[ASSEMBLY.] peis me to give support to thie proposal so North-East Fremantle had the effect of in- that every penny mnay be accounted for. This creasing the consumption of current in Cot- is what I have been accustomed to, antd tesice and its environs? 2, Does he recall what has been good enough for mec should an answer given to ine last session to the not he departed from in the auditing of the effect that, when the new power plant at affairs of the State reserves, not even for a East Perth had been thoroughly tested, re- Mr. Shapcott, If the Bill is not aill that ductions of electricity charges would follow members desire, it call be moulded into cor- in tile Cottetiloe district? 3, If so, does that rect form. I intend to support the second promise still hold good? reading, and I hope other memnbers will do The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS we- the same. plied: 1, No. 2, Charges were reduced by On mnotion by Hon. J. Nicliolson, debato 1d. per unit in December, 1937. 3, Answered adjourned. by 'No. 2.

Reus(,e adjourned ait 5.56 p.m. QUESTION-CARRIER'S LICENSE. Mr. XII FINN asked the Minister for Works: 1, Are applicants for a new carrier's license for rh0 metropolitan area regnired to produce evidence as to their financial posi- tion or financial capacity to undertake the business of a carrier? 2, If so, under -what authority are such assurances required? The MINISTER FOil WORKS replied: 1, No. 2, See No. 1. Ilegislative EoeembLp, QUESTION-MT. LAWLEY SUBWAY, Tuesday, 25th October, 1938. WIDENING.

P&Gs Mrr. S. MacCALLIUM SM[TH asked the 'Questions: L ast Perth Power House, cost of current, Minister for Works: When will a start be Cottesioe ...... Carries license, new ...... 153S made with the long delayed widening of the Mt. tawley subway, widening...... 1538 Ferny service, double-rail boat...... 1538 Mouint Lawler subwary? Native Aduuinistratlon Act, as to regulations 1520 Licensing Court, appointments...... The -MINISTERi FO11 WORKS replied: Swan It iver improvements, removal or sin'L-. 153u; Assent to Bil ...... 1539 The -work will bp started when the steel is lulls: Jury Act Amendment, 3i...... was9 placed in Marketing or Onions, reports ...... 15519 recived. Order for the steel Bureau of Iudustry end Economic Research, JuneV 1114 lit delivery is not expectedl until ...... SiorsSalreport and Soldiers' scholarship Fund, report 1539 early next year. Land Tax and income Tax, 2R., Cow. report 1530 Beail Murray Co-operative Memorial Scholarship Fund, 2u., Oom. report 1540 qualification of Electors (Legtiltve 'Councl), 2Et...... 1540 QUESTION-FERRY SERVICE. Auctioneers Act Amendment, 23&,Corn, report 1653 Annual Estimates, 1938-39: Votes and Items dis,- consed--Crown Law Offices...... 1555 Double-eec? Boat. Mr. CROSS' asked the -Minister for Rail- ways: 1, Have tenders been called for the The DEPUTY SPEAX-ER took the Chair construction of a double-end ferry-boat for at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. the 'Mends-street-Barrack-street service? 2, If so, has a tender been accepted? 3, When is it expected that the new boat will be avail- QUESTION-EAST PERTH POWER able for the service? HOUSE. The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS re- Cost of Currenat, ('of teshe. plied:. 1, Tenders, returnable on 13th Octo- M1r. NORTHI asked the Minister fur Rail- bher in London, were called for propelling ways: 1, Has the recent reduction of eke- machinery. 2, No. 3, It is impossible to tririty rhoarges secured by the member for say until tenders are accepted- [2-5 Ocroun. 103S.] 1539

QUESTION-NATIVE ADMINIS- all those things. The subject has not even TRATION ACT. been considered. If the hon, member will As to Regndations. glive notice of his questions, I will furnish replies. Ur. NULSEN (without notice) asked the Premier: 1, Is he aware that regulations under the Native Administration Act arec ASSENT TO HILLS. being enforced In- the Commissioner of fesuromn the Licut.-Governor received Nive Affairs notwvithistanding that theyv have not been laid upon the Table of the atid read niotifying assent to the following Bills:- House? 2, If so. will hie have tile enf .orce- unt of tile regulantions discontinued until 1, Alsatian Dog Act Amendment. the House has bad all opportunity to discuss 2, -Northain -Municipality ILan Authorisa- them? 3, If hie is not aware of tile fact, tioni. will he have itijniries, inadlet The PREMIER replied: I ami iot aware, that reguIlations as stated arc being enforced: BILL-JURY ACT AMENDMENT. but in any case, ats I1said last week inl answer Read at third litte and transmitted to the to a question, the ieguan ions are being re- Council. viewed and revised. I hope to be in a posi- tion to lay then, onl the Table next week. BILL-MARKETING OF ONIONS. Reports of Committee dopted. QUESTION-LICENSING COURT, APPOINTMENTS. Ifr. MARSHALL (without noticec) asked BILLS (2)-REPORT. tIt j.HiiittjLhU I.Ljc tiic Woe Lot II occ J., JAIureal of industry anU tcuoMIle tile members of the Licensing Court are duec Research. for re-appointment, or the date onl which 2, Sailors and Soldiers' Scholarship Fund. appointments to the Licensing Court will Adopted. take place! The PREMIER replied: I believe the lip 1)ointments are made for three Years. I n BILL-LAND TAX AND INCOME not quite sure, but almost positive, that the TAX. current appointments wvill expire in August Second Reading. of next year. D eb~ate resumed from the 20th October. HON. C. G. LATHAM (York) [4.39]: 1 QUESTION-SWAN RIVER oifer io objection to the Bill, and I do not IMPROVEMENTS. know that to do so would be advantageous. Removal of Sheds. This is the usual taxing mneasare introduced M-Nr.RAPHAEL (without notice) asked annual lv. The Annual Estimates have been the Minister for Works: 1, Does the Govern- introduced andi in part passed, and we know ipient intend to keep the agreement made with what thle Government's commitments are. the Perthi Cit 'yCo until regarding removal of We know Aso that there will be insufficient sheds on the north side of the Swan river? funds to meet those commitments unless the 2. As the Government promised that no fur- Bill is enacted. Accordingly, and as the titer tenancies would be granted in respect of Treasurer did not find it necessary to make the sheds on the south side of the river., and a long speech on the measure, I do not think as the lighltering company concerned has it would become mue to do so. ceased its activities, does thle Government in- Question put and passed. tend to remove those sheds immediately? 3. Bill read a second time. Is it a fact that the Government is allowing the tenants of the sheds in question to use In Oomm~ittee. 9 them for storage purposes Bill passed through Committee without The MINISTER FOR WORKS replied: debate, reported without amendment and the I cannot possibly be expected to remember report adopted. [ASSEMBLY.]

BILL,-BASIL MURRAY CO-OPERATIVE /In Committee. MEMORIAL SCKOLARSmIP FUND. Bill passed through Committee -without Second Beading. (lebate, reported wvitholit amendment and thle D)ebate resunetl from the 20th October. report adopted.

MR. PATRICK (Greenougli) [4.4'2]: I suppose a number of country mnembers will BILL-QUALIFICATION OF ELECTORS recall thle late -Mr. Basil M1urray, who at one (LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL). linie was the general manager of Westrajian Second Reading. Farmers, Ltd., thle leading co-operative soci- 1)ebate resumed f'roni the 20th Septenmbe. ety of the State. IUnder his managemient, co-operation niade very great strides. In HON. C. G. LATHAM (York) [4.48]: 1' fact, I think hie was the pioiieer of the wire- an, not treating this Bill as I dlid the ]ast less service in this State: he established the one. 1 intond to he consistent. Every time first wireless station in Western Australia, a Bill similar to this has been introduced thle old (;WP. lie was undoubtedly a mnan since I have been a uniber, T have olpposed of aniazing energ-y and outstanding person- tile second readig. I prop)ose to opil~os ality. Whn hie died, the Co-operative Fed- the second reading onl this occasion, and I eration-tho 'group of co-operative com- intend to have a little say to try to convince panies that works along -with the Westralian the 1-louce that myv reasonling is sound. I Farmiers-decided to perpetuate his miemory si ncerely hope (lie Bill will not pas flip by raising a sumn of money to establish second reading As T have said, this Bill scholarships. They raised thle suin of has been introduced prev'ioiusly in different £1,189, with which they decided to establish forms. On the last two or three occasions, seholarships at the Muresk Agricultural the wvording was simtilar to that of the( pre- College for sons of members; of thle co- sent Bill, and the Houise knewv the fate that operative societies. Actually, three las awaited the Bill onl those occasions in an- passed through the course at college and one other placee. I' think another place acted is at present resident there. Those who vely wisely. established the .sepholarshipls fond, however, Thie Minister for Works: A similar Bill that they lost touch with the boys after they was, introduced when your party was in left college. and the boys lost touch entirely with co-operative Iprinciples. At a meeting Hion. C. G-. LATHAM: Was it? I ani of thle subscribers to the fund, it was un- going to mention that; I have a copy of it aiiiniouisly decided to alter the purpose for here. Although this Bill is brought forward, which the mone v had been subscribed. The the public itself is not making a demand for subscribers now desire that the fund should an alteration in thle franchise for the Lgs be uitilised to assist suns of co-operators to lative Council. That has never been made be trained in co-operative and business prin- an election matter, nor has it been submitted ciples. I believe great difficulty is being ex- to thle people, so I von ture to suggest they perienced in securing suitable men to fill would refuse to endorse the Government that positions inl thle various co-operative comn- mnade it a vital matte]' at an election. For panics. In addition, there is a wide field for somne unaccountable reason, however, the Bill investigation into co-operation. Whenl thlt is sullitted to this T-1ouse. If time present suscibrstook legal advice, they found quialifications arvecarefully stdied hex' that the alteration could not be effected ex- will lie fond to be much more liberal than cept by the authority of Parliament, and the Government would have us believe. They for thait reasonl this B ill has been introduced are vax'- liberaEl indeed. I contend flint the by the Minister. As. the proposed alteration present frainchise is : iniarried roan's, fran- chise. Exverv%miarried] man maust have a homne has beeunaniously greed to by the sb and at least 999 out Of everTy scribers to thle fund, I do not think the thousand people have homies for whivh surely tliey pay 6b. House can have au' objection to the Bill.' I 6d. a week remit. A. moan irho'lives .in a hiou!4e have inuch pleasure in suipporting the with ai rental value of Cs. 6d. is entitled to seond reading. vote as all oleciLr. Question putf aind paOssed. Mr. Rodoreda : Would you bie in favour of Bill read a sevond fimne. restrictingl the qlualification? [25 OCTOBER, 1938.1 141 .541

lion. C. G4. LATF{AM: -No. electors are set out. A person is qualified Mir. Rodorela : Do yout consider it goes if ha- far enoughl.? (1) Has a legal or equitalte freehold estate in possession Situate iii tile electoral Hon. C. 0. LATHAM: I think it is just province of the cilat value of £GO5sterling; or right. I am too old ai bird to be caught with (2) Is a householder within thle provine chlaff of that k-id. I ami not uikedr to say% occupying atny dwell ing-hou se of the clear an- nual valuec of 917 sterling; or that we should tighten it uip, but we canl do (3) Has at leasehlold estate iL possession a good deal to bring thle rolls uip to date. situate within the provutce of the clear annual whichi we :t H not doing. 'When we make a vaIlue of LEIT stering4; or comparison between the numnber of people (4) Holds a lease or license from the Crowni entitled to rote for- the Legislatire Assembly to) dItstre, OCCUPY, C1iltivate or mine upoin Crown latnds within the province at a rental a11(1 the number enititled to vote for the Le-- of tint less than £10 iier annum. islative Council, we are dealing with wron~g premises altogether. 'In one instance there So thaOt if' we add the people thus, qualified to the 114,600, who as I have is comlpulsory enrolment, People are finled already said are entitled for not having their namecs onl the roll, The to have their namnes on the roll, we franchise for thle Legislative Council shall find( there are at least 150,000 entitledl to thle privilege, whereas actuially at present is voluntatry, and iii consequence many 86,711 are enrolled. people eligible fur enrolment are not enrolled. I have mnade a considerable The Mlinister for Justice: The figuire of investigation of tis matter,' and the 150,000 is not accurate. figures I now intend to give are not mnine Hon. C. G. LATJ-AM : 'it mayv not be, but hut are taken fromt thle smiall pocket Year it is estimiated that there may lie about Book for 1937 with which member-s are sup- 150,000, because the, figure of 114,000 is ac- plied. Tile numinber of dwellings in Western curate, and we have to take into considera- Australia execeds 114,000. Each person tion thle uinoccupied lands that are held liv in- living in a Louse is entitled to vote, irre- ~ tjr ~ ltlit 4 U It, t LItC1J namies on the roll, but who may not spective of ownership. I (10 not mean CVeltVN be hous- person over 21 in the house, but the personl holders. and all thle othert People ilitLt hve that pays tile rent, or is responsihle fot' leaseolcis, or may lie co taped1 Onl Inilig Iwo- pay-ing the rent, is entitled to have his name lperty for whichl the". par a rental of £10. 01 onl thle roll. Of those dwellings, 46,000 ite hare leases inl thei irime; and arc thuis ent in the municipal areas and 63,000 in road titled to have their namnes on the roll. Con- hoard districts. I do not think the 'Minister sequently T do not think I was ove'r-est-imat- who introduced thle Bill 'Will dispute those ing when I sug-gested that probably over figures. 150,000 would be entitled to he enrolled. Trhe Minister for Justice: NO, I will nlot. If the Minister dlesires to convincep tli- Rout'b might first of fill ensure thai thosc C. G. LATFI AM1: There are 1.14,000 Honl. pe)ole entitled to have their, namnes on thc dwellings and, as I pointed out to the H-ouse 1oll areP enrolled. henI he0 i' able to tell before, every person paying rent over 6s. Gd. LUS lie has; satisfied himself that, as nlearly ais -1 think it is 6s. t64d., to be accurate-is possible, 100 per enit, of those entitled tr entitledl to hare his namec on the Legislative have their names otil the roll have beet Council roll. I do not think the M1inister enrolled, lie canl ask for the reforms! that will dispute that. hie thinkLs ne0cessary. 'But to saE' r that be- The Minister for J1ust ice: Considerably cause there are only 86,711 namies onl ft( more than 6s. Gd. roll thait is the state of the roll as eotiiPare Hon. C. G. LATHAM: Well, it is £17 a with the Legislative Assembly roll, is ft rear, and f think that works out at about manke a very unfair comparison. That is on( OS. 64-d. of thep matters that should claimi the "Min The Minister for Justice: Seventeen ister's atention. p)ounds a year clear. That makes a differ- Aniother- aetiviti- it, which the Minister eniee. mnight engage before lie submits a Bill ci Hon. C. G. LATHAM: It may make a this kitnd is to go carefully through the pro slight differenice. Under Section 15 of the ruled tolls and ascertain whether there is Constitution Act, onl pages 101 and 162 of fair- proportioti of names On each of thi the Staniding Orders, the qualifications of rolls. I desire to show the discepante2 1542 1542[ASSEMBLY.] that exists between districts. I kinow Bill to liberalise the franchlise of the Upper that there are somec provinces iii whieh Hlouse, and there is a great similarity be- it woid~d be difficult to geCt an even tween that Bill and the measure now 1,- numlber of voters throughout because. of tore its, If myy interpretation is correct, the very huge areas, covered and the every person who rents a room and pays sparsityV of population, but many mighit have 6is. t6d. per week for it, will be entitled to some consideration given to them. The vote provided that the room opens out on Central Province, for instance, has 5,980 to a passage. I nay hie permitted to quote electors onl the roll, while the East Province fromt that Bill of 1921, It sets out- alongsqide has 10,798. 'The Metropolitan "Dwelling-liousel' ' eans any structure of a Province has 6,982, and the Metropolitan permanent character ordinarily capable of being Siiburbani used for the purpose of human habitation and mrea surrounding it has 31,024 ' The North Province, a very isolated one, has incltudes--(a) P'art of any such. structure. where 886 names. The North-East has 4,190, and that part-(i) is separately Occupied for sueh purpose; and (ii) lets no direct means of ac- the South 3,443, while the West Province has cess to, and is struer,,rallv severed frem ny 9,142, the South-East 6,997, and the South- other part of the strileture which is occuplied West 7,289. There should he a better dis- rot a sinilar purpose hry miy other person. tribution of the electors in the provinces, IT there is a dividing wall, then it is stev- and that should be effected before a Bill is ered. Thus, it the Bill now before uis introduced for any reformn in the passes in its franchise for lpresent form, so long as the the Legislative Council. room does not open out on to any other Last year the Government submnitted the room, the occupant will be permitted to Electoral Act to a Commission for the pur- have his name enrolled, provided he pays pose of iresubdividing the boundaries and 6s. 6d. a week as rent for that room. That to fix a fairer quota for the Assembly. is going further then the previous Bill That Commission, in its finding, made re- wvent. In this morning's newspaper the ferencee to the Legislative Council provinces Premier, iii making a defence against an .and, extraordinary to relate, when the Bill -ittackc on tile Government by the Leader was submitted to this House, there was no of the 'National Party, stated that a Bill mention whatever of the Council provinces. was introduced ait the time the National That makes me donbt whether the Govern- Party was in power, and that it was passed ment really desires to effect anly reform of by the Assembly. That statement is true, the Council. If there were. such a desire, but the Bill was different from the Bill wvhy dlid tnt the Government give effect to now before us, and different from the mea- the findings of the Commnission! Nothing sure introduced by the member for Bouil- whatever was mentioned about the boun- der ini 1921. That hon. member stated, when iaries of the Council provinces. If an ad- introducing the Bill, that it did not meet justinent of the province boundaries were with all his wishes, but that went further inode, it would be possible to have better than the existing Act, and set out that a representation than that which exists to- "dwe~lling house" aseat- lay. The representation would certainly Any structure of atpermanent character, being 3e on a fairer basis. It does appear strange a fixture) to the sOil whiVch is ordinarily capa 'ble tbat one person's. vote in the Metropolitan of being used for humnan habitation, and in, Province should be equal in value to five eludas part of a buildinig When that part is n the iA[etropolitan-Subnrban Province. setartely occupied ais a dwielling; provided tha~t when a dwelling-house is only part of a Imagine the vote of one person in the 'Met- building and any other part thereof is in titi opolitan Province having the same value occupation as a dwelling of some other per- is the votes of five people inl the neigh- son other than the occupier of the first-men- )ourrng province! Certainl 'y that is a vary tioiied part, such firs t-minention ed part shrill not be a d well ing-houise Nvithin the meaning of tis5 infair distribution, and the Clovervntent section, unless it is structurally severedl frnm 11hould have set About to equalise the pro- such ether part of the building andl there is no )ortion. If the Government dlid that, it direct meansi of acecss liItwCefl sQuc parts. Vould he doing- some thing Onl demlocratic That is totally different from what is con- ines, and would distribute the Council tained in the Bill now1 before the House. rotes; more equitably' than is the position T have carefully examinied the measure be- o-day. ITn 1q21 the present member for fore usc and do not hesitate to say that it 3oulder .(Hon. P. Collier) introd'uced a is muchll more liberal than the Bill of [25 OoFOBER, 1938.) 1,54354

1921. It is true that that Bill passed this otlier side of this Chamiber. If thle Govecrn- House. That was just after a general ment set out to secure the enrolment of election,' when there were many neLw mntin- tvory person entitled to vote, we would hanve bers in the Assemtbly. I thik thle higun- better representation in1 the I euzi.,ativc (oun- were :22 in favour and 12 agaiuiit it. flu cii than that prevailing to-day. Every party that occasion I voted against any a~ltet'a- is entitled to reasonable rej nesen tat ion. tion of the franchise of the Legislative There are 114,000 dwellings, in the State. Counc-il. I. do not consider myself con- The Premier: There are 641G in thle Form u- s-ervative at all, and T do not say that the electorate not on the roll and whose inmes LegilJa tire Council representation should should be there. not be as full as possible; but I do think Hon. C2.G. LATHAN: It is myv belif that itf we' cotld give a rote to those people that there itre manly peope who are 110t iLt who are entitled to vote for the ILegislative all anxious to get on tile roll. As at matter Council. we s'hould d10 Ko, and thenl there of fact there are memibems of this 1I'im .. whim, would Ieo very' little cal lsi' for Complaint. aire obligted to make a hotiso-to-ioue (!an%,,, The difficuilt'-, however, is to get namecs on prior to ail election. thit roll: probably that is- the grreatest 'Mr. Cross: What is wroaL' with that? trouble. In my opinion it is, the desire of H-on. C. G, LATHAI Thr isntIi the Government to bring, about adlult fran- wrong- with it so long as the sig-natures of chise in resplect of another place. If that be the elainiants are obtainied at the door. so. it would be far preferable to bring down M~r. Cross : Amid that is done. a Bill to provide for adult franchise for the Hon. C. G. LATHAMIN: It is not done. Legislative Council, instead of vlndeavoliriwz Mr. Cross : You do tnt know anything to bring- about that end by the means now nbont it. being employed. We would then know I-Ion. C. G. LATHAM: I? rime hon). menm- exactly where we wore, and so wvould the her challenges mie to declare what I tio know electors. Then, also, we could have coin- I will say- it. I think there is a chiallenire in his interjection. Anyway' ;F can declare that The Minister for Justice; Would you sup- it is not a function of members of Parhin- poit thiat? nient to niake a house-to-house canvass. HTon. C. G. LiATHAMt: I am not going to Mr. Cross: The qualifications should not sywhether I would support it. I ami a be so complicated. democrat and a real one, while niemlbers, flon. C. G. LATHAM: They are simply opposite are out-and-out dictators. I should set out, and if the hon. member knew them be ashamied to father sonic of the legrislation lie -would experience 110 difficulty. that they submnit to the House. I do not Mr. Cross: We know aboutI two of theml: propose to support the Bill. 1 am aware tell 'IS aLbout the other eight. that one oif the planks of the Labour 1)Iat- Hon. C, G. LATH AM: A_ newly married form is the abolition of tile Legislative man many pturchase a houmse and putt it in his Council. That House, however, is a safe- -wife's namne. She then becomecs entitled to guard in this State, and while I admit the enrolment, and the husband is also" en~titledl Queensland Labour Government, in its wis- to a vote ais the oecupier of the honn'v. Thus dom or otherwise, abolished thle second there are two votes there. Tfhat kind of Chamber in that State, I remember that thai rhinug would mever be done by us. Mr. Hcgn"ley: What lily-white people you was done against the wvishes of the lpeoIple A referendum was taken and an overwhelin- ;1e! iag majority was in favour of the retention Bon. C. G. LATHAM: Some p~eople know of the Chamber. Despite that fact, however. how to interpret the law to suit them1selves. thle Government disreg-ardedI flie wvishes IP Prohably Labour orua nisa tion., Ic iaw better the people. paceked the I'pp)er Houske with thani anyvone else. At any rate, f will zdye its Own supporters and, in that wvay. secured themu credit for haviag that knowledge. the j:assa ' e of the Bill for the abolition of Mr. Cross : They study the. position More- the Second Chamsber. In Western Auitralia than anyone else. we have a very good franchise. There are* Hon. C. 0. LATHAM: As I havo already times. when I disagree with the views ol' d4ated, there are 114,00 people enttitledi to members of another place, but thant doez nt hav-e their names onl the roll, thuhnot all make thein wrong. I frequently disagree of theni are Sufficiently interested to, ep tbqt wkith the views expresed by members on the their nanies are placed on the r-oll. If ths, 1544 1544(ASSEMBLY.]

Goverlnment will onl1y see to it that the! Premier cannot expect the House to c;hange innuc~s of all entitled to enrolment are en- its mnind ats rapidly as all that. I agree that rolled, it may succeed in chanigig my ideasi. all parties should have reasonable represen- I have always voted against a Bill of this tation in another place, but 1 do not think description except onl one occasion, when, this Bill will bringw that about. Thle Gov- against my own wishes, I voted for it. It eranienit mlighit SLetre better representation was the occasion when it was found neces- if it ensured that those people who w~ere en- sary to bring a patient fromt at hospital to titled to have their names put on the roll record his vote. I hare always opposed the took the trouble to place themn there. extension of the franchise of the Upper House. .1 do0 not want the Miiter now to MR. STYANTS (Kalgoorlie) [5.17]:- I start running round to see that tile electoral support the Bill, and ivould like to go even rolls arc in order. further in liberalising thle franchise for anl- The Premier: The respoiisibility- is, on the othe-r place. We mutst take into considera- elector himself. tion not only thie franchise, but the present lion. C. G. LATHIAM: It is the duty oi conlstitltiol (T the Legislative Council. A the Government to see that the law is enl- person who owns property in each of the forced, hut I am afraid it is not always ten provinces rain become enrolled for thema enforced. We spoil peole because we do all, and record a. vote for each one. That the work for them. Plenty of pulicity is entirely opposed to the principles of ;should be given to this sort of thing. deniocracy. It is flu insult to the intelli- The Premier: I have read inl the pressP or izenee of thle adults of thle State that sueb at prosecutions that have been launched against condition ofT affairs should continue. Two- Pieople. thirds of the population of the State -ire di- Ron. C. 0e. LATHAII: We know it is franikhised for the Legislative Council. I difficult to persuade people to understand will assunme that the figures quoted by the and observe the law. When mnembers of Leader of the Opposition, indicating that Parliament canvass for claim cards, people there are -114,000 dwelling houses in thle are apt to be careless about their own elee- State, are correct, and that somneone or somec total affairs. I do not pro pose to support person inl each house is entitled to be en- any clause of the Bill. Not one of thorni is rolled for thle Upper House. Despite this, justified nor required by the public. The every second~ person living in such houses is cxisting-franichise hans served the State well, d'eprived of the righit to vote at Council and the Government has very little reasoni to elections. I know that quite a numhcer of comiplain about the action of another place. people icho are entitled to vote do not take" Tile Legislative Council has been particu- thle tLrouble to have their namnes put on the larly liberal to the Government and has roll for another place. Approximately given great consideration to the legislation 86,700 people are onl the roll for the U'ppecr sent up to it. The Premier feels aggrieved House, and 250,000 are on the roll for this that some of his Bills that recently went to Hfoase. Nevertheless, two out of every three another place did not pass, but I point out q~i~ire disfranchised in the case of the that the personnel of that Houise mieunwhile Legislative Council. The latw that allows a has not changed. Last year a great deal of person to have tenl votes. providled he has thle consideration was given by another place to nieessanry property qualification for each of the legislation of thle Grienment, and one the provinces, is too liber-al, and is opposed Bill in particular was referred to a select to the principles of democracy. Let me com- committee. It is nto use thle Government pare the franchise in this State wvith that sending up the samne Bills year after year, for the Commonwealth Parliament. A man and imagining that members of another does not requireO any13pro1ertY ciualificatiou place have changed their minds. for tile National Parliament, except that he Thle Premier: Atnother place ag-reed to one s;hall lie over the age of 21, and be either a of the Bills that was sent to it last year. natural-born or a nalturahised British sub- Hon. C. G. LATHAM: If the same Bill ject. He will then he entitled to record his bad been sent uip this time, it would have vote for those he desires to have elected to been passed . hut the Bill of this session conl- the legislative halls of the Federal Parlia- tained a gLood deal of foreign matter. The ment. This State has the smallest popula- [25 (FcToqiip. 109.] II15,15 tion of almost tiny in Australia. and yet Mrs. Cardell-Olivur : You are -jeaiking people must possess the property qualifica.- abhouit a money Bill, are, von not! Lion 6efore they are allowed to vote for the Mr. STYANTS : That applies toi any Legislative Council. In the wider spohere, int'asirc. We have not that privilege ill this however, that of the National Parlia- State. If we could do that here, I would iont whielh controls the destinies, if the not have so much. objection to the poresent Commonwealth, a person need be only franchise. I agree that the franchise izs not 21 year-, of age and be a natural-horn particulairly stringent. hut because it dis- ora naturalised British subject to be franchises so mnany people we should have it allowed a vole for eithei' of thle twollic. altered. It is not so much a question of Compared with thle National Parliament that tile intelligence of the eleetor and their of Western An,,tralia is somtething iii the ability to east a vote, as a qavntion of the nalture of at glori ied local groverning. body. brick-s, mortar and land being expected to 31y ehiet' objection Io the franchise for the ecord a vote. In miy opinion, the Legislativtt Lpper Hlouse is, that that Chamber is file Couneil should be aolished entirely, orc fail- nmost strongly entrenched legislative aother- ing that the franchise should bt- onl an adult ity founid in anl'y part of the British Empire. hash.. Queensland decided there Wvas no0 In the -Nation,]l Parlianment, the 11ousa lof neces-ity for an U'pper House, and has pro- Representatives has the right to declare a bably mnade greater headway since the aboli- double dissolution andc forte the Senate to go tion of that Chamber than was previously' to the country, so that the opinion (of the the case. The samle conidition oif affairs public onl the question at issue many be ob- -hoold ble brought tiloilt ill Wcstern Aus- tajincil. This cail be done if the Senate eon- ti-abia. The Leader of the Opposition r- s.Ltently throws out legislation sent to it hy ferred to the franchise being a inarrieri mal's the House of Representative. franchise, and said that 999 out of every Afr SlePTrinrtr- Ynpiv QZnttu Wnda, 1-,. 1,000 married People had a right to vote. nom11inated Upper House. Tlhat is wrong. Although people may have :i home of their own the manl and his wife Mr. STYANTS: I think ,o. cannot each record a vote unlesRs the wife is llon. C. (1. Lathan: -Not now- .1 tsI ei- the registered owner- of the land aad the hers are elected by Parliamnent. dwelling, and the husband is anl occupant. Mr. SRTYANTS: We have not that privi- Hon. C. G-. Latham: I said they were lege in Wesptern Austraiai. This House con- entitled to be enrolled. tinually sends legislation to another place. Mr. STYANTS:- They are not entitled to Take,. for instance, the Fair Rents Bill that be enrolled. Thle same thing can be said was sent upl three times, in succession. of hundreds of married people in Kalgoorlie. Hon. C. G. Latham: You do not expect There are over 200 houses in the letter car- the Legislative Council to change its mind riers' district of Kalgoorlie, apart from Boul- within 12 months. der, in each of which more than one family Mr. STYANTS: I would not expect any resides. kind of logic from members of another place, Hon. C. G-.Lathamn: I was talking of thle particularly after the Leader of the Opposi- 114,000 dwelling hloal,,. tion in the Upper House there madle ertain Mr, STYANTS : I understood rte lion. comments upon the penalty clause embodied memiber to say this was a married mnan~s in the Bill. He either did not know the- po-i- franchis.qp tion or mnifrelresenjted it. R~on. C. G1.Lathan): So it is. The DEPUTry SPEAKER: The hon. Mr. STYANTS: If two faniilie~t are living memvilber miust not rvflect 111)01 a mem11ber. in] in oiW of these honse- thi only p~erson entitled another 1)IacC. to a vote is the husbanri or father who pa v MrIt. STYANTS: If what I said was a re- the tent. I know of hundreds of families inl fleetion upon a maember in another plate. I toy elec-torate, And neither thle fathe~r nor withdraw the remiark. When a measumre i, sent the mother is entitled to a vote. In 75 to the 11onse of Lords h)r the House of Comn- per cent. of the in-tanees of whichl I Ilomi' thee tilhle-; in] successioni. with til inl- ,prcak only one j'cr.,oi at claim a vote for tet nil of 12 mionths hetween each oeas4ion, the U-pper House. If the house is leas;ed that mfeasure then has. the force (if law even and that person is paying die rent no0 One though the Hfonzze of Lords. may not ptus- it, else in it canl record a vote. '"hlen a house [ASSE3MBLY.] is owned b'y a maried couple and the wife Mr. WV1TRlFtS: Possibly that is so. In is registered as the proprietor both lparties the South-West hundreds of married people can vote, but if thre husband is the registered throughout the timber areas live in w hat may owner the, wife is disfranchised. Tens of be described as reasonably decent cottages. thousands of people in this State are dis- These people, are disfranchised because some franchised because of this particular limits- pay 4s. a week andl ethers 5-s. a, week as tion. rent. If one of those cottages were trans- lion. C. G. Latham: Would it not be bet- ported to a townsite such aslPinjara ter to bring- down a, Bill providing for an Hon. C. G. Latham: Or South Bunbury. adlult franchise?7 MNr. WITHERIS: If re-erected at South Mr. STYANTS: Such a Bill would have Bunbury', Che- prenises would command a my support, providedl the Legislative As- higher rental, but if put Up in Pinjarra, semnbly had the right to force a double dis- it would probably be rcnted at 10s. a solution when the necessity arose. I would week. It is surely wrong that the person thent not have so muchl Objection to the exist- living in that cottage in one place should ence of a second Chamber. The sylstein be disfranchised, -whereats if the property under which we are now working is auto- were transported elsewhere and a few cratic. Although this Bill goes only a short shillings extra per week paid as rent, the distance alon g the road to liheralising the in]habitant could exercise a vote for the franchise for the Legislative Council, I in- Legislative Council. I do not agree that tend to support it for what it is worth, as it the individual becomes more intelligent or is a step in at direction where I think anl has a greater stake in the country merely amendment to the Act is sorely needed. because lie pays a few shillings extra in rent. It is difficult to Present fires, as MR, WITHERS (Bunbury) [5.30]: The the Leader of the Uppositioni mentioned, Bill is niot exactly a hardy annual, but simi- but according to the Assembly rolls, lar measures have been before Parliament on 20,270 persons are enrolled for the elector- several previous occasions. The Labour ates comlprised within the South-West Pro- Party, responsible for the introduction of vince, whereas for the South-West Pro- such legislation, realises the inequitable elec- vince 7,439 electors are enrolled for this toral system that operates to-day. If there year. On that basis about a quarter of is to be any definite distinction between those the Assembly electors are qualified to exer- qualified to vote for the Legislative Assembly cise the franchise for the Legislative Coun- and those entitled to voe for the Upper cil. Onl the other hland, it is difficult to House, it should be one relating to the free- say how mnany of the votes indicated in the held of property' or some such tangible Council figures are duplicated. If we con- qualification. I amn at a loss to understand sider the ntumber of women who are regis- why a miere penny a week is sufficient to enl- teredl as the owners of house property and franchise some and disfranchise others. The the husbands who are enrolled as, inhabi- paymrent of rent amounting to £17 per an- taut occupiers, we must recognise that de. num, which entitles an individual to exercrise duetions. must be mnade from the total of a vote for the Legislative Council. works out the 7,439 Council electors so that a com- at about 6s, 7d. per week. One lpersol imay parison may be made with thre number on pay 6s. 7d. a week for a dingy plat-e and the Assembly rolls. Some individuals hold he entitled to exercise the franchise, whereas1 highi Government positions, but,. because another individual who may p~ay 6,,. fbi. a theyv arc widowers, or perhaps ha;va ntt week for a more palatial edlifiee is disfran- maIrried, live in first-class hotels, where chised. Surely the payment Of a rentol they pay a fairly substantial tariff. Be- aimounting to at least £17 per annum can- cause such people have niot invested £1959 net be regarded as, a satisfactory basis for or mnore in a block of land, they arc not the Legislative Council franchise. Had we entitled to a vote for the Legislative Coun- adhered to the old system under which the cil. elector for the Council was required to have a stake in the country', the qualifictation would Ron. C. 0. Latham: If they have not even have repre~enited a more satisfactory basis. done that, they have not displayed much Honl. C. (;, Laihani: Values hiave altered interest in the State. since thien. Mr. WITHERS: Possibly not. [25 OCTovBER, 1938.]1-7 1547

The Minister for Mines: But tholusands that, as they are not qualified tinder the orf others have Jprodueed !he wealth of the existing leg-islation, it is uiseless to make SZtate. any effort to be enrolled. A few y ears Mr. WITHiERS5: Perhaps such people ago houses were removed fromi the have invested in Commonwealth bonds. grOldfields because there was nto deniand for Hon. C. 0. Lathamn: And thiat is very themn. Those houses were broughlt eheaplyI, profitable. for at that timelf renhts were verv low. III Mr. WITHER.S: Varvimr methods of in- those days it wals possible to renit a house vestment appeal to differeut people. I for in ucla less tin ii 17 per a nnuminad the could mention the name of one individual minhitauit foccupier wvold be disquanlified in who holds a highi position and has acted consequence. as a returning officer for the Legislative Mr. Cross : Of course, they had to pay Assembly elections, yet I do not think he miore than £17 to he enrolled. has a vote for the province in which hie Ali-, WITHERS: Yes. 0 nl account of' the liveg. That arises from the fact that he prori-ess in the golimining industry, that nierely pays board. individual could conitinue to reside 'in the self - lica. C. 0. Latham: He must have beeni s:tflW hous-e and ultimiatelY he required to single for a long- time. l)Ythree timies thle amnint of tile original111 Mr. WITTERf-S: That is so. Even witht rent and then he qutalified to exercise the the amendment embodied in the Bill, that Council franchise. individual will not possess the necessary Mr. Rodorda : Thut is the ahsurd part of qualifications to vote for the Council he- it. cause be will still be in the same position. Mr. WITHERS: The whole thing_ is The Bill definitel y does away with the or- absurd. Ever since T have been interested dinary qualification, and the person who in polities I have not been able to under- -will he entitled fn thp Uo-ie0nt0 lrun !tzalhly *Mui ,t b'.'a %iva eve' aioiIpteti. cii franchise in future will definitely be I canniot. sCe any particular virtuie iii an the householder, irrespective of whether amlount of £17 or £15 or anyv other sni as £17 a year or less is paid in rent. That, the fair basis for enrolmient for the Legis- I think, gets down to a more reasonable lative Council. I hope the House 'Will agree basis. The Leader of the Opposition inter- to the second reading of thle Bill and allow jected with regard to a Bill providing for it to go to another p~lace in timie to enable adult franchise. He possibly would wel- members there to accord the umeasure thie come Such a measure because he realises fair consideration that we desire it to have it would meet with. quicker despatch in front themn. We (To not wishl to indulge in another place than the present Bill is cal- demonstrations si as were resorted to in culated to receive. In the South-West of England in order to ag-ain adult franchise Western Australia, more than anywhere anid, later. wonmen . suffrage . On the other else in Australia, there is a greater percen- hanld, we do desire legislation to he passed tage of residents disfranchised f or the that will provide a mnore equitable basis for Upper House because of the provisions of envrolment. I supp~ort the second reading the principal Act. of the Bill. M.1r. Metarty: Those people do not seem much concerned. MR. NEEDHAM (Perth) (5.41] : I, too, Msr. WITHERS: Their concern may not Support thle second icading of thle Bill. 1 '1n1 Ibe apparent, because they realise they, do s-urprised at the miode4 v of the Govern- not possess the necessary qualifications. I nient in seeking merely to b)roaden the do not knowv that we need adopt the sug- franchise for the Legislatix-e Council. With gestion of the Leader of the Opposition thle mnemlber for Kalg(oorlie (1Mr% Styaints) and hold demonstrations, waving the red I would have g-one imuch further. I would flag and other banners merely to empha- have provided for adult franchise, or at sise our disagreement with the exkstingl least adopted the franchise for fihe election Atct. In this State demonstrations are not of miembers of another place on a, basis necessary to indicate our concern. I know similar to that which obtains for the election the people referred to are desirous of of members of the Seniate. The Commnon- exercising the franchise for the Leg-isla- wealth Parliament has just as important tive Council, but they appreciate the fact matters to deal with as the State Parlia- [ASSEABLY.) inent. Qnestions of far-reaclhig import canil bie brought about. It does not matiter in have to be discussed. It may be wveil to re- which House the Bill originates, be it thie member that since the days of 1014 when Senate or the House of Representatives; if the toesin of war sounded abroad and the either House has agreed to a measure and a world was deluged in blood, the Common- period of three months, has elapsed and the wealth Parliament has handled nlot only -sauw Bill is sent forward again and rejected, matters of Australian-wide import, bit a double dissolution can lie obtained. The those of world-wide significance. To-din' inl Goi-runient of the day canl call onl ti that Parliament questions are handled and Governor-Generail and seure a double disso- (cons-idered that are indeed of world-wide itti- hItion, and then all the members go to the loortanee. Willy-nilly, whether we like it or douty and the people say what shall he not, we are involved, as a young nation, in (]n.I had tin' good or bad fortune to be world politics. Nevertheless, to-day we find fl. aneinb1er of the SenatL When the only double 316 men elected to the Renate, representing, 'lissolnilion in the is.toryv of the Common- three from each State voniprising- time union wealth took place. It was Oil the question of pie terenee to unionists, and the Labouir known us the Commnonwealth of Australia, not by virtue of the property qutalification, Oppos ition in the Senate chiallenged a Bill but -simply by persons who are *21 rears otf introduced byv thle Cook Government to age, have been six months re(sidenlt inl tile a bolish preference to ttnionists inl the Coln- Commonwealth, and are of sound mind and inonwenith Public, Service. Thle challenge good character. Why then should it be was takenit up, and the country was appealed necessary in WAestern Australia to havre the to at the time when thle war h)ad just iniguli. p)roperty qula lification for enrolment as all The result of the appelal to the peopleu elector for the Legislative Council? Herein lihat the Labour Partyv was returned with a I see inconsistencey Onl the part Of somle of larger majority in both Houses. my friends onl the Opposition benches. The State Labour Government and Other As a Labour Party, although we are grlad Labour Governmtents that have precepded it that there is adult frunchise for the Comt- have been asked, "Why do not you ehallen"e monwealth Parliamuent, wie are not ill favour the Legislativ-e Council f Why do0 not you of two Chbambers. and part of ouri platformi go to the people onl sonc Bill that the Conim- is thle abolition of the Senate. But our cii hans rejectedi"' Since the Prentier mae friend., apposite oppose us in that. They itis -statementt in the ipublic Press regarding believe inl the existence of thle Senate to pro- thet action Of ano7ther' place ill again repel - tect the States, but they have never yet ing, industrial legislation sent frona this voiced an opinion in opposition to adult House, ire have been asked, '"Why 4o not franchise for thle Senaie. Taking them On you dissolve your House and go to the coun- their own ground, thle Senate is a ncessary try?" The people whto suggest the adoption institution if for no other purpose than to or that course (10 not appreciate the impreg- protect thle interests of tile States, and guard natlle p~osition of the Legislative Council. I the States against what ight be termned the venlture to say that this Governmenit :ind this desires of the House of Representatives, with party is possessed of sufmcient courage to its 'greater number of members. Not only bring about a dissolution of this Chaumber do miemnbers opposite desire a continuance of onl any~ industrial measutre sent to another the Senate, but they have never yet raised place andi rejected. But what good wodd ain objection to the adult franchise onl which resultI Let us postulate that the Govern- the Senate is elected. I ask any nmember mtent dissolved this House to-miorrow onl the opposite to say that thle matters determined question of the rejection by another place Of in our Legislative Council are of greater im- the Industrial Arbitration Act Amiendmnent portance than those determined in the Fed- Bill. Let us postulate also that Whamb~i was eral Parliament, where every member is again returned with at majority to Ihis elected onl adult franchise. The possession Chamber. Would that compel another place of property does not count there; one simpl 'y to pass the Bill? Not at all. needs to possess a sane mindl and intelligenceI(. Mr. MeLarty: Members of another jiam' Agin, we have evidence in the Federail would] pass it. sphere of a double dissolution, w1hich matter was referred to by the member for Kalgoor- Arr. XEEIJHIA3: They would not. lie (Mr. Styants). When the two Federal Mr. Cross: The memb11er for Mura- Houses are at variance, a double dissolution Welling-ton is not qualified to say that. [25 Ocroiswlt. 1938.]145 1549

M1r. NEEDHFAMX: Shortly after 14bi. opplosed,( hY ii]Mihei'5 of the samei liooitictil waos returned in 1936, fre hi fioni the (It'1 thought as myI' friends oppositv- torates and with :I mnadate to do certaliii Mr. Pal rivk : Wa, not at referent] iin laken tini r-these indluistril Il~lsiireCs were ill- first? chided in the policy onl which the panrty went MrIt. -NEEDI-: Yes. to thle country-the %-eny first legislation sent Mrit. Patrick : What was the rezanlt of the to another plaee wa.s rejected. I rvi'mIIIIr refeceud [til' attendinw a lecture by I v-ery eminent pro fessor of our University on this question oft M.r. NEEDFIAM: Not in favour of the thle domination of the Legislatii-e Counvil. abolition of thle Upper Hous'e. 'He suggfested that thle Government, if gpamie Mr. Patrick : And the Government acted to dissolve this As'e inhlr. copuld go to tile gans the wihes of thle people. people. This g-entleman is recog-nised as. a Thle C)EPUTY SPEAKER: I think we Coinstitumtional auithority. I was present at are now getting beyond the scope of the Bill. his mieeting, and] lie sand lie would be pre- Mr, -NEEDHAM: I can eon ned amy re- pared at tine conclusion to answerv anly ques- marks hy' saving that I would have preferred tionls. I, put to hint this question, "So ppost. aMeasure to prov-ide for adult franchise or the Leg-islative Assemubly were dissolved, andrl the abol ition ot another pla2ce. Let me re- ain appeal mnade to the people out a measIt*e minin.my friends opposite that ailthough their that had been rejected by the Lcgislativi colleagues in Queen-sland have since been in Coutncil. a nd the peolple endorsed the? power, they have nev-er attempted to re- me1asu~re, wvould that H-ouse then he eoni- establish the( secomd Chamber. I sometimes polled to accept the verdict of the people int1 think that memibers opposite speak with pass the mecasure?"' is answer as their tongues in their cheeks. Thoughi I re- cannot answver that question,' Constitutional grept that this Bill does not go farther, I am authority though lie was, he could not answer sure it iil not p)ass another place. I sug- gest to the people who wore responsible for would not chang'e their mninds:. they Would sending iny\ colleagutes and ine to this Chamber still deft this Assemiblyv. that even with the lpresent liimited franchise There is not the slighltest doubt that tile for the Couneil, they could alter the cont- Legislative Council of this State is tie mnost pl1exion of another place. If the workers stronglyv entrenched second Chamber in any of the State mnade up their mninds to get their part of the British Commonwealth of 1am11es upon thle Legislative Council roll1 and Nations. There was a time in our historyv exercise their votes onl polling day. I venture when the House of Lords was considered to to say they coldd effectively alter thle Com- be the mnost strongly entrenched second plexion of the second Chamber. Tfo my Chamber, but the position of the House of muid, that is thle only remledy we have. We Lords is not comparable with fliat of our (-in paiss this icitSLUi, and we shall do so, JLegislativ-e Council. As was mentioned by bit we k-now it will fail in] another ptlace. the member for IKalgoorlie, if the House of No mnatter what wve do, we cannot eject niemt- Commons passes a measure three times with- hers6 of the Council front their present im- in two years, and if the Bill is then not pregnable position. My last word is that if adopted by the House of Lords, the Govern- the workers gOt their Inmes onl the Council mieat of the day can present thle measure to rollI and voted onl polling day,: even under the His Majesty, and it becomes law. In dis- present franchise, we would very soon have cussing the second reading of this Bill. I no second Chamrber. should like to refer to Queensland, which of course is part of the Commonwealth. I be- MR. GROSS (Caniiing) [5.58] : This lieve that the people of Queensland are just Bill- as intelligent as are the people of Westerni Mr. Marshall: Are you opposing it? Australia, but in Queensland there is only a Mr, CROSS:. -affects one of the basic single Chamber-the Legislative Assembly. priiiciples of democracy. Our Parliament- This is no new growth; Queensland has had ary institutions will continue only so long aI single Chamber for many years. Despite misthe people canl obtain a reasonable amiount the fact that a Labour Government brought of satisfaction from their activities. about thle abolition of the second Chamber Mr. Sampson: The peole appear to be there and that its action was strenuously satisfied. [ASSEMABLY.]

Mr. CROSS: Quite a1lot of the old Euro- either a block of lanl or a building. The pean institutions have within living memory s~llze person, if be has at similar property been swept away because of tile slowness qualiicationi in each of' the tea provinces, of the process of reforming them. Ini this is entitled to a vote iii each province-tem State there is at large body of public opinion votes inl all. disirusted with the present systemi and thle Let ine poinit out hlow stupid the present present franchise for fte Council, and eon- Council fr-anehise is. I give as an illustra- seqnuitly onl the day of the I. egislative tion ani assumed] ease, though until two years Council elections,. those people knowing the ago such a ease actually did exist in Vie- impregnaility of thle position oclipied by toria Park. Furthermore, a, similar position the Council take ver- little interest in the could4 exisct to-day. .11a s'treet of Victoria elections. Par-k there were four wooden houses built Mr, Sampson : Everybody is not pleased byv the sanic contractoi-. These houses; bad with the Assembly. been sold to fern- different personms for £500 -Mr. CROSS: I believe allso that the utui.- 1-.i1-h. One house had heen bought by a man lie is disgusted with the -s'ystemn of enrol- with a gmown-up falmily. He himself was inent nlot only for the Counl but for this entitled to be onl the Council roll because he. House, and for the FeLderal Pliament1113 as was aI freeholder of the property. Nobody well. The reason is that the pnlilie. is -onl- else was entitled to vote for the Upper fused by the number of claimi cards nees - House in respect of tlint property. The sec- sary to he filled in-knowing fill] well that ond( house was in the wife's name- Conse- ,1uenrlv she, was entitled to he on the Coun- the q1ualifications are idvnt i.a 1 inl thle rase of the State and the Commonwealth. Unitil i-il i-oil as amslequitable freeholder. The bu- tenl years, ago. when thep defect was remedied band likewise was qualilieod as a householder. by a Labour Government. it was nesary Ini the third ease the house wvas in the names for the claimant for State and Cnnujn- of two daughters over 21 years of age, who wealth enrolment to sumLnboth sides of the, sucecessfully claimed qualification as loint card. The reason advanced lby the Electoral equitable freeholders. The father, being head Department for this requirement was that of the household, was qualified as a house- it enabled a comuparison to he made of the holder. Ini the fourth ease the house was inl the two sitnnatnrcs, of thle claimlanit. thmedeparit- uanc of tie wife and of two sons, and mental officials thus being- affrorded ani oppor- those tliree persons were qualified to vote for tunity to a'snre themliselves, that thle clailiant the Council. The husband -was also qualified .actually was tile person entitled *to thle i-ON'. beiiig the householder. If that is not a The two sig-natures. appeared one onl top of stupid slate of affairs, the number of thle othier, on either side of the c~ard. This Council votes in respect of identical prop er- tics, varying froim one up to four, matter was ]ertihiedl anid claimants arc now I have yet called upon to sigm oni~x' one side of the card. to learn what stupidity is. It would be a. step in advance if action were Then there is the leaseholder qualification. taken to put ani end to duplic ation between To be qualified as a leaseholder a person State and Commnonwealth in rega1rd to enrol- must pay a rental of a clear annual value nleait, eliminating the waste of time and of £17 after all rates and taxes have been inonex' involved in obtaining cards fromt deducted. I made a note of a statement by claimants for both rolls for the same quali- the Leader of the Opposition that a house- fleation. Ini the case of the Legislative holder can qualify for tie Council franchise Council the people are confused because of if he pays a weekly rental of 6is. 6id. That thle numecrous qualifications for enrolment. I is wrong. The householder can claim Coun- aoticed that the Leader of thle Opposition cil enrolment only if the place he rents is lid not enumerate those varied qualifications- worth £E17 annually after all1 rates and taxes Probably the reason was that the hion. gentle- have been paid. A leaseholder is not quali- nanl, like most members of this Chamber fied to vote for the Upper House unless he ind like most members of the general public. can definitel 'y prove that the lease has not annot enumerate them. The present quali- le5s than one year to ru-. That is an aspect icat-ioms for Council enrolment show sonic which emnains utterly unknown to manl'y :trikimg anomalies. Ther-c are five main people until they apply to be enrolled for -juaiifications. One is that of freeholder. A the Legislative Council, Another qualifica- em-son n4 own £50 worth of inter-est in tion, that. of ratepayer, creates an anomaly. ['25 Oaooas 193S.J

A wani can claim qualification as a rate- p~erty. He is then qualified to vote :io long as payer only if his name appears on thle rate- he pays a sumi equal to a clear annual value pavyers' list, of £17 after rates and taxes have been met. Hlon. C. G. Latbam: That is not so. If The time is long overdue when the system hie is struck off and is entitled to the qualifi- of enrolment for both the Federal and State cation, he can still vote. Parliaments should be simplified and unified, Mr. CROSS:- The Act states that it is so. and adult franchise applied to the Legisla- The hon. member should read it. five Council. There would then be no room lion. C. G. Latbam: Read it yourself. for further argumient as to qualifications. Mr. CROSS: I have road it more often The Bill is a step in the right direction and than has the Leader of the Opposition, and will make matters more fair for the electors. I know more about it than he does. Wheni We should extend the franchise to the adult the rating is on the unimproved value basis, population as is done in the case of the a person cannot claim qualification as a Senate. 'No one has ever railed against that ratepayer. Suppose an investor in the system. At present members of another metropolitan area buys a lproperty onl mort- plac, elected by a minority of the people, gage and lets it. Tihe tenant canl claim a can dictate to this House and control the vote as a householder, but it is possible tile dlesi res of the majority. purchaser of the property may have his Hon. C. G. Latham:- That is done in this umne on the ratepayers' list, and( have an House already hy the majority. equity of only £E10 in the house. Suich a 'Mr. CROSS: 'Not. nearly to the same ex- person would be qualified to vote for the tent. In the Mletropolitan-Suburban Pro- Legislative Council because his name would vince 30,000 people are entitled to be en- be on the ratepayers' list, and lie would be rolled, but they bare not one Labour rep- regarded as a ratepayer. That is distinctly resenitative in the Council. .Unfair. I have dealt with five qualifications, IMri. Warner: That is had luck, for them. Mr. Warner: Why* not save them Ip? Mr, CROSS: To the North Province fewer than 17000 people elect three members. M1r. CROSS: What T am going to say' now The Minister for M1ines: Big men too! -should be of interest to memibers, opposite. and prove the extent to which electors c-an -Mr. CROSS. The position is unfair. get confused. I refer first to the joint free- Mr. Hegney: A House of fat! liolder. A house or building inia he bought Mr. CROSS: I hope the Government will hry father and son. The5- mar live an- bring down a. Bill to provide for adult fran- where. but. so long as they have a £C50 in- chise. 'Meanwhile, I will give this Bill my tei'est in the propewrty. they are qualified as s upport. joint freeholder- to he enrolled. The next Hon. C. (0. Lathami: Let us throw it out qualification is a little more comiplicated. and tryi the other. Two persons may have bought a place blw paying a deposit of £500, hut may still owe Sifting snvnsded from 6.1!7 to 7.30 pa.. £C300 or~ £400 to the vendor. Beause thle vendor has an equity in the property live can MR. HEGNEY (Middle Swan) [7.301 qwalify for a vote as tlip equitable freehalder. The Bill contains very mild proposals for He can g~et on the roll and can live anywhere. the improvement of the franchise for ain- Then there are the joint leaseholders. Two other place. I was rather surprised to hear perisons may lease a hotel in Frenmantle and flie Leader of the Opposition say he would elect to live in Kalg-oorlie. Because both op~pose the measure. I cannot understand have an interest in the lease, they can both his; attitude becauise, oiln any occasions, he vote for the Legislative Council for the par- has -put himself forward as the protagonist ticular Province. There is yet another of the workers' interests. Here we have a qualification that is not greatly sought after mepasure that will extend the Council fran- and is not well-known. I refer to the joint chise to on increased number of electors. rent payer. For such a person to qualify The Bill does not go to the extent of em- fra vote hie has to prove to the Electo-ral. liodyving the adult franchise, but merely pro- T)cinartme~nt that he is paying his rent posals that will liberalise the franchise to a separately to the landlord, has his own rent slight extent. At the present time, 'the hook, and a separate entrance to the pro- Legislative Council is constituted on the 1552 1552[ASSEMBLY.) basis of a very restricted franchise, and the con template its continued opposition to members of thiat House have power to legislation that is backed by the will of the nullify legislation initiated in a House people. Legislation that the result of elected onl a popular franchise. The Council elections has shown the people desire, has canl defy the wishes of the majority of the bieen peremptorily rejected inl another people. The Bill will serve to clarify that place. The time is Jung- overdue for the position, make the Council franchise a little liheralisaionl of the council franchise, If more liberal and ensure that those who in- my wishes were consulted, I would abolish habit dwellings shall be entitled to cast a the Upper House altog-ether. All that the vote for the Legislative Council. There are Bill proposes is a mere liheralisation of thousands of people who are wealth pro- thle franchise. The Leader of the Opposi- duncers anfl are raising families and are exel- tion, who is supposed to be democratic in lent emtizens," yet becaunse of thle restricted his views, still adheres to conservarinui and franchise based onl sper-ified iltialihfeations pre- hos asserted he will not support thle inca- scribed in the Electoral Act. they are denied Sure of reformn outlined in the Bill. Ini the right to exercise the fralnchise for the other States of Australia the reform of election of memibers of the Council. Work- the second bralnch Of thle leg-isltre and ers throug-hout the timber areas and others the extension of the franchise have en- engaged in laborious occupations who con- gaged the attention of the people and of tribute much to the wealth of Wfestern Aus- Parliament. Reference has been made to tralia, are disfranchised] because they do not the position in Queensland where thle sec- pay sufficient in thle form of rent to enable ond Chamber wvas abolished. _No one can them to be enrolled. The same applies to gauusay thle fact that the legislation and the, workers in mining areas and the Out- the adiministrative Acts of thle Queensland hatk parts of the State. People who are Government compare favourabi vw;i th those doing_ the essential wvork of the country are of Governments in that State when the denied the right to vote for the Upper s-econd Chamber was in existence. In pre- House. Necessarily a second Chamber sent circumnstances,, the Queenslau GlCOy- ernurent is elected hr the peop~le and car- based onl such a restricted f ranchise ries out the peole's wishies. Speaking tWeds to become react ions rY and i-etrogre1s- frankly, I say that irrespective of whether sire. Manly of the members of the Upper thle Govexrnment elected on an adult fran- Hounse, are out of touch with the views of' chise be Labour, National. (Donntey P"arty the public or the progress of the timies. or Communist, any such 6Doverninenlt thaIt They vote against measutres submitted by receil-es a nmandate from the pcOpitQ shoud a Government elected on- an adult frain- be able to carry out its 1)01icy. Onl thle ehise and thereby defy thle will of the other hand, a number of memibers -A ti:e people. In times of srsthle nation ap1- Upper Chamber, elected by a pueentage pealed to the workers and to those betweeni oniy of the people. can, ill W\esterin Aus- the ages of 18 and 4.5 years to volunteer to tralia, nullify oir even defeat the legislative (lefend the country. Thousands left our propIosals that[ emlanlate from this Cb a niher. shores ostensibly to defend Australia in whichl is elected by a niajor-ity of tile foreign lands. When those nien retuned to their homepland. siil b ecause theyv people. did not possess wealth amlounting to £50. Mrs. Cardell-Oliver: But 1-011i*purlt%' rE- wecre not inhahitaut-oceupiers or did not presents fewer people than; the llInJIers pay rent amnounting lo £17 per annuml, they 'Sitting onl the Opposition side of the Houz-. were denied the righit to exercise a vote Mr. HEOFNNEY:Il InaV electorakte I repr- ill the election of nie1inlwrs of the Legisla- sen aboult 9,000 people, hut there are tive Council. The experience we hare had menmbers of another place who represenA in this State with regard to opposition to a few hundred only. That demnonstrates. measures of social reform submitted by a the voting power (he Leg-islative Couincil Government elected onl thle adnlt franchise, members l)os:nei5. is not in keeping with the trend of mnodern Mr. Rodorela: Anad they have three times. If the Council persists, in that nielnihers for each Provinrce. course of action that branch of the Legis:- Mr. HEG'NEY : A nman may he oif out- lature will he swvept aside. The public -will st.1anding ability. W have suchl 11144 ill the N-4 tolerate its existene: thei- will not comminunity, menl who I~~.(S knowledg.1e of [2-5 Oc'roBEn, 1938.] 155:3 a 'civ high order, anrd who, are acquainted port of tile electors whom I represenlt. Those with the sciences and [lie arts; and 'yet, be- wvho are elected to amother place to repre- cause they are not p aying yeret do1 not sent tile various p)rovinces of the State do owns property to the value of £50, they are not. in mn'yopiiioil, c-arrY out the wvishes denied the right of exercising the franchise of thle electors of the province,~ that re- for thle Leg islative Council. That is a j,05i- turned themt. I ain glad the Government tion that should not continue. AMmiv peoj)Ie has brought down the Bill. It does not vo) are confused as to their right to vote for as far as 1. would like it to go, bilt at least the Council. Every nieniber of this House it willI extend the firn ehise. I gi1ve the meca- who has engaged iii cativassing has met sure myV Sup port aurid hope the members of people who do not know whether or not they this Chamber who claim to be deniocratic ar enct it]led to be enrol led as voters for thll will show, b' their votes, just exactly how Council, even if the '- are paying Ii rental lmuchl tiley%are democratic. I trust time inca- of £E17 or over a vear or arc possessed of .sure wvili pass and eventuall v become law. property valued at £E50 or- over. This mepa- Onl motioni by Aft. CoverleY, debate ad- sure is anl attemlpt to Iiberailise the frani- jot''' ed. chise. It is not of a revolutionaryvcliarac- lcr: it is at mild proposal. Yet wve find members of the Opposition opposed to it. BILL-AUCTIONEERS ACT For the life of ine, I tannrot understand AMENDMENT. their attitude. They lwloiig to a party sup]- Second Reading posed to be democratic; t1e *v protest that Debate resumed from thme13Ith October. we onl this side of the House represent a section only of thle iptopie, but tha t they MR. SEWARD (L'ilmgelly) [7.441) As I rep~resent all thle people. Nevertheless, as %%as listerilg to the speech of the Minister I say? we find them opposing a measlureX de- w-hen hie introduced the Hill, 1 formed the .siglled to ii eralise tile 1ha ucise. I inipe Opin ion tlat tile ill tent on wats tit Horme I'-- that when the tinme comes thle eledtors will vision foi the issue of occalsionlal district knowv how to dleal with people who set licenses to aniybody who might be desirous of themselves up as denlocraIts, as su pporters conducting a sale( outside his own particular of. deinocra tic idealIs. but who are narrowv district, regardless of whetheri lie was ari and conservative iii their outlook. The auctioneer or- not. Some comunuciations that mnoderin social and political trend is towards I have reeived fromni[le counrnv point to thle thle liberaiisillg of [ile firancliise. In, jun v fact t hat tire same inmpression has gainted con tries Governments are swept aside be- ground in eountrv districts. H-ad that been cause of theirP reactionarI- political views, the iintermtion of the Bill, I would have had and other forms of governmnent are set up to oppos)0e it, bilt it is not the intention of the in their stead. If our franchise is not ex- Bill at aill. Unrder thle Bill, it is proposed to teiid(ed, tile ltme is ralpidlY coming when the gm-an~t occasional tlistriet licenses only to a people ill I no longer tole rate thle existillg person who all-end)l holds a licenise ats aLie- state of affairs. Personally. I thirnk tile see- tioiiccr. I %%anlt to tmakt that perfectly ond Chlamiber- is uiincessr 'v. It is unnees- phin m; hec-ause, as I sat-y, the opp)josite opinlion sar v her-c and unineeessar v in the Common- gained c-tlreilc-' after the inrtroduction of wealth sphere. Thle Senate. tholugh elected thlt Bill, although the Minister, wh-]enl iitri,- on alln adult franchise, is reailly hut an echo ducing, it, cleai-ly e!xplained tli tetntion of of the party il power, and Ilas been so for time Bill. thenpast tenl veats. InI our own State. where I ulem- thle existing- Act, tour diffecrenit tile franehisit for the second Chamber is re- kinds tiC licenses are issued. One is a general si ricted, we finid thatI Chamber not sup port- liceilse. which authiorisrs, anl auctioneer to i' the Government plected to earl)- out the operate t hroul,hon t the whole Slate, a il for wishes of tile people. Thnt Chanmbcr says which lie pa vs it fee of £25 a,Yeari, subject to tile GJovernmient does not 1)o. S(ss a mandate deduction if the period is less than 12 onl tllis o1 tllat miatter. Speaking for miy- monlth.s. Next conies tile country license, for sc'lf, I r-epreserit air industrial cornstit ueciy which a fee of £1-5 is chlar-ged, and which ut have been returined to Par-lianient oil authorises a p-e-sonu to operate in country three occasions. The mneasures tihat have districts, excluding, of course, any part of been rejected bty the Council hove tile sup- thle mnetropolitan area. Tile third type of 3554 EASSEMBLY.] license is that wvhich I have already men- places onl the date or dlates oil which the tioned, the district license, under whicei a per- sales mighlt take place. If a license extends son is authorised to acet q55i, analiooer in to seven dlays it contemplates more than one a certain magisterial istrict. Vor this sale. Ini country distnicts the rule has been license a fee of £.5 a year is cli ~i.The to read only the singndnir and to demand person so licensed cannot operate outside more thian one liense when there are two that area. There is a fourth type of license, sales. I hope the Minister will be able :o the temporary' license. That canl be issued (:larFlfY this matter ~o that country an'- to any person wh'lo does not htold an auc- tionci-is Nv'hen applying for a temporary tioneer's license. He is granted a temporary' Ilicenise may not be placed at a clisndvnntatw', license to operate at a sale if the auctioneer compared with those in tile metropolitan becomes ill or is unable to officiate for any aIrea. other reason, provided he canl convince the The Hill makes prov ision Car the granting magistrate that the application is genune. of anl occasional district license. Such a Before I leave the question of ten,- license canl only be granted to one who holds porary licenses, I desire to draw file -Mill- a license to sell in a certain magisterial di- ister's attention to a clifference in the triet. Tn the particular part of the country interpretation of Section 14 of the Act. from which I come the need for this licien Section 14 provides for the issue of0 is not so apparent. Ii seeking a reason T temiporary license to op~eiate ill ally' platce :It looked at the magisterial map), and T fauinA- any date. Country mag-ist rates have taken that Kalgoorlie provided a good illustration. that to mean that they call grant a Iicense I doa not know whether that is the district the only for one sale. In file cit. maglistrates Minister had in mind when hie introduced the have read the plural into the singular. If Bill. While RAlgoorlic is situated in the an a net joneer hats beeon unablie to (jieriate, magisterial district hearinlg that name, there soy, at Robb's Jettyv ini the iauoritn and :it are- three other niatristeiial districts (1 ite Midland in the afternoon, or at two di Itereli c-lose to it. Coolgardi0 is in anmother mnap-- places Onl two succeecil a days,, the ai- feri district. Other to-ns that probably' trate hits read the plural inito the sitnimiir would conic under the business range of a and granted a license to the auctioneer's firm operating in Kalgoorlie. would yet le noin er to oli-ite. )it e-ount-Y distric tA in another district altogether: and if an aile- that is [lot so. When the aplplication ha tioneer wanted to conduct a sale in that di,- covered two clays, One to] lowling thle other, trit. although it might conic within Ihis the plan hats been to demand two l icenses, om-dinariv business activities to go into the which is contrary' to the spirit of thle Art townl lie would be obliged to take out at dig- because the section I have mentioned indi- I riot license costing £5. That is obviously cates that a temporary license is granted for at disadvantage which the Bill seeks to over- the limited period of seven days. That beingu (no 1w thle granting of anl occasional dlis- so, the obvious intention is thati at two sales trcth license at a cost of E1. Is. at which the auctioneer (',a operate, Is norni nec should be entitled also to opernte. I I (.anl see no reason ion opposition to (ihe hope that matter will lie clarified. 11 cannot Bill. though there is one feature I hlope( will lie g iven consideration. I trust the provision be done in this Bill, unfortunately, becams., there is no provision to ;intend that ,a rtieu,I will not lie used to the disadvantage of mn lar section. licensed in a particular district. For inl- The Minister for Justice: 1 think the pro- stance, anl auctioneer wlay b~e Ilicensed to vision applies, to where the sale- Ia 4s more opleraite in the Kalgoorlie district, and a sale than one (lay, and not to two different sales. might be advertised foir Coolgardie, whie Mr-. another auctioneer mighit be resi dine. T do SEWARD: Section 14 stipulates itt a fee of one guminea shall be paid for- a tPni:- not consider it would be f-ail, for the Ka I- porary license for seven days. .1.(to not think, goorlie lmim to be granted at license to coll- a sale would be found to extend over seven tLuct a sale in Coolgardie, where another days. The matter was referred to the Crown licensed auctioneer was operating. When an Law authorities some years agoo by the auc- application is made to a mag-istrate for a tioneers, and Mr. Sayer gave a ruling in liecnse, there should he soame justifiable which he read] "places" into the word reason why thle resident auctioneer should not "place." His reading was that at license be giveni the right to conduct the sale in his might be g-ranted to sell at any place or own district. [25 OCTXOBER, 1038.] 15-3.

Mir. Stu bbs: Sonic auctioneers miigh t not over a position at £2,000 at year is a most be worth twopece. unuual and, I consider, totally improper Alr. SEiWARD: Sonic justifiable reason act. Somne little time ago anl officer of the inight be given to the magistrate for grant- Agricultural Bank left the service to take ing, the application. Certainly when a mail a position in private employment and for is followvingl the avocation of a ii auctioneer at -er'v long time payment of. the amount in a certain town, anl occasional license due to him for loing-service leave wvan held should not be too easily obtained in order up. Here we have a manl continuing in to permit someone else to conduct a sale the service of the Government. His salary ini that town. I support the second read- as Crown Solicitor was, speaking from ingf of the Bill. The provision is a good nlcnory, V1,000 to £1,200 at year. and hie one becalle whereas at present at license ha~s moved to £2,000 a year. Yet this Gov- for this purpose costs £53, the Bill provides criiieit Ilas so much itio11evy that it call that it shall cost a guineal. pany I his officer £62-5. Such at thing has Question puat and passed. never be Lore been' done to niv knowledge. Bill read a second ltme. Thie Pm-o,iir: He is tiii itled to hie paid for his services. In Committee. Iloil. C. G. LATHAM[: It that is so, lie Bill joissed through Commiittee wvit hout shoulId have been sent on his long-service debate, reported without amendment, and l avan tile a ppointaient should have been the report adopted. umade onl thle expiration of Ilis leave. The Premier: There was urgent necessity for lis appointnment. ANNUAL ESTIMATES, 1938-39. Hlon. C. G. LATHAM: The urgent neces- Ill. Committee of 9Ulpjoly. sity has continued for at least three years. Resinned from the 61th October; Mr. Duiring tlint time thle Ar-bitra tin Court has Wlithers iii the Chatir. .,eil, ."tlill i* f i ' o-tf.. The Premier : That inn Ic it thle more Vote-Crowrn Late Offlces, A:8715-25: tirg"emit. lion. C. G0. LATHAMI: Previously the HON. C. G. ILATHAM (York) [8.0]: Coverinment appointed Air. T. F. Davies to Since the Estimates were introduced tile relieve the President of the Arbitration report of thle Auditor General has been 1 tabled, and tile report contains a reference Court wh ile hie was onl long-service leave, and there sias nothing to prevent Mr. Davies about which I desire to g-et some informa- tion. Onl page 71 the following statement being appointed. The action of tile Govern- apjpears under the heading "'Incorrect Ap- mueat i's quite improper. if it is right that this should he done for senior officers, the propriationsi: Crown Law Offives (JDivision 25-). lIen, 1- p~ractice must ble extended right through the ''Salaries.'' A grant of E625 to \lr. A. A. .service.. When I was in the service an aci- Wolff, KC., Croon Solicitor and Parliamientary dent h1appened, so it was said, and of course Dra ft sini in lio'n of all leav du inc lu dinzg tile Government stepped lpaymenlt immedi- proportion of loug-sen-icc leave and accuznu- ately. If wie are going to pay one officer lated annual leave on resignatin, whlich was accepted by the Governiio in C_ouni-il as froin the for his long-service leave and allow him to loth 'Marcht, 192S. continue oii solary- at tile some time, why iiot do it for every member of the servie! That 1 have looked through the Estimates and sort of thing is not done for the ordinary the Public Accounts. I can find no cor- r-ank and file and it was a very improper responding amount placed onl the Esti- thin,- mates, nor- canl I find any in thle Public Ac- to do. counts,. I wish to review what actually The Premuier: It was a condition of em- occurr-ed. -.%r. Wolff was Crown Solicitor p~loymnent. and w-as appointed a Royal Commissioner Hon. C. G. LATHAMI: Then the Govern- to investigate certain matters for the Coy- mou~t should have waited until his long- Crllllelt..Almost immediately after con- terviee leave had expired and not allowed chiding his report, he was appointed to the him to dr-aw £2,625 for the first year of 'his judiciary at a salary of £C2,000 a year. To ser-ice as a judge. That is what is hasp- allow ain officer to draw £625 on taking penling. ,Ii7 11556 15(1[ASSEMBLY.]

The Premier: He carried that miotiy in The Premier: We would harve had the the Public Service and drew it on comple- whole industry of the country held up. tion of his service. Hon. C. G. LATHA-M: That excuse will HRon, C. G. LATHAM: The fact remains not lie accepted by members onl this side of that lie is beingr paid £2,025 for the first year the Chamber. of his se~rvice as a judge, Tire Premnier canl- The Premier: It would lie accepted by not justify (hat action. reasonable people. The Premier: lie earned it. Hon. C. G. LATTIM: -Mr. Davies acted Ron. C. 0. LATHAM_%: Then, in future. as President of tire Arbitration Court dur- when a inan happens to leave one positi irig thle whole time the President was absent arid take inother, hie is to be paid for his onl leave. Whether lie did the work efficiently long-service leave. TChat has not been tire Or nlot, I al not in a position to say; I policy of anyv Gov ernlmen t. have no comments to make against him. 'Why should riot his services have been continued? 'Pie Premier: We have not had to till a Whycoul not hie hrave filled thle position? positiort of that sort before. I do not know whether the Premier -noticed Hion. C. G. LATHAMIN: Frequently thek the reference in thle Auditor General's report. equivalent happens. Were thep officers who Even thle Auditor General does not sat that rocehtly received appointment to the Agency the payinent was not a proper orre. General in London paid for their lon-_ Tire Premier: No. service leave before theyv went Homne? Of Hon. 0. G. LATHAM: But the Auditor course not. Would the Government ag-ree General niust know thle fuss. that was made to make, such a payment to an officer who by the Mfinister for Lands because anl officer had left the State to take up a new position drawving about £E230 or £300 a year was under the Commonwealth? The trouble is leaving the service. Payment for his leave that the Gkovernment has too much money. was held up for a ]lng timie, bitt because this but instead of dividing it amiongst those wvho happens to be a man on a high salary, tire are really in need of it, the Government is Government, calli pa~ him £625. zgiving it to the highily-paid officials. No- Tire Ptremier: This was one of tire condi- where in the Estimates or in the Public Ac- tions of cruploynienit in the Public Service. counts is thepre anty statement of this pay- Hon. C. 0. TLATHAM: Every officer is mlent. entitled to long-service leave every seven The Preier: The paymient was for leave years and to two weeks' leave lianually. due to him. Long-service leave should not be permiitted Hlon. C. Or. LATHASI\1 Will the Premier to accumulatte. shiow inc am- item under Crown Law Offies, The 'Minister for Justice: You know that dealing with this amiount? There is one itemi sometimes anl officer cannot get away. of exp)elndituire for last year, "Leave oil ic- Hon. 0, 0. LATHAMI: There is not anl tivrment, £1,371," but there is no statement officer in tire ser-vice or a member of this was paid. showing. to whomn the money House whose place could not be filled by- Tire Premier : You (10 not want details of somebody else. everyv itemn. Tire 'Minister for Justice: You did not [Roll. C, 0i. LATI{AM: Details arc usually adopt that policy when voni were in offie(. giv-en in the Public Accounts, but there is Hon. C. G. LATHAMT: We issued very no reference to this itemn. I have never heard definite instructions onl that point. Let thle of such a thing, being- done before. Minister iniquire of the 'Minister for Lands The Premier: Such a position has seldom what happened about the Surveyor General occuirred before. when I -was in office. T insisted upon his Hon. C. G. J2ATHAMI: If tire Goverrnment taking long-service leave instead of allow- considered Mr. Wolff tire righit mian to ap- me- it to accumulate. What is lone-service point to the jrrdieiar ,v, it was entitled to leave for if not to allow anl officer to recu- app-Loint him. but lie shiouldl have takeni his perate? If an officer does, not take it, theni long_-service leave bepfore being appointed, long-service leave becomes, a farce. 'Here The Government has no right to pay* himi we ha.ve a mail who has been assistant Crown ,C625 in addition to his salary of £2.000 a Solicitor for a short period. year. Tie Premuier: Ten years or more. [25 OCTOBERI, 1fl3S.J 15,57t5

Hon. C. G. I-ATH AM1: Why should lie The Premnier : That was rightly due to his not hare beeii made to take his long-service position. leave during- that, period? Could hie not Hon. C. G. LAT HAM: I have not read have been done without? lHis position could thle whole of the Royal Conniiissioner's re- have been jininediately filled when hie wvent port, but a great deal of it could not poa- away, Fsily be put into practice in this State. The Premier: Do you think a solicitor is Thle Premnier: That mnay he so. going to throw up1 a practice to take a Hion. C. G. LATHAM:7 in another hunl- tiniporary appointment in the Service?1 dred years it might be possible to carry out lIon. C. G. LATHAM: There are menl in miany of the reeoniniendationi of the Royal the Public Service who could have done the Conmissioner. 1 do0 nlo complain about thie work. a ppointnemit of Mi. 'Wolff to the Supreme Thle Premier: We have omlv four of theml. Court Benchl, but piotest ag-ainst thle s;etting& Hon. C. G. LATI-AM1: They could hare upi of a precedent hy paying him ain addi- done thle work. I admit that -while Parlia- tional salary when lie was still inl the ein- meut is sitting a good deal of drafting hag to ploymnet uf the C overamelt. be d~one. Ili%OrnaS: By paying inti his just due. The Premnier: If we wanted to camnou- Pe~ was entitled to thle Money. flage anything we could hare given 'Mr. Hlon. C. 0. LATHAM: If thle lion. nin- justice Wolff £1,000 for hli; work as Royal her were sitting onl this side of the Hfouse, Commissioner. and we were sitting opposite, land anything Hon. C. 0. LATH-Af:. Ini addition to his like this occurred the proceedings of the salary?1 House would hie held up for a week or a The Premier: Of course. The money fortnight. It is one of the niost disgraceful would have been justly earned. incidents that has ever come to my know- Hon. C. 0. LATHfAM: I wonder thme ledge. I would iiot have mniided if MAr. Pvomipr dlid int (In flhat. T do iiot knnow of any Government that has fed men onl the and had been appointed to the judiciary top salaries as the present Government has ait the cud of that termn. Instead of doiiig donie. A highly paid official receiving a thait the 0-overnient increased his salary salary of £1,000 a year isq given £2,000 a from £1,000 to £2,000 a year, and gave him year by a wvave of the pen. This was done ani additional £025 because lie (lid not take when numbers of people were struggling to his leave when the regulatioiis provided that get at full dlays, work, Ini addition thle Gov- he should take it. ernment gave the same officer £025. I am The Premier: We, did not increase his surprised that miembers onl the cross benches salary, hut appointed himi to a position carry- should sup)port a thing like that. iuig the higher salary. The Premier: You are qjuibbling about J ]flt. C, 0. LATHAMI: It was anl increase manl who gave a report such ats thle Royal from £1,000 to £2,000 a year, Commission er gave for nothing. The Premier: Anyvone would think we Hon. P. D, Ferguson: For nothing?- ('o11d exercise our discreietion as to what sal- The Premier: For hlis ordinary salary. :iry1we paid. Hon, C. G. LATHAM: He was paid by the Government for his services. It doeA Hlon. C. CT. LATH1AMA: It was not neces- sarvn tolmpoint that officer a judve of the not matter w hat lie is called lillm to dIOpro- vided it is work lie was appointed to do. Sii prenie Court. The Premier: le was not appointed a Mr. Raphael: Yon had better not eoaiinit Royal CommIissi Oner. when lie mmasgiven a a miurder and be brought before him. post in the Crown Law Department. Hoii. C. G. LATHAM: I feel I do not Hon C. G. LATHAMIN: Why was he not care whether I coninuit murder or anything, relieved of his other duties, and paid aii else. The Constitutin provides for four appropriate sum for hlis Roy'al Comimission judges. I have noe fault to find( with the work? Hei was not only paid. but paid for Coverunnlent for appointing Mru. Wolff to thle his long-service leave, Suprenie Court R~ench if it thought lie was The Premuier: Because hie preferred to do the proper person to appoint, but there was the work in anl honorar 'y capacity. no need to appoint him a, judge of the Hon, C. G. LATHAM1: Then where does Supreme Court so that lie might assist in the £625 come in ? arbitration work. Mr. ])avies was not al- [ASSEMBLY.] pointed a judge whens he took the place of The Premier: We are not going to do -Mr. President Dwyer, who was away on long that. service leave, He acted as President of the Hon. C. G, LATHAM: The Premier Ar-bitration (Court, and was entitled to half ought to do so because he has already estab- the difference between his salary and that of lished a precedent. the ]President. The Premier:- No. Thle Premier: No . Anyone whvlo relieves Hon. C. C4. LATH-AM: Yes. He ought a judge gets the salary of a judge. You to amend the regulations so that any miem- cannot get away from that. ber of the service who desires to forego lRon. C. G. LATi-IAM: That is not pro- his annual or long service leave may he vided for in tile regulations. paid in cash. Not many would take their Thle Premier: The Public Service reg-- leave under such conditions. lations hare nothing to do with this. Hoti. P. D. Ferguson: One officer has Hon. C. G. LATETAMJN: I do not mnind the been turned down, anyway. Governmient paying hutsa £2,000. Hont. C. 0. LATHAM: The Government The Premier: We are paying the salary has established a precedepst. Since the to which he is entitled;- no more and no regulations have been in force I doubt less. whether any other case of the kind has lion. C. G!. LATIAM: There was no need occurred. so hurriedly to appoint Mr. Wolff to the Thle Premier: 'Nothing similar has oc- Bench. curred in the past. The Premier: It was done only a little Hon. C. G. LATHAM: Has any other earlier ,than it might have been. officer had his salary raised from £C1,000 Hon. C G. LATHAM3: Why wvere not to £2,000 a year and been paid £625 be- Mr. Davies' services continued as Acting cause hie neglected to take the long service President? If lie was doing the work leave provided by the regulations? Leave whilst Mr. President Dwyer was away he should not be allowed to accumulate in that could have done it for a further period in war. W]hen we were in office we insisted an acting capacity. Even to-day we can- as far as we could that officers took their not have two Arbitration Courts until the annual and long- service leave when due. law is amended. 1Mr. Justice Wolff can Mr. Cross: You tried to cut it out alto- only he an assistant, a commissioner to do goether. the work as provided by the Act. Until Honi. C. Gi. LATHAM: When we found the Jawv is amiended lie cannot be either a ourselves inl difficulties we suggested that President or a Deputy President of thle Ar- the teachers slhould forego their leave, and bitration Court. If it had been a question they agreed to do so. This was done on of one of the rank and file in the service, the understanding that they would get the a mnan entitled to long service leave, it leave later. At that time there was diffi- would not have been givenl to him in this culty about transferring teachers. way. The M1iister for Lands has already 3Mx. Patrick: If officers do not take their demionstrated that. In that particular inl- leave now they will lose it. stance I believe there was a threat that a Hon. C. G-. LATHAM: It does not mnat- writ would he is ued if the officer did not ter how important a man's position may get his dues. be, we ought to see that some one is avalil- The Premier: Hte did get his dues be- able to take his place. We ought not to be cause he was Justly entitled to themn. left with an officer whose services cannot Hon. C. 0. ijATHAMH: Hfe was not tihan be replaced. The services of Mr. Wolff in employed hy tile Glovernment, but even- the Crown Law Department were not in- tually he got what was due to hini. Let dispensable, otherwise he would not have its amnend tho law, and provide that ainy been appointed to the Judiciary. The OD- officer who does not wish to take ]lng ser- vernment has established a precedent which. vice leave may receive payment inl ]ieu if followed by the incoming Government, thereof. That is what this amounts to. would tiidoubtedly render it a very 11pm]- If the law is s:o amended, very few people loir one. Nevertheless the principle is ivill take either their annual leave or their wrronr. Probably the memnber for Canning lon- service leave. would he the most vociferous inl his attack [25 OcrOBEf, 1938.] 1559 upon the incoming Government if we fol- should not hare been re-established or re- lowed such a Jprecedent. appointed, but should have been overtaken by total extinction years ago. I have it in MR. RAPHAEL (Victoria Park) [8.20]: ily mnind to move that the proposed amount I have always been opposed to the existence onl these fltimates be reduced by £2.830). of the State Licensing Court. The court That will leave El to pay the salaries of was originally the State Licenses Reduc- members, of the court-an amount ample tion Board, which was created to do its for their qualifications and the work they work in six years. At the end of the six do. I notice the itemi showvs an increase years its term was extended by two years. of £82. The reason for that I utterly f-ti1 Then th~e tribunal ccased to function as a to understand. Licenses Reduction Board. Now it Ls a H~on. P. fl. Ferguson: That is because of Licensing Court. The attitude of the chair- the increase in the basic wage! man of the court towards applicants for Mr. RAPHAEL: It is neither my desire new licenses has always reminded mue of nor, my practice to invade the electoratm the attitude of a pig in a silk shirt. There of other members, but T do desire to refer to ha' e been exhibitions of Hitlerism lately, all ap)plication for a billiard-saloon license but prisons appearing before the chairman in y-our electorate, 'Mr. Withers. The ap- of the Licensing Court consider that he puts plicant happened to he one of air constitu- iler in the shade. Another strange Lea- ents-a returned soldier, a mian who w~as ture of the court is the nature of the sue- fore unable to do arduous work. HeI spent cestful applications. I am unable to state knocked about at the front and is there- wrhether decisions are given fairly vaid the sum of £E100 in Bunhury to set up a Justly or whether things are pre-arraiiged. billiard saloon. The police did nlot Oppose Uniucsfionably the chairmian's attitude hbas his application in an- xva'-; but the honour- never been fair and just to applicants. One able gePntlemann who i Anirman, of the maust lck askance at the number of hote1ls Licensing Court, after only' a small part of in rivhic Mr. Bertie Johnston is interested. the argument in favour of the applicant Every now and then we read in the daily had been advanced, said that the ease was Pies-, of Alr. Johnston or his dumniv or finished and the application refused. stool-pigeon, or however the person should H-e told the applican i definitely hie did not he styled, as being a successful applicant. wvant to hea~r anyth ina more, anil that tile Hon. P. D. Ferguson; How dlid hie -et onl ease wias finalised. Another insttancc re at Scarborough?1 lated to the old Pier Hotel. I do not knowv Mr. RAPHAEL: I do not know. whether members know mnueh about Bull- Hon. P. D. Ferg-uson: Were not You the bury. I read with in I rest a report in the successful applicant? Press that indicated that the miember for Mr. RAPHAEL: So. I do not drink Bunbury hadl given evidence in suplport of beer, and do not want a license. However,' anl application for the transfer of the hotel Mr. Bertie Johnston's successful applica- license. I congratulated thle lion, miember tions have always been a source of amiaze- onl being big enough to take that action and ment to me. run the risk of kicks froin other lpubliealls Mr. Hughes : Nonsense! You have known in view of his suggestions for an imiprove- the reason for years. inent in his electorate. About teal years Mr. RAPHAEL: Not all of us are in the ago I stayed at the llotel-hnt for one night happy position of being able to find out onlv. I was an extreinely uymntruh things like the bell. member inter 'jectingr out the whole of that ig~ht. does. In passing I may mention that start- The Mli nister for Mlines: Who was ing-price bookmakers are taking great with you? .strides in an endeavour to ascertain what the forthcoming legislation is to be'. They, Mr. RAPHAEL: What was with' 'lie j.un shops in the names of dumiesi. In nearly carried me out of thle bed. The live- my opinion Bertic Johnston has been in the stock were there in enormous numbers, and habit of doing the same thing, while retain- I assure members I was very pleased to get ing a major interest in echl hotel. 'The awvay from the hotel next day. flovernment ought to have realised a cer- The Minister for Mlines: They were there lain responsibility: the Licensing Court in their countless thousands! [57) 1.560 [ASSEMBLY.]

MAr. RiAPHAEL: That is correct. The Mr. Nelsein: I ititiied to theLWhole ik- years have rolled by, but no imnprovemnents triet. have beein effected to thle hotel. I rio not Mr. R-iAPHiA EL: That area include., much know about the brigs; [1refer to thle outer more thant the present towvn. Onl the 18th appearance of the hotel. I have been shrewd February, 1.9.d7, there were 1,206 residents enough to keep away from inaside the pre'- within at live-ile radiius of Manjimup mnises ever since. There are two other old Mkr Nuisoi, Have you an interest iii tin hotels in that street, and a first-class hotel hotel ? is the Burlington, at which I always stay Air. RAPIH'AEL: No, but a friend of in tie when I go to BunhurY nowadays. Ani appli hapipI ens to be interested, and hie is tiot the cation was submitted to fiph Licensing Court H on. Bert ic J1ohinson! I have beetn askedc to for the removal of the Pi Hotel, which present these facts and figures to the (oat- was not worth two bob and should have been in ittee lbecause the gentlemana concerned has. pulled diown years ago, if the Court had done been attacked onl two occasions and has had its job proIperly. There was anl application no oplportutiity to defend hinmsel f. H-euer for a newy hotel onl which £:15,200 would iitv desire to make these facts pul.liv. have been expended, but the Chairman of The Minister for Justice: Then I take it the Licensing Court, in his wisdom, decided t hat in this instance you agree witll, the that the application could not he granted be- Court's aption at Mlanjimup. cause of the presence of a sandhill that Mr. RAPHAEL: No, I am not in aezre,'- ,would prevent the air getting- to the hotel 'neilt wvith tile Licensing Court; 1 merely premises. Surely to goodness people who wish to correct the miis-statements that Were would reside in such a hotel woul d be far madIe in this House. more henaIth 'v with the absence of aii rather 11r. Nulsen : They were true; they% were thani with thle presence of bugs! Another not miis-statenients. application that the Licensing Court had to Air. RAPHAEL: I anm advised that the deal wvithi concerned one of£ the mlost up-to- total cost of construction is not available. date hotels in Perth. When the members as the hotel was built over 25 years ago but of the Court saw the plans, they decided has since been altered and enlarged from that the rooms as specified wouldi be too time to time. The cost of all the work would large. They caused the pln s to be altered advance thle total expenditure much in excess to provide for a substantial reduction in the of £295 ,000., Last year a very high rent was size of thle room11S. Mlen with the limited demanded, but it was nothing like as much knowledge of health, building, and local eon- as £22,500, as mentioned by the member for siderations such as the three members of the Kanowna. This was done deliberately in Court p)oses should lng ago have bee,, re- order to g-et rid of an undesirable tenant moved from their positions. Would] it not whose lease was drawing to a close. He had be far better for the local magistrate, tol- the right to renew the lease. glether with ivw justices of the peace, who Air. Patrick: We have heard that tale know the localities in which they function before. and the requirements of the district, to de- Mr. R~APH[AEL: As the tenant refused cide whether a ap~plication for a hotel to accept the offer, the owvners were able to license should be granted or refused? assume control of their hotel in June, 1937. Mfr. Hughes: Under those conditions there Only since then have they been in full con- would be some fun at Fremantle. trol of their premises. Mir. RAPHAEL: T do not know about the Mr. florist : W"here has tliat minlncone position at Fremantle ; the people there can n1ow? look after themselves. I wish to deal with Mir. RAPHAEL: Apart from beinig in statements made by the member for JKan- unsatisfactory tenant, hie had allowed the 're owna (Mfr. Nulsen) when dealing with the ptitationa of the hotel to sufter. Fr, ie- Mianjimup Hotel. He stated that the popu1- building operations bave been undeilaken lation of Manjiznup wa 5,000, that the cost since the owners as~uiM full control, and of erection of the hotel there was £25,000, they now elaimi that the district is advijuately anti that the rental demanded for a period served byv the hotel. T do not a~gree with of five years totalled £22,500. Actually their views. I do not believe In such a1 there arc 1,000 inhabitants within a radius monopoly*. Here I ag-ree witl, the nenmber of one mile of the Mlanjiinup Post Office. for IKanowna (.%r. Nulsen) and the ,,tmher [2-5 OCTOBER, 1035.) 156156 for Nelson (Mr. Doust) that if an applica- I now desire to dleal with the Licensing tion were made for a new hotel for that Court, about which the member for Victoria district, favourable consideration should be Park spoke. I also desire to comment upon exstended to it by the Licensing Court. some of the strictures passed on the Licens- Mr. Boast: What is the price of an Aus- ing Court when the vote was under discus- tralian whisky and soda at Manjimupt Sion the other night. T have no axe to grind Mr. RAPHAEL: I do not know, and the concerning the Licensing Court, but it did hon1. member can announce that detail to appear to me forcibly that the gentlemen the Committee. During last session I had comprising the court were not in a position the pleasure of supporting, with other mem- the other night to defend themselves. I know bers, an effort to secure the reduction of this two of the three members of the court par- particular Vote to £1, which, in may opinion, ticularly' well, althoughI it cannot he said should be sufficient. I received the support of a number of members, including the mem- there is a friendship between us. I have knowni them in the public life of this State her, for 'Nelson, Subiaco, and Albany, and onl this occasion I hope I shall have not only and believe they are above suspicion. I do their snpport, but that of others wvho voted not know the chairmann of the board, but the agains t the move last year. I trust mem- President of the Leg-islative Council, when bet's. generally will realise that the Licensing speaking the other night, said that if anyone Court cased to function long ago along the told Jiin Mick Cahill was dishonest, hewould lines originally intended, and that we could tell that person he was not a good judIge of very well revert to the stage when character. That is the opinion of the Presi- magistrates could uindertake these duties, dent of the TLegislative Council. I desire to- without any' additional expense to the State. night to put forward the other side of the The amount of £2,808 provided for the ease. The character of these men, their sin- Licensing Court could be utilised for a much cerity and their honesty, have been impugned better purpose, probably in providing work by various speakers. First, r am not in for some of tile people who arc now denied favour of abolishing the Licensing Court as it. it is constituted at present. I have travelled extensively in the back blocks of the country MR. STYANTS (Kalgoorlie) [8.40]: 1 during the last 25 arree to a fair extent with what the Leader veal's and know that great improvements have been effected olI' the Opposition has said with respect to in country hotel accommodation. T have in mind old thle ox-Crown Solicitor. An amount of £620 has been paid to the ex-Crown Solicitor for wooden and galvanised iron shacks which long--service leave that was due, but not w-ore liensed and -which probably were un- taken: he must also have received payment able to provide sleeping accommodation for for pro rata long-service leav-e. Such a pa y- those requiring it. The proprietors would mnlent is dciiiedl to public servants who arc staic at a person askcing for lodging aecom- aln Smaller w-ages and salaries. When I left tuodation. Those hotel keepers desired to the se(rvice of the Railway Department, I have as patrons men who drank heavily be- had eight years of pro rata long-service fore retiring and, when they rose in the leave toward my second period of 10 years; morning, asked for a fwhairs of the dog bitt the Commaissionler of Railways, backed thaqt bit them. I know that of my own ex- uip by- the 'Minister for Railways. rcf'ised to perience as a teetotaller travelling about in pay me for pro rata lonig-service leave be- the back country. cauise T was leaving the service. I was M_\r. Doust: Have you in mind the Pier leaving the railway service to become a mcci- H~otel at Bunbury? her of this House, but had I been dismissed Mr. STYANTS: I was born in Banbury, for unsatisfactory conduct, I would have re- hut loft that town before T was old enough cived payment for the pro rata long-service to enter a hotel to obtain a drink. There has leave. I shall tuake sonmc inquiries into the been a wonderful improvement in the aceom- payment made to the ex-Crown Solicitor- niodation provided at country hotels. I andI if I find he has been paid for pro rata knowv my friend the member for Murchison longZ-service leave, in addition to long- will say' that that improvement is due not service leave accrued, I shall have something to the Licensing Court, but to the Licensing further to say when we come to the Railway Act. Some authority is required, however, Estimates. to police the Act. 1562 [ASSEMBLY.)

Mr. Patrick: The police do that and that it takes them all their time to carry always have done so. out the duties allotted to them at present. Mr. STYANTS: My experience of hotels Consequently, if the Licensing Court were in the back country a few years ago was to be abolished, in order that the police that they were merely beer houses, with very magistrates might cope with the work they little accommodation. Most of our country have to do and the extra work that would hotels now compare more than favourably have to he allotted to them tinder the Act, with other licensed premises throughout Aus- other police magistrates or stipendiary tralia. My opinion is that the Licensing magistrates would have to be appointed Court has to a very great extent been respon- and there would be no saving financially. sible for much of the improvement; at any Nor would the system be as efficient as the rate, credit must be given to the court for present one. If we do away with the that improvement. Not all licensees require Licensing Court we shall (liif t back-it supervision. Some proprietors of hotels may not be suddenly, but certainly we shall keep their houses in excellent condi- gradually drift back to the undesirable tion. Others are not quite so satis- conditions that prevailed previous to the factory and they arc the people whom appointment of the Court. One can ima- the police and the Licensing Court must gine the chaos that would result from bar- supervise. I know of a number of old ing a series of licensing courts operating buildings that were carrying licenses but throughout the State with no uniform were altogether unsuitable as hotels. They policy and each independent of the were structural monstrosities; adequate other. It would be most undesirable. provision was not made for lodging ac-oam- As has previously occurred, widely different modation nor for the sale of liquor. With conditions would be established accordinig to a Licensing Court such as we have, a uni- the view of the different magistrates taking form policy can be ensured throughout the on the work. No two men hold precisely the length and breadth of the State. New same ideas. It is difference of opinion houses must be built to comply with mod- that keeps the world going. We should pro- em requirements, and old houses have been bably have in Kalgoorlie a certain set of gradually improved. I quite agree with conditions and on the Murchison or in the the statement of hon. members opposite South-West a totally different set of con- that the police exercise a great deal of ditions and chaos would reign in a very short supervision, but if we did not have the time. police, whom should we have in substitution I do not know what motives actuated those for themil It has been suggested that the that spoke so bitterly-there is no doubt Police Magistrates or the Stipendiary Magis- that they spoke very bitterly indeed about trates should do this work. the court-when this subject was being dis- Mr. Patrick: They are renewing most of cussed the other evening. The most vindic- the licenses now. tive persons and the greatest critics Mr. STYANTS: They do not do it in of the Parliamentary system of this State my electorate where there are more licensed with whomn I have ever come into contact are premises in a given area than in any other those that have been unsuccessful aspirants portion of the State, despite the fact that for office as parliamentarians. I believe this Licensing Court when it was a Licenses that most of those who are so vindictively Reduction Board delicensed 49 hotels. disposed towards this Court-I do not refer Hon. C. Gt. Latham: All of them have to to members in this House but to those that be renewed at the end of the year. The tell them tales outside of Parliament-haive court could not possibly do the work. made application to the Court at sonic timie Mr. STYANTS: The police magistrates, or other for a new license or for somec tyie of course, could not do it. Those who sug- of license-a, gallon license or some other gest that police magistrates can do all the kind-and have been refused. Hence their work presuppose that police magistrates bitterness towards the Court. ] a Kalgoorlie have plenty of idle time on their hands a few years ago an application was madle for and any amount of leisure, but neither Mr. a hotel license, and the Court righily decided Mcftinn nor Mr. Hannah, the two police that ther-c was ample provision for btoth magistrates in Kalgoorlie, will agree that accommodation and liquor already ii' ial- they have much spare time. They tell me goorlic and consequently refused the lieense. [25 OoBRon, 1.938.] 161563

One of the persons concerned started to tell Mr. STYANTS: I will tell the hon. memi- me a tale. I told him I (lid not care whether ber later what happened at Norseman. Cer- another license was ever pranted to Kal- tain members have referred to the person- goorlie, and if a license was granted I did nel of the present court as being in not care who got it, whether it was the notor- the nature of political appointments. It is ious Bertie Johnston or somebody else. I true that two of the men for certain-I do told him it did not make tiny difference to not know about the Chairman-but two of me-I was not an interested party. There the men, namely, Mn. Burgess and Mr. are people, unfortunately buth inside and Barker, were at one time officials of the outside of this House, without a kindly trades union movement in this State. But thought for anyone. I know peole who will members opposite assert that those were would not agree that it was possible for any more political appointments than was the person to have honesty and sincerity of pur- appointment of the late Mr. George Taylor pose. They are inherently dishonest them- to the Licensing Court or the appointment selves. of Colonel Lyon Johnston? We were not Member: INot in this House. uncharitable enough to say that they wene- Mir, STYANTS: I withdraw the appli- political appointments; but because men cation of the remark to members of this through sheer ability-and I assert that these House, because I must not reflect onl them; men attained their positions by sheer ability but there ate people who cannot understand and experience-were appointed to this that anybody can be put in a position of court, members opposite declare that trust and confidence in which it is possible they were political appointments. The by the sinking of his scruples and honesty Leader of the National Party-and if I am. to bring, wealth to himself, and yet be pre- wrong I will stand corrected, though this ap- pared to raise himself above pecuniary bene- peared in the "Sunday Times"-said that the fit and steer a straight course, because they appointments were regarded as political. are like the notorious Mrs. Tracey of old Mr. McDonald: T did not say that. who said that she judged all people by her- Mr., STYANTS: Then I am prepared to self, and knew they were all rogues. Dis- withdraw it, but that appeared in the "Sun- appointed applicants for licenses go to the day Times." member for their district and get his ear, Mr. McUDonald: The paper should have and the member eonscientiously thinks that indicated what I said and what it was re- they havc a good ease and consequently voices his opinion against the Licensing sponsible for. Court not only in this House but also out- Mir. STYANTS: I know that that is a side as well. Surely it was never intended common practice and I accept the hon- that Parliament should be used by certain member's denial. It has been said that people as a means of vilifying those in the members of the court had no quali- public positions who stand out for what they fications for the position. I have here their think is right and are prevented by the public records and propose to read them to nature of their position from publicly re- the Committee. One or two members have not only questioned the ability of the mem- plying to the charges against them. bers of the Licensing Court but have re- Mr. Nulsen: Do you say that 80 per cent. ferred to them as ex-Trades Hall secretaries, of the people should have their wishes frus- and questioned their competence for the trated? work. The first member of the court to Mr. STYANTS: Eighty per cent. of the whom I would refer is Mr. Burgess. Could people? I do not know of such a case. anyone find a more honourable or moro Mr. Nulsen: I know of one ease, worthy individual, as proved by his. Mr. STYANTS: I will deal -with the honorary service in most cases on be- Norseman application later onl. half of the public? Mr. Burgess has been a Mr. Thorn: It would appear that some- justice of the peace for nearly 20 years, and. body has been speaking to you. has frequently sat on the bench of the policf- M-fr STYANTS: It is not a matter of courts of Perth and Fremantle. In Fre- anybody having spoken to me. I looked at mantle he was deputy coroner, and was re- the files in the office, rcalising there wore gularly called upon to act in that capacity. two sides to the story. He became associated with Arbitration Court Mr. Thorn: I had a look at -Norseman. work in 1913, and was an Arbitration Court 1564 164[ASSEMBLY.] advocate until he was appointed to the of his honesty and integrity, as well as of Licensing Court. He has appeared in some his capacity and ability. He was a mnem- of the most important arbitration cases ever ber of the Fremnantle City Council, but re- held in the State, covering almost every signed from that onl being appointed a branch of industry and calling. In 1920 hec member of the Licensing Court. Mr. Bur- was appointed by the Mitchell Government gess has occupied many p)ublic positions, as a member of the Pries Regulation Comn- all of which have fitted birn for the post mission, and occupied that l)osition for two lie now so well occupies. Very few men years. This was not regarded as a political in this State have the outstanding expeiri- appointment because it was made by at ence and the ability of Mr. Burgess. Not- National Government, whereas it is so re- withstanding all this, some menibers have garded when the same indlividual is ap- referred to him as ix inexperienced 'ex- pointed to the Licensing Court. by a Labour trades union secretary, Mr. Barker, an- Government. I have here a reference from other member of the court, is recognised Sir James Mfitchell- ais one of the most capable men in Arbitra- Mr. .1. AV, Burgess, of J02 ILoftus-street, tion Court matters. For years he was one Leederville, was appointed dluring the termn of of the leading advocates there, .NMembers my Premiiership to the Primas Regulation Coai- who mission on the 1st .taauary, 1920, which lasted have had experience of work inthat to the 31st Deeeinbcr, 1921. le was also s court know that a man must be thor-oughly member of the W~heat Advisoryv Board front capable before hie can conduct arhitni.tion March, 1922, to August, 192A. cases. Mr. Bark-er's experience, ait thle time In both those positions Mr, Burgess dis- be w.as appointed to the Licensing charged his dluties satisfa etorilycad certainly Court, with credit to himself. would be comparable to that of Mr, Lionel Carter, who for a number of years hais been Irn the second year Mr. Buirgess was ap- the Arbitration Court representative for lointed deputy chairman of the Prices the Employers' Federation. Members op- Regulation Commission, and at the conclu- posite would not say, if Mr. Carter was sion of the work of that body lie was ap- appoiiited to the Licensing Court. that lie pointed by the Mitchell Government a did not possess sufficient ability for the member of the Wheat Advisory Beard. Ie work. I -would not say so either, for- my remained in thiat position until the comi- opinion would he that the experience lie pulsory pool1 terminated about 13 months baas had as an Arbitration Court advocate later. In 1925. Mr. Buirgess was appointed a ould fit him for the other position. I do chairman of the Metropolitan Milk Coin- not know a great deal of the other mem- mission, the other members being Dr. Dale, ber of the court, Mr. Cahill. He seems to then of the lk[edieal. Department, and Mr. be the gentleman who has caused most of F. Roberts, a successful dairyman. The the criticism to he levelled at the court. It commiission inquired into the whole of the isj said that lie is abrupt to the point of sources of supply of milk for Perth, and rudeness. That may be so, but I have inspected thle majority of dairies supply- never had to complain about him on that ing whole milk to the city. A comiprehen- secore. Froni what I know of hini, I do not sire report and recommnendations were sub- think he intends to be rude. Hle is of the mnitted by the commission to the Govern- Jack Blunt type that sometimes causes ment. The present Milk; Board is operat- offence. I prefer thes man who is bilunt in ing very largely onl the finding-, of' that expressingr his op~inions if, when I leave commission. Mr. Burgess -was a member him, I know lie has given me his innermost of thle Perth Gity Council for ten years, thoughts and true opinions, to the mian who and was appointed chairman of a special has a suave and oily tongue, and is hypo- coni'tice to inquire~ into the workings of critical, so that after one has left him he the City Enigineer's Department. As the outcome of the commuittees report mnany has expressed some entirely different opin- reforms in that department were effected. ion to the next peirson with wvhiom hie comes lie -was also chairman of a special commit- in contact. I do not think Mr. Cahill in- tee to inquire into the City Health Depart- tends to be rude. His style of approach meist. That committee was responsible for may bring him to the brink of rudeness, an improvement being effected in the work- amid cause offence, but I think he is innately ing of the department. I met Mr. Burgess homiest and sincere. He was appointed a about that time, and forined a high opinion meniber of the court in 1925, and was re- [25 OCTOIE, loss8.] 1565 appointed by the Mitchell Government in hie stied the newspa per for defamnation the 1930. He must have given fairly god ser- jury thought the allegation so well estab- vice to he re-appointed after eight years lished by the journal that it a"'arded him :I of otlice. -Neither his en pacitv nor his ability farthing damages. Would it be just to was qluestioned at the time, and in 1930 blame present members of Parliament be- the appointment was certainly not regarded cause aI former meniber of Parliament had as political, hie sat under the chairman- drugged a young girl?7 I do not care who ship) of ox-Warden Owen and Mr. Lvon gets a license. I am not interested iii Johnston, and was associated with all 'the licenses. I care not whether Bertie John- work of the court connected with the re- ston gets a license or anyv other citizen does. duction of licenses. Possibly6 no man knows I hardly,vcare wvhethier licenses arc granted more about licensed houses than dtoes Mr. Or- not. Cahill. and his exp)erience has proved of Noio' let tne deal %itt h ncNorseman- ease great value to the court. It may be said mentioned by' thmemember for lianowna. that whils these gentlemen have had a I have a fair knowledge of the town general experience and carried out many of Norsenman, hav-ing for Years d riven pulice duties, they had no previous experi- aI locomotive between Kalgoorlie and Norse- pnce in licensing matters. That is true. mali and frequently enamnped in the latter The same could be said of every place overnight and the next day before re- member of this Chamber. Until a turning to Kalgoorilie. It population is nian has been elected to 'Parliamnt, takeccisi the only basis, there should l)e ajiI hie cannot have hadi anv previous political adiinlhotel license in Norsenian, and experience. 'No member would like it to a prima facie case has been made out. From he said inow that after some years of ser- that aspect, T would say Noirsemnii has room vice hie was not capable of carrying out the for two hotels. But there is another side of work which lie was elected byv the people to thmeease,. the court's side. I had a look ,mt dto. The member for 2[urehison referred to "ot a.j1i%11i ~ 11 W, gt, Q it lirIet IIIi anl unfortunate incident which occurred in tory of the applicationi. The Freemasons. connection with the Licensing Court. I do Hotel "'as formerly established in an old not know whether it is a fact or not; I am wooden shed, one of those structural nm- taking the bon. niember's word for it. He strosities to wvhichi I referred earlier, not referred to at man named 'MeClintock, at in any way suited for licensed premises, ne time a member of the Court. The alle- especially when the district, thanks to the gation is that McClintock dummied a license revival of mining, began to grow. How- wvent into possession of the for himself, and ever, those who had bought into the hotel licensed premises after lie had ceased to be paid a fa irl.N' substantial suin. They were a mnenlbet' of the court. Assuming that to told by the Licensing Court that the pre- be true, it is grossly unjust that the present mises were umnsuitable, and that the Ilicense burden of a court should have to carry the would not be renewed unlessa modern, imp- sin ascribed to the court of eight years ago. to-date building "'as erected. About £20,000) Hon. C. G. Lathamn: Who is blaming the wits spent to provide a hotel, real ly mna- present court for that? nifleemt for a m mning district, whose tenum', -Mr. STYANTS: Rig-ht through, the in- of life can not be depended Up onl entirely. ference has been that the court was cor- About 18 months later an application was rupt ; an1 this alleged instance dating eight mnade for a second licemnsc at Norsemnan. years hack has been quoted in support. The only justifiable complaint made to the Hon. C. Gr. Latham: That opinion was court referred Io lodging accommodation. not bhl by' the 'National-Country Party Go- The owners of. the hotel said that if that v'ernnment of 1,980. was all the tow'n wats short of, they Mfr. STYANTS: I agree with that inter- wvere preparied to build another wving. They jection. The present Licensing Court should did this at a cost of about £.5,000. On tim? not be blamied for all alleged misdemeanour last visit or the court to Norsemnan, for thke of a juan who was a member of the court purllpose of hearimng ami application for an eight years ago. A member of Parliament additional license, the solicitor for the ap- was once accused by a newspaper of drug- plican~ts excused himiself for not putting III ging a young girl aged 16 years in what a strong case on the gr-ound that people wvas knowvn as "Tiptoe Alley," and when prepared to give evidclme in favour of th 1566 1566[ASSEMBLY.] second license were away at races in when there was a hig lodge night and a race Kalgoorlie. It struck me as peculiar that meeting in the town. The court agreed that they should he at the Kalgoorlic races on on the evidence the bar was overcrowded on a Friday, seeing that the races would not Saturdays, which is common to every hotel be run till the Saturday. If those people in every goldficlds district. were really interested in securing a second Mr. Nulsen: That is wrong. license at Norseman, which is only a huii- Mr. STYANTS: I will speak for my own d1red miles from Kalgoorlie, they could have district, and say positively that that applies remained in Norseman to give evidence and there. then gone to Kalgoorlie on Saturday Mr. Nulsen: I was speaking of Norseman. morning, arriving in plenty of time for the I know definitely what the position was. races, A couple of witnesses deposed that Mr. STYANTS: The hon. member should the bar of the existing hotel was undul~y have produced the evidence to show that crowded on Saturdays and over week-ends. what lie stated was correct. During the Can any member mention a hotel in the course of his speech hie quoted three wit- -metropolitan area that is not crowded every nesses and read their testimony. Each wit- Saturday afternoonl That is the case in ness referred to the over-cro-wding at wcek- Kalgoorlie and Boulder, where customners ends. I have not been in Norseman f or stand five and six deep at the bar on Satur- nearly three years and I am putting up the .day afternoons. case on behalf of the court in justice to men Mr. Nulsen: It is not crowded on Satur- who have done their duty conscientiously and day afternoons only. will not tolerate any outside or inside influ- Mr. STYANTS: No witness was produced ence brought to bear by memibers of Parliq- to testif y that the bar was crowded at any Ment. other time. 3Mr. Nulsen: I claim I was quite jnstified Mr. Nulsen : What did the police have to in my attitude. say? Mr- STYANTS: I have put the case for Mir. Patrick: The police advocated a the court, the members of which say they second license. compelled the two owners to pay a high price Mr. STYANTS:- On what ground? for the old Freemasons Hotel and requiredl Mr. Patrick: The sergeant of police advo- them to spend about £20,000 on the provision rfated it. of a now hotel. The court required a good Mr. STYANTS: But on what ground? class of building to be erected, and when, Mr. Patrick: That the police could better after about 18 months, it was shown there look after two licenses than one. was a shortage of accommodation for Mr. STYANTS: Not that there was any lodgers, compelled the owners to spend a general lack of accommodation either in the further £5,000 on the erection of another bar or in the rest of the structure. wing to provide the necessary additional Mr. Thorn: Is all this on the fle? accommodation. The court claims definitely Mr. STYANTS: The evidence is on the that there was not sufficient business to court records. When I make investigations justify the granting of another license, and I make them thoroughly, with both eyes open that as it had compelled the others to spend and with the desire to get a view of both over £25,000, the owners should be given a -sides of the ease, and not a prejudiced view. reasonable time within which to get their Mr. Thorn: The file should not he avail- money hack. aLble to outsiders. If you wanted the file, Mr. Nulsen: They have had a reasonable you should have moved for it here. time. Mr. STYANTS: I have inspected files in Mr. STYANTS: They have not. mcores of Government offices. Mr. Nulsen: Of course, they have. Mfr. Thorn: You must he privileged. Mr. STYANTS:- I was there when the first Mr. STYANTS: I amn not privileged, but hotel was erected; I drove the "Norseman the officers know that if a mnatter is regarded Flyver" and I also worked the shift there for ais confidential I treat it as such. The only taking, the train back. complaint against the present hotel in Norse- Mr. Nulsen: But T have lived there. man is that on two nights the lodging accom- Mr. STYANTS: The estimate given by inodation was inSuI~liint. That happened the membor for Kanowna rigarding the rent [25 Ocrosun, 1938.] 156716 paid for the hotel at Norseman, was based o" Mr. Patrick: At any rate, you should nol mere assumption and there was not a vestige say that another member's statement wai of truth in his statement. without a vestige of truth. Mr. Nulsen: I referred to the rent for Air. STYANTS: I will repeat that state. the two places, not for the one hotel. ment. Mr. STYANTS: The rent that the hon. Mir. Patrick: You should not be allowed miember stated was paid for the _Norsemnan to do so. hotel was not correct. Mr, STYANTS: It is all right for thE Mir. Nulsen: I included the rent for the member concerned to ask for a statemnent tc old hotet ais well. he withdrawn, but he will not get much sup- Air. STYANTS: The hon. member should port when we are asked to deal with othex have said so. He merely stated that a cer- important matters. tain amount of rent was being paid for the 'Air. Thorn: You will see, hotel, and I am prepared to say that his The Minister for Mines: We have seen toc statement was based on mere assumption and of ten. was incorrect. Ai-r. STYANTS: I do not doubt that tbert Mr. Nulsen: You are telling me something wilt be plenty of support for opposition t( ahont my own district? the court from both sides of the House or ii Mr. STYAiNTS: I cannot tell the lion. an endeavour to put the Licensing Court err member anything about the hotels in his of existence under a cloud of snspicion ani district because he is interested in hotels innuenido-because three Labour men weri there, and he probably knows a lot more appointed to the licensing bench. than I do about the licensed premises. 31r. Patrick: They were appointed by yami Nevertheless, I do not care who the miember Government. may be, if he submits ex-parte statements to Air. STYANTS: I am answering ant attaci the Committee in connection with any sub- made upon them. ject, and I hauppen to jiahd vktL ihh ut z Mir. Tslorn: But thiaL aitark catue £runu wrong, I propose to give members generally your owvn side. the correct details. Mr. STYANTS: The report in "Hansar& Mr. Nulsen: What I stated was correct. will prove that the attack came from hotl Mr. STYANTS: The rent that the lion. sides of the Hlouse. member saidl was being paid for the new M~r. Nulson: I did not advocabe the alf hotel at 'Norseman was incorrect. tion of the Licensing Court; I spoke againrs Mr. Nulsen: I repeat that what I stated its policy. was correct. Mr. STYANTS: I have endeavoarcd t( Mr. STYANTS: The hon. member could deal with the matter from the Licensing not be in a position to say whether these Court's point of view. Knowing thi men had had a reasonable period within three members. of the court as well as I do which to secure a return of their capital ex- I am convinced that if they refuse to grani penditure. an application for a license, they wit. Mr. Nulsen: But they leased the hotel. have very good ground for their action. NV( If they had wanted to get the capital back, should give the members of the court credit they could have run the hotel themselves and when they arrive at a decision, for doing sc the return of their capital. secured conscientiously, believing they were doing Mr. STYANTS: If we accept the weekly and have their best for the community, without mem. rent the hon. member mentioned, hers of the Committee indulging in in- regard for the lapse of time, it will be seen. upon the honesty oi they could not have got much more than nuend os or reflections that sincerity of purpose of the Court. If mem- half their capital back by now. bers think the court has outlived its useful- The CHAIRMAN: Order!l Wilt the mem- ness, and has achieved the object for which bper for K~algoorlie address the Chair instead it was established at the outset, then I of the member for Kanowna. would advise them to wait until the earl of Mr. Nulsen: At £100 a week for five years. August. next, when the period of the ap- The CHAIRMAN: Order! The member politment of the Court terminates. The for Rtanowna has made his speech. members of the court can then go out of -Mr. STYANTS: It is a mere matter of office with flying colours. The court is a arithmetic. statutory body crecated by Parliament, and, [ASSEMBLY.]

in my opinion and inl that of' tliousanidis of flon. P. 1), Ferg-uson: Of course vont are:. people throughout coitrxy diistricts. ha, every meniber of the Committee is, under done particularly 20011 work. .1 would not suspicion. like it to go out of esisteiee uinder aIcloild 3Mr. STYAN'rS: I do not prop-ose to name of suispiclin andt inn~uend~o, wvith reflections them.l upon its hionesty and straighit dealings, based Mr. Marshall : Whno has duiie what you entirely upon 31siiiOhI. s5uggest? MN-r.Marshall: I will glianitee that be- fore you wo homne tn-igh-t. T will give you Mr. STYAXS : Itf the liont, member likes, J. will mention plenty of facts not based oil slillli. the names oujtside this Chiamlber, after I have obtained the per- Mr. STYANTS: That is Al veric well. but mission of the Licensing Couit to do so. f the hon. mnibe r is prepa:4red tn 1nake What is more, I will not, under privi- his stateinents outside, that will he tin' avid lege ill this House, make accusations test. agmdinst memibers that I liii not pr'e- Mr. M~arshali : Why didi von not find( ot pared to repeat outside thle House. about the court'Vs action regarding" the gA- Onl another night, if any member who has Ion license at Wiluna and other imatters I seen the Licensing Court wants his name mentioned ? disclosed inl the House, I shall be prepared Mr. STYANTS : I mini nol interested iii to give it, but at present I cannot. That is t b1enl] a-n undertaking, providing I get permission Mi.. Marsh all : You ;vene in I 're-Aed enlough froms the mnembers of the Court. to go downl and get thle files. Hon. P. D). F4erguson: You need not wit MNr, STYAN'rS : You dill not mention for their permission to disclose mysname. that to moe. Mr. S3TYANTS: That is all I have to say, except to add that I was particularly con- Mr. Marshall : Yes, 1. did, and tIlecourl cerned about the statemients made respecting (lid not give you that informlation., the members of the Court, whom I know to Mr. STYANTSZ I amn not concerned ;it be reptable citizens. I (10 not favour tlme all as to whether thle court graiitei any abolition of (lie Court. which has carried license or, ini its judgmient, refuised :n gallon01 out excellent work. license. I in not interested in thle liquor business, njor ail I likely to lie. What is MR. HUGHES (East Perth) [9.32] :Inl more, when the eourt goes to inl district to the discussion onl thle Licensing Court one hear anl applicationt for amnew license, anti imnportant point has beens overlooked. The decides for or agalinst it. 1 don mot :Ilproac-li fundamental trouble with the Court is that thle mnemibers of that Court. ais somle other no app~eal lies fromn its dlecisions. When memlbers dto, and endeavour to get themn to thie Lic-ensing Court was established, it be- alter theimr opinions and( their decisions. I raine a Jud~ici:Il tribunal from wxhose deci- leave such matters to the integrity and sions there was ito app~eal ; and, with such a honesty of thle members of. the court. tribunal, there must be all sorts of coin- H-In. P. D. Ferguson: Do menibers of plaints. The Court should lie made subject Parliament do what you assert? to appeal. No one would be adversely, Mr. STYrANTS: Yes. affeeted if it Were, because the people in MAr. Marshall: Who are they? the hotel business are all wvell off; the oh- Mr. Patrick: Yes,. namne them. tainig of hotels, is not a poor man's pas- Mr. STYAN_\TS : Why shionld I namiie time. Therefore, if the right of appeal themn? against time Court's decision -were given, the M r. Mmashll : Of course, youl Ought to pool-' man would not be crowded out of thle name themn. bus-iness. If tile Court's decision were sub- jeet to appeal, mnuch of the suspicion against Mr. Thornt: You made (lie chargwe. it would be removed, because dissatisfie d Mr. STSTANTS: That is for m~e to de- parties wouldl he enlabled to go to a higher eide. tribunal and( obtain an authoritative judg- lon. P. D. Ferguson: You bilk,-d about inent. The higher tribunal would lay down innuendoes, and now%you are indulging_! inl the law in a proper way, and that would them. serve as a guide for thie TLicensng Court in Mr. STYAN\1TS: I amn not. future. The next thing wrong with the [25 OCTOBER, 1938.] 150910

Licensing Court is that its members are aip- leged in seeing the confidential Court files; pointed for only three years. The reason apparently I ami not in the right social we appoint our judges for life is that they stratum to get them. The position put for- may have nothing for which to hope from ward by Senator Johnston was this: I do the executive power of this State, nor ay not know whether he told inc the right thing to fear. They make decisions which facts or not, but I canine to the conclusion, appear to them to be just. They have no after listening to his talk, that he, like most fear of losing their appointment and there other people who are struggling to get is 110 likelihood of their getting any reward. hotels, was running each of his hotels at a Thvaefree and unfettered in the exercise loss. o ierjudgment. Tedecisions of judges The Minister for M.%ines: That is why are also subject to appeal, until we reach he keeps on getting them. bnae Prv Coni, which is our highest tri- Mr. HUGHES: Yes. Most people in the bua.In that way the integrity of our hotel businiess whom I know say the same judiciary is maintained. The public feels thing, yet they' are always acquiring addi- every confidence in the judiciary. People tional hotels. I have ao hesitation in say- know that if a judge gives an incorrect de- ing- for the edification of the macmber for cision-and that happens very frequently-- K'algoorlie that the obtaining of the license they can appeal and get it altered by a for the Captain Stirling- Hotel at Nedlands higher tribunal. The members of the Licens- was corrupt. I have said so outside the ing Court are appointed for three years only House repeatedly; I have Iput it in writing and therefore are likely to come and go with an d circulated it throughiout thme State. Governments. Each member of the Licens- Mr. Styants: Many things you have put ing Court must consider whether or not he in print have not been proved. may be giving offence to the reigning powers 'Mr. HUGHES: Tell ine some of them. and so endangering his reappointment. That The Premier: It did not have mnuch effect, is the trouble with the Licensing Court. I either. hope we shall not establish a similar tribunal Mr. HUGHES: I do not know. to deal with starting-price betting, because The Premier: I amn telling you. WNhy if we do so, we shall in twelve mnonths have say you do not know? exactly the same complaints about it. The Mr. HUGHES: I think it dlid have a con- real complaints about the Court were that siderable effect. The position -regard'ing certain prominent members of this House the Captain Stirling Hotel was this were dumnying licenses. It is most unfor- The Premier: We have heard it before. tunate in my opinion that the m-ember for Mr. HUGHES: Do not you want it again ? Victoria Park should have singled out Sena- The Premier: We do not want repeti- tor E. B. Johnston, and said that he was tion. dummvin& licenses, but should not have dis- Mr. HUGHES: Seeing there is inuch cri- closed, as he well knew, who wvere the part- ticismn from the opposite side of the House ners of -Senator Johnston. I propose to give the facts about the Cap- Mr'. Raphael: The partners 7 tain Stirling Hotel and the other hotel con- Mr. HUGHES: Yes. cerned. Mr. Raphael: He has about 40. 1 do niot The Premier: Have not you dlone so he- know them all. fore? Mr. HUGHES: According to his apeech Mr. HUGHES: Yes, and I propose to do the hon. member did not know. so again. Mr. Raphael: I do not know all his part- The Premier: I thought you intended to ners. He has 40 hotels in the State. give uts something fresh. Mr. HfUGHES: I will supply the omis- Mr. HUGHES: This was the position sion. I hold no brief for Senator Johnston. with respect to the Captaiin Stirling Hotel: Ile says I ruined his business, and that the members of the Licensing Court arc lie will not get another license after m3y reappointed every three years. It was criticism in this House of his Captain Stir- found that two of the Cabinet Ministers, ling Hotel. T have discussed the position the late Mr. McCallum- with Senator Johnston. I have also dis- The Premier: Oh! cussed it with Mr. Cahill, the Chairman Mr. HUGHES: -and Mr. Collier, who of the Licensing Court. I was not privi- had the appointment of the members of [ASSEMBL~Y.I

the Court in the Palms of their hands, were £10,000, for nothing Why enter into such secretly iii partnership with Senator John- an arrangement? ston in the obtaining- and conducting of The Minister for M.%ines interjected. Motels. That is the view Senator Johnston Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member canl see put forward, and from his standpoint I the whole of the tranisactioni set out in three .think it is sound. secret documents that are secret no longer. The Minister for Mines: Then it is about The documents are in existence, signed by the only viewpoint of his that is. the parties. The hon. member need not take a Cab- Mr. HUGHES: Hec declared that anybody's word; he can see the written docu- inet Minister approached him and said, "If ments setting out the transactions. The only you find the money to finance the hotel we reason Johnston would give away a share in canl get a license for it at the Captain Stir- a hotel worth anything from £6,000 to ing," and the condition is that Johnston has £10,000 was because lie thought that wvas the to fnd all the money,. and if the license is only way he could get a license. Johnston granted the Cabinet Miniister shares in halt would not give away 6s. to a Cabinet Minis- the goodwill of the hotel without putting ini ter unless he thonght lie was obtaining some- a penny-piece. thing for it. "Mr. Lambhert: Do you suggest that that 'Mr. Raphael: Would hie give it away to ,was necessary when a Cabinet Minister could anyone else? get a license out of his own p)ocket? Mr. Lambert: It must have been very cor- The CHAIRMAN: Order! rupt, when he registered all the documents -Mr. HUGHES: There would be nothing to in the Supreme Court, so that they are avail- stop any Cabinet Minister from going to thc able to you and anybody else! Licensing Court and ql)l)lyin.g for a license. Mr. HUGHES: That shows what state- I for one would not raise any objection. ments hon. members are prepared to maWc. Why did not Cabinet Ministers go to the The hion. member knows veryv well that not court, and say that as Cabinet Ministers they one of those three documents is registered inl wanted a license for this hotel? Why did the Supreme Court, and there is no provision they not do it in their own names? Why go in the Supreme Court for registering that to Johnston and say, "If you will find all type of document. Yet the hon. member the money to finance the hotel, we can get comes to this House and tries to dispute a the license"? fact that is incontrovertible, and says Utat The Minister for Mines: You arc taking these documents are registered in the court. Johnston's word for that, of course. Mr. Lambert: I presumed they were, be- Mr. HUGHES: 1No, I am relying on other cause they were available to you. I do not documentary evidence that was signed not knowv; I could not say. ,onliy by Johnston but by the other people. Mr. HUGHES: The lion. member says lie Mr. Lambert: You know it is not neces- could not say; but lie did say. sarv to go to Johnston or anybody else to Mr. Lambert: I presumed they were regis- get money for a license for a pub. tered when you made the statement that they Mr. HUGHES: I do not know; I have were available. I do not know; I could not never tried to get one. But when a Cabinet say. Mlinister goes to Johnston and says, "You Mr. HUGHES: The hion. member does not id the money, and if we get tile license I know! But in order to cover up and mis- ami to have a half share"- represent the position he makes a statement Honl. P. D). Ferguson: Were they pact- that those documents are in the Supreme iiers? Court and are available to anyone. Mr. HUGHES: Johnston enters into ali Mr. Lamnbert interjected. arrangement that he has to find all the money The CHAIRMAN: Order! and has to give away a half interest iii the Mr. HUGHES: Of course it was unfor- eooedwill when the license is obtained. Why tunate for the hon. member that there were should Johnston give a Cabinet Minister- certain documents in the Supreme Court in The Minister for 'Mines: That is a. new connection with manganese that 1, because Bertie Johnston. of certain training, was able to interpret. Mr. HUGHES: -an interest in a The CHAIRMAN: 1 (10 not know what hotel valued at anything from £6,000 to that has to do with the question. [25 QCTODEP, 1933.] 171571

-Mr. HUGHES: I do not know why the Mr. HUGHES: I said in connection witi hon. member was permitted to interject in the Licensiag Court. that strain. The Premier: You are suggesting th4 Mfr. Styants: This is one of the charges wvorst against the Licensing Court. the member for East Perth failed to prove MNr. HUGHES: No, I am not. I say then before the Royal Commission. were two alternatives. The time has arrive( M1r. HUGHES: I am going, to show how when there should be an exhaustive inquirj I failed to prove the charges before the into this. ]Royal Commission. The Minister for Mines: What, another' Alr. Styants: Thea ran away. Mr. HUGHES: Yes, another. I do no -Mr. HUGHES: I will show how I failed wish to be involved, because I am alrcad.: to prove the charges. overloaded with one Royal Conimis-sion. Mr Cahill told me lie was willing to go befor' The Premier: Let us get on to something any independent tribunal, and have th, near the subject of thle debate whole of his private affairs examined so tha. Mtr, HUGHES:- Johnston corruptly agreed the public might see what property be had to pay an amount uIp to £10,000 in order and whether he had been getting raft ou to get a license at Nedlands where other of his position. In view of the stricture people had failed. There is no question against him and his willingness to do thes' about that. The whole transaction was things, he should be given the opportunit, covrered up by three secret documents, and to enlighten the public concerning the truth it was only when death intervened and a dis- Mr. Lamnbert: Let us first get over th puile arose that the public learnt the truth. lHeathcote nut factory business. 1 will show the far-reaching effeets of the Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member will no the corruption that has been associated with have long to wait. I wish to show the far way we Licensing Court, because whichever reaching effects of the corruption associatei look at that transaction, it was a corrupt with the Licensing Court. Mr. Percy Ear transaction. If the Cabinet Minister con- was brought from Queensland to inquint cerned was not able to use his influence amongst other things, into the correetnes with the court, he Lot the money from John- ston uinder false pretences, and if he Hoel and the Captain Stirling Hotel. Th was able to use influence, he cor- member for Boulder was called as a witness rupted a quasi-judicial tribunal. I sug- This question was put to him, "Are you in gest that it is either one thing or the other; terested in hotels." He declined to answei there is no other alternative. Either the and the Commissioner, who had been brough Cabinet Minister WOWfe Johnston into here at a cost of £E1,000, upheld the hotl thinking lie could get a license, or he was member and told him he need not give al acetually able to influence the court. What is answer. mnoic. the proof of the pudding- is in the eat- Mr-. Styants: He should not have had t, ing, because later the Minister got the answer the question, except in eonneetioi interest in the hotel for nothing, £6,000 with the Inglewood Hotel, and he answere' -Johnston applied for and obtained a license that. where other people had failed, and on an inferior site. There is no one in the corn- Mr, 'HUGHES: He xvas asked this clue, inanity 'who will not agree that the Captain. tion, 1"Are von interested in a partnershii Stirling is on an inferior site in comparison with Senator E. B3. Johnston9" with those to which the other appli- Mr. SlYanlts: It was a fishing expeditioli cations applied. And it is an inferior 31fr, HUGHES: Again the lion. nienbe hotel. It was built with a ridiculously refused to answver, and flie Comum11issione small number of rooms for a metro- lililleld hini. politan hotel. I venture to say it would not )Ir. Styants: And justly So, too. have been passed if other people 'had been Mr. IWIHES : The hon. ineinber made interested. Here is a ease in which there general reflection upon all members. Heie are documents to prove one act of corruption not sulIekientlv fair and has not enougf in connection with the Licensing Court. eotirage to say which member has gone t The Premier: You. cannot prove corrop- the court, so that the rest of us may 1) tion against the Licensing Court. vxonerateil. As a judge of firness Ai (ASSEMBLYJ1 hon. member's standard is not particularly Royal Commission, it the memlber for- high. Boulder had been allowed to answer the Mr, Styants: 'My reputation in the com- question. Legal proceedings have since been munity is as good as yours, whether inside instituted, disclosing that the member for or outside of Parliament. Boulder wag and for somec time has been a Mr. HUGHES: Does the hon. member partner iii the hotel bnsines~s with Senator believe in fairness? There are 50 members .Johnmstoni. of this Chamber. WVhy does be not namne Mr. Styants;: And quite honestly so. Tins the member concerned, instead of casting at law does not say a member may not engage cloud over us all '1 Why does he not say inl business with other p~eole. which member has tried to influence the Mrl. HUGHES: There is a marked differ- court? ence between heing interested with someone The Minister for Mines: You do not know in a partnership, and being- interested iii a the definition of fairness, do you9 ease where one actually appoints a tribunal. Mr. Styants: You would like to know If it was such ail honourable association and the immber or members, would you not, so Ihere was nothing wrong with it, why was it that you could bring the matter tip at sonic necessary to keep everything secret? other timeV Mr. Lambert: Why should a Mr. HUGHES: I do not care what menv Cabinet Minister parade all his bars have approached the court. Possibly transactions? members have gone to it inl connection with Mr. HUGHES: Although the member tor public business. Boulder was interested with Senator John- lion. 0. G. Latham: Here is one who has ston in the Pemberton Hotel, when the ap- never been. I do not know the nieihers of plication for the license was made it was the court. onl 'y disclosed that Senator Johnston was Mr. HUGHES: If I felt like interview- interested. Why w-as the interest of the ing members of the court onl business, I member for Boulder not disclosed? Why would do so. did the member for Victoria Park attack Mr.y Lambert-. There wvould be to. harmi Senator Johnston and declare that he was in that. dummying hotels, when he has known for a long timue that the senator Mr. HUGHES: 0f course not. The sug- was dummyi~ing for the bon. miemlber's gestion the member for JKalgoorlie wanted own leader? Whyv to convey was that sonic member had gone did he not say that both Sena-_ tor Johnston there to influence the court, and had failed. and the member for The Premier: One does not have idle con- Boulder were dummying hotels? Whyi% versations with people. One usually tries did the mnember for Victoria Park to influence theni one way or the other. concentrate on -Senator Johnston, when lie had the ap- M1r. HUGHES: A member may go to the was dummy for the man who pointment. of the court in the palm of his court for information, and with no other hand?1 object in view. The Premier: Would the member for Mr, Lambert: Howv could von have the appointment of the court in, the Kanowna be inl the wrong if he made an palmn of your hand? effort to have two hotels erected at _Norse- man instead of one? The CHAIRMAN: It wouldl he better if the MUr. HUGHES: I am speaking of the mentor for East Perth were allowed to make his own speech. member for Kalgoorlie. When the Royal Commnission inquired into the complaints The Minister for Justice: He knows, all about concerning the Licensing Court, the Conm- that sort of thing-. missioner had before him the one man in Mr. HUGHES: Public confidencee in the the community who could have told him Licensing Court has been destroyed ')eeO 115 whether or not hie was interested in a part- of these associations. nership with Senator Johnston, The Comn- The Premier: Because of your inuen- missioner allowed the member in question to dloes. evade the answer. Probably the lion, mem- Mr. I-UGHES: I did not cast any in- ber thought he had got away with it. It nuendoes. would have been better for the reputation The Premier: I do not think public coin- of Mr. Hirt, and of those concerned in the fidence in the court has been sanken. [2-5 OCTOBER, 193S.] 171573

Mr, 1{CGHES: I made statemients of a knowledge of what questions to ask whieu fart. Notwithstanding the expenditure of Mr. Johnston stated that Mr. Robinson held p)ublic Iln ad the holding- of a bogus the Captain Stirling Hotel license in trust, inquiry, my faclts have been proved by docu- not one of them asked "In trust for whomu?" jIieuts fromn independent sources. Notwith- The whole lot of themn were taking public stnigall the efforts of that bogus inl- funids and were stifling instead of garnering facts. That simple incident proves it. Four The Premnier: You have no right to say of thienm, all trained lawyers of long experi- that. en1ce, when .Iohnston told thein the ficenlso Mr. HIUGHFES: I have every righlt to say~ was held in trust, failed to ask him for it was a bogus inquiry. It is shamepful that whom it was held. ]. had before then re- rll- Hart should he sitting onl the Bentch in tired from the Commission as a protest another State, a fter' the mannier in whichi against the exclusion of, evidence. be Th e Premier: lih, you had! sfitleil the evidene he was paid to get.' The )1Imister for Jlustie: You are not Mr. HUGHES : Wkhen Hart would not ;l iudge o, stanidards. allow Collier to answer questions asked. Mrl. HUGHES: -My standards will comn- WVhat a fool I would have been to waste my timte bVeore Sice[ a l)0-g19 in~quiry! When a pa i" favourably with those of the Minister for Julstice. I rio not believe inl this type of manl who was paid £1,000 of public funds -rafl, and, because I have the teineritv to to ascertain facts showed a determination to stifle facts, what a fool I would have been mention it, ienibers, opposite become, miii- to my, iiu ve'i. .1t was well known that rhiese peoiple waiste timie I1suggqest it was a bogus iliqrini. Thle Coiniirssioiier were interested inl hotels. stifled informia- The Premier: It was not a1bogVs il~iiy tion instead of garnering it. I venture to say 09t PI] vent. of the peoplIe of 'Western Mr. 1-LUGHES: It was. Australia share that opinion. If it was not The Premiier: 'What nonsense! at bogus inquiry, why did not the Comimis- IXMr.H'UGH'ES : A nman was 1)aid £1,"000 sioner get the information available? He (of' public money to ascertain the facts of camie 2,000 miles to obtaiin information, and I be ease, bilt lie would not allow to be givren then turned it away when the witness was die evidlence that would have p-roved the tigris. Blemaise lie did not want the truth to come 'rIv Preier: Anmd von were sill' enough nut. All those legal gentlemen were pre- to Smmvthat Sir Walter .Jamnesv and lie had sent, and not one of them asked at simple 4 ons~pired together. question. Sir Walter James was solicitor Mr. H'UGIIES: I say that as Sir Walter for one of the p~arties concerned,' and knew James was a party to these transactions, and the facts. He was becing plaid public mnoney wasi solicitor for one of the parties eon- to assist the Conmnissioner, W'hy did lie not crerned in the Captain Stirling Hotel license, ask Johnston? he conducted himself in an llnlrofe.%sional The Premier: I do not think you can mniner in attending that inquiry and black- blacken Sir Walter James's character. Any- guarding mne for stating something that hie liow-, it ill-becomes; anyone to do that in the knew was true. case of a man of won derful reputation. The Premier: Oh! Ifr. HIjTGHF9S: I am not coneerneri with Mr. HUGHES: Sir Walter Jamecs, too, whait the Premier thinks. The fact is thai got a slice of the public funds for his part Sir 'Waltel' Jaines appeared beffore that tri. in the transaction. limnal. heinw. PaidlI (liteI apavers or' WVt- The Premier: What a rotten suggestion! orii Aus-tralia to asAist the Commissioner. Mr. HUGHIES: It cannot be denied, be- and hhackmarding iie for ttatingr what lie 1 cause the p~eople concerned have fa lleu out knewy to he the tin11 2I. from time to time and in coasequence the 'Mr. Wilson : And You are 1blacbkruardinp: facts have become public. -To show how him tnw. hona fide was the inquiry, how bona fide Mr. hi UGHES : I amn aii~'rvcrinz himi now. -were those who received public funds to help and T make no apnooe for doninz so. the Commission, Sir Walter James, Mrl. The Premier: Sir 'Walter .Tames hiaq been Wolff-who has been mentioned this even- known for 00 years asain hononrable mnan. in , as the recipient of £625-and 'Mr. Keall, Mr.HUGHES : That dloes not justify himn :1l1 of the,, experienced lawyersposasn inl taking pulici fmnds and blaekgniarrling [ASSEMBLY.]

people who he knewv were telling the truth. rupt. If anybody in the State has a de- If he had had 600 years of honourable public served reputation as an honest man, it is life, that would be all the more reason why Mr. Cahill. I do not think we should listen. he should not have acted so. to such stuff. The Premier: Are you asserting that ho Mr. HUGHES: I was surprised to hear is a crook? from the other side of the Chamber criti- Mr. HUGHES: I am asserting that he ac- cism of the Licensing Court far mnore dras- cepted public funds to do a job, and that he tie and far muore hostile than ever I have knew what he was doing. It just goes to uttered. show the ramifications of the liquor traffic The Premier: Those critics do not say and what occurs in connection with the oh- the court is corrupt. taining~ of licenses. It may be that when M1r. HUGHES: The member for Mur- Mr. Johnston came up for licenses the chison has criticised the Licensing Court Licensing Court did not know that he was drastically time and again. That hon. in secret collusion with Mr. Collier and member once moved for an inquiry into Mr. MeCallum. the Licensing Court and the granting of The Premier: You said that they were licenses. Did the Premier raise any ob- corrupt, didn't you? jection to that? Last session the hon. Mr. HUGHES: No. I have said, and I member again moved such a motion, and repeat, that in the circumstances now dis- I gave notice of a comprehensive amend- closed there is an irresistible ;nferece that mnent dealing with the specific question of influences were being used on the court. the dummnying of licenses. Unfortuntely-- Discussing the matter with the chairman, I say "unfortunately'' especially in the I told him this myself; and he agreed that light of subsequent disclosures-the mem- in the circumstances, with nil these people ber for Murchison allowed his motion to getting licenses, it was. inevitable that sus- lapse. It is a pity that he did not picion should fall upon the court. lie said proceed with it and obtain the select he was willing to have his affairs investi- committee he asked for last session. gated in order to show that he did not The member for Victoria Park (Mr. receive any pecuniary return out of it. Raphael) launched an attack on Senator The Premier: Everyone in this country Johnston. Did the Premier rise in protest? is satisfied as to the chairmait's personal "Why did not he object to that hon. moim- character, anyhow. You say the court is her's stricturesI corrupt. The Premier: I am defending the honour Mr. HUGHES: I say the Captain Stir- of the Licensing Court; I am not concerned ling license was a corrupt transaction. about anyone else. The Premier: That means that the court Mr. HUGHES: WhYy did not the Premier is corrupt. object to the charges levelled by the mem- Mr. HUGHES: I say £6,000 of graft ber for Victoria Park? On the other hand, money was obtained. when another member disclosed the true The Premier: Where does the court come facts underlying the offers on behalf of in? Johnston and the efforts demanded on be- Mr. HUGHES: I do not know. I know half of those associated with him, on account Johnston had to pay out £6,000 of graft of which be had to make payments in order money-it cannot be described by any to get the license, why was that wrong i other term, The Premier: I am not concerned about The Premier: Was it corrupt? anyone else, only about the court. I do not Mr. HUGHES: Of course it was a cor- think the lion. member should impugn the rupt transaction. honour of the court. I do not think lie canI The Premier: Was the court corrupt? prove his charges, and I do not think the Mr. HUGHES:. Of course it was. basis for those charges exists, The rremier: Everything is corrupt. M1r. HUGHES: What I said earlier I Mr. ITUGHIES: It was a corrupt trans- repeat for the edification of the Pr-emier. action, and the price of it was £6,000; or The Premier: I have heard it three or perhaps it might have been £,10,000. four times, and it has no effect upon mac. The Premier: I do not think ten men in Mr. HUGHES: I repeat the Captain the community believe the court is cor- Stirling Hotel transaction involved a pay- [25 Oc'roLFfa, 1938.])57 1575 ment of £6,000 of graft money. The proper M.1r. Marshall: No, in 1928. way to deal with the question is to take the The Premier:- It acted both as the court right away from the possibility of this ticenses Reduction Board and the Licensing sort of thing&, and that can be done by giv- Court. The major part of its work related ing the members. of the court an appoint- to the reduction of licenses at the outset. ment similar to that of judges. Mr. HUGHES:- At first the licensing- The Premier: That could be considered. authorities were required to reduce the num- Mr. HUGHES: If the Government is not ber of licenses and to grant compensation in prepared to legislate for life appointments respect of properties that were delicensed. to the court, the members of that body could The Premier: That was the main part of be appointed for a specified term of, say, its work at the outset. seven years. Hon. C. G. Latham: It continued as a The Premier: We could deal with that. Licenses Reduetioa Board for six years. Mr. HUGHES: That could be done with The CHAIRMAN: If the member for the additional p~rovision that the members East Perth were permitted to make his of the court would not be eligible for re- speech, lwe would understand his meaning appointment at the end of seven years. If All the interjections will get us nowhere and that were done, they would then know that must cease. they had a period of seven years to serve, Mr. HUGHES: As far as I know the lic- and would have no hope of re-appointment ensing body at some stage changed over f rom for an additional term. In such circum- being a Licenses Reduction Board to a stances there would be no incentive for the licenses establishing board. Instead of re- court to please someone in order to secure ducing licenses, it has been mainly concerned re-appointment. If either of those two in recent years with the ranting of licenses. alternatives was resorted to, there would not The Premier: The reduction of licenses be room for complaint against the Licensing continued until there were no more to be Court because the public would know that dealt with. the members of the bench had nothing to Mr. HUGHES: In the last seven or eight hope for, that if they had not granted a years the court may have delicensed one or license, it was because they honestly believed i-wnprenis but- thare11 h vL been many i Lu ;licese was not desirable. Ii, in addi- reductions in recent years. tion, the right of appeal against decisions TePremier: That is so. of the court were granted, that would place the whole position on a sound footing. Such Mr. HUGHES: So in recent years the .an arrangement would be much fairer to the Licensing Court has been functioning mainly Licensing Court than the present day con- for the granting of licenses. ditions under which the court is subject to H-on. C. G. Latham: The court does not perennial criticism in this Chamber with re- reduce licenses now. gard to the granting of licenses. I do not Mr. HUGHES: And to that extent it has kcnow that there is any need for the Licens- ceased to function as was originally intended. ing Court now; I do not see why that work Mr. Patrick: There is no compensation could not be done in the same 'way as other available now. judicial work. Mr. HUGHES: The person who applies The Premier: You were here -when the for a license should make a complete dis- Licensing Act was dealt with. closure to the court of all that are interested Mr. HUGHES: I do not think I was. with him in the application. He should tell Mr. Marshall: You were not in this the court whether he was applying in his House when the present court was ap- own right or whether hie was merely the pointed. nominee of someone else. The court should Mr. HUGHES: Was not the licensing take a stand on that point. If I were a authority first set up as a Licenses Reduction member of the Licensing Court, I would he Board? inclined to say to the man who had eleven Mr. Marshall: That was in 1922. hotels . "You will not get another license; 7 M~r. HfUGHES: At the outset its function whv not let someone else have a chance. wtas to reduce the number of licenses. Then Why should the samne man get one license I understand that it became a licensing after another? Would it not be better if authority in 1927. every licensee were responsible for his parti- 1576 ' [ASSEMB1LY.] cular license, thereby enabling one manl to dualIs, an11( whre those monopolies aire %alu- wake his living- by virtue of the license able, then graft inevitably follows ill their grantied Jim for the control of one hotel? wake, because tile people wvho wvant the Surely that would be preferable to a system no Po1Y righits wllI pay for- thlen]i. If we that permits one person to hold 10 or 15 would put the liqluor traffic ol a sound hotels that are controlled by managers whose basis, we must overcome the present system conditions of employment are very often not wllerebv the value of somec person's land is at all satisfactory. I do not drink, and do increased three or four times, and when ain not care whether hotels are licensed or not. hlotel is erected upon1 it, thle owne1r can' It is no material concern of mine. I believe charge anl excessive rent. Members would we would 1)e much better off if instead of be astonished if they hadl a statement show- certai paleople~ controlling the monopoly re- ig the rentals ela rgeel for licensed p re- garding, the selling of liquor, the grocers mists, ats licensed premises, and the rental we-re permitted to sell a bottle of beer to any that would be o bta ineci if th li knise were, Per-son 'rho Ivanted tite. What virtue is absent. That would be the true ecollomfie there in making a man buy six bottles of t ent. Building-s ale beiin leased at Present beer when hie requires only one or twvo? at reiitals or. £30 and £10 a wek S i There is anjother aspect of the l iquor because attached to tiloin ait, licenses. T hose bud ness that should receive close attention. 5111110prilss l liceilsed Woold[ not yield If someone gets the idea that a certain block more than £15 or £20 a week. The differ- or' land is a sitable site for an hotel, the carec betweeii the economic rent aimd the moment thatI becomes knlown the value of imoniopoly rent goes to the Priva to iniiivi - the block increases .300 or 400 per cent. duaml. When we grant a,landholder a license, That means that the owner of the land wre imake him a gift of perhaps £20,000 or benefits by the enhanced value of the land by E60,000 of public funds, because we say to virtue of the suggestion that a monopoly may the Peo ple, "If you wanut liq1 uor, you wlvl lie g-ranted in respect of hotel promises let it onlyv from this source." Tnsmlediatelv we increase the value of thle premises. As Proposed to 1)e erected oii his 1)10perty'. Thus the landlord secures a rake-off from the out- a. matter of fact, we are doing- the saine set. As soon as the provisional license is tingq to-day in giving persons the right to granled, the prem~nim paid to the State is sell lottery tickets. The moment a person rid iculously low. Licenses are grnited with secures a license to sell lottery tickets, the premilunis or £1,300 whepreas riertlentl\' the rent of his premises increases. I suggest Cap)Ltal %',valse of the license inns sip) to ats that Iwhat Ire need is a reruodell ing of out much as £10,000. The State that is supl- licensing laws, with a differenit outlook as to who owns the rents ot licensed prenises. poe to get the Premnium based onl the value of the license secures a return Of 'About onle. Iion. P. D. Ferguson: TIhc State hotels fifth. The moment the Licensing- Court de-- su ppl'y onily about 5 per- cent, of the require - cides tjat a site is suitable for a new hotel. tents of t he lpeop~le. the State should erect that hotel in eoiniii- '%rt. HUCHES: I do not kiiowv why a anee with tile reqluiremen ts of the I :Ceilm Sta te hotel should supply omdY 5 per elst. authorities.' When the Promises art Cain- it the req~uireiments. leted, the State should then call for tenmder, lHon. P. D. Ferguson: The State hotels. for the leasing of the prenmises for Periods wvillInot provide anIy more. of. five, seven or tenl years, givingr everyonle Mr. HUGHES: That is only a matter of ani equal 01)poitunity to tender. Such01a ldiniiiistraition, not of pirinciple. practice would get rid of all the complaints Thie Premiier: It is a Jmatter of cold cash. about the Licensing Court and the strueglc Mir. HUGHES: To get money to extend to secure licenses. Under those conditions, the State hotels should not he difficult, if in Proabl 15 years the State would secure we had a sv'steni by' which time State hlotels. the refund of the enapital outla y andl then could borrow nmoney on bonds or debentures would have possession of valuable assets, inl secured liv thle hotels themlselves. People the interests of the p~eople generally. Then wVould readily subscribe for such bonds or again, instead of in individual securing the (lebentulres, biecause they would receive a profits ar ising from the liquor mionopoly, the higher rate of interest than is ordinarily State itself would derive the beiiefit. Where paid. People would be glad to have such mfoniopoliLes are g-railted ho Private i ndivi- .-.eurities, because of aut assured returni. I [25 Ocrosinu, 193S.] hia~e hear1 euniplaints from time to Pitne counlsel imted upon being heard. Even about thle conduct of the chairman of the in the superior courts during the last six Licensing Court, The statement has been or seven months counsel has wvalked out of mnade that he has been rude to people who court because lie was not satisfied with the appear before him. I do not think there way the judge treated him; the judge there- is much in the complaint. If lie is rude or upon. adjourned the court and returned in offensive to people appearing before him, half in hour, when the business proceeded their remedy is to answer him in his own as though nothing had taken place. I am coin. That would bring him to his senses. sorry the mnember for Murehison dlid not The fact that hie is the chairman of the proceed with his inquiries to ascertain the court gives him no right to be offensive to trite facts relating to the Liecnsing Court. witnesses and counsel, who would be quite I do not thiink there is need for him to do within their rights in answviering, him hack. so now, because the latest legal proceed- If, however, they do not stand up to him, inigs have made a complete disclosure and what can they expect! Suppose hie did amply justified what I said both in and say something a1 little offensive onl the spur out of Parliament regarding the granting of the mnoment, and counsel answered him of licenses. Those proceedings completely back in his own coin, what could he (o0 justify, the wvise policy of Mr. Hart, from lie could not refuse to hear counsel. Queensland, ifl not allowing evidence to be Mr. Patrick: He hats done so. adduced when hie did not want to find out MY, Marshall: That is so. that mny statements were true, I make no, Mr, HUGHES: The chairman has not re- ap~ology for the statement I have made fused to hear counsel. concerning Mr. Hart and theo way he eon- Mr. Marshall: le saidl lie would not listen dueted thle inquiry. I make no apology for to counsel. what I said concerning the failure of other Mr. HUGHES: Counsel should have people who were getting away with public stayed and demanded to he heard. WNhen, a funds, to answer questions. I think we, judige in South Australia acted in that way, ought to abolish the Licensing Court as it he was removed front his office. The mere is at p~resent constituted. We ought to P)ut an end tn mir nvncOnf offnn,, confer upon a person the right to be of- ing. If we have to establish another tri- fensive with impunity. If counsel had Ibunal, let uts establish it on sound judicial stood up to the chairman, I venture to say lines. Let uis give thle members of the hie would have come to heel. Although I court a better appoinitment, one that will aml a manl of peace, if Mir. Cahill is rude make them free from fear and favour. Let to me, I canl assure members that I will their decisions be subject to appeal in the answer him in his own coin; I feel sure ordinary way, and then we shall have a I will get a hearing. licensing systm Onl a proper judicial basis, Mfr. Patrick: You mnight not get the and the need of these perennial complaints license. in Parliament will be obviated. Mr. HUOGi S: That behaviour is not MR. RODOREDA peculiar to MAr. Cahill. Counsel in the (Roebourne) [10.30]: lower courts frequently have rude remanrks This matter has aroused quite a lot of in- made to them from the bench. Ini a book terest, perhap~s almost as much as is taken entitled "Justice in England," recently cir- in s.p. betting. I wish to say a few words culated, bitter complaints are made about about the attitude of the chairman of the the rudeness to barristers in the petty courts Licensing Court. The member for East in England. Some sensitive men are driven Perth (Mr. Hughes) made apologies for fromr the bar by this behaviour, and prac- the attitude of the chairman, and men- tise in other branches of the law. I do not tioned that counsel were able to look after think Mr. Cahill is such a tiger as some themselves when they camne into conflict people imagine. Occasionafly when deal- with him. I quite aippreciate that point, ing with a case hie might get annoyed. and but the member for East Perth must re- have his say, but I do not think that'does member that it is not only counsel who much harm. If, on the spur of the moment, appear lbefore the Licensing Court. In the- he said hie would not hear counsel, I do not outback parts of the State ordinary citi- think he would persist in that attitude if zens, are often compelled to appea~r and 1578 1578[ASSEMBLY.] state their own eases before the chairman, salary as comp~ared with what we pay the and they are the people who apparently judiciary. We have to bear in mind that get a very rough spin. I was asked last the Licensing Court has far greater autho- year to make a protest against the attitude rity than has any other judicial court in of the chairman as the outcome of a case Australia, if not in the world. I consider that was heard in Roebourne. I did not that the members of the court should be do so because I desired to ascertain the appointed for at least seven years, subject facts. On my last visit to Roebourne I to Parliament and Dot to the Government, obtained all the evidence available from and that the salaries of the members should those who were in the court at the time. be increased to the extent at least of those In every instance the evidence agreed with paid to judges. Then we could reasonably the written complaint that had been for- say that the members of the court would warded to me, namely, that the chairman be shove suspicion. To do that, I consider, had adopted a blustering, hectoring atti- is the duty of this Parliament. We must, tude toward the witnesses who, in this case, to the greatest extent possible, make the were appearing against the granting of a judiciary free from even the suspicion of gallon license in Roebouruc. graft. There has never been the slightest By the wray, I should have thought it indication of suspicion against oui judi- would be quite unnecessary for the chair- cial courts, but none of us can ignore the mnof the court to make a trip all the fact that there is an air of suspicion when- way to Roebourne-he went without any ever the Licensing Court is mentioned. I other member of the court-to investigate have no fault to find wvith any of the the quiestion of granting an extra paltry licenses pranted by the court. I do not gallon license. Two or three licensees of know the circumstances under which they hotels in the district attended the court were granted, and do not pretend to, and and objected to the granting of the license, I have no desire to touch upon that aspect and they were the people who complained at all, When we consider the facts that of the attitude of the chairman. Not only have been brought to light during the last did they complain that be had treated them twoD or three years, and when we consider with scant courtesy, but they said he had that the three members of the eourt cum- actually refused to allow them to put in bined receive only a little more sanlary than their principal points of evidence. That is paid to one judge, I am incline-I to think was their chief complaint. As the com- that we could not blame them too much plainants remarked, "We are seared to if they did listen to reason. Men who arc stick up for our rights in front of this appointed with only a three-years tenure chairman because he has unlimited powers of offie and at a comparatively miserable over us. " That is the point- They are salary afraid to assert their rights because he, as Mr. Seward: What would you call a a result, might compel them to make £100 decent salary? or £200 worth of improvements to their Mr. RODOREDA: We pay judges £2,000 premises, and he has the right to do that ayear. without question. 'Mr. Patrick: What do w-c pay magis- Mr. Hughes: Is not the right of appeal trates? the remedy? Air. RODOREDA: The three members of Mr. RODOLIEDA: Of course it is. The the Licensing Court receive only £2,300 or member for East Perth has suggested the £2,400 between them. A judge, in addition one method that should be adopted to make to receiving almost as munch, is appointed for the court effective, that is, presupposing life. Further, the activities of the Licensing the court is necessary. I do not think the Court concern the general public mach -more court is necessary; I believe the expendi- than do the activities of most of our judges. ture on it is a waste of money. If it is The Licensing Court deals with aspects of necessary, however, very different condi- life with which the public is closely con- tions should apply to the appointment of cerned. the members of the court. It is quite Mr. Needham: Arc the conditions com- wrong and quite unfair to them, as well parable? as to the public, that they should be ap- Mr. RODOREDA: I should say they are. pointed for only three years at a miserable If we want a coort to look after the licens- [25 OcrOBE-t, 1038.] 1579 ing of hotels, we should see that the members The Minister for Justice: That matter does are appointed for a reasonable term to cary not come under this department. out their policy, and we should pay them Mr. PATRICK: It has been raised on salaries that would place them above suspi- various occasions, by the member for Irwin- cion. I do not propose to vote for any re- Moore, I think, and it is certainly one of duction of the vote if such an amendment is which the Minister should take notice. There moved. That is the wrong way to set about would be far more justice in a country securing an improvement. I would prefer mag-istrate's giving a convicted youth the to have the Licensing Act amended in the option of going to the city, where there are direction either of abolishing the court or of more police, than in sending such a youth putting it on a. more satisfactory basis than from the city to the country where there are exists at present. There is nothing personal probably no police available to protect em- in my view of the question. Ever since I have been in the House I have supported the layers. If this matter does not comeI under the department of the Minister for Justice, member for Murchison (Mr. Marshall) in I hope the Minister for Employment will his endeavour to get some more satisfactory take notice of it. method adopted. I am not personally ac- qnainted with ally of the members of the I propose to make a few remarks regard- court; I would not know any one of them ing the Licensing Court. I do not intend to if I met himi in the street. All I can say make any charges against that court. I am is tha~t after a very lengthy consideration of not in the habit of making charges or innu- this matter extending over three or four endoes against anyone. I simply take the years, I consider that the Government is to stand that it is not a judicial body. Mem- blame in that, in spite of all the criticism bers mnay recall that last year I asked a that has been voiced iii this Chamber during question of the Minister for Justice as to that period, it has not taken up the matter whether he had noted the extraordinary pro- and introduced a Bill to amend the Licensing cedure of the chairman of the Licensing Act. Court (Mr. M. J. Cahill) at a sitting held at Cernldton, and whether he would] not con- MR. PATRICK (Oreenough) [.10.38]: I sider asking for Mr. Cahill's resignation and should jAce to uraw tile Mlinister's attention the appointment of a chairman with the to at matter that is causing a considerable necessary judicial temperament. The case in amount of concern in the country districts. Gcraldton concerned a hotel at Perenjori in I have received from the Daiwallinti Road my electorate that had neither accommoda- Board a copy of a resolution as follows:- tion nor anything else. The residents of the That members of the Legislative Assembly district Ilad become so incensed over a period of this road district (DaIlliu) bring before of years that they had a petition signed re- the Minister for Employment that this board questing the road board to take up the meat- strongly protests against the work being given in lieu of punishment when convicted persons ter with the Licensing Court in Geraldton, will take work in the country and 1oreeene with the object of a renewal of the license lhas been given to employers on engagenlent of being refused until certain improvements such pesos were made. Legal opinion was obtained I (10 not knowv whetiher this kit nlattel for with regard to this petition, which bore 164 the Minister for Employment or for the signatures, 150 of residents of the district M1inister for Justice. Let me give an in- and 14 of travellers. The ruling given was stance to show how this p~ractie operates. that the petition could not be received by the A lad wa; convicted in Perth of stealing, court until proof was supplied that the sig- and inl lieu, of serving time in. gaol, was natories had actually signed the petition and given the option or' taiking- work in the were resident in the licensing district. So countryv. Hle naturally took the work in the the chairman and secretary of the hoard lpro- t-ounltrV. Whlile wvorkiing at a certain per- ceeded to Ceraldton and took with them the son's place0 at Bantine, this lad, after bein~g mana~er of tile co-operative store in Peren- there a couple of months, mlade a complete jori to certify that the people had actually raid onl the cowner's hou~e and farin llultes* signed the petition. When they reached Ger- quarters, and remoxvd a bicycle, bedding, aldton-and I may say that they employed and any available cash and disappeared. He a lawyer-the chairman of the court stated was eventuailly ctaught and convicted on this that a telegram had been received from the eharge. seci-etarY of thle Peicujori Prog-ress Asso- (ASSEMiNBLY.)

ciation saving- that the association disavowed wa-s that lte chairman of ltme Licensimg Court the p)ctition and therefore he had no inten- ga ve the reason why Police evidence was not tion of hearing the evidence from the road reliable. he said, "The police conic to this board. That was an. extraordinary attitude court on sonic occasions and oppose the to adopt because, after all, a telegram was license and on other occasions they support no evidence. There were the chairman of the it. What reliance can be placed on evidemmev road board and the secretary, with their of that character?" petition, prepared to give evidence in regard Hion. C. G. Lathiam. That shows un- to the condition of the hotel; yet the chair- balanced judgment. nian contemptuously waived them aside and Air. PATRICK: It is the duty of thne refused to hear them. The member for East police to support licenses if they are coin- Perth said that any lawyer could insist on sidered necessary and to oppose them if they being heard, but the road board was repre- aire considered unnecessary. That is all . sented by counsel and the chairman refused have to say on the matter, but I should like to hear counsel. In those circumstance I do to add that I agree with the member for not know what they were to do After the Murchison that this court is absolutely unn- eae was heurd, I received a le-tte-r front the necessary. The member for Roebourne (11r. secretary of the progress association, MITr.Rodoreda) made reference to the miserable A. R. Piper, who is the son of a late dis- salaries paid to thme members of the court, tinguished judge in South Australia and a but the work of the court does not take very brother of the gentleman who was recently many days of the year, because the matters the chairman of an important Royal Com- of renewals are attended to by stipendiary mission. The letter was as folows:- magistrates. The members of the court are At a well represeuted meeting of my associa- far better paid than are ordinary stipendiary tion held on the 10thi December last, I wais In- structed to forward for your information a miagistrates, aind there is no doubt tlint this copy of a motion which was the unainituous work could be done quite well by our inagis- opinion of those present:- trates in the country. As the member for ''That this association desires to place on Murehison has pointed out, magistrates were record its strong disapproval of the hostile and discourteous treatment accorded the re- at one time hampered by an imperfect Act, presentatires of the road board by the but now there is a very good Act and there chairman of the Licensing Court at tine re- should be no difficulty either in the renewing- newval court held at Ceraldtonk on the 4th of licenses or in the granting of new ones. November last and wishes these sentime~nts to be conveyed to meumbers of Parliament I repeat that in niy opinion there is obso- representing- the district in protest thereof.'' lutely no necessity for this court, and there- fore, if only as a protest, I intend to sup- My complaint is that this is not a judicial body at all. One could not imagine any, pmort the amendment that the mnember for chairman of a court with legatl or judicial Victoria Park lproposes to move. knowledge absolutely refusing to beamr wit- MR. WATTS (Kataningii) [10.49)]: Aly neqses who had travelled 200 mniles, to give ideas about the Licensing- Court are entirely evidence. This complaint is borne out by non-personal. To me it is purely at question the statement of the member for Kanowna, whether the court in its Present form is re- concerning the case of Norseman, where the quired, and if not what should be substituted. chairman of the court said he placed no The bench as at present constituted does not the police. reliance on evidence given by seem to be the one we should have. I have Hon. C. G. Lathami: Was not a sergeaiit long contended that the gentlemen who have of police removed onl account of it? sat on the bench-however valuable they may Mr. PATRICK: If he places no reliance have been in their previous occupations, and on the evidence of the polic~e. I do not know however useful they may have been as macin- how he can carry on his duties, because the hers of the court on some occasions-have not court depends on the evidence of the police been entirely fitted for the job. Some iacmn- with reguard to the renewal of licenses. The hers have suggested we should go back to the court could not possibly inspect every hotel days when a resident magistrate, with two in the State; it depends on police evidence. justices of the peace, constituted a district I can amplify the statement of the member licensing court, but I trust that system will for IXanowna to some extent because there not be reverted to. That was not a satisfac- was one thing lie did not mention, and that tory bench at all. There were timies, I darn- [25 OC1oiitRn. IOU3.] y-,188 1

-say, ithenl tin sy'stem worked quite well, but worth 0our while' to sulllort it at this june- it was that type of bench, notwithstanding~ tuic ! Trne in, ttle i~ot. to strike that the law has greatly been improved since out £2,808 from thle amount of the Vote. It that rune, wich was vecry largely responsible seemis to mie that to vote for sinch a pr-olposal ini :.OlO lis-tiic-ts, for tile- Varying porac!tices would lie unreas:onable Tor- two r&aons. The that existed in regard to licensed preniises, first is that a hli.inilitely olie-third of the InI some places no doubt it worked well, butl year wi-ill have gone, and secondly there nlot -O ill tile majority of itnstancres. To go would iremain a liabilitv against I le Cr-own hack- toI that Stage1 Would be a retrograde for the pttyinent otf not less thanL two-thii-ds -step. There is anl klteriliye to ilsking di of thle amnount coveting the tinexpii-cd triet iua'istrates, nesidi't or sti pendiaty, period of tihe apphoititments. W\hilst it nnaz'nltcs, to takze over the job themnselves. mar lie said that whatever amnount 'Ye 1 agree With tile iIninibe for Kaigoorlie thlat tik'out there retains oly the nmoial there are Several centres. where resident Jmg- fibhIigil tion o 1, (lit' "ov'i ic int to pay istrates could not have these additional nyV Mno01-, 1 stilorlit there is- at legal duties superimlposed onl the work they already obligaltion to payI at pa:st onle-thir'd of The do. No doubt there are pieces where niagis- alii 1111t ilv ol vrsl Th us t he hln Ine tube n- trintes have not too much work to do, and would mnake tlniizs nor' difficult it' his pro- where it would not lie difficult for them to posall tx-e n)- ine -BY redlucin Ithtle runonu1it aswsume responsibility for otlher jobs; hut in suiitiallv he wouldl be inist tot i g the tine larger centres the mnagistraltes would find (hovecinillen t to ablo~ is I the Li i-c si ii C oltt . great difficulty in carrying out additional I Shouldl sav it would he unre1-asonable to dkities. Ity suggestion is that at stipendiary% reduce the! anoaiit so gt-ratl ' that it wvould magistrate should he appointed in exactly lie iimpossilble fot- thev Government to honour the same way as others arc appointed under the lglobligation it has already incurred. the Stipendiary Mag-istrates Act, hut that 9o far as the law s-tnds it is necessary for such magistrate should lie appointed %lie~- lii'~~ LJvriietunderstand, to have at cmaliv to deal with thle issue o)f licenses and Licensing, Cou-t constituted as is this one. the renlewal of licenses for premises for the It seemns to ille the pi-oper- Iva - to go( about sale of hionor, and other matters covered hr the huiitness is Con- 1hle Gover-utnetit to amlendi thne Act. 1-e4 would he the particular person the lawx. Aini amendnment would ieceive re~sponsible for all qluestions connected with re.f,up i-ft tnonn1 Int, p teti - if it the Licenlsing- Act. If such 0I muau were ap- we re Oii thi ilt", that I believe wouold lie pointed we would haive the advantage we most satisfactor ' . 1 See 11o rasom for suip- ,are, suppmosed to get fromn a separate Licens- poitiliig the suggest.-l reduc-tioti. It is how- ing Court, namiely', that there would be eoii- ever-, withiin ti-l pirovinace of :1 memlber. to tinuity of effort, and State wside miethods, inove that the 'Vo t- lit re-douced hlVa sub- adoptedI so that the local option which pre- stantiaI lont., to indicate to theV O ei- viously existed would no longer he noticeable. mneat the dei-m of Ihle Colnunittee. I undme- In this man we would also have one who stand the ex pressed intention o01 thme nieni- would be trained in a judicin] manner, as bei- for Victoi-ia Park is to inre lot- a re- stipendiary magistrates nnust lie, and hie ductioti in the Votn of £C2,808. Expressed would bie capable of dealing with all ques- in sucih terms- I think the pi-opos al wonld tinis that came before him.) If he required be sotitetchat tin i-casOn able. locai assistance it should lie within his pro- I shoutld likce also to r-efer to (IItIn'vntsfer. vinice to co-opt the local resident magistrate. of Land Act. That coiitaii ito 1proiiion I believe that a systemn worked on those lines, fot 1:1its4s to he entvi-ec 111)01 a iy%title deeds hy the appointmnent of one stipendiary miag- or similar documetnts. The Ifegist-an- of' istrate as the licensing- magistrate for Titles; will accept the deposit f doc-uimenits W.A..- with power to co-opt the good offices that declaie the existence of a truszt, hut the of a local magistrate if line required] theta, record of the trust (les ilot appearl- ille would result in a greatly improved state of title. It is cxtretiel 'v difficult to reg-iter a affairs. I do not think the Licensing- Court docuticiret such as a1niortgage or other secur- is required inl its present form. ity that makes a i-eference to the fact that 'rherve then arises another question- If the the itioncys i-eferred to are held by a moit- reduction of thle iteml suggested by the menli- ga-ce as trustee. It is unnecessary to con- hrfor Victoria Park is moved, would it hr tinue tine present position. I vtidirstaud that 1682 [ASSEMBLV.1 the inability to register a declaration of a Hon. C. G. Latham: I objected to both. trust on the certificate of title or other title The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: He ob- deeds dates back to the time when the Tor- jected to the payment thus becoming neces- rens legislation was first introduced. I have sary. never been able to discover why it was put Hon. C. G. Latham: I do not think the into its present form, but apparently at the payment should have been made. time there was some good reason for it. The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: The The Premier: It has been considered to hon. member thinks we should have denied be too complicated to alter in the Ordinary the officer the money in question. way. Hon. C. G. Latham: Yes, whilst he was in Mr. WATTS: An opportunity should be the employment of the Government. afforded for a trust that has been declared The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: This to be noted on the title deeds or other Government is opposed to accumulation of securities concerned. As members of the long service leave-very definitely opposed select committee we have had an opportunity [o it. But notwithstanding that opposition to study the Legal Practitioners' Act. Some we are from time to time faced with tile inquiries were made into the position. We necessity for denying some officers, who found that in one instance a solicitor, who actually want to go on long service leave, the made default some years ago, was the actual right to go. Circumstances arise that com- registered proprietor of a mortgage. There pel us to continue the services of officers in was no notification on the register [hat lie the departments, and oblige us to refuse them held the mortgage as trustee, and he was the opportunity to take long service leave. accordingly able to go to one of the associ- I cannot say from memory what are the ated banks and there obtain an advance on circumstances associated with the ease of the security of the mortgage, use the nlone~v Mr. Wolff. I do know that he was appointed for his own purpose, and deprive of his Crown Solicitor in August, 1926; and I as- rights the person for whom he held the pro- sume that his long service leave would be- perty in trust. That position should not come due in August, 19.33. just when a ses- have arisen, in that the bank would never sion was beginning, and just when a new have made the advance if there had been Government came into office. Therefore it compulsorily noted on the register the cir- may be that circumstances were such as to cumestances of the trust. Whilst there mnay necessitate our refusing Mr. Wolff long ser- be reasons why an amendment of the Trans- vice leave at that particular time. fer of Land Act in this direction could not, Hon. C. G. Lathanm: What did you do he permitted, if there are such reasons I when hie was away sick for so long? shall be glad if the Minister for Justice will The 'MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: He look into the matter and let us know what was not away very long. the position really is. Hon. C. G. Latham: A good while. The Premier: The Act will have to he The MINISTER FOR JTUSTICE: I have amended. often had it said to me: "What would y-ou .Mr. WATTS: I know that. Wily should do if you woke uip in the morning and found it not be amended? a man's name in the death notices?" The Premier: There is no reason unless I-on. C. G. Latham: Of course a 'nan ean the House refuses to deal with it. be done without. Air. WATTS: I think an amendment The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: We should be brought down at an early date. cannot always do without a luan, because we have to do our best in the circumstances, the THE MINISTER rOR JUSTICE (Hon. best for the State in the position we hold F. C. L. Smith-Brown Hill-Ivanhoe-in under the State. Frequently' that compels reply) [10.58]: To take first things first, I us to retain the services of a man to deal will refer to the complaint of the Leader of with matters arising at a particular time. the Opposition as to the payment of £625 to In fact, there is something going on at the Mr. Justice Wolff. I understood his comn- moment in connection with which it might paint was not so much concerning the pay- be much better for the Government and for ment, for he desired to do justice to the the State if an officer nowv on long service officer concerned as a member of the Public leave were here. The probability is that if Service, but that he objected to tbe long ser- lie had not gone away when lie did go. he vice leave being allowed to accumulate. would not have been able to leave the State. [25 OCrOBER, 1988.] 158:3

Such are circumstances which arise. As re- quired Mr. Wolff's services for it. It was gards Mr. Wolff, who displayed a great imperative to get a man well fitted for the deal of assiduity and energy in his position, task. Moreover the congestion in the Ar- and had constantly been called upon to do bitration Court was developing all the time. a considerable amount of extra work con- In that connection demands were being nected with Royal Commissions and inquiries, made upon its, and those demands were I may particularly mention his last ap- supported by the Opposition. So the neces- pointinent as a Royal Commissioner, in sity arose for making an appointment. which he did wonderful work. In fact, lion. C. G. Latham: Mr. Davies could the Premier has already indicated that we have done that work. would be quite justified in awarding him The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: There some extra remuneration for his services is no satisfaction in making a temporary rendered in connection with the problem of appointment, either as regards the ap- youth employment, and the vast amount of pointment itself or as regards the indivi- overtime work lie did in gathering evidence dual appointed. .and in subsequent compilation of the report. Hon. C. G. Latham: You know that the I am, of course, aware that usually it is appointment of Mr. Davies in connection highly placed officers who are subject to with the Arbitration Court was merely this particular condition, officers who are temporary. not easily replaced. Their services at The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: It was times cannot be done without, and their made only because the President of the positions cannot be satisfactorily filled by Arbitration Court went away on a holi- substitutes at certain periods. Thus it day. often happens, as the Leader of the Oppo- Hon. C. G. Latham: And Mr. Wolff's is sition Knows, that the Government has to a temporary appointment to-day, as regards say to an officer, ''You cannot have your the Arbitration Court. hinp servieap lonve nrnv !view" ; A,,. t ±ihe MINInOlTfL FORvi.ouSnTI : Hie you; you w'ill have to wait three or four acts as chairman of industrial boards, and months.'' The officer may lifivo to wvait he is anl addition to the judiciary of the three or four years. State; a very necessary appointment, too. Hon. C. G. Latham: is it better to say, No one can refute that contention. "'We wvill pay you for your long service Hon. C. G. Latham: The other man is in leave'' permanent employment as Master of the The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I do Supreme Court. not think we did say that. The INISTER FOR JUSTICE: We Hon. C. 0. Latham: You did it. effected two purposes by one move in ap- The MNINISTER FOR JUSTICE: We pointing itr. Wolff to the Supreme Court did it in circumstances which implied that bench, for which hie is well qualified, and Mr. Wolff mighlt have had his long- service as chairman of industrial boards. That is leave if he had not conducted the inquiry a compliment which could be paid to very into youth employment. few men in Western Australia. It is Mr. Styants: Long service leave is given highly difficult to find a man so well quali- for the purpose of recuperation. fied to fill the two positions. We were f or- Hon. C. 0. Latham: The fact of its not tunate in having Mr. Wolff at our dispo- being taken shows that it is not needed. sal to fill them. The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I would Hon. C. 0. Lathami: That has nothing to do with the payment of £6625. ot say that. I acknowledge that many public servants do not know what to do The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: The with it when they get it, particularly those qluestioni raised by the member for Katan- on the lower range of salaries. But the ning iii relation to trusts appearing onl Leader of the Opposition knows just as title deeds I know nothing about, bilt I well as I do that there are eircumstances shall have inquiries made and ascertain the in which long service leave has to be post- position. Now as regards the vexed ques- poned. Eventually it accumulates, and the tion of the Licensing Court, I do not feel facts of this particular ease are not unique. myself called upon to justify any of the There was that important investigation re- decisions of that court. The tribunal has lating to youth employment, and we re- beeni vested with certain powers under the 1584 1584ASSEMBLY.]

Laicenising Act, and is chlarged with the re- tact that many of the decisions of the Pull 5polib1)litv iii in kiiig decision4 on evi- Court were upset by a higher tribunal. The dence placed before it at iniquiriesi aso- member for West Perth (.1r. McDonald) ciatedt with arld icatinns miade to the court. sprang to the defence of the Full Court Ill this respect the Licensing Court is much and pointed out that suchi cases involved the same as, any' other. court. It funcetions. issues that were highly contentious and that ais a itidieial body. it was niot unusual for the court having the MI., Patrick : The court refilses t c ar- )last guess toi settle the issuie. What gives evidence. rise to such conitenitionls ill connectionl with Thel( MI1NISTER FO'(R JU-STICE: T11e those issues? Is it not that the weight of miembers of the court have d1iseharged tiwir argumntt or evidence on both sides is, such duty without fear or favour. The sugge--s- hat it is harmd to disting-uish where the tion hr the memlber for. Kalowln (Ifr. -Nal- g-reater wveighlt lies, and so the verdict hangs; sell) that the court acted without, discre- iii the Iatnce ! That ha rrneons iii every typie tien Was absurd. Other memlibers 1)assed of court, whether it he a lower court. +-ho uneompi iniiitai rv remiarks about the cnrt Slulureuce Court. the Full Court or- the High and endleavoittred to justify their stitteneits Court. Always there are cases requiring Iby ex-parte asertions. The members (if attention inl which it is difficult to arrive th Licensing Court are responsible -for- IIr- ait a decision based upion thme evidence a- rivinmg at decisions oii aipplications referred duced. to them. M1r. Patirick : 'it is very difficult if the -Mrl.Patriek: But iii accordance with the court does ilot accept evidence. evidence. The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: In The MINISTER FOR. JU:STICE: Ill ar- such4 instanceps there are bound to be dmf- rn'tng- at decisions the court is bound to ferences of opinion. The Licensing- Court disappoint somecone, and is certain to create is niot differenit front any other tribunlal inl ocflilfies amiongst disappointed applicants. I that resluect. 1Froin tulle to tulle it is faced submit that if the court makes enemies, that with issues upon which it is difficutt to ar-- is more an indication that it is doingc its job rv at a decision. Whatever the decision, than otherwise. No court, however- (*Oil- there is hound to be disappointment. Those stituted, inl eomsideriiug opiiliecations and iii favour of the license consider they have evidence onl the issues raised, canl deal with put up a good case to warrant the granting matters so clear and well deined that its of the application, whereas those opposing decisions can remnove Al possibility of dis- the apldication consider they hav-e mnade Sen sionl. equally good Submissions. The court has to 3]r 1xMarshaill: But when tile court wvill arrive at its decision. I know of no court, niot listen to evidence, what then? the decisions of which arc niot questioned Time MINISTER. FOR JUSTICE: That alt times. During the debate the statement is another question. w-as made that one memiber of the Licensing Mr. Patrick:. And a v-ery- important qunes- Court had granted a license in which lie tion. was interested. I presumne the reference Thne MINISTER. FOR JUSTICE: Tile was to M1r. A. IS. McClintock, because a Whole process or legal disputationl-inl- newspaper published in Perth levelled that eludillg issues. that require for their settle- charge against hint with regard to ai hotel mnit the ap~pointimelnt of) an arhitrator, or at Denmark. It was asserted that he was in connection with such matters as are dealt, ai menmber of the Licensing Bench, and wvas with by1 the Licensing Court where deci- ait the sanme time associated with a hotel sionls must emierge ultimately from a variety whlen a provisional license for the preituses of factors and1 circumistances and in their was granted. In justice to 'Mr. McClintock, determination maust le thle outcome of the at any rate in connection with that license, exercise of mental p~rocesses that caLnnot be f7 wish to state the facts. MrLIYMcClintock reduced to a matter of mechanical accuracy was appointed to the Licensing Bench in -must of necessity lead to some dispute Auigust, 1926. The provisional certificate for or differenic of opinion as to the wisdom or the new license and erection of a hotel at justification of the decisions arrived at. A Denmark was granted onl the 26th March, little while hack the mnember for Mlurchi- 1926, or about four or five months prior son (M1r. Marshall) drew attention to the to -,%r. MeClintock's appointmnt to the [25 OCToQR3F, 1038.] 11583

'Licensing Court. I have known two mem- Western Australia. He is not blunt or bers of the Jpresent Licensing- Court for at direct. Hie is highly polished, suave and least 15 years, and the chairman for the polite. past 2.5 years. No member of this House Mr. Patrick: The two extremes! is so entitled to wear the white flower of The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Yes, a blamneless life that hie can point the finger perhiaps. of scorni at ally member of the present court. Mir. Raphael: Cannot you strike a happy Mr. Raphael : "Let him thait is without sina medium? east the first stonec." The MINISTER FORl JUSTICE: I The -MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: If would rather have a malilnplain, diriect and those who have so readily, cast aspersions honest than iai n with excellent manners hadl their own sins written on. their fore- hut dishonest. '[le duity devolves upon these head,, they' would probably be found pull- genitlemnii of testing the evideiice placed be- ugt their eaps wrell dlown over their eyes. fore them. The applicant may have repre- Mr. Marshall: Don't be in too much of a senitation, Ibnt no persoi i is appea ring onl be- burry to eondetn -yoursclf. half of the Licensing Court, so the members The "MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I am miutst make inquiries and test the evidence. probably in that position as much as other No doubt a similar duty devolves upon people, hut E sugg est our attitude towards judges iln other cour ts, but not exactly in onle an otheri shonulI be onle of svyImpa thy anrd the Samne wav, because those judges have t oleratiloll, which wouldl at least he anl some assistance. The Crowin Prosecutor aicknowledgmuent of our- own h'feets anid elicits evidence and tests it, so the necessity in tile ordinary course for making inquiries fHon. C. 0. LATEtAMA: Even although is not so great as it is in the Licenlsing Court. 'von know you have been doing wrong? [n the course of testing evidence, tile niil- The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: When bers of the Licens i i Court must ask many T itnn,- T ,,,n, ...... iH-t mantte r altogether. When we do wrong, we Mr'. Patrick : Youli diti they ought to kntow it. as thle hl. mnemlber is well awareo. lear the evidence? I have a high regarid for thle integrity and The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I am hoete of purpose of the present members not referring to the particular eir'enstanees ofteLicensing Court. mentioned b)y the membi er for Greeiiough, Mr. Cross : You aire not alone in tliat. about which I know niothiing. The -MINISTERl FOR JUSTICE: I amt M[r. Styants: It would be interesting- to in, a position to sa , that, beca use r have hear the other side of that case. known them for so muanyvyeais. We irslially Mr-. Patrick: It is correct. gilve references to pl~el whom we know, The MINISTERI FOR? JUSTICE: I am beause we have the opportunlity\ of judg- not here to jtlstifv tile decision of the Licens- in their character and honesty. The hon- ig Court oil airy Inatter, because the memi- esty of the three members of the licensing- hers of the eourt ar ic "cted with certaiii beanch ('anni ot lbe jllp ugnied. Al i atItemapt was ])ewVers arid miust accept responsibility for made to discredit tlirn,, Mention wvas mla Jr theii' decisions. They hear the witnesses and of the attitude of the chairman. It was said are riuch better fitted to a irii-e at at decision lit' could speaiik the iEn gishI lir trtra (or-C' upon any- app1lcat ion than is any mrember reelY. f si nce'relv trust we ,,hall not Ile conl- of this Htouse ii l ax-pa ite statemlenits of deined because we cannrot speak thle EngrlishI interested p~ersonls. Ia rigiage correctly. VerY few people indeed Oui- present Ilicenisinhg sYstemi a rose out of carl avoid the many pitfalls onl the road to a BillI that was introduced in this House in correct speech. One beol. member said that 1921 by the Mitchell Government. During these gentlemen were blunt and direct. The the discussion onl that Bill, so rmnny amend- chairman may he blunt. ments were suggested and subriittedl that the ,Mr. Marshall : He is ilot lblun t; lie is Goverinmenit eventuail ' appointed a select igloranlt. committee to inquire~ into the raniifications The INISTER FOR JU'STICE: Onl the of the liquor trade arid make suggestions for other hand, we were talking here the other the amiendmnent of the Licensing Act. That evening about a mail who is supposed to committee was afterwai-ds-ori the 11th Feb- halve ruined the goldiining industry of ruaryv, 1922-appointed anl honorary Royal 1586 [ASSEMBLY.]

Commission and examined 151 witnesses. certain authority to delegate to local uigis- Two of the members of that Royal Comniis- trates powers in connection with renewals sion visited the Eastern States to secure data and transfers because of the impractica- about licenising matters. At that ltme, 919 bility of one authority dealing with all those licenses of various kinds were in force in matters. The members of the court, however: Western Australia. The State wvas divided do deal with those niatters in every part of into licensing districts; a police magistrate the State at some time or other, and so are and two justices of the peace presided afforded an opportunity to get to know the over the Licensing Court in each district. people in the trade, while the people in the Wer all know how unsatisfactory that Systel I trade have an opportunity to get to know was. Before the Act wats amiended, we hall the members of the court. That was one o local option every three 'years. The result wvas the strong points made by the Royal Corn- that in those districts where licenses were mission. It was copied from Victoria because more numerous than the population required, the Commission felt that a great amount of the people voted for continuance; but inl good had accrued from the licensing author- those districts where the number of licensv, itv travelling aill over the State and dealing- was fewer than the ipopulation warranted, with the whole of the ramnifications of the the people voted for reduction. Local optiona liivuor trade. Thus uniformity was secured, proved to be both ineffective and illogical. ai the result was, as the member for Kid- Prior to 1911, however, we had much the goorlie has pointed out, a great improvement same system as we would have if we reverted in the licensed premises throughout the coun- to the system of a court comprised of a police try districts. From my experience of travel- magistrate and two justices of the peace, who ling through the country T know how dif- were emp)owered to hear applications for new ferent are the hiotel now fromt those of years licenses. Most of the evils associated with the ago. liquor traffic in this State were dueo to the Mr. Cross: X vast improvement. fact that we had too many hotels in many' M1ember: That would be natural under districts throughout the State. The licensO a 11v administration. for those hotels had in most instances been The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: If that granted previous to 1911. Under that system, is natur-e] under any administration, why the Licensing Court wvas comprised of at was it not so before 1911 and why was it police magistrate and two justices of the not so before 1922? peace. There was no uniformity in the busi- lion. C. G. Latham: Because the law was niess at all. The greatest evil associated with amended in 1922. W\e tightened up the law it was that there were too many licenses in tremendously. many districts. All sections of the commun- The MINISTER FOil JUSTICE: It was ity in Kalgoorlie gave evidence that the not tightened up to that extent. licenses in that district could he reduced Mr. Mlarshal The Minister does not know by at least 50 per cent. That is a slight a thing about it or lie would not be talking indication of some of the evils that existed like that. under that system. Some members of the The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I know Commission went to the Eastern States to iime conditions. make inquiries. Ta reporting the Commnis- Hon. C. G1. Latham: The member for sion referred to the valuable data brought Murchison will hie keeping uts here till 2 back for consideration by the members who o'clock. had made those inquiries. They found that 21,-. Marshnall: [ ami not concerned about the system of a licensing court for the that. whole of the State had been in operation The -MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: The in New South Wales since 1906 and that new Act was passed after a very exhaustive it was subsequently copied by Victoria in inquiry into the whole matter by at Royal 1916, and that in both States it had oper- Commission. Let me give some indication ated very successfully and satisfactorily, of the attitude of people towards those who as I may say it has operated in Western were charged with making decisions under Australia. So the Royal Commission re- the licensing Act. When the Bill was before commended the appointment of a licensing the IHouse in 1922 an amendment was moved, court to deal with the whole of the licens- and supported by many members, seeking ing business in the State, the court to have to prevent any memiber of the then Perth [2-5 OCrOBER, 1933.] 1587

Licensing Bench from being appointed to sionI no details are given. If we are the new court. 'That attitude was adopted roin to pass for payment certain sums of because of the decisions that the Perth money, and then permit exces o'er those Licensing Bench had made in connection amounts, the Committee should be informned with the reduction of several hotels in the of what is being. done. metropolitan area arising out of a local op- tion vote. Mlembers can have it as they like. The Minister for .Thstiee: They are only If they feel that the members, who then estimates. voted to exclude from the new court ay Hon. C. G. LATHAM: That is what we member or the old Perth Licensing Bench p~ass. When they are exeessed, we should because of the decisions given iii consequence know the reason. If the Minister is goin~g of the local option ])oll, were justified, it is to put up that argument, the sooner we anl indication how those bodies might ope- close down the better. The Committee would rate if theyvwero restored under some nlever have known anything about the item amending legislation. Onl the other hand if I have referred to-the money paid to Mr. it is felt that those members were not justi- Wolff-if it had not been for the Auditor fled in questioning the decision of that tri- General' qaying it was charged against the bunal-T do not know anything of the cir- wrong Vote. By Act of Parliament we eumstanees-well, I feel that a body charged transfer the powters of this House to dif- with making decisions does its best on the ferent authorities, and the very little con- evidence available and that the decisions trol wev now have we arev simiply handing, should not be questioned. We have all sorts over to tile Minister, and we mnightt as well of critics of those lplaced in p)ositiofls where close down altogether. The day must come they must make decisions. Members have when Parliament must secure better control only to go to the Subiaco Football Ground of the finances of the State. If not, we shall to get evidence of that. The Football League get into the same trouble as many countries experienced _reat difficulty, in gettin.g Vii.nnn in in flmofi~ n ilini . umpires, and Yet around the ground isa host and failing fast; let members make no mis- of critics, every one of. them posing as an take about that. Ministers of the Crown, umpire.. irrespective of party, are becoming auto- Mr. Cross: And all of them are right. crats and dictators. The MIN[ISTER FOR JUSTICE: TheyN The premier: Sometimes they are slaves presume to have a knowledge of thle game to thle system. and infer that the man charged with the responsibility of controlling the game knows Hon. C. G. LATHAM: That may be so. nothing about it. Simiularly with the They have not the backbone to stand up Licensing- Court; the members of the against it. court are the umptires who have to mnake The Premier: Oh, yes! the deisions onl the evidence placed before Hon. C. G. LATHA2I : The Auditor them, and L feel that the condition of is our servant and( not the 'Mini- the trade in this State and the honest v of. General ister's, and in future when these Votes are purpose that has elaracterised the present members of the Li censi 'w Court . si excessed lie should give us the reason. On this occasion he lhas not done so. their continuance inl office. Mr. Lambert: It might a matter of Item, salaries and allowvances, etc. be policy. The Auditor General is not there Hon. C. G. LATHAM: Under this itemi to deal with matters of policy. two amounts are shown, leave onl retirement Hon. C. G. LATHAM: He is there to f470, and extra remuneration £291. On showv what becomes of the money. The looking at the Estimates for last year I find accountant who makes up the statement, or that thec amounts were £956 and £250. Those tile Under Treasurer, or whoever it is, should were the amounts authorised by Parliament. show us the position. The Committee will I wvish to protest against those votes being not oppose anything reasonable. As a mem- excessed wvithout Parliament having an op- ber of the Chamuber, I propose to tell the portunity to know why they were excessed Auditor General that in future I expect to and the purpose for which the money was know from lin the reason for excesses. used. Generally the details are set out in the statement of accounts, but on this occa- Vote put and passed. 1588 [ASSEMBLY.]

Vote-Licensing, £3,090: po~sessiiig unhinited powers would be the Item, Salaries and Allowances, £2,840. proper tribunal to cope with the situation. Mr. RAPHAEL: I move an amiendment- The Minister for Justice: A licensing court That the itema be reduced by £2,839. was also appointed under the same Act. Mr. M1ARSHALL: There was a court for There is no need to reiterate what T. have each district. The Minister inferred that the already aid regarding0 1 ny opinion of the present court was the outcome of the inquir ,y conduct of the court and my estimate of its held at the time the Licenses Reduction Board usefulness to the Commun1111ity . In assessing was appointed. That is wrong. The Parlia- the Ealarv of the three members at £1 I amn ment of 1921-22 was influenced by the posi- being more than generous. tion that existed then, and felt the necessity Mrr. MARSHALL: I tried to point for appointing a board to effect the necessary out, when speaking onl the Estimiates a reductions in licenses. From what the Mtin- few evening's ago, that such a move ister said, members may think that Parlia- is uitterly impossible inasnmuch as the court exists as the result of an Act ment ag&reed at that timie to the appointmient of Parliament, and the only way to get of the present court. That is not the case. over tile difficulty is to amend the law. The The Minister for Justice: Members of the hon. member could have moved to reduce Commission sulpported the proposal to ap- the item to £1 as a protest. That is as fa~r point a licensing bench. as we can go in that regard. InI order to Mr. MARSHA-LL: To bring about a re. gt over the job I have in front of til as, duetion of licenses. I1do not want the Minis- quickly as possible I ma *y as well say what ter to mislead members who were not in this I have to say on this matter in speaking to Chanibem at the time. the amendment. There is an adage,' "There The Minister for Justice: I would be ini;S- is none so blind as those that will not see." leading myself if I did. The 'Minister can safely be placed in that MAr., MARSHALL: My inmpression wals lie category. wikhel the Chamber to believe that Parhioa The Minister for Justice: There is also nmat was influenced in creating the court ws another which says, "Wise mcii make pro- wte know it to-day, whereas we were in- verbs and fools quote them."- fluened by the necessity for reducing the Mr. MPAR3SHALL: Now we naly get on number of licenses. The Minister and tihe with the discussion. The 'Minister's defence member for Kalgoorlie have used thle sima was probably justified, having romirdl to the old arguments that have been uised for yea re. very little knowledge the Minister has of namiely, that the Licensing Court has imi- the licensing laws. I assumedi that the Min- proved] the standard of oar. hotels. ister knew something about the old and the Mr. St,yants: I can give you profl of that. new licensing laws, but after having listened Mr. MARSHALL: Has the couirt i nproveil to him I have comle to the conclusion that the standard of thle United Ser-vcev Hotel in he is not too conversant with either. Let ip deal wvith the licensing laws as they are the heart of the city? to-day. I will deal With thle investigation Mr, Styantbi: One swallow tioes not make a to which hie referred. The recommendation summer. of the Royal Commnission-and I was in the 11r. Raphael: Has the dirve ini Barracek- Chamber when the Licensinir Bill was street been improved? being discussed -which 1Parliamnent sup- M1r, MLARSHTALL: The Palace Hotel, tho ported was thle nppointm~nl~t of a1 license's Savoy Hotel, the Esplanade Motel, the Fed- redluction hoard. Seemioiig il e Minister eral Hotel, and others I could mention were' tlid not know that. As a matter of built long before the Licenses, Redaction fact, the Licenses Reduction Board did Board was created, and they appear to be little but reduce licenses du1ring thle modern hotels. Is not theI Placte Hotel six years it was in existence, The thorrnightly imp-tn-dae, and suitable in everyv Licenses; Reduction Board had no rela- way for the purpose for which it wats de- tionship to the present Licensing Court. The signed? No hoard was required to bring that arg-ument advanced at the time the board was into existence. c reated was that too many hotels had conic Mr. Styants: How could the hoard have into existence, and this Chamber clung to the created it when it had not been brought into suggestion that a licenses reduction board existenice? [25 OCTOBER, 193S.] 1589

Mr. MAR SHALL: The lboard could not ing. That work would not be greatly ini- live improved the standard of our hotels at creased by their hearing applications for that timec hod it not been for the Act that new licenses. was passed when the board was created. Thme 'Minister for Justice: The Licensing Under the ol(d Act no magistrate had powecr Court hears some of those applications on to complel a licensee to add more rooms than the Murchison. ivcre required by the staff. Mr. MARSHALL: When the court fails Hon. P. D. Ferguson: The public demand to delegate its powers to magistrates. 1 lbrought about miany improvements. do not know that any of our magistrates Mr. MARSHALL: Yes. I want members% are so overw-orked that the little extra duty to be fair- and to refrain from giving the imposed upon them in bearing apllications court more credit than belongs to it. The for new licenses would be beyond their Minister referred to hotels onl the goldfields. cnjpacity. The -Minister said there was We know the standard that existed there hound to 1)0 criticism of the Licensing some years ago. Court by friends of disappointed appli- Hon. C. G. Latham: '[le court is causingx cants. I dto not take that remark to my- people to erect more expensive buildings than Self, for I have no friends who are dis- circumstances justify. appointed appl icants for licenses. -My cri- i~.MARSHALL: The Leader of the ticisin of the court is not inspired by any Opposition should be careful. That is not feeling of that kind. But I have sat in altogether due to the action of the court. So the court on two occasions at Wiluna and many people arc trying to get licenses be- Meekutharra listening to the chairman tak- ing evidence. All I have said about the cause of the monopoly that goes with themn, chairman I adhere to, as it springs from that when tendering for a license they are inclined to submit plans and specifications may personal attendance at the sittings of the court. After my last speech on the f~ b,,;IXb,. fldIlO- A-oc.;,nrnF the Subject of the1 iclensing CuurL, i recUe'Va district. Under the old Act every miagistrate even telegrrams of congratulation, in addi- who adjudicated upon the application for a lioa to letters. One letter accused mec of license was no doubt influenced by' the fact. not attacking- the chairman of the Licens- that each new license brought further revenue ing Court vigorously enough. No applicant to the State. has a kind word to say of the chairman. Mr. Patrick : Did not one wvarden acetually According to the Premier, the board de- say SO? cides onl the evidence; but how caa it do M~fr.iMARSHALL: A specific figure was so if the chairman will not let an appli- charged for each type of license in the old cant state his case-? One applicant had a days. Magistrates naturally decided it did prominent Perth lawyer appearing for himn. not matter blow many hotels camne into exist- Presently, that lawyer said, 'Your Wor- ence, that men would not drink more because ships, as I am not permitted to present my greater facilities were offered to them, and case, I will leave the court.'' The case that every new license would bring £50 or was niever presented. Can a court adjudi- £60 to the Treasury' . Hotel keepers could not cate fairly upon evidence if the court will be compelled to p~rovide certain accommioda- not hear the evidence? tion and other requisites such as must be pro- Mr. Styants: Solicitors often walk siet vided to-day. Probably tile court has en- of court when they know they cannot win forced the Act fairly fully, but a magistrate .a ease. could do so in the samie way. There Mr. MARSHALL: There is no force in would be quite a diffecrent picture un- that observation. The lion. membnr inter- der the rule of magistrates to-day as jecting, in an apologetic way, defended the compared with their jurisdiction under the chairman of the court, calling him an old Act. If the miagistrates took over the abrupt man. Thme chairman refers to people work of the Licensing Court, they would, as ''liars'' and tells them to ''shut up.'' it is said, have far more work than they That is typical behaviour of the chairman could cope with. I cannot speak for the towards witnesses. Another practice aot city, but anywhere onl the goldfields magis- uncommon with him is to go into hotels at trates do the bul1k of the Licensing Court's Mfeekatmarra and Wiluna and tell thme licen- work-all the renewals and all the polic- sees to hunlt out every permanent boarder 1590 1590[ASSEMBLY.] and lodger onl thle premises. He says the Mr. MARSHALL: I am not dealing with law does not provide for permanent boar- ex-parte statements or with what I have been ders or lodgers, but only for travellers. told, hut am criticising the court on the basis Mr. Lambert: That is true. of my personal knowledge of what has hap- Mr. MARSHIALL: I know it is the law. pened. Apparently Murchison miners must become Mr. Styants: A most biased, lop-sided and human camels in order to provide lodgings unjust attack! for travellers. The miners have to main- 'Mr. MARSHALL: The hon. member did tain the bar by drinking. The chairman of not give as the court's explanation regarding the court should not go about telling land- the gallon license at Wiluna. He has access lords to hunt boarders and lodgers out. to the files, but he did not deal with that. W1'hen the Act was reviewed, we were careful Mr. Styants: I will look into that matter to see that travellers were catered for, and and ,get the explanation. we finished up that work by providing for Mir, MARSHALL: Wiluna has a poptula- travellers only. I resent the attitude adopted tion of 7,000 who are resident in four towns. by the Chairman of the Licensing Court and Mr. Styants: And it has four hotels. I would certainly like to see the member for Mr. MARSHA.LL: I do not know whether East Perth (Mr. Hughes) present a case the fourth hotel was established when thle before hint. I disagree with the member for application for the transfer of the gallon Kalg-oorlie (Mr. Styants) regarding the uni- license was lodged. form policy that would he carried out if we Mr. Patrick: There is a town in my elec- had the old methods of administration under torate with 500 inhabitants and there arc the termis of the existing Act. In my three hotels and a couple of g-allon licenses opinion, a local magistrate would know much as well. more about the requirements of his district Mr. MARSHALL: The storekeeper at thana members of the Licensing Court who, Wiluna delivers goods to customeors miles out for instance, arc never seen in the Murehi- of Wiluna. Although Ilieme i eonly one son unless there is an application for a gallon licemnse there, the court refuscdi n license. In those circumstances, what can application for the transfer. No doubt the the members of the licensing bench know court canl advance some explanation in justi- about local requirements there, more par- fication of its attitude, just as any magis- ticularly as tile chairman refuses to listen trate or judge canl do so with regard to his to evidence when it is available? Thle mem- decisions. I have stated the facts. We have ber for Kalgoorlie accused members of lis- heard talk of the honesty m.id( iniegrity of tenling to the complaints of people who had the members of the court. I will assume that grievances against the Licensing Court, and they are honest. Who11appointed thle Court? suggested we were disappointed because our Mr. Styants: Sir James Mitchell reap- friends had not succeeded in securing pointed thle chairman in 10,30. licenses. Mr. MARSHALL: I have no arg-ument to A-r. Hughes: And that some members bad raise -against any member of Pa,.liament in- approached thle court! Vestimig his money in anly wamy hie chooses, Mr. Styants: Yes, and I stand by that hut I do take exception to the fact that ny statement. man who has power to appoint the members Mr. MARSHALL: The hion. member of the LiceningD Court, has at the same time should disclose their names here. ine will invested his money iii the liquor trade. I not he found among them. He attacks other take strong exception to that. members who have attempted to see that Mr. Hughes: Some have shares in hotels justice is done to the taxpayers who have without having made any investment at all. had to go to. expense in connection with Mr. Styants: How many membhers of applications made to the court. He can go Parliament are in that category 7 to the department, and go through files in Mr. M-NARSHALL: I take Strong excep- order to present thle views of the court and, tion. to that, and I do not think I need go of course, hie can do no wrong! He is justi- any further, as members understand what is fied in listening to the court's tale of woe behind my statement. There is only one and desires to do the court justice. manl who appointed that court, amid I need Mr. Styants : Who launched thep attack not say any more. If individuals who are first, you or the eourt7 dependent upon a person for appointment [25 Ocronan, 193$.] 159159

or reappointment to such a court, later find member for Murchison is pure. I think his that that person has made an application for very useful contribution to the debate could a liquor license, seeing that it does not have been directed to the personnel and matter to the court or to the community possibly to the reconstruction of the Licens- who secures the license, who is likely to get ing Court. In the discussion he sho wed, that license? Without casting any asper- sometimes in a vindictive way, that hie has sions, I respectfully suggest that it is merely a little knowledge of the licensing laws of human nature if the members of the court the State. are inclined to reciprocate. I frankly con- Mr. Marshall: YOU ought to be an autho- fess that if I were a member of the court, rity upon them. I would be inclined to act accordingly in Mr. LAMBERT: I would rather be anl similar circumstances. authority upon them than be anl authority on Mr. Styants: And you measure every one's many things upon which the hn. member is corn by your own bushel. an authority. Mr. MARSHALL: I attribute to every one0 just ordinary human nature. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. Styants: You could not understand it Member: The member for ]Nutrchison is not no t being done. vindictive. NJ'. MTARSHALL: I have held respon- Mr. LAMBERT: Some 25 years ago, our sible positions and if I had cared to be dis- Licensing Act provided that a local honest, I could now be a millionaire. That magistrate, sitting with one, two or ihire is more than the member for Kalgoorlie can justices of the peace, should have authority say. I have handled vast quantities of gold to grant licenses; and licenses were granited and have not lost a granmme. I have lived indiscriminately, particularly on the gold- an honest life and I cannot understand that fields, and some, of course, in the metro- what is wrong, for one person can be right politan area. A Royal Comnmission was, few~ nnothe~r. Pnlitiaq is rntto'n from that appointedl in 1921 or 1922 to inniro into standpoint, and I cannot ag-ree with it. I the liquor traffic. I think the then member (10 not care whether it be a Labour or an for Perth (Mr. Mfann) wVas chairman. I do anti-Labour man, I deplore such an attitude. not know whether the present member for I cannot help it. 'My disposition gets sac Bunbury was a member of the Commission. into bother because of that fact. If it is Mr. Marshall.: I will say lie was, not. He wrong for the Leader of tho Opposition to was not even a member of Parliament then. (10 something,1 it is wrong- for me to do it. I Mr. TLAMBERTf: The commission made take uip that attitude, and I do not care an exhaustive examination of the licensing where it leads me. I ami just as honest as laws of Australia. It was found that the has been any member for Kalgoorlie, in- licensing laws in force in Victoria at that cluding the present member. time caine neairest to what we considered Mr. Styants: You said you were more nces.sary to regulate the liqluor trade in this honiest than 1. State. Thec Bill that was passed at the time MAr. MARSHALL: -No. has given a considerable amuount of satis- Mr. Styants: Ye;, you did. factioni, notwithstanding that the member for Mr. 'MARSHALL: The hon. member in- Meurcliison finds; much, fault with it. The fers that I am dishonest. Licensing- Court, even with its dlefec-ts, must The Minister for Employment: No. he given credit for having done a Job that Mr. M1ARSHALL: I would not be here no magistrate could do. If the member for to-day if I had been disbonest, My only Murehison knew the ainmalies that existed regret is that I ever darkened the doors of under our licensing laws before they were the House. amended inl 19211 or 1922-I do not want to go back- -Mr. LAMBERT: The outburst by the member for 'Murchison was remarkable. Nrr. 'Marshall: Go bac:k. I want to know. Mfr. Hughes: NYot as remarkable as ftbe Mr. L-0ME3ERT : if the lion. meinletr were onle we shall get. to go back, lie would discover how many Mr. LAMTBERT: It reminds me of my ainmalies existed at that tie. I could stand reading of French philosophy. A French here for a week and speak about them. philosopher said that lie sinned to remain The Mrinider for Employment : Oh! pure, and if to sin is to remin pure, the Mr. Cross : DDo not carry out that (treat. P51l tASSEMNBLY.]

AMr. LAMIBERT: I hand a motion draftedl tintg it, beeause the leqse is probably mak- that the (ioveruniueiit lie requested to review ing twice as much. Tfherefore, the capital the personnel of the court. I think that would he returned inl three years at the out- possibly a very smnall part indeed of! the side if the hotel were conducted on a lpro- shocking exaiggeration of the member for pe r basis. Murchison is trule; but that is no r-easonl why, I repeat that 3.ha9ve. nothing at all to say we should revert to tile old s;Vsteni. No4 aga11inst the owners and the lessee of the member of the IHouse has made out -a more hotel. I candidly admit, that the hotel could forcible case iii favour of the Ijicensiii, not be conducted better. At the same timec Court anti our- present sv.4em than has the SI0 Iper (!eutt. of the people want a second Minister. There is i10oquestion about that. hotel, and some consideration should be Because soine i 1s111101itited appl)1ican t for aI given to their irequest. 'rie whole of the hotel license has maude a. complaint, that is unionists in 'Norsentan haive asked for a sec- not to say thle c!Ourt is corrupt. 1 know end liniel, and have asked mie to do my best nothig about the Licensing Court. and to get it granted. Against the 80 per cent. about those who make aplplications for who wvant the second hotel, not one of the licenses. 1 do know, however, that thle pre- minister-s of religion has objected, although sent system is infinitely better than, I shall file hotel business is against their prineiple. not say the corrupt, but wrong systemi that They agree that a second hotel should he Prevailed previously. granted., I was speaking to Sergeant Archi- Mr. NULSEN: 1 am11soriy to have to hald inlthe street the other day, and lie speak at tis hour. expi-essed i-egrevt that hie had not seen me Mr. Mrarshall: We have oftenl been here before f spoke previously'v on the Licensinlg later. Court. lie said, "You could have emphan- Mr. NViLSEY : lBnt I cannot refrain fronm sisvd what you said about the'chairman, who sp)eaking onl the maitter. I spoke the otlher WAS inulting- to tilie and cast a slur on the night on thle policy of the court-notlig' in itegritty of Ihe police of Western Austra- else. I did not criticise the initegrityv of the lia. Y'ou can sayv that from ine for what members of the couirt; I ciriticised what t hey it is worth." Sonlic menibers are acquainted were doing. T most eimphatically repeat. with Sergeant. Archibald and know that he on behalf of 8O per cent, of the iieople- of' us ain witstandig iali, earnest in his work, Norseman, that they object to -a one-hotel fair anid Just inlever;- way, and hy no monopoly. 'i'le member for h Liiri no-valus a hull;. Yet we have the Chairman doubted inv statement about the renlt. of the( Licensing Couirt abusing him and Mr. Styants: One hundred iiouiul a week. eciarginig him with corrulption. It is im- Mr. NVLSE"N: About £200 a week. T possible, to refute those facts. Is it right repeat what I saiid the other igh-It, OWhathe tha-twvhenu an application. is made for a rent of the! oldl hotel and thle shop amounlits; second hotel, the owners of the existing to about £E100 a week. Th,'le hotel and] ,hmot hottel should apply to make additions for are coninected, becaulse tile lienise was linuls- one purpose only,'nniely, to block the ferred fronm te Freemiasons' Hotel. I think building of the seoiid hotel? Does not that in 1934; aid( the lessee reoted the o1(1 pnc- indicate ai uiiderstaiiding between the mises as. well as the Shop, and bothl niaturl- Licensing Court and the owners, namely, ally c-nie untder the one heading. Tilt reit in1 tht if -they spend so muchel money in maqk- as I say, is £1.00 a week, and if a evaleula- ing- additinuis, whether those additions are tion be made, it will he found that thle necessar-y or otherwise, they will keep out owners have nearly recouped their capital a1seconld hotel? expenditure. Inlan ,N case, would net the Mr. Styvants: If the accommodation is hotel earry aI -apitalisationl of half' the suifficient, what is fltevirtue in having a amount ex pended upon it? Why should second hotel?, these people hi-e all their mioney returned Mr. XVI.SEN: Whyv should thieresidents to themn before another hotel is erected? Oil have tot tolerate thleInconvenience of a bar the other bauid. I sat'y emphatically that if em1-owded to the extent that this one is? -why consideration is to he shown to the owners should all nlitionalil ies be forced to mnix to the extent of giving themn the righdt to in the one hotel?7 Why deprive the police recoup their capital expenidituire, they should oiffte control that could be exercised if conducft. the lintel themnselves instead or' let- a second lintelwern granmted? [25 Goroaza, 193S.] 159919

Mr. Styants: Do not those men mnix at other day I received a letter from the Pros- wvorkl pectors' Association signed by the chair- Mr. NTILSEN: Yes. main, stating that there were 50 memtbers Mr. Raphael: But it is a different matter of the association and the 50 wvanted an- mixing in liquor. other hotel at N-orseunan. Those people M.1r. NULSEN: Quite different. are entitled to fair treatment, and I cannot FHon. C. G. Lathama: And there are other see any reason wh 'y it should not be matters, the size of the gins;, the brands granted. We have only one hotel for a of liquor, courtesy. to customers, and all fair-sized polpulation, but ishen air appli- those considerations. cation wvas made byr a well-known store- MAr. NTJLSEN: That is so. It is not nice keeper for a gallon license-his integrity for patrons to have to stand hack and have could not be doubted-the application was a pot of beer handed past four or five refused. As the member for M~urchison people. No wonder trouble occurs. Fur- mentioned these storekeepers travel 20 ther, the bar cannot be kept clean when it or 30 miles and deliver their goods, but is so overcrowded. I have seen over 400 the Licensing -Court would not grant a people in the lbars and adjoining rooms. gallon license. There is only one billiard Such overcrowding is not desirable. The saloon ill Norseman. Sonic men: on the overcrowding is not confined to Saturdays. golddields are apt to be rough. in mnner, It occurs on sports days, pay days- though they are good within, but there Hon. C. G. Latham: And Sundays? are others who prefer a quiet game of bil- Mr. NULSEN: I would not deny that. liards. and lprefer to play with their own There are two sessions on Sunday-one of friends. The Licensing- Court, however, de- two hours in the morning, and one of two clined to allow a second saloon. Evidently hours in the afternoon, buit unless a man the court considers that people can well is very thirsty it is almost impossible for wait for their game. The existing saloon

to get a drink, but was unsuccessful, as the play. I repeat that the court is injudi- bar was so crowded. cious arid devoid of discretion. I have The Minister for M%-ines: Did -not we lay seen the evidence placed before the court, the water on to Norsenian a while ago? and I maintain that onl the evidence an- Mr. NULSEN: The Licensing Court ie other hotel is justified. The only opposi- not consistent. The population of Norse- tion to the granting of a second license was malll is ahout 2,500. The member for Mur- that of the owners arid licensee of the chison said that the population of Wiluna present hotel. I do not blame them for is 7,000. There are four hotels at Wilunia, their opposition; I do not blame them a but there is only one at Norseman. I would scrap. The Inenmber for Kalgoorlie inferred nol feel concerned if we had a second hotel that there had been contact with the at Norseinan so that a man would have the Licensing Court. I did go to tine Licensing opioni of~ patronisinig one or the other. Court. I took the secretary of the A.W.U. Mr. Styants: Are there 2,500 adults inl in Norsemnan and we discussed the po~sition Norseman?~ with Mr. Burgess anid _Mr. Barker. The Mr. NULSEN : No, that is the total chairman was not present. We expressed poptilation. if tile court were consistent the opinion that 'Norsenian warranted a it would grant a second license at Norse- second hotel. If I had a chance again to man, seeing that it granted a fourth license do that, I would do it, because I represgent at Wilunla for a population of 7,000. people that wvant to be treated fairl 'y and Gmrenbushes, with a population of 900, I, consider I was lustifled in. doing ws-fat I has two hotels. Bridgetown has a popu- did. I am quite prepared to nccelpt the lation, of 2,000 odd, and has responsibility for my action and to tell four hotels. The court should be members of the Chamber exactly' what I did. conlsistenlt. I have no interest whatever in MLL.Styants: Confession is good for the the matter, except that I am speaking on soul. behalf of the people. I have not even a Mr. NULS EN: Perhaps, if one were friend desirous of applying for a hotel, gruilty of a misdeed and wanted to escape and have no connect ion whatever with any thle consequences, but I am not guilty of one interested in getting a hotel there. The dishonesty. W"hat I did was hnonourable. 1594 [ASSEMBLY.]

I certainlyv consider that -Norsemnan was enl- lie would see that (here was not muchl op- titled to a hotel in p)reference to the g-rant- position. When the police and the churches ing of at license for the Captain Stirling are in favour of a second license, there can- Hotel. People at Dalkeith do not have to not be too much wrong. travel very far to Claremont, or a. little Mr. McDONALD: I was pleased to hear further down to Nedlands, in order to oh)- lie member for 1.algoorlie make a speech taizn the accommlodation they need. But in which lie put forward something of all at Norsemn there is congestion and if a answer onl behialf of the Licensing Court. manl does not feel like pushing his way in Members are sometimes Concerned about and getting splashed with beer, hie must the fact that people who occupy offices remain dry. in the Civil Service, and particularly high Hon. P. D. Ferguson: 11e couldl go to offices, call lic the subject of attack in this IKalg-oorlic. Chamber and have no opportunity of reply- Mr. NULSEN: Yes, or to Salmton Gainis igl. I do not care wvhat is said by one muem- I do not advocate the abolition of the court l)or of the Chamber to another because hie but I have spoken agakinst its Policy and( I is lher-e ant: has an opportunity of an-wer- ask the Minister to give consideration to I ug the charg es, but it is bylinmcuis desir- amiending the Act. -3Iembers of iliv court able tliat our civil servants should feel that have mentioned that they funet iont only in ,hcy night be the subject of severe attacks accordance with the Act and if that were in this Chamber and not have an opportunity altered, they could review the position of p)resenlting their case and probably a from a different angle. Since the court ecniplete anser to what has been said. I was created the hotels have been raised to do lnt care wvhether the member for Kal- higher standard. I have had qiuite a lot poorlic is right or wrong-; lie has done of experience in hotels, having travelled a somdiching which is only natural and proper godda.The fact that people have de- jnztice. I haive intervened at this late hour inded better aecommiodation has had chiefly to suggest that it would be a good something to do0 with the imiprovemlent. I[ thming if we had a clearer conception of how have no complaint against the accommoda- matters stand. Year after year we tion. The improvement is probably largely have listened to attacks on members of the due to the introduction of the court. If the icensing Court, who have no means of member for Kalgoorlie comes to my district, replying. They cannot attend at the Bar of he is going to play a lone hand. this House and cannot put forward what Mr. S tya its: I. am not going down there. mnight ble in some instances a1 Mr. NULSEN: I knowv the feeling of the good anlswerl to the attacks made. people and I am very sympathetic towards A prnil is involved in this maitter. The them. I give the lion. member an invitation memilber who malkes charges of this kind to discuss file position with inc at Norseman should followv them up by a demand for a next Saturday' . Then lie will understand proper inquiry', which the people concerned the true psychology Prevailing there. It is .should have ani opportunity to attenid. I my intention to represenit may constituents do not refer to atters of policy, for they and if more than 50 per cent, want some- cal Ii e ventila ted in the House. All ma tters thing. I intend to rio my best to obtain it involving at suggestion of incompletence or for them. I defy the miember for Kal- aibuse of offlce are personal matters affecting goorlie, or any' othler member, to deny' that thle holders of 11w offices. One of two things not less than 8O per cent, of the people at should hap pen. The M1inister in charge Norseman have asked for a second license, should investigate the facts and hecar what to which I consider they are entitled. I is said by those who are attacked, and then cannot support the mieirber for Victoria defend them in the H-ouse. If the House Park. I hope the Mlinister will not be so accepts the )Iiniste-'s reply on behalf of the traditional and orthodox in his views but officers coneerned. that will he an enid of will allow his mental faculties to expand. I the matter. If the House does not accept hope hie will not get into a groove and take the rely. some opportunity should be notice only of what the court tells him. The afforded to the people concerned to present evidence the court has got is only a precis. their view,. Thi~s business has gone on for It does not take complete evidence. If the a long time. With the exception of the nuen1- Minister looked at the evidence avilable, hler for Kalgoorlie. no one has yet spoken [25 Ocrroanat, 1938.]159 15915 for the officers concerned, and they have had tonea Park before the occupants of the no opportunity to deal with the points office have had anl opportunity to be heard. raised. The -Minister himself has not gone The member for Kalgoorlie referred to into the matter. He has very properly de- Press statements, and( attributed something fended the people concerned, as he is head to inc I dlid not -say. What 1 did say was of the department, but has done so only in that iii my opinion the time had arrived to general terms. Apart from what the mem- review thle Licensing Act and that I held ber for Kalgoorlie has said, no opportunity the view that the work could be carried out has been afforded to the members of the by a stipendiary mangistrate without the as- court to present their side of the ease. sistance of a justice of the peace. Any Mr. Raphael : The Bertie Johnston inci- other Press statements printed in juxtaposi- dents will take a lot of exIplaining. tion to my statement have nothing to do with Mr. 'McDOINALD : I am dealing only with me, and I knew nothing about them until I those who, by the passing of thle p)rop)oser] had read them. We might well adopt a motion, will be deprived of their offices. I different method of dealing with this ques- do not intend to support the amendment. tion than we have adopted year after year. for I do not think that is a right way to go It may be extremely lpaiiiful to important about it. The officers concerned were members of the civil service, and may cause them appointed as a result of the p~assinlg of an pain that they- do not deserve. I do Act of Parlianment. That Act we can dleal not propose to support the amendment for with. the reduction of the itemn. I regret that the member for East Perh should have wealkened Mr. Hughes: Then why go through the an;- case hie put forward by referring to Sir farce of passiiig the Estimiates? Walter James and Mr. H. C. F. Keall. Mr. McDONALD: 'Whilst officers fill such Those two members of the profession to offices, certain sumns of mioney must which lie and I belong have been too Ion- lip ------*'.1c knoW11 kitsI Lu Ots zt-MVUebUt ith ainy act Estimates. The way in which memibers of conscious wrong-doing, even though they express their o pin ions concerning the may have comitited some error of jud- Estimates is by moving for slight re- meont, such as any one of us is likely to com- ductions which do not affect the amounts to mit at any time. Ibe paid to the olficers concerned, hut serve Air. Hughes: You think they did not know to mark the disapproval of the Committee what questions to ask? on matters of policy for which the Groverin- Mr. McDONALD: Those gemitlemen should merit or the Minister may be held respon- not have been brought into the matter. sible. I do not think the wiping out of a 'Mr. Hughes: Why not? vote or the making of a substantial redluc- Mir. McDoN_\ALD: It has served no good tion would be in accordance with Englisht puirpose, and it could not be believed thaut constitutional practice as a mneans Of declar- they would be guilt;' of any-, wrong-doing,. I ing that the occupants of a certain office oppose the amendment and ifP it is desired were incompetent and that the office itself to deal with the, Licensing Court, I. hope that should be abolished. will be dlone hr some other means. The Minister for Mines: This is not a Mr. STYANTS: I wish to clear up one matter of policy. but a matter of an Act or two matters. It appears that the mlem- that was passed by Parliament. her for Murchison is under the impression Mr. 3[eDONALD: We should deal not so that I said hie was dishonest. I speak much with the offices held by these people fairly plainly, and I leave it to members As with the question of amending the Act. to say whether I even inferred, let alone To reduce the vote in the way suggested said, that the lion, member was dishonest. would indicate that the Committee accepts The hon. member himself said that had I as proved the statement that the officers been placed in the positions of trust that concerned have dlone somethingv to warrant lie lied held in the community, he the termination of their positions. I am would doubt my hionest;'. That is not prepared to accept the situation in that what hie said ab~out ine. 'He also said way. I do place every reliance upon the that if lie -were in the position of being g-ood faith of those members wxho have able to make something under the lap, spoken, but T am not prepared to agree to such as the position in which members of thle proposal of thle member for Vie- the Licensing Court are placed, he was not [ASSEMBLY.]

too certain hie would not have strayed off Air. SAMPSON : I wish to indicate ray the straight and Harrow path. feeling-s and my impressions, and what I IHon. P. D). Ferguson: 1 would not mind have ascertainedl concerning the work of taking a ticket onl both. thre JLiccrming Court. I do riot know the Mr. STYANTS: The lion, member would members of the Court, and I do not think be right, too. I wvish also to refer to a re- I Inave evir, spokenl to one of them. However, mark made by the member for Kanowna. 1 (10ok-now the condition of Western Austra- I have a distinct recollection that in ans- iair hotels, and amn quite conviticed that strder wer to an interjec-tion in the nature of a the pr'esent systemn of licensing-, our hotels qluestion by thle miember for East Perth, arc rauch better than wvas tile ease before the mnember for Kanownia said, "'They were that systemn ame into force. Mayof our paying ahout £160 ai week in rent for this hotels were models of tire way it) which these particular hotel.' T haive refreshed my esrabl ishmuents should be conduceted, but memior ,y onl the poinit, and calin say there is Iothers again were riot, and the work of the no reference inl thle hon. mlemiber t'a speeh Liccnsimg Court has done a great deal to to any rent being received for any build- put thos.e e-stahishilerits Onl a far better foot- ig except the hotel in quiestion. iu-. Hotels haive been greatly improved in Mr.. Nulsen : I thought it was understood thec bar. ihi tire diniing roomn particularly, that this was cotnnected with tile hotel. rind ini tire santar arrangements, as well as Mfr. STY'ANTS: - sole object in speatk- by the provs ion of running water in the ilug Onl this question was that I might takge roomns and of better linen. Because of those up the cudgels onl behalf of those -who. faets I feel that I could iot conscientiously because of their official p~osition, were not s.upport thle amlenldmlent. able to defend themselves, andi to place the Amendimerit put and negatived. other side of the ease before members. I also mnade it qluite clear that fromn jx- 'Yr. ]1LtAI IES: T rmove-- knowledge of Norseman I would say, off- flint die ii ciii be reduced by £1. hand, that a second license was necessary .\Ir. Raphael : I' called for a division onl because of thle population. But whether a tinv aniendinent. second license is granted or riot, I assure the meiuber for Kanowna, it does not con- The CHIAIRMAN: ]'here was only ono cern rue one iota. If the Norseman people voice. want a second lic-ense, they- enni have it so Animrdinemi (Ali. Hughes') put arid a far as I am concerned. Bitt certainly I dlivisionl takenl with the following result:- shall riot accept the lion. member 's invita- tion to go to Norsemiai to convince the - .. .. 20 people there that a second license is unl- Staijority a necessary. I am riot wedded to the present A VJE. Licensing Court, ur the systern tinder which M~rs. Carleii-Oiiver M r. North M r. Doust Mr. Patrick it has operated for years. If anyone canl SMr. Fergusaon Mr. Seward 31r. Hill ,Nir. Watts show inc sonic systemi that I consider bet- Sir. Hughes Mr. WeisIL ter,' I mighlt be inclined to vote for it, as Mr. Lath aM Mr. Wilmoti Mir. Mlarahall Mir. R1aphael it is desirable to have something that Mr. hicLarty (Taller.) will give more universal satisfaction than NOa. Mr. Cuveriey Mr. Nuisen apparently is the case with the present Mr. Creams INr. i-anton system. Still, it seenis that no matter what 'Mr. Fox Mr. Redoreda Mr. Hawks Atr, Sampisoun board or court or method mnay he adopted Mr. Hegney Nir. F.O.L. S inith Ofi SMr. Lambert 31r. Styants to decide onl the gr-anting licenses, those Mr. Mann M r. Tonkin whose applications fail will impute cor- \Mr. NicDonald Atr. \Vileock Atr. N1Illington Mir. Wise rupt piractices to tile court or board or Mr. Needihain M r. Wiklan person as tire ease wany be. I have cor- ( drier.I PAIRS. rected the misapprehensions iii the minds A rrs. Mr. Dsney Mr. Johnson of certain members. The memiber for Mr. Collier Nanowna was quite fair in his criticism. Mr. Stubbs Mr. Troy He did not impute dishonest mlotivres to t-metmdment thuls negatived. thie court, nor did hie criticise its pcrsonl- Vote put and passed. nel. He did criticise the policy, whlich lie wns perfectly entitled to do. Jlovrsqe tndjounried at .11 arm. (11Vednesday).