FRANCIS DRAKE WILLMOTT

!nterviewed by John Ferrell (10 tapes) and Del Willmott (3 tapes)

Introduction

This collection of memories is the result of a series of interviews with my father. The first two of these (Bridgetown and Political Memories) were carried out by me in 1988 and a third (Hale School) in 1992: Unfortunately work pressures and other matters intervened and I did not carry on with this project and the matter rested until my daughters, Deidre and Helen, decided in 2001 that they would engage a professional interviewer to talk to Frank who was by then aged 97 but still quite alert mentally. These interviews consisted of one hour of discussion each week and were conducted by John Ferrell who previously had interviewed a number of former Federal MPs. When completed Helen and I transcribed these interviews. As I did the transcription work I realised that it was a great pity that I had not carried on in 1988 as Frank's memories were much less clear by 2001. I also felt that my previous feeling that it was better for these interviews to be carried out by a non-family member without one ofus present was wrong. I found myself continuously wishing that John would ask "the next question" which I knew would have revealed a lot more information because I already knew at least part of the answer. As a result of this I felt that in addition to an accurate transcription of Frank's words for future reference it would be interesting if I provided an edited version to which was added my own knowledge and memories because, of course, our memories overlap to quite a considerable extent. Unfortunately, some of Frank's recollections are confused and I have provided quite extensive notes where I feel they can add to the accuracy or content of the narrative. I have also tried to give some of the historical background to some of the events covered.

It should be remembered that in addition to his advanced age Frank also had serious hearing problems throughout the interviews which meant that often he was concentrating on hearing the questions rather than what he was saying.

John Ferrell showed remarkable patience and understanding to get as much information as he did.

Finally, I should mention that the original interviews and my editing and notes were done for future use by family members rather than historians.

:1'

RECOLLECTIONS OF BRIDGETOWN

This tape which is being made in late 1988 is a record ofa discussion between my father, Frank Willmott and myself, Del Willmott. It is an attempt to record some ofFrank's and to some extent my own memories ofthe Western Australia that we grew up in and ofthe people we knew, particularly the people that Dad knew. Bearing in mind that his life has covered over half the time that European settlers have been in Western Australia and his family includes some of the earliest settlers in Wes tern Australia th ere should be some interesting reflections on the growth ofthis countly up until this year of1988, which, coincidentally is the Bi-Centena,y ofEuropean settlement in Australia.

Frank was born atNannup on 23 rd January 1904. The family moved to "Applewood" later in 1904 with the children being Francis Drake (Frank), his older sister Catherine Josephine (Kitty), who later married Evelyn Hester, and his older brother Percival Edmund Sykes (Sykes). Two additional children were born in Bridgetown. Henry Joseph (Joe) and Del. The latter died of whooping cough aged two months. Frank's father Francis Edward Sykes Willmott ( also Frank), was born in Kirkley, Suffolk in 1870 and came to WA with his older brother Percy in 1887. Their father theRevHenryWillmottMA (Oxon), who was the Rector of Kirkley, died young leaving the family in somewhat difficult financial circumstances. Frank (snr) and Percy subsequently married the two eldest daughters of Edward Brockman of"The Warren" near present day Pemberton. Both Edward Brockman and his wife Capel (nee Bussell) were born in WA. Both families had arrived in WA in early 1830. When the family arrived in Bridgetown Frank senior was employed as a Forest Ranger by the WA Government and continued in this position until he entered State Parliament as the member for Nelson in 1914. He also developed and extended the apple and pear orchards at "Applewood" at the same time although it appears that his wife Frances Edith (Edith), who was a very capable and hard working woman, did much of the day to day management of the farm. Frank senior was one of the first group of members of the newly formed Country Party to be elected to the Legislative Assembly of the Western Australian Parliament and shortly after his election became the leader of the Party. · He served as minister in the Lefroy, Colebatch and Mitchell governments before losing his seat at the 1921 general election. He then served as an MLC for Southwest Province from 1921 to 1925 when he lost that seat also. The Country Party, now the National Party, was never able to consolidate itself in this area and was not represented again until the sixties and seventies when it again briefly held seats there. Frank senior died in 1941 and was buried in Bridgetown. His wife died in 1946 and was also buried in Bridgetown.

Frank.junior went to primary school in Bridgetown and then attended High School (now Hale School) in Perth from 1919 to 1921. He farmed, first in partnership with his brother Joe at "Applewood", and later moving to the nearby old Doustproperty at "Geegeelup". He retained pait of"Applewood" when the partnership was split in 1945. He entered the Legislative Council as a Liberal member for his father's old seat of Southwest Province in 1955 and served until 1974. Apart from his original election, which he won easily, he was never opposed in 19 years. He moved to Nedlands in 1968 and was still living in his home at 72 Mountjoy Road when this interview was recorded in 1988. His wife, my mother, had died suddenly in England in 1970. He finally moved out of his N edlands home in 1998 when he entered Sandstrom Nursing Home in Mount Lawley where he died on 4th August, 2004 aged 100 years and six months)

I was born in Bridgetown in 1936 while the family was still living at "Applewood". I started school in mid 1942 at a tiny school located on the old Hester property at "Dalgarup". I imagine the main reason for that was the Second World War, which was at its most menacing at about the time I started school. My parents probably felt that it was safer than being in Bridgetown if bombing occurred and of course my aunt (Dad's sister, Mrs Evelyn Hester) lived nearby in the event of a sudden emergency. In any event I used to walk across the paddocks at "Applewood" to Trot's Cottage at the foot ofTrot's Hill where Mrs Jones, the teacher, lived. Margaret Scriven and I as well as Mrs Jones' daughter, Jennifer, would then be driven to School in Mrs Jones' Vauxhall car which was notoriously unreliable, especially on cold winter mornings when it would refuse to start. I remember setting out up the hill from our home on "Applewood" being followed by curious cattle. On cold mornings they would breathe large clouds of steam hard on my heels. A very small, not overconfident, boy aged just six, I did not look behind for fear that might excite even more interest. Sometimes the ice on the grass would crackle under my feet which probably had no more than sandals on as my parents believed that it was better to have cold feet than wet shoes all day. In warm weather we wore sandals or went barefooted. At the top of the hill I climbed through a fence into a paddock known as the "Hundred Acres". At that time it had not been cleared for many years and during the depression and war it had become infested with rabbits and Bracken fem. There were also large numbers of dead ringbarked trees still standing and a good deal of fallen debris. It was into this tangle of bracken and rabbit burrows that I now plunged weaving among the fem patches some of which were close to six feet high. Of course my father had accompanied me the first few times but after that I found my own way. I don't remember being frightened but looking back it would have been easy to get badly lost in these thickets which continued out of sight of the houses for about half a mile until I emerged on the main Bridgetown-Perth road opposite Trot's Cottage about 2 miles north of Bridgetown. The little school closed at the end of 1943 and I moved to the main Bridgetown State School at the commencement of the 1944 school year. This entailed a walk of some 2 miles along roads in the opposite direction to my former route. The war had by this time moved further away and the immediate danger to Australia had been removed.

Transcription This tape which is being made in late 1988 is a record of a discussion between my father, Frank Willmott and me, Del Willmott. It is an attempt to record some of Frank's and to some extent my own memories of the W estem Australia that we grew up in and of the people we knew, particularly the people that Dad knew. Bearing in mind that his life has covered over half the time that European settlers have been in Western Australia and his family includes some of the earliest settlers in Western Australia there should be some interesting reflections on the growth of this country up until this year of 1988, which, coincidentally is the Bi-centenary of Australia.

DW Dad, you grew up in Bridgetown. It was obviously a very small town when you first remember it and yet in some ways it was probably more like the town that I remember also as a child in the mid forties than the town that we both know today. Would you like to tell us a bit about what you remember of Bridgetown back before the First World War.

My earliest memories of Bridgetown before the First World War. Bridgetown was a pretty busy sort of a place as towns in Western Australia went in those days but up to the time you would remember it had changed quite considerably. For instance the Bridgetownt Hotel that you would remember wasn't the original. I had the pulling down of the remains of the original hotel in 1929, I think it was. That was well below ground. The level of the street was half way up the high windows in the original building because the street had been built up. That happened partly, I think, because of a kid being killed on a baker's cart. It tipped over on the street because it was on such a slope. The town itself extended further out towards Perth where Patersons big shed is now- on that side of the road­ there were houses along there right do,m in the gully some people by the name of Gallies (sp?) lived there.

Yes there were still a few houses I think when I first remember it out there

On the opposite side of the road there were no houses near the road itself - they were all set back. You remember old Mrs Stanley's house? And then next to that there was old Bill Walker. He had a place there I don't know what the acreage would be but there would be two or three acres in his block and his house was back up on Hester St. There was nothing along the street there until you got down just next door to the hotel block which was Rankin's Plumber's Shop which later became Rowe and Zinnecker's first building on that side before they went to the other side of the road. And those houses, old Clocky had a place just before the Gallies with an old building which had the tmm clock in it. That was shifted up, afterwards, it was on Lot 40 where the hotel is. About where the Ampol Service Station is now. A little wooden building right on the street - old Clocky occupied that for years

So who was Clocky? He was a old watchmaker, stone deaf. You had to communicate by writing-you couldn't make him hear anything. What was his name- Spencer Travis. He was quite an identity about the place. Everybody knew old Clocky. He had a habit of going into the pub late in the afternoon for his pot of beer or couple of pots of beer and he always carried a walking stick. If he noticed anybody with a pot of beer and not paying attention he'd snare it with his walking stick and pull it down in front of himself and scoff it. Ha ha

Times haven't changed all that much in some ways. Of course you remember Bridgetown before the blackberries took it over. My earliest memories of Bridgetown are in the mid forties. It was threatened with being engulfed by blackberries and as you mentioned along the brook there where the houses were on the bottom side- that have been gone by the time I can first remember although I have difficulty in remembering it even as it was then. Just great heaps and mountains of blackberries and I suppose when you first remember it the creeks were still fairly much in their original state.

No they weren't. The blackberries had started when I started at the State School in Bridgetown in 1912. We used to eat blackberries on the way home from school.

And get into trouble with your father?

And get into trouble with my father for eating blackberries! But they hadn't grown into big bushes. They evidently hadn't been there very long because they were just in the sides of the creek itself. I don't remember any great big high bushes like they became afterwards.

A terrible scourge. The school of course when you first went there was not where it is now. It was in Steere Street.

It was adjacent to the Town Hall- it afterwards became the Lands Dept. It was the original State School in Bridgetown

What's there now? Is that building still there?

No, no it's been demolished. It's been taken over by, I suppose, by Telecom now. I'm not quite sure.

Of course that additional hall that's been built there since I left Bridgetown extends out that way. The old building still bore the obvious marks of a school throughout the time that the Registrar and those people were in there when it was government offices. It still obviously had been a school

When I first remember, it was one long building. It had partitions that rolled down - not walls - that rolled down between the various classes.

Goodness me. That's what they've gone back to in recent years; that sort of classroom. What were those ... canvas partitions?

No, they were more like wooden slats.

Almost like a roller door?

Yes. Something of the sort. I don't really remember. I didn't take that much notice of what they were.

Who were some of the people that you remember going to school with? How many children were there at the State School then?

I don't remember how many there were. There wouldn't be a great many but I remember Harold Armstrong and Did and his two sisters, Myrtle and Hazel. They were there and Syd Wheatley, Stan Wheatley and the Butchers. They were the Butchers that afterwards went to Busselton?

Yes. They were quite identities in Busselton. The oldest boys, Jim and Bob were there when I first remember them but I don't really ...

You were at school, weren't you, with one of Bridgetown's best known, not sons, but best known people who have gone through Bridgetown, Nugget Coombs. Wasn't he at school when you were there?

Oh yes. Nugget Coombs, pimply faced little fellow that he was. He never... you wouldn't have picked him for what he became, in those days, when he was a kid. He was the station master's son. They moved to Busselton afterwards and I sort of lost touch with them a bit but I used to see him occasionally when I was in Busselton. He evidently went on. I lost touch with him completely then but I always remembered him.

Going through the town ... there obviously was in those days a range of industries that you don't have to the same extent today... people like blacksmiths, wheelwrights, harness makers and those sorts of people? What do you remember about them?

Oh, the blacksmith was where Ewing's office is now... the lawyer's office. That was the original blacksmith's shop and they used to shoe the horses on the footpath. You remember the blacksmith's shop was that still in existence right down on the creek when you remember? (Percy Ewing, the lawyer Frank refers to, had been dead for many years when Frank was being interviewed although his offices continued to be used by the town lawyerfor many years. These offices and the ones Frank and I now talk about lay on the west side ofHampton Street.-DW)

No it was on the other side of the road when I first remember. It was the only one I remember.

The original blacksmith's shop that I remember was right on the road and then Ewing must have bought that block or something happened because they moved the blacksmith back and Ewing built his building there and the blacksmith's shop moved right down on to the creek.

There was a story on the radio a few weeks ago about the mysterious horseshoes all down that creek and I know at the time I thought they won't have to look very far to find out where they came from. I'd always known that there had been blacksmith's shops on that side of the road. What were the names of those blacksmiths?

... and then Osterberry and then old Roland Fimister.

And then Fimister went in with Wilkinson did he? Was he old Bert Wilkinson's first partner?

No, no. I think after Fimister left was when Wilkinson and Armstrong joined forces. They'd both worked for Fimister.

I remember old Bert Wilkie quite well of course, he was, for many years, still shoeing horses, I can remember him shoeing horses in his later days.

There were three blacksmiths that I remember then because there was another one; Moriarty's down opposite the Church of England.

What, on the "Keyla" side? (I am unsure ofthe correct spelling ofthe name ofthe Allnuttproperty-DW)

Yes, on the "Keyla" side opposite the Church really.

Where Henrys' house used to be, somewhere there, was it? You remember where Henrys were on the opposite comer to "Keyla"? It was further down than that a bit I think. That brick house, you mean? That's still there. It was just past that that Moriarty's blacksmith shop was.

Were there separate places doing wheel-wrighting and harness work and that sort of thing?

Harness work was the saddlers.

So there were saddlers in Bridgetown?

Oh yes. Old George Stevens had a saddler's shop. Just along side where the old National Bank building is. There was a saddler's shop there. The original lawyers shop - Stanley and Money and Walker - was alongside that.

Right.

Before Ewing built his establishment.

Of course in those days I suppose the main industry in Bridgetown would have been the timber, would it? It would have been bigger than the fruit industry at that time wouldn't: it? Before the first world war.

Oh yes. It was very big. It was a very lively place, Bridgetown in those days with the sleeper cutters and carters. Employed a lot oflabour.

Of course all the sleepers were hand hewn then weren't they by axe and adze?

Oh yes. And they all had to be inspected and turned. Every sleeper had to be turned. Up in the railway yards before it was loaded, inspected and the inspectors brand put on it.

Where were those sleepers going to do you know?

Oh, mainly South Africa I think but all over the world.

I've heard that a lot of the London Underground was laid on West Australianjarrah sleepers. Was that right?

Oh I think it probably was. Oh yes, they exported sleepers all over the place. It was a big industry. Terrible waste of timber in many ways. In hewing days, you know, you had to have easy splitting trees and that sort of thing ... all cut out with the broad axe. They left an awful lot of timber lying on the ground that ...

I can remember as a child going through the bush at Applewood and places like that. .. and seeing the. butt ends of the trees that had been left Obviously there were huge quantities of what today would be considered good millable timber that was just left because they couldn't readily get it out with the axe and wedges. I suppose there were bullock teams. What were the sleepers mostly shifted with? Were they shifted with horses or bullocks?

They were all shifted with horses. I don't remember any bullock teams. There might have been a few but I don't remember seeing them shifting sleepers - they were horse teams. A lot of them just single horse drays. One horse and a dray.

The cutters would have someone carting for them would they?

Yes there were sleeper cutters and carters. There were carters too. Fellows who just made their living carting sleepers. On a dray. Must have been some job in the winter time?

Ohhh ... the roads were terrific because with a sleeper dray there's no brake. You can't put a brake on a thing where the weight comes all on the horse's back so they had to britch them. The horse had to britch the load down the hills and they'd run one of the wheels in the gutter all the time.

What does britching the load mean?

The horse holding it back on a britching. And they'd run one wheel in the gutter to make it easier for the horse. So there would be an absolute bog hole and that would gradually come out into the road, or what you'd call the road!

A dray is a big cart isn't it? A two wheeled vehicle?

Yes. No springs. An unsprung dray, a two wheeled vehicle.

A cart with very big wheels, iron tyres like a cart. Later, for lighter work they had spring carts didn't they?

The sleeper dray was just very simple. There wasn't much of a box - just a flat top to slip the sleepers on. They didn't carry very many sleepers.

Of course a sleeper, anybody who's never lifted sleepers would have no real feeling for just how heavy they are. They're an enormously heavy thing, particularly the sleepers that they were doing for say, the Indian Railways. They were long sleepers for their wide gauge railway

A nine foot sleeper takes you all your time to up-end ... when it is green

When it's green of course, with the sap in it. I've loaded sleepers too and they are enormously heavy. When I say I've loaded them ... one sleeper... one job as far as I was concerned. They were too heavy for me. They were heavy things.

Yes they didn't take many to make a load for a horse.

Then of course that was also the time when the fruit industry was in its infancy. I have that Orchard Cup which your father won for his orchard in Bridgetown. Obviously that's the time when the orchard industry was just getting going. Do you know what the origins of the orchard industry in Bridgetown were? How did it start? Why did they think it would be a good place for fruit?

I don't know. I suppose it just turned out to be. One of the earliest orchards was, of course, "Keyla". Old Cocky Allnutt.

Yes, Allnutt is generally given the credit for starting the fruit industry in Bridgetown.

I think he probably did. It was quite an extensive and old orchard when I remember it and you know, most of the other orchards round the place were fairly new. In fact they were being planted all the time when I was a kid.

Having the credit for the orchard he also has to have the discredit for the blackberries. I think he also introduced them too, didn't he?

And a lot of other weeds too, I think.

I guess you can't be right all the time but certainly the blackberries were a terrible scourge. What do you remember - getting back to the town itself- what other businesses there were in town and who ran them. How many pubs were there then? Bridgetown to me was always a place with more pubs than people. Four.

I think that was the same when I was a boy.

Yes, I'd say the same four pubs were in existence when you were a boy.

When did hotels close in those days?

Nine o'clock I think. Nine till nine they used to be, I think, in those days.

That's funny because there was an article in the paper the other day remembering this that and the other about the fifties and they talked about six o'clock closing. That was rubbish. I don't think we ever had six o'clock closing in Western Australia did we? We certainly never did in my memory.

No.No.

Obviously whoever it was, was revealing his Eastern States origins because he was talking about six o'clock closing.

No I don't ever remember any six o'clock closing here. It wouldn't be fair either dash it all. People worked till five o'clock. They walked in from work or rode a horse if they were further out and the pubs would all be closed by the time they got into town.

Of course those were the days when the sleeper cutters, not so much the shearers in that country, but people like the sleeper cutters and perhaps the fruit industry workers used to cut out a job and then go to town and drink the lot.

That would apply to the sleeper cutters mainly. The timber workers were notorious drinkers.

Yes, I've heard that. In fact I can remember one or two of them who were old men when I first remember them and they were still pretty good goers. Like old Dave White.

It used to be a great thing in the early days of the mills south of Bridgetown when the mill workers would be taken to Perth by special train from the mills and they'd pull into a station like Bridgetown and when they left the whole of the railway tracks would be littered with bottles. They'd throw them out of the windows- there'd be hundreds of bottles thrown out of the windows. They did nothing but drink from Manjimup to Perth.

You don't remember when the railways came to Bridgetown do you?

No it was before my memory.

Did it go beyond Bridgetown in your memory?

I remember when the line went on over the Blackwood and on to Manjimup. I can remember going down and watching the pile drivers driving the piles for the bridge. It was the first railway bridge over the Blackwood.

Of course, to digress for a moment. This isn't really what we were going to talk about today but it's been in the news lately. You remember it.. .I think your father was actually on the train that overturned with the Prince of Wales on. In 1928 was it?

No before then. 1920. Must have been 1920.

That was just south of Bridgetown somewhere was it? Yes, on the wet country, south of Bridgetown. What happened was that the weight of the train that they had spread the lines.

It was a much heavier train than the normal ones?

Yes. Much heavier than the normal thing and over she went.

Your father was on that train, wasn't he?

Yes, he was on the train.

I presume he wasn't in one of the carriages that went over?

I don't remember. No, I don't think he was butl wouldn't know.

Was he still in parliament when that happened?

Yes.

We'll talk about him at some other time- and some of the political people that you remember and that smi of thing. Just for today I thought we would talk about Bridgetown when you first remember it. You weren't born in Bridgetown were you?

No,Iwas borninNannup.

At a hospital there?

No, at "Majenup". I don't think there was a hospital there. The hospital in Bridgetown wasn't very much. (Majenup was the home ofFrank's uncle Vernon Broclanan who later became the member for Sussex in the Legislative Assembly and was succeeded in that role by Frank's cousin, Hen,y Wilbnott-D Ff?

So you were born there. Auntie Kitty was born where? Oh, I know where she was born. She was born in a house in Perth. I had to research that at one stage. Down opposite where the State Housing Commission is now, that house was. Funnily enough when I did that little bit of research the house was still standing but within a few months it was demolished. (It was near the n01th-west corner ofthe intersection ofHay and Plain Streets.-DW)

In Havelock Street?

No, she was born in East Perth.

Oh yes.

I think it must have been a doctor's house.

Oh yes, I know where you mean.

The house was fairly derelict. It obviously had been quite a nice house. It was still there when I did that bit ofresearch. About when she died. About 1980, I suppose. But it has gone now. We seem to be wandering round a bit. We've gone from Manjimup to East Perth and what have you. We'll just try, I think, to get back to Bridgetown again and talk a bit more about that. I'd like at some stage probably to talk about your memories of what it was like then during the First World War but again I think we'll leave that for another time. You remember, I suppose, the first car coming to Bridgetown? That would have been before the First World War, wouldn't it? Oh yes. The first car I remember, I think it was the first car in Bridgetown, was Paul Bailey's. He married a Doust.

That was Bailey's Furs, wasn't it?

Not in those days. It was the same Bailey that had the tannery afterwards. But he ran Walter & Co's Store where Stan Doust is now. (McCay's-DW) That was Walter & Co and Paul Bailey managed that. He lived down at "Bella Vista". He had the f'rrst car I remember coming to Bridgetown, a Darroch.

What was that? A French car?

I don't know. Anyway, I went for ride in it and I remember being as scared as hell because it seemed to bump. You know, you hit a bump and it was like riding in a dray as far as I remember. It finally burnt anyway. It fmally got burnt.

How did it get burnt?

Oh, it caught fire. It was rather the failing of those early cars.

I suppose they would just overheat and eventually the woodwork or something would start to bum. I suppose, too, they had the same problem that vehicles still have in bush areas. And that is getting leaves and things up into the exhaust system.

Oh yes, but probably it was backfiring too. You'd get a backfire in those old cars; I've seen it happen to the T model Fords. Light the ground underneath the car. But the next car I can remember was, I think an me, a Motor Buggy they called it, a high wheeled thing.

Yes, I've seen pictures of those, the International Motor Buggy.

It didn't have ordinary wheels and tyres like a car. It had like rubber tyred buggy wheels on it.

Hard wheels was it? Non pneumatic?

Yes. Chain driven as far as I can remember. Terrible thing, you know. I think it was a single cylinder motor or something of the sort. You'd see it trying to struggle along. A real menace it seemed to me to be on the road.

Who owned that?

It was owned by a fellow who brought the tree pullers to Bridgetown in about 1910 or 11. I can't remember his name. Yes, that was the steam tree pullers. They had their workshop, they were built in Bridgetown.

The tree pullers themselves were built in Bridgetown?

Yes, assembled there. Yes they had a big workshop where the tennis courts are today. The steam tree pullers were assembled there.

They were English made weren't they. Fowlers or that sort of thing.

Yes.

Were they owned by private contractors or the Government? No, They were Government owned. You hired them. Quite a lot of the original tree pulling on "Applewood" was done by the tree pullers. It was one of the first places that had the tree puller working. I can remember when the demonstration was given by the showground the first day it was ever taken out to work.

The first time in Bridgetown?

Yes.

Prior to that all the country was cleared by ring barking wasn't it. Of course, it was cleared after that by ring barking too.

Oh yes. The country at "Applewood" was mostly ring barked but you know just ring barked standing timber and that was all pulled by the tree puller. It didn't pull green trees.

Oh, didn't it? I thought it pulled green trees.

Oh no. Ring barked stuff.

Oh, I see to open the paddocks up for hay and that sort of thing.

Yes. They weren't arable before. They were just ring barked. The trees were standing there but they were dead.

Oh, I didn't realise that. I'd always thought they pulled green timber. So they pulled rung timber one tree at a time. Did it stand at a central point in a paddock. .. ?

Yes they'd back up against a solid stump or something to stop them from pulling themselves back on the wire. You see it was pulled by a rope on a drum. A steam drum.

And they'd anchor it to a stump and then get into it from there?

Yes.

And would they have to use a ladder or something to get the rope up the trees?

No. They had a man. You mentioned Bert Wilkinson a while ago, the blacksmith, one of his brothers, Len, became a real expert thrower of the lead. They'd throw a lead over a high limb. He became a real expert at it and he did all that throwing and then they'd heave the wire rope up. Sling a light line with the lead over a high limb then heave the rope up.

The rope would be pulled manually, would it? From the tree puller, after it had finished pulling a tree if it was going to the next tree, they'd pull the rope back by hand would they or did they use a horse to do that?

No. I think it was pulled by hand, I don't remember any horse.

Yes. Well, I've worked with wire ropes too. I don't know if anybody who hasn't worked with wire ropes would know just how hard and heavy that work would be pulling back a wire rope.

Especially when the rope got a bit old and there were spikes sticking out of it.

Yes, that would have been very hard work. That's it isn't it. Life in those days, and work on the farms was all done the hard way. It wasn't much in the way of mechanical aids.

No, there were no mechanical aids. Goodness, no. And the roads in Bridgetown then? I suppose there was a Roads Board by then was there?

Oh yes. It wasn't the Bridgetown Roads Board of course. It was the Nelson Roads Board. It took in the whole of the Warren too.

We were talking about cars a minute ago. Your father had one of the fairly early cars in Bridgetown didn't he?

T-model Ford yes. Before that there were no cars the Darroch and the other thing that I spoke about, they were just pretence sort of things. The first viable cars that you could travel about in, really travel anywhere, were the T-model Fords. The first cars I remember were three T-model Fords. Old Parson Davis had one, a 1910 model. My father and Dr. Dean had the other two. They were 1911 models.

Is that picture that I've got... that would be a later model wouldn't it? The picture of the cars on the Karridale road. Your father was driving a T-model Ford in that picture but that would be a later one.

A little single seater. That was about a 1914 or 1915 model. He bought it secondhand. That had belonged to Dr. Gillespie and he'd been right up to "Hillside" in the Pilbara in that.

Really. I didn't know that.

It was a bit of a wreck when it came back and my father bought it. He had it reconditioned. It turned out to be marvellous little car. Best hill climbing car I ever knew.

Yes they were certainly marvellous vehicles. Suddenly, you were able to move around without being dependent on the railway because before that the whole opening up of the country was dependent on the railways, wasn't it?

The cars before that you'd never think of going to Perth in. In 1913 I think it was I went to Perth with my father and mother in a T model Ford. Not much of a road you know. It was just two wheel tracks through the bush.

How long did that take?

We did it in a day. Left early in the morning and got into Perth just in the dusk. Took about 12 hours, I suppose.

And I suppose there were no sealed roads in those days?

Sealed roads! There weren't even made roads. They weren't graded roads, they were just tracks.

Even in the town I don't suppose they were much better.

No.

Coming into Bridgetown in those days I suppose the main thing would be all the horses tied up outside the hotels. Even when I first remember it in the forties, because of the war, there were still the troughs and hitching rails and that sort of thing outside the hotels and there were quite often horses there. I guess going back to when you remember there would have been horses everywhere.

And bullock teams sprawled out in the street.

Yes I suppose they lie down in the street when they're not moving do they?

Yes, they'd lie down. You'd see a bullock team lying down in the street hitched to a wagon. And what other kind of businesses were there there - feed, produce, those kinds ofbusinesses? Chidgzey's; did that go that far back?

No, Chidgzey's didn't start until after the war.

You mentioned Walter & Co Was that the Walters from "The Peninsular"?

Yes, JR Walter from "The Peninsular'' was Walter & Co. Yes they were general merchants and feed and produce merchants. They were a pretty big sort of an outfit.

Did they start "The Peninsular"? They built "The Peninsular" did they?

Yes, I think so, as far as I know they started it.

Of course, the funny thing about "The Peninsular" always was that the peninsular itself wasn't where "The Peninsular" homestead was, where the main activities of the Walter family were. The peninsular itself was across the river, wasn't it? It was always really something of a back block of the farm. Which of the many bridges over the Blackwood was the one that you first remember?

The one that went on the east side of John Blechynden's place (Bridgedale-DW)

The one that was still there derelict when I was a boy?

Yes. It had a very steep hill down on to a narrow bridge. There had been a bridge before that. You could see the remains of it down by "Ford House". That was built where the original ford was ... that's how Ford House got its name, I suppose, because there was a ford over the river there.

Who lived at Ford House in those days?

I don't remember who lived there before Fred Brockman (Drake-Brockman). When I was a boy going to school Fred Brockman lived there. He was Surveyor General afterwards. That used to be the last staging post in those days for surveyors in those days before becoming Surveyor General.

Now his wife was Grace Bussell wasn't she?

Yes.

She was the Grace Bussell that rescued all the people off the ship? Off the "Georgette"?

Yes. Yes. I remember them quite well.

When you said that Bridgetown was part of Nelson Roads Board... was Bridgetown the centre of Nelson Roads Board? Was that where it was based?

Yes. They'd ride in from Warren as they called it then. Manjimup didn't really exist much. I don't remember just exactly when it became Bridgetown Roads Board. I think about 1914.

Yes, it was a time of tremendous change wasn't it that period from 1890 to the First World War. From when Western Australia got self government up until the war.

Oh yes.

Things were changing very, very quickly. There were a lot of people arriving. Manjimup in those days was really centred on Balbarrup wasn't it? Yes, Balbarrup existed well before Manjimup. When I first remember Manjimup there was nothing there except a little tin "hotel", they called it, and a forestry place, a tin hut with a forestry officer in it.

Oh well, I think that might do us for one day.

Dad I though today we could expand a bit more on Bridgetown itself and just sort of try and talk about the various shops and people that lived in Bridgetown when you first remember it. That would be just before the First World War. Perhaps if you could start from somewhere round near where the old Pound used to be. That was still there when I first remember. About where the Peninsular Road enters the main road from Perth. What do you remember about that?

Yes, the Pound was right opposite. The next place was a small building that I remember there - an old fellow by the name of Davidson owned it. "Orchard expert" he called himself. It was the only house on that side of the bridge over Geegeelup Brook.

Was that on the same side as the Pound or the other side?

The same side as the Pound. There was nothing the other side. There were no houses the other side. The big workshop for the steam tree-pullers was opposite. Where the tennis courts are today; that was the workshop for building the big tree-pullers.

They actually used to assemble them there did they?

Yes. They were assembled there.

We'll talk more about that some other time. So there was a house on the other side of the road was there? That area afterwards became completely overgrown by blackberries and was a total mess when I first remember it.

The place that Davidson had ... Paul Bailey started his f"rrst tannery in that a bit later. Then later on another house was built there by old Tommy Newport who worked at "Applewood". That's where they lived. There's always been one house there, until more recent years, before the bridge.

In those days, even when I first remember it, there was a proper bridge there. These days there are just pipes under the road. In those days there was a proper bridge.

Well, the other side of that, where Patersons is now was just a field I used to stable my horse in a stable alongside the railway line there. Frank Doust lived there, "Ivy Cottage", he was back from the road a bit, between the road and the railway line. Of course there's been a lot of earthworks done there for Patersons it's all been built up and messed about It wouldn't look at all the same . It was just a little field there.

Who was Frank Doust?

He was one of the "Geegeelup" Dousts, one of the younger ones. He worked in Forestry with my father. He worked under my father when I first remember him. The next place along was old Clocky's. The original Clocky's. A little building beside the road where the old deaf watch maker was, he was stone deaf.

Yes, you told me about him last time.

Yes, that was his original place and alongside that between that and the creek, that still exists there, was Gallies', an old brick house, it's all grown up with the watsonia now. What is there. Oh. I don't know, There's some sort of building there. · Is this on the same side as Patersons? (The east side ofHampton Street-DW)

Yes going down that side.

Is that where the old Caltex fuel depot used to be? I'm not too sure what's there myself now.

Yes. A bit further along there, that's about where Clocky's was and a bit further along nearer the creek was Gallies and the other side of the creek, from my earliest remembrance of it... .I think the first place the other side was the place that Eider's moved into eventually. It was Brown's butcher shop when I first remember it. The original place that Elders started in there. Zinnecker's garage wasn't there. There was nothing there that I can remember. Then the courthouse, the old courthouse.

That afterwards became the Repertory Theatre didn't it

No it's the Ag Dept.

Yes , that's right but it was the Repertory theatre at one stage when I first remember it.

Yes it was and then of course the Police Station, the two Police buildings and a lock-up, then the Post Office.

The Post Office was there even then was it?

Yes. The Post-master's residence was along side it. I don't know if the Postmaster still resides alongside the Post Office.

I'm not too sure either. That's how I first remember it, too.

Anyway that's where he was. The first Postmaster I remember clearly was Urquart.

What Urquart was that. Was that Bob Urquart's family?

No, Bill. Remember Bill Urquart? Well he and his brother Don and sister Maisie, they were his children.

He was the Postmaster?

Yes. Mrs Urquart was one of the Cross's from Busselton.

Just getting back to the Police for a moment before we leave them. I suppose in those days they were always mounted?

No. One mounted and one not mounted. They always had a sergeant and a mounted trooper. As far back as I can remember that was on. Then adjoining Urquart's house was the old Mechanics Institute, the forerunner of the Town Hall. An old wooden building; it was there for years. Then across the road was the Freemasons Hotel of course.

That wasn't the present building, presumably?

Yes.

The same building?

Yes. Oh, I didn't realise that.

Yes, it's been renovated and altered a bit but that's the same building.

So, who owned that in those days?

I don't know who the owner was but the licencee was Bob Crawford. "Roaring Bob" Crawford.

I'm sure you can tell some tales about that at some time too.

Yes, he had a water trough outside on Hampton Street. Written in front of it, "Bob Crawford shouts your horse a drink." All the horses used to water there. Then, as far as I can remember the next place, I think, must have been Tomelty's Newsagency Store. That would be about where Goldsboroughs had their first shop.

What was afterwards Wauchop's Newsagency was it?

Yes. Tomeltys had a big store there. As far as I can remember adjoining them was the original WA Bank. It was housed in an old house set back from the road a bit.

Tomeltys lived there did they, at the store?

Yes, behind the store. Most people lived near their store in those days.

The Agricultural Bank was afterwards absorbed by the R&I wasn't it?

No. The WA Bank was absorbed by the Bank ofNew South Wales. Then,I think the Commercial Bank was the next building. Wait a minute there was another house there before the Commercial Bank. I don'tknow... various businesses started there. I can't remember much about that, but then there was the Commercial Bank and then as far as I can remember there was a bit of a vacant block there and then the chemist's shop. Francis H Hick had a chemist's shop, it's still there today.

What was afterwards Nelson's?

Yes.

The Bank ofNew South Wales was built afterwards on what you're calling the vacant block?

Yes, that's right it was. Because it's the opposite side from what it used to be. The Bank of New South Wales is the opposite side of the Commercial Bank from what it used to be.

That Commercial Bank building is still there but I'm not sure what it is myself at the moment but that building that was the Commercial Bank was there pre World War One?

Yes and the manager lived at the back of that; their housing was at the back of that. Hicks had his house along side the shop. There was the house that they lived in.

We have a bit of a problem of course. I haven't lived in Bridgetown myself for nearly twenty years and I have difficulty in knowing what's there now in 1988. I can remember what was there in 1968.

Then, I think the next place was Mrs Tozer's. She had a little drapery store there and they lived at the back of the shop. And after that I think it was all vacant land opposite the railway station until you got to Paul Berthold's newagency which is just before Dorsett Motors but that was vacant then too. Is that where the dentist was years afterwards?

No. The dentist was in Dorsett Motors building. A dentist built that.

Stevenson was the dentist when I first remember.

SIDE2

Question not recorded.

Yes I remember the tyre place there. I can't quite remember what that was earlier on in my childhood, yes I know where you mean. That was Paul Berthold's newsagency shop. Then the next place was the Masonic Lodge All that other building (later) Dorsett Motors ... the blacksmith's shop up the back... that wasn't there. That was built after it was just. .. it was just a hill that was gouged out when they built the place and after that, after the Masonic Lodge, I can't remember a thing there before Scott's hotel. I think the land belonged to Scott's Hotel. Yes it did. And then over the road from Scott's Hotel was ... Dousts originally had a little shop there; yes I remember Aubrey running it, the youngest son of"Geegeelup" mob. And back from the road, set back a bit was the soda factory, old Fred McAlinden's soda factory.

That was still there in some shape or form even when I was a kid. (I think it was Robbies Aerated Waters in my childhood-DW)

That's right.

The old ... what you 're talking about where Dousts had a shop, was that the old building that was part of Armstrong and Wilkinson's when they moved in there?

Yes their office was part of the old building. The old house was still there. Mrs Doust and her younger daughter Helen lived in it for years after. After that there was a house there ... Oh! Wait a minute that was where Mrs McAlinden had her maternity building. She had a maternity hospital there. Mrs "Dogchain" what was his name, old "Dogchain" we used to call him.

Was that before the hospital had a maternity wing or was it before the hospital was built?

No the hospital was built but they didn't have a maternity wing at the hospital as far as I remember. That was built later. No, they had Mrs McAlinden's maternity hospital there. And after that I don't remember any buildings from there. It seems to me it was all vacant land down to Nelson House.

What was that in those days.

It was built as a hotel I think in the very early days before the railway came through. When it was coming through they thought the station was going to be down there. That's what I've been told and Nelson House was built as a hotel.

And it was never licenced?

It was never licenced, no. Because the station was built up further and the Freemason's became the hotel that served the ... and the Bridgetown that served the railway. But I understand that Nelson House was built... when I first remember that it was Mrs Cummings' Coffee Palace. Jim Cummings mother. You remember old Jim Cummings? Well his mother ran a Coffee Palace. Yes. A sign was painted on the back wall somewhere which was visible from the railway line. That was still there when I remember.

Oh! On the brick wall yes. That was there for years.

And then the church. Was the Church of England built before your time?

I remember thatl was atthe laying of the Foundation Stone of the Church of England, Ithink it would be either late 1910 or early 1911. I'm not sure which.

Where was the church before that?

The church was what you know as the Railway Institute, you know where that building is?

Yes.

That was the Church of England there.

Was that at one point used as a Methodist Hall or something or am I confusing it with another building. I seem to remember them using an old building. The Methodists had a hall there.

No. It was the Church of England Hall. The Church of England used that as a hall for years after the church was moved.

Oh. There were a couple of houses beyond the church weren't there? Were they not there then? I remember Mrs Bazeley lived in one of them next to the church.

Yes and just on the pavement there old Gerry Robinson had a horse shoeing place- a bit later on opposite that because that was the end of the town at that railway crossing.

Yes. Except of course "Bridgedale" was beyond the railway crossing, wasn't it? The Blechynden home. Do you remember that? These days it's the historic home ofBridgetown.

"Blechynden House"?

Yes, "Bridgedale" they call it now. What you called "Blechynden House".

Yes, well that's what it was called in those days. There was one before that, a brick house that Bob Blechynden lived in, on the left hand side just over the line.

Yes. I think I remember that. Then there was nothing on the left from there down. You're talking about the present road?

No, the old road which went down to the bridge, there was no road over the river ...

"Bridgedale" was on the right hand side of the road?

Yes, the right hand side of the road, yes that's right. Just over the other side of the Blackwood bridge was the doctor's house, which was originally the first police station in Bridgetown.

Moulton was the first policeman wasn't he?

Yes. And that's where the Police station was.

We've got right through Bridgetown on that side of the road what about the other side of the road coming down again from the top end of the town? We'll start at the same end I told you about the building where the steam engines were assembled. Well there was nothing between that and Mrs Stanley's house then. That was over the other side of the bridge. The front of her place and her house was the other side of the creek. Then alongside her... they were big blocks, I don't know how much. Old Bill Walker had a place and his house was the other side of the creek too and it ran down to the main road. Then it was vacant land ...

Just a moment. Those blocks actually included the creek on them?

Yes. The creek ran through the middle and the houses were on the other side of the creek. The next house was a good way down, you went into it about alongside where the Infant Health Clinic is now. The next house was the other side of the creek. Butchers used to live in it in those days. That was the last house that was the other side of the creek. The others were this side of the creek. The first place was Rankine's plumber's shop. A little plumber's shop just there. Set back from the road between that and the next place was Woodhead's.

Was that Les Woodhead's family?

Yes, his mother. They started a fish place there. I remember "Fresh Fish-Mrs Woodhead". That was bit later on... oh, I don't remember... about 1913-14 I suppose. But then the next place along was the start of Lot 40, that my father owned and that was a little building when I first remember it a photographer had it. Because Joe and I had our photos taken behind there in 1911 before my parents went to England. They wanted photos of us and we were taken there and had our photos taken.

And when did your father buy it?

He owned it then.

So when had he bought that then? Almost as soon as he arrived in Bridgetown?

No. He bought the pub, you see, and the whole of Lot 40, I suppose about 1910.

That was when Aunt Ettie sent the money out was it?

Well yes, she must have sent it out about then because that's where he put his money, or part ofit any way. Alongside that was a little shop that Clocky moved into later but when I first remember it some people by the name of Nelsons had it; they were carriers. Had a little spring cart.

Was thatonLot40?

Yes. Then was the old pub. That was right down at ground level. The top of the windows were at street level.

Yes. I've seen pictures of the old Bridgetown Hotel.

IfI remember rightly the owners of the land had to pay, or part, the cost of building the street up because it was on a terrible slope in the early days and a kid got killed in the butcher's cart. Tipped it over. It was sloped like that. .. So that was where the hotel started there and the new, present day hotel, in its former self; it's been altered since. It had big balconies. I don't think it's got a balcony now has it?

I'm not sure.

Anyway that was the next place and then there was Lake's shop. That was all part of Lot 40. That was what afterwards became part of John F Smith's?

Yes.

But that was rebuilt at the same time as the hotel wasn't it?

Yes. That was all rebuilt. The next place, my earliest remembrance of that was Day & Co. Ernie Hills, you know "Sunnyhurst", Day & Co's orchard. They had a business there on the corner, Frank Chidgzey had it afterwards.

A produce business was it, is that what you said?

Day & Co? No, I don't think it was produce, I can't remember quite what sort of a business it was.

Chidgzey' s business was produce wasn't it?

Yes, well he had all sorts, he didn't have his produce there that was his store over the other side of the railway line. His offices were there.

We'll just talk about him for a moment. He was sort of the entrepreneur of Bridgetown in your youth wasn't he, Frank Chidgzey? I've heard of him all my life. He had a variety of businesses.

He and his brothers were all in partnership. They started that property out at Dinninup.

It had a pear orchard on it?

Yes. And a lot of apples too. Frank Chidgzey was going along quite well. I think it was the depression that wrecked him, you know, just like it wrecked a lot of other people.

Yes. We'll probably have to talk about the depression at some time. I guess there are not that many people left these days that actually remember the depression. So who was on beyond that, beyond Day & Co? Oh. Just before you go on with that, was there a road there? When I first remember, there was a steep track down to the creek and then the War Memorial was up the other side. What was there in the earliest times, was there a road there and a bridge over the creek?

Yes.

Over the creek?

Yes a bridge over the creek.

Leading up to the houses up behind? There were a couple of houses on Lot 40 weren't there? Up the back?

Yes. Lake's house was on the corner of Lot 40 up on Hester Street. I've driven up there in a car in the early days. They closed it after. You could take a car up there but it was very steep.

Yes, a very steep path.

Then adjoining Day & Co's place was a building where my first remembrance was a tea rooms. Then I think was Savory's barber shop. Old Mrs Savory.did most of the haircutting in the early days. You remember Tom Savory?

No, I don't think I do.

That was there and they used to have a saddled horse hitched up outside the shop. Any body could hire it. I never knew you could hire horses?

Well you couldn't hire a car. You'd hire this horse and ride out and see what you wanted and come back and leave him again.

I can remember some dubious hire cars at times. No doubt there were dubious horses too!

Yes! Well there was a horse always saddled there and you could hire him.

So the tearooms you're talking about. That's not where the "Kookaburra" was? That was further down wasn't it?

I don't remember where the Kookaburra was.

I think it was a bit further down. That building in my memory was always a bit of a mystery. It had mysterious basement areas.

Bartlett's! He was in what was Savory's barber shop.

That building went through various changes and there were sort of mysterious areas in that building. Basements, that at various times were opened up for business. I think there was a billiard saloon that was underneath it at one time.

That was under Day & Co's.

Yes. Was that there in your youth. Was there a billiard saloon there then?

No. The billiard saloon started up after they closed the billiard saloons in the pub. Pubs used to have billiard tables in them and they shifted them out.

They made it illegal, I suppose, did they?

I don't know what happened about that. I don't know if they made them illegal, I think that the hotels probably just did away with them. They had better use for the area because what was originally the billiard room at the Bridgetown, I know, became the lounge. The ladies lounge, you remember?

Yes, round the back there.

That was the billiard room originally. Then after Savory's shop there was another little wooden building there. A bootmaker had it, McGrath, that was the first person I ever remember having it. And then the "Blackwood Times" office do you remember the little wooden building where the "Blackwood Times" was?

Yes.

And then there were the remains ofTozer's shop which was burnt down when I first remember it. It was a wooden building and it had got burnt out and the stumps stayed there for years. It was between the "Blackwood Times" office and Blechynden's butchers shop. That block there.

That was afterwards Glancy' s butchers shop, was that the same building?

Yes, that was Glancy's butchers shop. I think Blechyndens built it. In fact they did because it's got their name still up on it in the brickwork. I'm not even sure whether that building is still there but that's certainly how I remember it.

I think it's still there and used as a butcher's shop. What came after that ... Walter & Co.

Which was McCay's store afterwards?

Yes, McCay's store, that was Walter & Co. Then after Walter & Co things changed a bit. Where Ewing's building is, you know where Percy Ewing, the solicitor, was?

Yes, where he used to be.

That's where the blacksmith's shop was.

We talked before about the blacksmith's shop on the bottom side of the road.

They used to shoe the horses on the footpath. And just along beside that was a little two storey wooden building that George Stevens owned. He used to live up in the top of it. Unmarried old bloke, old George Stevens. And then there was the lawyer's shop; Stanley, Money and Walker, I can see it now. That was where Ewing operated before he built his present building. And then there was Stevens Saddlery shop.

Where are we, about where Bob Urquart's place was? Where the Neptune service station was?

Yes. A little wooden building there, the saddlery shop. A fellow by the name of Tate used to do all work in there. I used to spend a lot of time in there as a kid. We had horses and we used to go in there and talk to this old bloke and pinch spurs out and try them for a day or two and then take them and put them back. He knew all right. He used to tell my mother about it. "Oh, the boys tried some spurs out" He was a good old fellow. We'd take them; he knew he'd get them back. We'd try them out. And then the National Bank.

That was there that early?

Yes. Then I don't remember anything until that little house Keremelovich started a little store there. That was there, who occupied it I don't know. From then on of course it was "Keyla" orchard.

Was that all orchard right up to that street? That was Allnutt's wasn't it?

Allnutt's, yes. There was nothing then; well, he went right down to Loftus Street. Where the Shell garage is now that was the old "Keyla" home and just opposite on the opposite side of the road was that house, an old brick house ...

The Henry house. George Hem-y lived in it later.

Yes, I don't remember who lived in it originally. It was there then in those days. And then was Moriaty's big blacksmith's shop. That was the end of the right hand side of the road.

Off the road down there, of course was "Ford House" which was one of the old buildings wasn't it?

Yes.

Who was "Ford House" built by originally do you know?

I don't know. The first people I remember living in it was Fred Brockman.

Who was afterwards the Surveyor General wasn't he? Yes.

Wasn't the hospital a Brockman home too? Wasn't the original hospital his home?

No, not as far as I know. I thought it was built as a hospital.

Perhaps you're right I don't know what made me think that.

I wouldn't know. It would have been very early days, the first matron ... it was just a very funny little building. I remember old Miss Boswell was the nurse there and I remember she had poisoned fingers, got blood poisoning or something. I remember going there to see her, I don't know how old I was, I was a very little kid. Funny place to build a hospital in those days, right on top of the hill. Hell of a job to get up that steep hill. It's not as steep now but in the early days it was a very steep gravel hill.

Yes, well even when I first remember it, it was still a very steep hill. If you wanted a cheap thrill on a bicycle you got to the top of the hospital hill and raced down it. Yes, it was a very steep hill. Bridgetown, of course, has always been on two streets, the main street of Hampton Street and the other street, Steere Street meeting at that tee junction at the Freemasons Hotel. Steere Street I guess really was the town's connection with the Lee-Steeres, as they afterwards became, out at "Jayes". I suppose that is really how it originated was the road out to their place.

I don't know ifit had anything to do with the Lee-Steeres.

I was interested to read a letter written to your mother I think by her brother Hugh in which he refers to Charlie Steere. They may not have used the Lee in those early days.

You mean Charlie Lee-Steere?

Yes. And he referred to him as Charlie Steere.

It could have taken the name from them then, but I really don't know.

But "Jayes" did come in close to Bridgetown?

Yes where you leave Steere Street to go to Boyup, that was Jayes Road.

Yes, and the "Jayes Station" as it would have been in those days came almost into Bridgetown. (I think the days when "Jayes" came almost to Bridgetown were long before Frank Willmott's time-possibly around the 1860 's-DW) Going up Steere street then, the railway line was there when you first remember it? It had come through about four or five years before you were born I think. (A number ofearly families that had hyphenated names in England used a simplerJann in the early years ofsettlement. The (Drake) Broclanans for one. Some have now reverted to the longerform. I have recently learned that the naming authorities will not approve hyphenated names for streets etc. Thus we see Broclanan streets, Steere streets (there is another in Collie) and others-DW).

Yes. I'm not sure what year it came.

I seem to remember old Bandy Doust could remember it couldn't he? He was a few years older than you and he could remember the first train. I remember him telling me once about the arrival of the first train and how he took to the bush for three days afterwards or something. So it can't have been very long before your time.

Well, going up Steere Street after the Mechanics Institute which was on the corner, I think the next place was Ryan's barber shop. Ted Ryan had a barber shop there. A little wooden shop there. Then the school. The original school came in there, where I started school. On the other side of the line, I don't really remember what was there before Wesfarmers moved there. They weren't there. Between the railway line and the Roads Board Office, I don't really remember. There must have been some buildings there but I can't remember what they were. You know where the original Roads Board office building was?

Is that what was afterwards the library?

That's right. That was the original Roads Board office and they had their machinery... kept it all at the back and I think part of that block that Wesfarmers are on would have been part of the machinery block. Then after that there ... where the baker's shop is now beside that building, I don't think there was anything there, I can't remember. Because there was a baker's shop but it was further up. The corner where Moyes' shop is now there was a bit of a produce shed there. I remember chaff and stuff being kept in it. Then there were several shops along there. The baker's shop was there, it would be part of where Moyes' is now. The original shop run by Blakeney; they went to Balingup after. You probably know the Blakeneys at Balingup.

Yes.

Well they started in that baker's shop in Bridgetown. Then things haven't changed much, the next place was Polly Dakin's, he was the undertaker ... cabinet maker. Then I don't remember if there was anything after that until you got to the Convent. And then there were several houses up to the Jayes corner but the only one I can remember, it's still there. It's the last house before you get to the swimming pool, a wooden house. I can remember that being built. It was built by a fellow called Jack Mance. He married one of the Muirs. He was a carpenter... he died soon after. I remember when he died. He wasn't there very long. And then of course was the original Sports Ground.

The "Old Wreck" as it was known.

The old Recreation ground. The only football match I ever remember going to was there.

She must have been some football ground because it was solid clay. She'd have been a rough old football ground in the middle of winter I should think. We used occasionally to use ft. It was in a very bad state of disrepair when I was at school.

Of course in the early days before all the clearing it probably wasn't so bad.

I suppose it probably wasn't quite so wet but it was just a solid claypan. That's where the swimming pool is now isn't it?

Yes.

The house you were talking about, I presume, is the one that Bob Clarke lived in afterwards. In comparatively modem times. That was a pretty old house.

No. I think that was another house, wasn't that pulled down later with the swimming pool? I don't remember. I think there was another house after the one that I remember. The one that I remember clearly belonged to Jack Mance. I think there was another house where Bob Clarke lived further along.

What about over on the other side coming up from the Freemasons?

Oh, the other side going right back to the bottom of the street again there was the Freemasons Hotel and then there was a cafe where the Britannia ...

What was afterwards old Chris's? (Prastidis-DW) That was there then? Long before old Chris there was a little Greek fellow had it, I can't remember his name. He had one of those chocolate machines where you drop a penny in and pull the thing out with chocolate on, we used to try all sorts of things to get chocolates out of it. Alongside that was Roger Ryan's tailor shop. He was the fellow who stood for Labor in opposition to my father when he first when he first won in 1914. Then the whole of the rest of the street to the railway line was taken up by Bennetts' produce store or grocery ... general or universal providers store. That's where Kirby and Katherine Stanley and all those were but that was all Bennetts' store in those days. Then the other side of the line was London House.

Oh, I was wondering if London House was there that long ago.

Oh, yes that was very early. I remember it was a general purpose sort of a store too. I think Jim Awcock's father worked there before the war. I remember a fellow coming down from it and getting a whole lot of kids out of the school after school to go and shift whole lot of empty boxes and things. And I was one of them and after he bought us Kola beer and I got home and told my mother I'd had Kola beer and she rousted on me. She thought I shouldn't be drinking beer! Kola beer was pretty harmless. Then I think must have been just about old Fred McAlinden's home then, where Veales lived. There were a couple of houses there.

Yes, I've got vague recollections of a couple of houses there. They might still be there for all I know. Before the powerhouse?

Yes, before the powerhouse was built, I don't remember what was there. It's too long ago.

So, can you remember when electricity first came to Bridgetown?

Oh,yes.

Who built the powerhouse? Did Gerry Randell build it?

Yes, he had a big old gas-producer engine in there.

Am I right in saying that he was an American? Gerry Randell?

I don't think so. I wouldn't know.

I don't know what made me think that. But he just came to Bridgetown?

He came and set up. He'd been with the electricians that helped me over the trotting ground. What were their names? In Perth?

Brear and Doonan?

Yes, Brear and Doonan. They knew Gerry Randell very well. I think he might have been mixed up with them at some stage. They knew him quite well.

I know he was always regarded as a bit of a genius for keeping that powerhouse going during the war.

Nobody but Gerry Randell could have kept it going I don't think. It was a ramshackle outfit.

It was a pretty rickety old powerhouse by the end wasn't it? When the SEC took it over.

It was never up to much.

What was it, 110 volt; is that what the original power supply was in Bridgetown? I think it was 110. Direct current of course. And then of course was Jack Smith's pub.

The Terminus?

The Terminus. Then there were various houses along there. Where the school is, I don't remember a lot of them. There was shop up there too, Woods had a shop further up there and Les Nelson built a house when first he was married. That's still there. It's past the school reserve. There were a number of houses up there but up at the far end where Ernie Hastie and Ted Doust and those people are, that wasn't built on, that was a vacant block because Chidgzey had a sort of market garden there at one stage,

I think that was still vacant even in my childhood.

Edgar Hall was his gardener. The kids used to pinch his water melons.

Yes, well I remember knocking off water melons from old Jack Tucak' s garden up the other side of town!

That's as far as the business area went.

So that was pretty much the extent of Bridgetown then. There was a bit up past where the tennis courts are now. Of course the cemetery was there in those days. Beyond the cemetery there were a few old houses up there weren't there?

Oh, yes. Not very many. A few houses up there. That's where I started school; in Ozanne's house.

Ozanne, that's the name I was trying to think of actually.

They had an orchard there. In fact Ozanne built the house that McAlinden lived in.

Alec McAlinden?

Yes.

On "Invanhoe" orchard?

That belonged to Lake, the "Ivanhoe" orchard, but there was a bit of orchard of Ozanne's. The opposite side of the road ... that was all orchard along there right up onto the big hill. You know, if it was cleared it would overlook the showground. Quite an extensive area there.

So the town has grown a lot since those days.

Goodness gracious, yes.

The roads, of course, wouldn't have been sealed then. Just mudholes in the winter and dust bowls in the summer I suppose?

They were. Mudholes is right when the sleeper cutting was at its top. God! They were dreadful. They really were dreadful.

Big iron wheeled drays and things would have just chopped the roads to bits, I should imagine.

Yes, because they would run one wheel in the gutter all the time, they had no brakes of course. You can't put brakes on a two wheeler. They were nearly all sleeper drays, and they'd just run the wheel in the gutter and that would gradually work out until it was the whole road was a boghole. Oh, well I think that's probably pretty well covered Bridgetown. We might have to think about something else to talk about next time. We've given Bridgetown a good working over. I must admit your memory is probably better than mine is forty years later.

I don't know, I've probably got bits of misses in my memory. There are some places where it has been pulled out and rebuilt years ago and I can't remember what was there.

I have difficulty in visualising Bridgetown as it was when I was a kid. As you've been going through it of course I've been trying to remember my earliest memories of the same areas. In some cases it's the same in some cases I have difficulty in remembering what was there. Any was that's what I guess progress is about. Interview of Francis Drake Willmott by son Del Francis Willmott. Interview took place in January 1989.

POLITICAL MEMORIES

Del Willmott Well last time we talked, we talked about Bridgetown and how you remember it before the First World War. I thought this time we might try and talk about some of the political people you remember because the family has been very involved in politics since the beginning of your life and right through it. Your father, of course, was a member of Parliament from 1914 and a member several of the early ministries and you too were a member of Parliament for 19 years so obviously over that period you have met many of the people who were well known in W estem Australian history. With some of them, you would perhaps remember things about them that are not so well known. So, who is the earliest of the famous political figures that you remember. Talking earlier you said you don't remember anything about Lord Forrest. I know that you remember Sir James Mitchell quite well. Perhaps a bit about your father's political career and the connection to Sir James Mitchell whose ministry he was in at one stage.

Frank Willmott Yes, well I don't know much about the ministries that he was in before that. That was Sir Henry Lefroy. I don't know much about them.

It's probably worth mentioning at this point that your father was the first or second leader of the Country Party in Western Australia and as such was one of the first parliamentary representatives of that party. Of course you were a Liberal and so was Henry Willmott, your cousin, who was also in Parliament. So that's probably worth mentioning at this point; that your father was in the Lefroy, Colebatch and Mitchell ministries and he was there as the leader of the Country Party.

Yes. As a matter of fact he was the only Country Party member to have represented the seat of Nelson which was the seat down in the Bridgetown area in those days. There was never any other Country Party representative for that and I think the same for Sussex around the Busselton area. Pickering was in Parliament about the same time as my father and he was the only Country Party representative for that area. (Of course the seat in which Bridgetown was located in the 1960s and early 70s was the now abolished seat ofBlackwood. That seat was held by the Countly Party for a briefperiod from March 1968 to October 1971. It was won by Ron Kitney at the General Election of1968 when he defeated John Hearman who had held the seat as a Liberal since 1950. I contested the seat for the Liberal Party in 1971 at which time Ron Kitney retired and was replaced as the Countly Party candidate by David Reid who like me was from Bridgetown and also an old fi·iend. Although I topped the prima,y vote by several hundred votes a weak Labor candidate and the preferences ofseveral minor candidates allowed David to finish ahead ofLabor which meant that with Labor preferences he was able to defeat me comfortably. He reminded me many years later that in our home town ofBridgetown we each polled exactly the same number ofprimary votes. When a redistribution abolished the seatfor the 1974 election David Reid decided to contest the Federal seat ofForrest at the 1972 General Election. After he was unsuccessfitl in Forrest he succeeded Sir Thomas Drake-Brockman in the Senate when the latter retired early. He became the last Counhy Party member ofthe Federal Parliament and was defeated for a Senate place in the Double Dissolution Election of1974 which had been brought on early by the Senate refusing to pass supply bills. Of course a much bigger crisis erupted when the Senate again held up supply in 1975 leading to the famous sacldng of Gough Whit/am 's Labor Government by the Governor General, Sir John Kerr. In the meantime, at the by-election for Blackwood following David Reid's resignation the Liberal candidate was AA (Sandy) Lewis who won the seat comfortably. The circumstances had totally changed fiwn the General Election of1971. I was not a candidateforpre-selection as I had moved my family to Perth in mid 1971.-DW)

Obviously the Country Party did achieve some prominence in country areas. From what you've told me before, the Liberal Party was pretty run down. Yes the Liberal party was fairly run down and the Labor Party was coming up and the Country Party, as far as I can remember, was formed more or less to combat the rising Labor Party.

We've gone through life "dealing" with the Country Party, as we would perhaps put it, in country areas and they've always had what I would describe as a socialistic tendency which you could trace back to their early days. Was that the case at the very beginning. Did they have this in their early platforms?

I don't really remember but I very much doubt if they did. My father had no socialistic tendency at all; he was quite the reverse. I think it came in fairly soon afterwards because the Country Party became strong in the wheat areas and a lot of them had a Labor background. The Country Party people in those areas had formerly been from a Labor background. So I think that had its effect on the Country Party after the first few years.

Once the Liberal Party started to push back into the country they probably started to take over in areas where you didn't have quite that same background.

That would be so. The Liberal Party died out and they became the Nationalists, then after that they turned back and became Liberal again.

So just getting back to some of those early people that you remember, you don't remember Colebatch or Lefroy?

I remember Colebatch all right but his ministry only lasted a very short while. Lefroy I don't remember, I was only a kid then.

Your father was involved in one of the highlights of the Colebatch Ministry wasn't he?

What highlight was that?

The boat trip to Fremantle-did he ever tell you about that?

Yes! He wasn't involved in it but... Colebatch as Premier went down to speak to or interview the wharfies. He was foolish enough to go down by boat and they lined up on the railway bridge and dropped stones on his launch. It wasn't a very successful trip! The whole ministry wasn't a success. It was the only time they ever appointed a Premier from the Legislative Council.

It was only a month wasn't it that Ministry? It only lasted a month.

Oh yes.

Wasn't that the time when the big wharf strike was on in Fremantle? Were you involved in going down and loading the ships and all that business? I gather boys from school and all sorts of people went down.

Some did but I wasn't involved. I was too young.

Yes. It actually culminated in a wharflabourer being shot or being killed anyway.

Yes, I think it did.

There's been a bit of publicity about that lately but I must admit that I don't remember the details.

I was too young to really remember the details of that.

Anyway, what about Jimmy Mitchell? Obviously you remember him pretty well and the effect he had on your own father's political career. What about telling me a bit about him. Oh yes. I remember Jim Mitchell personally. I remember him quite well. I was grown up when he was Lieutenant Governor after he left the Parliament but I remember him in Government. I remember some of the big arguments that took place between him and my father. Of course that was Group Settlement that started that. My father having been brought up or living round the Warren area when first he came out to WA knew the country. The people that he lived with knew the country. He was very opposed to them opening up the country round Northcliffe and Pemberton because Mitchell's idea at the time when it was opened up was not to develop the karri country but to develop the plain country. He was aware, because he'd been told, that the plain country was problem country. It was and still is to this day. You never could grow anything on it but the first development was done on the plains round Northcliffe and of course that didn't work so then they moved the attention to karris and they ringbarked that beautiful karri forest, magnificent karri forest was ringbarked and they developed farms in that at great cost to the people trying to develop them and, in my opinion, at great cost to the country in beautiful timber. It was a great mistake. It should never have been opened up. My father was very opposed to it being opened up and he fell out with Jim Mitchell over it quite strongly. It eventually led to my father's defeat. But I think there were quite a lot of mistakes made. Of course what my father was advocating at that time was settlement further up the line from south of Pinjarra and all through that country. That was before the days ofirrigation. It lent itself to what my father considered closer settlement and I think his idea was right because just as my father's career in Parliament was finished they started what was known as the South-west Conference and that was formed purely with the idea of starting irrigation in the area. That was the start of the push for irrigation. That was what should have been done, I think, instead of the development down in that karri country. They'd have done a lot better to have put them into that irrigation area and had closer settlement there instead of further south. Because the railways and roads were all there. Down at Northcliffe and that other country there were no roads, no railway. All of that had to be developed, all at considerable expense for not very much benefit.

Also at great human cost. There's been a lot written in recent years about the hardships that were suffered down there. Did you ever go into any of those Group settlements.

Yes, in the early days I did and it was pitiful the poor beggars starving, practically starving.

In a lot of cases they were people who had no experience of farming.

They were Londoners, a lot of them. They had no experience and to put them away down there, you know, without proper supervision. That sort of thing, to my way of thinking, was rather a criminal sort of an act. If they had been located further up they'd have been under better care.

Of course your father too, as you say, in addition to having lived round the Warren (your mother was a Brockman from the Warren) was also a forester prior to his entry into Parliament so he knew what he was talking about in connection with timber.

Yes. He was in the Forestry as a Forest Ranger before he went into Parliament and he had some experience of it. He knew what he was talking about but unfortunately Jim Mitchell was what I'd call a pigheaded man. He reckoned he knew it all but he didn't understand that country and he wouldn't listen to anybody. That's just my observation of him anyway. A lot of people wouldn't agree with that probably.

You obviously heard your own father talking about it at the time. He was at the centre of it and I don't think there's much dispute that certainly the settlers themselves underwent tremendous hardship and if for no other reason the scheme was ill-conceived.

Yes they did undergo great hardship but as I said before to no very great benefit. That country has never been easy to develop. All the settlers there now or those that think about it will tell you that it would have been better if it had never been opened up. Yes these days, of course, when people are very concerned about the future of the native forests, such a scheme would be quite inconceivable. But it is easy to be critical of things have happened 60 or 70 years ago.

I think that led directly to another great mistake by government. A very great mistake in my opinion. It led to the reservation of timber rights to the Crown on private property. In 1926, I think, all timber rights were reserved to the Crown which was absolute madness because the settlers or the landholders weren't allowed to sell the timber but they were allowed to clear it. That led later on to the bulldozing ofthousands of acres ofbeautifuljarrah country.

Yes, I can remember that era. You yourself were responsible for bringing that to an end weren't you? The reservation of timber rights to the Crown.

I fought for that from the day I went into Parliament and f'mally it was removed but too late to be of any benefit really. It should never have been put on. It was put on, I believe, as a sort of cover-up because a lot of people started to realise, that a great deal of beautiful timber was being destroyed round Northcliffe and Pemberton and that country. A song and dance started to go on about that and the government covered themselves or sort of tried to cover it up, I think, by this stupid reservation of timber rights to the Crown. And it didn't save any timber. All it led to was thousands ofloads of good timber being destroyed because governments, certain governments anyway, had a great down on (dislike of-Dr¥) private ownership of timber.

That was the tragic part about it wasn't it. There was no incentive for farmers to farm their timber; to look after it and to conserve it.

That's right. Had it not been for that reservation of timber rights to the Crown a great deal ofit would have been farmed. A lot of farmers with small woodlots on their properties wouldn't have bulldozed that. They would have kept it and made money from it.

And allowed it to regenerate.

There was a provision in the Forest Act. I suppose it's still there. Well it was still there when I left Parliament. That catered for timber, with the consent of the Conservator of Forests, on your land to be allowed as an improvement towards the freeholding of your land. That was never heard of. It was never used. That section was never implemented because they brought in the reservation of timber rights to the Crown. Had they not brought that in and had they implemented that section in the Act and allowed farmers to claim timber areas on their land as an improvement it would have led to the holding by all those people of that timber.

A lot of the timber country in the Blackwood Valley, would have been better today if it had never been cleared. It had the best timber on it.

Thousands of loads of good jarrah would have been saved. As it was it went to the bulldozers and into the fire which was absolute madness in my opinion.

Well today, of course, we are now faced with huge programs to replant timber on a lot of that Blackwood Valley country to try and reduce salinity in the Blackwood River.

A lot of the better jarrah country in there would never have been cleared had they been able to hold that as their own property and claim it as an improvement which was provided for in the Act. In my opinion the Forest Act of 1918 was one of the first and best Forest and Conservation Acts ever written but it was never enacted by Parliament. (I think he meant "enforced by the Government"-DW)

I have heard that said. I was going to come to that actually. That the act of 1918 was a conservation Act and one of the first in the world. One of the best in the world. It was.

Was your father involved in the drafting of that Act

I suppose he was. In 1918, yes, he would have been involved in some way. Sure to have been with his experience as a forester.

Yes what was he minister for at that time? He was a Minister wasn't he, what would he have been?

1919 -Lands.

Lands; so he quite likely had some input into the Forest Act as well. He also achieved some notoriety as I remember it, and I have read one or two of the press accounts of it, by his actions just when he had lost his seat. rm not sure whether it was his Legislative Assembly seat because he afterwards went to the Legislative Council. He caused the State orchard at Harvey or was it at Brunswick, to be grubbed out.

Oh that was when he was Minister for Agriculture. In one of the earlier governments he was Minister for Agriculture and he realised that the State orchard at Brunswick was quite hopeless. It was on land that was winter flooded and in other words, as you know wet feet, would be no good for apples. They couldn't stand it. One horse could just pull the trees out and they'd been there for some years. It was quite useless.

There was a great uproar wasn't there?

Hell yes! My father was awarded by the Bridgetown people who knew what was going on. It was the orchard centre of the state at that time. They awarded him the DSO. The Destroyer of State Orchards!

As I understand it, and I have read one or two of the press reports of the time, there was a great to-do about it and as I understand it part of the outrage was on the part of some of the people round Brunswick and Bunburywho felt they had been got at. I think some of the Clarkes in particular.

Oh yes there's no doubt there was a tremendous row about it but my father had the strength to stand up for his conviction. He just went ahead. I think he had the backing of the Head of the Horticultural department who at that time was George Wickens. They were friends before he ever went into Parliament from when he was an orchardist in Bridgetown and George Wickens was stationed in Bridgetown in the early days.

Well clearly history proved that for dry land orchard there was no district in W estem Australia that equalled Bridgetown. Certainly when irrigation came about it was a different story but through all that era when dry land orchard was the only way that fruit was produced in W estem Australia it was Bridgetown that produced by far the bulk of it wasn't it?

Yes the only other area that produced anything much was Mount Barker.

And that was similar country. It certainly wasn't like Brunswick-Harvey.

And there was a bit up around the hills and, yes, it was all produced under cultivation and dry farming in those days. There was no such thing as irrigation. But when the irrigation started that was the death knell of Bridgetown. In the main the water around Bridgetown is salty and no good for irrigation. The Blackwood, even, is salty and dams, largely, if you put them down around Bridgetown they tend to be salty.

Also, it's not very good holding country as we found with four dams. Just getting back to some of those early political people that you might remember. This really goes back into the area of legend rather than what you remember but I do remember you telling me once a story about your father's involvement with the Mundaring Water Scheme. I think he was working on that wasn't he? And he got caught up in some political intrigue there of which he was only half aware.

Yes he wasn't much aware ofit I don't think at the time. His job .. .I think he was for a while in charge of teams ring barking. They ringbarked a lot in the catchment area. But he finally finished up as the Inspector of Pipes. He had to inspect all the pipes. They were manufactured out at Falkirk as it was called in those days. It's Bassendean today. They were all manufactured out there and they had to be inspected and he was the Inspector of Pipes. But I don't know what the intrigue was and I don't think my father really knew much about it because he was transferred from Public Works to Forestry and went away down south and I don't think he found out until after he was in Parliament himself. There was some skulduggery going on in the government of the time and there was a Royal Commission of inquiry or something of the sort appointed to look into the matter and I remember my father telling me that he didn't know until afterwards when he was in Parliament himself and looking up old files that he had been asked for by members of this commission to give evidence. They were told "Oh, we don't know where he is, he's gone to the eastern states somewhere". He wasn't, he was in the Forestry down south. So there was a bit of a cover-up there somewhere. Just what it was about I don't know.

Yes. Of course, it was a politically bitter time wasn't it? The Sunday Times and Vosper in particular were mounting a terrible campaign against O'Connor and Sir John Forrest and anyone who was caught up in it was likely to get damaged. I remember you telling me about that. Do you remember any of the other political personalities of that early time? Do remember anything about any of the election campaigns? I seem to remember you telling me that you went, as a child, on the election trail with your father. It must have been a very different thing to the election campaigns that I remember.

In 1917, I think, it was. I was 13. They had the election in those days in the winter, about October. I went with my father on a campaign down from Bridgetown. He was going all through the Warren which was all part of the seat of Nelson in those days. He had a little single seater Ford car. We started off in this and got just 12 miles from Bridgetown and there was water over the road. We had to push the car out of that and get going again.

That must have been somewhere near Y omup was it?

No, it was just near the Donnelly paddock. Do you remember there was a dip in the road near Stevens paddock? The road's all been raised up now but that dip used to get flooded. Well, that's the first place we got stuck. And then we went on from there down to Balbarrup and had a bit of a meeting at B~lbarrup and then on to Dingup. They had a meeting at Dingup and from there on we really struck trouble. All the road were just tracks you know. Mostly they were corduroyed. Mostly the corduroy was just blackboy. We battled on and battled on and tried to get down to Deeside. We finished up with the car simply bogged and surrounded by water. We left it there and crawled out and got out on logs and walked two or three miles to Deeside and camped the night there. The following day Andrew Muir came with a couple of horses and pulled the car are out and pulled it back to Manjimup. It was finished and there was a surveyor's big drag ... ifyou know what a drag is, a big four wheeled buggy type thing with three horses. He was camped that night atDeeside and my father evidently hired him to finish his trip with this drag. So after we had dragged the car back to Manjimup and put it on the train we did the rest of the trip with these three horses and the drag. What a caper!

And what did campaigns consist of then? Were there meetings in halls?

Yes, meetings in halls. In the little hall at Dingup there was a meeting. Not many people there but mainly in halls. Pemberton and Deanmill and those places.

That would have been a fairly hostile area I suppose. Yes but not as hostile as you would think. My father was Forest Ranger and knew a lot of these timber workers. A lot of the timber hewers in those days. He knew them all and had been writing out their permits on the stumps for years and they stuck by him a lot.

Do remember who his opponents were in any of those early elections?

The first one was a fellow, Roger Ryan, who was a tailor in Bridgetown in the 1914 election.

The seat had been vacated or the previous member had died?

No he didn't die. Layman was a Liberal member of Parliament and on hearing that my father was endorsed for the Country Party I think Layman realised that he was likely to be unable to hold it against the Labor Party, whereas my father would, so he pulled out in favour ofmy father who defeated the Labor candidate.

Was it preferential voting at that time?

No.

First past the post was it? It was your comment about Layman pulling out that made me ask that question.

No that first election was not preferential voting. I can't remember exactly when preferential voting came in but I don't think the 1917 election was preferential voting either.

As a matter of interest do you remember when the 1914 election was? Prior of the start of the war or after?

It must have almost coincided with the start of the war. (It was 21st October 1914. The war started 15th August 1914 -DW)

In 1917, of course, the war still would have been going very much.

Oh yes. Very much. Yes that's the reason why I was there at all because my older brother Sykes was at school in England. He was taken there for three years which finished up nine because of the war and he couldn't come back and my sister was in Perth at school and there was no one to drive the old Ford car but me. I was only 10 years old and my mother didn't drive and I had to take my father in to the train on Mondays and meet him again on Friday. So that's one of the reasons that I never went away to Hale until I was 14. My sister had left by then. I actually taught her to drive. In actual fact that was the worst thing I ever did. I didn't get much use of the car after that! When I came back from school my mother and sister had the car for their private use. I never had a chance to drive it much! I had to ride a horse.

Do you remember who the Labor leader at that time was? That was a period when they weren't Labor governments?

Scadden

Scadden was the Labor leader was he? He became Premier later of course.

No he was the Premier before the 1914 election. 1911 roughly.

Yes, he had several spells as Premier didn't he?

I think Labor was still in government after 1914. There were some quick changes around 1914 and without looking it up I can't be certain. (JackScaddan was Premier fi·om October 1911 to July 1916. He left the Labor Party in 1917 during the great Labor Split over conscription. He is the only person to have held ministerial rank representing each ofthe Labor, Nationalist (Liberal) and Counhy parties.-DW)

Yes it was a volatile time and elections, as I understand it. Political meetings could be pretty robust. I can remember the era and indeed I got involved when meetings were still held in halls and sometimes they could be quite robust.

One in particular I remember my father telling me about I wasn't there. At Kirup there was a great old jarrah jerker, who was manager of the mill at Kirup, called "Kelly the Mug".

Yes "Kelly the Mug" was a legend in the south-west.

The timber workers were going to play Hell. My father held this meeting in the Kirup hall but he was a great mate of "Kelly the Mug". Just before the meeting started old "Kelly the Mug" walked into the hall, straight down to the front row of seats and before he sat down he turned round to the mob in the hall and said "the first bastard to open his mouth here I'll king hit him". He was a great fighter and they were scared of him. All the great hassling never took place. He bluffed them.

Yes he must have been a great personality "Kelly the Mug". There were many stories about him still circulating when I was a young man in Bridgetown. All the old-timers after a few beers would start telling you stories about "Kelly the Mug". How they fixed the races and so on.

He was a great character. One of his sons, Bernie Kelly, used to ride for my uncle, old Uncle Hughie Brockman.

Racehorses?

No not racehorses so much. High jumpers. He had Nantories (sp?) which held all the records for high jumping. I suppose he must have trained his racehorses too. He must have ridden his racehorses too. Of course he had those two horses that he won the Perth Cup and the Adelaide Cup with.

Hughie Brockman?

Yes, he won the Perth Cup, the Adelaide Cup and the Onkaparinga. Sparkle won the Perth Cup and the Adelaide Cup and the other horse that won the Onkaparinga was Matchlock. He was a Carbine horse.

Where were they bred? At Torridon?

I'm not sure. I think Sparkle was bred at Torridon. A funny potbellied little thing. You'd think it was always in foal. A little gelding but it could gallop. They can gallop in all shapes and sizes.

Yes it's funny the Brockmans have always been involved in racehorses one way or another haven't they but generally it doesn't seem to have rubbed off too much on the Willmotts. Not directly anyway.

No!!

Not directly!! Anyway I'll leave that. Coming to more modem times your father lost his seat in the Legislative Assembly in.... ?

1921. The same year he entered the Legislative Council.

He was there till 1926? He only had five years. There was a vacancy caused by the death of Ephraim Clarke. My father stood and won it. He only held it the five years. He lost it in 1926.

That was more or less the end of the Country Party in the South-west until a resurgence again when Ron Kitney won Blackwood.

Yes they fired for a while again then. They've died again now. They never really frred in the South­ West.

Yes that was interesting. So then I guess you lost contact a bit with the political world. As a kid I remember seeing many how-to-vote cards in the old packing shed at "Applewood." I think you must have got involved in Bill Scott's campaign when he stood. Unsuccessfully I think wasn't it?

Yes I got involved in that and it was unsuccessfully. I always swore to God that I wouldn't have anything to do with politics and standing myself but I eventually got talked into it.

Yes so that was many years later 1956-wasn't it? 1956 was when you entered Parliament wasn't it?

No. 1955.

I know it was only a couple of years after I left school. So I guess you didn't have much to do with the political people in between. Ross McLarty? He was still there when you entered Parliament wasn't he?

Yes he was.

Just a footnote on Jimmy Mitchell. I can remember meeting him towards the end of his life. I can remember you introducing me to him in the main street in Busselton when I was a little kid and him asking me what I wanted to do. I told him I wanted to be an engineer which was my ambition at the time. I also remember him saying to me "Oh, I think there are too many engineers". I don't know what sort of scarifying experience he had had with engineers but he obviously didn't hold them in high regard! Yes I remember that. Then not long after I went to Hale School he in fact died and I remember lining the streets up near Parliament House. Of course Hale School in those days was just over the road from Parliament House and we lined the streets there as the cortege went past on its way to Karrakatta. I also have some other vague meJ;Uories of Jimmy Mitchell myself and I remember him going up and down The Terrace of course when he became so well known.

I have some quite happy memories of Jimmy too. I remember attending a marron supper in Pemberton one night. He was down there for the Show I think. They put on a marron supper. Somebody had to catch all these marron. Who do you think they got? Charley Burns.

Who was Charley Bums?

Don't you remember Charley Burns? He was the blackfellow brought up by Fred Brockman. When Fred Brockman was out on a Survey trip in the early days he came on a blacks camp. They had cleared out and left this little baby lying by the fire. They had left him so Fred Brockman picked him up and took him home and he was reared. Fred Brockman and his wife reared Charley Burns.

This was Fred Brockman who was afterwards Surveyor-General was it?

Yes. When I was a boy Charley Burns was round the place then and he became quite a character. He was in both world wars. He was certainly in the first one and did pretty well. I'm not sure he was in the second one. He was in uniform but I don't know whether he got away. I doubt it. Anyway Charley had to catch these marron. He knew all the places of course. He knew that Warren country like the back of his hand. They brought in great masses of marron and we had a great marron supper. Old Jimmy Mitchell loved marron and he stuffed himselffull. At the end of the evening, there were speeches of course, there was there was one very big marron left. A huge fellow like one you wouldn't see today. Towards the end of the evening old Jimmy Mitchell started looking at this marron and he picked him up and said "I'm sure nobody will mind me taking this home on the train to Lady Mitchell". From away at the back of the hall a voice said "I'll bet Lady Mitchell never bloody well sees it".

So what other people from that period do you remember? I'm going to get on eventually to your own political career. Do you remember any of the other political personalities

Oh yes, Charlie Latham I knew him quite well.

Yes. Well, he was still in Parliament when you went in wasn't he? (Charlie (Sir Charles) Latham was a Counhy Party Member who at various times served in the Legislative Assembly, the Legislative Council and for a briefterm as a senator in the Federal Parliament.-D rJ7)

Yes he was in for many years and was still there when I went in. And as you say I knew Ross McLarty. Yes, several of the Members that I just knew, but was never thick with them. Sydney Stubbs I remember who was there in my father's day and was still there when I went to Parliament house with Ernie Hoar while I was on the Bridgetown Roads Board. Round about the time of the Second World War and Sydney Stubbs was still there.

One member who was there with both your father and you was J.B.Sleeman the member for Fremantle who was there from your father's era to your own wasn't he?

No I don't think so.

I thought he was and Latham - wasn't he there with your father?

I'm not sure.

We can look that up in the parliamentary biography.

Yes, probably Latham but I don't remember whether he was or not. I think he probably was. Some of them were there for a very long time

Yes I think they tended to do that more in those days than now. These days I think people generally tend to enter Parliament earlier and retire. Which perhaps is a good thing. In some ways I think it might be better if they entered later and retired later.

Yes I think that's right. I think it's a mistake to enter Parliament too young. You need more experience in life and after all Parliament is all about life. Parliament has got to be a mixture of people. That's what it's all about - people.

Coming to more modern times, I guess the first campaign you are really involved in a big way before you went into Parliament was probably the 1949 one was it? That was certainly a big election campaign which I remember quite well myself although I was only a kid.

That was the first real Liberal campaign.

Were you involved in the '46 election which would have been the previous one wouldn't it?

Yes.

Well, I don't remember that one.

Was that when John Bearman stood first? No that was a State campaign that was Henry's last campaign in 1947. Were you involved in that one?

Only in a mild sort of a way.

I'd forgotten that State campaign of course but I was thinking of the big federal election in 1949 which I remember quite well myself. Of course, that was the one where Bob Menzies was elected for the second time. What do you remember about that election? It was a very bitterly fought one wasn't it.

Yes, the first election I was heavily involved in was the 1949 one when McLarty won government.

No that was in 1950. In 1949 was the Federal election when Menzies won government. You were involved in the 1949 one too weren't you?

Yes I was heavily involved in that. Yes from that time on I seemed to be involved in elections all the time. It was 1950 that the State election was held wasn't it?

Yes. We can check that but I'm pretty sure that's right.

That's when McLarty won government?

Yes I'm pretty sure.

No. He lost it.

We can check that but I think he won government then in 1950 and lost it again in 1953.

Break to look in Parliamenta,y Handbook.

Well we've had a look in the Parliamentary Handbook and we've resolved a couple of these questions and it is a fact that Ross McLarty was first elected Premier in 1947 and had six years till 1953. So you were right about that. We've also checked up on Sir Charles Latham and J. B. Sleeman. Those members were in Parliament with your father and were in Parliament with you. Sleeman was in fact the only one who was continuously in the State house from the time your father was there until you were elected. That was just an interesting little sidelight. Getting back to Sir Ross McLarty. Of course I remember old Ross quite well myself. He was really the first Liberal Premier in modem times in Western Australia wasn't he? What do you really remember about him.

I can remember him fighting elections in Bridgetown. The Liberal Party or the Nationalists as they were then stood Guy Thomson and at the same time Jack Smith stood.

For the Nationalists?

Yes. And that's the year that Bill Scott stood. I was backing Bill Scott.

And Joe, I believe, was backing Guy Thomson?

Yes, my brother was backing Guy Thomson.

I don't think Guy ever quite forgot that did he?

No he never forgot. I can remember Ross McLarty pulling me up one evening outside the Bridgetown pub and asking. He said "Oh this is interesting. Your brother's helping our bloke and you're with Bill Scott. What's going on?" "The only reason I'm with Bill Scott is because you people failed to endorse him. He was the man you should have endorsed instead of endorsing Guy Thomson and Jack Smith and running the two of them side-by-side. You should have endorsed Scott because he is a capable man and he applied for endorsement and didn't get it so then he accepted endorsement from the Country Party.

Just a minute you've confused me. You said Jack Smith was a Nationalist but he wasn't a Nationalist was he? What was he?

Nationalist.

There is a break in the recording here when one side ofthe tape ran out but Frank went on to say that Jack Smith had the name "Somersaulting Jack Smith" because at various times he represented several parties but by the time ofthe 1939 election he was a Nationalist.

So that was your first campaign and you supported Bill Scott?

Of course, I'd been involved before in my father's campaigns too. Yes, I supported Bill Scott because I reckoned the Nationalist Party should have endorsed him. They made a mistake in dual endorsing Guy Thomson. Ross McLarty asked me that and that was my first real contact with him. He asked me "why what's wrong with Guy Thomson?" I said "he's entirely the wrong candidate. He is not a popular man. I've got nothing against him personally but he can't possibly win this." I said "Jack Smith will beat him." Which of course happened. It was a humiliating defeat for Guy Thomson really. I think Ross McLarty realised afterwards that what I'd been telling him was quite right. They shouldn't have played with Guy Thomson at all.

That was a funny situation. Was Jack Smith the sitting member?

No. Wasn't that when they defeated Ike Doust?

I don't know. Ike Doust was the sitting Labor member was he?

Well he was an independent but he always voted with the Labor Party. Actually, I'm not sure I think perhaps Jack Smith was the sitting member then. We'll have to look at the Handbook again.

We've just sorted out that Jack Smith in fact defeated your father in 1921. What would Jack Smith have been running as then?

I think as Nationalist.

At one point he did change parties didn't he? He was known as "Somersaulting Jack" I seem to remember.

He tried all sorts of ways of getting into Parliament.

And then he was defeated by Ike Doust in 193 6?

That's right.

Then in 1939 he won the seat back again. Obviously, that's the election we're talking about when the Nationalists endorsed two candidates. Then he himself was defeated eventually in 1943 by Ernie Hoar. We might tallc about Ernie Hoar in a minute because he was, I think, a guy who made quite a contribution in the south-west too. We're talking about Ross McLarty anyway. So that was the first time you met Ross, in 1939, was it?

Yes that was my first real contact with him.

By the time you went into Parliament yourself in 1955 Ross McLarty was the Leader of the Opposition. He was never Premier again after that. He was eventually succeeded by David Brand wasn't he? Yes, Ross had a crook heart. He died not very long after, you know. He sat in the house but he wasn't a very well man. He was succeeded by Dave Brand. Dave Brand of course was the first Liberal member elected to the State Parliament. You knew that didn't you?

Yes I remember Dave Brand himself telling me about that. We might leave talking about Dave until the next session because I'm sure that you, like me, have very fond memories of Sir David Brand. I think we might leave that to a session on it's own. We'll talk a bit more about people like Ernie Hoar and Bert Hawke. They were both opponents but both were people who left something of a mark on the State. Ernie Hoar represented our area in the south-west for a time with some distinction.

It was still Nelson in those days which was Bridgetown and Manjimup. Although he was Labor he was quite a good man, Ernie Hoar, and did a lot for his district.

He ended up as Agent General in London didn't he?

Yes.

Is he still alive?

I don't know the answer to that. I rather doubt it.

He'd be very old ifhe was wouldn't he.

He made quite a contribution. He was a well liked man.

Actually, the Labor Party have been fairly fortunate in that respect in that Wanen area. In my memory they've had two very highly respected members, Ernie Hoar and in more recent years Dave Evans who in fact captured the vote of not only the Labor voters but half the Liberals as well!

That's right. A lot of the Liberals wouldn't have turned Ernie Hoar down any more than they would Dave Evans either.

In the election that's about to take place (we're talking in January 1989 and there's an election due on Februmy the 4th -DfV) there's every likelihood that thatManjimup-Pemberton area will come back to being a Liberal seat for the first time in many, many years.

It's quite on the cards. It's very hard to say. I don't know that district well enough now. The Margaret River and other areas used to be such solid Liberal but not so much now I think.

Is Margaret River in the new seat ofWanen is it?

I think so.

Certainly Bridgetown is. It's now much more like the old seat ofNelson really.

I don't really agree with their present redistribution very much. I think it's taking too much from the country. I think it's going to reach the stage where the city will completely out-vote the country altogether. And I don't think that's a desirable thing. What's called a gerrymander is beneficial to some extent. You've got to keep a balance between country and city. Otherwise you get what you're fast getting in the Federal field. It's fast getting to the stage where Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne can out-vote the rest of Australia. That, I think, is a ridiculous situation.

It's quite interesting that, at the moment, the Federal Government is putting together this proposed Aboriginal Parliament and it involves a genymander on a scale that has never been attempted in the wider political scene and it's quite amusing that these people who are such champions of one man- one vote- one value find it necessary to depart totally from that in this proposal for aboriginal people. Probably it's been departed from for quite good reasons, although I haven't been into it, but it is interesting that they are not prepared to concede those same reasons in the wider political field.

Well it doesn't suit them politically. That's the whole truth of the matter. Few people will give unbiased views on those sort ofthings.

Just getting back again to some of the personalities that I know you remember quite well. Another Labor man that I know you served in Parliament with yourself and who is, I think, regarded as one of the fairly outstanding West Australian Labor men was Frank Wise who was Premier before you went into Parliament. But you sat in the Legislative Council with him weren't you?

Yes, he was a member of the Legislative Council. He was elected not long after I was elected.

I think he'd been Administrator of the Northern Territory hadn't he?

Yes he had, for some years, been Administrator of the Northern Territory. He was a very capable man, Frank Wise. A very knowledgeable man too.

I met him a couple of times at Pastoralists and Graziers meetings and he obviously enjoyed the same degree of respect and support up in that Camarvon pastoral area that say Dave Evans and Ernie Hoar enjoyed in the south-west. They were Labor men but they were respected by everybody.

Yes I found that when I was working in the Kimberley for Alan Ridge. A lot of people I called on mentioned Frank Wise. You know "Oh well, he's a different category to ordinary Labor men". He was very well respected. Frank Wise was one of those people that otherwise Liberal voters would have voted for

Yes, I was conscious of this at pastoralists meetings where he was in attendance. They had a very high opinion of him.

Yes they wouldn't desert him.

I always remember with some respect the way in which he sought me out while I was there and told me his his high opinion of you and how pleased he was that you were going on a parliamentary trip not very long afterwards. I don't know whether I ever even told you that. He took some trouble to find me and tell me that. I thought more of him for it. I suppose that's the sort of small thing that separates people who are universally popular from those that are not. They do those small things. I've always remembered that.

Yes that's right. They're not so completely biased in their thinking. They are more open-minded and I think it's no harm to be a bit open-minded. I've always been a bit that way myself. Everything that Labor does is not wrong. In other words they do some good things as well as some bad things.

The other one that I think you would remember, probably not on a personal level to the same extent, would be Bert Hawke who was Premier ofWestem Australia for six years and the uncle of the present Prime Minister.

Yes I got to know Bert Hawke before I was in Parliament when I was on the Roads Board in Bridgetown. We had a couple of deputations to him. He was Minister for Works at the time. Yes, I got on quite well with Bert Hawke when he was Premier and I was a new member. Not that I thought a great deal of him as a Premier. I thought his government ... well, we used to refer to them as a "mark time government" which is exactly what they were; not pushing along. There were a lot of the things that could have been pushed along particularly with the iron ore. Their answer to the iron ore business was they wanted to send Koolynobbing iron down to Manjimup and build a charcoal iron industry at Manjimup which was nonsense really.

It would have the conservationists recoiling in horror these days, wouldn't it, had it succeeded? Yes that was the depth of their thinking you know. They just didn't grasp what was there like Brand did. He could see what was there to be developed and he set about doing it.

I seem to remember, as I was becoming a bit politically involved myself by the mid-50s, that they really only won that 1956 election almost as a fluke didn't they? I think the Liberals, had in fact won the Bunbury by-election and had the numbers to roll the government and didn't do so. Ross McClarty was something of a gentleman and didn't use the axe as ruthlessly as he might have and the election was delayed and in the meantime the Federal government had brought down a mini budget.

Yes he was advised by the Federal boys to hold his election before the Federal election because they knew that the Federal election would upset the electorate.

Yes I think the Federal government were going to have to do some fairly ruthless things immediately after the election.

Yes they knew they were going to have to do them and they advised McClarty to get his election out of the way which he didn't do. Largely, as you say, because he was a rather gentlemanly fellow.

Yes. In fact it wasn't his election but he had the numbers to force an election which he didn't do.

Yes, he didn't do it, again, because he had a gentlemanly approach. They could have rolled the government at that stage. But I don't know. In the long run I don't know that it does any harm to play it straight. Governments that do that are held in respect.

Yes I think you're right there. He was pretty roundly criticised for it in the party afterwards.

That was a bit like the disaster when they decided to tip Whitlam out. I would have been against that decision. I always thought it was a foolish thing to do. To refuse supply and all that turmoil. I don't think the Federal people have ever really lived that down. I think it doesn't do any harm to play the game a bit straight.

So then in 1955 you entered Parliament yourself in succession to Charlie Henning. I think you. had actually sought endorsement a year or two earlier.

Against Charlie Henning; or in the same field. There are a lot of them and Charlie Henning got it.

Is that what it was. It was a funny situation wasn't it? In those days with there were three members for each seat. This was for a Legislative Council seat. It was voluntary voting and a franchise which was dependent upon you owning or renting property to a very minimal value.

Yes, £17 a year.

So it was a quite different voting system from what we have had in recent years or what we might have in the future, which is another major change. There were three members for the seat. There was Jim Murray. Did you seek endorsement when Jim Murray was endorsed?

No. Jim Murray was up at the same time as me when Henning got the endorsement. Shortly after another member died and they asked me to stand again but I didn't. I had just bought the bulldozer then and I was too involved so I said "No I can't". So Jim Murray stood and Jim Murray got it.

Is that what happened. Graham MacKinnon was also endorsed prior to your endorsement. So the three seats all became vacant about the same time?

Yes. Graham MacKinnon was endorsed before you actually won your seat wasn't he? But didn't enter Parliament until after you did he?

Yes he was endorsed to replace the member who was retiring whoever it was and then Charlie Henning died just after the election. After his own re-election that is. Elections were held every two years then, you see.

And they were elected for six year terms?

Yes, and Charlie Henning having died I stood at the by-election. I was endorsed for the by-election but some people in the party wanted to switch Graham MacKinnon and myself and get MacKinnon into Parliament before me but sense prevailed so I was elected at the by-election and he was elected the following year at the general election.

I seem to remember that the three members who had held those seats for a very long time prior to that were; Mann, Hobart Tuckey and Leslie Craig who was still a member when you entered wasn't he?

Yes it was Leslie Craig who held the seat that MacKinnon was endorsed for because he was retiring.

So you served the remaining five years of Charlie Henning's term. That was the only time you were ever opposed wasn't it? That first election. You served 19 years and at every other election you were unopposed? On several occasions you with the only member of either house that was unopposed. You must have done something right!

I think I was too well-known down in that Warren area.

Ernie Stapleton, I think, was the person that stood against you at that first election and you had given him such hell ofa hiding they never came back to any more.

Labor realised that I knew an awful lot of people that, probably previously, would have voted for Ernie Hoar or for Dave Evans and that sort of thing but would vote for me. That, in my opinion, is largely why they didn't oppose me. They didn't want to give the opportunity ofme being opposed at the same time as their Assembly member was up for election.

Yes, because they were mainly simultaneous elections by then and at that time we were malting quite significant inroads into Warren and they were quite worried that we would win it if you were able to drag a few votes away from their candidate.

Yes. Vic Ferry always reckoned that I would be opposed at the following election and I said "I don't think so. They'll wait for you, Vic, in three years time". The reason was that Vic, because of his daughter, had to leave Warren and move to Perth because she needed attention. (She had a weak spot in a brain arte,y which threatened an aneurism. Eventually, despite greatfears that she would be left severely handicapped, an operation was undertaken which was wholly successful and left her almost unaffected-DW). I said "they will use that, they'll wait for you. They won't stir Warren up with an election. I'll still be unopposed. But they will when you come up because the seat is not safe". He and I were about the only ones who realised that it wasn't safe. People said "Oh, you haven't been opposed for years".

Yes. Of course in 1971,which was the election that I stood at, things were very much against the Liberals and Vic came very close to losing the seat. He held it by some 80 votes.

And we got those in Denmark which had been a new addition to the seat! Vic and I spent weekend after weekend, week after week, down there working. We had called on every farm and every person in the Denmark part of the electorate at least twice. That's where he got the 80 votes that put him in. Yes. Of course, by then the whole voting system had changed. It was compulsory universal voting by then and so it was a different seat altogether.

Yes I got an eight year term. My second term was eight years. It was changed from 10 Provinces in the State, with three members, to 15 Provinces with two members so it was the same number of members in the Council. Somebody had to resolve the method by which some members would advance and some would be retarded to eliminate the third member. Do you see what I mean?

Yes.

And it was decided that it would be done by consideration of those that had obtained the largest majorities at their previous election would be the first into the longer term. So one member had to gain two years and the other had to lose one year to bring it into line because it was also to become three yearly elections instead of two yearly elections. I was the only member to have obtained 100 percent of the vote so I was the first one to get the eight year term.

I well remember that election of course because it was just before Jen and I were married in 1960 and we were waiting to see whether you are going to be opposed that time. That must have been the first election after you were originally elected. I remember being on tenterhooks as to whether you are going to be opposed. The next one was at the end of the eight year term in 1968 when you were again unopposed. You continued then until 1974 until you retired without ever being opposed.

Yes, I was pretty lucky really!

Well I think we might call it a day at that!!

1

INTERVIEW WITH FRANCIS DRAKE WILLMOTT (Years at High (Hale) School 1918-20)

Recorded and Transcribed by son Del Francis Willmott (Years at Hale School 1950-53 ). Recorded in 1992

PREFACE:

Francis Drake (Frank) Willmott was born at Nannup on January 23 rd 1904 and at the time of writing (March 2003) is still living in a nursing home and, although physically quite frail, still in full possession of his faculties and still able to make full use of the reading skills learnt so long ago at High School. He must be one of very few George Street boys still living.

Although Frank was the first Willmott to attend the school his family had connections with it dating from much earlier in its history. Several of his uncles (Hugh, William and Peter (Pierre) Brockman) had been pupils in the 1880s, even though one of them did declare in a letter home that it "should be called Low School not High School"! Even earlier, Frank's Great-grandfather, John Garrett Bussell had acted as headmaster for a short period enabling Bishop Hale to keep his school open. Whether that school was the direct forerunner of High School and Hale School is a matter of debate, of course, but Frank always believed it to be so and indeed has always claimed that his mother and aunt had attended Bishop Hale's School when they went to a school then ( early 1880s) situated in the Cloisters which had by then been vacated by the boys.

An interesting sidelight is that with the exception ofFrank's father FES Willmott, who was educated at Hurstpierpoint College in Sussex, all earlier members of the Willmott family since about 1750 had been educated at Sherborne School in Dorset. A recent Deputy Head of Hale spent a period at this ancient school where three members of the Willmott family became the Wardens of the School ( the equivalent of Chairman of the Board of Governors). This record is yet to be emulated in WA!!!.

When Frank entered Hale his father was a member of the Legislative Assembly of WA and was the leader of the then Country Party and the honorary minister for Lands in the first government of Mr (later Sir James) Mitchell who was also an old Haleian. There were two Country Party Ministers in that Government, the other being CR Baxter MLC, whose sons and grandson also attended the School.

After Frank left school he returned to the family farm at Bridgetown and remained a farmer until he entered Parliament as a Member of the Legislative Council for South-west Province in 1955 when he was elected by a large majority at a by-election. For the next nineteen years he was unopposed at every election. He served as Deputy-Chairman of Committees during his time in the Legislative Council and while in Parliament took a particular interest in the plantation production of timber, an industry then in its infancy. He retired in 1974 and lived in Nedlands, where this interview was recorded, until entering a nursing home in 1998.

He was recently visited at his nursing home by Norman Baxter, an old Haleian and son of CR Baxter and also a contemporary MLC with Frank. Frank was a Liberal while Norman, who had succeeded his own father in his Legislative Council seat, represented the Country Party. Norman Baxter and his father held the same Legislative Council seat for a continuous period of some 40 years.

Frank has always taken a keen interest in Hale School and was one of the speakers in the Parliamentary debate which took place to approve the Government takeover of the Havelock Street site enabling the move to Wembley Downs.

He was followed at Hale by his brother Henry Joseph (Joe), sons Del Francis and Jack Riches, a nephew Joseph Cookworthy (Joby), and grandsons, Gregory Francis and Digby Riches

At the time of writing it is hoped that Frank, now in his 100 th year, will be able to attend Old Boy's day on th March 28 , 2003 2

INTERVIEW

Del Willmott: We started these tapes three years ago but somehow or other we haven't got around to doing any more but we talked before about some of your political memories and also about Bridgetown. We took a walk through Bridgetown as you first remember it. I thought that the couple of things that I'd like to talk to you about now are; first of all some of your recollections about Hale School and then perhaps we might talk a little bit about the family which we haven't really talked about and your memories of some of the people in your family some of whom I, obviously, don't remember and some that I do. Perhaps today ifwe talked about Hale School. You went there, I think, when it was still called High School?

Frank Willmott That's right.

There has been a bit of publicity recently about the school as it was when Matthew Wilson was the Headmaster and you have probably been thinking about it a bit so you may be able to add to what we already know. When did you start at Hale?

1918.

And you finished in?

1920-1 didn't finish the year in 1920. I left at the end of the second term. There were three terms in those days and things were going bad on the farm so my father suggested that I leave. I didn't really realise at the time it was because my brother Sykes had come home from England and he was there and knew nothing about the farm and I think the old man thought if I left school and went home things would be better.

We might talk about some of those things later but I thought we might just try and talk about the school at the moment. So Matthew Wilson was the Head throughout the time you were there was he?

Yes. Ohyes.

And the school then; I think I am right in saying this. It was split between the George Street Boarding House and the Havelock Street school buildings?

Yes. The boarding house was in George Street or Elder Place I think it's called now. Where the Christian Science Church is. You know where that is?

Opposite the Barracks Arch.

Yes. That was the Headmaster's house there ... originally the hospital for the Barracks. The quarters the Headmaster lived in was the hospital for the Barracks. The part where we dined and so on was all very old. Part of the very old buildings.

Built at the same time as the Barracks I suppose?

Yes.

Weren't there stories of underground passages through to the Barracks?

Oh yes. Quite true.

They were there were they? 3

' There was a big trapdoor on the back verandah of the Headmaster's house and that crossed under George Street to the Barracks. But they barred the kids from going down there. When the electricity was put in there were live wires. Some of the wiring was put down there so they barred kids going in there. They used to mess about in there.

Of course what we have to remember is that people not much younger than I would not remember the Barracks. What were they?

Well, they were the original barracks for the soldiers.

Built when? Well, not long after the settlement started I suppose.

That's right. Yes, it was all built by convicts. It was quite a substantial building.

Yes, I remember it but of course younger people today don't.

Yes, I suppose you would remember it. We used to walk up to Havelock Street to the day school through the Barracks and climb the steps up past Parliament House.

That's right. We used to go through what's now the Barracks Arch too.

We didn't go through the arch. Actually we used to go through a little gate that was down towards Hay Street. rd forgotten that gate. We always used to come just straight through the arch when we came down from Hale to town. Obviously, you went up there every day on your way to school.

Yes. Well it was a shorter way to go - right opposite the gate into High School boarding house was the gate into the side of the Barracks.

So that must have been some distance down George Street where you came out of the boarding house. Between St Georges Terrace and Hay Street?

Yes. See, the old original had a brick wall, a high brick wall... eight or nine feet high I suppose ... which separated George Street from the school with all broken glass on the top. To stop people getting over in the early days. That was still there. There was just a little gate that used to let you into the school. When I first went there that would be locked. They gave that away and that wall was all pulled down after.

When I was at school the Church was there and Chippers, the funeral people, were down on the comer of Hay Street in those days

Yes. There was nobody there in my day. That was all part of the school grounds.

I think the whole school had been there at one time, hadn't it?

Oh yes! It was only moved, I think, about 1914.

Yes, I think it was 1914 when those Havelock Street buildings were opened.

Yes, that was before I went there

Yes. When you went there had the War ended?

It was the last year of the War. 4

We'll get back to the school itself in a moment but I remember when I was at school in the early fifties there were boys there whose older brothers and fathers had either fought or died at the Second War but I guess when you were there during the First War that would have been very much the case when casualties were even greater and it was a much smaller community.

Oh yes. Two of the Hester boys were at Hale when their brother was killed. Lance was the one who was killed.

He was killed in that last year of the war was he?

I think it was before that. They never really found out what happened. He went missing but somebody, some years later, told me that he had seen Lance on a machine gun very badly wounded. It was never confirmed.

One of the innumerable ones.

Missing in action, presumed killed.* (I later learnt from Bill Edgm~ the Hale School Archivist, that Lance Hester's body was recovered and photographs ofhis grave were taken during a school visit to the WWI battlefields. He also showed me a photograph ofa School Cadet shooting team ofwhich Lance Hester was a member. They were photographed with the Interschool Rifle Shooting Cup which they had, presumably, won. I was particularly interested in all th is for several reasons. Firstly, although I am not directly related to Lance Hester, Frank Willmott's sister later married his younger brother, Evelyn Hester so the families are connected and both the Willmotts and Hesters were from Bridgetown. The Hesters were in fact one of the first two settler families in that area. Both Evelyn and his son Ted attended Hale as well as a number of other members ofthe Hester family. The other reason was that many years later I captained a Hale Rifle team that won the same cup for the first time in about twenty-jive years. Unf01tunately, rifle shooting is no longer an inter-school sport. I regret this because it used slightly different skills from the other sports played at school and enabled boys like myself who were not particularly successfitl in them to at least excel in another field. -DW)

Yes. It must have been a terrible time. Then of course while you were there you had the Spanish Flu outbreak too didn't you? In 1919. That was brought back by the soldiers coming back from Europe I think, wasn't it?

I suppose so. Yes. I was the first kid in the boarding house to get it. I used to go out to North Perth to Old Poland's to take extra maths. Three of us used to go out there one night a week - I forget what night... Monday, I think ... and on the way back I started to feel crook. I never slept a wink all that night and I reported that I wasn't feeling too good and they gave me a dose of some damned thing - reckoned that would cure me.

Probably castor oil in those days!

No, it was Whitehouse, I think they called it. It was the same effect. I couldn't go to school. They fmished up putting me in the sick room. From there on it just went through the place like a fire. My mother came to the school and nursed me for a few days in the sick room. The sick room was only a three bed room. The whole dormitories were full with kids down, the whole school was down.

Were there any deaths?

No. Luckily not. A couple of very close calls. Arthur Brazier was one who was very close and another fellow, Weame, I think his name was. They were very close. Their parents came and expected them to die but they didn't.

That was a bit lucky because there were a lot of deaths from that epidemic. 5

Oh yes. They got an extra woman in as a nurse. There was the matron, the headmaster's wife was there helping to nurse and they got an extra woman in and she caught it and she died.

Yes. What do you remember about Matthew Wilson? He was something of a legend for many years afterwards. What do you remember about him?

Oh, I think he was a great man in many ways. We really liked him you know. We respected the old boy. He was a good teacher. He taught me English and Mathematics when I first went to Hale- my first year there and I got on very well with him but then I got moved to a different master and that's when I took maths elsewhere because I couldn't understand the fellow I got moved to at all. But Old Matthew Wilson - he knew every boy in that school by name. He was drinking a bit even in those days.

That eventually got him didn't it?

Oh yes. Guy Mitchell... you remember Guy Mitchell don't you?

Yes.

He was often sent down to the Weld Club to bring the old boy home. He never told anybody. He was funny ... very old for his age, old Guy, as a boy at school. They told him to keep quiet but he often used to go down to the Weld Club to bring the old boy home. The boys liked the Head and I remember he used to come and umpire our football sometimes. I remember one day down on the W ACA he was umpiring and the boys were swearing and going on and he called them and he said, "Now,I don't mind coming down here and umpiring your games but I will not do it if you use this sort oflanguage." That was the end of it; if the old boy said that everybody respected him. No more of it you know. He had a wonderful way with boys like that, Old Matthew. He held them in the hollow of his hand.

How many boarders were there in those days?

I don't know. I suppose 40 or 50.

About40?

Yes, I suppose it was about that.

Did any of the other masters live in the boarding house?

Oh yes. The housemaster, Hind. He was a married fellow. He lived in the Headmaster's part of the place while he was there. At the end of the war he left. He was an English fellow. Oxford double blue. He left and went home to England I think. That's when Jack Roydhouse, who was a Major just returned from the war, became the housemaster. He lived with the boys and had a room right amongst the buildings where the boys were, next to the prefects' room. They had a prefects' room.

And what was the food like when you were at boarding school? I remember it as being a subject of debate in my day and I'll bet it was no less so in your day.

I'll never forget the first breakfast that I had at Hale, or High School. Steak! A little bit of steak, just a little bit, and it was the toughest thing I've ever tried to eat in my life. Chew and chew; you couldn't eat it. It was terrible stuff. A country boy who lived on good meat!! And of course that was breakfast. Lunch was a fairly good meal. A bit the same ... you could tell ... its Thursday, we'll get so and so. But the evening meal was bread and jam. Nothing else. Just bread and jam spread; big platters ofit. Oh, they used to say boys come here and they get fat. Yes, they did. From eating bread and jam. That's all they had. 6

Was there rationing on then? Was there rationing during the First World War?

No.

Because when I first went to Hale in 1950, which was five years after the end of the Second World War, there was still rationing. Butter and clothing and a few things like that were still rationed.

Restaurants and places like that it was off. Hotels. If we stayed at a hotel when we used to come up when you were at school there was still some rationing.

With ration tickets?

No. It wasn't like that. It was the meal itself. You couldn't have an entree and a meal. You had soup or the main course or no en tree. Or you could have soup and the en tree. The hotel was only allowed to serve certain meals.

So you didn't have any rationing during the First War so you didn't have any shortages of butter or tea or any of those sorts of things?

No, not in Australia. None of that. Severe rationing in England, of course. We never suffered from any of that.

What sports were played then? Did you play Australian Rules football by then?

Yes. But hadn't played it for long because Evelyn Hester, my brother-in-law, was only a few years before me and he never played Australian Rules. He played soccer. It hadn't been very long at Hale by then. I suppose in Evelyn's day, that's probably before the sports grounds were on Upper Hale Oval in Kings Park. They were still there when you were at school?

Yes. Up there near where the Tennis Club is. Hale School Playing Fields. So you used to go up there after school for your sport?

Yes, that was our sports ground. So there was room there to play Australian Rules I suppose. I think that's probably why. There was only a little area between the school and Hay Street where they had to play, I think, before.

What sorts of games did the boys play after school and that sort of thing? At the boarding house did they have any local games?

Just kicking a football round.

We had a game we used to play at Hale; it must have been a Hale School game. I never heard of anyone else playing it. It was called "Hip". I can't remember just what the rules were now but it involved a lot of running around and shouting and yelling. You didn't have games like that?

No. Well we didn't have much time at the boarding house because we would go straight from the day school to Kings Park to the sports grounds.

Did you have any changing rooms up at Kings Park?

No, we didn't have change rooms. It was in the bush. There was a little shed where they used to keep the gear, like the mats for the cricket pitch.

There was concrete cricket pitch then? 7

They had a turf pitch too but we used to use concrete pitches with mats on for practice very often. We just used to strip off behind that shed and change into cricket gear or football gear or whatever it was.

High School, as it was then wasn't a church school, was it?

No.

But you used to have to go to church I imagine, the same as we did?

Yes, we used to go down to the cathedral. St George's.

You went to St George's Cathedral?

Yes. That was for the Anglicans or Church of England, as it was in those days.

Which most of the boys were?

Yes, but we had a few Roman Catholics and they would go off to their own church. And quite a number of Jews of course. Most of the Jews in Perth went to Hale. I knew a lot of the Jews. Some of the best people I knew were Jews.

Yes there were always quite a number of Jews at Hale. Probably still is. Even though it is now a church school. Did you have any church services at all at the school? Did you have an evening service there on Sundays or anything like that?

No. We had prayers in the morning and for those that wanted it you had Religious Instruction up at St Mary's in West Perth. And of course, some of us used to go up there to get away from school!

Was there a girls' school there in those days? St Mary's?

Yes.

Because in my day we used to go to church at St Mary's and there was a girls' school there.

Oh, the girls' school wasn't there. It was on the other side of Hay Street. The reason I remember that is because old Matthew Wilson's daughter, Claire Wilson, used to go to school there.

St Mary's church and school; the whole lot have gone now of course. There is a little bit of a chapel but the old church there is completely gone. The school has moved out to Karrinyup.

We used to get some religious instruction. I remember the hall that was there. It was sort of raised. We used to get under there and smoke instead of going to religious instruction. You know what kids are; anything to beat the boss.

Who were some of the fellows that you were at school with? A lot of them are now dead of course but there were quite a lot of guys that I remember meeting that you were at school with. What do you remember of them?

The Mitchells. Jim and Guy from Donnybrook.

Guy ended up out at Dinninup, didn't he?

Yes. There were all the Hesters from Bridgetown. They went there. Gough was still there while I was there. The Postmaster's son. Urquhart. He went there. 8

Who was he?

Urquhart? He was the postmaster at Bridgetown.

Yes, but who was the son?

Don - Don Urquhart, but he died not long after leaving school. He got meningitis and died. Maisie Urquhart was his sister. She married Ferguson McLeod. Do you remember Fergie McLeod or ever hear of him? They had Minilya Station.

Yes.

Fergie was a mad bugger. Used to get into punch-ups. I think he had another place somewhere but gave it up. The last time I heard of him was in Perth riding buck jumpers down at White City.

There was one family there with whom the Willmotts had a longer link than just Hale School wasn't there? Didn't you go to school with the Lintons? Tell me about them. They were artists weren't they? They're still a famous artistic family.

Yes. Their father went to school in England with my father. I never knew whether it was the Prep school or Hurstpierpoint. He went to a prep school in Bedford, I think it was. I think it must have been Hurstpierpoint in Sussex. Yes, quite a nice pair of fellows, the Lintons. Jack was running a feed place I think. Yes, Barrow Linton's it was. The other one was James. He was the artist. A silver smith I think.

Yes, I think there is still a daughter of one of them who is a well known artist. In fact there might be several of them. I went to school with the next generation but I wasn't close friends with any of them, but certainly there was at least one Linton at school with me.

Of course, there was old Quinton Stow. I always liked Quin Stow. He was a friendly nice fellow. Never changed. He was always the same fellow.

Yes, he always was and his son Dudley is the same. And the Houses? You went to school with a couple of Houses, didn't you?

Yes. Keith. He was a distant relation of ours. His mother was a Brockman. She died and Dr House married again. Herzel (sp?) was a half brother. Keith was a very nice fellow.

When I think about it, you must have been related to a lot of the people there one way or another. You were at school with several of your Brockman cousins weren't you?

Yes, Frank and Harry. Jack and Bob, Hugh's two sons, had been there. Bob had only left just before I went there. I was very like Bob in those days, so they say. Because of that I copped his nickname. "Skinny". Bob, when he was at school, was a skinny little fellow. Little jockey and after he left school he suddenly grew. He was well over six feet.

I think I only met him once or twice. He was a big man. Jack. He was Jack from W estlawn?

Yes. He was the older one, Jack. They were there just before me. Frank and Harry, Pierre's two boys, were there with me. But I suppose I was related to other boys. Hamersleys and people like that. I didn't even know I was related and only found out after.

It was much the same in my case too. 9

But a lot of the names you hear here in Perth. Dr Seed's two sons, Officers, James. Sir Walter James son, Alec James. Well known names.

Yes and I went to school with a lot of the next generation.

High School as it was and became Hale was the old school of the older families.

Yes, well it is much older than any of the others. I think it is debatable whether Hale School can really track its history back to 1858 but it certainly had connections back to Bishop Hale's School in 1858.

My mother and her sister went to Bishop Hale's School. Three of her brothers were at Bishop Hale's School. The same as the Mitchells. Harry Mitchell from Donnybrook. He was there with Uncle William because when it came to Christmas holidays Harry Mitchell and old William Brockman walked home.

From? Perth to Donnybrook!!!

Yes. They walked. Carried a billy and they walked and when they got to Donnybrook to Mitchell's they would lend Uncle Bill a horse to ride to the Warren.

Then it must have been time to tum around and come back again?

Yes, must have been.

Did they really walk it all or did they cadge a lift in a buggy or something? I suppose it was no more than a bush track in those days?

Yes, I suppose it was just a coach track.

Would they have gone down the Old Coast Road?

No. The inland road. Actually I'm not sure. I think it would have been down the Old Coast Road in those days.

Hard to believe it's changed that much in what really is a pretty short time.

Yes, when I look back on those days the changes that have occurred in Western Australia just in my lifetime are terrific. Well, I have lived almost half the time we've been in Western Australia.

No, you've lived more than half the time.

I suppose I have. Since 1829.

Yes 1829 to 1904. My mental arithmetic isn't too good but its 75 years isn't it?

And I'm 88 so I lived well past half the time and I've seen some big changes.

I suppose in those days you had boys coming down from the North-West and South-East Asia as we did in my day?

Not from South-East Asia .. .I don't remember... but the North-West. They only got home for Christmas in those days. There was no time to get home. There were no aeroplanes, no trains - they could only go up by boat you see. They used to stay down and go home with somebody. 10

I remember even in my day that some of those North-West kids came down very young and they had never been away from home and it must have been a hard experience for them. They would leave home at only seven or eight years old.

It must have been pretty hard on them. I think sometimes they would just stay at school even in the Christmas holidays.

The school then, as we were saying earlier the day school was in Havelock Street but it was less extensive, I think, than the school I went to. Then of course the boarding house was up in Havelock Street by the time I got there. Even when I first went there all the east end of what was the school grounds was just a wilderness. I imagine it was much the same in your day.

Oh yes!

Full of cubby houses and smoking holes.

Yes! There was only a little bit of lawn about the length of the buildings out in the front between the school and Parliament Place. Wilson Street, as it was in those days. They altered the name. There was just a piece oflawn where we used to assemble and do our drill.

Yes. Of course, you had a cadet corps which no doubt you had to be part of I imagine that it was compulsory in those days, imposed by the government, not just the school.

Yes, by the government. In fact they used to send an officer from one of the drill halls to take the cadets once a week at High School while I was there until Jack Roydhouse took over as the housemaster and then- he was a Major at the War- he took it over and he took all the training. It was far better and much more interesting under him. He'd been in the war, of course.

People respond to someone who has actually been there and done it.

Yes, that's right.

In my day.. .I wasn't in the cadets I was in the Air Training Corps, but in the cadets they had an instructor who had been a VC winner. I remember he always got a great deal more respect.

That's right. Jack Roydhouse always had a great deal more respect than any of the others we had. He made the training much more realistic and interesting. We would go up into Kings Park training and he would put on all sorts of exercises.

In those days, the same as in my day, they had the old .303 rifles. Did you use them in cadets or did you have the .31 O?

We never had either.

I suppose they were still using them in Europe.

The .310's were there, locked up in cases, but they never used them. When they had shooting they would borrow some .303 's from Francis Street drill hall. I remember being sent back, two or three of us, with half a dozen rifles each and lumping the damned things. We climbed on a tram with all these rifles and people wondered what it was all about. Thought we were going to raid them or something!

I still find that extraordinary. Even looking back on my own school days; all over Perth there would be kids lumping .303 rifles on to buses, on to the trams and down the street and nobody took much notice. If you appeared in the middle of Perth with a rifle now they'd have the Tactical Response Group down on you and they'd swear that you were about to do some mortal damage. I remember going home after the 11

Interschool shooting, which we had won on that particular occasion, and we decided to go and buy something for the coach and went straight from the Interschool shooting into one of the main jewellers in Perth. I think it was Levinsons or one of them. Mazzuchellis I think it was. And we all had our rifles slung on our shoulders and we went into the jeweller's shop and bought this trophy. And rve often thought since that a group ofboys with rifles going into a jeweller's shop is almost beyond belief today. But there it was ...

Well, you know I'm not at all sure that that sort of thing wasn't good. Kids learnt how to handle firearms and have a respect for them. I'm not at all sure it wasn't a good thing in many ways.

Your brother Joe was, of course, at school with you, wasn't he, and I gather he was a bit of a character

Yes, he had the nickname of "Wowser". Anybody less like a wowser would be pretty hard to find.

I seem to recall there were some quite good stories of some of his doings at school. I don't think he ever made great scholastic progress but he kept a few people entertained.

Yes, he was entertaining people rather than paying attention to lessons. I think we were all a bit like that.

I seem to remember a story about you making off with the exam papers or something. What was that story?

The master ... old E P Clark ... I didn't get on well with him at all, not at all. He threatened me that ifl didn't get, I think it was 85% or something like that in the English exams, he would send me up for the cuts from the Head. Well, that didn't really worry me much but I didn't like being threatened so I thought "Well, I'll find a way round this". So I sneaked up with a couple of my mates early one morning at the weekend - a Saturday morning- and looked through the Masters' Common Room because he used to have his exams typed out. We knew this. Sure enough we found it so we copied down all of the exam paper. I had my exam done before I went into the bloody room. Not a very nice thing but I wanted to beat him. He was very suspicious but he never worked out what had happened. I made a few deliberate mistakes. I didn't get 100% but I ran second in the class. He was amazed. I think he was suspicious that there was something underhand about it all but he couldn't prove it. All the kids in the class - they all knew because Don Smith- he was in the know, damned fool. Clark was writing out the exam on the board before the exam started and some of the kids were hanging round. He was writing out and leaving the key words blank to fill in, you see. Don Smith gets round and starts putting the words in. Oh my God - I could have killed him! You damned fool, you 'II give it away in a minute. But after he'd done just a couple of words he gave it away. Nothing that I was very proud of but there it is. It doesn't do to threaten kids with dire results if they don't get certain marks in the exam.

Just to change the subject. When you were at school your father was a Member ofParliament, wasn't he? All the time you were at school? And a minister for most of it, I think he would have been.

Yes. He'd been Minister for Lands. He'd been in Henry Lefroy's government before I went to school. He was in the Mitchell government by the time I got to school. He was Minister for Lands then. Or Honorary minister handling lands. They worked on honorary ministers. They only had about five ministers. They headed all portfolios.

So I suppose you used to see a bit of him because in those days really Parliament House was between the boarding house and the day school.

Yes, often used to see him. Occasionally he would be outside. It's altered now but there used to be steps running up outside parliament. Wooden steps running up to the galleries.

Yes, I remember those. 12

And he'd be outside there talking when we walked up and down sometimes.

Yes, I remember walking up past the, in those days, uncompleted Parliament House, past those outside stairs.

Yes, it hadn't been altered from the time I was at school to when you were. In fact it never got altered until I was in Parliament myself.

And you also had a home in Perth at that time didn't you?

Oh yes. Had a place in Claremont. After the first term my brother Joe and I would go home every Sunday morning.

That place was called "Karoonda" wasn't it? It was afterwards owned by my mother's aunt.

Yes.

It has really remained in the family one way or another until quite recently. A long association with the family because it then belonged to my wife's aunt, (Mum's cousin) and my wife, Jen, was actually married from there.

Was she married from there?

Yes, when we got married Jen got dressed there. And, of course you and Mum were married from there too. It was a long association. We were there quite recently. It was sold again. Its been very comprehensively altered now. So, your father's offices were where? Down in the old Treasury Buildings? What was originally the old Post office, wasn't it?

Yes. The front part ofit was the Post Office. The Treasury Buildings were all there. Most of the Government ministerial offices were in that building.

I think it's still mainly the Lands Department there. I think they're now on the point of moving out so what will happen there remains to be seen. A new Council House in the future? I think there is some plan to demolish that monstrosity of a Council House and move the Council to what was the old Treasury Building. (That didn't happen. It was decide to restore the building at great cost as it was considered to have heritage value as a good example ofthat period's architecture. Perhaps, that was the right decision.-DW)

Is that what they're talking of doing?

Yes, I think so. But I remember you taking me through there once when you were in Parliament and showing me the office that your father had. It hadn't changed much I think.

It was pretty well the same in my father's day as when you were at school.

Who were some of the masters there? What do you remember about them? At High School in those days.?

I didn't get to know the masters very well. As a boarder, you see, you only spent school hours there. At lunch time you had to walk back to the boarding house and get your lunch and then walk back to the day school. There were a lot of day boys you never got to know to any extent unless they happened to be in the same form as yourself. Some of them used to come to the sports ground but for other fellows catching trains and that sort of thing it wasn't easy. There was a lot of that you see. Any fellow that lived in Subiaco or anywhere like that had to catch a train. From Claremont, Fremantie, Armidale, they'd all come in on trains. They had to catch trains. To South Perth they had to catch ferries so they didn't appear on the sports ground very much. 13

What about the masters? Who were they?

Well, the masters I knew were; the old Head, the deputy head; old "Fuzzy" Rankin, and one of the McLarty's. He was a brother of Ross McLarty's father. And then there was another one. McIntosh and old Newberry, of course. He was there for many, many years. He was still there when you were there was he?

He wasn't teaching but he used to come back to school when I was at school. I remember old 'Dill" Newberry.

And then there were a couple of younger ones. Gordon... ! can't remember his name now. "Gordy", we used to call him. He'd been at school with some of the older fellows who were there when I was there so he went through a poor time as a master. Hardly fair on him to send him back with fellows he'd been at school with. But they were mostly fairly old. You seem the war had taken all the young men away. The teaching wasn't all that good. Oh! One other of course, was one ofmy favourite teachers, Jerry Poland. He used to teach commercial work. I got on so well with him that I took extra maths from him. That's where I learnt most of the maths I fmally did learn. After the first year, when the Head, Matt Wilson, took me for mathematics. I got on all right with him, but after that I couldn't learn from Paterson Clark. I couldn't learn from him at all. I just couldn't get on with him at all so I took extra maths from Jerry Poland. He had a way of grinding knowledge into you somehow.

There was one teacher who was still there when I went there and that was old Miss Green. She would have been young Miss Green then.

Yes, but I didn't have anything to do with her. She taught the younger kids.

Yes, she did when I was at school. I think she was the only one left by that time.

There was another fellow that used to take French. He was a permanent teacher. What was his name? Colle' de Bois (sp?). I never had anything to do with him because I didn't take French. I only took it for one term, I think. Got caned regularly then because the Head was in Adelaide. He went to Adelaide over the Christmas holidays and for some reason he couldn't get back for the first two or three weeks of term and I'd told him that I wasn't going to take French. "Oh", he said, "well that's all right, take your extra mathematics." The deputy head, Fuzzy Rankin, said, "You're taking French," because I was in his French class. I was going to old Jerry Poland to take extra maths. Old Fuzzy Rankin caned me regularly every morning for not attending French, until the Head got back and I complained to him and he said, "That's all right. You're not taking French." I didn't appreciate getting caned while I'd made arrangements with the Head and the deputy head wouldn't have a bar of it.

They were a bit freer with the cane in those days. Even in my day they were still pretty free with it

I think they still do cane at Hale, don't they?

Very occasionally I think. It's pretty rare.

Anyway, its not banned like it is in the State schools. I don't know how much they do now but some of the fellows I went to school with; they would be completely lawless without the cane, you know. Today they wouldn't be able to cane them.

Of course, Perth itself in those days was very different from what it is today. It wasn't far from there to where there was a China Town in those days wasn't there? Not far from where the boarding house was? 14

Yes. The other side of Hay Street was what we used to call "Chows' Alley". It's the next street towards Perth, just a little short street from George Street.

I think it's probably gone now.

Oh yes. Those little old houses are all gone now.

It's where the freeway is now probably or somewhere just there.

No, no. It's on the Perth side of the freeway. Now it's just other big buildings. Of course, there was a lot of vacant land in there then.

So there was quite a Chinese community there then?

Yes. We used to be able to look over the back fence and straight down "Chows' Alley". You'd see the Chinese going down there, perhaps to smoke opium. I think they mostly went to gamble because I remember my father telling me a funny story. He had to sit on the bench when some of these Chinese had been pulled up for gambling. Dunno what the game was, but it was illegal. Anyway, my father, sitting on the bench, tried to get out of them what game they were playing. "Dominoes". Dominoes, that was the only thing they'd admit to playing. (Frank's father was also a JP.-D ff-?

A lot ofitalians still play 'dominoes' that way.

The only game they understood they reckoned- dominoes. Not fan-tan or some other Chinese game they played. They were pretty cunning old chaps, some of those old Chinamen.

Of course there were Chinese market gardens weren't there, along what is now Langley Park?

Oh yes. Between the back of the "White House", Johnston's, and the river was all market gardens. All Langley Park split up into various market gardens.

So it must have been not long after that it became Perth's first airport there. Was that while you were at school?

Yes, I remember planes landing there while I was at school. Just after the war in 1919, I suppose it was that the first ones came out here.

Is that when Norman Brearley first started his service to the North-West was it?

That's right. I don't know ifhe was landing there with his first service. I'm not sure about that.

I think that's where the first service took off from.

Yes, I think it was. I remember planes landing there in the early days, Brearley flying in there.

I suppose that there were trams in the middle of Perth then?

All trams, yes.

And Fremantle had trams too?

Yes. There were no trams in Claremont. They hadn't reached there when I was at school. They were laid down just after I left school. Trams right down through Claremont and they were to link up with ones from the other side of the river. The Perth trams and the Fremantle trams, you know. Canning Highway had trams all down it. But the motor buses took over. It was never really 15 completed. Those trams from Claremont were never used very much, I don't think. I'd left school then but they went out of fashion. It was privatised then. They had taxi cars before they bad any buses. Just ordinary cars running services from the Terrace.

Then the parlour cars came in some years after that but that would have been well after you left school.

Yes. They were all private in those days.

And Fremantle. Were there still sailing ships coming in there in those days. There would have been odd ones I suppose?

I don't remember seeing sailing ships there but I remember seeing them in Bunbury. I suppose there was the odd one or two but I think by the time I was at school they had pretty well cut out because it was a few years before that that I remember seeing sailing ships in Bunbury. I don't think there could have been too many coming into Fremantle after I went to school. But I think probably the war cut them out. I doubt if there were any sailing ships during the war to any extent.

Did people go to Rottnest in those days? Was there a holiday resort there?

Yes, but not very big. They bad a ferry going there and a few old private boats used to go there but it wasn't a big trade like it is now.

Was there anything at Scarborough then?

No, nothing much.

You could get there, could you?

Yes, Scarborough and City Beach were in the sticks then.

Wasn't it one of those places where you went over a plank road to get to it? Didn't it have a plank road through the sand hills to get to it?

No, that was Yancbep. I've never been to Yancbep to this day. A lot of it was blocks. Round blocks I think; just sunk into the sand. It was pure sand otherwise you just couldn't get out there. They tried to build Yancbep up in those days.

Yes, it was sort of the northern equivalent ofYallingup. A government holiday resort sort of place.

Yes, that's right. It never went. I don't think it has much to this day.

No, not like that.

It never seemed to take on to the extent that they expected it to.

Where did the City end to the north then? Mount Lawley, was that about the end of it?

Yes, Mount Lawley, North Perth.

Just bush beyond that?

Well, scattered housing and bits of farms and that sort of thing.

Of course, there was no Narrows Bridge then and Mill Point Road and that area was long way, even in my day. If you wanted to go out there you had to go out and round over the Causeway and it was a long way. 16

Yes, well I'd have said mostly if you wanted to go you went by ferry. The ferries were running all the time.

Did the ferries only run across the river then or was there a ferry service further down the river?

Oh yes. They had several ferry services. To Applecross and also to Coode Street.

To Point Walter, or somewhere down there?

Yes. That wasn't as heavily used. That was serviced more from Freman tie. The old 'Val' boats. The "Valhalla" and others ran services. Of course the old "Duchess" ran straight across to Mends Street. The old paddle steamer. Paddles either side.

It was actually a paddle boat in those days?

Oh yes. A double ended paddle boat. They just reversed the engines. They never turned it around. I went across on the old "Duchess" a few times.

Like even when I was at school you no doubt played right down through the city. During the weekends if you got out of bounds you'd run right down through the city no doubt.

Weren't supposed to.

But you did! Same as we did.

Yes we did. Not that there was much mischief you could get into in the city. It was really a country town

What was the biggest building in the city then?

I suppose the AMP.

The old AMP building on the comer of St Georges Terrace and William Street? Was that the very elegant building built of Donnybrook stone?

Yes.

That's something that most people can't remember and they wouldn't be able to picture the old Terrace as it was. That building and the old Bank ofNew South Wales and others.

They would have been worth preserving instead of some of the things they're kicking up to preserve now. Buildings that were really worth preserving didn't get preserved. Still, some people like old things, some people don't. And if you preserve the building you don't know what's going to happen even then.

King's Park was, I suppose, mostly just bush in those days?

Yes. Where the present restaurant is there were tea rooms.

I suppose the War Memorial wasn't built then. That would have been built after that.

Oh yes. That was after the First World War. There were other war memorials from previous wars.

The Boer War Memorial was there by then was it? 17

Yes, and a lot of old guns. They've all disappeared now. Yes it was quite a different place in those days. It had the roads through Kings Park but they were all gravel.

Getting back to school, what subjects did you take?

English, Geography, History, Mathematics and Commercial Bookkeeping.

Did you study Latin at school?

No. I never studied Latin at all. lfl'd gone there earlier I probably would have had to but I was over fourteen when I went there and I had never done any Latin so I dodged that.

They still taught it there then? They still taught it while I was at school too.

They don't now?

I think St Hilda's is the only school in Australia that's still teaching Latin.

Well I suppose it's out of date. There are so many other things to learn these days without learning things that are not in use.

I suppose most of your school books were English. The geography and history you learnt was, I suppose, mostly English; because ours was! We learnt the fishing ports of England and the coal towns of England. I knew more about the Pennines than I did about the Great Dividing Range. It all seems a bit strange now looking back, but that's the way the world was then.

Yes, well they weren't far removed from the first settlers you see. When I was at school some of the first settlers must have still been alive.

Yes, or certainly not long gone. And like us most of your text books were probably English. In fact I used some of the same text books that you had used. The Oxford Readers and others.

The Oxford Readers and the Temple Readers.

Yes we had them still when I went to school. Not at Hale but at the State school. And Hall and Stevens Geometry. I think they were the same books you had used.

Yes, I suppose they've all changed now. I don't think teaching had changed a great deal from the time I went to school to when you went.

No, I don't think it had. Western Australia hadn't changed a great deal. It's changed a lot now. One of the things you notice when you look at pictures of Perth of that era is the huge numbers oflines, telephone lines and power lines in the streets, that are gone. Enormous poles with cross bars. Trams were served by overhead wires too. That's changed since those days. How did you used to get up to school from Bridgetown?

On the train.

The train ran all the way to Bridgetown then?

Yes, and on to Manjimup. I remember going to watch the pile drivers working on the first railway bridge over the Blackwood in Bridgetown. It was only completed about 1910 or 1911.

How long did it take to get from Perth to Bridgetown or vice versa? 18

Well they never ran just passenger trains. As far as Bunbury they were mixed goods so they stopped at almost every siding. We used to leave Bridgetown at about 8:30 in the morning and get into Perth about6:30 in the evening.

That was better than walking!

Just a bit better. It was a slow trip though.

DW. Well, I think rm about out of questions. My brain has stopped working! Tape 1 Side A Tuesday, 6th March, 2001.

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number one in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing th Home, Mount Lawley. Tape One is being recorded at Sandstrom on Tuesday, March 6 , 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott' s grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

CHILDHOOD MEMORIES

JF: I wonder if you can tell me what's the very earliest thing you can remember ?

FW: Well I think it was at Applewood, my home in Bridgetown, early on. It would be at the age of about 5 I suppose, when I first started to have memories of the place but my memories at that time are pretty vague. It wasn't until my parents returned from a trip to England ... during that time I stayed with my grandmother in Busselton for about 7 or 8 months I suppose it would be and the time there. My grandmother was a very religious minded person and she, to my amazement, got me interested by reading me stories and when my parents came back, they said "Good gracious! You've turned into a religious boy." I said "yes," ... they said I'll soon forget that when I get home.

And can you remember some of the things that interested you at that age. What were some of the things she read you?

A book by the name of "Line Upon Line" which is in story form, the Old Testament. And then "Peep of Day" which is the same thing in the New Testament. And that started me on what you can call my religious background. Which very soon got forgotten when I got back to Bridgetown. I started going to a State School then. (Frank's mother, my grandmother, as well as my mother's mother, used to read to my brother and me.from these same books some.forty years later when we were small children. Indeed such small knowledge ofthe Bible that I.have comes largely from these readings. Frank states later in these interviews that both his parents had little time for religion. That is not my memmy ofhis mother but I was only ten when she died.­ DW)

So you would have been about what age when you were with your grandmother?

Seven. I was seven and my younger brother was five.

Were you both with your grandmother?

Yes. And she used to get me out with her buggy driving her around. She trusted me to drive her, picking up what she referred to as "farmer's gold" which was all the cow pats off the street for her garden.

And there were quite a few cowpats on the street in Busselton in those days?

Yes, they all ran their cattle on the streets.

So; going back to the buggy then, you could drive the buggy then even though you Wf:re only aged seven?

Yes. She started me, to my amazement too, she never interfered with me, she said you drive the buggy and she just left it to me. And I remember one time nearly pitching the thing head over kettle. Drove it into a hole I didn't see and whoa - nearly turned the thing over. But she took it all quite calmly.

Was it a one horse buggy?

Yes.

For the grandchildren and great grandchildren who may be listening, would you like to describe what a buggy looks like? Because they won't have seen one.

Well there are various types of buggies. Some with a pole and two horses, others with a shaft and one horse. This particular one was with shafts and just one horse. A four wheeled vehicle, nothing much about it. It was just a four wheeled vehicle that you drove about the place in.

And did it have some sort of seating?

Yes. Oh yes. Two seats. It was a four people seater. The driver at the front and a person alongside him and then another seat at the back of that for other passengers.

And were they comfortable seats?

Oh yes, padded. Quite comfortable.

What about getting up into it because the wheels were quite high I suppose?

Yes it had steps. You walked up a couple of steps to get into it.

And you managed that alright at age seven?

Yes, I was very confident!

Who harnessed the horse? Did your grandmother do that?

No! I used to have to go and catch it and harness it. I had boxes to put the collar on. I had to do the whole thing.

And do you remember anything about the horse. Its name, its temperament?

Yes, his name was Lunatic and I didn't find out for a long time ... l'd just known him as Lunatic. Then a girl cousin said to me "Do you know how he got his name." I said "I've often wondered." · "The fellow who broke him in was a lunatic. That's how he got his name."

Did he live up to it? Did he behave stupidly?

No he was a very easy to handle horse. He certainly did not live up to his name.

And so when you went around the streets picking up the cow pats, were you putting that into something?

Into bags.

And I suppose the buggy had some sort of tray?

Yes. It had a floor in between the two seats where you could stack the bags.

That was a good form of transport? Yes.

Did you ever go for any long trips in that buggy?

No I don't remember ever going for long trips. We only used it in and out of town. The town was only a mile away.

Had you been to Busselton before that time you stayed?

Yes. One of my earliest memories is Busselton. And it's continued all my life.

You weren't actually born there were you?

No I was born at Nannup. And I was nine months old when I left Nannup. My father had bought this place at Bridgetown and at nine months old I transferred there.

You were telling me about your grandmother. Who was she?

She was Capel Bussel, the oldest daughter of John Garrett Bussell. He never had any sons unfortunately. The daughters all married and had good families and they were very fine people.

And who was your grandfather?

Edward Brockman from Warren House.

Was he there at that time, when you stayed?

No, he had died. He died just before I went to Busselton.

Do you have any memories of him?

No, I don't think I ever saw him. I have no memories of him at all.

So your grandmother was a nice person to stay with?

Yes, and her unmarried daughter she had with her, she was a really lovely person? She'd do anything for you.

What was her name?

Isabel Brockman.

And apart from reading you stories and going out in the buggy, what other things do you remember doing while you were with her?

All sorts of things really. She always seemed to be able to fmd work - I can hear her now saying "Sa tan finds some mischief still for idle hands to do, so I'm going to keep you occupied". And she lived up to it too.

So how long were you with her?

About seven months I suppose. No wait a minute ... no ... because I was organised to go to her and she had a stroke within days or a few weeks before we were to go and the parents were off to England so I stayed with another great-aunt of mine at "Cattle Chosen".

That's also a Bussell property isn't it? "Cattle Chosen"? Yes. It's rather peculiar how it got its name. John Garrett started off in Augusta and they were practically starving in karri country. Imagine trying to develop karri country in those days. So he set off on an exploration trip on foot and they travelled all the time north and a cow that had got lost with its calf, that's where they found her. On this property. It's on the Vasse River. Only about a mile out of the present town ofBusselton.

So he decided to apply for that. Did he get some sort of a grant?

I suppose he did in the first place. Yes he must have. He brought up quite a large family out there, but all daughters. He never had a son. Name of Bussell sort of dropped out from his side of the family. (Recent research has revealed that John and Charlotte Bussell did have one son, Horatio Peter, who died as a baby. He was described as "smothering". It was probably what is today known as a "cot death"­ DW)

Grandparents are often very good at giving treats to children as far as food and that sort of thing. Were you fed well?

Yes. Her daughter was a very good cook. Like my mother and her sisters. They were all good cooks, good housekeepers.

Can you remember some of the nice things that you ate while you were there?

Oh goodness. You name it, I ate it! A bit like that.

I'm thinking of these great-grandchildren again. They probably don't know some of the things that used to be eaten when you were a kid.

I suppose that would be right, I'd never even thought ofit.

For example, were things like lamingtons known then?

No. Never ate a lamington. In those days it was mostly plain good food. Always well fed but nothing very elaborate about it.

So a typical meal would consist of what?

Meat. Lamb or beef or fish. Because they were living within half a mile of the sea so they used to like fish. I learned to do fishing at a very early age and I never lost the art.

Did you fish from the beach atBusselton?

Yes. The jetty only about a mile. Cos the old jetty in Busselton was a long jetty; a mile and a quarter and I used to fish off the jetty later on.

So this time when you were with your grandmother for that little holiday, were you fishing on that occasion?

No. I was bit too young to fish then.

So did you do jobs around the house?

Yes, gardening. She had quite an extensive garden and I spent a lot ofmy time working in that garden. And you developed a liking for gardening?

No, not particularly, except for things you eat. Vegetable garden, yes. That was the only garden I could be bothered with. (The grandchildren well remember Grampie's extensive vegetable garden at his home in Ned lands which he continued to tend almost until he entered the Nursing Home in about 1999.-DW)

So when it came to going back home, were you pleased to go back home or sad?

No pleased. I loved Bridgetown in those days. It was my home and all my early memories were of Bridgetown.

So let's talk about your home then at Bridgetown. Can you describe to me what it was like?

Well at the start it was only a small property, 200 acres, but there was very little clearing. I suppose, about 10 acres would be the clearing done. But my father set to work. We had an old retainer who came from Nannup with them, to stay for a fortnight to see them into their home. And he stayed there for nine years. He was a great worker, well known worker. Higgins, Johnny Higgins. And after he left us, he stayed for a while in Nannup with his brother but he finally got a job with Mrs Cookworthy at "Sandilands" in Busselton and he stayed there for the rest of his life. (Mrs Cookworthy was the older half-sister ofFrank's grandmother, Capel. Charlotte Bussell had been a widow with three children when she married John Bussell. After their marriage they had to lddnap the children jiwn the Plymouth Brethren, who had somehow achieved some control ofthem. They were smuggled on board the ship which was well into the Bay ofBiscay before their departure was discovered. Mrs Frances Cookworthy was one of these children. Capel was the oldest of the Bussell children and was the first child baptized at the historic St Mary's church in Busse/ton. "Sandi/ands" is one ofthe historic Bussell properties in Busse/ton, having been built originally by Charles Bussell, brother ofJohn. He had no descendants and the old home still remains in the ownership ofthe Busse/ton branch ofthe Willmottfamily-DW)

So when you first went to Bridgetown, was there a house on that property or had you to build one?

No there were two houses. Well a cottage at the bottom of the hill. It was two places (farms-DW) that had been knocked into one. Our own house was on the top of a high hill and at the bottom of the hill were the yards and a stable, that sort of thing. You had to walk down this steep hill and walk back up for breakfast if you were working horses as we were mostly. You'd feed them early then walk down again nine o'clock at night or around about then to give them their final feed. It kept me pretty busy, that hill. It taught me to remember things because my father said to me, if you left something down there, you'll go straight back and get it. Ifl failed to bring something... "You go straight back and get it". It trained me pretty well to remember things. (My youngfamily lived in the old home at "Applewood"forseveralyears in the early 1960's. The hill was indeed a steep one and the road to the house often became impassable in wet weather even then. The house is no longer standing. The dining room chimney is all that is left.-DW)

So where was the property in relation to Bridgetown's township?

It was only a little over a mile. It would be north-west.

So that would put it out along the road towards Perth would it?

You started off that way. In the early days we used to use that road to go in through our neighbour's property. But the property that was adjoining us on either side belonged to this neighbour and he sold it to my father. Both sides. It practically surrounded us you see. So we'd got an extensive property by the time we'd finished- close on 1000 acres. (Frank started to say that a new road was put in giving accessfiwn the Peninsular Road. Willmott Road as it is officially called is now closed to all intents and pu,poses although the reserve still exists. It will probably be reopened when the land, which lies on the outsldrts ofBridgetown, is subdivided as it almost certainly will be in the future. For the present (2008) the entire "Applewood" property is planted with · bluegums. The wonde,ful views from several high points including the house are no longer available.-DW)

So when you first went there you only had about ten acres cleared. So what were you producing to make a living?

Mainly potatoes. We grew a lot of potatoes in the early days and milked a few cows. That was about the extent of it.

And would you sell the produce locally in Bridgetown or would it have to go further afield?

No in the early days we sold it locally. Potatoes locally. The storekeepers took them and the dairy produce we used to sell to various people in the town. I remember driving around in a sulky delivering it.

Let's pick up on the dairy produce. So you made dairy produce yourselves at home?

Yes. We made our butter and that sort of thing yes.

So would you like to explain, for the sake of your great grandchildren, how you went about making butter?

It's quite simple to make butter. Because all you have to do is put it in the churn but you don't use fresh cream, it's got to be seasoned. Then you just put it in the chum, turned it in the chum until you heard the splash and that was the buttermilk. You'd hear the splash of the buttermilk and then you handled it by hand from then. My mother ran a dairy in Busselton for my grandfather in her earlier days and they had a horse and they used to chum the butter by horse works and this horse knew so well... an old mare ... soon as she heard the buttermilk splash, she'd stop. (That was at "Westlawn" a Brockman property on theoutsldrts ofBusse/ton on theBunbury road. I think all Frank's references to a horse works relate to "West/awn" as I have never heard ofone at "Applewood ". Stationmy engines became available around the time ofthe move there and there were several old ones lying around in my childhood which must have dated back to that era. Frank's father was always quick to adopt new technology including one ofthe very early electric light plants, as well as one of the first Ford Ts and one of the first tractors-a small Cletrac. It is interesting that among the extensive collection ofpapers and correspondence of the Willmott family in Dorset in England in the late eighteenth centmy there are several references to a horse works being installed to overcome a chronic shortage of water to drive the silk mills owned by thefamily.-DW)

That's interesting. So the horse was actually walking around and around somewhere?

Yes.

And that was connected to some sort of pulley system?

Yes, there was a gear in the centre of this thing they walk around and there was a shaft going out from it and that went into a little chaff cutter or whatever. There were quite a few other machines they worked by it too.

It must have been a pretty big chum for making butter then.

Yes. I don't remember that. It was before my time. But yes, a horse works churn.

How many gallons of cream would you put in to that to start?

Oh I suppose twenty gallons. Something like that. So contrast that with your little chum at home and how much would that take?

Oh the first one we had was a little thing, the most it would take would be a gallon I suppose. That developed into a bit bigger but it was only about five gallons, would be as much as it would hold.

And what were they made of, the chums?

First little one was glass with a screw top on it. The next one was wooden.

And the motor force for that was human I suppose.

Yes, it had a handle. You turned the beaters inside.

So thinking of that original glass one which took about a gallon of cream, how much butter would come out of that?

About five or six pounds.

And what was the hand work after you'd finished churning it? What did you have to do with the solids that came out of the churn?

You had to work it by hand and roll it out a couple of times until you'd got all the moisture out of it and then you'd pat it in to pounds, then you'd wrap it in wrapped pounds.

And did you have some sort of hand tool to pat it with?

Yes, two butter pats.

What would a child know about today, that you could say; "well a butterpat was like that"?

It was just a thing like a large hand with a handle sticking out the bottom. You had two of those.

You worked one each side of the butter until you got it shaped?

Yes, you'd take out what you reckoned was a pound and put it on the scale and take off until you've got your pound, then you'd pat it up into a pat of butter.

And when you wrapped it, did you have labelled wrappers?

No, just ordinary butter paper.

So you had quite a big lot of customers around Bridgetown who would buy your butter?

Yes. I used to have to make it when my mother and my sister were away. I used to make the butter and deliver it.

About how many customers do you think you had?

Oh not very many, about six or seven.

And what would a pound of butter be worth in those days?

About one and six, I think. (15c)

So apart from butter, did you sell whole milk. No, it all went through the separator. The skim milk was mostly fed to the pigs.

So you kept some pigs as well?

Yes. Always had a pig or two. Always made our own bacon.

And what kind ofpigs did you have?

In the early days, black pigs. Berkshire. But afterwards we ran the red pig ... can't think ofits name now but we always used a Berkshire boar so they'd be a cross. (I think the red pigs were Tamw011hs­ D W)

So how many would you be running at a time?

Oh, only about three sows but they had litters of about nine or ten so with three sows you'd get anything up to thirty pigs. Which we sold as weaners except a couple we kept... whatever you kept for your own use.

ENDOFSIDEA

SIDEB

Frank, you were telling me about the pigs and you said you made your own bacon. Would you like to explain how you did that?

Ha! Ha! Well first of all we never salted the whole side down as some people did. We used to bone the rib. Take the ribs off and eat them as spare ribs fresh. Then you rubbed the salt and saltpetre into the boned (meat), except the ham-the bone stayed in the ham I can remember exactly what we used. Two ounces of saltpetre, two ounces of brown sugar to every fourteen pounds of pork. The brown sugar and saltpetre you'd mix into ordinary salt and you'd rub it with that.

And then what happened to it next. What was the next stage?

The next stage. After you had rubbed it a few times you packed it down and let it stay in its own brine. A fortnight for the fl.itches-that's the rib side-and three weeks for the ham. That was the general rule for it.

And where would you be doing this sort of work? Would that be done in an outhouse of some kind or at the main house?

No. As I think I said at the start it was originally two places and it was down near the stables and the yards where the cottage was. And it was all done at the cottage; all that sort of thing.

You must have had some sort of brine trough for the pork to be curing in.

Yes we had a barrel. They often had troughs but we had a half barrel and always used that.

Actually, talking ofbarrels, they were a lot more common in your day than they are now so I suppose you'd have used barrels for other things on the farm too, would you?

Yes! We used to make beer. Always made our beer in the summer. I remember my mother sending big billies of beer out to men stooking hay and they all came home... they'd been to sleep. Her beer had put them all to sleep. When they came in for lunch they said "sorry we've been asleep!" That was a good brew! It wasn't chilled in any way? Was it chilled when it was served?

We had what we called a summer house. It was a peaked roof with thick creeper growing over it and no floor-just dirt floor. And it was amazing how cool that kept. It was beautifully cool, the beer kept in there.

And how often would you be making beer?

Oh, perhaps twice during the summer. Never bothered about it in the winter; didn't make it.

Now with beer you need grain don't you? What grain did you use?

Ah. Rice. Mainly rice.

So where would you have bought that from. Because you wouldn't grow it.

No, we bought it at the shop. Bags ofrice.

Was that a whole grain rice or... ?

No whole grain. And wheat. Wheat too.

It's just a matter of putting water with that then is it

Yes.

So you put water on the grain and then what would happen?

(Frank got a little confused here and started to mix the curing ofpork and maldng ofbeer. He probably remembered the pork better because we continued intermittently to make ham and bacon ji-om farm raised pigs until about the early sixties. Home cured and smoked bacon and pork are quite different to modem bought product. They do not require refrigeration and used to hangfi·om the roof in a comer ofthe ldtchen where they could safely be kept almost indefinitely. Because of the high salt content which helped preserve them the bacon had to be boiled for some time before it could beji-ied. The resultant rashers were far more tasty than the bought article but the salt and fat content were, in retrospect, a heart specialist's nightmare. I think the recipe we used in the maldng ofbacon etc cameji"Oln an early edition ofMrs Beaton 'sfamous book which I still have complete with its instructions on how to manage the servants and what their duties should be in a well managed household and ofcourse the oft quoted chapter on jugged hare. "First catch your hare ...... ".-DW)

Talking of the beer then. You'd have grain and water and what's the process?

Goodness! It's a long time since I've made it. I've just about forgotten. Made it plenty of times but .. .it's a long, long time ago since I've made it. Last time I made it I suppose I'd be twenty years old.

That's nearly eighty years ago.

Yes and I don't remember too well eighty years back.

So, things like beer would have been more expensive to buy from a shop or from a hotel would they?

Oh yes. More expensive to buy. You could make it a lot cheaper than that.

Do you remember for example the price of a bottle of beer in you childhood. I think it was one and six (1/6d or 15c). That's for the large bottle. I don't know what is today; I've got no idea.

That would have been about a twenty-six fluid ounce bottle I suppose?

Yes.

So some people would have bought their beer but other people would have quite commonly made it.

Yes. I think most people bought it but my family were brought up making these things from the go. Making their own cheese. You see my mother was brought up at the Warren, on the Warren River and I suppose the nearest shop anywhere in her early days would have been forty of fifty miles away. So you didn't buy too much.

So you made your cheese, you made your butter and, of course, I suppose you made your bread?

Oh yes! Always 150 pound sacks of flour. Lump that up the hill to the house. I've carried a 150 pound bag up that damned hill too often not to know. Because it was easier to put it on your back and carry it up than to go and get a horse and put him in a cart and drive it up.

So how often during the week would you Mum make the bread?

Only about once a week.

So she would make a big number ofloaves at a time?

Oh yes. We had a brick oven. You know a proper brick bread making oven.

Was that in the house or out side?

No. Outside.

Had your father built that or was it there when you came into the house.

My father had that built. There was nothing much there. There wasn't even a proper stove. There wasn't a stove, there was an oven that you lit the fire on top of but you did your cooking on an open fire on top of the oven and you made your bread in the oven at the bottom.

But he thought a brick bread oven would be better so he built that outdoors?

Yes. You see a brick oven you fill it up with wood and when it's really good and hot you rake all the wood out and sponge it out to keep the dust down and then put your bread in. It was quite a business.

Did they go in for any variety of loaves or was it always the same?

No, she'd make brown bread sometimes, white bread sometimes and always make a lot of rolls.

And that was just for your own family use. You didn't sell that?

No. Except, occasionally, if you had a man working on the place who was camped. Then she'd.sell him his bread

Did you often have people working on the property? Yes. Sometimes up to about four. When my father went to England he somehow got in touch with young farmers, farmer's sons and he brought four of them out or they came out to him after he came back and they stayed there until the outbreak of the War (WWI). And they were all in the Territorial Army in Britain and of course they all took off with the exception of one. He stayed there. He wasn't as much of a farmer as the others. He was more of a clerk. He left and got a job as a clerk in Perth. I often used to see him.

So the people that he had there. There was this Mr Higgins that you spoke 0£ I think. He was there for about nine years and you also had these people who came from England as well working for you?

No, no. Higgins had left. He was a real loner. He never could work with other people. He had his own way of doing things so he went to Nannup, half working for his brother and that sort of thing, and my father got him a job in Busselton with my great-aunt and he stayed there for the rest of his life. He went on from my aunt to a cousin of mine and he stayed there. (the cousin was Henry Willmott who bought "Sa11dila11ds" farm after the death ofFra11ces Cookworthy. Hemy was MLAfor Sussex from 1938 to 1947-DW)

Just retracing our steps; you mentioned delivering your dairy produce in a sulky. Now, this is a different sort of vehicle again isn't it?

Yes, two wheeled.

That one has a cover over it doesn't it.

No. Some sulkys had but ours didn't.

How would it compare with a buggy. Were the wheels as high as a buggy wheel?

Higher.

So it's quite a tall vehicle.

Oh yes. The wheels would stand, I suppose, five feet. Quite a climb up into it

So you had a sulky at home. What other vehicles would you have had at home?

The buggy, Both pole and shalves. You could use it with two (horses) ifhe was going on long trips. He was a Forest Ranger in those days and had a big territory to cover. And he used to drive his pair. I remember one time my older brother. He'd promised to take him on a trip down to Deeside which was out ofManjimup and I kicked up Hell's Delight because he wouldn't take me. So, eventually my father said. "Oh, let him come" so my mother snatched an old sort of waistcoat thing ... ! was only in shirtsleeves ... put me in that and in the buggy so we went in the buggy. And that's the first time I ever heard about Guy Fawkes because it was evidently Guy Fawkes Day (5 th November-Dr¥) and our father told us the story of Guy Fawkes trying to blow up the Houses of Parliament. That's the first I ever heard of Guy Fawkes.

Did you have a bonfire and celebrate.

Oh, yes. We had a bonfire and crackers and rockets and all this sort of caper. That was still more or less going until David Brand became the Premier. He banned fireworks which was a good thing because quite a lot of kids got hurt with them. I got my eye nearly put out with one. The little wick on it had fallen out, you know, so we used to hold it against a bit of flame until it caught alight and I was looking to see if it was alight and it exploded right in my eye, Oh! That brings me to another thing that was probably different in your day from now and that is; when you got injured you really had to do a lot of the treatment at home. Can you remember what they did for you when that exploded in your face?

Yes, my mother took me in and bathed my eye and shielded it. Put a shield on it.

What would she have used to bathe it with?

Oh, just warm water as far as I can remember can remember.

Can you perhaps talk for a few minute about other things that were used as treatments if you were ill in those days. Home remedies?

Well, I suppose the poultice was the great thing. Slapped on your chest if you had a cold or on your back. I don't know what the deuce they were made of. She used to make them.

Can you describe what a poultice was?

Yes, it was a mixture of some sort she made up with eucalyptus and that sort of thing but what the main ingredient was I can't remember.

What was the idea of that; how did that help you?

That sorted the phlegm. You know, you'd cough it up if you got hard phlegm on your chest that was the best was of removing it.

So I suppose it was the heat in the poultice was it?

Oh yes, it was put on hot.

And perhaps the eucalyptus fumes?

Yes, that was the main thing, I think, the eucalyptus fumes. It'd soften the phlegm.

So that was the best way for dealing with a cold?

Yes, that was the main way of dealing with a cold. Arid bought cough mixture.

Oh, you could buy cough mixture, could you?

Yes you could.

Was there a phatmacy in Bridgetown in those days?

Yes, there was.

So, thinking of other home remedies, what would they have done if you had cut yourself or something like that?

Just wrap it up with a clean rag. Ifit was very bad you'd take it to a doctor and get it stitched.

But no antiseptics or anything; were there antiseptics?

Nothing much that I can remember.

Did they ever use salt in your place for that? No, I don't remember ever salt being used in that form.

Or even, I think some people might have used eucalyptus.

Oh, yes. Eucalyptus was the main home remedy in those days. There was a great deal of eucalyptus used.

What about if you had an earache?

Earache. Now, I think they used to put warm olive oil in it.

Pour it in your ear?

Yes.

Do you remember having that done to you?

Oh,yes.

Was it comfortable?

It isn't uncomfortable. You just pour it in lie your head over and let it sink in. Then they'd poke a bit of cotton wool in and tum you loose.

Does it work?

Yes. My word it works alright.

So if you had wanted to get a doctor, was there a doctor in Bridgetown?

Yes. There was always a doctor in my memory in Bridgetown. Pretty good one too he was, the earlier doctor. Because, funnily, in later years when I was about twenty-one or two, two old butchers I call them, doctors in Bridgetown tried to operate on me to take my appendix out. I'd been complaining about appendix for some years. I said. "I know I've got appendicitis". "Nonsense you imagine it." They just wouldn't believe it. Finally, they let these fellows loose on me and they made such a mess of me. They didn't know what to do. It burst all the stitches open, the whole thing open and they were going to put me in my brother-in-law's car and send me to Perth. My mother bailed up. She said. "No you're not doing that." So, she knew the leading surgeon in Perth in those days, a fellow by the name of Gillespie. He was a very good surgeon too. She tried to ring him and couldn't. They said. "No, he's on holidays somewhere down where you are. Somewhere beyond down in ... " I forget which place they decided he was. Anyway, my mother rang several times until she tracked him down and she told him that I was in a hell of a mess; she'd like him to see me. He said. "Well I'm going back to Perth on Sunday. I'll go via Bridgetown instead of the usual route, and I'll come and see him." I'll never forget. He came and he looked at it and I could see the look of horror on his face. He said. "Well. Just as well they don't try to send you to Perth. You'd live to about Greenbushes." He said. "You will stay here, I'll leave instructions with the matron and you will stay here for at least three weeks and then," he said, "you'll go to Perth by train and you will lie on the seat; don't sit up, lie on the seat all the way to Perth." So we did that. When we get to Perth there's a bloody hotel strike on. All the staff at the hotels were on strike and luckily for me the fellow we got for a taxi driver my father happened to know. He took us to the Savoy. "Oh no, you can't come in here." So this fellow said. "I think I know where you can get in. The Melbourne Hotel." He said. "You'd know the people-Lightlys." My mother said "know Lightlys, yes. Yes we know them quite well." He said. "Well that's the only place I can think of that will let you in." So we went to Lightly's and sure enough, they let us in. They said. "Keep quiet about it." So, there, I stayed and every day (it was just close to the X-ray place) I was under X-ray every day trying to find what was wrong with my inside. One day I was there. My father was sitting in a chair there and the fellow doing the X-rays said to my father. "Didn't you tell me this fellow had had his appendix out?" My father said. "Yes". He said. "Well he hasn't because they're still there. I can see them." So, my father told me then. He said. "We didn't like to tell you that they couldn't find your appendix." I said. "Well, you've worried the goddamn soul case out of me because I thought, ifit isn't my appendix, what the Hell is the matter with me." I was quite relieved to find it was my appendix. Anyway, Gillespie got me into hospital and he had me on the table for three hours and he said, "you've never seen such a mess. Your whole innards are one mass, all adhered, the whole thing was one solid mass. He said. "I don't know how the Hell you've lived." Anyway he operated on it. Did a pretty good job too because ...

You're here to tell the tale!

The funny part ... he went away immediately I'd been operated (on). He had a station up north and he was off to his station and he left the fellow who had given me the anaesthetic. He left me under his charge and after a day or two he came in to see me and to my amazement it was Dr Dean, the fellow who had been in Bridgetown. I knew him well.

It was a very much smaller place then W estem Australia, wasn't it?

Oh yes.

You could know people from all parts.

It was still like that when I went to school. I went to Hale in Perth, boarding and it was a pretty small place.

So you were in Perth Hospital then were you? Royal Perth?

No, no. I was in a private hospital. St Omer's it was.

Where was that?

It was in West Perth or just somewhat round that area. (I think it was in Havelock Street near the Kings Park Road end and continued to operate for many years. I feel it was still there when I went to Hale in 1950-DW)

That Lightly' s hotel you spoke about. Did you say it was the Melbourne?

The Melbourne, yes.

Which is on the comer of Milligan and Hay streets is it?

That's right.

It's still there today with the same name.

Yes.

So you've told me about this appendix story. Was that still before the Great War (WWI) while you were small or were you older when that happened?

No, I was older when that happened, I was about ... yes I spent my twenty-first birthday in hospital so I turned twenty-one during the whole of this business. I was in Perth.

That would have made it 1925? Yes, it would've.

Well it was lucky thing that your mother knew Dr Gillespie.

Yes it certainly was.

(The consequences ofthis appalling story ofmedical incompetence continued to affect Frankfor the rest of his long life as he had at least three further operations for adhesions and blockages. One ofthem, a serious blockage, took place when he was well into his eighties. With characteristic resilience he soon bounced back displaying the large stone they removed from his bowel to his shocked grandchildren and any body else who happened along.-D W)

ENDOFSIDEB

Tape2 SideA Tuesday20th March, 2001.

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number two in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing th Home, Mount Lawley. Tape Two is being recorded at Sandstrom on, March 20 , 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott's grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of 34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

MEMORIES OF HOME, FARM AND SCHOOL

JF: Frank, today, I want you to take me first on a tour of the homestead that you lived in as a little boy. Shall we approach the house from the front and you tell me what it was like? What sort of a house was it?

Wood.

Timber house?

It was a fairly extensive house but nothing flash about it.

And what about the roof?

Galvanised iron.

Galvanised iron. And as we approach the front did it have a gable type roof or a hip roof What sort of roof was it?

A gable type but as you approached the front of the house it ran across.

A gable across the building?

You approached it from the side.

And were there steps leading up to it or was it. .. ?

Only just one step and a verandah and then another couple of steps up into the house.

Yes. Which way did it face?

Ah ....the entrance to the house faces south.

Alright, so we're approaching from the south and is there a verandah to climb up on to?

Yes. You took a couple of steps on to the verandah then a couple more up into the house.

Right. So then is the front door to middle or to one side?

About in the middle.

So as we enter the front door what are we going into? What do we see? We enter the sitting room.

Right. So there was the sitting room directly inside the front door?

Yes. And bedrooms either side. And the ground rose towards the back of the house, You were pretty well on the level

Yes?

There were no steps ... or just one step up into the kitchen (from the outside-D W) ... which was an addition. It was sort of separate. There was a walkway between the kitchen and the dining room.

Yes. And so inside ... suppose we're standing inside this lounge room we've just come into.

Yes.

How was it furnished in the days when you were a little chap. What would we see in there?

Oh. Nothing flash. Two or three armchairs ... that sort of thing. Not much in the way of... just a little side table. Didn't have a lot of furniture in it.

What about heating. Was there some sort of fireplace?

Yes. There was a fireplace in the front room which we've just come into and that lead into the dining room which also had a fireplace.

Yes, because you'd need to keep pretty warm in that part of the country in winter, wouldn't you?

My word, yes. I always hated the cold. Other members of the family didn't mind it but I hated it.

Yes. And so I suppose you had to keep the fire supplied with wood?

Yes. Yes we used to go out with an axe and cart it in that way for a long time then we bought a circular saw and we finished up with a cross-cut. We'd cut big logs and split them up.

A mechanical cross-cut saw, was it?

Yes. With an engine.

I suppose there was no shortage of timber to be had for your fires?

Jarrah and red gum. They were the two. Jarrah was for the heat. Red gum was to keep the fire going. Slow burning thing, red gum.

Yes. And thinking about that lounge room in the days when you were small what sort of lighting would you use?

Lighting? Lamps. Kerosene lamps. But I think ... I'm sure it was ... the very first place that had electric light. My father put in an electric Delco. A Delco lighting plant.

Tell me about the Delco plant. What voltage was it?

It was quite a small plant... the engine ... but it was attached .. .it was all one with the generator.

Did it have a system ofbatteries as well? Yes. 32 Volt. There were 16 two volt batteries.

Was it a petrol motor or a diesel motor?

A petrol motor. Wait a minute. No it wasn't. It started with an oilcan to squirt a bit of petrol in and it was immediately on kerosene.

A kerosene motor. Where would the lighting plant have been set up?

Oh. Just at the back of the kitchen. The kitchen, as I've said, was separate and it was just straight off the end of that.

Did your father do the electric wiring for that himself?

Oh no. No, no. They came from Perth and installed the whole thing.

So when that was set up you had electric light in every room did you?

Oh yes. And they used to do ironing and that sort of thing by electricity but they had to run the motor while they did it. It was too heavy on the batteries.

The motor ... you started it with a crank handle did you?

No, press button. Off its own batteries.

Really. So that was quite an advanced system.

Yes. It was a wonderful little plant really. It went for years and years and years. In fact my brother who took the place over ... the motor eventually wore out and be just bought a new motor and attached it to it. (From what Frank told me years ago, this lighting plant went in before or during the Great War so, as Frank says, it must have been one of the first farms in WA to have electricity The plant itself was remarkably advanced with selfstarting and an aircooled kerosene engine.-DW)

In the lounge room would you have had anything in the way of musical instruments for entertaining?

Gramophone. We had a very small tin funneled ...you remember that picture on the boxes of needles?

Yes. His Masters Voice?

Well it was exactly that same little square box with this tin horn. Then my brother who was at school in England. He was there for nine years. They took him to leave him for three years then the war broke out. They left him there ... he was there for nine years. And when he came home be brought a big gramophone with him that be bad in England. That went for years. When he got married and moved out he took bis gramophone and we didn't have one. It wasn't long before we bought one!

And so you always had 78 discs for the gramophone.

Yes

You didn't ever have one of the phonographs with the cylindrical. .. ?

Circular ones you mean? No they were the phonograph. Ours was a Zonopbone. What sort of music did you play? Do you remember some of the records?

You name it, we had it! Ha Ha. For a start we just had these little circular discs. They weren't very good but my father bought great big discs and they would stick out all over the ..... as long as they had room to turn they weren't too big.

How often did you change needles with that machine?

Every record in those days you had to change the needle. Then they brought in a semi-permanent needle. That went for ... oh ... weeks. Finally they used diamond and they were everlasting.

Alright. .. I can picture the family ... when would you be playing the music? What times. (There is an interruption to the interview at th is point as Frank was having problems with his hearing. This was a problem throughout the interviews as Frank became ve,y deqf towards the end ofhis life and even the best hearing aids did not help ve,y much. There was some heredita,y deafiiess in the family (Frank's uncle Percy and cousin Madge Willmott were severely affected), but Frank also blamed his older bro the,~ Sykes,for discharging a shotgun right next to his ear during a kangaroo hunting expedition in their youth­ D W)

On what occasions would you be in the lounge room together as a family.

Oh every night after we'd had our evening meal we'd all be there. We mostly read books. Great readers ... the family were.

Can you recall some of the books that you had on your shelves?

You name it we had it! We had a library in Bridgetown. It was quite a good library too and we used to get books every week from the library. (The walls ofthe sitting room at Applewood were partly unlined above waist height and the spaces between the wall studs were filled with well stocked bookshelves with a great variety ofbooks. Frank's grandmother was a Bussell and that family was noted for its extensive c01respondence and literary tastes. This came out in later generations as a great love ofreading.-DW)

Can you recall any favourite stories or novels that you read yourself as a boy?

Ahhhh. There was one we all used to read ....now what the devil was his name.... Edgar Wallace. Do you remember Edgar Wallace?

Yes, I have seen some of his ...

He was one of our favourites. But we read almost anything. (Frank hadforgotten, but his mother, especially, although largely self educated, was an avid reader and, later, helped introduce me to Dickens, Kingsley, Kipling and Verne as well as books such as The Swiss Family Robinson, Robinson Crusoe, Treasure Island and others at a ve,y early age. I am sure Frank would also have read those books as a child. He remained a great reader almost to the end ofhis life, mostly, in latter years, ofthrillers and novels. Perhaps that is why he remembered Edgar Wallace who wrote thrillers in the early part ofthe twentieth centwy, the best !mown, perhaps, being "Sanders ofthe River"-DW)

Talking of reading for a moment since we are on that- did you get a newspaper very often?

The "West Australian" we always had. I used to bring it home from school. Pick it up and bring it home on my way home from school.

Was there a local paper in those days? Yes, the Blackwood Times was the local paper.

You had that too I suppose?

Yes. Oh yes.

So did you have a piano at home?

Oh, yes. My sister was a great singer. She had a beautiful voice and we always had a piano ever since I can remember. My mother used to play and there was singing.

Where was the piano located?

In the sitting room on the side wall away from any draught ... if you understand what I mean. There were three doors leading in from various places.(There were actually Jou,~ one from outside, one from each of the bedrooms and one from the dining room-DW) The piano was kept on the wall away from doors.

An inside wall?

Yes, An inside wall.

There'd have been curtains, I suppose, at the windows. Do you remember anything about that

Yes. Blinds and curtains.

Would you have had one window or was it several windows looking out?

There were two. One either side of the door. As you went in there were two windows.

It was plenty big enough for the family to relax in?

Oh yes.

What? 15 or 18 feet long or ... ?

I suppose it wouldn't be 18 feet. As I remember it was square and I suppose it would be about 14 feet square.

Ceilings. What about the ceilings?

Well, when first we went there it had no ceilings. And there came a big storm; blew the roof off. Piano and all getting rained on. We rushed and covered the piano and that sort of thing. So my father made the decision. He said. "It's no good putting the roof back on unless we put a ceiling in." So he put a metal ceiling in it. That was there for the rest of time.

Was that one of those stamped metal with a pattern?

That's right.

It would have been quite high would it, being an old house?

Yes. I would say the walls must have been ... I'd say at least 14 feet. That's in that room. As you went back into the dining room the roof sloped off... the ceiling sloped off. That was ceiled with timber. (The sitting room was a rather lovely room. It was wood panelled with beautifitl polished jarrah and the patterned metal ceiling with a large fireplace opposite thefi·ont door. Unfortunately, because it was partially unlined and faced south it was hard to keep warm. All the doors also made it draughty. In the summer, partly due to the position ofthe house high on the hill, it was a pleasantly cool room. The ceilings were indeed aboutfourteen feet high.-DW)

Coming out of the sitting room and going further on you went into the dining room. Can you just pick out the features of the dining room for me? What was in there in the way of furniture?

Well, as you walked in the door opposite was the window with the sloped roof. The left hand side was the fireplace. On the right hand side was another door which lead into what had originally been the kitchen. That was used as the kitchen for quite some years until they decided it was too small and we built the big kitchen and the kitchen became the boys' room. It became our bedroom.

It was quite common for children to share bedrooms in those days?

Yes, yes. My young brother and I shared a bedroom always.

Would you have had any sort of heating in your bedroom?

A hot brick to put in your bed. That's the only heating you had.

Golly. Where did you heat the brick up?

Oh, they'd be by the dining room fire. The dining room was where the sort of family living room was. And there were always bricks there so you could take one.

Just keeping just beside the frre?

Yes.

So off you'd go to bed with your brick?

Yes, that's right. Sometimes you'd wrap it in paper but it would be so hot it would set the paper alight. So you didn't put that in your bed!

You had plenty of cosy nights then? Or you started cosy.

Oh yes. Oh yes. It was quite cosy.

And so we've been into a bedroom. You're leading off the sitting room the other way instead of going into the dining room. What would have happened the other way?

The other side of the wall was a bathroom which lead off our parent's bedroom. Our room, the wall of that left what was originally a bedroom. A very small one. They turned it into a ... knocked a hole through into their bedroom and it became the bathroom. With a door from their bedroom and another door from the outside. We'd all use the bathroom from the other door, except our parents who used it from their bedroom. (Frank has slightly corifi1sed the layout by goingfi·om the boy's bedroom which lay outside the dining room where the old ldtchen had been. The bathroom lay beyond this with a door leadingfimn the parents bedroom which was immediately offthe sitting room as he says when referring to his sister's bedroom. It is perhaps easiest to understand ifone pictures the sitting room being on the south side ofthe main house with his parents bedroom on the south-east comer ofthe house and his sister's on the south-west corner. The bathroom was on the north-east comer with the dining room on the north-west side and the boy's room in between. The semi-detached ldtchen lay offthe north-west comer and there was another room on the south-west end ofthe verandah which lay along both the south and part ofthe east sides ofthe house. This room was used variously as an office and a bedroom. In later years a further bedroom was added at the other end ofthe verandah on the east side. It should be remembered that in earlier times up until about the 1960 's most homes in WA had verandahs and these were used extensively for sleeping during the hotter months. This applied in the city and towns as well as onfanns. That lifestyle came to an end as families became smaller and the need to share bedrooms diminished. Many postwar homes did not have large verandahs and the final blow to sleeping on verandahs and sleepouts (which were verandahs enclosed by lattice or, in later years,flywire. was dealt by the horrific random murders by Eric Edgar Cook in Perth in the early 1960 's. Suddenly security assumed much greater significance. It will be noted that there is no mention ofa laund1y. That was actually a quite large separate building behind the house which included a copperfor boiling linen and clothes as well as double wash troughs and probably a mangle or hand wringer. Frank told me that when they first moved to "Applewood" there was no laund,y and his mother carried the washing down to a pool in the creek which flowed several hundred metres away from the house. I don't /mow how long that lasted but my wife was not amused when I reminded her ofmy grandmother's circumstances when we lived at an "Applewood" which lacked many of the mod cons ofthe 60's-DW)

There was a bedroom for parents, there was a bedroom for you boys and you had a sister too did you?

Yes, she had the room ... as I said as you walk in there was a bedroom either side. She had the corresponding room to my parents' room.

On the opposite side of the sitting room.

That's right.

So, think about the kitchen now then. That was a separate building a little bit further out from the back of the house. How was that set up? What sort of facilities did you have in there?

A big table for doing all the work, making the pastry, baking the bread and at one end ofit was a pantry where all the stores were kept. We kept pretty big stores, you know. A bag of flour at a time, a 1501b bag of flour. I often lumped it up the hill on my back.

Apart from the table then you had some sort of cooking range, would you?

Yes, that was set back in a sort of alcove. (It was actually set in one ofthe galvanised iron fireplace and chimney structures that were commonly attached to the outside walls ofbuildings in earlier times. It was still there with a newer (but still old) Metters stove when I lived at "Applewood" with my young family in the early 60 's-DW)

Was that a wood-fired stove?

Yes.

Do you remember the brand or the type?

Metters!

Oh it was Metters.

Yes. Metters stove.

They were well known in WA weren't they?

Metters?

Yes until my wife, after I was married, introduced the Andrews. They're a wonderful stove. Two ovens. And they were very light on wood. You opened just a little door and poked the wood into this little fireplace. That was more like a slow combustion type of stove.

Yes it was, yes. You could turn the draught off if you didn't want the ovens warm. You could turn the draught off so it didn't circulate round the ovens. And that would keep it in all night.

Whereas the Metters was just an ordinary wood fired stove.

Oh yes, Sliding doors. Yes. They weren't much of a stove really the Metters.

I suppose they were economical were they in terms ofbuying them? Not too dear to buy?

They were cheap as dirt!

Now I can picture my mother cleaning one of those stoves. Can you tell me what your mother had to do to clean the stove?

Yes. Rake it all out at the bottom - the ashes.

You had to rake out under the oven as well as the fire box didn't you?

Yes all the bottom. Pretty dirty sort of a job that was.

Did she ever put anything on in the way of polish on the top?

Oh yes. Oh yes. They were always putting stove polish on it.

The called that Black Lead, didn't they?

Black Lead, yes.

They used to come up looking very smart.

Yes, that's right. (The later Metters stoves that we had in several homes were vitrious enamelled which eliminated the dirty polishing process using BlackLead-DW)

You were telling me last week that you didn't actually bake your bread there. You had somewhere else to bake the bread.

Oh a brick oven. Yes. That was outside.. Do you remember I said there was a door leading into what had originally been the kitchen? Well just about opposite that was the brick oven. I can seem my mother, red-faced, raking that out because they used to heat it up and rake it all out and put the bread in.

It was a very effective way of cooking, wasn't it?

Oh yes. It made wonderful bread. Much better bread cooked in a brick oven like that than we ever got in the stove.

You would have had a number of other labour saving devices in the kitchen I suppose. Can you think of some of the machinery that your mother used?

Only a churn. A butter making churn, was it?

Yes.

What about things for mincing meat. Did she have some sort of machine for doing that?

No, only a hand mincer. Only a little thing.

And what about things like ordinary kitchen utensils. What are some of the ones you remember from that era?

Oooh ...various pots and pans for mixing this and that. I don't remember that there was a hell of a lot except that there was a fairly large thing for mixing the dough for the bread. Quite a job that was. She had big ideas making bread. Not just a couple of loaves. A dozen loaves.

What did she do for yeast.

We always kept our own yeast and if something happened and she ran out she'd have to start... she'd go and borrow a bit of yeast and start it. There was none of this .. .like they had afterwards ... no dried yeast. No such thing, no.

She had to start it off herself with flour and water?

Yes. But you had to start it working by somebody giving you a bit that was already working. You could, I suppose, do it in time but it was a slow business.

I think it takes about a week doesn't it?

Yes, that's right. So you'd see her come home with a little cup of borrowed yeast to start her own.

Perhaps we'll leave the house now and talk for a moment about your jobs round the house as a little boy. What sort of things were you expected to do?

Oh. Carry in the wood. You didn't chop it then. A bit older I had to chop it but it was our job to keep the big wood box full. Every morning you'd come in with a few armfuls of wood and put it in the box. That's about all I did do in the house.

Tape2 SideB

So you used to have to milk the cows. When did that happen.

Morning and evening. Morning and evening. We only had about three or four. Didn't have a big herd ....you know.... we would hand milk them and the separator and all that was all kept down at the cottage. A building at the bottom of the hill. All the separating and everything was done there;quite separate from the house.

So, at what time in the morning would you have had to go and do the milking?

Oh, about six.

It was no bother getting up for that?

Ohh, sometimes I didn't like it but I had to get up just the same (chuckle).

Did you have that job to do on your own or were there other people helping? No, I had it on my own. Pretty well. My sister used to ... before I was available she used to do the milking. But of course she was married just after I left school so I got the job.

And how old would you have been when you started milking?

Ohh. I think I'd have been about seven. Yes. Eight, eight. Because I learnt to milk at my grandmother's when we stayed there when ...I think I've told you about that. Yes we stayed there. I learnt to milk and separate and all that sort of thing. She and her daughter were the best people I ever knew at getting work out of kids. They'd get it without pain too. Made it interesting; I don't knowwhy.

So there was no excuse when you went home?

No.

You now knew how to milk. What were some of the other chores that you did round the farm then apart from milking.

Oh. I used to pick fruit. You know. It was quite a big orchard. We were selling several thousand boxes of apples a year.

Would that be before the Great War while you were still a young lad, would it?

Oh yes. Yes. The orchard, I think, was at its best then when I was young. Because we got a terrible attack of aphis; woolly aphis. And it nearly ruined us. Nearly ruined the orchard too. Until they got a thing that attacked it ... what do they call it?

Some sort of predator? A predator that attacked woolly aphis? Was it a wasp or something?

•Yes, it was a type of wasp that laid its eggs inside the aphis and you'd go up one day and all the woolly aphis had dropped off. You'd inspect the aphis then. Each one had a little hole punched in its back. These flies had bred in the aphis. It wiped the a phis out. Completely wiped it out. Never had any more trouble with it after that.

So talking about the orchard. Was that well established when your father took over that property?

Yes. No it was not WELL established. It was bearing. It was of bearing age.

And how big an orchard was that?

About 20 acres in the one round the house. We planted another five acres on to that. There was another orchard down at what we called the cottage; separate. That was mainly ... there were a few apples, but it was mainly a pear orchard.

And what varieties of apples and pears were grown then?

Apples; Jonathon, Cleos, Rokewoods, Dougherty, what they called it the Improved Yates but it wasn't. The Yates was a far better apple. We had Yates too, And Five Crown or London Pippin. They were free from aphis. For some reason they never got aphis.

So would that orchard then ... were you selling directly to buyers or did you have to go through a market or through a co-operative?

Oh, we sent it all to Perth. Simpers market in Fremantle and various markets in Perth, mainly Berrymans as far as we were concerned. So your job then was picking mainly as far as the orchard was concerned? As a boy?

As a boy, yes. It wasn't very long before I was packing. Funny damned thing too, I was the only one that ever learned to pack apples. So I was a fool to have learned because I spent my life on a packing bench.

Tell us what you do at a packing bench because very few kids these days would know about packing apples.

You had a trolley run on wheels and rails. Got it right up against the bench where the apples were and that's a grated bench you know, spaces so the rubbish dropped through and you emptied the boxes of apples as they were brought in from the orchard on to this bench and you stood there at this packing trolley and just picked them up and wrapped them and ..... (A wooden trolley ran on wooden rails and carried the case being packed as well as the wrapping tissues-D W)

What did you wrap them in?

Tissue papers. Specially made tissue papers of various sizes; squares for various sizes of apples. It was quite a job.

You'd have to grade them for size, would you.

Yes, you eye graded them in those days. Later on we put graders in but when I started it was all graded by eye and you got pretty good at it too.

So, was the market principally local, you know, metropolitan Perth or was it going overseas?

Oh, most of our apples were exported overseas mainly to England except for Dunns Seedlings which were very large apples and of course they didn't want them but Germany grabbed them. Yes, Germany took all them. Greedy blokes the Germans. (Chuckle) They liked everything big.

OK so you're picking and packing apples, you're milking cows. Were there other things that you had to do round the farm when you were a small boy?

I learnt to prune pretty early in the piece. That's a big job in an orchard and it's quite an artistic job because different varieties had to be pruned in different ways. Some bore fruit on laterals and some entirely on spurs and some mixed. It's quite a knowledgeable job, learning to prune.

And so was your father the one that taught you that?

No. No, he never did any of that. He always paid somebody else to do it but I learnt it mainly from one fello\'v, Townsend; I was just trying to remember his name. A fellow by the name of Townsend. He used to do a lot of our pruning.

And you'd be doing that with some sort oflittle pruning saw, would you?

You'd have a pair of snips. Pruners. And you'd have sort of curved saws you'd carry on your belt for removing bigger limbs.

What happened to the off-cuts?

Oh. They were the bane of your existence. They had to all be raked and burnt and you had a portable burner drawn by a horse. Then you'd rake all these prunings up and gather them up and light a fire in this and burn all the prunings. Before that we used to cart them all away. But that seemed a stupid idea. Burn them in a big heap outside. The ash was good; good fertiliser, the ash. You had burners made to bum them in the orchard itself

Somewhere soon we've got to talk about going to school because, I mean, the way you were working hard at home; you also had to go and do your education. So would you like to tell me about your experience of primary school?

Yes, well my first experience of school was ... not a school mistress ... a teacher, self taught. She was only about halfway to town from us so we used to go over there.

Her private house?

Yes. That was while my sister was still going. When she went away to boarding school I went to the State School in Bridgetown.

Would you like to tell me a bit about lessons with this tutor then? How many other kids were there?

Only us. Two boys and a girl. The younger boy never went to that school

And your father would pay fees for that I suppose?

Oh, yes, she must have been paid

So that would have been ... how long did you do that?

Oh, not more than about ... I wouldn't have been more than two years at the most. I think it would be less because from seven to eight I never went to school at all. I was taken to Busselton while they were overseas. Me and my younger brother.

So you'd have learnt to read with that woman. The tutor?

Yes. Yes when I went to the State School, when I was eight, I started at the State School and of course they put me in the Infants and I stayed there for a couple of weeks. And the teacher ... she knew my family ... she was only just a little more than a kid ... eighteen, nineteen I suppose. She woke up that I knew a good deal more than I let on, you know, so she came out one day to lunch on a Sunday and she said. "You know I think Frank ought to be moved up out of my classes. He's quite a good reader and he does a bit of arithmetic". So it was decided to move me up into a higher class. That was still a lady teacher but a higher grade.

How many teachers did Bridgetown State School have in those days?

Only one man; the Head. That's the only man teacher we had at that early stage. And about four women teachers I suppose. Might have been five. The special teacher with the Infants. You know five or six year old kids.

You'd have been six when you started with this other girl would you. The one who tutored you and your sister?

Yes.

But about eight when you went to the state school?

That's right.

And what do you remember as some of the best things about school? Playing the wag. (chuckle)

Did you play the wag??!!.

Oh, we did a few times. Unfortunately the very first time we did it we got caught. We used to ride, my brother and I, my younger brother, rode to school. My father owned one of the hotels and just a little paddock alongside there and we used to put our horses in there and shove our saddles under the building and go off to school. But, one day we decided; oh, we won't go to school, it's a nice day... we won't go to school. .. lets go riding. So we went riding. Very foolishly we got an attack of conscience and we said we'd better go to school this afternoon. Sure enough, when we got home my mother came and met us and said, "Why didn't you go to school this morning?" I said, "How the hell did you know?" She said, "Because somebody saw you come in at midday and they told me, "Oh the boys must have been kept home from school this morning?" "No they weren't, they went." ... Oh, so then the cat was out of the bag. The very first time!!!! Ha, ha,ha

So it was good while it lasted. Did you do that sort of thing often?

No. No it was the only time we ever did it thatl remember. But later on at boarding school ... oh I became a master at playing the wag. They had a separate laboratory for teaching science. And it had a room attached to it in graded heights so that everybody could see. But I developed the theory... I worked out that as long as I moved my seat for a few days, they wouldn't miss me. So I'd wait until the master was out of the room and I'd slip out the window. I'd go up into the Observatory because the Observatory was right along side of the school in those days. I used to go and sometimes I'd even do all my sums and do my schoolwork but it would be outside. I wouldn't be confined.

Well, yes. And going back for a moment you said you had horses to ride on to school. Did you have other pets apart from horses?

Always had a dog or two. Couple of dogs. I always had a dog and my brother always had a dog. Mine were very good sheep dogs ...I got hold of a very good breed and they were. But my brother had cattle dogs; they were useless. He started them wrong and they were ... you know ... no sense. Intelligent dogs are very intelligent animals but a dud is a dud, and he's a dud. Absolutely useless. I remember somebody giving me one, one time. "You run cattle don't you?" "Yes, I don't, but my brother Joe, he handles the cattle and does the milking and that" I was away from there. I was on the sheep then. So Joe was given this dog. He was the most useless dog I've ever seen in my life. He couldn't do a thing and he couldn't understand a thing. Amazing, the difference in dogs. A bad dog is absolutely useless. He'll stand there and look at you. An intelligent dog ... as soon as you look at him you know he's intelligent. A really good dog knows everything you say if you talk to him. People used to hear me talking to my dog and say, "What are you talking to that dog for?!!" And I said, "How else do you teach kids?" "Oh, but," he says, "he's a dog." I said "You talk to your dog and he'll understand every word you say. Don't use doggy talk. Talk to him in a normal voice and if he's an intelligent dog he'll know everything you say." Because I remember having a big argument one day so I said, "The dog here I've got, he can go from here. I'll send him down. He can get the killers, he'll put them in the yard, he'll count whatever number up to five that I tell him to leave there and he'll put the others back in the paddock and I'll sit in my chair while he does it." "Bunkum, Bunkum." So they had a bet with me. I called the dog over, I tested him, I said, "Scamp, I want you to go to check the gates in the yard first then I want you to go and bring the killing sheep in and leave three in the killing pen. Don't forget to set the gates first before you bring the sheep in. Then put the others back in the paddock" They said, "Oh bunkum." I said "Well, I'll sit here and I won't move from here and he'll go and do it." And it was quite a way where he had to go. It was down the hill. I've explained there were two, sort of, properties. So I got him and told him what I wanted him to do. He went down, checked the gates first as I'd told him to fix them, went and got the sheep in, counted three, put them in the killing pen, put the others back in the paddock, came and reported. And they wouldn't believe me. They said, "You played some trick on us. That dog understands everything you say to him." And I say, "That's why I told you not to pet him or pat him or take any notice of him because you distract him." I tried him several times like that and they just couldn't believe it. They said, "Well how do you teach him?" I said. "Well how the hell do you teach your kids? You talk to them. That's what you do with a dog. If you want him to really understand you, you've got to talk to him all the time. Not in doggy talk. Talk to him like a man. He'll know, if he's a clever dog, he'll know.

Gee. That's an amazing story And did you have that one from a little pup?

Yes. I bred him. And the others were quite reasonably good. But this ... I knew him... knew from the time he was a little pup. He showed that he was intelligent; highly intelligent. Few dogs you get are as intelligent as that.

Yes. What breed was he?

A German coolie. I got him from a brother-in-law of mine as a little pup. He said he's a German Collie. Oh,I never heard of them. Until one day I happened to be watching something on television and these dogs were working. I said, "God, this is the dog." And he said, (the narrator-DW) "now these are highly intelligent dogs. They are German coolies." He said "I don't know how the German came into it because I've done some research on it and there are traces of other breeds that they are mixed in with," he said, "but I've never heard anything about a German Collie." He said, "they don't exist." That's when he woke up that it wasn't a Collie at all. It was coolie.

Amazing. So you had lots to do with dogs and lots to do with horses. As well as the horses you rode you would have had others to do draught work?

Yes. Oh yes.

Tell me about them.

Well, we bred them as a matter of fact. My father bought a prize stallion. He was imported from the eastern states somewhere by Frank Venn. If you've ever heard the name of Frank Venn. He was a great horseman and a good farmer too and he sold this horse to my father; this stallion. And we bred horses not only for ourselves but for other people. Stood him at stud. Oh, a lot of his progeny existed round Bridgetown for years.

So how many horses would you have had on the farm when you were a youngster that were draught or you know were used for work?

Oh, seven or eight.

And would you have been able to feed them entirely on what was growing on the farm or would you have had to buy food in?

Oh no. We grew it. We grew quite a big paddock of oats every year. We used to stack them in this shed at first and cut it. We had a chaff cutter. And cut it as we needed it. But afterwards I woke up to that... it bred mice and snakes, everything lived on the mice. So I bought a big chaff cutter and cut it all into chaff and built a big mouse proof shed and cut it all into chaff and used it as chaff from the day one. (The big chaffcutter dated to a much later era after WWII when Frank and his family had moved to "Geegeelup ". The chaffcutting would take place between Christmas and New Year utilizing a team ofmen who were on holiday from their nonnal jobs. Two trucks and about ten men were employed to cart the hay fi'om the stoolrs in the paddock, put it through the chaffcutter, sew the bags and cany them into the large nissen hut type shed which Frank built near the main Perth road. The work was hot, dusty and ve,y itchy as I remember all too well. These large chaffcutters could be quite dangerous and several men in the district had lost anns feeding the hay in. It was particularly hazardous to wear gloves, which was tempting when the hay contained thistles etc.. The gloves could become caught in the rollers which fed the hay to the large cutting wheel with terrible consequences. Because of this, Frank would never allow anyone else to feed the hay into the cutter. The otherjob which required a level ofconcentration was operating the bagger which necessitated removing each bag as itfilled, switching the flow ofchaff to the second bagger and reloading an empty bag as well as clearing the full bag to the sewers. Providing each operation was carried out accurately and in the correct order it was fairly hard but straight forward work. However, a dreadfal tangle would eventuate ifsomething went wrong, with chaffpouring all over the ground and a great deal ofshouting and confi1sion. As a ten or twelve year old boy I started worldng in the team, at various times driving a truck in the paddock, cutting the twine bands on the sheaves and sewing bags. Eventually, as soon as I was strong enough I graduated to the bagger and did that job until the chaffwas phased out in the mid to late fifties. It was a ve,y unpleasantjob. You itched unbearably for weeks afte,wards-D W)

You'd have to supplement that sometimes with bran or pollard or that sort of thing?

Oh yes. We always had bran. Not much pollard. Not good for the wind of horses. They get too taken up with it. They love pollard. They like bran too but bran's good for them and a bit of oats provided you don't overdo it. You can easily feed a horse ,vith too many oats and you break him down. I had a fellow working for me that perpetually did it to horses. He'd overdo the oats until finally I kicked him out. He would feed too much oats. They're cunning beggars, you know, horses. You'd find a horse standing in the creek. Hello, hello! He's been feeding that horse ,vith oats again. And I'd roust on him "Aw well, we used to feed our horses on oats" I said "But you were running mails. Your horses were doing 40 miles, 50 miles a day." They can stand a bit of oats if you do that but not the way we work them. If they're travelling fast they can stand a bit of oats ... but not too much. They'll break down just the same if you overdo it.

End of Tape 2 Side B

Tape3 SideA Tuesday, 27th March, 2001

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number three in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing th Home, Mount Lawley. Tape Three is being recorded at Sandstrom on Tuesday, March 27 , 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott' s grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

SCHOOL DAYS AND LEARNING TO DRIVE

JF: Now Frank I want to take you back to Primary School again. You started to tell me about it last week. There's a lot more things you can tell me about it I think. So to begin with do you remember the names of any of the teachers that you had.

Oh yes. The headmaster, that's when I first started, was a fellow by the name of Florence and he was a very likeable chap too. I got on very well with him, unlike some of the fellows that followed.

What about the lady who first taught you who recommended you go up higher.

The first one I remember, was a girl ... Scott-Clarke was her name. I remember her very well because my parents knew her family very well and she became quite a friend.

Were they Bridgetown people? (Frank mishears this question-DW)

Yes, that was in the old school and it was in the middle of town and in 1915, I think it was, they moved up to the new school. They had built the new school a bit out of the town. (not 11ow!-D W)

Did the Scott-Clarkes live in Bridgetown or were they somewhere else?

No, they lived somewhere else. She was just teaching there for a couple of years. Then they moved on. Another one I remember quite well because she married a fellow who went away to the war and was killed. Her maiden name was Cork, Miss Cork and her married name was Maywood. I knew him too; Reg Maywood, but unfortunately for him he was killed.

So when you left the class with Miss Scott-Clarke, which teacher did you have straight after that?

Miss Cork.

Do you remember what she was like as a teacher?

She was a very good teacher. She seemed to get through to you. Some ... you run into them like that, good teachers and bad teachers. She had the knack of getting through to kids. She was quite popular, unlike some.

And how long were you with her?

I suppose it must have been at least a year. I think it was probably a bit more than that. Did they have group classes there. Different grades in the same room?

Yes They did at that time because there was a shortage of teachers because of the war coming so a lot of them sort of doubled up.

Would you know how many were in the class? Roughly how many kids would be in the class, in one class?

I suppose there would be anything up to about twenty-five. Between twenty and twenty-five

Were there other staff members whom you remember from Primary School that taught you later on.

No I don't think there were.

So apart from teachers then what about your best friends at school?

Amongst the other kids you mean?

Yes.

The Dousts were near neighbours, I knew them before I went to school. But I met a fellow there ... I think it was all started by the Headmaster, Florence. This kid was fighting and I got called out of my class one day, had a pair of gloves put on me and taken into a room and here's this fellow there. He'd evidently had two or three blokes on before that. I think the Head reckoned he was sick of him fighting. But as far as I was concerned it did exactly the opposite. From that day we fought. For no reason at all. No reason, he'd just suddenly turn round and bog into me.

Gloves or not? With gloves?

In the school yard it was bare fists, go as you please.

Did you have any training in boxing?

Now and again, yes. There was an older kid who was a past student ... what was his name? His people were the barbers in the town. Savery, that was his name.

So did you like boxing?

Well yes, because I did it at home too. My father believed in teaching kids to look after themselves. We had another fellow working for us who was a bit of a boxer himself and he taught me a lot.(Frank, in turn, had his sons taught to box by an ex-professional, Fred Morey, who lived in Bridgetown. Not to a very high standard but enough to be able to conjivnt a bully and enough to !mow the difference between a fair fight and a brawl. The thought ofusing the lmives we all carried at school would never have occurred to us. If a fight broke out a circle would fonn around the protagonists and a fair fight would be insisted on by the onlookers. I am sure it would have been the same in Frank's day.-DW)

So apart from that one boy who was troublesome were there other people that you fought with at school?

Oh, odd times yes. But mostly with gloves. Boxing. I only had that one fellow I used to get down to it with properly.

Well that brings me to thinking. Did you ever get into trouble for fighting?

No, I don't think we ever did. They left you alone. If you wanted to fight, you fought.

Did they ever organise it so that you had an audience; somebody to watch you fighting? No, only the unofficial ones!!

So, going on from fighting your main purpose in going to school was to study. At school what subjects of study did you like?

Reading, writing and arithmetic.

You liked the lot? Which was your best?

Taught a bit of geography, history and things like that.

Which was your favourite subject?

Well it wasn't arithmetic. I think English. Because I was taught a good deal about English at home. I was pretty good at it.

Yes.

And they were a pretty mixed bunch in those days. There were a lot of pretty wild fellows. It was the days of the sleeper cutters. The sleepers were all cut by hand and the sleeper hewers were working in the district and they were a pretty wild bunch some of them.

You came up in the school of hard knocks?

Oh yes. That's when I first started but the population changed once the saw mills started cutting sleepers the hewers drifted away into other things. Probably a lot of them went on to the mills.

Did you win any prizes for your study or your work at school?

Prizes? Yes. When first I went there they did but they seemed to disappear. I suppose it was the war. I think all that sort of thing went by the board then.

Do you remember winning any prize yourself?

Yes I remember a book. I couldn't remember the name of it for the life of me but I did get a book. I think it was the first year I was there.

Sometimes in those days they used to give prizes for attendance. Did you get any recognition for attendance?

No. You got the cuts for not attending!

So you had that experience, did you? Did you get the cane for playing truant?

Yes,I did.

Was that the time you were telling me about last week where your brother and you went riding?

Yes. He was a bit of a hard case my younger brother, Mischievous damned kid if ever there was one. He led me into most things because he'd invent the mischief and I'd carry it out and he always got off and I got the cuts. (The eternal complaint by older children against their younger siblings!! Although Frank was not the oldest son he became so to all intents and pwposes when his older bro the,~ Sykes, was left in England to go to schoolin 1911-DW) Was he in the same class as you?

No, we got separated. He wasn't a very scholarly fellow and yet he gained a lot of knowledge. He was a great reader and he remembered what he read. To a great extent I think he educated himself. (Joe was two years younger than Frank and Sykes two years older. A third brother, Del, the youngest, died ofwhooping cough in infancy. Their sister, Catherine (Kitty) was the oldest; aboutfive years older than Frank.-D 1¥)

Who did you spend most time with in the free time at school? Other students?

I think I mixed with everybody. Yes, it was the general thing. You mixed. You had your football teams and captains of each team. You'd get stuck into high jinks.

So you liked footy?

Yes. I used to like my footy.

What about in summer? You didn't play footy in summer I suppose.

No. We played a bit of cricket but for some reason cricket wasn't a very popular game. I don't know why. I suppose really there was nobody to teach us how to really play cricket. You know, it's a thing you've got to learn to play, cricket, I think.

Did you ever play marbles?

Yes! It was the national game. Everybody played marbles, mostly for keeps too. There was one fellow there, I'll never forget him, his name was Shepherd, and the teachers used to get fed up with him. He had marbles, pockets full of them. Ifhe walked out to do anything these marbles would be rattling in his pockets. They'd head him off.

Did you win plenty of marbles?

Yes, I was fairly good.

Wasn't there a marbles season? When did they play marbles?

Winter. Crawling round in the dirt. (Marbles were still played when I attended the Bridgetown State School in the 1940s. Because ofthe war new marbles were unobtainable so to have marbles you had to win them. For the same reason broken marbles would be carefully examined and any marble ofwhich more than halfremained was accepted as a stake. It was uncanny how the start andfinish ofthe marble seasons occurred. One day eve1y boy (the girls did not play marbles) would be playing and the next, for no apparent reason, it would be totally ridiculous to think ofplaying. The same at the beginning ofthe season. It was almost as if it was determined by the moon, or day length.-DVV)

Were there any aboriginal students at that school?

Oh yes, there were quite a few when I first went there There were a couple of families and they were treated like everybody else. They were just part of the business. You didn't see any feeling against aboriginal blood. You just accepted it and they were part of the scene. Which changed very considerably after. I don't know why.

Were their parents working for people in the town?

No, they had their own properties. Yes, that's interesting isn't it because aboriginal ownership of land did happen in those days.

Oh, yes they had their own properties.

And what were they doing on it? Were they growing fruit?

No, mostly they milked a few cows. I don't remember any of them ever being fruit growers. I don't think it suited them. They liked livestock.

Do you remember the aborigines being able to cope alright with the school work?

Yes, in the main. I think they may have been a bit behind the rest of them but they coped. But, when I first started they weren't even allowed in the classrooms. They used to sit out in the corridor and listen. That changed after. It was a silly system really to segregate them like that. I think the aboriginals themselves felt pretty bad about it.

Was that just a rule at that school or did that apply somewhere else in the state?

As far as I know, I think it applied everywhere. They were not allowed in the classroom. Which was a stupid thing as far as I was concerned.

Can you remember any of the aboriginal children that you were fairly friendly with?

Yes, I knew some of them. I can't remember their names now. The only ones I can remember I was very unfriendly with. They were a family who were always fighting and getting into trouble of some sort and that went on when they were grown up. They were a menace around the place. There was a great thing amongst them. If they could get a white bloke or a couple of white fellows, they'd tackle them in a bunch, in a mob. They knocked them about pretty badly, some of the fellows they caught. But the whites woke up to it and took jolly good care not to mix with them unless there were plenty of other white fellows around.

Were they good footballers?

Yes, there was one of this mob I played football with, in the same team. He was a good footballer too. He was different to all the rest of the family for some reason. He was much whiter, you'd hardly know he was an aboriginal. In fact he became engaged to a girl, a family from Boyup somewhere. I didn't know the family. But somebody told the family that this fellow was an aboriginal. That was the end of that, they came down on that and hunted him (away). I felt sorry for him really because he was a well behaved, decent fellow. It's funny that one ofthem... he was the oldest boy. All the others were rotters. Real wasters. This fellow was a particularly nice fellow and well behaved. He didn't behave like the other aboriginals at all. He left there and went away and he did pretty well for himself.

Going back inside the classroom for a moment what sort of desks did they use in those days. Can you remember the sort of desks you sat in?

Yes. Long, I suppose they'd seat a dozen. (Some ofthese very long desks were still in use in the small school where I started school in 1942. I think Frank over estimated the number ofchildren they seated if they were the same desks. I think about six. They had inkwell holes at regular intervals along them and were used for some ofthe ve,y young children. Due to wartime shortages ofpaper we first learnt to write with slates-DW)

So they were quite long weren't they?

Yes, they didn't get seats holding two until they built the new school. They got rid of all the old and had the normal two seater desks And thinking about inside the classroom it was very different in those days from the present time. What can you think of? Some of the things that were very different, that students of today would be very surprised at? ·

Well in the old school where we first went, there were shutters between the rooms and sometimes the shutters would go right up and it would be one big hall. They closed them down and it separated into separate classes.

Can you remember the sorts of things they did when they opened it up to one big hall?

Yes. When they were teaching singing and that sort ofthing. The master at that time was rather keen on it and we used to do a fair bit of singing.

Did you like it?

I liked it alright. I think most of the kids enjoyed it.

Do you still remember some if your schoo 1 songs?

No. I don't remember, they've gone.

What instrument did they use to accompany the singing?

Oh yes, the piano. There was always a piano.

And was that the same person playing the piano who was leading the singing or did they have a separate pianist?

No, there was always one of the women who could play. Always seemed to be somebody who could play. In fact some of the students ... it was a great thing for girls to learn the piano in those days. A lot of them learnt.

What about boys?

Not interested. No I don't remember any boy that played a piano. That was a tart's game!!

That was the term you used was it? The word "tart" simply meant girl did it?

Oh, all the girls were called tarts. I don't know why. It became a general use and then afterwards a tart was a girl who was misbehaving herself. It didn't start off like that. They were just tarts. Not used in a derogatory fashion or anything like that at all. (The term was still used that way in the schoolyard in the 40's-DW)

If you were in a classroom writing in your day, what might you be writing with?

Pen.

What do you mean by a pen. My biro would be called a pen these days. What sort of pen were you using?

Ordinary nib. An ordinary thin handled pen and a nib you slipped into it. I can remember the first ... well they weren't biros ...

Fountain pen? Yes, they were fountain pens but not with a nib. You know, a little hole. What do they call them now?

A ballpoint?

Yes that's what they call them now but that's not what they called them in those days. I can't remember what they called them. It's gone completely.

When you were at school, what did you use for ink?

Every desk, when we got the new desks ... the others had an inkwell at every seat... and they had the same thing but only two people sitting at them.

And were did the ink come from?

Out a big bottle like this? Inkwells would be filled up by...

About 4 or 5 litres would it be?

Yes. No I don't think it would be that big. Maybe a couple of litres, something like that.

Did they buy that in or did they make it up?

As far as I can remember I think they bought it in. I don't think they made it up. (The first ballpoint or biro pens first appeared in the early 50 's but I think there was an earlier type of fountain pen which utilized a fine tube rather than a nib. I too learnt to use the old style pens with a detachable nib which ji·equently became crossed and splattered ink all over the page. We learnt to write "coppe1plate" with finn down strokes and lighter upstrokes. Because ofthis I have always found biros hard to use and still use a fountain pen ifI want to write neatly. I am sure Frank would have used the same pens and techniques. The ink that was used came in powderform and a couple ofboys would be detailed to mix a large quantity by putting it in an old four gallon (25L approx) kerosene tin and adding water. It would then be decanted into large bottles and again, a couple ofboys would be rostered for inkwell duty to go around the classroom once a week and fill the porcelain inkwells in each desk The ink was slow d1ying so in addition to the hazard ofcrossed nibs it was ve,y easy to smudge ji·eshly completed work Many of the girls wore their hair in long plaits and it was great sport, ifyou found yourselfsitting behind one, to quietly put the ends ofherplaits in in/Mells which, when she stood up, would come flying out and throw ink all over the room. It was good fun but ve,y painful as the culprit would quickly be identified and fired off to the Headmasterfor a healthy dose ofthe cane.-D"W)

Just very quickly, before the tape finishes. Chores at school. Did you have to do jobs around the school.

Yes. When the new school was built, the old school was there and everything was there but when the new school was built we did practically all the work, the boys. Clearing it, levelled off a place for a cricket pitch and all that sort of thing. We were under supervision of a master; the Head. There was only a Headmaster then. The others were all women teachers in those days. I suppose mainly because of the war.

End of Side A

Tape3 SideB

JF: Continuing with school. Talking about chores around the school. Did you ever have to cut firewood for the school? Some of the older boys must have, I think, because in Bridgetown you had fires in every room in the winter time.

But you don't remember cutting it yourself?

No,Idon't.

With the garden around it was that all done by volunteers?

Yes. In front of the school was quite an area laid out as a garden and each kid had his own garden. We used to grow all sorts of vegetables and that sort of thing. Gardening day was a great day for us. Ate everything we grew...

How often did you have a gardening day?

Once a week, Friday afternoon was gardening and the girls on Friday afternoon, sewing. They did sewing. The boys did gardening and the girls did sewing. We reckoned we had by far the best deal. So did the girls.

What about other jobs around the school? Did you do jobs for the teachers in the classroom?

Yes. I don't remember just what sort of jobs, but I remember doing jobs.

Things like cleaning the blackboard perhaps?

Yes.

You've mentioned playing footy and you've mentioned marbles but were there any other games that you played out in the school ground.

Yes. We'd break out of the school grounds. There was a big area ... we'd call it "hare and hounds". It was ... what do the call it when they drop scent along ... you drop a bit of paper.

A paper trail?

A paper chase ... oh, yes we had a big area we used to chase the paper on.

Was that an informal day or was that something the teachers organized?

No, no. The kids ran that entirely themselves. I don't know what the girls did. They had something else, I don't remember what they did on those days. (For a description ofa paper chase at Rugby School in England many years earlier see "Tom Brown's Schooldays". The principles were probably much the same.-Dff')

Were boys kept separate from girls at that school?

Yes. Even in the playground. One end of the playground was girls. They played basketball or what ever they did. We'd play our football or cricket or whatever we were playing or paper chase. (Segregation in the schoolyard remained in force until it was officially abandoned when our daughters were at Ned/ands Primmy School in the early 1970s. The children were told they could now play in any part ofthe grounds. The novelty lasted for a few days until the children largely separated again into groups ofboys or girls. Force ofhabit I suppose. It is probably different now.-Dff')

(Frank once told me that they used to play a game called "English and French". This was a game of goodies and baddies similar to the "Cowboys and Indians" that we used to play with a lot ofchasing around and shouting with no clear winners and ever changing rules. This must have been before the Great War when the last major wars fought by Britain were the Napoleonic Wars a hundred years before. I think he also told me that Trafalgar Day was still observed then. This, ofcourse, marked Nelson's great naval victory in 1805. All these memories were swept away by the carnage ofwhat was known as the Great War, now often referred to as World War One which in turn was followed by World War Two which dominated my early childhood in the same way the Great War dominated Frank's.-DW)

What about inside? Were girls and boys kept separate inside the classroom?

Yes. In the main. I remember they instituted ... some teacher ... a different Head, I suppose ... mixed boys and girls. A boy and a girl. But that didn't work. Too much hair pulling and all this. They soon cut it out. Boys at that age don't have any respect much for the girls. Aw, they're tarts!!

And you were like that?

Yes. Oh yes, I was one of the mob. It's a funny thing that, left to themselves, boys make up their minds about what girls were allowed to do ... there was damned little they were allowed to do. (I don't think things had changed much by the time I went to school some thirty years later. Sometimes due to class structure a boy and girl would be seated together. Th is was humiliating to both, I think. It was even worse ifyou happened to be attracted to the girl which would call for extra noisy showing offand plait pulling!!-D W)

Can you remember lunch time at school? What happened at lunch time?

Most kids brought their lunch with them. There was a lunch shed. Ifit was raining you ate your lunch in the shed. I remember my lunch. It was always eaten on the way home after school. I was too busy playing marbles or whatever else in the break and I used to cop it when I got home. "Why aren't you eating your tea?" "Oh, I ate my lunch on the way home." They used to roust us but it never made any difference."

What sort of things did you have in your lunch box?

Oh, various things. Most kids had sandwiches but my mother wasn't much of a believer in sandwiches. She'd put slices of meat or bits of chicken or something and bread and butter; separately.

Did you ever swap food with other kids?

Occasionally, yes but not all that much.

I suppose you had plenty of fruit.

Oh, yes. What do think? We had apples. You always had a couple of apples in your pocket. I think most kids in Bridgetown were brought up on fruit.

What did they do about keeping it? Over the year, after the season?

You had a season and that was it until later on they built a big cool store and then, of course, you put it all in cool store.

When did that come in, Frank? When did the cool stores come in?

I think I had left school by that time, I think, when cool stores came. Because I went away to boarding school. (The apple season was quite long. The earliest varieties, such as Jonathans, would ripen in early March while the Granny Smiths would not ripen until late April and would continue, if left on the tree, until late June or so. Granny Smiths, stored in a cool dark place would keep until August in quite good condition. Stone fi·uit such as apricots, peaches, nectarines and plums as well as pears, which also grew well in Bridgetown, ripened earlier so the time when little or no fiuit was available was quite short, say September, October, November. Locquats were the earliestfi·uit to ripen and their ripening each year seemed to coincide with most children developing bellyaches!-DW.)

Can you remember special events? Days like athletics carnivals or other special sports days and things like that?

Only Friday swimming that I remember. The girls would be bent over their needles! They went swimming on a different day. I don't remember what day the girls went swimming but they had swimming for the girls.

Where did you swim?

Two separate areas. The boys were about a mile or three-quarters of a mile up river from the bridge over the river and the girls were below the bridge.

What was the river like at that point where you swam?

It was a great deal cleaner and less salty than it became afterwards. There was not much clearing and although the Blackwood rises in the salt lakes at Wagin it got so diluted it was ... I drank it in my younger days ... just bend down and take a drink of water out of the river ... because the salt sinks to the bottom. The top of the river is practically fresh ... or was in those days.

And it was quite a big pool, was it, where you used to swim?

Where we swam was a big pool. Because for those who could swim there was a big rock about half a mile up the stream and the kids used to swim up to this rock. Those that could swim. I couldn't swim for quite a while. I finally learnt, but I didn't learn to swim in Bridgetown in the river. I learnt to swim in Busselton because my grandparents and most ofmy older relations lived around Busselton and I preferred the sea every time to the river. Naturally, of course, because it's a lot easier to swim in salt water than it is in fresh. {Frank's dislike ofswimming in the river carried over and we, generally, were banned from swimming there. The school had occasional swimming lessons in my day, mostly fitrther up the river at Moore's Pool rather than at Walker's Pool which is the one Frank refers to. Of course we did go swimming at Walker's Pool and then spent the time on the way home hying to get our hair dry and working out an explanation for our lateness. Not always successfully.-DW)

Was the school swimming in the river competitive or was it just a free swim.

No, there was nothing competitive about it. It was just a frolic. If you wanted to learn to swim in time you did. And get into mischief. For a long time I rode a bicycle to school. When we were swimming, sure enough some coot would let my tyres down. As sure as a gun they'd let my tyres down.

So you'd given up on the old horse?

No, this was before I'd started the horse. Because my brother never learnt to ride a bicycle. I rode my bicycle before he started. I started off riding a horse. When I first started school I did ride a horse but she was pretty old and she fell badly with me once or twice so I refused to ride a horse that fell down. I reckoned she'd end up breaking my neck. You had to keep a stick to belt her with. She wouldn't get into a canter unless ... because I remember one day I was whaling into (hitting) her and I overbalanced and there was a big coil of wire netting or I thought it was wire netting and I went head first into this coil. And I got up and started home and somebody came and said, "what's that, what the devil's that?" "Oh, blood." The barbs had got into me all over me. It was barbed wire?

Yes! There was a mixed roll. They'd rolled up barbed wire and wire netting together and of course I went head first into this and copped the lot.

Did the horse walk on home or did she wait for you?

The horse? Never moved. You had to have a waddy to move that horse. But afterwards an old aunt of mine gave us ...

You were telling me about the horse?

The one we were given as a present. My young brother ... she gave him this horse. I used to ride it mostly because he couldn't ride in those days and she was a flighty little mare. A beautiful little mare to ride too. She lived for years. My brother who wasn't very big rode her until she was pensioned off.

Coming to your bicycle now. When did you get a bike?

It was my mother's. My father and mother each bought bicycles when they were in England because they had bikes here on the Goldfields and they bought bicycles to ride them all over England. Because my father's bikes were saleable he sold his bikes and kept the ladies bikes for us kids to ride. There wasn't much sale for ladies bikes. (Frank's parents spend the.first years oftheir married life in the gold.fields where Frank senior worked on several water supply projects. He was the Government supervisor at the Niagara Dam project between Menzies and Kookynie. They lived at the small town ofNiagara near the dam and while there Frank's mother contracted typhoid fever which was rife on the Gold.fields at the time. I have a letter which was written from Niagara in which Frank's father is mentioned as riding his bike for some miles to get some fresh goat's milk for his wife as she started to recover.-DW)

So, it was not your own bike, it was a family bike?

Yes. For those that learnt. I don't ever remember my sister ever learning to ride a bike or my younger brother. Neither of them ever rode bikes as far as I can remember.

Did that bike have any gears or any thing like that special on it?

Yes it was three speed gears, the one that I rode finally. Before that I had a bike my mother had had on the goldfields and it had wooden rims. Beautifully made bike, true as anything with wooden rims. Fixed wheel. No freewheel about it. But what you called coasters. Going down hill you'd put your feet up on these coasters.

You needed good brakes then?

It had a brake. On the front wheel, on the tire. If you wanted to get spilt put the brake on. That's on this first bike. The other had brakes back and front and sometimes I think you'd put the front one on and go a buster.

Coming to other things that might have happened at school; did they ever take any school camps or excursions or that sort of thing?

The kids were taken round a bit before breakup at the end of the year but I never went on one because we always went to Busselton because my father and mother would go to Perth before Christmas to do their Christmas shopping and that sort of thing. We were sent to our grandmother's or great-aunt. We'd have a free old time in Busselton. So that was while school was still operating?

Yes, yes.

For how much of the time would it be.

School time it would only be about a fortnight, I'd say. The final fortnight.

Did you miss your exams?

Exams, yes. The final exams at the end of the year. Yes we missed them every time.

Well that probably explains why you don't remember prizes. Was there a parent association helping the school? Like P & C.

Didn't exist. Practically it didn't exist. No, I never remember parents visiting the school unless the kid was sick or something. I remember one day I was sent home with a boy because I was the only bloke there who knew who knew where he lived. He lived just up the road ... about half a mile from us. So I was sent to take him home. Luckily for me I spotted my father's car so we got driven home.

Talking about the car then for a moment. What sort of vehicle would that have been?

T-model Ford. My father was agent for T-model Fords and he sold dozens of them. I was going to say every second car but there were very little ...! remember only two other makes that ever ... an Overland and a Studebaker. There was one of each. The others were all T-model Fords.

And we're still talking about pre-war aren't we? Before the Great War?

Oh, the T-modelFords went on long after that.

How early before the war were T-models in?

My father bought his first one in 1912. Beginning of1912. Yes that would be right. The war started in 1914 didn't it? Yes.

So they were around at that early stage?

Yes, and I could drive them too.

Could you?

Because my father used to go away quite a bit. He was a Forest Ranger before he went into Parliament and he was off quite a lot and unbeknown to him I used to get the car out in a paddock and I'd taught myself to drive it and I drove all around the paddock. One day he came home unexpectedly. I thought "Gawd I'm for it now." He said, "put that car away" and I had to come a very awkward bend. But I'd had plenty of practice. He couldn't have done it... come up and just straight in. So he looked at me for a bit and he said. "How many times have you put that car in there like that?" I said. "I don't know." He said. "You've forgotten?" "Yes I have. I've forgotten." So I thought I'm for it now. Not another word said. I began to worry; what was going to happen to me? And that night when we were having tea he said to my mother, "well you can forget about how you are going to get into town to do your shopping." Because there were only two other people who could drive cars in the town. One was the Church of England parson and the other was a fruit inspector bloke. And my mother said, "what do you mean." He said. "Well Frank can drive you." She said. "Frank! The boy's only ten, how can he drive me?" He said. ''Don't you worry he can drive that car all right." And from that day on I drove her until my sister left school and that was a bad day for me because I taught her to drive. And once she had possession of the car I couldn't get it. I just got in it one day to go in and buy some nails or something and she told me off properly. She complained to my father thatl bad taken the car. He said. "Who taught you to drive the car?" "I taught myself." "No you didn't," he said. "Frank taught you." He said. "You remember that car is for the use of the place, ifhe wants to borrow it to go to town to get something he gets it." But he didn't. While my father was around; be was in Parliament then, of course he was away most of the time. She'd bounce me then. "No, don't you take the car," and it became her car. So I got fed up with this so I bought myself a second hand motorbike. I was free on my own then. I always rode my motorbike.

Talking about driving the T-model. That was rather different from driving a car these days, wasn't it?

Oh yes, all done with three pedals. Left hand pedal was your "clutch". Press it forward, that was first gear and you let it back through neutral into top gear. Only two gears. And, reverse was the middle pedal. You bad the left pedal in neutral and press the centre pedal it backed. And the right hand pedal was the brake. (Frank refers to the lefi handpedal as the clutch but he really means that it had much the same effect as a clutch in more modern cars in that the car was brought to a halt by putting the left handpedal in the central neutral position. The T-model did not have a clutch and utilized a planetmy gear system on the flywheel which was made to go into low and high gear, and reverse by a series ofbands which locked or released part ofthe gearing and were controlled by the pedals. It was an ingenious system which in a more sophisticatedf011n became the basis of the automatic transmissions ofmuch later vehicles.-DW)

Starting it? Was that a problem for you when you were a kid?

No, I was a pretty strong sort of a kid. I could crank it. There was no self starters, you had to crank it but I could manage that all right. But I learnt something from my father. Always cranked with the left hand. You know why?

Ah. Because if it backfires ...

That's right, it would catch you on the back of the knuckles. If you used your left hand it hit your palm. Yes that was the idea of that. (There was another technique for starting T-model Fords which could be utilised when the engine had been running not long before. Jf it was stopped properly it could usually be started by simply turning the ignition on. They utilised a batte1y and trembler coil for the ignition and if the engine had been stopped with one cylinder just after top dead centre on the compression stroke when the ignition was turned back on a spark would be produced and the engine wouldjire.-DW)

And they had two levers on the side of the steering column, didn't they? What were the two levers on the steering column?

Below the wheel?

Yes.

Yes, the spark control was under your right hand and the throttle control was done by hand on the left hand. No foot accelerator or anything in those days. (The spark control was used to advance or retard the ignition timing which occurs automatically in modern cars. Frank didn't mention that on many if not all early cars and tractors it was ve,y important to retard the spark (make it later in the compression stroke of each piston) before attempting to crank the engine. Failure to do so could result in a ve1y nasty baclifire which was known to break a man's amt. There were two golden rules to be observed before hand cranldng. The other was to check that the vehicle or tractor was out ofgear and the brake applied. People were run over and ldlled by neglecting the latter. Even after the introduction offoot accelerators cars continued to have hand throttles until about the late 1940 's. They also continued to have provision for hand cranking with a detachable crank handle until about the same time-DW) And they were quite a good car for the country I suppose?

Marvellous. You could pick them up, a man could. I used to go on quite a lot of trips with my father when he was in Parliament and you'd get into a bit of bog and he'd lift the car up and pack some stuff under the wheels to drive it out.

They were high anyway. High off the ground.

Yes, quite high, a lot of clearance.

Where did you put the petrol?

Under the front seat. Lift the seat and there was the tank underneath. The first time I ever went to meet the train to bring my father home, I couldn't get up a steep pinch in a hill leaving the farm. Every time I got there it would stop. I had blokes pushing it. I couldn't make it out. I told my father when he got a ride home. "Oh," he said. "It's out of petrol." "What do you mean, there's petrol in the tank, I measured it, there's that much in there (indicates measure)." "Yes," he said. "But, that's gravity feed and when you get there the petrol doesn't flow to the carburetor." So, I learnt that the hard way!

Had to back up the hill? (Frank didn't respond to this comment but bacldng up steep hills was recognized method ofcoping with this problem which John obviously knew about-DW) Where did you get your fuel? Were there bowsers?

No. We bought it in cases. We bought twenty or thirty cases at a time.

And within the case?

Two four gallon tins (about 251 each) nailed down in a case. The cases were very handy. They were white wood, light and we always used them for picking apples. They held quite a bit more than a bushel but they were no heavier than a jarrah bushel. We had dozens and dozens of them. (By the time I can first remember petrol came in 44 gallon drums or could be purchased from a bowser (which was much more expensive). However, the white wood cases continued to be used for picldngfruit for many years and were greatly valued and carefully preserved. They really remained the container of choice until bulk bins began to be used in the mid 50s. At much the same time export apples started to be packed in cardboard cartons or were also exported in bulk bins. Prior to that the jarrah bushel case was used. It was distinctive to WA and was often labelled on the end with a colou,ful label with many ofthe larger orchardists having their own label. Case maldng was a sldlledjob as were the other tasks associated with the indust,y includingpicldng and packing. Quite a large itinerantwod,force t,·avelled from town to town for the season at the height ofwhich the packing sheds would work long into the night. Small trucks would cany the packed cases to the railway station although the large pacldng sheds run by Wesfanners and Paterson & Co had their own sidings so the rail t,·ucks could be directly loaded. Every case had to be handled a number oftimes, which was back brealdng work due to its repetitive nature and the need for gentle handling. There were often problems on the wharves due to careless handling by the waterside workers and their habit ofgoing on strike and delaying the highly perishable cargos.-DW)

Perhaps at this stage we'll just quickly say. Is there any thing more you want to tell me about school because we've only got a minute or two?

About school? All I can tell you is that I didn't like school.

You didn't like it? No. Not at the State School; the day school, I liked boarding school, Got a bit fed up with it sometimes but generally speaking it was good fun. It was pretty free and easy because the boarding house was separate from the day school in those days, The boarding house was what had been the previous school and that was down in George Street right, right opposite the Barracks, and the day school was up in Havelock Street, a couple of streets up. (Frank, of course, went to Hale School which was then known as High School. The day school that he refers to was opposite Parliament House and most ofthose buildings are still standing in 2001 and the old day school houses the Constitution Centre. By the time I started at Hale, in 1950, a boarding House had been built at Havelock Street so the school was all on one site again. When my son, Greg, went to school as a day pupil the school had moved to Wembley Downs. The family association with the school goes back well beyond Frank's time. Several ofhis Broclanan uncles had attended the school in the 1880's and Franks great-grandfather, John Bussell, had acted as Headmaster for a short period in the 1860 's to enable Bishop Hale to keep his school open. The continuity between Bishop Hale's school and present day Hale School is disputed by some historians but Hale is celebrating its 150th anniversary in 2008!.-DW)

End of Tape 3 Side B

Tape4 SideA Tuesday, 3rd April, 2001

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number four in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing rd Home, Mount Lawley. Tape four is being recorded at Sandstrom on Tuesday, April 3 , 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott's grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

FAMILY ORIGINS AND FATHER'S CAREER

To begin with, let's look at the Willmott family. What can you tell me about their origins? Where did the Willmotts come from?

(Much ofthe first part ofthis tape comprises questions about the origins of the Willmott family. Like many ofhis generation Frank never took a great interest in family hist01y prior to his father's arrival in WA although he became interested when I began researching the family in the late 1970 's. Unfortunately he must have forgotten much ofwhat I told him as many ofhis answers are wrong or misleading. In the interests ofaccuracy I here set out an outline ofa very interesting and well documented hist01y. The first records ofthe Willmott family start appearing in Buckinghamshire around 1588. 1h ey appear to have been fanners then and remained so until the early eighteenth centwy when our ancestor moved to Homsey in what is now part ofnorth London. He too appears to have been afanner but had obviously prospered as his will leaves substantial legacies to his two daughters and three sons ofwhom our ancestor was the youngest. In this will he was described as a "gentleman." The youngest son, William, served in the Royal Navy at the siege ofHavana in 1762 which was the last major campaign ofthe Seven Years War. Despite heavy casualties, mainlyji-om disease, our William survived and then joined an uncle (not Willmott) at the SherborneSilkmills in Dorset. He went on to own and expand the silk mills and for the next 100 years the family prospered in that business although they never achieved great wealth. The business during the Willmott years was that ofsilk throwing, not weaving, although that came later and fibreglass is still woven on the same site. Silk throwing is the process oftaldng raw silk; which has already been taken off the cocoon and drawing and twisting it to make the various threads which are then dyed and woven into fabric at separate weaving mills which at that time were not located in Dorset. This part ofthe family's history is ve,y well documented by a large collection offamily letters, business records and other documents held in the Dorset County Record Office and Sherbo me Museum. I have microfilm of them and have transcribed the letters which are both private and business and provide a fascinating insight into life in rural Dorset, in a time ofgredt change, early in the Industrial Revolution. Frank's grandfather, Rev. Hemy Willmott MA (Oxon), did not join the family business which continued in the hands ofhis younger brothers. Hemy became a Church ofEngland clergyman. He died at an early age leaving a young family ofwhom Frank's father was the youngest. Due to theirfather's early death the family was quite hard up and I think were assisted in the children's education by fi·iends and relatives. Frank's father (Francis Edward Sykes-also Frank) was educated at Hurstpie,point College in Sussex). His older brother, William Henry Percival (Percy) joined the Merchant Navy and trained on the famous Conway sailing ship. It may be that he hoped to enter the Royal Navy at a later stage. This was a path followed by several members of my mother's family when finances were difficult and made direct ent,y into the Royal Navy impossible. As Frank says Percy's deteriorating hearing forced a change ofplan and I possess a letter dated 2nd December 1886 written by Percy to Frank's father, who was still at school, proposing a move to WA. Events moved with remarkable speed after that as they embarked on the SS Valetta on 24th Februa,y 1887 bound/or WA. There is a collection ofletters written by their mothe,~ which follows their voyage out and the early time in WA. I also have a deck plan showing the location oftheir berths on the Valletta. They landed first in Albany, as did all the modem steamships in that era before the development ofFremantle harbour, and came to Perth and thence to "The Warren". I think this joumey involved going by a small coastal sailing ship to the Vasse, as Busse/ton was then called, and then overland via Nannup which was the usual route used by theBrockmans. TheBroclanans were connected by marriage to the family of Frank's grandmother, the Sykes' ofBasildon, Bedcshire. There, also, seems to have been contact with several other well known Western Australians including Sir John Forrest and a Mr Wittenoom. I am not sure the original plans called for them to go to the Warren and letters in the Broclanan archives suggest they were not altogether welcomed by Edward Broclanan who was not especially happy to train two inexperienced Englishmen. However, they did go there and in due course married the two eldest daughters. I am not sure why Frank thought they camefi"om Devon but it may have been because his grandmother had been brought up in Cullompton in Devon where herfather, Rev William Sykes, was the vicar and I think she spent some ofher later years in Exmouth. Percy Willmott later became the first keeper ofthe Cape Leeuwin lighthouse and later still, after he and his brother had both benefited fi·om substantial legacies fi'om England, built B asildene Manor in Margaret River as his family's home. Frank's father invested in purchasing and rebuilding the old Bridgetown Hotel and its associated shops. -D ~

England.

Whereabouts in England were they?

I'm not quite sure where they did start but they finished up in Devon. I can't remember just where they started.

Which part of Devon? Do you know where they were in Devon?

Yes I do know but I can't remember the name.

Perhaps it will come back to you as we talk.

Yes it probably will ... I had it on the tip ofmy tongue then.

Who was the first Willmott to come to Australia?

My father and his older brother. He was in the Navy and he started to go deaf so he had to leave and he decided to come to Australia and he asked my father (on tape Frank says "brother" but he means his father-DW) who was only sixteen if he'd go with him and he jumped at the chance and they came out together.

Would you like to tell me a little bit about his naval service before we go on?

No. I wouldn't know anything about that. I'm not sure that he was in the Navy. I think that in those days they had a system if they couldn't afford the Navy. And I don't think they could, they were pretty badly off I think. There were certain captains who were approved to train men for the first part of their training and that's the only part he ever did because he was going deaf and he had to leave.

Was deafness a problem for him for the rest of his life?

Yes, and I've got the same problem. Funnily enough my father had acute hearing but my hearing ... even when I was a kid I heard my father say, "I think that boy's deaf'. It wasn't as deaf as I am now certainly but I.. .he thought for a while it was attention ... "Why don't you pay attention?" He decided in the end it wasn't inattention ... "he's deaf'and he was right. Not badly deaf. They spoke and I'd say, "what did you say" and they'd have to repeat it. (As mentioned elsewhere Frank also attributed some ofhis deafness to his brother Sykes discharging a shotgun close to his head while out hunting in their youth. I have some doubts that Frank did sufferfi'om the same problem as his uncle Percy. Percy's daughter Madge certainly did and she became ve1y deafby about forty years ofage. Miraculously, a new operation pe1fonned by Dr Peter Packer when she was in her sixties largely restored her hearing which I think was caused by the thickening ofa small bone in the ear. While Frank did suffer a bit from poor hearing I don't think it greatly inconvenienced him during his Parliamentmy career. I think his deaji1ess late in life could easily have been due to the combined effects of the gunshot and years ofdriving ve1y noisy tractors without em·protection and more shooting. His left ear was always the worst and that was where the gunshot took place. He did not like passengers talking while he was driving and I can remember many trips to Perth which passed in almost total silence. Ofcourse his children always felt he sufferedji·om "selective hearing"!!-DW)

Do you know whether he thought about other places before choosing Australia?

No I don't think they did. I think it was a spur of the moment thing. They knew the Brockmans in some way. They had a connection with the Brockmans. The two of them came out specifically to Edward Brockman at the Warren. Where they came first and then they moved out.

So just for the record, what was your father's name?

Frank. Francis Edward Sykes.

And his brother that came with him?

Percy, but I don't remember his other name now. (William Hemy Percival-D W)

And do you know what ship they came on?

No. I don't remember. He might have said some time ago but it never sank in.

When did they come?

I think it's 1887 or 88, about then.

So it would have been a sailing ship, would it?

No. She was a steamer.

Do you know where they landed? Did they land at Fremantle or was it at Busselton or somewhere like that.

I think they landed at Fremantle but I wouldn't be too sure about that. I don't think they landed at Busselton. I think they must have landed at Fremantle.

I suppose the Broclanans must have been expecting them and met them. Do you know about that?

Somebody met them I think. Yes, they knew they were coming, but they had to go down to "The Warren" but I just can't make out where they did land. It wouldn't have been Busselton anyway I don't think. They didn't have the very long jetty in those days. A mile and a quarter long that jetty to get sufficient water for quite a small boat.

So when they were first here, were they working for the Broclanans?

Yes, they started working for them for a while but that didn't last. The older brother went off pearling I think, because he being a sailor it appealed to him. My father went up to Minilya station and I think Julius Brockman had it at the time so there'd be a connection there.

Minilya. That's Kimberley district or not as far north as that? No. No, it would be not as far up as the Kimberley. I'm just trying to think where it was. It's not very far up. Dammit, I've been to the place!

I'll check that one on a map just so I can locate it. (It is between Camarvon and Exmouth. The modern main road to Exmouth leaves the North-west Coastal Highway near Mini/ya Roadhouse and I think the homestead is notfar away-DW)

So he spent quite a bit of time then working on the station, did he?

No, I don't think he did. He went fencing with a very well known man who was a fencer and it was the first bad drought in that area and most of the people left their places. But this fencer. He took the places up and he became quite a famous man. What was his name again. 0 h, a well known name ... it'll come to me. (Urifortunately, I do not know much about this phase ofFrank's father's life-DW)

So he was doing fencing on contract I suppose was he?

I think so, yes.

How long did that last?

My father working for him? I suppose it lasted for a couple of years anyway.

He obviously found his way back to the south-west eventually?

Yes eventually he did but I don't know ... he went to the goldfields too of course. I don't know whether he went direct from Minilya ... no, no he wouldn't ... because he was living in Perth. I think he was married then. Yes he was married when he went to the goldfields because my mother always told me she rode the biggest camel on the goldfields. An enormous thing and he was quite a docile animal. Some half-caste fellow upset him and he killed him. He bit his head straight off. (Frank's father worked on several water supply projects in thegoldfields including Niagara Dam where he was the Government Supervisor. Niagara Dam is located between Menzies and Kookynie and was built to supply water/or the railway then being built. It is like a miniature Mundaring Weir but was not a success due to leakage and unreliable rainfall. Due to cost over runs it became controversial and subject to a good deal ofpolitical manoeuvreing. To what extent Frank's father became involved in this I don't know but it would be interesting to research this project which was overshadowed by the Mun daring scheme only a few years later and largely has been forgotten. Frank's father also wod,ed on the Mundaring scheme where he supervised the ringbarldng of the catchment area to increase runoff He later worked as Inspector ofPipes which were being manufactured at Falldrk (,nodern Bassendean-D W)

So your parents then must have met somewhere in Perth did they?

She was the second daughter at "The Warren", where they first came out to them.

Was it love at first sight do you think?

I don't know about that. They didn't have much opportunity to meet people, of course, "The Warren" was a long way in those days from anywhere. No motorcars or any thing like that. They married the two eldest girls. My uncle Percy married the oldest daughter and my father married the second, number two in the family. They were a family often of them. (I have been told that it was love at first sightfor Percy and Margaret (Maggie) but rather slower/or Frank's parents. Both brothers retumed to the Wmrenfi·om time to time and Percy acted as tutor to several ofthe younger Brockman children. The Brockman family comprised six sons and four daughters.­ DW)

Did you tell me that your father was the elder of the two brothers No, no. Percy was the eldest.

What do you lmow about the Brockmans first in Western Australia? Do you lmow about their coming here?

Oh, they were here in the very early days. I have heard when they came but it's gone from me now. What ship they came on. I seem to have heard more about their coming than my father and his brother. But that was a long time before. They were well settled people, the Brockmans, in the very early days. Very big family of them too. (The Broclanans, like the Bussells, arrived in early 1830, the Broclanans on the "Minstrel" and the Bussells on the "Warrior." Frank's great-grandfather William LockeBroclanan was followed shortly after by his brother Robert and a third branch of the family arrived a generation later. This third branch always used the Drake-Broclanan name which for some reason William Locke and Robert's families did not. Howeve1~ most Broclanans today acknowledge that the correct name is Drake-Broclanan and it was, in fact, enshrined in an act ofParliament which enabled William Locke's grandfather Rev. Ralph Drake to inherit the Broclanan estates. He was a Broclanan descendant who married a Broclanan cousin. Today some descendants of William Locke and Robert use the full name and some do not.-DW)

Tell me something. Does this name Drake, which is your middle name, come through the Brockman family?

Yes.

Can you tell me about that?

Well, the youngest of the ten children in the Brockman family that I have just mentioned was Francis Drake Brockman. That's where I got the name from. (Francis Drake Broclanan was the youngest ofthe family so Frank's' mother was quite grown up when he was born and no doubt played an active part in looking after him as baby. He died at about twenty-one from pneumonia contracted as a result ofwet, cold cattle work at "The Warren". Frank's mother grieved for him for the rest ofher life and no doubt that is why Frank was named after him. Some thirty two years later I was named after her youngest son who died ofwhooping cough aged two months.-DW)

It's a Brockman name. Funnily enough, my son got interested in it on a trip to England and he knew more about it when he came back than we had ever known about the Brockmans. They lived just near Folkestone (Kent). The family are all scattered through that country there. (I really found out a lot more about the Willmotts whose history had been neglected. The Broclanans and Drake-Broclanans have been well researched by other people and I didn't really add anything except by visiting the churches etc which had been associated with the family since at least the thirteenth centu,y.­ DW)

Is there any connection between the famous sailor Francis Drake or is that a different family altogether?

Yes, same family. But not Francis of course, he was never married but he had a brother and he was settled in Folkestone or around that area somewhere. (The connection to Sir Francis Drake has been the subject ofdebate and discussion in the family for many years with some family historians claiming there was no connection. Recent research by my wife who has, become expert in utilizing the internet for thepwpose (whilst still retaining a healthy skepticism ofthe accuracy ofsome ofthe material) seems to show fairly conclusively that the Drakes who gave their name to the Drake-Broclanans were descendedfimn Sir Francis Drake's first cousin rather than his brother. Incidentally, I think Sir Francis did many but had no surviving children.-DW)

So you've got connections with the sailing world?

Yes. (Funnily, Frank always loved boating and the sea but his connections were fairly distant. His wife Frances (nee Riches), my mothe1~ who disliked the sea, came fiwn a family which had provided officers of the Royal Navy dating back to at least Napoleonic times. Her own father hadjoined the Merchant Navy because his · older brother was already in the Royal Navy and the family could not afford to put him in as well. After two voyages to Australia under sail he left the sea and became a surveyor and eventually Mining Warden and Stipendmy Magistrate in Marble Bar-D W)

So the Brockman family as you knew it as a young boy growing up would have been the grandmother you've already mentioned would it?

My grandmother ... that's where I stayed when my parents were in England in 1911.

She was a Brockman daughter did you tell me? Was she the Brockman or was her husband a Brockman?

No, she was a Bussell. She married a Brockman.

Let's go back to your Dad then and we can talk more now about the sorts of things you may know better because you might have actually helped experience them. When the family came to Bridgetown, do you know why he made the move to Bridgetown?

He was working for the Forestry Department then, he was a Forest Ranger and he had only just started and he and my mother lived with one of her brothers before he was married atNannup and I was born atNannup and when I was 9 months old they moved to Bridgetown. (The brother was Vernon Brockman later MLAfor Sussex 1933-38.-DW)

Was he moved there because of his job as a ranger?

I think so. Yes, that's basically why he moved. I suppose it was more central because it was a huge area he used to travel in those days. Mostly sulky, sometimes a buggy.

And had he done any specific training to be a ranger or was it just something you can start from scratch?

No, his brother-in-law was a Forest Ranger (Hugh Broclanan, another ofhis wife's brothers. -DW). In fact very much so. There was talk of him being the head of the business (the Forestly Departlnent) at the time that they brought Lane-Poole into the picture. They appointed Lane-Poole which was a damned silly move because he knew nothing about Australian forests. Nothing whatever and he was the man responsible for the policy of keeping fire out of the forest areas with the result, which he should have foreseen, that when they did get a fire it was devastating. I've seen the karri trees standing there absolutely dead. Killed by fire. People would hardly believe that but karri forest in its natural state has tremendous undergrowth and a tremendous lot of heat. When that gets going it gets right up the tree and the result is death to the tree.

And you're saying that to let small fires burn more frequently is a better idea?

Yes, every third year we used to reckon. We always burnt all our country because that policy had been scrubbed by then. After they had killed a hell of a lot of timber.

Tell me, just digressing on to that for a moment, have you heard the theory that the natural fires used to keep the dieback at bay? Do you know anything about that?

Yes. I think that the dieback ... of course, was very much later. That didn't start until ... I was in my 20s I suppose when we first came across this dieback. They didn't recognize what it was for a while because I remember travelling to Perth with a fellow... I think I was going up to buy a tractor, and we were discussing this. He said to me, "what do you think?" One of the Dousts it was, an old Bridgetown family. I said. "I don't know but they seem to think that it's all the clearing. It's caused a rise in the water table. He said, "what do you think?" I said, "I think it possibly is but I don't believe that is the only thing, I think there's something else. I don't know what it is. Because it seems to me to be spreading where you couldn't expect water to be the cause of the business. I think there is something more than that". Which turned out to be correct. I didn't know what it was. It's a thing that went through. Once caught it's no??? they get. (There are several points in this discussion that should be elaborated. Frank mentions the dense undergrowth in the natural kmriforest. In its original state, at the time ofthe first European settlement, the forests ofall types in the south-west were, in fact, ve1y open. There are accounts in the Brockman archives ofEdward Broe/an an taking his buggy and pair through the karri forest at high speed weaving through the tall trees. A fact that escaped many early foresters, including Lane-Poole, was that these so called pristine forests were totally man made, sculpted by thousands ofyears ofregular burning by aborigines in order to open them for hunting and provide fresh feed for the kangaroos and other game. As Europeans reduced the burning and also started to remove the overhead canopy by felling the trees a dense undergrowth ensued with the result that Frank describes. The cause ofdie back is an introduced root pathogen phytophthora cinnomomi. Unfortunately its identification was delayed by the forest politics of the time. The Forest Department, between the twenties andfrfiies, developed an understandable siege mentality in flying to stop the alienation and clearing of prime forest as had occurred in the Group Settlement Scheme. It suited them to claim that diebackwas caused by clearing and not to investigate more closely. I think the real cause was properly identified in the frfiies. It is a great pity that prejudice probably prevented its earlier discove1y as it may have been more easily contained. I sometimes th ink this is an object lesson to be remembered during more current debates such as global warming where an almost religious fervour has erupted with the age old theme ofsin, punishment and redemption at its core.-DW)

You told me on one occasion that you went for a trip with your father as ranger when you were a boy and I wonder if you would tell me more about that now in an effort to show what a ranger might do on his rounds?

Well we didn't see a great deal of that because we camped near Deeside which was the Muir's old home. Aud my father left us two kids playing about the place and went off on his job. Andrew Muir who was very much a friend ofmy father's came along in a waggon. He saw us kids playing out in the bush and he stopped and asked us who we were and we told him. "Oh, is your father here?" "Yes, yes, we camped here last night." So the result of that was that the next night we stayed at the Muir's. Us kids stayed at the Muirs while he did his job.

So you never did learn what was involved in being a forest ranger!

That's right. Of course one of his jobs, probably the main part ofit, all sleeper cutters had to be registered and they had to pay for a licence and he issued these licences. The way he did it, instead of them having to travel up to Bridgetown from wherever the fellow happened to be to obtain their licence, he used to carry the stuff with him and if he'd see a fellow cutting sleepers. "You got a licence?" "No." "Well you'd better get one, eh?" Well that's how he did it. He never had any trouble when he found somebody cutting, because they knew sooner or later he would turn up. Instead of them travelling all over the country looking for him they just waited and that was always how he handled it.

He'd have to collect a fee for that, would he on behalf of the Government?

Yes. Only a small fee, I think. A pound or something like that.

Did he have the power to refuse somebody a licence ifhe didn't like their work?

I suppose he would have, but I don't ever remember hearing that it had occurred because he was a sleeper cutter or he wasn't. Fellows that took it on that weren't able to do it properly, they left it themselves. You didn't have to sack them because they couldn't make a living. You had to cut a sleeper properly and they all had to be inspected. They were all inspected at the railway station they were shipped from and that was part ofmy father's job. He had a deputy, one oftbe Dousts worked under him and he did most of the inspecting (Inspection ofsleepers continued for many years to ensure that the quality was maintained. Each sleeper was turned and inspected on each side and then stamped with a metal die which was struck with a hammer on the end ofthe sleeper certifying that had been inspected. Each inspector had his own personal die. It was quite strenuous work especially with the long sleepers cutfor the Indian railways which had a five foot eight inch gauge. I think the sleepers were nine feet long and nine feet ofsolid green jarrah is very, very heavy. Jarrah was the principal timber used for sleepers although karri may have been used successfully overseas Karri was unsuitable in Australia due to its lack ofresistance to termites and rot. I think there may have been some experiments in its treatment with chemicals such as creosote applied underpressure but I don't think it was ever much used for railway sleepers (see later comments by Frank on attempts to use karri on the Trans-Australian railway) and indeed it was also unsuitable as a structural timber for homes etc in WAfor the same reason. When sm,mjarrah and karriplanks are placed side by side it is hard to distinguish between them and occasionally a piece ofkani would find its way into a building. I have seen this occur in one ofourfarm sheds. With in a couple ofyears termites had eaten the karri out leaving the jarrah untouched. If there was doubt ofthe identity ofa piece oftimber a good test used to be to burn a smallfi·agment. Jarrah burns with a black ash whereas Kmri leaves a white residue.-DW)

So his job as a ranger took him away for long periods of time from home?

Yes quite lengthy periods because as I said there were no motor cars in those days. He had to travel. .. right down to Denmark.

As far as Denmark? That's a big step from Bridgetown isn't it?

Yes. He used to be away quite a lot.

Even going to places like that with a sulky might not have been all that easy in those days?

Oh yes. Mainly on those long trips he took a buggy because he could carry his food and horse feed, chaff and that sort of thing in the buggy whereas the sulky would have been overloaded. When he went to Busselton there was a railway you see and he had a whole horse box that he used to travel down into that country as far as Busselton. That's as far as the rail went in those days and he had to go on down to M.C. Davies (pronounced Davis-DW). Have you ever heard of him?

No.

He was down at Karridale. He built a huge home at Karridale. Very well known family the Davies D-a-v-i-e-s but they always called themselves Davis not Davies.

So he would do this in all seasons would he or was it a seasonal occupation?

Oh no. All seasons.

M.C. Davies shipped from two ports. One at Flinders Bay and the other at Hamelin Bay. Hamelin Bay; they didn't use in the winter much. There was very little protection at Hamelin Bay whereas Flinders Bay was a big bay but it was well protected.

That must have been quite a task loading heavy things like sleepers before the days of modem machinery. Did you ever see that taking place?

Yes, yes. Saw it loaded in the ships at Busselton and at Flinders Bay.

So how would they get them from the bush to the sea?

In sleeper trucks. They were horse drawn vehicles. Big waggons would they be? A four wheeled wagon?

Some were four wheels and some were two wheeled drays.

And once they were at the sea coast in Flinders bay or Hamelin Bay were there jettys or not?

Hamelin Bay there was a jetty and Flinders ... ! don't remember a jetty at Flinders. I don't remember how they handled them there. There must have been a jetty I think before my memory of the place.

So would the horse vehicle go out on the jetty to the ship?

No. They were taken out by steam engines.

So, there was a railway line along the jetty?

If you've ever been to Busselton, there were two jetties and they joined and there used to be the railway jetty which had no hand rails or anything and it joined the other jetty further out so that the public could ... it didn't interfere with the public very much. When it first started they used to run on the jetty but it wasn't very good with kids out there. They could get run over.

So once the things were alongside I suppose the ship's own cranes or derricks would be able to handle it?

Yes. And they had to be stacked in the ships and the local loaders ... they had local people from Busselton.

(Maurice Coleman Davies was one of WA 's early entrepreneurs and industrialists. Incidentally, the reason they liked to have their name pronounced as DavIs was that the family was originally Jewish but somehow the spelling had been Anglicised (or perhaps that should be Welshified). MC. had several sons based overseas as well as in Australia. MC. Davies put together a very large timber operation in the southwest with a big sawmill at Karridale as well as Boran up and several other locations. Frank speaks of the sleepers being taken to the ports by horse drawn vehicles but I am fairly sure that there were railway lines from mills to both ports from fairly early times. Perhaps that was not always the case but steam engines and railways were usedfrom a ve1y early time in the timber industry in WA. The "Ballarat" which is one ofthe earliest locomotives used in WA and now stands in a park near the entrance to Busselton was used in a similar operation at Wonnerup where there was another jetty. There was also a jetty at Quindaltp. Both these were operated by other companies. Movement oftimber on an industrial scale as done by MC. Davies and others when not done by rail was, I think, usually done by bullock teams rather than horses. Horses were used when sleepers were cut by hand and transported in small numbers as Frank describes elsewhere. Bullocks are much better at hauling a large dead weight load than horses which are inclined to rush with the load. As these loads were often hauled over rough unmade tracks and through bogs and other obstacles the bullocks were more suited to the job. Horse are better/or moving lighter loads at faster speeds.

The Davies ente1prise supported a whole town at Karridale and MC. Davies even had his own currency with which employees could purchase goods from the Company stores. This came in for some criticism of course which led to the passing of the Truck Act in 1899 which prohibited the payment ofemployee's wages in any other/mm than money. Although the southwest timber companies were specifically mentioned in connection with this legislation there was considerable evidence that MC. Davies treated their employees well and did not exploit the situation. There was also evidence ofabuses in the goldfields. The remnants of the town were destroyed in the bushfires in 1962 in the same summer that Dwellingup was razed by buslifires.

MC Davies was a significant figure in south west WA and among all his other achievements played a leading role in having the CapeLeeuwin lighthouse built which was done by his company in partnership with Wishhart's, an Adelaide and Suva (Fiji) based construction and engineeringfinn with whom MC. Davies had been associated on several projects..

The Willmotts knew the Davies family well especially Frank's uncle and aunt, Percy and Margaret (Maggie) who were close friends ofone ofMC's sons, Herbert Davies and his family. One ofHerbert's sons (also Herbert) lived in Bridgetown and I grew up /mowing some ofMC. 's great-grandchildren well.

I have always understood that Flinders Bay was the winter port as it was protected from the winter stonns and Hamelin Bay was mostly used in summer. However, as Frank says it was open to the north-west and as anyone who is familiar with that coast /mows, there can be fierce north-west storms in both summer and winter which blow up with little warning, especially in the days when there were no weather forecasts. So it is not su,prising that on 22nd July 1900 a number ofships were caught in Hamelin Bay by a severe storm and three barques were wrecked or driven ashore with the loss offive lives. Divers have discovered the resting places ofseveral ofthe ships in recent years.

I think by the time Frank's father commenced his career as a Forest Ranger the great days ofthe Davies empire were well past. The Karridale Mill closed early in the centwy and Boranup in 1910. MC Davies died on 10th May 1913.

It is interesting to note that the beautifitl Boranup karriforest on Caves Road is in an area that was largely clear felled by MC. Davies in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

I used to go fishing at Flinders Bay and Hamelin Bay in my youth (the 1950s) and in those days there was a lot of the old jetty at Hamelin Bay still standing and a few fi·agments at Flinders Bay, Wonnerup and Quindalup.

I think the building ofthe "skeleton jetty" at Busse/ton and the removal ofrail traffic from a lot ofthe main jetty had more to do with the location ofthe railway yards and Busse/ton Railway Station than concern for public safety. Ofcourse the first section of the old jetty out to the junction with the railway jetty in Busse/ton was totally destroyed by cyclone "Alby" in 1978. This occurred because rotten piles etc ceased to be replaced once the railway was removed and after some fifty or sixty years or so the jetty was left resting on ve,y little to secure it.

Finally a humourous st01y from my own childhood. At that time World War II was raging and at one stage Hitler boasted that the Gennans were developing "secret weapons" with which he would turn the tide of the war, which by this time was running against Germany. He predicted devastating attacks would soon occur. I must have been staying with my grandmothe,~ Frank's mother, who was by this time living in Busse/ton. The old "Ballarat" steam engine then stood in another park nearer to the foreshore and some wag had chalked on it in large letters "Hitler's Secret Weapon". From then on and up into my children's childhood it was always referred to in the family by that name. Ofcourse Hitler's secret weapons did exist and consisted of the VIflying bombs and V2 ballistic missiles as well as jet aeroplanes. The allies also feared he was developing atomic weapons, which fears proved to be groundless but provided some ofthe impetus to finish Germany before turning the full might against Japan. It was only the allied progress across western Europe and heavy bombing ofmissile factories and launch sites together with Germany's declining industrial strength which prevented a much more devastating result especially in Britain which came under sustained attackfi·om "doodlebugs"-VIjlying bombs-as well as V2s which fell without warningfi·om the sky. They were no joke.-DW) Further information on the MC. Davies ente,prise as well as the hist01y ofthe Augusta-Margaret River area may be found in "The Light ofthe Leeuwin- the Augusta-Margaret River Shire Hist01y" by Gail J Cresswell published by the Augusta_Margaret River Shire History Group. Forward dated 1989. There is a two volume hist01y ofBusse/ton by Rodger Jennings entitled "Busse/ton 'An Outstation on the Vasse 1830-1850'" and "Busse/ton 'A Place to Remember 1850-1914"' both published by the Shire ofBusselton.

Tape4 SideB So the sleepers that they were loading. Where were they destined for? Were they going to be used on our railway development elsewhere in the State or were they to go overseas?

A lot of them went overseas but when they started to build the "Trans" (Tra11s-Australia11) line they had a big mill at Pemberton. That's what started the Pemberton going. I went there when it was being built with my father on one of his trips and they found out that they (karri sleepers) were absolutely useless because the white ants ... to a white ant a piece of karri is like a chocolate cream is to us. They go for it. I've seen where one piece of karri has been let into a building. When they were building they never noticed it was a piece of karri. They look very alike. And I have seen the white ants strip that neatly out and never bother the other at all. That's what happened to the sleepers on the Trans line. They put them in and they were absolutely useless. They had to redo them with jarrah sleepers.

And I was reading the other day that they used to replace sleepers anyway about every ten years on the Trans line so there would have been a constant demand.

Yes. Oh, yes. They were milling them. That's why that Pemberton mill was built to cut karri sleepers but they changed them to jarrah sleepers because the karri ... the white ants loved it. They must have swallowed a lot of timber. (I seem to remember a process that was developed in Pemberton called "Powellising", I suppose after the chap that developed it. I think it consisted ofpressure injecting creosote or similar in an attempt to overcome the problem but I don't think it was very successful. Reading what Frank has said and other sources, I have to wonder ifpreviously they had successfully used karrifor sleepers overseas, perhaps where termites were not a problem as it seems strange that the problems really only came to light when the Trans was being built around 1915-16. The Trans-Australian Railway was completed during the Great War in fulfillment ofa promise made to Western Australia at the time of Federation. No doubt its importance was elevated by the war.-DW)

Now your father had interests other than forest ranging didn't he? You told me he had a motor agency for example for the T-model?

Oh yes. That's when he was a farmer. Not that he did much of the farming. I think I mentioned a fellow by the name ofHiggius who went to see them for their first couple of weeks into their new home. He stayed there for nine years. You see, my father was away most of the time or a great deal of the time and old Johnny ... he was the hardest working man I ever knew. All his life. Because my father got him a job with a great-aunt of mine. He said, "if you want a man then you get Johnny Higgins. He's living in Nannup with his brothers now, or one of his brothers and there's only one thing about him. He can't work with other men. He needs to be on his own to be any good. He'd run your place and you'd never have to worry about it at all." And he did. He did it for years and a cousin of mine (William Henry Francis WillmottMLAforSussex 1938-47 lmown as Hemy.-DW) took the place over eventually. Johnny still worked for him. He worked for the Willmott family or their relations practically the whole of his life. (There was a family stmy about one ofthe Nannup Higgins, I am not sure whether it was Johnny or not. As a baby th is child was taken from its crib which had been put out in the garden, by a large pig. It was fortunate to survive this as pigs can be very dangerous. The child bore scarsfi·om this encounter for the rest of its life. Apparently they were in the region ofthe navel and it was a common greeting in the Willmottfamily for boys ofmy generation to be asked by men of the family as a greeting; "How's your belly where the pig bit you?" Jfyou queried this your navel would be pointed to as evidence. Leg pulling was the family sport in my childhood.-DW)

So that freed your father to have the other interests that he had. Did you tell me also that he had some so1t ofbusiness in town? In Bridgetown?

He built and owned the pub and the main shop and the house that the fellow that rented the shop ... he built him a house up a little distance away. He was obviously a very enterprising fellow because to come as a young lad here and then to get into business to the extent that he did. How did that happen?

He had it in him I think. I don't think his brother was quite the same. He suffered more from gout than my father. My father suffered from gout but his older brother suffered much worse. He spent a lot of his time ... because I remember staying there one time when I was a lad. Went out with one of his sons. He came into Busselton to pick up stores and I rode out with him and I rode back with his sister into Busselton. Kids, I was twelve years old. Rode out and rode back with the girl a couple of years older than me. Quite take it in your stride you know. (Frank's grandfather Rev Henry Willmott had died ofthe effects ofgout aged 39 in 1873 and many members ofthe family have suffered from this hereditary form ofarthritis including Frank's older brother Sykes who was severdy affected by it. In fact every member ofFrank's generation, male and female, of both families, with the sole exception ofFrank himselfsuffered from it to some extent and several members oflater generations have also been afflicted by it. Fortunately, better treatment ofthis horribly painful condition is available today.-DW)

It's so different for kids these days. They're not allowed to do that sort of thing because parents are scared ofwhat will happen to them.

Yes I suppose so but we never ... brought up that way. Never thought ofit. (The trip Frank talks aboutfimn Busse/ton to Margaret River and back was on horse back ofcourse. It was a bit special and he often talked about it and especially the ride back with his cousin, Madge Willmott. I th ink when he was just out ofschool he and his brother Joe rode to and from Busse/ton from Bridgetown several times, a much longer trip.-DW)

Any way as far as the other interests that your Dad had. The hotel for example. Was that sub-let to a licencee or did he run it himself

Oh, no. He never ran it, oh no, he never ran the pub or any of the other businesses. He just leased them. (Frank mentions the shop adjacent to the hotel which was one ofthe town's largest general stores. It was run by John F Smith in my childhood and sold everythingfi·om hardware to groceries, drapery, footwear, clothes and almost anything needed in those simpler days. But in addition to that there were several other smaller shops on the other (north) side ofthe hotel. In my memory they housed a men's hairdresser and tobacconist, and early Elder Smith & Co offices. I think there may have been at least one other shop.-DW)

He must have had a fair bit of capital behind him perhaps to manage to do that?

Yes. It came from his sister. They had nothing, the two brothers when they came out to Australia. But their elder sister for many years looked after an old friend, a Miss Morrison, and when she died she left their sister quite a lot of money. Quite a lot of money, something like 50,000, which in those days was lot of money. So she immediately sent 5000 to each of her brothers and that gave them their start. That's where he got the money. He built a pub and the shops. The other brother built a house. It's amusing because in my father's day the pub and the shops he owned gave him a good income. His brother built a house. It gave him nothing but it gave his kids a fortune. The house was sold for a million. So it's always amused us. One fellow got a pub but the other, he was dead of course, the family became quite wealthy. (The house was, ofcourse, "Basildene", in Margaret River now known by the grander title of "Basildene Manor". It was sold by Percy's grandson at a fi·action ofits present value but a lot ofmoney at the time. The stmy ofthe inheritance from England is a long one with origins reaching back to Frank's great-great­ great-great grandfather Francis Sykes 1st Baronet ofBasildon in Berkshire who was one ofthe Indian Nabobs ofthe era of Warren Hastings and Robert Clive both ofwhom were closefi·iends ofhis. Frank's aunt did indeed inherit 50,000 as Miss Morrison's will attests. Miss M01rison 's total estate in 1910 was 2,355,955.00 which in today's money would be about A$300,000,000. Frank's aunt Henrietta-Ettie-later man-ied Sir Thomas Lewis, a magistrate of Cardiff in Wales and brother ofLord Merthyr who was a leader ofthe Welsh coal indushy.-DW)

Now, when these buildings were built in Bridgetown was the town fairly well developed at that stage?

Well it had four pubs! Which describes it pretty much. It was pretty busy place, Bridgetown, in those days. Because of the apples of course. Many thousands and thousands of cases of apples were shipped to England every year from Bridgetown.

So you're saying that there were plenty oflabourers or workers there to patronise the pubs?

Oh, yes. Never anybody needed to be without a job. Very seldom any unemployed around Bridgetown because they had all the orchards they worked on. Quite labour intensive of course, orchard work.

Just picking up on the trip that your folks made. They went to England in 1911 I think you told me?

Yes.

How did that arise? Would you like to talk about that for a moment?

My father's brother and his family had been only two or three years before. It was the first time they'd ever revisited England. They hadn't seen their mother for years and after the older brother came back my father decided they'd go and they took my older brother and my sister who was the oldest of the family with them and Joe, my younger brother and I, were left at my grandmother's. (I don't think it is a coincidence that both trips took place around the time ofMiss Morrison's death in 1910. Percy and his family visited in 1910.-DW)

And that was quite a big undertaking in those days and quite a slow trip compared with now.

Oh, goodness yes, It got faster too. I flew out from England. I went by sea with my wife to England and unfortunately my wife died on the trip. She died in England. I flew home and took thirty-six hours. Stopped in Rome and ... always forget the name of that place ... and then a final stop in Calcutta so it was quite a lengthy trip. (I took Frank back to England for a six week visit in 1978 when our only stop in each direction was in Bombay. That flight was in a Boeing 747 jumbo jet whereas his earlier flight was in a Boeing 707, the first jet airliner used by Qantas which was slower and had a sh011er range. I think his other stop on that flight may have been in Beirut or Karachi or possibly Rome.-DW)

Now, I think its cut back to something like nineteen or twenty hours isn't it?

Yes, something like that.

So, your father went by ship I should imagine and he'd have gone ....how long would he have taken?

I think they were seven weeks because it was the last trip for the ship they went on, the old "China" and they struck a fearful storm. A lot of them thought they would never come through it. They were blown hundreds of miles off course and they were waiting in Aden for the ship to tum up. They had just about given up hope of her. They reckoned she'd gone down. When she got there they were surprised, (Frank doesn't mention that his father was a ve,y poor sailor. He went back to England on his own once more in about 1928 and Frank put him on the ship. Frank said hisfatherwas seasick before the ship left the wha,f! Frank himselfwas a good sailor and I don't think ever suffered from seasickness in small or large vessels a characteristic which I happily inherited.-D W)

So they were going through the Suez? Yes,

How long in total were they away, leaving you with your grandmother?

They sailed sometime in May and they arrived back in Busselton only a day or two before Christmas.

A good long trip. Tell me now about your father and his personality. What smt of a chap was he? How would you describe his personality?

Well like most of the Willmotts he had a temper. Quite a fiery temper. So did my mother for that matter. But, he'd fly off the handle, tell you off and then forget all about it. No sulking about him, you know. Quite easy to get on with really because ... "oh, it'll blow over!"

Can you remember some of the things that were distinctive about him in the way of things he said to you or things that he preached about, things he believed in.

Yes. I can remember very clearly one of the things he believed in. The use of correct English. State School teachers in those days were not the best at English and he'd correct me all the time. I'd say, "that's what the teacher said." And he'd say, "well, don't you take any notice of the teacher, she doesn't know what she's talking about." And he was always, with all of us, you had to speak correct English.

He had had a fairly good education himself7

Yes. Although he came out at sixteen he'd been in a good preparatory school; boarding. At a rather famous school in Sussex. Hurstpierpoint. (When Frank refers to Hurstpierpoint as a preparatmy school he is probably referring to its function of preparing young men for enhy into the A1my. His father apparently failed in an attempt to enter the Almy prior to coming to WA. I presume he sought entry to Sandhurst as several ofhis Sykes cousins and his well loved god-father Colonel Percival Brown would have encouraged him. Of course it has to realised that in those days the only careers really open to young men oftheir social status were, the Army, the Navy or the Church. He probably already realised that he would not enjoy the Navy due to seasickness and he certainly had no calling to the Church. Quite the contrary! So whether his attempt to enter the A,my was serious orjust to please other people is unknown.-DT¥)

What about things like his religious beliefs?

He had no religious belief. He didn't believe in it.

That was a bit unusual for his time wasn't it?

Yes. I think so because his father was a clergyman. He didn't remember him. He died when my father was two years old or so. But it's funny that he had no time at all for the Church or the clergy. Funny thing, he had no time for them at all. His mother being the wife ofa clergyman was a bit inclined to be ... and his brother wasn't exactly a non-believer. My father was an absolute non­ believer in religion. He wouldn't have it on at any price and I think I...

Or learnt it from him! (Frank once told me that his father's dislike ofreligion was partly caused by the fact that when his grandfather died his grandmother became heavily involved with the Church and his father felt that the family's lives had been taken over. He resented this and continued to throughout his life.-DT¥)

Was he a great reader?

Yes, both my parents were great readers. I wonder whether he might have been a disciple of people who were writing against religion at that time. Do you remember anything like that?

No I don't remember anything like that. The funny part was that the Church of England parson in Bridgetown and my father were quite good friends ... they were both mechanically minded. They both had Ford cars. The first Ford car was owned by the parson and the second Ford car, bought two or three years later was owned by my father. He bought two. He bought one for the Doctor too. So there were three cars in Bridgetown. Until somebody bought an Overland. But the Overland didn't last, they had trouble with it. Funny thing, Henry Ford had a success with his first car. It was successful both as a bush car and in the city. (The T-modelwas notHemyFordsfirstcar but it was the first car ofany make to be produced in significant numbers and Ford's assembly line production methods revolutionised manufacturing throughout the world although contrary to popular opinion he did not invent it. Frank also mentions his father's mechanical bent. This along with politics has been a characteristic ofthe family for a very long time with several members who should have pursued engineering careers. Letters written by Frank's ancestor William Willmott in the 1770s show a similar interest in innovation and improved technology in the Sherborne SilkMills.-DW.).

Worldwide too.

Worldwide. And a kid could handle it. I drove it at ten years old and knew a good deal about it. You had to. Because it would stick you up and if you didn't know what was the matter you walked home!

There weren't any mechanics around.

No. There wasn't a mechanic in Bridgetown. There were only three cars.

So, continue with your father and mother's beliefs. What about his political position?

He was very strongly against Labor. Strongly. It's a funny thing ... he was a member of the Country Party. As a matter of fact ... I was going to say he was the irrst leader but he wasn't. They appointed some other leader because my father had only just gone in but the other leader couldn't get on with anybody. It was only a matter of a few weeks, I think, when they appointed my father as leader.

That was in the Parliament in Western Australia?

Yes.

So, when would he have gone into Parliament.

1912. That's right I think ... when did the war start?

1914.

Yes. Well it was 1912 or 1913. It was before the war.

He was in before the war?

Yes.

That was very early for the Country Party. The Country Party is a very long lived party isn't it. It goes right back into that first decade.

Yes it started ... he was in the first start of the Country Party. The others ... what did they call them? Well there was the ... I don't know about Western Australia so much but there were the Deakin Liberals and the Free Traders. There was Fusion Liberal Party too which came out of those two. Apart from Labour of course.

They afterwards called them selves the Liberal Party. What is the Country Party called today?

The National Party.

That's right. That's what the Liberals were called in the early days. The National Party. I think it all came as a result of the war. Because they had a non-party government in Western Australia. They wiped parties out and it was all-party government. That's how it got the name of the National Party and they stuck to that then for a while and then they changed back to Liberal. Immediately they did, the Country Party called themselves the Nationals! (Unfortunately, Frank's recollection ofthese events is a bit confused and indeed written histories give varied accounts of these times which were well before Frank's own political career ofwhich he retained good memories. A briefsumma,y ofthe events, as I understand them. is as follows: Politics throughout Australia in the early days ofthe twentieth centwy were very corifitsed with constantly changing alliances and a succession ofshort lived governments both Federally and in WA. Between 1900 and 1911 there were ten changes ofPremier in WA. In 1911 theScaddanLabor Government was elected and lasted until 1916 when Labor was riven by the conscription issue and a number ofLabor members including Scaddan himselfdefected to the newly fanned Nationalist Party (not National as Frank says). In 1920 Scaddan joined the Countly Party. The Nationalist Party was formedfiwn the earlier Liberal League and was mooted as a non-party government. Its fonnation led to divisions in the Countly Party as well as the Labor Party when several Count,y Party Members (including Frank's father) accepted minist,·ies in the Lef,-oy Government. Throughout its hist01y the Counhy/National Party has been divided on two fundamental issues, tariffprotection and whether to participate in coalitions or sit on the cross benches. The Nationalist governments which followed the Labor split were never non-party because the bulk of the Labor Party did notparticipate and remained in opposition. Frank's father was among the first eight members ofthe Countly Party to be elected to the Legislative assembly in October, 1914 although two CountlyPartyMLC's had been elected in May ofthat year. The first leader was James Gardiner who had previously been a minister in the James ministly in 1902. He was then the memberforAlbany. He was out ofParliamentfi·om 1902 until elected as the memberfor Irwin in Octobe,~ 1914. He has been described as, "progressive, able and experienced" (" Coalition or Crossbench "-Ron J Elphick 1996). The same writer also says he tried to keep the party in the centl·e by "supporting Labor legislation for the good ofthe State". This latter comment probably explains his early demise as leader as there was a strong opposition to this policy by a number of Count,y Party members including Frank's father. Frank's father became leader in March 1915 and left the leadership in July 1919 (Elphick says 1917). He was a Minister without porifolio in the Lefi·oy, Colebatch and first Mitchell minist,·iesfi·om 28th June 1917 until 13th April 1921 after he lost the seat ofNelson at the General Election. He entered the Legislative Council as a memberfor Southwest Province a few months later at a by-election and was defeated for this seat in 1925 and left politics for good although he continued to play an active part in the Fruitgrowers Association and other local affairs for many years prior to his death on 29th January, 1941. Interestingly, he was joined in his contl-oversial acceptance ofa ministerial position in the Lefroy Government by James Gardiner, his predecessor as leader. He was also a Justice ofthe Peace. Frank, ofcourse, held one ofthe same Southwest Province seats in the Legislative Councilfor nineteen years and was only ever opposed at his first election in 1955. Frank was a Liberal who had little time for his father's old party which he regarded as often acting against the long term interests ofrural people in the pursuit ofpopularity. Like his father he was strongly opposed to socialism and regarded the Count,y Party as too ready to embrace socialistic remedies to rural problems. Incidentally, Frank is a little unfair in saying that the Counhy Party changed its name in consequence of the fonnation ofthe modern Liberal Party in 1944. The Countly Party continued under that name for many years afte1wards, in WA enduring several splits and other upheavals until the modern. National Party emerged in 1984. The Nationalist/Liberal Party too has gone through a number ofchanges ofname and sometimes had a different Federal name to that used at a State level. One attempt at amalgamation with the Country Party in the late forties and early fifties led to the State party being known as the Liberal Country League (LCL) for a number ofyears.-DW) References: "Coalition or Crossbench" by Ron J Elphick published by the National Party of Australia (WA) Inc. 1996. The Western Australian Parliamentary Handbook-Thirteenth edition. The Biographical Register of Members of the Parliament of Western Australia, Volume One 1870- 1930 (Revised Edition) by David Black and Geoffrey Bolton. Further insights into rural politics of the era can be found in "Senator Bertie Johnston" by John C Rice privately published by his family. 2006.

Yes. Of course in those days their electorate ... the rural electorate was of very much bigger importance than now.

Problems with hearing aid.

I was just saying that the electorate in those days was made up of a lot more country people than it is proportionately today.

Yes, oh yes. That's how the Country Party became the Country Party and it was pretty important. They had a good deal of say in the government of the country in those days.

Did your father ever talk about any of the Federal leaders of that time. What was his opinion about Federation? Do you know?

Yes I know what his opinion was. Western Australia should never have joined it. That was his opinion and I think he stuck to that and rightly so in many ways too because Western Australia got a raw deal out of Federal Parliament when it got started. "Western Australia, pouf don't worry about them!" But Western Australia built itself up plenty more than they ever thought it would. The finding of gold is what made Western Australia and there was a movement for the goldflelds to leave Western Australia and join the eastern states. But it never got very far. Come to think of it, it makes sense because the Nullabor might as well be an ocean for what contact you had in those days.

Yes, it even took you a couple of weeks to go by ship to Melbourne didn't it?

That's right, yes. We were pretty isolated.

Now, your father would have known some of the characters in that early period, the first decade. People like Forrest and Parker.

Oh, yes. Knew Forrests very well. (John Forrest's wife was Frank's mother's cousin and apparently the Willmotts often called at the Forrest home in Perth. See my 1988 interview with Frank for further information about Sir James Mitchell. He did not remember Lord Forrest who died in 1918-DW)

Can you think of some of the other people that were leading lights that were perhaps friendly with him then?

Oh, yes ... Scullin, do you remember Scullin? (I think Frank is referring to John Scaddan-D W)

Yes.

A Labor man.

Labor Prime minister 1930ish. Well when they formed a non-party government Scullin (Scaddan) left the Labor Party. He reckoned they were too one eyed. Didn't suit him at all. He became a National.(Nationalist and later Counhy Party-DW)

You're not thinking of Billy Hughes?

No. Although I met Billy Hughes. I knew him. He came and stayed at our house. He ,vas a character, Billy Hughes. I can see him now. He made a speech in Bridgetown and I can remember him making his points. He would always pick his point out of the air. I can see him now. (Billy Hughes was another Labor leader (Prime Minister) who left the Labor Party during the great conscription split. It would be interesting to search the local Bridgetown newspape1~ "The Blackwood Times",fora report ofa meeting in Bridgetown which might have taken place at that time. I have heard that at one stage Frank's father was the Minister with responsiblity for recruiting for the Anny in WA during the Great War. Many of those kinds offunctions were still handled by the States for some time after Federation in 1901. Ofcourse by the Second World War recruiting was entirely the province ofthe Federal Government-DW)

With a thumb and forefinger?

Just a peculiar gesture he had of picking the points out of the air.

And what was your father's attitude to him? How did they get on? Your father, did he get on well with Billy?

Yes. One was Federal and the other was State but they got on pretty well.

And you said Billy stayed at your place?

Yes. He was on a trip over here and he stayed in the house at Bridgetown.

When would that have been, Frank?

I think it must have been somewhere about the beginning of the war, I suppose.

So Hughes would still have been with Labor then?

No. No he wasn't so it must have been a later time.

He changed towards the end of the First World War, didn't he? He left the Labor Party just towards the end of the war really.

Yes. That's right it wasn't the beginning of the war it was the end of the war.

Did your father have an opinion about the conscription issue that was so important in the First World War?

Yes, I think that he, like most other people, was against conscription, but I think by the time it came to the Second World War most people were in favour of conscription, because they just viewed it as a means of a shirker continuing to shirk. And in a thing like a war, I am a bit of a believer in a thing like compulsion. But there are a lot of outlets. I volunteered for the Army and my younger brother did and he got in and I thought, well, that doesn't make sense anyway, he won't last. And he didn't. Of course, they found he'd had rheumatic fever and he'd had this and he'd had that, so they kicked him out. So I said, "well now I'll go." I didn't get to first base. They knocked me back. "You go home and work that bloody farm, that's what you're doing." And I suppose that was the right thing to do. Successful farmers they reckoned, "you've got more important things to do." (Frank's younger brother, Joe, never enjoyed good health and died in his early fifties as did his older· brother, Sykes, who suffered ve,y badly ji-om gout. Frank lived on to over I 00 years ofage and became the first Janner member of the WA Parliament to do so. He was given a special afternoon tea at Parliament House in honour ofthe occasion which all ofhis family were able to attend. By coincidence 2004 was also the centena,y of the opening ofParliament House and Frank's birthday in Janua,y was the first ofseveral events marldng the occasion.-DW}

Well, the army marches on its tummy doesn't it and the farmers look after that

Yes, well they feed them. That's the point you see. There wasn't much grown in the way of food; not real food, in England in those days, not for the population.

End of tape 4 Side B

Tape 5 Side A Tuesday, 1ot1i April, 2001

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number five in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing Home, Mount Lawley. Tape Five is being recorded at Sandstrom on Tuesday, April 1ot1i, 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott's grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

FATHER'S CAREER AND MOTHER

We spoke briefly about your father going into Parliament last week but we didn't talk about it in any detail so I wondered if you could tell me what are your first memories of his being interested in becoming a politician. When did you know he was interested and so on.

Well I think he first showed interest with the formation of the Country Party That was the start of his interest as I remember it. But there were two candidates for it. They had to have selection committee and my father won that fairly easily.

Was that selection held locally or was it held in Bunbury or where was it held?

No, in those days it was held in the various centres. I suppose it was done by mail. I don't really know that but I remember him quoting the figures. I can remember that quite clearly and it was quite obvious that he was going to win it by a street.

And this was a lower House seat that he was contesting?

Yes and he finally was defeated in that seat and then he stood for Legislative Council and won that and was a member there for 5 years. He lost that, it was really the same sort of feud then as has continued since between the Country Party and Liberal. They always tried to stamp on the Country Party and Jim Mitchell was fairly successful in stamping on my father both in the Lower House and finally in the Council and he defeated him in both. Not personally but there was a swing for the Country Party when my father stood and there was a swing against him when he was defeated. Now I don't remember exactly what the differences were between them in those days but I found out there were vast differences when I got into Parliament myself. If the Country Party was like that in the early days, which I rather doubt, it was no wonder he lost his seat because you couldn't depend on them. Now I found when I was there .. . I stood as a Liberal of course and always a couple of the Country Party would vote with Labor. You could name the three or four. You knew two of them would vote for Labor when it really came to the pinch and that taught me a lesson about the Country Party.

Well coming back to your Dad then, I think you told me he went in to Parliament about 1912. Was that correct?

When did the war start?

!914.

Yes, it would be 1912 then I think. (Frank's father entered Parliament at the General Election of21 st October 1914; two months after the start ofthe Great War. It hadprobably barely registered in WA then.-DW)

And how long was he in that Lower House seat, was he there for more than one term for example?

I think he was there for seven years. (Until the General Election 12th March 1921.-DW)

That would be two parliamentary terms in those days would it?

Yes it would be, but they added ... the war was on and that's why they never held an election. That's why it gets odd numbers, otherwise it would be normally three years but they made it seven years for the second term there, they made it seven years. (The 1921 election was late and began the tradition of holding elections Februmy-April which has continued to the present day. The only exception was 1943 which was the only election held between 1939 and 1947, again due to war. An election had been held as nonnal in 1917 and that was the election campaign on which Frank talks about accompanying his father.­ DW)

That was due to the war?

Yes.

Do you remember anything of his campaigning for that seat?

In his second. Not very much about the first election - I was a bit young. But the second time I travelled with him quite a lot on his campaign. You know the roads were pretty terrible in those days. We travelled by Ford car and we spent more time pushing it out of the bog and stuff. I think the only other time I ever remember getting into the same sort of situation was some years after he was finished with Parliament. He was travelling the same country through and I learned what it was to be in winter in the southwest in those days, because they used to hold the elections right at the end of the winter and the roads were absolutely impassable. As far as we got, the first stop for the night, was Deeside. Muirs. And that was about as far as we got with the car. We had to walk the last two miles; she went down and stuck. Andrew Muir was a great friend ofmy father's. He came with two horses and pulled her out of the bog and pulled her into Manjimup, put her on the train and went from there. From there we had a surveyor, they had a driver there. He was away on some other job and he drove my father all over the blessed place.

In what sort of vehicle was that?

A high wheeled wagonette type of vehicle. Three horses and I can remember the leader. There were two on the pole and this leader out in front and he was a horse and a half that fellow. It was bog and stuff and he'd get on to the roots and he'd heave them out. You left the problem to the horse ... to the leader and he'd get through.

Amazing what they can do. He went to Deeside campaigning and can you tell me what was the whole trip in total that he went to campaign?

Oh it was huge area in those days. It was the seat of Nelson. From Balingup right down through the Warren, all that country. Pemberton. It was all in the electorate in those days.

And what was his opposition? How many people were standing against him in that early time, in the first election?

One. Labor opposition. Same as I got when I stood.

And was it a fairly conclusive result? Yes it was in the start. He won it fairly comprehensively. Because, as I said, the Country Party .. .it was the first election for them too.

And I suppose that would have been very popular amongst the farmers.

Yes it was very popular. That's why the seat was won. Amongst the farmers. And a lot of other people too, because they were country people took to the Country Party because the forerunner of the Liberals, I can't remember what they called themselves now, it wasn't Liberal ... had it on the tip of my tongue then.

That wasn't the days of the protectionists was it?

No.

Or Free Traders?

No. More a personal thing I think. It's a bit hard to understand the way the people took to the Country Party in the early days when it first started. They thought that anything to do with the city, they were "agin it". Because they never got much sympathy from the city for their problems in the early days and when a Country Party stood up, they went for it. (I don't think the protectionist vs free trade debate ever gained traction in WA as there was little manufacturing. Most Western Australians were opposed to protection because it raised costsforfmmers and miners. The Country Party was very outspoken in early years and Senator Bertie Johnston railed against tariffe until his death in 1942. One ofhis prime targets was the sugar indushy in Queensland but, ofcourse, later Count,y Party politicians, notably Sir John McEwen, were strong supporters ofprotection and the party policy became subsidies for manufacturing and compensation offarmers for the effects. A contradict01y policy ifever there was one.-DW)

Well now when your father was elected what sort of differences did that make to your life at home?

Well the difference it made to me. It put a lot more on my shoulders because I had an older brother but he was educated in England. So I was more or less under my mother's direction. She was a born farmer. I was doing things like milking the cows and feeding the horses at night after the men had gone home. That all fell on me.

You still had men working on the farm?

Yes, but at that time no one living on the farm which was only a mile and a half from the town and so they used to go home at night.

And how long was your father away each time when he went to Parliamentary sittings? Could he come home for example at weekends?

Sometimes. Sometimes he'd be away ... too far to come just for the weekend.

How long would it have taken in those days to get from Perth to Bridgetown?

Sometimes you'd do it in a day, sometimes you wouldn't. It'd be a full day's trip if things were all right. But if anything went wrong you didn't get there.

And what about trains, was the train possible?

Oh yes, the train always ran. In fact he always travelled by train in the early days of his parliamentary life. So the train you are saying would take that length of time, it was a day trip on the train?

Yes. From memory it left about nine o'clock in the morning and you'd get to Perth ... sometimes it would be dark in the winter, in the summer it would be light.

And was it a goods train as well as a passenger service?

It was not an entirely passenger service, it was mixed. They picked up a lot of fruit and that sort of thing at wayside stations.

That's what would have taken up the time I suppose.

Yes it meant loading stuff in the stations, a lot of them, it would take up a lot of time.

Now your father was in Perth a lot of the time for his parliamentary business. Did you see anything of that side of his life? Did you visit him at Parliament House or that sort of thing at all?

Not at the start but my brother and I would often sit in on the parliament to see what went on, we were interested in it.

Was that when you were at Hale?

Yes.

It was pretty close to Hale wasn't it?

Yes, we used to walk. The boarding house for Hale in those days was separate from the school. The boarding house was down in George Street opposite the Barracks and the day school was up in Havelock Street.

So just a shmt walk from Parliament?

Yes we used to walk up ... there were steps leading up from the Barracks to the level of Parliament. We used to climb those in preference to walking over the sandhills to school.

The Parliament House itself was complete then but none of the frontage? Is that right? Was the Parliament House completely built at that stage?

Oh, no. After I went in there it was built quite extensively. It was a very small place in my father's day.

So who were some of his colleagues in the Lower House in that first term?

The only one who comes to mind readily is the man whose son and he represented a seat for 40 odd years. Baxter, Charlie Baxter and his son who came and saw me here about twelve months ago I suppose. Norman Baxter. That's the name.

Was he elected at the same time as your father? The older Baxter senior?

I think that he was probably. He must have been elected at the same time I think, yes. (Charles Baxter was a member ofthe Legislative Council which in those days and for many years afte,wards had separate elections from the Legislative Assembly. Charles Baxter was elected as a Countly Party member in May 1914 before Frank's father and held the seat unopposed until 1950. The seat of Central Province was held by Charles Baxter and his son Norman until 1983 with a break oftwo years from 1958. A total of sixty-seven years.-DW) So do you remember the proportion of Country Party to others in that first term?

No I wouldn't remember.

So they were still a minority party with free enterp1ise or business interests?

The Liberals? Yes, I don't think either the Country Party or the Liberals would ever hold their seat just by themselves, they were always a coalition. I think it always has been. (A ve1y stormy one at times, especially in opposition.-DW)

So overall? how long was your father in office? I think you said five years and then seven, was that right?

No, it was altogether 12 years but his time in the Legislative Council was because he went in at a by­ election. I think it was five years. Six year term wasn't it, the LegislativeCouncil? Yes. And it was elected in two separate ... oh no I don't think it was in his day. That happened afterwards. (The Legislative Council in Frank's father's day consisted ofa number ofthree member electorates with one member retiring eve1y two years. Each electorate embraced a number ofLegislative Assembly electorates as they still do except that they are now multi member electorates elected on the same day as the Legislative Assembly with a proportional representation system. In Frank's father's day the system, which remained substantially unchanged until after Frank had commenced his term in Parliament, was that the Legislative Council was elected by voluntmy enrolment and voting on a franchise restricted to property owners and rent paying tenants. By Frank's time the amount involved was fairly nominal. The greatest taskfaced by political parties was getting their supporters to enrol and then to vote. Organising elections was quite different fi·om the Legislative Assembly andfimn present practice. The Legislative Council underwent major refonn in 1965 and there have been further changes in recent years. The changes in 1965 resulted in Frank serving an extended second term of eight years. This was because in order to bring Legislative Council elections into line so that future elections would be held conjointly with the Legislative Assembly it was necessary to give halfthe members eight year tenns and the others four. This was determined by examination of the percentage ofthe vote each member had achieved at their last election with those with the highest receiving the extended terms. Because Frank had been the only member unopposed at the 1960 election he was deemed to have achieved 100% ofthe vote and was the first to join the A team!-DW)

Did he enjoy the life of a politican?

Yes, yes he certainly did. He'd come home at the weekend and we'd hear all the stories about the fights there'd been. That's what attracted my brother and I when we went to Hale, to go and hear some of these fights going on.

And you were lucky enough to be there when there were some pretty vitriolic things said were you?

Yes sometimes it would just be like parliament always is. Not much happening and all of a sudden it would flare up. You never knew when the flare-up would happen.

What about looking after his electorate, was he involved very much in visiting at weekends and other times like that?

Not sufficiently. That's why he lost the seat. He very quickly got into the cabinet you see and that took up all the spare time there was pretty well, and that cost him his seat, I'm sure of that.

What position did he hold in cabinet?

First he was Minister for Agriculture, and ... now who was it, anyway it will come to me, but that wasn't for very long then he became Minister for Lands and he was Minister for Lands for the rest of time he was there. (Frank's father was technically a Minister without Porifolio. I think this was because the constitution only allowed a very limited number ofministers and the portfolios were actually held by the Premier who 'sublet' them. I am not sure how the payment ofsuch ministers was arranged-D W)

He would have presided over some very interesting periods of development, group settlement for example?

And destruction. He was the man who was dubbed DSO; Destroyer of State Orchards. He was the man who grubbed the (State) orchard at Brunswick up.

Tell me about that.

Well it was quite unsuitable. They have orchards in that same area but that's after the drainage system went through. Before that I remember him telling me, or telling all of us, that they reckoned they couldn't pull them and he reckoned he got about a yard of a stout timber, cut a notch in it to put a chain through, hook the horse on to the chain and it pulled them straight up. Just pop, there's no trouble about pulling them. If you pull them sideways they jam, you don't get the roots clear but this way he got them up. The whole orchard was gone before they even knew it was going. {The piece oftimber would have been set up vertically so the chain pulled upwards.-DW)

And this was government policy was it; to redevelop the land for something else?

It was in the wind then, the drainage and all that country was waterlogged in the early days. Beautiful farms now, or were, I don't know how they are doing these days but when I first remember it was just water logged country.

That would be from Harvey southwards to the outskirts ofBunbury would it?

Yes, not as far south as Bridgetown. The first place affected would have been Donnybrook. From there north as I remember it.

So that country that's all now part of the Harvey Irrigation system

Yes. The irrigation system redeveloped all that area.

So in your father's time then was the time that they developed group settlement blocks.

No that came a bit later. I remember the group settlement; they got into some awful troubles over that, until they straightened that out. Eventually it got straightened out but I think that was pigheadedness of the Premier of the day who was in many ways a strong Premier but he was too strong, headstrong and what he said went. {Group settlement in the southwest led to huge destruction ofprime forest and extreme hardship on the part ofmany settlers. Frank's father was always opposed to it and clashed vigourously with the Premier, Sir James Mitchell. It may have contributed to the loss ofhis seat.-DW}

Had to work because he said it would?

That's right, that's right.

He didn't lose out in the long run over that did he, being nominated Governor eventually?

Yes. As a matter of fact I think what really happened they made him Governor to keep him out of politics. That was really why it was done.

Kicked upstairs? Yes, he wasn't what I would call a successful Premier but they booted him upstairs and he was, I think, a very good Governor.

I remember him granting us half day holidays when I was a kid at school!

Yes that was quite a thing in those days

He was popular for that. So your father as Minister for Lands would have been overseeing some of the development in the wheatbelt too would he at the time?

Yes, he took a great interest in the wheatbelt..

Do you remember any of the particular schemes of the day?

No I'm afraid I don't. I was too far from it, too busy milking the cow and all that sort of thing. As I say, it put... because my younger brother, he was very delicate, anything going he'd get it. Rheumatic fever, measles, he got every damn thing there was and I never got any ofit. Until after I was married and kids growing up, then I got the lot.

Really?

Yes, spent half my blooming time in bed. (Frank almost died ofmeasles in 1946 when the whole family was stricken .. I ended up in hospital and Frank, having seemingly recovered, suffered a relapse and nearly died. He always said he owed his life to his cousin, Madge, a trained nurse who came.fi·om Busselton to nurse him. He also got scarlet fever as well as several severe attacks of tonsilitis until he had them taken out.-DW)

So while you were away at Hale, what was happening on the farm?

Nothing very much. I think the main thing-they didn't do that too well-was looking after the orchard. I know I used to go every holidays in the spraying season. The holidays just happened to be at the time when we were spraying and I spent my holidays spraying the orchard.

Would that be August?

Yes.

When you were away at school then was your mother still on the property?

No, not all the time. My sister had left school by then and they used to spend ... my sister before she was married and my mother used to spend the summer at Bridgetown during the apple season and the winter they lived in Claremont. We had a house in Claremont. (That house, known as "Karoonda ", which is still standing although much altered, had an extraordinmy connection to the family. After Frank's father left Parliament the house was sold to Mrs Archie McGregor from "Carlindie" station (between Port Hedland and Marble Bar) who recently had been widowed. She was the sister ofmyfather'sfature mother-in law and when he and my mother were married in 1934 my mother was married.fi-om the house and I think the small reception may have been held there (it was the depth ofthe depression). In time Frank's mother-in-law sold her home in Swanbourne and, as she too was a widow, moved in with her sister so both my grandmothers lived there at different times. The house continued with several generations ofthe McGregor family and during that time I met and married my wife who came .fiwn Fiji but was related to both my family and the McGregors. Indeed her grandmother, who was a third sister, had lived therefor a while. When we mmried in 1960 my wife, too, dressed atKaroonda and we were married at Christchurch as Frank and my mother had been. The house remained in the McGregor family for many more years after that.-DW)

And your Dad was still in Parliament at that stage? Yes.

So the family life was disrupted in a way by the parliamentary experience?

Oh yes it was. I think it continued disruption after he lost his seat in Parliament. He'd spend half his time in Perth, or more than half his time. He lived at the WA Club and he spent a lot of time there that he might easily have spent better overseeing ...He needn't have done any work but my brother, after he came back from England, he was a very difficult fellow to live with, very difficult fellow. He'd been brought up with his grandmother and aunt and he was used to getting his own way, I think. They spoilt him thoroughly and he never got over it, never got over it, not for the rest of his life. Very great pity. It taught me one thing. I always declared none ofmy kids would ever be brought up separately from their family. It ruined his life, absolutely ruined it. He'd go in to all sorts of schemes. Buy tractors, all on terms. You know. Then he'd go to work and make good money but he spent the money as fast as he made it. Not on something that'd do him any good but just spent it on any damn thing. He was a holy terror.

So how long altogether had he been away?

Nine years. They took him there for three years and they intended to go back in three years and take me over and leave me at school. I don't know why they thought English schools were better than Australian.

EndofSideA

Tape5 SideB

Frank you were saying they intended to take you over to England after?

Yes, so that he'd have had three years there and I'd have had three years. And I figure it would have been the ruin of two ofus instead of one. That's my humble opinion about it. It taught me that it's very much a mistake for a boy to be brought up away from his own family and his own district and his own people. He grew up without another brother and myself and a sister for that matter. We were brought up in the environment we were going to live in. But in England it's a different story altogether. Even three years would have been too long, I think. One thing it would have done if it had been for three years, it would have broken off an English education and brought him back to Australia and I think that would be very disruptive in your education. I'm sure it would.

Did your brother resent having to come back? Would he have liked to stay on in England do you think?

Oh no. He couldn't get out of England fast enough. He came out when he was sixteen. I think I've said to you his brother was older and he said to my father "What about coming with me?" and he jumped at the chance.

No I'm talking about your brother, your older brother. Would he have rather stayed on in England?

No. He couldn't get back here fast enough. He was training as an engineer in Faraday House which was one of the greatest training places for engineers in the world of those days but he got the offer to come out. They said go out and have a look at it and we'll take you back if you come back. Spend twelve months there and see what you think. He never wanted to go back. No, he never returned to England.

So you went to school at Hale instead of going to England. Why did they choose Hale particularly?

Because it was the oldest school in Western Australia. My mother and her sister had gone to Bishop Hale's School and three of their brothers went to the school; the older brothers. The others were taught by my father's brother. He was a bit... well he had a different temperament to my father. He was much better tempered and much more suitable I would say as a teacher. From the minute he came out here, my grandfather collared him to teach the kids.

This is your grandfather Brockman?

Yes. He recognised him for what he was.

So he led the life of a tutor or a teacher to a private family?

No that would have been but for the fact his sea experience enabled him to obtain the post of lighthouse keeper at the Leeuwin when first it was opened. He was the first lighthouse keeper there. We had a photograph. One of the family's got it now I suppose. Have you ever been to the Leeuwin?

Only to the outside of it.

Well you can see how tall it is. And this photo is of my uncle standing outside on the dome. There he is ... he had his wife down below to take his photo. She was messing about and he said, "take the picture or I'll jump!"

So how long was he a lighthouse keeper then?

For ...I wouldn't know how long but a considerable period it must have been.

Did you visit the lighthouse as a kid?

No, I was in my early 20's the first time I ever was down there. It was a very crook road; just a sand track and there wasn't much moving from the lighthouse into ... Pemberton or Manjimup in those days would have been the closest.

Perhaps at this stage, we have left your father out of Parliament. Can you just in a few minutes sketch the last few years of his life and then we'll come to talk about your Mum.

Well I didn't see a great deal of them but I did go and stay on a couple of occasions and he suffered a great deal worse than my father from gout... he was practically crippled.

That's your uncle, your father's brother?

Yes. Gout affects the heart as you probably know, in bad cases and he had a bad case. He died ... I think he was 5 0, at a dance. He'd just had a dance, sat down, dead, quick as that Just sat down and died. (That occurred in his home atBasildene, which was noted for its dances and social occasions in early Margaret River. His widow lived to nearly 105 years ofage. The next ofthe family to achieve a centwy was Frankhimseifin 2004.-DW)

And that was down in Augusta somewhere was it?

No, Margaret River. He died there.

That would have been a shock to everybody else.

Oh yes. No suspicion of it. You know, he had a bad heart but he didn't worry about it. It was just as sudden as that.

Would that have been your first experience of death in the family? Yes I think it would have been. No ... there would have been one before that and he was a very old man. Great uncle ofmine ... Cookworthy. (Joseph Cookw011hy of "Sandi/ands", Busse/ton. MLAfor Sussex 1890-97.-DW)

How did you handle the idea of people dying as a young fellow?

Oh I just took it as part of life. That's the end ofit. No, it didn't affect me very much I don't think. I was a bit realistic.

Coming to your father now, what about your father? After his parliamentary time and he was living in Claremont most of the time you said, did you?

When my mother and sister were there he lived there, but he didn't live there .. .I think he mainly stayed at his club because when we were at Hale, my brother and I would go down and the key to the front door would be under the mat. Sometimes he was there, sometimes he wasn't.

So you could almost have been a day student at Hale?

For the summer I could have been, yes. But there was nobody to live with.

So let's tum now our attention to your mother for the last little bit of today's discussion. Tell me a little bit about her young life. Where did they live when she was child?

She was born and lived at "The Warren", on the Warren River, about five miles on the road to Northcliffe from Pemberton .. Five miles out there's a very high bridge there over the Warren river, that's where the house was. Quite a substantial house, brick. I don't know where the devil they got the bricks from. Burnt them on the property I suppose it would be. But I don't know what it's like now because it's been neglected pretty much now. (The home is still there although like many ofthe old homes some ofthe out buildings and the old kitchen have been demolished. It is still owned by theBrockmanfamily.-DW)

And what size of family was she in? What brothers and sisters did she have?

She had four sisters, six brothers. Ten.

Where was she in that lineup?

Number two. Her older sister and she were the frrst two and then the oldest son.

What did she do with her life before she was married? Did she have some sort of profession?

No. My grandfather had a property in Busselton then and he put one of his sons to run it. But he nearly ran it in to the ground. So my mother, I think, was moved there to oversee him I suppose. (The property was "West/awn" which, paradoxically, lay a couple ofmiles north ofBusselton .. -DW)

How old would she have been then?

In her twenties. Yes that would be right because I think she was about thirty when she married. I'm not sure about that, probably a bit less than that I think.

You said some time ago that she was a born farmer. Explain that.

Well it was just natural to her. My father was not a born farmer. In fact he didn't take very much interest. First he was a Forest Ranger and he was interested in that job. Then he was in Parliament and he didn't really take a great deal of interest in the farm. My mother practically ran it until, well, I suppose until I left school. And where had she learned that?

At "The Warren" and in Busselton.

Was she best with animals or with growing things?

Oh I think she was good at the lot. I said a born farmer and I meant just that.

So she didn't mind working outside the house?

No, she didn't do field work. She always was in charge of the packing sheds. Packing apples. She never worked on the farm except to teach other people to milk cows and that. Because I remember I got left when I was only eight. I think I was eight. And I couldn't get on with the cow at all. My mother always declared she couldn't milk a cow and I woke up to it afterwards. She knew damn well if she said she could milk a cow, she'd be left to do it. I'm sure of that. So she came down and she said "Oh it's quite easy Frank, you just do that". And I didn't wake up to it immediately. After I thought, "you cunning old thing. I don't blame you one bit but you knew darned well if you said you could milk a cow you'd be milking it." She knew how to milk them alright. Nobody could just walk up to a cow and milk it. You've got to learn how to milk it.

Did she keep the books for the farm?

No.

So that was your Dad's role was it?

Yes, he looked after all that.

When you 're talking about your Mum's personality, what sort of person, how would you describe her?

Fairly intense I would say. Fully occupied for the time being with what she was doing. That's what I mean when I said a born farmer. She was born to it in my opinion.

Did she like the time that she spent away at school, at Bishop Hale's school in Perth.

I think so, yes. She and her sister and the older brothers. Yes I think they all enjoyed the school. And it must have been a pretty good school. It must have been with Bishop Hale himself in control of it because they were well educated, very well spoken. No incorrect English, not in my family. If you used ...pick it up at school like you do, father'd jump on you straight away. "You learn to speak English." If you said a teacher said that he'd say, "I don't give a damn what the teacher said, you tell her from me she'd better re-educate herself'. Some of the State School teachers were pretty poorly educated in the matter of grammar. They used quite incorrect grammar.

Was she at Hale for very many years? How long was she at Hale, your mother?

At Bishop Hale's School? Now I don't know, I'm blessed ifl do. It must have been several years I would think because that's the only education that I know of that she got, other than perhaps her mother teaching her a bit before she went there.

So would she have sat for any public examination do you think?

No. No, I'm sure not. There wasn't much in the way of that sort of thing going in those days.

So talking about her in the home then, what sort of a home did she run? A very good one. A very good one, particularly for meals. Yes she managed her home right from get up time in the morning to whatever time you knocked off at night. She was a real worker. It came naturally to her to work I think. (I have always understood that she was one ofthose people who needed ve,y little sleep notwithstanding the physical effort involved in running a home in those days. She would rise before five in the morning and after all the family had gone to bed would read until midnight or so. She followed this routine into old age when I remember her. I have heard men who worked on the farm say that it didn't matter where they were on the Jann at morning and afternoon tea times she would appear with some scones and a billy oftea.-D W)

So she was good at meals but was she also into sewing and things like that?

Yes she made a lot of our clothes when we were kids. Very good.

When your father first married her was that from where she was on the farm in Busselton or had she been somewhere else?

No I think he either married her from her home at "The Warren" or from Busselton, I would say probably Busselton. (They were married in St Mary's church in Busse/ton in 1896, with the bride, in all likelihood, comingfrom "Cattle Chosen".-DW)

Thinking of the home, what are some of things you can remember that she did around the home that were special for you? For example, were there things like birthday parties?

Yes. A double birthday party for my birthday because mine was on the 23rd January, my younger th brother was on the 24 • Two years and one day exactly younger than I was. So in my memory of 1 before my brother was old enough, or me to remember, I always had my birthday on the 24 \ a th rd double birthday and it always was on the 24 • I never had a 23 birthday as far as I ... up to two, two and a half, possibly three, but I can't remember. I probably held it on my birthday. Once my th brother grew to any time he could remember it was always the 24 •

And how did you celebrate your birthdays, do you remember anything special about them?

Only always birthday presents and one thing I do remember, it was always a bought cake. A special treat; birthday cake. A Canterbury cake.

Where did they come from?

Perth. Just who made them I don't know. I was not interested in who made them. Where they finished up interested me.

So that would be a fruit cake would it.

Yes.

What sort of decoration was there on it? Was it special for decorations as well?

No. It wasn't a dark fruit cake, it was a light fruit cake, luckily for me because I never have liked heavy cake. Plum pudding... my brothers, my father and my mother loved plum pudding, I hated it! They used to put some money in it and I never got any money, for a while. I always sounded disappointed because I never got any money and my father used to slip a sixpence on to my plate.

So that was at Christmas time.

Yes.

Did you have other people around to celebrate the birthdays with you? No, not that I can remember unless somebody happened to be staying there. We had a lot of relations ... [you] used to stay with your relations in those days more than [nowadays]. For instance, we always went to Busselton for the summer holidays. Always stayed with relations. Never thought of staying with anybody else.

Was there one birthday present that you remember that was really special for you as a child ?

Yes. A toy wagon. I can remember a Mr Dun eave gave it to me. He was my godfather and I used to pull it around all over the place. And I can remember the end of it. My brother was sitting in it making me pull him around and it collapsed. Oh I put on a show over that!

Had he made it for you do you think or had he bought it for you?

No it was bought.

And what was it made of?

Metal, all metal.

How did you use it normally apart from pulling your brother around?

Oh, pulled it around a bit but it was very hilly, the part of Bridgetown where we lived, so you were a bit limited to where you pulled it. I pulled it around the house.

So it wasn't big enough to be useful for bringing in the wood or something like that?

No, you'd carry more in your arms. Done plenty of that too.

Well still thinking about your Mum, what can you remember of some ofher sayings and beliefs. Things that she would have passed on to you as good advice?

I don't know that I can remember anything. All sorts of things to do with the farm and that sort of thing. There's one thing she didn't force on us. She wasn't great on religion.

Unlike her mother?

Just exactly the opposite. She was a non-believer of most of the things that other people believed in. "I just don't believe it" she'd say, "it's all fairytales". That's how she looked at it. (I am swprised that Frank says his mother was not at all religious as I remember her reading Bible stories to me and my brother as children. The same "Peep ofDay" and "Line Upon Line" that Frank's grandmother had used. I certainly do not remember her maldng a big thing ofit but I remember to this day one lecture she gave me. I would have been about seven or eight at the time and I made some disparaging remark about Catholics, no doubt echoing something I had heard. She rounded on me. She said. "You must not say things like that, it is wrong and in any case did you realize that I am Catholic?" I was puzzled and had no answer to that, but when I got home! asked my parents if Grannie was really a Catholic. "Of course not. What makes you think that", was the somewhat terse response. I decided the whole subject was too complicated for me and resolved not to engage in these sorts ofdiscussions which appeared to be a minefield. It was years later, long after her death, when at boarding school and attending compuls01y church eve1y week that I happened actually to think about what I was saying when I saw in the creed as used in the Church ofEngland the words, "one holy catholic and apostolic church." I realised then what my grandmother had actually said. She, deliberately, did not enlighten me. It was a lecture that I never forgot and am just thankful that the religious divisions in society that I grew up with have now almost completely gone. Of course, there are new ones and I hope there are people like my grandmother who make young people think before they pan-of learnt pngudices. I wish I could say that I lost my prejudices completely after my grandmother's lecture but she began the process.-DW) So she was good match fur your father in that?

Oh, yes. There was never any argument about that.

What about politics. Was she sympathetic to his interest in politics?

Yes she was. If he was interested in it, she was interested in it. I think she just took things in her stride. If he wanted to go in to politics, that's all right, she'd back him.

Did she ever do anything in the way of campaigning?

Very little. She didn't enjoy that side ofit. Some wives bog in and campaign like blazes but she didn't. She'd stop and look after the farm.

Well that was a very useful sort of support to give him anyway.

Yes it freed him from all the worry of the farm.

So how did she enjoy her time in Perth when she was here? Being a farm person, was she still at home in Perth?

Yes. She mostly stayed at home. My older sister ... ! taught her to drive the car. It's funny. I learnt to drive and taught her to my own undoing because she commandeered the car and I practically wasn't allowed to touch it, so I :finished up buying a motorbike. I bought a second hand motor bike to get round on. She was quite peculiar about it once she learned to drive it. If I took the car to go to town and buy some nails or for something, I'd cop it. "How did you know.. .I might have wanted it" I said. "Right, how long does it take to get to town and back. Ten minutes." "Oh that's not the point, that's not the point".

She'd pull rank on you.

Oh yes. Very much so. Very much so. I never was allowed to touch the car after that.

So with the car, she would drive your mother to Perth and that sort of thing.

Yes.

End of Tape 5 Side B Tape6 SideA Tuesday 17th April, 2001.

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number six in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing th Home, Mount Lawley. Tape Six is being recorded at Sandstrom on, March 20 , 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott's grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by Jolm Ferrell of 34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

GREAT WAR AND BOARDING SCHOOL

Let's think about the Great War. Can you remember when you became aware that there was a war? How did you find out about it and so on?

Well, we had fellows working on the place who left and went to the war. They used to write to us and that's how I became aware that these fellows were "nicking off' to the war.

And how many of these people were there from your property that went off?

Three I think, from memory.

And were they recruited in Bridgetown or did they have to go somewhere else for recruitment.

They were recruited from Bridgetown.

So was there some sort of special Army depot there or were there people touring around to take enrolments. How was it done, do you know? How was the enlistment actually done in Bridgetown, do you know? Did they have an Army officer stationed nearby there who came around for it? How was it done ... through the local police or something?

I just don't remember. They went from Bridgetown but how they were recruited I don't remember. There must have been somebody representing the army in Bridgetown. I don't remember just who it was though.

Do you remember these people having some sort of a send off.

No, all I can remember is seeing them off at the railway station. They had a lot of detonators on the line as the train hauled out you know. Cheering and all the rest of it as they went off.

And those detonators gave them quite a sort ofa sendoffthen with the noise.

Yes, every train that left with recruits on they put these detonators under the train.

And who were the men you are thinking of? What were their names? The ones that went from your property.

Joe Eccelstone was one that went. He was only a young fellow, he was a good worker on the place and another fellow was Len Naylor. Len Naylor and JoeEcclestone those two went from the place. (Joe Ecclestone wrote postcards regularly to Frank's parents from both England, where he wentfor training and later from France. He retumed safely from the war but not to ''Applewood". Many years later I was able to return the collection ofpostcards to his family who were overjoyed to get them as they had no other such relics ofhis war service. I retained transcriptions ofthe postcards.-D'W)

And so was there anybody able to fill in where they'd left off or did everybody else have to absorb more work because they had gone?

Yes, older people did the work I think. There was one fellow, I just can't remember his name, an older man, an Englishman. Bob Roberts, that's who he was.

And he was too old to enlist for the war was he?

Oh yes.

So did you come in for extra work yourself because these fellows had gone?

Yes as a kid I had more loaded on to me because these fellows had gone.

How old would you have been? About? Then?

I suppose around about ten. What year did the war start?

It started in 1914.

Yes that would be right. I would be ten I suppose.

So you were big enough to do quite a good share of work.

Oh yes. Same old thing, milk the cows, look after the horses, feeding the horses and that sort of thing.

Do you remember there being any shortages of things or any other effects like that on life during that Great War?

Oh yes there were shortages of various things.

Do you remember where any of those fellows who left your property went to serve? Did any of those, for example, go to Gallipoli?

Yes. There was one fellow. I think he'd been in the Forestry Dept under my father. Doust. One of the Dousts. He was at Gallipoli and he got wounded there and he died on the way to England, on a hospital ship taking them to England.

That news ofhis death, did that come back to Bridgetown almost immediately?

Yes. Oh yes.

That would be one of the first deaths of the war I suppose that they knew about?

Yes he would have been one of the early ones.

You mentioned the fellows from your property wrote you letters. Did they write letters from a war zone?

Yes

Do you remember any thing about their letters? Do you remember any of the things they said about their experiences? No, not very much. I'm just trying to remember. It's all a long time ago.

So were any of those two who went from your place, Len Naylor was one I think you said. Did he go to Gallipolli by any chance.

No. I don't think he went to Gallipoli, he was later.

Where did he serve ?

I'm blessed if I can remember. I suppose it would have been in France, Yes it would have been in France I think.

And did those fellows who went from your place get back alright or were they wounded or killed in the war.

No. I think they all came back. Yes I'm sure they did.

Did any of them work for your father after that or not?

No, I don't think they did. No, I don't have any recollection of them working after the war.

Who were some of the other people that you know in Bridgetown who also went off to the War? You mentioned Doust, you mentioned Naylor and you mentioned the first one.

I remember a lot of them. Another was a fellow by the name of Ozanne, Eric Ozanne he worked on our place.and he went but he got emptied out. He used to be too fond of the grog. I think what happened was ... he was a reckless sort of a fellow. They were all in a pub in Perth somewhere and somebody bet this fellow Ozanne that he wouldn't floor (knock down) the first person that walked past the entrance to the pub ... that he wouldn't step out and knock him out. And he did just exactly that!! And they emptied him out of the Army for that. But he did get back in later in the War.

One of the big things during the war was the question of conscription. Do you remember anything about the conscription referendums?

Yes. I remember it being held but most people were opposed to conscription, I just don't know why but they didn't like the idea of conscription.

Your Dad was amongst them was he? What was his attitude ?

I think he was against conscription. They preferred volunteers.

Did you have any people you thought of as wartime heroes that you were fond of or know about?

Oh yes, I remember a few of them. They were mostly Lighthorsemen. They served in France. They lost their horse of course. They weren't mounted. A lot of them weren't mounted.

Some of them I think were able to serve in Syria as horsemen weren't they?

Yes, they were. One of the Dousts. (There were several Bridgetown identities who served with the famous 10th Light Horse in Syria and Palestine including Peter Egerton-Warburton, Hamid Annstrong and several others. Another Bridgetown identity, Jack Eastcott was member of the first landing party at Gallipoli in 1915. He survived and lived to an old age and was often asked to speak to children at the local school on Anzac Day.-D W)

Can you remember the school making much of it when the war was on. Yes, they had us picking out various metal, brass particularly. We used to get out on the rifle range and pick up the spent shells off the rifle range.

And this was all collected to sell for the war effort ?

Yes.

What about any other things of that sort? That was collecting shells, was there anything else? Did the women do anything in particular for that?

I don't remember. My memory is not too good of that.

You went to Hale during the war didn't you? Part way during the war.

Let me see now. Yes I must have been at Hale during some of the war.

I wondered if Hale made any thing of it, if they did anything in particular towards the war effort that you can remember?

I can't remember enough to know. (Frank told me that while at Hale he was sent down to Cumpston 's, the engravers, to pick up and bring back to school the two bronze plaques that were mounted on either side ofthe ji-ont door to the school. They were engraved with the names ofthose old boys who had lost their lives in the Great War. Whether he did this alone or with another boy is not known but the latter seems more likely. When the school relocated to Wembley Downs the plaques were also moved. However in more recent years replica plaques have been returned to the old mountings at the old Havelock Street buildings.-D Ff')

Were there any members of your close family that were involved in the War?

Oh yes. Willmotts. Cousins of mine. The eldest son Henry. He served in France and he left his leg there.

Was he one of your English cousins or was he the son of my father's brother here?

He was the son of my father's brother here. Yes he lost his leg in France, in the trenches. (Hemy was later MLAfor Sussex, 1938-47. He lost his leg at Zonnbeke on the Somme. He was the only Willmott to serve in either war. All the others were either too young or too old and as he says elsewhere Frank was "manpowered" during WWII In any case he was 35 when the war started so was really too old anyway. Howeve1~ a number ofhis Bussell and Broclanan cousins served with several ofthem losing their lives.-DFf'j

And did he come back to W estem Australia to live after the war?

Yes, yes his home was in Busselton. He married a girl that we kids knew very well in Busselton. We knew quite a lot of the Busselton people who were very much mixed up in things to do with the war. They were a very patriotic lot.

Any Brockmans involved ?

Oh yes. Yes there were Brockmans and Willmotts mixed up in it.

People apparently were very ready to take part in that war and to volunteer and some people even exaggerated their ages to get in. Oh yes, I knew plenty of fellows that did that. Young fellows of about 18 were volunteering and getting away by putting their ages up. Quite a common thing that was.

Do you think if you had been a little bit older you might have done the same thing?

Yes. Certainly I would have but I was too young.

Did you know anything much about what was really happening in the war or not.

Yes we did by fellows writing to my parents particularly to my mother, she knew everybody around the place you know. They used to write to her and tell her all sorts of things.

Did she keep any of those letters?

Yes she did. I don't know what became of them in the long run though. (A number ofthese letters and postcards are in the possession ofDel Willmott. They were passed on to me by the children ofFrank's sister, Kitty Heste,~ after her death. They are more concerned with the personal activities ofthe soldiers rather than the war itselfwith the bulk ofthem being written fi'om England during training prior to going to France. Some are identified only by Anny number due, no doubt, to censorship­ DW)

Ifwe go towards the end of the war now do you remember anything in the way of celebrations when the war was over?

Oh yes. I was at Hale then and I remember the school emptied on the declaration of the Armistice. Kids all disappeared down into town and the old headmaster, Matthew Wilson, joined in the fun himself. He just told us, "have your bit of fun but be home, back at school, by twelve o'clock. Don't stay after twelve o'clock." So, that's what we did?

How did you celebrate?

The whole country was celebrating, marching crocodiles, that sort of thing. The whole of the city was swarming with people.

Did you see anything going on that you can remember in detail about that?

Yes. The whole of the people of Perth went mad, cheering and all this sort of thing.

I suppose the pubs were doing a good business?

Yes, I think they did a fairly good business. There was a bit of madness in it.

Would that have been on the day of the Armistice or some days later?

No they had it on the day as I remember. The news came through ... yes I remember I went to a picture show with another fellow from the school and the news was flashed on the screen that the Armistice was about to be signed and the place emptied out. There wasn't a soul left in the picture theatre. They were all outside.

What sort of pictures did they have in those days?

The favourite was Charlie Chaplin. We never missed a Charlie Chaplin picture,

They were all silent movies were they?

Yes, yes, No talkies in those days. And what were the picture theatres that you remember in those days in Perth?

The Pavilion and ... what was the one where they used to show Pearl White every Saturday. I remember going to pictures but I don't remember much of what we saw.

Do you know what you paid to get in?

I think it was sixpence. Yes I'm sure it was sixpence.

And you had some sort of allowance did you, pocket money as a boy and that sort of thing.

Yes I had pocket money and that was one shilling a week.

You could see two picture shows for that!

Every Saturday we'd go and see our father who was in the Government then. He was Minister for Lands at the time and we used to call in at the Minister for Lands office for a handout. We'd get it. He'd hand out a couple of bob.

He was pretty generous then?

Oh yes. Yes he was.

So when you went to see him who was with you.

Occasionally, one of the other boys from school but my younger brother was always with me.

He was at Hale too was he?

Yes.

So as he was younger was he in a lower grade than you at the school was he?.

Yes. He wasn't much of a scholar. I don't remember why but he never took any interest in it. I on the other hand became involved with a particular teacher. He was the best school teacher I have ever known because I and two other boys, one was a Burt who came from Albany and the other fellow was ... Oh he came from up north somewhere up Geraldton way and we used to go to see this particular teacher because they, like me, got on with him very well and we used to go to his home every Friday evening. The reason for that was because you had your prep to do and we knew that by going on Friday we had the weekend to do it. So we would go every Friday night and see this particular teacher. He was the best teacher I ever knew.

What was his name?

Poland. Gerry Poland.

What was his subject?

He taught ... bookkeeping was his main thing and maths. He taught me all I ever knew about maths, he just simply had the gift. I can hear his voice now, he had a very peculiar voice. He sort of ground the thing into you with this peculiar voice. You'd never forget anything he taught you, he'd grind it into you.

Not with a stick? No. Unlike one of the other masters. The head master went east on a visit during the holiday at Christmas and they had some sort of (disease) outbreak and he was quarantined there and this fellow that took on as his deputy caned me every day for weeks and weeks because I would not take French. I said, "I don't want to take French."

End of Side A

Tape 6 SideB

So you were saying you had an argument with this teacher. He wanted you to do French and you didn't.

Yes. I just simply refused to do it so he took it out on me with the cane until the Headmaster, Matthew Wilson, came back and he very soon put an end to that. I just explained to him that I was doing extra maths with this other teacher and I knew he had a lot of time for this teacher. He was a good teacher and I don't think he had much (time) for the other one, Rankin, who was the fellow I couldn't hit it off with.

And he didn't check this out with your father? The deputy?

No. All he was interested in was caning me. He just had a set on me for some reason.

Was there much of that at Hale?

No. He was the only teacher that was like that. There was another fellow I didn't get on with too well but he didn't resort to the caning business.

This fellow, Poland, that you used to visit, whereabouts did you go to his home?

Somewhere in North Perth. He had a home in North Perth. We used to go out to his place ... catch a tram and go out to his· home.

So where did the tram go that was going to North Perth? Which streets did it go down? Was there a tram in Fitzgerald Street for example?

Yes there was a tram in Fitzgerald St. We used to use that quite a bit. Something used to take us out there ... I know, it was something to do with the Army Cadets. It was compulsory training for schoolboys in those days. You all had to do your military training.

Did you enjoy that?

Yes. Most of us did enjoy it.

Did you have opportunities to actually handle firearms?

Yes. We would go down to the rifle range at Swanbourne. We were lucky that a fellow who took us for the training was a Major in the war. Major Roydhouse his name was. He really knew how to handle boys, everybody liked him. Yes, I can see him now; he'd take us through all sorts of courses. You learnt about military affairs from him.

With the guns, what sort of firearms were you able to use as a cadet

.303s. The full size.303 with .303 ammunition?

Yes. They had other rifles which had been used ..310 I think they were, but they all disappeared because the boys pinched them. They were handed out a rifle and half the blokes that were leaving the school ... they were in a special shed and a lot of the boys used to take one when they left. I never got one but I knew plenty of them who did.

It would have been pretty unusual to have the bolt and everything with the gun not separate from it where it was stored. How did they get on with that?

Now I just don't remember ... yes they must have been stored with the rifle and ammunition other wise the kids would not have been able to get at them so easily. Ammunition too.

Even in the fifties when I was at Hale .303 rifles were issued to boys and kept complete with bolt in the boys own lockers in the boarding house or, in the case ofday boys, taken home. As a member and later captain ofthe School Shooting team (rifle shooting remained an Interschool sport for some years after I left school) I usually had several rifles on issue at any one time. The care ofthe fireanns was deemed to be the responsibility ofeach individual. Incidents ofmisuse ofissued firearms were almost non-existent except for the occasional use for kangaroo shooting at home during the holidays. Ammunition was stored ve,y carefully under lock and key and each round had to be accounted for at the rifle range. Howeve,~ occasionally it was possible to get some away for home use but again actual dangerous or criminal misuse was virtually unknown. Also, the issue ofeach rifle was carefully recorded to ensure its return. I don't recall any instances ofrifles going missing. The record keeping was done by a schoolboy cadet quartermaster but I imagine the Army carried out regular audits to ensure all firearms were accountedfor. In addition to .303 's the Cadet Unit also had one rifle that looked like a .303 but had a .22 bmrel known as a Morris tube. We used this frequently for practice in a small enclosed rifle range behind the school in Havelock Street. The .310 cadet rifle refe,red to by Frank was a single shot weapon with a Martini action which meant that it had no bolt. It was loaded by use ofa lever situated behind the trigger guard which lowered the entire breech block enabling a round to be inserted. When the lever was raised the breech was closed and the rifle cocked ready for use. A similar pattern .303 was used by Australian soldiers in the Boer War and Frank himselfused one of these for shooting kangaroos throughout his life. That rifle, which originally had been issued to his father as a member ofa local defence unit, is still in working order and held bya memberofthefamilywith a curio licence. It was originally made by BSA in 1870 asa smooth bore gun and re-barrelled by Enfield to .303 calibre rifle in 1900.-DW

So you were doing target practice mainly at Swanbourne?

Yes.

Were you a good shot?

Yes, I was always a good shot.

Had you used firearms on the farm before you came to Hale?

Yes, I used to shoot the parrots in the orchard with a .410 shotgun and then I graduated from that to a .22.

There were no rabbits in those days were there?

No, rabbits hadn't arrived then.

So you shot parrots and what about other things. Did you shoot kangaroos at all? Not in those younger days but I shot a lot of kangaroos later. We had a property of a thousand acres about twelve miles from the property at Bridgetown and that was infested with kangaroos. We used to shoot them and shoot them and shoot them.

Do you like eating kangaroo?

Yes we used to eat it. I like kangaroo.

Going back to your cadet experience with the cadets at Hale. Did you do other sorts of army field work apart from rifle practice.

Yes. Route marches and that sort of thing.

Did they march you to Swanboume or were you taken there somehow ?

No we must have been taken there, I don't remember going on foot, not to Swanbourne.

What would have been possible in those days? How would you have been able to get to Swanboume in the days we're talking about?

I suppose trams were running in those days.

There was a tram to Subiaco wasn't there. Did that extend any further?

Yes. At one stage right down to Claremont. And they went via Point Walter as I remember it. Trams.were, to my way of thinking, a good means of transport. The comment about Point Walter is puzzling. I think he may have been referring to Point Resolution as the trams did run up Waratah Avenue to Claremont. In my day, we were normally taken to Swanbourne Rifle Range by milita,y transport although I was actually in the Air Training C01ps not the Army Cadets. When we were training for the Interschool Shooting we would use public buses orjust sling our rifles over our shoulders and ride a bike. No-one took any notice ofschoolboys boarding buses with rifles in those days soon after World War IL-DW

I didn't know of them going very close to Swanboume but I suppose you would go to the terminus and walk the rest.

Yes.

Seeing we've got on to the subject of Hale indirectly, we' 11 just take a moment to talk about that. Were you comfortable with the idea ofleaving home to go to school when it was mooted?

Yes, I liked the idea of boarding school rather.

Did you know many other Bridgetown boys who were going to Hale.

One, he was the postmaster's son; good friend of mine too. He finished up getting meningitis and died.

As a boy?

Yes. He was a fellow who enjoyed boarding school too. Some of them hated boarding school but a lot of blokes really loved it. The experience.

And I suppose there would have been people from Busselton that you knew there as well would there.

Yes, I had some cousins, Brockmans who were from B usselton. So it was almost like an extended family?

Yes. It was.

What sort of conditions were you in at the boarding house?

The conditions were a bit rough on the food side. We were pretty poorly fed; because of the war I think. It was still on and things were curtailed on the food side a bit.

What sort of things would you be given to eat?

Porridge in the morning and sometimes you'd be given a bit of steak or bacon and egg. That sort of thing. You were always hungry if you were a boarder. We were always known as the "hungry boarders" because we were always hungry.

What about lunch, did you go back to the boarding house for lunch?

Yes

What sort of things would they feed you for lunch?

Oh, mostly meat.

So it would be a hot meal?

Yes.

What about your evening meal

That was where it was disappointing. It was bread and jam, just smeared on. There would be a big plate put in the middle of the table and you just had bread and jam, nothing else. If you happened to be in funds, after the meal there was a fish and chip shop just down the road from the school. If you had the wherewithal you would go and get some fish and chips.

And what would you pay for fish and chips in those days?

You'd generally buy three pennyworth or six pennyworth worth of chips. And if you were in the funds you would buy a bit offish too. You weren't always in funds but the potato satisfied us if you didn't have the money for the fish.

So you were able to supplement the school meals.

Yes. (There had not been much change when I went to Hale just after WWII when some food rationing was still on. Despite th is I think we were better fed but we were always complaining ofbeing hung1y. I remember on one occasion we were complaziiing ofthe bread always being stale so we set out to eat eve,y bit in the school in the belief that we would then getfi·esh bread. This went on for several days with enonnous amounts being eaten. Finally the housemaster intervened and read the riot act. We never got fresh bread! We also had a fish and chip shop down in Hay Street and even then sixpence was enough to buy a worthwhile amount ofchips. Our pocket money, when I started in 1950, was still one shilling a week although that changed as inflation took hold in the wake ofthe wool boom. I think it was five shillings by the time I left in 1953 and we also had access to some other money deposited by ourparents but money was always in short supply!-DW)

Was attendance at church part of Hale? I did when we first went to boarding but my father didn't have much time for the church. He'd been brought up by his mother ... she was a bit church mad. That was how my father used to describe her so he eventually decided we could go to Claremont to our home there every Sunday so we didn't have to go to church.

So he rescued you? (Frank didn't rescue us!-DW)

He rescued us. He was very fond of going out on the river rowing so we spent pretty well every Sunday out on the river.

Did the school do rowing in those days?

Oh yes.

Were you part of the rowing at school.?

No, I was too light. Very thin ... weighed absolutely nothing because I contracted ... what do they call it... something very infectious.

Not scarlet fever? (I think he may have been referring to infectious hepatitis which I also contracted seriously in my last year ofschool-DW

No I had scarlet fever when I had left school. I got that when I was grown up and it damn near did for me.

It can be quite serious when you're older can't it.

Yes, I got it quite badly. (I remember Frank having scarlet fever when I was about five years old. He was quite sick but nowhere near as sick as he was a few years later with measles. Unlike the measles no one else in the family got scarlet/ever. -D W)

So you weren't involved with the rowing but what other sports were there at Hale that you might have been involved in.

Oh. Running. Athletics.

How did you do at that?

I was good but not quite good enough. I always joined in the running but there was always somebody who was just a bit )Jetter than me.

What distances did you like?

My favourite distance was 300 yards but as I said I was just not good enough.

What about cross country running. Did you do any cross country?

A bit of that but again I was just not good enough. There was always someone just a little bit faster than me. But that did not stop me trying. I'd be in it.

Did they have ball games as well at Hale Yes, I played football.

What place did you play in on the field?

I usually played on the wing. I liked my football. I enjoyed football. After I left school I continued to play football in Bridgetown. (Hale had only changed fi"om soccer to Australian Rules a couple ofyears before Frank went. His brother­ in-law, Evelyn Hester, who had attended the school a few years ahead ofFrank had played soccer.-DW)

Still a wingman?

Yes, mostly.

And what teams were there in Bridgetown? Were there many teams there?

There was a Bridgetown team, a Greenbushes team and a Balingup team. Those three places had a team. I always played for Bridgetown. (I am not sure but I think Bridgetown had two teams, Frank played for the Warriors which was mostly a town team. The Rovers were drawn morefi·om thefanners so I don't know why Frank chose the Warriors. I remember one ofthe big decisions I had to make as a small boy starting at the State School when a much bigger boy asked me in a menacing tone whether I was a Warrior or a Rover. I really didn't know but remembered that Frank had playedfor the Warriors so I nominated them. It must have been the right answer because I didn't get a thumping !-D W)

Did you win any cups or commendations for your playing?

No I don't think so. Nothing to boast about. I enjoyed my football but there again I was just not good enough.

You said you were a good shot with a rifle. Did you win any trophies for shooting?

Yes, I was a reasonably good shot then but I was recognised when I was older as one of the best shots anywhere. I could really lay them down.

You would have had a bit of trouble managing a .3 03 when you were a boy if you were thin and small because they are pretty heavy aren't they?

Not the one I had. It was single shot, an old South African war rifle that my father sort of trained with. A single shot .303 and it was fairly light you see. No magazine.

And coming back for a moment to Claremont, you said you used to spend your Sundays with your family in Claremont-where were they in Claremont?

Victoria Parade if you know where that is.

Right down by the river.

Yes. (The home which is still standing, although substantially altered, was actually at 2 5 Victoria Parade now renamed Freshwater Parade to avoid confasion with Victoria Avenue. The home was later sold to the McGregorfamily and remained in the family until around the 1970s. When Frank married, his wife, Frances Riches, was married ji-om there as was Jennifer Mune who married Frank's eldest son, Del. Both weddings took place at Christchurch. The quite complicatedfamily relationships are set out on the family tree-DW.)

So your boating was quite a favourite pastime? Oh, yes my father always loved it and so did I for that matter

Did you row or did you sail?

We mostly rowed but the fellow, my father became friendly with ... he handled the Ford Motor cars of those days. I'm just trying to think of his name. (I think his name was Grey or Gray but don't remember other details.-DW)

Not Lynas Motors?

No.

Oh Winterbottom's had Fords in the early days didn't they?

No not Winterbottom's. Oh. I used to go out with him, he had a fast motor boat... the "Hermes" that was the name of the boat and she could go. Before they had the skis they used to tow a plate behind it, a little narrow plank. What they called waltzing. You'd swing from side to side and just get on the tip of the wash and you'd swing back and if you just went a little too far it would spill you. Because I remember my mother rousting on my father one day because we'd been down to some Japanese naval ships in Fremantle and we were doing a bit of showing off and they were very interested in this waltz thing and I waltzed myself into a header and she rousted on my father. "With all those boats in that harbour and you skiing and falling off You know there are sharks in that harbour." There were too.

So that was right down in Fremantle was it? fu the mouth of the river?

Yes.

Did you fish from a boat in the river?

Oh, yes. Often. My mother was a great fisherman. My father was not so keen on it but my mother, she could really hook them.

What sort of things would you be able to find in the river?

Cobblers and tailor. We used to go for the tailor.

What about prawning, did you do any prawning down there at the river?

Crabbing more than prawning. We used to go quite a lot after the crabs.

So you had quite a good maritime weekend?

Oh yes,yes.

So you'd have gone down to Claremont by tram or something?

Train.

How often did the trains run in those days?

Oh. Fairly often. I don't remember just what but it might have been every half hour or something like that.

There was nothing by the way ofbuses in those days was there? No.

How far in your schooling did you get at Hale before you had to go back to Bridgetown?

Leaving. (I think Frank actually went to Junior standard-D W)

You sat your leaving exam?

Yes.

Where was that done in those days? Was that done at the school?

Yes. Under supervision from the University.

And how well did you do ?

Oh I was reasonable, particularly in maths. I liked maths, particularly algebra. I was a real dab at algebra. It seems such a commonsense sort of a thing, algebra, it always was to me.

And you were telling me before that as a younger child you were good at the English side of things so you were a bit of an all-rounder were you?

Yes. Yes.

Could you have gone on to University if you'd wanted to from there?

I could have but I didn't want to and my father, for some reason, didn't encourage it. He had a bit of a thing about university, I don't know why.

Was the University ofWestem Australia operating then?

Yes.

They weren't at Crawley were they? Were they in hwin Street?

Yes it was. Irwin Street, I think. (Frank was none too keen on University either. He regarded it as a way ofwasting time rather than getting on with the important things in life such asfmming! His wife's family was much more academic, with his wife's brother, Jack Riches, being one of WA 'sfirst Hackett Scholarship winners. None ofhis children attended university but he was very proud as one by one most ofhis grandchildren completed degrees.­ DW)

Finish ofSideB Tape7 SideA Tuesday 23rd April, 2001.

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number seven in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing Home, Mount Lawley. Tape Seven is being recorded at Sandstrom on, April 23rd, 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott's grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

MOTOR BIKES, TRACTORS AND FARMING

First of all, let's start with the motorbike. You told me you bought a motorbike when your sister didn't want you to drive the car but do you remember the first motorbike you ever saw?

Yes I remember it well. It was sent down by the Department for Lands because my father in those days was a ...

He was Minister for Lands was he?

No, this was long before he went in to parliament. I just can't remember what title he had now.

Oh, was this when he was a Forest Ranger?

Yes. They sent him down a motorbike. It was the most miserable motorbike I ever saw. He gave it away. Anyway he didn't use it. Instead of that he went away and bought himself a Ford car.

What date, roughly, are we talking about?

You've got me now, that would be about 1908, I would say. About then I think.

Do you remember what brand the motorbike was, what make?

No.

Can you describe what it looked like?

No, you wouldn't try to describe it. Much like any other motorbike to look at but it was unlike a motorbike in action? Because it never got any action much.

So it would have had a little petrol engine of some kind?

Yes.

You don't remember anything about the size of the motor.

No, except it was a single cylinder. No twin cylinders in those days.

Did you ever try to ride it?

Oh no. It was before I was game to ride it. I don't think anybody ever rode it very much. There was a piano tuner fellow by the name ofRippard(?sp); he borrowed it from my father to go to Boyup Brook. Twenty miles. He spent two days trying to get to Boyup Brook and never got there. That's the sort of motorbike it was.

So that was the first one you had anything to do with. But as the years went by can you tell me about motorbikes that you knew about leading up to the one that you bought for yourself

No the only experience I had of...no ... a fellow that worked for us ... he bought a motorbike. And he spent most of his time fiddling with it and not riding it as far as I can remember. They were a pretty tough thing, motorbikes in those days.

Were they chain drive bikes in those days?

No, belt. That was the trouble of course. Every pool of water you hit the belt would slip.

What s01t ofbelt was it? What was it made of?

Metal. But as far as I can remember it had just two gears.

So when it came to getting a motorbike yourself, that was quite a bit later - what motorbike did you choose for yourself?

I bought a second hand motorbike ... it was an English bike the name will come to me in a while. I bought it from a fellow by the name ofHoldsworth and he'd been riding it all over the country. He installed a lot of the ... what would you call it. I can't think what they called them now... anyway, it will come to me probably later on. But it was very high geared; you couldn't get under about thirty miles an hour in top gear. It only had two gears and of course for those roads in those days it was too damned fast. You spent more time on the ground than you did on the bike.

Because it was all dirt roads I suppose?

Yes, sand. A lot of sand patches. The day I bought it I got stuck in a sand patch. The fellow that I bought it from got on and rode it through all right but it was quite a job for him. But I got it down ... I went to turn off to go back to the farm off the main road and I crashed and I had a hell of a job to start it again. Of course the best way to start it was to run along and jump on it going. That's the way we always used to start them. But I hadn't learned to jump on it by then.

Did they not have a kick start?

No, the one I had had a wind start. You put it up on the stand, wound it and started it that way and put it into neutral and hopped on it and away you went. (I think they wound it by spinning the wheel.-DW)

So how big a bike was that, what size of motor.

It was a twin cylinder, I think they called it a Seven Nine. I can't get hold of the name

It was an English bike?

Yes.

How about ifl give you some of the names. There was Sunbeam, BSA, Triumph, Matchless. I don't know all of the bikes but they were a few of the names I knew. I wondered if it was one of them?

It was a BSA.

It was BSA was it? Yes, of course it was a BSA. Here's me looking for the name and you said it!

And did they have a hand operated gear change?

No, they didn't have a hand operated gear change, the BSAs. Unlike the one I had ... what did I call it ... no I can't remember what it was. Anyway, it was a most damnable thing to ride. (Frank seemed a bit confused at this point. I remember him talldng about his first motorbike. I don't think it was a BSA. I am far ji-om certain but the name Rudge comes to mind.-DW)

And what time are we talking about that you bought it. Something in the twenties or earlier than that?

No, it was in the twenties. I would say twenty-two, twenty-three, something like that.

I believe they perfected motorbikes a little bit during the Great War because despatch riders used them. So by the time you got yours there was a twin cylinder motor?

Yes, this was a twin cylinder, V2.

In those days it would all be magneto ignition wouldn't it?

Yes, all magneto.

Did you have electric lights or not.

No. Acetylene gas.

Acetylene lights? That's the sort of thing you put acetylene and water in is it?

That's right, yes.

Can you just remind me how that system worked?

Well you had the carbide and at the top it had a container for water and you just opened the valve and let a drip go into the carbide. That gave you the gas. You just lit it with a match.

Was it a good light?

Very good. One thing that did work on the bike.

And it was OK for work in the bush and so on too, that light?

Yes. Ford cars had the same system. The one my father bought in 1910, I suppose it was, somewhere about there. It had acetylene gas light. But they changed it soon after and put electric light on. I don't remember quite exactly how it worked but when you were going downhill and the motor wasn't working very fast the lights would fade and then you put her in a low gear and they'd brighten up again. Funny system.

So that's the motorbike. Did you go on through life buying more motorbikes or did you only ever have the one?

That cured me. My brother rode motorbikes for years, my older brother. But he started with a BSA and they were fairly simple. This one I had was anything but simple. It had two gears but the gears were all in the pulley. Quite a hefty thing the pulley and to change gears you wound it. So you'd be changing gears winding this damned thing and half the time coming a cropper. (I think it operated by having two vee type pulleys carrying a metal belt made like a fine link chain. To change gears one pulley was opened and the other closed so that the ratio changed while belt tension was retained. That was the theory but obviously it gave trouble-DTY)

So you couldn't make a quick change? So what would be the furthest journey you took on that bike?

I never went more than about 40 miles I suppose. Donnybrook, about somewhere there. But I finally sold it to a shearer. He wanted to get to Perth in a hurry. He saw this bike and said, "what'll you take for the bike?" I said. "I'll take twenty pounds, you can have it for twenty pounds". He said "right ho", He counted me out twenty pounds and away he set to Perth.

Do you know ifhe got there ?

No, I saw it. I was going to Perth with my father only two or three weeks later and we saw it parked in a place in Pinjarra. That's as far as he got!!

Oh well, at least he got that far.

We've talked about motorbikes for a bit, what about the first tractor you ever saw?

The first tractor I ever saw on my father's place, of course, was a little Cletrac. It was only a little fella. It was alright but we didn't have it for very long. My father woke up to the fact that it was not powerful enough so he bought the bigger model and we had infmite trouble with them. I happened to be reading the instruction book for some reason or other and I came across the reason for all our trouble. They'd changed the system, it was a ... bless my soul. Anyway I found the instruction book­ they'd altered the (notches) ...it was held in place by an affair with three small projections which fitted into (the adjuster) , you tightened it up and then relaxed it three notches, and I read this book and I thought this doesn't sound right so I went back and read through it and looked at the pictures and I realised what they'd done. They'd altered it because these three little (notches) used to be inclined to strip so they put much bigger (notches) and instead of putting it back three notches, you should have put it back one. By putting it back three they kept wearing out because they were slack; the bearings; Timken cone bearings. They were always run slack. It was not till my brother had a job enlarging the Bridgetown Showground that we found this out. He was wearing these bearings out like nothing.

Which bearings? Were these wheel bearings?

No. They were what they called the lower track bearings.

On the track?

Yes. They continued to leave that in their instruction book, putting it back three when it should have been one. I found this out. I just happened to be reading this and I thought "this can't be right". Because they altered these things because they used to strip. And we got the people down from Perth. "Oh no", he said, "that's right you put them back three." I said, "you go and learn your own business because you put 'em back one." He argued the point and they still sent out the instruction to work by the book; and the book was wrong. And they wouldn't admit it for a long time. We adjusted it and had no further trouble with it. (Frank is referring to the lower track rollers which supported the tractor along the length ofthe crawler type track. These were run on Timken bearings which had to be kept correctly adjusted. A notched ring was used to lock the adjuster and it would appear that on earlier models the small notches had been found to strip so they had been enlarged. What Frank noticed was a difference in the notch sizes shown in the illustrations compared to the tractor. The correct adjustment of Timken bearings, which are still used today in wheel bearings in cars, is critical. Cletrac were well ahead oftheir time in using them in track rollers as most other manufacturers such as Caterpillar and International continued to use plain bearings for many years after. I am familiar with this story as Frank had related it to me on several occasions. The first tractor owned by the Willmotts was a Cletrac model F and the larger one a model W. There is a very well restored example ofthe latter at the Whiteman Park Tractor Museum.-D W)

So that little tractor, what sort of work could you do with it

Oh general farm work. Most of the work was in the orchard, cultivating the orchard, but putting in crops and that sort of thing. The little bloke ... he was not enough power ... he couldn't even pull a three-furrow plough.

Was that a kerosene motor

Yes, started on petrol and put on to kerosene.

Can you suggest why your Dad chose the one with tracks rather than wheels?

Oh yes. Wheel tractors were no good in Bridgetown country. Not at that stage.

Too steep was it?

Yes. You were always in danger of turning over on yourself. Two or three fellows got killed rearing up backwards. My first experience was at the Royal Show. My father was there looking at these tractors and he said to the fellow demonstrating. "Let this boy drive it." He said, "Oh he wouldn't be able to drive it." And my father said, "You try him and see." I got on and drove it. I'd been driving cars and that sort of thing for years but it wasn't till years later I bought a different tractor, a wheel tractor, a Massey Harris. She was good. I never had trouble with her. They'd altered them. None of this rearing up business. As a matter of fact if she got into trouble she'd sink the front wheels in not the back. They had the gearing fixed. I don't quite understand how it was but when you drove them there was no chance of turning over on yourself. ((Wheel tractors did not really become popular until the introduction ofpneumatic tyres in about the 1940's. The main reason the rearward overturning problem was largely overcome in that type of tractor was the movement of the hitch pointforward under the tractor and the use ofa swinging draw bar. This caused the power ofthe tractor to pull the front wheels down preventing overturning. Early Fordson tractors were particularly notorious for this. Of course early tractors were really just iron horses pulling the same machines as had always been used. Even Frank's Massey-Harris, bought in 1945, was no different, just a bit more powe,jitl. Farm tractors were revolutionised after Harry Ferguson witnessed a fatal accident and decided there had to be a better way. He developed his revolutionary three point linkage, which completely eliminated the overturning problem and by operating it hydraulically turned the tractor into complete farm worker with a multitude ofeasily attached implements. Many ofthe famous grey 'Fergies ', which started to appear in Australia in numbers about 1950, are still worldng sixty years on-DW)

And when you were talking about using ploughs in the orchard, I guess they changed a bit over the years too, did they?

Oh yes. We used horses to plough. We used tandem discs if you know what I mean. Cultivators, that's what we used to do the orchards with after that.

When you had the tractor?

Yes.

So we're talking about still early twenties are we, or later?

No, early twenties.

So disc ploughs were well and truly in by then? Disc cultivators; tandem discs. Yes. There weren't many. In fact my brother did a lot of the orchards around Bridgetown. They'd rather pay him than harness up teams ... all that sort of thing, you know.

And course, with an orchard you don't need anything very wide, do you, because you're going between the rows?

That's right.

So how far apart are your trees in, say, an apple orchard?

Some were nineteen feet and twenty-four feet. All ours were twenty-four.

So you had plenty ofroom for that twin disc cultivator? (These were not twin disc cultivators. They were tandem discs as Frank says. The tandem referred to double rows of discs. There were in fact four "gangs" of discs with each axle carrying about eight discs. Each row comprised two gangs which could rise and fall independently of each other and the other row.-DW)

Yes, but the difficulty was some of the old spreading trees. It was the tractor that stopped you.

The overgrowth, the foliage, stopped you

Yes, particularly some varieties. J onathons were a very spreading tree. Cleos were all upright. They were easy to do but the Jonathons; they were a perfect curse. You couldn't get very close to them

And how often did you have to do the cultivating in an orchard?

Some years more than others. If there was a lot ofwetweather... Whatwas I saying?.

You were talking about how often you had to cultivate.

That would depend on the season, largely. If you got rain it would start the (weed) growth again. You had to clear that up or it would get quite high. (The cultivation and removal ofweeds was to conserve moisture as there was no irrigation in those days.- DW)

And did you use tractors at all for fertilizing; spreading fertiliser in those days?

We didn't. Some did but we did it by truck. We had a spreader which we fitted up to a truck; specially fitted up so that it could spread a fairly good big distance.

And what sort of fertiliser are we talldng about for the orchards?

A certain amount of super, only a little super, but mostly blood and bone. From Wyndham.

From the meatworks at Wyndham?

Oh yes. They used to make a lot when the abattoirs were operating.

And, again, how often would you do that in an orchard?

A couple of times a year. Would you do it in spring?

Yes, the main time was in spring. But sometimes you'd have to do it a bit if you had summer rains. Sometimes we didn't get any summer rains. We liked that.

Talking for a moment about tractors and so on. A lot of your property was bush when your father first took it up and you had quite a lot of clearing to do. What sort of equipment did you use for clearing? It was before bulldozers, wasn't it?

Oh yes, long before. Fire. Fire.

You'd burn the scrub just as it stood, would you?

No. It was all ringbarked. When first he went there some had been done before he took it up and that's what you did; you ringbarked it and used the old fire stick.

And that's a fairly long process. How many seasons would it take to get a clear paddock with that method?

Depends how many men you put on.

It wouldn't be only one season would it? If you are ringbarking it takes a while for the tree to die of£

Oh yes. They'd been ringbarked for some years. In fact, what started the most clearing really was the steam tree pullers. They had steam tree pullers and they'd pull all the dead ringbarked timber down. That was the real start of large scale clearing.

That was on wheels was it, this steam operated puller?

Yes, yes. It was a steam traction engine. But you didn't operate it by it moving along, It had a big flywheel and you'd use the ropes because you could take the load off. When the steam engine slowed down too much she'd lose power so you'd put it on and off and that's the way they pulled it.

Somebody had to shin up the tree to attach the rope did they?

No. They had a fella, I remember him well. He had the job of... can't remember what they called it now, but they threw a weight with a light rope attached over a limb high up. He was a real dab. He'd swing this and let it go and he'd get it every time.

Quite a skill.

Yes he was really expert at it. (Frank talks about the steam tree pullers in more detail in the interview I did with him in 1988-DVV)

EndofSideA

SideB

(the steam tree pullers) were built up in Bridgetown.

Manufactured there?

Yes. Yes.

So what smt of wheels did they have on them? High back wheels with grips on and smaller front wheels.

So it was steel wheeled?

Yes.

And what about fuel for raising steam? What sort of fuel did they use? For the fire?

Timber.

So it was a wood fired boiler?

Yes.

A man would have to have a boiler certificate to run one of those wouldn't he?

I suppose they would. They were used on the farms a bit too. Our next door neighbour had one and did all their cropping with it. Chaff cutting and all that sort of thing.

So, it could be used just like a general tractor?

They could but mostly it was stationary. Driving chaffcutters and all that sort of thing.

It would be a clumsy sort of machine to have to manoeuvre around the paddocks wouldn't it/

Yes and they had to ... ifyou were working in the steep country and it's very steep country in Bridgetown, you wouldn't be game to start of down a hill before you hooked onto a big log. Otherwise she'd run away.

There wasn't much in the way of brakes in something like that.

No, they wouldn't respond to brakes too well.

So the steam was driving a turbine to move it along was it?

Yes. (Frank must have misheard this question because all these old steam traction engines were driven by slow revving piston engines operating in a similar way to locomotives and utilizing a similar valve arrangement to enable them to run in either direction so eliminating the need for reverse gears. I don't think they had gearboxes at all because steam engines, unlike petrol engines, can produce power from a standstill and at ve,y low speeds. They may have had some way ofaltering the drive ratio to allow higher speeds when travelling. They were ve,y heavy, clumsy, machines and I think when they were used to pull ploughs, it was usually done by having separate machines at each end of the paddock and pulling the plough between them with wire ropes. I don't think they were ever ve,y widely used like this in Australia. As far as driving them about was concerned, they would have been very easy to bog and hard to extract as they would need to have an anchor point to which to hitch their wire rope. "McMasters' Traction Engine" from "Sandy's Selection" by Steele Rudd gives a hilarious account ofa steam traction engine working on a farm.-DW)

How long did they last?

Oh, not very long. I think they were mostly over and done with within five years. (They lasted much longer in the wheatbeltwhere they were used for threshing and, especially,for chaffcutting. In addition to providing power to run the chaffoutter, the steam was also utilized to soften the straw and to reduce the dust. We cut chaff in quite a big way for a number ofyears in Bridgetown using Frank's Massey-Harris tractor to drive the chajfcutter. It was an unbelievably dusty, itchy job and we often used to wish we could "steam" the hay.-DW)

And what about the people that were making them in Bridgetown? Who was doing that?

They were Government.

The Government operated them?

Yes.

That was another aspect of Jimmy Mitchell's ideas was it?

It was before Jimmy Mitchell's time.

So, that puts it back before 1920?

Oh, yes. Before 1920.

Before the war, perhaps?

Yes.

So, post war when you still had clearing to what would you have been using later on, say in the twenties?

Oh, various methods. Bullock teams a lot. They were quite good. Horses were not much good. They don't lay the weight in like bullocks, which pull in quite a different way. They really ... you get a team of a dozen bullocks and, by God, it's amazing what they can shift.

What sort of gear would they need to pull trees with them? Because they'd pull the tree down the same way would they; with a bullock team?

Yes, but you had to get the pull low down. What we used to do ... you bitched one end oftbe rope low down on a stump or something and then you'd pull the rope through a pulley and you'd hook on to the other end of the rope and you would hook a rope leading off the pulley... how can I describe ... tbe rope you're pulling is fed through a pulley and another rope goes onto what you are going to pull. It's not a direct pull. You halve the speed that you pull it at and that gives you double power.

Very clever.

Yes, it was.

And that would be very effective but only one tree at a time.

· Yes. We mainly used gelignite for big timber because we lived quite near to town. Only about a mile and a half from the town and I used to feed this gelignite in and load a whole lot. If you load one at a time and blow one at a time it takes you twice as long. If you bore them all and load them all and when it comes about half an hour before lunch you'd light them all. Run around and light them all. And they'd hear this go. "That bloody Frank Willmott is blown his trees again". I'd really shake the town.

So you'd actually bore into the trunk of the tree would you, to place your charge?

Yes. We'd bore in and slope it at an angle so that it gets into the stump, gets into the root. When that's ready half of what you blow would fall qown when you blow them. And what did you do your boring with?

An auger.

A hand operated auger?

Yes. For lighter ones we ... have you ever seen them boring railway sleepers laying a line?

No, I haven't.

They are two handed ...

Oh, I've seen a two handed auger, a brace. (I think the type ofauger Frank is referring to was used by two men standing opposite each other-D 11)

For small timber or green timber. Bore like lightning; one of those.

What sort of trees are you moving when we're talking about this? Were they redgums? What sort of timber?

Redgum and Jarrah. Redgum country is much better than jarrah for farming. Its heavier country. Jarrah is inclined to grow on gravel country. (We still used some ofthese methods in the sixties. My brother and I took down the last ofthe great ringbarked trees using a small bulldozer. Most came down easily but some did not so we would use the pulley(I think it was called a snatch block) method to increase the pulling power. We also occasionally used gelignite under Frank's watchfitl eye. He was a real expert and he could remove a big tree offa fence line with great accuracy. I think he enjoyed the explosions! It should be remembered that some ofthe clearing he describes was for the planting oforchard where it was necessary to remove the trees completely including stumps and large roots. There were other machines used which we still used occasionally including a "Trewhella" winch. These were a small but powe1ful hand operated winch which could be anchored to a stump or tree and the wire rope pulled out andfastened to what ever had to be pulled. It was useful for getting tractors out ofbogs or pulling a crawler tractor off its tracks for repairs. Another commonly used tool was the Kangaroo Jack made by the same manufacturers in Victoria. These could be hooked into a stump and used to overturn it. We did not use these two implements very much as large bulldozers could handle the biggest trees. Of course, in the days Frank is describing and indeed in my own day, getting the tree down was only half the job as it then had to be broken into pieces that could be movedfor burning. Sometimes gelignite was usedfor this too. Even with early bulldozers this job could be difficult as some ofthe trees were truly enormous. When burning up, one tried to get logs into a position to get them to burn through each other. Jarrah will not burn except with several pieces together even when it is dry. On the other hand dry redgum, once alight, will keep burning for weeks even in rain. Smouldering redgums, which emitted little or no smoke, were afi·equent source ofbushfires, sometimes months qfter they were thought to be extinguished.-D 11)

When you came to actually burning all this I suppose it was a twenty four hour a day job. Looking after the fires and so on, was it?

No, it wasn't quite that. I'll never forget my father. He was still in Parliament at the time. He got out on a Sunday... we were all away in Busselton. I'd driven the family down to Busselton for the weekend. When we get in sight of Bridgetown there was smoke going up everywhere. This was on the Sunday. On the Monday, my father was on the train on the way to Perth and of course our neighbour ... we were not always very friendly with that neighbour and he sued us for lighting fires. And, we had some Italian fellows working for us and they put them in court. These fellows. Not us. That was the worst thing that ever happened because the people questioning them in court knew what they wanted. They said. "Who lit these fires?" The spokesman; "Every man, six of us, all light them." So that was six blokes they had to deal with, not one, and they dealt with them. Fined them pretty bloody heavily. We had to pay it of course. But the old man was not there. He'd gone. He'd authorised it? He'd got them to do the job.

He did much more than authorise it, he lit it. On the assumption that they would think it was a fire coming in because he didn't light in the area itself. He got upwind and lit it on the Commonage. It went from there into our place, But that wasn't much good when they had these fellows questioned. And the old man! He was away in Perth. (Many early fa,mers had a much more casual approach to fire than today. Bushfires were very common from clearing work and there was an attitude that ifbush countly would bum it was better to burn it than leave it until it built into a huge conflagration. In many respects they followed the example ofthe original inhabitants. Frank himselfwas not above a bit offirelighting. I think I have related elsewhere how he decided to get rid ofa large heap ofdead blackberries that had been sprayed. The problem was that they were under the main telephone lines ft-om Bridgetown to Perth. So, just like his father he waited until a Sunday afternoon, lit the blackberries and departed for Perth leaving my brother and me to explain ourselves to the irate PMG crew who were called out to repair the lines. They knew ve,y well what had happened but did not choose to make too much ofan issue ofit as many ofthem worked part-time for various fa,mers and knew what the score was!! In this case there was no danger of the fire spreading which I think even Frank would not have risked.-D W)

You said you had Italian workers there.

Yes at that time.

Were they prisoners of war or was this before that?

No, no. People came out just to try the place but they were not much good. Others that came out after, Yugoslavs ... they were ... we had some of the best workers that I have ever known. Particularly two. Had them for several years. They came to me one day... they had just had a cable. Their mother had just died and they had a younger brother at home and they wanted to take off immediately and go and bring their brother back. So they did that but unfortunately for them they had neglected to take out Australian citizenship. The first thing they did when they got back home ... one got put into the army and the other went to gaol and they didn't get back for several years. One came back before the other and he went to the eastern states. But the other fellow came straight back and he came straight to me. My father was dead then. He reckoned, he'd go back to where he was but he didn't last very long. Things had changed a bit. For some reason other workers got a down on these fellows. I think, mainly because they worked. They showed any Australian worker up too badly. So he went and worked at the blast furnace; he left me and went ...

Oh, yes, in Wundowie.

Yes.

Changing now from some of the farm machinery let's think about other things. When did you first see a radio or wireless?

Oh, when they first came out. I couldn't tell you the date now.

Probably in the twenties, would it?

Oh,yes.

Earlier?

No. No it would be.. .I should say somewhere in the middle twenties.

You had one at home? Not immediately. We eventually had one. They were pretty poor sort of a thing, the first ones. We didn't bother until they improved a bit.

The first ones that you had? Did they have earphones or did you have loud speakers?

Earphones. Yes. Come to think of it I'd clean forgotten that. My older brother was very much a mechanic. I think I've told you that he was educated in England and he was training as an engineer at Faraday House and he had a big interest in it. The first one. He built one. I can see him now on the top of the house nailing a mast to each end where the normal finial is. He lengthened it and had a wire running down to an instrument he'd built himself in his room.

Of course you had to have an outside aerial for the radio then.

Oh yes.

Bridgetown eventually got a relay station didn't it? 6BY was in that vicinity.

Yes.

When did that happen?

You've got me now.

Would that have been before the Second World War?

Oh, yes. A long time before.

So you would have got some pretty good reception once that was going I suppose.

Oh, yes. It was very poor reception before.

Could you get ABC?

Yes, sometimes you could get it and sometimes you couldn't. There was a lot of interference.

Yes, because the hilly nature of the country wouldn't help.

Yes, Bridgetown was a bad situation for wireless. (I am afraid Frank's memory was playing some tricks on the subject ofwireless or perhaps he was mixing some memories with others. I think his parents had wireless quite early and I am sure his memories ofhis older brother's homemade wireless are accurate. When Frank married in 1934 there was no wireless in the house for some years. I have clear memories ofthe first arriving and being installed. It was a Stromberg-Carlson in an upright cabinet on its own legs. It was powered by a combination oflarge dry cell batteries and one two volt wet cell which was recharged at intervals. The dry cells had to be replaced eve1y couple ofyears. As mentioned, a long outside aerial strung between two tall posts was used to receive the signal. The only station available then, around 1939, was the ABC, broadcasting from 6WA at Wagin. The first thing !remember hearing was the news ofthesinldng ofthe "Grqf Spee"following the battle ofthe River Plate in late 1939. I suppose it caused great excitement because it is a strange thing to remember from such an early age (I was just over three). During the war years my brother and I were allowed to have the wireless on to listen to "The Argonauts". It would then be turned offto conserve batteries and only turned on again to listen to the BBC news, I think, at seven o'clock. I can still hear the chimes ofBig Ben followed by the announcement ofthe time; " .... o'clock Greenwich Mean Time. This is London calling" and the playing of "The British Grenadiers", perhaps not exactly in that order, followed by the war news. In the strange way ofchild hood memories the next major news I remember hearing was the breaching of the Siegfreid Line which was the major defensive line guarding the German borders. This was towards the end ofthe war and I probably registered it because ofthe popular song which had the lyric "I'm going to hang out the washing on the Siegfreid Line... " Reception was mostly fair although the milldng engine running about a quarter ofa mile away caused some interference. Radio 6BY arrived in Bridgetown in the early 50s while I was at boarding school. Howeve1~ we were rusted-on ABC listeners by then and have remained so ever since. I remember, towards the end of the war and afterwards, my mother would put the wireless on to listen to "TheLawsons" which later became the long running "Blue Hills" by Gwen Meredith and continued until the mid sixties when I was already married myself. Frank mentions the use ofearphones with early wireless. When I was at boarding school portable radios were only just appearing and were still quite large. Many boys, but not me, had built small c1ystal set wirelesses to which they listened on earphones in the dormitories at night. Crystal sets did not have batteries and relied on manipulating a platinum(! think) "cat's whisker" wire on the rough suiface ofa gallium crystal. Finding the correct station was quite difficult as the wire would pick up different stations on different parts ofthe crystal and then fine movement would find the best reception. It was a remarkable thing, which I never fitlly understood, how a little crystal could provide the power and properties to enable this to occur. I think Frank's older bro the,~ Sykes', first wireless may have been one of these.-D W)

What about the first aeroplane you ever saw?

Well, I can tell you. I was still at school and they were always looking out to where the aeroplane was coming. "Here's one, here's one." They were in a rush to see this aeroplane.

Are you talking about your Bridgetown school or Hale School?

Hale. They didn't get down to Bridgetown for quite a while.

Yes, because they used to land down on the Esplanade didn't they?

On the Esplanade, yes.

So you'd see quite a few of them coming over from Hale School.

Oh, yes. Of course my father was always interested in something like that. No sooner had they started taking passengers up. He was the first bloke on it I think!

What about yourself When did you first go up in a plane?

I was left school working on the farm and several of us went to Perth together and we used to get a bunch of us to go up in one of the planes. The Brearley' s. There were two brothers weren't there; the Brearleys? (Sir N01man Brearley is the name associated with the first air service in WA and Australia but his brother Stanley was also involved at the beginning-DW)

I think there were, two brothers. Yes.

Yes we went up in ... it was when they first started the interstate flights because a neighbour of mine, one oftheHesters ... they had some trouble with a plane and they off-loaded all the passengers and paid their fares on the railway. All except Reg. They kept him and he got back with his hands all cut and I said, "what the hell have you been doing?" He said, "those buggers kept me on the plane. They said I could stop on and they had me opening tins of petrol with a tin opener pouring it in to keep her fed."

Good heavens! That sounds pretty primitive. So you didn't go up in one of those early aircraft yourself.

No. I never had the money. It was five pounds for about five minutes, I think. I didn't have any five pounds to spare.

Tell me, when did you first get the phone on in Bridgetown? In about 1911, I suppose it would be. Five phones all went on out in the area where we lived. Only five blokes got on it and ours was number five. Starting in the town, there was one there. One of the Dousts; they had it on and another Doust, he had it on. The next neighbour, he didn't have it. He didn't want it. He didn't want telephones. He was a cunning bird because he waited for about a year and he got it on for about 1 instead 10 or something like that.

Because the line was going past his place by then?

Yes. They had to go up to our place from the main road. Had to go straight through his property. He just sat there with a grin on his face. Next thing he was on the phone. They had to pay up; the first originators. Cunning fellow, he missed all that.

Was that a direct line or was that a party line that you had?

No, direct line. There were no party lines in those days, they started a bit later. My brother-in law, one of the Hesters (Eve{yn) ... they had party lines amongst the lot of them. But the trouble with party lines, you can't be private. Anybody can listen to your conversations. And they gained a lot of information too!

Even the old fashioned manual exchange was quite bad for that wasn't it? Because the telephonist could listen in. And did! So the exchange was in Bridgetown itself?

Yes at the post office. (The phone number at "Applewood" remained Bridgetown 5 for many years well into the sixties when I lived there for several years myself. Frank comments on the problems with party lines and his remarks are true but there were a coiple ofadvantages too. In an emergency you could break in and especially in time ofbushfires the word could be spread very quickly. I think most groips on party lines had their own code telling eve,yone available to pick up their phones at once so a message could be given. The normal call signs were morse code. Frank's sister's phone for example was 75D so all 75 numbers would hear the morsesignalfor D but they would all !mow who it was for. All those systems came to an end when automatic exchanges were installed and although privacy was much better a whole web ofinfonnation and communication was lost. During bushfires it was possible to contact a manual exchange and ask the telephonist to contact all numbers in a certain area. Also, ifyou were trying to call someone and getting no answer the telephonist would often come on the line and tell you that the person was away and perhaps where they were ifyou needed them urgently as would other people on a party line. The local exchange was a communication and information service for the whole area.-DW)

Now, what about milking machines. You used to milk a whole lot of cattle by hand but did you ever go into milking machines?

Yes. I never favoured dairies. My younger brother always wanted a milking machine and my father went away for a trip to England and left me in charge. So, Joe, my brother, saw his opportunity. He got to me and he got to me and finally he succeeded because my brother-in-law, a Hester, had put in a milking machine. He bought it second-hand. I remember him borrowing my motorbike to go and look at it. And it wasn't quite as easy as he anticipated so he sold it and Joe got to me. "You buy that milking machine, you buy that milking machine." Finally, he persuaded me so by the time my father came back... we'd built up quite a dairy herd then and it was all a going concern. He thought it was good idea. I thought we'd have a hell of an argument but nothing of the sort. He was all for it. But I didn't. I never operated it. I said, "you've got your milking machine, you milk the bloody cows because I won't go near them. As long as you understand that." I bought the machine for him and except if he went away for a couple of days and I'd be saddled with this damned dairy herd and milking machine.

And were you still mainly producing cream for butter or were you selling whole milk at all? No, never sold whole milk. There was a butter factory in Bridgetown.

So, you didn't have a private round any longer selling butter? You would sell to the factory?

Yes. The private business went out.

Was that quite a good venture financially? Dairying cream for butter.

Not to my way of thinking. There were far better, easier ways of making money out of farming than that. Still a lot of people did.

What sort of cattle did you have in that herd?

A mixed lot. They had sort of grown up on the place. A lot of Jersey. But, as I say they were a mixed herd. There was one fellow who did the right thing in my way of thinking. He went straight into a pure Jersey herd and it stayed that way until he fmally left the dairy. Sold the property. Did very well out of it too. But nobody ever sold me a dairy. I got off that property and went off and bought another place and I ventured to put sheep on it. My brother wouldn't have it on. He stuck to his cattle and he remained poor. Dairy isn't a profit making thing. Not to my way of thinking. You see, the only way you make any money out of cattle is either milk them or' you butcher them. There's nothing else. That's why I liked the sheep because there are all sorts of ways. You've got an annual income from the wool and you get some amazing things happen. I remember when the wool went to a 1 a pound and seeing any sheep worth a damn would cut ten pounds that's 10 off every sheep you ran. By the time I was running about three thousand. That's a lot of money. That gives you a lift. It fell away, it only lasted a couple of years but I made so much money in that time, and didn't spend it. If you make it and spend it and have helluva a good time, that's your business but I couldn't see much sense to that. I invested it so I had other sources of income other than the farm. (Bridgetown was never a suitable area for dairying. The season was too short and butte,fat dairying, which was the only option, was always a poverty stricken industly. Notwithstanding that many farmers in the area had dairies and several farms had big herds. Dairying at "Applewood" was not carried on continuously from 1928 when the first milldng machine went in. Around 193 7 Frank and Joe bought another very good property out at Mayanup and Joe who was newly married moved out there while Frank concentrated onfhtit and sheep at "Applewood". However, due to the approach of World War II and the fact that this was depression times they decided to concentrate their resources at "Applewood" so Frank's parents retired to Busse/ton and Joe and his family moved into the old home at "Applewood". Additionally, two successive apple crops had been lost to severe hailstorms at the same time, something that had never occurred before. So, about 1940, I remember the big Lister engine from the shearing shed being wheeled on its flywheels down to the newly extended dairy and dairying recommenced. Despite what he says and however much he disliked it Frank had to become involved. The one thing that dairying had going/or it at such a very difficult time was that it provided a fairly predictable regular income. I think prices were guaranteed by the British Government which wanted all the butter we could produce. I am not sure Joe was completely wrong at the time. It was a case ofhang on and survive against lack ofincome. From apples which were often allowed to drop on the ground due to lack oflabour to grow them and shipping to get them to England. From wool too, which until the wool boom, was not a flourishing indust,y although the needs of the anned services meant there was a market. Anyway, 1945 saw the end ofthe war and Frank and Joe received the legacies fi·om their aunt in England which enabled them to split the partnership and each pursue their own agenda. Frank was lucky too, to be geared up into sheep again when the Korean War broke out and wool achieved a level ofdemand and prosperity it never achieved again. Of course both dairying and apple growing are now totally defunct in the Bridgetown area and wool almost gone also except as a by-product oflambs and meat sheep. Most ofthe next generation ofBridgetownfmmersfound the going harder and harder and many sought different careers as Bridgetown changed forever. I was, togetherwith my family, oneofthose.-DW) Tape 8 Side A Tuesday 1st May, 2001.

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number eight in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing st Home, Mount Lawley. Tape Eight is being recorded at Sandstrom on, May 1 , 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott's grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of 34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

FARMING, MARRIAGE, RABBITS, HUNTING AND FISHING

To start with Frank, can you tell me how long were you on the family farm; your parents' farm and how long was it before you went on to a property of your own?

Let me see now. I worked for a few years for my father and my brother was there and then we took it over, my brother and I in partnership.

This is your older brother or your younger brother?

Younger brother. It didn't last for very long because he got married and his wife and I didn't get on at all. Just leave it at that. So I wanted my brother to buy me out but he wouldn't do that. He said, "no, split the place" so we finished up doing that and that left me with not sufficient land really so I went and bought another property, an older property, one of the oldest properties in Bridgetown and I continued living there for quite a while after I went in to Parliament. I used to travel up and down every week.

When exactly was that change made, was it somewhere in the twenties

It's a bit difficult to put my finger on a date but I think into the thirties.

So it was well into the Depression era?

Yes. Now let me see ... I think when we finally bought the place we were just moving out of the Depression as far as I can remember. It was still pretty tough going although the Depression was supposedly over it still was tough going. Alright if you'd been well established but I wasn't as well established. I was just sort of paying the place off.

Talking about that property, how big was it?

The original place I bought was 200 acres. It had been much bigger than that but that's all that remained when I bought it. And then some property adjoining it came up for sale and I bought that and that made that property up to a bit over 400 acres. Then, of course I had another place about halfway to Manjimup, fairly well undeveloped. I developed it later. {Frank bought the historic "Geegeelup "property in 1945. It originally had been pioneered by one ofthe first generation ofthe well known Doustfamily. We moved in over the Christmas holidays 1945-46 and he lived there until 1969 when he bought a house in Nedlands. I moved in from the old "Applewood" home for one year and then my brother and I sold it in what proved to be the beginning ofthe end for the Willmotts in that part ofBridgetown although my brother, Jack, continued to live at the next door property of "Basildon Park", which we had bough~fora number ofyears more. I moved to Perth with my family in 1971. This was when many farmers reviewed their prospects and decided to move on. Frank's beloved wool industry was in total crisis and my family was reaching a critical stage of their education. At the time I was unable to take any money with me and remained in the partnership for a year or two more until with a bit ofan upturn with the introduction ofthe wool reserve price scheme, Jack was able to buy me out. Of course, ultimately, the reserve price scheme destroyed the wool indushy but it did provide a bit ofa breather for many who saw the writing on the wall. My brother did not remain full time fanning for very long either but continued to live in Bridgetown and still has business interests there.-D W)

So on that new property, what sort of farming were you doing?

It was a dairy farm when I bought it but I quickly sold off the dairy cattle and moved into sheep.

Did you have any orchard left?

Yes, but I didn't run it. The fellow I bought it from leased the orchard from me. He asked meifl'd lease it because he'd bought an orchard property and he said, "I'll lease your orchard from you if you like". I said. "You're welcome to it." I was never much of an orchardist in the later years. It was pretty good going when I was first in it. But, the very year I took it over from my father ... the last two years that he had it and I was working it for him, he sold his whole crop for 9/6(approx $0.95) a bushel in the first year and the following year it was 7 /6 and it had been about 7 /6 for years. It just took that bit of a rise. The very year I took it over, it dropped to 5/6; the very first year. So that made that pretty good; there wasn't much in orchards then. That's why I leased it; I wouldn't be bothered with it. Takes up a lot of time, orchard, and I thought I could employ myself much more profitably running sheep, so that's what I did.

What sort of sheep were you running?

Merinos.

So you were in it mainly for wool.

Yes.

I might come back to that but let's talk now about your social life at the time of the twenties and thirties. What sort of things did you do in your spare time?

There was not much spare time, I can tell you that. Saturday afternoons and Sundays was usually all we had off, if you were lucky. Sometimes you'd get tied up in things that won't wait you know.

You told me last time, I think, that you played footy. When was that?

Oh I'd stopped playing football by then. That was when I first left school and when I was working on my father's farm.

Did you have any other sporting interests, other than footy?

Yes, I got mixed up in lawn bowls, funnily enough. A friend of mine became the President of the bowling and he asked some ofus to go along on the opening night to give him some support so I went along, and my younger brother. He'd never played much sport but he took up bowls and did pretty well too. I played bowls for quite few years and then sort of ran out of time. That's not quite what happened. They expected you to travel, you know over to Nannup and Balingup and that sort of thing and I found it was interfering with my work too much so I gave it away.

Were you a good bowler?

Yes. As it happened the very first year I played it finished up with a man who'd been bowling for years. And I had to play a match with him and I damn well beat him but with a fluke really, because all of my bowls I'd bowled on one side thinking in terms of picking the kitty up, you know. Thinking, it can happen and if I'm good enough I can do it. Just happened that I was good enough. The last bowl bowled picked the kitty up and rolled right into the middle of my bowls nest. The fellow I played the match against, he was terribly put out. Still, I wasn't going to worry about that. Then it finished up with another friend of mine who had just started that year with bowls. We finished up bowling the last match. The two tyros. We went neck and neck and he beat me on the last bowl, it was that close.

Quite an exciting experience.

Yes it was. It created quite a bit of interest. And the players; both new players that year.

Did you have somebody to coach you or teach you in the first place?

Yes a bit. The fellow that introduced me to the game coached me a bit for two or three months. But I picked it up very quickly. Didn't expect to but I did.

Belonging to a bowling club involved you in social functions other than the bowling did it?

Not much in my case. There were other social and things they mixed in but I was too busy to be involved.

So did you travel with them much, to other centres to bowl?

Yes, Nannup, Balingup. They were the main ones. Although there were a few other trips we made.

Did you ever bowl in Perth at all? Did you go to a carnival in Perth at all?

No.

So that's bowling. Were you ever interested in cricket?

No. I was interested but I never really got involved. I was interested but it involved too much travelling away from home.

When were your bowling matches on? What day of the week?

Oh, mostly Saturdays.

So you weren't able to keep up attendance at a footy carnival for example?

Oh, no; I'd left the footy by then.

No. I'd had a pretty serious operation, in fact I'd spent seven months in hospital and the doctor told me; He said, "you'll be alright but you'd better be careful for at least twelve months." And he said "Don't get playing football." So I never played football anymore.

Was that the operation you told me about some long time ago when you had to come to Perth?

Yes. Seven months, I think it was, in hospital. All by allowing two country doctors to operate on me and when they opened me up and found what there was they never had the sense to close me up and do nothing more about it and send me to Perth but they thought they could do it and they made a howling mess of it and they caused the seven months I spent in hospital.

Remind me, did you tell me you were in the Mount Hospital or was that somewhere else? No I wasn't in the Mount, oh ... it used to be in Havelock St in those days. It'll come to me in a minute. (I think the hospital was called St Omer-DW)

In Havelock St, did you say?

Yes. It moved from there because me father had an operation himself and he was at a different hospital in Rheola Street.

Going back to your being on the farms did you spend much time in Claremont then when you were back on the farm in Bridgetown?

No. My father lost his seat in parliament and eventually sold the house. My mother and sister used to stay there a bit but he eventually sold it. When he left Parliament he sold it up.

Did he live back in Bridgetown then?

No ... he sort of... he travelled backwards and forwards but he was so used to living at the WA Club that he spent more time there than he did on the farm. He wasn't really interested much in the farm. My mother was the farmer, she looked after the farm. (Frank used to say that his father went into Parliament too young, although he was forty-four, and was lost when he left Parliament. That was partly why Frank, who never really intended to enter Parliament, left it until he was fifty-one which he then felt was too old to really rise through the ranks. I think, nowadays, when there is less ofa tendency to enter Parliament young and make a lifetime career, that ently at a later age is desirable. After gaining some life experience. I know my one attempt in 1971 was much too young.­ DW)

So she was quite happy to come back from the city and live on the property.

Oh, yes. Because my sister got married to a local fellow in Bridgetown, one of the Hesters, and she was quite happy there. They were always pretty thick, my mother and my sister.

Did you learn to dance as a young fellow?

Yes, I was quite a good dancer.

And how often were you able to practice you dancing?

Oh there was a good deal of dancing in Bridgetown in those days. Quite often. Every few weeks there was a dance of some sort. They used to use things like the Bridgetown Show, the hospital and the main big dance of the year was run for the hospital. They did pretty well out of it too I think. It was well attended. They'd come from far and wide for the Hospital Ball.

Can you tell me which dances you enjoyed most?

Oh, I danced almost everything except the barn dance. I don't know why I never learned. Lancers and all those other dances. Square dances. Did all those.

What about the new one that came in the twenties; the Charleston? Did you do the Charleston?

No I never learned it, I don't know why. For some reason it didn't take on in Bridgetown. A few did it but it never became a general dance.

So what other things in Bridgetown were there to do other than we've talked about so far if you had spare time on your hands? Didn't have much spare time.

Did you go shooting at all?

Yes I was always keen on shooting, very keen and a damned good shot in my day too.

And was that shooting for a putpose, like getting rid of vermin or was it shooting competitively?

No, mostly getting rid of vermin. Two friends of mine, two Doust brothers were very keen, they were well known. And I became just as well known. Any body who wanted the kangaroos shot out a bit would ask us to go. We'd go all over the place to do that.

Mainly kangaroos.

Always kangaroos, yes.

We mentioned rabbits the other day. When did they start becoming noticed in Bridgetown?

I suppose the very end of the 1920s was the start and we didn't think much about them. We used to shoot them but we didn't realise what was going to happen. They took a while to settle down, then all of a sudden you found your whole farm getting dug up. They were a terrible thing. They walked some people off (their farms) and I came very close to throwing it in myself. I thought I'd never beat these damned things but then they brought the myxomatosis in and that set them back. You could handle them from then on. (For more details ofthe rabbit plague and its eventual defeat my own recollections are recorded at the end ofthis tape. Urifortunately Frank's memories are a bit confiised.-D ff;

They tried something else before? 1080 was it?

Yes.

Was that not so good?

No I don't know what happened. It sort of wiped them out for a while but then they beat it. Didn't seem to affect them much.

How did you go about trying to control them

Poison. Apples with strychnine was the best. They used to use carrot and that sort of thing but we had an orchard. Plenty of windfall apples. We'd put them through a little grinder we had. I remember one time, the biggest haul I ever got was alongside the Commonage. It was the Common Ground which was adjacent to our country and you laid apple for a couple of nights, then you miss a night, then you put the poison in. Then I was late getting home, we were working, and we finished up ... actually it was dark by the time we finished laying the poison. I got the biggest kill I've ever seen! We woke up to it then. Put it out when it's just light enough to see. Coming home after we had laid about a mile of poison. Driving back down the furrow where we had laid the poison and there were rabbits bowling over in the air. I have never seen anything like it. They very quickly absorb strychnine. I don't know any other animal that is the same. They have fits; it's a cruel damned poison but it's almost instantaneous with a rabbit And these rabbits were bowling over there and I think we picked up over a thousand. This Commonage ground was infested; I'd never ever had a kill like it before

How did you dispose of them? The dead bodies?

I put them out on the Commonage, a great heap of them. Somebody came to me about a week afterwards and said, "did you put those rabbits on the Commonage?" I said, "Yes". "Well", he said, "you'd better go and have a look." "Why". "Well you wouldn't believe the number of foxes that you got with that poison. You must have got every damned fox within a quarter of a mile of that heap". There were foxes everywhere.

So did the foxes die because of the strychnine?

Well they ate the rabbits and it was the strychnine left in the rah bits that killed them.

So, it was a double whammy?

Yes.

Were foxes a problem to you as well?

Yes. Yes, they were a bit hot on the lambs. One of the local policemen was a pretty good shot and we were under two miles from town and he used spend a lot of his time with me in the evening shooting foxes.

Thinking about rabbits leads you to thinking about pasture because of course they made some inroads into your feed didn't they? But, in your time of going into sheep they were just developing some of the new pastures weren't they? Some of the clovers?

Yes. The subterranean clover. But I wish I'd never seen the stuff because it affected sheep. All your best ewes became barren. Even more in the wheatbelt. Their ewes all became barren. Funny thing. Oestrogen is what the clover contained and oestrogen sent all the ewes barren.

Well that was a self defeating thing wasn't it? So you had that problem a bit yourself?

Yes.

How did you manage to overcome that?

I forget what the blazes I did overcome it with. I can't remember what I did. I found something that... I can't remember what I did that improved it very much. I can't remember what it was. (Clover certainly caused problems, especially in ewes but I think Frank is exaggerating the problems it caused us. He mostly ran wethers which are not much affected and even our ewes were not severely affected. The remedy, really, was to encourage more mixed pastures and to gradually replace the worst varieties ofclove,~ such as Dwalganup, with lower oestrogen varieties. Fortunately, the variety which did best in Bridgetown was Mount Barker, which was much less ofa problem. Ironically one ofthe means of getting more balanced pastures was to sow ryegrass. After about forty years ofthat a condition known as ryegrass toxicity developed and 1yegrass became an even bigger problem than clover had ever been. Again, Bridgetown was not very severely affected because it was not generally a cropping district. Ryegrass grows in profi1sion after cropping and became a majorproblem in the Great Southem-DW)

Oh wait a minute, yes. There's something else. I remember we used to go out at night, a few ofus and catch the rabbits with nets and inoculate them with whatever this stuff was that we found which then spread itself. That worked pretty well for a while and we don't think we ever had real trouble with rabbits again.

That wasn't the myxomatosis?

No. I think there was something else they introduced afterwards. The myxomatosis worked for a while and then it died down. I can't remember what it was but they introduced this other thing and that got on top of them. Or it did for a long time. But, I remember when I bought this other place, the old "Geegeelup" property they were getting bad again then. I bought a little bulldozer and I used it to rip all the burrows and that was more effective than anything else. I had a couple of dogs that lived with the tractor and 90% you would bury and any that did get away the dogs would grab them till they got so damned tired they wouldn't chase them.

EndofSideA

Tape 8 SideB

Frank turning now to your friendships, who were your closest associates on the property, before you were married say?

I knew pretty well everybody because, you see the beginning of our property was only a little over a mile from the town so I knew all the town people much more than a lot of the farmers further out would have known them. I knew pretty well everybody.

Were there some who were very close friends?

Yes. Some of the town fellows used to pack apples and that sort of thing for me. Sometimes I'd pick them up early in the morning and give them a ride home at night. It was only a bit over a mile as I say. No trouble to get labour for a little distance like that

You said you had a friend who used to enjoy shooting foxes with you. Who was he?

The local policeman. Jim Watts. Jim Watts was his name. He and the sergeant didn't get on too well, and he used to nick off this Jim Watts. A fellow that I knew very well was the rabbit inspector for the Roads Board. You know it was compulsory to kill the rabbits and he had to do rounds particularly for further out parts of the area to make sure they did. Otherwise they wouldn't, some of them. Some would conscientiously deal with the rabbits and others ... they would re-infest those that did.

So how was the policeman tied up with this too?

Yes. He was a bit of a rogue himself. He'd do anything to get away from the sergeant because I remember the sergeant coming to me one day and asking me. "Has Jim Watts been out and taken your statistics yet?" I said. "Yes, he took them some time ago". "Oh, did he?" "Yes". I named the time. Something else was happening,. I can't remember what it was. But, the old sergeant looked very doubtful at me, he thought I was covering for Watts but I wasn't. (Jim Watts' son, John, was later a well known footballer and media personality. -D W)

What weapons did you use against the foxes when you were shooting with him.

A shotgun. An automatic, a semi-automatic five shot. You wanted it. A double barrelled shotgun is not much good because they always made one choke bore and one open bore, so you only had one really effective shot at any distance whereas the semi-automatic I had; she had five in the magazine, or four in the magazine and one in the breech' and she was self loading of course, all you had to do was pull the trigger. She wasn't quite automatic like a machine gun but I shot with a lot of people and they all commented. "I've never seen such a hard hitting gun". I've knocked kangaroos down at a hundred yards, no trouble at all. "Where the hell did you get that?" I said, "My father bought it and never used it because he got scared ofit. He didn't try to use it the right way". I said, "I took it over and I've used it for years now and I can tell you it's the hardest hitting gun I've ever seen".

What make was it?

A Winchester. American. Coming now to your personal life. Being on your own on the farm can't have been much fun. Did you have some girl friends?

Oh. I had a few girl friends.

In fact, the girl I eventually married, lived with us for 12 months. Her parents had a station up at Marble Bar and at the age of, I think she was twelve, they brought her down, her parents. Their doctor advised them to get her out of the heat up there for at least a year and the only person they knew in Bridgetown was the local parson and his wife and they came out and brought her mother and this girl with them and called on my mother and as soon as they met they realised they had known one another for years. They had been on the goldfields together as young brides. They travelled up together. So they said. "Why doesn't Frances come and stay with the Willmotts if they are agreeable." "Oh yes". My mother jumped at the idea. "Yes", she'd be one of the family. There were four kids in the family or three living at home. The other boy was in England. So she stayed with us for 12 months and we remained good friends because her father was stationed up there ... was tied there, but not long after he was moved down to Perth. I think it was because of his health really because he didn't live much longer. I only knew him for a few months and he died. By then we were living in the house in Perth, we had a house in Claremont actually and the other family bought a house quite near us, only just over the road. (Frank's wife's father, Percy Riches, was the Stipendiary Magistrate and Mining Warden at Marble Bar. He was also the halfowner of"Carlindie" Station about halfway between Port Hedland and Marble Bar which was run by his brother-in-law, Archie McGregor, who lived on the station. How "this girl" came to spend twelve months with the Willmotts is a bit more complicated than Frank relates. After their doctor advised herparents to send her south she was sent down to a school in West Perth called "Cowandilla" which was a preparat01y school for Perth College. They probably chose it because of their close association with the Church ofEngland. The Riches were a much more religious family than the Willmotts. Anyway, my mother hated the life at boarding school. She was quite young, and leaving her ve,y close family must have been traumatic. I remember, even in my day, children being sent down to Hale from the north-west and south east Asia as young as eight. Some would only get home once a year and some of them suffered dreadjitlly from homesickness. She became quite ill and her parents became extremely worried about her and so the offer from the Willmotts must have been very welcome. In addition to eventually manying Frank, she made a lifelongfriend ofhis sister, Kitty.-DW)

You haven't told me their name, Frank. What was the name?

Riches. Frances Riches.

And how did you get to the stage where you popped the question?

Oh, it grew from friendship to more than friendship and I finally asked her to marry me.

Was she in Bridgetown when you proposed or did you meet her in Perth?

She was in Perth. Yes, they were living in a house in Claremont. In fact they lived there for years until their daughter married me. Then her mother moved into the house we had had in Claremont. She had a sister. My father sold the house to her sister and they finished up the two sisters living together. I've never seen two people who were sisters who were so entirely different. Absolutely different.

Were your parents still alive when you were married?

Yes.

Can you tell me about the actual ceremony? Can you remember any thing about it, where it took place and what it consisted of? I was married in Christchurch in Claremont because the girl I married ... it had been their church for years. Although they weren't living so close as they were when they were when they were living in the next door street. They'd moved up to a different house, a house in Grant St. If you know Claremont at all, Grant street starts on the top side of the line and crosses the line and continues right down to Cottesloe.

That's a nice part of Claremont that hill.

Yes, beautiful position they had there.

So you were married in Christchurch. Who was in the wedding party?

Oh it was very small, just the two families, my parents and my brother.

The older or the younger brother?

The younger brother, the older brother was still in England. (This cannot be right as Sykes had returned from England in 1920 and the wedding was in 1934. However, Sykes was married by 1934 with a young child and that may be why he was not at the wedding-D Ff?. He was my best man, my young brother, in spite of being a terrible stutterer. He stammered like blazes. My parents didn't realise, I don't think, when it happened. I knew perfectly well; he had an operation for adenoids, he was about five and he started stammering and he got worse and worse, much worse and he never got on top of it. Stammered for the rest of his life.

Who was the officiating priest?

The Reverend John Bell, he was quite a friend of the girl I married ... her mother. He was a very nice fellow too. Quite a young ... unmarried. I don't know what became of him, he was there for some years. Then he went away somewhere and I never heard any more about him. (I think he was later Dean ofPerth.-Dlf?

So did you have a big ceremony afterwards? A dinner or something to celebrate afterwards?

No, not big. Just a few close friends and that was held in my mother-in law's house. My father was not a person for great weddings. He said, "You can have any sort of wedding you want but personally I think it's a family affair. These great big weddings are not my taste. Because some of these weddings have hundreds of people there and you only knew half of them." I didn't take to those sort of weddings either, although I had attended a few. I was a best man several times before I took it on myself.

Were you best man for your brother then, your younger brother?

No, a very great friend of his, more than mine. Thomson ... they were at Greenbushes or a property out ofGreenbushes and my younger brother and Guy Thomson were great cobbers. I was never quite so enamoured of him we just didn't ... he stood for parliament and I didn't support him. I had my own reasons, very good ones to my way of thinking, and he never forgave me. When I stood for parliament myself some years later. Oh! He opposed me like hell but it didn't do any good. Particularly in Bridgetown. I'll never forget. I was pretty well known in Bridgetown. I knew everybody as I said and by God they stuck to me. 250 odd I think it was and my Labor opponent got 15 votes. That's the way it was.

That's a story we'll take up another time, the politics. Going back to your marriage then, did you have a honeymoon

Yes we spent our honeymoon in Albany. I've never liked Albany. It's too cold for me. Even by Bridgetown standards!?

Yes. Albany's a lot colder than Bridgetown. I spent the coldest night of my life there after I was in Parliament. Yes, we had a candidate standing there and they sent me down to sort of run the election for him because I came from the area. They said, "do you know Albany?" "Oh, yes I know Albany". I didn't like it much though. I didn't tell them that. I was staying in a hotel in a double bed. The only room I could get was a double bed and I'll never forget it. I spent several nights there and I absolutely froze every night. Absolutely froze. They'd never get me back in Albany!

Your wedding night was a bit more comfortable than that I suppose.

Damn it all, these things are not working, or else it's my hearing. Yes, there's something wrong with my hearing aid. I've got a fellow coming tomorrow I think. They think they know what's the matter, but, "it'll be a bit expensive" he said. "We'll give you a different hearing aid." They have mentioned them to me before but I said, "how much are they going to cost?" He said, "they're expensive. They'll cost you a little over $4000."

Still if it helps you hear it'll be money well spent I guess.

Yes. I took a bit of persuading by my daughter when I said, "Oh that's too much". She said, "don't you be a fool, you get them". She said, "You're going to be unable to hear anything I say soon". I think I'm needing a different type. They tell me it will do the job for me. (Frank's hearing caused many problems throughout this series of interviews and the new hearing aids, although better, did not cause a miraculous improvement-DW)

Coming back to your honeymoon, where in Albany did you stay on your honeymoon?

In a hotel. It's the leading hotel in Albany or was in those days.

The London Hotel, perhaps?

No.

The Freemasons Hotel?

No.

The Premier? The Premier is just diagonally opposite the Town Hall. (The interviewer, John Ferrell, was from Albany, hence his knowledge ofthe town-DW)

No.

Or the White Star Hotel?

No. I'm beginning to think it must have been the Freemasons. I can't remember.

That was down on Stirling Terrace. Looking out towards the railway and over to the harbour.

The railway runs just over the road from it.

Well that could have been the Freemasons then.

Yes. I think that was it.

That was a rather pleasant building. It was quite a nice place anyway, I think it was the Freemasons. (I am sure I was told it was the Freemasons.-D 1¥)

It suffered from Tom Wardle development and it doesn't exist any longer, he knocked it down. So it's just a parking area now where the Freemasons was. Which is very sad in a way because it spoilt that nineteenth century streetscape along the terrace. Anyway while you were at Albany on honeymoon where did you get to around the town. What sort of things did you see and do?

We spent most of the time in the car and travelled all over the district. I was interested enough and my wife was interested enough too. To see the things she could while she was there. No sitting around in the pub, we went there to sleep that's about all.

What about the south coast. What parts of the south coast did you like best.

Well, I didn't like any ofit very much, it was too cold. Always has been that southern area, so I'd sooner go to Geraldton. (Mum and Dad were married on December 12th 1934, so it was notwinter!-DW)

Did you try any fishing there?

Not when I was on my honeymoon but I did a lot of fishing. I owned a thirty-two foot motor launch later on in life and I used to do a lot of fishing.

Did you do that in Albany?

No!! Either out of Perth around Rottnest or Busselton.

So you were going out quite deep with a big boat like that?

Oh yes. There's a place out offBusselton called the Pinnacles and if you ever went there you wouldn't wonder why because there's mountains under the sea. You'd look in the water glass and you'd think. "God, it's going to poke the bottom out of the boat in a minute". Very deep water too and I never ever went there without catching fish, mostly dhufish and snapper. Catch a jewie every time you went there, just about.

And you'd be using handlines would you for that; or rods?

Oh. I always used a rod. Because a son-in-law of mine, he went out with me and ... he was a fisherman, loved fishing and when he got there he said, "Gawd almighty, I haven't got a line for these fish". I said, "well you have my line". "Oh no, I can't do that", he said. "Yes go on, I'll take your line." So he had a great time. He must have caught half a dozen big fish. And there was another fellow with me, I can't remember who it was, there were three ofus in the boat. Ob. I know who he was. He was a fellow I bad bunted kangaroos with quite a lot. Mainly in a bush paddock I owned, a thousand acres. And I knew be had a habit of getting bushed. I never saw anybody who had less sense of direction. I'd say, "now if you get bushed you fire two shots and stay where you are. Whatever you do don't get through a fence because if you get out of this you can go to the coast on the Donnelly without any fence to stop you and that would be 50 or 60 miles, all open country". Well, this boy would get bushed and bushed and bushed, time and again. I knew exactly where I was and I'd come and get him. He went with a brother in law of mine on a back road into Manjimup. I forget what they call the area now. I'd been there a few times. Anyway, my brother-in-law was led off by this fellow, Ramage was bis name, and they got bushed. They had the Police out searching for them. I only heard about it afterwards. I'd have gone and found them. I knew that country quite well and Evelyn Hester, my brother in law, told me who he'd been with. "Did he try to lead you?" "Yes, he reckoned he knew the area". I said, "I've never known anybody ever who could get bushed like that fellow. I'd kid him and tnrn him around twice like that anywhere within 300 yards of a road or something. He'd never get out, he'd never get out". He's got absolutely no sense of direction at all and he was exactly the same at sea. Exactly the same. Funny, I've never seen anybody in my life with as little sense of direction. You never went anywhere with him that he didn't get bushed.

Was he able to catch fish?

Oh reasonably. But he'd come with me as company in my boat to return to Perth so I set her on a compass course and I said, "keep her on that course". I had something to do on the boat and I came back and I said, "where the hell are you going?" I said, "do you ... you're heading straight for the lights there. Look at your compass". Then I found out he couldn't read a compass. He was heading straight into ... what's the name of the place ... Capel .. .it's all rocks in there, if you've been onto the beach at Capel it's rocky coast and he was headed straight into it and he'd been going for some time. So I jerked the bloody thing over and said, "how long have you been on that course?" He couldn't tell me. And I said, "well I'm buggered now, I'm going to anchor because I can't find my way now because I don't know how far you've gone at night, you were headed straight for Capel. You'll knock the bottom out of the boat if you keep on that course". So I had to anchor until daylight so that I could see and pick my course up again.

Did you often do the trip between Perth and Busselton in the boat?

Oh yes, once a year. Mostly, I spent my summer time in the boat in Busselton and I kept her there.

End ofTape 8 SideB

DEL WILLMOTT'S MEMORIES OF THE RABBIT PLAGUE

(When Frank, gave his recollections ofthe rabbit plagues ofthe 30s and 40s, I am afraid he got some of the events a bit confused. As it is a matter ofsome historical interest I decided to set down my own memories from childhood in the 40 'sand then ofmy own active participation in the battle and eventual victory after I left school andjoined Frank on the farm.

The rabbits arrived before I was born in 1936 and I think Frank is about right in saying that it was the late 1920s or perhaps a bit earlier. By the time ofmy earliest memories in the early 1940s "Applewood" was heavily infested and with very high bracken fern covering a large proportion ofsome paddocks and fallen limbs fi·om the many dead ringbarked trees still standing they had plenty ofcover ft-om which to infest almost all the pasture areas. At dusk the open areas were literally carpeted with rabbits. It was an almost indescribable sight'to see the whole ground move when a noise was made and the rabbits tookfright. It should be remembered that by this time the Second World War was in progress and many farm tasks had fallen into neglect due to shortages oflabour.

Several, largely ineffective, control methods had been attempted, including poisoning with strychnine as well as arsenic and a phosphorus product that glowed in the dark called "Grim". Poisoning was carried out by plowing a .fi1rrow with a single furrow plough and as Frank says in his interview "free feeding" with unpoisoned baits. This technique was not used for "Grim". More about that later. The freshly turned earth would attract the rabbits and they would get used to feeding on apple or oats which were the most commonly used baits although others including jam and carrots were used. After free-feeding/or two or three nights most rabbits in the near vicinity would have been attracted to the trail and when the poisoned baits were introduced they would feed liberally on them and many would be poisoned before the more shy feeders realised something was wrong and took fright.

"Grim" poison came packed in sealed metal cans which had to be opened with a tin opener. Special care had to be taken with this poison because not only was it highly toxic but, due to its phosphorous content, it was also afire hazard. "Grim" poison was laid with a purpose made "poison cart". I think there were several types ofthese but the most commonly used one in our area was attached to the back ofa vehicle or horse drawn cart and comprised a pivotedframe, to enable it to ride over uneven ground, to which was attached a small tyne to create a narrow furrow into which the bait was dropped. It had a small square tank with a removable top into which the mixed bait was placed. A spring loaded plunger was used to compress the bait down onto an auger feed which was directly driven by an iron ground wheel about 30 cm in diameter. The auger was designed to force the bait through a small hole in the side and to cut it into separate baits. From memory each bait was about 2cm long and½ cm thick. It was important to mix the bait correctly so its consistency suited the machine. To achieve this and to attract the rabbits the poison was mixed with bran. The type ofsmall tyne used meant that this machine could only be used on open bare ground. Howeve1~ it could be laid fairly quickly and was not "fi·eefed". Because ofthisfanners would lay a lot oftrail and the whole area would be patterned with loops and turns. I rather think, although I am not sure, that this poison was used after the first rain before the first grass appeared. I remember it had quite a pungent smell and I think cannot have been very palatable to the rabbits so it was probably only effective in conditions where there was little else available. An interesting sidelight is that during the war the manufacturers must have been using recycled material to produce the metal cans as I can remember Jack and I waiting to see what picture or pattern would appear inside as the cans were emptied and washed out. I particularly remember a bright blue picture ofa ship!! "Grim" poison was no longer being used by the time I left school so as far as I can remember and my only direct experience with it was to dispose ofsome old unused poison found in one ofthe sheds. As a youngster I watched it being used on a number of occasions similar to the events described above.

Fairly high levels ofkill could be achieved by these methods ofpoisoning but,for reasons discussed below, they were largely ineffective as a control measure. Also there were always areas in which it was difficult to attract the rabbits to the trail due to the presence ofgreen grass and other more attractive feed. Most poisoning was carried out in late summer and early autumn when most ofthe paddocks were bare but in Bridgetown there were always creeks and other moist areas, which became nodes for re-infestation.

In his account, Frank mentions the extraordinary success ofa particular occasion when strychnine poison mixed with chopped apple was used along the country adjoining the commonage which lies across the Peninsular Roadfrom "Applewood". The apple had been chopped using a locally made grater which consisted ofa metal dntm about 30cm wide and 20cm in diameter with holes punched in such a way that when it was turned with a handle the edges of the holes tore small pieces ofapple.from the.fruit. The grated apple accumulated in the drum to be removed manually at intervals and placed in metal buckets (usually opened four gallon (25 litre) kerosene tins) for mixing with poison. The drum was mounted in a wooden frame with a feed tray for the apples. It was fairly crude and slow but effective. This was the first time I can remember a specific event and I know it took place in late 1945 as it was after Frank had bought a new lend lease Ford truck and before we moved to Geegeelup early in 1946. Both Jack and I were in the truck with Frank and his old hunting.friend Len "Bandy" Doust and we both clearly remember the sight of rabbits literally turning handsprings in the lights ofthe truck as we drove home after laying the poison. I remember old Bandy and Frank pulling our legs about the fimction ofa small red light on the dashboard of the truck which we, much late,~ realised was the high beam warning light. I also remember another occasion at about the same time when another very successfitl ldll resulted in a huge pile ofrabbits in the "Hundred Acres" on the other side ofthe fmm near the main Perth road. On that occasion Bandy set in to sldn the dead rabbits (sldns were still worth quite good money) and continued until the rabbits became too decomposed to handle. Even after several days there were many left and on that occasion a large hole was dug to bury them all in.

I should also mention that Bandy was a man ofmany parts. In his youth he had studied veterinmy science for a short time and due to a shortage ofqualified vets often provided help to local farmers in dealing with calving problems and other stock ailments. He was also, for some time, the local rabbit inspector, having been appointed to this post by the local Roads Board which was responsible for vermin control. His job in this capacity was to patrol the district and, where rabbit infestations were found, to encourage landholders to undertake control measures. If they did not comply the Roads Board could issue orders and prosecute offenders. I think it was largely a hopeless task during the war and in its immediate aftermath. How could he identify an infestation when the entire district was crawling? It was also slow because Bandy had to carry out his duties on horseback or with a horse and cart.

The storage ofpoisons on fanns was a hazard and people were much more casual about such things in those days. There were several instances ofchildren being poisoned that I remember hearing about, fortunately none of them fatal. Indeed, we had a fright with Deidre and Helen when we first went to live at "Applewood" when they found some old arsenic powder and had started to play with it before I realised what they were doing. We were fairly certain they had not ingested any but they were admitted to hospital overnight. It was a nasty experience which it still upsets me to think about.

Other methods ofcontrol included fi1migation with cyanide or using a charcoal burner similar to the wartime gas producers used on cars to provide fuel to replace petrol. The charcoal burner produced carbon monoxide which was blown down the burrows with a hand operated blowe1~ usually with one person turning the blower handle and another or more filling in the burrow entrances as emerging smoke showed their position. This was labour intensive work and was only mildly effective especially ifthe people filling in the entrances were not sufficiently diligent and observant and allowed gas to escape. Also, because it was lighter than air it tended not to get into the deeper parts ofthe burrow. Some idea ofthe size ofsome ofthe burrows can be gained by knowing that it could take several men all day to fully cover one burrow. I never saw cyanide being used but I th ink it was supplied as a powder known as "Cynogas" andptiffed down the burrows with a special pump, one ofwhich I seem to recall being at "Applewood" when I was child. We also had a charcoal burner mounted on a sled and I saw this worldng on many occasions in the mid 40 's.

There had also been some attempts at controlling the menace with rabbit netting most notably the well documented attempts to stop them entering WA by the erection ofthe No 1 and No 2 rabbit prooffences. I think one ofthem is still recognised as the longest fence anywhere in the world. Althoi1gh these fences ultimately failed they did slow the invasion and still, in 2001, play an important role in the control ofother animals, especially emus, which build up in the pastoral areas during good seasons and then arrive in huge numbers seeldng feed when the inevitable poor season hits the pastoral zone. Rabbit netting had also been utilised at a Jann level, but high cost and the onset ofthe war meant these efforts had not made much impact on the overall problem.

Another common method ofcontrol that was attempted was the use ofsteel jawed traps (now banned for cruelty). These were set either in the burrow mouths or along a plowedfi1rrow and patrolled morning and evening. The rabbits were usually skinned and the skins, which were worth quite good money, stretched on wire frames for drying and later sale. After the war quite an industry developed involving sale ofrabbit carcasses for human and pet consumption. Tntcks ran through many areas on a daily basis picldng tp rabbits which had been left at the roadside under a shady tree hanging over a wire in "pairs"and covered with hessian sacldng. The "pairs" were fanned by cutting a slit heh ind the achilles tendon in one rabbit and threading a leg ofthe other through. One wonders how many bellyaches resulted in the cities from the consumption ofthese rabbits which were considered something ofa delicacy by many people. Many rabbits were caught by professional trappers who would come on to the property and set large numbers of traps until the numbers being caught dropped to an uneconomic level. Unfortunately, although not fully realised at the time, it was actually not the 90% ofthe rabbits that may be killed by these methods (although I suspect most attempts achieved much lower results) but the closeness to 100% that could be achieved that was significant in rabbit control. I don't remember the exact figures myselfbut I think that CSIRO and the then WA Department ofAgriculture estimated in the fifties that any ldll below 97-98% had only a ve,y minor and tempormy effect on rabbit population due to their phenomenal capacity to breed quickly. This meant that trappers, who had a vested interest in maintaining economic numbers ofrabbits (from their point ofview), made little or no contribution to rabbit control and there was occasional minor passive resistance to serious attempts to combat the rabbit plague especially from fmmers who had largely given tp the fight and started to ''farm" their rabbits. Fortunately, mostfanners did not adopt this attitude and recognised that left unchecked, the rabbits would eat the heart out ofAustralia and destroy most of its natural vegetation as well as causing erosion and irreparable damage to fannlands. Regrettably, some of the fmming methods that were used also led to serious environmental damage but before being too critical offarmers for over clearing in the fifties and sixties we should remember that removing cover for rabbits was one ofthe most effective methods ofcontrolling them and leaving scattered areas ofwoodland in paddocks almost guaranteed rapid re-infestation.

Before concluding the st01y on trapping I should tell that both Jack and I earned ourfirst money trapping rabbits. I started at the age ofabout ten and Frank had to specially weaken some trap springs so I could set them. He heated them with a blow/amp to take some ofthe temper out ofthe metal. Ofcourse this meant that some rabbits managed to get their legs free and escape but I still managed to catch enough with my dozen or so traps to earn some usefitl pocket money. I would go out late in the afternoon and set the traps well down burrow mouths so sheep could not get caught and next morning I would get up early enough to remove the catch from the traps and sldn them and place the skins on the wire frames to dry before going to school. I have always hated the smell ofrabbit since. When I.first started rabbit skins were in good demand and brought a good price. The skins were sold to Bob Urquart who ran a local produce business. They had been in strong demand for maldng the hats which were then worn by all Australian men and ofcourse during the war large quantities were used to make the famous Australian slouch hat worn by soldiers. I seem to remember they brought about 6/Bd ($0.67) per pound with about eight sldns to the pound when I.first started trapping. This was good money for a schoolboy but unfortunately for me it did not last and within a short time they became almost unsaleable. I think I gave up then and just shot rabbits for fun after that (yes, we did that sort ofthingforfim in those days; the hunting instinct is stronger than many people realise) but by the time I went to boarding school in 1950 the trucks were running and Jack was able to earn good money again as the truck ran right past our door at "Geegeelup ". Rabbits sold this way were not sldnned,just gutted. I think the company which picked up the rabbits was Diamond Foods which may have been a subsidimy of the then Westralian Farmers Co-op, now Weifarmers. I am not sure whether or not the trucks that picked up the rabbits were refrigerated. I think they were just covered in fly-wire. The run would be done early in the day and the rabbits placed in cold storage before transfer t6 Perth.

One further point should be made about control methods and that is that both serious trapping and poisoning involved removing all livestock from the area while control measures were underway. In the comparatively undeveloped state ofmany fanns in those days this was not always easy and hungry animals sometimes managed to break through fences with catastrophic results especially ifsheep got onto poisoned areas. Also poisoned rabbit carcasses were lethal to fmm dogs as well as foxes and could remain so for several months, especially in later years when I 080 poison came into use. We lost several well loved dogs this way despite continual vigilance, wearing ofmuzzles and always tying them up when not in our company. After poisoning, it was necessary to cover the remaining bai~ usually utilising disc cultivators before allowing stock back in.

All ofthese methods ofcontrol had been in use for a period before I can remember but the rabbit plague had become steadily worse until by the late 40 'sonly the exceptionally high prices for Jann products following the war gave hope that farming would not collapse in the face of these all consuming ve,min, before some better remedies were found.

Fortunately, relief was at hand and when it came was in a number offorms and probably it will always be a matter ofcontention as to which made the greatest contribution. Before outlining these developments it is worth noting that in New Zealand, which was similarly afflicted, and probably had an even more difficult terrain with which to contend, a similar level ofcontrol was achieved at about the same time without the use ofmyxomatosis. I understand that a later illegal introduction ofmyxomatosis to that country occurred and because it was a weakened strain ofthe disease rabbits rapidly became immune to it. I mention this because in Australia the release ofthat disease is often given almost all the credit for the eventual success. The truth, in my opinion, is that myxomatosis alone could only ever have given temporary respite and even today as manpower on farms becomes ever smaller there is a risk that rabbits could again get out of control if other more basic controls are neglected and too much reliance is placed on biological control such as myxomatosis and the more recently released calcivirus. Having said that there is no doubting their value especially in the unpopulated semi-desert areas where rabbits can build up to huge numbers and do untold damage to native flora before moving into agricultural areas. It is also probably true to say that the burst ofunprecedented prosperity ofagriculture which took place in the late 40 'sand 50 's provided the resources which might otherwise never have been found.

With a bit more money and man-power available after the war the first inroads began to be made on rabbit numbers. The first task was to clear the paddocks offallen timber and bracken so that burrows could be found and treated. Bulldozers began to appear soon after the war, some ofthem, including the one Frank later bought, being ex-military machines being sold off. Rubber tyred wheel tractors were coming into use to replace the earlier unwieldy and dangerous steel wheeled tractors which together with small crawler tractors and horses had been used previously. The new tractors included a power take offwhich enabled the use ofmuch more versatile mowers and later slashers with which to attack the bracken fern.

A betterfumigant had become available called chloropicrin which was stpplied in liquid Jann and was extremely unpleasant to use as it had a similar effect to tear gas if one were unlucky enough to inhale any. Gas masks were not considered necessary, as I am sure they would be today. There were several methods ofusing it but we (it was still in use after I lefi school and I used a lot ofit) used to nail a small used sardine tin on the end ofa broomstick about a metre long. A small wad ofwaste wool or bagging would be soaked with a small quantity ofthe liquid and placed well down the bu1row which would then quickly be filled in. Provided all the holes in a burrow were found andfilled in th is new gas was very effective. However, this latter was not always easy as rabbit burrows often would have one or two outlets some distance from the main entrances which could be obscured by a pile ofstones or the roots ofa tree. Sometimes, inspection a couple ofdays later would reveal that the burrow had been reopened and so a new search would be undertaken and the burrow retreated. There were some burrows especially along creek banks and in scrubby areas which were impossible to treat and remained sources ofre-infestation. These areas were not susceptible to poisoning either due to the presence ofgreen grass in summer and autumn when poisoning was carried out. These nodes remained a problem until myxomatosis became effective in the mid-fifties. The treatment and destruction ofburrows became the main focus ofattack once the swface rubbish and bracken were cleaned tp. In the late forties or early fifties the Agriculture Protection Board equipped a Cate1pillar D4 with a multi-prong ripper mounted in place ofthe bulldozer blade and worked hydraulically. This unit was used to demonstrate to farmers the effectiveness ofburrow destruction and was hired to fanners when available. The Bridgetown Roads Board (as the Shire Councils were then known) bought a single prong Ro to-ripper which was available for hire. This unit could be drawn by a small crawler tractor and used a mechanical trip mechanism activated by a rope pull to enable the prong to be rolled backwards to free it if it became lodged under a rock or root. I used this machine on several occasions, pulling it with our International TD9 with the bulldozer blade removed.

As the rabbits were at last in retreat on fmms where active control was being undertaken rabbit netting became popular as a means ofreducing re-infestation from adjoining forest areas or neighbours who were less diligent. Of course it must be remembered that there was an extreme shortage ofmost machine1y and materials with long waiting lists for everythingfi'om tractors to wire products. Frank was able to obtain some second hand rabbit netting which had been removed from part ofthe old Rabbit Prooffence in the eastern agricultural area. This netting, although probably 30-40 years old then, was ofvery high quality and even in 2001 is still, for the most part, in sound condition. Frank had decided on a policy of100% clearance ofrabbits ft-om each area ofthe farm as it was netted. This involved not only erecting rabbit netting, which was buried to prevent rabbits from burrowing under, but also erecting netting gates and maldng sure that they were kept securely closed at all times. Creeks and other natural features presented problems that were sometimes insunnountable with the result that rabbits were never completely cleared from the entireJann. In the finish it did not really matter as the combined onslaught reduced them to insignificant numbers but that was not fully achieved until the sixties and continuing control measures will probably always be required. Uefortunately, the very high cost ofrabbit netting has meant that little fencing ofthat type has been erected since about 1965. It made a very secure stockfence as well as giving protection against rabbits.

The first area to be netted on ourfmm was the "Shearing Shed" paddock along the Peninsular Road which was one ofthe two parts of "Applewood" kept by Frank when he and Joe split the partnerskip. Following the usualfumigation and burrow destruction the task ofhunting down the last rabbit was undertaken using the dog to locate any survivors. We would know oftheir existence by the tell tale ground scratching. Once located and started nmning they would be run down by the dog or shot, usually with a twelve bore or .410 shotgun. On some occasions we would actually run them down ourselves. Reasonably fit teenagers as we then were could soon tire a fleeing rabbit. I remember when Frankfinally announced the destruction ofthe last rabbit on this piece of land and his satisfaction with this accomplishment. This was probably in about 1950. This proved to be our greatest success as, apart from the occasional incursion, this piece ofland was kept rabbit free for the next twenty years or so. The next attempt was on the "Hundred Acres", also part ofthe old ''Applewood". The netting ofthis was completed after I left school in 1953. In fact I think it was the first majorjob I was involved in and included taldng down some very large trees on the fence line using the old time axe and crosscut saw (chainsaws were unknown then). We also used gelignite on some trees, boring into the centre with an auger, placing the charge and tamping it with clay. The ji1se was lit and we retired to a safe distance to watch the tree come tumbling down. Frank was a real expert in the use ofexplosives having used them a lot in the days before the war. A lot ofclearing was done with gelignite in the first halfof the twentieth centwy, mostly prior to the Second World War. There had also been some limited andfairly unsuccessful efforts to use explosives to destroy rabbit burrows. When the netting ofthe "Hundred Acres" was finally completed we set about eradicating the last ofthe rabbits. I think we probably succeeded on several occasions but it proved impossible to keep this paddock completely clear for long periods for several reasons. There was a small creek running across one comer and each time there was a reasonable flow ofwater the rabbit proofing would be damaged and rabbits would come in especially as there were several bad bracken patches along the fence line in the same area to give cover. The other reason was more surprising. The second hand netting that Frank used on his first fencing was heavy gauge with 1 ¼" mesh size. The "Hundred Acres" paddock was netted using a mixture oflocally made netting and some imported material, I thinkfi·om Poland, with 1 ½"mesh which was the nonnal size used by fanners. The wire itselfwas a lighter gauge than the old netting and in the case ofthe imported netting seemed slightly oversize. We soon found that small rabbits, large enough to survive, could actually sometimes slip through this netting and provide a continuous source ofre-infestation. We only realised this when we saw a rabbit, with a dog in hot pursuit escape through the fence. However, this was really more ofa nuisance than anything else.

Meanwhile on "Geegeelup" where, due to the topography including the railway line, it was unlikely we could ever provide fi1lly secure fencing the emphasis was on burrow destruction. Frank cleared the last of this property in about 1951 by hiring two International TD14 bulldozers from Les Woodhead who was the contractor for the clearing and earthworks for the new Bridgetown Trotting and Sports Ground which was then being built. While on the property Frank had them use a big ripper on the accessible burrows on the worst affected part ofthe property. This greatly reduced the infestation allowingfi1migation and poisoning to keep control until the next phase tookplace. Unfortunately, it also left some very big rough areas which were not really smoothed out until Frank bought his own small bulldozer, an International TD9. Several years later he and I bulldozed any reopened burrows and flattened the tom up areas by using the machine with the blade lowered and dragged backwards.

The next major development was the introduction ofMyxomatosis. I don 't remember just when th is programme began but when I left school at the end of1953 there had not been any real progress although spectacular results were being reported fi·om the eastern states. I remember going out at nights with our neighbour, Bob Doust on his new Ferguson tractor carrying a spotlight to dazzle the rabbits. With the aid oflarge mesh nets on broom handles we would capture and inoculate their eyes with the virus and release them, hoping they would develop the disease and infect the entire population. This continued over several summers without any noticeable result. Myxomatosis requires mosquitoes to spread the disease from the infected rabbits and it appeared that we didn't have the required type or numbers to do the job. I think we had nearly decided that myxo was not going to be much help and had given up the inoculation programme when what must have been a favourable summer suddenly lead to a major out break. Dead and dying rabbits were seen all over the district especially in the problem areas along creeks and swamps where the conditions were mostfavourable to mosquitoes. I think this was about 1955 or so. We were still finding infected rabbits and picking them up to place in areas with known rabbits for several years afterwards. In fact, I well remember taking Jen down to our Donnelly block halfway to Manjimup with a rabbit to release just before we were married in 1960. From then on whenever rabbit numbers built up a new epidemic would reduce numbers to negligible proportions. The virus has continued to provide valuable help to the present day although I understand some resistance has built up especially in parts ofthe eastern states where conventional methods ofcontrol were neglected. The more recently released rabbit calcivints does not seem to have been very effective in high rainfall areas such as Bridgetown. Perhaps like myxomatosis it will emerge after a delay.

The final key weapon in the control ofrabbits was also introduced in the mid-fifties. This was 1080 poison. Initially and for some years this product could only be placed by Agricultural Protection Board officers. This was because as well as being a ve,y dangerous poison with no antidote available then or now it was stated to be ve,y hard to detect at post-mortem. A pwple dye was added to it to assist in this respect but I think there were real concerns about its possible misuse. It was a big improvement on earlier poisons because it was tasteless and there were also several hours delay between ingestion and the convulsive death that followed. With the older poisons, some rabbits always seemed to reject the bait, probably because the taste andfast action ofshychinine, which was probably the best ofthem, scared rabbits away as they saw and heard other rabbits affected by it. With 1080 a well carried out poisoning was ve,y effective and the poison continues to be used to this day not only for the conti·ol ofrabbits but also foxes and dingoes. Indeed a side effect ofthe rabbit poisoning in the mid-fifties was a great reduction in the very large number offoxes that then infested the south-west with resultant recovery in numbers ofseveral native species that had been almost wiped out. As mentioned earlier a rabbit poisoned with 1080 remained lethal to foxes and dogs for a long time. One ofthe great advantages of 1080 is that very few ifany native species are affected by it. The reason for this was discovered some time after it came into use. The early settlers in many areas ofsouth-west WA found that a number ofthe most attractive and succulent pea flowered shrubs were deadly poison to their domestic animals. These plants ofthe gastrolobium and oxylobium families include the notorious York Road and Box poisons as well as Heart-leafpoison which is found in the Bridgetown area although not on or near any ofthe counhy we owned. It turns out that 1080, a synthetic poison, is almost identical to the active ingredient in these poison plants and as a result the native animals have built up a resistance to it. It is interesting to note that dingoes are not immune and this supports the belief that they are not really an indigenous species but were introduced by aborigines several thousand years ago.

Initially, 1080 was used in a similar way to the earlier poisons. Afitrrow was ploughed by thefmmer and free fed with oats for three nights. After a night without feeding the APB (Agricultural Protection Board) officer would come out with a Landrover and after mixing oats with poison taken from phials carried in a locked box, lay poison baits in thefitrrow. This was done by hand, with the operator wearing protective gloves andfeeding the baits from a bucket with the door ofthe Lan drover open or removed. On steep or rough country doing this as well as driving the vehicle was a fairly tricky job. After about a week we would pull cultivating discs over thefi,rrow to bury and disperse any remaining baited grain and return the stock to the paddock. Afew years later a less labour intensive method was developed called "one shot" poisoning. The APB officer would now carry out the whole operation by pulling a single disc behind the Landrover which simultaneously left a trail ofpoisoned oats. The critical difference was that only a small percentage ofgrains were treated with enough poison for a single grain to ldll a rabbit. This meant that it was unlikely that a rabbit would be poisoned on the first night so a similar effect to "free feeding" could be achieved without the amount ofw011, needed by previous methods which was considerable when large areas were being poisoned. After several more years it became possible for farmers to purchase the pre­ poisoned grain to lay for themselves.

The only other technical advance that took place during my time as afanner, which ended in 1971, was the introduction ofyet another fiimigant known as "Phostoxin ". This was in the form ofa tablet which when placed down a burrow and acted upon by moisture released phosgene gas. This gas, which had been used by the Germans in their notorious gas chambers, was deadly to rabbits and was easier and probably safer to use than the older chloropicrin. We also used it to control mice in our Nissen hut type chaffand grain storage shed. I think it was also used in grain silos for control ofweevils. It may be still in use.

That then is the story as I remember it of the war against rabbits and how it was finally won, at least temporarily. I don't think Australians will ever be able to completely ignore the possibility offi,rther plagues if basic control methods are neglected and resistance is developed to the diseases which have worked unseen to keep numbers down. It was a desperate fight which iflost would have consigned the country to a long period ofdepression with even greater environmental damage than we can already see.

Some ofthe methods used will seem cruel by today's standards but all wars are cruel and it was them or us.-DW)

Tape9 SideA Tuesday29th May, 2001.

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number nine in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing Home, Mount Lawley. Tape Nine is being recorded at Sandstrom on, May 29th 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott's grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

THE DEPRESSION AND FAMILY LIFE

JF: Frank today I thought we'd start by seeing what you can remember about the depression days in the thirties? To begin with it's the Wall Street crash that everybody says started the depression so I wonder if you remember hearing or seeing that reported at the time and whether you knew what was implied and what might follow from that?

Yes. I knew at the time, I had a pretty good idea. But I don't think I realised how bad it was going to become but it became pretty darned serious ... for me anyway.

And how did it become evident for you then and how soon?

I think pretty soon as far as I can remember. I just don't remember what started it just offhand ...yes I do I remember. Yes, it started in the farming. I think the farmers felt it before any body else. The whole guts fell out of the primary industry. There was no industry as far as I was concerned.

You felt it by prices going down did you?

Yes. Almost unsaleable a lot of our stuff.

Were you selling apples at that time or were you selling your wool?

I was selling apples, wool and cattle. None of it was worth anything to sell, you gave it away really.

Can you remember the actual prices when they dropped down and can you tell us what they were before and what they dropped to?

No, I don't remember because the peculiar thing about that depression was that it never affected the apple industry until after. We were getting quite reasonable prices for apples. It was after the depression was over that apples got hit. It was a peculiar thing that that should be but I don't understand why. (Bridgetown was hard hit in the late thirties, when not only did prices collapse, butfor two years in succession a large part of the apple crop was wiped out by severe hail storms. Bridgetown had never experienced large crop losses from hail before. Frank told me that when the first storm hit, no fmmers had insurance but the next year most did have some. After that premiums became so high few could afford to insure. During my time there were scattered st01ms which affected some orchards badly but not a district wipe-out that I can recall. Some areas seemed to be more prone to damage than others. There was one very severe autumn st01m around 1962. We were living in a rented house on the outsldrts oftown and my wife, who did not drive at the time, had taken our two children, a baby and a toddle,~ in the pusher to town to do some shopping. I saw the storm approaching and took the car in to pick them up. The storm broke just as I found them and we were unable to get back to the car as some four inches (100mm) ofrain fell in about twenty minutes. All the creeks were flooded and even when the rain stopped I think we had to wait until the water dropped. Fences were washed away and a lot ofdamage done. I was not involved in fruit growing at that time and don't remember how much the losses were but I think it was late in the season when most.fruit was probably picked. I don't remember much hail with that st01m but even the rain would have caused damage. Frank told a similar story about one ofthe earlier storms which destroyed the apple crops. His mother had been visiting his wife in the new house which lay on the other side ofthe valley on "Applewood" and saw the storm approaching. To get home she had to go down to the creek, near which were all the sheds and old stables and then cross the creek and climb the very steep hill to the house. She got as far as the sheds before the storm struck and decided to take shelter in one ofthe sheds. That shed had a haywaggon in it the tray ofwhich stood about a metre and halfoff the ground. The creekflooded so that his mother ended up having to climb onto the waggon to escape the water which flowed through the sheds. It was then some time before the water fell enough for her to escape. That creek was very short so rose andfell quickly but must have been several hundred metres wide at the height ofthe flood because the sheds were some distance fi·om it and quite a lot higher-D rV)

They were mainly an export item I suppose?

Yes all export then there was very little local market for apples.

So, in your case you were just beginning to open up a new property at that time weren't you?

Well we were sort of just taking the place over from my father. That's when we started to take over.

So you'd have had a bank loan I suppose to contend with. How was that affected?

Well you couldn't get any money very much. Banks were pretty damed tight with their money, they wouldn't hand out much money for development and that sort of thing.

What about other farmers nearby to you and around about, were they in the same boat?

Oh yes mostly. I think it was all right for fellows that were well developed. There were some people that did well out of the depression you know.

How was that?

Because they had the money. Well set up and had the funds. They could take advantage of the low prices offering. They jolly well did and did quite well.

Did they buy other people out and that sort of thing, is that what you're saying?

No not so much buy other people but they bought livestock and that sort of thing and could stock their places. That's the way they made their money.

They were getting it at rock bottom prices I suppose; the livestock that they bought?

Yes.

So they could do well out of it but for people that were developing it wasn't so easy. At that stage ... had you been married by then or not?

No. I wasn't married.

So you were still a single man so I suppose it wasn't quite such a worry for you as it might have been for somebody with a family? (The depression was by no means over when Frank married in December 1934 and, in fact, the worst was still to come for Bridgetown as we have seen.-D"W)

Yes. That would have been the case, I think somebody just starting off a family were pretty hard pressed.

Did you know people either side of you or round about that were in trouble that way?

Only a few. A few business people that I remember were in a bad way. They gave up their business some of them and that sort of thing. But Bridgetown wasn't as badly affected as a lot of other people. As I say for some reason the apple industry was quite reasonable ... quite reasonable prices ... until after the depression was practically over that it hit the apple industry.

And were you still able to employ people on the farm during that time?

Oh yes. That's where many of them did well there. I didn't do so well ...I did a bit ofit but you couldn't borrow anything much in the way of money, but people that were in a position to borrow... they had a lot of clearing done on the cheap because they would pay them five or six shillings, that's all they earned in those days of the depression. They'd work for anything they could get. (I think that figure offive or six shillings ($0.50-$0.60) was per week. Ofcourse money was worth a lot more then but wages were still very low-DW)

So are you saying then that perhaps in Bridgetown unemployment wasn't such a big problem?

No, I think that was so. Not as big a problem as ... there were problems, pretty serious problems for some individuals. The general trend wasn't as bad in Bridgetown as some other areas.

Are you aware of people who are noted for having been patiicularly kind to those who were finding it difficult? For example, I can remember a particular shopkeeper in Albany, which was my town, who years and years and years later was lauded as somebody who gave credit for example when credit wasn't available elsewhere. Would you have examples of that sort of thing?

Yes. Oh yes, I think so. They knew their marks and the people who, when they could pay, they would pay. Some would obviously just borrow what they could get and no intention of paying it back. Well they didn't get much help.

For obvious reasons. Who were some of these who were able to offer credit or were prepared to offer credit? Who were some of the business people who are noted for that in Bridgetown? Being kind to those who were out.

Yes. The people who owned the shop ... well we owned but they leased the shop, Lake; they were one and there was another crowd. I think the Hesters owned the shop. I'm not sure about that. From my memory they did and the people involved with that were Connell and Kirby. They operated in that way, were pretty good, they'd let loans run on, you know. The ones they trusted. There was a good deal of that sort of thing.

Did you and your family have to take a drop in the income from the shop and pub?

No. Not that I remember. No I don't think ... oh, wait a minute. Yes there was one publican who was in the pub we owned. I won't mention his name but he sort of sat back and took it easy and never bothered and the outcome of that was that he lost the lease of the pub. Someone else took it on and did alright with it.

That was in the era we are talking about? The depression era? Yes.

Now, was there any evidence around Bridgetown of people being looked after by soup kitchens or public community sort of support?

I don't think there was very much of that in Bridgetown, I don't remember much. Other places had quite a lot ofit butBridgetown ... they weren't wealthy by any manner of means but they managed to ... it was more stable than many of the other places I think.

Was there still quite a large component of timber workers and other people like that who would have been dependent on wages?

Oh, yes there was quite a lot of people like that in Bridgetown in those days. (Bridgetown was the main centre for the area in those days. Manjimup, which later became bigger was still quite small. Bridgetown had a large railway population as well as PMG and other government and private employees although the significance ofthe timber industry was in decline-DW)

I was thinking that was the sort of person that might have been hit most.

Yes I think they probably were but again not in Bridgetown particularly because they had ... the people that employed them certainly reduced wages, jolly well had to, but they kept them in employment. Even though it was a lower wage they didn't say, "You get out and look after yourself'. Most of them were still employed.

Was there any evidence that you know of people turning to their own gardening and so on to try and eke out a living?

Yes there was a bit of that, in a small way. I think everybody did to some extent.

Because it was more common generally then to have your own fowls and your own bit ofvegie garden and so on?

Oh yes. Goodness the farmers in a place like Bridgetown had their own meat and grew their own gardens and they milked their own cows. As far as food went, they lived quite well.

So they were able to weather the downturn in prices for that sort ofreason.

Yes. You lived pretty well except that you never had any money to waste or to spend.

Did you run a vehicle at that time during the depression?

Oh yes. Goodness gracious, we had long before the depression. My father owned T-model Fords. He was agent for the district. He sold a lot of T model Fords because it was the main car in those days.

So you didn't have trouble getting fuel or anything at that time?

No.

Now turning to some of the theories about the depression. There was a lot of argument about how the government should deal with it. I wonder whether you remember any of the arguments that took place, particularly when the expert from the Bank of England, Niemeyer, came and suggested they had to keep up their payments on their British loans. Do you remember any thing about that?

Not very much. I wasn't old enough to be concerned. I was too jolly busy working! Do you think you would have supported that attitude. That Australia should still keep paying its interest no matter what was happening here?

No, I think they could well have reduced some of their charges.

What about Jack Lang then. I suppose you remember him hitting the press?

I remember the name.

He was the New South Wales Premier you lmow and he was advocating, I think, reneging on some of the loan payments in order to afford social welfare payments. Would you have been a supporter of Lang do you think?

Well I would have, yes. Anything to relieve extra pressure or lowering of pressure on them could only have been to the good. It's only the greedy people... because some people, they did all right out of the depression. The tough ones wanted all they could get and demanded it. Those people did very well out of the depression. But they were not the general people. (I doubt very much whether Frank's family would have supported Lang at the time. He was regarded as a dangerous left wing revolutionary and his premiership was eventually terminated by the Governor ofNSW, Sir Philip Game in the only such instance before the dismissal ofthe Whitlam Government in 1975. Of course NSW was a long way from WA in those days and, as Frank says most people were too busy trying to survive to take a lot ofinterest in affairs that did not directly concern them. Frank's own interest in politics did not ignite until late in the thirties.-DW)

Some people were quite revolutionary in advocating that the Government spend its way out of the depression. What did you think about those ideas? (Keynesian theory, which called for governments to run deficits in times ofrecession developed out ofthe depression but was for a long time regarded with distaste by conservatives. Many people today believe that the thirties Depression was grea{ly exacerbated by the failure of Governments to respond appropriately following the Wall Street crash in 1929. That is why governments have responded vigourously to crises such as 1987 and now in 2008 with consequences not yet clear in the latter case.-DW)

Well I don't see how the Government could. Where are they going to get the money? Money didn't grow on trees and the Government couldn't get the money to do anything much in the way of handouts during that depression. Where were they going to get the money?

Now one of the big things that came in the wake of the depression for Western Australia was the idea of secession. What can you tell me about the secession movement?

You mean afterwards?

Well it was about 1933 I think. It came out as a sort of a result of disenchantment with the Federal government, I think, over the way they handled the depression.

Yes, I think it was nowhere near as serious as the true depression. In fact we didn't regard it as any thing very serious at all. People that were younger than we were by then, they demanded this, that and the other but the government has got to get the money before it can do anything for anybody else and where were they going to get it? It doesn't grow on trees. (I think Frank had misunderstood the question here.-DW)

So do you think that the idea ofbreaking away from Canberra was probably only a flash in the pan was it?

Oh, we'd have given anything to break away. Western Australia didn't like it. In fact my father and a lot ofpeople ... one of them was still in Parliament when I was there later and he always harked back to the Federal government. "Oh, they gave the Western Australian government a tough time." They really did too, I think. (The member who was still in Parliament in Frank's time was Harry Watson who was a member ofa delegation sent to London to petition the British Government to accede to the demands of WA and allow the state to secede in accordance with its citizens' wishes as expressed at a referendum. The British Government decided that it did not have the power to oven·ide the Australian Constitution and declined to intervene. The matter dragged on a bit but was dropped with the approach of WW II until revived by Lang Hancock and others in the sixties and seventies. Unlike the later time, the movement in the thirties attracted widespread support and the referendum was carried by a large majority. My parents did tell me that many people voted for it as a protest against perceived Federal neglect rather than from any real desire or expectation ofsecession actually occurring. There was a positive result as the Federal Government was jolted by the events and measures were taken to achieve a fairer distribution offederal funds including, I think, the setting up ofthe Commonwealth Grants Commission.-DW)

Do you remember the controversy, I think it was largely conducted in the "Sunday Times" but it might have been in the "West Australian" as well about the idea of seceding from the Commonwealth?

Yes there was. Western Australia was, I think quite in favour of seceding but I think really if you think about it wasn't really realistic. It wasn't a realistic idea because it wouldn't make sense to my way of thinking. A lot of people did ... I think my own father was keen on Western Australia going on their own but I personally didn't really see how it could work. You're part of the country ... and it would have been a never ending running sore. That's what I think it would have resulted in. Enmity between Western Australia and the rest of Australia and I really believe that if they went on with it could only result in worse times for Western Australia. Because Western Australia was pretty poor in the way of money.

Relatively undeveloped at the time.

Oh yes very much so. I don't think it would have worked. That's only my idea.

Was it the sort of idea that got talked about a lot in the pubs and around the place in Bridgetown?

Oh yes. There were a hell of a lot of people who hated the sight and sound of the Federal government but I don't think it was realistic. I still don't think so.

Of course that came up later on didn't it with Lang Hancock and his secession group in the sixties. Would you think it was a different story in the sixties.

No, I think they were misleading themselves. I still thought that. I might have been in a minority, I don't know, but know what I thought. It just didn't seem to make sense to me.

Overall then what do you think the depression did to you personally?

Made me think small. That's what it did to me, I think, because you couldn't think any other way at that time and of course it put any idea of marriage out for five or six years. Because you wouldn't have been game to marry anybody anyway ... you couldn't keep them.

So it delayed your marriage?

Oh yes, it did.

Yes it was certainly a period oflong engagements for some people wasn't it by today's standards.

Yes.

Did the churches in Bridgetown take much of a role in trying to help people who were in difficulty there do you know? No, I don't think that, quite frankly, the churches ever do take much of a role. That's just my personal point of view but I don't think they put themselves out very much. They look after themselves. That's just my own opinion.

Have you got examples of them looking after their own flock during the depression?

Oh yes, I have, I don't want to talk about them but I ran across quite a bit of that sort of thing.

What about itinerant workers? Did Bridgetown get many people coming in from outside. If it was a favoured region you might expect workers who couldn't make a living elsewhere would have come into Bridgetown.

Yes, there was a bit of that but they'd drift out again mostly. Some of them were stayers and they found something to do in the place but mostly they were drifters in and out and just wandering about. As a result the depression days wrecked them, I think. They never recovered from it.

There were people in some of the bigger towns who went door to door trying to sell things or sharpen knives and do that sort of thing, did you encounter any of that.

We didn't particularly. Where our place was situated they didn't but people on the main road. I remember the Hester family lived on the main road and I remember Mrs Hester telling me three fellows came in and begged for food. She said, "Well we haven't any meat at the moment but I'll cut you some bread and cheese sandwiches if that's all right." "Oh yes anything will do." Later on in the day she was down the road and she saw the sandwiches thrown away in the ditch. They were just after what they could get and if they didn't get what suited their taste; they took it and threw it away. There was quite a bit of that. Those useless sort of people ...

Well, I think we might leave that topic at this stage and thank you very much. Last time I spoke to you about your marriage and so on and you were telling me you honeymooned in Albany. Sooner or later the honeymoon had to be over so take the story up from there and tell me about afterwards, coming back and so on. You and your wife newly married. Where did you go, what did you do, how did you live as a young married couple.

I lived on the farm in a separate house. I'd built a house, a small house, where we lived for a few years and then we took over the property completely from my father. He didn't interfere with the running ofit and well the truth ofit was that I wasn't very keen on the person that my younger brother married so I offered to buy him out or sell out to him. He wouldn't do either. He said, "no, I'll divide the property with you." I said, "well it isn't sufficient to divide really, you know." So I made him an offer which meant he would have to pay me a bit of money and I'd only take a very small ... I think all I took of the property at that time was 100 acres. (Frank actually took 190 acres. JOO acres opposite "Geegeelup" and 90 acres at the entrance to "Applewood" on the Peninsular Road. This had the shearing shed and Frank's then home on it. It was a good piece ofland but a nuisance to run with the shearing shed cut offfi-om the main property. The house was dismantled and re-erected in King Street in Busse/ton a couple ofyears later where it was rented out. It was still standing in 2008. Frank also bought another Jann house in Bridgetown and took that to Busselton where there was room for both on the block. The second house served as a beach cottage for many years and was used by all ofus. That house has been demolished in recent years. By the time Frank and Joe took over, "Applewood" had grown to 700 acres, so Joe took over around 500 acres. Both parts ofthe property still had uncleared areas and were infested with rabbits and bracken which Frank attacked vigorously on his part. One ofFrank's criticisms ofdairying always was that you rose very early in the morning and then finished late at night. There was a great temptation to do not much in between. Perhaps due to this and general poor health Joe did not display quite as much activity and his part ofthe farm did not really prosper although he remained there until his death in 1960. Despite his severe stutter he was a very popular and well loved member of the Bridgetown community. When his son, Joby, decided to seek his fortune elsewhere (it took Jack and me a bit longer to wake up!) my brother Jack and I leased the property for a few years and so "Applewood" was run as one property again in conjunction with "Geegeelup" and another neighbouring property we had bought (a total ofabout 1500 acres) and we each lived at the old home for a few years. Jack spent a year there in 1970 and his was the last family to live in the old family home which my own family previously had lived in for about four years and the Willmotts since 1904. The old house was in fairly poor repair and still had a 32 volt lighting plant and no proper water supply, so living conditions were a bit primitive. Nevertheless we still regard those years as some of the happiest ofour married life. Our girls were small and our son was born there, the last Willmott to be born into the house which fell into complete disrepair over the next few years and was never occupied again before it was demolished. "Applewood" house stood high on the hill and enjoyed beautifitl views over the farm and beyond. In addition its high position meant it emerged from Bridgetown's notorious winter fogs much earlier in the day than the town. It was extraordinary to leave the fogbound town and then emerge like an aircraft sailing above the cloud. Today, Frank's "JOO acres" has been subdivided into smallfannlets and the rest of "Applewood" is planted to bluegums. The views are quite gone but I am not critical ofthis as it provides the present owner, who is another cousin ofours, a better living than fanning could and with much less effort. The views will emerge again when the time is right.-DW)

But I went and bought a property not far away. The "Hundred Acres" I'm talking about was just opposite the main road from an old property. The old "Geegeelup" property had belonged to the Dousts. The fellow I bought it from was related to the Dousts and he always, to my way of thinking, did the wrong thing with it. He ran milking cows on it and I never approved much of milking cows, there's no money in it. And this particular property was a bad place to handle cattle because you had to cross the railway line. The milking sheds and home were on one side of the railway and all the rest of the property was on the other side of the railway. You wouldn't know what it entails unless you actually did it for a while, for quite a few years, and it gets you into all sorts of trouble. Fire is one thing, you're in everlasting trouble with fires because the old steam locomotives, they're terrors to set fires. I used to be very careful making firebreaks all round and I'll never forget ... l'd done all my firebreaks and I had an old fellow working for me and I told him what to do to do. There was a little, only a little, under three feet width adjoining the end of an orchard and I told him to go and hoe that up to stop the fire.

Endof SideA

Well he didn't do it and I was going to Perth with the truck and I was carting two engines for the trotting track. I put it over the old President of the Trotting Association in Perth to sell me cheap two engines that they had had during the war which he agreed to do and I was bringing these two engines from Perth. I delivered them up to the trotting track and I stopped in town to get something and someone said "Oh your place is on fire." We were only a bit over a mile out. "God", I said. "I think I'd better go home and see about this fire." Well there was nothing to see about the fire, it was all over, the whole place was burnt out, lock stock and barrel. The only thing they had enough sense to do ... the people, the neighbours and that sort of thing was to get the sheep, I ran sheep in those days, over the other side of the line, through the railway underpass. Which they did. That's the only thing because they'd have been cornered and burnt if they hadn't had enough brains to do that. Thank God for experienced people, they knew what to do.

And that was largely because this break hadn't been properly cleared?

Just that little three foot, less than three foot. It just had to be raked and the weeds taken away and that wasn't done and the fire, you could see where it had sneaked through. It had a wind behind it and it went over in a matter of a quarter of an hour the whole place was burning.

What time of year was that?

It was late spring or ... the grass was dry. It had all dried off you know. So by that time did you have the new property as well so you had some other land to take your sheep to?

I sold a lot of the sheep but I had another property, undeveloped or not much developed about half way to Manjimup and I took the best ofmy sheep there and got them through. The rest I bad to sell.

Now we are talking about the late thitties are we when this was happening?

Good gracious me what did you ask me that for, I don't know!

(These events took place in about 1948 and I remember them quite well. Frank, as President ofthe Bridgetown Trotting Club, had been largery instrumental in having the new sports ground and trotting track built on the Boyup Road, at a site then known as Leaning Tree Hill. When completed it required lighting for night trotting and the Bridgetown power station was not able to provide electricity. Frank had become aware that two generating plants were unused at Gloucester Park in Perth. As he says, he negotiated to acquire them with the redoubtable J. P. Stratton who ruled WA trotting as a virtual dictator for many years. The plants were ofthe type used to provide powerfor army bases and similar temporary situations. They were powered by side valve Ford V8 petrol engines as used in the Ford cars and trucks of the time. One complication was that one was in better condition than the other having an almost new engine and a 250 volt AC alternator while the other had a 110 volt DC generator and an engine that needed oil added during the four or five hours running done in the course ofa trotting meeting. To overcome the problem each plant ran, separately, every second light on the track. This also had the advantage that the track would not be plunged into sudden darkness in the event ofa plant ceasing to produce power. Such an occurrence would have produced a very dangerous situation if it occurred during a race. Each plant also ran some ofthe other lighting around the course. During the time Frank was closely associated with the Trotting Club he ran the engines himself and I well remember the sudden run to the powerhouse ifthe lights started to fade as they did sometimes ifan engine started to play up. I don't remember any huge drama but they needed constant attention especially as the better plant ofthe two had no governor on the engine and was in danger ofracing to destn1ction ifthe load came off. I think it had an electrical cutout that was supposed to stop the engine but there was always some doubt about its reliability although I do remember it stopping the engine a few times when it shouldn't have. And ofcourse the second engine needed topping with oil to prevent serious damage. As a matter of interest the wiring for the track was done by George Klause. I was actually with Frank on the trip to Perth to pick up one ofthe engines when the fire occurred. They were too heavy to be carried by our four ton truck on one trip. The truck co-incidentally, was a lend-lease Ford with the same engine as the power plants. I remember getting home to the bumed out farm although the fire onry burned the bulk of Geegeelup leaving the parts of Applewood still owned by Frank untouched. My main memmy is of the hero of the moment which was Frank's little sheepdog, Lassie. She was quite old and not noted as beingparticularry bright. However, when the fire started and the neighbours arrived, she appeared and almost without direction rounded up the sheep and put them through the unde,pass, a task that could be difficult at the best of times. Old Sam, who hadfailed to hoe the firebreak, was not very popular and probably, as was his wont, te1minated his employment until things quietened down and he could return as he did on several occasions.-D'W)

I just thought that your development is starting in a time when still money might have been a little bit tight. You were saying that it was very tight during the depression, well when you took on the new property it would still have been a little bit difficult to get loans and so on.

No, I never had any trouble. It was quite easy to get money if you put up a good proposition. I was able to get money to start really developing then.

So the little piece, the hundred acres or so you kept from the original property. That was where your own little house that you'd built was on?

No, quite a differentpart... wait a minute. Yes, I kept, not one hundred acres, there was one hundred acre block but I bad a shearing shed which I had built round on another road and there was the part that I kept for the shearing shed, because I didn't want to go spending money for a new shearing shed and my brother didn't run sheep. He lilced dairying so be was milking; be was welcome to his dairy! There was ninety acres in this other property which was separate. I'd clean forgotten about that.

That's where the house was too, was it?

Yes.

Tell me about the building. Did you do it physically with your own hands or did you pay people to build?

A bit of both. There was a fellow who did a bit of building on our hotel which I was in charge of, my father was always away then and so ... that was fully developed that ninety acres. (Frank has wandered offa bit here. The ninety acre block actually had about fifteen acres that was not fitlly cleared but Frank completed it almost as soon as he took it over and this area became the first pa,1 of the farm to be completely rabbitfree.-DW)

So you got this builder to help you?

Yes, I'd built that before.

What sort of construction was it?

Oh, timber construction, iron roof.

I'm a bit confused about where you lived when but did that house become your family home? (It was his family home for almost exactly eleven years until we moved to "Geegeelup" early in 1946. All his children were born while living there-DW)

No. I bought the place with the old house on it, the old "Geegeelup" property on the main road. I only had the other ninety acres because of the shearing shed. That was the only reason I kept it really.

So you had a different house then to bring up the family in? Not the one you sta1ted off with?

No. I lived there for, ohl don'tknow ...I think my two sons were born my daughter wasn't. She was born after we were living in the other place. (This is not correct. Elizabeth was born at "Applewood" and we moved when she was nearly a year old. Frank, no doubt remembers her as a baby at "Geegeelup" and when I reminded him after the interview he realised he had made a mistake. He lived at "Applewood" in the second house for some eleven years after his marriage on 12 th December 1934.-DW)

Just before we get ahead of ourselves, while you were still without children and you and your wife lived there-what sort ofa life did you enjoy together? Can you tell me some of the things you did around the place?

Worked!

Did you go dancing?

Oh, yes. My wife was very fond of dancing and I quite liked to attend dances too. They were one of the few entertainments we did go to. We seldom bothered with picture shows. There was a picture every week. We didn't fit in with them much. Not that we wouldn't have liked to fit in if we'd had plenty of money to spend, I suppose. We didn't have much money to spend!

What about local live shows? I've been told there's a little theatre building in Bridgetown built probably in the 1880's. Did they offer live entertainment there much? I think the building you are referring to became the first Church of England. It was only for a short period and then they built a new brick place... this was only just a wooden building, the former one. (I am not sure about this as I think the building that JF is referring to may be the one near the old police station which served as the Repertory theatre for many years. I am not sure ofits original pu,pose but it must be among the ve,y early buildings and was constructed ofred bricks. The "new" Church ofEngland was built ofstone and still stands on the main road towards the riverfrom the centre oftown. I !mow it is stone because I helped cart some ofthe stone for an extension in, I think, the early sixties !-DW)

Do you remember live shows at all in Bridgetown.

Only of your own making. Local shows. You'd occasionally get a visiting show that would come but they were pretty infrequent. (The Bridgetown Repert01y Club was a very active local institution in the forties and beyond and regular shows were staged by then. That was ten years after the period referred to and owed a lot to several real enthusiasts including the local doct01~ Noel Williams and his wife, Dorothy.-DW)

When you were young and without children did you move around much, did you travel to Perth much or other parts of the State.

No, not much. For two reasons. The roads were something bloody awful. It was the time of corrugation of the old dirt roads and you had to get your car up to forty miles an hour before you could even hold it on the road. The corrugations were deep! It was funny how they formed. Because I remember seeing the tracks one day when they showed quite clearly where the wheels would sort of spin. Partly spin and toss a bit of dirt and in no time it had corrugations that deep. You couldn't drive over it unless you could get up to forty. Anything under that it would jar your teeth out.

And the maintenance of those roads, I suppose wasn't very frequent? The Roads Board would have looked after that I suppose?

Yes. In the earlier days But it was not many years before the Main Roads Department took the main roads. The Board didn't interfere with them. (The main roadfrom Perth was one lane bitumen as far as Bridgetown paved, I think,just before WWII All the links to Manjimup, Boyip Brook, Nannip and Busse/ton were appalling gravel roads when I first remember them in the forties and until thef,fties when a huge road building programme got under way. Many ofthe local roads were little more than tracks. Following the years ofdepression and war much maintenance had been neglected and every bridge and culvert (which were all timber before concrete pipes) had loose timbers and rattled eve1y time a vehicle went over. Apartfrom a bridge over the Geegeehp brook, near our home, which signalled the approach ofevery car, the two most "vocal" bridges I remember were the Causeway in Perth and Eric Street bridge over the railway line in Cottesloe. They both carried quite a lot oftraffic by the earlyf,fties and the rattling could be heard for miles! Especially at night.-DW)

You said one reason you didn't travel was the roads. What was the other?

Because it cost money to travel too! It was hell on your cars, absolute hell on the cars.

So with your wife and yourself then, you ended up in a bigger house than that very first one?

Yes. It was very old house, a very old place, one of the oldest properties in Bridgetown. In fact I think it was ... in fact the only (older) ones would be Blechynden's on the river and Hester's. They were the first two families in Bridgetown. Apart from them.

And you had a Blechynden house did you say?

Yes, a big family, ten of them or more were in that house. It was quite a big house. {Frank must have misheard this question because "Geegeelup" was a Doust home originally as he said elsewhere in this interview. Frank has actually rather confused the sequence ofevents surrounding the sale ofpart of "Applewood" to his younger brother Joe and his purchase of "Geegeelup ". As I remember many ofthese events myselfI will clarify what actually occurred. Frank and Joe took over "Applewood" from theirfather in the early thirties before I can remember. They then held all of "Applewood" (about 700 acres) as well as the property known as "The Donnelly" situated midway between Manjimup and Bridgetown. This block ofone thousand acres, which was then almost completely undeveloped, had been taken up by theirfather around 1910 orso. In around 1936 or 1937, when Joe got married, they bought a property at Mayanup !mown as "Springhills" and Joe lived therefor a year or so. This was a beautiful property butfor several reasons including the approach of WW II and the fact that Edith, Joe's wife, did not like living so far out oftown and it was not practical/or Frank to live there, they sold it again in about 193 9. One ofmy earliest memories, and my only memory of "Springhills", is being violently carsick on the rough and dusty gravel road going out there at the age ofabout two and a half. Joe moved into the old "Applewood" home while their parents retired to Busse/ton where their father was living when he died in 1941. Their mother died in 1946. The situation at "Applewood" deteriorated badly. The depression, war and hailstorms had taken heavy toll offamily finances and the rabbit plague was at its height during the war. There was also tension between the families which was not surprising in the difficult circumstances of the time. Also, Frank had been persuaded to turn thefann over to dairying as the main activity. Joe liked dairying but Frank hated it and so by the end ofthe war relations were becoming ve,y strained indeed. However, in 1945, Frank and Joe's aunt, Lady Henrietta Lewis (aunt Ettie) died in England leaving a considerable fortune. Frank and Joe each received around £5000/rom her estate and when the money arrived around the end of the war they were able to use it to resolve the growing problems. As Joe did not want to buy Frank out the division of "Applewood" was undertaken as related by Frank and he bought "Geegeelup" in late 1945 and we moved there in early 1946. The house we had lived in at "Applewood" was later taken to Busse/ton and placed on a block that Frank bought in King Street. It was let for some years and then sold when Frank bought 72 Mountjoy Road in Nedlands in around 1968. It stood alongside the cottage we used to spend our Christmas holidays in which was also an old Bridgetown farmhouse. Both buildings are still standing in 2001 but the original family home at ''Applewood" has been gone for some years now. The interview tends to give the impression that these events all happened towards the end ofthe depression but ofcourse they were actually spread over a longer period and the legacy which Frank does not mention played a critical part in them.-DW)

So that would have been built well before the tum of the century would it that house?

Oh yes, I can remember it when I was a kid and it was an old house then and when was I born 1904 so by the time I was seven or eight... it was quite near us and we were very friendly with the Dousts the family that owned it so that I can remember it from my earliest memories.

Was it a good place to bring up a family?

Yes, quite a good place. I think it was room, plenty of it, you know, and it was right on the main road. School buses went right past the door and that sort of thing. It was convenient in that way and it was only a little over a mile, only a matter of three or four hundred yards over a mile from the town.

So were you on a water scheme or did you have to supply your own water.

No, we were on the water scheme because it ran right past the door. They wouldn't carry it out except the hundred acres I spoke of before on the opposite side of the road. That had water laid on. I don't quite know... my brother worked for the water supply people at one stage and he kidded them to put the water on that block so that had water there. As we developed that particular place and cleared it developed its own water and had separate water but we always left it there.

What was the water supply? Where was it coming from in those days? From a dam, the Bridgetown dam. It was built originally for the railways, to supply the railway locomotives. They used to pump it up from the river before that and it became a bit salty, the Blackwood, so they decided to build a railway dam and of course once that was built there was continual agitation for it to be laid on to the town and it wasn't very long before it was laid on.

So it was a catchment water supply?

Yes.

So you had that on your property. You used it for domestic use mainly I suppose. What about the stock and so on, did you use the scheme water for that?

Oh no, that wasn't used for stock. Only with the one trough that I talked about in that one paddock. That was put on some years after the dam was finished.

So what did you do, did you have dams or something to supplement that for your stock?

No, we had quite a good creek running through our place and another developed after we had done more clearing so we had two adequate water supplies in the early days.

How did you pump from that?

We didn't pump. Not until the need came for it, then I sunk a well and put a windmill in. That's when there was more clearing done and all the stock couldn't be watered from the creek. It would have been overcrowded.

And did you have power there? At that new family house.

I had thirty-two volt in the big house that I bought afterwards, but it wasn't very long before they put the power on running right past my door. ("Applewood" must have been one ofthefirstfanns in WA to have electricity when Frank's father installed a Delco 32 volt plant in about 1921. That plant ran reliably for many years and when Frank built his own house they lived for several years using kerosene lamps. I can just remember the lighting plant being installed to supply 32 volt lighting to that house utilising the engine in the shearing shed which stood about a hundred yards from the house. When that engine was moved to the dairy at the bottom ofthe hill the generator was also moved and the batteries were charged while the milking was done. The engine was a large Lister kerosene engine and I can remember it being manually rolled down the hill on its two large flywheels to the daily. By the time we moved to "Geegeelup" the new 32 volt plant had been installed as part ofthe upgrading and alterations Frank undertook, some ofwhich were completed after we moved in. I remember the men doing the building work and that most ofthem had just returned from service in the Almy during the war. Aged about ten, I listened in awe to some oftheir accounts oftheir experiences, usually the humourous and ribald as is the way with such men who have experienced the horror ofwar.­ DW)

So you had 240 volt then, I suppose, did you? Was that 240 in those days?

I had 32 (volt).

Yes, but did they have a 32 standard... ?

No. I get what you mean now. It was run privately in the earlier days but that was pretty unsatisfactory. The fellow that had the concession wouldn't do anything. It was very poor lighting.

Was it DC or AC?

DC. Because quite a few country towns that I know of had DC.

It got to the stage where you only got a bit of a glimmer out of the light.

You were on the end of the line I suppose. (During much ofthis part ofthe discussion both Frank and John misunderstood each other. Frank did not get mains power at "Geegeelup" until around the mid.fifties. By then the old town electricity supply system had been taken over by the State Electricity Commission and there were power lines being installed throughout the district. "Geegeelup" was put on a single phase transformer together with several neighbours and supplied from a 22,000 volt transmission line that ran through the farm. So we were not really on the town system. The old town system was 110 volt DC and when it was taken over the lines were partially upgraded to cany the much more dangerous 240 volt AC. Unfortunately, the use ofold lines led to a terrible tragedy several years later. A group ofchildren were playing in a piece ofswampy ground on the east side ofthe town at the end ofForrest Street. A power line had come down across an oldfence and the whole area became electrified. The children blundered into this and became trapped. A nearby resident, Jack Houston, heard them screaming and went to their aid only to become trapped too. Frantic phone calls to the SEC had no result, partly because it was a Sunday, so another neighbour, in desperation, used a 12 gauge shotgun to blow out thepolefi1ses. At the end several children, I thinkfour including two from one family, had lost their lives as well as Jack Houston who, I think, was given a posthumous award for bravery. We were not directly involved in this terrible event but it cast a pall over the town which lasted for many years as the families were well known and respected. Most poignant ofall was the part played by John Lockley, who for years had been a volunteer ambulance driver. His own son was one ofthe victims and he tried desperately to resuscitate him long after all hope was gone. -D W)

For instance they had trotting going. Once they started night trotting it was quite inadequate. That's why when we built a new trotting ground I bought the two plants from the Trotting Association to supply our own. (The old system had not been replaced when Frank headed the move to the new trotting ground around 1948-DW)

So now you were keen on trotting in those days? You went to the trots regularly did you?

Oh yes. I had a couple of trotters.

Tell me about them.

Not much to tell about them. I only trotted when they had it on the Showground and it was only a quarter mile track, no straight just a quarter mile circular track. That's where I ran my trotters. By the time I was involved in building the new track in a new spot, a half mile track. I was out of running horses then. I still was President like a damn fool and did a lot of work for them but I'd given the trotting away.

Did you meet many people from elsewhere who were involved in trotting? People like the families from Pinjarra and so on who were big on trotting?

Yes, Harvey, that was the main one then Bunbury came in and Pinjarra but Pinjarra was a bit too far away. We didn't take the trotters there unless it was some big event.

Did you train the trotters yourself that you ran?

Yes.

And you drove them?

No. You had a driver?

Yes, I was a bit heavy in those days and it was a heavy weight to pull around on a spider. It shows up on a circular track. Where they get good straights they don't get blown out as easy.

So is there a story attached to your trotters? Did they do any good for you in winning?

Yes, I won a few races but it took me a while. A very fast horse at leaving the mark. He'd be gone fifty, sixty yards before the others had moved and he won his races out ofthat but later I found out what was the matter with him. He'd stop, for no apparent reason he'd stop. I couldn't make out what the blazes ... he'd absolutely stop dead sometimes. You'd lay the whip on him and he wouldn't move. Then I studied him, I fooled about with him and I found at last he had something wrong in his stomach. It must have been a twisted bowel or something like that. Because when I woke up to it I'd notice him and I'd go and touch him the minute he stopped. Oooow, he'd wince away from me. Next time he'd go out he'd be quite all right, race away like blazes and then quite suddenly this thing would grab him. I seriously considered an operation on the horse to correct it but I thought about it. I thought, no, if he was a bit younger, three or four years old I'd have done it but by that time he was eight or nine, I suppose, so he wouldn't have had a great useful life as a racehorse.

So that's your trotting interests. Did your wife share that interest in going to the trots?

No. I was out ofit by the time I was married. My sister and my mother used to go. My father went the first time I raced this horse after I'd bought him. My father said "I don't know what you're backing that horse for, look at him." Because I never used to run him on a preliminary run, always used to start him from cold, just walk him around off the course because I was awake up to this business he gets by then and my father rousted on my sister and my mother. He was pacer you see and he couldn't see any sense until he won the first race I ran him in. He walked it in on a pretty good handicap because the fellow who had owned him before didn't know any thing about him. I fed him and trained him myself and looked after him and he won quite a few races in the early days because he was on a good handicap but gradually that got reduced and that's when I woke up to this stomach trouble. (Frank regained his interest in trotting after the war and his term as president ofthe Bridgetown Trotting Club was in the late forties and early fifties. Mum used loyally to accompany him to the trots even though I don't think she greatly enjoyed them. Of course Frank was honing his political skills by then and the numerous quite heated disputes about the new trotting ground and other controversies were grist to his mill. We would often get chapter and verse the shortcomings ofhis opponents over the dinner table! He did have a briefinterest in a trotter in those later years when, after a rather long drinldng session with his bosom pal Fred Lee Steere, who was the local Goldsborough 's manager, he found they had purchased a trotter between them. "Bold Childe" did not excel and I think Frank disposed ofhis share fairly quickly. When he retired as president he was made a Life Member ofthe club in recognition ofhis efforts in getting them the much improved facilities at the new location against strong opposition especially from the Agricultural Society whose ground had been used previously. He did not take a great interest after that although he continued to donate a trophy each year, which on at least one occasion I presented on his behalf Jack and I, ofcourse, spent quite a lot oftime at trotting meetings while he was involved and learnt to place our bets with the best of them. Probably we should both have become dedicated punters and followers ofhorses but thatwasn 't the case and it remained for our brother-in-law to make a name for himself in that field. On one occasion he was asked who hadfostered his interest in racing and he stated it was Frank. I think he said it as a joke because Frank had lost any real interest he had long before Laurie came on the scene. However, many subsequent stories about Laurie repeated that his father-in-law, "a great racing man" had introduced him to the sport. Frank never had any interest in gallopers and only a passing one in trotters and a simple enquiry would soon have revealed this but reporters are not known for diligence in checldng their/acts and the myth remains. I don't remember his earlier involvement, which I think was in the early thirties but! did learn to ride on one ofhis old trotters called "Lustre". Old "Lustre" was very quiet and by the time I rode him was blind in one eye. Quiet as he was, one day while I was riding him Frank had to shoot a sick cow and at the sound ofthe shot the years dropped away and "Lustre" was off. I didn 'tfall offbut clung on for dear life until he ran out ofsteam.-DW)

Well, going on then talking about your early life as a family tell me about your children.

There's one of them there! (Helen and I were video taping this particular session-DW). I just had the two boys and one girl.

And for the sake of the tape and people who can't see you can you say who they were, what were their names and so on?

That's Del sitting there. The other boy is Jack. My daughter comes in to see me quite often. She lives in Perth now. She's Elizabeth.

How did you feel about the business ofbeing a father? Were you pleased to be a father?

Oh, my word. Because I was pretty old when they were born. I wasn't married until I was well on in my thirties ... about thirty four or five I suppose. (Actually he was married on December 12th 1934 maldng him thirty.-DW).

So what's your philosophy about fatherhood; what makes a good father?

I think the way to make a good father is the mother. The mother makes the kids, no doubt about that.

So what did you see in your role? What responsibility did you have then? It's mainly the mother's job, you think, but what's the father's responsibility?

Depends on the father. I had two brothers, one of them perfectly useless. He was the one that had all the education, he was brought up and educated in England for nine years. When he got back he went mad. Spent most of his time drinking. Lived on whisky. The other brother, my younger brother was a bit delicate. He couldn't do a lot of hard work. That's why he milked cows. If you run sheep, if you run a lot of sheep you do a fair bit of riding and my brother, although he rode alright, he couldn't do long rides. Although,l've ridden with him to Busselton two or three times, you know, from Bridgetown. That would be sixty odd miles.

So are you saying that a father can't really do much about his kids? He's just got to take them as they . come?

Yes, the mother, I'm quite sure, makes the family and if you're lucky and get a good mother who looks after the family, the kids are good. But if left to the father ... the truth ofit is you haven't got time. Take them out with you on the truck and let them ride around with you on the truck and that sort of thing but that's not teaching them to behave themselves. Hearing other men cursing and swearing, it doesn't take them long to join the mob.

So you reckon you might have taught them some of the wrong things?

Oh, I'm quite sure ofit. Not bad but...

Were you called upon ever to be the disciplinarian?

With the kids? Oh yes, unlike my own father, he never disciplined us. I think he realised he was too bad tempered. He'd lose his temper and give us a hell of a thrashing I think, so my mother kept the cane. And she used it!

With your own kids then? I can't ever remember their mother ever... I only ever gave them a couple ofbeltings that I can remember.

So you think corporal punishment is quite a good thing in bringing up kids?

Oh, there are some boys who certainly need it. This business of never disciplining them, I think, is nonsense. That's exactly what my older brother got away with because he only had a grandmother and an unmarried aunt. She finally did get married and the boy was still there but I don't think his aunt's husband was particularly given to looking after kids. He was much older of course. He had been married before and I think, I never heard mention of it, but I think by the time the boy needed to be disciplined he wasn't getting caught in that one.

End ofSideB Tape 10 Side A Tuesday 4th June, 2001.

As well as being taped this interview was also videoed.

Introduction: John Ferrell This is tape number ten in a series of interviews with Mr Francis Drake Willmott formerly a farmer of Bridgetown later member of the Legislative Council of WA and now in retirement at Sandstrom Nursing Home, Mount Lawley. Tape Ten is being recorded at Sandstrom on, June 4 th, 2001. The project is commissioned by Mr Willmott's grand-daughter Mrs Helen Clapin of 116 Heytsbury Road Subiaco and interviews are conducted by John Ferrell of34 Mount Street Claremont. Copyright to the material in these tapes is shared equally among the three persons named. Permission must be obtained from all three for use of any part of the series in public performance, in broadcasting or in publication.

TRIBAL ABORIGINES, WORLD WAR TWO & PARLIAMENT

Frank, I understand you had something to do with tribal aborigines around Bridgetown in your very early life. Can you tell me about that?

Yes. It certainly was very early. I don't think I would have been more than ... the oldest I would have been would be about six years old I suppose so they're pretty old memories you know. There were not a great many in the district then but they'd followed my mother's family right through. She was brought up at "The Warren" as you know and they used to travel ... the natives. They always used to follow the family so that they always turned up. She'd moved to Bridgetown then but about once a year the tribe would turn up. There weren't very many that I can remember. I was just trying to remember the names of them. There was "Comical" Jack, Charlie ... oh, their names are gone. No, I remember another name but I can't grasp it. But the only women I can remember, I've forgotten their names completely for some reason.

So, roughly what number of people would arrive?

Oh, by that time there was only about half a dozen, somewhere about that. They'd always turn up but it gradually got down until the only one left was "Comical" Jack. My father had a Ford T motor car by then and I remember him putting "ComicaP' Jack in the back seat of this car and taking him for a drive. The old fellow was a bit "not quite all there" and I thought he was going to go mad, shouting and yelling and dancing about in the back seat. It was really a comical outfit, he was 'comical' alright that day.

And can you remember... you know there's a lot of talk about the hygiene bar between whites and aborigines? Were they clean people, what were they like to be with?

In their own way, in their own methods, they were quite clean. It would not always be considered the cleanest of things for us. They had their own methods and they were quite logical.

And did they actually come in and have a meal or something at home?

No. They never entered the house. My mother used to tell a funny story about her father. He was having a bit of a tiff with his wife and an old blackfellow that he'd known all his life marched into the drawing room or sitting room, "now look here Edward. You no be sulky fellow with Capel. Not good. Not good. You no be sulky fellow". It broke him up. He burst out laughing.

So ever since then they didn't have natives in the house? Oh yes, oh yes if they had good reason to come in. That was at "The Warren". They'd changed a bit by the time they visited my mother at "Applewood" in Bridgetown. I think partly too because my father, an Englishman, freshly out from England, he didn't take to them. Never understood them I think. The only one he ever had any thing to do with was "Comical" Jack.

Of course your mother would have grown up with them I suppose?

Oh yes. Oh yes. She used to tell us a funny story about her older sister. They had an argument with some of the native girls, a bit of a tiff, I don't know what it was about. They said, "we won't give you any more food now, we won't give you any more food". They went and got some bread and chewed it up and spat it out. The little black kids picked it up and ate it!

So, to what extent would those people have been living tribally and living off the land? To what extent would that have been their way oflife?

Oh, when they were at "The Warren", very much their own people. They had their own methods. Lived on the nuts of the Zamia palm which are poisonous. You can't eat them, you'd die but they had a method. They used to bury them at a certain time and they'd come back and eat them. They knew exactly what to do.

The Zamia palm. What else did they eat?

Kangaroos, possums any damed thing that lived, they'd eat it.

And of course this moving around the country would have been part of their traditional life anyway wouldn't it?

Oh yes, oh yes, part of it. They had their own area. They wouldn't intrude on the next tribe's area. There'd be a real ding-dong fight if they did.

Do you happen to know what that particular group called themselves? Do you know what their tribal name was?

No. Ifl ever did it is completely gone from me.

So it was largely older people of the tribe still living that way was it that used to come around to Bridgetown?

Yes. I don't remember ... it's funny I have no memory of any children. There couldn't have been any children with them. Whether they'd gone off somewhere else ... hey might leave pretty early in life I think ... the family.

Of course I suppose the ones who had actually known your mother as a child would have been her age at least? The ones that she related to.

Yes. At least that.

I suppose they'd come visiting because they were friends rather than bring the whole family? (Frank told me once that they used to refer to their visits to Applewood as "coming to see their sister"-DW)

Yes. Yes, my mother was the second in a family of ten so she was relatively old.

So did she feed them or that sort of thing when they turned up?

Yes. Oh yes. She'd put a big stew or something on. They'd wait around and they'd bog into it. And when did this stop happening? Can you remember roughly when the last time that would have happened?

The last time was "ComicaP' Jack. He was the last one that I remember. There were only half a dozen of them.

I suppose if it was in the days of the T model. .. would it have been after the First War or after the First War?

Before the first war. Yes, by the time the war came I don't remember them.

Ok, well that was a very interesting little interlude. If there is nothing more that you want to tell me about them we'll go on to the next section.

I don't know very much about them. I knew later families that lived around the place but they were not aboriginals. Not...

Not the traditional tribal people?

No. They were educated in State schools, that sort of thing.

This lot that used to come visiting, were they carrying their spears and equipment and things of that sort?

Yes.

And dress? What were they dressed in?

Whatever they could lay their hands on!

What it would be western clothing would it?

Yes. One fellow I remember, a tall aboriginal, he seemed to be one of the bosses. He was always dressed in white. Charlie, that was his name, Charlie. Yes, I can see him now.

And what were the women carrying in their hands?

Everything but spears. They were the carriers, the women. The men always led the party with their spears ... defence. They were still doing it you know, it was their tradition. The women followed behind carrying everything else. The fighting men carried their spears and clubs.

Did the women have anything western with them that they were carrying or was it all aboriginal gear?

I don't remember much in the way of western gear. Tribal gear.

So you'd have seen their wooden bowls or something would you?

Yes, they used to ... They were pretty clever the way they used what they had. The bottoms of blackboys. Do you know what a blackboy bottom looks like? You hollow it out; it makes quite a good bowl. They made very good bowls.

Yes and I suppose they'd have had stone tips on their spears? Sharpened stones?

Yes, until they discovered that the whites had something better. They had glass. That's what they used afterwards. I can see them now making pointed stones. Chipping, chipping, chipping.

So you saw them doing some chipping? Yes. Oh yes.

Was there a stone quarry somewhere near? Was there an aboriginal stone quarry somewhere nearby?

No, I don't remember. I think they'd just pick up any likely looking stone and carry it with them and work on it.

Yes. I suppose you'd always have to have a new supply of those things at hand wouldn't you if you were depending on them for your food?

That's right. They always seemed to have something that they were working on.

And how were their stones attached to their spears? Did you see that?

I think they used the gum of the Red Gum tree in some way. I'm not quite clear, but I've seen them doing it but I was only a little bloke then.

And that would be using it while it was still sappy out of the tree would it? While it was soft. Or did they process it with fire or something?

No, I think they worked on it when it was soft and hardened it by fire.

So that's certainly a great contrast to the warrior. .. The warrior of the aboriginal tribal era is a great contrast to the warrior of the Second World War.

Oh,yes.

We'll take a jump now and talk a little bit about the Second World War if you're happy and the difference . that made to life in W estem Australia particularly in Bridgetown. So in general, what would you say about the effects of World War II on Bridgetown.

Disastrous. That's the way I'd describe it. You see we were dependent on apples in the early days of Bridgetown. Apples were exported to England and one variety in particular was exported to Germany so of course all that export trade all disappeared. It was the beginning of the end of the export trade really. We exported a bit after the war but not for very long before it died.

So were the army not buying up your apples for use with troops and so on?

I don't remember that they were to any extent.

I think it's true to say isn't it that as a wool grower you did quite well out of the war because the army needed wool for their uniforms and so on.

Oh yes. It boosted the wool prices very much indeed. But you're talking about the Second War? (I thinkfrom this remark that Frank was thinking of WWI in his earlier comments although the export trade to England continued until the UK joined the European Common Market. However, combined with two successive serious hailstonns, depression and the interruptions to trade in both wars and the declining importance ofthe Bridgetown orchards as Donnybrook and Manjimup, grew it is probably true that Bridgetown never again achieved the same prosperity it had enjoyed for a few years prior to WWI.-D1¥)

Yes, I'm talking about the Second War.

That wasn't so much because th~ wool was wanted at a different place, Particularly by Australians. They didn't need too much in the way of heavy wool. One particular fellow. His name was Johnson. A big family, the oldest one went away to the war and he gradually threw all his woolly clothes away. When winter came he was running around in nothing but a bloody sack with holes cut out for his arms-freezing! He must have longed for his clothes back again. It got very cold when winter came. (I think this may have been a WW I tale fi·om a veteran ofthe 10th Light Horse in the Syria and Palestine campaigns. There were a number of10 th Light Horse veterans in Bridgetown.-DW)

Now in the time of the Second World War with this manpower act that came in farmers generally speaking were encouraged to stay on the farms weren't they.

Yes. You weren't allowed to go to the war. Most farmers were told to stop on their farms and I had a younger brother and he managed to get into the army because he had an older brother. Talked his way into it somehow. But it didn't last, because he couldn't stand it. He'd had rheumatic fever and he was a fairly delicate sort of a fellow. Like most people who have had a bad bout of rheumatic fever are. So they emptied him out. I thought, alright I'll go now. "Oh no." They said, "you're not going any where. You're going back on the farm. You're a farmer. We need what you produce, you go back farming". I argued with them but the more I argued the tougher they got!

You were virtually the property of the Government for a while there weren't you?

Virtually, yes.

So did your farming practice change much during the war? The things that you were doing on the farm. Or did it just go on more or less the same?

Oh, more or less the same except that the export disappeared. (I think there was a type ofcompensation scheme for farmers whose products could not be exported due to the war and that some assistance was given to orchardists by way ofwhat was called "appraisement". Government appointed Appraisement Officers would come out and assess the crop and this would then form the basis for compensation when the crop had to be allowed to drop on the ground. In Bridgetown and also Donnybrook large dehydration plants were built during the war which processed at least some of the fruit for export to Britain as dried fruit which did not require refrigeration and could be carried by any shipping available. I think these plants were at least partly financed by the British Government. Another industry which was set up in the Bridgetown and Boyup districts was the growing offlax which was processed into fibre at the Boyup Flax Mill. This was required for the production ofcanvas for tents and other items for war use. That industry lingered for some years after the war but eventually closed in the early fifties. The dehydration plants also closed soon after the war. Flax was only produced in the eastern part ofthe Bridgetown district in the Winnijup area so Frank's farm was not involved.-DW)

So what about things like getting people to do shearing and that sort of thing? Did you have trouble with getting enough labour?

Yes. Oh yes. It was a very much a catch as catch can business getting shearers. But we managed.

Did you do any of it your self, the shearing.

No. Not very much. Very little. I was not a shearer. A shearer has got to have a shearer's back. Mostly if a man was a professional shearer he wouldn't do any other work. Wouldn't take another job when he wasn't shearing. It would affect the muscles that he used in his back. Because he used a different set of muscles to go digging or something like that so they wouldn't do it.

So you managed to get shearers one way or another?

Yes. I was lucky, I had a friend who was a shearer, a professional shearer and he got with another fellow and they did my shearing with just the two of them. (I think Frank is actually talldng here about the years immediately after the war when labour was still very hard to come by. As far as I can remember we ran very few ifany sheep during the war. The farm had been turned over to dailying and the shearing shed was used to store superphosphate, when available, and a feed grinder was set up to grind oatsforfeeding to the cattle in the milking shed. The main shearing shed engine had been removed to the dairy and a small and troublesome Sunshine engine was put in to turn the grinder. For the first shearing I can remember after the war a couple ofshearers who had their own generator and electric machines were used. Then, after Frank went to Geegeelup, he moved back into sheep and the shed and machine were restarted. The ji-iend he refers to was Jim Daly who had recently returned from the war and was fmming out at Winn[jup. The Jann he had was not very good and was only partially developed so he needed to supplement his income. I was actually with Frank when he drove out to meet Jim to seek his help. The Dalys were a truly remarkable couple. Kath, Jim's wife, who was totally devoted to Jim and his driving ambition, used to be left sometimes for weeks at a time alone with no transport and two small children on thefmm while Jim went shearing. Always his aim was to become the owner ofa pastoral sheep station in the north ofthe State. He had this goal from his first trip north with one ofthe large shearing teams that travelled through the region each season in those days, before WW1I andfor many years after. With limited resources and sheer hard work he eventually achieved his ambition and owned "Erabiddy" Station in the Gascoyne for some years. He and Frank became lifelong friends and after Mum died Frank would quite often take himself offup to "Erabiddy" to stay with Jim and Kath. Jack and I both remember those early days well. Quite often when Jim came in to shear or crutch or help Frank he would arrive early in the morning in his old Dodge Four ute. The first we would know ofhis arrival was when he carried us and our beds and threw us out into the cold, wet grass! It was a sharp awakening not necessarily improved by Jim's urifailing chee1fit!ness I After we had kno'(Vl1 Jim for several years a severe tornado crossed ourfann on a wet and stormy July night. In the morning an extraordinmy sight met our ryes. It had passed directly over the shearing shed and literally torn it to pieces. Sheets ofgalvanised iron lay twisted and torn up to a ldlometrefrom the shed. The only part left intact was the floor and that only because it had heavy bags ofsuperphospahate stored on it. A number ofhuge trees had been felled but a large jarrah tree standing opposite the shed had remained standing. Stripped ofits leaves it had lodged high in it a single length oftimber fi·om the shed. It remained therefor many years, a source ofamazement as to how the wind could have had such ferocity to have lifted a bare piece of timber some twenty metres or so in the air. Poor Frank was stunned and at something ofa loss as to what to do. New galvanised iron was unprocurable and the work ofcleaning up the mess in time for shearing in October seemed daunting. Jim Daly appeared and together they collected up the twisted iron and timber. The iron was re-rolled and the shed put back together. The super, which had been soaked by rain, had all gone hard in the bags and had to be laboriously broken up before it could be spread on the paddocks. Amazingly, when the tornado went through it left untouched a small hut about fifty metres from the shearing shed. Two men who were rabbit trapping or something were camped there and in comparative calm they heard the dreadfit! noise of the shearing shed being demolished and huge trees being felled. It must have sounded like the end ofthe world.-DW)

And at that time they weren't using blades still were they?

Oh no. No. No! Blades had long gone. We had been shearing with blades. There was an old blade shearer tliat I knew and he taught me to shear with blades and I'll never forget it! We were left at the end of the day with twenty-five sheep and he said, "Well I won't come back, you can shear those." It was an object lesson to me because there is more to shearing with blades than meets the eye. You've got to know how to sharpen them and ifyou don't know it's hell and I went through hell shearing those twenty-five sheep I can promise you! It was alright when he was sharpening the shears for me. By the time I had finished three or four sheep the real edge started to wear off and I'd try and sharpen them but there's a bit of an art about sharpening shears. I'll never forget those twenty-five sheep.

So, what sort of mechanism did you have for the mechanical shearing in those days?

Overhead shaft with wheels on it that were bevelled to fit the cone that drives ...

Oh yes, that drives the shearing handpiece.

Yes. And that would be running by some sort of stationary motor.

Yes. It was a fairly easy thing to run. You could run half a dozen stands with a three or four horsepower motor.

Not electric?

No, they were about but they didn't come in until a bit later. Actually when my son had it all the method of shearing had completely changed. No bending, they shore on a platform. No bending to pick the fleeces up, you'd sweep them off this raised platform. The only bloke to bend his back was the shearer. (I'his must have been when Jack had another farm after I had left Bridgetown because I do not know anything about it. During my years Jack and I enlarged Frank's two stand shearing shed and put in a11;other two stands ofthe same type ofequipment. I, certainly, never enjoyed the luxury ofnot having to bend to pick up the fleeces 1-D W)

Well, we'd better get on to talking more about the war I think. Were there other things that were difficult for the farmer during the war other than shortages of labour, what other sorts of problems did you have as a result of the war?

Oh, shortages of materials and that sort of thing but they weren't very, very bad.

You could get tyres for your car and fuel for your car and so on?

Yes, they were rationed but you had to get a permit to buy them and some fellows had difficulties because they would cheat but ·if they knew you were to be relied on it was no trouble at all.

Was there much of a black market going on during the wartime in things that were short?

There was a little bit but not very much. Most people were honest. There were some who were anything but, but they were very much in a minority.

Did you see anything in Bridgetown of air raid shelters and air raid drills and that sort of thing?

No. We had some training in it but it never ... we were in what they called the VDC, Volunteer Defence Corps and we'd be taken away to other areas. Busselton ... we went several times to Busselton for exercises but it wasn't all that much. (I think Frank has forgotten some details as there were some preparations made including the digging of extensive trenches around the school. I think Frank himself helped with that job. There was an air raid siren on a pole not far from the school which was tested regularly so people would recognise the wailing sound that it made. I was sent to school at the little Blackwood Park School out at the Hester's farm, "Dalgarup ", starting in mid 1942, I think. There were only about eight pupils. They included Anthony and Fleur Ege11on-Warburton and their cousin Jennifer Egerton-Warburton, Madge Hester, Rob Hall, Margaret Scriven and the teacher's daughter Jennifer Jones, who was too young but came anyway to make up the numbers. I think I was sent there partly because I was related to several of them and also because it was felt there was less risk ofbombing out there. As this was at the height ofthe war several other children from the city also attended for short periods for the same reason. We were very aware ofthe war although not really ofitsfitlll ramifications. Rob Hall's older brothe1~ Tony, was in the Royal Australian Air Force, I think in Europe, and it was ofhim we used to think when we sang "The White Cliffs ofDover" and "Coming in on a Wing and a Prayer". It must have wmked because he returned safely to later become a prominentfigure in the mining industry and be credited with playing a leading role in the discovery ofthe Kambalda nickel field. As Frank mentioned elsewhere cars were equipped with hoods on their lights and a blaclwut was observed at night although I am not sure just how tightly it was policed. Frank mentioned the VDC, ofwhich he was a member, and I remember a large exercise that was held on Applewood itself To a small boy there seemed like hundreds ofmen in uniform but I suppose it was probably much less. I particularly remember the signs that were erected to guide the visiting units to the right place (I think, as in England, all road signs had been taken down). They comprised a V cutfrom galvanised iron about twenty centimetres high, which were nailed to roadside trees at intervals along the road culminating in the last one at the entrance to Applewood itself. They remained on the trees for many years after the war had ended. Although Frank says petrol was not hard to get I think he may not be completely right. We seemed to use the car ve1y little and I don't think he did have many problems as a Janner but people with businesses that, perhaps, were not regarded as quite so vital to the war effort certainly did. Some vehicles were converted to run on gas producers. These comprised an enclosed firebox which burned charcoal in an air restricted container producing carbon monoxide gas which was then used asji1el in the engine. Usually mounted at the back ofthe car they were heavy and left the carve1y low in power. They also caused a significant fire hazard as they had to be raked out and reloaded with charcoal fairly regularly and ofcourse the charcoal itselfhad to be carried on the vehicle. The gas caused engines to wear out too but did provide an alternative fi1el. I have read since the war that there was never any actual shortage ofpetrol but the Government, quite rightly, placed the nation on a rationing regime to meet possiblefitture eventualities. Frank mentions black market activities during the war. My understanding and to some extent memory is that while there was probably little blackmarket at the height of the war a considerable amount built up late in the war and even more in its aftennath when the Government continued rationing long after any real need for it existed. Clothing, butter and some other items were still rationed when I first went to boarding school in 1950 and petrol rationing was only abolished after the General Election in 1949 when Robert Menzies won government with the abolition ofpetrol rationing as a major policy. I remember Frank bought both a new truck and a new tractor just after the war and for at least one he had to go to Perth to be interviewed at offices, which, I think, were set up in Government House Ballroom. Supplies of all these sorts of items were severely restricted after the war mostly because ofan acute shortage of US currency with which to import them. I remember Frank describing one ofthese interviews during which the Government official he was talking to was also carrying on a surreptitious telephone conversation. Frank became convinced that the official was talldng with another applicant who was offering money to get the truck that Frank wanted. That may or may not have been tnie. Frank didn 't get what he wanted but the Ford tnick he did get proved to be a very faithfitl se1vantfor over twenty years.-DW

I suppose you were a bit out of the line that they thought would be attacked.

Yes. They thought in the early days that the Japanese ... because of the bombing ofDanvin, they thought that they were going to attack Western Australia but it never happened. Where they did come in for attack was on the eastern coast. They never got ashore. What was it? ... (I think Frank means landings because WA certainly was attacked. Broome, Derby and Wyndham were all heavily bombed with considerable loss of life, especially in Broome. Some bombs were dropped as far south as Onslow and Exmouth.-DW)

Those mini-subs that came into Sydney for example.

Yes and they were hanging around Queensland's coast ... the battle of...

The Coral Sea?

Yes, the Coral Sea. That's what I was trying to think of. Yes, I think they were foolish to think the other way because if you think it out they might as well have an ocean as the Nullabor. To try and get troops across the Nullabor would be a pretty big task. Too many ways of attacking them. In fact half the Japs would have been lost completely. There is water on the Nullabor if you know where and how to find it but to start off a thousand mile march or with trucks ...They need all the servicing too. No, I don't think they'd have faced that.

Did you have anything in the way of blackouts in Bridgetown, war blackouts?

Yes, we certainly ... they had electricity in Bridgetown but it was a local setup, a fellow had come and settled there and it was pretty poor. A something and a nothing really. (I think Frank is referring to powerfailures rather than wartime blackouts although I think a blackout was enforced at the height ofthe Japanese advance. There were certainly stringent blackout provisions in Perth and coastal towns.-DW)

Did you have the hooded headlights on the car and that sort of thing?

Oh God, yes. I smashed my car up. I'd been away to Manjimup to a sale and the agent, the Goldsboroughs representative said. "I'd better drive you home" and I said, "No, I'll go home". He said, "Alright if you reckon you're right". So I started off with these silly lights; you might as well have none. And I hadn't got more than half a mile from Bridgetown when a damned animal of some sort, a cow? I just saw this dark object right in front of me and I swerved to miss this thing and got my front wheel over a little bank ....

EndofSideA

Tape 10 Side B

So you ran off the road and you actually hit a tree you said?

Yes, not a very big tree, a little tree. But it did enough damage. I got out to walk and I thought, no I think I can drive her home. I got something grating, the fan, I got out and peeled it off the radiator or whatever it was it was hitting and I drove her home. But she was hitting. My wife heard it coming and she came out and said, "What on earth are you doing?" I said, "I ran into a tree".

You were OK yourself?

Oh yes. I was going very slow with those lights you know.

Yes, because they only had a little slit for the light to come out didn't they those covers? (I am afraid there was a bit more to this story than Frank let on! It actually happened after the war when we were living at "Geegeelup" and the light hoods had been gone for several years although in fairness to Frank the Plymouth car that he was driving did have very poor lights. His own words tell you what really happened. Why would the Goldborough 's agent offer to drive him home after a sale? It was, ofcourse, because, as usually happened after a sale, they had adjourned for a long session at the hotel and Frank, who n01mally had a very hard head, must have been a bit the worse for wear. He always stuck to his story about the cow and perhaps it was true but he was ve,y sheepish for a few days after this, the only accident ofthat nature he ever had in nearly eighty years ofdriving. The car had to be sent away on the train for repairs although it wasn't really very badly damaged.-DW)

Yes, that's right. There wasn't much light at all. You were literally driving in the dark.

And what sort of vehicle were you driving in those days?

I've completely forgotten the name of the thing. This was a car that my father had owned and he died and my mother couldn't drive and she lent it to a fellow that lived in Bridgetown. I knew him quite well. In fact he married a relation of mine but I heard enough stories about him driving it to know that it would very soon be a wreck so I got it and took it away from him. I said, "give that car to me." He said, "your mother gave it to me." I said, "she's taken it away again." So I got the car and used it myself. And I sold my car. Oh, it was a Chev that I sold. Yes, I sold the Chev for more than I'd paid for it. A fellow came and offered me the price. I said, "God, that's more than I paid for it." I think he offered me £300 and I'd paid £250 for it. That's right.

That's because you couldn't get new cars during the war was it? No you couldn't get new. Yes, a friend of mine came and offered me and I said. "Yes you can have it. I don't want two cars." And he offered the £300 so I said "yes, you can have it for that." I didn't bargain about it, I was getting a profit.

It's not often that happens with a car is it?

Funny damned thing, it happened for me for years. This was the first car I bought that had been my father's and I can't remember the sequence ofit all now but I'd had lived on cheap cars right up until after the war when I bought a ... funny how you can't even remember the name ofa car ... Well known name. (It was a 1937 Plymouth which Frank drove until after he entered Parliament in 1955. He replaced it with another Plymouth in 1956. The large American cars disappeared fi·om the Australian market soon after that. They had Australian built bodies on an American made chassis. The American cars dominated the Australian market until after WW II with brands such as Ford, Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Dodge, Plymouth, De Soto, Nash and others. They were much more suited to the rough Australian roads than the English and European cars of the era. The change to monoque type bodies where the required rigidity was provided by the vehicle body itself rather than a separate chassis changed the nature ofcar making and was introduced with the first Holden in 1948. The events described above actually happened just after the war had ended but new vehicles were still unobtainable for several years. After the second Plymouth Frank remained faithfit! to the Chrysler brand and drove a series of Valiants which he changed every couple ofyears. He always enjoyed driving and his Parliamentary career necessitated driving very long distances around his large electorate. He always preferred to drive to see someone rather than use the phone.-DW)

Well coming back to the war for a moment then is there any other way that you can think that the war actually affected you in Bridgetown? For example were there members of your family that were involved with the fighting and who didn't come back?

Yes, there were a few. There were three that had actually worked on our farm. I knew them quite well. But the three of them came back. One never got to the war, I don't think. I think it was because he had a terrible stammer. It was wonder they let him go because when they put him in the artillery... but they never got him out of England. I think they reckoned with the stammer he bad he would be useless. They should never have let him go. He was one of those useful people at home that were no good at all overseas because he never got out of England. (I think Frank is referring to the First World War here and I don't think the men he refers to were actually members of the family. Frank's first cousin, Henry Willmott (father ofJim and Percy), lost a leg on the Somme in the first world war but returned home and later became a member of the State Parliament. As far as I know none ofFrank's Willmott family served in the Second World War. They were all either too old or too young or in Frank's own case also "manpowered". Several ofhis Brockman first cousins served but I think they all returned safely although several ofthe more distantly related Brockman and Bussell cousins lost their lives. Probably the casualty closest to Frank would have been his wife's first cousin Bob McGregor, Stuart's father, who was a member ofthe 2128th Battalion and lost his life during the famous Siege ofTobruk. The Australians defending Tobruk, which is in present day Libya, were known as the "Rats ofTobntk". This name was given to them by German propaganda broadcasters who said, "They are caught like rats in trap". Instead they held offRommel and the Germans and Italians for some months and wore the tag "Rats ofTobruk" proudly.-D W)

Did you ever see anything of the American troops in Bridgetown. I mean there were Americans variously around the cities weren't there?

Yes, there were a few. My brother had one who came and stayed with him for a part of his leave. Quite an interesting fellow. There were one or two others but there weren't many... because I asked one ... I was in Perth for some reason. Oh, a Roads Board meeting of some sort and I met this fellow. I said, "Come home with me tonight if you'd like to see something of the country." "No, no, no". I said, "Oh, what's the matter?" He said, "I never know when I'm going to be called up at a moments notice. Ifl'm going off for 200 miles ... " I said, "Oh, about 170." "Yes, I'd never get back here if you drove me yourself, flat out. What I'd been called up for would be gone. So I can't leave." So that was that.

So generally, then Bridgetown was somewhat screened from some of the things that other people in Australia suffered during the war?

Oh yes, very much so. Very much so.

We'll now perhaps tum our attention to just post-war. It was not all that long after the war that you started to be interested in politics I think. You were elected in '55 weren't you? So perhaps we tum our attention to that for a little while now.

Was I elected in 1955?

I think it was from '55 ti11'74 wasn't it?

That's right. Yes that's right; nineteen years.

So how did you frrst develop your interest in becoming a parliamentarian?

Oh, through my father. He was in Parliament and he often used to take me with him when on political trips, when he was standing and when he was re-standing. Mainly, I think, because of the condition of the roads. I could drive the car. I wasn't strong enough to heave it out of a bog or anything. He'd get me to drive it and he'd heave it out so I often used to go with him.

How did you come to be tied up with the Liberal Party then when he was actually a Country Party man wasn't he?

Yes, he was the first leader ... or there was one elected before but it was only a matter of weeks and he couldn't get on with the Liberals so they elected my father to be the leader. He could get on with them alright. But I've often thought about it. He didn't survive. He only served twelve years altogether, seven in the lower house and five in the Legislative Council. And I often thought after, I know why he didn't survive. Because he did not give his electorate the attention it required. That end of the country is very keen on seeing their member of Parliament and he went ahnost straight into the ministry which to my way ... well he couldn't get away and it wasn't very long before he was out. That's why (when) I was offered the leadership of the Party in the Legislative Council when I went in but I refused it. They said, "why?" And I told them .. .Dave Brand was the Premier at the time ... he said, "do you really mean this?" I said, "yes, I won't be here very long ifl don't give the electorate my attention." It's the tradition in that electorate. You're there as long as you give them the attention. If you cease to do that you're out on your ear''. "Alright, he said if it's like that you'd better do as you want. Let someone else take it." (I can confirm that this did occur and remember the family discussion at the time. Arthur Griffiths became leader and went on to be a senior minister in the Brand government. I think Frank regretted his decision later although there was a later time when he was quietly asked ifhe would accept a ministry and agreed but in the finish was not invited. He was probably getting a bit old by then.-DW)

How did you frrst get tied up with the Liberal Party?

In the non-parliamentary administration of the Liberal Party. I used to attend meetings in Perth and that sort of thing on behalf of the party quite a lot. I don't know why I took it on but I did and that gradually got me in to where I could hardly refuse.

Had you ever met Robert Menzies for example? Yes, I met him under rather funny circumstances in Western Australia. The Liberal Party put on a candidate who was a good farmer and all that sort of thing but a terribly uneducated. I remember he met Menzies at the same time as I did, He said, "oh! So you've arrove have you." I saw Menzies look at him and look at me and think these are two different sort of people. He was a clever bloke in many ways but what you'd call almost completely uneducated. Which he was. His mother had left her husband when this fellow, Jim, was only a boy really and he wanted to get over. He knew she had come to Western Australia. He found a way to get over. He joined a circus! He travelled with the circus and when they got over, the circus came to Bridgetown and he deserted the circus then and got a job in Bridgetown. (This was Jim Cummings who was a ve1y successful and well respected farmer at Bo yup Brook. When Frank and Joe purchased the property known as "Spring Hills" at Mayanup in the late thirties it was from Jim Cummings. Frank and Joe only owned this very good property for a couple ofyears before the approach of World War II made them decide to sell and consolidate at "Applewood". It was bought by Bruce Wallace in whose family it still remains. Jim Cummings was always !mown as "Bendy" and I always thought it was because he was considered a bit shrewd by his less able contemporaries. Howeve1~ Frank told me that he had also thought this but later found that he was given this name at school because he had come from Bendigo in Victoria. I think Frank was told this story by Harold Armstrong who had served in the I 0th Light Horse during WWI with Jim and a number ofother Bridgetown identities including Peter Egerton-Warburton. He was some years older than Frank and cannot have stayed at school very long. His mother ran the Bridgetown Coffee Palace now Nelson House.-DW)

And then he became a Liberal Party member? (Jim Cummings did not win the election he stood at. I think these events must have taken place during the 1946 General Election when Nelson Lemmon held the seat ofForrest for the Labor Party. At the 1949 election the seat was won by Gordon Freeth for the Liberals. There was a big swing away from Labor at that election and Nelson Lemmon siiffered from the same problem as Frank's father. He became a minister and was not able to give the electorate the attention it felt it deserved. A similarfate overtook Gordon Freeth many years later.-DW)

Yes.

And going back to meeting Menzies with him. Was Menzies in Bridgetown or was it elsewhere that you met him?

No. It was in Bridgetown. Bridgetown seemed to be a place that most of the leaders that came over visited. It was politically minded sort of a place and they always seemed to visit it.

Is this before you actually went into Parliament yourself that you met Menzies there.

Yes.

So coming to the actual. .. you obviously had to stand for pre-selection I suppose before you could get into the upper house. Can you tell me about the process of pre-selection?

Yes. Generally for the electorate that I represented finally there were always a few hopefuls there, They never they lacked for adherents. And there was a fellow had stood for Parliament himself and I was opposed to him at the selection committee and I had a very good reason for doing so. Because I knew... an uncle of mine was a great friend of his and he was a member of Parliament. And I also knew he was probably the worst member of Parliament that ever was. He just didn't do anything ... he was a playboy. That's all it meant to him. And I knew that if this fellow that I was opposed to ... he'd be there for that purpose alone. He'd be a playboy with my uncle so I opposed him. My mother and sister and most ofmy family, oh, they were giving me hell but not my father. He'd been in politics and he knew all about them. He said, "don't involve me in your arguments. But you 're quite right but I don't want to get involved in it. But", he said, "he'd be absolutely useless there." So I stuck to my guns. When I came up, oh! Did I get opposition!! In fact the first time they defeated me and quite a good fellow got the job. He was quite capable. And bless my soul he only lasted about eighteen months or two years and he died.

Who was the chap Frank?

I've been trying to think of his name. I met his wife after when I stood. No it's gone. (His name was Charles Henning - D W) What was I saying?

You missed out the first time around and then this man died.

Yes. I was quite aware that this fellow, Thomson, I had to find a way of getting around him so I called a few of my mates together and I said, "well, I think this needs a bit of collusion." They said, "what do you suggest?" I said, "well I suggest that if this fellow, Thomson, he'll try the same thing again but I want somebody to be ready when he asks me ifl was a member of the Farmers Union. Somebody amongst you fellows wants to get up and ask me. "Well you tell us you're not a member of the Farmers Union can you tell us any other organisation to do with farming to which you do belong?" I said, "I can answer that." Sure enough one of these fellows popped up and put this question to me. I said, "well, I'm a member of the Fruit Grower's Association and I'm a member of the Pastoralist's Association and as my two occupations in farming are growing fruit and growing wool I think those two organisations are the best to represent my particular interests". That went down. Plonk!!! I'd defeated him. They lmew that what I said was correct you see and I wasn't fooling anybody.

So you carried the day in the selection battle?

Oh, yes, carried the day completely. If I hadn't thought of that I'd have been defeated again. (Frank always disliked the Farmers Union which he felt was too closely allied to the Country Party and too socialistic in its demands for subsidies and other forms ofgovernment assistance. He had always refitsed to join for that reason and wasn't about to do so to please other people.-DW)

And were you contesting a by-election or an election in this case?

A by-election in the place of the man who had died; who had defeated me.

Initially yes. Who was standing against you in that by-election?

One member only; Labor. And it was an absolute disaster for him. I can remember the figures today from my home town of Bridgetown. I got ... I can't remember the exact figure I got... but around the two hundred and fifty mark. The Labor man got fifteen votes. Because I lmew it, it was a big area, went right up, took in Serpentine and all up in that northern country and out to the coast. A very big area in those days. It just stopped outside Armadale. The next little village just south of Armadale was in so it was an enormous area.

Byford you mean?

Byford yes. It went from Byford down to Walpole which is a bloody big area and the coast all round.

Would you have preferred a lower house seat or not?

Had there been one available but they asked me to stand for the lower house seat, Nelson was the seat in those days. I said, "no." They said, "why?" "Because I lmow I haven't the vaguest hope in the world of winning it." "Why not?" I said, "do you know the seat?" And so I detailed what the seat represented. "Now," I said. "Doesn't that sound like a Labor seat to you?" "Yes, I think you're right, nobody could win that." I said, "that's right."

Was that centred on Collie? Yes. And all the Manjimup area was heavily Labor too because of the timber area was centred around there then. Heavily Labor. (The seat ofBlackwood,for which Ilater stood unsuccessfi1lly, was constituted in 1948 for the 1950 election so these events must have taken place before then as that seat was held by John Hemm an for the Liberal Party for a number ofyears from 1950 until it was lost to the Counhy Party, eventually won back by the Liberal Party and subsequently abolished. Blackwood, unlike Nelson, was never a Labor seat. Nelson, and later Warren was for many years represented by a particularly able Labor member, Ernie Hoar, and it would have be to the time when he was member for Nelson that Frank would be referring.­ DW)

So when you got to Parliament then. Can you remember 1he occasion of having to give your maiden speech? Can you remember some of 1he things you said?

I can remember my maiden speech because it was a by-election and there was only one maiden ... no there was another fellow elected at the same time as me. From Boulder. (Jack Cumtingham-DW) I remember we both made our maiden speech that day or his maiden speech for that time because he had been in before and been defeated and he stood at a by-election and won it and he was defeated at the forthcoming ... he stood again later and won it. But I can remember my maiden speech alright It consisted mainly of pointing out to the government the inequalities existing in the seat. For instance Collie. I said. "Could anyone dream for an instant that that could be anything but a hard Labor seat." I said. "In my humble opinion it would be far better moved into the next seat (I can't remember what it was called now) because that is Labor. That would be a hard, fast Labor seat then. But as it is now it's anybody's bet. You depend on the fellow you get. It will be won by the man. Not anything to do with politics. That's the sort of seat it is." And I was lucky to be the man. I didn't expect any thing ofit. But within a couple of years the Labor Party had seen the advantage. They got a tough seat because I'd won it. They woke up. They had a redistribution of seats and they made my seat into a humdinger. You couldn't take it away for love or money and they created a good Labor seat which is more beneficial, I think, than everlastingly having change. Because, if it's one of those seats people change their minds. "Oh, he's not too much, we'll try the other bloke." And they switch, everlastingly. And, that's not good for politics.

So, in Parliament, what were your major interests? The things that you were mainly concerned wi1h. What issues of the day concerned you mostly?

I was pretty much a jack of all trades because I was lucky in being a very good speaker. I could make myself understood in common language. Some fellows go to the dictionary and try to use all the big words that half the fellows don't know what they are talking about. I did the opposite. Always spoke in simple language and it paid off.

We haven't got a lot of tape left. Can you just finish up by telling me was it a wor1hwhile experience in Parliament and what did it do for you? What did you do for the State?

It's certainly worthwhile. I did quite a lot for the State by my method of refusing cabinet post. It wasn't easy to do at the time but the fellow I advised them to appoint was a very good man, he was very even tempered, a very logical speaker. He was no fool and I had always told him... "Why didn't you take it?" I said, "because I was the wrong bloke in the wrong place, I think and you can rest assured that I will back you all the way." And he returned that. If ever I was in difficulty he'd get to his feet backing me up all the time. They were very exciting days my time in politics.

Yes. It was the Brand government essentially followed by then Tonkin who were major leaders in your time?

Yes. There was one other leader, can't remember his name. Tape ended. (The other leader was Bert Hawke, uncle ofBob Hawke, who was the Labor Premier when Frank entered Parliament in 1955 until 1959. Some ofthe aspects ofFrank's political career need some elaboration. Most of it I can remember quite clearly because I had left school in 1953 and ran the farm after he went into Parliament. I was also actively involved in the Liberal Party myself through most ofthe time. In his comments about his pre-selection Frank mentions "Thomson". The events he refers to which caused the rift with Guy Thomson had occurred before WW II when Guy was a candidate for the seat of Nelson. The Liberal Party (or what ever it was called at that time) had endorsed several candidates, a practice that was fairly common until the early fifties, one ofwhom was Guy Thomson and hadpassed over Bill Scott whom Frank considered a much better candidate than either ofthe others. Bill Scott was, I think, then endorsed by the Country Party. Frank supported and worked for Bill Scott while Joe and the others supported Guy Thomson. Neither candidate won. I think it was won by Jack Smith at the time. "Somersaulting" Jack Smith, who had defeated Frank's father, sat at various times as a Labor member, a Liberal and an independent. Frank's opposition to Guy had obviously left wounds made deeper by the fact that Guy was ofcourse a distant cousin ofFrank's being descended Ji-om Alfred Bussell. I had not realised how deep this had been until listening to this tape. Bill Scott who was tragically killed in a car accident a couple ofyears later was father of Colin Scott, grandfather ofRoss. When Frank stood for pre-selection it was some fifteen years after these events but the bitterness remained and Frank felt Guy was opposing him because ofthem. I remember the meeting at Geegeelup to plan tactics. The principal supporter with whom Frank planned tactics was Fred Lee-Steere the local Goldsborough 's manager, who had succeeded Frank as President ofthe Bridgetown Branch ofthe Liberal Party and was also a close friend ofFrank's. The Labor opponent at the election was a Collie Janner, Ernie Stapleton and as Frank says it was a wallwver. So much so that during the next nineteen years Frank was never opposed again at an· election several times being the only memberfrom either house not opposed. This was surprising given that in 1971 when I stood for the seat ofBlackwood my Legislative Council running mate, Vic Ferry, only held his seat by about seventy votes. He was one ofFrank's fellow members in what were then two member seats with one member retiring every General Election. Frank himselfretired at the next election in 1974. When Frank was first elected to the Legislative Council in 1955 its constitution and method ofelection was quite different to those ofmore modem times. It had voluntary enrolment and voting on a franchise restricted to people who owned property or paid rent to a certain value. The requirements were fairly minimal but ofcourse being voluntary meant that the organisation and conduct ofan election was quite different. The electorates were very big, as Frank says, with three members. One member retired every two years giving individual terms ofsix years. Elections were held separately from Legislative Assembly elections. The principal tasks for an election were really to ensure that people who were expected to vote for the Party candidate were enrolled and then on election day to ensure that they had voted. This meant keeping lists and noting when people came to vote and then calling the laggards as the close ofpolling approached. Some people took a delight in delaying tactics. I well remember that election as I worked with Fred Lee-Steere all day. At the end ofthe day Fred stated that the Labor candidate had only got thirteen votes. When it turned out to befifteen Fred went in search ofthe culprits! It took about two years before he could say who they were but he was confident he knew. Ofcourse, the reason the Labor vote was so low was because Labor supporters did not vote rather than vote for or against Frank who was well known to them. Frankprobably understated his political career which had several highlights that I remember. He was a member ofan important Parliamenta1y Royal Commission into the War Service Land Settlement Scheme which had run into serious problems by the midfifties. -DW)

The following was prepared by my wife and me for one of our grand-daughters who was doing a project at school about the Second World War.

Recollections by Del Willmott of World War Two I was just over three years old when the war started and just over nine when it ended. As a result I have a series ofseparate memories rather than continuous memo,y and ofcourse the things I remember are often small things that made an impression on a young child.

Most ofall my memories ofthe war years are like a black and white film. I can just remember some events just before the war such as going to a circus and going shopping on Christmas Eve (probably in 1939, after the war had started in Europe but still seeming a long way from Australia). Those memories are ofbright lights, the headlights of the cars, the brightly lit shops with toys and sweets and other things to catch the eye ofa child. Then came the war. There were no toys available. We almost never went out at night and when we did Grampie could only drive at walldng speed because ofthe covered headlights on the car. I remember the hoods being fitted on the car lights and a white line painted around the car to make it more visible in the dark. This was done so enemy aircraft would not be able to see the lights.

There were no picture shows and no Agricultural Shows.

I remember going to Perth with my mother. We got on the train at about seven in the morning in Bridgetown. It was an old steam train which broke down so that we got to Perth at around 1 0pm. Perth was in almost total darkness as a strict blackout was enforced. When we got out to Claremont where my grandmother lived we used a Hansom cab to get to her home in Victoria Parade (now Freshwater Parade). A Hansom cab was a horsedrawn vehicle with one horse and they were operated by a man called Williams from Claremont Railway Station. There is a plaque there opposite the station. You had to climb up high into it and then we clip-clopped offthrough the darkened and deserted streets. The mem01y is almost like that ofa scene from Victorian London.

I went to a very small school with only about eight students, nearly all cousins ofmine. One of the older boys had an older brother in England with the Royal Australian Air Force so we heard about him and used to think ofhim when we sang songs like "The White Cliffs ofDover" and "Coming in on a Wing and a Prayer". Late,r I moved to the bigger school in Bridgetown where there were trenches dug all around the schoolfor the teachers and children to run to ifan air-raid started. Fortunately one never did but they used to sound the air-raid alarm every day at noon to check that it worked. I can still hear the eerie wailing sound that it made.

There were several events in Bridgetown that I particularly remember. We rarely saw aircraft but on one occasion in about 1942 a Tiger Moth became lost on a training flight from Busselton. We saw him at intervals for several hours and then he disappeared. At school the next day we learnt that he had crash landed on a farm south ofBridgetown where there was a rudimentmy airstrip. Some ofthe children had been taken out to see the wrecked aircraft but I never saw it. I don't think the pilot was injured. On another occasion late in the war there was great excitement when we learnt that a famous Lancaster bomber would fly over the town. I clearly remember seeing it approach from the north and fly low over our farm and then the town. I could not wait to get to school next day to tell my friends that it had passed so low over our farm that I was sure there must be marks at the top ofthe hill where the wing had surely touched the ground!! I took care not to check my story before telling it. The aircraft was, of course, "G for George" now in the National War Museum in Canberra. The flight that I remember was one ofa series undertaken all over Australia to assist in the raising ofmoney for the war effort.

Eventually the war ended,first in Europe, then nearer to Australia when the Japanese surrendered. I remember the great celebrations even in a little town like Bridgetown. The steam engines in town continuously sounded their whistles and everybody felt a huge sense ofrelief We children were all given small medals to commemorate the occasion. Sadly, I have long since lost mine. There was huge parade at the showgrounds with floats hurriedly prepared. Two that I remember were a small boat on a truck with the local doctor, who was rather bald and stout, wielding a large set ofbellows pretending to blow the fire in a pretend steam engine with a fimnel. The other was a car absolutely covered, so you couldn't see it with boronia. It was boronia season and in those days you could easily find large amounts ofthe sweet scentedflowers close to Bridgetown. Ofcourse there were otherfloats but I don't remember them. Soon there were toys in the shops. You could buy chocolates and sweets again and go to the pictures. The lights had come on again qfter six long years.

I sometimes wonder ifthings had gone differently would we have been boat people and who would have welcomed us into their country.

My memories and impressions of!ife during World War II Jennifer Willmott

I was born at the end of1938 so my memories ofwar time are those ofa small child. My family lived in Fiji and my mother has told me that we were officially on the ':front line" which means, I think, that the Japanese were thought likely to invade the country. Some ofmy earliest memories are ofsoldiers, both American and New Zealand, living in camps just up the road from where we lived on a Jann at Navua. My father was ''man-powered"which meant he was more use to the war effortfanning than being in the a,my. He was part ofthe home guard though. Most of these soldiers were the same age as he was and he often invited them home to enjoy a bit offamily life. I remember how the soldiers often brought treats with them - things like chocolate and canned fruit that we couldn't buy in the shops. They also had cigarettes but my parents didn't smoke so they didn't accept any ofthose. My grandmother ran a little holiday hotel on the beach at Korolevu and there were always soldiers staying there. They used to like to play with us. The Americans taught my grandmother to make hamburgers. They helped her with jobs round the place too. I remember seeing an aeroplane that had crashed just near the cowshed. I remember standing on the rails ofthe yard and looldng at this plane standing on its nose in a large hole that it had made. It wasn't a very big plane. I can't remember whether the pilot escaped or not. My parents spoke later about how they used to count the planes leaving in the morning then again as they came home in the afternoon. There were usually some missing. When I turned five we had moved to Ba where my father was woddngfor the Department of Agriculture. There was no petrol for the car which was locked in the garage so I had to start school by correspondence. The school was aboutfive miles from where we lived. At about this time we had gas masks hanging behind our ldtchen door in case we should ever need them. We had to practise wearing them and they frightened me. My father also had a large rifle and there was a trench at the bottom of the garden to hide in ifwe were bombed. Lucidly the Japanese never did land in Fiji so we never needed those things. The shops never had any luxury items in them - like nice clothes or shoes- or balloons orpeanut butter. My mother made our clothes out ofold dresses ofhers and sometimes, old flour bags, and Indian bootmakers made our shoes. We had to have birthday parties without balloons but my parents used to grind up peanuts that they had grown themselves and make peanut butter! It was nice too. By the time the war ended in September 1945, I was nearly seven and was going to school with a neighbour's son. This boy's father had petrol for his car because he worked for the Public Works Department and had to travel round a bit. My father was still riding a horse each morning to his work. The day peace was declared-we called it VJ day-we were given a halfholiday from school and eve1yone cheered. The little sugar trains from the mill opposite the school ran round madly with their whistles blowing the whole time. It was all very exciting. We used to have a parade on the anniversmy of VJ day for many years afterwards in Ba. Slowly things started to return to nonnal after the war. We could drive the car again and the street lights in the towns were lit up again. I don't know how long it was before we could buy clothes again but we could certainly get new cloth to make them from. The Indian bootmakers went on making our shoes for a long time though - they were very good at it. They'd draw round ourfeet on a piece ofpaper and in a week we'd have a pair ofpe1fectly fitting shoes! The trench in the bottom ofthe garden was filled in and the gas masks disappeared from behind the ldtchen door. I went to the cinema for the first time in my life and saw a film called "Springtime in the Rocldes". Even now I can remember how exciting that was. We didn't even have a radio in our house­ but we did have an old wind-up gramophone which we were allowed to play on special occasions.