Tuesday Volume 513 6 July 2010 No. 27

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 6 July 2010

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Marange fields in Zimbabwe are subject to it. In that House of Commons way, diamonds could actually help the economic development of Zimbabwe in future. We would like to Tuesday 6 July 2010 sort that out within the Kimberley process, so that those diamonds can then be used productively.

The House met at half-past Two o’clock Gavin Williamson: What action is my right hon. Friend taking with other African nations to ensure that PRAYERS Zimbabwe adopts a new constitution and ends the endemic corruption within the country?

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr Hague: We work closely with our partners around Africa, foremost among which, of course, is South Africa. We support its efforts and those of President Oral Answers to Questions Zuma to engage closely with Zimbabwe and to push it towards reform. We—the UK and other donors—also support, through the UN development programme, the implementation of the Zimbabwean constitution. Given FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE the concerns that my hon. Friend and others have raised, I should say that that happens not through direct funding of the Zimbabwean Government, but The Secretary of State was asked— through that UN programme. UK-Zimbabwe Relations Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): The Prime Minister will 1. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): What his know that Morgan Tsvangirai was promised by the most recent assessment is of the state of UK-Zimbabwe African Union and SADC that they would honour the relations. [5775] global political agreement and ensure that it worked, but clearly they have not done so. Can we do anything 4. Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): What his most recent more to put pressure on the AU and SADC, without assessment is of the state of UK-Zimbabwe relations. which we will never get the free and fair elections that [5778] will make Zimbabwe once again a flourishing nation?

8. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Mr Hague: We can put diplomatic pressure on those What his most recent assessment is of the state of organisations—that is the leverage we have. The hon. UK-Zimbabwe relations. [5782] Lady may think that that is not substantial enough, but that is what such pressure amounts to—working with The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth those countries, particularly South Africa, and of course Affairs (Mr William Hague): We want to do all that we with reformers in Zimbabwe, to try to ensure that the can to support the aspirations of the Zimbabwean global political agreement is properly respected. The people for a peaceful, prosperous and democratic UK will remain a strong voice for that, but we cannot Zimbabwe. We will work with reformers in Zimbabwe guarantee it on our own. and the region to maximise the prospects for achieving the reforms necessary for properly conducted elections. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): The noble Baroness Laura Sandys: What can the British Government do Ashton, as the EU foreign affairs chief, recently met for British nationals who were born in Zimbabwe whose Zimbabwean Ministers to discuss what she termed human property has been expropriated by the Zimbabwe rights abuses and political development. I understand Government, some of whom live in South Thanet? that a ¤20 million grant is currently being made available to the Zimbabwean authorities as Baroness Ashton Mr Hague: We condemn illegal farm and property seeks to make concrete progress on those political objectives. seizures, which contravene the global political agreement Does the Secretary of State have any idea what concrete and a Southern African Development Community decision, progress means in reality? and which do nothing to advance Zimbabwe’s economy —we should make that very clear. Economic regeneration Mr Hague: I think we can fairly say that concrete in Zimbabwe depends on respect for the rule of law, and progress would be a great deal more than anything that we urge the Zimbabwean Government to respect the is happening at the moment. There have been no noticeable rule of law and to end such seizures. improvements in the human rights situation in Zimbabwe, and we are deeply concerned about harassment and Jessica Lee: In the light of the concerns raised by the politically inspired detentions, which continue in that UN’s Kimberley process into mining diamonds in country.Concrete progress means a lot more than anything Zimbabwe, what measures do the Government have in we have seen so far. place to ensure that conflict diamonds do not make their way into the UK? Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Have Mr Hague: The European Union, including the United our Government any new initiatives or plans for such Kingdom, has called for efforts to reach agreement initiatives to deal with Mugabe’s ruthless regime, under through the Kimberley process so that all mining in the which many people are starving or subject to persecution? 155 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 156

Mr Hague: It is not within the UK’s power alone to approach. In that context, does the Minister agree with deal with Mugabe’s regime. It is possible to do many the Secretary of State for Defence that our troops will things to try to improve the situation, some of which I be the last to leave Afghanistan? mentioned in answer to previous questions, such as working with South Africa and other partners in Africa, Mr Browne rose— supporting the implementation of the constitution with development money—my right hon. Friend the Secretary Mr Speaker: Order. I say this with a degree of trepidation, of State for International Development will continue to but I am not quite sure how the right hon. Gentleman support that while reviewing the situation—and stressing has managed to shoehorn his inquiry in question No. 2. the need for economic progress and the possibility of Could he explain briefly? economic regeneration in Zimbabwe. It is a case of continuing all those things to try to help the situation in David Miliband: As I said, the drive for good governance Zimbabwe rather than introducing one bold new initiative. and against corruption in Afghanistan is a central part of our strategy, and it is combined with military effort. I Human Rights and Democracy Programme Fund am asking a simple question about whether the Minister agrees with the Defence Secretary that our troops will 2. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): be the last to leave Afghanistan. What plans he has for the future of his Department’s strategic programme fund for human rights and Mr Speaker: I am sure that the Minister will wish to democracy. [5776] focus on the programme fund in his reply.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Mr Browne: I will indeed, Mr Speaker. I assure you Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): My right hon. Friend the and all hon. Members that we attach the utmost importance Foreign Secretary announced a 10% reduction this year to human rights and democracy in Afghanistan. in the strategic programme fund for human rights and democracy, as a contribution to reducing public expenditure, David Miliband: I am pleased to hear that. The Minister while making clear our desire to sustain such programmes will know that an important part of the programme in future years. Programme funds are only one way in relates to the development of the peace jirga that was which the British Government uphold human rights, recently held in Afghanistan. The Foreign Secretary which are also a major focus of our overall bilateral and said of President Karzai’s peace jirga that it marked a multilateral diplomatic activity. “comprehensive, inclusive and genuinely representative political process”. Mr Bain: I thank the Minister for that reply, but will He is certainly right that it is important. However, the he go a little further to allay the concerns of right hon. two most internationally respected members of President and hon. Members and say that there will be no further Karzai’s Government—Interior Minister Atmar and reductions in the funds available for this important spy chief Sahel—have resigned because of the failings project, which boosts human rights, democracy and the at that jirga. Will the Minister explain whether the abolition of the death penalty in countries such as Iran, Foreign Secretary met opposition leader Abdullah when China and Russia? he was in Kabul and what he will do to ensure that these funds continue to be used for the vital task of building a Mr Browne: I share all the hon. Gentleman’s objectives, political settlement in Afghanistan? and we wish to minimise the impact of this reduction. We certainly do not seek further reductions. It is worth Mr Browne: We continue to work closely with the making the additional point that programme funds are Afghan Government. On the specific and narrow issue not the only means by which we deliver these policies. of programme funds, I can again reassure the House Our ambassadors and our network of staff around the that our relations with the Afghan Government and our world are delivering these foreign policy objectives for efforts in Afghanistan go way beyond anything that we Britain every single day. are spending on programme funds. It is an absolute central top priority of the British Government. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Earlier this year, the FCO facilitated a visit by Lord Judd and me to Kyrgyz Republic investigate the human rights situation in Chechnya. Sadly, we found evidence of abductions, executions, 3. Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): What recent house burnings and a culture of impunity among the reports he has received on the political situation in the perpetrators. Will my hon. Friend meet me and Lord Kyrgyz Republic; and if he will make a statement. Judd to discuss our report and how the UK may be able [5777] to influence positively the dire human rights situation in Chechnya? 10. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the government of Mr Browne: I would be happy to hold a meeting very the Kyrgyz Republic on the political situation in that soon. country. [5784]

David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): I am happy to The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): Our welcome the hon. Gentleman to his post. ambassador is in regular contact with the authorities in Nowhere is the battle against corruption and for Kyrgyzstan. We are deeply concerned by recent events good governance more important than in Afghanistan, in that country where the situation remains fragile. Both where it is a key part of the combined civilian-military we and our international partners believe that the political 157 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 158 process now under way represents the best chance that National Election Commission (Rwanda) we have to ensure peace, the rule of law and democracy for all the people of Kyrgyzstan. 5. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the Rwandan National Mr David: Clearly, the situation in Kyrgyzstan remains Election Commission on the forthcoming presidential difficult, but does the Minister agree that it is vital that elections in that country. [5779] we have maximum co-operation between the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the United The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Nations and the European Union? and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): We are working with the National Election Commission, Mr Lidington: I agree completely with the hon. encouraging it to implement recommendations of previous Gentleman, and I hope that next week, when I attend EU election observer missions. The recent electoral the OSCE ministerial meeting in Kazakhstan, I will be code addresses most recommendations, but it is important able to talk to colleagues from all those parts of the that the presidential elections in August comply with world about the way forward. international norms. Ann McKechin: I am sure that the Minister will share Mrs Moon: I join the Minister in welcoming the my concerns about the increasing reports of incidents outcome of the 27 June referendum, in which the Kyrgyz of harassment and intimidation of opposition leaders, clearly outlined their desire for a parliamentary republic including the arrest of one of the leaders of the opposition and a new constitution. However, will he join me in party just less than two weeks ago. Will he impress it on calling on President Otunbayeva to reduce tensions the National Election Commission and the Rwandan between the Kurds and Uzbeks by initiating an open Government that such continued reports will stain and transparent inquiry into the killings in Osh and Rwandan’s reputation, which has made much progress Jalalabad, and by releasing the Uzbek human rights in the past decade, and that it is vital that they show real activist Mr Askarov and the journalist Mr Abdusalomov? signs of ensuring that democracy is fully protected? Mr Lidington: It is precisely because the British Mr Bellingham: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for Government accept the need for reconciliation between that constructive question. I share her concern about the different communities in Kyrgyzstan that we the arrest of Victoire Ingabire, who is a prominent co-sponsored a resolution on 18 June, at the UN Human opposition leader, and about the fact that her American Rights Council, calling for a transparent investigation lawyer, Professor Erlinder, was also arrested on what into the events of April and the recent inter-ethnic were basically trumped-up charges. We are also concerned violence, and urging the Kyrgyz authorities to promote that so far just one party outside the ruling coalition inter-ethnic reconciliation as a key priority. has been registered, and we are applying as much pressure as we can. Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): Has high-level corruption in the political system not been Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con) rose— one of the real problems facing Kyrgyzstan since independence? What more can the British Government Mr Speaker: I call Andrew Stephenson—[Interruption.] do, whether through the EU, their own good offices or He is not Andrew Stephenson, but he is very welcome. the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, to promote Let us hear from him. good governance in this important country in central Asia? Stuart Andrew: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Given that top military officials have also been arrested, does my Mr Lidington: We in the United Kingdom have to hon. Friend the Minister see any danger of interference accept that there are practical limits to our ability to put in the elections by the Rwandan army? right all the problems that my hon. Friend has identified. Mr Bellingham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Nevertheless, the British Government will continue to that question. To say that Rwanda has come back from do all within their power, not just bilaterally but through the abyss would be an understatement. We should pay the various multilateral organisations to which we are tribute to the extraordinary progress that Rwanda has party, to bring about reconciliation and a free and made. What we want to do the day after the election is stable democracy in that country. call the new President of Rwanda, congratulate him on his election and say that he has enhanced credibility and Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): I visited trust with the world community by winning a completely the city of Osh eight years ago, and I have to say it was a free and fair election against proper opposition. desperately poor place. The Minister will recall that five years ago, with the Andijan massacre in Uzbekistan, Mr Speaker: My apologies to Stuart Andrew. there were international calls for a full investigation that ultimately came to nothing. Will he reassure us that the Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): Does the Minister calls now for an investigation into the present case will share my concern about the murder of Jean-Léonard lead to fruition and something proper happening? Rugambage, a journalist on the Umuvugizi newspaper—I will pass that name up to Hansard afterwards—who Mr Lidington: I share my hon. Friend’s hope for a was shot on Friday 25 June? Does he agree that having positive reaction on the part of the Kyrgyz authorities free, fair and open newspapers is an essential part of to the resolution at the UN Human Rights Council. I ensuring a civil space where democracy can work, and shall be making that point in my conversations with will he do everything he can to press the Rwandan Kyrgyz and other regional leaders next week. Government to bring that man’s murderers to justice? 159 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 160

Mr Bellingham: We have already made our views being done on the peace process currently, through the clear to the Rwandan Government, and we will continue proximity talks, is being much encouraged by this with that dialogue, putting pressure on them. As I said a Government. moment ago, it is essential that there should be not only a free election, but one with proper opposition and Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): Improving the open and transparent media reporting it. situation in Gaza is crucial to building confidence for direct negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians. Settlement Expansion Will the Minister give a progress report on the implementation of the Israeli Government’s commitment to minimise restrictions on goods and services needed 6. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): for the reconstruction of Gaza? Will he confirm whether What recent discussions he has had with his Israeli any progress has been made on the proposed deployment counterpart on settlement expansion in East Jerusalem of EU troops to assist movement and access into Gaza? and the west bank; and if he will make a statement. Will he also give an indication of what steps Britain and [5780] the EU are taking to secure the release of Gilad Shalit?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Alistair Burt: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): We are in those questions, all of which are pertinent. There has regular contact and dialogue with the Israeli Government, been movement on easing the blockade. Again, one of particularly on matters pertaining to the peace process. the ironies of this dreadful situation is that out of some We remain of the view that the moratorium on settlements tragedy, there might be some movement in the right that is currently in place is the right policy, and we direction. The pressure that has been exerted on Israel continue to urge all parties not to change any facts on in recent times by the EU, this Government, the United the ground which might undermine the peace process. States and the Quartet for a relaxation on the restrictions in Gaza has had an effect. The hon. Gentleman will John Robertson: I thank the Minister for his answer, know that two days ago—I think—the Israelis announced although I am not quite sure exactly what he means. For that they were moving from a list of allowed goods to a those of us who have been over to the west bank and list of banned goods, and that reconstruction materials seen the problems there between the people who will would be allowed through. It remains essential that no not trust those on the other side of the fence, can he tell weapons get through into Gaza and thereby further us exactly what the Government’s policy will be towards destabilise the situation. As he also said, it is crucial the settlements? Will he come out and actually say that that Hamas should release Gilad Shalit as soon as they have to be closed down, and that we have to return possible and unconditionally, because that will be a to the 1967 boundaries? further confidence-building measure of the kind that is so desperately needed for the relief of the people of Alistair Burt: I must say as clearly as possible to the Gaza and the middle east. hon. Gentleman and to the House that we regard the settlement policy as wrong and not in the interests of Mr Speaker: Order. We need shorter answers. the peace process. That is a position that has been made Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Does clear to the Israeli Government over a period of time. It the Minister accept that the moratorium is no substitute is essential, as he mentioned, that confidence measures for the cessation of a policy that is unequivocally contrary are built on both sides. This is an immensely complex to international law, and whose continuance represents process, but there is no doubt that the settlement policy an insurmountable obstacle to the achievement of peace has been seen as a bar to progress in the peace talks. and implies a determination to impose a solution not by We therefore urge that the moratorium on settlements agreement but by attrition? should remain past September, when it is due to come to an end. Alistair Burt: Again, I would say that we must take this step by step. The current position, in which the Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): Does the moratorium has been observed, has been important in Minister agree that land swaps of Israeli territory for allowing space for the proximity talks to take place, and Palestinian territory, which has already been discussed we hope that those talks will advance into further in the past by Israelis and Palestinians, would form, at discussions. I repeat that we believe that the previous the very least, a significant part of a potential solution settlement policy was a barrier to that process, and that to the problem outside East Jerusalem? Does he also we want to see the current moratorium continue. accept, however, that for the two-state solution to work, the proposed Palestinian state must have a high degree Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): of both territorial integrity and economic viability? I recognise the great importance of a settlement freeze, but does the Minister welcome the decision by the Alistair Burt: My right hon. and learned Friend will International Trade Union Confederation to urge closer know better than most—although most of the House working between the Israeli trade unions—the Histadrut— knows as well—that one of the great ironies of the and the Palestinian trade unions, instead of pursuing a situation is that the draft agreement between the two policy of sanctions and divestment? sides is already well enough known. It has been spoken of many times, and land swaps play their part. We Alistair Burt: Yes, I do. The hon. Lady might like to remain of the view that a two-state solution is the thing know that the recent investment conference on the west to be sought, with a universally recognised and secure bank was very successful, and that the Palestinian Authority Israel next to a viable and sovereign Palestine. The work are now seeing real progress in their own economy. 161 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 162

They remain in difficulty, however, as do all the occupied Mr Bellingham: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman territories, and of course none more so than Gaza. for his constructive question, and I agree with him Anything that can be done to stimulate relationships, entirely. We want to get the inquiry out of the way as particularly those relating to trade, with the occupied soon as possible, and the special investigation and territories and the west bank, must be good news. prosecution team is doing a very good job indeed. It is now at full strength, and we very much hope that it will Luke Walker come up with a number of charges in the near future so that we can get closure following these quite appalling 7. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): What recent corruption incidents. discussions he has had with Her Majesty’s consul general in Greece on the case of Mr Luke Walker. Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister [5781] will know that the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs published in its final report in the last Parliament a The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): This is short update on the situation in the Turks and Caicos a tragic case, which I have discussed with officials. Our Islands, and made a number of recommendations. It consular staff in Crete have visited Luke Walker in expressed concern that the timetable for an election in detention, and they are providing him and his family 2011 might be too early, given that these possible with ongoing assistance. prosecutions might not have been concluded by that time. Are the Government giving consideration to that Margot James: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. timetable, and are they prepared to look again at their Photographs and papers promised by the court in Crete current approach? to Luke Walker and his family, which are legitimately required by the UK coroner, are being subject to Mr Bellingham: We are certainly looking carefully at unacceptable delays. Does my hon. Friend agree that those particular points. I agree with the hon. Gentleman the reluctance of the Greek Interior Department to that we want to avoid the danger of re-electing politicians co-operate with UK coroners in general might be involved in corruption. That is why the matter is under contributing to these delays? Can he assure my constituent, review. We are looking carefully at the work of the who has now been in prison for 66 days, that all possible Turks and Caicos Islands Government, and we will steps are being taken to resolve these matters? report back to the House on progress in due course.

Mr Lidington: In the case of Luke Walker, consular Work Programme (European Commission) officials in my Department are doing everything they can to expedite the process, within the limits placed on us by our inability to interfere in the judicial processes 11. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): of other countries. On my hon. Friend’s more general When he next expects to discuss the European point, the Foreign Office has established, together with Commission’s work programme for 2011 in the General the Ministry of Justice and the Greek Ministry of Affairs Council. [5785] Justice, a working party that will look at the problem that she has identified—namely, how to ensure that The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): The important case documents are shared between the different European Commission will publish its work programme jurisdictions. for 2011 towards the end of this year, and I will ask the presidency to table a discussion of it at the following Turks and Caicos Islands General Affairs Council. I am also looking forward to a debate in Westminster Hall on the Commission’s 2010 9. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) work programme. (Lab/Co-op): What recent discussions he has had on governance of the Turks and Caicos Islands; and if he Miss McIntosh: Is the Minister aware that the will make a statement. [5783] Commission is agreeing a Green Paper on pensions imminently, which will presumably form part of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign work programme for next year? There is an issue about and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): I those who are self-employed and those who are employed have held a number of discussions about the situation in working in different member states that needs to be the Turks and Caicos Islands, including with my right addressed. The Green Paper does not address that, hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for however, but other issues such as having a one-size-fits-all International Development. Yesterday, I met our Governor, for pensions, which is not acceptable. Will the Minister and last week I met a delegation from the Turks and press for the correct law to be in place, not one that we Caicos Islands. The Foreign Secretary, other Ministers could do without? and I all want to see the Government restored as soon as possible. The Governor—fully supported by the UK—is Mr Lidington: I can assure my hon. Friend that not working hard to restore key elements of good governance just I, but my hon. Friends in the Department for Work and sound public financial management. and Pensions will press to make sure that any proposals suit the interests of the United Kingdom. When the Tom Greatrex: I thank the Minister for that reply. Green Paper is published, it will, of course, be subject May I urge him and his Department to do whatever to parliamentary scrutiny in its own right. they properly can to influence the inquiry that is going on in the Turks and Caicos Islands, and to ensure that Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): One element of the the people of those islands are able to take part in free Commission’s work programme is the implementation and fair democratic elections as soon as possible? of treaty change. Will he confirm that the Prime Minister 163 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 164 agreed at the June European Council to a special Richard Ottaway: I welcome the fact that the European intergovernmental conference, but has yet to notify this Union has decided to go further than United Nations House of that matter? That meeting has already taken resolution 1929 in imposing sanctions on Iran, especially place. Will he also confirm whether the Prime Minister, in the oil and gas sector where it is particularly vulnerable. or the British representatives at that intergovernmental Does my right hon. Friend agree, however, that sanctions conference suggested the repatriation of any powers alone will not solve the problems of Iran’s nuclear from the European Union to the UK? facility? Following his twin-track approach, what efforts is he making to broker a deal? Mr Lidington: I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman has been dozing a bit. If he had looked at the Order Paper Mr Hague: I welcome my hon. Friend’s welcome for this morning, he would have seen a written statement the statements of the European Union and the European about the transitionary protocol on the composition of Council last month. My right hon. Friend the Prime the European Parliament. It is hardly a secret, given Minister was party to them, and we are now working in that this matter has more than once been referred to on detail with EU partners on what that will mean in terms this side of the House in debates about Europe and of specific sanctions. I hope that those will be agreed foreign policy since this Parliament first convened. The at the next meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council on proposed small treaty amendment does not involve any 26 July. transfer of powers from the United Kingdom to Brussels As for the other part of the twin track to which my institutions. hon. Friend rightly referred, we remain open to negotiations. The EU High Representative, Lady Ashton, has made it Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly clear—along with many of the Foreign Ministers well that I have read the written ministerial statement involved—that we remain open to negotiations about because I tabled an urgent question about it earlier this Iran’s whole nuclear programme, and that we look to morning and I am sure that he was consulted on the Iran to enter into such negotiations and co-operate fully matter. However, let me raise another matter that arises with the International Atomic Energy Authority. It has from the Commission’s work programme—trade with not been prepared to do those things so far. Latin America. The Minister knows that Labour Members support a free trade agreement with Peru and Colombia, Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I welcome but we know that there are very significant human the Foreign Secretary’s robust stance on Iran, but it is a rights abuses in Latin America, which is why it is crime against the United Nations genocide convention important that the text of the trade agreement deals not to incite genocide as well as to commit it. President just with trade issues. Will he make sure that this is Ahmadinejad has called for the wiping of Israel off the ratified not just by the Commission, the European map of the world. That generally means the extermination Council or by Europe, but by each member state so that of its people. Will the Foreign Secretary consider taking we in this House have a chance to vote on that trade to the United Nations and the International Criminal agreement? Court an indictment against President Ahmadinejad for his incitement to the genocide of the Jewish people Mr Speaker: Order. Before the Minister answers, let in the middle east? me say for the record that no reference should be made on the Floor of the House to the fact of an urgent Mr Speaker: Order. I am sure that the Foreign Secretary question having been tabled. I say that gently. is being asked to do that in the context of discussions with his EU counterparts, and in respect of EU policy. Mr Lidington: There will be an opportunity for the [Interruption.] Order. I do not think that I need to hear House to debate the free trade agreement to which the any more. [Interruption.] Order. I do not need to hear hon. Gentleman referred. The Government’s view, as he any more. knows, is that it is important for the EU to continue to champion free trade agreements with Latin American Mr Hague: That is not something that we have discussed countries and those in many other parts of the world. in the European Union, because our attention has been He will also know that it is normal procedure for any so focused on the Iranian nuclear issue. I hope that the EU free trade agreement to include a significant clause right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I say that, while on human rights. I entirely share his sentiments about some of the statements from the President of Iran, I think it right for us to Nuclear Programme (Iran) concentrate on developing a strong set of sanctions on the nuclear programme and repeating to Iran that it is 12. Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): What time to negotiate about that programme. Those things recent discussions he has had with his EU counterparts are so important that I do not think we should let on the EU’s policy on Iran’s nuclear programme; and if anything else get in the way. he will make a statement. [5786] Middle East The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): I am in regular close 13. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) contact with key EU partners to ensure that the EU (LD): What his foreign policy priorities are for the makes clear, through a strong set of sanctions, including middle east area. [5788] and additional to those agreed in UN Security Council resolution 1929, that Iran cannot ignore its international The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth obligations. Tough EU sanctions will show that the EU Affairs (Mr William Hague): Strengthening the United is determined to play its part in resolving this issue. Kingdom’s relations with the countries of the middle 165 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 166 east as part of a distinctive British foreign policy is one Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): What of the highest foreign-policy priorities of this Government. representations has the Foreign Secretary made to the We will work to promote a two-state solution to the Government of Israel about the thousands of Palestinians Arab-Israeli conflict, and will press for firm diplomacy in East Jerusalem who have their citizenship withdrawn to resolve international concerns about Iran. We will every year, about the hundreds who are expelled from remain engaged in Iraq, and will help to build stability the city and, in particular, about the four Palestinian in Yemen. MPs resident in Jerusalem who are due to be expelled this weekend? Simon Hughes: I thank my right hon. Friend for his encouraging answer. Mr Hague: That is the sort of issue that we want to Six years ago this week, the International Court of resolve. Given that the hon. Gentleman has raised it, I Justice ruled that the wall being built by Israel was will have a particular look at that and see whether there illegal and ought to come down. Will my right hon. are additional representations that we need to make Friend make it absolutely clear, while consistent with over the coming few days. When these things happen, supporting a continued safe state of Israel and a state they are unacceptable and they show that we must put for Palestine, that Israel must understand that international as much momentum as possible behind our efforts to law is for all, not some, to obey? broker peace in the middle east. That is why it is such a priority for the Government. I will certainly look to Mr Hague: It is for all to obey—that is absolutely see whether we can do any more about the point that right—and, of course, we support a two-state solution he makes. created by negotiation and confidence-building on both sides, rather than the creation of facts on the ground EU Enlargement that are intended to change the shape of such a solution ultimately. We are very committed to that, as the Under- 14. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) has already prospects for enlargement of the European Union; and explained. I am in constant touch with Senator George if he will make a statement. [5789] Mitchell, who is working hard in trying to turn proximity talks into direct talks. The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): We Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op): What action strongly support further enlargement of the European is the Foreign Office taking to ensure that there is a full, Union but also believe that countries that want to join independent, international inquiry into the appalling must clearly meet the membership criteria. We welcome Israeli attack on the freedom flotilla? Does the Foreign the progress made during the Spanish EU presidency, Secretary agree that an internal Israeli investigation including the decision to open negotiations with Iceland, alone is simply not acceptable? and the progress on accession negotiations with both Croatia and Turkey. Mr Hague: The hon. Lady may recall my statement to the House on 2 June, when I explained our policy Gordon Henderson: Rather than encouraging an that there should be a credible, independent, prompt enlargement of the EU, will the coalition Government and thorough inquiry. That remains the position of Her consider helping to reduce its size by holding a referendum Majesty’s Government. The United Nations Secretary- that would allow the British people the opportunity to General proposed an international inquiry, which would decide whether we remain a member of the EU? have been a good thing to do. The Israeli Government have decided to set up an inquiry, but with an international Mr Lidington: The Government believe that British presence. We may not consider such an inquiry ideal, membership of the EU is very much in the national but we should hold Israel to conducting it in an independent interests of the UK, and—[Interruption.] and thorough manner, and should judge it according to the way in which it proceeds. Mr Speaker: Order. Can I just say to the shadow Minister for Europe that I want to hear my constituency Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): neighbour? The previous Government apportioned more than £1 million to the Government of Yemen to help with Mr Lidington: Thank you, Mr Speaker. We believe counter-terrorism. Will my right hon. Friend be able to that EU enlargement, which has been championed by update us on how that money has been spent and on the the Governments of Margaret Thatcher and John Major, progress that has been made in the country? as well as by the Labour Governments of Tony Blair and the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Mr Hague: That is important. It is the sort of funding (Mr Brown), has entrenched democracy, human rights that is continuing under the current Government. Working and the rule of law in central and eastern Europe in a with Yemen on countering terrorism and to stress that way that was not achieved throughout the 20th century. political reform is needed by the Government of Yemen is an important part of our work. The Under-Secretary Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Three of State, my hon. Friend the Member for North East months ago, air traffic was brought to a standstill Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), has already been to Yemen throughout the EU because of the Icelandic ash cloud. to see the situation for himself so that we can make our What appraisal has been made of the work of the own decisions about these things in the coming months, Foreign and Commonwealth Office and of the services but that sort of support will continue. given to travellers during that period? 167 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 168

Mr Lidington: The matter that the hon. Gentleman disincentives in respect of those countries pushing forward has raised relates very much to the work of our consular with further reform, so that their welcome into the department rather than to the enlargement process, but family of European nations can be given as soon as I will take advice from consular officials and write to possible. him about the detailed matter that he has raised. Topical Questions Forced Labour (Brazil) T1. [5800] Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): 15. Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): What recent If he will make a statement on his departmental representations he has made to the Government of Brazil responsibilities. in support of their efforts to end forced labour. [5790] The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to inform the House Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): During Brazil’s most recent that the Turkish Foreign Minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, UN universal periodic review, the British Government will visit London this week at my invitation for a full recommended that Brazil invest more rigour in the day of talks. His visit is a sign of the Government’s application of a range of human rights initiatives, including determination to elevate Britain’s links with key partners. on forced labour. Brazil accepted that recommendation Turkey is a crucial NATO ally, it is Europe’s largest and has made progress. Following the UN special emerging economy and it is a major player in the middle rapporteur’s May 2010 report on forced labour in Brazil, east and the western Balkans. We support Turkey’s we will continue to work with the Government of Brazil aspirations to EU membership and we want to work to raise awareness of these issues and to promote with its Government on new approaches to the western compliance with international commitments. Balkans, on peace and security in the wider middle east and on bridging the differences between east and west. Mr Sanders: I thank the Minister for that answer. We like to think that slavery has been abolished, but we Meg Munn: I thank the Foreign Secretary for his need to do more to encourage the Brazilian Government answer. He will be aware that the Spanish Foreign to sign up to the ethical trading initiative, so that fewer Minister is due to visit Cuba to increase the pressure for people are enslaved in that part of the world. the release of its political prisoners. Can the Foreign Secretary update the House on what the Government Mr Browne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the are doing to put pressure on the Cuban authorities to question. Many hon. Members may not be aware that release non-violent political prisoners, who have been Brazil became the last nation in the western hemisphere held in jail for far too long? to abolish slavery formally, doing so in 1888. The International Labour Organisation estimates that about Mr Hague: That pressure comes from the whole 25,000 to 40,000 workers in Brazil are in conditions European Union. We discussed the position in Cuba at analogous to slavery. President Lula has, since his election the Foreign Affairs Council in Luxembourg on 14 June, in 2002, made considerable progress and given priority so the message that we seek the release of political to this issue. I hope and believe that Brazil will continue prisoners in Cuba if we are to start improving relations to do more in the years ahead. with Cuba in other ways goes out unequivocally from the whole European Union. High Representative (Bosnia and Herzegovina) T2. [5801] Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): 16. Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): What Does the Foreign Secretary accept that it is not recent discussions he has had on the future of the Office satisfactory for estimates of how long it will take us to of the High Representative in Bosnia and Herzegovina; secure our strategic interests in Afghanistan to vary and if he will make a statement. [5791] from 40 years in 2009 to four years in 2010? Does he accept that if this circle is to be squared, we will need to The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): The have fresh thinking about an alternative strategy that Peace Implementation Council, which met in Sarajevo could actually secure our important strategic interests at the end of June, discussed progress towards the in the area? conditions necessary for the closure of the Office of the High Representative but, as those had not been met, no Mr Hague: It is very important that we ensure that decision on closure was taken. the current strategy succeeds. As my hon. Friend knows, this strategy involves 46 nations in Afghanistan and the Mr Holloway: What discussions has my hon. Friend United Kingdom is strongly committed to it. It goes had with his EU counterparts on the future accession of alongside building up the capacity of the Afghan state, Balkan states to the EU? and I shall be going to the Kabul conference in a couple of weeks’ time to make our contribution to that. As he Mr Lidington: Both my right hon. Friend the Foreign will know, the Prime Minister is very clear that there Secretary and I have raised during, I believe, every will not be British troops in a combat role or in significant bilateral conversation we have had with European numbers in Afghanistan in five years’ time, but we counterparts and at formal sessions of the Foreign believe that that is part of an internationally agreed Affairs Council the importance that we accord political objective. The G8 meeting in Canada in June sent a and constitutional progress in the western Balkans and collective signal that we want Afghan security forces the need for the EU to make as one of its highest to assume increasing responsibility for security within priorities the strengthening of both the incentives and five years. 169 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 170

David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): The Foreign trade agreements between the European Union and the Secretary knows that the previous Government won rest of the world. So the coalition Government will United Nations support for an arms trade treaty to apply themselves energetically to that task. establish minimum standards on all conventional arms sales. Thousands of people, including hundreds of UN T4. [5803] Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Now that peacekeepers, die every year because this trade is not Hezbollah, the Taliban and Iran are all expanding their properly regulated. The next round of negotiations broadcast services, would it not be inconceivable to cut starts on 12 July, as I am sure he knows. In opposition the meagre grant in aid to the BBC World Service, he said that he supported us on this, so can he explain which could lead to the cancellation of a new Urdu why the coalition agreement dilutes this commitment to service in Pakistan? Is not the World Service a partial restriction to sales “to dangerous regimes”, independent, authoritative, trusted, respected and a far rather than a global standard? Is this a distinctive better way of winning hearts and minds than bombs British foreign policy or the same old Tories? and bullets?

Mr Hague: We will be a united coalition on this, as on Mr Hague: I agree with much of the last part of the all other subjects. I stand by everything I have said hon. Gentleman’s question. I would not say that the about the arms trade treaty, and we will be taking an grant is meagre—£229 million of taxpayers’ money. I energetic and supportive part in those negotiations do not know what he calls meagre, but it is a little more from 12 July. We very much support that treaty. than meagre. It is important that the BBC World Service is able to maintain a presence around the world. I often T5. [5804] Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): think of its crucial role in our soft power, which is what Can my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary update the hon. Gentleman is talking about. That is not to say, the House on the measures that the Government are however, that that grant can never be varied or that the taking with regard to our economic development work service can never make efficiencies. There will, of course, with Pakistan? be great pressure across the whole of the public sector for that to happen. Mr Hague: Yes. The International Development Secretary, who will also speak about this, visited Pakistan Several hon. Members rose— before my visit earlier in June. He announced a four-year programme of £665 million of British aid for Pakistan. Mr Speaker: Order. Several more colleagues want to A huge amount of that is dedicated to education— get in. I remind Members that short questions are £250 million. Pakistan has literacy rates of only about needed. I would also say to those on the Treasury Bench 50% and raising the quality of education is critical to its that the one-word answer yes or no is not disorderly. economic development. T7. [5806] Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): Last T3. [5802] Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Like the ministerial team, I welcome the recent easing week the Secretary of State stated his intention to of the blockade in Gaza, but what specific reassurances establish a National Security Council. Will he explain has the Foreign Secretary received from the Israeli to the House what its remit might be? Government that those within Gaza who need to travel outside for medical treatment, including children and Hon. Members: Yes. elderly and disabled people, will receive unrestricted access out of Gaza? Mr Hague: What if I said no, Mr. Speaker? The National Security Council was established by my right Mr Hague: We have not yet received specific assurances hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the day we took on that, but the hon. Lady is right to raise the issue. It is office, and it started proceedings on that day to ensure one of the things that we want to see happen. It should that within the Government we look at all issues of be possible for goods and exports to leave Gaza, but it international relations and national security in the round. should also be possible for people such as she describes It had its ninth meeting earlier today, so my hon. Friend and others to move freely in and out of Gaza. So that is can see how active it is. What I was explaining last week one of the things that we will continue to press on the was the part that the council plays in elevating key Israeli Government. bilateral relations around the world.

T6. [5805] James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): Regis) (Con): Does the Secretary of State agree with me What discussions has the Foreign Secretary had with that part of protecting Britain’s national interests is that the Government of Pakistan about the murder on 28 May Britain should develop relationships with emerging of some 98 Ahmadiyya Muslims in two mosques in economies to promote new export markets, which will Lahore; and will he make special reference to the position be of great benefit to the small and medium-sized of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan today? manufacturing businesses in my constituency? Mr Hague: Yes, of course I discussed that with Ministers Mr Hague: I agree with my hon. Friend. As he will throughout the Pakistan Government when I visited have noticed, this is a key part of our approach to that country two weeks ago. We absolutely the deplore foreign policy. It requires the FCO to be still more the atrocities that took place in Lahore, about which I commercial and economic in its orientation. It is a was able to hear quite a lot during my visit. Our views critical part of our job to promote investment in Britain on the matter are well known. Our efforts to improve and British trade overseas. It is also a critical part of stability in Pakistan are linked with the development our work to encourage the conclusion of more free effort I talked about earlier, and those efforts will continue. 171 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 172

T8. [5807] Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): T10. [5809] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What What alternative arrangements are being made to lessons for operations in Afghanistan may be learned from ensure that an inter-parliamentary scrutiny role is the case of Bill Shaw? I beg your indulgence, Mr Speaker, carried out in future, which is currently carried out by in paying the highest of tributes to the Minister responsible the European Security and Defence Assembly? What is for the middle east and to Afghanistan and the FCO being done to make sure that that vacuum is not filled officials who worked so hard to ensure that justice was by the European Parliament? done in Afghanistan in that case.

The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign hon. Friend is right to identify that need. We are considering and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): Iamvery a number of options for scrutiny involving different grateful to my hon. Friend for such generous comments. national Parliaments. We will bring in our proposals for I think the lessons to be learned are about the importance, debate by the House as soon as we are able to do so. in building up the Afghan state, of our commitment to the values and the rule of law and to ensuring that there is an anti-corruption policy in place, which we can rely Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I on the Afghan authorities to administer. Our consular have a specific question about a former constituent of service worked extremely hard in the circumstances to mine, Matthew Cryer, who, aged only 18, was unlawfully support Mr Shaw and his family, and I am pleased that killed on the island of Zante in Greece. What are the that work appears at this stage to have been successful. consular services doing to ensure that bereaved families Like the family, we hope to see Mr Shaw home very soon. in the UK get the justice in Greece that they deserve? Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Today, Her Majesty Mr Lidington: I would be happy to discuss that case the Queen addresses the United Nations General Assembly further with the hon. Lady, if she would find that as the Head of State of 15 independent countries. Will helpful. What I hope the working group of the UK and the Foreign Secretary confirm that that arrangement Greek Ministries of Justice and the Foreign and involves co-operation between 15 realms, showing that Commonwealth Office will achieve is to make it much it is an attractive, workable model for normal nations easier to transfer evidence from one jurisdiction to within the Commonwealth? another, so that fair and swift trials become the norm. Mr Hague: Yes, Her Majesty has been very proud to T9. [5808] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) address the United Nations on the part of so many (Con): Will my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary different realms, but that does not mean that the rest of please inform the House of the next option for Her us have started to agree that breaking up individual Majesty’s Government when sanctions against Iran fail? realms is a good idea, so we will continue to oppose the hon. Gentleman on that. Mr Hague: As I explained earlier, sanctions are part of a twin-track approach in which the peaceful and Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): How legitimate pressure on Iran of sanctions is intensified, will the Foreign Secretary assist Mr Netanyahu to resist but we remain open to negotiations about the whole of demands from within his own Government for the Iran’s nuclear programme. Although we have never as a building of illegal settlements to recommence by September? Government ruled out military action or supporting any military action in future, we are most definitely not Mr Hague: We have to continue to try to convince the calling for that at this time, nor advocating it. It is Israeli Government—my right hon. Friend the Prime precisely to avoid conflict that we want the situation Minister and I have been active in that already—that it to be resolved peacefully, through sanctions and is fundamentally in the interests of Israel to do everything negotiation. that it can to secure a two-state solution, that time for that might be running out, and that such a solution is in the interests of Israel’s long-term security. Winning that Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland argument is very important, and we will continue to try West) (Lab): What effect does the Secretary of State to win it. think the recent cuts to the Chevening scholarships will have on Britain’s reputation abroad, especially given David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): Given that a great what I have just heard about placements being cut for deal of the credit for the steady if unheralded progress candidates who had given up other scholarships or, on economic and security issues on the west bank, in indeed, work? I have written to the right hon. Gentleman such matters as the dismantling of blockades, belongs about this. Will he reconsider the decision for those who to British military officers and former police officers, had already accepted placements? who have played a very important role there, will the Foreign Secretary reassure the House that the Government Mr Hague: I will look at the hon. Lady’s letter, remain committed to supporting the work of our armed although I do not think the decision should affect forces and former police officers on the west bank, as anyone currently going through the Chevening scholarship well as, of course, the excellent work of Tony Blair? process. It is of course a great pity to have to make any such reduction, and I do not do it lightly, but we have to Mr Hague: Yes, very much, indeed. I never thought remember that we have inherited, across all Departments, that I would say in this House that I support the a situation in which the Government of this country excellent work of Tony Blair, but I do. I have had many were borrowing £3 billion a week and all Departments phone conversations with him over the past few weeks, have to play their role in trying to sort that out. and a meeting with him last Friday, about Gaza and 173 Oral Answers6 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 174 building up Palestinian institutions. He is doing a very progress has been made on the west bank, and good job on that—notwithstanding all our disagreements economic progress, which shows the signs that it is in the past. possible to have a functioning state, is a very important We will of course continue to support the wider work component of driving forward the middle east peace to which the hon. Gentleman refers. A great deal of process. 175 6 JULY 2010 Treatment of Detainees 176

Treatment of Detainees However, to do that, we need to resolve the issues of the past. While there is no evidence that any British 3.32 pm officer was directly engaged in torture in the aftermath The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure of 9/11, there are questions over the degree to which that the whole House will wish to join me in paying British officers were working with foreign security services tribute to the Royal Marine who died on Thursday, the who were treating detainees in ways they should not soldier from the Royal Dragoon Guards who died yesterday, have done. About a dozen cases have been brought in and the soldier from 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment court about the actions of UK personnel—including, who died from wounds sustained in Afghanistan in for example, that since 9/11 they may have witnessed Birmingham yesterday. We should constantly remember mistreatment such as the use of hoods and shackles. the service and the sacrifices made on our behalf by our This has led to accusations that Britain may have been armed forces and their families, keep them in our thoughts complicit in the mistreatment of detainees. The longer and prayers and thank them for what they do on our these questions remain unanswered, the bigger will grow behalf. the stain on our reputation as a country that believes in With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a freedom, fairness and human rights. statement on our intelligence services and allegations That is why I am determined to get to the bottom of made about the treatment of detainees. For the past few what happened. The intelligence services are also keen years, the reputation of our security services has been publicly to establish their principles and integrity. So we overshadowed by allegations about their involvement in will have a single, authoritative examination of all these the treatment of detainees held by other countries. issues. We cannot start that inquiry while criminal Some of those detainees allege that they were mistreated investigations are ongoing, and it is not feasible to start by those countries. Other allegations have also been it while so many civil law suits remain unresolved. So we made about the UK’s involvement in the rendition of want to do everything that we can to help that process detainees in the aftermath of 9/11. Those allegations along. That is why we are committed to mediation with are not proven, but today we face a totally unacceptable those who have brought civil claims about their detention situation. Our services are paralysed by paperwork as in Guantanamo. And wherever appropriate, we will they try to defend themselves in lengthy court cases offer compensation. with uncertain rules. Our reputation as a country that As soon as we have made enough progress, an believes in human rights, justice, fairness and the rule of independent inquiry, led by a judge, will be held. It will law—indeed, much of what the services exist to protect— look at whether Britain was implicated in the improper risks being tarnished. Public confidence is being eroded, treatment of detainees, held by other countries, that with people doubting the ability of our services to may have occurred in the aftermath of 9/11. The inquiry protect us and questioning the rules under which they will need to look at the relevant Government Departments operate. And terrorists and extremists are able to exploit and intelligence services. Should we have realised sooner those allegations for their own propaganda. that what foreign agencies were doing may have been I myself, the Deputy Prime Minister and the coalition unacceptable and that we should not have been associated Government all believe that it is time to clear up this with it? Did we allow our own high standards to slip, matter once and for all, so today I want to set out how either systemically or individually? Did we give clear we will deal with the problems of the past, how we will enough guidance to officers in the field? Was information sort out the future and, crucially, how we can make sure flowing quickly enough from officers on the ground to that the security services are able to get on and do their the intelligence services and then on to Ministers, so job to keep us safe. But first, let us be clear about the that we knew what was going on and what our response work that they do. I believe that we have the finest should have been? intelligence services in the world. In the past, it was the We should not be for one moment naive or starry-eyed intelligence services that cracked the secrets of Enigma about the circumstances under which our security services and helped deliver victory in world war two. They were working in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. There recruited Russian spies such as Gordievsky and Mitrokhin, was a real danger that terrorists could get their hands and kept Britain safe in the cold war. They helped on a dirty bomb, chemical or biological weapons, or disrupt the Provisional IRA in the 1980s and 1990s. even worse. Threat levels had been transformed. The Today, these tremendous acts of bravery continue. urgency with which we needed to protect our citizens Every day, intelligence officers track terrorist threats was pressing. But let me state clearly that we need to and disrupt plots. They prevent the world’s most dangerous know the answers, if things went wrong, why, and what weapons from falling into the hands of the world’s most we must do to uphold the standards that people expect. dangerous states. And they give our forces in Afghanistan I have asked the right hon. Sir Peter Gibson, former the information that they need to take key decisions. senior Court of Appeal judge and currently the statutory They do this without any public—or, often, even private— commissioner for the intelligence services, to lead the recognition, and despite the massive personal risks to inquiry. The three-member inquiry team will also include their safety. Dame Janet Paraskeva, head of the Civil Service We should never forget that some officers have died Commissioners, and Peter Riddell, former journalist for this country. Their names are not known; their loved and senior fellow at the Institute for Government. ones must mourn in secret. The service that they have I have today made public a letter to the inquiry chair given to our country is not publicly recognised. We owe setting out what the inquiry will cover, so Sir Peter them, and every intelligence officer in our country, an Gibson can finalise the details with us before it starts. enormous debt of gratitude. As Minister for the intelligence We hope that it will start before the end of this year and services, I am determined to do everything possible to report within a year. This inquiry cannot and will not help them get on with the job that they trained to do be costly or open-ended; that would serve neither the and that we desperately need them to do. interests of justice nor national security. Neither can it 177 Treatment of Detainees6 JULY 2010 Treatment of Detainees 178 be a full public inquiry. Of course, some of its hearings appointed my right hon. and learned Friend the Member will be in public. However, we must be realistic; inquiries for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) as the Chair of into our intelligence services are not like other inquiries. that Committee for the duration of this Parliament. Some information must be kept secret—information As we meet in the relative safety of this House today, about sources, capabilities and partnerships. Let us be let us not forget this: as we speak, al-Qaeda operatives frank: it is not possible to have a full public inquiry into in Yemen are meeting in secret to plot attacks against something that is meant to be secret. So any intelligence us; terrorists are preparing to attack our forces in material provided to the inquiry panel will not be made Afghanistan; the Real IRA is planning its next strike public, and nor will intelligence officers be asked to give against security forces in Northern Ireland; and rogue evidence in public. regimes are still trying to acquire nuclear weapons. At But that does not mean we cannot get to the bottom the same time, men and women, young and old, all of of what happened. The inquiry will be able to look at all them loyal and dedicated, are getting ready to work the information relevant to its work, including secret again around the world. They will be meeting sources, information; it will have access to all relevant Government translating documents, listening in on conversations, papers, including those held by the intelligence services; replaying CCTV footage, installing cameras, following and it will be able to take evidence—in public—including terrorists—all to keep us safe from these threats. We from those who have brought accusations against the cannot have their work impeded by these allegations, Government, and their representatives and interest groups. and we need to restore Britain’s moral leadership in the Importantly, the head of the civil service and the intelligence world. That is why we are determined to clear things up, services will ensure that the inquiry gets the full co-operation and why I commend this statement to the House. it needs from Departments and agencies. So I am confident Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): the inquiry will reach an authoritative view on the May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the actions of the state and our services, and make proper Royal Marine who died on Thursday, the soldier from recommendations for the future. the Royal Dragoon Guards who died yesterday, and the Just as we are determined to resolve the problems of soldier from 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment, who the past, so we are determined to have greater clarity died from wounds sustained in Afghanistan yesterday? about what is and what is not acceptable in the future. Our thoughts are with their grieving families. That is why today we are also publishing the guidance I am grateful to the Prime Minister for his statement. issued to intelligence and military personnel on how to The use of torture is morally abhorrent and has no deal with detainees held by other countries. The previous place in this country or in any civilised society. It is Government had promised to do this, but did not, and against our law in this country, and indeed it is one of we are doing it today. It makes clear the following: first, only a small number of offences that can be brought to our services must never take any action where they court in this country no matter where in the world the know or believe that torture will occur; secondly, if they offence was committed. It is a grave crime against become aware of abuses by other countries, they should humanity, and its prohibition is embodied in international report it to the UK Government so we can try to stop it; law. There must be no hiding place for those who and thirdly, in cases where our services believe that practise it and no excuse for those who turn a blind eye there may be information crucial to saving lives but to it. The United Kingdom should always be at the where there may also be a serious risk of mistreatment, forefront of international efforts to detect and expose it is for Ministers, rightly, to determine the action, if torture and to bring those responsible for it to justice. any, that our services should take. My right hon. Friends To play our part in leading the world, we must lead by the Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary and Defence example. Secretary have also today laid in the House further I reiterate our condemnation of the US Guantanamo information about their roles in those difficult cases. detention centre. It is clearly in breach of the law, which There is something else we have to address, and that is why it is not on the US mainland and why we made is how court cases deal with intelligence information. great efforts to secure the release of British nationals Today, there are serious problems. The services cannot and British residents from Guantanamo—the only country disclose anything that is secret in order to defend themselves that successfully brought back its citizens. With our in court with confidence that that information will be having secured the release of all our citizens and all but protected. There are also doubts about our ability to one of our residents, may I ask whether the Prime protect the secrets of our allies and stop them ending up Minister is continuing the efforts that we made to bring in the public domain. This has strained some of our back the final remaining British resident who is still oldest and most important security partnerships in the detained? world—in particular, that with America. Hon. Members May I agree with the Prime Minister that it is right should not underestimate the vast two-way benefit this that anyone who takes part in or aids and abets torture US-UK relationship has brought in disrupting terrorist is criminally liable and must be accountable for their plots and saving lives. actions and responsible to the criminal courts? There is, So we need to deal with these problems. We hope that of course, a criminal investigation under way, which the Supreme Court will provide further clarity on the was referred to the police by the then Attorney-General underlying law within the next few months. And next Baroness Scotland. Will the Prime Minister confirm year, we will publish a Green Paper which will set out that that investigation will proceed to its conclusion our proposals for how intelligence is treated in the full independently and unimpeded? range of judicial proceedings, including addressing the I agree with the Prime Minister that it is right that we concerns of our allies. In this process, the Government have proper accountability for our security services, and will seek the views of the cross-party Intelligence and I reaffirm our support in that respect for the work of Security Committee. I can announce today that I have the Intelligence and Security Committee. I welcome his 179 Treatment of Detainees6 JULY 2010 Treatment of Detainees 180

[Ms Harriet Harman] Will he affirm to the House today his support for the Human Rights Act, which ensures that, when there is a appointment of the right hon. and learned Member for breach of human rights, including the right not to be Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) to chair the committee. tortured, the victim can take action in our courts rather He will undertake that important work with the integrity than spending up to seven years taking the case to the and commitment for which he is respected in all parts European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg? Will of the House, ensuring that the ISC plays its part in he reaffirm that it is never right for us to deport the strong framework of accountability that includes from this country those who would face torture in their accountability to Ministers; to the heads of the agencies; home country? to the two commissioners for the intelligence services, I invite the Prime Minister to reaffirm the UK’s support both retired High Court judges; to the independent for the work of the United Nations to end torture, reviewer of terrorism legislation Lord Carlile, to whom including the convention against torture and the 2002 I also pay tribute; and to the courts. optional protocol, which establishes an international I welcome the publication today of consolidated system of inspections for places of detention. guidance for intelligence officers and the military on the So that the security services can proceed with their questioning of suspects held overseas. That was a complex important work to protect this country, with all inquiries process, which we committed to and which was under concluded, will the Prime Minister confirm how long he way, so we are pleased that it has been completed with expects the inquiry to take from when it starts work? He publication today. said that it would take no longer than a year. We hope I hope that the administrative inquiry led by Sir Peter that it can start as soon as possible, but will he explain Gibson, who is one of the Intelligence Services how he believes that it will be able to start before the Commissioners, which the Prime Minister has announced end of the year? today, will help bring the matter to a conclusion. Can he I endorse the Prime Minister’s support for the difficult tell the House a bit more about the terms under which and often dangerous work of our security services. The the inquiry will be conducted? What will it be able to do whole country has reason to be grateful to officers from that the Intelligence and Security Committee is not able all branches of the intelligence services for their fearless to do? Will the inquiry have extra powers that the ISC work throughout the world to keep this country safe. does not have, and if so, what? The Prime Minister has told the House that the inquiry The Prime Minister: May I thank the right hon. and will be able to have some of its hearings in public; the learned Lady for her response and questions? She is ISC, of course, can do that. He has told the House that right to pay tribute to the security services. It is because the inquiry will be able to look at all the information we revere and respect what they do that we want to get relevant to its work, including secret information. As on with the inquiry and get it done. To answer one of I understand it, that is the case with the ISC. He says her questions, that is why it is limited to a year, and I that it will have access to all relevant Government hope that it gets started before the end of the year. papers, including those held by the intelligence services, Let me deal with the questions in turn. I agree with and I very much hope that that will be the case for the the right hon. and learned Lady about torture—we have ISC. He also says that it will be able to take evidence in signed countless prohibitions against it, we do not public, including from those who have brought accusations condone it anywhere in the world, and we should be against the Government and their representatives and clear that information derived from it is useless. We interest groups. That is, of course, the case with the ISC should also be clear that we should not deport people to too. He concluded that the inquiry would have the full be tortured elsewhere, but we should redouble our co-operation of the civil service and intelligence services, efforts—my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will and of course we hope that that is always the case with be doing that with the Home Secretary—to ensure that the ISC. we can have guarantees from other countries so that we The Prime Minister has confirmed that concluding can deport people to them knowing that they will not be the question of criminal responsibility will take precedence, tortured. and that the administrative inquiry will start only when On Guantanamo, we are making efforts on behalf of the criminal investigation and any proceedings thereafter the case that the right hon. and learned Lady mentioned. are concluded. As he said, there are currently under way As she probably knows, it involves a UK resident rather a number of cases in the civil courts in which former than a UK national. detainees are taking action against members of the On whether the current criminal case can continue security services. Can he clarify more specifically the unimpeded, yes, of course it can. It is a matter for the effect of the mediation in advance of the administrative police and the prosecuting authorities. inquiry on these cases? Can he confirm that those cases The right hon. and learned Lady made several points will not be superseded by the inquiry, which would need about the Intelligence and Security Committee. I thank the consent of the plaintiffs and any future plaintiffs? her for her comments about my right hon. and learned Can he clarify the circumstances in which compensation Friend the Member for Kensington. He will do an might be awarded if the courts ultimately found that excellent job and it is an important committee. However, there was no liability? in answer to why there is an inquiry rather than the Will the Prime Minister acknowledge the importance Intelligence and Security Committee doing the job, the of the Human Rights Act 1998, which enshrines in inquiry will be led by a judge and will be fully independent British law the European convention on human rights of Parliament, party and Government. That is what we and the protections that article 3 affords: need to get to the bottom of the case. The fact that it is “No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or led by a judge will help ensure that we get it done degrading treatment or punishment”? properly. Although I have ultimate respect for the 181 Treatment of Detainees6 JULY 2010 Treatment of Detainees 182

Intelligence and Security Committee, during the previous Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): May I welcome Parliament, there was such a run-around between the the Prime Minister’s statement and in particular the Government and the Committee—not about holding warm and justified support that he gave to the intelligence an inquiry, but about publishing the guidance—that I services? In the previous Parliament, the Intelligence wonder whether the right hon. and learned Lady is and Security Committee produced two reports, neither taking the right line on that. It is much better to have a of which was published. The first was into the rendition judge-led inquiry—[Interruption.] She has not taken a and interrogation of Binyam Mohamed, and the second position, and I am pleased to hear that. was into the guidance and treatment of detainees. Will The right hon. and learned Lady asked why we should he confirm that both reports will be made available to try to mediate civil cases. We want to clear the decks, get the inquiry? Will the guidance that he is publishing the inquiry done and sort out the problem, so why not today be the same guidance that was in force for the try to mediate the existing civil cases, roll them up, deal past decade, or will it be the revised guidance to which with them, hold the inquiry, get to the bottom of what the Home Office and Foreign Office were opposed until happened, and set out the guidance for the future so as recently as last April? that we remove the stain on Britain’s reputation and ensure that our security services can get on with the work? I do The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend served on that not see an alternative; I think that the Government have Committee and knows its work extremely well. To gripped the matter quickly and comprehensively. I think answer his questions, it is right that the reports to which that is the right answer so we can move on. he refers will be made available to the inquiry. The guidance we are publishing today is neither the past Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Anyone guidance nor the guidance the ISC looked at: it is who has been a member of the Intelligence and Security indeed new, amalgamated guidance, which is public, Committee would want to join in the tributes to all and I urge him to read it. We are not publishing the ISC three services that the Prime Minister and the acting report from the previous Parliament on the last set of leader of the Labour party paid. The Prime Minister guidance, because that would be slightly misleading—it has struck a delicate balance between competing interests. is a report into guidance that no longer exists. That is Perhaps the most powerful reason for having a judge the right approach, and I ask him to look at the guidance rather than the committee—apart from the volume of to see what he thinks. material that must be examined—is the primary need to ensure public confidence and an outcome that satisfies the public that everything has been done fully and Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I welcome impartially to get to the bottom of the allegations. the Prime Minister’s statement and in particular his support for, and reaffirmation of, the very brave work The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to my right of the security services. He will be all too well aware of hon. and learned Friend for the way he puts that. Public the likely impact of the inquiry on communities here in confidence is essential and there are competing interests. Britain, because of the events that it deals with. As the I do not want to hide that from people. That is the inquiry progresses, I ask him to be conscious of the reason for not having a full judicial inquiry. We want a need to explain, to be as transparent as possible, and to judge-led inquiry, but at the same time, we need to have be aware of the impact on our communities here in regard to the importance of the security services and Britain of some of the allegations that may be made in their work, and to the fact that a lot of what they do relation to events that occurred elsewhere. must, by its very nature, remain secret. Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime The Prime Minister: The right hon. Lady makes an Minister referred to his hope that the inquiry could be extremely good point, and all right hon. and hon. established by the end of the year if the mediation Members can play their part. Different communities in process leads to the court cases being removed from the our country will welcome what has been said today as equation. Is not that very naive? What possible incentive an effort to get to the truth and the facts, and to find out would people have to come to an agreement unless they what happened to make sure it cannot happen again. are to be given very large amounts of money? At this That will be welcomed, and I am sure she will be able to time of public concern about the finances, will he clarify play her part in that. what he is proposing? How much money will be available, and what happens at the end of the year if people do Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): I warmly welcome not accept a mediation process? Does no inquiry start? the Prime Minister’s statement. It was courageous and very thoughtful, and the inquiry is a huge step forward The Prime Minister: I have to say to the hon. Gentleman as it can draw a line under a sorry affair that has been that what would be naive is to try to mediate in public, eroding public confidence in our security services, which which he is inviting me to do. I do not think that that do such good work on our behalf. Will he clarify that would be sensible. To try to answer his question as the remit that will be given to the inquiry will be broad directly as I can, I think there are two things that those enough to encompass all allegations of complicity in involved in such cases might want, one of which is rendition, including on rendition flights, the use of compensation if they feel that they have been mistreated. Diego Garcia and the transfer of prisoners in theatre? Mediation can deal with that, but the second thing they might want, which the inquiry goes to, is some recognition of what went wrong—if something went wrong—and The Prime Minister: Yes, I can confirm that the to know what we are going to do about it. Therefore, the inquiry will be able to look at all those issues, including two-stage process of the mediation and the inquiry is rendition, extraordinary rendition and the case that the the right answer. hon. Gentleman mentions involving Diego Garcia. 183 Treatment of Detainees6 JULY 2010 Treatment of Detainees 184

Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): As a former Did not experience in Northern Ireland over 30 years member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, I demonstrate time and again that torture only helps welcome the Prime Minister’s statement today. What he terrorism, and certainly does not help to undermine it? proposes to deal with the past is correct and what he proposes for dealing with the future is correct. However, The Prime Minister: There is no suggestion that British I have some concerns about the present. Before the agents, officials or security service personnel were in inquiry is established, some cases will arise in which there any way involved directly in torture. It is important that may be some doubt about an issue that has arisen and we get it straight that that is not what is being said. The the dangers to public safety in this country. Can he give hon. Gentleman’s general point is right: we do not keep the House an assurance that when ministerial involvement ourselves safe and secure—or promote the things in is necessary—and I accept that that is a good way which we believe—if we drop our standards. We both forward—it will, in such cases, be dealt with speedily? served on the Home Affairs Committee that met in those difficult days straight after 9/11, and I remember—I The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman makes am sure that he does, too—the great pressure there was an important point. All the published guidance in the on everybody to find out what was going to happen world cannot deal with all the incredibly difficult next. We should remember, as we carry out this inquiry, circumstances in which our brave intelligence officers the pressures that were on security services across the find themselves in different parts of the world. The world to try to prevent a repeat of those dreadful guidance is there as guidance. It is as clear as it can be, events. but it is right that there are circumstances in which decisions are referred to Ministers. In the end, Ministers Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the are accountable in Parliament and are able to make previous findings of the Intelligence and Security those decisions. The right hon. Gentleman’s point is a Committee on all these matters be, partly, the building good one: if that happens, it may need to happen very blocks of the inquiry? Will the Prime Minister also speedily, and we will put in place arrangements so that concede that the test that he has rightly reserved to that can happen. Ministers represents a classic moral dilemma, because Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I while taking every possible step to ensure that Britain commend the Prime Minister on coming to such a fast has in no way assisted or abetted torture, a decision has decision on this important issue and I support what he to be made on how to relate to the services of regimes had to say today, including his commendation of our whose conduct we do not trust, but who may hold intelligence services. Will he reinforce what I think information vital to the safety of the people of this underpinned much of what he said, which was that this country? tribunal will be able to follow the evidence wherever it The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is goes; that it will not only have access to people and right that the previous ISC findings will be enormously papers, but to in camera court records that relate to this; helpful to the inquiry. However, let me try to clarify a and, when it comes to conclusions, it will be the decision bit further what Ministers would have to decide—although of the tribunal, and the tribunal alone, as to what is hon. Members can also read the guidance published published in the national interest? today. It is not that Ministers would be consulted in The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend for cases of torture, because torture is ruled out completely. those points and for his support on this issue. It was This difficult matter refers to cases of so-called mistreatment, important to reach a speedy conclusion, because this of which there is no proper definition: it can range from has been hanging over us for too long. We are not things that we would probably consider to be torture, dealing with issues that we have inherited from 2007, such as waterboarding, to factors such as an inappropriately 2008 and 2009. These go back some way, to after 9/11, sized cell. That is why there is some need, in the very and it is important that we grip them. He asked whether difficult circumstances with which one of our agents the inquiry would be able to look at court records, and I could be faced, for that level of discretion. That is the am sure that the answer to that is yes. As for what will sort of moment we have to try to consider and get right, be made public, it will be for Sir Peter to draw up his and not be over-bureaucratic about. report. He can follow the evidence exactly where it leads, he can look at secret documents and all the Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome the intelligence information, but the report will be to me—and establishment of this inquiry and the appointment of in the end, as Prime Minister and Minister for the the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir intelligence services, I have to make a decision about Malcolm Rifkind). The Prime Minister is right to praise what should be put in the public domain. It is my the work of the security services, but will he also intention to publish the report—that is what I want to acknowledge the work done by the Metropolitan police do—but I have to have regard for what is in the national counter-terrorism unit? Given that, as a distinguished interest and in our security interest, and that is something former member of the Home Affairs Committee, he has that I will have to decide. accepted one of the Committee’s recommendations—the establishment of the National Security Council—will Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): On the eve he consider the second recommendation in that area, of the fifth anniversary of 7/7, no one in this House is which is for the Government to allow intercept evidence likely for one moment to underestimate the acute terrorist in court proceedings? threat, but is it not a matter of great concern that one of our most senior judges, the Master of the Rolls, said The Prime Minister: I am very keen on recommendations this year in court that British security officials of the Home Affairs Committee. Another of its excellent “appear to have a dubious record when it comes to human rights recommendations was a border police force. On intercept, and coercive techniques”? we all, I think, want to see that happen. We all want 185 Treatment of Detainees6 JULY 2010 Treatment of Detainees 186 more of those accused of terrorism to go through the needs to do is ask how we stop such things happening in court process, and to be tried, convicted and imprisoned— future. One way to stop them is by having better guidance, and intercept evidence would be hugely helpful. However, so that our security services have a clearer understanding it is extremely difficult to do. One of the greatest enthusiasts of what is and is not acceptable. That is not easy, and in the last Parliament—apart from myself—for intercept inevitably some people will say that the guidance is evidence being available in court was the former Member quite bureaucratic. I totally accept and understand that, for Folkestone, Michael Howard. He was on that but we have to have some way of trying to prevent what Committee, but did not find a way to make this happen, happened from happening again. so let us not overestimate how easy it is to do; it is not easy at all. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Does the Prime Minister know how many civil cases there are, and what Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I strongly the position would be if claimants did not wish to go to welcome the Prime Minister’s approach. Does he agree arbitration? that recent years have shown that targeted surveillance and intelligence are much more successful at defending The Prime Minister: There are about a dozen cases, as a free society than an ever greater extension of guards, I understand it. Obviously it will be better if the mediation guns and gates? This is why his work is so important. is successful, those cases are rolled up, and we then go We need intelligence services that command universal into the inquiry. Clearly the police have a view that the respect and get to the truth as quickly as possible. inquiry should not start until the criminal case is completed. I would hope that the civil cases can be dealt with The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is completely through mediation, but if they are not, we will have to right. We need a robust and hard-nosed defence of our come back and consider what is appropriate. liberty, which means having security services that can work properly. That is why today’s announcement is Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): important. However, we do not need what I would call I commend the Prime Minister for his excellent statement, ineffective authoritarianism, of which we had a bit too which I am sure will be greeted with some relief by the much under the previous regime—although I do not intelligence services, not least because he is standing by want to get political, as this is not a political day. the control principle, which it is so important to restore— that is, the principle that intelligence lent to us by our Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): allies should not be passed on, leaked or released through Holding the Executive to account is supposed to be the the courts, as has been happening, thereby damaging role of Parliament, not of judges or independent inquiries. our intelligence relationships. Will he give an assurance Does the Prime Minister not think it about time, therefore, that if it becomes necessary to amend the operation of that the Intelligence and Security Committee was made the Human Rights Act 1998, he will not flinch from a Committee of the House, appointed by the House, doing so in order to protect our relationships with not one appointed by, and reporting to, him? our allies?

The Prime Minister: I have only been doing this job The Prime Minister: The intelligence services do welcome for a few weeks, and I am very happy to look at that the statement today; obviously I have worked closely issue. I know that it has been discussed before. Can we with them on this issue. From their perspective, what I change the nature of the Intelligence and Security have announced will not be without difficulties or a Committee? Can we help it to do its job even better? painful process of examination, but it will get them to a I am very happy to look at that. However, I do not think better situation—one in which we can deal with this for a moment that we should believe that the ISC stain on Britain’s reputation and allow their officers to should be doing this piece of work. For public confidence, get on with the vital work that they do. My hon. Friend and for independence from Parliament, party and is right about the control principle. It is a simple point: Government, it is right to have a judge-led inquiry. I say if other countries do not feel that we will protect the to Opposition Members who take a different view that intelligence information that they give us, they will not these events relate to 2002-03. If the ISC was the right give it to us any more—and if they do not give it to us answer, why on earth did it not come up with it in the any more, we will not be as effective at keeping people previous years? safe. The control principle is therefore vital, although I do not think that it has anything to do with the Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): Human Rights Act. We shall address that matter next The gathering of intelligence is not the same as the year, through a Green Paper that can be debated and gathering of evidence: sometimes intelligence is required discussed in the House, because it is not easy to find a much more urgently and in a hostile environment. Could way to protect secret information in an open liberal the Prime Minister give the House an assurance that democracy, but we have got to do it. after the inquiry is over, he will think very carefully before reintroducing any extra guidelines or regulations Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I, too, welcome for our intelligence services that might prevent them the statement by the Prime Minister and pay tribute to from doing the job that they do so well at the moment? the gallant, dangerous and largely unrecorded work of our security services, which has saved the lives of many The Prime Minister: I know that my hon. Friend has individuals, including people in this House. Will the experience of these issues and thinks about them a lot. Prime Minister ensure that the inquiry is short and All I would say is that there is no doubt that there are sharp, and is not allowed to drift beyond the remit that serious allegations about what happened in the past. I he has outlined in his statement today or sap the morale do not want to pre-empt the report, but one thing that it of our security services, which can be put down by 187 Treatment of Detainees6 JULY 2010 Treatment of Detainees 188

[Ian Paisley] Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I very much welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. It will be even more inquiries that are largely used as propaganda tools by warmly welcomed by Mrs Zineera Aamer and her children their enemies? On the judicial proceedings, will the Prime —the family of Shaker Aamer, the last UK resident in Minister ensure that, like the previous Administration, Guantanamo Bay. They are also my constituents. They he will consult, and that the right hon. and learned are British citizens, and they have suffered greatly over Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) consults the past eight years. Does my right hon. Friend agree Privy Council members from Northern Ireland on security that it adds urgency to the case that, in the event of the and intelligence matters, so that their voice is heard on inquiry deciding that it wants to take evidence from those points? Mr Aamer, he should, ideally, be available to give it?

The Prime Minister: I am sure that my right hon. and The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady makes a very learned Friend the Member for Kensington will have good point on behalf of her constituents. As I said in heard what the hon. Gentleman has said. As for the my statement, there will be opportunities for public reassurances that he seeks from me, first he asked evidence to be given to the inquiry, including from those whether the inquiry would be short and sharp. The who are making allegations against UK personnel. It is answer is yes: it is limited to a year. Do we want to make important that that is available, but as I said, a lot of it clear that the inquiry will not sap the morale of this inquiry will not be held in public, because of the intelligence officers? Absolutely: the purpose for getting nature of what it is investigating. on with the process within the first couple of months of a new Government is to try to clear this issue away. It is Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I congratulate not easy and it will take some time, but it is better to the Prime Minister and wish him well with the inquiry. I start now, with an ordered process—the mediation, the think that it is the fifth to have been set up since 9/11 public inquiry, the guidelines for the future—in order to and Iraq. If this one can bring some closure and draw a try to put our security services and our safety on a line, we would all be a lot happier. He made a point much better footing. about mediation. Could part of that process involve encouraging certain gentlemen not to go out around the Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): If the country supporting Islamists and jihadi principles and inquiry team believes that, for the sake of the credibility practices? That is a real problem. If they are free in our of the inquiry, intelligence material should be put into country, it is better that they do not encourage others to the public domain, and if it is safe to do so, can the do things that are not very helpful. Prime Minister confirm that he will allow that to happen? The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman and I would probably agree on the need to confront and The Prime Minister: That is a very good question. defeat those who put forward extremist Islamist arguments. The answer is that if it is safe to do so, yes of course. That is something that we have to do for the good of This is not some political witch hunt to get at Ministers our country and for the good of the world. He asked from a previous Government; that is not what this is whether an inquiry could draw a line under all this. All about. Likewise, it is not about trying to cover up bad I would say is that I do not think there has yet been a things that might have happened. It is about trying to proper attempt to look systematically at the set of get to the bottom of what happened, to explain the allegations about whether British personnel were in any context and to get the information out there. As the way complicit because of the things that they witnessed Minister for the intelligence services, however, I have to or were involved in. That has not been done, and it have regard to what it is safe to release, and that is a needs to be done. I would ask people who disagree: responsibility that I have to take very seriously. what is the alternative? Do we really want to let the civil cases roll on year after year, and have the people in our Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): security services jammed up with paperwork trying to Is the Prime Minister aware, from the general tenor of fight them? It is much better to clear them away and get the questions this afternoon, that his statement is very to the bottom of this, to ensure that those people can welcome throughout the House? He is to be commended get on with the job that they do so well. for it. Can he confirm that the 46 documents originating from the CIA—about which there has been a lot of Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I think discussion—will be made available not only to the inquiry that many hon. Members on both sides of the House but perhaps more widely as well? will understand the approach to mediation in some of the civil cases, but does the Prime Minister accept that The Prime Minister: The point is that the inquiry can the situation is a bit more controversial when it comes follow the evidence wherever it leads—but let me be to compensation, particularly if no wrongdoing on the clear that it is not an inquiry into what the US authorities part of the security services has been proven? Will he have done. It is an inquiry into what UK personnel may therefore agree to having at least some level of transparency or may not have done. It is important that we get that after these processes have been completed, perhaps by straight. The stain, if you like, on the British situation is publishing the amounts of compensation involved—or the allegations of complicity, and of what our personnel at the very least by not exempting that information might have witnessed or in some way been complicit in. from the Freedom of Information Act 2000? That is what we have to deal with. We are not trying to have some great inquiry into the practices and procedures The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right to of other intelligence services; that is not what the inquiry say that this is a difficult process. Nobody wants to pay is about. compensation that is not warranted. I would say two 189 Treatment of Detainees6 JULY 2010 Treatment of Detainees 190 things to him, however. One is that it is getting increasingly Several hon. Members rose— difficult for the security services to defend themselves in the civil actions, because the information that they Mr Speaker: Last, but certainly not least, I call Mr. Mark would use to defend themselves would then be made Durkan. public. They do not want that to happen, so they do not bring the information forward and they cannot therefore Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I thank the Prime win the case. The second thing that I would say to him is Minister for acknowledging dimensions of this issue that the point about mediation is that it is a private that the previous Government either denied or dithered process, and if we start advertising our mediation about. Does he also accept, however, that not all of us strategy—or, indeed, our mediation outcome—it is not can join in the canonisation of the security services, necessarily going to make mediation very easy in future. because many of us believe that they were complicit in some of worst crimes carried out by both loyalists and republicans in Northern Ireland? Can the Prime Minister Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I, address the peculiar sequence that now seems to be in too, very much welcome the statement, and I find it front of us: mediation, compensation, then investigation extraordinary that, after the Labour years, a Conservative by this inquiry—and then, presumably, adjudication Prime Minister is making it. The Prime Minister says and publication thereafter? Might that not be a self- that he does not want to be political, but perhaps I can frustrating sequence? encourage him just a little bit. Given the Labour party’s refusal, when in government, to accept claims of torture, and its various attempts to try to make all this go away, The Prime Minister: I hope that it is not. We have does he not believe that former Ministers and Secretaries spent some time looking at this issue, trying to find the of States should appear before the inquiry? right way to deal with it, and we think that mediation, followed by the judge-led inquiry, is the right way to get to the bottom of it. On the hon. Gentleman’s point The Prime Minister: It will be a matter for the inquiry about the security services, I would ask him to take a to decide who it wants to see as witnesses, and it will be wide view and look across the years, across the history able summon whoever it wants. Let me stress again that and across what the security services do today—not just this is not some attempt to draw former Ministers into in Northern Ireland but right across our world—to help some great argument; that is not what it is about. If the keep people in this country, and indeed in this House, inquiry wants to talk to Ministers to ask them what safe. I think we should end on the note of paying tribute information made it, or did not make it, to their to those brave men and women—they are never known Departments, of course it can. Above all, this is a clear about, and some of them die in this cause and cannot attempt to get to the bottom of what happened in those be mourned properly by their families—and of thanking very difficult years in very difficult times when allegations them for what they do on our behalf. were made which, as the hon. Gentleman says, need to be addressed. I am pleased that our new Government Several hon. Members rose— have set up what I think is the right process for doing that. Mr Speaker: I can see that the House is hungry. 191 6 JULY 2010 Points of Order 192

Points of Order are read at the time of maximum attendance in the House, and at the time when the House receives maximum attention from outside? 4.23 pm Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Mr. Speaker. Yesterday the Secretary of State for Education his point of order. I do not think that anyone would made his chaotic announcement about decimating the want to downgrade the significance of what has taken Building Schools for the Future programme. It now place, or the importance of informing the House of the transpires that a list naming the schools affected, which details of those who have perished. The Prime Minister, should have been available to Members during the on a number of different occasions and at different debate, contained errors, and a revised list had to be times of the week, has given the House such details, and sent out. There are also some authorities that think they I know that he has done so in all solemnity. I do not might be affected, although they are not named. think it would be right for me to add anything further at this stage, but I am happy to reflect on the hon. Gentleman’s As you can imagine, Mr Speaker, this has caused point, and I know that others will do so as well. considerable anxiety and confusion. Is it not essential that on such a sensitive subject, this House must have timely and accurate information? Is there any way in Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): Young which you can request the Secretary of State to come to people in my constituency were reassured yesterday the Chamber and account for this totally unacceptable when they were told that the schools there would not be situation? At the same time, can he also account for the affected by the Building Schools for the Future cuts. I serious allegations that he made yesterday against the have now been informed that the organisation Partnerships former Secretary of State, who he claimed had made for Schools has contradicted the statement that the Secretary of State made to the House, and that Manor, “unsustainable and irresponsible promises that he knew no George Salter and Menzies schools face an uncertain Government could keep”, future. People make mistakes, Mr Speaker, but is it not while also saying that unreasonable for the Secretary of State not to put the “£2.5 billion of unfunded commitments is evidence of scandalous matter right? If he is indeed wrong and Partnerships for irresponsibility”—[Official Report, 5 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 54.]? Schools is right, those young people in my constituency We now know, thanks to a letter from the permanent deserve an apology for having their hopes raised and secretary at the Department, who is the chief accounting then cruelly dashed 24 hours later. officer, that that was not the case and that the current Secretary of State was totally wrong. Mr. Speaker, Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for should not the Secretary of State come to this House, his point of order, and also for giving me advance set the record straight and apologise? notice of it. He will understand that I am reluctant to be drawn into the detail of the debate, but I will say this to Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for him. As I have already indicated, statements to the his point of order, and for advance notice of it. First, I House should be both timely and accurate. Obviously, if reiterate what I said yesterday—that, of course, statements something said to the House is misleading—that is a to this House should be both timely and accurate. strict and tough test—it should be corrected; if any Secondly, I think it only fair to point out to him that apology is required—I do not know whether it is—I matters relating to the content of statements are not hope that it will be forthcoming. matters for the Chair. Thirdly, he drew attention to the I did comment yesterday on the difficulties for the letter sent by the permanent secretary to the right hon. House of learning about detailed announcements when Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls). He referred a Secretary of State possesses full details and the House to that letter very specifically in a point of order to me does not. I made very clear my view that in the name last night. It is possible that he felt that it deserved a both of courtesy and of effective scrutiny, if a Minister larger audience today, but Members can consult yesterday’s making a statement possesses a list, he or she has a duty Hansard. I do not think it would be proper for me to to put that list on the Table of the House or in the Vote add anything more, but the hon. Gentleman is certainly Office or both, at the start, not the end, of the statement. an enthusiastic pugilist. It may also be helpful if I say to the hon. Gentleman and the House both that his point will have been heard Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of on the Treasury Bench—I am delighted to see that the order, Mr Speaker. The practice of reading out the Leader of the House is present—and that there will be names of the fallen is a welcome new tradition in the further opportunities to take up the matter, not least House, and is greatly appreciated by their loved ones. during oral questions to the Department for Education We know the special intense silence that greets such next Monday, 12 July. I have not, however, been notified readings. Last Monday and today, the names of the of any further statement to be made on this subject fallen were read out as part of statements—on the G20 today. last Monday, and on extraordinary rendition today. I know that there is no Member in the House who would Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): On a point of want to seem to downgrade the gratitude, appreciation order, Mr Speaker. It has been said on a number of and respect that we feel for those who have given their occasions from the Treasury Bench that the previous lives, but if we move the reading to another time, it Government made unfunded spending commitments. could be interpreted as an attempt to bury bad news. Labour Members have repeatedly asked Ministers to Will you consider that, Mr Speaker, and make produce, if that were the case, the letter to the permanent representations to ensure that the names of the fallen secretary giving a ministerial direction for those things 193 Points of Order 6 JULY 2010 194 to take place. Is there any way that you, as Speaker, can Finance Bill ensure that a Minister comes to the House and produces that letter of direction—or, if not, that Ministers apologise Second Reading. for the slurs that they have placed on Members? 4.31 pm Mr Speaker: The hon. Lady is a very wily and experienced operator, and she knows that I could be forgiven for The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): concluding that she is attempting to continue a debate I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. started yesterday by the right hon. Member for Morley The emergency Budget takes tough action at a critical and Outwood, the shadow Secretary of State for Education, time for the British economy. The Bill implements many and continued with some poise and persistence by the of the necessary measures in the Budget. As my right hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), who is still hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his sitting on the Front Bench. In fact she may, for all I statement: know, be engaged in a double act with the hon. Gentleman. “The coalition Government have inherited from their predecessors However, she has made her point with her customary the largest budget deficit of any economy in Europe, with the eloquence, and it is on the record. single exception of Ireland. One pound in every four we spend is being borrowed.” —[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 166.] The gap stands at £149 billion for this financial year alone. Yet the previous Government left us with no credible plans to reduce their record deficit. Nothing at this time is more urgent for Britain than setting out a tough, realistic and fair plan that demonstrates how we will regain control of the public finances.

Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Would not a better plan be for the Government to try to collect some of the taxes that are not paid, rather than cutting the wages and jobs of people in the public sector?

Danny Alexander: I am grateful for that intervention. Of course the hon. Gentleman will know that the Bill includes some anti-avoidance measures, to which I will come in my speech. I trust, therefore, that he will welcome those measures.

Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman just told the House that the previous Government’s plans for a reduction were not credible, but how can he say that when the Office for Budget Responsibility’s latest independent analysis found that the Labour reduction plan would have more than achieved the target to halve the deficit over four years from 11.1% in 2009-10 to 5% in 2013?

Danny Alexander: I am grateful for that intervention. As the OBR set out both in its pre-Budget forecast and in the forecast published with the Budget, the comparison that the hon. Gentleman is seeking to make is based on interest rate assumptions that took into account market expectations under this Government’s measures, not market expectations of the measures that the previous Government were taking. He should read the OBR report if he does not agree, because that is an accurate account of what it says. It is clear that, had the previous Government carried on with their plans, interest rates would have been different. The risks that we are seeking to avoid through the Budget are those of higher interest rates, lower growth and fewer jobs, which I believe would be the consequence.

Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): In light of that answer, what are we to make of Sir Alan Budd’s resignation today? The right hon. Gentleman puts much store by the OBR’s reports, but did they not contribute to Sir Alan relinquishing his post? He said that this was 195 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 196

[Clive Efford] that is what we have set out. It is worth pointing out to her that this is the first time that a Government have the greatest challenge of his professional career. He chosen to set out in detail in the Budget documentation must have an extremely exciting career that he can give the distributional impact of the Budget measures. That up that post so quickly. is not a measure that the previous Government took, for example, when the 10p tax rate was being abolished. Danny Alexander: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to place on the record my Mr Kevan Jones rose— thanks and those of this Government to Sir Alan Budd for his superb work in establishing, in a short period, an Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) independent Office for Budget Responsibility with a (Lab) rose— strong reputation. It was always known that he intended to move on after a short period—a few months—in his Danny Alexander: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman post, and that is what he is doing. In a short time, he has and then to the right hon. Lady. established greater independence of the forecasts that go with the Budget than the previous Government Mr Kevan Jones: I know that the right hon. Gentleman managed in 13 years. is doing his apprenticeship, but does he not understand the difference between the proportion and the actual Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Sir Alan tax take? Surely for a family in my constituency who are Budd is leaving the Office for Budget Responsibility, so earning the minimum wage, the VAT situation alone to ensure that that organisation is seen to be independent, will mean that the effect on the proportion of their will the right hon. Gentleman give the House of Commons income will be larger. If he looked at the research paper the power to appoint the successor or is he going to that has been ably produced in the House of Commons, keep that for himself as a Minister? he would find that it points out that fact. Danny Alexander: I am not sure that that power ever Danny Alexander: I ask the hon. Gentleman to look rested in the hands of the Chief Secretary but, as the at the tables on page 67 of the Red Book. I draw his hon. Gentleman knows from the Gracious Speech, the attention to chart A2, which is on the Government intend to implement legislation to put the OBR on a statutory footing. He will have the “Impact of all measures as a per cent of net income by income opportunity to make that point in considering that distribution”. legislation, and I am sure that he intends to do so. He will find that it makes it clear that the impact on the top decile is the highest as a share of income. Other Several hon. Members rose— charts make it clear that it is the highest in cash terms and that the impact is broadly progressive across income Danny Alexander: I would like to make progress. distribution. We have considered the plans of the previous Government and it is clear that they left us open to the Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab) risk of ending up in an even more serious crisis than rose— that which we currently face. Such a crisis could ask questions of the kind that some other European countries Danny Alexander: I give way to the right hon. Member face today, with higher interest rates—I mentioned those for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)—more who tried to intervene first. businesses going bust and higher unemployment. That is not a risk that we are prepared to take. The Budget Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) takes the tough action necessary, but it does so with (Lab): I am rushing to get to the ballot box—[Interruption.] fairness, protecting the most vulnerable, including The right hon. Gentleman is welcome to come to the children in poverty and pensioners. In his emergency ballot box too, if he so wishes. He will know that not Budget, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has set out only does chart A2 include the Labour measures from clearly how we will pay for the bills of the past and start the March Budget, but it does not go beyond 2012-13 to plan for the future. This has already had an impact and does not include housing benefit. Is he also aware on the credibility of and confidence in the British that the House of Commons analysis has shown that economy. more than 70% of about £8 billion of direct tax and benefit measures introduced in his Budget are being Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): On fairness, paid by women? What figure does the Treasury put on it is clear that the measures that the right hon. Gentleman the proportion of those direct tax and benefit measures is enacting mean that the poorest 10% of people lose in being paid by women? percentage terms twice as much of their incomes as the richest 10%. What definition of fairness is he using Danny Alexander: There were a lot of questions there when he says that that is fair? but not a single apology for the record of the previous Government. The single measure announced by the Danny Alexander: I am sorry, but I do not accept the previous Government that is included in the charts in figures that the hon. Lady set out. If she looks at the the Budget Book is the national insurance change. We information presented in the Red Book, she will find have chosen to introduce that measure, so it is legitimate that it shows that the richest 10% of the population pay that we have included it in the charts. Other measures the greatest contribution, both as a share of their income that affect people on higher incomes such as the increase and in cash terms. That is what I mean by fairness, and in capital gains tax for higher rate taxpayers, which the 197 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 198 previous Government never chose to introduce, cannot the toughest Budget since the second world war, there be included in the tables, so the impact on the wealthiest will be no impact on measured child poverty—something may even be greater than is illustrated in the charts. that could not always be said of the previous Government’s Budgets. Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Does not the Minister, like me, find it a bit rich that Opposition Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): Opposition Members Members look only at part of the Budget, not the like talking about apprenticeships. I am a relative newcomer whole, after 13 years in which they did not once introduce to the House so can my right hon. Friend enlighten me? a distributional table? What happened to the gap between rich and poor under Danny Alexander: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. the previous Government? For my information, did it It is a bit rich coming from the Opposition, given that get wider or narrower? we have set out for the first time in any Budget its distributional impact. Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman is clearly not as much of an apprentice in this House as he claims to Mr Byrne: Will the Chief Secretary give way? be. The gap between rich and poor got wider during the previous Government’s term. Danny Alexander: I wish to respond fully to the The measures in the Budget have already had an impact intervention. I will come to the right hon. Gentleman in on the credibility of and confidence in the British economy. a little while. As the director general of the CBI, for example, has We have taken a number of measures in the Budget, said: such as the earnings link with pensions, with a triple “This budget is the UK’s first important step on the long lock of earnings, prices or 2.5%, which the previous journey back to economic health.” Government never managed in 13 years. That is a record of which we can already be proud. I give way to The Fitch rating agency said: the former Chief Secretary. “The path of deficit reduction and public debt projections set out in” Mr Byrne: I wish to pursue the question asked by my the right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract “Budget statement are materially stronger than that set out in the and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). What is the Treasury’s March 2010 Budget.” analysis of how much of the £8 billion in tax and benefit measures will be paid for by women? On fairness, the chief executive of Barnardo’s said: “we recognise the Government has done what it can to protect the Danny Alexander: As I understand it, the House of most vulnerable.” Commons analysis does not include the impact of all the measures in the Budget. VAT is paid much more in Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Will the cash terms––that has been accepted by the Institute for right hon. Gentleman give way? Fiscal Studies––so it is paid more by the wealthiest. The analysis that we should rely on is that which is presented Danny Alexander: I will make some progress and give in the Budget because it shows that the distributional way to the hon. Gentleman later. impact of the Budget measures hits those on highest incomes hardest. That is the relevant measure and the The Bill shows how the Government will carry out one that I intend to draw attention to. Britain’s unavoidable deficit reduction plan in a way that strengthens and unites the country. The Budget John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) and the Bill stand for three things. The first is (LD): I commend my right hon. Friend on the fairness responsibility—taking action to eliminate the structural that he has ensured runs right through the Budget, deficit. The second is freedom—helping the businesses especially in respect of pensioners, but may I draw his on which we all rely to rebuild our broken economy. attention to one small potential unfairness that may The third is fairness—protecting the most vulnerable, have crept in? Pensioners who are on a modest works while ensuring the contribution of all. Those principles pension and the state pension will pay £100 more in tax are at the centre of the Bill before the House today and this year than they did last year because of the difference I shall address each in some detail shortly. in the thresholds. I am sure that this was inadvertent. Will he look again at that particular issue? Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): The right hon. Gentleman mentioned fairness Danny Alexander: I am grateful for that intervention. and businesses, and I would like to draw his attention to I am sure that my hon. Friend will have the chance to rural areas. He will understand that the increase in VAT raise that point either in Committee or on the Floor of will affect fuel prices in rural areas. Would it not be the House when the Bill is considered. right to have a rural fuel derogation pilot in place before Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Has the Chief the VAT increase takes effect? Secretary analysed the impact of the Budget measures on women? If not, will he commit to doing so? Danny Alexander: I am very grateful for that intervention. The hon. Gentleman knows that we are investigating a Danny Alexander: I can confirm that we have carried rural fuel derogation of some sort—that was repeated out an analysis of the Budget across the income distribution in the Budget statement. Although I cannot make a to evaluate its fairness. We have also conducted an commitment on timing, as he knows, I am personally analysis of the impact on child poverty, which is the very enthusiastic about such a measure and I will continue most important aspect. We have ensured that, even in to work with my colleagues on it. 199 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 200

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): Will the right Na h-Eileanan an Iar, to where might we smuggle fuel? hon. Gentleman give way? I would struggle to find anywhere where fuel is more expensive. That smuggling would be a problem is a Danny Alexander: I want to say a word or two about ridiculous proposition. We had 13 years of nothing but the process of the Finance Bill. sympathy from the last Government, with absolutely no action. I hope that this Chief Secretary does not make Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Will the Chief Secretary the same mistake. give way? Danny Alexander: I am grateful for the intervention, Danny Alexander: No, I want to make some progress. in both senses. The Finance Bill before the House today seeks to Returning to the Bill, I should say that our plan ensure that the Government’s key tax priorities as set stands first and foremost for responsibility, because a out in the emergency Budget are put on the statute failure to deal with the deficit is the greatest threat to book as swiftly as possible. This year, however, we face our economy and to the well-being of our nation. A exceptional circumstances owing to the timing of the failure to act now would mean higher interest rates general election, which resulted in a curtailed Finance hitting businesses, hitting families and hitting the cost Bill following the previous Government’s March Budget of repaying the Government’s debt. That would mean and a relatively short timetable between our emergency more business failures and sharper rises in unemployment, Budget and the summer recess. There remain a number and it would risk a catastrophic loss of confidence in of minor and technical measures that we inherited from the economy.The Budget’s forward-looking fiscal mandate the previous Government and which must be legislated will eliminate the deficit in five years and put us on for before 2011. We shall therefore introduce those track to have the debt falling by 2015. measures in a further Finance Bill in the autumn. Consistent with our aim of greater scrutiny of tax The Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts that legislation, again set out in the Budget, we shall publish the measures in our Budget will lead us to meet that all those measures in draft for consultation before the challenge one year early and the bulk of the reduction end of July. will come from lower spending, rather than from higher taxes. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced that the spending review will conclude with an Chris Bryant: The right hon. Gentleman says that he announcement on 20 October and address precisely is thinking about a derogation for rural areas in relation how we will bring down spending. to VAT on fuel. May I point out that not a single house in the Rhondda is more than half a mile from a farm, so will he include the Rhondda in a derogation not only Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) from VAT on fuel but from everything else as well? (Lab): If the Budget is to meet the objectives that the right hon. Gentleman has in mind, where exactly does Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood he expect growth to come from over the next five years? what is being discussed, which is no surprise, given the previous Government’s attitude to the idea, as the Danny Alexander: I draw the right hon. Gentleman’s hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) attention to the Budget measures forecast, which the knows. We are not talking about a VAT derogation; the OBR published. It demonstrated significant growth in proposal relates to fuel duty. the private sector, based at least in part on measures, which I shall come on to describe, in the Budget and in Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I was involved the Finance Bill. when the Treasury last looked at that idea. As the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar knows, there are real Several hon. Members rose— hardships and we were very sympathetic. However, the Chief Secretary must admit that there are difficulties Danny Alexander: I am going to press on. with developing such a policy, not least because of the potential for smuggling and fraud. Barry Gardiner: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Danny Alexander: The hon. Lady says she was sympathetic—I attended a meeting where she expressed Danny Alexander: I have given way already to the that sympathy—but no action by the previous Government hon. Gentleman. resulted, despite the matter being pressed for a number Let me turn to the first of the measures in the Bill. of years. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary will look at all the issues as the question is Stewart Hosie: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? investigated.

Mr MacNeil rose— Danny Alexander: I shall, as I have not yet given way to the hon. Gentleman. Danny Alexander: I hesitate to take further interventions, as we are somewhat outwith the scope of the Bill, but I Stewart Hosie: The Chief Secretary to the Treasury will give way once more to the hon. Gentleman. makes the point about growth, but he has not really answered the previous question. The OBR suggests that Mr MacNeil: I ask the Chief Secretary to consider business investment will increase by 8% to 11% almost this question. With rural fuel priced between £1.30 and every year, but can he tell us of any period of two, three £1.35 a litre, were a rural fuel derogation to apply in or four years when business investment grew by 8% to 201 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 202

11%—particularly given that we are coming out of the personal income, reducing the rewards for work at a deepest recession that anyone in this Chamber has ever time when hard work and endeavour must lead the seen? recovery. The VAT rise is unavoidable. As I said in the Budget Danny Alexander: Those are not my figures; those are debate, it is Labour’s inheritance tax. Clause 3 increases the figures that the independent Office for Budget the standard rate of VAT from 17.5% to 20% from Responsibility produced. By the way, the figures that 4 January 2011. Everyday essentials such as food and the previous Government put forward contained hopelessly children’s clothing, as well as newspapers and printed over-optimistic forecasts for economic growth. In this books, will remain zero-rated throughout the Parliament, Budget, we are taking measures to reduce corporation protecting those on lower and middle incomes. Domestic tax, to reduce the small companies rate of corporation consumption of fuel and power will remain subject to tax and to tackle the Labour jobs tax on national VATat5%. insurance, all of which will help to support business development. Those measures, which I shall come on to Mr Love rose— if I get the chance during my speech, will all help to stimulate economic growth in the private sector, and Danny Alexander: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, that is the best way to lead this country out of the as I did not do so earlier. economic mess that we are in. Mr Love: Can the right hon. Gentleman point to any Mr Byrne: Perhaps I can help the Chief Secretary. indication in the manifesto of either coalition party that There is a precedent for business investment matching there would be a VAT increase of the type he has just the figures in the OBR’s forecast: it has occurred once in suggested? the past 40 years. That is the rarity of the precedent on which he now relies for his future growth plan. Danny Alexander: No party proposed an increase in Danny Alexander: I am not sure that the right hon. VAT at the election, and no party ruled one out. The Gentleman can do anything to help me, given that he Liberal Democrat manifesto—[Interruption.] If Opposition left the note saying that there was no money left, and Members will listen, I will explain the situation. In the that his decisions led the country to that position. I Liberal Democrat manifesto, we made it clear that we hope that in response to this debate he chooses to would seek to reduce the deficit through spending measures apologise for the mess in which his Government left the alone, unless, on grounds of fairness, it was necessary to country. increase taxes. That was a clear statement in our election manifesto. The rationale that I have just set out is based on the decision that we made. We felt that, given the Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): Will the right hon. £12 billion of extra structural deficit left us by the Gentleman give way? previous Government, the right decision was a rise in VAT rather than increased spending cuts. Danny Alexander: I shall give way once more and then make some progress. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I am grateful to the Chief Secretary for explaining his approach Owen Smith: Precisely further to my right hon. Friend’s to fairness. Can he explain why it is fairer to cut spending point, can the Chief Secretary point to any five-year on public services, on which the poorest rely most, than period in the past 40 years when 2.5 million private to use a progressive system of taxation? Why does the sector jobs have been created—any one period? balance have to be 20% in favour of taxation and a whopping 80% in favour of public spending cuts? Danny Alexander: My point is that that forecast was made by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility. Danny Alexander: In a way, the hon. Lady makes my In the previous Government’s March Budget, their point for me. The point that I just made is that given the growth forecasts, which were not independent in that additional £12 billion of structural deficit, as revealed sense, were over-optimistic, and I am prepared to accept by the OBR forecast, that was left us by the previous the forecasts of the independent Office for Budget Government, we had to decide whether to make Responsibility. £12 billion of further spending cuts or to establish a tax measure to fill the gap. We made the right decision. The Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Will the right hon. tables in the Budget book show that the overall impact Gentleman give way on that point? on fairness—particularly for children living in poverty, which is a long-standing concern of the hon. Lady’s and Danny Alexander: No, I am going to move on. on which she has a strong track record—is minimised. Let me turn to the first of the measures in the Bill. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab) rose— Given that the structural deficit is some £12 billion larger than the previous Government told us, we have to make difficult choices—whether to fill the black hole Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the Chief Secretary with yet more spending cuts or increase taxes. Further give way? spending cuts would have made it impossible for the Government to protect the country’s most essential Danny Alexander: I am going to make progress for a services in the spending review. The only other option few moments, or the former Chief Secretary will never would have been to raise taxes on companies or on get a chance to have his say. 203 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 204

[Danny Alexander] and postponed the Mersey Gateway project? Total expenditure on those projects would have been £500 million. Clause 4 takes further action to tackle the deficit by How does that help the construction industry? increasing the standard rate of insurance premium tax from 5% to 6%. The higher rate of insurance premium Danny Alexander: I think it was irresponsible to make tax will increase from 17.5% to 20% from 4 January commitments to those sorts of projects, which could 2011, to bring it into line with the new VAT rate. The not be funded on the basis of the previous Government’s increases are both fair and sustainable. plans for halving capital spending over the next few years while building into their plans ever further, Chris Leslie rose— unsustainable commitments.

Danny Alexander: I am going to make some progress. Derek Twigg rose—

Chris Leslie: On insurance premium tax? Danny Alexander: I will press on, if I may. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said, this is a Danny Alexander: I give way on insurance premium progressive Budget. tax. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Chris Leslie: Is it fair to increase the higher rate of (PC): Will the Minister give way? insurance premium tax to 20% on travel insurance, which is vital for many ordinary working people as they Danny Alexander: I am going to make some progress, take a break and go on holiday? They may be able to do but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment. so for only one or two weeks a year. If they do not have The Budget includes progressive measures such as travel insurance, that could leave them in significant increasing the rate of capital gains tax by 10 percentage jeopardy. Will the increase not prevent or deter people points for higher rate taxpayers while keeping it the from taking out travel insurance? same for basic rate taxpayers. Clause 2 increases the rate of capital gains tax to 28% for higher rate income tax Danny Alexander: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman payers, but basic rate taxpayers continue to pay an 18% is right to exhort people to take out travel insurance. As rate. The entrepreneurs’ relief lifetime limit will be he will know, when insurance premium tax was established, extended from the first £2 million to the first £5 million. both its lower and higher rates were linked to VAT. It That implements the commitment in the coalition agreement is therefore right that they go ahead together on the to provide generous exemptions for entrepreneurial same basis. businesses. We have inherited plans to limit tax relief on pension savings for the wealthiest. We have concerns about Ian Lucas rose— the complexity of the changes and their potential consequences for pension saving, UK competitiveness Derek Twigg: Will the right hon. Gentleman give and the complexity of the tax system. However, given way? the state of the public finances, we cannot be blind to the £3.5 billion of revenue that the policy was set Danny Alexander: I am going to finish this section, to raise. Therefore we have set out our commitment to and then I will give way to both hon. Gentlemen. protecting the public finances by pursuing an alternative These changes— approach that raises no less revenue than existing plans, potentially by reducing the annual allowance. We will Derek Twigg: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. therefore engage employers, pension schemes, experts The Chief Secretary hinted a few moments ago that the and other interested parties to determine the design money was not available for Building Schools for the of an alternative scheme. To keep our options open, Future projects in my constituency, yet the shadow clause 5 provides the power to repeal the regime that Education Secretary has had a letter from the permanent was legislated for in the Finance Act 2010. secretary at the Department for Education saying that Secondly, our Budget stands for fairness. This is a the money was available. Also, I know for a fact that the Budget that protects the most vulnerable, especially money was there for the Mersey Gateway project, yet children in poverty and pensioners, while ensuring that the Chief Secretary said it was not. Can we have some those with the broadest shoulders take the greatest consistency in the accuracy of answers? share of the burden. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said in his Budget statement, it is a progressive Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is not Budget. a point of order. If the hon. Gentleman wants to intervene, it is up to the Minister to give way if he Derek Twigg rose— wishes.

Danny Alexander: I hope that the hon. Gentleman Danny Alexander: I have given way a great deal, and will admit that fact. I now give way to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). Derek Twigg: As regards fairness, is it fair to my constituents and to the construction industry that the Jonathan Edwards: On geographical fairness, does the Chief Secretary has already stopped £168 million of right hon. Gentleman agree with the recommendations expenditure on Building Schools for the Future projects of the final Holtham report, published today, which 205 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 206 calls for an immediate Barnett floor to protect Wales changes in benefits that are targeted on families. It does from further convergence, the implementation of transition not make any allowance for the way incomes may be mechanisms towards a needs-based formula, and a place shared within the household, and as a result it may well at the table for the Welsh Government in discussions on exaggerate the impact of Budget measures on women’s fiscal autonomy for Scotland? incomes. The Budget includes a number of measures to ensure Danny Alexander: I am grateful for that intervention. fairness for pensioners. For example, it locks in an I have not yet had a chance to read the second Holtham annual increase in the state pension in line with earnings, report, which is published today. However, in the course prices or a 2.5% increase, whichever is the highest—the of a meeting with the Welsh Finance Minister, I undertook so-called triple lock—to the benefit of 11 million pensioners. to meet Mr Holtham once he had published his second It also enables individuals to make more flexible use of report, and I look forward to doing so and having a their pension savings. The Government intend to end chance to discuss it directly with him. At this stage, I the existing rules that create an effective obligation to will not make any commitments of the sort the hon. purchase an annuity by age 75 from April 2011. Clause 6 Gentleman wants, except to note that on the path of provides interim measures to raise the age at which a public finances as they are at the moment, further person is required to purchase an annuity, or otherwise convergence is not forecast over the next few years. secure a pension income, from 75 to 77. That is to The changes to capital gains tax help to pay for protect those who might otherwise be forced to annuitise further progressive measures such as our increase in the before the new rules that we are seeking to introduce income tax personal allowance, which takes almost come into place. We will consult interested parties on 1 million of the lowest-earning income tax payers out of the detail of that change later this month. income tax altogether. It also increases the incentive for people on low incomes to got a job. That is fairness. Stewart Hosie: I welcome the age increase to 77 to allow flexibility, but a constituency query regarding Ian Lucas: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me how that matter has emerged in the past 48 hours. If someone many standard rate taxpayers paid capital gains tax in has already reached 75 and their annuity was going to the past year? be so miserable that they chose not to buy it yet, will they be covered by the new rules or will they fall in a Danny Alexander: Approximately half the people who hole in the middle in which, if there is anything left in paid capital gains tax in the past year were basic rate their pension pot in the future, it will be subject to taxpayers— inheritance tax?

Ian Lucas: How many? Danny Alexander: If the matter that the hon. Gentleman mentions is a constituency case, I suggest that he write Danny Alexander: I do not have the figure to hand, to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, who will be but I will happily let the hon. Gentleman know at a able to address the matter in detail. future date or write to him with the precise figures he is looking for. Mr Love: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? The measures that we are taking, rightly, close the avoidance issue that arose under the system put in place Danny Alexander: I will, on grounds of fairness. by the previous Government, whereby someone who was taking a substantial bonus, for example, in capital Mr Love: I thank the right hon. Gentleman. With gains could pay less tax than the person who cleaned regard to the triple lock, does he accept that under the their office. [Interruption.] I am being asked if that was rules setting out an increase of 2.5% or RPI, pensioners fair. I certainly do not think it was fair—it was highly will lose out for the first two years? They will actually unfair. That is why we have chosen to try to reduce have a cut rather than an increase. that avoidance risk. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) will know that the yield from the measures Danny Alexander: No, I do not accept that. In fact, that we have taken comes in large measure from income the increase next year will be protected. According to tax, which reflects the fact that that sort of avoidance the forecasts for average earnings, the increase in the was going on. following year, 2012-13, would have been 2.4%, so our floor of 2.5% will ensure that the increase in the second Yvette Cooper I thank the Chief Secretary for his year is higher than that forecast by the previous generosity in giving way. I will give him one more Government. chance to answer this important question: has the Treasury done any analysis of the direct impact of the tax and Mr Love: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? benefit measures on women, separately from men? Does he know? Danny Alexander: Once more, then I will press on.

Danny Alexander: I am not sure that that analysis was Mr Love: May I urge the right hon. Gentleman to carried out under the previous Government. We are the look at the figures? I understand that under RPI, in first Government to have published analysis of the both years the increase would be 3.1%. Are pensioners impact across the income distribution, and we have not going to lose out? conducted specific analysis of the impact on child poverty. It is notable that the House of Commons analysis Danny Alexander: I have looked at the figures, and I assumes that women will be the only people affected by stand by my previous answer. 207 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 208

Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): Will the Chief the following years. The Chancellor’s commitment in Secretary give way? the Budget speech was for year-on-year reductions, and we will fulfil it. Danny Alexander: No, I am going to make some progress. I have given way a great deal and an awful lot Stephen Timms: I thank the Chief Secretary for his of questions have been asked, and no apology has been kind remarks. heard from any Opposition Member for the dreadful I think the precedent was set in 1984, when the now mess they left the economy in. Lord Lawson reduced corporation tax over a series of Fairness in the tax system is also about ensuring that years, and the Finance Act 1984 legislated for them all. everyone pays their fair share of taxes due. Too many Why is that not being done in this Bill? individuals and firms in Britain today exploit the tax system through tax avoidance, a practice that ultimately Danny Alexander: I am grateful for the further means the rest of us have to pay more tax. The Bill puts intervention and it is interesting to hear the right hon. in place measures to protect about £200 million of Gentleman cite Lord Lawson. I am not sure that the revenues per annum from tax avoidance. Clause 8 sets Labour party cited that example in its Budgets. There out an anti-avoidance measure to prevent matched income are various technical reasons, which have just been and expenses from being derecognised in a company’s discussed, and which my hon. Friend the Exchequer accounts. That will ensure that income from financial Secretary will explain in his closing speech. The basic instruments such as loans and derivatives can no longer point is that our method is more business-friendly. be excluded from the accounts and go untaxed. As a first step, clause 1 reduces the main rate of Clause 9 sets out a further anti-avoidance rule, building corporation tax from 28% to 27% from 1 April 2011. on section 47 of the Finance Act 2010 to prevent life Consequently, the corporation tax of around 47,000 insurance companies from avoiding tax on previously companies will fall. The Budget also supports Britain’s unrecognised profits. It will do so by ensuring that small businesses by cutting the small companies rate of section 47 will be effective in cases in which life insurance corporation tax from April 2011, reversing the previous business is transferred to another company. We will Government’s plans to increase the small companies take further measures in future to tackle avoidance. In rate. That will benefit some 850,000 companies. The particular, a consultation on a general anti-avoidance Budget takes action to stop the previous Government’s rule was announced in the Budget. job tax by increasing the threshold for employers’ national insurance contributions, thereby lifting 650,000 employees Kate Green: How will the welcome measures to reduce out of that tax. Of course, a separate Bill will deal with tax avoidance be squared with job cuts in HM Revenue that. and Customs? Taken together, those measures offer a stable and consistent platform for a private sector recovery. Danny Alexander: On the plans for HM Revenue and Customs, I am confident that the anti-avoidance measures Clive Efford rose— are deliverable and can be expected to yield the amount that I described. Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab) rose—

Kelvin Hopkins Will the Chief Secretary give way? Danny Alexander: I will not give way. Clause 7 amends the tax rules for the expenses incurred Danny Alexander: No, I have given way nearly 30 times by Members of Parliament, following the creation of already. Thirdly, the emergency Budget stands for freedom the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. because it frees businesses to go for growth. A genuine I know that that is of interest to many Members. The and long-lasting economic recovery must have its clause will broadly have the effect of maintaining the foundations in the private sector. That is where jobs will tax system and treatment that applied to similar expenses come from, and we will do everything we can to support paid under the previous regime. their creation. That is why the Budget sets out a plan to open Britain for business once more. Mr Kevan Jones rose— We will open Britain for business by creating a more competitive system of corporation tax, reducing the Danny Alexander: I will not give way on that. The rate from 28% today to just 24% over four years. It will hon. Gentleman can make his points in the debate. give us the lowest rate of corporation tax of any major The emergency Budget takes decisive action to tackle western economy, and one of the most competitive the deficit that we inherited and to confront the greatest rates in the G20. economic risk to our country. It is tough, but it is fair. We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Why does the Bill national debt by the end of the Parliament. We have to legislate for only one of those changes, not all four? pay the bills of past irresponsibility, but in doing that, we have ensured that those with the broadest shoulders Danny Alexander: It is good to see the right hon. carry the greatest share of the burden. Gentleman in his place; I welcome him back to the The Budget and the Bill represent a break with past House after the experience that he had, for which traditions. They demonstrate a genuine shift in approach Members of all parties feel enormous sympathy. from that of the previous Labour Government. Our As I understand it, the practice in Finance Bills is to decisions are in the best interests of the economic cycle; legislate one at a time for the changes that are needed in those of the previous Government were dominated by 209 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 210 the news cycle. Our actions are based on hard facts and the worst outlook for a year and a half. Therefore, we the real world; theirs were based on wishful thinking cannot blame British businesses, investors and exporters and, in some cases, complete denial of the economic for being somewhat depressed. They know that the reality. We have been guided by independent forecast, odds of success in the gamble on which the Chancellor not political whim. We are acting responsibly; they has embarked are slim, and they know very clearly who remain in the mindset of profligacy, which led them to will pay the price for his failure. make spending promises that they knew could not be kept while they were in government. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): The previous The Opposition now say that they will oppose many of Labour Government said that they would halve the our measures, but without giving any indication whatever deficit in four years. What spending cuts and tax increases of what they would do instead—not a single suggestion. would they have introduced if they do not like ours? They are in denial; the Government are facing up to reality. The provisions in the Bill are fair. They will help Mr Byrne: The right hon. Gentleman has today put to put our public finances on a solid footing and provide out a number of very constructive suggestions—for a strong platform for economic recovery. I commend example, urging people hit by budget cuts to wear more the Bill to the House. clothes, to turn down the thermostat and to eat more vegetables—[HON.MEMBERS: “Withdraw!”] I am merely Several hon. Members rose— quoting the Daily Mail, which is a source I trust—it is, of course, beyond reproach. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I should inform the House that Mr Speaker has not selected the amendment. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Obviously the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) used the Daily Mail. I am sure that it was not meant with 5.15 pm intent, and that we can be a little more careful in the Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): way that we proceed. May I begin by putting on record the Opposition’s thanks to Sir Alan Budd for his excellent work in the short Mr Byrne: I will learn never to trust a word I read in months that he has served the Government? May I also the Daily Mail ever again— congratulate the Chief Secretary, who is rapidly becoming one of the Chancellor’s longest-serving advisers? After Mr Redwood: The Daily Mail withdrew the article his performance this afternoon, I think we can see why from its website because it was untrue. that is. He is pursuing what is now a noble Liberal Democrat tradition of fronting up some of the Mr Byrne: Well, that rather proves my point— Government’s nastiest and most regressive policies in [Interruption.] the House. His speech was a Liberal Democrat defence of an emergency Budget—an emergency so great that Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor could not be bothered to join us this should withdraw that comment if it has been withdrawn afternoon to listen to the House’s deliberations. from the website. It is fair to say that since we met last week to debate the Budget, the economic horizon has darkened. British Mr Byrne: I am happy to withdraw comments published families and businesses fought so hard in the past year in the Daily Mail. and a half for this country’s recovery, but the Bill puts The point that I was about to make was that the all that at risk. We can see from the Bill that the business community, having had a chance to reflect on Chancellor would like us to believe that size is not the Budget, has come to some conclusions, and I was everything—although it is very thin, it is none the less surprised not to hear about them in the Chief Secretary’s very dangerous. remarks. A fortnight ago, the Chancellor told us that We all enjoyed the Chief Secretary’s summary of the Budget was business opinion, but Opposition Members thought it “a balanced package that will send the signal that Britain is open odd that he missed some of the news that has appeared for business.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 176.] since the Chancellor gave his Budget speech. The truth In the weeks since, it is fair to say that business has not is that, as we warned last week, the dangers in the global been hanging out the bunting. The stock market has economy have become not less visible—they have not now recorded its worst quarterly fall for eight years, as ebbed away—but, if anything, become more visible and it fell to its lowest point for 10 months. Goldman Sachs more dangerous. This week, for example, the news from has warned that tighter fiscal policy now our trading partners and from the United States, which is our single biggest export market, has not been good. “would make it hard to deliver improving growth for all, or Factory orders in May dropped after eight consecutive possibly any” months of improvement, and confidence surveys last country. The chief economist of the British Chambers week showed the biggest falls for some time—far bigger of Commerce has said that the scale and severity of the than expected. Budget Last week, we heard that the number of Americans in “inevitably increases the danger of an economic setback”. work has fallen by almost the largest number since The Chartered Institute for Purchasing and Supply has 1995, and new figures for the eurozone show unemployment said that its managers have stuck at more than 10%. The news from new markets is “voiced grave concerns that budget cuts and VAT will tip the likewise not great. China’s stock exchange hit a 15-month scales and amplify the likelihood of the UK slipping back into low yesterday, and confidence surveys have reported recession”. 211 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 212

[Mr Byrne] Make no bones about it, since the Chancellor sat down a fortnight ago, the gloom has grown. However, The confidence of Britain’s finance directors has fallen the Finance Bill does not adjust the Government’s to a 12-month low—just one in four is optimistic, and strategy. All we have heard from the Chief Secretary two thirds say that tighter fiscal policy will hurt their this afternoon is a very clear economic credo: where business. Yesterday, the confidence of Britain’s supply there is worry, let us spread fear, and where there is risk, chain had its largest monthly fall since 1997. It is for let us bring danger. Whereas the Labour Government those reasons that a wise man once said that planned to halve the deficit in four years—a plan that “the next government has to recognise the fragility of the economy the Chancellor’s own independent advisers said we were and not take action which would precipitate a double dip recession on track to deliver, and which the G20 said met its leading to more unemployment and even bigger budget deficits.” timetable—this Chancellor has added nearly £40 billion That was, of course, the Business Secretary in April—once in new tax rises and spending cuts. He has locked us on a prophet and now a lost cause. a course to slash away come what may, and, in a world full of risk, he is now preaching to others to do the same. Mr Kevan Jones: Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the important sectors in the economy is the service sector? Has he seen the Markit/CIPS purchasing Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Do the manager index this month, which has recorded its largest recent figures for the motor car industry not show that drop in confidence in the last 14 years? the previous Government were on the right course for an economic recovery, and does my right hon. Friend Mr Byrne: That news was somehow absent from the not agree that a £360 million cut in Coventry’s schools Chief Secretary’s remarks. He and the Chancellor may programme will have a devastating effect on the schools now think that everything is fine. I know whose verdict and construction trade there? I am sure he knows that I would rely on, and it is not the Chancellor’s. the construction trade always leads economic recovery. I do not want to depress the House unduly and I have a little bit of good news— Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is right. One reason the British supply chain is now so worried about the Barry Gardiner: Will my right hon. Friend confirm Government’s intentions is that it has seen these knee-jerk that the real point is that if we should slip back into reactions, such as yesterday’s decision, of which the a double-dip recession, the coalition’s efforts will be Chief Secretary was so proud he did not dare come to null and void, because they will not have been able to the House to say a word about it. address the deficit as a proportion of GDP? I want to make a point that follows on from what my hon. Friends have said. Rather than balancing spending Mr Byrne: That is precisely right and I will have more over the economic cycle, we now have, in the Budget, a to say on that in a moment. plan to eliminate in just five years the structural deficit. However, the Finance Bill ignores the question of what I promised a ray of good news among all the bad happens if growth is weaker than expected. It is worth news and depressed expectations from the business for a moment the House exploring the economic community. A command paper was sneaked out last consequences of this Chancellor’s proposals. If growth week. It had barely a press notice—it ran to a grant fails, the structural deficit as a percentage of our economy total of six lines—and there was no written ministerial goes up, yet the timetable for its elimination remains statement with it. What could justify such secrecy? All is unchanged, so the Chancellor’s only course of action is revealed on page 52 of the public expenditure survey, to cut deeper and deeper. If growth falters or the published last week, wherein we discover that Departments economy shrinks, the Chancellor cannot stimulate the under Labour’s management underspent their budgets economy, but can only respond with cuts. It is not a last year by £5 billion. Anyone would think that the plan to manage the economic cycle; it is a plan for an Government wanted to keep that news secret. In a economic death spiral. Like some kind of self-flagellating knee-jerk response yesterday, they decided to cover it up penitent who believes borrowing is so morally wrong, by announcing another £1.5 billion of spending cuts he responds to any new urges with another bout of instead. whipping. He might feel it gets him to heaven a little faster, but I am afraid it is no way to run an economy. Derek Twigg: In Halton, £168 million of the Building Schools for the Future project was cut yesterday. The Mersey gateway has been postponed, and if it is cut it Charlie Elphicke: I enjoy the right hon. Gentleman’s will take the total loss of investment—in that one thirst for talking down the economy, but how many area—to £0.5 billion. In an area like Merseyside and independent economic forecasters are predicting the Cheshire, which especially needs that investment, that double-dip recession that the Labour party seems to will be a massive blow to the construction industry. constantly hope and pray for? Does not it also underline the fact that public expenditure provides private sector jobs? Mr Byrne: I note that the hon. Gentleman was so eager to participate in this debate that he missed the Mr Byrne: One of the great flaws in the Budget is that beginning of it. The words I used were not my words, the Government are relying on a bounce-back in private but the words from a wide section of the British business investment, for which there is barely a precedent, and community. [HON.MEMBERS: “Who?”] Well, Goldman nor is there any evidence from the business community Sachs, the Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply, that it might happen. and the judgment of the stock market. This is not a 213 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 214 perspective held by a narrow corner of the business Stewart Hosie: Although the right hon. Gentleman’s community. The judgment on this Budget is widely excoriating attack on the coalition Government is pretty shared across this country. accurate so far, will he confirm that we had a balance of trade deficit in goods last year of some £82 billion, that Ben Gummer: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm Labour lost 1 million manufacturing jobs before the whether it was Goldman Sachs or the chief economist recession and that the impact on GDP growth was to at Goldman Sachs who made those comments? It is an suppress it every year since 2000? Just for the sake of important distinction. accuracy, will he confirm that those figures are right?

Mr Byrne: Absolutely. Jim O’Neill is a very respected Mr Byrne: I have not brought those figures with me economist, he is chief economist at Goldman Sachs, to the Chamber, but the hon. Gentleman will know that and his opinion was echoed by the chief economist at exports from this country have grown strongly over past the British Chambers of Commerce. So this is not a years. That is precisely why, as we came through the narrow perspective from any one particular corner of crash, we said that we needed to rebalance our economy, the business community. This view is widely shared. which is why we fought so hard for investment in companies such as Sheffield Forgemasters and why we Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): We have to accept said that we needed new investment in manufacturing—all that the Prime Minister has kept one promise. He said investment that has now been cut back. that the cuts would affect the north-east of England the most, and that has been proved to be true. The Government Stewart Hosie: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? have cancelled a new hospital, abolished One NorthEast and stopped nearly 100 Building Schools for the Future Mr Byrne: No, I am going to make another important projects, which would have created many construction point, on which the hon. Gentleman might want to jobs in the private sector. Is it not a shame that the comment. The question of business investment is vital—it Prime Minister did not keep the other promise, which relates to the argument at the heart of the Budget—and was that cuts would not affect the front line? I hope that we will have a good debate on it this afternoon. Business investment is the subject of clause Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Like so 1, which offers, I am afraid to say, no salvation through many words that we heard during the election from investment allowances, which drive up investment and those now in government, those ones turned out to be which manufacturers say make the world of difference. rather empty. This is what the senior economist of the Engineering Employers Federation had to say about investment Perhaps we would not be quite so worried about what allowances: we have heard from the Chief Secretary this afternoon “For smaller companies…there will be cashflow consequences if we did not know that the risk of failure for this …that will hurt their ability to reinvest in their own competitiveness.” Budget was so great. The Office for Budget Responsibility, which is supposed to know, has said that there is just a That is because the Government have withdrawn such 40% chance of the Chancellor hitting his growth forecast allowances. for next year, yet the VAT increase in the Bill will tax What, then, of corporation tax? We were promised in consumption so hard that we will be forced to rely on a the Budget a four-year plan to bring down the rate of history-making burst of exports and business investment. corporation tax to 24%, but clause 1 offers us just a Last week we heard that just once since 1966 have we one-year plan. We do not know whether that is a had the kind of rise in investment and exports on which wheeze to avoid an unhelpful valuation of deferred tax the Chancellor will be banking in each of the next three assets—the Chief Secretary to the Treasury was silent years. The House would therefore be right to ask what on that point—but is it not more likely that the Treasury measures exist in the Finance Bill to help. On close is simply hedging its bets? The Government promised inspection, there appears to be no help at all for exporters, us certainty on corporation tax, and all we have got is yet the Chancellor needs Britain’s exporters to grow more risk. The truth is that business is not going to bet their trade abroad by £100 billion for his plan to come on a one-year deal when this country’s recovery demands true. That is the equivalent of our trade with America a longer-term planning horizon. The Chancellor might rising threefold, our trade with China rising by 20 times be a gambler, but Britain’s business community is not. or our trade with India rising by 40 times. It is fair to say that that is not a bet that any of us would take. Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): The business community are not gamblers. In this Budget, they will Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Was my right see encouragement for the bedrock of our economy— hon. Friend surprised when he saw the Deputy Prime namely, small and medium-sized enterprises. Measures Minister in Germany—he is obviously fluent in German, in the Budget such as the small profits rate of taxation but not in economics—persuading the Germans to cut will help 800,000 small businesses across London and their expenditure, when Germany is exactly the sort of the south-east, and the small business rate relief will market that we rely on for export growth? help 48% of the businesses in the region. Is that not the kind of investment that will encourage exports? Mr Byrne: Precisely. We need the German Government to contribute to growth right across the European area. Mr Byrne: It would be, but it appears to be absent One would have thought that the Deputy Prime Minister from the Bill. might have a word to say about encouraging the German The economic gamble that the Chancellor has taken Government to do more to help British exporters, but in the Budget is quite clear to the business community there we are—not a word about that from him. and, I think, to the House. There is also the question of 215 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 216

[Mr Byrne] That is why we are so passionate in our objection to the attack on the poorest people in this country contained who pays. The Chancellor is fond of taking the approach in this Budget. that we are all in this together. One writer called that the equivalent of a chorus line from “High School Musical”. Simon Hughes: I respect the right hon. Gentleman for However, the Finance Bill disabuses us of any notion his constituency commitment to dealing with the poor. that that claim might actually be true. It is now quite Over the period of the Labour Government—during clear that the price of this Budget will be paid by which not everything was done wrongly—the greatest people’s jobs, and that the greatest price will be paid by failure of all was that inequality was not reduced over the poorest in this country. the entire 13 years; in fact, it increased. The rich became richer, the very rich became very much richer, and the Mr MacNeil: For the past five years, the poorest in people at the bottom—pensioners in particular—did my constituency were paying the highest level of tax per not have the protection from a Labour Government litre of fuel in the UK. Is the shadow Chief Secretary that history suggests they could have expected. in any way embarrassed or ashamed that a Labour Government let that happen? Or does he now repent Mr Byrne: I look forward to the hon. Gentleman and support a rural fuel derogation? telling us later how the increase in VAT is going to support the argument that he is trying to prosecute. I Mr Byrne: I look forward to hearing the hon. hope that he will also reflect on the cost of this Budget Gentleman’s contribution to the debate a little later. It to jobs. The official figures for job cuts as a result of this was not quite clear whether he was talking about marginal Budget are bad enough, but the real figures are even deduction rates or other impacts of the tax system but, worse. We have already watched the extraordinary spectacle like me, he will have noticed table A3 on page 69 of the of the Office for Budget Responsibility tell the Chancellor Red Book, which shows that the marginal deduction that employment will be 100,000 lower as a result of rates for people on a 90% deduction rate, for example, Budget measures, but then the real figures were published have not gone down as a consequence of the Budget; in The Guardian—not in this House, but in The Guardian— they have gone up. from which we learned that secret Treasury papers say that the Budget will cost 1.3 million jobs over the next five years. When the Chancellor stood at that Dispatch Stephen Hammond: We know from the note that the Box a couple of weeks ago, he told us that he would not right hon. Gentleman left for the Chief Secretary that it hide things in the “small print” and that he would give it clearly would not have been he who paid. Will he tell the to us “straight”; he was so straight and so open that he House exactly where the £50 billion of cuts would have kept the Treasury advice out of the Budget altogether. come from under a Labour Government, and how the Yet even that picture might not reflect the entirety of deficit would have been reduced? Who would have paid the Budget’s impact. in those circumstances? Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Does my right Mr Byrne: Of course—I shall talk about that at hon. Friend agree that the Liberal Democrats’ comments length in a moment. would have more credibility if they had not spent the six or eight weeks before the general election arguing very Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) accurately and articulately against the very Budget they (LD): Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that his have just helped to deliver? attacks might just begin to be credible if Labour’s record were not so dreadful? Inequality increased, the Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Some link between earnings and pensions was never delivered, Front-Bench Labour Members believe in redemption, child poverty was not reduced over the whole period of and we have not given up on the hon. Member for the Labour Government, fuel poverty increased and Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). That poor people on low incomes were not taken out of tax. is why we are looking forward so much to hearing his Where is the credibility in that? This Budget will clearly contribution later this evening. [Interruption.] I hope deliver a fairer outcome than the one that his Government he is not going to dispel the image I have of his virtue left us with. and integrity.

Mr Byrne: I was empathising with the hon. Gentleman Simon Hughes: We all believe in redemption. until his final sentence. As he will know, over the past 10 to 15 years up to 2006, just four countries out of the Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that we can stick entire 20 or 30 members of the OECD succeeded in to the Bill. We are getting carried off in many directions, reversing inequality. They were Turkey, Ireland, Mexico and I am sure that hon. Members will not want to do and the United Kingdom. The attack on inequality was that. always a central mission for the Labour Government. Yes, of course we wanted to go further, but we were Simon Hughes: May I say to the right hon. Gentleman proud of our record of lifting 900,000 pensioners and and the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) 500,000 children out of poverty, of legislating to restore that the four major proposals on tax, finance and the earnings link and of introducing innovations such equality with which we went into the election have been as tax credits. In constituencies like mine—and, I suggest, delivered in the Budget? The only one that was not the hon. Gentleman’s—which suffer from a high rate of delivered was value added tax. The right hon. Gentleman unemployment, that help is beginning to make a difference. knows that there is concern about its increase, but he 217 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 218 has heard me say that I believe that, in the event, rather Mr Byrne: I refer to the question of fairness, about which than making further spending cuts, it was the least the Chief Secretary will perhaps say a word. worst option. Danny Alexander: The right hon. Gentleman began, Mr Byrne: I will cling on to my image of the hon. quite rightly, by paying tribute to the Office for Budget Gentleman’s integrity and await his contribution a little Responsibility and the work that it has done. Does he later. I remain convinced that, for him, redemption is accept that the OBR forecasts make it clear that over still possible. the period of the Budget, growth will rise and I was about to say in response to my hon. Friend the unemployment will fall? That confirms—if we are trading Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) that the reality quotes—the view of the secretary-general of the OECD, is that the impact on jobs might be even worse than we who has said that the Budget saw in the Red Book, or even worse than we read about “provides the necessary degree of fiscal consolidation over the in The Guardian, because the Chartered Institute of coming years to restore public finances to a sustainable path, Personnel and Development tells us that it forecasts while… supporting the recovery.” that unemployment could continue to rise up towards That is what the Budget does, and the right hon. Gentleman 3 million. should be welcoming it. This Finance Bill hits growth so hard—this is a point that I hope the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Mr Byrne: The Chief Secretary is a politician who is Southwark in particular will reflect on—that, buried in paid to go to work to make his own judgments in his the back of the Red Book, we learn that the Chancellor and the country’s best interests. He will have noted has had to raise £9 billion of extra taxes to pay for the reference to the growth of business investment and lost growth. That is not cutting public debt, but adding exports in the OBR’s report and its projections for the to it—in pounds and pence and in the unquantifiable future. misery of wasted human lives. It is, I am afraid, a philosophy that is all too familiar. It is a distant echo of Danny Alexander rose— 1992, when a Tory Chancellor told us that unemployment was “a price worth paying”. Back in 1989, another Tory Mr Byrne: In a moment. He will know, too, that in Chancellor, the now noble Lord Major— only one year since 1966—which is when the Library started to compile figures for business investment— Simon Hughes: Sir John Major. Danny Alexander rose— Mr Byrne: Quite right. Sir John Major told us: “If it isn’t hurting, it isn’t working”. Mr Byrne: In a moment. In only one year, 2005, did business investment grow by 1.7%. This Bill, and this Budget, will hurt all right—hurt the recovery; hurt families; hurt pensioners; and it will not work, as it will put people out of work. Danny Alexander rose—

Charlie Elphicke: Perhaps I am just confused, but I Mr Byrne: I ask the Chief Secretary to be patient for am looking at the OBR table C.2 and it seems that ILO a moment. The last year in which exports grew as a unemployment and the claimant count will be falling percentage of our economy in anything like the way over the course of this Parliament. Will the right hon. that the OBR projects for the next few years was 1974. Gentleman confirm if I have misread the table? The Chief Secretary is relying on a unique combination of the business investment that we saw in 2005 and the exports that we saw in 1974. He is assuming that they Mr Byrne: In preparation for this debate, the hon. will come together in perfect harmony in each of the Gentleman will have compared those employment forecasts next three years. I must say to the Chief Secretary, very with those in the March Budget and will have noticed, gently, that that is a bit of a gamble for him to take. like the rest of the world, that they are now 100,000 lower. Danny Alexander: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that it is the independent Office for Budget Mr Kevan Jones: Does my right hon. Friend agree Responsibility—which I think he welcomes—that forecasts that the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development that growth will rise over the current Parliament and not only made predictions on unemployment, but also that unemployment will fall? Does he accept that, yes said that the Government’s targets for job creation were or no? not achievable? Its chief economist, John Philpott said: “There is not a hope in hell’s chance of this happening.” Mr Byrne: It is not a great triumph for unemployment to fall as an economy returns to growth. The point that Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Very I was making is that employment in this country is few people in the country believe the Budget’s forecasts lower as a result of the Chief Secretary’s Budget, that for employment growth, which is not surprising given growth is lower as a result of his Budget, and that the how hard the Budget is hitting growth. Budget hits the economy so hard that he must raise I want to move on from the economics of the Bill, another £9 billion of taxes, although the Chancellor and the possibility that it may work, to a wider question refused to admit it at the Dispatch Box. that I know we will want to debate this afternoon. I now wish to turn to a question to which I hope we will devote quite some time today: the wider question of Danny Alexander rose— why this Finance Bill is so unfair. We now have the 219 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 220

[Mr Byrne] Mr Byrne: Let me come to that point in a moment because—[Interruption.] I will answer the right hon. judgment of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which tells Gentleman’s question after touching for a moment on us that the Budget is so regressive that its only redeeming some of the questions that we will raise in this debate features are Labour policies. Age Concern tells us—clearly, and in Committee next week. We will want to press the starkly, urgently—that it will put older people’s lives at Government on their clause without a mandate. We will risk. The Child Poverty Action Group tells us that it want to know what studies have been conducted, as will will drive poorer parents into the arms of loan sharks. many Back-Bench Members in the coalition party, on The House of Commons Library tells us that nearly the impact of the new VAT on Britain’s poorest families. three quarters of the £8 billion tax and benefits bill will We will want to know the impact on pensioners, children be paid by our country’s women—and that is before we and child poverty. We will want to know whether all get to VAT. zero-rated goods will remain zero-rated for the course Clause 3 is the clause that deals with VAT, and I think of the Parliament. We will want to know whether all it fair to say that it is the clause without a mandate. exempt goods and services will remain exempt for the I have come to learn that, after nearly 30 years in the course of the Parliament. We will want to know how House, the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old much the Chancellor has short-changed our pensioners Southwark did not get where he is today without knowing by uprating pensions this September and then legislating what makes his party tick. I believe that when he said, a for higher prices in January. We will want to know his week before the Budget, estimate of the growth in black market trading through increasing the rewards for unregistered traders. We will “I hope we don’t have a VAT increase because it is the most regressive form of tax”, press the Government on those questions during discussion of clause 3. he spoke for the majority of his party’s voters and his party’s members. Before too long, those words will We will also want to know the answers to questions come back to haunt the Chief Secretary and the rest of on other clauses. Why does clause 1 make corporation the occupants of the Treasury Bench. tax less certain when we were promised clarity? Why is the measure silent on the regime for North sea oil? Why Back on 7 April, the Deputy Prime Minister warned does clause 2 complicate the tax system when we were us about hikes in VAT. He said promised simplicity? In respect of clause 4, what assessment “let’s remember, it is a regressive tax”. has been made of the impact of insurance costs for He was right: it is a regressive tax, and we now know low-income families? Will the reform of pension tax that he is a regressive politician for supporting it. relief bring in as much as Labour budgeted for? Will the I think that it is fair to say—I feel that I can say this plan be as fair? among friends—that I know a thing or two about The great tragedy of the Budget and the Bill is that writing something and regretting it later, but the Liberal there is an alternative, so let me deal directly with some Democrats did not just write a silly note. They unveiled of the questions raised by Government Members. In a whacking great poster on a lorry saying, “Tory VAT March, my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor set bombshell”. Little did we know that they would be the out the fastest and clearest deficit reduction plan of any ones not only to prime it, but to set it off. country in the G7.

Mr Redwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): There wasn’t any detail.

Mr Byrne: I will in a moment. Mr Byrne: I hear what the hon. Lady says, but she has of course read chapter 6 of the Budget of March 2010 If Members go to the Deputy Prime Minister’s website— and, like me, she will remember that there was £3.5 million for those who do not have the address, let me be helpful, in savings by holding down public sector pay; there was it is nickclegg.co.uk; it is not a site that I visit quite as £1 billion in savings through the reform of public sector much as I used to—they will see that that famous poster pensions; there was £5 billion in savings through cuts to saying, “Tory VAT bombshell” is still on the website, lower-priority programmes; and there was £11 billion in available to download. The Liberal Democrats cannot savings by revolutionising Whitehall. There was also the kick the habit of saying one thing and doing another. promise of a benefits bill that would have been £14 billion lower through falling unemployment, which was only Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Does my right possible as a consequence of growth. She will also hon. Friend share the astonishment of the 87% of the remember the precision with which we set out £19 billion- electorate in the Chief Secretary’s constituency who did worth of tax increases, which unlike this Bill, did not hit not vote Tory at the last election but see him fronting up the poorest in her constituency or mine. a VAT rise to 20%? We know that Governments have to govern, so our opposition to the Bill will be careful, but Labour Members Mr Byrne: Yes, and the electorate will hold the Chief will stand up for jobs and for fairness. That is why we Secretary to account at the next election. will vote against the Second Reading of the Bill. Mr Redwood: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain 5.54 pm why putting VAT up by 2.5% before the recession was scarcely over, as the Labour party did in government, Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): The Bill is short, and I was a good idea and did not destabilise the recovery, but will keep my remarks short in keeping with the Bill’s putting it up another 2.5% to pay all the previous size. This is a coalition Bill, just as the Budget was a Government’s bills, which Labour still will not tell us coalition Budget. It incorporates Liberal Democrat policies how it will pay for, is a bad idea? such as our policies on capital gains tax, raising the 221 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 222 earnings threshold and the restoration of the earnings Jonathan Edwards: Does the hon. Lady agree that the link. It also incorporates elements of Conservative policy, regionalisation of corporation tax would be a more which is right because that is what a coalition does. In helpful way to assist the most disadvantaged parts of some respects it is a bit like Hovis, which calls its mix of the United Kingdom? white and brown bread “Best of both”. That is what we have in the Bill. Lorely Burt: The hon. Gentleman asked me about the Among the Bill’s main elements is the capital gains regionalisation of corporation tax, but these are UK tax increase from 18% to 28%. The Liberal Democrat taxes so it is inappropriate to regionalise. He makes an policy would have taken it further, but we could run interesting point that I have not considered before, but into the law of diminishing returns. We need to be not I am sure that my hon. Friends will take an interest in only practical but fair. It is fair because the well-off, the idea if it has merit. who pay less tax than those who clean their offices, will start to pay a lot more tax. That loophole was never Simon Hughes: My hon. Friend is right. I just wish to closed by the Labour party, and the measure will make say to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and a big difference in fairness and in the level at which Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) that, as he knows, my those well-off people pay tax. party has been supportive of increasing autonomy and self-government in Scotland and in Wales. That has The entrepreneurs relief should be welcomed by hon. happened in Scotland and it is on the agenda for Wales, Members on both sides of the House. and he knows—[Interruption.] It is on the agenda for Wales; it is not agreed and it is not committed, but it is Mr Kevan Jones: Does the hon. Lady agree with the under discussion in relation to Wales. He knows that my Deputy Prime Minister, who before the election, on the party has always been positive towards the idea of Radio 4 “Today” programme on 7 April, described VAT allowing greater self-government, both in Scotland and as a “regressive tax”? in Wales, but that is different from the regionalisation of UK taxes such as corporation tax. Lorely Burt: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I am dealing with entrepreneurs relief Mr Kevan Jones: On a point of order, Mr Deputy at the moment, but I will be pleased to deal with VAT, Speaker. Is it in order that the Liberal Democrats which I will speak about quite fully, later. I know that should now have two Front-Bench spokespeople on the the Labour party has had great fun bashing the Liberal Treasury? Is it completely out of order for the hon. Democrats over VAT, so I look forward to being taken Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon to task on that. Hughes) to be rescuing and answering on behalf of his The entrepreneurs relief is the reward that business party? owners are due. They often put everything into building a business. That should be recognised. We greatly welcome Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): If I had seen the continuance of the 10% rate and the increase in the anything out of order, I would have called hon. Members lifetime limit for gains from £2 million to £5 million. to order myself. On corporation tax, the reduction from 28% to 27% in 2011, the 1% reduction in each of the following three Lorely Burt: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The years to 24%, and the small business rate tax cut, hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) has intervened contrast greatly with Labour’s tax on jobs. It means that on me twice, so perhaps he would like to join me on we now have the ability to stimulate business, which these Benches and make his contribution. I am sure that generates the wealth that we need to pay for the services he will be making his speech later, and I will have the that we need. We need secure growth for business. greatest pleasure in intervening on him then. Business needs the confidence to invest in that growth. VAT is to increase to 20% with effect from 4 January I come now to VAT.I am sure that the hon. Gentleman— 2011. This is another issue on which the Liberal Democrat bashing by the Labour party has been lengthy.

Mr Jones: Will the hon. Lady answer the question Clive Efford rose— put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who said that the measure in Lorely Burt: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would allow the Bill is for one year only? How will that give confidence me to make a little progress first. [Interruption.] Iam to any business wanting to invest? It will have to take not giving way now, but I promise that I will do so. I decisions on a one-year basis. might even say something that he likes; one never knows. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey Lorely Burt: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman and Old Southwark, I do not think that anyone on raised that point, and that I gave way to him. This is a either the Conservative Benches or the Liberal Democrat commitment. The four-year commitment is in the statement. Benches is filled with any enthusiasm for increasing It is in the Budget. VAT. However, I am not going to rehearse all those arguments, because we know that Labour left the finances Mr Jones: One year. in a far worse state than we originally anticipated. The structural deficit is £12 billion greater than we were led Lorely Burt: The four-year commitment is in the to believe, so whichever way we look at it, the options Budget itself. As the Chief Secretary said, the normal are invidious. A VAT increase has therefore had to be way of doing it is one year at a time. The hon. Gentleman the least worst option, as my hon. Friend has said. can look forward next year, and the year after that and There are mitigating factors, because the VAT rise will the year after that, to a further 1% reduction. not come into effect until 2011. Therefore there will be a 223 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 224

[Lorely Burt] raised. We want to ensure that people can keep more of their own money that they have earned. The raising of short-term boost; consumers who want to spend money, the income tax threshold towards our Liberal Democrat particularly on large items, will be able to do so before target of £10,000—it increases to £7,475—takes 880,000 that increase comes into effect. people out of tax altogether and means that 23 million people will gain an average of £176. That is really Mrs McGuire: Is the hon. Lady seriously recommending important to local people. that to mitigate the impact of the VAT increase to 20%, consumers should wander round Currys and all sorts of Mr Iain Wright: Does the hon. Lady think that the other places before Christmas buying up all the washing coalition Government’s policy on personal allowances machines, tumble dryers, fridges and all the rest of it, for the over-65s is the right approach? just to salve her conscience? Lorely Burt: As I understand it, they are unaffected. I Lorely Burt: The right hon. Lady answers her own wish to say a word about pensions: is it not strange that question, although I was just coming on to this subject. in Labour’s 13 years in government the earnings link When I had lunch with the manager of my local branch was not restored? This coalition Government have of John Lewis last week I asked him what difference the introduced that in their first weeks in government. We VAT increase would make to purchases at his store. He have the triple lock: we have 2.5% or earnings or prices— said, “Well, when it went down it didn’t make a whole lot of difference to sales. When it goes up we don’t necessarily think it’ll make a whole lot of difference, Clive Efford rose— either.” Lorely Burt: I am going to make a bit of progress. Several hon. Members rose— Before Labour Members leap to their feet to criticise, they should reflect on the fact that they had 13 years in Lorely Burt: I have given way previously, so I ask power and they leave a shameful legacy. It required this hon. Members to allow me to make a little progress. A coalition Government to come into office to introduce lot of people want to speak—[Interruption.] that, and we are doing so in such a short period.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady is not Mr MacNeil rose— giving way. Mrs McGuire rose— Lorely Burt: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The other point that I want to make is that the purchases that represent more disproportionately a part of the Lorely Burt: I have given way to the right hon. Lady income of lower-paid people tend to be zero-rated. already, so I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Kate Green: It is clear that this is the story that we are Mr MacNeil: I have listened to the hon. Lady’s arguments going to hear again and again: we are going to be told for accepting the VAT increase, but over the financial that the items that the poorest need to buy are zero-rated, year the projected deficit fell by about £15 billion to so the VAT rise does not hurt them. How can the hon. £20 billion. Surely that blows apart the Liberal Democrat Lady say that essentials for families, such as saucepans case for accepting a 2.5% increase in VAT. and clothes for work, are items that the poorest do not have to find the money for? This is a regressive tax. Lorely Burt: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is right in saying that, but at the same time we have since discovered that Lorely Burt: The hon. Lady misunderstands me. I a lot more money is not available to us for use. It is not understand that people have to buy all those capital there. Therefore, in order to balance the books it has items, and I know that this is going to be regressive in been necessary to increase VAT. that respect. [HON.MEMBERS: “Oh!”] There is no question or doubt about that. I said to the House a moment ago Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Lady give way? that nobody likes the idea of having to increase VAT.

John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): The hon. Lorely Burt: I am not going to indulge the hon. Lady says that the VAT increase is the least worst Gentleman again, I am afraid. option. Could she list the worst options? We also welcome the postponement to 77 of when an individual can take an annuity, and of course we welcome Lorely Burt: Well, we could have some further job the closing of loopholes and the anti-avoidance legislation; cuts; that would not help. We could just not stimulate everyone should pay their share. That is something that business; that would not help. We could charge lower we as a coalition Government will work hard to ensure. earners more income tax. Hon. Members should not We need tax to be simple and fair and to help us forget that this is the coalition Government who have along the road to recovery. We need the stimulus for raised the level of tax for the lowest-paid earners— business, because business will be the engine that pulls something that the Labour party did not do in 13 years us out of recession. We need fairness on income. We of government. need to close the loopholes; they are already partially Income tax is a very important area in addressing closed, although more work needs to be done. The least issues that the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston well-paid will at least be able to spend more of their (Kate Green) and several other Labour Members have own money. So we on these Benches support the Bill. 225 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 226

6.11 pm VAT and to cut investment allowances for business, and it is a purely ideological decision. They pin their hopes Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): It is a pleasure on an increase in growth, yet even their own leaked to be able to speak in this House again after several Treasury figures tell us that we will lose 1.3 million jobs years of being allowed to say only things like, “Beg to as a result of these measures, not only in the public move” and, “Tomorrow”. I crave the indulgence of the sector but in the private sector. House, as I am not used to making substantial speeches any more. We know already the plans of the Government parties for jobs. They began early on by cutting the future jobs I want to go back to what we have heard over the past fund—118,000 jobs for young people, 18,000 in a region few months from both the Prime Minister and the such as mine, wiped out. I want to quote what the Chancellor. It has been a constant refrain of, “We’re all Liberal Democrat candidate in my constituency, described in this together.” Now that we have seen their Budget on his leaflet as the strong local candidate, said before and the Finance Bill, we can see how hollow that the election. He was so strong that he managed to come soundbite was. What is taking place under this Con-Dem third in the parliamentary election and third in what Government is very simply an attack on the poorest was previously a Liberal Democrat council seat. He people in this country conducted by people who think said: poverty is not being able to afford the uniform for the Bullingdon club. It is an attack on working families on “Lib Dems believe that if you are unlucky enough to lose your low wages conducted by people who are the inheritors job you should be helped there and then to get another one.” of trust funds. It is an attack on jobs fronted up by two Yet the measures in the Bill and the Budget will destroy people—a Prime Minister who got his first job after a jobs and introduce no measures to create them. phone call from Buckingham Palace, and a Deputy Prime Minister who got into the European Commission Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that the because his next door neighbour knew the right man to problem with the cuts announced yesterday in Building ring. If only it was as easy for everyone else out there. Schools for the Future and the massive cuts in local government is the belief “public sector bad, private It is clear from a simple analysis of the Budget that sector good”? A couple of weeks ago, I met the Civil the poorest are affected three times as much by the Engineering Contractors Association in the north-east, increase in VAT as the richest; that the poorest 10% of which told me that its members were relying on BSF the population lose as a percentage of their income and investment in roads. The cuts will have an impact twice as much as the richest 10%. It is significant, when not just on their businesses but on jobs in my constituency. we look at the measures in the Finance Bill, that a private client partner from Ernst and Youngwas quoted Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right. The Treasury’s The Guardian in as saying: own forecast shows a huge loss of private as well as “the fiscal impact on the higher earners is largely restricted to the public sector jobs. Many private firms depend on public increase in CGT together with some fiscal drag caused by the sector contracts to keep going. More to the point, freezing of the higher rate threshold.” enterprise does not flourish when so much money is That is what we are seeing in this Bill. taken out of the economy that it becomes devastated. If the Government cut benefits, freeze wages and cut Mr Kevan Jones: Has my hon. Friend seen the excellent public sector jobs, that does not lead to a vital Library note on VAT? Does she agree that the lowest entrepreneurial culture but to a culture of fear in which 10% of households are worse off because they pay some people do not take risks. 18% of their disposable income in VAT while the richest Let me take one example of the way in which the spend less than 10%? Government have failed to consider the knock-on effect of the Finance Bill. They propose to increase VAT. That Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right. It is often will have a damaging effect on the retail sector, yet that forgotten in the discussion on VAT that much of the sector provides many entry-level jobs and jobs for women spending of the richest households is discretionary, who wish to combine work with looking after children. while the spending of the poorest households is necessary. It provides jobs for the women whom the Government That is what the Government propose to tax. want to get back to work when their children go to school. If those jobs are not there, where will those Mrs McGuire: Given what my hon. Friend has said, women go? There is simply no joined-up thinking here. and what my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) said about the Library note, was she not as Clive Efford: My hon. Friend has moved on from surprised as I was that when I asked something similar investment in the construction industry, but I wanted to of the Prime Minister, he tried to suggest that somehow point out that that industry accounts for 10% of our the increase in VAT would not disadvantage the poorest gross domestic product and public sector expenditure 10% and that the top 10% spent more not only in real accounts for 40% of the activity in the construction terms but as a proportion of their income in VAT? That industry. That shows up the regressive decisions made has obviously been discredited by the Library note. by the Government.

Helen Jones: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Helen Jones: I could not have put the point better That serves to show us the ignorance on the Government than my hon. Friend has. Benches of the lives of some of the poorest people in this country. I could forgive them if their Budget and Simon Hughes: Will the hon. Lady give way? Finance Bill were simply the product of ignorance, but they are the product of ideology. It is the Government’s Helen Jones: In a moment—I will make a little progress decision to take £40 billion out of the economy, to raise first. 227 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 228

[Helen Jones] of the Government, nor the fault of the banks, which brought us into global economic meltdown because of Something interesting is happening on the Government their irresponsible lending and reliance on financial Benches. We used to hear from the Con bit of the instruments that they did not understand. The Con-Dem alliance simple, open hostility to the public Government’s treatment of the banks compared with sector and the welfare state. Now, most of them are their treatment of some of the poorest people is significant. becoming a little more sophisticated and wrapping it up The Chancellor made great play of his levy on the a little better. The Chancellor says constantly, “The banks, which will raise £2 billion a year, but the big five things I’m having to do are dreadful. I don’t really want banks alone will gain £1.6 billion from the changes he to make these cuts. However, if I could cut benefits set out to capital gains tax. No attempt has been made more, it wouldn’t be so bad.” It is an interesting exercise to rein in City bonuses—in fact, rather than coshing the in shifting the blame. The implication is that responsibility banks over the head, he tickled them with a feather lies not with the Government’s decisions, but with those duster. So good was the news for the banks that their in receipt of benefits. shares actually went up. Phil Wilson: In the March Budget, the then Chancellor Compare that with the treatment that the Chancellor offered reform of housing benefit that would have saved has meted out to industry. We hear much about the fall about £250 million a year. This Government have brought in capital gains tax, although the Government are legislating in cuts of £1.8 billion. That is not reform; it is an that for one year only. What we do not hear is that that ideological cut in welfare, which will hit some of the is being paid for by cuts in investment allowances, poorest people in this country. That proves that these which hit manufacturing the hardest. There we have it: are cuts of choice—they did not have to make them to those who want to invest for the long term and capital cut the deficit. intensive industries that want to create jobs in the future will be hit. This is a Bill for industries that are less Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and capital intensive but that are making vast profits—industries I shall talk about the effect after giving way to the hon. that, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies said, are “typified Gentleman. by the financial sector”. What we have here is simple: rewards for those wanting to make a fast buck and a hit Simon Hughes: I did not want to lose the hon. Lady’s for those who are interested in long-term investment. It point about jobs. She is being neither entirely fair nor is the Del Boy Bill—it could have been written by entirely accurate. If she reads the Office for Budget Trotter’s Independent Trading. I am only sorry that Responsibility report at the back of the Red Book—the Rodney has disappeared from the Dispatch Box. independent assessment—she will see it clearly stated on page 82 that Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that “the more rapid increase in employment is sufficient to lower those same banks are continuing to build up their unemployment, so that the ILO unemployment rate falls to 6 per balance sheets by not lending to small businesses—precisely cent in 2015. Claimant count unemployment continues to fall the businesses that need investment now to grow, if we throughout the forecast period.” are to achieve the growth forecasts? There is nothing in The projection—not Government or party political—is the Budget that will force the banks to make sure that that over that period unemployment will go down and vital capital is supplied to those growing industries. employment will go up. Helen Jones: Indeed—that is correct. What is more Helen Jones: If the hon. Gentleman is so confident worrying is that linked with that is the Government’s about that, perhaps he will get his right hon. Friend the failure to provide in the Bill any hope or assistance for Chancellor to publish the Treasury forecasts that he is British firms that want to compete in the global market currently failing to publish. The OBR figures are based and create jobs in the long term. It is a tale of two cities: on forecasts of growth that I do not believe we will on the one hand, there is the City of London; on the achieve because, to be frank, those forecasts have never other, there is Sheffield—what the Deputy Prime Minister been achieved in 40 years. called throughout the election, “my city of Sheffield”. Well, we have seen what he plans for Sheffield—absolutely Clive Efford: Does my hon. Friend find it as curious nothing. The Government’s attitude can be summed up as I do that the figures leaked from the Treasury are in two words: Sheffield Forgemasters. There is nothing produced by the same people who produced the figures in the Bill or in the Budget that helps manufacturing for the OBR, and yet those figures conflict? Is she industry in the long term. confused about that?

Helen Jones: I am extremely confused and rather David Wright (Telford) (Lab): The problem with the surprised that, although the Chancellor said that he Bill is that it is coupled with the total destruction of would make sure that nothing was hidden in the small regional economic policy. It is not just Sheffield and the print and that he would show us all the figures, he north-east that will suffer; every region will suffer because declines to publish the Treasury’s own forecasts. of the virtual destruction of the regional agencies that provide business support and advice and grants to Mr Redwood: Will the hon. Lady give way on that businesses in communities such as Telford. point? Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right. The Bill goes Helen Jones: I want to finish my point first. We are with the destruction of the regional development agencies, talking about an attempt by the Government to switch which were vital to regions such as mine. As my hon. lane by saying that what is happening is not a decision Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) said 229 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 230 earlier, it goes with huge cuts in programmes such as support will be limited to the average mortgage rate, Building Schools for the Future, which were vital to the meaning many families will no longer be able to meet construction industry in our area. their payments. If someone is unlucky enough to lose their job and be out of work for 12 months, even if they Simon Hughes: As one of the three MPs representing have done their level best to find a job and applied for the borough of Del Boy, may I say to the hon. Lady that everything going, and even if there are no jobs, their we on these Benches are clear that the bankers’ bonuses housing benefit will be cut by 10%. That is not a work need to be curbed and reduced further and we will incentive, as the Government seem to think; it will lead continue to press for that? The people who contributed to a spiral of repossessions, homelessness, family stress hugely to our present troubles should pay the price to a and breakdown, which will simply increase the cycle of much greater extent than anybody else. worklessness. Is that really what the Prime Minister meant when he Helen Jones: I am grateful to hon. Gentleman for said that this Government were going to be the most intervening, because I want to say to him that his party family-friendly Government on record? They will not is in government. If the Liberal Democrats want to do be for families in my constituency. something about that, they can, but they have singularly failed to do so. Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend Let us consider the people who are paying the price agree that it is not cost-effective to split up families and of this Finance Bill—those who will be affected by the treat them in that way? The very circumstances that she rise in VAT and who are already being hit by the cuts describes actually cost the state more money. announced by the Government in their Budget. The Chancellor talks a lot about those on benefits. The Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right. If families have implication, unstated but always there, is that they are to be split up, put into emergency accommodation or all scroungers. Nothing could be further from the truth. are trapped in the cycle of worklessness and poverty, Most people who will be hit by the cuts that he has because not having a home makes it much harder to get announced are from hard-working families on low incomes. a job, that not only inflicts appalling circumstances He has already announced that those on family incomes on them, but costs the taxpayer far more money in the of a little more than £15,000 will see their tax credits long run. cut. By 2012-13, anyone with a family income of more than £30,000—£15,000 each—will lose their tax credits. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I Child benefit has been frozen, which is an effective cut hate to bring the hon. Lady back to reality, but the of £116 a year, but those people will have to pay the previous Government halved the amount of manufacturing VAT increase that the Government have imposed on in our economy, from 22% to 11%. Under them, we their spending. built the least number of houses since 1922 in order to support the construction industry, and history will view Mr Kevan Jones: Is my hon. Friend also aware of the many of their so-called investments rather harshly and, fact—unannounced, I think, because it did not get perhaps, as the biggest Ponzi scheme ever, because they many headlines—that the Government are going to cap did not stand up for long once the economic winds mortgage interest relief for those who become unemployed? shifted against them. Will she please remember that? That will affect hard-working people who, through no She will be pleased that one thing that we are not fault of their own, become unemployed, and it will lead cutting is the health budget. As for those suffering from to evictions. That is in stark contrast with the previous, mental health problems, especially selective amnesia, Labour Government, who protected those people. I can see plenty in this Chamber.

Helen Jones: Indeed, and if my hon. Friend will permit Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman ought to be wary me I shall come on to that issue in a moment. of making jokes about mental health. I entered this Before I move on, I want to mention the cuts that will House from a constituency where children growing up specifically hit families with young children, including in 1997 had never known what it was to see someone the scrapping of the baby element of child tax credits in their household go to work. A Labour Government and the scrapping of the new toddler credits for one and changed that and invested in decent homes, but Liberal two-year-olds. That will cost an eligible family more and Tory councils constantly sold the pass on affordable than £1,000 a year, even before they start paying the homes by allowing developers to buy themselves out of price of the VAT rise. their obligations, so we will take no lectures from him on employment or housing. Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right The National Housing Federation states that the to point out the devastating impact on families. Has she Government’s planned housing benefit cuts alone will looked at the serious impact of the cuts in housing put 200,000 more people at risk of homelessness and benefit on households with people who are in work and concentrate social and economic problems in the more households with old-age pensioners? From the housing deprived areas. It is the ultimate Tory nimbyism to want benefit cuts alone, it looks as if 1 million people will to move people out of city centres. They used to say, suffer further reductions of between £500 and £1,000 in “Get on your bike and look for work.” They now say, their incomes. “Get on your bike and get out of my sight, because we don’t want to know anymore.” Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right, because some Someone in London with rent of £350 a week would of the nastiest, meanest cuts in the Budget are to lose £35 in housing benefit if they were unemployed for housing benefit and mortgage support. Mortgage interest 12 months. I ask Government Members what is the 231 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 232

[Helen Jones] Obviously, the scepticism among those on the Opposition Benches arises because Labour Members have not jobseeker’s allowance for a single person? Anyone? No, understood one fundamental thing. The economy was I thought not. It is £65.45 a week. If those people meet so badly damaged and devastated by what happened in the shortfall in their rent, they will be left with £30.45 to 2008-09 that it can indeed, I am pleased to tell the live on, to buy food and clothes and to pay for utilities House, have a recovery based on higher exports, higher and the increased VAT rate that this Government will manufacturing output and higher service sector output— impose on them. Not only is that not the mark of a because the outputs were so badly hit in ’08-’09. That civilised society, but it leaves those people with less money does not mean that we will go into a new utopia or to live on in a week than many Government Members suddenly into overdrive with superbly high growth rates; would spend on a meal—a lot less in some cases. it means that we will start recovering from a disastrous banking crisis and recession, which some of us felt were Mr Kevan Jones: My hon. Friend provides the example made far worse by the policies and antics of the Labour of London, but on Friday I met the chief executive of a party when it was in office. local housing organisation who told me that she is To try to buttress its double-dip case, the Labour unsure of what the cap will be on rents in Durham. If it party is now saying that the true Treasury forecast says is as low as £57 a week, which has been mooted, she says that, far from there being a drop in unemployment, large numbers of individuals will have to make up the there will be 1.3 million job losses and that somehow difference and some, including pensioners, will be evicted. my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Treasury are trying to conceal that. As I understand it, the leak to Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right. It will also The Guardian was misjudged because it was a working cause huge damage to social housing providers, who paper with lots of errors in it. The proper expression of will face more and more arrears. That is the problem Treasury opinion was passed to the Office for Budget with the Finance Bill and with the Budget. They do Responsibility, which is manned by people of independent nothing to create the jobs that the Government tell us judgment who could ask the Treasury for all the details we need, and they squeeze the poorest. that they wanted about its workings, and could use the Let us look at what the Government plan for disabled Treasury’s own models. They came to the perfectly people. The vast majority of people with disabilities sensible conclusion, shared by most other forecasters, would like nothing better than to have a job, and the that there will be nothing like that degree of job loss previous Government did much to get them back into and that unemployment will indeed fall over the period work. However, this Government plan what they call a of the forecast. simpler process—something that they say will reduce dependency and promote work. But the major flaw is Kelvin Hopkins: The right hon. Gentleman has paid a that getting people with disabilities back into work is glowing tribute to the Treasury. Was it not the Treasury not a simple process. What happens to those with that advised the 1979 Conservative Government, who fluctuating conditions or mental health problems? They drove us into a massive recession, with 3 million cannot be assessed by a simple test; that is exactly the unemployed? Was it not the Treasury that advised the point. We are bound to conclude that it is simply an then Conservative Government to go into the exchange exercise in cutting the budget by £1.4 billion. rate mechanism and cause 2 million to be unemployed? There will be no jobs if we go down the road suggested Did not the Treasury get things wrong time and again? by the Bill. At the end of that road, we encounter the Is the right hon. Gentleman not praying in aid an risk of a double-dip recession, billions being taken out organisation that has demonstrated its failure over and of the economy, the poorest and their spending attacked over again? and reduced, and major cuts in benefits. That will not support the economy; it will undermine the growth of Mr Redwood: The hon. Gentleman is making my case the economy. I say to my hon. Friends that this Finance for me; I am saying that the 1.3 million forecast figure Bill risks devastating the economy, dividing communities was an error, and that it will be seen as such. He rightly and producing the kind of recession that we saw in the says that the Treasury can make mistakes. On this 1980s. That is not a risk that we Labour Members are occasion, we are pleased to say that an independent prepared to take, and that is why we will vote against judge outside is reviewing all the facts and figures and the Bill. the working papers and coming up with a forecast that reflects the views of many more people outside the 6.40 pm Treasury. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I remind the Owen Smith: Given the right hon. Gentleman’s admission House that in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests that the OBR’s forecast on job losses may be wrong— I have declared that I offer business advice to an industrial [Interruption.] Well, if he was not implying that, that is and an investment company. what I took him to be implying. Irrespective of that, In this debate, the Labour Treasury spokesman wanted I want to ask about the OBR forecast’s and the leaked to talk the economy into a double dip. He was trying to Treasury document’s anticipation of increases in private create a mood of gloom and doom. He rejected the sector jobs over the next five years. Given the right hon. independent forecasts provided in conjunction with the Gentleman’s long experience of economic matters, will Budget and the many independent forecasts put together he comment on the plausibility of that suggestion, by people outside the House, and sometimes outside the given that during no period in the past 40 years has that country, which all say that a recovery is expected for the volume of private sector jobs been created, apart from British economy over the next five years and that that in the early 1980s—and then only through the fiction of recovery will be led by investments and exports. the privatisations. 233 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 234

Mr Redwood: The point that I have been making for accept the previous Government’s plans for a modest the Labour party’s benefit is that I think it is possible to increase in the capital stock of the state over a period of get a reasonable private sector-led recovery from here, great stress in the budgets. But the cancellation of the because the private sector was so gravely damaged and Building Schools for the Future programme and its battered, and the figures were so awful, in ’08-’09. We replacement with a programme that gives better value are talking about rates of change from a very low base, for money is exactly what we want. The trouble with so it is quite possible for things to get going. Building Schools for the Future was that there were three years of delay and £10 million of consultancy Clive Efford rose— costs before bricks and mortar or steel and glass could even start to be laid. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab) rose— What my right hon. and hon. Friends rightly want to do is cut out all that nonsense, stop wasting all the Mr Redwood: I should like to finish my point. money on the documentation, delays, consultancies and At the moment, there are worries, reflected in the all the rest of it, and have a more straightforward comments made by the shadow Chief Secretary to the approach, so that a bigger proportion of the inherited Treasury, that the clouds may be gathering again in capital expenditure budget can be spent on bricks and the international community, and we need to watch mortar and bricklayers’ wages, as the hon. Gentleman that. I suggest to those on the Treasury Bench that we wants. need to do more work on ensuring that our banks are capable of lending in sufficient quantities so that all the Owen Smith: Is the right hon. Gentleman worried in private sector projects we need and all the private capital any way by the remarks, made during the radio discussion we need for the public projects as well can go forward as that he took part in this morning, about the £50 billion rapidly as possible. of contracts that would be taken out of the construction industry as a result of the cancellation of the Building We can encourage that to happen in many ways. An Schools for the Future programme? Will that not have a important part of the policy is that when we get some detrimental impact on the economy—specifically, on control over public spending and the public deficit, to jobs in construction? instil confidence in the markets, we use those markets for a well financed private sector-led recovery, so that Mr Redwood: Once again, the hon. Gentleman is not we can surprise on the upside in comparison with the listening. I was explaining that the coalition Government fairly cautious figures given by the OBR. I am certainly have made no change to the capital expenditure line not challenging the OBR figures, which are the best that they inherited from the outgoing Government. available at the moment. I would like to think that we What they will do is get more bang for the buck—to get could improve on them over the five years. If we do more spending on construction, relative to the total more about how the banks work and are regulated, so investment line in the Budget. On the radio this morning, that we can accept that they have enough cash and I was able to satisfy the other people in the discussion; capital for this stage of the cycle, and if we allow them the independent forecaster’s overall forecasts for the to get on with the job of lending more money to economy say that investment is going to rise. There will businesses and worthwhile public projects, we can make be an overall increase in investment because more homes progress. will be built over the next five years than the pathetically We can also make a lot more progress in the public low figure that was reached under Labour. There will be sector in respect of the public spending plans published more investment in housing improvement, and more in the Budget. Those public sector spending plans show investment by the private sector. That more than offsets public spending going up every year in cash terms over the decline in the investment programme in the public the five years to which the Finance Bill relates and is sector inherited from Labour. trying to finance. The increases are not very big, so if there were lots of wage increases and a lot of price Mr Meacher: The right hon. Gentleman’s fantasy inflation for the things bought by the public sector, and that there will be a continuation of or an increase in if there were the explosion in benefit claims that Labour capital investment is completely belied by the OBR is wrongly forecasting, there would of course be a big forecast on page 90 of the Treasury Red Book, which squeeze on much valued public services. We Government shows that net investment will fall from £49 billion in Members do not wish to see that any more than Labour the current year to £21 billion in 2014-15. That is a Members do, and I wish that they would not keep colossal drop. pretending that somehow we want to cut the services, because we do not. Mr Redwood: Those are Labour’s figures for the public sector. I have just told the House that I am Grahame M. Morris: Two simple decisions arose from talking about total investment across the economy.Overall, the Budget: the new £464 million hospital north of the the right hon. Gentleman will find in the Red Book that Tees and the £500 million Building Schools for the it is anticipated that the rises in investment elsewhere Future projects in County Durham were cancelled. All will more than offset Labour’s cuts in the capital programme, would have been built by the private sector. How will which we have decided to live with. I should also tell those cancellations assist the growth in the private him that he is quoting the net line when he should be sector, particularly in respect of jobs in my constituency? quoting the gross line. In other words, he is knocking off the depreciation, whereas we are interested in the Mr Redwood: As the hon. Gentleman should be total spend—the gross line, which is much higher than aware, the outgoing Government’s capital spending plans the figures that he has inadvertently, I think, given the have not been changed by this Government. We have to House in error. 235 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 236

Mr Meacher: How can the right hon. Gentleman economy started to grow extremely well, which is exactly believe that private investment will remotely compensate what Labour Members are predicting cannot happen if for this enormous fall in public sector net investment, one starts to get control of public spending. given that household consumption is falling, particularly I urge the Government and the whole public sector to with the increase in VAT, the banks are not lending, and work strongly together to ensure that these modest export markets are fading because of the situation in increases in cash spending translate into maintained the eurozone? Why should the private sector invest in and improved public services, as they can if we take the those circumstances? right action over pay rates, efficiency levels, improved process, investment in technology and so forth. I hope Mr Redwood: That is what I have been explaining to that we will get the banks working better by creating a the right hon. Gentleman. We are in this position because more competitive environment so that we can then have everything has been so awful. The private sector has just the investment we need in the private sector to fill the been through a couple of years when it has invested gap and create the jobs. This is a doable task and a practically nothing because companies could not get feasible profile, and it is backed by the independent any money and were not making much profit. Now, forecaster. We need to be very sure that we are going to profit margins are growing, there is a bit more money pump everything into that task, because recovery is around and they are getting more confident for the what we all want. future. It would be much better if Labour Members got Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): On a point of order, behind their voters and constituents, who want the jobs Mr Deputy Speaker. Has the Secretary of State for that we wish to see created, got behind the recovery that Education indicated to you any desire to come to this everybody else is forecasting, and started to live in the Chamber to explain the situation that has arisen? Following real world. They presided over the collapse. Throughout the points of order that were made by me and two of their years in office, manufacturing fell, whereas in the my hon. Friends, a further list of schools affected by the Tory years before that, manufacturing rose. We want Building Schools for the Future cuts was published this to get manufacturing rising again. From that point of afternoon. That third list reflects 22 errors from the first view, the one good thing that they did was to preside list, which means that a significant number of communities over a collapse in the value of the pound. They probably up and down the country have been affected by the allowed it to collapse a bit too much, and it is beginning chaotic statement about schools made yesterday by the to rise again under the new Government. That gives Secretary of State. Are we to expect a fourth list, given those in manufacturing a huge opportunity to make that there are still some concerns that even the latest list better profit margins, to invest more money, and to may not be totally accurate? If not this evening, then produce more. That is exactly what they are beginning tomorrow, we should expect the Secretary of State to to do, and there will be a beneficial effect. come and explain what on earth is going on in respect of the cuts that are being made to a programme that is Owen Smith: In the light of what the right hon. welcomed in communities up and down the country. Gentleman suggests about manufacturing, is he not Mr Deputy Speaker: I have not received any information worried when he sees the prediction in the Deloitte as to whether the Secretary of State for Education manufacturing index that over the next five years our wishes to make a statement this evening. I remember manufacturing will decline, not grow, and that we will that in the hon. Gentleman’s first point of order for me shift from our admittedly low position of 17th on that he said that he had not received any list; he now appears index to 20th? to have three. I understand that the Speaker has already Mr Redwood: A shift in the relative position predicted made a ruling on this matter. I am sure that if the by someone else does not necessarily mean that Secretary of State does at some stage wish to make a manufacturing is going to decline. The figures in the statement, this House will be informed. official forecast, and I think in most sensible forecasts outside, show that manufacturing will recover from the 6.56 pm very low base that it reached in 2009-10. That is what is Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I intend to needed, and we need to have policies that do just that. finish my remarks by talking about the performance of the Chief Secretary, but I will start by commenting on Mr Meacher rose— what the shadow Chief Secretary said. He rightly pointed out that if the Government did not get the growth Mr Love rose— forecasts that they expected, the only option that they would have in meeting their deficit reduction targets Mr Redwood: I am going to conclude, because many would be to cut more. However, Labour’s policy to people wish to participate in this debate. Labour Members halve the deficit, again in a fixed time scale, suffered may want to be here until 3 o’clock in the morning, but from precisely the same problem. If the growth forecasts they never used to when they were in the dock and did of 3.25% for four of the next five years had not been not allow us the time to debate these things properly. met—indeed, if there had been a downturn—there would The Budget is a necessary evil to clear up the mess have been no room not only for a fiscal stimulus but, inherited from the previous Government. This is a perhaps, for the use of the automatic stabilisers. The necessary task to instil confidence and to avoid interest Government’s plans and Labour’s previous plans have rates going through the roof. Labour Members should that problem in common. look at what has happened in Ireland. Ireland had Let me start by commenting on the things that we extremely big cuts—bigger, I am pleased to say, than agree with in this very thin Finance Bill. I am pleased those in this Budget. In the last quarter, the Irish that the Bill seeks to bring down corporation tax. The 237 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 238 phased reduction in the headline rate will provide an trust funds. We have spoken about savings and savings incentive for businesses to locate in the UK, although ratios in the past, and the Red Book forecasts future I am not convinced that paying for this through the ratios of just over 5%. However, that is about half the changes to investment and other capital allowances savings ratio that the Labour Government inherited might not yet prove to be a problem for growing businesses. and about the average through the whole of 2004 and As the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen 2005. It is not particularly ambitious, if the Government’s Jones), who is not in her place, said, this may help intention was to get the country saving again. businesses that are up and running, but not those that However, the real damage in this Finance Bill, as seek to grow. I am disappointed that she is not here, many Members have mentioned, is the determination to because if she were, I would have the opportunity to ask put up VAT. That directly contradicts the stated intention whether she now regrets the Labour Government’s abolition of both coalition parties to create a fairer society. of the industrial buildings allowance—another key Although it may well be the case that in cash terms the allowance to help industrial investment that went some wealthiest will pay more VAT, it is clear that the poorest time ago. 10% will pay nearly three times higher a percentage of their disposable income than the richest 10%. That is all Mr Redwood: The hon. Gentleman and I made common because of the wrong-headed view, to some extent cause against the previous Government for not adjusting shared by Labour, that deficit consolidation must be for the cycle in their Budget plans. I believe that this achieved quickly. That is based, I believe, on a flawed Government have said that if things were to go wrong assessment of the Canadian model, rather than a credible and we headed into another global recession, they one perhaps based on the New Zealand model, which would adjust the plans accordingly for the cycle. certainly worked. The consequence of the VAT changes, at least according to Save the Children, is that the VAT Stewart Hosie: Indeed. It is worth making the point, bill for the poorest could rise to more than £31 a week. though, that on paper there is a rigidity about this. I remain concerned that if growth forecasts, downrated Mr Kevan Jones: The hon. Gentleman mentions the sensibly, are not met, there will have to be these necessary Canadian model, but does he agree that what we are adjustments. seeing today is very similar to the Canadian model in I welcome the phased reduction in corporation tax, that it was not necessarily just about deficit reduction, but question whether it makes sense to pay for it through but was ideologically driven to reduce the size of the changes to capital and other investment allowances. state in Canada? The Road Haulage Association has said: “We are concerned about the reduction of the investment Stewart Hosie: I think that was certainly a consequence allowance for small firms to £25,000 from £50,000 which will have of the actions that were taken, but the reason I say that a detrimental impact on small haulage companies.” the assessment was flawed is that Canada sat on the That trade body probably speaks for many in its approach northern border of a booming American economy, and to the change to the annual investment allowance. its recovery was export-driven. That was a sensible I am pleased by the way in which the Government approach to take. I would love our economy to be have handled the capital gains tax changes, keeping the export-driven as well, but given that the European rate unchanged for basic rate payers to encourage and Union is our biggest trading partner with more than allow modest investment but increasing the rate for 60% of our goods by volume going there, I cannot see higher taxpayers. Closing the gap removes a perverse how an export-driven recovery can be achieved to the incentive to take income that could be taxed as capital extent that is hoped for. I would love it to be, but from rather than through income tax, but keeps a sufficient looking at the numbers, I cannot see how it will happen. distance between the rates of income tax and capital gains tax to encourage real investment. That was handled Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Gentleman mentioned deficit quite well. reduction. Does he recall that in the post-war era successive I have a question, though, about the rationale for the Governments, Labour and Conservative, maintained a increase in insurance premium tax. I heard the explanation policy of full employment, which saw a gigantic deficit that it has previously mirrored the VAT rate, but there is way beyond anything that we are seeing at the moment no reason why that should still be the case. It will bring being seriously reduced? Does he accept that full in some £2 billion in additional tax over the next five employment, not cutting spending, is the way to reduce years, and I can only hope that that decision does not deficit? come back to haunt this Government in the way that the abolition of advanced corporation tax on pensions Stewart Hosie: I certainly agree that long-term, sustained came back to haunt the Labour Government. The and sustainable above-trend growth is the real answer, Conservative party in particular has made a great many but that is not to minimise the problem of the deficit criticisms about how that pension change was made and the impact that it can have on market credibility and the impact that it had. Indeed, it was a smash-and-grab and the cost of money. I am not one to say that we need raid that the Chancellor described as “disastrous” in deficit or debt at any cost; I am arguing for a credible Accountancy Age last year. I hope that the insurance deficit consolidation plan as opposed to a fixed-term premium tax increase will not be described in that way plan that is inflexible and will not work. in future. The current situation has led to the VAT increase, Incidentally, in the same interview, on 6 October, the and given that the poorest families may now pay more Chancellor also stated his aim to get the country saving than £31 a week, I want to think about the impact on again, which makes it even more difficult to explain the those families. Their unemployment benefits may be coalition Government’s intention to scrap the child reduced in real terms, their tax credits cut and their 239 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 240

[Stewart Hosie] Stewart Hosie: As my hon. Friend says, it will mean £26 million extra on the bill to the NHS in Scotland housing benefit put under real pressure, particularly in alone. We can easily add up the figures for all the public areas where rented housing is expensive. That part of bodies and find out what the real cost of the VAT rise society will suffer most from the VAT rise. According to will be area by area, but we know that it adds up to Shelter, nearly half of local housing allowance claimants £13 billion in total. It makes up more than a quarter of are already making up a shortfall of almost £100 a the additional £40 billion of fiscal tightening that the month to meet their rent. Socially, a VAT increase for Government wish to see in 2014-15. That is £40 billion people who are that hard-pressed at the moment might in that single year, on top of the cuts and tax increases be considered unforgivable. inherited from the Labour party that they intend to keep. There is a huge problem with the VAT component Mr MacNeil: One of the fig leaves that the Liberal of this Finance Bill. Democrats have used to accept the VAT increase has been the argument that they did not understand the Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): By and large, I must nature or size of the deficit until they got into bed with commend the hon. Gentleman for a constructive the Conservatives. However, a glance at the pre-Budget contribution to the debate—we have not had many so report and the Budget shows that the deficit is actually far. Given the amendment that I tabled last Monday £20 billion to £30 billion lower, thereby surely blowing about impact assessments on VAT, what alternative holes in the Liberal Democrats’ argument for accepting would he recommend to fill the hole that would be left a 2.5% VAT increase, which will hit the poorest in our by not increasing VAT by 2.5%, or does he not recommend society. an alternative? Stewart Hosie: I suffer from the advantage of tabling Stewart Hosie: That is absolutely correct. It is a pity many new clauses and new schedules to the Fiscal that there is merely one Liberal left in his place to hear Responsibility Bill to establish a medium-term fiscal that argument. My hon. Friend makes a very good consolidation precisely to avoid the slash-and-burn approach point that the deficit forecast now is less than that of a massive hike in the most regressive form of tax. forecast in the Budget and the pre-Budget report. That Instead of the VAT increase, I would not tackle the certainly confirms the case that we made for a fiscal deficit and debt over a fixed term—certainly not a short stimulus. Another criticism that comes from his intervention fixed term such as the Government propose—but do it is not simply that Liberals do not understand the numbers in the medium term, not least to benefit from the but that the Labour Government left the UK as one of £50 billion of medium-term savings from cancelling only two countries in the G20 without a fiscal stimulus, and not replacing Trident. The Liberals appeared to be fully withdrawing it in 2010 before recovery was secure. in favour of that midway through the election campaign, To wind gently back to VAT, I said that the increase but were not towards the end, when it looked as if their would perhaps be socially unforgivable. It also makes leader would be in a position of some influence and little sense in economic terms. The British Retail Consortium power. I will stop there because the Liberals have had a has described it as “disappointing”, which was something hard enough time, but I will return to the subject shortly. of an underestimate given that it went on to state, It is not simply what is in the Bill that causes problems, bluntly: but what is not in it, and the missed opportunities that “We didn’t want a VAT increase. It’ll hit jobs.” that represents. The reasoned amendment outlines those. Simon Newark of UHY Hacker Young warned that the For example, the Bill could have taken its lead from the rise could push up prices on the high street by about second and final report of the Holtham commission—the 2%, which could have a significant impact on inflation. Independent Commission on Funding and Finance for He went on to warn: Wales—which repeated its call for an immediate “Barnett floor” on departmental expenditure limit payments to “Higher inflation could trigger interest rises, risking the spectre Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen of the double dip recession.” East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) mentioned that Still others are warning that the rise will exacerbate cash earlier. That came a year after the commission’s first flow problems. report recommended that such a floor, which would prevent further convergence between Wales and the Mr Kevan Jones: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman England average, should be a multiple of 114% spending read The Herald of Scotland this morning. He knows in Wales for every 100% in England. The Scottish that I read the newspapers carefully. It states that because National party and Plaid Cymru were delighted that the of the VAT increase, the Commonwealth games in 2014 Chief Secretary confirmed earlier that there would be will cost an additional £20 million? no further convergence in funding for Wales in the next few years at least. I am sure that my hon. Friends in Plaid Cymru will hold the Government to that. Stewart Hosie: That is absolutely right, and VAT will The Bill also missed an opportunity to deliver real not just hit building and the purchasing of supplies for progress on intergovernmental relations with Scotland. the Commonwealth games or the Olympics, and it will The Government could have ensured the release of the not just hit the private sector and families. It will hit the fossil fuel levy—nearly £200 million sitting in a bank public sector, which buys VAT-rated supplies and goods account—without a corresponding cut to the Scottish of all sorts. It will effectively mean spending power block. Such a move would have been welcomed, and going out of the economy and straight to the Treasury. have provided a much-needed boost to the Scottish Government’s attempts to secure economic recovery Mr MacNeil: Such as £26 million on health. and kick-start jobs in the green economy. Better still, 241 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 242 the Government could have moved to a position of full of the UK, and, therefore, for parity, equality and fiscal responsibility for Scotland, so that Scotland would fairness, a rural fuel derogation might rectify the position make all its tax-and-spend decisions and find its own till we approach something fair. I stress the word solutions to ensure that we did not enter another recession. “approach”. There was also an opportunity to deliver a fuel duty regulator—a fuel duty stabiliser—and fair play on fuel, Stewart Hosie: Given that the Bill’s Committee stage not least for the haulage sector. Instead, the Chancellor is three days on the Floor of the House, it is impossible plans to go ahead with Labour’s inflationary package of to amend it as we have previously amended finance three fuel duty increases in the next year. The Road measures to introduce fuel duty regulators or derogations, Haulage Association’s chief executive said that that but my hon. Friend is right, particularly when he talks “will simply further widen the gap between UK diesel duty and of fairness, which is one of the alleged underpinning that of our EU competitors.” principles of the coalition—I hope that members of the Treasury Bench are taking note of all the matters on As my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an which they could deliver fairness, and for which they Iar (Mr MacNeil) said several times, the Government may yet be held to account if they do not. have missed an opportunity for a fuel duty derogation now for remote and rural areas. I hope that that idea The Chief Secretary was unconvincing in his opening has not been kicked into the long grass, never to be seen speech. The Bill is thin and the VAT increase hits the again, and that the Liberals in the Government might poorest—that is unforgivable. Of course, the Budget find a little steel before they are ground down completely, may well prove economically foolish, risking inflation, and deliver something beneficial to remote and rural higher interest rates and recession, and making tackling areas throughout the UK. the deficit and the debt more difficult rather than easier. The Chief Secretary said that what was being done is Mr Kevan Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that unavoidable. None of this is unavoidable. It is a political the proposals in the Bill for insurance premium tax will choice. The proposals are political choices, and I believe affect many of my rural constituents, who rely on cars that the Government have made the wrong choices. We as their sole form of transport? Youngsters will be in the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru will particularly hard hit because they pay a larger percentage oppose Second Reading. through high premiums than other drivers. Cars are not a luxury in rural communities; they are essential items. 7.18 pm Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Stewart Hosie: They are absolutely not a luxury. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to Insurance not only on cars but on homes and foreign make my maiden speech. travel, particularly for those who are slightly frail, is a vital matter. Taking £2 billion out of that sector is If hon. Members googled my name as a new MP, the damaging enough, but if it is a disincentive, which stops first website they would find is that of Steve Barclay, people taking out the appropriate insurance, we could the comedian and cabaret entertainer. I can assure the experience all sorts of difficulties in future. House that that is not me in an unregistered second job. My speech sadly lacks the zany comedy and musical Let me revert to the fuel duty derogation, and read backing that his performances offer, and the current out a quote: headline on his website, “The case for a fair fuel deal for remote and rural communities “Barclay storms the cabaret floor” is absolutely clear. People face longer journeys, much higher pump prices and few if any public transport alternatives. A lower is one that my local paper—the Cambs Times—will rate of fuel duty is already available for remote and island areas in never ascribe to my performance in the House. many other European countries.” It is the custom to pay tribute to one’s predecessor, Those are not my words, but those of the Chief Secretary but in my case, it is a real pleasure. Malcolm Moss to the Treasury less than three months ago on 12 April. represented the constituency of North-East Cambridgeshire I hope that he reads today’s Hansard, remembers those for 23 years with great distinction. He served first as a words and begins to deliver. town, district and county councillor before going on to There was an opportunity, had the Government chosen defeat the talented Clement Freud. He was a Northern to take it, to stick to their own recently published Ireland Minister in the previous Conservative Government stricture in the Spending Review Framework, before holding a variety of shadow roles, including “to protect, as a far as possible, the spending that generates high playing a key role on the Licensing Bill. He was also a economic returns”. senior member of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the They could have done that by keeping tax relief for the previous Parliament. Malcolm was widely liked in the video games industry, protecting more than 2,000 jobs House and locally and he will be very much missed. and creating 1,400 new ones; saving £300 million in North East Cambridgeshire stretches from the investment and encouraging £146 million more; protecting Lincolnshire and Norfolk border all the way down to £282 million in revenue yield and increasing that by the edge of Ely and Peterborough. It is the largest £133 million. However, they did not, and that is hugely constituency in Cambridgeshire, which is the fastest-growing disappointing for that sector and for growth in a modern county in the country. It is perhaps better known by its industry in this country. former constituency name—the Isle of Ely—although it is better known still as the fens. Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend mentioned the rural As I am sure all hon. Members will know, the fens fuel derogation. It is important that the House understands were first drained in the mid-17th century to produce exactly why we in the islands in Scotland feel that we the fertile farming land we have today. It is a distinct deserve it. We pay more tax per litre than any other part landscape, with endless fields, and big skies hosting 243 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 244

[Stephen Barclay] London, yet they are held back by the chronic lack of transport infrastructure. Wisbech, the capital of the blood-red sunsets, beneath which traditional festivals fens, has no rail line when it used to have two train such as the straw bear festival and the rose fair take stations. There is a single-carriageway road, the A47, place. Farming remains a crucial part of our economy, which has not been improved in decades. Its port—the and as food security becomes ever more important, it is only one in Cambridgeshire—was more used even in a vital national asset. Our fields and homes are protected Roman times than today, and some of our villages by the work of the Middle Level Commissioners and around Wisbech get just one bus a week. the many internal drainage boards. I urge the Under- Money needs to be focused on things that can deliver Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural economic return, including transport and our further Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard education college. We also need to use money where it Benyon), not to interfere in those internal drainage will directly save lives. I commend the campaign of my boards, as proposed by the previous Government. That constituent Graham Chappell, who has done so much is currently under review. work to highlight the issue of deep waterways adjacent I want to focus my remarks today on a second to fen roads, where we have had so many fatalities. drainage that is taking place in the fens. This drainage Thirdly, we need to empower our small business base leaves not fertile land, but barren areas, as more and far more. North East Cambridgeshire is not just about more assets are centralised in our cities, paradoxically farming. We have many small and medium-sized businesses, as houses are being built in rural communities. There is such as the high-value engineering firm Metalcraft in a misconception that all rural areas are rich. Eighteen Chatteris. I am delighted that we are expanded the of the 25 most deprived wards in Cambridgeshire are in apprenticeship scheme, but grants can also have a positive fenland, and one in 10 people in my constituency have effect. In the commercial world, the aim is always to used the excellent services of the citizens advice bureau make it easier for customers to access products, and the in the past 12 months alone, 43% of whom did so for public sector needs to do the same. It needs to cut the advice on personal debt—the manager, Linda Hutchinson, duplication and time-consuming paperwork so that does a formidable job. Prosperous areas mask pockets small businesses that do not have specialised staff can of deprivation in rural communities, and often float us access grants. above the aggregate score on which national funding is In more than 80 years, my constituency has had just usually targeted. four Members of Parliament. I hope that it is a tradition The drainage of our amenities continues at a frightening my constituents will continue. I will speak up for this pace: we recently lost our driving test centre even though forgotten fen landscape, which is distinct and beautiful it cost only £11,000 a year in rent; our new further and is not currently getting its fair share of resources. education college was scrapped a month before building We need to target Government spending more effectively, work was due to begin; and local pubs are closing. so that we can unlock the potential that the fens offer There is a battle on to save them, not least Claire and deliver the growth our economy needs. Hammond’s fight to save the Nag’s Head in Eastrea. We now face the risk of the closure of our magistrates 7.27 pm court, adjacent to which is our police station, the cells of which have already been closed. I will discuss this Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I compliment the hon. closure with Ministers in the weeks ahead. As a community, Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) we pay twice as much to the Exchequer in business rates on an excellent maiden speech, which gave us a clear as we receive back in the local settlement grant. It is vision of the opportunities and challenges of his fenland time that the funding imbalance between the rural constituency. His contribution was clear and measured. shires in England and elsewhere in the United Kingdom I thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to is looked at again. make my maiden speech just 23 years to the day after I want to resist the temptation today to focus on the my predecessor, Elliot Morley, made his. What is more, previous Government’s legacy. Anyone in any doubt 6 July appears to be a popular day for novice MPs from can look at that temple of waste, the regional fire Scunthorpe—it was the day on which Michael Brown, headquarters in Cambridgeshire, which was built at a who now scribbles so ably for The Independent, made cost of £23 million and stands empty because the emergency his maiden speech. Elliot Morley served the constituency phone lines cannot be made to work. Instead of large for nearly a quarter of a century as a respected, hard- regional projects, we need to focus spending much more working MP.He rightly gained a national and international effectively to deliver the jobs and services that we need reputation for his steadfast work on animal welfare and in rural communities such as mine. climate change. His record in helping to create a better First, we need to target money more wisely. The world should not be lost in the wake of recent events. Budget was painful but necessary. However, I still feel I am the first MP for 80 years to represent the that there are areas where policy needs to catch up with constituency after an adult lifetime of living and working the new reality.Constituents in North East Cambridgeshire in it. It is my adopted home town, and I love it. The first are staggered that we borrow money simply to give it Labour MP for the area, David Quibell, was elected at away to countries such as China and India, which can the age of 50. He was born in Messingham, which still afford their own space programmes. Likewise, factory lies within the constituency boundary. A passionate workers in my constituency in food packaging, who are early socialist who was active within the trade union on modest incomes, wonder why councils can put as movement and Independent Labour party, he, like me, much as 20% of their total income into staff pensions. knew the constituency inside out when he was elected in Secondly, we need a clearer distinction between 1929 and took his place on the Labour Government investment and spending—the lines have been deliberately Benches in an interlude between failing coalition blurred in recent years. The fens are only 100 miles from Governments. 245 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 246

A contemporary of Quibell said: the increase in VAT as “unforgivable” and has already “He was a revolutionary and a rough customer. If, at his mentioned the analysis of Save the Children. Only meetings, anyone at the back interrupted, he would not think yesterday Flora Alexander of Save the Children said: twice about getting down off the platform and thumping the “VAT is a regressive tax, affecting those on low incomes interrupter.” disproportionately. The 2.5% increase will mean families living in You will be pleased to hear, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I poverty will be put under even more pressure.” do not plan to imitate Mr Quibell’s style in that respect. Save the Children is calling for the poorest not to have My friends tell me that, if anything, I am too consensual to pay the price for the economic crisis. in my approach. In that respect, I follow more in the Neither party opposite told the electorate, “Vote for footsteps of Ian Cawsey, who was the MP for Brigg and us and we’ll put up VAT to 2%, vote for us and we’ll cut Goole until the election. Thanks to boundary changes, public spending by 25%, vote for us and we’ll cancel I inherited the village of Scawby from him. Ian Building Schools for the Future.” My electorate in demonstrated the power of cross-party working when Scunthorpe was certainly not told this by my Conservative he persuaded three other MPs—a Welsh Labour, a and Lib Dem opponents. Scots Nat and a well spoken English Conservative—to The argument that we need to cut fast and cut furiously, join him in the band MP4. Out of those discordant as if it were some virility test, does not have the support political notes, musical harmony came forth, and I am of the electorate. The electorate rejected this Conservative told that their CD, “Cross Party”, can be bought for argument—which was well put by the Conservatives just £10.99. It is still in stock in Oxford street’s HMV, during the election—just two months ago, and instead with all proceeds to Help for Heroes. I hope that hon. supported proposals to tackle the deficit in a measured, Members will not all rush off just yet. proportionate way. I must also mention my friend, neighbour and mentor We should all have the humility to recognise that John Ellis, who represented Scunthorpe from 1974 to there is no mandate for the Budget proposals before us 1979. He does his level best to keep me on the straight today, no mandate for fast and furious cuts and certainly and narrow, but has his work cut out, despairing from no mandate for a huge rise in VAT or for the freezing of time to time at what he sees as my new Labour pragmatism. child benefit—measures at the heart of this unprincipled The industrial garden town of Scunthorpe always Government’s approach. Both the Labour and Lib Dem surprises new visitors with its fine parks, green open parties made it clear—and the public agreed on 6 May—that spaces and magnificent floral displays. Its people are the British economy is too fragile to bear these cuts hard-working, neighbourly and welcoming. There is without plunging us back into recession. That is why much to be proud of. It is home to the world-famous the electorate rejected the Tory offer at the polls. The Corus steelworks, whose track record in producing high public know full well that cuts in the public sector lead quality steel at competitive prices is second to none. to job losses in the private sector. The public are not There are vibrant businesses large and small, from the daft—they know that the private sector prospers when construction and logistics giant Clugstons to the organic it is able to sell its goods and services. With Europe’s farm shop, the Pink Pig, where you can buy, among economies contracting and the squeeze put on the UK other things, pink pigs—the soft, cuddly variety. All economy, individuals and companies will stop spending these businesses are witness to the innovation, hard and jobs will be lost in the private sector to add to job work and enterprise of local people. losses in the public sector. That is what the leaked Treasury papers said last week and that is what I fear—I Scunthorpe boasts a Championship football team—up hope that they and I am wrong. I would rather that the the Iron—and a rugby union team that achieved promotion analysis of the right hon. Member for Wokingham to the national leagues this year, as well as a fine (Mr Redwood) were correct, but I fear that it will prove speedway outfit and a range of other great sports clubs. to be false and flawed. The area also has a vibrant arts, drama and musical community and is home to last year’s BBC choir of the There is no justification for what is about to happen. The year, the Scunthorpe Junior Co-operative Choir. It has well respected economist, David Blanchflower, has said: good schools and two high performing colleges, one of “Economic policy in the UK is being run by a bunch of ideological amateurs who are destined to fail, at enormous cost to which, John Leggott, is renowned for the excellence of the British people.” its education and which I have been privileged to lead as The so-called black hole in our finances is an invented principal for the last four years. story to camouflage the truth and to wriggle out of In addition to those already mentioned, the constituency promises made to the electorate at the election. It is a includes more fantastic towns and villages, Bottesford, story that I have heard before. I heard it on North Kirton, Redbourne, Hibaldstow, Gainsthorpe, Holme, Lincolnshire council when the Conservatives briefly Manton, Cadney and Howsham—all great places to live. took control and went on about a black hole in its All of us, regardless of party or seniority, should have finances. It was not true then and it is not true now. It is the humility to listen carefully to the people we seek to a story, a figment, a fantasy. It is something to con serve. The parties opposite are right when they say that themselves with—I think that they have achieved that—and Labour lost the election. We did, but let us be completely then con everybody else. It cuts no ice with me, nor with honest—no party won the election. Labour lost, the the people of Scunthorpe. While at present it might Conservatives lost and the Lib Dems lost. We all lost resonate with some people, it will reverberate in a most the election. Deals done behind closed doors put together hollow way if this Budget ends up devastating people’s the present ruling coalition, a coalition that—we were lives. I sincerely hope that it does not, because there is promised—would act in the national interest and be no mandate for this and there is no need for this. committed to protecting the vulnerable. Already, few I urge all Members of this House to vote in line with believe that to be true. VAT destroyed that illusion. The the manifestos on which they were elected just two hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) described short months ago. I urge all Members of this House to 247 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 248

[Nic Dakin] East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) said. Without investment in the road and rail infrastructure serving be true and faithful to their promises. I am immensely Ipswich, the many opportunities that the town has proud to have been chosen by the voters of Scunthorpe cannot be fully realised. This is about opportunity. I am county constituency to represent them in this Parliament. not talking about the global sums in the Budget, with I will carry out my duties in line with the promises that which I heartily agree, but I do seek to press Ministers I made to them. To that end, I will vote against the as far as possible to do all they can to bear down on measures in this Finance Bill and I call on all honourable revenue spending, so that as much as possible can be Members to do the same. released within the budget in the years ahead for investment in infrastructure. 7.38 pm Both side of the House agree on opportunity—something Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): I should first of all pay that Ipswich has in abundance. It is a famous manufacturing tribute to the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), town, and was the origin of many of the tools and much who showed in his maiden speech that he will be a of the machinery that brought about the agrarian robust defender of his constituents, even though—if I revolution. Since then it has become a significant service may say so—his grasp of accountancy as it pertains to centre with a beautiful medieval centre that describes the Finance Bill and the proposals of the coalition well the town’s historical importance. Most importantly, Government bears similarities to that of his predecessor it has a significant and important spirit to succeed. It is in his seat. a quiet, East Anglian spirit, but it is a spirit none This is a vital Finance Bill: it is one of the most the less—and it is one that I experienced during my important Bills to come before this House in decades. campaign to save the local hospital, which I conducted The reason for that—contrary to the speeches that we throughout my candidature and which I hope is about have heard from Labour Members so far—is that it puts to come to fruition. right the unsustainable spending that has been the In that campaign I differed from my predecessor, characteristic of Government in the past few years. Not Chris Mole, to whom I pay tribute for bravely giving the only that, it takes the opportunity—which presents ground to me, as a candidate, and allowed me to debate itself rarely to Governments—to reshape the nature of these things robustly in public when many other opponents the relationships between the state, families, individuals would have denied me that opportunity. That showed and communities. Such opportunities are rare, and it is determination and an interest in the democratic process clear from the votes cast at the general election that that that is entirely to his credit. Neither was that his only is a move that the country wishes to see, whether the contribution as a Member of Parliament for Ipswich. votes were cast for one party in the coalition or the other. He made many such contributions to the people of that Many Members have not yet grasped the fact that not town. He was a Minister of the Crown, he served on to use this opportunity would be to condemn future many Select Committees and, most importantly in my generations to the poverty of opportunity that all of us mind, he sponsored the Legal Deposit Libraries Act in our work here wish to eradicate. I ask, therefore, that 2003, which enforced the digital deposit of records in everyone support those measures in the Finance Bill—of the British Library, giving the nation an endowment of which I, for one, believe there are a great many—that which he should be justly proud. are beneficial to the economy. I am not saying that this I am proud of how, during the campaign, we both led is a new problem, nor one that has not presented itself constructive and robust campaigns in which we discussed to this country before. One of my esteemed predecessors issues openly, without ever digressing into unpleasantness. as Member of Parliament for Ipswich was a gentleman That quality is present in this coalition, which is why I called Nathaniel Bacon, who was elected to the 1660 support it so wholeheartedly. Frankly, the great majority restoration Parliament. At that point, the town had two of the public, who have little interest in the eccentric Members—one a cavalier and one a roundhead, which mechanics of politics that interest us so much, cannot is a good simile for the coalition now assembled on the understand why we are so obsessed with bickering Government Benches. In his treatise on government, among ourselves. Through the mere act of overcoming which was well thumbed at the time—it is less so now, our differences in the coalition, we are finding common but I recommend it to all Members—he wrote that cause on the many things in which we have a far greater “it befalls some Princes, as other men, to be sometimes poor in interest: narrowing the gap between rich and poor, the abundance, by riotous flooding treasure out in the lesser currants; reestablishment of the free market economy and all the and leaving the greater channels dry. This is an unsupportable other things that we are doing in the coalition. We are evil, because it is destructive to the very being of affairs, whether doing those things through mature discussion, and already for War or Peace.” my constituents and others to whom I have spoken are That was true then, as it is true now, because the thanking us for that. investment we need to make now to ensure that our I like to think that Ipswich gives us a considerable economy, locally and nationally, grows in the years precedent for the sense of amity between our parties. ahead is prejudiced and put at risk by precisely the Not only do we have a Liberal-Conservative coalition irresponsible spending that we have seen. That is because on the borough council that has achieved considerable by increasing the amount of money we have to put into success, but we had two of Gladstone’s brothers as the revenue account, we deny the money that we should Members of Parliament in the 19th century. One of put towards capital expenditure. That is what I would them, John Neilson Gladstone, was described by a like to address in my first remarks to the Front-Bench biographer—I could not resist this—as follows: team. “He took no strong independent line such as would anger his Ipswich and elsewhere, including other parts of the father but accepted his minor role in the scheme of things.” east of England, need greater investment in transport I can assure the House that on the former point it infrastructure, as my hon. Friend the Member for North should have no fear whatsoever, and on the latter point, 249 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 250

I believe that all of us will succeed only if we show the constituents—in my case, the people of Ipswich. Almost independence and courage of our convictions—something all new Members come to this House lauding their new that the coalition must show in abundance. constituency, professing an ardour that I would not We have heard much over many previous years of the wish to impugn. All I would say is that I cannot claim to tough decisions that face us, but now is the time to take be Ipswich born, even though it is my local town and them, and no issue is more important, pressing or has been all my life, but I can increasingly claim to be necessary than penal reform. The Secretary of State for Ipswich bred. It is a town that I have come not only to Justice, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member respect but to love. It is the most profound honour to for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) outlined brilliantly and bravely serve the people of Ipswich, who put their trust in me in last week a vision for sentencing and for the prison the election that we have just had. I shall do all I can in system that I, and many on both sides of the House, the coming years to repay that trust, and help us all to would wish to endorse. realise the considerable opportunities that lie— Yet to achieve that, we need to find common cause on tantalisingly—ahead of us. two things: the first is on the budget for the Ministry of Justice and prisons. It goes without saying that it is 7.52 pm clearly a gross and offensive waste of public money to Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) be warehousing prisoners in buildings of little utility (Lab): I pay tribute to the three maiden speakers whom save for the security they afford the public in incarcerating we have just listened to: the hon. Members for Ipswich criminals, which in the end produce men and women (Ben Gummer) and for North East Cambridgeshire who come out with a staggeringly low possibility of (Stephen Barclay) and my hon. Friend the Member for finding a job, succeeding in a relationship, building a Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin). I am always struck by how family or contributing to society, and a staggeringly confident, forthright, quite often amusing and, on occasion, high probability—the highest in Europe—of going on even inspiring maiden speakers are. I am sure that we to reoffend and contribute once again to the crime rate. shall hear a great deal more from them all. I also Opponents of reform must consider carefully whether noticed that they all touched on issues of policy. When it is right to continue with a system in which half of I first came to the House, it was a custom that maiden prisoners cannot read at the level expected of an 11-year-old, speakers talked about their constituencies and their 65% cannot count at that level, and 82% cannot write at predecessors, but skirted round any question of policy. I that level. I do not understand how they can possibly am pleased that that rule is obviously now more honoured contribute to their communities, build relationships and in the breach, and I hope that we shall hear much more sustain their families with that level of underachievement. about policy from all the maiden speakers whom we Future generations will look upon our treatment of have heard this evening. prisoners in much the same way as we now look upon how the Victorians established workhouses—as a near barbaric On the Finance Bill, let me start by agreeing with mechanism to deal quietly with one of society’s problems what I can—this part of my speech will be very short. without facing up to the real issues that it presents. I agree that the deficit is too large and that it needs to be We can, I hope, overcome that problem in two ways. reduced. On every other issue—the size of the cuts, The first is to protect in the Ministry of Justice’s budget their composition, their impact on growth, the balance the excellent plans, which we on the Conservative Benches between tax increases and spending cuts, and the whole have had for some years, for the complete restructuring question of fairness—I think that the Budget judgment, of the prison estate. Hon. Members might wish to know as expressed in the Finance Bill, is fundamentally and that 16 prisons in the prison estate predate the reign of manifestly wrong. Queen Victoria, and there are many others that were First of all, as some of my hon. Friends have also built in her reign. Those prisons are not only completely said, the Chancellor made great play of the idea that his unsuitable for rehabilitation, but consume massive amounts Budget to eliminate the structural deficit within five of manpower, which reinforces my earlier point about years was unavoidable. That is absurd. Balanced budgets the unnecessary waste of money that goes on revenue are the primitive 1920s economics of Montagu Norman spending, rather than on capital expenditure, which in this country and Herbert Hoover in the United actually produces results. States, and in both countries they led directly to the The second thing that I would ask of hon. Members— great depression. Capitalism is driven by cyclical forces and of the media—is to accept that it would be a good that need constant regulation, not balanced budgets thing if we were to enjoy the kind of consensus that I irrespective of the economic cycle. The truth is that the have praised in the coalition, on the matter of penal Chancellor has gone overboard on austerity. The cuts reform across the House. Too often the sentiments are as tough as those that the IMF is imposing on expressed by the Secretary of State for Justice last week Greece, which is on the verge of bankruptcy, which we have been uttered by Members in all parts of the House, certainly are not. They are also twice as tough as the but they have fallen prey—because they are perennially Canadian measures that the Chancellor has repeatedly vulnerable—to cheap political point scoring of a short- prayed in aid to justify what he is doing, three times as termist nature, which has done us enormous damage. I tough as Sweden’s measures in the mid-1990s and much hope that those who wish to oppose the reforms that are tougher even than the IMF measures in 1976. necessary understand that to do so would be to condemn Then there is the question of how the deficit should families, victims, perpetrators and communities to the be reduced—as I have said, no one disagrees that it repeated misery that we now have a golden opportunity needs to be. There are three ways of reducing the deficit: to prise ourselves away from. not only through tax increases or spending cuts, but A maiden speech is a privileged opportunity to outline through economic growth as well. Before the Budget, some of the issues that interest a new Member. It is a the OBR estimated that UK growth this year and over greater privilege, needless to say, to represent our the succeeding four years would be slightly less than 251 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 252

[Mr Michael Meacher] decimated that economy. Sooner or later, of course there will be a revival in all economies, but at a fearful 2.5% on average. As each 1% of growth adds an annual cost. We shall very much be going down the route of the £15 billion to UK income, the OBR forward projections Irish economy if this Budget goes through. If the hon. of economic growth imply an increase in UK income Gentleman were to go to the Republic of Ireland and over the next five-year period—the perspective of the ask people’s view of the finance budget of three or four Bill—of between £150 billion and £180 billion. years ago, I think that he would get a very different Because all Governments take roughly 40% of any impression. increase in UK income, those figures imply an increase of revenues to the Government of around £70 billion to Helen Goodman: I support my right hon. Friend’s £75 billion over this five-year period. That would be interpretation of what has been going on in Ireland. enough virtually to halve the current budget deficit over The construction industry has been completely destroyed, that period, which hugely reduces the need for spending and there are empty shells of houses all around the cuts. I do not say that I am against spending cuts totally. countryside. Unemployment is sky high and, for the Indeed, when it comes to Trident, ID cards and some of first time in many decades, people are emigrating from the extraordinarily wasteful Government IT databases, the Republic. there is plenty of room for cuts. However, the figures that I have quoted raise starkly the question of whether the Chancellor’s enormous spending cuts will squash Mr Meacher: My hon. Friend helpfully assists my out the growth-generating potential of the economy— argument. something that, frankly, would make the cuts simply I want to be fair and point out the Government’s counter-productive. proposals on corporation tax and the small companies Indeed, those figures also raise the central issue, tax to get firms investing, as well as the national insurance which had something of an airing between those on the cuts for firms outside the south-east to aid new hiring. Front Benches in the earlier debate, of where the Chancellor That is all very welcome, but those measures will be expects the growth to come from over the next few more than cancelled out by the additional Tory spending years. Household consumption, which accounts for two cuts of £32 billion a year by 2014-15, and the additional thirds of national output, is now almost certain to fall, £8 billion in tax increases. Let us take a highly topical particularly with the increase in VAT. Any growth in example. It has been pointed out that the construction wages after inflation is already weak and is likely to industry gets 40% of its work from public sector contracts. weaken further as unemployment rises, which it will. The 700 cutbacks in the schools building programme According to all surveys, consumer confidence is fading, announced yesterday, and the nadir in house building, while some 60% of UK exports go to the eurozone, which is now at its lowest ebb since 1923, will almost which as we all know is in considerable disarray. So certainly cost tens of thousands, if not hundreds of where exactly is the growth going to come from? thousands, of building workers their jobs over the five-year I give the right hon. Member for Wokingham period. (Mr Redwood) credit for being the one Government I shall give the House another example. According to Back Bencher who tries to make a case for the Budget, the Treasury Red Book, the OBR forecast for public but he seems to have forgotten the prime rule of computer sector net investment is that it will be flattened from its projections, which is: garbage in, garbage out. If we current level of about £49 billion to just £21 billion in feed in dodgy premises, we get out dodgy conclusions. 2014-15. That is a staggering drop. It is not just a Government Members keep quoting the OBR as though marginal change or a change in direction but a staggering it is independent—I do not think that Sir Alan Budd is reduction. So I repeat, where is the growth going to actually independent, and the OBR is next to the Treasury, come from, especially as the banks are not lending? The so it is not exactly independent—but that is not the Bank of England reported a fortnight ago that the flow point. The key point is that the OBR projections are of net lending to UK businesses was still negative. In based on certain premises that are––I say this without other words, people are repaying money to the banks, exaggeration—fantasy. rather than the banks handing out money to businesses. That compares with the situation in the first half of Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Given the strength 2007, when there was annual growth of 20% in the of the right hon. Gentleman’s views on the neo-Keynesian relevant M4 figures for banks lending to businesses. economics that effectively advocate keeping on spending because that is the only way to grow the economy, what The great fallacy of the Bill—the fantasy black hole does he think of the performance of the Irish economy? at the centre of the Budget—is that as the devastating In 2009, Ireland managed to reduce state spending by public spending cuts take effect, the private sector will 7% as a result of stringent measures involving public expand its hiring and investing to compensate. That is spending and public sector salaries, yet, in the first three the Government’s argument, but the premise is completely months of this year, its economy grew by almost 3%. indefensible. Why should the private sector do that? The Does that not demonstrate to him and to other Labour only reason that private businesses invest is because Members that it is a false assumption to say that reducing they see the possibility of profitability and expansion, public sector pay will shrink the economy, and that but where will that come from when consumption is cutting back can in fact provide an opportunity for the falling, when the banks are not lending and when private sector to grow again? export markets are fading? Where is the growth to come from? All the coming misery is allegedly unavoidable Mr Meacher: The opposite conclusion should be because there is a crisis in the bond market, which there drawn from the Irish economy. The Irish Government is not, and because the UK is supposedly like Greece, made huge, swingeing cuts of 12 to 15%, which absolutely which it certainly is not. 253 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 254

Many of my colleagues have pointed out the real risk I can tell the hon. Lady why the gap widened, however. involved in this deficit cutting fixation to shrink the To cite a phrase that was used early on in the Labour state. Let us make no mistake, this cannot be justified Government, new Labour took the attitude that it was economically; it has ideological motive. That is the fairly unconcerned about people becoming filthy rich. fundamental bottom line in assessing this Budget. It That was a serious mistake, and the increase in the will impale Britain on a very low growth path for years wealth of the tiny top segment of the population has ahead, with rising joblessness and stagnant gross domestic been enormous. That is the reason that the gap increased. product, even if the country does avoid a double-dip recession, although the Lord Chancellor and Secretary Charlie Elphicke: I am interested to hear the right of State for Justice admitted the other day with typical hon. Gentleman raise the issue of child poverty. Can he frankness that that remains an open possibility. explain why in the last Parliament it went up by 300,000 Even in the Chancellor’s own framework for the on every single measure? Budget, there remains the question of striking a balance between tax increases and spending cuts. The Chancellor Mr Meacher: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman is wrong chose an 80:20 ratio, but that is far more heavily weighted on the figure; the last figure available for when Labour against public spending than in previous economic episodes were still in government suggested an increase of about of this kind, including under previous Tory Governments, 100,000. That, of course, was the result of a recession such as that of the early 1990s. Poorer households will caused by the bankers. The Labour party protected the unquestionably be the main victims of the spending poor and the unemployed to a significant degree, as cuts, and even the tax increases—notably VAT—will of those groups are about to find out from the very different course impact most harshly on the poorer half of the treatment meted out to them by this Government. population. This is anything but a fair Budget. Even the two new taxes that impact directly on the Kate Green: I have no idea what statistics the hon. rich will have little effect on them. The £2.5 billion bank Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) is looking at. levy will mainly be offset. There has been no mention of Over the period Labour were in power, between 1997 this, but it is fixed at the very low rate of 0.07% of and 2010, child poverty fell by half a million on every eligible liabilities. One could hardly find a tax rate lower measure. While it is true that it rose in one or two years, than that. One can be sure that it will be largely avoided it still finished significantly lower than it had been at the through balance sheet adjustments away from short-term beginning of the first Labour Government’s term. wholesale funding, together with other devices such a group restructuring and de-leveraging. Mr Meacher: I think I must move on—and we must move on—from debating poverty between the parties. The second tax change that will have affect the rich is Since I have the privilege of speaking, however, I have the increase in capital gains tax to 28%, but that still the last word. The fact is that the Thatcher Government takes it only halfway to parity with higher rate income tripled poverty to more than 3 million over the period tax, which is where it ought to be, and where Nigel between the early 1980s and the end of the 1990s; Lawson—Nigel Lawson!—left it in the 1980s. The change Labour reduced that significantly, but did not, in my will still allow people with very high incomes to dress up view, do as much as it could have done to reduce the their income as capital gains so as to halve the tax that enormous gains of the wealthy. would otherwise be payable. The idea that the rich are making an equivalent sacrifice and—to use the mantra As always, it is the dog that did not bark in the night that I think will come back to haunt the Government—that to which we should give most attention. There is nothing we are all in it together is nothing more than a sick joke. in the Bill about a financial activities tax on financial speculation, which is a domestic version of the Tobin tax. Considering that the banks’ recklessness was a Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I have some major contributor to the crash, that would have a sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, significant reforming potential as well as being a major because the Liberal Democrats were also inclined to revenue earner. There is nothing for a really tough support a higher rate of CGT. But does he still support crackdown on tax avoidance, which is still estimated to that proposal, given the evidence that it would raise less cost the Exchequer some £25 billion a year, nor is any income and thereby impose harsher penalties on the action being taken on the indefensible non-dom loophole. public sector than if it were left at 28%? Nor is there any reference to a wealth tax, which might have seemed reasonable when, according to The Sunday Mr Meacher: I have never believed what some Laffer Times rich list—not a trendy-lefty organisation—the economists say, which is that increasing taxes on the top 1,000 richest multimillionaires, a minuscule proportion rich results in a reduction in the net income. I believe of the population, have nearly quadrupled their wealth that that is based on a false premise. over the last decade and a half by no less than £335 billion. This was all in The Sunday Times rich list two or three The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine months ago. In the last year alone, their wealth increased Greening): Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why by £77 billion. The fact that they are not being required his Government failed to narrow the gap between rich to make any significant sacrifice at all, when everyone and poor? else is—

Mr Meacher: I regret that the Labour Government Andrew Bridgen: Will the right hon. Gentleman give did not succeed in narrowing the gap between rich and way? poor. However, they did something quite remarkable in reducing the number of children in poverty by 600,000. Mr Meacher: No, time is going on and I want to No, it was not enough, and we fell below our target. conclude. 255 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 256

[Mr Meacher] While traditional heavy industry is very much part of the landscape in the constituency, we have the added The fact that those people make no sacrifice while benefit of a wide range of high-tech industries at Daresbury, everyone else is being hit extremely hard makes an utter including robotics and nanotechnology. Indeed, Global mockery of any idea of fairness in the Budget. This is BioDiagnostics has just announced that it will be moving not an honest Budget or an honest Bill. It was born of its research and development to Daresbury, making it an ideological fixation to shrink the state well below the home of the global fight against tuberculosis. The 40%. The facts and arguments have been massaged to laboratory and the science and innovation campus are fit around this preconceived idea, and the methods at the cutting-edge of science, as well as an essential used—draconian cuts to produce a balanced Budget— provider of local jobs. remain a throwback to the reactionary and ultimately I firmly believe that these genuinely wealth-creating disastrous economics of the 1930s. It will fail, but the industries, both old and new, are going to be instrumental risk is that it will drag down Britain with it. in leading the recovery. With this in mind, I am delighted to be giving my maiden speech in this debate on the 8.14 pm Finance Bill, following the emergency Budget which Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I am grateful for has already helped to restore considerable market confidence this opportunity to make my maiden speech, and I offer with the message that Britain is open for business again. you my belated congratulations on your new appointment, In particular, the plans for a regional growth fund and Mr Deputy Speaker. the substantial reduction in employer national insurance Despite not being the first Member to represent contributions in targeted areas demonstrate that this Weaver Vale, I am the first ever to give a maiden speech. Bill is good news for industry and for the north of My predecessor, Mike Hall, had already given his maiden England. speech as the Member for Warrington, South five years Besides its industry, Weaver Vale has some of the before this constituency was created in 1997. Although most beautiful countryside and picturesque villages it is conventional to pay tribute to one’s predecessor in a anywhere in the country—villages such as Crowton, maiden speech, Mike, who was never one for convention, Acton Bridge, Kingsley, Norley and Manley. Most said of his Conservative predecessor for Warrington distinctive of all is Helsby Hill and the surrounding South, Chris Butler, after what must have been a particularly settlements of Helsby and Frodsham. However, Weaver bitterly fought contest, that Vale is also a seat of sharp contrasts. Besides vibrant “it would be hypocritical of me to pass favourable comments on enterprise and leafy villages, there are areas of severe Mr. Butler.”—[Official Report, 6 May 1992; Vol. 207, c. 123.] deprivation. Within Runcorn alone, the disparity is However, during my three years as a candidate trying breathtaking. In the Windmill Hill area, only 8.1% of my best to unseat Mike Hall, he was always extremely pupils achieve 5 GCSEs including maths and English. courteous to me, and I do not believe it would be Those pupils can expect to live for nearly 10 years less hypocritical of me to pay tribute to the work that he did and to earn an average of £30,000 a year less than my for the constituency. Although perhaps not the most constituents who live in the more prosperous parts of high-profile of Members here in Westminster, he was Runcorn. highly regarded as a hard-working constituency MP for The gap would be even wider if Windmill Hill were Weaver Vale. We shared similar interests in football and compared with some of the prosperous commuter villages military history.Despite the views of his Labour colleagues such as Hartford or Kingsmead. After 13 years of a on Halton council, we were in wholehearted agreement Labour Government, this is quite simply a disgrace and in our opposition to wind turbines being built on Frodsham should act as a constant reminder to those on the marshes, as well as to the numerous incinerator applications Labour Benches, who have already begun looking back across Cheshire. I was sorry to learn that Mike was on their time in government as some sort of golden age forced to stand down owing to ill health and I wish him in which poverty and inequality were abolished. Sadly, and his wife Lesley a long and happy retirement. the truth is that, under Labour, the poor got poorer Weaver Vale is a rather unusual constituency in both while the debt grew bigger. Labour Members will almost its shape and character. Thanks to its ambiguous name, certainly be spending the next few years in hysterical many Members have expressed a little confusion as to opposition, attacking the Government for fixing the its whereabouts. The seat is located in the heart of mess they created, completely oblivious to the reality Cheshire, focused around the River Weaver, a tributary that we cannot help the most vulnerable in society by of the River Mersey. It stretches from Northwich in the basing the economy on debt. Without wealth creation, south-east to Runcorn in the north-west. It is a source we cannot achieve the social justice that we all want. of considerable pride that, on this side of the House, I Before I finish, I would like briefly to express my am the sole representative on the Mersey estuary, although thanks to my constituents, who have sent me here to I am delighted that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead represent them. It is the greatest honour and privilege (Mr Field) is to be working with the coalition. of my life to serve the people of Cheshire. It has been Weaver Vale has an impressive and proud industrial quite a long and personal journey here, as well. I was history. Northwich, the largest town, is based on salt born on a council estate in Cheshire, as the youngest of mining, which started in pre-Roman times. Imperial four children. My father was a wages clerk, but he died Chemical Industries was started in Northwich and one when I was young, and my mother worked in a series of of its founders, Sir John Brunner, was a former Member local shops and pubs to make ends meet. I left my local of Parliament for the area. While ICI may be no more, comprehensive school with few qualifications and got a Brunner Mond is still based in Northwich, and the job stacking shelves at the local supermarket, but I was chemical industry is still going strong in Runcorn, as fortunate to have the chance to study business at night well. school, and went on to have a successful manufacturing 257 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 258 career working in sales. I should like to think that I was seemed very different from Tottenham, the assault on one of those slick salesmen whom the right hon. Member manufacturing industry and the attitude to former mining for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) liked to and steelworking towns led us to forge a solidarity that attack on such a regular basis in the last Parliament. remains on these Benches today. I have always enjoyed serving my local community, In the 1990s I qualified as a young lawyer, but I did spending four years as a special constable in the Cheshire not go straight into employment because, yet again, the police and 10 years as a local councillor. I have no idea country was in recession and the employment was not how long I will serve in the House—that will be up there. I went to the local unemployment benefit office to the people of Weaver Vale—but I hope that if I am to hoping that I might become a barrister, but not sure leave this place sooner rather than later, I will be able to whether that would actually happen. My mother was help, in a small way, to put the “great” back into Great now struggling on her own with a 15% interest rate, and Britain. In that vein, I commend the Bill to the House. the shops up and down Tottenham high road were boarded up because of bankruptcy.That was the backdrop 8.20 pm in the 1990s. We experienced two recessions that had huge social consequences—social consequences that I Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Let me begin deeply fear could be repeated as a result of this Finance by congratulating the new hon. Member for Weaver Bill. Vale (Graham Evans) and expressing some solidarity with him, given what he said about his background and experience of growing up on a council estate. I am sure Richard Graham: The right hon. Gentleman is very that his constituents will be very well served by the generous in giving way. Given his experience in the early effective way in which he makes his remarks. 1990s, is it not an absolute tragedy that he was part of a Government who, having promised to abolish boom In a few days it will be my birthday, and as I inch and bust, landed us with the largest recession not just in towards the fourth decade of my life, it occurs to me his lifetime, but in the lifetimes of three generations? that the economic downturn that we are experiencing now is also my fourth. The truth is that I do not Mr Lammy: The hon. Gentleman paints a fantasy remember the first recessionary period in the early picture of history, and takes the banks out of context. I 1970s, but I have strong memories of the recessions of will return to that in a few moments. the early 1980s and early 1990s. I think back to what it was like growing up poor and black in my present constituency in Tottenham, and the hardship experienced Phil Wilson: I agree with 100% of what my right hon. by my family and many others at the time. I remember Friend is saying. Back in the 1990s, 11% of young my father losing his business in the early 1980s, and the people were out of work; in the 1980s, the figure was depression and the booze that followed. 12%. As a proportion of the work force, the unemployment rate was much higher than it is now, and 40% of those Children do not always quite understand these things people had been out of work for 12 months or more. as they are growing up, but I remember, in about 1982 That figure too is much higher than the figure today. In or 1983, coming to understand that there was far less my own constituency the unemployment is just over money in the home. The fridge seemed much less full, 1,000, but at the height of the recessions in the 1980s it and—although I do not want to suggest that my parents was 5,500. The main reason for the difference between were not generous—the presents at Christmas were not what we have experienced over the last year and what what we might have seen in the commercials on television, we experienced then is what the Labour Government and not what we might have liked. I think that the VAT did to ensure that ordinary people up and down the rise had something to do with it. Although Margaret country did not suffer. Thatcher had said that she would not change the rate before the election, she raised it from 8% to 15%. I also vividly recall the freezing of child benefit for successive Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That years , and how hard that was for my mother. More is why Members on the Government Benches should be than anything, however, I remember the restlessness, reminded that employment in my constituency was the fecklessness and the worklessness of the broader running at 20% in the recession of the 1980s and at 28% community and the explosion of violence that we shortly before we cane to power in 1997, and that although experienced in my community as a direct result of that, my constituency now has the highest unemployment leading to some of the worst images that this country rate in London, it is currently running at 9%. I say has ever seen or experienced. “currently” because it will surely rise as a result of this Finance Bill. The consequences—the social consequences Richard Graham: Does the right hon. Gentleman —of what we are debating today, and what we will vote agree that, in that context, it is particularly regrettable on in a few hours’ time, will be so significant that it is that the Government of the last 13 years left us with hard to put words to them, but they will be real and more than 1 million unemployed young people—an stark. absolute record? Andrew Bridgen: The right hon. Gentleman is speaking Mr Lammy: Unemployment at that time in my passionately about his opposition to unemployment. constituency was running at 20%, and in some communities, Surely he must be ashamed to be a member of a party particularly the black community, the rate was double that has formed Governments many times over the past that. It is because of the situation then that young 70 years and that, every time it has left office, has left people like me, growing up in constituencies like Tottenham, unemployment higher than when it came to office. forged such a huge solidarity with colleagues and friends in different parts of the country. Although those areas Hon. Members: It is not higher. 259 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 260

Mr Lammy: That is patent nonsense, which is why so but that has been turned into solely a debate about many hon. Members are shouting from a sedentary deficits; that is the only discussion taking place. I say, as position. a Labour Member who is proud of my party’s tradition, What we see in the Bill is absolutely ideological. It is that the discussion had not solely been about the recovery; not the first time that the House has debated such it had also been about what had led us to this position. ideological decisions, which have huge social consequences That was a discussion about materialism, consumerism for people a long way from Westminster. On one side, and excess, but all we hear now is this emphasis on cuts, we have an orthodoxy, a Conservative position, that cuts, cuts and deficits. The Government are wrong, as says that we must reduce deficits at all costs, despite the was made clear in the G20 meeting and the letter that social consequences. Behind that there is a desire to President Obama wrote shortly before it. They have reduce the state and welfare at the same time. On the taken the wrong position for ideological reasons, which other side, consistently, over generations, we have progressive will have grave social consequences. parties, and at the centre of those is the Labour party, The Government have said that this Budget is which understands that the private and public sectors unavoidable, but of course it is not, for the reasons that are co-dependent. They rely on each other. I have set out. It is not unavoidable, because the previous There are times during difficult recessionary periods Budget, in March, made it clear that we intended to cut when the public sector must borrow to ensure growth. the deficit over the next Parliament in a measured way. That is why I am hugely proud of the future jobs fund. This Budget is not progressive. How can one describe a That was a classic example of our Government borrowing Budget that means that unemployment will rise and £1 billion to create jobs and to ensure that the social growth will shrink as “progressive”? This is a total plight that constituencies such as mine have seen in the twisting of the word “progressive”. We have a dictionary past did not come to pass again. What an outrage. What on the table in front of the Economic Secretary, so I a shame. How can hon. Members look at the young invite her to pick it up and look at what “progressive” people of Tottenham, who now do not have that scheme means. It certainly does not mean what is in this Budget. and who will join the unemployment queues as a result This Budget is not fair to many people beyond this of yet another catastrophic decision? We on the Labour place. Benches remember the failed youth training scheme, a joke scheme that was not really about jobs; it was Martin Horwood: Does the right hon. Gentleman about gerrymandering the figures, which started to look think that taking nearly 1 million people out of income so bleak in the depths of unemployment in the 1980s tax altogether, a measure of which the Liberal Democrats and 1990s. are immensely proud, is progressive or not? Mr Kevan Jones: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the VAT increases that are in the Budget will make Mr Lammy: The hon. Gentleman knows that this is it worse for the poorest in his constituency—not only robbing Peter to pay Paul—I am sure that his mother the unemployed but those on low pay and on limited said that to him. One cannot give to people on the one incomes? hand and take a damn sight more in VAT on the other, and he knows it. I am talking about people such as the Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In Uddin family, who live on the Broadwater Farm estate the midst of a growth in unemployment, which has in my constituency. I am grateful to the TreeHouse been predicted by the OBR, there is a VAT rise that will charity for asking me to spend a Friday afternoon with affect the poorest families. a family in my constituency, dealing with the issue of autism. Because of the context of this Budget and the In debating the Budget, we have to defend the hope Finance Bill that flows from it, I was, of course, examining and prospect that there is a different economic way. the wider issues that surround this family. That is articulated not just by the usual suspects— economists such as David Blanchflower have been It was privilege to go to the Broadwater Farm estate, mentioned in the debate—but Martin Wolf in the Financial which I have known all my life, as I grew up and spent Times, Samuel Brittan and George Joseph Stigler. A many years there. It was a privilege to go up the number of economists are saying that this is the time for stairwell to the 15th floor to spend time with the Uddin fiscal stimulus, for an FDR-type new deal, for an LBJ-type family. In that two-bedroom flat was Mr Uddin and his offer. This is the time for that big society that they wife, a family of five children and a niece. There were dreamed about. eight of them in this flat surviving on income support of £322 a week and struggling with a five-year-old autistic When this country lay in rubble after the second child. I was the bearer of bad news, because I had to world war, we did not shrink back. The Attlee Government explain to them that Mr Uddin, who cannot work as a invested. We built the NHS, we built housing, we built result of an injury at work—he was a chef in an Indian schools. That is the example that we should be following. restaurant and he had a serious back injury—would Instead we get this false smoke-and-mirrors game. face a new medical test in order to get the disability living allowance that made up that £322. I had to Charlie Elphicke rose— explain to them that once again—I recalled this from my own background—their child benefit would be frozen. Mr Lammy: I will not give way at this moment. I had to explain to them that the price of living would Politically one has to applaud, in some senses, the go up because extra VAT would be whacked on their Government for the way in which they have changed the household goods and items such as school uniforms. debate that was about fiscal stimulus, support, opportunity I had to explain to them that the toddler element of the and hope, despite these difficult times. The country had child tax credit and the element for their new five-week-old a focus on the banking sector in this country, in particular, baby had been taken away. That was worth £1,000 261 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 262 to many families across the country. The Uddin family Martin Horwood: I am sure that if my hon. Friend would be experiencing huge hardship as a consequence the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne of this Budget. Featherstone), who is being attacked in her absence, It gets worse. What the Uddin family would dearly were here to defend herself, she would do a very good love of course is better housing. The prospect of better job of it. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that one of housing in London as a consequence of this Budget is the consequences of very high housing benefit payments dark indeed. That brings me on to the real test of what in central London has been, in effect, to line the pockets is progressive and what is fair. The cap on housing of private landlords with public money? Even if he does benefit will have the most pernicious effect in this city. not accept the solution presented in this Budget and Rents in London boroughs such as Islington, Camden Finance Bill, does he not think that something needs to and Westminster can run into the many hundreds of be done to address the problem? pounds, so there will inevitably be an exodus from zones 1 and 2 to zone 3. My constituency already has Mr Lammy: I commend the hon. Gentleman for his 20,000 on the housing list, more than 3,000 in temporary defence of his hon. Friend, who, let us face it, is having accommodation and, as I speak, more than 800 in a bad few days. This is not the moment to say that the emergency accommodation. It will become even more private sector should step in. What are the chances of crowded. There will be no prospect of the Uddins one of my constituents wanting to go into the private moving anywhere, particularly when, as we would expect, sector, as many of us have encouraged our constituents Conservative local authorities in London continue to to do, given the uncertainty about what will happen to refuse to build. Guess what? Westminster council built their housing benefit? None. The people who are in just 200 affordable homes in the last year for which social housing will stay there, despite conditions such as there are records. The Royal Borough of Kensington those that I have described. and Chelsea built just 100; Richmond built 127; This is the time to walk the walk, I say to the Liberal Wandsworth just over 300. That is the record on affordable Democrats. This is the time to demonstrate compassion, housing. It is very bleak indeed. The Mayor has made care and empathy—to walk alongside those who are not one representation on the housing consequences poorest in our community. That is test of whether this is of this Budget. an effective Finance Bill, and it does not meet that standard. Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Does my right hon. Friend agree that beyond metropolitan areas Mr Kevan Jones: It will not only be private sector such as London the Government’s decision to take tenants who are affected. If a cap is introduced either in away the regional spatial strategies that allowed councils London or in my North Durham constituency and that to work together to deliver affordable housing will have cap is less than the current social market rent, the gap a profound effect on the way in which we manage the will have to be filled by the tenant. Some will be unable problem of affordable housing? to afford it, and they will either be evicted or have to move out. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. That was wide of the mark. May I ask hon. Members from time to time at Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There least to mention things contained in the Finance Bill. will be a significant increase in evictions as a result of the housing benefit measures. Many Members will Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend makes a good point, remember London in the 1980s and the early ‘90s. We which I hope he will have an opportunity to develop remember what it was like walking under Waterloo later. I want to make it clear that, as a result of the bridge—sometimes it seemed as though whole families housing benefit cap, there will be an exodus from zone 1 were living there, homeless. We remember the stories of to zones 3 and 4 and areas such as mine. I predict as a “cardboard city”. That is what we remember, and that is consequence something similar to what we see in Paris— what we will see again as a result of this Bill. suburbs that are most often brown, black and other To say it is fair if a Bill places a £2 billion levy on the ethnic minority in complexion and are crowded, cramped banks but imposes on hard-working people cuts and and dangerous. The decisions made in the Finance Bill VAT rises that combined in total come to £24 billion is will lead to social unrest. to treat people like fools. Of course it is not fair. How Liberal Democrat colleagues in London, especially could it possibly be fair? That is why I repeat that the hon. Members for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Members who know a lot better and who have relied on Featherstone), for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) and the votes of those hard-working people should be ashamed for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) of voting for this Finance Bill. I urge them, in the time should hang their heads in shame if they vote for the left as we continue to debate the Bill, to hear those Bill tonight. Working people voted for them on the voices in this place and beyond that say that this moment, basis of the platform on which they stood. They know as tough as it is for our economy, can be a moment of that people will suffer as a consequence because benefits hope, can be a moment of growth and can be a moment will be cut and housing benefit will be capped. People of fiscal stimulus. I urge those Members not to line up who voted for them in good conscience will suffer. alongside the ideological orthodoxy that always sees the opportunity not just to cut a deficit but to cut the state and to cut welfare, but to say once again, as we have in Mr Deputy Speaker: Has the hon. Member finished progressive moments in the past: no, we can act differently. his speech? I am proud and very lucky to stand here having grown up in a constituency such as mine was in the past, but Mr Lammy: No. I am giving way. there are many young men and women who faced years 263 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 264

[Mr Lammy] that with extremely high interest rates. We do not have extremely high interest rates; we have record low interest of unemployment and many who, sadly, spent too rates at the moment. many years serving at Her Majesty’s pleasure, as a direct consequence of decisions that were made about Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am sorry to say that the hon. our economy at that time. Lady left my train of thought at the wrong station. The point I was making was that, if we carry on issuing gilts at an even faster rate, long-term interest rates will rise, 8.49 pm and it is on long-term interest rates that mortgages end Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): May up being priced. If we look at the gilts market, we see I begin by congratulating hon. Members on a series of that the very thought—the prospect, the hope—of a excellent maiden speeches? My hon. Friend the Member Conservative Government saw it rally, therefore reducing for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) spoke. I did not know the cost of borrowing to people in this country, whether that area of the country at all before he did so, and I feel Her Majesty’s Government or private individuals. So yes, much better informed as to its great beauties. The hon. we have very low overnight rates, but the long-term rate Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) told the House, to set by the gilts market is more important for mortgages. its considerable relief, that he is not going to be a pugilist, as one of his predecessors once was, so I am Chris Leslie: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? glad to note that, if he disagrees with my speech, I may not end up with a broken nose—[Interruption.] I could Jacob Rees-Mogg: It would be a privilege. not quite catch that, and I expect the Hansard reporters could not, either. My hon. Friend the Member for Chris Leslie: But surely the hon. Gentleman, as a Ipswich (Ben Gummer), as Edmund Burke said of Pitt sensible and grounded individual, will recognise that the Younger, is not so much a chip off the old block, as there is a world of difference between the Greek situation, the old block itself. And finally, my hon. Friend the to which some of his more hot-headed colleagues have Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) compared our country, and the rather sturdy and well told us that he was—on the internet, under the same managed way in which we deal with our debt and gilts name—a cabaret artist. I may be rare in the country at issuance in this country. large, but in this House probably not, in that I much prefer a political speech to a cabaret artist, so I am very Jacob Rees-Mogg: I do not believe that I had mentioned glad that we had the wrong website for the gentleman Greece in the few words that I had spoken. I would say, who spoke. however, that it is better to cut before getting into a Let me come to the matter at hand, the Second Greek situation. I admire my right hon. Friend the Reading of this incredibly important Finance Bill. It is, Chancellor of the Exchequer because, in his foresight, like the one in 1981, of considerable controversy but he has brought forward action early. Countries in a great importance. We have heard at length, but interestingly, Greek situation find that they can get no money from from Opposition Members that, actually, this is not a the financial markets and have to go cap in hand to the serious circumstance, and that, if we pay off the debt, International Monetary Fund or the European Central though a bit too high, in dribs and drabs, all will be Bank. How much better it is—how much more “prudent”, well. Sadly, that just is not correct. The deficit that we to use a word once popular with Labour Members—to have faced has reached levels that in peacetime we have get our house in order before reaching that state of never had, and a key factor about the funding of the desperation. deficit last year has been missed. It was that almost all Kate Green rose— the gilts that were issued were bought by the Bank of England under its programme of quantitative easing. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Of course I will give way. That programme has now stopped. Even with this Finance Bill, we face an increase in Kate Green: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s the amount that the Government need to raise from argument, I think, thanks to the probing questions of £40 billion to £160 billion, and if we had stuck to the my hon. Friends. Are we not talking about a balance Opposition’s proposals it would have been higher still. between getting the long-term interest rates sufficiently Where does that money come from? Who is willing to low and not overreacting and over-dramatising, which give this country £160 billion? As it is collected, who I fear the hon. Gentleman is in danger of doing? finds it harder to borrow? The answer is the very businesses that Opposition Members say find it difficult Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady ought to allow me to make investment decisions. If we borrow and borrow, to get over-dramatic before accusing me of being so. and the Government use up all the money, we force up Her point is to some extent valid; of course we need to interest rates for mortgage holders and squeeze out the consider these things rationally and deal with them in a investment that private companies need to make. sensible and prudent fashion. That is exactly what we have done. The point that I am trying to establish is that Helen Goodman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the level of debt needs to be tackled urgently. I am not saying that the United Kingdom is bankrupt; there are Jacob Rees-Mogg: It will be an honour to give way. studies that show that there has been no default on our debt since 1688. I do not believe that the situation was Helen Goodman: I am trying, but I am having great going to lead to a default on gilt-edged securities. We difficulty following the hon. Gentleman’s train of thought. had not reached that stage. On the one hand, he says, rightly, that the deficit and the debt stock are too large, but he then connects Mr Kevan Jones rose— 265 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 266

Jacob Rees-Mogg: However, I do not believe that it Jacob Rees-Mogg: I do not believe that the hon. would have been impossible, purely because of our Gentleman is accurate about the recovery in the 1930s. strong history, for us to have reached that stage if we There is a common misconception that the recession of had not done something early—sooner rather than the 1930s was the same in the United Kingdom as in the later. Does the hon. Member for North Durham United States, but that is not correct. What really happened (Mr Jones) still want to intervene? I shall be delighted to in the 1930s is that when we came off the gold standard, give way. there was a gigantic monetary stimulus, and that led to the recovery. The one thing that is of crucial importance, Mr Jones: Is it not the case that the average maturity but outside the strict remit of this debate, is that we of UK debt is some 14 years, as opposed to two years in must maintain a loose monetary policy, which will be Greece? supportive of the recovery, as it was in the 1930s.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely Gregg McClymont: I thank the hon. Gentleman for right. That is why, as I was saying, it is right to address that answer. However, my understanding is that we had the problem now, when we are in a strong enough mass unemployment until the war took its course and position to do it and take the pain. Nobody denies that we had to rearm. Am I not right in saying that the cutting is painful. It is always difficult. unemployment problem that emerged after 1929, and Having, I hope, established the seriousness of the particularly after 1931, was not solved until rearmament situation, I want to move on to the balance between tax and the war occurred? rises and spending cuts and why I think, once again, that Her Majesty’s Government have exactly the right Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely balance. One figure has not been drawn out in these right about the problem of unemployment in the 1930s, debates, but it is noteworthy. If we take net tax receipts although the situation began to recover in the United and national insurance contributions as a percentage of Kingdom considerably earlier than in the United States. GDP, we see that they will reach 36.4% in 2013-14. That I accept that in the United States, rearmament led to level has not been achieved in any single year of socialist recovery, but I suggest that in the United Kingdom the government from 1970-71 onwards. We are having the recovery resulted from coming off the gold standard highest level of taxation as a percentage of GDP because and the boost to trade that that provided. of a Conservative Budget, of all things. Incidentally, the same figure was reached under the chancellorships of Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): Lords Howe and Lawson. So the Conservatives are Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? willing to tax when it is necessary to ensure the financial stability of the country. Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman has promoted me, but I will give way for the flattery. Owen Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Bailey: I am sure it is only a matter of time. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Of course—with pleasure. Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the diminution in unemployment that took place in the Owen Smith: Given the manifest command of economic 1930s was largely a result of Government public spending, history that the hon. Gentleman is showing, will he particularly on public sector housing? answer a question that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury could not answer when I asked him earlier today? It was Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that Neville Chamberlain about growth. Can the hon. Gentleman name one five-year managed to balance the budget, so we had a Chancellor period during any of the past 40 years when we have who was a Conservative doing quite a good deal of seen the level of growth projected by the OBR—in work in the 1930s. However, we may be getting a little particular, the level of job creation in the private sector? abstruse and far away from the 2010 Finance Bill.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman asks the Chris Leslie: Can I ask one last question on the 1930s? wrong question, for a very straightforward reason. I would happily ask a question back. Can he point to a deeper recession in the history of the United Kingdom? Jacob Rees-Mogg: I know that I am accused of being The fact is that recovery rates from very deep recessions old-fashioned, but I do not want to conduct the whole are much faster than those from shallower recessions. debate in the 1930s. That is the point that my right hon. Friend the Member Let us move back to 2010 and the need for the tax for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) made earlier. We get rises to be as they are, not higher. Clearly, at 36.4% of very strong recoveries after a very serious downturn, GDP, we are at a tax level that it is very difficult to and the seriousness of the recent downturn goes back surpass. I remind Labour Members who disparage the to the 1930s, as the right hon. Member for Edinburgh great Professor Laffer that when tax rates were at 83%, South West (Mr Darling) so rightly pointed out. they still failed to get above 36.4% of GDP, so taxation is as high as it can be. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and My final point is on spending. The problem with Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman asked spending is that it got out of control post the period whether it was possible to name any recession in which when Labour followed the Conservative plans for public there has been such a recovery. What about the 1930s? spending. It is simply not sustainably to have Government I understand that it was only through rearmament that spending at 48% of GDP when the tax base is 36.4% Britain recovered from the deepest recession of all. of GDP. 267 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 268

Grahame M. Morris: If that is the case, why did the I congratulate the hon. Member for North East Conservatives support the Labour Government’s spending Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay), my hon. Friend the plans until 2008? In fact, my recollection is that there Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), the hon. Member were demands for more spending—more police numbers, for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) and my hon. Friend the more support for carers, and so on. Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) on their excellent maiden speeches. They all rightly paid tribute Jacob Rees-Mogg: There were political reasons, I to their predecessors, and will be strong advocates for think it might be said, for supporting those spending their constituencies. plans. I was not a Member of the House at that time, This Finance Bill is a bit odd in that it is a two-stage and it is a bit harsh for me to be expected to take Bill. Some of us have been used to having the Second responsibility. I think a lot of people, not only in this Reading debate on the Floor of the House, and then House, held to the mistaken idea that the economy was the Members who had either upset the Whips or were going to carry on growing for ever. I have always financial saddos went into a Committee Room for thought that boom and bust is a fact of life. We always several weeks for the Committee stage. have booms and we always have busts, and we will have them again. One can look at studies of financial cycles Chris Leslie: It’s a shame. going back to biblical times, so the thought that there would always be growth was simply wrong, and to try to Mr Jones: My hon. Friend says it is a shame that that match Labour’s spending programme was a mistake. is no longer the case. I know that when he was a Back However, even Homer nods. The point is that spending Bencher two Parliaments ago he was an assiduous was out of control and had to be cut, and taxation is at Member, perhaps with the sad anorak tendency of its limit. those on the Finance Bill Committee.

Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Barry Gardiner: He used to take notes. Cleveland) (Lab): I know that the hon. Gentleman keeps quoting the figure of 36.4% of GDP, but is that Mr Jones: He did. We are now to have all stages on not dependent upon what GDP actually is? According the Floor of the House, which I greatly welcome. I look to the coalition Government’s prospectus, GDP will forward to exploring the Bill in depth in the next few actually go down. weeks, as I am sure many other Labour Members do. Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman ought to Mr Love: Does my hon. Friend agree that all the bear in mind that we will achieve growth if we leave damage that we know will be done will come in this some money for business to borrow rather than it all Finance Bill? being pinched by the state. That was the point that I was making at the beginning—if the state borrows all the money that is going, in the absence of quantitative Mr Jones: It will, and I shall refer to that later. It will easing, it crowds out private investment. affect many people in my constituency, including some of the poorest. I know that Members do not want to listen to me all In introducing his Budget, the Chancellor said: evening, so I shall—[HON.MEMBERS: “No, more!”] Well, as I understand it, if I go on long enough tomorrow’s “This emergency Budget deals decisively with our country’s business is forfeit, and that is an Opposition motion, so record debts. It pays for the past, and it plans for the future. It supports a strong, enterprise-led recovery, it rewards work and it I will conclude. protects the most vulnerable in our society. Yes, it is tough, but We know that the situation is serious and that tax is it is also fair.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 166.] as high as it can be, therefore spending must be cut, His apprentice, in the form of the Chief Secretary to the however difficult it is. I commend the Liberal Democrats Treasury, came before us today. He is wheeled out every for their courage in supporting that and facing up to the time the Conservative party wants to do a nasty deed. realities of government, which they have not needed to I would have thought that he would wake up to the fact do for a few decades. If I were wearing my hat, I would that the Conservatives use him and the Liberal Democrats take it off to the Liberal Democrats. as a shield.

9.6 pm Helen Goodman: It is cruel. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees- Mr Jones: I am not sure that it is, because the Chief Mogg) on his contribution. I am really pleased that the Secretary knows what he has signed up to. With his Rees-Mogg family are all in this together with us in the great experience as press officer for the Cairngorms tough times ahead, and I hope that the financial strain national park, I am sure that he knows danger when he that the Rees-Mogg family will have to face will not sees it. We need to expose the Liberal Democrats’ rank mean that the hon. Gentleman’s tailor is somehow hypocrisy. They went into the election campaign arguing deprived of business. against most of the things to which they have now It is a pleasure to speak with you in the Chair for the signed up. They have abandoned decades of commitment first time, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is the first time that to some of the poorest in our society. I have spoken in a debate in this Parliament, and it is an Those actions are predicated on a myth. The hon. opportunity not just to recognise the dangers of the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) identified it Budget but to pay tribute to the benefits that we in earlier when he mentioned Canada. That is a worthwhile North Durham received from the 13 years of the Labour example, because if we want to explain what is happening, Government. we need to examine in detail what happened in Canada 269 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 270 in the 1990s. The Government are copying not only If anybody wants to read about the Government’s every single measure that the then Canadian Government game plan, or war plan, I recommend an excellent introduced but the tactics, including the great consultation book—someone sent me a copy from Canada—called with the Canadian people about how to cut the budget. “Shooting the Hippo” by Linda McQuaig. It is nothing to do with wildlife, and I say to the more delicate Clive Efford: I am interested in my hon. Friend’s individuals in the Chamber that it is not actually about argument, particularly his comparison of the consultation murdering hippos, but where the title comes from is that is about to take place with what happened in interesting. Part of the media hype in Canada centred Canada. Will he confirm that the consultation in Canada on the example of the baby hippo that would have to be took place on the basis that the Government would shot because the zoo could no longer afford the size of reinvest in the public sector after they had got through compound it needed. We thereby get into a self-fulfilling their budget deficit, whereas this Government are making prophesy, in which there is somehow no alternative. an ideological change whereby they will cut back the state for ever? They are inviting people to take part in a Hon. Members have mentioned the comparison with consultation not to ascertain where we should take Greece; the Canadians used the example of New Zealand. short-term measures, but to cut from the state services The Tories and the Liberal Democrats have justified the that people will never see again. emergency Budget by talking about our “sovereign debt crisis” as though it were the same as Greece’s, or that of Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is right, but in Canada some other southern European country. That has been people fell for the trick, because they cut back and did the entire justification for the proposals. The hon. Member not reinvest. for North East Somerset referred to gilts and other The Budget is ideologically driven. It is not about investments as though they would be at risk if nothing deficit reduction, but about driving down the state and were done, and actually claimed credit for the Government ensuring that we can somehow con the British public for the change in the gilt yield. However, the 10-year into accepting the unthinkable. bond yield in the UK today is around 4.5%, but it actually dropped to 3.5% in February, way before the We must always have someone with whom to compare election. ourselves and say, “We could be like that.” The current tendency is to compare us with Greece, whereas in rose— Canada in the 1990s, New Zealand was used an example. Jacob Rees-Mogg The process followed the same pattern as today. The starting point is to convince the public that the debt is Mr Jones: To somehow attribute that decline to— so horrendous that there is no alternative to ideologically [Interruption.] From a sedentary position, the hon. driven debt reduction; some hon. Members have claimed Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands) asks that today. The next step is to whip up the media and me to give way. I am glad he is now either a Parliamentary get a friendly think-tank or other supportive organisation Private Secretary or some other kind of bag carrier on to put forward selective facts about the size of the the Back Benches, because it will stop him making his deficit. To crank up the national debt as high as possible, fatuous contributions. I hope that the Exchequer Secretary everything is added in, including future private finance is a good Minister to carry bags for, unlike the Minister initiative funding. Revenue accounting is added to capital for Equalities or one of the other Liberal Democrat costs, without explaining to people that capital investment Ministers. I shall give way with pleasure to the hon. is investment in this country’s economy. That is how to Member for North East Somerset. try to scare the public. Jacob Rees-Mogg: The financial markets in February As happened in Canada, the next step is to say that if had the intelligence to work out that there was an the cuts are not made, the consequences will be dire. election in May and to consult the opinion polls. It was Guess what the Canadian Liberals did? They threatened, not exactly a case of consulting Mystic Meg. “If we don’t do this, the IMF will come in tomorrow.” We heard that during the election campaign. There is Mr Jones: The financial markets obviously and clearly nothing new about what is happening here. The got it wrong, so I am not sure what point the hon. Conservative party has clearly copied the Canadian Gentleman is making. The idea that the Labour model, and even adopted the playbook. Unfortunately, Government left us in such a dire situation is absolute it has been able to con the Liberal Democrats into being nonsense. It, too, is part of the scare agenda. its human shield. Mrs McGuire: Does my hon. Friend agree that some Andrew Bridgen: The hon. Gentleman seems to have of the leaks that apparently came out of the Government the impression that the world has an insatiable appetite in the past two or three days concerning 40% cuts are to buy UK Government debt. If that is the case, why did designed to set the context of fear that he is describing? at least one Treasury gilt sale fail to be fully taken up? When interviewed at the weekend, one senior Government Minister said that nobody would be asked for 40% cuts, Mr Jones: How many sales were there? We were and that that was only scenario planning. Are the rightly trying to raise money, but to give the impression Government trying to set the context so that people that UK Government debt is a bad investment is completely might be relieved that the cuts are less severe than those ludicrous. paraded in the media? Helen Goodman: I am sure my hon. Friend is aware Mr Jones: As a former trade union negotiator, I can that a large proportion of British Government debt is tell my right hon. Friend that that is an old trick. People bought by domestic savers rather than overseas savers. go into negotiations asking for 50% knowing that they That is another reason why the British Government are will come out with 5%. It is exactly as she portrays. much less at risk from the international markets. 271 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 272

Mr Jones: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman misunderstands. No that point. A Bank of International Settlements report one is suggesting that we do not need to reduce the debt: that I looked at this morning—it is worth looking at, the Labour Government did reduce the debt. I know and I suggest that anyone who has a spare half hour, or that during the election the stock in-phrase was “Labour who suffers from insomnia later tonight, read it—contains didn’t mend the roof while the sun was shining”. Well, an interesting graph showing exactly where debts are: I am sorry, but we did. We actually paid off debt. For 70% of Greek debt and 50% of US debt is held by example, the 3G licences for mobile phones raised in non-residents, but for the UK the proportion is 30%. excess of £20 billion, which went directly to paying off That makes my hon. Friend’s point well. debt. However, we are now in danger of doing what Ministers increasingly raise the spectre of Greece. happened in the 1980s with the Thatcher Government: For example, last week the Secretary of State for Energy borrowing money not to invest, which we were doing, and Climate Change said that the Chancellor had said but to pay unemployment and other benefits. The that the Budget was necessary because otherwise Britain Government are going to slash welfare benefits, exactly would be in danger of not being able to pay its way in as happened in Canada, and blame the poor. It was not the world. Public debt in Greece is the highest in the the poor, unemployed or disabled in my constituency euro area at about 120% of GDP. It also has one of the who got the debt this high; it was the international highest fiscal deficits in the OECD, with 14% of GDP. bankers and the people who are now to be rewarded by I do not seek to minimise the UK’s debt—it needs to be the Budget proposals on corporation tax as part of this dealt with, and we set out a clear plan to tackle it—but stimulus. it rose 20% in the last couple of years for a very good Phil Wilson: On the 3G licences, is my hon. Friend reason. We faced a massive economic downturn, and also aware that we paid back more debt then than all investing the money was the correct thing to do to the Governments since 1945 put together? ensure that we did not go into not only a recession, but a long-term depression. I remind new Conservative Mr Jones: Yes, we did, and that was the responsible Members that when those who are now in government thing to do. My right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor were in opposition, they got it wrong on Northern Rock set out what our Government reductions were going and wrong on how to deal with the banking crisis. Did to be. they ever oppose anything that we did on that? No, they On the recession, if anyone says we are out of the did not; they supported our measures. Their approach woods, they should look at the provisional gross domestic would have got us into a complete mess. product figures: 0.3% growth in the first quarter of this The UK debt is 68% of GDP, which is much lower year, and 0.4% growth in the final quarter of 2009. The than the euro area average of 79%. Our fiscal deficit is new Office for Budget Responsibility thinks that the 11%. However much people try to portray our borrowings economy will grow by 1.2% in 2010, and by 2.3% in as on a par with those of Greece or some of the other 2011. So the Budget is a great gamble. However, this is basket cases—as the press call them—that is just not so. not just about what is in the Budget and the Finance It is the same with the return on bonds. In the US it is Bill, which will take money out of the economy at this 3.58% and in Germany 2.5%. In addition, we have to crucial time when we need to put money in; the Government recognise what type of debt we have. Those who are are also gambling on the complete and utter nonsense following the war plan to frighten everyone might fall that there are two different economies in the country—the for the suggestion that somehow our debt has to be private sector, which is good and which we look up to repaid tomorrow. We are even hearing some of the and say, “It’s a wonderful thing,” and the public sector, nonsense that we heard in the Thatcher era about the which is bad and which we boo whenever we talk about idea that the UK economy—or a business—should be it—and that somehow we can separate the two. I shall run like a personal bank account. That is complete return to that point in a minute. nonsense. If people look at the chart on page 68 of the On the proposed deficit reduction, the Government’s Bank for International Settlements report, on the maturity fox has been shot by their own Office for Budget of debt, they will see that for the UK it is 14 years. In Responsibility. Its independent analysis is that Labour’s the US and Germany it is under nine years, and Greece deficit reduction plan would have more than achieved has some debt on short-term loans of two years, with an the target of halving the deficit over four years, from immediate requirement to repay. The idea that we are in 11.1% in 2009-10 to 5% in 2013-14. The OBR also said such a mess that we have to repay debt now, and so need that the Labour plan would reduce the structural deficit this emergency Budget—with all the damage that the by nearly three quarters, from 5.2% of GDP in 2010-11 VAT increase and everything else will do—is utter nonsense. to 1.6% in 2014. The plan as outlined to halve the budget deficit within four years would have met the Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con):While what the hon. timetable set out at the recent G20 summit on 27 June Gentleman says about the duration of the Government’s 2010. Government Members and commentators say debt is correct, what is of more importance now is the that the previous Government did not have a plan, but amount of borrowing that the Government have to do they did, and even the Government’s own Office for on a weekly basis because of the size of the deficit, Budget Responsibility recognise that. That plan, however, which is—at 13% of GDP—the largest in Europe. We is now being crammed into two years, which cannot be are borrowing roughly £3 billion a week, and that has done without a cost to jobs. nothing to do with the duration of the debt. Regardless of the duration, if the deficit is not addressed we will Mrs McGuire: Does my hon. Friend agree that, given still be in the market trying to borrow £3 billion a week. the scenario he has painted and the fact that the That is one of the reasons why the auction that my hon. previous Government’s budget deficit plan would meet Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew the international criteria, one would suspect that the Bridgen) mentioned earlier failed in the markets. current plan is more about ideology than economics? 273 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 274

Mr Jones: My right hon. Friend is right as usual: the given on VAT, and I have here the Liberal Democrat Government’s plan has nothing to do with that, but is poster from 8 April—and I must say that it is very good. being used as an excuse for an ideological attack, because I am sorry if I am going to pour more scorn on to the what they actually want is a smaller state in this country. Liberal Democrats, but I enjoy doing it, and I am that I return to the point that the Government’s plan is sure some of their Tory colleagues will enjoy it as well. about saying, “Private sector good; public sector to be The poster says: sneered at, public sector workers to be denigrated and “Tory VAT bombshell. not valued,” and that if we reduce the size of the state, You’d pay £389 more a year in VAT under the Conservatives”. that will somehow lead to nirvana, at which point we can all go off into the sunset and live happily ever after. The Deputy Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for However, the Government suddenly announced yesterday Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg) made quite a few comments that they were basically going to shelve the Building on VAT before the election. He referred to it on the Schools for the Future programme, affecting exactly “Today” programme on 7 April 2010, saying that VAT those jobs that the local construction industry—I met “let’s remember, is a regressive tax”. the Civil Engineering Contractors Association a few What has changed since then? What is being proposed weeks ago—were relying on to ensure that the recovery will affect the poorest in our society. continues. Therefore, to argue that we can somehow cut The Deputy Prime Minister is not the only one who back the public sector without having any effect whatever has form in this area. When the then Leader of the on the private sector is complete nonsense. Opposition appeared in Exeter in something called We all know that in regions such as mine in the Cameron Direct on 8 May 2009, he said: north-east, as well as those in Northern Ireland and “You could try as you say put it on VAT, sales tax, but again if others that have a larger public sector dependency than you look at the effect of sales tax, it’s very regressive, it hits the other areas, the effect of what is outlined in the Budget poorest the hardest. It does, I absolutely promise you.” will be even worse. However, I give hon. Members this So what is different now? What has actually changed, warning: we ain’t seen nothing yet, because the Finance apart from the fact that the Government now have their Bill will work by salami slicing, which is a technique posteriors on the Treasury Bench and in their ministerial that the Government are using to slip the news out. The limousines? biggest crackdown will come—we all know this—with the public sector spending round in October. That is Ms Angela Eagle: My hon. Friend is making a perfectly when the real cuts in both capital budgets and other good point and an extremely good speech. I should like investments will be made. to update the House about the website of the Deputy Prime Minister. The “Tory VAT bombshell” poster, Phil Wilson: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way which was on the website until very recently, has just again, and he is absolutely right. The Government have been removed. an objective of trying to create a big society, but does he agree that if we continue down this road, what they will Mr Jones: I congratulate the hon. Member who raised produce is a little Britain? the matter earlier. Someone obviously had to scurry away and take the poster down very quickly. Mr Jones: Yes, they will, and there is something else that they will do. Interestingly, the hon. Member for Tom Blenkinsop: In my constituency, I recently met Ipswich, who made an excellent maiden speech, talked representatives of the North East Federation of Small about prison reform, saying things that he really meant, Business, who were concerned about their members on an issue to which he is committed. However, he will who worked in retail on the high street. The increase in soon be disabused of that, when he finds that the prison VAT to 20% will affect them very badly. reforms being put through the Ministry of Justice have nothing at all to do with the penal system, and everything to do with budget restraint. Mr Jones: I will come to that in a moment. Let me be honest—I have never considered shopping a leisure As for the other measures , the VAT increase will have activity, and I think people are quite strange if they do. a disproportionate effect on my constituents and those Unfortunately, my family and large numbers of my in regions such as mine, because it is, in part, one of the constituents think that it is. The VAT increase will have poorest communities. As for the Liberal Democrats—we an effect on that leisure activity, which will have a direct saw a half-hearted attempt earlier to defend the increase effect on jobs that occupy a large proportion of the in VAT—the measure will indeed affect the poorest. local economy in many areas. My hon. Friend’s constituency has been affected by events at the Corus steelworks, and Grahame M. Morris: On the point raised by Government one possible result of that is that people will be looking Members about the impact assessment, will my hon. for other jobs, including in retail, but those jobs simply Friend comment on the impact of the VAT increase on will not be there. the third sector? I had meetings at the weekend, and I know that many in the voluntary and community sector Mrs McGuire: My hon. Friend said that we needed to rely on trading activity and are concerned about what look at the whole package. Will he reflect on the fact, the increase will do to their income levels. linked to some of the cuts in maternity benefits, that new parents will have to pay 20% VAT when they buy a Mr Jones: The increase is going to affect every single pram, for example? The VAT increase will apply not organisation that provides public services, including only to the big common items such as fridges, washing local councils––the increase will cost them a lot of machines and cars but to basic goods that families have money. As we saw earlier, certain commitments were to buy daily. 275 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 276

Mr Jones: That will be a double whammy for those Mr MacNeil: What? new families. Something like 30,000 children in the north-east will also lose out through the abolition of Mr Jones: The Liberal Democrats do say one thing the child trust fund. Their families will then be hit by and do another. As I say, that will come as a great shock the VAT increase, on top of the huge expense of a new to the hon. Gentleman, but let us be honest, anyone child, which will have a disproportionate effect, as my who has fought Liberal Democrats in local government right hon. Friend points out. It will have an even greater is used to them saying one thing and doing another effect on low-income families and people who are on locally, as well as nationally. benefits. We spoke earlier about where the burden of the cuts Mr Love: Does my hon. Friend agree that the biggest will fall. It was obviously a first outing for the hon. shock of all was the statements made by the Chancellor Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt), and the Government immediately before the Budget to the effect that he had have obviously run out of people to put on the Front no plans to raise VAT? Bench, judging by the performance that we saw. She tried to argue that VAT was not a regressive tax, although Mr Jones: Yes, we have been asked directly whether the Liberal Democrats said throughout the election this came suddenly as a shock. The hon. Member for campaign that it was. She also tried to argue that the Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) has just raised the increase would not affect the poorest in society. very clear point that the actual size of the deficit was One of the great things about being a Member of smaller than projected. No, this is a coalition deal, as Parliament is that we have access to a great Library we all know, by the push-me, pull-me coalition. We here. I suggest that all hon. Members go and take a look obviously have two leaders who can hardly be told apart at the excellent document on VAT and the new standard in terms of political objectives, and we have some very rate of 20%. Turn to page 4, which has a very useful unhappy individuals, such as the hon. Member for graph that shows that, as a result of this increase, the St Ives (Andrew George). When he made his speech poorest will pay some 19% more as a proportion of trying to justify this in the House last week, he looked their net household income, while the richest will pay very uncomfortable. I feel for him; all I would say is that less than 11%. People in North Durham who are on if he feels so unhappy, he should come and join us. benefits and those made unemployed over the last few weeks will find themselves being hit straight away next Barry Gardiner: My hon. Friend is making a tremendous year by this tax. Also affected will be a lot of small speech and I hope he goes on making it for a good deal businesses, shops and others. longer. He talked about the impact of VAT on small businesses, but does he agree that one of the most Kate Green: Does my hon. Friend agree that the damaging effects on those businesses in his part of the reason why the poor are hit so particularly hard is that world will come from the loss of One NorthEast? The for them this is not discretionary spending, but spending very support that businesses in his area require is going on essentials? While the rich might face paying out a to be lost. higher proportion of their expenditure, that is because they choose to incur that extra expenditure, while poorer Mr Jones: Yes, another myth that people have been families are being fleeced for expenditure on items for peddling is that development agencies like One NorthEast which they have no choice but to spend. were somehow profiting and spending. I will tell anyone what One NorthEast did in my constituency. It helped Mr Jones: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. out a perfectly viable business in the middle of the Unlike the hon. Member for North East Somerset, who recession, which could not get a £2 million loan that it might be able to forgo a visit to the tailor once this year, needed to be underwritten. When One NorthEast stepped some of the families he is talking to will not have a in, 20 extra jobs were created in that small business and choice about whether to buy a new pram or other another 50 were safeguarded. essential equipment for their baby. I have some further examples to put to the House. Chris Leslie: Are not small businesses doubly affected because of the cash-flow problems that they may experience? Mr MacNeil: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for With VAT at 20%, it is difficult to persuade customers letting me into the debate. The reason I often hear from to pay up on time. Many businesses may go to the wall, the Liberal Democrats for their support for the increase and insolvencies may arise as a result of the VAT change. in VAT is that the figures were far worse than they expected them to be. However, the pre-Budget report Mr Jones: That is a very good point. The Budget said that the deficit would be £176 billion, yet when it offers no help whatsoever for the small businesses to came to the Budget proper, it was £149 billion. In the which my hon. Friend referred. However, it is not just build-up to the election, the Budget deficit was greater small businesses that are affected. Some supermarkets than anticipated and the Liberals were against the VAT are very wary about the increase because of what they rise; then, when they found a decrease in the deficit, fear will happen to their businesses. The finance director they were suddenly for the VAT rise. I am perplexed. of Tesco has called on the Government to freeze VAT at Can the hon. Gentleman help me understand those 17.5% because, he says, the economy is very fragile, figures? saying: “The recovery is happening but it’s fragile and therefore the Mr Jones: What I am going to say to the hon. balance is important”. Gentleman in response might come as a bigger shock to He says VAT him than when he first found out that Father Christmas “is going to be part of the austerity package but it is a question of did not exist. when you do it. The best thing would be to wait a bit.” 277 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 278

Let me also give Sainsbury’s a mention. According to chains find that that process costs them millions of Eye Spy MP, the Chief Secretary has been shopping pounds. That is a real cost to the economy that does not there and buying Quavers. I am not sure whether seem to be factored in. they were intended to sustain him during tonight’s debate. Justin King, the chief executive of Sainsbury’s, Mr Jones: My hon. Friend makes a good point. “warned the incoming UK government to refrain from increasing There will be a cost not only to large businesses but to VAT amid speculation it could be an option considered by” small businesses. That brings me neatly on to the British the coalition Government. Retail Consortium, which has grave concerns about the VAT increase. It recently said that it could cost up to As has been pointed out, the VAT increase will have a 163,000 jobs and affect some £3.6 billion of spending. real effect on retail business large and small. As for the Again, in many communities those jobs are vital. This is consumer viewpoint, Mike O’Connor, chief executive on top of the very difficult economic climate that businesses of Consumer Focus, has said: are facing. In my constituency, retail-led development is “Thousands of the things we buy every day are going to get a catalyst for regeneration. If, for example, the new more expensive. The VAT rise will hit the poorest consumers hardest as people who earn least already spend proportionately Tesco in Stanley does not go ahead because of these more of their income on VAT and it will be even more important proposals, it will have a knock-on effect on the regeneration for consumers to shop around for the best bargains.” of an entire town.

Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Will Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): On that not many of the poorest families be doubly hard hit? point, I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman protested Not only will they face rising prices as a result of the as much when the previous Government raised VAT on VAT increase, but at the same time their benefits will be businesses? Did he make that point in the Chamber? uprated in line with the consumer prices index rather than as previously with the retail prices index. Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman has to realise that these are his Government’s proposals. I have the luxury Mr Jones: There will indeed be a double effect on of being in opposition, where I can oppose the Government. those families. It is all very well saying that people can shop around, but in my constituency—a rural constituency Nadhim Zahawi: For a long time. but, as I said in my maiden speech, one with urban problems—they cannot do that when they have no Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman says, “For a long access to a car and the only option is public transport. time” but the way the Government are going with this Those are the communities who will be hit hardest, and Budget, I am not sure that it will be. He will have to get I am sure that they exist in all constituencies. The new used to the fact that we will question the Government hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire, for instance, on the proposals because they will have a draconian spoke of the pockets of deprivation in his own constituency. effect on my constituents in North Durham. Those rural poor families will be hit harder than most. I must refer not just to the retail trade or charities, but to the Conservative grass roots. Tim Montgomerie, Grahame M. Morris: The VAT increase will have an on his website ConservativeHome, said: impact not only on small businesses and enterprises, but “First, it hurts the poor most of all and, second, both the on working men’s clubs. Tonight there was a meeting of Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats said they had ‘no plans’ the all-party parliamentary group on non-profit making to increase this tax. At a time when trust in politics is so low we clubs, which is very concerned about the increase. Many don’t need ‘plans’ to emerge tomorrow.” clubs in our area are operating on the margins, and it That was in advance of the announcement that is will have an immediate impact on their costs because contained in the Bill. the transport costs are all passed on to them. Has my hon. Friend any thoughts about the impact on such The other sector that the Bill will have a dramatic clubs, which provide a real social centre for many people? effect on is the construction sector. Yesterday, we saw the Building Schools for the Future programme decimated, Mr Jones: As a member of the Sacriston workmen’s directly affecting thousands of jobs. I am glad that my club, I have to concur with my hon. Friend. As he hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) is knows, following the smoking ban, the change in the back. He mentioned the decimation not only of BSF in way people access alcohol and supermarket price cutting, his constituency but of other projects that have been many such clubs in the north-east of England have been put forward. Again, business and construction will have struggling. Many have closed, sadly, in my constituency. to carry the cost of the VAT increase. We hear a lot about rural pubs, but we hear very little Another sector that will be affected will be charities about the Club and Institute Union movement. In and the work that they do. I know that under the new many places, including his constituency and mine, those Conservative approach, as part of the big society, charities clubs are the centre of the community. Once they have are supposed to be stepping up to the mark, but they gone, they will not be replaced. The VAT increase will will be the ones that will be affected. be a severe blow for them at this difficult time, when they are struggling already. Helen Goodman: Has my hon. Friend noticed with respect to charities that the Government have now Barry Gardiner: My hon. Friend has been most generous proposed to let welfare- to-work contracts on such a in giving way. Before he moves on from VAT, has he had basis that only large companies with a lot of capital will the opportunity to consider the costs to businesses of be able to deliver them to unemployed people, thereby reprogramming their tills for the change in VAT? My ruling out the voluntary sector from being involved in understanding is that many of the large supermarket that worthwhile work? 279 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 280

Mr Jones: Exactly, and if these bodies are then to be Mr Jones: What this proposal will lead to—this is my burdened by this VAT increase, that will severely affect fear—is an increase in the number of uninsured drivers them. On the VAT issue, I wish now to discuss an in those communities, and thus to the prospect of many excellent document, which I believe has been sent to all people endangering not only their own lives but those hon. Members, produced by Save the Children and of the people involved in their accidents. headed “Why the rise in VAT must be cancelled”. It My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East makes all the arguments that the excellent Library note (Chris Leslie) referred to the tax on travel insurance as a makes about the poorest being affected the worst, but it stealth tax. It will be a tax on individuals, but it has also also gives some very good examples. A table on page 3 been condemned as a tax on the industry, although the shows that the essential items to which my hon. Friend industry thought the tax would be higher. It is an the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) example of the Government’s negotiation tool of leaking was referring are not luxuries but items that a family or briefing that something is going to increase by X and would require. I am talking about things such as washing then introducing a smaller increase as if somehow that machines, electric ovens and hobs and children’s bed is a great concession. Insurance premium tax will increase frames, which will all be affected by this increase. The from 5%, but the higher rate of IPT for travel insurance hon. Member for Solihull said that people should rush will increase from 17.5% to 20%. That will have a direct out to buy these things now to avoid the VAT increase in effect on every constituent who goes on holiday next January. What she does not understand is that some year. I fear that people will go abroad without proper individuals do not have the disposable income to be able travel insurance, and the taxpayer will have to pick up suddenly to go out, shop around and get them. Many of the bill in many cases. these people rely on credit, so they face a double whammy of credit, usually at a high interest rate, and the effect of Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend is right. Often the the coming VAT increase. taxpayer is lumbered with having to rescue people abroad The Liberal Democrats should hang their heads in who have found themselves in precarious situations shame for supporting this Budget and especially these owing to the lack of proper insurance. Does my hon. proposals, which are not progressive but will hit the Friend agree that this rather mean-spirited holiday tax hardest up in our society. I just hope that when it comes will have all sorts of unforeseen consequences? to the votes on the VAT increases they have the courage to oppose them; otherwise, they will have an electoral Mr Jones: Yes. For many of my constituents a holiday price to pay at the ballot box in local elections and is one of their largest annual expenditures. So if an others. extra tax is added there will be a danger that people, The proposals in the Budget to increase the insurance especially the young, will not take out proper holiday premium have not been given a lot of attention tonight. insurance and the taxpayer will have to pick up the bill on occasions. There is also the distress caused to Chris Leslie: It is a stealth tax. families. There is a little-known item on MPs’ expenses in the Mr Jones: From a sedentary position, my hon. Friend Bill. I tried to ask the Chief Secretary a question about rightly says that this is a stealth tax, and again, it will it early on, but he ignored it. I know we should not be affect some of the poorest in our community. Earlier in speaking about our expenses and that many hon. Members the debate, we were talking about the level of fuel duty cannot mention the IPSA word without using and rural communities where a car is not a luxury but unparliamentary language. I am not going to do that; an essential item that enables people to get around. This I actually got some money out of it yesterday. Budget will increase the insurance premiums for those The proposals in the Finance Bill allow our expenses drivers, with young drivers being particularly affected. to be treated as they were before in terms of their tax Just because of their age, those drivers pay the highest status. I cannot understand why the deposit that we are premiums and they will have to pay an extra 1% under to be given for the rental of our second homes in this Budget. In some cases, that will stop young drivers London is taxable. I do not know whether it is a mistake being able to get access to insurance. or why that has been excluded. I am sure that if we send a tax bill to IPSA it will not pay it. Helen Goodman: On that point, does my hon. Friend agree that this will inhibit young people from learning Already we are treated for tax purposes as though we to drive? Being able to drive is often an extremely run a small business. Before, we were allowed to claim important skill for people to have when looking for legitimate expenditure for the filing of tax returns. a job. IPSA has taken that away from us and we now have to pay that cost, which in my case will be something like Mr Jones: Well, it is. In a constituency such as mine, £600 next year. I would like to see all our expenditure driving is an essential tool for young people in getting to such as that on equipment, on which there is capital work and other places. My fear is that this will lead— depreciation, taken out of tax. That would solve the issue in terms of our being looked at as small businesses. Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the I rued the day a few years ago when I knocked the hon. Gentleman, but a very large number of private door through in my office and found out that I had a conversations are taking place and there is a substantial tax liability for it of more than £1,000. Do not ask me hubbub in the Chamber. It is as though, after the first what I will do with the door in the office when I stand 53 minutes of his speech, the attention of the House down as a Member of Parliament, but I have paid that has wandered a little. However, I know that a hushed tax. I jest, but I seriously suggest that we need to look at atmosphere will be resumed and the House will want to this area. Clearly, IPSA and the court of public opinion hang upon his every word. said that we could no longer claim for legitimate tax 281 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 282 advice. That is fine. I do not need a tax adviser, unlike Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): On some hon. Members, to handle my personal tax affairs. a point of order, Mr Speaker. At about 4pm today I So we need to have a look at that point. was rung by a reporter from The Daily Telegraph, Mr Christopher Hope, and asked to comment on the Finally—[HON.MEMBERS: “No—more!”]—I come to reply to a written question that he said would be answered corporation tax and an issue that has emerged from tomorrow. I assumed that the question had been answered tonight’s debate. The Budget statement said that corporation and would be reported in Hansard tomorrow. However, tax would be reduced over a four-year period, but the when I checked with the Library, it confirmed that no Bill reduces it for only one year. What confidence does answer had been received. I have also checked with the that give businesses looking to make long-term investments? hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Are we to have some sort of assurance, or is the Bill to Wishart), who tabled the question. He had checked his be amended to ensure that corporation tax is reduced to pigeon hole at about 4pm, and at that time he had not the 24p proposed? received a reply. At 7pm, the Library told me that the I have never spoken about Northern Ireland affairs, question had still not been answered. but I thought this one was too good to miss. There is an Is it in order for the Secretary of State for Communities issue that affects Northern Ireland more than other and Local Government or his agents to give a parliamentary parts of the country: the possibility of driving corporations answer to the press before making it available to the south to the Republic of Ireland. The Chief Secretary hon. Member who asked the question or, indeed, to the said how wonderful it is that our corporation tax rate whole House? What remedies can we have for those will be among the lowest, but the rate in Ireland is Ministers who have such low regard for this House and 12.5%. I know that Members of the Northern Ireland its Members? Assembly are concerned that, even with the decrease, it might be attractive for businesses to move from the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman north to the south. When the Government look at how for his point of order and for advance notice of it. It is, to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy, it will be of course, essential that answers are given, first, to the important to take that point on board. Member concerned, although it sometimes happens The pain in the Budget will affect many constituents that answers go innocently astray. Ministers on the of mine. Thirteen years of Labour Government transformed Treasury Bench and the Government Whip have heard the infrastructure of North Durham. We have two new the point of order and will no doubt ensure that the hospitals, five new primary care centres and GP surgeries, Department discovers what took place. When that is new dentists and new schools. Not only did that have a ascertained, and it should not take long to do so, I beneficial effect on the life chances of many of my would like to be informed. I am grateful to the right constituents, but it put money into the local economy. hon. Gentleman for putting a serious matter on the Now, with yesterday’s announcement on Building Schools record. for the Future, we see that that tap is to be turned off. Just before I call Mr Andrew George, I simply point We are going to go back to the days when I was chair of out to the House that a very large number of Members school governors in Newcastle. Yes, as the Secretary of are still seeking to catch my eye, and I know that State for Education said yesterday, education is about Members will regard it as most helpful, with no reference good teaching—I passionately believe that—but teachers to any particular speech that the House has heard, if I cannot do that if they have to have a bucket to catch the remind it that the Finance Bill is a relatively narrow Bill water leaking through the roof. of, I think, 11 clauses and five schedules. It is approximately The other measure that will have a big impact on my 30 pages, and the thrust of it depends upon, and is constituents is the freeze in public sector pay—something relevant to, I think, seven resolutions of the House. I I feel passionate about. When I was a Minister, I helped thought that that might give it a bit of context and not only Labour Members but all Members in standing reference. up and arguing for our servicemen and women. Frankly, the pay freeze announced by this Government is a 10.12 pm disgrace. When we have people risking their lives in Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is a pleasure to Afghanistan, to impose a pay freeze on them is a disgrace. follow the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). I thank everyone for listening tonight. I shall enjoy If I pick my way through the hyperbole and the political the debates on this Finance Bill, because it is right that points that he sought to make, I find that there were a it gets proper scrutiny and that we explode the myths number of very telling and important facts and figures. that are being propounded. That way, when people in Indeed, it was a thoughtful and constructive contribution my constituency and elsewhere are having their housing in many ways, if a rather encyclopaedic one. When he benefit cut and they are being evicted, they will know opened his remarks, he described it as his first speech—his the reasons why. It is more important that we stop some maiden speech—since the general election, but next of the more horrendous measures in the Bill happening time he is about to speak, I must remind myself not to at all, but if they do happen, we need to be able to be the next speaker. lay the blame in the right place. We expect this from This debate about the Finance Bill—and I accept the Conservatives. The north-east suffered under the your strictures, Mr Speaker—can probably be characterised Conservatives for 18 years. What we do not expect is the by the to-ing and fro-ing between Members on the collaboration that we are seeing from the Liberal Democrats Treasury Bench and Opposition Members. Members on in the coalition, or the pathetic excuses we heard the the Treasury Bench have characterised the emergency hon. Member for Solihull give to justify the horrendous Budget and the Finance Bill that underlies it as an measures that are coming my constituents’ way and unavoidable and regrettable necessity, given the public hers as a result of this Budget. finances and the circumstances in which the country 283 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 284

[Andrew George] in the personal tax allowance was important. I have observed him for many years in the House, and he is an finds itself. On the other hand, Opposition Members honourable person. Will he help Opposition Members have predictably and quite understandably characterised to understand why since April and early May, when he it as entirely ideologically driven and an example of was so violently against any increase in value added tax, political opportunism. he has started supporting a regressive increase in that In my brief contribution, I want to try to acknowledge tax? It would help break down some of the barriers that that, first, as Members on the Treasury Bench have he senses if we could understand the thought process said, we are all in this together. The nature of today’s involved and the discussions that drew him into the debate is that we are all in a political mire of tribal VAT spider’s web. point-scoring and translucent evidence, and that has not shown the House or this debate in a good light. We Andrew George: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady should be trying to get to the nub of the evidence that for that intervention. She has come to the nub of the drives us towards the correct answers; we, as politicians dilemma in which a number of other hon. Members across the political spectrum, are seeking to assist the and I find ourselves. Yes, the VAT increase was not part country. People witnessing the debate will not have been of the coalition agreement. I presupposed that it would enlightened by many of the contributions because of inevitably be regressive and that I would automatically the tribalism into which the House has fallen. [Interruption.] oppose it. The right hon. Lady will be aware that last Hon. Members may well not like that comment. Monday, I tabled an amendment on the Order Paper that sought to get the Treasury to provide the necessary Having said all that, I should add that there were four impact assessment of the 2.5% VAT rise as it applied to beacons of hope in the maiden speeches this evening, families across the income spectrums, to charities and made by the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) to businesses. There was mention of the rural travelling and my hon. Friends the Members for North East public as well. Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay), for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) and for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans). Clive Efford: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? I suppose that I have been implying that I oppose any ideologically driven contribution, but I actually want to Andrew George: I will just make this point, if I may. make one myself. There are very significant questions to be asked about this issue. On page 67 of the Red Book, the changes to Mrs McGuire rose— VAT are described as “progressive”. I question whether Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab) rose— it is entirely accurate to describe a VAT rise as being, on balance, progressive. [Interruption.] I am trying to make Andrew George: May I make this point about the a constructive contribution to the debate; I am not ideologically driven element of the debate? I strongly taking a tribal view of this issue. endorse an element of it. There is a welcome on the Government Benches, and even on the Opposition Benches, Clive Efford rose— for elements of the Finance Bill and the Budget that preceded it. I am thinking of the rise and ultimately the Andrew George: I am going to finish making this further ratcheting up of the personal tax allowance, of point about VAT, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind. the triple lock that will ensure that pensioners get a The best source that most people pray in aid when decent annual pension increase and of the closing of engaged in Treasury and Finance Bill debates is the the tax loophole that has existed for many years. Institute for Fiscal Studies, so I looked at the evidence The loophole was created by Labour’s reduction of that it has gathered on VAT. The hon. Member for capital gains tax to 18%. That has now been increased North Durham referred to that in the context of the to just 28%, and we will certainly have an opportunity graph on page 3 of the Library note. The IFS makes it to debate that issue in the coming weeks. It was an clear that, taking a snapshot in time, those who are important contribution. Furthermore, a banking levy engaged in the highest expenditure will be most affected has been introduced. It is important that the sector that by changes in VAT. dropped us into the mess should make a significant contribution towards helping us get out of it; I would Several hon. Members rose— argue that at this moment its contribution is still not sufficiently significant. Andrew George: I will take more interventions when I have responded to the right hon. Member for Stirling The hon. Member for North Durham’s last comments (Mrs McGuire), who asked a very significant question were about public sector pay. In the Budget, we have that deserves an answer and is the nub of the point that been seeking to protect the lowest-paid in the public sector. I wish to make. Mr Lammy rose— The IFS says that not only do the highest spenders pay the most VAT, but that it is in relation to their Mrs McGuire rose— incomes. Therefore, as the useful graph in the Library note shows, the highest contribution is made by the Andrew George: I shall give way to the right hon. Lady, lowest-income households, which inevitably, under its but I want my contribution to be short. definition, are those with the highest expenditure in relation to income. The IFS goes on to say that we Mrs McGuire: I fully understand some of the hon. should look at the impact on lower-income households Gentleman’s comments about matters of judgment. I from the perspective not just of a snapshot in time but also understand that he thought that the £1,000 increase across a longer period, if not entirely a lifetime. In other 285 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 286 words, its conclusion is much more equivocal. In view Further to the point about whether the increase will of that, we need to understand to a far greater degree have an impact on low-income households, Save the the extent to which the VAT rise is regressive or progressive. Children therefore rightly raises another issue. I should I think it is reasonable— like the Treasury Ministers, in response to my questions and those that others will no doubt raise, to elucidate Kate Green rose— on that a little further. What we need in this debate and in the further stages Mr Lammy rose— of scrutiny that the Bill will necessarily go through is a lot more information. I would describe the situation as Andrew George: Just let me finish my sentence. When a tribal mire in which there is translucent evidence, and I have made this point, I will give way to the hon. that evidence needs to be much clearer. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). I welcome annex A of the Red Book and congratulate Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): I those on the Treasury Benches on introducing it. For am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, the first time, it provides an impact assessment and and I admire his mea culpa—is it St Sebastian, the man evidence of the kind that Labour Members must accept who stands there with all the arrows? Certainly the hon. that they did not provide in the past. However, I still do Gentleman has portrayed that for us this evening. However, not think that it is enough—it is too superficial. I have with respect, the issue is not simply VAT. In his opening asked a large number of questions of the Chancellor of remarks he said he supported the Budget and the Finance the Exchequer, as hon. Members will know, because I Bill because we are all in this together, but we are not. believe that it is important that we understand a great No one sitting in this Chamber or within the environs deal more about the impact of the VAT rise on low-income of this Chamber is in danger of losing their home households, charities, businesses and others. because of the changes that his Government are bringing in with regard to housing benefit, but 303 of my constituents Kate Green: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman are in danger of losing precisely that. They are not alone for giving way, and I hope that my sentences will be a in London or the country at large. The hon. Gentleman little shorter than his. gave a very good mea culpa on VAT, but the complicity Is it not the case that in a complex argument, we are of his party with what the Conservatives are going to do beginning to unpick the cumulative effect on lower-income to our country is not absolved, however long his sentence. households? It is a combination of a hit on their expenditure—not on their luxury spending but on their Mr Speaker: Order. May I just say to the hon. Lady essential spending—and a reduction of their income if that I could listen to her, almost without interruption, they rely on safety-net benefits, because of the future for some hours, but that shorter interventions would be link with the consumer prices index, as well as the risk helpful? It is always a pleasure to listen to her fantastic of their falling out of work and having at least a period enunciation. of unemployment. I believe that the hon. Gentleman is rightly striving to describe that cumulative effect. I very Andrew George: I think that we are all competing in much welcomed his amendment on looking at the impact sentence length—perhaps the hour is causing us to use of the VAT measures on those households. sub-clauses. [Interruption.] I know that I am not the most articulate Member—I have a speech impediment; Andrew George: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady, please bear with me. and we will have to compete on sentence lengths in The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda future. Given her experience on the issue, it is worth Jackson) made a decent point. If she listened carefully while to quote once again the Save the Children briefing to my opening remarks, she will realise that my reference note that was circulated to the House, as the hon. to the “we’re all in it together” theme was intended to Member for North Durham did. As the hon. Lady says, criticise us all for being in it together by missing the there is a cumulative effect, but if any amendments are point and making tribal remarks about the other side, tabled to the Finance Bill, they will be directly related to but not being in it together with the country at large, VAT and other matters will have to be considered in which will suffer through some of the Budget measures. other ways, not necessarily under the Bill. She made further points about my keeping narrowly to The Bill is rather narrowly set, and the Budget mentioned the subject of VAT. Interventions in my speech have other measures, which must presumably come forward been only about VAT, and I wished to make a brief in another Finance Bill that will be presented to us in contribution, which turned out to be much longer than the autumn, so I assume that there will be a further I expected, on VAT. It is important, having commenced opportunity for those issues to be examined, because on that path, to continue on it and examine that provision only seven measures are contained in the 11 clauses of in isolation. I know that it cannot be taken in isolation this rather narrowly drawn Bill. by the families, businesses and charities that it will affect. However, I still believe that it is important to I realise that I have just committed myself to another consider it on its own. very long sentence with an enormous sub-clause in it, but I said that I would quote from the evidence presented The other issues, such as housing benefit, that the to us by Save the Children, which is important. It states: hon. Lady mentioned, are not in the Bill. I hope that the House will have a good opportunity to debate public “Increasing VAT will simply widen inequalities and entrench sector spending and benefits, including disability benefit the unfairness that exists in the tax system...It is also worth noting that data from the Office for National Statistics shows that, on issues, which were announced in the Budget and clearly average, the wealthiest households contain fewer children than need to be debated later, with all the facts made available poorer and middle income households, meaning that the unfairness to us. We currently have a translucent position with of the tax system is weighted against children.” regard to the evidence before us. 287 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 288

Several hon. Members rose— that proposed in the Bill, they need to propose alternatives. Those might include a further increase in the banking Andrew George: I want to draw my remarks to a close. levy or an increase in capital gains tax, or perhaps VAT increases could apply to luxury goods but not to others, Mr Love: You haven’t said anything yet. but alternative measures to fill the £13 billion hole in the public sector accounts would be needed. Andrew George: The hon. Gentleman has obviously not been listening. He is incapable of listening to anything. I hope that future stages of the Bill will provide a more constructive environment in which to debate VAT We require honest and transparent information from and other matters. the Treasury to help us reach a conclusion about the VAT measure’s other impacts. I hope that Treasury Ministers will revisit the issue, perhaps having undertaken 10.37 pm further modelling and commissioned further studies on Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. its impact on low income families, charities and businesses. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), and I hope that they will be prepared to revise their position, the hon. Members for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen if necessary during the Bill’s passage. Barclay) and for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), on their maiden Several hon. Members have mentioned the rural fuel speeches. The description of the blood-red sunsets by derogation and the opportunity for that to be introduced. the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire showed The Chief Secretary promised to go away and make his passion for his constituency, and my hon. Friend some further inquiries about that. I encourage members spoke well of his predecessors and his love of his of the Treasury Bench to examine that carefully because adopted town. The hon. Member for Ipswich, if I may the impact on rural areas will clearly be significant. The say, spoke very little about his constituency for a maiden Chief Secretary made a commitment this evening to speech. It was none the less a maiden speech, and I undertake further studies. congratulate him on it. Nothing sums up the Budget more than the Financial Mr MacNeil rose— Times headline the morning after: “Well paid breathe Andrew George: How can I possibly resist? collective sigh of relief”. The article discusses the impact of capital gains tax, stating: Mr MacNeil: While awaiting the big answer to why “Higher earners expecting to bear the brunt of the chancellor’s the hon. Gentleman is supporting the VAT increase, I tax rises were breathing a collective sigh of relief yesterday, ask him whether he agrees that a rural fuel derogation having been spared major increases to capital gains and income tax in the emergency Budget…Capital gains tax rates of 40 or should be introduced before the VAT increase. After all, 50 per cent and further restrictions to pension tax reliefs had been the rural fuel derogation is mentioned in the coalition forecast by tax advisers in the weeks after the general election. Government’s programme, whereas the VAT increase is When a smaller increase in CGT - just for higher-rate taxpayers - not. The Government have moved lightning quick on and a consultation on allowing pension contributions of £45,000 VAT; let us hope that they move as quickly on the rural a year were announced, many were pleasantly surprised.” fuel derogation. Will he support me on that at least? The director of RBC Wealth Management is quoted in the article. She said: Andrew George: The hon. Gentleman makes a good “Many higher earners will be breathing a sigh of relief.” point. I remain agnostic about the process whereby the goal is achieved, but I wish him well with the aim and The Fair Investment Company, an independent financial share his view, because the issue affects the very rural advice company, made similar exaltations: communities of west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly in “CGT has not been raised up to 50 per cent as speculated and the same way as it affects the Scottish islands. the exemption allowance has not gone down to £2,500 like the Lib Dems proposed, so many higher-rate taxpayers will be breathing David Wright rose— a sigh of relief”. We were told that the Lib Dems and the Tories want Andrew George: I am going to draw my remarks to a to raise £1 in tax for every £4 they cut in public expenditure, close, so I will take no further interventions. My proposal but where is the mandate for making those cuts? At the was purely for VAT impact assessments, and through general election, the majority of the electorate voted for questions to Ministers, I am seeking further information parties that opposed drastic cuts, including an increase on the impact of the VAT increase. in VAT and the proposed austerity Budget to cut public services. Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way—the House has been following his remarks Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): The hon. with some care. Before the Liberal Democrats gave their Gentleman appears to be lamenting the fact that capital consent to the proposals in the Budget, they will have gains tax was not increased by more than proposed in discussed the matter. In the interests of the debate that the Budget. At which point during the 13 years of he is trying to stimulate, was it ever explained in those Labour Government, when capital gains tax was decreased discussions that an extra £9 billion of tax must be raised from 40% to 18%, did he protest that? by the Budget because its overall effect is to slow the recovery to such a serious extent? Clive Efford: The hon. Gentleman misses the point. The point is what the Liberal Democrats said about Andrew George: If the right hon. Gentleman does not capital gains tax before the election and what has happened mind, I will move on. That is part of the debate that he afterwards. I cannot find any record of anybody saying, will no doubt continue with Treasury Ministers. If “Thank God we have the Liberal Democrats to water Labour Members wish to avoid a VAT increase such as down this horrible Tory Budget”. No one is saying 289 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 290 that—[Interruption.] As much as the Liberal Democrats pollution taxes”. They said their tax reform would be try to dance on a pinhead over the VAT increases and the most radical in a generation—any takers on the how they have looked for an investigation into VAT so Conservative Benches for a radical change from the that they can all cuddle up at night and sleep well Liberal Democrats? I think not! Their manifesto also knowing that they have not made life awful for poor included a pledge people—they claim that they have forced the Government “to put 600 more police on the capital’s streets and an extra £520 into a review—what will they really do about it? million a year in London schools.” Instead, however, we have seen a cut in Building Schools Mr Kevan Jones: In fact, the hon. Member for Solihull for the Future and in police numbers, and we are going (Lorely Burt) not only did not make excuses for the to see a rise in unemployment as a result of their increase, she tried to justify it. support for the Budget.

Clive Efford: What we have heard in several debates is Mrs Moon: Is my hon. Friend, like me, going back to so much hand wringing that I have almost started to his constituency and finding a high level of concern, feel sorry for the Liberal Democrats. They must be in fear and anxiety about the future? This is not just about agony from all the crushed fingers they have from the VAT proposals in the Finance Bill; people are wringing their hands so tightly in trying to explain away nervous about the future, their budgets and their capacity the impact of the VAT increase. to spend and have a secure future. People are nervous about, and afraid of, every aspect of the Con-Dem Toby Perkins: Was my hon. Friend as surprised as I coalition. was that during the Budget debate the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) said: Clive Efford: My hon. Friend is right. That applies “Opposition Members have accused us of being ideological not just to individuals but to businesses. Many people about the matter, but how can we be anything else? They are are expressing concern about the impact of this emergency absolutely right, and there is no shame in it”.—[Official Report, Budget. 24 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 515.] I shall continue. On 8 April, the Deputy Prime Minister He was clear that it was a Thatcherite Tory Budget that said on Sky News: he was proud of. The Liberal Democrats are being used as a sort of human shield to defend a Budget that in “We will not have to raise VAT to deliver our promises. The Conservatives will. Let me repeat that: our plans do not require a other circumstances would have appalled them. rise in VAT. The Tory plans do.” Lorely Burt: That’s an old phrase! Well, we all know it is a Tory plan now, do we not? And we all know who is voting for it. Clive Efford: Well, I am sorry, but the hon. Lady will What are the public to make of this sudden about-face? hear it again and again, because it happens to be true. Who has the moral mandate for this level of tax increase and for taking this proportion of tax to pay for the During the general election the Prime Minister—he deficit as opposed to rolling back the state? Where is the was Leader of the Opposition at the time—said to mandate for making the poorest pay for this Budget as Jeremy Paxman on “Newsnight” on 23 April: they will? More importantly, however, where is the “We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT. Our first budget is contribution from the banks? all about recognising we need to get spending under control rather than putting up tax”. Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): The hon. In his closing remarks in the leaders’ debate, he said that Gentleman has given us an interesting list of quotes and he believed that the test of a good society is how it looks dates. Will he point to the date on which his own after the poorest and most vulnerable in difficult times. Front-Bench team ruled out raising VAT during the Well it did not take him long to fail that test. He general election? promises good times ahead and a clean break. Who for? It is certainly not for the poorest in our communities. Clive Efford: The hon. Gentleman is new to the The Deputy Prime Minister—I remind the House that House—and he might well be new to politics—but I am he was the leader of the Liberal Democrats in opposition— sure that, if he looks in his history books and reads all said during the election campaign: the quotes, he will find that most parties going into an “The Conservatives have made a series of uncosted tax promises, election do not rule out such an increase, unlike in the tax bribes.” foolish statements made on “Newsnight” by the now That was referring to Tory promises to recognise marriage Prime Minister and during the general election by the in the tax system, limit the national insurance rise, Liberal Democrats. freeze council tax, and raise inheritance tax thresholds. Now there is trouble at’ mill—we have some problems He continued: here—because Sir Alan Budd has resigned. Can anyone “The only way that they are going to deliver their tax promises tell me how a man who only a short while ago described is by dropping a tax bombshell, a VAT bombshell of £389 a year his job as on every household in this country.” “the most exciting challenge of my professional life” What changed his mind? Was it when the ministerial can have given up so quickly? This man must have the Prius turned up outside his house or was it before that? most exciting job coming up to give up such a prospect The Liberal Democrats launched their London election already. How have we lost the head of the Office for manifesto claiming that under them Londoners would Budget Responsibility so quickly? Perhaps my right save some £700 a year. They said that tax cuts would be hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill paid for by “closing loopholes” and “increasing aviation (Mr Byrne) can tell me whether there is a revolving door 291 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 292

[Clive Efford] inflation, without seeing a significant improvement in the position of the economy? That is particularly dangerous at the Treasury. We lost the first Chief Secretary to the at a time when we are making savage cuts in public Treasury and now we have lost the head of the OBR. spending. They are going in and out so quickly that, if they have not got a revolving door, they should put one in pretty Clive Efford: I agree with my hon. Friend. There are quick. It would make it much more efficient for people plenty of eminent economists saying that this is not the when leaving their posts so quickly. time to draw back the fiscal stimulus. What has changed Sir Alan Budd’s mind? Has he However, the point that I want to make is that the changed his mind? The Treasury is assuming that growth reduction in the debt that the then Chancellor was able in the private sector will create 2.5 million jobs in the to announce in the March Budget was due to the next five years to compensate for the spending squeeze. intervention of the Government. There was less Can the Minister tell me when since the second world unemployment, we were paying out less in unemployment war the private sector has ever grown that quickly? benefit, and there were more people in work and more When has it ever created that many jobs? We have had businesses; therefore, the tax income was higher than unprecedented growth over the past 13 years, and it had been predicted, indicating that the way through the only just created that many jobs in that period. How recession is not this austere Budget, but continuing with can these projections point towards the creation of the stimulus until growth is stronger. 2.5 million jobs? Perhaps the Liberal Democrats are However, the worrying thing now is that, following going to tell us, because they had a cup of tea with the the emergency Budget, businesses are starting to question Governor of the Bank of England, after which we saw a whether growth is on its way. As the Financial Times miraculous turnaround—perhaps there was something has said: in the tea. Perhaps they can now explain to us what was “Britain’s…services sector expanded in June…at the slowest said that convinced them that miraculous growth in the rate in 10 months…The Markit/CIPS UK services Purchasing private sector was going to solve this country’s economic Managers Index…for June was weaker than consensus forecasts problems, as we undergo the most unprecedented assault among economists, showing a 54.4 headline reading, down from on the state ever attempted in peacetime. 55.4 in May. Economists had expected a more modest decline…of 55…It was the weakest reading since August 2009…Business We have also seen figures leaked from the Treasury. expectations went from a reading of 72.1…to 64…The Services The Government expect between 500,000 and 600,000 PMI is particularly closely watched because it accounts for the jobs to go in the public sector and between 600,000 and greatest share of private sector business output…‘Worrying signs 700,000 to disappear in the private sector up to 2015, for the UK service sector appeared in June as growth slowed in but how is it that the figures leaked from the Treasury response to another below par increase in new business…Confidence contradicted the figures from the OBR? I am wondering declined to the greatest extent in 14 years of data collection in reaction to the government’s austere emergency budget, with about that, so perhaps someone can give me an answer, concern expressed that the fiscal tightening could push the country because the figures are compiled by the very same back into recession.’” people. Treasury officials compile the figures for the According to the Financial Times: OBR, and the leaked figures are from the Treasury. I am therefore a little bit confused, but perhaps somebody “The Purchasing Managers’ Index figures came in amid signs that global manufacturing took a hit in June, with China, the US can explain that one for me—perhaps the Liberal and the eurozone all seeing weaker growth in the sector. The Democrats have an answer for us, as they are so enthusiastic report on exports came as a survey of credit conditions by the about the Budget. UK Bank of England underlined the concern at the prospects for The Chancellor has said that some have suggested demand in the UK. Credit conditions were expected to deteriorate by the most since the first quarter of 2009, when the recession was that there is a choice between dealing with our debts at its deepest.” and going for growth, but that this is a false choice, and I agree with him. There is indeed a choice, as Sir Alan What we are seeing there is the extreme concern in the Budd also agrees. However, the OBR actually agreed business sector since the Budget was announced— with the figures for growth based on our March Budget [Interruption.] I hope the Liberal Democrats are listening and the figures for unemployment; in fact, it considered to this. The construction sector in particular accounts our figures to be conservative. The March Budget statement for 10% of our GDP, and public sector expenditure was also able to announce that debt had been reduced accounts for 40% of the construction industry. The by £11 billion, which is an important point. The debt announcement yesterday—such as it was—from the had been reduced because there was more income tax, Secretary of State for Education that he was drastically more national insurance, more VAT income and more cutting back on schemes such as Building Schools for tax from businesses. A further announcement was made the Future will make it even more difficult for the subsequent to the general election, with a further reduction Government to deliver growth in employment and growth of £5 billion, to which my right hon. Friend the Member in the private sector, because they are rowing in completely for Birmingham, Hodge Hill referred in his opening the opposite direction. speech for the Opposition. Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that the VAT rise will have an effect on new house starts in the David Wright (Telford) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend construction sector, which is very fragile in my constituency agree that, on the basis of the growth figures and and many others? The increase will have a dramatic cutbacks in public spending that he has outlined, the effect not only on new builds but on the local builders real danger in the Budget is not that we will see a who rely on building extensions and loft conversions. double-dip recession—none of us wants that to happen— but that we will end up repeating the Japanese model, Clive Efford: It will indeed; my hon. Friend is absolutely bumping along the bottom in terms of growth and right. 293 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 294

The Guardian website on Sunday 4 July stated: The Deputy Prime Minister kept digging during the “CBI disappointed by extra £4 billion capital spending cut. general election, and on 20 April accused the bankers of Spending on building and infrastructure projects, many of them behaving like “Arthur Scargill in pinstripes”. He then to support private sector businesses, will fall faster than expected went on to say: after the chancellor announced £6.2 billion emergency cuts three weeks ago, with £2 billion of the total from capital expenditure “The banks have basically been given untrammelled support projects. The CBI said: ‘Capital investment is crucial to driving by Labour and Conservative governments to do exactly what they the economy forward and the government needs to make sure we like, and take massive risks with our livelihoods and our savings. get back to the long-run average of 2.25% of national income as They have been holding a gun to the economy. A progressive soon as possible’.” liberal like myself is not going to be squeamish about blowing the whistle on a vested interest.” Are you listening on the Liberal Democrat Benches? What they are voting for is just above 1%. Well, where is it? Where is the whistleblowing on those vested interests? Stephen Williams: I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s The Liberal Democrat website—I do not know whether oral press cutting service. I was listening, enraptured, Liberal Democrat Members ever look at it—still says and waiting for him to contradict the hon. Member for that they are going to bring “fundamental change” to North Durham (Mr Jones) and tell him that VAT is not our banking system. applied to new builds. “We will break them up and break them down.” Clive Efford: My hon. Friend— It continues: “Until such a time, the taxpayer will have to continue underwriting Mr Byrne: Was my hon. Friend alarmed, as I was, that the banks”— the Finance Bill says nothing about preserving either well, we know that from this Budget. zero rating or exempt categories for VAT, including for building services, for the rest of this Parliament? “To recognise this, we are proposing a new levy on bank profits at a rate of 10%...This levy would be supplementary to corporation Clive Efford: We have seen so many unexpected changes tax”. from the parties opposite, and my right hon. Friend is Well, where did that happen? If we look at corporation absolutely right to draw our attention to the fact that tax outcomes—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for they have been silent on that issue. Cheadle (Mark Hunter) intervenes from a sedentary I have another question about the Bill. Where does it position. Would he like to repeat what he just said? I mention the tax on the banks? When can we expect to think he said that the Lib Dems did not win. Well, we all see that measure before us? Why is it not part of the know that; that is why we are complaining about what Bill? Perhaps the Liberal Democrats would like to intervene they are doing. on me to tell me when we can expect to see it. We are If I look at what the banks are saying about corporation told that it will be consulted on. If that is the case, is it tax, I find that they are rewarded and compensated for going to go up or down, or is it going to stay as it is? the £2 billion levy that the Budget wants to raise. We What is the point of consulting the bankers—I assume have some more juicy quotes here; the Lib Dems might that that is who the Government are going to consult—on want to listen to them. Here is one: something that they would rather did not happen? “Bankers were relieved that the chancellor’s speech failed to The Liberal Democrats told us that they were going repeat the coalition government’s threat to end ‘unacceptable to break up the casino banking system. The Secretary bonuses’”. of State for Business, Innovation and Skills wanted the Deutsche Bank analysts noted the significance of the banks to be broken down into smaller banks, separating corporation tax change: casino banking from normal banking. Yet we are told that the Chancellor opposes this and has set up a “Taking 2% off the 2012 tax rate for the five banks listed in the UK would increase profit by £1.16bn, that is it should almost commission to look into it, which will take at least a offset all of the banks’ tax. Overall a good outcome for the year, thereby kicking it into the long grass. [Interruption.] banks.” I hear a sedentary intervention that we are dealing with the Finance Bill. Yes we are, and this is not in the A number of bank analysts calculated that some Finance Bill, but it is an integral part of the Budget. It is banks could benefit from the Chancellor’s measures. As therefore legitimate to ask where it is, when it is going to I have said, Deutsche Bank concluded that it was a happen and what the consultation will be about, because “good outcome” for banks, while an analyst at UBS it impacts on what taxes we raise on the people we expected Lloyds and HSBC to benefit by 2012 because represent. [Interruption.] I say to the hon. Member for the cut in their corporation tax bill was larger than the St Ives (Andrew George) who did not make a very good hit that they sustained through the bank levy. HSBC job of defending his position on the increase, that that banking analysts concurred: includes VAT. “We’d expect most domestically-orientated banks, for example On 12 March the Deputy Prime Minister called for a Lloyds, to be better off after four years than they were pre-budget”. 10% tax on bank profits and a £2 billion job creation How has it come about that a party that went through scheme to rescue the victims of recession. We keep the general election giving all those quotes about how being told by the Liberal Democrats that they have had they were going to break the banks up and break them an enormous impact on this Budget, so perhaps they down, and make the bankers pay until the pips squeaked, could explain the impact they made here. I would have has come to support a Budget that takes from the supported and voted for a 10% tax on bankers’ profits, bankers with one hand, pays it back with the other and instead of for taking people’s benefits away from them rewards the banks with a tax benefit at the end of it? or for poor families paying VAT increases. After all, And at the same time they will be marching through the where did the financial problems start? Lobbies to the drumbeats of the Tories, voting for cuts 295 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 296

[Clive Efford] It is clear that these changes go further than is necessary to deal with the deficit. They do little or in benefits and an increase in VAT, and making the nothing to recoup money from the banks that have put poorest people in our communities pay, when the banks the country in its present position, and they are clearly are not paying. unfair on the poorest in our communities. This is the It was all puff and wind from the Liberal Democrats last point that I shall make to the Liberal Democrats. If during the election. We have heard it all before, and we they fundamentally believe that cutting back the state is are hearing it again. This time, however, they have what the country should do, they will come back for actually got to vote for something. They are actually in the national health service. It is not consistent with the charge and responsible for what they are voting for, and measures in the Budget that it is possible to protect the they are going to pay a very heavy price indeed. national health service—a public service that intervenes at every level in people’s lives—and cut back other Andrew George: What about the 10p tax rate? aspects of the state. The Liberal Democrats and the Tories will have to Clive Efford: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like come for the NHS. We only have to look at people such to intervene. I think he was shouting about the 10p tax as Mr Daniel Hannan and the speech that he made in rate. There were problems with that, and I will tell the America. He was personally invited by the Prime Minister House what they were. I will be quite frank. The 10p tax to speak at the Tory party conference, lauds the private rate did not direct enough money to the poorest people sector and wants to cut the NHS and to move to a in our communities. When we hear about the uprating private health insurance system. Those are the people at of the lowest tax threshold from the Benches opposite, the heart of the thinking of the Tory party. I suggest what we do not hear about is the clawback from the that the Liberal Democrats think very carefully before poorest people, who will lose housing benefit and other they vote for the Budget. It is an ideological Budget to benefits. We never hear the full story from the Liberal cut back the state. They will not be able to defend the Democrats when they are spinning on a pinhead to try NHS once they have gone through the Lobby and voted to protect themselves from the charge of having said for this Budget. one thing and done another. I could go on. The Liberal Democrats are such an Several hon. Members rose— easy target that I could be here all night. However, I will end by saying this. It is clear that what is before us Mr Speaker: Order. I think that I should say to the tonight is not about the deficit, whatever excuses we House that, although I cannot possibly predict such hear from the Government Benches. This is an ideological matters, it may well be that at some stage I shall be asked change. Either Members believe that the state should to grant a closure. One of the factors in the decision intervene and assist, in particular, the weakest in our making of the occupant of the Chair faced with such a communities, or they do not. A stark choice is involved request is the extent to which contributions continue to in terms of what Members support in this Bill. be pithy and relate to the terms of the Bill. I say no There are 61 million people employed in the public more than that. sector. Some 3.9 million work in health, education, defence and social work, and roughly 2 million are 11.11 pm employed in other services, including 530,000 civil servants. Those figures are huge, and those people are essential to Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I, too, congratulate many of our communities and to our economy. Moreover, the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and my 25% of public sector expenditure goes on private sector hon. Friends the Members for North East Cambridgeshire goods and services. The private sector will find it impossible (Stephen Barclay), for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), and for to fill the gap left by the reduction in the public sector, Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) on their excellent speeches. as those who support the Budget try to claim it will. I also congratulate the hon. Member for North Durham That 25% that feeds the private sector will be taken (Mr Jones), who has just departed, who spoke with such away from it when it is trying to grow. Expecting the eloquence about the need for parliamentary reform. His private sector to grow at a rate that would enable it to passion brings a tear to the eye of the Leader of the fill that gap is just a pipe dream. House; of that I have no doubt whatever. In its document “The Jobs Gap”, the Work Foundation Turning to the Bill, I will be brief. I personally am predicted that the private sector could possibly absorb saddened by the need for clause 3, on VAT, to be 500,000 job losses in the public sector, but that any included in the Bill. It is a great shame that it is plausible private sector recovery would be overwhelmed necessary to take difficult action in relation to taxes if the number approached 1 million. According to the because of the extreme black hole left in the public predictions, it will considerably exceed half a million. finances. We now find ourselves in a position where The foundation also warned that it was risky to assume debt is 62% of GDP this year—higher than the 54% in that big cuts in public sector payrolls could be effortlessly 1976, when the International Monetary Fund was last absorbed by the private sector. There is often a mismatch called in. That is the level of seriousness of the debt that in skills, which creates a delay in people finding jobs in we have. The ratio of debt to GDP is predicted to go to the private sector, and the recovery tends to come in the 70% in the next three years, even with the tough action most prosperous areas at the expense of the most taken by the Government. impoverished. The Chartered Institute of Personnel I for one am relieved, however, particularly because and Development has estimated that 725,000 jobs will taxes could have been a lot higher. The black hole could be lost in the public sector alone by 2015, although the have been filled in other ways. We have taken the number could be lower if the Government succeeded in difficult decisions on public spending, but we on the pushing through pay cuts. Government Benches know that if there had not been a 297 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 298 change in government, we would have seen not only a What we need is for the UK to grow faster, because rise in VAT but a possible £20 billion tax increase, with the best cure for deprivation is a job. Too many jobs income tax perhaps going to 25p in the pound. That is were taken away by the previous Government’s galactic the size of the black hole that we have been looking at. economic incompetence, and we need to have change, I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on the so I want to make the case for that. Will the UK grow Treasury Bench on taking the firm action required, faster with a larger public sector? Will the UK grow because I worry about the least well-off. I worry that the faster with even higher taxes, as were planned by the rich-poor divide has widened since 1996-97. I worry previous Government? Will the UK grow faster with that since 2004-05 child poverty has risen by 300,000. I ever more debt, or would that only result in ever higher welcome the fact that it will be frozen for the next two interest rates, a weaker currency, an increased country years. I am concerned that the number of children in risk and our country’s credit rating at risk? I think that overcrowded homes has risen from 980,000 in 2006 to the right decisions have been taken, because the UK 1,080,000 in 2008, according to Communities and Local will grow faster with a lower jobs tax. Government figures. I am concerned that the housing waiting list has risen from 1 million in 2001 to 1.8 million Chris Leslie: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman in 2009, according to CLG figures. I am also concerned recalls what the so-called “independent”Office for Budget that disposable income rose by only 1% a year between Responsibility said about the downgrading of growth 2004-05 and 2008—and that was before the current forecasts as a direct result of these Budget measures. difficulties hit home. What was the OBR’s finding? Did it say that growth would increase or decrease as a result of the measures in I, for one, welcome the difficult decisions taken on the Budget? capital gains tax in clause 2. Personally, I think that that is the right thing to do. I have always taken a more Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman will know that Lawsonian approach. A difficult decision has been made, the OBR itself said that that was misleading. He will but it is essential that everyone pays their fair share of also know that the OBR ruled that the figures set out in tax. I regret that we are not keeping a more ameliorated the March Budget were a total work of fiction and a position for those who own business assets, but I think disgrace, and it downgraded them. The true downgrade that those who own country estates, oil paintings or was that of GDP growth by 0.5% to 1% by the OBR buy-to-let empires should pay a fair share of tax. when it put right the fiction that had been produced We know that that is the right approach to take, previously, and the misleading about the economics of because the figures from the past few years show that our nation. The hon. Gentleman does not have a leg to the level of private rented sector property rose from stand on. 10% of housing stock in 2000 to 14% in 2008. Meanwhile, This country will grow faster with a lower jobs tax, the total social housing stock fell from 4.25 million with lower borrowing and with a low rate of corporation properties to just 4 million in 2009, according to CLG tax, as set out in clause 1. The key point that I want to figures. The level of owner occupation fell from 71% in make is that the fall should be faster, because I want to 2003 to 68% in 2008, according to CLG figures. I regard see a corporation tax rate of just 19% in this nation by that with concern, because where people need assistance the end of this Parliament; that would give us a real we should have affordable housing there for them. The revolution. I would like us to have a participation number of new affordable houses built also fell under exemption, as exists in the Netherlands, Ireland and the previous Government. Where people have the requisite other places, to make our nation a European headquarters funds to buy their own home they should be encouraged company of the European time zone. I think that capital and helped to do so. So I commend this Budget to the gains tax is necessary, but business assets should be House. taxed lower. That was one of the few things that the former Prime Minister got absolutely right, and it is a Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): great shame that we do not have a differential level, or a If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned about housing, higher entrepreneur’s relief. Ideally, that would be extended, how does he feel about his Government’s decision to cut because we need to encourage more jobs and growth, the Homes and Communities Agency by £60 million? and an expansion of the private sector. Some £4.5 million of that cut will have an impact on I particularly welcome the new business national new homes that were supposed to be built in my insurance relief, which is extraordinarily important. constituency. How does he feel about the most recent Obviously, as a representative of Dover, I would say announcements on housing allowance, which mean that that ideally it should be extended across the nation, people in my constituency are having to make up a especially in deprived areas of the south-east that have shortfall of £50 a month? benefited from social structural European funds—not just Dover but other parts of east Kent and the south-east. Charlie Elphicke: I point out to the hon. Lady that We need to clear away the deprivation and the benefits the number of affordable houses built in 1995-96 was culture that has grown up in recent years so that we can 74,530, whereas the average for the previous Government’s unlock the potential, the hope and the chances in each entire tenure was just 40,000 affordable homes built and every citizen of our nation. If we get them off each year. Why was that? Last year’s figure was 20,000 benefits and back into work and break the cycle of below what was achieved under the outgoing Conservative poverty, we bring hope and unlock that potential. That Government. As I said, we built 74,000-odd a year, to me is the most important thing—to give everyone in whereas last year the previous Government built 55,000, this country a real crack at opportunity in life. In this so I do not think that they have any record to stand on Budget and this Finance Bill, difficult and bold decisions when it comes to affordable housing, except that of a have been taken, but they are the right decisions, and roll of shame. Their record is an absolute disgrace. I support the Bill. 299 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 300

11.20 pm the exposure to debt and whether, in the long run, that debt will be manageable for borrowers? Our difficulty at Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and present, looking at the evidence elsewhere, is that the Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): “Fair” and “unavoidable” are markets are nervous about the ability of countries—even the two adjectives that have been attached to the Budget ones as stable as ours—to manage in the long run by the Government parties. It seems to me that the continuing increases in debt and to pay it back. claim to fairness has been exploded, not just by Opposition Members and sometimes by Liberal Democrat Members but by the independent analysts who have established Gregg McClymont: Keynes famously said that, in the the regressive nature of many of the measures in the long run, we are all dead. To be fair to the hon. Budget. I want to concentrate on the claims that there is Gentleman, there is a serious point there, to which I was no alternative, that the markets are demanding deficit just coming. elimination on the scale and at the speed proposed in As I said, the first superstition encourages a second: the Budget and that the Government are simply responding that states, like households, must not carry debt over the to economic facts. long term. But if that is untrue for households, it is even Government Members talk about political economy less relevant for states, because states are different from as if it is a perfect science. The hon. Member for households. First, nations do not have to balance their Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), who payments over a life cycle as an individual does; unlike is not in his place, suggested that the Office for Budget individuals, states are here for the long term. That is an Responsibility was objective, the corollary being that it important point. Secondly, states’ ability to borrow is was reliable. The Government present the pronouncements much greater than that of any private citizen. States of the OBR as gospel, at least when they are convenient may borrow much more cheaply than any individual, for Ministers. They offer technocratic diktats. The simply because the amount of economic activity within Government claim the support of infallible markets any state’s borders is much greater than the economic and independent institutions. What they deny is that activity to which any individual has access. I therefore any Budget is inherently a political act as well as an disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that point. economic one. Listening to the Chancellor deliver his More important, states have obligations to the societies Budget, I got a pretty good idea of what his new politics they serve in a way that households do not. States can involved. He thinks that these vital political economy use their ability to borrow to support demand at a time decisions are not a matter for him: he can absolve of low private sector activity. Pull away that support for himself of responsibility. The OBR will provide the the economy and private sector firms are discouraged figures; the OECD is the supposed authority, the markets from investing, the tax take is reduced and spending the excuses. and unemployment are pushed up; ultimately, the deficit The issue of supply—the very reason this House is made worse. That is the paradox of Government came into existence—will be determined by what Ministers thrift. We learned it in the 1930s. The Liberal Democrats declare to be unavoidable. But political economy is not warned us of its dangers up until 7 May. Now, that an exact science. It is a matter of priorities and judgment. lesson seems to be totally lost on both elements in the It is almost always informed by ideology, self-interest Government. and party interest. How could it be other otherwise Government Members claim that the fiscal deficit is when economists rarely agree on anything? Put two crowding out private investment by pushing up interest economists in a room and you will get three opinions. rates and making investment more expensive. Crowding No, the Budget is deeply political. It embodies the out is not an insignificant issue and it does have some long-held superstitions of the Conservative party, relevance in conditions of full employment when an superstitions that come to the fore in times of economic economy is at full capacity, but we are nowhere near stress—the 1920s, 1930s, 1970s, 1980s, and now again in that point. As the right hon. Member for Wokingham 2010. However, these superstitions are not fully articulated (Mr Redwood) pointed out, the private sector has taken by Conservative Members. They emerge almost accidentally a real battering in the past two or three years. Excess through their rhetoric, but they are worth examining capacity is manifest. In my view, there is a much simpler because they are the real motivation for the coalition explanation for low private sector investment: the private Budget. sector is not investing and banks are not lending because The first superstition is that debt, no matter what the they fear that households will not have the confidence circumstances, is unnatural and wrong for economic or the ability to buy goods. man or woman other than in the short term. This is a What do we use to restore confidence? So far, we have superstition since it denies the reality that many households used monetary policy, but it is not clear to me how and individuals balance their books only in the long much further we can take that. Interest rates are already term. They and we often have levels of debt that surpass at rock bottom. We cannot reduce them much further if our annual incomes for many years. Otherwise, no one this Budget tips the economy back into recession or, as would be able to afford a mortgage. The fact is that debt my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) is a sensible mechanism for acquiring funds for responsible suggested earlier, it has us bumping along the bottom. investments as long as repayments are manageable. At that stage, if the recovery does not take place along That first superstition encourages a second: states, like the lines the Government claim it will, the only instruments households, must not carry debt over the long term. of monetary policy at our disposal would be further quantitative easing or a further devaluation of the Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The hon. pound to encourage exports. That could be dangerous, Gentleman makes an important point. Does he accept encouraging exactly the increased inflation and higher that debt and the ability to borrow are not simply a interest rates that Government Members fear. In my function of one’s ability to pay, but of the perception of opinion, fiscal policy continues to have a role to play. 301 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 302

I mentioned two superstitions that I think underpin I should like to address one final superstition—that the Government’s attitude, but there is a third: the idea, austerity inspires confidence among the bond markets repeated over and over, that our national debt is that finance our debts and the consumers who drive unprecedented historically and exceptional internationally. demand and growth. That belief suits the Chancellor’s That is the basis on which the Government claim over purposes admirably, as he and his colleagues have done and over again that public spending is out of control. much to undermine confidence in our economy and They assert again and again that we have left the public finances. They style themselves as the remedy for nation’s finances in a mess, and that is the context for a moral panic of their own making, but as I have suggested the spectre of a sovereign debt crisis. there is little hard evidence to support what they say. The hard-headed realists on the Government Benches The Minister of State, Department for Transport want to sacrifice real services and real jobs here and now, (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Yes. on the basis of what they think the markets might desire of them later. We may yet find that those gods are as Gregg McClymont: Indeed, they assent. My own view inscrutable as they are insatiable. There is a fine line between is that the political rhetoric is at odds with the economic confidence based on reduced deficits and confidence reality, and I shall tell them why. Several colleagues have based on growth. It suggests that markets that smile on noted that the average maturity of British sovereign austerity now may punish us for low growth later. debt is 14 years— In my opinion, the coalition Government and their policies have had little discernible impact on international Mr Speaker: Order. I am listening to the speech by confidence in the British economy. More important has the hon. Gentleman with the closest interest, and it been the lack of confidence in the eurozone; relatively certainly has the manner of an economic treatise, which speaking, confidence in our economy has grown. But is of some interest, but I am just trying to fathom to the scaremongering about the public finances has already which part of the Bill his comments relate. I have not had a clear negative impact on the confidence of ordinary yet found it, but I have a feeling that he is about to men, women and businesses, on whom the country’s demonstrate it to me. recovery rests. Gregg McClymont: Thank you for that guidance, To conclude, the Budget has little to do with progressive Mr Speaker. As I suggested at the outset, everything in or necessary austerity; it is acutely political in intention. the Finance Bill depends on a view about confidence in The long-term objective is to reduce the financial burden the economy, and I was trying to suggest that the on those who tend to vote Conservative by reducing the Government’s confidence in their own prescription is size of the public sector. That is the context in which the misplaced. However, I shall try to follow your advice Conservative claim that the public deficit is the biggest and move on. threat to recovery must be understood. The Budget is profoundly political and not unavoidable. It reflects the Government debt is still at historically low levels. It superstition, self-interest and party interest of the modern is edging towards 70% of GDP, but for 60 of the past Conservative party. I, for one, will not be supporting it. 100 years Government debt was at that level or higher, and that undermines the claims for an historic level of debt. It is true that those debts were incurred fighting 11.36 pm two world wars, but the recent and more modest expansion Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Thank of the national debt also happened in exceptional you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to circumstances. I hope that Government Members will speak in this debate. I should like first to congratulate not forget the scale of the crisis that the world economy my fellow new Members, from all parties, on their recently suffered. In 2009, global GDP shrank by 2.4%, maiden speeches. I am also grateful to Opposition Members the first decline since world war two, and the Budget for their passionate speeches in this debate. must be considered in that context of global depression. The Bill represents only the tip of the iceberg when it The political obsession with debt is dangerous and comes to the regressive impact of the Government’s has distorted the Government’s economic priorities as plans. I want to focus on the effects of the Finance Bill set out in the Bill. Our public deficit is just one of many on constituencies such as mine, which falls in the London causes for concern about our future economic performance, borough of Tower Hamlets. Although we recognise the and that is why Labour had a plan to restrain public need to reduce the Budget deficit, the depth and speed spending when the recovery was secured. Labour led of the cuts and some of the tax rises, such as the VAT Britain out of recession last year through stronger growth rise—all under the euphemism of fiscal consolidation— and lower unemployment, supported by an active industrial mask an inherently unjust, unfair and unequal Budget, policy and global co-operation. This Government, by of which the Bill is a significant part. It will hurt the contrast, offer us nothing but scaremongering about the poorest and most vulnerable in our society and leave national debt and competitive deflation with our economic hard-working families and small businesses around the partners. country in constituencies such as mine high and dry. What of job creation? In oral questions last week, the The Bill will have a detrimental effect on the life Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change chances of families on modest incomes. It will increase compared the previous Government’s target of 1.2 million suffering and deprivation. I welcome the increase in new green jobs to the sector targets that Gosplan set in capital gains tax, one of the few progressive aspects of the Soviet Union. The Opposition might have had plans the Bill, but for many in constituencies such as mine it is and targets for job creation, but the Government have small comfort given that their homes, jobs, local schools targets for the destruction of jobs. That is what we and the very services on which they rely to thrive will be learned from the Treasury leak last week, and that is devastated. It makes a mockery of the notion that we where an obsession with public debt leaves us. are all in this together. 303 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 304

[Rushanara Ali] heart of hearts that this VAT increase is bad for the British economy, does nothing to create fairness and I turn now to the impact of the Bill on poverty. social justice and does nothing to protect the most Unlike Conservative Governments of the past, the coalition vulnerable in our country to think again and to vote Government have claimed to be progressive. That is with us. how the Bill should be judged, and that is how the People on modest incomes in constituencies such as country will judge it. mine will have to make terrible choices between heating or feeding and clothing their families, or between new Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Does the pairs of shoes for their children and taking the bus to hon. Lady not accept that under the last Government work. Sadly, those are the kinds of choices that some the gap between the richest and the poorest grew? I feel people will be forced to make because they are already that what she is saying now is a contentious way of on low incomes, struggling to cope in this difficult suggesting that somehow the Conservative-Liberal coalition economic climate. We know that in periods of recession is attacking the poorest. people turn to loan sharks because they find it difficult to get other loans, and end up heavily indebted and Rushanara Ali: We all know that income inequality trapped. We also know that despite efforts by the previous rises in periods of boom. It is not acceptable, and Government, many of the poorest people in this country personally I would rather that we had been able to do still suffer from being in a poverty trap. Despite those much more. As under previous Governments, income efforts, child poverty still has not been reduced by as inequality increased. However, social inequality decreased. much as we would have liked. I believe that this Budget, Like many Opposition and Government Members I particularly the VAT increase, will continue to damage worked passionately to reduce poverty and we did reduce vulnerable families. In Tower Hamlets, in constituencies child poverty nationally. I regret that we did not manage such as mine, the Budget cuts have already amounted to to achieve comparable reductions in child poverty in about £9 million, and a further £55 million of cuts are London. proposed over the next three years. The Government’s cuts will be judged on the measure Although I welcome the bankers levy, where is the of progressivism, and it is a great shame that the Bill is justice and fairness in raising just £2 billion, with no not progressive enough. Using VAT to raise £13 billion provision being made to tax bonuses? We may contrast is a regressive choice. Save the Children estimates that that with the £6 billion of bankers’ bonuses and with the poorest families in Britain will face VAT bills of the billions of pounds of public service cuts for ordinary about £1,600 a year. The Treasury’s own figures show families and workers, and it just does not seem adequate. that the poorest are affected three times as much as I am not saying that the public do not want to see the others by changes in VAT. Many have argued that that deficit cut, but where is the justice in such a comparatively is offset by the exempted expenditure on food and small levy compared with what the public have to pay? children’s clothing, but it is quite the opposite. The poorest 10% of households already spend a higher Toby Perkins: My hon. Friend is making a powerful proportion of their disposable incomes on VAT—about case. Does she share my view that any Budget that is 14% compared with about 5% for the top 10%. supposed to have us all in it together but leaves the These changes, combined with announcements in the bankers and the super-rich feeling tremendously relieved Budget such as those on housing benefit, disability and the most deprived people in our communities horrified living allowance and other kinds of fixed income, alongside by what they are facing cannot possibly achieve any the removal of some £3 billion of support to families, measure of fairness? will devastate many of the vulnerable families in Rushanara Ali: I agree completely. My constituency is constituencies such as mine and many others. Ministers situated between the City and Canary Wharf, and although and Government Members have been quick to say that I and many people in my constituency are grateful for restoring the link between earnings and the basic state the contribution that responsible bankers make through pension is an important achievement, but unfortunately local community work and so on, the reality is that a some 10,000 pensioners in my constituency will suffer small but significant minority have brought the economy from the VAT rise alone. almost to a standstill. That is not acceptable, and bankers The VAT increase will reduce consumption. It will hit ought to be asked to make a bigger contribution than small businesses, including almost 4,500 in my constituency, ordinary members of the public. very hard. I do not accept the argument that it will be Over the past decade, constituencies such as mine good for the economy. About 70% of those businesses have struggled to get to a position in which people can in my constituency have fewer than four members of reach their aspirations, and unemployment was high staff working for them, and there is no doubt that a even during the boom period, particularly among graduates. reduction in consumption will affect them negatively. In the current climate the situation is ever more difficult. The Conservatives have been out of power for 13 years, I do not believe that punishing ordinary families and and the first thing they now do is raise VAT. What does people who are struggling to make ends meet is the way that say about their idea of progressivism? Those of us forward, or that it will help to create the big society that who were brought up in modest income households, members of the Conservative party claim to want to like many millions of people in this country, have not create. It does not highlight compassionate conservatism. forgotten the pain and suffering inflicted on families We heard a lot about that before the election, but I see through VAT hikes in the past, and I simply do not no sign of it. I hope that some of our friends on the accept that this is the right path now. I appeal to Liberal other side of the Chamber will reconsider the matter Democrat friends and to true compassionate Conservatives and think about how they can support families in this —I hope there are still a few left—who know in their difficult climate. 305 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 306

11.47 pm Let us consider the figures from my constituency. An Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Speaker, average public sector worker in the NHS in Wansbeck for allowing me to participate in this debate on the can expect a pension of some £6,000 per annum. A Second Reading of the Finance Bill. local authority worker can expect a pension of £4,000 per annum. That is frankly disgraceful and unacceptable. One thing that is certain is that all parties agree that It is also unashamed vindictiveness towards hard-working the deficit exists; we disagree only about how we would people. seek to reduce it, and how quickly or otherwise. Having now seen the detail of the Budget, and having like other The attack on the hard-working people of the public Members been drip-fed even more bad news on a daily and private sectors through an attempt to dilute safety basis, I feel that the Budget and the subsequent cuts and health legislation is also worrying. Some on the represent a most draconian, vicious and bitter attack on other side of the House claim that it is burdensome, yet the hard-working people of the UK. we have some of the best safety and health legislation in This has been described as the worst Budget in living the world. When Lord Youngof Graffham is being asked memory, and I must say that I agree with that sentiment. to reform safety and health laws and clearly states— This unprecedented attack by the coalition—the Tories and the Liberal Democrats—seems to be relished by Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is addressing many on their Benches. There appears to be something the House with great force and eloquence. A few moments of a perverse glee among many of them when they ago, I was waiting for a specific reference to the Bill and see this attack on the people of this country. Only he made it, for which the House was indebted to him. the wealthy and the well-off seem to have escaped the However, he is now talking about health and safety and far-reaching measures forced upon the nation by the wider reviews, and there is the difficulty that those slash-and-burn, patched-up coalition Government. matters do not appertain to the Bill, to which I know he If I may, I wish to introduce a more human side to will now revert with his customary force and eloquence. the debate on the Finance Bill and the Budget. Tonight we have heard a million and one different figures, and I Ian Lavery: Thank you very much for that, Mr Speaker am sure that most of them are accurate, but we have not —I understand. Whether or not health and safety and heard too much about the human side and the impact other such issues are part of the Bill or the Budget, they that the figures in the Bill will have on ordinary working are integral to the people whom we represent. people. In my constituency, 53% of the people work in To top it all off, those hard-working people are expected the public sector—the highest proportion in the country. to accept the reduction in their pensions and pay cuts We should not treat those people as social outcasts, yet without any voice. It is reported that the Government that appears to be happening. We have people in integral are looking to tighten what are already the worst anti-trade employment in the public sector—doctors, nurses, firemen, union laws in the western world, to prevent people from policemen, paramedics, prison officers, teachers, lecturers, having the democratic right to oppose the cuts in the classroom assistants, council workers, refuse collectors, Bill and the Budget. With pay cuts, pension cuts, benefit street cleaners, chief executives and administrators among cuts, employment rights eroded, and health and safety many more. Those are all valued occupations—essential laws diluted, their futures are in tatters. Who says that jobs for the economy, including that in my constituency. we are in this together? I invite the Chancellor and the Let us consider the police. Today, they have been on Prime Minister to visit my constituency, to explain to the front line, chasing an armed murderer only 10 miles the people of Wansbeck, including the 53% who may from where I live. We should be proud of those police lose their jobs, how on earth we are in this together? officers and not look to cut their numbers. Today, they What about the young and the future jobs fund and are protecting the public; tomorrow, they could face university places? What about the lack of job opportunities unemployment because of the cuts. Let us consider the and the abolition of the regional development agencies? firemen. They are the only ones running towards an With the cutting of benefits, what future do the young explosion, or towards a fire in which people are trapped, people have as a result of the Bill? while the general public run away. We should be proud Disabled people will be affected. What about the tax of them. They are on the front line today, but they face on disabled benefits? In my constituency, benefits for unemployment tomorrow. disablement and incapacity, including disability living We must stop treating people as mere statistics. They allowance, are extremely important, because Wansbeck are real people, with real lives. They have real families is a heavily industrialised area. The child trust funds are and real mortgages and, like many of us, they have aims to be abolished— and ambitions. Most of them chose a career path when they left school of serving their communities in the Mr Speaker: Order. I am genuinely trying to be public sector. Should they be punished for that through helpful to individual Members and to the House. It is the Bill and the Budget? They should not. They never open to the hon. Gentleman, and to other hon. Members expected to be unreasonably attacked through Government who speak, to say something about corporation tax, policy. capital gains tax, value added tax, insurance premium Why on earth the Government have attempted to tax, income tax etc. divide public and private sector workers, driving a wedge between them as if they are different sorts of people, in Ian Lavery: Thanks for that, Mr Speaker. Every different classes, and creating some second-class citizens Member who has sat in the Chamber for as long as I is beyond me, unless it is a case of divide and rule. They have today is probably as fed up as I am with regard to have not only imposed a two-year pay freeze, but attacked VAT and everything else. I accept everything you say, pensions. “Pay more while you work, get less when you Mr Speaker, but I must say that I am just trying to retire” seems to be the policy. change things, because we are talking about the cuts 307 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 308

[Ian Lavery] loud and clear. The hon. Lady just gave figures for four years down the line. Does that not give you an indication and the impact they will have on ordinary people. That of the amount of debt your party left this country in? is the only thing I am trying to get across. I understand quite clearly that I am probably stretching the limits of Helen Goodman rose— the debate— Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently say to the hon. Mr Speaker: Order. I am extremely grateful to the Gentleman that I do not have a party? Some people hon. Gentleman and I know he is doing his best to heed have known that for some time. [Laughter.] my advice—not altogether successfully—but from his last sentence, I suggest that he could delete the word “probably”. Helen Goodman: In order to achieve that difference in He was not following my advice, but I know that he will the debt to GDP ratio four years hence, we will see cuts now do so. There are other matters to address if he of 25% across most Departments, four times greater wishes to do so. than those that Geoffrey Howe tried to impose on the country in the early 1980s. Even so, the tax burden will Ian Lavery: Once again, Mr Speaker, thank you very also rise by £33 billion. We have to question the judgment much for your indulgence. I conclude not by mentioning of a Government who are taking that amount of money VAT or anything of that nature, but by suggesting once out of the British economy. again that it is not fair to say that we are in this together, because we certainly are not. Another issue is whether the Budget will promote growth. It is clear that in overall terms it will not do so. 11.58 pm That is clear from the revisions to the forecasts made by the OBR, which show that growth is down and Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): In considering unemployment is up. Given the huge cuts proposed in the Bill, we need to address three basic questions. First, the public sector—we heard about the first slice yesterday does it raise the right amount of money? Secondly, will to the Building Schools for the Future programme—not it promote growth? Thirdly, is it fair? Table 1.1 on page only will the number of public sector jobs be reduced, 15 of the Red Book is particularly useful. It lays the but the knock-on effect will be significant increases in policy that the new coalition Government inherited job losses in the private sector. The Government’s contention alongside their own tax and spending increases. One of that 2 million private sector jobs can be created is just the most interesting things that it shows is that over the not credible. That is far more than was achieved in the five-year period, the extra spending reductions required 1990s when interest rates were cut aggressively and the are £112 billion, and the extra tax increases required are pound depreciated by 25%. In those years, it took seven £33 billion. years for employment to grow by 1 million. Obviously, The policy that the Government inherited of halving interest rates cannot be cut aggressively in the current the budget deficit over four years was set out by my situation, and it is highly unlikely we will see a depreciation right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South of the pound against the euro, given that the European West (Mr Darling) in March, and the detail of how that economies—our largest market—are in the state they would be done was repeated today by my right hon. are in. Under the Labour Government, 2.5 million jobs Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill were created over 13 years, but that included extra jobs (Mr Byrne). in the public sector, a housing boom and huge increases One of the key issues that we have not considered so in financial services. The Government are now putting far tonight is whether we should be more concerned forward a prospectus that is simply not tenable. The about the size of the deficit or the size of the debt. Hon. argument that we have to attend to the level of the Members opposite continually stress the importance of deficit because private sector investment is being crowded the deficit, but the main reason that the deficit is out by the public sector is also not credible, given that significant is because it contributes to the debt. Page 23 the economy has 4% spare capacity. of the Red Book contains chart 1.3, “Consolidation in I turn to the measures in the Bill. On corporation tax, the cyclically-adjusted current budget”, and chart 1.4, the coalition Government are cutting the rates—this is “Public sector net debt”. They show the tremendous a long-standing pattern with the Tories—while cutting difference that will be made by the policies being pursued the allowances. What will that do for growth? How will by the coalition Government. The policies that my right that enable the economy to be rebalanced in the way the hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West laid Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills out would have produced a debt to GDP ratio in 2014 says is so important? Cutting allowances for investment of 75%—a high number and not where we would like to is bad for manufacturing. The small and medium-sized be in the long term. But for all the pain and agony that firms in my constituency, where there is a lot of engineering the coalition Government will impose on the country and small manufacturing, provide several examples the net impact will be to reduce the debt to GDP ratio demonstrating what the problems are. Over the past by 5% to 70%—just a 5% reduction. It is not even a month, I have visited two firms that make packaging, 5% reduction now, but in 2014. We are being asked to which means they supply the retail industry. Obviously, believe that the markets will take a very different view of if shops are not doing very well, those firms are not this small difference in four years’ time. That is the altar doing very well. Clearly, they need a lot of big machinery on which we are told we should smash our public to make the packaging, and if they are to continue to services. That is why Labour Members regard this as a have the new, up-to-date machinery to do that, they deeply ideological Budget. need investment allowances. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I Not so long ago, I visited a building and joinery firm have been sat here now for an hour and a half listening that also has a lot of expensive machinery that it needs to this passionate debate and one thing has come across to keep up to date, and it also needs these investment 309 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 310 allowances. Its contracts are largely dependent on the A2, entitled “Impact of all measures as a per cent of net public sector and on schools and police stations being income by income distribution”, in fact included not refurbished, so these cuts in the public sector will have just the measures taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer huge knock-on effects in the private sector. Let us take a in announcing his June Budget, but the measures taken final example: a chemicals firm making sealant for previously by my right hon. Friend the Member for aircraft. How will it fare with cuts to the defence Edinburgh South West, which were jumbled up with budget, which is one of the budgets not being protected? them. When those figures were stripped out and separated Once again we have a complete picture that is totally by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, we could see that the incoherent. What the Government offer in practice and distributional impacts were totally different. Whereas what they say they want to achieve are two completely my right hon. Friend’s Budget took less than 0.5% from different things. the poorest and almost 7% from the richest, the June Many hon. Members have commented on the unfairness Budget took 2.5% from the poorest and 0.5% from the of the low level of the bank levy and on the fact that the richest, so the claim of fairness is completely fraudulent. banks will gain more from the corporation tax cuts than they will lose from the increase in the bank levy. However, Ms Angela Eagle: Has my hon. Friend also noticed no one has asked why the bank levy is only being that, mysteriously, the tables in the Red Book to which introduced from 1 January 2011. I would like Treasury she has referred stop in the financial year 2012-13, Ministers to explain why there is a delay in the introduction which as it happens—I am sure that this is purely of the bank levy. Surely that gives the banks a lot of coincidental—is just before all the cuts in the public time to move their assets around and avoid this tax, at sector happen? which, as we all know, the financial services are particularly adept. Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The major cuts in benefits—in housing benefits, tax The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David credits and benefits affecting families—come in the two Gauke) indicated dissent. final years. The other thing that Members on the Government Helen Goodman: The Minister shakes his head. They Benches simply do not seem to understand is the impact clearly do not know the answer. of the changes on work incentives. The Government say that they want to promote a climate for growth. One The Conservative-Liberal coalition cannot agree on would think that if they were trying to promote a its environmental policy either, which is presumably climate for growth, they would improve work incentives. why, rather than taking action on environmental taxes, The Government are about to test to destruction the we now have yet another commission to look into the theory that simply cutting benefits will improve work climate change levy. Once again, therefore, a potentially incentives. That is illustrated in another table in the Red progressive measure is being put on the backburner. We Book—the Red Book is, I have to say, a rather useful do not know when it will happen. We do not know document—which shows the changes in the marginal when we will see progress on it. deduction rates. That table shows that almost 100,000 Many hon. Members have spoken about the unfairness people will see increases in their marginal deduction of VAT. The Government claim that they had no choice, rates as a result of the Budget—that is, a worsening of but of course they had a choice, and they have made it. their incentives. Their choice has been to change the national insurance The level of transparency in the document is totally regime and replace the increase in national insurance inadequate, and it has been extremely difficult to get with an increase in VAT. However, one of the things information out of the Government. However, in that the Government will not admit is that VAT is also a conclusion, I would like to ask: what is the balance of tax on jobs. VAT also drives a wedge between the cost risk that the British economy now faces? Is it spiralling on employers for the goods and service that employees inflation or is it deflation? The choice that the Government buy, and what they pay for them, so the notion that we have made is far more likely to push us towards deflation. can have an increase in VAT without seeing an impact on the number of jobs in the economy is yet another Before he sat down, the Chancellor or the Exchequer fantasy. said that the richest should pay the most and that the vulnerable would be protected in the Budget. The The Government have not explained what they are Government have failed every test. They have not been doing about the lower rate of VAT, on essentials, and fair, they have not promoted growth, they are raising far many Opposition Members would like some clarification too much money and this Budget will fail the nation. on that. The third and final issue that I would like to discuss 12.15 am is fairness in the income tax and benefits system. The Liberal Democrats say that raising the personal allowance Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Thank is their major attempt to be fair to poor people. The you for calling me, Mr Speaker. I am constantly amazed attempt is being made, but it has not produced the by this Chamber. I had had ambitions to speak in this upshot that the Liberal Democrats are looking for. debate today, but I now discover that it is tomorrow—[Hon. Rather, it has failed, because they have not taken account Members: “No, it’s still today.”] Of course it is not of the interaction with the tax credit reductions and the tomorrow; it is still today. That is another surprise. I cuts in welfare benefits. shall keep my remarks characteristically short. The distribution figures on page 66 of the Red Book We have been looking at two opposing risks in the purport to show what the position in the Budget is. debate today. The one that has been mentioned most by However, a day or so later, we all discovered that chart those on the Government Benches is that we would find 311 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 312

[Gavin Shuker] savings. Indeed, the independent Office for Budget Responsibility accepts that growth projections must be ourselves in a debt crisis as a result of a lack of confidence downgraded as a result of the coalition’s plans. in the cuts that we are making. I might have a different Most importantly for the people living in my constituency, view from those on the Government Benches. The other I have learned that if an entrepreneur wanted to start a risk is that we will cut too deeply and take out investment new business in the greater south-east, they would find that would otherwise go into growing our economy. To themselves some £50,000 worse off than if they had remove the bulk of the structural deficit, as the Government started their business elsewhere. Let us be clear about have chosen to do, reflects one of those positions very the impact. For my constituents in Luton South, that strongly. However, it does not reflect the fact that we means that moving just two stops up the train line or must walk a path between those two risks. We must find two junctions up the M1 would effectively give them a away. £50,000 golden hello for starting up. This Government I was pleased to stand for Parliament on a manifesto would deprive our region and our town of new jobs and commitment to reduce the deficit by half over four businesses, and fresh opportunities for growth. years of the next Parliament. That struck me as a good Rising unemployment often hits the poorest and the route to take between those two risks. To go further youngest hardest. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the than that, as the Government are choosing to do, is Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) spoke passionately ideological. We all have different ideologies—I understand about his experiences of growing up at a time when he that—but at a time when risk is such an important faced a double whammy of weak growth and spending aspect of the debate, not to recognise that fact is deeply cuts, along with increased taxation, and he pointed at worrying. Today, we have been talking about VAT, the profound effects on the local economy—not just in capital gains tax and insurance tax. There is one other the short term, but in the long term as well. All things tax that I would like to talk about tonight. being equal, who would not want to establish their business within a few miles of their own home? Who Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): My would not want to employ people from within their own hon. Friend makes the good point that those on the community? Government Benches are offering an alternative view These plans are a missile aimed at the heart of the on the Finance Bill. However, we have not heard very recovery in the east and in Luton South. As glamorous much from them for a considerable period of time. as “the greater south-east” sounds, I simply have to tell Does he think that they have run out of arguments to Government Members that the continued membership defend their position, or that we are actually winning of this region simply does not serve our constituents. the arguments and that they will vote with us in opposing Given a choice, I would like to continue to be a Member the Bill’s Second Reading tonight? representing the east of England.

Gavin Shuker: I thank my hon. Friend for that Dr Thérèse Coffey: Speaking as a fellow Member intervention. from the east of England representing Suffolk Coastal, I represent the east of England in my constituency of I am finding it difficult to understand the hon. Gentleman’s Luton South, and there is another tax that will have argument that we are disincentivising the growth of profound implications for my constituents. It is the employment, given that we have reduced the threshold change in national insurance. I am one of only two for employers’ national insurance. Surely that provides Opposition MPs representing the east of England and, an incentive, not a disincentive. I would appreciate as of Budget day, I represent part of what the Government some further clarification on why we are disincentivising now call the greater south-east. I am sure that hon. employment. Members can imagine how delighted I was to receive that accolade but, having never heard of the greater Gavin Shuker: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. south-east, and given that I live there, I decided that I do not want to do a geography lesson here, but the I should find out more about it. point I am making is that there is disparity within a region, as some areas are more affluent than others. I learned that, contrary to the coalition’s view that That applies locally as well as regionally, and some our area is so affluent that, even in the most serious parts of regions are much closer to other regions. For downturn of the past 60 years, it needs no Government example, in Luton South, we have a particular issue support, it houses some of the most deprived wards in about bordering an area that will not be affected by the our country. It should be recognised, as some on the £50,000 incentive I mentioned for starting a business. Government Benches have chosen to do tonight, that the inequality within regions can be as great as the Several hon. Members rose— inequality between regions. For example, the Dallow ward in my constituency stands in stark contrast to Mr Speaker: Order. Before he continues, let me say to Elstree, one of the most affluent wards in the country, the hon. Gentleman that the issue of regional similarities— through which I pass every day on my commute to or, indeed, for that matter, disparities—is a matter of Parliament. Both are in the greater south-east. interest, but it is not relevant to the matters in the Bill. I have also learned that, of all the regions in this The hon. Gentleman is rightly passionate about his own country, the greater south-east is the most likely to have area, but I know that he will want to relate his remarks vital infrastructure projects shelved. Given the VAT rise to the Bill. He has a considerable choice between and the other measures in the Bill, this will have a really corporation tax, capital gains tax, value added tax, profound effect on the inhabitants of the region. Investment insurance premium tax, pensions, income tax and no in infrastructure is a far better way of kick-starting fewer than five schedules, the second of which has five economies than cheap, short fixes and making cost parts. I think that that will keep him happy. 313 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 314

Gavin Shuker: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In conclusion— when they cast 600,000 more people into the welfare net. Where is the sense in that? Oh yes, this is a Finance Mr Kevan Jones: Will my hon. Friend give way? Bill of choice for the Tories, and in life it is “our choices that tell us who we really are.” Gavin Shuker: Of course. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Is it not Mr Jones: One of the economic drivers in Luton is ironic that one of the main beneficiaries of this particular the success story of Luton airport. Does my hon. Budget will be our banks, which are among the biggest Friend agree with me that the Budget’s proposals to payers of corporation tax in the country? The Government increase insurance premium tax from 17.5% to 20% is have chosen not to tax bankers’ bonuses this year, going to have a terrible effect on that success story, as despite clear public outrage at the level of bonuses that Luton airport employs huge numbers of people in his are still being paid. constituency? Barry Gardiner: Not only has my hon. Friend made a Gavin Shuker: I thank my hon. Friend for his perfectly apposite point, but she has made it better than characteristically timely intervention, rightly making I could ever possibly do. I can only agree with her. the case that within these green pages tonight are a series of measures that will have a profound effect on Jim Fitzpatrick: If my hon. Friend is going to be so each individual constituency. In Luton South, I could complimentary to those who intervene, how can I resist? pick out the particular effect on the airport and I could Will he explain his perception that this is a Budget of talk more about our position within the UK. In each choices? Is he going to refer to the analysis by the community and in each constituency, we will have to go Institute for Fiscal Studies, according to which it is a back to our constituents and explain why we voted Budget of choices and the Government made the wrong either for or against the measures in the Bill. I for one choices, or is this entirely his own analysis? will vote against the Bill, and I would like to encourage Government Members from the east of England to do Barry Gardiner: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. so as well. If they do, they can go back to their constituents The Institute for Fiscal Studies has made some damning with their heads held high and say that they stood up comments about the regressive nature of this Finance for their constituents and their region on a night like Bill. tonight. Should it be passed in the House of Commons, the 12.24 am Bill will be unavoidable in its own way. Consider the carer, middle-aged herself but looking after her ageing, Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Albus Dumbledore frail parents. She will not be able to avoid seeing her in “Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets” said: carer’s allowance cut by £90 a year over the next five “You see, Harry, it is not our abilities in life, but our choices years. Consider the family of five living in Brent, already that tell us who we really are.” struggling to find the difference between what the landlord When my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh insists is a fair market rent and their housing benefit South West (Mr Darling) rose in this Chamber as payments each month. They will not be able to avoid Chancellor at 12.32 pm on Wednesday 24 March, he eviction as the Finance Bill cuts housing benefit. Consider could look back on a year in which global recession had the severely disabled sufferer from Crohn’s disease. She not turned into depression, in which unemployment, will not be able to avoid losing £300 a year as the Bill although too high, was less than had been predicated a cuts support year on year. year earlier when the recession began, and in which the Consider the young couple starting their life together, United Kingdom was now infinitesimally but incrementally moving into and trying to furnish their flat. They will moving from recession to GDP growth. He faced tough face the costs of conveyancing solicitors, new fridge, choices: how to bring borrowing down without strangling new washing machine, new carpets, new sofa, new telly. growth, and how to reduce the deficit without crippling This is certainly the unavoidable Finance Bill for them, front-line public services and punishing the most vulnerable with an extra 2.5% on every item. It is the unavoidable people in our country. Those choices were not easy, but Finance Bill for the poor, for the disabled, for those on they were necessary. housing benefit, and for carers. A clear choice has been When the current Chancellor, the right hon. Member made by the Conservatives to cut an extra £40 billion on for Tatton (Mr Osborne), rose in this Chamber at top of the £78 billion announced already. 12.33 pm on Tuesday 22 June, he did so against the background of a further quarter of small but positive Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I would like to growth and a report from the Office for Budget ask the hon. Gentleman whether he realises why all Responsibility that predicated £30 billion less public these very sad cases are unavoidable. It is because we sector borrowing. Despite that improved situation, however, have a national debt of £1 trillion. I was looking at what he said that he did not face any choice. He said: that means. If every pound were a second, that would “This is the unavoidable Budget.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; be 31,546 years and we would all be sitting here for a Vol. 512, c. 166.] very long time. No; this is the Budget of Tory masochistic fantasy. Right-wingers are delighted with what they see, in this Barry Gardiner rose— Finance Bill, as the arms of the state being rolled back. They are delighted by the thought of 600,000 jobs being Mr Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman responds cut from the public sector. They are salivating at the to that intervention and resumes his speech, I remind thought of spending less on welfare at the very time him that he is perfectly entitled to talk about vulnerability 315 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 316

[Mr Speaker] taken the unavoidable and necessary action, whereas we would have taken none at all. So I refer them to the Red if he so wishes, but he must relate it to the matters Book in March, where my right hon. Friend the shadow within the Bill and he has an extensive choice from Chancellor set out the swiftest and most straightforward which to select. deficit reduction plan that then existed in the G7. The plan proposed: £3.5 billion of savings by freezing Barry Gardiner: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am tempted public sector pay—but that of the better paid, rather to take up the length of time that the hon. Lady than of the poorest public sector workers; £1 billion of mentioned, but I fear that the House needs to come to a savings from public sector pensions; £18 billion of savings close. A clear choice has been made by the Conservatives to capital spending; £11 billion of savings from Whitehall to cut an extra £40 billion on top of the £78 billion reform; £19 billion in new tax rises; £14 billion of announced in March. They have made a clear choice to savings from reduced benefit payments as unemployment cut £11 billion out of tax credits and benefits. A clear came down; and £5 billion of savings from programme choice has been made by the Liberal Democrats not just cuts. to drop the VAT bombshell that they warned of, but to act as navigators and pathfinders for the Conservatives Mr Kevan Jones: The right hon. Member for Uxbridge to deliver it perfectly targeted. That regressive tax does and South Ruislip (Mr Randall) is chuntering from a the most damage to the poorest. It is regressive, not sedentary position and trying to intervene on my hon. progressive. Friend. Does my hon. Friend agree that the people who “We will not have to raise VAT to deliver our promises”, are going to be affected by the VAT increase will be said the Deputy Prime Minister before the election. those in the retail trade, in which I understand the right Indeed not—the Liberal Democrats will have to raise hon. Gentleman has an interest? VAT to deliver the Tories’ promises. What an apology for a fig leaf. Barry Gardiner: My hon. Friend is entirely correct. I believe that the point may have been made earlier. John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): [Interruption.] With regard to my hon. Friend’s list of all the people who will not be able to avoid paying the increase in VAT, is Mr Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman continues, he aware that many community halls in my constituency may I gently say to the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and across the country will also be forced to pay it as and South Ruislip (Mr Randall) that we do not need they are not able to claim exemption from VAT owing sedentary interventions from him and we do not want to the arrangements that they face? to get into a general debate about the merits or otherwise of Randalls as a department store, interesting though Barry Gardiner: My hon. Friend is entirely right. that may be? That is a real problem for clubs and small businesses that are not able to reclaim VAT back. It is yet another Barry Gardiner: Mr Speaker, I will forgo that offer, tax on business. tempting though it may be. However, I will try to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham Ms Angela Eagle: Does my hon. Friend share my (Mr Jones), who is entirely correct to say that retailers astonishment that Members on the Government Front will also suffer from this measure. Large retail operations, Bench seem to be ignorant of the fact that VAT has to such as supermarkets, will particularly suffer because be paid by charities? they have huge costs to meet in changing their tills over to cope with the VAT changes. Barry Gardiner: Not in the slightest. Why should I be We made our choices too. They were hard choices, surprised? It is what I would expect of Government but they were not regressive choices, and they protected Front Benchers. the poorest and the vulnerable. We chose to raise duty The Child Poverty Action Group has passed its judgment on cider to the same level as that on other alcohol. The on this “unavoidable” Finance Bill: Liberal Democrats opposed that choice in March—in fact, it was the only choice that they opposed then. “This is a disappointing budget for child poverty and increases the risk of the government failing to meet its 2020 goal of ending Their choice is to reverse that duty in this Finance Bill, child poverty.” to put 8% less duty on cider and to increase VAT by 2.5%; scrumpy today, child poverty tomorrow is the It says: Liberal Democrats’ great rallying cry for the 21st century. “The increase in VAT is a regressive measure which will impact This is their tax priority for the new politics of collaboration. hardest on poor families.” Albus Dumbledore was right: it is not our abilities in Robert Caro, the great biographer, once wrote: life but our choices that tell us who we really are. My “It is said that power corrupts: what is more true is that power choice is to oppose this pernicious Bill. reveals.” With the Liberal Democrats, power has certainly revealed. 12.37 am No longer can anyone be excused for thinking that the Lib Dems are progressive and principled. They are Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): It is regressive, ruthless and prepared to sell out any policy “A coalition of the heartless, the clueless and the confused”. for a whiff of office. Those are not my words—as a Member new to the In the course of debate over the past week, Government House I would not be so bold—but those of the Nobel Members have repeatedly asked Labour Members what laureate economist, Paul Krugman, when describing we would do. They have tried to suggest that they have another right-wing cabal, in the US, and its attempt to 317 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 318 slash welfare spending instead of increasing growth. The public sector is bad, of course—non-jobs, as I His description might serve well to describe and characterise heard one Local Government Minister describe them the callous collaborators on the Government Benches, recently. Well, many people in my constituency and and the war on welfare that they are launching tonight elsewhere across the country rely on such jobs to feed with the Finance Bill. their families. Private sector is, of course, good, and the The coalition is heartless in its disregard for how VAT thing that we all want to encourage. The construction and the unprecedented spending cuts that we anticipate industry is a wonderful example of the symbiosis between will hit the poorest in our society, it is clueless in the the two parts of our economy. If you cut one the other wrong-headed belief that we have heard repeated so often will bleed, and we will see £50 billion cut from the tonight that these savage public sector cuts will somehow construction industry. The construction industry accounts liberate private sector surpluses, entrepreneurialism and for 10% of GDP, and that £50 billion will have a big growth in the economy, and it is confused. There is impact right across the economy. So I think that private confusion at least on the part of the Liberal Democrats and public are linked. as to how they managed to enter the political fray at The theory that we are testing now is the one that we last, only to find themselves, as an old soldier in my have allegedly seen work in Canada and Sweden, whereby constituency described it last week, on the side of the the Government make cuts and the economy flourishes. axis powers. [Interruption.] I thought that it was pretty In those countries we saw a long-term reduction in funny. spending on public sector vital services. I do not, however, want to dwell on the heartlessness The other key lesson from those other examples of of the measures included in the Finance Bill, because so deficit reductions is that the conditions need to be right. many people have done so with such eloquence this Investor and consumer confidence have to be growing, evening. I think that the public will be able to judge that and there has to be evidence of underemployed private heartlessness for themselves when they see the raising of sector capital. Exporters must be ready to grow and foreign VAT on essential goods for the poor, and Government markets must be ready to buy. Get it wrong and cut too Members cheering, as they did during the Budget speech, deep when the conditions are unfavourable, and we measures such as the decision to scrap the health in have on our hands not a success story, but depression pregnancy grant designed to tackle malnourishment in and bankruptcy. The historical examples of such failed pregnant mothers in the poorer sectors of our society. experiments form a long and ignoble list, and Government Opposition Members consider such provisions the hallmark Members would do well to read the history books and of a civilised society, but Government Members clearly learn from them. think they are a burden on economic efficiency. I do not really want to talk about the heartlessness. I Stephen Pound: On that exact point about the Canadian would rather talk about the cluelessness. [HON.MEMBERS: experiment, does my hon. Friend agree that the conditions “ You already have.] Yes I have, and I am going to do it that prevailed in Canada—a massively economically again in a minute. We have heard lots of cluelessness expanding neighbour, in the same free trade association, this evening, mostly inspired by the primer on Milton to the south—are not remotely met here. Any comparison Friedman that Government Members have all obviously between this country and Canada, or even the Swedish read recently, and we have heard reiterated by the hon. model, are specious and possibly even mendacious. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) and various others. The idea is that if we cut the public sector, which allegedly squeezes out private sector entrepreneurialism Mr Speaker: Order. I am trying to help the hon. and growth, we somehow stimulate the private sector, Member for Pontypridd and other hon. Members. I feel and that leads to a flourishing of entrepreneurialism. sure that is only a matter of seconds before he says something about corporation tax, capital gains tax, value added tax, insurance premium tax, pensions, income Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Does my hon. tax or any of the five schedules to the Bill. Friend agree that implicit within the Budget, the decapitation of Building Schools for the Future has resulted in the private sector not being able to mop up a Hon. Members: He has nothing to say. pool of labour? That private sector has in fact been shot in the back of the head, driven out into the country and Owen Smith: I have plenty to say. [Interruption.] dumped in a lay-by. Mr Speaker: Order. I have set the hon. Gentleman a Mr Speaker: Order. I would not want the hon. Member bit of a test, and I want to hear him. for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), who has made an auspicious start, to stray from the path of virtue. May I just say to him that it is a good rule of thumb to listen with great Owen Smith: I welcome your guidance, Mr Speaker. interest and enthusiasm to the hon. Member for Ealing Many Labour Members have tried to say this key thing North (Stephen Pound), but to recognise that sometimes today, but I will try to encapsulate it. There are various his interventions have absolutely nothing to do with the items and taxation measures listed in the Bill. matter under discussion? Mr Kevan Jones: Pontypridd is not dissimilar to Owen Smith: In this instance, I beg to differ. [HON. North Durham, both being ex-mining communities MEMBERS: “Oh!”] My hon. Friend’s intervention absolutely with rural areas and, very importantly, a Labour MP. speaks to the case, because the philosophical underpinnings Does my hon. Friend agree that the changes to VAT in of what we hear from Government Members is that the Bill will have a disproportionate effect on many of somehow we have a great dichotomy in our economy. his constituents who are on low incomes or benefits, 319 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 320

[Mr Kevan Jones] too many private conversations are taking place in the Chamber, which is very discourteous to the Member and that that is not fair, when some of the wealthier addressing the House. If people do not want to listen to parts of the country, such as Uxbridge, have been let off the speeches—I address this to all Members—they are and will not be affected? under absolutely no obligation whatever to stay in the Chamber, and we will manage without them. But if Owen Smith: I thank my hon. Friend for that they are going to stay in the Chamber, they will show intervention. He is entirely correct that my Pontypridd some basic courtesy and respect. constituency will be badly affected—[Interruption.] Sorry, I cannot make out the mumblings coming from the Owen Smith: Thank you, Mr Speaker. other side of the House. Equally, however, if the growth projections from the OBR and the Treasury leak were Stephen Pound: On the exact point that my hon. likely to offset the impact of those VAT increases, and if Friend was so tellingly making, he will be aware that in people were more likely to be in work in my constituency clause 4 we see an increase in insurance premium tax as a result of the measures in the Bill and the Budget from 5% to 6%. Does he agree, particularly as an MP more generally, I would be less concerned about the from a constituency that has given so much to energise VAT rises. the nation and keep us warm over the years, that that Some specific comments have been made about the could have an appalling effect on pensioners who have VAT rises and other measures in the Bill. Only this standard gas central heating contracts? Is there not, in week, 125 chief finance officers of some of Britain’s clause 4, an extremely unpleasant sting in the tail of biggest companies reported that their confidence in the Bill? growth was at a 12-month low, with two thirds of them Owen Smith: I cannot but agree wholeheartedly. I am warning explicitly that the measures in the Bill would sure that that is an apposite intervention. Throughout damage their companies and risk a double dip recession— the Bill and the wider Budget, there are measures about hardly creating the conditions for them to employ more which all the most vulnerable people in our society people. In manufacturing, Deloitte’s global manufacturing should be concerned. My constituents are deeply worried competitiveness index also anticipates decline, and in about the measures affecting not just pensions, but, the service sector, the purchasing managers index—an equally, housing benefit, the most pernicious effects of established barometer of health in that sector, as the right which we will not see until much later in this Parliament, hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall) and VAT. The VAT increase will not be introduced until will know—reported last month the largest drop in next year, but when it is, it will bite on ordinary working business confidence in the last 14 years of its history. people throughout my constituency and throughout the Where are we going to grow, and how are we going to country. export? Government Members have cited other parts of the world where we should look for our examples. The Jim Fitzpatrick: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend US has sometimes been mentioned, and it was an for giving way. He is being most generous to Opposition engine of growth in the last century, but the statistics colleagues—and perhaps some Government Members there offer us no comfort, with non-farm payroll reporting will want to engage in debate, too. Does he agree that last week just 83,000 private sector jobs created. That is the changes to housing benefit in constituencies such as important because the Government expect us to believe mine—Poplar and Limehouse—will have a very damaging that through the measures in the Finance Bill, they will effect and could ultimately lead to poorer people being create 2.5 million jobs in the five-year period following driven out of the centres of our great cities and banished the Budget. I have been researching that important and to the suburbs? Surely that will not result in a cohesive bold claim, and I received an answer from the House of society involving all parts of our community. Commons Library suggesting that only once in any Owen Smith: Again, I wholeheartedly agree. I am not five-year period since 1970 has the British economy sure what is worse, that measure or the suggestion—the created more than 2.5 million private sector jobs, the rehash that we heard only last week—that people should period in question being 1980-85. That was a statistical get on their bikes, get out of places such as Pontypridd anomaly, however—the result of wholesale privatisation. and go to other parts of Britain where, allegedly, work Perhaps that points us to a secret or hidden agenda in will be created through the magical 2.5 million jobs that the Government’s plans—another major round of we are going to see each year. privatisations. I am about to finish, and I shall do so on a highly My suspicions about that may be shared by someone topical note, by returning to my quotation from Sir Alan who was, until recently, one of the Government’s allies— Budd’s interview for a documentary programme some Sir Alan Budd, formerly of the Office for Budget 10 years ago. He was asked whether he was worried that Responsibility. I have no idea whether his hasty exit economists such as himself were being used to cover the from the OBR is prompted by unhappiness about the political motives of the previous Tory Administration, new office perhaps having its integrity compromised, and in response he said: but I point Members to an interview that he gave a couple of years ago, which is of relevance to the Bill. He “The nightmare I sometimes have, about this whole was asked whether he felt any discomfort when he was experience, runs as follows. I was involved in making a advising the Thatcher Government that perhaps some number of proposals which were partly at least adopted of the decisions he was making as an economist— by the government”— [Interruption.] the Thatcher Government— “and put in play by the government. Now my worry is…that there Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to have to interrupt may have been people making the actual policy decisions…who the hon. Gentleman. I know that the hour is relatively never believed for a moment that this was the correct way to bring late—not exceptionally late, but relatively so—but far down inflation. 321 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 322

They did, however, see that it would be a very, very good way policies—those failed policies—that led to interest rates to raise unemployment, and raising unemployment was an extremely that averaged 10% during the Tories’ 18 years in power desirable way of reducing the strength of the working classes—if and that hit 15% on one occasion. I say to Government you like, that what was engineered there in Marxist terms was a Members that they are in denial. Their failed policies, crisis of capitalism which re-created a reserve army of labour and has allowed the capitalists to make profits ever since.” which they want to pursue again, resulted in record numbers of repossessions and millions of people ending I wonder whether that might be why Sir Alan Budd has up in negative equity. That, in turn, had a massive decided to leave the service of the current vintage of impact on the construction industry and the ancillary Tories. trades that rely on a buoyant housing market. 12.38 am We all remember how the failed policies now being pursued again by Government Members resulted in Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): There has unemployment that exceeded 3 million. Government been a degree of hysteria from Members on the Con-Dem Members are in denial about the fact that manufacturing Benches this evening. It might be the lateness of the was decimated by the policies that they are pursuing. hour, or there might be another reason, but I have been They smashed the coal industry, nearly wiped out the disturbed by the amount of sneering and laughing by steel industry, almost destroyed the British car industry Government Members at the serious points that Opposition and torpedoed British shipbuilding. They are in denial Members, who are concerned about the Bill’s implications because they want to destroy the very instruments that for their constituents throughout the length and breadth will help the recovery, by undermining the regional of this great nation, have made. A little humility from development agencies and by taking away the loan to Government Members and, particularly, from the Liberal Sheffield Forgemasters, which would have had such a Democrats would not go amiss. big impact in assisting the resurgence of the nuclear The Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Chief Secretary industry in this country. to the Treasury and all Government Members would The Con-Dem coalition is in denial because of its benefit from some counselling from Gamblers Anonymous, unrealistic expectation of growth in respect of the exports because they are gambling massively with the British that it expects to achieve while the worldwide economy economy. Although history teaches us that their gamble is in a fragile state. is doomed to fail, they are ploughing on regardless—just like a wretched compulsive gambler betting on a course of action with incredibly long odds, in the vain hope Stephen Pound: My hon. Friend’s constituency is that it will turn out all right in the end. rightly known and admired far and wide for the quality of its Rolls-Royce engines. Has he done any research Crossing fingers and hoping for the best is not a into the possible effect on demand for aero engines of credible economic prospectus. The Chancellor is pursuing an increase in insurance premium tax from 17.5 to 20%? the same old stale, worn out and inept Tory economic Does he share my fear that that will dampen demand policies that have failed the country before and are set for travel and, ultimately, for the wondrous engines to fail it again. However, the Con-Dem coalition is not produced in his constituency? betting on a horse, but playing with the lives and livelihoods of the British people. Just like its Tory predecessors in the 1930s, the 1980s and the 1990s, this Chris Williamson: I am very proud to have Rolls-Royce Con-Dem coalition is, yet again, making the wrong in the constituency adjacent to mine, Derby South. choice. It is risking the fragile recovery that the Labour Indeed, many of my constituents work at Rolls-Royce, a Administration worked so hard to secure. [Laughter.] company renowned for its excellence. My hon. Friend is Yes, they like laughing—that is typical of the Con-Dem right: the insurance tax rise is bound to have an impact. Benches. The cancellation of the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters will also have a big impact, because Rolls-Royce is The fact is that the Government’s corporation tax seeking to diversify into the nuclear industry—to expand proposals provide inadequate support for businesses. its operations in that regard—and was hoping to purchase The Chancellor’s very own Office for Budget Responsibility equipment from Sheffield Forgemasters, but it will now predicts that his Budget will result in lower growth not be forced to look abroad. That is a direct result of the just this year, but next year as well. How will that help policies of Con-Dem Members, who should hang their business? Are Government Members laughing at that? heads in shame. If growth declines, that will not help business at all. On top of that, the OBR says that unemployment will be caused. The OBR’s predictions remind me of two notorious John Woodcock: Does my hon. Friend agree that this Tory maxims coined by a previous Chancellor of the is not just about the double whammy facing Rolls-Royce? Exchequer and a former Prime Minister. One said that I agree with him wholeheartedly about the potentially catastrophic effect on the civil nuclear supply chain of “unemployment…is a price worth paying” cancelling the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters, but there and the other, John Major, said: is also the restriction on capital allowances, which will “If it isn’t hurting, it isn’t working.” hit Rolls-Royce as it will hit BAE Systems in my However, as the shadow Chief Secretary pointed out constituency and many other manufacturers across the earlier, the situation is even worse than is indicated by north of England and the whole country who will be the OBR’s predictions. The number of people who will affected through the potential loss of jobs and loss of lose their jobs will be far higher than the figures that ability to export. have surfaced so far. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury says that Opposition Chris Williamson: My hon. Friend is right. Conservative Members are in denial. I put it to him and to other Members are reverting to type. We saw what they did—I Government Members that they are in denial. It is their have outlined some of the implications—when they 323 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 324

[Chris Williamson] Mr Speaker: Order. Members are not helping the hon. Lady.May I say to her that it is entirely understandable were last in power. The policies that they are pursuing that she looks behind her, but that she must face the now will have exactly the effect that he describes in House? undermining manufacturing, because they are the enemy of manufacturing industry in this country. Lilian Greenwood: Does my hon. Friend share my There is an alternative. Historical precedent proves concern about the impact that the VAT increase will that investing in the economy at a time of economic have on the retail sector? I understand from a recent fragility is absolutely the right course of action. Government report that 77% of retailers felt that it would have a Members should look at their history books. We had a negative, quite negative or very negative impact on their lecture from the hon. Member for North East Somerset sales, potentially leading to a 1.6% reduction in retail (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who referred to the 1930s. I refer staff, 47,000 employees losing their jobs and more than him and other Government Members to Roosevelt’s 9,000 stores closing— new deal. Roosevelt demonstrated that by using the power and instruments of the state to invest in the Mr Speaker: Order. economy, we can get the economy moving again and put people back to work. Do not forget that when Chris Williamson: I agree with my hon. Friend. We Roosevelt came to power, 25% of the American people have seen a retail-led regeneration of the city centre in were out of work, and his new deal put them back into Derby, and the increase in VAT will certainly have a work. By contrast, in this country we were pursuing a negative impact. Already retailers are struggling in the deflationary policy that resulted in millions of people difficult economic circumstances with which they are losing their jobs and remaining unemployed for many confronted, and clearly an increase in VAT is bound to years. have a negative impact. Indeed, President Obama agrees. He wrote to all the What we wanted to achieve, and what we believe is G20 leaders— the right way forward, is the creation of an economic virtuous cycle through investment in our economy. That Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently say to the hon. would lead to more jobs, which would increase tax and Gentleman that we cannot have a general discourse on national insurance income, which in turn would lead to the merits of the policies of respective American presidents, the opportunity for more investment, and so on. The however strongly he and others feel about those matters? Government are pursuing a course of action that will I am sure that it is only a matter of seconds before he lead to an economic vicious circle. The cuts in investment returns to the substance of the Bill. will result in more unemployment and a reduction in the tax take, resulting in more cuts and more unemployment, Chris Williamson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I merely and so on. The VAT increase will clearly hit the poorest wanted to make a brief reference to President Obama’s people in our community. The Treasury figures say that, letter. I think that Government Members are familiar as do the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the National with it. I referred to it in a previous speech, and I will Institute of Economic and Social Research. therefore move on. What I find astounding is the breathtaking hypocrisy From the historical precedents to which I have referred, of the Liberal Democrats. On 7 April the Deputy Prime and indeed the precedent of the Attlee Government in Minister said: 1945, it is clear that by investing in our economy and “Our plans do not require a rise in VAT. The Tory plans do. not taking the course of action that the Government Their tax promises on marriage and jobs may sound appealing. are taking in relation to VAT, corporation tax and the But they come with a secret VAT bombshell close behind.” insurance premium tax, we can secure greater opportunity It is little wonder that support for the Liberal Democrats for recovery. If we can put people back to work by in the latest YouGov opinion poll has slumped to 15%. investing in our economy, that will ensure that the tax Furthermore, another YouGov poll last month showed take is increased. that 48% of Liberal Democrat voters were going to abandon the party as a direct result of its supporting Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that, in the Tories on the issue. Even the Prime Minister said his constituency, the VAT increases in the Finance Bill last year that VAT was regressive and hit the poorest will have a disproportionate effect on the poorest hardest. He went on: individuals? Will that not hamper not only the recovery “It does, I absolutely promise you.” but the personal circumstances of those individuals? The Chancellor of the Exchequer told The Times on 10 April that the Tories had no plans to increase VAT Chris Williamson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. this year. Certainly the increases will impoverish countless people The Chancellor keeps telling us that we are all in it living on modest incomes in my constituency. That is together, but there is a world of difference between the very clear. The point that I was trying to make, though, impact on privileged former Bullingdon club members, was that growth is the key to recovery, and by investing such as the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, and the in our economy we can secure that growth. families on modest incomes in my constituency who will have their tax credits cut—[Interruption.] Lilian Greenwood: Has the growth of the retail sector in Derby made a significant contribution to the city? Mr Speaker: Order. A rather unseemly exchange is I know that the Westfield centre there seems to have going on between the hon. Member for Nottingham attracted many people. Does my hon. Friend share my East (Chris Leslie) and the Minister of State, Foreign concern that the increase in VAT will have—[Interruption.] and Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Taunton 325 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 326

Deane (Mr Browne). I would not want to find that, as a sounds a lot more exciting than its current name, which result of excessive noise, I miss out on what I am sure is if I may say, is rather boring. He then spoke of the coming soon, namely the peroration of the hon. Member history of drainage in the fens and many of the issues for Derby North (Chris Williamson). that he is confronting as a newly elected Member. I wish him a long and happy membership of the House. He Chris Williamson: There is an even bigger difference certainly made a good impression with his maiden speech. between those privileged former Bullingdon club members My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and the people whom they will throw on the dole—the also made an extremely accomplished maiden speech tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, and this evening, paying suitable tribute to both his predecessors, possibly millions of people who will be thrown out of Elliot Morley and Ian Cawsey. He displayed a passion work as a direct consequence of their policies. for the constituency that it is now his privilege to The Chief Secretary concluded his remarks today by represent. He lives there and clearly loves it, and I am saying that the Budget was tough but fair. sure that we will hear many more such contributions from him. David Morris: A debate that goes on till 12 minutes The hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer)—a past one is an oddity so early in the Parliament. Call me chip off the old block—made a characteristically good cynical, but will the hon. Gentleman concede that the maiden speech, as did the hon. Member for Weaver Vale debate has just cost the taxpayers more than £200,000 (Graham Evans). The latter paid a tribute to his predecessor to keep the House open and Members of Parliament in that Labour Members appreciated. I congratulate all here, who can claim a free hotel after 1 o’clock under hon. Members who made their maiden speeches tonight. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority rules? I am not sure how many more maiden speeches there Shame! are to get through, but I have always enjoyed listening to Members’ first contributions to the House. After Chris Williamson: I agree—[Interruption.] many years of listening to such speeches, I have not lost my enthusiasm for them. Mr Speaker: Order. The fact that there is a generally The debate was initially joined enthusiastically and convivial spirit is good, but the House must come to with a great deal of energy, but that energy petered out order because, as I said, we must shortly hear the hon. on the Government side of the House halfway through Gentleman’s peroration. the evening. Instead of the usual to and fro of debate, there was no sign of anyone on the Government side Chris Williamson: I agree with the hon. Gentleman willing to stand up to defend the Finance Bill. Government that he is cynical. Members ran out of steam and stopped participating. How is it fair to increase VAT when the Chief Secretary As the Bill goes to Committee and Report in the next said that he would not do that? How is it fair to hit the couple of weeks—unusually, that will take place completely poorest the hardest? How is it fair to cut tax credits on the Floor of the House—I hope they will show a from families on modest incomes or to scrap child trust little bit more stamina than they managed to show funds, which give young people a nest egg? How is it fair today, when the debate was somewhat one-sided. to slash free school meals? How is it fair to short-change The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), pensioners through the failure to operate tax allowances? whom I no longer see in his place, is one of life’s How is it fair to blame public sector workers for the optimists. He told us that we are all far too pessimistic deficit and the national debt, when international bankers about the state of the economy. To listen to him, one are at fault? Let us remember that Conservative Members would not have thought that his right hon. and hon. resisted any additional regulation of those bankers, Friends on the Treasury Bench had spent the past few many of whom have more in common with Government weeks driving down confidence in the economy with the Members than they have with Opposition Members. scaremongering tactics they have been using to justify How is it fair to chop benefits, including the swingeing the measures in the Budget. cuts to which my hon. Friends referred, for some of the We then heard from the hon. Member for Dundee poorest and most vulnerable people in the country? The East (Stewart Hosie) on behalf of the Scottish Nationalists, shameful Finance Bill is the antithesis of fairness. That who is a long-standing and experienced contributor to is why Labour Members will vote against Second Reading. Finance Bill debates. I have served on many Finance Bill Committees with him and, as always, he brought his 1.14 am astute experience and forcefully expressed opinions to Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): We have had an the debate. He was especially exercised about the increase interesting debate. We just heard from the hon. Member in VAT in the Bill which, he said—and I have to say I for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) the most agree with him—contradicts the fairness theme that is amazing reason why debate in the House should be purported to run through the Budget. He described it as curtailed that I think I have ever heard used in a unforgivable and economically foolish. democracy. I hope we are not going to hear more We also heard from the hon. Member for North East arguments that debate in the House should be curtailed Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) who gave us something of because of the cost, as that seems rather odd. a history lesson and, like so many of his colleagues, I begin my response to a long and illuminating debate foolishly raised the spectre of Greece. They really will by adding my congratulations to those who made their have to stop doing that if they are to be reasonable and maiden speeches. The hon. Member for North East responsible. Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) gave an extremely One of the more interesting speeches on the other entertaining speech about the history of his constituency. side of the House came from the hon. Member for He told us that it was better known as the fens, which St Ives (Andrew George), whose words we listened to 327 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 328

[Ms Angela Eagle] out the perverse glee he perceived among Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members over the pain that will be with extreme care given his actions so far in tabling inflicted through the Budget and this Bill. His speech amendments to the Bill. Clearly he is struggling with demonstrated the human face of public sector workers, the VAT increase. It is worrying him. He said that he did many of whom have found their reputations decried in not think the Red Book was accurate in its assessment the newspapers, and the jobs and the contribution that of VAT as progressive and he raised the tantalising—for public sector workers make to our society belittled. me, at any rate—possibility that he might consider My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland amending the Budget in Committee or Report on the (Helen Goodman) observed that the Budget judgments Floor of the House. We will certainly wait to see whether are very optimistic on jobs and, in particular, growth he does so, and we will look carefully at the issues that prospects, and she highlighted the impact on work he wishes to raise. incentives of some of the policies and Budget changes We had a series of speeches from my side of the in the Red Book. House, beginning with an extremely eloquent contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North Kelvin Hopkins: My hon. Friend talks about the (Helen Jones), who talked about how regressive the judgments and forecasts. I remember, some 20 years VAT increase will be. She also said that the banks were ago, the Tories’ favourite forecasting organisation was being treated softly while industry was being treated the London Business School, which The Sunday Times relatively badly by the proposals in the Finance Bill. gave 0 out of 10 for its forecasts because they were We also heard from my hon. Friend the Member for always completely wrong. Does she think they are wrong North Durham (Mr Jones) and my right hon. Friend on this occasion as well? the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher), both of whom had pertinent critiques of the Budget Ms Eagle: Time will tell, although there is not widespread judgment and the strategy implied by the Bill. We heard acknowledgment in the economic profession that some a tour de force from my hon. Friend the Member for of the Budget forecasts are right—there is controversy Eltham (Clive Efford), who understandably had a go at about them. This will play out, however, so we will be the Liberal Democrats for their twisting and turning on able to see who is right in due course. VAT. He had some words to say about the Office for My hon. Friend the Member for Luton South (Gavin Budget Responsibility, which I will come back to. Shuker) talked about the balance of risk in the Budget We heard a superb speech from my hon. Friend the and the worries about problems with infrastructure Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch investment, the fact that it is being cut in his constituency East (Gregg McClymont)—[Interruption.] and the implications for employment incentives. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. There with his characteristic ingenuity, managed to bring Harry are too many private conversations going on and it is Potter into our Budget deliberations, pointing out that difficult to hear. We are getting near the end and I am our choices define who we are. I thought there was sure that hon. Members can wait a little longer. going to be a fight between him and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall), Ms Eagle: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was just who has, I suspect, enjoyed rather a liquid evening. He mentioning the speech by my hon. Friend the Member was dragged off before anything more untoward happened. for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East—I My hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen cannot pronounce the name of his constituency very Smith) pointed out the wrong-headedness of the crowding well, but it is definitely in Scotland. He made a superb out of private sector investment theory that underlies speech about the political nature of economics and the some of the judgments encompassed in the Bill. attempts that have been made to hide what are basically political choices by describing them as economic imperatives My hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris that are somehow objective. He exposed what he called Williamson) made an extremely good speech about the superstitions and myths around that whole area and seriousness of the Budget choices and made a good demolished a lot of the arguments that the Government argument that they are wrong in this case. have been making to justify the Budget judgment in the Today has been quite an interesting day because of Finance Bill. In particular, he talked with great wisdom what has been happening in the Office for Budget about the paradox of Government thrift, which he Responsibility as we have been debating the Finance pointed out is completely unlike budgeting for households. Bill. As we were coming into this debate, it was suddenly I look forward to many more such contributions from announced that Sir Alan Budd, who has become the him as the Bill goes through its stages on the Floor of oracle in the past six weeks, had decided to retire and the House. leave the OBR after a mere three months in charge. My hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and That startling piece of information was played down by Bow (Rushanara Ali) also made a good contribution, the Treasury, as one would expect, but it did prevent the which I particularly welcome because I enjoyed canvassing Chief Secretary to the Treasury from praying in aid at with her during her election campaign. She is already every verse-end the forecasts that the OBR has produced well-loved, liked and respected in her constituency. She to justify some of the policy decisions in the Budget. asked an important question that the House would do The official line is that it was all planned in advance—that well to bear in mind as we consider the policies and Sir Alan was always going to be away after he had set up legislation before us: where is the justice in the Budget the OBR—and that, somehow, nothing untoward has measures, which will hit the poorest hardest? My hon. happened. However, I would be interested to know Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) pointed whether the Minister responding to the debate tonight 329 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 330 can cast any further light—in the interests of transparency, Charlie Elphicke: May I ask the hon. Lady to which of course—on what on earth has been happening with clause in the Bill she is referring? the OBR and, in particular, with Sir Alan Budd.

Chris Leslie: It would certainly be interesting if the Ms Eagle: Mr Deputy Speaker, it looks like someone Minister could cast some light on that, but would it not is applying for your job. Every clause in the Bill hinges also jeopardise the so-called objectivity and independence on the forecasts made by the Office for Budget of the OBR if the Chancellor simply chose Sir Alan Responsibility that appear in the Red Book. In fact, Budd’s successor by himself? those forecasts run through every part of this Budget debate like the words in a stick of Blackpool rock. So the hon. Gentleman cannot, in all honesty, however late Ms Eagle: These are issues to which I am sure we will the hour, try to claim that the points I am making have return when the Bill establishing the OBR on a statutory nothing to do with the Bill before us. basis comes before the House. However, following the farrago that we have seen, it is important that this Could it be that Sir Alan has decided to sling his House should establish the principle pretty quickly that hook because he was forced to become a kind of extension the head of the OBR should be appointed by this of the Conservative party spin machine last week, when House and be answerable to it. When the Bill establishing he brought forward that highly contentious explanation— the OBR is published, I certainly hope that it contains coincidentally just an hour ahead of Prime Minister’s that provision. Question Time—of the likely effects of the Budget on jobs? We can only speculate about whether that was the Kelvin Hopkins: I have a suggestion: might it not be a case, but I would be interested to hear whether the good idea to appoint Professor David Blanchflower as Exchequer Secretary is able to shed any light on this the head of the OBR? matter, in the interest of transparency, when he winds up the debate. Ms Eagle: My hon. Friend has certainly made an intriguing suggestion, but we have to establish that this Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I House has the right to appoint the new head of the appreciate my hon. Friend’s point that we can only OBR before we can start speculating about who that speculate on this matter, but it is none the less a worrying might be. one. Given the ham-fisted effort that we have just seen to silence our debate, does she think that it might be Mr MacNeil: I am listening to the hon. Lady talking better if the Treasury Select Committee agreed to conduct about transparency. In the spirit of transparency, will a short inquiry into the circumstances surrounding Sir she honestly, openly and transparently tell the House Alan’s departure? whether she regrets allowing a rural fuel derogation to the islands of Scotland? Will she be transparent and honest on that simple point about her time in office? Ms Eagle: I am sure that the newly elected Chair of the Treasury Select Committee will make his own mind Ms Eagle: I have—and had—a great deal of sympathy up about that, but it would be interesting to see whether for the issues that the hon. Gentleman had raised, Sir Alan would actually appear before any such inquiry, which are particularly relevant in the context of the whether or not he was still in his job. islands that he represents. When one considers extending We have seen a steady unravelling of the central any potential fuel duty derogation for particular areas claims contained in the Budget since it was first unveiled to the mainland—that is what was asked about in this to the House just 15 days ago, on 22 June. It was billed case—there are other issues that arise and there are as the unavoidable Budget, and this is the legislation difficulties, as the Chief Secretary will know. We certainly that has come from it. The Budget strategy and judgments look forward to seeing what he might come up with in were presented by the Chancellor and his spin merchants his review. as infallible. The choice that he made was to cut the However, I want to return briefly to the OBR and deficit further and faster, and that was offered as the what on earth has been going on there. A great deal has only possible option. That is why these measures are been made of the independent forecasts that the Office before us today in the Bill, particularly the VAT increase. for Budget Responsibility published before and after, The neo-liberal economic ideologues who have seized and which appear in the Red Book. Today, the Treasury control of our economic policy are in the grip of their has been saying that Sir Alan was only ever going to narrow-minded dogma, and they will contemplate no stay for three months. However, at the event when he alternative. was appointed, the Chancellor said: In truth, a highly risky political gamble is encompassed “Whether I thank him again in a couple of years’ time is in this Bill—and it is a gamble with our social and another matter”. economic well-being. The Government have made a The Chancellor clearly felt that Sir Alan was going to political choice to eliminate the entire structural deficit stick around for years, yet he is now running off and has by 2014-15—hence the revenue-raising measures in this resigned within three weeks. Why has he chosen to leave Bill. This goes further and faster than even the Tory so quickly, right in the middle of our consideration of party promised in its election manifesto, and it is certainly the Finance Bill, when so many of the judgments in the against the explicit judgment on the dangers of cutting Bill are based on his forecasts? Even today, the Chief spending too soon, which was a prominent part of the Secretary was making much of Sir Alan’s forecasts to Labour and Liberal Democrat manifestos. This worry justify some of the Government decisions that appear about the macro-economic risks of targeting the deficit in the Bill. above every other consideration by speeding up its 331 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 332

[Ms Angela Eagle] would have been forthcoming if we really were in the emergency economic crisis about which the Chancellor elimination is well represented in the mainstream economic has spent the last few weeks irresponsibly stoking up debate, even if it has not featured at all in the Government’s hysteria. Instead, we have a first instalment of the calculations. Finance Bill that has been especially designed to padlock The Budget judgment before us tonight is not just the Liberal Democrats into the coalition so that they pre-Keynesian; it is actually Hooverite. It is not an cannot get out and cause a mess over the summer. economic, but a political and ideological, imperative Looking at those on the Benches opposite, I have to say being pursued in this Finance Bill. This is not an that some of them seem to be more willing hostages unavoidable Budget, but a huge and risky gamble with than the others. The twitching has definitely begun the recovery. According to the Chancellor, the overriding somewhere over there, and we intend to encourage that problem for our economy now is how the bond markets as the Bill continues its passage through the House. might react to insufficient austerity. Other differences between the Government’s rhetoric The fact that the deficit hawks have taken over in the and the grim reality have become clearer in recent days. European Union and in the G20 does not make their We were promised a fair Budget: the Chancellor insisted addiction to synchronised fiscal pain any more desirable that we would all be in this together. The Budget, we than it was in the 1930s. It does make it fashionable, but were told, would be progressive, not regressive, with tax it still may not work. The fact that these huge cuts in rises evenly distributed among income groups. There demand will be synchronised also increases the dangers would be progressive cuts. The pain of spending cuts of this policy from a macro-economic point of view. would somehow be fairly spread, with the rich bearing There is increasing evidence that the markets are now their fair share as we all marched together towards the beginning to worry about the prospects for growth and establishment of a zero deficit. One by one, those loud the likelihood of a return to low or no growth, Japanese- assertions have proved to be utterly false. style. In an interview in the News of the World on 13 March, This was also billed as the emergency Budget. It had before the election, the Chancellor said: to take place immediately after the general election, “We are all in this together. I am not going to balance the according to our increasingly melodramatic Chancellor, budget on the backs of the poor”. to avoid catastrophic disruption in the bond markets, Then, on Budget day, he made great play of calculations threatening the very future of our nation. Nothing about the effects of his measures which purported to matters, it seems, except the deficit. Jobs do not matter show that he had delivered on that promise. On closer and unemployment is a price worth paying. The risk to inspection, however, those assurances dissolved into our social fabric does not matter; it can be dismissed as empty Budget spin. long as the deficit is eliminated. We all agree that the deficit has to be tackled, and we Stephen Pound: On a point of order, Mr Deputy have set out a path to cut it by 68% by the end of this Speaker. I would never presume to teach you your job, Parliament. This was prudent and was far less risky to but some of us on this side of the Chamber are having the recovery than the hazardous path that parties opposite great difficulty in hearing the priceless words that the have now chosen. How odd it is, then, that the result of shadow Minister is enunciating because of the well-refreshed all the hype about the economic emergency is a very tiny ejaculations that are coming from those on the Benches Bill. We have before us an 11-clause Finance Bill; it is opposite. just 26 pages long, and nine of them are superfluous because they are reprinted virtually word for word from the VAT section of Finance Bill 2009. Mr Deputy Speaker: I do not think I need to deal with that point of order. Kelvin Hopkins: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to warn against the dangers of deflation, which are much Ms Eagle: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am more worrying than anything to do with inflation. Is it trying to put the idea of well-refreshed ejaculations not even more worrying that the EU nations have firmly out of my mind. collectively decided to cut their deficits, which will just I was about to discuss the analysis by Howard Reed make the problem even worse? Should we not follow the of Landman Economics and Tim Horton of the Fabian advice of President Obama, who suggested that we still Society of the progressive or regressive nature of the need the fiscal stimulus? Budget. They calculated the effect of the entire package, not just the tax changes. They included the distribution Ms Eagle: There is certainly a respectable mainstream of the billions of pounds of extra spending cuts that economic argument that synchronised austerity is worse had been announced, and then added an assumption of for growth and could achieve the opposite of its intended 25% cuts in departmental budgets. Their calculation effects on the deficit by increasing rather than decreasing showed that the combination of all the measures announced it. My hon. Friend is exactly right. in the Budget that this Bill begins to enact will take Here we have this tiny Bill of 11 clauses. After all the £1,514 from the bottom 10% of households, which is hysteria surrounding its creation, why is it that size? I fully 21.7% of their income. In sharp contrast, the think there is only one plausible explanation. The Bill richest 10% will experience an annual loss in income before us contains just those measures that the Chancellor and services of £2,685, which is the equivalent of just must be worrying that the Liberal Democrats will wobble 3.6% of their income. If there were 40% cuts in departmental on over the summer recess. I would be the first to admit budgets, as was briefed by the Chancellor and Chief that size is not everything, but we might reasonably Secretary at the weekend, the figures would be grimmer have expected that a more complete set of measures still. 333 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 334

My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, shadow Chief Secretary, someone in the Deputy Prime Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), the Shadow Minister’s constituency finally did the decent thing and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, commissioned took it down. the House of Commons Library to conduct a gender Some Liberal Democrat Cabinet Ministers are even audit of the plans. It revealed that women would bear a now trying to argue that VAT is not as regressive as they disproportionate amount of the pain in the Budget. Of thought it was before the election. It seems that there is the nearly £8 billion net revenue to be raised by the no limit to the depths that they are prepared to sink to financial year 2014-15, £6 billion will come from women justify the betrayal of their pre-election promises. VAT and just £2 billion from men, despite the fact that is regressive. It hits pensioners and those who are too women have considerably lower levels of income and poor to pay any income tax the hardest. Why then have wealth than men. The analysis does not include the the Government chosen to raise the bulk of their new impact of the savage cuts in public expenditure that the tax revenue, nearly £13 billion, by using that tax? Deputy Prime Minister believes are necessary, and which are now being planned and announced. As women We were assured that the cuts would be fairly distributed make up more of the public sector work force and rely in a progressive way, but our early experience of the more on public services, they will be hit harder by the decisions coming out of the Treasury has confirmed pay freeze, hit harder by the job losses, and hit harder our worst fears. The poorest areas have been hardest hit by the decimation of public provision for the needy, by cuts to discretionary programmes, which were especially in their role as carers. intentionally aimed at areas in the most need. One of the first cuts that the Government made was The Chief Secretary purported to rebut that earlier to the future jobs fund. That is at a time when we know, today by reading out a suggestion that the figures were thanks to a leaked Treasury document, that the Budget not accurate because they assumed that all the family measures alone will destroy 1.3 million jobs in both the support is paid to women. It is not true that that public and private sectors and there are 69 students assumption was made by the House of Commons Library. chasing every job. The prediction by the OBR that However, there are a couple of measures where the 2 million private sector jobs will be created in a mere House of Commons Library has assumed 100% female five years is highly suspect, as an analysis by Adam Lent receipt of benefits. That is the health in pregnancy grant has pointed out. It took seven years after the 1980s and the Sure Start maternity grant. recession and nine and a half years after the 1990s The Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats recession to create 2 million jobs, and we are expected will have to learn that merely asserting as loudly as to believe that the 2 million mark will be surpassed in possible that the measures in the Bill are “progressive” record quick time despite the global shock of the credit does not make it true. Producing a distributional table crunch. on page 67 of the Red Book which appears to show that What about the sneaky little move from the retail it is progressive does not make their assertion true prices index to the much lower consumer prices index as either, especially when the Institute for Fiscal Studies the definition used for benefit indexation? That cuts demolishes it the next day by pointing out that it £6 billion from the benefits bill at the expense of pensioners included all Labour’s key progressive measures enacted and the poorest, the most vulnerable in our society. The before the election to safeguard lower- income groups, delay in implementing the VAT increase will ensure that and that it conveniently stops in financial year 2012-13, the price inflation it causes— just before all the cuts to family support announced in the Budget are due to be implemented. If the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats were so confident that these The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Patrick measures are indeed progressive, they would commit McLoughlin) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order the Government to carry on publishing those tables— No. 36), but the Deputy Speaker withheld his assent and [Interruption.] declined to put that Question Mr Byrne: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The House must come to May I ask for your guidance under Standing Order order. Members are obviously coming near to the end. No. 15(1)(a), which says that the proceedings on any If we have a bit more patience, I am sure that we can stage of a move on. “bill brought in upon a ways and means resolution” including the Finance Bill, are exempt from interruption Ms Eagle: If those two parties were so confident that and may be proceeded with until “any hour though these measures are progressive, they would commit the opposed”. Government to carry on publishing those tables when the cuts really start to bite. Mr McLoughlin rose— The huge hike in VAT is the regressive centrepiece of this regressive Budget and it features in the Bill. That is Mr Deputy Speaker: The right hon. Member is quite despite the fact that before the election the Prime Minister entitled to move the closure motion. It is the decision of said on 23 April to Jeremy Paxman: the Chair whether to accept it, so what I would say is, “We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT”, Angela Eagle, I am sure you must be very near the end and the Deputy Prime Minister fronted a huge VAT tax of your speech now. bombshell poster campaign warning about the dangers of electing a Tory Government, which still featured on Ms Eagle: I was talking about the sneaky little move his website until 9 o’clock this evening: when alerted to from the retail prices index to the much lower consumer its continued presence by my right hon. Friend the prices index as the definition used for benefit indexes. 335 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 336

[Ms Angela Eagle] former colleague—Lord Myners, she would find that in response to his freedom of information request we sent The delay in implementing the VAT increase will ensure him a copy of Alan Budd’s contract, which makes it that the price inflation it causes is not reflected in this clear that it was a three-month contract? It also has to year’s indexation cost, which is another sneaky saving be said that in providing credibility for the public finances, from the poorest that the Government hope no one will he achieved more in three months than the Labour notice. party achieved in 13 years. This Finance Bill is a risky ideological experiment It was imperative that the new Government moved that will inflict real pain and suffering on those who did further and faster in reducing our deficit and putting not cause the credit crunch. The Bill is regressive not the public finances on a firmer footing. What were the progressive, it is deeply unfair and it is taking a huge risks if we did not do that? At best we would have had a gamble with an economic recovery that is not yet substantial structural deficit at the end of the Parliament, assured—we intend to oppose it. and we would have paid more than £70 billion a year in debt interest. At worst, we ran a risk of the UK being 1.56 am swept up in a sovereign debt crisis, of a downgrading in our credit rating, of a loss of confidence by international The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David investors, of interest rates having to rise in response, Gauke): We have had nine and a half hours of debate, and as a consequence, of any recovery being choked off we have heard many speeches from Labour Members—to as credit became more expensive and less available. This be precise, I should perhaps say that we have heard one was a risk that the coalition Government were not speech many times—and we have heard not one word of prepared to run, even if others were. It was necessary apology. We debate this Bill in the context of a crisis in and overdue that we had a Government who were our public finances, yet we do not see the two right hon. willing to take decisive action, to get a grip of the Members most responsible for that here: the shadow situation, and to set out a clear and credible path out of Chancellor and the right honourable—and absent— this inherited mess. That is what we have done. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). Over the past few years, few contributions have been Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Will the Minister made by Labour Members on Finance Bills; usually we give way? heard a contribution from the then Member for Wolverhampton South West, Rob Marris, who is a Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman had nine and a half well-respected figure. We heard many speeches from hours to take part in this debate. I am not going to give Labour Members today, but I must say that although way to him now. the quantity has increased, the quality has deteriorated. There was one exception: the hon. Member for Scunthorpe It is right that we should focus our attention on (Nic Dakin) made a fine maiden speech. spending cuts. That is the best way of ensuring a successful fiscal consolidation; none the less, it was also necessary We also heard three other excellent maiden speeches. to raise taxes. Our challenge was to do so in a way that One was made by my hon. Friend the Member for was fair and enhanced the competitiveness of the UK Weaver Vale (Graham Evans), who pointed out that we economy, so that we could encourage the necessary do not help the poor by piling up debt. Another was private sector growth. made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer). I was particularly delighted to hear that, We will open Britain up for business by creating a because I grew up in that town and I remember that more competitive system of corporation tax. We will even in the days of substantial Conservative majorities reduce the main rate from 28% today to just 24% over it was a Labour-held seat. That goes to show what a four years. Rather than putting the small profits rate up, fantastic effort he has put in there. I was also delighted as our predecessors planned to do, we will reduce it to to hear the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the 20%. That proposal has been widely welcomed by business Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay), groups such as the CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce whom I have known for nearly 20 years. I also wish to and the Institute of Directors. thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham For the first time we have set out the distributional (Mr Redwood), the hon. Members for Solihull (Lorely impact of all the Government’s tax and benefit changes Burt) and for St Ives (Andrew George), and my hon. that will affect the public over the next two years. It is Friends the Members for North East Somerset (Jacob clear that we have ensured that every part of society will Rees-Mogg) and for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), for their make a contribution to reducing the deficit while protecting contributions. the most vulnerable. Even with some tough decisions, We debate this Finance Bill in the context of a need we have ensured that child poverty will not increase in for a further fiscal tightening. This country is borrowing the next two years, through a significant above-inflation more than at any time in our peacetime history. We have increase in child tax credit. seen real turmoil in the markets, with concerns about We have not heard proposals from the Opposition sovereign debt contagion and with Spain, Portugal and about how they would raise more tax. To be fair, one or Greece having their credit ratings downgraded. We have two Opposition Members, even former members of the seen the independent Office for Budget Responsibility Government, said, “We should have raised more from downgrade our predecessors’ less than independent growth the bank levy,” somewhat forgetting that when the forecasts and increase the estimate of the structural Labour party was in government it refused to introduce deficit. a bank levy. May I respond to the point about Sir Alan Budd by I know that there is sincere concern on both sides of saying that the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) the House that those who are materially deprived may may find that if she spoke to her colleague—or perhaps have to pay disproportionately more in tax as a consequence 337 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 338 of the change in VAT, but I urge all hon. Members to diminish our competitiveness, and choices that are fair look at the academic debate on this matter. If they want to all sections of society. I commend the Bill to the to see a correlation between material deprivation and House. income, the best way of looking at it is to look at the Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second expenditure basis. The fact is that income distribution time. will always reflect the fact that there are groups in society with volatile incomes who are not as materially The House divided: Ayes 332, Noes 230. deprived as others, but who will from time to time earn Division No. 14] [2.7 am less and at other times earn more. As a consequence— AYES Hugh Bayley: Will the Minister give way? Adams, Nigel Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Afriyie, Adam Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Mr Gauke: If Opposition Members do not want to Aldous, Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse engage in this debate, that is fair enough, but the fact is Alexander, rh Danny Collins, Damian that— Andrew, Stuart Colvile, Oliver Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hugh Bayley: Will the Minister give way? Bacon, Mr Richard Crockart, Mike Bagshawe, Ms Louise Crouch, Tracey Baker, Norman Davey, Mr Edward Hon. Members: Give way. Baker, Steve Davies, David T. C. Baldry, Tony (Monmouth) Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. If the Minister wanted to Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Glyn give way, he would do so. The hon. Gentleman has been Barclay, Stephen Davies, Philip in the House long enough to recognise that the Minister Barker, Gregory de Bois, Nick is not going to give way. Baron, Mr John Dinenage, Caroline Barwell, Gavin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Mr Gauke: We are not going to take any lectures from Bebb, Guto Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Beith, rh Sir Alan Doyle-Price, Jackie the Opposition. Remember, theirs is the party that Bellingham, Mr Henry Drax, Richard doubled the 10p tax rate. Of course, at that point the Benyon, Richard Duddridge, James Government did not produce a distributional analysis. I Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan, rh Mr Alan have asked officials to look into this, and if we look at Berry, Jake Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain the distributional impacts of the changes in income tax Bingham, Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip announced in 2007, an interesting fact emerges: the Binley, Mr Brian Ellis, Michael bottom five deciles all lose and the top five deciles all Birtwistle, Gordon Ellison, Jane win. That was the consequence of the policy of the Blackman, Bob Ellwood, Mr Tobias right hon. and absent Member for Kirkcaldy and Blackwood, Nicola Elphicke, Charlie Cowdenbeath, and some of us remember Labour Members Blunt, Mr Crispin Eustice, George cheering when that policy was announced. Boles, Nick Evans, Graham Bone, Mr Peter Evans, Jonathan What a contrast with the coalition Government. Whereas Bradley, Karen Evennett, Mr David the Labour Government raised income tax on the poorest, Brady, Mr Graham Fabricant, Michael we have taken 880,000 people out of income tax. What Brake, Tom Fallon, Michael a contrast on the deficit, as well. I do not believe that Bray, Angie Farron, Tim when the Labour Government came to power in 1997 Brazier, Mr Julian Featherstone, Lynne they intended to leave the biggest budget deficit in our Bridgen, Andrew Field, Mr Mark peacetime history, but the fact is that they did. We know Brine, Mr Steve Foster, Mr Don it, the British people know it, and deep down, Labour Brokenshire, James Fox,rhDrLiam Members must know it too, but the more we listen to Brooke, Annette Francois, rh Mr Mark them—in complete denial, opposing each and every Browne, Mr Jeremy Freeman, George measure to control the deficit, failing to engage in how Bruce, Fiona Freer, Mike we solve the problem—the more absurd and out of Bruce, rh Malcolm Fullbrook, Lorraine Buckland, Mr Robert Fuller, Richard touch they look. That will not impress many people. Burley, Mr Aidan Garnier, Mr Edward The British people know that this Government are Burns, Conor Garnier, Mark sensibly and pragmatically clearing up a mess left by Burns, Mr Simon Gauke, Mr David our predecessors. I say to Labour Members: accept that Burrowes, Mr David George, Andrew fact, engage constructively in what we do about it, but Burstow, Mr Paul Gibb, Mr Nick above all, apologise for it. It is clear, however, that we Burt, Alistair Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl will not get any constructive engagement from Labour Burt, Lorely Glen, John Members. Instead, we see Labour’s age-old habit of Byles, Dan Goldsmith, Zac failing to confront the hard truths: self-indulgent, short- Cable, rh Vince Goodwill, Mr Robert sighted, with passion and resolution marching into the Cairns, Alun Gove, rh Michael wilderness—irresponsible in government, irrelevant in Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Graham, Richard Carmichael, Mr Alistair Grant, Mrs Helen opposition. Carmichael, Neil Gray, Mr James This country deserves better than that. The British Carswell, Mr Douglas Grayling, rh Chris people know that sorting out the mess will not be easy. Cash, Mr William Green, Damian Yes, sacrifices will have to be made, but in this Finance Chishti, Rehman Greening, Justine Bill we are making tough choices—choices that will Chope, Mr Christopher Grieve, rh Mr Dominic restore our public finances, choices that enhance not Clark, rh Greg Griffiths, Andrew 339 Finance Bill6 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 340

Gummer, Ben Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew Truss, Elizabeth Gyimah, Mr Sam Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant Turner, Mr Andrew Halfon, Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, Alok Tyrie, Mr Andrew Hames, Duncan Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Uppal, Paul Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Jason Shepherd, Mr Richard Vaizey, Mr Edward Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Karl Simmonds, Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Hancock, Matthew McIntosh, Miss Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Vickers, Martin Hancock, Mr Mike McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Skidmore, Chris Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Hands, Greg McPartland, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Walker, Mr Robin Harper, Mr Mark McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Wallace, Mr Ben Harrington, Richard Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Walter, Mr Robert Harris, Rebecca Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Ward, Mr David Hart, Simon Miller, Maria Soames, Nicholas Watkinson, Angela Harvey, Nick Mills, Nigel Soubry, Anna Weatherley, Mike Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Milton, Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Webb, Steve Hayes, Mr John Moore, rh Michael Spencer, Mr Mark Wharton, James Heald, Mr Oliver Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Heath, Mr David Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John White, Chris Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Whittaker, Craig Hemming, John Morris, David Stewart, Iain Whittingdale, Mr John Henderson, Gordon Morris, James Stewart, Rory Wiggin, Bill Hendry, Charles Mosley, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Willetts, rh Mr David Herbert, rh Nick Mowat, David Stride, Mel Williams, Mr Mark Hinds, Damian Mulholland, Greg Stuart, Mr Graham Williams, Roger Hoban, Mr Mark Mundell, rh David Sturdy, Julian Williams, Stephen Hollingbery, George Munt, Tessa Swales, Ian Williamson, Gavin Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Sheryll Swayne, Mr Desmond Wilson, Mr Rob Holloway, Mr Adam Murrison, Dr Andrew Swinson, Jo Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hopkins, Kris Neill, Robert Swire, Mr Hugo Wright, Jeremy Horwood, Martin Newton, Sarah Syms, Mr Robert Wright, Simon Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Tapsell, Sir Peter Young, rh Sir George Hughes, Simon Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Zahawi, Nadhim Huhne, rh Chris Nuttall, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward Tellers for the Ayes: Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Stephen Crabb and Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Tredinnick, David Mark Hunter Jackson, Mr Stewart Ollerenshaw, Eric James, Margot Opperman, Guy Javid, Sajid Osborne, rh Mr George NOES Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ottaway, Richard Abbott, Ms Diane Clark, Katy Johnson, Gareth Paice, Mr James Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Clarke, rh Mr Tom Johnson, Joseph Parish, Neil Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Coaker, Vernon Jones, Andrew Patel, Priti Alexander, Heidi Connarty, Michael Jones, Mr David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Ali, Rushanara Cooper, Rosie Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Allen, Mr Graham Cooper, rh Yvette Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, Mike Anderson, Mr David Corbyn, Jeremy Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Bailey, Mr Adrian Crausby, Mr David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Percy, Andrew Bain, Mr William Creagh, Mary Kirby, Simon Perry, Claire Balls, rh Ed Creasy, Stella Kwarteng, Kwasi Phillips, Stephen Banks, Gordon Cruddas, Jon Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pincher, Christopher Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cryer, John Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Alex Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Mr Jim Latham, Pauline Pritchard, Mark Begg, Miss Anne Cunningham, Tony Leadsom, Andrea Pugh, Dr John Benn, rh Hilary Curran, Margaret Lee, Jessica Raab, Mr Dominic Berger, Luciana Dakin, Nic Lee, Dr Phillip Randall, rh Mr John Betts, Mr Clive Danczuk, Simon Leech, Mr John Redwood, rh Mr John Blackman-Woods, Roberta David, Mr Wayne Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Blears, rh Hazel Davidson, Mr Ian Leigh, Mr Edward Reevell, Simon Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint Leslie, Charlotte Reid, Mr Alan Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brennan, Kevin Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Brandon Robathan, Mr Andrew Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dobbin, Jim Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Hugh Brown, Mr Russell Dobson, rh Frank Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Bryant, Chris Docherty, Thomas Lidington, Mr David Rogerson, Dan Burden, Richard Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Burnham, rh Andy Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Byrne, rh Mr Liam Doran, Mr Frank Lopresti, Jack Russell, Bob Cairns, David Dowd, Jim Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Campbell, Mr Alan Doyle, Gemma Loughton, Tim Sanders, Mr Adrian Campbell, Mr Gregory Dromey, Jack Lumley, Karen Sandys, Laura Caton, Martin Dugher, Michael Macleod, Mary Scott, Mr Lee Chapman, Mrs Jenny Durkan, Mark 341 Finance Bill 6 JULY 2010 342

Eagle, Ms Angela McCrea, Dr William Umunna, Mr Chuka Wilson, Phil Eagle, Maria McDonagh, Siobhain Vaz, rh Keith Wilson, Sammy Edwards, Jonathan McDonnell, John Vaz, Valerie Winnick, Mr David Efford, Clive McFadden, rh Mr Pat Walley, Joan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Elliott, Julie McGovern, Alison Watson, Mr Tom Woodcock, John Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Jim Watts, Mr Dave Woolas, Mr Phil Engel, Natascha McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Weir, Mr Mike Wright, David Esterson, Bill McKechin, Ann Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Wright, Mr Iain Evans, Chris McKinnell, Catherine Whitehead, Dr Alan Tellers for the Noes: Field, rh Mr Frank Meacher, rh Mr Michael Wicks, rh Malcolm Mr Frank Roy and Fitzpatrick, Jim Mearns, Ian Williamson, Chris Lyn Brown Flello, Robert Michael, rh Alun Flint, rh Caroline Miliband, rh David Fovargue, Yvonne Miliband, rh Edward Question accordingly agreed to. Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Bill read a Second time. Gapes, Mike Mitchell, Austin Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Gardiner, Barry Moon, Mrs Madeleine Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica Order No. 63(2)), That the Bill be committed to a Glass, Pat Morrice, Graeme Committee of the whole House.—(Jeremy Wright.) Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Grahame M. Question agreed to. Goggins, rh Paul Mudie, Mr George Goodman, Helen Munn, Meg Business without Debate Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Mr Jim Green, Kate Murphy, rh Paul Greenwood, Lilian Murray, Ian BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Griffith, Nia Nandy, Lisa Gwynne, Andrew Nash, Pamela Motion made, Hain, rh Mr Peter O’Donnell, Fiona That, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the Hamilton, Mr David Onwurah, Chi intervals between stages of Bills brought in upon Ways and Hamilton, Mr Fabian Osborne, Sandra Means Resolutions, more than one stage of the Finance Bill may Hanson, rh Mr David Owen, Albert be taken at any sitting of the House.—(Jeremy Wright.) Harman, rh Ms Harriet Paisley, Ian Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Hon. Members: Object. Hepburn, Mr Stephen Perkins, Toby Heyes, David Phillipson, Bridget Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen DELEGATED LEGISLATION Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel Order No. 118 (6)), Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan CONSTITUTIONAL LAW Illsley, Mr Eric Riordan, Mrs Linda Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, Angus That the draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Jackson, Glenda Robertson, John Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010, James, Mrs Siân C. Robinson, Mr Geoffrey which was laid before this House on 1 March 2010, in the previous Parliament, be approved.—(Jeremy Wright.) Jamieson, Cathy Rotheram, Steve Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay Question agreed to. Johnson, Diana R. Ruane, Chris Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Joan Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas PETITION Jones, Mr Kevan Sharma, Mr Virendra Jones, Susan Elan Sheridan, Jim Proposed development north of Holt Avenue Joyce, Eric Shuker, Gavin (Adel, Leeds) Keeley, Barbara Simpson, David Keen, Alan Skinner, Mr Dennis 2.23 am Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): May I Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Angela (Penistone and say that despite the childish, tedious and repetitive Lavery, Ian Stocksbridge) attempts of Labour Members to silence the people of Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Adel— Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Owen Long, Naomi Spellar, rh Mr John Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. This Love, Mr Andrew Straw, rh Mr Jack is a petition, and you are meant to speak to the petition. Lucas, Caroline Stringer, Graham You may have your own views about tonight, but you Lucas, Ian Stuart, Ms Gisela cannot use them now; please address the petition that MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry you are putting before the House. Mactaggart, Fiona Tami, Mark Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thomas, Mr Gareth Mahmood, Shabana Thornberry, Emily Greg Mulholland: I was simply saying, Mr Deputy McCabe, Steve Trickett, Jon Speaker, that the people of Adel would not be silenced. McCann, Mr Michael Turner, Karl The petition is about the proposed development north McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Derek of Holt avenue in Adel. It is against the previous McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Stephen Labour Government’s entirely bureaucratic, unnecessary, 343 Business without Debate 6 JULY 2010 344

[Greg Mulholland] Llanishen Reservoir Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House centralised and over-ambitious targets for housing in do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Wright.) the regional spatial strategies, which cause a legal loophole that can allow developments such as the one north of Holt avenue in Adel potentially to go ahead, against the 2.25 am wishes of local residents, local residents associations Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): This is the and Leeds city council. I am delighted to present this first occasion on which I have been able to address the petition against that, and, of course, to welcome the House in debate for more than 13 years, following my coalition Government’s commitment to abolishing these decade of service as MEP for Wales in the European targets. Parliament. Although this is not therefore a maiden The petition states: speech as such, I want to begin by mentioning my The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons predecessor, Julie Morgan. I paid full tribute to her urges the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government service in the Welsh Grand Committee last week, so I to use all his powers to review the previous Government’s targets will not go into detail again today, but I wish to introduce for housing. the debate by highlighting the cross-party agreement in Following is the full text of the petition: Cardiff on the subject of Llanishen reservoir between [The Petition of residents of Adel and Wharfedale, the me, my Labour predecessor and the hon. Member for surrounding area, and others, Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), who, because of an Declares that the petitioners have serious concerns impending happy event, cannot be here this evening. about the previous Government’s overly ambitious targets For the past 35 years, the Reservoirs Act 1975 has for housing; and further declares that the petitioners provided a robust procedure for maintaining the safety believe that these targets will lead to unwanted of British reservoirs. The law requires that A-class developments—for example, the proposed development reservoirs must be inspected every 10 years by an for the land north of Holt Avenue in Adel. independent engineer drawn from a panel compiled by The Petitioners therefore request that the House of the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Commons urges the Secretary of State for Communities Affairs. Independence means not being in the employment and Local Government to use all his powers to review the of the owner of the reservoir, who is free to select any previous Government’s targets for housing. DEFRA panel engineer. Once such an engineer proposes further action, those measures become mandatory. They And the Petitioners remain, etc.] are, to use the words of one of the panel engineers who [P000841] plays a key part in this story, “set as tablets of stone”. They cannot be altered without a new inspection, and a supervising engineer, again drawn from the DEFRA panel, must be appointed by the reservoir owner and given responsibility for carrying them out in accordance with the original recommendations. If the inspecting engineer makes inappropriate safety recommendations, the reservoir owner can have the issue referred to a referee under section 19 of the 1975 Act. That process was devised to provide strong powers to maintain reservoir safety, with appropriate review powers for the reservoir owner. However, the legislation and its method of enforcement are actually being abused to undermine safety in the case of Llanishen reservoir in Cardiff, which threatens to bring about the destruction of the reservoir itself. Llanishen reservoir was built between 1884 and 1886 to supply water to the city of Cardiff, but it has not been used for water supply for more than 30 years. For many years the local council has leased the reservoir for sailing training, and the area is widely popular for both walking and fishing. However, the current owners of the reservoir, Western Power Distribution, a subsidiary of a major US energy corporation, PPL—formerly Pennsylvania Power and Light—wants to redevelop the land for more than 300 houses and flats. For the past eight years, that US giant’s subsidiary has put forward multiple planning applications. All have been refused, and PPL has challenged every refusal. Additionally, the area has been granted multiple protections. It is a designated site of special scientific interest and site of importance for nature conservation, and the reservoir structure itself has been listed by the National Assembly as a structure of special architectural and historic importance, with the active approval and 345 Llanishen Reservoir6 JULY 2010 Llanishen Reservoir 346 recommendation of the Institution of Civil Engineers. qualified civil engineer— PPL’s subsidiary WPD unsuccessfully challenged each “Mr Owens has not clarified the conditions under which he will and every one of those designations. However, I want to provide certification. make it clear that the debate is not about those planning The wording of the recommendations made by Dr Hughes is powers, which have been devolved to the National Assembly. such that a complete emptying of the reservoir is not mandatory. I mention the ambitions of PPL’s subsidiary because The QCE Mr Owens has offered little evidence to support his they form an important background and context to the approach of fully draining the reservoir in preference to others.” events that give rise to my debate. Most importantly, the report states: “It is apparent that the statutory measures are being addressed A DEFRA panel engineer, Mr Earp, inspected the in a manner which will create new risks to reservoir safety”. reservoir under the Reservoirs Act in 2004 and passed it Let me underline that. According to the Environment as safe. That is the last we will hear of Mr Earp. The Agency’s own adviser, a DEFRA-approved panel engineer, next statutory inspection was not due to take place until the works that Atkins intends to carry out at Llanishen 2014. However, WPD brought forward the next inspection reservoir create new risks to safety. When such a by six years, and decided to appoint a different engineer. fundamental disagreement between professionals exists, In other words, the reservoir owner, having received a there ought to be a mechanism for referring it to a report declaring that the reservoir was safe, and not professional body for adjudication, but under the legislation, needing to do another for 10 years, decided to have an the right to refer to a referee appears to be granted examination undertaken only four years later. exclusively to the owners of the reservoir. WPD and its The engineer who was appointed, Dr Andrew Hughes, US owners unsurprisingly have no interest in such a suggested that the owners made the decision not because process. of any risk to safety, but in anticipation of their being In the meantime, the Environment Agency, as the successful in any change in use of the reservoir. Dr Hughes enforcement authority under the 1975 Act, is obliged to was required by law to be independent of WPD. He is serve notice on the reservoir owners to insist on the employed by a company called Atkins, the multinational works being undertaken, even though its own DEFRA civil engineering consultancy, which is active in many panel engineer has warned that the works will compromise countries. He undertook his inspection in 2008 and, to the safety of the reservoir. I understand from the the shock of many, including the local reservoir action Environment Agency that despite that, it has drawn the group, recommended that a full examination of the conflicting reports to the attention of DEFRA, which pipework at the base of the reservoir be carried out in of course retains the power of appointing panel engineers the interests of safety. Then Dr Hughes then left the under the Act. scene. Having prepared his report, he has subsequently The local newspaper, the South Wales Echo, has run a refused to engage in any debate with third parties about major campaign urging PPL to intervene. PPL’s chairman, his conclusions, and he considers his role to be closed. president and chief executive officer, Mr James Miller, Under the Reservoirs Act, the next step is for a is apparently proud of the environmental record of his supervising engineer to be appointed by the reservoir company and boasts on his website that owners to carry out Dr Hughes’s recommendations. “at PPL doing the right thing comes naturally”. That engineer has been appointed. He is Mr Owens—again, The paper’s readers were urged to write to Mr Miller to a DEFRA panel engineer— whose services were apparently urge him to do the right thing. The website also states: offered to the reservoir owners by Atkins, the company “We have a clear expectation that everyone in the PPL family whose employee produced the original independent at all our operations around the world will live up to the company’s inspection. Mr Owens said: expectations for integrity and ethical behaviour”, “Atkins Limited offered Western Power Distribution Ltd my but I am afraid that Mr Miller has proved to be less of a services as one of their Qualified Civil Engineers, to oversee the Ralph Nader and rather more of a Montgomery Burns. execution of the mandatory measures in the interests of safety He actually failed to respond to any of the letters of recommended in Dr Hughes Inspection Report dated May 2008. concern sent by local residents and others, and referred WPD accepted Atkins offer and appointed me accordingly.” each and every one back to WPD in the UK. Mr Owens has declared that the reservoir must be In a curious irony, Mr Keith Clarke, the CEO of fully drained. Given that the reservoir is filled solely by Atkins, is visiting Cardiff on the 15 July to receive rainfall, if it is drained, it will take a decade to refill it, recognition from Cardiff university of his contribution and major damage may be caused to the integrity of the to civil engineering. Mr Clarke is fully aware of the role whole structure in the meantime. The recommendations that his company has been playing in relation to the of the Atkins engineers, Dr Hughes and Mr Owens, future of Llanishen reservoir. I challenge him to visit have been closely examined and challenged by two the reservoir, to meet the reservoir action group and other DEFRA panel engineers, Dr Binnie, who has locally elected representatives, and to see what is being been working for the local residents group, the reservoir done by his colleagues in his company’s name. action group, to which I pay tribute for all its work in Robust and valuable laws that have been used to the past eight years, and Mr Alan Warren of Halcrow—a maintain the safety of our reservoirs for a generation very well known civil engineering company—who was are being cynically abused in my city to bring about the commissioned to advise the Environment Agency. opposite effect, and an important historic landmark, After a freedom of information request, the Environment recognised as being of national importance, is about to Agency recently provided a copy of Mr Warren’s report. be vandalised. I have it here. It was produced in the past month and has come into my hands only in the past fortnight. In it, 2.38 am Mr Warren says: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales “The overall objectives of the work are not clear to me and the (Mr David Jones): I congratulate my hon. Friend the QCE”— Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) on securing 347 Llanishen Reservoir6 JULY 2010 Llanishen Reservoir 348

[Mr David Jones] sewage or trade effluents directly into surface waters, rivers, streams, canals, groundwater or the sea. In fulfilling this debate, which is important both for his constituents its obligations under this Act, the Environment Agency and, because it concerns Government policy on reservoir determines environmental permit applications to regulate safety, for the whole country. the water being discharged in order to protect water As my hon. Friend will appreciate and as he identified, quality, the environment and human health. the case of the Llanishen reservoir is complex, and During its consultation on the application, which was today is not the first occasion on which the matter has advertised in the South Wales Echo, the agency received been ventilated on the Floor of the House—as recently a number of comments from the local community, as last February, it was referred to by his predecessor, including some from the Llanishen reservoir action Julie Morgan, in the St David’s day debate. The case of group. These comments are being considered as part of Llanishen reservoir involves consideration not only of the agency’s assessment of the application. If Western reservoir safety, but of protection of the environment, Power proves to the agency’s satisfaction that the draw-down planning law and listed buildings consent. While matters will not cause any detrimental effect on the Nant Fawr relating to the safety of reservoirs in Wales are devolved, stream, its wildlife or the local environment, the agency and I know that the Welsh Assembly Government Minister is obliged to issue an environmental permit. However, if for Environment, Sustainability and Housing has been granted, the permit will place appropriate conditions on monitoring events closely, the Environment Agency is the company to minimise the risk of pollution or damage responsible for enforcing matters of reservoir safety to the local environment. in Wales. The SSSI status conferred upon the Llanishen reservoir The Reservoirs Act 1975, as amended, sets out the embankments by the Countryside Council for Wales in safety regime for reservoirs in England, Wales and September 2005, which was confirmed in May 2006, Scotland. Llanishen reservoir is a large raised reservoir will no doubt be an important factor in the agency’s under the terms of the Act, that is to say one designed assessment. I understand that Western Power has consulted to hold or capable of holding more than 25,000 cubic the Countryside Council on its plans for the reservoir. metres of water above the natural level of the land. As The listed building status of the dam attached to the such, it should—pursuant to section 10 of the Act—be reservoir by Cadw is also an important factor to be inspected by a qualified inspecting engineer at least taken into account, but it is my understanding that no every 10 years. application for listed building consent has been submitted by the company in relation to the drain-down. In any As my hon. Friend said, Llanishen reservoir was last case, consideration of any such application would be a inspected in 2008 and the inspecting engineer made a matter for Cardiff city council as the appropriate authority. number of recommendations relevant to its safety. He If at any time the Environment Agency comes to believe recommended that a survey of all valves and pipework that the reservoir has become unsafe or detects any in the reservoir should be carried out to check their damage or pollution to the environment from the further layout and condition. Although he did not specifically draw-down proposed by Western Power, proportionate require a drain- down of the reservoir, he pointed out enforcement action will be taken against the company. that this would be necessary in order for its operator, I recognise and share my hon. Friend’s concerns over Western Power, to implement his recommendations. the many issues he has identified in relation to the Once such recommendations have been submitted by reservoir at Llanishen. I hope also that I may reassure the engineer, there is a legal obligation on the operator him of the importance I attach to the debate on matters to implement any necessary measures as soon as practicable. that are not just of concern to local communities, but In the case of Llanishen, the inspection report specified which might indeed have wider implications and which that these should be done within 12 months. I intend to take steps to pursue. I therefore intend to Western Power did not complete these measures on write to the Welsh Assembly Government Minister with time so the Environment Agency served an enforcement responsibility for the environment and sustainability, notice on the company. That notice required the company Jane Davidson, who has devolved responsibilities in this to complete the outstanding safety measures within an matter, to convey the concerns raised in the House this agreed timescale. Western Power elected to draw down evening. I intend also to write in a similar vein to the reservoir to carry out a visual inspection of the Robert Symons, the chief executive of Western Power, pipework. It began drawing down the water on 26 February to urge that his company engages with interested parties 2010 by siphoning water over the reservoir embankment in this matter. and into the Nant Fawr stream. The water level within As my hon. Friend has so eloquently pointed out, the the reservoir has been lowered by approximately 4 metres. Llanishen case has highlighted the fact that, whereas The siphoning has now stopped. a reservoir operator has a means of challenging a Although the Environment Agency has no legal powers determination by the Environment Agency, current to prevent the draw-down from happening, it has written legislation does not provide for reconsideration by an to the company to emphasise that in the agency’s view inspecting engineer of his report once it has been submitted the company does not necessarily need to drain down to the operator, even if new information or a contrary Llanishen reservoir in order to carry out the safety view is provided from another source. That seems to be inspections identified by the inspecting engineer. However, an issue that merits further reflection. I therefore intend should the company insist on completing the draw-down, also write to my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury the company needs an environmental permit or discharge (Richard Benyon), the Under-Secretary at the Department consent from the agency to proceed. This document is for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with responsibility issued under section 85 of the Water Resources Act for the natural environment and fisheries, to ask him to 1991 and gives permission to discharge water that may consider the scope for addressing this apparent anomaly contain silts or sediments—such as in reservoir water— in the course of the Government’s implementation of 349 Llanishen Reservoir6 JULY 2010 Llanishen Reservoir 350 section 4 of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, Mr Jones: I shall be pleased to accept that invitation. which will introduce a risk-based approach to the assessment I will place copies of all the letters to which I have of reservoir safety, and on which the Government will referred in the Library of the House. I hope that the consult in due course. process that I have outlined will give my hon. Friend the assurance he needs that the safety and environmental Jonathan Evans: The reservoir action group and local impact of the operation of Llanishen reservoir, as well residents will be very pleased to hear my hon. Friend’s as the concerns of his constituents and the wider community statements from the Dispatch Box. Within his busy in Cardiff, are being given the priority and attention the schedule, when he is in Cardiff on some convenient matter deserves. occasion, will he take the opportunity to visit the reservoir and meet the interested parties and locally elected Question put and agreed to. representatives, as I challenged Mr Clarke to do during my earlier remarks? Bearing in mind what my hon. Friend has said, there will be people who will wish to 2.48 am take the opportunity to thank him for his interest. House adjourned.

1WH 6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 2WH

In 1969, the Provisional IRA was formed with the Westminster Hall aim of removing the British from Northern Ireland and bringing about the unification of Ireland by force. It Tuesday 6 July 2010 was doomed to fail, not because the Government stood up for the rights of our people, but because 1 million [MR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE in the Chair] ordinary British people in Northern Ireland determined to remain part of the United Kingdom and exercised their democratic right accordingly. Even though the Terrorism (Northern Ireland) terrorists tried to bomb us into submission, murdered Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting hundreds of police officers and soldiers, slaughtered be now adjourned.—(Mr Philip Dunne.) innocent civilians across the Province and tried to wipe out Protestant families along the border, they were 9.30 am never able to break our determination. I have often said Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): It is a that they may have broken our hearts—and they did—but pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, they shall never break our will. Mr Chope, but I must confess that this is the most difficult debate I have ever taken part in because I feel It must also be remembered that Ministers from the that I must turn the spotlight on the innocent victims of Fianna Fail governing party in the Irish Republic diverted terrorism and their broken-hearted families. funds intended as emergency aid, to illegally import A few days ago, the Prime Minister of this United weapons directly for the Provisional IRA. One of those Kingdom made his way to the Dispatch Box in the Ministers, Charles Haughey, was later rewarded by House of Commons and gave an apology to families in being made Prime Minister of the Irish Republic for Londonderry, which was watched by millions around three terms between 1979 and 1992. Surely it is time for the world. After his speech, many could hear the shouts an unreserved and unequivocal apology from the Prime and cheers from those in Guildhall square, Londonderry, Minister of the Irish Republic for the actions of a and the media spent countless hours of airtime propagating former Government who helped to spawn and support one single event in the history of our Province, just as if the IRA, thereby consigning Unionists in Northern nobody else had endured any injustice over the years of Ireland to over 30 years of bloody Sundays, Mondays, Ulster’s turmoil and trouble. Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays. Alas, that has not been forthcoming, and we shall have Outside Londonderry, many other families who have to wait, although for how long, I have no idea. suffered because of countless IRA atrocities simply sat in silence, many wiping away their tears, and feeling I wish to pay tribute to the bravery of our soldiers dejected and spurned by their own Government. I do who patrolled the highways of Ulster for many years, not doubt the sincerity of the Prime Minister in his many of whom paid the supreme sacrifice. Standing speech, nor do I doubt the significance that it held for alongside them, we were blessed by having many courageous those families in Londonderry. However, what about local volunteers who joined the B Specials, the Ulster the thousands of other innocent families, who grieve Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment, and daily for their sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, who gallantly provided protection for all our community brothers and sisters, because of years of Provisional from a vicious foe. IRA terror? I also salute the bravery of the Royal Ulster Constabulary No apology was ever given to the law-abiding Unionist George Cross Foundation, and the Royal Ulster majority, when successive Governments tied the hands Constabulary reserves for their years of faithful duty, of our security forces and allowed the IRA terror not forgetting the Police Service of Northern Ireland. campaign to continue for well over 30 years. The IRA All those forces have been vilified at some time or other claimed that it was at war with Britain, but unfortunately by the republican propaganda machine, but those of us only one side was fighting to win. Our gallant soldiers who have lived throughout the troubles know how the were—and are—the best in the world, but they were not B Specials, the UDR, the RUC GC and the RUCR GC allowed to fight. They could have crushed the terrorists, were politically sacrificed to appease republican agitation. but political expedience would not allow them to do so. I am not entering into a debate on the Saville report, Let me come to the heart of the debate. According to as that will come in its own time. However, I fear that research carried out by the university of Ulster, the successive Governments, through this £192 million inquiry Provisional IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,706 and the high-wire spectacular response from the Prime people during the troubles up to 2001. Of those, 497 Minister in front of the world’s media, have left the were civilian casualties, 183 were members of the Ulster feeling that there is a hierarchy of victims from our Defence Regiment, 455 came from other regiments of troubled past, and that brings only further division and the British Army, and 271 were members of the Royal misunderstanding. Ulster Constabulary. Of its victims, 340 were Northern Ireland Roman Catholics, 794 were Northern Ireland Over the years, I have wept and comforted many Protestants and 572 were not from Northern Ireland. families of innocent victims, and although I carry no open wounds on my body from the IRA campaign— That same research states that the IRA lost 276 although that was not the intention—there are many members during the troubles. However, in 132 of those deep wounds in my heart that no man, but only God, cases, IRA members either caused their own death, as a can heal. I honestly confess that I hate what the Provisional result of hunger strikes, premature bombing, accidents IRA has done to our beautiful Province and its people and so on, or were murdered due to allegations of through its acts of barbarity and murder. However, if having worked for the security forces. Those executions we allow hatred and bitterness to take over our lives, we killed more IRA members than any other organisation destroy ourselves and allow the enemy to succeed. during the course of the troubles. 3WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 4WH

[Dr William McCrea] Let us not forget the Claudy massacre of 31 July 1972—Bloody Monday. The roll needs to be called for The IRA was not fighting a just war, but through the nine people who were murdered by IRA terrorists: bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, punishment beatings Joseph McCloskey; Kathryn Eakin, eight; David Miller; of civilians, torture, extortion, robberies, racketeering James McLelland; William Temple—aged 16, he was in and so on, even to the extent of kidnapping the racehorse, his first job—Elizabeth McElhinney; Rose McLaughlin; Shergar, and attempting to ransom it, it forced successive Patrick Connolly, 15; and Arthur Hone. The terrorists British Governments into endless concessions. Having were no respecters of persons, but those people were all pocketed one concession after another, it got an insatiable innocent. At Tullyvallen Orange hall on 11 September desire for more, and the more it demanded, the more it 1975, five innocent people were murdered: William got. Meanwhile, the Unionist population was being McKee, farmer; James McKee, farmer; Nevin McConnell, castigated across the world for denying those poor livestock market manager; John Johnston, retired farmer, downtrodden fearful republicans their rights. This terrorist and William Herron. They were all innocent. organisation had a so-called army council, and on Can we forget the Kingsmills massacre, when 10 Protestant February 20, 2005, the then Irish Justice Minister, Michael construction workers were murdered on 5 January 1976? McDowell publicly named Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris Those men were taking their usual route home from a and Martin McGuinness as members of that council. textile factory in Glenanne when their bus was stopped Let me go back for a moment to the day that the at a bogus security checkpoint. The gunmen asked each Prime Minister spoke in the House about the happenings person on board the bus their religion. The driver of the in Londonderry. After his speech, the families of those minibus was a Roman Catholic. He was told to get out mentioned in the Saville report made their way to a of the way and run up the road. The remaining workmen platform in Guildhall square, Londonderry, and to the were lined up and shot down like dogs, with at least four cheers of the crowd, a member of each family read out different weapons, some of which were automatic. They the name of their loved one and shouted, “Innocent”. were Joseph Lemmon, Reginald Chapman, WalterChapman, The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) also read Kenneth Worton, James McWhirter, Robert Chambers, out those names for the record in the House of Commons. John McConville, John Bryans, Robert Freeburn and Let me therefore remind my colleagues at Westminster—and Robert Walker. One man was hit 18 times but miraculously put on the record some of the other names that were survived. He said that after they lined them up, it was all not read out—of those families simply feel forgotten over in a minute, and after the initial screams, there was and were left to suffer in silence. silence. Those workmen were all innocent. Those victims and families are worthy of justice but On 17 February 1978, 12 people were incinerated unfortunately the possibility of them getting it may be when the IRA left a firebomb at La Mon House hotel. small. What are the Government to do for them? Today, Three married couples were among the dead. More no world media outlet has any interest in spreading the than 400 people were packed into the hotel. Some were news of the deep hurt felt by the innocent victims of attending the dinner for the Irish collie club and some IRA terrorism around the world. No displays of one- were there for the Northern Ireland junior motorcycle upmanship or cheers of victory will resound across the club dinner. Those murdered that night were Thomas airwaves from this Chamber. However, I am going to Neeson, Dorothy Nelson, Gordon Crothers, Joan Crothers, honour and remember the innocent victims of Northern Ian McCracken, Elizabeth McCracken, Sandra Morris, Ireland. Sarah Wilson Cooper, Christine Lockhart, Carol Mills, Paul Nelson and Daniel Magill. They were out for a Who will ever forget the three Scottish soldiers lured dinner, and were innocent victims of IRA murder. to their deaths at Ligoniel in March 1971? They were On 27 August 1979, 18 people were murdered in the completely innocent. Let me recall the massacre of tragedy known as the Narrow Water bombing. That 22 February 1972 at Aldershot barracks. This is a list of was, I believe, the first time that the IRA used remotely the so-called trophies of IRA brutality: Gerry Weston, controlled bombs in Northern Ireland. The first bomb soldier and acting chaplain, the Parachute Regiment; that exploded killed six soldiers, and as the Wessex Jill Mansfield, civilian cleaner; Margaret Grant, civilian helicopter took off with injured soldiers, the provisionals cleaner; Thelma Bosley, civilian cleaner; Cherie Munton, detonated the second bomb from over the border, killing civilian cleaner; Joan Lunn, civilian cleaner; and John a dozen more soldiers. Let me give the roll of honour: Haslar, civilian gardener. They were all completely innocent. Lance Corporal MacLeod, 24; Lieutenant Colonel Blair, What of Bloody Friday—21 July 1972—when there 40; Corporal Andrew, 24; Private Barnes, 18; Private was a massacre of civilians in Belfast by Provisional Dunn, 20; Private Wood, 19; Private Woods, 18; Corporal IRA-Sinn Fein terrorists? More than 20 no-warning Giles, 22; Sergeant Rogers, 31; Warrant Officer Beard, bombs were detonated in a crowded Belfast city centre. 31; Private Vance, 23; Private England, 23; Private Nine were murdered and more than 100 innocent people Jones, 18; Corporal Jones, 26; Private Jones, 18; Lance going about their daily lives were injured. Brian Faulkner Corporal Ireland, 25; Officer Fursman, 35; and Private wrote in his memoirs: Blair, 23. All of them were innocent. “Few people will forget seeing on television young policemen On 21 January 1981, the Provisional IRA murdered a shovelling human remains into plastic bags in Oxford Street.” former Stormont Speaker, Sir Norman Stronge, and his Those who died were Robert Gibson, Ulsterbus driver son James. It bombed their historic ancestral home, and civilian; William Kenneth Crothers; William Irvine; Tynan abbey. Sir Norman was 86 years of age and his Thomas Killops; Stephen Cooper; Philip Price; Margaret son was 48. They were shot at point-blank range and O’Hare; Stephen Parker, 14; and Brigid Murray. They died instantly. Sir Norman and James were innocent. were all innocent, but of course that was only Bloody On 20 November 1983, the congregation of Darkley Friday—there was no apology to them. Pentecostal church were singing the hymn “Are you 5WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 6WH washed in the blood of the Lamb?” Unknown to them, bomber’s coffin at his funeral—I suppose that by their the Provisional IRA was to arrive at the church outside actions we will know them. The roll of honour that day Darkley with the intent to murder. Three elders of the was: John Desmond Frizell, Sharon McBride, George congregation were murdered and several others wounded. Williamson, Gillian Williamson, Evelyn Baird, Michelle Those murdered were William Harold Brown, John Baird, who was 7, Leanne Murray, who was 13, Michael Victor Cunningham and Richard Samuel David Wilson. Morrison and Wilma McKee. All of them were innocent. The killers calmly stepped over the bloodstained bodies When I came to the House many years ago, I brought and began firing at the defenceless congregation, mainly with me a wedding photograph. The family circle in it composed of women and children. Fathers dived over was well known to me; it was the Kerrigan family. The their young children—one over his seven-month-old photograph had four people in it: the bridegroom, the baby. As the people begged for mercy, the gunmen bride, the best man and the bridesmaid. Sadly, three of reloaded their weapons and sprayed the exterior of the those four people were murdered by the Provisional wooden hall before cowardly disappearing into the IRA. The groom, the best man and the bridesmaid were countryside and over the border for safe lodgings. Those all murdered by terrorists. victims were all innocent. I sat in my study pondering again the many individuals On 28 February 1985, the IRA launched a deadly who were murdered in our community. The UDR has mortar attack on Newry police station, and that night recorded a list for Magherafelt, where I live: Private the police lost the greatest number of personnel of any Callaghan, Captain McCausland, Private Sammy Porter, terrorist attack during the troubles. The roll of honour Private Hamilton, Captain Hood, Staff Sergeant Deacon, was Chief Inspector Alexander Donaldson, Geoffrey Captain Connelly, Private Stott, Private John Arrell, Campbell, John Thomas Dowd, Denis Anthony Price, Private McCutcheon, Staff Sergeant R. H. Lennox, Rosemary Elizabeth McGookin, Sean Brian McHenry, Private R. J. Scott, Captain Bond, Lieutenant-Colonel David Peter Topping, Paul Hillery McFerran and Ivy Speers, Lieutenant-Colonel McCaughey, Major Hill, Winifred Kelly. It is right to note that Alexander Private David McQuillan, Lieutenant-Colonel Cloete, Donaldson’s brother, Constable Samuel Donaldson, was Lieutenant Kerr, Captain Gordon, Lieutenant-Colonel one of the first police officers to be murdered by the Montgomery, Private Ritchie, Private Alan Clarke, IRA, in August 1970. Those officers were all innocent. Lieutenant-Colonel Brownie McKeown, Sergeant Boyd, Just before 11 am on 8 November 1987, a Provisional Sergeant Jamison and Private Boxall. IRA bomb exploded in the heart of Enniskillen during Then I thought of friends in my former constituency the annual Remembrance day service. Without warning, of Mid-Ulster, many of whom I walked among and the provos detonated that bomb, killing 11 people and whom I was happy to call friends: Albert Cooper; injuring 63. The victims were William Mullen, 72; Angus Winston Finlay; Ronald Finlay; Colin Carson; Edward Mullen, 70; Kitchener Johnson, 70; Jessie Johnson, 70; Gibson; John Eagleson; Jack Scott; Raymond McNickle; Wesley Armstrong, 62; Bertha Armstrong, 53; John Nigel McCollum; his brother, Reginald McCollum; Megaw, 68; Edward Armstrong, 52; Georgina Quinton, Mr Watters; Jim Gibson; Robert Glover; Trevor Harkness; 72; Marie Wilson, 20; and Samuel Gault, 49. All the Matt Boyd; David Sinnamon; Donnelly Hazelton; George dead, who had been standing at that memorial, were Elliott; Kenneth Johnston; John Proctor; David Shiels; civilians apart from one RUCR officer, and they were little Lesley Gordon, who was just 10 years of age and all innocent. who was murdered with her daddy; Wilbert Kennedy; The 17th of January 1992 would be a day I would Noel McCulloch; Leslie Dallas; Austin Nelson; Ernest never forget. I was in my home when the phone rang to Rankin; Robert McLernon; Rachel McLernon; and say that a van had exploded at Teebane, outside Cookstown. Derek Ferguson. The list goes on and on, but let the Construction workers were returning home from work House not forget that behind every one of those names, down the Omagh-Cookstown road when a roadside and those of many other innocent victims—I apologise bomb was detonated at the Teebane crossroads, leaving because time does not permit me to name them—there eight men dead and six others wounded. I identified the is a personal tragedy, a lifetime of heartache and tears. company whose workers travelled that road for the Every anniversary brings afresh the wrenching of the police, and I made my way to the awful scene of heart and the feeling that, for most, justice will never be carnage. I assisted the police at the scene, walking done. All that these people see are murderers walking among the dead and injured, and I did my best to free, with some even being exalted to high office, while comfort the bereaved. The victims were: William Gary they themselves wait for justice. Bleeks, Cecil James Caldwell, Robert Dunseith, David As a Christian minister, I know that the judge of all Harkness, John Richard McConnell, Nigel McKee, Robert the earth will one day call every man to account. For Irons and Oswald Gilchrist. They were all innocent. those who have not confessed and repented of their Every year, we hold a memorial service along the roadside sins, there is a hereafter of eternal woe. They will not at Teebane, come rain, hail or snow. escape the justice of God. What, however, will our Let me mention one other major slaughter of the Government do for the families of these innocent victims? innocent. On 23 October 1993, nine ordinary people on There are certain to be no expensive inquiries for them, the Shankill road were murdered. The provos walked and one can rightfully ask why there are such inquiries into Frizell’s fish shop dressed in white coats and looking only for some. I have heard it said that it is because the like delivery men. They carried a bomb that was to people in Londonderry were killed by British soldiers. deliver death and destruction seconds later. The timer However, unlike those involved in the killings that I gave the terrorists 11 seconds to escape, but it gave the have placed on the record, and in many others, the innocent shoppers no time. However, the bomb exploded soldiers in Londonderry did not set out to murder early, and the carrier of the bomb, Thomas Begley, died anyone; they did not seek to pick a fight with some in the explosion. Gerry Adams brazenly carried the innocent bystander. There was serious violence in 7WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 8WH

[Dr William McCrea] the roof of a nearby building. The reason we found it was because the seagulls were diving on to it. I’ve tried to put it to the back of Londonderry, with pandemonium and confusion across my mind for over 25 years.” the city. There were stones and bullets, and mayhem had The Government have spent £192 million to give broken out; panic was everywhere. However, the people certain families in Londonderry closure: or will it be I have mentioned were threatening and endangering no closure, when so many questions are left in the hearts of one. Many were in their own homes, coming home, others, unanswered? Why did our loved ones have to going to work or going to the shops. I have no doubt die? Why did successive Governments allow IRA terrorism that no films will be made about Teebane or La Mon, to go on for more than 30 years without determining to and few film stars will line up to expose the murdering defeat it, holding to a policy of containment rather than thugs of 30 years of republican terror. conquering? Why did a Minister in a previous Government state that there was, in Northern Ireland, an acceptable Some suggest that a truth inquiry should be enough level of violence? Why did it seem that, as long as the to satisfy my friends, but I simply ask what that will violence was kept off the streets of the mainland, the mean. Indeed, how could it be meaningful? When asked people of Northern Ireland would just have to accept it? about his terrorist past, Gerry Adams looks into the Why, in the midst of our turmoil, did a Prime Minister camera and brazenly denies that he has ever been in the state that his Government had no strategic interest in IRA. Martin McGuinness was exposed by the Saville Northern Ireland? Why did the lying propaganda of report, despite saying in his evidence to the inquiry: republicanism go unanswered across the world? Those “I wish to make it clear that I will not provide the Inquiry with involved were the perpetrators and the murderers of the the identities of other members of the IRA on 30th January 1972 innocent; yet the majority population were maligned. or confirm the roles played by such persons whose names are The republican movement sat in their pubs and clubs written down and shown to me…As a Republican I am simply not prepared to give such information.” around the world, romanticising their acts of barbarity against Britain, but there is nothing romantic about The same man had the audacity to welcome the report, butchering men, women and children. It is time for the pointing the finger at soldiers, while dismissing the books to be opened. It is time for the answers to be findings in regard to the part he was identified as having given. played in Londonderry with a sub-machine-gun. We, too, need closure. No one can understand the I conclude by reminding the House that many thousands nightmare that the people of Northern Ireland have of innocent people in our Province carry scars in body been through, terrorised in their kitchens and bedrooms, and mind that will go with them to the grave. Many are while walking the streets, as they sat in restaurants and the living dead, and some even pray for death itself. I hotels, or while worshipping in their churches; leaving had a mother in my constituency office the other day. their children in the morning and not knowing whether She was an elderly lady in her 80s, and she was weeping they would ever see each other again. We lived through over her 19-year-old son. It is many years since he was that. It was reality. We need the truth. We need justice murdered by the IRA, but her pain, like mine, is as real and no one can be too high or mighty to escape the today as ever. She asked what the Government will do reach of justice. What will our Government do to give it for her. She got £200 for her son. Where are the wheels to us? We have to wait and see. of justice turning? I read an article about the Saville report in The Times 10.03 am on 22 February 2002. A son of one of the cleaning David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I welcome you ladies in the incident at Aldershot said that although to the Chair, Mr. Chope and congratulate my hon. the 30th anniversary of Bloody Sunday had been marked Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) on by two films, media coverage and a renewed interest in securing the debate on such an important issue. We can the Saville inquiry that is investigating the killings in all agree that he spoke with passion and honesty about Londonderry, he and his three brothers would again the issue of victims, many of whom, of course, were have to remember their loss in silence. He said: murdered in his constituency and in his former constituency “I’m sickened by the fact that whenever Bloody Sunday is of Mid Ulster. All of us who have been elected to this mentioned there is never a mention of the atrocity at Aldershot House have lost many friends in the past years. which was committed in the IRA’s name.” We in Northern Ireland are under no illusions about He also said: the past. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim said, we lived through it. We suffered it, visited “There are so many films and documentaries about Bloody the homes and followed all the coffins. We embraced the Sunday, but the feeling is that we’re forgotten. Gerry Adams demanded an apology for Bloody Sunday and I remember thinking widows and the orphans, and in many cases we had ‘Where’s my apology?’” personal loss and heartache to carry while trying to build a better future for others. I have spoken in the past There is another comment, about the bombing of about the members of my extended family who were innocents in the city of Belfast. In 1997 an RUC officer murdered in such a cold, brutal and matter-of-fact way interviewed by BBC reporter Peter Taylor said: by terrorists. Those of us who were there during those “Youcould hear the people screaming and crying and moaning. dark years will carry the scars to our graves, but we are The first thing that caught my eye was a torso of a human being determined that the next generation will have a future lying in the middle of the street. It was recognisable as a torso better than the past we had. because the clothes had been blown off and you could see parts of human anatomy. One victim had his arms and legs blown off and We do not want the victims of that terrorist brutality some of his body had been blown through the railings. One of the to be left behind and under Government policy we run most horrendous memories for me was seeing a head stuck to a the risk of that very thing happening; we should not wall. A couple of days later we found vertebrae and a ribcage on allow that. There are two areas of concern in which I 9WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 10WH believe there is a danger of the Government falling into than terrorist organisations, and that a democratic the routine of previous Governments and making the Government should uphold and enforce the laws that same mistakes. The effect of that would certainly be have been passed. that those who bore the brunt of the troubles and of There have been long-standing allegations about the vicious sectarian terrorism would be left behind by the involvement of elements of the Dublin Government in Government. I appeal to the Minister in these early the setting up and arming of the Provisional IRA. If days of the Government to change direction and avoid true, we need to keep in mind what those allegations that state of affairs. would entail. If elements of the Dublin Government The two areas I want to draw to the Minister’s were involved in the formation and arming of the attention are related. The first is the process by which provos, it would mean that actions by elements of the historical cases are dealt with. As my hon. Friend the southern Government had led directly to the murder of Member for South Antrim mentioned, the Saville report UK citizens in places such as Warrington and London. was recently published; it cost in the region of £200 Those allegations, if true, would mean that elements million. It was essentially a no-expense-spared inquiry. I of the southern Government were implicated in the will not deny those families their moment, but I will IRA’s attempt to kill the entire UK Conservative highlight the injustice flowing from Saville that automatically Government at the Grand hotel in Brighton. It would falls upon the many thousands of others who have mean that elements of the Dublin Government were nothing. Very many of those victims and relatives have implicated in the attempt to kill the UK Cabinet when no answers and no prospect of any answers. In fact, the IRA fired mortars at No. 10 Downing street. It almost daily many people in Northern Ireland have would mean that elements of the Dublin Government insult added to injury, and must endure lies, which cover were implicated in the mortar bomb attack on Heathrow like a blanket the truth that everyone knows. airport. It would also mean that elements of the Dublin For example, Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams continues Government were implicated in the murder of many with the fiction that he was never a member of the very hundreds of UK citizens in Northern Ireland. If true, organisation that he was a leader of. How could people the allegations would help to explain why the extradition ever have confidence in any truth-finding commission of suspects from the Irish Republic was so difficult. It when, because of such denials of reality, it is guaranteed would also help to explain why people could organise that the truth is highly unlikely to emerge? The Government open collections for republican terrorist organisations could take a significant step in bringing Adams’s fictional in places such as Buncrana, Bundoran and Dundalk. account to an end. They could publish the full security It is a truly shameful thing that a succession of UK file on him and let everyone see for themselves just how Governments should have failed to press the Dublin much was known about his activities, including his Government to put an inquiry in place to investigate personal role in creating victims. His continued denial those allegations. A succession of UK Governments, of only stymies any attempt to take the historical context whatever colour, have turned a blind eye to the allegations; forward. never once did they put their own citizens first and The other thing that Saville has highlighted is the demand that the truth be told. In the early days of this great imbalance between the finances that have been new Government, I ask the Minister to have the resolve poured into it and funding levels associated with the to end that silence and to press Dublin for a full treatment of other victims of the troubles and the independent public inquiry into those long-standing handling of other historical cases. Clearly there is a allegations. need, even in financially straitened times, for the I made a similar call in the Belfast News Letter a Government to do everything possible in that regard. couple of weeks ago, and I was contacted by a number The second general area of concern that I wish to of victims of the troubles from different parts of Northern raise today is not about already existing processes. Ireland. They all said that they agreed with me, making Rather, it is about those areas relating to the troubles, it very clear that this culture of silence needs to be and to the victims and survivors of the troubles, for brought to an end by our Government. I take the which at present there is simply no process in place. opportunity to ask the Minister if he will agree to meet Recently the Northern Ireland victims commission argued the victims of the troubles and to hear their call for such for the establishment of some sort of truth-finding an inquiry; and I ask for Government support for an forum. We also have the recommendations of the Eames- inquiry. Bradley consultative group on the past. I know that other colleagues will wish to speak on On the question of a comprehensive truth forum, other matters relating to the victims of the troubles. I do given that one of the IRA’s main godfathers is in denial not want to take up any more time. I simply ask the about his role, does the Minister agree that Unionists Minister to remember that it is the first duty of Government are justified in thinking that it would be a waste of to safeguard the country’s citizens. time? On the Eames-Bradley proposals, the then Secretary I am sure that this newly formed coalition will have of State agreed that the so-called recognition payment got to grips with the security situation in Northern was unjustifiable. Will the Minister tell us his view on Ireland, and I am sure that they will agree that there are the granting of legitimacy to cold-blooded sectarian matters of concern. However, we have a problem in terrorists? Northern Ireland today with the so-called dissident That brings me on to the final matter that I wish to republicans. I referred to them a while back, saying that raise under this general heading. Those who campaigned I saw no difference between them and the provos because for the Saville inquiry did so in large part because they they were all pigs out of the same litter. I was rounded thought that the involvement of the state set it apart—in on by many in the press for saying so, because it was other words, the Government were up to their neck in it. thought unsuitable for someone who sits in this grand It was argued that the state should have higher standards House to use such language, but I repeat it: they are pigs 11WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 12WH

[David Simpson] The other issue is one of recognition of the sacrifice that people have made. I include here those members of out of the same litter. I ask the Government not to the security forces who gave their lives or sustained allow these so-called dissidents to get the same hold serious injury in the service of our country; and the over Northern Ireland as the provos did when causing armed forces, the Army in particular, who served in the mayhem, disaster and tragedies that my hon. Friend Northern Ireland. I was proud to serve in the locally outlined. recruited Ulster Defence Regiment, which provided support to the police in Northern Ireland. I know that there are 10.16 am hon. and gallant Members present who have served Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I with the armed forces in Northern Ireland, and we apologise for not being here to listen to the remarks of recognise their contribution and sacrifice. One of my my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr saddest moments as a Member of Parliament was attending McCrea). I congratulate him on securing this debate, the final ceremony for the disbandment of the Home which is on an important topic. Indeed, it is an emotive Service battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment. Her topic, as we saw recently with the publication of the Majesty the Queen presented them with the Conspicuous Saville report into the events of 1972 in Londonderry. Gallantry Cross in recognition of the huge sacrifice that That was preceded by the publication of the Eames-Bradley they and the Ulster Defence Regiment before them report, which examined how we might deal with the made during the period of the troubles. legacy of the past. The Royal Ulster Constabulary was awarded the There is no doubt that we have no consensus in George Cross in recognition of its gallantry and sacrifice. Northern Ireland—no political consensus and none Hundreds of police officers lost their lives in the course among the people of Northern Ireland—on how we of the troubles. Indeed my own family was affected, as should deal with that legacy. There is no consensus on were many families, in that way. My cousin, Constable how we should come to terms with what has happened; Samuel Donaldson, along with Constable Roy Miller on how to deal with matters such as justice for those was the first RUC officers to be murdered by the who have not yet had the people responsible for the Provisional IRA. It happened on 12 August 1970 at murder of loved ones brought to justice; on how to deal Crossmaglen, which later became synonymous with the with the continuing hurt, pain and grief and, in many activities of the IRA. That was unfortunate because cases, the injuries and disabilities sustained as a result of many good people live in Crossmaglen. After the murder terrorist violence. Those are big issues, and I know that of my cousin, my family received hundreds of cards and the Northern Ireland Executive, and particularly the letters of sympathy from the community in Crossmaglen, First Minister and Deputy First Minister, have been which was horrified by the murder of these two young seeking to come to terms with them and to provide a police officers. The officers, who were serving and protecting greater level of support for the victims in Northern the community, were cut down in cold blood by the Ireland. Provisional IRA. I highlight the fact that over the past three years, the Sadly, from those two deaths followed many, many Northern Ireland Administration has set aside a substantial others during the troubles as the RUC stood in the gap amount of money—more than £30 million—to provide between terrorism on the one hand and the community practical help and support for the victims of violence in on the other. I say without fear of contradiction that Northern Ireland. That is welcome, but in many respects both the Army and the police, who sought to serve and it merely touches the surface. Looking beyond it, we see protect the people of Northern Ireland, placed themselves that a multiplicity of problems needs to be addressed. in the firing line. It is unfortunate that there are some Indeed, I am aware that the Northern Ireland Executive who seek to mark out the legacy of the Army and police is beginning the task of engaging in a comprehensive in Northern Ireland by way of controversy. We saw that needs assessment. It will seek to engage with all victims, with the Saville report. On the day that the report was to consider their needs and hopefully to design and put published, the Prime Minister told the Commons that in place practical support for them, including victims the events were not the legacy of the Army in Northern with injuries. Indeed, evidence suggests that victims Ireland, any more than the so-called shoot-to-kill events who suffered injuries during the troubles in Northern were the legacy of the RUC in Northern Ireland. The Ireland feel much neglected. A group has been formed police and the Army acted in a professional way; they that is pressing for greater recognition of those thousands put their lives on the line and sought to protect the of people who suffered serious injury and trauma during community. Had they not done that, Northern Ireland the troubles—and they are worthy of that recognition. would have slipped over the edge into all-out civil war. We also have the legacy of more than 3,000 unsolved There would have been anarchy and thousands more murders in Northern Ireland, which needs to be addressed. would have lost their lives as a result of the terrorist The Historical Enquiries Team faces the difficult and violence. challenging task of examining and re-examining historical cases of murder in Northern Ireland. I have worked We must recognise this legacy and seek to find ways with a number of families who have been engaged with in which to deal with it. As my hon. Friend the Member the Historical Enquiries Team, and found that it can be for Upper Bann (David Simpson) said, it is a matter a painful process. Very often, they learn things about not just for this Government, the Northern Ireland what happened to their loved ones that they perhaps Administration and the people of Northern Ireland, were not aware of before. Such investigations can reopen but the Irish Government. The Provisional IRA and old wounds, but sadly, in most cases, they do not often other terrorist organisations used the territory of the lead to convictions. Although the team has had some Irish Republic from which to launch attacks on Northern recent successes, there is a legacy of people feeling that Ireland. I have been involved in working with some of they have not had justice. the families in the Smithwick inquiry, which is examining 13WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 14WH the events surrounding the murder of the two most In conclusion, as I said at the beginning of my speech senior police officers in Northern Ireland during the this is a very emotive issue. We recognise that it is an course of the troubles. That inquiry, which is ongoing issue that must be tackled in Northern Ireland, but it and will begin its public sessions in the autumn, involves must be tackled sensitively. What we will not countenance the Irish Government. There are allegations of collusion is the type of “all-singing, all-dancing” commission that between members of the Garda Siochana—the Irish was proposed by Eames-Bradley. We do not believe that police—and members of the Provisional IRA in the that is the way forward. I support my colleagues in their murder of chief superintendent Harry Breen and contention that the HET should take the lead in superintendent Bob Buchanan. They were brutally investigating unsolved murders; we want to see it take murdered on their way home from a joint meeting with the lead. We want to see adequate resources made their Garda counterparts at Dundalk police station. available for the HET. We want to see greater recognition Such issues must be addressed. What we cannot have, of the suffering of the victims. That means looking at and what we will not countenance, is a one-sided process their needs and providing them with the support that that constantly puts the Army and the police in the they need—both the practical support and indeed the dock and ignores the terrorists. Let me be clear, I refer financial support that many of them need, as a result of here to so-called loyalist paramilitaries as well. Their losing in very many cases the main breadwinner in a actions must be examined and they must be held to family. account for what they did. We are not prepared to see Mr Chope, I welcome the opportunity to participate millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money being spent on in this debate and I thank you. investigating the activities of the police and the Army while minimal attention is paid to the paramilitaries. 10.30 am We support the work of the Historical Enquiries Team, but it needs to be properly resourced and given Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): It the authority that is required to pursue such investigations. is good to see you in the Chair this morning, Mr Chope. We have concerns about further costly inquiries, which I want to begin by congratulating the hon. Member is why we believe that HET represents the best way for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) on securing this debate forward, but it needs to be properly supported and and indeed I thank him for doing so. At the outset, he resourced so that it can investigate unsolved crimes and described it as the most difficult debate in which he had murders that occurred in the course of the troubles. We ever spoken at Westminster, but he spoke eloquently want to see justice for the victims. They are as entitled and very movingly, not least about the difficult emotions to justice and truth as the people of Londonderry are in that he faced on 15 June when the Saville report was respect of the events arising from the Saville report. We published. We all remember that day, and the measured, cannot have a hierarchy of victims in which a small sympathetic and unequivocal terms in which the Prime number of people get priority and precedence and Minister spoke; I welcomed that approach very warmly millions of pounds for inquiries to investigate murders. indeed. We also remember that my hon. Friend the Thousands of others do not have the same recognition Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who is with us this and support. They often feel that their loved ones have morning, read out with great emotion the names of his been forgotten and that the events surrounding their constituents who were exonerated by the Saville report. murders have been pushed to one side. That must not be Furthermore, I remember, as others will, the very allowed to happen. moving statement from the hon. Member for South I know that my hon. Friends have outlined some of Antrim on 15 June, when he spoke about the civilian the atrocities that are deserving of further inquiry, and construction workers who were murdered in Teebane in they include incidents where there is evidence either of 1992. He also spoke about his cousin Derek, who collusion on the part of Irish state authorities or where was murdered in 1991, and about his cousins Robert the Irish Government turned a blind eye and allowed and Rachel, who were murdered in 1976. He asked on their territory to be used by the Provisional IRA. I can 15 June: think of one particular incident and it is relevant to the “How do we get justice, and how do we get the truth?”—[Official issue of the Saville inquiry because it involved the Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 755.] murder of many members of the Parachute Regiment He has asked those same questions again this morning, at a place called Narrow Water, at Warrenpoint in and he has reminded us that often the victims are not South Down in Northern Ireland. There were 18 soldiers high-profile; they are often lonely and isolated, and murdered that day. Incidentally, it was the same day they often go unheeded. I think that it was important that Earl Mountbatten was murdered by the Provisional that he read out and put on the record some of the IRA. In the follow-up investigation to the events of names of those forgotten victims of the troubles of Narrow Water, two members of the Provisional IRA Northern Ireland. were identified as potentially having been involved in I feel that we must tread very carefully in this territory, that atrocity. The RUC tried to co-operate with the particularly those of us who are not from Northern Garda in bringing those two men to justice, but its Ireland. We must approach a debate such as this one efforts were thwarted. Every legal block was put in the with great humility and with real respect for the unresolved way of the police investigation. emotions and feelings of anger, injustice, grief and I believe that there are issues there that need to be sadness, which in many cases will simply never go away, addressed by the Irish Government. Why, in those days, certainly not in this life. did the Royal Ulster Constabulary not receive the We have much to celebrate today about Northern co-operation that it deserved to receive from the Irish Ireland and the progress that has been made. The tragic police and from the Irish legal authorities? Those are pictures graphically painted by the hon. Member for issues that we need to examine. South Antrim are, in a very real sense, a thing of the 15WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 16WH

[Paul Goggins] update on the progress of those outstanding historic inquests and if he can tell us whether the newly appointed past—we have moved on. Right hon. Members and Attorney-General has yet exercised his powers to reopen hon. Members in Westminster Hall today have played a inquests in certain cases. If the Attorney-General has great part in that, along with others, by taking us exercised those decision-making powers, how many inquests through the peace process and the political progress have been reopened? If any have been reopened, what is that has happened as a result of the Good Friday the cost and who will bear it? agreement, the St Andrews agreement and, most recently, A further way of dealing with tragedies in the past the Hillsborough Castle agreement. has been through the Historical Enquiries Team, which As the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley we heard about from a number of right hon. and hon. (Mr Donaldson) reminded us, today we must of course Members. It was established in 2005 to review all the recognise the tremendous work that has been done in deaths attributed to the conflict between 1969 and providing practical support to victims in Northern Ireland 1998—3,268 deaths in all. I want to place on record my over the years. That work has been funded by Government appreciation to the former Chief Constable of the Police in some respects but it has also been helped by voluntary Service of Northern Ireland, Sir Hugh Orde, who organisations too. However, we come back to the fact established and pursued this very innovative approach that there is still much to do in relation to the past; there to trying to deal with the unresolved deaths of the past. is still much that faces us in the search for closure, to I believe that he should be given great credit for that and which the hon. Member for South Antrim referred. I hope that the whole House will join me in expressing Of course, one way of trying to achieve that closure is that view. holding public inquiries, and we have heard much about The Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe the Saville inquiry. I was pleased that on 15 June, the described the HET as playing an important role in Prime Minister insisted on focusing on the substance of bringing “a measure of resolution” to those affected. the Saville report, rather than on controversial issues The HET enables the state to meet its obligations under about the length of time taken to conduct the inquiry article 2 of the European convention on human rights, and its cost. I hope that the report will enable the but more importantly it offers information and explanations families involved and the wider community to move on, to families who are still grief-stricken and bewildered as we all wish to see. years after the murder of their loved ones. There are other public inquiries, of course. Will the In his statement to the House on the Saville inquiry, Minister, in his summing up, tell us what progress he the Prime Minister made much of the work of the HET. can report in relation into the Robert Hammill inquiry, However, the £34 million of additional funding that the the Rosemary Nelson inquiry and the Billy Wright previous Government made available for the HET runs inquiry? All of the reports from those inquiries need to out next March. Will the Minister tell us whether he has be published. Can he tell us what arrangements he is had any discussions with the Northern Ireland Justice putting in place for doing so? For example, will they be Minister, David Ford, about the future funding of the the subject of statements to the House? HET? This is a very pressing issue, because with pressure Another issue arising from the negotiations at Weston on policing budgets and—who knows?—even greater Park in 2001 is the question of a public inquiry into the pressure after the comprehensive spending review the death of Pat Finucane. I know of and fully respect the problem will become even more acute in Northern desire of the Secretary of State not to rush to judgment Ireland: every pound that is spent on policing the past is on that issue; he wants to meet the family first and have a pound that is not spent on policing the present. a discussion with them. Nevertheless, can the Minister Indeed, we were reminded in this morning’s debate of give us some sense of the time scale involved in relation the importance of some issues facing Northern Ireland to that issue and about the discussions that the Secretary and the importance of putting resources into dealing of State wishes to have? with the challenges that remain. I therefore wonder if There are other cases where there are campaigns for the Minister can enlighten us on any discussions that he public inquiries, but no such inquiry is promised. One has had with the Northern Ireland Justice Minister of those campaign is being pursued by the families of about the future funding of the HET. 11 people who lost their lives in the Ballymurphy area in Individual investigation alone, through public inquiries, August 1971, and the Minister was pressed on that issue inquests and the HET, cannot provide deeper answers last week. Can he tell us what consideration he has in the search for truth and reconciliation, which require given to that particular campaign, and whether or not a wider process that engages the whole of Northern he or the Secretary of State will meet representatives of Ireland society. In my view, Robin Eames, Denis Bradley the families in the near future? and their colleagues in the Consultative Group on the Another way of trying to examine the events of the Past deserve great credit for beginning the process at past is by holding inquests, which we sometimes fail to least of searching for that truth. They said that dealing remember are a very important form of public inquiry. with the past is a process, not an event, and I agree. Before the devolution of policing and justice powers in Although their conclusions may be imperfect and subject Northern Ireland, there were about 20 outstanding to criticism across Northern Ireland for many different historic inquests. Many of them have been delayed reasons, they are at least a start. The report reflects because of legal challenges and because they were subject considerable work and many public meetings and to judgments by the European Court of Human Rights. submissions. Although the coronial system in Northern Ireland is I welcome the confirmation last Wednesday that the devolved, the Minister will retain a significant interest Government intend to publish a summary of the responses in many of these inquests, because of the national to the previous Government’s consultation on their security issues involved. I wonder if he can give us an proposals. It is easy to understand why proposals for a 17WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 18WH

£12,000 recognition payment were rejected out of hand the roles and responsibilities of the devolved Executive universally, but it is more difficult to begin to tease out in Northern Ireland? Only last week, the Commission what is required for genuine reconciliation. for Victims and Survivors laid at the door of central Eames and Bradley say that two ingredients are essential Government in London and Dublin the responsibility to the search for reconciliation: forgiveness and truth. for taking matters forward, yet on the very same day, Those words are easy to say, but much harder to pursue the Secretary of State said that in practice. It is hard, if not impossible, for some people “we cannot impose. It is up to people in Northern Ireland to work to forgive. Some, of course, are not yet seeking forgiveness together to decide a strategy going forward.”—[Official Report, because they still do not regard what they did as wrong. 30 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 848.] The search for truth is problematic because people have I contend that there are responsibilities on all sides. We different versions of the truth, and some—although I cannot simply abrogate our responsibilities to somebody am not one of them—would argue that we will never else. Central Government have responsibilities, just like get at the truth fully while the possibility of prosecution the Executive. remains, and that the search for truth requires the I end, as I began, by paying tribute to the hon. removal of that possibility.The experience of the Northern Member for South Antrim for reminding the House of Ireland (Offences) Bill demonstrates that although the the forgotten victims of the conflict in Northern Ireland. people and politicians of Northern Ireland may be Their memory should reinvigorate and spur on our prepared to speed up the process of justice using early search for the truth and for reconciliation. release from prison and so on, they are not prepared to circumvent it altogether. Eames and Bradley point to many interesting and 10.45 am important initiatives such as healing through remembering, storytelling and days of recollection. In my personal The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo view, there is much to be gained by working with Swire): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Churches, voluntary organisations and trained volunteers Mr Chope. I congratulate the hon. Member for South in quieter and less high-profile ways to take people Antrim (Dr McCrea) on securing this debate. No one through the healing process, hopefully releasing them can have failed to be moved by what he said. I acknowledge from the grip of some of their terrible memories as the loss that he has suffered with the murder of members everybody tries to face the future. It will not be a perfect of his family, and the horrible scenes to which he has reconciliation. The hon. Member for South Antrim borne witness. My sympathy and, I am sure, the sympathy made the point that in the end, there are some people of the whole House, is with him. whom perhaps only God can heal. However, we must In the time left to me, I will try to answer all the try. We must use Eames-Bradley and other initiatives as questions that right hon. and hon. Members have asked a stepping stone to move forward and face the issues. me. I recognise and empathise with the suffering of all On dealing with the past, I would like to ask the victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland. The list of Minister about the independent commission for the innocent victims read out was a salutary reminder of location of victims’ remains. Great credit is due to the horrors and injustices of the past. What struck me Kenneth Bloomfield and Frank Murray for the way in more than almost anything else is how many of them which they have led that initiative. It is traumatic not were young and were cut off before they reached adulthood. only to lose a loved one but never to be able to find their As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in body because it is buried who knows where. The commission his statement to the House on 15 June, we should never has taken on the heroic task of helping families by forget that the overwhelming majority of those who lost uncovering such information. It has had some success, their lives in Northern Ireland—some estimate nearly but what assessment has the Minister made of the 90%—were killed by terrorists. The brutal terrorist commission’s work, and what future does he believe it campaigns waged by republican and loyalist paramilitaries has? caused enormous suffering, whose lasting impact I do I shall conclude by pressing the Minister on two not forget, but I remain firmly of the view that there issues that I believe are important now. First, what is the was and is no justification for politically motivated new coalition Government’s attitude on the holding of violence. I want to make it clear that the Government public inquiries? In his statement on the Saville inquiry, absolutely condemn the terrorist crimes that have been the Prime Minister said that committed. “there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries into the The hon. Member for South Antrim raised a number past.”—[Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 741.] of important points about Government policy in relation However, in answer to questions on the statement, he to victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland. He is right said that to emphasise the importance of addressing victims’ “we should look at each case on its merits”.—[Official Report, continuing needs. As a UK Minister, I am mindful of 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 744.] the need to recognise that a number of important Those statements are clearly contradictory. Those powers relating to victims’ issues have been devolved to considering future inquiries as a way of resolving the the Northern Ireland Assembly. Our considered response problems of the past—whether a Finucane inquiry or to the Bloody Sunday inquiry report demonstrates the inquiry demanded by the families of the Ballymurphy that, for our part, the Government take seriously our victims—will need to know where they stand. It is responsibilities on the past, but I am firmly of the view important that we understand clearly and as soon as that dealing with the past cannot be a matter for the possible what the Government’s approach is. UK Government alone. As the victims commissioners Secondly, what does the Minister understand to be said, an effective approach to the past will be based on the role and responsibility of central Government alongside political and civic consensus. 19WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland)6 JULY 2010 Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 20WH

[Mr Hugo Swire] last November—the comprehensive needs assessment being undertaken by the victims’ commission, and the To answer the question asked by the shadow Minister, plan to introduce a new victims and survivors service the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East next year. I am very much aware of the role played by (Paul Goggins), about the Government’s approach to voluntary and community groups on the ground in future inquiries, I can only concur with Justice Minister Northern Ireland. As I am sure we would all agree, their David Ford, who said: work in supporting victims and promoting reconciliation “We cannot have a Saville-type inquiry for all the tragedies of is crucial. I agree with the victims’ commissioner’s view the past, but the fundamental matter of dealing with the past is that we must build “from the ground up”when considering something which has to be dealt with collectively by the Executive.” how best to deal with the past in Northern Ireland. The shadow Minister also compared the Bloody Sunday A number of issues raised by the hon. Member for inquiry to cases involving other victims. To respond to South Antrim relate to the broader question of how the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), best to deal with the past in Northern Ireland. I reiterate the Prime Minister made it clear in his speech at La my view that there is no question of the Government Mon House during the general election campaign, and imposing solutions on Northern Ireland. My right hon. again in his statement on Saville, that no Government Friend the Secretary of State and I intend to listen to he leads will ever put those who uphold democracy and the views of people from across the community on the rule of law on an equivalent footing with those who dealing with the past in Northern Ireland. That listening have sought to destroy it. We will also not be party to a process will be important in helping to determine the rewrite of history that seeks to give a spurious legitimacy role that the UK Government can play. to terrorist campaigns on all sides. I am clear that the I also want to reassure the hon. Gentleman that the state must be determined to judge itself against the Secretary of State and I intend to meet victims and highest standards. In relation to the Bloody Sunday groups from both sides of the community to listen to inquiry report, the Prime Minister demonstrated how their views. He has specifically raised a number of cases that had to be true and how the state’s standards had to involving murders committed by republican terrorists. I be higher than those elsewhere. It is important that the fully recognise that the memories of those atrocities Government continue to emphasise the crucial distinction remain raw for many people in his community. I reassure between the state’s response to wrongdoing, and the him that I agree with the point made by the victims’ actions and responses of terrorists. commissioners that the past cannot be dealt with in a The hon. Member for South Antrim is, of course, way that holds only the state accountable. The right to note that the public inquiries that are under way commissioners have identified a number of cases that have proved very costly. The Government are clear that they note retain iconic significance for the Unionist there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries. community. I recognise that that is an important point, However, our views on the process followed for such and I stress to the hon. Gentleman that the Government inquiries should not detract from the need to consider will approach the legacy of the past in a measured and the substance of their reports when they are published. impartial manner. It is important that any approach to The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley and the the past does not seek to favour, or is not perceived as hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) raised favouring, any particular section of the community. the work of the Historical Enquiries Team. The The hon. Member for Upper Bann raised a specific Government have been strongly supportive of HET, question about the past role of the Irish Government. It which is investigating 3,261 deaths in the period 1968 to is of course for the Irish Government to respond directly 1998, including deaths from all sides of the community. to specific allegations relating to their past role. However, I understand that HET has completed 782 reviews I recognise the importance of involving the Irish relating to cases involving 1,007 victims. Government in discussions on how best to deal with the The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley and the legacy of the past. The hon. Gentleman will want to shadow Minister raised the issue of funding for HET. know that the Secretary of State has already had a They will know that responsibility for directly funding series of meetings with the Irish Government, and that I HET now lies with the devolved Administration. However, will be travelling there shortly. In the Taoiseach’s statement the Government have made a substantial financial package to the Dail last week, he noted that the Irish Government available to the Northern Ireland Executive to deal with would continue to work with the UK Government and these issues. Despite the pressure on finances, we have the Northern Ireland Executive on contributing to the honoured the commitments we gave in opposition on healing process in Northern Ireland. I welcome that the matter. The Government have not directly specified— commitment. nor should they—that the Executive should make funds Before I conclude, I shall address some of the points available to HET or, indeed, to the police ombudsman. raised during the debate. The shadow Minister, the right That is properly a matter for the Justice Minister and hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East, asked the Executive to decide on. However, the financial package for an update on progress with the Wright, Nelson and that the Government have provided enables the Justice Hamill inquiries. We expect all those inquiries to publish Minister and the Executive, despite the huge pressure their findings by the end of this year, and my right hon. on the public finances, to continue to ensure that such Friend the Secretary of State will today lay a written important work has the funding it requires. statement on the pre-publication process for the Billy On addressing the needs of victims more generally, I Wright inquiry report. Other inquiries will follow a welcome the work being done by the First and Deputy similar process, with a written ministerial statement. First Ministers, the victims’ commissioners and the The right hon. Gentleman also asked whether the victims’ forum. Some positive steps in the right direction Attorney-General had reopened any inquests and what include the strategy for victims and survivors—published their costs will be. He will understand that in Northern 21WH Terrorism (Northern Ireland) 6 JULY 2010 22WH

Ireland, the new Attorney-General has exercised his DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) powers in that regard. With devolution of justice powers, issues such as the cost of specific inquests should now be addressed to the Justice Minister, David Ford. The 11 am right hon. Gentleman also asked about the Finucane Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve inquiry, and I can tell him that my right hon. Friend the under your chairmanship, Mr Chope, and I hope that Secretary of State has written to the family and offered you will pass my thanks to Mr Speaker for granting the to meet them. I know he is very keen for that meeting to debate. It is a welcome opportunity because the debate take place as soon as is practicable. On Ballymurphy, on the effectiveness of DNA and CCTV in tackling again, the Secretary of State has met the Ballymurphy crime has, up to press, been rather sterile. It has been families and intends to do so again in the very near characterised as a debate between those who claim to future. believe in civil liberties and those who are seen as The hon. Member for Upper Bann raised the issue of authoritarian; if one believes in the use of DNA and the security file and Gerry Adams. Regarding the CCTV,one is automatically regarded as an authoritarian, publication of any security information held by the and if one does not believe in their use, one must believe Government, he will know that it has been the long-standing in civil liberties. I do not accept that rather simplistic policy of successive Governments never to comment on premise. Today I want to make the pro-freedom case for security matters. The hon. Gentleman asked me to meet CCTV and DNA. the victims, and I would of course be happy to meet him I am a Conservative because I believe in freedom, and and any of the victims he mentioned in his speech. My I am also proud to be a member of an excellent organisation right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already met called the Freedom Association. The last Government many victims’ groups and will continue to do so. were one of the most authoritarian, intolerant and Today’s debate has been on the Government’s policy illiberal Governments that the country has ever seen, so on the victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland, and in I certainly do not support some of the measures they the time available to me I have tried to show that we do introduced. I consider measures such as identity cards not believe that it is just for the UK Government to and the ability to lock people up without charge, potentially impose such a policy on the people of Northern Ireland. for 90 days, to be authoritarian If it is to succeed, it must be done in co-operation with The police asking to see one’s papers is something the Northern Ireland Executive and, at times, the Irish one would expect to see in an authoritarian state; that Government. However, crucially, such a policy can provide would impinge on my individual freedom. However, some of the answers to the questions we have discussed CCTV cameras being installed on a particular street this morning only if it is done by the people of Northern and forensic laboratories holding my DNA do not in Ireland—the people who have suffered in the ways we any way impinge on my freedoms, because they do not have heard about this morning. I was particularly struck stop me doing anything that I would otherwise want to by what the hon. Member for Upper Bann said about do or going about my daily lawful business. We need to wanting our children to have a better future than their distinguish between those measures that impinge on parents did. I can think of no better way to end the people’s freedoms and those that do not. debate than with a note of cautious optimism. With The coalition Government have pledged to regulate devolution now working in Northern Ireland, we can CCTV and remove from the DNA database the profiles all—those of us who have responsibility—work together of individuals who are not successfully prosecuted after to make Northern Ireland a better place in the future. three years. I believe that the first duty of any Government is to protect the public; it is for that reason that I believe we need, if anything, more CCTV cameras and more people on the DNA database, rather than fewer. Some might argue that that would be an infringement of people’s civil liberties, but I do not know what that term really means. “Civil liberties” is one of those terms bandied about that we are all supposed to believe in because they sound good, such as sustainable development, but no one really knows what they mean. We all believe in social justice, but no one really knows what it means. I am sure that we all believe in civil liberties, but we do not know what the term means. In fact, the definition of civil liberties states: “They are given to treat all the people equally under the law and make them enjoy rights of speech, protection, enjoyment and liberty.” It seems to me that the word “protection” is often missed out when people quote about civil liberties. I believe that one of my civil liberties is to walk down the street safely without being the victim of a serious crime. If DNA and CCTV means that more rapists, murderers and muggers are in prison, that enhances my freedoms rather than diminishing them. I want to be clear from the outset that I am not in favour of the overuse and abuse of CCTV cameras. I do not agree, for example, with local authorities putting 23WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 24WH

[Philip Davies] but effective in reducing crime in the real world. An initiative in my constituency in west Yorkshire set up a cameras into people’s bins to see what kind of rubbish CCTV camera, which cost only a few thousand pounds, they throw out, which is ludicrous. I am talking about and Crimestoppers has stated that the number of arrests using CCTV as a crime-fighting measure for identifying and charges has increased by 40% as a result, so its and prosecuting criminals. There are many reasons for cost-effectiveness has been proved beyond doubt. further regulating CCTV; it has been suggested that the As the hon. Lady pointed out, CCTV is a valuable images are often of poor quality, that the cameras are tool not only for the police, but for the courts. It is an costly to install and run and that they can be used for invaluable tool on two levels: for convicting the perpetrators underhand purposes. I want to tackle all those concerns. of crimes; and for acquitting those who have not committed We should not, however, be provoked into a knee-jerk a crime. CCTV footage provides conclusive and unbiased reaction and, as a result, remove cameras, reduce their evidence, void of anyone’s spin or mistaken recollection. numbers or over-regulate their use, which would make When viewed by defendants and their solicitors, footage them worthless. CCTV images are now often of high often leads to a change of plea, from not guilty to quality and have good time frames, and many pictures guilty.That invariably happens in cases in which defendants are now in colour. It is possible to see things from were drunk or on drugs when they committed an offence different angles using footage taken from different cameras. and could not recall it. That not only saves the courts A Scotland Yard study into the effectiveness of time and money, as the hon. Lady suggested, but prevents surveillance cameras revealed that almost every Scotland witnesses having to give evidence in court, which is Yard murder inquiry uses CCTV footage as evidence. In often a stressful and unpleasant experience. CCTV 90 murder cases over one year, CCTV footage was used prevented Richard Whelan’s girlfriend from having to in 86 of the investigations, and senior officers said that testify against his murdered, Anthony Joseph, who brutally it helped in of the 65 cases by capturing the murderer stabbed Richard on a bus when he was attempting to on film or the movements of suspects before or after an defend her. That attack was caught on camera and attack. Scotland Yard’s head of homicide, Simon Foy, Joseph, a paranoid schizophrenic, was jailed. said: Equally, CCTV can prove that someone has been “CCTV plays a huge role in helping us investigate serious crime. I hope people can understand how important it is to our wrongly accused of committing a crime, as was the case success in catching people who commit murder.” with Edmund Taylor, who was convicted of dangerous driving. His conviction was quashed on appeal, when In many areas, CCTV is watched live by monitoring CCTV footage showed that a white man had committed teams who can call the police to the scene of a crime. the offence—Mr Taylor was black. Similarly, Garry Wood was cleared of raping Natalie Jefferson after Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): police studied CCTV footage of his movements on the Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me that CCTV night of the rape and realised that he had not committed evidence has had a big impact in reducing the number the crime. of contested prosecutions and, therefore, the cost to the criminal justice system? I want to touch on the automatic number plate recognition scheme because it was through its use, and Philip Davies: The hon. Lady is absolutely right and that alone, that the murderers of PC Sharon Beshenivsky has pre-empted what I was about to say. In this age of were caught. Without an ANPR system around Bradford, austerity, we should be trying to find ways of reducing those people would never have been brought to justice. the cost of the criminal justice system, and as she On 18 November 2005, PC Beshenivsky was shot and rightly noted, CCTV is a key way of doing that. killed during a robbery in Bradford. The CCTV network was linked in to an ANPR system and was able to Unless millions of police officers are stationed on identify the getaway car and track its movements. Because every street corner, in every park and on every road, of that system, the police realised that the people responsible without CCTV those crimes would go unreported and were in London, virtually before those people knew it often undetected. A prime example is that of the so-called themselves, and six suspects were arrested. At the system’s “crossbow cannibal”, who was arrested on suspicion of launch in May, Chief Superintendent Geoff Dodd of murdering three prostitutes in my home city of Bradford, West Yorkshire police called it but only because he was caught on CCTV. Without CCTV, that arrest would never have been made. We “a revolutionary tool in detecting crime”. would never have been able to identify the 7 July bombers Many of my constituents are sick to the back teeth of without the CCTV footage from the tube because the drivers who do not have insurance, and who not only police would have been unable to track their movements put other people at risk, but cause them unnecessary on that day. expense. Many of my constituents think that it is absolutely Let us look at the cost-effectiveness of CCTV. The fantastic that the police can use ANPR to stop people average running cost of a CCTV system with 150 cameras who drive without insurance, and can confiscate the is about £320,000 a year, and on average 3,000 events cars. I would not want anybody to try to stop the police are monitored every year by each system, giving an doing that. average cost of about £100 per incident. It seems to me that that is good value for money in this age of austerity. I am obviously interested to know what the Minister It seems even better value when we consider that a thinks of CCTV. In 2007, he was calling for more 12-month experimental study in Burnley showed a 28% CCTV cameras in his then constituency of Hornchurch. reduction in crime in an area with CCTV, compared to On his website he stated: a 10% increase in crime in an area that relied solely on “I think CCTV would help to make an important difference in policing. Therefore, CCTV is not only cost-effective, supporting the local police. It will also make clear to those intent 25WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 26WH on causing crime in Elm Park that their images will be recorded, The same civil liberties argument seems to be used increasing the likelihood that they will be identified, prosecuted against the DNA database, with people claiming that and punished for their offences.” innocents’ profiles should be removed. Again, I do not I could not agree more. I absolutely endorse everything understand for the life of me why forensic laboratories that the Minister said then, and hope that he still feels holding somebody’s DNA infringes that person’s liberty; the same. it does not prevent anybody from going about their daily, lawful business. We all have a national insurance Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I do number, which is used for identification purposes, and I not think that in this debate any Member is likely to say am sure that hon. Members know the benefits of national that they are not in favour of CCTV, but I do want to insurance numbers in identifying constituents when see where the boundaries of the hon. Gentleman’s corresponding with various parts of the state, for example enthusiasm for these systems stop. The ANPR system the Child Support Agency and Revenue and Customs in Birmingham was installed in a predominantly Muslim for tax credits. How is a DNA number different from a area, with a view to tracking vehicles coming in to and national insurance number? The use of DNA is heavily going out of the area. Does the hon. Gentleman support restricted by legislation that permits its retention only that? Does his enthusiasm go that far? for purposes related to the prevention or detection of crime. Philip Davies: One purpose of this debate was to flush out the fact that people do support CCTV, even Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): My hon. though they are always reluctant to say so, and I am Friend rightly mentions that at birth everyone is issued therefore grateful to the hon. Gentleman for saying that with a national insurance number. It seems that if a he now supports it. On his point, surely the solution is DNA sample was linked to a child’s national insurance to have more CCTV, because if there is more CCTV number when they were registered in the national insurance and more ANPR systems no community can feel that system, the allegation that the retention of DNA profiles they are being unduly picked on, or picked on to the is unfair would be eradicated at a stroke. exclusion of others. If everybody has the systems, nobody can feel that they are treated unfairly. I think that the Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a good point. If hon. Gentleman’s argument is, therefore, for more rather he is arguing that we should take people’s DNA at than fewer of these systems, and I wholly support him birth, I certainly do not disagree with that. I am afraid, in that. however, that we are in the position of trying to persuade the Government not to take people off the DNA system, Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): rather than to add people to it. I would rather try to win Has the hon. Gentleman, or any Member here, ever had the first battle before fighting for more ambitious targets, a constituent come to their advice surgery asking for but I am sure that if anyone can persuade the Government less CCTV, or for CCTV systems to be taken away? it is my hon. Friend, and I will happily support him in any way that I can. Philip Davies: The hon. Lady makes a fantastic point. The use of DNA is highly regulated. During the I certainly have never had anybody in my surgery making application for a judicial review of the retention of such a request—quite the opposite. If I am ever lobbied DNA in the divisional court, the now Lord Justice by any of my constituents regarding CCTV, it is because Leveson stated: they want more of it—they would like some of it down “the material stored says nothing about the physical makeup, their street, for tackling crime. characteristics, or life of the person to whom they belong.” Of those surveyed for a 2005 Home Office report into The whole reason for introducing the legislation that public attitudes towards CCTV, 82% either agreed or allowed the retention of data was based on two very strongly agreed with the statement, “Overall, the advantages serious cases. One was the rape of an elderly woman of CCTV outweigh the disadvantages.” I do lots of and the other was a murder. In both cases, the DNA surveys in my constituency, and fear of crime is always matches of the perpetrators had to be ignored, as prior the top issue, whatever else is in the news. It seems, to the rape and the murder the individuals concerned therefore, that the public, once again, are streets ahead had been arrested for offences but not convicted. In the of politicians in recognising the importance of these murder case, there was even a conviction based on the crime-fighting capabilities. DNA evidence, but it was quashed by the Court of Many opponents of CCTV and ANPR use this “civil Appeal, which ruled that the evidence should not have liberties” argument, but I fail to understand how footage been admitted in the first place. That means that somebody taken by CCTV cameras on a public street invades who was clearly a convicted murdered walked free. It anyone’s privacy. If someone chooses to walk down a was not the first time that had happened, and it will not street, or go shopping in a town centre, they have made be the last, if those calling for fewer people to be on the a conscious decision to do so in the public domain and DNA database get their way. I would like to know how their actions are clearly not private. I could understand on earth that fits with the Government’s first duty to the concern if it were proposed that CCTV cameras protect the public. were put into people’s bedrooms or bathrooms, because If we accept the Government’s suggestion of removing those are clearly private domains, but the only thing the unconvicted people from the DNA database, murderers that a public CCTV camera can possibly do is prevent such as Ronald Castree would be free to roam the people from committing crime, or from doing something streets and to kill again. Castree stabbed 11-year-old antisocial or something that they should not otherwise Lesley Molseed in 1975, when she was on the way to the be doing. It does not impinge on their freedom to go shop to buy bread for her mother. Stefan Kiszcko was about their daily, lawful business. wrongfully convicted and jailed for 16 years for the 27WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 28WH

[Philip Davies] Buckland was suspected of separately assaulting and murdering two schoolgirls in 1983 and 1986, but subsequent murder, until 2005 when Castree’s DNA was taken after comparison of his DNA sample with DNA found on he had been arrested, but not charged, over another the bodies of the two victims proved that he was not the sexual attack. A cold case of Molseed’s murder provided killer. Colin Pitchfork was later arrested, having been a match with Castree’s DNA, which would not have one of the 5,000 local villagers who volunteered their been on the database if the Government and those DNA after which a match was found. other people had their way. Another famous case is that of Sean Hodgson, who Figures from the National Policing Improvement Agency was wrongly imprisoned for 27 years for the rape and state that, in 2008-09, 32,209 crimes were connected in murder of Teresa de Simone in 1979. The police ignored which a DNA match was available or played a part. The a confession at the time by David Lace, and not until his latest annual report on the national DNA database body was exhumed in 2009 and his DNA cross-checked concluded that six in 10 crime-scene profiles loaded to was he found to be the real killer. the database were matched to a subject’s profile. Many Even if the Government disregard what I think about violent criminals have only been jailed because their DNA and CCTV, and disregard what the public think, I DNA was taken when they committed a minor offence. hope that they will listen to what the professionals Dennis Fitzgerald was sentenced to eight years in think—those professionals who have to deal with the prison for the rape of a woman in November 1987. repercussions of any change in policy. Nasser Mohammed was jailed in 2008 for raping a woman in 2002, after his DNA was taken when he was Keir Starmer, the Director of Public Prosecutions, picked up for a minor offence. Often, a DNA match is said: the only thing that brings perpetrators to justice. Harry “DNA sample analysis plays an important part in protecting Musson raped a woman in her own bed while high on the public, and in the detection and prosecution of serious crime, horse tranquillisers, and was jailed after 19 years when as well as enabling the proper exculpation of the innocent.” South Yorkshire police used DNA technology to match Interestingly, he also stated that a prosecution would his profile to the crime scene. The case was reopened in not be brought on the basis of DNA evidence alone, as March 2007, following advances in DNA science. Similarly, there must be appropriate supporting evidence. However, Neil Hague was jailed for six years in January 2010 for he went on to say that raping a woman on her way to church in 1987. “a suspect’s failure to account for the presence of his DNA at the I could go on—I have case after case of people who scene of a crime may, in some circumstances, constitute appropriate have been convicted simply using DNA matches. I supporting evidence.” know that the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Paul McKeever, chairman of the Police Federation of Flint) has been prominent with her campaign about England and Wales, has given his own DNA. He says: anonymity in rape cases, but that, I suggest gently, is to “The larger the better from a policing perspective.” me a sideshow compared with what might happen to Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief rape convictions if we start taking lots of people’s DNA Police Officers said: off the database. The statistics can also speak for themselves about the “DNA puts a person in a place and then they have to explain that.” so-called innocent people on the DNA database. In 2008-09, a research project looked at 639 profile matches Lord Justice Selby, one of England’s most experienced in murder, manslaughter and rape cases. The results Appeal Court judges, told the BBC that he thinks—like show that 11% of those matches belonged to individuals my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) who did not have a conviction at the time of the match, —that the entire UK population and every visitor to but whose DNA had been retained on the database. If Britain should be put on a national DNA database. He the law was changed to stop those people being on thinks that the current system there, they would not have been brought to justice—we “means that a great many people who are walking the streets, and are talking about 70 serious offenders who would still whose DNA would show them guilty of crimes, go free.” have been out on the streets. That seems to accord with the view of the United I am interested to know what my ministerial colleague Arab Emirates, which announced in October 2009 that believes. Our right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel it will create a national DNA database covering the and South Downs (Nick Herbert), now the Minister of entire resident population. State, Ministry of Justice, said in a question-and-answer We must also be careful making changes to the rules session in 2007: on DNA retention while looking to the Scottish model “We shouldn’t forget that the DNA database has enabled the police to solve a huge number of crimes, including very serious as the holy grail. First, we are not comparing like with ones. I myself would have no objection to my DNA being put on like, as there is a distinctly different judicial system in it.” Scotland. Secondly, the Scottish system for dealing with I endorse that—I tried to give my DNA to the local DNA is not fairer than the UK’s at all. The DNA of police force in my area, because I am such a keen adults arrested or charged but not convicted of violent supporter. However, I was told that I was not able to do or sexual offences can be held for an initial three-year so because I was not a suspect or involved in a previous period—an important point, because if a sheriff believes crime. I have written to the Home Secretary to ask why that there are reasons for keeping such data beyond the people who volunteer their DNA are being refused the three-year period, he can extend it for an additional two right to put it in the database. I await her reply. years, and so on. The DNA database can also be used to acquit the In the cases of the most serious crimes, it could be innocent. The first murder conviction using DNA evidence, many years before a further offence is committed by in 1988, proved the innocence of another suspect. Richard someone cleared or not charged with an earlier criminal 29WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 30WH act. That concerns me greatly—the proposals to destroy All our liberties are at stake—our liberty to walk what could be potentially crucial information need to down the street safely is at stake. Again quoting the be carefully considered before people who have committed Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. a crime are let off. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs, I totally agree with what he said in a speech last week: Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman “crime can never be too low; our streets can never be too safe and is making an excellent speech. Would he agree with my there can never be excuses for inaction.” right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull Unfortunately, the Government give the impression West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), the former Home that they do not believe in CCTV or DNA. They may Secretary, that before we rush into any hasty decisions, not go as far as I would, but I hope that this debate will it is at least worth retaining the DNA database until at least give the Minister the opportunity to make it 2012, when for the first time we will have six years of clear to the House and to the police that he supports the statistics? That would be wise, considering that the use of CCTV, DNA and automatic number plate Scottish police say that they would rather have our recognition as essential tools in fighting crime that keep system than their current one. us safe, enhancing our freedoms, not diminishing them.

Philip Davies: I agree with the right hon. Lady; she is 11.30 am absolutely right. Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to There is always the risk that, the day after any cut-off contribute to this debate, and I congratulate the hon. point, someone could, for example, go out and commit Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) on securing it. This a murder. In that instance, such a person’s previous is the second time in a week that we have appeared DNA would not be available to the police so that they together on the same side, so we are in strange times in could detect the crime and prevent further murders, terms of alliances. What unites us today is the argument because it would have been destroyed in the name of about the balance between respecting individual freedoms civil liberties. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister and liberties and recognising that the people we represent will consider that carefully before coming up with any want the freedom to live and work safely in their reduced time scales for the retention of data, as it is communities, free from crime as much as possible. Ministers who will have to live with the consequences of their actions further down the line. We all know that crime has gone down, but the reality is that often people’s perception is that it has not. We In the fight against crime, effective technology such politicians in the previous Government tackled that and as DNA and CCTV should be encouraged, not discouraged. tried to do so further. I am sure that the present Government Those methods can hugely speed up police detection of will find that they face the same problem. CCTV has crime, which could mean the difference between life and contributed to people’s sense of personal safety. In death for someone else. It really is that serious, which is Doncaster, CCTV cameras at the taxi cab ranks in the why I am so determined to fight any proposals to town centre have undoubtedly helped to solve crimes. I restrict the use of those technologies in the name of know of one case where some young men waiting in a so-called civil liberties. queue for a taxi were attacked by some other young men. Before the victims had rung the police to inform Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving them of the attack, the police had already seen it on way again—he is very generous. camera and, by tracking the offenders by camera through Is his position the same as that argued by his hon. Doncaster, they picked up the culprits before the victims Friend sitting next to him, the hon. Member for Bury got to the police station. That is a good example, North, that the DNA database should be extended to showing how effectively CCTV can work. include everyone? CCTV has also been a tool in respect of antisocial behaviour. I was pleased that we in the previous Government Philip Davies: I think I dealt with that in an earlier had started to talk more about how communities could intervention. If my hon. Friend the Member for Bury have more say in where cameras would be positioned. North was proposing taking people’s DNA at birth, I Undoubtedly, mobile CCTV units have been effective would agree. However, that is a battle for further down when placed in hotspots for antisocial behaviour that the line. What I am worried about at the moment is that may lead to crime. we are removing from the database a limited number of Today we should be talking not about restrictions, people’s DNA. We have not yet reached the issue of but about how we can improve the quality of the whether to extend the database—I wish we were and technology that is available. Let me tell an anecdote. that that was the nature of the debate we are having Before I was a Member of Parliament, my husband and today. I were involved in helping stop an armed bank robbery I am trying to stop the Government from making the in a local bank on a Saturday. Unfortunately for us, as stupid mistake of removing people from the DNA part of the solution in solving that crime, it was the database. That is why I am so determined to fight the early days of CCTV and the Saturday staff who came in proposals to restrict the use of such technologies in the from another branch forgot to turn on the camera name of so-called civil liberties. Organisations such as inside the bank. We have moved on a long way since Liberty are not really arguing for civil liberties but for then. It is important to ensure that the equipment is of anarchy, which cannot be right. I am sure that they the highest quality. would prefer it if no one was arrested for anything, but I The hon. Gentleman cited a number of important am afraid that in the real world that is not what we are cases. I should like to mention that CCTV was used in heretodo. pursuing Steven Wright, who was responsible for the 31WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 32WH

[Caroline Flint] or manslaughter charges in England and Wales were matched to the DNA database from DNA profiles that murder of five women in Ipswich. As I have said, CCTV belonged to individuals who had been arrested but not is also used in multiple cases of drunk and disorderly convicted of any crime. The evidence shows—this is not behaviour, antisocial behaviour, graffiti and vandalism. easy to come to terms with—that there is a justification I appreciate the points that have been made by hon. for retaining the DNA of people who have been arrested Members about other organisations, including local but not convicted because their risk of offending, as authorities. Again, I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I measured by the risk of re-arrest, is higher than that of do not advocate putting cameras into people’s refuse the general population. This risk is higher than the bins. But when tackling fraud, for example, CCTV general population for six years following the first arrest, cameras can be useful, whether they are used by the at which point their DNA would be removed. Department for Work and Pensions or the local authority, We should also not forget the potential deterrent where people say one thing about their inability to effect of DNA. People are less likely to commit crime if work, although the reality, which is caught on camera, they know that there is a good chance they could get is that they are working at or are seen leaving local sites caught. There are many ways of deterring people from regularly each day. Unfortunately, we do not live in an committing crime. We can look at our neighbourhoods ideal world with enough police officers and benefit and create designs to make them safer, but we should fraud inspectors out there on every street—and I do not embrace and deal with technology and not be luddite think that that would be a good use either of public about it. If people know that DNA can play a significant money or their time. role in securing convictions, they will be less likely to It is vital that we equip the police with the technology commit crime in the first place. that they need. I am proud, as a former Home Office The head of the National Policing Improvement Agency, Minister, to have been in charge of this area of work. which hosts the DNA database, has said that it has been Automatic number plate recognition is a fantastic tool. the I recommend that all right hon. and hon. Members sit “most effective tool for the prevention and detection of crime in a police car and see how it works, connecting up to since the development of fingerprint analysis more than a century the cameras. It is amazing. Undoubtedly, despite police ago.” complaints about bureaucracy, they welcome that As the hon. Gentleman said, DNA does not only find technology wholeheartedly, as do the people that they those who are guilty; it can ensure that those who were work with in the community. thought to be guilty, or who were sent to jail as a result We have to ensure that CCTV can be used and that it of a court conviction, can be proved innocent. I urge is not stopped. It needs to be made more effective. I am the Minister to be cautious in proceeding in this area in pleased that under the previous Government an interim a way that could undermine some tools that are effective CCTV regulator was appointed to look at that. I hope in fighting crime in the 21st century. that in all the rhetoric that is used we do not lose sight of the important job that CCTV does. Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. Before It has been suggested that we should reduce the calling the next speaker, can I say that it would be amount of time that DNA is retained in the database. sensible to have the wind-ups starting at 10 minutes By 2012 we will have six years’ worth of statistics. I urge past 12 to allow more time for Back Bench participation? the Minister to be cautious about doing anything to destabilise that information, which can then be looked 11.38 am at, allowing us to make a more considered choice. This Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I, too, is a good example of devolution politics. Although congratulate the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) there is a three-year limit Scotland, with a caveat on its on securing this debate on an important subject. For being extended, we need to be clear about what we are me, the title of the debate is important because it talking about. Despite the three-year headline, in Scotland specifies tackling crime by effectively dealing with either they are still mindful that the period for which information the prevention or detection of crime. In this way, it is kept might want to be extended. I understand that the mimics the most basic aspects of my police training 20 Scottish police would like a system that is more like the years ago, where I was taught the function of a police one in England. Why not have something more like officer, which is fourfold: to protect life and property; to English policy once in a while? preserve law and order; to prevent and detect crime; and The DNA database has been transforming. It has to prosecute offenders. We judge the effectiveness of been used, for example, in south Yorkshire to resolve a policing against those four aims, and, equally, as tools case involving rape some decades old. The culprit was used as an aid to those aims, we should judge DNA and found because his sister was picked up years later on a CCTV against them. We all agree that more rapists, drink driving charge. Her DNA was taken and matched muggers and murderers should be in prison, but we in the system, making a connection with her brother, have to be clear about whether a DNA database or who had been responsible for a huge number of rapes CCTV will achieve that. many years ago. Without doubt, the DNA database has DNA is undoubtedly an effective tool in detecting contributed to solving thousands of crimes. offenders. In 2008-09, DNA evidence helped to clear up Between March 1998 and March 2009, DNA evidence 1,700 serious crimes. However, when looking at broad helped solve more than 304,000 crimes. In 2008-09, figures such as those, we should remember that in many there were 252 homicides and 580 rapes with a DNA cases the DNA evidence might not have been the only scene-subject match. It is also important to recognise evidence or the decisive evidence. In my time in the that DNA also picks up people who have not been police, I spent two years as a scenes of crime officer and convicted of a former crime. In 2008-09, 79 rape, murder attended many murder scenes, and murders are by far 33WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 34WH the best example. Most murders are committed in the Do DNA and CCTV help to detect crime? Possibly, heat of an argument by friends and family members, in some circumstances. It is important to be clear about and, after the fact, no attempt is made to conceal the the purpose for which a camera is introduced. If it is for crime or to evade detection. DNA swabs would be number plate recognition in a car park, to detect stolen taken as a matter of course and form part of the cars or cars with no tax, and that information is acted evidentiary process, but, in real terms, they would add upon immediately, then it is effective. If it is city centre very little. CCTV being watched in real time and acted upon, as in the example mentioned, then it can be effective. However, We need to be careful about seeing DNA evidence as we should be clear that a tiny fraction of the 4.2 million some sort of scientific knight in shining armour for CCTV cameras across the country fall into that category, serious crimes. It is still too expensive to be used in all and that is the issue. We have allowed the unrestrained but the most serious crimes, and fingerprints will still be proliferation of CCTV over the UK. We have reached left at many more crime scenes and are identified far the point where Shetland has more cameras than San more cheaply. Whether we have the correct legislative Francisco, and Scotland, as a whole, has 10 times the balance between DNA’s effectiveness in crime detection number of cameras as Johannesburg, with a population and an individual’s right to privacy is an important of 4 million. In London, only one crime a year is solved question. The European Court of Human Rights does for every 1,000 cameras. The hon. Member for Shipley not think we do. It described existing English and Welsh mentioned the age of austerity as an argument for legislation as “blanket and indiscriminate”, but noted CCTV; I am sorry, but the numbers do not stack up. the consistency of the Scottish approach. The problem The time for regulation of CCTV is definitely here, not is the blurring of the line between innocence and guilt. only to ensure that those systems that effectively help in The national DNA database is the biggest DNA the detection and prosecution of crime can continue, database in the world, with 5.6 million people on it, but but to ensure that those systems that do not contribute 1 million of those have not convicted of any crime. to the fight are overhauled. Despite the growing database, its effectiveness is declining year on year. Its costs doubled between 2006-07 and 11.47 am 2008-09 to £4.2 million, but detections fell by a quarter, Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): and we must examine why. It is because we are getting In essence, the debate is about what we mean by “freedom” closer to the point at which the database captures our and whose freedom. The body snatchers have taken the criminal fraternity. It is the law of diminishing returns; Conservative party and turned it into a libertarian as we capture the criminal profiles of fewer and fewer party in which the rights of the individual are supreme new convicted criminals, we are instead trawling our over those of the community.The safety of the community way through more and more innocent suspects. The gives many people their freedom. For an elderly lady focus needs to change, and we must ensure that anyone who wants to cash her pension at the post office or a convicted of a crime is on the database; they have woman who works shifts and goes home at night from forgone their right to privacy, but the innocent have not. the tube station, a CCTV camera can provide freedom. For someone who can drive or has someone who will CCTV is a far more difficult subject. Many people drive for them, and has a secure home in an area where like CCTV, because it makes them feel safe and secure, there is little or no crime, these things mean nothing, but it is a comfort blanket. Surely, something that costs but, for most of our constituents for most of the time, the Government hundreds of millions of pounds should these things give them freedom. Not only freedom from be judged on its effectiveness. There is nothing in police actual crime, but freedom from the fear of crime, allowing legislation, which mandates the police to deal with the them to use their lives to the best of their abilities, go to fear of crime. The right hon. Member for Don Valley work and enjoy a social life, without which their lives, (Caroline Flint) mentioned a politician’s need to deal and our lives, would be sad and miserable. with fear of crime, which we must do, but if we mandated At certain point, the media always appear to go one the police to deal with it, how would it be measured? way, and those who are regarded as part of the intellectual How would we measure DNA and CCTV’s usefulness class move away from our constituents. In my experience in dealing with it? In examining their effectiveness, we over the past 13 years, our constituents are the ones must ask, do they prevent crime? Some crime, in some who generally get it right, such as on tackling anti-social areas, possibly, though whether it is prevention or behaviour, as the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, displacement is arguable. was brave enough to do when he was ridiculed by the In city centres, where alcohol is involved in the media. Now, our responsibility as MPs—representatives commission of many crimes, as mentioned earlier, CCTV of our constituents—is to say no to the Government has little effect in crime prevention. Even in the examples and no to those forces who see this as an arithmetical of crime falling, the extra lighting, fencing and security argument. It is an argument about an individual’s safety guards, which come with many CCTV installations, and the detection of crime, and things that allow us to might be the active element in preventing crime. lead our lives as we see fit. Not only us, but the people Interestingly, the public believing that cameras are effective who are the biggest victims of crime in town centres—young can have two adverse effects: first, people may become black men. They are often the people used to oppose careless, having been given a false sense of security by CCTV and the DNA database, but they will tell us that the presence of cameras, which makes the commission those tools provide them with safety and security. of crime easier; and, secondly, people believe that someone We must be suspicious of the things that we read and is watching the footage in real time, which allows them of the great causes often presented by individual newspaper to abrogate responsibility for becoming involved upon columnists who do not see life as we or our constituents seeing a crime being committed. CCTV can work against see it. Our constituents are the people to whom we creating the involved responsible society we need. should give first prominence. 35WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 36WH

11.49 am “The CCTV cameras play a key role in the prevention and Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate detection of crime and the recorded images provide vital evidence to law enforcement agencies to assist in the apprehension and my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) prosecution offenders.” on securing this debate and on his courageous opening speech. For my constituents, crime and antisocial behaviour I want to draw attention to the point about apprehension are consistently among the top three issues in all the and prosecution, because sometimes CCTV is defended surveys that I have done. There are persistent problem too much for its use in crime prevention, and not areas that would be ameliorated by the greater use of enough for its benefits in the detection of crime and in CCTV—I do not argue for the unregulated use of improving the rate of prosecution. The quality of some CCTV, but for its greater use. of the camera footage and the ability to zoom in and get close-ups can help with the identification of individuals, In Stourbridge town centre we have good CCTV or rule people out of prosecution who might otherwise coverage and, like the right hon. Member for Don have been deemed to have been involved in a crime. Valley (Caroline Flint), I have been out with the local police force and seen the cameras in action. I have The identification of people who have committed a visited the viewing facilities, and it is an effective tool, criminal act addresses one of the key public concerns but it covers only a small proportion of my constituency. about the criminal justice system in this country, namely The remainder of my constituency is covered by one that all too often, people assume that they can get away single “Sherpa” camera, about which I will say a little with crime. I am afraid that in large parts of my more later, because there are some lessons to be learned constituency, they can and they do because, as my hon. from that. Technology is a vital tool in policing, and I Friend the Member for Shipley maintains, the police am concerned that we should not go down the road of cannot be on every street corner. There are vast swathes regulating it so that it becomes a problem for the police where antisocial behaviour is prevalent, and there is no to deploy it. I am sure that that is not the Government’s real means of building up a decent evidence base to deal intention. with the perpetrators and return to law-abiding people We have heard a little about the image of CCTV from the right to a decent quality of life. the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart). I have a few statistics from the Leedswatch initiative. There are arguments that CCTV is not effective, that The Leeds police installed 14 cameras in what was half the time there is no film in it, that nobody—including effectively a no-go area in east Leeds. Within 18 months, the police—is watching it, or that the quality of the film crime had come down by 48% and the number of and the resolution are not adequate to provide decent burglaries had fallen by 65%. I do not argue that that photographs that might aid a prosecution. However, was solely due to CCTV,but the Leedswatch management those arguments are not against the deployment of stated quite clearly that the introduction of CCTV was CCTV but rather against the deployment of ineffective pivotal to that improvement. While doing my research, CCTV, which is not something that we ask for or I noted that during one week in June this year, CCTV promote. Of course, CCTV alone cannot solve crimes, coverage in Leeds led to 57 arrests. Such statistics but it is a fundamental part of the armamentarium held demonstrate the value that CCTV can provide, and we by the police in their battle against crime on behalf of cannot afford to ignore that when our constituents’ fear society. The hon. Member for Edinburgh West also of crime is very real. mentioned displacement, but one cannot have it both When the Minister considers how best to regulate ways. One cannot argue that CCTV causes the displacement CCTV in future, I would commend to him the Leedswatch of crime at the same time as arguing that CCTV is not code of practice, which runs to 30 pages, and covers all effective against crime. That does not seem to stack up. the important issues concerning who accesses the Liberty and privacy are important, and I am hopeful photographs, the public’s human rights, data protection, that whatever regulation the Government have in mind, how the system is operated, on what basis the photo they will attend to those important issues without deterring footage is disclosed and so on. The Government will the use of CCTV for rightful matters. We have heard a probably find everything that they need to know about few quotes from my right hon. Friend the Member for how best to regulate CCTV nationally from observing Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), the Minister the code of practice in Leeds. responsible for the police, and I am encouraged to I mentioned the sole roving camera that we have at report another statement in which he said that our our disposal in my constituency to cover areas outside liberty is protected by ensuring that people can live the town centre. The regulations covering the use of safely. That is the point about liberty as far as I and the that camera are stringent. Before putting the camera up, vast majority of my constituents are concerned. If we the police must demonstrate that they have deployed are to have more—or different—regulation, we need a extensive preventive measures and that those measures system that is proportionate and facilitates proper usage, have failed. They can erect the camera for only 72 hours and that recognises the important role of CCTV when it before taking it down. I could go on, but my point is is of decent quality and integrated with other policing that the system is already pretty well regulated. I hope methods. that the Government will look at existing codes of I would like to speak briefly about the effectiveness of regulation around the country and develop a sensible that tool within the overall armamentarium that the system that protects the liberty not only of those who police have at their disposal as used in the Safer Leeds are concerned about privacy, but of the vast majority of initiative, a crime and disorder partnership that operates people who are concerned about crime and who, I in Leeds between the local authority and the police. The believe, are far better protected by the use of CCTV CCTV element is known as Leedswatch, and it is a within the overall mix than they are by any fear of powerful weapon against crime, according to the police regulating it so that it becomes more difficult to deploy. and local authority members in that part of the world. The chief of police is quoted as stating: Several hon. Members rose— 37WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 38WH

Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. There [MR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] are four hon. Members still trying to catch my eye and 12 minutes to go before the winding-up speeches. I call If we examine the process, the issue of whether the Mr Keith Vaz. database should be extended can be dealt with, but I think that if people are innocent and are caught in a situation in which they have absolutely nothing to do with a crime, their DNA should not be on the database. 11.59 am The former Government moved significantly, from 12 years Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to to six, and I hope that the present Government will follow the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), carefully examine the process as well as the principle of with her very informative speech, and to serve under what is proposed. you, Mr Chope, for the first time. I was about to I understand that there are 4.2 million CCTV cameras. describe the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) as Someone can be caught on average 300 times a day on a the Shami Chakrabarti of the Conservative party until CCTV camera. I had no idea that we had more in he described Liberty as an anarchist organisation, so I Orkney than in San Francisco per head of population, shall have to refrain and instead describe him as a kind but those are very important statistics. We are not of male Boadicea from Yorkshire, on his chariot fighting saying and the Select Committee, in its unanimous for the civil liberties of this country. report, did not say, “Stop using CCTV cameras,” simply I think that there is no disagreement among Members because every time that I go back to my constituency, of the House that we need both DNA on a database local residents are calling for more cameras. and CCTV as tools in our fight against crime. I would be amazed if any hon. Member said that we should stop Philip Davies: I do not want to interrupt the right using either of those two very important techniques in hon. Gentleman’s flow, but I want to make the point trying to detect crime. The division will be over the that the figure of 4.5 million CCTV cameras is derived extent to which we use DNA and a DNA database and by Professor Clive Norris for the EU-funded Urbaneye cameras to detect crime. project. It counts the number of cameras in Putney high It would be churlish of me not to welcome what the street and extrapolates that figure across London and Government propose, because it is fully in line with two then the UK. There are nowhere near 4.5 million CCTV reports by the Select Committee on Home Affairs in the cameras. According to the people who actually use the previous Parliament. Both were unanimous and both system, the figure is much nearer 1.5 million. called for changes to be made. To be fair to the former police Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Keith Vaz: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman—I Delyn (Mr Hanson), we had the Government moving in knew there would be an EU dimension to this debate the right direction, at least as regards the DNA database. somewhere. However, we have reached the stage at We have the largest DNA database in the world; which we have too many cameras in the wrong places. 15,000 profiles are added every week. It is much larger As the hon. Member for Stourbridge said, we need than that of any other country in Europe, given the new more in different areas; they need to be fit for purpose; information put on it on a daily basis. I shall explain the we need to know what their use is. That is why the Select problem for the Select Committee and, I think, for Committee suggested that we have not reached the other Members of the House. I am sure that the hon. stage of being a surveillance society, but we are Member for Shipley has discussed this with his hon. almost there, so let us stop and pause, which is precisely Friend the Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg what the Government are doing in adopting the Hands). Quite innocently, he was asked to provide recommendations of the Select Committee, and examine DNA to the police for an inquiry, and he waited for the current situation. We also proposed that we should months and months to get information about whether ensure that once a year the Information Commissioner the police had that DNA on their database. The issue lays a report before Parliament on this issue and that we for members of the Committee and Members of the have a proper debate, not in Westminster Hall but on House was very much one of process. I think that if the the Floor of the House, where many more hon. Members process of getting information from the police was a can participate on these two very important subjects. little better, we would not now be talking about trying The hon. Member for Shipley and other hon. Members to control the very large number of names on the have quoted police officers and others in support of database. their arguments. The hon. Member for Edinburgh West My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Mike Crockart) served as a police officer for eight (Siobhain McDonagh), for whom I have huge respect, years in Lothian and the Borders, so he comes to the mentioned the black community and their willingness House with huge experience on this issue. However, we to be protected by the taking of DNA, but she will do not always accept everything that the police have to know that 75% of young black men are on the DNA say. They are very useful in providing us with information. database. It disproportionately takes DNA from young The only time that the Select Committee divided in the black people, so there are lots of faults with the current previous Parliament was over the 42 days issue. That system. I think that all the Government are seeking to was the only time we had a vote, and that was because do—obviously, it is for the Minister, not me, to make powerful evidence was given by the Metropolitan Police the Government’s case—is control it and to allow innocent Commissioner. We take such information, and obviously people to have the opportunity, if they choose to do so, we have huge respect for those who implement these to apply to one organisation and receive a reply about decisions, but at the end of the day, it is our judgment whether their DNA is on the database. as politicians. 39WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 40WH

[Keith Vaz] have innocent people, convicted criminals and people in between—people who are innocent, but who are not I shall just put one more expert into the pot, for the really innocent, because it will be argued, as we have purposes of the discussion. I am referring to the views heard it argued today, that there is a good chance they of Sir Alec Jeffreys, the man who discovered DNA will commit a crime. However, people are either innocent profiling and who, in evidence to the Select Committee, or they are not. said that he thought that it had gone too far or at least As we have so little time, let me turn to the issue of Governments had gone too far in extending and expanding children. There are 24,000 innocent children on the the database. He suggested that there was a limit. We DNA database, and I would not want that to become a understand why DNA should be kept on the database if self-fulfilling prophecy for them. In one case in Hull people are convicted, if they are charged, but if they are recently, a 15-year-old boy who was completely innocent innocent, a time limit should be the order of the day. If ended up on the DNA database through no fault of his not, they should have the ability to ask at least whether own. Those of us on the city council at the time had to their DNA is being retained on the database. shout, scream and bang on the door of Humberside police to get that child off the database and to extract Several hon. Members rose— an apology from them. Everything in moderation. Mr David Amess (in the Chair): Order. Winding-up speeches begin at 12.10 pm. Three hon. Members wish 12.10 pm to speak. I believe that it will be a minute and a bit for each of them. I call Andrew Percy. Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. I congratulate 12.7 pm the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) on securing the debate. It was a pleasure to listen to his argument, Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I will obviously although we will have to wait to see whether the Minister now cut what I intended to say. I generally agree with shared that pleasure. At times, it felt a bit like we were pretty much everything that my hon. Friend the Member witnessing a domestic dispute, although I am not sure for Shipley (Philip Davies) had to say, particularly on whether it was about body-snatching or political cross- European matters, on which he has some very sensible dressing. We are used to Lib Dem supporters complaining views indeed. However, I depart from him a little when that they voted Lib Dem and woke up to a Tory it comes to the DNA database. Government and cuts, but we now have Tory supporters I shall deal with CCTV quickly. Like every hon. who voted Tory only to find that they have a Liberal Member who has spoken, I am generally a supporter of Democrat law and order policy, if that is not a contradiction it, but I represent a largely rural constituency and there in terms. More seriously, however, the hon. Member for are huge issues associated with the coverage of CCTV Shipley questioned whether the Government have forgotten cameras in rural areas, the funding streams and the way their first duty—the protection of their citizens. in which CCTV cameras have generally developed through Let me deal first with the DNA database. The previous the crime and safety partnerships in the past few years. Government responded to the S and Marper judgment We cannot argue simplistically that because we have in a balanced and proportionate way. The police told us had CCTV, crime has fallen, because recorded crime that the database provided them with about 3,300 DNA has fallen—we might well have a debate about whether matches a month and that it was a key instrument in crime has fallen—both in areas where there is CCTV bringing people to justice. However, we also understood and in areas where there is not. the need to uphold the right to privacy, which is why we I do not accept what I think was the argument of the proposed a balanced and proportionate system of retaining hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain DNA for six years. After that time, the evidence shows McDonagh), which was that if we can generally justify that the risk of offending levels out to match that for the the ends, the means do not particularly matter. That is a rest of the population. There was strong argument somewhat utilitarian approach and not one I would over the issue on two successive Bills in the previous wish to find myself on the side of. Session, and although the then Opposition—now the There is an issue regarding the retention of DNA Government—allowed the second of those Bills to proceed profiles for children, which I shall comment on in a in the wash-up, we are now told that Ministers intend to moment, but no one would underestimate the value of press on with the Scottish model, under which DNA DNA evidence in solving crimes. I would not wish to do would be held for only three years, without evidence that at all. It exists, it will continue to develop and I that that would be in the public interest. support its continued use. However, if we followed to its I therefore want the Minister to answer the following logical conclusion what some hon. Members have said, questions. What discussions has he had since the election we would end up with everyone being microchipped at with Chris Sims, the chief constable of West Midlands birth, because the technology is almost there for that, police and the Association of Chief Police Officers lead and everyone would be followed no matter where they on DNA, who said: went throughout the day. Consequently, everyone’s actions would be entirely visible for everyone else to see. The “There are 40,000 crimes matched every year; it is helping us to argument is that as long as we are not doing anything keep safe. Reducing the numbers on the database will tip the wrong, why would we worry about that? That is the balance towards making people less safe”? logical conclusion. If people want to pursue that argument What discussions has he had with Sir Hugh Orde, who and defend the notion that we should take everyone’s said in his evidence to the Home Affairs Committee DNA profile at birth, that is fine—it is at least logical inquiry on DNA that anything that takes intelligence and consistent. However, the situation now is that we away from the police service can make our lives more 41WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 42WH difficult? What discussions has he had with the Scottish alone at night, as the hon. Member for Shipley said. police, most of whom favour the English rather than the These people cannot afford the expensive security systems Scottish model? that Ministers enjoy in their homes and workplaces. Has the Minister spoken to Baroness Stern, the author We are told that the freedom Bill might roll back of the recent report on rape, about the role that DNA CCTV because of the threat to civil liberties. We are might play in deterring stranger rape? Has he met Sara also told that the public, whom I believe support CCTV, Payne, the victims’ champion, to discuss his proposals? can nominate regulations to be scrapped in the Bill. If She said: the public call for more CCTV and less regulation of it, “I am pleased with the Government’s”— will the Government accept that view and act on it in the Bill? the Labour Government’s— Crime is down by a third, whether we look at the “new proposals as I believe they strike the right balance between individual liberties and the ability of the police to apprehend British crime survey or the recorded crime figures. The offenders and bring them to justice.” previous Government were the first since the second world war to leave office with crime lower than when She went on to say that the DNA database has allowed they came in, although we now have the unedifying many criminals to be brought to justice, especially those spectacle of the Home Secretary looking for a counting committing violent or sexual crimes. system that will allow her to disprove that record. Given that the ACPO criminal records office has said However, part of the reason why crime is down is that that 10% of DNA matches in murder, manslaughter we had more police officers, who had more access to and rape cases come from individuals who do not have new technologies, including DNA profiles and CCTV. a conviction at the time, but whose DNA has been It now seems that budgets will be cut by between 25% retained on the database, what estimates have the and 40%, and the Government might want to limit Government made of the number of serious crimes that DNA profiling and CCTV. It is one thing for any may not be solved if the Scottish model is adopted in Government to risk their reputation on crime, but it is England? much more dangerous to put the safety of citizens and I now want to say something about CCTV.Designing communities at risk. out crime has a big role to play in reducing crime, and it has proven its worth in relation to vehicle crime. The 12.18 pm Design Alliance brought young people to the Home The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Office some months ago and asked them what made Home Department (James Brokenshire): I welcome you them safer in their schools and communities, and their to the Chair, Mr Amess. It is a pleasure to serve under answers were very revealing. The first thing they asked your chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the for was better lighting and the second was CCTV. They Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) on securing the wanted to feel safe even if cameras were watching. We debate and on raising a number of important issues. I should remember that young people are more likely to noted the initial comments of the right hon. Member be the victims of crime than the perpetrators, as we have for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), and it is interesting to see heard this morning. the coalitions that can sometimes form during a debate. What discussions has the Minister had about CCTV? I do not know whether it includes the right hon. Member Has he discussed it with Sir Hugh Orde, who said that for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), but a coalition has CCTV is not something that the public continually air certainly been created in this debate. concerns to him or many of his chief officers about? Perhaps I can reassure my hon. Friend the Member Has the Minister had discussions with Commander for Shipley and other hon. Members by saying that I Simon Foy, the head of homicide at Scotland Yard, absolutely agree with what they said about the importance whom the hon. Member for Shipley quoted? Commander of DNA and CCTV in tackling crime. My hon. Friend Foy talked about the importance of CCTV in catching referred to comments that I made, not necessarily in a people who commit murder. Has the Minister had previous life, but in a previous seat. I certainly believe in discussions with Members of Parliament, most, if not the importance of CCTV, which can be harnessed in all, of whom have probably campaigned with constituents such a way as to protect our communities. for more CCTV? Will he come to Victoria terrace in my In many ways—to take the point made by the right constituency to talk to residents, who believe that CCTV hon. Member for Don Valley about many people’s will be of enormous help in coping with the fallout perception or fear of crime within their community—CCTV from the nearby evening economy? can be an important tool for that if it is used effectively If the Minister remains unconvinced, let me return to with the appropriate framework and public support. the person to whom most of those who have spoken That point was made by my hon. Friend the Member have returned—the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, for Stourbridge (Margot James). I do not want to give the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs the impression that the Government are fundamentally (Nick Herbert), who is the current Police Minister. He opposed in some way to CCTV cameras. They have an wrote in the West Sussex County Times: important role in supporting communities and aiding “Some people object to this proliferation, but I don’t. I agree the police in their work. that there is no substitute for police officers on our streets, but cameras help to make neighbourhoods safer and solve crimes…to Andrew Percy: Will the Minister give way? those who claim that this all heralds a Big Brother society, I say, why should innocent people worry that someone is watching out James Brokenshire: I should like to make some progress; for their safety?” I need to reply to several speeches, and I might need to CCTV protects the most vulnerable, often in high-crime take an intervention from an hon. Member who did not areas where people just want to be able to walk home get called to speak. 43WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention)6 JULY 2010 DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 44WH

[James Brokenshire] Emma Reynolds: Have the Minister or the Government made any assessment of the cost to businesses of increasing The interesting and perhaps central point in the regulation of CCTV cameras? Many businesses in debate is the balance between the right of the public to Wolverhampton North East use them to prevent and be protected from crime and the right of individuals to tackle business crime, which is still a massive issue. live their lives without unnecessary state intrusion. That has been at the forefront of many of the speeches this James Brokenshire: The hon. Lady makes an important morning. It has been interesting, and there have been point about the nature of regulation. We are considering some important contributions. I hear what my hon. its ambit and scope in relation to public versus private Friend the Member for Shipley said about drawing a areas, and publicly-owned versus privately-owned CCTV. distinction between certain freedoms, which he articulated Of course we are conscious of the regulatory burden with reference to ID cards, which he sees as an intrusion, and the possible regulatory impact. That will be a factor as against CCTV surveillance or the retention of DNA that we shall consider—and are considering—as part of profiles, which he did not see as an intrusion in the same the regulatory framework we shall bring to the House, way. Clearly, not everyone shares that view, as we have so that there can be further debate. seen in connection with developments in Birmingham; Perhaps I should return to the central issue of the indeed, many cases from constituency postbags, to do debate and the balance between the public’s right to be with DNA profiles, for example, show that the issue is protected from crime and individuals’ right to live their considered significant for the way the state may perceive lives without undue interference. I do not see that there individuals who have done no wrong. That private life is necessarily a conflict between the two. We are rightly interest is involved in the balance. proud in this country of our tradition of policing by There have been comments about the role of the consent. Securing the trust and confidence of the public police. We have certainly discussed issues with ACPO is vital to the police, to enable them to detect and and other police representatives and shall continue to prevent crime effectively. That extends to the techniques do so as we progress with and publish our detailed and tools used by the police in their role. I was struck by proposals, so that the House can give them proper the remarks of the hon. Member for Edinburgh West consideration. I am sure that we are only at the start of (Mike Crockart); one of his key points was about the discussion of those important issues, which is why I concepts of usefulness and effectiveness. If we ensure welcome the speeches that have been made, albeit that, that there is trust and confidence, and that the scientific while it is a pleasure to continue in debate with the hon. elements are deployed so as to be more effective and so Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell), he and I have as to secure public trust and confidence in them, that in probably debated the issues six or seven times in the itself aids policing; it aids confidence, trust and belief in past couple of years and I am reconciled to our not the work that the police do on our behalf to make reaching complete agreement. We do, however, find communities safer. That is an important aspect of the agreement in the importance we place on public safety debate and I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s speech. and the need for checks and balances on the retention of DNA. Although I may the other day have made a We are all aware of cases in which DNA evidence has pejorative suggestion about the hon. Gentleman supporting been important in proving guilt or innocence, and several the indefinite retention of DNA, I recognise that at the examples have been given this morning. The fight against time in question that was not his position: there was crime necessitates the use of modern scientific techniques recognition of a need for some restrictions on the of investigation and identification. Indeed, this country retention period and related matters. We may not be claims a pioneering role in utilising DNA technology. wholly on the same page, but I recognise that there is at As we have heard, it has proportionately one of the least some agreement about some issues. largest DNA databases in the world, with more than 6.1 million profiles stored on it. It has grown by more than Keith Vaz: Does the Minister accept the recommendation 1 million profiles in the past two years. The use of of the Select Committee that there should be an annual technology must strike the right balance between the debate on the issue in Parliament, with a report presented wider interest of public protection and the respecting of to Parliament by the Information Commissioner? private life rights. That sense of proportionality is central to the debate. James Brokenshire: I very much welcome the contribution made by the Home Affairs Committee on the issues of Mr Nuttall: Will the Minister explain briefly how CCTV and DNA retention. I made sure that I had a having a DNA profile put on a database can affect copy of at least one of those reports before coming to someone’s private rights? How does their profile being today’s debate. We shall certainly reflect on a range of on a database impinge on their rights? issues about CCTV as we proceed with the framework for regulation, and I shall consider the recommendations in the Committee’s report. Other codes of practice have James Brokenshire: I think that I touched earlier on been referred to and the right hon. Member for Leicester the fact that it is a question of the way the state may East mentioned the Information Commissioner, whose perceive an individual as a criminal, when they are office has published a CCTV code of practice. That is innocent, and the impact of that on a person. As a important in informing the debate, as are the findings Home Office Minister I sign many letters to honourable and feedback that we receive from the interim CCTV colleagues who have raised that point, and I am sure regulator, which as the right hon. Member for Don that the hon. Member for Tynemouth used to do so Valley pointed out was set up under the previous before me. Government. We await the regulator’s recommendations This morning’s debate is drawing to a conclusion. I and feedback and will reflect upon it closely in relation look forward to continuing debate and I invite right to how we may proceed. hon. and hon. Members to engage positively in it as we 45WH DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) 6 JULY 2010 46WH progress and as further details of our proposals are Child Health (Nottingham) published. We have reflected on the need for and effectiveness of CCTV systems and the DNA database in helping to prevent and detect those crimes that are 12.30 pm of most importance to our constituents, in a way Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): At the that respects their civil liberties and commands their outset, I wish to provide a little context to the debate. confidence and thus supports the police in making us Nottingham is the 13th most deprived authority in all that much safer. a total of 354, according to the Government’s 2007 deprivation index, with 81% of children falling within the first three deprivation deciles. In other words, the vast majority of young people form the poorest third of the population. There are some especially poor pockets of deprivation in the Nottingham constituencies. In my constituency, they can be found in the St Ann’s, Dales and Arboretum wards, and in Hyson Green and Forest Fields, to name only a few places. In September 2009, about 700 young people were not in employment, education or training, the status of another 550 was not known, and 62% of all children lived in households where no adult worked or where earnings were so low that they received benefits or other state assistance. Although I am pleased to have the opportunity to debate child health in Nottingham, it is precisely because of the concentration of problems that afflict so many young people in the city that it was necessary to spend some time on that point. It is important to recognise that much good work is being done, not least by the NHS services in Nottingham, the city council and others. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) is here, because it would not be possible to speak on the topic for more than 60 seconds without mentioning the early intervention approach of One Nottingham, the local strategic partnership that he has pioneered and championed. Breaking the cycle of poverty and poor lifestyle, and preventing problems from worsening or even occurring is critical to ensuring that we make progress. Poor health, particularly poor child health, is not new in Nottingham. I pay tribute to Professors Elizabeth and John Newson— sadly John passed away last Monday—for their groundbreaking work on child health and psychology at Nottingham university. In their famous and influential book of 1963, “Infant care and motherhood in an urban community”, they followed 700 Nottingham families, particularly from the St Ann’s ward, considering the detailed habits of their lives and so forth. I shall briefly review some of the things that affect the city to illustrate the scale of the challenge that we face.

Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): I thank my hon. Friend for raising this important matter on behalf of the city. Will he tell the Minister about Nottingham’s fight-back with a set of early intervention policies that try to break the intergenerational nature of these problems? There is great concern in the city that the pioneering work that we have undertaken, which may go to national level, is now under threat because of the public expenditure cutbacks. We managed 14 early intervention programmes in Nottingham on a shoestring. If that shoestring is snipped, the work that has been started will not last the generation, which is necessary if it is to have its massive impact.

Chris Leslie: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. 47WH Child Health (Nottingham)6 JULY 2010 Child Health (Nottingham) 48WH

[Chris Leslie] not point out that we have had a fall in eight consecutive quarters because of the sort of things that my hon. I shall take the opportunity to pay tribute to some of Friend has pointed out, such as working together in Nottingham’s councillors. Councillors Mike Edwards, partnership, and having clear leadership and lines of David Mellen, Jon Collins and others have been involved accountability. We have fabulous people working on the in ensuring a strong early intervention approach. front line who are pushing down the rates. We also have Partnership work needs to be supported, not a family-nurse partnership which gives intensive health undermined—particularly, in this context, the Nottingham visiting for young mothers, and we are doing many children’s partnership. That partnership’s “think family” other things. I am sure that my hon. Friend will want to approach is holistic and integrated. Like my hon. Friend, pay tribute to those people, particularly the front-line I worry that such preventive partnership work may now workers. be at a high water mark, going down again because of the pressures on those funds. Apart from the NHS, agencies that are not ring-fenced have hitherto put Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend takes the words entirely money into their pooled endeavours; now they will out of my mouth. I was explaining that the problem is naturally and instinctively pull back from those activities, still significant, but thankfully some good progress has and it will be difficult for them to do anything more than been made, particularly through partnership work. That their core work, which will endanger their crucial efforts. crucial support is funded through the working I wish to review some of the key questions that need neighbourhoods fund, but recent Treasury announcements to be tackled. Sadly, there are many of them. Child suggest that Nottingham’s fund will cut by £1.2 million. mental health is important and is often hidden, but The name on the tin—“working neighbourhoods fund”— many young people can be held back by such difficulties does not say what it will do; supporting the programmes because of the behavioural consequences. Studies suggest that help reduce teenage pregnancy is one purpose. It is that as many as one in 10 young children or young incredibly important that we hear about its good work people in Nottingham are diagnosable with some sort as well as about the shocking statistics. of classifiable mental disorder that might require I want to take the opportunity offered by this debate intervention. Apparently, 10% of five-year-olds experience to highlight the issues of poor child dental health. difficulties that cause distress or have other impacts on Although the statistics and methodology of calculating their lives. Nottinghamshire Community Health, along such issues change from time to time, recent reports with the council, has much of the responsibility for suggest that Nottingham children have, on average, safeguarding vulnerable children, and it does incredibly three decayed missing or filled teeth each compared important work. Again, I am worried about the lack of with just over one in typical parts of the rest of England. ring-fencing for other less visible services, particularly Shockingly, in some schools in Nottingham, a few social services. I urge the Minister to assure us that children have been reported to have nearly six missing, social services funding for mental health services will be decayed or filled teeth. Fluoride in toothpaste is improving maintained, because it is incredibly important. matters, but the main factors are still poor diet and On the question of substance misuse, it is estimated nutrition and poor oral hygiene. Although programmes that 3,700 young people in Nottingham under 18 regularly such as the City Smiles dental health promotion programme use class A drugs of one sort of another, but the figure and community-based services have promoted good could be higher. Although the proportion of young oral hygiene and the use of fluoride varnish on teeth, people drinking alcohol has not risen in recent years, it much more still needs to be done. I want the funding for is still far too high when compared with figures for the the City Smiles campaign to be confirmed and redoubled rest of the country. The number of young people whose by the PCT, and I hope that the Minister will pass on carers or parents are involved in drug or alcohol abuse that request. Moreover, we must think about the contentious is high; it is estimated that parental alcohol abuse issue of fluoridation of the water supply. In areas where affects between 10,000 and 20,000 young people in the fluoride is naturally occurring or where it is added, city, which is an incredibly high number. there is some protection against dental decay. Although Smoking is a widespread cause of respiratory problems I cannot claim to be a scientific expert in this area, I among young people. The British Lung Foundation none the less hope that the PCT and the east midlands report, “Invisible lives” suggested that residents in health authority will speed up their review and put Nottingham are 40% more likely to be admitted to some options on the table within the next year if possible. hospital with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease There is not enough time to address all the crucial than the UK average, and respiratory conditions are issues, which include young people leaving care, children among the most commonly reported in children. with learning difficulties and serious disabilities and Another crucial problem is that of teenage pregnancy. how people can access services. I want to pay tribute to By national standards, the figure for Nottingham is still the NHS staff who work so hard in Nottingham. They very high. The latest annual data suggests that, within have recently consolidated the children’s services of local authority boundaries, Nottingham had the ninth City hospital with those of the Queen’s Medical Centre highest rate at nearly one in every 15 teenage girls. to create the Nottingham Children’s hospital at the Again, that is a shocking statistic. Some Nottingham QMC site with 15,000 inpatient occurrences and 50,000 wards have an under-18 conception rate of twice the outpatient contacts taking place annually. The hospital national average; 15 of the 20 wards have rates that are is very strong in renal and urology services, with 13 kidney among the highest 20% for wards in England. transplants taking place last year. It is world renowned for its child integrated cancer services, with 135 children Mr Allen: My hon. Friend is generous in giving way a being treated there in 2009. There are also cystic fibrosis second time. I would be failing in my duty as chair of services and many others. None the less, there is still the teenage pregnancy task force in Nottingham if I did room for improvement. In particular, there is not enough 49WH Child Health (Nottingham)6 JULY 2010 Child Health (Nottingham) 50WH accommodation for parents whose children are in hospital. real terms for front-line health services, but health It is important that young patients have the support of inflation goes far and above the retail prices index plus their family around them. I urge the Minister to find a 0.5%. There will undoubtedly be pressures affecting way to provide capital support for the PCT and the hospital and ancillary services as well. The cuts in hospital to ensure that more bed space is provided. funding for local authorities and other public services—25% I am also concerned to hear that Nottingham’s speech over the next four or five years—are unnecessarily fast and language therapy budgets, which are supported by and steep. Alternative strategies could be used. I fear the PCT, may be squeezed because of the financial that we will jeopardise some of the inroads that we have pressures. Tragically, between 5% and 8% of pre-school made into these problems. I hope that the Minister will children have speech and language problems, so there is do better than his other colleagues in government. a lot of concern about the loss of such resources in the There is a whole range of serious issues affecting child Nottingham area. health in Nottingham, and I urge the Government to I hope that the Minister will address recent policy take them seriously. changes. Childhood obesity and poor nutrition is one of the key underlying causal factors that come up time and 12.47 pm again. A third of 10-year-olds in Nottingham are overweight or on the brink of the obesity category. Tragically, the The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Paul free school meals pilot that had been on the cards has Burstow): It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship now been cancelled. today, Mr Amess; I know you have taken an interest in health debates over the years. I congratulate the hon. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Does Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) on securing my hon. Friend not agree that there are concerns over this debate. He is right to say that he has brought a the cut in the health in pregnancy grant from next serious range of issues to the attention of the House. I January? Such a grant can be used to support breastfeeding applaud him for ensuring that the concern that he and mothers—breastfeeding is vital to children’s health, and his hon. Friends share about improving children’s health results in fewer infections and reduces the likelihood of in Nottingham is kept on the agenda both here in the children developing allergies. It also protects them from House and in Nottingham. the very thing that my hon. Friend was talking about, I am delighted to have the opportunity to respond to which is the likelihood of people becoming obese, this debate and to acknowledge some of the work that developing diabetes and, in the longer term, cardiovascular has already been done by hon. Members in Nottingham. disease. In particular, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) has been a staunch advocate on the subject, Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend is entirely right. It looks and has a good track record both in the House and in as if we will lose not only the opportunity to roll out the local area. The hon. Member for Nottingham East greater nutritional standards through the free school should pay tribute to his leadership, particularly in meals pilot but the £190 health in pregnancy grant. To respect of the teenage pregnancy taskforce, which has me, that was one of the most pernicious, mean-spirited done important pioneering work on early intervention decisions in the Budget. Young mums-to-be need not that has started to make a significant difference. The just warm words but financial support to back up what Government are determined to do everything they can can be an expensive change in lifestyle. Folic acid and to ensure that the lessons learned from the taskforce are fresh fruit and vegetables do not come cheap. It is embedded and sustained as we go forward. important that the support is there. When we consider the other changes in the recent I also want to thank the hon. Member for Nottingham Budget announcement, the Minister needs to explain East for his positive remarks about the work of local how young families can support some of the costs that NHS staff. They are keen to build on the equally strong are involved in healthy lifestyles. I am referring not only relationship they have with him and other hon. Members to the change in the health in pregnancy grant, but to in the area by extending to me an invitation to have the restriction on the maternity allowance to the first discussions with them. A lot of what the hon. Gentleman child only. Not much thought has been given to the has said today was concerned with how we ensure that effect that that will have on siblings. Cots, prams and local services are better aligned with each other and children’s clothes are expensive. Those are all issues collaborating effectively, and that the culture is right to affecting the decent lifestyles of young families in our promote effective joint working. Members have a key city. From next year, the Government will remove the part to play in that process as local community leaders, baby element from the child tax credit and reverse the and we already have an exemplar in that regard: the settlement for one and two-year olds, which was due in hon. Member for Nottingham North. 2012 and 2013. When those measures are combined The hon. Member for Nottingham East cited a lot of with others, such as the freezing of child benefit and, as statistics on this subject that are compelling and in a tangent to that, the removal of the child trust fund, some ways quite depressing. He pointed out that there there is a sense that children’s issues, which cover good is a significant concentration of deprivation and poverty child health, education and well being, are not as far to indicators in parts of his constituency, and across the the front as I would hope. city of Nottingham more generally. Sadly, the map of I have mentioned some exceptionally serious issues poor child health aligns all too readily with the wider and complex health problems. I have run over the key issues of social and economic deprivation. Clearly, there issues that need real action. In particular, I am referring are challenges to be faced in that regard. to the partnership working that my hon. Friend the The local NHS should be congratulated on the progress Member for Nottingham North discussed about. It is it has made, because significant improvements have all very well suggesting that there will be increases in been made in some areas during the last decade. Those 51WH Child Health (Nottingham)6 JULY 2010 Child Health (Nottingham) 52WH

[Mr Paul Burstow] is not all about spending more money. In many cases, it is about spending money more wisely, and the type of areas show that strong, well integrated, well resourced schemes the hon. Member for Nottingham North has and well targeted mainstream services can indeed make led in Nottingham are a case in point. In that way, big all the difference. differences can be made with relatively small amounts We know that there is much more to do in of investment. Nottingham—a point that the primary care trust We need a fresh approach, with a health service that emphasised when I spoke to its representatives yesterday, is more preventive, more integrated, more answerable to ahead of this debate. For example, it reassured me that local communities and more responsive to local needs. children’s health, particularly in the poorest communities, We will say more about that approach in the health will remain a strong priority for the future and that it service White Paper that will be published in the near will continue to invest in local health services as well as future, and which will clearly have an impact on the way contributing strongly to the children and young people’s that health and social care services are delivered in the plan, which is important. I understand that that plan, Nottingham area. which is very important in driving delivery on the ground, will go to the city council in a few weeks’ time. Mr Allen: My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham That culture of strong partnership working is particularly East pointed out that one way we can make small important: we need much more in the way of joined-up amounts of money go a long way is through inventive planning, commissioning and delivery in the future. use of the working neighbourhoods fund or its predecessor, The PCT has reassured me that its priority is continuity, the neighbourhood renewal fund, for example. Sadly, and I hope that that reassures the hon. Members for however, as my hon. Friend pointed out, those funds Nottingham North and for Nottingham East. We want are the first things to go when an organisation starts to ensure that we are pushing ahead in areas where looking at its core operation and contracting inside its progress has been made—there has been progress—and own silo, rather than reaching out in partnership with quickening the pace of improvement elsewhere. The others. That is a problem and the Minister really must Government intend to support such efforts and to address it. ensure that the work that has been started on early intervention and prevention is not lost or thrown aside, Mr Burstow: It is a challenge, and one that both the but is seen as an essential investment. In truth, that Government and local organisations understand. When work is not a waste of resources but unlocks resources; we publish the White Paper, I hope the hon. Gentleman to stop it would indeed be a false economy. Therefore, will see that we are addressing that challenge in a very we want to ensure that the poorest communities can get direct way, to ensure that every pound the taxpayer the well targeted services, run by confident and assertive invests in our health service really delivers the maximum staff, that they need. possible benefit for the communities it is meant to serve. Reference has been made to spending pressures. Those The hon. Member for Nottingham East raised a pressures existed before this Government came into number of specific points and I want to address as office; indeed, the last Government acknowledged that many as possible in the time remaining. On child and the deficit presented a significant challenge to the public adolescent mental health services, he said that up to one sector, including the health service. Indeed, they mapped in 10 young people in Nottingham are diagnosed with out the challenge that would have to be faced. Through mental health problems. Clearly, deprivation, isolation our first, emergency Budget, the new Government have and exclusion are often the harbingers of poor mental recognised that to not act promptly would be to fail to health, and children living in poverty are frequently the deal with the difficulties and the legacy we inherited. In worst hit. That carries a cost of the sort the hon. failing to reduce the deficit, we would not only endanger Gentleman talked about—one borne not only by those the whole economy but some of the most vulnerable children personally but by the wider community. The people in our communities, through an inability to hon. Gentleman was therefore right to talk about the secure sustainable public investment in key services. So vital role that children’s mental health services play. The the decisions we have made, some of which have children and young people’s plan is focused, rightly, on undoubtedly been painful, are absolutely essential if we greater prevention and earlier intervention. I can therefore are to deliver the sustainable economy and growth that assure him that this Government attach a very high we all need, and the support that is essential to ensure priority to early intervention, preventive mental health that services continue to develop. services and public mental health services; they are very However, as part of making those tough choices, the important to us. Government took the decision to protect the NHS and The children and young people’s plan also aims to to secure real-terms increases each year for the duration stop young people experiencing behavioural problems, of this Parliament. The hon. Member for Nottingham mental illness, substance misuse and low educational East was right to say that that does not mean it will all achievement. Again, that requires a confident and well be plain sailing from now on; there will be difficulties equipped work force who bring together skills across and challenges ahead, and there are real pressures on the statutory and third sectors. I understand that the the NHS budget. However, we do not believe that the local NHS and the local council plan to improve the sick should pay the price for the debt crisis, and this training and development of staff in dealing with such funding will enable the NHS in Nottingham to continue behavioural problems. improving services. The hon. Gentleman asked about smoking, which I That does not necessarily mean “more of the same”. acknowledge is an important issue that we need to keep One of the lessons that I took from last week’s National a clear focus on. I understand that work is progressing Audit Office report on health inequalities is that success in that field that is targeted at reducing smoking during 53WH Child Health (Nottingham) 6 JULY 2010 54WH pregnancy. He also talked about the work that has been Newark Hospital done on teenage pregnancy in Nottingham. He is right to say that we should applaud the fact that the teenage pregnancy rate in Nottingham has fallen for eight 1pm consecutive quarters. The rate in Nottingham was among Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): I am most grateful the highest not only in the UK but in Europe. Clearly, that you are chairing this important debate, Mr Amess. the rate is now going in a different direction—one Nottinghamshire is getting a good outing this morning. secured by the integration of services and effective I hope that the local press appreciate it; it is not at all leadership on the ground. However, the figures remain laid on for their benefit. I thank the Minister for being stubbornly high, and we need to ensure that there is here. It shows a degree of commitment from his Department more effort and focus on reducing them. The local PCT as well as from him personally. Not only did he give up has reassured me that a number of schemes it is taking his time to make his first ministerial visit to Newark forward, such as the C-card scheme and various other hospital when I asked him, he is also here today. I thank initiatives involving sexual health services, are being him personally for the great interest and acumen that he maintained. By way of reinforcement, reducing teenage is showing. I also thank the hon. Members who are here pregnancy will be a feature of the joined-up working in support. My local paper, the Newark Advertiser,is produced by the children and young people’s plan. interested in the issue and has been supportive, and the The hon. Gentleman cited statistics on dental health “Save Newark Hospital” campaign has been immensely that were even more stark than those I was presented helpful. with by my officials, including on schools that reported This subject is extremely important in my constituency. having pupils with six teeth that were either missing, I will not say that it divides public opinion, because it decayed or filled. In fact, the latest figures show a does not. It is quite simple: I cannot find a single person slightly different and hopefully better picture. They in Newark who does not support the development suggest that five-year-olds in the Nottingham city area and further expansion of the services of a vibrant and have, on average, 1.73 decayed, missing or filled teeth. successful hospital in a town due to grow by many That places the city’s PCT as the 31st worst performer thousands over the next five to 10 years. The issue does on that indicator, whereas it was the second worst the not divide the town; everybody agrees that we need a last time such figures were published. That figure of proper, developing and expanding hospital. 1.73 compares with an average figure of 1.11 for five- year-olds for the whole country. The hon. Gentleman is A health care review began 18 months ago, entitled therefore right to say that more needs to be done about “Help to shape the future of Newark’s NHS”. As a oral health and hygiene in Nottingham. The City Smiles sitting Member, I realised that the three elements programme will certainly continue to play an important involved—Nottinghamshire County primary care trust, part in that work. On the direct provision of dental Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and health services in Nottingham, the hon. Gentleman will the East Midlands ambulance service—needed my be pleased to know that two new dental practices will responsible and sensible support if we were to improve open in October, in Bulwell and Bilborough, which will health service in a town that is growing exponentially. obviously improve access to such services. He also talked The process made good progress, but recently we about fluoridation. Clearly, such matters are to be decided have run into trouble. The subject, quite rightly, became upon locally, but I will pass his comments on to my extremely contentious and difficult during the election ministerial colleagues. campaign, and is now attracting more and more energy The hon. Gentleman also spoke about funding for as people become more concerned about what is going speech and language therapy. When I talked to on. One or two mendacious suggestions that the hospital representatives of the local PCT yesterday, they certainly would close were made during the campaign. I do not gave no indication of any intention or plan to cut those believe that the hospital will close under this Administration services. I can assure him that I asked the PCT a lot of or any other, nor should it, so we can put that suggestion questions in preparation for this debate. However, if I to one side. Those in the town of Newark who hope to am misinformed on this subject, I will certainly write to frighten individuals with it are both irresponsible and him to give him further details. mendacious, but things become difficult when one sees the health care review document—it also says that You, Mr Amess, will know about the importance of Newark hospital will not close, which is fine—which the issue of obesity, as we both served on the Health says: Committee when it produced a report on obesity some “Some services will change, some will be added.” years ago. Again, the local PCT has told me that it will continue its work on the active schools programme, If we pitch against that the changes that have occurred, which encourages more children to take up sporting we can understand the perception in my constituency. activities. First, we are going to lose our accident and emergency ward. I know that and accept it, but it is alarming to the I am afraid I will probably run out of time shortly, people of Newark. I will return to that issue in a but the hon. Gentleman has certainly given us a run-around moment. We have already lost the Friary ward; I will the important issues that this Government will continue return to that in a moment as well. The blood classification to maintain a clear focus on. We see delivery on those service has been alienated. Pharmacy services have been issues being provided by effective local leadership, effective closed. All sorts of dilemmas exist about the protocols integration of commissioning and provision, and good under which ambulances work: for instance, if a child is leadership from politicians nationally and locally. By knocked over within sight of Newark hospital, the doing that, we believe we can improve the nation’s ambulance that picks up that child will not take the health. child to Newark hospital. Nor should it—Newark hospital cannot cope with injured children—but it is hard for a 55WH Newark Hospital6 JULY 2010 Newark Hospital 56WH

[Patrick Mercer] The next test, however, is that proposed changes must strengthen public and patient engagement. I seek an parent who can see the hospital not to wonder why his assurance from the Minister about patients, members of or her child is being taken to Lincoln, King’s Mill or the public, all local GPs and particularly the staff of Mansfield hospitals or to Sutton in Ashfield, for instance. Newark hospital, who have been enormously supportive, It is a difficult matter of perception. Furthermore, we helpful and loyal to their organisation. A horrible rumour were recently told that another ward would be closed. I circulated in town that staff had been gagged from think that my constituents feel that they have been talking to the press or the Minister. I am sure that the misled rather than informed by the process. Minister would agree that during his visit last Thursday, We have had a healthy debate among the three different not only did we hear some extremely articulate individuals factions and various town campaigns, but if the Minister but members of staff were not restricted at all. They will bear with me for a few moments, I would like to and their opinions are terribly important. Will staff at apply to what is happening in Newark the four crucial Newark hospital be included in all decisions on the tests laid down by the Health Secretary for the improvement future of the hospital? I ask the Minister how we can of health services throughout the country. I repeat that achieve that, because clearly we are anxious to help with a lot of it is a matter of perception. Ambulances were the process. never going to take children to Newark hospital. However, The next question I ask the Minister comes under the why that has not been properly explained to my constituents, same heading of strengthening public and patient who continue to think that ambulances could do so, is a engagement. I absolutely accept his point that the process wholly different matter. I have no doubt that the Minister, has to be led from the bottom up—it must be led from who is nodding in agreement, understands that as well the grass roots and must not be top down and dictated as I. from the top. I know that the Government are committed The first of the four crucial tests is that changes to maintaining front-line services, but will the Minister should have the support of GP commissioners. Let us assure me that services at my local hospital will not be test the closure of the accident and emergency ward at reduced or diminished for acute and sub-acute patients? Newark hospital. Anybody who bothers to lift the stone I understand that change has to occur—I am not being and look underneath will understand that Newark has a stick-in-the-mud about this; I am trying to be as not had an A and E ward for as long as I can remember. helpful as I can—but that question is crucial. As I have There is no debate about whether it should; it meets said, not only has the Friary ward been closed, but there none of the criteria. Therefore, the sign is clearly misleading is word that another 30 beds will be taken away. That is and unhelpful, and it must go. However, Newark sits at the equivalent of another ward. If we lose that number an extremely important point on the A1, near the of beds, my worry is that very shortly Newark hospital dualling of the A46 and the east coast railway line, will become nothing more than a cottage hospital. That where there is massive potential for large-scale injuries. is the last thing I want, so I ask the Minister to deal with If the Potters Bar crash happened in Newark, as it that question. might, Newark hospital could not cope with that many accident and emergency cases. Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Does my hon. Friend recognise that Newark hospital is important to However, we need something better than what is not only his constituents, but the constituents of Sherwood proposed. I am told—although I treat this with a certain and Bassetlaw? It is particularly important to people amount of scepticism—that GPs are strongly behind who live in villages to the east of the A614, many of the idea of having a minor injuries unit plus rather than whom prefer to use the services at Newark rather than an A and E ward. I cannot describe how irritating that travel to the Queen’s medical centre or to King’s Mill is, not only to me but to the people of Newark. Most hospital. will accept that A and E has no place at Newark hospital, but most believe, and indicated during the Patrick Mercer: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for consultation process, that we need an urgent care centre, that intervention and I congratulate him on his tremendous ward or similar at Newark hospital where people can go success at the election, although I regret the departure to receive the care that they need. I believe that that will of his predecessor, who was a close friend of mine. I be provided, so it does not matter much; we are really completely agree: the hospital’s influence extends far arguing about what the notice should say. However, I beyond Newark. Once the A46 is dualled—heaven help say to the Minister that if we do not get an urgent care us if that is cancelled—it becomes even more important ward, centre or whatever, it will spread unnecessary that the hospital can provide a quick and urgent service alarm and despondency in Newark. The title “minor to people in the Sherwood constituency. I absolutely injuries unit” suggests cuts and bruises or coughs and accept his point. sneezes, which is unacceptable and similarly misleading to the public. The third crucial test is that of greater local clarity and the need to have a clinical evidence base for any Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust proposals that will be made. In the light of that, it is says that it supports proposed that patients are treated at Lincoln hospital’s “the provision of an ‘urgent care, minor illnesses and minor accident and emergency department instead of Newark’s. injuries service’ at Newark Hospital, as agreed by local clinicians The patient safety record at Lincoln hospital is worse and supported by the majority of local people during the formal than at Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation consultation process” Trust. Can the Minister shed some light on the matter and wishes of patient safety, because I want my constituents, or “to ensure that the name of the new unit clearly describes the anyone who is injured, to go to the best possible place? breadth of services provided and ensures that patients access If such a situation exists, can we have some explanation services in the right place, at the right time, first time.” for that proposal? 57WH Newark Hospital6 JULY 2010 Newark Hospital 58WH

The last test is that proposals should take account of I would like to take this opportunity to outline briefly patient choice. Many in the town of Newark would say the Government’s approach to service reconfiguration. that the consultation process was faulty and was not We believe that the best decisions are local decisions, properly delivered. A number of proposals were clearly and that change should be driven by local clinicians, not supported by everybody who responded to the process imposed by politicians or decided by managers behind and therefore my fourth, and almost my last, question closed doors. The Secretary of State has identified four to the Minister—I am sorry if I am burdening him with crucial tests that all reconfigurations must now pass. tedious matters—is whether he will investigate the closure First, they should have the support of GP commissioners; of the Friary ward, which is our local psycho-geriatric secondly, arrangements for public and patient engagement, ward, and consider whether it might be reopened in the including local authorities, should be strengthened; thirdly, future. We have been told that the Friary ward has only there should be greater clarity about the clinical evidence been closed temporarily and that we will get psycho-geriatric base underpinning any proposals; and fourthly, any services back in the near future. It is crucial that that proposals should take into account the need to develop happens. and support patient choice. I respect and understand those four points. The difficulty To ensure the long-term future and sustainability of is that Newark lies right on the edge of Nottinghamshire health service provision in Newark, a range of NHS and Lincolnshire. In theory, we have excellent services in the area have been reviewed. Those include communications in all four directions, but if we have a unplanned and emergency care as well as in-patient national health service based on centres of excellence in dementia care. I understand that clinicians from primary places such as Lincoln, Sutton-in-Ashfield and Nottingham, and secondary care are in unanimous agreement that we obviously need communication from Newark to Newark hospital cannot provide a full accident and those centres of excellence. I understand that we cannot emergency service—I am grateful to see my hon. Friend have one of the several hospitals in Nottingham inside nodding in agreement to that. They have concluded Newark, but we must have an ambulance service that is that, for the sake of patient safety, the hospital should capable of getting our injured or routinely sick to no longer care for patients with acute medical conditions. centres of excellence quickly, efficiently and calmly. I The hospital should also be named more accurately to have received a number of reassurances from the ambulance avoid public confusion, ensuring that patients go to the service that those improvements are in hand, but I right place first time and are not put at additional and would be grateful to the Minister if he could dilate unnecessary risk by going as a first destination to a unit upon that a little more. Can he reassure me that we will that is not able to look after their degree of injury. have an ambulance service that is fit for the 21st century, The main reasons for that are as follows. First, every which can deal with the increasing number of people tier 1 accident and emergency department needs an who live inside the town? intensive care unit, emergency operating theatres and You will be relieved to hear that I have almost finished, 24/7 anaesthetics to provide back up for the A&E and Mr Amess. I understand that we must have demonstrably acute medical conditions. Unfortunately, Newark does better outcomes for patients and that we must ensure not have those and has not had them. Secondly, acute they receive the highest-quality specialist care in specialist emergencies require specialist skills, which are not and centres. I understand that, in many cases, it is better to have not been available in Newark. Thirdly, doctors treat people at home rather than in hospitals. I am not agree that avoidable transfers are associated with poorer being narrow minded or reactionary about this, but so health outcomes and worse patient experiences. In 2009/10, much of the process has been badly presented to the the PCT reports, a significant number of patients had public, to health care professionals and to patients. If to be transferred, many due to a deterioration in their only we could have some clarity on the matter and I condition. could see clearly that the four tests set by the Secretary The local NHS ran a consultation exercise earlier this of State were being met, I would be a lot happier. The year to garner the views of local people. The majority matter is crucial to Newark, which sits on the edge of were in favour of changes to urgent and emergency two different local authority areas, and I am extremely services at Newark hospital. I know that there is a view, grateful to the Minister for the time he has taken to visit expressed by some campaigners, that the consultation the town. However, a strong and vibrant outcome from was rushed, too small to be properly representative of this process would assure Newark that it does not just the local community’s views and that the full implications sit on the edge of everything; it lies in the heart of the of the review have not been sufficiently drawn out. The east midlands, which is exactly where it ought to lie. NHS must not take local support for granted and must continue to engage fully with clinicians, the public and the council’s overview and scrutiny committee. If a 1.16 pm consultation is inadequate, it must be improved and The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon should provide as much relevant information as possible. Burns): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for The overview and scrutiny committee continues to review Newark (Patrick Mercer) on securing this important the implementation of planned changes, which is essential debate on the future of Newark hospital. As he said, I to help to ensure democratic scrutiny. was fortunate enough to visit the hospital last week. I The strategic health authority has told me that was extremely grateful to have the opportunity to do so Nottinghamshire County PCT engaged with the overview and I was particularly struck by the enthusiasm and and scrutiny committee throughout the Newark review dedication of all the staff and management I had the and that evidence of that engagement was presented at privilege of meeting during that visit. I fully understand the PCT board meeting on 17 June. Yesterday, the PCT my hon. Friend’s desire to ensure his constituents have met with the overview and scrutiny committee to decide the best possible health services. My visit last week the next steps. I understand that it does not intend to proved extremely useful in understanding the issues there. refer the proposals to the Secretary of State. 59WH Newark Hospital6 JULY 2010 Newark Hospital 60WH

[Mr Simon Burns] There is also scope for Newark hospital to undertake more planned surgery, such as hip and knee replacements. I will turn now to one of the problems with the I know that that is being explored by the Sherwood reconfiguration: the naming of the unit that will deal Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and the PCT. with injuries, which my hon. Friend mentioned. It is of It is also important to note the important role that course important that the facility at Newark hospital is Newark hospital plays in rehabilitating patients who are appropriately named. I know that some people would well enough to leave the facilities at Lincoln and Nottingham prefer it to be known as a minor injuries-plus unit, while and can continue their care closer to home. Those others would prefer to call it an urgent care centre. As proposals would also see an out-of-hours GP service he will appreciate, it is not for me to intervene in that available on site, which I hope my hon. Friend will issue in a top-down manner. The choice of a name must welcome, as patients who wish to see a GP after midnight be agreed locally and should clearly reflect the nature of currently have to travel up to 20 miles to see one in the facility, so I hope that the matter can be resolved Mansfield. locally through ongoing discussions. I am aware that the local press have reported that On A and E services, I understand that Newark Newark hospital is being downgraded. The trust has hospital has never had a full A and E department. made it clear that there are no plans whatever to downgrade Confusion has arisen in part because there is an A and the hospital. Rather, the plan is to make it fit for E sign outside the building, but that does not reflect the purpose and safe for patients. The trust also assures me nature of the services provided inside. Having a local A that it is fully committed to Newark hospital and has no and E department on one’s doorstep can feel reassuring, plans to close it. Rather, it sees the hospital as an but the reality is that receiving the best care does not integral part of local health services. I hope that that always mean being taken to the nearest hospital. Some goes some way towards reassuring my hon. Friend and patients might be treated at the scene and others might his constituents. be taken to Newark for treatment, but those who have He also mentioned Friary ward, which was temporarily suffered major trauma will be best served by being closed by Nottinghamshire Health Care Trust to assess taken directly to specialist units, receiving care en route how it can best be used in future. I gather that demand to the hospital that has the most suitable facilities. for the ward, which has 15 beds, had dwindled to two The proposed changes aim to solidify the existing patients. More people need to be cared for in their own protocols on diverting acute patients to more appropriate homes, as I suspect many patients would prefer, if that hospitals, ensuring that patients go to the right place is medically and clinically feasible. I will certainly write the first time and are not put at additional and unnecessary to him with more details on what is happening at Friary risk. I understand that the parents of a young child ward and what will happen as a result of the trust’s recently turned up at Newark hospital A and E, incorrectly assessment of the future of that part of the hospital’s assuming—understandably—that it was a full A and E activities. department, and the child’s care was delayed as a result. On the concerns about the public consultation, the I stress my earlier point about the importance of naming evidence I have been given indicates that there was a full the unit correctly so that local people can understand engagement with the local community about the proposals easily what it does and does not do. I am pleased that that were put out to consultation prior to decisions during October and November there will be a public being reached, although there will always be differences education process in Newark to explain exactly what of opinion. I have no evidence to show that that was not the unit does and where patients should go in the first a satisfactory and wholehearted consultation, even though instance, either to Newark or to another hospital, for I accept that some people remain unconvinced by the appropriate treatment when injured. proposals before the trust. In conclusion, local health services will need to evolve Patrick Mercer: Would the Minister be kind enough and become more efficient, in line with current Government to inform the relevant authorities that I would very policy. If we want to take people with us, we must much like to be involved in that work? The whole ensure that they have full confidence in the decisions process has been marred by poor communication and being taken and feel that their voices are properly bad consultation, so I would be happy to help in any heard. That is what the new arrangements are about. way I can. That will not always be easy, but if it is clear, transparent and led locally by clinicians, and if it listens and responds Mr Burns: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend to the voices of local people, it will help to reduce the and am sure that there is a role for him to play in anxiety my hon. Friend has spoken about today and on helping his constituents in the education process and which he has so eloquently campaigned over the past explaining fully the role of the unit so that it receives few months for the people of Newark. The commitment appropriate admissions in future. and tenacity he has shown in fighting for local health On the running down of services at Newark, we must services is commendable, and I know that he will continue be careful not to do the local NHS a disservice through to engage constructively with the local NHS to ensure idle talk about the future of the hospital. The proposals that his constituents’ concerns are properly heard. focus on giving patients access to safe care for urgent I trust that something can be done through continued conditions. The people of Newark will continue to dialogue between all parties, including my hon. Friend, access Newark hospital if that is the most clinically to resolve satisfactorily the differences of opinion on appropriate place for their treatment. There will be an the name of the unit so that there is no confusion about increased availability of same-day or next-day outpatient where his constituents should go if they or their family appointments for patients who GPs believe require urgent members are involved in an accident and that they get assessment. If a diagnostic test such as an X-ray is the quickest and finest health care possible in the most required, that will be done at the same time. appropriate setting. 61WH 6 JULY 2010 Community Policing 62WH

Community Policing the community beat manager system, and I now have a list of community beat managers for particular wards 1.30 pm on my wall and know who to contact directly when an issue arises. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure as always Community beat managers do not, of course, operate to appear before you, Mr Amess. I welcome the Minister, on their own. The Police Reform Act 2002 introduced the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick police community support officers, who have also been Herbert), and congratulate him on his appointment. extremely effective in helping to improve policing on the ground. I think that that Act is inspired legislation The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): because I see exceptional police community support Right honourable. officers operating in Wrexham, individuals whose commitment goes way beyond that which is set out in Ian Lucas: I do beg his pardon—the right hon. Member their contracts. They are now an essential component of for Arundel and South Downs. In that case, I will a successful criminal justice system. They function as an congratulate him even more. He has always been civil in early warning system and as a community service, working his dealings with me. I am sure that we will cross swords, as a team to safeguard the communities within which if not today then in the future, but I welcome him and they operate. congratulate him on his elevated status. In Wrexham, we go even beyond the people who get I try to keep it quiet in this place that many years ago paid to police. We have an unusual, albeit developing, I was a solicitor in private practice. It is often not a group of people, who work hard to assist the criminal good idea to advertise the fact that one is a lawyer. I justice system. We have special constables, as do many worked as a solicitor in criminal law in north Wales in other places, but we also have a group called street the late 1980s and the 1990s and, as policing is one pastors. I am not sure if the Minister is aware of these public service that has improved beyond all recognition individuals. In Wrexham, they are a group that is linked in the past ten to 15 years, I regret that in those days to local Churches and which has functioned for about I considered that it was not of the standard that it three years. They work particularly at weekends, when should be. the town centre gets a little livelier than even the Strangers Bar does on occasions. There must be about 30 street Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I congratulate pastors operating with the police in Wrexham, and their my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does he agree calming influence is effective in taking the heat out of with me that North Wales police is one of the most incidents that could lead to the commission of crime. successful police forces in the country, and has the lowest crime rate? As I was preparing for this debate, I looked at the national Street Pastors website and saw an example of Ian Lucas: My hon. Friend is already stealing some of exactly the type of thing that happens. Someone posted my speech. He is well aware of the vast progress that has a thank you on the website, and happened to refer to been made in north Wales, through an effective, successful Wrexham. Sometimes these things are meant: and engaged police force. When I was first elected to “My 20-year-old daughter is in her 3rd year at Chester Uni, this House in 2001, it was not unusual for councillors to training to be a Children’s Nurse. Last night she went out into have very little contact with their local police service. Wrexham with 3 of her friends to celebrate passing all her exams and assignments and to look forward to her last and final year of There were certainly no structures in place to enable training. On leaving the nightclub in the ‘early hours’, the 4 girls local communities, through councils, to work effectively were all ‘shoe-less’ from dancing and celebrating all night, and all with the police service. I am pleased to say that the a little ‘worse for wear’! This morning she presented me with a Crime and Disorder Act 1998 put in place the building pair of purple flip flops. She told me that when the girls left the blocks for that to change, and local authorities and club they were greeted by some Christians, who gave them the flip police services now work together to combat crime. It is flops to walk to the taxi rank, fastened their shoes around their extraordinary that before that date there was so little necks and were ‘very kind’. I am writing to say THANK YOU SO engagement between those two large public sector MUCH. Your Street Pastor Scheme is fantastic.” organisations, at a time when criminal behaviour issues The street pastors in Wrexham are all volunteers, and were one of the most common reasons for constituents they work very closely with the police and the community visiting my office. support officers to make the streets of Wrexham even The establishment of community safety partnerships—as safer. we call them in Wales—created a forum within which Much of the credit for the success of community the general public, councillors, police officers and others policing in Wrexham should go to a recently retired involved in the criminal justice system could work together, inspector whom I would like to mention by name: identifying problems of concern to the local community Inspector Chris Beasley. He worked extremely hard in and devising actions to address those problems. One Wrexham and was always very open to new ideas, such major step was the establishment of a system of community as flip-flops and street pastors. He was receptive and beat managers. I seem to recall that north Wales was imaginative in his policing, and as a result established a ahead of the game on that, establishing community tremendous reputation in the town. We are very proud beat managers responsible for council wards. The managers of the police service that we have built up over many were identified police officers, who, it was hoped, would years in Wrexham, and also more broadly in north stay in place for about three years and get to know the Wales. area they were policing very well. When I was first elected, if a crime-related issue was raised in my surgery Chris Ruane: My hon. Friend rightly sings the praises I often had difficulty finding a point of contact in the of his constituency and his county. Is he aware that local police. That all changed with the establishment of Denbighshire, where my constituency is located, is the 63WH Community Policing6 JULY 2010 Community Policing 64WH

[Chris Ruane] What I would like from the Minister is an assurance that the Government believe in community policing. A third best of the 376 crime and disorder reduction statement to that effect, at the outset, would be useful. partnerships in England and Wales? That is partly The budget reductions floated at the present time—whether down to the legislation that our Labour Government 25% or 40%, or even if they are less than 25%—will introduced, partly down to the funding, and partly clearly have a major impact. That chief constable’s down to the excellent co-operative working that we have statistic about more than 80% of his budget being spent in Denbighshire. on staffing is very relevant. How does the Minister see the budget being reduced to the extent discussed by the Ian Lucas: If I was not aware of that before, I Government without a reduction in the number of certainly am now. My hon. Friend is always full of police officers? Also, what is the Government’s view of imaginative ways of intervening and promoting his the future of community support officers? Do the constituency, as he has just done. Government anticipate a reduction in the number of I have set out the excellent work that has been done, CSOs? If so, who will be responsible for dealing with but my concern is about the future. The extension of them and who will make the decision to make them community policing has taken place against a backcloth redundant, if that is to happen? of increased investment in our police service, including We have heard that there has been major progress in an increase in the number of police officers, the introduction policing in north Wales. Through the Crime and Disorder of community support officers, and Home Office support Act 1998 and community safety partnerships, we have for the street pastors scheme. Unfortunately, under the established effective structures that have led to a diminution Tory-Lib Dem Government, that support has already and lessening of crime in the communities that we been reduced. represent. A major impact has been not just on the Today the newspapers in north Wales carry details of commission of crime but on the social atmosphere an interview with the local chief constable, who talked in an area. of the £1.4 million reduction in this year’s budget, One of the best ways of creating cost in the criminal which has already happened for north Wales. He says justice system is to allow criminality to rise. A rise in that crime means a strain on prison budgets, effectively “the suggestion from David Cameron is that this could be increased increasing the cost of crime. More pressure will be put to 40 per cent over the next four years. This would mean cuts of on Government budgets if the successful anti-crime £30 million coming out of our budget.” strategy pursued in the past is jettisoned. He goes on: I therefore appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, the “Eighty-two per cent of our money is spent on staff so even if Minister, who is a sensible man and who knows a good we stopped using computers and walked everywhere we would have to cut staff numbers.” success story when he sees one, to fight his corner against the Treasury, and to say to them, “Let’s look at Those staff are the community beat managers and the effective way of reducing cost in the criminal justice community support officers that I mentioned. Those system.” The most effective way, I venture, is to reduce individuals have achieved the progress in policing and crime in the first place—something achieved under the in making safe the communities that I represent over Labour Government since 1997. The reduction of crime the past decade. I am, therefore, extremely concerned to has meant that fewer people are causing more cost to hear my chief constable saying that he cannot deal with the system. Effectively, progress in the creation of the proposed reductions in expenditure without getting community policing—one of the great success stories of rid of some of that staffing. the last Labour Government—should be continued, so That is a major concern, but not just from me—I am that the people that I represent feel safe in their communities already receiving representations from councillors in and so that we do not go back to the bad old days when my constituency. My good colleague Councillor Michael no one knew who the local constable was and no one Williams of Gwersyllt has told me that good work in knew where to go when crime was committed. combating antisocial behaviour in his ward is under threat. He tells me that already community beat managers 1.44 pm are not being replaced. He represents a community of up to 10,500 people who now have only one community The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): beat manager, whereas previously they had two. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate and thank him for his kind words. I appreciate Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): Would the hon. his long interest in policing matters, as a constituency Gentleman agree that, if we reduce some bureaucracy, Member of Parliament and generally, and the passion we might get more time on the beat? The expenditure and commitment with which he talked about community might not, necessarily, have the impact he suggests. policing. I welcome the opportunity to respond to him specifically and to set out in more general terms the Ian Lucas: The hon. Gentleman makes what is always Government’s approach to community policing and to an important point: no one wants to create bureaucracy. the considerable challenge that we must face. However, the chief constable tells me that he will have The hon. Gentleman spoke first about the importance to let staff go because of the proposals and that is why I of partnership in tackling crime—how the police are quoted him directly. Of course we want to create less involved in a partnership approach and the value of his bureaucracy—no one enjoys bureaucracy—but we need local community safety partnership. I am very happy to to take the professional opinions of chief officers seriously agree entirely with him. I believe that one of successes or we will threaten the way in which policing has of the past few years is that local partnerships can be developed so successfully. We do not want to undermine effective in helping to fight crime and in dealing what is, essentially, a success story. with offenders. 65WH Community Policing6 JULY 2010 Community Policing 66WH

Challenges for us include ensuring that, at a time of The hon. Gentleman asked whether I knew about fiscal retrenchment, local partners continue to accept Street Pastors. Yes, I do. I have seen them in action. I their responsibilities and engage with those partnerships, went out with Portsmouth police a couple of weeks ago and that, at a local level, they are operating without to look at the problems that they have policing the bureaucracy, are action-oriented and problem-solving, so-called night time economy. Street pastors were engaged and are not make-work organisations. At their best, the with police officers as part of the presence on the community safety partnerships have helped in the fight streets, doing an important job dealing with people who against crime. needed help and preventing the police from being diverted from law enforcement duties. As part of the volunteering I would be interested to hear more from the hon. mix, and as part of the wider police family, street Gentleman, formally and informally, about the effectiveness pastors play a real and important role, which I understand of his local partnership and how he thinks it might be the hon. Gentleman values locally. improved. I am very much looking at such matters at the moment, as part of our police reform agenda. I The hon. Gentleman mentioned the importance of appreciate and value the contribution of partnerships, local leadership and singled out Inspector Beasley for recognising that the police cannot fight crime alone—the having led the increase in confidence in neighbourhood engagement of other agencies at the local level is required. policing in his constituency. I understand how important it is to find local leaders like that, who commit to local Secondly, the hon. Gentleman talked about the value policing and build confidence in the local community. of community beat managers and about longevity—people Last week I met a highly motivated Inspector in Greater knowing who their local police officers are and having Manchester police who has been involved over a long constables out on the beat, with such officers staying in period in building neighbourhood policing in a difficult their communities and not moving on. I know from my part of Greater Manchester—the Gorton estate—where own constituency how much attachment people have to crime has been a significant problem. Much has flowed that. If there is one thing that the public ask for—it is from his commitment and enthusiasm, his dedication to the people’s priority—it is to see police officers out on the area and his determination to bring policing partners the streets. We have to recognise that front-line policing together, get people around the table and get the community is broader than just community policing—the police do involved. It is important to ensure that such motivation other important things, such as response policing—but is encouraged. It is a challenge for chief constables to the North Wales police currently receive £3.3 million ensure that they are retaining and recruiting such talented specifically for neighbourhood policing. police officers. The hon. Gentleman also talked about the importance of community support officers, as part of the mix of the Ian Lucas: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree—I available and visible policing in communities. At 30 think he does—that one failing of politicians in the past September 2009, there were 158 police community support is that we have not promoted sufficiently the good work officers in the north Wales area. I believe that PCSOs done in community policing? There was a time when have been an important innovation which has extended community policing was not regarded as being at the the police family. I disagree with those who reject the forefront of policing work. I am glad to hear that the contribution that PCSOs can make. In my constituency, Minister thinks that that has changed. but also around the country, I have seen the added value that they can bring: a police presence and offering reassurance in neighbourhoods, well supplemented by Nick Herbert: I agree. There was a move away from the wider responsibilities that a neighbourhood policing community policing in the past and we forgot the team has to fulfil. fundamental principles on which policing in this country was founded. We have now returned to an understanding The fact that PCSOs are not fully empowered is far of the importance of neighbourhood policing, backed from being a disadvantage, and can be an advantage in with significant resources. I commend the previous keeping them with a near-permanent presence out on Government for moving in that direction, which was a the streets, rather than being tied up by other duties. return to the kind of policing that the public want to The hon. Gentleman asked me about PCSOs. We certainly see, although it sometimes took a certain amount of want to see PCSOs continuing as part of the policing time for opinion in policing circles to follow.Neighbourhood family. policing was regarded by some as a kind of add-on—an PCSOs are not the only members of the policing accessory that did not necessarily help in the fight family. The hon. Gentleman could have mentioned against crime, or something that they felt they ought to special officers and their contribution as volunteers. do. It is important that we value neighbourhood policing, There is still untapped potential in the recruitment of and important that effective neighbourhood policing is specialists. Significantly, in the 1950s, there were more celebrated. than 67,000 specials nationally, partly as a legacy of the The hon. Gentleman is concerned about funding. I war—now there are 14,000. Steps have been taken to understand that. There are two main issues to do with improve the recruitment of specials in recent years, but ongoing funding. First, the Government have had to the number is still far lower than it used to be. As part of announce funding changes in-year as part of the our big society agenda we should consider how to contribution to reducing the fiscal deficit and to paying encourage volunteering to a greater extent. I have talked down the deficit by £6 billion. The Home Office took a to a number of specials. I gave the awards at the disproportionate share, in terms of the savings that we National Policing Improvement Agency specials awards made in the Home Office centrally and in the central ceremony a few weeks ago, and it really came home to policing bodies. Nevertheless, police forces, which represent me just how much specials can add to the mix of the lion’s share of the Home Office’s spending, had to policing. There is potential for expansion in that regard. play some part, so we asked them to reduce their 67WH Community Policing6 JULY 2010 Community Policing 68WH

[Nick Herbert] will look again at the police performance framework, which is administered by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of spending in-year. The reduction is less than 1.5% of constabulary, to ensure that police officers can be free what police forces are spending this year, but it is a to do the job that we want them to do, and we want to challenge because they have to make an in-year saving. reduce costs, which are considerable, in terms of compliance However, most chief constables—I have discussed this with all the top-down targetry that exists. with them collectively, including the chief constable of Considerable savings can be driven out of police North Wales—understand that it has to be done. We forces and they can make savings individually and have been urging them to do everything possible to collectively. We are working with ACPO to look at how protect the front line and to make the savings in efficiencies that will be possible and what role the Government can of the kind that we have made in the Home Office: play in securing those savings. I assure the hon. Gentleman cutting wasteful expenditure and bearing down on things that, although policing is entering challenging times, we that do not need to have money spent on them, so that are committed to ensuring that, as far as possible, police they can retain recruitment and protect those front line officers will remain visible and available in their services that are so important. communities. We understand that that is what the public North Wales police had a £1.2 million cut in revenue want. and capital spending, but the force will still receive £900,00 more than it received last year and its overall Ian Lucas: Will there be fewer of them? estimated revenue expenditure—the total amount that it will be spending—last year was £157.7 million. As a Nick Herbert: The hon. Gentleman knows that we proportion of that overall revenue spending, the amount cannot give guarantees about numbers. The previous that it is being asked to cut in-year is 0.8% of expenditure. Government could not do so. During the general election, I think that most of us would conclude that an organisation on “The Daily Politics”, the previous Home Secretary ought to be able to make savings of 0.8% of the total refused to give a guarantee on numbers. We can no amount that they spend by finding the kinds of savings longer play the numbers game. The test of an effective that I have suggested. force is not just the numbers of people working in it. We The second concern about funding relates to the have to consider how we might ensure that front line Chancellor’s announcements in the Budget about spending availability is increased by considering what roles civilian and the savings that are required to be made in Departments officers could perform in police forces—for example, in the four-year period of the comprehensive spending whether they could do not just bank-room jobs, but review. The Chancellor has indicted savings in the non- policing jobs, such as contributing to detective work protected Departments, including the Home Office, of that does not necessarily need sworn officers. We will be 25% in real terms over four years. None of us doubts able to promote innovative working practices as well. that that would be a challenging figure. Again, as the We cannot give any guarantees about numbers, but I major component of spending, policing would have to can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will do everything play its part. We do not know what the outcome of the possible to create the conditions that enable chief officers CSR will be. Therefore we do not know what share to protect the front line. We understand that that is what policing will have to bear. the public want and that that is their priority. We Last week at the Association of Chief Police Officers understand the value that the public attach to visible conference in Manchester we discussed extensively the and available policing and, from the Government’s point kinds of things that we want to see happening to protect of view, we will do everything that we can. However, it the front line. For instance, we want greater sharing of is for chief constables to decide on the right work-force services between the 43 forces, where I believe there are mix in their forces and it is for them to take decisions significant savings to be made through centralised and ensure that they are delivering effective value for procurement and greater collaboration. The Government money, given the available resources. There are not will play their part by doing everything possible to cut limitless resources for policing—there never were—and bureaucracy to ensure that there is less paperwork for the situation is tough. police officers to do, so that they are not tied up in police stations. We want the police to be crime fighters, 2pm not form writers, so we scrapped the remaining central Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order target in relation to policing and the central pledge. We No. 10(11)). 3WS Written Ministerial Statements6 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 4WS Written Ministerial COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Statements Local Government Reorganisation Tuesday 6 July 2010 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for CABINET OFFICE Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): On Monday 5 July, the High Court decided to quash, in their entirety, the Structural Change Orders creating Civil Service Compensation Scheme unitary councils for the cities of Exeter and Norwich. As a result the terms of office of one third of the The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster members of Exeter and Norwich city councils, which General (Mr Francis Maude): The Government intend had been extended by the orders, ended on the 5 July to limit the amount of benefit payable to civil servants and there will be by-elections to fill these vacancies under certain schemes made under the Superannuation within 35 days as required by statute. Moreover, the Act 1972. In the light of the extremely difficult fiscal decisions taken in March to implement the unitary circumstances facing the national economy, the Government proposals for Norwich and Exeter by the then Secretary have no option but to take steps to ensure that any of State, are now overturned. scheme for civil servants is affordable in the economic I am today announcing to the House how I propose climate. to respond to this situation, which quashing the orders Earlier this year, the previous Government introduced has created. a revised civil service compensation scheme that introduced I recognise that there will now be elections for one a two-year cap on the payment of compensation for loss third of councillors in Norwich and Exeter within the of office, or redundancy. The terms of this scheme were next five weeks, and that this will involve the councils in agreed with the FDA, Prospect, the GMB, Unite and additional costs. This is an unfortunate consequence of the Prison Officers’ Association. One union, however, the previous Government’s reckless move to drive through the PCS, did not agree, sought judicial review in the unnecessary unitary proposals which did not comply High Court, and won. The revised scheme was accordingly with their own criteria, and have now been found to be quashed. The previous scheme is therefore once again in unlawful by the courts. force. This scheme is prohibitively expensive—in some As to the future of the unitary proposals, on which cases worth up to six and two thirds years of salary. We decisions can now be taken afresh, the Secretary of believe swift action to curb its excesses is essential. We State does not intend to take any such decisions. If take this step without relish. It has been made necessary Parliament enacts the Local Government Bill, which by the unilateral action taken by PCS, acting on its own, received its Second Reading in the other place on to contest the previous Government’s scheme. Wednesday 30 June, all uncompleted plans for unitary I will therefore bring legislation to the House as soon restructuring in Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk will end. as parliamentary time allows in a Bill to limit the costs The Bill provides that no order may be made for of future compensation payments for both compulsory implementing a unitary proposal received by the Secretary and voluntary civil service exits. Specifically, the Bill of State before the commencement of the Act. will propose that all departures on compulsory terms As a result of quashing the orders certain provisions from the civil service will be capped at a maximum of currently in the Bill are no longer needed. These are 12 months salary and departures under any other voluntary clause 1(3) of the Bill, which currently revokes the arrangements will be capped at 15 months salary. Structural Change Orders for Exeter and Norwich quashed I am at the same time writing to the Council of Civil by the Court, and clause 2 of the Bill which made Service Unions, inviting them to begin immediate consequential electoral arrangements on the revocations discussions to negotiate a sustainable and practical of those orders. Accordingly we are considering on how long-term successor scheme. to appropriately amend the Bill in the other place. My letter will make clear that the Government wish, The Government welcome the Court’s confirmation in discussion with the trade unions, a fair and practical that the orders are unlawful. This decision along with settlement. Such a settlement will need to be fair, and in the Local Government Bill currently before the other particular to provide a higher-level of protection for place will put an end to all the remaining costly and lower-paid workers. I have also indicated to the trade disruptive unitary proposals. union side that I would be content (in the interests of reaching a settlement) for a discussion to take place on Regional Strategies the most suitable terms for voluntary departures. Having acted swiftly to limit the costs of future compensation payments I hope that the Government’s The Secretary of State for Communities and Local invitation to the Council of Civil Service Unions will be Government (Mr Eric Pickles): Today I am making the received in the spirit it is offered and that they will first step to deliver our commitment in the coalition engage speedily and constructively with a view to reaching agreement to an agreed, fair and sustainable long-term civil service “rapidly abolish regional spatial strategies and return decision-making compensation scheme. I believe that with goodwill and powers on housing and planning to local councils”, determination a new scheme could be in place by the by revoking regional strategies. time the Bill made necessary by the PCS action reaches Regional strategies added unnecessary bureaucracy the statute book. to the planning system. They were a failure. They were 5WS Written Ministerial Statements6 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 6WS expensive and time-consuming. They alienated people, have written to Dame Clare today to set out the remit of pitting them against development instead of encouraging this review and I would like to take this opportunity to people to build in their local area. provide the House with further details. The revocation of regional strategies will make local I recognise that the EYFS has helped to promote a spatial plans, drawn up in conformity with national consistent approach to early learning and development policy, the basis for local planning decisions. The new of children aged 0-5, and has done much to raise planning system will be clear, efficient and will put standards, and keep children safe. However, I am concerned greater power in the hands of local people, rather than that the framework is too rigid and puts too many regional bodies. burdens on the early years workforce. I have asked Imposed central targets will be replaced with powerful Dame Clare to consider what the evidence tells us about incentives so that people see the benefits of building. how children can best be supported in their early learning, The coalition agreement makes a clear commitment to particularly children from disadvantaged backgrounds, providing local authorities with real incentives to build and how all children should be prepared to take full new homes. I can confirm that this will ensure that advantage of the opportunities offered by more formal those local authorities which take action now to consent learning in primary school. I have also asked her to and support the construction of new homes will receive consider how to reduce the burden of the EYFS on direct and substantial benefit from their actions. Because those who have to deliver it. we are committed to housing growth, introducing these The review will cover four main areas: incentives will be a priority and we aim to do so early in Scope of regulation—whether there should be a single framework the spending review period. We will consult on the for all early years providers; detail of this later this year. These incentives will encourage Learning and development—looking at the latest evidence on local authorities and communities to increase their how children are best supported in their learning and aspirations for housing and economic growth, and to development and what is needed to give them the best start deliver sustainable development in a way that allows at school; them to control the way in which their villages, towns Assessment—how young children’s development should be and cities change. Our revisions to the planning system assessed; will also support renewable energy and a low-carbon Welfare—the minimum standards to keep children safe and economy. support their healthy development. The abolition of regional strategies will provide a We need a framework that raises standards and keeps clear signal of the importance attached to the development children safe. But we also need framework which is and application of local spatial plans, in the form of responsive to the needs of parents and supports a local development framework core strategies and other diverse and flexible childcare market. development plan documents. Future reform in this I am delighted that Dame Clare has agreed to lead area will make it easier for local councils, working with this important review of the EYFS. Her knowledge of their communities, to agree and amend local plans in a the needs of children and families, especially those from way that maximises the involvement of neighbourhoods. more disadvantaged areas, and the importance of early The abolition of regional strategies will require legislation intervention means she is well placed to advise on how in the “Localism Bill” which we are introducing this young children can best be supported, and how we can session. However, given the clear coalition commitment, free up the system so that it works for both childcare it is important to avoid a period of uncertainty over workers and parents. planning policy, until the legislation is enacted. So I am revoking regional strategies today in order to give clarity The review will start in September this year, and I to builders, developers and planners. have asked Dame Clare to produce her final report in spring 2011. We will be looking to implement any Regional strategies are being revoked under s79(6) of changes from September 2012 onwards. the Local Democracy Economic Development and Construction Act 2009 and will thus no longer form I have placed a copy of the letter sent today to Dame part of the development plan for the purposes of s38(6) Clare in the Libraries of both Houses. of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. Revoking, and then abolishing, regional strategies will mean that the planning system is simpler, more efficient and easier for people to understand. It will be FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE firmly rooted in the local community.And it will encourage the investment, economic growth and housing that Britain needs. European Parliament Transitionary Protocol We will be providing advice for local planning authorities today and a copy has been placed in the Library of the House. The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): The EU treaties, as amended by the treaty of Lisbon, provide for the allocation of 18 extra MEPs to 12 member EDUCATION states, including the UK which gains one extra MEP. Early Years Foundation Stage The number of MEPs from Germany is also reduced by three. Last year’s European Parliament elections were held under the provisions of the Nice treaty, given that The Minister of State, Department for Education (Sarah the Lisbon treaty had not at that stage entered into Teather): I have asked Dame Clare Tickell, chief executive force, and so these additional MEPs were not elected at of Action for Children, to carry out an independent that time. To allow the extra MEPs provided for to be review of the early years foundation stage (EYFS). I elected in the current 2009-2014 European Parliament 7WS Written Ministerial Statements6 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS and without the three German MEPs having to stand evidence issued by the Government today will ensure that the UK down in the middle of a term of office, transitional can be fully informed ahead of negotiations on this reform. arrangements are needed to enable the number of MEPs The call for evidence seeks evidence about areas of the European to exceed temporarily the limit of 750 plus the president Data Protection Directive 95/46/EC and the Data Protection which is laid down in article 14(2) of the treaty on Act 1998 that may be out of date or could be improved, and also European Union. those areas that are working well and should be retained. The Government are encouraging as many people as possible to In order to make the required transitional changes, respond to the call for evidence which will last for three months the member states of the EU agreed a protocol containing and is due to close on 6 October 2010. transitional arrangements concerning the composition At the same time as launching this call for evidence, the of the European Parliament, via a very limited Government are publishing a provisional post-implementation intergovernmental conference (IGC) in the margins of review impact assessment of the Data Protection Act 1998, on the 23 June meeting of the Committee of Permanent which we would also welcome comments. The provisional post- Representatives of EU member states. implementation review impact assessment complements the call for evidence and publication of a full impact assessment is As with all treaty changes, the protocol now requires planned for the end of 2010. ratification from all member states before it can enter Copies of the call for evidence paper and the provisional into force. Any amendment to the EU treaties can only post-implementation review impact assessment will be placed in be ratified by the UK if it is approved by Act of the Libraries of both Houses and on the Department’s website at Parliament. This is set out in section 5 of the European www.justice.gov.uk.” Union (Amendment) Act 2008. Parliament therefore needs to pass primary legislation before the protocol can be ratified in the UK and the Government intend to NORTHERN IRELAND include the necessary provision in the forthcoming European Union Bill. Billy Wright Inquiry This is a technical change to the treaty relating to numbers of MEPs and does not transfer any power or competence from the UK to the EU. The additional The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen numbers of MEPs are entitled to take their seats in Paterson): In anticipation of the publication of the 2014—this protocol simply means that they will be able report of the Billy Wright Inquiry, I have today asked a to do so earlier than this date. team of officials to commence the checking of the Details of the process to be undertaken to elect the Inquiry’s report in relation to human rights and national UK’s extra MEP will be announced in due course. security matters, as outlined below. I intend to adopt the same approach as was used for the checking of the report of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT I am responsible for publication of the Inquiry’s report, once it is delivered to me. I am advised that I DFID’s Programme in Nepal have a duty, as a public authority under the Human Rights Act, to act in a way that is compatible with the The Secretary of State for International Development European convention on human rights (ECHR). To (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Today we are publishing by fulfil this duty, I need to take steps to satisfy myself that Command Paper the Government response to the former publication of the report will not breach article 2 of the International Development Committee’s report on DFID’s convention by putting the lives or safety of individuals programme in Nepal. The report was published on at risk. I am advised that these obligations must be met 28 March 2010. by me personally, in my capacity as Secretary of State The report was generally positive about DFID’s for Northern Ireland. Although the Inquiry is also a programme in Nepal. The report also recognises the public authority under the Human Rights Act, I am not difficulties of working in Nepal, and the complexities entitled to rely on the Inquiry to satisfy my article 2 and fragility of the peace process. The Minister of State obligations and I have a duty to assess this myself. I also for International Development visited Nepal on 26 to have a duty to satisfy myself that publication will not 28 May 2010. The visit deepened the UK Government’s put national security at risk, for example by disclosing understanding of DFID’s Nepal programme. details of sources of confidential information. During the course of the Inquiry, the Government and security forces submitted to the Inquiry Panel some JUSTICE material that was relevant to its work but which was too sensitive to be disclosed publicly, sometimes because it Data Protection Legislative Framework contained information which had been provided to the security forces by individuals. If those individuals could be identified from the details they provided it would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice endanger their lives. I understand that the Inquiry Panel (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): My right hon. Friend the does not intend to refer to any material which would Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Lord McNally, constitute a breach of article 2, or compromise national has made the following written ministerial statement: security, but I have a duty to satisfy myself before “Today I have issued a call for evidence on current data publication that none of this material has inadvertently protection law to help inform the UK’s position on the forthcoming negotiations on a new comprehensive EU instrument for data been revealed in the report. The Inquiry Panel also protection, which are expected to commence in early 2011. agreed that the identities of a small number of individuals On 18 March 2010 the European Commission announced its who were engaged on highly sensitive duties should not intention to produce a proposal which would reform the European be disclosed and I need to be assured that these individuals Data Protection Directive before the end of 2010. The call for have not been identified. 9WS Written Ministerial Statements6 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS

I have established a small team of officials and legal Agility Trains was appointed preferred bidder to advisers to assist me in carrying out this necessary build and maintain the new IEP fleet in February 2009. exercise. The team will be led by the Northern Ireland In February of this year, the previous Government Office’s principal legal adviser, but will need to include invited Sir Andrew Foster, former head of the Audit members drawn from the Ministry of Defence, Security Commission, to provide an independent assessment of Service, and PSNI who are familiar with the sensitive the value for money of the intercity express programme material provided to the Inquiry Panel. They will be and the credibility and the value for money of any granted access to the report under strict terms of alternatives which meet the programme’s objectives. confidentiality and for the sole purpose of carrying out Sir Andrew presented his report to me at the end of the necessary checks, and they will report directly to me June, and I am publishing it today. alone. Lord MacLean has agreed that this team can Sir Andrew suggests that the inter-city express proposition carry out the necessary checks on the Inquiry’s premises is “positive and attractive” in a number of ways. He while the report remains in his custody, before it is suggests that the PFI-style funding arrangement is novel submitted to me. I have confirmed to Lord MacLean and well aligned in terms of financial incentives. The that I am content with this proposal. I understand that faster acceleration and longer carriages would have a the report will be made available for checking today. positive impact on network and passenger capacity, and I believe that these checks are absolutely necessary in the specification has also taken network sustainability order to meet the legal obligations on me. Following the and environmental imperatives seriously. approach used for the checking of the Bloody Sunday Sir Andrew does express some doubts over the technical Inquiry report, I have sought Lord MacLean’s permission feasibility of the new bi-mode trains, but I see this as a to allow members of the Inquiry legal team to be lesser issue. While this is a clearly challenging project, I present during the checking process, to which Lord have been impressed by Agility’s willingness to take on MacLean has agreed. At all times, members of the the commercial risk for the reliability and performance Inquiry legal team will be acting as representatives of of the trains. In addition, Hitachi—Agility’s major the Inquiry and not as advisers to me or the checking shareholder—has already demonstrated its commitment team. to delivering high quality products to the UK rail I want to publish the report in its entirety. Should any market through its development and deployment of the concerns about the safety of any individual arise, my new Javelin trains for high speed 1. first course of action would be to consider whether While Sir Andrew’s report acknowledges that the these can be addressed through alternative means. Were programme has exceeded the Department’s value for I to reach the conclusion, on advice, that a redaction to money thresholds, the value for money has declined the text might be necessary, I would consult Lord over time, and Sir Andrew suggests that he is not MacLean. In the very unlikely event that any redaction convinced that all of the viable alternatives to the was deemed necessary, my intention would be to make programme have been assessed alongside it on an equal this clear on the face of the report. footing. Therefore the Government will use the period The report must be published first for this House, until the spending review announcement in October to and I intend to publish the report as soon as possible give further consideration to the alternatives to IEP. once the checking process has been completed. However, Sir Andrew also expressed some concern over the I acknowledge the importance of this Inquiry’s findings widespread scepticism of the programme within the rail in the lives of a number of individuals. As with the industry. He suggests that the need for commercial publication of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry report, I confidentiality in the much delayed procurement process— intend to consider giving advance sight to those who that was run by the previous administration—has resulted were designated as Represented Parties by the Inquiry. I in insufficient communication between the Department intend to discuss this with the Speaker of this House in and the key stakeholders. Despite involving the rail due course. industry in the procurement process, a sense of disengagement developed, which could have been avoided. This Government fully recognise these concerns and TRANSPORT we are already acting on them. In future, we will involve the rail industry more fully in decision making. We have already invited the industry to contribute to Sir Roy Rolling Stock McNulty’s review of costs in the rail sector. In addition, we have announced that we will consult widely on franchising policy, allowing the industry to suggest The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip ways to improve the efficiency and value for money of Hammond): I am today announcing that a decision on rail franchises, for both taxpayers and farepayers. We the future of the intercity express programme (IEP) will will also work with the rail industry to consider how be made at the same time as the spending review best, in future, to procure and implement major investments announcement in October. IEP would provide new in rolling stock, as well as how best to implement the trains for the east coast and Great Western main lines, changes that follow from the spending review. and is separate from the high speed 2 proposal. IEP is a Finally, it remains for me to thank Sir Andrew Foster, complex programme which has interdependencies with Agility Trains and those from the across the rail industry several other major rail projects, and as expenditure on who contributed to the review. rail projects will necessarily be reassessed in the context Copies of Sir Andrew Foster’s report have been placed of the spending review, it would be irresponsible to in the Libraries of both Houses and are available on the make a decision on IEP in isolation at this time. Departments website (www.dft.gov.uk). 1P Petitions6 JULY 2010 Petitions 2P

Facilities at the new location will include extended Petitions opening hours, a new purpose-built serving counter and parking facilities adjacent to the premises with two Tuesday 6 July 2010 disabled spaces.

OBSERVATIONS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS St George’s Day (Public Holiday) Transfer of Post Office Facilities (Viewpark, North The Petition of residents of the Erewash constituency Lanarkshire) and others, The Petition of residents of Coatbridge, Chryston and Declares that England is one of very few countries in Bellshill constituency and others, the world that does not have a public holiday to celebrate its national day; notes that St Patrick’s Day is bank Declares that the proposed transfer of Post Office holiday in Northern Ireland, and that St Andrew’s Day facilities from Market Place, Viewpark to Old Edinburgh is a voluntary public holiday in Scotland; and further Road, Viewpark is unacceptable for social, economic declares that everyone who is part of England should be and community reasons. able to celebrate its traditions, its history, its heritage The Petitioners therefore request that the House of and the English way of life with a public holiday on Commons urges the Government to take all possible St George’s Day. steps to prevent the proposed transfer of facilities. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr Tom Commons urges the Government to bring forward Clarke, Official Report, 23 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 399.] proposals to make St George’s Day a public holiday in England. [P000838] And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Jessica Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, Lee, Official Report, 23 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 400.] Innovation and Skills: [P000839] The Government have been clear in “The Coalition: our programme for government” that we will ensure Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, that post offices are allowed to offer a wide range of Innovation and Skills: services in order to sustain the network, and we will We thank our hon. Friend for her Petition asking the look at the case for developing new sources of revenue, Government to bring forward proposals to make such as the creation of a Post Office Bank. St George’s Day a bank holiday in England. Since 2001, when the Royal Mail (which includes Post Public Holidays through the EU and across the UK Office Ltd) was set up as a public limited company with reflect differing histories, cultures and traditions. The the Government as its only shareholder, Government suggestion of a bank holiday in England to celebrate have adopted an arm’s-length relationship with the St George’s Day on 23 April is one that has been made company so that it has the commercial freedom to run on a number of occasions in recent years. However, its business operations without interference from the there have also been other suggestions in this area, for shareholder. The precise location of post office branches instance a proposal for a new “British Day” after is an operational matter for Post Office Ltd. Remembrance Sunday to celebrate the contribution of Post Office Ltd has advised that the Burnhead branch the Armed Forces. has been operated by a temporary agent following the All such proposals must, however, be seen in the resignation of the previous sub-postmaster. Post Office context of the practical implications of the introduction Ltd has now appointed a permanent agent to enable of an additional bank holiday, in particular the significant post office services to continue in the area on a longer-term costs it would entail for employers. The Government basis, following a local public consultation. Post office therefore have no current plans to change the current services will be incorporated into the local convenience pattern of bank holidays which is well established and store in Uddingston, about half a mile from the current accepted, but are grateful to her for taking the time to branch. submit her views.

135W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 136W

Grant Shapps: The Homes and Communities Agency Written Answers to would judge any local authority scheme put forward for grant support against the same criteria it would apply Questions to housing association schemes; that is, value for money in terms of both total public subsidy and per person housed. Tuesday 6 July 2010 Departmental Official Photographs

NORTHERN IRELAND Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much his Departmental Official Cars Department has spent on official photographs of Ministers since the formation of the present Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern administration. [6433] Ireland which Ministers in his Department have used an allocated Ministerial car to travel between the Robert Neill: Nil. There will be no cost to the public Department and the House of Commons on each day purse; costs of official ministerial photographs since 21 May 2010. [5554] commissioned since 12 May 2010 are being personally Mr Paterson: Ministers use cars provided by the met by Ministers. Government Car and Dispatch Agency as and when In previous years for which costs are available, necessary for official ministerial business under guidelines departmental spend on official ministerial photography, provided by the Cabinet Office. funded by the public purse, was as follows:

£

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 2009-10 939.25 2008-09 445 Affordable Housing: Lancashire 2007-08 794 Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 470 Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the number of surplus one and two bed Housing Benefit: Homlessness properties in the social sector in West Lancashire constituency. [5648] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate his Andrew Stunell: The number of surplus properties in Department has made of the likely effects of the social sector is not collected centrally. implementation of the proposed changes to the Information on the number of vacant general needs payment of housing benefit on (a) levels of registered social landlord owned dwellings located in homelessness and (b) demand for affordable housing each local authority area as at 31 March is collected by in each of the next five years. [6536] the Tenant Services Authority via their regulatory and statistical return (RSR). However, the Government do Grant Shapps: The Department for Work and Pensions not consider vacant dwelling information an appropriate undertakes an assessment of the impact on specific proxy measure of surplus housing. groups as part of the policy development process. DWP will publish formal impact assessments in due course. Community Land Trusts Housing: Construction Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for community land trusts are registered in England; and Communities and Local Government when he plans to how many new homes he expects such trusts to provide bring forward further proposals on providing financial in the next four years. [6018] incentives to local authorities allowing residential Grant Shapps: There is no requirement to register to development in their areas. [5839] become a Community Land Trusts (CLTs). They are independent locally constituted bodies, which are Grant Shapps: We are committed to increasing housing contributing to the provision of affordable housing in supply and seeing more of the homes that people want, areas of need. We have no estimate of how many homes in the places that people want them, to meet Britain’s CLTs will provide in the next four years. housing need. The coalition agreement set out our clear intention to provide incentives for local authorities to Council Housing: Construction deliver sustainable development, including new homes and business. I will set out further details on incentives John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for in due course. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 28 June 2010, Official Report, columns Housing: Empty Property 374-5W, on council housing: construction, what criteria his Department uses to assess the value for John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for money of schemes to support the construction of new Communities and Local Government pursuant to the local authority housing. [6504] answer of 28 June 2010, Official Report, column 377W, 137W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 138W on housing: empty property, when he expects to Andrew Stunell: The number of surplus properties in complete his assessment of potential measures to bring the social sector is not collected centrally. empty homes back into use; and if he will make a Information on the number of vacant general needs statement. [6505] registered social landlord owned dwellings located in each local authority area as at 31 March is collected by Grant Shapps: We will complete our assessment and the Tenant Services Authority via their Regulatory and make an announcement shortly. Statistical Return (RSR). However, the Government do National Community Land Trust Network not consider vacant dwelling information an appropriate proxy measure of surplus housing. Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Social Rented Housing: Standards Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the cost of establishing the National John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Community Land Trust Network; how many people he Communities and Local Government what estimate his expects the network to employ; and what effects he Department has made of the number of (a) local expects the establishment of the Network to have on authority and (b) housing association properties community land trusts. [6017] remaining to be refurbished under the Decent Homes programme on 31 March (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [6537] Grant Shapps: Carnegie UK Trust was awarded funding through the Empowerment Fund in 2009 to support Grant Shapps: The latest estimate is that there were community engagement in planning matters. Their bid 282,000 local authority and 134,000 housing association focused on their work facilitating Community Land homes failing to meet the Decent Homes standard at Trusts (CLTs). As part of their work, the trust has the end of March 2010 and there will be 205,000 local established the National Community Land Trust Network, authority and 100,000 housing association non-decent which will be hosted by the National Housing Federation homes at the end of March 2011. These figures would (NHF) with a grant of £100,000 over two years. The have been lower had funding reductions of £150 million NHF will complement this funding with financial and not been made to the Decent Homes programme in in-kind support. One member of staff will be employed July 2009. by the Network, which will provide high quality legal, financial and development advice to CLTs. Key to its Travellers: Caravan Sites work will be to ensure experience and good practice is shared to assist communities to deliver more affordable Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for housing, workspaces and community facilities using Communities and Local Government if he will bring this model. forward proposals to increase the powers of local authorities to remove illegally camped Gypsies and Property Development: Floods Travellers; and if he will make a statement. [5483]

Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: The Government will ensure that, Communities and Local Government what steps he is where local authorities have made appropriate provision taking to encourage local authorities not to grant for authorised sites in their area which reflect genuine planning permissions for residential dwellings on flood local need and historic demand, those authorities will plains or areas at high risk of flooding; and if he will be given stronger enforcement powers to deal with make a statement. [5482] unauthorised encampments. We are reviewing how this can be achieved but any changes to the law must be Robert Neill: The Coalition programme states that consistent with our other Coalition Agreement the Government will radically reform the planning system commitments; we will be looking in the first instance at to give neighbourhoods far more ability to determine options for enforcing existing civil law, such as the use the shape of the places in which their inhabitants live, of civil penalties. based on the principles set out in the Conservative party publication “Open Source Planning”. The programme also states that the Government will prevent unnecessary building in areas of high flood risk. We will publish and TRANSPORT present to Parliament a simple and consolidated national planning policy framework covering all forms of Bus services development and setting out national economic, environmental and social priorities. We will make an Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for announcement on how we propose to take forward the Transport if he will bring forward proposals to amend national planning framework and the implications for the Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations specific areas of planning policy shortly. 2000 to require all new buses to have audio and visual information systems. [4190] Social Rented Housing: Bishop Auckland Norman Baker: Research is currently being undertaken Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for to assess whether the challenges of widespread Communities and Local Government what his most implementation of audio visual equipment on buses recent estimate is of the number of surplus (a) one and can be overcome. This will assist the decision on whether (b) two bedroom properties in the social sector in (i) to make amendments to The Public Service Vehicles Bishop Auckland and (ii) Blackpool North and Accessibility Regulations to include a requirement for Cleveleys constituency. [5091] such systems to be fitted to buses. The research project 139W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 140W has brought together a cross section of stakeholders, Departmental Reviews including Guide Dogs, Royal National Institute of Blind People and Royal National Institute for Deaf People. Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for The project is scheduled to report in autumn 2010. Transport pursuant to the answer of 8 June 2010, Official Report, column 137W, on Government Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Departments: reviews, what reviews his Department is Transport what plans he has to offer bus services undertaking; and what the (a) purpose and (b) operator grant for the provision of local bus services in timescale of each is. [2583] (a) 2011-12 and (b) 2012-13. [5452] Norman Baker: The Coalition Agreement sets out in Norman Baker: The Government are considering Bus detail the Government’s future plans, including the key Service Operators Grant as part of the spending review. reviews it will be undertaking. This includes a reform of We will make an announcement once the spending the way decisions are made on which transport projects review has concluded. to prioritise so that the benefits of low carbon proposals (including light rail schemes) are fully recognised. The Bus Services: Leeds Department for Transport will bring forward detailed information about this and other reviews in due course. Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the liability to contractors would be if Intercity Express funding for the Quality Bus scheme on the A65 in Leeds were withdrawn. [4085] Phil Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he plans to publish the outcomes of Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has Sir Andrew Foster’s review of the Intercity Express not made an estimate of these costs as we have no contract; and if he will make a statement. [4097] intention of withdrawing funding for this scheme. Mrs Villiers: The Government have published Sir Departmental NDPBs Andrew Foster’s report today and I refer the hon. Member to the written ministerial statement made today Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on Transport what the address is of the head office of each rolling stock. non-departmental public body for which his Merchant Shipping: Registration Department is responsible. [5712]

Norman Baker: The address of the head office of David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for each non-departmental public body for which the Transport what steps he plans to take to encourage Department for Transport is responsible is as follows: more merchant naval vessels to register in the UK. [6033] British Rail Residuary Board, BRB (Residuary) Ltd, 4th Floor, One Kemble Street, London WC2B 4AN Mike Penning: The Government remain committed British Transport Police Authority, The Forum, 5th Floor to a strong and high quality UK Ship Register. North, 74-80 Camden Street, London NW1 0EG The Ship Register is maintaining its strong position Cycling England, PO Box 54810, London SW1P 4XX both in size (11th largest fleet in the world) and its Disabled Persons’ Transport Advisory Committee, 2/23 Great commitment to maintaining high quality standards (5th on Minster House, 76 Marsham Street, London SW1P 4DR the Paris MOU white list). Civil Aviation Authority, CAA House, 45-59 Kingsway, London WC2B 6TE We continue to explore opportunities for further development of the UK Ship Register. Commission for Integrated Transport, 2nd Floor, 55 Victoria Street, London SW1H 0EU River Wear: Bridges Directly Operated Railways Ltd, 4th Floor, 1 Kemble Street, London WC2B 4AN Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for High Speed 2 Ltd, 55 Victoria Street, London SW1H 0EU Transport if he will expedite the decision on whether to Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership, 83 Victoria Street, London, retain planned funding to the new Wear Bridge. [4130] SW1H 0HW Northern Lighthouse Board, 84 George Street, Edinburgh Norman Baker: As the Secretary of State explained in EH2 3DA his written ministerial statement of 10 June 2010, Official Office of the Rail Regulation, 1 Kemble Street, London, Report, column 35WS on transport (local authority WC2B 4AN major schemes), funding decisions for this or any other Office of the Traffic Commissioner, Hillcrest House, 386 Harehills local authority major transport scheme will not be Lane, Leeds, LS9 6NF taken at least until the conclusion of the spending Passenger Focus, Whittles House, 14 Pentonville Road, London review. N1 9HF and 5th Floor, Wellington House, 39/41 Piccadilly, Manchester M1 1LQ Road Traffic: Greater Manchester Rail Heritage Committee, Zone 4/13, Temple Quay House, 2 The Square, Temple Quay, Bristol, BS1 6EB Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Renewable Fuels Agency, Ashdown House, Sedlescombe Road Transport if he will visit the villages of Hollingworth North, St Leonards on Sea, East Sussex, TN37 7GA and Mottram-in-Longdendale in Stalybridge and Hyde Trinity House Lighthouse Service, Trinity House, Tower Hill, constituency to observe traffic congestion on the A59. London EC3N 4DH. [3700] 141W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 142W

Norman Baker: I understand Tameside metropolitan Richard Benyon: The following table shows Environment borough council is currently looking at options to address Agency expenditure within the Northumbria Regional congestion in the villages of Hollingworth and Mottram- Flood Defence Committee’s boundary.Figures are available in-Longdendale in the constituency of Stalybridge and from 2000-01 and have been rounded to the nearest Hyde. £100,000. I do not think it would be appropriate for me or the Expenditure on flood risk management includes Secretary of State for Transport to visit the area to investment in new defences and other assets, maintenance observe traffic congestion whilst this work is ongoing. of existing defences, and all other flood risk activities such as flood warnings and mapping. Roads: Lighting Figures have been sourced from Environment Agency Gavin Barwell: To ask the Secretary of State for outturn reports, which are now called stewardship Transport when he plans to inform Croydon and statements, presented by the Environment Agency to Lewisham councils of his decision on their joint bid for the Northumbria Regional Flood Defence Committee credit for their private finance initiative street lighting each year. scheme. [4545] Total (£000) Norman Baker: Croydon and Lewisham Councils have not yet submitted a Final Business Case to the 2000-01 5,400 Department for Transport on their proposed street 2001-02 5,600 lighting scheme to be delivered through the Private 2002-03 7,700 Finance Initiative. This is not expected to be received 2003-04 9,700 until some time in late 2010/early 2011. 2004-05 11,500 2005-06 11,500 South East Airports Task Force 2006-07 10,200 2007-08 9,900 Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the responsibilities of the South East 2008-09 9,900 Airports Taskforce are; and what mechanism will be 2009-10 11,000 established to ensure that the Taskforce takes account 2010-11 13,900 of representations from local residents and Spending levels in future years are dependent on the environmental groups. [3699] conclusions of the spending review. Mrs Villiers: The South East Airports Taskforce will Whales: Conservation bring together key players from across the industry to explore the scope for measures to help improve reliability, Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State reduce delay and create better conditions for all users. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what I have invited representation from the Aviation discussions Ministers in her Department had with their Environment Federation to consider the environmental international counterparts at the 62nd annual meeting impact of any proposals. of the International Whaling Commission; and if she will make a statement. [5906]

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Richard Benyon: I spoke with Ministerial colleagues from Australia, New Zealand and Brazil, and my right Departmental Conferences hon. Friend the Secretary of State discussed whaling and the IWC with her counterparts in Germany and Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for France. Throughout, we stressed our strong support for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate the moratorium on commercial whaling, and the need she has made of the expenditure of her Department to ensure the long-term conservation and protection of and its predecessor on (a) organisation of and (b) whales. attendance at conferences in each year since 1997. [6120] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what (a) Richard Benyon: The Department run conferences on meetings and (b) other engagements Ministers in her specific issues where we feel benefit will be had. Where Department attended as part of the 62nd annual appropriate we send delegates to other organisations’ meeting of the International Whaling Commission. conferences whose work is relevant to our own. [5907] Statistics on conferences are not collated centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Richard Benyon: I was able to attend the first day of Floods: North East the annual International Whaling Commission (IWC) meeting, to demonstrate our commitment to the work Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for of the IWC and the importance that the UK Government Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what and people attach to it. expenditure her Department and its agencies have I also had bi-lateral meetings with Ministers from incurred on flood defences in the North East in each of Australia and New Zealand and met officials from the the last 13 years; and what estimate she has made of European Commission, EU member states, the Buenos the equivalent figure in each of the next five years. Aires Group of South American countries and other [6187] IWC member countries. 143W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 144W

Woodland Departmental Lost Property Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for her Department is taking to increase the amount of Scotland what property has been recorded as (a) lost woodland in (a) England and (b) the West Midlands. and (b) stolen from his Department in the last [5081] 12 months; and what estimate has been made of the cost of the replacement of that property. [5976] Mr Paice [holding answer 1 July 2010]: The Forestry Commission’s delivery plan for the 2007 strategy for David Mundell: In the last 12 months one item of England’s trees woods and forests includes the objective property has been recorded as lost. The Scotland Office to plant trees and create new woodland in priority incurred no cost as it was not replaced. No property has places. In addition our programme for government been reported stolen in the last 12 months. includes a commitment to launch a new national tree planting campaign. Under the Rural Development Programme for England WALES 2007-13, there is a commitment to create 15,400 hectares of new woodlands with support from the English Woodland Bosch: Location Grant Scheme administered by the Forestry Commission. This support is available in all regions including the Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales west midlands. There will also be a contribution from whether she has discussed with Welsh Assembly smaller woodlands planted as part of Environmental Government Ministers (a) the effects on employment Stewardship, the agri-environment grant scheme in companies supplying the Bosch factory in Cardiff of administered by Natural England. relocation of the factory outside the UK and (b) the effect on other Bosch factories in Wales of such a Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State relocation. [4126] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Department is taking to protect ancient woodland Mrs Gillan: I have regular discussions with Welsh in (a) England and (b) the West Midlands. [5082] Assembly Government Ministers on the economic and Mr Paice [holding answer 1 July 2010]: All woodland employment situation in Wales. The closure of Bosch is is protected in accordance with the felling regulations indeed a blow to the south Wales economy and it will under the Forestry Act 1967 (as amended). Any felling undoubtedly affect companies in the supply chain. carried out without a licence is an offence, unless it is The Welsh Assembly Government have offered their covered by one of the exemptions specified in the legislation. support to both Bosch employees and companies supplying Under the Forestry Act, the Forestry Commission usually the Miskin site and we will provide any assistance we attaches conditions to a felling licence in order to secure can. In particular, it is vital that a new investor is found replanting of any area felled. to make use of this well-located site just outside Cardiff Where it is intended to fell trees and use the land for so as to provide alternative employment for the skilled another purpose the proposals will be assessed under workers who are set to lose their jobs. the Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) Indeed, I recently met German Industry UK Regulations, and consent for felling under these regulations representatives to discuss ways of encouraging German may also be required from the Forestry Commission. companies to see the potential of Wales as a great place Woodland is also at risk from pests and diseases, to do business. some of which have emerged or become more widespread over the last few years. The Forestry Commission has responsibility for the protection of forest trees and ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE timber and is empowered to make orders to prevent the introduction and spread of tree pests and diseases. Electoral Systems: Referendums Other measures to protect woodland, such as tree preservation orders, are available to local authorities in John Glen: To ask the hon. Member for South West the west midlands and throughout England. Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission what estimate the Electoral Commission has made of the likely cost to the public SCOTLAND purse of a referendum on the alternative vote system for general elections. [6401] Departmental Conferences Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for that the Cabinet Office is currently developing cost Scotland what estimate he has made of his estimates for the running of a national referendum. Department’s expenditure on (a) organisation of and (b) attendance at conferences in each year since 1997. The Commission further informs me that the [6119] estimated cost of its own activities would be approximately £9.3 million. This includes the costs of David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not separately its activities in fulfilling its statutory responsibilities record information on the organisation of, or attendance and of making grants of public money, up to a maximum at conferences. All expenditure is incurred in accordance of £600,000 each, available to the designated organisations with the principles of managing public money and the appointed as lead campaigners for each of the referendum Treasury handbook on regularity and propriety. outcomes. 145W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 146W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ATTORNEY-GENERAL Departmental NDPBs Young Offenders: Prosecutions Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Nicholas Soames: To ask the Attorney-General how Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the address much the Crown Prosecution Service spent on is of the head office of each non-departmental public prosecution of offenders under the age of 18 years in body for which his Department is responsible. [5723] each of the last five years. [6501] John Penrose: This information is available on our website at: The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service http://www.culture.gov.uk/about_us/our_sponsored_bodies/ (CPS) does not capture and report data by reference to 963.aspx the defendant’s date of birth and costs incurred. Departmental Training However, the CPS is able to estimate the approximate internal costs of prosecuting offenders under the age of Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for 18 for each of the last three years as: Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what training has been provided for Ministers in his Department since £ the formation of the present administration; and at 2007-08 35,500,000 what cost. [6426] 2008-09 26,000,000 2009-10 22,500,000 John Penrose: As at 6 July 2010, one Minister has attended an induction course run by the National School Equivalent earlier data for 2005-06 and 2006-07 are of Government, and subsequently had a follow up not available in a comparable format due to a change of session. Both were at no cost to the Department. process for recording data implemented in 2005. Mobile Phones: Fees and Charges The costs have been calculated using the number of finalised defendants identified as being young offenders Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for on the CPS case management system and applying the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many broad average cost of prosecutions using activity based individual respondents there were to Ofcom’s costing data. Wholesale Mobile Call Termination Review; when he The CPS does not capture the actual cost of individual expects Ofcom to report its recommendations to his prosecutions, to do so would require a time recording Department; and if he will make a statement. [5686] system and that would significantly increase the cost of running the service. However, the service does calculate Mr Vaizey: The Wholesale Mobile Call Termination the average cost of prosecutions through the application Review is a consultation conducted by Ofcom, who of activity based costing techniques. operate independently of Government. I have therefore asked Ofcom’s chief executive to consider the question raised by the hon. Member for West Bromwich East and to write to him direct. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of Boilers: Government Assistance both Houses. Radio: Digital Broadcasting David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the effectiveness of the boiler scrappage Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will delay or scheme in increasing energy efficiency; and if he will abolish the proposed switch off of FM analogue make a statement. [5859] broadcasting in light of its effect on poorer households. [5581] Gregory Barker: The Boiler Scrappage Scheme was designed to help up to 125,000 households at a cost of Mr Vaizey [holding answer 5 July 2010]: Around a £50 million. An initial assessment of the potential quarter of all radio listening is now to digital, so a effectiveness of the boiler scrappage scheme indicated future transition to digital radio continues to gain impetus. that the efficiency improvement from replacement of However, the Government’s policy is not to switch off “G-rated” gas boilers with “A-rated” boilers was over FM. We believe that FM will continue to provide a 20%. Replacing a “G-rated” boiler with an “A-rated” platform for local and community radio for the foreseeable boiler is calculated to save at least one tonne of CO2 per future. boiler per annum in an average home. When the scheme It would not be in anyone’s interest to force stations has completed its payments to householders, there will on to DAB or to ’switch off FM at a time when it would be a final evaluation of the scheme. leave any local stations without an appropriate broadcast platform. The assurance we can give, therefore, is that Carbon Emissions FM will continue for as long as it is needed and viable. With reference to the effect on poorer households, Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy digital radios are portable, easy to use and affordable, and Climate Change what timetable has been set for a with the cheapest models available for about £25 and reduction in the level of the UK’s carbon dioxide manufacturers are committed to developing even more emissions; and if he will seek a commitment at EU level affordable DAB sets. for a similar reduction in other EU countries. [5070] 147W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 148W

Gregory Barker: The Climate Change Act 2008 sets Committee on Climate Change: 4th Floor, Manning House, greenhouse gas emissions reduction targets of at least 22 Carlisle Place, London SW1P 1JA 34% by 2020 and at least 80% by 2050 (both from the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management Secretariat: 1990 baseline). The first three carbon budgets, running Area 3D, 3 Whitehall Place, London SW1A 2AW from 2008 to 2012, 2013 to 2017 and 2018 to 2022, are Fuel Poverty Advisory Group: Area 1D, 3 Whitehall Place set in line with the 34% target. This is based on an SW1A 2AW EU-wide emissions reduction of 20% from 1990 levels Renewables Advisory Board: 3 Whitehall Place SW1A 2AW by 2020. We are pushing to secure early EU agreement Office for Nuclear Development: Area 3D, 3 Whitehall Place, to move to a more ambitious emissions reduction target London, SW1A 2AW of 30% below 1990 levels by 2020. When this has been UK Chemical Weapons Convention National Authority Advisory agreed, and the methodology for sharing the effort Committee: Bay 116, 1 Victoria St, London, SW1H 0ET between EU member states has been decided, the UK Gas and Electricity Markets Authority: 9 Millbank, London will move to a more ambitious 2020 target, following SW1P 3GE advice from the Committee on Climate Change and Nuclear Liabilities Fund: Farringdon Place, 20 Farringdon taking into account the views of the Devolved Road, London EC1M 3AP Administrations. Electricity Generation: Planning Permission Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for has had with ministerial colleagues on the introduction Energy and Climate Change if he will discuss with the of mandatory carbon reporting under section 85 of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Climate Change Act 2008. [6003] Government the introduction of legislation to enable global environmental impact to be a consideration in Gregory Barker: DECC Ministers have not had recent deciding on planning applications for energy discussions on this subject, but expect to discuss the generating plants. [6241] issue in due course with DEFRA, the Department responsible for environmental reporting. Gregory Barker: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has no plans to hold such discussions. Departmental Lost Property While the planning system can help to deliver mitigation of environmental impacts including climate change, it Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for would not be proportionate to expect individual developers Energy and Climate Change what property has been to consider global environmental impacts beyond the recorded as (a) lost and (b) stolen from the environmental assessments, including environmental impact Department in the last 12 months; and what estimate assessments on major infrastructure projects, that they has been made of the cost of the replacement of that are already required to carry out. property. [5968] Green Investment Bank Gregory Barker: The following items have been recorded as lost or stolen from the Department in the last 12 months: James Wharton: To ask the Secretary of State for Item Lost Stolen Energy and Climate Change if he will meet business representatives for Teesside to discuss the possible Laptops 1 3 location of the Green Investment Bank in that area. RSA token 18 3 [5057] Entrust token 4 0 BlackBerry 4 3 Gregory Barker: The Government will put forward 3G dongle 1 0 detailed proposals for the creation of a Green Investment Coat 0 1 Bank following the Spending Review and will engage Bag 0 1 interested parties about the implementation of these proposals in due course. Estimated costs for replacement is £7,000. Housing: Insulation Departmental NDPBs Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to retain Energy and Climate Change what the address is of the the previous Government’s target of insulating every head office of each non-departmental public body for home with cavity wall and loft insulation where which his Department is responsible. [5720] technically possible by 2015. [5342]

Gregory Barker: The information is as follows: Gregory Barker: The new Green Deal initiative will Civil Nuclear Police Authority: H280 Hinton House, Birchwood help us achieve, or exceed, the binding targets for carbon Park Avenue, Risley, Warrington, Cheshire, WA3 6AS reductions set during the previous administration. We The Coal Authority: 200 Lichfield Lane, Mansfield, will introduce a new finance package to make it as easy Nottinghamshire NG18 4RG and attractive as possible for householders to lag their Nuclear Decommissioning Authority: Herdus House, Westlakes lofts, fill wall cavities, and take further steps to reduce Science and Technology Park, Moor Row, Cumbria CA24 their use of energy in the home. Households will be able 3HU to install not only the basic cavity and loft insulation 149W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 150W measures, but go further to provide comprehensive HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION packages for households that can deliver real energy, money and carbon savings. Air Conditioning Facilities In addition, the extension to the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT), which was announced last Mr Amess: To ask the hon. Member for week and is expected to deliver insulation to 3.5 million Middlesbrough, answering for the House of Commons households between April 2011 and December 2012, Commission how many complaints have been made will ensure a rapid and significant increase in the rate at about air conditioning facilities in the offices of hon. which we insulate homes over the next couple of years. Members and staff in (a) 1 Parliament Street, (b) Norman Shaw North, (c) Norman Shaw South, (d) Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs the Palace of Westminster, (e) 7 Millbank and (f) Portcullis House in each of the last three years. [5706]

Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Sir Stuart Bell: A summary of all temperature-related State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he works requests as recorded by the Parliamentary Estates has made of the level of payment of feed-in tariffs Directorate’s computerised case management system is necessary to encourage take-up of the scheme; and if as follows: he will make a statement. [5654] Number of cases received Charles Hendry [holding answer 5 July 2010]: The January to January to January to Impact Assessment of Feed-in Tariffs for Small Scale, December 2007 December 2008 December 2009 Low Carbon, Electricity Generation published on 1 Parliament 191 183 194 1 February, and available from the DECC website at: Street www.decc.gov.uk/fits Norman Shaw 54 47 56 considered the levels of payment necessary to encourage North Norman Shaw 17 18 17 take-up of the scheme. South This assessment estimated that tariff rates realising The Palace of 259 276 277 an index linked rate of return of 5 to 8% would incentivise Westminster 750,000 small scale low carbon electricity generating 7 Millbank 56 40 84 installations. Portcullis House 120 122 61 The FITs scheme has been running since 1 April and The information recorded on the case management we are continually collecting data on uptake. As we system does not distinguish between complaints about learn more, this information will be fed into the review air conditioning and all other temperature-related requests process. for work. Nor does it distinguish between offices and other parts of the Parliamentary Estate. Wind Power Departmental Security Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has Mr Amess: To ask the hon. Member for made of the effects of wind turbines on nearby wildlife Middlesbrough, answering for the House of Commons populations. [6217] Commission how many (a) males and (b) females in each age group had a Palace of Westminster security Charles Hendry: The UK operates strict controls to pass (i) suspended and (ii) revoked in each year since protect the natural environment, and any planning 2007; and for what reason in each case. [5442] application for a wind farm which is likely to have a significant effect on the environment by virtue of factors Sir Stuart Bell: Data on gender and age are not such as size, nature or location is subject to environmental collected as part of the pass issue process. It is not impact assessment. Statutory nature conservation bodies possible to distinguish numbers of males and females in are consulted upon the scope and outcomes of the each age group who had passes suspended or revoked environmental impact assessment. without disproportionate work. Local and national planning authorities can and do Information on passes suspended and revoked in refuse planning permission for proposed wind farms each year since November 2007 is set out in the following where there are likely to be significant impacts on local table. In each case the reason for the suspension or wildlife populations which cannot be acceptably mitigated. revocation was an investigation instigated by the sponsor Where appropriate, conditions can be placed on a wind of the pass. The detailed reason in each case has not farm to ensure that any impacts on local wildlife populations been provided because it could identify the individual are minimised, avoided or compensated. This may include concerned. post development monitoring of wildlife. The wildlife impacts of offshore windfarms are also Number Status looked at strategically as part of DECC’s offshore 2007 2 Revoked energy strategic environmental assessment process. The 2007 2 Temporarily suspended most recent 2009 report concluded that up to 33GW of 2008 7 Revoked offshore wind could be installed without unacceptable 2008 3 Temporarily suspended environmental consequences, providing that suitable 2009 11 Revoked mitigation measures are incorporated on a site by site 2009 9 Temporarily suspended basis. 2010 2 Revoked 151W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 152W

Number Status Pass category description 2010 2009 2008 2007

2010 3 Temporarily suspended Staff of House of Commons 19 23 18 7 Note: Escort These figures have been taken from the Pass Office database introduced in Staff of House of Lords 87 182 91 20 November 2007. Data prior to this date are archived and access would require Staff of House of Lords 9221 modification to system software at disproportionate cost. Escort

Mr Amess: To ask the hon. Member for The figures above represent the number of passes Middlesbrough, answering for the House of Commons printed in each category during each period and so Commission how many security passes allowing access include replacements for those that have been renewed, to the Parliamentary Estate were issued in each lost or have been reported faulty. category in each of the last five years; and if he will The figure of 1,027 passes issued in the Member make a statement. [5443] category for 2010 includes 300 passes used during an exercise to test the New Members Reception Area prior Sir Stuart Bell: The number of security passes allowing to the general election. access to the parliamentary estate issued in each category The figures have been taken from the Pass Office from 2007 to date is set out in the following table: database introduced in November 2007. Data prior to this date is archived and access would require modification Pass category description 2010 2009 2008 2007 to system software at disproportionate cost.

Contractor Works 794 1,406 1,221 229 Contractor Works Escort 165 267 221 55 Ex-Member 149 64 80 22 DEFENCE Full Pass Holder Both Houses 21 56 40 2 Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Full Pass Holder House of 464 896 667 233 Commons Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Full Pass Holder House of 2252 Commons Members Library Defence pursuant to the answer of 21 June 2010, Full Pass Holder House of 112 171 161 65 Official Report, column 2W, on Afghanistan: Commons Officer peacekeeping operations, what proportion of the Full Pass Holder House of 44 73 49 26 increase in the operational allowance will be met from Commons Whips (a) the Government reserve and (b) his Department’s Full Pass Holder House of 150 302 186 89 core defence budget. [4707] Lords Full Pass Holder House of 26 79 38 24 Dr Fox [holding answer 28 June 2010]: The operational Lords Officer allowance, currently estimated to be a total of £114 million Full Pass Holder House of 9241811 Lords Whips in 2010-11, is drawn equally from the Government Full Pass Holder Staff of 560 1,306 1,181 535 Reserve and the core defence budget. This reflects the Both Houses priority that this Government places on both supporting Full Pass Holder Staff of 50 78 52 42 our armed forces on operations and putting the military Both Houses Officer covenant on a proper footing. The contribution made Full Pass House of Commons 352 75 88 24 from the defence budget also acknowledges that, although Full Pass House of Lords 77 114 80 61 total Defence expenditure has been protected in 2010-11, Government Department Staff 507 2,079 2,278 799 it is vital that all departments prioritise resources to the Government Department Staff 104 491 474 176 front line, and assist in the key task of reducing the debt Escort inherited by the new Government. Gymnasium 46 80 97 33 Hereditary Peer 31 21 6 5 Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for MEP 0730Defence pursuant to the Prime Minister’s oral Media 46 88 95 24 statement of 14 June 2010, Official Report, columns Media Escort 19 34 27 7 663-66, on Afghanistan, what functions are to be Media Gallery 49 59 59 9 supported by the £67 million for countering the threat Media Lobby 111 172 152 32 from improvised explosive devices in Afghanistan. Member 1,027 90 105 17 [5032] Member Staff 1,578 1,256 1,562 362 Member Staff Member 25 15 18 8 Dr Fox: The allocation of an additional £67 million Library to support the campaign to counter the Improvised Peer Staff 246 475 431 124 Explosive Device (IED) threat in Afghanistan will result Peers 180 222 144 78 in a significant increase in the number of Counter-IED Residents Guest 6 10 0 0 teams in theatre. The additional capabilities they will be Restricted Pass Holder 216 413 366 108 provided with, including protected vehicles and remote Restricted Pass Holder Driver 75 77 79 18 control vehicles, will increase the protection available to Restricted Pass Holder Escort 22 52 53 16 our armed forces, and will enhance their ability to Restricted Pass Holder Tour 152 201 168 9 defeat these devices. In this way, the additional capabilities Guide will contribute significantly to the safety not only of RetiredOfficer 2319 our armed forces and our allies but also members of the Staff of Both Houses 328 486 441 148 Afghanistan National Security Forces and the local Staff of Both Houses Escort 113 183 112 45 population, who are also victims of the indiscriminate Staff of House of Commons 145 324 205 41 use of IEDs. 153W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 154W

Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to the core Defence budget. The costs that the Department what estimate he has made of expenditure on military would have incurred regardless of the operation taking operations in Afghanistan in each year from 2002-03 to place, such as wages and salaries, are not included. 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. [6141] Savings on activities that have not occurred because of the operation—training exercises for example—are taken Dr Fox [holding answer 5 July 2010]: The net additional into account in arriving at the net figures. costs incurred on military operations in Afghanistan The annual audited figures for the costs of operations (Operation Herrick) are met by the HM Treasury- in Afghanistan since 2002-03 are provided in the following administered Government Reserve and are in addition table:

£ million 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Resource 236 36 58 148 560 1,071 1,655 Capital Costs 75 10 9 51 178 433 968 Total 311 46 67 199 738 1,504 2,623

The Estimated Cost of Operations1 in Afghanistan at Due to the way in which information is captured on Spring Supplementary Estimates (SSE) for Financial the Joint Personnel Administration system, discharge Year 2009-10 is in the following table: information by individual Regiment is not available. 1 The outturn figures for Afghanistan have not yet been The number of discharges for each Arm and Corps in audited by the NAO and as such, I am only able to 2007-08 and 2008-09 is shown in the following table. provide the figures at this time. The figures are for trained regular personnel only, and SSE forecast 2009-10 for 2007-08 include other categories of departure such (£ million) as death and long-term absence. Resource 2,515 Arm/Corps 2007-08 2008-09 Capital 1,672 Total estimated costs 4,187 Staff n/a 70 Household Cavalry/ Royal 610 570 The Estimated Cost of Operations in Afghanistan at Armoured Corps Main Estimate for FY Royal Regiment of Artillery 850 720 2010-11 is as follows: Corps of Royal Engineers 1,010 930 ME forecast 2010-11 Royal Corps of Signals 800 740 (£ million) Infantry 3,480 2,330 Army Air Corps 180 170 Resource 2,940 Royal Logistics Corps 1,660 1,480 Capital 1,496 Royal Army Medical Corps 190 230 Total estimated costs 4,436 Corps of Royal Electrical and 940 920 Mechanical Engineers The figures for 2010-11 exclude the costs of the Adjutant General’s Corps 590 570 doubling of the operational allowance (estimated to be Royal Army Veterinary 20 20 in the region of £57 million) that are being paid by the Corps core Defence budget, reflecting the priority that this Small Arms School Corps 10 10 Government places on both supporting our armed forces Royal Army Dental Corps 20 20 on operations and rebuilding the military covenant. This also acknowledges that, although total defence Intelligence Corps 100 140 1 expenditure has been protected in 2010-11, it is vital Army Physical Training —30 Corps that all Departments prioritise resources to the front Queen Alexandra’s Royal 30 70 line and assist in the key task of reducing Government Army Nursing Corps debt inherited from the previous administration. Corps of Army Music 70 60 Long Service List n/a 60 2 Army: Discharges No Value (Unknown) 70 — Royal Army Chaplain’s n/a 10 Department Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Total 10,680 9,160 how many members of each regiment of the Army 1 denotes zero. were discharged in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; and if 2 denotes fewer than five. he will make a statement. [5728] ‘n/a’ denotes information is not available. Note: Mr Robathan [holding answer 5 July 2010]: Members All figures are provisional due to Joint Personnel Administration of the Army can be discharged for a variety of reasons, System data validation issues. When rounding to the nearest 10, numbers ending in five have been rounded to the nearest multiple of including on medical grounds, as a result of administrative 20 to prevent systematic bias. Totals and sub-totals have been or disciplinary action, reaching the end of an engagement rounded separately and so may not appear to be the sum of their and when an individual leaves the Army voluntarily. parts. 155W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 156W

Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence “The process to define how Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde’s which regiments in the British Army provide (a) Intelligent Customer role is fulfilled needs to be established psychiatric advice, (b) psychological advice, (c) advice within Safety Management Arrangements. This process must on re-skilling and continued education, (d) advice on define the Intelligent Customer function and ensure that stakeholders, such as BAE Systems, MOD Project Teams and other suppliers of resettlement, (e) advice on debt management, (f) supporting services have adequate reciprocal arrangements.” advice on alcohol misuse, (g) advice on drug misuse, As a result of this finding, the role of intelligent (h) advice on re-employment and (i) advice on customer has been addressed through a wider review. behavioural issues including anger management to The organisational change proposal associated with soldiers who are being discharged. [5729] that review has been endorsed by the Clyde Nuclear Mr Robathan [holding answer 5 July 2010]: The Safety Committee and has now been delivered to DNSR Royal Army Medical Corps will provide psychiatric for consideration, with the aim of resolving the issue advice, psychological advice, advice on alcohol misuse, within two to three months. advice on drug misuse and advice on behavioural issues Defence if it is needed. The Adjutant General Corps (Education and Training Services) provide advice through specifically Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for trained staff, or by practical workshops, on re-skilling Defence what opportunities are available for hon. and continued education, on resettlement, on Members and Members of the House of Lords to re-employment, and the financial aspects of resettlement. contribute to the Strategic Defence and Security These arrangements are complemented by the Chain Review. [5367] of Command and welfare staff. All service leavers are made aware of ex-service charities and welfare organisations Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for as part of the process and are able to take advantage of Defence what opportunities are available for (a) hon. career counselling services up to two years after having Members and (b) Members of the House of Lords to left. Lifetime job finding support is available through contribute to the strategic defence and security review. either the Officers Association or the Regular Forces [5373] Employment Association. Dr Fox: The Government scheduled a debate on the Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) on 21 June. what resettlement advice is given before discharge to In that debate I invited Members of both Houses to soldiers who have served fewer than four years; and if make submissions on the review formally to me. In addition, there will also be further such opportunities in he will make a statement. [5730] the House to debate the matter before the SDSR concludes. Mr Robathan [holding answer 5 July 2010]: All service Departmental Catering leavers are entitled to some form of resettlement advice. For those early service leavers that have served for fewer Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for than four years this advice is given by a specially trained Defence how much his Department spent on catering unit interviewing officer. Issues such as access to ex-service in each year from 1997 to 2009. [4853] welfare organisations, housing advice, job finding support as well as financial matters are covered. Information is Mr Robathan: Catering for Ministry of Defence civilian provided by a one to one discussion and a comprehensive personnel employed at United Kingdom Defence information pack. If it is considered necessary, for establishments is provided through Regional Prime example those vulnerable to social exclusion, access to a Contracts administered by Defence Estates or under Service Resettlement Advisor will be available. multi-activity contracts. UK based armed forces personnel For those service leavers, regardless of time served, are primarily catered for through catering, retail and who are medically discharged a full resettlement package leisure contracts (incorporating Pay As You Dine is available through the Career Transition Partnership. arrangements), which are being introduced across the UK. Some 62% of armed forces personnel are catered Clyde Submarine Base for under these arrangements. Information on the amount spent on catering under these contracts is not held Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Defence what shortfalls in the Clyde safety cost. management arrangements have been identified by the For United Kingdom armed forces personnel “in Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator at HMNB Clyde; barracks” (when personnel are not being fed under what steps will be taken to address those shortfalls; and catering, retail and leisure contracts), and those serving when he expects those shortfalls to have been on operations and overseas exercises, there is a single addressed. [5350] food supply contract with Purple Foodservice Solutions Ltd. The total value, including the cost of food, Peter Luff: Following an inspection, a demonstration administration and transport, for financial years 2001-02 exercise or permissioning of an activity, the Defence to 2008-09 was as follows: Nuclear Safety Regulator (DNSR) may identify and agree findings of non-compliance with authorisation £ million conditions. Findings are tracked and reviewed monthly, quarterly or annually depending on their significance. 2001-02 113 2002-03 114 DNSR has identified one finding relating to the 2003-04 139 HMNB Clyde Safety Management Arrangements, which 2004-05 128 is as follows: 157W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 158W

Dr Fox: The Department currently uses two separate £ million systems to calculate expenditure on travel. 2005-06 139 The armed forces use a system called the Joint Personnel 2006-07 135 Administration System based on Oracle E-Business 2007-08 145 Suite version 11.5.10. The self-service element used by 2008-09 176 service personnel to input information is Oracle I-Expenses version 11.5.10. Some travel and subsistence costs are The Department has also procured Operational Ration recorded via the payroll function, based on Oracle Packs over the same period for which the cost was as Payroll version 11.5.10. follows: For civilian personnel a system called Human Resources £ million Management Systems, which is a customised version Oracle PeopleSoft version 8.8 is used to authenticate 2001-02 14.6 the user’s identity and gain access to self-service e-forms. 2002-03 16.6 The e-forms provide an interface to the MOD’s civilian 2003-04 26.7 expenses payments and accounting system known as 2004-05 23.7 Compact, which is an in-house developed system including 2005-06 15.6 Oracle database version 8.1.7.4.0 and exploiting Oracle 2006-07 15.3 Forms 9i and PL/SQL scripts. 2007-08 18.1 Information from both these systems feed into the 2008-09 25.4 Defence Financial Management Information System The figures for the period 1997 to 2000 are not where the expenditure is recorded under MOD’s Resource available. Accounting Codes. Guided Weapons Departmental NDPBs Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will propose an agreement with the Defence what the address is of the head office of each governments of China, France and Russia to exchange non-departmental public body for which his and publish aerial and remote sensing photographs of Department is responsible. [5722] missile sites in each country. [4795]

Mr Robathan: A copy of the information requested Dr Fox: The UK does not have any geographically will be placed in the Library of the House. permanent missile sites. The UK shares military information, aerial imagery, with signatories of the Departmental Public Expenditure open skies agreement, which includes Russia and France, but not China, to promote openness and transparency between treaty members. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many of his Department’s contracts NATO: Medals with its suppliers are under review as a result of the recently announced reductions in public expenditure; Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for and what the monetary value is of all such contracts Defence if he will consider the merits of allowing which are under review; [3635] members of the armed forces to wear the NATO (2) how many officials in his Department are International Security Assistance Force Medal in working on renegotiating contracts for the supply of public. [5371] goods and services to the Department as a result of recently announced reductions in public spending; Mr Robathan: The official UK medal for Afghanistan what savings are expected to accrue to his Department is the Operational Service Medal—Afghanistan. Members from such renegotiations; how much expenditure his of the armed forces do not have permission to accept Department will incur on such renegotiations; and the NATO International Security Assistance Force Medal, when such renegotiations will be completed. [3657] because the current policy on medals is that there should be no double medalling. Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is currently The Government will be reviewing the rules governing reviewing all aspects of defence activity as part of the the award of medals in line with the commitment made Government’s Strategic Defence and Security Review in the coalition ‘Programme for Government’. (SDSR). The conclusion of the SDSR is likely to require RAF St Athan MOD to renegotiate specific contracts, but no decisions have yet been made. In the interim, MOD is participating in the actions announced by the Chancellor on 24 May Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for to reduce public spending. Defence if he will assess the likely effect on the morale of members of the armed forces and their families of the proposed transfer of naval engineering training Departmental Travel facilities to RAF St Athan. [5372]

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan [holding answer 5 July 2010]: While all Defence what the (a) name and (b) version is of each activity is subject to the Strategic Defence and Security computer software package used by his Department to Review, on current plans HMS Sultan is programmed calculate its expenditure on travel. [3706] to be one of the last units to relocate to St Athan, and 159W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 160W will do so by 2020. I am very aware how unsettling a Review’ which is a quality assurance tool developed and move such as this can be, but I am confident that the managed by the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies in chain of command will manage the change as smoothly which an experienced practitioner trained in the peer as possible. review framework reviews a sample of a supplier’s case Trident Missiles files to measure the quality of the advice it offers. Another indicator of effectiveness is the LSC’s key Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for performance indicator (KPI) recording the level of cases Defence if he will undertake not to seek an update of that accorded a ‘Substantive Benefit’ to the client. The the Trident D5 system during the period of discussions purpose of the substantive benefit KPI is to ensure that between China, France, Russia, the UK and the US on the cases undertaken by providers are concluded with a future nuclear disarmament following the UN Review definable benefit for the client. This is an indication of of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. [4794] the quality of work of the supplier. In the case of cases conducted by Shelter UK, this figure has always been Dr Fox: The 2010 review conference was an important greatly in excess of the required minimum level of 40%. milestone for the UK’s long-term vision for a world without nuclear weapons. The UK has made it clear By the very nature of legal aid eligibility, the LSC that, as soon as it becomes useful for the UK to include only pays Shelter to deliver cases that focus on and its nuclear stockpiles in broader disarmament negotiations, assist the most vulnerable of housing clients. we stand ready to participate and to act. Maintaining the UK’s nuclear deterrent beyond the Care Proceedings life of the current system is fully consistent with our obligations as a recognised nuclear weapon state under Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Therefore, the UK Justice how much time was spent on court time on care will continue to progress in replacing our existing nuclear hearings in (a) preparation and (b) court in each of deterrent. the last five years. [5762] Turkey: Military Bases Mr Djanogly: The information requested is unavailable. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Information on the in-court time of cases is not collected Defence if he will make it his policy to support the centrally on administrative data systems. The only means denuclearisation of the NATO air base at Incirlik. to collect this data would be the inspection of each [4905] individual case file which can be provided only at Dr Fox: NATO’s Strategic Concept (paragraph 63) disproportionate cost. states that: “nuclear forces based in Europe and committed to NATO Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for provide an essential political and military link between the European Justice (1) how much the Legal Services Commission and the North American members of the Alliance. The Alliance spent on solicitors’ and counsels’ fees in care will therefore maintain adequate nuclear forces in Europe.” proceedings in the last 12 months for which figures are www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_27433.htm available; [5766] It is NATO and UK policy to neither confirm nor (2) how much the Legal Services Commission spent deny the presence of nuclear weapons at a given location. on psychological and psychiatric assessments in care Weapons proceedings in the last 12 months for which figures are available. [5765] Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what his policy is on animal testing for the Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) purpose of developing weapons. [5503] spent £252.6 million on certificates in care proceedings on cases that closed in the 12 months ending 31 May Peter Luff: Dstl Porton Down undertakes the Ministry 2010. This figure includes solicitor fees, counsel fees, of Defence research programme that involves the use of and disbursements. The amounts paid under the animals. In accordance with Home Office guidance it is disbursement includes the costs of psychiatric and Dstl policy that living animals are not used to develop psychological reports where commissioned by the legal weapons. service provider. However, the LSC do not separately record the costs JUSTICE of psychological and psychiatric assessments from other disbursements incurred in care proceedings. Such Legal Aid assessments are commissioned independently by the solicitors which are, where appropriate, paid for by Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for the LSC as part of the overall disbursements claimed by Justice what assessment he has made of the the solicitors. effectiveness of legal aid funding provided by his Department through Shelter UK to support vulnerable Parents, children and those with parental responsibility families in housing need. [5666] are granted legal aid on a non means, non merits tested basis where the local authority issues proceedings for a Mr Djanogly: Shelter UK, like all holders of the care order to be made in respect of a child. For other Legal Services Commission (LSC) contracts, undergoes parties who may become involved in the proceedings, a regular assessment of its performance against the such as relatives, funding is also available but a means contract. Shelter has also successfully undergone ‘Peer and merits test will be applied. 161W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 162W

In addition to the costs of solicitors and counsel, Mr Blunt: The Council of Europe Convention on the disbursements will also be incurred, for expert reports, Transfer of Sentenced Persons provides for transfer on interpreters etc. a voluntary basis. As transfer requires the consent of both states involved and that of the prisoner, it is not Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for possible to estimate how many applications will be Justice how many care proceedings cases reached the approved in 2010-11. However, applications have been threshold for high cost cases in each of the last five received from 49 prisoners who are seeking transfer years. [5767] from the countries listed. See following table.

Mr Djanogly: The following volume of all public law Country Number of repatriation applicants Children Act certificates have been approved for costs France 6 of above £25,000, which is the criterion for very high Latvia 0 cost case. This covers care and supervision cases. Please Lithuania 0 note that the costs can cover several certificates where a The Netherlands 26 solicitor is representing a number of siblings. Poland 0 The Republic of Ireland 14 Certificates Romania 1 2005-06 1,866 Russian Federation 2 2006-07 1,272 2007-08 1613 In addition, since the first of April 2010, five prisoners 2008-09 1,280 have been transferred to prisons in The Netherlands 2009-10 1,774 and one prisoner has been transferred to Lithuania. 1 There was a change in operational procedures in 2006-07 which temporarily reduced the number of certificates approved with costs above £25,000 in advance of the final hearing. Courts: Closures

Corruption: Public service Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what plans he has to take account of (a) Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State socio-economic factors, (b) geographic factors and (c) for Justice who the members are of the Foreign Bribery the adequacy of public transport links in the South Strategy Board; and on what dates the Board has met. Wales valleys in his implementation of proposals for [5612] the closure of Magistrates’ and county courts. [5870]

Mr Kenneth Clarke: The following Departments and Mr Djanogly: The proposals are currently out to agencies are regular members of the Foreign Bribery public consultation and an initial impact assessment Strategy Board: has been produced. The impacts, costs and benefits of Attorney-General’s Office, Association of Chief Police the proposed court closures will be considered more Officers, Cabinet Office, City of London Police, Crown fully during the consultation phase and a full impact Office and Procurator Fiscal Office, Crown Prosecution assessment will be produced alongside the consultation Service, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, responses. Department for International Development, Export Credit Guarantee Department, Financial Services Authority, Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Ministry of Justice, Justice what assessment he has made of the likely effect Ministry of Defence Police and Guarding Agency, Office of his proposals to (a) merge and (b) close courts on of Government Commerce, Serious Fraud Office and the workload of each remaining magistrate’s court. UK Trade and Investment. [6331] Other Departments and agencies are invited as required Mr Djanogly: An initial impact assessment has been by the agenda. produced for the consultations. The impacts, costs and The Foreign Bribery Strategy Board has met five benefits of the proposed court closures and bench mergers times; 11 September 2009, 22 October 2009, 17 December will be considered more fully during the consultation 2009, 27 January 2010 and 21 April 2010. phase and a full impact assessment will be produced alongside the consultation responses. Council of Europe Prisoner Transfer Convention Utilisation rates currently average 64% across the magistrates courts. Courtroom utilisation is the time a Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice courtroom is used, against the hours that a courtroom (1) how many prisoners he expects to return to (a) is available for use. The Government’s aim is to increase France, (b) Romania, (c) the Netherlands, (d) utilisation of courtroom time to at least 80%. If the Lithuania, (e) Ireland, (f) Poland, (g) the Russian proposed closures went ahead and workload was transferred Federation and (h) Latvia to serve their sentences to surrounding courts it is estimated that it would result under the Council of Europe Prisoner Transfer in a national utilisation rate in the magistrates courts of Convention in 2010-11; [6035] around 80%. (2) how many prisoners he expects to return to the Additionally, there was an average of 130 sitting days UK from (a) France, (b) Romania, (c) Netherlands, per county courtroom per year in 2009-10. It is estimated (d) Lithuania, (e) Ireland, (f) Poland, (g) Russia and that the proposed closures of county courts would (h) Latvia in 2010-11 to serve their sentences under the result in an average of around 200 sitting days per Council of Europe prisoner transfer convention. [6655] county courtroom per year. 163W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 164W

Departmental Equality The average fine imposed at all courts for selected offences under the Road Traffic Act 19881 and Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, England and Wales, 20082,3 Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Average Justice how much has been spent by his Department Statute Offence description fine (£) (a) in total and (b) on staff costs on promoting Road Traffic Act 1988— Seat belt offences 66 equality and diversity in each of the last three years for sections 14(1) (2) & (3), which figures are available; and how many people are 15(1)(A) (2) & (4), & 15B. employed by his Department for that purpose. [5199] Road Vehicles (Construction Use of hand held mobile 101 and Use) Regulations 1986— phone while driving R.110(1). Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice aims to ensure Road Vehicles (Construction Causing or permitting the 82 equality and diversity is at the heart of all we deliver and Use) Regulations 1986— use of a mobile phone while and is an integral part of the work of all our staff. R.110(2). driving a motor vehicle Road Vehicles (Construction Using a mobile phone while 114 Across the various functions of the Ministry there is and Use) Regulations 1986— supervising the holder of a a range of equality and diversity work being undertaken R.110(3). provisional driving licence to in different ways as part of policy making, service drive a motor vehicle on the road delivery and staff support. 1 It is not possible to separately identify section 14(3) from other offences in However, to disaggregate this annual spend, and estimate sections 14 and 15. percentages devoted to the promotion of equality and 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted diversity across the Ministry could be obtained only at from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police disproportionate cost. forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those Driving Offences: Fines data are used. 3 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice Statistics Analytical Services - Ministry of Justice what the average fine levied on a person convicted of Driving Offences: Mobile Phones an offence under section (a) 14(3) and (b) 41D of the Road Traffic Act 1988 was in the last 12 months. [5439] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prosecutions there have been of people of Mr Blunt: The average fine imposed at all courts in each sex in each age group in (a) England and Wales, England and Wales for offences under the Road Traffic (b) Essex and (c) Southend for the offence of driving Act 1988, sections 14 and 15, for 2008 (latest available) while using a hand-held mobile telephone since the is given in the table. It is not possible to separately creation of that offence. [5438] identify section 14(3) from other offences in sections 14 and 15. Mr Blunt: The information requested was previously Section 41D gave authority to existing regulations, given in an answer to the hon. Gentleman on 8 March under the Road vehicles (Construction and use) Regulations 2010, Official Report, column 86W.The following table, 1986, to make certain offences endorsable. The average provides data up to 2008 (latest available), is as follows. fine imposed at all courts for these offences are also Data for 2009 are planned for publication on 21 October given in the table. 2010. Court proceedings data for 2009 are planned for Court proceedings data are not available at town or publication on 21 October 2010. parliamentary constituency level.

Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences of using a hand-held mobile phone while driving1, by sex and age, England and Wales and the Essex police force area, 2004 to 20082, 3 Area 2004 2005 2006 20074 20085, 6

England and Wales Males Aged 20 and under 16 31 27 374 849 Aged 21 and over 429 1,008 1,282 9,282 22,800 Total 445 1,039 1,309 9,656 23,649 Females Aged 20 and under 3 3 5 70 165 Aged 21 and over 34 126 137 1,185 3,179 Total 37 129 142 1,255 3,344 Persons Aged 20 and under 19 34 32 444 1,018 Aged 21 and over 463 1,134 1,419 10,467 26,074 Total 482 1,168 1,451 10,911 27,092 of which:

Essex police force area Males Aged 20 and under 2 1 — 14 57 Aged 21 and over 16 35 32 453 1,566 165W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 166W

Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences of using a hand-held mobile phone while driving1, by sex and age, England and Wales and the Essex police force area, 2004 to 20082, 3 Area 2004 2005 2006 20074 20085, 6

Total 18 36 32 467 1,623 Females Aged 20 and under 1 — — 9 10 Aged 21 and over 3 5 7 69 274 Total 4 5 7 78 284 Persons Aged 20 and under 3 1 — 23 67 Aged 21 and over 19 40 39 522 1,847 Total 22 41 39 545 1,914 1 Statute: Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 - R. 110(1), R. 110(2) and R. 110(3). Introduced 1 December 2003. Offence description: R.110(1) use of a hand-held mobile phone while driving; R.110(2) causing or permitting the use of a mobile phone while driving a motor vehicle R.110(3) using a mobile phone while supervising the holder of a provisional driving licence to drive a motor vehicle on the road. 2 The figures given relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, the offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 Tough new penalties for using a hand-held mobile phone while driving and for failing to have proper control of a vehicle came into effect on 27 February 2007. 5 Excludes convictions for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. 6 The gender of a defendant proceeded against may not have been reported. These data have been included in the persons only totals. Therefore, the males and females age group totals and sub-totals may not agree with the totals given under persons. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Magistrates’ Courts: Bradford Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will estimate the initial incidental cost to Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the public purse of transferring the work of Bingley Justice whether he plans to extend the operating hours Magistrates’ Court to Bradford Magistrates’ Court. at Bradford Magistrates’ Court. [5037] [5040]

Mr Djanogly: One of the purposes of the consultation Mr Djanogly: Following the public consultation, should on the closure of a number of courts is to improve the decision be made to close Keighley magistrates utilisation. Currently HM Courts Service has excess court (sitting at Bingley), analysis of the costs and capacity in magistrates’ when compared to the demand. benefits of transferring the work of the court will be As such there are no plans to extend the operating included in the impact assessment to be produced after hours, the current operating hours are considered sufficient. the consultation period.

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much unused (a) physical courtroom Justice if he will assess the effects on the (a) cost and capacity and (b) court time there is at Bradford (b) duration of journeys between prison and court of Magistrates’ Court; and what assessment he has made the merging of Bradford Magistrates’ Court and of the adequacy of unused capacity at Bradford Bingley Magistrates’ Court. [5041] Magistrates’ Court to accommodate current levels of work at Bingley Magistrates’ Court. [5039] Mr Djanogly: Details of the impacts of any closure on prison journeys will be included in the impact Mr Djanogly: Bradford magistrates court has 10 assessment that will be produced following the consultation courtrooms; Keighley magistrates court (sitting at Bingley) period. has four courtrooms. It is 12 miles from HMP Leeds to Keighley Based on local HMCS management information, for magistrates court (situated in Bingley) and it would take the 12-month period ending 30 April 2010 the average approximately 24 minutes to travel this distance. It is rolling monthly courtroom utilisation rate for Bradford eight miles from HMP Leeds to Bradford magistrates magistrates court was 63.7%. For the same period, the court and it would take approximately 16 minutes to average rolling monthly courtroom utilisation rate for travel this distance. Keighley magistrates court was 70.8%. The utilisation percentages are arrived at by comparing actual court During the three months from March to May 2010 sitting times with the time available (five hours being there were 52 prisoner journeys to Bingley. If these the length of a court in session for a day). journeys were to Bradford rather than Bingley there would be an overall reduction of around £250. In April 2010 the Bradford family proceedings court and family casework moved from the magistrates court to the Bradford combined court where a new hearing Magistrates Courts: Greater London room has been created. The assessment in light of the above is that there is Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for sufficient capacity at Bradford magistrates court to Justice for what reasons he proposes to merge the local accommodate the work of the Keighley magistrates justice areas of Lambeth and Southwark, Croydon and court. Sutton. [5042] 167W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 168W

Mr Djanogly: The reasons for the proposed local Mr Blunt: The prison and probation services operate justice area (LJA) mergers in London are set out on within the framework of the National Offender page 9 of consultation paper HMCS CP 12/10. Management Service (NOMS) Agency. For historical In inner London, LJAs generally cover two London reasons the two services have different employment boroughs; in outer London, LJAs cover one. This constrains structures. Prison service staff are civil servants and are our deployment of judiciary and distribution of work directly employed by the NOMS Agency. Probation load. service staff are not civil servants and are employed by a probation trust. We are consulting on a proposal to reduce the number of LJAs because fewer local Areas will make it possible Information on the career histories of senior for us to administer work more efficiently and distribute managers within NOMS does not include National work more effectively, unconstrained by existing borough Probation Service experience. It is therefore not boundaries. possible, without individually contacting all senior By being able to move work across borough boundaries managers, to determine how many have worked in more easily, to other courts where existing capacity is the Probation Service. Probation Service experience is not fully used, we will improve courtroom utilisation provided by staff on secondment from probation trusts and thereby make better use of courtroom capacity although the number of such staff across NOMS is not and, in turn, magistrates time. The proposed mergers recorded. will also reduce the costs associated with administering Previous experience within Prison Service establishments the current 28 LJAs and facilitate the more efficient is recorded. Of the 898 senior managers working in deployment of staff. NOMS who are civil servants, 281 (31%) are currently based in prisons, 216 (24%) are currently based in Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for headquarters but have previously served in prison Justice if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of establishments and 401 (45%) have no record of prison adapting Camberwell Green magistrates court to experience. Working in an establishment does not necessarily accommodate work transferred from Tower Bridge imply a prisoner facing role. magistrates court. [5043]

Mr Djanogly: While the proposed closure of Tower National Offender Management Service: Finance Bridge magistrates court forms part of the current consultation exercise, it has been under consideration Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for for several years as part of HMCS London Region’s Justice (1) how much has been spent on offender aspiration to improve magistrates court facilities and management services commissioned by each Director services across central and south London. The strategy of Offender Management since their inception; [5658] that has been developed envisages the replacement of a number of old, inefficient courthouses with three larger, (2) what proportion of the expenditure on services more modern and operationally efficient courthouses. commissioned by each Director of Offender The first of these, the new Westminster magistrates Management since their inception was allocated to (a) court in Marylebone, is due to open next year. voluntary sector and (b) private sector organisations. Within this overall strategy, the plan for Camberwell [5659] Green is to redevelop the site to construct five additional courtrooms. This plan has not been designed Mr Blunt: Table 1 as follows shows the amount spent solely to facilitate the closure of Tower Bridge magistrates on Offender Management Services commissioned by court, although expansion would allow closure and each Director of Offender Management since their disposal of the freehold courthouse. The key driver is to inception on 1 April 2009. enable HMCS to improve and modernise the facilities available to court users and generate greater listing Table 1 flexibility. The operationally-preferred option also creates Region Prisons Probation Total further capacity for international jurisdiction work in South West 178,957,314 66,451,730 245,409,044 response to significant workload growth in this area of West Midlands 196,365,763 98,029,900 294,395,663 business. London 177,676,936 153,962,000 331,638,936 Indicative costings only exist at present; depending North East 111,633,668 53,169,841 164,803,509 on the expansion option chosen, total works costs Wales 91,542,106 58,372,000 149,914,106 range between £9.3 million-£11.5 million. Inevitably Yorkshire and 201,135,803 95,864,000 296,999,803 the Humber the scheme and any consequential closure would only North West 361,560,346 78,000,695 439,561,041 progress once funding becomes available. This will be East of England 199,155,852 72,560,730 271,716,582 determined as part of Spending Review deliberations South East 356,241,895 101,735,564 457,977,459 later this year. East Midlands 248,601,223 68,748,770 317,349,993 Total 2,122,870906 846,895,230 2,969,766,136 National Offender Management Service Table 2 as follows shows the proportion of the Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for expenditure of services commissioned by each Director Justice how many and what proportion of senior of Offender Management allocated to the voluntary managers in the National Offender Management sector and private sector organisations. This will Service have a background in (a) the Probation Service include figures contained in Table 1 for Private Sector and (b) the Prison Service. [5668] prisons. 169W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 170W

Table 2 Cost (£ million) Region Voluntary sector Private Sector Total 2004-05 245.804 South West 0 23,141,092 23,141,092 2005-06 280.801 West Midlands 220,000 32,448,310 32,668,310 2006-07 279.148 London 0 0 0 2007-08 305.711 North East 0 0 0 2008-09 297.952 Wales 504,752 45,414,027 45,918,779 Yorkshire and 3,438,803 32,838,000 36,276,803 All services commissioned or delivered by Youth the Humber Offending Teams (YOTs) to young people within the North West 578,000 133,939,652 134,517,652 criminal justice system are intended to rehabilitate them East of England 1,736,922 31,292,633 33,029,555 and address the causes of their offending behaviour. South East 0 24,401,273 24,401,273 East Midlands 31036 45,964,340 45,995,376 The figures in the following table taken from published Total 6,509,513 369,439,327 375,948,840 YJB annual reports show that it allocated the following funding to YOTs for the delivery of such services to 10 The financial data in both tables is actual expenditure to 17-year-olds within the criminal justice system. for the financial year 2009-10. The information provided is the expenditure directly commissioned by each Director Allocated funding (£ million) of Management Services. 2004-05 94.410 2005-06 104.993 National Offender Management Service: Manpower 2006-07 113.698 2007-08 114.856 Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 117.310 Justice how many senior managers of grades A to D in the Prison Service are employed by the National The Youth Offending Teams also receive financial Offender Management Service (NOMS); and of these contributions from local police, probation and health how many are based (a) at NOMS headquarters and services; from the local authority; and from the Welsh (b) elsewhere. [5669] Assembly Government where appropriate.

Mr Blunt: On 31 March 2010 there are 898 senior Prison Sentences managers employed within the National Offender Management Service (NOMS). Of these 281 are based Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for in establishments and 617 are based in NOMS headquarters, Justice how many people given custodial sentences of which includes offices across the nine English regions less than 12 months in each of the last two years were and Wales and the National Shared Service Centre. convicted of each type of offence. [5364]

Non-departmental Public Bodies Mr Blunt: The requested information is provided in the following tables. The data shows the total number of immediate custody of less than 12 months for each Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for offence type and suspended custodial sentences for each Justice what the address is of the head office of each offence type. non-departmental public body for which his Department is responsible. [5713] Number of immediate custodial sentences of less than 12 months, by offence type, 2007-08 Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice is responsible Immediate custody 2007 2008 for over 30 distinct non department public bodies. I Violence against the person 5,680 6,252 have placed details of the office addresses of each non Sexual offences 396 447 departmental body for which the Ministry is responsible Burglary 4,249 4,432 in the Libraries of both Houses. Robbery 663 640 Theft and Handling stolen goods 17,935 19,280 Offenders: Rehabilitation Fraud and forgery 3,434 3,614 Criminal damage 786 616 Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Drug offences 2,045 2,201 Justice how much his Department has spent on (a) Other indictable (excluding motoring) 6,329 6,181 imprisonment and (b) rehabilitation of offenders Indictable motoring offences 1,006 869 under the age of 18 years in each of the last five years. Summary non-motoring 13.275 14,086 [6500] Summary motoring offences 7,892 6,378 Total 63,690 64,996 Mr Blunt: The cost of custody for under-18s reflect the intensive, rehabilitative regime in the under 18 estate— Number of suspended sentences by offence type, 2007-08 including the delivery of specific rehabilitation activity, Suspended sentences 2007 2008 for example education and substance misuse programmes. Violence against the person 7,167 7,501 The figures in the following table taken from published Sexual offences 439 424 Youth Justice Board annual reports show the cost of Burglary 2,405 2,432 purchasing places and regimes for children and young Robbery 452 444 people in the secure estate. Theft and Handling stolen goods 6,700 6,818 171W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 172W

Number of suspended sentences by offence type, 2007-08 Persons sentenced to immediate custody at all courts by offence 2008 Suspended sentences 2007 2008 Up to and Total immediate including six custody (all Fraud and forgery 2,391 2,780 Offence months sentence lengths) Criminal damage 525 453 Exploitation of Prostitution 9 51 Drug offences 2,678 2,958 Failing to Surrender to Bail 2,343 2,347 Other indictable (excluding motoring) 3,624 3,794 Indictable motoring offences 873 851 False Accounting 13 61 Summary non-motoring 7,266 7,696 Familial Sexual Offences (Incest) 1 72 Summary motoring offences 6,168 5,000 Firearms Act Offence 102 581 Total 40,688 41,151 Firearms Acts 32 32 Notes: Fishery Acts 2 2 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Although Forgery etc. of Drug Prescription 7 12 care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system Fraud, Forgery etc associated 89 2. This data has been taken from the Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings with Vehicle or Driver Records database. This data is presented on the principal offence basis. Where an Going Equipped for Stealing, etc. 395 441 offender has been sentenced for more than one offence the principal offence is Gross Indecency with Children 2 38 the one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed. Where the same sentence has been imposed for two or more offences the principal offence is the one for Handling Stolen Goods 1,055 1,498 which the statutory maximum is most severe. Health and Safety at Work etc. 58 3. Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July, and August 2008. Act 1974 Source: Justice Statistics—Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice Immigration Offence 40 40 Interference with Motor Vehicles 298 298 Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Kidnapping, etc. 2 310 how many people who were given custodial sentences Miscellaneous sexual offences 87 172 of up to six months in the latest year for which figures Money laundering offences 96 408 are available were convicted of each offence. [6084] Naval, Military and Air Force 11 Law - Army Offence against Public Order 1,381 1,383 Mr Blunt: The requested information is available in Offences involving impersonation 1 1 the following table. Offences Relating to Dogs 10 10 Persons sentenced to immediate custody at all courts by offence 2008 Other (Excluding Motoring 160 319 Up to and Total immediate Offences) including six custody (all Other Criminal Damage 425 496 Offence months sentence lengths) Other drug offences 56 478 Absconding from Lawful 234 291 Other Forgery etc. 1,049 3,338 Custody Other Fraud 1,065 2,211 Abstracting Electricity 19 23 Other Offence 2 2 Abuse of trust- sexual offences 11 22 Other Offence against the Liquor 33 Aggravated Vehicle Taking 342 719 Law Arson 67 524 Other Offence against the State 835 2,030 Assault: Common, etc 6,698 6,698 or Public Order Assault: On Constable 1,777 1,778 Other Summary Offence 1,212 1,213 Assist Entry of Illegal Immigrant 232 402 (Excluding Motoring) Bankruptcy Offence 15 27 Other Theft or Unauthorised 1,543 1,729 Taking Betting or Gaming Offence 8 8 Other Wounding etc. 4,629 10,368 Bigamy 2 4 Perjury 19 46 Blackmail 7 124 Perverting the Course of Justice 429 797 Brothel Keeping 20 20 Buggery 1 30 Possession of a controlled drug - 870 985 Class A Burglary in a Building Other 2,241 3,250 than a Dwelling Possession of a controlled drug - 108 114 Class B Burglary in a Dwelling 1,322 6,446 Possession of a controlled drug - 296 316 Causing Death by Reckless 1 206 Class C Driving Possession of a controlled drug - 511 Child Abduction 1 22 Class unspecified Criminal Damage Endangering 642 Possession of Obscene Material 135 515 Life etc. Cruelty to Animal 71 71 Procuring Illegal Abortion 1 1 Cruelty to or Neglect of Children 40 133 Production, supply and 116 4,984 Dangerous Driving 479 1,386 possession with intent to supply a Disclosure, obstruction, false or 16 17 controlled drug - Class A misleading statements Production, supply and 45 379 Disorderly Behaviour 5 5 possession with intent to supply a Driving licence related offences: 22controlled drug - Class B Making false statements Production, supply and 275 1,179 Drug Offence 47 47 possession with intent to supply a controlled drug - Class C Drunkenness, with Aggravation 6 6 Education Acts 28 28 Production, supply and 1 278 possession with intent to supply a Endangering Life at Sea 1 1 controlled drug - Class Endangering Railway Passenger 5 11 unspecified 173W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 174W

Persons sentenced to immediate custody at all courts by offence 2008 Persons sentenced to immediate custody at all courts by offence 2008 Up to and Total immediate Up to and Total immediate including six custody (all including six custody (all Offence months sentence lengths) Offence months sentence lengths) Video Recording Act 1984 2 2 Prostitution - Kerb Crawling 42 42 Violent Disorder 54 349 Protection from Eviction Act 11Wounding or other act 27 1,632 1977. Endangering Life Public Health 6 11 Notes: 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Although Railway Offence 11 11 care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Robbery 317 5,095 2. This data has been taken from the Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Sexual activity etc. with a person 114database. This data is presented on the principal offence basis. Where an with a mental disorder offender has been sentenced for more than one offence the principal offence is the one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed. Where the same sentence Sexual Activity with child under 7 105 has been imposed for two or more offences the principal offence is the one for 13 which the statutory maximum is most severe. 3. Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July, and August Sexual Activity with child under 17 467 2008. 16 Source: Justice Statistics - Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice Ref: PQ(JSAS) 6084 Sexual Assault on a Female 139 991 (02/07/2010) Sexual Assault on a Male 8 131 Prison Service: Contracts Sexual Offences- Miscellaneous 1 1

Social Security Offence 31 31 Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Stage Carriage or Public Service 44 Vehicle Offence Justice (1) how many suppliers were contracted to supply fresh produce to the Prison Service in each year Summary Aggravated Vehicle 349 351 since 2004; and how many of those suppliers were Taking located in the Prison Service area they were contracted Summary Criminal or Malicious 1,253 1,253 to supply; [5357] Damage Offence (2) what the cost to the public purse was of Summary Motoring Offences 6,377 6,378 purchasing fresh produce for the Prison Service in each Theft by an Employee 133 305 year since 2004. [5358] Theft from Automatic Machine 53 73 or Meter Mr Blunt: The number of suppliers contracted to Theft from Shops 12,390 12,584 supply fresh produce to prisons between 2004 and 2007 was 18. Suppliers determined the list of prisons they Theft from the Person of 1,324 1,957 Another preferred to supply during the tender process which was evaluated against predetermined criteria. Subsequently, Theft from Vehicle 1,020 1,073 contracts were awarded to suppliers on a regional and/or Theft in Dwelling not Automatic 229 259 national basis dependant on their location and capability Machine or Meter to fulfil our requirements to ensure the most cost effective Theft of Motor Vehicle 198 255 and best value for money option achieved. All prisons Theft of Pedal Cycle 91 91 had a minimum of two local suppliers to choose from on a weekly basis to purchase their requirements. The Theft or Unauthorised Taking 22 34 from Mail full list of suppliers is shown as follows.

Threat etc., to commit Criminal 66 95 Supplier names Damage ADavid&Co.Ltd Threat or Conspiracy to Murder 37 201 Augro Fresh Ltd Trade Descriptions Act and 232 290 Bristol Fruit Sales Similar Offences F W Gedney Unauthorised Taking of a 691 691 G W Price Ltd Conveyance Greenvale AP plc Unlawful exportation - Class 13 unspecified Histon Produce Co. Ltd Hopelake Food Group Unlawful importation - Class A 1 525 John Palin Ltd Unlawful importation - Class B 1 19 M J Morris & Son Ltd Unlawful importation - Class C 4 169 Minor Weir & Willis Ltd Unlawful importation - Class 226Peachey Catering Services Ltd unspecified R S Cockerill Ltd Unlawful Possession 1 1 Redbridge Produce and Flowers Ltd Vagrancy Offences – Begging 1 1 S T Holmes Vagrancy Offences - Found In 55 55 Enclosed Premises Swithenbank Foods Thomas Baty Ltd Vehicle insurance offences: 45 Making false statements Tom Mitchell Ltd 175W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 176W

In 2007, a national framework contract was awarded Prisons: Drugs to 3663 First for Foodservice, which includes the provision of fresh fruit and vegetables. 3663 fulfil this requirement of national supply through 13 regional depots. This Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for contract is in place until May 2011. Justice what plans he has to improve drug treatment facilities in prisons. [5645] The cost to the public purse for the provision of fresh produce in prisons in each year from 2004 is detailed as follows. Mr Blunt: This Government recognise that drug treatment is essential if we are to tackle the social and Financial year (April-March) Spend (£) health costs caused by drugs. However, more needs to be done to help drug misusers to recover from their 2004-05 n/a addiction and get into steady housing and employment. 2005-06 8,342,033 We believe the balance of treatment currently has tipped 2006-07 9,045,572 too far towards maintaining drug users’ addictions. 2007-08 9,057,806 A comprehensive framework of drug treatment is in 2008-09 9,444,015 place in prisons to address the drug needs of all offenders. 2009-10 8,552,184 This comprises clinical services, psychosocial interventions, 2010-111 2,198,534 case management and through care services. n/a = Not available 1 Spend from April-June 2010 Through a phased introduction that began in 2006, the Integrated Drug Treatment System (IDTS) is bringing Prior to the introduction of our electronic purchasing improvements to the quality of prison treatment. system in 2007, spend data from suppliers was held Department of Health funding has risen to around regionally and relied on suppliers submitting information £45 million in 2010-11, with IDTS due to be rolled out on a regular basis. Consistent information was centrally to all English adult prisons by March 2011. collated from the start of the 2005 financial year and therefore, spend information for the 2004 financial year We will explore the best ways to help more in not available from our central office. offenders get off drugs for good and into a position where they can stop offending and make a proper Prison Service: Retirement contribution to society. We will consider all viable options in the context of a full review of sentencing and Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for rehabilitation policy. Justice what his policy is on raising the retirement age for prison officers. [5639] Probation Mr Iain Wright: The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) does not have any current plans Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for to increase the retirement age for prison officers. A Justice how much was spent on probation services new retirement policy was implemented in March 2010 commissioned by each probation trust in the latest year in response to Permanent Secretaries decision to for which information is available; and what proportion reduce the use of mandatory retirement ages in the civil of that funding was allocated to (a) the National service. Probation Service, (b) the voluntary sector and (c) the NOMS currently operates a normal retirement age of private sector. [5671] 65 for all prison officer grades. Staff subject to a normal retirement age are entitled to request an extension of Mr Blunt: The following table provides the expenditure service beyond this age, and to a right of appeal where a for probation services commissioned by the 8 probation request is declined. trusts that were in existence in 2009-10 financial year.

Trust Delivered internally Voluntary sector Private sector Local authorities Total

West Mercia Trust 16,710,000 570,000 63,000 361,000 17,704,000 South Wales Probation Trust 24,239,000 1,332,000 146,000 0 25,717,000 Dyfed Powys Probation Trust 8,260,000 559,000 17,000 0 8,836,000 Humberside 14,100,000 700,000 0 200,000 15,000,000 Manchester 51,821,771 446,056 629,263 103,977 53,001,067 Merseyside 30,434,000 270,000 173,000 175,000 31,052,000 Lancashire 23,032,674 210,120 313,406 509,425 24,065,625 Leicestershire 14,377,500 320,200 358,100 268,200 15,324,000 Total 182,974,945 4,407,376 1,699,769 1,617,602 190,699,692

The figures for the response to proportion Young Offenders allocated to (a) the National Probation Service have been provided as allocated for services delivered internally. For the sake of clarity the table also shows Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for where individual trusts commission services from local Justice how much his Department and its predecessor authorities. spent on preventative measures to tackle youth offending in the last five years. [6417] 177W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 178W

Mr Blunt: The figures in the following table are taken Food: Fat and Salt from published Youth Justice Board annual reports show the incurred expenditure on specific prevention Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for programmes for the last five years. This does not include Health (1) what steps his Department is taking to significant investment on prevention from the Home encourage (a) food manufacturers, (b) caterers and Office and Department for Education, or local investment (c) food producers to reduce the amount of saturated in prevention programmes: fat in food products; [5187]

Incurred expenditure (£ million) (2) what steps his Department is taking to ensure (a) food producers and (b) caterers continue to reduce the 2004-05 8.24 salt content of commonly consumed foods. [5189] 2005-06 10.135 2006-07 23.728 Mr Burstow: The Government recognise the extensive 2007-08 32.402 work already carried out to encourage the food industry 2008-09 36.479 to reduce levels of salt and saturated fat in food, and the significant achievements that have been made by all The YJB annual accounts for 2009-10 will be published sectors of the food industry. later this month. We are committed to improving public health, and Young Offenders: Special Educational Needs we will continue to engage with the food industry on areas such as product reformulation. Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for The Food Standards Agency has a programme in Justice how many young offenders with (a) place to reduce salt intakes in the United Kingdom statemented and (b) non-statemented special from levels of around 9.5g (in 2000-01) to no more than educational needs have been placed in young offender 6g/day for adults, and lower levels for children. To institutions in each of the last 10 years. [5446] achieve this objective work has been undertaken with the UK food industry, including caterers, to reduce Mr Blunt: These data are not collected centrally. In levels of salt in food; a public awareness campaign has the research for Evaluation of Asset, carried out but been run to inform consumers of why a high salt intake Oxford University for the Youth Justice Board in 2002, is bad for health and what they can do to reduce their 25% of the sample of young offenders had special needs intakes; and signpost labelling is provided to consumers identified, and just over 60% of those had a statement on food labels to help them make informed choices. of special educational needs (SEN). Health Hazards: Radon Gas

Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Health HEALTH what advice is available to householders on the dangers Arthritis: Health Services of radon gas; and if he will make a statement. [5481]

Mr Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if Mr Simon Burns: The Health Protection Agency’s he will include the care of rheumatoid arthritis as a (HPA) Radiation Protection Division provides advice priority in the next iteration of his Department’s world on risks from all types of radiation including radon gas. class commissioning assurance framework. [5275] The HPA has recently created a new website: www.ukradon.org Mr Burstow: There are no plans for a further iteration which also hosts the new radon map developed in of the commissioning assurance framework. collaboration with the British Geological Survey. HPA The ‘Coalition: our programme for government’ specifically targets high risk areas with roadshows and document confirms this Government’s intention to campaigns and provide free measurements to householders strengthen the power of GPs as patients’ expert guides in these areas; and to mitigate houses that are found to through the health system by enabling them to commission have extremely high readings. care on their behalf. We will bring forward more detailed proposals in due course. Health Services Complementary Medicine: Expenditure David Tredinnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what percentage of treatments available Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for through the NHS his Department classifies as fully Health whether he has made an estimate of the evidence-based. [6380] expenditure by each NHS primary care trust on commissioning (a) homeopathic and (b) chiropractic Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold a therapies in each of the last 10 years. [4389] central list of treatments available through the national health service. Anne Milton: Data on spending in these areas is not routinely collected by the Department. Decisions on the Health Services: Standards commissioning and funding of any treatment are the responsibility of local national health service organisations. David Tredinnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Issues such as safety, clinical and cost effectiveness, and Health if he will take steps to ensure that patient the availability of suitably qualified/regulated practitioners satisfaction outcomes are considered in the need to be taken into account when making such decisions. commissioning of NHS services. [6379] 179W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 180W

Mr Simon Burns: This Government are committed to duration to departure times in minutes for James Paget putting patients at the heart of the national health University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust for 2007-08 service, and focussing the NHS on delivering better and 2008-09. outcomes for patients. This focus on outcomes will include improving the experience of patients. We will be Number of Mean duration to Median duration to attendances bringing forward proposals on this area in due course. departure (minutes) departure (minutes) recorded

Homeopathy: Expenditure 2007-08 112 97 61,236 2008-09 123 111 61,753 Notes: David Tredinnick: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. The table shows average A&E duration to departure times in minutes for Health what percentage of the total NHS budget was James Paget University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust from 2007-08 to 2008-09. spent on homeopathic services in the last 10 years. 2. Duration to Departure: The time (expressed as a whole number of minutes) [6377] between the patient’s arrival and the time the A&E attendance has concluded and the department is no longer responsible for the care of the patient. 3. Number of attendances recorded: An attendance is a record for every patient Anne Milton: Data on spending on homeopathic that attends an A&E department, including a major A&E department, single services as a whole are not routinely collected by the specialty A&E departments, walk-in centres and minor injuries units. Any one patient can have multiple attendances, which may be in the same or different Department. time periods, for the same or different condition. 4. A&E Data Quality:HES are compiled from data sent by a number of national health service providers across England. The NHS Information centre James Paget University Hospitals NHS Foundation for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage Trust submission of complete and valid data and to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. The A&E HES publications Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for address some of the key data quality and coverage issues. These are available on HES online at: Health how many nurses the James Paget University www.hesonline.nhs.uk Hospitals Foundation Trust has employed in each of Source: the last five years. [6174] Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

Mr Simon Burns: The following table shows headcount Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for for qualified nurses, midwifery and health visiting staff Health (1) how many avoidable deaths occurred at at St James Paget University Hospitals NHS Foundation James Paget University Hospitals Foundation Trust in Trust as at 30 September each year. each of the last five years; [6177]

2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 (2) how many deaths resulting from complications during surgery there have been at James Paget Qualified 795 760 780 839 867 University Hospitals Foundation Trust in each of the staff last five years. [6178] Qualified 116 14 51 82 84 Bank staff Grand total 911 774 831 921 951 Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is a Notes: matter for James Paget University Hospitals NHS 1. This shows qualified nursing staff totalled and split by qualified nursing Foundation Trust. We have written to John Hemming, substantive staff and qualified bank nursing staff. chair of James Paget University Hospitals NHS Foundation 2. Banking nursing staff are employees of a trust or wider national health service (e.g. through NHS Professionals) who work on an ad-hoc basis. This Trust, informing him of the hon. Friend’s enquiry. He could include staff working only as Bank staff, or substantive employees who will reply shortly and a copy of the letter will be placed also work some additional time through the bank system. in the Library. Source: Information Centre for health and social care. Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people have been prosecuted for Health how many cardiology operations at James Paget attacks on staff at James Paget University Hospitals University Hospitals Foundation Trust have been Foundation Trust in the last 12 months. [6179] cancelled in the last 12 months. [6175] Mr Simon Burns: The James Paget University Hospitals Mr Simon Burns: We are advised that The James Foundation Trust has reported no prosecutions for Paget Hospital University Hospital NHS Foundation attacks on staff in the last 12 months. Trust does not undertake any cardiology operations. Muscular Dystrophy: Social Services Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the average waiting time in the accident Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and emergency department at James Paget University if he will take steps to ensure that muscular dystrophy Hospitals Foundation Trust was in each of the last five care advisors are appointed in each region. [6245] years. [6176] Mr Burstow: The national health service in England Mr Simon Burns: Information is not collected in the has agreed to create further care co-ordinator roles, as format requested. well as take over the funding of those posts currently Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) accident and funded by the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign. This emergency (A&E) data is only available from 2007-08. will bring the complement of care- co-ordinator posts The following table sets out the mean and median in England to 16. 181W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 182W

NHS: Standards Strokes: Health Services

Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health when he expects the Care Quality Commission if he will discuss with voluntary sector providers the to publish the outcomes of its next set of annual health effect on stroke survivors and carers of ending checks for health providers and commissioners. [5230] ring-fenced funding for the National Stroke Strategy. [5888] Mr Simon Burns: In October, for benchmarking purposes Mr Simon Burns: Arrangements are being made for the Care Quality Commission intends to publish 2009-10 me to meet representatives of the Stroke Association performance by national health service organisations where a range of issues will be discussed. against each of the indicators set out in the NHS Operating Framework. Strokes: Health Services and Education

Patient Choice Schemes Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what funding he plans to allocate to strategic health David Tredinnick: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities for stroke service development in the next Health what assessment he has made of the financial year; [5290] effectiveness of the Choose and Book system in (2) what funding he plans to allocate to raising widening patient choice. [6378] public and professional awareness of stroke in the next financial year. [5291] Mr Simon Burns: The February 2010 ‘National Patient Choice Survey’, published on 30 June, shows that of Mr Simon Burns: Funding allocations from 2011-12 those patients offered a choice of hospital, 73% booked to 2014-15 will be subject to the spending review, which their appointment through Choose and Book. The choice will be announced in October. of date and time varied by method of booking, with 26% of those who booked when the hospital contacted them being offered a choice of date and time, compared TREASURY with 41% of those booked through Choose and Book in the surgery, 56% of those calling an appointments line Banks: Finance and 85% of those booking via Choose and Book on the internet. Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects each contribution from the Exchequer Primary Care Trusts: Finance to banks in which UK Financial Investments Ltd has a stake to be repaid; and if he will make a statement. [6140] Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he expects to announce his decision on Mr Hoban: UK Financial Investments Ltd. (UKFI) the allocation of funding to primary care trusts in was set up by the Government to manage its investments financial years (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13 and (c) in financial institutions at arm’s length and on a commercial 2013-14. [5744] basis. UKFI’s strategy for managing and ultimately divesting the investments over time is available at: Mr Simon Burns: The coalition agreement commits www.ukfi.co.uk to increases in health spending in real terms in each year of the Parliament. Final departmental spending plans Business: Insolvency will be announced in the Spending Review in the autumn. Then the NHS operating framework for 2011-12 will set Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the out the detail of both revenue and capital allocations in Exchequer how many and what proportion of this revised funding context. businesses were entered into insolvency by HM Revenue and Customs in the last 12 months for which Strategic Health Authorities: Translation Services figures are available; and in how many such cases HM Revenue and Customs was the sole creditor. [6491]

Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gauke: The number of bankruptcy and Health how much each (a) strategic health authority company winding up orders granted to HMRC in England and (b) primary care trust spent on translation services and Wales from April 2009 to March 2010 was around in each of the last five years; and if he will make a 6,150 which equates to around 8% of those granted statement. [6673] overall. The other information is not available centrally and Mr Burstow: When planning such services, national could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. health service bodies should take due account of their legal duties, the composition of the communities they Child Benefit serve, and the needs and circumstances of their patients, service users and local populations. Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Chancellor of the NHS bodies are not required to report their planned Exchequer how many (a) mothers receive child benefit or actual spending on interpretation and translation and (b) children trigger payments of child benefit in services to the Department. Makerfield constituency. [6195] 183W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 184W

Barbara Keeley: To ask the Chancellor of the Justine Greening: The following items of HM Treasury Exchequer how many (a) mothers receive child benefit property were reported lost or stolen during the 12 and (b) children trigger payments in Worsley and months ending December 2009: Eccles South constituency. [6078] Property lost or stolen in 2009 Description Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many mothers receive child benefit in Stretford Lost 3 Blackberry mobile devices, 4 laptop USB tokens and Urmston constituency; and how many children Stolen 2 BlackBerry mobile devices, 1 remote access unit, 1 trigger child benefit payments in that constituency. laptop case, 1 PC mouse, 1 filing cabinet key [5843] The total cost of replacement is estimated at £2,100. Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Government Departments: Procurement Exchequer how many (a) mothers receive child benefit and (b) children trigger child benefit payments in (i) Gordon Banks: To ask the Chancellor of the Glasgow North and (ii) Ealing Central and Acton Exchequer what steps he plans to take to recoup any constituency. [6183] shortfall in his predicted savings from renegotiations of contracts with suppliers of goods and services to Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Chancellor of the Government Departments. [4692] Exchequer how many (a) mothers receive child benefit and (b) children trigger payments of child benefit in (i) Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply. Slough, (ii) Salisbury and (iii) Scarborough and Work being carried out across Government to renegotiate Whitby constituency. [6008] contracts within individual Departments is being augmented by a centrally led programme of work to engage in Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Chancellor of the commercial negotiations on a pan Government basis. Exchequer how many mothers receive child benefit in This is one strand that the Efficiency and Reform Houghton and Sunderland South constituency; and Group is taking forward to enable savings centrally. how many children trigger child benefit payments in Other strands include centralising procurement, driving that constituency. [5894] down the cost of the Government estate and reducing Diana R. Johnson: To ask the Chancellor of the unnecessary spend on consultancy and advertising. The Exchequer how many mothers in Kingston upon Hull Government will be driving each strand aggressively to North constituency are in receipt of child benefit; and deliver the maximum benefit across the planned initiatives and ensure that as much money as possible can be how many children trigger such payments. [6522] directed towards our priorities. Mr Gauke: The latest information on the number of Housing: Rents families receiving child benefit, by each parliamentary constituency, local authority and region is available in Helen Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the the HMRC snapshot publication “Child Benefit Statistics Exchequer what estimate he has made of the (a) 50th Geographical Analysis, August 2009”. This can be found percentile rent for (i) one, (ii) two, (iii) three, (iv) four at: and (v) five-bedroom properties in 2010-11 and (b) http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/child_benefit/chb-geog- 30th percentile rent for each type of property in (A) aug09.pdf Bishop Auckland and (B) Blackpool North and Child Care Tax Credit Cleveleys constituency. [5182] Rosie Cooper: To ask the Chancellor of the Ian Lavery: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer what his estimate is of the level of (a) 50th (1) how many families in (a) Wansbeck constituency percentile rents in 2010-11 and (b) 30th percentile and (b) the UK are in receipt of the childcare element rents in 2011-12 for (i) one, (ii) two, (iii) three, (iv) four of tax credits; [6089] and (v) five bedroom properties in West Lancashire (2) how many people in Motherwell and Wishaw constituency. [5629] constituency are in receipt of child tax credits. [6530] Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: The latest information on the number of what his estimate is of the level of (a) 50th percentile families with children benefiting from the childcare and (b) 30th percentile rents in 2011-12 for (i) one, (ii) element of tax credits, by each parliamentary constituency two, (iii) three, (iv) four and (v) five-bedroom and region, is available in the HMRC snapshot publication properties in Stretford and Urmston constituency. “Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics. Geographical [5855] Analyses. April 2010”. This can be found at: Mr Gauke: The 50th percentile rents for each category http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- is the local housing allowance (LHA) median rate which apr2010.pdf is published each month. These rates are available at: Departmental Lost Property http://www.voa.gov.uk/LHADirect/lha-rates-england.htm The Valuation Office Agency (VOA) has published Pete Wishart: To ask the Chancellor of the the indicative 30th percentile rates in each bedroom Exchequer what property has been recorded as (a) lost category for Broad Rental Market Areas (BRMA) in and (b) stolen from the Department in the last 12 England on its website: months; and what estimate has been made of the cost http://www.voa.gov.uk/LHADirect/LHA-emergency-budget- of the replacement of that property. [5962] news-2010.htm 185W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 186W

This information is based on data used to produce Welfare Tax Credits the June 2010 LHA rates. LHA rates are produced for BRMAs which do not equate to constituency areas. Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many households receive tax credits in Pregnant Women: Grants Makerfield constituency. [6196]

Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Chancellor of the Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer how many health in pregnancy grants were how many households receive tax credits in Stretford made in Makerfield constituency in 2009-10; [6194] and Urmston constituency. [5847]

Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Barbara Keeley: To ask the Chancellor of the how many health in pregnancy grants were made in Exchequer how many households in Worsley and Stretford and Urmston constituency in 2009-10; [5851] Eccles South constituency receive tax credits. [6079]

Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many health in pregnancy grants were Exchequer how many households in (a) Glasgow made in (a) Glasgow North and (b) the area covered North and (b) Ealing Central and Acton constituency by Ealing Central and Acton constituency in 2009-10; receive tax credits. [6184] [5996] Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Chancellor of the Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many households in (a) Slough, (b) Exchequer how many health in pregnancy grants were Salisbury and (c) Scarborough and Whitby made to people in (a) Slough, (b) Salisbury and (c) constituency are in receipt of tax credits. [6007] Scarborough and Whitby constituency in 2009-10. [6014] Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many households receive tax credits in Mr Gauke: Geographical analysis of the number of Houghton and Sunderland South constituency. [5895] people benefiting from the Health in Pregnancy grant has not previously been undertaken and therefore this Diana R. Johnson: To ask the Chancellor of the information is only available at disproportionate cost. Exchequer how many households in Kingston upon Hull North constituency are in receipt of tax credits. Revenue and Customs: Telephone Numbers [6523]

Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Gauke: The latest information on the number of Exchequer what arrangements are in place for the families with children benefiting from Child and Working payment of charges for calls to the 0845 numbers used Tax Credits, by each parliamentary constituency, local authority and region is available in the HMRC snapshot by HM Revenue and Customs. [5363] publication “Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics. Geographical Analyses. April 2010”. This can be found Mr Gauke: HMRC does not receive any revenue at: directly through the use of 0845 numbers. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- HMRC’s Contact Centre telephony is provided through apr2010.pdf a commercial arrangement called the Telephony Managed Service. This takes account of the in-payments HMRC’s Welfare Tax Credits: Motherwell telephony service provider receives from licensed operators carrying 0845 calls. The arrangement ensures that the Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Chancellor of the Telephony Managed Service is provided at the lowest Exchequer how many families in Motherwell and cost while remaining flexible enough to adapt to business Wishaw constituency in the income band (a) £10,000 and customer needs. to £20,000, (b) £21,000 to £30,000, (c) £31,000 to HMRC is aware that the cost of calling its 0845 £40,000, (d) £41,000 to £50,000, (e) £51,000 to helplines can be an issue for some of its customers. £60,000 and (f) £60,000 or more are in receipt of tax HMRC is in the process of carrying out an in depth credits. [6533] review of its telephone numbering strategy, looking at ways to reduce the costs to customers while balancing Mr Gauke: The information requested is shown in the the costs to HMRC and the performance of its Contact following table: Centre network. Motherwell and Wishaw constituency families in receipt of tax credits by income band VAT: Audio Recordings Household income Number

£10,000 to £20,000 2,360 Dr Huppert: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer £20,000 to £30,000 1,250 how much value added tax was paid on the sale of £30,000 to £40,000 1,490 audio books in the last 12 months for which figures are £40,000 to £50,000 880 available. [6244] £50,000+ 410

Mr Gauke: This information is not available. HM The income bands over £50,000 have been combined Revenue and Customs does not collect data on VAT because the numbers in the individual categories would raised from sales of this type of goods. be disclosive. 187W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 188W

These estimates are based on provisional information Proportion of volume1 of entries by pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 that are on families receiving tax credits as at April 2010. GCSEs in 2008/09 by school Further details about these data can be found in the School Name Percentage HMRC snapshot publication “Child and Working Tax Mossbourne Community Academy 68.3 Credits. Geographical Analysis, April 2010”. This is Burlington Danes Academy 79.9 available at: City of London Academy - Islington 74.6 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- Lambeth Academy 85.3 stats.htm Haberdashers’ Aske’s Hatcham 78.9 College Haberdashers’ Aske’s Knights 50.5 EDUCATION Academy Academies: Coventry St Matthew Academy 68.3 City of London Academy 79.4 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State (Southwark) for Education which schools in Coventry have Harris Academy at Peckham 59.8 Harris Academy Bermondsey 57.2 submitted an application for academy status. [3851] Harris Girls’ Academy East Dulwich 57.7 Mr Gibb [holding answer 23 June 2010]: No schools Walworth Academy 68.8 in Coventry have yet applied. St Michael and All Angels C of E 55.2 Academy Academies: GCSE Bacon’s College 96.7 Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Globe Academy 70.5 Education how many and what proportion of year 11 Ashcroft Technology Academy 64.8 academy school pupils was entered for (a) history Paddington Academy 53.3 GCSE, (b) geography GCSE, (c) a modern foreign Westminster Academy 53.2 language GCSE, (d) physics GCSE, (e) chemistry Pimlico Academy 82.9 GCSE, (f) biology GCSE, (g) science GCSE, (h) London Academy 66.9 GCSE English (1) language and (2) literature, (i) The Business Academy Bexley 58.6 mathematics GCSE, (j) OCR National level 2 in ICT Harris Academy Falconwood 42.9 and (k) diploma in digital applications in 2008-09. Capital City Academy 72.6 [2787] Harris Academy South Norwood 40.9 Harris City Academy Crystal Palace 85.0 Mr Gibb: The information requested is shown in the Oasis Academy - Coulsdon 81.6 following table. West London Academy 66.3 Greig City Academy 66.3 Number of pupils at Percentage of pupils Stockley Academy 63.2 the end of KS4 at the end of KS4 The Harefield Academy 55.6 entering for at least entering for at least Academies one full GCSE one full GCSE Harris Academy Merton 51.5 St Marks Church of England 73.2 (a) History 4,137 20.9 Academy (b) Geography 3,354 17.0 Walthamstow Academy 70.3 (c) Modern Foreign 5,160 26.1 Grace Academy Coventry 48.7 Language Shireland Collegiate Academy 52.0 (d) Physics 1,657 8.4 George Salter Collegiate Academy 34.4 (e) Chemistry 1,686 8.5 Q3 Academy 77.9 (f) Biology 1,858 9.4 RSA Academy 45.0 (g) Core Science 12,693 64.2 Grace Academy Solihull 73.0 (h)1 English Literature 12,780 64.7 CTC Kingshurst Academy 47.9 (h)2 English 19,159 96.3 Walsall Academy 61.4 (i) Mathematics 19,510 98.1 Shelfield Community Academy 37.7 (j) OCR National 2,315 11.7 The Academy of St Francis of Assisi 54.8 Level 2 in ICT North Liverpool Academy 32.2 (k) Diploma in Digital 272 1.4 Applications The Belvedere Academy 99.8 Notes: Essa Academy 67.7 1. (a) to (i) include full academic GCSEs or double awards where applicable. Manchester Academy 69.0 All other equivalent qualifications are not included. 2. (j) Includes OCR National Awards and Certificates in ICT. William Hulme’s Grammar School 95.0 3. (k) Includes Edexcel Level 1 and Level 2 Diplomas in Digital Applications. St Anne’s Academy 50.0 Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Salford City Academy 68.0 Education what proportion of key stage four Oasis Academy MediaCityUK 62.5 examination entries in each academy school in 2008-09 Stockport Academy 70.2 was for a GCSE, excluding applied GCSEs. [2909] New Charter Academy 52.8 The Barnsley Academy 33.0 Mr Gibb: The information requested is presented in Trinity Academy 48.9 the following table: Sheffield Park Academy 45.6 Proportion of volume1 of entries by pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 that are Sheffield Springs Academy 41.4 GCSEs in 2008/09 by school Dixons City Academy 65.9 School Name Percentage Bradford Academy 56.8 St Pauls Academy 80.6 David Young Community Academy 48.7 189W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 190W

Proportion of volume1 of entries by pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 that are Proportion of volume1 of entries by pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 that are GCSEs in 2008/09 by school GCSEs in 2008/09 by school School Name Percentage School Name Percentage

Excelsior Academy 46.3 England (all schools) 75.4 Academy 360 66.2 Note: The City Academy Bristol 56.2 1. Volume is the number of GCSEs that are equivalent to a qualification or set of qualifications - for example a GCSE double award contributes two to the Bristol Brunei Academy 58.1 overall volume while a short course contributes a half. Bristol Cathedral Choir School 94.2 Colston’s Girls’ School 99.5 Children in Care Merchants’ Academy 44.9 Oasis Academy Bristol 61.1 Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Oasis Academy Brightstowe 54.5 Education whether his proposals for a pupil premium John Cabot Academy 74.2 will include funding for looked-after children. [3478] Unity City Academy 41.6 The King’s Academy 67.6 Mr Gibb [holding answer 21 June 2010]: The Macmillan Academy 70.7 Government are committed to the introduction of a Archbishop Sentamu Academy 36.2 pupil premium for disadvantaged children, and we will Oasis Academy Immingham 41.5 bring forward our proposals in due course. Oasis Academy Wintringham 54.9 Children: Carers Havelock Academy 56.1 St Lawrence Academy 60.2 Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Barnfield West Academy Luton 34.9 Education what recent research his Department has Barnfield South Academy Luton 64.5 commissioned on the number of young carers. [2447] Landau Forte College 71.5 St Aidans Church of England 59.7 Tim Loughton: The Department has not recently Academy commissioned any new research on the number of young Oasis Academy Lord’s Hill 57.8 carers in England. Oasis Academy Mayfield 75.7 Swindon Academy 81.7 I attended the Young Carers Festival which took John Madejski Academy 45.9 place between 25-27 June; an event attended by around The Langley Academy 71.4 1,400 young carers. This gave me an opportunity to Thomas Deacon Academy 53.8 hear young carers views from around the country. New Rickstones Academy 76.6 Education: Finance Greensward Academy 53.4 Maltings Academy 68.1 Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for The Gateway Academy 46.2 Education how much funding per pupil his Hereford Academy 34.2 Department has allocated to Kirklees local education Steiner Academy Hereford 100.0 authority in each of the last five years; and if he will The Marlowe Academy 37.4 make a statement. [3327] Folkestone Academy 53.2 Marsh Academy 50.5 Mr Gibb: Since 2006-07, the Dedicated Schools Grant The Leigh Technology Academy 39.6 (DSG) is the main source of school funding. Spires Academy 37.1 Per pupil unit of funding figures for 2005-06 to New Line Learning Academy 44.6 2009-10 for Kirklees local authority are provided in the Cornwallis Academy 53.2 following table. The figures in the table are for all Longfield Academy 80.5 funded pupils aged three to 19 and are in real terms: Accrington Academy 53.7 Real terms funding per pupil, DSG plus grants, pupils aged three to 19, Darwen Aldridge Community 61.7 Academy Kirklees local authority Samworth Church Academy 65.7 £ Djanogly City Academy Nottingham 42.4 2005-06 (Baseline) 4,250 Madeley Academy 46.8 2006-07 4,380 Abraham Darby 58.7 2007-08 4,550 Richard Rose Morton Academy 56.2 2008-09 4,650 Richard Rose Central Academy 75.5 2009-10 4,800 West Lakes Academy 75.3 Notes: Priory Witham Academy 27.5 1. This covers funding through the Dedicated Schools Grant, School Priory City of Lincoln Academy 49.9 Standards Grant, School Standards Grant (Personalisation) and Standards Fund as well as funding from the Learning and Skills Council; it Priory Academy LSST 59.4 excludes grants which are not allocated at LA level. Trent Valley Academy 56.2 2. Price Base: Real terms at 2008-09 prices, based on GDP deflators as The Open Academy 70.4 at 31 March 2010. Northampton Academy 68.4 3. These figures are for all funded pupils aged three to 19. 4. Figures have been rounded to the nearest £10. Corby Business Academy 46.6 Brooke Weston Academy 61.2 Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for North Oxfordshire Academy 36.5 Education what his policy is on the future of the (a) Oxford Academy 70.9 Ethnic Minority Achievement Grant and (b) Traveller Midhurst Rother College 75.3 Education Funding Scheme. [3465] 191W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 192W

Mr Gibb: The Government are committed to ensuring Mr Gibb: The consultation on the Dedicated Schools a fair funding system which allows all pupils to fulfil Grant was the result of the review of school funding their potential and invests in measures that most improve started by the previous Government. It was launched in the attainment of disadvantaged pupils. The total Ethnic March and was still running at the time of the election. Minority Achievement Grant (EMAG) allocated for It ended on 7 June and we expect to publish a report on 2010-11 is £204 million. Decisions on schools funding the responses shortly. from 2011-12 onwards will be made at the spending We are considering the responses to this exercise as a review in the autumn. part of developing our own consultation on school There is no Traveller Education Funding scheme. funding which will be launched in the summer. Traveller Education Support Services are funded by local authorities. Future funding for those services will GCSE: Leicester be based on each local authority’s assessment of its local needs and priorities. Liz Kendall: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what proportion of pupils gained five GCSEs at grades A* to C in each school in Leicester Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for West constituency in each of the last five years. [3563] Education when his Department plans to publish a response to the recent consultation on the dedicated Mr Gibb: The information required is given in the schools grant. [3466] following table:

Percentage of pupils achieving five or more grades A*-C at GCSE including equivalents in selected years Secondary schools in Leicester West constituency 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

Babington Community Technology College 52 44 49 33 56 Beaumont Leys School 38 46 42 52 59o English Martyrs Catholic School 51 57 58 60 81 Fullhurst Community College 27 29 26 35 40o New College Leicester 10 27 29 39 49o Riverside Community College 31 30 33 32 47o Ellesmere College1 000 0 0 West Gate School2 ——3NE 4< 4< 1 Ellesmere College is a Specialist Sports College for students with general learning difficulties. 2 West Gate School is a Specialist School for Cognition and Learning. 3 “NE” indicates that the school did not enter any pupils for GCSE examinations. 4 “<” indicates that GCSE results have been suppressed as fewer than 10 pupils sat exams. Source: Achievement and Attainment Tables

Home Education receive a real terms increase in per pupil funding in each year of the next comprehensive spending review Diana R. Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for period. [5949] Education what steps he plans to take in response to Ofsted’s recommendations in its recent report on local Mr Gibb [holding answer 5 July 2010]: Decisions authorities and home education. [3807] about levels of school funding from 2011 are subject to the spending review announced by the Chancellor of Mr Gibb: We have noted Ofsted’s findings and the Exchequer. recommendations. We will consider whether changes need to be made to the existing arrangements, given the Schools: Crimes of Violence strong views expressed by both home educators and local authorities. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many incidents of violence towards Pupils: Disadvantaged staff in schools or colleges (a) were and (b) were not reported to the police in the latest period for which Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State figures are available; and how many such cases resulted for Education what plans he has to increase support for in prosecutions in that period. [3095] low income families in the education system. [3423] Mr Gibb: The Department does not collect this Mr Gibb [holding answer 21 June 2010]: The information. Government are already committed to the introduction of a pupil premium for disadvantaged children, and we Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for will bring forward our proposals in due course. Education what guidance his Department provides to schools and colleges on reporting to police attacks on Schools: Bury staff. [3096]

Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The Department has provided no guidance Education if he will ensure that schools in Bury will to schools on when to report such attacks to the police. 193W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 194W

Schools: Finance Mr Gibb: I will be considering Diplomas as part of our work to improve the quality of vocational education, Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for as set out in the Coalition Agreement. Education what the process is for the funding of Teachers: Training maintained preparatory schools in England; and what role local education authorities have in that process. Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for [3092] Education if he will bring forward proposals for a Mr Gibb: Local authorities are responsible for funding minimum-funded annual entitlement for teachers’ maintained schools in their area. They do this through professional development before assessing the merits of a local formula which is developed in consultation with a teachers’ licensing scheme. [1956] their Schools Forum. Local authority funding of schools Mr Gibb: There are provisions within the existing is supported through central Government grants, in School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions Document which particular the Dedicated Schools Grant. provide for teachers to be able to access professional Schools: Standards development. We are currently undertaking a review of all our Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for policies and as soon as we are able to provide more Education which local authorities did not undertake information, we will, of course, make a formal school organisation plans for each year following the announcement. However, we have no plans to introduce removal of the requirement to do so in 2004; and if he licensing for teachers. will make a statement. [3349]

Mr Gibb: The Department does not hold this HOME DEPARTMENT information. Andrei Lugovoi Secondary Education: Admissions Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department whether the Government has issued Education how many and what proportion of pupils in an arrest warrant through Interpol for Andrei Lugovoi. the Kirklees local authority area were not offered a [6484] place at their (a) first, (b) second and (c) third choice of secondary school in each of the last five years; and if The Attorney-General: I have been asked to reply. he will make a statement. [2503] There is still an arrest warrant outstanding for Andrey Lugovoi in the United Kingdom where he remains Mr Gibb: We do not collect the data in the format wanted for an allegation of murder. An initial extradition that is requested and have only collected secondary request made to the Russian authorities was refused on preference data since 2008. the basis that their constitution does not permit the However, the information we have available is shown extradition of their own nationals. In accordance with in the following table. normal practice, we can neither confirm nor deny whether an arrest warrant for Andrey Lugovoi has been transmitted Secondary schools applications and offers2008 to 2010—Kirklees local authority through Interpol. Parents whose first Parents whose top 3 preference was not preferences were not Animals: Experiments offered offered

2008 (Percentage) and 19.8 5.8 Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of children 869 255 the Home Department what steps her Department is taking to ensure compliance with the policy on

2009 (Percentage) and 18.1 5.2 replacement, reduction and refinement in relation to [5505] Number of children 800 230 the use of animals in military research. Lynne Featherstone: We do not grant licences under 2010 (Percentage) and 17.3 3.8 the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 for the Number of children 712 156 development or testing of offensive weapons, but will consider applications to use animals to evaluate potential The full statistical reports for secondary school counter-measures. applications and offers, 2008 to 2010 are available at: We have a legal and administrative framework that http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STA/t000791/ index.shtml ensures that animal experimentation is only permitted when there is no alternative research technique and the http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000833/ index.shtml expected benefits outweigh any possible adverse effects to the animals. All of the animal studies undertaken by http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000914/ index.shtml the Ministry of Defence are regulated by the 1986 Act and subject to inspection by the Animals Scientific Specialised Diplomas Procedures Inspectorate. The Defence Science and Technology Laboratory John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for (Dstl) has a long running programme to embed the Education what his plans are for the future of the principles of the 3R’s into its research programme and, vocational diploma; and if he will make a statement. wherever possible, investigate the opportunities to develop [3433] and evaluate alternatives to the use of animals. 195W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 196W

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2010, Official Report, columns 351-52W, on the UK Home Department how many animals were used in the Border Agency’s War Crimes Unit, how many people safety testing of shellfish in (a) 2008 and (b) 2009. refused asylum, leave to remain or citizenship on [5534] suspicion of war crimes have been removed from the UK in each year since 2004. [4824] Lynne Featherstone: I refer the hon. Member to the answer provided to the hon. Member for Portsmouth Damian Green: UKBA does not hold information on South (Mr Hancock) on 27 January 2010, Official Report, the number of people removed because of suspected column 912W. involvement in war crimes. Removal for suspicion of EU Directive 91/492/EEC, and Commission Decision involvement in war crimes is not recorded separately. 2002/225/EC, specify the shellfish types, toxin classes, and test methods used. Child Exploitation and Online Protection Agency However, with respect to the animal numbers used, the information requested is not available, in line with the Code of Practice for Official Statistics (implementing Mr Alan Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Statistics and Registration Act 2007) and the National the Home Department whether she plans to bring Statistician’s guidance ‘Confidentiality of Official Statistics’. forward legislation to make the Child Exploitation and Providing the information requested would breach statistical Online Protection Agency a non-departmental public confidentiality relating to individual establishments and body. [5496] individual licensees. James Brokenshire: We are aware of the previous Additionally, release of data relating to 2009 ahead Government’s decision to turn CEOP into a non- of the annual statistical publication is not allowed under departmental public body. We are currently considering the Code of Practice for Official Statistics. what action may be appropriate. The annual publication “Statistics of Scientific procedures on Living Animals 2009” will be published on 28 July 2010, and will be available on the Department’s website Departmental Human Resources at: http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/scientific1.html Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the Anti-Semitism Home Department how much her Department has spent on human resources in each year since 1997. [5108] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many anti-Semitic incidents Nick Herbert: Spend for the Home Office Headquarters (a) were recorded in England and Wales in (i) 2008 by its human resources directorate each financial year and (ii) 2009 and (b) have been recorded in 2010 to since 2004-05 is shown in the attached table. This includes date; and if she will make a statement. [5684] pay, pensions and other services which we provide to the Home Office and its agencies. Nick Herbert: The information requested is not collected centrally in the recorded crime statistics. The Department does not hold the requested information for the financial years 1997-98 to 2003-04 as general The recorded crime statistics only hold data for racially and subsidiary ledgers produced for the purpose of or religiously aggravated offences as defined by law. preparing certified financial statements are not retained after Specific details relating to the victim or alleged offender a period of six years, in line with NAO requirements. are not collected. HR costs for the Home Department Asylum: Domestic Violence £ thousand

2004-05 30,612 Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 30,270 the Home Department when she expects to make a 2006-07 26,806 decision on whether the exemption of the exclusion of 2007-08 23,468 women asylum seekers who have experienced domestic violence from the no recourse to public funds rule will 2008-09 21,420 2009-10 20,192 be extended beyond August 2010. [5356] Note: Figures to 2007-08 include provision of services to National Offender Damian Green: A Home Office pilot project for victims Management Service and Office of Criminal Justice Reform which of domestic violence with no recourse to public funds transferred to the Ministry of Justice in 2007-08. commenced on 30 November 2009 and is due to run until the end of August 2010. It is being monitored on a monthly basis with a full evaluation taking place following Departmental Manpower completion of the pilot. This will assist in informing our next steps. Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many (a) front line and (b) British Nationality: War Crimes other staff were employed by (i) her Department and (ii) each of its agencies in the latest year for which Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for the figures are available; and what her most recent estimate Home Department with reference to the answer to the is of the annual cost to the public purse of employing hon. Member for Preseli, Pembrokeshire of 24 March staff of each type at each of those bodies. [539] 197W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 198W

Nick Herbert: There is no standard, commonly front line employee full-time equivalent for 2008/09 in agreed definition of front line staff. For the purposes table one is calculated on that basis. of this question we have taken it to mean staff The average staff pay cost per full-time equivalent working in operational business areas including ports, in 2009/10 was £33,130 covering national pay, airports and passport offices. This is consistent with the earnings related national insurance contribution, definition applying in the context of the current recruitment superannuation and London weighting (excluding freeze. This definition of front line excludes staff carrying specific grade allowances and overtime). It is not possible to out other vital public services, for example, supporting provide separate costs for front line and other staff national security. The Home Office front line and non without incurring disproportionate cost.

Table 1: Home Office employee FTE, by front line and non front line categorisation, 2009/10 Front line3 Other4

IPS 3,106 892 CRB1 308 328 UKBA 19,175 2,922 HQ2 390 2,660 1 CRB excludes temporary staff. 2 Excludes Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary. 3 Front line equals those based in cost centres identified as activity public facing/effecting decisions directly supporting such actions, or serving a mixed function where roles cannot be separated. 4 Other refers to central or local corporate support. Notes: 1. Figures rounded to nearest whole number. 2. Includes permanent and temporary staff unless stated. 3. Agency workers, consultants and contingent labour are excluded unless stated. Source: Local Home Office HR data: there are discrepancies with other published statistics where definitions differ.

Departmental Mobile Phones handset, (ii) network provider, (iii) type of tariff and (iv) name of the supplier was in each such case. [4546] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 22 June Nick Herbert: The following table shows which Ministers 2010, Official Report, column 146W, on departmental in the Home Office have been issued with a (a) Blackberry mobile phones, which Ministers in her Department and (b) mobile telephone; and what the (i) purchase have been issued with a (a) BlackBerry and (b) mobile cost of the handset, (ii) network provider, (iii) type of telephone; and what the (i) purchase cost of the tariff and (iv) name of the supplier was in each case.

Purchase cost of the Network provider Type of tariff Name of the supplier handset (£)

Blackberry Home Secretary Vodafone Teamwork and Blackberry Vodafone 235 Lynne Featherstone Vodafone Teamwork and Blackberry Vodafone 235 Baroness Neville-Jones Vodafone Teamwork and Blackberry Vodafone 125 James Brokenshire Vodafone Teamwork and Blackberry Vodafone 235 Nick Herbert Vodafone Teamwork and Blackberry Vodafone 235 Damian Green Vodafone Teamwork and Blackberry Vodafone 235 Mobile phone Home Secretary Vodafone Teamwork Vodafone Nil Lynne Featherstone Vodafone Teamwork Vodafone Nil

Departmental NDPBs In some instances it has not been appropriate to provide a Head Office address. In the case of the Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the Serious and Organised Crime Agency, this is for security Home Department what the address is of the head reasons, as the Agency does not make its address public. office of each non-departmental public body for which In other instances, it is because the body in question is her Department is responsible. [5715] an Advisory Non-Departmental Public Body which Nick Herbert: I refer the hon. Member to the following does not require such a venue. In these instances, the table which details each of the Non-Departmental Public postal address is provided, and Secretariat functions Bodies sponsored by the Home Office, and their respective will be performed by the Home Office. Head Office Addresses.

Home Office Non-Departmental Public Bodies

Address

Independent Police Complaints Commission 90 High Holborn

London WC1V 6BH 199W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 200W

Home Office Non-Departmental Public Bodies Address

Independent Safeguarding Authority Aldermans Best Way Morton Palms Business Park Darlington DL1 4WP

National Police Improvement Agency 10 Victoria Street London SW1H 0NN

Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner 5th Floor Counting House 53 Tooley Street London SE1 2QN

Security Industry Authority Po Box 49768 London WC1V 6YW

Serious and Organised Crime Agency PO Box 8000 London SE11 5EN

Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs Secretariat Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs 3rd Floor South-West Quarter, Seacole Building 2 Marsham Street SW1P 4DF

Animal procedures Committee Secretariat Animal Procedures Committee 3rd Floor, South-West Quarter, Seacole Building 2 Marsham Street SW1P 4DF

Migration Advisory Committee 1st Floor Green Park House 29 Wellesley Road Croydon CRO 2AJ

National DNA Database Ethics Board c/o Home Office Forensic Science Regulation Unit, 3rd Floor, South-West Quarter, Seacole Building 2 Marsham Street SW1P 4DF

Police Advisory Board for England and Wales 6th Floor Kingsgate House 66-74 Victoria Street London SW1E 6SW

Police Negotiating Board 6th Floor Kingsgate House 66-74 Victoria Street London SW1E 6SW

Technical Advisory Board PO Box 38542 London SW1H 9YE

Investigating Powers Tribunal PO Box 33220 London SW1H 9ZQ

Office of the Surveillance Commissioners PO Box 29105 London SW1V 1ZU 201W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 202W

Home Office Non-Departmental Public Bodies Address

Police Arbitration Tribunal 6th Floor Kingsgate House 66-74 Victoria Street London SW1E 6SW

Police Discipline Appeals Tribunal1 — 1 These are administered by police forces directly.

Departmental Public Expenditure Deportation: Somalia

Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Department how much her Department spent on (a) the Home Department what her policy is on the advertising, (b) public relations, (c) consultants, (d) deportation of individuals from the UK to Somalia. ministerial transport and (e) entertainment in (i) 1997 [5426] and (ii) the last 12 months for which figures are available. [4507] Damian Green: All cases are considered on their individual merits and refugee status or some other form of leave is granted if appropriate. Unless they have been Nick Herbert: The figures requested are as follows. granted some form of leave, unsuccessful asylum seekers They do not include expenditure incurred by the no longer have a right to remain in the UK and we Department’s agencies and non-departmental public would expect them to return to their country of origin bodies. voluntarily. (a) In the last financial year, 2009-10, the Department We may enforce the return of those found not to be in spent £8,578,052 on advertising. The advertising figures need of international protection by the UK Border quoted are for net costs for advertising space on TV, Agency and the independent courts. We only enforce radio, press, cinema, outdoor and online channels, and the return of those we are satisfied are not in need of do not include costs for making the adverts or associated protection, and we do not seek to enforce returns unless fees. we are satisfied that it is safe to do so. There is no policy (b) In the last financial year, 2009-10, the Department to preclude enforced return to Somalia. spent £382,054 on public relations. Statistical details on returns and the latest operational (c) In the last financial year, 2009-10, the Department guidance relating to the treatment of asylum claims spent £73 million on consultancy. from Somalia can be found in the Library of the House The accounts for 2009-10 have not yet been closed and on the Home Office websites. and figures may be subject to amendment and to audit Domestic Violence: Immigrants by the National Audit Office (NAO). Consultancy services cover the provision to the Home Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Office of objective advice and assistance relating to Home Department how many women with no recourse strategy, structure, management, or operations in pursuit to public funds have taken shelter from domestic abuse of its purposes and objectives. The use of external in refugee accommodation since the Home Office pilot consultants provides the Department with specialist project started in December 2009. [4433] knowledge, skill, capacity and technical expertise that would not otherwise be available. James Brokenshire: A Home Office pilot project for For the financial year 2010-11 the Home Office has women with no recourse to public funds commenced in introduced stringent new constraints on engaging November 2009. consultants. We expect these constraints, in conjunction In the period to 31 May 2010, 251 women were with new procedures and policies now being introduced, accepted onto the pilot, with 194 going on to receive to produce a very substantial reduction in expenditure accommodation and support under the scheme. This is by the end of this financial year by comparison with the monitored on a monthly basis, with a full evaluation previous financial year. taking place following completion of the pilot. (d) In the last 12 months (June 2009—May 2010), Entry Clearances the Department spent £437,761 on ministerial transport. (e) Figures for hospitality are not held centrally and Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for the attempting to collate them would incur disproportionate Home Department how many fines were issued to cost. people who arrived in the UK without proper Figures for 1997 are not held centrally and attempting documentation in each year from 1997 to 2009; and to collate them would incur disproportionate cost. General how much was levied in such fines in that period. and subsidiary ledgers produced for the purpose of [5600] preparing certified financial statements are not retained after a period of seven years, in line with National Damian Green: Between 1997 and 2009, carrier liability Audit Office (NAO) requirements. The Department fines served on carriers totalled 53,163 individual charges, does not hold the requested information for 1997. resulting in a total of £106,326,000 levied in charges. 203W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 204W

Between 2002 and 2009 there were 12, 511 civil penalty Damian Green: The Coalition’s Programme for notices served with the value of £8,101, 291 in penalties Government included a commitment to prevent abuse received. of the student route and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has said that she will be reviewing Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the non-economic immigration routes and will be bringing Home Department whether the proposed cap on forward further proposals for parliamentary consideration. immigration will apply to visa applications made prior This will include detailed consideration of the student to 28 June 2010. [5829] routes; the Government intend to bring forward proposals on these routes before the end of 2010. Damian Green: On 28 June we announced that interim limits would be implemented before an annual limit on Leicestershire Constabulary: Finance economic migrants from outside the EU is introduced next April. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the The Immigration Rules for interim limits were laid on Home Department what her most recent estimate is of 28 June which come into effect 21 days later on 19 July. the likely change to the level of funding allocated by The interim limit will affect Tier one (General) migrants her Department to Leicestershire constabulary in the applying from outside the UK from 19 July. The next 12 months. [4636] Immigration Rules implementing the interim limit will not apply to Tier one (General) applications submitted Nick Herbert: As a result of the in-year reduction to before 19 July, even if the application is decided after core police funding in 2010-11, Leicestershire will see a that date. total reduction of £1.8 million. Specific reductions to The interim limit for Tier two (General) restricts the the core Home Office settlement are subject to number of Certificates of Sponsorship UK based employers parliamentary approval. However, even after this reduction can issue from 19 July. Tier two (General) visa applications has been made Leicestershire will still receive an increase made prior to 19 July will not be included in the interim of 1.4% in core Government funding over 2009-10. limit. Future funding will be determined by the Spending Review. Entry Clearances: Married People Passports: Lost Property Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the proposed cap on Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for the immigration will include those applying for spouse Home Department (1) what discussions she has had visas. [5828] with Interpol about sharing information on lost or stolen UK passports with private businesses; [5601] Damian Green: The proposed limit announced by the Home Secretary on 28 June applies to economic migration (2) what estimate has been made of the number of routes only—Tier one and Tier two of the Points-Based passports lost or stolen in each year from 1997 to 2009; System. We are consulting on whether the dependant and what information her Department provided to spouses of Tier one and Tier two migrants should be businesses seeking to check whether a passport had included in the limit. The limit will not include those been lost or stolen during that period. [5602] applying for other spouse visas, although we intend to review all other immigration routes in due course. Damian Green: The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) provides lost and stolen passport data to Interpol Entry Clearances: Overseas Students via the Serious and Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) on a daily basis, to assist with the international policing Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for the of borders. This arrangement has been in place and Home Department what recent representations she has meeting the requirements of the organisations concerned received from (a) hon. Members, (b) owners of since 2004. There have been no discussions with Interpol educational establishments that provide courses for regarding the sharing of information on lost and stolen overseas students and (c) others on the points-based passports with private businesses. However, since 2006 system used for determining the admission of overseas IPS has provided a Passport Validation Service (PVS) students to the UK. [5142] to a number of United Kingdom based accredited financial and legal services. The service allows these Damian Green: The Secretary of State for the Home accredited financial and legal services to check the Department has received recent representations on the validity of UK passports presented to them by customers points-based system used for determining the admission directly against IPS records. The accredited private of overseas students to the UK from 18 hon. Members sector organisations using the PVS service do so via a and one representative body. These raise concerns with call centre, providing the PVS with details of the passport the operation of the student visa system and implementation in their possession and PVS will confirm the validity of of changes following a recent review commissioned by the passport or otherwise. If the passport presented is the previous Prime Minister. shown on IPS records as lost or stolen the organisation is informed that the passport is invalid. Personal details Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for the or the reason for not being able to validate the details Home Department when she expects the review of the are not provided by PVS. points-based immigration system applied to those With regard to number of passports that have been seeking a visa for study in the UK to conclude; and if reported to IPS as lost or stolen between 1997 and 2009, she will make a statement. [5144] it is not possible to provide figures between 1997 and 205W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 206W

2003, as the current system to record details of lost, Police: Finance stolen and recovered passports was only introduced in December 2003. Information relating to lost, stolen and Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the recovered UK passports is therefore only available for Home Department what criteria will be used to the last six years (from 2004). determine reductions to police force budgets in The following table sets out the number of UK England and Wales. [4637] passports that have been recorded by IPS as lost, stolen Nick Herbert: The reduction in police funding of or recovered since 2004. The category “Other” is used £135 million in 2010-11 will be made by reducing core by the IPS predominantly when a passport is declared Government funding by £125 million and counter terrorism damaged or destroyed. specific grants by £10 million. The £125 million in-year 2010-11 reduction to core funding has been allocated Number of Number of lost stolen fairly between forces, each of which will see a reduction Totals passports passports Other equivalent to 1.46% of its core Government funding. Future spending will be determined by the Spending 2004 275,040 212,745 50,737 11,558 Review. 2005 286,988 230,011 45,709 11,268 2006 290,996 237,879 41,830 11,287 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2007 303,572 251,751 41,393 10,428 Home Department by what mechanism the planned 2008 296,018 249,261 38,120 8,637 reduction of £135 million funding for police forces will 2009 272,963 232,852 32,276 7,835 be allocated between police forces in England and Wales. [4638] Police Community Support Officer: Redundancy Nick Herbert: The reduction in police funding of £135 million in 2010-11 will be made by reducing core Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government funding by £125 million and counter terrorism Home Department what estimate she has made of the specific grants by £10 million. redundancy costs of a police community support The £125 million reduction to core funding has been officer with (a) seven, (b) six, (c) five, (d) four, (e) allocated fairly between forces, each of which will see a three, (f) two and (g) up to one years of service whose reduction equivalent to 1.46% of its core Government services are no longer required. [6370] funding. I am confident that savings of less than 1% of expected Nick Herbert: No such estimates have been made. It spending in 2010-11 by police authorities can be made is an issue for each force to determine police staff whilst keeping the frontline of policing strong and redundancy costs. The redundancy terms are set out secure. under the Local Government Pension Scheme (and Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme for the Metropolitan Police: Retirement Police) and the associated compensation schemes. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what her policy is on raising the Police: Bureaucracy retirement age for police officers. [5641]

Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nick Herbert: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor Home Department what estimate she has made of the of the Exchequer has announced an Independent Public (a) cost and (b) length of time spent by police officers Service Pensions Commission to include police pensions, on administrative tasks in each year since 1997. [4383] and as part of the Coalition Programme there will also be a full review of the remuneration and conditions of Nick Herbert: According to the Front Line Policing service for police officers and staff. Measure commissioned by the last Government, police Pre-charge Detention officers spent 21.7% of their time on paperwork in 2007-08, the last year for which figures were available. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home The new Government are clear that the police should Department how many people have been held for 28 focus on police work not paperwork, and the Home days in pre-charge detention since 2005. [4861] Office is now engaged in a programme of action to deliver this commitment. Nick Herbert: The Home Office collates statistics on the number of people who have been held for 28 days in Police: Conditions of Employment pre-charge detention since 2005. These details are included in a Bulletin published for the first time on 13 May 2009 (Statistics on Terrorism Arrests and Outcomes Great Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Britain 11 September 2001 to 31 March 2008). Home Department what plans she has to review the remuneration and conditions of service for police The details for 2010 are not yet available. The first officers; and if she will make a statement. [5750] edition of the Bulletin is available at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb0409.pdf Nick Herbert: The Government have announced a The second issue of the Bulletin was published on full review of the remuneration and conditions of service 26 November 2009 and is available via the following of police officers and staff. We will provide information link: about the review, including timing, shortly. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1809.pdf 207W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 208W

The third issue of the Bulletin was issued on 26 February Nick Herbert: The Home Office does not hold this 2010 and is available via the following link: information http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0410.pdf It is not possible to estimate costs in relation to The fourth issue of the Bulletin was issued on 10 June specific individuals arising from logging and analysing 2010 and is available via the following link: data that is recorded by the police when attending public events. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1010.pdf Terrorism: Convictions Rape: Convictions Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department what the conviction rate in criminal cases Home Department in how many cases involving rape involving any charges on terrorist offences was in each the defendant was convicted following the introduction year from 2006 to 2010. [5006] of DNA evidence by the prosecution in each of the last three years. [5035] Nick Herbert: The data requested for (a) 2006, (b) 2007, (c) 2008, and (d) 2009 is available in the statistical James Brokenshire: Data on the number of convictions bulletin series bulletin Statistics on Terrorism obtained in which DNA match evidence from the National Arrests and Outcomes Great Britain the links to which DNA Database (NDNAD) was a contributory factor are as follows: are not collected centrally. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb0409.pdf However, data are available on the number of detections http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1809.pdf in which a DNA match was available. The following http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0410.pdf table shows the number of rapes detected in which a http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1010.pdf match on the NDNAD was available for each of the last Data from 2010 is not yet available. three years for which data are available, for police forces in England and Wales. The figures do not include: INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Additional detections where an offender admits further offences following a detection for which a DNA match was available; or Afghanistan: Females Crimes detected as a result of one-off speculative searches of the NDNAD or from comparing DNA profiles in a forensic laboratory. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what proportion of aid These procedures are used mainly in the investigation allocated by his Department to groups in Afghanistan of serious crimes such as murder and rape. Therefore seeking to improve the quality of life, education, health the figures provided in the table under-represent the and safety of women is paid into bank accounts in the overall contribution of DNA matches to the detection name of Afghan males. [5077] of rape crimes. It is also important to note that detections and any Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International subsequent convictions are obtained through integrated Development (DFID) requests and receives regular criminal investigation, based on a range of evidence monitoring reports on all our programmes from our types and not through DNA evidence alone. implementing partners. However the information requested The source of the figures provided is the forensic cannot be provided without incurring disproportionate performance data, which are collected by the Home costs. Office from police forces. The figures for 2009-10 are I have recently initiated a review of the Department not yet available. for International Development (DFID) aid programmes The data provided are management information and to ensure they are as effective as possible and bring real have not been formally assessed for compliance with the benefit to the world’s poor. Our work in Afghanistan Code of Practice for Official Statistics. will be reviewed as part of this process. The Government are committed to addressing gender Number of rapes detected in which a DNA match was available, England and Wales, 2006-09 issues in developing countries and will place women at Number the centre of our work on international development. We are also fully committed to ensuring full transparency 2006-07 195 of UK aid and have launched the Aid Transparency 2007-08 184 Guarantee, which will provide opportunities for those 2008-09 168 directly affected by our projects to provide feedback on the performance of projects. I have also announced a new independent aid watchdog to gather evidence about Surveillance: Finance the effectiveness of DFID’s programmes.

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department what the cost to the public purse International Development what steps he is taking to has been of surveillance of Linda and John Catt, ensure that aid committed by his Department to identifying separately the cost of (a) logging and (b) improve the quality of life, education, health and safety analysing the surveillance data; and if she will make a of women reaches the women’s groups to which it has statement. [5353] been allocated. [5078] 209W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 210W

Mr Andrew Mitchell: I have recently initiated a review Developing Countries: Maternity Services of the Department for International Development (DFID) aid programmes to ensure they are as effective as possible Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for and bring real benefit to the world’s poor. International Development (1) what steps he plans to The Government are committed to addressing gender take at the forthcoming session of the United Nations issues in developing countries and will place women at General Assembly towards reducing maternal the centre of our work on international development. mortality in developing countries; [5044] We are also fully committed to ensuring full transparency (2) what steps his Department is taking to reduce of UK aid and have launched the Aid Transparency levels of maternal mortality in developing countries. Guarantee, which will provide opportunities for those directly affected by our projects to provide feedback on [5045] the performance of projects. I have also announced a new independent aid watchdog to gather evidence about Mr Andrew Mitchell: Maternal health is a major the effectiveness of DFID’s programmes. priority for the UK Government and an area which the Prime Minister has personally championed. We want to Developing Countries: Forests improve sexual and reproductive health and rights, including access to modern family planning methods and promoting Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for women’s choice in the developing world. The recent G8 International Development how much the Government summit has delivered a significant step change in efforts plans to contribute to the international fund for to improve maternal, newborn and child health. The maintaining levels of forestation; and whether Muskoka Initiative will prevent 1.3 million under five expenditure will be in addition to already planned child deaths, 64,000 maternal deaths and enable an expenditure. [5069] additional 12 million women to have access to modern family planning over the period 2010-15. Mr Andrew Mitchell: There are a number of international The UN millennium development goal (MDG) summit funds that seek to assist developing countries in their in September, with the aim of delivering the UN Secretary- efforts to reduce deforestation. The UK is contributing General’s joint action plan to improve the health of £15 million to the Forest Carbon Partnership Forum women and children, will be the next significant milestone. (FCPF), £100 million to the Forest Investment programme The UK Government remains determined to use such (FIP), and £50 million to the Congo Basin Forest Fund. events to continue to drive progress and ensure that the We are reviewing all our aid, including aid channelled UN delivers improved health outcomes for women and through multilateral agencies to ensure it is as effective children. as possible and brings real benefit to the world’s poor. We will consider further contributions to international Developing Countries: Overseas Aid brings real benefit to the world’s poor. We will consider further contributions to international funds that seek to assist developing countries in their efforts to reduce Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for deforestation as part of this review. International Development what his Department’s I have recently reaffirmed the UK’s commitment to policy is on provision of aid to countries where torture Fast Start finance, including £300 million for forestry is used. [6291] between 2010 and 2012. Mr Andrew Mitchell: As stated in “The Coalition: Developing Countries: Health Services our programme for government”, the Government will never condone the use of torture. In taking decisions on Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for the provision of aid the Department for International International Development what support the Centre Development (DFID) takes into consideration the country for Progressive Health Financing (a) has provided to governments commitment to human rights, as well as date and (b) plans to provide in the next six months to their commitment to poverty reduction, accountability the six developing countries that pledged to remove and combating corruption, and the level of development health user fees at the Healthy Women, Healthy and humanitarian needs in the country. Children event held in the meeting of the UN General I have recently initiated a review of the DFID bilateral Assembly in September 2009. [5046] aid programme to ensure that we target UK aid where it is needed most and will most and will make the most Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International significant impact on poverty reduction. The review will Development has provided specific technical support consider which countries should receive British aid, on pro-poor health financing to two of the countries how much they should receive and which countries that made announcements in September 2009 (Liberia should stop receiving British aid. and Sierra Leone). In Nepal, Malawi, Ghana and Burundi, we have continued our support to the health sector, including support to removing financial barriers for the International Assistance: Poverty and Hunger poorest. I have recently initiated a review of DFID’s aid Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for programmes to determine how we can achieve better International Development whether his Department value for money for the taxpayer and accelerate progress has made a recent assessment of the effectiveness of aid towards the millennium development goals. The way in delivery models used by the United Nations to make which we will take forward our support for health progress towards the millennium development goals to financing will be determined as part of this review. eradicate extreme poverty and hunger. [5102] 211W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 212W

Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions Development is currently undertaking a review of our has 576 staff who are employed outside London who funding to multilateral organisations. The review will earn less than £7.14 per hour. include an assessment of the effectiveness of the United £7.14 equates to a full time equivalent salary of Nations agencies we support and their potential to £13,737 and is therefore below the threshold of the pay make progress towards the millennium development freeze. goals. Overseas Aid Disability Living Allowance: Children

Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much aid his Work and Pensions whether he plans to include Department provided to each country (a) in total and disability living allowance payments to children in his (b) per head of population of the recipient country in proposed review of disability living allowance the latest year for which information is available; and payments. [6418] what the percentage change in the amount of aid provided to each such country was between 1999 and Maria Miller: The Chancellor announced in his that year. [5029] Emergency Budget that the Government will reform disability living allowance to ensure support is targeted Mr Andrew Mitchell: Figures for UK Official on those with the highest needs and will consider carefully Development Assistance to each recipient country and how reforms will impact on children. the relevant population in each year from 1999 to 2008 are published on the website of the Development Assistance Employment and Support Allowance Committee of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/50/17/5037721.htm and Pensions what assessment he has made of the level of financial support needed to ensure that those living on employment and support allowance do not live in WORK AND PENSIONS poverty. [5251] Departmental Consultants Chris Grayling: Work is the best and most sustainable route out of poverty. The aim of the new work programme Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Work is to support individuals to maximise employment and Pensions what budget his Department has opportunities. For those unable to work, the benefit allocated for consultancy in 2010-11. [5929] system currently targets extra resources on those who are in greatest disadvantage. The system will continue Chris Grayling: The requested information is not to provide additional support for those in need, but in available as the Department for Work and Pensions is future the Government will work to ensure the benefit still considering the impacts of the emergency Budget system also helps to tackle the root causes of poverty, on its spending plans. The Department expects to make reducing welfare dependency and promoting social justice. savings of around £20 million on consultancy in 2010-11 The main elements of the employment and support to contribute to its overall £535 million efficiency challenge. allowance (ESA) are the personal allowances, the work- The latest outturn data on consultancy spending were related activity or support components and flat rate for 2008-09, when the Department spent £95.2 million premiums for groups recognised as having other special on IT and management consultancy. needs e.g. carers, severely disabled people and people Departmental Official Cars aged over 60. This structure enables the Government to focus help most effectively on those groups who have the greatest needs. In particular, people who are placed Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and in the support group qualify for the enhanced disability Pensions which Ministers in his Department have used premium automatically. an allocated Ministerial car to travel between the Department and the House of Commons on each day The benefit rates do not directly reflect, nor are they since 21 May 2010. [5558] made up of, specific items of household and other expenditure. Instead the rates are intended to cover Chris Grayling: No records of such journeys are kept. overall household expenditure and normal day to day DWP Ministers use allocated ministerial cars, particularly living expenses taken as a whole. Benefit rates are when carrying restricted, confidential and private papers reviewed annually and a number of factors are taken which relate to Government and parliamentary business. into account during the review, the most important of DWP Ministers also routinely walk to the House of which is the level of inflation. We have decided that in Commons from the Department. future ESA will be increased using the Consumer Price Index which we believe is the most suitable measure of Departmental Pay inflation. In many cases the basic rate of ESA is just one Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work element of the total package of support that a person and Pensions how many staff his Department employs or household receives. Additional support may be available outside London at a wage of less than £7.14 per hour. through (e.g.) housing benefit, council tax benefit, child [5244] benefit, child tax credit and disability living allowance. 213W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 214W

Floors: Safety In Great Britain the latest official statistics, covering the period from October 2009 to January 2010, show Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Work that 8,660 people were recorded as starting jobs funded and Pensions what recent assessment he has made of by the Future Jobs Fund. the effectiveness of the (a) methodology used by the At up to £6,500 per person the FJF is five times more Health and Safety Executive (HSE) for measuring the expensive than some other elements of the YoungPersons slip potential of floors and (b) the HSE’s microsurface Guarantee. Moreover the Future Jobs Fund creates roughness meter; what research has been (i) temporary, short term posts and the grants do not commissioned and (ii) evaluated on the effectiveness of include any incentives to move people into permanent the HSE’s microsurface roughness meter; if he will jobs. publish such research; and if he will make a statement The Government are committed to supporting young on the HSE’s policy on the slip potential of floors. people. The 50,000 new apprenticeships and the forthcoming [5173] Work Programme will help move young people into sustainable employment. Chris Grayling: The Department of Work and Pensions has made no assessment of the effectiveness of the Homelessness methodology used by HSE for measuring the slip potential of floors and its micro surface roughness meter. HSE’s approach to this topic has been developed by the UK Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Health and Safety Laboratory and is supported by the and Pensions how many people Jobcentre Plus independent UK Slip Resistance Group consisting of recorded as homeless in the last five years; and how manufacturers, suppliers and consultants. Independent many such people Jobcentre Plus has helped to place in peer reviewed research material also supports the approach employment. [5128] taken by HSE and HSL. Chris Grayling: The information requested is not HSE does not manufacture a micro surface roughness available. meter. It does use a commercially available micro surface roughness meter to assess the slipperiness of flooring in water contaminated conditions as part of its regulatory Housing Benefit functions. HSL have undertaken a variety of research into the Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work causes of slips at work and how they can be managed and Pensions pursuant to his contribution of 28 June and this research is published on the HSE website: 2010, Official Report, column 609, what estimate he has made of the number of elderly people in receipt of http://www.hse.gov.uk/slips/research.htm housing benefit who are in properties that are deemed HSE has also published a technical guidance note on to be too large for their needs. [5521] assessing the slip resistance of flooring which draws on the outputs from published HSL research: Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/web/slips01.pdf Work and Pensions how many of those in receipt of housing benefit occupy accommodation with more Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Work bedrooms than residents. [6502] and Pensions what representations he has received on the Health and Safety Executive’s (a) policy on Steve Webb: The information is not available. The slipping and (b) methodology for measuring the risk Department for Work and Pensions does not collect of different surfaces giving rise to slipping. [5175] information on dwelling size for all housing benefit recipients. Chris Grayling: HSE has received correspondence However, the English Housing Survey in 2008-09 from one commercial supplier of slip assessment equipment showed that 430,000 (11.2%) of all social rented households about its policy on slipping and its methodology for and 494,000 (16.1%) of all private rented households in measuring the risk of different surfaces giving rise to England were under-occupied as measured by the bedroom slipping. standard. The ″bedroom standard″ is essentially the difference Future Jobs Fund between the number of bedrooms needed to avoid undesirable sharing (given the number and ages of Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for household members and their relationships to each Work and Pensions how many jobs created (a) in other) and the number of bedrooms actually available Great Yarmouth constituency, (b) in the East of to the household. England and (c) nationally have been attributable to Source: Figures on under-occupation are taken from Table 6: the Future Jobs Fund since its inception. [5935] Overcrowding and Under-occupation by Tenure’ from the English Housing Survey, 2008-09. Chris Grayling: The information requested on the Great Yarmouth constituency area is not available. Housing Benefit: Liverpool In the East of England area the latest official statistics, covering the period from October 2009 to January 2010, Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for show that 390 people were recorded as starting jobs Work and Pensions how many of those resident in funded by the Future Jobs Fund. Liverpool are in receipt of housing benefit. [6414] 215W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 216W

Steve Webb: At March 2010 there were 62,030 housing Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 115 lone benefit claimants in the Liverpool local authority area. parents claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in Houghton Notes: and Sunderland South. 1. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. Note: 2. Data is rounded to the nearest 10. The figure has been rounded to the nearest 5. 3. March 2010 represents the latest data held Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Single Housing Benefit Extract 100% individual level number of lone parents in (a) Slough, (b) Salisbury data (SHBE). and (c) Scarborough and Whitby constituency in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance. [6011] Incapacity Benefit Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 155 lone parents claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in Slough, 50 in Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Salisbury, and 65 in Scarborough and Whitby. Work and Pensions what research his Department has Note: undertaken on the number of people receiving incapacity benefit who are receiving it contrary to the The figures have been rounded to the nearest 5. benefit rules; what evidence was used to decide on the Government’s target to reduce the number of Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for incapacity benefit claimants by one-fifth; and if he will Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made make a statement. [5354] of the number of lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance in Makerfield constituency. [6049] Chris Grayling: Information on the number of people who are receiving Incapacity Benefit contrary to the Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 85 lone benefit rules is unavailable. However, the Department parents claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in Makerfield. does provide regular estimates of the amount of benefit The figure has been rounded to the nearest five. overpaid and underpaid as a result of fraud, official error and customer error. The latest statistics cover the Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for period October 2008 to September 2009 and estimated Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the for that period a total of 3.3% (£210 million) of Incapacity number of lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s Benefit was paid out incorrectly. A full breakdown of allowance in Worsley and Eccles South constituency. the results can be found in the Department’s publication [6091] ‘Fraud and Error in the Benefit System: October 2008 to September 2009’, copies of which are available in the Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 140 lone Library. parents claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in Worsley and The Government have not set a target to reduce the Eccles South. number of incapacity benefit claimants by one-fifth. The figure has been rounded to the nearest five. However, we believe the current system is broken and in need of radical reform. We will reassess everyone on Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for incapacity benefits to see if they are fit for work. Those Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the who are capable of work will be moved onto Jobseeker’s number of lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s Allowance. People who need more support while they allowance in (a) Glasgow North and (b) Ealing prepare for work will get that help on Employment and Central and Acton constituency. [6147] Support Allowance and will be placed either in the Support Group or the Work Related Activity Group. Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 75 lone parents claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Glasgow North, Jobseeker’s Allowance: Bishop Auckland and 140 in Ealing Central and Acton. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 5. Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made Diana R. Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for of the number of lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s Work and Pensions what his estimate is of the number allowance in (a) Bishop Auckland and (b) Blackpool of lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance in North and Cleveleys constituency. [5180] Kingston upon Hull North constituency. [6528]

Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 100 lone Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 240 lone parents claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Bishop Auckland, parents claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in Kingston and 110 in Blackpool North and Cleveleys. upon Hull North. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 5. The figure has been rounded to the nearest five.

Jobseeker’s Allowance: Lone Parents Lone Parents: Lancashire

Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions what his estimate is of the number and Pensions what his estimate is of the number of of lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance in lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance in West Houghton and Sunderland South constituency. [5901] Lancashire constituency. [5626] 217W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 218W

Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 120 lone Chris Grayling: All organisations delivering flexible parents claiming jobseeker’s allowance in West Lancashire. new deal, including those in Birmingham (Seetec and The figure has been rounded to the nearest five. FourstaR), have been given notice that their contracts will end on 28 June 2011. Current contracts are under review, but as yet no changes have been made. Mesothelioma: Deaths Pensions: Shipping Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many deaths from mesothelioma Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for there have been in the West Midlands in the last five Work and Pensions if he will take steps to ensure that years. [5422] UK seafarers working in international waters receive full pension provision. [6366] Chris Grayling: The total number of mesothelioma deaths where the last residence of the deceased was Steve Webb: UK seafarers who work on British vessels recorded as being within the Government office region pay class 1 national insurance on their earnings. Class 1 of the west midlands between 2003 and 2007 (the latest national insurance is also payable when UK seafarers year for which data are available) was 713. work on board certain foreign vessels. Therefore, UK seafarers working in international waters have the same Source: pension provision as other employees in the UK if they HSE, British Mesothelioma Register. are liable to pay class 1 national insurance contributions. Any UK seafarer who works on a foreign vessel in Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work circumstances where class 1 national insurance is not and Pensions how many deaths there have been from due, is usually able to pay voluntary class 2 or 3 national mesothelioma in (a) Bolton and (b) Greater insurance contributions to provide cover for basic state Manchester in the last 20 years. [5672] pension.

Chris Grayling: The total number of mesothelioma Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for deaths where the last residence of the deceased was Work and Pensions if he will bring forward measures recorded as being within (a) the local authority of to include UK seafarers working in international Bolton and (b) the Metropolitan County of Greater waters within the scope of the Pensions Act 2008. Manchester between 1988 and 2007* is set out in table 1. [6367] Table 1. Mesothelioma deaths 1988-20071 Area Deaths Steve Webb: The issue of whether to include seafarers in the employer duties in the Pensions Act 2008, which Bolton 132 are currently under review, is a complex one. We are Greater Manchester (Metropolitan 1,093 looking for the best way forward, and are talking with County) various interested parties including the trade unions, 1 2007 is the latest year for which data are available. the shipping industry and other Government Departments. Source: HSE, British Mesothelioma Register Pregnant Women: Grants

Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions how many deaths from mesothelioma Work and Pensions how many health in pregnancy there were in (a) the area of Penistone and grants were made in Houghton and Sunderland South Stockbridge constituency and (b) Yorkshire and the constituency in 2009-10. [5897] Humber in the last 12 months. [6396] Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. Chris Grayling: The information is a follows: Geographical analysis of the number of people benefiting (a) There are no data available at the constituency from the Health in Pregnancy grant has not previously level. been undertaken and therefore this information is only (b) The total number of mesothelioma deaths where available at disproportionate cost. the last residence of the deceased was recorded as being Retirement within the Government Office Region of Yorkshire and the Humber in 2007 (the latest year for which data are available) was 172. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what timetable he has set for Source: implementation of his proposal to phase out the HSE, British Mesothelioma Register default retirement age. [6065]

New Deal Schemes: Birmingham Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. We are committed to phasing out the default retirement Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for age. We will bring forward proposals shortly for consultation Work and Pensions which organisations which deliver on how we will quickly phase out the default retirement the Flexible New Deal programme in Birmingham have age from April 2011. been informed since the Government came into office Through the consultation, we want to ensure that we that their contracts are to be changed or terminated; make changes in a way that supports individuals and and what changes will be made to each contract. [5637] employers in adapting to the new situation. 219W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 220W

Social Security Benefits: Disability Disability living allowance, incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, and employment support allowance claimants in Bishop Auckland and Blackpool North and Cleveleys parliamentary constituencies, November 2009 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Parliamentary and Pensions when he plans to bring forward proposals constituency DLA IB/SDA ESA for financial support for those who are unable to work Blackpool North 7,120 4,700 870 due to illness or disability. [5247] and Cleveleys Notes: 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) Chris Grayling: The written statement laid by the from October 2008. Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Caseload for DLA show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, (Chris Grayling) on 29 June 2010 outlined the Government’s and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, approach to those who are unable to work due to for example if they are in hospital. disability and illness: 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. 5. IB/SDA ’claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who ‘The Government are committed to providing unconditional fail the contributions conditions but receive a national insurance credit, i.e. support for very sick and disabled people within that group. ’credit only cases’. Source: But there are people claiming incapacity benefits that can DWP Information Directorate 100% WPLS. work, and want to work, with our help they will be able to. In the autumn, starting in Burnley and Aberdeen, we will ask Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work incapacity benefit claimants to attend a work capability assessment. and Pensions how many people are in receipt of (a) The rest of the country will follow, with reviews taking place when the normal benefit review is due.’ disability living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit and (c) employment and support allowance in West Those who are capable of work will be moved onto Lancashire constituency. [5649] Jobseeker’s Allowance. People who need more support while they prepare for work will get that help on Employment and Support Allowance. Chris Grayling: The information is set out as follows: Disability living allowance, incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, and The Government have also announced that they will employment support allowance claimants in West Lancashire parliamentary reform Disability Living Allowance from 2013-14 to constituency: November 2009 ensure support is targeted on those with the highest Parliamentary needs. constituency DLA IB/SDA ESA West Lancashire 6,290 3,750 690 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Notes: and Pensions how many people in Wigan constituency 1. Incapacity Benefit was replaced by Employment Support Allowance (ESA) from October 2008. are in receipt of (a) incapacity benefit and (b) 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been employment and support allowance. [5249] applied. 3. Caseload for DLA show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for Chris Grayling: The information is set out in the example if they are in hospital. 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. following table: 5. IB/SDA ‘Claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who Incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, and employment support fail the contributions conditions but receive a National Insurance Credit, i.e. allowance claimants in Wigan parliamentary constituency, November 2009 ‘credits only cases’. Source: Parliamentary DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study constituency IB/SDA ESA Wigan 5,640 890 Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Notes: and Pensions how many people are in receipt of (a) 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) from October 2008. disability living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit and 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. (c) employment and support allowance in Stretford 3. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. and Urmston constituency. [5827] 4. IB/SDA ’claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who fail the contributions conditions but receive a national insurance credit, i.e. ’credits only cases’. Chris Grayling: The information is provided in the Source: DWP Information Directorate 100% WPLS. following table: Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for allowance, and disability living allowance, November 2009 Parliamentary Work and Pensions how many people in (a) Bishop constituency ESA IB/SDA DLA Auckland and (b) Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency receive (i) disability living allowance, (ii) Stretford and 820 4,490 6,210 incapacity benefit and (iii) employment and support Urmston [5277] Notes: allowance. 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) from October 2008. 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been Chris Grayling: The information is set out in the applied. following table: 3. Caseload for DLA shows the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, Disability living allowance, incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, and for example if they are in hospital. employment support allowance claimants in Bishop Auckland and Blackpool 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. North and Cleveleys parliamentary constituencies, November 2009 5. IB/SDA ’claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who Parliamentary fail the contributions conditions but receive a national insurance credit, i.e. constituency DLA IB/SDA ESA ’credits only cases’. Source: Bishop Auckland 6,940 4,920 960 DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. 221W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 222W

Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Notes: 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) Work and Pensions how many people are in receipt of from October 2008. (a) disability living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been and (c) employment and support allowance in applied. 3. Caseload for DLA show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, Houghton and Sunderland South constituency. [5903] and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. Chris Grayling: The information is provided in the 5. IB/SDA ‘Claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who following table. fail the contributions conditions but receive a national insurance credit, i.e. ‘credits only cases’. Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement Source: allowance, and disability living allowance: November 2009 DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study Houghton and Sunderland South parliamentary constituency

ESA 1,030 Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for IB/SDA 5,520 Work and Pensions how many people in (a) Slough, DLA 7,420 (b) Salisbury and (c) Scarborough and Whitby Notes: 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) constituency were in receipt of (i) disability living from October 2008. allowance, (ii) incapacity benefit and (iii) employment 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been applied. and support allowance on the most recent date for 3. Caseload for DLA show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and which figures are available. [6015] exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. 5. IB/SDA ‘Claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who Chris Grayling: The information is provided in the fail the contributions conditions but receive a national insurance credit, i.e. following table: ‘credits only cases’. Source: Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study allowance, and disability living allowance: November 2009 Parliamentary constituency ESA IB/SDA DLA

Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for Slough 880 3,770 4,310 Work and Pensions how many people in Worsley and Salisbury 400 2,220 3,090 Eccles South constituency receive a (a) disability living Scarborough and Whitby 710 3,960 5,950 allowance, (b) incapacity benefit and (c) employment Notes: and support allowance. [5947] 1. Incapacity Benefit was replaced by Employment Support Allowance (ESA) from October 2008. 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been Chris Grayling: The information is provided in the applied. following table. 3. Caseload for DLA show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement example if they are in hospital. allowance, and disability living allowance: November 2009 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. Worsley and Eccles South parliamentary constituency 5. IB/SDA ‘Claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who fail the contributions conditions but receive a National Insurance Credit, i.e. ESA 940 ‘credits only cases’. Source: IB/SPA 5,250 DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study DLA 7,740 Notes: 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) from October 2008. Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been Work and Pensions how many people are in receipt of applied. (a) disability living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit 3. Caseload for DLA shows the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, and (c) employment and support allowance in for example if they are in hospital. Makerfield constituency. [6055] 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. 5. IB/SDA ‘Claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who fail the contributions conditions but receive a national insurance credit, i.e. ‘credits only cases’. Chris Grayling: The information is provided in the Source: following table: DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, and disability living allowance, November 2009 Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Parliamentary Work and Pensions how many people are in receipt of constituency ESA IB/SDA DLA (a) disability living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit and (c) employment support allowance in (i) Glasgow Makerfield 860 4,940 6,800 Notes: North and (ii) Ealing Central and Acton constituency. 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) [5998] from October 2008. 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been applied. Chris Grayling: The information is provided in the 3. Caseload for DLA show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and following table. exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. allowance, and disability living allowance: November 2009 5. IB/SDA ’claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who Parliamentary constituency ESA IB/SDA DLA fail the contributions conditions but receive a national insurance credit, i.e. ’credits only cases’. Glasgow North 690 3,950 4,790 Source: DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. Ealing Central and Acton 620 3,450 3,530 223W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 224W

Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: The Work Capability Assessment was Work and Pensions how many people resident in developed in consultation with medical and other experts Hampstead and Kilburn constituency are in receipt of alongside specialist disability groups such as Mind. The (a) disability living allowance, (b) invalidity benefit scoring system is much fairer and simpler, removing a and (c) employment and support allowance. [6489] potential bias in the Personal Capability Assessment against people with mental health conditions, as opposed Chris Grayling: The information requested is as follows: to limitation of physical function. Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement The Department undertook an internal review of the allowance, and disability living allowance: November 2009. Work Capability Assessment which was published on Parliamentary constituency ESA IB/SDA DLA 29 March 2010. The review found that generally the Hampstead and Kilburn 700 4,510 4,510 assessment accurately identifies individuals for benefit. Notes: The review made a number of recommendations for 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) improving the Work Capability Assessment. We announced from October 2008. on 29 June that we will be implementing those 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been applied. recommendations. Additionally, the Government also 3.Caseload for DLA shows the number of people in receipt of an allowance, have a statutory commitment to arrange an independent and excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, review of the main elements of the Work Capability for example if they are in hospital. 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. Assessment every year for the first five years of operation. 5. IB/SDA ’Claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who This review will look at the Work Capability Assessment fail the contributions conditions but receive a National Insurance Credit, i.e. in operation and is distinct from the department-led ’credits only cases’. Source: review which focussed on the technical accuracy of the DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% assessment and whether it could better account for how data. individuals adapt to their condition. The review, announced on the 29 June, will be conducted by Professor Malcolm Diana R. Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Harrington, acting as lead reviewer. Work and Pensions how many people are in receipt of (a) disability living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit Support for people who have a mental illness is and (c) employment and support allowance in currently available through Jobcentre Plus Personal Advisers Kingston upon Hull North constituency. [6526] as well as a variety of Government funded programmes, these will be superseded by the Work Programme by Chris Grayling: The information is presented as follows: summer 2011 .We will continue to support and protect the most vulnerable and disabled people who are assessed Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement as not capable of work. People in the Support Group of allowance, and disability living allowance: November 2009 Employment and Support Allowance are not required Parliamentary constituency ESA IB/SDA DLA to under take work focused activity and also receive a Kingston upon Hull North 840 4,130 5,890 higher rate of benefit. Notes: 1. Incapacity Benefit was replaced by Employment Support Allowance (ESA) Work Capability Assessment: Wigan from October 2008. 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been applied. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 3. Caseload for DLA shows the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, and Pensions how many work capability assessments for example if they are in hospital. have been carried out in Wigan constituency in each 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. year since they were introduced. [5250] 5. IB/SDA ‘Claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who fail the contributions conditions but receive a National Insurance Credit, i.e. ‘credits only cases’. Chris Grayling: The information requested is not Source: available. The available information is as follows. DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% data Since the employment and support allowance’s was Vacancies: Sex Establishments introduced on 27 October 2008, the number of assessments performed at Wigan Medical Examination Centre is as follows. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when he expects to publish his Completed exams formal response to the consultation on the acceptance and advertising of vacancies in the adult entertainment 2008 4 industry by Jobcentre Plus. [5562] 2009 2277 2010 1561 Chris Grayling: We will publish the coalition Government response to the consultation shortly.

Work Capability Assessment: Mental Illness FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Manipur Province and Pensions what assessment he has made of the application of the employment support allowance’s 17. David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for requirement for a work capability assessment to people Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what who have a mental illness; what plans his Department representations he has made to the Government of has to support those with mental illness who are not India on lifting restrictions on access to Manipur able to work; and if he will make a statement. [5248] province; and if he will make a statement. [5792] 225W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 226W

Alistair Burt: We have not made representations to Mr Lidington: We will strongly defend the UK’s the Indian Government on this issue. Access to Manipur national interests in the forthcoming EU budget and other Indian states is a matter for the Government negotiations. The EU budget should only focus on of India. those areas where it adds value, and should deliver more for less. Reform of the EU budget was last discussed Nuclear Programme: Iran formally at the December European Council. Heads of Government agreed conclusions calling on the Commission 18. Stephen Metcalfe: To ask the Secretary of State to produce a report in order for the Council to provide for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent orientations on priorities during 2010. discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the EU’s policy on Iran’s nuclear programme; and if he United Nations Reform will make a statement. [5793] 23. Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hague: I am in regular close contact with key EU Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent partners to ensure that the EU makes clear, through a discussions he has had with his international strong set of autonomous sanctions, that Iran cannot counterparts on reform of the United Nations. [5798] ignore its international obligations. Tough EU sanctions will make clear that the EU is determined to resolve this Mr Bellingham: My right hon. Friend the Foreign issue through diplomatic means. Secretary has not had recent discussions with his 19. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for international counterparts on reform of the United Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Nations. We expressed our position in the latest exchange discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the of views between all member states on UN Security EU’s policy on Iran’s nuclear programme; and if he Council reform at official level last Monday, 28 June. will make a statement. [5794] For example, the UK continues to work for reform of the Security Council including by supporting the candidacies Mr Hague: I am in regular close contact with key EU of Japan, India, Germany and Brazil for new permanent partners to ensure that the EU makes clear, through a seats, as well as African representation. strong set of autonomous sanctions, that Iran cannot ignore its international obligations. Tough EU sanctions British Citizens: Greece will make clear that the EU is determined to resolve this issue through diplomatic means. 24. Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what National Budgets: EU arrangements his Department has in place to manage relationships with the Greek authorities concerning the 20. Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State unlawful killing of British citizens on Greek soil. [5799] for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the prospects for agreement Mr Lidington: I am aware of the hon. Member’s deep to proposed changes to EU mechanisms for concerns about families who have lost loved ones in surveillance of national budgets. [5795] such tragic circumstances. I assure her that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Ministry of Justice and Mr Lidington: Bringing together consideration of the Greek Ministry of Justice are currently working fiscal and structural policy is good for the EU, and the together to find ways to strengthen the overall response UK supports this. However, the Government have made to the deaths of British nationals in Greece in suspicious it clear that the UK will not submit its budget to the EU circumstances. before it has been approved by this House. Departmental Conferences Middle East

21. Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he progress has been made in the middle east peace has made of his Department’s expenditure on (a) organisation of and (b) attendance at conferences in process; and if he will make a statement. [5796] each year since 1997. [6111] Alistair Burt: Recent events, including in Gaza, have highlighted the urgent need for progress towards a two Alistair Burt: The information is not held centrally state solution. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. spoke to Senator Mitchell last week about progress on Departmental Mobile Phones proximity talks. We will continue to buttress the diplomatic initiative of President Obama’s Administration and urge both sides to work for progress. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the EU Budget answer to the hon. Member for West Bromwich East of 9 June 2010, Official Report, column 164W, on 22. Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for departmental mobile phones, what the (a) purchase Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions cost of the handset, (b) network provider, (c) type of he has had at EU level on the process for limiting the tariff and (d) name of the supplier is of (i) each size of the next EU budget; and if he will make a BlackBerry device and (ii) the in-car telephone issued statement. [5797] to Ministers in his Department. [4012] 227W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 228W

Alistair Burt [holding answer 24 June 2010]: Foreign Tribunal NDPB and Commonwealth Office (FCO) ministerial mobile The Foreign Compensation Commission and in-car telephony services are provided via the Office Foreign and Commonwealth Office of Government Commerce Mobile Solutions (II) Old Admiralty Building Framework Agreement with Vodafone. This covers five ministerial BlackBerry devices on BlackBerry Team/ London Flexwork tariffs, and one in-car device on a Teamwork SW1A 2PA tariff. Device purchase costs were from £50 to £325 each. Departmental Official Photographs Tariffs range from £3.75 to £16.50 per month. BlackBerries and phones were recovered from former Ministers and reissued within the FCO as appropriate. Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department has spent on official photographs of Departmental NDPBs Ministers since the formation of the present administration. [6455] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the address Alistair Burt: All Ministers have used the Foreign and is of the head office of each non-departmental public Commonwealth Office in-house photographer, part of body for which his Department is responsible. [5717] the Audio Visual team, and photographs have been produced digitally. Therefore no costs were incurred. Alistair Burt: The head office addresses for each Euro non-departmental public body (NDPB) of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office are as follows. Further details can be found at the following website address: Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the Government http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what-we-do/working-in- plan to support any amendments to EU treaties which partnership/working-with-stakeholder-groups/100-dept- may be proposed to enable the rules governing the euro public-bodies to be amended in the light of the Greek sovereign debt Executive NDPBs situation. [5821] The British Council 10 Spring Gardens Mr Lidington: Any EU treaty, even one that applies London just to the euro area, will need the unanimous agreement of all 27 EU member states, including the UK, which SW1A 2BN has a veto. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister Westminster Foundation for Democracy said on Monday 21 June: Artillery House “We will back measures that help sort out the Eurozone. We 11/19 Artillery Row will not back measures that will pass power from the UK to Brussels.” London SW1P 1RT Gibraltar: Equality The Great Britain and China Centre 15 Belgrave Square Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what response London his Department plans to make to the European Court SW1X 8PS of Justice judgment C-186/09 on the non- The Marshall Aid Commemoration Commission implementation of equality legislation in Gibraltar. John Foster House [6294] 36, Gordon Square Mr Lidington: Case C-186/09 relates to the London implementation of Directive 2004/113/EC. This directive WC1H OPF has now been implemented in Gibraltar. Transposition Advisory NDPBs was notified to the Commission by means of a letter from the Government, dated 31 May 2010. The Government Hospitality Committee for the Purchase of Wine Gulf of Mexico: Oil Lancaster House St James Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for London Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most SW1A 2PA recent assessment is of the effects on relations between the UK and the US of the situation in the Gulf of The Diplomatic Service Appeals Board Mexico. [5198] Employee Relations Human Resources Directorate Alistair Burt: The UK continues to have a very strong Foreign and Commonwealth Office relationship with the United States of America. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister met with President Old Admiralty Building Obama at the G20 summit in Toronto on 26 June, London where the President referred to a partnership ’built on a SW1A 2PA rock solid foundation’. They spoke about the oil spill in 229W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 230W the Gulf of Mexico in their meeting. They acknowledged Middle East: Armed Conflict that BP understood the scale of the catastrophe, was committed to clearing up the spill and was ready to Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for respond to legitimate compensation claims against it. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent steps They also agreed that it was important for both the UK his Department has taken to seek to secure access for and US that the company remains viable, stable and the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit strong going forward. Gilad Shalit. [4919] India and Pakistan: Nuclear Weapons Alistair Burt: The UK has long called for Gilad Shalit’s immediate and unconditional release. His continued Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for captivity without any access to the International Committee Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the of the Red Cross and with only very occasional, minimal Government are taking to encourage India and contact with his family is utterly unacceptable. Pakistan to participate more fully in international We continue to call on Hamas to renounce violence negotiations on nuclear security. [5404] and take immediate and concrete steps towards the Quartet principles and to free Gilad Shalit without Alistair Burt: Nuclear security is a policy priority for delay. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary made the Government. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister this clear in a public statement on 25 June on the fourth attended the recent G8 summit in Canada, which concluded anniversary of Mr Shalit’s detention. with a clear declaration of the importance of nuclear security and a commitment from G8 leaders to continue Nuclear Test Ban: Treaties work together for our shared peace and security, including fulfilment of commitments made at the Washington Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Nuclear Security summit in April, which both Pakistan Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the and India participated. We will continue to encourage Government plan to take to seek to persuade Annex 2 the active participation of both countries in the run up countries to (a) sign and (b) ratify the Comprehensive to the next Nuclear Security summit in Seoul, 2012. Nuclear Test Ban Treaty; and how many staff his Government Ministers and officials will continue to Department has assigned to undertake work in discuss nuclear security with the Governments of India connection with that Treaty. [4903] and Pakistan, within the context of a broad strategy of engagement that focuses not just on security, but on Alistair Burt: The Government will continue to take developing our cultural, educational, scientific contact all appropriate opportunities to promote signature and and commercial links. ratification of the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty (CTBT), with particular focus on the remaining nine Iraq: Christianity annex 2 countries. We will also continue to support the CTBT Organisation’s own efforts to promote entry into Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for force, including through CTBT article XVI (entry into Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what force) events. representations he has received on the treatment of The Government will continue to support the United Christian communities in Iraq. [6237] States of America (US) Administration’s commitment to ratify the treaty, recognising that US ratification is Alistair Burt: Foreign and Commonwealth officials likely to provide an impetus for other annex 2 countries in Iraq and London regularly meet representatives of to follow suit. the Iraqi Christian community to hear their concerns. My nuclear team works on CTBT, together with On 9 June 2010, I met with Canon Andrew White, vicar colleagues from the Ministry Of Defence. of St George’s church in Baghdad, to discuss the situation of Christians in Iraq. Pakistan: Counter-terrorism We regularly urge the Iraqi government to protect all Iraqi communities, including Christians, and to deal Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for appropriately with those who are found responsible for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which projects any acts of violence and intimidation because of political, funded by his Department as part of counter-terrorism ethnic or religious affiliation. and counter-radicalisation programmes in Pakistan will not continue to be funded in financial year Israel: Nuclear Weapons 2011-12. [5597]

Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: The Counter Terrorism and Radicalisation Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if the programme’s allocation for 2011-12 will be assessed as Government will take steps to encourage the part of the Government-wide Spending Review to be Government of Israel to declare the number, type and announced in October. The allocation of resources to location of its nuclear weapons. [5470] particular countries and projects will be based on an assessment of the threat to the UK and UK interests. Alistair Burt: We are aware of the widespread assumption that Israel possesses nuclear weapons. We have always Pakistan: Foreign Relations encouraged all states to be as transparent as possible about their civilian—and, where applicable, military— Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for nuclear programmes and capabilities. We continue to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent call on Israel to sign up to the non-proliferation treaty assessment he has made of the state of UK relations as a non-nuclear weapon state. with Pakistan. [6162] 231W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 232W

Alistair Burt: Pakistan is a key partner for the UK Freedom Flotilla and accompanying journalists being with whom we enjoy a strong and productive bilateral made available to the Commission of Inquiry relationship. The primary vehicle for the bilateral established by the government of Israel to enable that relationship is the UK-Pakistan Strategic Dialogue. My inquiry to meet international standards. [6317] right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary visited Pakistan from 23-25 June 2010, and during the visit emphasised Alistair Burt: We believe the Inquiry should have the Government’s desire to deepen the strategic dialogue, access to all material which may assist it. We have not with close co-operation in areas such as education, made an assessment on the significance of photographic economic co-operation , counter-terrorism and commerce. and video evidence, which was reportedly confiscated from members of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, being Palestinians: International Assistance made available to the Commission of Inquiry. Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for We have been informed by the Israeli authorities that Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate his the return of electronic and media equipment is under Department has made of the number of (a) mobile consideration by the Israeli Defence Forces. I discussed telephones, (b) video cameras and (c) digital cameras this issue with the British Nationals during my meeting confiscated by the Israeli authorities from British with them on 17 June and our officials have raised this members of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla that have yet to with their Israeli counterparts. We will continue to press be returned. [6315] for its return and availability for use in the Inquiry, as required by those conducting it. Alistair Burt: We have made no such estimate, though My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary underlined we have been provided with some information by some the need for the Commission to provide a full, credible, of the British nationals on the flotilla. impartial and independent investigation that the We have been informed by the Israeli authorities that international community can respect. the return of electronic and media equipment is under consideration by the Israeli Defence Forces. We will Russia: Trials continue to press for its return and availability for use in the Inquiry, as required by those conducting it. Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assurances Department is taking to seek to ensure respect for the he has (a) sought from and (b) obtained from the rule of law and the right to a fair trial in the Russian Israeli government on it returning (i) contemporary Federation; and if he will make a statement. [5832] notes, (ii) photographic evidence, (iii) video footage and (iv) other possessions confiscated from members of Mr Lidington: We welcome President Medvedev’s the Gaza Freedom Flotilla and accompanying focus on the need to strengthen the rule of law in journalists in their original condition. [6316] Russia, including his focus on tackling corruption and promoting the independence of the judiciary. Promoting Alistair Burt: We have raised these specific issues with the rule of law, including the independence of the Israel’s ambassador to the UK. Our ambassador to judiciary, is a key element of the UK’s and EU’s engagement Israel and other members of our Embassy in Tel Aviv with Russia. have also raised the matter on a number of occasions The rule of law underpins many of the steps the with the Israeli authorities. It has also been raised by Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) and other the EU presidency, on behalf of EU Heads of Mission, Government Departments will take on Russia. The with the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Attorney-General and Lord Chancellor discussed rule Although we are not legally obliged to pursue either of law issues with the Russian Justice Minister during legal action, or to seek the return of a British national’s his recent visit to the UK. The annual UK/Russia property, nor is it part of our consular assistance policy bilateral human rights talks have enabled us to raise our to do so, exceptionally in this case, we have asked our concerns from a human rights perspective and we will consular staff in Istanbul to follow up with the flotilla do so again at the next talks planned for early 2011. We organisers, Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms will continue to remind Russia that good governance and Humanitarian Relief (Insani Yardim Vakfi) (IHH) and a rules based system are vital in building investor who still hold over 300 pieces of unclaimed luggage, confidence and attracting foreign investment. A transparent including watches, phones and cameras. Our consular and independent Russian legal system is in all our staff have taken photos of everything that was seen in interests. IHH’s storage, which we will shortly be distributing to The FCO funds projects supporting the rule of law in the British nationals involved so they can attempt to Russia. In the last financial year, we supported 10 identify any property that is theirs. projects at a total cost of £602,000. In the financial year We have been informed by the Israeli authorities that 2010-2011, we are funding nine projects costing £624,295. the return of electronic and media equipment is under These projects include: consideration by the Israeli Defence Forces. We will supporting the safety of human rights defenders on duty by continue to press for its return and availability for use in introducing new models of field work such as joint mobile the Inquiry, as required by those conducting it. groups; increasing awareness of international human rights standards Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for across the criminal justice system, with the aim of preventing Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment false charges from being made by law enforcement agencies; and he has made of the significance of photographic and improving adherence to the principles in the European convention video evidence confiscated from members of the Gaza on human rights in domestic legislation and practice. 233W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 234W

Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Business: Corruption Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department is continuing to monitor the trial of Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Mikhail Khodorkovsky; and if he will make a for Business, Innovation and Skills what account his statement. [5833] Department takes of whether companies have anti- corruption procedures in place when deciding whether Mr Lidington: Our embassy in Moscow is watching to provide them with financial support. [5613] developments in Mr Khodorkovsky’s case closely, and is participating in trial monitoring with EU partners Mr Davey: While anti-corruption procedures are not and the US. The Government underline the importance a prerequisite for the provision of funding, the Department that the trial should be fair and impartial. takes steps in relation to each financial support scheme USA: Passports to ensure that the funding provided is employed for the purposes for which it was intended. For example, under David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for the Grant for Business Investment scheme, funding is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the US only provided where a company can demonstrate that administration has notified him of the discovery of a project costs have been properly defrayed. This includes forged British passport in the course of a recent confirmation by an independent accountant. investigation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation The Export Credits Guarantee Department (ECGD), into espionage. [5831] states in its Mission and Principles that it aims to take account of factors beyond the purely financial, and of Alistair Burt: This is primarily a matter for the US relevant government policies, including in respect of authorities, but we are looking into any British links. bribery and corruption when it is asked to support We are investigating this with the US and it would be export transactions. Furthermore, it is ECGD’s policy inappropriate to comment further at this stage. to comply with all international agreements which apply to the operations of export credit agencies, the relevant agreement on bribery and corruption being the OECD LEADER OF THE HOUSE Council Recommendation on Bribery and Officially Departmental Official Cars Supported Export Credits. The Department also encourages UK companies Mr Bain: To ask the Leader of the House which investing overseas to apply the anti-corruption chapter Ministers in his office have used an allocated of the voluntary OECD Guidelines on Multinational ministerial car to travel between the Cabinet Office and Enterprises and to consider the good practice anti-bribery the House of Commons on each day since 21 May guidance on internal controls, ethics, and compliance 2010. [5553] adopted by the OECD in February this year. Sir George Young: Neither my hon. Friend nor I have used an allocated ministerial car to travel between the Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State office and the House of Commons. for Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) information and (b) guidance on the exclusion of companies found guilty of corruption from public BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS tenders following the implementation of the EU Public Procurement Directive 2004/18/EC his Department has Business Link given to officials providing overseas trade and investment support for UK companies. [5614] Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what his latest Mr Davey: The Government provide annual instructions, assessment is of the merits of Business Link; and pre-posting briefings and an on-line toolkit to support whether he plans to end the scheme. [6461] officials, in overseas posts, report allegations of UK Mr Prisk: Business support funded by the public bribery and advise UK companies on how to manage sector is designed to address gaps in private provision, the risks of overseas corruption. The Office of Government which lead to many businesses making sub-optimal use Commerce has also published guidance on their website of external advice and guidance. The 2007 economic concerning mandatory exclusion from tenders of economic impact evaluation of Business Link regional services operators convicted of certain offences, including found that within a year of assisting businesses the participation in criminal organisations, corruption, money- additional growth generated amounted to £2.26 of laundering and fraud. additional value for every £1 spent on the service. The Business: Government Assistance web and advisor service have also been identified as creating significant benefits to businesses through hours Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for saved and reduced cost of regulation compliance. Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses The Coalition Government are committed to replacing (a) in Great Yarmouth constituency, (b) in the East of regional development agencies with local enterprise England region and (c) nationally have received equity partnerships. We are working with the regional development investment from the Capital for Enterprise Fund since agencies (RDAs) to enable this transition. We are reviewing that scheme’s inception. [6172] all the functions of the RDAs and we believe some of these are best led nationally, including responsibility for Mr Prisk: The Capital for Enterprise Fund has made business support. The forthcoming White Paper on investments in 38 businesses with a total value of sub-national economic growth will set out our approach £50.8 million. No investments have been made in the in more detail. east of England including Great Yarmouth. 235W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 236W

Business: West Midlands £ Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 2000-01 153,245 for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his 2004-05 219,102 Department plans to take to increase the level of access 2005-06 231,736 to credit for small businesses in (a) Coventry and (b) 2007-08 15,555 the West Midlands. [6159] 2009-10 5,980

Mr Prisk: The Government have announced a number Restaurants are located in central London at 1 Victoria of measures which will help small businesses access street and 151 Buckingham Palace road. They are run credit throughout the UK including in Coventry and on a commercial basis by our contracted catering service the rest of the West Midlands: provider and BIS does not therefore provide a direct subsidy. However, the contractor is not charged for the The Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG) will be increased by £200 million to support £700 million of additional lending space that is occupied by the restaurants at both locations. until 31 March 2011. In addition, a processing target of 20 BIS also meets the costs for any replacement ’heavy’ business days will be introduced for all major lenders participating equipment in the restaurants, e.g. ovens, freezers, in the EFG. dishwashers etc. The creation of the Growth Capital Fund to address a gap in The 1 Victoria street restaurant was last refurbished the market for growth capital for small to medium-sized businesses. in 2001 and the spend shown above for that year relates A new Enterprise Capital Fund to provide early stage risk to new equipment purchased as part of the refurbishment. capital to innovative small businesses with high growth potential. The refurbishment of the restaurant was part of a wider A Green Paper to be published before the summer recess to refurbishment of the Conference Centre, which adjoins consider the broad range of finance options for businesses of the restaurant at 1 Victoria street, and it is not possible different sizes. to split further refurbishment costs for the restaurant The Banking industry has published a new set of principles from the cost of the refurbishment of the area as a that high street banks will follow when lending to SMEs. whole. The Government will also be working with the banking industry The figure for 2004-05 relates to the purchase of new on the disclosure of regional lending data. equipment for the restaurant at 151 Buckingham Palace Use funds from dormant bank accounts to establish a ‘Big road and works to the sump. Society Bank’, which will provide new finance for neighbourhood groups, charities, social enterprises and other non-governmental The figure shown for 2005-06 relates to a project bodies. undertaken to enlarge the kitchen dishwasher area in Government will create a ‘green investment bank’. Details will the 1 Victoria street restaurant and includes the costs follow in the autumn. for new dishwashers. Foster ‘diversity in financial services, promote mutuals’ and The figures shown for 2007-08 and 2009-10 were for create a more competitive banking industry. replacement equipment in the restaurant at 1 Victoria In addition to these new measures Advantage West street. Midlands supported venture capital funds still have Departmental Legislation money to invest in growth businesses from across the region. AWM continue to make offers of support under the Grant for Business Investment. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what files on (a) the Departmental Art Works Abortion Act 1967 and (b) the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act (i) 1990 and (ii) 2008 his Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has created since July 2008; and if he will Business, Innovation and Skills how much his make a statement. [5528] Department has spent on works of art since 2007. Mr Willetts: This Department has created no files on [6131] (a) the Abortion Act 1967 and (b) the Human Fertilisation Mr Davey: This Department and its predecessors has and Embryology Act (i) 1990 and (ii) 2008, since July not spent anything on works of art since 2007. All 2008. works of art are loaned from the Government Art Departmental Manpower Collection. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Catering Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff worked in his Department’s ministerial support office on (a) Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 May 2010 and (b) 1 July 2010. [6156] Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department and its predecessors have spent on staff Mr Davey [holding answer 5 July 2010]: On1May restaurants in each of the last 10 years; where each 2010 there were 40 people in the Department’s ministerial such restaurant is located; what budgetary support his Private Offices and on 1 July 2010 there were 30. Department provides for each; on what date each was last refurbished; at what cost; and if he will make a East of England Development Agency statement. [5527] Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: Since 2001, this Department and its Business, Innovation and Skills what websites have predecessors spent the following on its staff restaurants: been (a) operated and (b) commissioned by the East 237W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 238W of England Development Agency in each year since its length of time each visitor spent on such websites in establishment; how much each such website cost the each such year; and if he will make a statement. [5231] Agency in each such year; what estimate has been made of the number of unique visitors to each site in each Mr Prisk: The following tables provide the details of such year; what estimate has been made of the average East of England Development Agency’s websites since its establishment:

Costs for websites commissioned and operated by EEDA £ 1999- Website/domain 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 www.eeda.org.uk n/a n/a n/a 10,472 8,824 51,403 94,909 89,947 63,509 71,156 88,821 www.eastofengland.uk.com n/a n/a n/a 25,550 11,265 1,220 1,250 0 0 0 19,500 www.takeiton.org.uk————————12,72528,2751,500 www.RunningtheGauntlet.com — — —————122,600 17,433 137,100 — www.BigFish.com ———————1— 1— 1—— www.bizgrowtheast.com———————1— 1— 1—— www.cutyourcarbon.org.uk — — ———————30,00020,000 www.insighteast.org.uk2 n/a n/a n/a n/a 50,000 47,172 34,153 77,452 46,364 35,369 15,130 www.spaceforideas.uk.com/ n/a n/a n/a n/a 3,000 17,235 2,567 960 0 1,077 — www.bizmapeast.co.uk/ ————————26,86090044,090 www.landmarkeast.org.uk — — — — 12,131 13,707 11,422 1,259 1,095 1,245 945 www.erebusonline.org.uk — — ————————3,930 www.dpeast.org — — ————————3,930 n/a = Data not available ‘—’ = Denote that the site was not in operation (or is no longer operated by EEDA). 1 Indicates brace 2 Insight East was previously www.eastofenglandobservatory.org.uk The site uses the same content management system but the domain name has changed. Note: Hosting costs are included in the EEDA line but are shared across the following sites: www.eeda.org.uk www.eastofengland.uk.com www.takeiton.org.uk www.RunningtheGauntlet.com www.BigFish.com www.bizgrowtheast.com Unique visitors to and average time spent on websites commissioned and operated by EEDA 1999- Website/domain 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 www.eeda.org.uk n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 102,478 128,493 129,901 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 3m1s 2m22s 2m27s www.eastofengland.uk.com n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a www.takeiton.org.uk————————1,0506,2852,369 ————————3m9s 2m20s 2m16s www.RunningtheGauntlet.com ———————n/an/a110,511 — ———————n/an/a22m40s — www.BigFish.com ———————n/an/a 1—— ———————n/an/a 2—— www.bizgrowtheast.com———————n/an/a 1—— 239W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 240W

Unique visitors to and average time spent on websites commissioned and operated by EEDA 1999- Website/domain 2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

———————n/an/a 2—— www.cutyourcarbon.org.uk ———————— — n/an/a www.insighteast.org.uk3 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a www.spaceforideas.uk.com/ ————n/an/an/an/an/an/a— www.bizmapeast.co.uk/ ———————— n/a7,84023,500 ———————— n/a3m26s 3m31s www.landmarkeast.org.uk ————n/an/an/an/an/an/an/a www.erebusonline.org.uk ———————— — — n/a www.dpeast.org ———————— — — n/a n/a = Data not available ‘—’ = Denotes that the site was not in operation 1 Indicates brace 2 Indicates brace 3 Insight East was previously www.eastofenglandobservatory.org.uk

Details of the websites www.cutyourcarbon.org.uk www.eeda.org.uk Cut your Carbon was a campaign that offers support EEDA’s website is the organisation’s main point of and information to communities in the East of England contact with businesses, external stakeholders and the that want to tackle climate change. The website was the media. This site hosts statutory information, such as the primary interface between EEDA’s Cut Your Carbon regional economic strategy, EEDA’s annual report and team and participating communities across the East of accounts and board papers, as well as up to date information England. on business events, contracts and tenders, and media www.insighteast.org.uk announcements. The website is an interface through Insight East (formerly the East of England Observatory) which the public are able to contact the organisation, is the regional intelligence centre for the East of England. sign up to e-briefings, or find their way to current Insight East provides a range of services to help the economic intelligence and statistics. region’s decision-makers better understand the economy www.eastofengland.uk.com and factors affecting it. The East of England website was set up to promote www.spaceforideas.uk.com the region as a profitable place to do business and a The space for ideas website was created to support vibrant place to live in and visit. This website is also the East of England regional promotion campaign, used by the business community in the region and hosts focusing on supporting businesses to improve their current campaigns and information of relevance to performance while at the same time supporting the businesses operating in the East of England. region as a great place to live and work. It contained a www.takeiton.org.uk suite of material designed to encourage creative thinking Takeiton is a business support programme designed and problem solving with materials to download and to help business recognise and implement business use. improvement through the effective use of IT. The website www.landmarkeast.org.uk was designed to promote the programme of grants and Landmark East is a competition launched by EEDA specialist IT advice as well as show case best practice. to find a regional landmark for the East of England. www.RunningtheGauntlet.com www.erebusonline.org.uk www.BigFish.com Established to capture business and domestic demand www.bizgrowtheast.com for next generation broadband services in the East of Established to promote and support a business support England. The information is provided free to commercial programme designed to help early stage SME’s attract and public organisations to support the business case angel and VC investment. for broadband infrastructure projects. This initiative www.bizmapeast.co.uk/ has been widely welcomed by commercial organisations and has significant support in the region. Is an innovative online tool to help small businesses identify the support that is right for their needs. The www.dpeast.org website is being adopted by partners and local authorities Is an online community site established to support and has been widely commended by businesses and collaboration in the development of community and business representative groups. commercial broadband projects. 241W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 242W

EU External Trade: Colombia and Peru Mr Hayes: There are 158 colleges eligible to receive a share of the renewal grant. These colleges are listed as Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for follows. These very same colleges are also eligible to Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer apply for a share of the enhanced renewal grant. of 24 June 2010, Official Report, column 316W, on Eligible colleges Peru: EU external trade, what mechanisms are in place Abingdon and Witney college to monitor the implementation of the Trade and Sustainable Development Chapter of the EU-Andean Accrington and Rossendale college (Peru and Colombia) Free Trade Agreement. [5987] Amersham and Wycombe college Askham Bryan Mr Davey: The Trade and Sustainable Development chapter of the agreement incorporates a clause committing Aylesbury college each party to establish a Council on Trade and Sustainable Barking college Development. The Council shall consist of representatives Bamfield college responsible for labour, environmental and trade matters Basingstoke college of technology who will meet within the first year following the entry Bedford college into force of the agreement and thereafter as necessary. The Council will have a duty to identify actions for Bexley college achievement of the objectives of the agreement and to Bicton college identify recommendations for good implementation. Blackburn college Once a year the Council will meet with civil society Blackpool and the Fylde college organisations and the public to carry out discussions related to the implementation of this chapter. Boston college, Lincolnshire Bournemouth and Poole further education college Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Bradford college Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 24 June 2010, Official Report, column 316W, on Bridgwater college Peru: EU external trade, whether he has made an Brockenhurst college assessment of the likely effects on the level of illegal Brooklands college logging in the Peruvian Amazon of the EU-Andean Brooksby Melton college (Peru and Colombia) Free Trade Agreement. [5988] Burton college Mr Davey: The European Commission has undertaken Bury college extensive analysis of the EU-Andean (Peru and Colombia) Cambridge regional college Free Trade Agreement, which is in the public domain. The latest report, dating from July 2009 prior to conclusion Capel Manor college of negotiations, states that increased market access for Carlisle college processed timber products can be expected to add to Carshalton college existing deforestation trends, and illegal logging is a significant contributor to this problem. The Sustainable Central Bedfordshire college Development chapter of the agreement contains provisions Chelmsford college to counter this, aiming to improve forest law enforcement Chesterfield college and governance, and promote trade in legal and sustainable Chichester college forest products. Cirencester college Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for City college Brighton Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer City college Plymouth of 24 June 2010, Official Report, column 316W, on Peru: EU external trade, what recent assessment he has City of Bath college made of the merits of the human rights suspension City of Sunderland college clause in the Trade and Sustainable Development City of Wolverhampton college Chapter of the EU-Andean (Peru and Colombia) Free Cleveland college of art and design Trade Agreement. [5989] College of Harringey, Enfield and North East London Mr Davey: The Human Rights suspension clause in College of West Anglia the EU-Andean (Peru and Colombia) Free Trade Craven college Agreement sends an important political signal that EU member states will always aim to promote principles of Dearne Valley college human rights and democracy. It also provides a locus Derwentside college for the EU to regularly raise human rights concerns Dudley college with Peru and Colombia. Eastleigh college Further Education: Finance Fareham college Farnborough college of technology (FCOT) Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Fircroft college of adult education Business, Innovation and Skills which further education colleges are eligible to apply for funding Grantham college from the College Investment Fund. [5485] Greenwich community college 243W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 244W

Grimsby Institute Plymouth college of art and design Guildford college of further and higher education Preston college Hackney community college Redbridge college Halesowen college Richmond adult community college Harlow college Richmond upon Thames college Harrow college Riverside college Halton Hartpury college Rotherham college of arts and technology Havering college of further education Royal Forest of Dean college Henley college, Coventry Runshaw college Hereford college of arts Ruskin college Hereward college, Coventry Salford college Hillcroft college SEEVIC (Essex) Hopwood Hall college Shipley college Hugh Baird college Shrewsbury college of arts and technology Hull college South Downs college Huntingdonshire regional college South Nottingham Isle of Wight college South Staffordshire college Joseph Priestley college South Tyneside college Kensington and Chelsea college South Worcestershire college Kidderminster college Southgate college Kingston college Southport college Kingston Maurward college Knowsley Community college Southwark college Lakes College West Cumbria Sparsholt college Lancaster and Morecambe college Stafford college, Staffordshire Leeds college of art and design Stanmore college Leeds college of building Stourbridge college Leek college of further education and school of art Stratford college Lewisham college Strode college Lincoln college Sussex Downs college Loughborough college Tameside college Lowestoft college Telford college of arts and technology Mary Ward Centre (The) Thanet college Mid Cheshire college The Calderdale colleges Corporation Milton Keynes college The Henley college Morley college The Oldham college Moulton college Tower Hamlets college Myerscough college Tyne metropolitan college New college Nottingham Uxbridge college New college Stamford Wakefield college New college Swindon Walford and North Shropshire college Newbury college Waltham Forest college Newham college of further education West Nottinghamshire college Northern college for residential adult education West Suffolk college PETROC (new name for North and East Devon colleges) Weymouth college North East Surrey college of technology (Nescot) Wiltshire college North East Worcestershire college Worcester college of technology North Hertfordshire college North Lindsey college Workers’ Educational Association North Nottinghamshire college Working Men’s college (The) North Warwickshire and Hinckley college Worthing college Northbrook college Yeovil college Northumberland college Further Education: Greater London Norton Radstock college Norwich City college Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Oaklands college Business, Innovation and Skills which further Otley college education colleges in London will be eligible to apply Oxford and Cherwell Valley college for funds from the £50 million of capital funding Peterborough regional college announced by his Department on 21 June 2010. [6465] 245W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 246W

Mr Hayes: There are 27 further education colleges (2) what his policy is on the continuance of the from the Greater London Region eligible to receive a higher education sub-group of the cross-Government share of the £30 million ‘Renewal Grant’. These colleges working group on anti-Semitism; what discussions he are listed as follows. These very same colleges are also has had with ministerial colleagues about this group eligible to apply for a share of the £20 million ‘Enhanced since his appointment; and if he will make a statement; Renewal Grant’. [5584] Eligible colleges (3) what guidance his Department has issued to Barking college higher education institutions on combating (a) anti- Bexley college Semitism, (b) stereotyping of the Jewish community Capel Manor college and (c) violent extremism; what discussions his Department has had with the Jewish community on the Carshalton college issue; and if he will make a statement. [5585] College of Harringey, Enfield and North East London Greenwich Community college Mr Willetts: The meeting with Jewish community Hackney Community college and higher education stakeholders is in the process of Harrow college being arranged and I anticipate that it will involve Havering college of further education broad discussions on anti-Semitism and the implications Hillcroft college for the higher education sector, including the future of Kensington and Chelsea college the BIS Anti-Semitism and Higher Education Group. A Kingston college formal agenda has not yet been agreed for this meeting but I would be happy to place a copy in the Library Lewisham college when it is available. I have held no discussions with Mary Ward Centre (The) ministerial colleagues about this group. Morley college The former Department for Innovation, Universities Newham college of further education and Skills provided updated and revised guidance to Redbridge college higher education institutions on ’Promoting Good Campus Richmond Adult Community college Relations, Fostering Shared Values and Preventing Violent Richmond upon Thames college Extremism in Universities and Higher Education Colleges’, Southgate college available here: Southwark college http://www.dius.gov.uk/publications/extremismhe.pdf Stanmore college This provided detailed guidance to help institutions Tower Hamlets college address issues concerning violent extremism, applicable Uxbridge college to any form this might take on campus. The Department Waltham Forest college has not issued any guidance about the stereotyping of Workers’ Educational Association any community. Working Men’s college (The) The sector itself has also produced guidance which offers institutions practical strategies to deal with instances Graduates: Employment of hate crimes and intolerance on campus, including anti-Semitism. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State There is no place for racism of any form, including for Business, Innovation and Skills what assistance he anti-Semitism, in higher education. Universities have the primary responsibility for ensuring that their students plans to provide to graduate jobseekers. [6161] are not subject to threatening or abusive behaviour on Mr Willetts: We recognise that the job market remains campus and have access to a strong legislative framework competitive for new graduates in these difficult economic and guidance to help them deal effectively with instances times, as it does for others. However, a degree remains a of intolerance, racism and harassment in their institutions. good investment in the long term. Government would expect them to vigorously tackle these issues when they arise and report criminal attacks The Government are committed to helping prepare to the police when they occur on campus, or support graduates find work. That is why it is vital that prospective students to do so. students are equipped with the best possible information up front, which is why I have asked universities to provide employability statements to help them make Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for informed choices. Business, Innovation and Skills which directorate of his Department has responsibility for the (a) formulation and (b) implementation of policy on (i) countering Higher Education: Anti-Semitism anti-Semitism in higher education, (ii) the higher education sub-group of the cross-government working Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for group on anti-Semitism, (iii) the cross-government Business, Innovation and Skills (1) pursuant to the working group on anti-Semitism and (iv) Government answer of 24 June 2010, Official Report, columns policy on the work of the All Party Parliamentary 314-15, on higher education: anti-Semitism, when he Inquiry into Anti-Semitism; how many officials in his plans to meet representatives of the Jewish community Department at each pay band are employed in this and the higher education sector; if he will place in the Directorate; what other posts in his Department each Library a copy of the agenda of that meeting; and if he such official has held; and if he will make a statement. will make a statement; [5379] [5586] 247W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 248W

Mr Willetts: The higher education directorate has the Video Games: North East responsibility for policy on anti-Semitism in higher education. There are four officials within this directorate Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for who cover policy on anti-Semitism as part of their Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions remit—by grade these are two senior civil servants, one he has had with representatives of the computer games team leader and one higher executive officer. As experienced industry in the North East on assistance to that civil servants these officials have undertaken work in a industry. [6166] number other posts across Government in the past. Mr Vaizey: BIS Ministers have had none. However, as Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the hon. Member will know, the computer games industry Business, Innovation and Skills what files his is very important to the economy in the north-east. As Department holds on (a) the higher education such, I hope to speak to representatives from the industry sub-group of the cross-government working group on in the near future to discuss how the cuts to corporation anti-Semitism, (b) the cross-government working tax to 24%, announced by my right hon. Friend the group on anti-Semitism, (c) the All Party Chancellor of the Exchequer in his emergency budget, Parliamentary Inquiry into anti-Semitism and (d) and the increase in the employer national insurance countering anti-Semitism in higher education; and if he threshold will stimulate further growth and expansion will make a statement. [5587] of this sector. Mr Willetts: The Department holds the necessary records on each of (a), (b), (c) and (d) to enable officials to provide the appropriate policy support to CABINET OFFICE Ministers. Departmental Internet Mobile Phones: Health Hazards Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Office what criteria have been set to govern the creation Business, Innovation and Skills if he will introduce of new Government websites; and what role his regulations requiring mobile phone retailers to display Department’s Efficiency Board will have in (a) the prominently at the point of sale the amount of application of those criteria and (b) otherwise in the radiation absorbed by the user for each particular process of establishing a new Government website. model. [5484] [6538] Mr Vaizey: We have no plans to introduce such Mr Maude: I am determined to reduce the number of requirements. Advice on the availability of specific Government websites and so the creation of any new absorption rates (SAR) values from mobile phones was sites will be exceptional and only permitted where its given in the May 2000 report (Stewart Report) from the objective cannot be met in any other way. The reduction Independent Expert Group on Mobile Phones and an in the number of websites is part of the overall control update was given in the Mobile Phones and Health on communications spending, which the Efficiency Board 2004 Report from the National Radiological Protection is overseeing. Board (NRPB) now merged into the Health Protection Agency. Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet In addition, the UK’s four Mobile Network Operators, Office how much the Your Freedom website cost to namely 3UK, 02, Vodafone and Everything Everywhere build; what his most recent estimate is of the projected (following the merger of Orange and T-Mobile in March running costs for the website in each of the next three 2010) have resources within their customer service years; what the monetary value is of his Department’s departments to provide information and advice to users contract with Delib in respect of the website; on what regarding SAR values on handsets. date the creation of the website was authorised by his Department’s Efficiency Board; and if he will make a Information about SAR values is available on statement. [6539] manufacturers’ websites and also on the Mobile Manufacturers Forum website at: Mr Maude: The total cost of building www.mmfai.org www.hmg.gov.uk/yourfreedom Rover Group was £3,200 including vat. The application, which was bought off the shelf, is situated on an existing website Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for www.hmg.gov.uk Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the The most recent estimate for projected running costs for contribution by the Secretary of State in response to the website in this financial year is £19,853.98 including the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield on VAT; this includes the building costs mentioned. This is 16 June 2010, Official Report, column 898, what the an approximation because the overall cost is related to outcome has been of his inquiries into the status of the the amount of traffic received by the application. This MG Rover Trust Fund. [6415] cost could go up or down according to volume of Mr Prisk: The Department has looked into this issue. traffic. It is not possible to give running costs over a Secretary of State wrote to the Hon Member on 4 July three year time period as the lifespan of the project has enclosing a copy of a letter to the Justice for Rover not yet been decided. Workers Group which set out the Department’s position. The creation of the Your Freedom website did not A copy of the letter has been placed in the Libraries of come before the Efficiency Board as the estimated cost the House. was below the £20,000 threshold for approval. 249W Written Answers6 JULY 2010 Written Answers 250W

Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 6 July 2010: Office what policy on moderation is applied to his As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Department’s Your Freedom website. [6542] have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many of those resident in Liverpool have been in receipt of Mr Maude: The moderation policy is available on the jobseeker’s allowance for over 12 months. (6413) Your Freedom application at The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles the number www.hmg.gov.uk/yourfreedom/moderation-policy of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) from the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. Government Departments: Manpower There were 4,979 people resident in Liverpool in receipt of JSA for over 12 months in May 2010. National and local area estimates for many labour market Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Office from whom he received advice on conducting his count are available on the NOMIS website at: Department’s survey into non-payroll staff in respect http://www.nomisweb.co.uk of departments and non-departmental public bodies. [6368] DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Mr Maude: Further to my answer of 29 June 2010, Official Report, column 525W in conducting the recent Absent Voting: Fraud workforce management information scoping exercise, advice was sought from appropriate Cabinet Office Graham Evans: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister officials. what steps his Department plans to take to prevent postal vote fraud. [4345] Jobseeker’s Allowance: Liverpool Mr Harper: The Government are committed to tackling all forms of electoral fraud. We have set out our intention Steve Rotheram: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet to tackle fraudulent electoral registration by speeding Office how many of those resident in Liverpool have up the introduction of individual electoral registration. been in receipt of jobseekers’ allowance for over I understand that the Electoral Commission and the 12 months. [6413] Association of Chief Police Officers will produce a joint report on allegations of electoral malpractice early next Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. year. We will consider carefully the findings of this The information requested falls within the responsibility report and any recommendations about this issue contained of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority in the reports of the Electoral Commission into the to reply. conduct of the recent general election. 1MC Ministerial Corrections6 JULY 2010 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

Mr Gibb [holding answer 7 June 2010]: The Government Ministerial Corrections are committed to retaining the education maintenance Tuesday 6 July 2010 allowance (EMA). The budget for 2010-11 is £564 million, enabling young people aged 16 to 19 in England who meet residency criteria and have a bank account to INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT receive EMA payments if their household income is Global Poverty under £30,801 (based on evidence from the last full financial year). The following is an extract from the speech of the Minister of State, Department for International Development Letter of correction from Mr Gibb: during the Global Poverty debate: “Additional climate finance, as the previous Government An error has been identified in the written answer to made clear, will come from the existing aid budget.” the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) on 14 June 2010. [Official Report, 1 July 2010, Vol. 512, c. 1103-1104.] Letter of correction from Mr Alan Duncan: Unfortunately, the last line of the reply as published The Minister of State for International Development contained a typographical error and the household made a small error during his closing remarks in the income threshold amount should have read £30,810. Global Poverty Debate on 1 July 2010. He said “Additional climate finance, as the previous The correct response should have been: Government made clear, will come from the existing aid budget”. He meant to say “UK Fast Start climate finance, as Mr Gibb [holding answer 7 June 2010]: The Government the previous Government made clear, will come from are committed to retaining the education maintenance the aid budget.” allowance (EMA). The budget for 2010-11 is £564 million, enabling young people aged 16 to 19 in England who EDUCATION meet residency criteria and have a bank account to receive EMA payments if their household income is Education Maintenance Allowance under £30,810 (based on evidence from the last full financial year). John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has for the future of The Minister is writing to the hon. Member for education maintenance allowance payments. [871] Glasgow North West to explain this error and notify [Official Report, 14 June 2010, Vol. 511, c. 307W.] him of the correction.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 6 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 153 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— EU Enlargement ...... 166 continued Forced Labour (Brazil)...... 167 Nuclear Programme (Iran)...... 163 High Representative (Bosnia and Herzegovina) ..... 167 Settlement Expansion ...... 159 Human Rights and Democracy Programme Fund. 155 Topical Questions ...... 168 Kyrgyz Republic...... 156 Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 161 Luke Walker...... 161 UK-Zimbabwe Relations ...... 153 Middle East ...... 164 Work Programme (European Commission) ...... 162 National Election Commission (Rwanda) ...... 158 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 6 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 3WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 7WS Civil Service Compensation Scheme ...... 3WS DFID’s Programme in Nepal...... 7WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 4WS JUSTICE...... 7WS Local Government Reorganisation ...... 4WS Data Protection Legislative Framework...... 7WS Regional Strategies...... 4WS

EDUCATION...... 5WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 8WS Early Years Foundation Stage...... 5WS Billy Wright Inquiry...... 8WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 6WS TRANSPORT ...... 9WS European Parliament Transitionary Protocol...... 6WS Rolling Stock ...... 9WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 6 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 1P FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 2P Transfer of Post Office Facilities (Viewpark, St George’s Day (Public Holiday) ...... 2P North Lanarkshire) ...... 1P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 6 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 146W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Young Offenders: Prosecutions ...... 146W Video Games: North East...... 248W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 233W CABINET OFFICE...... 248W Business: Corruption ...... 234W Departmental Internet ...... 248W Business: Government Assistance ...... 234W Government Departments: Manpower ...... 249W Business Link...... 233W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Liverpool ...... 249W Business: West Midlands...... 235W Departmental Art Works ...... 235W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 135W Departmental Catering ...... 235W Affordable Housing: Lancashire ...... 135W Departmental Legislation ...... 236W Community Land Trusts...... 135W Departmental Manpower...... 236W Council Housing: Construction ...... 135W East of England Development Agency ...... 236W Departmental Official Photographs ...... 136W EU External Trade: Colombia and Peru ...... 241W Housing Benefit: Homlessness ...... 136W Further Education: Finance...... 241W Housing: Construction...... 136W Further Education: Greater London...... 244W Housing: Empty Property ...... 136W Graduates: Employment ...... 245W National Community Land Trust Network...... 137W Higher Education: Anti-Semitism...... 245W Property Development: Floods ...... 137W Mobile Phones: Health Hazards ...... 247W Social Rented Housing: Bishop Auckland...... 137W Rover Group ...... 247W Social Rented Housing: Standards...... 138W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— continued continued Travellers: Caravan Sites ...... 138W Departmental NDPBs...... 227W Departmental Official Photographs ...... 228W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 145W EU Budget ...... 225W Departmental NDPBs...... 145W Euro...... 228W Departmental Training ...... 145W Gibraltar: Equality ...... 228W Mobile Phones: Fees and Charges...... 145W Gulf of Mexico: Oil ...... 228W Radio: Digital Broadcasting...... 145W India and Pakistan: Nuclear Weapons ...... 229W Iraq: Christianity ...... 229W DEFENCE...... 152W Israel: Nuclear Weapons ...... 229W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 152W Manipur Province ...... 224W Army: Discharges ...... 153W Middle East ...... 225W Clyde Submarine Base ...... 155W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 230W Defence...... 156W National Budgets: EU...... 225W Departmental Catering ...... 156W Nuclear Programme: Iran ...... 225W Departmental NDPBs...... 157W Nuclear Test Ban: Treaties ...... 230W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 157W Pakistan: Counter-terrorism ...... 230W Departmental Travel ...... 157W Pakistan: Foreign Relations ...... 230W Guided Weapons...... 158W Palestinians: International Assistance ...... 231W NATO: Medals ...... 158W Russia: Trials...... 232W RAF St Athan ...... 158W United Nations Reform ...... 226W Trident Missiles...... 159W USA: Passports...... 233W Turkey: Military Bases ...... 159W Weapons ...... 159W HEALTH...... 177W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 250W Arthritis: Health Services...... 177W Absent Voting: Fraud...... 250W Complementary Medicine: Expenditure...... 177W Food: Fat and Salt ...... 178W Health Hazards: Radon Gas ...... 178W EDUCATION...... 187W Health Services ...... 178W Academies: Coventry ...... 187W Health Services: Standards...... 178W Academies: GCSE...... 187W Homeopathy: Expenditure ...... 179W Children: Carers...... 190W James Paget University Hospitals NHS Children in Care...... 190W Foundation Trust...... 179W Education: Finance...... 190W Muscular Dystrophy: Social Services ...... 180W GCSE: Leicester...... 192W NHS: Standards...... 181W Home Education...... 191W Patient Choice Schemes ...... 181W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 191W Primary Care Trusts: Finance ...... 181W Schools: Bury...... 191W Strategic Health Authorities: Translation Services . 181W Schools: Crimes of Violence ...... 192W Strokes: Health Services...... 182W Schools: Finance...... 193W Strokes: Health Services and Education...... 182W Schools: Standards...... 193W Secondary Education: Admissions...... 193W Specialised Diplomas ...... 193W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 194W Teachers: Training...... 194W Andrei Lugovoi...... 194W Animals: Experiments...... 194W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 144W Anti-Semitism...... 195W Electoral Systems: Referendums ...... 144W Asylum: Domestic Violence ...... 195W British Nationality: War Crimes...... 195W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 146W Child Exploitation and Online Protection Agency . 196W Boilers: Government Assistance...... 146W Departmental Human Resources ...... 196W Carbon Emissions...... 146W Departmental Manpower...... 196W Departmental Lost Property ...... 147W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 197W Departmental NDPBs...... 147W Departmental NDPBs...... 197W Electricity Generation: Planning Permission...... 148W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 201W Green Investment Bank ...... 148W Deportation: Somalia...... 202W Housing: Insulation ...... 148W Domestic Violence: Immigrants ...... 202W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 149W Entry Clearances...... 202W Wind Power ...... 149W Entry Clearances: Married People ...... 203W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 203W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Leicestershire Constabulary: Finance...... 204W AFFAIRS...... 141W Passports: Lost Property...... 204W Departmental Conferences...... 141W Police: Bureaucracy...... 205W Floods: North East ...... 141W Police Community Support Officer: Redundancy .. 205W Whales: Conservation ...... 142W Police: Conditions of Employment ...... 205W Woodland ...... 143W Police: Finance...... 206W Police: Retirement ...... 206W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 224W Pre-charge Detention ...... 206W British Citizens: Greece...... 226W Rape: Convictions...... 207W Departmental Conferences...... 226W Surveillance: Finance ...... 207W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 226W Terrorism: Convictions...... 208W Col. No. Col. No. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 150W TRANSPORT—continued Air Conditioning Facilities...... 150W Departmental NDPBs...... 139W Departmental Security ...... 150W Departmental Reviews ...... 140W Intercity Express ...... 140W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 208W Merchant Shipping: Registration ...... 140W Afghanistan: Females...... 208W River Wear: Bridges ...... 140W Developing Countries: Forests ...... 209W Road Traffic: Greater Manchester...... 140W Developing Countries: Health Services ...... 209W Roads: Lighting ...... 141W Developing Countries: Maternity Services ...... 210W South East Airports Task Force...... 141W Developing Countries: Overseas Aid...... 210W International Assistance: Poverty and Hunger ...... 210W TREASURY ...... 182W Overseas Aid...... 211W Banks: Finance ...... 182W Business: Insolvency ...... 182W JUSTICE...... 159W Child Benefit...... 182W Care Proceedings ...... 160W Child Care Tax Credit...... 183W Corruption: Public service ...... 161W Departmental Lost Property ...... 183W Council of Europe Prisoner Transfer Convention.. 161W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 184W Courts: Closures ...... 162W Housing: Rents ...... 184W Departmental Equality ...... 163W Pregnant Women: Grants...... 185W Driving Offences: Fines...... 163W Revenue and Customs: Telephone Numbers ...... 185W Driving Offences: Mobile Phones...... 164W VAT: Audio Recordings ...... 185W Legal Aid ...... 159W Welfare Tax Credits...... 186W Magistrates’ Courts: Bradford ...... 165W Welfare Tax Credits: Motherwell ...... 186W Magistrates Courts: Greater London ...... 166W National Offender Management Service ...... 167W WALES...... 144W National Offender Management Service: Finance.. 168W Bosch: Location ...... 144W National Offender Management Service: Manpower ...... 169W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 211W Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 169W Departmental Consultants...... 211W Offenders: Rehabilitation ...... 169W Departmental Official Cars...... 211W Prison Sentences ...... 170W Departmental Pay ...... 211W Prison Service: Contracts ...... 174W Disability Living Allowance: Children ...... 212W Prison Service: Retirement ...... 175W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 212W Prisons: Drugs ...... 176W Floors: Safety...... 213W Probation ...... 176W Future Jobs Fund...... 213W Young Offenders ...... 176W Homelessness...... 214W Young Offenders: Special Educational Needs ...... 177W Housing Benefit ...... 214W Housing Benefit: Liverpool...... 214W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 233W Incapacity Benefit ...... 215W Departmental Official Cars...... 233W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Bishop Auckland...... 215W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Lone Parents ...... 215W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 135W Lone Parents: Lancashire...... 216W Departmental Official Cars ...... 135W Mesothelioma: Deaths ...... 217W New Deal Schemes: Birmingham...... 217W SCOTLAND...... 143W Pensions: Shipping...... 218W Departmental Conferences...... 143W Pregnant Women: Grants...... 218W Departmental Lost Property ...... 144W Retirement ...... 218W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 219W TRANSPORT ...... 138W Vacancies: Sex Establishments ...... 223W Bus services...... 138W Work Capability Assessment: Mental Illness...... 223W Bus Services: Leeds ...... 139W Work Capability Assessment: Wigan...... 224W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 6 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 1MC INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1MC Education Maintenance Allowance...... 1MC Global Poverty...... 1MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 13 July 2010

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 6 July 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 153] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Treatment of Detainees [Col. 175] Statement—(Prime Minister)

Finance Bill [Col. 194] Motion for Second Reading—(Danny Alexander)—on a Division, agreed to

Petition [Col. 342]

Llanishen Reservoir [Col. 344] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Terrorism (Northern Ireland) [Col. 1WH] DNA and CCTV (Crime Prevention) [Col. 22WH] Child Health (Nottingham) [Col. 46WH] Newark Hospital [Col. 54WH] Community Policing [Col. 61WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 3WS]

Petitions [Col. 1P] Observations Remaining bagged petition to be bagged next sitting day

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 135W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 1MC]