required. It said that it had Speaking of workable solutions, it is clear, as the considered carefully the potential case for a body to be right hon. Gentleman affirmed in his remarks, that established independently of the broadcasters to oversee the broadcasters have failed to produce one in regard to and produce broadcast election debates, but it has not the debates. Today’s debate demonstrates that the proposals been persuaded. It found no good arguments for the made thus far have not achieved the breakthrough or introduction of such a body. the consensus that three years ago the Prime Minister Given the events of the past year, others, no doubt said should have been engaged in ahead of the general including the right hon. Member for Belfast North, will election. Lord Grade’s letter, which many hon. Members insist that the status quo is not working, and would have spoken about today, comes from a very distinguished perhaps invite that Committee to reflect on its proposals. and experienced broadcaster and regulator, who should In the immediate term, this is the purpose of the Prime obviously be listened to with respect. My party entered Minister’s offer of a televised debate before the campaign into negotiations with the broadcasters in good faith proper, but time is running out. If the Leader of the and repeatedly made the case for a more representative Opposition does not make up his mind soon, it will be debate structure. Initially this was unilaterally disregarded, too late. Inevitably, he wants to distract us by insisting as the exclusion of the Green party made clear. The that the debate be restricted to the Prime Minister and follow-up proposal was made without any consultation. himself alone. He does not want the scrutiny of the The motion before the House today proposes a new other party leaders— way forward—the creation of an independent body with responsibility for arranging the debates. The right Stephen Twigg rose— hon. Gentleman would acknowledge that it is rather late in the Parliament to debate the proposal, but he Greg Clark: The hon. Gentleman will have his chance. proposes it to reflect his dismay at the arrangements that have been suggested. It gives us the opportunity to The Leader of the Opposition does not want the raise the key questions—most fundamentally, who would scrutiny of other party leaders, including the leaders of the independent body be independent of? How would it other parties who are entitled to their say—the point be established and how would it be funded? Which that the right hon. Member for Belfast North made. debates would it produce? Who would it invite and how The Leader of the Opposition has already had his would this stand up to challenge? How would it succeed chance. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was in convening the parties at all? Would they be compelled debating with him again today. I have calculated that to participate? How would it secure the distribution of they have spent nearly 40 hours facing each other across the debates by the broadcasters? this very Dispatch Box over the past four and a bit years. The latest instalment of this long-running televised Ian Swales: The Minister mentions the possibility of head-to-head debate took place just a few minutes ago, parties being compelled to participate. As a great student and it will continue up to the moment that Parliament is of politics, he will know that rule 101 for incumbency is, dissolved. I can understand that the Leader of the 315 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 316

[Greg Clark] his spokesman here: an opportunity to appear before the nation with the other party leaders to explain why Opposition might like one more chance to get it right—he he should be Prime Minister. Our offer of this televised tends not to come off the better in these head-to-head debate before the campaign starts still stands. Is he up debates—but if it has not happened yet, I suspect it for the challenge, or is he frit? never will. I read in the papers that the latest wheeze from the Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I thank the Minister official Opposition is a law to make the TV debates for giving way; I thought he had sat down and had not mandatory. It is hard to know where to begin, or where allowed me in. Will he answer this question clearly for the legal action from excluded parties would end. If the record, because he has not done so yet: has the participation in the debates is to be made compulsory, Prime Minister ruled out a head to head, potential then, goodness me, are we to make watching them Prime Minister with potential Prime Minister? Has he compulsory too, as part of the edification of voters? ruled that out, and am I correct in thinking that the Indeed, it sometimes seems that the Opposition’s way of debate he is offering is just one with other leaders? thinking is: why achieve anything through voluntary action when we can use the power of the state to enforce our will? It is very revealing of the instincts of the Greg Clark: I am always happy to extend my remarks Labour party that, faced with a difficulty, it reaches to include the hon. Lady. What we have seen—I think for legislation and compulsion rather than agreeing a this has been attested to in the speeches so far—is consensual way forward. In making this ludicrous proposal, complete chaos and confusion on the part of the the Labour leader has done more to reveal the likely broadcasters. The Prime Minister has made an offer—an chaos that would ensue from the election of a Labour offer he first made three years ago—to have a debate Government than any number of debates could achieve. before the election campaign starts. The offer is there on the table; I very much hope the Leader of the Opposition Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): takes it up. On voluntary or compulsory participation, does the Minister agree that the ideal solution would be some form of independent commission for the next election 1.44 pm five years hence, which every party is obligated to agree Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): to, and with fairness as the essence of the decision I join the Minister in congratulating the right hon. about how the debate would be constructed? In that Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) on securing this way, no one would have any excuse for running away timely debate on this important subject. As has been from the debate. said, the general election is just eight weeks away. In the 21st century, it is surely right that the public have an Greg Clark: I listened with respect to the proposal opportunity, in the weeks before polling day, to see the from the right hon. Member for Belfast North and his party leaders and potential Prime Ministers debate the party. I understand the frustration they feel and why issues. they are proposing this, but it is rather late in the day. I put on record my concern that compelling voluntary Voter turnout has fallen significantly in recent years. organisations to participate is not in the spirit of the Trust in politics and politicians is at a low ebb. We must way we have conducted these things. I accept the spirit do more to confront these challenges, and television in which the proposal has been made, however, and I do debates are an opportunity for the party leaders to not think the intention is to put this on the statute reach out, to inspire, to answer concerns and to attempt book, but to explore the issues. to engage with people. In 2010, nearly 10 million people watched the first TV debate between the leaders, eclipsing Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): To assist even “Coronation street” and “EastEnders”. It is an in this matter, could a Speaker’s conference be brought extraordinary opportunity to reach out to people, many into existence immediately after the election to ensure of whom have not remotely started thinking about the we have a way forward for the following election? election yet, and to give them the opportunity to hear from the leaders of the political parties. To reject that Greg Clark: This will be a matter for the next Parliament, opportunity would be to show a disregard for the and the Government have not taken a view to that British public, who have made it clear that they want extent—and, speaking for the Government, I think it is these debates to happen. right for me to record that. No doubt, however, having On this side of the House, we want these debates to raised the debate this side of the election, if the Members happen. We have said that the broadcasters should of the hon. Gentleman’s party are returned after the make proposals, and we have accepted their proposals election, they may well come back to it. The right hon. for three debates during the campaign. As my hon. Member for Belfast North said in his speech that if Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) just anyone should compel the party leaders to give an reminded us, the Leader of the Opposition wants to account of themselves, it should be in this House by debate the issues head to head with the Prime Minister. Mr Speaker, not by an unelected quango. This is, thank Realistically, there are only two leaders who could be goodness, a parliamentary democracy. We do not have a Prime Minister after this general election, and the country presidential system, although if it was the presidential should have the opportunity to see them debate head to system of the United States of America, it could be that head, and the broadcasters are proposing that there the Leader of the Opposition will be spending more should be such a debate, alongside two others. That is time in the USA with his brother before long. Before why the Leader of the Opposition has said, to use his that, however, let us give him one last chance through much quoted term, he will debate the Prime Minister 317 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 318 any time, any place anywhere. Of course, regardless of leaders. The broadcasters have proposed a head-to-head who is in power, we might expect the Leader of the debate as the third of three debates and we think that Opposition to be bullish. that makes sense. We accept that proposal.

Greg Clark: Does that offer extend to appearing in Dr Huppert: I absolutely understand why the hon. the week commencing 23 March? Gentleman would like to return to two-party politics, with the two parties that get a larger share of MPs than Stephen Twigg: If that is the proposal that comes their share of the vote. I understand why that is in his forward and is supported by other parties, but not as interests, but is he saying that his leader is not prepared the only debate. What the right hon. Gentleman and the to debate with the leader of my party head to head? Prime Minister are proposing is an election debate before the campaign has even started. As the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) and my hon. Friend Stephen Twigg: I am not saying that at all. I am the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham saying that we are prepared to have a debate with not Stringer) have said in this debate, party manifestos will only the leader of the hon. Gentleman’s party but the not even have been published in that week. If the leaders of a number of other parties. We accept the citizens of the country are going to have an opportunity proposals of the broadcasters. We want a head-to-head to question, and listen to, party leaders, that should debate with the leader of the Conservative party because happen after manifestos have been published. there are two main parties in this country that poll consistently higher than the other parties, and nobody Greg Clark: As the hon. Gentleman said, part of the is seriously arguing that there is a prospect of anyone Leader of the Opposition’s phrase was “any time”, but other than the current Prime Minister or the leader of the hon. Gentleman is now saying that there is a certain the Labour party being Prime Minister after 7 May. If time before the election that is not acceptable. How the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) wants does he reconcile that with the commitment to debate to intervene on me to say that there is a serious prospect any time, any place, anywhere? Why not the week of the Deputy Prime Minister moving into No. 10 on commencing 23 March? 8 May, I will give way to him one more time.

Stephen Twigg: Because we do not believe these are Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman is being very generous decisions to be cooked up between the party leaders. in giving way. It is very hard to tell what will happen. I They should not be being made by the party politicians. understand that he would be concerned, given the They should be taken away from them. The broadcasters performance by my leader in the three-way debates last have proposed three debates, two with seven parties and time, but it is a great shame that his leader seems to be one a head-to-head debate, and we have accepted those too scared to take part in such a head-to-head debate. proposals. Why can the Conservative party and the Maybe we should have three head-to-head debates: one Prime Minister not accept those proposals? Does the between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Minister want me to give way to him so he can tell us Opposition; one between the Prime Minister and the why they are so reluctant to accept a head-to-head Deputy Prime Minister; and one between the Deputy debate? Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. That could be a fascinating series of debates for the public. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD) rose—

Stephen Twigg: If not, I give way to the hon. Member Stephen Twigg: If the broadcasters come forward for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). with such a proposal, we will of course take it seriously.

Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman is making a strong Dr McCrea: Bearing in mind the shambolic nature of case as to why we need to have debates, and I share his the proposals from the BBC, does the hon. Gentleman characterisation of the Prime Minister as a bit too acknowledge that there are Members in this House who scared to want to be properly involved, but why was have no confidence whatever in the BBC or in the other neither his leader nor the Prime Minister prepared to broadcasters that are arranging the debates? take part in debates before the European elections? They both turned down invitations to debate with the leader of my party and the leader of the UK Independence Stephen Twigg: I listened carefully to the right hon. party. If the Prime Minister continues to refuse to show Member for Belfast North when he opened the debate up, is the Leader of the Opposition prepared to debate today, and I entirely understand the concerns that he with the Deputy Prime Minister, leader of my party, or raised. We certainly do not see the case for treating is he too scared to have that head-to-head debate? Northern Ireland any differently from Scotland or Wales. However, we strongly believe that it is for the broadcasters, Stephen Twigg: The reality is that the two people who not the politicians, to determine the nature of the may become Prime Minister after this election are the debates. Even at this late stage, we hope that agreement leader of my party and the current Prime Minister. I can be reached. very much doubt that the Deputy Prime Minister, even Before I took those interventions, I was quoting my in his most wildly optimistic moments, is expecting to right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. It form a Liberal Democrat-led coalition or majority could of course be said that parties in opposition will be Government after this election. bullish about these matters. Five years ago, when the We want a debate between Labour and the Conservatives. current Prime Minister was Leader of the Opposition, Two of the debates proposed by the broadcasters would he said: include the Liberal Democrat leader and other party “I absolutely believe in these debates and think they are great”. 319 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 320

[Stephen Twigg] increased accountability of the Prime Minister and other party leaders. In our system, such reforms would He agreed with us, saying: be welcome. “I think it is great we are having these debates and I hope they go some way to restoring the faith and trust into our politics Greg Clark: I am fascinated by the hon. Gentleman’s because we badly need that once again in this country”. proposal. Will he tell me whether it would appear in the I agree. In 2010, the then Leader of the Opposition was first Queen’s Speech of a Labour Government? Would exasperated by any suggestion that the debates would it be such a priority for the running of the country that not happen, saying: it would appear in a Labour Government’s first legislative “I’ve always wanted these debates to happen. I mean, they programme? happen in every country. They even happen in Mongolia, for heaven’s sake, and it’s part of the modern age that we should be Stephen Twigg: As the Minister well knows, neither in.” he nor I can indicate what would be in either of our Even as recently as last year, when he was no longer party’s Queen’s Speeches at any stage. We have fixed-term Leader of the Opposition but Prime Minister, he said: five-year Parliaments, so I am not going to comment on “I’ve just always believed that these need to happen. It’s good the timing. However, we welcome the opportunity to for democracy. It’s good to see”; debate that important reform, and I hope that he will and only five weeks ago, he said: engage in a serious debate on it. “I want to go and debate”. The Prime Minister’s politics tutor at university, Vernon Bogdanor, has welcomed our proposal, saying that But when push comes to shove, the Prime Minister is running scared. “the public are entitled to see how party leaders perform in debate, and also how the Prime Minister and alternative Prime We heard from the Minister today that the Conservatives Minister perform.” want an election debate before the election campaign A Prime Minister, of whatever party, should not be able and before there are any party manifestos for the party to duck debates and thereby potentially cancel them for leaders to be interrogated on. The Minister also talked everyone. If a party representative refused to appear on about Prime Minister’s questions being the forum for BBC “Question Time” on a Thursday night, the show debate. The current Prime Minister used to argue that would go on. These debates are important for the Prime Minister’s Question Time was not a substitute for credibility of this election. How can the Prime Minister, proper television debates, but he is now attempting to as leader of his party, look the British public in the eye, use it as his way out. We know what happens at Prime having been so overt in his support of debates, when he Minister’s questions: the Leader of the Opposition and is now running away from them? Why should he have a other MPs ask a lot of questions and the Prime Minister veto on the opportunity for the public to hear from does not answer them. The idea that that is a debate other party leaders? that could be a substitute for a forum in which party manifestos could be held to account is unacceptable. Julie Hilling: Does my hon. Friend not think that it is Has the Prime Minister lost his nerve, or has Lynton actually slightly worse than that? The Prime Minister is Crosby lost the Prime Minister’s nerve for him? This is saying he will debate, but he is not saying he will debate perhaps typical of this Prime Minister. He used to hug a head to head. He is trying to bamboozle people by husky and clamour for the green vote. That has gone. saying he will take part in that debate. He is just saying He used to talk about compassionate conservatism, but things that are not really true. that has gone. He used to talk about a new way of doing politics, including the importance of TV debates, but now he is even turning his back on that, too. Stephen Twigg: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Our right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition We cannot allow future Prime Ministers, of whatever has been quoted as saying that he will meet the Prime party, to play games with these TV debates, and I Minister “any time, any place, anywhere”, and we have welcome what the right hon. Member for Belfast North accepted the broadcasters’ proposals for three separate said about creating a set of rules. We have said that a debates— Labour Government would put the requirement to stage a fair and impartial leaders debate on a statutory footing. The Minister has done his best to make that Greg Clark: What about 23 March? proposal sound incredibly Orwellian and statist, but it would simply introduce a system that would work along Stephen Twigg: As the Minister confirms from a similar lines to the current party political broadcasts, sedentary position, the Prime Minister will debate only with the Broadcasters’ Liaison Group having the power with the other leaders, and only in a week before the to come up with proposals for the debates. election campaign, before the manifestos have been In keeping with what the right hon. Gentleman said published. This Prime Minister is not prepared to debate earlier, we believe that we shall have an opportunity in head to head with the Leader of the Opposition after the next Parliament to get this right and to learn from the manifestos have been published. That says a great what has happened during this Parliament in the lead-up deal about this Prime Minister and about the Conservative to the election campaign. We suggest a deadline of party’s approach to this election. 2017, midway through the next Parliament, for the We on this side of the House are keen to make this proposed changes to be put in place. That would give happen, and we believe that there is still time for the everyone plenty of time to plan for the debates before Prime Minister to join us in accepting the proposal the subsequent general election. This would be an important from the broadcasters. For the sake of democratic constitutional change, introducing a mechanism for the engagement, I really hope that he and his advisers will 321 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 322 reconsider their opposition to these debates. Before the This is indefensible and unjustifiable and it cannot be last election, the leader of the Conservative party—now promoted, explained or rationalised by any sensible the Prime Minister—said: individual. “I think people have the right to look at the people putting Given that my throat is about to give up, I shall call it themselves forward as the next Prime Minister” aday. in TV debates. That could not be clearer. We agree. The public agree. Let’s get on with it. 2.3 pm 1.59 pm Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I rise to support the motion, but I do so with some reservation, because Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): although I come from a part of the UK where we are To paraphrase the words of the famous comedy duo well accustomed to talks about talks, I suspect that with Laurel and Hardy, this is another fine mess they’ve debates about debates there is a similar relationship gotten us into. I refer of course to the broadcasters. between public interest in the debate and the amount of We have heard a series of proposals, and a series of time we spend debating the debate—an inversely responses to those proposals, and it seems to me—and, proportional one. The timing of this debate is particularly apparently, to virtually the entire population of the unfortunate, as it feels slightly self-indulgent for us to be United Kingdom—that we have a thoroughly debating who is able to debate the issues instead of unsatisfactory, unfair outcome as things stand at the using parliamentary time actually to debate some issues moment. And who knows what tomorrow may bring? that matter to our constituents and which would make a Initially, the broadcasters seemed to be looking favourably difference. As Northern Ireland MPs, we get a relatively at what would have been a fair debate: the potential limited amount of time on the Floor of the House to be Prime Minister coming from the largest party in the able to engage in those issues where Westminster has a opinion polls going head to head with the other potential direct impact on our constituencies. So it is unfortunate Prime Minister from the second largest party. For a that we end up today in something that could be viewed national debate, most people would have said, “Let the by the public as slightly self-indulgent: a discussion debate continue.” about how parties will engage with each other in the The broadcasters moved from that position to include run-up to elections. a range of smaller parties, but the threshold appeared arbitrary in that they included some parties but not Mr Donaldson: Will the hon. Lady give way? others. That was particularly the case when they included the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru. The Naomi Long: I want to move on, because I have said defence I read after they had reached that conclusion my piece on that. was that Plaid Cymru and the SNP were facing the How do the public view this? They will be weary of other parties in their respective jurisdictions, whereas, the debate around it. However, I did rise to support the for example, the Democratic Unionist party in Northern motion; although I am not sure this is the right time or Ireland was not. What the broadcasters did not deal place, on this occasion I am not disagreeing with the with was the fact that in the national debate that they proposal made. I believe there is an inherent unfairness are currently proposing, the UK Independence party, in the way this whole situation has been handled. I agree the Greens and the Conservative party will all be facing with the motion because it is not about individual us in Northern Ireland, yet we will not have the opportunity political parties or the amount of air time they get in to respond to issues that our competition will be putting the run-up to the election; it is about allowing members forward in that debate. The current position is therefore of the public to engage with the issues and to hear what totally untenable. those people who may beyond this general election have We are seeking a resolution for the upcoming and an influence on the formation of a Government—that immediate election. It needs to be reached within the could be any of us who stand for election to this next day or two, so that the parties can debate adequately place—would do in terms of the kind of Government and, more importantly, so that the general public can who would be subsequently formed. So it is important understand what the issues are, make their minds up that every party is treated fairly and equally. about those putting forward the positions and determine Previously, two rationales were given to us as to why whether how they intend to vote is affected. In the Northern Ireland was not included in those debates. longer term—this is why we have worded the motion in The first was about the threshold at which parties the way we have—there must be no repeat of this “validly” could argue their position for being in those Horlicks. That is what it is: a complete Horlicks. I have debates. The Liberal Democrats made a strong case on heard no reporter from any broadcaster seek to defend the last occasion, managing to find a way to be part of it, because it is indefensible. the debate, even though their prospects of providing a Beyond this election we must get some independent Prime Minister were very limited. That was the first mechanism that will use a fair rationale for arriving at a point at which the normal rationale, about the parties debate. It could be a series of debates, one featuring the that would provide a Prime Minister, started to break two potential Prime Ministers and then another debate down. among a series of parties, either including regional We then moved beyond that to a basis of opinion parties or excluding them. You cannot have it both polls and of elections of a different kind, whereby ways. You cannot say, “We want a head to head. Then UKIP should also be included because of its performance. we are going to open up a regional debate, but we are Previously, however, elections of a similar kind had only going to include some regions. We are going to been used as the basis for making those judgments. So include Scotland and Wales, but not Northern Ireland.” the comparison between a European election, where 323 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 324

[Naomi Long] scale, and the challenges that could hold serious sway if they were taken up by a number of parties, my fear is UKIP’s policies perhaps have a particular resonance, that we will end up risking the situation. I say that not and a general election, where wider policy may play a because of the debate we are having about the debate, greater role in people making their decisions, would not but because of the unwieldiness of any subsequent have been taken into account in the same way. The panel. The number of people on the panel could outstrip inclusion of UKIP in the debate suddenly gave us the number of people who actually want to watch the another crack in the façade of the rationale as to why debate. The biggest crime of all would be to disengage people were or were not included in the debate. the public further. We need to stop debating the debate We moved on from that to discussing the political and to get a clear rationale, which must be fair and challenge around the debates, then demanding that the apply to all parts of the UK and not disadvantage those Green party ought to be included because it also ran in whom we represent. a national way across all of Great Britain. Of course that relates to the second logical reason for the exclusion 2.11 pm of the Northern Ireland parties, and indeed the Scottish and Welsh parties: they did not run candidates in every Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I am delighted to part of the UK. follow the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), not least because, on this occasion, I agreed with everything Mr Donaldson: It may have been a slip, but I am sure she said. When I say that it is important that we do not the hon. Lady did not mean to say that when we talk on spend too much time here today debating this issue, I a national basis, we talk about Great Britain—the nation am not criticising the DUP for its choice of debate. is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Someone from the media said to me, “Is it not a bit Ireland. much that Parliament is spending time debating this?” I made the point that the media are spending more time Naomi Long: I think my views on that are well debating the matter, in between covering Jeremy Clarkson known. I did make the point that the Greens ran in all and other matters. It is a bit rich for them to criticise us parts of the UK, so when I refer to the UK, that is what for taking a bit of time in Parliament to debate the I am referring to. issue. The logical reason being given was that our Northern Ireland parties did not run candidates throughout the As other Members have said, the broadcasters have UK—that was the second rationale for our being excluded. made a hames of the whole situation. They thought However, when we remove that second rationale, no that they had to scramble together an offer, that a argument can be made for why a party that has one proposal on high from them would have to be accepted Member elected to this House in this Parliament—the and that everyone would have to comply. Then they Green party—ought to be in those debates, yet other found themselves being played into different corners by parties that have eight Members, three Members and the Prime Minister. It is the Prime Minister who has one Member are excluded. There is no logic to that. created this situation with the broadcasters. There is no rationale, and that is because this is all being Last week, headlines said that Downing street had done on an ad-hoc basis. issued its final offer to the broadcasters, which did not I believe that the logical reason was always there; look good. We are talking here about the office of the there was a clear and concise reason and rationale for Prime Minister. It would have been one thing for how the debates were structured, one that was clearly Conservative party headquarters to say it, but it was understood by the public, and clearly understood and Downing street, and the letter came from the director of respected by the political parties. However, when that communications, who is on the civil service payroll. The was abandoned in favour of a kind of populism and broadcasters should not have allowed themselves to be things were thrown open, we opened a Pandora’s box. drawn into such a situation. Wherever the line is now drawn it will feel unfair and This is an unseemly mess. The way in which this arbitrary to some party in Parliament. Plaid Cymru debacle is playing out does no one any credit—the could be included in the debate but the Social Democratic parties, the political process and the broadcast journalists. and Labour party excluded. Why would that be the As the hon. Lady said, I do not think that any of us case? It makes no logical sense whatsoever. would have huffed or grumbled if a clear decision had The problem is that, having opened Pandora’s box, been made that the main focus of the debate should be no one seems clear about how to close it again. Let me between the parties and the party leaders who are make it clear that I am not standing here to make a hoping to lead or to form a Government. That would pitch to be included in the national debate, or for the have been clear. Even the broadcasters seem to accept SDLP, the DUP, Plaid Cymru, or the SNP to be included that one of the debates should have that sort of bespoke in the debate. I say that not because I want to see any of focus, so no one contends with that principle. Once they our parties excluded, but because if the purpose of started drawing in others, they took inclusion to the these debates is to engage the public and to make them point of ridicule. By assembling such a large number, interested in what the next Government and the they will create the effect of a game show. The only leadership—particularly the Prime Minister—might look problem is that the viewers will not have the joy of like, we will end up with a panel that is so large and seeing people eliminated or have the opportunity to unwieldy that any real debate, exchange of ideas, or vote people off as the exercise progresses. Instead, people engagement will be absolutely stifled. will switch off. What we need to do is return to a situation in which It is nonsense to have a studio-centred Tower of the panel size is reasonable and in which the rationale is Babel presented as some sort of rational political debate. clear, legal and justifiable. Given the mess, the time But we must remember that that idea came not just 325 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 326 from the broadcasters, but from the Prime Minister. I frame a debate sensibly, and a range of wider broadcast never saw him as someone who was particularly concerned opportunities could be used to allow fair access for about the inclusion of all parties, even the small regional parties of all scales. parties. We are seeing a whole new side to the Prime There are parties in Northern Ireland saying that, Minister. Certainly, he seems to be keener to hear because of their size and standing in Northern Ireland, people in debates than he is to hear people in this they should be included in just the same way as parties Chamber. This is a whole new dimension to him. standing in Wales and Scotland, but some of them will Why does the Prime Minister insist that we need this not even be standing in all constituencies in Northern wide-level debate? I know that TV screens are getting Ireland, because there will probably be electoral pacts bigger and wider, but they are not wide enough to take a and other factors. It is a bit much for parties that might pan shot of the debate that the broadcasters and the not even stand in all Northern Ireland constituencies to Prime Minister seem to want. It is all about the clear insist on equal rights in a TV debate with parties that electoral strategy of the Conservative party. The Prime are hoping to form the next Government. Minister wants to create this idea that the only alternative The fact that we have all been sucked into these to a single-party Tory Government is the Leader of the arguments goes back to the false calls that were initially Opposition and an absolute ragbag coalition of a rabble made by the broadcasters. The right hon. Member for of other parties. He wants that image around the debate Belfast North (Mr Dodds) was right to criticise the precisely because it suits the Conservative election message. broadcasters for scrambling their original proposals, Some Members have said that Lord Grade’s intervention and for doing so without sounding out parties or journalists, was a neutral one, coming as it did from someone who even those available to them within their own organisations. has experience in so many different media outlets. However, That is what created the problem. We have to find a his intervention is informed entirely by the fact that he more sensible way of doing this. Let us be clear that is on side with the Prime Minister’s agenda to use these politics also lies behind the debacle we now have, because debates to create a picture that reinforces a basic Tory that debacle suits one party and one party leader, and message in this election campaign. The intervention we should not pretend otherwise. was entirely biased. The broadcasters have allowed themselves to be played into this situation. 2.21 pm I agree with the salient point in the DUP motion that, Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I rather than having these confused and stylised arguments was amused by the comment made by the hon. Member and rumours between the broadcasters and the politicians, for Foyle (Mark Durkan) about the need for wide-screen all of whom will be accused of vying for their own TVs if all parties take part in the debates. The hon. interests and advantage, there should be some credible Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) said from a and neutral authority, whether it is set up specifically sedentary position that it would be a bit like the game for the purpose or a hybrid between the Electoral show “Take Me Out”. I am not sure that I would want Commission and Ofcom, to make judgments about to take part if Sinn Fein was involved, because “take me how the debate should be framed. There will be other out” might have slightly different connotations. Perhaps opportunities for wide diversity in debates. Many of “Blankety Blank” would be a more appropriate name, us—even those who were not in Scotland—were absolutely given that Sinn Fein Members do not take their seats in transfixed and excited by the referendum debates in this House. That is a serious point that it is worth Scotland. Those debates took many forms, the most making in this debate. powerful of which were not necessarily those that included the party leaders. Some had strong inputs from studio In Northern Ireland we have traditionally had debates audiences, which included young people. Just as there with the local political parties that participate in elections, was a diversity in the type and range of debate in and that has worked reasonably well. I do not think that Scotland, so too should there be here. The broadcasters the DUP would have raised this matter today had it not and the Prime Minister should not pretend that the only been for the proposal, particularly from the BBC, to way of including the small parties is in the big head-to-head include parties that contest seats only in certain regions debates. That is why our party is not joining the queue of the United Kingdom—the Scottish National party to say, “Oh, no, it has to be us, too. If you are going to and Plaid Cymru. An important principle was breached: have Plaid Cymru, you must include us.” that the main debate was about the national scene. I think that there is a lot to be said for the idea that the On the point about which other parties to include, debate should be between the two leaders who are most perhaps the broadcasters should have come up with likely to be Prime Minister and to lead the next Government some rationale around the number of candidates who of the United Kingdom. were standing. Perhaps they would have been able to If that debate is extended, especially to include parties draw the line in that way. If parties are putting up that contest seats only in certain regions, then there is candidates right across the UK and backing them up no valid reason to exclude Northern Ireland. If that with a campaign effort, perhaps some regard should be occurs, the question, as others have asked, is this: why, given to that, as well as to factors such as opinion polls then, would only one party from Northern Ireland be and seats in Parliament, when considering who is eligible included? If we look at the political parties represented to take part in the debate. We were told at the time of in this House, we see that the Democratic Unionist the recent by-elections that the results could change party is the fourth party in Parliament, and four of the who would have to be in a TV debate. I found it hard to parties that it is now proposed should take part in believe that a single by-election result could have that the national debate have fewer seats in this House than effect, but apparently that was what was understood in the Democratic Unionist party. That puts us in a unique media circles. Other rationales could credibly be used to position with regard to the national issue. 327 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 328

[Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson] are relevant on the national stage, and they are issues that are important to the people we represent. This My second point is that everyone out there who is afternoon we will debate another motion that is of commenting on the likely outcome of the general national significance as well as of importance to our election—including, most recently, Lord Mandelson—is constituents in Northern Ireland. saying that a hung Parliament is inevitable. Therefore, We are all concerned about declining participation in with regard to the complexities of the next Parliament the democratic process in the United Kingdom, with and the question of who will form the next Government, voter turnouts and membership of political parties there is a strong possibility that the Democratic Unionist going down, so this is an important issue. In fact, I party will be a factor in determining who forms the next would argue that few issues are more important than Government. There is no prospect of Sinn Fein being a encouraging people to respect and participate in the factor, since its Members do not take their seats. Therefore, democratic process, because that is about democracy their participation in debates at the national level is, itself. Indeed, one of the two gentlemen who may well frankly, irrelevant. I mean no disrespect whatsoever to be the next Prime Minister seemed to think the question the SDLP, but I do not think that it will play a major of TV debates important enough to devote the entire role in determining who forms the next Government, exchange in Prime Minister’s questions to it. since it is already aligned to one of the parties that could form the next Government. Therefore, with regard to the national debate and the Ms Ritchie: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree public interest, it could reasonably be argued that the that all this could create a certain ennui or weariness Democratic Unionist party is the only party from Northern among those in the wider body politic, who are interested Ireland whose policies would be of interest to voters in what we, Parliament and Government could do for from other parts of the United Kingdom, since they them in delivering on the issues that matter for them might have a bearing on who forms the next Government. rather than wider issues about debates and who should take part in them? That is what people are saying to me. Mr Dodds: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising that point about Sinn Fein, because one of the Mr Donaldson: I must say that most of my constituents broadcasters’ arguments for including the SNP and do not mention the TV debates to me. Nevertheless, I Plaid Cymru was that they will compete against parties repeat the important point that someone mentioned that could form the next Government and so could play earlier: the TV debates had a massive audience the last a role in the formation of the next Government. However, time round. We should all welcome that, and it is why it they also say that if they go to Northern Ireland, they is important that we get this right. will have to include all the parties, especially Sinn Fein, The formula that we should be looking at, at the because they get votes and have seats. The reality is that national level, is a debate involving the two leaders who there is absolutely no point in listeners hearing from are most likely to be the Head of the next Government Sinn Fein Members because they do not come to of the United Kingdom. We in Northern Ireland are Parliament, they will not be voting in Parliament and happy to participate in debates among the political they have no role to play in Parliament, and that is of parties at the regional level, but we are not happy with their own volition. It is clearly a nonsense argument being excluded on the basis that Northern Ireland is the that the broadcasters are using. only region not to be represented in the proposals.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I have been very generous, but we must try to have Dr McCrea: Does my right hon. Friend accept that it shorter interventions. would be wrong for elected representatives in this House to fail to speak up for Northern Ireland, bearing in mind that they ought to be heard across the United Mr Donaldson: My right hon. Friend makes a valid Kingdom if the Democratic Unionist party were indeed point. It is interesting, is it not, that Sinn Fein declares able to assist any Government in governing the United itself to be the strong supporter of Irish freedom and Kingdom in future? independence yet wants to take part in a national debate that is relevant to the United Kingdom. The very same party is acting in a way that suggests it wants to hand Mr Donaldson: I agree. I have great respect for the back all the powers we have in our devolved Assembly hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), but I have and Executive to the national Parliament of the United to say that my father, who is one of her constituents, Kingdom, and it really raises a question about their would be very upset if he lost out on the opportunity to credentials as Irish republicans that they are in favour see these debates in the general election, because he is of returning to direct rule, rather than honouring the an avid watcher of political affairs. agreements that have been reached and are moving I hope that these matters can be resolved. Our motion forward—but I digress. is an attempt to push the issue forward and to get some The hon. Member for Belfast East said that we common sense applied. I hope that common sense will should not really be debating this issue because there be the outcome. The outcome that must not occur is are more important matters to debate. I simply point one that excludes Northern Ireland but includes other out that on every opportunity that the Democratic regions where political parties are represented that do Unionist party has had, as the fourth party in this not participate or put up candidates in other parts of Parliament, to discuss matters—this is relevant to the the United Kingdom. It would be deeply unfair if wider issue—we have sought to focus not on issues that Northern Ireland were the only region that was excluded are relevant only to Northern Ireland, but on issues that on that basis. 329 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 330

2.32 pm are, I think there is a general desire among the public to Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I emphasise at hear debates on the issues. However, those debates have the outset points that other hon. Members have made. to be in a fair and properly structured format. The We brought this debate forward not because we have unbecoming shambles that we now have brings politics some selfish party political interest, but because we in this country further into disrepute. believe that if there are to be debates about the shape of We have put forward an unassailable case. We would future government, and the input that parties will have, prefer a much tighter arrangement for the debate, but if or potentially have, into future government, including it is to be opened up—I add the qualifications put in Northern Ireland, then the public should have the forward by Members from the Alliance party and the widest possible information about who will be involved SDLP, and ourselves—there are absolutely no grounds and the ideas that will be put forward. for saying that the fourth largest party in this House, We recognise that even in a hung Parliament our role which stands only in a regional capacity but is no may be quite marginal, so we would have been quite different in that regard from Plaid Cymru or the SNP, happy for the parties that are most likely to form the and has more members than many of the smaller parties Government of the United Kingdom to have their that will be included, and could have the same influence leaders debating the issues before the general public. We as all those parties, should be excluded. That is especially are not as arrogant as the BBC or some of the other the case because, as my right hon. Friend the Member broadcasters. We do not believe that we have some for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) said, it is not as though God-given right to be included just because we happen we operate in some kind of bubble in Northern Ireland to have Members in the House of Commons or are and will not be competing against some of the parties putting people forward to be Members. However, once that are represented on these Benches and that will be the rules were manipulated, changed, twisted and warped participating in the debates. to include some smaller parties, but not all, we had a I will have a UKIP opponent and perhaps even have a right to make the demands that we have made to the Conservative opponent and, by proxy, I will have opposition BBC and the other broadcasters and that are included from Labour in the form of the SDLP and from the in this motion. Liberal Democrats in the form of the Alliance party. I do not believe that the debate about the debates has When I say “opposition” from competitors I mean it in done politics any good at all. Despite what has been the loosest possible sense of the word, because such said, I do not see this as a problem that was made by opponents will be somewhere down at the bottom of politicians, although some people would happily point the pile when it comes to counting the votes. I will also the finger at the Prime Minister or the Leader of the have an opponent from the Greens, but given the fact Opposition. The problem was primarily caused by the that the Greens in Northern Ireland want to prevent the broadcasters. We probably all have our own interpretations good constituents of East Antrim from eating bacon of what their motives were. Was it simply that they butties on a Monday in order to save the planet or from believed that they could imperiously wave their fingers seeing adverts for flying to the Mediterranean because at the politicians of this country and tell them, “We will they will put too much CO2 into the air— give you broadcasting time. Here are the conditions on Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I which you will have it, and if you do not obey the rules think we will both agree that this is not about debates that we have set down, we will punish you”? Another between the party leaders, and I am sure the hon. interpretation is that they simply wanted to sex up the Gentleman wants to get back to that. broadcasts, and saw that perhaps a good head-to-head row between the Prime Minister and the leader of Sammy Wilson: The point I am making— UKIP would do the job. Alternatively, given the left-wing bias of the BBC—I have sympathy with the views of Mr Deputy Speaker: Never mind what point you are some Government Members on this—perhaps it mainly making. The point is that you are offbeat. Get back to wanted someone present who would take on the Prime the debates. Minister. I have a great belief in the left-wing bias of the Sammy Wilson: I am trying to explain my point, Mr BBC. Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, were you to give me Deputy Speaker. My point is that the inclusion or time—I know that you will not, because I would be non-inclusion of the Greens in the debates will not diverging from the motion—I could wax eloquent on make any difference because their policies are so outlandish that matter for a long time, but I will not do so. that nobody will vote for them anyway. However, they Ian Paisley: Does my hon. Friend agree that the have been included, and given that they are a small left-leaning bias of the BBC with regard to these broadcasts party and much smaller than our party, our argument is again opens up the debate that should properly take that we ought to be included as well. place about whether we should be paying licence fees The problem, which has of course been created by for such an organisation to exist? the broadcasters, is that if we end up with seven parties, as we now have, or eight or nine parties, we will not have Sammy Wilson: I will desist from getting into a a debate—or even a beauty contest given some of the discussion about licence fees, the payment of licence people involved. We will have a shambles or, as the hon. fees, the non-payment of licence fees, the compulsory Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, a Tower of payment of licence fees, or whatever. That is another Babel—utter confusion—with points not being properly favourite topic of mine, but it is not quite relevant to the debated. motion before us. The problem created by the broadcasters is one reason Whatever the reason for it, we now have an unbecoming why we believe that there should be some attempt, even shambles that is not doing politics any good. Despite at this late stage, to resolve the issue either by accepting what is said about how rubbishy people think politicians the inclusion of all parties with a sizeable representation 331 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 332

[Sammy Wilson] of much of the electorate about manifesto commitments. We only have to look at the Liberal Democrats to think and candidates standing nationally and regionally, or of how they made a major commitment, but moved by finding some way to narrow the number down. We away from it very quickly. A debate on the basis of cannot have the worst of all worlds, which is including manifestos may not be all that productive. some and excluding the others. I can see the argument for having a debate in the Another part of the motion that has generated a fair period up to an election without its sucking the lifeblood range of comment is about how we proceed. The proposal out of the election campaign. As the hon. Member for for an independent body to make an adjudication may Foyle pointed out, there are many formats for debating well come too late for this election, but that is not to say the issues. He mentioned the variety of formats used that it should not be considered for future elections; during the Scottish referendum campaign. Whether the otherwise this shambles might be repeated. On the one broadcasts are straightforward head-to-heads between hand, there are the politicians who have their agendas, the two main protagonists, panel discussions, debates but on the other hand, the broadcasters have their own involving audience participation or a range of other agendas, as we now know. The broadcasters are no less things, they can be done in many ways, so we are not all guilty in all this than those that some of the public may that worried about their timing. see as self-seeking politicians. We therefore believe in I must say that I can see the Prime Minister’s point the creation of an independent body. that a shambolic debate, especially with seven different The Minister of State, Cabinet Office, the right hon. parties all fighting and squabbling for a bit of time in a Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), asked how one-and-a-half hour debate, might not be all that edifying independent the body should be and how it could be in an election campaign and might distract from many made independent. Such an idea has already been rejected of the other good ways in which parties and individual in the House of Lords, but only because greater faith candidates seek to communicate with the electorate. was placed in the broadcasters than should ever have One issue that the independent commission must sort been placed in them. Now we have seen that they are out—the hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long) incapable of the degree of independence and objectivity and for Foyle made this point—is the basis on which we required to ensure fair, reasonable and rational debate make judgments about the parties, which is where this on the issues, we must look again at having an independent debate started. Should a television debate include all body.It should be no more difficult to create an independent parties, those that reach a certain threshold of Members body to oversee broadcasts during elections than to of the House, or those putting forward a certain number have an independent body for any other job for which of candidates? Do those candidates have to stand nationally? such a body is required. The Minister’s point about how Will the debates be based on the results of the last we ensure the body’s independence should not cause us Westminster elections or the latest opinion polls? If we a great deal of concern. are to have a fair framework those issues must be Another issue that hon. Members have raised is whether considered by an independent body. whatever is decided should be mandatory, as the Labour In conclusion, we cannot afford in this election to party wants, or voluntary. Our view is that the job of have the same shambles as we experienced in the previous the independent body should be to set the rules. If the one: it is not becoming to democracy or to the parties rules are set fairly, there will be no need for coercion. involved, and it is distracting. I suspect that the debate People will be able to sign up to the conditions attached about the debate will be more interesting than the to the rules, so there should not be any unseemly rows. debate itself, especially if we end up with a seven-party At the end of the day, I must say that I am not attracted squabble on TV, or a debate where the main issue is, to making participation mandatory. Even once the rules “Why is the Prime Minister not sitting there and why is have been set and the parties have agreed to them, there there an empty chair?”, or whatever. should still be a right and an opportunity for the Sometimes there are things that we as politicians can parties—they will have to explain the circumstances to be blamed for, but I do not believe that the finger of the electorate—to decide whether to participate. blame in this instance can be primarily pointed at us. It is unfair that all the attention is directed on the Prime Stephen Twigg: Let me make it clear that I entirely Minister, because he had a reasonable case for saying share the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments. We are suggesting that the BBC was setting rules that placed him at an not that participation in the debates should be mandatory, unfair advantage, so why should he co-operate in its but that it should be mandatory for the debates to be game. If we are to avoid that in future, some of the held. proposals in this motion should be adhered to, followed through and worked on, so that even if we do not sort it Sammy Wilson: Weagreethat,oncewehaveaframework out this time, we can sort it out for the next election. for the debates, people should have the right to decide whether to participate in them. 2.52 pm The final issue is whether the debates should be held before or during the election campaign. I do not like the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education argument that if the manifestos have not been published, (Mr Sam Gyimah): We have, once again, a debate about there could not be a debate. What do debates consist of? debates, and as the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, Very often, they are as much about looking back as my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells about looking forward. They are about looking at the (Greg Clark), said at the outset, these things matter in a parties’ record in the past, because that is sometimes a democracy. Debate and discussion is how we arrive at far better way of judging what they will do in the future consensus in a democracy, and how we inform the than what might be in their manifestos, given the cynicism electorate about our respective views as parties and 333 General Election Television Debates11 MARCH 2015 General Election Television Debates 334 what we plan to do. It is important to have this debate who is not. The right hon. Member for Belfast North today, although I recognise the comments by the hon. (Mr Dodds) made a powerful and eloquent case, forensically Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) that in some analysing that issue. He spoke about the BBC’s handling quarters members of the public will be wondering why of the matter, and the questions that it raises about the we have been talking about this issue for so long. BBC’s impartiality. His central point was that the BBC This is an important debate and it is surprising that, cannot pick and choose which parties matter for the 60 days from the general election, the main opposition election, and he rejected the idea that any broadcaster party in this House is more content talking about should do that. Three years ago the Prime Minister debates than about any other issue. What about the proposed that we should hold debates and that they deficit, the fantastic employment figures, the fact that should be as inclusive as possible, but that was disregarded. unemployment is down and wages are going up? Labour He also said that it would be helpful for the debates not is willing to talk not about those things but about a to be held in the short campaigning period, because we debate—[Interruption.] As the hon. Member for Liverpool, do not want them to be the only focus during the West Derby (Stephen Twigg) said from a sedentary campaign. The broadcasters rejected that out of hand, position, Labour did not initiate this debate today, but and as a result there has been a lot of discussion that the Leader of the Opposition chose to focus on the TV could have been avoided. debates in Prime Minister’s Question Time. He had the The Prime Minister did respond to the Leader of the opportunity to ask the Prime Minister six important Opposition saying that he would debate with my right questions, but he focused on that debate, which is hon. Friend “anytime, anywhere”, but it turns out that surprising. the Leader of the Opposition meant, “anytime, anywhere, I understand why Labour Members want the public but not the week commencing the 23rd”. to see more of the Leader of the Opposition before the election. I want that too. What is surprising, however, is Stephen Twigg: I am grateful to the Minister for the usual hue and cry that we have heard from the giving way. Let me be absolutely clear: it is anytime, any Labour party: “Let’s have legislation, legislation, legislation.” place, anywhere. Only two people can seriously be Prime My right hon. Friend was right to ask whether, if we Minister after the election, so we want that head-to-head make debates compulsory, we will make watching them debate. Why is the Prime Minister running scared of it? compulsory too. I dare say that Labour is staking a lot on having the Leader of the Opposition in the television Mr Gyimah: A key point that the hon. Gentleman debates. The understanding is that somehow after five made at the beginning of his speech today was that years in this House, and four hours of debating at voter turnout is low and we need to engage and involve Prime Minister’s Question Time, an hour in the TV the public. One of the biggest features of British politics studios will make the British public finally see him as a in this Parliament is the support going to the smaller future Prime Minister, but I think Labour is staking a parties. Why should not we have a debate that includes lot on that idea. those smaller parties? That was the Prime Minister’s focus. Stephen Twigg: Will the Minister give way? A point was also made about the timing of the debate and holding it before the short campaigning period. I Mr Gyimah: I have a short amount of time so I understand the concern that if so many parties are cannot take interventions. involved in the debate, as the hon. Member for Belfast All I am waiting for from Labour is a judge-led East said, it might resemble the television programme inquiry into the debates. The crux of Labour’s argument “Take Me Out”, but at least we would be giving the this afternoon—I will come on to the substance of the public a say and hearing from smaller parties, who debates in a moment—is that we need a head-to-head would be put on the spot about the policies they are debate, but the moment that idea was introduced we advocating. I believe that is as important as focusing on realised some of the problems with it. The hon. Member the policies of the main parties. for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) immediately asked, “Why I want to make a quick point on the BBC and don’t we have a head to head between the Deputy Prime impartiality, and on consultation with the DUP. There Minister and the Leader of the Opposition?” is no specific requirement for the BBC to consult, but it would be for the BBC Trust to judge whether, by not Stephen Twigg rose— consulting, editorial impartiality guidelines had been Mr Gyimah: I will carry on with my speech. The breached. It is worth putting that clearly on the record. important point, while we discuss a head to head, is to The DUP made a clear call. It wants an independent remember that we are a parliamentary democracy and body to be in charge. My right hon. Friend the Minister do not have a presidential system. People in this country of State, Cabinet Office raised a number of questions vote for a party, and the leader of the party that is able that need to be answered. How would it be established to form a Government becomes Prime Minister. For and funded? Which debates would it produce? Whom me, the emphasis on the head to head is somehow would it invite, and how would it stand up to challenge? misplaced, and the discussion about how the smaller How would it succeed in convening the parties, and how parties can be incorporated and involved in that TV would it secure the distribution of the debates among debate is important and powerful. broadcasters? It is an interesting suggestion, but it is The Democratic Unionist party has more seats than obviously not a matter for the Government. Those are four of the parties that it is proposed to include in the some of the questions that rightly need to be answered. seven-way debate, and more votes than one of them. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) talked That raises a question about the influence and power of about an unseemly mess that does not credit anyone. If broadcasters to decide who is involved in debates and the Prime Minister’s formula from three years ago had 335 General Election Television Debates 11 MARCH 2015 336

[Mr Gyimah] Cross-border Crime been followed, that unseemly mess could have been avoided. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is 3.3 pm no clear rationale for what the broadcasters advocate in Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I beg to terms of which parties are included and which are not. move, The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley That this House notes with concern the continued prevalence (Mr Donaldson) said that voter turnout makes the of serious organised criminal activity in Northern Ireland on a debates important. He made a powerful point that it is cross-border basis in relation to fuel smuggling, fuel laundering deeply unfair if Northern Ireland is excluded on that and the counterfeiting of consumer goods; recognises that this basis. has had a significant and detrimental impact on HM Treasury; regrets the lack of prosecutions in relation to this activity; and I always enjoy listening to the mellifluous tone of the calls on the Government to ensure greater co-operation between oratory of the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy HM Revenue and Customs, the National Crime Agency and the Wilson). He dwelt on the inconsistency of the approach PSNI so that this criminal activity can be eradicated. to the different parties and said that the problem was It is a great pleasure to move the motion tabled by my caused by the broadcasters. I was surprised by his right hon. and hon. Friends. suggestion of the Green party’s campaigning approach in East Antrim—it is stopping people eating bacon According to the Home Secretary, organised crime butties to save the planet. I believe that was a caricature costs the UK at least £24 billion a year. In Northern of Green party policy rather than its actual policy. Ireland, police assessments indicate that there are more than 140 organised criminal gangs in operation. We are The hon. Gentleman made an insightful comment all acutely aware of the audacious attempts by such that elections are as much about track record as about gangs to carry out all sorts of crimes, including the what the party promises for the future. For most voters, laundering and selling of illegal fuel, and the counterfeiting track record gives credibility to what a party promises of consumer goods. for the future. For that reason, it is possible to have debates before manifestos are pledged. In fact, we know Although the criminals respect neither borders nor where a lot of the main parties stand on some of the big victims in their illegal pursuits, Northern Ireland is issues, such as the deficit and the economy. We have unique within the United Kingdom in that it shares a debated those issues a number of times in the House. land border with a foreign country. The findings of a We can have debates before the short campaign. recent British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly report show that law enforcement agencies in both jurisdictions work This is obviously not a matter of Government policy. together; that illicit trade and smuggling are some of There have been a number of debates within today’s the largest challenges faced by cross-border agencies; wide-ranging discussion. Several different party views and that the number of border area fuel laundering were represented. That attests to the reasons why this is plants, and the number of filling stations selling illicit not an easy problem to address, but it was a worthwhile fuel, is alarming. The report called for a cross-border discussion. approach with a permanent multi-agency taskforce to Question put and agreed to. deal with illegal activity and to tackle tobacco fraud, Resolved, and for legal changes to prevent filling stations prosecuted That this House recognises the potential value of broadcast in connection with illegal fuel from reopening within general election debates between party leaders; notes however months of conviction. that neither the broadcasters nor politicians can escape the charge I echo the comments made by Fine Gael TD Patrick of self-interest in their organisation, and that they should best be left to an independent body to arrange; further notes that the O’Donovan when he spoke in a debate at the British-Irish broadcast debate formats proposed for 2015 have been inconsistently Parliamentary Assembly on the report. He said that and incompetently formulated so far; further notes that there authorities were turning a blind eye to illegal activity in exists a substantial danger as a result that these debates will now the border area, motivated by an “appeasement” process not happen; and believes that the point of any debates which do of replacing the cowardly butchery wing of the IRA happen must be to benefit those who watch them, not those who with the racketeering wing, in what has effectively been appear in them or broadcast them. considered a bandit area, which has helped to support claims that the Real IRA is the ninth richest terror group in the world. Fuel laundering is currently worth around £400 million a year in lost tax revenues in Great Britain, and £80 million in Northern Ireland, where the problem is particularly acute. According to Mr Pat Curtis, a senior official at Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, organised crime gangs have established sophisticated laundering plants to remove the giveaway dye, sourcing chemicals from China and using the internet to improve their techniques. Figures for 2012-13 indicate that the illicit market is worth 13% of the total. HMRC is responsible for investigating fuel fraud, including fuel laundering—as part of that work, it cleans any sites it uncovers—but in 2012 the Northern Ireland Environment Agency commenced a fly-tipping pilot in partnership with local councils. Between June 2012 and January 2015, Antrim 337 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 338 borough council, which is in my constituency, had one must be asked regarding Government proposals that fly-tipping incident. The cost incurred by NIEA was are supposed to tackle this problem. Why are the £346.76. In the same period but by stark contrast, Government continuing to designate the Dow fuel marker Armagh city and district council had 114 incidents at a in legislation, when they knew a year ago that it was not cost of £266,743.65, and Newry and Mourne district fit for purpose? Why do the Government not support council had 198 incidents at a cost of £585,333.94. their own British science company, when its fuel markers Those figures are startling. are the only IMS-proven—invitation to make In 2013-14, some 38 fuel laundering plants were submissions—indelible markers recommended? Why did dismantled in Northern Ireland compared with 13 plants Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs director, Mike in 2003-04. Although a fuel laundering plant is detected Norgrove, give evidence to the 2012 Northern Ireland every 10 days in Northern Ireland, and despite the fact Affairs Committee inquiry that he would travel anywhere that this criminality is filling terrorists’ coffers and in the world to find a solution for fuel fraud, when he bankrolling the IRA and Real IRA, no one has been personally turned down an invitation a year earlier by jailed for fuel fraud since 2002. Such statistics are the same British science company that saved the Brazilian preposterous, and the Northern Ireland public have a Government billions of US dollars and reduced fuel right to know whether that is the price of keeping fraud to less than 1% by 2012? Why would any Government republicans bought off for the sake of the peace process, allow billion-pound fraud to continue, when a British or whether fuel launderers are tipped off ahead of raids. science forensic solution already exists? Even more troubling to me, however, is that I am told that a Treasury Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): One challenge Minister wrote to the NIAC Chairman asking him to is that the nature of the fuel laundering process means keep the Dow launderability confidential. We must do that people do not need to be present. Part of the all within our power to stop illegally traded fuel raking difficulty is catching the right evidence. The Northern in massive profits for the criminal gangs mentioned Ireland Department of Justice is trying to ensure that today. evasion of the duty becomes a criminal offence so that people can be put in jail for it. That is much easier to Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does my hon. prosecute. Friend agree that, apart from the loss of revenue to the Exchequer and the financing of criminal gangs, immense Dr McCrea: I thank the hon. Lady for that helpful problems are being caused to the environment as a comment. I trust that that will be a warning to those result of toxic chemicals being poured into water courses? participating in that illegal activity. Dr McCrea: Concern for the environment was also Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I mentioned by a Minister of the Irish Republic recently. am sure my hon. Friend will mention this, but does he The House should be taking this matter very seriously, recognise that the criminality extends to drugs, cigarettes, because damage is being done and we cannot turn a alcohol and many other things in addition to fuel blind eye. The concern that many of us have is that the laundering? Does he also recognise that it is not the sole Government could do more. I cannot understand why preserve of republican paramilitary organisations, but those involved in this activity have not been brought that some of the loyalist paramilitary organisations before the courts. That is totally unacceptable. The last have moved into organised crime, and are corrupting time anyone was brought before the courts was 2002, our young people in many communities in Northern even though there are those who are known to have Ireland? committed this crime.

Dr McCrea: I concur. This is not an issue for just one Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Does the hon. community. However, there is an area of the Province Gentleman think the problem might be that HMRC has along the border that lends itself greatly to cross-border the lead duty to investigate fuel laundering? Perhaps, crime, and republicans are up to their neck in that. given that this involves serious organised crimes, the There is a query about whether fuel launderers are Police Service of Northern Ireland ought to have lead tipped off ahead of raids. After the 2013 major cross-border responsibility in Northern Ireland. Perhaps it would be police raid on Thomas “Slab”Murphy as part of Operation more effective at bringing prosecutions. Loft, the authorities at the time believed that the IRA chief of staff and his associates had been tipped off just Dr McCrea: I believe there are many agencies—when hours before, as salvaged from the embers were the I am winding up I shall draw attention to this—that burnt remains of laptops, documents and computer could work together to resolve this situation. I also discs. The status quo approach to tackling fuel smuggling accept what my right hon. Friend the Member for and laundering is untenable. When the operators of Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) said. We must turn our filling stations are successfully prosecuted—this is not attention to the cross-border drugs and alcohol problem. really happening at the moment—for selling illegal, I turn now to another serious organised criminal laundered fuel, provision should be made in legislation cross-border activity: the counterfeiting of consumer to ensure that these outlets cannot simply be reopened goods. Although smokers have been warned of the again after a few weeks, as happens at the moment. The serious health threats posed by illicit tobacco, the current community is sickened by this. price of duty-paid tobacco makes cheaper tobacco more The challenges we face are grave. We must take them readily available to the young and the vulnerable. For head on and the Government ought to take them head example, a notorious black market cigarette brand, Jin on. These fraudsters must be stopped and the criminals Ling, which is known to contain asbestos, was recently must be put behind bars. However, a number of questions found on sale in Belfast. Smuggling black market cigarettes 339 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 340

[Dr McCrea] 3.19 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern is extremely lucrative for organised gangs, which can Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison): I am very grateful for make huge profits and which cost the UK £2 billion a this timely debate. The motion, tabled in the name of year in lost taxes. the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) Last month, almost 1 tonne of raw leaf tobacco and and his DUP colleagues, is a good one and we support 10,000 suspected illicit cigarettes were seized in raids by it. I am conscious that many in this House have given a customs officers at a farm in south Armagh. HMRC great deal of attention over the years to the various said they were worth an estimated £236,000 in lost duty issues under discussion. For example, I am happy to and taxes. In separate searches on the same day, 10,000 acknowledge the work of the Northern Ireland Affairs illegal cigarettes were recovered. A number of private Committee in its 2012 report on fuel laundering and and business addresses in County Down were inspected. smuggling. I also pay tribute to the work of the British-Irish A vehicle and the cigarettes were removed, worth an Parliamentary Assembly, whose committee report, “Cross- estimated £2,800 in lost duty and taxes. It is truly border Police Cooperation and Illicit Trade”, which remarkable that no arrests have yet been made in relation was published last month, the Government are studying to either operation. The question we have to ask is: closely. I also congratulate the hon. Member for South why? Antrim (Dr McCrea) on presenting his remarks in typically robust fashion. I will try to address the points It is believed by many in the Province that the authorities he has raised as far as I can. are turning a blind eye, because this is a way to keep The motion lists a schedule of serious criminal activity, some paramilitary groupings sweet. Those groupings but before I address each of them in turn I want to put are able to fill the coffers of their organisations and on the record that crime rates overall in Northern even stand in elections against those who seek to do Ireland are low and that Northern Ireland is a safe place things in a legal and proper fashion. Although earlier to be. I say that because it is important to pay tribute to this month five people from County Tyrone and County the various agencies that operate in Northern Ireland Down were arrested as part of an investigation into a for the work they do in ensuring that safety, and to give suspected tobacco fraud worth £110 million, the situation a message to those who are looking at Northern Ireland highlights Northern Ireland as an attractive region for as a good place to invest and a good place to be. Many international crime gangs owing to the inertia in past of us grew up in the 1970s and ’80s and, although we months of parties failing to support the National Crime did not live in Northern Ireland, every night we saw Agency in Northern Ireland. It is through these statistics images on our television screens that portrayed a very that we are now clearly seeing the out-workings of not different Northern Ireland. That is, mercifully, a thing having the NCA in operation over the past year-and-a-half. of the past and, in order to foster the economic security It is no accident that these quantities of illegal substances that goes hand in hand with security, we need to give the are being smuggled across the border into Northern right message to those who may be seeking to invest in Ireland. These gangs know only too well that at present Northern Ireland. I know that the hon. Gentleman feels if the gang leaders are caught, some of their assets as strongly as I do about that. cannot be taken from them. For the past 18 months, we The DUP is right, however, to bring the issues under have been a soft touch for smugglers and criminal discussion to the attention of the House. Northern gangs. Although the NCA is now expected to be operational Ireland has particular issues regarding criminality. It is in Northern Ireland by May, it is largely a case of a very particular place and the challenges are peculiar shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. to Northern Ireland, and we cannot ignore them. We Nothing surprises us about the intransigence of Sinn owe it to people in Northern Ireland to address them to Fein and their hostility to the introduction of the NCA. the best of our ability. They have a vested interest in seeking to hinder The hon. Gentleman effectively described the situation investigations into the skulduggery of their republican of fuel laundering, which is a clear and present danger mates. However, others have dithered in their support that is particular to Northern Ireland, given that it has for the NCA and have denied the Exchequer millions of the United Kingdom’s only land border. Fuel laundering pounds in lost revenue that could have ultimately benefited and fuel smuggling come at a great cost to the Exchequer, the people of Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland honest businesses and the environment. The hon. Executive. The difficulties of policing the area along the Gentleman also touched on the possible cost to security. border are well documented. As recently as last month, The Government take the problem of oils fraud and a south Armagh man was injured in an explosion while crime very seriously indeed. The hon. Gentleman should taking down a poster, put up by republican criminal be assured of that and I hope to be able to give him gangs, which claimed that a second individual was a some examples of the efforts we have made to drive it security forces informer or “tout”. However, while it is down. Moreover, with the assistance of the agency to clear that there are tensions within republicanism, there which he referred, I hope we will have further successes remains a prevalence of fear in the community about in the months and years ahead. co-operating with the police to bring those behind such Fuel duty plays an important role in a range of threats and attacks to justice. Government objectives—social, environmental and fiscal. Fuel duty is also the fifth largest revenue stream for the In conclusion, the motion calls on the Government Government at around £27 billion a year. Clearly, we to ensure greater co-operation between HMRC, the cannot ignore it. The rates of fuel duty for all of the UK National Crime Agency and the PSNI in combining are set by the Chancellor, taking a wide range of factors their investigative prowess to eradicate the scourge of into consideration. To support motorists and businesses, criminal activity from our society. the Government cut fuel duty in March 2011 and have 341 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 342 cancelled all subsequent planned increases until the end is frustrated by the failure to eradicate this particular of the Parliament, a point I touched on during Northern form of criminality, but that is quite an achievement Ireland questions earlier today. and it represents considerable downward pressure on The Government have a comprehensive strategy in organised crime in Northern Ireland. Although we are place to tackle fuel fraud and crime. The oils anti-fraud all impatient for more, we sometimes have to celebrate strategy was originally launched in 2002, as the hon. successes as well as take note of failures. Gentleman has said, and has driven down the estimated illicit market considerably in both Great Britain and Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Minister Northern Ireland. Indeed, the latest tax gap figures refers to progress, but what about the issue mentioned published by HMRC indicate that the estimated illicit by my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim market share for diesel for Northern Ireland has fallen (Dr McCrea) about the lack of prosecutions and of from 26% to 13%. By any measure, that is quite an people being put through the courts and convicted? A achievement. The strategy was aimed at making it much lot of people in Northern Ireland, and, indeed, anyone harder for fraudsters to obtain rebated fuels, and to watching the debate, would find that incomprehensible track and analyse the supplies of them, including a given the scale of the illegal activity that so few people requirement for all dealers to register and submit returns. are brought before the courts. The registered dealers in controlled oil scheme has been a key weapon in our fight back against fuel fraud. Dr Murrison: There have been prosecutions and perhaps In Northern Ireland, the Government have close and I can enlighten the right hon. Gentleman about them productive co-operation with the Northern Ireland later in my speech. Clearly, we all want to see prosecutions Executive and with the authorities in the Republic. for criminal activity and the hon. Member for South Co-operation and intelligence sharing through the Antrim rightly highlighted the introduction of the NCA Organised Crime Task Force and the cross-border fuel into Northern Ireland, which everybody in this House fraud enforcement group has been invaluable in applying would welcome, I hope. We are doing that to drive multi-agency pressure to tackle oils fraud, including down further organised criminal activity in Northern fuel smuggling and laundering. Ireland and to get the convictions that the right hon. Gentleman seeks. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): On combating fuel fraud, will the Minister confirm that the new fuel Dr McCrea: Does the Minister not realise that the marker that is about to be introduced in Northern community finds it absolutely abhorrent that filling Ireland has no roadside test capability whatsoever and stations that sell illegal fuel are not only not prosecuted that, therefore, the Government are about to put in a but open the following week to sell fuel again? In many marker that cannot be tested on our roadsides? cases, the community has seen such filling stations closed down on a number of occasions without any court case following. Dr Murrison: The road marker has been a long time in the making. It has been trialled both in the UK and Dr Murrison: I would certainly share the hon. in the Republic and both countries are happy with it. I Gentleman’s frustration if there has been criminality am assured that it will be robust and that it is extremely without prosecution. Of course, these matters do not difficult to remove. rest with me but when crime exists we want it to be expunged and dealt with. I would start to part company Ian Paisley: I will have an argument with the Minister with the hon. Gentleman, however, on the suggestion about its capability in a moment, but I am asking a that there has been some complicity or a deal done. I specific question about roadside testing. We cannot have seen no evidence to suggest that that is the case. I combat crime if we are not able to stop someone who can understand his suspicion, of course, but I would has the fuel and test it at the roadside. One of the like to downplay some of his suggestions that in some requirements of the IMS test was to have roadside way agencies have been allowing things to go on or have capability, so will the Minister confirm that the Dow not been prosecuting or pursuing cases when, of course, marker has no roadside capability? the law would require them to do so. That is a very serious charge and were there to be substance in it I Dr Murrison: What I can confirm is that the marker is would expect it to be reported to the appropriate authorities capable of being discovered; otherwise, frankly, there and investigated. would be no point in having it, would there? What would be the point of going to the expense of putting in Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I join the Minister a marker if it was not possible for criminal justice and others in welcoming the fact that the NCA will now agencies to determine whether the material was illicit or have a remit in Northern Ireland. I congratulate the not? [Interruption.] Perhaps I will be able to come back DUP and all those who pressed the Government and to the hon. Gentleman’s remarks later, but if I cannot other bodies to ensure that that happened. Given that deal with them satisfactorily perhaps the Under-Secretary the NCA now has this much wider remit, as the Select of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Committee on Home Affairs has recommended in the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), past, will it receive any additional resources to deal with who will be in the hot seat shortly, will be able to shed these issues? some further light to his satisfaction. In the financial year 2013-2014 alone, HMRC dismantled Dr Murrison: Part of the difficulty, of course, has 38 laundering plants, closed 79 huckster sites and seized been that the PSNI has had to deal with a lot of these more than 500,000 litres of illicit fuel in Northern matters itself. The Chief Constable will say that he is Ireland. I accept that the hon. Member for South Antrim well resourced, but he has been subject to considerable 343 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 344

[Dr Murrison] David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I think the Minister said—I stand to be corrected on the exact restraints, as have all police forces in the United Kingdom wording—that the Government were confident that the in recent years. That inevitably has an impact on what marker would work, but a test carried out in Bellingham he can do. The fact that the NCA has not been able to with Queen’s university and others, to which HMRC operate at anything like its fullest extent in Northern had to be dragged kicking and squealing, along with the Ireland has meant that there has been a deficit in Irish Revenue, proved that the Dow marker could effectively policing in Northern Ireland. That is now, mercifully, be removed by simple distillation. We must have confidence being remedied so that the people of Northern Ireland in the marker, but this one cannot do it. can benefit from the full entirety of policing to which they are entitled. That will clearly have resource implications, Dr Murrison: I am certainly not going to assert that which I hope will be beneficial, for the PSNI. any marker or anything added to a substance is incapable On the question of concerns about the lack of custodial of being removed, but clearly it is perfectly possible to sentences, after running a consultation in summer 2013 launder fuel at the moment—it happens all the while—and the Northern Ireland Department of Justice implemented although the pattern of fuel laundering is changing, as legislative change in December of that year allowing the was touched upon by the hon. Member for Belfast East referral of unduly lenient excise fraud sentences to the (Naomi Long), nevertheless it remains and brings with Court of Appeal. The consultation and the resulting it financial and environmental costs, and costs in terms measure had the Government’s full support, of course. I of criminality, security and all the rest of it. I am can report to the House that in the period 2013-14 six advised that the new marker, which we will introduce in individuals were prosecuted for fuel fraud in Northern May, is an improvement on what we currently have. Ireland. I accept that that is nothing like enough, given the extent of the problem, but it gives the lie to the David Simpson indicated dissent. suggestion that there have been no prosecutions as there clearly have. However, I would share the assertion made Dr Murrison: I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman does by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) not agree, and I am sorry if I cannot give him an that there need to be more. I hope that the introduction absolute assurance that any substance we add could of the NCA will play a part in that. never be removed, but he will have to accept that it is an On the specific issue of fuel laundering— improvement on what is happening at the moment, which is patently inadequate. Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give way? David Simpson indicated dissent.

Dr Murrison: I will in a minute. Dr Murrison: Well, I look forward to the hon. Hon. Members might be aware that the UK has Gentleman’s remarks when he makes his contribution. worked closely with Ireland to identify a new fuel marker. It will come in in May and represents a significant Mention has been made of fraud and tobacco—topical improvement on the current fuel marker. It gives much given the deferred Division at lunchtime. To be clear, more protection against fraud. our aim is to maintain the downward pressure on the illicit market in cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco. Ian Paisley: Will the Minister give way? HMRC’s anti-smuggling strategy is effective and has been adapted continuously to deal with changes in Dr Murrison: I think that we have exhausted this criminal behaviour. Since HMRC first launched its particular point, and I did say that I would come back strategy to tackle tobacco smuggling, the illicit cigarette to the hon. Gentleman. However, I said that I would market has reduced by half and the illicit hand-rolling give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Amber tobacco market by a third, which is substantial. Valley (Nigel Mills). The motion refers to greater co-operation between Nigel Mills: While we are talking about the lack of the PSNI, the NCA and HMRC on combating serious prosecutions, the sentences that are given out are somewhat criminal activity. This cuts to the heart of today’s debate more lenient than we might hope for an offence of such and the point on which we pin so many of our hopes for seriousness. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a the future. Extensive multi-agency cross-border co-operation problem in that a lot of people perceive fuel laundering is a key element of the operational response to fuel and illegal sales of tobacco to be victimless crimes fraud. HMRC chairs a multi-agency cross-border fuel whereas—this is certainly the case in Northern Ireland— fraud group that meets quarterly and has representatives they are serious organised crime offences that fund from HMRC, the Northern Ireland Department of the other serious activity and should be treated with that Environment, the NCA, the PSNI, the Northern Ireland seriousness by the public, by all the authorities and by Environment Agency and their Republic of Ireland those who give out the sentences when people are equivalents. This group shares intelligence and information caught? on operational activity, as well as co-ordinating joint operations. The joint UK-Irish project that identified Dr Murrison: I agree it is not a victimless crime, as is the new fuel marker is a prime example of that co-operation, clear from the figures I have trotted out—there is the notwithstanding the remarks from hon. Gentlemen this cost to the Treasury alone. All of us who rely on the afternoon. largesse of the public services we enjoy are victims of I am delighted that the House has agreed legislation this crime, so I would certainly agree with my hon. to extend fully the remit of the NCA in Northern Friend. On the leniency of sentences, I will be interested Ireland. This follows the vote in its support last month to see what the Court of Appeal decides. in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Serious and organised 345 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 346 crime groups do not operate in isolated pockets of each the agencies concerned within Northern Ireland, between region, and nor do they respect borders or force boundaries. Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, The PSNI estimates that there are between 140 and 160 and between the United Kingdom and the Republic of organised crime groups active in Northern Ireland and Ireland. 800 active criminals. Nearly one third of these groups The motion is right, too, to argue for vigorous are assessed as having links to international criminality, enforcement of the law in circumstances where, to be and another third are linked to criminality in the UK frank, enforcement in the past has sometimes been and the Republic of Ireland. lamentable. In particular, for vigorous enforcement of Since it was created just over a year ago, the NCA has the law, it is necessary to make an example of the worst begun to make a real impact on the threat to the UK culprits and to go after their ill-gotten gains, sending an from serious and organised crime, but until now the unmistakeable message that crime will never pay. Sadly, fight against such offences in Northern Ireland has at the moment, it too often does, which is wrong and been inhibited. There have been a number of significant must be put right. PSNI investigations that the NCA would have been David Ford, the Northern Ireland Justice Minister better placed to lead, given that key criminals and their who chairs the Organised Crime Task Force in Northern associated infrastructure have been based outside Northern Ireland has said, as the Minister mentioned, that there Ireland. It has also been difficult for PSNI to access the are between 140 and 160 gangs operating in Northern specialist resource and capability that the NCA holds. Ireland. Criminal gangs in Northern Ireland are not Northern Ireland has been left at a greater risk from just involved in what one might call “traditional criminal child sexual exploitation, cybercrime and economic crime activity”, but are now turning to computer-based cybercrime because the specialist resources that the NCA has developed and operating in rural areas. A report released last have not been available. November on “Serious and Organised Crime”in Northern Civil recovery has been affected. Since June 2013, Ireland states that civil recovery investigations are down by more than “serious and organised crime ranks among the most serious risks 50% and property-freezing orders by more than 70%. of harm to the community in NI”. This is worrying, because denying criminals the proceeds It went on to say: of crime is one of the most effective ways we have of disrupting their activities. However, the NCA will soon “Organised crime also has very significant consequences with be able to deal with serious and organised criminals—no the impact of, for example, drug dealing, robbery and fraud and other insidious forms of organised criminality. It has significant matter where they are—and I am confident that the consequences for individual communities and for society as a people of Northern Ireland will now have the same whole. Both serious and organised crime…has a detrimental protection against serious and organised crime as those impact on public finances.” in the rest of the UK. That is surely their right. That is absolutely right, because the consequences of As I have said, we do not doubt the seriousness of serious and organised crime can include, with particular these types of criminal activity and the harm they cause respect to the drug trade, the ruining of lives. Those to society and security. We and devolved colleagues are, who commit fraud and online crime and prey on the as I have outlined, working in co-operation with partners vulnerable may leave them bankrupt and destitute. There elsewhere to address these problems vigorously. There is is also the impact on the taxpayer. The Minister mentioned often close co-operation with counterparts across the the overall tax take of £27 billion from fuel duties, but border, and I would say that it is increasing, but we need too many people in Northern Ireland who are operating at all times to ensure that the fullest pressure is maintained across the border get away with paying no duty at all. on the perpetrators, wherever they may be, and the The Northern Ireland Omnibus Survey, which measures Government will seek to go on doing just that. perceptions, found that nearly two thirds of respondents believed that the problem of organised crime was Several hon. Members rose— widespread in Northern Ireland. Indeed, having recently reported its findings in Dublin, the British-Irish Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. Parliamentary Assembly expressed alarm at the extent I now have to announce the result of the deferred and scale of the fuel-laundering business along the Division on the question relating to the draft Standardised border. On a fact-finding visit, the group witnessed no Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015. The fewer than 12 diesel-laundering fronts in operation on Ayes were 367 and the Noes were 113, so the Ayes the border area between south Armagh and the Republic. have it. As a result, they made several recommendations with [The Division list is published at the end of today’s the aim of curbing curb the lucrative black market that debates.] currently exists. They urged, for instance, that “every possible effort must be made by law enforcement authorities in their collaborative efforts to shut down these operations, despite 3.41 pm the difficulties in policing some of these areas.” Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I first In the context of fuel laundering and the avoidance pay tribute to the hon. Member for South Antrim of fuel duty, may I press the Minister further on the (Dr McCrea) for bringing home both the scale and issue of the Dow Chemical Company? I should like to seriousness of the threat in Northern Ireland. I welcome know how confident the Government are about that the initiative of the Democratic Unionist party in bringing issue, because some serious questions have been posed this motion before us, because the DUP is absolutely to us. It was proved to HMRC and the Republic’s right to bring home the scale of the problem, and to revenue authorities that the Dow marker was defective, argue for determined action to deal with what is a in what we understand to have been a private test. Is serious threat, involving effective co-ordination of all that true? Both sides said that they would carry out a 347 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 348

[Jack Dromey] in Northern Ireland at risk, but the problems of organised crime being linked to paramilitaries is not exclusive to scaled-up version of the test. That has now happened, the republican community. and a report is available. The report states that the Dow I pay tribute to the Chief Constable of the Police marker can be removed completely, and cost-effectively, Service of Northern Ireland, George Hamilton, for all in a scaled-up field test. Is that true? We are told that the work that he has been doing to address these issues. Ministers may not know exactly what is happening. We However, the motion from the Democratic Unionists is do not know; is that true? What does the Minister right to say that we need to be more vigorous in our know, and what would he be prepared to tell Parliament? approach at the next stages, with strengthened and Instead of opting for the immovable British marker more effective co-ordination between all relevant bodies that came top in the test but was more expensive, the to enhance law enforcement and bring more people to Government are sticking to a flawed marker which may justice in order to stamp out fuel and drug smuggling well not work. That cannot be right in the context of for criminal profit and, in some cases, terrorist ends. combating fuel laundering, and it also cannot be right On the extension of the National Crime Agency to for a good British product to be turned down in favour Northern Ireland, we warmly welcome the fact that the of an alternative that is flawed. impasse has finally been broken, the law has been I have had sight of a letter to the hon. Member for changed and we will see the extension of the NCA’s Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) from the right hon. Member coverage to Northern Ireland. It is an objective that we for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), the present Education have supported for some time. We have encouraged Secretary, who was then in the Treasury, which deals parties to come together in Northern Ireland and agree with the question of whether the test is defective. In the that objective. It is not right that there were some who letter, the right hon. Lady wrote that she was aware that dragged their heels, but at last the remit of the NCA has the hon. Gentleman was focusing on the issue of the been extended, which is to be welcomed. Wherever marker, and that his Committee was discussing it. She racketeering and exploitation take place, action should also wrote: be taken to tackle those serious crimes. “I would be grateful if you could otherwise treat the contents I welcome the fact that in this place there was cross- as confidential as any information regarding theoretical weaknesses Chamber agreement, with all parties coming together could alert fraudsters.” to say that the extension of the NCA to Northern Are there weaknesses, theoretical or otherwise? I think Ireland was a sensible measure, not before its time. At that the Government need to tell Parliament, because if the next stage, co-ordinated action is crucial, as the we are finally and fully to combat the menace of fuel motion calls for. The point made by my right hon. laundering, we need to be absolutely confident that Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) about what we have works. the effective resourcing of that was well made. In circumstances where the lack of prosecutions is lamentable, It is clear that more needs to be done to combat such the enforcement of the law and—I stress this again—a illicit activity. In fact, the report “Serious and Organised much more vigorous approach are needed to pursue the Crime: An inspection on how the Criminal Justice ill-gotten gains of those involved in serious and organised System deals with Serious and Organised Crime in crime. Although the extension of the NCA to Northern Northern Ireland”, to which I referred earlier, recommended Ireland is a welcome step, it needs to take a much more that vigorous approach to going after those who benefit “The OCTF should develop a new jointly agreed strategy with from the proceeds of crime. During the passage of the clear outcomes focused on co-ordinated joint enforcement operations recent Serious Crime Bill we sought to strengthen the and linked to explicit underlying harm reduction strategies.” Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 and some progress was The setting of such an objective is welcome, not least made, which we welcome, but there is enormous room because crime groups are highly mobile and flexible, for improvement in future. operating across national and international borders and Recently I heard Keith Bristow, head of the NCA, criminal sectors. If there is a gap in our defences, saying that the agency had only seized £22.5 million in including in respect of asset recovery and coverage, it criminal assets in its first year, and he went on to say affects everyone. These problems are not confined to that more than £1.3 billion of the £1.46 billion owed by Northern Ireland and can bleed through to Great Britain, convicted criminals to the taxpayer is unlikely ever to be the Republic of Ireland and beyond, and vice versa. In recovered. As with so many other issues, this is an issue some cases, the root cause is yet more nefarious than where, here in Britain but also in Northern Ireland, we mere profit, because historically some of the gangs must be more vigorous in our approach to recovering concerned have had strong links to both republican and those ill-gotten gains and starving criminals in Northern loyalist paramilitary groups. Dissident republican groups, Ireland of their resources. which continue to be a threat to the peace process and This is a welcome debate at a crucial moment. There to the stability of Northern Ireland, are heavily dependent is a determination across communities in Northern on organised crime. Members of the Ulster Volunteer Ireland, as here in Britain, to more seriously tackle Force and the Ulster Defence Association, too, have serious and organised crime, but it is not enough that been known to be involved in extortion, loan sharking, we simply pass motions in this House or elsewhere; it is robbery, drugs, burglary, theft and money laundering, about what is done to see the law implemented. There and the list goes on. must be effective action against that which remains a With reference to the powerful speech from the serious threat. Tackling serious and organised crime is hon. Member for South Antrim, we are rightly concerned important no matter where we turn in the UK, but it is about the link between organised crime and dissident all the more important in Northern Ireland because of republican groups because that puts peace and stability the tremendous progress that has been made in terms of 349 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 350 the peace process. It remains in some respects fragile, facilities. These activities are unfair to the ordinary and there are those who challenge it, but the last thing everyday workers and businessmen in Northern Ireland we want is that those who challenge it, particularly who are doing their best to pay their taxes and keep republican paramilitaries, being able to benefit from their businesses going. They are completely above board, serious and organised crime to fund their nefarious yet other individuals are profiting from their activities. activities. We strongly support the motion. That is totally wrong, and it has been going on for far too long. 3.56 pm Whether the Minister has been furnished with all the David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): It is a great information or not, the information I am giving him is privilege to speak in this timely debate. We have debated factual, and my hon. Friend the Member for North this subject before. The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee Antrim (Ian Paisley) will certainly be able to give him a has done a report on it, and it has been ongoing for lot more when he winds up the debate. This issue needs some time. My hon. Friend the Member for East to be got right. It has gone on for far too long and it has Londonderry (Mr Campbell) used the word “Horlicks”— become a laughing stock. At the beginning of the and that is exactly what this is. It is costing the Exchequer debate, it was suggested that this arrangement might hundreds of millions of pounds. I predict that the have been a pay-off for the republicans. When we were Government will introduce this Dow marker, and it will talking about the National Crime Agency earlier today, not reduce the problem. That is my prediction because someone in the House remembered that the deal involved the tests we have witnessed and those that have been 2p to the pound. I would hate to think that any Government carried out show that it does not work. had done any kind of deal with republicans and criminals or given them 2p to the pound to keep their mouths I will be brief as I know other Members wish to shut. It would be a travesty if that were the case. There speak, but I need to put a number of questions to the is something rotten about this whole process and system. Minister. Can the Minister or his officials tell us why There is something wrong and we need to get to the Dow Chemical Company was not thrown out of the bottom of it. IMS—invitation to make submissions—tendering process for the marker under European law, when in 2013 it was Dr McCrea: This might be a laughing stock, but it is fined $1.1 billion for fraud? It was fined $1.1 billion, yet certainly no joke. This is a very serious matter. Did my it is part of the tendering process, and we are about to hon. Friend hear the hon. Member for Birmingham, introduce a dye that comes from that company. Erdington (Jack Dromey) say that the British-Irish The Minister was asked a question earlier to which grouping went out on a fact-finding mission and saw we did not get an answer, but perhaps his officials or the 12 of these facilities in operation? If they could see 12 of representation from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs them operating on that one day, where was HMRC and today can provide the answer: why was this technology where were the authorities at the time? awarded to Dow with no roadside test when the other, British recommended company had a roadside test? David Simpson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to A number of years ago—maybe 10—I was asked to ask that question. Someone was sleeping on their watch, pay a visit to South Armagh by a political activist who if indeed they were watching at all. lives there. He rang me and said, “David, you have I have another question for the Minister. Why would raised issues of fuel smuggling. Would you like to see the Government not support their own world-leading some of them?”I spent the day going around 15 distilleries British science company when its fuel markers are the and seeing their fuel laundering equipment—or whatever only IMS-proven indelible markers that are recommended? the terminology is—and got within 100 metres of Slab I want to ask him a further question. Given that the Murphy’s house and his laundering facilities. We moved IMS is a joint UK-Republic of Ireland process, why was back up the road a mile, on a hill, and the lorries were a single Dow marker IMS awarded when the Government freely going in and out of Slab Murphy’s facilities, with knew that they needed a minimum of two indelible nothing being done about it—absolutely nothing. markers? I have asked a series of questions. I do not Right up to the present day, no one has been imprisoned expect to get the answers today, but it is important that for this. The Minister corrected one of my colleagues on we try to get to the bottom of this. the subject of prosecutions, but this is costing the Government and the taxpayer hundreds of millions of Dr Murrison: Perhaps I can write to the hon. Gentleman pounds. We spoke earlier about the budgets. There is no with a fuller account if he wants me to. This whole money in the budgets, and I understand that there are debate appears to be revolving around the Dow marker. to be further cuts after the general election to try to That is fine, but hon. Members need to understand that clear the deficit. There will be issues if that is the case, the tendering operation was free and open. The Government because we are suffering and the amount being lost to are bound by rules in that respect, so there was no shady the Revenue every year could be used to build several deal in which a British company was disadvantaged or hospitals. in which Dow was given preference. That would have been madness. The alleged laundering method does not Dr McCrea: Is my hon. Friend talking about the appear to be a viable large-scale proposition. I cannot same Slab Murphy whom Gerry Adams described as a give the hon. Gentleman the assurance he seeks that a decent businessman? marker exists that can never be removed. The experiences in the laboratory and in the field are very different, as I David Simpson: Yes, absolutely. think he will probably, on quiet reflection, understand. After we had seen the activity I have just described, On the other point about markers and whether we we reported it to what was then the RUC, and several would be able to detect at the roadside whether something moves were made to close some of the laundering was illicit or not, clearly we are not going to remove the 351 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 352

[Dr Murrison] issue is often overlooked because in many ways it is a hidden crime, and, as the hon. Member for Amber marker we already have until we are completely happy Valley (Nigel Mills) said, it is often viewed as a victimless with the new one and it is proven. So the hon. Gentleman crime. It is anything but. It is important that as well as can be assured that the two will run in parallel and, trying to combat it through the various agencies that thus, there will be no disadvantage. I am hopeful that have a role in addressing organised crime, we communicate the new marker will be an advantage, but certainly we carefully with the public about their role in combating it will be running the two in parallel. I hope that gives him and about the risk it poses to them. People often simply some reassurance. see cheaper goods and that is the only aspect they see of organised crime; they do not see the risks to them, the David Simpson: Not really, but I will say something other criminality that goes with it, the danger, or the about the process. My understanding is that a year ago money taken from revenue that would otherwise be the Dow marker was tested and found not to work, yet invested in services. a year down the road we are introducing it. I cannot understand that. If something does not work, why are Obviously this is a complex area. Others have mentioned we spending millions of pounds on introducing it? We how difficult it has been to secure convictions, and I are trying to get to the bottom of this and we need the shall move on to discuss that. First, however, I pay proper marker introduced. tribute to the law-enforcement agencies for the work they are doing on both sides of the border. A complex Jack Dromey: The Minister said he is “hopeful” that collection of agencies has to deal with this complex area it will work, but I am not sure that will inspire confidence. of crime. We have the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Does the hon. Gentleman agree that when the Minister Garda Siochana and the National Crime Agency. We said that the Government were bound to accept the welcome the fact that we now have the additional bid—suggesting that because it was a cheaper bid they resource of the NCA, because while we focus on one were bound to accept it—that was not a correct reading border, criminals operate across many borders, so of, among other things, European procurement rules, having that national organisation involved is hugely because ultimately what is procured has to work? important. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, Revenue commissioners and Border Force work closely together David Simpson: We do not necessarily have to take in order to share intelligence, to disrupt those who try the cheapest option—it has to work. to perpetrate crimes and to ensure that they are eventually brought before the courts. When people are brought Dr Murrison: I understand that 23 markers from before the courts for participation in organised crime or 12 companies were assessed side by side, and clearly the for benefiting from taking goods that are clearly only one that worked was chosen. I hope that is helpful. available as a result of organised crime, the penalties should be a deterrent. David Simpson: As I have said, time will tell. I think The impact of fuel laundering has been discussed at this is going to be an expensive exercise that will be considerable length. The scale of the problem in Northern proven in time to be not as effective as the Minister has Ireland is undeniable. Fuel laundering is not just a been led to believe. cross-border issue: the uncollected revenue from fraudulent diesel in Northern Ireland was estimated by HMRC to Dr McCrea: If we are introducing something, surely be £80 million in 2012-13, which is 13% of the overall it must work—millions of pounds will otherwise be lost market share in Northern Ireland. That is a significant to the Exchequer. If those millions of pounds are not sum of money, especially when we compare it with the needed here, I assure hon. Members that they would be GB figure for illicit market share, which was about very welcome in the coffers of the Northern Ireland 2% in the same year. That gives us a clear indication of Executive, given the deficit we face. Surely this has to the scale of the problem, but it is not just a Northern work and we have to be sure that it works. We are not Ireland issue, because that revenue is being denied to doing this on a trial-and-error basis; we have to be sure the UK as a whole. There is a genuine interest here in that we have something that works. Parliament to address the issue robustly, because it is Great Britain’s schools and hospitals as well as our David Simpson: I thank my hon. Friend for his schools and hospitals that lose out as a result of the intervention, because he is correct about that. The revenue not being collected. matter is too serious for the marker not to work. This situation has been ongoing, and the amount of money The nature of fuel laundering means that sites themselves that has been lost and wasted over the past 10 to are not regularly attended, which can make it difficult 15 years—or longer—is just horrific. It could have done to establish a clear link to the perpetrators. In Northern a lot to help many vulnerable people, not only in Ireland, we often say that everyone knows who does Northern Ireland, but on the mainland. We are where things, but knowing and proving are two different things we are and time will tell, but I know my colleague will when it comes to the law. Part of the strategy is to have a few other statistics and figures to give in his disrupt those who are involved in illegal activity, and winding-up speech. part of it is to try to catch them. Trying to balance those two things can be very difficult. It is often hard to make that clear link to the perpetrators. It requires the seizure 4.8 pm of records and the scene of crime work, which is complex Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I pay tribute to and slow. Prosecutions in this field often do not come to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) for court for many years after the breaking up of the illegal bringing this motion to the House today. This important fuel laundering plant. 353 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 354

There has been an increase in the number of fuel Northern Ireland Affairs Committee has done here laundering plants dismantled—the number has risen with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and in other quite quickly over the past few years. There has also places. It appears not to have been taken seriously. That been an increase in the number of convictions, but the is the concern expressed by Members on this side of the problem is that not one person has received a custodial Chamber. I certainly would not wish to put anything sentence of more than 10 years, which seems ludicrous into the public domain that would give any succour or given the impact that the crime has on society. encouragement to any criminal; neither would I want to The challenge in making arrests and obtaining the rely on a marker if there was evidence that it could be evidence is something of which the Department of easily removed. Justice and my colleague David Ford are fully aware. As We also need to acknowledge that this is a multi-billion the Minister rightly said, the Department of Justice has pound business for the people involved. Whatever marker introduced legislation adding the evasion of duty in is used, they will invest in the technology that will allow relation to fuel and tobacco to the list of offences that them to evade it. All that we are trying to do—all that can be referred by the Director of Public Prosecutions we can ever do in these circumstances—is stay ahead in from the Crown court to the Court of Appeal when a the game. We need to be realistic about the fact that sentence is considered to be unduly lenient. That does when it comes to protecting the public, what we are not resolve the issue entirely, but it does mean that there trying to do is stay ahead of the criminals in the is a fall-back position when judges are seen not to have technology we use: they will no doubt be chasing that taken seriously enough someone who is brought before technology as soon as it is included as a marker. them in connection with these crimes. As I said, I want to move on to the wider issue of the Dr McCrea: Does the hon. Lady accept that there is impact on the victims. I have already mentioned that another difficulty? In the instance I mentioned, laptops this is not a victimless crime. I want to talk about the and documents were destroyed or burned before HMRC wider impact of fuel smuggling and fuel laundering and arrived at the scene. The concern was that there had the wider counterfeiting of consumer goods. The motion been a tip-off. ranges slightly wider than fuel, although fuel obviously exercises us all because of its significance. There are two Naomi Long: There is no doubt that that is a concern, separate but linked issues. The illicit and counterfeit and it has been a concern for some time. There is goods themselves have an element of risk attached to evidence that when HMRC or the PSNI has turned up them. They defraud the public. People often purchase on site, people have scattered and taken with them some inferior goods in the belief that they are getting the real of the critical evidence, which suggests that they were thing, and that in itself can be extremely dangerous. aware that those organisations were coming. Obviously, For example, when fuel is stretched rather than laundered we can look at that in two ways. The first is that or smuggled, it can seriously damage vehicles. Often the someone could be tipping off those launderers. The people who purchase it are unaware that it has been alternative is that these are complex organisations that stretched. There are two classes of people in that regard: have their own intelligence. They are observing the those who know that they are buying fuel at a ridiculously movements of the police, HMRC and others in the area low price and that they are risking their vehicles; and and may well become aware that operations are moving those who stop at what looks like a reasonable petrol against them. In some ways, we need the intelligence on station and purchase fuel, only to find out subsequently the legal side of the fence to be much more robust than that it has damaged their vehicles because it was illicit. the intelligence on the other side. We should not rule That is a different issue, but it causes real damage to out the possibility that the criminals themselves are vehicles, and that is something that the public need to gathering intelligence about what is happening in their be made aware of. Frankly, it may well provide a bigger neighbourhoods that helps them to evade capture. deterrent against buying laundered fuel than almost I want to move on to the wider issue of the impact of anything else we could say to motorists. this crime. I have referred to the fact that this is not a Counterfeiting also places the public at risk in other victimless crime, and it is worth talking now about some ways. Reference has already been made to the discovery the victims. that some counterfeit cigarettes contain asbestos. Counterfeit cigarettes sold in Northern Ireland in the Dr Murrison: The point about intelligence is well past have been found to contain arsenic. The people made. It is important not to provide organised criminals who make these products do not really care what goes with information if we can possibly avoid it, which into them or what impact they might have on health. recalls the letter from my right hon. Friend the Member When people purchase counterfeit and illicit goods, for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) to the Chair of the they are placing themselves at considerable risk. Another Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. I have not seen example is that of products made of flammable materials the letter so cannot comment on it in any detail, but I being brought into the household. People might think think it is probably wise not to put such a letter in the that those products meet the regular standards, unaware public domain if it would give succour to organised that they are actually bringing materials into their home criminals. We must be careful not to display our tactics that could put their family at serious risk. and what we do to those who might wish to make use of them in a way that is contrary to national security or I also want to highlight the conditions of those good order. involved in counterfeiting these goods, because often they are being held against their will in other countries, Naomi Long: I understand the Minister’s point, but having been trafficked as slaves in order to produce there is a wider point about how Members can raise them. The abuse often reaches much further than consumers their concerns about these issues. They have done so via and the public here in Britain; it also affects those correspondence and in private evidence sessions, as the producing the goods further afield. 355 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 356

[Naomi Long] serve jail time for what they are doing. I commend the hon. Member for South Antrim for bringing this motion As the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) to the House. rightly, if rather surprisingly, said, significant environmental damage is caused when people get involved in fuel laundering. The mess that is left around the countryside 4.23 pm in Northern Ireland not only costs millions of pounds Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is a pleasure again to clean up but will take many years to be ameliorated. to follow the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi It will leave an almost indelible mark on parts of our Long), as in the previous debate. Again, much of what I countryside, on our water supply, and on many other say will find agreement with what she has said, and things, so these illicit and counterfeit goods have a indeed with what some other hon. Members have said. I significant impact on the public. might need to take up some other points that were The other aspect is smuggled goods—the stuff that is directed particularly at the SDLP. brought in through smuggling routes. Those who open I am glad to endorse the motion and commend my up those routes do so not for one particular set of colleagues—right hon. and hon. Members from the goods; once they are available they will use them for DUP—for introducing it. It is important that we now anything. When they have good routes for smuggling harness every single effort that we possibly can to fuel, consumer goods or cigarettes, we can be sure that combat organised crime in all its forms and at all its they will use the same routes for smuggling people and levels, conscious of all its effects and impacts. drugs—and all human misery is there. It is about opening As other hon. Members have said, some people perhaps up routes around the world so they can smuggle goods, labour under a false impression that fuel laundering or and they do not care whether it is people or goods being smuggling is a victimless crime, but it is not. It robs trafficked. revenue from hard-pressed public services. Such scams In all cases, whether counterfeiting and laundering or are not against big business and the taxman, but against smuggled goods, people are evading their tax and Revenue neighbours, the community and consumers, as well as payments. That brings us back to the issue of robbing against public services and the revenue on which those public services. Those who purchase cheap cigarettes or services depend. In that sense, we are all victims of these cheap petrol and diesel, and thereby counterfeit goods, crimes. may think that it makes no difference. However, when Nobody should have any fancy notions about the they turn up at the hospital and face long waiting times rackets and scams happening in this part of the 21st century for accident and emergency services, or cannot get a bed being in any way connected with little family, folklore and are lying on a trolley for 48 hours, they should stories of people smuggling butter during the war years. realise that those problems are due to money not going They are nothing like that, and should not be seen in to the Revenue. We have to be honest with the public such a way. This is ruthless big business, and people are and say: “You are only stealing from yourself when you in it not just for their own mercenary motives, but with purchase goods in this way; you are not doing anything lethal menace. They go about their business in that way, to help your own situation.” We need to try to disabuse and people who dare to interfere with them, are suspected people of the notion that this is a victimless crime. of cutting across them or make a tip-off about their In Northern Ireland, as several hon. Members have rip-offs face very serious consequences. That is why said, this has a more sinister element in that much of people who are conscious of, or surmise that, things are the money raised in this way is being funnelled into going on, first, find that it is very difficult to say further illegal activity and, in particular, paramilitary anything, and secondly, find it hard to believe that more activity. That should be a matter of concern to us all. is not being done by the authorities who know about it, We want a stable and peaceful future, but most of all we seem to know about it or should know about it. want a safe and secure future for the people we represent. Other hon. Members have mentioned cases in which We need to say to people: “When you purchase smuggled action has been taken, but such action has been taken at goods at the petrol pump or elsewhere, bear in mind the a time or in a way that means people have removed fact that you are putting money in the pockets of people themselves from a property and destroyed the evidence who are quite happy to set out with murder in mind and there before the authorities arrive. That raises all sorts take lives for political gain. Those are the people who of questions about how such situations arise. benefit from this.” It is not only republicans but loyalists There is a sense of scandal in many quarters about who are willing, through organised crime, to work in the fact that, as we moved on from the paramilitarism drug smuggling, drug dealing, counterfeiting, and all in all the forms we knew during the troubles, there was the other things. Criminals will work together where basically an acceptance that it was okay for some there is money to be made. That will be more important paramilitaries to privatise themselves into various criminal to them than any political objectives they may claim to activities so long as someone within their broad political have, and much more important than the lives and the community could vouch for their staying on the right security of the people in their communities. side of the argument over the peace process. The authorities It is important in this debate that we spend a little were told to be careful about interfering with or coming time considering the fact that this is not a victimless down too heavily on some of those people because it crime but a complex and difficult one that requires a might upset the balance of opinion or of favour within multi-agency approach. I have no doubt that the agencies their republican base. That sense of scandal is one are pushing very hard to bring it to an end, but we need reason why the authorities need to be seen to be acting to secure public support. With that support, it will be with full intelligence and full vigour, and why people much easier to find those who are behind these smuggling want to see the courts follow through on prosecutions rings, hold them to account in the courts, and see them brought by policing authorities and HMRC, with 357 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 358 convictions and credible, meaningful sentences. Rightly added profile coming from organisations such as the or wrongly, there is currently the sense that in that Trading Standards Institute, again to help make people regard something does not add up or some connection aware of the situation. It is important that some of is not being made. these messages do not always appear to come from Hon. Members have touched on the environmental traditional law enforcement mechanisms but come from impact of some of these crimes. Just as the criminal other civil purpose agencies as well, so that perhaps activity—the sourcing, processing and transfer for sale people will listen to them differently and hear—or at of the materials—is of a cross-border nature, so too least credit—a warning that they do not hear from have been the hazardous environmental impacts. Materials somebody else. We need to see that issue cracked, and have been dumped into watercourses and have found action against it. their way into various counties and communities, as There is also significant waste crime in Northern well as into waterways contributing to the public water Ireland and, of course, in the island of Ireland. Some of supplies, on both sides of the border. That shows that that waste crime has been cross-border in character, but the people committing these crimes are not just content not all of it. There have been debates about the NCA, with acting against the authorities or big businesses, but and whether delays in passing legislation on that issue are prepared fundamentally to risk the health and well-being mean that all the work of the Serious Organised Crime of neighbours and communities. Agency and other policing responsibilities that still fell Hon. Members have mentioned the delegated legislation to the police during that period will stop. One point that Committee that met in the House this week to discuss has been made is on waste dumps. One significant providing for the NCA to have full powers in Northern illegal waste dump was found in recent years in my Ireland, and that is something I welcome and that we constituency. It clearly represented an illegal business have worked for. When the legislation was first introduced on the scale of millions of pounds. It emerged because in the Chamber in 2012, we made it clear that our of a random activity by the Northern Ireland Environment concern was not opposition in principle to the role of Agency. It was not known to anybody in policing, the NCA, but a requirement that the NCA should meet anybody in HMRC or anybody in SOCA. Nobody the Patten threshold. We set those terms and they have knew it. Everybody knows that it was essentially sourced been reached. I acknowledge the role of the Home and directed not from my constituency but from South Secretary and her ministerial colleagues in the Home Armagh. It seems strange that the Northern Ireland Office, as well as that of the Minister of Justice in Environment Agency happened to stumble on it. It was Northern Ireland, the NCA, its director, and the PSNI not because of a tip-off or anything else—it was pursuing leadership, in helping to tease through those issues. The another matter and it came to its notice. Given the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee said that a provenance and the scale of the business, it is hard to circumstance has been arrived at that means Northern believe that nobody knew it was going on. Ireland has a scheme of accountability and insight for That brings us back to the concern that other hon. the work of the NCA that he would like for parts of Members have reflected. There is a sense that a blind Great Britain as well. We have arrived at something eye is being turned, and that there is some sort of stronger. set-aside deal going on, where people are saying, “You It must also be noted that the legislation does not can have those rackets up to that point so long as you only give the Policing Board Patten-style oversight and don’t transgress in other matters.” The hon. Member accountability in terms of the work of the NCA. It does for Upper Bann (David Simpson) mentioned the 2p in not only vest particular responsibility in the Chief Constable, the pound. I would certainly refer to deals done between or only ensure that the ombudsman’s reach on issues SOCA and people it was meant to be pursuing in arising with the NCA entirely matches the reach that it respect of criminal assets. Those deals were for pennies has for the PSNI. It also gives the Policing Board in the pound. The story is that such deals were brought responsibility for encouraging public co-operation and before the High Court. What choice would the High support for the work of the NCA, which is hugely Court have but to say, “Here is an agreement between important. People need to understand what the work SOCA and somebody it is pursuing”? Of course the and role of the NCA will be so that they cannot High Court would accept that agreement. Word has it misrepresent it in some sinister way, as some may try to that that sort of agreement not only applies to the do in the aftermath of the debate last month in the individual in that case, but has the status of a group Assembly and the legislation passing through this House. deal—it becomes the going rate for offers to join in on That must be clearly understood, and I am sure that those terms. Members of all parties—certainly all those represented That is one of the issues that the Social Democratic in this House—who are on the Policing Board will want and Labour party was at pains to ensure could be it to discharge that role of assisting in full public addressed in future. We want oversight and accountability co-operation with the NCA, as well as all the other vital mechanisms that apply to the NCA. Many of the roles that will fall to the Policing Board under these questions asked in the debate could be framed, raised arrangements. and properly addressed in the Policing Board’s engagement As we have heard, this debate is not just about fuel with the Chief Constable, and with the director of the crime because there is also the issue of counterfeit NCA, whenever they hear NCA reports and plans, and goods. Again, criminals are using significant networks whenever they monitor the effectiveness of the NCA’s to make real profit for themselves at the expense of work. That all goes to the Policing Board under the consumers. Those consumers are not buying quality or arrangements. It would be right and proper to pursue reliable products; they are buying products that are not that. only substandard but can be dangerous and risky in Another experience of SOCA that I hope will not be many ways. All of a sudden the House supports the repeated under the NCA arrangements is that we had 359 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 360

[Mark Durkan] I am sick, sore and tired. We have heard a unified voice from this side of the House, whether nationalist evidence, which I took to the Secretary of State and or Unionist. We are sick, sore and tired of the hypocrisy others, that MI5 was promising that, if people turned that is fed to us by the shovel-load: that we are somehow and joined dissident organisations and essentially became thick Paddies who have no idea of what is going on in MI5 agents, it could remove a working SOCA interest our country when it comes to crime, and that if we dare in them. We presented evidence that showed that SOCA to expose anything about it, we are told, “Hush, hush, seemed to be pursuing people not so much for SOCA’s you’ll tip the criminals off.” Anyone would think we purposes, but to help frame operations that had MI5 at were a bunch of suckers when it comes to dealing with their heart. We must ensure that none of that happens crime, but we have lived among these criminals for in future. We must ensure that the NCA’s work and the decades. We see how they work. We see the evil they work it carries out in Northern Ireland with the PSNI bring upon our society. We want it dealt with and we under the approval of the Chief Constable has none of want it dealt with now. We are saying that with a unified that about it. If it does, it brings the NCA into disrepute, voice on this side of the House, across all parties. We and compromises the Policing Board’s important role in are no longer prepared to be fed, quite frankly, the bull ensuring the fullest support for, and engagement with, that we are being fed: that this matter is being dealt with the NCA’s future work. by officialdom. Revenue and Customs needs to be more active in Alan Bennett was right when he pointed to hypocrisy. these areas. On many of the cases referred to by other I see it in the officials that I meet and have met daily hon. Members, it has been less than authoritatively since 2009 and since entering this House. We have tried convincing in its silence. More assurance is needed. to deal quietly and discreetly with the issue of how we We need to encourage fully the significant cross-border can tackle serious and organised crime in our society. work that takes place under the Organised Crime Task All we get, frankly, is this hypocrisy: it will be dealt Force. I recognise that that extends not just to the areas with, it will be dealt with. Well, five-and-a-half years of crime that many of us have touched on today, but to later it has not been dealt with. Since 2009, when I came other areas of crime—this was touched on by the hon. off the Organised Crime Task Force board, I have not Member for Belfast East—relating to human trafficking. seen one single inch of progress. I have heard a lot of It was heartening that one of the first engagements of platitudes. We on this side of the House are sick, sore the new UK Anti-Slavery Commissioner was a meeting and tired. We want something done. We want something with the Minister of Justice in Northern Ireland and his done urgently. We want something done that is effective southern counterpart to address this issue. The Under- and actually makes a difference. I believe we are all on Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. the same side and want to see the criminals beaten, but Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), officials are dragging their feet when it comes to sorting will recall that this was one of the issues on which I out this problem. I hope they can get to grips with it. tabled amendments during the Committee stage of the Last week, a national newspaper report by Brian Modern Slavery Bill, to ensure that all aspects of the Flynn dealt with a number of crime issues and I want to Bill would either apply to Northern Ireland or be compatible address those listed in the motion. The first is the with legislation that was then going through the Northern smuggling of tobacco products and the impact it has on Ireland Assembly. In particular, I wanted to ensure that our economy. Every crate of smuggled tobacco products the new commissioner would be able to consider issues puts £1 million into the coffers of the criminals, and in Northern Ireland, and the performance of enforcement 40% of all cigarettes smoked across the United Kingdom agencies not just in Northern Ireland but as they operated are either counterfeit or smuggled. The vast majority of and liaised and engaged with their counterparts in the that money goes into the coffers of the IRA. In fact, last south as well. year it was estimated that it achieved about £22 million I am very glad that we have legislation not just in from that enterprise. respect of the NCA, but modern slavery provisions. Some of us take a different view of plain packaging, That puts us in a stronger position to address different but under new regulations it is estimated that the profit aspects of serious crime as they happen in Northern margin will increase to ¤120 million, which is £87 million. Ireland and across the border. That is enough money, as we would say locally, to choke a donkey. The people engaged in this serious organised 4.41 pm crime are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): At the outset, I plain packaging after today’s vote because, whether we congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South are for or against plain packaging—I respect the views Antrim (Dr McCrea) on securing this very important of those who support it for health reasons—the legislation debate and on introducing it in such a powerful way. I is defective on the issue of tracking and tracing. thank all Members from across the House who have At present, the manufacturing of cigarette boxes spoken, but I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member involves placing an electronic track-and-trace system in for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), the Labour each box. The legitimate manufacturer of the cigarette Front-Bench Spokesman. He has put on the record packet gives those track-and-trace numbers to the police some incredibly startling facts that require answers. and customs, and the police can at any time place the Last week, Alan Bennett, the famed playwright, when packet on a hand-held machine in order to see the date interviewed on “World at One”, was asked to outline and location of manufacture. Under the defective delegated for us the most important achievement of this nation. legislation that went through the House today, that has After pondering on whether it should be the National been removed and packs cannot have track-and-trace. Trust or our physical heritage, he said very clearly that it The Government have told me privately, “We’ll introduce was English hypocrisy. it later on,”but apparently the earliest it can be introduced 361 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 362 under the delegated legislation is in about three years. single jot or tittle removed from it. The legislation, There is a bonanza coming for the next three years, which will be pushed through, will push through a because cigarette packets will have no track-and-trace defective marker that the criminals will welcome and capability. Criminals out there are rubbing their hands that they know they can remove. in glee because an effective security measure has now How do I know that it can be removed? Today, we been removed from cigarette packets. The hypocrisy have placed in the Library a report that was confidential stinks to heaven. until yesterday, written by four academics, one from The second issue that has taken up a lot of time in Queen’s university. The report, entitled “Distillation of this debate is that of fuel laundering and fuel fraud, and fuel markers”, makes a number of startling claims, it is a most serious crime. The hon. Member for which I want to put on the record. In its opening Birmingham, Erdington asked some very serious questions. section, it states: Indeed, he and my hon. Friend the Member for Upper “Distillation is a very simple and highly cost-effective way of Bann (David Simpson) asked 13 specific questions that removing a marker and has a key advantage over many of the have not yet been answered, and this House is entitled methods cited above in that there is no laundering residue for the to answers. criminal to dispose of.” Why would the Government continue in January My hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy 2015 to designate in legislation the Dow fuel marker Wilson) can rest tonight in the knowledge that in future when they knew a year ago that it was not fit for when criminals distil fuel and remove markers from it purpose, being completely launderable using basic science? there will no longer be terrible sludge and waste pumped The Hydrocarbon Oil (Marking and Designated Markers) into our rivers. This marker is so simply removed that it (Amendment) Regulations 2015 will come into force on can be distilled off the top of fuel without creating any 1 April and they indicate the precise ingredients of the terrible after-pollution. The simplicity of the distillation Dow marker. Under law, believe it or not, we have to tell process is incredibly beneficial to the criminals. the world what makes up the Dow marker. That is how The report goes on to state: pathetic the hypocrisy of our country is: we have to tell “Given the simplicity of distillation it is apparent that an the criminals that publicly. The Minister said tonight authority would be foolhardy to employ a marker whose boiling that the Labour Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Member point fell just in or entirely outside the boiling range of the fuel to for Birmingham, Erdington, should not have read out a be protected.” letter as it could have tipped certain people off, yet we That is exactly what Dow has done. It has created a publish in black and white the exact ingredients that go marker that is effective until just below boiling point, so into the Dow marker. The statutory instrument is well people can boil the marker away without causing any timed, because it comes into effect on 1 April, April harm and it vanishes up into the heavens. It is the devil’s fools’ day. What fools we are for just going along with share. He gets his share and the criminals get theirs. that and accepting the regulations, which publish what That is what is happening as a result of the new fuel will be in the fuel and tip off scientists, legitimate and marker. otherwise, about what is in the recipe for the Dow The report stated that the academics took a British marker and what they therefore need to do to remove it. piece of scientific equipment, a marker that was found If the marker was effective, that would not matter, worthy of being put into British fuel, and tested it because we would have those people and could prevent against the Dow marker. It stated this, after testing both them from doing that. However, it is not effective and markers: the Government knew that it was not effective a year “These results clearly indicate that the Dow marker can effectively ago. The Opposition spokesman put on the record the be removed by simple distillation and successfully separated from letter from 9 July 2014 from the then Treasury Minister, the diesel distillate.” the right hon. Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), In other words, the fuel can be separated completely to the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs from the marker and sold as unabated fuel that is no Committee, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury longer marked. (Mr Robertson), telling him that the information about the theoretical weaknesses in the fuel could alert fraudsters. Dr Murrison: The hon. Gentleman is making a speech The idea was that he should just hush it up and not tell in his usual robust fashion, but it is important to put on anyone and the Government would keep working on it. the record the difference between a laboratory analysis The Government then went on to say that there was and scaling up to field operations. I think he needs to insufficient evidence to show that the process of distilling reflect that in his contribution. the fuel was “a viable option commercially on a large scale for effective Ian Paisley: I am delighted by that, because I am laundering of rebated fuels, although HMRC are continuing to going to reflect that point now and I thank the Minister investigate these claims.” for encouraging me to do so. The then Treasury Minister I will come to the question of whether that can be done said that there was insufficient evidence that the process effectively and economically, but let me turn first to the was a viable commercial option, which I think is the question of hushing things up. Members of the Northern point the Minister has just made: “Yes, you can do this Ireland Affairs Committee were prepared to sit for in a lab, but could you really do it in the field?” Well, the some time and give the Government the opportunity to report that is now in the Library goes into this, under a change things and to make a move. We waited from last section entitled, “Economics of distillation”: July and promises were made through August, September “The capital cost of a distillation plant suitable for laundering and October. Bigger promises were made in December out a marker from fuel is low. Cost for off the shelf plant can be and, at the turn of the year, we were told that things as little as…£12k”. would be changed. They have not been changed and the For an initial outlay of £12,000 for a small plant, the April fools’ day legislation will be put in place without a criminals could make about £16,000 per day, after they 363 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 364

[Ian Paisley] a specific roadside test was not specifically asked for, his view was—and he is the expert—that it was critical have laundered the product, or 5.8 million quid a year—that because it was the one measure through which the is pretty economical in my books; that is pretty cost-effective. system could be policed. I will come to the in-field testing in a minute, so I hope One of the companies that tendered brought forward the Minister will brace himself, because it gets even a roadside test capability—a kit that is the size of a better. laptop. If a drop of fuel was put on to a pad, the kit The report goes on: could detect within two and a half minutes where and “Even taking into account the worst case scenario presented when the fuel was bought—both the location and time. above, a 160kW distillation laundering plant would generate huge That is how sophisticated the marker was, and the profits with a payback in just under a fortnight. If this process roadside test could be done in two and half minutes. was refined with heat regeneration and vacuum distillation, it would be quite feasible to double the capacity of this system. A The Dow marker has no roadside capability. In fact, small 1MW industrial unit could operate 6 of these 160kW after the April fools’ day legislation comes into place, let systems, generating clear profit of approximately £92,000 per day me explain what will happen. If an official stops a and a payback period of less than 2 weeks. Such a 960kW vehicle and takes a sample from it, he will have to send laundering facility would be capable of generating an annual it away to the Government’s own plant. Three weeks profit of approximately £33.5 million.” later, the sample will be returned and the result on This is a feasible, cheap alternative for gangsters and whether the Dow marker remains or has been removed criminals. This report, which is in the Library of the will be provided. Why should we have to wait three House, is by a credible group of scientists and, critically, weeks? Unless someone has a very efficient car, as my presented in such a way that if it is wrong, the Dow hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy chemical company could sue the pants of these people. Wilson) does, the fuel will be evaporated within days. But it won’t go near it—it won’t even address the points made. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): The I understand that in-field testing was carried out on hon. Gentleman is making a technical argument on this four occasions. The one at Bellingham, which my hon. issue, displaying a lot of knowledge that is obviously Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) garnered from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee mentioned, was not a small test; it was a test of 30,000 inquiry.Is he aware of the level and number of prosecutions litres of fuel distilled successfully—it was just distilled resulting from illegal fuel laundering? Is it documented off. Another test was carried out in Northern Ireland, on a year-on-year basis? and another test of a similarly large quantity, carried out by a scientist, Professor J. J. Leahy, in the Republic Ian Paisley: I understand that the level of prosecutions of Ireland, also proved that this material could be is woeful—zero. That is one of the driving forces that distilled off. Queen’s university also carried out a test, show why we need a marker that actually works, and it but sadly, after it reported privately to officials last year, explains why some of us are so passionate about this the official response to the professor at Queen’s university issue. We know the type of villains and individuals who was this: “You’d better tell us where that illegal plant are carrying this out, and it would be valuable if we you’ve just set up is, because we want to put it out of could get them behind bars or at least stop them in this business.” I can take a joke, but I do not think that was a particular aspect of their criminality. Yes, they will turn joke—it is almost like they were telling him for daring to something else, but at least we would have blocked to undermine what officials were doing. It is hypocrisy. off one section of activity for them. The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The prosecution level is woefully zero, Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): As well as congratulating and it will remain zero because of this defective marker. the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, I My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the huge amount Simpson) asked why the Government would not support of personal commitment he has put into this issue. Will their own world-leading British science company whose he explain why, despite the evidence that the Select fuel markers are the only recommended IMS-proven Committee saw, the Government, officials and the indelible markers. This is important. The final report on authorities have been so singularly afraid to go down the IMS procedure, which was a tendering process the route we suggested? between the Republic of Ireland revenue authorities and our own HMRC, provided two options. One was to Ian Paisley: I think that deserves a more detailed implement the Dow marker—it listed what it was—and answer than a brief response at this point, so I will come the other was to introduce two markers: the Dow marker back to the matter. The hon. Lady, my friend, puts her and the British company’s marker, which would provide finger on a very important and worrying point. This something with which to confuse the criminals. There was a worrying trend that we watched with our own would be a choice of markers, allowing consideration of eyes when we tried to deal with this matter. which one went in one month and which one did not go I asked the Minister earlier whether there was roadside in. That was one of the options provided, but that capability in detecting this marker in our fuel, but he course of action was not chosen, but it could still be did not quite get the right end of the stick. I must deal chosen today. with this critical issue. The head of the oils fraud The Government could amend the April Fool’s day section takes the lead in dealing with fuel laundering in legislation. They could introduce another statutory Northern Ireland. He is an important official in the instrument tomorrow, providing for a different marker, department. He gave evidence to our Select Committee and I hope that they will. I hope that, following today’s in 2013, and he told us that the IMS tendering process debate, they will see how foolish they have been in for the new fuel marker was incredibly important. Although following the line they have followed. Some of us never 365 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 366 wanted this debate to take place. We wanted the I think that we deserve answers to those questions, Government to take action and solve the problem, but because we have waited long enough. We have pushed unfortunately we have been pushed to this point. I think this issue for five years—we have pushed it in the Select it will be clear from the anger that has been expressed Committee—and we have expected answers, but, to today by members of several parties that we are all date, we have been let down. rightly concerned about what is going on. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington asked 5.9 pm why, given that the IMS had been a joint United Kingdom- The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Republic of Ireland process, an IMS for a single launderable Home Department (Karen Bradley): I congratulate the dye marker had been awarded when the Government hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) on knew that they needed a minimum of two indelible introducing the debate and the hon. Member for North markers. Why—this is another question that was asked Antrim (Ian Paisley) on his concluding comments. It today—was technology awarded to Dow when no roadside has been an interesting and passionate debate and in my test was available? closing remarks I will endeavour to address the points Who has the contract for HMRC fuel marker testing, that were made. and did the testing company have anything to do with As we heard, serious and organised criminal groups the evaluation and final recommendation group? That do not operate in isolated pockets. We know, for instance, very important question goes to the heart of the IMS that they exploit the land border between Northern procedure. The allegation that something went awry Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. As the motion between whoever was carrying out the evaluation of the reminds us, they are engaged in a range of crimes, tests and the company that was awarded the final contract including fuel smuggling, the supply of counterfeit medicines is very serious, and deserves to be answered by Ministers. and electrical goods, and fraudulent trading in numerous products to evade VAT or make illegal repayment claims. We have seen the answers to those questions. We VAT fraud associated with tobacco and alcohol has know what has gone on. I actually feel sorry for the become more sophisticated and more multinational, Minister, because he has been dropped into this debate and the internet has opened more opportunities for the without having been properly briefed about what has criminals. The cost to the Treasury is substantial and gone on and how serious the position is. the impact is felt in communities throughout Northern In 2012, the HMRC director Mike Norgrove gave Ireland. evidence to the Select Committee. He had been offered A number of hon. Members referred to the fact that the chance to see the new marker being used in Brazil. these are not victimless crimes. The hon. Member for Why did he turn down that opportunity? I believe that Belfast East (Naomi Long), my hon. Friend the Member that question was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) and the hon. Member for Upper Bann. for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made that point explicitly, Why would the Government cover up a £1 billion and they are right. The effect of fuel laundering, which fraud when a British scientific solution already exists? has been a major part of the discussion, means that it is clearly not victimless. The hon. Member for Belfast One of the last questions that were asked was: the East spoke about the impact on the vehicles of unsuspecting Government must be aware that the Dow Chemical purchasers of illicit fuel. The impact on us all from the Company was fined $1.1 billion in 2013 in a fraudulent loss of that tax revenue means that we have less tax bribery case, so why was the company allowed to continue from which to pay for much-needed teachers, nurses to engage in the IMS tender process? and police officers. People purchasing that fuel are Opposition Members have asked important and pertinent aiding and abetting the criminals. This is not victimless questions that deserve to be answered. In an intervention, crime. The people involved in such criminality are not the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) asked me cheeky scoundrels. This is serious crime that is a threat why this was happening. I think that there has been a to us all. deliberate turning of a blind eye. The hon. Member for Our strategic approach needs to be tightly co-ordinated Foyle (Mark Durkan) put his finger on it when he said to counter that threat; otherwise, serious and organised that a company had operated illegally in his constituency, criminals will exploit the gaps. We need to ensure that and that it was based in South Armagh. I have the same measures are in place relentlessly to disrupt serious and problem in my constituency. North Antrim could not organised criminals, stop people getting involved in be any further from South Armagh, but we have a fuel crime and strengthen our protection against the criminals. station that changes its name regularly to avoid tax, and The UK Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly regularly sells illicit fuels to unsuspecting motorists. are doing exactly that. The launch in 2013 of the Sometimes it changes its name to “Taxco”, just for a National Crime Agency and the serious and organised laugh, to rub the officials’ noses in it. On other occasions, crime strategy represented a step change in our approach. it changes its name to “Taxnoco”. It looks like “Texaco”. The NCA and the 4 Ps strategy are already making a The name is spelt like that deliberately to embarrass difference, leading to a more co-ordinated response officialdom, and nothing is ever done about it. across the whole United Kingdom. As a result, we have My hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim spelt improved our understanding of the threat, strengthened out loud and clear the problem of pollution that was co-operation with partners, invested in better capabilities associated with this crime—the leaking of waste into and introduced important new legislation. our lakes and river courses. With the new Dow marker, Implementation of the serious and organised crime that will no longer be a problem, because it is now strategy is consistent with the approach in Northern evaporating from our fuel. In the words of Alan Bennett, Ireland, where the Organised Crime Task Force enables the hypocrisy will continue. law enforcement agencies to work alongside other 367 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 368

[Karen Bradley] Wilson), for Belfast East and for Upper Bann (David Simpson)—and I am sure there were more—raised that Government bodies and the private sector to share point. knowledge and tackle organised crime in partnership and to deliver the objectives of Northern Ireland’s Ian Paisley: The Minister refers to some of my party organised crime strategy for 2014-16. Leading the colleagues. My hon. Friends the Members for South operational fight are the PSNI, HMRC and the National Antrim (Dr McCrea) and for Upper Bann (David Simpson) Crime Agency. mean no discourtesy to the Minister, whom I know they are very fond of, but they have had to leave the Chamber The NCA works closely with its partners to investigate because of a meeting tomorrow morning with a Minister the activities of organised criminal groups, including in Northern Ireland. I hope the Minister will appreciate those involved in fuel smuggling, fuel laundering and that they had to catch their flight. the counterfeiting of consumer goods. The NCA is a key member of the OCTF in Northern Ireland, providing Karen Bradley: I appreciate that intervention, apart specialist knowledge, support and expertise. It continues from anything else because I am not going to have to to support the PSNI through the exchange of intelligence answer yet another question from those hon. Gentlemen, and information relating to Northern Ireland, including who gave me a significant number to try to address. I do instances where the situation has required constabulary understand completely the time pressures we all face, powers to be exercised. The NCA is undertaking civil however. recovery investigations in Northern Ireland, where fuel laundering and cigarette smuggling are believed to be I understand that HMRC is making sure it has the the underlying criminality. best and most appropriate roadside marker testing equipment, further to strengthen testing capability. From It is clear that fuel smuggling and laundering is a day one of the new marker implementation, its road major problem in Northern Ireland. I was interested in fuel testing units will be able to use their existing battery many of the points that were raised, including the of tests to identify suspicious samples, and I should comments of the hon. Member for Belfast East about repeat the point that this is not a replacement marker criminals. If something seems too good to be true, it initially; this is a running-alongside marker with the probably is too good to be true. This is a supply chain existing marker, to ensure we have full evidence and issue that the hon. Member for Foyle and I explored at information. I also understand that, in addition, HMRC length when we served together on the Committee expects to have ground-breaking roadside testing equipment considering the Modern Slavery Bill. He is right to by the summer. commend the Bill for covering Northern Ireland where The hon. Member for North Antrim made a number necessary, as does the remit of the commissioner. He of points and I understand that HMRC has written to made an interesting point about the impact on human him on many of them, in particular the point about the trafficking and modern slavery. Sometimes we say that new marker being easily laundered and that that can be the criminality of organised crime groups lies in drugs done on a commercial scale. I urge him to provide trafficking, firearms trafficking or people trafficking, details of any trials about which he believes HMRC but in reality those groups are involved in all forms of may be unaware. It does want to review the report he criminality. That was brought home to us all by the has laid in the House, and it will respond to him. The dreadful case of the container in Tilbury docks with Government will of course review the report as well, 35 Sikh people in it, including one who, sadly, died in and HMRC has investigated whether this can be done transit. Part of the investigation of that incident involved a on a large scale. The hon. Gentleman says he has seen fuel laundering plant. That brings it home that this is the test to prove that that is the case. If he provides that not a victimless crime; it is a crime that affects us all, evidence to HMRC, it will review the report and write and those criminals are nasty people who want to harm to him, but the only large-scale test that we are aware us and are prepared to go to great lengths and hurt has been undertaken, which was with 25,000 litres, fully many people through different types of criminality to supported HMRC’s conclusion that this is not easily make money from organised crime. translated to large-scale operations in the field. We do We have heard from my fellow Minister, my hon. Friend take these claims very seriously, however, and HMRC the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), will look at any reports that the hon. Gentleman provides. that the Government have a comprehensive strategy in The hon. Member for South Antrim talked about the place to tackle fuel fraud and crime and it is working. number of arrests and prosecutions for this crime. In HMRC’s latest figures indicate the illicit market share the period 2011-14 there was a total of 56 arrests for of diesel for Northern Ireland has fallen from 26% to fuel fraud, and 47 of them were in Northern Ireland, 13%. Co-operation and intelligence sharing through the while just nine were in the rest of the United Kingdom. Organised Crime Task Force and the Cross Border Fuel We have not, of course, yet got the full figures for Fraud Enforcement Group has been invaluable in tackling 2014-15, but the latest information is that there were oil fraud, including fuel smuggling and laundering, and 25 arrests, 13 of which were in Northern Ireland and I remind the House that in 2013-14 HMRC dismantled 12 in the rest of the UK. That shows that we take this 38 laundering plants, closed 79 huckster sites and seized crime very seriously, including in Northern Ireland. over half a million litres of illicit fuel in Northern Confiscation was also mentioned. In 2013-14, the last Ireland. year for which we have figures, £113,001 was applied on confiscation orders relating to this type of crime, of As has been said, a new fuel marker will come in on which £113,000 related to confiscation orders in Northern 1 April. Many Members, including the hon. Members Ireland, with only £1 relating to the rest of the United for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), for East Antrim (Sammy Kingdom. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington 369 Cross-border Crime11 MARCH 2015 Cross-border Crime 370 and I have enjoyed many debates on the topic of asset We agree that, so far, not enough has been recovered, recovery, and we agree that we want to see more confiscation but with these enhanced powers, the NCA, working orders and more recovery. The Government take this with law enforcement, will be able to recover more. I issue seriously and progress is being made. urge the courts to ensure that confiscation orders are HMRC’s anti-smuggling strategy is effective, and we applied whenever possible, and that compensation orders continuously adapt it to accommodate changes in criminal for victims are also put in place. behaviour. Since it was first launched, we have reduced The hon. Member for Foyle also raised concerns the illicit cigarette market by half and the illicit hand-rolling about engagement with communities. The Crime and tobacco market by a third, but we all recognise that Courts Act 2013 (National Crime Agency and Proceeds more can be done. The hon. Member for East Antrim of Crime) (Northern Ireland) Order 2015 that we approved (Sammy Wilson) contributed to yesterday’s debate on yesterday provides that the Northern Ireland Policing the order to bring the National Crime Agency into Board must make arrangements for obtaining the Northern Ireland. I want to put it on record that, in co-operation of the public with the NCA in the prevention regard to the priorities for policing and the NCA in of crime. The hon. Gentleman will recall that, as part of Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Policing Board the Justice Minister’s proposal paper, there will also be will agree the NCA annual plan. That will allow key a requirement for NCA officers to have a duty to secure crime types, which may include fuel laundering, to be the support of, and to act in co-operation with, the local prioritised for the NCA in Northern Ireland. community. Additionally, the order provides that the One of the blockages to having full support in Northern NCA’s director general must obtain the Policing Board’s Ireland has been the limit to the NCA’s ability to prior consent to the Northern Ireland aspects of the provide support to HMRC and the PSNI in Northern NCA’s annual plan. Ireland. That related to the powers issue, and thankfully Serious and organised criminal groups do not respect that issue is now resolved. Yesterday, we debated and borders or force boundaries. The PSNI estimates that approved in Committee here, and in another place, the there are around 150 organised crime groups active in draft Crime and Courts Act 2013 (National Crime Northern Ireland. Nearly a third of those groups are Agency and Proceeds of Crime) (Northern Ireland) assessed as having links to international criminality, Order 2015. The order will enable the NCA to operate and another third are linked to criminality in the rest of with police powers in Northern Ireland from around the UK and the Republic of Ireland. HMRC operates the end of May.It puts in place accountability arrangements across the UK as a whole, and the National Crime for the NCA that have been agreed with the Northern Agency has both national and international reach. They Ireland parties. It also extends civil recovery provisions are working more closely than ever before with the and civil recovery investigation provisions under the PSNI and other partners to disrupt organised criminal Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 to Northern Ireland. This groups undertaking fuel laundering and smuggling in will increase activity and improve performance, alongside Northern Ireland and to deny criminals the proceeds of the efforts of other accredited financial investigators in that crime. As has been said, we will not oppose this Northern Ireland, such as the Serious Fraud Office, the motion, and I want to thank everybody for the debate. I PSNI and the Environment Agency. Perhaps that will look forward to Northern Ireland seeing the benefits of answer the question from the hon. Member for Foyle the NCA that the rest of the UK has benefited from about waste crime. since October 2013. We are also strengthening the provisions of the Proceeds Question put and agreed to. of Crime Act through the Serious Crime Act 2015. The Resolved, hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington and I served That this House notes with concern the continued prevalence on the Committee that considered that legislation. Its of serious organised criminal activity in Northern Ireland on a provisions will make it harder for criminals to move, cross-border basis in relation to fuel smuggling, fuel laundering hide and use the proceeds of crime through the better and the counterfeiting of consumer goods; recognises that this has had a significant and detrimental impact on HM Treasury; enforcement of existing court orders and the better regrets the lack of prosecutions in relation to this activity; and recovery of hidden assets overseas. These steps are calls on the Government to ensure greater co-operation between important, as denying criminals the proceeds of crime is HM Revenue and Customs, the National Crime Agency and the one of the most effective ways of disrupting their activities. PSNI so that this criminal activity can be eradicated. 371 11 MARCH 2015 Ark Pension Schemes 372

Ark Pension Schemes the internet, he saw an advertisement that promised that he could “release 50%” of his “pension tax free”. The Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House scheme claimed to be do now adjourn.—(Mark Lancaster.) “registered with HMRC, and the Pension Regulator”. It was under the name of “Ark” pensions, with Minerva 5.25 pm and Athena as trustees. Ark claimed around that time that Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Ind): I begin by expressing “both HMRC and the FSA”— my personal gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for selecting this important subject for an Adjournment debate this evening. the Financial Services Authority, as was— The Ark pension schemes were put in place a few years “have conducted detailed enquiries (with the full cooperation of ago to offer an apparently lawful method by which Ark) but neither has seen fit to take any action”. participants could realise a substantial proportion of Ark also claimed that the schemes were lawful and that their pension pot many years before the relevant retirement it had been advised so by leading counsel. age. At the heart of these schemes was a structure called Mr Smith decided to participate in the Ark scheme. a “maximising pension value arrangement”—MPVA. He duly completed all the application forms, and transferred That involved a pension reciprocation plan by which the whole of his pension pot of £122,000 from Standard members could gain access to their pension capital Life to Ark. His wife also transferred her smaller pension prior to the minimum retirement age without, it was pot of £20,000 to Ark. The issues raised by her case are claimed by its promoters, breaching Her Majesty’s Revenue the same, so for simplicity’s sake I shall concentrate on and Customs rules. That was achieved by one of the Mr Smith’s position in this debate. schemes under the control of the trustees “loaning” funds to a member of another scheme under their On 20 April 2011, Mr Smith received from Ark a control and, reciprocally, the same amount being “loaned” cheque for £58,725—50% of his pot, less a 5% charge back to a member of the first scheme. and other charges levied by Ark. Two weeks later, on 6 May 2011, Mr Smith, as he had anticipated, was made In a High Court judgment in December 2011 on the redundant for the second time in less than a year. Three Ark schemes, Mr Justice Bean said that the arrangements, weeks after that, on 31 May 2011, the Pensions Regulator including the MPVA loans, were “beyond the scope” of decided to impose independent trustees, Dalriada, in the trustees’ powers. They were “made for ulterior motives” place of those operating the Ark schemes, owing to and were a “concerns over the behaviour of the previous trustees.” “fraud on the trustees’ powers.” Fourteen days later, on 14 June 2011, Dalriada wrote to According to Mr Justice Bean, the Ark schemes in all Ark members, including my constituent Mr Smith, question had funds originally of approximately £25 million, to say that they had been advised by leading counsel with a total membership of at least 487 members. Those that there was a “strong possibility” that the MPVA members were from across the United Kingdom, and arrangements by Ark were void. Dalriada said: their situation has been a matter of concern to many “This would mean that the arrangements would not be recognised Members of this House. One of those scheme members, as ever having taken effect.” however, is my constituent. For reasons that are readily The subsequent court action between Dalriada and the understandable, he does not wish to be publicly identified, original Ark trustees resulted in the judgment of Mr Justice so although I have provided the Minister with his full Bean, to which I have already referred, declaring that, details in confidence, in this debate I will refer to him as Dalriada had anticipated, the MPVA arrangements simply as Mr Smith. were indeed void. The judgment has not been appealed, Mr Smith is in his late 40s. At 18, he showed rather and therefore stands. more foresight than is usual for people of that age and As soon as Mr Smith had had a chance to digest the took out membership of a private pension scheme, implications of both the Pensions Regulator’s decision initially with Britannic Assurance but this was later to impose different trustees and the High Court decision, transferred to Standard Life. After almost a quarter of he took the initiative and asked his accountant to a century paying into the scheme, he decided in 2008 to contact HMRC about his likely liability to pay tax on stop paying his monthly instalments, which had latterly the £58,000 received from Ark pensions in April 2011. been about £300 per month. The earliest payout date In a letter to me on 24 February 2014, the chief executive under the scheme was 2022, at age 55. The total pension of HMRC, Lin Homer, said: pot—the fund—was valued at £122,000 in 2011. Mr Smith “Mr [Smith] ... cooperated throughout the process.... and in had for almost the whole of his working life been January 2014 he made the decision to make a payment” employed in a specialist sector of the building supplies to HMRC industry, as a salesman, and had been employed by the same company for 23 years. However, as one of the “on account in the sum of £32,300.” many consequences of the 2008 world financial crisis, This sum is currently held on Mr Smith’s self-assessment that company went into liquidation in 2010, and his job account, and to date HMRC has not raised an assessment with it was no more. He found employment with another about it. firm in the same sector, but by February 2011 it became Over the past few years, I have come to know Mr Smith apparent to Mr Smith that because of trading conditions very well. He is a thoroughly decent, honourable man. he was likely to be made redundant from that firm, too. He is expert in his own field of work, but not in pension Given that uncertainty, compounded by his age, law. He was led to believe that this MPVA method of Mr Smith thought that the best thing he could do was releasing funds early from his pension account was to set up a shop in the sector and work for himself. On entirely lawful. Mr Smith now finds himself in limbo. 373 Ark Pension Schemes11 MARCH 2015 Ark Pension Schemes 374

I hope that in this short debate the Minister can As the right hon. Gentleman outlined, the Ark pension clarify what the future holds for Mr Smith and other schemes are a number of schemes that were administered members of the Ark schemes. What Mr Smith most by Ark Business Consulting. The schemes operated a wants is to be put back to the status quo ante. In other pensions reciprocation plan that involved loans being words, he refunds the total of what he has received from paid between schemes and their respective members. Ark—£58,000—and it is invested by respectable trustees That was on the basis that members could access a in the usual way, and the benefits of his pension pot proportion of their pension savings without breaching then become available to him, in the usual way, from the tax rules intended to ensure that members access their age of 55. Of that sum, £26,000 would be paid direct by tax-relieved pension savings only from age 55, under a him, and the other £32,300, which is currently held in a practice known as pension liberation. suspense account by HMRC, would be paid by HMRC The right hon. Gentleman raised a number of concerns to the new trustees. That seems to be entirely consistent about the tax implications for individuals involved in with the statement of the new trustees, Dalriada, that if, the schemes. It might help if I set out the tax rules in a as indeed happened, the MPVA arrangements were little more detail before turning to the particular points declared void, then they would he raised. Tax relief is provided on pensions savings “not be recognised as ever having taken effect.” with the expectation that the funds are used by the My first and key question to the Minister is therefore member to provide benefits later in life. The tax rules this: can what Mr Smith is seeking happen, and if therefore set out the various payments that a pension not—with respect—why not? Mr Smith fears that he scheme is authorised to make to, or on behalf of, a may end up being the subject of a double whammy: member. They include payments of authorised benefits— first, he will have to pay the £32,000 in tax on the pensions and lump sums—as well as such payments as moneys released; and secondly, he will then find that the transfers to another registered pension scheme. To be £61,000—the 50%—that was left in his pension pot an authorised payment, these benefits cannot be paid under the arrangement is considerably reduced in value before the minimum pension age, currently 55. because of poor decisions by the Ark trustees, even Where payments are made that are not authorised, though they had control of his moneys for less than six they are classed as “unauthorised payments” and are weeks. As I have already mentioned, HMRC has yet subject to certain tax charges. These charges are intended formally to raise an assessment against Mr Smith, so to recover the tax relief previously given on the savings, my second question to the Minister is this: are Mr as they have not been used as intended by the tax rules. Smith’s fears justified, and when is HMRC likely to Where savings are taken before age 55, this is an decide whether or not to require the payment of the “unauthorised payment” and tax charges will apply. A £32,300 held in the suspense account against a tax loan made to a member from a registered pension in liability? connection with their pension savings is also an My third question builds on the second. Mr Smith “unauthorised payment”. This guarantees fairness to fears that a considerable part of his outstanding pension the taxpayer and ensures that pensions are not simply pot will be absorbed by fees and legal costs incurred by used as a tax-efficient savings tool. HMRC is looking the new Dalriada trustees. Are those rational fears? into whether the payments made to the members of the My fourth and final set of questions relates to the Ark schemes are authorised by the tax rules. assertion that Ark claimed its scheme was The tax position in relation to the Ark pension schemes “registered with HMRC and the Pensions Regulator”. is by no means straightforward. The right hon. Gentleman Are those claims correct? If they are, does that not asked whether, if the loans are repaid, they can be imply that some responsibility for what has happened treated for tax purposes as though they had never to individuals such as Mr Smith, who were acting in happened. That is not the case, as loans are “payments” good faith, must lie with HMRC and the Pensions for the purposes of the tax legislation under consideration, Regulator? If Ark’s claims are not correct—they were whether or not they are repaid. He asked why we cannot claims that my constituent and, I suspect, every other return to the status quo ante. To do otherwise than treat person who became a member of the schemes relied loans as “payments” would enable people to withdraw on—and they were fraudulent, what civil and criminal funds early from their pension pots without any tax action is being taken against those responsible? implications, and then return them to their pension pots at some point in the future if they so wished, with no In short, it seems to me that my constituent has been consequences. Clearly, we do not want to encourage the innocent victim of an elaborate and sophisticated that type of speculative behaviour. The rules essentially arrangement designed to evade our pension laws. I have comply with the principles that have been in place since no sympathy for the architects of the scam or for those tax relief was introduced many years ago. advising them. I have every sympathy for Mr Smith and his wife, and indeed for others in the same situation. I very much hope that the Minister does too and that he Mr Straw: Of course I accept, as does, I think, can offer the couple some better hope for their future. everyone in this House, that if we are going to have arrangements by which people are able to save up for 5.37 pm their retirement and to gain tax advantages in doing so, we cannot, in principle, have a situation where, in advance The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David of their retirement age, they can simply pick and choose Gauke): I congratulate the right hon. Member for Blackburn what they take out of the scheme, or not. However, does (Mr Straw) on securing the debate and on setting out the Minister recognise the inequity of the fact that my his case so clearly and with such forensic skill, which constituent, who has acted in good faith, has been the has been a characteristic of his role as a Member of victim of circumstances where he believed that what Parliament for some 36 years. was happening was lawful—as indeed, at the time, it 375 Ark Pension Schemes11 MARCH 2015 Ark Pension Schemes 376

[Mr Straw] less, it faces a challenge in recovering the assets. I suspect that Dalriada as the trustee is better placed to was—and accept that, in the special circumstances in give an estimate of the risks of legal costs substantially which he finds himself, arrangements ought to be made diminishing the pension pot in the Ark scheme. by which he can return to the status quo ante, because The right hon. Gentleman has raised the concern that otherwise he will suffer a huge penalty for no benefit? Ark scheme members entered the arrangements in good faith. As I have mentioned, Dalriada was appointed Mr Gauke: The right hon. Gentleman puts his because the schemes were suspected of being involved constituent’s case very well. In the situation as he describes in pension liberation. He will doubtless be aware that it, it is hard not to be sympathetic to an individual pension liberation is a threat to individuals’ hard-earned placed in that position. However, the law is very clear pensions savings. It occurs where a scheme is set up to that a loan payment of this sort constitutes a “payment”, enable someone to access their pensions savings early— and certain consequences follow. I take his point, and usually before age 55. Scheme promoters often fail to this may well be a hard case. The challenge arises if we tell people about the tax consequences of accessing have a situation whereby people are able at least to their pension savings early, and promoters often charge attempt to access some of their pension pot, and then high fees. In some cases, people are promised cash if subsequently find, for one reason or another, that that they invest their pension funds in esoteric investments, was not the right thing to do. However, simply putting on which a high return is promised, and people them in the position they were in to begin with is, to use unfortunately often lose all their pension savings in a snooker term, a bit of a shot to nothing. Although those cases. this might be unfair—I am sure that it is—on the right hon. Gentleman’s constituent, others who are acting in Some products claim to unlock, liberate or provide not quite such a degree of good faith might attempt to early access to pension savings without giving rise to tax liberate, as it were, their pension in the hope that it does charges. That is not true: anyone receiving money from not get picked up, and in the knowledge that if it does, their pension scheme before the age of 55 will normally they are in no worse a situation. That is one of the be subject to tax charges aimed at recovering tax reliefs. challenges that a Government of any description would It is therefore vital for individuals to recognise the face, and that is why the law in this area has been tightly danger of entering into such schemes. If they choose to drawn for many years. access their pensions savings early, they need to be aware of the tax charges and risks. HMRC is continuing In the right hon. Gentleman’s second question, he to take action in pursuit of those who deliberately bend asked when the matter might be settled so that he could or break the rules by offering schemes to liberate pensions provide some certainty for his constituent. I fear that I savings. That is part of a continuous strategy to combat cannot provide such certainty about when the tax position pension liberation, as is the ongoing review of pension will be settled. This is a complex case, and it may tax legislation. The Government will not hesitate to ultimately be for the tax tribunal to determine the make further changes if necessary. correct tax position. Until that has been determined, it will not be possible for HMRC to settle the specific case, and that timetable is not within the control of Mr Straw: It may be that the Minister is coming to HMRC. I have asked HMRC when it anticipates dealing my fourth question, but I would be grateful to know with this case, but given that it will have to go to a whether it is correct, as my constituent claims, that Ark tribunal, HMRC is not willing to provide a precise date. held out that it was regulated by HMRC and the The Government have a duty, not least to the taxpayer, Pensions Regulator. If that is correct, does he believe to apply the legislation fairly and consistently in line that any responsibility for the fact that the scheme was with statutory provisions. Where a liability to tax arises, advertised in that way rests with those two regulators? the normal rules in relation to interest accruing on any outstanding tax charge apply. Existing arrangements Mr Gauke: I reassure the right hon. Gentleman that I that allow individuals to get more time to pay or to pay will turn to his fourth question in a moment, but before their tax bill in instalments will be available to help I do I hope it will be helpful if I first say a little more those who want to use them. about what HMRC is doing in this area, and then I will On the specific case, in May 2011, the Pensions deal with his question directly. Regulator decided to appoint Dalriada Trustees Ltd as In addition to the measures I have mentioned, HMRC the independent trustee of the Ark pension schemes. It has been working extremely closely with partner agencies— did so because it was satisfied that the interests of the Pensions Regulator, the Financial Services Authority scheme members were at risk due to the schemes being and the Serious Fraud Office—to detect, disrupt and used for pension liberation. Under trust law, Dalriada deter promoters, and to warn people of the dangers of has a duty to act in the best interests of the members. I entering into these schemes. Although HMRC and its am sure that it will seek to locate as much of the partners are taking action to raise awareness of potential scheme’s funds as possible, and to recover assets wherever threats, the Ark case highlights the need for people to be it is reasonable and proportionate to do so, bearing in on their guard against promises of tax loopholes, offers mind that the standard practice is for the costs of of unrealistic investment returns, or other dubious advice investigating and recovering assets to be met from member linked to their pension pot or cash lump sums. If it funds. sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Individuals On the right hon. Gentleman’s third question, there need to consider carefully what is on offer and whether are responsibilities on Dalriada as the trustee to ensure it is appropriate to their circumstances, and ensure they that its actions are proportionate and that the pension have carried out sufficient due diligence, taking professional funds of Ark members are not frittered away. None the advice as they deem necessary. 377 Ark Pension Schemes11 MARCH 2015 Ark Pension Schemes 378

The right hon. Gentleman asks whether the Ark schemes to be deregistered, or for new schemes to be pension schemes were registered with HMRC, and I refused registration where there are concerns. confirm that they were. As he will appreciate, it is HMRC’s role is to ensure that the tax system is being difficult to know at the point an application for registration complied with. It is not there to perform a role of is received whether any particular pension scheme will consumer protection, but to ensure that pensions are ultimately be misused, but that is not to say that the not liberated, and we have made a number of changes Government should be complacent. Changes have recently in recent months to strengthen its powers in that area. been made to the process for registering a new pension As the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate I cannot scheme with HMRC to make the system more robust discuss individual cases, but I assure him that HMRC and disrupt any fraudulent intentions. continues to ensure that the tax rules are applied fairly Legislation in last year’s Finance Act provided greater and consistently, that it will continue to pursue those powers to check that pension schemes are being set up behind pension liberation schemes, and that the British for the genuine provision of retirement benefits, and to taxpayer continues to get a fair deal. impose penalties where wrongdoing is identified. That Question put and agreed to. includes a “fit and proper person” test for those running the pension schemes applying for registration. Essentially, 5.53 pm these changes provide stronger powers for existing pension House adjourned. 379 11 MARCH 2015 Deferred Division 380

Deferred Division Gapes, Mike Latham, Pauline Gardiner, Barry Lavery, Ian George, Andrew Lazarowicz, Mark PUBLIC HEALTH Gibb, Mr Nick Leadsom, Andrea That the draft Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lee, Dr Phillip Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 23 February, Gilmore, Sheila Lefroy, Jeremy be approved. Glen, John Leslie, Charlotte The House divided: Ayes 367, Noes 113. Goodman, Helen Leslie, Chris Division No. 174] Goodwill, Mr Robert Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Gove, rh Michael Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Graham, Richard Lewis, Brandon AYES Greatrex, Tom Lewis, Mr Ivan Abrahams, Debbie Clark, rh Greg Green, Kate Lilley, rh Mr Peter Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Clark, Katy Greening, rh Justine Lloyd, Stephen Aldous, Peter Clarke, rh Mr Tom Greenwood, Lilian Long, Naomi Alexander, rh Danny Clwyd, rh Ann Griffith, Nia Lopresti, Jack Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Coaker, Vernon Gwynne, Andrew Lucas, Caroline Alexander, Heidi Coffey, Ann Gyimah, Mr Sam Lucas, Ian Ali, Rushanara Cooper, Rosie Hague, rh Mr William Luff, Sir Peter Allen, Mr Graham Cooper, rh Yvette Hain, rh Mr Peter Lumley, Karen Anderson, Mr David Corbyn, Jeremy Hames, Duncan Mactaggart, Fiona Andrew, Stuart Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hamilton, Mr David Malhotra, Seema Austin, Ian Creagh, Mary Hamilton, Fabian Mann, John Bailey, Mr Adrian Creasy, Stella Hammond, Stephen Maynard, Paul Bain, Mr William Crockart, Mike Hancock, Mr Mike McCabe, Steve Baker, rh Norman Crouch, Tracey Hanson, rh Mr David McCann, Mr Michael Baldry, rh Sir Tony Cruddas, Jon Harman, rh Ms Harriet McCarthy, Kerry Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Alex Harris, Mr Tom McCartney, Jason Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Mr Jim Harvey, Sir Nick McCrea, Dr William Barclay, Stephen Cunningham, Sir Tony Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McDonald, Andy Barron, rh Kevin Curran, Margaret Havard, Mr Dai McDonnell, John Barwell, Gavin Dakin, Nic Heald, Sir Oliver McFadden, rh Mr Pat Bayley, Sir Hugh Darling, rh Mr Alistair Healey, rh John McGovern, Alison Beckett, rh Margaret Davey, rh Mr Edward Heath, Mr David McGuire, rh Dame Anne Begg, Dame Anne David, Wayne Hendrick, Mark McKenzie, Mr Iain Beith, rh Sir Alan Davidson, Mr Ian Hillier, Meg McLoughlin, rh Mr Benn, rh Hilary Davies, Geraint Hilling, Julie Patrick Benyon, Richard Denham, rh Mr John Hinds, Damian Meacher, rh Mr Michael Berger, Luciana Dobson, rh Frank Hodge, rh Margaret Mearns, Ian Berry, Jake Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hopkins, Kelvin Menzies, Mark Blackman, Bob Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Hopkins, Kris Miliband, rh Edward Blears, rh Hazel Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Hosie, Stewart Miller, Andrew Blenkinsop, Tom Doran, Mr Frank Howarth, rh Mr George Miller, rh Maria Blomfield, Paul Dorries, Nadine Howell, John Milton, Anne Blunkett, rh Mr Doughty, Stephen Hunt, Tristram Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew David Dowd, Jim Hunter, Mark Moon, Mrs Madeleine Blunt, Crispin Doyle, Gemma Huppert, Dr Julian Moore, rh Michael Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dromey, Jack Hurd, Mr Nick Mordaunt, Penny Brake, rh Tom Dugher, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Morden, Jessica Brazier, Mr Julian Durkan, Mark Jackson, Glenda Morgan, rh Nicky Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Ms Angela Jackson, Mr Stewart Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Brine, Steve Edwards, Jonathan James, Margot Morris, James Brokenshire, James Efford, Clive James, Mrs Siân C. Mudie, Mr George Brooke, rh Annette Elliott, Julie Jamieson, Cathy Munn, Meg Brown, Mr Russell Ellis, Michael Jarvis, Dan Munt, Tessa Bruce, Fiona Ellison, Jane Jenrick, Robert Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Ellman, Mrs Louise Johnson, Diana Murphy, rh Paul Bryant, Chris Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Murray, Ian Buck, Ms Karen Evans, Chris Jones, Andrew Murrison, Dr Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Evennett, Mr David Jones, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa Burnham, rh Andy Farrelly, Paul Jones, Graham Nash, Pamela Burns, rh Mr Simon Farron, Tim Jones, Mr Kevan Newton, Sarah Burrowes, Mr David Featherstone, rh Lynne Jones, Mr Marcus Nokes, Caroline Burstow, rh Paul Field, rh Mr Frank Jones, Susan Elan Norman, Jesse Burt, rh Alistair Fitzpatrick, Jim Kane, Mike O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Cable, rh Vince Flello, Robert Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald O’Donnell, Fiona Cameron, rh Mr David Flint, rh Caroline Keeley, Barbara Offord, Dr Matthew Campbell, rh Mr Alan Flynn, Paul Kelly, Chris Onwurah, Chi Campbell, Mr Gregory Foster, rh Mr Don Kendall, Liz Opperman, Guy Campbell, Mr Ronnie Francis, Dr Hywel Khan, rh Sadiq Osborne, rh Mr George Champion, Sarah Freeman, George Lancaster, Mark Osborne, Sandra Chishti, Rehman Freer, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pearce, Teresa 381 Deferred Division11 MARCH 2015 Deferred Division 382

Penrose, John Straw, rh Mr Jack Bingham, Andrew Jenkin, Mr Bernard Perkins, Toby Streeter, Mr Gary Bone, Mr Peter Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Stride, Mel Bradley, Karen Kawczynski, Daniel Phillipson, Bridget Stringer, Graham Brady, Mr Graham Kirby, Simon Pickles, rh Mr Eric Stuart, Ms Gisela Bray, Angie Knight, rh Sir Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Kwarteng, Kwasi Pound, Stephen Swales, Ian Browne, Mr Jeremy Leigh, Sir Edward Powell, Lucy Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Burley, Mr Aidan Lewis, Dr Julian Pritchard, Mark Swinson, Jo Burns, Conor Liddell-Grainger, Mr Pugh, John Tami, Mark Carswell, Douglas Ian Raab, Mr Dominic Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Chope, Mr Christopher Macleod, Mary Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Thomas, Mr Gareth Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Main, Mrs Anne Reed, Mr Jamie Thornberry, Emily Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey McCartney, Karl Reed, Mr Steve Timms, rh Stephen Coffey, Dr Thérèse McIntosh, Miss Anne Reynolds, Emma Timpson, Mr Edward Collins, Damian McVey, rh Esther Ritchie, Ms Margaret Tomlinson, Justin Davies, David T. C. Meale, Sir Alan Robertson, Angus Tredinnick, David (Monmouth) Metcalfe, Stephen Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Trickett, Jon Davies, Glyn Mills, Nigel Robertson, John Turner, Karl de Bois, Nick Morris, David Rogerson, Dan Twigg, Derek Dinenage, Caroline Mosley, Stephen Rotheram, Steve Twigg, Stephen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Murray, Sheryll Roy, Mr Frank Umunna, Mr Chuka Doyle-Price, Jackie Neill, Robert Roy, Lindsay Vara, Mr Shailesh Drax, Richard Nuttall, Mr David Ruane, Chris Vaz, Valerie Duddridge, James Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Vickers, Martin Duncan, rh Sir Alan Paice, rh Sir James Russell, Sir Bob Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Elphicke, Charlie Paisley, Ian Rutley, David Walker, Mr Robin Evans, Jonathan Parish, Neil Sanders, Mr Adrian Walley, Joan Evans, Mr Nigel Pawsey, Mark Sarwar, Anas Ward, Mr David Fabricant, Michael Percy, Andrew Sawford, Andy Webb, rh Steve Field, Mark Pincher, Christopher Scott, Mr Lee Weir, Mr Mike Fox,rhDrLiam Prisk, Mr Mark Seabeck, Alison White, Chris Francois, rh Mr M Reckless, Mark Selous, Andrew Whiteford, Dr Eilidh ark Redwood, rh Mr John Sharma, Mr Virendra Whitehead, Dr Alan Fuller, Richard Rees-Mogg, Jacob Sheerman, Mr Barry Willetts, rh Mr David Garnier, Sir Edward Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Shelbrooke, Alec Williams, Hywel Garnier, Mark Rosindell, Andrew Shepherd, Sir Richard Williams, Mr Mark Gray, Mr James Skidmore, Chris Sheridan, Jim Williams, Roger Grayling, rh Chris Spencer, Mr Mark Simpson, David Williams, Stephen Green, rh Damian Stevenson, John Gummer, Ben Stewart, Bob Simpson, Mr Keith Williamson, Chris Skinner, Mr Dennis Halfon, Robert Stewart, Iain Williamson, Gavin Slaughter, Mr Andy Hands, rh Greg Sturdy, Julian Willott, rh Jenny Smith, Angela Harper, Mr Mark Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wilson, Phil Smith, Chloe Harrington, Richard Syms, Mr Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Smith, Henry Hart, Simon Truss, rh Elizabeth Smith, Julian Winnick, Mr David Hayes, rh Mr John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Smith, Nick Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Heaton-Harris, Chris Uppal, Paul Smith, Owen Wollaston, Dr Sarah Henderson, Gordon Walker, Mr Charles Smith, Sir Robert Woodcock, John Hendry, Charles Wallace, Mr Ben Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Wright, Mr Iain Hepburn, Mr Stephen Watkinson, Dame Angela Soubry, Anna Wright, rh Jeremy Herbert, rh Nick Wheeler, Heather Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wright, Simon Hollingbery, George Whittaker, Craig Stanley, rh Sir John Young, rh Sir George Hollobone, Mr Philip Whittingdale, Mr John Howarth, Sir Gerald Wiggin, Bill NOES Hughes, rh Simon Wilson, Sammy Adams, Nigel Baldwin, Harriett Amess, Sir David Bebb, Guto Question accordingly agreed to. Baker, Steve Bellingham, Mr Henry

65WH 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 66WH of Europe Chechnya, the human rights issues relating to the death Westminster Hall penalty and so on. All those have come up one time after another, so why now? Wednesday 11 March 2015 Mr Chope: I will go on to explain exactly why. It is not just the view of all the UK delegation’s [ANNETTE BROOKE in the Chair] members that the Russian Federation has seriously violated article 3; it is also the view of a substantial Russian Membership of the Council majority of the Parliamentary Assembly, as evidenced of Europe by the decision in January this year to impose sanctions against representatives of Russia, and of the European Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Conservatives group in the Assembly, which I have be now adjourned.—(John Penrose.) the privilege of chairing. It also must be the opinion of the Committee of Ministers, which has made various 9.30 am declarations calling on the Russian Federation to do this, Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): It is a that and the other, all of which have been ignored. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I think this is the first time I have had that privilege and Sir Alan Meale (Mansfield) (Lab): I confirm that that I fear that it might be the last, because of your impending is also the view of the majority of the Socialist group in retirement. the Council of Europe. This is a great opportunity to discuss the importance Mr Chope: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for of the Council of Europe and of the Parliamentary putting that on the record. I know that within the Assembly of the Council of Europe. I am delighted to Socialist group, strong, differing views have been expressed, see a number of my colleagues from the Parliamentary but the UK delegation in the Socialist group has been Assembly here today, along with the hon. Member for solidly supporting the notion that we must have application Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock), who was a long-serving of the rules of law to the Russian Federation’s membership member of the Assembly until he retired at the beginning of the Council of Europe. of this year after some 18 years’ service. What has the Russian Federation done to put itself in The statute of the Council of Europe was agreed in fundamental breach of its obligations? First, it has London on 5 May 1949. There were 10 founding members. illegally annexed the territory of another member country Today, 47 countries belong to it, and Russia is one of of the Council of Europe through the use of armed those, having joined in 1996. All have signed up to the aggression. To make that worse, its President this week aims of the Council as set out in chapter I, article 1(a), finally admitted that he ordered that annexation, and which provides: that there was no free will involved on the part of those “The aim of the Council of Europe is to achieve a greater unity living in Crimea. However, as recently as January this between its members for the purpose of safeguarding and realising year, Mr Putin’s poodles in the Russian state Duma the ideals… which are their common heritage and facilitating their economic and social progress.” were trying to equate Crimea’s referendum with that the one that took place in Scotland last year and to say that Article 3 of the statute provides: the annexation was equivalent to the Federal Republic “Every member of the Council of Europe must accept the of Germany’s annexation of East Germany in 1989. principles of the rule of law and of the enjoyment by all persons within its jurisdiction of human rights and fundamental freedoms, The hon. Member for Portsmouth South asked what and collaborate sincerely and effectively in the realisation of the is new, and I have here an article from a Russian aim of the Council as specified in Chapter I.” newspaper, dated 28 January 2015, with the headline If one recites the text of article 3 and sets that against “Russian lawmakers to consider declaration on 1989 the recent actions of the Russian Federation, the question ‘annexation of East Germany’”. It states: immediately arises of what sanctions there are against “Sergei Naryshkin, the speaker of Russia’s lower house of members that are in breach or violation of article 3. The parliament, has asked the parliamentary Committee on Foreign answer is contained in article 8: Affairs to look into the possibility of adopting a declaration which denounces the reunification of Germany in 1989”. “Any member of the Council of Europe which has seriously violated Article 3 may be suspended from its rights of representation He goes on to say that the Parliamentary Assembly’s and requested by the Committee of Ministers to withdraw under reference to the events in Crimea was unlawful and that Article 7. If such member does not comply with this request, the “‘97% of Crimean residents voted for reunification with their Committee may decide that it has ceased to be a member of the motherland’”. Council as from such date as the Committee may determine.” The article continues: My first question for my right hon. Friend the Minister, “Following the logic of those who call this historical event an whom I am delighted to see is responding to the debate, annexation, the Federal Republic of Germany annexed East is, has the Russian Federation seriously violated article 3 Germany, Naryshkin stated.” of the statute? My view is that it certainly has, which I We now know, from Putin’s words a year later, that he think is a view shared by all 18 members of the UK ordered that, so all the subsequent bluff and bluster delegation and the 18 substitute members. were lies, as we knew they were at the time, and as most Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (Ind): What of us on the Parliamentary Assembly realised. the hon. Gentleman is describing could have been the The second thing that I hold against the Russian case on at least five previous occasions, but it would Federation is that it has deployed Russian troops across appear that this is the straw that broke the camel’s back, the border in eastern Ukraine who have used and continued certainly as far as the UK delegation is concerned. We to use heavy weapons against the Ukrainian people. I could have had this over South Ossetia, Abkhazia, ask the hon. Gentleman, is that not enough? 67WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 68WH of Europe of Europe [Mr Chope] Nigeria was suspended from the Commonwealth in 1995 for breaching the Commonwealth principles. It Thirdly, Russia has brazenly defied the rule of law by was reinstated in 1999, when it had a democratically harbouring Andrei Lugovoy, one of its own MPs, who elected President. Fiji was suspended in September was involved in the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko 2009 for being in breach of the principles and is still in London in 2006. As has become clear at the public suspended. Indeed, I think it has now left the organisation. inquiry currently taking place, Lugovoy achieved a Zimbabwe was suspended in March 2002. That resulted score of minus 2 when asked during a polygraph test in in its leaving the Commonwealth in December 2003. Moscow in April 2012 whether he had handled polonium, There are well established precedents for exercising the yet at the time Russia claimed that the test had emphatically power of suspension from an international organisation established his innocence. To add insult to injury, on when a member of that organisation is manifestly in Monday this week, President Putin awarded a state breach of the principles. honour to Mr Lugovoy for what was described as “services to the fatherland”. That is putting the proverbial Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) two fingers up to all the other members of the Council (Con): I have a word of caution for my hon. Friend, of Europe. What are those members doing in response? who is making a very powerful and correct point. I am a The fourth charge that I levy against the Russian member of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, Federation is that it has refused to honour its obligations and one problem that we have had is that we are losing under international law to release from custody Nadiya countries from the CPA because of the problems that Savchenko, who was an elected Member of the Ukrainian we are facing. Australia is an obvious one. The problem Parliament and a member of the Parliamentary Assembly in this case is that we may split the Council of Europe if of the Council of Europe. She was illegally abducted we are not careful. The idea that my hon. Friend is from Ukraine last July. putting forward is absolutely right—we have to have Then there is the Magnitsky case. That is a case of the sanctions—but we do not want a polarised Council of Russians exercising impunity in relation to the killers of Europe, in which countries feel that they are so bullied Sergei Magnitsky. A recently published book by Bill by Russia that they cannot continue to be within the Browder, “Red Notice: How I Became Putin’s No. 1 Council of Europe. Does he see that that may be a Enemy”, is, according to the inside cover, problem, rather like what the Commonwealth has been facing over the last 20 years with the countries that we “a searing exposé of the wholesale whitewash by Russian authorities have had to suspend? of Magnitsky’s imprisonment and murder, slicing deep into the shadowy heart of the Kremlin to uncover its sordid truths… With fraud, bribery, corruption and torture exposed at every turn, Red Mr Chope: There may be parallels. I defer to my hon. Notice is a shocking but true political roller-coaster that plays out Friend’s superior knowledge of what happens in the in the highest echelons of Western power.” Commonwealth. However, if we and the other founding On the back of the book, which, not surprisingly, has members of the Council of Europe do not stand up for been banned in Russia, there is a quote from Bill our belief in the principles of the Council of Europe, we Browder: make things much more difficult for other countries, “I have to assume that there is a very real chance that Putin or particularly those that were formerly in eastern Europe members of his regime will have me killed some day… If I’m and part of the Soviet bloc. It is much more difficult for killed, you will know who did it.” them to try to comply with the principles of the Council That is, sadly, rather reminiscent of what Boris Nemtsov’s of Europe if they can see that the bully boy next-door mother said before his assassination in Russia last month. to them is being treated with impunity, which is exactly what is happening with Russia at the moment. We could In addition to all that, there have been multiple send a very strong message if we took effective action breaches of the accession document that Russia signed and used sanctions against Russia. We would be sending when it joined the Council of Europe. As Russia is still a message to those other countries that we were on their in deliberate breach of its obligations under article 3, side and would help them to stand up against their why is nothing being done by the United Kingdom bully-boy neighbour. Government to trigger action against Russia under article 8? Indeed, one might ask what the purpose is of belonging to an organisation that manifestly shows so Mr Mike Hancock: I am curious to know why the little respect for the values espoused in its founding Conservative group stayed in the same group as the statute. Russians for so long if it felt so strongly about Russian abuses that have gone on for the past 18 years or so. There are precedents for suspension or expulsion from international organisations, and I want to touch Mr Chope: The answer to that is that the abuses that I on what happens in the Commonwealth. On Monday, have been describing have not been going on for the last Her Majesty the Queen, as head of the Commonwealth, 18 years or so. What has happened is that things have attended the annual service at Westminster abbey, and got very much worse within the last year. That is why her message for Commonwealth day was that the the European Democrat group, as it then was, decided organisation’s values are to take sanctions against the Russians, as members of “more important and worthy of protection than perhaps at any that group, for being in manifest breach of the Council other time in the Commonwealth’s existence.” of Europe. What was the straw that broke the camel’s The same is true of the values of the Council of Europe. back in that respect? It was the motion, passed in the The principles of the Commonwealth were set out in Russian Duma by elected members of the Parliamentary the Singapore declaration of 1971 and restated in the Assembly from Russia, supporting the illegal annexation Harare declaration of 1991. In essence, they talk about of Crimea. It was not a situation, as sometimes happens peace, democracy, liberty and the rule of law. in the Parliamentary Assembly—this has happened with 69WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 70WH of Europe of Europe the hon. Gentleman and to an extent with myself—in Mr Chope: Of course it would be, but the point that I which we as elected members say that we are not necessarily am making, and the reason why I have secured the four-square supporting our Government but are standing debate, is that everything suggests that the reverse is up for the values of the Council of Europe against our true. In relation to the Court judgments, on 13 December Government. What happened in that case was that the 2013 President Putin praised the Russian Constitutional members of the Russian Federation delegation and Court for upholding the Russian constitution by effectively members in the European Democrat group were actively stating that the Constitutional Court’s authority was undermining the principles of the Council of Europe superior to that of the European Court of Human and actively engaged in supporting the illegal annexation Rights. As a result of that, did the Commissioner for of Crimea and were thereby breaching the principle Human Rights tell Russia that it should withdraw from that the Council of Europe stands for the territorial the Council of Europe, as he told my hon. Friend the integrity of all its member countries. That is the short Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton that the history. UK should do? No, he did not. Has the commissioner said anything similar about the various actions that Mr Hancock: But not Georgia. Russia has taken in defiance of its obligations under the statute? No, he has not, and that is where the double Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman takes us back to standards come in. what happened in relation to Georgia. He may recall We are being told that, because of our failure to that at that time there was a Labour Government in this implement an interpretation of the European convention country and one of the first international statesmen on human rights that is in breach of the original terms who spoke out in support of Georgia was none other of the convention—originally, it was clear that they did than our present Prime Minister, so I do not think that not apply to prisoner voting, but the interpretation has we can be criticised for being slopy-shouldered in relation been extended—the United Kingdom should expel itself to what happened in Georgia. That was part of a from the Council of Europe. Meanwhile, the commissioner continuing scenario. When it comes down to it, we have has not said anything to the Russians about their to face the fact that in Mr Putin we are dealing with a membership. dictator and a tyrant. That is the scenario. In the same way, we have been dealing with a dictator and a tyrant in Zimbabwe. Eventually, patience ran out and Zimbabwe Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I am following the was expelled from the Commonwealth. It was not expelled trend of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but I am immediately, because everyone was using the same slightly unclear about whether he is against Russia, arguments as are now being used in relation to Russia: against the Council of Europe, or against our engagement “Isn’t jaw-jaw better than any alternative?” However, with either. there comes a time when, if someone continues to be in complete defiance of the principles, we need to take, in Mr Chope: I am very much in favour of engagement, my view, the only sanction that is available under the but only with those who want to engage on the same rules. page, if I may put it in such a way. My concern is that We are already in danger of being accused of double the Russians are not showing any willingness to do so. If standards. When my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor we believe that there has been a fundamental breach of Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb) chaired the Joint the statute, as I have set out, and if that is allowed to Committee on the draft Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) happen with impunity, it brings into question the whole Bill, the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human purpose of this international organisation. What is the Rights, Nils Muiznieks, wrote to him on 10 October 2013: point of belonging to it? That is the question to which I “Thus, my message is clear: the Court’s judgments”— hope we will get an answer from the Minister. Mr Muiznieks was referring to the European Court of Human Rights— Mr Spellar: We are a member of the United Nations, “have to be executed and the automatic and indiscriminate ban in which there is a huge range of opinions, democracy on voting rights for prisoners should be repealed. If the Court and practices. How does the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s system is to continue to provide protection, there is no alternative argument follow? to this for member states, other than leaving the system itself.” He goes on to say: Mr Chope: The Council of Europe is different from “I think that any member state should withdraw from the the United Nations, and the statute spells out that it is Council of Europe rather than defy the Court by not executing separate from the United Nations. The Council of Europe judgments.” covers only Europe—European values and principles. I would be concerned if the right hon. Gentleman wanted Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): to be an apologist for the Russian Federation, although Does my hon. Friend agree that, until recently, the I do not believe that he does. Until now, cross-party committee on legal affairs and human rights of the concern has been expressed in the House about the Council of Europe had for some time seen Russia behaviour of the Russian Federation. If we are prepared engaging more, explaining its views about judgments to take economic sanctions against the Russian Federation, and following up on some of them? That seemed quite why should we not take the sanctions that are available encouraging, so it is a great pity that we have got into to us under the Council of Europe statute? The answer the current situation. Would it not be best for the may be because certain other members of the Council Russians to follow the ceasefire agreement and find an of Europe are too frightened to want to join in, but my honourable peace in Ukraine, so that the progress that answer to them is that the United Kingdom has traditionally has been made could resume? taken a lead in such things. I hope that my right hon. 71WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 72WH of Europe of Europe [Mr Chope] That is what the Council of Europe is all about. I view it not as an executive body like the European Union; I Friend the Minister, in his response to the debate, will view it as an inter-parliamentary assembly. I am a say that we are taking a lead and explain what we member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council will do. of Europe, and one of the Council of Europe’s values is that we recognise that our powers are extremely limited—in Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I fact, they are virtually non-existent, with the exception congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. of voting for judges on the European Court of Human He talks about engaging with people. Does he agree Rights—but it is an opportunity to meet members of that we should encourage engagement with the sections Parliaments from across Europe to exchange views. of Russian society that have taken a stand against That is what the Council of Europe is: it is an inter- Putin, and that we should ensure that they have a voice parliamentary assembly. not only in the Council of Europe but across the globe? Article 1 of the statute of the Council of Europe Mr Chope: I agree, but how best can we do that? That states that its purpose is is a question of judgment. I have heard it said, for “to achieve a greater unity between its members for the purpose example, that we must keep Russia in the Council of of safeguarding and realising the ideals and principles which are Europe because if we do not, it will reinstate the death their common heritage and facilitating their economic and social penalty. In fact, however, we can see from recent events progress.” that the Russian Government exercise an extrajudicial As long as Russia is, albeit suspended, a member of the death penalty by murdering enemies of the state in the Council of Europe, we can hope to press it to mend its United Kingdom and elsewhere. Do we tolerate such ways. Expelling Russia would be a considerable step. behaviour because we are fearful that Russia might My hon. Friend mentioned suspended members of the reintroduce a judicial death penalty instead of the Commonwealth, but it has been a rare step to expel extrajudicial death penalty that is currently handed out countries from the Commonwealth—South Africa might by the President? have been expelled, and it might even have expelled The extent to which we should impose sanctions is an itself in the early years of apartheid—and expelling a eternal dilemma. Just as public opinion in this country member of the Council of Europe would be a dangerous is influenced by international events, if we took a firmer precedent, particularly in our vulnerable situation, as line against Russia on its human rights record and its has already been mentioned. breaches of the rules of the Council of Europe, we As I understand it, in our Conservative party manifesto, would support those in Russia who are trying to fight we will proclaim the supremacy of Parliament. We will against the system. I know from having had the privilege proclaim that, if our Parliament votes for a particular of talking to Bill Browder that he also believes that it is position, such as on prisoner voting rights, the Court better to try to sanction the regime in Russia than to cannot gainsay it. If there is a Conservative Government continue to indulge it. and if we pass such an Act of Parliament, there will undoubtedly be a move from some of our friends in 9.58 am Europe to expel us, but I am pretty sure that we will not Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): We owe a be expelled. It is pretty foolish for us to set a precedent debt to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch by now expelling Russia. (Mr Chope) for securing the debate, because it encourages What Russia is doing by invading a sovereign country, a useful exchange of views. He is the most distinguished its neighbour, is infinitely more egregious, more damaging leader of the European Conservatives Group on the to human rights and more lamentable in every respect Council of Europe. He has devoted himself body and than our will and desire to proclaim the supremacy of soul to working on the Council in an often unsung role, Parliament—I recognise that—but we have a problem, and we are grateful to him. We all understand the depth have we not? As some people will articulate, we have of his feeling, and we can understand why he advances signed various conventions and, in a very real sense, the the argument that we should now expel Russia from the European Court of Human Rights is a supreme court, Council of Europe. I am sorry to say that I disagree an ultimate authority of laws. Although we will undoubtedly with that argument. So far, Russia has behaved in an want to stay in the Council of Europe—my right hon. utterly lamentable fashion, and the Council of Europe Friend the Minister can confirm that—despite proclaiming has decided effectively to suspend it. In theory, Russia the supremacy of Parliament, we will be in some difficulty. can turn up, but in practice it does not. It does not vote It is not entirely useful for us to set a precedent. or speak. Taking the next dramatic step of expelling Russia Mr Chope: Article 8 outlines a two-stage process. The would be a mistake because, although my hon. Friend first stage states: will not agree, as long as Russia is involved in the “Any member of the Council of Europe which has seriously Council of Europe, whether on the death penalty, human violated Article 3 may be suspended from its rights of representation”. rights or its position with regard to other countries, That is what I am suggesting as a first stage. Article 8 there is some sort of link and encouragement for it to goes on to say what can happen afterwards. My hon. make progress along the road of human rights. Friend says that expulsion would be a very strong Why was the Council of Europe set up? It is a very sanction, but my suggestion is that we should start off different organisation from the European Union. As with suspension, using the powers under article 8. my hon. Friend said, we are one of the creators of the Council of Europe. He quoted the famous remark of Sir Edward Leigh: I apologise if I misunderstood my Winston Churchill in 1954: hon. Friend. I argue with the position that we effectively “To jaw-jaw is…better than to war-war.” have at the moment. Russia might not be formally 73WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 74WH of Europe of Europe suspended, but it is effectively suspended, which is a We have to understand the attitude of many people in sort of halfway house. We are rapping its knuckles. If he Crimea, eastern Ukraine and Russia. Thirty-four of the is now saying that under no circumstances does he wish Council of Europe’s 47 member states have recognised to expel Russia and that he does not view this as a the forcible division of Serbia after Kosovo proclaimed process towards expelling Russia, I am sorry that I its independence. That is often cited, and it was directly misunderstood his arguments. I am in favour of giving a cited by the Crimean Parliament when it voted to leave message to Russia, but I am not in favour of expelling Ukraine and join the Russian Federation. It blames us Russia. If he wants to make it clear that he is also not in for double standards on Serbia, and it asks us, “Where favour of expelling Russia, I will happily give way. were you, Britain, and what debates were there in the House of Commons, when Khrushchev forcibly, by Mr Chope: There are two separate issues: the Russian diktat, removed Crimea from Russia and gave it to delegation’s membership of the Parliamentary Assembly Ukraine in the 1950s?” and Russia’s membership of the Council of Europe as a country. I am saying that article 8 should be applied on I do not want to comment on whether this is right or that latter point. I am not talking about the situation wrong, but there is a substantial body of opinion—a within the Parliamentary Assembly, which has already majority opinion—in Crimea and Russia that thinks been well rehearsed. I am talking about the Government’s that the people of Crimea and eastern Ukraine, who are responsibility to do something under article 8. ethnic Russians and Russian speakers, have a right to self-determination. We can have as many debates as we Sir Edward Leigh: We now understand each other like, we can pose as many sanctions as we want and we perfectly. I tell my right hon. Friend the Minister that I can criticise Mr Putin as often as we like, but we are up do not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for against the absolute, convinced opinion of an overwhelming Christchurch. We have taken the right, measured steps majority of Russian people, who think that the people within the Parliamentary Assembly. The process of of eastern Ukraine have a right to self-determination. suspension may result in expulsion, and there should be no route towards suspending or expelling Russia from the Council of Europe. I think we have done the right Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend extend the same thing. argument to the Russian minorities in the Baltic states— Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia? Sir Oliver Heald: Does my hon. Friend agree that one thing to bear in mind is that the European Court of Human Rights is extensively used by citizens of Russia Sir Edward Leigh: I am simply seeking to understand and human rights defenders who want justice? They the Russian point of view. There is a difficulty with find justice in the Court when they do not necessarily Latvia, because there are 300,000 ethnic Russian speakers find it in Russia itself. Equally, Russia benefits from in that country who are effectively denied their human bodies such as the Group of States against Corruption, rights. I am not going to get involved in a debate about which is trying to improve standards across Europe. whether that is bad or good, but my hon. Friend is right Pulling the rug from under Russia’s membership of the to say that it is often talked about in Russia. It is a real Council of Europe as a whole, or putting its membership problem. However, there is a difference, because Latvia, at risk, would have damaging effects. Estonia and Lithuania are members of NATO. We decided to draw them into NATO, so we are bound by Sir Edward Leigh: I agree entirely. I was thinking of article 5 to defend them. intervening on my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch when he introduced this debate. Has he I must end in a moment, because I do not want to been in touch with non-governmental organisations weary the House by speaking for too long. I believe—I across Russia? Has he been in touch with people who have said this before and I will say it again—that Great are appealing to the Court, as my hon. and learned Britain has an historic role. There is no history between Friend said? My understanding—the Minister can confirm us and Russia, so we are natural arbiters. We were allies this or otherwise—is that the Council of Europe is in the two greatest conflicts of the 20th century, and in valued by some people in Russia. They still have the many ways we are natural allies. There is a way out of right to go to the Court, and starting a process to expel this impasse. Russia from the Council of Europe and denying those I spent an hour with the Russian ambassador recently, people the right to appeal to the Court would be dangerous. and I asked his opinion. Hon. Members may say that he Time is running by, and we do not want to get bogged is just another diplomat sent abroad to lie for his down on the invasion of Ukraine. I am not pro-Ukrainian country. I did not believe everything that he told me, but or pro-Russian. All I seek is to understand the mentality he said that Russia’s position—take it or leave it, but it of the Russian people and the Russian Government, is not completely unreasonable, and it is the basis for and that is part of the importance of sitting on a body some sort of negotiated peace—is that Ukraine should such as the Council of Europe. Seeking to understand not join NATO. Apparently, we have no desire for Ukraine our opponent’s position does not necessarily mean that to join NATO. The Russians claim that they are reasonably we agree with that position. It belittles and over-simplifies relaxed about Ukraine’s moving further towards the the debate to say that, because the current President of European Union, but they would like that to be balanced Russia, Mr Putin, is a tyrant—he may well be a tyrant with corresponding trade agreements with Russia, which and an extremely unpleasant person—this is somehow is a perfectly reasonable position. They recognise that all his doing and that, if we in Britain were to apply eastern Ukraine should remain part of the sovereign certain pressures on him such as starting the process of state of Ukraine, which should have self-determination. expelling his country from the Council of Europe, we Those three points of view are not completely unreasonable; would somehow influence him. they are the basis for peace. 75WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 76WH of Europe of Europe [Sir Edward Leigh] sure I have seen some of the cameramen giving quotes about the issue to other television stations because there I believe strongly that we should keep Russia in the were no politicians around to do it. Council of Europe and that we should go on talking The Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe to it. We should seek a solution based on peace; otherwise, had the pleasure of having Boris Nemtsov at its meetings we will be in a situation of war without end. The on several occasions. I had the pleasure of meeting him, Russian people, who suffered terribly during the having dinner with him and talking to him. The question 20th century, will not give up on this issue. It is not of I asked him at our group meeting was, “Do you think massive strategic concern to the British people, although we should expel Russia from the Council of Europe?” we have an interest and a role to play as an arbiter. I His words were, “Most definitely not.” He then spoke believe that we should go on playing the role of arbiter for about half an hour about why he thought that was and be a proponent of peace in the Council of Europe. not the case. During his half-hour response, he made a number of points that a lot of us thought gave conclusive Annette Brooke (in the Chair): I propose to call the evidence that Russia should not be in the Council of winding-up speeches at 10.40 am at the very latest. Two Europe. Nevertheless, he said no. hon. Members wish to speak, so that should be satisfactory. Over the years, the biggest problem has been the way we have looked at Russia since it joined in 1996. I joined 10.14 am the Council of Europe in 1997. Since then, the Council Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (Ind): It is a of Europe has not taken action against Russia on at pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. least five occasions. One was when we had the long, I congratulate the hon. Member for Christchurch drawn-out debates over Chechnya, which went on for (Mr Chope) on bringing this challenge, which we have the best part of four years. I went to Chechnya twice. to face up to, to the House today. We should all be One of our former members, Lord Judd, was one of mindful of his words, but, like the hon. Member for the leading players on that issue. He came close to Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), I think there is recommending that Russia be suspended and then expelled, another side to the issue. but he drew back from that. He would say that he drew back because he was put under pressure. We ought to look at what the Council of Europe is about. We know that its main three pillars—its raison There was the situation in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. d’être—are human rights, the rule of law and democratic Once again, are we really saying that it was okay for processes. However, all of us who have been in the Georgia’s land to be occupied and for two free states to Council of Europe for any length of time know that it emerge in a Council of Europe country? What action also has two negative pillars, which it embraces with did we take on that issue? We are still having a debate. great enthusiasm: double standards and the lowest common We have rapporteurs looking at the Russia-Georgia denominator when it comes to getting something through issue, but we have not made a decision, although it the Council of Europe. Often, it is not the best argument occurred in 2008. Six years on, the Council of Europe that wins, but the one that the political bosses of the has done nothing. Why? Because, once again, it aims for various parties decide they can carry in the Chamber. the lowest common denominator to keep everyone in the tent. A good example of the Council of Europe’s double standards is the situation in Ukraine. When was the last Human rights in Russia was another issue on which time we had a debate in the Council of Europe about the Russians flatly refused, until 2012, to agree to the the Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus? I cannot very principles that they had signed up for. The abolition remember one in my 18 years there. When did we have a of the death penalty— debate in the Council of Europe about the separation of Kosovo from Serbia, which is an idea I support? When Sir Oliver Heald: I am following what the hon. Gentleman was the last time we criticised Armenia for occupying a is saying very carefully. Does he not agree that in third of the land mass of Azerbaijan? We have not had diplomacy it is important to have some messages that those debates. Why not? Because we would have to take can be sent and some sanctions that can be imposed, in positive action against those countries. Do we really an escalating fashion, to make one’s point? Taking away want to say that to Turkey, Azerbaijan and Armenia? I voting rights in the Council of Europe, which annoys think not. We know that will not happen. the Russians a good deal, is a measure that one can use, The Library produced a very interesting document, and it is wrong to say that it is all or nothing. Those which states: escalating sanctions are useful. “A group of Conservative MPs led by” the then leader Mr Hancock: But there comes a time when the credibility “led a charge to suspend Russia fully from the assembly. His of the Council of Europe is at stake. That is the issue, is amendment was defeated”. it not? Sooner or later, we come to a line in the sand and It was defeated because those people were taking a step say, “Is it really worth belonging to this organisation?” too far, as far as the Assembly was concerned. I have I do not want Russia to leave the Council of Europe, long held the view that we have to have a debate on but I want to call the bluff of those who agitate time whether we want Russia in or out. There cannot be any and again to nitpick—not “nitpick”, as that is the half measures. Suspending the voting rights of the wrong expression—and to take voting rights away. Who delegation is totally irrelevant. It causes a bit of panic in gets cheesed off about having their voting rights taken the Hemicycle for the hour or so after the vote is taken, away? Probably the wives of the Duma Members, who when the Russian press are there and the media are can no longer go to Paris and Strasbourg for sittings. I trying to get a quote from everyone and anyone. I am do not believe the politicians are particularly bothered 77WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 78WH of Europe of Europe that they do not have their voting rights. They know because they know that the track record of the Council that in January next year there will be a vote and they of Europe on taking forceful action is pretty abysmal will have their voting rights back. I am sure of that. and they have a lot of evidence to support that line. How can that be the case? The hon. Members who The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward intervened on the hon. Member for Christchurch—the Leigh) raised the issue of Latvia. Interestingly, the hon. and learned Member for North East Hertfordshire 300,000 ethnic Russians in Latvia are classed as non-citizens. (Sir Oliver Heald) and the hon. Member for Bridgwater If the Council of Europe believes in anything to do with and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger)—raised a human rights, how can it allow that situation to persist? point about Russia, saying, “Oh, well, if they agree to It is ridiculous. a certain line in the sand over Ukraine, that is okay.” Is it okay? Russia will never give up Crimea now, so where Sir Edward Leigh: It is pretty intolerable that a country does the Council of Europe stand on the issue of that is a member of the EU and the Council of Europe Crimea? Forget eastern Ukraine; where does the Council is effectively denying citizenship to people, and the right of Europe stand on the issue of Crimea? I have friends for them to sit in Parliament and all the rest of it, unless who live in Crimea. They are Russian by ethnicity, have they learn Latvian. Imagine if the boot was on the other absolute faith that they are now back where they belong foot and there were large numbers of people here who and are committed to staying there, and will fight very could not speak English, or they were Urdu speakers or hardtodoso. whatever, and we said, “You can’t stand for Parliament and all that sort of stuff because you have to vote in Mr Chope: I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern that English.” There is a real problem here. I am not defending people can be in a parliamentary assembly and have the Russian position, but we have to recognise that that their rights suspended while they still remain members is what the Russians think. of the Council of Europe itself, because if someone’s country is still in the Council of Europe there is an Mr Hancock: Some people might suggest that we are argument for saying that their parliamentarians should getting pretty close to that in the UK regarding the be in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of ability of people to speak English, but how can people Europe. That is why I am arguing that Russia should be be classed as non-citizens in an EU state—or, more suspended from the Council of Europe itself. importantly from our point of view, in a member state of the Council of Europe—and nothing is done or said Mr Hancock: The hon. Gentleman makes a good about it, except by those of us who believe passionately point, and he presented his case extraordinarily well. I that everyone living in a country should be classed as a have no doubt about the merits of that case, but there is citizen of that country? this other argument, which other Members have alluded to, that it is better to have people inside the organisation. What do we do? We have a debate here. I am not sure whether the suspension of voting rights for the Russians Would the human rights commissioner for the Council will do much at all. Expelling Russia from the Council of Europe have the same facilities offered to them in of Europe would undoubtedly harm the organisation; it Russia if Russia was out of the Assembly? I think not. would diminish the Council of Europe’s credibility for Would people in Russia, who make up nearly two thirds being able to speak on behalf of the 700 million people of all the applicants to the European Court of Human who inhabit the 46 member states in the Council of Rights, have any access to redress if Russia was out of Europe, so it would be a mistake to do it. the Assembly? I think not. If the £24 million that the Russians put in, as a grand payer along with the UK, We must continue to work with Russia. It is quite was removed from the Council of Europe, what would interesting to see who the rapporteurs on Russia have that do for the Court in Strasbourg? been over the years. In most instances, they have been leaders of the political groups, or senior members of those groups who have taken on that responsibility. Sir Alan Meale: The hon. Gentleman said that the None of them has ever recommended anything like the members of the Russian delegation to the Assembly do suspension or removal of Russia from the Council of not really care whether they have voting rights, so why Europe. Why? Because they believed that their efforts do they continually campaign to get the votes back and brought some reward for the citizens in Russia. why do they threaten in discussions in the Duma that, if they do not get their votes back, they will seek to leave The best message we can send out today is that we do the Council of Europe? Surely, voting rights are important not like what the Russians are doing and that we will and, as the hon. and learned Member for North East do everything we can to achieve a peaceful settlement to Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) said, the strength of the issues of eastern Ukraine, but that situation will not the push towards getting the negotiation to the Council be solved and the people involved will not be saved from of Ministers, or to the UN or wherever, is the important further harm by expelling Russia from the Council of factor here. Europe. We should take a positive step today to say that we hope to see in January a different attitude from the Mr Hancock: The simple answer to that is that the Russian side and from the Council of Europe side. Council of Europe needs Russia more than Russia More importantly, however, for those Members who needs the Council of Europe. That is the real issue for are lucky enough to be on the delegation to the Council the Russian Duma Members and I have read with of Europe after the general election, I suggest that they interest some of the comments they have made in the need to get rid of the two things that undermine the Russian press since the issue in January; they make Council of Europe time and again: double standards interesting reading. Those Duma Members genuinely and the continual striving to find the lowest common believe that the threat to suspend Russia is a bluff, denominator, instead of finding the right answer. 79WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 80WH of Europe of Europe 10.27 am those in the Duma, I suspect—about whether Russia would wish to continue its membership of the Council. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): Many in Russia believe it has a negative influence on Thank you, Mrs Brooke, for calling me to speak. their nation and would like Russian sovereignty restored It is a great pleasure to play a part in this thoughtful on matters such as the death penalty. If Russia withdrew debate. It has been particularly interesting to be part of from the Council, that would likely sound the death a debate in which a diversity of views has been expressed. knell for some of the naive idealism that has guided Often, our relationship with Russia is seen in a monochrome western policy since the collapse of the Soviet Union. way. I had a lot of sympathy with what my hon. Friend the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Member for Gainsborough said in quite a brave Christchurch (Mr Chope) on bringing this matter to the contribution that was not something one necessarily House. As he pointed out, the Council of Europe was hears on the Floor of the House. He is right: the established in the embers of the second world war simplistic way in which Putin is portrayed as a dictator and inspired by the need at that juncture to rebuild and a tyrant in much of our press fails to understand our continent. As my hon. Friend the Member for some deep-seated issues in Russia. Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) pointed out, it was Sir Winston Churchill himself who recognised that only I have long cautioned against assuming that Russia is shared standards and values on the law and human on a steady path to becoming a functioning, multi-party rights, alongside democratic development, would help democracy. We have always failed to understand that to stitch Europe back together. However, I do not think many Russians, to this day, see the Gorbachev and there was any great naivety at that stage about those Yeltsin era as a time of chaos, uncertainty and utter ideals. There was a recognition that the ideals would be humiliation. Putin has been able to maintain some perhaps honoured in part in their breach, but it was still domestic popularity by retelling a more traditional important to be able to talk and to have some sort of Russian story, filling the vast ideological vacuum left by relationship. the disintegration of the communist ideal with the notion of a Russian civilisation based upon patriotism, The hon. Member for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) selflessness and deference to an all-powerful state. In made it clear that there are a number of glaring situations doing so, he continues to tap into a pool of resentment in our continent at the moment that do not pass muster, that goes beyond Russian borders, to encapsulate many and that if we take this draconian step against Russia it of those who dislike the global dominance of the USA would be very difficult to see that we would not do so over the past two decades. Specifically in relation to against a number of other nations, given some long-standing Georgia, there is no doubt that the Georgian leadership issues. One that he did not mention that comes to mind in that period, up to 2007-08, was little more than a is, as the Spanish would see it, the occupation of Gibraltar, CIA front. That was going on in Georgia and it is which might also become an issue. However, perhaps it perhaps one reason why we have rapidly moved on from is better that we move on from that to something closer discussing that issue. at hand. We are now faced with the Crimean crisis—let us be The Council of Europe as currently constituted consists brutally honest: there is no going back from Crimea’s of 47 member nations, incorporating nearly all the being returned as part of Russia—and the ongoing European countries as well as the outliers in the Caucasus. hostilities in eastern Ukraine. This continues to baffle It has, of course, become best known in this country for many here in the west who fail to grasp why Vladimir the European Court of Human Rights, which sits within Putin would wish to re-engineer an old-fashioned, its auspices. As hon. Members mentioned, it was almost imperialistic land-grab that risks western ire and Russian 20 years ago, in 1996, that the Russian Federation was company balance sheets. The Russian President may formally admitted as a Council of Europe member. well be a nasty piece of work—I am not in any way Even then, its relatively dubious human rights record defending what he is doing—but he is a master at was overlooked, on the basis that it was making progress fashioning strength from weakness. From a position of on implementing the rule of law alongside free and fair fragile financial and geopolitical clout, Putin has boosted elections. That decision symbolised the west’s optimism, his profile with a domestic and global audience as a at that juncture, that Russia was on its way to a champion for the interests of Russia and, more worryingly, normalisation after the collapse of the Soviet Union the Russian diaspora, which we have touched on in only five years before. People were saying, “Give it time relation to Latvia and Estonia. I agree with what my and patience. If Russia is brought into the international hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough said: there fold, it will eventually begin to act like an open, democratic is a fundamental difference between the way that we will state.” Or so we thought. look at Latvia and Estonia in years to come—they are Since then, the relationship between the Council of members of NATO, and therefore protected under article Europe and Russia has at times been testy, particularly 5, and members of the EU—and how we view Ukraine. with regard to questions about legal supremacy. In The “one step forward, one step back” approach that 2014, the ECHR made more judgments against Russia has characterised western diplomacy in Ukraine in the than against any other country. The ECHR has been past 18 months will endanger the countries beyond and used by many enemies of the Kremlin, most notably the give Putin a sense that we will not be serious about Yukos founder, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, to bring cases where a line is drawn to defend countries that are in against the Russian state. NATO. After President Putin’s intervention in Ukraine, the I should not be too surprised if Putin were now to Council of Europe deprived Moscow’s delegation of its engineer a similar victory by pushing for Russian withdrawal right to vote, a move that has sparked wider discussion from the Council of Europe, making the case that among Russia’s ruling class—not just the wives of continued membership is untenable now that the institution 81WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 82WH of Europe of Europe has become a vehicle through which western policy will continue for the foreseeable future, although one or alone is exercised. Mr Putin has already suggested that two of my hon. Friends do not take a similar view. I fear neighbouring countries’ membership of the EU and that, by demonstrating that the post-cold war consensus NATO is equivalent to those nations existing in a on democracy, human rights and rule of law might be “semi-occupied state”. He may also try to present an shattered, Putin could challenge at a stroke other exit from the Council as a proud declaration of the international institutions that have so painstakingly supremacy of Russian sovereignty, as well as a defence been built to serve our best interests and foster freedom of his nation’s distinct world view and political culture in our continent over the past 70 years. when it is under grave threat. In doing so, Putin will hope to sow the seeds of discord among remaining 10.39 am Council members, particularly when it comes to the ECHR, already a subject of hot debate on these shores. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I think this is also Why not try to fracture the consensus on human rights the first and last time I have served under your by suggesting that the ECHR has diminished national chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. We should record that it is sovereignty, blunting members’ ability to tackle dangerous 30 years to the day since Mikhail Gorbachev became terrorists and the like? That argument is made on these the General Secretary of the Communist party of the shores and I suspect it may be made by Putin’s Russia Soviet Union. That set off, or was the catalyst for, as well. momentous global change. Not all welcomed that change. For nearly two decades, the ECHR has enhanced Vladimir Putin and the hon. Member for Bradford Russia’s domestic legal system and provided an important West (George Galloway) lament the decline, demise and outlet of dissent for those most at risk in Putin’s Russia. fall of the Soviet Union, but western Europe and the Without it—we should remember this in debates that peoples of the freed countries of the Warsaw pact and we will, no doubt, have in this country on the ECHR in the former Soviet Union do not—they welcomed that years to come—many opponents of the Kremlin would change. That is not, however, to proclaim the end of not have been able to gain the same level of publicity for history, as was most unwisely done at the time. History their day-to-day plight. Naturally, if Russia withdrew has shown that she has a lot of resilience left in her yet. from the Council of Europe, the repercussions for such Where are we now? The annexation of Crimea and individuals would be considerable. Many colleagues conflict in Ukraine have undoubtedly focused attention, have spoken about those issues in detail this morning. but they did not come out of a clear blue sky. Assisted by the previous escalation in oil prices, Russia had Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is making a thoughtful already embarked on a substantial programme of contribution, but where does that leave us in relation to rearmament. I outlined that on Monday in the Chamber the enforcement of judgments? For example, it is clear in the debate on the non-proliferation treaty: that the Russian Federation is not going to comply with “We need to be concerned about the expansion of Russian the Yukos judgment against it. What sanction will there capability and a major modernisation of Russia’s strategic forces— involving the deployment of two new types of sea-launched be when it does not? ballistic missiles, a new class of ballistic missile submarines, a new type of intercontinental ballistic missile; and work on a new Mark Field: I accept that. That is, I am afraid, part of bomber and long-range cruise missiles.” the frustrating battle of diplomacy, which we can look I also said that Sir John Sawers, the previous head of at from afar, but which my right hon. Friend the Minister MI6, gave evidence that the Russians had indicated that has to deal with day to day. I think diplomacy within they were the Conservative party is bad enough, let alone having “prepared to use those weapons in certain circumstances.”—[Official to deal with the other 46 members of the Council of Report, 9 March 2015; Vol. 594, c. 118.] Europe, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that that is That rearmament has been accompanied by increasing the nature of the steadfast, patient way in which we activity and tension, especially but by no means exclusively approach these issues. We need to approach the issue of on Russia’s western borders. The pressure on countries Putin in a steadfast and patient way. in the near abroad, especially the Baltic states, has My long-term belief is that, looking at what is happening already been mentioned. Cyber-attacks have hit Estonia geopolitically, including with the rise of China, for in particular, and NATO is discussing its response to example—I know it pains many to even think in these such attacks. There is increasing maritime activity, terms—our relationship with Russia has to be part of particularly from submarines—not only in the Baltic, our solution, not part of our problem in the longer but around our shores. We have seen numerous instances, term. Putin will not be there for ever. We need to as have other countries, of near incursions by aviation recognise the importance of Russia as a place with activity, which is very much about testing our defences which we have to have a working, workable relationship. and our responses. We have also seen wider diplomatic That is in no way to justify what is going on. It is right initiatives, with an evolving approach from Russia. that we should try to work with whoever is leading We do not have time to explore Russia’s involvement Russia to ensure that, if we cannot solve the real problems in the middle east, but her deepening engagement in that we face, diplomatically, at least we are able to move Asia, whether multilaterally through the Shanghai steadfastly in the right direction. Cooperation Organisation or bilaterally with the agreement My main concern with a Russian withdrawal is that with China, is interesting and of concern; it remains to President Putin will use it as a sparkling opportunity to be seen whether they will be allies or adversaries in the stoke division and sow doubt among remaining members end. That engagement was aptly described, I think by of the Council of Europe. No nation has ever resigned The Economist, by the headline “Autocrats of the World, its membership, just as no country has ever left NATO, Unite”. The underlying question is whether Russia sees the eurozone or the European Union, and I hope that herself as a European power or whether she sees her 83WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 84WH of Europe of Europe [Mr John Spellar] It is extraordinary that we are cutting defence expenditure at the same time as we are cutting expenditure for the future in Asia. In other words, this is about the comment World Service, but we need to look at how we respond from General de Gaulle that Russia was not left, but across the wider complex and whether we stay engaged. east. That evolving situation has implications, including That is the crucial point arising from today’s debate. for our discussions here. The hon. Member for Christchurch wants to engage The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) outlined only with countries that are on the same page, but that at some length the position in the Council of Europe, is a policy for hermits. Russia is a fact and China is a but I was still slightly unclear at the end on whether he fact. We therefore need to look at how we can engage, had answered Vladimir Lenin’s question, “What is to be and we should not underestimate the impact of engagement done?”, particularly by Britain and our European allies. and of channels of communication and dialogue. Lenin asked that question in one of his pamphlets. There is good historical precedent for that. There was Clearly, the isolationism of the left or right is not a a lot of criticism by the Republican right of Republican realistic option—certainly not for Britain. As a member officials in the Administration when they undertook the of the P5, a leading member of the Commonwealth and Helsinki accords in 1975, which were seen as legitimising a member of the G7 and the G20, we are engaged Russia and its control over the near abroad. In fact, internationally. We dealt with the isolationism of the those officials provided the basis and the channels that left and the belief in unilateralism on Monday in the started to trigger the break-up of the Warsaw pact and debate on the non-proliferation treaty. Interestingly, the Soviet Union. It is about widening those channels. many of those engaged with the debate on the unilateralist As was rightly said by the hon. and learned Member for side held the same views in the cold war about the North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald), we should malign intentions—they did not see them as that—of not underestimate the value to Russian citizens of judgments the Soviet Union and the need to resist them. by the European Court of Human Rights. We also have to resist the isolationism of the right, We need to work to ensure that Russia meets its which seeks to detach us from the institutions of Europe obligations if it wants to remain a member or active and, in particular, the EU. The hon. Gentleman gave a participant in international forums. That is why we vigorous documentation of recent actions by Russia, support the steps taken so far by the Council of Europe but Europe’s response is crucial. Interestingly, my right to increase the pressure on President Putin to change hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South course. Nevertheless, it is important that we maintain East (Mr McFadden), whose portfolio this is, is addressing channels of communication, so that there is a possibility a conference on precisely that issue and our need for of moving forward through dialogue: ultimately, jaw-jaw engagement. He will be saying that the EU has in recent is better than war-war. months stood together to agree sanctions against Russia over its proxy war in Ukraine. 10.49 pm The security dimension of our membership of the EU is becoming more important. The hard edge of our The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I echo security will continue to be provided by NATO, but the comments of my colleagues who welcomed you to the commitment to the common values represented by the Chair, Mrs Brooke, and I wish you well after you the EU is crucial. Eurosceptics seek sovereignty, but the step down from the House of Commons at the forthcoming security situation demands common action and resolve. election. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for If the EU was to splinter or split, no one would be more Christchurch (Mr Chope) on securing and leading what pleased than President Putin, which is presumably why has been throughout an extremely serious-minded and he supports some of the populist parties of the right in thoughtful debate about not only Ukraine, but the more Europe, financially and rhetorically. It is no accident general relationship between the United Kingdom and that the political forces that he admires are anti-European, the west and Russia and how we should address the nor is it an accident that the Front National in France challenges that we currently face. has received loans of millions of euros from a Russian I rather agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for bank. It is also possibly no accident that Mr Farage has Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) when singled out Mr Putin for admiration “as an operator”. he said that there has been a tendency in the west to The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward underestimate the extent to which people in Russia see Leigh) used an unfortunate word—I do not blame him the era of Gorbachev and Yeltsinas a national humiliation. for it—when he talked about “understanding”. It has Nevertheless, I do not believe that that suggests that the an unfortunate resonance. The Germans have a phrase—the west has provoked President Putin and the current Putinversteher—for those who understand Putin. Talking Russian Government in the way that he sometimes tries about being able to “comprehend” the argument might to claim. When looking back over the past 10 years or be better, because we have to understand the different so, we see an effort by western countries to try to involve landscape that is evolving. I would say that it is reverting Russia in those international organisations that are the to a previous era. In Ukraine, we are seeing the core of a rules-based international order. We have seen implementation of hybrid warfare, with irregular forces Russia brought into the G7, which became the G8; into and a wide range of propaganda, which softens up the the World Trade Organisation and the OECD; and into will to resist. All that is reminiscent of the cold war, organisations such as the Council of Europe, which has when there was a wide cultural front that covered the been at the heart of today’s debate. arts, sport, non-governmental organisations and trade The right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) was unions. The labour attachés of the Russian and American correct to remind the House that we are looking not embassies were major players in the trade union movement only at Ukraine, nor even only at Ukraine and Georgia, in that period. but at a number of areas where, in recent years, Russia 85WH Russian Membership of the Council 11 MARCH 2015 Russian Membership of the Council 86WH of Europe of Europe has demonstrated a more aggressive pursuit of its national On verification, the Organisation for Security and interests and posed a greater challenge to a rules-based Co-operation in Europe is still not being granted full international system—or at least, a system that we had and unhindered access to the crisis zone. It seems to me hoped was rules-based. He mentioned cyber attacks that letting OSCE monitors through to see what is and the increase in air and naval activity. I could add to going on is a key test of Russia’s seriousness of purpose that list the abduction of an Estonian official from about whether it will try to turn the Minsk agreement Estonian soil. He is still in prison in Moscow, where he into something meaningful on the ground. has been for six months without evidence being brought As is clear from the debate, the issue is not only against him. I could also add the use of energy and Ukraine. We must look at the full range of tools of strategic investments as a weapon of Russian power, international diplomacy to influence Russia’s behaviour the 2007 suspension of Russian participation in the and hold it to account for its actions. Organisations conventional forces in Europe treaty and the fact that, such as the Council of Europe offer opportunities for only yesterday, Russia announced that it would suspend doing that. It is an organisation within which Russia its participation in the Joint Consultative Group, the itself has signed up to exacting standards in the field of committee in Vienna that monitors the CFE treaty. human rights, the rule of law and democracy. Sir Alan Meale: Perhaps the Minister could add to My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch asked that list trade with Armenia. Recently, Armenia agreed a straight question: do the Government think that to move closer to the European Union, resulting in a Russia is in breach of article 3? During the debate, I direct threat from Russia that if it continued to move reminded myself of the text of article 3; I am no lawyer, away from the Commonwealth of Independent States, but my political judgment is that I would feel pretty Russia would instead trade with nearby partners. hard-pressed to argue that Russia is currently compliant with it. Nevertheless, it is a separate political judgment Mr Lidington: The hon. Gentleman puts the point to decide what, if anything, should be done after that. well, and one could add other items to that list. As my hon. Friend knows, the Government’s judgment is that, on balance, despite its actions, it is currently We face not only a crisis over Ukraine, but an issue of better to have Russia inside the Council of Europe, principle. After the break-up of the Soviet Union, the where it can be held to account, than either suspended international community, including the Russian Federation, or expelled. recognised the republics that then became independent states as sovereign and entitled to determine their own The European Court of Human Rights is a crucial future. The question now is whether we believe that that mechanism for the protection of human rights against is an important principle that should be upheld for both the most egregious abuses. The cases of disappearances legal and political reasons, or that Russia is justified in and other serious abuses in Chechnya are important trying to exert some kind of informal imperium over examples of where the Court must focus its attention. those countries that used to be part of the Soviet The majority of human rights NGOs and defenders in Union. Russia tell us that the Court is the only chance they have of receiving some form of redress, which is why they Mr Mike Hancock: Will the Minister give way? value Russia’s continued membership of the Council of Europe. My hon. Friend mentioned the plight of Nadiya Mr Lidington: I am afraid I will not. I have just over Savchenko: the Government strongly support the five minutes left and want to respond to the points Committee of Ministers’ call for her immediate release made in the debate. on humanitarian grounds. Today, we mark the 25th anniversary of Lithuania’s The Council of Europe has an important role in recovery of its independence after half a century of supporting Ukraine, not least through the advice of the occupation. We would be foolish if we thought that Venice Commission on constitutional reform issues. I simply acquiescing in a breach of the principles of the agree that we should not allow Russia free passes; it sovereignty and territorial integrity of states would should be held to account. Depending on what Russia have consequences that could be confined even to Europe. does in practice, I do not rule out the need to review and Countries throughout the world are watching the crisis reconsider the Government’s current position. We do in Ukraine and drawing conclusions about how the see a sharply deteriorating situation in Russia in respect international community might or might not react in of human rights, the rule of law and democracy. other circumstances. We will continue to work in the Council of Europe, We welcome the Minsk implementation plan for Ukraine. the UN, the OSCE and other international organisations It is not perfect, but it is the best hope we have of to uphold our rules and values, and we will strive to turning a fragile and incomplete ceasefire into an effective bind Russia more closely to them. However, we should truce and then, I hope, into a peacemaking process. I not do that at any cost. If Russia continues to flout am advised that the latest situation is that the ceasefire those rules and undermine our values, that will bring has led to significant reductions in fighting, but there further isolation, economic damage and hardship for are still localised outbreaks of violence, especially around the Russian people themselves. I very much hope that hot spots such as Donetsk airport and Debaltseve. Russia will not choose that path. It is in her own Heavy weapons withdrawal has begun on both sides. long-term interests to embed the high standards in the On Monday, President Poroshenko said that Ukraine fields of human rights, democracy and the rule of law has withdrawn the lion’s share of its rocket and heavy to which the Russian Government have committed artillery systems and that the Russian-backed fighters themselves through their membership of the Council have also withdrawn a significant amount. of Europe. 87WH 11 MARCH 2015 British Hong Kong Servicemen 88WH

British Hong Kong Servicemen being afforded the privileges that they had fought for. All those who wished to do so should have been able to reside in the United Kingdom. 11 am Moreover,it is totally unacceptable that only 500 passports were allocated to the some 2,000-strong Hong Kong Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Good morning, Military Service Corps. Even more pertinently, repeated Mrs Brooke. I am proud to be given the opportunity to freedom of information requests have declined to state address the House today in support of all those who exactly how many of those 500 soldiers actually chose to served in Her Majesty’s armed forces in the former reside in the UK and to become British citizens. It is British Crown colony of Hong Kong, in particular the wholly wrong that only 25% of the serving British Hong Hong Kong Military Service Corps and the Hong Kong Kong soldiers in 1997 had access to UK citizenship and Royal Naval Service. that so many men were forced to be left behind to suffer Each and every one of us in the Chamber should an uncertain future under the control of communist salute with enormous pride the sacrifice made by all of China. Britain’s armed forces in defence of Queen and country The Home Office has stated in correspondence that over the past century, but none are more loyal servants the original citizenship policy was “fair and just”, but to and truer guardians of the British Crown than the how could it be when only some 500 soldiers out of the Hong Kong ex-servicemen. I am grateful that today we 2,000 in the entire Hong Kong Military Service Corps have the opportunity to bring into the spotlight a could obtain UK citizenship, even had they all applied number of those who were prepared to uphold British for citizenship? I understand and indeed acknowledge rule in Hong Kong and to serve their country with the reasons why the allocation for the entire Hong Kong bravery and dignity. In spite of that, they have faced population was capped at 50,000, but surely we must grave injustice. They are servicemen who have been look after our armed forces first and foremost. We have indiscriminately denied the right to claim citizenship of a duty to those who have given their oath of allegiance the nation to which they swore their allegiance, under to Her Majesty the Queen and who have performed the Crown that they served so gallantly. their duty to Britain. In the final days of this Parliament I call upon Her The Home Office has said that those men were only Majesty’s Government to right that wrong and to recognise locally employed, with the status of locally enlisted the ex-servicemen’s entitlement to full British citizenship. personnel—since they were recruited locally, they would We should offer priority citizenship to all former Hong not have had the expectation of or automatic right to a Kong soldiers of the British Hong Kong Military Service British passport. If that is indeed the case, perhaps the Corps and those who served in the Hong Kong Royal Minister will explain why 500 passports were allocated Naval Service. at all? Why were any one of the Hong Kong ex-servicemen Those proud people were born British, they lived as given British citizenship? Surely they should all have Britons, they fought to defend Britain and they paid been treated the same. Those men were all born British, into the British Treasury in the same way that we who but some of them were denied the right to be British live within the islands of the United Kingdom do. It and to have the citizenship that they had every right to was not the choice of those loyal people for the sovereignty obtain. of Hong Kong to move to the People’s Republic of Those veterans, whom I have had the honour to get China in June 1997—no self-determination for them, to know in recent months, would tell you that they are no referendum about their future. Indeed, Hong Kong British—they are more British than they would ever was the only British colony where the inhabitants had consider themselves to be Chinese. It was an appalling no direct say over their own destiny. In such circumstances, injustice to transfer their national status overnight from it is only just for anyone who served in the forces of the being British Hong Kong to Hong Kong Chinese, without Crown to be granted the British nationality that was even giving them the option to remain British subjects. always theirs. The time has now surely arrived to correct that injustice As the Minister is aware, between 1990 and 1997, the and to grant those proud men the British citizenship British Government established a scheme that permitted that should rightly be theirs. a select number of British Hong Kong citizens to be The Home Office has stated that, under existing granted full British citizenship. Only 50,000 persons legislation, individuals from Hong Kong may follow the were eligible, as per the recommendation of the Governor immigration process and apply for UK citizenship. Such of Hong Kong at the time. What is regularly overlooked legislative provisions, however, by no means guarantee is the allocation of that 50,000 was more or less the outcome. They fail to acknowledge the seriousness indiscriminate and the scheme did not pay the necessary of our failure of duty to those former servicemen and or deserved attention to those who took the extra step the debt that we owe them. to serve Queen and country. I was recently granted a debate and addressed the Among the scheme categories, British Hong Kong House in Westminster Hall about Commonwealth visas soldiers were placed in the disciplined services class, or and immigration. Much of my frustration in that debate DSC, which was primarily based on a points system. is echoed in the sentiments that I am expressing in the Various factors were considered, such as the soldier’s debate today. We continue to tolerate uncontrolled and army rank, qualifications, length of regular service and indiscriminate immigration from the European Union so on. In my firm view, that represents a remarkable while neglecting those to whom we owe true allegiance error in the process. Beyond doubt, those servicemen and with whom we enjoy a shared history and friendship should have been allocated their own armed forces going back sometimes many hundreds of years. In this class. They were serving in the conventional British instance, the former British soldiers and naval personnel armed forces and should have been treated as such, thus from Hong Kong who were prepared to lay down their 89WH British Hong Kong Servicemen11 MARCH 2015 British Hong Kong Servicemen 90WH lives in service to our country appear now, frankly, to be 11.13 am held in lower esteem than a citizen from an EU member The Minister for Security and Immigration (James state. How can that be right? Brokenshire): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member I remind the House of our obligations under the for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) on securing this debate armed forces covenant, which stipulates clearly that we and on the passionate way in which he has advocated have a duty to our veterans and their families. The not only his case, but the interests of Hong Kong ex-servicemen from Hong Kong were part of the British ex-servicemen who served with the Hong Kong Military Regular Army, working side by side with British troops Service Corps. He rightly underlined the service they both in Hong Kong and elsewhere. These men are now gave to this country. our veterans. The covenant involves an obligation for I am afraid that I will not be able to accede to the life, and the commitment and sacrifices made by veterans request my hon. Friend has made this morning, and I in the past, as well as their continuing value to society, hope to explain some of the reasons for the approach should be properly recognised in the support that they that has been taken consistently by the Government. receive. However, that should in no way be taken as undermining To many, however, it seems that these veterans of or casting any negative impression of the important ours now form a forgotten part of British history. They service those people provided. I hope that I will be able are soldiers who fought in numerous wars, who were to explain some of our thinking and some of the awarded high honours and medals for bravery and were existing rights. I know that my hon. Friend will continue distinguished for their gallant service and sacrifice. It is to make the points that he has in the way that he has. I surely a sad day when we find ourselves putting together honestly hope that he will be returned safely as the bureaucratic excuses to push a matter such as this one Member for Romford at the general election and so will under the carpet. We have no reason other than sheer be able to continue to make his case in the next Parliament defiance for turning our backs on our own veterans. as well, as the issue will no doubt be returned to then. As I said to the House in the emergency debate on My hon. Friend has suggested that former Hong Hong Kong in December last year, Britain has no Kong servicemen should be given a right of abode in interest in interfering in the internal affairs and politics the United Kingdom. Under current legislation, the of China. But Hong Kong is different. Britain has a only people who have the right of abode here are British duty to the people of Hong Kong and we must not citizens and some Commonwealth citizens who had abandon them. The United Kingdom owes an allegiance secured that right before the law changed in 1983. It has to the people of Hong Kong, but particularly those who been a long-established practice in British nationality served bravely in Her Majesty’s armed forces. They law for British nationality to be lost when a country should not be left behind any longer. ceases to be a UK territory. That has been the case since On 6 November last year, along with a number of the 1949, when countries such as Australia and Canada Hong Kong veterans, I delivered a formal petition to ceased to be colonies, and was so through the 1950s and the Prime Minister at No. 10 Downing street. The 1960s, when countries such as Uganda and Jamaica research team involved with the campaign for right of became independent. abode for Hong Kong ex-servicemen managed to locate The normal practice is that those who acquired British 302 Hong Kong Military Service Corps veterans, 301 of nationality only through a connection with the newly whom signed the petition—a pretty high percentage— independent country ceased to be such a national on asking for equal rights for those soldiers and military independence. The only people who retained British personnel. We are not talking about thousands of people; nationality were those with a continuing connection we are talking about a relatively small number of people with the UK—for example, through birth here or descent who are over there, but want to be here and to have the from someone born here. It was not the practice for right to be British. Why should they not have that right? nationality to be retained as a reward for service within They have served our country and deserve to be treated the former territory. equally. I urge the Minister to examine the issue more We accept that the position with Hong Kong was closely and to find a solution sooner rather than later. unique. Before Hong Kong was returned to China on 1 It is clearly time to reflect on the injustice that has July 1997, it was a British dependent territory. Therefore, been carried out. The situation is unique and the British persons acquiring nationality only through a connection Government need to address it. It simply cannot be with Hong Kong were British dependent territories right to stand idly by while fellow Britons who served citizens: they would not have held British citizenship, diligently in Her Majesty’s armed forces are forced to and thus had no right of abode in the UK. remain in a country where they do not feel truly at The position with Hong Kong was also unique in home and where, as they have explained to me first that British dependent territories citizens with a connection hand, they often feel persecuted and discriminated against with Hong Kong were given the right to acquire the for their allegiance to the Crown. status of British nationals overseas and to retain that We must take the opportunity to undo the errors of new status for life. Therefore, when someone ceased to the past and offer these men what is a small token when be a British dependent territories citizen in 1997, they compared with what they really deserve. It is deeply sad could still hold a form of British nationality. The issuing to have to say that successive Governments have opted of passports to people with the status of British nationals to turn their back on these soldiers. I believe it is high overseas began on 1 July 1987. British nationals overseas time for the policy on this matter to change. It is time are eligible for British consular protection and services for those who have proudly served Queen and country when travelling or residing abroad and are exempt from Hong Kong to be given the recognition they so under the immigration rules from any requirement to richly deserve—time, indeed, for Her Majesty’s Government hold an entry certificate or visa to visit the UK. However, to do the right thing. they do not have the right of abode in the UK. 91WH British Hong Kong Servicemen11 MARCH 2015 British Hong Kong Servicemen 92WH

[James Brokenshire] Andrew Rosindell: The Minister rightly mentioned Australia, but will he acknowledge that many former It was not, of course, obligatory for British dependent colonies have an ancestry visa that allows people to territories citizens in Hong Kong to apply for British come to live in the UK if they choose to? Furthermore, national overseas status, but they could apply even if all the other former colonies he may be thinking about they held another nationality. If they did not choose to are members of the Commonwealth. Uniquely, Hong apply and on 1 July 1997 had another nationality, they Kong is denied the opportunity to be a member, because automatically lost British nationality. If on 1 July 1997 it has been taken into the People’s Republic of China. they did not have another nationality and would otherwise The people of Hong Kong are therefore hugely have become stateless, they automatically became British disadvantaged, compared with those of any other former overseas citizens. Those arrangements ensured that no British colony he may care to mention. one was left stateless as a result of the handover to China. A large number of people in Hong Kong chose James Brokenshire: I hear my hon. Friend’s point. to apply for British national overseas status. We estimate Hong Kong certainly has a unique status, but I underline that there are approximately 3.4 million holders of the fact that we had the selection scheme from 1990 to BNO passports in Hong Kong, the majority of whom 1997. Those who hold British national overseas status are also Chinese citizens. or British overseas citizenship through a connection My hon. Friend has already referred to the British with Hong Kong have a route to British citizenship if nationality selection scheme, which was introduced in they do not have another citizenship or nationality. 1990. That scheme was set up in recognition of the fact Under the British Nationality (Hong Kong) Act 1997, that the confidence of the Hong Kong people needed to a person who is ordinarily resident in Hong Kong on be restored leading up to the handover in 1997. It was the date of application and who was resident there on felt that granting British citizenship to 50,000 of Hong 3 February 1997 as a British overseas territories citizen Kong’s best-qualified key people, together with their can apply to register as a British citizen if he or she has spouses and minor children, was a means of achieving no other nationality. Similarly, section 4B of the British that aim. Under the scheme, 7,000 places were allocated Nationality Act 1981 allows for the registration of to the disciplined services class. Places were given to British nationals if they do not hold any other citizenship each service in proportion to their staff numbers. For or nationality and would otherwise be stateless and if individuals within the services, a points system was used they have not voluntarily renounced or relinquished to select applicants. There was also a framework to another nationality. I accept that those provisions are award additional special circumstances points in the available only to British nationals who would otherwise disciplined services class to reflect the varying needs of be stateless and that many former Hong Kong service each service. Registration under the scheme was optional. personnel will have Chinese nationality. However, they Those applying had to submit an application and fee can rely on that Chinese citizenship for travel, and they before a specified date. We remain of the view that the have a right of residence in Hong Kong. route to gaining a British passport under the scheme The Government are committed to creating a fair was fair and that the criteria were clear. As such, it immigration system and to righting the wrongs of history would not be appropriate to revisit the terms of the where it is appropriate to do so. In the Immigration Act scheme, which was established in 1990, and to introduce 2014, we therefore created a registration route for people additional measures for those who were not selected. who would have become British citizens but for the fact Members of the Hong Kong Military Service Corps that their British father was not married to their mother. played an important role in the British garrison in I am pleased to say that that provision will be commenced Hong Kong—a point my hon. Friend made clearly, on 6 April, and applications can be made on or after effectively and passionately—but they were locally recruited, that date. and the majority remained in Hong Kong for most of I want to come back to my hon. Friend on the their careers, so there was a distinction, in that their Government’s commitment to supporting our armed service was conducted in Hong Kong, rather than in forces. The armed forces covenant was published in other places where British forces were deployed on May 2011, and it is based on the principles of removing active service. disadvantage for serving personnel in accessing public and commercial services and of allowing special provision We recognise the contribution of those who served in in some circumstances, such as for the injured or bereaved. Hong Kong, and we are grateful for their dedicated Through the Armed Forces Act 2006, as amended by service. However, it is not appropriate to single them the Armed Forces Act 2011, we have enshrined in law out by granting them citizenship exceptionally.We recognise the need to have regard to those two key principles and their service, but other groups who served under the an obligation to produce an annual report on the covenant’s dependent territory Government and who may also operation in a number of areas, including health, education, have demonstrated commitment in their line of work welfare and inquests. The covenant is an obligation on may equally have failed to be selected. Similarly, others the whole of society. It includes voluntary and charitable may have served while their territory was a colony, but bodies, private organisations and individuals, all of they may not have gained British citizenship—for example, whom are asked to recognise our armed forces and to Australian Anzacs in the second world war and those offer respect, support and fair treatment. who served in colonial police forces. We have a positive record on providing for the armed Those who hold British national overseas status or forces in immigration and nationality matters. Nationality British overseas citizenship through a connection with legislation was amended last year to give the Secretary Hong Kong already have a route to British citizenship if of State discretion to overlook, in armed forces cases, they do not have another citizenship or nationality. the requirement to be physically in the UK on day one 93WH British Hong Kong Servicemen11 MARCH 2015 British Hong Kong Servicemen 94WH of the five-year qualifying residency period for We recognise the service provided by former Hong naturalisation. Therefore, members or former members Kong military personnel, but I underline the fact that it of Her Majesty’s forces on overseas postings at the is not appropriate to revisit decisions made as part of relevant time will not have to wait longer to become the selection scheme introduced under the British British citizens. We have introduced processes to enable Nationality (Hong Kong) Act 1990 and to create another foreign or Commonwealth members of Her Majesty’s category of people entitled to become British citizens forces to apply for settlement in advance of discharge, and to have the right of abode in the UK. My hon. thus smoothing the transition to civilian life. Both those Friend will continue to press the point— measures were priority commitments under the armed forces covenant. Andrew Rosindell: Will the Minister give way? In addition, changes to the immigration rules in 2013 provided, for the first time, a single set of rules for the James Brokenshire: I will briefly give way one final dependants of members of Her Majesty’s forces, regardless time because I know how passionately my hon. Friend of the nationality of their sponsor. Those rules mirror believes in the issue, which I am sure he will continue to those for dependants of British and settled civilians, but campaign on. they contain some flexibility to ensure that the armed forces community is not disadvantaged through service life. For example, partners of members of Her Majesty’s Andrew Rosindell: The Minister has clearly taken on forces can serve their probationary period outside the board all the points I made, and he clearly senses that UK if they are accompanying their sponsor on an there is an injustice, which could be looked at. Is he overseas posting, and they are granted a longer period willing to meet me and representatives of the Hong of initial leave to prevent the financial disadvantage of Kong ex-servicemen to see whether there is a way forward renewing leave from overseas. and to find a long-term solution? Let me return to the right of abode for former Hong Kong servicemen. It would not be right to grant citizenship James Brokenshire: As my hon. Friend will appreciate, to this group of locally recruited staff who were engaged we have little time left in this Parliament to consider by the UK Government, who remained in Hong Kong further representations, although I know the Minister for most of their careers and who would not, at the time of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right of their service, have had an expectation or automatic hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), right of British citizenship. has written to my hon. Friend about this issue. What I This is a continuing concern to my hon. Friend and can say is that I note my hon. Friend’s representations, other Members of the House. Indeed, the Foreign Affairs and I am sure we will return to the issue in the next Committee made recommendations about British nationals Parliament to hear further representations. overseas in the report that it published last week— my hon. Friend is a member of the Committee—and the Foreign Office is giving due consideration to those 11.30 am recommendations. Sitting suspended. 95WH 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 96WH income Countries HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- We now have almost 14 million people across the income Countries world accessing ARV—antiretroviral therapy—compared with fewer than 1 million 10 years ago. That is a tremendous, unprecedented achievement, which is the result of the global community coming together and a [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] campaigning movement unlike anything the world has seen before. Many of the people who access treatment 2.30 pm are able to do so thanks to the work of the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. I commend Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): It is a the Government for their significant commitment of pleasure to serve under your chairpersonship, Mrs Main. £1 billion to the fund, and also for the utilisation of the I and the other members of the all-party group on HIV UK’s influence on convincing other donor countries to and AIDS are extremely grateful to be granted this contribute. debate to discuss access to HIV treatment in low and So, 14 million people on treatment is clearly a significant middle-income countries. The debate is based on the number, but that leaves us around 21 million people in findings of our “Access Denied” report, which our the world still unable to access treatment. That is equivalent group has been working on for a long time, so we to three out of every five people living with HIV unable appreciate the chance to bring it to Westminster Hall to access ARVs. If 60% sounds high, the figure is even today. higher and even worse when we consider paediatric I am grateful to the members of the group who have care. Of those children and adolescents living with HIV, come to join us today. They have shown great dedication 80% are unable to access treatment; we covered that in to this issue, which has not been riding high in the depth in the report. We have reached a crossroads in the public agenda in recent years. Nevertheless, it is still AIDS response. Progress has been made, but international extremely important and I am grateful for their support. aid and public interest in HIV and AIDS is no doubt It is notable that the group has extremely active members diminishing. from all political parties represented in the House of Commons, and we have many active members According to figures from UNAIDS, international of considerable experience from the other place, too. donor funding for the HIV response is stagnating, with The cross-party consensus has been consistent for the funds remaining largely the same since 2008, despite the four years that I have been chair of the group, as fact that we now have an increased scientific understanding I understand it was before my chairpersonship, and I of HIV.We now know, for example, that starting treatment hope that that will long continue. earlier saves lives, and, thanks to groundbreaking research, we have proof that treatment is highly effective at The debate is about access to HIV treatment in low preventing transmission of the virus in the first place. and middle-income countries, but many issues that we That new tool, combined with improved targeting of a will cover today, and which were covered in the report, range of effective prevention interventions, means that are relevant to various diseases of poverty. I hope that we could significantly reduce the number of new cases we are able to discuss some of those later in the debate. of HIV by scaling up our response. Our report outlines the findings of almost one year To sum up my introduction, we have the tools at our of research conducted by the all-party group, which disposal to end AIDS in a generation, so this is not the included visits to South Africa and India, and also time for us to walk away from that important issue. This many written and oral evidence sessions here in Parliament. is the time when we have to scale up the response. The Despite the incredible progress that has been made in Government have been at the forefront of that so far, the battle against HIV, there remain many barriers to and I want that to continue. accessing medicines and treatment in low and middle- income countries. The latest estimates from UNAIDS—the Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): The hon. joint UN programme on HIV/AIDS—show that there Lady is absolutely right. We need renewed political are around 35 million people infected and living with commitment to keep the momentum going so that we HIV globally. There are encouraging figures, too. New do not lose it and undo much of the good work that we infections have reduced from a peak of 3.4 million in have achieved to date. 2001 to 2.1 million in 2013, the most recent year that we have complete figures for. However, 2.1 million is still a staggering number of people, so we must continue to do Pamela Nash: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that everything we can until we reach the ultimate goal of intervention. He is an active member of the all-party zero infections. group, and I appreciate his support in the work that we AIDS-related deaths have fallen from a peak of do. 2.3 million in 2005 to 1.5 million in 2013. In the past I want to move on to the barriers to accessing treatment, three years alone, deaths have fallen by a huge 19%. The which we have drawn attention to in our report. Various statistics show that incredible progress is being made, barriers were obvious to us at the beginning of our but those huge numbers also show that more must be inquiry, but the impact of many came as a surprise. done. Behind the statistics are real people trying to live Barriers include the continued high cost of second and fulfilling lives. Mothers and fathers are trying to provide third-line treatments. The cost of first-line treatments for their families, and young people are facing the has come down considerably, particularly due to the prospect of a lifetime living with a currently incurable, fantastic impact of the medicines patent pool. Indeed, although treatable, disease. If they are to have any the full impact that that will have is yet to come to chance of a high quality of life, they must be able to fruition. However, second and third-line treatments remain access treatment. very expensive for the poorest people living with HIV. 97WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 98WH income Countries income Countries In our inquiry, we also found that there is completely that are available as a result of the voluntary licences, inadequate access to the most effective testing and and that has been instrumental in increasing access to diagnostic tools, especially viral load testing. We found treatment. that continued weak and unsupported health systems in We now have a price for first-line treatments of around low and middle-income countries were having a direct $100 per person per year, whereas 10 years ago it was impact on people living with HIV. Poor supply chain $10,000 per person per year, so there has been a huge management is having an impact, although it is avoidable drop in price. Unfortunately, however, if a patient’s with technical support. Lack of investment in research first-line treatment is failing and second and third-line and development is still having an impact. We found treatments are required, the cost of those treatments that particularly in lower priority areas and in less still remains high. profitable treatment areas such as paediatric medicines. In many countries there is still no political prioritisation Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): of key populations most at risk, unlike here in the UK I genuinely congratulate my hon. Friend on securing with our development work. We still see men who have this extremely important debate. Will she expand on the sex with men, sex workers, injecting drug users and role of the pharmaceutical industry? On page 21, the transgender people not getting the prioritisation that report mentions that they need. They are being left behind, even in countries “a leaked document outlining a lobbying plan for the Innovative that are otherwise doing well in creating access to Pharmaceutical Association South Africa (IPASA)—the representative medicine. We also continue to see severe stigma and body for pharmaceutical companies in South Africa—highlighted discrimination with respect to all people who live with the industry’s plans to delay reforms.” HIV. That stops people accessing not only treatment, What does that mean? but advice on prevention and testing. That is causing people to contract HIV; it is not just affecting their Pamela Nash: We met the South African Government treatment. and lobby groups in South Africa on that issue. There was a war between the pharmaceutical companies and Sharp reductions in support—financial, technical and Médecins sans Frontières and other smaller groups otherwise—to countries becoming classified as middle about this, and it was part of a wider campaign from income is having a direct impact on the treatment of some pharmaceutical companies to prevent any legislation people living with HIV. To be clear, that is a much that might reduce their power to have higher prices. bigger debate in international development, but it is a That included such things as “evergreening”, which we clear example of the impact that is happening. have seen in other countries, when patents are granted I will discuss some of those barriers in more depth, for a drug because there is a slight change in its chemical but I will start with the cost of treatment. Treatment composition. Drugs are designed to have a new patent prices remain one of the biggest barriers to accessing and therefore get round some of the existing patent ARV treatment. From my experience in the all-party legislation. group and otherwise, the justification that we have There has been a lot of experience of those companies often heard for high prices of medications has been the trying to dodge that, but there are good examples of extremely high cost of research and development. Although companies such as Gilead, which have been willing to that is a considerable cost and investment for many be at the forefront of being part of voluntary licences pharmaceutical companies, it was enlightening to hear, and of the medicines patent pool. I do not want to in one oral evidence session for the report, a pharmaceutical stand here and paint the pharmaceutical companies as company representative admit that it is not the case that the bad guys, because without them we would not have that determines the price. He was clear in saying that those drugs, but we want to encourage responsible the price of treatments is primarily driven by licensing behaviour from them and ensure that they realise what costs and decisions by pharmaceutical companies about a fantastic contribution they can make to the public what the market will bear. health of the world and of people living with HIV. As I said before the intervention from my hon. Friend Intellectual property rights grant exclusive rights to the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim manufacture drugs without competition, and that lack Sheridan), there is still a clear problem with second and of competition leads to high prices. That said, there is a third-line medication being much more expensive than globally accepted principle that IP rights and patents do first-line treatment. In relation to the points that my not interfere with public health. That was not always hon. Friend made, issues have been raised about free the case, however, and in my experience threats to that trade agreements, in the inquiry and since with the principle have been overcome only by huge public all-party group. campaigns. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership Governments can bypass IP rights if there is a public will certainly not be a stranger to the inboxes of most health need by imposing compulsory licences. Alternatively, Members in Westminster Hall today. TTIP and the innovator drug companies can agree voluntary licences. Asia-Pacific Trans-Pacific Partnership—free trade Both those ways allow generic pharmaceutical companies agreements that are under negotiation—seem to pose to produce quality-assured generic treatments. We saw the risk of introducing additional property rights restrictions that first hand during our inquiry, when we visited or extending patent exclusivity. Although TTIP and India and South Africa. We visited generic companies TPP do not have a direct impact on the low and and saw the work that they were doing, and we went to middle-income countries that we are discussing, an clinics to see the people who were being treated with impact will be felt by them. There is a reasonable fear those drugs, who otherwise would not be receiving any that the precedent set by those trade agreements will medication. We now have affordable first-line treatments have an impact and shape future agreements. 99WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 100WH income Countries income Countries [Pamela Nash] not instantly equate to improved living standards or fantastic new health systems, particularly for the poorest Any introduction of more onerous patent rules would and hardest to reach. In relation to access to treatment, hinder the ability of generic manufacturers to operate funding decisions should be based solely on evidence. and reduce competition and drive prices back up. That As bilateral donors such as us are withdrawing funding would be disastrous for access to treatment, and our from middle-income countries, so the burden falls on Government must do all they can to protect global multilateral donors to plug the gaps until countries in public health within these and future agreements. I transition can fund their services from domestic resources. would be grateful if the Minister clarified today whether However, we have seen multilateral organisations following the Department for International Development shares the lead of bilateral donors and reducing support for any of those concerns and if he put on record his middle-income countries. Department’s formal input into free trade agreements. I I repeat to the Minister that we should not underestimate appreciate that some of that is private, but I am asking the influence that the UK has globally. I say that not how the Department does that and whether he feels that with a conceited British ego, but from the experience of has an impact on the Government’s view as they go into speaking to multilateral donors and the people who run these negotiations. those organisations and to people from donor countries I shall move on to middle-income countries. During and from countries that benefit. When we speak to the inquiry, I was particularly struck, more than ever them, they beg us to bring to DFID the view that this is before in my involvement in international development, a huge problem. If a solution to it is to be found, it will by the squeeze on middle-income countries and particularly require political leadership from the British Government by the impact on the poorest people living in those and DFID and a concerted effort to make this issue a countries. As I said, this is part of a much bigger debate priority to ensure that it receives the necessary political in international development—it is not confined to attention. Will the Minister tell us whether that is HIV—but access to medicine is a clear example of recognised by the Government and whether there is any where we might be going wrong. change in the Government’s thinking on how we look at In providing HIV treatment, middle-income countries middle-income countries and their support, particularly in particular are facing a crisis of increased prices on this issue but also more generally? combined with reduced financial support. Many of As I said, the current models of research and those countries are excluded from the licensing deals development are not delivering all the treatments necessary that I just mentioned for first-line treatments that allow to meet public health needs. R and D is not prioritised generic production and supply, forcing them to purchase based on need; it is prioritised according to the most from innovator pharmaceutical companies at market profitable products. In our report, we found that there is prices. Those prices are prohibitive and inconsistent. a gap in relation to treatment for many HIV co-infections, For example, prices for second-line drugs in Argentina paediatric treatment and diagnostics for small children. are $2,570 per person per year, and the price in Mexico Existing models for R and D rely on pharmaceutical is similar. That is over 12 times the price that South companies securing patents that grant exclusive rights Africa pays at $204 per person per year, which is double to sell the drugs that they develop. If a potential market the price that I mentioned earlier of $100, which is does not exist, there is currently no incentive to develop available for first-line drugs in many low-income countries. products. The need for market advantage reduces At the same time as they face increased prices, many collaboration between researchers and increases delays middle-income countries are having their official in research into potential vaccines and cures and more development assistance withdrawn from bilateral and effective treatment regimes. multilateral donors. As far as I can see, that has been At this point, I want to highlight the fact that in the this Government’s policy, not only in bilateral support, report we note the disappointment in the UK Government but in using the UK’s influence on the expenditure of for withdrawing 80% of the funding for the International multilateral donors to which we contribute, such as the AIDS Vaccine Initiative and research into an HIV global fund. In addition, we are, in my view, using vaccine. Will the Government reconsider that? If not, outdated country classifications and pushing more and can the Minister explain why not? more countries prematurely into middle-income status. On treatment, a key recommendation in the report is When those factors combine, national Governments for DFID to play a role in developing new R and D in middle-income countries are unable to provide services, models that are delinked from profits, based on open leading to a treatment crisis. Classification of countries data sharing and reward people for the development of must move away from the current gross national income new clinical technologies, rather than exclusive sales to a more nuanced analysis. Further support needs to rights being granted. We have recent examples of where be given to countries, as they graduate through what I have described could be a continued problem classifications. Decisions about the provision of aid and where the solution that we have proposed could need to be based on need, not just country classifications, work. The Ebola crisis is a good example of the failings although it is completely correct that resources should of the current global model, whereby a vaccine is developed be prioritised to those who need them most. only after a crisis has developed because there was no Of course, we should expect countries to take on an market incentive to develop one before. Médecins sans ever-increasing responsibility for their own development Frontières estimates that a vaccine for Ebola will emerge as they become wealthier, but we should not assume not from a private laboratory, but from publicly funded that a country with a label of middle-income status has research. the resources or the technical capacity to cope with aid Models for encouraging innovation in relation to being withdrawn. The inequality within middle-income HIV and neglected diseases can broadly be divided into countries must be kept in mind. Increasing GNI does push and pull mechanisms. Push mechanisms reduce 101WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 102WH income Countries income Countries the risks and costs of investment in R and D. They whether their treatment was failing. That is something include direct funding of research and tax credits, both that we do not need to live with in this country, and we of which have already been used by the UK Government. have the technology to stop it happening. I feel that we The main drawback to push mechanisms, such as direct have a responsibility to try to increase the capacity for funding, is that they require funders to make a judgment viral load testing across the world as soon as possible. about which research bodies are most likely to achieve Even as the tests are becoming more affordable, there the needed results. Clearly, more research is needed into remains a challenge to ensure that these systems are in who would be the best people to make that judgment. place. There is a need to develop affordable, accurate Pull mechanisms, in contrast, create an extra incentive point-of-care testing to increase available testing and to to achieve the result, such as a new medicine, with the reduce delays. That would avoid the need for patients to benefit delivered only on achievement. Examples of travel hundreds of miles to testing centres far from their such mechanisms include prizes for the first researchers homes and would significantly improve the quality of to come up with a specified innovation, advance market care received by patients. commitments or tax credits on the sale of a certain Diagnostics are just one area where we see a disparity product that has yet to be developed. There are examples in treatment between rich and poor countries. We also of that already. see that across the spectrum of clinical settings. Distribution We have seen success in delinking R and D costs in networks and health systems in low and middle-income relation to the meningitis A vaccine initiative. That countries are far behind where they need to be. Supply developed an adapted meningitis A vaccine through chains are vulnerable to a number of issues, resulting in collaborative research, which included the National poor access to treatments. Those challenges include Institutes of Health and the Serum Institute of India, a significant delays in registering new drugs, poor demand private vaccines company. The cost of the vaccine is forecasting and ordering, inadequate storage facilities, approximately 50 cents a dose. Furthermore, delinked stock-outs, corruption and poor patient record models of R and D are under consideration for the management. I would be grateful if the Minister outlined development of new antibiotics, particularly because what his Department is doing to address those issues there are no incentives for industry to develop products and to support health system strengthening to improve that are meant to be both affordable and conserved or access to treatment, particularly in terms of what we tightly managed. can do to encourage investment in making viral load Our research findings show that the Government testing cheaper and more accessible to low and middle- could be doing much more to explore the benefits of income countries. alternative research models, and I urge them to commission The final issue that I will consider is that key populations a paper analysing the costs and benefits of alternative are being left behind. That has been much debated in R and D models. I ask the Minister whether the Department the main Chamber and in this room by the all-party is considering that. It was a key recommendation of the group on HIV and AIDS and by our friends among “AccessDenied”report and was previously communicated other all-party groups. In addition to the practical, to the Department. scientific and economic barriers that have been outlined, I want to touch on another finding of the report—the there are definite social barriers to treatment. The UNAIDS lack of access to viral load testing. We need effective report on the global AIDS epidemic demonstrates that diagnostic tools if we are to provide quality care, but we key populations are being left behind when it comes to are seeing very limited investment in that area of research access to treatment across the globe. The problem is not and provision. Viral load testing is the gold standard of confined to low, middle or upper-middle-income countries, diagnostic testing, with increases in viral load indicating but it is particularly acute in some upper-middle-income treatment failure. If any of us in this Chamber were countries—such as former Soviet Union states and living with HIV in the UK, we would be undergoing countries in central Asia—because HIV epidemics are regular viral load testing to ensure the effectiveness of growing rapidly among key populations. our treatment. The idea is that if the treatment is not As MSF pointed out in its submission to our inquiry, effective, people are moved on to second-line or third-line the problem of pricing in such countries is compounded treatment as soon as possible. by the fact that the epidemics are not generalised but In low and middle-income countries, however, viral concentrated in marginalised populations. For the avoidance load testing is limited, which leads to lower standards of of doubt, I am talking about injecting drug users, sex care and delays in identifying treatment failure. There workers, men who have sex with men, and the transgender have been recent moves to reduce prices, but the tests population. As I outlined earlier, many global funders are carried out only in specialist centres with limited actively restrict funding to such countries. That inevitably capacity. When I was in India, we went to a clinic and creates barriers to access for the most vulnerable groups, saw the situation at first hand. There was very limited because there is no political will in those countries to capacity to provide viral load testing. When someone help the key populations that are most affected. was suspected of having a treatment failure, they had to The UNAIDS report highlighted the barriers to go in front of a board. There were layers and layers of treatment created by punitive and discriminatory legislation bureaucracy for such a person. The only justification in many countries: that I can give is that people there just did not have the capacity and were trying to limit the number of individuals “As of 2013, 63 countries have in at least one jurisdiction, going for viral load testing because they could not specific provisions that allow for the persecution of HIV nondisclosure, exposure and/or transmission. Criminalisation of key populations afford to send any more. When we met representatives also remains widespread, and 60% of countries report having of organisations that were lobbying the Government laws, regulations or policies which present obstacles to effective and, indeed, us on this issue, they told us horrific stories HIV prevention, treatment, care and support for key populations of people who had died waiting to get a test to know and vulnerable groups.” 103WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 104WH income Countries income Countries [Pamela Nash] new HIV transmissions. Social factors play a significant role in reducing HIV transmission. If people know how Stigma and discrimination must be challenged wherever the virus is transmitted, they can often take action to they are encountered, whether at a community or a protect themselves—often, but not always, because social state-wide level. If we do not remove social barriers to factors such as stigma, discrimination and inequality accessing testing and treatment, scientific advances will can reduce the options available to vulnerable and be ineffective. The thing I find most painful about this marginalised groups. Fear and lack of knowledge about section of the report is that the position of key populations how HIV is transmitted can lead to stigma and is not improving but getting worse. There have been discrimination, which make people afraid to get tested many debates in this Chamber about the situation in or to reveal their status. Uganda and the change in its laws, and there has been Fourthly, we must consider social barriers. Women much interest in what has happened in Russia. There is and girls face a disproportionate risk of HIV, and it has cross-party support in the House for fighting discrimination, a disproportionate impact on them, because of gender and I am proud of our country’s record of working to power imbalances that result in economic disempowerment, do so. I hope that that will continue. gender-based violence and the denial of their human In conclusion, I am grateful to have had the opportunity rights. Others at high risk of contracting HIV—including to debate this important subject. Hon. Members may those who use drugs, sex workers, prisoners and people think that I have gone on a bit, but I could speak for from LGBT communities—often cannot access evidence- hours about the detail of the report. It was born out of based prevention services because of punitive laws, the huge impact of the report on access to medicines stigma and discrimination. Young people are denied that our predecessor group published in 2009, which I access to information on their sexual and reproductive have seen on shelves across the world in countries that I health and rights, including information on HIV prevention. have had the privilege of visiting as chair of the all-party Those social barriers to accessing HIV services such as group. A huge amount of progress has been made in the testing, counselling and prevention services, alongside past five years, and a great deal has changed, so I felt the freedom to control life choices, must be addressed as that it was time to look at these issues again. As I said at part of a holistic approach. I joined the all-party group the start of my remarks, despite that progress, so much on HIV and AIDS nearly five years ago, because it is a more can be done. We need to ensure that that happens considerable issue in my constituency. It is still a big by working together to tackle the barriers that are issue, but there is a realisation that we need to continue outlined in the report. to do all we can around the world to end the HIV epidemic. I welcome the report. 3.3 pm Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): I want briefly to reinforce four of the many excellent points 3.8 pm that the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I Nash) has made. First, I want to talk about access to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and medicine. Fifteen years ago, 70% of people living with Shotts (Pamela Nash) not only for calling the debate, HIV were located in low-income countries. Estimates but for her leadership of the all-party group on HIV now show that, by 2020, about 70% of people living and AIDS since she took over as chair after the tragic with HIV will be located in middle-income countries. loss of our parliamentary colleague David Cairns, who That dramatic shift means that a fresh approach is passed away suddenly. required to the AIDS response. Recently, Governments and multilateral donors have I have been a member of the all-party group since I withdrawn funding from middle-income countries, at came into Parliament almost 18 years ago. The leadership the very moment when they are faced with increasing of my hon. Friend and the previous leadership of David treatment costs. Outdated classifications of countries Cairns have backed up a robust group of individuals based on simplistic gross national income calculations who have worked long and hard in Parliament on the need to be replaced with evidence-based approaches to problem of HIV and AIDS. I have not visited some of ensure that the response to HIV/AIDS, and to other the many places that my hon. Friend has visited, but a diseases such as tuberculosis, malaria and hepatitis C, is few years ago I visited Ukraine courtesy of UNICEF as effective as possible. The focus should be not on UK. I was asked to go there because I am also joint low-income countries versus middle-income countries, chair of the all-party group on street children. but on ensuring that the most vulnerable and marginalised UNICEF UK looked at what was happening in Ukraine. in society receive the services that they require. Children sleeping rough on the streets were taking Secondly, we need to keep going. It is now possible to drugs intravenously, with many then finding that they end the HIV epidemic as a public health threat, but at had become HIV-positive. That brings us back to the the very moment when that has become possible, HIV point about stigma and discrimination. Many of those has fallen off the political radar as a matter that requires young people were living in fear, because if they presented urgent attention. There is an ever-decreasing window of for a medical, and it was discovered they were carrying opportunity to bring HIV under control, and that can the infection, they would be reported to the authorities—the be achieved only with a renewed political commitment. police. They were in a real dilemma: they understood Without such a commitment, we face losing momentum something was medically wrong, but should they go for and seeing a reversal of the progress that we have made. the medical, given the consequences? We must not let that happen. I and the UNICEF UK person who went with Thirdly, I want to mention HIV transmission. Access me to Ukraine, along with a couple of people to treatment is a significant problem that we must solve, working on behalf of UNICEF in Ukraine, visited the and we must consider what more we can do to prevent British ambassador, and I have to say that I was bitterly 105WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 106WH income Countries income Countries disappointed. I came away from the meeting thinking, they have done and the way they have assisted in “I sincerely hope that that individual has arrived here maintaining such a robust group. I hope it will continue only in the last couple of days,” because he had no after the election on 7 May. perception of the problems on the ground or of what Again, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for people were experiencing. I also met one or two Ukraine Airdrie and Shotts, as the chair, for pulling the report Government officials, and it was anything but heartening together and for securing the debate. to realise that what was happening was not an issue for them. 3.17 pm At that time, Ukraine was heavily dependent on Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure global funding and support. Less than 12 months after to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I start I visited, that funding and support were taken away. where my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Just because certain countries fall into the middle-income Galloway (Mr Brown) ended, by congratulating my category, that does not mean they are handling some of hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela these problems better. In my view—it is only my view, Nash) on securing this important debate. I also recognise although one or two people did share it with me—Ukraine her unflinching commitment and her leadership on this was on the verge of being a basket case in terms of important issue, and the tremendous work she and the dealing with HIV/AIDS, because there was no real all-party group have done on the “Access Denied” support for people. That goes back to the issue of report. We can tell from her contribution that she has a stigma and discrimination. genuine passion and commitment on the issue, which she has championed in Parliament for the past five The all-party group’s report mentions paediatric years, and which I hope she will be championing here treatment, which is lagging behind adult treatment in for many years to come. terms of access and research. Our report indicates that the market for paediatric treatments is, regrettably, a The previous Government and this Government have low-profit market, which reduces the incentive for research done constructive work on this important issue, and we and development by private companies. There is a real require a reaffirmation of that commitment on HIV/AIDS lack of adequate treatment regimens for children, which as we move forward, but I start by mentioning a few often leads to adult treatments simply being broken up things from the report that shocked me. Two thirds of and given to children. It must be recognised that children adults with HIV do not have access to treatment or are are simply not being given the proper treatment and not on treatment. Three quarters of children with HIV dosage on many occasions. Treatment regimens need to do not have access to treatment—that is completely be tailored to individuals because children are not all unacceptable in the modern day, and something must the same weight or same height. We need to ensure that be done about it. Children and adults in low and the correct dosage is given if we are truly looking for middle-income countries have seen support from the these young children to get proper treatment. If incorrect international community fall and prices from dosages or unsuitable adult treatments are administered, pharmaceutical companies rise, which is a stain on the children’s treatment is unlikely to be as effective, which international community. By 2030, 55 million people could lead to resistance and the need to switch to are expected to need HIV treatment. Last year, 1.5 million second or even third-line treatments. people died of HIV when that disease can be managed, although we do not have a cure. Again, that figure is a Any of us, with any condition, would want to know stain on the international community. that whatever we were prescribed would meet our needs My hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts as individuals. Of all the conditions that exist in the has said two things that struck me—I read one this world, HIV/AIDS needs proper treatment. As a starting morning, and she said the other today. First, she said point, we need to encourage pharmaceutical companies that people need to come before profits, which is a to deliver more suitable dosages for children, because powerful phrase. Treatments are available to help to this problem has existed for far too long—indeed, it manage conditions, but people do not receive them has existed since I joined the all-party group almost because they are too expensive, there is no health care 18 years ago. system or stigma is attached to HIV/AIDS. That is completely unacceptable. We must remember that behind There is also a gap in early infant diagnostics, and the statistics are real people, who have the basic human there are insufficient opportunities for testing children. rights that we all share. They have the right to life, That results in children living with HIV not being health, and dignity, and to contribute positively to their identified and given treatment, or in those whose treatment family and society. is failing not having their problems addressed. It is easy to focus on doom and gloom, and obviously I do not want to say much more, because my hon. there is much that is negative, but there are also things Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts and the hon. to welcome. According to data, last year, for the first Member for Brighton, Kemptown have covered a significant time, more people gained access to HIV drugs than amount of the report. However, I want to put on record were infected with the virus; the ONE campaign has that, in taking evidence for the inquiry, we were assisted called that the tipping point. In 2013, the most recent by colleagues from the other place, as my hon. Friend year for which data are available, 2.3 million people said. Their support and assistance are invaluable. The gained access to HIV treatment programmes, compared oldest soldiers in the all-party group are Lord Fowler, with 2.1 million people with new infections. That is a who has done so much in the Palace of Westminster welcome statistic, but we cannot be complacent. over all these years, and Baroness Sue Masham, whom I We do not want such progress to be reversed. The met when I first joined the group. They are absolute ONE campaign’s recent report noted that the US, France stalwarts, and it is fitting that we recognise the work and the UK in particular have carried what it calls an 107WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 108WH income Countries income Countries [Anas Sarwar] Although the UK has come in for praise from the ONE campaign, as have the US and France, there is still “unsustainable” share of the burden in the international a hell of a lot of work to do. Global funding for community. It is incumbent on the Government and anti-HIV programmes reached an all-time high of their international partners to press donor countries, $19.1 billion last year, but that is still an estimated and indeed those developing countries able to provide $3 billion a year short of the annual $22 billion to support to those who need it, to do more. I look $24 billion that the UN says we need to spend. forward to hearing more details about that from the By 2020, low-income countries will need $9.7 billion, Minister. lower-middle-income countries $8.7 billion, and upper- The November 2014 UNAIDS report talked of a middle-income countries $17.2 billion for the fight to fast-track approach to end the AIDS epidemic by 2030, bring the epidemic to an end. However, the report says with a target to be reached by 2020, called 90-90-90. that if the money is forthcoming and enough effort is The target is that 90% of people living with HIV should made to reach the 2020 targets, the need for more funds know their status, 90% of those who know it should will decline. That is an interesting point: the fund could have access to treatment and 90% of those being treated decline if we matched the UNAIDS aspiration. By should have suppressed viral load. That is a difficult but 2030, the funding needed globally could drop from positive target, achievable if there is the will in the $35.6 billion in 2020 to $32.8 billion. If we make an international community. It has been said that turning initial big investment—not taking any wasted route, in the target up to 95-95-95 would be tantamount to terms of value for money, but investing in genuine care ending the epidemic. and treatment to help to save lives—the long-term A further report, “Fast track: Ending the AIDS positive effect will be not only those lives saved and a epidemic by 2030”, also said that nearly 28 million new reduction in the proliferation of the condition, but infections and 21 million AIDS-related deaths could be money saved that can be used to fund other areas of averted by 2030 if the target were met. However, it also work. warned that “business as usual” could mean missing the The hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon opportunity to end the epidemic for a long time to Kirby) and my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and come. UNAIDS estimates that, by June 2014, 13.6 million Shotts noted the important point made in the report HIV-positive people around the world had access to about middle-income countries. There are many issues antiretroviral therapy, but an estimated 35 million need related to extreme poverty besides HIV and AIDS, it. It will be interesting to hear the Minister’s response including access to education and other health care, to the UNAIDS 90-90-90 target, what partnership work such as drugs and treatment for TB and malaria. We the Department for International Development is doing still have a lot of work to do in middle-income countries: with it towards that aspiration, and what global leadership 50% of people in extreme poverty live in those countries, we are showing to get our bilateral partners and multilateral so the international community, and particularly the funding agencies to reflect those priorities. UK, cannot afford to ignore or pass by their challenges. It is important to talk about funding and to recognise We must still engage with them, and consider need, as the responsibility of the UK and the global community my hon. Friend said, rather than classification. to support HIV and AIDS treatment. In 2012, the UK Government contributed 10.7% of all bilateral aid for We need to support people as those countries graduate HIV. That statistic is welcome, and so is the fact that from the low-income to the middle-income group, rather between 2008 and 2013 DFID’s overall spend, including than thinking that that means our job is done. Quite the bilateral and multilateral funding, averaged £300 million opposite: sometimes in those cases, even more support a year. At the time of the recent global health fund is needed, particularly when there is a lack of governance, replenishment, a commitment was given to provide although some people might think that the graduation £1 billion for 2014-16, which means that the annual to middle-income status means Government officials contribution will increase significantly to £500 million. can think less about their obligations to the poorest I am sure the Minister will confirm those figures. citizens. I wonder, following the UNAIDS report, whether I have in mind two examples raised by my hon. that funding and support have been reflected on. We Friend and in the “Access Denied” report, which have have heard today, in the context of DFID funding, been the subject of much discussion and negotiation. about budget spending that has been committed and South Africa and India, with their continuing struggles, unallocated funding. Might there be scope to look still need our support—particularly technical assistance again at the funding and support we give to the global and help with strengthening health care systems. Currently, health fund, particularly given our withdrawal of funding 58% of people who are HIV positive live in middle-income for the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, which my countries. By 2020, the proportion is expected to rise to hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts pointed 70%. We cannot ignore that 70%; we need to engage out? I welcome the fact that we spend £300 million and work with them. annually, and the £500 million commitment for 2014-16, There are a couple of other issues. First, 52% of but cutting by up to 80% our support to IAVI—the people suffering from HIV and AIDS in low and middle- fund trying to find a cure and a vaccine—is unacceptable. income countries are women. One young woman contracts I look forward to hearing the Minister’s explanation HIV every minute. The report also found that in sub- for that cut. We should not give up on the dream and Saharan Africa the proportion of young women aged hope of finding a cure and a vaccine for HIV and 15 to 24 living with HIV is twice that of young men. AIDS. I would like to think that we could find those There are also cultural issues. Given that carers and things in my lifetime and bring an end to a global people with caring responsibilities when loved ones are injustice. unwell are often women and girls, we have a responsibility 109WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 110WH income Countries income Countries to support people with conditions and to support people in South Africa people are being charged exponentially who support those with conditions. Perhaps the Minister even for first-line treatment. Granting licences for second will respond to that, too. and third-line drug combinations must be implemented My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway much more efficiently than in previous decades. We rightly mentioned child treatment and transmission. must reduce the price of front-line drugs to a much When I read some of the stats in preparation for today’s more manageable level. That is the responsibility of the debate, the stat that got me most was that, across the UK Government, working in partnership with the world, there are 3.2 million children with HIV and that international community and other key development 20,000 children a month are still being infected. Up to agencies, whether in country or through multilaterals. It half of all new paediatric HIV infections occur during is also for the drug companies to ensure that second and breastfeeding, which is a heartbreaking tale: a mother third-line drugs are available and affordable for all, trying to do her very best to give her child the best irrespective of the income or the affluence of a person possible start in life has, through breastfeeding, transmitted or a country. I emphasise the 80% cut to IAVI. HIV and AIDS to that child. We can all get wrapped up in one fundamental issue, In many cases, perhaps, the mother had to choose and I say that particularly in the climate of the discussions whether to breastfeed her child, knowing that the child on sustainable development goals, which are ongoing would suffer because of her condition. That is heartbreaking and will continue—hopefully, they will conclude later indeed. More work needs to be done to ensure that we this year. We see a lack of strong universal health care are giving adequate treatment to women and girls to systems in developing countries. We see clinics popping prevent the transmission of the disease to children in up for tuberculosis, malaria and HIV and AIDS, but the first place. If children contract the condition, they what we need is holistic care so that people, whatever should get the support, medicine and treatment they conditions they turn up with, receive adequate support need. and the care they need. I have two further points in relation to women and There is no better example than our own national girls. First, education is crucial. There should be education health service. We have a system that is based on people’s for all, and we should ensure that people know about need, not their ability to pay. If we have that great the risks of HIV and AIDS. Secondly, we must address system in the UK, it is incumbent on us to work with violence against women and girls. The Minister and I the international community to help to promote such a have talked about the important issue of female genital system of universal health coverage globally. That is mutilation and violence against women and girls more why we have already said that we would set up a generally, particularly in conflict. We have talked about universal health coverage institute within the Department putting women and girls at the heart of development, for International Development to provide technical and putting women and girls at the heart of support for assistance using the expertise of the Department, of the HIV and AIDS is also crucial and must be considered people who work with and for the Department, and of much more carefully. the NHS. Another issue raised in “Access Denied” that has The institute would bring together the expertise of perhaps been mentioned less in the debate is the support people who put together tax systems to help to create given to people who inject drugs. If we are to follow the and build models in developing countries so that those “no one left behind” principle, we must ensure that we countries may have universal health care systems that give adequate support to people who inject drugs, which have the support they need, but are sustainable and able means access to clean syringes, opioid substitute treatment to raise their own funds. There is no greater example and naloxone to prevent overdose and the spread of than the Ebola crisis. In Nigeria, where money has been infections. spent on the health care system, Ebola was brought reasonably under control, which helped to save lives, We have two good cases where treatment has helped and in Sierra Leone, which did not have such a system, to make a difference. Tanzania and Kenya have the Ebola crisis worsened and up to 10,000 people lost demonstrated good practice on those issues, but we their lives. I encourage the Minister to move forward must scale that up and ensure that we give them and with universal health care systems and access to health other people in the region the same adequate support for all. and treatment. UNAIDS estimates that $2.3 billion is needed annually to fund preventive measures for those Today, let us resolve to do as my hon. Friend the who inject drugs, but all global donors combined spend Member for Airdrie and Shotts and the wider all-party only $160 million—that is $160 million when we need group on HIV and AIDS have done and put this $2.3 billion every single year. How can we ensure that important issue at the forefront by talking about it, those issues are more fully considered? discussing it and debating it. We must put the solutions at the forefront, too, so that in my lifetime, and in the We have heard colleagues talk about the obstacles Minister’s lifetime, we can bring HIV and AIDS to faced in licensing and about companies putting profits an end. before people. I welcome the progress that has been made on relaxing intellectual property rights to produce low-cost generic drugs for first-line treatment. I welcome 3.38 pm the coalition of five big pharmaceutical companies that The Minister of State, Department for International is granting licences for generic production to the UN-backed Development (Mr Desmond Swayne): It is always an medicines patent pool, but more can and must be done. enormous pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Second-line drug combinations are far more expensive Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), particularly when he than the basic cocktail, which costs no more than makes such a helpful and thoughtful contribution. I $100 per person per year, although we have heard that congratulate the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts 111WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 112WH income Countries income Countries [Mr Desmond Swayne] effectively to shape the market and to bring about £1 billion of savings to the purchasing countries, which (Pamela Nash) not only on securing this debate and on translates to 2.5 million more people being treated and introducing it so well but on the enormous impact that getting drugs, so it is an important part of the agenda. her all-party group has achieved with its two publications. The hon. Members for Dumfries and Galloway and It is extraordinary for an all-party group to be able to for Airdrie and Shotts spoke about children. I recognise inform the public and the legislature in that way. I that there is a gap in the market for paediatric care. The commend the other Members who have contributed: United Kingdom and France are the major funders of the hon. Members for Paisley and Renfrewshire North UNITAID, to which we made a 20-year commitment. (Jim Sheridan) and for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) As part of that agreement, we have committed an and my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown average of ¤60 million per year. UNITAID provided (Simon Kirby). I owe my hon. Friend a particular debt 400,000 children with fixed-dose combinations last year, because he drew my attention to this subject and engaged and was instrumental in reducing the price of those and interested me in it. He has worked very hard on doses from $252 per child in 2006 to $130 in 2011. HIV and AIDS in his constituency, where he rightly Those actions contributed to the 52% reduction in child says that they have been a significant issue. I pay tribute infections since 2001. That reduction has been accelerating to him. in recent years. I have been asked a large number of questions, so I will race through putting the Government’s position on UNITAID also funds the medicines patent pool, the record, and then I will deal with the questions as which has been performing well. I know that the hon. expeditiously as I can. The hon. Member for Airdrie Member for Airdrie and Shotts has an interest in it and Shotts said that there are 35 million HIV-positive because she raised it with my noble Friend Baroness sufferers, but I think that one of the most worrying Northover. That model was designed specifically for statistics is that 19 million of them do not know that AIDS, but it is reasonable to ask whether it can be they have the disease. We have to draw attention to that. expanded and used to deal with other diseases. It is an Only 34% of those who are eligible for treatment under effective way of operating and it has been a success, so I the World Health Organisation’s 2013 treatment guidelines hope it is going to be part of the agenda in future. have access to antiretroviral treatment. We remain the second biggest donor in the world. We Pamela Nash: I am extremely grateful to the Minister set out our approach in the document “Towards zero for making that point, which will be good news not only infections” in 2011, and we updated it in “Towards zero for the all-party group but for the organisations that infections: two years on” at the end of 2013. In those support us. I want to make one small point, which I documents, we clearly laid out a pathway for withdrawing have raised informally with the Department. The minutes from bilateral funding and transferring to a multilateral of the UNITAID board meeting in December state that approach to this problem. Principally, we are going to there was a reduced contribution from the UK Government. work through the Global Fund, which represents about Can the Minister clarify that or seek advice from his one fifth of the entire world’s contribution. colleagues? We have changed the way we operate, but we have not reduced it at all. I looked at the figures extensively this Mr Swayne: The commitment of an average of morning. From 2006-07 to 2009-10, we spent £849 million ¤60 million per year for 20 years has been and will be on HIV/AIDS, and from 2010-11 to 2013-14 we spent met, but it is an average. There was a reduction, and my £1,070 million. The highest years for expenditure were understanding is that it was made good with a ¤40 million last year and one a couple of years before that. Therefore, contribution. The contributions are being met and we quite properly, we are maintaining the pressure on this are fulfilling the requirements. important issue. We are not slacking or suffering from HIV treatment is linked to broader issues of health donor fatigue. The measure of that—the hon. Members development, the strengthening of health systems, gender for Glasgow Central and for Airdrie and Shotts referred equality, and stigma and discrimination. All those things to this—is our commitment of £1 billion to the Global have to be addressed. We have to have a rights-based Fund from 2014 to 2016, subject to a 10% burden share. prevention and treatment regime. That remains a key We see ourselves as the voice of the affected populations. policy objective in tracking how our contributions and I will return to that point, because a number of hon. investments deal with those issues. We need to be much Members have expressed concern about it. We are driving better informed, and we must understand how to tackle forward improvement and integrating HIV treatment stigma. Only when that happens will more people be with health systems in the countries where people are able to access preventive programmes, get tested, and affected. The hon. Member for Glasgow Central drew initiate and adhere to treatments. attention to that important agenda. We are driving The product development partnerships model has forward the centrality of women and girls. He was been very successful in bringing forward new drugs to entirely right when he said that, every hour, 50 young the market. It has brought forward 43 new drugs in the women between the ages of 15 and 24 are affected. That past 10 years, and there are 350 under development. is twice the infection rate of young men, and it represents The Department for International Development is a 22% of new infections. In sub-Saharan Africa, 57% of strong supporter of PDPs; indeed, we were the first sufferers are women. Government donor to them. I congratulate the Labour We want to use market shaping to ensure that drugs party on its initiative in 2008 and on driving forward are available at affordable prices, so we have committed that innovative agenda. It was an important contribution. £35 million between 2012 and 2015 to the Clinton We remain a globally significant player in that field, Health Access Initiative. That money has been used having committed £154.2 million between 2013 and 2018. 113WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 114WH income Countries income Countries I was asked any number of questions. Let me start gap in respect of the Robert Carr network. We have to with those about vaccines and the International AIDS work with our donor partners to try to see how that gap Vaccine Initiative. There has been no cut. We fulfilled can be filled. the contract that we had with IAVI. All the money that I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Airdrie and we had committed was paid. We have a new contract Shotts that viral load testing is the top end. It is exactly now for £5 million, for which it competed, for a slightly what we should be pursuing. I am glad that the price different programme. has fallen significantly as a consequence of the market Let us be clear about what has happened. It is quite shaping; it is down to a cap of $9.40, which is down right that we have withdrawn from something that we some 40% in low-income and middle-income countries. were previously involved in, just as any organisation The problem is, as she rightly pointed out, that that continually reviews its operations and does what it does requires a developed network of laboratory testing. best. I understand that some six vaccines went for field Again, I entirely share her view that we have to continue trials and we were funding that process. The results were investing in alternative point-of-care technology, and in disappointing, so it was back to the laboratory. We do research and development in that area. I know that not consider laboratory work as part of our comparative there have been more than 924,000 CD4 tests at point of advantage. There are organisations in the world that are care, but she is right that load testing is a much better much better at dealing with that sort of scientific funding and much more valuable tool. The way the Global and do that work. Frankly, I believe that our funds are Fund works is that it asks countries that are capable of better expended elsewhere, where we have a comparative supporting the network with laboratories for viral load advantage. testing to apply for that funding, and it asks other Remember that we have not made a saving; we are countries that are not able to support that to apply, spending more than we were spending before. We are certainly for the moment, for funding to deal with CD4 spending it differently and I believe that we are spending and whatever else may be brought forward. The work of it effectively, although we are not funding IAVI to the UNITAID and the Clinton health foundation has been extent that we were in the past. That is a perfectly instrumental in reducing the price of viral load testing, reasonable position to have taken, given the change in which was one of the principal problems with it. the situation. I come on to the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and the impact of any trade negotiations. I Anas Sarwar: The Minister mentions the six vaccines was asked whether we have formal input into the process. that went to field trials and the “disappointing” results. The reality is that, as a consequence of decisions taken He does realise that we only need success once, but we in 1975—decisions that might be reviewed if the election need to fund that programme to be able to get that one result turns out the way I want it to—trade policy is a success. European Commission competency. Within the UK Government, the Department for Business, Innovation Mr Swayne: Absolutely, but the difference is this. and Skills is the lead Department in relation to that, but Funding field trials is one thing but going back to the DFID successfully ensures that issues such as access to laboratory and working there is a different field of medicines and intellectual property rights lead to joint endeavour, one where we have no comparative advantage. discussions between our Departments. It is physically in [Interruption.] I think we will just have to agree to BIS but it is actually staffed by DFID officials. Therefore, disagree about this one, but there has absolutely been we do that. no cut in our funding of IAVI.We fulfilled our contracts On the issue itself, my own view is that it is down to and entered into a new one—a quite different one—with the negotiations at the time, on a case-by-case basis. IAVI. When we make a trading agreement, we have to ensure Now we come to the big question of the middle-income that we are absolutely certain that we are not compromising countries. I accept entirely that, when a country becomes ourselves on intellectual property and that we are not a middle-income country, it hits a double whammy: going to restrict access to drugs as a consequence of the one, the funding is withdrawn; and, two, all the prices decisions we make. That is just down to being vigilant go up. But hey—they are middle-income countries, and when we come to make these arrangements. we are trying to encourage people to invest properly and I was specifically asked about research and development. to step up, as they are richer countries, and fund their That agenda has been driven forward largely by civil health systems properly and have properly integrated society, rather than by nation states and Governments. health systems. That is an important part of the deal. Nevertheless, it is important. Frankly, it is unlikely that I accept entirely that that is a bit like falling off a cliff. there will be a legally binding instrument for health Perhaps we should have some system akin to, say, research and co-ordination. The Government’s view is universal credit, where there is a taper, as countries that any agreement needs to be built on existing mechanisms, move from low-income status to middle-income status. such as that proposed by the expert working group. I accept that there is an argument—a case to be made The background to the issue is that for the past here. I am open to that discussion. It is something that 10 years the World Health Organisation has convened a we would have to agree with our international partners; number of working groups to discuss and suggest solutions I do not think we would have leave to change the system to the issues that the hon. Lady has raised, namely, ourselves. Hon. Members have drawn attention to a funding flows, innovative funding mechanisms and very clear problem. The way we get around it at the co-ordination of health research. The latest of these moment is through the funding of the Robert Carr groups—the consultative working group—suggested that network, to which we have committed £4 million until we should establish a WHO global R and D observatory the end of this month, and then we will have to replenish and a pooled fund for product R and D, together with a it. That is underfunded; there is a £13 million funding co-ordinating mechanism to support the fund. 115WH HIV Treatment: Low and Middle- 11 MARCH 2015 116WH income Countries [Mr Swayne] Co-operative Schools

The World Health Assembly is due to discuss that 4pm matter later this year. My concern is this: will countries wish to put more into this pool than they are putting in Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): In 2007, at the moment to contributions to R and D, particularly the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), now when the pool will be controlled by a mechanism other the Prime Minister, said the Conservatives would shortly than the countries themselves? My estimate is that most publish their policy proposals for a supply-side revolution countries would want to put research funding into a in Britain’s schools system—a long-term response to direct contribution that they control and to know where various challenges and what he saw as educational it is going. I will not go any further than that, because I failure. He said that he wanted to highlight one specific was asked about 90-90-90 and I have one minute left to aspect of that revolution: the opportunities that his respond. It is a very interesting thing. It is far too soon reforms would create for a new generation of co-operative to tell. My concern is that it adds a very substantial schools. What better way to give parents direct involvement burden to the funding that already exists, and the emphasis in their school than to give them ownership—not just as must be on the poorest and the sickest first. I would stakeholders, but as shareholders, and as shareholders want to see a little more about how the UNITAID not in a profit-making company, but in a co-operative proposals are brought forward before committing myself built around the needs of local children? irrevocably to the 90-90-90 strategy. The co-operative model reflects an important vision of social progress that Conservatives believe in: the role of strong independent institutions, run by and for local people. The right hon. Gentleman said that he wanted the Conservative party to take the lead in applying the co-operative ideal to the challenges of the 21st century, and announced the establishment of the Conservative Co-operative Movement. Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am absolutely tickled to join the hon. Lady in the debate. She has reminded me what a strong supporter I am of the Prime Minister and how delighted I would be if he completely fulfilled that vision.

Meg Munn: I welcome the hon. Gentleman—a strong supporter of co-operative schools who has advocated for them. Let us find out a little more about what actually happened as a result of what the Prime Minister said. When the coalition Government came to office, there were 87 co-operative schools in England. Today, there are 834. The majority of those are foundation trust schools established under the Education and Inspections Act 2006, passed by the previous Labour Administration. One might expect the Government to trumpet the growth of those co-operative schools. Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth. What is heralded instead is a hoped-for expansion of free schools: 500 in the next Parliament. That is where effort and money are targeted— not on the parent-owned co-operative free schools, despite co-operative trust schools excelling with parent involvement. Clearly, the Prime Minister’s words have been forgotten by the Department for Education—and by him. Some might say, “But there are 834 co-operative schools, so the commitment is there.” However, the remarkable advance of co-operative schools has happened despite, not because of, Government support. In debates in the past two years, Ministers have said they have not prevented growth and that they are therefore supporting co-operative schools. However, that is not the same thing at all. I am beginning to think that there is an ideological block on the issue somewhere in the Department. I have been trying to engage the Department for some time in removing a fundamental barrier to the expansion of co-operative schools. I proposed two legislative changes: enabling schools to register as industrial and provident societies and amending the 2006 Act to enable nursery schools to be established as school trusts. 117WH Co-operative Schools11 MARCH 2015 Co-operative Schools 118WH

Let me provide a brief history. In 2013, I introduced a and develop is created. Stakeholders in the local community ten-minute rule Bill. The two proposals were adopted as have a say in the way the school is run. The values of Labour party amendments to the Deregulation Bill in equality and equity ensure that the environment is free Committee in the Commons in February last year. The from bias and that everyone can be the best they can be. Labour team withdrew their amendments when the Government indicated that they were willing to work Mr Sheerman: When my hon. Friend and I were with the Co-operative party to put Government changes together on the Bill Committee—the Minister was there, in the Bill. With the Co-operative party and co-operative too—we picked up on the fact that the quality of schools experts, I worked with the Department to try to teaching matters in every school. Has she seen the high make that happen. retention rates of staff and the contentment of teachers The then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member and staff working in co-operative schools? That trickles for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), was supportive, but down to the students. officials indicated that the Department lacked the expertise and resource to take the issue forward. Lord Nash, a Meg Munn: Of course, my hon. Friend is right: these Minister in the Department, then expressed limited are key issues. He is a great advocate of that approach. support for co-operative schools and changes to legislation. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) spoke Following the reshuffle, the Department indicated that extraordinarily eloquently about the schools in his area it would not be introducing legislative change. and he is, believe it or not, a Conservative, so there is still some support. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. Friend is, like me, a Co-operative Member of Mr Sheerman: The hon. Gentleman is not a run-of- Parliament. Perhaps this is not a question of detail or the-mill Conservative. the Department blocking. Perhaps it is just that the political leadership of this Government is put off by Steve Baker: Listening to the hon. Lady describe those schools, which are in favour of equality, equity, those schools, I was reminded of the success we are solidarity, openness, honesty, social responsibility and seeing in Cressex school in Wycombe. The hon. Member caring for others. for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), whom I work with occasionally, is a bit of a rascal, because Conservatives Meg Munn: I would like to know what is putting the do support many of the values he described. The Government off, because I spoke to the new Secretary disagreement is probably on the margins. I say to the of State for Education and she indicated that she was Government that it is time that we woke up to this willing to consider the issue. message. The Department said that it would work with Meg Munn: I agree. I am not for one minute suggesting co-operative schools to produce data on performance that Conservatives do not support those values. In fact, and look at a power to innovate to try to resolve the the Cabinet published a document called “Making it issue preventing nursery schools from becoming mutual: the ownership revolution that Britain needs”, co-operatives. The power to innovate would suspend which stated: the relevant legislation for three years to test whether “The conditions are right for a resurgence of co-operative nursery schools wished to join co-operative trusts. However, mutual and reciprocal activity.” since that offer was made the Department has not, despite repeated inquiries, responded to requests for an That has been said not just by people in the Labour and update on progress. On Second Reading and on Report Co-operative movement, but by Conservatives, so my in the Lords, the amendments were tabled again and puzzlement at why we are not moving forward grows ably moved by Baroness Thornton for Labour, but were ever more. not supported by the Government. Can anyone now believe that there is any Government commitment to Steve Baker: I hope the hon. Lady agrees that what is co-operatives in the public sector? needed is another term of Conservative government so that we can put all those things fully into practice. Why does this matter? Leaving in place barriers to the growth of co-operative schools is simply an opportunity Meg Munn: We are getting into the realms of fantasy wasted. It holds back the possibility of lasting improvement now, are we not? The hon. Gentleman can hardly expect in educational standards, which would benefit children’s me to agree to that. What I am saying is, regardless of education and local communities. our party political affiliations and regardless of where Many schools want to adopt the co-operative model. we come from, why can we not get together around the They have a desire to develop a self-improving school issue of co-operative schools? Why have those schools system, where a number of schools can work together become so contentious when there is support for them, and inculcate those co-operative values mentioned by and not just from the hon. Gentleman? In a previous my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield debate, we also heard support for them from other (Mr Sheerman): self-help, self-responsibility, democracy, Conservative Members. The Minister attended that debate. equality, equity and solidarity. We know that some Why can we not get together around something that schools, working together in a group, are achieving is good for our children? Let us do what the electorate outstanding results. so often ask us to do and put party politics aside and The Schools Co-operative Society believes that by say, “This is how we should move forward.” Whether encouraging everyone within an organisation to work the coalition remains in place after the election, or together they gain mutual benefits. Performance improves whether we have a Labour Government or a coalition and pupils are engaged in the life of the school. The of another type, the Department will still be there, so let best possible environment for young people to learn us get the officials working on this now. 119WH Co-operative Schools11 MARCH 2015 Co-operative Schools 120WH

[Meg Munn] House. I congratulate her on all the effort she has put into co-operative schools and so much else in Parliament Getting back to my specific points on why we should over the years. move forward, encouragement is given in co-operative schools to supporting each other and the local Meg Munn: How could I object to that intervention? community—to give back to others the benefits that Before I finish, on the issue of co-operation as opposed have been had and to spread the positive learning to competition, I quote Franklin D. Roosevelt: experience. There is evidence that young people brought “Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain up in that environment continue to contribute positively point and no further, but co-operation, which is the thing we must to their communities long after they have left school. strive for today, begins where competition leaves off”. Children benefit from a positive start in life. That was The Department’s vision is for a highly educated society recognised when the academies programme was extended in which opportunity is equal for children no matter to primary schools. Children need the best foundation their background. That is a vision I believe we all share. at primary level to realise their potential at secondary I thank my colleagues, my hon. Friend the Member for level, but we have to go further and ensure that we also Huddersfield and the hon. Member for Wycombe, for get it right at nursery level. intervening and showing that there is cross-party support Many co-operative school trusts are based on strong for co-operative schools. I thank them for all their work geographical areas. They aim to raise achievement by to support co-operation and co-operative schools. supporting young people through the education system I want us to take an important step in helping to from nursery age to school leaving age. We have to make that vision a reality. Let us put aside ideology and recognise that children do not differentiate between dogma, allow real choice in education and allow being looked after, being cared for and learning. Learning co-operative school trusts to flourish by removing the begins as soon as a child is born, so we need our nursery barriers that make achieving that vision difficult. schools to have a co-operative approach that involves parents, and then the children can do so well. Would 4.15 pm they not do even better if they were part of that co-operative ideal from the start? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education While there have been failures with co-operative (Mr Edward Timpson): It is a pleasure to serve under schools—it would be wrong to paint a rosy picture your chairmanship, Mrs Main. In the usual way, I everywhere—there have also been failures in the academy congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley programme. Co-operative schools have seen remarkable (Meg Munn) on securing another important debate on success. More than 80 have been judged by Ofsted as co-operative schools. I well remember the debate we outstanding. That was achieved with no support from had in October 2013, which I have taken the time to Government, financial or otherwise, which is in stark re-read. Other Members who are present today also contrast to the many thousands and millions spent on spoke at that debate. What struck me was that through the academies and free schools programmes. Co-operative it shone a real shared purpose on the need to raise schools do not want preferential treatment; they just standards right across the education system. There was want a fair and level playing field and the same engagement also a recognition that co-operatives are a part of the and support as free schools. solution. I will remind Members of some my comments, which support my contention that the Government Action is being blocked by the Department. Why? support the work that many co-operative schools across What will the Minister do to ensure progress on the the country are doing. I said: issue and, in particular, to ensure that actions agreed with the Department are implemented? I would also “We should, and do, cherish the values of co-operative trust like him to put on the record the assistance the Department schools”. will give to fulfil his Government’s pledge to support I also expressed the hope that I had given—I hope I will co-operatives. That pledge has been given by the Prime do so again today— Minister and two Secretaries of State. An incoming “a forceful indication that this Government hugely value the Government must support the growth of co-operative co-operative movement’s work in our schools.”—[Official Report, schools. 23 October 2013; Vol. 569, c. 127WH, 132WH.] We need cross-party support so that swift progress I want to make it clear that those values, as my hon. can easily be made. Just two steps would go a long way. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) said in First, the co-operative model as defined in the Co-operative his intervention, are shared by all parties, which is and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014 should be demonstrated by the fact that there has been no attempt made available to foundation trusts. Secondly, nursery to prevent in an ideological way the growth of co-operative schools should be enabled to form or join foundation schools. In fact, they have seen their biggest growth in trusts by removing the restriction in the 2006 Act. The quite some time. We have more than 700 of them, and remarkable progress of co-operative schools proves that we will be close to 1,000 by the end of next year. That is there is an instinct among many school leaders for a huge increase for the co-operative movement in education. co-operation as a means to drive up standards, rather The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) than a dogmatic view that only competition can achieve slightly stole my thunder in recognising that, in her time improvement. as an MP, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley has, there is no doubt, been a huge force for good in ensuring Mr Sheerman: This may be the last Westminster Hall that children of all backgrounds, but particularly the debate where my hon. Friend and I are together. It is so most disadvantaged, have their voices heard. It is a appropriate that she is talking about co-operative schools great loss to us all that she has decided to go on to and she has had such a distinguished career in the bigger and better things in her future career. The service 121WH Co-operative Schools11 MARCH 2015 Co-operative Schools 122WH she has given and her commitment to the area is noted good has decreased from 33% to 19%. As part of that and should be applauded. In doing that, I hope that she process, the values of co-operative trust schools are recognises that we share the same endeavour. I reassure ones that the Government share. They are good values. her and other Members that the Government continue They were given a strong airing in our previous debate, to support wholeheartedly the role that school collaboration and I would reiterate them all today, particularly the and partnerships play in achieving our goal of a high- importance of shared responsibility for problems and performing, self-improving education system, which includes designing solutions and of the people involved in a the role of co-operatives. child’s learning having a real stake in that learning. I am pleased to note the role of the co-operative Mr Sheerman: The Minister is the acceptable face of movement as a sponsor of schools that require extra the Conservative party, as is the hon. Member for support and the increasing number of co-operative Wycombe (Steve Baker), but they are atypical. The fact schools that are choosing academy status, thereby becoming of the matter is that we need a real commitment to co-operative academies. Collaboration is a defining feature change the law. That is what we want. We do not want of the academies programme as well. The formal to muck around. We have got 837 schools. We want a partnership arrangements for academies and maintained change in the law, for a faster expansion— schools provide a framework for joint working in which the lines of accountability remain clear. The co-operative Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Interventions trust model is one of many that facilitate effective should be brief and in the form of a question. partnership working. It is true that the education system is increasingly diverse, and we are seeing many models Mr Timpson: I like to think that I am typical of the emerge, such as multi-academy trusts and teaching schools. Conservative party, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman That is helping to increase the choice for parents and feels the same about himself and his party. It is clear the support for schools. Parents are clearly aware of the that there is a determination to drive up standards co-operative movement in the education system because across our education system. He will appreciate that we more of their children are being taught within it. There are in the last few weeks of this Parliament, so there will is clearly value for communities across the country, be no time to change legislation. Nevertheless, we must including my own constituency, in having that model increase and better understand the evidence base, so available for education provision. that co-operative schools can show the impact they are The hon. Lady asked about amending the legislation having and we can possibly widen their remit and on maintained nursery schools—an issue that goes back potential in future. to the previous Government and the Education and The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley has met Lord Inspections Act 2006—and I know that she has some Nash, and as part of her exchange with the Secretary of regret that the opportunity to resolve the matter was State for Education, she was invited to provide evidence not taken up at that stage. I am sure that, beyond 7 May, on why we should accede to some of her suggestions, she will continue to fight to allow a co-operative trust to both legislative and otherwise. I look forward to receiving support a maintained nursery school in much the same that evidence in due course. way as it can a maintained school. The Government have supported collaboration in such institutions, with Meg Munn: Significant evidence has already been the sector already benefiting from the freedom to create provided. With all due respect to the Minister, for partnerships, should that be the choice. Maintained whom I have a lot of time, the problem is that the nursery schools can already work with other local partners evidence is there and the opportunity was there with the and the wider community, and they can federate with Deregulation Bill, but this has simply been blocked. other schools and early years providers. A wide range of providers facilitate the parental choice that we all hold Mr Timpson: The hon. Lady received a letter from dear. That comes with a high degree of autonomy. the Secretary of State on 11 February that set out the Similar to our position on schools, the Government Government’s position on the legislation and the require more evidence of educational gain if we are to amendments that were tabled in both this House and expand provision into the nursery arena, and we must the other place. She will appreciate that the position look more closely at the fact that only a small percentage articulated by the Secretary of State in that letter makes of overall providers could do that. it clear that additional evidence or arguments in support of the educational benefits are still required to reassure Meg Munn: One thing that I struggle with is that the the Secretary of State that the changes would be worth evidence base for free schools is nowhere near as robust while. The hon. Lady will appreciate that that issue falls as the evidence base for co-operative schools. For example, outside my portfolio. The best I can offer is to take back the excellence that has been achieved in a multi-school her clear sense of the direction that we need to follow. If trust in Birmingham is there for all to see. Why is the she wishes to provide any further and better particulars Department so resistant to supporting co-operative schools to support her argument, I will endeavour to ensure that as an alternative model? they are shared as soon as possible. We are seeking to ensure that we are able to deliver Mr Timpson: We have, of course, seen co-operative better results, year on year and right across the education free schools emerge as well. The free schools policy is system. Inspection data show that more schools are benefiting the co-operative movement and helping to now rated as good or outstanding than at any time since increase the diversity of choice for parents. There is no Ofsted was created in 1992. Based on the most recent reluctance, and there is no attempt either to suppress or inspections, 81% of all schools are outstanding or good. deny the expansion of any type of school. The issue is Since 2009-10, the proportion of schools rated less than one of empowering parents to make the decision to 123WH Co-operative Schools 11 MARCH 2015 124WH

[Mr Timpson] Transport Management: Kent expand provision if they feel that there are not enough good school places in their area. On Monday, I visited 4.30 pm Cheadle Hulme primary school, a new free school that Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): It is a pleasure to will be opening soon to meet the need in an area with have the debate under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I mixed advantage but a particular lack of places. That is am bringing before the House the issue of gridlock in a good example of how the flexibility that we have Dover recently and the wider problems on the M20 and provided to the education system is allowing parents, A20 through Kent. outstanding head teachers, charities, and others with an The most pressing matter for my constituents is the interest in boosting education throughout the country, gridlock in Dover. In January and February 2015, and the opportunity to do just that. indeed today, Dover has been experiencing a serious rise in gridlock on the roads through and into the town. Steve Baker: The hon. Lady opened her speech with a Tailbacks and gridlock have been a constant problem clear summary of what the Prime Minister has said. As for many years, but they have become more serious Conservatives, surely we should believe in a dynamic recently. They have the following effects: residents are process of discovery. Although I admire my hon. Friend unable to travel around my constituency or Kent in the Minister’s noble defence of the Government’s position, general; local businesses are hurt as visitors stay away is it not time that we allowed some of these schools to or cannot access businesses in the town; access for expand at nursery level to discover whether they will emergency vehicles is restricted, as is access altogether succeed? to some parts of Dover, in particular for the long-suffering residents of Aycliffe; and vast amounts of rubbish and Mr Timpson: I applaud the passion displayed by my litter are left along the A20 by the drivers of parked hon. Friend not only today but on many other occasions heavy goods vehicles. Some of that rubbish is unhealthy when he has advocated the co-operative movement, or contaminated waste and does not belong on a roadside. both at Cressex school in his constituency and elsewhere. He will appreciate that I am not the man with the To give an idea of the gravity of the problem, a manifesto in his hands, so I cannot give him any reliable number of my constituents have got in touch to tell me information about what reassurance we might be able their experiences over the past few months. On 20 December, to provide in that document. Nevertheless, I hope that I Mr and Mrs Brown, residents of Dover, wrote to me: am able to put across the fact that, in the expansion of “Dover has been gridlocked with lorries and traffic travelling co-operative schools that we are seeing—they are set to to the Port constantly for 3 weeks. I dread to think what the fumes get into four figures by the end of next year—there has from the continuous running of the static engines are doing to our health, let alone the use of our streets as lavatories”. been no holding back of those who want to take that step. Ultimately, it should be for the individual school On 15 January 2015, Rohan Sootarsing, a resident of or community to make the choice that they feel best fits Guston, wrote: with the need in their local area. That is the right “Every night this week my usual 20/30 minute drive home from approach. Through the expansion of the academies work has taken nearly two hours.” programme, with more than 60% of secondary schools Mr Parsons, a resident of Martin Mill, wrote to me on and 17%—and rising—of primary schools now having 20 January: academy status, we have seen a real movement that “I have taken nearly 3 hours to complete a road journey that helps to support and complement the co-operative would normally be completed in 25 minutes. There was a backlog movement in driving forward quality and higher standards of HGVs that started at Capel and continued to the docks. This in the education system. area of the A20 was gridlocked entirely due to trucks blocking both carriageways.” Meg Munn: We could get to 5,000 co-operative schools Mr Dowley of Capel-le-Ferne wrote to me on 24 January in the next five years if we changed the law and made it about the M20 between Dover and Capel: easier. Why will the Government not sign up to give so “On 21st January numerous lorries were parked, without lights, many schools that opportunity? on the hard shoulder. On 24th January on the M20 heading west, 15 articulated lorries were parked on the hard shoulder”. Mr Timpson: No limit has been put on the expansion On 30 January Mr Terry, a local businessman, wrote to of co-operative schools under this Government; indeed, me: we have seen a huge rise. There is no cap and there has “I run a business in Snargate Street and the continual queuing been no attempt to try to dilute that opportunity. With of lorries is having a seriously detrimental effect on it. The the hon. Lady’s huge influence in her party, I am sure Harbour Board Police block the roundabouts to prevent the that when she has some control over the manifesto that lorries from cutting into the queue, but this also prevents us from is being written, she will make co-operative schools a getting into Snargate Street”. centrepiece of Labour’s offer. In saying that, I re-emphasise Mr Wilson, another local businessman, wrote on that the Government do hugely value the role of 5 February: co-operative schools, but more importantly the people “Last evening after leaving work I had to drive up the A20 to who work in them. They work extremely hard to ensure Capel-le-Ferne to get back into Dover via the B2011. An extra that children in their area get the best possible start in 7 miles or so on my journey home”. life. That should be the driving force for any of our On 11 February a Mr Williams wrote: efforts to support children into adulthood. I hope that “Roundabout is blocked, and fire service answering a call at we can do that in future. the school could not get past traffic”. This morning Mr Dodd, a resident of Aycliffe, which is again cut off today, wrote: 125WH Transport Management: Kent11 MARCH 2015 Transport Management: Kent 126WH

“Lorries are backed up on the A20 and both lanes are blocked. I have spoken to in Dover and Deal, with a measure of The first roundabout at South Military Road to Aycliffe and consensus throughout east Kent and among the long- lorries are continuously blocking the entrances and exit”. suffering residents along the M20. This morning the chairman of community group Castle Forum, Denise Smith, wrote to me: Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): I congratulate my “Local and regular disruption happens many times a week and hon. Friend on securing the debate. As he has is not caused by extreme events, but by volume of freight traffic not being processed and taken into the docks. Therefore we would acknowledged, the problem is not only a Dover one. like to make it clear that this request is NOT about Op Stack but My constituents in Ashford and many other people about Operation Open-Dover.” throughout Kent or passing through to do business find I hope to set out the situation that my residents and the clogging up of the motorways to be unacceptable, in constituents have to face and put up with constantly. particular during Operation Stack. Does he agree that The causes include, first of all, simply, economic growth— the solution, as he is beginning to set out, is a series of our long-term economic plan is working, and all too lorry parks around both the M20 and the M2? A well for the port of Dover. The rise of international consensus Kent proposal to put to the Minister is now trade is greater than economic growth. In the past year essential, so that we may facilitate his great desire to freight traffic has risen 10% and it is forecast to grow help us. further. So the problem is structural and it will not go away; it will become more serious unless action is taken. Charlie Elphicke: I completely agree. There needs to There is also a structural problem around Dover, be a consensus solution. All of us are finding and with restrictions on the flow of traffic through the town building that consensus. More places for lorries to park and the lack of space in the port zone causing gridlock. at the tunnel and indeed the docks are welcome, but Poor management of one-off problems such as the fire they are still constrained and not enough given the in the Channel tunnel not so long ago, and Dover port growth in international trade. A thousand spaces around ferries being away on maintenance because there have Folkestone, at the site that has been identified as a been problems, have contributed to the situation, as has leading candidate, would be a start, but it is not enough. a lack of investment by the Dover Harbour Board and We need to look at other lorry parks—not one mega-park, ferry companies in IT systems or advance check-in for but a number of parks down the M20. In particular, we the management of inbound lorries. I want to focus on need to look at Detling; the Kent County Show ground advance check-in as a way to deal with the problem offers great potential for a park to be used in Operation through a longer-term, sustainable solution. Stack. I will come on to that, as Operation Stack is less The first of my proposed solutions therefore is that frequent than the literally nightly gridlock my constituents Ministers treat this as a national strategic priority. The suffer. traffic situation facing Dover should be such a priority My proposal is to have an advance check-in lorry and the Minister, who has responsibility for roads, is park at Folkestone, which would clear Dover of the best placed to lead on finding a solution, in particular queues of lorries blocking the town centre and causing because he has been the most proactive and energetic tailbacks. That would improve access to residential roads Minister on the matter in the past 20 years. areas such as Aycliffe, where the long-suffering residents Recently, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford long to get out of their area and not be jammed in by (Damian Green), who is in his place, my hon. Friend lorries. Port and ferry companies need to work together the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), to invest in advance check-in lorry parks; they should who regrets that she cannot be with us today, and my do their bit by taking responsibility for the problems hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe that they contribute to. They need to invest in their IT (Damian Collins), met with the roads Minister. It was to bring it up to date in time for the exit checks that will great to see the difficulties being encountered taken up come in shortly. with such alacrity, for which all of us in Kent are Funding could also be provided through the HGV extremely grateful. We urge the Minister to go further road user levy, which has raised over £23 million to date. and to take the situation on as a specific national Funding for lorry parking of £3 million has already strategic priority. been won from central Government through the local My second solution is the necessary advance check-in enterprise partnership. To that could be added another system. The eastern docks have only 1,000 spaces, but £5 million that the LEP has won to facilitate the expansion with a park further up the motorway of 1,000 spaces, of the port. Port expansion should be conditional on for example, we could do advance check-in and the there being lorry parking capacity so that lorries can go sorting of lorries there, then stream them into the docks into the port zone and on to ferries. so that they can move swiftly through the port zone and My next solution is more proactive policing. Both on to the ferries for departure to the continent. That Kent police and the Port of Dover police need to take sort of dedicated lorry park for advance check-in before more effective action to ensure that traffic is managed the lorries arrive at the port should be implemented as a more effectively and more speedily whenever there is priority. short-term disruption at the port and the channel tunnel. It is ridiculous that lorries can simply head into The police need to clamp down on illegal HGV parking Dover irrespective of whether there is space for them or to ensure that lorries do not cause gridlock or access a ferry is available. The issue needs to be dealt with and problems to Dover. Kent county council ought to consider a site near Folkestone with the possibility of 1,000 spaces issuing traffic orders under section 1 of the Road Traffic has been identified. Shepway district council tells me Regulation Act 1984 to turn the A20 into a clearway, that it is keen to give planning permission for up to where no parking is allowed. It should also look at 1,000 spaces. The proposal is supported by the people weight restrictions on outside lanes and other measures 127WH Transport Management: Kent11 MARCH 2015 Transport Management: Kent 128WH

[Charlie Elphicke] advocate, an impressive campaigner and a sagacious voice in this House. I listen to him carefully about all that could be used to ease congestion on the A20 and such matters. M20. Such measures are taken elsewhere, so we could Before I respond to the specific points my hon. Friend do it at Dover as well. has raised, it is perhaps worth me setting those comments I turn now to the related but separate issue of Operation in the context of the Government’s wider view about Stack. Since 2010, it has come into effect four times, so the strategic road network. I will speak about the questions effectively, on average, once a year. When it happens it is he has raised, and I think I have good news for him, but serious and problematic. That is why, as my right hon. I do not want to deliver that until the end of my speech, Friend the Member for Ashford rightly says, there need because otherwise I will blunt the excitement that is to be further lorry parks further up the motorway, already being to percolate through the Chamber. rather than the M20 being turned into a gigantic car Let me instead say a few words about a subject that is park, which is what happens at the moment. When almost equally as exciting—there are those who would Operation Stack is in place the motorway in effect say it is more exciting, but I am not prepared to say that becomes single lane, causing congestion and massive in a debate on Kent, which, as my hon. Friend and difficulties throughout Kent. We need extra lorry parks others know, is very dear to my heart. The strategic further up the M20. road network matters for all kinds of reasons. Its strategic Finally, I turn to my requests to the Minister. First, importance can barely be overstated. The arterial routes will he agree to make this matter a national strategic by which goods are moved around and businesses do priority and to take the lead on the issue in his capacity business are vital to our economic well-being and to the as roads Minister? Secondly, will he give an update on success of our long-term economic plan, to which he the progress of the review seeking long-term solutions drew the Chamber’s attention. Less frequently argued to the problem? Thirdly, will he agree to support, if only for, although of equal importance, is the effect that our in principle, a request made to Kent county council to roads have on societal interests—communal well-being introduce a clearway through the A20 by a traffic order? and individual opportunities. The ability to get to where Finally, will he look to provide funding for the advance we need to go, whether for jobs, for public services or check-in lorry park, either from Government funds, simply for recreational travel, plays an important part from LEP funds or by leaning on the port and ferry in all our lives and can enhance them or do the opposite. companies so that they understand their need to take Traffic congestion and any compromises on road responsibility and to do their bit? That way we can safety do damage, so it is vital that the Government bring forward the investment needed to ensure that take seriously the considerations that my hon. Friend traffic can move swiftly throughout Kent. has brought to our attention, and also take seriously As well as being roads Minister, the Minister has had our duty—I use the word advisedly, as it is more than a responsibility for ports, and has been instrumental, as a responsibility—to plan carefully for the development of people’s champion, in bringing forward a people’s port our strategic road network. at Dover, for which I thank and praise him. There is a I think I can say without hyperbole that this Government real opportunity to extend that further by ensuring that have done exceptionally well in those terms, with the people in Dover and across Kent are more able to go biggest road building programme of my adult lifetime—that about their daily business, to enjoy their lives, to bear illustrates how very young I am—and a strategic plan less of the burden of our centre of international trade, that in scale and character is genuinely impressive. transport and commerce and to enjoy more of its There has been investment of £15.3 billion with schemes benefits, for the future economic prosperity of Kent across the country that, when gauged in cost-benefit and of Britain. terms, on an empirical basis are as impressive as anything we have ever seen, and money following that strategy. 4.44 pm To forward-commit funds to a road investment programme of this scale is not something that Governments The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John have typically done. Our statement of 26 June 2013 Hayes): I have not served under your stewardship very announcing the conclusion of the Government’s 2013 frequently, Mrs Main, so it is a particular delight to do spending review made it clear that there would be a step so, certainly for me; I hope it will be for you, as well. It is change in road investment. Our more recent work, at also a pleasure to respond to the debate secured by my the end of last year, with the publication of our road hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). investment strategy, gave life to that investment plan. We have met a number of times about Kent issues, The plan will take us through to 2020-21, deliver including about the port of Kent, which is closely improvements and put us on a path to achieving our connected to our considerations today. We have also long-term vision. met about road traffic issues in Kent. He is right to draw attention to the meeting I held with a number of The scheme to improve our major roads will have a Kentish Members, including him and my right hon. long-lasting and wide-ranging effect, but, as we discussed Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green), who when we debated the Infrastructure Bill, which I was is in his place. honoured to take through the House, I was determined that the Government should amend their thinking—I Ruskin said: like to bring fresh thinking to all the jobs that I do in “The highest reward for a person’s toil is not what they get for government—to include a legislative requirement to it but what they become by it.” take into account route strategies. They should take In those terms, the assiduity of my hon. Friend the into account the plans of local highways authorities for Member for Dover—his labour in representing the interests the roads that adjoin the main arterial routes in places of his constituents—has turned him into a powerful such as Kent, Lincolnshire and elsewhere, because it 129WH Transport Management: Kent11 MARCH 2015 Transport Management: Kent 130WH seems to me that we can improve the major roads, but regional solution was required precisely because the unless we take account of the roads that feed them and reverberating effect—the ripple effect—was so significant. that are fed by them, the character of the investment Any solution must include managing the traffic better and the nature of the improvements that I have described and minimising the effects of traffic as increased numbers will not be fully realised. So, it is through the route of vehicles use the network. The proposal that my hon. strategies that we will ensure there are operational Friend the Member for Dover makes regarding the use investment priorities for all routes on the strategic road of Stop 24 in Folkestone as an advance check-in for network, which are consistent and coherent in as much Dover port is interesting and it will be given further as they involve those more local plans. consideration. I give him that undertaking today. The Kent corridors to the M25 that encompass the I recognise that Operation Stack must be a last, not area we are discussing, for the period up to March 2021, first, resort and that the solutions are likely to include a will be included in the strategy. The Highways Agency mix of private and public sector actions. I commend published a set of evidence reports developed directly all parties involved in this work for taking on this from the work that we have done, and a number of difficult task. I expect the public to see a real difference routes in Kent are being considered as part of that in the coming months and weeks. The issue has plagued work. Those studies are being finalised, and the Highways the people of Kent intermittently for many years, and Agency aims to publish the second part of the route the Government have resolved to ensure it is addressed. strategy shortly, which will include a number of schemes However, Operation Stack is a last resort, not a first in Kent. resort. I want to see long-term solutions proposed and As part of the spending round in June 2013, the steps taken to prevent Operation Stack from being Government committed to funding the M20 junction 10A needed in the first place. The Government recognise scheme, subject to finalisation of options and agreement the value of the port of Dover and Eurotunnel to the being reached on developer contributions. The existing national and local economies, but we need to ensure M20 junction 10 south of Ashford, as my right hon. that the communities of Kent are not inconvenienced Friend the Member for Ashford knows, suffers from by them. Those involved need to understand that, too, congestion and delays, especially in peak periods, mainly as my hon. Friend the Member for Dover suggested. due to conflict between strategic and local traffic. That I will deal now with the exciting news that I promised. is precisely why the relationship between the route strategies In principle, the Government could, through a traffic and our road investment plan is so vital. Improved order, support any request made to Kent county council access to and from the motorway via the proposed to introduce a clearway along the A20. That is something junction 10A is seen as a key part of delivering the my hon. Friend has asked for. He made his case responsibly proposed development in Ashford. As my right hon. and clearly, and it is something I am keen to take Friend has made clear a number of times, the development forward. I understand that the A20 is a Highways in Ashford, which is substantial—31,000 homes and Agency road, not a Kent county council road, and it 28,000 jobs—will, under the local plan and the growth would put the traffic order in place. However, I have area agenda, lead to significant extra demand on the been advised that the creation of a clearway would not road network there. necessarily solve all the problems of traffic queuing on In November, we changed the charging method of the A20. one of the worst performing parts of the strategic road network anywhere in the country, the Dartford-Thurrock On the advance check-in lorry park at Stop 24, as my crossing, leading to an immediate improvement in the hon. Friend has suggested, this could be done through performance of the crossing. I know that this is only a revenue raised through the HGV road user levy. I am medium-term measure to alleviate the congestion that not a great supporter of hypothecation, as I know he is previously afflicted the crossing. In the longer term, a not, either, because we have talked about that on other new Lower Thames crossing is needed to provide additional occasions in other forums. None the less, I think we capacity. Without going into detail, the House will want would need the Department to take action alongside, as to know that we are considering options. We are listening he has also suggested, the port and ferry companies to to local stakeholders, and we will say more about that in develop a funding strategy for investment in traffic the next Parliament when the Government, led by my management in the Dover area. We will continue those right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and in which I will discussions, but I think we will do more than that. play a central and vital role, will, I hope, be able to put As my hon. Friend says, we need to look at IT into operation an exciting new scheme there. systems. We certainly need to look at lorry parks, and My hon. Friend the Member for Dover raised specific I will ensure that the various groups looking into the issues and I will deal with them in the way that he asked issue of traffic management in Kent take his proposal me to. He has, as other Kentish MPs have, made a into close consideration. I am prepared to make funding strong case for Operation Stack. When Operation Stack available for this. I will say more than that. There are is in place, great disruption and inconvenience are caused additional measures emanating from a different to the citizens of Kent, and we need to find a long-term Department, which will have an effect on traffic movements solution. I hear what he and my right hon. Friend the in the near term, so we cannot afford to let the grass Member for Ashford say about there not being a single grow under our feet. We need a solution that will ensure solution. There is a strong argument for a series of that those additional measures that emanate from measures across the county, which alleviate the congestion Government do not have a deleterious effect on the that arises from those occasional but none the less interests of the people of Dover and other parts of important happenings that were described. Kent, or on other people using the port. When I had the meeting that included my hon. Friends We will introduce further proposals as a direct result the Members for Dover and for Chatham and Aylesford of those considerations—stimulated by this debate, inspired (Tracey Crouch), the point was made to me that a by my hon. Friend’s commitment, informed by him and 131WH Transport Management: Kent11 MARCH 2015 Transport Management: Kent 132WH

[Mr John Hayes] My hon. Friend described me in extremely complimentary terms—perhaps even more complimentary than I other Kentish Members—to address the issues, and I deserve—but I am the kind of Minister who makes the plan to do so before the end of this Parliament. I put iron hot by striking. this on the record: we will introduce those proposals in Question put and agreed to. good time, in good order and in good shape. WB Yeats said: 4.59 pm “Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking.” Sitting adjourned. 11WS Written Statements11 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 12WS

element of localism. Neighbourhoods are where local Written Statements democracy begins and where people are often most ready to get involved. Working at the neighbourhood Wednesday 11 March 2015 level can transform local services, with better collaboration between agencies and services more flexible and responsive to local need. We want to see communities more in control of the decisions, assets and services that affect DEFENCE them; to build different relationships between people and services—with interaction, engagement and ownership Single Source Profit Rate accepted as the norm; and for people to have an understanding of how they can make a difference. Our support for neighbourhood planning is helping over The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence 1,400 communities shape the future development of (Mr Philip Dunne): I am today announcing that the their area; the delivering differently in neighbourhoods Secretary of State for Defence has accepted the revised programme is helping local authorities redesign services profit formula allowances recommended by the Single around the neighbourhood level; and we have supported Source Regulations Office (SSRO). The new profit rates 100 areas in using the our place approach to enable for 2015, which are lower than those currently in force, communities to have a greater say in how services are will be published in the London Gazette, as required by delivered in their area. On 17 February 2015 I announced the Defence Reform Act 2014 and will come into effect a £6 million funding boost to the community rights from 1 April 2015 onwards. The table below shows the programme for 2015-16, to help give even more people change to the profit rate. greater control and influence over what happens locally. Parish councils are a vital part of this picture, as the Element Rates 2014 Rates 2015 tier of local government closest to their communities. Baseline Profit Rate 10.70% 10.60% Parish councils provide communities with a democratically (BPR) accountable voice and a structure for taking community (% on contract cost) action. Currently only around two fifths of the population Fixed Capital Servicing 6.20% 5.94% is covered by a parish council, so the Government want Allowance to make it easier to set up new town and parish councils (% on Fixed Capital by changing the rules around how community governance employed) reviews are triggered and carried out. Working Capital 2.07% 1.72% The draft Legislative Reform (Community Governance Servicing Allowance Reviews) Order 2015 was laid before Parliament on (% on positive Working Capital employed) 11 December 2014. The order aims to make it easier to set up new town and parish councils by proposing a Working Capital 1.25% 1.03% Servicing Allowance reduction in the percentage of local government electors 9% on negative Working required to sign a community governance petition, to Capital employed) trigger a review, from 10% to 7.5% in larger electorates—the proportions required for smaller electorates would be I announced on 9 June 2014 the Department’s intention reduced in line with that change. It also proposes a to replace the review board with the more empowered reduction in the period for the relevant local authority independent public body, the SSRO, as a result of the to conclude a community governance review, from new single source contract regime introduced by the 12 months from the date the review begins, to 12 months Defence Reform Act 2014 and by the single source from the date of receipt of the petition or application. contract regulations 2014. This came into force on 18 Finally, it proposes that those neighbourhood forums December 2014. I am now able to announce the formal which have a neighbourhood development plan that has dissolution of the Review Board for Government Contracts passed a referendum should be given the right to trigger with effect from 31 March 2015. a community governance review without the need for a I would like to put on record my thanks to the review petition. board chairman, Mr Price, and to his four board members The House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Messrs Beesley, Dobbyn, Mathias and Ms Skoyles for Reform Committee recommended, in its 15th report, their dedicated services to the review board these past that the order follow the super-affirmative procedure years, and for their assistance in helping with the transition and sought some additional information about the nature to the new regime. of the burdens in relation to the changes to reduce the [HCWS367] time period for a community governance review and to give neighbourhood forums the right to trigger a community governance review. The Committee also raised the issue of the proportionality of the changes proposed. Following COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT consideration of additional information provided by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Town and Parish Councils Government, the Committee has reported, in its 19th report, published on 6 March, that it is now satisfied that the order meets the tests set out in the Legislative and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Regulatory Reform Act 2006 and is not otherwise Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams): inappropriate for the Legislative Reform Order procedure. The Government believe that neighbourhoods, and the (The correspondence between the Committee and the communities that live in them, are the most fundamental Secretary of State is published in its 19th report.) 13WS Written Statements11 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 14WS

The House of Commons Regulatory Reform Committee the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security recommended that the draft order be approved subject Policy, Federica Mogherini, and the General Affairs to the outcome of the further deliberations of the Lords Council will be chaired by the Latvian presidency. The Committee. meetings will be held in Brussels. No other representations have been made to the Department for Communities and Local Government FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL in connection with this order. I therefore propose to Bosnia Herzegovina (BiH) proceed with the draft order without any revisions. [HCWS369] During her introduction, Ms Mogherini will update Ministers on progress of the EU initiative on Bosnia. Now that the BiH Parliament has approved the written commitment to reform we expect Ms Mogherini to ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS recommend that the Foreign Affairs Council give political agreement for the EU/BiH stabilisation and association agreement to be adopted at the April General Affairs Marine Management Organisation (Triennial Review) Council. The UK will fully support this approach. Africa The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Ministers will have a strategic discussion on Africa, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): which was rescheduled from the February FAC. The Today I am publishing the report of the triennial review UK will stress the link between trade and development of the Marine Management Organisation (MMO), which and peace and security, and underline the importance was launched by DEFRA’s then Under-Secretary of of the EU retaining its role as a key player on the State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs the hon. continent. The UK will also emphasise the importance Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) on 10 September of a partnership of equals: the EU should welcome the 2013. Triennial reviews of non-departmental public bodies African Union’s developing capacity to respond to African are part of the Government’s commitment to ensuring crises, while encouraging the Africans to speak out accountability in public life. constructively on global issues. The UK will also use The MMO exists to make a significant contribution the FAC to focus on Nigeria’s 28 March presidential to sustainable development in the marine areas and to elections and will want to signal continued support for promote the UK Government’s vision for clean, healthy, supporting regional efforts to tackle Boko Haram. The safe, productive and biologically diverse oceans and UK will also encourage the EU to capitalise on the seas. The purpose behind its creation was to bring successful high-level Ebola conference on 3 March, marine management activities from across Government stressing the primary objective of getting to zero new into one place, to provide a more integrated approach cases and the immediate need to fund the $400 million to fisheries management, marine planning, licensing of critical activity to achieve this, as well as other and conservation. priorities such as improved regional co-ordination and a safe transition to a sustainable recovery. The review has concluded that the functions of the MMO are necessary for the UK Government’s vision Libya for clean, healthy, safe, productive and biologically diverse We expect the discussion to focus on the role that the oceans and seas. The function should continue to be EU should play in Libya. The UK will seek agreement delivered by a non-departmental public body; and the from member states to a twin-track approach that includes MMO remains the right body to deliver them. providing support to the political process and improving The review also considered the MMO’s governance the security situation. A further discussion on Libya and control arrangements. It found many positive features will take place at the European Council on 19 March. and concluded that it has shown improvements in service Eastern Partnership delivery since 2010. However, the review has made some Ministers will discuss preparations for the Eastern recommendations. Partnership summit, which will take place in Riga on The full report of the review of the MMO can be 21-22 May 2015. The UK will argue that the summit found on the website at: http://www.gov.uk and copies should send a strong message endorsing the sovereign have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. right of Eastern Partnership countries—Armenia, [HCWS366] Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine—to make their own strategic choices without third party interference. The EU should also confirm support for the implementation of real reforms on the ground for FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE the benefit of citizens of partner countries, including through the implementation of the EU association agreements with Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council Migration Ms Mogherini has proposed a review of policies on The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My migration, arguing that the challenge of migratory pressures right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and needs both a political and operational response, with Commonwealth Affairs will attend the Foreign Affairs migration being linked to external affairs and other Council on 16 March and I will attend the General engagements with third countries. Ministers will consider Affairs Council on 17 March. The Foreign Affairs this review and have a strategic discussion on the proposed Council will be chaired by the High Representative of migration agenda. The UK broadly supports this initiative 15WS Written Statements11 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 16WS but we look forward to further detailed information three month certificate remains at £29.10, and the cost of the about the proposal and how it may impact on our annual certificate will remain at £104. An annual certificate broader interests. means that a person can have all the prescribed items they require during the year dispensed for £2 per week. AOB: Iraq Regulations have also been laid to increase NHS dental The Hungarian Government have requested that member charges from 1 April 2015. The dental charge payable for a states contribute financially to an appeal by Archbishop band one course of treatment will increase by 30p from Wardh of Erbil for Christian families displaced by £18.50 to £18.80. The dental charge for a band 2 course of ISIL. The UK remains deeply concerned by the persecution treatment will increase by 80p from £50.50 to £51.30. The of all communities, Muslims, Christians, Yezidis, Turkmen charge for a band 3 course of treatment will increase by and others, by ISIL. The UK is providing £39.5 million £3.50 from £219 to £222.50. The small increases this year are in humanitarian aid and supports the commitments lower than in recent years. made by Iraqi Prime Minister Abadi to inclusive governance Dental charges represent an important contribution to and protecting the rights of all minorities. the overall cost of dental services. The exact amount raised will be dependent upon the level and type of primary dental care services commissioned by NHS England and the proportion GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL of charge paying patients who attend dentists and the level The General Affairs Council (GAC) on 17 March is of treatment they require. due to focus on: preparation of the European Council Charges will also be increased, by an overall 1.6%, for on 19 and 20 March 2015; and the European semester. wigs and fabric supports. Preparation of the March European Council The range of NHS optical vouchers available to children, The GAC will prepare the 19 and 20 March European people on low incomes and individuals with complex sight Council, which the Prime Minister will attend. The problems are also being increased in value. In order to continue to provide help with the cost of spectacles and March European Council agenda is expected to include: contact lenses, optical voucher values will rise by an overall energy union; economic issues (including the 2015 European 1%. semester); and external relations issues (likely to include preparation for the Eastern Partnership summit in May, Details of the revised charges are in the following tables. Ukraine and Libya). NHS Charges—England from 1 April 2015 European Semester New Charge (£) The GAC will consider the synthesis report on the Prescription Charges 2015 European semester exercise. This is a policy discussion Single item £8.20 and there are no anticipated outputs at this stage. We 3 month PPC (no change) £29.10 welcome the focus of the annual growth survey on jobs 12 month PPC (no change) £104.00 and growth and emphasise that the semester should not be diluted by the inclusion of other agendas. Dental Charges [HCWS368] Band 1 course of treatment £18.80 Band 2 course of treatment £51.30 Band 3 course of treatment £222.50 HEALTH Wigs and Fabrics NHS Charges Surgical brassiere £27.45 Abdominal or spinal support £41.50 Stock modacrylic wig £67.75 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Partial human hair wig £179.45 (Dr Daniel Poulter): My right hon. Friend the Under- Full bespoke human hair wig £262.45 Secretary of State, Department of Health, Earl Howe, Optical voucher values from 1 April 2015 has made the following written ministerial statement. Type of optical appliance Value Regulations have been laid before Parliament to increase certain national health service charges in England from 1 A Glasses with single vision lenses: spherical power £38.70 April 2015. of ≤ 6 dioptres, cylindrical power of ≤ 2 dioptres. This Government have made tough decisions to protect B Glasses with single vision lenses: £58.70 the NHS budget and increase it in real terms, but health - spherical power of > 6 dioptres but < 10 charges remain an important source of revenue to support dioptres, cylindrical power of ≤ 6 dioptres; the delivery of high-quality NHS services. This is particularly - spherical power of < 10 dioptres, cylindrical important given the increasing demands on the NHS, with power of > 2 dioptres but ≤ 6 dioptres. spending on medicines alone doubling since 2000. It is C Glasses with single vision lenses: £86 therefore crucial that these charges increase to keep up with - spherical power of ≥ 10 dioptres but ≤ 14 rising costs. dioptres, cylindrical power ≤ 6 dioptres. This year, we have increased the prescription charge by D Glasses with single vision lenses: £194.10 15p from £8.05 to £8.20 for each medicine or appliance - spherical power of > 14 dioptres with any dispensed. cylindrical power; Ninety per cent of prescription items are already provided - cylindrical power of > 6 dioptres with any free of charge. spherical power. To ensure that people with the greatest need are protected, E Glasses with bifocal lenses: £66.80 such as those who are not eligible for free prescriptions but - spherical power of ≤ 6 dioptres, cylindrical who have long-term conditions, we have again frozen the power of ≤ 2 dioptres. costs of a prescription prepayment certificate (PPC). The 17WS Written Statements11 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 18WS

Optical voucher values from 1 April 2015 Optical voucher values from 1 April 2015 Type of optical appliance Value Type of optical appliance Value

F Glasses with bifocal lenses; £84.80 - cylindrical power of > 6 dioptres with any - spherical power of > 6 dioptres but < 10 spherical power. dioptres, cylindrical power of ≤ 6 dioptres; I (HES) Glasses not falling within any of £198.80 - spherical power of < 10 dioptres, cylindrical paragraphs 1 to 8 for which a prescription is power of > 2 dioptres but ≤ 6 dioptres. given in consequence of a testing of sight by an NHS trust. G Glasses with bifocal lenses: £110.10 J Contact lenses for which a prescription is given £56.40 - spherical power of ≥ 10 dioptres but ≤ 14 in consequence of a sight test by an NHS trust dioptres, cylindrical power = 6 dioptres. or NHS foundation trust. H Glasses with prism-controlled bifocal lenses of £213.40 any power or with bifocal lenses: - spherical power of > 14 dioptres with any cylindrical power; [HCWS370] ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 11 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 277 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Cost of Living...... 284 Political Situation...... 281 Flags and Parades ...... 283 Government’s Economic Pact ...... 278 National Crime Agency ...... 285 PRIME MINISTER ...... 286 Political Parties: Donations and Loans ...... 277 Engagements...... 286 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 11 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 11WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 13WS Town and Parish Councils...... 11WS Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council ...... 13WS DEFENCE...... 11WS Single Source Profit Rate...... 11WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 13WS HEALTH...... 15WS Marine Management Organisation (Triennial NHS Charges...... 15WS Review) ...... 13WS Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 11 March 2015

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 277] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Bills Presented [Col. 298] Bills presented, and read the First time

Horses and Ponies (Live Export) [Col. 300] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Gregory Barker)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [19th allotted day] General Election Television Debates [Col. 303] Motion—(Mr Dodds)—agreed to Cross-border Crime [Col. 336] Motion—(Dr McCrea)—agreed to

Ark Pension Schemes [Col. 371] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Public Health [Col. 379] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Russian Membership of the Council of Europe [Col. 65WH] British Hong Kong Servicemen [Col. 87WH] HIV Treatment: Low and Middle-income Countries [Col. 95WH] Co-operative Schools [Col. 116WH] Transport Management: Kent [Col. 124WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http//www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]