Vol. 749 Wednesday No. 66 6 November 2013

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Introduction: Lord Allen of Kensington ...... 213 Questions Syria: Refugees ...... 213 Carbon Monoxide Detectors ...... 215 Nuclear War: International Conference...... 218 Living Wage...... 220 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill Order of Consideration Motion ...... 222 Defence: Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding Statement...... 227 Energy Bill Report (3rd Day)...... 238 Health: Birth Defects Question for Short Debate...... 284 Energy Bill Report (3rd Day) (Continued) ...... 297

Grand Committee Children and Families Bill Committee (9th Day)...... GC 61

Written Statements...... WS 17 Written Answers ...... WA 41

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Lord Bach (Lab): My Lords, in relation to Jordan House of Lords and what the noble Lord has asked about, the Jordanian Government need particular help because a substantial Wednesday, 6 November 2013. number of refugees in Jordan are actually with host families rather than in refugee camps. This means that 3pm the Jordanian Government need more help because Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Norwich. UNHCR aid is not as forthcoming as it would be in refugee camps. The Jordanian Government need more Introduction: Lord Allen of Kensington money in order that those refugees with host families are adequately looked after, particularly—here I repeat 3.08 pm what the noble Lord who asked the Question said—with Sir Charles Lamb Allen, Knight, CBE, having been created regard to drinking water and the price of it. What special Baron Allen of Kensington, of Kensington in the Royal help, beyond what the Minister has already stated, is Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, was introduced and to be given to Jordan itself because of the particular took the oath, supported by Baroness Jay of Paddington and difficulties that that country has at the present time Lord Bragg, and signed an undertaking to abide by the and because of what we owe to that country ourselves? Code of Conduct. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I have already Syria: Refugees announced that the Government are giving specific Question aid to the Jordanians to support a number of activities. We are well aware that drinking water is a particular 3.13 pm problem. As the noble Lord rightly points out, a number Asked by Lord Selkirk of Douglas of refugees in Lebanon and Turkey, as well as in To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Jordan, are not in refugee camps but have been taken will pursue a dialogue with the governments of in by local families. That is a good thing in many ways Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon and Iraq in order to ascertain but it does of course increase the strain on local the top priorities for those countries with regard to communities. the present and future needs of refugees remaining in those countries who have fled the war in Syria. Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon (LD): My Lords, I declare an interest as the president of UNICEF Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, the situation UK and in that capacity I thank the Government for in Syria is worsening. There are more than 2 million their generosity, not just to UNICEF but also to many refugees in neighbouring countries, which is creating a other charities in helping with the terrible suffering of growing regional crisis. The UK’s total funding for Syria children, who of course suffer most in these circumstances. and the region is now £500 million, the largest total The last case of polio in Syria was 14 years ago, in sum the UK has ever committed to a single humanitarian 1999, but this terrible disease is now taking hold, crisis. This reflects the scale, despair and brutality of especially among the children of the refugee population. the situation. The Prime Minister and the Foreign In past conflicts it has been possible to arrange agreements Secretary regularly raise the issue with their counterparts for immunisation between the warring parties. I wonder from Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon and Iraq, the four whether the Government have pursued this matter countries where refugees are now mainly to be found, with both the Syrian Government, who seem perfectly and they will continue to do so. prepared to do this, and the rebels. Are the Government pursuing this opportunity? Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con): The Minister’s statement is extremely welcome. Does he accept that using aid in a country such as Jordan—for example, to Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, as my noble improve water supplies and sanitation and to supplement friend will be aware, alongside the United Nations the very hard-pressed health provision, education and Security Council resolution on chemical weapons there other basic services—undoubtedly helps to reduce was a United Nations Security Council presidential both tension and the increasing scope for friction statement on humanitarian access. That has not yet between the refugees and the often vulnerable local been fully accepted by the Syrian regime. There are communities who have so generously welcomed them? many difficulties for humanitarian agencies and their staff in getting visas to enter the country and, as he Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we do understand rightly said, there are also difficulties in some of the that. The sheer scale of the number of refugees now in rebel-held areas. Lebanon and Jordan in particular is such that it has the full potential to destabilise their societies and, Baroness O’Loan (CB): My Lords, as I prepare to therefore, their political systems. Of the £500 million go on Saturday to Jordan and the refugee camps, I ask that we have so far committed, £167 million is going to the Minister, bearing in mind that there are in excess the neighbouring countries of Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, of 2.5 million Palestinian and Syrian refugees in Jordan and Iraq and, in addition to humanitarian aid, Britain alone and thanking the Government for the money is providing more than £15 million to support stability and resources they are putting in, whether there is in Lebanon and Jordan, including support for their anything further that we can do in terms of influencing police and armed forces. The UK also recently announced the European Union and United Nations to improve an additional £12 million of support for Jordan, aimed the situation, particularly of refugees seeking to get at keeping essential public services running. out of Syria and into Jordan. 215 Syria: Refugees[LORDS] Carbon Monoxide Detectors 216

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the noble The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Baroness rightly points out that some of the refugees for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell in Jordan are Palestinians who were living in the huge of Beeston) (Con): My Lords, this matter will be discussed refugee camp in Damascus, which I have visited myself, during the Energy Bill debates later today but I can and who have now been forced, for the second time, to announce to the House now that my department will move out to Jordan. The United Kingdom has lobbied be undertaking a formal review of the rules and regulations very hard for other countries to step up to the mark. relating to carbon monoxide alarms in rented homes. We have currently provided more bilateral assistance This will consider the technical questions of how best than any other member state of the European Union. to ensure safety in the home, as well as regulatory At the last G20, we put pressure on other members to mechanisms, given the overlapping regimes of building produce more funds and a further £1 billion was regulations, fire safety and housing standards. pledged. The Russians have contributed only a very tiny amount of humanitarian aid. The amount they Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): I am, of course, have contributed in arms to assist the regime is a great delighted to hear that there will be a review but I hope deal larger. that, in the light of the coroner’s Regulation 28 letter following yet another fatal carbon monoxide poisoning, Lord Wright of Richmond (CB): My Lords— the Government will also consider giving fire and rescue services a statutory role in carbon monoxide Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords— safety, regulation and enforcement, given their good track record on fire alarms. I also ask the Government Lord Jopling (Con): My Lords— to consider how carbon monoxide tracks in buildings. Some of the deaths have occurred among people who The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord have been resident in properties or rooms where the Hill of Oareford) (Con): My Lords, it is the turn of the boiler has not been situated, although the boiler has Labour side. been the source of the carbon monoxide and the source of the deaths. Lord Judd: My Lords, the humanitarian challenge is formidable. Of course, it is not just a matter of relief; it is also a matter of long-term investment in Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I am grateful children—their education and their health—because to the noble Baroness for raising this important matter. they are going to be displaced for a long time to come. I pay tribute to her for everything that she has done to What are the Government doing to face up to the raise this issue over several years. She is right about the immense regional political implications of what has coroner’s Regulation 28 letter that we received following happened in the sense that almost a third of the the tragic death of Mrs Kerr in Manchester. We are population in Jordan will soon be refugees? That is currently considering its recommendations, which include acutely destabilising, and it is the same story in Lebanon, some of those that she has mentioned, and we will with all kinds of dangers for the future in terms of reply, as we are required to do. As to the noble extremism, political disruption and the rest. Can we Baroness’s second question, she is right to emphasise promote international discussions about how to have the risks to tenants in rented properties. In the wider a positive pre-emptive regional approach towards the review that I have just mentioned, we will be looking long-term political issues? at the requirement for landlords to install carbon monoxide detectors. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I think that it may be beyond the capabilities of the United Kingdom Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, there Government to resolve all the problems of the Middle is currently an obligation for rental properties to have East. We are, however, now involved in a range of a gas safety certificate every year. If the compulsory multilateral discussions. Sadly, the Geneva II conference, installation of carbon monoxide monitors is to be which we hoped would take place in November, is introduced, would it not be practical for those monitors unlikely to take place before towards the end of the to be tested at the same time, as people would then year. As the noble Lord knows, tentative dialogues know that it had been done? Further, is it not important with the Iranians are under way, and the Middle East to indicate on the carbon monoxide monitor how long peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians it will work satisfactorily? I have found great variation is, thank goodness, also again getting slowly under in what people tell you when they come about the gas. way. We are engaged on a large number of fronts but, One will say that the battery just needs changing but as the noble Lord knows, the problems are extremely another will say that the sensor stops working after a complex and long-standing. certain number of years. I noticed that whoever installed the carbon monoxide monitor in my home wrote on it Carbon Monoxide Detectors the date when it will definitely need replacing. Question Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My noble friend raises 3.22 pm an interesting point. One of the new steps that the department is proposing as part of its wider review to Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff enhance the safety of people in rented property is to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans ensure that they are properly equipped to ask the right they have to make the installation of carbon monoxide questions about alarms and their longevity. Annual detectors compulsory in all new and rental properties. safety checks are about appliances and flues. The most 217 Carbon Monoxide Detectors[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Nuclear War: International Conference 218 important thing is that appliances are operating properly in 2011-12 there were some 85,000 complaints against because, if they do so, the chance of injury or death is rogue landlords, two-thirds of which related to serious that much more diminished. life-threatening hazards such as dangerous gas and electrical installations? Given savage cuts to the HSE Lord Sugar (Lab): My Lords, the noble Baroness and local authority budgets, how can the Secretary of will of course be aware that some of the regretful State’s new-found zeal for cracking down on rogue deaths that have been caused by carbon monoxide landlords be brought to bear to ensure compliance poisoning in people’s homes is due to a device driven with these vital health and safety regulations? by gas. Does the noble Baroness agree that the utility companies that supply gas should be under a legal Baroness Stowell of Beeston: The noble Lord seems obligation to ensure that the supply and installation in to want it both ways—he wants me to say that we are the homes of their clients are tested and that their going to do more but then questions whether we can premises are safe and, perhaps, retrospectively fit a do more. As I said, a couple of weeks ago we announced CO device free of charge? Of course, they can easily a range of measures to enhance the safety of tenants afford to do so. in all kinds of rented accommodation. Among a range of measures that we will be introducing is guidance for Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Appliances in rented local authorities to help them prosecute rogue landlords properties are subject to an annual requirement for a and press for the maximum possible penalties. From gas safety check. As for the providers of gas pipes, next month the courts will be able to take account of a since April this year the distribution network operators landlord’s assets and not just their income, as at present, have been required by Ofgem to raise awareness and when determining an appropriate fine. reduce the risk of carbon monoxide. So there is now a requirement on those companies as well as the annual safety check on the appliances which is part of existing Nuclear War: International Conference regulations. Question Lord Tope (LD): My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s answer today. Is she aware that in its response to the 3.30 pm recent CLG Select Committee report the Government Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer also agreed with the Electrical Safety Council’s view that all private rented sector properties should be To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they subject to electrical safety tests at least every five intend to attend the international conference in years? Can she say how and when the Government Mexico in February 2014 on the humanitarian impact will ensure that landlords do that, and that such of nuclear war. checks include appliances and are carried out by registered electricians? Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, we have not yet received an invitation to the conference in Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I will have to write to Mexico on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons my noble friend on the specifics of his questions on and have not yet made a decision on whether the UK electrical checks, but I would point him to the wider will attend. We continue to have concerns that the review which is taking place to enhance the safety of initiative would divert attention from the 2010 action all people in rented accommodation. It will cover a plan agreed by states parties to the Nuclear Non- wide range of issues and not just gas, carbon monoxide Proliferation Treaty. or electricity.

Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB): My Lords, are Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD): My there enough warnings on gas stoves that are taken Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply, which is a into tents when people are camping? There have been little more positive than I had feared in that at least it several fatalities. is not a negative. Does he see a problem in that, on the one hand, last April the Prime Minister claimed that Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, the noble Britain had taken the lead in pushing for progress Baroness raises an important point. The Department towards multilateral disarmament while, on the other of Health has been working with the British Standards hand, we have not taken part in the UN open-ended Institution to introduce warning labels on barbecues working group that was set up to try to overcome the and barbecue fuels to warn people of the dangers of 17-year impasse on the Conference on Disarmament, bringing barbecues indoors or into tents. I think that and yesterday, in the UN General Assembly, the UK people are gradually starting to understand the risks voted against resolution L34 to take forward multilateral and dangers of that. nuclear disarmament negotiations—which are exactly the sort of negotiations the Prime Minister called for Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, the last April? How does he think that the rest of the Minister’s announcement is welcome. She will be aware world is viewing us? that we now have some 3.6 million households renting privately in a sector that has hitherto been largely Lord Wallace of Saltaire: As regards attendance at unregulated. Mention has already been made of the a conference that is still four months away, British landlord’s obligations under health and safety legislation. officials have had conversations in Mexico City, Geneva Is she aware of research from Shelter that shows that and New York about whether we may attend. It remains 219 Nuclear War: International Conference[LORDS] Living Wage 220

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, will the very much an open question. Perhaps I may simply say Minister be able to say what attitude the US Government to the noble Baroness that there are a great many are taking to attending the Mexico conference? Could different, and in some ways conflicting, bodies in it possibly be that we are just waiting to see which way which disarmament is now being discussed. These they jump? If so, is that the best way to approach this include the Nuclear Security Summit which will meet matter? again in 2014, the UN Disarmament Commission and the Conference on Disarmament. There have also Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the United been a number of discussions on nuclear-weapon-free States has also not yet taken a decision. My understanding zones. The question of where one puts the priority and is that the other members of the P5 are unlikely to where you think it is most worthwhile to push for attend. I suspect that the considerations of the US development is difficult We hold that the NPT review Administration may not be totally dissimilar from conference of 2015 should remain one of our priorities. those that are concerning the British Government. We also think that there is value in the P5 process, on which Britain has been one of the leaders, and in the Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, would P5-plus process in which the P5 members discuss these the Government consider sponsoring a joint parliamentary issues with India and Pakistan. delegation to attend the conference?

Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab): My Lords, do the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: That thought had not Government agree with the principal conclusion of occurred to me or, as far as I am aware, to anyone else. the Oslo conference that no state and no international If the noble Lord would care to attend, we will consider organisation has the capability to address the consequences his request. of the explosion of a nuclear weapon and, much more worryingly, the view supported by experts that it might Living Wage not be possible to develop such capacities? I hope that Question the Government disagree. If they do, where is the evidence that we have such capabilities? 3.36 pm Asked by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the valuable To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps contribution that the Norwegians and others have they are taking to promote the adoption of the new been making on this whole question of the humanitarian rate of the living wage. and, incidentally, climatic consequences of the explosion of a nuclear weapon are very much something that the Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, the UK Government are taking seriously. We see this as a Government support the living wage and encourage very useful expert contribution. Looking at how, if businesses to pay it when it is affordable and not at the there were to be—heaven forfend—a nuclear explosion, expense of jobs. We recognise that these are challenging we would cope as an international community with times. We applaud companies that have chosen to pay the consequences, is something that is very valuable to higher wages. We too are concerned with low pay. take forward. That is why we have frozen council tax, cancelled the rise in fuel duty, and by 2014-15 will have taken Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD): Does my noble 2.7 million people out of income tax altogether. friend agree that there was very substantial political support for the United Nations resolution on working Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab): My Lords, the on methods of dealing with nuclear disarmament, and living wage is good for the country in terms of wealth in particular that although half of the NATO members creation and saving money on welfare bills; it is good voted in favour of that resolution, the United Kingdom for business, as KPMG and the Resolution Foundation and the P5, with the exception of China, all voted have observed; and it is clearly good for individuals against it? Perhaps I may remind him that the United who have been hit by the cost of living crisis, some of Kingdom has established a substantial record—perhaps whom have had to resort to food banks. Do the the leading record among the P5—for work on specific Government have any understanding of the number actions such as the verification principle that has given of people regularly using food banks who are in full us a great reputation on this issue. We might put that and part-time work? If not, what plans do the Government at risk if we do not recognise the strength of the have to collect this information? pressures from not only the United Nations but many of our allies in this respect. Viscount Younger of Leckie: We see that the right way forward—the only way forward—to achieve sustainable Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, this is an increases in living standards is through focusing on extremely serious area of international security that economic growth and employment. This is exactly what we take very seriously. We are worried about some of the Government are doing, with a particular focus on these conferences where it is easier to pass resolutions SMEs. As we know, 99% of all businesses are SMEs, than to accept that we need, for example, to control: with 14.4 million employees. With changes to the tax the storage of fissile materials; the creation of additional allowance, low-wage workers who have been squeezed fissile material; and the potential trade in fissile material. through inflation and low earnings growth can take This is what the currently blocked fissile material home much more of their income. We have taken cut-off treaty is about, and what the nuclear security 25 million people out of income tax; they have had summit next year will also be concerned with. a cut. 221 Living Wage[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Transparency of Lobbying etc Bill 222

Lord Naseby (Con): My Lords, does my noble friend Viscount Younger of Leckie: I remind the House agree that surely the first priority is to ensure that the that the living wage is a voluntary rate of pay, above minimum wage level is properly implemented across the national minimum wage, proposed by the Living the whole United Kingdom; and that, secondly, the Wage Foundation. It is very much up to employers threshold at which anybody in this country pays tax and employees through their contracts to decide what should rise? It is to the credit of Her Majesty’s Government the rate of pay should be. However, I note the noble that the Chancellor has enabled that level to be raised Lord’s point. in each of the last few budgets. On top of that, does my noble friend recognise that the dreadful situation that we inherited from the Labour Government— Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD): My Lords, does the Minister agree with the Mayor of London, Boris Noble Lords: Oh! Johnson, who said only on Monday that more employers in the capital were recognising the benefits of the Lord Naseby: Noble Lords can say what they like living wage for their workforces by specifically helping over there. We were told by one of their senior Ministers low-paid families to make ends meet, as well as promoting that the cupboard was bare. It is only my right honourable economic dividends for employers and boosting growth friend the Chancellor’s policies that have ensured we and productivity? Does the Minister share the mayor’s get the growth that we are beginning to get now. As I wish to spur more employers on to do the right thing? understand it from my noble friend— Noble Lords: Question! Viscount Younger of Leckie: I certainly share that wish and the mayor has made his views clear. I said Lord Naseby: No, I am sorry; you have to listen to earlier that I also applaud what companies are doing, this. As I understand it, my noble friend is quite clear: provided that they can afford it. But to help households the benefits of the growth that we establish will be for manage the costs of their bills—I have said already all sections of society. that I recognise that there is a squeeze on them—this Viscount Younger of Leckie: My noble friend has Government have already frozen council tax and cancelled made some strong and passionate points and I agree the rise in the fuel duty escalator. We are encouraging with the gist. However, I should say that our key competition and that consumers switch to get the best policy is to support the low-paid through the national deals. Moreover, advice is available from citizens advice minimum wage. It is set at a level that helps as many bureaux and the Money Advice Service. low-paid workers as possible, but without damaging their employment prospects. My right honourable friend Lord Tebbit (Con): My Lords, does my noble friend Vince Cable has asked the Low Pay Commission accept that the first priority of a business is to stay to look at what economic conditions would be needed profitable and in business if it is to employ anyone at to allow the national minimum wage to rise in the all? It would be a bit odd if the wages paid to a worker future by more than current conditions allow, without were based not on his value to the business, but on his having an adverse impact on jobs. various commitments and obligations. Surely that cannot be right. Baroness Wall of New Barnet (Lab): My Lords, I am sure that the noble Viscount is aware of the benefits that the living wage have already demonstrated. He Viscount Younger of Leckie: It is certainly true that referred specifically to SMEs in his response. I advise businesses, particularly small and medium-sized ones, him that many SMEs, particularly those in the engineering need to decide whether they should increase pay from and technical sectors, already pay well above the minimum the national minimum wage to the living wage, but it is wage. They feel that it is the right way forward because very much up to them. Certainly there has been quite a they benefit from the commitment of their employees. lot of negative media coverage about the Labour Party’s policy, in that small and medium-sized businesses Viscount Younger of Leckie: The noble Baroness felt that they would not be able to take more people on makes a good point. Unlike the national minimum if they decided to increase pay from the minimum wage, which aims to maximise support for the low-paid wage to the living wage. without damaging their employment prospects, the living wage is derived from an assessment of households’ living standards. Although that is important, it focuses on household expenditure rather than the income and Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party affordability of companies. Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB): My Lords, does the Order of Consideration Motion Minister accept the recently published findings of the Resolution Foundation in relation to a minimum living wage? Its contention is that if a payment of £8.80 per 3.44 pm hour in the London area or £7.65 per hour outside Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire London were made to all public workers, there would be a net saving to the public purse of no less than To move that the order of the House of 28 October £2 billion per annum? Do the Government accept be vacated, and that it be an instruction to the those figures? Have they made their own calculations, Committee of the Whole House to which the and if not will they now do so and publish them? Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning 223 Transparency of Lobbying etc Bill[LORDS] Transparency of Lobbying etc Bill 224

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] telephone this morning. He is most anxious to take and Trade Union Administration Bill has been part in Report and, as a member of the banking committed that they consider the Bill in the following commission, he has strong and informed views on a order: number of the issues. The week that the Government Clauses 1 and 2, Schedule 1, Clause 3, Schedule 2, have now chosen is the week of the annual Synod of Clauses 4 to 25, Clauses 36 to 39, Clause 26, Schedule 3, the Church of England, over which he has to preside, Clauses 27 to 32, Schedule 4, Clauses 33 to which means that he cannot be present. I urge my 35, Clauses 40 to 44. noble friend to think again.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, I beg to Lord Laming (CB): My Lords, the noble Lord, move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Lord Turnbull, is not yet able to get to the House so he Paper. has asked me to convey his concerns about the scheduling of this stage of the Bill. The colleagues that have Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab): My Lords, by spoken already, like the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, mismanaging the lobbying Bill, the Government are have invested an immense amount of time and energy wrecking the work of the Parliamentary Commission both on the banking commission and on this Bill. It is on Banking Standards, which was set up to reform the a most important Bill and there is a huge amount of culture in the banking industry, by bringing forward work that remains to be done, not least, as previous this Bill early—on 18 November. That is the unanimous speakers have already pointed out, about the way in view of all members of the banking commission, who which it has been changed—though changed, I may have said that they need until the new year to study say, for the better. these government amendments for the simple reason The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, is well respected in that this is an entirely new Bill. This is a Bill that left this House, not least because of his measured tones. the House of Commons 35 pages long. It is now more He asked me to convey his feelings on this subject, but than 160 pages and the government amendments are I fear that I may not be able to do it accurately while four times the size of their original Bill. This morning keeping within the bounds of acceptable parliamentary I spoke to Andrew Tyrie MP, the chairman of the language. Suffice it to say that he is, to put it mildly, commission, who said that if the Government go ahead put out. I hope that the Government will feel that they before due consideration to this increasingly complex are able to look again at this matter because there is and dense legislation, the Parliamentary Commission still much to be done in a great deal of detail and it is on Banking Standards will not be able to carry out the vitally important. mandate that the Government gave it to reform the banking industry. The collective efforts over one year— almost 200 hours of public evidence and 10,000 questions The Lord Bishop of Norwich: My Lords, I rise from —will be wasted. The Government will not only this Bench in the absence of my friend the most be betraying their promise when they established the reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, who commission, but it will be seen and disowned by cannot be in his place, to follow up a little on what the members of the commission for indulging in cynical, noble Lord, Lord Lawson, said. I know that your low, political-level, sharp practice. I ask the Government Lordships have sometimes observed that when these to think again and give due time to the Parliamentary Benches are full, the General Synod must be in session Commission on Banking Standards by bringing this and the Bishops are absconding. We sometimes are, of Bill back in the New Year when it is appropriate. course, but the week after next, the Synod will spend a great deal of time on the new proposals for the Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con): My Lords, as a fellow consecration of women as bishops, and we are hopeful member of the banking standards commission, I agree of progress. with the conclusion reached by the noble Lord, Lord I know that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop McFall, that the Leader of the House should think of Canterbury would be glad not to miss consideration again about this important matter. I have great sympathy on Report of the Banking Reform Bill but will, on this with him. I understand that the parliamentary timetable occasion, have to give the General Synod priority. I has been complicated by the late change of plan on the am sure that your Lordships would not wish him to lobbying Bill and that presents him with a difficulty, abscond, as some of us hope to live to see the day but it would be wholly wrong to put Report of the when there will be women with us on these Benches. I banking Bill in as a stopgap. This is a massively realise that there are diary clashes for us all, but it important Bill. It is a completely different one from would be a great pity if the Archbishop could not play the Bill that emerged from the other place. It is hugely a very full part in our debate here. He would be too larger—about five times—and extremely complex. In modest to say it himself, but I can say it for him: we Committee, a number of noble Lords asked for a would be the poorer without his contribution. particularly long gap between Committee and Report, and I was under the impression that the Government Lord Higgins (Con): My Lords, I think that it would were extremely sympathetic to that. Now they are be wrong to suppose that it is only those who have suddenly putting it forward as a stopgap. been serving with great diligence on the banking That is the main reason for making this objection, commission who are concerned about this matter. The but there is another one. The most reverend Primate size of amendments in relation to the size of the Bill is, the Archbishop of Canterbury cannot be in his place I think, without precedent. It is a very important today because he is abroad, but he was an active matter which should be properly debated on the Floor member of the banking commission. I spoke to him by of the House. 225 Transparency of Lobbying etc Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Transparency of Lobbying etc Bill 226

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab): My Lords, I regret convenient for the opposition Front Bench or, indeed, the fact that the Chief Whip has taken the decision both. So I have decided that the only proper use was to unilaterally to impose business on the House. I have to schedule the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill. make clear that Her Majesty’s Opposition did not agree to the tabling of the banking Bill for consideration I appreciate that those noble Lords who formed on 18 November. It is clear from the conversations that part of the commission—obviously, it no longer exists— we have had with the members of the Joint Committee play a very full and effective part. Committee finished on banking reform that the huge number of amendments on October 23, so we have not jumped in here. It is and truncated timescale run the risk of an important now two weeks later. In the normal run of things, Bill not being taken seriously. The arguments made Report could have been scheduled for today, but we very cogently in the Chamber today demonstrate that. wanted to avoid doing it within the normal time of two weeks. Taking it forward to 18 November gives We recognise that this House is a part-time House— almost a month after the end of Committee. It is not that includes Front-Benchers—and welcome the expertise unusual to schedule after two weeks; it is quite unusual that comes from Members, including Bishops, of course; for it to have been left as long as it has after Committee. it means that Members of the House can keep their I have proposed today that Report should begin nearly interests and remain part-time, so changes to the timetable a full month after the end of Committee. have a profound effect on the work of the House. I ask the noble Baroness the Chief Whip, in these There have been references to the Bill’s being longer. unusual circumstances—that is to say, the fact that It is indeed longer, but that is due to the Government’s yesterday, the whole House agreed that there should having accepted the commission’s proposals. It is because be a pause in consideration of the Transparency of the Government have been responding positively that Lobbying Bill—why, for just one legislative day, the the Bill has grown to meet the recommendations. Government cannot schedule debates on some of the Reference has also been made to colleagues’ availability, many reports that are languishing, waiting to be debated and I note particularly what the right reverend Prelate on the Floor of the House. I well understand the need said. Far be it for me to wish to take the most reverend to deliver the Government’s programme, but I do not Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury away from understand the difference that one day will make. I discussion of important matters at his next weekly look forward to the noble Baroness’s reply and add meeting of the Church, particularly if it is on the that I cannot agree to the change that has been proposed matter of women bishops. By the way, I do not hold to the House, but the House will know that my door the right reverend Prelate to any idea that that meeting always remains open to constructive discussion about will pass a resolution in favour of women bishops. I the forthcoming programme. look on and wait with interest. On a serious point, I know that the most reverend Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con): My Lords, of Primate attended two out of three days. He did as course, I am always sorry to cause concern to Members much as he possibly could to attend two days of of the House in the matter of scheduling of business. Committee. He decided not to speak until late one In this House, as the noble Baroness the Leader of the night, when he was of great assistance in speaking Opposition said, Members are not expected to attend briefly but importantly. Members of the House will full time. I have to observe that many do and have a know what I mean when I say that I did so “to assist tremendous sense of duty to the work they do in the staff”, if I may put it that way, at 10.30 pm. It was scrutinising legislation. It is not a part-time House; we a generous thing to do. I know that he listened assiduously sit full time, but Members clearly have other expertise, and I am sure that he has read Hansard. which may keep them elsewhere on occasion. It is because of that, in scheduling business in this House, This is not in any way a matter of trying to put that we always take care to try to give advance notice. people out on any of the Benches. I assure the House Commonly, we give three and a half weeks notice, absolutely of that. I know that my noble friends Lord which is considerably different from the one week Deighton and Lord Newby have been, and continue to given in another place, where elected, paid politicians be, very involved in discussions off the Floor of the are obviously in a different position. House with those taking part in the Bill. Those started in Committee; they continued after Committee. They As the noble Baroness said, yesterday, a deal was continue now, and I feel that those have been very struck on the Floor of the House to delay part of the constructive discussions. Committee stage of the lobbying Bill. An inevitable consequence of that was that I would have to make I do my best in the way of scheduling. There are some changes to future business; there were two other legislative options. The noble Baroness, the Leader Committee days for the lobbying Bill which had to be of the Opposition, asks why we do not have more vacated. I looked at all the available legislative business. debates. This House scrutinises legislation. I have offered This House is justly proud of the scrutiny that it gives a considerable number of days to the Committee to legislation. Of course, I looked at the availability of Office—indeed, last week I was thanked for so doing. the opposition Front Bench spokesmen for that business; Two days of government time have been given over to I always do. What I advertised today meets what I committee dates this Session. That was what the always try to do in looking at the availability of Committee Office asked for in the first place, and we opposition Front Bench spokesmen and making good have fulfilled that commitment. Last week, the Committee use of government time. I had other options available Office was not able to take up the full offer of the time to me, it is true, but each of those options would either that we gave them, but we had extremely good debates have been a worse use of time for the House, less last Wednesday. 227 Transparency of Lobbying etc Bill[LORDS] Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding 228

[BARONESS ANELAY OF ST JOHNS] The increase in the cost of this project does not come This House needs to do what it does best, to use as a surprise. When I announced in May last year that time efficiently and effectively for scrutiny of legislation. I had balanced the defence budget, I did so having There is other legislation available which could be already made prudent provision in the equipment plan scrutinised on that day. I say to the Leader of the for a cost increase in the carrier programme above the Opposition that my door is open to the opposition £5.46 billion cost reported in the major projects review Chief Whip if he wishes to discuss the availability of 2012, in recognition of the inevitability of cost-drift his Front-Bench spokesperson, to look again at those in a contract that was so lopsided and poorly constructed. dates for legislation to be scheduled. I also made provision for the cost of nugatory Motion agreed. design work on the “cats and traps” system for the carrier variant operation and for reinstating the ski-jump needed for STOVL operations. At the time of the Defence: Aircraft Carriers and UK reversion announcement, I said that these costs could Shipbuilding be as much as £100 million. I am pleased to tell the Statement House that they currently stand at £62 million, with the expectation that the final figure will be lower still. 3.59 pm Given the commercially sensitive nature of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry negotiations with the Aircraft Carrier Alliance, I was of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): My Lords, not able publicly to reveal those additional provisions with the leave of the House, I shall repeat a Statement in our budget, since to do so would have undermined made in another place by my right honourable friend our negotiating position with industry. However, the the Secretary of State for Defence. The Statement is as MoD informed the National Audit Office of the follows. provisions, and it is on that basis that it reviewed and “With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to reported on our 10-year equipment plan in January make a Statement on the future shipbuilding programme this year. I am therefore able to confirm to the House for the Royal Navy, and in particular the aircraft that the revised cost of the carriers remains within the carrier project. As the House will know, the previous additional provision made in May 2012 in the equipment Government entered into a contract with the Aircraft plan, and that as a result of this prudent approach the Carrier Alliance, an industrial consortium led by BAE defence budget remains in balance with the full cost of Systems, to build two 65,000-tonne aircraft carriers—the the carriers provided for, and that the centrally held largest ships in the Royal Navy’s history. contingency of more than £4 billion in the equipment In SDSR 2010, the incoming Government, faced plan that I announced remains, 18 months after it was with the challenge of dealing with a £38 billion black announced, unused and intact. hole in the MoD budget, were advised that under the In addition to renegotiating the target price and the terms of the contract it would cost more to cancel the terms of the contract, we have agreed with the Aircraft carriers than to build them. The Public Accounts Carrier Alliance to make changes to the governance of Committee subsequently described that contract as the project to better reflect the collaborative approach “not fit for purpose” and identified in particular the to project management that the new cost-sharing misalignment of interests between the MoD and the arrangements will induce, and to improve the delivery contractors, manifested in a sharing arrangement for of the programme. The project remains on schedule, cost overruns that sees, at best, 90p of every £1 of with sea trials of HMS Queen Elizabeth in 2017 and additional cost paid by the taxpayer and only 10p paid flying trials with the F35 commencing in 2018. by the contractor as the root cause of the problem. I agree with the PAC’s analysis. In 2012 I instructed Overall, this new arrangement with industry will my department to begin negotiations to restructure result in savings of hundreds of millions of pounds the contract to better protect the interests of the to taxpayers, and I pay tribute to the team of taxpayer and to ensure the delivery of the carriers to a MoD officials, led by the Chief of Defence Matériel, clear time schedule and at a realistic and deliverable who have worked hard over a long period of time to cost. Following 18 months of complex negotiations deliver this result. with industry, I am pleased to inform the House that In reviewing the carrier project, we have also reviewed we have now reached heads of terms with the alliance the wider warship-building programme, within the that will address directly the concerns articulated by context of the so-called terms of business agreement, the PAC and others. or TOBA, between the MoD and BAE Systems, signed Under the revised agreement, the total capital cost in 2009 by the previous Government. As the House to the Ministry of Defence of procuring the carriers will know, we remain committed to the construction will be £6.2 billion, a figure arrived at after a detailed of the Type 26 global combat ship to replace our analysis of costs already incurred and future costs and current Type 23 frigates, but the main investment risks over the remaining seven years to the end of the approval for the Type 26 programme will not be made project. Crucially, under the new agreement, any variation until the design is more mature, towards the end of above or below that price will be shared on a 50:50 next year. There is, therefore, a challenge in sustaining basis between government and industry until all the a skilled shipbuilding workforce in the United Kingdom contractor’s profit is lost, meaning that interests are between the completion of construction of the blocks now properly aligned, driving the behaviour change for the second carrier and the beginning of construction needed to see this contract effectively delivered. of the Type 26 in 2016. 229 Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding 230

Under the terms of the TOBA, without a shipbuilding vessels based in the port will be at its highest level since order to fill that gap, the MoD would be required to the early 1960s, sustaining some 11,000 jobs in total in pay BAE Systems for shipyards and workers to stand the dockyards and related activities. To support this idle, producing nothing, while their skill levels faded. level of activity, I can announce today an investment Such a course would add significant risk to the effective of more than £100 million over the next three years in delivery of the Type 26 programme, which assumes a new infrastructure in Portsmouth to ensure that the skilled workforce and a working shipyard to deliver it. carriers can be properly maintained and supported. Therefore, to make best use of the labour force and the The chair of the Public Accounts Committee has dockyard assets for which we would anyway be paying, previously described the carrier programme as, I can announce today that we have signed an agreement “one of the most potent examples of what can go wrong with big in principle with BAE Systems to order three offshore projects in the public sector”. patrol vessels for the Royal Navy, based on a more That is the legacy that this Government inherited: a capable variant of the River Class and including a carrier contract that was “not fit for purpose” and a landing deck able to take a Merlin helicopter. TOBA that would have required the MoD to pay BAE Subject to main gate approval in the coming months, Systems to do nothing while our shipbuilding skills these vessels will be constructed on the Clyde from late base faded away. These announcements today put that 2014, with the first vessel expected to come into service legacy behind us; secure the future of British warship in 2017. The marginal cost of these ships, over and building; set the aircraft carrier project on a new path, above the payments the MoD would have to make with clear alignment between industry and the MoD; anyway to keep the yards idle, is less than £100 million, and deliver important new capability in the form of which will be funded from budget held within the OPVs for the Royal Navy. I commend this Statement equipment plan to support industrial restructuring. to the House”. The order is good news for the Clyde, sustaining My Lords, that concludes the Statement. around 1,000 jobs as the carrier construction work reaches completion, securing the skills base there and 4.11 pm ensuring the ability to build the Type 26 frigates in due Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister course, while turning the MoD’s liabilities under the for repeating the Statement made in the other place by TOBA into valuable capability for the Royal Navy. the Secretary of State for Defence. Turning to the final part of this Statement, the House It is a Statement not entirely devoid of party political will be aware that this morning BAE Systems has points. The first part of it—presumably, therefore, the announced plans to rationalise its shipbuilding business more important part of it, in the Secretary of State’s as the surge of work associated with the carriers comes eyes—continues the argument over the alleged £38 billion to an end. Regrettably, that will mean 835 job losses black hole and the cost of the aircraft carriers. It is across Filton, the Clyde and Rosyth, and the closure of only towards the end of the Statement that the Secretary the company’s shipbuilding yard in Portsmouth. The of State refers to decisions that will result in hard-working loss of such a significant number of jobs is, of course, people losing their jobs, with the consequent impact regrettable, but was always going to be inevitable as on families and local economies, which in the eyes of the workload associated with the carrier build comes most will be the significant part of the Statement, to an end. I pay tribute to the men and women on the along with its associated implications for the United Clyde and in Portsmouth who have contributed so Kingdom shipbuilding industry. much to the construction of the Royal Navy’s warships, I would like to take this opportunity to express our including, of course, the Queen Elizabeth class carriers. appreciation of the work and contribution made by all BAE Systems has assured me that every effort will be those in our shipbuilding industry. My understanding made to redeploy employees and that compulsory is that there have already been extensive discussions redundancies will be kept to a minimum. The company between BAE Systems and the trade unions representing is now engaged in detailed discussions with the unions the workforce, seeking to work together to address the representing the workforce in Portsmouth and on the difficult situation that has arisen. All too often that is Clyde. not the approach adopted when reductions in the size of a workforce have to be considered. I know that the loss of shipbuilding capability will The news of the job losses will obviously be a major be a harsh blow to Portsmouth, and the Government blow. Clearly, the loss of the capacity at Portsmouth to and the city council, together with Southampton, are build ships will be keenly felt, although a repair and in discussion about a package to support the regeneration maintenance capability is being retained in the city. It of employment opportunities in the area. As part of is vital that we keep the skills needed to sustain our these discussions, I can announce that Admiral Rob United Kingdom shipbuilding capacity, and the Stevens, former chief executive of the British Marine announcement of the decision to build three offshore Federation, will chair a new maritime forum to advise patrol vessels in the gap between the completion of the the Solent LEP on its maritime vision. major work on the two aircraft carriers and the build-up Despite the end of shipbuilding activity, Portsmouth of work on the Type 26 destroyers is welcome. The will remain one of two home ports for the Navy’s retention of our shipbuilding capability is vital to our surface fleet and will continue to undertake the vital country, the defence of the United Kingdom and the support and maintenance work that sustains our most long-term future of the UK shipbuilding industry. complex warships, including the Type 45 destroyers The Statement indicated that the two aircraft carriers and, of course, the aircraft carriers. Indeed, with both will be based at Portsmouth, leading to the largest carriers based in Portsmouth, the tonnage of naval level of tonnage of naval vessels at that location for a 231 Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding[LORDS] Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding 232

[LORD ROSSER] the United Kingdom? None of us wants to see that great many years. Does that mean that a decision has but we need to know what plans he has for all eventualities. been made that both aircraft carriers will also be fully We must retain a sovereign shipbuilding capability. operational? The Statement refers to the revised agreement Whatever difficulties we experience, this country is for the carriers and states that, a proud maritime nation. We have a proud and dedicated “any variation above or below that price will be shared on a 50:50 Navy, serviced by a proud and dedicated workforce. basis between government and industry until all the contractor’s We must maintain that across the United Kingdom profit is lost”. and retain the ability to build the warships we will need to defend our nation, protect our interests across By how much more does the current cost of £6.2 billion the world and keep us secure. have to increase before all the contractor’s profit is lost and the Government presumably pay for 100% of any further cost increase? Can the Minister give an assurance 4.17 pm that there have been no adjustments to the defence Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I also pay tribute equipment programme in order to continue with the to the employees of BAE Systems and their families. I construction of the two carriers and retain the more congratulate them on the excellent warships that have than £4 billion centrally held contingency sum in the been built. The job losses are obviously bad news and equipment plan? our thoughts are, as the noble Lord said, with those Since the Secretary of State appeared to consider affected and their families. It comes as we pass the peak the alleged financial black hole and the cost of the of naval shipbuilding on the carriers. We have worked aircraft carriers to be the issue of most importance, I closely with the company to manage the impact of the will respond. As far as the alleged £38 billion is concerned, losses. which is the Secretary of State’s unverified figure, it Our priority is to do all we can to secure jobs for assumes that everything which was then on the shopping people in Portsmouth and on the Clyde. We will set list for the many years ahead was actually proceeded with, out how we intend to do this once the company has set and it is dependent on the budget growth assumptions out its plans. We are in very close touch with BIS to made. The 2009 National Audit Office report concluded discuss the opportunities. As the Statement said, BAE that the size of the gap was highly sensitive to the Systems has assured us that it will look first to deploy budget growth assumptions used and that if the defence members of the staff affected to other areas of its budget remained constant in real terms, the gap would business. be £6 billion over the 10-year period. The noble Lord touched on the £38 billion black hole, and we can debate this. The Secretary of State, in On the issue of whether the contract could have been the Statement in the other place, has offered to write cancelled by the present Government had they wanted to the shadow Secretary of State. I am very happy to to, the National Audit Office report said: write to the noble Lord, or send a copy of the same “The Department … considered cancellation, which was feasible letter to the noble Lord, setting out the position on the and offered significant medium-term savings. It concluded that £38 billion black hole—the difference between the this would have been unaffordable in the short term”. available budget and the commitments that were entered into. That statement does not fully square with the Secretary of State’s bald assertion that he had been advised that The noble Lord asked about BAE Systems and the under the terms of the contract, it would cost more to trade unions. I can confirm that serious discussions cancel the carriers than to build them. The Government are taking place at the moment. He asked if both proceeded with the carriers because they felt that it carriers will be fully operational. That will be for the was in the national interest. SDSR in 2015 to decide. My own personal view is that I would very much like to see both carriers operational, The NAO report also said that the contract was as the Secretary of State said in the other place, so that negotiated by the then defence commercial director, when one carrier goes in for refit the other is available with the terms of the contract typical of those in other and can use the crew from the other. However, that is large defence contracts. Whether any contractor would not for this coalition to make a decision on. The noble have been prepared to take on such a major contract Lord asked if I could give a guarantee that there will of the kind involving the construction of the state-of- be no further rises. I cannot give that guarantee. As the the-art carriers on any other basis than the cost overruns Statement said, any increase will be shared on a 50:50 being divided 90% to the Government and 10% to the basis. contractor, is a debatable point. It is a different situation The noble Lord welcomed the OPVs. They will be now that we are well into construction and final costs used for fishery protection, counterpiracy and, among for these state-of-the-art carriers are rather more certain. other things, protection of the overseas territories. There has been a lot of conjecture about the role The noble Lord asked me about Scotland. I can say, that the politics of the Scottish referendum may have first, that decisions were taken in Britain’s—the United played in the decision to keep shipbuilding on the Kingdom’s—best interests. There is no politics in this: Clyde. It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm it is absolutely in Britain’s best interests. He asked that the decisions today were taken on the basis of about safeguards if Scotland leaves the United Kingdom. what is in Britain’s best interests, maintaining the We are not planning on that happening. future of our shipbuilding industry and our country’s Final decisions on the build location have not yet defence. Could the noble Lord also outline what been made on the Type 26 and it would be speculation safeguards are in place if Scotland does vote to leave at this point. Should Scotland decide to separate from 233 Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding 234 the United Kingdom we are sure that companies there indeed, the contracts in my view and that of many experts, would continue to make strong bids for UK defence were flawed because the contractor only has to pick up contracts. However, they would then be competing for 10% of the overrun. The Ministry of Defence and the business in an international market and would be eligible Secretary of State must be complimented on negotiating to bid only for contracts that were open for competition for the overrun costs to be spread at 50/50 between from outside the UK. They would no longer be eligible both. However, I note in the repetition of the Secretary to bid for these contracts that are subject to exemptions of State’s speech that the arrangement is to go on until from EU procurement rules to protect essential national the contractor’s profit is lost overall. I think we need security interests and are therefore placed or competed some more meat regarding how that profit is to be within the United Kingdom. I can also say that, with calculated, because there are many ways of calculating the exception of the world wars, we have not built a what a profit is and not much was said about that in warship outside of the United Kingdom and we do the Statement. not intend to start now. Once we get rid of the blame element we must ask, The UK has a number of commercial yards involved as the noble Lord, Lord West, asked, whether we need in the building of military warships which have been the carriers. We have exchanged views on this before. involved in the building of these carriers. It is recognised There are people who say that in an era of conflict that these yards would need additional investment to marked by counterinsurgency, terrorism and cyberwarfare, enable them to participate in the building of the carriers are not quite the necessity that they have been Type 26. in the past. My first question to the Minister is whether I hope that I have covered all the noble Lord’s the saga of carriers supports the GOCO—government- questions but if I have not, I will certainly write owned contractor-operated—arrangements we are to him. suggesting should go into procurement. The Chief of the Defence Staff gave an interview on 3 November in 4.22 pm which he said he wants the Armed Forces to be Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, I am available in international crises such as striking firemen, saddened but not surprised by the tone of this foot and mouth, and intervention in terrorist heartlands. announcement. My main reason for that is that there How do the carriers and the F-35Bs fit into that is not a single mention of strategic or operational scenario? requirements. My noble friend Lord Rosser mentioned Finally, turning to the three offshore patrol vessels, that the Statement said that the Government looked at we are told that the marginal costs will be less than this and asked whether it would cost more to cancel £100 million; what guarantees are there? the carriers than to build them. I would absolutely hope that the reason we build something like a carrier Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, we do need these is that we need them for our nation’s security, which carriers, as I said to the noble Lord. On the question we do. There is no reflection of that anywhere in the about GOCO, as the Statement said, the chair of the Statement, or of the sovereign requirement for a Public Accounts Committee has described the carrier shipbuilding capability. We do not build ships for programme as one of the most potent examples of admirals to play with in the bath; there is actually a what can go wrong with big projects in the public requirement for them. That is why we do it. Was there sector. We need to change this and we feel that a was any discussion in the National Security Council, change of procurement is necessary. We will all have a of any length—I would like to know how long, if the chance to discuss this when the Bill comes to this Minister can tell me—about the strategic requirement House later this year. As for the operational use of the for a sovereign shipbuilding capability within this country? carriers, they are very flexible ships, they have full It is widely understood that the 19 escorts, which is all strike capability and they can also be used for we have, are too few in number. Therefore, we will humanitarian aid and the use of Special Forces. My hopefully at some stage start to build more. Is one noble friend asked what guarantee there is on the building stream in Scotland enough to cover that? I do OPVs. The deal secured today is for a fixed price. not think that it is. Has this been debated and looked at? It certainly was not touched upon in this paper. Lord Martin of Springburn (CB): My Lords, I have Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, we must face up to no need to tell the Minister that closures and redundancies the fact that the coalition Government inherited a are soul-destroying, not only for the workers, but for much smaller Navy from the noble Lord’s Government. their families and the communities they live in. On the On the operational requirements, the First Sea Lord specific point of redundancies, can I have an assurance came to see me this morning and has offered to brief that those who have been taken on as apprentices will Peers on how he sees these carriers being used. I quite be entitled to complete their apprenticeships with the agree with the noble Lord, Lord West, that we need company? the carriers. They are built to be used. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I cannot answer Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD): My Lords, when the noble Lord’s question about apprentices—it was the cost of building two new aircraft carriers is set to not in my brief—but we have been assured by the rise by £800 million to £6.2 billion, Harry Truman’s company that it will do everything in its power to find adage, “The buck stops here”, is bound to be inverted. alternative work for those made redundant, both on We have heard this in recent exchanges. The coalition the Clyde and in Portsmouth. As the Statement said, Government blame the previous Labour Government; we are investing a lot of money in Portsmouth and we 235 Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding[LORDS] Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding 236

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I welcome my hope that there will be jobs in the support bases for noble friend’s support for the fleet and for Vanguard’s some of those being made redundant. This is an area successor. As regards manpower, the Royal Navy attaches that the Government, BAE Systems and the trade a great deal of importance to this, in particular to get unions are all talking about very seriously. the right people with the right skills. The Navy will need an extra 2,000 people for its expanding fleet over the next five to 10 years. We are very grateful to the Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab): My Lords, I welcome United States Navy and the US Marine Corps, which the three offshore patrol vessels. This is exactly what have been especially helpful in training our people was envisaged when the carrier contract was first preparing for the carriers; whether they are training negotiated, in order to ensure the continuity of a pilots, deck crew, or on air direction or engineering, strategic asset for this country. Thereafter, I cannot be they have been very helpful. Finally, my noble friend so generous. May I correct the misapprehension that asked about Appledore, on which I will write to him. has been put about that the carrier cost doubled? The original cost was more than £4 billion when the contract was signed. There was an additional £1.8 billion because, Lord Dannatt (CB): My Lords, the last question quite correctly, the Government decided, when the was on the increase in the size of the fleet in manpower recession hit us, that it should be delayed for two years. terms that would be required if both carriers come into So when the coalition Government came in, the cost service and the three OPVs are fully manned. I welcome was actually £5.9 billion. That has now risen to £6.2 billion, that and I do not want to get into that argument at all. part of which was due to the Government’s mistaken However, the previous Government and the present belief, under the last Secretary of State, that they Government took major decisions which affected could somehow fit “cats and traps” over the weekend equipment and manpower in the Armed Forces, and by some welder doing a “homer” and getting it cheaply. priority in big handful terms has been given to equipment. Of course, it cost £60 million. Therefore where savings have had to be found they Secondly, and finally, the Statement is curiously have had to be found in manpower. Most of those bereft of any strategic sense of what this country savings have been found within our land forces—noble needs. The contract was signed to give continuity and Lords will recognise that I would say that, wouldn’t I? retention of skills so that this country would have not I know that the Minister cannot give a guarantee or only jobs but a major industrial and defence strategic even half a guarantee in answering this question, but asset. All I have to say is, if the Government believe will he ensure that if there is to be an increase in the that they can constitute a future strategic basis purely fleet in manpower terms, which I welcome, it will not on the basis of the intrinsic contractual cost of any be at the cost of further reductions in our land forces, given contract, I fear for the long term. If the Government given that our Army is striving very hard to meet the continue in that way we may well end up sending our 20% reduction in its regular size by 2020? Will he also carriers—if they are built—to repair in Korea. You ensure that in future discussions with the Treasury, can win the minutes in all of these things and disastrously argument is made most fiercely for an uplift in the lose the hours. I hope that the tenor of this Statement defence budget in order to pay for the extra people, is not one that permeates the whole of the Government’s and that it is not another opportunity cost of one thinking on strategic defence issues. service against another? We cannot do that and remain credible on the world stage. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, that is not the case at all. We have secured a great many jobs upon the Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the noble Lord Clyde, and the future of the British shipbuilding industry makes a very good point; the increase in numbers goes is very secure. As regards the costs, we could debate right the way across the Royal Navy—submarines, this all afternoon, but the delays added considerably aircraft carriers and all the other ships—but we will to the cost of the carriers. The decision to have the not reduce the size of the Army just to provide extra “cats and traps” was not made over the weekend; we personnel for the Royal Navy. gave a great deal of consideration to it, but then made the decision to revert to the stowable version, which the previous Government had decided on. Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab): My Lords, political point-scoring is, I suppose, inevitable in a forum like this, but it is unedifying when hundreds of Lord Burnett (LD): My Lords, I welcome the fact people are losing their jobs and there are families who that the fleet is set to grow, with not just aircraft will be in real distress this evening. Will the Minister carriers but Type 26 frigates and offshore patrol vessels, tell us what discussions there have been with the which is good news, but also with the four submarines Scottish Government about what assistance will be that are the successors to Trident and which I strongly given to the workforce on the Clyde who will lose jobs support. The naval service will need in excess of 1,000 despite the new vessels? I welcome the decision to additional trained personnel to man these vessels. Will subscribe to these new vessels on the Clyde, but the my noble friend assure the House that the Government Minister should take it into account that all of us in understand this and that steps will be taken to increase Scotland are also heartbroken about the decision to the strength of the Royal Navy to cope with these end shipbuilding in Portsmouth. It is a historic dockyard demands? Will he write to me about the consequences and it is tragic that we are coming to this decision to of this Statement for Appledore Shipbuilders in north end shipbuilding there. Does the Minister agree with Devon, which is in my former constituency? me that it is absurd that this debate should be taking 237 Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 238 place at a time when we have the diversion of separating Referring to what my noble friend Lord West said, Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom, which surely the first priority in defence is to establish what will finish shipbuilding on the Clyde? the threat is and what contribution we want to make towards international security. Having established that, Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, personally, I hope what is necessary to do that? As Libya illustrated very that that will not happen. On the noble Baroness’s well, every conceivable analysis of the future suggests point about it being very political, I obviously deplore that we are going to need flexibility and free-standing that, but it is inevitable. As far as redundancies are platforms from which operations can take place, and concerned, the Government, BAE Systems, and the the carriers are absolutely indispensible to that future. trade unions are all, as I said, working as hard as they Will the Minister please accept that he will have widespread can to find new jobs for those personnel. support in this House if, having made what I believe to Lord Lee of Trafford (LD): My Lords, when I was a be the absolutely right decision to go ahead with the Defence Minister in the 1980s, I remember being told carriers as a priority in defence policy, that is pursued by officials that we could build all the naval requirements with every possible commitment? in the Vickers yard at Barrow alone. In other words, we have had overcapacity, sadly, in our naval yards for Lord Astor of Hever: First, I quite agree with the years, and it still applies. I have three specific questions. noble Lord that we owe a long-term debt of loyalty to First, the Statement does not indicate the cost of the Portsmouth. Portsmouth will maintain its proud maritime three offshore patrol vessels; it is a rather shrouded heritage as the home of the Royal Navy surface fleet figure. Will the Minister give the cost of the three and the centre of BAE Systems’ ship support and OPVs? Secondly, following the point raised by the maintenance business. The long-term future of noble Lord, Lord West, and given that there is a Portsmouth as a naval base for the Royal Navy’s most £4 billion retention in the contingency reserve, would complex warships will be in undertaking vital support it not have made sense to build one more Daring class work for the fleet. This will include support and Type 45 destroyer, as we are desperately short of maintenance for the new carriers and the Type 45 escort vessels? Thirdly, my noble friend the Minister destroyers—the most advanced warships ever built for touched on the humanitarian possibilities of the new the Royal Navy. I can add that Portsmouth and carriers. Will he give an indication of the medical Southampton are also taking part in the second wave facilities aboard the new carriers, in particular the of the City Deals programme and have been working number of new operating theatres that will be available closely with the Government to agree an ambitious for potential humanitarian and evacuation relief? deal for the area which will boost growth and jobs in the local economy. We expect to be able to conclude Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, we have provisionally that deal shortly. I am grateful for the noble Lord’s agreed a firm price of £348 million with BAE Systems support for the carriers, and I will certainly do everything for the supply of three OPVs, inclusive of initial spares possible to ensure that that work continues successfully. and support. The cost of building these vessels and their initial support is entirely contained within provision Energy Bill set aside to meet the Ministry of Defence’s obligation Report (3rd Day) for redundancy and rationalisation costs. My noble friend Lord Lee of Trafford asked about 4.42 pm the humanitarian position; I can confirm that the Relevant documents: 5th, 6th, 9th and 11th Reports carriers would be able to assist in evacuation. They from the Delegated Powers Committee. each have an operating theatre and a huge flight deck that would take 10 Chinooks while four Chinooks Clause 122: Designation of statement could operate concurrently. I hope that that answers my noble friend’s question. Amendment 92A Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, in the 1960s and 1970s Moved by Lord Whitty I had the privilege of representing in the other place 92A: Clause 122, page 92, line 11, at end insert “including the part of the community of Portsmouth, including the strategy and objectives to be designated in relation to fuel poverty naval base and dockyard. I remind the House that it is under section 136 of this Act” impossible to record adequately what this country owes Portsmouth. It has been in the front line in the Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, we now come to an defence of the realm for many, many decades. It is, issue which concerns the final impact of the whole after all, the home of HMS “Victory”, and that in superstructure of energy policy on the lives of millions itself says something about it. of people, because we are dealing here with the issue I put it to the Minister that it is not just a matter of of fuel poverty. going through the normal routine of ministerial I shall speak also to Amendment 92B. These two Statements, assuring everybody that there will be amendments seek to insert a reference to fuel poverty consultations and that the city council has been consulted, into the section of the report which deals with the and so on. This nation owes a tremendous loyalty and statement of policy for energy. When we think about tribute to the people of Portsmouth, and it should be a it, it is very odd that that reference is not already there. priority of all the Government and those they are Energy policy has economic objectives and security associated with to make sure that a closely knit community and environmental aspects, but also a very important such as this does not carry a disproportionate burden social aspect that should appear in the statement. My as a result of the policies that are being followed. first two amendments in this group address that issue. 239 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 240

[LORD WHITTY] that forced Chris Huhne to abandon Warm Front. I Amendment 104C is, in a sense, more substantive, also know that there are attacks on Ed Davey and the along with the amendments in the name of my noble DECC position which are now expressed in terms of friend Lord O’Neill. They relate to the one clause in removing green taxes, but one of the items that is the Bill that really deals with fuel poverty—Clause 136. described as a green tax is actually an allocation to However, it is also important that we ensure that fuel help the fuel poor and to tackle the problems of fuel poverty features in any statement of policy on energy poverty. There is talk that the Government believe that in the future. that should come no longer from consumer bills, but Before I go any further, I should declare a small from general taxation. But the first thing the Government interest in that I am the chair of a small charity which did was to abolish the scheme which was paid for by conducts research into fuel poverty and energy efficiency. general taxation. Can the Minister let us know what she thinks is now the prospect of HM Treasury agreeing It is actually a bit depressing that right up to Clause to a new major scheme funded by taxation to address 136 we cover almost every aspect of the energy market fuel poverty? and do not mention fuel poverty at any point. Fuel poverty is the inability of millions of our fellow citizens Of course, the Government do have some money. A to heat their own homes to a minimum standard of little remarked fact about the latest developments over comfort. It is also true, I regret to say, that Clause 136 the past few years on energy prices is that one of the was introduced by the Government at only a very beneficiaries has been HM Treasury, with VAT on late stage in the Commons procedure, almost the last energy prices and on a lot of the so-called green taxes stage, and received virtually no consideration. The policy and, of course, with the VAT consequences of introducing statement which backed it up following the Commons the carbon floor price. The estimate is that upwards of procedure—the blue document which the Government £4 billion is going out of higher energy prices into the issued—set out aspects of their fuel poverty strategy. coffers of the Treasury and not one penny of that has yet been allocated to addressing the acute problems of The Government have come to this a bit late, in any fuel poverty. case. The first period of this Government was a pretty disgraceful one, when they cut back on efforts to help I accept also that the Government have done one bring millions of households out of fuel poverty. The other thing: they have introduced a warm homes discount Warm Front programme, which was taxpayer-funded to override the tariff so that there is a cut in the energy and treated the homes of 200,000 low-income households bills of the fuel poor. However, that is not a solution. every year, was first cut and then abolished, although It is a welcome cushion for those people but it does parallel schemes still exist in Scotland, Wales and not tackle the basic problem. The Government have Northern Ireland. The Government also cut back on not only dropped or seriously curtailed all previous the decent homes expenditure for improving the stock energy-efficiency programmes, but also, during the in the social housing sector. They also made clear at a course of this Bill, rejected propositions from myself pretty early stage that the aim to eliminate and eventually and others that we should try to get a structure of abolish fuel poverty was being abandoned. This aim, tariffs which help the fuel poor. set out originally in the Warm Homes and Energy In Committee, they rejected my proposition of a Conservation Act, had been pursued by the previous standing charge and removal of discrimination against Government with growing difficulty over the past few people who pay by prepaid meter, which hits the fuel years as global oil and gas prices rose. Not until this poor particularly, or having any structure of tariffs Bill and the document to which I have already referred which favours the low-paid and the fuel poor. All were was that abandonment formally acknowledged. rejected by the Government in Committee and in The Government also closed the CERT scheme— another place. It is also true that one of the effects of previously known as EEC—which placed an obligation the Prime Minister’s intervention in this—the so-called on the supply companies to provide energy efficiency simplification of tariffs, aspects of which I approve improvements and was skewed towards the fuel poor. of—has led to a number of supply companies dropping Admittedly, the Government have replaced that with their specialised tariffs directed to the special needs of the ECO provision, which is reflected in this Bill and pensioners, who form a substantial proportion of the the earlier legislation, but the ECO is supposed to do a fuel poor. multitude of things. It is supposed to replace Warm I accept that it is not entirely DECC’s fault but the Front and CERT, but actually the feedback we get—and net effect of all this is to aggravate a seriously dreadful I am sure the Government get—from the ground is problem in our society. From about 2005, rising energy that it is not achieving anywhere near its targets. The costs have made it very difficult to make a dent in fuel feedback from the supply companies, the installation poverty. I know that Chris Huhne came to government companies, the insulation companies, consumer groups, in the first instance wanting to look at a new strategy. fuel poverty campaigners and the Government’s own Indeed, it is no secret, because someone told the press fuel poverty advisory group is that what is supposed to that at one point he approached me as a former be conducted under the ECO is less in volume and Minister in this area to conduct an assessment. I was more expensive per item than under the previous flattered and surprised, and slightly tempted, by the system. proposition. But eventually I found out that DECC I am not blaming everybody in the Government. I was under pressure to redefine fuel poverty so that it am not even blaming every DECC Minister, because I was not such a problem or such a requirement on know DECC has fought quite hard on this front from government energy policy. I rejected the approach on time to time. I know that it was Her Majesty’s Treasury that basis, as did others, because it was clear that 241 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 242 whatever happened and however you defined fuel poverty, as they are, because they do not of themselves present it is a big number which is going up under present an obligation but they indicate a commitment to tackle world conditions. this issue. I hope that the Government will also accept I am glad that Professor John Hills took on this something like my third amendment, so that we can task. He has produced a very solid document in terms start making it clear to the rest of Government and to of strategy for tackling energy fuel poverty, very little the population out there that this Government do care of which appears in the Government’s blue book. He about fuel poverty, are prepared to do something produced a new definition of fuel poverty, which has about it, and will do so as rapidly as they can in the some merits and addresses some of the problems of context of the big reform of the energy markets. I beg the previous definition, but in my view is not adequate. to move. It has knocked a few million off the total figure of fuel poverty but it is still, as I said at the time, a big number Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan (Lab): I am pleased which is growing. The gap facing the fuel poor to keep to follow my noble friend. In addressing his amendments their families warm is growing all the time. he covered, in part, some of the points I will raise in relation to my own. It is fair to say that the four This whole Bill is about how we run, regulate and amendments I tabled seek to add a bit of muscle and provide for energy supply to our population and to detail to the Government’s commitment. I will talk our businesses. All we have is the pretty feeble Clause 136 about this more in my later remarks, but the rather late as a hook on which to hang an as yet undefined and insertion of concerns about fuel poverty into the Bill weak fuel poverty strategy. The first two amendments mean that it is rather late in the day for some of the in the group try to make sure that fuel poverty is up amendments that we put forward, which are of a there with the other objectives of energy policy in the probing character. Therefore, one would hope that the Government’s statement of policy. I cannot see how spirit of these amendments will be carried into secondary they can possibly object to that reference. The third legislation: that is, statutory instruments, of which amendment relates to the strategy. It attempts to turn many are likely to be forthcoming. a very woolly clause into one which has targets—and clarity of those targets—that relate to the improvement The existing legislation, namely the Warm Homes and efficiency of the dwellings of the fuel poor, as well and Energy Conservation Act 2000, was steered through as to the reduction and eventual elimination of fuel this House by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, poverty in this country. If the strategy does not have who I regret is unable to be here today. All credit ambitions and targets, it will not receive the priority should be given to her for her efforts in that area, and future consideration in energy policy that fuel although I was always a little bit dubious about plucking poverty deserves. a date out of the air. I know that the date was the subject of some arm-wrestling between the then Labour I accept that the Government probably need to do Government and the Back-Benchers. However, the more work on that strategy, and that is why my fact is that it was an attempt. At the time there was a amendment does not specify exactly what those targets degree of optimism because, as noble Lords will recall, should be, but it does require the Government to set energy prices, particularly gas prices, were falling. We out those targets for 2020 and 2030. My noble friend could see households moving out of what was known Lord O’Neill is more specific on that in his amendments at the time as fuel poverty in quite considerable numbers. in this group. Either way, to give any confidence to the Not only were gas prices falling and thus people’s millions of people who are in fuel poverty out there, disadvantage in the energy market diminishing, there and the many more who are aware of the problem—who was also a sense that the general economic prosperity are sympathetic and demanding action—the Government of the time meant that the situation of the poor would need to accept that the policy and the strategy they become easier and, as the Americans say, all the boats come up with should actually mean something. would rise together. Unfortunately, all the boats did We need to refer to fuel poverty clearly in the policy not rise but the price of energy subsequently did, and statement. I hope, therefore, that the Government can the poor were left stranded in their inadequately insulated accept the first two of my amendments without any and poorly built homes. great difficulty. I also hope that they will accept either my third amendment or that of my noble friend Lord 5pm O’Neill, or at least commit themselves to coming Amendment 104D deals with housing conditions in forward at Third Reading with something very like it two steps. Priority would be given to the homes that which gives a structure and a framework for fuel are hardest to heat, and where the household income poverty. As we know, fuel poverty is a terrible curse on is less than 60% of median income after housing costs. our country. It causes people to skimp on food, and to That is the Government’s own definition of poverty. not buy necessities for their children. It causes serious The objective is for those householders to be helped by lung and heart conditions in thousands of our citizens 2020. Over the succeeding 10 years, the remaining at an estimated cost of £1.3 billion a year to the housing stock would be brought up to level B of the National Health Service. It causes whole families to energy efficiency ratings. Rating B is the level that a live in discomfort, in anxiety, in the cold, and in new house is currently expected to meet when it is distress. It is shocking that this Bill and the energy constructed. This is an ambitious target that would policy of the Government do not give greater prominence take some 17 years to meet. We are told that 70% of to the need to tackle this curse. fuel-poor households are living in E, F and G-rated These amendments, if the Government can accept buildings, so we are talking about improving something them, would go some way to deal with this. The like 1.7 million homes over the next six years, from Government need to accept the first two amendments 2014 to 2020. 243 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 244

[LORD O’NEILL OF CLACKMANNAN] are not expecting the Government to embrace these It is certainly the case that houses with SAP ratings amendments tonight, but what they are looking for of E, F and G are where most of the fuel poor live. are clear indications that we are getting beyond the Moreover, only 7% of them have, for example, a definition of the problem and moving towards a clear condensing boiler. It is not just a question of insulating commitment to solving it. In this process we want to the houses; it is equally important to have more efficient see clear reports, and also proper cognisance of our means of heating water and providing central heating responsibilities under the 2008 Climate Change Act. for these families. We know also that some 6 million We realise when we hear talk of green taxes, changes households are not connected to the gas grid. These in ECO and the possibility of direct taxation being the households are the ones where the fuel poverty gap, means of funding some of these programmes, that we where it exists, is likely to be twice as wide as it is in need to get assurances that we will not throw the households with gas boilers and central heating. Much environmental baby out with the bathwater. the same can be said for a number of houses solid-walled accommodation. We also have to recognise that we have come a long The point of using the SAP rating is that it is way. When I first came to Westminster more than 30 probably the most up to date definition of disadvantage years ago, fuel poverty was not a given. It was an item in respect of fuel costs. If you live in a house with an of dispute and debate. The conversation around the E, F or G SAP rating, it is likely that your home is very Hills report suggested that the problem of fuel poverty expensive to heat. The concept of low income, high was largely one of definition. Of course it was a rough cost is the basis of the Hills report, which defines fuel and ready definition that was dreamt up by a young poverty and the fuel poverty gap. My noble friend has researcher in the 1970s who was doing work on poverty already referred to the fact that, according to the Hills in Kensington. He was a man called Malcolm Wicks report, we have seen a reduction in the number of who went on to become a very distinguished Energy households in fuel poverty from 4.5 million to 2.4 million. Minister in another place. Much of his work was given My colleague suggested, perhaps somewhat cynically, over to looking at how we could address this problem. that this was an easy way of massaging the statistics. Nearly 40 years after Malcolm wrote his first report—in Frankly, there is a bit more to it than that, in so far as which he quite starkly laid down the choice of “eat or we now have a method of calculation that is not as heat”for the elderly of Kensington—we should be dealing vulnerable to fluctuations in price, which was the kind with this in a far more organised and programmatic of problem that we had in the early part of the last way than has been shown in the rather well intended decade. When gas prices were falling, the problems but often ill directed scattergun approach that successive seemed to be decreasing, but in fact we know that the Governments have had. people who were living in these homes were not really very much warmer because most of the heat that they I like to think that my amendments provide some were paying for was still going out of the window or milestones on a route that could be taken towards under the doors or not being properly contained within resolving this. I shall not press them, because they are the building itself. in many respects of a probing character, and I know that on Report we should be a bit further advanced It is not unreasonable to use the SAP rating as the than that, but I should like some indication from the basis to do this, because one of the things about Minister of the Government’s thinking on the specifics heritable property is that you cannot hide it. One of of handling this problem. The excuses that we had in the things about local government taxes is that people Committee on other matters about awaiting statutory do not really like rates, as we used to call them, and instruments coming out of the air—coming out of the they do not like revaluation because you cannot hide heavens—are not good enough. We know what the property. The fact is that these homes, which are problem is. inadequately constructed, will not disappear because the price of gas goes down, as they seemed to do in the We know that there are means whereby its resolution early part of the past decade. can be easily identified—not always easily resolved This amendment is suggested as a means of tackling but easily identified. Let us use the inadequacy of our the issue of fuel poverty. Most of the fuel poor live in housing stock and the manner in which we are currently the most poorly insulated houses that are the hardest grading that inadequacy, as the means whereby we set to heat. If we were to treat them in a step-by-step out priorities which, over a period of 17 years, could manner, we could be serious about tackling this problem. probably eliminate the best part of 70% to 80% of fuel We need to get far more from the Government than poverty in this country by a definition which, I think, the quite understandable expressions of concern about is now accepted as being clearer, more robust and this social problem. We need a programme that will more statistically sound than Malcolm Wicks’s figure indicate how they propose to address this. They have out of the air. If we could do that, we would do a great had the Hills report for many months. In the summer deal to enhance the memory of a colleague of many of we had the acceptance of the report and its incorporation us for whom we had great respect. One of his life’s within this legislation. I would have thought that five causes was the resolution of that problem. I am not months later we should have the beginnings of some saying that we should do it for Malcolm Wicks; I am kind of programme or plan to address the issue. saying that we should do it for the people who will be I understand that these amendments are not perfect, cold and miserable in what will probably be a serious but they enjoy the backing of a wide range of community, winter. Their health will be endangered and they may faith and campaigning groups that have been engaged not see another winter after this because of the houses in addressing this issue for many years. These groups in which they live. 245 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 246

Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, I apologise The truth is that in Britain but also in Europe as a for seeming to arrive into this very important Bill and whole, we are a pursuing a policy of expensive power. debate at a late stage, but the plain fact is that on the It may be for good reasons—if power is made expensive afternoons when the Bill has been taken before, I and bills are high people will move more quickly always had to chair a Select Committee elsewhere, and towards taking out these excellent schemes and towards I could not be in two places at once. I also declare energy efficiency—but that is what we are doing. Some interests as president of the Energy Industries Council, of us believe that that is the wrong way to deal with chairman of the Windsor Energy Group and an adviser global warming, the wrong way to reduce CO2, the wrong to the Mitsubishi Electric company. I am very glad to way to ensure the prosperity of people and the wrong have a chance to enter the debate at this stage and to way to help the elderly in their suffering. The best follow the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, whose persuasive green route, and the best way of justifying the green eloquence I remember from distant days in the House route, would be through cheap power, not expensive of Commons. It does not seem to have deserted him now. power. Of all the impacts of high prices—due to what I I am frankly astonished at the ruthlessness—perhaps believe to be over-rapid application of decarbonisation I should modify that and say the lack of compassion—that strategies and the scramble, which we have been told some folk show in their zeal in pursuing a policy of the Bill is about, somehow to persuade new investment expensive power and high prices. I cannot understand to replace all the plant that is being closed, but only by why that was done. I shall make a party point now. offering eye-wateringly high prices—the most painful The leader of the Labour Party, an extremely able and deplorable, and the one that fills me with the man, was, as Secretary of State for Energy and Climate greatest concern, is the impact on low-income families Change, the architect of these higher-price taxes—the and, in particular, the elderly and vulnerable in this green taxes which I shall come to in detail in a moment. climate, which can sometimes be very cold and cruel. Now he has gone the other way; he has seen the effect I am not against the amendments in spirit; behind and is calling for a price freeze. It reminded me of the all of them is a noble intention. Anything that can legend of the sorcerer’s apprentice. He unleashed the ameliorate the present situation—people always use brooms and the buckets in his green policies, and now the phrase, “We are where we are now”—for the elderly he cannot stop them and is calling for a freeze, which and low-income families and ease the ugly prospects is probably going to be ineffective. which face people as cold winters descend on us is commendable. Although I think that the Government’s So this is regression on a grand scale. The poor and measures, also in the same spirit, have gone some way the vulnerable are, through various means, having to to meet the problem, it is perfectly natural that, in a pay for a substantial transfer of funds from the consumer very noble way, additional amendments to do still to various causes, to encourage investment in new, more should be moved. That is perfectly reasonable. greener capacity to replace all the mothballed and coal-fired stations and so on. As your Lordships may However, I urge your Lordships to understand that see, this is a three-pronged assault on the poor. all this is only patch and mend. It is far from getting anywhere near the roots of the problem or taking the Recently there has been talk not only of freezing effective action that could be taken to ease some of the prices but of rolling back green levies. However, one threats of fuel poverty, which is alleged to be exceptionally must understand that that is not the only aspect. First, high in this country. It is patch and mend. Clause 136, one of the reasons that the energy companies kept which is paraded as a strategy, is not a strategy. It is indicating, when they were being given a going-over the Secretary of State’s patch-and-mend list of hopes by the Select Committee in the other place the other and intentions. The warm home discount and other day, for raising their charges and having to make a excellent efforts like the cold winter payments which substantial profit—I think 5% is the figure they all operate between November and March—people seem cited—is the need to finance extra plant to replace the to have forgotten that April can be very cold for many plant closed down because it was deemed to be higher- elderly people—are good moves in themselves, but carbon or unsuitable in accordance with EU regulations. they are not anything like a strategy. We can accept that reason or not accept it. However, even before we get to the green levies, that is the first 5.15 pm charge that arrives on the budget of the poor—on the budget of everyone, of course, but for the poor it is The real strategic cause of the suffering over which 15% or more of their disposable income. That is layer we do have some control is, as I have already suggested, one of the challenge on prices. the over-rapid decarbonisation programme—not that I believe that decarbonisation is the right objective, Then, of course, there are the levies themselves, but its handling has been deplorable under both which fall into two parts, as we all know. One part is to Governments. Certainly its handling was deplorable finance and subsidise the new very high-cost renewables under the previous Government, and I am not particularly and the draw-droppingly expensive electricity from thrilled by the present Government’s continuation of wind farms, which, as we know, is half as much again some of these efforts. It is turning out to be incredibly as the amount being offered to EDF for Hinkley Point expensive—much more expensive than the original C for the next 35 years, which in turn is half as much experts insisted that it would be. It is challenging us at again as we are paying now, which is considerably a time when wholesale prices for primary hydrocarbons more than we used to. The other half, oddly enough, is have risen as well. So on top of everything, we are for good social and compassionate reasons: it is to dealing with far greater expense and far higher prices redress the effects of the first two levies. The effect of than many of the experts and expert reports anticipated. the social programmes and the compensation is to 247 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 248

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] I think that we also ought to get the figures right. offset the effects of the levies that finance the subsidies The average cost of decarbonisation for payers of the on the investment required because the pace of dual tariff—about 80% of users—is £60 per year at the decarbonisation is just too fast and mishandled, and moment. I am not suggesting that £60 is an unimportant to offset the effect of the prices being charged by matter, but when the average payment for fuel bills energy companies. It is an odd situation where the is £1,300, I think that we have to be careful about total cost is designed to offset some of the total costs overemphasising the influence of the one thing upon that other measures have just pushed up. the other. By 2020, the amount will be £100—and the More insulation is of course an excellent thing. figure will rise accordingly between now and then. I do There has been talk about woolly jumpers and that may not know what the average fuel bill will be in 2020, but help the younger folk, but all I can say for oldies —I the idea that £100 will be the major reason why the think I can speak for them now; I used not to be able fuel bills will be high is not true. to, but I can now—is that cold limbs in a cold room or We must take these figures seriously. This is one of a cold house or flat really are extremely unpleasant the problems that we are facing. People are using and may lead to a very grim outcome. There are chilling figures that are clutched from the air. I have been estimates of how many will die of cold this winter in watching Twitter and I find that people—sometimes, I the UK, which make me personally quite ashamed. am afraid, from my own party—are busy putting out The whole decarbonisation programme behind all tweets saying that if we had had a decarbonisation this inflation of prices is paved with good intentions, target after 2020 it would have increased our bills by as is the insulation programme. I lived in a house that £125 per year. This is totally untrue. The figure is £20, had additional insulation. It had a thinner attic layer and the climate change committee has spent a great of carbon fibre over it and an additional three or four deal of time trying to get the best and most accurate inches was added over the beams. I cannot say that it figure possible. If the TaxPayers’ Alliance or others affected the bills very much but it may have held the want to pick a figure out of the air, it is not for us to warmth in the house for a little while. However, first quote it. We are faced with a real issue here. you have to heat the house up before you can contain the heat within it, and that costs money. Those are the If, despite evidence mounting all the time—today good intentions, and we all know what destination we have been told of the highest increase in surface good intentions pave the way to. A cold house and an temperatures that we know of for a very long time—you inability to meet these high bills is, frankly, hell for still do not believe that climate change is immediate elderlies and families. and dangerous and say that it is something that can be There is another issue here that we have not discussed put, if I may use the phrase, on the back burner, then because it is in other parts of the Bill: the so-called of course you can always say that this is not the massacre—which is what the European Commissioner moment to do this. However, I must say to my noble calls the effect of high energy prices in Europe, compared friend, that in that case it will never be the moment to with other parts of the world—of industry and jobs, do it, because that is always true at any given moment. which means more distress in many more families. I do However, if you see that climate change is the most not vigorously oppose these amendments; I just warn serious material threat to our society, as happily this that neither they nor Clause 36 are any cure at all for Government do—and it is a common view across the the real problem, which we should have the honesty to House—the £60 being charged for the insurance against face and address in a sensible and balanced way. it seems a reasonable amount. There is an argument, although it is not for the Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I do not disagree at climate change committee to make it, that we might all with everything that my noble friend Lord Howell change where the money comes from. However, I do has just said, but it is worth noting that heating in not think that there is an argument to say that we most households in this country is by gas or, for should not be spending the money. Therefore I think people like me who are off the mains, by oil. None of that we ought to be very careful when we are having the green taxes applies to either gas or oil. these discussions that we do not talk in a way that distorts the argument, either by the size of the price that we claim or by forgetting that most people’s Lord Deben (Con): My Lords, I think that, when we heating does not come from electricity—it comes from are making these decisions, we ought to be particularly gas and other sources—and therefore they are not careful about the figures that we use. We must also paying this. Neither ought we to forget that other understand why we are decarbonising at this rate. We countries are doing more than we are. Germany is are doing so because the economic advice from the doing more than we are and much of Europe is doing best economists that we have is that it is the cheapest at least as much, as we can see by looking at the way to decarbonise. If we were to put it off, the cost Danes. The rest of the world is moving in this direction would be considerably greater, so we should do it at in a very serious manner; whether it is today’s this pace. We can disagree with this, but to do so announcement from Mexico or the changes in China, would be to disagree with the best advice that we have we can see that this is happening all around the world. been able to get. I must say, on behalf of the climate It is not that Britain is doing better than others or is change committee, that, if I thought that there was a out of step, but that we are doing what the world is cheaper, more cost-effective way of doing it, I would doing, because the world recognises the threat. That do that. I am proposing this and have been pressing it means that we have to be very considerate about the because it is, by all the evidence, the best thing to do. condition and situation of vulnerable people. 249 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 250

I am not sure that these are the right amendments, I reread that debate and his first words were that he but I have listened very carefully to what has been said thanked the Minister for having brought fuel poverty about introducing this measure into the Bill in a more into the Bill. You would not have guessed that from pronounced way. I think that the Government have what he said this afternoon. probably got it about right, but I have listened with I have much more sympathy with the points made some care. However, it does not help the argument to by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, but he, too, had his use the poor as an argument against fighting climate words of congratulation in Grand Committee. He change, because the people who will suffer most from said: climate change are the poor throughout the world—not “The amendment goes some way to mitigate concerns that just here but in Bangladesh, the Pacific, India and have arisen about that. It sticks in my craw to say this but the elsewhere. I find this argument about the poor really Government must be praised for obtaining support for the measure very upsetting. from Derek Licorice, the chair of the Fuel Poverty Advisory Group, and Jenny Saunders of the NEA”.—[Official Report, 5.30 pm 11/7/13; col. GC 135.] One must recognise Clause 136 is a considerable step Lord Howell of Guildford: I do not want to upset forward. In Committee, I said that it was very worthwhile. the usual eloquence of my noble friend but he did Of course, the meat of this is going to be in subordinate refer to me. Given that he believes these burdens are regulations. We shall obviously want to watch that necessary, ought he not explain a bit more clearly how very carefully indeed. I totally understand the argument this really does lead, in this country, to fighting climate that my noble friend on the Front Bench advanced for change? He says we must be careful with figures—that not putting all the detail into the Bill, but wanting it in applies as much to some of his figures as to others that the regulations. are bandied around—but it appears that the pace of The impression I was given by the noble Lord, Lord CO2 growth generated by mankind is so large in other parts of the world that our only contribution can be Whitty, was that the Government were not doing by example. I would love to hear from him a rather anything for the fuel poor. In fact, he has had a copy more persuasive message as to why we should bear the of the letter that was sent to all of us from my noble pain we are bearing at the pace we are bearing it, friend on the Front Bench setting out the details although the destination is right, in the contribution of fuel poverty spending. The total resources spent in we are making to controlling climate change and 2010-11 at 2012 prices—these are common prices all violence in the future, which I accept is very likely and the way through—on fuel poverty spending was is a great danger. But has he got the pace right? £821 million. The current year has gone up, at constant prices, to £841 million and the next year the estimate is £845 million. That does not take account of the fuel Lord Deben: I can see the Whip looking at me with allowance, which is paid under the social security some care so I will be very quick. First, we have a arrangements. These are arrangements under the carbon moral duty because much of the climate change that is emissions target, under the energy company obligation, happening at the moment has actually been caused by the warm homes discount and so on, which are specifically us because we were the first in the Industrial Revolution. aimed at the poor. So I rather resent that. Secondly, if we want other, much less well-off people I have one question for my noble friend. John to follow, we have to set an example. Thirdly, 11% of Hills’s report made the hugely important point—indeed, the emissions in the world are made by organisations it has been referred to earlier in the debate—that it is that are headquartered or sold on the London Stock our uninsulated homes, particularly for poor people, Exchange, so we must realise how big our reach is. which are the biggest single cause of cold homes and Fourthly, because we have led the world—although fuel poverty. He quite rightly says—and this has been we do not now—other countries are now doing widely welcomed—that we must change the definition significantly more than we are. The President of South to take account of that. What I hope to hear from my Korea is here on a visit today. He comes from a noble friend is what is now happening to our main country that has a programme of very considerable programme, the Green Deal, which is supposed to be remit which will end up with it being carbon-neutral the main instrument for increasing the amount of by 2050. China is moving from a carbon-intensity insulation of homes? One has heard gloomy tales that target towards a carbon-reduction target for the mid-2020s. so far very few people have been able to take advantage It has already been shown that by leading the world, of that. What is happening on that? We must know. To the world is changing. But if we stand aside and say, my mind that is the most important thing we can do to “After you, Claude”, nothing will actually happen. reduce fuel poverty. That is why we have to do it. We do it for the poor. To use the poor as an argument against doing things on climate change seems close—although I am not saying The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department this about my noble friend—to reprehensible. of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con): My Lords, I start by thanking all noble Lords for a very full and informed debate. I thank my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con): My Lords, I shall be Lord Jenkin for reminding the House of the warm extremely brief because I sense the House would like welcome from the opposite Benches for us taking to come to a conclusion on the amendments. forward this measure. It is really important that we all I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, with agree that something must be done. What has been some astonishment. It was as though we had not even done in the past has not been enough. We need to be had a debate about fuel poverty in Grand Committee. working far more constructively together to get 251 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 252

[BARONESS VERMA] In the mean time we will continue to deliver policies solutions, particularly for those who are most vulnerable to tackle one of the main causes of fuel poverty, which, and least able to respond. I also thank my noble friend as noble Lords have already mentioned, is living in Lord Deben. He is absolutely right: any measures that cold, draughty homes. The energy company obligation we take here will have an impact somewhere else in the is set to deliver permanent energy savings in 230,000 world. It is really important that we are mindful that households by the end of the year, including for the this Bill is in part there to help decarbonisation. The hardest-to-treat homes. We anticipate the ECO affordable bigger picture is to play our role in helping other warmth and carbon saving communities obligations countries, which can look at how we are putting those should generate investment in home thermal efficiency measures in place. improvements equivalent to around £540 million per year. As a result of the ECO, we should see more than I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and 60,000 boilers—which were mentioned by the noble Lord O’Neill, for their amendments, because they Lord, Lord O’Neill—being installed in fuel-poor homes, enable me to clarify a little further points that I made as 60,000 have been installed since the policy was in Committee so that they feel reassured that this launched in January. Government really take seriously the issue of fuel poverty. We take the issue no less seriously than the previous Government did, but the measures that were Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan: Before the noble put in place were not working well enough. We need to Baroness leaves this point, I accept the procedural make sure, therefore, that what we are doing gives point she makes, that it is difficult to put detail of the better results. character of which we were talking in the Bill. However, we are entitled, some five months after the initial Noble Lords have rightly highlighted the seriousness welcome that we gave to the incorporation of the Hills of fuel poverty; it is because of this that we are principle, to some greater detail than a simple rehash committed to tackling this. This is why we made the of what we are doing this year. We want an indication amendments in Committee which will set a new target of what will happen in subsequent years, in advance of and put in place a new strategy for tackling the serious the consultative document being produced. At the issues around fuel poverty. This framework will allow moment, from what the Minister said, the Government us to maintain a concern for fuel poverty beyond the do not seem to have a clue what they are doing in that current date of 2016. That concern needs to be set out respect. in legislation. However, the right balance must be struck between what is set out in primary legislation, Baroness Verma: My Lords, that is very harsh of the what is subsequently laid out in secondary legislation noble Lord. I am trying to lay out clearly the direction and what is included in the strategy, to maintain an that the Government are taking. The measures that we appropriate use of parliamentary time and level of are taking are crucial to addressing concerns which he government accountability. raised. I have addressed the issue he raised about I turn to Amendments 104C, 104D, 104E, 104F boilers. Of course we are taking measures now but we and 104G, which would put a specific target for fuel need to make sure that, although there is ambition on poverty in the Bill, and limit the changes that can be all sides of the House to do more, we get it right in the made to the target as well as proposing a review of long term. that target every two years. We proposed setting the Amendments 92A and 92B specify that the strategy target through secondary legislation as we felt that this and policy statement and the Gas and Electricity struck the right balance between the certainty of legislative Markets Authority’s duty in relation to the statement targets and the need for flexibility in the future. The must include the strategy and objectives on fuel poverty. flexibility will, for instance, be important to reflect The Government take the need to address fuel poverty changes in the way energy efficiency is measured over seriously, and are already bringing forward proposals time. The setting of the target, and any changes to it, to do so. These amendments are therefore unnecessary. will be subject to full parliamentary debate and the The contents of the SPS will be subject to consultation importance of that debate is why we have proposed and parliamentary approval. Placing a particular priority that these are subject to affirmative resolution by both in the Bill would pre-empt this consultation and the Houses. ability of the Secretary of State to start with a clean sheet in considering the full range of energy policy. We know from Professor Hills’s independent review that the way in which we understand the problem, as 5.45 pm well as the best ways of tackling it, can change over time. Primary legislation is not the appropriate vehicle, I will try to touch on issues that were raised by the given the importance of a nuanced, flexible approach noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord O’Neill. Before to tackling fuel poverty. setting a position on where we need to take these proposals we need to fully understand the proposals, I agree with noble Lords that we must be ambitious the cost of the proposals, how they will work and what if we are to be successful in tackling fuel poverty, and period they will work over. It may be very easy in the strategy must be a comprehensive one. However, it opposition to say, “We want this now”, but we have is neither sensible nor appropriate to put this level of already had 13 years of proposals that have not worked. detail into primary legislation. We will bring forward We need proposals that have some meat—some body— proposals on both the fuel poverty target as well as the and work. That is why it is really important that we do strategy in due course, both for public consultation not get rushed into things because it makes a good and, subsequently, for a full debate by both Houses. political headline tomorrow. It is in the interest of all 253 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 254 those who are suffering in inefficient homes, with the with social policy and health policy, those in the cost of energy going up, that we have a clear, proper Treasury and those who determine the priorities of strategy that works and that addresses those with low this Government when we come to energy policy, we incomes but high costs around energy. I hope that are in some difficulty. noble Lords will be reassured that I, particularly, take these issues very seriously. I look forward to working Baroness Verma: My Lords, I make it very clear to with noble Lords to ensure that we put forward something the noble Lord that the amendments that we have that is not political but is a remedy to help the most tabled give a clear timetable for bringing forward vulnerable in our country. I hope that, on that note, proposals for a new target and a strategy to achieve it. the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. Therefore noble Lords can have great certainty that we will put in place a comprehensive framework within a Lord Whitty: I thank all noble Lords who have fixed time of the Act coming into force. taken part in this debate. It proved to be rather more Lord Whitty: My Lords, I accept the Government’s wide-ranging than I had anticipated, largely thanks to good faith—and certainly the Minister’s—in this respect. the first intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Howell. Certainly, Clause 136 gives the Government the I agreed with some of it, but he provoked a debate we opportunity and the requirement to do that. However, have already had several times in the course of the Bill. my point on these first two amendments is that we I disagree with his central point and I think we need to cannot ghettoise fuel poverty into one clause of the take advice from the noble Lord, Lord Deben. It Bill and one aspect of government thinking. All serves nobody’s interest to trade off the interests of approaches to tariffs, investment and the source of the fuel poor against the objectives of reducing carbon energy, as well as to measures to improve the energy in our energy. We have to tackle both as far as we can: efficiency of homes and other direct measures to help it is not a trade-off. Indeed, many of the measures we the fuel poor, need to be seen in the totality of energy are talking about to help the fuel poor, in particular policy as part of the Government’s obligation. That is improving the energy efficiency of homes, also help to why Amendment 98A proposes that a reference to fuel reduce total demand for energy and reduce carbon. poverty should be written clearly into the policy statement. There is no conflict: they are synergetic, if that is the It is nothing more than that, but it is very important word, in many respects. It was a bit of an unfortunate that that is reflected. I would have thought that the diversion, but at least it livened up the debate. Government could have accepted it, but given that the The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and the Minister, to Government are clearly not prepared to accept it I some extent, accused me of a volte-face. Certainly wish to test the opinion of the House. when the Government—between proceedings in the Commons and the Lords—came up with Clause 136, 5.52 pm there was a sigh of relief, which I shared, that fuel poverty was being addressed in this huge reorganisation Division on Amendment 92A of the electricity market and energy policy generally. I have no doubt that other noble Lords on this side Contents 172; Not-Contents 233. shared the relief that fuel poverty was at least appearing Amendment 92A disagreed. in the Bill. The problem is that it appeared at a rather late stage and that, as I said and maintain, it is a rather Division No. 1 thin clause. It refers to the Government “setting out an objective”at some date “for addressing”fuel poverty—it CONTENTS does not even say “reducing fuel poverty”. We therefore Adams of Craigielea, B. Corston, B. want a little more meat on the bone. Some of it can no Alton of Liverpool, L. Crawley, B. doubt be done by secondary regulation, but it would Anderson of Swansea, L. Davidson of Glen Clova, L. be better, frankly, if the Government were open to Andrews, B. Davies of Coity, L. strengthening Clause 136. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Davies of Oldham, L. Bach, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, The issue immediately before us is slightly different. Bakewell, B. B. Amendments 92A and 92B suggest that we should Bassam of Brighton, L. Desai, L. clearly signal within the statement of energy policy [Teller] Donaghy, B. that fuel poverty is one aspect. Indeed, the programme, Beecham, L. Drake, B. the policy and the strategy that the Government intend Berkeley of Knighton, L. Dubs, L. to bring forward under Clause 136 should be seen as Bichard, L. Elder, L. Billingham, B. Elystan-Morgan, L. part of that. It needs specific mention because it was Blackstone, B. Erroll, E. not there for most of the Bill’s existence, it does not Boateng, L. Evans of Parkside, L. appear in most of the Bill, it was not there at all for the Boothroyd, B. Evans of Watford, L. whole of the Commons procedure on the Bill and it Borrie, L. Falkland, V. needs to be clear now. This is our last opportunity in Brennan, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. consideration of the Bill to make sure that fuel poverty Brookman, L. Ford, B. is a major dimension of overall energy policy. Browne of Ladyton, L. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. That is a fairly simply thing for the Government to Campbell-Savours, L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. accept. I am sorry that the Minister thinks that it is Christopher, L. Gale, B. Clancarty, E. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. superfluous or otiose, as it is very important. If the Clark of Windermere, L. Giddens, L. objective of fuel poverty is not in the minds of not Clarke of Hampstead, L. Glasman, L. only DECC Ministers but those who are concerned Clinton-Davis, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. 255 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 256

Gould of Potternewton, B. Montgomery of Alamein, V. Butler-Sloss, B. Humphreys, B. Grantchester, L. Moonie, L. Caithness, E. Hunt of Wirral, L. Grenfell, L. Morgan of Ely, B. Cameron of Dillington, L. Hurd of Westwell, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. Campbell of Surbiton, B. Hussein-Ece, B. Grocott, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Carrington of Fulham, L. James of Blackheath, L. Hanworth, V. Moser, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Jay of Ewelme, L. Harries of Pentregarth, L. Nye, B. Clement-Jones, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Harris of Haringey, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Colville of Culross, V. Jenkin of Roding, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Palmer, L. Colwyn, L. Jolly, B. Haskel, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. Condon, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Hayman, B. Patel, L. Cotter, L. Jopling, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Pendry, L. Courtown, E. Kalms, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Cox, B. King of Bridgwater, L. Henig, B. Pitkeathley, B. Prescott, L. Craig of Radley, L. Kirkham, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Craigavon, V. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Hollick, L. Prosser, B. Quin, B. Crickhowell, L. Knight of Collingtree, B. Howells of St Davids, B. Cumberlege, B. Kramer, B. Radice, L. Howie of Troon, L. Dannatt, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Hoyle, L. Rea, L. De Mauley, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. Reid of Cardowan, L. Deben, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Deech, B. Lee of Trafford, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Richard, L. Deighton, L. Leigh of Hurley, L. Irvine of Lairg, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Denham, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Rooker, L. Dholakia, L. Lexden, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Rosser, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Lingfield, L. Jones, L. Rowlands, L. Dobbs, L. Listowel, E. Judd, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Doocey, B. Lothian, M. Kennedy of Cradley, B. Sawyer, L. Dykes, L. Lucas, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Eaton, B. Lyell, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Sherlock, B. Eccles, V. Lytton, E. Kilclooney, L. Simon, V. Eden of Winton, L. MacGregor of Pulham Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Singh of Wimbledon, L. Elton, L. Market, L. Kinnock, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Falkner of Margravine, B. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Kirkhill, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Faulks, L. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Snape, L. Fellowes of West Stafford, L. McNally, L. Lawrence of Clarendon, B. Soley, L. Fink, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Flather, B. Mancroft, L. Leitch, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Fookes, B. Manzoor, B. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Stone of Blackheath, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Liddle, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Fowler, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Lipsey, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Framlingham, L. L. Lister of Burtersett, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. Freeman, L. Mawson, L. Low of Dalston, L. Temple-Morris, L. Freud, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. McAvoy, L. Tomlinson, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Touhig, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. B. L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Gardner of Parkes, B. Montrose, D. McDonagh, B. Turnberg, L. Garel-Jones, L. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Turnbull, L. Geddes, L. Morris of Bolton, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Uddin, B. German, L. Naseby, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Walpole, L. Glasgow, E. Nash, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Warner, L. Glenarthur, L. Neville-Jones, B. Mallalieu, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Glentoran, L. Neville-Rolfe, B. Mandelson, L. Wheeler, B. Goodlad, L. Newby, L. [Teller] Mar, C. Whitaker, B. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Newlove, B. Masham of Ilton, B. Whitty, L. Greenway, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Massey of Darwen, B. Wigley, L. Grender, B. B. Maxton, L. Wilkins, B. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Northbrook, L. May of Oxford, L. Wills, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Norton of Louth, L. Meacher, B. Winston, L. Hamwee, B. O’Cathain, B. Mendelsohn, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Hanham, B. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Monks, L. Worthington, B. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Oxburgh, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Paddick, L. NOT CONTENTS Henley, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Heyhoe Flint, B. Palumbo of Southwark, L. Aberdare, L. Berridge, B. Hill of Oareford, L. Parminter, B. Addington, L. Bew, L. Hodgson of Abinger, B. Patten, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Pearson of Rannoch, L. Alderdice, L. Blencathra, L. L. Perry of Southwark, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Holmes of Richmond, L. Popat, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- B. Home, E. Purvis of Tweed, L. Hamdon, L. Bourne of Aberystwyth, L. Hooper, B. Randerson, B. Astor of Hever, L. Bowness, L. Horam, L. Rawlings, B. Attlee, E. Brabazon of Tara, L. Howard of Lympne, L. Razzall, L. Bakewell of Hardington Bradshaw, L. Howarth of Breckland, B. Redesdale, L. Mandeville, B. Bridgeman, V. Howe of Aberavon, L. Ribeiro, L. Balfe, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. Ridley, V. Barker, B. Burnett, L. Howe, E. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Bates, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. 257 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 258

Rogan, L. Taverne, L. Committee, I fully support these but I remain firmly Roper, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. of the view that, in certain respects, we are losing sight Sandwich, E. Taylor of Holbeach, L. of the purpose behind them. We cannot safeguard the Seccombe, B. Tebbit, L. environment for future generations by targets alone. Selborne, E. Teverson, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Here and now—right now—we must give equal regard Selsdon, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. to upholding and enhancing existing hard won protections Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Tope, L. for the UK’s natural environment—its landscape, Sharkey, L. Trefgarne, L. ecosystems, habitats and biodiversity. Energy is not an Sharp of Guildford, B. Trimble, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. end in itself; we need it to have a society worth living Tugendhat, L. Sheikh, L. in, but sadly we seem to be in an era of public policy Shephard of Northwold, B. Tyler of Enfield, B. -making where protections for landscapes and the Sherbourne of Didsbury, L. Ullswater, V. environment are seen as an obstacle to growth and to Verma, B. Shrewsbury, E. keeping the lights on. It should not—and indeed need Shutt of Greetland, L. Wakeham, L. Skelmersdale, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. not—be a case of having to make a choice. The present Smith of Clifton, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Government pledged to be the greenest ever but, in reality, Spicer, L. Walmsley, B. safeguards for the environment are being systematically Stedman-Scott, B. Walton of Detchant, L. weakened. Steel of Aikwood, L. Wasserman, L. Stephen, L. Wei, L. The Bill, in its current form, is no exception. Energy Stewartby, L. Wheatcroft, B. infrastructure has huge impacts on the environment. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Wilcox, B. These amendments seek to prevent the Bill eroding Storey, L. Williams of Trafford, B. environmental safeguards and to ensure that they are Stowell of Beeston, B. Willoughby de Broke, L. Strasburger, L. Wilson of Tillyorn, L. meaningful and effective. The first amendment would Strathclyde, L. Wrigglesworth, L. ensure that the strategy and policy statement places a Suttie, B. Younger of Leckie, V. responsibility on Ofgem to demonstrate compliance—and I emphasise those words—with its general environmental 6.05 pm duties. This includes duties to have regard to the purposes of national parks, areas of outstanding natural Clause 123: Duties in relation to statement beauty and the Norfolk and Suffolk Broads. When I put forward a similar amendment in Amendment 92B not moved. Committee, the Minister sought to reassure me that the strategy and policy statement would not override Amendment 93 Ofgem’s existing duties to contribute to sustainable Moved by Lord Judd development, and that those duties would still apply. 93: Clause 123, page 92, line 39, at end insert— In the Minister’s view, therefore, the amendment was “( ) The Authority must demonstrate that it has complied with unnecessary. I understand her point and I also appreciate its general environmental duties as stipulated in national and that she may wish to avoid a detailed amendment international legislation.” listing all the various duties. However—noble Lords must forgive me if I did not make this clear at an earlier Lord Judd: My Lords, I shall also take the opportunity stage—that is really not the issue. The point is that, to speak to Amendments 94, 95 and 96. I declare an while there are indeed existing legislative duties that interest as a vice-president of the Campaign for National would not change, there is currently no explicit requirement Parks, a patron of the Friends of the Lake District, in the Energy Bill for Ofgem—again I underline these and a member and supporter of the Campaign to words—to demonstrate compliance with them. The Protect Rural England and other environmental agencies. amendment would also require the authority to In the context of this amendment, I pay special tribute demonstrate compliance with its obligations under the to the John Muir Trust, which has done outstanding conservation of wild birds and habitats directives, work in this area and with which I have been incredibly which is crucial given the perilous state of the UK’s fortunate to co-operate in the preparation of what I biodiversity. want to say. The second amendment, also to Clause 123, would We must never forget that we are custodians of this insert on page 92 after line 39: planet for future generations. Our responsibility to safeguard the environment, especially those parts of it “The Secretary of State shall issue guidance on social and that our generation has not so far severely damaged, environmental policies to which the Authority shall have regard must always be at the forefront of our minds and in carrying out its functions”. policy-making. We must never fall victim to misguided, The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the damaging and unnecessary short-term measures, whatever Government issue social and environmental guidance our commitment to what is regarded as essential growth. to Ofgem. At the moment, Clause 129(1) repeals, and I fear that some government policies that are intended does not replace, sections in the Gas Act and the to protect the environment are instead driving action Electricity Act that provide that the Secretary of State that is damaging it. In particular I think of the deployment shall issue guidance on social and environmental matters of energy infrastructure on our most precious and to which the authority, Ofgem, shall have regard when wild landscapes. carrying out its functions. In the Explanatory Notes, My amendments are certainly not intended to challenge the Government argued: the Government’s climate change goals and their efforts “The strategy and policy statement will replace existing guidance to move to a green energy system. As I made clear in for the regulator on social and environmental matters”. 259 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 260

[LORD JUDD] 6.15 pm However, surely replacing existing guidance on social The third amendment in this group is to Clause 125. and environmental matters means precisely that: replacing It proposes that the words, it—that is, providing new guidance and not removing “and in accordance with any guidance issued under this section”, all reference to it, which is what has apparently happened. should be inserted at the end of line 36 on page 94. Specifically, Clause 123(1) requires Ofgem to, The fourth amendment seeks to insert, also on page 94 after line 36: “have regard to the strategy priorities set out in the strategy and “The Secretary of State must issue guidance about arrangements policy statement when carrying out regulatory functions”. for wider public engagement including consultation on social and environmental matters”. As I understand it, these include functions to which the principal objective duty is applied. This duty is to Again, I refer to the original DECC background note be found in the Gas Act 1986, with equivalent provisions to the Bill. This states that the Government intended that in the Electricity Act 1989. These provisions make it there would be a wide public consultation in drafting clear that the principal objective is to protect the the strategy and policy statement. Indeed, it emphasised: interests of existing and future customers of gas and “Consultation will be important given the effect of this instrument, to ensure the priorities and outcomes are well-chosen and do not electricity and, wherever appropriate, to promote have unintended effects”. competition. Obviously, I wholeheartedly support the aspiration Therefore, Ofgem’s commercial responsibilities are for wide public consultation on the strategy and policy clearly defined. However, because there is no explicit statement. However, in the absence of a clear prompt in requirement in the Bill for the Secretary of State to set the Bill, I am, frankly, doubtful that this will happen out social and environmental guidance to Ofgem, such effectively. In order to avoid unintended effects, it as exists at present, the priority given to social and will be vital to ensure that a broad range of stakeholders, environmental factors in public policy will be significantly including technical experts, consumer groups, land weakened. managers, planners and NGOs concerned with environmental issues are involved. The repeal of the Electricity Act and Gas Act clauses In Committee, the Minister felt that the Bill already will result in another significant change that will weaken made provision for wide public consultation and that environmental protection. Currently, these clauses ensure it was inappropriate to list specific consultees in the that any guidance on social and environmental matters Bill. However, the Bill makes no reference to wide issued by the Secretary of State is on an equal footing public consultation, merely referring to, with the principal objective duties: namely, the protection “such other persons as the Secretary of State considers … of customers and the promotion of competition. However, appropriate”, once they are repealed, any guidance that the Secretary which could of course mean no one at all. The Secretary of State deems it appropriate to issue in future will be of State needs to issue clear guidance about how, and subordinate to the principal objective duties in a way with whom, consultation is to take place. This is surely that is not the case at present. a necessary provision if, as the Minister stated during I am afraid that the Minister’s responses in Committee discussion in Committee, the Government wish to, failed to reassure me that there will be equivalent “engage fully with all … stakeholders, including, where relevant, those who represent an environmental perspective”.—[Official social and environmental protection if Clause 129 is Report, 9/7/13; col. GC 52.] passed into legislation. In fact, to be honest, they The House will note that the amendment as worded further convinced me that it is the Government’s intention no longer lists consultees. This, I hope, addresses the to subordinate environmental considerations to the Minister’s concern. However, it does require the Secretary commercial imperative. of State to issue firm guidance to cover arrangements The Government may well feel that there is no need for wider public consultation. for this amendment as Ofgem’s existing duties to, Viscount Ridley (Con): My Lords, I declare my interests “have regard to the effect on the environment of activity connected in various forms of energy as listed in the register. with the conveyance of gas through pipes or with the generation, Before I turn to the topic of the amendment of the transmission, distribution or supply of electricity”, noble Lord, Lord Judd, it has been drawn to my remain intact because Section 3A(5) in the Electricity attention that when I spoke on the Bill at Second Act and Section 4AA(5) in the Gas Act are not being Reading I perhaps should have declared a potential repealed. However, surely without guidance from the interest. Having taken advice on the matter and satisfied Secretary of State on the meaning of “have regard to” myself that a shareholding was declared in the register, and the policies to be followed, compliance with the I do not believe there is a conflict. However, for the duties is left to the discretion of the regulator. Surely sake of good order, I am happy to declare that I have a the interpretation of this duty is not a matter to be left shareholding in a company called the Weir Group, one to the regulator; it is for the Government to determine of whose divisions supplies equipment to the oil and the social and environmental factors that should be gas industry. I was unaware of Weir Group’s activities considered by the regulator and the value that should in this area at the time but I am happy to add the be placed on them. The amendment would ensure that declaration now if it is thought necessary. provision for the Secretary of State to issue social and I have a lot of sympathy for what the noble Lord, environmental guidance to Ofgem remained in primary Lord Judd, has said. I hope that my noble friend the legislation in accordance with what, I submit, was the Minister can reassure us that we can close some of the original intent as set out in the guidance to the Bill. loopholes through which developers can currently drive 261 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 262 what is nothing less than the despoliation of many of The wind industry has proved uniquely insensitive our most beautiful parts of the countryside in the name when it comes to looking after the countryside. These of supposedly saving the planet. In particular, I would amendments are a chance to put environmental safeguards like to seek reassurance that the Bill will not weaken in place to ensure proper consultation. but will strengthen the guidance issued in June by the Department for Communities and Local Government Baroness Whitaker (Lab): My Lords, I would like to to ensure that renewable energy does not automatically record my support for this group. I declare an interest override environmental protection. Reaction to that as president of the South Downs Society. I, too, thank planning guidance has been disappointing. The wind the John Muir Trust. Environmental protection does industry boasted in July that the national policy has not go by default. It cannot be left to arrive on its not been changed by recent ministerial statements. It seems own. The whole history of our relatively commendable to me that there is insufficient protection at the moment standards of environmental protection is vigorous, for the most treasured landscapes of this country from defensive and positive action by individuals, associations the blight of wind farms. It is, to quote a spokesman and states. State action, state confirmation of the for the Council for the Protection of Rural England, quality of our environment, is necessary to protect the “a bit of a free for all. The general view held by developers is to future. I hope that the Minister will accept these have a go—to put in an application and see what happens”. amendments. Some 188 onshore wind farms were approved in the first eight months of 2013. Applications have trebled Baroness Worthington (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful this year. National parks are affected either directly or to my noble friend Lord Judd for tabling this group of indirectly, areas of outstanding natural beauty as well, amendments and for his incredibly detailed explanation and in Scotland, national scenic areas. We read this week of the points that he seeks to raise. He not only gave of the threat to Hardy country near Tolpuddle. Navitus an incredibly detailed explanation of why the group is Bay off the Isle of Wight—the New Forest is seeing a so important; he also very commendably addressed connection to this—mid-Wales, Snowdonia, the Llyn some of the answers that the Minister gave in Committee. peninsula, the Meifod valley, are all affected by enormous We are very grateful for that. numbers of applications for wind farms. All too many It is absolutely clear that, at the moment, we talk parts of the highlands of Scotland are seeing what is about an energy trilemma—the difficulty of marrying effectively the industrialisation of the countryside. It is up the needs to tackle change, to keep bills affordable not just the turbines but the pylons that connect them and to keep the lights on—but actually it is a quadlemma, to the grid which are marching through people’s most if noble Lords can bear my coining a new phrase, favourite views. because in the process of meeting those three objectives Already many of the most beautiful parts of this we cannot see the sacrificing of social and environmental country have been scarred. In my native Northumberland standards in the process. For that reason, this group of my view of Simonside is now affected by wind farms, amendments is very important. as are the Cheviots and the Wannies. Above all, the I came into environmental campaigning through an sensational view of the Northumberland skyline from interest in the natural world and the natural environment. Lindisfarne has been turned into a Golgotha. To The Countryside and Rights of Way Act was one of quote the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle, the first pieces of legislation that I worked on because who is not in his place: I care passionately about preserving areas of beauty, “There is no evidence that I have seen that wind farms will species and habitats and the diversity of the natural ever provide the reliable controllable energy this is required by our world for future generations. But that is not incompatible society, however many there may be. It is a basic Christian truth with moving forward into a low-carbon energy system. that we all have a duty and a responsibility to care for and exercise The noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, has singled out wise stewardship over God’s creation, which has been entrusted wind for particular opprobrium in terms of despoiling to us”. our landscape. It is easy to forget that one of the major That echoes what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said sources of despoiling our landscape is industrialisation about our temporary stewardship of the planet. in general. This includes mining, particularly opencast The right reverend Prelate made a crucial point mining, and the new form of industrialisation which because this might all be worth while if these things may well be coming upon us in the form of gas fracking. produced worthwhile amounts of electricity, but they If you want visual disturbance, then the rigs that will do not. This morning, about 6% of our power was need to be placed for fracking will also have an impact. coming from wind, which is about 1% of our total The noble Viscount was correct in also highlighting energy. There is a feeling that wind seems to be exempt pylons and grid connections as an issue. However, from the normal rules. If I were to erect a structure those apply to all forms of generation, not just wind. 140 metres high, doubling the height above sea level of The reinforcement of the grid for nuclear will also be the hills alongside the valley of the Stinchar in Ayrshire, an issue that needs to be taken into account. for example, there would rightly be an outcry. If I were We are very supportive of the principle behind these to kill hundreds of birds of prey every year, there amendments. It is important that the first amendment would be outrage. If I were to kill thousands of bats, I is about demonstration of compliance. If noble Lords would go to gaol. How can it be that the wind industry read these amendments, it might be easy to dismiss uniquely is allowed to ride roughshod over the them and say, “Of course they have to comply with environmental rules that protect the rest of us from laws. That is why we have laws”. However, I think that anyone spoiling the view, killing eagles, decimating my noble friend’s point is about the degree to which bats, and pouring concrete into peatland? the authority is required to demonstrate compliance. 263 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 264

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] The amendments would require the Secretary of The very important point is that the Bill seems to be State to publish guidance on wider public engagement, removing and repealing existing guidance and replacing which would apply before he decided either to leave the it with a second-order replacement. I look forward to strategy and policy statement unchanged or to withdraw hearing the Minister’s reassurance that that is not the it after a review. The Bill already provides for the case and that social and environmental guidance is not Secretary of State to consult Ofgem, Scottish and Welsh being made subordinate to other primary concerns. Ministers and such other persons as he deems appropriate. The final amendment on public consultation is also In practice, when the Government review the statement, very important. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s they will consult a range of stakeholders before deciding reply. We are sympathetic to this. It is rather late in how to proceed. Guidance on wider public engagement, the day and other forms of wording might be more as proposed by this amendment, is therefore unnecessary. appropriate but I very much support the principle I should also stress that the strategy and policy statement behind these amendments. will not be used to introduce new policies. It will reflect on established policy, which would have been Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank the noble consulted upon previously, as appropriate. Lord, Lord Judd, for his amendments. The Government The noble Lord, Lord Judd asked whether the repeal recognise that energy production and consumption of the social and environmental guidance would should be sustainable. That is why Ofgem has been reduce protection for social and environmental matters. given duties to contribute to the achievement of sustainable I hope that I have reassured him that social and development and to have regard to the effect on the environmental matters will be taken into account in environment of activities connected with the conveyance identifying which policy outcomes should be included of gas and the generation, transmission, distribution in the strategy and policy statement. Ofgem already is and supply of electricity. required to have regard to social and environmental Ofgem can also consider sustainability implications matters as part of its existing remit. when it carries out impact assessments for important The noble Lord also asked what practical difference regulatory decisions. The amendments before us would the strategy and policy statement would make. I hope require Ofgem to demonstrate that it has complied that he is reassured that it clearly lays out the strategic with its general environmental duties. We agree that priorities of the Government’s energy policy and that Ofgem should be accountable. It already has to produce the policy outcomes are expected to be achieved as a an annual report on matters that fall within the scope result of implementing that policy. Ofgem will have new of its functions, including its environmental obligations. duties to have regard to those strategic priorities when This accountability will be reinforced by the strategy carrying out its regulatory functions and must carry out and policy statement as Ofgem will be required to set these functions in a way that it considers best calculated out its strategy for implementing the statement in to further the delivery of a specified policy outcome. forward work programming. It will also be required to I hope that the noble Lord feels reassured that the report annually on its contribution towards furthering Government have taken very much into account his the delivery of the policy outcomes. concerns on sustainability. Ofgem has a range of powers and duties, including its principal objective to protect 6.30 pm the interests of existing and future consumers in relation The amendments would also require the Government to electricity conveyed. These statutory duties are to issue social and environmental guidance. It may applied through the price controls that regulate the help here if I explain why the Bill removes the guidance monopoly networks. The aim is to drive real benefits provision. The Ofgem review found that the guidance for consumers and to provide companies with strong has not achieved coherence between the Government’s incentives to meet the challenges of delivering a sustainable energy strategy and the regulatory regime. They energy sector at a lower cost. recommended that it should be replaced by a strategy and policy statement. This statement will set out the Lord Judd: Perhaps I may ask the Minister a question, Government’s strategic priorities, the main considerations because her answer would be immensely helpful for which have informed their energy policy and the policy me in considering what to say in my reply. Will she outcomes which are to be achieved to implement this reassure me that she will write to me a letter, which can policy. be placed in the Library and elsewhere, setting out Ofgem must have regard to the strategic priorities precisely how the Government will satisfy themselves when it carries out its regulatory functions and it must that Ofgem will pay due regard to the effect on the carry out these functions in the way it considers best environment of activity connected with the conveyance calculated to further delivery of the policy outcomes. of gas through pipes or generation, transmission and This is a stronger requirement than applied in the the distribution or supply of electricity? What measures guidance, to which Ofgem only had to have regard. and benchmarks, and associated matters, will be taken The Bill therefore goes further than the noble Lord’s into account and used in establishing those benchmarks? amendment and the statement will be a fitter mechanism for achieving coherence between energy policy and Baroness Verma: My Lords, of course I am absolutely regulation. The strategy and policy statement can happy to ensure that I write to the noble Lord on the include material on social and environmental matters. points that he has raised today. I also say to my noble We will take the current guidance into account as we friend that I hope I have reassured him that planning develop its contents but keeping the guidance alongside decisions are as they have been laid out and that we would dilute the value of the statement. will take very much into account the views of the local 265 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 266 communities, as has been laid out by the Secretary of quickly look like an awful lot of waffle. What matters State for the Department for Communities and Local is to have some muscle in the Bill, supporting the Government. I hope that on that note I have conveyed excellent aspirations of the Minister, and that we ensure enough reassurance for the noble Lord to withdraw that the right course is taken. At this stage, in thanking his amendment. those who participated in this, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Lord Judd: My Lords, first, I thank those who have spoken in support of my amendments. I particularly Amendment 93 withdrawn. welcome the strong support from my Front Bench. The Minister certainly has reassured me that she takes Amendment 94 not moved. these issues seriously. I think that she is a civilised person who sees the force of what I have been arguing. Clause 125: Review I just would like to make several observations. First, we all bemoan, and English literature is full of references, Amendments 95 and 96 not moved. what happened in the Industrial Revolution. Without in any way undermining the drive and everything that was so important in the Industrial Revolution, with Clause 130: Power to modify energy supply licences: the benefit of hindsight we can see that things could domestic supply contracts have been done much better. We would not have seen the same degree of rape and misuse of valuable rural, scenic assets in the country. Amendment 97 My second observation draws on the OECD report Moved by Lord Roper that has just been published. One of the reasons why 97: Clause 130, page 100, line 16, at end insert— the UK apparently scores relatively highly as being a “(ba) require information to be provided in a form that is good place to live is because of the environmental clear and easy to understand;” considerations of living here. We should jealously preserve that quality in our life. I have no doubt whatever that, in the context of what I have come to regard a Lord Roper (LD): My Lords, on behalf of my noble very ideological age with its total commitment to the friend Lady Maddock, who is away from the House with market, the quantative issues in forward policy will be her Select Committee today, I shall move Amendment 97 very well put forward and strenuously advocated. If and speak to the other amendments in this group. At we really take seriously the preservation of our heritage, Committee stage, she tabled an amendment to the the landscape and all that makes for a wonderful tariff reform clauses in the Bill which we are now country in which to live, those arguments will not considering, suggesting that suppliers should provide necessarily automatically by market mechanisms come details of their cheapest tariff on bills, forward in the same way, because these are public “in a clear and easily understood format”. goods. Therefore, from this standpoint, a much stronger She developed that in her speech in Grand Committee. argument about just what it means to take into account For those who were not in Grand Committee, I these considerations and who should be involved in recommend that they read it, because she made her representing and presenting them should be in the Bill. argument extremely effectively. The clauses in question At the moment, because she is a very reasonable person, provide the power to require suppliers to provide a I am sure that the Minister will understand that however message on bills telling customers if they offer a tariff much aspiration there is in the drafting of the Bill, it which could save them money, and how much money leaves an awful lot to the subjectivity of the regulator. they could save by moving the tariff. To be told that the regulator is going to have to report In Committee, my noble friend Lady Maddock annually on the fulfilment of the objectives is, again, a raised concerns that suppliers would make this confusing nice aspiration; it is full of good intention, I am sure. on their bills, and gave examples of how much difficulty But against which precise benchmarks is he going to people had in reading their existing bills. She suggested report? That is why the letter could be so important, that her amendment, which indeed is being proposed and why I hope—I am sorry, I should have stipulated again at this stage in a slightly amended form, would this—that it will be with us before Third Reading. prevent them from doing this. My noble friend the From all the standpoints, it is important to recognise Minister agreed with the sentiment of the amendment that we are talking about what the right reverend during Grand Committee, and said that she would Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle expressed so well, as consider it. I know how grateful my noble friend Lady put to us by the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley. We are Maddock is that the Minister gave a great deal of talking about our duty to the future. I am sure no attention to it and has been able to add her name to noble Lords want their children and grandchildren to the set of amendments which we are considering today. grow up in an age in which we have enshrined in law Although this amendment is not exactly in the same and legislation the need to know the price of everything, place as originally envisaged by my noble friend Lady but in which we have allowed the decline of knowing Maddock, it sits within the same clause and has the about the value of things. That is why the considerations same intent and legal force as the original proposals. before us are of such importance. The remaining amendments in this group are minor I do not question the Minister’s goodwill, but I and consequential to ensure consistency in the terms suggest to her—because we are friends, I can put it to used throughout the clauses. I look forward to these her bluntly—that in the light of experience it could amendments being made to the Bill. I beg to move. 267 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 268

6.45 pm 100: Clause 130, page 100, line 24, at end insert— “(c) make provision about the way in which information is to Lord Whitty: My Lords, I would briefly like to add be provided, which may in particular require information our support to these amendments. It is very good that to be provided— the intentions of the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, (i) by means of a code or otherwise using a format have been taken on board by the Government, and it readable by an electronic device, or should lead to a significant improvement in the way in (ii) in a way which facilitates processing of the information which consumers understand this market and their by means of an electronic device.” own bills. At the end of the day, with the massive changes that are expected in energy policy, unless Amendments 98 to 100 agreed. consumers are themselves convinced that this is all part of a coherent and positive strategy there will be serious political problems down the line for the Amendment 101 Government in power, whoever they are. I therefore think the Minister has been very sensible. I congratulate Moved by Baroness Verma her on taking this initiative and making it her own, 101: Clause 130, page 102, line 9, at end insert— and give my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady “(13) A statutory instrument containing an order under Maddock, and the noble Lord, Lord Roper, for pursuing subsection (10) is subject to annulment in pursuance of an order it in the first instance. of either House of Parliament.”

Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD): My Lords, I will Baroness Verma: My Lords, Amendments 101, 103 comment briefly on this clause because in my life and 104 make the order-making power relating to hitherto I have spent a great deal of time trying to help domestic tariffs in Clauses 130 and 131 subject to the the great British public understand some of the contracts negative resolution procedure. This was a recommendation that have come their way. I am afraid to say—and I do of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform not think anyone in the House will disagree—that a Committee. I again thank the committee for its good deal of cynicism has been employed by some of consideration of the Bill. The Government agree that the very large energy suppliers, and indeed other suppliers the recommendation would be an improvement, so I in recent years, designed expressly to confuse the will move these amendments to give effect to it. consumer with a view to preventing ordinary folk from understanding what their best tariff, for example, Lord Roper: My Lords, I welcome the response that might be. This is a clause of great virtue, which should the Government have made to the report of the Delegated be supported. Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. This and other recommendations were raised in Grand Committee. Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords In virtually every case the Government have been able for their support for this amendment and the noble to come back and accept those recommendations. Lord, Lord Roper, for speaking on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, to her amendment. These amendments would place in the Bill a requirement Lord Grantchester (Lab): My Lords, the House is that information in consumer energy bills must be, rightly wary of allowing wide discretionary powers without being able to suitably assess their application “provided in a form that is clear and easy to understand”. later. YourLordships’ Delegated Powers and Regulatory My noble friend Lady Maddock raised the importance Reform Committee expressed concern about the powers of this at Second Reading and in Committee, and the in the Bill. In Committee, on 9 July, along with the Government agree it is vital. Ensuring consumers are noble Lord, Lord Roper, we highlighted these concerns. provided with clear and simple information regarding At the time the Government agreed to bring forward their existing tariff and others available to them is one amendments to ensure that the Bill and the secondary of the key aims of the powers in question, and of legislation would be complicit. While it has taken Ofgem’s retail market review. I am therefore very several iterations between the Minister’s department grateful to my noble friend for bringing forward these and the Select Committee to get it right, I am pleased amendments and I can confirm that the Government to see that the Government finally listened to the are happy to accept them. recommendations that were made and tabled these amendments. Parliament must be able to scrutinise the Lord Roper: My Lords, in the circumstances, there Secretary of State’s complicated power to make orders is nothing I need to say. about domestic supply contracts. After all, the power under Clause 130 would in effect enable the Secretary Amendment 97 agreed. of State to categorise the terms of domestic supply contracts as “discretionary terms” or “principal terms”, which is a significant power. We welcome the government Amendments 98 to 100 amendments because they will ensure that any such order is given appropriate parliamentary scrutiny under Moved by Lord Roper the negative resolution procedure. There will be a 98: Clause 130, page 100, line 18, leave out from “information” 40-day window during which Parliament can review to “about” in line 23 the draft of the proposed modifications. 99: Clause 130, page 100, line 24, after “terms” insert “to be provided” Amendment 101 agreed. 269 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 270

During the course of what has been a frustrating Amendment 102 day—I am most grateful to my noble friend Lady Verma, her special adviser and her officials for discussing Moved by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean this amendment with me—I have found it impossible 102: After Clause 130, insert the following new Clause— to understand why the Government are not prepared “Transparency for consumers to ask Ofgem to ensure that all of the providers of gas and electricity break down their bills in a way that is The power under section 130 to modify energy supply licences may be exercised so as to make provision consistent and comparable. It should not be done in requiring a licence holder to provide information on a percentage terms, but in financial amounts. If the bill consumer bill that breaks down the total cost charged to is £300 for the quarter, it should show how much of the consumer by showing each of— that was spent on the various added components but (a) the amount that goes to Government environmental which are hidden in the bill at present. I have a horrible levies or programmes; feeling that there is, among those who are keen on (b) the amount that goes to administration costs; pursuing the green agenda, a desire to keep this quiet (c) the amount that goes to wholesale energy costs; because of the concern it would cause among the (d) the amount for raw energy costs; and electorate and in the population; namely, that we are asking some of the poorest people to pay what is a (e) any other categories of cost.” highly regressive tax. I know that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has promised to roll back these green taxes Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, my on people’s bills, which were originally the idea of the noble friend Lord Marlesford is doing his duty with leader of the Opposition, Mr Miliband, when he was the European Union Sub-Committee in Berlin and the environment Secretary. I would respectfully suggest has asked me to move this amendment, to which I to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister that have added my name with some considerable enthusiasm. if he wants to get any credit for rolling back the green I find it quite extraordinary that my noble friend put levies on people’s energy bills, it would be a good idea her name to the previous amendment, the first line of to identify them before they are rolled back, because which refers to requiring, they are likely to be subsumed into the price increases “information to be provided in a form that is clear and easy to that are being brought forward by the energy companies. understand”. Consumers will then be unaware of the impact of the In preparing for this amendment, I looked at a selection policy, which presumably would mean yet another of energy bills from various providers. They are almost burden being placed on taxpayers. In the light of impossible to understand. Some of them provide recent experience, that actually means the people in information about the amount that is being levied in the middle, who are bearing the brunt of the additional order to meet the Government’s green agenda, while tax burden which is already being levied by this coalition some do not. Some provide the information in the Government. form of percentages. But surely an absolutely basic I hope that my noble friend will feel able to accept example of justice for consumers is that they should this amendment. If she is unable to do so, I hope that know what they are paying for. If you take your car she will at least give us a clear statement of the into the garage to be serviced, you expect to see what Government’s policy on this matter. Is it the Government’s the items were that make up the bill at the end of the intention that every consumer of electricity and gas in day. What we have here, I am sorry to say, is a kind of the country will receive a bill that is broken down in conspiracy within the political classes to load on to explicit terms, showing how it is made up and what the people’s bills the cost of the green agenda in a way that costs of the Government’s policies are? They should is not transparent. include the policies in terms of insulation and the Although the Government’s rhetoric is continually policies that are paying for additional, expensive offshore about the need for transparency, as people go about and onshore wind generation. If the Government’s their day-to-day business and receive their electricity position is that consumers should not have that and gas bills, they are not able to see how much is information, can they explain exactly why they feel going on subsidising windmills and how much is being that this should not be a priority? I know that my used to provide for the transfer of electricity by building noble friend will say that the Government are in huge pylons and other infrastructure programmes. favour of transparency and that they would like to see For example, a line of pylons is being erected all the less complex bills, but we already know that the utility way down the A9 in Scotland, going past Stirling companies are capable of producing them. What we Castle, in order to deliver power from windmills which need is a conductor to make sure that they do so on a are themselves being subsidised. I believe that most consistent and comparable basis. consumers in the country have no idea that all this is My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has being levied on their bills, and as such it is a highly also said that it is important that people should be regressive tax that is being paid by the poorest. At the able to switch in order to get value for money. If you very least, whichever side of the argument one is on, it do not know how much of your bill is being spent on, is right that people should know exactly how much of say, insulation programmes—one energy provider may their bill is going towards government environmental be more efficient than another—how can you choose levies, how much is going towards wholesale energy between different providers according to their efficiency costs, how much relates to raw energy costs, and the if that information is not made available to you? A various other elements. cursory scan of some of these bills reveals that the 271 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 272

[LORD FORSYTH OF DRUMLEAN] that is regulated as much as energy has become, I regulator requires all sorts of information to be included. think this is a really excellent idea. It is something that That may be of interest, but not, I suspect, to many would become a myth-buster. My noble friend Lord customers. What they want to know is how much is Forsyth is right that there has been an embarrassment their bill and how much of it actually relates to keeping in terms of trying to shield some of these costs or the lights on in their homes and how much relates to sweep them under a carpet. That has backfired because other desirable or undesirable policies. I hope that my they have been used as an excuse by energy companies noble friend will feel able at the least to give a commitment to justify major increases when clearly they are not the that this shambles, because shambles it is if one studies major cause of the increases. One way of breaking the way in which these bills are presented, will be put that myth about the extent to which green taxes—or right quickly. I beg to move. however they are described—have contributed to the rise of energy bills would be to have this level of Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, unlike transparency. the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I am a strong supporter Which?, as noble Lords will know, is one of the of the green agenda. This is an amendment about major consumer campaign organisations and puts the transparency, and I like it. I like it a lot and I strongly green tax at 5% of total electricity bills. If you add in support it. It appeals to a belief that stands at the all the other government initiatives it comes to about heart of my politics: transparency shapes conduct, 9% of the total. I think that is the most trustworthy of knowledge and understanding. However, the current organisations because it is consumer-focused. I would arrangements for utility billing make understanding also like to see on regulated industries’ bills how much impossible in precisely the way the noble Lord, Lord UK corporation tax they pay in relation to their total Forsyth, has set out in his speech—much of which I turnover and profit. I am not saying the electricity support but, of course, much of which I do not. industry is particularly bad in that way, but such a In the last Parliament I moved a whole series of scheme would be particularly interesting in an industry amendments on a number of Bills. I call them the which, through its bills, receives a fair degree of public transparency amendments as they were all based on a subsidy towards the generation it undertakes. simple principle: shine a light, expose the truth and In principle, I think that this amendment is excellent. trust the people to make the right judgment. I believe I am not saying I would vote for it if it came to a that the issue of transparency will dominate the politics Division but more transparency would break the myths of this century. It will transcend partisan, party political and anti-green propaganda that we have seen, particularly debate. It is the principal driver behind justice, fairness, over the last couple of years. honesty in administration and personal conduct, integrity in politics, restraint in exploitation—which is what we are considering here—and general enlightenment. It Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Before the noble Lord will help restore public confidence in our public institutions sits down can he just explain—I am very puzzled—why and ultimately the private sector. he would not vote for an amendment that he believes is right? 7pm This amendment is adventurous because it is about Lord Teverson: That is because I feel there are some the private sector. The response of my party should be proposals that are even more important. If the noble a knee-jerk “yes”to this amendment. We have everything Lord wanted to test me, I suppose it would be interesting to gain from it. It would be a worthy component in the to see what I would do. Perhaps he can put me on the series of Miliband initiatives which are now regularly spot. It would be interesting in terms of gas bills but of being announced. The reality is that there has been course the figure would actually be zero. a undignified assault on the whole spectrum of environmental taxation, much of it based on untruths. Those attacks need a response. We are not winning the Viscount Ridley: My Lords, I support the amendment argument. The tabloids are slaughtering our case in of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. There is no doubt the absence of readily available information which the that the policy of putting green subsidies on to consumer public understand. The amendment by the noble Lord, bills was designed to disguise and hide the costs and Lord Forsyth, seeks to make information available hope that we would not notice. We can disagree about which the public can readily understand. whether the results are going to be pleasing or not, but If we want to win this argument, let the people we have noticed that the consumer has rumbled the decide for themselves on the basis of the facts, not ruse, so it is time, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- partisan political tabloid fiction. The provision of this Savours, said, to be transparent and honest. It would kind of information will lead to a far more sensible, help to resolve some of the disagreements we have informed debate. It will reveal the truth behind green heard again this afternoon about how much green taxation. The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is to be levies are adding to bills. congratulated. I am sorry that he is not here today to There is an infographic on the Government website hear this debate which he will no doubt read. I strongly that says that £286 will be added in 2020. The Department support this amendment and I hope many of my of Energy and Climate Change says that the figure is colleagues do as well. £199. The Committee on Climate Change, as we have heard this afternoon, says it is only £100. A lot of Lord Teverson: Normally when we have bills, either these calculations leave out VAT, upgrades to the grid from supermarkets or other places, we do not actually and system integration costs. They often make unreliable have a breakdown of those costs but in an industry assumptions about wholesale gas prices and how they 273 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 274 are going to change but above all these calculations “suggestion that companies should be obliged to include information leave out the indirect bill—the cost of green levies that on consumers’ bills about Government environmental levies and is added to industrial and commercial users of electricity programmes”— who then pass it on to individual consumers through thereafter pointing out that the bills are pretty crowded the cost of goods and services. A pint of milk will be documents. My bill not only tells me what I have more expensive because of green levies paid by the incurred during the quarter in question but what my dairy and the supermarket. If you look at the quantums estimated total consumption will be and how that involved, this roughly trebles the cost of green levies, compares with the estimated total consumption of the two-thirds of which fall on commercial customers. previous year. All those things are quite interesting, The way we have of doing things at the moment is but one feels, how far does one go? underhand, regressive—as has been said—and unfair. My noble friend continued: Those who heat their homes with electricity are hit the “I agree that we must be transparent about the impact of hardest by these green levies. Contrary to what has Government environmental levies and programmes on consumer been said today, 2.9 million people in this country heat bills and that is why the Government has committed to publishing this information annually, through the Price and Bill impacts their homes with electricity and those include many of Report. In addition Ofgem produces fact sheets that provide a the poorest people. Ideally we would remove these costs breakdown of costs which make up a typical energy bill”. altogether and put them into taxation. Then the rich How many consumers are aware of those documents? would pay more of them and the poor would pay less. Even if they were aware, how would they get hold of If we cannot have that, then let us break it out honestly them? I understand the difficulty in seeking to break and transparently and see what there is. To those who down that 11%. If someone is really interested in that, say that it cannot be done and that it is too difficult, no doubt they can pursue it by looking it up on the the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has shown me one internet, where I am sure that the figures are available. of his own bills where it has been done very nicely. I I hope that my noble friend can give us some reassurance think it is definitely possible and it should be done. about the information. As my noble friend Lord Ridley Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB): My Lords, I would said, the public have rumbled that already; they now like to follow up on that point and also agree with the know that that is what is happening; hence the suggestion noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I feel I represent people in from the Prime Minister that some of it should be mid-Wales—another area which is profoundly threatened placed on taxation and not on the bills. That will no with pylons and wind farms. When I get my council doubt be considered. tax bill, the police, the fire services and everything else My noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Marlesford is listed in just the way the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, have a point here. I am not entirely sure that the letter is suggesting. I do not really see any problem in from my noble friend Lady Verma has dealt with that. bringing greater transparency which we would all like Can we not be told how people can best get hold of to see and which might help us to understand how that information if they want to? Why is it not possible these bills are put together. for every energy supplier to do what British Gas does on my bills and what Southern Electric does on a Lord Jenkin of Roding: Some years ago I moved sample bill which it has given to me, which shows the amendments to an energy Bill to the effect that the cost of government, environmental and social schemes bills should actually show the breakdown of the costs to be 11%. That does not seem an unreasonable thing on the supplier that is then charged on the bill. I was to ask for, and I shall listen to what my noble friend therefore quite pleased when I found that my electricity says with considerable interest. bills—I draw my supplies from British Gas—in fact do that. They do not show the details of what it paid up but Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB): My Lords, it is have the total cost of government, environmental and probably quite unnecessary to add to the avalanche of social schemes. It is 11%. I can understand the desirability support for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord of providing people with an opportunity to break that Forsyth, which I am sure that the Minister will accept. down and find out how that figure is made up. Just in case she is still in any doubt, I will add my When we debated this in Committee, the right support for the amendment, which is absolutely right. reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester made this case Of course, this is the anti-hypocrisy amendment. It is very strongly. As it was in Committee there was quite much needed today, when we have spent a lot of time an exchange between him and my noble friend on the discussing fuel poverty. One very good way to deal Front Bench, at the end of which my noble friend said with fuel poverty would be to keep prices down and very firmly: finance environmental and social objectives through “My Lords, as I said earlier, I am taking the amendment away general taxation. That would be socially wise and and shall reflect on what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of would assist in dealing with the problem of fuel poverty. Chester has raised. Like noble Lords, I am very keen that information is available, simple and understandable, but I am also keen to I should say that my interests recorded in the register ensure that I can deliver what I am able to. Part of that is by include the fact that I am the director of a power taking this away and giving it further consideration”.—[Official company. I am delighted not to hear boos and hisses— Report, 9/7/13; col. GC 80.] although I think that there was a silent one. There is That she did, and subsequently sent a letter to those of hypocrisy in the current criticism of the power companies, us on the Committee. I will not read the whole passage, given that this year sees the introduction of the Energy but it is headed “Information on consumer bills” and Companies Obligation and the Green Deal. The energy states: companies are obliged to spend huge sums of money “I undertook to reflect on”— on insulating domestic property. Then they are criticised the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester’s— for putting prices up. 275 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 276

7.15 pm Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con): My Lords, I, too, I do not know exactly what number would be support my noble friend Lord Forsyth. I do not think shown if a breakdown of that kind showed the amount that anyone can disagree with this amendment—although, that goes to government environmental levies or sadly, I suspect that the Minister may. It has been programmes. I do not know what is the correct number striking that there has been no disagreement on any among those listed by the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley. side of the House, and support on all sides, for this Like him, I think that it would be far better to have transparency amendment. Indeed, support has come none of them and do all this through taxation. It is not merely from all sides of the House but from all right that the public should know what the levies are. I sides of the green debate. Everybody agrees that there know that you can work it out company by company if should be transparency. Everybody agrees, as the noble you are very clever and use the website, but I do not Lord, Lord Kerr, suggested, that there should be no see why it should not be in the Bill. I therefore agree hypocrisy. There is no argument against this amendment with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. He and I might other than a desire for concealment. A desire for dispute what is myth and what is reality, but let us have concealment is not a very reputable position for the it all out there. Let us get away from all the hypocrisy. I Government to take. As a strong supporter of this totally disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, Government, I regret that they should be in the business who talked about deliberate obfuscation in energy of promoting concealment, for that is what this is bills. That is absolutely not the case. If the regulator about. required the companies to produce information as set If the amendment is not carried and the Government out in the amendment, the companies would, in my do not get the credit for introducing this transparency, view, be delighted to do it. sooner or later—I suspect it will be sooner rather than later—one of our great newspapers, maybe the Daily Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I hate to see Mail, will run a great campaign, saying that the my noble friend Lady Verma surrounded, as though Government are concealing the position and that she is having to defend the OK Corral. She has defended consumers should be told. Eventually the Government the Bill, with its many complexities, with superb clarity will have to give in. It will be a great triumph for the and energy, but in this case, I see the walls closing in Daily Mail, or whichever newspaper it is, and it will be around her. It seems to me that the case is nearly a great defeat for the Government. It is very foolish for unanswerable. I will give her one defence. the Government to go into this knowing they will We all have our own experience. I am currently get—I do not know whether this is a parliamentary resident in London. My gas bill specifically says that expression—a bloody nose. So I ask my noble friend 19.3% is added as a result of green levies, charges and to think again. She is skilful and politically aware. Her taxes. I imagine that that includes VAT. That probably officials are not—that is not their job. She should have sounds too much. Some clarity would make clear the nous to accept this amendment, which has been so whether it was too much or too little. On the other reasonably proposed by my noble friend Lord Forsyth hand—this is possibly the only argument against the and so widely, indeed universally, supported on all amendment—it does not show all the other green sides of the House. elements locked into the charge that the energy company makes as it delivers the gas or electricity before all Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP): My Lords, very those identifiable levies and taxes. briefly, I, too, support this amendment. My only regret My noble friend Lord Ridley reminded us that the is that perhaps it does not go far enough in suggesting costs involved in the accelerated decarbonisation that all the various environmental levies should be programme—driven by various EU directives, among broken down to show how much has been spent on other things, I cannot resist saying—the closing down wind power, and what percentage of electricity consumed of coal-fired power stations and our need to replace and paid for came from wind. If that were revealed to our nuclear fleet at colossal cost to the consumer in the general public through this amendment, it would future, are already incorporated in the final price of hasten the end of the absurd and socially unfair wind the gas or electricity product before any of those farm project. additional taxes. The real cost of the whole programme— which may or may not be worth it; we are not debating Lord Whitty: My Lords, this has been an interesting that now, although I have my views—is not in the debate. Nobody who spoke was against transparency same league as the very small figures we heard earlier of costs. In passing, as an avid reader of the Daily from my noble friend Lord Deben and others for the Mail, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, that the marginal additional cost of the identifiable levies. Mail has made a pretty good job of drawing the We really need to take a step forward on that front. consumer’s attention to the fact that there are such My noble friend Lord Marlesford has, rightly, been charges—although not always accurately, as the noble arguing about these things for many years. The time Lord, Lord Teverson, implied. It may be that from all has come when, if there is to be a sensible debate points of view that a different form of transparency about the price being paid, who should bear that cost, would make things clearer. how regressive it should be and how much of the My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours hoped to burden the poor, and particularly the older poor, get a knee-jerk reaction from his Front Bench in should bear, the case is almost unanswerable for requiring support of this, and that was my initial inclination. I energy suppliers to say what charges they are making, am in favour of transparency for consumers. I am not what is the origin of the charges and how they make in favour of concealing any costs which make up the up the total bill. bill, including those imposed by the Government, 277 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 278 whether the charges were started under the previous the first couple of sentences, and look at it in a rather Government or were, like the carbon floor price, started wider context, perhaps coming back at Third Reading by this Government. The problem all Governments with a rejigged amendment. However, I cannot support have with this is that it is all very well to argue for this the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. all going onto direct taxation—intellectually that must be the case and in terms of fairness one can argue Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank my noble friend it—but I am afraid that there are those in government, Lord Forsyth for moving the amendment on behalf of one of whom is not unknown to the noble Lord, Lord my noble friend Lord Marlesford and the right reverend Howell, who would object to significant amounts of Prelate the Bishop of Chester. I sympathise with the money coming from direct taxation. To be frank, I do aims behind this amendment. Consumers have a right not think any Government would easily be persuaded, to know what they are paying for, particularly when it having put these charges on consumer bills, to move is a basic essential, such as energy. The Government them back to direct taxation. However, that option is recognise the importance of providing clear and consistent always there. information about the content of bills. Every year my The other, less drastic option is to make these department publishes a breakdown of costs that make charges less regressive, because they are effectively a up an energy bill along with a detailed assessment of poll tax. However, I am not completely joining the the impacts of our policies. We feel strongly that surrounding of the Minister on this because, while it is suppliers should be open and honest about the costs right to seek transparency, it is not right to do so in that they incur, and noble Lords will have heard my order to attack the Government’s green or social charges. colleagues in the other place repeating this call in We should look at the totality of costs which make up recent weeks. the consumer bill. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is right, but it needs to go further. 7.30 pm The corporations have used the green charges to Our priority is to make bills as useful as possible for explain price rises. Sometimes they have been right consumers and to ensure that they have the clearest and sometimes they have been, at best, misleading. information possible to help them engage in the market. There are other things which go on within supply We want to see key information presented clearly and companies. We do not know the cost of the network. simply, including information on the cheapest tariffs Network charges are a significant part of costs. Nor available to them. We want the information that suppliers do we know how the internal finances of the energy provide on bills to prompt consumers to consider companies operate. Some of these companies are vertically whether they are getting the best deal that they can integrated. Are they buying from themselves? What is and to empower them to shop around. Ofgem’s retail the actual price that is reflected in the bill? market review proposals are designed to do just that, The Minister should take this away and look at how and have required suppliers to make a major overhaul we would break down all costs in a way which consumers of their bill design in order to comply with the new could understand, and which did not highlight just requirements. one aspect of them. With my noble friend Lord I do not want to pre-empt the work that is going to Campbell-Savours and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, be done by the Cabinet Office as laid out by the Prime I support green charges. I do not think they are geared Minister in the context of the competition test. My in the proper way, and perhaps schemes funded by noble friend is aware that I am sympathetic to the idea taxation might be better, but I am in favour of green of ensuring that consumers know exactly what they charges. I am also unafraid of scrutinising them and are paying for. getting greater transparency, but that should be done in the context of looking at all the costs which make I have listened very carefully to arguments from up a bill. across the House. Given the strength of feeling shown in today’s debate, I would like to take away the arguments The list here is incomplete. If it had been a longer that have been made and perhaps follow through with list, or if it had stopped as a general principle at the noble Lords who are happy to discuss with me how to word “consumer” in the last line of the main paragraph, better look at this amendment. In the mean time, my I think that the Minister could accept it and I would noble friend needs to recognise that I and the Government support her. I hope she— have a commitment to transparency and clarity on bills. While I undertake to take my noble friend’s Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: How can the noble Lord amendment away, I reassure noble Lords that it is not say that the list is incomplete when the last item on about not wanting clarity and greater transparency; it it is, is also about ensuring that consumers do not get an “any other categories of cost”? overload of information on their bills that will make it even harder for them to disaggregate what they are actually paying for. With that undertaking to take this Lord Whitty: Because it draws attention to the first away and to work with noble Lords, I hope that my four, which relate to other matters. It does not allow noble friend will withdraw his amendment. for the lumping together of tax costs and environmental charges, as some companies voluntarily do. Rather than end with a vague, catch-all phrase we should be Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I am most balanced, we should look at the totality of costs and grateful to my noble friend and to colleagues around we should list them. I hope that the Minister will take the House who have spoken in support of this amendment. away the spirit of this amendment and the wording of It is a remarkable thing to have an amendment that 279 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 280

[LORD FORSYTH OF DRUMLEAN] (3G) The Secretary of State must publish details of any unites the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, with the noble Lord, modifications made under section 130(1) as soon as reasonably Lord Pearson of Rannoch, and I do not think that practicable after they are made.” even the speeches from the Front Benches could quite bring themselves to oppose it. Amendments 103 and 104 agreed. I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to take this away, think about it again and talk to people Amendment 104A about it. Of course, the very last thing that I want is to create a Division and thereby put my noble friend Moved by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Lord Teverson, not to mention many of his colleagues 104A: After Clause 132, insert the following new Clause— on those Benches, in a position where they might have “Carbon monoxide detection to vote against something that they thought was the (1) The Secretary of State may make regulations to ensure— right thing to do. (a) any particular class of residential premises is fitted with Rather wisely, my noble friend Lord Lawson pointed an appropriate carbon monoxide alarm where any out that this matter has considerable strength of feeling carbon fuel burning appliance is in situ, in the country behind it, and it would be a pity if this (b) the supply, sale and fitting of a carbon monoxide alarm cause were taken up by a tabloid newspaper, for example. may be undertaken by any registered carbon fuel burning It would be an even greater source of concern to me if appliance engineer, smart meter installer or by local that proved to be more influential than the combined authority fire and rescue service personnel. voices around this Chamber. If it were taken up by a (2) Regulations under this section shall be contained in a tabloid newspaper, judging by the brief that the Minister statutory instrument which shall be laid before Parliament and has been given by her department, I would not want to subject to annulment by resolution of either House of Parliament.” be the press officer responding to the inquiries because the Government have nothing to say on this. Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): My Lords, the This is not an issue about whether we are for or amendment before the House today is greatly simplified against decarbonisation or whether we are sceptics or from the one that I tabled in Committee. It is a enthusiasts—it is an issue of trust and transparency. I regulation-making power, and that is all. It would welcome the Minister’s comments that she is sympathetic, allow the Government time to gather information that she believes in transparency and that she would from the review that was helpfully announced today. like to get there, but she is sounding a touch like St Northern Ireland and Scotland have already introduced Augustine. Still, I take her commitment seriously, even a requirement to fit carbon monoxide alarms when though it is a commitment that she made earlier, in new or replacement boilers or heating appliances are Committee. Therefore, while giving notice that we will installed in a dwelling. In England and Wales a domestic return to this at a later stage in the Bill if no beef is carbon monoxide alarm is required only when a new produced following what has been a widespread consensus or replacement solid fuel appliance is installed, and position in the debate, I beg leave to withdraw the does not apply to other types of fossil fuel. amendment. So far as we know, there has never been a death from carbon monoxide in the UK when an audible Amendment 102 withdrawn. alarm has been present. The first part of the amendment concerns a recommendation from the inquiry by the Clause 131: Section 130: procedure etc All-Party Parliamentary Carbon Monoxide Group, which I chair, which recommended that the Gas Safety Amendments 103 and 104 (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 be amended Moved by Baroness Verma to require all rented properties to be fitted with an audible carbon monoxide alarm, manufactured to 103: Clause 131, page 102, line 13, leave out paragraph (a) European Standard EN 50921. The amendment’s wording 104: Clause 131, page 102, line 21, leave out subsections (3) would ensure that any property, including local authority and (4) and insert— housing, rented housing, holiday lets, rented static “(3A) Before making modifications under section 130(1) the Secretary of State must lay a draft of the modifications before caravans and other high-risk properties received attention Parliament. around carbon monoxide that they currently lack. All (3B) If, within the 40-day period, either House of Parliament carbon fuels, including biomass, are covered in the resolves not to approve the draft, the Secretary of State may not text of the amendment. take any further steps in relation to the proposed modifications. As I said in Committee, recorded figures on carbon (3C) If no such resolution is made within that period, the monoxide poisoning are the tip of an iceberg. The true Secretary of State may make the modifications in the form of the draft. morbidity and mortality remain unrecorded. The current (3D) Subsection (3B) does not prevent a new draft of proposed increases in fuel prices, along with the increased cost modifications being laid before Parliament. of living, mean that many are likely to forgo the (3E) In this section “40-day period”, in relation to a draft of annual servicing of appliances. Initiatives to increase proposed modifications, means the period of 40 days beginning home insulation have decreased draughts in houses, with the day on which the draft is laid before Parliament (or, if it effectively making them sealed units, so that if carbon is not laid before each House of Parliament on the same day, the monoxide is produced the concentration steadily rises later of the 2 days on which it is laid). and thereby endangers life. (3F) For the purposes of calculating the 40-day period, no account is to be taken of any period during which Parliament is The second part of the amendment relates to fire dissolved or prorogued or during which both Houses are adjourned and rescue services, such as the Chief Fire Officers for more than 4 days. Association voluntary Blue Watch scheme, which attempts 281 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 282 to address the national absence of carbon monoxide took it upon themselves to install a carbon monoxide alarms. It would allow others who fit or service fuel indicator and alarm in that room before they left. I sources or appliances or meter fuel usage to supply, thought that that was excellent; the industry was starting sell and fit an alarm. A co-ordinated fire rescue service to get ahead of the problem. However, I hope that the response was shown with smoke detectors. Before the Government will pursue this agenda in whatever way regulations changed, about 8% of homes had smoke they feel is appropriate in order to ensure that more of detectors; now over 80% of households have a working the tragedies which have happened in the past do not smoke alarm. happen in the future. The final part of the amendment would require a statutory instrument to be laid. That would ensure The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, that Parliament was aware of the progress being made Department for Communities and Local Government in addressing this silent killer, and would demonstrate (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con): My Lords, as I how seriously the Government were taking the issue of said at Oral Questions this afternoon, I am very these preventable deaths. I beg to move. grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for raising this issue, both at Questions and by bringing Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, I forward this amendment this evening. She has given us support the noble Baroness. I speak as president of a clear description of the effects of carbon monoxide CO-Gas Safety. Like the noble Baroness, for many poisoning and the terrible consequences that it can years I have been concerned about the lack of action have on victims and their loved ones. As I think I in relation to carbon monoxide poisoning. As she indicated at Questions today, this is something that said, the official figures disguise the true extent of the the Government take very seriously indeed. problem. Because the official figures have not really I will start by reminding your Lordships, as some reflected the size of the problem, various agencies, noble Lords who have contributed tonight have reflected particularly the Health and Safety Commission, have already, that the most important element that we must never really been prepared to take this issue seriously. ensure is in place is effective public awareness and The noble Baroness has found an ingenious way to education of the risks around carbon monoxide poisoning bring this to your Lordships’ attention within the and of the fact that safety measures apply to people Energy Bill. whether they live in homes that they own or homes This afternoon, the Minister gave a very welcome that they rent. announcement in relation to a government review. As time is short, and noble Lords are keen to move However, we would like to see this issue go further. All onto other business, I will not go through the measures that my noble friend is doing is setting a framework in detail, but they have been increased recently and are within which the Government can take action following quite extensive in ensuring that the public are aware of such a review. I think it particularly important that it the risks. As I mentioned at Questions today, there are gives the Government a regulation-making power. As now warnings on the sale of disposable barbecues, for the noble Baroness has said, not only are the figures instance, and Ofgem has placed a requirement on gas just the tip of the iceberg but there is a real concern at distribution network operators to ensure that they the moment about the cost of servicing appliances. If raise awareness. One of the important reasons why people put that off, particularly because of concerns they are the right people to raise awareness, rather about the cost of living at the moment, the risk to than the suppliers, is that the network providers are many people will be greater. For that reason, I hope constant in the supply of gas to people’s homes as they that the Government might be sympathetic. If not, are in charge of the pipes, while consumers are encouraged perhaps the noble Baroness will decide to press this at often to switch between suppliers in order to get the some point. I hope that she does. best deal that they can for their energy bills.

Lord Teverson: Regrettably, my Lords, as has already 7.45 pm been mentioned, my noble friend Lady Maddock is in Of course regulation has its place. Following a Berlin on an EU Select Committee. It seems to be the comprehensive review of building regulations by the place to be this afternoon. I know that she is very keen previous Government, new regulations were brought to support this amendment. in in 2010 that require the installation of a carbon We hear of many tragedies that have happened monoxide alarm when a new or replacement solid-fuel because of this silent killer, often, but not exclusively, appliance is installed. I note what my noble friend within rented accommodation. It is perhaps worth Lord Teverson said about the installers of his wood-burner. reminding those of us who are landlords in any way The new regulations actually require the noble Lord to that we are already under an obligation to have our have a carbon monoxide detector. gas installations checked. I think it would make sense for a way to be found, without requiring more bureaucracy or a lot of extra work, to include carbon monoxide Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for indicators through a clause of this sort. putting me right on that. I shall no longer praise my installer but say “quite right, too”. I had a new wood-burner fitted in my house recently. Although carbon monoxide is often thought about in connection to traditional gas boilers, I was reminded Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Very good. All new gas by my installer that wood-burning stoves can be far appliances are subject to various standards laid down more dangerous than gas boilers in this area. They by the European Union. People in rented accommodation 283 Energy Bill[LORDS] Health: Birth Defects 284

[BARONESS STOWELL OF BEESTON] Before I conclude, it is worth repeating that the are covered by the requirement on landlords in the gas noble Lord’s Government did a very comprehensive safety regulations to ensure that there is an annual gas review of building regulations in 2009 and concluded safety check that the regulations they should introduce are the ones As discussed at Questions today, we in Government that I have just spoken about, which apply to the new feel that the real risk is to those people who live in wood-burner that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has rented accommodation where their landlords are not had installed in his house. I commend the work that reputable or do not take care properly of the property his Government did, but the point that I am making, that they rent out. We are putting in place a package while he is pressing me, it that it is not so long since his of measures that we think will lead to greater safety own Government did a very thorough piece of work for those who are in rented accommodation. As I said and concluded that the regulations should be limited earlier today, I am pleased to announce that we have as they are currently. decided to extend the scope of the review announced a All that said, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, couple of weeks ago, so that it considers whether there Lady Finlay, not least because of my recent arrival in is a need to require the installation of carbon monoxide this post and this being the first opportunity I have alarms in privately rented housing. We are working on had to consider these points and respond to a debate the matters to be covered in this review but I envisage on this matter. I am happy to reflect further on this in that they will include questions as to whether the light of today’s debate. Of course, I will discuss this actions that I talked about earlier today are sufficient matter further with my ministerial colleagues and, if to raise and maintain awareness or whether other the noble Baroness is willing, have a further conversation approaches, including regulation, might be needed. with her before we reach Third Reading. On that basis, When we think about regulation, we need to consider I hope that she feels able to withdraw her amendment. how any regulatory approach sits with building regulations, fire safety rules and housing standards regulations, Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I am most grateful to because there are overlapping regulatory regimes. We the Minister, who has already met with me prior will certainly want to look at the interaction with to this debate and been most helpful. I accept her offer regulations on smoke alarms and perhaps include the to look at this again, discuss it further and come back scope for promoting combined carbon monoxide and at Third Reading. Therefore, I will not be pressing my smoke alarms. amendment tonight. Clearly, there are a lot of technical issues to consider, but once we have completed the review, if regulation is Amendment 104A withdrawn. considered to be the right course of action, we must take all the necessary steps so that it is done in a Consideration on Report adjourned until not before proportionate and targeted way and interested parties, 8.52 pm. including housing groups and landlords, are properly consulted. The last thing that we would want would be ineffective regulation that did not result in the outcomes Health: Birth Defects that we all want—reduction in deaths and in the Question for Short Debate effects of carbon monoxide poisoning—and that made the situation even worse by forcing up rents or 7.52 pm discouraging good landlords from being in the market, thereby limiting choice to renters. Asked by Lord Rooker To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am very they have made of the impact of fortifying white grateful to the Minister for her constructive response flour with folic acid on the number of pregnancies up to this point, when she came to the noble Baroness’s affected by neural tube defects. actual amendment. Surely it is not the contents of the regulation that are being determined here; what the noble Baroness is seeking to do is to give the Government Lord Rooker (Lab): My Lords, I am very pleased to a regulation-making power that can then be constructed have the opportunity to raise the subject of fortifying in the light of the review that they have undertaken. Of white flour with folic acid in the interests of public course, the Minister says that if it were decided that health. regulation was needed in the future, she would find the Deficiencies in folic acid have been found to lead to vehicle for it. We all know the difficulty of finding neural tube birth defects, including spina bifida and suitable legislative opportunities in this area—now is hydrocephalus. It is both a national and an international the time. I really hope that she will give this further issue. Public health policy has been to encourage those consideration. planning to become pregnant to ensure a voluntary input of folates, either by supplement or by folate-rich Baroness Stowell of Beeston: As much as I was very foods, in that crucial period covering conception and happy to give way to the noble Lord, and I had the first 12 weeks. However, this policy is known to fall finished the point that I was making at that time, the on deaf ears in some socioeconomic groups, and does noble Lord still managed to intervene before I had not cover the issue of unplanned or unintended finished making all the points that I wanted to make pregnancies. In some countries, where bread is part of today. I hope that by the time I finish—in what is the staple diet, it has been found that fortifying bread going to be a matter of seconds—he will feel a bit flour with folic acid can cover both the issues of the more reassured by what I have to say. target group and the unplanned pregnancy. 285 Health: Birth Defects[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Health: Birth Defects 286

Bread has been a staple food in the UK for centuries. A study in the American Journal of Medical Genetics Consumption has fallen a little but it still contains in 2010 found that food fortification with folic acid more than 10% of our daily intake of key nutrients prevents neural tube defects but not other types of and remains a major source of them. Since the 1940s, congenital abnormalities. The study covered more than just after the war, most of our bread flour has been 3 million births in Chile, Argentina and Brazil over a fortified with four added nutrients, and that is still the 25-year period, according to the authors, Lopez-Camelo case today. On 5 August this year, at the start of the et al. The paper by Blencowe et al in 2010 in the Recess, Defra announced the result of the consultation International Journal of Epidemiology concluded: on the bread and flour regulations, which was that the “The evidence supports both folic acid supplementation and mandatory fortification of flour will continue on health fortification as effective in reducing neonatal mortality from NTDs”. and scientific grounds. So it works. The idea of folic acid fortification has been around The latest study, published earlier in the year in the for many years. I can confirm from my own personal Lancet, clears the way to vastly improve the health experience that in 1999, as Minister for food safety—before position in the UK. We start from a low position. my Food Standards Agency days—I was lobbied on England has the highest rate of unintended or unplanned the issue by a leading scientist during a journey to a pregnancies after the USA—well in excess of 200,000. food conference. My initial reaction was, “It’s mass As such, the women concerned will see no need for medication”. But I soon realised it was not then, and it supplementation. So far as the pregnancies that are is not now. By 2007, Her Majesty’s Government had affected by neural tube defects are concerned, there been advised by the independent Scientific Advisory are hidden and avoidable family tragedies involved. Committee on Nutrition and the Food Standards Agency to go down the route of mandatory fortification. The best figures I have—they are a little old but I This advice was reinforced in 2009-10, during my term am advised they are the best—are those used by as chair of the Food Standards Agency. SACN, the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition, Scientists involved in the research, such as Professor in its report, drawn to my attention by the Shine Nicholas Wald of the Wolfson Institute of Preventive charity. In England and Wales, there were 178 neural Medicine, have chased the issue up over the years. tube defect-affected births from 853 neural tube defect- Others, such as Professor Colin Blakemore, have raised affected pregnancies. That means that there were more generally the issue of the lack of feedback from 675 terminations. In Northern Ireland, there were 11 government on advice from scientists, where there affected births and no terminations. In Scotland, there seems to be no clear decision on policy or action to be were 49 affected pregnancies with 50% terminations. taken, or not taken, on the basis of the advice. He That means that there were more or less 238 neural cited folic fortification as a recent example. tube defect-affected births and 913 affected pregnancies, with around 700 terminations. These will be late, Delay has been caused by some scientific doubts following the 20-week scan, when neural tube defects regarding the effect of too much folate in the diet, show. In summary, therefore, there are 150 to 200 which might be the cause of some rare cancers. Justifiably, babies born with neural tube defects leading to spina Ministers and Chief Medical Officers required reassurance bifida and other conditions, with a total of 750 to on this aspect. I believe—and this is why I am raising 1,000 pregnancies. Eighty per cent of the neural tube the issue now, after leaving the FSA—that the publication defect-affected pregnancies are terminated. in March this year of the paper by Vollset et al in the Lancet puts the concerns to rest. The study analysed Nothing I say diminishes my life-long support for a data on 49,621 individuals in 13 evenly randomised woman’s right to chose, but it is self-evident that trials and found that there was no significant effect of decisions for termination based on neural tube defect- folic acid supplementation on the incidence of cancer affected pregnancies would decline with folate increases. of the large intestine, prostate, lung, breast or any More than one in 1,000 pregnancies in the UK is specific site. Furthermore, in interpretation, the scientists affected each year. Folic fortification has been shown pointed out that the fortification of flour and cereal in the countries that have a mandatory policy to have products involves doses of folic acid that are on average prevented between 27% and 50% of cases of neural an order of magnitude smaller than the doses used in tube defects. Based on these figures, we have a potential the trials they examined. to save 100-plus neural tube defect-affected births per year in UK; and significantly we could prevent hundreds On 1 July the noble Earl, Lord Howe, the Health of late terminations every year. Putting it crudely, the Minister for England, told Parliament that Ministers were current reduction in the number of babies born with “taking stock”. Has that included talking to Ministers neural tube defects is actually brought about by the in the other three countries of the UK? More than termination of pregnancies. I do not like the idea that 50 countries are fortifying flour with folic acid, including in the past some DoH officials have claimed that NTD the United States, Canada, Iran, Argentina and South is well managed. Africa. So far, none in Europe are, due to the concerns I have mentioned, which are no longer justified. The Prime Minister said at PMQs on 27 February Australia introduced mandatory folic fortification that, in September 2009. It has been found, in a paper by “conditions such as spina bifida have come down and that folic BrownetalintheMedical Journal of Australia in acid has an important role to play”.—[Official Report, Commons, January 2011, that, 27/2/13; col. 311.] “the introduction of mandatory fortification with folic acid has They have “come down” as terminations go up, due to significantly reduced the prevalence of folate deficiency in Australia, the rate of diagnosis getting more accurate. What we including in woman of childbearing age”. need is primary prevention. Putting folic acid in white 287 Health: Birth Defects[LORDS] Health: Birth Defects 288

[LORD ROOKER] There are people who object on principle to what bread flour is not mass medication. Those who wish to they regard as mass medication. The noble Lord, Lord avoid it just avoid white sliced bread. It gets to the Rooker, again has made very clear that it is not without groups of women most difficult to get to. consent. We are all aware of the objections to fluoridation I want to hear what assessment the Government of drinking water. I know that there have been discussions have made of the impact over the past seven months about removing calcium fortification in flour, although while they have been taking stock of the operation in these seem to have stalled. Few people realise that, as England and what discussions have taken place with well as calcium, our white flour is already fortified the devolved Administrations and their Chief Medical with thiamine, iron and niacin. They also ask why they Officers. It is better to have a UK solution, as I know should have to have their products made with flour that flour mills are not always in the most convenient fortified to prevent disease in a very small minority. I locations for four separate policies. believe very strongly that, in the case of folic acid, flour should be fortified. This belief is endorsed by The science policy advice to government is to do it. researchers at the Institute for Science and Society at Scientific concerns have been raised and cleared. It is the University of Nottingham in their 2007 report The not mass medication; it saves lives and misery, and it Ethical Implications of Options for Improving the Folate saves money. It reduces the hidden cost of the present Intake of Women of Reproductive Age. policy, namely the costs of terminations as a management tool. It produces more healthy babies and improves The prevalence of neural tube defects started to fall public health. before folic acid supplementation was introduced in the 1970s. Perhaps the abortion laws that came in Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, one around that time had some effect. When I was newly speaker has scratched. That will allow us to stretch married I was told to avoid eating green potatoes speaking times from seven to nine minutes, provided because these were seen as the cause of spina bifida. that the next four speakers all observe that when 9 The prevalence fell quite steeply for about 20 years but comes up on the clock, they stop. it has remained stubbornly at between eight and 15 per 10,000 pregnancies since the 1990s. One possible reason could be that nearly half of pregnancies are unplanned; 8.03 pm by the time a woman finds she is pregnant it is too late The Countess of Mar (CB): My Lords, I do not for the supplements to have the greatest benefit. think I am likely to get to nine minutes. I am very Most of the UK population eats white flour in grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for bringing some form or another as part of their staple diet, this subject to our attention this evening. although we must not forget those who are gluten Under normal circumstances, I would prefer that sensitive and do not eat wheat for medical or other young women should all have a good balanced diet reasons. A standard loaf of bread is relatively cheap with plenty of fresh fruit and leafy vegetables, regardless and filling. It tends to be a substantial part of the diet of whether or not they were considering pregnancy, to of those who cannot afford fresh fruit and vegetables give them sufficient folic acid to prevent neural tube or other foods rich in folic acid, such as offal and defects and, come to that, a very large number of pulses. It seems likely that fortified bread has a better other subclinical conditions linked with folic acid chance of reaching the target than education or deficiency. Unfortunately, life does not work like that. promotional campaigns to encourage this group of Many young people—women and girls in particular—lead women to take folic acid as a precautionary measure. rather frenetic lives and tend to eat on the hoof. Food It would also catch those who have unplanned pregnancies. which takes little preparation and cooking is the easiest way for them to get their calories. Many have little idea As well as preventing neural tube defects, folic acid of the nutritional values of the food they eat and may have a role in reducing congenital heart defects, cooking a good, balanced meal comes very low in cleft lips, limb defects and urinary tract abnormalities. their order of priorities. Others simply cannot afford It may also help to protect the unborn infant from to buy fresh green vegetables and fruit on a regular disease in the mother. It seems to be important that basis. While some cereal and snack manufacturers vitamin B12 levels are checked as there is concern that fortify their products with folic acid, these too might high prenatal levels of folic acid combined with low be out of range for those on benefits. No amount of B12 may cause epigenetic changes. There is a complex education or health promotion material can overcome interaction between B12, folic acid and iron. As our these problems. flour is already fortified with iron we would need to ensure that B12 deficiency would not be masked by As a mother and grandmother of healthy girls, I the other two. find it hard to imagine the anguish and grief that a pregnant woman suffers when told that she is bearing As the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has already said, a baby with neural tube defects. The noble Lord, Lord concerns have been voiced about the possibility that Rooker, has pointed out the abortion rates for this folic acid fortification might mask vitamin B12 deficiencies condition. She and her partner have to decide whether in the elderly and that it might cause bowel cancer, but they wish to continue with the pregnancy. She has the recent research would appear to negate both these added knowledge, and the guilt that would accompany concerns, particularly for the elderly. There would it, that if she had taken folic acid before she became appear to be very little, if any, risk from fortified bread pregnant, or immediately she knew that there was a to the general population—indeed, it might even prevent possibility that she was pregnant, she might have a number of subclinical conditions which could become prevented potential disaster. serious, particularly in the elderly. 289 Health: Birth Defects[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Health: Birth Defects 290

The one small concern that I have is that, if white flour When I was born, my parents were told that I had is fortified, it will be difficult to determine the folic acid spina bifida. I do not think that they really knew what status of women who want to become pregnant or who it meant. There was little education and disabled people are pregnant because we will not know their average daily were not as visible in society as they are now. My parents intake. The Department of Health recommends that, were also told that if I had been born just a few years “‘all women who could become pregnant should take earlier, because of my condition, I would have been 400 microgrammes”— taken away and not fed. that is, 0.4 milligrams— My parents were also given a whole host of reasons “of folic acid per day as a medicinal or food supplement prior to why I had spina bifida. My mother was blamed. She conception until the twelfth week of pregnancy”. was told that she had not eaten enough vegetables, The RDA for folate equivalents is 600 micrograms. even though she was virtually a vegetarian. My father The BMA suggests that the guidance level set for the was then blamed because of other family conditions UK of 1 milligram a day is satisfactory, or illnesses which were then a precursor. The final “provided there are appropriate controls on mandatory fortification reason we were given was that it was more common in to ensure that individuals do not exceed the upper intake level of 1mg per day”. areas of coal mining or industry, so therefore the There must be huge variations in the amount of figures were much higher for the Welsh mining valleys, white bread and other white flour products that UK Nottingham and Newcastle. I grew up in Cardiff; I do consumers eat on an average daily basis. How are we not know whether that is good or bad. to ensure that young women get enough folic acid to I am very pleased that there is better knowledge protect their unborn children, or that the elderly do not today. Although everything I have read says that spina get too much? What advice about additional supplements bifida was not hereditary, I and other family members will be given to women of child-bearing age who do were told that there could be a slightly higher incidence not eat a lot of bread and to those who have had a of the condition, and I was advised to take a double previous pregnancy with neural tube defects or who dose of folic acid. Obviously I was able to take it have a genetic risk? We need to be cautious about because my daughter was part of a planned pregnancy, depending too much upon fortification of white flour but we must consider unplanned pregnancies and, with folic acid to solve all the problem of neural tube indeed, women taking folic acid for the correct amount defects. Nevertheless, that is not an excuse for not of time. When I was pregnant, it was not made that doing it. clear that it was meant to be for 12 weeks of pregnancy. I support the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who is I know that, in my own case, I experienced dreadful himself supported by the BMA, the Scientific Advisory day sickness—I dreamed that it might just become Committee on Nutrition, the Department of Health’s morning sickness—and, as a result, I was never entirely Committee on Medical Aspects of Food and Nutrition sure of the amounts I had taken or whether it had Policy and the Food Standards Agency. I hope that the remained in my body. I took several pills a day, just Government will listen to him. hoping that some of it would benefit me. I treated taking folic acid in the same way as I thought about my diet; I do not drink or smoke. It was about doing 8.11 pm the best I could for my unborn child. Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB): My Lords, I thank I read with interest the documents produced by the the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for tabling this interesting British Medical Association in April this year about debate. As ever, your Lordships’ Chamber gives us a the falling rates of spina bifida. Like my noble friend wonderful opportunity to think about certain topics Lady Mar, I believe that part of it is about scanning in more detail and to challenge ourselves and our opinions. and the opportunity to discuss and offer termination Until this debate was tabled I had not previously in a different way. That certainly was not available considered other methods of taking folic acid apart when I was born. Certainly, it appears that the best from the pills that were available over the counter. My medical advice is that taking folic acid will contribute first thought was that I was not sure that it was a to preventing this condition. terribly good idea—mass medication, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has said. However, I thought of This is a difficult subject to discuss because it would other areas where there is fortification, such as fluoride be so easy to move into a wider discussion on scanning in the water, mentioned by my noble friend Lady Mar and termination, but that is not what this debate is who raises some good points on the level of folic acid about. In a note which I received from Jackie Bland, that should be taken. I came to realise that it is the chief executive of Shine—the charity for people probably a reasonable idea if it can be done in the with spina bifida and hydrocephalus—she indicated right way and not cause any other issues. that we might well have a situation where it seems I felt compelled to speak because I have spina many of us are more comfortable managing the occurrence bifida—that is why I am a wheelchair user—and perhaps of spina bifida through scanning and termination, if the benefits of folic acid had been known when my when fortification combined with more robust public parents were planning a family, my life might have health information could reduce occurrence by up to been very different. Many of the opportunities that I 72%. This is really interesting. have experienced are due to the fact that there was Perhaps there is also a failure to acknowledge the little knowledge in this area, whether it was around extremely traumatic consequences of a late-pregnancy supplementation or various scans that are now routinely termination. I do not believe that termination is an available. For me personally, it is kind of hard to regret easy option. I also know of several people who, knowing that there was no knowledge at that time. that they are having a child with spina bifida, have 291 Health: Birth Defects[LORDS] Health: Birth Defects 292

[BARONESS GREY-THOMPSON] the defect arises very early in pregnancy. The neural chosen to carry on. Shine’s health advisers have also tube closes at 23 to 27 days after conception; that is said that many parents have reported a strong pressure before the first period is missed. By the time a woman to terminate and a sense of guilt if they choose to realises she is pregnant, it is usually too late. She has to continue. That is a consequence of the acceptance of take the folic acid before she is pregnant for it to be management by termination. We must recognise that effective and that immediately eliminates all those whatever people choose, these are hard decisions that women who do not plan their pregnancies. That is families have to take. particularly the case, for example, in single women and When I was pregnant I was asked so many times it is exacerbated in those with poor dietary habits what I would do if I knew I was going to have a child whose intake of green vegetables, the natural source of with spina bifida or who would become a wheelchair folic acid, is limited. In fact, there is a linear relationship user. I think that people were expecting me to give a between the level of folic acid in the red cells and definite, immediate answer. My response was that I plasma and the incidence of neural tube defects. The would ensure that my child had the best self-propelling higher the folate level, the lower the incidence—that is wheelchair on the market from the age that they were a clear relationship. meant to be crawling. It is about managing it, and the So how can we make sure that all women take it choices that you make. before they become pregnant? We inevitably come to I have only one question. I was wondering, when the conclusion that we should fortify our food. The researching this area, whether consideration had been Government’s own Expert Advisory Group and COMA, given to including folic acid in other food products. I the Committee on Medical Aspects of Nutrition, have do not eat a lot of bread and am not planning on been repeatedly recommending that we fortify our having another child. It is about understanding the flour with folic acid over many years. The idea is that right amount of folic acid that should be taken. everyone eating average amounts of bread will take Finally, I reiterate that I am strongly in support of about 280 micrograms, about a quarter of a milligram, prevention, in the way that I support things like the of folate per day. It is a very small amount but sufficient seat-belt law, which had a significant impact on the to prevent spina bifida in a majority of cases. We in rate at which people experienced traumatic spinal cord the UK have unfortunately not taken that advice, even injuries, or something like cycle safety. Prevention is a though more than 70 other countries around the world, positive step forward. I look forward to debating this including the USA and Canada, supplement their again in the future. flour with folic acid. Of course, there is always a reluctance to add things 8.17 pm to the diet that everyone is going to eat. Noble Lords have talked about this. Worries about side-effects and Lord Turnberg (Lab): My Lords, I, too, am grateful unexpected adverse events are always raised and it is to my noble friend Lord Rooker for bringing the subject usually wise to be cautious. In the case of folic acid to our attention and for introducing it in his usual there were worries about the possibility of two sorts of robust and forthright way. It is a privilege, too, of course, danger: that it could cause cancer; and that it might to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, cause a peripheral neuropathy in those elderly people who spoke so movingly of her personal experiences. who were also deficient in vitamin B12. This is a It is pretty obvious that spina bifida in its severe disorder of the nerves going to the arms and legs, a form is indeed a nasty disorder. It affects one or two in condition caused by a combination of B12 deficiency every 1,000 pregnancies, causes paralysis of the legs, and folic acid excess. So delay in taking up the problems with bladder and bowel control and, in some recommendations of COMA was inevitable until these children, learning difficulties. It can cause serious lifetime dangers could be eliminated. problems and distress both for the children and their Now we know from a huge number of studies that families. On top of all that, it poses a considerable they have indeed been eliminated. In the meta-analysis economic burden on the families and on the health that noble Lords have referred to of a large number of service. trials by Vollset and his colleagues in the last year, Yet we can prevent—according to my figures—about trials covered almost 50,000 individuals given a largish 70% of cases with a simple dietary manoeuvre; that is, dose of 5 milligrams a day for five years or more and by increasing the intake of folic acid in women before there was no sign of an increase in the overall number they become pregnant. It was in 1991, 22 years ago, of all cancers or of any individual specific type of that a study by the Medical Research Council was the cancer. Incidentally, these trials were done largely in first to show that we could prevent these neural tube the belief that folic acid might prevent coronary artery defects by giving mothers 4 milligrams of folic acid a disease. It did not show that, but it did show that day, before and during their pregnancy. The incidence cancers did not increase, which was a useful side-effect. went down by about 70% which was a remarkable Nor has there been any sign that the B12 deficient discovery first made here in the UK. Even much smaller neuropathy I mentioned has increased in the population doses were shown to be equally effective. Since then, it of America or Canada where they have been fortifying has been more or less routine practice to recommend their flour since 1998, 15 years ago. Incidentally, the that folic acid should be given to all pregnant women. manufacturers of breakfast cereals—All-Bran and the However, the problem that soon arose was that like—routinely fortify them with a range of vitamins, simply prescribing it to women who were already including folic acid. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady pregnant did little or nothing to prevent the disorder. Grey-Thompson, could take breakfast cereals; that It had to be given before they were pregnant, because might help her. 293 Health: Birth Defects[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Health: Birth Defects 294

It is hard now to refute the scientific evidence, I am a great admirer of the Department of Health, gathered from huge populations, that supplementing having enjoyed many happy years there, but I recognise the diet of everyone by an average of 280 micrograms long-grass briefing when I see it and that is the kiss of a day of this vitamin is harmless to the population at death. I hope that the Minister, if she cannot say that large. It clearly reduces the incidence of this nasty and the Government are going to go down this route, will burdensome disease in our children. It is more than at least give a timetable for when the Government will 20 years since we discovered that we could prevent make a definitive decision, or must we wait, month neural tube defects by this simple measure. The discovery after month, for every single paper to be peer-reviewed? was made here in the UK and it is high time we caught I think that that would be a great pity. up with much of the rest of the world and took In conclusion, I shall ask the Minister a rather advantage of what we now know. more general question coming back to the issue of advice given by health visitors and midwives in relation 8.23 pm to vitamins and minerals generally. The reason I do so Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, I am is that in September 2012 in another place my honourable delighted again to applaud my noble friend for raising friend Kate Green secured a Westminster Hall debate this matter and I hope that we can look forward to a about the rise in the incidence of rickets. She talked positive response from the Minister. My noble friend about vitamin D deficiency across large sections of the Lord Turnberg explained the science and it is clear that population and quoted a study by the Clinical Effectiveness there is very credible support for my noble friend’s position. Unit at Stockport which found a surprising lack of The Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition’s awareness among health professionals about vitamin 2006 report recommended mandatory fortification of D across eight acute and six primary care trusts in the flour to the Government. That was endorsed in 2007 by north-west. Only 24% of health visitors and just 11% the Food Standards Agency board. More recently we of midwives reported having had training in vitamin have all, I think, had a briefing from the British Medical D supplementation. I realise that this is a little distant Association which also supports folic acid fortification from folic acid, but since the Government now put of flour. I thought that the BMA was very much to the such reliance on advice given to women, does the point when it argued that the current guidance to Minister think that, as part of a wider response to the women to take folic acid supplements has a number of issues raised by my noble friend tonight, more needs limitations. As the noble Countess, Lady Mar, said it to be done to ensure that midwives and health visitors does not take account of unplanned pregnancies and, are adequately trained in providing advice in relation given that almost half of all pregnancies in the UK are to vitamins and minerals in pregnancy and before? unplanned, it is clearly an inadequate response. It is That is not a substitute for the action that my noble also a fact that poor compliance with the advice to friend wants, and I very much hope that the Government take supplements means that women planning a pregnancy will recognise that this would be the right thing to do. I only marginally increase their compliance with folic hope that the Minister will be able to make a happy acid supplement use. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey- announcement. Thompson, made some very powerful points about this and about the very hard decisions parents subsequently have to make. 8.30 pm Noble Lords have already dealt very effectively Baroness Jolly (LD): I am grateful to the noble with the concerns that have been raised about the links Lord for securing this debate on this very important between folic acid and cancer. The Scientific Advisory issue, and I thank all noble Lords for this thoughtful Committee on Nutrition, which advises the Food and informative debate. The department is considering Standards Agency, said that the evidence in relation to this issue very seriously. We know that approximately bowel cancer was insubstantial and that any increase one in every 1,000 pregnancies is affected by a neural in cases could be down to improved screening. It tube defect, which can result in miscarriage, neonatal recommended that those deemed to be at greater risk death or lifelong disability. We also know that poor of colon cancer should receive precautionary advice folate status is an established cause of neural tube on taking extra supplements containing folic acid and defect-affected pregnancies, and therefore how important that the situation should be monitored. The Chief folic acid is for women of childbearing age. I will take Medical Officer then requested further investigation your Lordships briefly through the detail of how the by the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition Government are currently taking action to reduce into the potential link between folic acid and the risk of women having insufficient levels of folate—a colorectal cancer. The committee upheld its previous risk that may result in potential neural tube defects recommendation, with an amended recommendation such as spina bifida in unborn children. to clarify the advice on supplement use for particular It is possible to get all the folate you need from food population groups. in a healthy diet, but for women who are trying to We roll forward to January 2013, when the noble conceive or are newly pregnant, getting enough particularly Earl, Lord Howe, told the House: matters. That is why, since the 1990s, the Department “Additional advice on folic acid and cancer risk was requested of Health has advised women who can become pregnant by the then Chief Medical Officer and provided by SACN in to take folic acid supplements before conception and 2009. The papers underpinning the advice from SACN have not yet all been peer-reviewed and published in a scientific journal. for the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and to increase Ministers need to very carefully consider this complicated issue their intake of folate-rich foods. That advice is promoted and would like to see all information in the public domain before as strongly as possible through all the channels we use making any decision”.—[Official Report, 8/1/13; col. WA 44.] to communicate with women and health professionals. 295 Health: Birth Defects[LORDS] Health: Birth Defects 296

[BARONESS JOLLY] fortification only if accompanied by a number of NICE guidance ensures that health professionals are other actions, including restricting voluntary fortification equipped with comprehensive advice on folic acid and of foods with folic acid, developing guidance on on action to take with women who may become pregnant. supplement use for particular population groups, and For women, advice is disseminated through a variety implementing measures to monitor evidence of long-term of sources such as the NHS Choices website, which exposure to intakes of folic acid above the guideline sets out why folic acid is important for pregnancy and upper limit per day. gives guidance on taking supplements. The Department SACN’s recommendation about monitoring and of Health also provides funds to the charity Tommy’s review explicitly reflected concerns around the potential to produce The Young Woman’s Guide to Pregnancy, for the numbers of people consuming levels of folic which advises young women to take folic acid. Start4Life, acid above the guideline upper limit. Health Ministers a campaign to give the best start in life to nought to considered it prudent to ensure that all available evidence two year-olds, gives information on five key healthy on the risk of colon cancer was peer-reviewed and in behaviours during pregnancy, one of which is taking the public domain, which noble Lords referred to folic acid and vitamin D supplements. Their leaflets earlier, and the evidence was published in the Lancet are written in a friendly and accessible style and are this January. Following publication, Ministers confirmed very popular with healthcare professionals as a tool to earlier this year that they were taking stock of the facilitate conversation with parents and expectant parents. issue. I assure the noble Lord who, as former chair of The NHS Information Service for Patients offers to the Food Standards Agency, will understand this send e-mails and texts to women and their partners in better than many, that because of the complexity of the fifth week of pregnancy to remind women to take the issue it is essential that we weigh up carefully the their folic acid. risks and benefits in coming to a decision, and that we Folic acid supplements are widely available and fully think through the implications of the other cost as little as £1 for a month’s supply, but are also recommendations made by SACN. We are now doing available on NHS prescription. Pregnant women and that, and, thanks to the expert scientific committees women who have had a child in the previous 12 months and the consideration of this by the FSA and others, are exempt from prescription charges, as are people on there is a wide range of evidence and advice to consider. certain benefits or those who qualify through the I pay tribute to the work of the voluntary sector, NHS low-income scheme. We also offer free vitamin and in particular to one organisation mentioned earlier supplements containing folic acid without an NHS in this debate, Shine, which supports individuals and prescription to pregnant women and new mothers in families as they face the challenges arising from spina very low-income families throughout the UK who are bifida. It works tirelessly to raise awareness of the supported by the Healthy Start scheme. More than importance of folic acid and in May this year held the 150,000 pregnant women and new mothers are eligible first ever national Folic Awareness Day. to claim vitamins through that scheme. However, we Noble Lords have asked many questions, and I will know that some women do not take supplements, and work through them in the time I have available. However, of those that do, some start too late. That is of if there are any still outstanding I will be happy to real concern to the Government and health professionals, write to noble Lords after the debate. The noble Lord, and an area on which the Chief Medical Officer Lord Rooker, asked whether we had talked to Ministers is keen to see action, as she set out in her recent annual in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. As noble report. Lords are aware, food and health policies are devolved In 2000 the Committee on Medical Aspects of issues and discussions on fortification outside England Food Policy first recommended the fortification of are for those Administrations. However, the views of flour with folic acid to reduce the risk of NTD-affected those authorities will be taken into consideration by births. Your Lordships will be familiar with the Ministers. developments of the scientific advice since then. The Lord Rooker: I am sorry to interrupt, but this Government are very grateful for the full advice which dismissal of devolution is symptomatic of Westminster; has been provided by consecutive expert committees it just does not do devolution. Rather than simply and for the rigour and scrutiny with which the Scientific saying that it is a matter for them, it would be better to Advisory Committee on Nutrition—better known as have a UK-wide policy. Is the Minister admitting that SACN—considered the issue for its report in 2006 and Ministers in England—this is what we are talking its subsequent reviews of evidence. The noble Lord, about here—have not discussed the matter with Ministers Lord Rooker, will know that SACN sought to understand in Scotland, who may take their own route, as they are and clarify the risks of fortification carefully as it free to do, and that the four chief medical offices have sought to make clear the benefits of its recommendation. not discussed the issue among themselves? The advisory committee concluded in 2006 that mandatory fortification of flour with folic acid would Baroness Jolly: My Lords, I am telling noble Lords reduce the risk of NTD-affected pregnancies, but that what I have been briefed. I am more than happy to there was a potential risk to some population groups, write to noble Lords and, if they are happy for me particularly older people, including a potential increased to do so, leave the letter in the Library for everyone to risk of bowel cancer. In 2007, the then CMO asked check. I will also need to respond to the noble Lord, SACN to further consider the evidence in this regard. Lord Rooker, on his question regarding terminations. In 2009, SACN’s majority view was that the new The noble Countess, Lady Mar, asked about the evidence did not provide a substantial basis for changing risks and benefits, and assessing impacts, of fortification, the original recommendation. However, it recommended giving due consideration to the implications of additional 297 Health: Birth Defects[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 298 recommendations by SACN. We will take into account “( ) Within six months of the coming into force of this section, the views of the Chief Medical Officer, who raised the the Secretary of State shall, following consultation, propose issue in her annual report, and of the devolved regulations that provide for collective redress by consumers of gas Administrations. The other point raised by the noble or electricity.” Countess was on ensuring that NTDs are avoided in pregnancy and on preventing vitamin B12 masking. Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, this amendment We need to get this right. SACN considered the amount relates to the redress element of Part 6. I approve of of folic acid to recommend and also recommended the increase in protection for consumers in the redress developing guidance on supplement use for particular provisions in the Bill and have supported them throughout. population groups, along with implementing measures However, there is a dimension that is not there, and to monitor evidence of long-term exposure to intakes there is one that has been discussed with successive of folic acid. We are carefully weighing the benefits Governments but has never been fully put into operation. and risks of SACN’s recommendations and will take The present Government, in their consultation through account of all views. BIS on consumer rights and protection in general, The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, asked mentioned the possibility of moving to a system of what foods would be considered for fortification. Currently, collective redress. breakfast cereals are voluntarily fortified with folic In the energy situation, the whole structure of the acid in the UK. The FSA considered other foods, market and the whole history of the scandals in relation including soft drinks, fruit juice, milk and chewing to consumers underline the need to have some collective gum, when it made that recommendation, but the resolution of these matters. If you look, company by consumption rate of these products is not considered company, at most of the mis-selling and misrepresentation, to be universal across women of child-bearing age and the overcharging, the failure in billing and the wrong would therefore not be suitable for fortification. Other billing, right up until the very recent case where Ofgem foods were also considered. Bread was finally decided fined ScottishPower, you will see that thousands, and upon as the universal food as—to answer a point raised in some cases tens of thousands, of consumers have by both noble Baronesses—it is universally consumed effectively suffered from exactly the same mistake-cum- across the population and all socioeconomic groups: misdemeanour by the relevant energy companies. more than 90% of households eat bread. Fortification At the moment, complaints against energy companies of wheat flour would also include other wheat-based are running at an all-time high—you have only to look products such as pizzas, pastries and biscuits. at the ombudsman’s figures and facts. The need for I think I have replied to several points that were raised. redress systems is very important, but if every individual consumer has to take that case either through the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, will the ombudsman or through the courts, the ombudsman’s Minister write to noble Lords—clearly the Government agenda is going to get cluttered up and the courts are will have to consider this—and set out a timetable on going to lead to individual decisions, which may be when they will come back to Parliament with an answer? different in different parts of the country. A form of collective redress for everybody who has suffered from Baroness Jolly: That sounds eminently sensible. I what the regulator will have found to be a mistake, or am happy to write to noble Lords to give them that an error, or a breach of the licence or other regulations, information. I hope that I have provided reassurance—I affecting tens of thousands of consumers, needs to be am not convinced that I have—that the Government treated in a somewhat different way. are committed to reaching the right decision on the I am not stipulating here precisely what way. There fortification of flour with folic acid, doing proper have been a number of formulations for collective justice to the work of SACN and others and ensuring redress in different sectors. The best of these was never that, while seeking to deliver the benefits, we minimise put into legislation, but was dropped during the wash-up the potential risks. In the mean time the Government at the end of the last Parliament, because the Treasury will continue to raise awareness of the need to take was proposing very effective collective redress systems folic acid supplements and are supportive of all those within the financial services sector. who are raising awareness of this issue. I thank the noble Lord for securing the debate. The Government, in their draft Consumer Rights Bill, which is now being considered in pre-legislative 8.42 pm procedures, have not followed up on what was in their consultation paper, which had a different formulation. Sitting suspended. In relation to gas and electricity, the degree to which there are large numbers of people suffering from the Energy Bill same act of a company, the fact that there are licence Report (3rd Day) (Continued) conditions attached to that and the fact that there is a whole structure of regulatory ombudsmen in that 8.52 pm area, make it a relatively easy sector, in principle, for which to produce a system of collective redress. Clause 135: Consumer redress orders My amendment requires the Secretary of State to come forward with regulations to that effect within six months of the passage of this Bill, so I am leaving the Amendment 104B Minister and her colleagues a bit of time to do this, Moved by Lord Whitty but I think the principle will be recognised. This would 104B: Clause 135, page 104, line 5, at end insert— be pretty much well supported by, I think, all the 299 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 300

[LORD WHITTY] consumers. Permitting private collective redress would consumer groups and many of those who have dealt not just encourage advocates intent on righting things with individual cases of consumer detriment which when consumers are harmed; it could also encourage have arisen within this sector. I hope that the Government litigation on the finer points of law. The cost of will consider this and, at least, give me some litigation is not cheap and this would again be passed encouragement, if not tonight then in the future, that on to consumers as a whole. they will be looking in this direction. The way in which As has been referred to in previous debates, the this industry has treated its consumers; the degree of draft Consumer Rights Bill puts forward proposals to mistrust among them and the level of redress that amend the existing collective redress regime for cases individual consumers have achieved in this sector show where competition law has been broken. These proposals, the need for something more systematic. I hope that together with the consumer redress order powers in the Minister and her colleagues will use this amendment this Bill, represent a far more streamlined and cost-effective to have another look at the issue. I beg to move. means by which consumers can be compensated. I hope that the noble Lord is reassured by my explanation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and, on that basis, will withdraw his amendment. of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am disappointed by that this amendment. Amendment 104B would require the reply because I do not think that the Minister is right Secretary of State to consult on and then bring forward in the description of consumer law. You could write regulations to allow collective redress for energy the regulations so that you would have to go to the consumers. I agree with the noble Lord that consumers ombudsman before going to such a system. The cost need to get the redress that they are due by the most to consumers of starting a process in the court is straightforward means available. I fear, however, that prohibitive but, were it a collective provision and the the introduction of collective redress in the energy ombudsman had found in a certain way, that cost sector would not achieve these aims. My concerns centre would fall on no one. mainly on the time and cost of bringing such cases. If you take the equivalent of the PPI scandal in the The noble Lord has said previously that collective financial sector, there is not a collective redress but redress offered a quicker and cheaper solution for there is a collective problem. If anything, the banks cases than if cases were pursued by individuals either probably have paid out more money than they otherwise through the ombudsman, Ofgem or the courts. This would have done had they offered a collective form of presupposes that action through the courts is the only redress right at the beginning of the process. They option available where an issue affects more than one have been obliged to try to find all sorts of people who consumer. That is not the case. One of the reasons we may or may not have been aware that they had been have introduced the consumer redress order powers in mischarged. this Bill is to provide consumers with the means of However, it is clear that the Government are not redress without the need to initiate individual complaints. prepared to pursue this issue in that context, which is disappointing. I also think that the briefing that the 9pm Minister has is not entirely in parallel with what is Consumer redress order powers offer an alternative being discussed in BIS and in the consultation on to lengthy and expensive litigation in that investigations consumer protection in other arenas. This is an area are initiated by Ofgem to benefit all affected consumers, where common problems arise much more frequently with no legal fees to pay. These powers benefit consumers than in the normal buying and selling and contractual without the need for consideration of the relative arrangements throughout the economy. That is because merits of an opt-in or opt-out, as orders can be made everyone has similar Bills and similar charges whereas on behalf of all affected consumers, whether they in other places there are differentiations to be made. come forward or not, including many who may not Therefore, this is a prime potential sector for collective have been aware that they have suffered a loss. The redress. However, for tonight, I accept the Minister’s powers are proportionate, and build on the redress rebuff and I will say no more. I beg leave to withdraw available to consumers through the ombudsman and the amendment. the power to impose penalties on energy companies when things go wrong. Amendment 104B withdrawn. Collective redress, on the other hand, cuts across the role of the ombudsman as the most cost-effective and simplest form of agreeing redress when things go Clause 136: Fuel poverty wrong. Collective redress opens the prospect of court action becoming the first route to redress. I ask: what Amendment 104C is wrong with that as an approach? It is true that some Tabled by Lord Whitty would be happy if this were the case, as collective redress inevitably requires third parties or intermediaries 104C: Clause 136, page 104, line 14, leave out “a target date to take action on the consumers’ behalf. In the event for achieving the objective” and insert “targets for 2020 and 2030 for achieving energy efficiency improvement of dwellings of low that a case is successful, these parties will seek to income households and for the reduction of total numbers of the recover their costs from either the pay-outs due to fuel poor, leading to the eradication of fuel poverty. individuals or from the energy companies. The problem “(2A) The Secretary of State shall set further targets beyond with this approach is therefore that it introduces an 2030 in line with the 2008 Climate Change Act to reduce greenhouse entirely new cost that these companies will pass on to gas emissions by 80 per cent by 2050.” 301 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 302

Lord Whitty: My Lords, had this Bill and the procedure year—and in particular to set target years—at how the taken a slightly different course, I would have pursued energy efficiency of our dwellings is improving, as other this amendment. It was debated earlier. Normally, the noble Lords have acknowledged. Even now, after nearly vote would come up at this point. 20 years of activity in trying to improve the quality of our buildings, we fall far short of the northern European The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness standard in terms of insulation and warmth retention. McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab): My Lords, perhaps I may We are therefore far more afflicted by the resultant interrupt the noble Lord. If he is proposing to speak fuel poverty than other equivalent countries. to this amendment, he should move it first. One problem is consistency of reporting. We need Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am referring to to report on the achievement of the objectives: on Amendment 104C, which was debated earlier. I am energy efficiency, and on reductions of the number of not going to move it. I am just registering with the the fuel poor; but we also need to report on the effects Minister that, had it fallen differently, this amendment of fuel poverty, and how we are managing to reduce would have been the most important one in the first those. Some of those are set out in the amendment. group and I would have called a vote. I therefore hope There are references to mortality rates due to fuel that the Minister and her colleagues will have another poverty; to the cost of fuel poverty-related diseases to look at it. the NHS; to debt; and to emissions of carbon dioxide, because this is an energy efficiency and carbon reduction Amendment 104C not moved. policy as well as a fuel poverty and social policy. These should all be monitored and reported on, and checked Amendments 104D to 104G not moved. against the milestone targets which I hope the Minister will eventually come up with in the strategy. Amendment 104H The other point is consistency with past data. There Moved by Lord Whitty is a problem here because there is some cynicism that a 104H: Clause 136, page 105, line 3, at end insert— change of definition of fuel poverty has statistically “( ) For the purposes of allowing a comparative assessment of got rid of nearly 2 million homes without anybody progress in addressing fuel poverty, assessments under this section actually being any better off. Some people should have must include, until at least 2018, the extent of fuel poverty as been excluded from the total, but most people would measured according to the definition set pursuant to the Warm regard that the majority of those are still fuel poor, Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000. and the run of statistics we have had from the year ( ) Reports under subsection (5) shall also include an 2000 or even earlier onwards would be discontinued if assessment by the Secretary of State of the impact and projected impact of implementation of the strategy on— the change of definition also led to an end of those historic statistics. We also have the complication that (a) the mortality rates and health needs of persons living in fuel poverty; in Scotland, Northern Ireland and, I think, Wales, the old definition is to be retained. Therefore, when we (b) the cost of cold-related illness to the National Health Service and wider economy; look at UK numbers for the fuel poor, there will be an inconsistency between the adoption of Professor (c) the level of debt as a result of energy bills, and the number of unpaid bills; Hills’s definition and the government monitoring and tracking that, and what is happening in the devolved (d) any change in the number of jobs created and supported as a result of implementing the strategy; and Administrations, which would mean that we could not have an overall UK figure. (e) emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases from fuel poor households.” That may change over time, but all I am suggesting is that for a few years we mandate that the old series Lord Whitty: My Lords, these amendments relate should continue so that the old definition—as I say, we to the strategy which will be required under Clause 136. already have a 15-year run with it—should be extended As I indicated earlier, the clause itself should be beefed at least to 2018 and be reviewed at that point. For the up. At the moment the Government clearly think it first few years of the strategy, the two criteria could be can all be done by secondary legislation. But whatever judged. There would be the new definition, which will the substantive content of the strategy, and whatever have a starting point in, say, 2014 or 2015 and is the definition of fuel poverty is adopted, careful and Government’s preferred definition—for the moment I regular reporting and monitoring of progress on improving accept that—and a comparison with the old, historic the energy efficiency of the houses in which low-income trend. We would then be able to see whether the households live, and on reducing the total numbers of change in definition led to a change in outcome statistically the fuel poor in our economy, are important to hold and whether that change actually meant something the Government and the supply companies to account. real on the ground. In some ways, the two might This reporting would also ensure that the policies the diverge significantly, because while the criticism of the Government intend are pursued, whether they are old definition was that it was too price sensitive, the the current ones via the ECO or, to some extent, the criticism against the new definition is that it is not Green Deal, or whether they are new policies that the quite sensitive enough. In the end, the judgment of Government come up with at a later stage. poverty is that someone cannot afford something because Noble Lords earlier argued for it to be a taxpayer- the price is too high. I fear that the Government will resourced intervention in improving energy efficiency. find that even if they have a relatively successful policy As my noble friend Lord O’Neill said earlier, we need on energy efficiency, if prices continue to go up, that to measure the success of that policy in terms of the will not show in the figures. It is my subjective judgment energy efficiency of buildings, and to look year by that that will be a problem. 303 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 304

[LORD WHITTY] statistics and these issues are included. In reference to All I am saying tonight is that the Government the noble Lord’s query about the old and the new should accept, for a limited period, that we should run definitions, I confirm that we will continue to include the two series together to see if they diverge and whether fuel poverty numbers under the 10% definition. This is there are any policy or future monitoring conclusions something to which we are already committed, and it to be drawn from that. I hope that the Government will continue to appear in the annual fuel poverty can accept that, and that there should be systematic statistics. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is reporting of the level of fuel poverty, the success of reassured that the fuel poverty strategy will be a energy efficiency activity, and of its outcomes and comprehensive one and that it is not necessary or impacts in the terms of these provisions. I beg to appropriate to set out the issues that it will cover move. within the primary legislation. I trust that he will feel reassured enough to withdraw his amendment. Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has made a sophisticated case for Lord Whitty: I am very grateful to the Minister. If his amendment. When I read it, my first reaction was she is saying that the method of reporting and the to say, “We have all agreed that the Hills proposed issues which we cover in those reports will continue, I definition is likely to be more effective in dealing with certainly welcome that. On the issue of the measurement, real fuel poverty than the existing one that was suggested I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and to under the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation the House that I do not think Professor Hills’s definition Act”. Indeed, as I said earlier today, having reread the is necessarily a better one. I agree that there are defects debate on this subject that we had in Committee, I had in the old one but I think there are also defects in the the impression that there was very little disagreement new one. Professor Hills’s proposal of measuring the that the new would be a good deal more effective than depth of fuel poverty as well as the absolute numbers the old. of fuel poverty is a very useful tool and I strongly The noble Lord has now given two reasons for support it, but time will tell as to whether or not his running on. One is to be able to have a continuous definition is better than the old one. process whereby the old one goes on while the new one I am gratified that the Minister is saying that the is being introduced so that there is no gap, and with series will be continued, at least for some time. By that I have some sympathy. But if he is saying that the implication she may have meant for longer than is second reason for running the two in parallel is so that provided for in this amendment. That will give continuity you can compare one with the other, I would find that and time for the new series to build up because the new more difficult. I am not sure how the officials would definition will start from next year. We will not have manage to do that. If the old definition has been much of a series for very long. That will greatly help established by Professor Hills’s report as really not those who have campaigned long on the basis of the being an effective measurement of fuel poverty and 10% definition to understand how the policies are therefore providing the basis for annual reports, it impacting that, and to see whether or not the new would seem that the less one relies on it the better, and definition is robust. I am reasonably assured by the the quicker one can go on to the new one the better. Minister, rather more than I expected to be, and so I However, it may be that I have misunderstood the beg leave to withdraw the amendment. noble Lord. I do not think it can be used to compare; the only possible reason should be for continuity, Amendment 104H withdrawn. which I am sure could be achieved in other ways. Amendments 104J and 104K not moved. 9.15 pm Baroness Verma: My Lords, I would like to thank Amendment 105 the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his amendment. It sets out the issues that must be contained within the Moved by Lord Campbell-Savours strategy that will set out how we are going to meet 105: After Clause 137, insert the following new Clause— the target. As I mentioned earlier, we will publish the “Rising block tariff energy supply scheme strategy for consultation next year and intend to use (1) The Secretary of State shall have regard to the desirability this opportunity to set out our plans for how we will of establishing specifications for the introduction of a rising tackle fuel poverty. I agree with noble Lords that there block tariff scheme governing electricity and gas prices and shall are clear links between fuel poverty and health, and a consult representatives of the gas and electricity supply industries clear health benefit to the NHS by acting in this area. prior to the establishment of such regulations. That is why we already include excess winter death (2) A rising block tariff system of energy pricing is one in which there is a basic threshold price for electricity and gas and rates as part of the annual statistics we publish on fuel an additional percentage price premium applicable to each block poverty. We are working to better understand the costs of units above that threshold. and benefits to the NHS and we will be building on (3) A national standard for rising block tariffs shall cover the this within the strategy. following matters— The proposed amendment also suggests that the (a) the number of units of gas or electricity to be provided strategy covers a number of other issues such as debt, by the supplier of the basic threshold price annually; the depth of fuel poverty and the number of children (b) the number of units comprised in each subsequent block who are living in fuel-poor households. These are all of units; very important concerns. It is for this reason that we (c) the additional price premium payable per unit applicable already report widely within the annual fuel poverty to each block; 305 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 306

(d) the calculation for the purposes of setting the minimum would need to be at a rate to ensure that their block B number of units to be applied at the basic threshold and C prices were viable, competitive and affordable price quarterly; for consumers. (e) the arrangements for the setting of standing charges. (4) Nothing in this Act permits the Secretary of State to What would be the advantages? The system would determine the basic threshold price of electricity where a rising induce investment in conservation, and there would be block tariff is in force. more careful management of energy use by householders, (5) The Secretary of State shall report to Parliament on the as consumers sought to avoid moving into higher operation of the scheme within 12 months of the coming into blocks, particularly into block C. There would be an force of this section.” element of redistribution. It would reduce the growing shift towards means-testing. It would reduce CO2 Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I apologise for emissions. Suppliers would retain control of the price my non-attendance in Committee. This was due to a by, crucially, being responsible for setting the block A clash with sittings of a number of domestic committees discount price. which I needed to attend. I recognise that it would be difficult to set the This is a subject I have raised on a number of volume of units to be applied to each block—in particular, occasions over the years both at Question Time and in block A. It would be necessary to calculate and agree a the form of amendments to previous legislation. Since reasonable number of units to be allocated to block A last raising it in 2008 I have had the opportunity to for a core usage of electricity—I call that the CUE. further refine and simplify the scheme. RBT— rising The CUE would be set taking into account multiple block tariff—arises from what appears to the public to occupancy, disability and basic energy requirements be an anomaly in energy pricing which defies all logic. per household. As I said, the RBT would be available The rising block tariff applies to domestic suppliers of to all, but set at a level that provided for basic energy gas and electricity. needs. It could be calculated on the basis of an agreed If we examine our gas or electricity bills, we will square footage space energy requirement. In particular, note that initial units of electricity and gas are charged pensioner households’ space requirements would need at a higher rate than subsequent units. Low-use consumers to be fully considered, but it is likely that many pensioners are penalised by the pricing structure, not only because would move into block B areas of consumption; certainly of the early units penalty but by the levying of standing in heating fuel requirements. The RPT does not do charges. The present system is regressive in its financial away with state support for low-income pensioner impact by penalising poorer sections of society. The households but, as I said, it would reduce dependency system also lacks any incentive to conserve energy. If on the state for heating support and transfer responsibility we are serious about energy conservation, we should for that support to “heavy users” in the process of use the pricing structure for units of energy to influence redistribution. investment in conservation. Some households are single fuel, and would lose The problem is that, although a relatively free market out compared with dual-fuel households. The answer in domestic energy prices can influence conservation is to provide every domestic hereditament with two investment as prices increase, the effect is limited due energy entitlements: one for gas and the other for to a lack of real incentives. We need a penalty built electricity. Single-fuel households would be entitled to into cost to the domestic consumer, whereby the higher two electricity entitlements. The need to provide two the consumption of units, the higher the price—in other entitlements for single-fuel households stems from words, a reversal of the present arrangement. Furthermore, problems with heating requirements. It may seem introducing such incentives would provide an opportunity complicated as I put it to the House, but when you to affect the position of people on low incomes without analyse it, the system I am advocating is quite simple. necessarily drawing them into means-testing. Why cannot domestic energy prices be set at a It might be possible to have a separate RBT for discount for the first block of units, with subsequent certain separately defined disability groups with prescribed blocks priced at increasing rates? It would be perfectly greater heating requirements. They could be assessed possible for the first block, what we might call block on a different basis. In their case, it might be possible A, to be set at a discount from block B, the standard to have either fewer blocks with greater spread in terms tariff, which itself could be priced at less than block C, of volume of units, or a greater number of blocks with the premium tariff: discount tariff over standard tariff a narrower spread. Regarding seasonal temperature over premium tariff. The block A tariff would be differentials, householders invariably consume more universally available to all consumers and set at a level energy in the winter months, when there are greater that maximised the benefit to low-income households heating requirements. It would be necessary to ensure in blocks A and B. A fixed allocation of units would the transfer on of units between quarters at the end of be available to all domestic customers. The Government each quarter, as is currently done with free minute would set the number of units in each of those blocks allocations for some mobile phones. and the percentage difference in cost per unit in between Differentials in regional temperature are not fully blocks A, B and C. considered under present domestic energy pricing However, it is critical that the block A price, the arrangements. It has been argued that a national pooling discounted tariff, is set in the free market by the energy arrangement should be in place to compensate consumers suppliers. The Government would play no part in in colder regions for their higher energy costs. Privatisation setting the block A discounted tariff unit price, but of the industry and competition in the market place would leave suppliers free to set their prices, which have made this difficult to introduce. Under RBT, any 307 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 308

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] my regret. One of the reasons was the fact that my such pooling arrangements, if required, would need to noble friend Lord Ridley mentioned: namely, that poor be based on block A volumes of units allocated, rather people are the ones who use a lot of electricity for their than on price. heating. It is an irony that people in fuel poverty have A problem could arise over the timing of the to use electricity for heating, so block tariffs are very introduction of RBT. It could be constrained by limited difficult to use in order to get the outcomes that we public understanding of the value of investing in want. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s arguments conservation measures. The answer is to introduce a about this amendment, because I suspect that they will rising block tariff system over an extended period, be exactly the ones that persuaded me that this scheme perhaps as long as 10 years. Such a period would enable was not practically possible. power suppliers, consumers and the energy conservation industry to adjust. In particular it would enable suppliers Baroness Worthington (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful of energy to refocus their efforts on further developing to my noble friend for tabling this amendment and for and refining their conservation packages, which will his pursuit of this issue in other fora. It is correct that be of greatest interest to domestic energy users. the way that electricity is priced at the moment is In October 2008 in an article in the Guardian,Ed illogical: the more we consume as a whole, the higher Miliband referred to the principle behind the amendment the cost of producing the electricity. Once our demand when he said he was, rises, we have to bring on marginal plant, which is less efficient and more costly, pushing up the wholesale “looking at the structure of tariffs so that people might no longer have to pay the highest price for the first tranche of gas and price for everyone. The people who consume the most electricity they used”. therefore cause us to carry a cost that we should not Unfortunately my party has not been exactly sympathetic have to bear. to following up the original idea, primarily put off by It should therefore be logical that we disincentivise large family energy requirements, which I have now set the bringing on of marginal plant by tariff pricing and out to address through the core usage of electricity, tariff structures. However, although the idea has been the CUE. The larger the CUE, the steeper the subsequent raised on many occasions, the moment has never been block increases. found to make it a reality. I hope—and I think that There is much support for the idea in Europe as this will be the case—that once smart metering comes countries increasingly find themselves struggling with into play, this will become an absolute no-brainer. At higher energy prices. Arguments over climate change that point, when we have detailed information about and the more efficient use of resources will inevitably each individual household’s demand across a given take us down this route. The noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, period of time, this will become enabled. At present, came to my rescue during the closing moments of the though, it is a very difficult thing to bring into practice. debate in 2008, when he advised the House that, Noble Lords have touched on some of the issues. “in eastern Australia this rising block tariff is used on domestic One of them is the question of the variance in demand water”,—[Official Report, 28/10/08; col. 1510.] between households. It can be perfectly true that you to help conserve water supplies. I also understand that have two identical semi-detached houses with very Ofgem was supposed to have had a look at my and different energy bills, because of different socioeconomic other proposals for RBT during a recent review of circumstances. Someone who is at home all day will energy prices. Perhaps the Minister might give an have the heating on and that will increase their bills. If update on what happened to the Ofgem inquiry. you have a high occupancy rate—if you have children, for example—your energy bills will go up. It is quite This system, or one based on the same principles, is difficult to identify the right point at which to say, utterly inevitable. The public understand what this “This is a fair use of electricity and after this we are discussion is about. Just as everybody understands the going to increase the price”. arguments put by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in his That said, though, it is not impossible. It should not amendment, this equally is an argument that the public be the case that electricity companies incentivise greater understand. The public are interested as to why the usage and reduce the rate of tariffs after a certain energy companies insist on charging the highest prices point of consumption. If we are not yet able to get to a for the lowest volume consumers. Perhaps the Minister fully comprehensive rising block tariff system, then at will explain whether she thinks there is a way out of least the Government could perhaps make it clear that this conundrum. I beg to move. tariffs should not have such a regressive effect that the highest price would be for the first units of consumption 9.30 pm and then there would be a reduction in the unit Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, this is a very noble price—that should be ruled out. The Prime Minister cause. I myself tried to introduce a similar amendment has indicated that he has a desire to make tariffs to the first of this Government’s energy Bills. I first simpler. The simplest thing would be to have one unit came across the real problem with it when I tried to price for everyone and for everything. Let us start draft an amendment that would make block tariffs there, and if we can establish that principle and stop work. They are incredibly difficult, and I congratulate the incentivisation of greater consumption, that will the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, on having be a step in the right direction. got as far as he has. I must admit, though, that at the I still think that there is something in this idea. We end of the day this was one of the few instances where need to look at it, although it is possibly true that now I was actually persuaded by DECC officials that the is not the time. I am sure that that will disappoint my idea was not possible and would not work—much to noble friend; one can always say, “Now is not the time”. 309 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 310

However, with the advent of better technology such as best placed to assess the regulatory changes needed. smart meters and a greater understanding of demand Although I suspect that he will not, I hope that the with better data, we will be able to get there. The way noble Lord will find my explanation reassuring, and that the system is currently structured is illogical, and that he will withdraw his amendment. I am sure that something like this will be introduced within the next decade. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, the Minister on being so prescient and ahead of the curve. said that she thought that it would be easier for consumers to compare tariffs. The reality is that, if she Baroness Verma: I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord had supported the amendment moved by the noble Campbell-Savours, for his amendment. The noble Lord Lord, Lord Forsyth, that would have been the case. In has a long-standing interest in this matter and I understand reality, there will be very little difference in the way his desire to encourage more energy efficiency and to that billing is presented, and certainly in the ability of reduce the energy bills of low-income households. We the public to comprehend billing. considered in the past the case for rising block tariffs. I latched on to the statement made by my noble When the issue was debated during the passage of the friend on the Front Bench when she referred to smart Energy Bill 2011 we were concerned, as we are now, meters. Although I was engaged, as was the noble that they would have an adverse impact on fuel-poor Lord, Lord Teverson, in the smart meter debate in households with high energy consumption. I followed 2008—we had those critical meetings at the end before very carefully the noble Lord’s argument that this we managed to win, as he will remember—I did not would not happen, but I believe that many consumers realise the significance of this until my noble friend would see their bills rise under a rising block tariff. referred to it just now. It is possible that smart meters The Committee on Climate Change has also examined will give us some of the information that I need to the case for rising block tariffs and concluded that they, further reinforce my argument when, no doubt, in a “should not be introduced until fuel poverty has been addressed few years’ time, I once again table the same amendment through targeted energy efficiency improvement and other fuel in the hope that one day someone will pick it up and poverty policy measures”. we will transform the energy consumption arrangements We are addressing fuel poverty through the Warm Home for the average household in the United Kingdom. I Discount. This year more than 1.1 million households beg leave to withdraw the amendment. will receive an automatic rebate on their electricity bill of £135 and more than 2 million households will Amendment 105 withdrawn. receive assistance from the scheme as a whole. As the noble Lord rightly points out, we are also tackling the poor energy efficiency of our homes through the Energy Amendment 106 Companies Obligation and the Green Deal. Some Moved by Lord Teverson 230,000 vulnerable and low-income households will be warmer this year because of the measures installed in 106: After Clause 141, insert the following new Clause— their homes under ECO. “Amendment of Electricity Act 1989: generating station and Clauses 130 to 133 are intended to enable the overhead line development by non licence-holders Secretary of State to simplify the tariff market, to In Schedule 9 to Electricity Act 1989 (preservation of increase competition in the retail domestic energy amenity and fisheries), after paragraph 4 insert— market through greater consumer engagement and to “4A (1) Sub-paragraph (2) applies where a person who is neither a licence holder nor authorised by exemption to generate, get consumers on to the best tariff for them. We have distribute, supply or participate in the transmission of electricity introduced these clauses to give statutory backing to applies for the consent of the Secretary of State under section 36 Ofgem’s reforms of the retail energy market. These or 37 of this Act. reforms have been developed to ensure that customers (2) Paragraphs 1 and 3 above apply to the making and are on the cheapest tariff that is in line with their consideration of the application as they apply to the making and preferences with their current supplier. They will introduce consideration of relevant proposals made by a person who is a a simpler, clearer tariff framework so that consumers licence holder or so authorised by exemption.”” can compare tariffs across the market more easily. The noble Baroness mentioned smart meters. I Lord Teverson: My Lords, this amendment and the agree with her. When people have smart meters installed, next concern the Electricity Act 1989. I have not yet that will help them recognise the amount of energy that read it all but I have not once come across the word they are paying for at the time of use, and will inform them “decarbonisation” in it. It shows how we have moved of when to use energy at different times of the year to forwards—or backwards, depending on how one looks get the best value out of it during the day. However, we at it—over the years. are just rolling out smart meters now. They are not yet Amendment 106 relates to a decision made only a part of a mass rollout. So a key measure is to give few weeks ago concerning Viking Energy, which was consumers the ability to compare tariffs, banning complex looking to obtain a consent under Section 36 of the multi-tier tariffs and requiring suppliers to structure 1989 Act for a wind farm in Shetland. There was a all tariffs as a standing charge and single unit rate. judicial review of that decision, which was upheld by Introducing a framework for rising block tariffs the Outer House of the Court of Session. That has done would cut across Ofgem’s reforms to deliver a fairer, something that this Energy Bill is trying to prevent more transparent and competitive market. We are —that is, it has increased uncertainty for investors—and backing its proposals, not instructing it how to regulate changed completely the view within Scotland of what the market. Ofgem is an independent regulator and is is needed to obtain a Section 36 consent for a major 311 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 312

[LORD TEVERSON] which permissions are given and projects are undertaken power project over 50 megawatts. The judgment laid are seen to be fair and take account of all objections down that the people who were applying needed a and environmental and other interests. This example generating licence before they could obtain that consent. is about a particular wind farm development in some That is not always the case and I suggest that it should respects, but it is also about the rule of law and our not necessarily be the case. attitudes to the rule of law. These schemes tend to be joint ventures involving The fact of the matter is that this whole saga arose generating companies that already have licences—in because of the Viking project in Shetland, with over this case, Scottish and Southern Energy was one of the 100 turbines, where there was considerable local major shareholders of Viking—which try to obtain opposition. The project is being promoted by the their Section 36 permission for the generating station Shetland Islands trust, which has got the oil money—and to go ahead; it could be wind power or any form of a large number of the trustees are councillors in power. But clearly there has to be a licence to operate Shetland—together with Scottish and Southern Energy. before the project can go ahead and generate electricity, They are the people who are promoting this project. so there is no question about the organisation that gets There was very considerable local opposition to this the consent being competent and being able to move project, but the council decided that it was not conflicted, forward. Indeed, given the amount of investment that even though the Shetland trust was a party to the is required for these projects over 50 megawatts—in development. As a result, there was no public inquiry. this case, one-third of a gigawatt—clearly there would The Scottish Ministers in the Scottish Government be no financial backing if the organisations were not gave the project the go-ahead. Some local opposition seen as competent. sought judicial review of that decision, which went to The decision north of the border has introduced a the Court of Session, which is the equivalent of the great deal of uncertainty into the system and made the High Court in England. progress towards investment in power generation far Former law officer, Lynda Clark, after three months more difficult. It has also put into question those of deliberation and a well argued and clearly very Section 36 consents that perhaps have already been considered opinion, which I have read and is freely granted at a time when the operator did not have a available, concluded that this proposal was unlawful licence. I would be very interested to hear how my because it did not meet, as my noble friend has said, noble friend the Minister sees the status of those past the requirements of Schedule 9 of the Electricity consents now that this court ruling has taken place. Act 1989, which makes it clear that anyone who is I understand that the Scottish Government have planning on producing a power plant which includes a appealed against that decision to the Inner House of wind farm should have a licence from Ofgem before the Court of Session, and that the appeal will take planning approval can be granted. When the judge place in February and March. Once again, that causes asked the parties to the development who had the a hiatus in investment. It means that there is great necessary consent, none of them had, and the project uncertainty over future investment in power in what is had to go back to square one. a particularly important part of the UK for renewables. When I was a Secretary of State—and for as long as Therefore, I have tabled this amendment in order to I have known—the principle has been that when a bring clarity and ensure that the way in which this judge reaches a conclusion as to the state of the law, system was always thought to operate is reinstated. I that is the law until such time as it is subject to an should add that within England and Wales this is not appeal. What happened next is an absolute scandal. an issue, as I understand it, because there has been The Scottish Government then decided that they disagreed consequent legislation, either primary or secondary with the judge in her opinion and that they would go since the Electricity Act 1989. South of the border, the ahead anyway. In a letter signed by Catherine Cacace position is quite clear. I beg to move. to John Campbell QC, the Energy Consents and Deployment Unit said: 9.45 pm “Scottish Ministers note that the Court has found that an Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, I am application for consent under section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989 very disappointed that my noble friend Lord Stephen can only be made (and so granted) where the applicant at the time is not here tonight. This issue first came to my attention of making the application either holds a licence to generate because of some very unfortunate publicity in the electricity or is exempt from that requirement”. Daily Telegraph, where he was accused of promoting It goes on—wait for it: his business interests through this amendment. Quite “Scottish Ministers’ position is that they disagree with, and rightly, he withdrew his name and made it clear that have appealed, the decision … The decision on the legislative his name had been added to the amendment in error. interpretation runs contrary to the established practice relating to the handling of applications for consent which has been in place both north and south of the border for many years … Our intention Lord Teverson: My Lords, perhaps my noble friend is therefore to continue to operate in accordance with the practice will allow me to intervene. I absolutely endorse that … and to deal with current applications on that basis”. and make it clear that the name of my noble friend In other words, “We will ignore the law”. It goes on to Lord Stephen was added to this amendment completely say: by error and without his permission at the time. “Scottish Ministers consider that the balance of public and national interest is in favour of continuing with the current Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Whatever one’s views on approach until the appeal has been determined, in particular wind farms—I confess I am not an enthusiast for because of the need to continue to support the economy and our them—it is absolutely essential that the process by renewable energy ambitions”. 313 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 314

So their renewable energy ambitions trounce the law station. Of course, a wind farm is a generation system of the land. That is very undesirable and unprecedented which amounts to a power station. In order to operate —as far as I know; I see a noble Lord sitting on the that you must have a licence, or have an exemption Front Bench who is familiar with both the law and from a licence, usually because the power station you Shetland. I can think of no other case. The normal want to operate is very small. It does not seem very practice would be to stay any development until such strange to require that as a condition for applying for time as an appeal had been considered. What I very a station. It would seem a little odd that the relevant strongly object to about the amendment is that it authorities could grant consent for a station if you would take away the legal position that has been were not authorised to operate it. It could happen, I established for many years, and which has been confirmed suppose, but it seems a little unlikely. Therefore it is by the court, in a retrospective manner. It would create not at all surprising that it is assumed in the definition a situation in which any Tom, Dick or Harry could of the conditions for consent that that would be so. apply for permission to establish a wind farm—or, I guess, any other form of generation. Those tests about Schedule 9 of the Electricity Act 1989 is a set of their ability to meet environmental and other requirements requirements for the protection of the environment, under the legislation would then be applied to them. basically, which a person—it is described in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson—who This is an undesirable development, by both the is either a licence holder or exempt for a licence must Scottish Government and my noble friends. The proper take account of in his proposals. It is pretty obvious procedure here would be to at least wait for the appeal. that the proposals are for the construction of a generating It is certainly quite wrong for the Scottish Government station and that you would therefore be a person who to continue in this way. If you look at it from the point would have a licence to operate the generating station of view of the objectors, they have gone to a judicial if, in fact, it is agreed and consented to by the relevant review, won their case—and everyone knows how difficult authority. it is to win a case on judicial review—and the Scottish Government are just saying that they are going to The judgment of the noble and learned Baroness, ignore that. Should this House to seek to overturn the Lady Clark, which is well reasoned and a little longer effect of that judgment, when people are talking in than my speech so far, is just to that effect. Schedule 9 terms of the need to support “our renewable energy starts with the condition that you are either a licence ambitions”? Our renewable energy ambitions must holder or exempt and then you have to ensure that carry public consent. This is no way in which to your proposals, in effect, do not damage the amenity, proceed. I have strong objections to the amendment, or the environment. That is the crux of this and I find and I hope that my noble friend will reject it. her reasoning rather convincing. In fact, it is what I always understood. As I say, it is a long time since I understood it, but it was my understanding at the time. Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB): My Lords, earlier The last application I made, as it happens, was for this evening, I found myself in agreement with the Torness power station, which was the last nuclear power noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, about transparency. I feel station to be built in Scotland and is now coming near even more strongly about this issue. It seems that we its decommissioning. I was under the instruction of are challenging the rule of law. I know that a lot of the noble Lord, Lord Tombs, who was at that time the people in this country feel that their ability to object to chairman of the South of Scotland Electricity Board something is often overruled by big business and large whose station it was. Anyway, so far as I have an interest amounts of money, and that they do not really have a in this matter it is a very aged interest and it has voice. The Government promoted a Localism Act nothing to do with finance or anything of that sort. which is often in conflict with what they wish to see for energy generation. In my submission, it seems that what the noble and The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, mentioned an learned Baroness, Lady Clark, who was a law officer argument which planners are always throwing back at in the previous Government, has decided is right. objectors: “Well, they wouldn’t do it if it didn’t make However, it is, of course, subject to appeal and as the sense and they didn’t know what they were doing”. I noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, the appeal is to be a repeat: Mammon has a role to play here. The objectors reclaiming motion, strictly speaking, in the Scottish must be allowed to put their point of view. If you are terminology, and to be heard by the Inner House of now going to insult them by saying, “We are even the Court of Session in February. The rule in relation going to take judicial review and the law away from to sub judice does not apply when we are discussing you”, where does that leave them? legislation, so we are free to discuss this matter, but I think that the judgment of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Clark, is extremely cogent and I will Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, it is look forward to hearing what happens on appeal. In some little time since I did applications for power the mean time, that is the highest assertion of what the stations in Scotland; the last one was about 35 years law of Scotland is, and, indeed, for that matter, anywhere ago. However, I have some understanding of the way else where the same rules apply. In the law of Scotland in which these matters were approached. the Supreme Court of Scotland, the Court of Session, As your Lordships know, in order to generate, has decided that to be the fact. Therefore it is highly transmit or supply electricity you must have a licence undesirable for this House to alter that position at this and there is a pretty good reason for that. Section 36, moment. It seems pretty sensible that before you get which my noble friend mentioned, provides for an consent to erect a power station you should be qualified application for consent to construct or operate a power to operate it. As I said, that is the crux of the decision. 315 Energy Bill[LORDS] Energy Bill 316

[LORD MACKAY OF CLASHFERN] At no time, then or before, when I was the Scottish I therefore hope that the Government will not accept Whip for five years, do I ever recall any contemplation this amendment, which is not very well placed from of defying the will of the courts. That is the fundamental the point of view of logicality. issue that we are addressing underneath these two amendments. The issue of the licence is fundamental, 10 pm and this amendment seems to set aside one of the few Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Before my noble and controls that are in place to try to impose some kind of learned friend sits down, will he comment on the discipline and proper judgment on the relevant importance conduct of the Scottish Government, who say that of windmills in Scotland. We read every day of how they will continue as if this judgment had not been the country is being covered with them like a rash, made because they do not agree with it? ruining the environment and all attraction to tourism, with no regard to the future or to the value of these Lord Mackay of Clashfern: I have made known my excrescences. Therefore, setting aside my strong views view about what the judgment says and my noble on windmills, this rule of law issue has to be addressed friend Lord Forsyth has made his view known about very seriously indeed. how the Scottish Government approach these matters. I do not particularly wish to comment on what they Lord Whitty: My Lords, I think I will leave this one have done so far as I do not know fully enough the to the Government. facts about these other applications. However, certainly Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank my noble friends in so far as the application from Shetland is concerned, Lord Teverson and Lord Roper for tabling this there is no doubt that the decision of the Court of amendment and my other noble friends for their Session until reversed will set that consent aside. There contributions, especially my noble and learned friend is no question at all of going ahead to erect the station Lord Mackay of Clashfern, as he laid out very clearly in Shetland at present. That would be completely the position of the law without referring to windmills without sanction, because the judge has set aside the or any other type of energy source. The judgment consent as being unlawful. The rule of law will certainly referring to planning consent under Section 36 of the be applied in Shetland, so far as that is concerned; the Electricity Act 1989 can be made only when the applicant, noble Lord has said whether the Shetland law applies at the time of making the application, holds a licence more generally, and I will leave it with what he said. to generate electricity under the Act or holds an exemption from this requirement, as my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton (Con): My Lords, I had not Lord Teverson pointed out. This judgment is being intended to speak in this debate; I know that the hour appealed and we are monitoring the position carefully. is late, so I will be brief. However, when I saw that my Given that the appeal is under way it would be premature, noble friend Lord Forsyth had tabled an amendment and indeed inappropriate, at this stage to adopt a that seemed to be almost in diametric opposition to legislative amendment without knowing what the the preceding amendment—we have not yet reached outcomes were. Any legislative change would need to be my noble friend’s amendment—it seemed that there considered in the full light of the outcomes of this case was probably something of interest to be debated. and it would be a mistake to assume that the judgment Having heard what has been said, I am glad that I was of the Outer House, if upheld, would be decided upon here to hear it, and I am appalled at what I have heard. in exactly the same terms in the Inner House. However, I am greatly reassured by the views of my If we legislate now, we may find that the amendment noble and learned friend Lord Mackay. does not deal with the final interpretation of the My own views on windmills, which I first made legislation, taking into account the arguments that are clear in this House some 12 years ago, is of strong being developed as part of the judicial review hearings. opposition to them. They are an appalling waste of In the event that this decision is upheld in terms time and money; they ruin the environment and damage equivalent to the original opinion of the noble and wildlife; they do not deliver power when the wind is learned Baroness, Lady Clark of Calton, we will of too strong or when there is no wind at all; and when course work with the Scottish Government to review they do deliver power, there is so little of it that it is the situation. For those reasons, I ask my noble friend completely worthless and has to be backed up by other Lord Teverson to withdraw his amendment. forms of energy. I will not repeat all those views again to the House tonight. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Does my noble friend What is at issue is not a matter of energy generation agree with the position of Scottish Ministers that they but of the rule of law. I am aghast to hear that the should continue with their current approach until the Scottish Government are now cheerfully setting aside appeal has been determined, or does she take the view a judgment in the High Court in anticipation of an that there should be a stay on these matters until the appeal, which may or may not go in their favour. My law is clarified? noble friend referred to his time in the Scottish Office, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay referred Baroness Verma: My Lords, I will repeat what I to his experience many years back. I was present at the have said, which is: let us wait to see what the outcome opening of the Torness power station, although I had of the appeal is. no hand in its design or in the legalities behind it. However, I served in the Scottish Office for nine years, Lord Teverson: My Lords, this was tabled as rather ahead of my noble friend, so between us we did about a probing amendment, given the situation that has 12 years. arisen, and I am grateful to noble Lords for their 317 Energy Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Energy Bill 318 contributions. I do not wish to detain the House on to pull the carpet from under that important principle this for too long but I will say that this has nothing to in how we live our public life. I beg leave to withdraw do with retrospection; I absolutely disagree that someone the amendment. who develops a wind farm or any other energy-generating station over 50 megawatts is necessarily going to be Amendment 106 withdrawn. the operator. It is a fact in industry in Britain and Amendment 106A not moved. worldwide that the developer is often not the operator, in whatever industry we may talk about—they are two entirely separate processes. If you took the view that Clause 145: Extent they had to be the same legal person then you would probably have to go back to 17th-century economics, Amendments 107 and 108 let alone 21st-century ones. It does not work that way any more. It would also bring the practicalities back Moved by Baroness Verma into line with the English and Welsh situation. In no 107: Clause 145, page 113, line 1, leave out sub-paragraph (iv) way does this amendment make any judgment about and insert— whether people should be able to judicially review “( ) section 49 (transition to certificate purchase scheme);” such decisions; clearly they should be able to do so. I 108: Clause 145, page 113, line 6, at end insert— would hope that such actions would not be vexatious, “( ) Section (Closure of support under the renewables obligation)(4) and I am sure that this one was not. Indeed, there was extends to Northern Ireland only.” a judgment parallel to the licensing one concerning the wildlife directives, on which I make no judgment at Amendments 107 and 108 agreed. all. It might have been completely valid in terms of their application. Clause 146: Commencement

With this amendment I was simply trying to bring the situation back to some certainty and to the situation Amendments 109 and 110 that was understood prior to this judgment. That is Moved by Baroness Verma not in itself retrospective. However, I am persuaded by 109: Clause 146, page 113, line 32, leave out paragraph (c) and the Minister that perhaps the right course is for this to insert— go through the appeal process—I certainly do not think that it is a good idea for Parliament to interfere “( ) section 49 (transition to certificate purchase scheme);” with that—and then the situation should be looked 110: Clause 146, page 114, line 7, at end insert— at. I am highly persuaded by the argument put “( ) section (Closure of support under the renewables obligation) forward by my noble friend Lord Forsyth about the (closure of support under the renewables obligation);” reaction of the Scottish Government, in that clearly Amendments 109 and 110 agreed. the rule of law is the rule of law wherever we are within the United Kingdom, and I would never wish House adjourned at 10.10 pm.

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trying to have that single point of appeal. My preference Grand Committee is to have a single point of appeal so that parents know where they are going and for it to be included in the Wednesday, 6 November 2013. code of conduct. If that is not possible, is there any way for parents to be supported and guided through 3.45 pm the difficult processes? We are all interested in the well-being of the parent and the child or young person. Children and Families Bill I beg to move. Committee (9th Day) Baroness Hughes of Stretford (Lab): My Lords, I Relevant document: 7th, 9th and 11th Reports from support Amendment 181, moved by the noble Lord, the Delegated Powers Committee and 3rd Report from Lord Storey, to which I have added my name. I shall the Joint Committee on Human Rights. also speak to Amendments 182 and 272. To some extent, we are rehearsing today, in these amendments, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn) some of the arguments that we had earlier this week (Con): My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber about social care. They concern the fundamental question while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn for of how serious the Government are about instigating a 10 minutes. new system that is integrated right through from the point of early identification, assessment, provision Clause 51: Appeals and appeal. As the Bill stands, we have integrated assessment, at Amendment 181 least in the EHC plans, but we do not have equal accountability in terms of integration of provision Moved by Lord Storey because of the social care situation. Here we do not 181: Clause 51, page 38, line 12, at end insert— have integration from the very important perspective “(g) the social care provision specified in an EHC plan; of parents’ and children’s experience in relation to (h) the healthcare provision specified in an EHC plan” appeals. Therefore, I strongly support Amendment 181, which would add social care and healthcare provision Lord Storey (LD): I will be quite brief; I do not have specified in EHC plans to the First-tier Tribunal as a all my papers together. I feel that all of us in this mechanism of appeal. I would be grateful if, in his Room realise the importance of this piece of legislation. reply, the Minister would go beyond what he has We are looking to support the work that has been already said to us, which is that there are established going on. The needs of children with special educational routes of complaint about social care through local needs are not purely educational, or purely to do with authority complaints procedures and the Local health or social care; a combination of provision Government Ombudsman, and clear and specific routes might be needed. For the first time, as it says on the of redress within the NHS, its complaints processes label, parents will be supported by this legislation and and the health ombudsman. will not have to go through a great difficult bureaucratic Anybody who has tried to help a family to negotiate system. Their children will have a plan that will clearly those two avenues of appeal will know how complicated spell out their needs. I say again how much I appreciate they are. In addition, it is very important that, in the revised code of practice, which is excellent and relation to the substance of the complaint—as opposed shows clearly the steps that need to be taken. to maladministration—they do not end up with an If a parent wants to appeal against the fact that independent adjudication between the views of the they have not succeeded in gaining a plan, or if there complainant and the views of the service provider. are aspects of the plan that they are not happy about, The parents in this case would have to, for example, we should make it as easy as possible. As it says, this fully exhaust the local authority’s own complaints legislation concerns children and families; it is family- procedures as a first step; that could take many months. friendly and children-friendly. The notion that parents Of course, that adjudication is not independent; it is and the child or young person then have to go through the local authority adjudicating on the complaint. a labyrinthine method to resolve issues seems to go They can then go to the Local Government Ombudsman, against the grain of what we are trying to achieve. As but that person will adjudicate only on the principle of the document says, we are supporting parents all the maladministration—that is, on whether the authority way through. When there is an appeal, the code of has not followed the proper procedure. He will obviously conduct rightly refers to arbitration and how it can be not adjudicate on the substance of the complaint. It is resolved. However, if you then have to take your a similar situation in relation to health. “complaint” somewhere, you do not want to have to Therefore, if the parent has to negotiate those two go to three different bodies. You want to be able to systems, it can take a very long time. Many noble take it to one person or one body who can sort it out Lords will have had a number of pieces of correspondence for you one way or another. That seems to be in the from Jane Raca, who is a lawyer and author and has a whole spirit of this legislation. 13 year-old, very disabled son. She outlines the detail Without pre-empting what the Minister will say, I of the Local Government Ombudsman procedure and guess that he will point out that we are talking about shows that it takes months and sometimes years. I very different animals here. Health people are very know from my previous constituency experience that different from education people and local authorities. that is the case and, furthermore, it does not actually I understand that, and that it might cause problems in judge independently on the substance of the complaint. GC 63 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 64

[BARONESS HUGHES OF STRETFORD] I mainly want to pursue a more detailed point. It is The other important point is the one made by the clear that the parent can appeal to the Special Educational noble Lord, Lord Storey, that—by their nature, and Needs and Disability Tribunal, or SENDIST, about this is very welcome—EHC plans are meant to integrate the educational provision. As for health, the local an assessment around social care, health and special authority must include in the EHC plan, health provision educational needs. A severely disabled child is likely to reasonably required by the learning difficulty or disability have needs in all three categories, so a parent might that causes the special educational needs, and health have concerns or complaints about all three categories commissioners must secure that provision. However, it of need. Under the current arrangements, as the noble appears that the health commissioner has a veto. The Lord, Lord Storey, said very clearly, they would be draft regulations say that the health commissioner faced with the almost impossible task of appealing must agree the health provision. This raises the question: through three different systems at once, at the same what recourse has the parent if the local authority time as coping with a very disabled child and probably does not include the health provision in the plan or the other children in the family. That is just not reasonable. health commissioner does not agree it? If we came at this through the vision of the parent If the health provision is directly related to and contemplating that system, it would look impossible. supports the educational provision—for example, speech It would defeat many of us, let alone parents coping and language therapy delivered at school—the parent with very disabled children. Therefore, I really hope can appeal to SENDIST. However, if it is purely that the Minister will take this on board and see this health provision—for example, if it is delivered at very important and welcome principle of integration home—what opportunity does a parent have? I ask right the way through from assessment to appeal. the Minister: what opportunities do parents have to Our Amendment 182 would oblige the Secretary of challenge its non-provision or non-inclusion in the State to publish information about special educational plan? The Government may answer by referring to the needs cases going to the tribunal. We feel it is important NHS complaints procedure but, quite apart from the to bring much needed transparency into the system point that this involves the parent pursuing a second and put an end to practices by some, though not all, and separate challenge, I am not sure that a complaints local authorities, such as systematically taking cases to procedure is really the most effective way of enforcing court, keeping the cost down in the knowledge that the provision of something to which they feel they are many families will not challenge a decision or spend entitled. any money on legal fees, in order to avoid having to Similar arguments might presumably be made in pay for the provision in the first place—taking the step relation to social care provision, except that in that early of going to appeal, rather than trying to get a case the complaint would be a separate one against the local resolution. Whatever the Government decide, local authority. I would be most grateful if the Minister it is important that we regularly review which kind could respond to these points when he comes to reply. of cases are going to the tribunal and their outcomes, and that we have this information published 4pm regularly. Baroness Wilkins (Lab): My Lords, I add my strong Amendment 272 simply ensures that the detail of, support to Amendment 181. My noble friend Lady and any change to, the provisions in Clause 51(4)—that Hughes has just refereed to Jane Raca. Anyone who is, the regulations laid to provide for appeals to the has read her book, Standing Up for James, will know First-tier Tribunal—will be subject to an affirmative that there is an urgent need to improve the current resolution procedure through statutory instrument. It system of support for families with disabled children. is right that Parliament should be able to comment on However, the Government’s proposals for appeals risk the proposals for appeals that the Government put creating an even more complex system than already forward. exists, with different appeals or challenges having to be made simultaneously, as we have heard, about Lord Low of Dalston (CB): My Lords, I support the different parts of the EHC plan to different bodies. amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, to which In her book, Jane Raca recounts the situation of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, has also just spoken. her local vicar’s family. The Tomlinsons have six children, The general point must be right: there has to be a including Edmund, who is 14 and severely autistic. Ed unified route of appeal. There is no way that parents does not speak and has no sense of danger or of what can be expected to endure the hassle and aggravation is socially appropriate, He is very often awake at night, of pursuing three separate appeals or complaints if meaning that Matthew and Joanna, his parents, have they are not satisfied with the provisions that they are very little sleep. Although Ed’s statement provides for receiving. him to attend a weekly boarding school for autistic This would simply be to answer the bureaucratic children, he is at home every weekend and all school hassle identified in the Green Paper and the Lamb holidays. Despite that, his parents receive just 27 nights’ inquiry as driving parents to distraction by adding yet respite a year, which they try to eke out during the more layers of bureaucracy.I assume that the Government school holidays. They got that only when they broke have just been defeated by their own bureaucracy in down completely in front of their GP. delivering a unified route of appeal; maybe this will That is far too little support but, as Joanna Tomlinson give them some insight into how parents feel. To that, says, she just did not have the strength to fight for I simply say that they need to go away and try a bit what the family needed and for Ed’s needs to be harder. looked at holistically. The Bill holds out hope for that. GC 65 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 66

Joanna knew that her local authority would not have EHC plan, it would seem simpler to be able to appeal agreed to fund both the education and the social care to one place, the tribunal, so having the tribunal as a provision, and that she would have had to fight to single point of redress initially sounds attractive. However, appeal on both fronts. The Bill will perpetuate that there are reasons why I think this would be the wrong unless we accept these amendments. If we do not, course to take. parents will still have to face three different processes It would not be right to expand the tribunal’s remit if they wish to challenge the content of EHC plans. I to cover all health and social care provision set out in urge the Minister to accept this amendment. EHC plans. We have already debated at some length, when dealing with earlier clauses, why it would not be Lord Touhig (Lab): My Lords, I will just add a few right to create an individually owed duty for the social words. This multilayered system of appeal is absolutely care provision in a plan. That could lead to the insane and crying out to be altered. In Wales, we have marginalisation of other children in need under Section a word, “dwp”, which means stupid or daft in the 17 of the Children Act and harmfully affect local head. If a Nobel prize were awarded for daft bits of authorities’ ability to make the necessary social care red tape, this would get it. Surely the Government provision across all children in their areas. Extending must see the common sense and logic of reducing this the tribunal’s remit so that it could deal with social down to one system of appeal and stopping all the care appeals could potentially mirror that unwanted battles that people who have children with special consequence even if there was not an individually educational needs or disabilities, or children who are owed duty. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, said, autistic, must have to appeal a decision that they think we have rehearsed these arguments and I do not wish is not just, right or in the interests of their child. to go over them again, but I am sure that we will return to this issue on Report and I am very happy to discuss it further with noble Lords in the mean time. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for I say that it would “potentially”mirror that unwanted Schools (Lord Nash) (Con): My Lords, this group of consequence because including appeals about social amendments concerns appeals and mediation. I thank care in the tribunal’s remit as the Bill is currently noble Lords for their contributions. I begin with drafted would change the nature of the decisions the Amendment 181, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord tribunal could take. Whereas the tribunal would be Storey, the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, and the able to tell local authorities what special educational noble Lord, Lord Low. provision must be set out in a plan, without an individually As the noble Lord, Lord Storey, said, noble Lords owed social care duty the tribunal would be able to will know that the Bill is designed to bring education, take judicial review-type decisions only about social health and social care together, for the first time, in a care provision. That is, the tribunal would have jurisdiction joint enterprise to commission and make appropriate to review only the local authority’s decision, with provision for children and young people with special powers to quash and remit it for further consideration— educational needs. The child or young person and consideration which might result in the local authority their family will be at the centre of the new arrangements making the same decision. and have an enhanced role in deciding what is in the EHC plan. That will improve the experience of children, Your Lordships may well be saying to yourselves, their parents and young people, and the Bill will give “There’s an individually owed duty in health under them a more active role in agreeing the provision that this Bill, so at least you should extend the tribunal’s should be made and ensuring that it is made. This is remit to cover health”. However, that individually the joined-up system that the Green Paper talked owed duty in health is a duty to make the health about creating. We believe—and certainly hope—that provision set out in a plan following clinical judgments this will make the system less adversarial and mean taken in the light of the wider duties of clinical that fewer people will want to appeal to the tribunal. commissioning groups and the NHS to secure services to meet all the reasonable health needs of all children. This improvement in parents’ experience of the Widening the tribunal’s remit to cover health would system is being borne out in the pathfinders. For undermine these commissioning arrangements. It would example, in Hartlepool, the new process of assessment establish unequal treatment of children with serious is wholly transparent, with children, parents and young health needs by giving a privileged position to those people fully involved at all stages and able to contribute with SEN. It would be difficult to justify children with to the content of the EHC plan alongside professionals. SEN and health difficulties having stronger rights of It also includes a simplified complaints and comments redress than, say, children with cancer, neurological procedure to help parents and young people seek conditions, long-term conditions such as epilepsy or redress across all areas of the process locally, if it diabetes and mental health conditions who do not should become necessary. That is just the sort of have SEN. To avoid creating these inequalities between innovative local arrangement that we want to see, children and young people, it would be better if the improving the relationships between parents, young existing and well established routes of complaint in people and local authorities, and facilitating local health and social care were used rather than the tribunal. resolution of disputes. However, it would be silly to deny that, despite the improvements the Bill will bring, In social care, Section 26 of the Children Act 1989 there will continue to be people who are unhappy provides the framework for the complaints procedure about the provision set out in EHC plans. I quite for those under 18 which local authorities must establish. understand that for those among that cohort who In health, the relevant legislation prescribes that a want to complain about two or more elements in the responsible body must acknowledge the complaint GC 67 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 68

[LORD NASH] representation only because the other side did. If this within three days and they must offer the complainant amendment is designed to highlight poor practice by the opportunity to discuss the timing and procedure local authorities and to provide a basis for improving for resolving the complaint. Once that has been agreed, it, I believe the Bill already provides other avenues for the complaint must be investigated and, “as soon as doing so. Children, parents and young people will be possible” after completing the investigation, a written able to highlight what they feel is inadequate provision report must be sent to the complainant explaining through their role in the local offer. Local authorities how the complaint has been considered, the conclusions will be jointly commissioning services with clinical of the report and any remedial action which has been commissioning groups to make sure that the right taken or is proposed to be taken. This procedure could provision is available. The Bill is promoting better cover both what provision is set out in a plan and assessment arrangements, which, as I say, will mean complaints about delivery of the plan. Of course, it is that fewer parents and young people will want to vital that the parents of children with EHC plans and appeal to the tribunal and the mediation will offer the young people with plans, particularly the smaller group chance to resolve differences before appeals are registered. who want to complain about more than one area of In view of what I have said, I urge the noble Baronesses the plan, know how to do so. The Bill makes provision not to move the amendment. for parents and young people to be given information about the routes of complaint that are open to them. Amendment 272, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Clause 26, headed “Joint commissioning arrangements”, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones, relates to a requires local authorities and clinical commissioning recommendation from the Delegated Powers and groups to work together to offer joined-up advice, Regulatory Reform Committee. I reassure noble Lords information and responses to families and to establish who may be concerned that we have preserved the a clear complaints procedure relating to education, grounds for appeal and extended them to young people health and care provision. The outcome of that work over compulsory school age. The appeal regulations will be available through the local offer. set out clearly and in one place for the first time the mechanics for notices related to appeals, the powers The new code of practice will require that impartial the tribunal has when deciding appeals, time limits for information, advice and support should be commissioned compliance with tribunal decisions and what happens through joint arrangements and should be available with unopposed appeals. We are currently consulting through a single point of access with the capacity to on these regulations and will take account of responses handle initial phone, electronic or face-to-face inquiries. when we finalise them. They will be laid in the House It will also encourage clinical commissioning groups for approval by negative procedure. to ensure that relevant information is available at this single point of access as well as to include information The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform on their local health offer on their own website. A Committee recommended that the tribunal’s powers one-stop shop will be simpler and much more parent when deciding appeals should be in the Bill rather and young person-friendly than potentially having to than in secondary legislation and asked for an explanation go to more than one place for advice on a range of of why this approach is being taken. Alternatively, it issues, including how to complain. suggested that the regulations should be subject to the affirmative procedure, as Amendment 272 seeks. We My noble friend Lord Storey made the point that have put the tribunal’s powers in regulations to make the system may be confusing. I reassure him that we them simpler for the reader of this legislation. Instead are looking carefully at the best ways of achieving a of having the tribunal’s powers to determine appeals single point of access to address this, and I would be scattered over the legislation, as they are in the Education happy to discuss this further with noble Lords. We Act 1996, we want to bring them together in one place, share noble Lords’ concern to ensure that parents can along with the mechanics for how we expect an appeal find their way to the right route of redress easily. to proceed. Given that this is what we are seeking to achieve by these regulations, I believe that the negative Amendment 182 was tabled by the noble Baronesses, resolution procedure is proportionate. Lady Hughes and Lady Jones. When this amendment was debated in another place, it was pointed out that Government Amendments 183 and 184, regarding some of the information requested by it is already mediation, are in this group. It is important that the published by the Ministry of Justice on its website, whole of the mediation process set out in the Bill is including the number of appeals registered against seen by parents and young people to be independent each local authority. We are happy to explore with the of the local authorities. There are two stages to the Ministry of Justice the idea of jointly publishing data mediation process. First, the parents or young people on the SEND tribunal and, as part of this work, contact a mediation adviser to be given information whether the information could be expanded. about the mediation process. Currently, the Bill makes clear that the mediation adviser cannot be someone However, some of the information that is being who is employed by a local authority. If the parent or asked for by this amendment, such as the amount young person decides to go to mediation, the local local authorities spend on defending each case, would authority must arrange it within 30 days. Currently just increase contention in the system rather than there is no parallel provision in the Bill to make clear reduce it. Highlighting how much money was spent on that the person who conducts the mediation must also legal representation could create real tension between be independent of the local authority.These amendments parents and local authorities. We know, anecdotally, make the necessary changes to the Bill to ensure that that each party often says that they engaged legal mediators will be independent. GC 69 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 70

I hope that my response on all the issues that noble We cannot, just by will, say that bringing them all Lords have raised reassures them and that they will together will somehow stop there being a different feel able not to move their amendments. route for SEN children from that for other children, and that point has to be answered. 4.15 pm Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab): I listened very Lord Nash: The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, makes carefully to the Minister. I think we will all want to her point powerfully and well. I entirely agree with her read his comments in Hansard because it was quite a about the necessity of changing the culture and that in technical response, although I appreciate that that was some cases we may be dancing on the head of pin and absolutely necessary. I have a query about the phrase what matters is the practicality at the coal face. We “single point of access”, which I would not mind him need to make sure that we attempt to do this practically expanding on. and fairly so that we do not unreasonably advantage one group of children over another, as my noble friend A lot was said about the difficulties of parents in Lady Perry said. We will try to ensure that, with accessing more than one tribunal. That is right. Has further dialogue between now and Report, we all the Minister reflected on the message it gives to those understand where we are on this. people we are asking to integrate a service? A lot of people doubt that that can happen and will not take the Government seriously on this. If you really want Lord Low of Dalston: I did not quite follow the to change the culture of three separate public services, point that the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, made when you must not give them an excuse not to make the she talked about the danger of privileging children change. Throughout the discussion of this Bill, we with special educational needs over other children. have said that it is not about passing a law but about The fact is that we have a separate system that children changing the culture. Having such a pivotal part of the with special educational needs can get into, and if they whole procedure still split into three separate parts is do not have them they cannot do so. However, for actually saying, “At the end of day, we could not do it. those who can get into the system it is surely right that We wanted to integrate, but when it got to the tough it is the best possible system that we can make it and is bit, the bit about the appeal, we, the Government, immune from criticism on the sort of grounds that could not do it”. The naysayers will say, “There you have been advanced this afternoon regarding the need are. We told you it couldn’t be done”. I know it is not for a single point of redress. the Minister’s intention, but what will happen is that that will ripple down the system, and people will say Lord Storey: I very much welcome each contribution there that there is another inconsistency in what the on this amendment and thank the Minister for his Government say and that they say one thing and then response. I want to reflect carefully on what he has do a different thing. The bit of the process that is the said. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, that Government’s responsibility is the appeal. If we cannot we would have to consider carefully any suggestion of change government culture and get it integrated, we inequality or people being treated differently. As always, are undermining genuine attempts by the Government the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, puts her finger on to change the culture further along the channel. the issue. Those of us who have worked in education I was not clear about what the Minister said. He know that the culture of social services and health gave two responses. One was, “I really think this services—please do not take offence—is often different amendment is right, but I do not think it can be from that of education services, and friction and difficulties done”, and the other was, “I do not think this amendment can often occur. is necessary”. I was not sure which side he came down When I was researching this topic, I was thinking, on. It is important that we know that between now “Yeah, come on; it makes sense to have one single and Report because that will give those people who point of appeal, doesn’t it? Who could argue against feel strongly about this an indication of where the that?”. But then people say to me, “Oh no, because, campaigning needs to be done. because, because”. I would want to test that a little I end on this single point of access. I wonder more thoroughly. It would have been interesting if the whether the Minister was actually saying that he has a Government had put it the other way around and said, compromise that he might suggest on Report around “We want you to make this work. Never mind your something called a single point of access. I am sorry different cultures; we want one point of appeal. Go for the long intervention, but what we can expect on away and do it”. When they come back with the work Report in terms of a direction of travel is important so we would then see whether it was possible. I really that people who have put a lot of work into preparing want to interrogate this issue because it surely makes these amendments will be able to marshal their arguments. sense. Finally, I thank the Minister and welcome his Baroness Perry of Southwark (Con): Ihaveagreat comments on Amendments 183 and 184. I beg leave to deal of sympathy with what the noble Baroness said. withdraw the amendment. It is true that the excitement of the Bill is in the bringing together of these three services, but the noble Amendment 181 withdrawn. Baroness’s argument has not answered the Minister’s point about giving priority to SEN children over children Clause 51 agreed. who are very sick with cancer or other diseases. It is inherent in the system that that problem will remain. Amendment 182 not moved. GC 71 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 72

Clause 52: Mediation realistically be able to arrange special educational provision outside the UK. I am concerned that, without the extent of this clause being specified, local authorities Amendments 183 and 184 might be expected to arrange provision in countries Moved by Lord Nash outside the United Kingdom. It might well be in the United States, for example, or in the Middle East, and 183: Clause 52, page 39, line 15, leave out paragraph (b) and insert— this would be extremely expensive for a local authority to provide. It would certainly raise expectations that “(b) the authority must— the local authority would do so. Parents may take (i) arrange for mediation between it and the parent or cases to appeal if my amendment is not accepted. The young person, amendment would provide for special educational needs (ii) ensure that the mediation is conducted by an provision to be arranged elsewhere in the United independent person, and Kingdom, but not in other countries. I think this is (iii) participate in the mediation.” reasonable, and I beg to move. 184: Clause 52, page 39, leave out lines 38 and 39 and insert— “( ) For the purposes of subsections (6)(b)(ii) and (8), a person who is employed by a local authority in England is not Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to the independent.” noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, for moving her amendment, although initially I thought it did not Amendments 183 and 184 agreed. have the effect that she desired. Children and young people should be placed in the right setting to meet Clause 52, as amended, agreed. their needs. It is right that if the appropriate setting is in either Scotland or Northern Ireland, local authorities Clauses 53 to 56 agreed. should have the power to place children and young people there and meet or contribute to the costs of the placement. The Bill as drafted would allow for such Clause 57: Special educational provision otherwise placements. than in schools, post-16 institutions etc In line with what the noble Baroness said, Clause 58 Amendment 185 not moved. is drafted in the way it is, mentioning England and Wales in particular, because the Bill covers England and Wales. Clause 58 allows local authorities to place Clause 57 agreed. children and young people with EHC plans anywhere else in the world, including Scotland and Northern Clause 58: Special educational provision outside Ireland, and to meet or contribute to the costs of the England and Wales placement. I acknowledge the noble Baroness’s point about the costs, but they can still do it. There are a very few cases where children have been placed outside Amendment 186 the UK. Unfortunately, the effect of the noble Baroness’ Moved by Baroness Greengross amendment would be that local authorities would still be able to place children and young people in schools 186: Clause 58, page 42, line 42, after “Wales” insert “, or colleges in Scotland and Northern Ireland but they Scotland and Northern Ireland” would not be able to pay or contribute towards the costs. Baroness Greengross (CB): My Lords, the purpose On the noble Baroness’s aim of specifying the limits of my amendment is to specify the territorial limits to of what local authorities are expected to provide, she where councils are expected to fund arrangements. I is right to seek to clarify the extent of local authorities’ declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local responsibilities for arranging provision outside the Government Association. Protecting children and helping UK. As she said, this is a power, not a duty. It to provide for their future is, I am sure we all agree, replicates the current arrangement and does not place one of the most important things that councils do. I a demand on local authorities. I hope, with that therefore wholeheartedly welcome most of the provisions explanation, the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw in the Bill, but I am concerned about certain measures her amendment in due course. in Clause 58 that would enable local authorities to arrange special educational provision for a young person with an EHC plan outside England and Wales. Baroness Eaton (Con): I found it interesting that the This clause enables local authorities to make provision Minister said that very few people use the opportunity in an institution that specialises in providing for special to be placed abroad. If it is on the face of the Bill to educational needs and gives them power to pay for or this extent, it might become more attractive to want to contribute to the costs of the child or young person go further afield. It might become a fashion to seek who attends such an institution, which might, quite support from other countries, where sometimes we rightly, include travelling and accommodation costs hear of innovative things that are not necessarily for someone to accompany the child or young person. proven. I would be seriously concerned—knowing This clause gives local authorities the power—not a that local authorities could potentially have huge black duty—to make this provision, but demands on resources holes in years to come—about how on earth this will at the moment, as we all know, make it difficult to be funded. Even if it involves only a few children, it envisage the circumstances when local authorities would will be a sizeable bill. When local authorities are in GC 73 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 74 danger of going bankrupt in some places, it is Clause 59: Fees for special educational provision at inappropriate to impose an open-ended commitment non-maintained schools and post-16 institutions on them. I realise that it is an option—it is not something that is being forced on local authorities—but Amendments 187 and 188 not moved. it will cause huge issues when people are refused the opportunity if they wish for it. Clause 59 agreed.

4.30 pm Clauses 60 and 61 agreed. Earl Attlee: I think it would be helpful if I reminded the Committee that provisions in the Bill do not Clause 62: Using best endeavours to secure special change any arrangements. If it is found to be cost-effective educational provision to send a child overseas as part of the EHC plan, no doubt that will be done. However, as the noble Baroness Amendment 189 not moved. explained, that will be an extremely expensive option and therefore will be most unusual. Amendment 190 Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB): My Lords, I must Moved by Lord Addington say I find this extremely confusing. I share the concern 190: Clause 62, page 44, line 39, at end insert— that the result of it all may be that the opposite “(g) apprenticeship training providers.” happens: that is, that there is rather more demand for this activity once it looks as if this sort of arrangement could be made almost around the world. Do noble Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, I draw my attention Lords think that it might be more sensible to devote a and that of the Committee to the subject of little more time to this issue and perhaps have a apprenticeships and dyslexia and special educational meeting with the experts so that the right wording is needs generally. In doing so, I return to a subject put into the Bill? I do not know whether others feel as which I feel I have imposed on Members of this House I do, but this is a bit confusing. rather too often over the past few years. Although I suspect that one or two noble Lords present will have heard everything about it, most have heard some of it Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am always delighted to and some have heard most, so I apologise for going have meetings with noble Lords and I am sure that my over the ground again. However, it all goes back to the noble friend Lady Northover would be delighted to 2009 Act, brought in by the previous Government, have a meeting on this and perhaps look into it in a bit and the principle that people should be able to pass a more detail. qualification in English and maths. At the time, I said that that requirement would make things extremely Baroness Greengross: I thank the Minister for his difficult for those in the dyslexic spectrum, and received reply and thank noble Lords who supported the measure a degree of assurance that it would not be used as a and understood what I was trying to say about raising barrier. expectations and clever lawyers appealing decisions, I then said, “Oh, that’s done” and forgot about it. which might lead to very difficult situations for local Just over a year later, I received the first of a series of authorities. I share the view that local authorities communications from Lynn McCann about her son should do their very best to obtain the correct provision, David, who had passed all the components of a carpentry certainly as regards Scotland. The amendment would course, except for the English requirement because he make it much simpler to envisage Scotland being part was dyslexic. The normal way of getting through an of this. I would be happy to meet the Minister and exam if you have a problem with dyslexia is—we colleagues who feel as I do. The matter just needs touched on this earlier with my assistive technology clarifying and limiting. In current circumstances, I amendment—to dictate the exam to someone. It is should not like to see a local authority being almost nice and simple; it is easy for a person to programme. put on trial for something that, realistically, it is not This cannot be done for this qualification for the expected to be able to do, much as it might wish to. I simple reason that you have to pass it yourself. thank the noble Earl for his reply. The logic behind it seemed quite overwhelming at the time. The big employers had said that they wanted Earl Attlee: My Lords, as I said, I would be delighted people who were good at certain things, such as basic to have a meeting. However, it may help the Committee skills in English and maths. When you think about if I point out that this is a provision in the 1996 Act, so that for a few seconds it starts to fall apart because we do not think that it will increase demand from this employers also want people who do not get sick, who point. do not have children who get sick and who do not ask for pay rises. These are all attractive things to employers. Baroness Greengross: I thank the Minister, but I So far, we have a situation where people cannot would still like to take up the offer of a meeting. On take the exam. When I first raised this—it was more that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. than three years ago so I apologise for the brief history lesson—I was told, “Let’s go and meet the Minister”. Amendment 186 withdrawn. The Minister said, “That’s ridiculous, let’s sort it out”. I then went to my first big meeting, where I was told Clause 58 agreed. that there was a problem, and then to another meeting GC 75 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 76

[LORD ADDINGTON] I started with dyslexia, but I discovered that that is not where I was told that the legislation states that the the only group affected. The Alliance for Inclusive candidate has to pass the exam, we cannot do anything Education, known as ALLFIE, a group that I do not about it and assistive technology cannot be used because always agree with, says that it has found similar problems it is a test of their skills. I have since discovered that for those with learning disabilities. We have a system that is rubbish. It can be done and the main area of that is not sensitive to special educational needs. To concern is apparently the formatting of the exam; that include these amendments would start to encourage it is, the way that it is written down in the computer to become so. language is not compatible with assistive technology. We are in Grand Committee. I regard this as the Therefore, it does not read it back properly and the first round in the end game. I have been going on at types of communication get into trouble. Members of this House for far too long on this matter. In the course of this debate I may hear that this has I should not have had to in the first place. I accept that changed. If I hear that it has all changed, is all the cock-up school of history has got in there somewhere. wonderful and tomorrow we can go away and forget I do not think that anyone seriously intended this to about this, nobody will be quicker out of the door happen. But we should surely take the opportunity in than me. However, I suspect that that will not be the this Bill to change it. To go back to the first meeting I case. We ask ourselves: why is this important? I have had when an official told me that it was in the legislation, heard some pretty dreadful things from officials in this my reply was, “We change legislation in Parliament, case. One which I played for a laugh last time—I do don’t we? We do it all the time”. I did not think I not think I will do it again—was somebody who said, would have to wait this long and I thought it was a “Well, nobody’s complained about it so it can’t be a stalling action at the time. Can we have some final big problem”. I said, “You mean nobody has written action? to you or sent you a long e-mail”. It is good; it still If I am offered a meeting, may I draw on another works. At the time, his face went through an interesting fact? The British Dyslexia Association has had a series change of colour as he realised what he had said. of 60 meetings on this. I have come to the conclusion Before that, I had heard that nobody would lose their that the lead negotiator, the person who has taken on job. To go back to David McCann, no, he would not the role of saint and poor bloody infantry in this, one lose his job because he works for his father. I suggest Sue Flohr, probably has a secret admirer in one of the that changing his job without this qualification is like departments who wants to keep on meeting her. If you stamping “NEET” across his forehead and sending have had 60 meetings, something is very wrong. With him out there. one you accept that there is a problem but two means I realise that I have done the classic thing that you have not come up with an answer. I suggest that everyone with dyslexia, or on any disability spectrum, somebody somewhere has to start making sure that a does and used myself as too much of an example. practical change is made. This has gone on for too Many dyslexics might get by with support, even taking long and has affected too many people, and I have not a written, or in this case a keyboard-based, examination. even gone on about all those who have failed. Lots of However, my Amendments 190 and 194 suggest that people have failed; what has happened to them? There support should be provided for apprenticeships within may be a case for that later in the Bill. Something has the college structure. At the moment, there is not to happen. much teaching done by qualified teachers, and there is I leave with one example. The British Dyslexia no desire or embracement. As the noble Baroness, Association has a series of examples through its helpline. Lady Morris, said, the culture for providing assistance You have to be pretty lucky or desperate to find your is not there. The amendment makes it explicit. way to the helpline of that small charity on this Amendment 192A makes it explicit that the technical subject. A girl called Sophie was doing a visual support should be included. I am sorry to jump around merchandising apprenticeship. I will not go into the a bit—we dyslexics do that—but the argument against details, but her college basically said, “You ain’t going technical support is an interesting one. I have subsequently to pass, so we ain’t entering you”. That is the worst heard that to reformat and include it would be against condemnation of this situation that I have come across: the security of the examination. You would think this “You ain’t going to pass, so we’re not interested”. I was so serious that a nuclear launch code was intrinsic suggest that colleges are probably getting wise to the to this English assessment exam. A dyslexic who could fact that if you are dyslexic you will have a problem, memorise and do the exact test for this examination is but “We ain’t going to take you” is only one step away not a dyslexic. Spellings cannot be restored and sequential from that background knowledge. To go back to the thought in the areas of the brain that handle language culture and experience raised by the noble Baroness, do not work well enough for that. So that is one group Lady Morris, we must do something that makes this who could not cheat at this, and I suspect that there explicit now. It must be something that has an end are a few others who could not do the English language game attached to it. I beg to move. test either. The maths test is also a problem, especially as I have it on good authority that anyone who uses strange language to describe the information and, if it 4.45 pm is written down, does not understand the words, cannot Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I wholeheartedly work with it. support the passionate plea of my noble friend. I do All I am saying is that for apprenticeships, a system not believe that, when the Labour Government brought for saying that you have acquired a practical skill in the original Bill, their intention was to totally should be accessible to those who have disabilities. exclude young people with dyslexia from the possibility GC 77 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 78 of ever completing an apprenticeship. I do not believe because I was disappointed that although this clause that it is the intention of this Government either. I has, “Using best endeavours” in its title, there was no accept that it may be a little tricky to sort this out and reference to a sense of urgency. Urgency is needed, as that this is probably the first legislative opportunity to has been vividly explained by the noble Lord, Lord change the legislation that inadvertently produced this Addington, because people who have been identified situation, so we must make use of it. with a possible SEN must be given the opportunity of I am very proud of this Government’s record on developing as soon as possible so that their valuable apprenticeships but they must not exclude talented time is not wasted. That is the purpose of my amendment. young people who are able to get through all the practical side of the apprenticeship, often with flying Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I very much colours, and show tremendous commitment, hard work, support this group of amendments and we have heard conscientiousness and all those qualities that we are passionate speeches about this whole area. Autism looking for, but simply need a little help with written and other such problems that individuals face are material. That help, once given, will enable them not issues of which people are increasingly aware. Above just to get through the exam but to move on into a all, it is vital that we support the noble Lord, Lord career. If we can sort this out, it will also send a Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, message to employers that says, “There are a lot of in what they have said. We will be creating more talented people here who have gone through their valuable qualified members of the community and apprenticeships with a little bit of help and they will making a life for people who have had much less of a prove to be very worthwhile employees to you if you life in the past. take them on, post-apprenticeship, as long as you give If we take the point just made by my noble friend, them a little help”. I think that many local authorities there are many more people who have dyslexia or one can help employers to do that. What is the alternative? of these forms of problem. We just do not know how As my noble friend said, they end up with “NEET” on many there may be, but I would not mind betting that their foreheads. That is what we do not want. It causes if you asked everybody in this Room, there would be a the young people and their families a great deal of lot of people who have relatives with addictions of one distress and, in the end, there can be long-term costs form or another, dyslexia, autism or whatever. I hope to young people from not being in employment, education we can give enormous support to this. I see the noble or training. Lord has more amendments later, and I think they These young people have a chance and we must need our support as well. make sure that they get it. It is soul-destroying when they start the apprenticeship, get through all the rest of it, and then find that they cannot complete it and The Countess of Mar (CB): My Lords, I, too, get that important certificate because they cannot support the noble Lord, Lord Addington. The noble complete the written part. We really have to sort this and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, hit the nail out and we have to do it now. on the head when she said that she has relatives who have been to university and got degrees, with assistance, because they are dyspraxic. My granddaughter has Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB): My Lords, several members dyspraxia. She is at the University of Lincoln at the of my family have varying degrees of dyslexia. All are moment and doing very well. She is getting “ones” able and intelligent, and have talents. My daughter-in-law, right across the board because she is given extra time who has moderate dyslexia, has an excellent degree to do her written work. That has been accepted. Why from the University of Bristol. It can be done but do we not do it with apprenticeships? It seems ridiculous these people must have extra. That group of young that we are putting these kids on the scrapheap. We people who want apprenticeships will be a loss to the criticise young people for not going out to work, and country if they cannot get through the necessary when they try to get qualifications, we fail them. To exams. It is a major advantage for the country to make fail is disillusioning for these youngsters. They will not sure that they get through. The noble Lord, Lord want to go to work if they think nobody wants them. Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, The noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, have put this case extremely well. It is a relatively Lady Walmsley, have a very valid point. simple matter and I endorse the excellent work done by this Government in many respects, particularly on Baroness Wilkins: I support this group of amendments. apprenticeships, but we should not leave out this important I am mildly dyslexic, and I assure noble Lords that in group. The funny thing about this is that it is often not terms of daily frustration, it is a million times more properly appreciated that an enormous number of frustrating than being in a wheelchair. There is a great young people are dyslexic. Let us get out there, find deal of support for being in a wheelchair, but there is them, help them and make them really useful members very little support for being dyslexic. The Government of society—without, as the noble Baroness, Lady are to be admired for their commitment to apprenticeships, Walmsley, said, “NEET” across their foreheads. and it seems a tragedy that it should be undermined in this way, so I beg the Minister to accept these amendments. Lord Ramsbotham (CB): My Lords, my amendment is very short and applies to many other aspects of this Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, the noble Lord, part of the Bill, particularly anything connected with Lord Addington, has had a pretty good run for his assessment and further work, which, as my amendment money and has got not only unanimous but very states, should happen as soon as possible. I tabled it voluble support from the other Members of the GC 79 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 80

[LORD LOW OF DALSTON] are a simple and effective way of recording targets, Committee. I would not detract from that one whit. I putting support in place and tracking the child’s progress. support every word he said and what others have While they might not always be used as effectively as added, but I wonder whether I may crave the Committee’s they might be, would it not be better to seek to indulgence to make a slight change of subject. improve the way IEPs are used than to scrap them I shall speak to Amendment 192 in this group, altogether? which is tabled in my name and the names of the noble The Government are not opposed to schools retaining Lord, Lord Touhig, and the noble Baroness, Lady these types of records. The draft code says that schools Sharp. It is a probing amendment which would require should keep records and that these can be shared with schools to retain the current system of school action parents. Again, therefore, one is prompted to ask why and school action plus. We may not have formulated the Government are getting rid of something so valued the amendment perfectly, and I am sure there is room by parents when they continue to support the principles for plenty of discussion about how it might be focused behind it. I would be extremely grateful if, when he or targeted more precisely. I am anxious to learn more responds to the debate, the Minister could set out the about the Government’s thinking in seeking to abolish Government’s thinking and give us the rationale for the current stages of school action and school action these changes and, in particular, the evidence on which plus. As we know, the Government are replacing that they are based. It seems that the Government still graduated approach with a single SEN category. The support the principles of a graduated approach and amendment refers to schools, but my concerns also keeping good records, so it is important that we understand relate to how early years settings and post-16 institutions why we need what is really quite a major change. will meet the needs of children and young people with SEN. Baroness Perry of Southwark: I have no wish to My reason for tabling this amendment is that, like continue this debate for too long. I first declare the the Government, I believe that policy should be developed interest that I, too, have a very dyslexic granddaughter. on the basis of robust evidence. Changing the way the The fact that so many of us are able to point to SEN system operates in every English school and younger family members with dyslexia marks how early years setting could be very disruptive. We need to much better diagnoses have got in the past 20 or be sure that any change will genuinely improve outcomes 30 years. Previously, people were very often thought to for children and young people before we embark on be rather stupid, so the diagnosis has greatly improved what is quite a major change. From what we have things. We have come a very long way in providing heard so far, it seems that the Government’s intention good diagnoses and excellent treatment at school level. here is to improve the identification of special educational Dyslexic boys and girls get a tremendous amount of needs. The Ofsted report, A Statement is not Enough, help in school: they get more time for their examinations, published in 2010, suggested that some children and technological help and so on. In the university world, young people were being wrongly identified as having there is enormous help: large numbers of dyslexic special educational needs. young people taking final examinations get special help, extra time and all that is necessary. It seems Improving the identification of special educational absurdly wrong that, at a time when we have expanded needs is a goal everyone would support. However, my apprenticeships—and like the noble Baroness, Lady understanding is that the Ofsted report did not in any Walmsley, I am immensely proud of what this way indicate that the problem resided in the graduated Government have done about apprenticeships—we approach of school action and school action plus. The have left this lacuna in the middle of the provisions. same is true of the Lamb inquiry, which also picked Schools do well and universities do well, yet when it up on the issue of identification, but did not indicate comes to apprenticeships we have this absurd drafting in any of its 51 recommendations that the problem of legislation—probably a slip of the pen—which arose from school action and school action plus. Neither makes it impossible for dyslexics, and people who have of these important investigations proposed the removal other handicaps to do with writing and speaking, to of the current system, so I wonder on what evidence get through. I hope that the Minister will not just say the Government are basing their decision to move to a that it is all okay and that nothing needs to be done. I single category of SEN. Everyone has been encouraged really believe that something could so easily be done in by the reference in the recently published draft code of this legislation now, and this is a good opportunity to practice to “a graduated response”. Since the Government do it. remain committed to a graduated response, which is provided by school action and school action plus, one wonders why they are so insistent on the need for this 5pm change. Lord Touhig: My Lords, no one in this Grand I should also like to pick up on the fact that the Committee could doubt that the noble Lord, Lord draft code of practice removes guidance on the use of Addington, has won the argument. He has been passionate individual education plans. IEPs were a key feature of and powerful; it is simple, common sense and perfectly the school action and school action plus system. They logical. I say to the Minister: be bold. He should set set out educational targets, the agreed SEN support aside the brief that his officials have given him and say and how progress would be measured. They require that he simply agrees with the noble Lord, Lord schools to involve children, young people and their Addington. I promise that the sky will not fall in, and parents in the process and are vital for parents when the Government will not continue to be in the position holding schools to account. When used properly, IEPs of defending the indefensible. GC 81 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 82

I will now say a few words in support of Lord Storey: I want to make a few points on both Amendment 192. Clause 62 refers to using the best these amendments. I do not particularly like award endeavours to secure special educational provision, ceremonies, but if there was one, the award for the and Amendment 192 would reinsert the graduated most persistent Lord—the “dog fighting for a bone” response. The key is ensuring that children get the award—would have to go to the noble Lord, Lord support that they need to access the curriculum, whether Addington. No sooner had he become a Lord than he this is through a single category or a more graduated was on at me about how important this matter is. response. The system that we are losing is popular and From time to time, we should applaud each other’s is understood and trusted by parents and educators. It efforts. I very much applaud his efforts on this. ensures that children and young people get the support The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, that they need. As I understand it, the draft code of about the support that universities and schools give practice replaces school action and school action plus was important. I know that we do not particularly like with a single SEN, the SEN support. As I understand giving anecdotal tales, but I will give one. A close the Government’s argument, they see the creation of a friend of mine has a daughter who has mild cerebral single SEN category as a way of improving the palsy. She is dyslexic and dyspraxic. The support that identification of SEN youngsters. If we accept that, she had at school was amazing. She went on to the will the Minister explain how this will improve the University of Leeds, where she was given a scribe to educational outcomes for children and young people help her work and so forth. When she had difficulty in with SEN? her first year, the university let her repeat the year. She The Government’s preferred route will be hugely repeated a term and has now passed and—guess what— disruptive, with teachers and SENCOs being diverted she is doing a master’s degree. If we can give that from their core role of providing high-quality education. support in higher education and schools, we should I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Low of give it for apprentices as well. Dalston, and want to see clear evidence that this will improve outcomes for children. If there is no evidence, Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I would just like to why do this? point out that the support given in further education colleges, which provide much of the off-the-job training for apprentices, is also considerable. They also provide Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD): My Lords, I scribes and so forth. The problem is the accreditation also support the noble Lord, Lord Low, in procedures that are required for apprenticeships. It is a Amendment 192. While the new draft code of practice very narrow issue and it is quite absurd that we have certainly indicates that the responsibility is for schools not been able to solve it. to individualise the provision that they make for those with special educational needs, the old categories of Lord Storey: I thank my noble friend for that. school action and school action plus were nevertheless I now turn to the graduated approach. We have useful in identifying and putting down some precise come a long way in special educational needs, have we markers in this graduated response. not? Schools must have SENCOs and a written policy. It is perhaps useful to quote the old SEN code of That is all to be applauded. The code of conduct practice on what school action plus was: clearly says that there has to be a qualified teacher “At School Action Plus external support services, both those working at the school, and that a newly appointed provided by the LEA and by outside agencies, will usually see the SENCO must be a qualified teacher and have the child, in school if that is appropriate and practicable, so that they appropriate qualifications. Of course, we have SENCOs can advise teachers on new IEPs with fresh targets and accompanying strategies, provide more specialist assessments that can inform in schools who do not have those qualifications and planning and the measurement of a pupil’s progress, give advice we may need at some stage to visit that issue. The on the use of new or specialist strategies or materials, and in some SENCO is important. You can have all the policies in cases provide support for particular activities”. the world but the SENCO makes them happen. There is particular concern about the readiness of When we were talking about this—and I have SENCOs within schools to take on the role of the experience of school action, school action plus and outside specialist. Schools can still pull in and employ IEPs—I was quite alarmed. I said, “Man the barricades”. outside specialists, but the number of specialists available But the code of practice is a realistic response. It is through local authorities has been much decreased clear in all sorts of ways. It states, on initial identification: because of pressure on local authorities, and so it is “As part of a graduated approach to tackling need … reviews not always possible for them to access this outside of progress should be held once a term”. speciality these days. Maybe that “should” should be “must”. It continues If we look at the pathfinder results, there were by stating that, frequent references to the need for further workforce “there should be a plan that focuses on what outcomes are development and support for the cultural change that expected and the support that the school, college and any relevant the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, referred to. That agencies will provide”. highlights the fact that there needs to be support for I applaud the document and I am more relaxed about teachers. Appropriate support is vital. Training for the issue. teachers is vital, too, but training also takes resources, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Low, that I thought not least because when teachers go on training courses that IEPs were a real step forward, but my experience they need somebody to replace them in the school. I of them is that in many cases, sadly, they have become ask the Minister to look favourably on this amendment, paper-writing exercises and increase the bureaucracy. which makes a lot of sense. What is needed is a much more focused and realistic GC 83 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 84

[LORD STOREY] needs of the child, requires schools to review how approach, which is why I like the fact that the code effective their support is and involves parents much states that the teacher has to meet the parents once a more closely. This is exactly the sort of graduated term and discuss the progress that has been made, approach that I believe the noble Lord, Lord Low, and presumably outside the normal parents’ evening. other noble Lords are calling for. I am slightly relaxed about the concern about school The noble Lord, Lord Low, in effect asked for action and school action plus. What is in a name? It is evidence of the need for change. We are making these not about a name. It is about an approach, an ethos, a changes because, as Ofsted’s 2010 review of SEN culture and a doing mentality. I am sure that the found, progress we are making on that will help towards it. “current systems focus too much on whether pupils receive additional services, and too little on the impact of their support”. Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB): We could In the other place, my honourable friend the Minister talk about both these amendments all night. I just for Children and Families made a commitment that, want to say two sentences. First, I agree with the noble while developing the code, we would refine these proposals Lord, Lord Storey. It is not about the name but about through work with a broad range of experts. Since what will happen in the process on the ground in then, officials within the Department for Education relation to that amendment. Returning to the noble have met academics, school leaders, members of the Lord, Lord Addington, I agree with the noble Baroness, Special Educational Consortium and more than 300 Lady Sharp. We need to focus on the very narrow issue SENCOs. We are extremely grateful to all those who of ensuring that this process can be taken forward. gave their time. As a result, I believe that the current Quite frankly, the Labour Government should have code provides a much clearer framework for schools, got this into their apprenticeship legislation when they informed by those working directly with pupils. brought it forward in the previous Parliament. If the Minister cannot do what the noble Lord suggests, I 5.15 pm hope he will take this away, look at it and come back That is reflected in the support for this approach on Report. That is the simplest way, and it is achievable. from experts such as Brian Lamb, author of the Lamb inquiry report, who described the draft code as “a real Lord Low of Dalston: I entirely agree with the noble step forward”, with a greater focus on outcomes and Lord, Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady parental involvement. My noble friend Lord Storey Howarth, about the name. It is not the name that is was complimentary when he spoke to his Amendment important. What is important is that we have a graduated 181 earlier. Lorraine Petersen, chief executive of NASEN, approach and that we have some way of institutionalising formerly the National Association for Special Educational that so that there can be no doubt that that is the Needs, says that the new approach to SEN support is, system being operated. “just as effective as the current School Action/School Action Plus system. In fact, it should be better because of the emphasis on quality teaching and on measuring the impact of the support that Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble is used”. Lords who have spoken in this debate. Turning to the The code makes absolutely explicit that schools are suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, I still required to apply the sort of graduated response am a new kid in this school, but I intend to survive the that the noble Lord, Lord Low, is calling for. Section next reshuffle, whenever that may be. 6.5 requires them to: match support to needs, including The amendments in this group all seek in different by reviewing the impact of support; keep a record of ways to amend Clause 62, which puts a duty on the support provided and the progress made by pupils; appropriate authorities to use their best endeavours to involve specialists where initial support is not enough; secure special educational provision. It is clearly a very and involve parents directly in shaping the support important issue. provided to their child and in regular meetings to In answer to my noble friend Lord Addington, I review how their child is progressing. have not heard too much from him, and I doubt I ever The noble Lord, Lord Low, suggested that the code will. I suffered from mild dyslexia when I was young, removes IEPs. We are clear, in the code, that children’s as did my father. I struggled with maths and English, progress and the provision made for them should be but in engineering workshop theory and practice, I got recorded, but we do not want a bureaucratic system a grade 1 assessment and O-level, whereas in maths I when the job can be done efficiently through the got 9 double-minus. school records. The code also allows for the essential On Amendment 192, the noble Lords, Lord Low differences between early years education, school support and Lord Touhig, along with my noble friend Lady and further education. This amendment would require Sharp are absolutely correct to emphasise that schools a single approach across all those stages. should match the support that they provide to the I hope that this provides the necessary reassurance child’s needs. This is known in practice as a graduated that these proposals retain the most important elements approach, and we are going to keep it. I agree with my of the current system, while also improving it. I hope noble friend Lord Storey and the noble Baroness, the Committee agrees that the code of practice is the Lady Howarth, that it is not so much the name that most appropriate place to set out such detail, rather matters but the approach. than the Bill. The new SEN code of practice replaces school Amendment 191, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord action and school action plus with a simplified approach Ramsbotham, would require that education providers to SEN support. This focuses attention on the individual secure special educational provision “as early as possible”. GC 85 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 86

It is extremely difficult to disagree with the intention computer readers and so that they become more widely behind this amendment. In fact, I believe it is already available for those candidates who need to use them. inherent in the current clause and in the detail of the The door is clearly open for schools, colleges and draft SEN code of practice. I do not think you can use others to get the support that pupils and students your best endeavours if you delay putting in place the need. As such technologies become more common in support. Ensuring that needs are picked up and support the classroom and on courses, they will become more is put in place as quickly as possible is one of the main widely used in exams. aims of our reforms. I entirely support the aspiration behind the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Baroness Howarth of Breckland: The Minister lost Lord Ramsbotham, but do not believe that amending me for a moment. I am trying to follow him carefully the Bill as proposed would help fulfil that aspiration. but if we have such good practice as the noble Earl is That is better achieved through the specific guidance describing, and all this is now possible, why can we not set out in the code of practice and by ensuring that it simply accept the amendment and move on? identifies the key points at which there are opportunities to intervene early and tackle SEN as early as possible. Baroness Walmsley: I may have misheard my noble Amendment 192A, tabled by my noble friend Lord friend but when he gave a list of all the different kinds Addington, would require education providers to secure of exams for which these assisted technologies are assistive technology and accessible publications in available, I do not recall hearing him mention classrooms and assessments. I entirely agree that this apprenticeships. support should be available. The Equality Act 2010 already places duties on education providers and exam boards to make reasonable adjustments for disabled Lord Addington: My Lords, perhaps I may clarify children and young people. These adjustments include, the situation. It is the functional skills test and, before where appropriate, access arrangements such as extra it, the key skills tests that are the problem. There has time and the use of computer readers or modified always been a much better attitude towards GCSEs, formats of publication. These legal duties are well A-levels and degrees. I should draw noble Lords’ understood and organisations can be challenged under attention to my interest as chairman of a firm that the Equality Act where they do not fulfil them. My provides some of the kit for the DSA, which for a noble friend Lord Addington has made representations dyslexic is voice-operated technology—the stuff that I to Ministers about some of the practical and technological use that was initially provided by the House of Lords barriers to making examinations more accessible. I authorities. So there is an establishment. The problem know that he is concerned that progress in this area is with this one set of exams, which are crucial to needs to accelerate, and I have some sympathy with getting this qualification, in which the dyslexics—who that argument. are 10% of the population in this country and 20% in Ofqual—the independent exam regulator in America—should be overrepresented. Even if this would England—the exam boards and the British Dyslexia be appropriate for only half those dyslexics, that would Association, which is championing these technologies, still represent a hell of a lot of people. are already collaborating to remove these barriers. The Joint Council for Qualifications, the JCQ, represents Earl Attlee: My Lords, I have already said that I am the seven largest providers of qualifications in the not entirely satisfied and have some sympathy with the UK. It provides a detailed guide to accessing such points made by my noble friend Lord Addington. technologies and other access arrangements in GCSEs, However, I have not finished my speech and have not A-levels and other commonly used qualifications. The reached the point about apprentices. most recent guide makes clear that a candidate can use I return to what we have achieved already. Personally, a computer reader where they have, I was not aware that such welcome advances have been “language and vocabulary difficulties which have a substantial made. I hope I have convinced my noble friend Lord and long term adverse effect on”, Addington that there is not a legislative gap in relation their ability to access written text. The guide also, for to such technology, and that there is good progress the first time, makes clear how electronic PDF copies and continued willingness to work together to eliminate of papers can be ordered from exam boards for easier the practical and technical issues that remain. use with computer readers. Such papers can now, with Amendments 190 and 194 taken together would the appropriate safeguards, simply be ordered online. require apprenticeship providers to use their best In addition, this year, 2013-14, reading pens—scanners endeavours to secure support for SEN. I recognise the which read text aloud to pupils and students via concern of my noble friends Lord Addington, Lady earphones—have been cleared for use in exams for the Sharp and Lady Walmsley that young people with first time. The use of such technology may be appropriate SEN may need additional support during their for only a relatively small number of candidates, but apprenticeship. I should like to make it clear that Ofqual’s figures for the use of access arrangements young people with EHC plans are able to attain their show an almost fourfold increase in the number of plans during their apprenticeship with all the support candidates using computer readers, to 785 candidates that they set out. Where a local authority has agreed in 2013 from 207 in 2012, when the BDA highlighted with a young person who has an EHC plan that an this issue. This is an encouraging start. Ofqual, the apprenticeship is the best option, arrangements to JCQ and the specialist bodies continue to work together support them should be built in at the point at which to try to standardise the formats of exam papers to the place is commissioned. For example, if the ensure that they are compatible with a wide range of local authority commissions a place from a private GC 87 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 88

[EARL ATTLEE] needs of young people concerned. In doing so, it must apprenticeship provider, the terms of that contract consult proprietors of post-16 institutions, which would should include any SEN provision required. If that is include private training and apprenticeship providers. not possible, the local authority should not place them Given these existing duties, the additional measures there. in the amendment are unnecessary. In addition, they risk having a negative impact on apprenticeship providers, Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I apologise for interrupting including small businesses. There are currently 100,000 the Minister and thank him for giving way.This particular employers in more than 160,000 workplaces offering problem does not apply to the training processes as apprenticeships. Most employers use a training provider such; it applies only to the passing of a particular to help deliver the apprenticeships, and the majority of group of tests known as the functional literacy and providers are private organisations. mathematical skills tests. It is a narrow problem, and My noble friend Lord Addington asked me about one that my noble friend Lord Addington has identified the requirement to achieve English and maths qualifications and kept banging away on for a very long time. It to be removed from apprenticeship completion conditions. should not be impossible for help to be provided during those tests. At the moment, those who have 5.30 pm dyslexia are not allowed to have someone act as a Lord Addington: My Lords, I did not ask for that: I reader to them for the tests. That is narrowly the asked for there to be assisted technology. I have conveyed problem. all the information to everyone in this Room by talking into a microphone that is attached to my computer, Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful for the noble which is technology that is now two decades old. This Baroness’s comments. I was asked about support for can be done cheaply and efficiently. There is just no apprenticeships. We amended the Bill following pre- argument about that. Voice-to-text technology is well legislative scrutiny to ensure that young people on an established and used everywhere else. If you use a apprenticeship could receive support through an EHC computer as your primary form of communication, it plan. This puts people in apprenticeships on the same is cheap and available. It is easy to train. I do not know footing as those in further education. how many dozen people do so but everyone you have talked about can use that technology. This is not about removing qualifications but proving that your Baroness Butler-Sloss: I apologise for interrupting communication skills can be established. the Minister yet again, but we are dealing with an extremely limited point. It is not support during the I have just reached the point where I need glasses apprenticeship that we are talking about; it is support because my arms got a little too short. They are of to complete the apprenticeship. That is not there at the technical assistance and may well be more expensive moment; there is a gap and that is where the problem than the software that I am talking about. It is a is. I am not sure that the Minister—with so many of us ridiculous thing to say: the technology merely allows in this Room—has quite understood the particular you to access things in a different way. problem about which we are concerned and which the noble Lord, Lord Addington, has so very well set out. Earl Attlee: My Lords, I understand how passionate my noble friend is about the use of technology. I am not opposing it. I applaud the development of these Earl Attlee: My Lords, when I have finished my technologies. But if we were to introduce an additional speech, the best thing all of us can do is to read duty, it would increase the regulatory burden on many Hansard carefully, but I am not deaf to your Lordships’ hundreds of private businesses, which goes directly concerns. On the other hand, I am not an expert on against the considerable efforts of the Government to them either. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, and reduce red tape for businesses. Finally, good practice the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, suggested that guidance from the 16 Diversity in Apprenticeship apprenticeships are not covered by the Joint Council pilots is now available on the National Apprenticeship for Qualifications’ guidance. As a point of clarity, the Service website. The Government commissioned an JCQ includes functional skills in its guidance. I or my independent report on creating an inclusive apprenticeship noble friend Lady Northover would be happy to meet offer, and their response, the apprenticeships action noble Lords to follow up on this. plan for learners with learning difficulties and/or In addition, the Equality Act 2010 applies to all disabilities, is currently being implemented. Action apprenticeship training providers and employers. They includes: use of the Equality Act definition of “disabled” are required to make reasonable adjustments for disabled for the apprenticeship offer, employers being able to young people during their apprenticeships. We will signal willingness to recruit more disabled apprentices promote the availability of reasonable adjustments in on apprenticeship vacancies online using the “two apprenticeships more widely, including through the ticks” scheme, which guarantees disabled applicants National Apprenticeship Service. We are also currently an interview if they meet the basic requirements for considering how we can improve data collection to the role; and work to improve the reporting of data. monitor how effectively we are supporting young people The National Apprenticeship Service is offering with SEN and disabilities in apprenticeships. additional one-to-one support for young people who More widely, Clause 27 states that a local authority have been unable to secure an apprenticeship due to is under a general duty to keep the special education competition for a place. DWP is working with the provision in its area under review and consider the Joint Apprenticeship Unit to promote additional support, extent to which that provision is sufficient to meet the such as access to work payments. GC 89 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 90

Ministers are not deaf. We have listened to what that, as was said in relation to Amendment 192, it is noble Lords have said in Committee. We will look very not the form of words that matters, it is the outcome. carefully and consider what steps we need to take to As regards this amendment, I think what the Committee meet the concerns of noble Lords. Primarily, we will is saying to the Minister is that it is not the meeting have further meetings outside the Committee to look that matters, it is the outcome. at this further but I suggest that government officials and noble Lords carefully read Hansard to see where Lord Addington: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, we are. I hope that noble Lords will not press their and say to him that the grouping of these two very amendments at the appropriate points. important amendments did him no favours. I would have commented further on that matter if I had felt Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I have a quick word there was time to do so. I think that we have gone as to say before my noble friend withdraws the amendment. far as we can today but we must have an end game The Minister has obviously been given a very long soon. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. brief by officials but I can probably say that the Committee is not bamboozled by it. I do not think Amendment 190 withdrawn. that that was the intention and I have been reassured by hearing about how much support can be given to Amendments 191 to 194 not moved. young people with dyslexia as they go through their apprenticeships. But the point that my noble friend is Clause 62 agreed. making is that all this is to no avail if they cannot get that piece of paper at the end of the course. The fact is that without some technical help with their written Clause 63: SEN co-ordinators English to enable them to express what they have learnt, those young people cannot get that piece of paper, and that means they cannot move on. It really is Amendment 195 as narrow as that. All that good stuff that the Minister Moved by Lord Addington has been talking about is welcome but does not cover getting the piece of paper—in other words, passing the 195: Clause 63, page 45, line 15, at end insert— functional skills test. That is the problem. There have “( ) The appropriate authority must designate a member of staff who shall be a qualified teacher and must have undertaken been lots of meetings but no progress has been made. I training to include a mandatory module on special educational appeal to my noble friend to have further meetings needs, including specific learning difficulties at the school (to be with those of us who are concerned about this, if that known as the “SEN co-ordinator”) as having responsibility for is what is needed, but something has to be done. This co-ordinating the provision for pupils with special educational issue is much narrower than what is in the vast majority needs.” of my noble friend’s briefing. Lord Addington: My Lords, I shall endeavour to be Lord Addington: My Lords, to give the noble Earl, quicker on this issue, which concerns the training of Lord Attlee, a rugby analogy—good players catch bad those who deal with pupils with disabilities, or hidden balls and take the tackle. The noble Earl has been disabilities, such as dyslexia. I apologise to the Committee tackled, stood on and everything else—it has all for having rather overdone the “misspelling mafia” happened—but I congratulate him on being man enough scenario in the past few minutes. Unless a teacher is to stand up to it in the first place. The subtext that I trained to deal with pupils with very different learning take from the response is, “Oh, it can happen but it patterns, he or she will not be able to teach them well. does not”. I am afraid that that is not good enough; it That is the underlying philosophy running through is more of the same with regard to what I have already these two amendments. spoken about. Technical assistance is provided in the A great deal of work has been done. Indeed, under Access to Work programme; it is not just a question of the previous Government, a lot of the foundation DSAs. The thinking appears to be that we help dyslexics stones for this approach were put down, and we had by providing them with a government grant from Rose and Lamb looking at this issue. If teachers do another department to enable them to go to work but not know how to spot why somebody is failing to we do not let them take a qualification. We provide learn, or is learning in a different and slower way, they that metal box with those little gadgets on the side of cannot give the appropriate assistance. Why is dyslexia it to allow someone to function after they have obtained mentioned here? It is the most frequently occurring a qualification, but not before. The point about English condition. It may not be the biggest educational problem, and maths just does not stand up for anybody who but—the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is not in the requires minor assistance, and never did. I will, of Room—with certain aspects of speech and language, I course, withdraw the amendment but I do not want to will bet that there is a high degree of comorbidity. come back in two or three years’ time, or wait for If we are dealing with something this important, another Bill, to correct the position. I do not think then we have got to make sure that a degree of training that anybody’s interest, including that of the Minister, is instilled in those people who have got to deal with it would be served by going through this again. on a day-to-day basis. The people who will start to notice that somebody is working differently will also Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, just before the be able to go to that person and say, “This is why you noble Lord withdraws the amendment and sits down, are not learning quickly”. One of the most standard I would say to the Minister, on behalf of the Committee, conversations in dyslexia is this: a parent comes in and GC 91 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 92

[LORD ADDINGTON] 5.45 pm says, “My child needs help” and it is then discovered Lord Storey: My very first Oral Question was on that the parent is also dyslexic but has manfully struggled dyslexia. I have raised the issue on a number of occasions through without assistance. We have got to try to get and the Government’s response has always been positive the identification going properly. One, help the child; in the sense that they say they have made more money two, enable them to open up and access assistance so available to universities for courses that they run. It that the coping strategies that we have just discussed seems very simple and yet very important, first, to can be put in place. ensure that all teachers—not just some—have an When it comes to making sure SENCOs get better understanding of special educational needs and how training, it is a no-brainer. If the administrative structure to identify problems. To have early intervention, you of a SENCO is fine and everybody teaching is fine, have to be able to identify the problem, otherwise it they should also know what they are talking about. does not work. Where a classroom teacher sees an Dyslexia is the most common but there are other issue, they need to be able to understand it and then conditions out there. I am merely saying that this is refer it to the SENCO. The best way of doing that is where we are coming from but that we are not the through training our teachers. It is almost a no-brainer: whole story. Please will the Government give me an it is very simple and easy to do and lots of universities idea about what they are going to do to make sure that and training institutions currently do it. If some do it, there is better training and awareness among teaching why can all not do it? staff so that those with these needs can get into the school population and open themselves up to receive The second issue, as has been pointed out, is something the help that is there? We end up doing it slowly, later that we have already put in the code of conduct, where on and then encountering problems, as we indicated it is very clearly spelled out. We must congratulate the just a few minutes ago. I hope that my noble friend has Government on taking the next step and saying that something positive to say on this. This is very much a not only should SENCOs be qualified teachers but probing amendment, so how are the Government that, furthermore, newly appointed SENCOs should thinking about getting better awareness and training have the relevant qualification. That is very important—it about this particular problem, and special educational was not mandatory before and now it is. They are the needs generally, into the teaching profession and people who can then deal with all the other issues we particularly, those in charge of it? I beg to move. have talked about. I would take it a step further and say that existing SENCOs, who are not newly appointed to the SENCO role but may have been in post for Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I support my noble several years, should also have to obtain this qualification. friend in these two amendments. Amendment 195 They might be doing it for the next 20 years, so should seeks to put what sort of qualifications a SENCO also have that qualification. We should perhaps give should have in the Bill, because currently it just them a period of several years’ latitude to take the says: qualification, but we want to see a situation where “The appropriate authority must designate a member of staff teachers, through their training, know the issues and at the school (to be known as the “SEN co-ordinator”)”. where there is a qualified person in every school to Clause 63(3) says that regulations may, deal with these issues. That way, the excellent work “require appropriate authorities ... to ensure that SEN co-ordinators that is suggested in the code of practice will actually have prescribed qualifications or prescribed experience”. happen, because there are people who know what they Looking at the draft SENCO code of practice, I was are talking about and know what to do. reassured to see that it says on page 78 that governing bodies, “must ensure that there is a qualified teacher designated as Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I Special Educational Needs (SEN) co-ordinator (SENCO) for the will comment briefly on the amendments and support school. The SENCO must be a qualified teacher working at the the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and other noble school”. Lords who have spoken this afternoon. As ever, the Newly qualified SENCOs, noble Lord, Lord Addington, made a very powerful “must achieve the National Award in Special Educational Needs case for quality teaching to identify children with Coordination within 3 years of appointment”. dyslexia and all other specific learning difficulties. That is very reassuring, but what I do not understand It is important that we broaden it and do not is why that cannot go in the Bill. That is what my noble just concentrate on the—very important—needs of friend is looking for in Amendment 195. children with dyslexia. Amendment 196 goes further and suggests that all In earlier debates on the Bill, and again this afternoon, teachers in their initial teacher training should have we have stressed the importance of earlier intervention. some proper training in how to identify special educational The noble Lord, Lord Storey, has just done that again. needs. The fact is that all teachers know that they are It is important that we identify children at the earliest teachers of SEN because in every class there are opportunity so that we can give them the support they children with special needs. It is crucial that every need to maximise the opportunities that their education teacher has some idea of how to spot that and make can give them. These amendments clearly build on sure that the appropriate, additional and more specialist that theme. However, for early intervention to take skills and provision are made for them if the teacher place consistently, all teachers should be trained in the cannot give it themselves. There is something in these technique of spotting where it might be necessary. two amendments which requires a little more reassurance They need to be aware of the range of support and explanation from the Minister. mechanisms that are effective and can make a difference. GC 93 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 94

This cannot be left to chance or to some teachers 6.04 pm developing a personal interest in SEN, which is, all too Lord Nash: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble often, what happens at the moment. friends Lord Addington, Lady Walmsley and Lord For each teacher who is unaware, or fails to act, Storey for highlighting the importance of high-quality another child’s life chances are blighted. We very much teaching for pupils with SEN. I hope to set out in my agree with the mandatory module in teacher training. response to this debate how the Government are taking Leaving it to individual schools to provide the knowledge this seriously. and skills for teaching staff will leave it too late, and I will first speak to Amendment 195, which would we believe it will result in piecemeal provision if we require the SENCO to be a qualified teacher and to proceed on that basis. Sorting this provision out is complete mandatory training on SEN. I entirely agree crucial to the success of all other aspects of the Bill with my noble friends that this should be the case. when it comes to SEN. If we do not get teacher The draft Education (Special Educational Needs training right, all the other aspects of support that we Co-ordinators) (England) Regulations for Clause 63 are talking about here will fall at the very first hurdle. were published on 4 October. They require the SENCO We also agree with the proposal that the SEN to be a qualified teacher or, indeed, the head teacher co-ordinator should be a qualified teacher who has of the school. In addition, schools must ensure that been trained in SEN and specific learning difficulties, SENCOs who are new to that role obtain the master’s-level and we were pleased that the Minister has now National Award for SEN Co-ordination within three acknowledged that the co-ordinator should be a qualified years of being appointed. That is mandatory, as my teacher. These high-level skills are crucial to ensure noble friend Lord Storey said. Since 2009, we have that the school properly focuses attention on the needs funded 10,500 new SENCOs to complete this award. of specific groups of pupils, as specified in the new These requirements mean that SENCOs are often Ofsted framework. It is an interesting development among the most highly qualified and experienced teachers that, with the Government’s new-found faith in unqualified within a school, which is absolutely fitting for the teachers, special educational needs co-ordinators will importance of the role that they fulfil. be the only posts in a school required to be qualified teachers, but I slightly digress. The current specification for the national SENCO award requires SENCOs to cover approaches to This leads to another issue, which is that if the assessment and teaching for pupils with special educational Minister agrees with the amendments with regard to needs. They must demonstrate that they understand teacher training modules and the status of school the four areas of need as set out in the code of practice SENCOs, we are faced with a considerable knowledge as well as implications of these for teaching practice. deficit among existing teachers, both qualified and They should specifically demonstrate that they know unqualified. What further steps do the Government and understand about high-frequency special educational intend to take to ensure that training for existing needs, such as dyslexia, and know how to draw on teachers and, indeed, existing SENCOs can meet our expert external services to meet these needs. expectation of early intervention and action? How can we be confident that their knowledge of the latest Amendment 196, tabled by my noble friends Lord physical and technical equipment is kept up to date if Addington and Lady Walmsley, would impose mandatory we are focusing just on newly qualified teachers and training in SEN and specific learning difficulties for new training for SEN teachers? I am echoing the all new teachers. There are no mandatory modules points made by other noble Lords, and I hope that the and no required curriculum for initial teacher training. Minister will be able to address the issues. Instead, ITT providers must ensure that their courses enable trainee teachers to meet the Teachers’ Standards. No trainee should be recommended for qualified teacher Baroness Butler-Sloss: When my dyslexic granddaughter status unless they have met the standards. The Teachers’ was identified as such in her excellent primary school, Standards already state that teachers must, it sent someone out to learn about it because there was “have a clear understanding of the needs of all pupils, including no one in the school who had any idea of how to deal those with special educational needs”. with dyslexia. It was an excellent primary school in Teachers must also be able to adapt teaching to the north London, Eleanor Palmer Primary School, for needs of all pupils and have an understanding of the which I have the highest respect. I wonder how many factors that can inhibit learning and of how to overcome schools, if they had a dyslexic child, would take the them. Anybody who works in a school today knows trouble to send somebody out to learn. If a school as that the identification of SEN is at the core of a good as that did not have anyone who understood it, school’s life. Ofsted inspects both the quality of initial what is going on? It seems to me that these amendments teacher training and the quality of teaching in our are extremely important. schools. These standards, and the ability to adapt teaching to meet special educational needs, are central The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness to these inspections. Pitkeathley) (Lab): My Lords, there is a Division in As the noble Lord knows, we are focusing more the Chamber. The Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes teacher training on training in schools. Ofsted reports and resume at 6.02 pm. that 31% of SCIIT training was rated good or outstanding, compared with 13% for higher education institutions. 5.52 pm NQTs trained through School Direct rate the quality of their SEN training more highly than other trainees. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. New teachers report that the quality of training in GC 95 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 96

[LORD NASH] compulsory unit that was agreed among the universities SEN has improved. In fact, it is the best ever reported. that carry out teacher training. I had a conversation A DfE survey of 12,000 newly qualified teachers in with Dyslexia Scotland, which was of the opinion that 2012 found that just 7% of them rated their training in Edinburgh had the best provision at that time—but all SEN as poor, and that 59% of primary and 66% of such universities have a unit. It does not hurt anyone secondary teachers rated their training as good or very and I ask my noble friend to have another look at this. good in helping them to teach pupils with SEN. That Will he consider what can be provided to make sure compares to as few as 45% in 2008. The 2013 survey of that the average teacher has every incentive and NQTs on the same subject will be published on Friday. opportunity to at least get a basic awareness component For reasons I cannot entirely fathom, I am not allowed into their knowledge base? I am assured that units to reveal the results today, but I will tell noble Lords— have been prepared by numerous people and other probably breaching some rule—that they are going to bodies in relation to conditions such as autism. There show a considerably improved picture. should be an awareness programme that means that Taking the slight digression, as she called it, of the classic mistakes are not made; in dyslexia, the one I noble Baroness, Lady Jones, about unqualified teachers’ know best is, “Just work harder”. That will not work. SEN training and her general point about unqualified Even if you do synthetic phonics, you will still learn at teachers, I shall make two points. Although I entirely a slower rate. It is a little like making a small man acknowledge that the previous Government invested carry large sacks of coal; regardless of how well he heavily in teacher training, they did not go as far as does and how he builds himself up he will never match making SEN training mandatory for all teachers, so the bigger guy and will always be at a huge disadvantage. there is a slight inconsistency in her position. That is He will be more tired, slower and learn less well. as nothing compared with the inconsistency in the The standard response to, “Let’s not forget the rest shadow Secretary of State for Education’s position the of the class” is either to disappear into the middle of it other night, when nine times he declined to answer a or to disrupt at the back, so they are not exposed to question from Jeremy Paxman about whether he would something unpleasant. If you can get to that pupil and send his children to a school with unqualified teachers, give them some support and help, they are less likely but let us not digress any further. to make life difficult in the classroom and for those Following similar concerns put forward in another around them. On average, three people in every class place, we have also strengthened the expectations on being taught will be on the dyslexia spectrum. You schools as set out in the SEN code of practice. The could probably stick a couple of other hidden disabilities new code makes it absolutely clear that schools should in there as well. So an awareness package is something ensure that teachers are equipped to meet pupils’ that we should look at. My noble friend does not look special educational needs. The code requires that teachers’ like he wants to respond now but we need to look at ability to meet SEN is included in the school’s approach this later on. to professional development and in their performance I shall have to look my noble friend’s response on management arrangements. Section 6.5 of the code Amendment 195, and have a word with advisers to requires schools to review, make sure that it covers most of our points, but it “teachers’ understanding of strategies to identify and support seemed to be a better response. I hope that we can vulnerable pupils and their knowledge of the special educational have another look at this issue and at least clarify needs most frequently encountered”. where we think the weaknesses are. I beg leave to I know that my noble friend Lord Addington has a withdraw the amendment. long-standing interest in dyslexia and will be particularly keen to ensure that teachers are equipped to tackle this Amendment 195 withdrawn. issue in schools. The Department for Education is funding a range Clause 63 agreed. of specialist organisations covering autism, communications needs and dyslexia to provide information Amendment 196 not moved. and advice to schools on implementing our reforms. The Dyslexia-SpLD Trust, for example, is providing 6.15 pm an online professional development tool for teachers to help assess their current knowledge of dyslexia and access further training. The trust will also be providing Clause 64: Informing parents and young people a toolkit to help teachers identify and respond to literacy difficulties and dyslexia. Amendment 197 not moved. I hope that I have made clear that the Government recognise absolutely the importance of high-quality Amendment 198 teaching for pupils with SEN and that we are determined to ensure that they get an extremely good deal. I Moved by Baroness Greengross therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. 198: Clause 64, page 45, line 30, after “unit” insert “or institutions within the further education sector” Lord Addington: My Lords, I listened to my noble friend and he seemed to be saying that more or less Baroness Greengross: My Lords, I shall speak to everything other than making my proposal compulsory Amendments 198 to 205, that is, all the amendments for teacher training is fine. That might be understandable in this group. One of the reasons I am particularly but provision has been made in Scotland, which has a interested in this issue is because I have been heavily GC 97 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 98 involved in the Care Bill from the pre-legislative scrutiny Lords that this does not undermine the 0 to 25 coverage stage to the present. One of our concerns throughout of the new system, which has been warmly welcomed that consideration was for children and young people by many during the debate on this part. who are just emerging from childhood, so to speak, The Bill creates a reformed SEN system spanning and get caught in the not quite adult/not quite child the age range from 0 to 25 and extends important new time of life when the system sometimes fails them. rights to young people. Within that context, we must Therefore, it is important to ensure that we get things acknowledge that settings are not all the same. Schools right, in particular in relation to special educational and FE colleges differ in the experience that they offer needs and education, health and care plans. their students, in their size, the breadth of their provision These amendments would ensure that other and in the age range they cater for. organisations that might need to be involved in this I turn first to Amendments 198, 199, 200 and 201 area would be responsible for delivering the services which would place a new duty on FE institutions to described in the plans and for making sure that they tell young people if they are receiving special educational actually do what they say. For many, schools will be provision. It might be helpful to clarify for the Committee the main day-to-day contact point but colleges will that the duty on schools in Clause 64 was originally often be involved as well. At present, a number of put in place to ensure that parents were made aware provisions apply to schools but not to colleges, all when their child was in receipt of special educational types of alternative provision and pupil referral units. provision. As noble Lords will know, this Bill gives My amendment would place the same duty on FE new rights to young people once they are over compulsory colleges as on all types of maintained school settings. school age—generally speaking those who are 16 and Clause 64 places a duty on schools to inform the over—rather than their parents. Any new duty on parents of a child without an EHC plan and/or the colleges would therefore require them to inform the young person without an EHC plan when special young person that they are in receipt of special educational education provision is being made for them. Without provision and not their parents. these amendments, young people up to the age of 18 who do not have EHC plans who attend school and/or Young people in further education typically follow their parents will be entitled to be informed, but young more tailored, individual study programmes than they people of the same age who are students at FE colleges had at school. Colleges will discuss with young people will not. We have to remember that from September directly possible study programmes and the support 2013 young people will be able to attend FE colleges they will need to complete those programmes. Discussion from the age of 14, so this issue applies to a number of about that support may or may not include an explicit young people. reference to SEN. I understand that the Government are somewhat The noble Baroness talked about young people not reluctant to place any additional duties on FE colleges, quite being children and not quite being adults. For but my concern is primarily with the children and some young people, taking up a place at college is an young people concerned rather than with the colleges, opportunity for a fresh start, particularly if they felt a I am afraid. If they are to be at the heart of the new failure at school. The label “SEN” might be unhelpful system, the information provided should not vary in in some circumstances, and the college will want to be this way according to the type of institution that they sensitive about handling this. The Association of Colleges happen to attend. has expressed concern about this amendment, saying Clause 65 places a duty on schools to prepare a that it, report containing special educational needs information. “risks treating young people, many of whom are sensitive about This information concerns the implementation of the their educational achievement, the same as children”. governing body’s or proprietor’s policy for pupils at It goes on to say that, the school with special educational needs, the “colleges go to great lengths to handle such issues sensitively by arrangements for the admission of disabled pupils to providing an initial assessment for all students to provide education the school, the steps taken to prevent less favourable that fits people’s individual needs”. treatment of disabled pupils, the facilities provided to assist access to the school by disabled pupils and the The AoC is also concerned about the sheer numbers accessibility plan which schools must publish under involved. For example, one college in Essex reported the Equality Act 2010. In a similar way to Clause 64, to the AoC that it considers that 1,800 of its students the amendments, which are very straightforward, would are receiving special educational provision. That is a simply place the same duty on FE colleges or similar very significant additional burden on colleges. institutions as on maintained schools. I beg to move. The noble Baroness suggested that Clause 64 creates an anomaly. Young people in FE colleges do not need to be told that they are receiving SEN provision, but Earl Attlee: My Lords, I shall respond to the noble young people in sixth form must be told. She suggested Baroness, Lady Greengross, who moved the amendment that that was unfair. I understand the noble Baroness’s on further education institutions. I thank her for explaining point in that regard. The Bill creates a distinction her intention behind them. between young people in school and young people in I fully agree with the noble Baroness on the importance college. There are two reasons why that is so. First, in of special educational provision in colleges, and I am the further education environment, a young person is pleased to have this opportunity to explain why we more likely to find the label “SEN” unhelpful, and have not extended the duties in Clauses 64 and 65 to colleges are used to using their professional judgment the further education sector and to reassure noble about labelling support. GC 99 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 100

[EARL ATTLEE] Clause 65: SEN information report Secondly, we have sought not to place duties unnecessarily on the further education sector. School Amendments 202 to 205A not moved. sixth forms are already under a duty to inform parents where a child is receiving special educational provision. Clause 65 agreed. Clause 64 changes this duty so that they must inform the young person directly. Clause 66: Provision and publication of special needs I now turn to Amendments 202 to 205, relating to information the requirement for FE institutions to publish an SEN information report setting out information about their Amendments 205AA and 205AB not moved. policies for children with SEN and disabilities. Clause 65 replaces Sections 317(5) and 317(6) of the Education Clause 66 agreed. Act 1996 and is a well established duty on schools, but there are no existing similar legal duties on colleges, Clause 67: Code of Practice and we do not believe it is necessary to legislate for a new duty in this area. As the Association of Colleges Amendments 205B and 205C not moved. points out, this information is readily available, as colleges already produce it for their websites and 6.30 pm prospectuses. It is also the case that colleges will have to produce this information as part of their local offer. Amendment 206 Colleges are under a duty in this Bill to co-operate Moved by Lord Low of Dalston with local authorities to produce a local offer. This includes details of their approach to teaching young 206: Clause 67, page 48, line 4, at end insert “in a plain English people with SEN, how they adapt their curriculum style and make it available on the internet” and learning environment, how facilities can be accessed and what support is available to young people with Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I rise to move SEN. More detail is set out in Schedule 1 to the draft Amendment 206 and shall speak also to Amendments local offer regulations. 207 to 209. I will do these two things separately as Amendment 206 deals with one issue and Amendments I hope I have provided the assurance that the noble 207 to 209 deal together with a somewhat separate but Baroness seeks that we have good reasons not to place interrelated set of issues. I hope that I will be able to those additional duties on further education colleges. I do both fairly briefly. hope she will feel able to withdraw her amendment. Turning first to Amendment 206, it would require that a plain English version of the code of practice Baroness Greengross: My Lords, I thank the noble should be made available. Much of the detail of the Earl for his very considered reply, but I am not really reforms contained in this Bill will be enshrined in the happy with it because, as I mentioned, some of these code of practice. Indeed, the code of practice will be young people will be 14. Parents with children with the Bible, both for providers and users of the system. I special educational needs are not usually immune recall an experience I had when I was one of the from wanting to continue to know what is going on founder members of the Special Educational Needs and to be reassured that their children—or young Tribunal back in 1994. We attended a training session people—are having the tailored type of education and and somebody came along to brief us on the old code healthcare that they need. Therefore, I will have to of practice. She said, “Well, I expect that you would take this back, look at it again with the local authorities like me to tell you what are the most important parts that are also worried about this, and come back on of this code of practice that you need to be most Report. familiar with. What I am here to tell you is that you need to be fully familiar with it all”, so it is obviously a Earl Attlee: I have a little bit more to add. Young crucial document. The new code of practice will be the people aged 14 to 15 who go to college may be doing same as the old one in that respect. It was—and the so for a different reason, but I would be happy to think new one will be—a crucial document, and I am sure about what more we could say in the code of practice that we are all most grateful to the Government for about the particular consideration that further education making the latest draft available in time for the Committee. colleges should give to students in this age bracket, That shows just what a crucial document it is. including the importance of keeping the family informed. It is also a very lengthy document—more than 170 pages—and although it will no doubt be subject to Baroness Greengross: That is very helpful, and I change over time, it will remain quite a complex thank the noble Earl. I will still take this back and document, so it is incumbent on us to ensure that the consider in detail all the points that he raised. In the document is made as accessible as possible to young mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. people and their families. A version of the code that provided clarity about a person’s rights and choices, made readily accessible in plain English, would be Amendment 198 withdrawn. extremely valuable. As the Plain English Campaign has stated: Amendments 199 to 201 not moved. “The law is the most important example of how words affect people’s lives. If we cannot understand our rights, we have no Clause 64 agreed. rights”. GC 101 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 102

There are precedents for the use of plain English we remain of the view that the case has not been made for versions, for example, in relation to the Localism Act, applying the draft negative procedure, and for this reason we so I hope that the Minister will agree to this amendment consider the draft affirmative procedure should also apply where to ensure that families do not have to grapple with an the code is being revised”. impenetrable document and get the information that That is what Amendment 209 would achieve. they need made easily accessible to them I will just briefly mention Amendments 207 and Turning to Amendments 206 to 209, at first sight, 208, because they also deal with some aspects of the the Government, with their Amendments 210 and 211, Bill that are not being redrafted by government have gone a long way to meeting what these amendments Amendments 210 and 211. Clause 68(2), in particular, were asking for. Indeed, I readily acknowledge that the says that, in putting forward the code or any revisions: Government’s amendments are very helpful, but they “The Secretary of State must consult such persons as the do not take us all the way. In two respects they do not Secretary of State thinks fit”. take us all the way. Amendment 207 specifies a 90-day We think that it should not be the decision of the consultation period, which I think is perhaps more in Secretary of State as to who he or she consults about accord with usual practice. The Government’sAmendments the code but that there should be a public consultation 210 and 211 seem, at first sight, to concede all that the lasting 90 days, which is what Amendment 207 in amendments are asking for in terms of the code needing particular would also achieve. to be approved by the affirmative procedure in both Houses of Parliament. The wording of these amendments Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, my name is is a bit opaque but, when you unravel it, it becomes attached to Amendments 206, 207 and 208 and I will clear that the affirmative procedure is being conceded just say a few words about both sets of amendments. in relation to the first iteration of the new code, but not In relation to Amendment 206, the current draft code in relation to subsequent iterations which are simply of practice is actually written in fairly good, plain subject to the negative procedure. The Delegated Powers English, as far as I am concerned, and is relatively and Regulatory Reform Committee pointed this out in understandable. I commend those who put it together its report last week, I think, and said that if the because it is a very good document and meets many of Government are conceding the affirmative procedure the comments that I know were made at an earlier in relation to the first iteration of the code of practice, stage. It is still subject to consultation and obviously they are effectively conceding that any subsequent there is still room for improvement. iteration of the code needs the affirmative procedure. I therefore think we will want to continue to push In relation to Amendments 207 and 208, I will just Amendments 207 to 209. While expressing gratitude endorse the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes. to the Government for the distance that they have Rather than there just being consultation with those moved with their Amendments 210 and 211, I express whom the Secretary of State thinks appropriate, the a little disappointment that they have not moved all code should be publicly available for consultation. the way and, indeed, made the further concession that That is something on which we would all put a lot of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee emphasis. has suggested is essentially implied by their concession of the affirmative procedure for the first iteration of Lord Nash: My Lords, I shall speak to this group of the code of practice. I beg to move. amendments on the SEN code of practice for 0 to 25 year-olds. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones, and Baroness Hughes of Stretford: My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Sharp for tabling these amendments Amendments 207, 208 and 209, to which I have added and raising this important matter. I am also grateful to my name. I think we are all very clear that the code of all noble Lords who have spoken. I have listened practice is a very important document, as the noble carefully, and it is important that we ensure that there Lord, Lord Low, has just said. It will determine the is a good understanding of and confidence in the code detail of implementation of the Government’s legislation of practice. It is vital to the success of the new system. in a very marked respect. Therefore, the mechanism by I hope I can reassure noble Lords in my response. which the code is approved, and then subsequently revised, is also very important. Turning first to Amendment 206 tabled by the We have been round the houses somewhat with the noble Lord, Lord Low, we are in complete agreement mechanism of approval. There was a great deal of with the intention behind it. I think all noble Lords pressure from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory would agree that if the new code of practice is going to Reform Committee in response to the Government’s be a useful document and one which parents, young initial proposals that the code of practice, even in its people and professionals can work with it needs to first iteration, should be subject to the negative resolution communicate its meaning clearly and be readily available. procedure. As the noble Lord, Lord Low, has just said, While any document which has to describe the law the Government have conceded that the first iteration accurately may contain some text which has to be read should be subject to the affirmative procedure. That is twice, the department has striven to make the draft very welcome. However, as he also said, the most code as easy to read as possible. recent report from the DPRR Committee said that We trust that we have abided by the principles of although that is welcome, plain English as much as possible, and I am grateful to “there is nothing in the Government’s response to suggest that my noble friend Lady Sharp for her comments, which revisions to the code will necessarily be of any less significance or I will pass on to all officials who have been involved in importance so as to warrant a lower level of scrutiny. Accordingly, its drafting. However the draft code is currently out to GC 103 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 104

[LORD NASH] we do not think that this would be in the best interests consultation, and we are keen to receive suggestions of those who use the code, and why we think it vital for making any parts of the text easier to understand that we keep the ultimate users of the code in mind and will look carefully at any text which readers say during this debate. they find difficult. Noble Lords may be aware that the current code of practice is accompanied by a Plain 6.45 pm English Campaign Crystal Mark publication Special First, we want the new code to be kept up to date, in Educational Needs (SEN)- A Guide for Parents and contrast to the current code which has not been changed Carers. We intend to publish a similar document for since it was published in 2001. In our view, this is parents and young people along with the new SEN critical to its usefulness to those interacting with the code of practice. SEN system. One of the main reasons why the current Turning to the second element of this amendment code is so out of date is because the affirmative regarding the availability of the code on the internet, procedure process applies to any revisions of the code. publication on the internet is now the department’s This requires time to be found for debates in both main method of publication, and I can reassure noble Houses, no matter how small the change. Lords that the new code will be available on the internet. We will also make sure that the code, like the To take a particular example, the Learning and consultation draft, is published in a web-accessible Skills Council closed on 31 March 2010 and was format, so that, for example, readers with visual replaced by the Skills Funding Agency and the Young impairments will have access to it. People’s Learning Agency. However, three years later, the code still refers to the Learning and Skills Council, I now turn to Amendments 207, 208 and 209 which which could be extremely confusing to anyone looking relate to Clause 68, which is headed, to use this part of the code. To have changed the “Making and Approval of Code”. references to the Learning and Skills Council in the The SEN code of practice is fundamental to the SEN current code of practice to keep it up to date would framework and the noble Lord, Lord Low, is right to have required the Secretary of State to lay a revised raise the issue of its approval, an issue which I know is draft of the code before both Houses of Parliament of great importance to SEN organisations and many and for parliamentary time to be found to enable both noble Lords. As noble Lords will be aware, ahead of Houses to debate the changed references. the introduction of this Bill into the other place, the Education Select Committee carried out pre-legislative There are also examples where legislative changes scrutiny on Part 3. One of the recommendations of have taken place and are not reflected in the code: the the committee was that the code should be approved early years foundation stage came into force in 2008; by Parliament through the negative procedure. We the Academies Act 2010 imposed the same SEN were in agreement, fully recognising the importance of obligations on academies as apply to local authority parliamentary scrutiny of the code of practice, and we maintained schools; the Children, Schools and Families accepted the Select Committee’s recommendation. Indeed, Act 2010 gave new rights to parents to appeal to the we are now going further in response to a recommendation tribunal following the annual review of a statement; from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform and the Equality Act 2010 imposed a duty on schools Committee. We have tabled Amendments 210 and 211 to make reasonable adjustments through providing to ensure that on the first occasion the new code is auxiliary aids and services. None of these rights, duties approved, it will be through the affirmative procedure, and obligations is covered in the current code. and for subsequent revisions, it will be through the The Government believe in thorough parliamentary negative procedure, recognising the significance of the scrutiny.However, debates under the affirmative procedure new code in reflecting the new legal framework we would not have been able to change the legislation to have been debating. which the revisions in the code referred. Any concerns noble Lords or Members in the other place had about The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I admit to being a the legislation itself would have been debated and, member of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory hopefully, noble Lords or Members would have been Reform Committee. Will the Minister explain why he reassured as the relevant primary legislation was going has rejected an affirmative instrument in the second through. case? The current code has remained out of date, through different Administrations. There is not just one reason Lord Nash: I am grateful for the noble Countess’s for this, but it is natural for those with the difficult task question. I shall explain. On 24 October, the DPRRC of finding time for parliamentary debates to hold off published a subsequent report in response to the for now as there will probably need to be another Government’s Amendments 210 and 211 which reaffirmed change in six months, and so the code never gets its recommendation that the code should be approved revised. That, with the best will in the world, is exactly by affirmative procedure on the first occasion and what I fear will happen if the new code has to be whenever it is revised. approved through the affirmative process. We are in complete agreement with noble Lords on In addition, in terms of procedure, there are other the importance of the SEN code of practice, particularly codes which are important to parents which do not go to parents, and I understand why the supporters of through these approval arrangements. To take one this amendment want to maintain the current example, the admissions code, which is of great importance arrangements for approval. I would like to set out why to parents seeking a school place for their child, is GC 105 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 106 approved by negative procedure, and there does not appear to be any difficulty with that. Codes in other Amendments 210 and 211 areas, such as those under the Mental Capacity Act and the Equality Act, are also approved by negative Moved by Lord Nash procedure. We are not proposing that revised versions 210: Clause 68, page 48, line 19, leave out subsections (4) and of the code after the first are approved by negative (5) and insert— procedure just because other codes are, but I hope “(4) The Secretary of State may not take any further steps in some comparisons to other similar documents are relation to— helpful and provide some reassurance. (a) a proposed code unless the draft is approved by a I believe that the negative procedure would allow resolution of each House, or for small and uncontroversial changes to be made to (b) a proposed revised code if, within the 40-day period, the code, which are important to keeping it up to date, either House resolves not to approve the draft. while still allowing Members of both Houses to call (5) Subsection (5A) applies if— for a debate if they are concerned about proposed (a) both Houses resolve to approve the draft, as mentioned changes. I hope noble Lords are reassured that this is in subsection (4)(a), or an appropriate balance. (b) neither House resolves not to approve the draft, as mentioned in subsection (4)(b). Noble Lords have spoken about the consultation (5A) The Secretary of State must issue the code or revised arrangements for the code. Clause 68(2) provides for code in the form of the draft, and it comes into force on such date the Secretary of State to carry out sensible and proper as the Secretary of State may by order appoint.” consultation on the code. When smaller changes to the 211: Clause 68, page 48, line 27, leave out “proposed code (or” code are made, the consultation will be focused on those who the changes affect. For example, if a change Amendments 210 and 211 agreed. to early years provision is made, we would consult representatives of early years providers and parent groups with a particular interest in early years provision, Clause 68, as amended, agreed. rather than including further education providers and young people in the consultation about such a change. Amendment 212 I hope noble Lords agree that this is proportionate and are reassured by Clause 68(2). Moved by Lord Addington I hope my responses on these points have reassured 212: After Clause 68, insert the following new Clause— noble Lords of the intention behind our Government’s “Screening for specific learning difficulties amendments and of our understanding of the importance After section 562E(2) of the Education Act 1996 (literacy noble Lords rightly place on the code and its approvals and numeracy assessments) insert— process. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his “(2A) The host authority must make arrangements to ensure amendment. that a detained person undertakes a screening test for dyslexia as soon as reasonably practicable.””

Lord Low of Dalston: I am very grateful to the Lord Addington: My Lords, for me this is a case of Minister for his careful response and the way in which “three times pay for all” when it comes to dyslexia. he dealt with the arguments and to all other noble The reason I have tabled this amendment is because Lords who have spoken in support of my amendments. you find abundant evidence of special educational As I say, I am very grateful to the noble Lord but I am needs among our prison population. The estimates for not entirely persuaded. I think he said that the previous the number of prisoners on the dyslexia spectrum code had been introduced in 2001 and that, because of range from 20% to 50%, the higher figure being the the pressure on parliamentary time, it had not been more frequently occurring. It is generally accepted possible to find any time to update it between then and now that every problem to do with literacy and educational now. I cannot believe that it would not be possible to attainment occurs in abundance throughout our prison find any parliamentary time—not a lot is required—for population. I have singled out dyslexia for screening a debate on the affirmative procedure. I find it hard to because of my interest in it and because it will probably believe that one could not find any time in 12 years, so be the most frequently occurring problem. I was not entirely persuaded there, nor, it seems, was the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Why do we need to conduct screening for dyslexia? However, I will not press the point any further at this A few years ago I became familiar with a project in stage, so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Chelmsford Prison under the leadership of Jackie Hewitt-Main. She discovered that lots of dyslexics would go nowhere near the education department. Amendment 206 withdrawn. One realises in three seconds that they go nowhere near it because it constitutes a bad experience for Clause 67 agreed. them. Most prisoners are no longer in school by the age of 14. If someone has not been attaining in the education system, it is an unpleasant experience and Clause 68: Making and approval of code they often find themselves getting into enough trouble to send them to prison. It is as if they are saying, “Let us go in there and go through a bad experience in the Amendments 207 to 209 not moved. classroom”. Suddenly, it becomes obvious that they GC 107 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 108

[LORD ADDINGTON] achieving nothing or even doing damage is high. These will try to avoid that. The redoubtable individual I are probing amendments and I look forward to hearing mentioned was originally looking at head injuries, of what my noble friend has to say. which she found many. She did a survey of prisoners who would not go into the education block. She found Lord Storey: Any hope of improving the education that once you had established that link to their previous of detained young people must include addressing experience these prisoners became much more open to their special educational needs. It is a frightening training and to assistance in changing their lives. The statistic that 70% of those young people have special incidence of violence on the wing in question dropped educational needs and 20% of them currently have and the prisoners stopped hitting one another quite so statements. much—perhaps they had something to talk about. It The existing statutory duties placed on those councils was subsequently discovered that half the prison warders that have a youth offender institution in their area—a were in the same boat. As an aside, dyslexics tend to host authority—by the Apprenticeship, Skills, Children like regular hours and regular forms et cetera. They do and Learning Act 2009 are to use, not like promotion when they have to change the form, but that is an aside for another day. “best endeavours to secure that appropriate special educational provision is made”, So having a form of assessment on entrance into but of course councils have never had the funding or the system would seem to be sensible idea. Once the commissioning responsibility for securing that again, I have one caveat, which I have given before: education. Those duties are currently fulfilled through you should probably extend this to a list of other contracts made by the Education Funding Agency conditions. For example, I discovered that Asperger’s funded by the Ministry of Justice. is overrepresented as well. If you have problems with communication and you have problems with the law, As the concept of the host authority has never been once again it becomes quite obvious how that could implemented in practice, it would perhaps be helpful happen and you go down the list. But the principle of to see this complicated situation resolved by repealing screening is a good one. Of course, you have to back those clauses in the Apprenticeship, Skills, Children this up with the correct action. I am afraid that bits of and Learning Act 2009 that refer to the host authorities. the Prison Service have a history of screening and The Government have acknowledged that the current saying, “Yes you are”, and then doing nothing about situation is not working, and could use the opportunity it. An awareness programme must back it up. That is to make provision for young offenders with special what is required. educational needs that can work in practice and really address the needs of those young people. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, who I am afraid has had to leave us, asked me to speak to his 7pm Amendment 213. The idea that you should maintain The amendment that I am speaking to places a duty the EHC plans once you are inside the prison system on local authorities either to maintain an education or custody service does not require much thought. If health and care plan for a child or young person who you have an identified process going or a pattern of is detained, or to ensure that specified education provision activity, it should be maintained or at least replaced by is met for that young person in accordance with that something extremely similar to it or better. That is plan. It places a duty on the governing body of a fairly straightforward. custodial facility to provide information about its Then we come to another thing that the noble special educational provision in the local special Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has tabled: removing Clause 70 educational needs offer. It is important that the special from the Bill. I was half thinking about putting my educational needs of young people in custody are name to this amendment, but I was beaten on the draw addressed, and that particular attention is paid to by many other Members of the Committee. Noble provision on their release. It will be helpful if the Lords should not press this if the Minister can tell us Minister clarifies in his reply which model the Government that the Ministry of Justice has a specially constructed wish to adopt for commissioning education for young programme that will address the needs of its client people in custody. base that goes beyond, and is more appropriate than, The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, passed me a that provided outside. That would be a good reason note, as he did to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for not removing the clause because—nobody disputes saying that there was one issue that he particularly this —we have a very high need base. If there is wanted to raise. I will raise it on his behalf now. He something that it is appropriate for adults or young met with two Ministers, my noble friend Lord Nash people disaffected with the education system and is and Edward Timpson earlier last month when they especially suited to them, you should not remove it. indicated that they were proposing to move by ensuring If we do not get that quality assurance, we will not that the host authorities were responsible for informing get people who will be able to talk about administering young offender institutions of anybody on an EHC educational needs identification or coping strategies plan. These institutions were encouraged to carry out for how to access further education, where it is appropriate, assessments to enable the EHC plans to be made. He and there will be problems. If you do not have people thought that these institutions were included in the list with a degree of sensitivity and skill in there, you of educational establishments and were bound by the should remove the clause. If we hear that we are going SEN regulations in the Bill to do this in any case. to do lots of wonderful things with people who are not Obviously, that part of the local offer regarding choice properly trained, not skilled and not accustomed to of establishment does not apply because they have no the environment they are going into, the possibility of choice over custody. GC 109 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 110

The noble Lord was encouraged to withdraw this I know that there are young people—I have run amendment, but he wants it in Hansard because he large institutions—who are detained for their own wants the Minister to address it when he sums up. If it safety, so I am not suggesting that all young people are helps, I will pass on his letter. I have probably made a in this category. However, many—especially those with right mess of it because it is a letter written to me, as these learning needs and dyslexia and often undiagnosed opposed to a speech, so I will hand it to my noble conditions—may well have found themselves in trouble friend Lord Nash and he can perhaps reply to it because of their lack of understanding. If the plan is directly, rather than doing it now. to have any meaning, it should identify the areas of concern wherever the child is; it should have portability, Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I rise to particularly into custodial facilities. I am very pleased speak to Amendment 214. My name is attached to it to support this amendment. and I particularly wanted to speak to it because it is the continuation of an old story of detained young Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, my name is attached people missing out on all the privileges that other to Amendment 212. I will just make a couple of short young people have. In particular, when they have been points. I, too, am familiar with the work of Jackie in care and then find themselves detained, the local Hewitt-Main and have read her very inspiring book. I authority no longer continues to look after them in the am a great admirer of the work that she has done in new institution in which they find themselves. In the prisons. One story that she told really struck me: some past, we tried very hard to ensure that that care young people in custody were not getting the help they continued, but as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, has needed with their dyslexia for the following reason. pointed out, that has not really been carried forward When they went in, they were given a form to fill in to and certainly is not working at present. say what sort of educational provision they wanted. We should remind ourselves that children who are They could not read it—it is a simple thing, is it detained are the most vulnerable in our society, particularly not?—so they did not get any help at all. They did not if they have a range of special needs resulting in an get any courses because they had not ticked any of the EHC plan. We all know the statistics for children who boxes because they could not read what it said next to have been in care, so I will not repeat them, and those them. It has to be said that some prisons are very for the most troubled families and young people with good, but the majority fall by the wayside in a very mental health problems who find themselves in some bad way. kind of detention. Because there is a plan in place, and I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady because of the difficulties faced by these young people, Howarth, that very often the reason why those young they are probably known to their local authority, and people are there in the first place is because they are likely to have a social worker and an existing cannot read. They could not get a job and they could programme to meet their needs. It is therefore absolutely not get a driving licence because they could not read essential that the plan is maintained and for the child the Highway Code. They were at a great disadvantage. or young person with special needs to have the services In the current economic situation, we have to ensure in that plan continued. that money is spent as wisely as possible. I can think of Anyone who has been to any of these institutions, no more effective way of avoiding reoffending and the or talked to any young people from care who have great expense that it puts on the public purse than found themselves dropping out of the care system and spending money on addressing the special educational into the offender system, will know that they lack that needs of young people in custody. There really is a continuity and their education ceases. How much more very good investment to be made there and we ought difficult it is for children with special needs whose to be making more of it. families have often struggled anyway to get them the services that they need so far. It seems perverse, therefore, The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I will just follow that they are deprived of this continuity. Often they up on the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady are detained due to behaviour that has stemmed from Walmsley. This is when online and blended education their learning difficulties: the fact they do not always can come in very useful, because it is not expensive, comprehend what is going on around them; the fact compared with person-to-person education. I hope that they cannot read instructions; or the fact that the Minister will consider it. they are sometimes easily led because they do not have the same intellectual grasp of what is going on as others. Those young people who are seen as the offenders Baroness Hughes of Stretford: My Lords, I will and the difficult young people in our society are not briefly add to the comments in support of Amendments seen as “the deserving”. 213 and 214 and speak to my and my noble friend I contend that the opposite should be true. Having Lady Jones’s intention to oppose Clause 70 standing already been failed by their family, often by their part. education and usually by social care, what these young Young people who have previously had a statement people need most at the time of crisis is stability and are very overrepresented in the youth justice system, continuity. They need a programme to take them making up about 18% of young offenders. About through their detention and re-establish them in their 80% of those in young offender institutions have literacy community. If their programme is continued—and problems or dyslexia to some degree. According to the their education and health plans, as they often have Communication Trust, around 60% have communication complex health needs—then it is clear to me that they needs. There is a very high level of need concentrated would have a much better chance of a new start. in this population of young people. We would all agree GC 111 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 112

[BARONESS HUGHES OF STRETFORD] the amendments in this group and giving the Committee that those are shocking statistics and that clearly, in the opportunity to discuss this important issue. I also one way or another, many of these young people have thank other noble Lords who spoke. been failed up to the point in their lives when they end We have given Clause 70 considerable thought since up in the youth justice system. it was discussed in the other place and following the I have some sympathy with the prison system, because informative debate in this House at Second Reading. I it has, as I say, a very high concentration of need. understand the concerns raised today, which were However, in my experience, it also the case that despite prompted by this clause being included in the Bill. I some very dedicated individuals—and there are some assure noble Lords that there was never any intention in the prison system—the system as a whole has never for this clause to suggest that the Government are not done enough to address the special needs of young concerned with supporting this vulnerable group of people in custody. Under the system that we have at children and young people. I am very clear that I want the moment, the local authorities in general—we have to use this Bill to improve the support we provide to heard that many young people in custody have also children and young people in custody with special been through the care system—and the services available educational needs. This is an issue I have been concerned in the home communities from which these young with ever since, 42 years ago, during my university people have come, and to which most of them inevitably course on criminology and penology, I spent three will return, are also let off the hook while those young weeks in what was then called a borstal. It was probably people are in custody. the most eye-opening three weeks of my entire education. Successive Governments have tried to get this right, Clause 70 is included to play an important technical and have made some progress, but nowhere near enough. function by disapplying duties which would be impractical It seems that the Government are now proposing to deliver while a child or young person is in custody. significant changes, which many of us have welcomed, For example, it would not be possible to allow a young in the Bill in respect of special educational need provision offender to choose where they are educated or to give in the community.Surely, therefore, this is an opportunity them a personal budget. We have been considering to grasp the nettle and make that change for young how we can introduce provisions that will ensure people currently in custody, so that we have some real continuity of education and health support while a consistency across the piece for young people with young offender is detained. special needs. In Amendment 214, my noble friend Lord Storey Finally, the Minister said in the annexe to his letter has set out how Clause 70 could be replaced, and I to noble Lords that applying these provisions to young listened to his thoughtful contribution to the debate people in custody would cause SEN legislation to today. I hope it reassures my noble friend and others come, that legislation exists in Section 562C of the Education “into conflict with existing, comprehensive statutory provisions Act 1996 setting out how education and support for governing how education and support for children and young those with special educational needs is delivered in people is delivered in custody”. custody. That legislation places clear duties on local In slight contradiction to that first point, he added authorities to use their best endeavours to deliver the that, in any case, the Ministry of Justice and the special educational provision that is set out in a statement Department for Education are now working closely of special educational need. The consequential together for changes in the system to improve the amendments in Schedule 3 to the Bill will place the provision in respect of special educational needs. Why same duties on local authorities for young offenders have a different set of changes? Would these changes aged 10 to 17 in custody with education, health and not make more sense? That is not least because, as I care plans. However, we all agree that more needs to be say, they would tie in the local authorities and the done. schools from which young people are coming, and to which they are returning, and not simply leave this as a The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, proposed a Prison Service issue. way forward in his Amendment 213 which seeks to amend existing provisions in the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009. I thank the noble Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I very much Lord for this amendment, which I know draws on his support all that has been said on this amendment considerable experience and expertise in this area. The about detained children. I believe that the Government noble Lord has spoken with knowledge and passion have a number of plans that will be quite valuable as throughout this Committee’s debate on Part 3 of this the forward march to a much better system for young Bill, and I am particularly grateful for his contributions. people is in progress. Above all, if you just have one As I have discussed with the noble Lord, the intention single test the moment that a young person comes into behind this amendment is in many ways similar to the custody, to find out whether that child had any problems, solutions we have been considering. and started from that point, you would not waste the time that has been wasted for so many years. I very Ensuring continuity of support already set out in much support this amendment. EHC plans for those children and young people moving into, through and out of custody is exactly what I want to achieve. I am also considering whether we can 7.15 pm enable children and young people in youth custody to Lord Nash: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, have the right to ask for an assessment for an EHC Lord Ramsbotham, and my noble friends Lord plan where special educational needs are identified for Addington, Lord Storey and Lady Walmsley for tabling the first time. GC 113 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 114

However, as I have discussed with the noble Lord, response to the consultation shortly. We want our this new clause does not achieve all that we might amendments to complement the MoJ’s reforms and want. For example, it is important to ensure that are working with it to achieve this. duties are on relevant health bodies rather than local With those reassurances, I hope that noble Lords authorities. Concerning the point my noble friend will feel able to withdraw or not move their amendments. Lord Storey raised on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, it is essential that we properly consider The Earl of Listowel (CB): My Lords, I apologise what the role of the home local authority should be as for asking a quick question. How does the virtual well as that of the host local authority. As many in this school head that this Bill puts on a statutory basis debate have said, this is a great opportunity to make a keep track of a looked-after child who enters the difference, and it is important that home local authorities secure estate? Many of them will have special educational maintain their involvement with children and young needs. There is no need for a response now but perhaps people who are in custody so they are aware of progress it is a matter that the Minister can think about for us and can make sure that appropriate provision and to discuss at some point. support is available when a young offender returns home on release. This is important if we are to reduce further the risk of reoffending. Lord Addington: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that—shall I say?—reassuring answer. It was not I thank noble Lords for the debate today. We will the radical announcement that I was half hoping for, carefully read the contributions from noble Lords perhaps forlornly. However, it is certainly reassuring between now and Report as we reach a decision on to know that people are thinking about this problem. I how best to amend Clause 70 to achieve the aim of should also say to my noble friend that there is a lot of improving provision for children and young people cross-party consensus on this. I do not think that with SEN in custody which we are all agreed on. I anyone has any idea other than to try and improve this recently met the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, to Bill, so I encourage him to make sure that we are all discuss how we might do this, and I would like to engaged in this. The continuation of political support continue to work with him and others as we develop on this issue can, on this occasion, be added to and amendments to be tabled ahead of Report. built on. All of us want to find a sustainable and I turn to Amendment 212 and the issue of screening improving way to reach this incredibly hard-to-reach those in custody for dyslexia. I agree with my noble group. My noble friend Lady Walmsley talked about friends Lord Addington and Lady Walmsley that we the problems that someone who cannot read has in must support young offenders who have hidden disabilities accessing help. To take that one step further: try such as dyslexia. I should like to assure my noble accessing the benefits system without being able to fill friends that assessments to identify such needs already in a form, and then have the fear of humiliation in take place in the youth secure estate. Education providers admitting that you cannot read. I encourage my noble assess all young offenders’ levels of literacy, language friend to encourage the Ministry of Justice to address and numeracy on entry to custody. They also use a this. It must do so because everyone is a winner if we variety of tests such as the hidden disabilities questionnaire get this right. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. developed by Dyslexia Action to screen all young offenders who show signs of having a learning difficulty Amendment 212 withdrawn. or disability. These assessments are extremely important because they allow providers to identify a range of Clause 69 agreed. learning difficulties, including dyslexia. Once their needs have been assessed, all young offenders in custody Amendment 213 not moved. receive an individual learning plan that follows them through the course of their sentence. Of course, if we are able to ensure continuity of EHC-plan support, Clause 70: Part does not apply to detained children then young offenders with plans will already have had and young people such needs and relevant support identified. Education providers in young offender institutions are also Amendment 214 not moved. contractually required to have a workforce trained to identify and support a young person’s individual learning Clause 70 agreed. needs. Of course, despite the current legal and contractual Clauses 71 and 72 agreed. protections, we can always do more. The Transforming Youth Custody Green Paper sets out how we want to Amendment 215 put education at the centre of youth custody, thereby ensuring young offenders are equipped with the skills, Moved by Baroness Walmsley qualifications and self-discipline they need to stop 215: After Clause 72, insert the following new Clause— offending and lead productive lives on release. The “Inspection and review of local authorities in England consultation included a question on how best to support In section 136 of the Education and Inspections Act 2006 young offenders with special educational needs. The (inspection of local authorities in England), after consultation ended on 30 April this year. Since then, subsection (4) insert— the Ministry of Justice has been reviewing the responses “(5) The Chief Inspector must inspect the performance by an received and carefully considering the next steps to authority in delivering and commissioning specialist support transforming youth custody, and plans to publish the services for children with special educational needs.”” GC 115 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 116

Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, the Government strong for low-incidence SEN, including sensory argue that the local offer will improve transparency. impairments, because many local authorities and schools However, in one area there is virtually no information are unlikely to be as familiar with the specialist support available to parents: that is, information on the quality needed by these children. Surely, the department should of specialist SEN support services. As drafted, the Bill require Ofsted to begin inspecting these services now misses an opportunity to improve outcomes for children rather than delay any further. with SEN by requiring Ofsted to inspect specialist Therefore, I ask the Minister the following questions. SEN support services. We believe that this move would First, will he set out in more detail the terms of improve the overall accountability of the Bill. reference and timescales for Ofsted’s study? Will it also This is another area in which the SEN Green Paper explicitly consider the case for inspection of specialist recognised the vital role that specialist SEN services support services for deaf children? Secondly, although have to play. Parents are therefore often surprised that Ofsted’s inspection framework for schools already has these same SEN educational services are subject to no an SEN focus, does he accept that Ofsted inspectors real formal scrutiny in the same way that schools are. are unlikely to pick up on issues on the quality of The absence of any reliable data on the number of support being received by a school from specialist children with sensory impairments and the outcomes support services for children with sensory impairment they achieve also means that parents have no way of as there is often only one child with that need in the comparing local offers and SEN provision. Let me school? illustrate this with an anecdote. A head of a service for Thirdly, does the Minister accept that because sensory deaf children said to the National Deaf Children’s impairment is a low-incidence need requiring targeted Society: and specialist support, local authorities and schools “I wholeheartedly agree that specialist services should be are more reliant on specialist support services for inspected by Ofsted. All teaching should be inspected to ensure children with sensory impairment? Does it follow that high quality, rigour and recognition of the specialist nature of the there is a case for more detailed scrutiny of these work that specialist teachers do as well as raising the profile of services? deaf education and provision. This would also contribute to narrowing the gap between deaf children and mainstream children Finally, given the scale of underachievement attainment”. experienced by children with sensory impairments, is As we know, Ofsted has already identified that local there a need for more urgent action to drive improvements? authorities are very weak on evaluation of SEN provision. Will any new inspection framework be in place before The 2012 Ofsted report on effective practice in services this Bill comes into force? I beg to move. for deaf children said: “There was limited strategic overview and no systematic approach 7.30 pm across all services to evaluate the quality of services and their Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble impact on improving the lives of deaf children”. friend for moving this amendment on the importance In another place, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of inspection and review of the new system. Before of State for Children and Families stated that he was turning to the specifics of the amendment tabled by exploring with Ofsted how concerns about SEN provision my noble friend Lady Walmsley, it would be helpful to could be covered under Ofsted’s existing programme set out some of the details of the inspection and for inspecting local authority school improvement review system. functions. This statement was made in spring this year Local authorities and clinical commissioning groups and no update has been provided since. I believe that are already held to account for the services that they there needs to be greater certainty on the local offer provide in a number of ways. Ultimately, local authorities and accountability before the Bill progresses further. are accountable to local people through the ballot The amendment would substantially improve the box. Clinical commissioning groups are held accountable Bill by requiring Ofsted to inspect specialist SEN by NHS England, which has powers of intervention support services. On day seven of Grand Committee, where a clinical commissioning group has failed, or is the Minister—my noble friend Lady Northover—stated at risk of failing, to meet its statutory obligations. The that the department has asked Ofsted, local health and well-being board also provides a local “to study and report on how best to identify best practice in focus for accountability to the local population. preparing for SEN reforms … and to consider particularly whether Local authorities must consult on the local offer there is a need for an inspection framework to drive and publish comments received from children and improvements”.—[Official Report, 30/10/13; col. GC 640.] young people with SEN and the parents of children The Minister indicated that it would be next spring with SEN, which is another way of encouraging the before that report would be published. That commitment local population to hold their local authorities to was made in response to Amendment 111, tabled by account for implementing the local offer. It is important the noble Lord, Lord Low, which would have required for noble Lords to note that local authorities and Ofsted and the CQC to inspect local offers. clinical commissioning groups can already be held to Amendment 215 has a complementary but slightly account for their actions through individual complaints. narrower focus on inspection of specialist support The local offer will make the local complaint routes services for children with SEN. The Minister’s more transparent, so that families will be clearer about announcement is to be welcomed. However, it does how to complain if they need to do so. not go far enough. There is already a strong and clear However, I understand the case for inspection, given case for inspection of specialist support services for the importance of these reforms. I turn now to children with SEN. I believe that the case is especially Amendment 215, which, as set out by my noble friend, GC 117 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 118 requires Ofsted to inspect local authorities on their they learn that their child is disabled, parents of deaf commissioning and delivery of specialist SEN services. children face a battle in learning how best to communicate The SEN reforms are new. We therefore need to baseline with that child, particularly if they need to learn sign best practice and use that analysis to identify whether language. a full inspection regime is necessary. On that basis, as Of course, sign language will not be appropriate for my noble friend Lady Northover said in a previous all families and children, but that option must be there debate, we asked Ofsted to undertake a study of how if parents are to be able to play their important role in local authorities are preparing to implement the SEN developing their children’s language and communication reforms, working with the Care Quality Commission skills. I do not need to stress to the Minister how as they need. The work will consider how effectively important and fundamental communication within local authorities and clinical commissioning groups the family is. It is the strongest influence on language will fulfil their responsibilities and how they will monitor development at age two. Money spent here to achieve improved outcomes for children and young people those skills can be an absolutely invaluable investment. who have special educational needs. This study will Indeed, failure to support communication within the help us to identify whether a new inspection framework family is a false economy. It condemns deaf children would add value, and I or my noble friend would be to a life of frustrated potential. We already know that content to discuss this further with noble Lords, if by the time they start school, four out of five deaf that would be useful. I think my noble friend Lady children have failed to achieve a good level of development Northover has already made that offer. On that basis, within the early years foundation stage. I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw her amendment. The National Deaf Children’s Society believes that supporting families with deaf children on communication is more than just common sense and should be regarded Baroness Walmsley: I thank my noble friend for his as a basic human right. We must do more to ensure reply. Obviously, we all look forward with great that families with deaf children can communicate with anticipation to the study that he referred to, and I those children. Sadly, at present, I do not believe that think that for the moment, we will just have to be we are doing enough. In a survey in 2011, the NDCS satisfied with that. We will be looking for particular found that more than half—56%—of local authorities focus on low-incidence needs and how they will be did not provide any support to families who needed to covered. I accept that it is a good idea to get a baseline learn sign language to communicate with their children. of best practice and then see how it rolls forward from The other half were found to be patchy and uneven in there, but Ofsted is the expert in this so I look forward terms of exactly what they provided. to hearing what it has to say about it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Some families have faced an agonising choice of deciding whether the mother or the father would be Amendment 215 withdrawn. able to learn sign language, because local authorities have made funding available for only one person or because there is no childcare funding available. When Amendment 216 this matter was raised elsewhere, the Government, Moved by Baroness Howe of Idlicote) alas, left it to the local authorities, saying that it was a matter to them to decide. Is the Minister confident 216: After Clause 72, insert the following new Clause— that local authorities understand how important “Duty to secure sufficient communication support for parents communication support for families is? Is he as concerned with children with a hearing loss as I am, and as many others are, that more local (1) An authority must secure that the provision of courses for authorities do not already make it available? the purpose of learning how to communicate with a child with a hearing loss, including the provision of sign language courses, I acknowledge that the department has funded a (whether or not by them) is sufficient to meet the requirements of range of projects to improve sign language provision parents of children for the hearing loss in their area. to families, including the I-Sign consortium. That is (2) In determining for the purposes of subsection (1) whether welcome and certainly much appreciated. I also the provision of courses is sufficient to meet those requirements, acknowledge the department’s hope that the Bill will a local authority must have regards to— address some of these difficulties, particularly through (a) the cost of such courses; local offers and personal budgets. However, I would (b) the scheduling of such courses; and welcome the Minister’s views on whether he thinks (c) the relevance of the contact of such courses to parents this is likely to lead to the step change in provision that with children.” deaf children badly need—not in the future but here and now. Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, this amendment Is he confident that sign language courses will be would insert a new clause imposing a duty to secure included in local offers? Is he confident that courses sufficient communication support for parents of children would even be available to families should they wish to with hearing loss. The amendment would create a new use their personal budgets for this purpose? Is he duty on local authorities to ensure that families with confident that local authorities will engage with, and deaf children have access to communication courses listen to, families with deaf children on this matter? on communicating with their children. Some 90% of We must remember that deafness, as we have already deaf children are born to hearing parents, many of heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is a whom have little or no prior experience of deafness. low-incidence disability. Many local authorities are As well as the usual emotions that parents face when unlikely to be familiar with the needs of deaf children, GC 119 Children and Families Bill[LORDS] Children and Families Bill GC 120

[BARONESS HOWE OF IDLICOTE] However, while SEN reform might generate more who will always be one of a range of competing needs. demand for sign language courses, it really will be Therefore, without a clear duty on local authorities, I useless while local authorities can walk away, which is and many others are concerned that sign language very damaging to deaf children and their families. provision for families will continue to be patchy and progress will continue to be piecemeal. Surely, deaf children and their families deserve better and I hope The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I rise briefly to that the Minister will seriously consider this amendment support this amendment so eloquently moved by my and its implications. I beg to move. noble friend and to ask two questions. I support it particularly because of the work done by the right Baroness Wilkins: My Lords, I will speak briefly to honourable Iain Duncan Smith MP and Graham Allen support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, MP,among others, on the importance of early attachment Lady Howe. She has made a strong and clear case for between infants and parents. Clearly, it is crucial that action. This issue has been raised elsewhere several parents can communicate with their young child in times and the fact that it continues to be raised must order to make a strong bond with them. show the Minister the strength of feeling on it. The I particularly want to emphasise the importance of current approach of asking voluntary bodies to support that. We may have already covered this elsewhere in improvements in individual local areas is just too the Bill, but the two questions are: how is assisting piecemeal. The progress being made is far too slow, parents to communicate with their blind children dealt and deaf children are suffering because of it. Access to with and, on the broader point about all children with communication support for families with deaf children some disability or another, how are parents enabled to and young people is fundamentally important; the communicate with them, for instance, those with dyslexia? Government must send a clear signal to local authorities There may be less of an issue in those particular cases. that it should be provided where needed. Otherwise, The point that I would like some clarity on, and the we will be here in 10 years’ time, still having this debate Minister is welcome to write to me on these points if about the lack of sign language provision for families. he thinks that would be appropriate, is that we do not I beg the Committee to support this amendment. see children on their own; we see them as part of a family and a set of relationships. I imagine that has Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I, too, rise to support probably been dealt with elsewhere in the Bill, and I the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, probably have not followed that part closely enough. and agree with the points that she has already made. I hope that that is helpful. In July 2011, the Prime Minister said in response to a Question from my right honourable friend Sir Malcolm 7.45 pm Bruce MP: “We do a lot to support different languages throughout the Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble UK. Signing is an incredibly valuable language for many people Baroness, Lady Howe, for moving this amendment in our country. Those pilot schemes were successful”.—[Official and for continuing to raise this issue. In tabling this Report, Commons, 13/07/2011; col. 308.] amendment, she is highlighting a specific need for The scheme that the Prime Minister was referring to local authorities to secure provision to support parents was the I-Sign consortium, which has piloted family of children with a hearing loss. I think that the noble sign language classes in two regions. NDCS, with Baroness spoke in a recent debate in the Chamber support from the Department for Education, continues when I was supporting my noble friend Lady Jolly. I to work to support the development of sign language agree that where there are identified needs, local authorities courses. However, local authorities cannot be compelled should provide communication support for parents of to provide sign language support because there is no children with hearing loss. I recognise the importance duty to do so. As has already been outlined, a very of early access to language to help children to learn high percentage of deaf children are born into hearing and to thrive, and it is vital that parents and families families who have no previous first-hand experience of get support to communicate in those early months. deafness. These families really need support to The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, mentioned the communicate with their child, particularly where sign importance of early bonding between the child and language is chosen. the parents. I am not trained in social work, but even I It has been estimated that where deaf children need understand that that is extremely important to the to communicate in sign language, eight out of 10 parents development of the child. If that does not take place, of deaf children never learn how to communicate with the development of the child will be permanently set their child through sign language. Without the right back. support from the start, deaf children and young people As noble Lords will note, the Bill already places are vulnerable to isolation, abuse, bullying, poor self-esteem duties on local authorities to identify, assess and secure and low levels of attainment. We have already heard special educational provision for all children and young from the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, how local people with SEN. This could include sign language authorities are very patchy in their provision of sign support for those who need it. During the recent language services. debate that I referred to, one of the issues raised was The SEN reform in this Bill offers the potential to sign language training for parents, of which more generate a step change in the provision of sign language later. Your Lordships may find it useful to refer to the courses for families. For example, personal budgets Hansard of that debate, because I found the response may enable families to pay for this support themselves. of my noble friend Lady Jolly very interesting. GC 121 Children and Families Bill[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Children and Families Bill GC 122

The Bill also requires local authorities to set out a support as this would lead to confusion and gives local offer of the support that is available so that precedence to particular types of need over other, parents are aware of what is available to them. Clause 32 equally pressing types of need. With this reassurance I requires local authorities to provide parents of children hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw and young people with advice and information about her amendment. matters relating to special educational needs, which will include parents of deaf children. However, it is for Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I thank the local authorities to decide the appropriate way to Minister for his considered reply. I am not entirely structure that support. I can see that the noble Baroness happy with what he said, although I was not expecting is not entirely content with that statement. to hear a great deal of detail. He gave some moments There is already support available to assist parents of hope with the I-Sign consortium being funded but, of deaf children. Through teachers of the deaf and as we all know, that will go only some way. I thank the sensory support services, local authorities are providing noble Baronesses, Lady Wilkins and Lady Walmsley, support to parents of deaf children on communicating and my noble friend Lord Listowel for their brief with their child, which can include sign language contributions. I cannot say that I am not going to training. The Department for Education is working bring the amendment back because I and others will with the voluntary and community sector to enable want to think about whether there is a better way of local areas to benchmark the support that they provide getting rather more out of this section. This is such an to deaf children and to access tools and information important group, and their basic human rights are at on the most effective approaches. In particular, we are least as important as everybody else’s. We need to funding the National Sensory Impairment Partnership, ensure that they have the proper proportion of whatever NatSIP, to carry out a benchmarking exercise and resources are available. I beg leave to withdraw the develop an outcome framework for local authorities amendment. to assess how well they are supporting deaf pupils. They will work with sensory support services across Amendment 216 withdrawn. the country in the development of a local offer for deaf, blind and multi-sensory impaired children and Amendment 217 not moved. their parents. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, talked about multiple sensory impairment. Schedule 3 agreed. We funded the development of an early support guide for parents of deaf children and the I-Sign Clause 73: Interpretation of Part 3 project to develop a family sign language programme. We are funding the I-Sign consortium to build on the Amendments 218 and 218A not moved. learning from this project and improve the availability Clause 73 agreed. of sign language support for parents and families. As part of this, I-Sign is testing the use of personal Amendments 219 to 223 not moved. budgets to fund sign language. As I have already explained, there is already support Earl Attlee: My Lords, I think this may be a convenient available for parents of deaf children in addition to time to adjourn the Committee. the duties in the Bill. It will not be appropriate to have specific duties relating to specific types of need and Committee adjourned at 7.53 pm.

WS 17 Written Statements[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Written Statements WS 18

The CAA has incorporated the findings of the GA Written Statements Red Tape Challenge into its own internal review to produce a comprehensive GA Reform Programme. Wednesday 6 November 2013 This will support a programme of deregulation and self-regulation for the GA sector. It will also remove Afghanistan: Reserve Forces complexity, look to deregulate where possible and Statement where not, consider how to allow the GA sector to take on more responsibility and accountability for its own safety where possible and appropriate. This has The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry already started with the launch in September 2013 of a of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): My right hon. consultation on deregulating for airworthiness purposes Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces all UK-registered single-seat microlights. Starting in (Mr Mark Francois) has made the following Written November, the CAA will lead a series of workshops Ministerial Statement: with the GA sector to identify other areas that would With the expiry of the call-out Order made on benefit most from deregulation or self-regulation. These 6 November 2012, a new Order has been made under moves represent the start of an ambitious programme Section 54 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable of work to follow. reservists to continue to be called out into service to The Government has successfully lobbied for an support operations in Afghanistan. The new order is evaluation of the application of commercial aviation effective until 10 November 2014. Reservists continue safety requirements to non-commercial aviation to be to make a valuable contribution to operations in that included in the EU Regulatory Fitness and Performance country and almost 1,500 have been called out during (REFIT) Programme and welcomes the European the last year. Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) Roadmap for General Aviation. Both the Government and the CAA will Aviation: Red Tape Challenge engage with the GA community over the coming Statement months to identify priorities for reform and take these forward within the EU’s reform programme. The Minister of State, Department for Transport The CAA will strengthen its engagement with the (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Honourable Friend, the sector to improve consultative arrangements and ensure Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport effective representation. The CAA is committed to (Robert Goodwill) has made the following Ministerial being open and transparent in its engagement and Statement: collaboration with the GA community. It will work with a firm objective to support education and compliance I, together with my right hon. Friend the Member rather than regulation and enforcement, using legal for Welwyn Hatfield, the Minister without Portfolio, instruments and powers only as a last resort. wish to inform the House of the changes to the regulation of general aviation following the General The CAA will involve the GA sector in the development Aviation Red Tape Challenge. of a new regulatory framework and its associated policies; there will be opportunities for the sector to The General Aviation (GA) Red Tape Challenge challenge the CAA when it believes regulation is unduly ran from 11th April to 16th May 2013. It received burdensome; there will be more scrutiny of the CAA’s nearly 500 responses, including 298 via e-mail, three fees and charges to provide greater transparency; and times as many as any other theme to date. These the CAA will improve the quality of information it responses identified many areas where improvements provides. From the responses to the Red Tape Challenge are needed and highlighted the need for a change in it is clear that regulatory complexity has led to approach to regulating GA. As a result of this, the misunderstandings. To address this, the CAA will run government is launching a substantial programme of a ‘myth-busting’ initiative to clarify what exactly reform that will help support a vibrant GA sector. The regulations require. For example, it will debunk the GA sector currently supports around 50,000 jobs in myth that the CAA requires all aircraft movements the UK and makes an overall economic contribution within the UK to be logged. to the UK economy of £1.4 billion per annum. It could and should be able to contribute more. To facilitate the effective and timely implementation The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), the independent of these measures, the Government is appointing an regulator of civil aviation in the UK, recognises the independent ‘Challenge Panel’ including GA industry need to create a culture change in the regulation of the representatives. This panel will report directly to ministers. GA sector. As part of this culture change the CAA is It will provide a ‘critical friend’ function to the CAA. setting up a new GA unit within its current structure. The Challenge Panel will run initially for six months This is firm recognition that general aviation requires until April 2014. During this time the Panel will monitor different, and less onerous, regulation to that of and support the implementation of the CAA’s commercial air transport. The CAA’s GA unit will be deregulatory programme. It will also be asked to identify dedicated to effective and proportionate regulation further opportunities to deregulate and to promote that supports and encourages growth of the GA sector. growth of the sector. It will provide to ministers an The unit will also work with government to identify interim report in January and a final report in April. potential funding for new technologies to support the We will task the Challenge Panel to propose ideas, sector. It will be fully set up within the CAA by April and will also encourage the CAA and Government 2014. Departments such as the Department for Business, WS 19 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 20

Innovation and Skills and the Home Office, to consider Alongside these arrangements, the National Institute where projects might support and encourage an innovative for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) will continue and dynamic GA sector. For example, how best to its work to introduce the broader value assessment for support a dynamic leisure and training sector, and new medicines covered by value-based pricing. We how to remove outdated paperwork which serves little have listened to feedback from patients’ groups that purpose. they would welcome further opportunities to feed into In announcing these measures we are announcing the development of the new arrangements for value the launch of a “right to reply” consultation by the assessment and have agreed that NICE will carry out a CAA into its response to the GA Red Tape Challenge. full public consultation before implementing the methods This consultation will run until 6th December and is a for wider value assessment in autumn 2014. Publication good opportunity for the GA sector to make its own of the complete 2014 PPRS is expected later in the assessment of the CAA’s detailed response. The responses year. to this consultation will be available to the Challenge In addition to the agreement, I am also publishing Panel, which will be able to submit its own views on today the Government response to the consultation the CAA response within its January interim report. on the Statutory Pharmaceutical Pricing Scheme, which These reforms mark an important and significant contained proposals to strengthen the scheme, and step-change in the approach to GA regulation. The align it more closely to the PPRS. This scheme provides new regulatory regime will be founded on risk-based an important safeguard for the NHS, controlling the intervention, proportionate to the safety needs of informed prices of branded medicines sold to the NHS by participants whilst protecting uninvolved third parties pharmaceutical companies that decide not to join the and supporting and encouraging a flourishing GA voluntary PPRS. Through this response document, we sector. We will work closely with the General Aviation are setting out the changes we will be making, including sector and the GA representative bodies in particular introducing a 15 per cent price cut on branded medicines in taking this forward. sold by statutory scheme companies. We will shortly General Aviation can and should contribute to the be introducing amending regulations to effect these UK’s economic success, whilst providing a safe changes. environment for participants and the public. The Copies of the Heads of Agreement, the response to Government’s aim is therefore to make the UK the the consultation and the related impact assessment best country in the world for General Aviation. have been placed in the Library. Copies are available I will place copies of the documents in the libraries to hon Members from the Vote office and to noble of both Houses. Lords from the Printed Paper Office. Tax Compliance: Cayman Islands Health: Pharmaceutical Pricing Schemes Statement Statement The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton) (Con): My honourable friend the Exchequer The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Secretary to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): I am pleased to announce made the following Written Ministerial Statement. today the Heads of Agreement on the new Pharmaceutical An Agreement to improve international tax compliance Price Regulation Scheme (PPRS). The PPRS is a voluntary was signed with the Cayman Islands on 5 November scheme agreed between the Department of Health, 2013. This Agreement sets out precise details of acting on behalf of the UK Government and Northern information which will be automatically exchanged. Irelandandthebrandedpharmaceuticalindustry,represented The text of the new Agreement has been deposited in by the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry the Libraries of both Houses and will be made available (ABPI), under section 262 of the National Health on HM Revenue and Customs’ website. Service Act 2006. The current voluntary pricing scheme, the 2009 PPRS, will terminate on 31 December 2013. Following Water Quality: Bathing Waters negotiations, the Department of Health and the ABPI Statement have reached agreement on the outline terms of a new scheme which will operate for five years starting from The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 1 January 2014. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De The new scheme will provide an unprecedented Mauley) (Con): My Hon Friend the Parliamentary level of certainty on almost all the NHS branded Under Secretary of State (Dan Rogerson) has today medicines bill. The bill will stay flat over the next two made the following statement. years and will grow slowly after that. The industry will Today I would like to announce to the House the make compensating payments to the Department of results of water quality monitoring at England’s popular Health if NHS spending on branded medicines exceeds beaches and lakeside sites during the 2013 bathing the agreed growth rate. The agreement therefore provides season. stability and predictability to both the Government Between May and September, the Environment Agency and the UK pharmaceutical industry, supporting the took samples of water at 415 bathing areas that have industry’s global competitiveness. It will encourage been designated under the Bathing Water Regulations the use of innovative and effective new medicines in 2013 to test for compliance with the water quality the NHS. standards set by the EU Bathing Water Directive. WS 21 Written Statements[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Written Statements WS 22

High quality bathing water is important both for of circumstances at each bathing water. The main the health of water users and for our seaside resorts sources of pollution are sewage and animal waste whose economies depend on people’s enjoyment of washed into water, particularly during rainfall. the beach. This year a record number of 342 of the 415 These results are particularly encouraging because bathing waters – over 82% - met the highest standard, we are now only two years away from full implementation known as guideline. Almost 99% have complied with of the revised Bathing Water Directive, which will the Directive’s mandatory minimum standard. This introduce much tighter water quality standards from means that the compliance rate has returned to the 2015. If these standards applied now, over 55% would level we would expect after last year’s extreme weather meet the highest “Excellent” standard and almost 90% conditions. It confirms that investment by water companies would pass the new minimum standard. I remain and other measures to improve bathing water quality committed to all designated waters passing the new are paying-off over the long-term. minimum standard. Water companies, national and Only five sites failed this year – Allonby, Fleetwood, local government and businesses and the wider community St Annes, Seascale and Instow. Failures to meet the have a part to play to ensure we meet the new standards standards are caused by a complex and individual set and have beaches that people can enjoy.

WA 41 Written Answers[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Written Answers WA 42

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Written Answers of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): No. The F35B’s stealth capabilities demand minimal markings and the Wednesday 6 November 2013 United Kingdom’s aircraft will carry only national markings. Alcohol Questions Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Armed Forces: Helicopters Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the total amount spent on alcohol during 2012–13 by Asked by Lord West of Spithead the Home Office. [HL2979] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Royal Navy aircrew and maintenance personnel The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home have now converted to the Merlin 3 helicopter. Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): The Home [HL2992] Office accounting systems do not identify separate expenditure on alcoholic refreshments. The information To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the first cannot be obtained without incurring disproportionate Royal Navy Merlin 3 helicopter squadron will stand cost. up as part of the Commando Helicopter Force. [HL2993] Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the marinisation of the Merlin 3 helicopter has been total amount spent on alcohol during 2012–13 by fully funded in the Ministry of Defence forward Department for Transport. [HL2983] programme. [HL2994]

The Minister of State, Department for Transport To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the (Baroness Kramer) (LD): During the Financial Year handover of the Merlin Mk3 airframe to the 2012-13, no alcohol has been purchased for use within Commando Helicopter Force will take place if the Department’s headquarters building nor at its marinisation has not been completed. [HL2995] Agencies, except paid for by Department for Transport staff, or Ministers. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): As of 31 October Animals in Scientific Procedures 2013, 31 aircrew and 150 maintenance personnel have Question converted to the Merlin Mk3 helicopter. 32 aircrew and 33 maintenance personnel are currently undergoing Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough conversion training, with a further 24 maintenance personnel entering conversion training before the end To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of the year. (1) pharmaceutical products, (2) medical procedures, and (3) medical devices approved by the National The first Royal Navy Merlin Mk3 helicopter squadron, Institute for Health and Care Excellence, have 846 Naval Air Squadron, will stand up as part of the been tested using animals at some stage in their Commando Helicopter Force in autumn 2014. development. [HL3100] The ship-optimisation of the Merlin Mk3 helicopter is part of a wider package of aircraft enhancements The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department that form the Merlin Life Sustainment Programme. of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The information requested The programme is currently in its Assessment Phase; is not collected. programme funding will be considered as part of the Medicines for human use containing new active Main Gate Business Case. substances may not be developed without first being The transition of the Merlin Mk3 airframe to the tested by an approved method. Unless a scientifically Commando Helicopter Force is already underway and valid alternative is available, this will involve the use of is due to complete in advance of the planned modification animals. Such safety testing is a statutory requirement of the airframe. of European medicines law and is a necessary stage in the licensing of a new medicinal product for human use. Children: Care Question Armed Forces: Aircraft Asked by Lord Hylton Question Asked by Lord West of Spithead To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many children have been taken into the care of local To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the authorities primarily as a result of the imprisonment Royal Navy’s F35B squadron’s aircraft will carry of a parent or a person with parental responsibility Fleet Air Arm Squadron and Navy markings. in each of the last three years for which figures are [HL3029] available. [HL3086] WA 43 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 44

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): The Government Schools (Lord Nash) (Con): Information on the number has made no specific assessment. It is for the police to of children who are taken into the care of local investigate and submit to the Crown Prosecution Service authorities primarily as a result of the imprisonment (CPS) appropriate cases where there is evidence of a of a parent or a person with parental responsibility is contravention of Section 1 of the Dealing in Cultural not collected by the Department. Objects (Offences) Act 2003, which makes it an offence to deal dishonestly in tainted cultural objects. (Border Force officers also have enforcement powers in cases Children: Child Labour involving import and export). It is anticipated that any Question such case would be drawn to the attention of the Asked by Baroness Doocey Secretary of State in the event that an application was made to export such an object. The Government takes To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the issue of illicit trafficking in cultural objects very children who have been previous victims of forced seriously and the Department for Culture, Media and or compulsory labour in the United Kingdom are Sport and the Home Office work closely together in now in education. [HL3122] this area. The Cultural Property Advice guide supports members of the trade in art, antiques and antiquities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for in understanding and complying with this legislation. Schools (Lord Nash) (Con): The Government does not collect this information. We recognise that any child victim of trafficking is in urgent need of protection Defence: Assistance Fund and of supportive, secure care. Local authorities should Question ensure that they can call on appropriately trained and experienced individuals to help these children. From Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno 2011 to 2013 the Department for Education invested £1.4 million in a Barnardo’s project to establish safe To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the specialist accommodation for trafficked children. purpose of the Defence Assistance Fund; and what was its cost in 2010–11, 2011–12, and 2012–13. [HL3015] Deaf and Deafblind People Questions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): The Defence Assistance Fund (DAF) is a Ministry of Defence To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans (MOD) fund used to deliver activities in support of they have for the development of more specialised international defence engagement objectives. DAF-funded community mental health services for deaf and activities are aimed at developing the bilateral relationships deafblind people. [HL3004] and partnerships on which the MOD relies in support To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of current and contingent operations and to support have plans to introduce national commissioning for wider overseas Government objectives. Approximately all mental health services for deaf and deafblind half of the DAF is used to fund international defence people. [HL3005] education activities in the UK and overseas. Funds allocated to the DAF over the past three The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department financial years are set out in the following table: of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): NHS England does not have any plans for commissioning community mental Financial Year DAF Allocation (£ millions) health services for deaf and deafblind people. These 2010-11 11.588 services are the commissioning responsibility of clinical 2011-12 12.027 commissioning groups. 2012-13 12.327[1] NHS England does not currently have plans to [1] A further £2.5 million was allocated to the DAF in-year introduce national commissioning for all mental health through reprioritisation to support implementation of the services for deaf and deafblind people. International Defence Engagement Strategy.

Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Egypt Act 2003 Question Question Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn To ask Her Majesty’s Government, when recently To ask Her Majesty’s Government what information looted antiquities are publicly offered for sale by they have received about the process of drafting a auction in the United Kingdom, what assessment new constitution for Egypt. [HL2962] they have made of the actions taken by police to enforce the provisions of the Dealing in Cultural Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The Egyptian Objects (Offences) Act 2003 and to ensure that no government tasked a committee of 50 with proposing such object receives an export licence to leave the amendments to the 2012 constitution. Work began on United Kingdom. [HL2825] 7 September with 60 working days to complete WA 45 Written Answers[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Written Answers WA 46 consultations and drafting. The former Parliamentary Letter from Peter Fullerton, Director, Collection and Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Production Operations, Office for National Statistics, Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East to Lord Willis of Knaresborough dated November 2013. Bedfordshire (Mr Burt), was told by the President of As Director General for the Office for National the Constitutional Committee during a call on Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary 23 September that the process was on track. He said Questions asking: that the aim was a democratic and open society “worthy a) for each of the last three years, how many of our times”. 18–24 year olds in England on zero-hours contracts are in full-time education. HL3098 b) for the latest year for which figures are available, Employment: 18-24 Year-olds what were the average gross earnings of 18–24 year Questions olds in England on zero-hours contracts who were (1) in full-time education, and (2) not in full-time Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough education. HL3099 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many The requested information is not available. Information 18–24 year-olds in England in employment are regarding people working on zero-hours contracts is (1) in full-time education, and (2) not in full-time available from the Labour Force Survey (LFS). However, education; and of those in full-time education how full estimates of the total number of people in employment many are (a) in full-time jobs, (b) in part-time jobs, on such contracts are not available from this source. or (c) self-employed. [HL3097] This is, in part, due to respondents being unable to identify their type of employment contract correctly. This prevents reliable estimates being produced by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): Table 1 shows age. the number of people in England aged1 18 to 24 in From autumn 2013, one of ONS’s large-scale monthly employment who are (1) in full-time education, and business surveys will include some questions on zero-hours (2) not in full-time education. It shows of those in contracts so as to obtain robust data directly from full-time education how many are (a) in full-time jobs, employers. These will be asked on a quarterly basis (b) in part-time jobs, or (c) self-employed. This information with the first results expected to be published in early is taken from Quarter 2, 2013 of the Labour Force 2014. Survey.

Table 1: People aged 18 to 24 in employment who are (1) in full time education and (2) not in full time education, Q2 2013 Environment: Sea Defences Number Question

In employment 2,847,000 Asked by Lord Fearn In full time education. Of those: 391,000 In F/T employment 54,000 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what sea defences In P/T employment 338,000 are in place in (1) Merseyside, and (2) Lancashire; and which sea defences are at present in the planning Self Employed 11,000 stages in those regions. [HL3041] Not in full time education 2,455,000 Base: 18 to 24 year olds, England Source: Q2 2013 Labour Force Survey The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 1 Age used is academic age, which is the respondents age as at for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De the preceding 31st August Mauley) (Con): The following sea defences are in place Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough in Merseyside and Lancashire; all figures are for km of sea defences. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, for each of the last three years, how many 18–24 year olds in Asset Type MAINTAINER TOTAL England on zero-hours contracts are (1) in full-time (KM) Environment Local education, and (2) not in full-time education. Agency Authority Private [HL3098] Sea 41.6 16.3 10.8 68.7 To ask Her Majesty’s Government, for the latest defence year for which figures are available, what were the (man- average gross earnings of 18–24 year olds in England made) on zero-hours contracts who were (1) in full-time Sea 1.7 8.9 10.3 20.9 education, and (2) not in full-time education. defence (natural) [HL3099] Coastal 3.1 62.3 10.2 75.6 protection (man- Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The information made) requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Coastal 0.6 10.9 12.0 23.5 Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority to protection reply. (natural) WA 47 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 48

Asset Type MAINTAINER TOTAL The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department (KM) for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Environment Local Mauley) (Con): This proposal referred to by the noble Agency Authority Private Lord relates to the ongoing alignment of powers conferred on the Commission following the entry into force of TOTAL 47.0 98.4 43.3 188.7 (KM) the Treaty of Lisbon. In this case it concerns a review of the delegation of powers to the Commission for five related directives on coffee, chocolate, certain specified Figures provided by the Environment Agency. sugars, jams and preserved milks. The Government These defences are located in areas such as Southport, has been fully involved in the negotiations and a revised Lytham St Annes, Blackpool & Cleveleys, Cockerham proposal was adopted by the Council of Ministers and and Morecambe, Bootle, Crosby and Litherland. European Parliament on 9 October 2013. The Regulation as adopted sees a substantial reduction This year Defra approved £63 million for defences to the scope that was the original proposal for powers at Rossall and £22 million for Anchorsholme, both on conferred on the Commission to amend the annexes the Lancashire coast. These schemes, led by Blackpool of these directives using delegated powers. For example Council and Wyre Borough Council, aim to better product definitions and product names were considered protect 12,000 properties from coastal flooding. to be essential elements of these directives, and will Construction works are due to commence in January continue to be subject to the full Ordinary Legislative 2014. Procedure. In addition any delegated powers will not The following are coast protection schemes currently be for an indeterminate period but for a fixed period in the planning stages: of five years, with extension as necessary. Scheme: Led by: Cost: Food: Food Banks Knott End- Replacement Environment £978,000 Question on-Sea of 200m Agency Coastal section of sea Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Defences defence wall to better To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the report protect 681 on food aid in the United Kingdom, including food properties. banks, carried out for the Department for Environment, Completion Food and Rural Affairs by a team based at the due 2014/15. University of Warwick earlier this year has not yet Morecambe Replacement Lancaster £10 million been published; and when they intend to publish Wave of 4km of City Council Reflection wave the report. [HL3091] Wall reflection wall to better The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department protect 11,500 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De properties. Mauley) (Con): Defra has commissioned research to Delivery in review publically available evidence on the landscape phases over 5yrs starting of food aid provision and access in the UK. in 2014. All Government funded research projects are required Church Scar Preliminary Fylde £17 million to go through the necessary review and quality assurance Coast investigations Borough (estimate) processes prior to publication. Once this process is Protection ongoing to Council complete, the conclusions of this work will be made Scheme and present Fairhaven business case available on the Government’s website. Coast to replace Protection approx 2km Freedom of Information Scheme of sea wall. Construction Question due to begin Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark 2015/16. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many freedom of information requests they have turned Data provided by the Environment Agency. down since the formation of the Coalition that have subsequently been upheld on appeal and complied with. [HL2877] EU: Food The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Question McNally) (LD): The Ministry of Justice publishes Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon annual statistical reports on the handling of requests for information under the Freedom of Information To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Act 2000 for central government. These reports include they have made of the proposal for a European statistics on the outcomes of internal reviews and Union regulation (COM (2012) 150) amending food appeals to the Information Commissioner. These reports safety directives as regards the powers to be conferred can be accessed on the following webpage: on the Commission in relation to the ″breakfast https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/ directives″. [HL3072] government-foi-statistics WA 49 Written Answers[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Written Answers WA 50

We do not hold statistics on the number of decisions will vary in response to local needs. There is also a duty by the Information Commissioner appealed to the upon the National Health Service to ensure that resources First Tier Tribunal (Information Rights) and beyond, are used as equitably and appropriately as possible. or on the outcomes of such further appeals. To obtain From 1 April 2013, Tier 4 CAMH Services are this information we would have to ask each central commissioned by NHS England. NHS England is government body to investigate the outcome of each about to embark on a review of Tier 4 CAMH Services appeal individually. Therefore it would only be possible across the country which will help inform decisions to provide this information at disproportionate cost. about how such services are to be provided and delivered in the future. This will enable them to consider any Health: Free Social Care emerging evidence of resource constraints and their Question likely impact. As far as the role of the voluntary sector is concerned, Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool whilst there has been no formal assessment of their To ask Her Majesty’s Government what role, the Government recognises the important consideration they are giving to the proposal of contribution that the voluntary sector makes in meeting Macmillan Cancer Support that free social care the needs of children and young people with a wide should be provided to terminally ill patients wishing range of mental health problems, including providing to die in their own homes; and what financial advocacy and support, as well as some more specialised impact they estimate for the NHS through the services such as in-patient services. implementation of such a policy. [HL2973] Internet: Violent, Sexual and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Sensitive Sites of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The Government recognises Question the need to ensure that the care people receive at the end of life is compassionate, appropriate and supports Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick the exercise of choice. Following recommendations To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light from the independent Palliative Care Funding Review, of the recent posting on Facebook of a video of a we established eight pilots to inform our decision on beheading, what steps they will take to protect social care funding at the end of life, with the intention United Kingdom internet users from exposure to of establishing a new funding system for palliative care violent, sexual or sensitive content. [HL2923] by 2015. Oversight of the pilots is being undertaken by NHS England. Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): It is not for Government to tell media organisations whether they Health: Mental Health can use a particular picture or video, as long as it is Questions not illegal. However, we do expect them to act responsibly, put appropriate protections in place (eg warnings or Asked by Lord Boateng age restrictions) and listen to the views of their customers. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Following the outcry from users over this content, assessment of the role of the voluntary sector in the Government welcomes the decision by Facebook to delivery of child and adolescent mental health remove it. services. [HL2963] Government is working, through the UK Council To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their on Child Internet Safety, to develop a range of measures assessment of the relative accessibility of child and which will ensure that children, and other internet adolescent mental health services in (1) deprived users, are protected from harmful or inappropriate urban communities, and (2) rural areas where reliability content. For example, the network-level parental control of and access to public transport is an issue. filters currently being developed by the largest internet service providers will allow parents and other users to [HL2964] filter out categories of content, such as those which To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment may be violent or sexual in nature. they have made of the impact of resource constraints on the commissioning of child and adolescent mental health services. [HL2965] London Underground: Bakerloo Line Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): With the exception of Tier 4 (in-patient) Child and Adolescent Mental Health To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Services (CAMHS), local clinical commissioning groups have they made of the case for extending the Bakerloo (CCGs) are responsible for commissioning CAMH line further into South London. [HL3118] services to best meet the needs of their local population. The level of provision of CAMHS, as for all health The Minister of State, Department for Transport services they commission, is decided by the local CCGs (Baroness Kramer) (LD): None. Any proposal to extend for all areas, whether urban or rural. Decisions made the London Underground is a matter for the Mayor by CCGs are underpinned by clinical insight and knowledge and Transport for London to consider, including how of local healthcare needs and the provision of services such a proposal would be funded. WA 51 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 52

Marine Conservation Areas District Valuer or other third party independent valuations. Question All disposals are handled in line with NHS Estatecode and Cabinet Office and HM Treasury guidelines. Asked by Lord Hunt of Chesterton To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress Property to be disposed of is first listed on the has been made to establish marine protected areas Electronic Property Information Mapping Service website, around England; and what is their target for the which allows other public sector bodies to purchase it. Properties are listed on this website for 40 working next five years. [HL3058] days and if no other public sector organisation expresses The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department an interest then they will be marketed. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Since the establishment of NHS PS on 1 April Mauley) (Con): We aim to announce the decision on 2013, the company has disposed of 16 freehold properties, designation of the first set of new Marine Conservation generating £13.1 million of receipts for the public Zones shortly.These will add to existing marine protected purse. Information about the sales of surplus NHS areas, which currently cover nearly a quarter of English land and buildings disposed of by NHS PS are published inshore waters. in their board papers. In the waters around England there are 44 Special Areas of Conservation with marine components, 44 The following table lists the property and date it Special Protection Areas with marine components was sold, the amount it was sold for and the market and over 300 coastal Sites of Special Scientific Interest. value. We also aim to announce our plans for future work on Marine Conservation Zones; this is being considered Contracted Estimated alongside other environmental priorities, within the Sale Market Date of Price Value limits of what is affordable. Asset Name and Address Completion (£ million) (£ million)

The Link Health Centre, 4Apr 0.085 0.085 NHS Property Services Limited Farrer Street, Stockton-on- 2013 Questions Tees Asked by Lord Warner Poole House, Stokesley 1May 2.715 2.715 Road, Nunthorpe 2013 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether it is St James’ Hospital, 7May 0.765 0.800 the policy required of NHS Property Services Ltd Development Land, 2013 to sell surplus NHS land and buildings for full Riverhead Close, Southsea market value; and whether they have sold any such The Elms Health Centre, 13 May 0.465 0.465 High Street, Potters Bar 2013 land and buildings at less than full market Windmill House, Everett 22 May 5.100 5.000 & value. [HL2902] Close, Bushy Heath 2013 5.200 To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Redclyffe House, 63 The 30 May 0.477 0.477 Chairman of NHS Property Services Ltd has resigned; Avenue, Gosport 2013 how long he was in post; and whether any other 3 Auckland Road, 7Jun 0.085 0.085 non-executive members of the board have Scunthorpe 2013 72 Laburnum Avenue, 14 Jun 0.090 0.090 resigned. [HL2903] Wallsend 2013 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Devizes Clinic, New Park 27 Jun 0.395 0.395 details of sales of surplus NHS land and buildings Street, Devizes 2013 made by NHS Property Services Ltd are published Upton Clinic, Weston 8Aug 0.170 0.170 in any board documents. [HL2904] Grove, Upton 2013 St Johns Surgery, Manor 14 Aug 0.060 0.060 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Farm Road, Huyton 2013 of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The Chair of NHS Balsall Common Clinic, 148 16 Aug 0.230 0.185 Station Rd, Balsall 2013 Property Services Limited (NHS PS) has resigned after Common, Coventry successfully steering the company through its setting Blacon Health Clinic, 28 Aug 0.255 0.255 & up, launch and transition. He was appointed on 1 August Church Way, Blacon 2013 0.185 2012, on a two year contract. Alcester Hospital, Priory 30 Aug 1.400 1.125 The decision as to whether a property in the portfolio Road, Alcester 2013 of NHS PS is surplus to National Health Service 17 Castle Street, Worcester 6 Sep 0.283 0.283 & operational requirements resides with the commissioners, 2013 0.162 i.e. NHS England or a clinical commissioning group. Health Clinic, Market 16 Sep 0.590 0.475 Square, Bishops Stortford 2013 NHS PS will only take forward a property according to the needs of commissioners, and a property will be Note: released for disposal once commissioners have confirmed that it is no longer required for the delivery of NHS These properties were based on a market value range services. The sale of these properties made a total profit of £495,500, NHS PS’s assets which are to be sold are marketed above estimated market value. through an arm’s length open market process, which ensures that the market value is achieved in a sale. The identity of purchasers cannot be released to protect their Where necessary the sale price is supported by the confidentiality. WA 53 Written Answers[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Written Answers WA 54

NHS: Expenditure Charge Against CRL Questions — Summary 2008-09 £000s 2007-08 £000s Asked by Lord Bassam of Brighton Gross Capital 25,836 24,572 Expenditure To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the Less: Book Value of 00 detailed capital expenditure for the Royal Sussex Assets Disposed of to NHS County Hospital for each year from 1997 to Organisations 2013. [HL2976] Less: Book Value of (4,550) (9,328) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their Assets Disposed of to Non-NHS capital expenditure plans for the Royal Sussex Hospital Organisations [HL2977] for the period from 2013 to 2020. Plus: Loss on 00 Disposal of Donated Assets Less: Capital 00 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Grants Received of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The Department routinely Less: Donations (1,429) 655 collects financial information from National Health Charge against the 19,857 15,899 Service trusts, but this information does not distinguish CRL between individual hospitals within that trust. Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Charge Against CRL – Summary 2006-07 £000s Trust includes the Royal Sussex County Hospital, Gross Capital Expenditure 18,980 Royal Alexandra Children’s Hospital, Sussex Eye Hospital, Less: Book Value of Assets (8,744) Princess Royal Hospital, and the Hurstwood Park Disposed of Regional Centre for Neurosciences. Plus: Loss on Disposal of 0 The figures in the following tables are a breakdown Donated Assets for Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Less: Capital Grants 0 Less: Donations Towards the (1,926) Trust of the charge against the Capital Resource Limit Acquisition of Fixed Assets (CRL) data collected from 2006-07 to 2012-13 Charge against the CRL 8,310 summarisation schedules.

Charge Against CRL In common with many other public and private — Summary 2012-13 £000s 2011-12 £000s sector organisations the Department only holds accounting data at organisation level for seven years, Gross Capital 24,099 27,638 Expenditure and therefore figures prior to 2006-07 are not available. Less: Book Value of (1,442) (101) Future predicted capital cash flow is in the following Assets Disposed of table: Less: Capital 00 Grants £ million Less: Donations (725) (409) Towards the Sunk costs 26.44 Acquisition of 2013-14 12.03 Non-Current Assets 2014-15 27.26 Charge against the 21,932 27,128 2015-16 30.25 CRL 2016-17 64.33 2017-18 58.06 Charge Against CRL — Summary 2010-11 £000s 2009-10 £000s 2018-19 66.12 2019-20 42.14 Gross Capital 48,015 23,373 2020-21 44.72 Expenditure Including IFRS Impact This information is the best that is currently available Less: Book Value of 00but is subject to change. Assets Disposed of to NHS Organisations Palestine Less: Book Value of (43) (105) Assets Disposed of Questions to Non-NHS Organisations Asked by Baroness Deech Plus: Loss on 00To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Disposal of Donated Assets consider Palestinians who were born and live in Less: Capital 00Gaza and the West Bank to be refugees. [HL2890] Grants Received Less: Donations (649) (525) Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): Under the operational Charge against the 47,323 22,743 definition used by the UN Relief and Works Agency CRL (UNRWA), Palestine refugees are people whose normal WA 55 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 56 place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 Railways: Colne and May 1948, and who lost both their homes and Question means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, and their dependents. The descendants of Asked by Lord Greaves Palestine refugee males are also eligible for registration. Some of those eligible were born and/or live in Gaza To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in each of and the West Bank. UNRWA’s mandate has been the past five years, how many trains to Colne have regularly considered and renewed by the UN General been turned around before reaching either Nelson Assembly. or Colne due to their running late. [HL3116] Palestine refugees are not necessarily refugees as defined by the 1951 UN Refugee Convention. Those The Minister of State, Department for Transport Palestinians receiving UNRWAassistance or protection (Baroness Kramer) (LD): This is not information that are ineligible for refugee status under the Convention, is held by the Government. pursuant to Article 1D of the Convention. Those Under the Franchise Agreement, there is no obligation Palestinians who have not been assisted or protected to provide the Government with train performance by UNRWA must establish, if seeking asylum, that information to the level of detail requested. The Train they meet the definition of a refugee in Article 1A of Operator may have the information to this level of the Convention. detail. Asked by Baroness Deech To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Railways: First Great Western United Nations Relief and Works Agency keeps Question records of the origins of Palestinians under its care; Asked by Lord Bradshaw and, if so, how many such persons left Israel in 1948. [HL2891] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the premium to be paid by First Great Western over the 23-month period of the franchise extension; what is The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) the basis of the profit-sharing agreement; and whether (Con): The registration of refugees forms an essential the amount of the premium is capped. [HL3040] part of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency’s mandate and operations. This includes both the original The Minister of State, Department for Transport refugees from 1948 and their descendants. When the (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The agreement with First Agency began operations in 1950, it was responding Great Western will see a premium of at least £32.5m to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees who being delivered over the 23 months of the contract. A had lost their home and livelihood as a result of the profit sharing arrangement is in place but the details 1948 conflict. of this are commercially confidential. The actual premium/ subsidy figures will be published by the Office of Rail Regulation on their website, annually in arrears. Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) (Amendment) Railways: North East and North West Regulations 2011 Links Question Question Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Asked by Lord Beecham To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans their assessment of the effectiveness of the Privacy they have to improve intra-regional rail transport in and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) the North East of England, and between the North (Amendment) Regulations 2011. [HL2936] East and North West. [HL3114]

Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): While no such The Minister of State, Department for Transport assessment has been made, since these Regulations (Baroness Kramer) (LD): In the spirit of localism, the came into effect on 26 May 2011, the Information Government believes that local authorities and Passenger Commissioner’s Office (ICO) has used its new monetary Transport Executives, working closely with Local penalty powers to issue six substantial monetary penalties Enterprise Partnerships, are best placed to determine totalling £800,000 for breaches of the Privacy and the investment priorities for their areas. Department Electronic Communications Regulations (PECR), in for Transport officials are in regular contact with local relation to unsolicited marketing calls and texts. One authorities in the North East and Tees Valley Unlimited of those penalties was recently overturned on appeal (the Local Enterprise Partnership) to provide advice by the First-Tier Tribunal hearing, and the ICO is on the development of their plans. planning to appeal against this particular decision. Network Rail’s Northern Hub and electrification Additionally, as a result of their enhanced powers, the projects are on schedule to deliver significant connectivity ICO has issued more than 250 third party information improvements between the North East and North notices to communications service providers. West in two phases. In December 2016, services between WA 57 Written Answers[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Written Answers WA 58

Liverpool and Newcastle will use the Chat Moss route As part of the Government’s Spending Review for via Manchester Victoria giving substantial journey 2015-16 the Chancellor has announced a £185 million time reductions. From December 2018 electrification budget increase for the Technology Strategy Board. between Manchester and York will be completed giving The move will enable the Technology Strategy Board further journey time savings. to enhance the role it plays in generating UK economic growth by building on its existing support programmes for innovative UK businesses, and by developing new programmes. Research and Development In addition, we have taken a number of further Question actions which are likely to increase business expenditure Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick on R&D including: the introduction of an Innovation Vouchers programme, additional support to help To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps companies access venture capital, increased investment they are taking to increase investment in research in the Small Business Research Initiative, and the UK and development in the north-east of England. Research Partnership Investment Fund (UK RPIF), [HL2988] which will secure over £1 billion support for the development of new research facilities and partnerships between universities, businesses and charities. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department This wider support also includes £3 million for for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger Newcastle University through HEFCEs (The Higher of Leckie) (Con): The Government is encouraging the Education Funding Council for England) Catalyst increase of research and development (R&D) expenditure Fund to establish the Neptune National Centre for by UK based businesses, including those in the North Subsea and Offshore Engineering. The £7m research East of England through a range of measures, including and development centre will act as a place for industry R&D tax credits and the programmes delivered by the and academia to interact, providing crucial infrastructure Technology Strategy Board. We are also working with for emerging research opportunities. the two Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs) as they develop their smart specialisation strategies for European Structural and Investment funds. Within the North Roads: M4 East LEP this will build upon the work of the North Question East Independent Economic Review, led by Lord Adonis, particularly with their plans for open innovation centres Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon in key areas of the Industrial Strategy. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to R&D Tax Credits are the single largest Government the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 20 June support for business investment in R&D. In the year (WA 77–8), whether they plan to improve the stretch ending March 2011 claims totalled £1.1 billion on of the M4 motorway between junction 3 and the expenditure of £10.9 billion. The rate of tax relief Chiswick Flyover to full motorway standards including available through the SME (Small and Medium a 70 miles per hour speed limit; if so, when; and if Enterprise) R&D tax credit was raised to 225 per cent not, why not. [HL3073] in April 2012, making it among the most competitive regimes in the world, which further incentivises companies to invest in R&D. The Government believes that the The Minister of State, Department for Transport Above the Line credit introduced on 1 April 2013 for (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The Highways Agency currently large companies is effective in influencing R&D investment has no plans to improve the stretch of the M4 Motorway decisions and will help to increase the overall level of between Junction 3 and the Chiswick Flyover to full UK R&D activity. motorway standards including a 70 miles per hour speed limit. The reduced speed limit was introduced in The Technology Strategy Board is the Government’s 1999 due to the geometry of the road, and the reduction prime channel for supporting business-led technology of three lanes to two lanes at the elevated section. innovation. It delivers a range of programmes in support These factors have not changed. of businesses undertaking research and development including Collaborative R&D. Smart and Knowledge Transfer Partnerships. The Technology Strategy Board Roads: Road Safety also provides opportunities for innovative businesses Question through the growing network of Catapult centres— including NAREC. (The National Renewable Energy Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Centre) part of the Offshore Renewable Energy Catapult in Blyth, as well as the Centre for Process Innovation To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much in Wilton and Sedgefield, part of the High Value they spent on promoting the safe use of roads in Manufacturing Technology and Innovation Catapult. 2012–13. [HL3088] Since June 2007 the Technology Strategy Board, with partner and business contributions, has invested The Minister of State, Department for Transport around £2.5 billion in innovation projects across the (Baroness Kramer) (LD): In 2012-13 the central UK. Businesses supported range from pre start-up, Department for Transport spent £3,708,680 on THINK! start-up and early stage micro businesses, to large road safety campaigns. The Vehicle & Operator Services multi-nationals. Agency spent £111,649 supporting the safe use of WA 59 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 60 roads through their communications, providing advice unplanned expenditure both in year and into the future, to operators of heavy goods vehicles, public service NHS England has needed to concentrate its efforts on vehicles, MOT testers and authorised examiners. their core commissioning requirements. The Specialised The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, Driving Services Commissioning Innovation Fund announced Standards Agency, Highways Agency, Vehicle Certification by NHS England in August 2013, sits outside the core Agency, Vehicle and Operator Services Agency all requirements and in October NHS England reluctantly promote safe use of roads through their general operations took the decision to suspend it. NHS England has which is not separately identified as communications advised that it remains committed to both leading and expenditure. facilitating the uptake and spread of innovation and will seek ways to reinstate the fund in future years. NHS England still has a commitment to innovation. Schools: Free Meals Over the last six months it has overseen the establishment Question of 15 Academic Health Science Networks (AHSNs), all of which have agreed a five-year licence framework Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon and objectives which include building a culture of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the partnership and collaboration; promoting inclusivity, proposed scheme to provide free school meals to all addressing local, regional and national priorities; and infants attending schools or nurseries will be creating wealth through co-development, testing, compulsory; if so, whether parents will be prevented evaluation and early adoption and spread of new from supplying their children with packed lunches; products and services. and whether the proposed scheme will apply to In addition, the NHS England Innovation team has children attending private schools. [HL3068] developed support systems to ensure that it works with both the National Health Service and external The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for organisations to enable the faster uptake of innovative Schools (Lord Nash) (Con): By September 2014 all technologies and approaches which promise real benefit state-funded primary schools will be expected to provide to both patients and the frontline NHS, including: free school meals to all pupils in reception, year 1 and - The Regional Innovation Fund—£5 million is year 2 and will be funded to enable them to do so. available this financial year to support the The universal free school meals offer will not apply acceleration and spread of innovation across the to nurseries – entitlement to free school meals for NHS. The aim of this fund is to support front line pupils in nursery classes and at key stages 2–4 will organisations in taking forward service redesign continue as now. It will also not apply to independent using innovative approaches; schools. Parents will not be obliged to take up the offer - Small Business Research Initiative—this of a free school meal, and schools will continue to be programme is led by Eastern AHSN on behalf of free to set their own policies regarding packed lunches, 15 AHSNs and has a £10 million budget; and as is the case now. - Challenge Prizes—NHS England continues to build on positive conversations with industry, with the intention of securing significant sponsorship Specialised Services Commissioning for future rounds of challenges. The Challenge Innovation Fund Prize expert panel, and the NHS England Domain Questions leads, are reviewing options for what should be the next round of challenges. Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Departmental officials have been and continue to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions be in contact with NHS England, so as to be fully they have had with NHS England about the briefed on the rationale behind the decision to suspend cancellation of the Specialised Services Commissioning the fund and next steps. Innovation Fund. [HL2882] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the Transport: Trams and Light Rail suspension of the Specialised Services Commissioning Question Innovation Fund, when the decision was taken to cancel the Fund completely. [HL2883] Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they ensure that innovation in specialised services can be have had any discussions about the building of a maintained in the light of the cancellation of the tram or light railway in the London Borough of Specialised Services Commissioning Innovation Southwark. [HL3119] Fund. [HL2884] The Minister of State, Department for Transport The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department (Baroness Kramer) (LD): Transport funding in London of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): NHS England has advised is a devolved matter for the Mayor and Transport for that the scale of this task—to bring together regional London. No discussions have been held between the commissioning into a single, nationally consistent operating Department for Transport in respect of building a model for specialised services commissioning—has resulted tram or light railway in the London Borough of in a level of unplanned expenditure. To manage this Southwark. WA 61 Written Answers[6 NOVEMBER 2013] Written Answers WA 62

Transport: Transport Authorities Zimbabwe Question Question Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans To ask Her Majesty’s Government what financial they have for Transport Authorities. [HL3120] aid or support the United Kingdom has given, directly or indirectly, to the government of Zimbabwe The Minister of State, Department for Transport since 2010. [HL2757] (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The Government is considering locally developed schemes, under the Local Democracy, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, (Con): It is UK government policy not to put funds to adopt a Combined Authority model of governance directly through the Government of Zimbabwe (GoZ). in four Integrated Transport Authority (ITA) areas. This is due to an assessment that the GoZ lacks Combined Authorities bring together local transport, commitment to the UK’s partnership principles including economic development and regeneration functions into human rights, anti-corruption and domestic accountability. one body. These Combined Authorities require Instead all UK development support is delivered through Government approval and the passage by Parliament multilateral organisations, notably United Nations of a statutory instrument, subject to affirmative resolution agencies, international non-governmental organisations in both Houses. and the private sector.

Wednesday 6 November 2013

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan: Reserve Forces...... 17 Tax Compliance: Cayman Islands...... 20 Aviation: Red Tape Challenge...... 17 Health: Pharmaceutical Pricing Schemes...... 19 Water Quality: Bathing Waters ...... 20

Wednesday 6 November 2013

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Alcohol...... 41 Internet: Violent, Sexual and Sensitive Sites ...... 50 Animals in Scientific Procedures...... 41 London Underground: Bakerloo Line ...... 50 Armed Forces: Aircraft...... 41 Marine Conservation Areas...... 51 Armed Forces: Helicopters ...... 42 NHS: Expenditure ...... 53 Children: Care ...... 42 NHS Property Services Limited...... 51

Children: Child Labour ...... 43 Palestine ...... 54 Deaf and Deafblind People ...... 43 Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 ...... 55 Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act 2003 ...... 43 Railways: Colne ...... 56

Defence: Assistance Fund...... 44 Railways: First Great Western ...... 56

Egypt...... 44 Railways: North East and North West Links...... 56 Research and Development ...... 57 Employment: 18-24 Year-olds...... 45 Roads: M4 ...... 58 Environment: Sea Defences ...... 46 Roads: Road Safety ...... 58 EU: Food...... 47 Schools: Free Meals...... 59 Food: Food Banks ...... 48 Specialised Services Commissioning Innovation Fund ...... 59 Freedom of Information...... 48 Transport: Trams and Light Rail ...... 60 Health: Free Social Care...... 49 Transport: Transport Authorities...... 61 Health: Mental Health...... 49 Zimbabwe...... 62 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL2757] ...... 62 [HL2884] ...... 59

[HL2825] ...... 43 [HL2890] ...... 54

[HL2877] ...... 48 [HL2891] ...... 55

[HL2882] ...... 59 [HL2902] ...... 51

[HL2883] ...... 59 [HL2903] ...... 51 Col. No. Col. No. [HL2904] ...... 51 [HL3029] ...... 41

[HL2923] ...... 50 [HL3040] ...... 56

[HL2936] ...... 55 [HL3041] ...... 46

[HL2962] ...... 44 [HL3058] ...... 51

[HL2963] ...... 49 [HL3068] ...... 59

[HL2964] ...... 49 [HL3072] ...... 47

[HL2965] ...... 49 [HL3073] ...... 58

[HL2973] ...... 49 [HL3086] ...... 42

[HL2976] ...... 53 [HL3088] ...... 58

[HL2977] ...... 53 [HL3091] ...... 48

[HL2979] ...... 41 [HL3097] ...... 45

[HL2983] ...... 41 [HL3098] ...... 45

[HL2988] ...... 57 [HL3099] ...... 45

[HL2992] ...... 42 [HL3100] ...... 41

[HL2993] ...... 42 [HL3114] ...... 56

[HL2994] ...... 42 [HL3116] ...... 56

[HL2995] ...... 42 [HL3118] ...... 50

[HL3004] ...... 43 [HL3119] ...... 60

[HL3005] ...... 43 [HL3120] ...... 61

[HL3015] ...... 44 [HL3122] ...... 43 Volume 749 Wednesday No. 66 6 November 2013

CONTENTS

Wednesday 6 November 2013 Introduction: Lord Allen of Kensington ...... 213 Questions Syria: Refugees...... 213 Carbon Monoxide Detectors...... 215 Nuclear War: International Conference...... 218 Living Wage...... 220 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill Order of Consideration Motion ...... 222 Defence: Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding Statement...... 227 Energy Bill Report (3rd Day)...... 238 Health: Birth Defects Question for Short Debate ...... 284 Energy Bill Report (3rd Day) (Continued) ...... 297 Grand Committee Children and Families Bill Committee (9th Day) ...... GC 61 Written Statements...... WS 17 Written Answers...... WA 4 1