GGGEEEOOORRRGGGIIIAAANNN SSSEEECCCUUURRRIIITTTYYY AAANNNAAALLLYYYSSSIIISSS CCCEEENNNTTTEEERRR INTERVIEW June, 2007

H.E. Donald MacLaren of MacLaren, Ambassador of the of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to

The Georgian Security Analysis Center interviewed H.E. Donald MacLaren of MacLaren, Ambassador of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to Georgia, who will assume new duties at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office this summer. The Ambassador talked about Georgian-UK diplomatic relations, overall UK support to Georgia, particularly in the security sector, the Georgian reform agenda, UK interests in Georgia and the importance of energy security. By Salome Salukvadze

GSAC: Please tell us generally about UK-Georgia relations during your tenure here.

MacLaren: Britain has had a relationship with Georgia going back a very long time. Our first representative, Sir Oliver Wardrop, served here at the beginning of the last century. But in more recent times, I am Britain’s fourth ambassador, and what we have seen over the period is the gradual intensification of the relationship—there has been more substance as each year goes by.

I am Britain’s fourth Times change. The first ambassador here, in the 1990s, ambassador, and what we have was working in the immediate aftermath of the civil war. seen over the period is the That in itself was intense work. Fortunately, today we gradual intensification of the are no longer engaged with the aftermath of destruction, relationship—there has been but are working with the Georgians on helping to more substance as each year implement a dynamic reform agenda. So, my three years goes by. here have been exciting. I think this is a constructive time in the history of this country, and I am pleased to be part of that, along with my colleagues from the European Union and indeed from other embassies.

I think that British-Georgian relations have always been good, very friendly, but of course, foreign policy goes beyond simply nice bilateral relations, particularly nowadays when we live in a very competitive age. As for where we stand now with Georgia, I think both countries understand each other pretty well—Georgians know that we are supportive of their reform agenda, with all this country tries to achieve. They also know that we are partly critical—if we think something could be done differently, we are happy to say so, instead of being silent. That is true for the whole range of issues—security, civil society, rule of law, competition policy in industrial and commercial relationships. Ours is the sort of relationship in which the Georgians will listen to our advice—they may not always implement it, after all, they are in charge. For these reasons, I think we have a healthy intellectual relationship, not just in pleasant bilateral terms. Georgian Security Analysis Center ♦ 3a Chitadze Street, , 0108, Georgia ♦ Tel.: +995 95 567 513 Fax: +995 32 98 52 65, E-mail: [email protected], www.gfsis.org/gsac

In the three years I have been here, we have been very pleased that we have had some senior Georgian visitors coming to —the President has visited twice, in July 2004 and most recently in April of this year. The late Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania visited towards the end of 2004, Prime Minister Noghaideli visited in 2006. We have also had a range of Georgian ministers going to London.

And it has not been just one way. We have also had Going briefly to the visit of the ministers coming from Britain, for example the President Saakashvili, I think this Minister of State for Europe, Geoff Hoon, who used to was particularly significant because be Secretary of State for Defence. He has taken a he and British Prime Minister Tony particularly close interest in Georgia. He is looking at Blair agreed that when you strike all Georgia from two angles—from the security and the details away, it really comes defence side, and particularly nowadays, from the side down to, as the Prime Minister put of Georgia in its wider context, Georgia with its it, values. aspiration to Euro-Atlantic integration.

Going briefly to the visit of the President Saakashvili, I think this was particularly significant because he and British Prime Minister Tony Blair agreed that when you strike all the details away, it really comes down to, as the Prime Minister put it, values. Relations at the practical level are very important—assistance programs, visits, commercial relationships—but values are what really count. Georgia, being a post-Soviet country, has an extraordinarily modern and dynamic agenda, and the progress Georgia has made, and is trying to make to implement its modernising agenda makes us feel that there is great deal of common ground. Being at the highest political level, it was a very important meeting and it sent a signal across a wider field.

GSAC: The UK has also been very supportive in the security field—helping with the International Security Advisory Board (ISAB), helping MOD with the military personnel system and training officers. Could you please give a brief overview of this kind of assistance?

MacLaren: We have really been concentrating on looking for ways to complement Georgian security sector reform. During the last 4-5 years, we have involved ourselves in a number of different areas. English language teaching is particularly important because it helps the compatibility of Georgian officers in their peace support operations abroad. It is not just English for the sake of English—it has a real operational relevance. And we have been involved right down to “boots on the ground,” British soldiers and officers coming to do joint exercises with Georgians—nothing flashy, but it is a part of the training.

Within the Ministry of Defence Then, of course, there is crucial infrastructure, including we have been involved in the very human infrastructure. Within the Ministry of Defence we complex area of Human have been involved in the very complex area of Human Resource management, working Resource management, working alongside our allies, for alongside our allies, for example, example, the Dutch. I think our effort over the last 4-5 the Dutch. years has been very broad-based. We have tried to complement the lines that Georgians themselves have set. These are connected with Georgia becoming operationally capable and compatible with our forces in overseas operations. This is important for Georgia’s NATO aspirations.

As you mentioned, the groundwork was laid by ISAB in giving broad advice to the Georgians. But now, our work is specifically linked to the NATO Individual Partnership Action Plan. It is very good to see Georgians have taken that process seriously because they are still on the way to Georgian Security Analysis Center ♦ 3a Chitadze Street, Tbilisi, 0108, Georgia ♦ Tel.: +995 95 567 513 Fax: +995 32 98 52 65, E-mail: [email protected], www.gfsis.org/gsac MAP (NATO Membership Action Plan). We do not see it as series of isolated bits, but as an integrated whole. A large part of Georgia’s reform effort is to keep implementing what they have learned about standards, requirements and challenges. As they try to make their aspirations reality, we are there to help.

GSAC: during your tenure in Georgia, what has been A different track had to Georgia’s greatest achievement? be taken, a different start had to be made, a MacLaren: I would not put my finger on any single achievement. different set of disciplines I would say that the overall achievement was to make a very clear and activities needed to be assessment of what happened during the 1990s and early 2000s launched, and we have and then to identify the reform agenda. The earlier path was not certainly seen that one for a country that had Euro-Atlantic aspirations. A different launch. track had to be taken, a different start had to be made, a different set of disciplines and activities needed to be launched, and we have certainly seen that launch.

I think this is an achievement because it was not just a flash of anger with the previous regime— revolution, marching into Parliament, promises to people and then collapse. We have seen this government setting out its ideals and objectives in a very coherent way, and then setting its agenda. Then we have seen the government putting things in place. It has not always been one step after another, constant movement forward. Very often it has been one step forward and another step backwards, but we have seen a real determination to implement the agenda.

Of course, any foreign observer is well aware of the areas that can be criticized. There has to be political diversity—oxygen has to be given to debate and to leaders of different poles of thought. I would mention reforming the judiciary, which had been identified early on as a high priority, and in which we put a lot of pressure on the Georgians. There are some sorts of things that I would not think need generations to achieve, things you might do quite quickly. Other things might take a lot longer, but this is not an excuse for any backsliding in this area.

Recently we had a very senior group of Georgian judges, I would mention reforming the including the head of the Georgian Supreme Court, visit judiciary, which had been Britain to see the way we run our justice system. This is identified early on as a high just a small example, but it was not just a visit. We were priority, and in which we put a trying to help them see another system and the way it lot of pressure on the Georgians. works. We don’t say you ought to adopt it completely, but it was exposure to different ideas, and it is just part of the process of trying to contribute.

Comparing Georgia to other transitional countries around the world, many have allowed themselves a much more leisurely pace towards their targets. One thing you can say about Georgia—and sometimes it is criticized for this—is that it does not allow itself a leisurely pace. It hammers its way towards achievements quickly, and that is why sometimes mistakes are made, decisions are launched that may need to be reconsidered later. But the fundamental underpinning is important—there is a dynamism, there is determination, there is willingness to learn. Overall, it is not perfect, but we have seen a lot in the last three years, and that gives hope and reason for optimism that this government is serious and that we will see a lot more to come.

GSAC: What are the UK’s major geopolitical and diplomatic interests in Georgia?

MacLaren: Georgia is the sort of country we would consider to be on our wavelength. We know Georgia is an ally in terms of operations—contributions to peacekeeping operations, Iraq, as well as its offer of troops for Afghanistan. We realize that cooperation with Georgia is important.

Georgian Security Analysis Center ♦ 3a Chitadze Street, Tbilisi, 0108, Georgia ♦ Tel.: +995 95 567 513 Fax: +995 32 98 52 65, E-mail: [email protected], www.gfsis.org/gsac Georgia has made it quite clear that it wants to be a part—and a contributing part, not a beggar— of the Euro-Atlantic group of nations.

Georgia is the sort of Moreover, if you look at Georgia’s position strategically, it is a country we would rather rare country. Georgia can act as a force for stability. This consider to be on our region is traditionally troubled and Georgia is not just looking wavelength. westwards, it is also looking eastwards. What happens in Central Asia in the next years is going to be very interesting. Energy is, of course, very important, but this is not just about energy.

So, for that mixture of reasons, Georgia is not just a small country, far away, struggling with whole bunch of post-civil war problems. It is a country that deserves our attention. I am not talking about philanthropy here. It deserves our attention because it has strategic importance. If Georgia did not succeed, if it failed in some way, that would not be good for our interests. Correspondingly, the more it makes progress, the more we can work collaboratively with Georgians, the better for both of us.

If Georgia did not succeed, if it Our interest here is not about imposing systems or failed in some way, that would not imposing our models of democracy and good governance. be good for our interests. Georgia has made its choice and we find that choice Correspondingly, the more it compatible with how we see a society being run and with makes progress, the more we can the way we see the world. There is a natural partnership work collaboratively with which is being developed and strengthened all the time, Georgians, the better for both of and it is in both sides’ interest for that process to remain us. healthy and strong, and to continue to develop.

GSAC: Talking about energy, how are Georgian-British relations affected by the BTC and South Caucasus pipelines?

MacLaren: These are vital projects. They are important for Britain and for our largest company, but also for energy security, which is a big issue, affecting a much wider range of countries. They are also important in regional terms, as they give an incentive to regional countries to collaborate. Moreover, there is a very strong consumer and supply relationship already well established with Russia, and it makes sense to broaden our energy security portfolio. Georgia and its strategic location offer that opportunity to develop and diversify. There is plenty of prospect for continuing development—the chapter has not closed with the BTC pipeline or with the gas pipeline from Shah Deniz. It is a continuing process and it harms nobody. It is not a question of we win, Russia loses. It is good for everyone that Human warmth makes there should be proper energy security and proper diversity of Georgia so enjoyable, so I supply. think my successor will find that too. Get out of GSAC: Will your successor also be playing bagpipes in the office as much as Tbilisi? possible—travel around, get under the surface of MacLaren: No, but Denis Keefe is a very cultivated and talented the country. When in the man. Unlike me, he is a singer. He has some Irish ancestry, but office, enjoy the issues I don’t think he plays the Irish pipes. His family are singers, and because the stuff we are he has even more children than I do—he has six children. dealing with is really very fascinating.

Georgian Security Analysis Center ♦ 3a Chitadze Street, Tbilisi, 0108, Georgia ♦ Tel.: +995 95 567 513 Fax: +995 32 98 52 65, E-mail: [email protected], www.gfsis.org/gsac GSAC: What advice would you give him?

MacLaren: To enjoy this country—there is a lot to enjoy; there is a lot to see. To enjoy the warmth and the interest of Georgian people. Human warmth makes Georgia so enjoyable, so I think my successor will find that too. Get out of the office as much as possible—travel around, get under the surface of the country. When in the office, enjoy the issues because the stuff we are dealing with is really very fascinating. History is being made in this country and it is a great privilege to be part of it. I think my successor will have a very challenging and exciting time here. I think he will find great rewards by working there.

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Georgian Security Analysis Center ♦ 3a Chitadze Street, Tbilisi, 0108, Georgia ♦ Tel.: +995 95 567 513 Fax: +995 32 98 52 65, E-mail: [email protected], www.gfsis.org/gsac