House of Commons CANADA

Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

CHPC ● NUMBER 004 ● 1st SESSION ● 39th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, May 30, 2006

Chair

Mr. Gary Schellenberger Also available on the Parliament of Canada Web Site at the following address: http://www.parl.gc.ca 1

Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

Tuesday, May 30, 2006

● (1535) important single instrument for stimulating and strengthening the [English] creation, production, and dissemination of the arts in Canada. The Chair (Mr. Gary Schellenberger (Perth—Wellington, CPC)): I see a quorum. Despite the profile of my recent work at the National Ballet School, the majority of my working life has been spent in the public I welcome everyone to our meeting of the Standing Committee on service. For five of those years, I worked as a senior advisor in Canadian Heritage. Ontario's first ministry of culture, and for 10 years I held management positions in the Ontario Arts Council. There are a couple of things I'd like to bring to your attention before we speak to Mr. Sirman. First of all, I remind the committee [Translation] that the Honourable Bev Oda, Minister of Canadian Heritage, has confirmed that she will appear before the committee on Thursday, June 1, from 3:30 to 4:30. During this time, I had the opportunity to work very closely with counterparts in other jurisdictions across Canada, including Quebec. Today we are pleased to welcome Mr. Robert Sirman to review his certificate of nomination to the position of director of the Canada [English] Council for the Arts. I'd like to remind the committee of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, which outlines the range of the I have long had a special interest in arts funding. In 1986 I was committee's review: fortunate enough to undertake an independent study tour of England The scope of a committee’s examination of Order-in-Council appointees or and Wales under the auspices of the British Council. The purpose of nominees is strictly limited to the qualifications and competence to perform the this tour was to study the funding practices of the Arts Council of duties of the post. Questioning by members of the committee may be interrupted Great Britain, the organization upon which the Canada Council was by the Chair, if it attempts to deal with matters considered irrelevant to the committee’s inquiry.... Any question may be permitted if it can be shown that it modelled when it was established in 1957. relates directly to the appointee’s or nominee’s ability to do the job. [Translation] We'll be following the order of questions adopted during our second meeting. As such, I will call upon Mr. Sirman to make a 10- In 1989 and 1990, I spent five months in France, including three minute opening statement, if he chooses. months as an intern in the French Ministry of Culture and Welcome to the committee, sir. Communications in Paris. I was specifically stationed in the Ministry's research department, where I had the privilege of studying Mr. Robert Sirman (As an Individual): Thank you. the latest research on the relationship between funding and cultural Mr. Chairman, members of the standing committee, practices in both France and the other nations of the European Union. [Translation] may I begin by expressing my sincere thanks for allowing me to In 1991, I took what I expected to be a short break from public delay my appearance before you until today. You will know that I service and joined Canada's National Ballet School. I was not trained was originally asked to appear before this Committee two weeks in dance—my formal education was in the social sciences—but I ago, but as fate would have it, I was already scheduled on that day to was intrigued by the challenge the School presented, being at the host over 200 senior donors and government funders at an opening time in very serious financial difficulty. The School's professional gala at the National Ballet School. It would have been impossible for attraction proved greater than I anticipated, and I have been there me to be in Ottawa without compromising my responsibilities to my now for over 15 years. employer, and I am grateful that my appearance could be rescheduled. After stabilizing the School's finances—in large part by reinfor- [English] cing its national identity and diversifying its revenues—I turned my attention to the deplorable state of its facilities. The result was a I am greatly honoured to be nominated as director of the Canada 100 million dollar capital expansion program called Projet Grand Council for the Arts. The Canada Council, without doubt, is the most Jeté. 2 CHPC-04 May 30, 2006

[English] Mr. Belanger, you have the first question. As of today, we surpassed the 90% mark on both fundraising and [Translation] construction, and the new facilities have been met with both popular and critical acclaim. The project won an architectural excellence Hon. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. award at the Ontario Association of Architects annual conference Chairman. held two weeks ago in Ottawa. Also, on June 5, I will receive a national leadership award from the Canadian Urban Institute for my Welcome, Mr. Sirman. work in using the project to build community. I have a rather generic question to ask you, after which, if time For some time now, I have made a conscious effort to broaden allows, I will put to you a series of more specific questions. community involvement beyond my immediate employer. For many Otherwise, I would hope to come back to you in a second round. years, I chaired the boards of a small dance company in Toronto and a social service agency in the neighbourhood in which the National First of all, could you, in French please, outline for me your vision Ballet School is located. I have also served for many years on the for your personal future and your vision for the future of the Canada advisory council for the Co-operative Program in Arts Management Council of the Arts over the next five to ten years? at the University of Toronto at Scarborough. Not surprisingly, I have served on many juries for national, Mr. Robert Sirman: That is a good question, Mr. Bélanger. provincial, and municipal grant-giving programs. For me, it is the opportunity to lead, to stimulate the Canada In recent years, I have also acted as a mentor and facilitator for a Council of the Arts staff, to work with the arts sector, with the artists number of arts groups, including a national aboriginal theatre school, and the arts organizations of Canada, to visit the communities, the a dance action committee in British Columbia, a Calgary dance regions, the villages, all of the places where artists are creating in company, and a cooperative venture by the Canadian Dance Canada. It is also an opportunity to offer a vision of culture by giving Assembly and the Regroupement québécois de la danse in Montreal. the citizens of Canada the means to establish links between I am also on the board of a public foundation, the George Cedric communities. Metcalf Charitable Foundation, which funds the performing arts, community development, and the environment. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Thank you. It is this combination of both breadth and depth of experience that [English] I presented to the selection committee for the position of director of the Canada Council for the Arts, and which I present to you today. This is not a criticism directed at your qualifications—please, au contraire—but there have been people wondering if your nomina- ● (1540) tion would perhaps cause déséquilibre, or too high a concentration. [Translation] As you well know, the Canada Council's mandate is to foster and My understanding from Madam Kain is that she is from the dance promote the study and enjoyment of, and the production of works in, world. Is that correct? the arts. As it approaches its 50th anniversary, it is only natural that Mr. Robert Sirman: Yes, she is. the Canada Council turn its attention to the future, to considering what the role of the arts will be in the lives of Canadians for the next Hon. Mauril Bélanger: I believe the vice-chair of the council, 50 years, and how public funding can invigorate and energize that Monsieur Simon Brault, is as well. Is that correct? future. [English] Mr. Robert Sirman: The vice-chair is not from the dance world. He's from the theatre world, I understand. The circumstances facing artists in Canada today are very different from those in 1957. So too are the challenges facing Hon. Mauril Bélanger: The theatre world, okay. public funding bodies. I am convinced that the Canada Council for the Arts can play a significant role in shaping Canadian culture for And you are from the dance world, or you have been for the last the next 50 years, as it has in the past, but it cannot do this alone. It 15 years. will need to work closely with politicians, other funding bodies, the private sector, provincial and municipal levels of government, the ● (1545) arts sector, and of course the citizenry that makes up Canada itself. I Mr. Robert Sirman: For the last 15 years I have led, am excited by the prospect of helping to lead and inspire this historic administratively, a national training institution. It happens that this process of collaborative transition, and today I respectfully present to national training institution trains in dance, but that's not my you my candidacy for the position of director of the Canada Council specialty. Nevertheless, it's true that it is in the dance world. for the Arts. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: What answer would you offer to those Thank you. Merci. who are concerned that there may be a bit of a concentration at the The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Sirman. top in one particular field of endeavour as compared with the others? May 30, 2006 CHPC-04 3

Mr. Robert Sirman: If I may, the answer, I hope, is my to go to the board, and the board in turn had to recommend it to the experience. I worked for ten years at the Ontario Arts Council for no Department of Canadian Heritage. particular discipline. I worked in management for all disciplines. I was director of operations for most of that time, and also director of The process went on until...it's here. research and strategic policy for the last year and a half. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Thank you. During that time, I tried to seriously address the need for a balance Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, CPC): Mr. Chairman, between the investments in different art forms, the investments in if it would be of value, it will only take one minute to give a different regions of the province of Ontario, and the strategies for complete answer to Mr. Bélanger, as I have it, relative to the process. addressing what we called in those days the “supply side” and the The position was advertised in the Canada Gazette and in various “demand side” for arts in Ontario. national newspapers, with a closing date of December 9, 2005. Forty-five applications were received. Thirteen applications were I do not believe my experiential base—at the Ontario Arts interviewed by a search firm. Six candidates were interviewed by a Council, at the Ontario culture ministry, at the arts administration selection committee. Three qualified candidates were chosen from program at the University of Toronto—is in any specific field other that, and the selection committee unanimously decided on Mr. than trying to lead and pull together the various forces that contribute Sirman as the most qualified for the job. to an effective cultural organization, an effective cultural infra- structure, whether in a particular discipline or in a community as a ● (1550) whole. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Thank you. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This question may or may not be appropriate, Mr. Chairman—I'm The Chair: Thank you. sure you'll tell me if it isn't—because it doesn't pertain to Mr. Sirman Monsieur Kotto. himself. It pertains to the process that got his nomination in front of us. [Translation] Mr. Maka Kotto (Saint-Lambert, BQ): Thank you, Mr. I'd be curious if you, Mr. Sirman—or someone else, for that Chairman. matter—could explain to me the process by which the various nominees were sought out and the process by which they were Good afternoon, sir, and thank you for being here. I will be putting screened. Would you happen to know what that process was? to you a few simple questions, and I would ask for simple answers, Mr. Robert Sirman: I can speak from my own experience, if that nothing too involved. I have gone over your curriculum vitae, and I would be helpful to you. see the path you have followed and your involvement in finance, management and structures. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Yes. Mr. Robert Sirman: In the fall of 2005 I was approached by an What is your relationship to creators per se? HR firm—what we call “headhunting” firms, in my business— Mr. Robert Sirman: That is another good question. I have had asking me if I would be prepared to compete in a competition for two opportunities, in the context of the experience I have had, to deal director of the Canada Council for the Arts. It was awkward timing with creative arts. In 1980, I took five months off to write a play. for me, because I was about to open the new National Ballet School This experience was for me very important and very nerve-wracking, in Toronto, but I did go through an interview. I did not actually as you will understand. I finished the play, I had the opportunity to submit my full curriculum vitae until December. distribute it to theatres in the United States and Canada and I received very positive responses, but I decided to return to my job at In December I was told by the outside firm that I was one of a the Ontario Arts Council. series of candidates that the selection committee wished to interview. The selection committee—when I actually went—was made up of I got my start in 1995, but in 2002, I was the librettist for a ballet four board members of the Canada Council for the Arts, plus an of the National Ballet School, which was celebrating its fifth outside member, former Auditor General of Canada Denis Desautels. anniversary. The ballet was called The contract, and it was a full- I was introduced to these people in my first interview, the first week length story ballet. of January, in Ottawa. [English] A day or two later I got a telephone call that the pool had shrunk, The ballet was performed in Ottawa and in New York, at the but there was still a pool and I was still in it. I was told that I would Brooklyn Academy of Music, as well as its run in Toronto. be called for a subsequent follow-up interview. That interview took [Translation] place the last week of January, in Toronto. My understanding is that they were meeting other people in Toronto and possibly other parts For me, these two experiences were truly in the field of creative of the country, although I don't know that. arts. I was subsequently contacted and told that I was the candidate that Mr. Maka Kotto: Have you been in touch with or met the team the selection committee wished to present to the board of the Canada that is in place at the Canada Council for the Arts? Council for their consideration. From that moment—and I was not Mr. Robert Sirman: Only to introduce myself to those people, an insider in that process, but this is from what I understand—it had but not to work. 4 CHPC-04 May 30, 2006

Mr. Maka Kotto: That was the point of my question. minutes. I've gone over five minutes, but when things are working and you're into it.... Do you have any children? Mr. Robert Sirman: No. It's Mr. Angus's turn right now. Mr. Maka Kotto: Are you aware of your mandate? Have you been given a precise mandate? Mr. Charlie Angus (Timmins—James Bay, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Sirman, for coming before us today. I Mr. Robert Sirman: Not yet. read your background, and I'm very pleased that you put forth your Mr. Maka Kotto: You therefore have not yet been given precise name for the Canada Council. duties relating to the position that awaits you. Mr. Robert Sirman: There was a job description in the I'd like to say at the outset that in 1994 I received a Canada advertisements, but I have not yet met with the board of directors. Council explorations grant as an emerging artist for my first book. I have not yet received any mandate from the minister. I'm now on my fifth book. I'm not saying that to brag, but to Mr. Maka Kotto: Very well. establish the point of the importance of taking a chance on emerging artists, because each of those books sold very well and helped In the 2004-2005 annual report, Mr. John Hobday, your establish a career that, quite frankly, couldn't have gotten off the predecessor as CCA Director, wrote in his introduction to the report: ground without the support of the Canada Council. Many arts organizations, large and small, are finding it difficult to sustain themselves. The proportion of revenue of major arts organizations that comes My concern is the ability of the Canada Council to maintain that from the Council has decreased dramatically—from 23 to 7%. A diminishing percentage of artists is able to count on support from the Council and other kind of outreach to emerging artists because of the growing pressures funding bodies. of the numerous applications that are coming forward and the limited budget. What role do you see in terms of ensuring that emerging Do you share Mr. Hobday's opinion? artists, those who haven't managed to establish the necessary track Mr. Robert Sirman: I believe that this opinion is factual, that it is record that the larger organizations or established artists have, will based on statistics, but I do not know what the Canada Council for still be able to be heard at the Canada Council level? the Arts will do in the future with its extra income. ● (1555) Mr. Robert Sirman: It's an excellent question, but it's a bit awkward for me to answer because I'm not there yet, and I haven't Mr. Maka Kotto: As you are aware, 50 million dollars have been really been briefed on what the dynamics are in determining how— granted over two years, on top of the one hundred and fifty some million dollars, but this will not be a recurring allocation. The Mr. Charlie Angus: I'm just asking for your vision, for how you Council will therefore be moving back to a budget that has for some see that. time now been limited. Mr. Robert Sirman: Yes, I know. ● (1600) Mr. Maka Kotto: You have heard talk of coalitions in Canada Mr. Robert Sirman: There's no question in my mind that there and in Quebec because of a lack of money. Demand is growing and has to be a priority placed on new creativity, new artists, new players everyone's share of the money available is becoming ever smaller. on the scene, just as there has to be on artists and arts organizations What do you plan on doing with regard to this reality? and art forms that have established a track record. It's impossible to trade these two things off in my mind and only fund one and not the Mr. Robert Sirman: This is a very serious challenge for me and other. However, the mechanisms for doing this are challenging in for the Canada Council for the Arts, but I believe that the CCA must any arts funding body. I have 15 years' experience, as you've heard, set its priorities so as to use this increase to grant monies to artists in granting specifically in the arts, and I know that during all of that and artistic organizations and show the public and the government of time this was a constant debate, a debate that engaged not only the Canada the results of this investment. funding bodies, but also the artists themselves, who were constantly Mr. Maka Kotto: Such a demonstration will take years. trying to figure out how to make room for new voices in their own Mr. Robert Sirman: Yes, but I am very much aware of the fact art forms. I don't feel that I'm really able to commit myself any more that 50 million dollars is a lot of money. It is however true that than that and say that I don't think this is a trade-off. These are both 20 million dollars, namely the increase for the first year, amounts to priorities for any funding body in the country. only 60 cents per person in Canada. That is not exactly a huge investment, but it nevertheless is a significant one for our country's Mr. Charlie Angus: In your previous experience you would have, artists. I suppose, dealt with funding applications for the Canada Council as well as for the Ontario Arts Council. Would that be correct? Mr. Maka Kotto: That is not what we have heard in Quebec. I have one final question. Mr. Robert Sirman: I'm not sure what you mean by saying that in my previous experience I would have dealt with funding. [English] The Chair: We'll have to move on right now. You'll have another Mr. Charlie Angus: Through ballet and through theatre you opportunity a little later. I've been very liberal. It's been almost seven would have received Canada Council funding? May 30, 2006 CHPC-04 5

Mr. Robert Sirman: The National Ballet School for the first four strikes me as being a very desirable and positive direction for the years that I worked there received money from the Canada Council, organization to engage in going forward. but in 1995, my fourth year there, the responsibility for the National Ballet School transferred from the Canada Council to the Depart- It doesn't address your question singularly, but I'm hoping it ment of Canadian Heritage. So for the last 11 years I have had no addresses the idea that the organization should be trying to find funding relationship with the Canada Council whatsoever. strategies for leveraging more activity in society as a whole, or in the Mr. Charlie Angus: You worked with the Ontario Arts Council. sector as a whole, and not simply seeing itself as the only player. Mr. Robert Sirman: Yes, I did. I was on a number of juries with Mr. Charlie Angus: Thank you, Mr. Chair. the Ontario Arts Council, and it was a very efficient process. I would like to put on the record that I'm very pleased that our Mr. Charlie Angus: I know you can't say what you haven't process has involved a search firm and that the representation that is overseen yet, but I'm trying to get a sense of it. Have you looked at being brought to us and the candidates who are being brought to us the review process, the mandate process of the Canada Council, and speak very much to the call we put out from this committee in the how it is approving grants? Do you have a sense that it's working last Parliament and in this Parliament. well? Does it need to be improved? Are there areas when you go in there that you think you're going to be looking at? The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Angus. Mr. Robert Sirman: I have not identified problem areas, if I can put it that way. Every conversation I've had to date with artists in the Mr. Fast. community and with people who have worked in the sector has Mr. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. reinforced that the Canada Council has an extraordinary record in the peer assessment process. My experience in the Ontario Arts Council I also wanted to thank Mr. Sirman for attending. Given the fact validated that, because we were very much based on the model of the that he's going to be supervising the distribution of resources to Canada Council when the Ontario Arts Council was established in many artists throughout Canada, I think it behooves us to become 1963. There was no question that the issue of the mandate of the familiar with him and to develop a relationship with him. Canada Council is something that's supra council. It's really a government issue. As with any changing of the guard, there are going to be some The mandate of the Canada Council is set out in legislation, as you concerns. Is there going to be a major change of direction? know, and I am sure that during my time there will be discussion on Stakeholders obviously want to know. You've indicated in your this subject, but it will not be driven by the Canada Council as being answers to Mr. Angus that you don't sense, at this point in time, that an issue. We are there to fulfill the mandate of the legislation given there is a major change of direction. Am I correct in assuming that? to us by Parliament. Or is there perhaps a change of direction that you can foresee coming down the line? ● (1605) Mr. Robert Sirman: Again, these are very telling questions, Mr. Charlie Angus: Again, I'm asking all hypothetical questions because it's impossible at this moment for me to know whether there because I'm trying to get a sense of your vision for the arts. There are will be a change of direction. a great number of funding requests coming to the Canada Council, and they're coming from very divergent disciplines, and some of I think I was trying to indicate to Mr. Angus that there is not any those disciplines are very costly. Theatre costs a lot more than an specific part of the Canada Council's work that I see requiring, at this individual art project when you take a theatre tour across western moment, a reorientation or a redistribution of resources. However, I Canada. don't believe this is an issue of policy. I believe this is an issue of When you look at the overall view of the Canada Council—of philosophy, so I'm prepared to stick my neck out here. course, we should ask for more funding in every element, but we aren't going to be there today—are there areas that you think need to I believe that the world today is different from the world of 50 be addressed? Are there areas that you see in terms of a certain years ago, when the Canada Council was founded. If the Canada discipline that may be falling through the cracks, whether it's Council and the policies of public funding in the arts are to succeed aboriginal theatre or writing? On a global perspective, and I'm not for the next 50 years, we will probably have to evolve and shift asking you to commit to changing, but I'm just asking from what priorities going forward. This suggests to me that we are not going to you've seen.... You obviously must have studied the Canada Council just toe the line and hold the course endlessly year over year. before you came forward. My dilemma and my challenge is to figure out exactly what that Mr. Robert Sirman: There is no specific area that I am seeing as evolution will look like and who the players should be in helping to a priority for shifting money within the Canada Council at this shape the direction for the future. I believe that the next 50 years of particular moment. What I'm very conscious of is that although the the Canada Council should be as significant as the past 50 years. But Canada Council is, in my opinion, the most important instrument for they will not be if the Canada Council just does more of the same. stimulating the creation, production, and dissemination of the arts, it is not the only instrument. The growing proactive work of the Mr. Ed Fast: I'm pleased to hear that you're comfortable with Canada Council in recent years in trying to establish closer adaptation. I think we need that. You're absolutely correct; our partnerships with other funding bodies, with other sectors of society, environment is changing rapidly. 6 CHPC-04 May 30, 2006

One of the innovations you thought might be brought to bear is time—but could you give me some insight as to where you would greater leveraging of resources. That's a statement you've made. Can like to go with this issue? you show one or two examples, from your experience with some of the other arts groups you've worked for or with, of where that has been done? Your experience is in Europe, I understand. Is that correct? Mr. Robert Sirman: Well, I definitely can speak to my experience at the National Ballet School. At the National Ballet Mr. Robert Sirman: Is my experience in Europe? No, my School, when I joined the organization, we were far more dependent experience is in Canada. and reliant on government funding than we are today. The interesting thing, though, is that the government funding has actually increased. Mr. Scott Simms: Okay, but you have worked with European The quantum has increased, but the percentage of the organization's agencies. Is that right? budget has decreased.

I think what's happening is that the artistic milieu is getting larger Mr. Robert Sirman: Yes, I have. and larger—the number of people who are in the sector, the number of organizations—and they are having to reach out to new partners beyond the traditional funders. Mr. Scott Simms: Maybe you could use them as an example; I don't know. In my organization, the National Ballet School—the one I've been most familiar with for the last 15 years—this meant launching business ventures, for example. This meant taking more seriously the But I'll get to the gist of it, which is basically that the problem we establishment of a foundation, a private foundation, which I have in smaller communities is a lack of capital funding available established as a parallel foundation to the organization, to hold through private means, we'll say. The problem becomes not so much endowed funds. It meant seriously considering the earned revenues the money to help generate a particular project to get it off the of the organization, not just passively looking at them but actually ground, but the operational money that is involved. trying to analyze what other sources of revenue there might be to leverage the public funding I was receiving, which was growing, and make it a smaller percentage of the overall budget. I could actually I personally think there is a way for the government to get more grow faster than my government funding. involved than it has been with the arts community. The example I speak of is this. There is a town called English Harbour. There is a This is an example of the kind of leveraging activity that I believe church in the small fishing village, which is pretty much a ghost is happening in society as a whole. No single funder is forcing it on town, given that the fishing industry has gone downhill. Two artists the scene, but organizations in the community are recognizing the from Toronto bought this church, over 110 years old, refurbished it, need to explore broadening—if I can use this word without being and are turning it into a school for artists. It's a fantastic idea. pejorative—the business base of running an arts organization in this country. Where do you see the role of the council in helping provide some I don't use it as a big-B business case. But making sure that these operational money for this type of operation—not for that specific organizations are run responsibly, have balanced budgets, can meet example, but for an example like that in a smaller community? their artistic mandates, make connections with the communities they're trying to serve, do actual audience development—by trying to expand to new markets, for example—and orienting the ● (1615) organizations towards the changing demographics of Canadian society are strategies to allow the public funding to leverage more Mr. Robert Sirman: I am going to try to speak to two issues. activity without itself being the sole determinant of the future course of the organization. ● (1610) There is the example you've used. The Canada Council wouldn't The Chair: Thank you. primarily be engaged in a training environment, as I understand it. However, the Canada Council is very present in smaller commu- Mr. Simms. nities in Canada. You probably know that the grants last year were distributed in more than 560 communities in Canada. My under- Mr. Scott Simms (Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Wind- standing is that the Public Lending Right Commission actually sor, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. distributes cheques to writers in more than 1,500 communities in It's a fitting day for me, because I received correspondence just a Canada. short time ago about a proposal for a particular project in my home province of Newfoundland and Labrador. But it leads into a bigger question about this. So the Canada Council is definitely present wherever professional arts activity is going on. The Canada Council does not discriminate I'm not looking for how you're going to enact this, or a vision in between small communities and large communities. What it's trying this particular role—I certainly appreciate where you are at this to track is the evolution of professional arts practice in the country. May 30, 2006 CHPC-04 7

Beyond that, I am drawn into a debate about the Canada Council's [English] practices, which I am really not in a position to defend or explain. But I do know that the criterion is not the size of the community; it is It would be impossible for me to pretend that I understand where the presence of professional activity that has an audience, that has a it's going for the next 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, but it is not the community it's relating to, that is providing value in that community. same, and it is not going in the same direction that it went in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. Mr. Scott Simms: Does size matter? Pardon the expression. I'm talking about the size of your audience. In particular, this was one of the strongest findings when I was in the research division of the French Ministry of Culture and I'm glad to hear that you don't discriminate on the basis of the size Communications in 1990. It was absolutely clear that no one in of a particular community. I would like to see a more active role. the 1980s had predicted the enormous impact on cultural consump- Anything that goes on in smaller communities like these is usually tion practices in Europe that the new technologies had introduced. under the guise of economic development, when in fact it should No one was prepared for it, and it had a radical change in the way also be under the guise of artistic expression in the far reaches, we'll that people consumed art or the way that audiences chose, through say. I hope you see that as a sincere expression as well, and that the their discretionary spending, the arts they wished to attend or Canadian government should be more involved in this type of affair consume. under the council as well. [Translation] Mr. Robert Sirman: I'll certainly take it under advisement and be Mr. Luc Malo: Concretely, what roles should you and the Canada conscious of it as I assume these new responsibilities. Council for the Arts play in this evolution and in these changes, in this a period of turbulence? Mr. Scott Simms: In your experience in dealing with European countries, what do they do in similar situations? I don't know, so I [English] apologize. Mr. Robert Sirman: We have to stay with the change. Mr. Robert Sirman: That's a big question. The major challenge ● (1620) here is that the European countries we're most familiar with, the [Translation] western European countries, make a major public investment in arts practice that far exceeds the investment from any other part of the We must deal with change. The CCA has over the last 50 years economy. For example, it would be perfectly normal for a theatre established new offices, for the media arts and interdisciplinary art. I company, a dance company, a symphony, an orchestra to be totally believe that in the future there will be further changes that will be funded by government in a European context, which is not the model just as important but that I cannot predict today. we use in Canada and certainly not one we're familiar with in North Mr. Luc Malo: Do you believe that with the emergence of these America at all. It's hard for me to draw a relationship there. technologies, artists' needs in their creative work might increase over time in order to maintain the same quality in delivery of culture and Mr. Scott Simms: Okay. I only wanted to hear your concerns the arts? about this one, especially when it comes to outside the centre, as we say. Mr. Robert Sirman: I do not really know. Mr. Luc Malo: You seemed to be saying earlier that the Thank you. 50 million dollars on the table now, the new monies, would be The Chair: Mr. Malo. sufficient. Is that still your view despite the challenges that you seem to be outlining for the years to come? [Translation] Mr. Robert Sirman: I believe that these 50 million dollars are an Mr. Luc Malo (Verchères—Les Patriotes, BQ): Good afternoon expression of the trust the government places in the Canada Council and welcome. Mr. Sirman. for the Arts and in the artists of Canada. I believe that the government mentioned in its first budget that it would not increase During your exchange with Mr. Fast, you inferred that the way in funding outside of its five priorities. which arts and cultural practice over time must evolve and that the [English] relationship between the state and artists must also change. The $50 million came as a surprise I think because it's not Could you indicate to us how these changes might take place contained within the five priorities, and it behooves the Canada concretely? Council for the Arts to spend the money wisely and to demonstrate Mr. Robert Sirman: I will try to answer your question. to the people of Canada why even more investment would help to improve the quality of life in this country. It would help improve the Technology has really changed the circumstances in which artists relationship, the building of community, the investment in the create and communicate with present day society. An artist today quality of experience that we believe the arts give society. does not face the same challenges as those he or she might have The Chair: Mr. Fast. faced in 1957. The various challenges have indeed changed. I cannot Mr. Ed Fast: Thank you, Mr. Chair. say exactly if relations between the government and artists have changed, but the circumstances in which these relations have I'd like to turn the discussion a little bit towards leadership style. I developed have most certainly changed. have perhaps one question and then one request. 8 CHPC-04 May 30, 2006

First of all, have you familiarized yourself with the leadership The Chair: We will go to the next round, and I think this will be styles of your predecessor, or perhaps predecessors? the last round, and then I would like to have a comment or two as chair, if I may. Secondly, could you comment on your leadership style? I'm not asking for categorical references such as collaborative or author- Mr. Bélanger. itative. I'm not sure those are helpful. I'd like a little more far-ranging idea of how you would lead your team. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: I must say, Mr. Chairman, I think Liberal Mr. Robert Sirman: I have not formally studied the leadership becomes you. styles of my predecessors, but I am familiar with my predecessors and I have a sense of how they led and how they contributed to the I'm very glad, Mr. Sirman, that in your answer to leadership style evolution and development and success of the Canada Council for you didn't make any reference to the hub-and-spoke method. the past 50 years. I believe my own skills and my own predisposition from a In the final analysis—and I'm not a linguist—I would say that if leadership perspective is very much one that favours what I call non- you were running for the Liberal leadership right now, you'd directive leadership. It is often more time-consuming as a leadership probably be a borderline pass in terms of your ability in the other style, but it does contribute to progressive, inclusive responses to official language of the country. So has this come up during your changing circumstances. interviews and during your final recommendations? If so, how are you proposing to improve, if I may say, your command of the other As opposed to trying to pull the organization as a leader, I hope I official language of the country? can invest in the organization and the organization will help to push me, as a leader, forward. It's a push-and-pull analogy here. Mr. Robert Sirman: It definitely came up in my discussion as part of the process itself, and I've made a full commitment to the I am the kind of leader who believes strongly in investing in board of the Canada Council for the Arts and to the minister that (a) I teams, who believes strongly in encouraging, rewarding, and will move to Ottawa— stimulating the highest possible performance in the people around me. This is a style in which you are trying constantly to recruit Hon. Mauril Bélanger: That's a plus already for you, I might say. people better than you, and this is a style that, because of that, I can give you the names of a few real estate agents if you want. requires a certain suppression of ego and a certain confidence in the bigger vision or the bigger challenge that you're trying to help the Mr. Robert Sirman: I have done this. I have now put in an offer organization to address going forward. on an apartment that has been accepted and is conditional on my confirmation in this position. I hope to close on August 2, and this ● (1625) means that I will be a full-time resident of Ottawa. I think this will Mr. Ed Fast: I'm assuming that would be reflected in the give me an opportunity to be in a bilingual environment, which is comments of those you've worked with in the past 15 years at the not my experience for the last 16 years. National Ballet School. Mr. Robert Sirman: Yes, this is a style that I used very much I know that in the very few hours that I've been in Ottawa in the there, and it was a successful style. I call it “working under the last month, it is amazing how more comfortable you feel in a radar”, because you try not be the star yourself. You try constantly to bilingual environment when you're actually surrounded by others come in, perhaps under the visibility of the people immediately who are relaxed and at ease and using their language skills on a watching, but the organization constantly achieves outcomes that regular basis. I feel rusty and awkward, but I am also committed and observers are surprised by, and eventually they say, “How did it get confident, and I feel that I will be able, within a very short period of here?”, and they realize there has to be leadership in an organization time, to demonstrate an ease that I do not yet have. of this kind. ● (1630) Mr. Ed Fast: Have you been able to provide the kind of leadership that involves empowerment? I think you are discussing Hon. Mauril Bélanger: I recognize that you see it's an important empowerment right now, but in terms of empowering some of those matter. at work under you to move on to greater leadership roles, can you give us a couple of examples, without naming names, of course? I have a final question. I remember a few incidents where I was Mr. Robert Sirman: I like to think that I play a mentorship role sitting on that side, and the people on this side—here and in the not only in my own organization, but in the community as a whole. I House—were severely critical of some of the decisions of the tried to address this in my opening statements, that I do volunteer a Canada Council for the Arts in terms of its funding and some of the certain amount of time in simply working with other organizations to things it funded. And I think Mr. Abbott may remember one or two coach leaders, sometimes middle-management leaders. Sometimes of these incidents. I think he might have been at the other side of one this means that those people leave the organization, which the of those. organization isn't always so happy to experience. But as a career development for the professional, it does generate results for the My question to you is to what extent is it important for the council society as a whole and the community as a whole, as opposed to in to be autonomous in its decision-making capacity? And to what that actual organization. extent are you prepared to defend that autonomy? May 30, 2006 CHPC-04 9

Mr. Robert Sirman: I think it's absolutely critical, and I will If Canada wishes to maintain its sovereignty as a separate nation defend it as long as I am in this position. It was critical for me at the in the world, it will have to invest in ensuring that the Canadian Ontario Arts Council in the 1980s; it was something that underlay people share a common culture. The arts are an important part of that my interest in studying the history of the Arts Council of Great culture, and they are undoubtedly bombarded by the transborder Britain, which, as you know, was the first of the arm's-length bodies power of present-day technologies, which expose us increasingly— that we're aware of. I believe it's a strength in Canada that we have not decreasingly, but increasingly—to outside cultural voices. the arm's-length principle at play in the awarding of grants to creative works, to new works, to works that have not yet seen the I am not sure what role the Canada Council will play for the next light of day and received the assessment of the court of public 50 years in that debate, that struggle, that challenge, but there's no opinion. I'm totally committed myself to the arm's-length principle in question that it will have to play a critical role. There's no question the funding of creative work. that if government and the council do not see culture as a critical Hon. Mauril Bélanger: On the point of tendering resignations, component in the sovereignty of the people of Canada, we will not should there be government interference? be able to protect our independence as a nation in the long run. Mr. Robert Sirman: This is speculative, but I experienced— ● (1635) Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Of course it's speculative. Mr. Robert Sirman: —those debates. Mr. Chris Warkentin: I was just wondering if there are some Hon. Mauril Bélanger: It's speculative, and where it's not impacts in the next number of years that you view the council will speculative, is on the side of government intervention, but that's have to deal with. Is there anything that jumps out as being some of neither here nor there. the first challenges you'll have to face in this position? Maybe it's all speculative— Some hon. members: Oh, oh! The Chair: I'm going to rule that question out of order. Mr. Robert Sirman: It's awkward. I'm not on the job yet. I haven't actually sat down with my colleagues, and I haven't been Hon. Mauril Bélanger: That's fair, Mr. Chairman. able to— The Chair: Okay. Mr. Chris Warkentin: No, I appreciate that. That's fine. We'll slip over now to Mr. Warkentin, please. Mr. Chris Warkentin (Peace River, CPC): Thank you very Mr. Robert Sirman: I know one of the great priorities that I much for coming in today. I appreciate the time. Do you feel the personally have—again, I can't speak policy-wise, but I can speak heat? It's not only outside, but it's inside. philosophically—is the accessibility of art to the people of the country. I really believe that ultimately we're going to have to be A voice: Yes, we brought the heat in. more proactive in trying to expose people to what constitutes the best Mr. Chris Warkentin: I'm a younger person, and I do have a of Canadian theatre, dance, music, visual arts, literature, etc. If that's concern about the arts going forward. I want to ensure that Canadian a partial answer to your question, then at least it's a partial answer. culture is maintained and that we have sovereignty within our cultural endeavours in this country, because I think it will be The Canada Council isn't the only player in that field. I will really important for my children and my children's children. be promoting the idea that the Canada Council work with partnerships, especially with other agencies in the Canadian Heritage I know it's very tough to speculate as to how things might turn out portfolio, to move forward on the accessibility issue as well as the 50 years from now, but I would suggest that we are at a very supply issue. important time in history. There's an increased influence from globalization. The technology that's being put forward is going to Mr. Chris Warkentin: Thank you. change the way—and you talked about this a little earlier—we consume culture and intermingle with culture. The Chair: Thank you. I'm just wondering if you would comment briefly on issues that you'll have to deal with at the Canada Council within the next We have one more question. number of years with regard to some of these impacts we see being placed on us from outside forces. Mr. Angus. Mr. Robert Sirman: If I can make a distinction between policy and philosophy, I'm very happy to speak on the philosophy side of Mr. Charlie Angus: Thank you. the equation, but I can't speak on the policy side. Philosophically, I believe it's the arts and culture that unite people My question is in terms of the overall budget, because we have into a collectivity. I was trained in the social sciences, and my first $11-million-and-some for general administration and $9-million- specialization was in anthropology. It was absolutely clear to me as a and-some for the administration of the programs themselves. That's student, and it is absolutely clear to me as an adult today, that it is not $20 million for administration. Then there's an additional $10 genetics or politics that unite people, it's culture. million that's kept as a surplus. So that's $30 million of the budget. 10 CHPC-04 May 30, 2006

My question is twofold. First, have you looked at the adminis- The Chair: Do I have a seconder? It is seconded by Mr. Simms. tration costs in terms of the Canada Council's overall budget, and are there areas we can improve on? Second, can you explain to me the (Motion agreed to) need to have $10 million sitting in a surplus when it's an annual Some hon. members: Hear, hear! funding program? It's not as if you are running a feeder school or a feeder company and you'd want to maintain a bit of a padding if The Chair: Thank you very much. I do know how warm it is, and revenues fell one year. I'm wondering, why is $10 million kept out of I'm quite sure it was warm for you today, but your answers were the money that could be used for programming? superb. I know when you get to your new job there will be a bit of a Mr. Robert Sirman: In all honesty, I can't answer that question. learning curve, I'm quite sure, but all the best, sir, and give my best I'm not inside the organization, and I do not yet have a full to the Canada Council. understanding of the decisions that lie behind the organization's Mr. Robert Sirman: Thank you very much. accounting. The Chair: Let's take about a five-minute break before we get to I do know that the administration of the Canada Council is our other business, and then we'll carry on. approximately 14% of the budget. I do know from my experience at ● (1640) (Pause) the Ontario Arts Council that this is a very respectably low number and that it's not viewed on the international scene as in any way ● (1645) being an eyebrow-raising percentage. The Chair: Maybe we can get back to business here. We've got a The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Angus, and thank you, Mr. Sirman. fair bit of work still to do. Now, as chair, I have a minute or two. The first item on the docket is that at the last meeting, Mr. Kotto moved a motion, and I understand he would like to withdraw that I must say that I've been very intrigued with some of your answers motion. today. I come from a small rural area, but with quite a theatrical (1650) presence. I live just outside of Stratford, Ontario, which last night ● had its 54th opening night. They started out very small, and I can tell [Translation] you how important the arts are to Perth county, to Stratford...not only Mr. Maka Kotto: It is because the documents have already been to Ontario, but to Canada and to the world. We have world-renowned sent, is that it? It is not this motion? artists who have trained there and have gone forward, and I know [English] that the Canada Council has been very, very instrumental in what has gone on there. The Chair: It is “That the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage summon the senior executives of Telefilm Canada, the I hear at various times that sometimes people from other countries members of its Board of Directors”— help us with our arts, and I don't know if everyone understands this. Sometimes they even help secure some of the funding that might be [Translation] provided here. I know that with the endowment fund at the Stratford Mr. Maka Kotto: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, but I thought we Festival, they set a goal a number of years ago of some $50 million. I were still dealing with the report. was talking to the chair in charge of that endowment fund last night, I was indeed informed of the legal opinion. We would obviously who had just presented $1.3 million to the festival for working have saved time if we had called upon Telefilm Canada's officials to capital. I do know that there was a couple from Chicago who appear in-camera, but since we have ascribed to the logic of donated $5 million to the Stratford Festival foundation that helped transparency, I would prefer to defer until the outcome of the legal with that. It was matched I think through the Canada Council, or by process the meeting with that group. I therefore would like to someone through Canada Council. suspend my motion for now. I met last year with the Canada Council people. I would like to address something that was said earlier about you and the ballet, and (Motion withdrawn) primarily from that side. Karen Kain from the ballet...I had arts [English] people, I had writers, I had everyone come to my office. And then I The Chair: Before we do work on your motions, I'm going to met with Minister Oda, who was our critic at that particular time, bring in the motion on the Banff World Television Festival. It was with a bigger group, so I know how important it is. proposed. What we've done is we have brought two budgets forward I must say that I congratulate all the members of the committee, here. We've looked at things. and you, sir, for this great meeting that we've had this afternoon. I'm just wondering how it would suit the committee if one member While you are still here, sir, I would like to have someone move from each party plus the parliamentary secretary plus the committee the motion, as follows: were to go to Banff. The reason I'm saying this is that the budget for everyone to go would be $50,000. That the Committee report to the House that it has examined the qualifications and competence of Robert Sirman and finds him competent to perform the duties [Translation] of the position of Director of the Canada Council for the Arts. Mr. Maka Kotto: Mr. Chairman, do you have the budget in front ● (1640) of you, because we do not have it in our documents? I do not know if Mr. Ed Fast: I so move. we are going to be talking numbers. May 30, 2006 CHPC-04 11

[English] Mr. Charlie Angus: But I would say, on the principle that my The Chair: Do you want to explain what we have here? tardy colleagues who didn't come.... Well, I won't ask them to come to Banff now. [Translation] The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Jacques Lahaie): The budget On a more serious note, the only thing I would suggest is that was presented two weeks ago. The overall budget amounted to perhaps we could do this in a more collegial manner. I recognize we $97,000 and we were asked to reduce it. That exercise having been may not need to have everybody there, but there are people from done, it now amounts to $50,000. We cut it in half. each of the parties who have played a role in the past, and who continue to play a role, who would otherwise not get the opportunity. If the members of the Committee accept the chair's suggestion to It's not to say four people or twelve; it's to ask whether there are send one representative per party, it would be yet another budget, people who really feel they want to be there. Let's count up how this time of $34,000. many that makes. [English] The Chair: Let's just start off with the original one, then, that we The Chair: I will read the motion: wanted, which is half of what it was the last time for everybody to That the proposed travel budget in the amount of $34,774 for the committee's go. We'll have a vote on that, and as far as the motion is concerned, meetings with the Industry stakeholders during the Banff World Television we'll just change the figures. For three days for 14 people, it is Festival be adopted and the Chair present the said budget to the budget $50,811. subcommittee of the liaison committee. So it would be: That was for five members and four staff. That the proposed travel budget in the amount of $ 50,815.00 for the Committee's Mr. Bélanger, go ahead, please. to attend the Banff World Television Festival and meet with Stakeholders of the Industry be adopted and that the Chair present the said budget to the Budget Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Chair, first of all, I don't know how Subcommittee on the Liaison Committee. many of the full complement of members will want to go. That's an imponderable that could be rendered ponderable in knowing, but as That is the motion. it is, it's imponderable. Mr. Charlie Angus: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I suggested we could do a show of hands to see whether there's even any point in I do not have the figures in front of me, but if I've just heard right, bringing this forward. I don't believe we are talking about 14 people for $50,000—which is half of what we originally proposed, and that right now. If we're talking about six, it's quite a different story, so I is in accordance with the wishes of the committee—the entire would prefer to get a general sense to know whether this motion committee can go. For $34,000, four plus one can go. Is that it? deserves to even be discussed or whether we're moving on to a much A voice: Plus the staff; it's nine. smaller number. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Fine. I'd have a problem with the second Mr. Jim Abbott: Mr. Chair, I'm curious. With the number of proposal. If we have accepted, after fairly significant discussion, the people who are going to be in Banff, and given the fact that this importance of participating at this event—and I think our research event is going to be taking place next week and that there are, I officer has distributed a document that attests to that, and the fact presume, going to be a couple of thousand people coming to Banff, that the minister is going to be there in the afternoon of Sunday could we presume there's even going to be accommodation for us, making an important speech, I gather, attests to it as well—I would deciding to go at the last minute, in any event? That's a practical argue that only sending a few members of committee would not be question. helpful, in the sense that the idea was that we all might be brought up Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Perhaps that could be directed to the to speed and to the same level, so that we can function better as we clerk, but it's not next week; it's the week after. embark upon a fairly extensive round of discussions and considera- The Chair: Mr. Fast. tions of broadcasting regulations, of CBC mandate review, terms of reference, and so on. For just a few members to have the opportunity Mr. Ed Fast: As another practical question, I'm assuming that the for discussion with the representatives of every group involved in the committee will not be meeting during that week. Is that correct? production and broadcasting of television—and cinema, in this case The Chair: The meeting will be in Banff. —and not others would I think be counterproductive. Mr. Ed Fast: No, I think that would be inappropriate. I'm not sure That's why I'm wondering at the sagacity of sending only five that's part of the original motion. I haven't heard that articulated here. members rather than all of those who may wish to go. The Chair: Well, there are going to be meetings held in Banff. I have many more, Jim. Mr. Ed Fast: I understand that, but they'll not be formal committee meetings such as we have today. The Chair: Mr. Angus. ● (1700) ● (1655) Mr. Charlie Angus: Mr. Chair, I have to be careful, because I The Chair: They're not formal; they're informal meetings. haven't had a chance to speak with my other members, who didn't Mr. Ed Fast: I just wanted to put that on the record. come today, regarding whether they'll be left behind. Again, I will restate my reasons for voting against sending a Some hon. members: Oh, oh! delegation at this time. 12 CHPC-04 May 30, 2006

It's not that at some date in the future I wouldn't find this to be That pursuant to Standing Order 32(5) on reports and returns, the Standing quite helpful for myself and for the committee, but I'm just in the Committee on Canadian Heritage forward a copy of the documents to the members of the Committee. process of completing reading through the Lincoln report. It's exceedingly helpful, and as I mentioned in my response to Mr. ● (1705) Bélanger's motion today, there are a number of recommendations Mr. Jim Abbott: May I ask for some clarification, Mr. Kotto? I that I support in that report. am just curious. I'm trying to get our process here. Considering that it I find that particular study, which is 800 pages long, comprehen- was a matter of asking if we could have a copy of the Lincoln report sive. It provides us with much of the information that we would base and the various reports, what was your thought process in coming our decisions on, and given the fact that there may be a motion going forward with a formal motion to do that? I'm not being critical. to the minister referring that report to her for a response within 120 [Translation] days, this trip, in my opinion, is premature. It's not that I oppose it in principle; I just oppose it at this point in time. Mr. Maka Kotto: It is the rules that require this. At the beginning of a new legislature, it is normal practice to supply to all committee The Chair: Okay, Mr. Fast, what we'll do, then, to answer Mr. members the documents pertaining to the work accomplished in the Angus, is have a show of hands of those who would be going to previous legislature. You could have moved the same motion. I am Banff. not seeking any glory in this; it is a simple procedural matter. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: In our case, I believe Ms. Dhalla and Mr. [English] Scarpaleggia also had indicated an interest in going. The Chair: Okay. I would like a bit of clarification. The Canadian The Chair: That's four— broadcasting system—that's the Lincoln report, correct? Mr. Jim Abbott: I would have to go. The Chair: Yes, and I would have to go. There would be seven of Mr. Maka Kotto: Yes. us, and four. The Chair: I know the first time we got a response from the What would we have to do, then, to change this? Can you put a ministry, it was three pages in English and three pages in French. budget together? Can you change the budget somewhat? Then we reintroduced that last year, and did we not get a stack back about like that? Would we not get that same thing back? The Clerk: Yes. We will subtract three members and then we'll come up with a better figure. My suggestion is that I don't think, other than if someone got a The Chair: I need it for— copy of the response.... Is that all you're looking for—a copy of the last response we had, to be distributed to everyone, or do you want to The Clerk: Thursday. get another...? Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Submit for the whole group, and those who don't go don't show, then, as an expense. [Translation] The Chair: Then that's what we'll do. We'll go for the whole Mr. Maka Kotto: I do not think that these are responses. These group. are documents: the Lincoln report and the report on film that we produced. I believe that this was distributed to all MPs, especially Mr. Chris Warkentin: For confirmation, what are the official those newly elected and the new members on the Committee. dates we're looking at now? The Chair: June 11, 12, and 13. The motion that follows deals with the point you make, with the Canadian film industry. This motion deals with tabling a report in the What we'll do is present a budget for $50,815, and it will be House in order to obtain a response from the minister. adjusted if those three people don't go. If we are three or four people short, it will be adjusted when things are finished. [English] The motion, then, is: Mr. Jim Abbott: Isn't that the point the chair is raising, if I understand it? That the proposed travel budget in the amount of $50,815 for the Committee's meetings with the stakeholders of the television, broadcasting, and film industry The previous government, in its various incarnations and various during the Banff World Television Festival be adopted and that the chair present the said budget to the budget subcommittee of the liaison committee. parliaments, ended up issuing, I believe, two responses to the Lincoln report. Is it your request that the current government issue Mr. Ed Fast: Can we have a recorded vote, Mr. Chair? yet another response? The Chair: We can have a recorded vote if you want. The reason I'm asking is that there's a fairly large bureaucracy at Mr. Ed Fast: Yes, please. Canadian Heritage, as there is at all the departments. They're all Mr. Charlie Angus: You're not going to be sending ten percenters involved in their own jobs. If, in addition to doing or overseeing the into each other's ridings now, are you? mandate review of the CBC, there is your request with respect to Telefilm, your request with respect to the report—everything just (Motion agreed to: yes 6; nays 4) gets bogged down with report after report after report. What more The Chair: We'll take that Thursday to the Liaison Committee. can be said about the Lincoln report? Now we get to Mr. Kotto's motion. It reads as follows: The Chair: Mr. Kotto. May 30, 2006 CHPC-04 13

[Translation] respond at the time, perhaps seek from the committee a delay—or Mr. Maka Kotto: If we do not obtain a response from the not—file a report, and then file an addendum later on, or a policy. government with regard to these two reports... The Lincoln report came back to us during the last legislature with Bill C-60 on With all due respect, Mr. Chairman, I'm not concerned that much copyright that died on the Order Paper. It was the beginning of a right now about bogging down the department. They can handle response. We have the report on the film industry, but if we obtain no these requests from Parliament to committee. It is their duty to response from the minister, what good will all of this work have respond to these reports if the committee so requests it. been? And what good will the work we will now undertake be if there is an election and we move into a 40th legislature? I believe So if the department has a difficulty in responding to legitimate that this is simply follow-up work. The clerk might be able to requests from the Parliament of Canada, that's entirely another enlighten us. This is a perfectly normal process. matter, which we can deal with. But that should not be what's driving our desire to obtain responses from the current government. [English] Mr. Jim Abbott: I realize I'm getting things a little mixed up, but The Chair: Mr. Angus. I'd just like to respond as well, seeing as we're talking about getting Mr. Charlie Angus: Well, Mr. Chair, having come onto the reports back, on the new report on feature film policy. I've written committee after the Lincoln report was done, I can say there was a down a couple of things so I'd have my thoughts straight, and if you sense out there that all this work had been done, and now we're in a don't mind I'll just share them with you. new government, a new Parliament, and all that work is put by the The government is presently considering the two studies. It has side. We had reintroduced that in the last Parliament because we felt done a series of proposed adjustments it would like to make to the it did deserve a response from the government, because it laid out a policy to improve effectiveness. It's important that stakeholders in plan, a road map. And it was very important for us to hear from the the industry have their chance to comment on these proposed minister where she saw the Lincoln report fitting into government adjustments to maximize their impact before they're made and before strategy. a government response to the standing committee report is made. The Department of Canadian Heritage must be allowed to complete I think at the end of the day we still felt we never did get a really its process with a final consultation with industry stakeholders this comprehensive commitment on the Lincoln report that was worth the summer. A discussion paper will be released that will present the work that had gone into it. proposed adjustments to the policy and call for comments. I certainly don't think, from my experience in the 38th Parliament, After this process, the department will be able to provide an that making that request ground down the heritage bureaucrats to the enlightened government response to the standing committee's report. level that they couldn't function any more. My God, we'd be in a A revised Canadian feature film policy would then be ready in early pretty sad state of affairs if asking the heritage ministry to respond to 2007, bearing in mind that I'm suggesting that the first part—that is, a document that everyone is very familiar with and asking this something that would be enlightened by further response from the government where they're going, how they see the Lincoln report, industry, being able to speak to the stakeholders over the summer— how they see the feature film study is going to throw all the would be a more conclusive thing for the committee to consider. consultation out the window. I can't see that happening, quite frankly. If instead this committee is going to say, “Give us a response to this study that has been done, boom, that's it”, then we'll get that. But Consultations are ongoing. Direction is being taken. I think what it won't be nearly as complete as it would be if the department has an we're asking is how do these reports, which involved a great deal of opportunity to take more input from the stakeholders. work and effort, fit into that broad picture? That's what we're asking So this would really slow things down tremendously and for, and I think it's a fairly straightforward, reasonable request. complicate things and serve no useful purpose, in my judgment. ● (1715) ● (1710) The Chair: Yes, Mr. Fast. The Chair: Mr. Bélanger. Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ed Fast: This is not a question but a comment. Is there a middle way of addressing this? I found the Lincoln report to be an I had understood from the word go that what this committee intriguing read. There's a lot of good material in there, and given the wanted was a response from this government to both of those fact that one report has come back—am I correct in assuming that? reports—the Lincoln report and the one on the film policy. And if this committee tables those two reports from the 38th Parliament in Mr. Jim Abbott: Two reports have come back. this 39th Parliament—as it is allowed to do and capable of doing under the rules—and asks for a government response, the Mr. Ed Fast: I thought one died. government, according to the rules of the House, must respond The Chair: One was very big. within five months. If I follow Mr. Abbott's timeline, five months takes us to somewhere in October, and that's after the summer and Mr. Ed Fast: One wasn't big? Perhaps we could simply request after the department has had the time to do all the consultation he that the minister confirm whether those responses reflect her present was talking about. If the government has not totally finished, it can views on the report. If not, she would have to go beyond that. 14 CHPC-04 May 30, 2006

What we don't want to do is plough new ground. But at the same ● (1720) time, we should have a response to that report. Mr. Jim Abbott: Now that was the motion with respect to the The Chair: I know I'm the chair, but I think if there was a film. Is there another motion with respect to Lincoln? regurgitated report, and most of what's there is the way the government feels right now, it wouldn't take terribly long to get a The Chair: No, it's for both. response, with a bit of copying of those responses. Mr. Jim Abbott: Thank you. I do understand that it costs a lot of money and time—a year and a The Chair: We now have a motion from Mr. Angus. It's dated half, I think—and speaking as a former member of this committee, I Tuesday, May 16. We won't get into that argument, because it said know it was our intent when we brought it back last year that it not 48 hours. be wasted. It's in both official languages: My suggestion would be that we call a vote on this, and if the ministry is bogged down and can't get the report back by October, it That the committee should examine the impacts of GATS negotiations on the Canadian television industry, and specifically: the impacts of GATS negotiations could ask for an extension. There's nothing the matter with that, if over stripping foreign ownership restrictions on Telecom that could have major there's too much work. implications for broadcast policy given the convergence of broadcast, telecom and cable distribution; the impacts of GATS negotiations on Audio Visual services, Mr. Jim Abbott: Mr. Chair, I want the committee members to be which are underway and could strip domestic content quotas, favourable tax clear on what they're asking for. If it's the wish of the committee, regimes for film and domestic rights for language and other restrictions; that we clearly the committee has the ability to do that. request the presence of senior members of the negotiating team and senior heritage and industry officials to face questions on the file. If the committee decides to retable the scripts, screens, and audience report, the ministry will then develop a response to the This is moved by Mr. Angus. Is there any discussion? report as tabled—period, full stop, end of statement. Mr. Abbott. Alternatively, if the committee does not ask for this, there will be Mr. Jim Abbott: It seems to me that we've had a very interesting further consultations with the stakeholders over the summer months. debate in Parliament today, the initial interchange between Mr. Those consultations, along with the process, will then be able to be Bélanger and me over the UNESCO agreement. tabled. It will not be the response to the scripts, screens, and audiences. It will be a combination of that, together with the As I indicated to him in a previous incarnation when we were in consultations with the stakeholders. opposition, I was representing the official opposition at that time and was fully supportive of that UNESCO agreement. I was fully So if I may, and I apologize if this sounds a bit harsh, but what supportive of the minister's efforts. I don't think anybody on the we're basically saying is: here is a document; report on it, and by the committee will have heard the current heritage minister say anything way, don't bother with the further consultations over the summer. to the contrary.

I am making a statement that this will happen, which doesn't make The Prime Minister, having taken specific action with respect to any sense to me. the place of Quebec at the UNESCO table...I can't imagine there's The Chair: Mr. Angus, you have the last question. Then we're any question about the fact that our government is completely, going to vote on this. utterly, and fully, in every conceivable and possible way, committed to treating culture as culture and is very sensitive to it within the All we seem to be doing is debating motions here. We haven't general agreement on trade in services. accomplished too much yet this year. The situation at GATS right at the moment, as I understand it, is Mr. Charlie Angus: I want to put on the record—because I do that the whole thing is bogged down. The Doha round is all bogged find this offensive—that what's being said here is that if we ask to down as a result of discussions over agriculture. We have no idea if table this, as is our right as a committee, then this consultation will the nations are going to see themselves as successful when coming not happen. I want it to be made very clear that this is what's being out at the other side. put forward on the table, and it's something we cannot accept. However, I am having a little difficulty understanding the We have a job to do. We put together a report and it has to have a necessity or value in this motion, which is to presume that foreign response. If the minister decides that she doesn't want to bother ownership restrictions will be stripped. To quote the motion, “could meeting with any stakeholders because we've put this forward, that's strip domestic content quotas”, and so on and so forth. her business. I can live with that, and I'll sleep very well at night. But I would like to think that Minister Oda, having been part of the I don't really understand what the value of this motion is, but I do process with us, understands the value of that and of ongoing input understand that in negotiating, if I were a negotiator, I would be very from stakeholders from all arts groups. interested in reading the transcripts of any of these hearings at this The Chair: Okay, I'm going to call the motion. committee, should the committee decide to do it. We would do a very good job of washing our domestic laundry and weakening the (Motion agreed to) position of the Canadian negotiators. May 30, 2006 CHPC-04 15

We know where the Canadian government is coming from on this commitments came because questions were asked and it gave people issue, as stated. I am therefore not really sure what the value of confidence. washing our domestic laundry would be in handing those Hansard copies from our committee hearings and our testimony to the other I'm open to the suggestion that we begin with officials at the level countries as they negotiate against us. of Heritage and Industry, because traditionally there has been a The Chair: Mr. Bélanger. divide between Heritage and Industry on a lot of these issues, and we know that. Will the Heritage officials come forward and say, do not Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Chair, I'm not totally insensitive to worry, we know where we stand in terms of cultural product? That the argument that Mr. Abbott has made in terms of discussing could end the discussion right then and there. negotiating mandates in public. I can understand there would be some concerns. Perhaps we can accommodate that if the will of the committee is to hold such a meeting in camera. I think it's a My concern is that we know that Canada is a requester nation at legitimate point. the GATS right now on the telecom, and telecom has been an Industry file, but because of convergence and because of the The other concern I have would be to express a preference to my implications for broadcast, what steps has the ministry taken? What colleague, Mr. Angus. In the last bullet it says, “we request the steps are they looking to take to ensure that our broadcast policies presence of senior members of the negotiating team and senior are still intact if GATS goes ahead? As well, we are on the receiving heritage and industry officials”. I would prefer that we start with end of the GATS request on audiovisual, and those raise all the senior heritage and industry officials, on the premise that senior fundamental issues. Whether it's the Lincoln report, the film members of the negotiating team may be involved in negotiations, industry—anything we've talked about around this table is being and bringing them in from wherever the negotiations are currently discussed at Geneva. going on is perhaps a disruptive matter. For the time being, I would be prepared to start with the senior officials from both the industry I think it would be incumbent upon us to hear from those officials. and heritage departments in order for them to explain to us the I don't believe we need to hear from those officials in camera. I think negotiating mandate that's been given to the negotiating team. if there is something that is raised that they want to give us a further briefing on, or a separate briefing, and we would go in camera, I'm I don't know if my colleague would be amenable to that, and that fine about it. But I think an initial briefing is to get a sense of where we do it in camera, if that is the desire of the committee, in order to we're going. I would defer on the issue of the negotiators at this point protect...and for obvious reasons. if we can hear from ministry officials. ● (1725) The Chair: We're going to have two questions here. We're got The Chair: Mr. Fast, as the last speaker. five minutes left. Mr. Kotto first, and then Mr. Angus. Mr. Ed Fast: Thank you, Mr. Chair. [Translation] Mr. Maka Kotto: Mr. Chairman, given that Canada has worked I'm prepared to support the motion if it is in camera, and I think it very hard to gain adoption of this agreement on cultural diversity at would be helpful for it to be a unanimous vote of this committee. My UNESCO and given that Canada is one of only two countries in the fear is that if we don't go in camera, we won't be getting any world to have ratified this agreement, I fail to see why we would information, if not an outright refusal to appear. And if they can't wish to debate this issue behind closed doors. refuse to appear, they'll simply show up and say, “I'm sorry, these are confidential negotiations and we're not going to give you any I believe that we should show transparency, given that this debate information”. I want to have them here and I want to be able to does not simply revolve around numbers. It is a debate on our discuss this pretty frankly with them, get as much as possible, so that society, on our values. This is why I support the idea of discussing we understand at least somewhat the direction that the negotiations this openly. are going in. I'm supportive of dealing with this, but it had better be [English] in camera. The Chair: Mr. Angus. Mr. Charlie Angus: Can I put forward, then, as a friendly— Mr. Charlie Angus: I appreciate this. The Chair: Yes, you can. Yes, Doha is grinding down and there are two schools of thought. One is that they're going to declare victory and walk away from Mr. Charlie Angus: As an initial briefing—because again this whatever little they get. The other is there is going to be a greater might lead to a whole series of questions further down the road—I'm impetus to try to cobble something together. But regardless, GATS more than willing to do it in camera. If it means that's our first step, goes on. GATS is a separate round. And it is an important issue. I we can see whether or not we're all satisfied or as a committee we don't think it is the issue of airing our dirty laundry, because having have to follow up with further questions down the road with other been on the agriculture file, the agriculture sector continually asks officials. the questions: where are we going at Doha and where is our position? And we got very clear responses from the present ● (1730) government in terms of supply management. We will defend supply management. We will defend these rights internationally. Those The Chair: So if we do it in camera...? 16 CHPC-04 May 30, 2006

Mr. Charlie Angus: That we request the presence of Heritage and The Chair: It's 5:30. We've run out of time. Thank you, everyone, Industry officials to face questions at an in camera session. for your cooperation today. We got some business done. Thank you. The Chair: Does everyone understand that? All those in favour? (Motion agreed to) The meeting is adjourned to the call of the chair.

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