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Public Transcript of the Hearing Held on 18 October 2017 in the Case Of 20171018_STL-11-01_T_T410_OFF_PUB_EN 1/85 PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 1 1 Special Tribunal for Lebanon 2 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Ayyash, Merhi, 3 Oneissi, and Sabra 4 STL-11-01 5 Presiding Judge David Re, Judge Janet Nosworthy, 6 Judge Micheline Braidy, Judge Walid Akoum, and 7 Judge Nicola Lettieri - [Trial Chamber] 8 Wednesday, 18 October 2017 - [Trial Hearing] 9 [Open Session] 10 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m. 11 THE REGISTRAR: The Special Tribunal for Lebanon is sitting in an 12 open session in the case of the Prosecutor versus Ayyash, Merhi, Oneissi, 13 and Sabra, case number STL-11-01. PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning. We 14 will come to the cross-examination of Mr. Donaldson in just a moment. 15 First I note appearing today for the Prosecution are 16 Mr. Desalliers, Ms. De Bruir, and Ms. Poulin - welcome back, Ms. Poulin, 17 it's been a while; Mr. Haynes is for the Legal Representatives of 18 Victims; Mr. Aoun and Mr. Hannis for Mr. Ayyash; Ms. Le Fraper du Hellen 19 for Mr. Merhi; Ms. Bafadhel for Mr. Sabra; and Ms. von Wistinghausen for 20 Mr. Oneissi. And there appear to be two representatives for the Defence 21 Office in the courtroom. 22 Now, are we starting with the witness or is there something else 23 we need to deal with? All right. Well, let's start with the witness. 24 Mr. Hannis, good morning to you. We'll give you a chance to 25 organize your papers and sort of ease your way in as the witness is Wednesday, 18 October 2017 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20171018_STL-11-01_T_T410_OFF_PUB_EN 2/85 PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 2 1 making his way into the courtroom. 2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. And while that's happening, 3 may I inquire about the sitting schedule today. I know we've started 4 early. I'm inquiring about the breaks actually, Your Honour. For 5 purposes of my blood sugar, it will assist me if I can know when we're 6 breaking and for how long and whether and how much I should eat during 7 those breaks 8 [The witness takes the stand] 9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning, Mr. Donaldson. We'll sit for 10 an hour and a half and then have a half-an-hour break. So it's more or 11 less the same schedule but we're just starting half an hour early. Does 12 that assist? 13 MR. HANNIS: That does assist, Your Honour. Thank you. 14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Donaldson, this is the final lawyer for 15 the Ayyash Defence, Mr. Hannis. 16 Now, Mr. Hannis, you'll give us a roadmap of where you're going, 17 won't you, and the exhibits you'll be dealing with? 18 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, I will. Briefly, I am going to -- 19 I'm intending to deal primarily with matters related to the Hajj in 2005. 20 I also intend to address some matters related to Mr. Donaldson's methods, 21 and the factors the Trial Chamber should consider in assigning the 22 appropriate weight to his conclusions or beliefs or assumptions relating 23 to the attribution of relevant phones discussed in his report, 24 particularly the PMPs, the four PMPs. 25 The documents I'm relying on are primarily his report, P2026, I Wednesday, 18 October 2017 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20171018_STL-11-01_T_T410_OFF_PUB_EN 3/85 PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Andrew Donaldson –PRH230 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 3 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis 1 believe, .1, I'm sorry. Some of the slides from the PowerPoint 2 presentation, primarily 156 to 189. And some of the items on our 3 Prosecution [sic] queue at 8, 9, 15, 16, and 287 to 307. I probably 4 won't use all of those but that's -- that's a rough approximation. If 5 that assists. 6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Hannis. 7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. 8 WITNESS: ANDREW DONALDSON [Resumed] 9 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: 10 Q. But before I go into that, Mr. Donaldson, I did want to go back 11 and ask you a couple of questions about something that Mr. Aoun was 12 covering with you, and there was a response that I wasn't clear on and I 13 wanted to follow up. I'm talking about a discussion that arose 14 concerning some of the third-party contacts and statements they had made 15 or interviews that had been conducted with him. 16 And at -- this is not the official version, but this is the draft 17 transcript I'm working from. At page 15, line 8, Mr. Aoun was asking you 18 about PRH025 who had spoken about Salim and going on the Hajj. He said 19 he went five years ago, but he did not go before -- but he did go before 20 that twice. 21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Hannis. 22 MR. HANNIS: Yes. 23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What day? 24 MR. HANNIS: Yesterday, Your Honour. Sorry, yesterday. 25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That was the 17th of October. Thank you. Wednesday, 18 October 2017 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20171018_STL-11-01_T_T410_OFF_PUB_EN 4/85 PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Andrew Donaldson –PRH230 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 4 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis 1 MR. HANNIS: Correct. I apologize, Your Honour. 2 Q. And Mr. Aoun put it to you that this appeared to be relevant 3 information that you had not included in your report. Your answer, at 4 line 16 on page 15 was: 5 "If I felt it was highly pertinent and objective and accurate and 6 really helped the process, I would have included it in my report." 7 First of all, I want to ask you what you meant when you said 8 "really helped the process"? What did you mean by that in that context? 9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It sounds a bit like re-examination here, 10 Mr. Hannis. 11 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, it is. I'm just trying to 12 clarify what that meant. What process? 13 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Mr. Hannis. And good morning, 14 Your Honours. The process is getting to the truth. 15 MR. HANNIS: 16 Q. And these Judges are the ones who have that job; right? 17 A. Certainly. 18 Q. And in order to help them do that, wouldn't it be most helpful to 19 give them both sides of the issues and all the information possible? 20 You'd agree with that; right? 21 A. Of course. And I've made my views clear that I would like all of 22 those statements in evidence. But until they're tendered and admitted, 23 there is nothing I can do about that. I accept that. 24 Q. I understand that, Your Honour -- Your Honour. I understand 25 that, Mr. Witness. And actually that is one thing that you and I agree Wednesday, 18 October 2017 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20171018_STL-11-01_T_T410_OFF_PUB_EN 5/85 PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Andrew Donaldson –PRH230 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 5 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis 1 on. 2 You went on to answer a question from Judge Nosworthy, who at 3 line 22, said: 4 "Mr. Donaldson, accuracy I can understand. But pertinence and 5 objectivity, why would you doubt in that regard?" 6 And your answer -- you went on to say: 7 "Yet every single witness is able to remember every phone number 8 where everybody lives, who does what, yet at the same point in every 9 statement: Did Salim have a mobile phone? Every single witness goes 10 exactly the same way." 11 I don't have a lot of time. I'm hoping to finish with you today. 12 I'm sure you and I are in accord with that objective. So I'm not going 13 to go through 19 statements, but I disagree with you. My view of that: 14 That's not an accurate description of all those statements. And I guess 15 you would agree with me, Mr. Donaldson, wouldn't you, that the best way 16 to resolve that conflict or that disagreement between you and me would be 17 for those statements to go in and the Judges could read them all and 18 decide for themselves; right? 19 A. Completely. There is a huge amount of relevant information in 20 those statements. 21 Q. But one other point about this before I move on. Judge Nosworthy 22 said: 23 "Isn't there an element of a double-edged sword ...?" 24 You said, at line 14 on page 16: 25 "There is. And I don't believe -- I don't believe these Wednesday, 18 October 2017 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20171018_STL-11-01_T_T410_OFF_PUB_EN 6/85 PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Andrew Donaldson –PRH230 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 6 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis 1 witnesses have been deceptive ... I think they've just omitted the one 2 important issue." 3 I'm puzzled by that because the one important issue is being a 4 mobile phone with Salim Ayyash, and omitting that would seem to be 5 deceptive.
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