Tuesday Volume 533 11 October 2011 No. 204

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 11 October 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 163 11 OCTOBER 2011 164

that the type of situation the Defence Secretary has House of Commons found himself in with Mr Werritty would be exposed very clearly if there were a full, transparent register of Tuesday 11 October 2011 lobbyists, and does he also agree that that should be compulsory and introduced as a matter of urgency?

The House met at half-past Two o’clock Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman said he was going to try not to prejudge that report, but it sounded PRAYERS very much like he did. The Secretary of State for Defence was in the Chamber for an hour yesterday afternoon and gave a very good account of himself. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] [Interruption.] Yes, he did; I was present for Defence questions and his statement, and he gave a very good BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS account of himself. As the Prime Minister has said, he is doing an excellent job as Defence Secretary. The LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR Prime Minister has set up a review by the Cabinet LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) Secretary which will deal with any remaining questions, and the right hon. Gentleman rightly said that he does Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday not want to prejudge that. 18 October (Standing Order No. 20). Prisoner Voting Oral Answers to Questions 2. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): What his policy is on prisoner voting. [72855]

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): The European Court of Human Rights has granted an The Deputy Prime Minister was asked— extension to the deadline for implementing prisoner voting rights that was set in the Greens and MT judgment against the UK. That is because the Court is considering Lobbyists (Statutory Register) an Italian prisoner voting rights case—Scoppola v. Italy. It is therefore right to consider the final Scoppola 1. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): What recent judgment and the wider legal context before setting out discussions he has had on the timetable for consultation our next steps on prisoner voting. The Government will on the introduction of a statutory register of lobbyists. express their views on the principles raised in that case, [72854] and we will be arguing that it is for Parliament to decide the way forward on this issue. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper): I have corresponded with a number of ministerial Bob Stewart: The House has spoken overwhelmingly colleagues with a view to running a consultation process on one side of the argument on this issue: anyone and introducing legislation in the second Session as part serving a custodial sentence should not have a vote. I of the Government’s commitment to transparency, which very much hope the Deputy Prime Minister will recognise has already resulted in our publishing details of ministerial this appropriately in any further dealings he has on the meetings, Government procurement and a number of matter. other items of public interest.

Duncan Hames: I am sure many of us would welcome The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said to my hon. that legislation. As the House is periodically reminded, Friend, the first point of principle we are seeking to all sorts of people can seek to market their ability to establish is precisely that it is this Parliament that should lobby, and even secure access to, decision makers. A be able to determine matters such as this, and we will be voluntary register will attract only agencies seeking to arguing that in the Scoppola case that is before the uphold higher standards of practice. Will the Minister Court now. assure us that his proposed register will be comprehensive and include all those seeking to ply this trade? Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): Why does the Deputy Prime Minister support votes for Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his violent prisoners but not for law-abiding 16 and 17-year- question, and I can confirm that when we publish our olds? consultation it will be clear that we intend these proposals to be comprehensive. We will consult on them widely, The Deputy Prime Minister: I don’t. which will give all those with an interest in transparency the opportunity to comment on them. I hope that West Lothian Question reassures my hon. Friend.

Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I do not expect the 3. Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): Minister to prejudge any report by the Cabinet Secretary When he plans to establish the commission to consider on the Defence Secretary this week, but does he agree the West Lothian question. [72856] 165 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 166

6. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): When he plans to more such conversations. As he rightly says, this is a to establish the commission to consider the West complicated matter—I sometimes have to stress that to Lothian question. [72860] colleagues in this House who think it is simple—which is exactly why we have said that the commission will The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark consist of experts who understand how this place works Harper): I refer my hon. Friends to the written ministerial and can balance those complexities while making sure statement I issued on 8 September. We plan to make that we end up with a solution that is fairer to England further details, including the terms of reference and the as well as to the other parts of the United Kingdom. time scale for the commission, available to the House in the very near future. Electoral Register

Andrea Leadsom: Does my hon. Friend accept that 4. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What recent many people in England feel that at this time of economic assessment he has made of the completeness and difficulty fairness is more important than ever, and does accuracy of the electoral register. [72857] he further accept that many hold the view that English-only issues should be more in the hands of English MPs and 5. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): What recent less in the hands of MPs representing devolved parts of assessment he has made of the completeness and the UK? accuracy of the electoral register. [72858]

Mr Harper: I very much agree. Many people who live The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): There in England express concern about this potential unfairness, has been a lot of misleading coverage recently about the which is why we are going to set up the commission to effects of individual electoral registration, so may I take look carefully at how the procedures in this House can a minute to explain this? This Government will do ensure that that situation is fairer as we pass legislation. everything they can to maintain the completeness of the I hope my hon. Friend will welcome that detailed electoral register. That includes phasing in the move to announcement when it is made in due course. individual registration over two years, so that people on the register who do not apply under the new system do David Rutley: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not lose their vote at the next general election. Every important that the commission has enough time to eligible elector will be asked in 2014 to register under report its findings and that Parliament has enough time the new system. That will include: personal invites to to consider them before a referendum on Scottish people on the register; inquiries to households where no independence, which the Scottish Government indicate one is registered or people have moved; reminder letters; will take place in 2014 or 2015? and face-to-face doorstep canvassing. We are also testing data matching, to identify people missing from the Mr Harper: I am confident that when my hon. Friend register, and looking at how we can increase the choices sees the terms of reference he will see that there will be that people have about how to register. I am looking time for the commission to examine this matter, make forward to the conclusions of the pre-legislative scrutiny its proposals and enable there to be a full discussion and of the consultation, which closes this Friday, but I with all the political parties in this House, and then for do, however, have sympathy with the concerns expressed this House to take a decision on how it wants to move by the Electoral Commission and others about the forward. opt-out proposal, and I am minded to change these provisions when we bring forward the final legislation. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Does the Minister agree that the English are Graham Evans: I thank the Deputy Prime Minister every bit as good as the French and the Germans, and for that reply. It is important that we make sure that can surely govern themselves without any help from the people who do not exist or who are not eligible to vote Scots? Surely the answer to the West Lothian question do not get on to the electoral register. Equally, it is is very simple. important that those who are eligible to vote are registered. Will he please assure the House that this will happen? Mr Harper: There is a very simple answer, and I know what the hon. Gentleman thinks it is. I do not agree with The Deputy Prime Minister: That is precisely the him, most Members of this House do not agree with purpose of individual electoral registration: it seeks to him and we will do everything we can to make sure that bear down on fraud in the system. Of course, the this United Kingdom stays together. previous Government were committed to doing this in any event in a few years’ time but, as on so many Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Because we have matters now, they seem to shun any responsibility for asymmetrical devolution in the United Kingdom, the their failure to act while they were in government. We application of law, as agreed by this Parliament, is are finally here to do the job that they failed to do. different in different parts of the United Kingdom. Given that complexity, does the Minister believe it is Nick de Bois: Will the Deputy Prime Minister consider possible to have different MPs voting on different pieces bringing forward from 2014 to 2013 the mandatory of legislation without creating total legislative confusion? requirement for new applications to join the register to include the national insurance number? Mr Harper: First, may I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new position? We had a number of conversations The Deputy Prime Minister: We are bringing it forward on these constitutional matters during the progress of in any event. Under the previous Government’s plans it the two previous pieces of legislation, and I look forward would have been introduced only after the next general 167 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 168 election, but we are bringing it forward in this Parliament. Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Will Of course, we are trying to get the balance right. We my right hon. Friend reflect on the absence of 1.5 million need to proceed with this thoroughly, which is why we people from the electoral register: those who are aged are doing it carefully but in a way that means it is fully 16 and 17? When can we look forward to a time when delivered by the end of this Parliament. those people, who can raise a family and get married, who can pay taxes and who can serve in our armed forces, can vote, too? Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Whose idea was it to remove the civic duty to register to vote? Who The Deputy Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend knows, made the announcement to the House? I personally have a great deal of sympathy with that view, but it is not reflected in the coalition agreement or The Deputy Prime Minister: There will be no change shared across government. Clearly, it is a debate that we at all to the civic duty—[Interruption.] I am quite will continue to have on both sides of the House. honoured; that is the response that Opposition Members normally give to their former party leaders. If they Mr Speaker: On this question, I call Grahame Morris. listen to the answer, they might quieten down a bit. The civic duty remains exactly as it is. The proposal we have Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Thank you, made is that the opt-out should be introduced. The Mr Speaker. On the issue of compulsion, the Electoral Electoral Commission and others have raised concerns Commission has already said that to move to individual about the possible effect of such an opt-out and, as I electoral registration without compulsion will see the confirmed in my earlier answer, I consider that concern registers fall from more than 90%—this is what the sympathetically. That is the whole point of a consultation Electoral Commission says, and the Deputy Prime Minister and we will wait to see the final outcome of the consultation, is nodding his head—to 65% coverage. Ethnic minorities, which ends at the end of this week, but I am minded to young people and the urban poor will be disfranchised. change the final legislation to reflect those concerns. Apart from gerrymandering the constituency boundaries, fixing the election timetable and now letting millions of people fall off the register, what else is he doing to let Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): The Deputy Prime Minister the Tories stay in power for a generation? will be aware that people on both sides of the House share concerns about the electoral register, and that is The Deputy Prime Minister: Instead of lurching towards why before the last general election there was cross-party ludicrous conspiracy theories, the hon. Gentleman should support for an agreed timetable to move towards individual look at the facts. The Electoral Commission did not say voter registration. He refers to the Electoral Commission, what he—[Interruption.] No, the Electoral Commission which is concerned not simply about the opt-out but raised a specific concern about the opt-out. Its specific about the speeded-up timetable and the removal of the proposal was that the opt-out should be retained but fines for failing to register that, in its words, will lead should be made more difficult. We will now consider from a register of 92% to one of about 65% in many either the Electoral Commission’s variant or getting rid parts of the country, meaning that millions of voters of the opt-out altogether. That is what I am saying, in a will fall off the register. That will lead not only to the spirit of openness, that we are reflecting on, and that skewing of future boundary changes but to skewed jury will be reflected in the final version of the legislation. panels. Will he do what we did and work with all parties and the Select Committee to try to reach a proper Size of the Executive resolution for the biggest change in the way that people are registered since the introduction of the universal franchise? 8. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): What discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues on reducing the size of the Executive. [72862] The Deputy Prime Minister: I think the right hon. Gentleman is simply plain wrong about certain facts. The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): The For instance, the offence in law to sanction those who Government have been clear that they recognise the principle do not pass on information as part of the registration that there is link between the size of the legislature and process as households will remain. There will be no the Executive, so we have said that we will consider how change to that at all. The civic duty will remain, too. to address the issue in the future. The only thing we are considering, as I said earlier, is what the possible effects of an opt-out would be. We Graham Stringer: Last year the Deputy Prime Minister proposed the opt-out for a very good reason of principle. said that he wanted to reduce the size of the Government Under the existing system, registration takes place per to 73. Actually, the payroll vote has gone up to 140 in household. If, however, we make that a duty on individuals, this House, which is 43% of the way to a majority. Has the question becomes whether it is right or wrong to he not increased the size of the payroll vote so that he give an individual the right to opt out. We have proposed can get through this House many of his broken promises? that the opt-out should exist for individuals but others have raised concerns about it. I have listened sympathetically The Deputy Prime Minister: The issue of principle is to those concerns and I have already said that I am whether there is a link between the size of the Executive minded to change the provisions in the final legislation. and the size of the legislature, and I think that there is. That seems to me to be an example of a Government Clearly there is. The size of the legislature will be who are prepared to listen and to hold a sincere consultation reduced from 2015, so clearly there is a question for the process, which will come to an end at the end of this next Parliament, and indeed the next Government, about week. what the size of the Executive— 169 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 170

Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) some concern about fraud in the past, and we are (Lab): Do it now. absolutely determined to make sure that those resources are available. The Deputy Prime Minister: The size of the legislature has not been reduced right now, so it is not something Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): that we need to do right now. We have accepted the The Deputy Prime Minister has always lectured us on principle. It is now 2011; we have four years until 2015. high standards in public office, but while the Defence We will reflect on this and we will act. Secretary, by his own admission, has fallen short of those standards, the Government have failed to refer Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): him to the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests, Will the Deputy Prime Minister agree to extend the link Sir Philip Mawer. Does that not show that they are to the shadow Administration, and does he share the prepared to sacrifice high standards in public office to concern of Government Members about the growing protect the Secretary of State? number of those serving in the shadow Administration? The Deputy Prime Minister: I am sure that the right The Deputy Prime Minister: I have lost count of who hon. and learned Lady would agree with me that it is is doing what in the shadow Administration, as my hon. also important to respect high standards of due process Friend calls it, except for the right hon. and learned and fair play. The Cabinet Secretary is looking into this, Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), as, by the way, requested by her and her party until they who has an increasingly long list of responsibilities to changed their tune just a day or two ago. He is now her name. The serious point is the relationship between doing that work. He is doing that report, and until it the legislature and the Executive of the day, and the has been delivered to the Prime Minister there is no point that I seek to make is that there is an absolute link point trying to provide a running commentary on a in principle between the size of one and the other, and series of facts that are not yet revealed in that report. that is something that we will act on in the years ahead. Ms Harman: No, that is not good enough. The ministerial code of conduct says: Topical Questions “It is not the role of the Cabinet Secretary or other officials to enforce the Code.” T1. [72869] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): If The Prime Minister has admitted that the Defence he will make a statement on his departmental Secretary has made serious mistakes and there is clearly responsibilities. a need for investigation, not least into whether Mr Werritty profited by his association with the Secretary of State. The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): As Why are they blocking the proper investigation? This Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister goes to the heart of trust in Government. on a full range of Government policy and initiatives, and within Government I take special responsibility The Deputy Prime Minister: The first point is this: for this Government’s programme of political and has the Secretary of State apologised and admitted that constitutional reform. something was amiss. Yes, he has. Secondly, has the Prime Minister made it clear that this is something he Sheila Gilmore: Given the Deputy Prime Minister’s takes very seriously? Yes, he has. Thirdly, is it being role in using constitutional reform to restore trust in properly investigated? Yes, it is. [Interruption.] The politics, is he satisfied that the Secretary of State for right hon. and learned Lady now says no, but until Defence made a full and frank declaration of interests quite recently this was precisely what she was urging the in relation to his links to Adam Werritty and his security Government to do. Rather than constantly chopping company? and changing who does the investigation and produces the report, let us allow the Cabinet Secretary to do the The Deputy Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the work he has been asked to do so that the full facts can Secretary of State for Defence came before the House be made available to the Prime Minister and decisions for an hour yesterday. He was open in acknowledging can then be made. and apologising for what he concedes was a blurring of the professional, the political and the personal. Clearly, T4. [72872] Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): that raises serious issues, as he acknowledges, and those According to the Local Government Association, only are now being examined by the most senior civil servant 31% of local councillors are women, and in my local in government. Until we know what that report says, I authority Hastings borough council—sadly Labour- suggest that it is unwise to prejudge exactly what happened. run—that number is 22%. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that we as politicians must do all we can locally to ensure that as many women as possible put T2. [72870] John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): The themselves forward as councillors so that local Government propose individual voter registration, politicians do not also remain pale and male? which I fully support, but will the Government at the same time review the use of postal votes? The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. One of the ways we can do that, of The Deputy Prime Minister: I certainly think that, as course, is by seeking to set an example in this place. I a matter of principle, we should give enough resources freely admit that that is not something my party has to electoral officers to check, in theory, every single been particularly successful in. It is one of the things I postal vote, because it is an area where there has been will be seeking to change as quickly as possible. 171 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 172

T3. [72871] Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) Kingdom, yes or no? Instead, he now seems to be (Lab): Given the open warfare we saw at the Conservative presenting a series of increasingly confusing multiple-choice party conference between Front-Bench spokespeople questions to the Scottish people. He should have the about the Human Rights Act, will the Deputy Prime courage of his convictions and ask the Scottish people Minister use his position to explain the benefits of the as quickly as possible whether they believe in full legislation and put right misinformation? independence, yes or no?

The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady knows, Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): How many fewer the Human Rights Act simply translates into domestic people will be registered to vote as a result of individual law a convention to which—I think everyone agrees—we voter registration? will always remain signatories, so in a sense it prevents British citizens seeking justice in European courts when The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady knows, it can be delivered in British courts. As she knows, the the electoral register currently has about 92% coverage, coalition Government, as set out in the coalition agreement, and we are doing everything we can, through data are committed to setting up a commission, which we matching, the transitional arrangements I have described have established, to look at the case for creating a and some of the debates we have had here on whether British Bill of Rights that will build on and incorporate or not to have opt-outs, to ensure that that level does all existing rights and responsibilities. not decrease significantly. It is a high level of registration compared with similar exercises in other parts of the T5. [72873] Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) democratic world and I hope that we keep those high (Con): How will the Government ensure that the views standards. of local residents are heard loud and clear when local authorities seek planning permission for authorised T8. [72876] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) Gypsy and Traveller sites, as is currently happening in (LD): The economic news from Europe is very Crewe in my constituency? troubling. Will the Deputy Prime Minister set out what he and his Government are doing to ensure that swift The Deputy Prime Minister: As I hope my hon. and decisive action is taken in relation to the eurozone Friend is aware, the Localism Bill gives a raft of new crisis? rights to local communities and local people to make their views known on a whole range of issues, from The Deputy Prime Minister: The Prime Minister, the local planning decisions to increases in council tax. In Chancellor, I and others are of course in constant my view the Bill represents one of the biggest transfers contact with Governments elsewhere—in the eurozone of power not only from Westminster to the town hall, and, indeed, in other parts of the European Union. We but onward from the town hall to all the local communities have been quite clear that it is not our role to seek we represent. somehow to dictate what should happen, other than to say that the solution needs to be developed urgently; to T7. [72875] Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): The Deputy be comprehensive and decisive; to deal with the Greek Prime Minister has conceded that the Defence Secretary’s situation decisively; to create the means by which contagion conduct fell below the standards expected, so why is he can be stopped spreading from Greece to elsewhere in still resisting putting the case to the independent adviser the eurozone; and to create binding rules so that fiscal on Ministers’ interests, which would allow due process disciplines in the eurozone are respected and banks are so that the matter could be properly examined? recapitalised. Further, and something on which Britain could really lead, we should work as 27, not as a The Deputy Prime Minister: As I explained earlier, we fractured European Union, in order to increase have asked the Cabinet Secretary, in a way that is wholly competitiveness and to further liberalisation within the familiar and traditional and, as the right hon. Gentleman single market, because that is the way we will increase knows, was done countless times by previous Governments, the European Union’s welfare in the future. and as has been demanded by his party, to look into this, complete an investigation and produce a report, Mr Speaker: We must now move on. which is exactly what he is now doing. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The country T6. [72874] Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and watched in amazement yesterday afternoon and evening Kincardine) (LD): Does the Deputy Prime Minister as, one by one, apologists for the Secretary of State for agree that prolonged uncertainty over the referendum Defence explained that the ministerial code was not on Scottish independence risks undermining investor written in stone. Indeed, it is not; it is written in black confidence in the Scottish economy? and white, so why are the coalition Government trying to rewrite at least the spirit of the ministerial code, if The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree with my not the letter? hon. Friend. As long as the First Minister plays cat and mouse—I probably should not mention cats—with the The Deputy Prime Minister: We are not. We are very Scottish people, it is extremely confusing for people, clear that the ministerial code—[Interruption.] Iam very unsettling for the business community and I do not very clear, of course, that everybody in this Government think that it does the Scottish economy any good. He should abide by the very highest available standards believes in independence. I think he should have the and by the ministerial code, both the spirit and the courage of his convictions by coming forward and letter, and that is exactly what the Cabinet Secretary has putting that proposition before the Scottish people: been asked to look into and to adjudicate on in his does he want to yank Scotland out of the United report. 173 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 174

T9. [72877] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): In view of registration has been introduced in Northern Ireland. the continued pressures on small businesses in terms of We are seeking to reflect those lessons in the final securing bank lending, will the Deputy Prime Minister legislation, which we will bring forward fairly shortly. join me in urging that any reform of banking structure produces bankers in the sector who fully understand T11. [72879] Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I welcome the needs, requirements and priorities of small my right hon. Friend’s commitment to individual voter businesses? registration. What assurances can he give the House that the change will not have a negative impact on the The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree. The enrolment of students in halls of residence? Traditionally, relationship between our banks and small and medium-sized university landlords have auto-enrolled all residents. businesses is possibly the most important issue for the country’s long-term prosperity, and one of the many The Deputy Prime Minister: One of the virtues of virtues of the Vickers report, which, we have been very individual voter registration—the reason, I assume, why clear, in principle we are going to implement, is precisely the previous Government were keen to introduce it as that it will create a firewall in the banking system, so well—is precisely that there will be an individual that there is a real vocation in the banking industry to responsibility on voters in the future, including students, support traditional customers, such as small and medium- to make sure that they are properly registered. As long sized businesses, in a way that has slightly withered on as we make sure that there is still, as I said there will be, the vine in recent years. face-to-face household canvassing, there is no reason why this experiment and this introduction of individual Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): Does the Deputy voter registration should not lead to an increase in the Prime Minister believe that the Supreme Court should registration of students. continue to have a UK-wide role, even at a time when there are stronger devolved Administrations? Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): How did the Government make the calculation that the new police commissioners The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes. I think that, in should earn £120,000 a year? keeping with all judicial systems in all countries that have a high degree of devolution, as we do, it is right The Deputy Prime Minister: Police commissioners’ that at the apex of the judicial system there should be a pay is still to be finalised, but the key thing is that the highest court, a supreme court, which is able to oversee elections, which will be held next autumn, will give the jurisdiction of all nations of the United Kingdom. people a real sense of accountability over policing in their local areas. T10. [72878] Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): Will my right hon. Friend assure me T12. [72880] Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) that, given the really difficult economic situation that (Con): Will the Deputy Prime Minister assure my the Government inherited and the really difficult constituents that their representations, particularly from economic situation that we are grappling with at home Hempstead and Wigmore, will be fully considered by and abroad, those in the public sector and, particularly, the Boundary Commission for England and that real the private sector who have had high or obscene consideration will be given to preserving community salaries and bonuses will be dealt with so that, in the ties? days ahead, those with the broadest shoulders bear the burden of getting us out of this mess and those with The Deputy Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend will the lowest incomes are best protected? know from the legislation, the boundary commissions will be listening to all representations. They have a fair The Deputy Prime Minister: I certainly agree with my amount of latitude under the legislation to listen to right hon. Friend that all executives and shareholders in representations, including those that relate to community the private sector have to bear in mind the fact hat they links in each and every area. have a wider social responsibility. They are not somehow exempt from social norms, and, at a time when millions Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Does the Deputy and millions of people on low and ordinary incomes are Prime Minister support the release of all unredacted really feeling the strain, it is right that they should and uncensored Government documents relating to the exercise some restraint in how they remunerate themselves. 1989 Hillsborough disaster? It is also why it is so important that we do exactly what this Government are doing, which is to give tax breaks The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, I very much do. It is first to those on low and medium incomes, and not to very important that we get to see all the relevant papers. rush to do so for those on the wealthiest incomes. I pay tribute to the former Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, who did a great deal in the first place Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Will the to create the panel that will receive these papers. The Deputy Prime Minister indicate what discussions have only point that I would make, however, is that it seems been held with the authorities in Northern Ireland, to me that we should allow the families, who are still where there actually now is individual voter registration? grieving their losses from that terrible tragedy, to look If such discussions have been held, what lessons have at those papers first before they are fully published by been learned? the panel.

The Deputy Prime Minister: I understand that there T13. [72882] David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): have been numerous discussions at an official level Sixteen-year-olds are not allowed to buy alcohol, not precisely to learn the lessons of how individual voter allowed to buy cigarettes, not allowed to join the Army 175 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 176 without parental permission, not allowed to serve on the point of use, and based on need, not on the ability the front line even if they have that permission and not to pay. The hon. Gentleman may feel that the NHS is in allowed to get married without parental permission. no need of reform at all; anyone who knows anything Why are all those who wish to lower the voting age about the NHS and realises that it faces increasing costs from 18 to 16 putting about these spurious myths? accepts that it must be reformed, but of course reformed in the right way. The Deputy Prime Minister: This issue clearly divides opinion—within parties, I suspect, as well as across Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Those of us them. I am personally persuaded that, in this day and who favour reform of the upper House are concerned age, if an 18-year-old can vote there is no reason in that there should be no slippage to the timetable. Will principle why a 16-year-old cannot. My hon. Friend has Ministers confirm that the Joint Committee on the marshalled some of the arguments and examples about Draft House of Lords Reform Bill will indeed report by why he would argue the counter-case. The issue is not in the end of February? the coalition agreement; it is not a Government policy as such, and no doubt we will continue to debate it. The Deputy Prime Minister: I am absolutely delighted to see that I have an ally on this issue on the Government Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Given his earlier Benches, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will answers, what does the Deputy Prime Minister think communicate his enthusiasm for reform of the other the independent adviser on ministerial standards is for? place to all those on the Benches behind and on either side of him. The Committee has indeed been asked to The Deputy Prime Minister: The adviser’s duties are report by the end of February next year; that will allow clearly set out. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman us then to present the legislation in a timely way. I very will accept that asking the most senior civil servant in much hope that the Committee will be able to meet that Whitehall to conduct a thorough investigation and produce timeline. a report is something that his previous Government did on numerous occasions and is entirely in keeping with a John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Further to proper response to the very serious concerns that have Question 7, is the Deputy Prime Minister seriously been raised. arguing that the removal of compulsion to register will increase the number of voters in Britain? We all know T14. [72883] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): My that he is not the sharpest tool in the box, but that is a right hon. Friend has spoken about the need for pretty bizarre conclusion. infrastructure investment for economic growth. What is he doing to support investment in green infrastructure The Deputy Prime Minister: I do not know how many and the infrastructure needed to support the high-tech times I need to say this: there is no removal of compulsion. industry? The offence about whether households give information on registration remains on the statute book and will not The Deputy Prime Minister: We are doing a number change. The only concern that has been raised—I know of things. We have retained the previous Government’s that the hon. Gentleman and all his colleagues have capital spending plans; in fact, capital spending will go chosen to misinterpret this utterly—was about the proposed up slightly by the end of this Parliament. We have done opt-out. The Electoral Commission raised concerns much more than that. We have also introduced innovative about that, not about compulsion. I have been very ways in which we can marry public and private capital open in saying that we have listened to those concerns, to invest in our transport, energy and communications we are sympathetic to those concerns, and we will infrastructures—notably the green investment bank, the reflect them in the final legislation. He may choose, if first of its kind anywhere in the world. That will use he wishes, to grab the wrong end of the stick time and £3 billion of public money to leverage in about £15 billion time again; we are trying to do the right thing. of private investment in the green technologies that are absolutely crucial to our economic future.

Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Does the Deputy Prime Minister understand the concern of many ATTORNEY-GENERAL Liberal Democrat Members in the House of Lords and elsewhere who remain dissatisfied with the Health and Social Care Bill? Why is this measure going through The Attorney-General was asked— when there is so much concern, certainly among the public, as well as among his own colleagues in the Magistrates’ Sentencing Powers House of Lords?

The Deputy Prime Minister: We will see how my 1. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): What colleagues in the other place vote. In fact, the more recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of people have looked at the Bill, the more reassured they State for Justice on magistrates’ sentencing powers. are that its purposes are fully in line with many of the [72844] reforms to the health service that the previous Government introduced, with less centralisation, less bureaucracy, The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): I meet more control by clinicians and GPs, and a more patient- the Justice Secretary regularly, when we discuss a range centred health service, all the while enshrining and of criminal justice issues, including magistrates’ sentencing protecting the founding principles of the NHS—free at powers. 177 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 178

Mrs Glindon: It is clear that the Attorney-General who naively got involved in things that they should and the Justice Secretary do not see eye to eye on not have been involved in have been given wholly magistrates’ sentencing powers. Will the Attorney-General disproportionate sentences? clarify whether he disagrees with any other aspects of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders The Attorney-General: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s Bill, which is currently going through Committee, such question, but I repeat what I said to the Justice Committee, as the likely increase in the number of people forced to which is that it is none of my business. It would be represent themselves in family law cases? improper of me to express a view on individual cases and the sentencing done by judges. There are occasions The Attorney-General: To stick to the point that when serious offences come to my office under the arises from the question that was initially asked, I can unduly lenient sentences referral scheme, which may be assure the hon. Lady that there is no difference of view referred to the Court of Appeal. However, that does not between my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord really come into the picture in the matter that the hon. Chancellor and myself on this matter. As she will be Gentleman raises. I have no doubt that how sentences aware, in 2003, the previous Government introduced have been passed in the post-riot period will be the the power for magistrates to increase sentences as part subject of study in due course, as such things usually of custody plus, but were never able to implement it are. As I said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member because, I think, they were concerned about the rise in for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), many cases are still the prison population. There remains an issue of debate coming into the courts. The hon. Gentleman should about the value of increasing those powers. It would bear in mind that there are currently cases before the undoubtedly put more cases into the magistrates courts, Court of Appeal in respect of the riots, and it will but at the same time it would run the risk of increasing doubtless be able to provide some guidelines. the prison population. The problems remain much as they were under the previous Government. My right Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): In his hon. and learned Friend has therefore taken the decision discussions with the Secretary of State for Justice, has that it is best to keep this power in reserve, even though the Attorney-General looked at magistrates using restorative the way it is expressed at the moment is by no means justice as part of their sentencing powers? perfect—it is linked to custody plus in the Criminal Justice Act 2003—and to consult thereafter on whether The Attorney-General: The Lord Chancellor is certainly it could be brought into operation profitably to improve committed to using restorative justice as part of his the working of the criminal justice system or might have programme of reducing reoffending through the to be replaced by a similar provision that was not linked rehabilitation of offenders. Powers are available to or worded in the way that it is at present. magistrates in that area. As my right hon. Friend will appreciate, further changes to the law are a matter for Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Is it correct the Lord Chancellor and his Department, rather than that, on average, magistrates have imposed significantly for me. longer sentences for offences committed in the context of the riots? If it is correct, does my right hon. and Female Genital Mutilation learned Friend welcome that, as I do, and will he confirm that magistrates are absolutely right to take the 2. Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): What representations context in which certain offences are committed into he has received on the updated guidelines issued to consideration when determining sentences? prosecutors by the Crown Prosecution Service on the offence of female genital mutilation. [72845] The Attorney-General: The courts always take the context in which an offence is committed into consideration The Attorney-General: I have received no representations in determining the appropriate sentence. Few people regarding the new legal guidance on female genital would disagree with the principle that it is a serious mutilation published by the Crown Prosecution Service aggravating feature if an offence is committed in the on 7 September 2011. midst of riotous assembly and general mayhem. As usual, if for any reason the courts have passed a sentence Jane Ellison: It is well known that European countries that is excessive or inappropriate in any way, it can be such as France and Sweden have brought successful reviewed by the Court of Appeal. I am afraid that I prosecutions on this matter, but it may surprise the cannot help my hon. Friend on the precise statistics. House that many African countries such as Liberia, Quite apart from anything else, many cases are still Ghana, Kenya and Burkina Faso have also brought coming into the courts in respect of behaviour and such prosecutions. However, in the 25 years since the crime committed during the riots, and it is far too early UK legislated on this matter, we have brought no to make a final assessment. prosecutions for this terrible crime. Does the Attorney- General feel that the new guidelines will bring that Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The Attorney- possibility closer, and will he urge prosecutors to use the General assured the Justice Committee that he had expertise built up in child sexual abuse cases to bring given no guidance whatever to judges or magistrates on prosecutions closer? sentencing policy after the riots. Nevertheless, is he not concerned about the apparently disproportionate sentences The Attorney-General: As I am sure my hon. Friend that have been handed down to a lot of young people, will understand, the Crown Prosecution Service has which may of course be changed on appeal? Is he cases referred to it by the police, and if cases of female prepared to undertake a study so that we can see what genital mutilation are referred, I can absolutely assure has happened and find out how many young people her that every effort will be made to prosecute them 179 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 180 successfully if the evidential base on which to proceed is prosecute cases of domestic and overseas corruption. present. I understand that, in 2010-1, only one case was Given those concerns, has the SFO been able to brief considered for prosecution by the CPS, and it resulted the Attorney-General on the case of 3M v. Boulter in in no further action being taken because it did not meet Washington, which is a case of blackmail that allegedly the evidential criteria. involves the attempted dishonest settlement of a dispute I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that if we are to between an American company and a subsidiary of the prosecute such cases successfully, we need to create a Ministry of Defence? Some may be aware that the case climate in which victims can come forward. Of course, has arisen of a meeting at the five-star Shangri-La hotel in many cases people will have become victims when in Dubai between Porton Capital’s chief executive Harvey very young, and that is one problem that besets the Boulter, the Secretary of State for Defence and the matter. I simply say, finally, that the fact that there have latter’s friend Adam Werritty, at which it has been not been prosecutions does not necessarily mean that alleged that there was a conversation about $30 million the legislation is not succeeding at least in providing and the taking away of a knighthood. Will the Attorney- some deterrent effect on individuals engaging in this General assure the House that the advice that he receives, appalling behaviour. and the action that is to be taken, will not be affected by cuts to the prosecuting departments? Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I strongly support the thrust of the questions asked by the hon. Member The Attorney-General: May I first welcome the hon. for Battersea (Jane Ellison). Would it not perhaps be Lady to her new post? I look forward to many opportunities sensible to monitor unexplained absences from school to debate matters with her, and I congratulate her on among young girls from certain communities, to try to her appointment. So far as the matter that she has build up some evidence to pursue prosecutions? raised is concerned, I simply make a couple of points. The SFO will examine cases that are referred to it, and The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman makes a as she will be aware, in any case that might have any very good point. I certainly know anecdotally, and degree of political sensitivity, by convention, proper indeed from visits to a school in my constituency, of steps are taken to ensure that the Law Officers’ role is concerns being expressed by teachers about the absence kept to a minimum. of pupils who appeared to have been sent abroad. In that context his idea is very sensible, but as he will Domestic and Sexual Violence appreciate, it will require co-ordination. The Crown Prosecution Service will not be able to do it on its own. 5. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the Director of Crown Prosecution Service (Staffing Costs) Public Prosecutions on the prosecution of cases involving allegations of domestic or sexual violence. 4. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What [72848] proportion of savings to be made by the Crown Prosecution Service over the comprehensive spending review period The Attorney-General: I have not had a recent discussion will be made through a reduction in staffing costs. with the Director of Public Prosecutions in relation to [72847] domestic and sexual violence. However, I support the continuing work of the Crown Prosecution Service to The Attorney-General: A reduction in staffing costs improve prosecutions in that area and to support victims will account for an estimated 60% of the total savings to of crime. be made by the Crown Prosecution Service over the spending review period. Kate Green: Last month, I met Change, a user-led organisation of people with learning disabilities, which Jessica Morden: Given that the CPS’s own submission highlighted the extent of domestic abuse against people to the spending review said that a 25% budget cut would with learning disabilities. Will the Attorney-General tell bring considerable risk to service delivery, what steps is me what steps the Government are taking to ensure that the Attorney-General taking to ensure that Government such victims are properly catered for in criminal proceedings, cuts do not damage its ability to prosecute crime? and what discussions he is having with colleagues across the Government to ensure that such vulnerable victims The Attorney-General: When these savings were first are properly looked after? outlined, the Director of Public Prosecutions and I gave very careful consideration to whether they could be The Attorney-General: The hon. Lady is right to achieved without reducing front-line services. As the highlight this matter. A great deal is done by the CPS in hon. Lady will be aware, the plans centre principally on multi-agency working at a national level to try to ensure reductions in staff numbers at headquarters, recruitment that there is good support for victims who come forward freezes and the streamlining of services, particularly in such a setting. If the hon. Lady wishes for me to write savings in IT services and elsewhere. For that reason, to her with further details on the specific instances that the CPS and the DPP remain of the view that it is she raises, I will be most happy to do so. However, from possible to implement the budget reductions without my discussions with the Director of Public Prosecutions, affecting front-line services. I have been left with a sense of confidence that there is a full understanding of the difficulties raised by such Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) cases, that the CPS will do its utmost to ensure that (Lab): The concerns about the cuts to the capability of justice is done and that prosecutions are brought wherever the CPS are matched by concerns about the capacity of possible, and that the victim is supported during the the Serious Fraud Office, whose job is to investigate and process. 181 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 182

Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): Michael Connarty: I read with interest the CPS report One in four girls are hit by their boyfriends—some are on prosecuting human trafficking cases, and I cannot as young as 14 and 13. What action will the Attorney- understand how the Minister can say that the matter is General take to deal with that? not within his remit, because it quite clearly talks about vulnerable children, the need for adequate support and The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend highlights an safeguarding? It is difficult to get prosecutions if those area of undoubted concern—violent behaviour by younger children flee, and we do not know how many are in care teenagers—but as she will appreciate, that is first a or how many are missing. Surely the obvious thing to matter for the police. Secondly, if such cases come to do would be to have a scheme of guardianship, in which the attention of the CPS, consideration must be given as the children are looked after individually. They could to whether it is in the public interest to prosecute. Each then be supported through the process of going to case will turn on its own facts, and prosecutorial discretion court, so that we can get prosecutions for this heinous may have to be exercised in such circumstances. crime. That said, if my hon. Friend feels that that is a growing difficulty, the multi-agency approach that we The Attorney-General: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s were talking about in a different setting a moment ago point, and for the reasons that I gave in answer to the will probably be the only way to tackle it. At the end of hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), I can see that it the day, prosecutors can take only one of two decisions—to has considerable force, but I do not think that it is the prosecute or not—but prevention must come from other specific responsibility of the CPS to deliver on this. It agencies. would require work with other agencies to achieve it and, for those reasons, it is something that I am happy to see taken forward, but it is not something that the Human Trafficking CPS on its own can deliver.

6. Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): What recent discussions Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Attorney- he has had with the Director of Public Prosecutions on General is right that the issue of guardianship is for the prosecution of cases involving allegations of human other parts of the Government. However, he is responsible trafficking or slavery. [72849] for sentencing. The Government, in their human trafficking strategy, promised a review by December. Will he update 7. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) us on how that review is going and congratulate the (Lab): What plans he has to increase prosecutions of Prime Minister on marking anti-slavery day by having a those involved in human trafficking. [72851] reception in Downing street on 19 October?

The Attorney-General: I have had no recent discussions The Attorney-General: I join my hon. Friend in with the Director of Public Prosecutions on the prosecution congratulating the Prime Minister on properly of cases involving human trafficking or slavery. However, commemorating anti-slavery day. I am afraid, however, the Crown Prosecution Service is working with law that I am not in a position to give my hon. Friend an enforcement agencies and others, both in the UK and in update. There is a timetable for this report to come out. source countries, to improve the investigation and If I have any further information on the matter, I shall prosecution of those involved in human trafficking. write to him. The CPS is also encouraging victims of human trafficking to support criminal proceedings. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Human trafficking is a crime that crosses borders. What discussions have Lisa Nandy: Having worked with the remarkable been held with Europol and Eurojust to try and catch children caught up in this appalling trade over many the real perpetrators of this terrible crime? years, I can tell the Minister that the most effective way to increase the number of prosecutions is to provide The Attorney-General: I know that there are frequent support for victims. Will he mark anti-slavery day by discussions between police services and the CPS and its announcing a formal system of child guardianship, so counterparts about co-operation. As the right hon. that we no longer have the appalling spectacle of children Gentleman will be aware, the EU directive on human as young as five having to instruct their own lawyers, trafficking is designed to provide a measure of co-ordination simply because there is no one else to do so? in this area. I have to say again to him that I would be happy to arrange a briefing for him from either the The Attorney-General: The specific matter that the police or the CPS, if that would be of assistance to him hon. Lady raises is, I am afraid, outside my immediate in understanding the details of how that work is carried remit in terms of my responsibilities for the CPS. As she out. However, I am confident from what I know of the will be aware, the Government announced the decision work being done that a high level of co-operation is to opt in to the EU directive on human trafficking in achieved with our partner countries. March 2011. We are now working closely with the Commission on its implementation, which includes the Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The original question review of our domestic legislation to ensure that it was about how the Attorney-General will increase the complies with the provisions, and that it does not inhibit number of prosecutions. According to an answer that I our ability to bring successful prosecutions. The received not long ago, there have been only six prosecutions Government, the CPS and I will continue to give human for holding someone in slavery since the introduction of trafficking a high priority. For those reasons, I hope that specific offence 17 months ago. What will he do to that the hon. Lady’s point will be given consideration at increase the number of successful prosecutions for holding the same time. people in servitude? 183 Oral Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 184

The Attorney-General: There has been at least one Tom Blenkinsop: Will the Attorney-General clarify reference by my office to the Court of Appeal of an whether he and the CPS were consulted before the unduly lenient sentence in which that sentence has been announcement of the FSS closure? If so, what was his increased. In addition, I think that the CPS acknowledges response and that of the CPS? that trafficking for forced labour is a particularly difficult area in which to get people to come forward and give evidence. The CPS will therefore continue to work with The Attorney-General: Yes, we were consulted, and other agencies, including the police, to try to provide an our response was that, on the basis of our understanding environment in which that can better happen. of how the closure was to be carried out, the Director of Public Prosecutions was satisfied that the quality of Forensic Science Service forensic science available to the CPS would be maintained.

8. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): with the Secretary of State for the Home Department You were given duff information. on the effect on prosecutions of the closure of the Forensic Science Service. [72852] The Attorney-General: In view of that intervention, I would simply add that the current position is that the The Attorney-General: I have met the Under-Secretary closure process has been monitored and the DPP remains of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the satisfied at present that in no case has the closure of the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), FSS had any impact on his ability to carry out prosecutions who has responsibility for crime and security, twice within the CPS. since April 2011 to discuss issues and progress around the closure of the Forensic Science Service. Furthermore, representatives from my office and the CPS attend Mr Speaker: I am immensely grateful to the Attorney- regular Home Office-led FSS transition board meetings General, whom no one could ever accuse of excluding and participate in key groups leading the FSS closure from his comprehensive answers any fact that he judges process. to be material. We are most grateful to him. 185 11 OCTOBER 2011 Weightman Report (Fukushima) 186

Weightman Report (Fukushima) about the reason for the rush from nuclear throughout the world, which is cost. That is the reason that Germany, 3.35 pm Italy, Switzerland, Malaysia and Thailand have moved away from it, and the reason that companies such as Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab) (Urgent Question): Siemens have pulled out and that RWE is probably To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate going to do so. Change if he will make a statement on the implications I am afraid that, from the start of the disaster, the for the United Kingdom of the Fukushima disaster. Government have decided to cover up and to conceal, but the evidence is there. The Guardian published internal The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change e-mails from Government Departments that showed (Chris Huhne): Safety is always our No. 1 concern, and that the Business and Energy Departments worked we clearly needed to understand the facts before making closely behind the scenes with the multinational any decisions. That is why I asked the UK’s chief corporations, EDF, Areva and Westinghouse, to try to nuclear inspector, Dr Mike Weightman, to look at what ensure that the accident did not derail their plans for a Fukushima means for nuclear energy in Britain and at new generation of nuclear stations in Britain. This is a what lessons can be learned. Today, I have presented his quite disgraceful, scandalous collusion between the final report to Parliament. Government and those companies, which have a commercial I have not forbidden Dr Weightman, the UK’s chief interest in making large sums of money out of nuclear nuclear inspector, to do anything. When I asked for a power. report on the lessons that could be learned from the events at Fukushima, I made it clear that he could Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently remind the hon. determine, in his independent role, the scope of the Gentleman, lest he forget, that he is asking a question? report as he saw fit. Dr Weightman’s final report sets out a number of conclusions and recommendations Paul Flynn: I would like the Secretary of State to that identify various matters that should be reviewed by comment on the veracity of this claim. The e-mails said the Government, the regulator and the industry, to that the scandal of the accident had consider whether further improvements could be made “the potential to set the nuclear industry back globally.” to the safety of the UK nuclear industry. As part of the regulatory regime, the industry is already legally bound They went on to say: regularly to review the safety of its facilities and to “We need to ensure the anti-nuclear chaps and chapesses do make reasonably practical improvements if gaps are not gain ground on this.” found. Any additional costs resulting from these reviews, Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this is a including as a result of the chief nuclear inspector’s legitimate way for the Government to behave? They report, are a matter for site operators. The initial report have ignored the costs, which is the real reason why made it clear that the current regulatory safety framework nuclear should come to an end. in the UK is satisfactory, and Dr Weightman continues I remind the right hon. Gentleman of this statement: to see no reason to curtail the operation of nuclear “Nuclear is a tried, tested and failed technology and the power plants or other nuclear facilities here in the UK. government must stop putting time, effort and subsidies into this He believes that the industry has reacted responsibly outdated industry.” and appropriately, displaying strong leadership for safety That is a quote with the Secretary of State’s fingerprints and safety culture. indelibly on it, and it was still there on his website this The final report restates Dr Weightman’s interim morning. He made another statement: conclusions and recommendations. It also concludes “Nuclear power is too expensive, too costly and we should not that the UK practice of periodic safety reviews of go down that road.” licensed sites provides a robust means of ensuring That was before he was bewitched by the pied piper of continuous improvement in line with advances in technology nuclear power, when he was free to think and to tell the and standards. It emphasises the need to continue the whole truth before his mouth was bandaged by the seals Sellafield pond and silo clean-up with the utmost vigour of his ministerial office. The country needs advice on and determination, and it reassures us that nuclear can the way forward and it needs consideration of the full go on being a part of the low-carbon energy mix in the implications, principally the cost that is making nuclear UK. Dr Weightman confirms the advice that he gave at power unaffordable and uninsurable throughout the the time of the interim report. He saw no reason to planet. We are not getting that. We should ask the revise the strategic advice for the nuclear national policy Government to do their full job and present us with a statement or any need to change the present siting report that is comprehensive and full. strategies for new nuclear power stations in the UK.

Paul Flynn: That was a very bad start. I do not know Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, whether the right hon. Gentleman was present at a but the House and the nation now need an answer. seminar organised by the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology in the summer, at which Dr Weightman Chris Huhne: All I can say is that I am delighted; I was asked whether he was allowed to consider costs. He could not expect anything less from the hon. Gentleman, said no, his remit was not to consider costs, so I believe who is a member of the Gorsedd of Bards: what he that the Secretary of State is entirely mistaken in what lacks in facts, he is able to make up for in poetry and he has said here. We have in the report a statement of rhetoric. Let me a deal with a couple of his key points. the fairly obvious—namely, that this country is not I believe that the e-mail exchange reported in The going to have the kind of tsunamis and earthquakes Guardian, to which the hon. Gentleman drew attention that they have in Japan. It does not contain a word and quoted, came from an official in the Department 187 Weightman Report (Fukushima)11 OCTOBER 2011 Weightman Report (Fukushima) 188 for Business, Innovation and Skills rather than from the UK, may I ask the Secretary of State what he is doing Department of Energy and Climate Change. No, I do to ensure that the Government give investors the support not approve at all of the tenor of those remarks; nor are and confidence that they need to deliver the construction they the tenor of the policy making we conduct in of new capacity in the nuclear industry on time and on DECC. We are very clear that safety is absolutely the budget? No. 1 concern. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we made a clear provision in the coalition agreement Chris Huhne: I congratulate the right hon. Lady on that nuclear power could go ahead, providing that there her first outing in her new role. She was right to say that is no public subsidy and providing investors are prepared the events in Japan are ongoing, but we feel—and Mike to do that. That is exactly what is going on. Weightman certainly feels—that the circumstances are I think the hon. Gentleman misinterprets what clear enough to render it unlikely that any substantial Dr Weightman said about the issue of costs. The situation new information will necessitate a change in the is exactly as I said. Dr Weightman could have looked at recommendations. However, one thing that emerges costs had he wanted to; the reality is that he, quite from the review is the fact that the culture of nuclear rightly as the chief nuclear inspector charged with safety, regulation in the UK is, appropriately, one of continuous takes the view that safety comes first—regardless of the improvement. If new facts come to light, we shall be cost issues. That is why he has come up with a report able to take them on board and improve the regulatory that does not look into whether the measures he puts environment. forward will or will not have excessive costs. That is for Dr Weightman certainly feels that he was given enough the potential operators to judge, not for Dr Weightman, time in which to complete the report, but had he wanted and the operators will do so. more time it would have been available to him. I was Let me end my response to the hon. Gentleman by particularly pleased that his expertise—of which the right pointing out that a published study, commissioned from hon. Lady will know, as he was appointed by the last Arup, available on the DECC website, puts the costs of Government to inquire into the Potters Bar rail disaster—his nuclear at £71 per megawatt-hour in comparison with independence and his impartiality were recognised by the lowest marginal cost at the moment, which would be the international community when he was appointed by a gas plant operating at £77 per megawatt-hour. Although the International Atomic Energy Authority to conduct he is absolutely right that stringent safety measures its review of the lessons of Fukushima. He has been might add to costs, the other factor that needs to be running that operation in parallel with this. taken into account is that precisely because some other I think we can be confident that we have an extremely countries have not gone through the same process as we solid piece of work here, and that the lessons are have—of assessing the facts and attempting to base our genuinely being learned. Dr Weightman—who is, after policy on the evidence—they have pulled out of new all, the chief nuclear inspector—had all the access that nuclear construction. The result of that is that demand he needed not just to the reactors, but to all the UK for new nuclear power stations has fallen. Normally, sites. In this final report, he deals with some of the according to my basic economics, when demand falls lessons that may emerge from the silo and pond issues and supply stays the same, the price goes down, not up. at Sellafield. The ministerial team is seized of the need to deal with those important issues, and to make certain Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): I join the Secretary that no resource constraint prevents us from acting as of State in thanking Dr Weightman for preparing the quickly as possible to ensure the proper security of the report, and thank the Secretary of State for allowing sites. early sight of it. The right hon. Lady asked about the speed of nuclear The terrible events in Japan earlier this year reminded projects. Some delay will inevitably have been introduced us that the Government must ensure that our regulatory into the process because of the lessons of Fukushima, regime in the nuclear industry is robust, and that there but we are confident that all the key elements of the can be no compromises on safety. In that light, the process that we, as a Government, need to undertake to Government were entirely right to ask the Office for get things going have been undertaken. We have produced Nuclear Regulation to examine the events in Japan and national nuclear policy statements, discussions continue their implications for the United Kingdom. between the operators and the regulator on the generic I welcome the recommendations in today’s report, design assessment, and we have put through the regulatory which will of course need to be closely examined, but justification. I understand that, either today or yesterday, given that the situation in Japan is clearly still ongoing, planning permission was requested for the first new will the Secretary of State tell us what further monitoring reactor at Hinkley Point, which is due to be completed he has planned? Will he also clarify two points? Can he at the end of the decade. I believe that investors in confirm first that Dr Weightman was satisfied with the nuclear power are content that we are moving as rapidly amount of time that he was given in which to prepare as we could expect to move. the report, and secondly that he had enough access to UK sites to inform his recommendations? Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): Given that the estimated In our view, nothing in the report calls into question cost of the clean-up of existing nuclear waste is £100 billion, the importance of a continued role for nuclear power as that the national policy statement said nuclear power part of a more sustainable future energy mix. Given the was not risk-free, and that the European cap on insurance concern expressed in recent days about the Government’s is £1.6 billion, whereas the cost of the Japanese disaster commitment to tackling climate change, along with the is estimated at over £60 billion, will the Secretary of worrying news of Scottish and Southern Energy’s decision State confirm that cost will be a factor in decisions on to pull out of a nuclear project in Cumbria and speculation nuclear power in the future and that nuclear power will about the future of RWE’s nuclear programme in the remain an option of last resort? 189 Weightman Report (Fukushima)11 OCTOBER 2011 Weightman Report (Fukushima) 190

Chris Huhne: I certainly will not say that nuclear Several hon. Members rose— power is an option of last resort; the electricity market reform clearly anticipates that it can be part of the Mr Speaker: Order. Many Members are seeking to portfolio of low-carbon electricity generation, which catch my eye, but I am afraid that I will be able to call all could include renewables, nuclear or clean coal and gas. of them only if we have substantially briefer questions It is precisely because of the uncertainties that attach to and answers. all forms of electricity generation, and, indeed, the fact that all forms of electricity generation—whether onshore Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): While my wind turbines, nuclear power or a new power station—seem constituents in Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington will to carry with them a little cloud of people who happen have every sympathy for all those affected by the earthquake to dislike them, that we need a portfolio to deal with and tsunami in Japan, they will equally want to be both the technological risks and the economic uncertainties. reassured that when they flick the light switch the lights actually come on. Can the Secretary of State therefore The hon. Gentleman also asked about the issue of reassure them that nothing in this report will make that the cap, and I would merely caution him not to confuse any less likely than it was before the Fukushima incident? two things: the third-party liability, which is dealt with under the Brussels and Paris conventions, and the total Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right cost of dealing with the Fukushima disaster—the figure to point that out, and a key issue for our ministerial he cited is one of the more extreme estimates. We had a team and the Department is ensuring that the lights stay consultation that ended in the spring, and we are looking on. A quarter of our power plants are due for retirement at issues to do with raising the limit on the third-party in the next 10 years, and we need to replace all of those. liability. Those discussions are ongoing, and we will Almost all our existing nuclear plants will come offline make an announcement in due course. by 2023, as will a substantial amount of fossil fuel plants, and we are determined to ensure that the lights Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab): I thank the stay on. Secretary of State for delivering what was a perfectly rational statement based on the report by Dr Weightman, Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I find it but will he reflect on the fact that political leaderships in shocking that the Secretary of State has had to be many parts of the world are now putting tackling dragged here by the urgent question asked by the hon. climate change ever lower down the agendas that count, Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), but I am glad and does he agree that it is therefore very important that that he is here because I want to ask him about flooding. Britain goes ahead with the civil nuclear programme, The ONR’s interim report stated that there is potential not only for reasons of energy security, but to confirm for flooding to occur in the near vicinity of nuclear sites and it went on to say, crucially, that that risk is unknown that we are absolutely determined to hit our CO2 reduction targets—which were, of course, agreed by this Parliament? because “the detailed specific likelihood and consequences of flooding have not been assessed” Chris Huhne: The right hon. Gentleman is one of the by the regulators. The final report concludes: most expert and experienced Members in this field and “Flooding risks are unlikely to prevent construction of new he is absolutely right and I entirely agree with the nuclear power stations”. sentiments he has expressed. I am not sure whether I would go along with his view that people are resiling How can the Minister be so sure that there is no risk from action on carbon emissions, however. One of the from flooding, given that the ONR has said that it has striking aspects of public opinion as shown in the not had the ability to check that? recent European Commission Eurobarometer results is Chris Huhne: The hon. Lady is quite wrong to suggest that there has been hardly any change in this country or that I have been dragged here; I am very happy to talk anywhere else in the proportion of people who are on this subject at any time but, unfortunately, we know seriously concerned about climate change. Indeed, the that there are other matters with which the House has last Eurobarometer survey was undertaken in June and to deal. Let me address the key point on flooding, more people in this country were concerned about this which was a question that I specifically asked Dr Weightman issue than about the economic situation, which I found at the beginning of the process. We will not have seismic surprising as that tends to take precedence over other events like those in Japan; the biggest seismic event in things when we are in difficult times. the UK took place in 1931 on Dogger bank, and I The other point the right hon. Gentleman should believe that the Japanese earthquake was 35,000 times bear in mind is that the entire low-carbon shift—the as strong. However, this country does have natural transition to a low-carbon economy—offers enormous cataclysms. We know, from the flash flooding that has potential growth opportunities. That is the case in terms sometimes occurred at the top of hills when drains have of not only nuclear, but also renewables, clean coal and been overwhelmed, that we can get a flood risk. That is gas, and energy saving. They are the four key pillars of precisely why I asked Dr Weightman to examine this the Government’s policy. We are already seeing substantial matter. There is flood risk from storm surges and flash demand effects and job effects from the investment floods. That is taken into account in the system and we being made in those areas. For example, just in terms of are dealing with it site by site to ensure that these sites the three supply-side elements of energy policy, Ofgem can continue to operate with satisfactory back-up systems has estimated spending at £200 billion over 10 years, regardless of the events. which is roughly double the normal amount of energy investment in a business cycle. That is an important Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The Secretary of State will reason why we are likely to have support for the recovery of course be aware that there was a tsunami in Somerset going forward. on 29 January 1607 and countless thousands of people 191 Weightman Report (Fukushima)11 OCTOBER 2011 Weightman Report (Fukushima) 192 lost their lives. He has referred to the fact that the Mr Speaker: It is always a great pleasure to listen to Hinkley Point application has been received. I understand the Secretary of State, but may I gently remind him of that it is a 95,000-page application, with 50,000 pages of the merits of the abridged rather than the “War and supporting documentation. How are local people and Peace” version? the statutory authorities that are meant to consider that information supposed to be able to do that with any Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Although it sense of fairness? is interesting to listen to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) describe the tsunami as a “scandal”, Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State confirm question. There is indeed reporting of a storm surge of three points? First—this bears repetition—we do not sit substantial magnitude in 1607—the hon. Member for atop a seismic fault; secondly, we do not stack five Newport West (Paul Flynn) has raised this in the past. nuclear reactors in a row; and thirdly, we use a different Fortunately, this is not quite as common an event in this cooling mechanism. Those are three reasons why, although country as it is in Japan, as one can gather from our we should not be complacent about our nuclear energy having to go that far back in the historical record. We strategy, we should be confident that we have one of the can count our lucky stars that we do not have the best records in the world. seismically challenged environment that the Japanese do. All I can say to her on the planning process is that it Chris Huhne: Bearing in mind your injunction, is completely transparent and open. If local people Mr Speaker, I can confirm all those points. want advice from a number of different sources, they Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I very much welcome will obviously be able to go to those sources. There will the Weightman report, and also the interim report be absolutely no shortage of legal or other expertise delivered before the House went into recess. The British available to them to do that. I am confident that they nuclear industry has an excellent safety record, and the will be able to understand the purport of the application report confirms that. Will the Secretary of State ensure for planning permission that has been made. that potential developers for future nuclear builds make Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I welcome the the findings of the Weightman report available, so that Weightman report. The Secretary of State will know, communities and constituents such as mine can make however, that two key issues arise out of events at an informed choice based on the facts, not on fear and Fukushima, one of which is the hike in the price of gas, ideology? as a result of Germany’s approach and the decision Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right— taken in Japan to evacuate the nuclear space. What is he and better than that, the report is available on the doing about the knock-on effect that that will have on Department of Energy and Climate Change website for fuel poverty in this country and about the way in which any of his constituents who want to access it. the European carbon emissions reductions targets are going to be much more difficult to meet, given that Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I thank the Germany and other countries will be investing in gas Secretary of State for his role in commissioning this rather than nuclear? What discussions has he had at a largely reassuring report. For the avoidance of doubt, European level? will he explain to the House what the effect would be on the Government’s efforts to reduce carbon emissions in Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman asks about the gas the generation of electricity were we to exclude nuclear price, and he is absolutely right: if my memory serves from our collection of generating units? me, outside the United States the gas price is up by about 27% over last year. One of the biggest debates in Chris Huhne: It is not easy to forecast the future, and this area is what will happen to the gas price. We have we have taken the portfolio approach to different sources clear demand pull factors from growth in the far east of energy precisely because we might be living in a low and the fact that a number of countries are moving gas price world or a high gas price world, and we need a away from nuclear towards gas. On the other side, we basket of technologies that allows us to exploit the most also have a substantial amount of new unconventional affordable low-carbon option for British consumers in gas resources being discovered—not least among them the future. In a low gas price world, clean gas could be those announced by Cuadrilla in the north-west of the cheapest way of providing electricity, but in a high England, where the company thought it had discovered gas price world, the cheapest way could well be nuclear. a substantial amount of new unconventional gas. The In such circumstances, there would clearly be an increase balance between those factors is not at all clear, and in cost. that is one reason why it is so important that we have a Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I welcome today’s portfolio of technologies—clean coal and gas through ministerial statement, and add my support for a nuclear carbon capture and storage, nuclear and renewables—to strategy for the whole United Kingdom. Will the Secretary enable us to exploit them all. of State confirm that the international regulators who On fuel poverty, the first key point is that we have were contacted included those in France and Germany, made the warm homes discount statutory rather than which are strong supporters of nuclear power, and that voluntary and increased the amount of resources available those countries are satisfied with the outcome of the to it by two thirds compared with what was being paid Weightman report on Fukushima? by the previous Government. The Warm Front scheme is gradually being phased out because we are phasing in Chris Huhne: Those countries will not have seen the the green deal next year, and a substantial element of it Weightman report as yet, as it was only published will tackle fuel poverty. I believe it will make a big today, but Dr Weightman is regarded very highly in the difference, precisely because it will tackle the root causes international community, which is one reason why he of fuel poverty rather than merely putting a sticking was chosen by the IAEA. I am confident that the report plaster on the symptoms. will have a substantial impact. 193 Weightman Report (Fukushima)11 OCTOBER 2011 Weightman Report (Fukushima) 194

Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): Chris Huhne: It is crucial that we have qualified We should never forget the fact that thousands of people for the new nuclear programme and for maintaining Japanese families are still grieving for the loss of their our existing nuclear fleet, which is still responsible for loved ones as a result of this incident—not the nuclear 18% of our electricity generation. That is one reason issue, but the natural disaster. Will the Secretary of why my esteemed colleague the Minister of State, my State send our thanks to Mike Weightman and Professor hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), Sir John Beddington for their work in reassuring the has been ensuring, with our colleagues in the Department British public about this matter, and will he confirm for Business, Innovation and Skills, that the training that, unlike with the smoke and mirrors in other programmes and nuclear academy are there, and that Departments, there will be no cuts in scientific investment there is a future generation able to continue the tradition in his Department, which will carry on researching of engineering expertise in the nuclear industry. these important fields? Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Chris Huhne: I can certainly, and happily, join the Clearly, we would all welcome the clean bill of health hon. Gentleman in thanking both Mike Weightman for the principle of nuclear operations, but have Scottish and Sir John Beddington. They have both performed a Executive Ministers been in contact to object either to very useful role in making sure that our debate is based the methodology used by Dr Weightman or to his on the facts and does not run to conclusions not supported conclusions, and have they objected to the continued by the evidence. All Departments have had to take operation of Hunterston and Torness power stations? reductions in their budget because of our inheritance when we took office. We have had to prioritise, and I am Chris Huhne: I have interesting and continuing discussions afraid that the scientific area is the same as everywhere with Scottish Ministers and with the First Minister—who, else in that respect. But I am confident that we are able as we all know, when he was doing another job was one to go ahead with the key issues that are important to the of Britain’s most distinguished energy economists: he Department precisely because we have focused on what used to work for the Royal Bank of Scotland. He we believe those to be. certainly is very interested in all these subjects. I do not Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I thank believe that those two power stations have been raised the Secretary of State for his statement. My constituents in those discussions, but I have certainly been informed on the east coast of Northern Ireland have a particular in no uncertain terms by the Government north of the concern about the decommissioning of nuclear plants border that they have no intention of allowing new because of the historic legacy of Sellafield and the nuclear power stations to be built in Scotland. cumulative effect of the indiscriminate discharges of radioactive waste over many years. They will seriously Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Fukushima want to know why the right hon. Gentleman feels that was an horrendous human disaster owing to the failure the future nuclear programme will not suffer from the same of effective flood risk management, with the wave three problems as occurred in the past, in terms of the cost times the height of the flood defences. Will the Secretary and of environmental safety, associated with the of State therefore give an undertaking to ensure that, in decommissioning of nuclear plants. view of climate change, the flood defences in Britain are estimated on the basis of a one-in-400-years event—and Chris Huhne: The hon. Lady asks an important and also think again about the fact that he is cutting the interesting question, because I am determined that on projected budgets for flood defences? Will he also confirm the new nuclear programme we should be as open as we that the costs involved will be published alongside the can be about all the considerations. Anybody looking at increased cost, given that nuclear energy supplies from our past historic nuclear programme would have to be Germany will be curtailed because the business there is shocked. The hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) being closed down. has already mentioned the £100 billion cost of potential liabilities. On an ongoing basis, that means that literally Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman raises the point 55% of the Department’s budget this year is being spent that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline on nuclear clean-up. Perhaps it should be called not the Lucas) raised about the adequacy of our flood defences, Department of Energy and Climate Change, but the which is something I am keen to ensure. I can assure Department for nuclear and coal clean-up, energy and him that the flood defences for nuclear power plants, climate change. That percentage goes up to two thirds and indeed for our critical electricity infrastructure, are next year, so the ministerial team is acutely aware of the not under the same budget as the budget to which he importance of ensuring that this never happens again. refers, and that we will continue to ensure that they are There are various reasons for that. I would be trespassing proof against extreme weather events. on Mr Speaker’s ruling were I to go on at greater length, but I will be giving a lecture on this matter to the Royal Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Nobody wants Society on Thursday, and we will try to arrange an a nuclear accident; nobody wants a nuclear disaster. invitation to that for the hon. Lady. Nobody wanted Windscale, Three Mile Island or Mr Speaker: The advance notice from the Secretary Chernobyl. Nobody wanted Fukushima, and our hearts of State is greatly appreciated, and we thank him for go out to the people who are still suffering as a result of that. it, and will suffer for a long time to come. Is the inescapable truth not that a nuclear power generation Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Is system carries with it the most terrible danger, however the Secretary of State satisfied that there are no challenges remote, of a disaster from which it would be very hard to future nuclear safety caused by a lack of suitably to recover, and that it produces nuclear waste, a problem qualified UK engineers? than cannot be solved, only stored? Does the Secretary 195 Weightman Report (Fukushima) 11 OCTOBER 2011 196 of State not think that we are heading in the wrong Points of Order direction by continuing a nuclear programme, and that we should learn from what Germany and other countries 4.12 pm are doing by using renewables to a greater extent, and by conserving energy and using less of it? Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In response to a question I asked earlier Chris Huhne: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman this afternoon about provisions relating to individual about the importance of using less energy.The Government voter registration, the Deputy Prime Minister said that are very proud of the fact that we are four-square there had been no change from the current position in behind a real emphasis on saving energy, which is one of relation to the civic duty. However, the individual electoral the four key supports for our energy policy. That can be registration White Paper, published on 30 June, stated seen in the Energy Bill, which I hope is about to receive quite clearly on page 20, paragraph 63: Royal Assent, and will be seen in the green deal next “It is currently an offence to fail to comply with a request for year. However, I disagree with what he says about information from an ERO, or to give false information to an nuclear power. Unfortunately, there are no energy sources ERO…While we strongly encourage people to register to vote the to speak of without potential risks, downsides and Government believes the act is one of personal choice and as such detractors, whether we are talking about gas or coal. A there should be no compulsion placed on an individual to make substantial number of people worldwide are still killed an application to register to vote.” mining coal every year—far more than have ever been It goes on to say that from 2014, killed as a result of nuclear energy—and there are “it will therefore be a personal choice whether to respond to the substantial environmental consequences in parts of the ERO’s request to complete an IER application form.” world that do not apply such high standards for emissions I appreciate that the Deputy Prime Minister is a very from coal burning as we do in Europe. busy man, but it is quite clear from his answers that he either does not understand his own policy, or has Mr Speaker: I thank the Secretary of State and inadvertently misled the House and caused huge confusion. colleagues. The Government’s proposals mean that those who fail to respond to a household enquiry can be prosecuted, but not those who choose to return an individual application form, thereby diminishing the civic duty. I ask you, Mr Speaker, for guidance on how we can persuade the Deputy Prime Minister to clarify his remarks, because the consultation ends this Friday.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for notice of his point of order. He will understand that this is not a matter for the Chair. All hon. and right hon. Members take responsibility for what they say in this House. However, what he has just said will have been heard on the Treasury Bench, and is of course on the record of the proceedings of the House.

Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, during the Defence statement, I asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether his officials were, on his instructions, routinely giving out details of his ministerial diary to Adam Werritty. In his reply, the Defence Secretary said: “that is not what I said. I was perfectly capable, without officials, of telling any of my friends where I would be, if I wanted to meet up with them.”—[Official Report, 10 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 37.] Now, the report prepared by Ursula Brennan—I should make it clear that there is no relationship between myself and the permanent secretary at the Ministry of Defence—makes it absolutely clear that “it has become apparent that the Defence Secretary provided or asked his office to provide some diary details to Adam Werritty”. The Defence Secretary denied ordering his officials to give out his diary, praying in aid the permanent secretary’s report, which directly contradicts that claim. Is it no longer the case that what Ministers say in this House has to be true?

Mr Speaker: There is an obligation on all Members to speak the truth in this House, but my response to the hon. Gentleman is very similar to my response to his right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), who 197 Points of Order 11 OCTOBER 2011 198

[Mr Speaker] Co-operative Housing Tenure Bill Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order spoke from the Front Bench a few moments ago, namely— No. 23) and in constitutional terms this is very important—that these are not matters for the Chair; all Members are responsible for what they say in this House. The hon. 4.16 pm Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) is, however, Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): a wily campaigner, and in the course of raising his I beg to move, attempted point of order with me he has registered his views firmly on the record. I think that we will leave it That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision that occupiers of dwellings owned by certain forms of co-operatives there for today. shall occupy those dwellings by virtue of their membership of the co-operative and not as tenants or under any other type of property interest; to make provision for co-operative tenure and for the respective rights and obligations of the co-operative and its members; and for connected purposes. There are few members on either side of the House who would not acknowledge that we face something of a housing crisis here in the UK. For people looking to step on to the first rung of the housing ladder, the average price of a property in the UK is now more than £160,000, and for those living in London it is more than £280,000. As a result, a typical first-time buyer now needs to raise a deposit of £52,000, which is without doubt a substantial amount, and most people now have to rely on the “bank of mum and dad” to help them to finance their first home. Estimates suggest that those who cannot seek financial support from their family will have to save for a deposit until they are 37, and in the coming years that age is expected to rise to 44, meaning that we could have a generation who are on the brink of becoming grandparents before they become homeowners. Buying a home is tough, with local authorities and housing associations owning 1 million fewer homes than in 1977, but this generation can no longer rely on social housing either. In the private sector rents are increasing more quickly than wages, living standards are hugely variable, tenants often feel that they live at the whim of their landlords, and there is no immediate sign of an improvement. The slow-down in the construction industry, the low levels of credit and the increases in demand caused by demographic changes will only tighten the squeeze on housing unless more alternatives can be found. It is now harder than ever for our young people to find a home of their own, whether they seek to buy or to rent. I do not suggest that there is one single solution to this problem, but if we are to address the issue we will need think differently and creatively in order to come up with solutions, and I propose today that part of that different and creative thinking should be to look beyond the traditional options of ownership or tenancy. There is a form of housing tenure, used to great success in other countries, which is not yet available here, and that tenure is co-operative housing. My Co-operative Housing Tenure Bill will open the way for co-operative housing schemes, which are not currently acknowledged in the law of this country, and in doing so it will offer a new form of tenure that would bring additional benefits to residents. For example, the Bill would ensure that residents had a real say in the management of their housing scheme. It is a practical measure that would make a real difference to the lives of co-operative members, and through the use of shared ownership as security for finance it could also increase the availability of affordable housing. 199 Co-operative Housing Tenure Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Co-operative Housing Tenure Bill 200

As a member of the Co-operative party as well as the those rules would not be legally enforceable because Labour party, I am proud to introduce this Bill before they would not be in the original tenancy agreement. If the House today, and I acknowledge the support that I housing co-operative tenure were recognised in law, have received from the Co-operative party and from members might be able to access finance secured on David Rogers, at CDS Co-operatives, in preparing it. their stake in the housing complex. Currently the law Many Members will be familiar with the principles of defines co-operative members as tenants, and makes co-operatives, but for those who may not be, let me that impossible. briefly explain. A co-operative is a business that is The Bill that I am presenting today would provide for owned and controlled equally by the people who use its a modest but important change in the law that would services, or by the people who work there. A co-operative allow real co-operative housing to exist and flourish. In housing project is therefore one in which the property is doing so, it would provide a significant boost to investment owned collectively by a co-operative of members, and in housing co-operatives, increasing the supply and those members, as residents, then democratically own quality of homes in this country. and control the property in which they live. As members, For me, the values that motivate the Bill are deeply residents have a greater say over the management and rooted in the co-operative and socialist movement, famously maintenance of the scheme than they would as tenants, begun by the Rochdale pioneers at the end of the and co-operative schemes can be developed to enable 19th century. However, I recognise that the virtues that members to build up financial equity. co-operation promotes—the combination of rights with In many countries co-operative housing tenure is responsibilities, fraternity, respect and mutualism—have already recognised as a distinct way for people to acquire an appeal across the political spectrum. I welcome the right to occupy their homes. For example, in Sweden, support from anyone with a serious interest in these where co-operative housing has existed in law since matters. 1920, 18% of homes are provided in that way. I believe that the Bill would not have significant But here in the UK there is no legal recognition of resource implications or place undue obligations on the unique status of co-operative housing. The law anyone who was reluctant; however, it would open the recognises only ownership and tenancy—tenures that door to a form of housing successfully provided to date back to feudal times. The Bill would legally great effect in other countries, and I believe that there is acknowledge housing co-operatives in this country for a need and appetite for it in this country. Since tabling the first time. Of course, co-operative housing schemes the motion to bring in the Bill, I have received a great exist to some degree already in the UK, but with no many messages of support and interest from all parts of specific legal provision they have to be governed by the country. The time for co-operative housing is now, general landlord and tenant law. That means that the and I commend the Bill to the House. arrangements are legally speaking more contractual Question put and agreed to. than co-operative, which presents frequent practical Ordered, difficulties and limitations on the management and development of the co-operative housing scheme. That Jonathan Reynolds, Mr Andrew Love, Chris Leslie, Chris Evans, David Miliband, Tom Blenkinsop, For example, if the law were to recognise co-operative Luciana Berger, John Woodcock, Mr Gareth Thomas, tenure, members would be able to determine repair and Gavin Shuker, Mr Adrian Bailey and Alison McGovern maintenance obligations democratically. Currently, the present the Bill. law makes that impossible, dictating that a landlord must be wholly responsible. If the law recognised Jonathan Reynolds accordingly presented the Bill. co-operative tenure, members would be able to make Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on their own rules and regulations democratically. Currently Friday 20 January 2012, and to be printed (Bill 231). 201 11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 202

Protection of Freedoms Bill Mr Hanson: I rise to speak to new clause 16, tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for Eltham (Clive Efford) and for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) and the others listed. [2ND ALLOCATED DAY] Further consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling, who originally Bill Committee tabled new clauses and amendments on behalf of the shadow Home Office team, has been promoted to the shadow Cabinet. If you will indulge me, Mr Speaker, I New Clause 16 will begin by paying tribute to him for his sterling work in the police field during his time in this brief. Once CCTV AND CRIME PREVENTION AND DETECTION upon a time, he was the Policing Minister. I succeeded ‘The Secretary of State must commission a report by Her him in government as the Policing Minister, he succeeded Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary into the use of CCTV by me as the shadow Policing Minister in opposition, and I the police and local authorities as a measure for the prevention succeed him again as the shadow Policing Minister. and detection of crime.’.—(Mr Hanson.) Between us, we have several years of service, but not Brought up, and read the First time. continuously. I wish to place on record my thanks to my hon. Friend for his work in raising what we accept are 4.24 pm politically contentious issues at a time when there is real concern about the future direction of policing and there Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I beg to move, That are real differences between the Government and the the clause be read a Second time. Opposition. However, I hope I can say, on behalf of the Government as well as the Opposition, that he exercised Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss those duties in a fair and equitable way. amendment 110, page 20, line 7, clause 29, leave out ‘a code of practice containing’. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Amendment 104, page 20, line 9, leave out Home Department (James Brokenshire): I, too, put on ‘Such a code must contain guidance’ record, in the nicest possible way, my best wishes to the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker). He and I and insert had some frank exchanges over the years, but I certainly ‘The guidance may contain information’. mark out the good-natured way in which we were able Amendment 105, page 20, line 12, at end add— to reconcile our differences at times, and I welcome him ‘(c) the importance of using CCTV to prevent and detect to his new responsibilities. crime, (d) ways to take into account the views of the public in Mr Hanson: I am grateful for the Minister’s support relation to CCTV provision, including the use of for my comments about my hon. Friend. I assure the public petitions.’. Minister that I will try to kick him very hard on some of Amendment 106, page 20, leave out lines 13 to 28. the political issues, but I hope that we can enjoy a similar relationship to that he had with my predecessor. Amendment 95, page 20, line 13, leave out from Having dealt with the hon. Gentleman from the ‘code’ to end of line 24 and insert Government side of the Chamber when he was in ‘must have, in particular— opposition, I am sure that we will have a positive (a) regard to the purpose of prevention and detection of relationship. crime, I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (b) consideration for petitions from the public as consultation (Gloria De Piero), who has joined the shadow team and on CCTV provision, with any such petition to be brought to the attention of the Commissioner, is graciously supporting me in this debate. (c) not inhibiting CCTV provision for the purpose of preventing and detecting crime, and Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): She is not the only one. (d) consideration as to whether the use of CCTV will prevent and detect crime.’. Mr Hanson: Indeed. I strongly appreciate my hon. Amendment 107, page 20, line 29, leave out ‘such a Friend’s support in dealing with the proposals before code’ and insert ‘guidance’. the House. Government amendment 20 I will move on to the meat of the issue, because that is Amendment 99, page 21, line 14, leave out clause 30. important for the House. Part 2 of the Bill proposes the Amendment 100, page 21, line 35, leave out clause 31. introduction of a surveillance code covering the operation of CCTV by public authorities in England and Wales, Amendment 101, page 22, line 22, leave out clause 32. and the creation of a commissioner to promote compliance Amendment 102, page 22, line 30, leave out clause 33. with the code. The code will operate as a mechanism of Amendment 103, page 24, line 5, clause 34, leave out self-regulation and will be set by the Secretary of State. ‘code’ and insert ‘guidance’. Our new clause and amendments would do several Amendment 96, page 24, line 6, leave out ‘code’ and things which we want to explore with the Minister to insert ‘guidance’. get a feel for the approach he is taking. These matters were considered heavily in Committee. Perhaps fortunately, Amendment 97, page 24, line 6, leave out from ‘code’ on some levels, I was not there, so we may need to revisit to end of line 8. some of them today. It is important that we examine the Amendment 98, page 24, line 30, clause 35, leave out concerns about CCTV; the amendments are designed to ‘code’ and insert ‘guidance’. get a flavour at least of the Government’s thinking and Government amendments 31 and 67. to place on record the Opposition’s views. 203 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 204

Labour Members want to ensure that the role of CCTV Dr Huppert indicated dissent. is strengthened and its importance is recognised. We want to ensure that the code operates in an effective way Mr Hanson: I may be doing the hon. Gentleman a and does not hamper the development of CCTV. We disservice, but I did not get the flavour that he was keen want to have a presumption in favour of the police on CCTV. I am happy to allow the Liberals to place on being able to set up CCTV in our communities to tackle the record their full support for CCTV. crime through prevention and through bringing perpetrators to justice. The purpose of new clause 16 is to put in Dr Huppert: CCTV clearly has a role, which is why place a review by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary the Bill does not make having it illegal and merely tries to ensure that we examine, quantify and agree on the to regulate it. CCTV is very useful in some cases. To definitive benefits of CCTV so that we know exactly the answer the question that the right hon. Gentleman baseline. refused to answer, I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of having CCTV cameras on one in three houses. I Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I thank the think that that would be a horrible, Big Brother state right hon. Gentleman for giving way and welcome him and it slightly alarms me that he is keen on it. to his post. Shortly before the last general election, I heard a police officer from my region say on TV that his Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but vision was to have CCTV cameras on one in three he should not put words in other Members’ mouths. houses. He said that that would really give us a good eye What I have said is that CCTV should play a role. I do on what was happening. Is that the sort of vision that not expect ever to see one in three houses in my street or the right hon. Gentleman has? in his street with CCTV cameras, but there is no strategic need for us to put obstacles in the way of CCTV being Mr Hanson: I have a vision of CCTV playing a role in put in place if there is a need for it. stopping crime and catching criminals. Communities in constituencies such as Ashfield and mine in north Wales Andrew Miller: Will my right hon. Friend give way? should have confidence that if a crime is committed, people can be caught using CCTV. It might also have a Mr Hanson: I am trying to make progress, but of deterrent effect. We should have a proportionate response course I give way. with CCTV in appropriate places where police, local authorities and, as we have discussed and will discuss, Andrew Miller: Is it not better to put it slightly the private sector feel there is a need to provide such differently? Many of our constituents who have suffered reassurance and support. nuisance and criminality in their environment come to us and ask, “Why can’t we have CCTV?” Should this Dr Huppert: I apologise if I was not quite clear. not be a matter on which we liaise with local communities Would the right hon. Gentleman be comfortable with to ensure that the scope of CCTV meets their needs? seeing CCTV cameras on one in three houses? Mr Hanson: As ever, my hon. Friend speaks common Mr Hanson: I would be comfortable with a reduction sense. Perhaps part of the guidance to be issued in due in crime like that under the previous Labour Government. course could be about such consultation. I have not yet, I think that CCTV plays an important role. I will come in nearly 20 years as a Member of this House, had on to that in a moment and we will test whether the anybody come to me to say, “Mr Hanson, please do not hon. Gentleman would support the examples that I give. put a CCTV camera in our street.” Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his elevation, or perhaps I should Dr Huppert: Ihave. say on his sideways move to shadow the position he Mr Hanson: It may happen in Cambridge, but it does held in government. I want to probe him on why he not happen in my constituency in north Wales. In fact, chose HMIC as the organisation that would monitor most people in my constituency argue for more CCTV this matter under the new clause. In the new landscape, cameras, not fewer. I have digressed, but I repeat that we tend to put a lot of responsibility on HMIC and I new clause 16 asks for HMIC to make a case for the wonder whether it has the resources to deal with these crime fighting capability of CCTV. additional responsibilities, important though they are. The second objective of our amendments is to strip Mr Hanson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for away some of the bureaucracy that we believe could act his welcome. One advantage of being in opposition, as an obstacle to the police doing their job of tackling although there are not many, is that the right hon. crime and making communities safer. I would welcome Gentleman’s Select Committee will not scrutinise me the Minister giving his view on why there has been no and my Department, as he will the Minister. There are mention yet of the private sector’s role in relation to the occasional silver linings in what are very big clouds. further regulation of CCTV. My right hon. Friend asked a valid question about I hope it will help the hon. Member for Cambridge HMIC. He will know that the new clause was tabled (Dr Huppert) if I say that only a few hours ago I looked prior to my elevation to this post and that it was my through news from the past week or so about the right hon. and hon. Friends who chose HMIC. It is impact of CCTV in our communities. I pulled off the important that HMIC looks at issues of police performance, internet four examples from just the past week of real one of which is the role of CCTV and its effectiveness in instances in which CCTV has made a difference. I fighting crime. There may be other mechanisms to look worry that the code of practice that the Minister is at that, but I want to hear from the Minister a defence bringing in might well have an impact on the ability of of CCTV. I am already getting a slight sniff that some the police or local authorities to provide the necessary coalition Members are not so supportive of CCTV. level of CCTV coverage. 205 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 206

[Mr Hanson] an armed robber and lead to his conviction. I should like some clarity before we reach a settlement that stops I looked first at the Daily Mail, which, as my hon. such a criminal being brought to justice. Friends will know, is an august publication that is required reading for Opposition spokesmen on every Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend was the Policing occasion. It had a headline that read, “Masked bank Minister when the Home Affairs Committee in the robber caught on CCTV holding a sawn-off shotgun to previous Parliament published its report on the surveillance bank customer’s head”. There was a private CCTV society. In that report, the Committee warned of the camera in the bank, on which the individual was caught, excessive number of cameras. No one denies that there but helpfully for him he had placed on his head a are areas where there is a demand for such cameras and balaclava that covered his face, so he was not recognised. that proper policing priorities mean that there ought to However, the gentleman concerned, a Mr Trevor Hayes, be cameras on some buildings. However, he must accept was recognised pulling his balaclava off his head as he that we reached the end of the road with the unlimited walked away from the bank, in Watlington, Oxfordshire, use of CCTV all over the country in all circumstances. having been caught on a local authority CCTV camera. Surely there must be criteria to judge whether it is I should like to discuss the case with the Minister; needed. Mr Hayes is now serving 15 years for the bank robbery, which was caused by his actions but solved by CCTV capturing him on camera. My question to the Minister Mr Hanson: There must indeed be such criteria. On is whether his code of practice will ultimately lead to behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends who tabled less use of CCTV by local authorities. new clause 16, I am today testing whether those criteria make it more difficult to put CCTV in place now, never The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the mind whether they discourage the further use of CCTV. Home Department (Lynne Featherstone) indicated dissent. Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): Mr Hanson: There is a shaking of a Minister’s head, Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that, in addition so I hope that will not be the case. to the number of CCTV cameras, it is important to consider their quality? One problem that police come Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does the right up against is the fact that many CCTV cameras are not hon. Gentleman accept that nothing in the Bill is in any turned on or aimed in the right direction, and do not way aimed at reducing the amount of CCTV in this capture the important data that they should capture. country? It is aimed purely at regulating the CCTV that Rather than aiding the police in detecting and preventing we have. crime, such cameras do not achieve what they should achieve. Perhaps a regulatory framework would assist Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but rather than hinder the police. A properly framed regulatory what concerns me is that the coalition’s programme for framework could improve the situation for CCTV and government states that it is committed to implementing surveillance in this country rather than create the problems “a full programme of measures to…roll back state intrusion.” that the right hon. Gentleman seems to imply it might. As part of that programme, it undertakes to “further regulate CCTV”. I am sure he would accept that capturing Mr Hanson: May I helpfully—I hope—agree with the an individual, who is now serving 15 years, through hon. Lady? I believe that we need strong, quality CCTV local authority CCTV on a public highway is not “state cameras. In one estate in my constituency, incidents intrusion” but a valuable use of CCTV. have been seen by CCTV, but no convictions resulted, That is what I want to test the Minister on. I know that because the camera quality was insufficient and the he has discussed the code at length in Committee, and I pictures were blurred. am sorry that I was not there to share those moments with him. I shall quote the consultation for the benefit I apologise if these matters were covered in Committee, of the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson). It but it is important that we cover them again. I am just states that the code will include consideration of testing my worry with the Minister. The code will include consideration of “whether the proposed installation is part of a developed and integrated strategy…clarity on the main purpose and perceived “the appropriateness of permanent or temporary/mobile advantages of the use of the technology cameras…cost benefit analysis…consultation with relevant partners…appropriate consultation with the public, or…specific and an group” “assessment of whether…technology will meet that purpose in full…whether there are alternative means of achieving the same and outcomes…whether accompanying safeguards (including operating “reviews of the continuing need for, or value of, any system procedures) are already in place or need to be developed” installed.” and Those criteria have been set, and my simple question, “impact assessments (including environmental, privacy, which I hope answers the point made by the hon. disproportionality etc)”. Member for Dartford, is whether those hoops will help The hon. Member for Cambridge hinted at privacy to maintain CCTV, or whether they will say to local considerations. All I am saying is that I am worried that authorities, “There is cost, time and aggro. Do you the code—as I understand it, the guidance has not been really want it?” Residents of a street in Cambridge published—could lead to more hoops for local authorities might say, “We don’t want CCTV in our street,” but and/or the police to jump through before a camera is in that street might just happen to be the one that Mr Hayes place in, for example, Watlington, Oxfordshire, to capture walks down when he takes off his balaclava. 207 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 208

Dr Huppert: The right hon. Gentleman has given a Mr Hanson: I shall try to find some common ground. long list of criteria—he has said that CCTV should be I do not necessarily think that the public state sector—the proportionate and respect privacy and so forth—but police and local authorities, which is what we are dealing with which of those criteria does he disagree? with in the Bill—should be training cameras on people’s private homes. However, the code of practice refers to Mr Hanson: The Opposition’s new clause 16 simply “appropriate consultation with the public, or any specific group, says that we want Her Majesty’s inspectorate of most directly affected by any planned surveillance”. constabulary to undertake separately an assessment of I shall cite a case in Southampton this week. A local the importance of CCTV as part of the crime-fighting paper reported: capability of the police. That mechanism would say, “We recognise the importance of CCTV.”I want a clear “A thug who punched two men in separate unprovoked attacks during a drug and booze fuelled night out in Southampton has statement from the Minister and the Government that been locked up. One of Jamal Farooq’s victims was left needing CCTV is important and that their proposals will not surgery on a fractured jaw after being ferociously hit in the face in add to the bureaucracy, time and difficulty of putting the apparently random attack… The attack…came shortly after CCTV cameras in place. CCTV cameras had caught Farooq, of Orchard Lane, Southampton, Let us go back to basics. The Government say that approaching and punching an unknown victim in another apparently they want to roll back “state intrusion”, but I do not unprovoked attack.” believe that capturing a criminal who has just carried He was only caught because of CCTV cameras in an out a bank robbery is state intrusion. However, according area where there were public places as well as private to the logic of the hon. Member for Cambridge, CCTV places. He was only convicted because of the CCTV cameras are not necessarily a positive thing in those cameras. circumstances. His logic is that “state intrusion” and Following a match between Luton Town and York CCTV cameras, used in a wide range of circumstances last year, the police released CCTV footage to the media and covering different streets, might not be a positive in an effort to track down offenders, which led to four thing. convictions of individuals for gross activity and violence at a football match, including for 4.45 pm “taking brooms, mops, pans…outside a DIY store in Bury Park and throwing them at police.” Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In Northern Ireland, That happened in a public area where, under these we have a large expanse of CCTV. In my area, we have proposals, there might need to be appropriate consultation them in our town, but there is a demand coming from with the public, which might mean further hoops to the general public. The right hon. Gentleman has given jump through. I think that the wider public interest, to one example in which cameras have proved useful. which the local authority—elected by the public, let us In the town that I represent, the general public want remember—must have regard, and the police, who will CCTV. It has reduced crime in the town centre by 50%, shortly be accountable to police commissioners, can car theft by 45% and theft of other items by 55%. provide sufficient control to manage these issues in a Clearly, CCTV can deliver and is a sleeping policeman way that does not add hoops. I want the Minister to that reduces crime. justify the code to ensure that we are not putting in place something that will roll back what is termed “state Mr Hanson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend—if I intrusion” by the coalition agreement. can call him that—for his comments. I shall quote from an article last week in the Batley and Birstall News: Nicola Blackwood: In response to my hon. Friend the “Sgt Chris Hughes from Batley Neighbourhood Policing Team Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson), the right hon. said the cameras were a ‘massive plus’ for the police. He said: ‘CCTV is independent evidence at the end of the day telling us Gentleman gave a number of examples, but I do not exactly what’s going on and whether someone should be charged think that they accurately characterise the problem with an offence or not. CCTV is a massive, massive investigation between public and private areas. An example of a local tool for the police. We rely on it for everything from street crime authority possibly creating a problem of privacy would to terrorist activity and murder.’” be a local school wishing to put CCTV cameras in the In supporting the new clauses and amendments tabled children’s bathrooms or changing rooms. That could by my hon. Friends, I simply point out that the coalition create more problems, which we might want to address agreement states clearly that the Government want to in a regulatory way. Similarly, a camera placed on a roll back “state intrusion”. That sends a signal about a local authority building might also overlook private starting place which is not the starting place I am at. housing. Those are the kinds of areas in which the public-private dynamic creates problems, and a regulatory framework would be helpful in resolving them. Gareth Johnson: The right hon. Gentleman is right to raise the case he did. I do not think that anyone in the House wants to prevent cameras in that situation from Mr Hanson: Those are interesting ideas to test in the capturing people who rob banks, and I do not think debate, but we have not got the guidance. I confess to that that is the intention of the Bill. However, we could the Minister that, in the dying days of the Labour just as easily identify cases in which public cameras Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth are pointed on private areas. We need to find a way, (Mr Campbell) and I looked at how we might manage through regulation, of ensuring that public cameras act this, and we did not reach any conclusions. The key as a deterrent and provide safety for the public, but question is: how do we ensure that CCTV in public do not intrude on private individuals in their own places is not discriminated against by the hoops that are backyards. being set up by the legislation? 209 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 210

[Mr Hanson] piecemeal legislation that could negatively affect the police’s ability to carry out their work. The purpose of The new clause proposes an independent assessment our new clause is to ensure that we analyse the police’s by the police, through Her Majesty’s inspectorate of assessment of CCTV before finalising the code and constabulary, of the importance of CCTV, to ascertain guidance. New clause 16 reinforces our other amendments how it contributes to crime fighting and crime prevention, in calling for HMIC to commission a report on the use prior to the code and the guidance being produced. We of CCTV by the police and local authorities for the do not want the code and the guidance to militate prevention and detection of crime. It strikes me—although against the crime-fighting potential of CCTV. I would say this—that in tabling our amendments, my I want to touch briefly on automatic number plate hon. Friends have some eminently sensible points to recognition. This is another area in which “state intrusion”, make. I hope that I have done them justice today. in the form of examining number plates, could be If the Government are to continue to “roll back state discriminated against by the proposals in the Bill. The intrusion”, they should do so on the basis of the available random examination of number plates is an effective empirical evidence. We know anecdotally, from what crime-fighting tool. I have seen it at work in my own the Local Government Group reported to the Committee, force in north Wales, when I have sat in the back of that CCTV is making a positive difference. If there are vans, both as a Policing Minister and as a constituency negative or positive repercussions once the voluntary MP. A code could, however, fail to acknowledge its code has kicked in, policy decisions can then be made importance. I want clarification from the Minister on on the best information available. We know that automatic whether automatic number plate recognition will be number plate recognition helps to bring individuals to seen as the “state intrusion” mentioned in the coalition justice. Some 20,592 individuals have been brought to agreement. justice through automatic number plate recognition in Let me give an example from my constituency. Only the last couple of years alone, including about 52,000 recently, Mr Laurence Bernard Levey and Mr Gary for vehicle document-related offences—no road tax, for Warner were convicted of conspiring to secure the example—and about 41,000 vehicles have been seized robbery of some £140,000 worth of cash and jewellery for lacking insurance. from the home of one of my constituents. After a long Will the Minister clarify the parameters of “rolling trail was followed between a jewellery store and a back state intrusion”? Would it be state intrusion to well-known criminal with previous convictions, the install an automatic number plate recognition camera conviction was achieved only because automatic number at the end of a residential street in an area with a high plate recognition cameras were able to prove that a car level of burglaries, for example, or on a main road used had been in a certain place at a certain time, which tied every day by people driving to work or to the shops? in with the mobile phone records of another party who Having looked at the provisions of the code—only in said that those involved had never met. The automatic the last couple of days, I accept—and having seen what number plate recognition and the mobile phone records my hon. Friends said in Committee and the Government’s tied those individuals to that place at that time. general starting point, I worry that the Bill’s proposals The Government could argue that having automatic on working towards guidance and the code will restrict number plate recognition equipment stationed at certain the use of CCTV and make organisations such as the places at certain times constitutes “state intrusion”, police and local authorities think even harder before because such equipment could capture my car, or those they use it, thereby leading to an increase in crime. of my hon. Friends the Members for Ashfield and for In passing, I ask the Minister to reflect on something Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) or my right that surprised me when I examined the Bill afresh today. hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), Why does it cover police and local authorities? The vast for example, as we drove past that location, but would majority of CCTV cameras are in the hands of private that be “state intrusion”, or would it simply provide a individuals or organisations, so why are they not to be record, if it were needed, that a certain person had been covered by the proposed code of practice? It strikes me in a certain place at a certain time? Such undeniable that some thought should be given to that as part of the evidence ultimately led to the conviction last week of overall strategy. In the first example that I gave today— the two individuals I mentioned: Mr Warner received a Mr Hayes committing a bank robbery—the first CCTV sentence of 16 years in prison and Mr Levey one of picture in the Daily Mail was taken from in the bank, 10 years. In my view, that “state intrusion” helped to and the second, which was used to convict him, was bring justice for my constituent, whose property was taken from a camera in the street, yet the proposals in stolen by two people who will now have a long time in the Bill appear to treat each set of CCTV cameras prison to reflect on the importance of automatic number differently. I would welcome an explanation of that plate recognition. from the Minister. I am not alone in saying that; the Local Government Finally, let me quote colleagues who gave written Group said in evidence to the Committee that CCTV evidence to the Public Bill Committee. The Information had been Commissioner said: “instrumental in bringing criminals to justice including in the Jamie Bulger case, the…bombings in London and the murder of “There is also widespread use of CCTV and ANPR…across Ben Kinsella,” all sectors including government agencies”. and other murders—indeed, CCTV was used in He thinks that 86 investigations into 90 murders in London in one “further thought should be given to the implications of limiting year. Our starting point is that CCTV is a good tool for the application of the code to the police and local government the police in tackling crime. I do not want confused and only,” 211 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 212 which indicates the kind of thinking about the private work was followed through to ensure that those responsible sector generally that I just mentioned. The chief surveillance were brought to justice. The Government recognise the commissioner said in evidence to the Committee said important role that CCTV can play. that there is ill informed and wrong criticism of local From the way the right hon. Gentleman introduced authorities in relation to covert surveillance, which is the new clause and amendments, I gained a sense that the issue that the hon. Member for Cambridge and he felt slightly uncomfortable about some of the provisions. others raised. Again, I would welcome a response from I understand his desire to probe and to go back over the Minister on that. The Local Government Group some of the debates we had in Committee, and I accept has been that he might not have had the opportunity to review “keen to ensure that CCTV regulation does not overburden and reflect on the Committee reports, but I can tell him councils and we believe that the new Code of Practice for surveillance that a number of the issues he has brought to our camera systems could be a useful resource if it is genuinely a attention this afternoon were considered in detail in single source of guidance… We are concerned however that new data burdens are not placed on councils, and are also concerned Committee. at the potential for confusion from having both the Surveillance The right hon. Gentleman asked why, at this stage, Camera Commissioner and Information Commissioner regulating the code of practice is to apply only to public authorities CCTV.” and the police. We want to take a measured approach: There is a range of issues there. we want incremental change rather than a sudden significant shift, in order not to undermine the purposes of CCTV that he has identified. We want to provide a regulatory 5pm framework that allows CCTV to operate and to achieve In summary, the new clause is saying, “Let’s have an the desired result of ensuring that the public have trust assessment before going down this much more detailed and confidence in the system. road. Let’s look at what the police and local authorities need to do to ensure that we have CCTV that meets our Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): In 15 years objectives of capturing criminals, supporting the reduction of being a political animal—I was a councillor before I of crime and increasing confidence.”The genuine concerns came here—the only complaints that I have received of Members about how CCTV is used should also be about CCTV have related to private use. As the hon. met. My worry is, albeit without having seen the guidance Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola in detail, that the code as drafted will put off local Blackwood) pointed out, there can be knock-on effects authorities and the police from using CCTV.Ultimately, for next-door neighbours. I think that the Government that will potentially lead to a rise in crime. I commend are doing this the wrong way round: they should try to new clause 16 and look forward to hearing the Minister’s regulate use by the private sector and private residents response. before trying to deal with the public sector. James Brokenshire: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman James Brokenshire: There is a potential issue of trust to his new role. I know he dealt with CCTV issues and confidence in the public sector as well. In a review during his time as Police Minister, so I recognise that he of Project Champion, which involved the use of CCTV was examining regulation during his time at the Home cameras in Birmingham, Sara Thornton, chief constable Office. He acknowledge some of the challenges and of Thames Valley police, wrote: issues surrounding CCTV and its use, and the need to continue to command public confidence so that CCTV “In the course of this review I have met members of the can achieve the results we want, which are to protect the community and have read the press reports and it is clear that many people feel that their civil liberties have been disregarded. public and ensure that those who commit crimes are As a consequence, the trust and confidence that they have in the brought to justice. police has been significantly undermined.” The right hon. Gentleman may be reassured about Our code of practice is intended to provide a framework the Government’s approach—I acknowledge that he that would initially apply to public sector CCTV cameras, has not been in his position very long, so he might not but could be adopted by the private sector to raise have had the opportunity to read the consultation document standards more generally.The Bill provides for an extension on the code of practice—if I quote what the consultation of its ambit or remit in due course, if that proves document says at the outset: necessary. I believe that that proportionate approach is “We do not intend therefore, that anything in our proposals the right way to address this important issue. should hamper the ability of the law enforcement agencies or any other organisation, to use such technology as necessary to prevent or detect crime, or otherwise help to ensure the safety and security Keith Vaz: rose— of individuals. What is important is that such use is reasonable, justifiable and transparent so that citizens in turn, feel properly James Brokenshire: I will give way to the Chairman of informed about, and able to support, the security measures that the Home Affairs Committee, because I clearly remember are in place.” our debate in Westminster Hall about the surveillance It is that context of ensuring trust and confidence and state and his Committee’s earlier consideration of the moving forward on that basis that will allow us to issue. I well understand the importance that he attaches ensure that CCTV is able to fulfil the important purposes to the subject. he mentioned. In the aftermath of the disorder in August, I went to Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend the Member for see the Metropolitan police CCTV centre. I was struck Delyn (Mr Hanson) referred to the statement made by by what I saw of the work undertaken there to identify the coalition. The last time the Select Committee considered the criminals who had been engaged in looting and this issue, we noted that there were 1.85 million cameras other disorder in our communities, and I saw how the in existence, but the number has probably risen since 213 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 214

[Keith Vaz] might point to the evidence given in Committee by Deputy Chief Constable Graeme Gerrard, who is the then. Do the Government have a target for the number Association of Chief Police Officers lead on CCTV. He of cameras, or will a different criterion be used? We talked about the work the previous Government did in keep hearing about how their use will be rolled back, 2007 on producing a national CCTV strategy, and but we are keen to know how many will be rolled away. emphasised that that addressed “standards around images, the retention period for images, the James Brokenshire: It is not a simple question of quality of images and ensuring that systems are fit for purpose. numbers, but a question of people’s trust and confidence We also requested some sort of framework for regulation and a in the use of CCTV in their neighbourhoods and sort of oversight body for CCTV.” communities. That is the relevant factor and it is reflected He added: in the approach that we adopted in the consultation, “So in principle, we are supportive of what is being suggested.”— whose findings we have published and the responses to [Official Report, Protection of Freedoms Public Bill Committee, which we are now examining. It is a question of whether 22 March 2011; c. 16, Q34.] the public trust what is there. We want CCTV to be seen The House should be aware that there has not been a as a positive benefit that will aid security. headlong rush to try to undermine CCTV and its benefits. Several years ago, a report by the Home Affairs Rather, we have tried to ensure trust and confidence in Committee articulated very well the concerns expressed its use, both now and in the future, by providing a by, for instance, the Information Commissioner about regulatory framework that gives the protections that “sleepwalking into a surveillance society”. many of our constituents have lobbied us about. This is It was felt that the system had grown up over not a kneejerk reaction or an attempt to get rid of lots the years without a proper regulatory framework, but of CCTV cameras. It is an attempt to give confidence in of course there are provisions relating to the Data the use of CCTV cameras, reflecting on initiatives such Protection Act and the information published by the as Project Champion, by putting in place a regulatory Information Commissioner himself. We want to bring framework. those elements together to create clear guidance and a Let me deal briefly with the amendments in the name regulatory framework to which public authorities and of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. the police must have regard, to ensure that that trust Amendment 20 is a response to a similar amendment and confidence exist. tabled in Committee by the hon. Member for Gedling We must also look at value for money and effectiveness. (Vernon Coaker). Clause 29(6) defines surveillance camera As the right hon. Gentleman says, there are a lot of systems for the purposes of chapter 1 of part 2 of the CCTV cameras. We must ensure that they are harnessed Bill. In addition to CCTV and automatic number plate and used as effectively as possible and that standards recognition systems, the definition includes are applied. The interim CCTV regulator appointed “any other systems for recording or viewing visual images of under the previous Government has focused on that objects or events for surveillance purposes”. and taken the standards issue further. It is on that basis that we need to look at regulation and trust and confidence, The hon. Gentleman questioned the need for the reference as well as how we can ensure cameras are used more to “objects or events”. Having considered the issue effectively in the fight against crime. further, I am satisfied that nothing hangs on these words, and that, as he suggested, they are more likely to Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East confuse than enlighten. Our amendment therefore simply Cleveland) (Lab): The code of practice says that only removes the offending words. local authorities and police forces Amendments 31 and 67 simply debar the surveillance “will be required to have regard to the code in their use of camera commissioner from also serving as a Member of surveillance camera systems”. the House by adding the office to the list in schedule 1 Will private sector retail cameras also be covered? They to the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975. might intrude on public spaces. What might be the In essence, the Opposition amendments seek to replace implications for the use of such cameras in relation to the proposed surveillance camera code of practice with incidents such as the recent riots in London, Birmingham guidance that will simply provide information about and the cities of the north? how CCTV can prevent and detect crime. Moreover, they would remove any form of parliamentary scrutiny, and James Brokenshire: At this stage, we take the view they would remove the duty on the police, police and that public sector cameras in the purest sense—those of crime commissioners and local authorities to have regard local authorities and police—should be covered, but we to the code, and on the surveillance camera commissioner intend that any standards set may be rolled out further to provide advice about the code, including on changes to in due course and that other providers of CCTV services it. Taken together, the amendments would remove the should consider the code of practice and perhaps adhere code of practice and the framework that we believe is to it on a voluntary basis. That is why I have referred to important in order to deliver on those issues that I have the process being incremental. We want the introduction highlighted, such as giving trust and confidence to of regulation to be handled in a measured way, in order communities about how CCTV is being operated. That to avoid some of the negative consequences to which is why we do not believe that the amendments are the shadow Minister alluded and to ensure that CCTV necessary, and I hope that, on reflection, the right hon. provides protection and assurance to the public. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) will consider the measured It is worth highlighting that we have undertaken a and proportionate approach that the Government are public consultation, which has now been completed, to taking and will feel minded not to press his amendments garner feedback from all the different stakeholders. I to a vote. 215 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 216

Tom Blenkinsop rose— want more and more CCTV cameras. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) talked about his constituents James Brokenshire: Before I sit down, I shall give way in Northern Ireland. The shadow Minister talked about one last time. Mr Hayes and his balaclava, and he will obviously be one of the great features of this debate. I can talk about 5.15 pm my constituents in the Northfields estate, as every time I Tom Blenkinsop: I thank the Minister for being very go to a public meeting in that estate they want cameras generous with his time. I just wanted to ask about the put up because they feel that that is the only way to use of mobile CCTV cameras by police forces for crowd reduce crime. That must apply to every Member of this control purposes, particularly outside football grounds. House: local residents feel that one of the best ways of Fortunately, parties on both sides of the House have catching criminals is for CCTV cameras to be put up in introduced legislation and given powers to the police to the neighbourhood. reduce the amount of hooliganism. What will be the The problem for local authorities and the police is to implications of the Bill for mobile CCTV usage by ensure that there is a balance. There cannot be a CCTV police to reduce crowd hooliganism, in any sport? camera everywhere that people want one. They must be fit for purpose and they must contain film because, as James Brokenshire: It will depend on the nature of we heard from the hon. Member for Oxford West and the CCTV use—whether it is covert or overt, and whether, Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), in some cases the cameras if it is covert, it falls within the separate regime under do not work. Criminals will not necessarily be put off the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. The when they see a camera that does not move. In this code could apply to overt CCTV but, as I have highlighted Chamber, every time somebody moves from one position this afternoon, the actions we are taking are not intended to another, the cameras move their little heads and to diminish the effectiveness of the police. From my follow the Members as they speak. It is very important visit to the football policing unit, I recognise how that cameras are fit for purpose. When they are put CCTV and video camera evidence can be very powerful up—especially when new cameras are erected—they tools in dealing with football hooliganism and those must pass a test: do they benefit the local community who shame the legitimate football supporters who are and will they result in criminals being caught? If they proud to support their clubs. I recognise the importance are merely being put up for the sake of it, are they of putting our focus on football policing and how necessary? That is the test that we must all follow. CCTV can play an important role. Given my comments, I hope that the right hon. Member for Delyn will not I was glad to hear from the Minister that he is press the Opposition amendments to a vote. interested in regulation and that there is a desire for a code of practice. I was also glad to hear that from the Keith Vaz: May I begin by congratulating my right shadow Minister, although I was concerned by his hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) on proposal that the body that monitors the code should assuming the position of shadow police Minister? We be HMIC. In his modest and boyish way, he said that he remember his many contributions over the past few did not write the amendment, so he was not necessarily years as the police Minister in the Labour Government. 100% clear as to why that body was the HMIC, but May I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member there is a danger in placing too much on the shoulders for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) on joining our home of the HMIC and poor old Sir Denis O’Connor and his affairs Front-Bench team? I had the pleasure of interviewing fellow inspectors. I think there are only about a dozen her when she came before the national executive committee of them in total, with one vacancy now that Mr Hogan- of the Labour party as a candidate. Although I thought Howe is the new commissioner. We should be wary of that she was an outstanding candidate and that she placing more responsibilities on organisations. The decision would have a glittering career, not even I could have was made before my right hon. Friend took office, so to predicted that within 18 months of her election she speak, and we do not know why the HMIC is given that would be sitting on the Front Bench speaking on behalf role, but I take his point that an organisation needs to of the Opposition on home affairs. monitor what is going on. I do not think that there is a lot that divides the two We must be very clear that we have probably reached Front-Bench teams on this issue. Although my right our limit as far as cameras are concerned. With millions hon. Friend is trying to make a great divide between the of cameras in this country and a large amount of Government and the Opposition, I heard nothing in the personal information being gathered about individuals, Minister’s speech to suggest that there is going to be a we should be cautious. bonfire of cameras. Members on both sides of the House accept that there will always be circumstances in Gareth Johnson: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept which cameras are necessary and desirable. that an additional challenge is the fact that technology This country has 1.85 million of these cameras, one in this area will not stand still? In the future, we will for every 32 citizens. When the Select Committee on potentially see various technologies such as face recognition Home Affairs in the previous Parliament produced a systems and even CCTV that can listen in on private weighty report into the surveillance society, we were conversations. If we want CCTV systems to maintain concerned that the country was, in the words of the public confidence, we need a code of practice and some commissioner, regulation that will ensure that they are not misused by “sleepwalking into a surveillance society”. public services. When considering this subject it is important that we balance what our constituents want with the general Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. civil liberties issues. Cases of this kind always involve a Of course, we all have our own technology—I see that balance. When we ask constituents, they say that they the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) is in his 217 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 218

[Keith Vaz] Back to the point. Let us have a proper debate about this. Let us not let down our constituents, who want to place and he is the Committee’s expert in tweeting and see proper mechanisms for dealing with crime, but let us new technologies, whereas I am still a dinosaur—and have in place a proper code that will be looked at within seconds of an event taking place, people will carefully, and an organisation or individual to monitor capture it on their cameras, they will e-mail it and it will what is going on. be on YouTube. Such technology is available all around us and it might not be as necessary to have a fixed Dr Huppert: I will try to be brief as we do not have camera to capture what is happening locally as it was much time left. It is a great pleasure to follow the 10 years ago. Mr Hayes and his balaclava could have Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, particularly been caught by somebody else walking around at that after he so politely managed to demolish the argument time. We should not necessarily rely on fixed cameras. made by the shadow Minister. I congratulate him on the elegance with which he did that. The right hon. Member The report by the Home Affairs Committee in the for Delyn (Mr Hanson), at least as he described it, previous Parliament was concerned with the need for a seems to live in a slightly bizarre world where CCTV is report to be placed annually before the House by the either all a good thing or all a bad thing, and that Information Commissioner. We did not necessarily feel people should either support all of it or none of it. He that local police forces were incapable of producing talked having no obstacles to more CCTV. That is the reports to their local police authorities or to their police kind of thinking that has led to us having a huge commissioner if and when they are elected next November, number of CCTV cameras. I hesitate to admit that I but the fact remains that we felt that a report should be have slightly different figures from my Chair. I have seen placed before the House and properly debated so that the figure of something like 4 million CCTV cameras. we know the precise situation. That is very important. However, it is a huge proportion. There seems to be an attempt by those on the Front Bench to pick a bit of a fight on this issue, but I think Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman’s figures are probably this is just the shadow Minister getting back into the much more up to date. I was quoting the figures in the groove in the Home Office team. There really is not very Home Affairs Committee report from three years ago. much between those on the two Front Benches on this issue. Probably we are all saying, “We’ve got enough Dr Huppert: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the cameras. We probably don’t need any more in vast correction. numbers. But those that are there need to be monitored That is one camera for every 14 people in this country. carefully.” That compares with other countries that also have interests in law enforcement. Chicago, with a population I talked about the cameras in this Chamber. Your of 3 million, has something like 10,000 cameras. That is office, Mr Deputy Speaker, is in the House. My office is a 20th of what we have. Do we know something that they in Norman Shaw North, and since 1 January this year, do not? Across the United States, they use fewer cameras. 25 laptops have been taken from the desks of right hon. and hon. Members there. I would be delighted, as I am The truth about CCTV is that it is not an all-or-none sure would fellow Members who reside there, if we had issue. It has its uses and its abuses, which is why we need CCTV cameras in the corridors so that we could find this code of practice. It has its costs for running and out who it is who has security clearance, with a pass, monitoring the systems and it has privacy implications, who can get into a building that was the old Scotland which is why I absolutely support the Government’s Yard, walk through the offices of 25 Members and take proposals. I hope that the right hon. Member for Delyn their laptops away. My first reaction, as someone who is will withdraw the new clause. concerned about the surveillance society, was “When Mr Hanson: Time is pressing because of the programme can we get some cameras?” I was astonished that we do motion, which we opposed. Rather than explain why I not even have sufficient cameras in the car park at shall support the new clause and why I ask my hon. Norman Shaw North. If we had a residents meeting in Friends to support it, I will simply press it to a Division. Norman Shaw North, or our own neighbourhood watch meeting there, we would be demanding these things. If 5.30 pm we demand them, others would too, but we must be Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 10 October). careful and cautious, because they must be fit for purpose The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already and serve the purpose for which they were intended. proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the clause be read a Second time. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): The right hon. The House divided: Ayes 229, Noes 319. Gentleman makes an interesting point. Are we not substituting the responsibility of parents for their children? Division No. 359] [5.30 pm When I was growing up as a wee lad, if I misbehaved on AYES my estate— Abrahams, Debbie Balls, rh Ed Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Banks, Gordon Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We had Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Barron, rh Mr Kevin better move on from internal security, which should not Alexander, Heidi Bayley, Hugh be discussed on the Floor of the House. Allen, Mr Graham Beckett, rh Margaret Anderson, Mr David Begg, Dame Anne Ashworth, Jonathan Bell, Sir Stuart Keith Vaz: We will talk about this later. What the hon. Austin, Ian Benn, rh Hilary Gentleman did as a wee lad sounds like a fascinating Bailey, Mr Adrian Berger, Luciana story. Bain, Mr William Betts, Mr Clive 219 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 220

Blackman-Woods, Roberta Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Paul Slaughter, Mr Andy Blenkinsop, Tom Greatrex, Tom Murray, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Blomfield, Paul Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Smith, Angela Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Griffith, Nia Nash, Pamela Smith, Nick Brennan, Kevin Gwynne, Andrew O’Donnell, Fiona Smith, Owen Brown, Lyn Hain, rh Mr Peter Onwurah, Chi Spellar, rh Mr John Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Fabian Osborne, Sandra Straw, rh Mr Jack Brown, Mr Russell Hanson, rh Mr David Owen, Albert Stringer, Graham Bryant, Chris Harman, rh Ms Harriet Paisley, Ian Stuart, Ms Gisela Buck, Ms Karen Harris, Mr Tom Pearce, Teresa Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Burden, Richard Havard, Mr Dai Perkins, Toby Tami, Mark Byrne, rh Mr Liam Healey, rh John Pound, Stephen Thomas, Mr Gareth Campbell, Mr Alan Hendrick, Mark Qureshi, Yasmin Thornberry, Emily Campbell, Mr Gregory Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Timms, rh Stephen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hillier, Meg Reed, Mr Jamie Trickett, Jon Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hilling, Julie Reeves, Rachel Turner, Karl Clark, Katy Hodge, rh Margaret Reynolds, Emma Twigg, Derek Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hood, Mr Jim Reynolds, Jonathan Twigg, Stephen Clwyd, rh Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Umunna, Mr Chuka Coaker, Vernon Hunt, Tristram Ritchie, Ms Margaret Vaz, Valerie Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Walley, Joan Connarty, Michael Jackson, Glenda Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Watson, Mr Tom Cooper, Rosie James, Mrs Siân C. Rotheram, Steve Watts, Mr Dave Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Mr Frank Whitehead, Dr Alan Corbyn, Jeremy Jarvis, Dan Roy, Lindsay Wicks, rh Malcolm Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Ruane, Chris Williams, Hywel Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Sarwar, Anas Wilson, Sammy Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Seabeck, Alison Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cryer, John Jones, Helen Shannon, Jim Woodcock, John Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Sharma, Mr Virendra Wright, David Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan Sheerman, Mr Barry Wright, Mr Iain Cunningham, Tony Joyce, Eric Sheridan, Jim Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shuker, Gavin Tellers for the Ayes: Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Simpson, David Phil Wilson and Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Skinner, Mr Dennis Mr David Hamilton Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lazarowicz, Mark David, Mr Wayne Leslie, Chris NOES Davidson, Mr Ian Lewis, Mr Ivan Davies, Geraint Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Adams, Nigel Brine, Mr Steve De Piero, Gloria Love, Mr Andrew Afriyie, Adam Brokenshire, James Denham, rh Mr John Lucas, Caroline Aldous, Peter Brooke, Annette Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Ian Alexander, rh Danny Browne, Mr Jeremy Dobson, rh Frank MacShane, rh Mr Denis Amess, Mr David Bruce, Fiona Docherty, Thomas Mactaggart, Fiona Andrew, Stuart Bruce, rh Malcolm Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Mahmood, Mr Khalid Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Buckland, Mr Robert Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mahmood, Shabana Bacon, Mr Richard Burley, Mr Aidan Dowd, Jim Mann, John Baker, Norman Burns, Conor Doyle, Gemma Marsden, Mr Gordon Baker, Steve Burns, rh Mr Simon Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Baldry, Tony Burrowes, Mr David Dugher, Michael McCann, Mr Michael Barclay, Stephen Burstow, Paul Durkan, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Barker, Gregory Burt, Alistair Eagle, Ms Angela McClymont, Gregg Baron, Mr John Burt, Lorely Eagle, Maria McCrea, Dr William Barwell, Gavin Byles, Dan Edwards, Jonathan McFadden, rh Mr Pat Bebb, Guto Cable, rh Vince Elliott, Julie McGovern, Alison Beith, rh Sir Alan Cairns, Alun Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Jim Bellingham, Mr Henry Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Benyon, Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Beresford, Sir Paul Carmichael, Neil Field, rh Mr Frank McKenzie, Mr Iain Berry, Jake Carswell, Mr Douglas Fitzpatrick, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Bingham, Andrew Cash, Mr William Flello, Robert Meacher, rh Mr Michael Binley, Mr Brian Chishti, Rehman Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Birtwistle, Gordon Chope, Mr Christopher Flynn, Paul Michael, rh Alun Blackwood, Nicola Clappison, Mr James Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, Andrew Blunt, Mr Crispin Clark, rh Greg Francis, Dr Hywel Mitchell, Austin Boles, Nick Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Gapes, Mike Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bone, Mr Peter Clegg, rh Mr Nick Gardiner, Barry Morden, Jessica Bottomley, Sir Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bradley, Karen Colvile, Oliver Glass, Pat Morris, Grahame M. Brady, Mr Graham Cox, Mr Geoffrey Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) Brake, rh Tom Crabb, Stephen Godsiff, Mr Roger Mudie, Mr George Bray, Angie Crockart, Mike Goggins, rh Paul Munn, Meg Brazier, Mr Julian Crouch, Tracey 221 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 222

Davey, Mr Edward Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Davies, David T. C. Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Spencer, Mr Mark (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Davies, Glyn Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Stephenson, Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Stevenson, John de Bois, Nick Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Stewart, Bob Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Iain Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Stewart, Rory Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Stride, Mel Dorries, Nadine Howarth, Mr Gerald O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Sturdy, Julian Drax, Richard Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Huhne, rh Chris Opperman, Guy Swinson, Jo Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, Richard Swire, rh Mr Hugo Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Paice, rh Mr James Syms, Mr Robert Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Owen Thurso, John Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Eustice, George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Tomlinson, Justin Evans, Graham Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Truss, Elizabeth Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Evennett, Mr David Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Uppal, Paul Fallon, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Vaizey, Mr Edward Farron, Tim Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Vara, Mr Shailesh Featherstone, Lynne Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Vickers, Martin Field, Mr Mark Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Foster, rh Mr Don Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Charles Fox,rhDrLiam Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin Francois, rh Mr Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wallace, Mr Ben Freer, Mike Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Walter, Mr Robert Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Ward, Mr David Fuller, Richard Leadsom, Andrea Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Watkinson, Angela Gale, Mr Roger Lee, Jessica Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Weatherley, Mike Garnier, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Mr Laurence Webb, Steve Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Wharton, James George, Andrew Leigh, Mr Edward Rosindell, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Gibb, Mr Nick Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber White, Chris Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Brandon Ruffley, Mr David Whittaker, Craig Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Dr Julian Russell, Bob Wiggin, Bill Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rutley, David Williams, Mr Mark Goldsmith, Zac Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura Williams, Roger Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Williams, Stephen Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Williamson, Gavin Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant Willott, Jenny Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Sharma, Alok Wilson, Mr Rob Gray, Mr James Luff, Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Wollaston, Dr Sarah Grayling, rh Chris Macleod, Mary Simmonds, Mark Wright, Jeremy Green, Damian Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Wright, Simon Greening, Justine May, rh Mrs Theresa Skidmore, Chris Yeo, Mr Tim Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe Young, rh Sir George Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Zahawi, Nadhim Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian Gyimah, Mr Sam McDonnell, John Smith, Sir Robert Tellers for the Noes: Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Soames, rh Nicholas Norman Lamb and Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soubry, Anna James Duddridge Hammond, rh Mr Philip McPartland, Stephen Hammond, Stephen McVey, Esther Question accordingly negatived. Hancock, Matthew Mensch, Louise Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Question Harper, Mr Mark Mercer, Patrick necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Harvey, Nick Milton, Anne Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Clause 29 Hayes, Mr John Morgan, Nicky Heald, Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Heath, Mr David Morris, James CODE OF PRACTICE FOR SURVEILLANCE CAMERA Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen SYSTEMS Hemming, John Mowat, David Amendment made: 20, page 21, line 1, leave out ‘of Henderson, Gordon Mulholland, Greg objects or events’.—(James Brokenshire.) 223 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 224

New Clause 12 Lynne Featherstone: These are largely technical amendments, so I can be brief. New clause 12 confers TAX IN CONNECTION WITH TRANSFER SCHEMES power on the Treasury to make provision varying the ‘(1) The Treasury may by order make provision varying the way that tax provisions will be applied to any property, way in which a relevant tax has effect in relation to— rights or liabilities transferred to the new disclosure and (a) anything transferred under a transfer scheme, or barring service from the Independent Safeguarding Authority and the Criminal Records Bureau. It is standard (b) anything done for the purposes of, or in relation to, a practice that such machinery of Government changes transfer under a transfer scheme. should be tax neutral, and the new clause ensures that (2) The provision which may be made under subsection (1)(a) that is the case in this instance. The other amendments includes, in particular, provision for— in the group make other minor and technical provisions (a) a tax provision not to apply, or to apply with in relation to the establishment of the disclosure and modifications, in relation to anything transferred, barring service. (b) anything transferred to be treated in a specified way for the purposes of a tax provision, (c) the Secretary of State to be required or permitted to Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): determine, or specify the method for determining, Like the Minister, I intend to be relatively brief. Let me anything which needs to be determined for the purposes say clearly that Labour Front Benchers are not against of any tax provision so far as relating to anything creating the disclosure and barring service. We were transferred. concerned, however, that the Government prevented (3) The provision which may be made under subsection (1)(b) full and proper scrutiny of the setting up of the service includes, in particular, provision for— by announcing only halfway through the consideration (a) a tax provision not to apply, or to apply with of the Bill the amendments that would achieve that. We modifications, in relation to anything done for the therefore now have several other Government amendments, purposes of, or in relation to, the transfer, which I recognise are mainly technical in nature, to tidy (b) anything done for the purposes of, or in relation to, the up those originally tabled. transfer to have or not have a specified consequence or be treated in a specified way, I hope that the Minister might be able to help me (c) the Secretary of State to be required or permitted to with a few questions about the disclosure and barring determine, or specify the method for determining, service, particularly on the costs of the new computer anything which needs to be determined for the purposes system that will be created alongside it. It is likely to be of any tax provision so far as relating to anything a considerable spending commitment, and we know done for the purposes of, or in relation to, the transfer. that the Government are very concerned about spending (4) The power to make an order under this section— money at this time. Will the Minister clarify the full cost (a) is exercisable by statutory instrument, of the new computer system and explain the figure of £37 million for web-based maintenance costs mentioned (b) includes power to make consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional, transitory or saving provision, in the impact assessment? (c) may, in particular, be exercised by amending, repealing, In the past, unfortunately, Government IT systems revoking or otherwise modifying any provision made have had a poor record of costs running out of control by or under an enactment (whenever passed or made). and problems with delivery. There were problems with (5) A statutory instrument containing an order under this the CRB checks system when it was first introduced, section is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of and people had to wait a long time to get their checks the House of Commons. through, but it is now working relatively well and they (6) In this section— often get checks within a few days. What reassurance “enactment” includes an Act of the Scottish Parliament, can the Minister offer that the new computer scheme a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for will work effectively and provide the level of protection Wales and Northern Ireland legislation, that we want for children and vulnerable adults during “relevant tax” means income tax, corporation tax, this period of transition from the current scheme? capital gains tax, stamp duty, stamp duty reserve tax or stamp duty land tax, Having said that, Labour Front Benchers are satisfied with the technical nature of the majority of these “tax provision” means any provision— amendments. (a) about a relevant tax, and (b) made by or under an enactment, “transfer scheme” means a transfer scheme under Lynne Featherstone: I thank the hon. Lady for being section 87, brief. I am sure she will remember that in Committee we and references to the transfer of property include the grant of apologised for the lack of time in briefing her about the a lease.’.—(Lynne Featherstone.) joining of the two services. I hope that we made up for Brought up, and read the First time. that somewhat by offering a special briefing to run through the details. The joining of the Independent Safeguarding Authority and the Criminal Records Bureau 5.45 pm has been welcomed on all sides as the right way to go, and I am glad that we have all come to that conclusion. Lynne Featherstone: I beg to move, That the clause be As for the IT costs, this was a value-for-money decision. read a Second time. The IT spend estimate is £200 million over five years, which will be funded by fees. We would have had to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it replace the existing IT regardless of the establishment will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 23, of the DBS. This has been arranged to time with when 24, 64, 29, 30, 32 and 71. the contract would have come to an end. 225 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 226

[Lynne Featherstone] (3A) The Secretary of State must make provision to ensure that the registered person is informed when the criminal records As the hon. Lady says, CRB checks have improved certificate is issued. beyond recognition. As the Minister who receives the (3B) The Secretary of State must make provision to send a correspondence on this issue, I can say that my copy of the criminal record certificate directly to the registered correspondence tray used to be full of complaints about person when the individual consents.”. the time people’s CRB checks had taken. That flow is (4) After section 113B(4) of that Act (enhanced criminal now reduced to a small trickle. record certificates) insert— Question put and agreed to. New clause 12 accordingly read a Second time, and “(4A) The Secretary of State must make provision to ensure that the registered person is informed when the enhanced added to the Bill. criminal records certificate is issued.

New Clause 18 (4B) The Secretary of State must make provision to send a copy of the enhanced criminal record certificate directly to the registered person when the individual consents.”’. INFORMATION INCLUDED ON AN ENHANCED CRIMINAL RECORDS CERTIFICATE ‘After paragraph (b) of subsection (3) of section 113B of the Diana Johnson: Under new clause 18, the barred Police Act 1997 insert— status of an individual would be revealed in a CRB “(c) states whether the applicant is on a barred list maintained check. The House will know that at present, an enhanced by the Independent Safeguarding Authority in relation CRB check may reveal all convictions and cautions, to work with vulnerable adults or children (whichever regardless of whether they are relevant, and allegations is appropriate).”.’.—(Diana Johnson.) made to the police that were not turned into convictions. Brought up, and read the First time. One gets barred status information only if the person will be working in a regulated activity, and the Bill has Diana Johnson: I beg to move, That the clause be read produced a narrower definition of “regulated activity” a Second time. than previously existed. For example, all employed positions in a school are involved in regulated activity and barred Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it status information would be provided for those jobs. will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 111, in clause 66, page 49, leave out A standard or enhanced CRB check does not reveal from line 32 to line 5 on page 53 and insert— barred status. An enhanced CRB check would not reveal that a person had been investigated by experts at ‘(1) In sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 to the the Independent Safeguarding Authority. It would not Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act (inclusion subject to consideration of representations), after paragraph (b) insert— show that allegations had been verified and references sought, and that the person had been able to make “(c) give the person the opportunity to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of a representations. It would not reveal that the Independent panel of at least two persons.”. Safeguarding Authority had come to an informed decision that the person posed a significant danger to children or (2) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 3 of that Schedule (behaviour) insert— vulnerable adults. “(2A) The right to representation must include the right to What is more, many people on the barred list are not present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of even known to the police. That came out in Committee. at least two persons.”. The reason could be that the parents do not want to put (3) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of that Schedule their child through the ordeal of making a formal (risk of harm) insert— complaint to the police, but the school notifies the “(2A) The right to representation must include the right to Independent Safeguarding Authority of concerns about present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of an individual teacher or member of staff. Another at least two persons.”. scenario is that a supply teacher moves from school to (4) After sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 8 of that Schedule school and, although it is quite clear that there is a (inclusion subject to consideration of representations) after (b) problem, the schools just decide not to have the supply insert— teacher back and do not notify the police of their “(c) give the person the opportunity to present evidence concerns. Eventually, the local education authority may and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of a take the view that the ISA should find out why there are panel of at least two persons.”. so many schools where that supply teacher is not welcome. (5) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 9 of that Schedule The ISA might then receive complaints and look at the (behaviour) insert— employment history of the individual and see a pattern “(2A) The right to representation must include the right to of allegations, and the teacher moving on quickly. Again, present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of that might all happen without any formal complaint at least two persons.”. being made to the police. (6) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 11 of that Schedule With vulnerable adults it is often difficult to substantiate (risk of harm) insert— allegations—for example, of theft from dementia patients. “(2A) The right to representation must include the right to A care home might decide not to notify the police, but present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of just to dismiss the employee and notify the ISA. Even at least two persons.”.’. though the police do not always get involved in or know Amendment 117, in clause 78, page 64, line 33, at end about complaints and allegations, such people are clearly insert— a danger to vulnerable people and children, and that ‘(3) After section 113A(3) of the Police Act 1997 (criminal information should be made available to their future record certificates) insert— employers. 227 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 228

It would be a great help to employers, particularly against children have been banned from working with charities and small voluntary sector organisations, if children. In the Bill, the Government propose that they were informed of concerns that the Independent a person convicted of a serious offence should not Safeguarding Authority had looked into, on the basis of automatically be barred from working with children. which an individual had been barred. The Committee For example, under the new proposals a man working received a number of submissions from sports clubs as a lorry driver who had been convicted of raping a and organisations that wanted to know that any information child would not automatically be put on the barred list. about barring would be made available to them when The test that the Bill sets out is that he would be put on working with, teaching or training young people. the list only if he was, had been or might in future be I would like to give the Minister an example and ask engaged in regulated activity relating to children. her whether such a person will be covered by the proposals in the Bill. X is a former teacher who is barred from 6pm working with children following substantiated reports As I said, the formal procedure whereby people are of inappropriate behaviour from three schools. None of automatically put on the barred list is more than 70 years the allegations was passed on to the police, as I have old. It was introduced not by the last Labour Government explained is common. X presents himself as a retired but a long time ago, and I am yet to be convinced by the teacher and volunteers at a primary school. At the Minister that it is necessary to change it at this point. I primary school, he hears children reading and works do not understand why she wants to end a process that one-on-one with the same 10 children every week. Under is simple and straightforward and, I think, has the the current law, the school must check his barred status support of the vast majority of the population. There is and would find out about his history. The school would a very good reason why someone who commits a serious know that information quickly. I understand that schools offence is barred from working with children—because can obtain barred status within 24 hours. they pose a serious risk to children. That should mean My understanding is that under the new law, it would that they are automatically barred from working with be an offence for the school to check his barred status them. The amendment would reinstate the provision of and it would not be given that information. Even if the automatically putting them on the barred list. school followed best practice and conducted an enhanced Under the Bill, a person could be put on the list only CRB check, that would reveal nothing, as no allegations if the test that I have just set out were passed. If the had ever been made to the police. There would be no advice was that they should be put on it, the Government soft information and no criminal convictions on the would allow them to make representations to the ISA CRB check. However, this person would clearly be a before that finally happened. The amendment would go threat to children in the view of the Independent a little further. As I have set out, it would mean a Safeguarding Authority, and would be on the barred presumption that an individual who had committed a list. As I understand it, under the proposals he would serious offence would automatically go on the list, but it not be prevented from working with children. It would would give that individual the right to present evidence be helpful if the Minister explained why she feels it in person and to call witnesses to argue that they should appropriate that information from the many trained be taken off the list. The Joint Committee on Human experts at the Independent Safeguarding Authority— Rights has called for that, and it would strengthen the specialists in this area who are able to analyse information already robust barring procedures employed by the and allegations—should not be made available to schools ISA. and other organisations that wish to rely on that expertise. The report of the Bichard inquiry made it clear that if I am sure that the Minister will also want to respond we want to prevent further brutal murders, we have to to my point about the Bichard inquiry, which as do everything we can to aid information sharing—yet hon. Members know came out after the dreadful the Government have introduced an expensive and Soham murders. The major thrust of the report and unnecessary layer of bureaucracy that will inhibit recommendations on how to avoid another case like the information sharing. I have yet to hear from the Minister Soham murders was that information should be properly why she thinks bringing in the new test will assist in shared between all interested parties. The Independent keeping children and vulnerable adults safer. Safeguarding Authority is the body that has the most I thought it might help the House if I examined some information. All employers, charities, voluntary groups of the characters who, if the Government’s proposals and sports organisations should be able to benefit from were carried, would not be on the barred list in future. its expertise and insight. Levi Bellfield, who, as we know, was the murderer of Moreover, when a CRB form is processed electronically, Milly Dowler and other women, would not be on the barred status comes up immediately. If an employer barred list, because he was a car clamper. Under the test needs to recruit someone urgently and needs the information that the Government have set out, although he clearly speedily, as often happens in the adult care sector posed a threat to young girls, he would not automatically because people become ill or move on quickly, they may go on the barred list. Because Delroy Easton Grant, be tempted to put people into sensitive positions even who preyed on vulnerable elderly victims and has been though they are waiting for a CRB check. I wonder linked to more than 100 offences, was a taxi driver, he whether the Minister could refer to that issue. This would no longer be placed on the list of those barred matter is so important that I would like to test the from working with elderly people if the ISA were applying opinion of the House on new clause 18. the test that the Government want to introduce. Amendment 111, which would amend clause 66, relates Such people pose a threat to vulnerable people—children to people who commit serious offences. Such people are and adults—and should automatically be placed on a currently put on the barred list automatically. Since list of barred people, to help employers and activity 1933, people who have been convicted of serious offences providers identify those who pose a threat and keep 229 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 230 them away from children and vulnerable adults. I believe able to build up all sorts of excuses for why they will that the Government’s new measures will cost more bring it in next week, the week after that or next month. money, and when we know money is tight and we have Perhaps it got lost, or perhaps the dog ate it. I am to watch where every penny is spent, I fail to understand concerned that that could leave employers in a difficult why the Minister wants to introduce the new test. I also position, and that a number of charities and voluntary believe that it will cause confusion and that, as I said, sector groups will find the system very difficult to deal the vast majority of the public do not understand why with. Amendment 117 would allow an employer to know the Government are pursuing it. that a CRB certificate had been issued, and to know The public want people who commit serious offences when an employee was stalling in presenting it to them. to be put on the barred list. A survey by Fair Play For The e-Bulk CRB check is also important for activity Children found that 96% of the population wanted providers. We have had several submissions on the those people to be put on the barred list automatically. subject, but the two key ones that I want to mention Will the Minister explain to the House why she refuses were from the Football Association and Girlguiding to acknowledge public opinion, and exactly what she UK. At the moment, those groups have teams of experts hopes to gain by keeping them off the list? I will wish to who receive and review CRB checks from all around the test the opinion of the House on amendment 111, as country. They tend to get them back within a week of well as new clause 18. the application, and they make decisions quickly. If Amendment 117 is Labour’s final amendment in this someone is on a barred list they know even more group. It would amend the Police Act 1997 so that the quickly—as I have said, usually within 24 hours. CRB Secretary of State must ensure that the registered person forms are quite technical, and it is important that they are who had co-signed a CRB check application would be analysed by trained people. Large employers and charities informed when the certificate was issued. It would employ complex risk management techniques to assess further amend the Act by insisting that the Secretary of individuals and, where appropriate, introduce special State make provision to allow the CRB check certificate procedures to manage any risk that they could pose. to be issued directly to that registered person—when, of It is also likely that the new measures will discourage course, the individual in question had consented. That people from volunteering. We know how important would effectively maintain the status quo so that a CRB volunteers are to the Government, and we know all check would go, for example, to a prospective employer about the big society and encouraging people to give and to an individual at the same time, with the consent their time as volunteers. CRB checks are handled centrally of the applicant. by, for example, the FA and Girlguiding UK, as I have We tabled the amendment because many concerns described, and they are anonymous. A person who have been raised about the proposals for CRB checks. wants to volunteer with the girl guides fills in their There is a great deal of support for the portability of application, which goes to the central Girlguiding UK CRB checks, which is welcomed throughout the House office, where it is dealt with by a team of experts. and throughout the various sectors that use them. However, Because that is dealt with centrally, there is no many companies that submit CRB checks using the embarrassment if that person has a conviction or other e-Bulk system—a practical requirement for large companies information on their CRB check, but it might be that employ many people in registered activities such as embarrassing if they had to deal with the local Girlguiding care home work—are concerned that the way in which commissioner, who may also not be an expert in CRB the Government have designed the system will cause checks, and who may feel that it is better to be safe than chaos. The Bill will cause those companies massive sorry, and refuse that person the right to become a practical difficulties that I do not think the Minister volunteer. Will the new system help people to feel fully appreciated or addressed in Committee. The result confident about volunteering? of those difficulties, I believe, will be fewer CRB checks There is another issue under the new arrangements being undertaken and more loopholes being exploited. that the Government have not recognised, and which We know that people who wish to do harm, particularly they need to address. Under the leadership of my hon. to children, can be very imaginative and manipulative Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), when there is any sign of a loophole in the law, and will the all-party parliamentary group on child protection use whatever means they can to get access to children. I helpfully produced a report that contained a number of am concerned that the new system may present them recommendations, one of which dealt with this very with opportunities to do that. point. The Government need to work with organisations We must also consider prospective employers who are that use the e-Bulk system, such as the FA and Girlguiding, being asked to make CRB check applications for prospective to fully understand the implications of their CRB check employees. They are currently expected to pay £26 for a proposals. standard CRB check, £44 for an enhanced check and £6 for a barred status check. Employers can spend the In their response to the all-party parliamentary group best part of £100 on each prospective employee, but report, the Government state: under the Government’s proposals they would not receive “We are considering what” a copy of the CRB certificate directly. They should be informed of the fact that a CRB certificate has been the changes issued, and of the outcome of the check, with the “will mean for the e-bulk system, and…in particular, what information individual’s consent. should be made available to employers…once that is clear.” I worry that within the group of manipulative and Will the Minister update the House on her current imaginative people who want to get access to vulnerable thinking on CRB checks and the e-Bulk system? What children and adults, some will delay presenting the CRB will the proposals will mean for volunteering with big certificate that is sent directly to them. They may well be organisations and charities? 231 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 232

It is also worth mentioning the small organisations held an inquiry and took evidence from a wide range of that do not have access to specialist help and advice on organisations. Some people spoke for a number of CRB checks, and that are not familiar with the complexity organisations and some spoke in their own right. I am of the system, in which individuals receive different grateful that the Minister read and responded to the types of CRB checks. Has the Minister given any thought group’s report, that she met members of the group, and to what she said in Committee on making information that she has taken on board some of the points made. on the new system available to voluntary and community I echo the concerns of my hon. Friend the shadow groups, and on providing the information required so Minister. We are all concerned about child protection that people fully understand what the system means? and the abuse of children. However, abuse is at times They also need to understand what is happening when difficult to prove, and it is certainly difficult to get someone is trying to hoodwink them, as I have described, convictions. Sometimes, it is difficult to get definitive by pretending that the CRB certificate is not available evidence even when suspicions of individuals have run for some spurious reason. for a long time. Children are told to respect adults, and often, the most vulnerable children are targeted by Jim Shannon: Does the hon. Lady agree that the abusers, so information does not come out easily. Government also need to be clearer in their explanation of how the continuous updating of CRB checks will That is why barred list information is so important, work? Many people are currently unsure. alongside CRB information. It would be a tragedy if people who have criminal records were allowed to work Diana Johnson: The hon. Gentleman makes a good with children, but we know from years of experience point, because how that system will work is unclear. I that people who have raised significant concerns in their cannot get my head around the updated procedures. relationships with children in the past go on to abuse What consent will need to be given? What information them, and in some dreadful cases—thankfully, a minority about employees or volunteers will be made available to of cases—kill them. We have a responsibility to do all employers or voluntary sector groups? When will barring that we can to prevent that, because getting this wrong information be made available? If someone is barred could be catastrophic. while they are employed, will that information be made available readily to an employer? The hon. Gentleman Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): May I take makes a very important point, which illustrates the fact this opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend the that information on how the system will work needs to Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) be made widely available. on the clarity with which she has put her case? I take a keen interest in this matter, and the Independent Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Does Safeguarding Authority is in my constituency. my hon. Friend accept that the current system has its faults? There are too many examples of the wrong The very people that my hon. Friend the Member for person being identified, and of information that is not Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) describes are the ones pertinent to them being attributed to them by a false who gain under the Government’s proposals. I have in CRB check. Would it not make more sense for the mind the words of Sir Roger Singleton, who said that Government to try to streamline the system, so that we the people who will be most concerned about the proposals have a more efficient system designed for the purpose, are parents. Any parent who listened to the speech of rather than adding to the complexity, therefore increasing my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull the chances that such errors will take place and devalue North will be extremely worried about what the the checks? Government propose.

6.15 pm Meg Munn: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, Diana Johnson: My hon. Friend makes a very good because it leads to the point that I wanted to make. It is point. There are also concerns about the use of fraudulent because the risks are so great and the results of getting certificates. Once a number has been allocated, people it wrong are so catastrophic that we need clear information can take certificates to unsuspecting employers and say, and a clear procedure. That might mean that sometimes “This is my CRB certificate. It’s all fine and there’s more is done than is strictly necessary, but in this area nothing to worry about.” Most employers—especially we are not talking about what is strictly necessary. In small employers or voluntary and community groups— this area we have a duty to ensure that vulnerable would accept that at face value. We need to make the children are as safe as possible. I therefore join my hon. system as streamlined as possible, but we also need to Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North in make it as foolproof as possible, and to reduce the use asking the Minister to explain in more detail why barring of fraudulent CRB checks as much as possible. information would not be more readily available. I am reassured by her statement that currently such information On the basis of the points that I have raised, I hope is clearly and easily available. It is inconceivable that we that the Minister can reassure the House on those would not want that to continue. questions, which in effect are about keeping our children and vulnerable people as safe as possible, and about Amendment 117, which deals with criminal record keeping people who should not be working with children certificates, touches on a matter that needs thinking or vulnerable people away from them. through. It might seem straightforward for a certificate to go to the person having the CRB check, but my hon. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I shall Friend has already raised concerns about that. The speak briefly on the issues raised by this group of Christian Forum for Safeguarding has drawn to my proposals. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston attention correspondence between it and the CRB in upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) has already stated, which the CRB confirmed that many more certificates the all-party parliamentary group on child protection are returned marked “undeliverable” when addressed to 233 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 234

[Meg Munn] accept that there should be certain specific exceptions—in the case of applicants to foster or adopt a child, for the applicant than when addressed to the registered example—we are still not persuaded that barred list body. If only one copy is to be sent to the applicant, it information should be provided in other areas. As barring obviously increases the risk that certificates will fail to applies only to those who come within the scope of reach the applicant and so cause further delays. I want regulated activity, it would not be right for an employer to return to a point raised by my hon. Friend. CRB or a volunteer organiser to make a decision based on checks can cover a wide range of offences. For example, barring information where the post falls outside regulated we could be talking about people—often men—in their activity. Bars from working with children or vulnerable 40s or 50s who are volunteering for something and who groups apply to regulated activity: it will be a criminal were involved in a pub brawl when they were in their offence to employ somebody in a regulated activity who early 20s. That kind of information might be on a is barred. However, it does not make sense to disclose certificate, and it could go to the wrong house and be barring information for posts that fall outside that scope. opened by somebody else. There could be an information breach. Under the Government’s proposal, the system could Meg Munn: I am grateful to the Minister for giving be a lot more vulnerable to such things than currently. way, because I understand that she is trying to explain The crucial issue is about the ability of organisations the overall situation. However, is this not precisely trying to recruit a volunteer or someone to a paid where the argument falls down? The whole system is position to understand the situation. My hon. Friend interlinked and questions will arise about what is a has already quoted from the Government’s response to regulated activity. The Government propose that not all the all-party group’s report making it clear that this contact with children will be a regulated activity, but if issue of the e-Bulk system—great word!—has not been somebody poses a risk to children, all contact with clarified. If an organisation is in a position to put in children, even when it appears at that moment to be place systems that it has made work, it seems a terrible well supervised, will pose a risk to children. That is the shame to move to something else. I fully accept, as do point. If someone is considered a risk to children and if my hon. Friends, that the system put in place by the information about them is on the barring list, that previous Government had problems, but we should be information should be provided, regardless of whether addressing those problems and issues, not creating more. the activity is regulated, in order that the person taking We have systems, such as the e-Bulk system, that are on that individual to do the non-regulated activity can working well and which enable organisations and people— decide whether the information on the barring list is for example, a Brown Owl, a Girl Guider or a Scout relevant. leader in a local area—to know, “This is not something that I have to concern myself with. It is done centrally Lynne Featherstone: I shall come on to that because it and there are experienced people looking at it who is a complicated matter to discuss—there is “regulated”, understand the nature of the information returned.” “unregulated”, “supervised”, “unsupervised” and so Now, however, they will feel in a completely different on. Obviously, if an activity is unsupervised, it is regulated, position. That will cause us great concern. so I shall come on to the issues of supervision. In an I welcome the fact that the Minister has sought to establishment such as a school, it will be difficult to respond to the points made by the all-party group when persuade authorities not to pursue enhanced CRB checks. producing the report, but the proposed measure is not The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana the best that this, or any, Government can do. I therefore Johnson) argued that if a referral to the ISA had not ask her to address those issues. been referred to the police, the barring information would not be on the certificate. On the matter, it would Lynne Featherstone: I have always believed that on be helpful if I could progress with my remarks. We both sides of the House we are doing what we believe is disagreed in Committee and I have no doubt that we best for the protection of children and vulnerable adults, will end up disagreeing today as well, but I want to while balancing that with common sense. As mentioned, assure the House that we are acting with the best of the previous scheme would have had 11 million people intentions and drawing the line where we believe appropriate. under its auspices. As we know from all the reports and As I said, bars from working with children or vulnerable everything that we have heard, that was creating a world groups apply to regulated activity, so it does not make of suspicion. We got to the point where a parent sense— volunteering to read to a child in a class had to get a CRB check, even if they were known and so on. We Mrs Chapman rose— wish to strike a balance and bring back a common-sense approach to safeguarding, always with the proviso that Lynne Featherstone: It would be helpful if I could the protection of children and vulnerable adults is explain the position. foremost in our minds, as I am sure it was in the mind of the previous Government when they first conceived of Mrs Chapman: We have lots of time. this scheme following the Bichard inquiry into the Soham murders. Lynne Featherstone: Okay. I shall try to answer some—I hope all—of the points raised today. New clause 18 returns us to our debate in Mrs Chapman: It should not come as a shock to the Committee about whether barred list information should Minister to learn that parents do not want people who be provided on all enhanced criminal record certificates. are barred from working with children to be anywhere As I said then, our policy is that barred list information near their children, regardless of whether they are should be provided only in respect of posts that fall supervised. That is our problem with the Government’s within the scope of “regulated activity”. Although we position. 235 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 236

6.30 pm for enhanced checks. Other drivers are eligible for standard checks, as the hon. Lady said, and that will reveal spent Lynne Featherstone: As I said, I will come on to that and unspent convictions, cautions and warnings. We are in due course, when I talk about barring information considering how best to ensure that vulnerable groups and about what is on the CRB certificates. Ultimately, are protected, and officials have recently had productive the fact that someone is barred is not necessarily the key discussions with relevant stakeholders on this issue. issue—[Interruption.] Well, if someone has been convicted of a sexual assault or other sexual offence, it will be on I will come on to the crux of the argument made by their certificate. The fact that they are barred from the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), regulated activity will not. [Interruption.] Ihavenow which was that some referrals to the ISA from employers, said twice that I am going to cover this matter, so I hope schools and so on involve information that never finds that the hon. Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman) its way to the police and that would therefore not be will let me make some progress. revealed, even in an enhanced CRB check. I was saying that an employer could say, “I’m not giving you this job, We do not want to arrive at a position in which an because you are barred from a completely different area employer could deny a job in a non-regulated activity to of work.” We think that that would be wrong. I want to an applicant on the basis that he or she was barred from make it clear that an enhanced CRB certificate will still regulated activity. In such circumstances, an employer be available to employers and volunteer organisations would effectively be saying, “I’m not giving you this job, that employ people in certain work that involves children because you are barred from a completely different or vulnerable adults but that falls outside the scope of area of work.” That would plainly be wrong, and regulated activity. We will publish detailed proposals in disproportionate to the aims of the disclosure regime. It good time on the implementation of the overall reforms could also lead to legal challenges. to the disclosure and barring arrangements. Diana Johnson: Will the Minister give way? The parts that worry Labour Members, and that we have paid attention to, are the positions that were in Lynne Featherstone: Okay, but I do feel that I am regulated activity and that are now in unregulated activity getting to all the hon. Lady’s points. and therefore not subject to the controls available to regulated activity. Diana Johnson: I am sure that the Minister will get to all my points, but I want to give her an example that fits Diana Johnson: Will the Minister give way? the scenario that she has just described, and that ought to worry us all. It involves a taxi driver. Taxi drivers Lynne Featherstone: Well, all right, but after this I require only a standard CRB check involving the standard must make some progress, because I think we are just disclosure. In this example, the taxi driver was ferrying going round in circles. children from school occasionally, once or twice a month, but numerous accusations that that person had abducted Diana Johnson: I just want to clarify a point. The schoolgirls had been recorded with the ISA, and he was Minister said that there were groups, occupations or in fact barred. The taxi firm did not know that, however. opportunities that would attract enhanced CRB checks As I understand it, the firm had behaved properly in and barring information even though they did not simply carrying out the standard CRB check. Surely the involve regulated activity. Is this new? Is she saying that Minister would accept that, if the firm had known that this is a new group? the person was barred from working with children, that would have affected the jobs that he was given by the Lynne Featherstone: No; either I misspoke or the employer. hon. Lady misheard. Enhanced CRB checks will be available if an employer chooses; it is not a requirement. Lynne Featherstone: A taxi driver who worked with If there is a post in a school that involves unregulated children would be entitled to an enhanced CRB check, activity and the school wishes to have a criminal record which would show up any such convictions. I am going check for the person undertaking that unregulated activity, on to the ISA stuff—[Interruption.] it can do so. Obviously, all conviction information will be in that check, and if it is an enhanced check, it will Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I also include soft, local information from the police. am finding it difficult to understand the discussion on The greater challenge will be in the other direction, these points, given the exchanges that are being made because of the conditioning around child protection. across the Dispatch Box. The Minister does not have to People have become incredibly cautious, and that is to give way if she does not want to; she can go on to make be welcomed, but the Government are trying to say that her points. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull employers and people who run organisations have a North (Diana Johnson) can seek to intervene whenever locus in this; they have a responsibility. It is not just she likes, as can any other Member. I would also appreciate about getting a CRB check; we want employers to make it if interventions were a little briefer. a judgment to ensure that everyone in their establishment is safe to work with children, whether the work is Lynne Featherstone: Thank you, Madam Deputy regulated or unregulated. That is the criterion: when Speaker. they take someone on as an employee or as a volunteer, The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North it is just as important as the CRB check or whether the could produce endless scenarios, but all I was going to person has regulated or unregulated status that employers say in response to the example of the taxi driver is that have their own ways of checking, through references the law has not changed. Taxi drivers have been getting and talking to people, and that they take very enhanced standard CRB checks. Taxi and private hire conscientiously their duties to safeguard children, for workers who work regularly with children are eligible their own conscience and behaviour, in their employ. 237 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 238

[Lynne Featherstone] brought to court so that people can be convicted, but I am concerned that in some cases that will not happen, I should make it clear that the checks are still available for whatever reason. Where the ISA has information to employers. We will publish more details on that, and that someone should be barred from working with we will give more information on statutory and non- children, would it not be appropriate for that information statutory aspects when we get to the next group of also to be passed on to employers, voluntary sector amendments. The disclosures include information on groups and charities? previous criminal convictions and cautions, spent and unspent, and relevant local police information. It is Lynne Featherstone: I do not think that we will reach essential that the fact of a bar be disclosed on an agreement on that point, because we regard it as enhanced CRB certificate for regulated activity, because disproportionate to give barring information in a situation barred people are prohibited by law from doing such that is not appropriate for barring—that is, where there work. It is a criminal offence for someone who is barred is not regulated activity. The concept of the barred to apply for work in regulated activity; similarly, it is an status of individuals not appearing on certificates for offence for an employer knowingly to employ someone positions falling outside regulated activity is not new; on the barred list. Indeed, under the Bill, there is a duty that has been the case. The key changes of our provisions to check whether someone who applying to work in are to the scope and extent of regulated activity, not the regulated activity is barred. application of barring provisions, which remain the For other positions, where an employer has discretion same. We have changed the scope. whether to employ someone or to take them on as a The hon. Lady raised the issue of people who are volunteer, it is even more important that they should see barred being able to have access to children on an the behaviour itself, in the form of convictions, cautions infrequent basis under the current scheme—for example, and local police information, rather than the actual as volunteers in schools. That is the case at the moment. information as to whether there is a bar—this is still I think people who were barred could have access to about regulated activity, not the ISA referral, which I children three times a month—that is, infrequently. will come to in a moment. Together with the other Under the old regime—or the current regime, I should information that the employers will have obtained during say—if there was infrequent contact, people did not the recruitment process, they will then be able to make a have to be checked. They could be checked, but it was decision on whether to employ the person. not mandatory. There will always be people who have One of the subjects that we discussed at length in some contact with children whom parents cannot check. Committee involved the information that arrives at the There were under the previous Government’s scheme: police. Through guidance, we will encourage employers as I say, if contact was infrequent, people were not and volunteer users to ensure that the police, as well as necessarily checked. We cannot eliminate risk entirely, the barring authority, are informed in cases where there but we believe that we are minimising it. is a risk to vulnerable groups. That could then be The hon. Lady raised the case of a former teacher reflected on the CRB certificate, if relevant, and will who was barred from three schools where the information assist the police with their wider protection duties. was not passed to the police. That teacher went on to Although I acknowledge the hon. Lady’s argument volunteer at primary school, working one-on-one with about parents not wanting to involve children in getting 10 kids. As I have said, the enhanced CRB check would rid of somebody who is under suspicion at a school and not show the information, because the case was referred not wanting to refer the matter to the police because to the ISA, but we are saying that in future that information that creates difficult circumstances, to be frank, this should be passed to the police. More importantly, volunteers Government want that referral to be made. That in an unregulated situation will be supervised. It is information must be given to the police. It is absolutely crucial that employers and organisations understand inappropriate not to do so if a school or organisation what is appropriate in terms of supervision and, therefore, suspects that someone is unsuitable to work with children. what is regulated or not regulated activity, which we will We want to take the atmosphere around that situation come to later. The law would then be involved, because away, so that what happens is not just that the case can it would be against the law to employ someone or have be referred to the ISA—which, as the hon. Lady rightly them in unregulated activity if the barred status had not said, uses its excellent skills to impose a discretionary been checked. However, we will come to that in due bar—but, more important, that the information goes to course. the police, and not just because of the employment situation. If the information is on the enhanced Criminal 6.45 pm Records Bureau certificate, the same person—who could be a volunteer or in employment—can also go out of Diana Johnson: I am trying to help the Minister, who that establishment and down to the local park. It is may have said something that I am not sure her officials really important that the information gets through to would agree with about someone who is currently barred the police. I want that point to go out loud and clear. having access to children in school. Perhaps she could Although the hon. Lady raises a valid point, we are consider it again. My understanding of the current law hoping to change the position so that it is no longer the is that schools have to check the barred status of individuals case that people use their discretion to refer only to the in schools, so people barred from working with children ISA, and that the ISA shares that information. would not be in schools at the moment.

Diana Johnson: The Minister is absolutely right that Lynne Featherstone: If they were in regulated activity, the police should be informed where there are allegations they would be barred. It is a duty under the law that that need to be properly investigated and, hopefully, they should be checked. 239 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 240

The hon. Lady also raised the concerns of the Football Let me make a special plea for voluntary groups, Association and Girlguiding UK, but we see no reason which often rely on individuals to give up their time to why the provisions in the Bill should discourage run, for example, the Sunday football league in the local volunteering. In particular, there is no reason why central park. Those groups often do not have great knowledge human resource specialists cannot contrive to take decisions of the CRB system, but would greatly benefit from about whether to take on a new volunteer. In such cases, knowing that the experts at the ISA had looked carefully the prospective volunteer would send their CRB certificate into a person and formed a judgment that they should to the central body rather than the local branch—in this be barred. I still do not understand why the Government case, to the football coach or the guide leader. The are so against sharing that information. Most members e-Bulk system continues. of the general public would think that if someone is on The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) a barred list, that information should be made available asked me to explain continuous updating, and it might to employers and organisations though which that person help those who were not involved in every aspect of the is likely to come into contact with children and vulnerable Committee if I do so. Continuous updating will be an people. I ask the Minister to think hard before turning e-system. An employee will be given an exclusive number. her face against that provision. When they go for a job, they can give that number—their I made it clear that I agree with the Minister about PIN, as it were—to the prospective employer and, sitting the importance of pursuing people through the courts in the interview, that employer can log on with it and whenever possible, and of ensuring that people feel check that person’s CRB status in relation to children, confident about taking allegations to the police where vulnerable adults or both. What will be shown on the they feel that behaviour in a school or care home has screen is either whether there has been any change from been unacceptable. We all support that, but it will not when the last certificate was presented or that person’s always happen. The Minister failed to address those last status. If there is no change, no more information is cases where information is not shared with the police; a needed; if there is a change, the screen will tell the barring decision has been made by the ISA, but that employer that there has been a change to the available information will appear nowhere on a standard or information. Obviously they will then need a new certificate, enhanced CRB certificate. That means that a Sunday so that the employer knows that there has been a football club might well have organising the football teams change and that there is information that needs looking and supervising the children a coach that no one knows at. Given that CRB checks are completely clear 92% of has been barred from working with children. As my the time, the system is obviously very fast. hon. Friend the Member for Darlington said, the vast Amendment 111 would make three substantive changes majority of parents would be horrified to think that such to the barring arrangements. First, it deals with the test a situation could arise when that information is readily for barring decisions set out in clause 66. In considering available from the ISA and could have been provided to the amendment, it is important to examine the provisions keep those children safe. That is an important point. in that clause. The vetting and barring scheme developed I also want to make a plea for small employers that by the last Government was well intentioned, but the do not have large human resources departments and do balance was not right. The scheme that was developed not have the capacity to spend time going through all was over the top and disproportionate. We have made the procedures that the big companies can. I imagine clear our intention to scale back the scheme to common- Tesco and Sainsbury have large HR departments that sense levels, and that is what we are doing. can process applications, take up references and do Time is running out, but let me just say that we are everything else that has to be done, but small employers, prepared to consider some of the suggestions on the with perhaps just two or three people working for them, issuing of the certificate. I will be happy to come back is different. That sort of employer will have to get to to that. grips with a whole new system of CRB checks, online updating and all the rest of it. The Minister fails to Diana Johnson: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the understand the reality of modern businesses in this Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) for her well country or how complicated the new system will appear informed speech. She has considerable experience and to many small businesses. knowledge in child protection, which she has usefully brought to our debates. I know that she, as chair of the Lynne Featherstone: Will the hon. Lady explain how all-party group, works tirelessly to promote the safety much more complicated it will be than the previous of vulnerable children and to ensure that they are kept system? as safe as possible. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman), who has a great deal of expertise, as well. Her interventions were a Diana Johnson: I have set out the problem in the useful contribution to the debate, raising some of the amendments. Making the certificate available only to key issues. the individual rather than to the individual and the I am concerned about the Government’s response to prospective employer, as currently happens, is fraught the genuine concerns expressed by employers and voluntary with difficulties. Those who want to use the system for groups about the information they feel they should have their own ends will find ways around the fact that the to help them in decision making. I still do not understand certificate does not go directly to the employer. why the Minister feels that we should not use the ISA’s great knowledge and expertise in child protection and Lynne Featherstone: It might give the hon. Lady some keeping vulnerable people safe. The ISA looks at all heart if I say that we have listened very carefully to that sorts of information. Why should that information not argument and we are considering whether it would be be made available to prospective employers or voluntary possible to send notification of a certificate that has not groups and charities? been sent, perhaps going even further than she suggests 241 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 242

[Lynne Featherstone] responsibility for their actions, but I fail to understand why the Minister will not allow individuals, organisations in telling the prospective organisation or employer that or employers to have all the information, so that they it is clear of anything that needs checking. As I say, we can make proper decisions about who they employ and are considering that at the moment. who they allow to volunteer in their organisations. I shall divide the House on new clause 18, which Diana Johnson: Let me repeat a comment I made deals with revealing barred status when a CRB check is yesterday in a debate on wheel-clamping: one of the applied for, and I shall also press amendment 111 to problems with this Government is that they rush into clause 66. As we have discussed, the vast majority of legislation without taking the time to consider the practical people in this country would be horrified to know that implications. We are now at the Report stage of the the Government no longer wish to put serious criminals Protection of Freedoms Bill, yet the Minister now says on a barred list to protect children. Even at this late that the Government might well consider looking at the stage, I ask the Minister to think again about whether practicalities of the system that they are going to bring that is the way the Government want to go. in—a system that will cost millions of pounds and cause a great deal of concern to businesses, the voluntary Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. sector and sports groups. I think the Minister should The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 295. reflect on that. Division No. 360] [7 pm Lynne Featherstone: I think the hon. Lady should reflect on the fact that we have listened, that we are AYES working with all the associations and that we are willing Abrahams, Debbie Cunningham, Mr Jim to make changes, whatever stage of the Bill we are at. Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Tony Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Curran, Margaret Diana Johnson: Goodness, it is like the Health and Alexander, Heidi Dakin, Nic Social Care Bill all over again! At this point, perhaps I Allen, Mr Graham Danczuk, Simon should move on and speak to the Opposition amendments. Anderson, Mr David Darling, rh Mr Alistair Ashworth, Jonathan David, Mr Wayne I genuinely believe that the protection of children and Austin, Ian Davidson, Mr Ian vulnerable adults is a matter of concern to us all, in all Bailey, Mr Adrian Davies, Geraint parts of the House; we want to make sure that we get Bain, Mr William De Piero, Gloria this right. That is why the Labour Front-Bench team Balls, rh Ed Denham, rh Mr John tabled the amendments, based on the advice of experts Banks, Gordon Dobbin, Jim in the field and in response to the organisations that are Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dobson, rh Frank asking for information to be made available to them so Bayley, Hugh Docherty, Thomas that they can do the right thing and keep children and Beckett, rh Margaret Dodds, rh Mr Nigel vulnerable adults safe. Begg, Dame Anne Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Bell, Sir Stuart Dowd, Jim I am worried by the Minister’s reluctance to acknowledge Benn, rh Hilary Doyle, Gemma some of the important issues. The taxi driver example I Berger, Luciana Dromey, Jack provided is a real-life example that was pointed out to Betts, Mr Clive Dugher, Michael me yesterday. It applies to someone who, I accept, is not Blackman-Woods, Roberta Durkan, Mark working in regulated activity. The standard criminal Blenkinsop, Tom Eagle, Ms Angela record check is the one normally used for taxi drivers, Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Maria but this person was working with children on an irregular Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Edwards, Jonathan basis, despite the clear allegations that the person had Brennan, Kevin Elliott, Julie wanted to abduct children in the past. The taxi company, Brown, Lyn Esterson, Bill which acted perfectly reasonably in the belief that this was Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Evans, Chris a person with no convictions, allowed him to go out and Brown, Mr Russell Field, rh Mr Frank ferry children around once or twice a month. What Bryant, Chris Fitzpatrick, Jim Burden, Richard Flello, Robert he had done was on his record, but the taxi company Byrne, rh Mr Liam Flint, rh Caroline did not have access to the information. Many people would Campbell, Mr Alan Flynn, Paul be worried to know that such information was not made Campbell, Mr Gregory Fovargue, Yvonne available to an employer who was trying to do their best. Campbell, Mr Ronnie Francis, Dr Hywel Chapman, Mrs Jenny Gapes, Mike Lynne Featherstone: The situation that the hon. Lady Clark, Katy Gilmore, Sheila raises arises under the existing rules. Clarke, rh Mr Tom Glass, Pat Clwyd, rh Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary Diana Johnson: The problem is that the barring Coaker, Vernon Godsiff, Mr Roger information is not made available. The point of our new Coffey, Ann Goggins, rh Paul clause is to ensure that barring information relating to Connarty, Michael Goodman, Helen Cooper, Rosie Greatrex, Tom individuals judged to be a threat to children should be Cooper, rh Yvette Green, Kate made available when someone applies for a CRB check. Corbyn, Jeremy Griffith, Nia That is the point. Creagh, Mary Gwynne, Andrew The Minister made a point about locus and about Creasy, Stella Hain, rh Mr Peter employers and voluntary groups making judgments Cruddas, Jon Hamilton, Fabian using their own common sense. Of course we want Cryer, John Hanson, rh Mr David people to do that; of course we want people to take Cunningham, Alex Harman, rh Ms Harriet 243 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 244

Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Bacon, Mr Richard Ellwood, Mr Tobias Havard, Mr Dai Osborne, Sandra Baker, Norman Elphicke, Charlie Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Baker, Steve Eustice, George Hendrick, Mark Paisley, Ian Baldry, Tony Evans, Graham Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pearce, Teresa Barclay, Stephen Evans, Jonathan Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby Barker, Gregory Fabricant, Michael Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen Baron, Mr John Farron, Tim Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Barwell, Gavin Featherstone, Lynne Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Jamie Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Bellingham, Mr Henry Freer, Mike Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Jonathan Beresford, Sir Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda Berry, Jake Gale, Mr Roger James, Mrs Siân C. Ritchie, Ms Margaret Bingham, Andrew Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Binley, Mr Brian Garnier, Mark Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Boles, Nick Gilbert, Stephen Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Bone, Mr Peter Glen, John Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Bradley, Karen Goldsmith, Zac Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Brady, Mr Graham Goodwill, Mr Robert Joyce, Eric Seabeck, Alison Brake, rh Tom Gove, rh Michael Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim Bray, Angie Graham, Richard Kendall, Liz Sharma, Mr Virendra Brazier, Mr Julian Gray, Mr James Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Brine, Mr Steve Grayling, rh Chris Lazarowicz, Mark Sheridan, Jim Brokenshire, James Green, Damian Leslie, Chris Shuker, Gavin Brooke, Annette Greening, Justine Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Simpson, David Browne, Mr Jeremy Griffiths, Andrew Love, Mr Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis Bruce, Fiona Gummer, Ben Bruce, rh Malcolm Lucas, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Gyimah, Mr Sam Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, rh Mr Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Hague, rh Mr William Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Angela Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Nick Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan Mann, John Smith, Owen Burns, rh Mr Simon Hammond, rh Mr Philip Marsden, Mr Gordon Spellar, rh Mr John Burrowes, Mr David Hammond, Stephen McCabe, Steve Straw, rh Mr Jack Burstow, Paul Hancock, Matthew McCann, Mr Michael Stringer, Graham Burt, Alistair Harper, Mr Mark McCarthy, Kerry Stuart, Ms Gisela Burt, Lorely Byles, Dan Harrington, Richard McClymont, Gregg Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry McCrea, Dr William Cable, rh Vince Harris, Rebecca Tami, Mark McDonagh, Siobhain Cairns, Alun Hart, Simon Thomas, Mr Gareth McDonnell, John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harvey, Nick Thornberry, Emily McFadden, rh Mr Pat Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Timms, rh Stephen McGovern, Alison Carmichael, Neil Hayes, Mr John Trickett, Jon McGovern, Jim Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Oliver Turner, Karl McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Cash, Mr William Heath, Mr David Twigg, Derek McKechin, Ann Chishti, Rehman Heaton-Harris, Chris Twigg, Stephen McKenzie, Mr Iain Chope, Mr Christopher Hemming, John Umunna, Mr Chuka McKinnell, Catherine Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon Vaz, Valerie Meacher, rh Mr Michael Clark, rh Greg Hendry, Charles Walley, Joan Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Mearns, Ian Herbert, rh Nick Michael, rh Alun Watson, Mr Tom Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Miller, Andrew Watts, Mr Dave Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Mitchell, Austin Whitehead, Dr Alan Crabb, Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Moon, Mrs Madeleine Wicks, rh Malcolm Crockart, Mike Holloway, Mr Adam Morden, Jessica Williams, Hywel Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wilson, Sammy Davey, Mr Edward Horwood, Martin Morris, Grahame M. Winnick, Mr David Davies, David T. C. Howarth, Mr Gerald (Easington) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie (Monmouth) Davies, Glyn Howell, John Mudie, Mr George Woodcock, John Munn, Meg Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, rh Simon Wright, David Murphy, rh Paul de Bois, Nick Huhne, rh Chris Wright, Mr Iain Murray, Ian Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Nandy, Lisa Tellers for the Ayes: Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Nash, Pamela Mr David Hamilton and Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart O’Donnell, Fiona Phil Wilson Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid NOES Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Johnson, Gareth Adams, Nigel Amess, Mr David Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Afriyie, Adam Andrew, Stuart Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Aldous, Peter Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David 245 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 246

Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Williamson, Gavin Yeo, Mr Tim Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Willott, Jenny Young, rh Sir George Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Wilson, Mr Rob Zahawi, Nadhim Kirby, Simon Redwood, rh Mr John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Tellers for the Noes: Knight, rh Mr Greg Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wright, Jeremy Miss Chloe Smith and Kwarteng, Kwasi Reevell, Simon Wright, Simon Norman Lamb Latham, Pauline Reid, Mr Alan Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Hugh Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, Mr Laurence Question accordingly negatived. Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew Lefroy, Jeremy Rudd, Amber Clause 63 Leigh, Mr Edward Ruffley, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Russell, Bob RESTRICTION OF SCOPE OF REGULATED ACTIVITIES: Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David CHILDREN Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura Lewis, Dr Julian Scott, Mr Lee 7.15 pm Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Selous, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Diana Johnson: I beg to move amendment 112, in Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok page 45, leave out lines 22 to 24. Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Loughton, Tim Simmonds, Mark Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this Lucas, Caroline Simpson, Mr Keith it will be convenient to discuss the following: Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris Amendment 114, in page 45, line 22, leave out ‘day to Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry day’ and insert ‘close and constant’. Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Sir Robert Amendment 115, in page 46, line 27, leave out ‘day to Maynard, Paul Soames, rh Nicholas day’ and insert ‘close and constant’. McCartney, Jason Soubry, Anna Amendment 113, in page 46, leave out lines 29 to 40. McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Amendment 116, in page 46, line 37, leave out ‘day to McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark day’ and insert ‘close and constant’. McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Government amendments 22 and 63. McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew McVey, Esther Stevenson, John Mensch, Louise Stewart, Bob Diana Johnson: We debated regulated activity and Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain supervision in Committee. [Interruption.] These Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Rory amendments address those issues. [Interruption.] Metcalfe, Stephen Stride, Mel Miller, Maria Stuart, Mr Graham Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I ask those Members Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian who are leaving the Chamber to do so quietly while we Milton, Anne Swayne, rh Mr Desmond continue our consideration of the Bill. This is a timed Moore, rh Michael Swinson, Jo debate. Morgan, Nicky Swire, rh Mr Hugo Morris, Anne Marie Syms, Mr Robert Diana Johnson: As I was saying, these amendments Morris, James Tapsell, rh Sir Peter deal with regulated activity relating to children and we Mosley, Stephen Thurso, John discussed that, and the closely related issue of supervision, Mowat, David Timpson, Mr Edward at length in Committee. I should make it clear that these Mulholland, Greg Tomlinson, Justin are probing amendments and I will not press any of Munt, Tessa Truss, Elizabeth them to a Division. I would, however, be interested to Murray, Sheryll Turner, Mr Andrew hear the Minister’s views on the issues that the amendments Murrison, Dr Andrew Uppal, Paul address. Neill, Robert Vara, Mr Shailesh We have concerns about the current drafting of these Newmark, Mr Brooks Vickers, Martin provisions. If a person has contact with a child it will Newton, Sarah Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa generally be in regulated activity, but that is not always Nokes, Caroline Walker, Mr Charles the case. For instance, a volunteer in a school classroom Norman, Jesse Walker, Mr Robin where there is a teacher present would not be seen to be Nuttall, Mr David Wallace, Mr Ben in regulated activity so would not be subject to any form Offord, Mr Matthew Walter, Mr Robert of Criminal Records Bureau check or barred status Ollerenshaw, Eric Ward, Mr David check. Opperman, Guy Watkinson, Angela Ottaway, Richard Weatherley, Mike The Sport and Recreation Alliance, Fair Play for Parish, Neil Webb, Steve Children and other charities have highlighted the problems Pawsey, Mark Wharton, James in using the notion of supervision for deciding whether Penning, Mike Wheeler, Heather a person is in a position to exploit their relationship Penrose, John White, Chris with children. That person could, as I have just said, be Percy, Andrew Whittaker, Craig a volunteer in a classroom listening to children read, or Perry, Claire Wiggin, Bill a volunteer helping the school caretaker, and they are Phillips, Stephen Williams, Mr Mark therefore able to build relationships with the pupils as Pincher, Christopher Williams, Roger they carry out their voluntary role. The problem is not Poulter, Dr Daniel Williams, Stephen the activity they are performing, which could well be 247 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 248 properly supervised; rather, it is the fact that they are A survey conducted by the National Confederation building relationships with children which they might of Parent Teacher Associations suggested that three go on to exploit. The charities I mentioned point out quarters of parents want background checks to be that supervision is an inappropriate notion in this context carried out unless they have personally chosen the person as it ignores this secondary access that can be used to who has access to their child. The brief on which the build up a relationship with a child or vulnerable adult. National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children If someone is in such a position of trust, they might led stated: later take action that could be detrimental to the child “We are concerned that the proposed definition of regulated or vulnerable adult. activity does not cover some groups of people who have frequent and close contact with children. This creates risks for children. Those who seek to harm children can be predatory and manipulative. Meg Munn: May I reiterate the concern that is felt? If certain types of work are exempt from vetting and barring, in The failure to provide barred status information on some sectors or settings, but not in others, dangerous adults are people in these unregulated areas is precisely the loophole likely to target those organisations with weaker arrangements.” that the Government should be closing, because if It continues: somebody is a risk to children and is having regular “Our key outstanding concern is about the exclusion of supervised contact with them, albeit supervised, the person who is work from regulated activity: The Bill exempts many positions taking them on as a volunteer should have the necessary from regulated activity simply by virtue of them being under information to decide whether that is appropriate. ‘regular day to day supervision’. However supervised employees and volunteers are still able to develop relationships with children which could be exploited. For example, a volunteer teaching Diana Johnson: My hon. Friend puts the case very assistant in a classroom of 30 children, with only light-touch well, and I hope the Minister will reflect on the issue of supervision by the classroom teacher, has plenty of opportunity barred status information not being made available—which to develop inappropriate relationships and groom children. we have just voted on—and on this whole area of The definition of ‘regular day to day supervision’ is not sufficient supervision, and consider whether to redefine or remove because it could be understood to include individuals who have a entirely the concept of supervision. ‘supervisor’ on site, but who are able to work with groups of children on their own for significant periods of time, with no one Let me discuss the example of David Lawrence. For directly supervising their work.” many years he was a football coach volunteering for a The first recommendation in the report by the all-party team in a junior league in the Avon area. In the late group on child protection was to tighten up the definition 1990s, working with Fair Play for Children, the Football of “supervision”. In its response to that report, the League tightened its safeguarding procedures and uncovered Home Office said that it agreed that regulated activity a string of allegations made against Mr Lawrence dating should cover all those positions where individuals have back to the 1970s, but he had no convictions. He was close contact and can develop trusting relationships removed from the football club and shortly afterwards with children. Unfortunately, the Government have not was convicted of an offence against a young boy.Shockingly, tabled any amendments to allow us to deal with that. just two months after release, in the early 2000s, he was once again volunteering at a local football club. It was a We welcome Government amendments 22 and 63. club in a league affiliated with the Football Association, We are glad that the Government have heeded the calls but it was not conducting even basic checks on those made by the Opposition and by leading charities in the who volunteered with it. Mr Lawrence was in a series of area, including the NSPCC, to introduce statutory guidance supervised volunteer positions, but if this Bill is passed on the issue of supervision. in its current form there will be no legal requirement to conduct any checks on his background. The case shows Jim Shannon: One of the concerns that many people that statutory regulation is needed to force activity and lots of organisations have about supervision—this providers to conduct background checks on individuals. has been expressed to me and I suspect to many others Because so much of the relevant information is often in the House—is the level of complexity and the degree soft information—we have just debated that at length—these of risk involved. Does the hon. Lady feel that the background checks should go through the Independent Government should reconsider that issue and how they Safeguarding Authority. can best address it to everyone’s satisfaction? A redefinition of “supervision” is set out in amendments 114 to 116, which seek to deal with the Diana Johnson: The hon. Gentleman makes a very Government’s definition of the term. We discussed that important point. All members of the Public Bill Committee at great length in Committee, including a number of had real concerns about this issue, and wanted further different options for the definition. Using a definition explanation and statutory guidance to be produced by of “day to day” supervision to cover people such as a the Government. We are therefore pleased that these football coach or an assistant in a school classroom is amendments will assist that definition, but we are also not sufficient, as it allows individuals to be left unsupervised concerned that we have not had an opportunity in the for long periods. For example, a football coach could House to debate and discuss exactly what “regulated take the same group of children to a different part of a activity” and “supervision” are, how they fit together playing field regularly—on a weekly basis—and that is and whether or not we need to revisit the matter. I hope of concern. The definition would also allow a volunteer the Minister will be able to give an assurance that the at a drama group to teach mime to a group of children protection set out in the Bill and these Government in a different room from the person supposed to be amendments will be sufficient to deal with the kind of supervising them. Someone with that ability to take examples that I have given, where people have been able part in activities away from where their supervisor is to abuse their position in schools, charities or other should be subject to background checks. voluntary sector groups. 249 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 250

[Diana Johnson] Clause 66

The all-party group’s second recommendation was ALTERATION OF TEST FOR BARRING DECISIONS that the Government should introduce statutory guidance, Amendment proposed: 111, page 49, leave out from so again this move is to be welcomed. I would be line 32 to line 5 on page 53 and insert— grateful if the Minister could respond to those points. ‘(1) In sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 to the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act (inclusion subject to Lynne Featherstone: There is not much time available, consideration of representations), after paragraph (b) insert— so I shall be brief. There was considerable discussion in “(c) give the person the opportunity to present evidence Committee about the nature of “supervision”. The Bill and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of a describes “supervised work” as being panel of at least two persons.”. “any such work which is, on a regular basis, subject to the day to (2) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 3 of that Schedule day supervision of another person who is engaging in regulated (behaviour) insert— activity relating to children”. “(2A) The right to representation must include the right to That is a tight definition. Supervision must be ongoing, present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of so a once-a-week meeting between the supervisor and at least two persons.”. supervised would not meet the requirement. The supervision (3) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of that Schedule must be on a daily basis and it must be done by (risk of harm) insert— someone who is in regulated activity themselves and, “(2A) The right to representation must include the right to therefore, has been checked against the barred list. present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of We believe that our proposals in this part of the Bill at least two persons.”. strike a better balance between the roles played by the (4) After sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 8 of that Schedule state and the employers in situ in protecting the vulnerable. (inclusion subject to consideration of representations) after (b) Those activities presenting the greatest risks, such as insert— unsupervised work with children or vulnerable adults, “(c) give the person the opportunity to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of a remain subject to the central barring and vetting panel of at least two persons.”. arrangements. We do not think those arrangements are (5) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 9 of that Schedule necessary where regular supervision takes place on a (behaviour) insert— daily basis. I should emphasise that that does not mean that checks should not, or cannot, be carried out in “(2A) The right to representation must include the right to present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of relation to work that falls outside regulated activity. at least two persons.”. Lastly, I wish to say that I am glad that the hon. Lady (6) After sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 11 of that Schedule is pleased with our movement on statutory guidance. (risk of harm) insert— “(2A) The right to representation must include the right to Diana Johnson: As I said, I do not intend to press the present evidence and call witnesses at an oral hearing in front of amendment to a Division and I am pleased that the at least two persons.”.’.—(Diana Johnson.) Government have seen the sense in having statutory Question put, That the amendment be made. guidance on supervision. It is unfortunate that the House has not had the opportunity to consider any The House divided: Ayes 221, Noes 290. draft guidance that the Government might wish to Division No. 361] [7.30 pm introduce, although I assume that we will see that later in the day. AYES Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, Lyn Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way; I Abrahams, Debbie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas am conscious of the time. Does she feel that this measure Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Brown, Mr Russell is about reducing the number of those being checked? If Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bryant, Chris it is, it is flawed. That is one of my concerns. Most Alexander, Heidi Burden, Richard employers will carry out a non-regulated activity that Allen, Mr Graham Byrne, rh Mr Liam will not require the barred list information or an enhanced Anderson, Mr David Campbell, Mr Alan disclosure. In other words, things will thereby not be Ashworth, Jonathan Campbell, Mr Gregory done in the way they should to get full disclosure. I Austin, Ian Campbell, Mr Ronnie know that we are not going to divide the House on this Bailey, Mr Adrian Chapman, Mrs Jenny point, but I am very concerned about what it means. Bain, Mr William Clark, Katy Balls, rh Ed Clarke, rh Mr Tom Banks, Gordon Clwyd, rh Ann Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Does the Barron, rh Mr Kevin Coaker, Vernon hon. Lady wish to withdraw the amendment? Bayley, Hugh Coffey, Ann Beckett, rh Margaret Connarty, Michael Diana Johnson: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Begg, Dame Anne Cooper, Rosie amendment. Bell, Sir Stuart Cooper, rh Yvette Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Benn, rh Hilary Corbyn, Jeremy Berger, Luciana Creagh, Mary 7.30 pm Betts, Mr Clive Creasy, Stella Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cruddas, Jon Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, 10 October). Blenkinsop, Tom Cryer, John The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Alex for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cunningham, Mr Jim time (Standing Order No. 83E). Brennan, Kevin Cunningham, Tony 251 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 252

Curran, Margaret Love, Mr Andrew Spellar, rh Mr John Walley, Joan Danczuk, Simon Lucas, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Watson, Mr Tom Darling, rh Mr Alistair Mactaggart, Fiona Stringer, Graham Watts, Mr Dave David, Mr Wayne Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stuart, Ms Gisela Whitehead, Dr Alan Davidson, Mr Ian Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wilson, Phil Davies, Geraint Mann, John Tami, Mark Wilson, Sammy De Piero, Gloria Marsden, Mr Gordon Thomas, Mr Gareth Winnick, Mr David Denham, rh Mr John McCabe, Steve Thornberry, Emily Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Dobbin, Jim McCann, Mr Michael Timms, rh Stephen Woodcock, John Dobson, rh Frank McCarthy, Kerry Trickett, Jon Wright, David Docherty, Thomas McClymont, Gregg Turner, Karl Wright, Mr Iain Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McCrea, Dr William Twigg, Derek Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Dowd, Jim McDonnell, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Nic Dakin and Doyle, Gemma McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, Valerie Graham Jones Dromey, Jack McGovern, Alison Dugher, Michael McGovern, Jim NOES Durkan, Mark McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Eagle, Ms Angela McKechin, Ann Adams, Nigel Clark, rh Greg Eagle, Maria McKenzie, Mr Iain Afriyie, Adam Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Edwards, Jonathan McKinnell, Catherine Aldous, Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Elliott, Julie Meacher, rh Mr Michael Amess, Mr David Colvile, Oliver Esterson, Bill Mearns, Ian Andrew, Stuart Cox, Mr Geoffrey Evans, Chris Michael, rh Alun Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Crockart, Mike Fitzpatrick, Jim Miller, Andrew Bacon, Mr Richard Crouch, Tracey Flello, Robert Mitchell, Austin Baker, Norman Davey, Mr Edward Flint, rh Caroline Moon, Mrs Madeleine Baker, Steve Davies, David T. C. Flynn, Paul Morden, Jessica Baldry, Tony (Monmouth) Fovargue, Yvonne Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Barclay, Stephen Davies, Glyn Francis, Dr Hywel Morris, Grahame M. Barker, Gregory Davis, rh Mr David Gapes, Mike (Easington) Baron, Mr John de Bois, Nick Gilmore, Sheila Mudie, Mr George Barwell, Gavin Dinenage, Caroline Glass, Pat Munn, Meg Bebb, Guto Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Glindon, Mrs Mary Murphy, rh Paul Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorries, Nadine Godsiff, Mr Roger Murray, Ian Bellingham, Mr Henry Doyle-Price, Jackie Goggins, rh Paul Nandy, Lisa Benyon, Richard Drax, Richard Goodman, Helen Nash, Pamela Beresford, Sir Paul Duddridge, James Greatrex, Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Berry, Jake Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Green, Kate Onwurah, Chi Bingham, Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip Griffith, Nia Osborne, Sandra Binley, Mr Brian Ellis, Michael Gwynne, Andrew Owen, Albert Blackwood, Nicola Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hain, rh Mr Peter Paisley, Ian Blunt, Mr Crispin Elphicke, Charlie Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Boles, Nick Eustice, George Hamilton, Fabian Perkins, Toby Bradley, Karen Evans, Graham Hanson, rh Mr David Pound, Stephen Brady, Mr Graham Evans, Jonathan Harman, rh Ms Harriet Qureshi, Yasmin Brake, rh Tom Fabricant, Michael Harris, Mr Tom Reed, Mr Jamie Bray, Angie Farron, Tim Havard, Mr Dai Reeves, Rachel Brazier, Mr Julian Featherstone, Lynne Healey, rh John Reynolds, Emma Brine, Mr Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Hendrick, Mark Reynolds, Jonathan Brokenshire, James Freeman, George Hepburn, Mr Stephen Riordan, Mrs Linda Brooke, Annette Freer, Mike Hillier, Meg Ritchie, Ms Margaret Browne, Mr Jeremy Fullbrook, Lorraine Hilling, Julie Robertson, John Bruce, Fiona Gale, Mr Roger Hodge, rh Margaret Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bruce, rh Malcolm Garnier, Mark Hood, Mr Jim Rotheram, Steve Buckland, Mr Robert George, Andrew Hopkins, Kelvin Roy, Mr Frank Burley, Mr Aidan Gibb, Mr Nick Hunt, Tristram Roy, Lindsay Burns, Conor Gilbert, Stephen Irranca-Davies, Huw Ruane, Chris Burns, rh Mr Simon Glen, John Jackson, Glenda Sarwar, Anas Burrowes, Mr David Goldsmith, Zac James, Mrs Siân C. Seabeck, Alison Burstow, Paul Goodwill, Mr Robert Jamieson, Cathy Shannon, Jim Burt, Alistair Gove, rh Michael Jarvis, Dan Sharma, Mr Virendra Burt, Lorely Graham, Richard Johnson, Diana Sheerman, Mr Barry Byles, Dan Gray, Mr James Jones, Helen Sheridan, Jim Cairns, Alun Grayling, rh Chris Jones, Susan Elan Shuker, Gavin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Green, Damian Joyce, Eric Simpson, David Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Greening, Justine Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Skinner, Mr Dennis Carmichael, Neil Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Carswell, Mr Douglas Griffiths, Andrew Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Cash, Mr William Gummer, Ben Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Angela Chishti, Rehman Gyimah, Mr Sam Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Chope, Mr Christopher Hague, rh Mr William Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Owen Clappison, Mr James Halfon, Robert 253 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 254

Hames, Duncan Miller, Maria Stuart, Mr Graham Weatherley, Mike Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Stunell, Andrew Webb, Steve Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Sturdy, Julian Wheeler, Heather Hancock, Matthew Moore, rh Michael Swayne, rh Mr Desmond White, Chris Hancock, Mr Mike Morgan, Nicky Swinson, Jo Whittaker, Craig Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wiggin, Bill Harrington, Richard Morris, James Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Mr Mark Harris, Rebecca Mosley, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Roger Hart, Simon Mowat, David Timpson, Mr Edward Williams, Stephen Harvey, Nick Mulholland, Greg Tomlinson, Justin Williamson, Gavin Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Munt, Tessa Truss, Elizabeth Willott, Jenny Hayes, Mr John Murray, Sheryll Turner, Mr Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Heald, Oliver Murrison, Dr Andrew Uppal, Paul Wollaston, Dr Sarah Heath, Mr David Neill, Robert Vara, Mr Shailesh Wright, Jeremy Heaton-Harris, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Vickers, Martin Wright, Simon Hemming, John Newton, Sarah Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Yeo, Mr Tim Henderson, Gordon Nokes, Caroline Walker, Mr Robin Young, rh Sir George Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Wallace, Mr Ben Zahawi, Nadhim Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Walter, Mr Robert Tellers for the Noes: Hollingbery, George Offord, Mr Matthew Ward, Mr David Stephen Crabb and Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Watkinson, Angela Norman Lamb Holloway, Mr Adam Opperman, Guy Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Horwood, Martin Parish, Neil Question accordingly negatived. Howell, John Paterson, rh Mr Owen Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark Clause 76 Huhne, rh Chris Penning, Mike MINOR AMENDMENTS Huppert, Dr Julian Penrose, John Hurd, Mr Nick Percy, Andrew Amendment made: 22, page 64, line 16, at end insert— Jackson, Mr Stewart Perry, Claire ‘(6) After paragraph 5 of Schedule 4 to that Act (regulated James, Margot Phillips, Stephen activity relating to children) insert— Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher “Guidance Jenkin, Mr Bernard Poulter, Dr Daniel 5A (1) The Secretary of State must give guidance for the Johnson, Gareth Prisk, Mr Mark purpose of assisting regulated activity providers and personnel Johnson, Joseph Pugh, John suppliers in deciding whether supervision is of such a kind that, Jones, Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic as a result of paragraph 1(2B)(b), 2(3A) or 2(3B)(b), the person Jones, Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John being supervised would not be engaging in regulated activity Jones, Mr Marcus Rees-Mogg, Jacob relating to children. Kawczynski, Daniel Reevell, Simon (2) Before giving guidance under this paragraph, the Secretary Kelly, Chris Reid, Mr Alan of State must consult the Welsh Ministers. Kirby, Simon Robertson, Hugh (3) The Secretary of State must publish guidance given under Knight, rh Mr Greg Robertson, Mr Laurence this paragraph. Kwarteng, Kwasi Rogerson, Dan Latham, Pauline Rosindell, Andrew (4) A regulated activity provider or a personnel supplier must, Laws, rh Mr David Rudd, Amber in exercising any functions under this Act, have regard to Leadsom, Andrea Ruffley, Mr David guidance for the time being given under this paragraph.”’.— Lee, Jessica Russell, Bob (Lynne Featherstone.) Lee, Dr Phillip Rutley, David Leigh, Mr Edward Sandys, Laura Clause 87 Leslie, Charlotte Scott, Mr Lee TRANSFER SCHEMES IN CONNECTION WITH ORDERS Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Selous, Andrew UNDER SECTION 85 Lewis, Brandon Shapps, rh Grant Lewis, Dr Julian Sharma, Alok Amendments made: 23, page 70, line 43, leave out Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shelbrooke, Alec from beginning to end of line 2 on page 71 and insert— Lopresti, Jack Simmonds, Mark ‘(7) For the purposes of this section— Lord, Jonathan Simpson, Mr Keith (a) references to rights and liabilities of ISA include Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris references to rights and liabilities of ISA relating to a Luff, Peter Smith, Miss Chloe contract of employment, and Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry (b) references to rights and liabilities of the Secretary of Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian State include references to rights and liabilities of the May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Sir Robert Crown relating to the terms of employment of Maynard, Paul Soames, rh Nicholas individuals in the civil service. McCartney, Jason Soubry, Anna (7A) Accordingly, a transfer scheme may, in particular, McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline provide— McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark (a) for an employee of ISA or (as the case may be) an McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John individual employed in the civil service to become an McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew employee of DBS, McVey, Esther Stevenson, John (b) for the individual’s contract of employment with ISA Mensch, Louise Stewart, Bob or (as the case may be) terms of employment in the Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain civil service to have effect (subject to any necessary Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Rory modifications) as the terms of the individual’s contract Metcalfe, Stephen Stride, Mel of employment with DBS, 255 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 256

(c) for the transfer to DBS of rights and liabilities of ISA (ii) Parliament has met after a dissolution but the first or (as the case may be) the Crown under or in connection Queen’s Speech of the Parliament has not yet with the individual’s terms of employment.’. taken place, and Amendment 24, page 71, leave out lines 8 and 9.—(Lynne (b) the Secretary of State considers that it is necessary by Featherstone.) reason of urgency to make such an order. (2) A temporary extension order is an order which provides, in Clause 97 relation to the period of three months beginning with the coming into force of the order, for paragraphs 36 and 37 to be read INTERPRETATION:CHAPTER 4 as if— Amendment made: 25, page 77, line 22, at end insert— (a) in paragraph 36(3)(b)(ii) for “14 days” there were substituted “28 days”, and ‘(7) For the purposes of subsections (5) and (6) an attempt to commit an offence includes conduct which— (b) the other modifications in sub-paragraphs (3) and (4) were made. (a) consisted of frequenting with intent to commit the offence any river, canal, street, highway, place of (3) The other modifications of paragraph 36 are— public resort or other location mentioned in section 4 (a) the insertion at the beginning of sub-paragraph (1) of of the Vagrancy Act 1824 (as it then had effect) in “Subject to sub-paragraphs (1ZA) to (1ZI),”, connection with frequenting by suspected persons or (b) the insertion, after sub-paragraph (1), of— reputed thiefs, and (b) was itself an offence under that section.’.—(Lynne (1ZA) Sub-paragraph (1ZB) applies in relation to any proposed Featherstone.) application under sub-paragraph (1) for the further extension of the period specified in a warrant of further detention where the grant (otherwise than in accordance with sub-paragraph (3AA)(b)) Schedule 7 of the application would extend the specified period to a time that is more than 14 days after the relevant time. SAFEGUARDING OF VULNERABLE GROUPS:NORTHERN (1ZB) No person may make such an application— IRELAND Amendment made: (a) in England and Wales, without the consent of the 63, page 144, line 26, at end insert— Director of Public Prosecutions, ‘(6) After paragraph 5 of Schedule 2 to that Order (regulated (b) in Scotland, without the consent of the Lord activity relating to children) insert— Advocate, and “Guidance (c) in Northern Ireland, without the consent of the Director 5A (1) The Secretary of State must give guidance for the of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland, purpose of assisting regulated activity providers and personnel unless the person making the application is the person whose suppliers in deciding whether supervision is of such a kind that, consent is required. as a result of paragraph 1(2B)(b), 2(3A) or 2(3B)(b), the person being supervised would not be engaging in regulated activity (1ZC) The Director of Public Prosecutions must exercise personally relating to children. any function under sub-paragraph (1ZB) of giving consent. (2) The Secretary of State must publish guidance given under (1ZD) The only exception is if— this paragraph. (a) the Director is unavailable, and (3) A regulated activity provider or a personnel supplier must, (b) there is another person who is designated in writing by in exercising any functions under this Order, have regard to the Director acting personally as the person who is guidance for the time being given under this paragraph.”’.— authorised to exercise any such function when the (Lynne Featherstone.) Director is unavailable. (1ZE) In that case— Schedule 8 (a) the other person may exercise the function but must do DISCLOSURE AND BARRING SERVICE so personally, and Amendment made: 64, page 148, line 23, at end insert— (b) the Director acting personally— ‘Use of information (i) must review the exercise of the function as soon as practicable, and 15A Information obtained by DBS in connection with the exercise of any of its functions may be used by DBS in (ii) may revoke any consent given. connection with the exercise of any of its other functions.’.— (1ZF) Where the consent is so revoked after an application has (Lynne Featherstone.) been made or extension granted, the application is to be dismissed or (as the case may be) the extension is to be revoked. New Clause 13 (1ZG) Sub-paragraphs (1ZC) to (1ZF) apply instead of any other provisions which would otherwise have enabled any function EMERGENCY POWER FOR TEMPORARY EXTENSION AND of the Director of Public Prosecutions under sub-paragraph REVIEW OF EXTENSIONS (1ZB) of giving consent to be exercised by a person other than the Director. ‘(1) After Part 3 of Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000 (extension of detention of terrorist suspects) insert— (1ZH) The Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland must exercise personally any function under sub-paragraph (1ZB) PART 4 of giving consent unless the function is exercised personally by the Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland EMERGENCY POWER WHEN PARLIAMENT DISSOLVED by virtue of section 30(4) or (7) of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 (powers of Deputy Director to exercise functions of ETC. FOR TEMPORARY EXTENSION OF MAXIMUM PERIOD Director). FOR DETENTION UNDER SECTION 41 (1ZI) Sub-paragraph (1ZH) applies instead of section 36 of 38 (1) The Secretary of State may make a temporary extension the Act of 2002 (delegation of the functions of the Director of order if— Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland to persons other than (a) either— the Deputy Director) in relation to the functions of the Director (i) Parliament is dissolved, or of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland and the Deputy 257 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 258

Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland under, or (c) such an order ceases to have effect by virtue of (as the case may be) by virtue of, sub-paragraph (1ZB) above of section 123(6A) and (6B), giving consent.”, is without prejudice to anything previously done by virtue of (c) the substitution, for “a judicial authority” in sub- the order or to the making of a new order.” paragraph (1A), of “— (a) in the case of an application falling within (2) After section 123(6) of that Act (orders and regulations sub-paragraph (1B), a judicial authority; and under the Act) insert— (b) in any other case, a senior judge”, “(6A) An order under paragraph 38 of Schedule 8 is to cease (d) the insertion, after sub-paragraph (1A), of— to have effect at the end of the period of 20 days beginning with (1B) An application for the extension or further extension of a the day on which the Secretary of State makes the order, unless a period falls within this sub-paragraph if— resolution approving the order is passed by each House of (a) the grant of the application otherwise than in accordance Parliament during that period. with sub-paragraph (3AA)(b) would extend that period (6B) For the purposes of subsection (6A) the period of 20 days to a time that is no more than 14 days after the is to be computed in accordance with section 7(1) of the relevant time; and Statutory Instruments Act 1946.” (b) no application has previously been made to a senior (3) After section 36(4) of the Terrorism Act 2006 (review of judge in respect of that period.”, terrorism legislation) insert— (e) the insertion, after “judicial authority” in both places in sub-paragraph (3AA) where it appears, of “or “(4A) The person appointed under subsection (1) must ensure senior judge”, that a review is carried out (whether by that person or another (f) the insertion, after “detention” in sub-paragraph (4), of person) into any case where the period specified in a warrant of “but, in relation to an application made by virtue of further detention issued under Part 3 of Schedule 8 to the sub-paragraph (1A)(b) to a senior judge, as if— Terrorism Act 2000 (extension of detention of terrorist suspects) is further extended by virtue of paragraph 36 of that Schedule to (a) references to a judicial authority were references to a a time that is more than 14 days after the relevant time (within senior judge; and the meaning of that paragraph). (b) references to the judicial authority in question were references to the senior judge in question”, (4B) The person appointed under subsection (1) must ensure (g) the insertion, after “judicial authority” in sub- that a report on the outcome of the review is sent to the Secretary paragraph (5), of “or senior judge”, and of State as soon as reasonably practicable after the completion of the review.”’.—(James Brokenshire.) (h) the insertion, after sub-paragraph (6), of— (7) In this paragraph and paragraph 37 “senior judge” Brought up, and read the First time. means a judge of the High Court or of the High Court of Justiciary.” (4) The modification of paragraph 37 is the insertion, in 7.45 pm sub-paragraph (2), after “judicial authority”, of “or senior judge”. James Brokenshire: I beg to move, That the clause be (5) A temporary extension order applies, except so far as it provides otherwise, to any person who is being detained under read a Second time. section 41 when the order comes into force (as well as any person who is subsequently detained under that section). Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this (6) The Secretary of State may by order revoke a temporary it will be convenient to discuss the following: extension order if the Secretary of State considers it appropriate New clause 14—Extension of pre-charge detention— to do so (whether or not the conditions mentioned in paragraphs (a) and (b) of sub-paragraph (1) are met). ‘(1) The Secretary of State may by order extend the permitted (7) Sub-paragraph (8) applies if— period of detention under section 41 and Schedule 8 of the Terrorism Act 2000 to 28 days if the Attorney General has (a) any of the following events occurs— certified that exceptional circumstances apply; (i) the revocation without replacement of a temporary extension order, (2) An order made under subsection (1) shall expire three (ii) the expiry of the period of three months mentioned months after commencement; in sub-paragraph (2) in relation to such an order, (3) The Secretary of State must arrange for a statement to be (iii) the ceasing to have effect of such an order by made to each House of Parliament as soon as possible once an virtue of section 123(6A) and (6B), and order under subsection (1) has been made. (b) at that time— (4) A review of each order made under subsection (1) must be (i) a person is being detained by virtue of a further conducted by the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, extension under paragraph 36, or a person appointed by him, and each review must be published (ii) the person’s further detention was authorised by as soon as any risk of prejudice to judicial proceedings has ceased virtue of the temporary extension order concerned to exist. (before its revocation, expiry or ceasing to have effect) for a period ending more than 14 days after (5) Every year, the Secretary of State must lay before the relevant time (within the meaning given by Parliament a report listing any orders made under subsection (1) paragraph 36(3B)), since the commencement of this section, or since the date of the previous report as the case may be, explaining what exceptional (iii) that 14 days has expired, and circumstances applied in each case; and if— (iv) the person’s detention is not otherwise authorised by law. (a) six weeks have elapsed from the report being laid, (8) The person with custody of that individual must release the without the report being approved by a resolution of individual immediately. each House of Parliament, or (9) Subject to sub-paragraphs (7) and (8), the fact that— (b) either House of Parliament declines to approve the (a) a temporary extension order is revoked, report by resolution (b) the period of three months mentioned in sub-paragraph this section, and any order made under subsection (1), shall (2) has expired in relation to such an order, or cease to have effect. 259 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 260

(6) When an order under subsection (1) is in force, a High New clause 13 introduces an urgent order-making Court judge may extend the period of detention without charge power for the Secretary of State temporarily to increase of any person arrested under section 41 of the Terrorism the maximum period of pre-charge detention for terrorist Act 2000 up to 28 days if he is satisfied that— suspects under schedule 8 of the Terrorism Act 2000 (a) the person has been lawfully arrested on reasonable from 14 days to 28 days in very limited circumstances. suspicion of having committed a specified terrorist An order may be made only where the Secretary of offence; State considers that to be necessary, by reason of (b) it would be exceptionally difficult to decide whether to urgency. This is an emergency power exercisable only charge the suspect with a terrorist offence unless the when Parliament is dissolved, or in the period before suspect were to be detained without charge for more the Queen’s Speech following the Dissolution of Parliament. than 14 days; As I have said already, the counter-terrorism review (c) there are reasonable grounds for expecting that it would that the Government initiated, which reported at the be possible to decide whether to charge the suspect start of the year, concluded that the limit on pre-charge with a terrorist offence if he were detained without charge for more than 14 days but no more than detention for terrorist suspects should be set at 14 days 28 days; and and that this should be reflected in primary legislation, which is what we have in the Bill. The counter-terrorism (d) the public interest in the administration of justice review, after examining the options for dealing with the would be undermined if the suspect were to be released without charge. emergency situation, stated that emergency legislation extending the period of pre-charge detention to 28 days (7) An application to the High Court under subsection (6) should be drafted and discussed with the Opposition requires the authorisation of the Director of Public Prosecutions.’. but not introduced, in order to deal with urgent situations Government amendments 79, 80 and 75. in which more than 14 days is considered necessary, for example in response to multiple co-ordinated attacks James Brokenshire: The coalition’s programme for and/or during multiple, large and simultaneous government committed the Government to reviewing investigations. Lord Macdonald, who was the independent counter-terrorism legislation. Included in this broad reviewer of the Government’s counter-terrorism analysis, review was the issue of pre-charge detention. The agreed with that, stating: Government are committed to making our counter- “It is my clear conclusion that the evidence gathered by the terrorism powers fairer and more effective, and they Review failed to support a case for 28 day pre-charge detention. announced in January 201l that, following the results of No period in excess of 14 days has been sought by police or the review of counter-terrorism and security powers, prosecutors since 2007, and no period in excess of 21 days has the limit on pre-charge detention for terrorist suspects been sought since 2006…I agree with the Review’s conclusion that should be reduced to 14 days. The 28 days order was the risk of an exceptional event, requiring a temporary return to always meant to be an exceptional provision; it had 28 days, is best catered for by having emergency legislation ready become the norm. The Government are not prepared to for placing before Parliament in that eventuality. This is the option allow this to continue. The last 28 days order was most strongly supported by the evidence gathered by the Review.” therefore allowed to lapse on 24 January. The maximum Alun Michael: I am following the logic of what the limit for pre-charge detention is now 14 days. Minister says very carefully. He referred to multiple There was a recognition—I will come on to this in the attacks and multiple investigations. Does he accept that context of the counter-terrorism review—that it might multiple attacks in themselves would not justify the use be necessary in an emergency, in exceptional circumstances, of the power, and that it is the weight of investigation for pre-charge detention to be extended back up to and preparation of cases that would be the trigger? I 28 days, and it was for that reason that the Government know that this sounds a little like dancing on the head introduced fast-track legislation to pre-legislative scrutiny. of a pin, but I hope that he will accept that clarity here I will come on to the pre-legislative scrutiny in due is crucial to an understanding of what the Government course, recognising that right hon. and hon. Members intend. from the Joint Committee are here this evening, and I James Brokenshire: The right hon. Gentleman will look forward to their contributions in this debate. obviously have seen the Home Secretary’s response to Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): the Joint Committee’s report. In relation to legislating I want to clarify one point that is not dealt with in the for exceptional circumstances, the Committee agrees Home Secretary’s response to the Committee’s report, that it does not make sense to have an exhaustive list. although it was dealt with when she came before the She set out three broad scenarios in which a longer Committee to give evidence. It is silent on a point that is period of pre-charge detention may be necessary in central to the issue—the fact that an extension of detention response to a fundamental change in the threat environment: can be made only if more time is required for investigation first, when the police and Crown Prosecution Service and in order to bring cases before the court, and is not anticipate that multiple, complex and simultaneous intended to be some form of preventive detention. Will investigations would necessitate 28 days’detention; secondly, the Minister confirm that that is still the Government’s during an investigation or series of investigations—but view? It frames the whole of the discussion from that before arrests—that were so complex or significant that point on. 14 days was not considered sufficient; and thirdly, during an investigation but after arrests had taken place. That James Brokenshire: The right hon. Gentleman is was how the Home Secretary framed it, and that is the absolutely right about the evidence that the Home scenario and the analysis that we would point to in this Secretary gave to the Joint Committee, and I am happy context—although the Joint Committee did set out to confirm that that retains and maintains the Government’s some other thoughts on exceptional circumstances, which position on the use of the fast-track legislation and the the Home Secretary and the Government welcome as a emergency provisions that we have talked about. helpful guide for supplementing the analysis that she set 261 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 262

[James Brokenshire] Although the Government still believe that fast-track legislation is the most appropriate contingency mechanism out in the three points to which I have already alluded. for increasing the maximum period of pre-charge detention, Therefore, I think that it is helpful to Parliament to have we recognise that, as the Committee pointed out, that the additional points referred to in the Joint Committee’s approach would not be feasible during any period when report available to inform consideration in this regard. Parliament was dissolved. No contingency mechanism will be perfect or able to meet all operational needs Nicola Blackwood: Will my hon. Friend give some while at the same time satisfying every concern that indication of the role that operational independence Parliament and the public might have, but we recognised will have in considering when investigations have become the point raised by the Committee about what would so complex and difficult that the police will require the happen if Parliament were dissolved. New clause 13 has extended period in order to complete their investigations? been introduced to address that specific concern. I am aware that the Committee concluded that the James Brokenshire: I will cover that point in further Government’s intention to rely on fast-track legislation detail in the latter part of my contribution, but I will say for other periods was not appropriate, citing potential that the distinction between individual cases and legislating problems with parliamentary debates and possible for the generality, and the need to make a clear distinction difficulties with recalling Parliament during a long recess. between the two, was something that the Joint Committee New clause 14, tabled by the right hon. Member for rightly scrutinised in that context. We believe that it is Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), attempts possible to draw the distinction between an individual to deal with that issue by introducing an order-making case with individual circumstances, and legislating on a power to increase the maximum period of pre-charge need to extend pre-charge detention from 14 days to detention, which would be available when the Attorney- 28 days as a principle. In order to plan for such General certified that exceptional circumstances applied. circumstances, the Government have published, but not The new clause also includes a number of proposed introduced, draft emergency legislation that would increase safeguards relating to that power, including retrospective the maximum period from 14 days to 28 days, which has parliamentary approval and a number of conditions been subject to the scrutiny of the Joint Committee. that would have to be satisfied before a High Court judge could approve any individual applications for Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I extended detention up to 28 days. have heard the words “exceptional circumstances” used. I very much welcome the continuation of the debates Am I right in saying that including those words strikes that the right hon. Gentleman and I have had over the right balance between defending civil liberties and terrorism legislation, and many of the themes that come protecting the British public? through in this debate were apparent in our debates on the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures James Brokenshire: I think that is right. In many ways Bill, the enhanced regime and the provisions that it it is why the Government have taken the approach that introduced. I think that it is right and proper that we we have. Ultimately, it would be for the House to decide have the debate on the issue in this Bill, particularly as whether the circumstances justified the introduction of the Joint Committee’s investigation related to the emergency the emergency legislation. That is an important protection, draft legislation to which the Bill is in essence connected and represents the underlying distinction in the with regard to an increase from 14 to 28 days. However, Government’s approach. we believe that the exceptional nature of these powers to extend the maximum period beyond 14 days means Hon. and right hon. Members who sat on the Public that, where feasible, the principle of 28- day detention Bill Committee will recall that we had extensive debates should be debated and approved by Parliament. in Committee on what the maximum period should be, in what circumstances the Government might seek to In response to the Joint Committee’s report, the extend that period, and what kind of contingency Home Secretary said: mechanism they might employ to extend the maximum “An order-making power of the type described in the Committee’s period. As I said then, the Government have prepared report” draft fast-track legislation, which at the time was subject —and in many ways reflected in the new clause that the to pre-legislative scrutiny.The Joint Committee undertaking right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East has that scrutiny reported in June, and I am grateful to Lord tabled— Armstrong of Illminster and the other members of the “would…not be a clear expression that the ‘normal’ maximum Committee for their careful consideration. period of pre-charge detention should be no longer than 14 days.” She went on to say: Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Does the Minister believe that habeas corpus itself is in any way affected “28 day detention is so exceptional that I continue to believe that Parliament should have the opportunity to debate the issue first, by the proposals before the House in the new clause, and that the most appropriate and effective way to do this is by and does habeas corpus not, as Lord Steyn has said using emergency primary legislation.” repeatedly, supervene against any other jurisdiction, provided that its operation is not excluded by statute? 8pm James Brokenshire: I know that that is a particular Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): The concern for my hon. Friend, but we do not think that it Government have opted for legislation rather than for is engaged in that way. I know that he has tabled a Bill the order-making procedure, but by introducing new previously on this subject, but the clear advice I have clause 13 the Minister demonstrates that the legislative received is that the answer is no. approach is a principle that can be departed from in 263 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 264 certain circumstances. The Committee found that an not also significant that what will be discussed is an essential way to create a pragmatic response would be exceptional threat to the nation? Is it not appropriate to to apply the order-making procedure in all circumstances. recall Parliament to discuss that? Should not we be So far, the Government’s response on the matter has required to confer exceptional powers? been exiguous to say the least. The first problem is that if we recalled Parliament for James Brokenshire: I have already said that on this a statement and a debate, we would be doing something matter neither I nor the Home Secretary feel that crystal quite different from recalling Parliament in order to ball-gazing is appropriate, but we are looking at exceptional make primary legislation, remembering that that would circumstances, and as I have said the process can be have had to pass through not only this House but the handled and managed by the House. We have seen other place. But there is a further point, and it seems circumstances in which matters have been handled even more significant as a matter of principle. How sensitively, and, although we recognise that that issue is could one be assured that, in the course of a debate here a factor, we think that it can be addressed through the about such primary legislation, nothing would take consideration of emergency legislation and the recall of place that did not have the effect of prejudicing the Parliament. right to a fair trial? Importantly, we have allowed scrutiny of the draft James Brokenshire: Parliament has shown itself capable Bill, its operation and functions, so, if it is necessary to in the past of conducting debates about sensitive issues take legislation through the House, such deliberation and of being recalled quickly in exceptional circumstances. and consideration will be aided by the scrutiny and The current consideration of issues such as phone hacking exceptional work that the Joint Committee has already illustrates how Parliament can consider and discuss undertaken. very sensitive issues, and Parliament’s response to the riots over the summer also highlighted the fact that it is Alun Michael: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman possible for the House to be recalled and to return at for giving way, because he is dealing with important very short notice. issues. He is right about scrutiny, but it cannot simply We return, however, to the principle that maintaining be the threat that leads to the power before us being 14 days in primary legislation, rather than having a brought in. That would apply to prevention of terrorism general order-making power, represents a clear expression legislation, to the Emergency Powers Act 1964 and so of the very exceptional nature of the powers sought, on, but in relation to this power only the investigation gives Parliament the opportunity to debate the issues and preparation of specific cases and the need for and, crucially, avoids 28 days becoming the maximum additional time can justify the use of such legislation. by default, as it appeared to be under the previous The House can be sensitive and, in some circumstances, Government. speedy, but surely the Minister accepts that in the consideration of such matters there is a fault line which Alun Michael: I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, is problematic for the Government and for the House. and I do not think that anybody is arguing for access to periods in excess of 14 days in normal circumstances. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We The principle that he underlines is absolutely right, but need shorter interventions, as we still have a lot of the problem with a debate by the House of Commons is business to go. that the evidence of the need for a longer period will be based only on a specific case or number of cases. If we have a massive number of cases, we will get away from James Brokenshire: The Joint Committee set out that the individual case, but that is an unlikely circumstance, point very clearly in its report, and we have heard it, but and if the need for detention beyond 14 days relates just we believe that a distinction can be drawn between the to one case, or to two or three, it is almost impossible to principle of extending 14 days to 28 days and the envisage a debate that would not refer to them—so consideration of an individual case—and that it is what would be the point of such a debate? entirely possible and practical for the House to do so. I appreciate that in considering a detention of terrorism James Brokenshire: That point was considered in the suspects (temporary extensions) Bill, Parliament would counter-terrorism review, and the view clearly expressed not be able to discuss matters relating to particular was that the debates and consideration would need to individuals or anything that might compromise an be handled carefully, but in our judgment that does not investigation or a future prosecution, but it is important make the process impossible; far from it. Indeed, as I to recognise the clear difference between Parliament’s have told the House, Lord Macdonald, in his review of considering whether 28-day detention should be available counter-terrorism, said that that was the appropriate in principle and the judiciary’s role in determining way to proceed, reflecting what I have said about whether in an individual case to extend a detention telegraphing very clearly the norm: 14 days, rather than warrant under schedule 8 to the 2000 Act. Parliament 28 days. Therefore, we judge that this measure is the would not take a decision about an individual suspect appropriate way forward, but no contingency mechanism or suspects; that would be a decision for the proper will be perfect and meet all the needs of everybody. We judicial process. do believe, however, that it is workable and practical, and underlines most clearly the norm for pre-charge Parliament would take a decision about the principle detention. of 28 days in a given set of circumstances, which would be explained in as much detail as possible. Parliament Nicola Blackwood: In addition to the question of would also be able to discuss in general the issues of the whether it is appropriate for Parliament to be the body threat and the reasons why an increased threat might that debates the conferring of exceptional powers, is it require a longer maximum detention period. 265 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 266

Mr Cash: I am sure the Minister appreciates that he is liberty only if they are safe and feel it, but they have treading a rather wobbly line, because clause 57 talks liberty only if those particular liberties are granted to about a permanent reduction in the maximum detention them as well. I would try to say that the two are not period to 14 days, yet, during the rather special mutually exclusive, but intimately intertwined. circumstances when Parliament is not sitting or has Outside London, people often think that issues of been dissolved, he is prepared to countenance the idea counter-terrorism are primarily the responsibility of the of an emergency arrangement that would produce 28 days. Metropolitan police and to do with what happens in the I happen to be in favour of more than 14 days, but is it metropolitan areas of the country. However, I clearly not the case that, ultimately, the test should be what is remember that after 11 September, when Americans in the interests of the security of the nation, and that, if stopped flying, people were laid off at GE Aviation in it is good enough to extend 14 days to 28 in such Nantgarw just outside my constituency because it did circumstances, it should apply or could apply generally? not need to make any more aircraft engines. We are all intimately involved. Following the bombings in London, James Brokenshire: We come back to what I spoke all the schools in my constituency cancelled their visits about—the exceptional nature of the powers sought to Westminster for about a year, because there was a and the point that 14 days should be the norm. Through nervousness about coming up to London. We need to the new clause, we seek to address the very limited get these issues right. circumstances in which Parliament is not functioning, and we recognise and take on board the Joint Committee’s comments on that. In those circumstances, the Home 8.15 pm Secretary and the Government need to be able to act in the national interest to ensure security. For that reason, On the specific issue, I think that the Government the emergency order-making power in new clause 13 is have got themselves into something of a conundrum. limited to periods when the introduction of primary There are plenty of issues on which we now fundamentally legislation would not be possible—that is, when Parliament agree. Broadly speaking, everybody agrees that the norm is dissolved or before the first Queen’s Speech of the should be 14 days—indeed, we would prefer it if all new Parliament. 14 days were not used; it is a fundamental principle that as soon as it is possible to bring charges, those charges As we set out in the Government’s response, published should be brought and the system of criminal justice last week, to the Joint Committee’s report, we welcome then proceeds. Whenever somebody is detained pre-charge, two of the Committee’s further recommendations for that is ostensibly an embarrassment at least and an increased safeguards, and we have included them in new undermining of that person’s civil liberties. clause 13. First, applications for any warrant of further detention that would see an individual detained for As the Government’s amendments on what would longer than 14 days may be made only with the personal happen in Dissolution reveal, it is universally accepted consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions or the that there may be exceptional circumstances in which equivalent post holder in Scotland or Northern Ireland. we would need to go beyond 14 days. Many have Secondly, whenever an individual is detained for longer speculated about them; my right hon. Friend the Member than 14 days, their case will be reviewed by the independent for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) mentioned, reviewer of terrorism legislation, or someone on their for instance, when a large number of cases come behalf, and a report of that review will be sent to the simultaneously or when it is particularly difficult to Secretary of State as soon as possible. gather some of the evidence pre-charge—for example, if a person who was part of a plot left the country and Both those changes will also be incorporated in the had to be brought back. After 7/7, the European arrest draft fast-track legislation to increase the maximum warrant helped us, as we were able to bring people back length of pre-charge detention to 28 days. New clause 13 from Italy much faster than we could have done otherwise. and consequential amendments 79 and 80 ensure that there is an effective contingency mechanism for increasing The Government would not have advanced the power- the maximum period of pre-charge detention in the making role during Dissolution unless they accepted limited period during which Parliament is dissolved. It that there might be exceptional circumstances. However, is right that we should continue to rely on fast-track they do not want to provide in statute now for making primary legislation in all other circumstances. On that such a power available to the Secretary of State, however basis, I commend new clause 13 to the House. corralled around it is by protective measures. That is where they have got themselves into a bit of a problem. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I will start with some The power to dissolve Parliament and, for that matter, general comments and then come directly to the the power to hold the Queen’s Speech, is held by the amendments and new clauses. Obviously, this is the first Crown, by Government. It seems bizarre that in that time that I have spoken about these matters in a shadow exceptional moment, when the Government have more ministerial capacity, and I want to underline the fact power than at any other time, we would give them the that Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition remain loyal on power to allow an extension to 28 days—corralled these issues. It is often said—just because it is a truism around in the various ways that the Minister provided does not make it untrue—that the single most important for—but not in other circumstances, when Parliament thing that a Government have to do is protect their can hold the Crown to account. The amendment relating citizens, and we fully accept that. to the power of Dissolution is ludicrously over-complicated. It was said earlier that it is important to balance the It certainly would not pass any “easy English” rule, security of the nation and civil liberties. I disagree with given the number of sub-clauses and intricacies. the framing of the debate in that way, because I think that the two are intertwined—someone has personal Sir Menzies Campbell: What’s new? 267 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 268

Chris Bryant: Indeed—but we are trying to do better, necessary. However, I believe that the Government are and I honestly think that there is a danger. At that time, going down the wrong route in trying to achieve that, as when there would be a Government but not a Parliament, does the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee, which said: we would end up with something of a constitutional “We believe, however, that the parliamentary scrutiny of primary crisis if the Government chose to delay having a Queen’s legislation to this effect would be so circumscribed by the difficulties Speech to invoke the power, notwithstanding the other of explaining the reasons for introducing it without prejudicing elements to which the Minister referred. the rights of a suspect or suspects to a fair trial as to make the process of justifying the legislation almost impossible for the Then there is the route of emergency primary legislation. Secretary of State and totally unsatisfactory and ineffective for The right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife Members of both Houses of Parliament.” (Sir Menzies Campbell) referred to the dangers, and he is absolutely right. Obviously, there would be a series of Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): As someone debates in this and the other House, because we would who does not have to move on from 42 days, having have to go through all three stages in both Houses. I taken, in my view, the right decision at the time—and cannot conceive of a set of debates in which one would previously on 90 days—like my hon. Friend I have the not get close to having to argue why it was all necessary greatest reservations about emergency legislation all in now and therefore it would not be prejudicing any one day. If it is to be detention without charge for potential prosecution. That is the Government’s big 14 days, which, like him, I certainly welcome, I would problem about the route of emergency legislation. vote against any measure that the Government clearly I should also say that, on the whole, emergency have in mind whereby it would be 14 days-plus. That legislation is a bad idea. In my experience, the Commons would be totally unsatisfactory, for all the reasons he does not do emergency legislation well, and their lordships has cited. do not do it much better. I presume that the Minister would want all three stages in both Houses in one day, Chris Bryant: I think that “I told you so” came at the or at most two. There are real problems with that, beginning of my hon. Friend’s comments. Quite often because Members would have to be able to table manuscript he does turn out to be more correct than me, but there amendments on Report and would not be able to listen we go—that’s life. to the Second Reading debate before considering the I can imagine a point where we are nine days into tabling of amendments. All that would be in danger of somebody’s detention and then the Government realise leading to bad legislation. that they need their emergency legislation. They would not be able to start that process until the 11th day, and James Brokenshire: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to then they would suddenly be saying, “Right, we’ve got his position and wish him well in his new responsibilities to put it all through this House and the other House in and duties. Does he accept that when the previous one day.” That leads to very dangerous decision making, Government were considering the extension to 42 days, and it is a bad route to go down. It would be a mistake they were proposing to use exactly the same mechanism? for us to decide in principle that that is what we want to do in some given circumstance. That is why I prefer the route advanced by my right hon. Friends the Members Chris Bryant: I think we have moved on somewhat; for Cardiff South and Penarth and for Wythenshawe certainly I have. Also, the facts have changed. There was and Sale East (Paul Goggins), the right hon. and learned a time when a lot more people feared much more that Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), we might need more than 14 days rather more frequently, the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), but the fact is that the powers have not been used—they have and the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) and for not been necessary. The facts have changed, time has Banbury (Tony Baldry). Having said that, we still need passed, and we need to move on. I am grateful for the to resolve some of the issues about the level of corralling Minister’s wishing me well, with a slight barb to it. needed to ensure that the power is not used gratuitously, The Minister said that in the case of phone hacking that the Secretary of State is not able to proceed unhindered, the House moved remarkably swiftly. In fact, all that and so on. happened was Executive action, because the Government were finally persuaded that they should set up the Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Has Leveson inquiry. Parliament did absolutely nothing. We the hon. Gentleman already thought through what some did not legislate; we certainly did not go through three of the safeguards should be to ensure that the Secretary stages of a Bill. We may end up legislating in that of State does not use the provision as an administrative respect, but it will not happen for some time. facility to progress from 14 to 28 days? We have had the pre-legislative scrutiny process, and I am grateful to the right hon. and hon. Members who Chris Bryant: New clause 14 makes clear some of the sat on the Committee. However, there is still the danger specifics involved. If the Government have things they that following the moment that necessitated emergency think should be additional, that debate needs to be had. legislation—I do not know whether that would be 10, I suspect that this will not be the end of the matter in 11 or 12 days in—we would effectively be undertaking this House and that their lordships will want to look ad exemplum legislation, which is always a mistake. I very closely at whether there is a better route to achieve sympathise with the squaring of the circle that the the same end. Government are trying to achieve whereby we all accept Nobody is trying to end up in a different place in this that the norm should be 14 days, and while in normal regard, but the process of emergency legislation that the circumstances we do not want all those 14 days to be Government are using is a mistake. In essence, they used, we none the less accept that there might be some have already accepted the principle that there should, exceptional circumstances in which 20 days might be in exceptional circumstances, be an additional power. 269 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 270

[Chris Bryant] on the repeal of that Act, never mind what the Deputy Prime Minister says. I was responsible for that policy They have accepted that in relation to Dissolution and when I was shadow Attorney-General. I got it through effectively said that it should be present at other times. the shadow Cabinet at that time and it stayed right The issue is simply about how we make sure that the through to the manifesto. The point is that if one Secretary of State, if he or she were to have that power, disentangles the unnecessary complications of the Human would then be circumscribed by Parliament and by other Rights Act from the essence of the question, what we bodies. Undoubtedly, High Court judges and the Director must have is a fair trial, as the right hon. and learned of Public Prosecutions make decisions that do not Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) allow the Secretary of State to act gratuitously. However, said—I suspect that that is the only point on which we we prefer the route that new clause 14 lays out, and I are likely to agree. That was in my Bill. We must also hope that the Government will think again. I do not reaffirm the principles of habeas corpus and due process. expect that we will want to divide the House on this matter, The combination of those things can be achieved by but I hope that their lordships will look at it again. legislating on our own terms; not through being caught up in all the unnecessary complication of having these Mr Cash: I will speak briefly because I have already matters adjudicated in Strasbourg or wherever. gone through this issue on a number of occasions. If there is a vote on the new clause, I shall abstain on I believe very strongly that if there is a case for a simple issue of principle. I think that the hon. Member extending the period from 14 to 28 days, the Government, for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is right when he says that by referring to the period in question as merely 14 days the Government are creating a problem for themselves. and describing it as a permanent reduction in clause 57, There is a confusion of principle here. What is sauce for and then talking about certain circumstances of an the goose is sauce for the gander. If there is a case for emergency nature that extend it to 28 days, effectively extending the period to 28 days when there is a Dissolution sell the argument down the river. I am trying to look at or before the Queen’s Speech, frankly that is a matter of the principle. In my opinion, 28 days is justified. We principle and it should be clear in the Bill that 28 days is have been through the arguments, as the hon. Member an appropriate period. Why is it appropriate? Because for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) said, about whether it the security of the nation requires it. That is the first should be 42 days or 90 days. Fourteen days can be a priority. We have our civil liberties only if the security of very short period, so if there is a case for it being the nation is guaranteed. I therefore will not support 28 days in certain circumstances, for heaven’s sake let us the Government on the proposal, and I believe that my just accept that 28 days will be used very rarely and only argument is based on reason, principle and practicality. in special circumstances. Furthermore, to go back to a point that the Minister Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): It made, there is the distinct, continuing right of habeas is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stone corpus. If a judge thought that somebody was being (Mr Cash). ill-treated during a period of detention, which is really I will focus on new clause 14, which stands in my what this is all about, and he was satisfied by evidence name and the names of the five other Members mentioned from other sources and an application for habeas corpus, by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris he would go straight down—in Belmarsh, for example, Bryant) who served on the Joint Committee on the there is a tunnel—and ask to have the person who was Draft Detention of Terrorist Suspects (Temporary being detained produced for him. He would rapidly Extension) Bills, which was appointed earlier this year work out whether that person was being subjected to and whose work on scrutinising the Bills has been unfair or unreasonable treatment—we are talking here mentioned. I am grateful to the Minister for his remarks about the realities of life—and whether he should be about the Committee’s work, as I am sure are my given the full benefit of habeas corpus. Habeas corpus colleagues. We are also grateful to my hon. Friend the means, “You shall have the body,” or, “Youshall produce Member for Rhondda, whom I congratulate on his the person.” That, in my judgment, is ultimately what recent appointment to his important new responsibilities. this is all about. The Minister referred to the fact that he and I have begun to engage with each other regularly on these 8.30 pm issues. What we are learning is that there are no perfect I introduced a Bill on this matter right back when the solutions to these problems; they are difficult and former Member for Folkestone and Hythe was the challenging, and often we are looking for the least worst leader of the Conservative party and my right hon. option rather than the perfect option. That is the spirit Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden in which I make my remarks this evening. (Mr Davis) was the shadow Home Secretary. I had a bit The six Members of this House whom I mentioned of a disagreement with them because they wanted to do were joined by six highly regarded and experienced a deal with the Liberal Democrats and I disagreed with Members of the other place on a Committee that was that. That was not an unusual circumstance, but I try to expertly chaired by Lord Armstrong of Ilminster. We stick to my principle. I produced the Prevention of met on 11 occasions, had seven public evidence sessions Terrorism (No. 2) Bill for the reason—I have done it and took evidence from a wide range of experts. New again more recently, as the Minister agreed—that I clause 14 reflects our conclusions and recommendations. believe that we should justify our actions by reference to For reasons of principle as well as practicality, our legislation that we produce here. starting point as a Committee was that a maximum I just throw into the bargain that I think that the period of 14 days’ pre-charge detention is adequate, Human Rights Act 1998 has a lot to do with this. I am save in exceptional circumstances. For some members very glad that the Home Secretary has made her speech of the Committee—certainly for myself—that represented 271 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 272 a change of mind, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): In the example that Rhondda pointed out. Despite all the fierce debates the right hon. Gentleman has just used, we do not that we have had over the years, I and many colleagues know, of course, whether the police could have charged have had to face the fact that detention beyond 14 days before 14 days. That they charged on the 14th day does has only ever been used on 11 occasions, and not at all not mean that they did not have the evidence to charge since 2007. However, the majority of the witnesses from on the seventh day. whom we took evidence acknowledged that contingency arrangements were required for extension beyond 14 days Paul Goggins: I respect the hon. Gentleman and he in exceptional circumstances. That, of course, is the and I have had exchanges on this issue, but I contest view of the Government as well, as the Home Secretary strongly his assertion. When an ongoing investigation made clear in her evidence to the Committee, and again requires detention to be extended beyond seven days for on 3 October in her letter to Lord Armstrong, to which any further period up to 14 days, there is very close the Minister referred. In that letter, she set out the scrutiny by the courts. It would be impossible for the Government’s response to the Committee’s report and police to detain a suspect beyond seven days—for 10, stated that 13 or 14 days—without the court’s explicit approval. A “it is sensible to acknowledge that longer than 14 days may be court would certainly not approve the detention of required, and to plan accordingly.” somebody who could have been charged earlier, so I The question of the best way to make the necessary completely refute his argument. powers available remains. As we have heard, the The Committee had a number of specific concerns Government are in favour of new primary legislation—a about the primary legislation route. First—others have full Bill, to go through all stages in both Houses. The touched on this important point—parliamentary scrutiny Committee’s view was that that route was both of such primary legislation would be so limited as to be unsatisfactory and unreliable, and it recommended an rendered completely unsatisfactory and ineffective. By order-making power for the Home Secretary, albeit definition, such a Bill would be fast-tracked through the with a number of important safeguards. House, with very little time for debate. The circumstances In her letter to the Committee of 3 October, the in which the legislation would be introduced would Home Secretary set out the three broad scenarios that dramatically limit what Ministers could say without the Minister has described. I will not read from the jeopardising the suspect’s right to a fair trial, or without letter, because he has already read into the record the compromising national security. detail of what she said, but in summary, the three I am sure that the Minister would come to the House scenarios are: a situation in which there is a heightened very well briefed on what he could and could not threat and a likelihood of many and extensive investigations; say—he usually does, and any such future debate would an ongoing investigation that is so complex that 14 days not be an exception—but neither he nor anyone could is not sufficient; and a situation in which arrests have guarantee that a Member of the House would not say been made, the investigation is ongoing and it is clear something that could lead to a subsequent trial being that there is insufficient time for it to be completed compromised. I ask hon. Members present to put within the maximum 14-day period. Frankly, I think the themselves in this position: what if 50 or 100 of their Home Secretary’s assessment of those three scenarios is constituents had just been blown up and they had to rather more reasoned and balanced than the one provided participate in a debate on a request that the suspect who by Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, the former Director is potentially responsible for those explosions is held for of Public Prosecutions, who made clear his view that longer than 14 days? We would all be exercised in that extension beyond 14 days could only ever be justified in situation and might be prone to say something out of the context of what he described as a “national catastrophe”. place, which would be reported in the media and lead to The balance of the evidence given to the Committee further speculation that, in turn, could compromise a was that that was far too extreme a view to be practically trial. Both Lord Carlile, the former independent reviewer helpful. of counter-terrorism legislation, and Keir Starmer, the The objective of the Committee and the Government current Director of Public Prosecution, told the Committee is the same, but the question is how to extend beyond that putting too much information into the public domain 14 days. The Committee concluded that the route of could prejudice a fair trial. Alternatively, so little information primary legislation was simply too risky and uncertain might be given by the Minister in the context of the to be relied upon in what, in any event, would be debate that the whole process would be completely extremely challenging circumstances. I draw the Minister’s meaningless. attention in particular to the third scenario that the The Home Secretary is right to draw a distinction Home Secretary outlined in her letter, in which arrests between a debate and a decision on the principle of have been made, an ongoing investigation is being carried extending the powers beyond 14 days and the practical out and the clock is ticking. Perhaps nine, ten or 11 days application of those powers in each individual case. As of questioning have already passed, and only three or my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South four days are left before the maximum is reached. and Penarth (Alun Michael) reminded the House earlier, It is as well to remind the House that during the the application is a matter entirely for the courts and course of our taking evidence, a number of arrests were not for Parliament. However, in practice, particularly in made under terrorism legislation in Northern Ireland. relation to the third scenario that the Home Secretary Two suspects were held for 13 days and then released gave, the debate on the principle and the debate on the without charge, and one suspect was charged on the practical application in an individual case would become 14th day of his detention. We are talking not only about very blurred. There is a real danger of confusion between matters of theory and principle but about real-life situations the role of Parliament and the responsibilities of the that are ongoing in the current climate. court. Parliament could be asked to vote on legislation, 273 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 274

[Paul Goggins] Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I apologise for missing the earlier part of my right hon. Friend’s and within days, the court has to decide whether that speech—I was at a meeting in another part of the legislation can be applied in a specific case in specific building. I understand what he is saying, but very few circumstances. In paragraph 84 of its report, the other countries go beyond 14 days for detention periods Constitution Committee concluded: and some go much less. Why does he think that we “It is ill-advised to create a decision-making process that should legislate to allow an extension to 28 days? requires Parliament and the judiciary to ask and answer similar questions within a short space of time—or at all. Far from being a Paul Goggins: My hon. Friend knows enough about system of checks and balances, this is a recipe for confusion that this matter to know that we cannot draw simple places on Parliament tasks that it cannot effectively fulfil and arguably risks undermining the rights of fair trial for the individuals comparisons between our system and other systems. concerned.” Other systems sometimes appear to hold suspects for shorter periods when in fact they are held for longer That is an important point. The close proximity of the periods. We have a system that reflects our own judicial parliamentary debate and decision, and the application culture but also recognises the fact that we face enormous in an individual case, is fraught with difficulties. threats and challenges from terrorists in this country, Then, of course, there is the practicality of emergency perhaps particularly in this city. We have had to work legislation, which others have touched on. Normal business our way through this, but if he missed the earlier part of could be set aside if Parliament was sitting, but there is my speech, he will not have heard me say that I have had the question of what happens if it is not sitting but in pause to reflect and that I have changed my mind. I recess. The Clerks advise us that a minimum of 48 hours think that 14 days should be the maximum in most would be required to recall Parliament during a recess. circumstances, apart from the exceptional circumstances Of course, it was recalled very speedily this summer in that I am referring to. the aftermath of the riots, but that was for a statement and debate, not to pass legislation. My right hon. Mr Winnick rose— Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), a former Home Secretary, advised the Committee that after the worst atrocity in the history of the troubles in Northern Paul Goggins: I shall give way one more time, but Ireland, when 29 people were killed and more than 200 then I want to bring my remarks to a conclusion. were injured, it took nine days to reconvene Parliament. In the context of an ongoing investigation into particular Mr Winnick: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I suspects in a particularly urgent inquiry, that would accept that he is a convert to 14 days, although I suspect make the whole process of primary legislation completely that if we were debating 42 days, he would not necessarily impractical. be up on his feet protesting. On the point about the Attorney-General, are we really to believe—this is not a reflection on the Attorney-General in any Government— 8.45 pm that if the Home Secretary told the Attorney-General, It was the Committee’s unanimous view that the in the usual way that these things are done, that it was Secretary of State should be given an executive order- necessary to increase the 14 days in exceptional making power to extend the permitted period of detention circumstances, the Attorney-General would say to the beyond 14 days up to 28 days. However, it suggested a Home Secretary, “No”? It is unrealistic. number of important safeguards, some of which the Minister mentioned. First, the Attorney-General would Paul Goggins: I do not accept that it is unrealistic. It have to certify that exceptional circumstances applied. would depend on the individual judgment of the Attorney- We know that making that judgment can be difficult, General linked to the judgment of the Home Secretary, but it would not just be the Home Secretary who had to who would have been briefed by the Security Service make it; the Attorney-General would have to make a and others. On its own, it is not a total safeguard, but it similar judgment for the order-making power to be is one among several, and I shall briefly go through the available. others. The Secretary of State would have to give a statement to both Houses as soon as possible. There would have to be a review by the Independent Reviewer Mr Cash: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the of Terrorism Legislation of any case in which a suspect Attorney-General’s views on this question of 14 days, was detained for more than 14 days. There would have seven days and all the rest of it? Does the right hon. to be an annual report by the Home Secretary listing Gentleman have much confidence that it would ever be any orders that had been made; that report would have extended? to be debated and voted on in six week. Finally, the Director of Public Prosecutions would have to give his Paul Goggins: I have enough confidence in the current personal authorisation to any application to the High holder of that position to know that he would set aside Court for a further warrant for detention. We know that his personal opinion and deal with the legislation as he that already happens in practice, but it should be on the saw fit. It is interesting. I am asked about the Attorney- face of the legislation. Members of the Joint Committee General and I am often asked about the Home Secretary. will be pleased that the Minister has tonight confirmed It sometimes appears that Opposition Members have that he will introduce legislation to make the order-making more confidence in the Attorney-General and the Home power available during the Dissolution of Parliament, Secretary than some of their own colleagues, because and that he has acknowledged the importance of an we want them to have these powers to use when they are independent review of each case and of the personal absolutely necessary.It is important to have that confidence. authorisation of the Director of Public Prosecutions. 275 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 276

The Minister is a reasonable man who genuinely investigations. The debates on emergency legislation seeks to strike the right balance, but I believe that he has would therefore either be so general and free from landed in the wrong place on this issue. His preferred route evidence as to be meaningless in terms of scrutiny, or be of primary legislation is too risky: time might be against about specific cases, in which event they could be prejudiced. him, and a subsequent trial might be prejudiced. This The right way is for a clearly exceptional power to be set measure is exceptional, and we all hope that it will never out in primary legislation, with a high bar and stringent have to be used, but if it is required, it is important that requirements to make abuse virtually impossible. As the it be absolutely reliable and available as soon as possible. Government have set their face against that approach, The Committee’s recommendation respects the my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Government’s view that 14 days should be the normal Sale East (Paul Goggins) and the rest of us have tabled maximum; frankly, I think that that is the settled view new clause 14, which is a reasonable attempt to find a of Members on both sides of the House. That would way around this that would not be damaging to the give greater certainty in the face of extraordinary challenges, reputation of the Government, this House or the legislative threats and attacks. On behalf of the six members of process. the Committee, I am happy to commend our I urge the Minister, if he can do nothing else, to say recommendations to the Minister, and I hope that, even that he has heard the debate and to give an undertaking now, he will give them further consideration. to think further on these points, which are made not to cause difficulties for Ministers, but to try to enable the Tom Brake: I shall speak briefly in support of new Government to get us to the right place as far as clause 13. I welcomed the Government’s review of counter- principle and law are concerned. terrorism security powers, which concluded that the maximum period of pre-charge detention for terrorists James Brokenshire: We have had a good debate on should be 14 days. I had anticipated that conclusion, the new clauses. I again pay tribute to the work of the but I had not anticipated that the review would further Joint Committee for scrutinising the emergency conclude that there might be exceptional circumstances legislation and, in many ways, for the nature of the in which it was necessary to increase the limit on debate that we have had this evening. pre-charge detention to 28 days. I cannot foresee the exceptional circumstances in which that might be needed, It is correct to say that there is no perfect solution to but I suppose that exceptional circumstances are, by any of the scenarios raised—I have said that in respect definition, very hard to foresee. to the manner in which we have considered this issue, too—but it ultimately comes down to the judgment Once the review had concluded that there might be about settling on 14 days. We have heard contributions such exceptional circumstances, measures had to be put from all parts of the House acknowledging that 14 days in place, and I support the Government’s approach to is now the accepted period for pre-charge detention; fast-track primary legislation. My concern is that, if we that is a recognition on both sides of where to strike had not done that, we might not have had in place the the appropriate balance. I very much welcome the comments necessary safeguards to ensure that we would seek an that have been made about that. If 28 days is absolutely extension to 28 days only in exceptional circumstances. the exception, the structure that we create must recognise Clearly, this is not as elegant a solution as simply that. That is why, although I accept both the help and opting for 14 days. In requiring the additional step, we assistance that has been proffered across the House this must ensure that pressure is maintained during the first evening and the work of the Joint Committee, we have 14 days to ensure that cases are very actively pursued. I resolved in reflecting on the issue that the structure that have been told that, in some cases, there has not been is being created with the draft emergency legislation, quite the necessary degree of energy and commitment along with new clause 13, is the appropriate way forward. during those 14 days. Creating a significant hurdle At one stage there was a suggestion that, for example, for exceptional circumstances that requires a the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 might provide a parliamentary legislative process should ensure that the mechanism for dealing with the issue. That was not the necessary safeguards are operated, and it reflects the view of the Joint Committee, which is a view that we fact that we have not used 14 days since 2007. share. However, it is appropriate that exceptional I welcome what the Government are doing. They circumstances may justify a 28-day detention, and the have identified the need for emergency legislation to be Home Secretary’s letter set out those three scenarios. available not only while Parliament is sitting but when it They are: a fundamental change in the threat environment; is in recess, and the issue that was correctly identified an investigation or series of investigations—albeit before with regard to Dissolution has also had to be addressed. arrest—that were so complex or significant that 14 days I am happy to speak in favour of new clause 13 and to was not considered sufficient; and a scenario that arose welcome it this evening. during an investigation but after an arrest had taken place. Those are the three elements of exceptional Alun Michael: The Minister responded reasonably to circumstances which we have focused on for when powers interventions earlier and I welcome the tone with which might need to be sought to increase the period. he has responded to the debate. However, my hon. However, as other Members have said, we hope that Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) was that scenario would not arise or ever exist. Goodness absolutely right that the Government have dug themselves only knows, that is not something that we would wish to into a hole, and we are trying to help the Home Secretary contemplate, but we have to contemplate it, hence the and the Minister to climb out of it. reason why we have drafted the emergency legislation The Minister accepted that the powers in the emergency and the new clause before the House. We believe that legislation cannot be triggered on the basis of the threat the structure being created is reliable and available, and level, but only by the need for extra time for specific that the House is able to make the distinction and 277 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 278

[James Brokenshire] work available for re-use by an applicant, the authority must give the applicant a notice in writing (in this section referred to as a understand its role, as contrasted with that of the “re-use fee notice”) stating that a fee of an amount specified in, or judiciary; hence the reason why I commend new clause 13 determined in accordance with, the notice is to be charged by the authority in connection with complying with subsection (2). to the House and urge Members to reject new clause 14, although I recognise the important points that the Joint (2D) Where a re-use fee notice has been given to the applicant, Committee made. In many ways we have reflected on the public authority is not obliged to comply with subsection (2) that and have sought to incorporate certain of the Joint while any part of the fee which is required to be paid is unpaid. Committee’s recommendations in the new clause, but (2E) Where a public authority intends to charge a fee as on balance and after careful consideration— mentioned in subsection (2B), the re-use fee notice may be combined with any other notice which is to be given under the 9pm power which enables the fee to be charged.’. Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 10 October). Amendment 27, page 79, line 20, at end insert— The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already 11B Power to charge fees in relation to release of datasets for proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), re-use That the clause be read a Second time. ‘(1) The Secretary of State may, with the consent of the Question agreed to. Treasury, make provision by regulations about the charging of fees by public authorities in connection with making relevant New clause 13 accordingly read a Second time, and copyright works available for re-use under section 11A(2) or by added to the Bill. virtue of section 19(2A)(c). The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions (2) Regulations under this section may, in particular— necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83E) . (a) prescribe cases in which fees may, or may not, be charged, (b) prescribe the amount of any fee payable or provide for Clause 28 any such amount to be determined in such manner as may be prescribed, INTERPRETATION:CHAPTER 2 (c) prescribe, or otherwise provide for, times at which fees, Amendments made: 16, page 18, line 32, leave out or parts of fees, are payable, ‘and (3)’ and insert ‘to (3A)’. (d) require the provision of information about the manner Amendment 17, page 19, line 15, leave out ‘identify’ in which amounts of fees are determined, and insert (e) make different provision for different purposes. ‘establish or verify the identity of’. Amendment 18, page 19, line 16, leave out from (3) Regulations under this section may, in prescribing the amount of any fee payable or providing for any such amount to ‘obtained’ to end of line and insert be determined in such manner as may be prescribed, provide for ‘or recorded with the intention that it be used for the purposes of a reasonable return on investment. a biometric recognition system.’ (4) In this section “relevant copyright work” has the meaning Amendment 19, page 19, line 22, at end insert— given by section 11A(3).”’. ‘(3A) In subsection (2) “biometric recognition system” means a Amendment 28, page 79, line 40, at end insert— system which, by means of equipment operating automatically— (a) obtains or records information about a person’s physical ‘(2B) The public authority may exercise any power that it has or behavioural characteristics or features, and by virtue of regulations under section 11B to charge a fee in connection with making the relevant copyright work available for (b) compares the information with stored information that re-use in accordance with a requirement imposed by virtue of has previously been so obtained or recorded, or subsection (2A)(c). otherwise processes the information, for the purpose of establishing or verifying the identity of the person, (2C) Nothing in this section or section 11B prevents a public or otherwise determining whether the person is authority which is subject to such a requirement from exercising recognised by the system.’.—(James Brokenshire.) any power that it has by or under an enactment other than this Act to charge a fee in connection with making the relevant copyright work available for re-use. Clause 98 (2D) Where a public authority intends to charge a fee (whether in accordance with regulations under section 11B or as mentioned RELEASE AND PUBLICATION OF DATASETS HELD BY in subsection (2C)) in connection with making a relevant copyright PUBLIC AUTHORITIES work available for re-use by an applicant, the authority must give Amendments made: 26, page 78, line 35, at end insert— the applicant a notice in writing (in this section referred to as a “re-use fee notice”) stating that a fee of an amount specified in, or ‘(2A) The public authority may exercise any power that it has determined in accordance with, the notice is to be charged by the by virtue of regulations under section 11B to charge a fee in authority in connection with complying with the requirement connection with making the relevant copyright work available for imposed by virtue of subsection (2A)(c). re-use in accordance with subsection (2). (2B) Nothing in this section or section 11B prevents a public (2E) Where a re-use fee notice has been given to the applicant, authority which is subject to a duty under subsection (2) from the public authority is not obliged to comply with the requirement exercising any power that it has by or under an enactment other imposed by virtue of subsection (2A)(c) while any part of the fee than this Act to charge a fee in connection with making the which is required to be paid is unpaid. relevant copyright work available for re-use. (2F) Where a public authority intends to charge a fee as (2C) Where a public authority intends to charge a fee (whether mentioned in subsection (2C), the re-use fee notice may be in accordance with regulations under section 11B or as mentioned combined with any other notice which is to be given under the in subsection (2B)) in connection with making a relevant copyright power which enables the fee to be charged.’.—(James Brokenshire.) 279 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 280

Clause 111 Amendment 69, page 151, line 36, leave out from third ‘to’ to first ‘is’ in line 37 and insert ‘which this EXTENT section applies’. Amendments made: 29, page 87, line 14, after ‘Schedule 8’ Amendment 70, page 151, line 38, leave out ‘any insert order made under’ ‘and section (Tax in connection with transfer schemes)’. Amendment 79, page 154, line 26, after ‘substitute “’ Amendment 30, page 88, line 4, at end insert— insert ‘is’ ‘(fa) section (Tax in connection with transfer schemes),’. Amendment 80, page 156, line 17, at end insert— Amendment 31, page 88, line 8, leave out ‘Part 2’ and ‘Terrorism Act 2006 insert ‘Parts 1A, 2 and 6A’.—(James Brokenshire.) 27A In section 36 of the Terrorism Act 2006 (review of terrorism legislation)— (a) in subsections (3) and (4) for “under this section” substitute Clause 112 “under subsection (2)”, (b) in subsection (5) after “Parliament” insert “as soon as the COMMENCEMENT Secretary of State is satisfied that doing so will not prejudice any Amendment made: 32, page 88, line 36, at end insert— criminal proceedings”, ‘(za) sections 85 to 87 and section (Tax in connection with (c) in subsection (6) for “to carry out a review under this transfer schemes),’.—(James Brokenshire.) section” substitute “under subsection (1)”, and (d) after subsection (6) insert— Schedule 9 “(6A) The expenses mentioned in subsection (6) include, in particular, any expenses incurred by the person appointed under subsection (1) in ensuring that another person carries out a CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS review of the kind mentioned in subsection (4A) and reports Amendments made: 65, page 149, line 26, at end on it.”’. insert— Amendment 71, page 165, line 33, at end insert— ‘House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975

A1 In Part 3 of Schedule 1 to the House of Commons ‘PART 6A Disqualification Act 1975 (other disqualifying offices) insert at the appropriate place— “Commissioner for the Retention and Use of THE DISCLOSURE AND BARRING SERVICE Biometric Material”. Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 117A In Schedule 2 to the Parliamentary Commissioner A2 In Part 3 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Assembly Act 1967 (departments etc. subject to investigation) insert at the Disqualification Act 1975 (other disqualifying offices) insert at appropriate place— the appropriate place— “Disclosure and Barring Service.” “Commissioner for the Retention and Use of House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 Biometric Material”.’. 117B (1) Schedule 1 to the House of Commons Amendment 66, page 150, line 1, after ‘to’ insert ‘19,’. Disqualification Act 1975 (disqualifying offices) is amended as Amendment 67, page 150, line 7, at end insert— follows. (2) In Part 2 (bodies of which all members are disqualified) ‘PART 1A insert at the appropriate place— “The Disclosure and Barring Service.” THE SURVEILLANCE CAMERA COMMISSIONER (3) In Part 3 (other disqualifying offices) insert at the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 appropriate place— 2A In Part 3 of Schedule 1 to the House of Commons “Member of the staff of the Disclosure and Barring Disqualification Act 1975 (other disqualifying offices) insert at Service.” the appropriate place— Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 “Surveillance Camera Commissioner”.’. 117C (1) Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Assembly Amendment 68, page 151, leave out lines 18 to 33 and Disqualification Act 1975 (disqualifying offices) is amended as insert— follows. ‘(1) This section applies to an application to the sheriff for an (2) In Part 2 (bodies of which all members are disqualified) order under section 23A or 32A. insert at the appropriate place— (2) Rules of court must make provision for the purposes of “The Disclosure and Barring Service.” ensuring that an application to which this section applies is dealt with in private and must, in particular— (3) In Part 3 (other disqualifying offices) insert at the appropriate place— (a) require the sheriff to determine an application in private, “Member of the staff of the Disclosure and Barring Service.” (b) secure that any hearing is to be held in private, and (c) ensure that notice of an application (or of any order Freedom of Information Act 2000 being made) is not given to— 117D In Part 6 of Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information (i) the person to whom the authorisation or notice Act 2000 (other public bodies and offices: general) insert at the which is the subject of the application or order appropriate place— relates, or “The Disclosure and Barring Service.”’.—(James (ii) such a person’s representatives.’. Brokenshire.) 281 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 282

Schedule 10 For 13 years the previous Administration chipped away at those freedoms and liberties, and in doing so, REPEALS AND REVOCATIONS they did not protect the public. They chipped away at the notion that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Amendments made: 72, page 167, line 23, leave out Not only did they fail to take the DNA profiles of all of ‘Section 10(4) and (6)(d).’. those guilty of a crime; they also provided for the Amendment 73, page 167, line 28, leave out ‘21.’ and indefinite retention of the DNA profiles of more than insert ‘19. 1 million innocent people. They treated more than a quarter of the whole work force—some 11 million Section 21.’. people—as potential abusers of children and vulnerable adults, by requiring them to be monitored as part of an overbearing vetting and barring system. —[James Brokenshire.] The previous Government chipped away at the right to liberty by seeking to extend the maximum period of Title pre-charge detention to 42 and even 90 days—until forced by the will of this Parliament to settle for 28 days. Amendment made: 75, line 8 leave out They then made 28 days the norm rather than the ‘provide for a maximum detention period of 14 days’ exception. They chipped away at the historic right of and insert trial by jury; they chipped away at the notion that ‘amend the maximum detention period’.—(James Brokenshire.) people should be able to live in safety and security in their own homes by creating hundreds of new powers of Third Reading entry; and they chipped away at our right to privacy by Queen’s consent signified. creating a number of enormous Government databases— the national identity register and ContactPoint being 9.1 pm but the worst examples. The Bill continues the work of this Government in The Secretary of State for the Home Department repairing the damage done to our traditional freedoms (Mrs Theresa May): I beg to move, That the Bill be now and historic civil liberties, while at the same time taking read the Third time. a careful and proportionate approach to protecting the The first responsibility of any Government is to keep public. In adopting the protections of the Scottish the British public safe and free. That means protecting model for the national DNA database, it strikes the them from crime, terrorism and other threats, but it also right balance between protecting our communities and means defending our democratic institutions, our liberties protecting the rights of the innocent. When people are and our way of life. This Government are determined to convicted or cautioned for a recordable offence, their cut crime and reduce the risk of terrorism, at the same DNA and fingerprints will be retained indefinitely, exactly time as we restore the freedoms and liberties that define as happens now. In all cases in which DNA and fingerprints British society. are taken on arrest, they will be subject to a speculative search so that past offenders cannot evade justice, exactly Mr Cash: Will my right hon. Friend be kind enough as happens now. Under this Government, criminals to give way? who leave their DNA at a crime scene will not be able to escape justice if they are arrested again. Mrs May: I can never resist my hon. Friend, although Moreover, we are now taking the DNA of all convicted I give way always with a certain degree of trepidation prisoners, including hundreds who were convicted for and a suspicion that one word will always come into his the most serious offences such as murder and rape. That question. is something that the last Government failed to do. In June last year, we started a programme to identify Mr Cash: I am grateful to the Home Secretary—and individuals in the community who have previously been may I congratulate her on her staunch statement at the convicted of either a sexual offence or homicide, and party conference on the repeal of the Human Rights whom the last Government failed to place on the DNA Act? As she has not yet an opportunity to do so, would database. That process has so far identified more than she like to reaffirm on the Floor of the House that she 13,000 people whose identities have been passed to local would like to see it repealed? police forces, and we are now working with the police to find the individuals and obtain samples. When someone Mrs May: I am happy to confirm that to my hon. is not convicted of an offence, however, there will be Friend. At the general election, Conservative Members, strict limits on the period during which that person’s of course, stood on a manifesto that promised to do just DNA and fingerprints can be retained. That is exactly that. As I have said, we will also bring forward some as it should be: justice is not served, and our communities changes to the immigration rules to ensure what we are not made safer, by the stockpiling of the DNA and consider to be the correct balance in the operation of fingerprints of hundreds of thousands of innocent people article 8 of the human rights convention. for year after year. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) The Bill includes sensible measures to help to maintain was trying to tempt me to go down a road that I know I public confidence in the use of CCTV and automatic should not go down any further on Third Reading of number plate recognition systems. CCTV is a valuable this Bill. Let me return to the point I was making about crime-fighting tool, which also helps to reduce the fear the balance between keeping the public safe and defending of crime—we saw that most recently after the summer’s our liberties. riots—but it will not be able to continue to deliver such 283 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 284 benefits if cameras are perceived to be spying on I have already paid tribute to the members of the communities, or if they simply do not work as they Committee and to all Members who have contributed should. We saw that most recently in the west midlands, to our various debates on the Bill. I wish to pay particular where the installation of CCTV systems without the tribute to the tireless and sterling work done by the support of the local community meant that public Department’s Under-Secretaries, my hon. Friends the confidence was lost and the cause of community safety Members for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) was set back. By providing for a code of practice and for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone). overseen by a new surveillance camera commissioner, They have steered the Bill through its parliamentary the Bill will help to ensure that CCTV retains public stages with great skill—and, I must say, significant support and therefore continues to be an effective tool patience in dealing with all the issues that have been in fighting crime. raised. I also thank all the officials who have worked on The Bill also applies much-needed common sense to the Bill. the criminal records regime and the vetting and barring As a result of Members’ scrutiny, the Committee and scheme. Let me make one thing absolutely clear: the subsequently the House have agreed a number of important protection of children and vulnerable adults is of paramount changes to the Bill. We have clarified the circumstances importance to this Government, and robust systems for in which DNA may be retained for a period where employment vetting play a vital part in ensuring that it someone has been arrested for, but not charged with, a is provided, but tying up employers and voluntary serious offence. We have further clarified the extent of organisations in red tape and bureaucracy does no one regulated activity, including bringing those working any good. I do not think it is sensible to force some with 16 and 17-year-olds within scope and making 11 million people to register with a Government agency, provision for statutory guidance to be issued to regulated and I do not really think—and I doubt that the right activity providers. We have also provided for the hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford establishment of the new disclosure and barring service (Yvette Cooper) really thinks—that 11 million people to give a more efficient end-to-end service to employers should be continually monitored. and voluntary organisations. Further, we have strengthened There was a real danger that the very scale of the the protection for motorists in private car parks at the vetting and barring scheme designed by the previous same time as we have provided further help for landowners Administration would create a culture of irresponsibility to combat unauthorised parking. in which employers felt that it was not up to them to We are fortunate that in this country, it has not taken protect children or vulnerable adults in their care. Employers bloody wars and violent revolutions to weave into the must take their responsibilities seriously, and when innocent very fabric of our society and parliamentary democracy people are treated like suspects, it is society that suffers. the freedoms and liberties that we hold so dear. We take The Bill has been much improved by the process of them for granted at our peril. Once lost, they are not scrutiny undertaken by this House. I thank all the easily regained. They need to be nurtured and protected. members of the Public Bill Committee for their detailed It is in this spirit that I wholeheartedly commend the and forensic examination of it, and I thank all Members Protection of Freedoms Bill to the House, and look who contributed to the debates on Report. forward to its safe and speedy passage through the other place. Andrew Miller: Unfortunately we did not manage to 9.12 pm complete our scrutiny, because of the timetabling of the Bill. One issue that was brought to my attention by Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) Universities UK was the potential for application of the (Lab): I join the Home Secretary in thanking all hon. Freedom of Information Act to impede international Members who have toiled throughout the passage of collaboration in research. That was dealt with in the the Bill, and pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002, and I for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), whom I congratulate on tried to insert a parallel provision in this Bill. Will the his appointment to the shadow Cabinet, and my hon. right hon. Lady instruct the appropriate Minister to Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), who, meet representatives of Universities UK to discuss the conveniently, has been moved to the Department for issue as a matter of urgency? Culture, Media and Sport just in time for the Olympics. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. As upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), who has done important the hon. Gentleman knows, we are discussing the Bill as work particularly on child protection, and my hon. it is now, not the new clauses that were not reached. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), who has kept us all in order. I thank, too, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and my Andrew Miller: I was trying to improve it. hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who in the last couple of days have stepped in admirably Mr Deputy Speaker: I understand that, and I am sure to steer the debate through its final stages in this House. that the hon. Gentleman has been very helpful. There are sensible measures in the Bill that we support, such as removing old convictions for gay sex, removing Mrs May: I think the hon. Gentleman, and I take a restrictions on marriage, adding sensible extensions to different view on the issue he raises about scientific freedom of information and putting in place tighter research and the application of freedom of information restrictions on the Regulation of Investigatory Powers provisions. However, although we disagree, I am happy Act 2000 and stop and search powers. We also welcome to ensure that an appropriate Minister will be available the action on rogue wheel clampers, but we would have to meet Universities UK and discuss this matter with it. preferred the Government to have gone further by 285 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 286

[Yvette Cooper] she oppose the whole Bill then, but she failed to enact those provisions when that should have happened, straight taking further action on rogue ticketers. We agree, too, after the general election. She waited for a year to get with the principle of moving down to 14 days of pre-charge round to it, and she still has not enacted the provisions detention. However, the Home Secretary was unwise in Labour’s Act to take DNA from people who commit not to have made changes as a result of the last debate, crimes abroad. in which Members from both sides of the House who As for the provisions in this Bill, the Home Secretary served on the Joint Committee that she set up raised is ignoring the evidence. She is ignoring not only the concerns that the mechanism that she has put in place evidence from the police, who estimate that 1,000 fewer to deal with emergencies will be impractical and unworkable. crimes will be solved every year as a result of these Why did she set up a Committee if she was just going to measures, and the wise words from my right hon. Friend ignore its expert views? the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle We have some serious and deep concerns about the (Alan Johnson), who tabled amendments, but the evidence Bill, however, which mean that we cannot support it that Ministers tried to hide, which was produced by tonight. We agree with making changes to child protection, their own Department. It shows that every year crimes especially now that Criminal Records Bureau checks will be committed by 23,000 people who would have can be made portable, but it is vital that as we do so, we been on the DNA database under Labour’s plans but make sure this House can reassure parents throughout will not be on it under her plans. We are talking about the country that sensible and strong safeguards are still 23,000 criminals each year, and these are cases in which in place to protect their children. she wants to make it harder for the police to bring them The Government cannot now do that, as a result of to justice. Some 17,000 rape suspects will be taken off this Bill, because they are creating serious loopholes in the database straight away as a result of these measures. child protection. They have been urged to close them Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con) not just by our Front-Bench team but by the National rose— Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Action for Children, the Children’s Society, the Government’s Yvette Cooper: I will give way to the hon. and learned own Children’s Commissioner, the Scouts, the Rugby Gentleman, but I ask him whether he can give a good Football Union, UK Athletics and many more sports reason for removing those 17,000 rape suspects so swiftly organisations. The Government have consistently ignored from the database, against the advice and the pleas from their advice. Rape Crisis. I wonder how many Conservative Members realise what they voted for in the Lobby this afternoon. They Stephen Phillips: I am grateful for the right hon. voted to stop someone who has committed a sexual Lady’s anticipation of what my intervention might be. offence against children being automatically barred from What would she say, and what would her party say, to working with them in future. Conservative Members the millions of innocent people who regard it as offensive voted today to stand up for the right of convicted child that their DNA is retained when they have never been rapists not to be included on a barred list: that is what convicted of any crime whatsoever? Is that really the they voted for. The Bill also means that if someone who policy that the Labour party thinks ought to be pursued has been barred for grooming a child applies for a in this country? supervised post working with children, the organiser Yvette Cooper: I point out to the hon. and learned will not be told that they have been barred. Gentleman that that is his policy and that of his party. The Government have chosen to stand up for the That is what he has voted for. People will be on the privacy of people who have been barred by the experts DNA database who have not been convicted of any from working with children, against the concerns of crime, but his party wants to hold their DNA for three head teachers, sports organisations, children’s charities years, based on no evidence whatsoever, whereas we and, above all, parents who want to know that their believe that it should be held for six years, based on the children are safe. I say to the Home Secretary very evidence, because that is the best way to ensure that we strongly, as a parent, that parents across this country do get the balance right between protecting people’s civil not want to discover that a voluntary teaching assistant liberties and ensuring that we can take the action needed or a supervised sports coach who spends hours with to solve crime. The hon. and learned Gentleman has their child has, in fact, been barred by the experts from not given an answer to Rape Crisis and others who are ever working with children again, but that—thanks to deeply concerned about the impact of these measures the Home Secretary’s decision to protect that person’s on our ability to prevent rapes and to solve rapes in privacy—nobody was told. That is the consequence of future. her Bill; it is the decision that Government Members We know that every year there are nearly 5,000 cases have just voted to support. in which someone has been arrested on suspicion of It is not just on child protection that the Government rape and the police believe that there is a case to answer are getting the balance wrong. The Home Secretary’s and have passed the file to the Crown Prosecution decisions on DNA will also make it harder, not easier, Service, but the CPS has decided—we know that rape for the police to fight crime. She has talked with pride cases can be complex—not to charge. In all such cases, about the 13,000 convicted criminals that she wants to the DNA will be wiped straight away under this put on the DNA database, but what she fails to point Government’s proposals, despite the fact that there is out is that taking retrospective DNA, which we strongly considerable evidence, as well as the concerns raised by agree with, was made possible only by Labour’s Crime organisations such as Rape Crisis, that more, not less, and Security Act 2010, which was passed before the needs to be done to tackle the crime of rape and to general election and which she opposed. Not only did bring more rapists to justice. 287 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 288

Government Members have their priorities wrong if is an issue on which the Government and the Opposition they think that it is more important to keep people’s will continue to disagree. Liberal Democrats understand DNA for three years rather than six than it is to solve victims’ concerns, but there is little evidence that the 1,000 more crimes, that it is more important to do that Opposition have any real appreciation of civil liberties than to have DNA matches for 23,000 more criminals and civil liberty concerns. On far too many occasions, each year, and that it is more important to protect the Opposition spokesmen have in effect written the headlines rights of a rape suspect to keep their DNA code off the for some of our tabloid newspapers, which I find somewhat database altogether than to take the action that Rape distasteful. Crisis has called for to make it easier to catch rapists in On CCTV, the Government propose regulation, not future. obstruction. The Opposition have sought to make the Finally, on CCTV, which was critical in identifying point that the Government actively seek to oppose the culprits in the riots, the Bill adds layers of bureaucracy CCTV,but that is clearly not the Government’s intention. that make it harder for the police to do their job. Rather, it is their intention, as reflected in the Bill, to We believe that it is important to protect people’s ensure that CCTV is deployed in a way that secures freedom, but protecting people’s freedom means not public support. Clearly, there is a huge amount of just protecting them against unwarranted interference public support for it, but Members will be aware of at by the police or by the state but protecting them against least one occasion on which that public support was not unwarranted interference, abuse or violence by other there because there was some subterfuge around the people. Freedom means protecting people from crime, reasons for the deployment of CCTV. too. The measures to which the Home Secretary objected As the Home Secretary has said, subjecting 11 million in her speech helped cut crime by 40% and mean that people to a vetting and barring scheme would be deemed there are now millions fewer victims of crime each year by most people in most countries to have a real impact because we brought crime down. Yes, balancing acts on people’s civil liberties, and operating a system that and difficult decisions are required, and the freedom of captured the details of many hundreds of thousands of victims of crime as well as the freedom of crime suspects people who would not present any threat would have should be considered. Decisions should be based on real practical implications. The Government have reminded evidence, and time and again the Government have organisations of the need to maintain vigilance—that either ditched or denied the evidence in front of them. they should actively consider scenarios and the The Home Secretary has made great play of attacking circumstances in which people work and accept that the Human Rights Act 1998, which at its heart includes they have a responsibility to ensure that appropriate protection for people’s freedom against oppression or safeguards and monitoring of staff are in place. abuse, but we should be clear that it is not the Human I am sure that every hon. Member has had cases of Rights Act that is putting privacy for child sex offenders wheel-clamping raised with them. I had a particularly ahead of sensible child protection measures, or putting disturbing case involving a woman whose vehicle was the privacy of rape suspects above action to prevent clamped on her own estate when she accidentally failed rape in future, but this Government. It is not the Human to display the appropriate permit. She ended up recovering Rights Act that is putting three years of holding DNA her vehicle from a site about 15 miles away, which she above action to solve 1,000 crimes a year, but a had to go to with her young child. She managed to Conservative-led Government. Although the Home secure the vehicle, but only after handing over a large Secretary is very keen to be tough on the Human Rights sum of money to men with large Doberman dogs. I am Act, it would be rather more effective if she were sure that other hon. Members have had similar experiences tougher on crime and made it easier for the police to do reported to them. their job. We believe that this is a risky Bill that puts at risk Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does the hon. freedom for crime victims, makes it harder for the police Gentleman accept that the danger of the Bill is that to do their job and ignores important evidence about those same people become rogue ticketers rather than the way in which crimes need to be solved. That is why rogue clampers? we cannot support it on Third Reading, and will vote against it tonight. Tom Brake: Clearly, that is a risk, although as we heard yesterday, in practice that did not happen in 9.24 pm Scotland. If parking operators want keepers’ details from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, they Tom Brake: In some respects, this is a Christmas tree have to be members of the British Parking Association, of a Bill, but given that each bauble on the tree represents which will ensure a high standard. If there are issues one of our cherished and fundamental freedoms, we around BPA members, I am sure that the Government can forgive the Home Office for that. Given the extent will want actively to take that up with the BPA to ensure and range of its measures, it goes a long way towards that its standards are enhanced. restoring many of our most fundamental freedoms. Pre-charge detention is reduced to 14 days and the Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): indiscriminate and in many ways ineffective use of stop The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that there and search is ended. has been no issue or contention about the proposed The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said measures in Scotland, as is the case with DNA retention, that he did not like the concept of balancing civil regardless of what we heard from the former Home liberties and security because he felt that they were Secretary. We in the SNP will support the Government intertwined. I agree; the DNA measures ensure that we this evening. Anything that tackles Labour’s anti-civil intertwine civil liberties and people’s safety. Clearly that libertarian state deserves the support of the House. 289 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 290

[Pete Wishart] it an extraordinary paradox that that went alongside taking away more and more powers and rights from the However, will the right hon. Gentleman assure me that, British people, when we should have been the very as a Liberal Democrat, he will do all that he can to origin of their liberties and the first line of defence of ensure that the Conservatives remain on this road and their freedoms. that we continue to have good civil liberties and do not I take issue with only one thing the Home Secretary go back to the bad old days of Labour? said in her admirable speech: she said that liberties had not only been taken for granted, but been achieved Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his without violence. Unfortunately they had to be fought intervention—for once a helpful intervention from the for in this country, but it was so long ago that we no Opposition Benches. I assure him that I am confident longer remember those who died in those conflicts. that the coalition Government want to maintain a There was a civil war in this country in support of strong and direct focus on the whole issue of civil freedoms and rights, there were other battles, riots and liberties. rebellions, and over the years the British people expressed It seems to me that the use of fingerprinting and their democratic wish. At the heart of that democracy biometrics in schools was one of the things that just was not only this representative democracy here in slipped through and that no one in the Opposition, Westminster, but the fundamental liberties of the British when in government, had thought about whether it was people: the right to a fair trial and the right not to be okay for children to have their fingerprints taken. It detained by the strength and might of the state without required the coalition Government to step in and say cause being given and without movement to trial on a that parents should be able to express a view on the speedy basis. taking of personal biometric data from children, rather Of all the measures set out in the Bill, I am proudest than having it imposed by schools. of the Government’s decision to roll back the number Disregarding convictions for consensual gay sex is of days of detention that is permitted without due another significant step forwards for gay rights, which I cause being given, and I hope that the Government will am pleased the Government appear intent on pursuing always want to ensure that they arrest and detain people in relation to gay marriage. Datasets being available for only when they have reasonable evidence and when they reuse will improve transparency in government. intend to move quickly to trial. If the Government are I will point out one bauble that was missing from the still, understandably, worried about terrorism, surely it Christmas tree: provisions on insulting and section 5 of is better that we put people under surveillance from a the Public Order Act 1986. Even if that is missing, I am distance, do not arrest them until we are absolutely sure pleased that the Government are fully committed to a of their part in the potential terrorist cell or threat, and consultation on that, because it is something I want then make the arrest and bring the case. I am distrustful changed. We should be able to insult people as freely as of arresting people on poor suspicion and then not we like, as we do all the time in the House, so long as we being able to bring any case against them in a court of do not incite hatred. We need to make that distinction law. I thought that we were fighting for a democracy and I hope that that change will be forthcoming. where such things did not happen, so I find it unacceptable I am very proud that the Bill will be one of the first that for a period of years they did happen in our that the coalition Government put on the statute book. country, whatever good or well intentioned reason lay We have proved without a shadow of a doubt that, behind it. where there is a will, Governments can strengthen civil I am also pleased that the Bill has tackled other liberties and safeguard safety and security—a fact that irritations and annoyances in our bureaucracy. The we had forgotten after 13 years of Labour rule. Home Secretary is quite right that 1,200 separate powers of entry into our households is unacceptable in a free society, so I am pleased that the Bill makes a modest 9.32 pm start in trying to roll them back, but it gives the House Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I rise to an enabling power to get rid of some of those powers of support the Bill. I am very pleased that the Government entry by subsequent order. The list in the legislation is wish to strengthen our civil liberties. It is the prime duty small, on the whole historical and will not have much of this House to be the fount of our democracy and its impact, so I hope that my right hon. Friend and her principal defender, and part of our democracy is the dedicated team of enthusiastic Ministers will now go right to a fair trial, the right to be presumed innocent out and cull that list of 1,200 entry powers and not only until proven guilty and the right to be treated with agree with me that such activity should not take place in respect as a citizen of this country. Many of us feel that a free society, but be brave enough to come forward in recent years too many powers have been taken away with a list of a few hundred such entry powers that we from our citizens and that the presumption of guilt was can do without. visited upon those who had not stood a fair trial. An Englishman or Englishwoman should not have to Indeed, some people were detained with no trial ever in fear the knock at the door. I used to read about that sort prospect, which I found profoundly shocking. of thing in Russian novels, and I do not expect it in my As someone who is well aware of the threat of terrorism, own country, but too many decent, law-abiding, taxpaying having been on terrorist death lists when we had a and hard-working citizens do now fear the call of the different kind of terrorism, I understand the need to bureaucrat, because they think that some of the legislation tackle it, but I have never felt that we should tackle it at is too pernickety, not well intentioned and will be the expense of the civil liberties of the British people. enforced perversely against them—[Interruption.] If Having watched this House give away all too many of the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) would its powers to do good to the Brussels bureaucracy, I find like to intervene and share his dissent, I shall be very 291 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 292 happy to give way, but I hope that he, like me, wishes to Mark Tami: Does the right hon. Gentleman not belong to a free society and feels that people should be accept that a lot of people were caught through CCTV— innocent until proven guilty. and through DNA evidence, which the Bill would destroy?

Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): It was not Mr Redwood: I am just making the point that there like that during the miners’ strike, was it? I remember was an easier way of capturing a lot of those criminals them coming and knocking on my door several times. and that what the police decided to do was welcome. I am not saying that there should be no CCTV in future, Mr Redwood: I apply exactly the same rules and and I do not believe that that is the intention behind the philosophy to miners as to anybody else. If things were Bill; its use, however, should be proportionate and done wrongly, it is quite wrong that they were so done, sensible. and the hon. Gentleman would need to show evidence CCTV should be used in such a way that the law-abiding and case, but I believe in the freedoms of the British community feel that it is in their interests and not being people. There are too many inspectors who can come to used against them. There are now cases in which the call and too many rights of entry, so we do not just need law-abiding community feels that CCTV is too intrusive this piece of legislation. We need to pursue it, coming and does not help tackle crime as they would like. Some forward with a sensible list of proposals under this law, of that can be tackled by the welcome change in police so that we can reduce the incursions upon our freedom. tactics that we saw recently. It will not all be tackled in I am delighted that the Home Secretary has listened that way, because there will be cases in which the to the complaints about the way in which some car robbing, rioting or looting is spontaneous and the police parks are administered. People are not serious criminals are not there immediately when it breaks out. In those if they have broken parking rules, and sometimes the circumstances, CCTV can help. responses by private operators, whom the Bill addresses, have been way over the top. They can also be over the Mark Tami: Has anyone from the law-abiding top from public sector operators, who are meant after community come to see the right hon. Gentleman to all to help the public, not to stop them driving to the ask for CCTV to be removed from their area? shops because of their heavy bags or whatever they need to do. We need a sense of proportion in parking Mr Redwood: Constituents have put to me the case rules, regulations and enforcement, and the Bill makes a against and in favour; it depends where the CCTV is, welcome contribution to dealing with the issue. what it is going to be used for, whether it is going to be It is also important that the Government have listened effective and whether it provides value for money. It to the many representations that we have all received needs to be properly appraised and used so that people over the months since Labour made proposals concerning feel that it makes a contribution. the administration of Criminal Records Bureau checks. I am also glad that the Government have had another The thing that caused me most concern about the look at stop-and-search; we want stop-and-search powers previous Government’s proposals was the lack of a to be used only when the police have good reason to be passport—the lack of common sense. One could have a suspicious and the response is therefore proportionate. perfectly good peripatetic teacher, who was going to Abusing or over-using the power is not proportionate. spend two weeks in one school, three weeks in another Good police would not do that, but the Bill makes the and all the rest of it, but they apparently had to go Government’s intentions clear. through the cost and palaver of being checked over I know that other Members wish to speak in the each time for each assignment, when any sensible person limited time available, so I shall sum up. The Bill is an would have issued them with a letter or certificate at the extremely welcome contribution to restoring the liberties beginning, saying, “This is a peripatetic teacher, at this of the British people, and it should be our prime duty to date they were all clear.” uphold those. I have identified some that I think are Obviously, we might want to check up on such people most important. If I had to single out just one, it would at periodic intervals, but not every fortnight or every be the change in the approach to detention without trial three weeks when they change school. The situation was or without a proper charge having being made; that is completely crazy, so I am glad that we have a passport absolutely fundamental to our civil liberties. and that the Home Secretary has also found a way to The Government can go much further on the intrusion reduce the number of such people from 11 million, and powers of entry, which have got out of control. One given that many grandparents, uncles and aunts were of the reasons why we have so many criminals now is tied up in the crazy process because they were trying to that we have so many laws that make people criminals. help not just the children of their own family, but their It would be welcome if there were fewer crimes in our children’s friends, and fell foul of the regulations. We laws and if we concentrated on the really serious crimes needed some common sense and proportionality in all instead of giving the state enormous powers to turn that. anybody’s conduct into a crime if they do not happen to CCTV can play an important role, but I was pleased agree with a particular part of the bureaucracy or if when the tactics of the police changed in response to they make a mistake under the bureaucrats’ methods of the recent looting and rioting. They decided that it was procedure. probably easier to arrest people at the scene of the crime so that they were their own witnesses; if several Andrew Miller: How does the right hon. Gentleman police say that a person was involved and they arrest square that statement with the fact that crime is falling? them on the spot, the court will believe them. That is better than trying to work out who the person was a Mr Redwood: If overall crime is falling, that is extremely week or two later from CCTV images that might not welcome news, although there are disputes about the have caught the person’s face to best effect. figures. But it is obvious that the last Government 293 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 294

[Mr Redwood] one takes all crime into consideration, then DNA will not count for much, but when it comes to murder and created an enormous number of new offences, without suchlike, the percentage will be a great deal higher. which we lived perfectly well for hundreds of years. We need to review how many criminal offences are on the Nicola Blackwood: I take all issues of crime and the statute book. victims of crime extremely seriously, and so must this House. I would not distinguish between them in that Stephen Phillips: Does my right hon. Friend agree way. that we probably did not need the new criminal offence, I move on to the question of a six-year limit versus a introduced by the last Government, of impeding an three-year limit. The Opposition have decided to lay the apricot orchard inspector in the course of his duties? accusation that their choice of six years is based on Mr Redwood: My hon. and learned Friend has come secure evidence, but one of their pieces of so-called up with an admirable example that I did not know statistical evidence was based on an extremely small about; there are many others, but we do not have the sample that was carried out by the Jill Dando Institute time to list them all. I hope that the Home Secretary for Crime Science. Its director later noted, in and her colleagues will review the number of crimes so September 2009, that that research study that we can concentrate on the serious ones—the ones “was probably a mistake with hindsight, we should have just said that most people consider to be proper crimes—rather ‘you might as well just stick your finger in the air and think of a than spending so much time arguing about and enforcing number’”. things of rather less significance, for the convenience of some bureaucrats and not others. Stephen Phillips: Does my hon. Friend agree that there is no magic in six years, as the right hon. Member I know that others wish to speak, Mr Speaker— for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) would have us believe? There is no significant or substantial Mr Speaker: Order. May I interrupt the right hon. evidence that supports six years; it is a number that has Gentleman? It is always a great pleasure to listen to his simply been plucked from the air in an opportunistic mellifluous tones and the content of his argument. I attempt to attack the Bill. simply say to him that he is not under any obligation to conclude if he does not wish to. If he does wish to, however, he can. Nicola Blackwood: The decision to go for three years is based on the recommendation of the Home Affairs Hon. Members: More, more! Committee, which took extensive evidence on the issue. Three years versus six years is merely a matter of Mr Redwood: I am grateful for your generous judgment. Furthermore, it will be three years plus an intervention, Mr Speaker, but I have been warned that extension of two years, to ensure that there would be two other colleagues wish to speak. It would be discourteous the option of retaining the DNA for five years. I weigh to them and the House not to let them, so I draw my that against the fact that the Bill will remove the DNA remarks to a close. of 1 million innocent people from the database—people who feel that they have been criminalised by the system Mr Speaker: Order. The Question is that the Bill— that was put in place. It was done with the best of [Interruption.] Well, it is helpful if colleagues stand if intentions, to ensure that victims are protected—that is they are seeking to catch my eye. The Speaker has some well understood—but it is important to bring proportion qualities, but he is not psychic. into the system, and that is what the Government’s proposals are designed to do. 9.45 pm Andrew Miller: Will the hon. Lady give way? Nicola Blackwood: I rise to speak as someone who was a member of the Committee scrutinising the Bill. It Nicola Blackwood: I will move on to CCTV,as another is the first Bill that I have followed through from beginning colleague wishes to speak. to end and the experience has been, in equal measure, a joy, an insight, and, at times, a disappointment. No one is claiming that CCTV does not have a Starting with DNA, there has been a lot of talk about valuable role to play. The claim that violent criminals the need to balance the rights of victims and the civil will go free because the Government intend to reduce liberties of the public, but there has not been a lot of the number of CCTV cameras by introducing a voluntary balanced rhetoric in those discussions. Nobody doubts regulatory code is unimaginably inaccurate. The regulatory that DNA is a crucial investigatory tool for the police, code is intended to ensure that it is possible to know but it is just one of the tools at their discretion. One of where cameras will be placed. There will be consultation the pieces of evidence given to the Home Affairs Committee with the community so that there can be support from when it looked into the issue was that an average of the community. Given that a major concern is the fear 0.67% of convictions rely on DNA evidence. It is important of crime and the escalation of the fear of crime, I feel to remember that when the Opposition cite endless that this is a move in the right direction. cases in which they say that otherwise people would not One concern that police have raised is that they have been brought to book. struggle to deal with many CCTV cameras being turned in the wrong direction, switched off or not functioning John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): I accept properly.A regulatory framework will give the opportunity the point that the hon. Lady is trying to make, but to improve quality across the CCTV network and ensure would it not be fairer to say that in serious crimes the that we improve crime detection by having a CCTV percentage will be a great deal higher than 0.67%? If network that is functioning properly across the board. 295 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 296

The concern of everybody in this House is first and Stephen Phillips: The hon. Gentleman expresses a foremost the protection of children. There is not one view with regard to his judgment, but it is a view— Member of this House who does not want to ensure that children are protected in every possible way. There Andrew Miller: It is not judgment, it is a fact. is no doubt that that is the case, but even with the current vetting and barring system, under which 9.3 million Stephen Phillips: It is an exercise of judgment, and in people are routinely monitored, problems of child protection my judgment and that of the Government whom I have persisted. I was particularly concerned by evidence support, three years is sufficient to retain DNA. Making given to the Public Bill Committee that the Independent inroads into the civil liberties that we have come to Safeguarding Authority has not been passing on to the expect and respect, and that we wish to have in this police concerns that it has received about individuals or country, is not a reason to go beyond three years. The information about individuals who have been barred. hon. Gentleman debates whether to retain for three or People in schools who have had concerns passed to six years, but I ask him and the whole House, where is them have also not been passing those concerns on to the magic in the six-year figure? If six years, why not the police, although that might be because of concerns nine? If nine, why not 15? If 15, why not retain the about children’s privacy or their being upset. I welcome DNA of 11 million people never convicted of a crime the Government’s move to produce guidance and I urge for the entirety of their lives and into the future? that that guidance be written in the strongest possible terms, because I find it inexplicable that the ISA has not Andrew Miller: Simply because the curve produced considered it a primary duty routinely to inform the by the self-same Home Office as produced the Bill police of its concerns about child protection. demonstrates what the former Home Secretary, my Of course, I also welcome the reforms of stop and right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull search, the reduction of pre-charge detention periods West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), said: that there is a and the requirement for consent to use biometrics in clear mathematical relationship and in six years we have schools. I cannot imagine why anybody would want to a way of dealing very neatly with a substantially greater take fingerprints or obtain biometric information from number of potential criminals than the three-year period children in schools. offers. I know that another colleague wishes to speak, so I will conclude by saying that over the past 10 years, the Stephen Phillips: So there we are, the House has it—it Labour party has given away liberties without evidence, is a curve. Does that not savour of the statistics, initiatives, as far as I can see, that doing so would make us safer. Our targets and strategies that we had from the last Government? democracy and our people’s confidence in their country Is it not about time that hon. Members started exercising is weaker for that. I am happy to support the Bill. judgment with regard to what is important? In my judgment, what is important is that the British people 9.53 pm are entitled to have their liberties respected. They were not respected under the last Government, and this Stephen Phillips: I rise, of course, to lend my support coalition Government are beginning to address the to this welcome Bill and to thank the Government for inroads that the last Government made into the liberties starting to deal with the plethora of inroads into our of the British people. civil liberties that were made by the last Labour I am going to draw my remarks to a close—[HON. Administration. MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] Well, I am pleased to have My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton some assent from the Opposition Benches. We have a and Wallington (Tom Brake) said that this is a Christmas Bill before the House of which we can all be proud, and tree of a Bill. It deals with a number of separate matters I urge right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition or, as he described them, baubles on the tree. It is none Benches who sat idly by while the liberties of the British the less welcome for the simple reason, of which the House people were not respected to go through the Aye Lobby will be aware, that inroads into the fundamental freedoms tonight and give the Bill the Third Reading it deserves. that this House exists to protect and that we have taken Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third for granted for the entirety of our lives and our history time. need only be made, in short order, for us to subsequently to see further inroads made into those liberties, in a way The House divided: Ayes 320, Noes 227. that none of us in this House ought to welcome. Division No. 362] [9.58 pm One has only to consider the point I put to the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford AYES (Yvette Cooper) about the retention of the DNA of Adams, Nigel Barwell, Gavin innocent persons to know that the last Labour Government Afriyie, Adam Bebb, Guto struck the wrong balance. The proposals in the Bill, in Aldous, Peter Beith, rh Sir Alan my judgment—and it is a question of judgment, as my Amess, Mr David Bellingham, Mr Henry hon. Friend the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon Andrew, Stuart Benyon, Richard (Nicola Blackwood) made clear a few moments ago—strike Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Beresford, Sir Paul the right balance. Bacon, Mr Richard Berry, Jake Baker, Norman Bingham, Andrew Andrew Miller: The hon. and learned Gentleman is Baker, Steve Binley, Mr Brian mathematically wrong. It is not a question of judgment, Baldry, Tony Birtwistle, Gordon it is a matter of probability, tending towards certainty, Baldwin, Harriett Blackwood, Nicola because 23,000 people will now be out there with the Barclay, Stephen Blunt, Mr Crispin potential to commit crimes. Baron, Mr John Boles, Nick 297 Protection of Freedoms Bill11 OCTOBER 2011 Protection of Freedoms Bill 298

Bone, Mr Peter Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Ruffley, Mr David Bradley, Karen George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Bob Brady, Mr Graham Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Brake, rh Tom Gilbert, Stephen Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sandys, Laura Bray, Angie Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Brazier, Mr Julian Goldsmith, Zac Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Brine, Mr Steve Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Brokenshire, James Gove, rh Michael Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Brooke, Annette Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Browne, Mr Jeremy Grant, Mrs Helen MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Simmonds, Mark Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Bruce, rh Malcolm Grayling, rh Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Skidmore, Chris Buckland, Mr Robert Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe Burley, Mr Aidan Greening, Justine McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Burns, Conor Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian Burns, rh Mr Simon Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Sir Robert Burrowes, Mr David Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soames, rh Nicholas Burstow, Paul Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Soubry, Anna Burt, Alistair Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burt, Lorely Hames, Duncan Mensch, Louise Spencer, Mr Mark Byles, Dan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Cable, rh Vince Hammond, Stephen Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Cairns, Alun Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, Maria Stewart, Bob Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory Carswell, Mr Douglas Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stride, Mel Cash, Mr William Harvey, Nick Moore, rh Michael Stuart, Mr Graham Chishti, Rehman Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Stunell, Andrew Chope, Mr Christopher Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Sturdy, Julian Clappison, Mr James Heald, Oliver Morris, James Swales, Ian Clark, rh Greg Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Swinson, Jo Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Swire, rh Mr Hugo Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Syms, Mr Robert Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Teather, Sarah Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Thurso, John Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David (Monmouth) Holloway, Mr Adam Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Horwood, Martin O’Brien, Mr Stephen Uppal, Paul de Bois, Nick Hosie, Stewart Offord, Mr Matthew Vaizey, Mr Edward Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Vara, Mr Shailesh Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hughes, rh Simon Opperman, Guy Vickers, Martin Dorries, Nadine Huhne, rh Chris Ottaway, Richard Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Charles Drax, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walker, Mr Robin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Dunne, Mr Philip James, Margot Penning, Mike Walter, Mr Robert Edwards, Jonathan Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Ward, Mr David Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Watkinson, Angela Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Weatherley, Mike Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Phillips, Stephen Webb, Steve Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Weir, Mr Mike Eustice, George Jones, Mr David Pincher, Christopher Wharton, James Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Wheeler, Heather Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Prisk, Mr Mark White, Chris Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris Pugh, John Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Farron, Tim Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Whittaker, Craig Featherstone, Lynne Knight, rh Mr Greg Redwood, rh Mr John Wiggin, Bill Foster, rh Mr Don Kwarteng, Kwasi Rees-Mogg, Jacob Willetts, rh Mr David Fox,rhDrLiam Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Williams, Hywel Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Mr Mark Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Robertson, Hugh Williams, Stephen Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Mr Laurence Williamson, Gavin Fuller, Richard Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Willott, Jenny Gale, Mr Roger Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Wilson, Sammy 299 Protection of Freedoms Bill 11 OCTOBER 2011 300

Wishart, Pete Young, rh Sir George Lazarowicz, Mark Reynolds, Jonathan Wollaston, Dr Sarah Zahawi, Nadhim Leslie, Chris Riordan, Mrs Linda Wright, Jeremy Tellers for the Ayes: Love, Mr Andrew Ritchie, Ms Margaret Wright, Simon Norman Lamb and Lucas, Caroline Robertson, John Yeo, Mr Tim James Duddridge Lucas, Ian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey MacShane, rh Mr Denis Rotheram, Steve Mactaggart, Fiona Roy, Mr Frank NOES Mahmood, Mr Khalid Roy, Lindsay Abbott, Ms Diane Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mahmood, Shabana Ruane, Chris Abrahams, Debbie Dowd, Jim Mann, John Sarwar, Anas Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Doyle, Gemma Marsden, Mr Gordon Seabeck, Alison Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Shannon, Jim Alexander, Heidi Dugher, Michael McCann, Mr Michael Sharma, Mr Virendra Allen, Mr Graham Durkan, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Sheerman, Mr Barry Anderson, Mr David Eagle, Ms Angela McClymont, Gregg Sheridan, Jim Ashworth, Jonathan Eagle, Maria McCrea, Dr William Shuker, Gavin Austin, Ian Efford, Clive McDonagh, Siobhain Simpson, David Bailey, Mr Adrian Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat Skinner, Mr Dennis Bain, Mr William Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Alison Slaughter, Mr Andy Balls, rh Ed Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim Smith, rh Mr Andrew Banks, Gordon Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Smith, Angela Barron, rh Mr Kevin Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann Smith, Nick Bayley, Hugh Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Smith, Owen Beckett, rh Margaret Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Spellar, rh Mr John Begg, Dame Anne Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Straw, rh Mr Jack Bell, Sir Stuart Flynn, Paul Mearns, Ian Stringer, Graham Benn, rh Hilary Fovargue, Yvonne Michael, rh Alun Stuart, Ms Gisela Berger, Luciana Francis, Dr Hywel Miliband, rh David Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Betts, Mr Clive Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Tami, Mark Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gardiner, Barry Moon, Mrs Madeleine Thomas, Mr Gareth Blenkinsop, Tom Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica Thornberry, Emily Blomfield, Paul Glass, Pat Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Timms, rh Stephen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Grahame M. Trickett, Jon Brennan, Kevin Godsiff, Mr Roger (Easington) Turner, Karl Brown, Lyn Goggins, rh Paul Mudie, Mr George Twigg, Derek Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Goodman, Helen Munn, Meg Twigg, Stephen Brown, Mr Russell Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Paul Umunna, Mr Chuka Bryant, Chris Green, Kate Murray, Ian Vaz, Valerie Burden, Richard Griffith, Nia Nandy, Lisa Walley, Joan Burnham, rh Andy Gwynne, Andrew Nash, Pamela Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Alan Hain, rh Mr Peter O’Donnell, Fiona Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Gregory Hamilton, Mr David Onwurah, Chi Wicks, rh Malcolm Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hamilton, Fabian Osborne, Sandra Wilson, Phil Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hanson, rh Mr David Owen, Albert Winnick, Mr David Clark, Katy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pearce, Teresa Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clarke, rh Mr Tom Harris, Mr Tom Perkins, Toby Woodcock, John Pound, Stephen Clwyd, rh Ann Havard, Mr Dai Wright, David Coaker, Vernon Healey, rh John Qureshi, Yasmin Wright, Mr Iain Coffey, Ann Hendrick, Mark Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Connarty, Michael Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reed, Mr Jamie Tellers for the Noes: Cooper, Rosie Hermon, Lady Reeves, Rachel Nic Dakin and Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg Reynolds, Emma Graham Jones Crausby, Mr David Hilling, Julie Creagh, Mary Hodge, rh Margaret Question accordingly agreed to. Creasy, Stella Hood, Mr Jim Cruddas, Jon Hopkins, Kelvin Bill read the Third time and passed. Cryer, John Hunt, Tristram Cunningham, Alex Irranca-Davies, Huw Cunningham, Mr Jim Jackson, Glenda Business without Debate Cunningham, Tony James, Mrs Siân C. Curran, Margaret Jamieson, Cathy Danczuk, Simon Jarvis, Dan Darling, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, rh Alan DEFERRED DIVISIONS David, Mr Wayne Johnson, Diana Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Helen Order No. 41A(3)), Davies, Geraint Jones, Mr Kevan That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred De Piero, Gloria Jones, Susan Elan divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of the Denham, rh Mr John Joyce, Eric Secretary Theresa May relating to Prevention and Suppression of Dobbin, Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Terrorism, and the Motion in the name of Mr Mark Hoban Dobson, rh Frank Kendall, Liz relating to Financial Assistance to Ireland and Portugal.—(Bill Docherty, Thomas Khan, rh Sadiq Wiggin.) Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lammy, rh Mr David Question agreed to. 301 Business without Debate11 OCTOBER 2011 Business without Debate 302

DELEGATED LEGISLATION Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hemming, John Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Carmichael, Neil Hendry, Charles Chishti, Rehman Herbert, rh Nick Order No. 118(6)), Clark, rh Greg Hinds, Damian Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark PREVENTION AND SUPPRESSION OF TERRORISM Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George That the Terrorism Act 2000 (Remedial) Order 2011 (S.I., 2011, Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris No. 631) dated 16 March 2011, a copy of which was laid before Crockart, Mike Horwood, Martin this House on 17 March, be approved.—(Bill Wiggin.) Crouch, Tracey Hosie, Stewart Question agreed to. Davey, Mr Edward Howell, John Davies, David T. C. Hughes, rh Simon Mr Speaker: Before I ask the Whip to move motion (Monmouth) Huhne, rh Chris No. 4, and before any consequent activity or indication, Davies, Glyn Huppert, Dr Julian I ought to say that I think that there is a mistake in Davis, rh Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick de Bois, Nick Jackson, Mr Stewart the wording of the motion. It ought not to say “the Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Committee”; it ought to say “this House”. Members Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Javid, Sajid are nodding knowingly. I am merely reminding them of Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph something of which they were keenly conscious in any Drax, Richard Jones, Andrew case, but there you go. Duddridge, James Jones, Mr David Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Durkan, Mark Kirby, Simon Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Ellis, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Order No. 119(11)), Ellison, Jane Latham, Pauline Ellwood, Mr Tobias Laws, rh Mr David FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO IRELAND AND PORTUGAL Elphicke, Charlie Leadsom, Andrea Eustice, George Lee, Jessica That the Committee takes note of European Union Documents Evans, Graham Lee, Dr Phillip No. 9776/11 relating to a Draft Council implementing Decision on granting Union financial assistance to Portugal, No. 9780/2/11, Evans, Jonathan Lefroy, Jeremy relating to a Council implementing Decision on granting Union Fabricant, Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver financial assistance to Portugal, and No. 9777/11 relating to a Farron, Tim Lewis, Brandon draft Council implementing Decision amending implementing Featherstone, Lynne Lloyd, Stephen Decision 2011/77/EU of 7 December 2010 on granting Union Foster, rh Mr Don Lopresti, Jack financial assistance to Ireland; notes the importance of financial Fox,rhDrLiam Lord, Jonathan stability in the Euro area for the UK; welcomes the recent steps Francois, rh Mr Mark Loughton, Tim being taken by the governments of Ireland and Portugal to Freeman, George Luff, Peter promote growth and return their economies to a sustainable path; Freer, Mike Macleod, Mary welcomes the Government’s success in securing agreement that Fullbrook, Lorraine MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism will cease to Fuller, Richard May, rh Mrs Theresa exist once the permanent, Euro area-only, European Stability Garnier, Mark McCartney, Jason Mechanism becomes operational in July 2013; and that Article 122(2) Gauke, Mr David McCartney, Karl of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU, the basis for the George, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick emergency arrangements, will no longer be needed for such Gibb, Mr Nick McPartland, Stephen purposes.—(Bill Wiggin.) Gilbert, Stephen McVey, Esther The House divided: Ayes 271, Noes 22. Glen, John Mensch, Louise Goldsmith, Zac Menzies, Mark Division No. 363] [10.13 pm Goodwill, Mr Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Gove, rh Michael Miller, Maria AYES Graham, Richard Mills, Nigel Adams, Nigel Boles, Nick Grant, Mrs Helen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Afriyie, Adam Bradley, Karen Grayling, rh Chris Moore, rh Michael Aldous, Peter Brady, Mr Graham Green, Damian Morgan, Nicky Amess, Mr David Brake, rh Tom Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Morris, Anne Marie Andrew, Stuart Bray, Angie Griffiths, Andrew Morris, James Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brazier, Mr Julian Gummer, Ben Mosley, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Brokenshire, James Gyimah, Mr Sam Mowat, David Baker, Norman Brooke, Annette Halfon, Robert Mulholland, Greg Baldry, Tony Browne, Mr Jeremy Hames, Duncan Munt, Tessa Baldwin, Harriett Bruce, Fiona Hammond, rh Mr Philip Murray, Sheryll Barclay, Stephen Bruce, rh Malcolm Hammond, Stephen Murrison, Dr Andrew Barwell, Gavin Buckland, Mr Robert Hancock, Matthew Neill, Robert Bebb, Guto Burley, Mr Aidan Hancock, Mr Mike Newmark, Mr Brooks Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, Conor Harper, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Bellingham, Mr Henry Burns, rh Mr Simon Harrington, Richard Nokes, Caroline Benyon, Richard Burrowes, Mr David Harris, Rebecca Norman, Jesse Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, Alistair Hart, Simon O’Brien, Mr Stephen Berry, Jake Burt, Lorely Harvey, Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Bingham, Andrew Byles, Dan Hayes, Mr John Ottaway, Richard Birtwistle, Gordon Cable, rh Vince Heald, Oliver Parish, Neil Blackwood, Nicola Cairns, Alun Heath, Mr David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Blunt, Mr Crispin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heaton-Harris, Chris Pawsey, Mark 303 Business without Debate11 OCTOBER 2011 Business without Debate 304

Penning, Mike Swinson, Jo and a half hours after their commencement; and such Questions Penrose, John Swire, rh Mr Hugo shall include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Perry, Claire Syms, Mr Robert Speaker which may then be moved; Phillips, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter (2) proceedings on the Motion in the name of Mr Greg Knight Pickles, rh Mr Eric Teather, Sarah on Ministerial Statements may continue until three hours after Pincher, Christopher Thurso, John commencement of proceedings on the Motions specified in Poulter, Dr Daniel Timpson, Mr Edward paragraph (1), and shall then lapse if not previously disposed Prisk, Mr Mark Tomlinson, Justin of.—(Bill Wiggin). Raab, Mr Dominic Tredinnick, David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Truss, Elizabeth Hon. Members: Object. Reid, Mr Alan Uppal, Paul Ritchie, Ms Margaret Vaizey, Mr Edward Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh DELEGATED LEGISLATION Robertson, Hugh Vickers, Martin Robertson, Mr Laurence Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Ordered, Rogerson, Dan Walker, Mr Robin That the motions in the name of Sir George Young relating to Rosindell, Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben the Electoral Commission and the Local Government Boundary Rudd, Amber Walter, Mr Robert Commission for England shall be treated as if they related to Ruffley, Mr David Watkinson, Angela instruments subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 Russell, Bob Weatherley, Mike (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of which notice Rutley, David Webb, Steve has been given that the instruments be approved.—(Bill Wiggin). Sandys, Laura Weir, Mr Mike Scott, Mr Lee Wharton, James Selous, Andrew Wheeler, Heather WELSH GRAND COMMITTEE Shapps, rh Grant White, Chris Ordered, Sharma, Alok Whiteford, Dr Eilidh That— Shelbrooke, Alec Whittaker, Craig Simmonds, Mark Wiggin, Bill (1) the matter of the Government’s Work Programme and its Skidmore, Chris Willetts, rh Mr David implications for Wales be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee Smith, Miss Chloe Williams, Mr Mark for its consideration; Smith, Julian Williams, Roger (2) the Committee shall meet at Wrexham County Council on Smith, Sir Robert Williams, Stephen Thursday 20 October between 11 am and 4 pm to consider the Soubry, Anna Williamson, Gavin matter referred to it under paragraph (1) above.—(Bill Wiggin). Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Willott, Jenny Spencer, Mr Mark Wilson, Mr Rob Stephenson, Andrew Wishart, Pete PROCEDURE Stewart, Bob Wollaston, Dr Sarah Ordered, Stewart, Iain Wright, Jeremy Stewart, Rory That, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 121(2), Young, rh Sir George Stride, Mel Bridget Phillipson be discharged from the Procedure Committee Zahawi, Nadhim Stunell, Andrew and Nic Dakin be added.—(Bill Wiggin). Sturdy, Julian Tellers for the Ayes: Swales, Ian Norman Lamb and Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Stephen Crabb BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (17 OCTOBER) Motion made, NOES That, at the sitting on Monday 17 October, notwithstanding Baker, Steve McCartney, Jason Standing Order No. 14(3A) (Arrangement of public business), Binley, Mr Brian McCrea, Dr William the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of the Campbell, Mr Gregory Nuttall, Mr David proceedings on the Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to the Parliamentary Contributory Pension Fund not Carswell, Mr Douglas Percy, Andrew later than two hours after the commencement of proceedings on Cash, Mr William Redwood, rh Mr John Chope, Mr Christopher the Motion; and such Questions shall include the Questions on Shannon, Jim any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Simpson, David moved.—(Bill Wiggin.) Goldsmith, Zac Turner, Mr Andrew Gray, Mr James Wilson, Sammy Hermon, Lady Hon. Members: Object. Jenkin, Mr Bernard Tellers for the Noes: Lewis, Dr Julian Mr Peter Bone and Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): On a Main, Mrs Anne Mr Philip Hollobone point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you specify the identity of the objector to the motion on the business of the Question accordingly agreed to. House on 17 October so that it can be recorded in Hansard, and also explain the ramifications of the objection? Is it right that that objection will deny the BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (13 OCTOBER) House an opportunity to debate the Hillsborough disaster? Motion made, It had taken 22 years to reach the point at which it was That, at the sitting on Thursday 13 October, scheduled for debate in the Chamber. (1) the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in the name of Mr Greg Knight Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for relating to Hand-held Electronic Devices in the Chamber, Select his point of order— Committee Amendments, Explanatory Statements on Amendments to Bills, and Written Parliamentary Questions not later than one Several hon. Members rose— 305 Business without Debate11 OCTOBER 2011 Business without Debate 306

Mr Speaker: I will take more points of order if they interpret the effect of what was stated, and that he has are on the same matter—or, indeed, on other matters—and done, very clearly, very explicitly, and, of course, very then I will respond. I will take a point of order first publicly, on the record. The right hon. Member for from the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), Leigh has done the same from the Front Bench, but I who is on the Opposition Front Bench, and then, of think that both Members will agree that the Leader of course, I will take one from the Leader of the House. the House has made the Government’s position very clear. Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): Further to the point of I intend to take one more point of order on this order from my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, matter, but I hope that we can then proceed to the next Walton (Steve Rotheram), Mr Speaker. The debate on business. 17 October will be an unprecedented occasion, because 140,000 people signed an e-petition asking for an issue Derek Twigg: Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. that has not been properly debated here for some 22 years It is a worry that we will have to go through this to be brought back to the Floor of the House. They will procedure tomorrow, especially as the Government had regard what has just happened with great dismay. People an idea of what would happen tonight. We have families have already booked travel to the House on that evening, coming down on Monday who have had injustice upon and the families of those who died will be attending our injustice upon injustice heaped upon them, so why did proceedings. Surely it cannot be right for one Member the Government allow this situation to arise tonight? It to stand up—because he wants to talk about his own is ridiculous that they did not sort it out earlier. They pension—and deny those people the opportunity to knew this could happen, and they should have sorted it debate the important issues relating to the Hillsborough out. I just hope that tomorrow we can get through this disaster, and the huge, huge injustice that was done to without any more problems. the families and the people of Liverpool. Mr Speaker: I note what the hon. Gentleman has Mr Speaker: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his said, but the Leader of the House has made his position point of order. clear. I shall make two simple points. First, it is not the business of the Chair to worry; on the whole, it is best Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab) rose— for the Chair not to devote any time to that, and I do not. Secondly, although of course I understand the Mr Speaker: I think it right for the House to hear hon. Gentleman’s feelings, I know he will appreciate from the Leader of the House before I deal with the that it is one thing for him to put his very real irritation point of order from the hon. Member for Halton (Derek and consternation on the record, but it is another thing Twigg). to expect the Chair to seek to extrapolate from every event and offer an interpretation of it. I do not think The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George that is necessary. The Leader of the House has been Young): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. The clear, and I think that is appreciated. Government recognise the strength of feeling about the matter. We intend to table the motion for debate tomorrow, Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Further to that and if it is carried tomorrow—as I hope it will be—the point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to detain the business on Monday will take the shape outlined in House much longer, but I would like to put on the motion 9. record our appreciation on this side of the House for the swift response of the Leader of the House, as a Mr Speaker: I thank the Leader of the House for result of which we can get the position back to where what he has said. we had all intended it to be, so that the families of all the victims—and, indeed, half of Merseyside, who will Several hon. Members rose— be travelling down to listen to the debate on the Hillsborough disaster on Monday—will not be denied Mr Speaker: Before anyone else says anything, let me the chance for this debate to take place in a timely say that I am not sure that that will be necessary. fashion. I feel that I owe a response to the hon. Member for Mr Speaker: I thank the shadow Leader of the House Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), who is a new for what she has said, and now that views have been Member of the House. It is not the practice to name—and expressed, I hope we can proceed to the Adjournment certainly not for the occupant of the Chair to take it debate. [Interruption.] Order. Before I call Mr Jamie upon himself to name—a Member who has uttered the Reed, may I appeal to Members who are leaving the word “Object”. No disorderly practice has taken place. Chamber—if they feel they must leave—to do so quickly There are rules and procedures of the House which and quietly so that the rest of us can listen with interest have been followed. It is for the hon. Gentleman to to the hon. Gentleman? 307 11 OCTOBER 2011 Nuclear Power Production 308 (Sellafield) Nuclear Power Production (Sellafield) I know that the decision to close the Sellafield MOX plant was made with a heavy heart and had been Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House discussed for many years. I again pay tribute to the do now adjourn.—(Bill Wiggin.) Sellafield MOX plant work force, which is among the most talented and able in the country. They did everything humanly possible to turn that plant around. The Minister 10.32 pm has visited the plant, so I know that he knows that. The decision to close the plant is in no way a reflection upon Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): First, I must say either the work force or their abilities, and I will that it is a genuine disappointment that this debate will always work to ensure that they have a meaningful and be overshadowed by a disgraceful attempt by an individual successful future. At this point, I must also mention the Member to thwart the debate on the Hillsborough exemplary work done by the Sellafield work force, the tragedy. That should haunt him for the rest of his days. Sellafield trade unions and the recently re-established I should also point out that the title of this debate is Sellafield Workers Campaign. They undertook vital slightly incorrect. Although I will address power production work in the aftermath of the closure announcement and and other nuclear-related issues in the course of my gave community leadership in that context, and they remarks, the title should refer to future nuclear fuel represent the single best asset that either Sellafield or production at Sellafield. the nuclear industry has. I hope that the Minister and the Secretary of State will agree to join me in meeting I must declare some interests from the outset— those unions and union representatives very soon to somewhere in the region of 16,000 interests, as that is discuss the issues raised in tonight’s debate, as well as the number of jobs that rely on the Sellafield facility in other issues. my constituency. Many people wonder why I spend so much time on these issues, but, frankly, this topic means The Minister will be aware of the importance of the everything to my constituency. It underpins the economy, Sellafield MOX plant, not only to my constituency but the sustainability of population levels, the housing market, to west Cumbria and to Cumbria as a whole. It has our schools, our hospital services, our police service and supported, and currently still supports, thousands of other public services. In fact, it touches every single jobs in an area where the economy is based on public facet of west Cumbrian life, as I know the Minister is spending and the private sector is also based on the well aware. contracts let by that publicly funded investment. Indeed, I must place on record my appreciation to the Minister. a recent study by The Guardian showed that my constituency We have a good working relationship, we share the same was the most heavily reliant on public spending in the understanding of many of the complex issues before us, country, with about 50.3% of its economy based on and I genuinely appreciate the way in which he in public spending. particular has continued to prosecute the policies of the British nuclear renaissance established under the last We know what went wrong at the Sellafield MOX Government. These are issues of the utmost national plant. I have held numerous discussions with the people importance economically, environmentally and in terms involved in that plant from the very beginning—from of energy security, and they require a concerted, long-term the boardroom to the shop floor—and there is a compelling political consensus, particularly with regard to nuclear consensus: the design was wrong; there was a drive to energy and nuclear policy. We both have to contend over-automate processes in the wake of the MOX data with elements in our parties who disagree with that falsification episode, and the best practices, which are view, but the Minister should know that he and I, and usually the simplest practices, from other countries others who share our view, speak for the nation on this adept at MOX fuel production were not followed. The issue. product produced by the Sellafield MOX plant was excellent and the policy drivers that underpin it are In April 2010 I introduced the Nuclear Fuel Cycle impeccable, but the design and implementation of it in (Non-Proliferation and Public Liability) Bill in this that plant were wrong. That said, the case for using the House, and I commend it to the Minister as a template nation’s stockpiled uranium and plutonium dioxide, for future policy. It deals with how this nation treats the whether in a MOX 2 or, theoretically, some other such plutonium and uranium dioxide currently stored at commercial and industrial utilisation, such as General Sellafield in my constituency, about which I will talk Electric-Hitachi’s PRISM—power reactor innovative tonight. I modestly suggest that it is the best Bill of its small module—concept is incontrovertible. kind ever to be introduced in this House, although I also fear that it is probably the only Bill of its kind ever The nuclear industry is one of the few industries that to be introduced here. can facilitate what I call “sweet-spot economics”. That Tonight’s debate takes place against a backdrop of is the support of industries that, by themselves, can the Fukushima disaster and the decision taken in August deliver improvements, progress and, in some cases, solutions to close the Sellafield MOX plant. As is widely understood, to some of the most intractable policy problems facing the two issues were closely related, and I repeat again, as us as a country. In west Cumbria the much admired and a third generation nuclear worker from a community increasingly copied energy coast programme, of which that genuinely understands and appreciates what it is a new MOX plant is a part, is based upon the sweet-spot like to be a nuclear community, my incredible respect theory.The development of the energy coast will: safeguard for and gratitude to all those in Japan who worked to west Cumbria’s economic future; help to rebalance the contain those dreadful events, and my respect for all economy; increase the security of our energy supplies; those affected by them. I know that my community and deliver our non-proliferation objectives; and, in many the Sellafield work force stands ready to help that ways, resolve the long-running policy problem of radioactive community in whatever way we can. waste disposal. 309 Nuclear Power Production 11 OCTOBER 2011 Nuclear Power Production 310 (Sellafield) (Sellafield) [Mr Jamie Reed] On the health issues surrounding the nuclear industry, I am a third generation nuclear worker, and the Sellafield The case for MOX 2 is based upon sweet-spot economics work force are probably the most extensively and as well. There exists at Sellafield tens of thousands of exhaustively studied and investigated work force anywhere tonnes of uranium dioxide and approximately 115 tonnes in the world. The community I represent, which I am of plutonium oxide. The consultations on how to classify very proud to be from, has also been studied and that material recently ended and we now all anxiously investigated exhaustively over decades. There are locks, await the Government’s response. double locks and triple locks from the Government and To put it simply, there is a stark choice to be made. a variety of health bodies about the environmental These materials are either waste or assets. If they are operating standards and public health standards of the classified as waste, it will cost us billions of pounds of nuclear industry. There is no issue to answer, and those public money to treat, store and dispose of them. If, who persist in maligning the industry and spreading however, they are classified as assets, which they undeniably malicious and false rumours do not only themselves but are, their value as component materials to service the my community and this industry, which is so important growing international demand for MOX fuel will be to the country, a huge disservice, so I am grateful to the enormous and they will be worth tens of billons of hon. Gentleman for that intervention. pounds to the British taxpayer and the nation. I was talking about the need for MOX 2 and building As the Minister is aware, there is real interest from the case for it. As well as needing it to rebalance the certain parties in developing a new MOX fuel British economy and the local economy in west Cumbria, manufacturing plant at Sellafield, and that should be we need it to produce the fuel that we need to help pursued in the national interest. Using plutonium and power CO2-free electricity generation through nuclear uranium oxides in that way would certainly change the in the future. We need it to secure our national energy nature of the radioactive waste inventory that will eventually supplies better. We need it to expedite better and more be placed in a deep geological facility somewhere in this quickly the creation of a geological disposal facility. country, perhaps in my constituency. That decision will West Cumbria needs it, the country needs it, and my be entirely in the hands of local people, not politicians, constituents deserve nothing less. but the status and use of the plutonium and uranium Given the strength of the case, the overwhelming oxides will inevitably have an effect on the process of need and the ready ability of industry to develop such a voluntarism for the deep geological facility and on facility, all that is now missing is an affirmative decision public attitudes as we go forward. The two are linked in from Government and a rapid response to the plutonium the popular local consciousness, and so they should be. consultation paper. The longer that takes, the harder it In addition, the cost of disposing of those materials will be to deliver. The Minister understands haste. After will easily outstrip the costs of a new MOX facility, some impassioned discussions, he accepted the logic even before the additional benefits are considered, but and brought forward the operational date of a future the fundamental question is why we need MOX 2. We geological disposal facility from 2040 to 2029, and that need it to strengthen the industrial base that facilitates is absolutely to his credit. the nuclear fuel cycle in this country and provides us Speeding up this process is important—and the process with the single best chance we have not only of meeting of voluntarism is another debate entirely, which is also our nuclear non-proliferation objectives but helping within the hands of Government, or perhaps, more other countries, particularly the United States, to meet particularly, in the dead hands of the Treasury. We now theirs, too. We need it to help rebalance the British need a quick decision from Government on the plutonium economy. An early intention from Government to proceed consultation. Industry, investors and the supply chain with MOX 2 would galvanise the local and national all require some clarity and certainty, as does my local supply chain surrounding new build in west Cumbria work force and local community. If the Government and send out precisely the right investment signals at a respond positively to the plutonium consultation as I time of real anxiety. am asking them to do tonight, I would hope—this is an essential point—that a timetable would accompany such Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the hon. a decision, whereby the development of a new MOX Gentleman, like many in this House—the majority, I plant could be prosecuted more quickly and the programme hope—feel that Sellafield is a significant player in the delivered effectively, on time and to budget in a way that future energy supply for this country? Following on would be entirely predictable for us all to see. from the urgent question earlier, does he also feel that the issues of health and of safeguarding health and The need for urgency is real—a point that I consistently security for the population around there are also paramount, made to the last Government as I do to the present and guaranteed by Government? Government. If the Minister can provide the required urgency my community can provide the necessary Mr Reed: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his partnership, and collectively we can solve some of the intervention. Sadly, I missed the urgent question earlier, most pressing public policy issues facing our country. as I could have spoken for hours about the misconceptions, lies and myths about not only Sellafield but the nuclear 10.45 pm industry. Sellafield is without doubt one of the most important industrial facilities in this country. There is The Minister of State, Department of Energy and nothing like it. In fact, it is one of the most important Climate Change (Charles Hendry): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, industrial facilities anywhere in the developed world. It for granting this debate. I congratulate the hon. Member no longer produces fuel, although we hope to see a site for Copeland (Mr Reed) on securing it and thank him adjacent to Sellafield producing fuel with at least two for doing so. The matter is timely and important, not new nuclear reactors in the very near future. just to his constituency but to our national interest 311 Nuclear Power Production 11 OCTOBER 2011 Nuclear Power Production 312 (Sellafield) (Sellafield) more generally. I am delighted to see on the Front Bench In the coming months the Government will look to and to congratulate the right hon. Member for Don finalise the framework governing the financing of Valley (Caroline Flint) and the hon. Member for Rutherglen decommissioning and waste management for new nuclear and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) on their appointments power stations. That will ensure that operators make to the important positions in the shadow team. secure financial provision from the outset in line with I am grateful for the chance to clarify the Government’s the Government’s policy that there should be no subsidy position on the future of the nuclear industry in Sellafield, for new nuclear. We have done all that in the wake of the although I cannot give the hon. Member for Copeland tragic circumstances at the Fukushima nuclear power all of the answers that he seeks today. I begin by plant in Japan. We needed to understand the facts acknowledging the vital contribution that the nuclear before making any decisions. That is why my right hon. industry makes to the economic prosperity of west Friend the Secretary of State asked the chief nuclear Cumbria, and also the important contribution that the inspector, Dr Mike Weightman, to look at what Fukushima people of Copeland have made and continue to make to means for nuclear energy in Britain and what lessons Britain’s nuclear heritage. West Cumbria is at the heart can be learned. of the UK’s nuclear industry and has been since the The UK is most certainly open for business in the early days in the 1950s. There is an enormous wealth of nuclear sector. Investors know that EDF Energy will nuclear expertise and knowledge, and we want to maintain begin preliminary works at Hinkley Point soon and is and use that for the future. The future is promising preparing its planning application as we speak to put to for west Cumbria as a nuclear community. There are the Infrastructure Planning Commission this autumn. I plans for new nuclear to play a part, local authorities am also encouraged by the prospects for new nuclear in are expressing an interest in hosting a geological west Cumbria. The NuGeneration consortium has set disposal facility, and decommissioning commitments out plans to build up to 3.6 GW of new nuclear capacity are ongoing. at Sellafield. We hope that construction will begin in I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government 2015, with commercial operation of a new nuclear are fully focused on working with west Cumbria to power station expected by 2023. Both Iberdrola and deliver these commitments, as we are in ensuring that GDF SUEZ remain confident about new nuclear in new nuclear has a role to play in the UK’s future energy west Cumbria and have increased their stakes in the mix. The hon. Gentleman was kind and generous in his project. They see no reason why the decision by Scottish comments and we agree on much, but I hope that he and Southern Energy to end its involvement with NuGen will understand that I was a little disappointed by some should impact on their plans or timetable. of his recent media comments about the pace of movement Sellafield is central to the west Cumbrian economy. and progress in these areas. I hope that in the light of The Sellafield site has been around for over half a century the terrible events in Fukushima some months ago he and has brought many new opportunities to the area. will have welcomed the ongoing commitment that the There are opportunities because we are pushing forward British Government have shown to nuclear in comparison scientific frontiers in relation to clean-up and the with many other Governments elsewhere. management of radioactive waste. I congratulate west The UK has everything to gain from becoming the Cumbria sincerely on taking the lead in decommissioning No. 1 destination to invest in new nuclear. Nuclear is one of the world’s largest and most complex facilities. I the cheapest low-carbon source of electricity around, so am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact it keeps the bills down and the lights on. The Government that the Government have allocated extra resources to have remained committed in their efforts to ensure that that vital work. As I have mentioned, new nuclear the conditions are right for investment in new nuclear in power is once again on the agenda and west Cumbria is the UK. We are very pleased to build on the legacy that at the forefront of this, with land earmarked for we received in this area from Lord Hutton when he was development next to the Sellafield site. That will potentially Secretary of State. provide 5,000 construction jobs at peak and 1,000 long-term operating jobs. We join him in wanting to see the We have made significant progress in the 18 months economic success for the community he represents. we have been in power to ensure that the conditions for investment are right. Last October, the Secretary of Radioactive waste is of course always an issue of State made his decision that two nuclear reactor designs great importance when talking about the future of the should be justified, which was approved by the House nuclear industry. West Cumbria has also expressed an by a large majority of 520 votes to 27—one of the interest in the process of geological disposal of radioactive largest majorities that we have seen on any issue. In July waste. We are working in partnership to explore what we designated the national policy statements for energy that would involve. Should west Cumbria decide to infrastructure, including a list of suitable sites for nuclear participate in the next stages of the process—I emphasise power stations. Those had been delayed as a result of that, in relation to this matter, we strongly believe in the amendments to emissions in the earlier drafts, but I voluntarist principle—it would show a real commitment know that the hon. Gentleman was pleased that Sellafield to finding a long-term solution for nuclear waste disposal. was one of the sites included in that list. We have also The community is to be applauded for having the vision created the Office for Nuclear Regulation, and we plan to find out more about the reality of that process and to bring forward legislation to create a new independent for fully considering all the implications, including the statutory body as soon as we can. The regulators are potential economic benefits. I am grateful to the hon. continuing to work with the industry to take forward Gentleman for welcoming the fact that we have sought the generic design assessment process for new reactors. to speed up the process by a decade. They have published agreed resolution plans for the The geological disposal facility would be a multi-billion issues that need to be resolved, and they will also need pound engineering development on an enormous scale to factor Dr Weightman’s report into their final assessment. which will employ an average of over 500 people for 313 Nuclear Power Production 11 OCTOBER 2011 Nuclear Power Production 314 (Sellafield) (Sellafield) [Charles Hendry] aware, the UK also stores significant quantities of overseas- owned plutonium, so pursuing a reuse-as-MOX option perhaps a century to come. Apart from the income for UK plutonium could offer an opportunity for the generated, we expect that there will also be spin-off overseas owners of plutonium currently stored in the benefits through associated engineering and supply chain UK to have their plutonium managed in the same way. developments and potentially further additional benefits. Therefore, notwithstanding the long-term decommissioning Mr Reed: The Minister is making a series of important of Sellafield that will see billions of pounds spent on and well thought-through points, which I welcome. On cleaning up the site over the next 100 years, there are overseas materials and foreign waste, could we at some potentially major opportunities available to west Cumbria point in the very near future sit down with concerned through the nuclear sector. parties to undertake a scoping exercise with regard to I now turn to the options for plutonium and the what happens to the waste currently stored in my implications for future production of mixed oxide fuel constituency which, in the event of Scottish independence, at Sellafield. The future of MOX production at Sellafield would no longer be British waste? can be described primarily by two recent events. The first was the publication in February of the Government’s Charles Hendry: That departs just a little from the consultation on the long-term management of the UK’s subject of the debate, and, although the hon. Gentleman plutonium—we have the largest stockpile of plutonium is determined as I am to see off that threat, we are in the world. The second was the Nuclear Decommissioning dealing with an issue that is not going to arise. However, Authority’s announcement in August that it was to in the event of separation there would clearly be implications close the existing Sellafield MOX plant. Although both for a settlement and they would need to be addressed events are to an extent linked, it must be remembered and resolved. It is premature, however, to sit down and that the Sellafield MOX plant was built to deal with deal with those issues at this stage. overseas-owned plutonium recovered through reprocessing Were we to proceed down the path of a reuse, any and was never intended to deal with the UK’s plutonium. new MOX plant would need to learn from the lessons of A decision to close the SMP was taken by the NDA the past and take into account the experience from following a changed commercial risk profile arising overseas. Additionally we anticipate that, for security from potential delays after the earthquake in Japan and reasons and to minimise the transportation of plutonium, subsequent events. any new MOX facilities would be located as close to the plutonium as possible and most likely in west Cumbria, To ensure that the UK taxpayer did not carry a future which I believe many of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents financial burden from the SMP, the NDA concluded would actively welcome. Plutonium management is a that the only reasonable course of action was to close high-profile issue that requires appropriate consideration, the facility at the earliest practical opportunity. It was and it is not a decision that can be taken quickly. The apparent that the SMP was never going to provide a Government are in the process of clearing our response solution for the large volumes of UK plutonium, which through Cabinet, and we anticipate being in a position would need to be managed in new facilities. I am very to publish our response shortly. grateful for the realistic approach that the hon. Gentleman has taken on that. I, like the Prime Minister, have made it clear that nuclear should remain part of the future energy mix, In our consultation on plutonium management we alongside other technologies such as renewable and set out three high-level options for dealing with plutonium: carbon capture and storage, provided that there is no continued storage; immobilisation followed by disposal public subsidy for nuclear, and the Weightman report, as a waste; and reuse of the plutonium in the form of published today, provides no grounds to question our MOX fuel. The consultation set out at a high level the approach that nuclear should be part of the energy mix advantages and disadvantages of each option, but the in future, as it is today. The next step on plutonium Government’s preliminary view was that the best prospect management is for the Government to publish their of implementing a successful solution lay with the response to the consultation paper, and, as I have just option of reusing MOX as a fuel and, therefore, with said, we are in the process of clearing our response seeing its value rather than simply its cost, as the hon. through Cabinet and anticipate being in a position to Gentleman rightly called for us to do. make an announcement shortly. That option was the more technically mature, given We all recognise that nuclear power plays a significant that MOX fuel had been successfully fabricated and role in the UK’s electricity supply, but that nuclear also used in reactors in Europe, and given that by comparison results in radioactive waste. West Cumbria has expressed no equally mature immobilisation technology was readily interest in the geological disposal of radioactive waste, employable. Nevertheless, we recognised that there were and we are working in partnership to explore what that still risks with the reuse-as-MOX option, particularly would involve. I pay tribute to the community as a given the poor performance of the Sellafield MOX whole, to the hon. Gentleman as their Member of plant. The poor performance put limitations on throughput, Parliament and to the local authorities for having the which meant that, even if we wanted to use it, the vision to find out more about the process and to work Sellafield MOX plant would never be able to deal with very closely with us to see how we can take it forward. all the UK’s plutonium. Question put and agreed to. For that reason, we acknowledged that to implement a reuse solution the Government would need to procure 10.58 pm a new MOX plant, but as the hon. Gentleman is well House adjourned. 1WH 11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 2WH

on those five issues in relation to gangs and why young Westminster Hall people in constituencies such as mine are being seduced into gang membership. Constituencies such as mine and that of my hon. Tuesday 11 October 2011 Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) are often described as inner-city constituencies, although I have never liked the phrase [MR MARTIN CATON in the Chair] because it suggests that it is acceptable to have an inner city when I would like to live in just one city. Some crimes are associated with seats such as ours, but the Gangs profile of youth violence throughout London has changed. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting The face of gang membership is diverse, and seems to be now adjourned.—(Miss Smith.) be associated as much with the inner city as with suburban London. Parochialism is manifest in gangs, and I constantly find it peculiar to see the turf wars that 9.30 am go on between one gang in the N17 and N15 postcode Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I am grateful and another in the N22 postcode in Wood Green. for the opportunity to raise this important issue in the Chamber this morning, and I am grateful to my good Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) and hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), (Lab): Many incidents of gun and knife crime relate to who had the original idea for this debate, and brings conflicts between Tottenham-based gangs and Hackney- such issues to the House regularly. You will recognise, based gangs criss-crossing the border between the two Mr Caton, that in August we saw some awful scenes of boroughs. social unrest in this country that we had not seen for a considerable time. Following those riots, much has been Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In said about gangs in our society. days gone by, she and I have had to discuss attending As the MP for Tottenham, it is important to say that funerals and memorial services for gang victims because although I recognise that gang members were certainly of the sensitivities between those on one side of a street caught up in the violence, the evidence made available and those on the other side. In the Stamford Hill part of to me by local police, the arrest sheets, and the issues my hon. Friend’s constituency a wonderful young man, arising from the riots suggest that it would be wrong to Godwin Lawson, who was an aspiring footballer, lost infer that those riots were orchestrated by gangs, or at his life when he was brutally stabbed in the street one least that gangs were central to them. The issues are evening. His family have been so honourable in the complex and many, and include policing. The riots tragedy that befell them. I remember walking with my involved not just people who do not have a stake in hon. Friend in Stamford Hill where one side of the society, but those who got swept up in the social unrest street was in her constituency, and the other was in and found themselves doing unimaginable things. mine. It seems that poor Godwin had simply strayed We have an opportunity this morning to reflect on into a different patch, and died as a consequence. My gangs and gang membership, how we are tackling the hon. Friend has great experience of that, and we have problem, the other crime and violence issues relating to seen hyper-parochialism develop throughout London. gangs, and some of the underlying causes. The starting Hon. Members in the Chamber will have similar point is that gangs are not new. We probably all recall experience of the obsession with postcodes. Many young reading “Great Expectations” at school, and recognise people are worried that when they leave school, particularly that gangs are not a new phenomenon in British cultural secondary school, at 3 or 4 o’clock in the afternoon or life. Indeed, in other periods of hardship, young men in travel on the bus to and from school they may cross particular have clustered together and caused mayhem postcodes and go into other areas. Parents who attend and havoc for those around them. our surgeries say, “I don’t want my daughter or son to A particular phenomenon has developed in London, go to that school. I have to get to work, so they go to and has accelerated over the last decade. Associated school on their own, and I am worried. They say that with the gang profile are members who are increasingly there are gang members on that bus, and that because younger and often teenagers, and a growth in knife they come from the wrong postcode there will be problems.” crime. The figures for knife crime rose last year, as did The local authority is co-ordinating and staggering those for violent crime among young people, and those school exit times to try to avoid such problems, but of us who represent London seats suspect that we are there are areas of London where young people who seeing a rise in knife crime as we speak. Drug-related come from different postcodes meet—as one would activity is also associated with gangs. expect—and things flare up. Gang activity is at the The issue is of tremendous concern. I am aware centre of that. of four knife crime victims in the London borough of Over the past few years there have been gains in Haringey in the last two weeks alone. During the summer, education, particularly secondary education, but all one gang member was stabbed twice on two separate London boroughs have seen an increase in the number occasions in as many months. That is the toxic and of children in care following the cases of baby P and worrying nature of the issue. When trying to understand Victoria Climbié. When I visit pupil referral units and the problem in the context of what success looks like for look at the issues faced by children in care, I see a young people in a constituency such as mine, I usually pattern that still prevails for young people in such boil it down to five issues: education, employment, circumstances. I am concerned that pupil referral units community, aspiration and parenting. I want to touch and help for children out of school remain, to some 3WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 4WH

[Mr Lammy] Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend is exactly right. That brings me to the other ingredients of the debate—aspiration extent, a Cinderella service. Frankly, it should be a and community. It is clear that too many young people Rolls-Royce service if we are to support young people are losing all contact not only with work, but with what when they are at their most fragile, and prevent them I call character-building activities, such that they can from falling into trouble during those initial stages. engage in that work. We live in hyper-materialistic, I have been clear that the rioting that we saw across consumer-driven times. That affects us all, but I believe London was of a complex nature. One important issue, that it can affect the poorest most harshly. Middle-class however, is unemployment, and it falls to national families can introduce all sorts of things into the home, Government to do something about that. The such as scouts, football or ballet classes, which will Northumberland Park ward of my constituency has ameliorate some of the other possibilities in their children’s Tottenham Hotspur football club at its centre, but it is lives. That is not the case for many of my constituents, also the ward with the highest levels of unemployment and youth services in the London borough of Haringey in London, with 20% of young people claiming jobseeker’s have been cut by 75%. allowance. In some communities—I think of the Somali For a parent—I say parent, because it is often a mum community and parts of the black community—that struggling on her own—it is a challenge to create aspiration figure is double, and such unemployment stretches out and compete with the drug dealer on the other side of for months and months. I am from Tottenham which, I the street who offers a quick way to get easy money, remind the House, saw similar levels of unemployment particularly while she is trying to hold down a job. during previous recessions in the 1980s. It is a tragedy Often, it is not even one job, but two, because we all that the parents who were unemployed then now have know that here in London it is virtually impossible for a children who are unemployed—whole families who have constituent such as that single mum to earn a living not seen employment. wage with just one job. That returns us to the issue of The issue is simple. As my mother used to say, “Idle how to be there for our young people and what it means hands make the devil’s work.” We need a firm grip on to be family in London: it is about not only absentee growth in our economy, and we must look at where jobs fathers who do not take their responsibilities seriously— are and how we can get them to those families and something I have raised many times—but how hard life young people. Most of my constituents who were in is for those who want to take their responsibilities employment often worked in the public sector—it has seriously. always been that way in the borough of Tottenham—but I think of a family who were challenged in court this many of those jobs have been cut. Those employed in summer because their 15-year-old daughter was caught the private sector often work in retail and the service looting. The parents did not turn up to court, and the economy but, as the House will have seen from the judge said, “Where are the parents and what are they up latest figures, that sector is shrinking and no one is to? This is typical.” I know the parents; indeed, the anticipating a boom Christmas sale period. It is hard family have been known to me for many years. Dad is a for those twenty-somethings to get a foothold in minicab driver, and as a consequence works irregular employment and the economy. We have seen a growth hours to make ends meet. Mum has a small business. in apprenticeships, but it is not clear that we have seen They are churchgoers. They are struggling with a large the scale of growth that is necessary, particularly in family and doing the best that they can, but they are a London and constituencies such as mine. classic family working all hours just to make ends meet Despite all that we may learn from American senior and are not able to be entirely on top of everything that police officers, unless they come with a growth strategy their young people are doing because of what is required in their back pocket it will be pretty hard for my to make a living wage in the London economy. constituents to believe that staying off the street and in Hon. Members know me well enough to know that it meaningful employment is a genuine prospect. One can would be very unusual for me to make excuses for knock on any door in the Northumberland Park ward young people who, in the end, have moral choices and and what people say is simple: why are there so many choose to pick up a knife and use it, or choose to deal young people on the streets with apparently nothing to crack cocaine. However, our economy is important. do? That is how people get caught up in gangs. As I That is why I raise the issue of unemployment. The have said, this is not a new subject; Dickens wrote about culture that surrounds our young people is important. it—the Artful Dodger was effectively in a gang. A bit of That is why I raise the issue of hyper-materialism and petty theft here and a bit of small drug running there; how quickly and easily a young boy can get caught up that is how people get caught up in criminality, and in it. Before we know it, he is off with a gang, even before they know it they are carrying a knife for protection though he has parents who are doing their best. or, if really serious, a gun. That is the pattern we see. In the end, we are centred on how we deal with the Ms Abbott: I agree with everything my right hon. issue. There are innovations that I want to see in the Friend has said about employment, but one aspect of system. I congratulate the London borough of Waltham the way that some young people are caught up in gang Forest—no doubt my good and hon. Friend the Member culture means that if they were offered a decent job for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) will draw on this in her tomorrow they would not take it, because they have contribution—on the development of the Connect model. grown accustomed to easy money and an easy life, and The measures to which I am referring involve getting do not know what it means to get up and go to work at around these young people in a co-ordinated way, 8 o’clock in the morning, as our parents did. I do not intelligence sharing across the different stakeholders—the want to take away from what he has said, but how to local authority, the health authority, the police, social wean a generation away from a semi-criminalised subculture services, youth services and others—intervening in chaotic and into the world of work is a complex question. families and saying to young people who we know are 5WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 6WH caught up in crime, violent crime and gang membership, is essential that the various professionals have the ability “We will give you a chance if you take the services to talk to one another and therefore know what is available to you. We won’t lock you up. If you take that happening and or can predict what will happen, but chance, we’ll help you to get out of the gang, but if you that is not happening across London. don’t take that chance, we will be very heavy-handed The Minister needs to examine that issue and needs through the arm of the law.” I am talking about giving to press the Mayor of London on it. There has been a them that possibility and, as a consequence, seeing the lot of rhetoric and talk, but not a lot of action. The numbers fall from the dire and very concerning level in Mayor ran for office and won the election on the basis Waltham Forest of just a couple of years ago. that he would reduce knife crime, so all of us must be In Haringey, we look forward to applying the Connect very concerned that that is not happening. If anything, model to how we begin to deal with gangs and gang the problem has accelerated and got worse. Co-ordinated membership in our borough, but we are doing so against activity is essential. I am not saying that all this can be a backdrop of a 50% cut in our youth offending service. driven from the top, but it is possible to press for best I recognise that we are living in times of austerity. I do practice, understand what is happening and see different not want to rehearse the debate in the House about cuts, professionals speaking to one another about those families cutting too quickly and all the rest of it, but I do want and young people. That is not happening across London; to say that some services need to be immune to some of it needs to happen, and much more purposefully. I hope what is happening and the youth offending service must that the Minister will say something about the youth be one of them. offending services and teams that have been cut, and about what co-ordinated activity is planned across and Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Some of the beyond boroughs London-wide. networks that are available and could be used in inner-city and urban areas throughout the UK are, of course, It is also clear to me that we are not sharing best school networks. That is not a cheaper option, but one practice and intelligence across the country, because I that should certainly be resourced. I am thinking of have been to other cities that are beginning to struggle school breakfast clubs and post-school clubs, where with gang crime in their communities and they feel young people are encouraged to stay on and become behind the curve in relation to some of the things that involved in activities that are more positive than some we have become familiar with in London. of the things to which the right hon. Gentleman has alluded. Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): It is important to put it on the record that there Mr Lammy: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. have been improvements in some statistics for some If a young person lives on the 15th floor of a tower areas of serious crime, whether knife crime or gun block on one of my local estates, an after-school club is crime, in recent years, although I accept that there is a vital for their mother in seeking employment—if she is tendency now to move in the wrong direction. We all tempted to seek employment, who will take care of her know that just to bandy around statistics is not a child when school finishes? A breakfast club is essential sensible route forward. I very much take on board the if she has a cleaning job and Dad drives a minicab. In idea that there needs to be far more co-ordination those circumstances, the young person getting to school within London. The right hon. Gentleman referred to early and getting a good breakfast is not an add-on; it is his own local authority perhaps being behind the curve essential, but it is not clear that that is happening. compared with the neighbouring authority of Waltham Let us examine the figures. Last year, knife crime rose Forest, which has put in place the Connect programme. by 8% in London. In addition, 43% of 11 to 13-year-olds It is important that, rather than getting into a sterile and 50% of 14 to 16-year-olds said that knife crime and debate on statistics, which I accept happens on all sides street violence were their No. 1 issue. Against that in political discourse in London, we acknowledge that backdrop, we needed a youth offending service. We the Mayor and his predecessor have recognised the needed people to get to these young people early and importance of dealing with gang crime and, in particular, work with them on intervention, prevention and persuasion. the terrible statistics for knife and gun crime. Whether The service was developing, not mature, and was, in a there is a slight reduction or not, any deaths that take sense, fairly new. I am alarmed that in the London place because of knife or gun crime are terrible tragedies, borough of Haringey the budget has been cut by 50%. as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out. In addition, some essential co-ordinated activity is not going on in a statutory way. Members of the voluntary Mr Lammy: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for sector often get together and debate these things, but it that intervention. The point I am making is that, two is not clear that there is any statutory obligation at all years ago, the assistant borough commander, the head for the various services to be sat around a table, of the youth service and her representatives, and co-ordinating activities, profiling these young people representatives of social services, health services and and sharing intelligence. schools were sat around the table—routinely, every Beyond the local authority, the activity that I have month—discussing the group of young people who described is not happening London-wide. The border were getting caught up in this situation, and that funds between Haringey and Hackney is porous, and the were coming through to support that activity. I am border between Haringey and Waltham Forest is porous. afraid that they told me last week that that has ended. I am talking about co-ordinating intelligence. What is They are engaged—meeting voluntarily, every six weeks— happening with these families? Which older brother because they are so concerned, but there is no statutory went to prison last week? Which father found himself in framework for that activity, and neither is there the trouble? Did domestic violence take place last week? It support and diversion activity that needs to happen. 7WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 8WH

[Mr Lammy] The situation has changed completely and we have a decision to make: are we going to see gangs and that The hon. Gentleman will appreciate from his long terrible youth violence as a permanent phenomenon of experience that what those young people need is diversionary our economy and country, as in parts of downtown activity and intervention. That requires resources. If he America? We are on a cusp. We can either get over the speaks to colleagues in Waltham Forest—my hon. Friend problem with proper, co-ordinated quality effort, or I the Member for Walthamstow might say something am afraid that it will be a permanent phenomenon of about this—he will hear that they are concerned about our modern economy. resources. I think that this is one area in which we can make the plea for resources, because the consequences Several hon. Members rose— of under-resourcing will cost us so much more. The co-ordination and resources that must rightly follow, so Martin Caton (in the Chair): Order. We have just 36 that those professionals can do their job, are essential. minutes before the winding-up speeches need to start, and at least five Members have indicated that they wish to speak. If Members bear that arithmetic in mind, we Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): The will be able to get everybody in. right hon. Gentleman is clearly drawing on his extensive experience. To return to the issue of youth offending, is he calling for ring-fenced funding from central Government 10.5 am to go to local authorities, or does he believe that local authorities themselves have a duty to prioritise youth Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) offending funding within their budgets? (Con): I congratulate the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) on his speech. I will try to be brief. He is right to identify that the riots were, in essence, an Mr Lammy: I am not calling for prescription; it is not example of opportunistic, rather than systematic, gang- for me to prescribe how this should be done. That must related criminality. None the less, it is important that we be a matter for the Government. What I am saying is discuss gangs, not least because we will have an opportunity that this is a priority and a real issue in London. Youth in 48 hours to discuss, in this same Chamber, the riots in services are being cut and reduced across London. It is greater detail. easy to make the point that the London borough of I respect the right hon. Gentleman’s contribution. Haringey, for example, should prioritise youth services None of the issues is open to a simplistic analysis or at a time when it has to cut £40 million in year from its easy solution. It is perhaps the nature of the 24/7 media budget. I am worried, however, that I will be here with world in which we live that that expectation always colleagues next year and that the figures will have gone exists. In the immediate aftermath of the riots, there in the wrong direction, because we will have been unable was a sense that we should have some quick and easy to prioritise the service. solutions, but I think that the lesson is that, much as I As I said at the beginning of my speech, although I accept his call to arms and passionate push for urgency, do not recognise a picture that suggests that gangs were we also have to be patient. This needs systematic work behind this summer’s rioting and social unrest, it is within our communities to try to make sure that we clear that gang members were part of it. I have spoken break down the culture of violence and criminality, as to the manager of JD Sports in Tottenham retail centre well as the entirety of gang culture. and to the manager of Comet. I have also looked at I am very much a sound money man. I have been a some of the video and pictures of complete lawlessness, great believer in getting our deficit down and have tried which ran for more than five or six hours—there were in my own constituency, almost uniformly, not to make more young people in that shop that night, looting and the case for more money to be pushed in a particular robbing, than during the day—and I do not want my direction. I am, however, aware of gang culture in my constituents to get accustomed to such things, because own constituency and in the past few days I have that would be dangerous for any society—those events written to the Home Secretary to make the case for have to be a one-off. Those charged with intervening in, moneys that would otherwise be taken away from dispersing and engaging with often chaotic families, as Westminster city council to be put in its direction. There well as those who co-ordinate pupil referral units and is a bigger issue of gang culture in the constituency of ensure that young people in care are properly provided the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck). for, who work with families, who think about a living The terrible shooting that took place on the Mozart wage and about our economy, and who ask hard questions estate only a week ago was a classic example of that. about where the jobs are in a constituency such as In my constituency, the Churchill Gardens estate is Tottenham, recognise that this is important. not too far from where we sit this morning and there Although I am pleased that the Government have is increasingly great concern that it has almost a critical said that they want to prioritise the issue, as a Back mass of would-be gang culture that has the potential to Bencher I want to scrutinise how that is done. We cause great blight to the locality. A lot of it is driven by should, of course, speak to those from across the pond the postcode war, with gangs from north and south of who have experience in this area, but I have now been the river—the Churchill Gardens estate looks out towards the MP for Tottenham for 12 years and, when I began, Battersea and the south of London. There is real concern knife crime and gangs were certainly not a major that we need to put some resource into prevention phenomenon of the capital city. In those days, the rather than cure. caricature was of yardie gangs—I am sure my hon. I accept what the hon. Member for Hackney North Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) said earlier. One of Newington will recall reading about them in the papers. the greatest difficulties is that the lifestyle has almost 9WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 10WH become chaotic and that it is difficult to wean people Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) on off. I also noticed that she raised her eyebrows when the initiating it. I know that my right hon. Friend the right hon. Member for Tottenham suggested that gang Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) would culture was not an issue in 2000 when he became an MP. also like to take part, but she cannot be here today. It has been a problem, although I think that there is Lewisham is by and large a safe place to live. People now a critical mass in parts of London that used to feel generally get on with one another. Children play in our unaffected by it. One of the interesting things about the parks, and I shall walk home from the station tonight riots was how previously quiet suburbs, such as Clapham without fear. I mention that because my experience of and Enfield, which were perhaps regarded as leafy Lewisham is probably different from that of some suburbs not too far away from some of the gangland of my younger constituents, who have seen the lives of areas of south London, Edmonton or Walthamstow, friends and family devastated by serious youth violence. suddenly became subject to some real problems. That is My perception of Lewisham is probably different from something that we have to bear firmly in mind. that of local parents who are worried about the safety As I have said, this will require patient, time-consuming of their children. In the past four years, there have been activity. The St Andrew’s club, of which I am proud, as 67 incidents of known gang-related crime in the borough, the local Member of Parliament, to be president, is even four of which resulted in someone dying. In the same closer to us than the Churchill Gardens estate; it is period, there were 673 instances of gun and knife crime, within 500 yards of Parliament. It was the oldest boys’ and 17 people were killed. I do not quote those figures club and is now a boys and girls’ club. A phenomenal to sensationalise; I do it so that everyone will be clear amount of resource was put in to ensure that there were about the scale of the problem. sports clubs and teams. There are also opportunities for In the past few months, since the riots, gangs seem to dance and music lessons. be back on the Government’s agenda. Whether the The club desperately requires funding. The local authority subject is a cross-departmental taskforce to look at is not able to give it the funds it has had in recent years. ways to deal with gang culture, or extensions to gang We have tried to build up a trust, so that relatively injunctions, Ministers want to talk about gangs. It is all wealthy people living nearby are able to put in money. It very well to be interested in gangs now, but with the is helpful—not so much in keeping people off the exception of Brooke Kinsella’s report last year and the streets, although that is one distinct element of it—and announcement in February of some ring-fenced funding its catchment area goes well beyond the immediate to tackle gang, gun and knife crime, the Government vicinity of Westminster. The clubs that it puts in place have been dangerously slow off the mark in addressing go south of the river. the challenges posed by gangs and gang violence. That opportunity for distraction, provided by clubs Last September, in an Opposition-day debate, I urged in particular, is, as the right hon. Member for Tottenham the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice to look at said, something that we middle-class parents can often ways of tackling material that appears on the internet provide for our children almost as a matter of course, glorifying gang membership and the carrying of knives. without recognising that for many others costs and Video after video, filmed in a car park in Catford in the more general factors make the opportunity much more heart of my constituency, is put on YouTube. They are limited. I hope that in such areas we can try to wean often viewed as many as 16,000 times. Young men, or people off gang culture, although it is extremely difficult. perhaps I should say boys, brandish knives in front of Even if there were a direct economic choice between a the camera as if they were cigarettes. I wrote to the job and the attraction of cheap and easy money, compatible Minister two days after the debate, providing him with with a chaotic lifestyle, it would be difficult to wean an example of the footage and asking what action the many long-standing gang members away. Aspiration is Home Office would take. In November I wrote again, an issue: paucity of aspiration and of expectation. chasing a reply. In January I spoke to him after he I want to finish with one other observation. I do not appeared before the Select Committee on Communities want to play down the importance of the issues. I have a and Local Government, but to date I have not had any feeling that, although we have not had to worry about response to my inquiries; so when the Government talk gang culture in my constituency, we may go beyond the tough on gangs and want to find someone and something critical mass in a year or two, if we do not nip things in to blame for the riots, I cannot help but wonder why the bud today. However, we must also recognise there they did not do more to address the sort of problems are many unsung, relatively quiet young men and women that many of us were bringing to their attention long in our communities, doing a phenomenally good job. before the riots. They work hard and have developed aspirations. Perhaps If I am honest, I do not know what the Government it is self-discipline that has brought that about, rather can do to tackle the problem of online material such as than anything from their family. They are unsung heroes the videos that I have described, but I fear that, if and I hope that they will play their part in improving thousands of young people have viewed that footage their communities in years to come. It is important that and think that it is in some way cool, it would not be at we should not look on young people as simply problematic. all surprising if some of them also got caught up in We can be proud of them, while we do our level best to thinking that some of the agitators in the riots were tackle the problems addressed in the debate. pretty cool, too.

10.11 am Mr Mark Field: The hon. Lady complains that the Government and perhaps the current Mayor of London Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I congratulate have not produced the goods, as she would have liked, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham but it is only fair to mention that, in the past few years, (Mr Lammy) on opening the debate, and my hon. 10,000 knives and guns have been taken off the street, in 11WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 12WH

[Mr Mark Field] other parts of a young person’s life. We need to ensure that the one-to-one mentoring and encouragement that a widespread amnesty, and we have also ensured that a young person in a pupil referral unit might need are there are an additional 1 million police patrols per year available, and can be funded. We need to give confidential on the streets of London. It is also fair to say that that support to young people who present themselves at an builds on what happened under Mayor Livingstone, but A and E department with a stab wound, so that they the trajectory has been in that direction: we have continued can find a way out of some of the problems. As I have some of the important work done in our capital city in said before, we need to work with those who are in the past decade. prison to give them a fulfilling life to get away from gangs on their release. Heidi Alexander: The hon. Gentleman acknowledged When I spoke to staff at XLP yesterday, I asked them in his speech that in recent years there has also been an what the Government should do to tackle the problem upward trajectory. He urged patience, and I am not sure of gangs. They were clear in their response: jobs, a that patience is possible in this situation, because young better balance between enforcement and engagement, people are being killed and maimed on our streets. We and funding of initiatives that have been proven to need to tackle the situation urgently. work. XLP gets £10,000 a year from the Home Office. It I have spoken about my frustration in trying to get has a track record in delivery, going into schools and the Government to examine the big issues, and I urge doing the things that I have talked about. It is changing the Minister to update us on the conversations that he young people’s lives; it is probably saving their lives. has had with companies such as YouTube about how, I say this to the Government: take the millions of when the police know such videos are out there, they pounds that they plan to spend on police and crime may perhaps be enabled to get that material taken commissioners and invest the money in community-led down. projects that are already tackling gang and knife crime. Having spoken about online manifestations of gangs, Young lives are being lost in some of our big cities I want to turn to some of the wider action that is needed because of the violence associated with gangs. That has if we are to deal with a problem that blights the lives of to stop. Talking tough is not going to solve the problem. too many young people in big cities. Yesterday, I visited A proper, thought-out and credible strategy, as my right XLP, a youth work charity based in my constituency. Its hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham said, might founder, Patrick Regan, is the author of “Fighting give us a fighting chance of tackling some of the Chance: Tackling Britain’s Gang Culture”. I urge the problems, and I implore the Minister to set out what Minister and all hon. Members who are present to read the Government are going to do. it. It is a powerful and enlightening contribution to the debate about why young people are involved in gangs, 10.20 am what solutions are needed and, indeed, what solutions Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I work. Anyone who reads the book will realise that there congratulate the right hon. Member for Tottenham is no magic wand to be waved to tackle the problem of (Mr Lammy) on opening the debate in a well informed gang violence. What is clear is the fact that any gang manner, drawing on his constituency experience. He strategy must address all aspects of the problem. We rightly concentrated on what we need to do to stop must seek to understand the reasons behind gang young people from going into gangs. I would like to involvement and, equally, why most kids do not get focus a little on what measures senior police officers involved. Let us be clear: the vast majority of kids, even believe should be in place to tackle gangs in which on some of the most challenging estates, are not involved. young people are involved. The four measures that have To put it simply, if we are to tackle the problem of been highlighted by the officers are: sound mechanisms gangs, we must find a way to get those who are now in for identifying gangs and gang-related problems; gangs out of them; we need to help those who are in the ability to track gangs; tough enforcement; and the prison as a result of being in gangs not to return to ability to signpost gang members out of gangs. gangs when they come out; and we must help those who Regarding sound mechanisms for identifying gangs, are caught up in gang violence to deal with their anger there is clearly a role for safe neighbourhood teams on in different ways. Often, retaliation and reprisals lead to the ground and for grass-root organisations. At a higher an escalation of violence. How do we stop things getting level, we will have the national crime agency, which has worse at that stage? Most importantly, we must prevent to play an important role in identifying gangs, particularly people from getting involved in the first place. when they go from being a gang into organised crime. What should we do? My right hon. Friend the Member On tracking gangs, a number of hon. Members referred for Tottenham is completely right to talk about jobs. I to the ongoing multi-agency work, such as safeguarding have said before that young people in my constituency hubs in London and information-sharing hubs, where stop me in the street and say, “What are you going to do different bodies that have responsibility or have contact to help me get a job?” If young people do not have real with gang members can pool their information to ensure opportunities, we will not reach a situation where they that they are monitoring the young people as effectively do not see involvement in gangs as the easy, quick-win as possible and bringing positive measures to bear on solution. However, we need to do other things, such as them. Clearly, there is a need for that information to be getting youth-led projects into schools when young cross-borough, as the hon. Member for Hackney North people are at the right age, so we can make it clear to and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) highlighted. Gangs them that, if they carry a knife, it could end up injuring cross borough boundaries, so having an information-sharing them. We need to provide young people with accessible hub that is borough-based is not good enough; it needs role models, who are in it for the long haul, giving the to cross borough boundaries to work with neighbouring support and encouragement that may be missing in boroughs. 13WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 14WH

Regarding tough enforcement, there are now gang Although we in the House often talk about gangs as injunctions, although I have some reservations about if they were all the same, gang culture is quite complex. the evidence threshold that will be used for them and For instance, an increasing number of girls are involved about the cost, which senior officers have mentioned. in gangs; there are even girl-only gangs. Some gangs are That may be because we are at an early stage of using more on the classic Kray and Richardson model, which gang injunctions and there is a learning curve that has are relatively organised groups of men in their 20s or to be got through. However, I support the fact that gang older involved in systematic crime. Often, however—this injunctions have the power to compel young people to is one of the big issues in areas such as mine—much undertake certain positive activities, because that is a younger children in their early or mid-teens are involved major plus point and will help with tough enforcement. in gangs, which are entirely chaotic, using firearms On signposting gang members out of gangs, a large because of issues of respect, such as if someone steps range of organisations in the voluntary sector and in on their shoe in a night club. Such gangs are harder to government provides activities. I understand that there deal with and less amenable to control than the more is a database where such information is held, which may stable and relatively sophisticated adult gangs. The police need updating. It includes details of organisations such have told me that adult gang members despair of teenage as Kickz, Cricket for Change and a host of other gangs because they are so chaotic and cause so much effective organisations such as Voyage or Horizons, run uproar and upheaval. by the Met Black Police Association. We need to ensure As my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham that the information is up to date so that, when a (Mr Lammy) said, gangs did not cause the London member is identified, the relevant activities can be signposted riots. Clearly, many gang members were involved in the to them to help them out of their gang environment. riots and were on the streets of London, but the idea I know that, in such debates, it is easy to fire a long that the riots were a consequence of organised gang list of questions at a Minister, which he or she, unfortunately, activity is almost too easy and stops us from looking at will not have time to respond to at the end of the debate, the complexities behind the issue. so I will leave the Minister with just one point, which is about the Cardiff model. The principle behind the My right hon. Friend also mentioned the problem of Cardiff model is that a hospital would communicate postcode gangs, which shows how hyper and how calcified with the local police about where people with gunshot gang culture has become in the past 20 years. I remember or knife wounds were coming from, to ensure that the walking down my road—Middleton road in Dalston, police could bear down on a particular pub or estate Hackney—and a young man buttonholing me and saying, where the problems were being generated. There is some “What are you people going to do so that there are confusion in London at the moment as to whether more facilities for me? Otherwise, there is nothing for hospitals are doing that. I would like the Minister, now, me but crime.” I said, “What do you mean? We have just if possible, or in writing, perhaps to the benefit of all built a brand new swimming pool at the end of Middleton hon. Members, to confirm that all hospitals, in London road in London Fields park.” He said, “You don’t at least, have signed up to the Cardiff model. That understand. The park is in one gang’s territory, and I model has generated a substantial drop in the number live at the other end of the road, in another gang’s of serious injuries; I think the quoted figure is 40%. We territory.” That young man genuinely was not able to want to see that effective model deployed across London cross the boundary to go to the end of the road to use and beyond, so that other parts of the country can the facility. The postcode nature of gangs makes it experience the same drop in serious injuries. difficult to work with young people and provide the leisure facilities and youth clubs that they want. We can pump a lot of money into a club, but a lot of young 10.25 am people will not set foot in it because it is in the wrong postcode. Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this We talk about gangs in an entirely judgmental and important debate. The first thing to say is that gangs are negative way, but we must consider what they offer our not a new problem: many of the issues being debated young people. Unless we understand that, we will not today have been raised in the past. What has become know how to contest the culture. For many young frightening in recent decades, going back to the 1980s, is people, the gangs offer a family, a structure and people that inner-city gangs who once upon a time would have whom they can look up to. In a completely warped and solved their disputes with their fists began to do so with criminal way, the gangs offer guidance on being a man. knives and guns. We must understand that and the breakdown in the There is sometimes an assumption that gang culture, family structure that has happened if we are seriously to knives and guns are all a euphemism for young black engage with the issue of gang culture. Of course we criminality, but let me put it on record that there is not a need to spend money on law enforcement, but we must racial issue with gangs. People are often surprised when understand that the gangs offer many young people I say that the knife crime capital of Britain is neither safety and a quasi-family structure, which they do not Hackney nor Tottenham, but Glasgow, which has had a get anywhere else. knife crime problem since the 1950s. Gangs are about a toxic convergence of collapse of existing economic There is also a huge amount of peer group pressure structures, a hyper-masculine culture, and increasing on young men, particularly on young black men, to join materialism, which we are seeing in the 21st century. I gangs. I live in Hackney and have brought up a son in wanted to nail that because some of the debates that we Hackney. It is very difficult for someone to walk down hear in the media would have us believe that the problem the streets in Hackney if they are not in a gang or do is one for a particular ethnic group. not know what streets to avoid. We cannot underestimate 15WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 16WH

[Ms Diane Abbott] ethnicities from a life of the street and the gangs. We all know that the life of a gang member is often very short. the peer group pressure on perfectly decent young men If these young men could see what awaits them, whether from decent families to get involved in this semi-criminal it is prison or dying in the road in a pool of blood, the activity. immediate attraction of gangs would not be so apparent. The final incentive for being in a gang is economic. It is for us as politicians and as members of the community Someone who does not have a job and has no prospect to offer holistic strategies on the gang culture. of having one will view a little drug dealing, a little drug running and a little this and that as an economic model. 10.35 am I want to talk about education, which is not the Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Thank you, Mr Caton, responsibility of the Minister but relates strongly to the for allowing me three or four minutes to sum up this issue of gangs. By and large, young men who are in matter from the Back Benches. I speak as someone who college doing their AS-levels are not on the streets spent 15 years at the criminal Bar. I was involved in nine involved in gangs. There is a direct relationship between different murder trials and prosecuted far too many educational failure and criminal activity. Years ago, punch-ups in the pub and knife crimes, in criminal Martin Narey, who is now the head of Barnardo’s, said, courts up and down the country. I was also a specialist “On the day you permanently exclude a child from in relation to special educational needs and the special school, you might as well give them a date and time to educational needs and disability tribunal. I advised turn up at prison.” Until we engage with the long-term multiple local authorities on the matter of statements. issue of educational failure, we will not properly deal with the roots of the gang culture, which is something I may represent 1,150 square miles of beautiful that I have worked on for many years. Northumberland countryside, but the east end of Hexham is a complex and difficult area. Sure Start, the Hexham A few weeks ago, I went to my sixth annual awards East Number 28 project run by the Hexham community ceremony for London’s top-achieving black children. partnership and the Hexham East residents association, The right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington and the local police have dramatically turned the area (Tom Brake) was right when he said that for every one around. gang member there are thousands of young people in London who are trying hard, trying to get qualifications I notice that there is nobody here from Scotland, and trying to move forward. It is important that we do which is a great shame. Although I do not denigrate the not see all our young people, particularly those in amazing work that has been done by so many in London, minority ethnic groups, through the prism of gang there is no question that the essence of gangs derives culture, because there is so much more going on; there from Scotland, both in relation to the knife crime that are so many young people who are really trying. was alluded to by the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) and the tremendous Clearly, gangs are a law enforcement issue, and it is success in dealing with the issue. I applaud the work of appropriate that we will hear from the Home Office Karen McCluskey who is pioneering the Community Minister and his shadow, my hon. Friend the Member Initiative to Reduce Violence, which is based on Operation for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). None the less, gangs Ceasefire that was used in Boston. It is a fantastic are complex. They cover issues of family, breakdown of scheme and should be supported. Sadly, because of employment and access to jobs. When I was a child, my illness, I missed the House’s debate on the riots, but the father was a sheet metal worker—he left school at 14 in Prime Minister was right to praise and support the Jamaica. Every day that God sent, he went to work. On work of Karen McCluskey. Thanks to her there has Friday, he would come home with a brown wage packet been about a 50% reduction in murder and knife crime and give pocket money and a bar of Cadbury’s fruit and in her city. I urge the Minister to support her scheme nut chocolate to my brother and me. We grew up and use it as a model to be rolled out in other places. believing that a real man goes out to work and looks after his family, but the children on my estates have Finally, the vast majority of young men who were never seen that. Very often, they are in households with involved in the incidents in London and in various no male, let alone a male who gets up every day and other parts of the country had a criminal record or had goes to work. In the absence of that family structure, undergone some sort of custodial treatment, whether in the lure of the gang with the apparent easy money, the a young offenders institution or in prison. Clearly, one glamour and the girls is strong. cannot generalise but I must do my best in the minute that is left to me. The three issues that we must address There are issues of family structure, education and in relation to young offenders institutions and prisons educational failure. As my right hon. Friend the Member are literacy, which dovetails into education—clearly, the for Tottenham said, pupil referral units—I do not mean literacy and education of these young men and women to disrespect the people who work in them—are often is extremely poor—skills, and the revolution around little training academies for gangs. There are also issues drugs. If we address those issues, as part of the reform of law enforcement and of resources. However, we must of prisons and young offenders institutions, we will be remember that each and every gang member, however able to grab the people who have slipped through the frightening they may be and however abhorrent and net at an earlier stage. criminal the activity they engage in, is someone’s child. There would have been a point in their lives at which, with the right intervention and the right diversion, they 10.38 am could have been put on the right path. Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I am The Minister will talk about the law enforcement delighted to be making my first speech as a shadow issues, but we also need a holistic strategy if we are to Home Affairs Minister on the issue of gangs. Like save a generation of young men of all colours and all many of the Members here, I have lived and breathed 17WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 18WH this issue for many years as a resident, an MP and a is also important given what my hon. Friend the Member community activist. In that spirit, let me put it on the for Hackney North and Stoke Newington said about record that I am sad that my hon. Friend the Member recognising that this issue affects not just young men for Streatham (Mr Umunna) cannot be here because I and that increasingly young women are a part of gangs, know how strongly and passionately he feels about the and also a part of the solution in terms of addressing matter. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the how we might tackle gangs. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), the hon. Member When the Government are looking at gangs, although for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field), the we may only be starting to understand the nature of right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom gangs in our communities and the variety of gangs that Brake), my hon. Friends the Members for Lewisham we must address, it is important to remember that a lot East (Heidi Alexander) and for Hackney North and of good work has already been undertaken in local Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) and the hon. Member communities and indeed at national level. I urge the for Hexham (Guy Opperman) for their contributions. Minister to draw heavily on the joint thematic report What we are seeing today is a strong commitment from that was produced last year, which I found to be a very all parts of the House to tackle the issues that are useful guide. I think that the hon. Member for Hexham driving gangs in communities across Britain. Clearly, also drew on it, when he talked about the importance of many of us in London are living with these issues on a the youth offending teams and the work of the youth day-to-day basis, but we recognise, as the hon. Member offending institutions in tackling gangs. The joint thematic for Hexham pointed out, that these problems are report was a very useful guide to some of the good work experienced across the country and as such they deserve that is going on to join up services. It looked at some of a joined-up approach. the challenges that exist, including what we can do from With that in mind, my contribution on behalf of the Whitehall to join up services and to help to co-ordinate Opposition is a reflection on what is important in terms action. of the evidence base that we draw on when we have conversations about gangs. I am mindful that the The borough of Waltham Forest in my constituency Government have said that they will bring forward a has had a problem with gangs and so has been piloting gangs strategy in October. I want to ensure that the a range of ways of dealing with gangs. I feel strongly lessons that have been very well drawn out in the debate that that work is important, not least because today—purely today—about the need for a joined-up approach and by coincidence—a young man’s family is coming to visit for a range of Government Departments and partners me in Parliament to meet Louise Casey and to talk at national, local and community levels to be involved—and about people who are victims of gangs. Eze Amosu was some of the concerns that we have about the ability of a young man killed by a gang in my community. When that work to happen, are made clear. we talk about gangs and how we might approach them, it is important that we recognise that young people are It is important to have two debates on this subject primarily the victims of those gangs. It is important to this week. This debate about gangs is different from the support victims’ families too in the work that we do. debate about riots that will happen later this week. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham pointed We know the importance of a joined-up model. As I out, these issues have existed in our communities for said, Waltham Forest has been one of the areas piloting many years. What we saw over the summer was not a a range of activities, following on from the Strathclyde reflection of those issues, but it was informed by them. model that the hon. Member for Hexham talked about. It is important to draw that distinction. The right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington was also right to talk about the Cardiff model and how It is also important to have a clear understanding we join up the reporting of what is going on in hospitals. about what gangs are. My hon. Friend the Member for The police are sometimes late to the game in terms of Hackney North and Stoke Newington made that point knowing where gangs are and what incidents have occurred. very well. When we talk about “gangs”, sometimes we We have seen some real progress in the past couple of all think that we are talking about the same thing but years in working together to identify people who have actually we are not. I am mindful of the work of been victims of gang crime and in supporting them to Professor John Pitts, who made a number of studies come forward, either to remove them from gangs or to about the nature of gangs in our communities. In fact, help to bring prosecutions. he studied my own community in Waltham Forest and he came up with six different typographies of what a What do those lessons teach us? They teach us, not gang might be. least, the lesson that my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham referred to, about the tricky question of It is helpful to think about the difference between the resourcing the work to tackle gangs. As I think the hon. organised and serious crime gangs that we see in the Member for Cities of London and Westminster accepted UK—there are estimates that about 30,000 people are in his contribution, such work is an investment and serious, hardened criminals who are part of those gangs— joining up those services to get a preventive approach and the gangs that we have talked about more today: rather than a curative approach is the way forward. the gangs of young people who are drawn together in our communities, sometimes involuntarily. Professor Bearing that in mind, I have some concerns about the Pitts talks about the “reluctant gangster”, the young future of some of the projects that have worked so far. I people who feel they have no option but to be part of a am particularly mindful of family intervention projects, gang in their local community, either to gain protection which we know are facing cuts. Also, our youth offending or to get opportunities that they do not feel they are teams face cuts. When we are looking at cuts of 20% in getting in other parts of their lives. We must understand our youth offending teams, and indeed at some youth that we need approaches that tackle both those types of offending teams being cut entirely, as we have seen in activities, rather than simply having one approach. That Cornwall, many of us have genuine concerns about the 19WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 20WH

[Stella Creasy] partnerships that we can build with the voluntary sector and those on the ground in our communities. Many of nature of the expertise that we may have to draw on in the youth workers in Walthamstow who I have worked tackling gangs and what might happen to that expertise with in the past 18 months have had their funding either in the years ahead. scaled back or cut entirely. Clearly, that affects their It is also important to look at some of the projects ability to be out on the streets and to build relationships that are peer-led. My hon. Friend the Member for with our young people to help them to make good Lewisham East talked strongly about the importance of choices in their lives. It also affects their ability to work young people themselves addressing some of the concerns with the police, both when we have events such as we about gangs. We have seen some fantastic work with saw over the summer—when we have riots—and in the projects such as Leap that teach conflict prevention in longer term to build positive relationships. schools. Equally, Citizens UK has promoted safe havens. I also hope that the Minister will challenge the Mayor Young people themselves have identified such places. of London, because one of the central parts of our All of us who know about the “postcode wars” recognise relationships in London has been the role of the safer the concerns that many young people have about going neighbourhoods teams and particularly in my area the from street to street. We are also mindful of the experience sergeants who have been able to work on gathering that they have in places that can offer them safety. That intelligence, and on building relationships with voluntary work is important. sector partners and with young people themselves. Clearly, Even if we are aware of individual projects, the losing 300 sergeants in London will impact on our challenge is how we draw all these issues together. That ability to build those relationships and to work in those is the test that I want to set the Minister today. If the ways. Government are serious about tackling gangs, policing must be more than a deterrent; it must be part of a It is not just about the Minister challenging his preventive approach. In that sense, there are some real colleagues in other parts of Government. I also urge tests for the work that must be done across Government. him to rethink the proposals on CCTV. The basic First and foremost, the Minister must challenge his ability of the police to monitor where young people are colleagues within the Department for Education about travelling around and where there are gang incidents, what is happening to our youth services and more and therefore to respond quickly before those incidents generally about what is happening to the role of schools. escalate and knives or other weapons are drawn, is My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and critical. In my local area, CCTV has played a role in Stoke Newington put it incredibly well when she talked that police activity. about the importance of schools in these relationships. The Government must also consider their approach When we are seeing the unhooking of the relationships to antisocial behaviour orders. In Hackney, the police between local authorities and schools, we are seeing a have used ASBOs to great effect to tackle some of the challenge to young people’s ability to achieve educational problems around gangs. I know that people have raised attainment. On a more pragmatic level, safer concerns about the gang injunctions. I urge the Minister neighbourhoods partnerships and safer schools partnerships to look again at the evidence on how those measures rely on those relationships being in place. I think that have been used to deal with some of the issues around my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham put it gang behaviour. well when he talked about those relationships continuing but on an ad hoc basis. Those relationships are too Above all, the relationship that the police can have important for funding and support for them to be with communities is crucial. At a time when we are unhooked. I hope that the Minister will challenge those facing cuts in our policing budget, it is clearly difficult within the DFE who are complacent about this issue. for the police to think in the longer term, yet there has We have already talked about cuts in youth services; never been a greater need for them to do so. When we some areas are facing cuts of 100%. Without the people are seeing unemployment and poverty rising, the landscape who can work at the grass-roots level in our community—to in which the police will be operating will be very difficult. bring the intelligence, and to build relationships between To build those relationships with communities, they the police and young people—our ability to tackle some need to be able to have the people on the ground. of the issues that lead to gang membership will be Poverty is not a cause of gangs, it is not an excuse for compromised as well. gangs and it does not explain gangs, but it creates a landscape in which all the work that many of us have On a long-term basis, I hope that the Minister will talked about today—work that can be the answer to challenge his colleagues within the Department for some of the issues about gangs—is harder to do. Work and Pensions about the issues of unemployment, particularly the cancellation of the future jobs fund. I hope that the Minister will take on board some of With 50,000 young people in London now out of work, the concerns that we have expressed that some of the it simply does not make sense to cancel one of the key things that are happening in other parts of Government programmes to help young people who want to get on will undermine his ability to address gangs, and that he and make positive choices about the kinds of careers will act accordingly. I hope that the Government’s gangs they can have. I hope that the Minister will challenge his strategy in October will be cross-Government, that the colleagues in the DWP accordingly. police will play their part and therefore that the Minister Many of us have already talked about the importance will champion such approaches. Otherwise, I fear we of investment in communities and grass-roots projects. shall be holding similar debates in the years ahead, with I have already touched on the role of youth offending the evidence worsening monthly. All of us who care teams and the concerns that we have about the cuts to about our constituencies and our country foresee the those teams. However, this process is also about the consequences. 21WH Gangs11 OCTOBER 2011 Gangs 22WH

10.50 am by the end of the month. The report will be evidence led, as it should be, and will focus not simply on The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick enforcement, but on the wider issues that have to be Herbert): I congratulate the right hon. Member for addressed. The programme has looked at the evidence Tottenham (Mr Lammy) on initiating the debate and of successful interventions from abroad and in Glasgow on his thoughtful discussion of the long-term issues and Manchester, both of which the Home Secretary with which we must grapple, especially the challenge of visited recently. gangs. I welcome the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella The right hon. Member for Tottenham was slightly Creasy) to the Front Bench and wish her luck. I look disparaging about what he described as US advisers—Bill forward to working with her—constructively, I hope— Bratton is giving evidence to the Home Affairs Committee because I do not believe that there needs to be partisan this morning—but we must take advice and learn from disagreement over some of the issues that we must success in our country and internationally. This week, challenge. Although some Members picked up on particular we are convening an international forum on ending aspects of the Government’s approach, which I shall gang violence at which people from Europe and the deal with, I believe that there is more to agree about United States will share the benefit of their experience. over the long-term issues—for example, exclusion and The Home Secretary has announced that we propose to the need to tackle it. set up an ending youth violence team, which will draw on independent advice. More will be said about it in due Let me put the issue in context. Of the 4,000 people course. arrested in the disorders, two thirds were under 25, but only one in eight was known from police records to be a It is common ground that we must focus on early gang member. Although I say “only”, that clearly is a intervention—the earlier the better. The fact that there large number. However, we must understand that gang is serial reoffending is partial evidence that some of the membership is a significant part of the problem, but earliest interventions are either not occurring or not not the only part—it is symptomatic of the wider youth working. I agree with the hon. Member for Walthamstow violence that we must tackle. Gang members were often that we must acknowledge the police’s role in crime involved in offences at the more serious end of the prevention as well as in enforcement. Sir Robert Peel’s spectrum—for example, in Birmingham, police officers first principle of policing was to prevent crime and were fired on by armed gangs. disorder, and it remains true today. It is important that we tackle gangs and the emerging Members rightly drew attention to the importance of problem of gang activity in some cities, but we cannot effective local partnerships, which we seek to promote. believe that that is where the problem ends, because the One of the significant features of learning in the past wider issues of offending in the riots must also be few years has been that effective partnerships between tackled. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary agencies can make a difference in crime prevention and of State for Justice announced that three quarters of effective interventions. Agencies and local authorities defendants who appeared in relation to the disorder are under a statutory duty to be members of community had previous convictions, and that the average number safety partnerships. of offences was 15. A third of those defendants had In the little time available, I want to challenge the served prison sentences. premise that the solution is money and the fact that we Another lesson we must take from the disorder that are having to save money means that we cannot find goes beyond the issue of gangs is that we have high rates solutions. We have ensured that programmes are targeted of reoffending, which is no surprise to those who have on, for example, knife crime, with £18 million worth of studied the performance of the criminal justice system initiatives that the Home Secretary announced following for years, and that young people are entering the criminal Brooke Kinsella’s recommendations on combating knife justice system and finding themselves caught in a cycle crime. If money was the solution, there would not be a of criminality. We must therefore focus on effective problem, because there has been record spending on the reform of the system. criminal justice system and public services. We must There has been agreement in this short debate that hold a more hard-headed debate on the effectiveness of the solution is not enforcement alone, important though interventions, rather than assume that resources will be it is. Tools are available, including gang injunctions, the whole solution. They cannot be the whole solution, which we propose to extend to those aged 14 to 17, and nor can we lay the blame for youth violence on cuts. effective policing, which will always be a significant My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton component of any response to violence. Opposition and Wallington (Tom Brake) spoke about information Members acknowledged the Prime Minister’s response sharing and the coalition commitment on hospital to the riots, in which he announced a cross-Government information. We intend to ensure that that applies across programme of work led by the Home Secretary that will the country, and I shall write to update him on where tackle gangs and gang violence and report to Parliament we are with that. 23WH 11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 24WH

Rural Bus Services particularly rural deprivation, that need to be taken into account. A lot of people who live in more deprived 11 am rural environments, particularly older people suffering from fuel poverty, must travel a long way for key services. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I appreciate Is that not a point that he is trying to convey? the opportunity to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. It is clear that we all understand the importance Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. of bus services to our constituents across the country, His county of Suffolk has a shortfall of about £1 million. especially in rural areas, but the coalition Government’s Rural areas are hardest hit, because people have the necessary deficit reduction programme is having a marked least opportunity to use public transport and the most effect on the ability to maintain a viable rural transport need for access to it. I will come to that point in a network. moment. Almost half of all bus operator revenue comes from Another funding stream is the bus service operators’ public funding, making bus services particularly vulnerable grant, which has been cut by 20% from 2012. That will to the pressure on public finances that we inherited have a huge direct impact on bus operators. The Select from the previous Government after the recent economic Committee on Transport report “Bus services after crisis. Three main funding streams are available to the spending review”, published in August, stated that public transport authorities, all of which were affected bus operating revenue in England could be reduced by by the 2010 comprehensive spending review. Taken £200 million to £300 million. The impact of that reduction alone, those tough financial measures might have been in rural areas must be understood in context: rural bearable for the rural shire counties and the transport authorities already receive less Government grant per network, and two together would have made life difficult, head of population than others. The Rural Services but the three combined have created a triple whammy Network report by Local Government Futures found that threatens the existence of many subsidised routes that urban authorities receive an average of £487 per in some areas. head, compared with £324 in predominantly rural areas. The first funding stream is local authority revenue Councils are also exposed to more general increases expenditure, which was cut this year by 28%. Local in costs. Local transport authorities are exposed to the authorities use that pot of money to subsidise some increased costs of providing the statutory concessionary transport routes. Changes were also made to the fare scheme. To make up the shortfall, councils are Department for Transport’s formula for concessionary diverting resources from elsewhere, such as previously fare reimbursements. The special grant that accounted available discretionary services. Interestingly, since this for approximately 40% of funding for concessionary debate was granted, public discussion on the issue has travel in Norfolk has been rolled into the formula grant widened to include concessionary travel more generally. due to the comprehensive spending review. In 2010-11, I have been involved with that debate, as have the press the funding available to Norfolk districts was £11 million. in Norfolk. EDP 24 has covered it superbly and supported In 2011-12, the funding attributed through the formula the Fair Fares campaign, and the BBC and Anglia TV grant was just £7.228 million. The impact is that Norfolk have covered it as well. I will turn to concessionary county council’s statutory payment will substantially travel in a moment. exceed the allocation, by about £3.5 million. In total, The Transport Committee’s recent report noted that Norfolk is £4.2 million worse off, or £4.4 million on by June 2011 more than 70% of English local authorities some figures. After negotiations, the county council has had decided to reduce funding for supported bus services, done an excellent job of working with bus operators and that the extent of the reductions varied considerably, and other transport providers to find another £1.2 million, although, in general, rural, evening and Sunday bus reducing the gap to just over £3 million. services were most affected, as is the case in Norfolk. The funding allocation method from April 2011 uses a standard formula to distribute all funding related to Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I can the statutory scheme via the revenue support grant. The certainly confirm what my hon. Friend says. In Devon, formula considers factors such as population density, 70 bus routes have been cut or rescheduled. I am concerned the number of people over 60 without a car and the that the social necessity justifying the provision of bus proportion of residents on incapacity benefit. Under services by local government is still subject to considerable that formula, Norfolk does not fare well in the funding interpretation. distribution; it has the second highest shortfall of all county councils for 2011-12. That is on top of figures published yesterday by the BBC showing that public Brandon Lewis: Absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend, expenditure for the eastern region is the second lowest who represents a constituency that illustrates how difficult in the United Kingdom, at £7,300 a head. The north-west the issue has been for rural areas. Norfolk is the third receives £9,500, and Scotland receives £10,500. Norfolk worst hit, but Devon has been the worst hit, with a 42% suffers for being cast as part of the prosperous eastern cut of £4.5 million. region, but figures for the region are skewed by the The Campaign for Better Transport figures to be wealth and prosperity of areas such as Essex and published later this week analyse figures requested from Cambridgeshire. Norfolk has pockets of rural deprivation local authorities under freedom of information legislation and, in areas such as Great Yarmouth, severe urban and indicate that 74% of local authorities across England deprivation as well. have decided to cut their bus budgets over the period 2011-12 to 2013-14. In Norfolk, to ensure that the cost Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) of the scheme remains within the available budget, the (Con): My hon. Friend is making a good point. Even county council has had to announce that it will discontinue relatively affluent regions have pockets of deprivation, most of the discretionary elements that it previously 25WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 26WH provided, including travel before 9.30 in the morning, Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for his the provision of companion passes, and travel all day, comments— every day for registered blind pass holders. Norfolk county council’s need to meet the shortfall in Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): On that point, if future years puts subsidised routes, predominantly in one is doing statistics, I have the largest constituency rural areas, at risk. Campaign for Better Transport represented in the Chamber. I very much support my figures show that £36 million has already been cut from hon. Friend’s point, but do not the Government need to local authority funding for subsidised bus services, reducing change the legislation to ensure that local councils funding across England from 2010-11 to 2011-12. In control the bus companies, rather than the bus companies addition, more than 1,000 subsidised bus services have being in control? A bus company can drop a route at the already been cut in the English regions. Rural communities drop of a hat, and the local council has no control over will be the ones most affected by the loss of those the way the company runs that route. That is the origin services, as their Sunday or evening buses will disappear, of the problems we all face. bus frequency will be reduced and whole routes could disappear. Brandon Lewis: I thank both my hon. Friends for their interventions. To take them one at a time, I agree Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I congratulate that we need to look at more progressive and more my hon. Friend on securing the debate; it is telling how flexible options for rural communities, and local authorities many Members have turned up to participate. Does he need to look at how we drive those forward. There are recognise that the deprivation around former coalfields things the Government can do to encourage that, and I and the challenge of getting people in those areas to will touch on those in a moment, but we should certainly and from employment makes Nottinghamshire a special be nudging people and leading the way in pushing local case? authorities to look at different options. There are options in rural areas where a bus route is Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for his simply not economically viable for a bus company and intervention. Nottinghamshire’s funding has fallen by where the rural authority might not have the funding to £1.7 million, or about 18%, so it, too, will feel the effect subsidise that route for very low usage. It would be of the changes. He is absolutely right that people in advantageous if people could use a concessionary pass rural areas of all sorts have problems with access to more flexibly, whether in taxis or other forms of community transport, whether they are young people looking for transport. The Government could make such an option work or older people. Bus services can be their only way available; I will touch on that in a moment. My hon. of leaving their rural community and accessing an Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) is urban area for shopping and everyday needs. That is right about creating the flexibility to allow local authorities why things are so difficult for rural areas, particularly in to push things forward. Norfolk. Some villages have low bus usage due to low population, yet buses can be a lifeline for people there The cuts in funding to rural authorities, which already who are without access to vehicles. They provide their receive less funding than urban authorities, combined only mode of transport and access to other areas. with the additional cost of providing bus services in rural areas, mean that rural residents are at an even Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In Northern Ireland, greater disadvantage than urban residents. A 2009 Leeds rural transport has been provided by community and university study on the use of passes showed that—in voluntary initiatives. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that Lancashire, for example—76% of passengers live in large such initiatives could happen across constituencies on urban areas. It also highlighted the difference in the use the UK mainland? If so, how would that happen? of passes, with 53% of pass holders in urban areas not using their passes during a five-year period, compared Brandon Lewis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his with 71% in village areas. That might be because of lack intervention. I agree that we can do more to look at of bus availability in those rural areas or higher car alternative forms of transport and how they can be ownership, but it is clear that the bus scheme pushes funded. If he bears with me, I will come to that in a few higher usage in urban areas. The point is that although minutes, but I absolutely agree with the principle of rural areas might have lower usage, buses are vital to what he says. those who use them. If we are not careful, we will create a vicious circle. In rural areas, public transport is a lifeline. Equally, however, the problem for local authorities and bus The Commission for Rural Communities and others, companies is that they have to make an economic case; including the Countryside Alliance, have highlighted they have to do the best they can with taxpayers’ money the lack of transport as a key to social exclusion in the to ensure that it is properly invested. As private companies, countryside, which is already particularly prevalent among bus companies also have to look after their financial young, elderly and disabled members of rural communities, interests. and it can only get worse against a background of rising fuel costs. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): My hon. Friend makes some compelling points, and my county of Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Lincolnshire, which is very rural, also suffers from the Pembrokeshire) (Con): Does my hon. Friend recognise— circumstances he describes. However, does he agree that perhaps he will implore the Minister to take this on bus companies—there are exceptions—too often follow board—that there is rural and there is rural, and we Government or council grants, rather than try to stimulate should not generalise too much? The point about social their own services or provide services based on commercial exclusion is far more relevant in isolated rural areas needs? than in reasonably well populated rural areas. In places 27WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 28WH

[Simon Hart] Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I echo what my hon. Friend says. Will he admit, however, that there such as Meirionnydd in north Wales, we are talking are problems that the council must tackle? There is the about isolation, which is a very different matter, so I problem of people from off the island getting free hope we can make a distinction between rurality and transport on the island. People come into the area—I isolated rurality. am sure this is true of most areas—for a holiday or for some other reason, but there is no income, or insufficient income, to the bus companies. Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and support his comments. One important Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend, who has issue on which we need to move forward, and one thing first-hand experience of that development. Like him, I I will ask the Minister to work on with colleagues, is represent an area that is heavily used by tourists; in fact, flexibility. In the spirit of true localism, we need to it is the second most popular seaside tourist resort in ensure that we achieve solutions that are suitable for an the country. The system means that areas used by area, rather than just one size fits all, because what suits tourists can be further adversely affected. That is partly one place will not necessarily be perfect in another. the result of the complicated arrangement in place for funding bus systems. One of the best things the Government have done—I pay credit to them for what they have Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) done so far—is to simplify the system. Some organisations (Con): I appreciate the opportunity to say that some claim that at one point under the previous Government very good rural bus schemes have been set up by villages there were 22 different forms of funding for the bus in my constituency, and I would highlight Broughton. system. We have got that down to three or four, and it Local communities, which know their areas best and would be a great success if the Government simplified know the demand, need that flexibility and the ability to things further over the next couple of years and introduced come together to form solutions that will be responsive one funding system that was transparent and to their needs, rather than one-size-fits-all solutions. understandable to everybody and that sat with one Department. Brandon Lewis: I wholeheartedly agree. Another new scheme serves rural Northamptonshire with a fleet of new low-floor minibuses. It allows passengers Reduced or withdrawn bus services, which are quite to book a seat by telephone or text or on the internet so likely in areas such as Norfolk, will make people more that elderly or frail people can be picked up from home, socially isolated, and make it harder for them to access while others are collected at village bus stops at a set employment, education and vital services, such as health time. That is Northamptonshire county council’s excellent care and retail facilities. Casework in my constituency response to the need to save millions by reforming shows that some of those issues are already prevalent. subsidised services. It is much better and more cost-effective, Any further loss of, or reduction in, rural bus services and it reacts much more to the needs of the user than a can only exacerbate the problem faced by rural communities, large, heavily subsidised bus going round villages when which have already been hit by rising fuel costs, increased it is often empty or close to empty. reliance on cars and increasingly long and frequent car journeys. Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con): I congratulate We need to look at options for the future. The my hon. Friend on initiating the debate. He has just Government need to encourage and enable local authorities touched on a point we should all be aware of. We are in to provide alternative rural transport models. Where a coalition Government, and there are cuts taking place, necessary, they should provide additional funding to which we support. In my experience as a Norfolk MP, kick-start that process, and there are exciting examples however, the crucial thing about the local bus service, of that innovative approach across the country. Hon. rather like the local post office, is that people use it or Members have mentioned some, but let me give a few lose it. I am not here to defend the bus companies, but specific examples. there is all too often public pressure to maintain a service, but when it is maintained, nobody uses it. We This September, Isle of Wight council joined bus need to look at how these services are publicised and operator Southern Vectis to form a community bus ensure that the public are made aware that it is not in partnership that is the first of its kind in the country. the interests of either the Government or individual bus That follows the scrapping of the council-owned Wightbus companies to maintain the kind of services that my to save £175,000 a year. Working in conjunction with hon. Friend mentioned. Such services merely go round town and parish councils, voluntary drivers run some and round the rural areas and are lucky if they get two rural services. Southern Vectis provides off-peak school or three people using them. minibuses and driver training. The council has also allocated additional funding for community bus services. Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for his That arrangement avoids the problem of capital costs, intervention. I fully support what he says. It is important which confronts many other community transport schemes, to find a way of ensuring that local authorities can be removing the risk from the voluntary sector. Before any more flexible in how they work with the bus operators union representatives complain, I should say that the and other forms of community transport, so that they service is not taking jobs away from existing drivers can allow for more cost-effective usage and be more because it is an additional service, which ensures that responsive to local needs. existing services remain. As a result of that partnership working, Southern Vectis has won this year’s transport Jim Shannon: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on operator of the year award. That is a great example of his points. A pilot scheme similar to that operated by what can be done. Translink in Northern Ireland could be considered as 29WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 30WH an option. It identifies what services are needed through by the previous Government. Such a scheme is difficult the community, for example, there may be a run on a to sustain and the issues surrounding it have opened up Tuesday and a Thursday. Elected representatives work this debate, so that it has become a discussion about with communities, Translink and the bus companies. how concessionary passes operate. If we accept that a We are looking for flexibility. Does he agree that having large contributory factor to the current rural bus funding flexibility within bus companies is the type of initiative crisis is the increased cost of providing a concessionary needed to ensure that rural communities—isolated ones fare scheme, we have to consider how that can be and others—can have the advantage of rural transport? reformed. It is absolutely right—I fully support this—that the Brandon Lewis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his coalition agreement insists that the Government will intervention. We certainly need more flexibility in the continue to keep the scheme. However, we need to find a system. Whether that is purely in relation to bus operators way to fund it realistically for the long term. That or we have a system that allows for community transport means allowing councils to have enough flexibility to to be authorised, run and organised by local authorities, cover administration costs or offer innovative alternatives, we need an approach that is more flexible than simply some of which I, and colleagues, have touched on this looking at the traditional system of buses. As my hon. morning. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) has mentioned, buses are not necessarily the most cost-effective Mr Spencer: I just want to make the point that solution or, indeed the best answer for users. We need residents in Nottinghamshire, for example, may live transport that can be used in rural areas by those with close to the border of another county and may want to concessionary passes. As I was saying, demand-led services shop in Derbyshire, visit relatives in Yorkshire or travel are vital if a rural network of transport is to exist. It is to Leicestershire to gain employment. It is important perhaps time to start talking about transport in the that the scheme has the flexibility to allow such residents rural sense, rather then simply focusing on buses, which to move across county borders, so that they can gain might not necessarily give the best service and use. access to relatives, employment or health services. I am delighted that my county council in Norfolk has agreed to provide additional funding to look at and Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a very good develop exactly that style of service. At the moment, point. In Great Yarmouth, residents from Lowestoft more than 1,700 community transport organisations and across the Waveney constituency use the James operate in England alone and offer transport services Paget hospital and need transport to get there. However, for people who are unable to access traditional public there is a difference between that and the use of public transport. It is vital that local authorities and organisations transport for tourism. Legislation does give some protection are empowered to provide alternative provision for residents. in relation to that, but the system is so complicated that An additional £10 million funding for community it is difficult to differentiate in some cases between transport in rural areas is very, very welcome. However, tourism use and required local use. Were we to pursue the concessionary fares scheme does not apply to most that level of detail in the legislation, it might force the community transport schemes because they operate Government to become too deeply involved in the detail under section 19 of the Transport Act 1985. Currently, of a local system’s provision. only registered services run by community transport We need to consider, or at least discuss, the potential operators under a section 22 permit are eligible for the for reform of the system, so that it is targeted on our scheme. I was disappointed that, when I received a reply poorest or most vulnerable pensioners. We also need to from the Minister to a recent written question, it indicated discuss whether the concessionary fare pass should be that the Government refuse to consider altering the issued at 60 or according to the retirement age. If we do legislation to widen the eligibility further and that they not have reform, concessionary passes could end up are leaving the matter at the discretion of local authorities. being worthless. For many pensioners in rural areas, I ask the Government to look at that issue because having a concessionary pass is useful, but only if there is dealing with it would be a positive step forward that transport to use it on. Some bus operators have already could further encourage, develop and empower local made suggestions, such as having a flat-rate 50p charge. decisions to be made by local councils and bus and In some areas, concessionary pass holders are already other transport operators based on local need. I agree being asked to pay a voluntary fee and a flat-rate charge with the Select Committee on Transport’s recommendation per journey. made in August this year that: “If the Government genuinely wants to encourage the growth of the community transport sector, it should legislate to permit Dr Poulter: I accept my hon. Friend’s point about the the use of the concessionary pass on a wider range of community bus operators. Does he not also agree that the onus is on transport services.” bus operators to look at their services and pro-actively engage with local communities, particularly in rural Mr Andrew Turner: Would it not be worth while in areas, to make sure that they are more responsive to some way restricting the viability of the scheme, so that local needs? Far too often, certainly in Suffolk, the bus someone cannot arrive on the Isle of Wight from operators are not responsive to local needs. When a Northumberland and wave a flag? Some local use of service is non-profitable, they cut the service and it is these things is fine, but we do not want a national the frail elderly who lose out. scheme. Brandon Lewis: There is an absolute need for operators Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point to be looking locally and for local authorities to work in the sense that the national scheme as it has been with local communities and put further pressure on structured is effectively a bear trap left for this Government those companies. In Great Yarmouth, we have had 31WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 32WH

[Brandon Lewis] Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend’s contribution again highlights the need for flexibility and true localism. My examples of routes that have been considered for colleagues and I across Norfolk work together on a cancellation and, by working with the local authorities range of issues. We know that there are vast differences and the bus company, we have been able to restore a across our county. Even in my constituency of Great usable route that services residents. If a route is simply Yarmouth, I have areas of dense population and urban not economically viable, when money is scarce we need areas in Great Yarmouth town itself, as well as sparsely to consider alternative forms of transport that can populated rural areas in some villages. Norfolk, from provide the service that local residents need. That might the centre of Norwich to extreme rural areas, is a good not necessarily be a bus. We are talking about providing example of how needs, desires and requirements differ. the transport service that is needed in a cost-effective Flexibility is needed. way and that allows people to live their lives productively. When I recently did an interview on BBC Radio George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): As a fellow Norfolk, I discussed the possibility raised by bus companies Norfolk MP, it seems appropriate to pick up on that of having a 50p flat rate and an admin charge for point. I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising this getting a concessionary pass in the first place, and issue, and the attendance in the Chamber indicates the whether we should change the age of eligibility to level of support that he has. Does my hon. Friend agree retirement age rather than 60. I was pleasantly surprised that we are witnessing a perfect storm? The combination because, despite expecting a barrage of criticism, we of our elderly population, the marginality in rural areas received some very positive responses. One resident and energy prices goes to the heart of how Governments said: through the ages have under-recognised rural deprivation, as the indices they use tend to under-measure rural “In regard to the recent news of the deficit we are facing with deprivation. The last time I looked, I discovered that the bus pass I heard you on Radio Norfolk and thought your opinions echoed mine and I am sure many more. I would be more ethnicity was a major driver for Government measurement than happy to pay 50p each trip which would more than cover the of deprivation. Norfolk has a very low incidence of debt.” ethnicity and a very high incidence of rural deprivation. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that. Does he Cornwall county council, for example, has called for feel, as I do, a huge public yearning to solve this issue legislative changes to allow pass holders to make a with a bit more flexibility, perhaps with a voucher small payment for each journey. It has written to all the model in some areas? In general, Government schemes county’s MPs to ask them to lobby for such a change. are not very good at delivering what the customer wants. If we empower people by giving them the money Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I that we currently spend, we might find that the public, congratulate my hon. Friend, who makes exactly the through the big society model, find their own solutions. point that I want to make, on securing the debate. During the summer, in meetings in village halls around Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a strong point. my constituency, there was universal support for the To highlight his point about the elderly population, in idea that some people could contribute a flat fee of 50p the next 15 years in Great Yarmouth alone it is estimated or £1. I accept that, for people living in poverty and on that the number of residents of pensionable age will mean-tested benefits, that would be too much, but there increase by 35%. Given the rural community across is strong support for consideration to be given to the Norfolk, that figure highlights how important access to introduction of a flat fee. In the spirit of localism, the transport is for people of that generation. As I touched Minister should enable councils to be pathfinders if on earlier, access is also important for young people in they want to do so. In this age of austerity, we are rural areas, where there are issues around deprivation enabling many councils to be pathfinders and to work and where we are trying to stimulate and grow the with residents and stakeholders to find sustainable ways economy and increase youth employment. of funding vital public services. What better example A flat-rate charge, which was mentioned, would raise and lead could the Government provide than to enable approximately £5 million a year in Norfolk alone. That certain local authorities to pilot flat fees where there is would safeguard all rural services and the wider network overwhelming support from residents? across the county. However, the Department for Transport thus far seems to have adopted quite a negative response Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend is right, particularly to that suggestion. The Department has written to all in relation to overwhelming desire from local residents councils saying: to see a service continue. We need to be more flexible. “requesting voluntary donations to protect a particular route,” is illegal, and doubts whether they are, in reality, voluntary. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I congratulate my The basis of that is that the claim of a threat of removal hon. Friend on securing what is undoubtedly an important of a service, without a donation, is tantamount to debate. Following on from that point, in the past local coercion. There is a very fine line to be drawn. authorities put in seed funding to get rural transport Other options include making the bus pass liable to services and rural bus services up and running. If they an annual fee. A study by Leeds university found that were successful they carried on, on a commercial level. 56% of pass holders did not use it over a five-week We must give local authorities extra powers to put some period. I have met numerous people recently who have of the money from a flat fee back into the service and, raised the fact that, although they are of an age to have working with the community, to ensure full access to a bus pass and do have one, they never actually use it. services. It is down to local authorities to work with the The administration cost of issuing passes that are not community, but they need the power to be able to do so. required, therefore, could be saved. Should the taxpayer 33WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 34WH provide concessionary passes to those who are still in options, allowing local authorities to be more flexible full-time employment? I made the point earlier about and—I appreciate that I am moving beyond the subject whether the pass is issued at the correct age currently. I of the debate—even moving beyond focusing only on urge the Minister to extend the validity of cards from buses, may go a long way to solve this problem. As we five years to 10 years, so that county councils such as have heard, in some very remote areas of low population, Norfolk, whose renewals are due in 2013, do not face bus usage may not be the most cost-effective way of the cost of renewing the concessionary passes. For providing transport. We need to allow local authorities Norfolk county council, that cost is approximately £250,000. to be able to use funding to allow people to use That could be better spent on providing rural transport concessionary travel passes, and have access to other services. forms of transport that may deliver a better demand-driven The coalition Government were left with a formal service that is also more cost-effective for the taxpayer. bear trap—a system of transport that is simply not The Eastern Daily Press and the Great Yarmouth sustainable. The Department for Communities and Local Mercury, two excellent bastions of journalism in Norfolk, Government and the Department for Transport have have been superb in supporting the fair fares campaign, both had to deal with a complicated and convoluted which in just a few days has already garnered more than form of funding that many organisations have struggled 2,500 signatures. I call on everybody across Norfolk, to understand fully. I have a request for Norfolk in who has access to the internet or who can get hold of a particular, but for rural areas in general. We appreciate copy of either of these excellent newspapers, to join the that money is scarce. As much as we would like to call petition and let us have their support in moving forward for the money—the £6 million shortfall in Lancashire, to get fairer funding for transport services across Norfolk. and approximately £4 million in Kent, Norfolk, Devon, I know colleagues have similar views about their own Hampshire and other counties this year—we appreciate rural areas. that the Department for Transport, or the Treasury, Will the Minister, for next year’s funding round, find does not have the ability to wave a magic wand and more ways to simplify the system? It would be ideal for deliver that kind of a response. Although county councils the system to be planted in one Department in a clear, might not appreciate this, I suspect that if they felt there transparent system that people can understand, to allow was some certainty in the years ahead, they would be concessionary passes to be used beyond the traditional able to find ways of dealing with the situation in the methods, and for local authorities to have more flexibility short term. to provide better, different and more progressive forms There was a feeling in some county councils, such as of transport that can be more demand-driven and cost- Norfolk, that there must simply have been a mistake in effective for the taxpayer. That would protect rural the funding formula this year, to lead to such variations transport services for the future, and for the use of from previous years. Sorting out funding in the future everybody. does not just require a magic wand. It is vital to ensure access for rural areas and to prevent further rural 11.39 am deprivation and poverty. We need to find a better balance of funding. At present, the system is overly beneficial to Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): It is a urban areas and hugely detrimental to rural areas. Will pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. the Minister find a better balance next year to ensure I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Great that rural areas, as I and a range of hon. Members have Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), who, in the 17 months that mentioned, are not so adversely affected in the years he has been in this Parliament, has put the “great” back ahead? With an ageing population in particular, this into Great Yarmouth. cannot be tolerated. It will be detrimental to youth Rural bus services were an issue before the general employment in rural areas, to economic growth in such election and have continued to be so in my constituency areas, to families and to our country. of wonderful South Derbyshire—I have put the “south” into South Derbyshire. The difficulty we find in our Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): I rural areas is that we can take a bus out on a Tuesday congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important but we have to wait until Thursday to get the bus back. debate. This is a huge issue in my post bag, as I am sure That is not conducive to family life, I find. it is for hon. Members across Norfolk. I agree completely I ask the Minister to take on board many of the with his point about flexibility. It is not just about the points made by my hon. Friend and, in particular, the amount of money that we are spending; it is also about issues of flexibility and whether we can expand how that money is spent. How will flexibility help to opportunities. Shropshire has brought in community deliver more on-demand bus services and better integration buses to act as feeders to the main bus routes. In one with rail services? Two rail services go through the village on my patch, Scropton, we have had round-table South West Norfolk constituency—the Fen line and the meetings with three different commercial bus providers. Norwich-Cambridge line. There is an opportunity to None of them can make that route work but we could integrate those services better with local transport. find a way for the county council to put the money into feeder, community transport buses if the section 19 Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for her arrangement could be changed to allow for that. Will intervention. As I said earlier, we need to ask the the Minister be kind enough to look at the pilots Department to find ways of allowing local authorities around the country, because rural, isolated parts of to be more flexible, having a national structure through Derbyshire provide an opportunity for the money to be which local authorities can allow people to use their used better, which is what the coalition Government concessionary pass on other forms of transport. More ought to be all about? The coalition should be about forms of public transport, more community transport freedom, accessibility and using public money wisely. 35WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 36WH

[Heather Wheeler] they underestimate the levels of poverty and the number of those struggling on low incomes who use the buses to I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important go to work, school or hospital. In Cornwall, we have debate and I sincerely hope that the Minister will be only one acute hospital for the whole county, which is able to come up with some excellent answers. I shall stay more than 100 miles long. CAB Cornwall, the citizens through to the bitter end of 12.30 to listen to those advice bureaux, has done some excellent work showing brilliant answers. If he can sort out the bus issue in the cost to society of the lack of affordable access to Scropton, he would make my life so much happier. transport. High numbers of people miss doctor or hospital appointments, which is detrimental not only to 11.41 am personal health but to the whole of society because of the costs of them not accessing such vital services. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I am pleased to be able to speak on rural bus services. The issue is apposite Guy Opperman: As always, my hon. Friend makes a because on 26 September Northumberland county council telling point, and I endorse entirely what she said. issued the report of its bus subsidy working group. I Certain organisations are stepping into the breach, endorse the all-party work, led by Councillor Gordon and I would like to support the work of Adapt, which Castle, to bring together a proper and legitimate way has stepped in to provide an essential public service but forward for the bus services of Northumberland. The has gone further than traditional countryside bus provision. problems of Great Yarmouth presented by my hon. It targets those who need the service by operating a Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon dial-a-ride scheme, picking up local residents from their Lewis) are common to all of us and endemic in all our home. The service has proved extremely successful and counties and constituencies. We have a common will invaluable to those with young children and to the and desire to change the policies of the past, which have elderly, who felt that their access to buses was limited seen a gradual decline in bus services, to the detriment under the old, more traditional provision. I totally of people in rural areas. I hope and pray that the endorse the dial-a-ride system as the way forward for Minister will take on board and progress the excellent traditional rural bus services that are failing to provide. suggestions arising out of today’s timely and proper I want to finish with two particular points, which debate. relate to what the Government can do for us, touching I represent the second largest constituency in this first on integration and secondly on the degree of country, and rural bus services are clearly an important control that Government and local councils have on bus factor. Without question, the Hadrian’s wall bus service services. I represent a constituency that is entirely in provided by the Hadrian’s Wall Heritage company and Northumberland, but Durham is below me—it is good Northumberland county council provides a great service to see my neighbour in the Chamber, the hon. Member for tourism. Not only rural bus services are at stake, for North West Durham (Pat Glass)—Cumbria is to the however, and I do not want us to fall into the trap of west, Newcastle is to the east, and the bus services have being champions solely of those suffering from rural to integrate. I also have Scotland to the north and, fuel poverty and poor rural bus services, because those although we do not have an awful lot of bus services to matters are also common to the market towns and Scotland, there should still be a degree of integration. villages in our constituencies. Those areas are not The sadness is that there is no integration between fundamentally rural, but include 5,000 or 3,000-people individual bus services operating in one county and the towns that are absolutely dependent on bus services. All next—that must come from the Government giving of us could highlight individual areas of rural bus guidance. We have the bizarre situation of the bus poverty—if that is the proper expression—that we could companies literally not talking to each other, let alone describe, note and champion, but the little towns and planning individual services with each other. villages also need support. That is what I particularly To go further, we rightly have a degree of competition, want to discuss. with bus companies able to provide local bus services, I have the great fortune—I express that passionately—to but we can have the bizarre situation of two bus companies have three particular bus champions in my constituency competing for the same journey, with the result that who regularly fill my postbag. In Prudhoe, I wish to cite neither can make a profit or provide a service and we Robert Forsyth and Amanda Carr, who promote the end up with no bus company in that area. The Government cause of buses and are, quite rightly, on the case of bus must be able to find some way to enforce a degree of companies such as the euphemistically named Go North integration when the ultimate contract is awarded to a East, which does not seem to go very far or to continue bus company, so that the parties and partners work to go very often—it would be well named, if only it together and not against each other. fulfilled its name. They champion the desire of local Simon Hart: To reinforce that point, I have an example people to have buses that support them in local villages. for the Minister. If I am a concessionary pass holder in The Hexham Courant, my local paper, has supported Wales, I cannot use my pass in England, but if I am one Mrs Carr. Her mother and mother-in-law try to take the in England, I can use my pass in Wales—there are one children to and pick them up from school using the or two exceptions in north Wales and the border counties—a local bus service but, if it goes, they will not be able to situation which displays a ludicrous lack of foresight. If do so, so continuing to work will be impossible and the Minister can square that with the Welsh Assembly, there will be huge difficulties on the way ahead. he would be doing an even better job than he is doing at the moment. Sarah Newton: My hon. Friend is making some good points. People often think that rural bus services are a Guy Opperman: I am grateful for the example. We bit of a luxury—some have cars sitting in their drives could all provide examples of our bus companies and but choose to use bus passes because they have them—but the respective counties in charge of bus services not 37WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 38WH working together. There are good examples: we have a across to local bus services and subsidies. I am sure that partnership in Northumberland with the Newcastle some hon. Members here will be in a worse situation, system, and that works very well, but it is an isolated but some communities in my constituency have no example sadly. I urge that degree of integration. Surely buses on Sundays, some have none after 6 pm, and some that is localism in its purest form—the degree to which have only one bus a week. Some communities have no local organisations talk to each other, rather than existing buses at all. That has hit the elderly, the disabled and, in a silo, which has been the case for so long. particularly in my constituency, the young. We have not I finish on the point I made to my hon. Friend the heard much about young people, but they tell me that Member for Great Yarmouth. At present, the Local my county has cut all home-to-school transport to the Government Association is in broad terms seeking greater absolute legal limit. It has cut all home-to-school transport control of bus companies. We currently have the to faith schools, which has had a massive impact in my Government as the ultimate provider, which is passed constituency, and all home-to-school or home-to-college down to county councils, and the county council then transport for those aged 16 and above. abrogates the responsibility to individual bus companies. The bus company then runs the show. It can stop a Heather Wheeler: I am glad that the hon. Lady raised service, and do whatever it likes with it. The Government school transport. Derbyshire county council is holding must give guidance to the local authority so that it massive consultation on the issue. Some of my villages works with the bus company, and the company does not are astride roads such as the A50 and the A38, which stop a service just because it does not like it after the are major roads, and the thought of 11, 12 and 13-year-olds contract has been awarded. trying to cross them because they are on a route as the crow flies is bizarre. I thank her for bringing up education Mr Andrew Turner: Will my hon. Friend consider a transport. problem that applies to the Isle of Wight? I did not accuse Northumberlanders of this, but in some areas—mine Pat Glass: I agree with everything that the hon. Lady is one—there is a bus monopoly. In my constituency says. In parts of my constituency, as the nights are there is a complete monopoly, and one bus company getting darker, young people from age 11 must walk covers the whole island. There is no entry, and that home along roads that are unsafe because they do not should be considered. have footpaths or street lighting. Guy Opperman: I now give way to my hon. Friend. Julian Smith: The problem also affects love. Cat Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The point Walker came to my surgery a few weeks ago and said that my hon. Friend made about the Government that it had taken her four hours to get to see her communicating with councils is key.Whether on integration boyfriend. He lives in Harrogate, she in Skipton. The or the funding formula, one of the biggest issues for problem is having a detrimental effect on young people’s North Yorkshire county council was that it was landed love interest. with a £5 million deficit with no communication from the Department for Communities and Local Government. Pat Glass: I was coming to that—not exactly love, but I urge him to press his point, and to press the Minister young people’s prospects. They tell me that they are to bring county councils that have been particularly being forced to take courses at local schools and colleges, affected down to London now to ensure that the next when that is not the right choice for their future. The settlement is better organised. problem is having a long-term impact on young people’s relationships and their future, which also has an impact Guy Opperman: It is hard for me to improve on the on society generally and the economy. last two points. Both hon. Friends made good and As with everything, some people are never pleased. I telling contributions. Greater localism, which surely have had constituents at my surgeries with real issues brings all parties together, is a way forward. The individual about education, isolation and so on, but I have also silo system, with individual counties and companies had constituents who obtained many signatures working alone, has existed for far too long. It is for the complaining that the local bus no longer passes their common good and ultimately that of the Government house and they must walk half a mile to the nearest bus to bring everyone together, bash their heads together, stand. It is difficult to sympathise with them. and get a better system than we have at the moment. There are issues concerning deregulation and monopoly. In parts of my constituency, there is one bus company 11.52 am and it can do what it likes. I had experience of that Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): It is a pleasure recently, and had to bully and threaten the chief executive to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I warmly of the local bus company to join me at a village public congratulate the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth meeting. The purpose was not to have a go at the (Brandon Lewis) on securing the debate, which is so company, which I accept must make a profit, but to important to so many of us. As my colleague, the hon. enable people to make constructive suggestions about Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), said, we have how to provide local transport and how to deal with exactly the same problems, although there is a border problems of the sort that we have heard about today. between us. The problem is huge in North West Durham, The problem will affect us all, and it is incumbent on and in a huge rural area, which many hon. Members us to do something about it. An elderly couple, who are here represent. close to me and who had a car, were reasonably well off When I talked to my local authority about the problem, and things were fine. They moved back to a village in it said that it took a £400 million hit in cuts, with a 28% Durham where they had grown up. The gentleman had cut in local transport. It has simply passed that 28% cut a bad stroke, but things were still fine because his wife 39WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 40WH

[Pat Glass] John Woodcock: I am not alone in my criticisms, or in suggesting that some cuts have gone too far and that could drive, so they could get about to the shops and to more funding should be made available. The hon. Member hospital appointments. She was then struck down with for Great Yarmouth mentioned additional funds to macular degeneration and is going blind, so she cannot kick-start rural initiatives. That is an interesting idea drive. They are in a dreadful situation. They have a and I wait to hear whether the Minister will take it up lovely bungalow that they cannot sell because of the and where he will find the money. economy. They cannot get to the shops, and the bus that used to run within a reasonable distance has now stopped. Brandon Lewis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his In a short time, that couple, who reflect many of us and support in some parts so far. The key point in my our constituents and whose situation was relatively closing remarks concerned looking at the balance of okay, found themselves in serious difficulties. Whatever funding, not overall funding. We must deal with our the Minister does—whether on flexibility and funding, economic deficit, but we must also look at the balance flexibility and regulation, or flexibility of local between urban and rural areas. transportation—something must be done, and quickly. Part of the problem suffered in rural areas might not have been as severe, or might not even have existed, if 11.58 am the legislation passed by the previous Government in 2000 and updated in 2008—that on quality contracts, John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): effectively franchising agreements—had been used. Those I congratulate the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth contracts have not been implemented by any local (Brandon Lewis) on securing the debate. It has been authorities, despite it being agreed that that would be a worth while, but we will see how worth while when we good move forward. That may be because the previous hear the Minister’s answers. I will speak briefly to give Government created such a convoluted and complicated him as much time as possible to expand on the points system that no one could work their way through it, that have been raised, particularly the free bus pass, which highlights my request to find a better way to which I shall say more about in a moment. simplify the system so that some of the quality contracts can proceed. That may be part of the solution and [MR LEE SCOTT in the Chair] provide the flexibility that many of us are looking for. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will comment on that. It was a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Caton, and it is now a pleasure to see you in the Chair, John Woodcock: That is an interesting point. We Mr Scott. There has been a lightening transformation. thought that quality bus contracts were an important Barrow and Furness is a semi-rural constituency in move forward and they were successful in some areas. Cumbria and it has been hit incredibly hard, as have many other rural areas. In my patch so far, we have Brandon Lewis: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. campaigned for a temporary and partial reprieve for Gentleman, but I want to clarify the fact that, according some services, but a great question mark hangs over to the House of Commons Library, not a single contract them, as is the case in many of the areas that have been has been implemented thus far. I am not sure what area referred to. I grew up in the red republic of south he is referring to when he says that they have been Yorkshire, as it was then, when my right hon. Friend the successful. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) was the firebrand leader of Sheffield city John Woodcock: There have been areas where quality council, and one could go anywhere in south Yorkshire bus contracts have made a difference. for 10p, or for 2p for juniors such as I was. Back in those days, we did not anticipate Norfolk county council joining the agitation about buses, but that is a sign of Hon. Members: Where? our changed times. There is great consensus on some of the points raised Pat Glass: Tyne and Wear. today, and Government Members might wish to see me as someone who said what he really thought. Government John Woodcock: My hon. Friend says Tyne and Wear, Members are polite people who are looking to their and I am sure that the Minister, who has inherited this future in Parliament. The triple whammy effect was situation, will tell us where the contracts have been a mentioned, and it is being severely felt. The hon. Member success. There was progress in some areas, but we need for Great Yarmouth was polite when he explained that to go further. I shall move on to that in a moment. when he looked at the settlement for Norfolk he thought Some areas have not been mentioned in the debate, it must have been a mistake. I suggest, however, that it but they face severe cuts, and some local authorities, was not an unintentional mistake, that there is clear such as Cambridgeshire and Hartlepool, are threatening intent by the Government to impose cuts that the to withdraw funding from all supported bus services. Opposition believe go too far too fast, and that real, My hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham lasting damage will be caused to communities. (Pat Glass) set out some of the problems in her area. Elsewhere in the north, Teesdale faces the prospect of Mr Andrew Turner: I understand what the hon. having no buses at all from Christmas. That will be Gentleman says, but he must not conclude from our devastating for those affected, who often rely on buses criticism on one issue that we would criticise on others. as their only way to get around, be it for work or leisure, I would like to see where he would make cuts in place of or to get the basic essentials. We have heard different those areas in which he wants us to get some balance. perspectives on what the solution should be for such 41WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 42WH areas, and I ask the Minister to say more about the could be a change or a threat to the free bus pass for the transport and services that we as a country are prepared over-60s as installed by the Labour Government. Now to support. we see Government Members queuing up to say that it is wrong and should go. Guy Opperman: I have been listening very closely to the past eight minutes of the hon. Gentleman’s speech. Brandon Lewis: I am sorry to take up more time, and Prior to that, we were having a cross-party debate in I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s generosity in giving which all Members agreed that things could be done. I way. accept that we are in an age of austerity and that I want to make it clear that I did not hear a single individual councils, whatever their political make-up, Member talk about getting rid of concessionary bus have to make big decisions and face difficult problems. passes. We should get that on the record. The bear trap Thus far, however, the shadow Minister has solely addressed was mentioned particularly with reference to the structure the lack of funding—which is, of course, a difficult and style of financing for the transport subsidies that issue—but he has not said what he would do on behalf go across bus services. The concessionary transport of the Opposition. That is what I would like to hear, issue requires a wider debate, but not a single Member perhaps in relation to comments made by my hon. here made the statement that the hon. Gentleman has Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon just attributed to us. Lewis) and other Members. John Woodcock: I say to the hon. Gentleman and to John Woodcock: In that case, I am delighted that the other hon. Members who have stayed to the end of the hon. Gentleman will be sticking around in the debate. debate that a free bus pass is a free bus pass and a There is a debate about what kind of transport service promise is a promise. There are other areas where we should have. I understand the point made by the promises have clearly been made and immediately broken. hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) before he If the hon. Gentleman wants to go out to the country had to leave about “use it or lose it”, but equally, the and say, “Yes, we did promise that this would remain point has been made that some rural areas will never free to the over-60s, but that is no longer going to be the experience the mass usage of public transport seen in case. When we accused our opponents of lying when more urban or built-up areas. We should not say as a they said that we wanted or were threatening to take country that because some services are not frequently away the free bus pass, that was all just a smokescreen filled to the brim, we should be prepared to remove and the sort of thing that you say before elections, and them. We want greater focus on dial-a-ride schemes actually we were planning to do that all along because it such as those mentioned today, and we must find does not make sense,” I will welcome his being honest alternatives to running large buses that are never full and doing that. Let us see how he gets on in his through rural communities—such a system is not constituency. satisfactory on cost grounds because, as the commercial operators of those companies say, the cost per passenger Brandon Lewis: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? is often sky high. Neither does it satisfy us on environmental grounds, so we must be bold in enabling communities to John Woodcock: No, I will not give way again, because look at alternatives. I said that I wanted to give the Minister time to reply. I One key area that the Government should explore am trying to wrap up my contribution now. concerns empowering local authorities and handing I hope that the Minister will answer all the very greater control to local areas to fund and support the well-put points that have been made, many of which services they want. Funding and support from central were to be in my speech, but which I have not repeated Government are critical to that, and the scale of the because there is such consensus on some issues across cuts is having a devastating effect in some areas. There is the divide. Will the Minister guarantee that the free bus frustration in many parts of the country, be they rural pass for the over-60s will remain for the lifetime of this or urban, about the inability of local authorities to Parliament as both parties clearly guaranteed to the access all the disparate funding streams that go into British people before the election? supporting buses, and at the way that services are contracted. In areas such as Barrow and Furness, some services 12.12 pm within the town and elsewhere are commercially viable, while others require support. It is time to look again at The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport how we are forced to contract out those services and (Norman Baker): I think the hon. Gentleman means cannot mix up the provision and procurement that three parties. currently goes to private providers. When the Minister Mr Scott, it is good to see you in the Chair, given rises to his feet, I would like to hear what he thinks of your transport expertise. We are delighted to have you our idea of integrated transport authorities, and about here. I thank the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth what can be done to enable swift moves towards that (Brandon Lewis), my coalition colleague, for raising the and give local communities more authority. issue of rural bus services and securing time to allow us We need to address the issue of free bus passes. I am to debate these important issues. There has been a very fascinated by the idea that that was a bear trap left by good turnout. I welcome that. It is helpful for Members the previous Government—the idea is that new Ministers of Parliament to make it clear that they do value bus have fallen into it and been trapped—because I am sure services and, in particular, rural bus services. The tone that before the election I heard the Leader of the of the debate has been positive and constructive. Hon. Opposition, now the Prime Minister, accusing his Labour Members made a number of very good points, which I opponents of lying when they suggested that there will try to respond to in the time available. 43WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 44WH

[Norman Baker] Norman Baker: I am saying what I was told by the Confederation of Passenger Transport. Immediately I know from my own constituency that buses are a after the spending review, it indicated that in general lifeline for many people in rural areas, providing access terms it felt able to absorb the reduction in BSOG to jobs, schools, health care and social activities. Good without an effect on services or fares. That is what it bus services contribute to both the Government’s key said. I am happy to provide the quote if the hon. transport priorities: creating growth and cutting carbon. Gentleman wants to see it. By providing an attractive alternative to the car, we can It should also be recognised that, even in places such not only cut carbon but, at the same time, unclog the as Norfolk, about two thirds of journeys are on commercial congestion that can choke off local economies. That services and are therefore unaffected by what local applies particularly to towns. authorities decide in relation to their own budgets. We are committed to reducing the budget deficit, as Let me turn now to concessionary travel and say first has been said and as hon. Members have accepted very plainly that, even in these times of austerity measures, across the Chamber today. Every sector has to play its the coalition Government are firmly committed to part. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Barrow protecting the concessionary bus travel scheme. That and Furness (John Woodcock), will remember that the was made clear in the coalition agreement, and the Labour party was committed to £44 billion of cuts as Chancellor of the Exchequer reconfirmed that commitment well. We must recognise that every sector has to play its in the spending review. The scheme is of huge benefit to part. However, we have a duty to pay particular attention about 11.5 million people, allowing free off-peak travel to those who are most reliant on buses, such as the anywhere in England. That generous concession provides people referred to by the hon. Member for south-west older and disabled people with greater freedom, Durham— independence and a lifeline to their community. It enables access to facilities both within and outside their local Pat Glass: North West Durham. area and helps them to keep in touch with family and Norman Baker: North West Durham. Well, I am sure friends. Travel to visit popular tourist destinations can that there are some people in south-west Durham with also bring benefits to the wider economy. similar issues. The Government are aware of how precious the Central to all this is our commitment, as part of the benefit is to older and disabled people, which is why we comprehensive spending review, to continue our financial are focusing our efforts on assisting local authorities to subsidy of bus operators. Bus service operators grant find efficiencies through reforms to administrative remains untouched for this financial year. Notice of arrangements for the scheme, rather than cutting back 18 months or thereabouts was given of the changes. The on the entitlement. For the avoidance of doubt, the free 20% savings are to be introduced from next April. That bus pass is here to stay. 20% reduction represents a good deal for bus operators and passengers when compared with reductions to budgets Mr Andrew Turner: My hon. Friend is quite correct in elsewhere. Although it will inevitably have some effect what he quotes. I fell into the bear trap that the Labour on fares and services, I have been assured by operators party left for me, and so did my right hon. Friend the that that will be only at the margins. Indeed, after the Prime Minister, as far as I can see. spending review decision was announced, the industry said that it felt able to absorb the reduction in bus John Woodcock: We gave these people free bus travel. service operators grant without raising fares or cutting services. Mr Turner: I was wrong to support the scheme, but I supported it and I will support it for the rest of this Pat Glass: With respect, we are not talking about the Parliament. What happens then is a matter that we will change to bus service operators grant. That is yet to have to debate and develop. come. We are talking about the impact of the cuts to local authority budgets. The situation is bad enough, Norman Baker: I can say to my hon. Friend to be but next year it will get far worse with the change to bus helpful that a number of well-meaning people who are service operators grant. very committed to bus services have raised similar points to the one that he has raised. Those points have been Norman Baker: If I am allowed to make some progress, noted and passed both to the Department for Transport I will of course address that point. I am trying to and elsewhere in Government. However, we are clear structure my response. The hon. Member for Great about the commitment that we have made to the free Yarmouth, whose debate it is, referred to these issues: bus pass, and that is not going to change. bus service operators grant, local tendered services, I should at this stage pick up a point made by the support from local authorities and concessionary fares. hon. Member for Great Yarmouth about trying to save I will deal with each of those in my remarks. The point money on administration in relation to the bus pass. that I am making on the first one is that it is not an issue That is right. We need to consider those types of savings. that should concern hon. Members, because the bus That is one reason why we were supportive of the idea operators themselves have said that the reduction can of moving the administration from districts to counties, be absorbed. Therefore, BSOG is not a problem in which saves considerable costs in the administration of terms of the level of services provided. the bus pass. John Woodcock: Just to be clear, is the Minister Only one small change has been made to the entitlement saying that he is clear that there will be no further to concessionary fares: the age of eligibility has been reductions in services as a result of the reduction in increased in line with the changes taking place to the BSOG next year? state pension age. That is right, as people are living 45WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 46WH longer, staying healthy longer and tending to stay in DCLG to be sufficient to enable local authorities to work until later in life. That change started in April deliver effective local services, while ensuring that authorities 2010, just before the last general election, so local do not set excessive council tax increases. Councils now authorities are already making savings as a result. The have another opportunity to make their voices heard. change will assist with the financial sustainability of the DCLG is currently consulting on the broad options for scheme, while reserving the benefits of the bus pass for a new way of funding local government, based on those with the greater need. business rates retention. What has not changed at all—this is an important The Government are clear that any changes must point—is that operators should only be reimbursed for protect the interests of local taxpayers and the vulnerable, concessionary bus travel on a no better, no worse-off be fair for all councils and encourage growth. Councils basis. That is in primary legislation introduced by the that are more deprived—I accept the point that has previous Government. Nothing that this Government been made about the definition of deprivation—will have done has changed that at all. Almost a year ago, continue to receive central Government support. We the Department for Transport published revised guidance recognise, however, that it may be possible to improve to local authorities to support them in determining the way in which local council spending on concessionary their arrangements with bus companies, to make sure travel reimbursement is treated in allocating local that they are no better and no worse off. I made that government resources. That is why, following my meeting clear in my recent letter to the hon. Member for North in April with the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth, my West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) and my hon. Friend the hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), both of Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson), my hon. Friend whom came to see me to talk about bus services in the the Member for Norwich South (Simon Wright), and county. the hon. Members for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth In a report published in May, the Competition Truss) and for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), I wrote Commission strongly commended the guidance issued to the Minister for Housing and Local Government on by my Department, since it helps local authorities to 20 July about the way in which formula grant is calculated, take account of the impacts that the concessionary the relative needs formula for concessionary travel, the travel scheme can have on commercial pricing policies. so-called floor-damping mechanism, and the local The commission says that it hopes that the guidance government resource review. That is why the consultation will be followed to the greatest extent possible. In fact, considers whether to review the relative needs formulae the majority of local authorities are now using the for concessionary travel when establishing the baseline guidance and should be reaping the financial benefits of for local government funding from 2013-14 onwards. taking it on board. I stress, however, that it is entirely a matter for them whether they use the guidance or not. Sarah Newton: I welcome the review of local government There is no compulsion to do so. The only compulsion funding formulae. One area of reimbursement that the is the one that existed in legislation introduced by the Minister has not mentioned, and on which I hope he previous Government to ensure that bus companies are will give an assurance, relates to parts of the country no better and no worse off from operating the concessionary that welcome lots of tourists but are not, at the moment, fares scheme. The guidance can be a useful starting reimbursed for the cost of honouring concessionary point for negotiation between bus operators and local fares. Can he assure us that the review will consider authorities and, so far this year, more than half of the that? appeals lodged by operators have been withdrawn—a significant improvement on previous years. Norman Baker: I can only give an assurance that, I remind Members that our funding for bus travel first, that point was made to me in a meeting with does not stop at concessionary travel reimbursement Norfolk MPs, and secondly, that it has been reflected in and bus operator subsidy. We have also provided almost comments that I have passed on to DCLG. I am happy £47 million to local transport authorities and bus operators to share the reply that I received from the Minister for to purchase 542 low-carbon buses across England, through Housing and Local Government. He confirmed that he our green bus fund. I would also like to refer to our new had received the letter and that, in his view, the new £560 million local sustainable transport fund, which business rate retention system is likely to address Norfolk’s this Government have introduced. There have been concerns. That was the official response from DCLG 39 successful bids in tranche 1, 25 of which have included and the Minister thinks that that is part of the answer. bus-based elements to help bus travel locally. There is recognition, at least, from DCLG that Members Turning to the third element, I recognise that the in Norfolk have a legitimate concern about the matter, recent local authority settlement has been challenging. and it is therefore being factored, I think, into the There is no doubt about that. I have heard the argument Department’s thinking. that the distribution method used at the time does not Let me now turn to reductions in tendered bus services, reflect the particular circumstances facing each local which in England comprise about 22% of bus services, council. That has been brought into sharp relief now while the rest are commercially provided. As I have said, that, since April, all funding for the statutory concessionary the recent local government finance settlement has been travel scheme has been provided as part of the settlement challenging, but I am still disappointed that in some from the Department for Communities and Local areas local councils have responded by taking the axe to Government. I should point out, however, that last local bus services in a rather unimaginative way. This summer’s consultation by that Department provided an hits particularly hard in rural areas where supported opportunity to influence the final distribution method services make up a higher share of the total than in for the first two years of the spending review period. metropolitan areas. I am naturally concerned when I The overall level of funding then set was deemed by hear that vulnerable people with few other transport 47WH Rural Bus Services11 OCTOBER 2011 Rural Bus Services 48WH

[Norman Baker] group, which integrates school transport in the mornings and afternoons with a scheduled timetable open to the choices have lost their only bus service, or that children public in between. I think that that is the sort of have reduced public transport access to the school of initiative that the Member for Great Yarmouth was their choice. It would seem that there is also an impact suggesting might be applied more widely. on people’s love lives and on cats, but perhaps I should On community transport eligibility, as I have mentioned, keep away from cats. section 22 services qualify. Section 19 services do not, Some councils, such as Cambridgeshire, have because the Department has long held the view that, unfortunately taken an almost slash-and-burn approach because they are on-demand services and available only to bus services, while others, such as East Riding, where to specific groups of people, it would not be fair to the percentage cuts are in single figures, have been much extend concessionary fare eligibility to them. It could more considerate and careful in their decisions. There is also undermine existing tendered or commercial services. therefore a big difference—this is part of localism—between They qualify, however, for bus service operators grants, the responses of individual councils. People are now so there is support. empowered to ask why their council has made cuts in I am conscious of the time, but let me pick up one or their area when similar cuts have not been made across two of the points that have been raised. The hon. the border. I hope that people will start picking up on Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) made a point these differences and challenge their councillors accordingly. about integration across counties. Local authorities have That is part of the answer to the point that the hon. powers to work together with operators of commercial Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) made services across boundaries to integrate timetables. That about North Yorkshire, because the position in North is done in some areas, such as Oxford and Sheffield, so Yorkshire is very different from that in, for example, the powers are there and were, in fact, reinforced in the East Riding. Local Transport Act 2008. It is up to local authorities I was encouraged to read in a recent press release by to use the powers that they have. There are no quality Norfolk council that it has been able to make significant contracts in place at the moment. The legislation exists savings this year with to allow them to be formed. There are statutory quality “very little disruption to bus services.” partnerships, which is perhaps what the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness was discussing. If local authorities Another example is Dorset, which I understand is making want to avail themselves of the powers in the 2008 Act, savings of up to £1 million this year through an innovative they can do so. Some of the legislation is slightly procurement model. That is something that I am examining complicated. In fact, when I was in opposition, I wanted to see whether there are lessons that can be rolled out to to go further, in line with some of the comments made other councils throughout the country. by Government Members during today’s debate, but I am interested in the point made by the hon. Member that did not find favour with the previous Government. for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) about feeder The Competition Commission has produced this week services in Shropshire. Section 22 community transport its provisional remedies for the bus market. The Department services can qualify for concessionary travel, so it is for Transport may need to look at those carefully. possible for them to be included in a proper arrangement Perhaps some solutions will help to address some of the for a planned bus network. issues that have been raised today. The hon. Member I am also keen that local authorities make the most for Hexham talked about more council control, which is efficient use of their resources, whether that means actually what the Competition Commission is suggesting, combining adult social care transport with patient and particularly in terms of multi-operator ticketing. school transport, or providing more flexible forms of The hon. Member for South West Norfolk raised the public transport in areas where commercial services are issue of rail-bus integration. not available. In Cheltenham, for example, Gloucestershire county council has replaced a costly subsidised bus Mr Lee Scott (in the Chair): Order. It is now time for service with a route operated by a community transport the next debate. 49WH 11 OCTOBER 2011 Education System (Dance) 50WH

Education System (Dance) arts organisations, based in each region of England, to create the first national network to support the local delivery of dance to young people. That was assessed to 12.30 pm be an inexpensive and efficient model, which other art Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab): There are forms were encouraged to adopt. Over three years, with few opportunities in the House to debate dance and I a public investment of £5.5 million—that equated to am delighted to have secured a debate on such an 58p per school-aged child in England—390,425 young important topic. I have had a lifelong interest in dance, people participated in programmes at national and although only as an audience member. My right hon. regional level. I am sorry to be so precise, but the figures Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald are important. There were 1,889 performances and Kaufman) and I formed the all-party group on dance 376,133 people attended them; 15% of English schools some years ago, to support the dance industry. took part in U.Dance, a programme to increase the number of dance performances. In comparison, over The UK education system is a world leader in defining the same period, investment in music education was dance as a subject for study: its history, genres, choreography, £38 per school-aged child. aesthetics, politics and relationship to other art forms. In most schools it is taught within physical education, Most of our dance companies do outreach work in but it is unique because it develops both artistic and schools. Internationally known organisations such as physical skills. Dance has an important role to play in the Royal Ballet, English National Ballet, Birmingham getting young people physically active. It appeals to a Royal Ballet, Ballet Rambert and many others reach large number of young people as an activity, including thousands of school children every year, bringing a those who do not enjoy competitive sports and who professional insight to the education system and therefore try to avoid PE in schools. encouraging, supporting and raising the sights of countless students. For most students, dance is an activity that The Youth Sport Trust audit of dance in English they will enjoy and benefit from. Others see dance as a schools and the audit carried out by school dance career. That used to be difficult, but the Dance and co-ordinators of the schools in their areas show a high Drama Awards scheme, introduced in 1999, has opened number of schools providing dance in England and up possibilities for many more young people. Those Wales. Nearly all—90%—of secondary schools provide awards offer annual scholarships to exceptionally talented dance of some form in the curriculum. Even very young performing arts students studying at some of the country’s children understand the power of dance to express what leading providers of vocational training in dance, drama, we think and how we feel. Studies have shown that musical theatre and technical theatre. dance can make a huge difference to a child’s overall performance at school, as well as developing skills to DaDAs offer reduced tuition fees and assistance with help them to communicate better, work as a team living expenses for a two or three-year course and are member, analyse further and imagine more. A physical funded by the Government through the Young People’s education, school sport and club links scheme survey Learning Agency.The performing arts industry contributes shows that in England dance is second only to football more than £3.5 billion annually to the British economy, as the most popular physical activity for young people. and students graduating from DaDA-funded courses The “Dance in Scotland”report published by the Federation comprise a high percentage of all new entrants to the of Scottish Theatre in August 2011 states that more British performing arts industry. people in Scotland dance than play football. That may have something to do with my country’s inability to Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): I qualify for international tournaments. should perhaps mention that my son is a professional Participation in dance activity in schools is positive, dancer, although he did not qualify for a DaDA. Does because dance encourages young people to take part in my hon. Friend have worries about the longevity and and sustain physical activity—even those of us who do the effect, if DaDAs are not there in the years to come, not enjoy competitive sport. That can help to tackle on people moving into professional dance? issues of obesity and other health problems. Dance has particular appeal to people who may not readily engage Mr Doran: That is a worry, but we welcomed the with traditional competitive sports, such as young women continuation of the scheme by the Government last and some cultural and ethnic groups. Dance is the most year. We know that it is under review, and hope that it popular PE activity for girls. As most girls stop doing will continue. That is one point that I wanted to make. any physical activity after the age of 18, dance offers the When the scheme was continued, that reinforced the greatest chance to engage women in lifelong fitness. view that investment in dance is money well spent. The Identifying exceptionally talented young dancers at school quality and depth of talent in the British entertainment will help to develop a highly skilled workforce, from industry in every discipline is the envy of the world. The diverse backgrounds, supplying the UK’s world-renowned economic benefits are clear, and the reputational benefits performing arts industry, which contributes more than to the country are immense. Economic and cultural £3.5 billion annually to the British economy. priorities make it imperative that the cost-effective benefits The work done in schools is supplemented by dance of DaDAs should be maintained and should remain in organisations across the country. Youth Dance England line with new funding arrangements for higher and is the national organisation that champions excellence further education, which come into effect in 2012. in dance for and with young people. In a recently Those are the positives, and they are very significant. published report on its performance over the past three Dance is an activity that has benefits across a very wide years, YDE was shown to have made a remarkable spectrum. For every age group it has health benefits. It impact on young people’s dance across the country. It encourages people who might otherwise be shy of engaging worked in a unique way with nine leading dance and in exercise or sports to take exercise. It teaches children 51WH Education System (Dance)11 OCTOBER 2011 Education System (Dance) 52WH

[Mr Doran] Mr Doran: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Two key elements of dance—we see them not just in discipline and how to work in a team. It raises their performances or the way dance is tutored in school; self-esteem and improves their confidence and motivation. there are many areas where they are crucial—are discipline At the top end, professional dancers help to contribute and teamwork. The Home Office has been looking at to the growing reputation of the British entertainment dance as a way to help to reform the behaviour of industry and its massive contribution to the economy, prisoners, for example. Many children with severe learning as well as to our image as a country in the rest of the difficulties or other problems are going into dance world. In particular in the London area, but throughout courses. Learning about teamwork and discipline is the country, there has been an explosion in the number extremely important. of musicals: I treat my right hon. Friend the Member The Secretary of State and I were educated in the for Manchester, Gorton as the world expert on those same education system, in Scotland. In fact, the school matters. that he went to is in my constituency. I knew him well However, there are also negatives. Recently, the Minister before he became the Secretary of State—even before for Universities and Science made remarks suggesting he wrote for The Times. He knows that one strength of that dance and other subjects were soft options for that system, and it has been for centuries, is the belief university entrance and should not be treated on the that every child should be given the broadest possible same level as other more serious subjects. Those comments education, covering the humanities, technical subjects echoed remarks made by the Secretary of State for and the arts. In the Scottish system, children study a Education in opposition and in Government, and they much wider range of subjects, but not to the same depth are, to say the least, troubling, particularly to a dance as in the A-level system in England. That comes later, at industry that has worked incredibly hard to get to the university. The aims are to avoid too narrow an education position it is in today. The view of Ministers is misguided and to produce a more rounded adult. What we all want and shows a lack of understanding of the benefits of to see produced by our education system is those rounded dance and dance training. It seems to me that behind citizens: people who have knowledge and skills, rigour those comments is a very old-fashioned view of what and discipline, and the ability to think creatively instilled subjects are suitable for academic study—that there are in them, and who have the flexibility to cope with serious subjects that are worthy of study and support, changes in the modern workplace. and others that are seen as soft, easy and not to be Dance is not a soft option for students. Studying taken seriously. I do not think that the Government dance can provide a child with substantial personal should put dance in that category—if any discipline assets, which will prepare that child for his or her future should be in it at all. in a complex world. I hope that the Secretary of State, With the help of Dance UK, the industry body that the Minister and the Minister for Universities and has been central to much of the progress made in the Science will put aside their preconceptions about dance industry in the past few years, I gathered a range of and take the trouble to see for themselves how dance comments on those ministerial views. Most showed the training operates and what it achieves, and the progress reaction that might be expected when hard-working that children, including many with difficulties, can make. professionals feel that the work they do and their students’ aspirations are being undermined or not taken seriously. I can recommend one local authority that would be However, the comments that I think best express the worth a visit: the London borough of Havering, where reaction of dance professionals came from Andrea Martin, the Conservative-controlled council has initiated a head of dance at the College of Richard Collyer, Horsham: programme of dance across all its schools and is reaping “Mr Gove’s comments are essentially insulting to both teachers tremendous benefits as a result. That excellent example of A-level dance and the young people who study it. I teach is worth examining. Ministers will find that dance is not students who are taking four and sometimes five A levels, including a soft option, but rather a key element in training any subjects such as English, maths, further maths, biology, chemistry, child for adulthood. law, history etc. Without exception, I am told by my students that dance is one of the most challenging, if not the most challenging, of their subjects. It demands creativity, physical discipline and 12.43 pm academic rigour. The multi-faceted nature of the A-level dance course necessitates the development of vital life skills—time Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I am pleased to be management, collaborative working, problem solving and critical able to speak briefly in the debate, and I congratulate thinking. The A2 dance written exam is a two-hour paper requiring my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North students to write three essays using skills of critical analysis, (Mr Doran) on securing it. He spelled out clearly and historical contextualisation and knowledge of human anatomy powerfully the case for dance, both in the curriculum and physiology.” and in the life of our nation, and how it contributes She asks a valid question: culturally and economically to the United Kingdom. “A soft option?” In the Scunthorpe area that I represent, dance has It clearly is not a soft option, and it is important that always been popular. There is a long tradition of dance Ministers pay more attention to dance and try to get being part of the local community. That is down to the some direct hands-on experience. contribution of many people in the community, including Gordon Banks: There is academic content not only in local dance schools and dance teachers, such as Kay A-level dance, but in higher education training and Travis, who, even now in her 80s, continues to inspire degree courses in dance. That content does not stop young people by encouraging them to participate in once someone leaves school. If someone goes into dance. Having been principal of John Leggett college professional dance training, there is an academic in Scunthorpe, I concur with the points made by my responsibility. I hope that my hon. Friend thinks that hon. Friend about the rigour of the dance curriculum at the Minister should take account of that as well. A-level and his quote from the head of dance at the 53WH Education System (Dance)11 OCTOBER 2011 Education System (Dance) 54WH college of Richard Collyer. I saw the cracking work report and our response to that will be published later done by Bridget Jacques and Shelley Lee, dance teachers in the autumn. Dance has an important place in schools at John Leggett, to bring the best out of the young and I am confident that that will continue. people who participated in dance. Those young people have gone on to contribute in all walks of life. Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Does the It is naïve for certain currents of thought within the Minister accept that by introducing the English Government to believe that dance is in any way a soft Baccalaureate, which introduces a hierarchy of subjects option. It is not, and I hope that the Minister will take and excludes subjects such as dance and drama, and by the opportunity today to dispel those myths. Dance is a cutting quotas for drama teachers for universities such demanding and challenging subject at GCSE and A-level. as Durham, the Government are placing dance and As I visited many schools in the past couple of weeks in drama in a serious situation in the future? my constituency, I saw dance being part of the curriculum at primary and secondary levels and the fantastic work that teachers were doing with young people. There are Mr Gibb: I do not accept that argument. I will come new facilities in schools, such as the Melior community to talk about the English Baccalaureate in a moment. college, built under Building Schools for the Future. The E-bac has always been kept at a small enough range Fantastic dance facilities are being used to good value. I of important, facilitating subjects to allow scope within was pleased to be at the opening of the new events the school curriculum timetable for students to take a centre at North Lindsey college in my constituency, wider range of subjects, such as vocational ones, music, when students on the BTEC dance course gave a fantastic art and economics. presentation to the people there. We know from previous surveys that dance remains I am pleased to support briefly my hon. Friend the the second most popular activity, after football, among Member for Aberdeen North in the argument that he young people. However, something that interested me, has made so clearly and cogently today—the argument and probably many other people, was the statistic about for dance in the curriculum, for recognising its rigour, Scotland that the hon. Member for Aberdeen North and for recognising the contribution that it makes to the mentioned. Perhaps it is the prevalence of Scottish UK’s cultural life and economy. dancing that is the key there. It is true also that 97% of all schools provide dancing activity. The popularity of dance is not limited to primary schools, where dance 12.46 pm is a compulsory element of the current PE national curriculum; it is also a feature of secondary school The Minister of State, Department for Education education, where it is optional. (Mr Nick Gibb): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) on securing As we set out in our White Paper “The Importance of this important debate. I know that he is a strong advocate Teaching”, we are embarking on a new era of freedom for dance and for the promotion of dance for its health for schools—freedom from unnecessary bureaucracy and social benefits and educational value. He pointed and from an overly prescriptive national curriculum. to the creativity and physical discipline involved in The review of the national curriculum was launched in learning to dance, and, for some dancers, teamwork. January and is being conducted in two phases. Phase Dance is important to the cultural life of a country, one will focus on the overall shape and nature of the and it is enjoyed by performers and audiences alike, be new national curriculum and will also consider new it classical, traditional or contemporary. Dance has programmes of study for English, mathematics, the something to offer to people of all ages, and if the sciences and physical education. Those subjects will popularity of “Strictly Come Dancing” is anything to continue to be compulsory in all four key stages. The go by, it is never too late to learn to dance. I just wish programmes of study will be finalised in autumn 2012, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham with first teaching in schools from September 2013. (Vince Cable), or indeed the former Member for Maidstone Central to the Government’s educational philosophy and The Weald, Ann Widdecombe, were here today; is the view that not all that is good must be centrally they could certainly contribute to the debate. It is also mandated or managed. We believe that the new curriculum never too early to start to dance. Young children have a will allow schools greater freedom to teach beyond natural instinct for movement to music, and that should what children should be expected to know in core be encouraged along their path to adulthood. The hon. subjects. We are looking to create more room for excellent Member for Aberdeen North also alluded to that in his innovative teaching and curriculum design. We want opening remarks. more time available for teaching in areas such as dance, The Government believe that every child should and the ability to create a broad and balanced school experience a wide variety of high-quality cultural curriculum to meet pupils’ needs. experiences, including dance. In April, we commissioned The hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat an independent review of cultural education led by Glass) has already raised the issue of the English Darren Henley, managing director of Classic FM, who baccalaureate and her unease that dance is not included also led the review of music education. Mr Henley will within its subjects. Although the English baccalaureate be reporting on how we can realise the ambition of will give pupils the opportunity to study a core of giving high-quality cultural experiences to our children academic subjects, it does not mean that we wish to while ensuring the best use of public money. That will restrict their choices or opportunities for wider study include experiences within and outside the school day. I and the core of subjects is small enough to allow for know that the main cultural groups have not only that. We know that study in other subjects will be just as responded to the call for evidence, but taken the opportunity valuable to pupils, depending on what they go on to to meet Darren Henley to contribute to the review. His do after 16. 55WH Education System (Dance)11 OCTOBER 2011 Education System (Dance) 56WH

Nic Dakin: Will the Minister accept that a relatively The scheme represents the top of the pyramid for wide English bac will have a natural impact on the performing arts education and training and is the nature and number of minority subjects that any school Government’s main vehicle for funding the training can provide on its curriculum in key stage 4? needs of exceptionally talented young dancers and musicians. Although small—the scheme is funded at Mr Gibb: The hon. Gentleman raises a good point. If £29.5 million this year—the scheme, its beneficiaries, its we go through the English baccalaureate subjects—English, participating organisations and its patrons have a significant maths, science, one of the two humanities and a modern impact on the performing arts world. Although we have foreign language—all of them, apart from a modern not made a formal evaluation, we know that MDS-aided foreign language and a humanity, are already compulsory pupils go on to become leading members of their profession to 16. We are talking about two GCSEs: history or in ballet and dance companies at home and abroad, geography, and a modern foreign language. Modern some as soloists with international recognition and foreign languages were compulsory until 2004, and renown, such as prima ballerinas Darcey Bussell and there is a body of opinion that says that they should be Lauren Cuthbertson. Royal Ballet School students regularly made compulsory again. The debate is about history win major competitions such as young British dancer of and geography, and there has been a significant decline the year and the Lausanne international ballet competition in those subjects over recent years, which is a cause for in Switzerland. concern. None the less, if we add up all those GCSE In September, when I visited White Lodge, the Royal subjects and add on a humanity, it is still small enough Ballet school, I could see that the standard of our for pupils to study one, two or three more GCSEs young dancers is world class. beyond those core academic subjects, depending on which combination of those subjects they take. That is Mr Doran: Before the Minister finishes his speech, I right because the Russell group universities and others would be grateful if he addressed the main thrust of my say that those subjects are the facilitating subjects that contribution: why do the Secretary of State and the keep options open for young people to make decisions Minister for Universities and Science suggest that the about their career choices later in life. International status of a dance A-level will not be the same as other evidence has shown that countries around the world in A-levels? Why do they suggest that it should be downgraded high-performing jurisdictions are delaying young people and seen as a soft subject when it comes to university from making decisions over career choices. They keep admission? options open for longer so that young people can make the right choices. Mr Gibb: As I have heard the Secretary of State and the Minister for Universities and Science say on numerous Pat Glass: Clearly, if the Minister and the people occasions, it depends what the young person intends to around him feel that that is possible within key stage 4, study and what they want to go on to do. The tragedy is they have never put together such a timetable. Moving that there are young people who wish to go to a university back to dance, is the Minister aware that the highest to study a particular subject but they have the wrong increase in dance, movement and drama is among combination of subjects to help them obtain a place at disaffected young girls who have a history of non- that university to study that subject. That is what the attendance? Given the Government’s view about the Minister is seeking to address. He wants to ensure that importance of behaviour and attendance, surely there is young people have the right advice on the right combination a good argument for including dance and drama at key of subjects. That was alluded to not only by the Minister stage 4 as a core subject. but by organisations such as the Sutton Trust, which is concerned that too many able children from poorer Mr Gibb: The hon. Lady makes a good point, and I backgrounds are choosing the wrong combination of do not disagree with anything that she has said. At the A-levels, thus narrowing their range of options for moment, about 2.5% of the cohort are taking GCSE universities and beyond. dance. I do not see why those figures will not continue, even with the popularity of the E-bac as a concept. I do Mr Doran: That sounds like the Minister is suggesting not believe that the introduction of the new performance a disincentive to study dance. measure will have dire consequences for those selecting Mr Gibb: A dance A-level may well be right, and dance GCSE, any more than it will for those choosing probably is right, for students who wish to take an other subjects that are not included in the E-bac arts-related subject at university, but it could be wrong combination. for someone who wishes to study a science at university. When young people choose their GCSE subjects at Two science A-levels and dance may not be the right key stage 4, it is important that they base their choices combination for many universities offering science degrees. on what they need to progress. We recognise the wider There are examples of young people taking the wrong benefits that studying subjects such as dance can bring. combination to enhance their chances of getting on All pupils should be encouraged to study non-E-bac those competitive courses. subjects alongside the core English baccalaureate to We remain committed to supporting talented young benefit from a well-rounded education. people and adults in accessing specialist dance and To encourage talented young dancers, I am pleased to drama provision, with national grants also being available say that the Government maintain their support for for out-of-school-hours training through 21 designated low-income families through the music and dance scheme. centres for advanced training. 57WH 11 OCTOBER 2011 Marine Operations (Weymouth) 58WH

Marine Operations (Weymouth) expansion. Plans for further major marine-based operations, including ship repairing and refuelling, and servicing of the proposed giant wind farm off the Isle of Wight, are 1pm under way. Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): Thank you very Five potential sites are identified in that bid and much indeed, Mr Scott, for calling me to speak. It is a details of them are attached to the report in the appendices. privilege to be here in Westminster Hall under your Three sites are in suitable existing buildings that are chairmanship. I also thank the Minister for being here available immediately, saving on new build costs. As the today; it is a privilege and an honour to see him here Minister knows, the Solent MOC will require an entirely too. new build and in these austere times I say to him that Last week, the people of South Dorset delivered a surely there are savings to be made by locating in an petition to No. 10. “Save Our Lifesavers” was signed by existing building rather than having to build a new 22,000 people, signalling their overwhelming concern facility. about the regrettable decision to close Portland coastguard We—South Dorset—have a magnificent former flag station. No other subject has galvanised such a reaction officers’ sea-training building, which was specifically in my constituency in recent years. I would be very designed as a command and control centre. The Minister interested to hear whether the Minister has encountered can see details of that building at appendix 3. It would such commitment from the Solent area, which I believe need only refurbishment. It sits in the harbour, providing is the area favoured for the new MOC, or marine easy access to the open sea, berths and cliffs for training operations centre. and operations. Other potential MOC sites include the South Dorset is bounded on 180° by the ocean. That former defence research agency at Southwell business water forms an indelible part of our history, culture and park on Portland, which I know he knows well, and everyday experience. Fishermen, divers, sailors, mariners, Pullman Court in Dorchester. South Dorset has good water skiers, day-boaters, cliff-walkers, birdwatchers, roads, twice-hourly rail services to London, four airports rock climbers—we all share that coastline, and as anyone within a 90-minute drive and ferry services to the continent. who knows the sea will testify, it must be treated with In addition, our recently enhanced broadband and respect. On land, as the emergency services will confirm, communication links, which are part of South Dorset’s the “golden hour” is critical in the rescue of casualties; Olympic legacy, can carry the MCA’s new integrated in the water, that period is down to seconds. and networked service. Our coastguard station is one of the busiest in the Secondly, we have the expertise. There is a strong country. Currently, it is one of 18 coastguard stations local skills base in marine engineering, dating from tasked with protecting our waters, but after the Olympics Portland’s recent history as an operational naval base. it is due to close, with staff being offered posts at the A MOC sited in the area would tap into a rich vein of new MOC, which might be at Solent. That new MOC, maritime knowledge and experience. The harbour at supported by nine 24-hour sub-centres, will undertake Portland is already home to the search and rescue all the essential tasks of the Maritime and Coastguard helicopter that would enhance any MOC. Also, we Agency around our 11,000 nautical miles of coastline. already host the full complement of RNLI rescue services: Does the Minister accept that that will leave huge gaps the Severn class offshore lifeboat, the Atlantic inshore in our defences? lifeboat, rescue craft and beach lifeguards. Furthermore, RNLI headquarters is nearby in Poole. For South Dorset, the loss of accumulated years of Portland port has existing relations with the Royal expertise, knowledge and good will is nothing short of Navy, the Fleet Auxiliary, the Royal Marines, special catastrophic. However, in the face of a deeply regrettable forces, the Department for Transport, the Department and seemingly irreversible decision, we are determined for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and many to move on. We are nothing if not resilient. other organisations, and the National Sailing Academy The MCA has stated: is based in the port at Osprey quay. In addition to the “There is no existing Coastguard facility on the south coast Olympics, which take place next year, Portland holds suitable for conversion into a MOC.” world-class sailing regattas, which boost the use of our I disagree. I want to draw the Minister’s attention to a waters. significant proposal from Weymouth and Portland borough Thirdly, we have the will. Dorset is dedicated to council that the new MOC should be located in South saving its lifesavers, as the petition and all the love and Dorset. He has already seen that submission; indeed, I attention that have gone into the newspaper that the see that it is on his desk now. In addition, I have handed Minister has received demonstrate. Our proposal to site him a newspaper, which I also see he has with him, that the new MOC in South Dorset has the unqualified has been lovingly put together by the supporters of the backing of all Dorset MPs, including the Minister of petition, who feel so strongly about the issue. State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member South Dorset has the infrastructure, the expertise for West Dorset (Mr Letwin). Bournemouth and Poole and the will to make that proposal viable and cost-effective. unitary authorities, Dorset police, Dorset fire and rescue I will start by discussing infrastructure. The MCA service, Dorset county council and the Environment proposal refers to the advantages of locating any MOC Agency all support the proposal too. Weymouth and close to a large existing maritime sector. Weymouth and Portland borough council, the author of the proposal, Portland has one of the largest maritime sectors in the aims to develop the area as a centre for marine excellence, country. As a former naval base, Portland’s deep-water which is an aim entirely aligned with MCA objectives. port provides many built-in advantages. It is the closest In addition, the area can offer more affordable housing point in the western channel to the main shipping lanes than Hampshire, good schools and an enviable quality and is already in constant use as a busy commercial of life, and the borough council has undertaken to port. It has harbour revision order approval for significant provide dedicated staff to assist with relocation. 59WH Marine Operations (Weymouth)11 OCTOBER 2011 Marine Operations (Weymouth) 60WH

[Richard Drax] battalion headquarters,” because all the intimate detail at company headquarters is not necessarily passed to I have already mentioned the petition that was given battalion unless or until it is necessary to call in more to No. 10 Downing street. The community has spoken reserves or assets to deal with situations on the ground. loudly and clearly about a cause that is dear to its heart. Local people know their platoons—in this case, local I believe that the merits of the proposal—the infrastructure, watchkeepers know their area—and they make a difference. the expertise and the will that already exist in South We have to accept that we are losing our station, but we Dorset—deserve serious consideration and I ask the urge the Minister to site the new MOC in Weymouth or Minister to assure me that he will consider it. Can he Portland. give us any hope that he will do so? The MCA is a highly respected service that has Finally, I want to touch once more on the decision- evolved over 200 years to suit our island needs, so why making process that has brought us to this point. Wherever reinvent the wheel? Technology is not necessarily the the southern MOC is sited, we are told that the professional answer. I suspect that this has a lot to do with money, coastguards at Portland will all be offered jobs there. but money, or the lack of it, is not always the reason or Although that is good news, the ability of those coastguards the solution. The sea is unforgiving—the Minister and to report daily on the winds, tides and other conditions I know that, and the watchkeepers and the people who that are currently outside their windows will be lost. rescue know it—but the electorate will be more so. I The coves, caves and cliffs that locals know so intimately most humbly urge the Minister to reopen the consultation will be reduced to a grid reference on a computer and think again. screen. Some cynics call that process “rescue by Google” and I fear that it will not be adequate. 1.13 pm On a busy summer’s day, the calls will come in thick and fast. The minutiae involved in every rescue—the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport sheer volume of detail—could be overwhelming to an (Mike Penning): It is a pleasure to serve under your operator who is unfamiliar with the area. Inevitably, if chairmanship, Mr Scott. When we entered the House in delays occur rescues will take longer. I will not stand 2005 neither of us would have dreamt that I would be here and say that lives will be endangered, because I standing here as the Minister and you would be in the have no proof of that; it would be rash of me to say so. Chair. Inevitably, however, if rescues take longer and someone I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South is in the sea, where seconds count, one can see that the Dorset (Richard Drax) on initiating the debate. He consequence of that could be—I stress, could be—that served gallantly in the Coldstream Guards when I was a someone who might have been rescued more quickly humble guardsman in the grenadiers. I was moved by may possibly die. his question about whether we would get rid of the We are told that the hardened communications within company headquarters. As a humble guardsman who the operations supercentre will increase resilience and never commanded a section let alone anything else, I flexibility in a disaster, but are we not in danger of can say yes, we would have done so many a time, relying too heavily on the miracle of modern technology? because at my level we never understood what was We all know that technology breaks down; the NHS going on. supercomputer is an acknowledged failure. The disastrous Let me touch briefly on how we reached the current reorganisation—I know that the Minister is waiting for position, on where we are in the consultation process this line, and he was vociferously opposed—of the fire and on the decisions we have taken. I pay tribute to the and rescue service, of which he was a member, which community of South Dorset. I know that part of the was shelved at a cost of £500 million, uncomfortably world well, having spent most of my holidays as a mirrors, in my view and that of many others, the plans young child on the beaches of Durdle Door. I dive at for the coastguard. Lulworth now, although it is a bit too cold for me as I We are responsible for 1,250,000 nautical square miles get older, and South Dorset is still one of the most of water around our coastline, yet we are seriously beautiful parts of this great nation. considering halving the number of stations. Bournemouth, The community coming together to fight for what Dorset and Poole Local Resilience Forum is gravely they believe in is what community spirit is all about. In concerned that we are spreading responsibilities too the scrapbook that my hon. Friend gave me—I use thinly. “scrapbook” in its traditional sense; I do not mean that As a former soldier, the Minister knows only too well it was not a good thing to produce—I see so many press the importance of local co-ordination, and to explain it cuttings of rescues and lives being saved, and we are I shall use a Northern Ireland scenario with which he is going to enhance and invest in that volunteer part of familiar. He, like me, served in the Household Division, the coastguard. The RNLI, whose college in Poole I and knows that a company needs a company headquarters, visited recently, does amazing work, all funded by people’s a battalion a battalion headquarters and a division a gratitude to the institution. The RNLI covers the whole divisional headquarters. If the divisional headquarters of the island of Ireland and is the only organisation in is cluttered by information from the patrols on the the Republic that has “Royal” in its name. I have met ground—the platoons, of which there are many— three transport Ministers for southern Ireland, and they communication will be blocked by unnecessary minutiae. have paid tribute to the RNLI’s work. I want to emphasise the importance of local When I inherited this position nearly 16 months ago, co-ordination, with which the Minister is so familiar, there was a set of plans on my desk for a reorganisation because it is absolutely vital. No officer commanding of coastguard co-ordination centres. It had been around the regiments that the Minister and I served in would for years. It was there when the chief coastguard, Mr Rod say, “Get rid of company headquarters. We’ll just have Johnson, arrived, and he had been in post for nearly 61WH Marine Operations (Weymouth)11 OCTOBER 2011 Marine Operations (Weymouth) 62WH two years. I understand why the previous Minister, the Richard Drax: Bearing in mind that we have only hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) 10 minutes left, we all understand where we are in the is not here—it is a half-hour debate and I have debated history. The issue now is whether the Minister can offer the subject many times with him—but he freely admits any light on whether he will move the new MOC from that the proposals had been discussed. Members of the the favoured location in Solent to us. Our place has the coastguard had, believe it or not, been in industrial history and environment to support such a centre. We dispute for years over pay and other issues. Their starting also have buildings ready to go, which will save much pay of about £13,500 is unacceptable for someone in an money. That is what my constituents are looking for emergency service, and that was one of the things we guidance on. looked at. I had a choice: to start completely from scratch again Mike Penning: I apologise, but I was answering the or to say, “We’ll go with a consultation but I promise questions that my hon. Friend raised about local knowledge, the public and Members that we will come out with a resilience and so on. I have 10 minutes, and I assure him set of proposals showing that we’ve listened and that that I can answer his question. the service will be different from the one we went in We decided that we would change to a pairing system with.” I think that everyone accepts that the proposals in which one of the pairs would be dropped, the two the Secretary of State announced to the House in the extremities—the Western Isles and Shetland, which were summer were radically different, but contained the principle never paired before—would stay in 24-hour operation of resilience in the system that had not been present up and we would drop one of the MOC national headquarters, until then. Many people say to me, “Minister, this is just because in the end, I could not condone how much two about saving money”, but we are investing huge amounts would have cost. We went to a second consultation on in the system to address the fact that we have a national four specific points: whether Swansea or Milford Haven emergency service with no national resilience. would close, whether Liverpool or Holyhead would When my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset close, whether the Western Isles and Shetland should and I served in the armed forces, the one thing we all run 24 hours and whether there should be one or two relied on was resilience. When I was on the borders in MOCs. That consultation has just finished. Northern Ireland I would be told on the system: “We I have listened carefully to the points that my hon. will get someone.” I appreciate that there have been Friend has made—in his position as a Back Bencher, I problems with communications over the years. When would do exactly the same—but if I stood here today Bowman first came in for the military there was a lot of and said that I was willing to reconsider, I would have to concern about resilience, and when I visited an exercise reopen the whole consultation process, because this as a new MP I was told that Bowman stood for “better topic was not part of the consultation. To make that off with map and Nokia”, but it has developed a lot decision, I would have to consider several things. We and I have seen it in use in operations in Afghanistan said in the original consultation that we would like the and Iraq. MOC to be in the Portsmouth-Southampton area, for We needed to say to the public, “Let’s be honest with logical reasons. The MCA has a large footprint in that you.” We all have huge respect for the work of the part of the country, particularly in Gosport at Daedalus professional staff and volunteers—predominantly they and at its own headquarters. From a cost perspective, are volunteers—in Her Majesty’s coastguard. I pay there was an obvious logic to building a new MOC tribute also to other lifeboat crews. Many lifeboats, headquarters on existing Department for Transport particularly on the south coast, are not RNLI ones, and facilities, which is why we chose that model. it would be improper of me to omit them from the It would be difficult for me to change my mind in praise. light of what I received from the people of Weymouth In the responses to the first consultation, people were and my hon. Friend during the second consultation. I saying, “We know you’re going to have this new resilience would have to change my decisions after not only the and a new national co-ordination centre, but there will first but the second consultation and then reopen the be a massive loss of local knowledge.” However, in the consultation process on the MOC. I could not do that. local coastguard stations I visited, some people said, It would not be cost-effective given the efficiencies that “Save us; don’t look at any modernisation”, but others we need, particularly as we already have a large estate said, “We think there should be about eight, nine or footprint available. 10 coastguard stations, not 18”. A good half dozen of I am happy to be here to represent the Government the submissions, including from Belfast and Falmouth, and say where we are. I hope that I have answered most were about how we could have a proper national resilient of my hon. Friend’s questions. Although I understand service. So I thought: “If the coastguards are telling me that he is, rightly, representing his constituents—I am that they accept that 18 isn’t necessarily the way forward, also pleased to see the Minister of State, Department and that eight or nine is, how would it work?” Then it for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor became obvious that a pairing system had been in place Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb) here; as another within the coastguard for several years, for resilience Minister, he will understand—I cannot give that light at purposes. Because the coastguard could not have national the end of the rainbow and open up the whole process resilience, it created a pairing system in which one all over again for a further consultation. The reasons station would cover for another station if it was short of why we came to our previous conclusions still exist. All staff, if communications went down or in the event of the premises in the Weymouth area to which my hon. repairs or conversions. When I was at Swansea the other Friend refers are premises that we do not own. Other day to meet the coastguard, the station was completely Departments might, but we do not, and we would have switched off, and Milford Haven covered the whole area. to do an analysis. 63WH Marine Operations (Weymouth)11 OCTOBER 2011 Marine Operations (Weymouth) 64WH

[Mike Penning] all been switched off and closed. We will ensure that the IT and the communications systems in particular work MCA headquarters are in the area where we propose before we phase out. to build. We might put the MOC within that building so Understandably, staff members are leaving the MCA as not to expand our empire, which I am trying desperately at the moment, particularly at the stations earmarked to avoid. We may be able to facilitate that. The Daedalus for closure. I cannot blame them. They are quality site in Gosport is huge, and the Department for Transport people; other jobs are becoming available, and they are uses little of it; it already operates on a helicopter basis, taking them. However, I cannot recruit new people into and we own it. those coastguard stations knowing full well that I am I know it is difficult. I am the bearer of bad news. As going to close them. We will look carefully at manning a Minister, I always try to be as positive and helpful as I levels, but some stations might close slightly earlier than can with colleagues across the House, but I do not want predicted, simply because we cannot man them. to give my hon. Friend and his constituents the feeling that it is possible that we might change our minds and Richard Drax: I hear the Minister’s argument. Clearly, reopen the consultation on where the MOC will go, my constituents and I do not agree, but we are listening mostly because that was not part of the second consultation to him. It is his decision, and he is saying that there is in the first place. The decision where to put the MOC absolutely no chance. If that is the case in black and was based on the first consultation; the only relevant white—“Forget it”—it would be useful to hear that. decision in the second was whether to have one MOC or Also, can he give any reassurance that our rescue helicopter two. on Portland will be there for the foreseeable future and is not under threat? I know that that will disappoint him and his constituents, but I reiterate that the issue of local knowledge in Mike Penning: I cannot say anything about the helicopters people who rescue was addressed many years ago because, as I am sure my hon. Friend is aware, a in adaptations to the pairing system. Some stations criminal investigation into the procurement process is have been down for months while work was being done ongoing. At the moment, we do not know where our on them, and the other stations have coped. However, helicopters are likely to be. The Ministry of Defence has what they could never do, to go back to an earlier point, decided to withdraw, so it will be a civilian matter run was be controlled centrally by division or brigade through the Department for Transport and the MCA. headquarters—or even regimental; the numbers are not huge—and provide the sort of pay, training and promotion I did not want to be this brutal and straightforward, prospects that we would all like for anybody working but I must. Where to put the MCA in the south was not within our constituencies. part of the second consultation. That decision has been made. It will be in the Solent area. Although I respect Part of it is about money—there is no argument enormously the work done by the community for the about that; I have had to make considerable savings in second consultation, I am afraid that that matter was the Department—but actually, it is about resilience. The not part of the second consultation, and sadly, I am not ex-Second Sea Lord is the chief executive. He has willing to reopen the consultation. served his country all his life. The chief coastguard has been in the coastguard for most of his working life. Mr Lee Scott (in the Chair): Before I call the hon. They would not be sitting with me discussing the plan if Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) to introduce we thought that there was a danger. There is a danger in the next debate, I remind hon. Members that unless leaving things as they are. We will phase in the changes. they have put in to speak in a half-hour debate, only the We are not going to wake up one morning to find it has lead Member and the Minister will be able to speak. 65WH 11 OCTOBER 2011 School Places (Bristol) 66WH

School Places (Bristol) adding modular classrooms to already stretched schools. Although those classrooms are an improvement on the 1.30 pm Portakabins and huts we might remember from school, they are still not an ideal, permanent solution. One Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure school has had to convert its information and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Scott. I am communications technology suite to classroom use, which, grateful for the opportunity to debate a matter of great again, is not ideal. concern to many of my constituents and to parents across Bristol. I thank the Minister for having a meeting The council has had to spend £5.3 million on such earlier today with all four Bristol MPs, the council temporary solutions. There is no guidance from central cabinet’s lead member on schools, children and young Government and no clear view on the way forward to people and the council officer who deals with those enable the long-term planning we need. Spending money issues. It was a useful meeting, although, unfortunately, on temporary classrooms, rather than permanent school the Minister did not produce a large cheque at the end buildings, is a quick-fix solution, and it might prove to of it. be an inefficient use of scarce resources in the long As I explained to the Minister this morning, Bristol term. faces a crisis in primary school provision: there simply Some schools, such as May Park in my constituency, are not enough primary school places. The number of have increased from two to four-form entry. Obviously, four-year-olds—that is the age at which children start that does not solve the problem in itself, because the reception class—has increased by 20% in Bristol over new pupils will move up next year, and so on through the past four years. This year alone, we needed an the school, creating an additional need for classrooms if additional 14 reception classes. Demand is projected to each year is to have four forms. Schools such as May rise steeply over the next couple of years, tailing off a Park are doubling in size, which creates additional little, but then taking off again. It is estimated that pressures, because the dining halls and other facilities— Bristol will need a minimum of an additional 3,000 places particularly the play facilities—are not designed to cope by 2015. with the numbers. When I visited Air Balloon Hill Bristol has seen the fastest growth in pupil numbers primary in my constituency last week, I was told that it in the country. The council estimates that the current had to spend £90,000 on a new electricity generator percentage change in primary school numbers is three because the addition of a few extra modular classrooms times the rate across England. According to Office for meant that the existing generator was unable to cope National Statistics projections for population growth with the demand. between 2008 and 2015, the increase on 2010 levels will be 11 times higher in Bristol than the national average. As I said, the local authority has been quite imaginative, Judged against its own historical standards and national and it has done all it can to put in place temporary comparisons, therefore, there has been unprecedented quick fixes, but we need more radical and lasting remedies. growth in Bristol, and I ask the Minister to consider the The task is becoming greater with year-on-year growth city’s special case for urgent funding. in the four-year-old population. By 2015, it is estimated There are a number of reasons for the rapid increase that Bristol will need a minimum of 100 additional in the primary school-age population. Bristol is a popular classes, which is equivalent to 14 one-form entry schools. place to live for many reasons, including economic and Depending on housing development and migration patterns, cultural reasons. Immigration is also a factor, although the 3,000-place shortfall could be quite a significant it is not the only cause. This is a city-wide problem, as underestimate, and it is suggested that the figure could the Minister will have seen from the map we showed be as high as 5,300. him this morning; it is not a problem just in the inner-city The pressing priority is September 2012. The council areas, where black and minority ethnic populations are has 11 months to find 15 additional reception classes. traditionally concentrated. Legally, it must provide those places, but that is not the In areas such as St George, which is in my constituency, only reason why failure is not an option. As all the other the pressure on school places has come about as a result MPs in Bristol will confirm, parents are coming to us of gradual demographic change, as older people who because they simply cannot get their children into a have lived in these areas all their lives have died or school that they could physically deliver them to in time moved to sheltered accommodation, and younger people each morning. I have met parents who have a child in a have moved in because these are cheap places to live. school at one end of the city and who are being told Obviously, those younger people go on to have families. that their next child, who is starting reception class, has The recession has meant that parents who might to go to a school several miles away. However, public previously have opted for private education can no transport in Bristol is pretty abysmal; we have the worst longer afford it. Equally, improving education standards traffic congestion of any city in the country. Parents tell in Bristol mean that parents might be less likely to opt me that they will have to give up work, particularly if for private provision or to take their children out of the they work shifts and can no longer use breakfast clubs Bristol local authority area and to schools in north and after-school clubs because there are fewer of them. Somerset or south Gloucestershire, which has been a Parents are also having their child care credits cut, so it major factor over the years. There have also been major is more difficult to fund child care. Physically, parents housing developments, and there is an urgent need to are not able to be in three places at once; they cannot build more housing in Bristol, so this problem will not get to work on time, get one child to school and get go away. another child to a child minder. Parents cannot manage This year, Bristol city council had to find an additional the logistics of getting their children to their schools. 250 places to ensure that all reception-age children Even though the new term has started, some children could start school in September. It has had to resort to still do not have a school place to go to. 67WH School Places (Bristol)11 OCTOBER 2011 School Places (Bristol) 68WH

[Kerry McCarthy] by the city council when it considered having an all-through free school on the St Ursula’s site? That would have On a more positive front, the local authority has a been able to attract capital funding from the Department strategy to resolve the crisis, as the Minister heard this for the primary school places that she is making a good morning. Its children and young people’s services have point in saying we need. been working with the local education partnership and developers. They have detailed plans for rebuilds and Kerry McCarthy: The point I am making is that there have identified potential sites for new schools. The is a surplus in secondary school provision that is predicted standardised designs can be constructed quickly and to be in place until 2017. I suggest that the entire efficiently. Importantly, estimates suggest that they movement towards getting a secondary school in Bristol offer a 20% reduction in building bulletin guidance. was misguided. The priority should have been solely to Unfortunately, the stumbling block is a £110 million focus on the primary school need. I understand that the funding gap. new free school has a capacity of 150 places and that To give an example that I mentioned to the Minister only 82 children started there this September. The three this morning, Air Balloon Hill primary school has closest secondary schools—Henbury, Oasis Brightstowe spent £500,000 on working up detailed plans for the and Orchard—all have a significant surplus of provision. major building works it desperately needs if it is to Indeed, the head teacher of Henbury, which already has continue as a four-form entry school. The work must about 145 spare places, has warned about the impact start by February next year if the school is to be ready that the free school will have upon her school. for a four-form entry 2012 reception class, but it needs As I was saying, I do not believe that there was a need £4.5 million if that is to happen. As I am sure the for a Bristol free school, particularly a secondary school. Minister will tell us, the figures will be looked at in We should have focused on primary schools instead. November, so it could be into the new year before the The bizarre thing about what has happened with the school has any idea whether it will get the additional Bristol free school is that the preferred site was the funding it needs. Obviously, other schools across Bristol former St Ursula site bought by Bristol city council will be in the same position and will be seeking similar because it represented good value for money for a new sums. primary school. However, it was confirmed last week Capital funding for 2011-12 has been reduced by that Bristol free school will remain on its temporary site 20%, and the budget was necessarily strained by September’s on Burghill road, Southmead. It is worth noting that pupil increase, leaving the council in a position where it half the parents who supported the Bristol free school cannot begin to address next year’s shortage. The Secretary during the consultation stated that they would not send of State announced an extra £500 million in July to their children there if it were located on Burghill road. fund basic need nationally, but the council needs a So not only is there no need for the school, but it may degree of certainty about what its share of the money not even have the community support on which free will be and when it will receive it. schools are supposed to be based. The methodology for allocating basic need funding The strange thing is that the catchment area of the also means that Bristol is unlikely to receive its fair new free school is based on the St Ursula site that was share. The Department judges basic need according to the preferred location. Some 80% of the school’s places the surplus of all primary school places across the local will be unashamedly given to the affluent BS9 community, authority. That will change in the next few years as the which is in the top 5% of the most affluent areas in the increased population moves up through the school, but country. At the same time, access will be restricted for there is technically a surplus in primary school places in families living directly around the school in the less Bristol at the moment because there are spare places— prosperous area of Southmead. The school is actually classes of 25 or 26 pupils—in years five and six. However, outside its own catchment area. There seems to be a that does not really help someone with a four-year-old strange sense of what the priorities should be. We who needs to start school immediately. I urge the Minister should be focusing on the need for a primary school not to do this netting off of surplus places against instead. shortfall, but to look at how many pupils we need year There is now an E-ACT primary academy on the St on year, because children will otherwise be sitting at Ursula site, but it has had to restrict its intake to two home unable to go to school. forms rather than the preferred three or four-form entry Bristol has recently—this September—received funding in case the Bristol free school also moved to the site. for a new school, but it is not the school that the city Bristol free school has diverted much needed resources desperately needs. Following concerted campaigning from Bristol’s existing secondary schools and has enabled from some parents in one part of the city and the hon. the Government to concentrate on the wealthier areas Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), Bristol while completely ignoring Bristol’s actual needs. can now claim to have the largest free school in the country. However, it is a secondary school and it does Charlotte Leslie: Does the hon. Lady agree that, nothing to address need in the city. given the passionate case she is making for primary school places today, it is a great shame that the Labour Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): Does Administration and the Building Schools for the Future the hon. Lady agree that, given there is a need for programme concentrated on secondary schools and primary school places in the area, obviously there will completely neglected primary school need? In 2008, it be a need for more secondary school places in the future was a Labour council that oversaw a primary review and that we have learned the lesson that forward planning that cut all surplus places in the primary schools. Although goes a long way? Does she also agree that it was most I very much welcome her concern for primary school unfortunate that discussions were not progressed more places and for the really upsetting plight of parents in 69WH School Places (Bristol)11 OCTOBER 2011 School Places (Bristol) 70WH

Bristol, does she not agree that it is a great shame that education provision in Bristol, as she has served the the matter was not sorted out when her party was in community well in local and national politics for a council power and in government? number of years. As she said, earlier today we met with the right hon. Member for Bristol South (Dawn Primarolo) Kerry McCarthy: Our party was leading on the council and my hon. Friends the Members for Bristol West for a very short time, as I am sure the hon. Lady knows. (Stephen Williams) and for Bristol North West (Charlotte I will not in any way apologise for the Building Schools Leslie) to discuss the issues facing Bristol in terms of for the Future programme and the academies programme population increase. in Bristol, as they made a phenomenal difference to standards in our secondary schools. She will know that I am aware that the hon. Member for Bristol East has there was a real problem with people taking their children been active, as she has been today, in raising the difficulties out of schools in Bristol, particularly in years 5 or 6 of faced by schools in her area, especially with respect to primary school, because they did not want them to go her concerns surrounding the establishment of the proposed to Bristol state schools. We have seen a huge increase in Bristol free school. I hope that, by now, she has received standards in those schools built under Building Schools a response from my noble Friend Lord Hill to the letter for the Future. That programme was not about addressing regarding the Bristol free school. There is overwhelming the places issue and the shortage of places; it was about demand for a Bristol free school from parents in that addressing school standards. It is really important that area. She is right to point out that it was in the BS9 area we did that. that the community campaigned for a new school. That community felt that too many pupils had to leave the The case for investment in Bristol’s primary schools is local authority to receive a good standard of education. not only pressing, but urgent. Building works must start In fact, hundreds of parents attended a recent parents’ within the next few months if we are to have enough evening for the September 2012 year 7 intake, which classrooms in September. Some schools have been hesitant demonstrates that there is significant demand for the to commit to additional classes in case that pushes them new free school. into debt. We therefore need decisions to be made as soon as possible. The hon. Lady referred to capacity issues. She is Bristol city council has made several representations right: the reception to year 6 primary population in to the Department for Education and, as I mentioned, Bristol is forecast to increase from 27,000 in 2009-10 to local MPs met with the Minister responsible for schools around 33,500 by 2014-15. She is also right to point out earlier today. That meeting was originally set up just to that, at the moment, there are 3,074 surplus places discuss the case for extra funding for schools in Bristol across 70 schools, 15 of which have more than 25% West. That is the wrong way to approach the matter. spare places. However, the council is also projecting a This is a city-wide problem and all four Bristol MPs deficit of primary places from 2012-13 based on the should be working together to help resolve it. May 2010 school capacity figures. It is also unfortunate that the letter from the Liberal The greatest demand for places is in the east central Democrat council leader to the Secretary of State making area of the city, but the surplus places tend to be in the case for additional funding gives the erroneous schools located in the north and south city boundary impression that the problem is specific to the north of areas. That is why the hon. Lady is concerned with the Bristol. As the Minister will have seen from the map methodology of how capital is allocated to local authorities. that he was shown, the problem is not restricted to any She made that point powerfully, with other hon. Members, particular area of the city. The issue occurs in pockets at the meeting this morning. I also understand, and am across the city and, although it is particularly a problem sympathetic to, the logistical problems. I think that in the inner city, it affects all four Bristol constituencies. representatives from the local authority said that 94% My right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South of parents in the Bristol area achieve one of their first (Dawn Primarolo) is sitting here watching the debate three primary school choices, but that still leaves 6% because her position as Deputy Speaker means that she who do not. Some parents find themselves having to is not allowed to take part. However, she has told me travel significant distances to secure a primary school that she has about 30 constituents who were not offered place. a school place in the local area and that the problem is The Government are aware of the pressures that particularly acute in the Southville and Bedminster many local authorities face in light of population increases wards. As in Bristol East, there are very limited and the very tight spending review capital settlement for opportunities to expand schools in Bristol South on the Department. We must never forget why we are in their current sites, and my right hon. Friend rightly this difficult position and why we have to make these joined us this morning to make the case to the Minister. difficult decisions. It is, of course, due to the difficult There are major shortfalls in the number of primary state of the public finances that we inherited. That has school places across the city. It is a city-wide problem made it necessary for our top priority to be to reduce that needs to be resolved at a city-wide level in the best the country’s budget deficit, rather than being able to interests of all families in Bristol, not just a select few. I provide significant additional money for capital funding urge the Minister to work with the local authority to of school projects. We are now paying £120 million in secure immediate and lasting solutions. I look forward interest every day of the week. Those interest payments to hearing what he has to say today. could have been used to rebuild or refurbish 10 schools every day of the year, but we are not in that position. 1.47 pm Despite the difficulties we face, we have still been able The Minister of State, Department for Education to announce that the Department for Education’s capital (Mr Nick Gibb): I congratulate the hon. Member for spending will be £15.9 billion in the four years of the Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) on securing this important spending review period. We know only too well that debate. I know she is no stranger to the issues surrounding there are schools in need of refurbishment that missed 71WH School Places (Bristol)11 OCTOBER 2011 School Places (Bristol) 72WH

[Mr Nick Gibb] from demographic change, and therefore has the greatest need and perhaps the greatest call on that extra £500 million out on the previous Government’s unsustainable capital of welcome resources. programmes. We appreciate fully that some people will feel that they have been unfairly treated. Even though Mr Gibb: My hon. Friend makes a valid point; it was we have had to take some very difficult decisions on made strongly at the meeting this morning and I took it spending, we will still be able to continue putting money on board. A 20% increase is significantly higher than into the schools estate at an average of almost £4 billion most others. There are one or two areas—such as Plymouth, a year. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that that I think—that have a higher increase. Nevertheless, looking is still a significant sum. More importantly, we believe at the country as a whole, Bristol is significantly high in that it is affordable in the current financial circumstances. terms of its population increase in that age group compared to other parts of the country. That will be It is essential that we maintain buildings properly to taken into account when we analyse the 2011 data, ensure that health and safety standards are met and to which will be used to allocate the £500 million. prevent an increasing backlog of decaying buildings. As the hon. Member for Bristol East knows, last year However, by stopping the wasteful Building Schools for the Secretary of State commissioned, from Sebastian the Future project, to which we were not contractually James, a full and independent review of the Department’s committed, we have been able to allocate £1.4 billion to capital programmes. That review has been published local authorities to prioritise their local maintenance and the Secretary of State has commented on—indeed, needs. That includes £195 million of devolved formula has already agreed with—some of its recommendations. capital that has been directly allocated to schools themselves The recommendations propose a new approach to the for their own use. In addition—the important point future allocation and use of all available capital funding, as far as the hon. Lady is concerned—we allocated including that funding continue to be prioritised to the £800 million of basic need funding for 2011-12, which is provision of pupil places and addressing condition needs. twice the previous annual support for new school places The Department is consulting on the proposals made in in areas of population growth. the James review. In fact, the consultation ends today. As the hon. Lady pointed out in her opening remarks, Future capital allocations and the management of in July the Secretary of State announced that, in addition funding for 2012-13 until 2014-15 will be informed by to that £800 million in 2011-12, he could announce a the outcome of the capital review. That was raised in further basic need allocation of £500 million to provide this morning’s meeting by the local authority and by the extra school places where there was greatest pressure hon. Lady. They want a degree of certainty about caused by the increasing pupil population. That additional future capital allocations. The outcome of that consultation funding has been made available thanks to efficiencies and its conclusions will, I think, steer her and her local and savings that the Department, working with Partnerships authority in that general direction. However, as I have for Schools, has been able to identify in the Building said, the Secretary of State has already indicated that Schools for the Future projects that are continuing. local authorities can expect that the headline amounts Officials in the Department are working on the allocation of capital available in future years will be broadly in line methodology for notifying local authorities of their with those allocated for 2011-12. I hope that that will share of that additional £500 million. The intention is help her local authority to engage in a planning process to use the 2011 school capacity and forecast information to help to eradicate the shortage of places in the Bristol that was submitted to the Department by local authorities area. in August 2011. By using those data, we can ensure that the additional money is indeed allocated to those in As well as radically reviewing the way capital funding greatest need. is allocated and spent, the Government are continuing to press forward with their academy and free schools Bristol’s capital allocation of the £800 million is programme. That includes a focus on funding an academy approximately £9.36 million in 2011-12. In addition, in solution for the weakest primary schools in the country. 2011-12 it has received more than £6 million in capital Bristol has a number of open academies. Indeed, I had maintenance allocations, as well as £1.1 million in devolved a very informative visit to Merchants’ academy in July. formula capital. Therefore, Bristol is already due to The introduction of the academies and free schools receive £17.1 million of capital this year. Once we have programme should be viewed as an additional tool in allocated the £500 million, based on the 2011 statistics, the armoury of local authorities as they seek to eradicate other sums should be forthcoming to ensure that there any basic need pressures that they are encountering. By are sufficient school places for primary school pupils, giving those involved in education the chance and the particularly in the Bristol area. freedom they need to shape the future of our schools, We have been working with stakeholders, including and by opening up the opportunities for others to enter local authorities, to understand better their basic need the education sector, we believe that we are offering an forecasts and pressures. It is clear that some authorities education system that will meet the needs of local face greater pressures, as the hon. Lady highlighted. communities. Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Does the Minister The meeting this morning with the hon. Lady and agree that the key point that the four MPs and the city other hon. Members who represent Bristol was very council tried to get across to him in his office this constructive and helpful. Officials will continue to work morning is that, while there are several authorities with local authorities to find a solution to the basic around the country that face population pressure, Bristol’s need problems facing Bristol. pressures are more significant than those for the family Question put and agreed to. of core city authorities and indeed outstrip the population growth of inner London? Of all the family of urban 1.59 pm centres in the country, Bristol faces the greatest pressure Sitting adjourned. 17WS Written Ministerial Statements11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

of Defence (MOD) the Defence Vetting Agency (DVA) Written Ministerial ceased to have the status of an executive agency from 1 October 2011. Statements The DVA was formed in April 1997 bringing together the four National Service Vetting (NSV) organisations serving each of the armed services and the MOD. Since Tuesday 11 October 2011 that date the DVAhas successfully delivered NSV services to the MOD and its industry contractors, and has also provided similar services to a wide range of other TREASURY Government Departments. Today it is by far the larger of the two UK Government shared service providers of NSV. HM Revenue and Customs (Consultation) My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Defence, announced on 22 March 2011, Official Report, columns 49-50WS, the intention to establish a new The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Defence Business Services (DBS) organisation, bringing Gauke): On Friday 7 October, HM Revenue and Customs together the delivery of a range of corporate service published a consultation on the Social Security functions to support all areas of the Department from (Categorisation of Earners) Regulations 1978 in relation one organisation. The DBS was launched in July, and to lecturers, teachers, instructors or those in a similar the NSV function undertaken by the DVA will be capacity. Its purpose is to consult on HMRC’s proposal provided under a new business model renamed as DBS to repeal this part of the regulations. National Security Vetting. The consultation document is available on the HM This change in operating status will have no impact Revenue and Customs website at: http://www.hmrc.gov. on the DVA’s customers, and will deliver efficiencies and uk/consultations/. wider savings to Government. In particular, it will reinforce the DVA’s ability to deliver planned business improvements from its new Cerberus IT system to drive up service to CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT its internal and external customers.

Olympic Park Legacy Update ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE

The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Weightman Report (Fukushima) Robertson): Further to the written statement made to the House on 3 March 2011, Official Report, column 33WS, referring to the selection of the preferred bidder The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change for the long-term lease of the Olympic stadium, my (Chris Huhne): Today I have deposited in the House the colleague the Under-Secretary of State for Communities final report which I requested from the chief nuclear and Local Government, the hon. Member for Bromley inspector, Dr Mike Weightman, on the events at Japan’s and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), the Mayor of London Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear site in March. and I have today decided, as joint founder members of Olympic Park Legacy Company (OPLC), that the company Fukushima changed the energy debate around the should terminate the process for the disposal of the world. Questions were raised about the extent and Olympic stadium with immediate effect. safety of nuclear power and people rightfully wanted to know what happened, and whether it could happen The OPLC founder members have also agreed that again. the company should now explore alternative options in order to deliver the stadium in legacy, and take into Safety is always our number one concern. We needed account the commitments which have recently been to understand the facts before making any decisions. made in support of the bid to host the World Athletics That is why I asked the chief nuclear inspector, Dr Mike Championship in 2017. Weightman, to look at what Fukushima means for nuclear energy in Britain, and what lessons can be This decision will remove the ongoing uncertainty learned. and continuing delays in determining a sustainable legacy for this important part of the legacy of the Olympic Dr Weightman produced his interim report in May. It park. was evidence based, and prepared in close co-operation with international regulators. It confirmed that the UK’s current safety regime is working, and that regulators and industry should continue to work together to make DEFENCE continuous improvements to nuclear safety. The interim report also reassured us that new nuclear Defence Vetting Agency: Removal of Agency Status can be part of a low-carbon energy mix in the UK. Nuclear energy is important for our energy security now and we want it to be part of the mix in the future. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Dr Weightman’s final report was submitted to me on (Mr Andrew Robathan): As part of the programme of 30 September, and I am presenting it to the House at the work associated with defence reform within the Ministry earliest possible opportunity. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

I would like to thank Dr Weightman and his team for which the nuclear national policy statement was based, their hard work. This is a thorough and comprehensive or any need to change present siting strategies for new report on the lessons that can be learned for the UK’s nuclear power stations in the UK. nuclear industry. It will help ensure that our regulatory Dr Weightman’s final recommendation is to invite regime remains robust, and that the nuclear industry reports on progress by June 2012, when he intends to remains committed to continuous improvement for all report back on implementation lessons. existing and future facilities. The European nuclear stress tests have been conducted The final report expands on the interim report by in parallel to this process, and there are overlaps between providing additional information and evidence, widening the initial findings and the recommendations in the scope to include non-generation sites in the UK, Dr Weightman’s reports. Stress testing will continue such as Sellafield. into next year, and both industry and the Office for It provides background on how to mitigate against Nuclear Regulation will continue to be involved. radioactive hazards; the differences between reactor Dr Weightman’s proposed supplementary report will technologies in Fukushima and the UK; and the differing include further details of the stress test. approaches to nuclear safety and security in the UK, Regulators and industry are also continuing to work Japan and the wider world. together to take forward the generic design assessment The report also sets out a timetable of events at process for new nuclear reactors, and have extended Fukushima, and describes the work undertaken by their timeline in order to take into account the findings Dr Weightman and his team. in both the interim and final report. Regulators have One of the report’s key findings is that the additional stated that they hope to be in a position to take decision information received since the interim report, including on the generic design assessment by the end of the year. from his own visit to Fukushima and the UK Office for In conclusion, I welcome Dr Weightman’s final Nuclear Regulation’s own more detailed analysis, has report, and I encourage the regulators to work reinforced the interim findings. closely with industry and other partners to take the As the initial report made clear, the current regulatory recommendations forward. The Government intend to safety framework in the UK is satisfactory. Dr Weightman respond to Dr Weightman’s recommendations in more sees no reason to curtail the operation of power plants detail by the end of the year. or other nuclear facilities in the UK. He believes the industry has reacted responsibly and appropriately, displaying strong leadership for safety and safety culture. HEALTH The final report re-states these interim conclusions and recommendations. It also concludes that the UK practice of periodic safety reviews of licensed sites Choosing a Named Consultant-led Team provides a robust means of ensuring continuous (Government Response) improvement in line with advances in technology and standards. The final report also emphasises the need to continue The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): the Sellafield legacy pond and silo clean-up with the Today I am publishing the “Liberating the NHS: Greater utmost vigour and determination. choice and control—Government response: choice of named consultant-led team” and associated guidance. The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is making The response, the contract implementation guidance tangible, demonstrable progress in addressing these national and the impact assessment have been placed in the priorities. It is the NDA’s top priority, and we have Library. Copies of the response are available to hon. ensured that their work in this area is not limited by Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from funding constraints. Reduction of risk and hazard sits the Printed Paper Office. at the very heart of the NDA’s mission. This is the response to the questions associated with Dr Weightman and his team are satisfied with the the proposal to offer patients choice of named consultant- responses and actions initiated by Government and led team in “Liberating the NHS: Greater choice and industry in response to the interim report. control—A consultation on proposals”. The response The final report also re-states the recommendations to these questions is being published now to help the from the interim report, adding additional detail where NHS plan for the next financial year. A fuller response necessary. It focuses on areas that should be reviewed covering all of the remaining questions in the greater to determine whether there are further practicable choice and control consultation document will follow improvements that can be made to enhance safety. later this year. Dr Weightman has also recommended that regulators, This consultation sought views on the choice Government and industry review: commitments first set out in the White Paper “Equity the UK’s ability to monitor and provide real-time information and Excellence: Liberating the NHS” (Cm 7881). The in an emergency; consultation period ran from 18 October 2010 until the robustness of emergency control structures and systems; 14 January 2011 and I am delighted to report that and hundreds of engagement activities were undertaken and continue to promote high levels of safety culture, making 617 unique responses were received. We have heard use of the National Skills Academy for nuclear and other from patients, service users, clinicians, care professionals, “nuclear professionalism” schemes. systems providers, voluntary sector organisations and The final report also confirms the advice given by many others. All these contributions have been analysed Dr Weightman at the time of the interim report; namely and have informed the ongoing development of our that he saw no reason to revise the strategic advice on policy direction reflected in today’s publication. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

A significant majority of respondents supported our a review of appropriate exit strategies. During the reporting proposed approach to implementing proposals to offer period, one CORG was held in relation to some of the patients a choice of named consultant-led team at referral orders in force at the time. CORGs in relation to the as set out in the consultation document. A range of remaining cases were held just before this reporting issues were also raised around the need for good quality period. Other meetings were held on an ad hoc basis as information to support choice; the impacts on providers’ specific issues arose. ability to manage capacity and waiting times; and the During the period 11 June 2011 to 10 September development of specialist knowledge by consultant-led 2011, no non-derogating control orders were made or teams. served. Two control orders have been renewed in accordance The issues raised in the responses to choice of named with section 2(6) of the 2005 Act in this reporting consultant-led team have been taken into account in period. One control order was revoked during this drafting the contractual guidance published alongside reporting period as it was no longer considered necessary. this response, and the accompanying impact assessment. One control order, made in a previous quarter but never served, expired during this reporting period. In total, as of 10 September, there were 11 control orders in force, all of which were in respect of British HOME DEPARTMENT citizens. All of these control orders were non-derogating. One individual subject to a control order was living in the Metropolitan police district; the remaining individuals Control Order Powers were living in other police force areas. Three individuals were charged with breaching their control order obligations during this period. The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): Section 14(1) of the Prevention of During this reporting period, 76 modifications of Terrorism Act 2005 (the 2005 Act) requires the Secretary control order obligations were made. Twenty-two requests of State to report to Parliament as soon as reasonably to modify control order obligations were refused. practicable after the end of every relevant three-month Section 10(1) of the 2005 Act provides a right of period on the exercise of the control order powers appeal against a decision by the Secretary of State to during that period. renew a non-derogating control order or to modify an The level of information provided will always be obligation imposed by a non-derogating control order subject to slight variations based on operational advice. without consent. Two appeals have been lodged with The future of the control order regime the High Court during this reporting period under section 10(1) of the 2005 Act. A right of appeal is also The Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures provided by section 10(3) of the 2005 Act against a (TPIM) Bill, which makes provision for the abolition of decision by the Secretary of State to refuse a request by control orders and their replacement with a new, less a controlled person to revoke their order or to modify intrusive and more focused regime, is continuing its any obligation under their order. During this reporting parliamentary passage. A copy of the Bill can be found period no appeals were lodged with the High Court on Parliament’s web site. The home page for the Bill is: under section 10(3) of the 2005 Act. http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/ terrorismpreventionandinvestigationmeasures.html. Seven judgments have been handed down in relation to control order cases during this reporting period; five The control order system will continue to operate by the High Court and two by the Court of Appeal. until its replacement is in force. On 13 June 2011 a judgment was handed down by the The Government’s counter-terrorism and security powers High Court in relation to the appeal brought by BG review concluded that there may be exceptional under section 10(1) of the 2005 Act. In BG v. Secretary circumstances where more stringent measures may be of State for the Home Department [2011] EWHC 1478 required to protect the public than those available under (Admin), the High Court upheld the Secretary of State’s the TPIM Bill. Such circumstances would be a very decision. serious terrorist risk that cannot be managed by any other means. The Government committed to preparing On 18 July 2011 the High Court handed down a draft emergency legislation for introduction should such judgment following the Court review of the imposition circumstances arise. The draft enhanced TPIM Bill was of a control order under section 3(10) of the 2005 Act. published on 1 September so that it can be subject to In Secretary of State for the Home Department v. BF pre-legislative scrutiny. [2011] EWHC 1878 (Admin), the High Court upheld The exercise of the control order powers in the last the decision to make the control order. quarter On 22 July 2011, the High Court handed down a As explained in previous quarterly statements, control judgment in relation to an appeal by a controlled individual order obligations are tailored to the individual concerned under section 10(3) of the 2005 Act. In BM v. Secretary and are based on the terrorism-related risk that individual of State for the Home Department [2011] EWHC 1969 poses. Each control order is kept under regular review (Admin), the High Court upheld the Secretary of State’s to ensure that the obligations remain necessary and decision. proportionate. The Home Office continues to hold Control The High Court handed down a further judgment on Order Review Groups (CORGs) every quarter, with 25 July 2011 in relation to two individuals who were representation from law enforcement and intelligence each subject to control orders for only a short period of agencies, to keep the obligations in every control time. In Secretary of State for the Home Department v. order under regular and formal review and to facilitate CB and BP [2011] EWHC 1990 (Admin), the Court 23WS Written Ministerial Statements11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS ruled that it was appropriate for it to exercise its case and prosecution of crime and reflects the flexibility management powers to, in effect, terminate the court which member states need in order to meet the requirements review of the imposition of their control orders. The of the ECHR in a way which is consistent with the Court also ordered the discharge of the anonymity nature of their justice systems. In the event our concerns orders made in these cases. Abid NASEER (CB) and about the initial draft of the directive are satisfactorily Faraz KHAN (BP) have been granted permission by dealt with during the negotiations, we will give serious the High Court to appeal the decision to terminate the thought to whether we should apply to opt in to it once Court proceedings. it has been adopted, as our protocol to the treaty on the On 29 July 2011 the High Court handed down a functioning of the European Union allows. We will judgment following the Court review of the imposition consult Parliament about any decision to apply to opt of a control order under section 3(10) of the 2005 Act. in to the final text. In Secretary of State for the Home Department v. CD [2011] EWHC 2087 (Admin), the High Court upheld the decision to make the control order. TRANSPORT The first judgment handed down by the Court of Appeal in this reporting period relates to the appeal brought by AM against the decision of the High Court High-volume Semi-trailers to uphold his control order. In AM v. Secretary of State for the Home Department [2011] EWCA Civ 710, handed down on 21 June 2011, the Court of Appeal dismissed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport AM’s appeal. (Mike Penning): Further to my statement of 30 March The Court of Appeal also handed down judgment in 2011, Official Report, column 23WS, the Department this reporting period in the context of the appeal brought for Transport has today published its response to the by AH, an individual formerly subject to a control consultation on a proposal to allow a 2.05 metre increase order. In AH v. Secretary of State for the Home Department in the length of semi-trailers and a maximum overall [2011] EWCA Civ 787, handed down on 6 July 2011, the length for articulated heavy goods vehicles of 18.75 metres. Court of Appeal dismissed AH’s appeal. The research underlying the consultation proposal Most full judgments are available at http://www.bailii.org/. suggests that high volume semi-trailers have potential environmental, safety and congestion benefits: they would allow up to 13% more loading space than current JUSTICE articulated lorries, resulting in fewer journeys needed to transport the same volume of goods. The research Right of Access to a Lawyer in Criminal Proceedings predicts that by 2015 this would reduce lorry miles in and Right to Communicate upon Arrest the UK by 100 to 180 million a year, meaning reduced (Opt-in Decision on Draft EU Directive) congestion, reduced air pollution and reduced carbon emissions (by around 100,000 tonnes a year reduction). The research also found that there would be a net The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice decrease in casualties of around 1.6% from the reduction (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Government have taken this in lorry miles. decision in accordance with the commitment in the However, the evidence provided during the consultation coalition agreement, which states that we will approach exercise has identified a number of areas which merit legislation in the area of criminal justice on a case-by-case additional investigation. These include possible effects basis, with a view to maximising our country’s security, if the number of longer semi-trailers introduced is protecting Britain’s civil liberties and preserving the significantly higher than that predicted by the research integrity of our criminal justice system. and the impact assessment attached to the consultation The Government agree that a European directive in document; the impacts of longer semi-trailers on road this area is a good idea in principle. We believe that it infrastructure and design and on depot and distribution could benefit UK nationals who become subject to the centre infrastructure and design; the impacts on SMEs criminal justice systems of other member states. Such a of allowing longer semi-trailers; and the effectiveness of directive could also build greater trust and confidence additional vision/sensor/safety systems fitted to improve among the competent authorities of all EU member detection of vulnerable road users. states who may be expected to accept and act upon The research underlying the consultation proposals decisions or judgments made in other member states. was comprehensive. To gather further evidence on such However, a number of provisions in the proposal, as impacts will therefore require a trial of longer semi-trailers published by the European Commission, go substantially in operation. The Department therefore intends to proceed beyond the requirements of the European Convention with an operational trial of longer semi-trailers in order on Human Rights (ECHR) and would have an adverse to gather practical evidence. Trailers taking part in the impact on our ability to investigate and prosecute offences trial will operate under Vehicle Special Orders issued effectively and fairly. Given the extent of our concerns under section 44 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. on the detail of this directive, we cannot at this stage be The Department considers that the number of vehicles confident that all of them will be addressed in the permitted in the trial will need to be limited, but that the process of negotiations. number permitted should still allow meaningful evidence Given the importance we attach to the principles of to be gathered on the likely take-up of longer semi-trailers this directive, we intend to work very closely with our across the vehicle fleet as well as their impact on European partners to develop a text which takes greater infrastructure. This would require a trial of vehicle account of the practical realities of the investigation numbers that allows operators to swap a sufficient 25WS Written Ministerial Statements11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS percentage of their fleet over to the longer semi-trailer constitutional arrangements in Wales. I said that I to enable them to remove standard trailers from their would make further announcements after recess. fleet and make an effective comparison of performance. I am now able to inform the House that the Commission The responses to the consultation also indicate that will be chaired by Paul Silk, Clerk to the National different businesses would wish to choose between Assembly for Wales from 2001 to 2007 and a former additional trailer lengths of up to 1 metre and up to Clerk in this House. He will be joined on the Commission 2.05 metres, depending on the nature of their business. by two independent members. They are: The trial provides an opportunity to validate the impacts Dyfrig John CBE, Chairman of the Principality Building of each length. The current trailer parc for articulated Society; vehicle above 40 tonnes in the UK is estimated at and around 100,000 trailers. The Department intends to Professor Noel Lloyd CBE, a former Vice-Chancellor and proceed with a trial of up to 900 trailers of an increased Principal of Aberystwyth University. length of up to 2.05 metres; and 900 trailers of an increased length of up to 1 metre, 1,800 trailers forming In addition, there will be four party political members just under 2% of trailers on British roads. who are each nominated by one of the four political parties in the National Assembly for Wales. They are: Our baseline research shows that the ability to operate longer semi-trailers would provide clear benefits to Professor Nick Bourne (Welsh Conservatives nominee); business and a spur to efficiency and growth. We expect Sue Essex (Welsh Labour nominee); the trial itself to offer a net present value of £33 million, Rob Humphreys (Welsh Liberal Democrats nominee); and largely due to the financial benefits operators should Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym (Plaid Cymru nominee). see over the 10-year length of the trial (around £1,800 The Commission members have, between them, extensive per vehicle per year). We would expect many of these expertise and experience in financial and constitutional benefits to flow through to the consumer. matters in relation to Wales. I expect the Commission Participation in the trial will be on a voluntary basis to consult widely on its proposals, and to make and at the participants’ own risk; there is no guarantee recommendations likely to have a wide degree of support. that the use of the longer semi-trailers will continue to be permitted beyond the end of the trial period. The The terms of reference for the Commission reflect the trial will run for 10 years, to allow those businesses fact that it will carry out its work in two parts. In part I, wishing to participate the opportunity to cover the the Commission will look at the case for the devolution costs of investment in the longer semi-trailers. Expressions of fiscal powers to the National Assembly for Wales, of interest are invited from today, with the trial starting and recommend a package of fiscal powers that would in January 2012. Information on how to apply can be improve the financial accountability of the Assembly, found on the DfT website. and which are consistent with the United Kingdom’s fiscal objectives. However, the Department wishes the trial to be closely monitored, to ensure that any significant issues, particularly In part II the Commission will look at the powers of on safety, that arise are addressed quickly and to ensure the Assembly, and recommend modifications to improve that the trial is meeting the Department’s objectives. the present constitutional arrangements. The Department will therefore appoint an independent The Government worked closely with the Welsh contractor to monitor and review trial progress. The Government and all the parties in the Assembly in contractor will report to the Department on a four-monthly drafting the terms of reference. The full terms of reference basis; at the end of each trial year the Department will for the Commission are attached at annex A, and I have review progress towards objectives, including considering also placed copies in the Library of the House. any changes to the length of the trial and the numbers The Commission will report to me and, in relation to of trailers involved in the trial. part I, also to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It will Although many of the responses from vehicle operators be supported in its work by a small secretariat of civil supported the development of tractor units with a safer servants drawn from the United Kingdom Government more aerodynamic frontal design, it was evident from and the Welsh Government. It will make every effort to the majority of responses received from vehicle report on its recommendations in relation to part I in manufacturers that they are unlikely to progress with the autumn of 2012, and on part II during 2013. the development of improved frontal designs at this COMMISSION ON DEVOLUTION IN WALES—TERMS OF REFERENCE time. Therefore, the Department has decided not to include tractor units with an extension of up to 0.4 metres An independent Commission will be established to for improved frontal designs in the trial. However, we review the present financial and constitutional arrangements are keeping the situation under review. in Wales. It will carry out its work in two parts: Part I: financial accountability To review the case for the devolution of fiscal powers WALES to the National Assembly for Wales and to recommend a package of powers that would improve the financial accountability of the Assembly, which are consistent Commission on Devolution in Wales with the United Kingdom’s fiscal objectives and are likely to have a wide degree of support. The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Part II: powers of the National Assembly for Wales I informed the House on 19 July that the Government To review the powers of the National Assembly for would establish an independent Commission on Devolution Wales in the light of experience and to recommend in Wales this autumn to review the present financial and modifications to the present constitutional arrangements 27WS Written Ministerial Statements11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS that would enable the United Kingdom Parliament and the boundary between what is devolved and non-devolved; the National Assembly for Wales to better serve the whether modifications to the boundary should be made at people of Wales. this stage; and In undertaking part I, the Commission should: any cross-border implications of such modifications; provide independent advice on the case for improving the financial accountability of the National Assembly for Wales consult widely on any proposed modifications to the current consistent with the fiscal and constitutional framework of boundary; the United Kingdom; consult widely on a package of fiscal powers which would make recommendations on any modifications to the settlement improve the financial accountability of the National Assembly likely to have a wide degree of support; and for Wales; consider and make recommendations on how best to resolve make recommendations on whether a package of fiscal the legal and practical implementation issues from those powers could be devolved to the National Assembly for modifications. Wales which are likely to have a wide degree of support; and consider and make recommendations on how best to resolve The Commission will not consider, in part I, the the legal and practical implementation issues from devolving Holtham Commission’s proposals for funding reform in a package of fiscal powers, including consistency within the Wales, including Welsh Ministers’ existing borrowing United Kingdom. powers, which are being dealt with through a separate Part I will be completed before work on part II begins. bilateral process between the United Kingdom Government In undertaking part II, the Commission should: and the Welsh Government; and, in part II, the structure examine the powers of the National Assembly for Wales, of the National Assembly for Wales, including issues and in particular: relating to the election of Assembly Members. 223W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 224W

the needs of individuals, taking full account of their Written Answers to circumstances as well as that of the local labour market. Providers will be paid primarily for the results they Questions achieve in supporting people into sustained employment. They will be paid more to support those who are particularly disadvantaged in the labour market—up to Monday 10 October 2011 around £14,000 for the hardest to help rather than around £3,000 for a typical jobseekers’ allowance claimant. [Continued from Column 222W] Where a couple have a joint JSA claim and one partner is referred to a Work programme provider, the other partner will be fast-tracked and referred simultaneously to the same provider, facilitating an holistic approach to WORK AND PENSIONS employment support. A New Approach to Child Poverty Turning around the lives of families with multiple problems is a high priority across Government, and Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work DWP is exploring ways to further integrate the Work and Pensions if he will place in the Library a copy of programme with the overall strategy. the additional research referred to in paragraph 1.5 of Outside the Work programme, DWP is using around his Department’s publication A New Approach to £200 million of funding it receives from the European Child Poverty. [60436] Social Fund (ESF) to help families with multiple problems overcome barriers to employment. The provision will Maria Miller: Copies of Dr Tess Ridge’s research be voluntary and will add value to other existing provision ‘Living with Poverty’ and The Office of the Children’s for these families within the area. It will be available in Commissioner’s report ‘Trying to Get By’ have been England only. ESF provision has been designed to align placed in the Library. with the Work programme. This will enable eligible customers to receive continuity of support through Access to Work Programme ESF and then Work programme provision. Departmental Regulation Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how the contract to private Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for providers under the work programme has been Work and Pensions what regulations his Department weighted to help families with multiple problems. introduced between 1 March 2011 and 31 May 2011; [72093] and what the estimated costs of implementation were for those affected in each case. [60325] Chris Grayling: The private, voluntary and public sector organisations delivering the Work programme Chris Grayling: The information is contained in the are free to innovate and design support that addresses following table.

SI number Title Made Laid Coming into force

2011/686 The Employers’ Liability (Compulsory Insurance) 3 March 2011 10 March 2011 6 April 2011 (Amendment) Regulations 2011 2011/688 The Jobseeker’s Allowance (Mandatory Work Activity 9 March 2011 14 March 2011 6 April 2011 Scheme) Regulations 2011 2011/725 The Statutory Maternity Pay (Compensation of 9 March 2011 14 March 2011 6 April 2011 Employers) Amendment Regulations 2011 2011/726 The Pension Protection Fund (Pensions on Divorce 10 March 2011 15 March 2011 6 April 2011 etc: Charges) Regulations 2011 2011/731 The Pension Protection Fund (Pension Compensation 10 March 2011 15 March 2011 6 April 2011 Sharing and Attachment on Divorce etc) Regulations 2011 2011/786 The Social Security (Deferral of Retirement Pensions) 15 March 2011 15 March 2011 5 April 2011 (Amendment) Regulations 2011’ 2011/789 The Jobseeker’s Allowance (Work Experience) 14 March 2011 26 January 2011 5 April 2011 (Amendment) Regulations 2011 2011/830 The Social Security Benefits Up-rating Regulations 17 March 2011 21 March 2011 11 April 2011 2011 2011/839 The Financial Assistance Scheme (Revaluation and 17 March 2011 31 January 2011 31 March 2011 Indexation Amendments) Regulations 2011 2011/917 The Jobseeker’s Allowance (Employment, Skills and 28 March 2011 31 March 2011 20 May 2011 Enterprise Scheme) Regulations 2011 2011/1024 The Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions 31 March 2011 3 February 2011 1 April 2011 and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 2011/1026 The Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) 31 March 2011 3 February 2011 1 April 2011 (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 2011/1245 The Pensions Act 2007 (Abolition of Contracting-out 12 May 2011 16 May 2011 6 April 2012 for Defined Contribution Pension Schemes) (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2011 225W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 226W

SI number Title Made Laid Coming into force

2011/1294 The Occupational Pension Schemes (Contracting-out) 18 May 2011 23 May 2011 1 October 2011 Amendment Regulations 2011 2011/1349 The Employment and Support Allowance (Work- 26 May 2011 28 February 2011 1 June 2011 Related Activity) Regulations 2011

The Department publishes impact assessments for Disability living allowance mobility component in payment with blood disorders regulation that has a cost to or benefit for business, civil as the main disabling condition Great society organisations or the public sector and copies of Britain and these are placed in the Library of the House. abroad Higher Lower Nil Disability Living Allowance: Autism November 6,200 4,500 500 1,200 2010 November 6,200 4,300 500 1,400 Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of November 6,400 4,200 600 1,600 the effects in reductions in entitlement to disability 2008 living allowance on those suffering from autism. [72084] Disability living allowance care component in payment with blood disorders as the main disabling condition Maria Miller: We are still developing the assessment Great Britain for personal independence payment and it is too early and to say what its impact will be. We do, however, believe abroad Higher Middle Lower Nil that the criteria will take better account of the impact November 6,200 2,200 2,000 1,100 900 of autistic spectrum disorders than the current criteria 2010 for disability living allowance, which do not always November 6,200 2,200 2,100 1,100 800 reflect the needs of disabled people with mental, intellectual, 2009 cognitive and development impairments. For example, November 6,400 2,100 2,100 1,300 900 the introduction of communication is a significant departure 2008 from disability living allowance and one which will Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 100. ensure we better take into account the effect of impairments 2. Figures are adjusted to be consistent with the overall caseload from the that impact on sight, hearing, speech and comprehension. WPLS. 3. The preferred data source for benefit statistics is 100% Work and Pensions I have met with the National Autistic Society to hear Longitudinal Study. However, the 5% sample data are generally the preferred their views on disability living allowance reform firsthand. source for analysis on disabling condition as information is more complete for We hope to continue working closely with them and disabling condition on the 5% sample (Some recipients of DLA who transferred from the AA system may not have been allocated a specific disabling condition other disability organisations as we continue to develop code. This problem can be corrected on the sample data but not on the WPLS the assessment criteria and move towards implementation data. The number of cases affected is decreasing over time). of personal independence payment. 4. A diagnosed medical condition does not mean that someone is automatically entitled to DLA. Entitlement is dependent on an assessment of how much help We published our initial proposals for the assessment someone needs with personal care and/or mobility because of their disability. criteria in May and sought views from disabled people These statistics are only collected for administrative purposes. 5. This blood disorders group includes also includes conditions such as anaemia. and their organisations on this draft. As part of this 6. DLA recipients may be in receipt of both the mobility and care components. officials met with the National Autistic Society and are In November 2010 for example around about two thirds of recipients with a currently considering the society’s written response to main disabling condition of ‘Blood Disorders’ are in receipt of both components. Source: the informal consultation. We also tested the initial DWP Information Directorate: Sample data (5%) draft criteria over the summer to enable us to better understand their likely impact, which included specifically Disability: Atos Healthcare looking at how they affected people with autistic spectrum disorders. Once we have considered both the feedback Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for received and the findings from the testing, we intend to Work and Pensions if he will discuss with Atos publish a second draft of the assessment criteria later in Healthcare the (a) availability of disabled parking at the autumn. and (b) accessibility to disabled access to the employment and support allowance Atos assessment Disability Living Allowance: Diseases centre in Romford. [71795]

Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: Blackburn House, where Romford and Pensions how many people received disability Medical Examination Centre (MEC) is situated in the living allowance for care needs or mobility restrictions middle of Romford, has no visitor parking on site resulting from sickle cell disease or thalassaemia in (a) although there are two parking bays for use by blue 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11. [64788] badge holders in Eastern road close to the MEC entrance. There are several secure car parks nearby, including the Maria Miller: The information is not available in the Liberty multi-story car park on Western road, which format requested. Sickle cell disease and thalassaemia has designated spaces for disabled drivers. are categorised as part of the blood disorders group. With regard to disabled access to the MEC, the The information relating to numbers of disability living landlord has recently installed a new entrance door with allowance recipients where blood disorder is listed as a release button that will open automatically and there the main disabling condition for each of the years is a security guard available to give assistance to any requested is shown in the following tables: visitor who requires it. 227W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 228W

Within the MEC there is also an accessible toilet, working. The Government are keen to promote flexible dual height reception counter and a portable induction working and have a strong commitment to greater loop amongst other measures available to assist disabled family friendly working practices and have committed, people. in the coalition agreement, to consult on extending the Romford MEC is approved by the Department for right to request flexible working to all employees. The Work and Pensions (DWP) as an appropriate location public consultation process recently ended and we intend for medical assessments in connection with DWP benefit to respond to comments by the end of the year. claims and is a well equipped examination facility. Jobcentre Plus advisers work closely with parents and The MEC is on the second floor of Blackburn House. carers to help them enter the labour market. Advisers Atos Healthcare adheres to DWP health and safety can provide a parent or carer with a ’Better Off Calculation’ advice; when it is identified prior to assessment that a to illustrate how they can be financially better off in client will be unable to use stairs to safely evacuate in work. This calculation includes those elements of tax the event of an emergency, they will either be offered a credits which provide support with child care, including home visit or an appointment at another convenient for disabled children. MEC. This information is identified from the customer’s Advisers also have access to a discretionary fund to completed employment and support allowance pre- provide financial support for child care and replacement assessment questionnaire on page 3 where claimants are care costs, which the parent or carer may need to asked if they are able to get up and down stairs. address, before moving into work. Support for child It should also be noted that the map/directions provided care costs and replacement care is available to enable with the appointment letter do state that the MEC is parents and carers to take up training and other work located on the second floor and that, in the event of an preparation support, while funding is also made available emergency evacuation, it is 36 steps to the ground floor. to manage the transition to employment once the parent Claimants who feel that they would have difficulty in or carer has been offered employment. negotiating the 36 steps on their own are asked to In March this year, we published a green paper, contact the Appointments Helpdesk for assistance and ’Support and aspiration: A new approach to special if appropriate make an alternative appointment. educational needs and disability’, which set out what Depending on where the claimant lives, the Medical the Government will do to support disabled children Examination Centres at Marylebone, Highgate or and their families. Chelmsford could all be within the agreed travelling Local authorities have a statutory duty to secure times. sufficient child care to meet the needs of parents in These MECs all have ground floor facilities. Alternatively, their area, to enable them to work, or undertake arrangements for a domiciliary visit can be made to learning or training leading to work. This duty specifically carry out the assessment. requires local authorities to secure child care provision Atos Healthcare are working with DWP to review all for disabled children up to the age of 18, and all local non ground floor assessment centres to identify additional authorities are provided with financial support to meet ground floor rooms that may become available and, in the duty. future the department and ATOS Healthcare have agreed Support for child care costs will be provided in universal that all new assessment centres will have ground floor credit by an additional element, and we aim to extend assessment rooms. support to those working fewer than 16 hours. We are still considering what rates to set. Disability: Cars Employment and Support Allowance Claire Perry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many specially adapted motor cars for disabled drivers have been provided (a) nationally Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (b) to residents of Wiltshire in each of the last five and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 9 September years. [72086] 2011, Official Report, column 907W, on Employment and Support Allowance, what the equivalent figures are Maria Miller: The Department works closely with for each benefits area in Wales. [72153] Motability but it is an independent charity and is wholly responsible for the administration of the Motability Chris Grayling: During 2009-10 and 2010-11, claimants scheme. They have agreed to write separately to the of employment and support allowance and its predecessor hon. Lady with such information as they have available. benefits who lived in Wales, could partake in Jobcentre Disability: Children Plus Pathways to Work if they lived in the Jobcentre Plus districts of: Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work South Wales Valleys and Pensions what steps he has taken to assist parents South West Wales. and carers of disabled children to work through the Those who lived in the Jobcentre Plus districts of: provision of help with disabled child care. [71910] North and Mid Wales Maria Miller: We are committed to improving South East Wales choice for and the experience of, families with disabled could be referred from Jobcentre Plus to Action for children. Many parents and carers of disabled children Employment (A4e) via the Provider-Led Pathways to tell us they want to combine paid work with their caring Work programme, once they had undertaken an initial responsibilities, but need access to good quality flexible Work-Focussed Interview with Jobcentre Plus. 229W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 230W

The table shows the number of mandatory and voluntary Jobcentre Plus districts, after being referred by Jobcentre Plus starts in each quarter of 2009-10 and 2010-11 to: . following their initial Work-Focussed Interview1: Jobcentre Plus Pathways to Work—for customers who lived in 1 Source: South Wales Valleys and South West Wales Jobcentre Plus districts DWP Jobcentre Plus and Provider-Led Pathways databases. Figures Provider-Led Pathways to Work—for customers who go on to are rounded to the nearest 10, totals may not sum due to rounding. start with A4e in North and Mid Wales and South East Wales

Jobcentre Plus Pathways Provider-Led Pathways—A4e Quarter of starting Pathways with Jobcentre South Wales Plus Wales Valleys South West Wales North and Mid Wales South East Wales

1 April 2009 to 30 June 2009 10,950 4,340 3,850 1,150 1,610 1 July 2009 to 30 September 2009 10,690 4,410 3,790 1,210 1,290 1 October 2009 to 31 December 2009 9,810 3,860 3,380 1,210 1,360 1 January 2010 to 31 March 2010 8,740 4,200 3,610 430 490 1 April 2010 to 30 June 2010 8,090 3,830 3,260 500 500 1 July 2010 to 30 September 2010 7,570 3,650 3,130 410 380 1 October 2010 to 31 December 2010 6,960 3,470 3,020 250 240 1 January 2011 to 31 January 2011 2,320 1,210 1,110 0 0 Total 65,130 28,970 25,140 5,160 5,860

Official statistics are routinely published for employment It takes account of fluctuating and variable conditions programmes such as Pathways to Work. Official statistics and people are given every opportunity to explain how on Pathways to Work starts and job entries are currently their condition affects them as an individual. As part of available up to January 2011, and are published at: the WCA, a healthcare professional will provide advice http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ on when they think a claimant’s condition may have index.php?page=ib_ref_p2w changed sufficiently that a review of their circumstances is necessary. The Department uses this advice to decide Employment and Support Allowance: Atos Healthcare when to reassess claimants. Employment Schemes: Young People Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the appeal process is for a claimant of employment and support allowance placed Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in the work-related activity group, who has been and Pensions when he plans to publish his diagnosed by both Atos and a GP as suffering from a participation strategy to maximise participation of 16 to 24-year-olds in education, training or work. [72045] degenerative illness. [71796] Chris Grayling: Work on the participation strategy is Chris Grayling: If an employment and support allowance currently under way and is being led jointly by this (ESA) claimant disagrees with the outcome of a work Department along with the Department for Business capability assessment (WCA), they are able to ask the Innovation and Skills and the Department for Education. office who made the decision to explain it, ask to have The Ministry of Justice and the Department of Health the decision reconsidered by Jobcentre Plus, or appeal are also involved. As set out in the Social Mobility against the decision to an independent tribunal run by document ‘Opening Doors, Breaking Barriers’, it is due Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. This is the to be published autumn 2011 and will consider issues case irrespective of the health condition or disability for young people not in employment, education, or they may have. training, and the barriers they face. If the claimant wishes to appeal against the decision to an independent tribunal, they will usually need to do Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work this within one month of the decision they are appealing and Pensions how many sector-based work academies against, although late appeals may be accepted in some he plans to establish in 2011; and for what areas he circumstances. proposes they will be responsible. [72046] Under the Welfare Reform Bill proposal to require consideration of revision of a decision before an appeal, Chris Grayling: Sector-based work academies are being the claimant would be required to go through the established in sectors with high volumes of current local reconsideration process before being able to make an vacancies. The model is flexible and can be tailored to appeal to the tribunal. This new approach would increase meet sector and local needs. As a locally-driven initiative the likelihood that the decision to appeal would be the geographical distribution and number of sector-based informed by the claimant’s view of whether reconsideration work academies will depend on the appetite of employers, had provided them with an adequate ‘second opinion’ training providers and claimants across the Jobcentre and a clear justification for the original decision. Plus districts. The work capability assessment is based on the premise Jobcentre Plus, working in partnership with local that eligibility for ESA should not be based on the employers and training providers, will determine the diagnosis of a specific condition, but rather on the way most appropriate offer to meet the need of the local that the condition limits an individual’s functional capability. labour market. There is no specific target for the number 231W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 232W of sector-based work academies to be established in Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. 2011. However, we anticipate the participation of up to The information requested falls within the responsibility 50,000 benefit claimants in sector-based work academies of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority by the end of March 2013. to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2011: Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I and Pensions how his proposed sector-based work have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking academies will be funded; who he proposes may apply what recent estimate has been made of the number of people not to establish such academies; and if he will make a in employment, education or training (a) nationally and (b) in statement. [72047] Milton Keynes. (71985) The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles labour Chris Grayling: Jobcentre Plus is seeking to establish market statistics for local areas from the Annual Population partnerships both with local employers in sectors with Survey (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) high volumes of current local vacancies and with training definitions. providers, to establish sector-based work academies that For the period January 2010 to December 2010, the number of meet the needs of the local labour market. The Department people aged 16 to 64 not in education, employment or training for Work and Pensions has allocated £13.1 million to was 31,000 in Milton Keynes and 8,690,000 in the UK. support the implementation and co-ordination of the National and local area estimates for many labour market initiative. statistics, including employment, unemployment and JSA count are available on the Nomis website at: The pre-employment training element of the sector-based http://www.nomisweb.co.uk work academy model will be funded from the Department for Business Innovation and Skills’ Adult Skills budget. Employment: Scotland It will also be acceptable for employers to fund and deliver the training element of a sector-based work academy themselves if they prefer. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what plans he has relating to the future employment of local authority employees in Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Scotland who administer benefits advice following and Pensions how he proposes that young people will implementation of his legislative proposals on welfare be routed from work experience schemes to reform. [72011] apprenticeships. [72049] Chris Grayling: Universal credit will be delivered by Chris Grayling: Work experience and apprenticeships DWP drawing on the expertise of HMRC and local are central to improving the prospects of young unemployed authorities. The best of the current capability will be people across the country. used to deliver the new service, taking the opportunity Overall we are funding up to 100,000 work experience to modernise and improve it to deliver better efficiency placements over two years. This will enable young people for the taxpayer and better service for claimants. As to undertake a period of valuable work experience DWP start to build the organisation to deliver universal lasting between two and eight weeks. Claimants in the credit, the role of providing benefits advice will form 18 to 24 age group are eligible for work experience and part of our thinking and we continue to work collaboratively from October 2011 we will be widening eligibility to across HMRC and local authorities to enable a future include 16 and 17 year olds in receipt of jobseeker’s proof design to meet claimant needs. allowance. This Government are funding up to 250,000 more Housing Benefit apprenticeships in England over the next four years. There will be clear routes into apprenticeships to widen Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and access to the programme and clear routes into higher Pensions how many households were claiming housing level skills training including, but not exclusively, higher benefit in each local authority in Great Britain (a) in apprenticeships. We are committed to strengthening the total and (b) in respect of (i) shared, (ii) one-bedroom, links between work experience and apprenticeships. From (iii) two-bedroom, (iv) three-bedroom and (v) four- October this year young people will be able to have their bedroom properties in May 2011. [71229] work experience placements extended by up to four weeks where employers make a firm offer of an Steve Webb: The requested information cannot be apprenticeship and that offer is accepted. This will be provided by bedroom size. The Department does not one of the routes that will help to maximise the number collect administrative information on the number of of young people moving off benefits into the 40,000 bedrooms for accommodation in the social rented sector. extra apprenticeships, targeted at unemployed young In the private rented sector although the local housing people, that were announced in the 2011 Budget. allowance rate provides information on the bedroom size for which local housing allowance is payable it is Employment: Milton Keynes not necessarily a reflection of the property size occupied as claimants can choose to over or under occupy. Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for The Family Resources Survey does collect information Work and Pensions what recent estimate has been on the number of bedrooms in a household however made of the number of people not in employment, this is not sufficiently robust to present by local authority. education or training (a) nationally and (b) in Milton A copy of the Housing Benefit caseload as of May Keynes. [71985] 2011 has been placed in the Library. 233W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 234W

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Housing Benefit: Leeds Pensions what the (a) actual and (b) percentage change in the number of households claiming local Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work housing allowance in each local authority area in Great and Pensions what estimate he has made of the effects Britain was between June 2010 and May 2011. [71230] of (a) the changes in housing benefit and (b) the £26,000 benefits cap on households by family size in (i) Steve Webb: The information has been placed in the Leeds and (ii) the UK. [71908] Library. Chris Grayling: The information is as follows: (a) In Great Britain, it is estimated that housing Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and benefit claimants assessed under the local housing allowance Pensions how many applications were made for rules will lose on average £12 per week as a result of the housing benefit discretionary payments in each local changes that were introduced in April 2011. The average authority area in 2010-11; and how many households loss in Leeds is estimated at £7. Impacts by family size received housing benefit discretionary payment. [71232] are not available, although the Department has published statistics on losses broken down by bedroom entitlement. Steve Webb: The information is not available. The Average loss per claimant from the April 2011 local housing allowance reforms Department does hold some management information £ on the number of awards in each local authority area, Great Britain Leeds but this has not been through sufficient quality assurance for publication. Shared 7 3 1-bedroom 11 7 2-bed room 12 8 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 3-bedroom 15 7 and Pensions what progress he is making in his 4-bedroom 22 12 [72056] proposals to cap housing benefit. 5-bedroom 57 21 Overall 12 7 Steve Webb: From April 2011, we introduced overall weekly maximum local housing allowance rates for (b) The Department’s estimates for the impacts of each category of property as well as the removal of the the proposed overall, benefit cap in Great Britain can be five-bedroom rate. found in the impact assessment published to support the cap’s inclusion in the Welfare Reform Bill. The The new capped rates are: impact assessment can be found on the Department’s £250 a week for a one-bedroom property internet site at: £290 a week for a two-bedroom property http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/household-benefit-cap-wr2011- ia.pdf £340 a week for a three-bedroom property Information on its specific effects in Leeds is not £400 a week for a four-bedroom property or larger available as sample sizes are too small to yield reliable There is provision for existing claimants to have more results for areas smaller than the overall impacts for time to adjust to any reduction in entitlement by giving Great Britain. them up to nine months transitional protection from the anniversary date of their claim. Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work We have also provided a substantial increase in the and Pensions what proportion of recipients of (a) discretionary housing payment budget, which will allow housing benefit and (b) council tax benefit are in work local authorities to give additional support and help in (i) Leeds and (ii) the UK. [71909] people through the transition. Steve Webb: The information as requested is not available. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with A breakdown of housing benefit (HB)/council tax (a) the National Housing Federation and (b) benefit (CTB) recipients by employment status is only individual housing associations regarding plans to available for recipients who are not also on a passported restrict housing benefit payments where the claimant is benefit (income support, jobseekers allowance (income- based), employment and support allowance (income deemed to be under-occupying their home. [72165] based), or pension credit (guaranteed credit). Non- passported recipients represent around one third of all Steve Webb: The Minister for Welfare Reform, my HB/CTB recipients. Available information is shown in noble Friend Lord Freud, has met with the National the following tables: Housing Federation and various housing associations Housing benefit recipients by passported status, in Leeds local authority, and to discuss welfare reform issues including housing benefit Great Britain. May 2011 and is always receptive to contributions they have to Non- make to the debate. DWP officials have also met and passported: All HB Non- of which in continue to engage with the National Housing Federation, recipients Passported passported employment the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations and a number of housing associations on this measure. A Great 4,879,180 3,237,770 1,638,770 803,070 questionnaire was recently issued to 200 local authorities Britain Leeds local 67,050 46,650 20,400 8,960 and housing associations specifically about the under- authority occupancy measure and 56 responses have been received. 235W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 236W

Council tax benefit recipients by passported status, in Leeds local authority, and The number of housing benefit (HB) recipients in the Great Britain. May 2011 Vale of Clwyd parliamentary constituency at January Non- passported: 2011 was 6,570. All CTB Non- of which in Notes: recipients Passported passported employment 1. Parliamentary constituency is based on the address of the Great 5,852,130 3,910,290 1,933,630 697,080 HB/CTB recipient. Note that local authority data is based on the Britain authority administering the benefit claim. It is possible for the Leeds local 76,480 52,720 23,760 7,870 recipient to reside in a different LA to the one administering their authority HB/CTB claim. Therefore it may not always be possible to make Notes: direct comparisons between parliamentary constituency and local 1. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. authority data. Totals may not sum due to rounding. 2. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Proportions to the nearest 2. Recipients are as at the second Thursday of the month. one decimal place. 3. The figure has been rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. An extended payment is a payment that may be received for a further four weeks when they start working full-time, work more hours or earn more money. Innovation Fund 4. Passported status does not include recipients with unknown passported status. 5. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The data are and Pensions if he will ensure that resources from the available monthly from November 2008 and May 2011 are the most recent Innovation Fund are made available to support the available. re-employment of skilled and experienced careers 6. Council tax benefit figures exclude any single adult rebate cases. 7. These data refer to people receiving housing benefit not in receipt of a advisers recently made unemployed as a result of the passported benefit and are recorded as being in employment if their local closure of Connexions services. [72095] authority has recorded employment income from either the main claimant, or partner of claimant (if applicable), in calculating the housing benefit award. People receiving passported benefits who are working part-time cannot be Chris Grayling: The Innovation Fund will support identified and are therefore not included in this analysis. disadvantaged young people, and those at risk of 8. DWP does not hold benefit statistics for Northern Ireland. Benefit statistics are published on the Department for Social Development Northern Ireland’s disadvantage, aged 14 years and over. Any organisation (DSDNI) website at: in the public, private or voluntary sector is eligible to http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/index/stats_and_research/benefit_publications.htm bid for the Innovation Fund, as an investor/ intermediary Source: Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) or as a delivery organisation within a social investment partnership. The second phase of the Innovation Fund Housing Benefit: Mental Illness will be launched in the autumn and projects are being selected on the basis of a competitive process. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with Payments from the fund will be made on the basis of charities and mental health workers on the effects on the educational and employment related outcomes achieved single people under 35 years with a mental illness of by the participants. However, the Innovation Fund provision changes to the local housing allowance shared must not duplicate existing programmes or funding arrangements—the provision needs to be genuinely accommodation rate. [70146] innovative and deliver support to individuals which Steve Webb: We have regular meetings with voluntary would not otherwise be available to them. organisations and groups that specifically focus on mental health issues. We have considered carefully representations Jobseeker’s Allowance made directly to us and responses to the consultation held by the Social Security Advisory Committee on the shared accommodation rate change. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Discretionary housing payments can be paid to those and Pensions what criteria his Department uses to in receipt of housing benefit, who face a shortfall in ensure information and updates on legislation and meeting their contractual rent. These payments are very procedures passed to all (a) staff handling jobseeker’s flexible and can be considered where, in the local authority’s allowance, (b) national helplines, (c) voluntary opinion, further financial assistance with housing costs agencies and (d) claimants. [71882] is required. Housing Benefit: Wales Chris Grayling: The information is as follows: (a) Standard processes exist within Jobcentre Plus to Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work ensure that changes such as the introduction of new and Pensions how many people received housing legislation are notified to staff in advance. This includes benefit in the Vale of Clywd in each month since a four week notice period of any changes to internal November 2008. [72029] guidance and supporting products, to ensure that all Steve Webb: The Department regularly publishes monthly staff are fully aware of the scope and affect of the housing benefit case loads at local authority area level change before the policy or process changes are which are available from November 2008 to May 2011 implemented. A monthly strategic forward look of change, on its website at: including the impacts on operational capacity to absorb http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbctb change, is also available to staff. Additional products, However, parliamentary constituency breakdowns have such as Learning and Development, are produced to only been produced as a one-off exercise for January help staff understand the changes. 2011, and are published at: (b) Assuming ‘national helplines’ refer to those operated http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ by DWP, the same response applies as (a) above, about hb_ctb_parlc_jan11.xls how we inform staff. 237W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 238W

(c) There are no set criteria for disseminating information Steve Webb: The independent Making Automatic to voluntary agencies, i.e. the advice sector. Each instance Enrolment Work review looked at the impact of the is judged on its own merits. The primary channel for reforms on employers and specifically examined whether communicating with this sector is the DWP Adviser micro employers should be excluded from the reforms. and Intermediaries site, which has links to legislation It concluded that they should not because this would and guidance. Changes are communicated through this exclude 1.5 million people working for small businesses site, through direct mailings to national customer from the opportunity to save for their retirement. organisations and at meetings with representatives of We do, however, want to make the implementation of the sector. the reforms as straightforward for employers as possible (d) To provide claimants with information about and the Pensions Bill 2011 includes measures that will changes to legislation, the Department takes a two-part reduce the regulatory impact on business including: approach: An increase in the earnings threshold for automatic enrolment; For new claimants, information is updated in our printed An optional waiting period of up to 3 months before an leaflets, factsheets and forms, and on our Directgov information employee needs to be automatically enrolled; and pages. Where appropriate we may highlight that the new information A simpler way for employers to check that existing defined is a change. For printed materials, we aim to update products to a contribution schemes meet the required standards. schedule that minimises unnecessary cost (for example at a regular In addition, the National Employment Savings Trust review stage, or when old stock needs to be reprinted). (NEST) has been established to ensure that all, employers For existing claimants, changes are notified through our existing have access to suitable, low cost pension provision. relationship, either during regular fortnightly signing in Jobcentres, through letters or through direct contact (such as by phone or in NEST has been designed to make compliance with the adviser interviews). reforms as straightforward as possible for all employers, and will be particularly suited to the needs of small and New Enterprise Allowance micro business. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Poverty and Pensions through what channels his Department makes information on the New Enterprise Allowance Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work available. [72044] and Pensions what proportion of households in poverty have at least one person working. [72030] Chris Grayling: Background information about the new enterprise allowance and its administration, together Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion with a list of the Department’s delivery partners in of various groups of individuals living in poverty across Jobcentre Plus districts, can be found on the Department’s the UK are published in Households Below Average website: Income Series (HBAI, 2009/10). This uses household http://www.dwp.gov.uk/adviser/updates/new-enterprise- income adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for household size allowance/ using various thresholds of low income poverty. This Information on the new enterprise allowance scheme analysis looks at household level poverty, using a threshold itself is available to claimants online, through the Directgov of the 60% of contemporary median equivalised disposable website: household income http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Jobseekers/ The following table shows the number and proportion LookingForWork/DG_173931 of households, where at least one person is working, Jobcentre Plus front-line staff also provide claimants that have income below 60% of contemporary median with information about the scheme when they attend household income, both Before and After Housing the Jobcentre for regular interventions. Costs in 2009-10, the most recent data available. Information about the performance of the new enterprise Number in millions and percentage of households with income below 60% of allowance scheme will be released as part of the pre-Work median income Before Housing Costs (BHC) and After Housing Costs (AHC) programme official statistics covering Get Britain Working where at least one person is working Measures. The first release is due to be published on 16 Million (and %) of households November 2011. More information can be found on the BHC AHC Department’s website: 2009-10 1.7 (36) 2.5 (43) http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wp Notes: 1. These statistics are based on the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) Pensions series, sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for of living. Work and Pensions what funding his Department has 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This includes allocated to explaining the planned changes to earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income pensions and their consequences to businesses. [72208] tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. Steve Webb: I refer the hon. Member to the written 3. Figures have been presented on a Before Housing Cost and an After Housing Cost basis. For Before Housing Costs, housing costs are not deducted from answer I gave the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr income, while for After Housing Costs they are. Cunningham) on 15 September 2011, Official Report, 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to uncertainty. column 1360W. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 5. Proportions of households in low-income households have been rounded to Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for the nearest whole percentage point and numbers of households have been Work and Pensions whether he plans to offset the costs rounded to the nearest 100,000. incurred by micro firms in implementing pension Source: Households Below Average Income, DWP changes in 2012. [72209] 239W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 240W

Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work published in the households below average income (HBAI) and Pensions what benefits are claimed by (a) working series sourced from the Family Resources Survey. HBAI households in poverty without children, (b) workless uses household income adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for households in poverty without children, (c) lone household size and composition, to provide a proxy for parents in poverty who work, (d) lone parents in standard of living. This analysis looks at household poverty who do not work, (e) couple parents in level poverty, using a threshold of 60% of contemporary poverty who work, (f) couple parents in poverty who median equivalised disposable household income. do not work, (g) workless households in poverty with Data is provided in the following tables for the United children, who have one or more adult who is disabled Kingdom for 2009/10, the most recent year for which and (h) workless households in poverty without data is available. children, who have one or more adult who is disabled; Tables 1 and 2 as follows show the proportion of each what estimate he has made of the average amount of of the household and family types specified in receipt of time members of each such category spent on each type of state support. The sample size of the administering benefits and benefits claims in the latest Family Resources Survey is not sufficient to provide period for which figures are available; what (i) estimates below the United Kingdom level. additions and (ii) mental health problems affecting people in each such category have been reported to his The Department for Work and Pensions does not an Department; and what the incidence of such estimate of the average amount of time members of households is in each geographic area. [72212] each household and family types specified spent on administering benefits and benefits claims. It also has no information on the additions and mental health Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion problems affecting people in each household and family of various groups of individuals living in poverty are type have reported.

Table 1a: Percentage of each family or household type who are in receipt of each type of state support, before housing costs (part 1) Percentage Family or household type Working households Workless households Lone parent families in poverty without in poverty without Lone parent families in poverty who do not State support type children children in poverty who work work

Working tax credit 8 — 52 — Child tax credit — 1 75 73 Income support 2 15 7 57 Pension credit 2 8 — — Housing benefit 11 43 25 72 Council tax benefit (support for rates in Northern Ireland) 13 58 26 77 Retirement pension 7 13 — — Widow’s benefits —143 Jobseeker’s allowance 11 27 1 9 Employment and support allowance 2513 Incapacity benefit 3 17 — 6 Severe disablement allowance — 1 — — Attendance allowance 1——— Carer’s allowance 1212 Disability living allowance (care component) 3814 Disability living allowance (mobility component) 4 8 — 3 Industrial injuries disablement benefit — — 1 — Armed Forces Compensation scheme ———— Child benefit — — 95 92

On any income related benefit 21 65 31 87 On any non-income related benefit 29 48 95 95 All in receipt of benefit 43 81 96 97 All in receipt of tax credits 6 — 75 73 All not in receipt of state support 38 75 97 97 Population (millions) 0.9 1.2 0.1 0.4

Table 1b: Percentage of each family or household type who are in receipt of each type of state support, before housing costs (part 2) Percentage Family or household type Workless households Workless households in poverty with in poverty without Couple parent Couple parent children, who have one children, who have one families in poverty families in poverty or more adult who is or more adult who is State support received who work who do not work disabled disabled

Working tax credit 36 1 1 — Child tax credit 61 70 75 1 241W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 242W

Table 1b: Percentage of each family or household type who are in receipt of each type of state support, before housing costs (part 2) Percentage Family or household type Workless households Workless households in poverty with in poverty without Couple parent Couple parent children, who have one children, who have one families in poverty families in poverty or more adult who is or more adult who is State support received who work who do not work disabled disabled

Income support 1 21 40 25 Pension credit — 1 2 11 Housing benefit 8 58 67 53 Council tax benefit (support for rates in Northern Ireland) 11 72 81 73 Retirement pension — 1 5 16 Widow’s benefits — — 1 1 Jobseeker’s allowance 5 39 18 16 Employment and support allowance 1698 Incapacity benefit 2 13 22 33 Severe disablement allowance — — 1 1 Attendance allowance — — — 1 Carer’s allowance 1673 Disability living allowance (care component) 3 12 21 16 Disability living allowance (mobility component) 2 8 14 16 Industrial injuries disablement benefit — — 2 — Armed Forces Compensation scheme — 1 — — Child benefit 93 92 94 1

On any income related benefit 16 79 85 80 On any non-income related benefit 93 93 97 67 All in receipt of benefit 94 97 99 95 All in receipt of tax credits 61 70 62 — All not in receipt of state support 94 97 85 89 Population (millions) 0.6 0.3 0.2 0.6 Source: Households Below Average Income 1994/95-2009/10, DWP

Table 2a: Percentage of each family or household type who are in receipt of each type of state support, before housing costs (part 1) Percentage Family or household type Working households Workless households Lone parent families in poverty without in poverty without Lone parent families in poverty who do not State support received children children in poverty who work work

Working tax credit 8 — 55 — Child tax credit — 1 78 79 Income support 2 19 9 68 Pension credit 2 7 — — Housing benefit 13 53 35 82 Council tax benefit (support for rates in Northern Ireland) 14 64 31 84 Retirement pension 6 12 — — Widow’s benefits —122 Jobseeker’s allowance 10 26 1 8 Employment and support allowance 2 5 — 3 Incapacity benefit 3 19 — 5 Severe disablement allowance — 1 — — Attendance allowance ———— Carer’s allowance — 2 — 2 Disability living allowance (care component) 3 11 1 3 Disability living allowance (mobility component) 3 9 — 3 Industrial injuries disablement benefit ———— Armed Forces Compensation scheme ———— Child benefit — 1 94 95

On any income related benefit 21 70 39 92 On any non-income related benefit 25 49 95 97 All in receipt of benefit 38 82 95 98 All in receipt of tax credits 5 — 78 79 All not in receipt of state support 33 77 97 98 Population (millions) 1.3 1.4 0.2 0.6 243W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 244W

Table 2b: Percentage of each family or household type who are in receipt of each type of state support, before housing costs (part 2) Percentage Family or household type Workless households Workless households in poverty with in poverty without Couple parent Couple parent children, who have children, who have families in poverty families in poverty one or more adult one or more adult State support received who work who do not work whoisdisabled who is disabled

Working tax credit 36 1 — — Child tax credit 63 72 78 1 Income support 1 25 49 31 Pensioncredit —229 Housing benefit 12 65 78 67 Council tax benefit (support for rates in Northern Ireland) 13 77 86 79 Retirement pension — 1 3 14 Widow’s benefits — — 1 1 Jobseeker’s allowance 5 39 16 16 Employment and support allowance 1597 Incapacity benefit 1 14 21 33 Severe disablement allowance —111 Attendance allowance — — — 1 Carer’s allowance 1782 Disability living allowance(care component) 2 16 21 20 Disability living allowance (mobility component) 2 13 17 17 Industrial injuries disablement benefit — — 1 — Armed Forces Compensation scheme ———— Child benefit 93 93 95 1

On any income related benefit 19 82 91 85 On any non-income related benefit 93 94 98 68 All in receipt of benefit 94 98 100 96 All in receipt of tax credits 63 72 66 — All not in receipt of state support 94 98 89 91 Population (millions) 1.0 0.3 0.3 0.7 Notes: 1. These statistics are based on households below average income (HBAI) data available at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai_arc 2. These statistics are based on households below average income (HBAI) data sourced from the 2009/10 Family Resources survey (FRS). This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 3. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. 4. Figures have been presented on a before housing cost and an after housing cost basis. For before housing costs, housing costs are not deducted from income, while for after housing costs they are. 5. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. The sample size for lone parent families in poverty who work is particularly small, so results for this family type should be treated with particular caution. 6. Benefit receipt is based on self-assessment and therefore may be subject to misreporting. The Family Resources Survey is known to undercount receipt of certain benefits. 7. The population groups include subgroups of families and households. Families are defined as a single adult or a married or cohabiting couple and any dependent children; from January 2006 same-sex partners (civil partners and cohabitees) are included in the same benefit unit. A household is made up of one of more families. 8. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. 9. Proportions of families and households have been rounded to the nearest percentage point. 10. Numbers of families and households have been rounded to the nearest hundred thousand. 11. “—“ indicates less than 0.5%. 12. Poverty has been defined as: Relative low income: households with equivalised households incomes below 60% of contemporary median household income, before or after housing costs. 13. For this analysis, disability is defined as having any long-standing illness, disability or impairment that leads to a substantial difficulty with one or more areas of the individual’s life. Everyone classified as disabled under this definition would also be classified as disabled under the Equality Act 2010 (and the Disability Discrimination Act which was in force at the time of the survey). However, some individuals classified as disabled under the Equality Act 2010 would notbe captured by this definition, as the Family Resources survey, the source of the households below average income series, does not fully collect this information. 14. No adjustment is made to disposable household income to take into account any additional costs that may be incurred due to an illness or disability, because research shows these vary significantly in level and nature, and there is no general agreement on how to measure these costs. 15. A household or family is defined as workless if no-one within the household or family is classified as working; otherwise the household or family is defined as working, so is wider than just those individuals classified as unemployed. 16. We have excluded households or families that do not contain any working-age adults. The categories specified are not mutually exclusive and the same individuals can be counted in more than one group. Source: Households Below Average Income 1994/95-2009/10, DWP 245W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 246W

Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (HBAI) series. HBAI uses household income adjusted and Pensions how many and what proportion of (or ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, workless households that are in poverty and have one to provide a proxy for standard of living. or more adults who is disabled and one or more adults The following table shows the proportion and number of working age also include at least one child. [72213] of workless households that are in poverty also include (a) one or more and (b) two or more disabled adults. Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion Households that contain only adults above pension age of various groups of individuals living in poverty are have been excluded from this analysis. published in the Households Below Average Income Proportion and number of workless households that are in poverty with at least (HBAI) series. HBAI uses household income adjusted one working-age adult that also include (a) one or more and (b) two or more (or ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, disabled adults, United Kingdom, 2009-10 to provide a proxy for standard of living. Before housing costs After housing costs The following table shows the proportion and number Workless households of workless households that are in poverty and have one with at least or more adults who is disabled and one or more adults one working- of working age that also include at least one child. age adult in Number Proportion Number Proportion poverty with (Million) (Percentage) (Million) (Percentage) Proportion and number of workless households that are in poverty and have one or more adults who is disabled and one or more adults of working age which also One or more 0.8 44 1.1 45 include at least one child, United Kingdom, 2009-10 disabled adults Workless households in poverty with one or more Two or more 0.1 6 0.1 6 disabled adults and one or more working-age adults disabled adults with at least one child Notes: Proportion 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) Low income Number (Million) (Percentage) data available at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai_arc Before housing costs 0.2 14 2. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) After housing costs 0.3 26 data sourced from the 2009-10 Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation Notes: factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) for standard of living. data available at: 3. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai_arc includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, 2. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other data sourced from the 2009-10 Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses sources. Income tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/ disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy 4. Figures have been presented on a before housing cost and an after housing for standard of living. cost basis. For before housing costs, housing costs are not deducted from 3. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This includes income, while for after housing costs they are. earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from 5. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. some other payments are deducted from incomes. 6. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. 4. Figures have been presented on a before housing cost and an after housing 7. Number of households have been rounded to the nearest 100,000. cost basis. For before housing costs, housing costs are not deducted from 8. Proportion of households have been rounded to the nearest percentage income, while for after housing costs they are. point. 5. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of 9. Poverty has been defined as: uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be relative low income: households with equivalised households incomes below affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 60% of contemporary median household income, before or after housing 6. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. costs. 7. Number of households have been rounded to the nearest 100,000. 10. For this analysis, disability is defined as having any long-standing illness, 8. Proportion of households have been rounded to the nearest percentage point. disability or impairment that leads to a substantial difficulty with one or more 9. Poverty has been defined as: areas of the individual’s life. Everyone classified as disabled under this relative low income: households with equivalised households incomes below definition would also be classified as disabled under the Equality Act 2010 60% of contemporary median household income, before or after housing costs. (and the Disability Discrimination Act which was in force at the time of the 10. For this analysis, disability is defined as having any long-standing illness, survey). However, some individuals classified as disabled under the Equality disability or impairment that leads to a substantial difficulty with one or more Act 2010 would not be captured by this definition, as the Family Resources areas of the individual’s life. Everyone classified as disabled under this definition Survey, the source of the Households Below Average Income series, does not would also be classified as disabled under the Equality Act 2010 (and the fully collect this information. Disability Discrimination Act which was in force at the time of the survey). 11. No adjustment is made to disposable household income to take into However, some individuals classified as disabled under the Equality Act 2010 account any additional costs that may be incurred due to an illness or would not be captured by this definition, as the Family Resources Survey, the disability, because research shows these vary significantly in level and nature, source of the Households Below Average Income series, does not fully collect and there is no general agreement on how to measure these costs. this information. 12. A household is defined as workless if no one within the household is 11. No adjustment is made to disposable household income to take into account classified as working; otherwise the household is defined as working, so is any additional costs that may be incurred due to an illness or disability, because wider than just those individuals classified as unemployed. We have excluded research shows these vary significantly in level and nature, and there is no households that do not contain working-age adults. general agreement on how to measure these costs. Source: 12. A household is defined as workless if no one within the household is Households Below Average Income 1994-95 to 2009-10, DWP. classified as working; otherwise the household is defined as working, so is wider than just those individuals classified as unemployed. Source: Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Households Below Average Income 1994-95 to 2009-10, DWP. and Pensions how many and what proportion of Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work people of working age, in work and living in poverty and Pensions how many and what proportion of are women in (a) full-time and (b) part-time workless households living in poverty include (a) one employment. [72215] or more and (b) two or more disabled adults. [72214] Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion of various groups of individuals living in poverty across of various groups of individuals living in poverty are the UK are published in Households Below Average published in the Households Below Average Income Income Series (HBAI, 2009-10). This uses household 247W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 248W income adjusted (or ’equivalised’) for household size Table 1: Number and proportion of working age people living in households with income below 60% of contemporary median income Before Housing Costs using various thresholds of low income poverty. This (BHC) and After Housing Costs (AHC) who are lone parents analysis looks at individual level poverty, using a threshold of the 60% of contemporary median equivalised disposable Million and percentage of individuals household income.

The following table shows the number and proportion BHC AHC of working age women, in full time and part time employment that have income below 60% of contemporary Million Percentage Million Percentage median household income, both Before and After Housing Costs in 2009-10, the most recent data available. 2009-10 0.5 9 0.9 11 Table 1: Numbers and proportions of people of working age, in work and living in poverty who are women in (a) full-time and (b) part-time employment, Before Housing Costs and After Housing Costs, 2009-10, United Kingdom Table 2: Number and proportion of working age people in work living in households with income below 60% of contemporary median income Before Before Housing Costs After Housing Costs Housing Costs (BHC) and After Housing Costs (AHC) who are lone parents Million and percentage of people of working Million and percentage of individuals age, in work and living Number Proportion Number Proportion in poverty who are: (million) (percentage) (million) (percentage) BHC AHC Women in full-time 0.4 19 0.7 22 employment Million Percentage Million Percentage Women in part-time 0.5 25 0.8 24 employment 2009-10 0.1 6 0.2 7 Notes: 1. These statistics are based on the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series, sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses Table 3: Number and proportion of working age people who are (a) living in a disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation couple and (b) lone parents that have at least one child in certain age bands factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This Million and percentage of individuals includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/ Couple Lone parent domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. 3. Figures have been presented on a Before Housing Cost and an After At least one Housing Cost basis. For Before Housing Costs, housing costs are not deducted child Million Percentage Million Percentage from income, while for After Housing Costs they are. 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. Aged 0 to 4 5.0 44 0.6 31 5. Proportions of individuals in low-income households have been rounded to the nearest whole percentage point and numbers of individuals have been rounded to the nearest 100,000. Aged 5 and 8.4 73 1.5 80 Source: above Households Below Average Income, DWP

Table 4a: Number and proportion of working age people living in households Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work with income below 60% of contemporary median income Before Housing Costs who are (a) parents in a couple and (b) lone parents that have at least one child and Pensions (1) how many and what proportion of in certain age bands working age (a) parents living in poverty as a couple and (b) lone parents have at least one child (i) over and Million and percentage of individuals (ii) under five; [72216]

(2) how many and what proportion of people of Couple Lone parent working age and living in households in poverty are lone parents; [72217] At least one child Million Percentage Million Percentage (3) how many and what proportion of people of working age in work and living in households in poverty are lone parents. [72218] Aged 0 to 4 0.8 46 0.2 35

Aged 5 and 1.3 74 0.4 79 Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion above of various groups of individuals living in poverty across the UK are published in Households Below Average Table 4b: Number and proportion of working age people living in households Income Series (HBAI). This uses household income with income below 60% of contemporary median income After Housing Costs adjusted (or ’equivalised’) for household size using various who are (a) parents in a couple and (b) lone parents that have at least one child thresholds of low income poverty. This analysis looks at in certain age bands household level poverty, using a threshold of the 60% of Million and percentage of individuals contemporary median equivalised disposable household Couple Lone parent income At least one Data is provided in the following tables for the United child Million Percentage Million Percentage Kingdom for 2009-10, the most recent year for which data is available. Aged 0 to 4 1.3 50 0.3 38 249W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 250W

Table 4b: Number and proportion of working age people living in households Rents: Ashfield with income below 60% of contemporary median income After Housing Costs who are (a) parents in a couple and (b) lone parents that have at least one child in certain age bands Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Million and percentage of individuals Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made Couple Lone parent of the average income of (a) social rental, (b) private At least one rental and (c) all households in Ashfield constituency child Million Percentage Million Percentage in the latest period for which figures are available. Aged 5 and 1.8 70 0.7 76 [71780] above Notes: Steve Webb: We use Households Below Average Income 1. These statistics are based on the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series, sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses data to provide estimates of median incomes. However, disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation the sample size of this survey is not sufficient to provide factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy estimates for small areas such as that requested. for standard of living. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This The following table shows the median equivalised includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, disposable household income by tenure and all households income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/ for the east midlands region of England, Before and domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. After 3. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be Housing Costs. affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. Median equivalised disposable household income, for households, by tenure and 4. Proportions of individuals in low-income households have been rounded to for all households for the east midlands region of England, three year average the nearest whole percentage point and numbers of individuals have been 2007-08 to 2009-10, Before and After Housing Costs rounded to the nearest 100,000. Note that proportions do not add to 100% as parents can have children in each of the different age ranges. Median equivalised weekly disposable household 5. Figures have been presented on both Before and After Housing Cost bases. income for families (£) For Before Housing Costs figures, housing costs (such as rent, water rates, Tenure type BHC AHC mortgage interest payments, buildings insurance payments and ground rent, and service charges) are not deducted from income, while for After Housing Social renters 290 229 Costs they are. Private renters 328 249 6. It is unclear whether five-year-olds should be included in either of the splits requested. We have included five-year-olds in the older age range in line with All households 380 345 school years and the standard age splits presented in the HBAI publication. Notes: Source: 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) Households Below Average Income, DWP data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for Redundancy: Manufacturing Industries household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This includes Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income Work and Pensions if he will calculate the cost to the tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and public purse of redundancies in rail manufacturing in some other payments are deducted from incomes. the East Midlands, including support for affected 3. Figures have been presented on a Before Housing Cost and an After Housing Cost basis. For Before Housing Costs, housing costs are not deducted from individuals and families in the comprehensive spending income, while for After Housing Costs they are. review period. [71160] 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. 5. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. For countries and regions within the UK, three survey years have been combined because single The latest employment figures for the quarter May to year estimates are not considered to be sufficiently reliable. July 2011 (seasonally adjusted) show a growth over the 6. Weekly incomes are presented in 2009-10 prices and have been rounded to the year of 24,000 in the UK and 51,000 in the East nearest pound. 7. Families are defined as a single adult or couple living as married and any Midlands regions. dependent children, including same sex couples (civil partnerships and cohabitees) This net improvement in employment over the last from January 2006. A household is made up of one of more families and is defined as a single person or group of people living at the same address as their year has happened despite redundancies occurring both only or main residence, who either share one meal a day together or share the in the East Midlands and the UK. It is unfortunate but living accommodation (i.e. a living room). In line with the wording of the there are always redundancies, job losses and separations. question, analysis has been carried out at the family level. 8. The estimates for All Households include those households who are owner Over the last year in the East Midlands, however, these occupiers as well as those in the social and privately rented sector. job losses and separations have been more than offset Source: by the numbers being recruited. Households Below Average Income (HBAI) 2007-08 to 2009/-10 So, because there is no direct relationship between Sick Leave redundancies in a specific firm or sector and wider labour market development it is not possible to calculate Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the cost to the public purse of a specific redundancy. and Pensions what information his Department holds The outcome will depend on the state of the economy, on the number of people in each (a) nation of the UK whether the redundant person takes up a benefit and and (b) region of England who were on long-term sick how long they remain on benefit before they leave—either leave in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009 and (iii) 2010. [70536] to go into work or another destination. Government policy aims to minimise these costs to Chris Grayling: There are few reliable sources of the public purse and also the problems faced by the sickness absence data in Great Britain. Employers pay redundant workers. It is aiming to establish a system statutory sick pay (and in some cases occupational sick that fosters and delivers growth and also labour market pay) but are not required to submit this information to policies that help the people made redundant back into the Government unless they are seeking reimbursement work as soon as possible. for monies paid under the Percentage Threshold Scheme. 251W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 252W

Consequently, there is no comprehensive centrally recorded Chris Grayling: In 2010-11 a total of 8,598 people administrative data and there is greater reliance on received a criminal conviction for benefit fraud. Information survey data. on the amount of benefit fraud involved in these cases is Department for Work and Pensions’ analysis of the as follows: “Employee Health and Well-being at Work Survey” (DWP Research Report 751) found that in 2009, 4% of Overpayment value Number of cases employees in Great Britain had absences of more than (a) £0 to £1,000 574 four weeks. More than four weeks is commonly used to (b) £1,001 to £5,000 3,417 define long-term sickness absence. This equates to around (c) £5,001 to £10,000 2,149 1 million employees. Breakdowns by nations and regions (d) Over £10,000 2,458 of England are unavailable due to small sample sizes. Sources: Data for other years are also unavailable. Fraud Referral and Intelligence Management System (FRAIMS) (England and Wales only) and local management information (Scotland).

Social Security Benefits: EU Nationals Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people were found to Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for have committed benefit fraud in each of the last five Work and Pensions what recent communications he years; and what proportion were prosecuted in court. has received from the European Commission on [71076] increasing benefit payments from the UK Government to citizens of other EU countries. [72192] Chris Grayling: Information on how many people were found to have committed benefit fraud in each of Chris Grayling: On 29 September the Government the last five years and the proportion of these that were received a communication from the European Commission prosecuted in court is as follows: in the form of a Reasoned Opinion in which the Number committing Proportion prosecuted in Commission states that the application of the ‘Right to fraud court (Percentage) Reside Test’ to claims for certain residence-based non- contributory benefits constitutes an unjustified 2006-07 28,647 30 discrimination prohibited by the EU regulations on 2007-08 29,132 33 social security co-ordination. 2008-09 28,180 31 As a result, the Commission invites the United Kingdom 2009-10 29,406 28 “to take the necessary measures” to comply with the 2010-11 31,797 31 Note: Reasoned Opinion within two months. Figures based on the number of individuals that were given a caution, administrative The Government believe that it is right that we support penalty and conviction, and what proportion these equate to against the total number of court prosecutions for the same period. those who work and pay their taxes here, but it is clearly Sources: completely unacceptable that we should be asked to Information extracted from the Fraud Referral and Intelligence Management open our welfare system to people who have never System (FRAIMS) and local management information (Scotland). worked or contributed in the United Kingdom and have no intention of doing so. I am surprised that the European Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission has chosen to write in this way on this very Work and Pensions how many people were convicted of sensitive issue, especially when the UK and a number of benefit fraud in each of the last five years; and how other EU member states have asked the Commission to many of those convicted, who received a custodial reconsider the rules. sentence, had committed fraud amounting to (a) £0 to £1,000, (b) £1,001 to £5,000, (c) £5001 to £10,000 and The Government will consider all the details of the (d) over £10,000. [71077] Commission’s Reasoned Opinion before deciding what action to take. Chris Grayling: Information on how many people were convicted of benefit fraud in each of the last five Social Security Benefits: Fraud years and those that received a custodial sentence is as follows: Mr Nuttall: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Number convicted of benefit Number that received a custodial and Pensions how many people convicted of benefit fraud sentence fraud continued to receive benefits in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010; and how many such people were 2006-07 6,861 1,146 (includes 530 suspended resident in (i) the North West, (ii) Greater Manchester custodial sentences) .2007-08 7,745 1,483 (includes 961 suspended and (iii) Bury North constituency. [70986] custodial sentences) 2008-09 6,700 1,308 (includes 841 suspended Chris Grayling: The information requested is not custodial sentences) available. 2009-10 7,040 1,340 (includes 929 suspended custodial sentences) 2010-11 8,598 1,304 (includes 939 suspended Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for custodial sentences) Work and Pensions how many people received a criminal conviction for benefit fraud where the amount Information on the value of the frauds of those of fraud involved was (a) £0 to £1,000, (b) £1,101 to convicted who received a custodial sentence is only £5,000, (c) £5,001 to £10,000 and (d) over £10,000 in available for the last year (1 April 2010 to 31 March the last year for which figures are available. [71054] 2011) and is as follows: 253W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 254W

(a) £0 to £1,000: 237 (of which 72 relates to suspended Under the Work programme, which was launched on sentences) 10 June 2011 and is now in place nationally, providers (b) £1,001 to £5,000: 44 (of which 27 relates to suspended are free to design support based on individual and local sentences) need and they will be paid primarily for supporting (c) £5,001 to £10,000: 88 (of which 77 relates to suspended claimants into employment and helping them stay there sentences) for longer than ever before, with higher payments for (d) over £10,000: 935 (of which 763 relates to suspended supporting the hardest to help. All three Work programme sentences) providers contracted to deliver services in Birmingham Source: have one main site and at least one sub contractor site Information extracted from the Fraud Referral and Intelligence within the Ladywood constituency. In addition, there Management System (FRAIMS) and local management information are eight Enterprise clubs and 11 Work clubs in the (Scotland). Prosecution and conviction data by monetary value constituency. are not available prior to 1 April 2010. Jobcentre Plus also works with a number of employers and local partners to maximise the employment Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for opportunities available to the local Ladywood community. Work and Pensions how many people convicted of The Greater Birmingham and Solihull Local Enterprise benefit fraud continued to receive benefits in (a) 2008, Partnership was set up in October 2010 to help strengthen (b) 2009 and (c) 2010; and how many such people local economies, encourage economic development and were resident in (i) the north-west, (ii) east Lancashire enterprise, and improve skills across the region. The and (iii) Pendle constituency. [71776] partnership is now one of the largest in the country, encompassing a population of over 2 million people, Chris Grayling: The information requested is not and 840,000 jobs. available. In addition, Jobcentre Plus in Birmingham and Solihull are working with voluntary organisations such as British Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Heart Foundation and Barnardo’s and have signposted and Pensions how many people were convicted for over 450 customers to a wide range of volunteering benefit fraud and what proportion of all benefit opportunities. Jobcentre Plus is also working closely claimants this represented in each of the last five years. with all colleges within the catchment area of the [72033] constituency. A range of provision is available to meet the skill needs of customers and the demands of the Chris Grayling: Information on how many people local labour market. were convicted of benefit fraud in each of the last five The Department is working with Birmingham city years and the proportion of all benefit claimants this council and local third sector partners to test whether a represents is as follows: more personalised, holistic approach, would be more effective for those people with multiple barriers to return Number convicted of Proportion of all benefit to work. benefit fraud claims (percentage) Unemployment: Training 2006-07 6,861 0.04 2007-08 7,745 0.04 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2008-09 6,700 0.04 and Pensions what assistance his Department provides 2009-10 7,040 0.04 to mature unemployed people to retrain and reskill that 2010-11 8,598 0.05 does not affect their entitlement to benefits. [72120] Note: Figures based on the number of individuals convicted of benefit Steve Webb: Jobcentre Plus aims to deliver a tailored fraud for the last five years and those numbers expressed as proportions flexible package of back-to-work support to all jobseekers of the total number of benefit claimants at February of that year. that includes work-related training as well as job-search Source: Information on convictions extracted from the Fraud Referral and support. Older jobseekers have the same access to a Intelligence Management System (FRAIMS) and local management comprehensive menu of individually-tailored help as information (Scotland). Information on benefit claims taken from those aged under 50 years (apart from the specific DWP Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. measures aimed at improving youth employment for jobseekers aged under 25 years). The Work programme Unemployment: Birmingham will also provide support for those of all ages who are more at risk of long-term unemployment. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Older claimants of jobseeker’s allowance or employment Work and Pensions what recent discussions he has had and support allowance (work-related activity group) are with partner agencies on the rate of unemployment in eligible for fully-funded training to help them into Birmingham, Ladywood; and what steps are being work. Jobcentre Plus will work closely with skills providers taken to reduce that rate. [71918] at a local level to ensure that the training offered meets the needs of both claimants and employers. Claimants Chris Grayling: The Department’s new flexible delivery of these benefits can also participate in the sector-based model enables Jobcentre Plus district managers to deliver work academies, which offer pre-employment training, local labour-market solutions. This allows the harnessing work placements and guaranteed interviews in sectors of all resources in a particular area to meet the challenge with high volumes of current local vacancies. of getting as many people into work as possible, including The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills a stronger focus on working collaboratively with key recently announced greater freedoms for colleges to partners. deliver fully-subsidised training to people on other benefits, 255W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 256W as long as the training is linked to helping the individual At least three years’ post registration experience in a broad back into work. It will be for colleges and training based role (in individual cases, solely at the discretion of the providers to decide what training is offered locally. CMA, the requirements that no conditions be attached to registration and that medical personnel must have a minimum of three years Universal Credit: West Lothian post registration experience may be waived) Skilled in the analysis of clinical information and medical Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for evidence or experienced as a GP or in related disciplines involving broad-based examination, investigation and diagnostic skills Work and Pensions what assessment his Department Ability to produce clear, concise reports has made of the effects of the introduction of universal credit on (a) West Lothian Council and (b) housing Tact, sensitivity, honesty and integrity A commitment to client confidentiality associations in West Lothian. [72164] Comfortable working to targets and specified standards Chris Grayling: The information requested is as follows. Ability to work unsupervised but know when to ask for support Evidence of ongoing professional development to necessary (a) Universal credit will be delivered by DWP drawing standards on the expertise of HMRC and local authorities. The IT literate best of the current capability will be used to deliver the Excellent communication skills new service, taking the opportunity to modernise and improve it to deliver better efficiency for the taxpayer Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for and better service for claimants. As DWP start to build Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of the organisation to deliver universal credit, and we have 7 September 2011, Official Report, column 681W, on yet to settle on the precise detail, it is likely some of work capability assessment: Atos Healthcare, how he those skills will exist within local authorities. We will defines reviewed regularly; what the results were of (a) therefore always look to include local authority staff in the last five reviews of the continued suitability of Atos our thinking. Healthcare to perform work capability assessments and (b) The Government’s intention is to pay universal (b) the last 12 performance monitoring exercises; credit to the claimant in the majority of cases. The whether such reviews have identified any of the Government believes that this policy will replicate the standards required of Atos Healthcare in their contract budgeting skills that people will need when working and to conduct the work capability assessment programme; will help to break the cycle of welfare dependency that and if he will make a statement. [72237] is a feature of the current benefit system. My Department Chris Grayling: Atos Healthcare provision is reviewed is aware that this will be a big change for housing monthly. Results of the last five reviews are that Atos associations, who are used to receiving housing benefit Healthcare remains suitable to perform work capability direct from local authorities under the current scheme. assessments. The results of the last 12 reviews are that The Government are convinced that, with the right Atos Healthcare remains suitable to provide medical support for tenants and landlords, this policy will not assessment services. affect housing associations adversely. This support will be tested by a number of projects which the Minister for These reviews have not introduced new standards for Welfare Reform, my noble Friend Lord Freud, announced work capability assessments. However, Professor on 14 September 2011. The lessons learned from these Harrington’s review, “An Independent Review of the projects will allow us to refine this support before Work Capability Assessment”, recommended the inclusion universal credit goes live in 2013. of a personalised summary statement and this is being implemented for all work capability assessments. DWP has not specifically made an assessment of the effect of the introduction of Universal Credit on West Work Capability Assessment: Health Professions Lothian Council and housing associations in West Lothian. Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Capability Assessment: Atos Healthcare Work and Pensions what proportion of approved healthcare professionals undertaking work capability Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for assessments were (a) qualified doctors registered with Work and Pensions what information his Department the General Medical Council, (b) qualified nurses holds on the criteria used by Atos Healthcare to assess registered with the Nursing and Midwifery Council, the suitability of an applicant to become an approved (c) qualified physiotherapists registered with the healthcare professional undertaking work capability Health Professions Council and (d) other qualified assessments. [71767] medical professionals in the latest period for which figures are available. [71769] Chris Grayling: The chief medical adviser (CMA) to the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) approves Chris Grayling: In answer to the question, the figures healthcare professionals (HCP) to carry out assessments below are based on work capability assessment (WCA) on behalf of the Secretary of State. Approval is dependent exams completed in the month of August 2011 as this is on strict recruitment criteria, completion of a course of the latest period for which figures are available. training approved by the CMA and evidence of satisfactory 33% of approved healthcare professionals (HCP) performance. undertaking work capability assessments are qualified The core requirements for the role of the HCP as a doctors registered with the General Medical Council. disability analyst are as follows: 62% of approved HCPs undertaking work capability Full and unconditional General Medical Council (or European assessments are qualified nurses registered with the economic area equivalent) registration and a current license to Nursing and Midwifery Council and 5% are qualified practice or Nursing and Midwifery Council registration or Health physiotherapists registered with the Health Professions Professions Council registration Council. 257W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 258W

The law defines “a Healthcare Professional” as a colleges in England which provide a range of intensive registered doctor, registered nurse, physiotherapist, or support to disadvantaged adults, to gain confidence, occupational therapist. This came into effect on 3 July skills and qualifications in preparation for further study 2007 in Statutory Instrument 2007 No. 1626 The Social or work. Security (Miscellaneous Amendments) (No.2) Regulations The Skills Funding Agency collects individualised 2007. data about learners and types of course, but does not link this to specific awards. The budget for 2012-13 will be announced in the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Skills Investment Strategy, which will be published later this year. Adult Education: Finance Apprentices Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Department provided for the Adult Education Bursary Business, Innovation and Skills how many for Certificate of Higher Education in each of the last apprenticeships were taken up in (a) England, (b) the three years; what proportion of the bursary was West Midlands and (c) Dudley borough in each of the awarded in the form of (a) grants and (b) loans in the last 12 months. [72507] latest period for which figures are available; and how much funding will be provided in 2012. [71397] Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows a quarterly breakdown of apprenticeship starts in England, West Midlands region Mr Hayes: The Department has allocated a budget of and Dudley local education authority, in the first nine £2.911 million for Adult Education Bursaries for 2008-09, months of the 2010/11 academic year, from August 2009-10, 2010-11, and for 2011-12. 2010 to April 2011, based on provisional data. The budget is administered by the Residential Colleges The Statistical First Release (SFR) is used for the Committee, which in turn distributes it to the colleges latest apprenticeship figures. Monthly apprenticeship that qualify. These are an established group of residential data are not available.

Table 1: Apprenticeship starts in England, West Midlands Region and Dudley local education authority between 1 August 2010 and 30 April 2011 Provisional August 2010 to November 2010 to January February 2011 to April August 2010 to April October 2010 2011 2011 2011

England 122,200 93,900 110,600 326,700 Dudley Local Education Authority 780 640 910 2,320 West Midlands Government Office Region 13,440 11,270 13,650 38,350 Notes: 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10 except those for England which are rounded to the nearest 100. 2. Geography Information Is based upon the home postcode of the learner. Source: Individualised Learner Record

Information on the number of apprenticeship starts Arms Trade: Export Controls is published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 23 June 2011: Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Business, Innovation and Skills what further statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current revocations of arms export licences have been made to countries in North Africa and the Middle East subsequent to those detailed in the document Cm. Apprentices: Birmingham 8079; and if he will provide this information in the same format as in Annex 1 of Cm. 8079. [71627] Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: One such licence was revoked on 24 May Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has 2011, as follows: made of the number of higher apprenticeships that will be created in Birmingham, Ladywood constituency. End user Annual report [70791] country summary Rating Reason for revocation Syria Small arms ML3 Due to the arms Mr Hayes: The Apprenticeships programme is demand ammunition embargo imposed by the EU this licence was led. Government provides funding and forecasts the reassessed and found to overall number of places that may be afforded. contravene Criteria 1 In July the Prime Minister launched a £25 million Higher Apprenticeship Fund to support the expansion Business: Entry Clearances of Higher Apprenticeships helping to deliver up to an additional 10,000 advanced and higher level apprenticeships Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for over this Parliament. The closing date for bids is 16 Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking September and we expect to announce the successful to address any potential skills shortages arising from bids in November. recent changes to the immigration rules. [70563] 259W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 260W

Mr Hayes: The Government aims to reduce net migration the costs borne by the trader for use of that means of while ensuring that the UK remains open for business. payment. This will address consumer concerns about The changes to the migration system will continue to the high level of fees charged by some businesses when enable companies to bring in the skilled migrants necessary consumers pay by debit or credit card. The directive for growth. A long term approach to addressing the should be adopted by the EU shortly and will be UK’s reliance on migrant workers can only be achieved implemented into UK law. through a significant shift in employer behaviour and working practices. It will require action from employers, Debts: Advisory Services the immigration system and through coordinated cross- Government action. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has already begun to take this Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for forward, working closely with relevant Sector Skills Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has Councils and employers. had with Ministers in the Scottish Government on funding for debt advice in Scotland after the end of the More widely, we are reforming the skills system so Financial Inclusion Fund. [72593] that it delivers the skills needed to return the economy to sustainable growth. As part of our skills strategy, we Mr Davey: BIS Ministers have not had discussions aim to reduce skill deficiencies at local, regional or with Scottish Ministers on funding for debt advice in sectoral level, so that they are quickly identified and Scotland. Officials have, however, met officials from the tackled through the demand-led skills system. National Scottish Government as part of ongoing dialogue about Skills Academies, an expanded Apprenticeships programme the future of debt advice provision. and greater freedoms and flexibilities for colleges and other learning providers are all contributing to delivering In order to place debt advice in the future on a more the skills that employers want. The Government have secure footing, the Money Advice Service has agreed to also established the £50 million a year Growth and take on responsibility for the coordination of debt Innovation Fund to help in tackling the skills shortages advice services from April 2012. The Money Advice that hold companies back. Training to support the Service will carry out a detailed review of the current unemployed will play its part with more personalised debt advice landscape to identify the best way that these programmes tailored towards local job opportunities. services can be delivered, and have met Scottish Government officials as part of their work to develop a model which Consumers: Protection ensures that debt advice is delivered in the most effective and efficient way. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been Departmental Advertising made on the coalition agreement commitment to introduce stronger consumer protections, including Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for measures to end unfair bank and financial transaction Business, Innovation and Skills how much his charges; and if he will make a statement. [72163] Department has spent on (a) television, (b) radio and (c) newspaper advertising in (i) real and (ii) nominal Mr Davey: The Government are taking forward the terms between June 2001 and May 2002; and what the commitment to end unfair bank charges in the context total cost to the public purse was. [68377] of a wider strategic approach to strengthen and streamline consumer protections and advocacy, and as part of the Mr Davey: For expenditure on advertising by this joint Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Department through the Central Office of Information (BIS) and HM Treasury Consumer Credit and Personal for financial years 2001-02 and 2002-03, I refer my hon. Insolvency Review. Friend to the answer given to the Secretary of State for In July 2011, this Department and HM Treasury Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend published a summary of responses to the call for the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), on 23 July evidence to the review. The evidence shows that there 2004, Official Report, column 752W. have been significant developments in the market in Information on publicity expenditure from centrally recent years. As part of the Office of Fair Trading’s held budgets is contained in the Government’s expenditure work, banks have committed to introduce measures to plans and, more recently, the Department’s annual improve the transparency of unarranged overdraft charges departmental reports, which are available in the Libraries and many have also revised their charging structures. of the House. Figures relating to specific media, other However, there are still serious concerns about how information campaigns, and information on publicity charges affect consumers, particularly where charges and advertising by non departmental public bodies may not be clear or transparent. The Government are could be produced only at disproportionate cost. working with current account providers to determine The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills the most appropriate course of action to deliver further (BIS) was created on 5 June 2009 by merging the improvements to consumers. We will, however, regulate Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory to address consumer detriment if suitable alternatives Reform (BERR) and the Department for Innovation, cannot be agreed. Universities and Skills (DIUS). In June 2007 BERR, The Government will make an announcement on this DIUS and the Department for Children, Schools and later this year. Families (DCSF) were created from the former Department In relation to financial transaction charges, the of Trade and Industry (DTI) and the former Department Government supported an amendment to the consumer for Education and Skills (DFES). This reply contains rights directive to ban payment surcharges that exceed information relating solely to the former DTI. 261W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 262W

Departmental Air Travel are virtually always sourced from the legal services framework agreement negotiated by Buying Solutions John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for (or as it is now called the Government Procurement Business, Innovation and Skills which travel Service). Very occasionally the Department goes “off management companies his Department uses for the panel” where a particular expertise is required, for purchase of airline tickets. [72681] example Departments are required to seek the Attorney- General’s nomination to use leading counsel. Mr Davey: The Department currently uses Carlson The average hourly rate paid to solicitors and barristers Wagonlit Travel Ltd for the purchase of airline tickets. could be provided only at disproportionate cost. This Department has paid hourly rates to panel John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for barristers, solicitors and criminal advocates as set out Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) contractual below. In other circumstances, such as off panel barrister obligations and (b) other processes his Department nominations through the Attorney-General’s Office, uses in respect of travel management companies to the fee would be negotiable as part of the procurement ensure the best value is achieved when purchasing process. airline tickets. [72695] Civil Work—hourly rates paid to barristers as set out on the Treasury Solicitor’s Department website at: Mr Davey: The Department uses Carlson Wagonlit Travel Ltd (CWT) for the purchase of airline tickets and http://www.tsol.gov.uk/PanelCounsel/ appointments_to_panel.htm works closely with CWT to achieve best value through regular contract service review meetings. The contract Hourly rate with CWT is part of a Government Procurement Service (formerly Buying Solutions) framework contract and First Treasury Counsel £220 the contractual obligation under the framework requires, Queen’s Counsel £180 to £250 amongst other things, that the contractor provides:

1. Access to value for money fares; London Panel Rates A Panel of counsel £120 2. Provision of lowest fare availability and challenge to higher B Panel of counsel £100 fare use; C Panel of counsel £60 to £80 3. Access to low cost carriers and (to 31 July 2011) the Government Air programme; 4. Analysis of spend and identification of cost saving opportunities; Regional Panel Rates 10 + years call £110 and Between 5-10 years call £90 5. Provision of savings and missed savings management information Under 5 years call £60 Additionally, all air travel bookings through CWT are pre-notified to line managers who are required to Civil Work—hourly rates paid to solicitors for advisory consider and approve the need for travel and the overall work cost involved. External solicitors appointed under the Legal Services framework agreement may only charge up to the amount Departmental Legal Opinion quoted on the framework, hourly rates reflecting different grades of fee earner depending on their years qualified. Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Criminal Work - Advocates Business, Innovation and Skills what the average hourly rate paid was to external (a) solicitors and (b) Hourly rate barristers engaged by his Department in 2010-11; what Queen’s Counsel £185 guidance his Department uses in commissioning Standing Counsel £125 external legal advice; and if he will publish (i) the names of each external (A) solicitor and (B) barrister Attorney-General unified list of prosecution advocates engaged by his Department in 2010-11 and (ii) the Hourly rate sums paid in each case. [72558] A List £95 B List £80 Mr Davey: This Department uses the following guidance C List £70 in commissioning external legal services: The Attorney-General’s guidelines on the use of the private sector for Government legal work Criminal work - Solicitors magistrates court Treasury Solicitor’s Department’s guidance on the use of counsel Hourly rate Government Legal Service guidance on the best practice for Preparation £49.70 Government lawyers managing private sector provision of legal services Advocacy £62.35 Government Legal Services procurement protocol Department for Business, Innovation and Skills procurement Criminal work - Solicitors crown court code and procurement guidance. Wherever possible, external legal services are sourced Preparation Advocacy Attendance from panels of counsel or solicitors firms which have Senior Solicitor £53 £64.50 £42.25 been appointed following open and competitive selection Solicitor £45 £56.00 £34.00 processes. External solicitors required for advisory work 263W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 264W

While we do record instances of where external solicitors United Kingdom Trade and Investment (UKTI) a and barristers are used and the hourly rate(s) applicable joint Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in each case we do not aggregate them to calculate the and Foreign and Commonwealth Office body, operate a average overall hourly rate and therefore the information help line with an approximate cost of £24,500 per requested could be provided only at a disproportionate annum. All figures noted, apply to rental and maintenance cost. costs and exclude staff costs. Details of advocates who are currently appointed to the Treasury Solicitor’s (civil) panels are available at: Education: Young Offender Institutions www.tsol.gov.uk/attorney_generals_panel_of_counsel.htm Details of the Buying Solutions Legal Services Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Framework contract and the firms appointed can be Business, Innovation and Skills what the average (a) found at: reading and (b) mathematics age was of those held in http://www.buyingsolutions.gov.uk/search/overview/ (i) young offenders’ institutions and (ii) prisons by ?search_1=legal+services 10 year age bands in the latest period for which figures Details of some payments made to solicitors and are available; and what the non-prison population barristers for legal services commissioned in 2010-11 comparators were in each such group. [72060] are available on the BIS website at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/transparency/financial Mr Hayes: Data are not collected on either the reading age or the mathematics age of prisoners or those held in youth detention. Departmental Responsibilities The most recent, large scale analysis of the reading and numeracy levels of prisoners remains the Home Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Office data published in 20031 based on basic skills Business, Innovation and Skills how many meetings he screening assessments. This showed that 37% of prisoners has had with hon. Members of each political party had reading skills below Level 1 and 43% had numeracy since May 2010. [67175] skills below Level 1. The closest non-prison comparator is the 2003 Skills Mr Davey: The Department does not hold centrally for Life Survey2, which showed that 16% of the population the information you request and it could be provided had literacy skills below Level 1 and 46% had numeracy only at disproportionate cost. skills below Level. 1 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Prison Statistics England and Wales 2002 Business, Innovation and Skills on how many 2 Skills for Life Survey: A National Needs and Impact Survey of occasions a request for a meeting by an hon. Member Literacy, Numeracy and ICT Skills of each political party was refused by (a) a Minister in his Department directly and (b) his Department on Employment Agencies: EU Law behalf of a Minister in November 2010. [67584] Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: This information is not recorded. Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has assessed the likely effects of the Agency Workers Regulations on Departmental Telephone Services (a) business costs and (b) productivity; and if he will make a statement. [72141] Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding he Mr Davey: The January 2010 BIS impact assessment has allocated to each telephone helpline operated by “European Parliament and Council Directive on working his Department in 2011-12; and what the purpose is of conditions for temporary agency workers” estimated each such helpline. [68550] costs to business at £1.5 billion. The impact assessment identifies a potential benefit of increased productivity through improved access to training for agency workers. Mr Davey [holding answer 6 September 2011]: The Department supports a number of help lines—including The Government have worked closely with businesses the Pay and Work Rights Helpline and the Business and the recruitment industry to help them prepare for Link advice line. In terms of help lines operated by the the changes and have published guidance that will help Department the answer is as follows: employers, agencies and agency workers fully understand their obligations and rights as of 1 October. The Department operates a central Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) inquiry line I refer my right hon. Friend to the statement I made (020 7215 5000) at a cost of approximately £19,000 per to Parliament on 19 October 2010, Official Report, annum to provide businesses and members of the public columns 49-50WS. with advice on the work of the Department and to connect callers to BIS officials. Additionally we operate Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for three other help lines: Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate his 0845 015 0010 BIS publications order line Department has made of the number of employees who will be affected by the coming into force of the 0845 015 0020 BIS publications order line (Fax) Agency Workers Regulations 2010 in (a) Livingston 0845 015 0030 BIS publications order line (Minicom) constituency, (b) West Lothian local authority area at a total cost to date this year of approximately £150. and (c) Scotland. [72381] 265W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 266W

Mr Davey: The focus of the January 2010 BIS impact Qualifiers1 from first degree engineering courses English higher education assessment “European Parliament and Council Directive institutions academic years 2006/07 to 2009/10 on working conditions for temporary agency workers” Academic year Qualifiers was on the impact on agency workers rather than 2009/10 15,370 employees. There is unlikely to be a substantial 1 Covers qualifiers of all domiciles from full-time and part-time courses. impact on employees as a result of the agency workers Note: Figures are based on a HESA qualifications obtained population and have been regulations. The impact assessment does not provide a rounded to the nearest five. breakdown for the number of agency workers or employees Source: that will be affected by the regulations at constituency Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record and local authority level or within the devolved Administrations. English Language: Education The Government have worked closely with businesses Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for and the recruitment industry to help them prepare for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has had the changes and have published guidance that will help discussions with the Secretary of State for (a) employers, agencies and agency workers fully understand Communities and Local Government and (b) the their obligations and rights as of 1 October. Home Department on the effects on measures to promote community cohesion and integration of Employment: Regulation planned reductions in funding for English for Speakers of Other Languages. [68560] Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to Mr Hayes: The Secretary of State for Business, adopt the Think Small First principle in respect of the Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for flow of employment regulation; and if so how this Twickenham (Vince Cable), has met the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my objective will be achieved. [72161] right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar Mr Davey: The Government have gone further than (Mr Pickles), and the Secretary of State for the Home the EU’s “Think Small First” principle by recognising Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for the impact that the regulatory burden can have on the Maidenhead (Mrs May), on a number of occasions to growth of the smallest of businesses. That is why, in discuss a wide range of issues. April, the Government introduced a moratorium This Department and the Department for Communities exempting micro and start-up business from new domestic and Local Government are working in partnership to regulation for three years, which also extends to employment develop new forms of support for individuals who laws. need language skills to assist with integration and community cohesion. I will announce further details in As set out in the “Plan for Growth”, the Government due course. have also scrapped a number of proposals which would have cost businesses including small and medium-sized The potential impact on adult learners participating enterprises around £340 million a year, such as not in English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) extending the right to request Time to Train to companies courses of the changes to eligibility criteria for fee with fewer than 250 employees. remission proposed in the Government’s “Skills for Sustainable Growth” strategy (November 2010) are Going beyond regulation, the Government have brought described in an Equality Impact Assessment, published forward a number of measures to support small business by this Department on 18 July 2011. This can be found growth, including extending the current small business at: rate relief holiday for one year; increasing the rate of http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/ small business research and development tax relief and docs/e/11-1045-english-for-speakers-of-other-languages- reforming public sector procurement practices to make equality-impact it much easier for small businesses to access contracting opportunities. Mr Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many students Engineering: Graduates were enrolled in English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) courses in Coventry local authority area in each year since 2005-06; and what funding his Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Department provided for ESOL courses in Coventry Business, Innovation and Skills how many students local authority area in each such year. [70347] graduated from universities in England with degrees in engineering in (a) 2007, (b) 2008, (c) 2009, (d) 2010 Mr Hayes: The following table shows the number of and (e) 2011. [72198] Government-funded learners in Coventry local education authority participating on an English for Mr Willetts: The latest data from the Higher Education Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) course from Statistics Agency (HESA) are shown in the table. Figures 2005/06 to 2009/10, the latest year for which full-year for the 2010/11 academic year will be available in January data are available. 2012. Number of learners participating on ESOL courses in Coventry local authority, Qualifiers1 from first degree engineering courses English higher education 2005/06 to 2009/10 institutions academic years 2006/07 to 2009/10 Number Academic year Qualifiers 2005/06 2,330 2006/07 13,605 2006/07 2,160 2007/08 14,015 2007/08 2,550 2008/09 14,410 2008/091 2,110 267W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 268W

Number of learners participating on ESOL courses in Coventry local authority, ESOL course fees for people who are settled here. We 2005/06 to 2009/10 will no longer fund ESOL courses delivered in the Number workplace. 2009/101 2,510 This Department does not make estimates of the 1 Figures for 2008/09 onwards are not directly comparable to earlier years as the demand for courses. Further education (FE) colleges introduction of demand-led funding has changed how data are collected and how funded learners are defined. More Information on demand-led funding is and training providers are responsible for meeting the available at: needs of their local community, and increased freedoms http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/datadictionary/businessdefinitions/ and flexibilities that we have introduced will help them Demand+Led+Funding.htm Notes: respond and determine within their funding where this 1. These data cover participation in Learner Responsive, Apprenticeships, Train is prioritised. to Gain, Adult Safeguarded Learning and University for Industry provision. Further Education/Learner Responsive provision includes General Further The potential impact on adult learners participating Education Colleges including Tertiary, Sixth Form Colleges—Agricultural and in English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) Horticultural Colleges and Art and Design Colleges, Specialist Colleges and courses of the changes to eligibility criteria for fee External Institutions. 2. Volumes are rounded to the nearest 10. remission proposed in the Government’s ‘Skills for 3. Geography is based on learner’s home postcode. Sustainable Growth’ strategy (November 2010) are Source: Individualised Learner Record described in an equality impact assessment, published by this Department on 18 July 2011. This can be found Information on participation on ESOL courses is at: published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/ The latest SFR was published on 23 June: docs/e/11-1045-english-for-speakers-of-other-languages- http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ equality-impact statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Provision for 2009/10 Information on historical ESOL funding at the local The following table shows adult (19+) English for! geography level is not available as funding is not allocated Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) participation in to FE colleges and providers at the learning aim level. Coventry local education authority for 2009/10, the However, the Skills Funding Agency publish information latest year for which full year data are available. on adult (19 years +) allocations made to individual Adult (19+) ESOL learner participation in Coventry local authority, 2009/10 colleges, providers and employers for each academic Number year available at the following link: 2009/10 2,310 http://skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk/providers/programmes/ Notes: 1. These data cover participation in Learner Responsive, Apprenticeships, Train to Gain, Adult Safeguarded Learning and University for Industry provision. Mr Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Further Education/Learner Responsive provision includes General Further Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many adult Education Colleges including Tertiary, Sixth Form Colleges—Agricultural and learners in Coventry local authority area were eligible Horticultural Colleges and Art and Design Colleges, Specialist Colleges and External Institutions. for a fee remission for English for Speakers of Other 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Languages (ESOL) courses in the latest period for 3. Geography is based on learner’s home postcode. which figures are available; and how many such people 4. Age is based on age at the start of the academic year. Source: will no longer be eligible for fee remission following the Individualised Learner Record introduction of his proposed changes to ESOL; [70348] (2) what assessment he has made of the level of We do not directly record what type of benefits demand for English for Speakers of Other Languages people are receiving when they take up training. We do, however, collect information on why a learner has received courses in the Coventry local authority area; [70349] fee remission for any learning they undertake. From (3) what assessment he has made of the likely effect these data we can provide some information on claimants on the number of women from black, Asian and but, this should be used with caution given it does not minority ethnic communities who will enter provide an accurate picture of the full range of benefit employment of the planned reduction in funding for entitlements that a person has. Using the fees waived English for Speakers of Other Languages courses. field in the individual learner record we can say for the [70350] 2009/10 academic year that 1,700 ESOL enrolments for adult (19+) learners in Coventry local education authority Mr Hayes: The Government currently provide 50% received fee remission as the learner was in receipt of an fee remission for all learners in England participating income-related benefit. on ESOL courses who are eligible for public funded skills provision. Those on income based-benefits are Mr Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for eligible for full fee remission. Further education colleges Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to and training organisations also have local discretion to publish the equality impact assessment for his planned provide fully subsidised courses for people on a wider change to the funding for English for Speakers of range of benefits where the training is to help them Other Languages courses. [70351] enter employment. From August 2011, where English language skills Mr Hayes: The Department published the “Equality have been identified as a barrier to entering employment, Impact Assessment” for English for Speakers of Other full Government funding will be provided for ESOL to Language on the 18 July 2011. This can be found at: unemployed people in receipt of jobseekers allowance http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/ or in the employment and support allowance (Work-Related docs/e/11-1045-english-for-speakers-of-other-languages- Activity) Group. We will also continue to pay 50% of equality-impact 269W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 270W

Entry Clearances: India and have translated the business visitor visa application form guidance into six languages, including Hindi. The Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for UK is home to over 700 of the 1,200 Indian companies Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions with bases in Europe. Other changes, such as the he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home entrepreneurs and investors visas, are designed to continue Department on the effect on trade of visa processing to enhance such close links. times for visitors from India. [72092] Longer term visitor visas of two, five, and 10 years are available for visitors who have a history of regular Mr Prisk: The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation travel to the UK and sustained need to do so. and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Twickenham (Vince Cable), has had no specific discussions Skills and the Secretary of State for the Home Department with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, continue to work closely on immigration policy, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead particularly the impact on trade and investment. (Mrs May), on the impact of visa processing times on trade with India. Export Credits Guarantee Department However, close attention has been given to ensuring that visa regime changes have minimal impact on our Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, vital trade relationships, including with India. In 2010, Innovation and Skills what debt payments have been we issued approximately 56,500 business visitor visas received by the Export Credits Guarantee Department and 85% of these were issued within five working days. from (a) low and (b) middle-income countries in (i) This year our operation in India is meeting customer each of the last five years and (ii) the current financial processing targets of 90% of non-settlement applications year to date. [71906] processed within 15 working days. We have made a number of enhancements to assist Mr Davey: Categorisation of low and middle-income with the visa application process in India and a fast countries is based on the World Bank’s latest (2011) track service is available for an additional fee which classification of gross national income (GNI) per capita. expedites the process for visitors who have previously The following categories are used: lower income countries travelled to the UK which has proved very popular. We (LIC)—$1,005 or less, lower middle income countries also operate an expedited service for accredited businesses (LMIC)—$1,006 to $3,975 and upper middle income who send their employees to the UK regularly for work countries (UMIC)—$3,976 to $12,275.

Amount of recoveries (principal and interest) £ million1 2011-12 2010-11 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07

Central African Republic LIC — 0.02 — — — — Guinea LIC 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.02 0.02 0.02 Kenya LIC 0.73 1.31 1.38 1.99 1.92 1.27 Togo LIC — 13.08 — — — — Angola LMIC 1.28 — — 25.17 24.54 91.53 Cameroon LMIC — ————23.37 Congo LMIC 3.26 40.75 0.31 — 0.29 0.48 Egypt LMIC 6.55 12.14 12.47 16.21 15.43 13.45 Indonesia LMIC 21.74 65.48 112.15 120.32 107.69 90.03 Iraq LMIC 10.72 2.23 2.06 0.08 — — Morocco LMIC — — — — 2.38 4.62 NigeriaLMIC—————656.94 Pakistan LMIC 0.12 0.21 0.46 0.47 0.45 1.35 PhilippinesLMIC—————2.58 Senegal LMIC — ————0.89 Vietnam LMIC 0.44 0.80 0.78 1.04 0.99 0.83 AlgeriaUMIC—————119.64 Bosnia and Herzegovina UMIC 0.03 0.06 0.07 0.09 0.09 0.05 Ecuador UMIC 1.35 2.66 4.24 5.79 6.81 8.20 Gabon UMIC — — — — 112.11 20.36 Grenada UMIC 0.19 0.21 0.24 0.04 0.07 — Jamaica UMIC — — — 0.20 0.23 0.26 Jordan UMIC — — — — 335.31 19.24 Macedonia UMIC — ————1.98 Montenegro UMIC — — — 0.51 0.02 0.01 Peru UMIC — — — — 62.05 2.88 Russian Federation UMIC — ————390.78 Serbia UMIC — 8.96 10.16 13.36 11.74 10.06 Seychelles UMIC — — 0.02 — — 0.08 Total 46.42 147.92 144.35 185.29 682.14 1,460.9 1 These figures include payments received by the Export Credits Guarantee Department from the Department for International Development (DFID) on behalf of countries under the heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC) scheme: Central African Republic, Guinea, Togo, Cameroon, Republic of Congo and Senegal. 271W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 272W

Flexible Working During the same period, 20 capital projects were approved in the North East with an estimated value of Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for £15.8 million, attracting £3.5 million of grant funding Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has from the Department. In addition, £38.2 million was made on the need for further regulation on flexible paid out in respect of continuing capital grant commitments. working rights. [72210] Nationally, in 2010-11, 393 capital projects were approved with an estimated value of £308 million, attracting Mr Davey: The coalition Government have committed £76.1 million of grant funding from the Department. In to extending the right to request flexible working to all addition, the Department paid out £534 million in employees. grant funding in respect of 206 projects with continuing On 16 May I consulted on how to extend the right to capital grant commitments. request flexible working to all employees as part of the Modern Workplaces consultation. I published an impact assessment alongside the consultation on the costs and Higher Education: York benefits of the extension. The consultation closed on 8 August. We are currently Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for analysing the responses to the consultation and will Business, Innovation and Skills how much capital publish a Government response, and revised impact funding his Department has allocated to (a) Yo rk assessment, setting out our plans in due course. college, (b) the university of York and (c) the university of York St John in each year since 1992. Fossil Fuels: Export Credit Guarantees [71435] Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: The capital funding allocated by this Business, Innovation and Skills what recent progress Department and its predecessor Departments to York has been made on implementing the coalition college, the university of York and the university of agreement commitment to end the Export Credits York St John in each year between 1992 and 2000 is not Guarantee Department’s support for fossil fuel readily available. However, the capital allocations for projects. [72354] each of the institutions named since 2000/01 is as Mr Davey: The Government are still considering how follows: the coalition agreement to ensure that £ “UK Trade and Investment and the Export Credits Guarantee University of University of Department (ECGD) become champions for British companies York college York York St John that develop and export innovative green technologies around the world, instead of supporting investment in dirty fossil-fuel energy 2000/01 38,266 0 0 production” 2001/02 10,910 3,530,750 0 should be implemented but expect to reach a conclusion 2002/03 42,090 3,778,951 1,853,705 by the end of the year. When a decision is taken, an 2003/04 47,314 9,960,671 480,369 announcement will be made. Meanwhile, ECGD is 2004/05 15,927 9,598,750 1,695,801 actively reaching out to exporters of renewable energy 2005/06 6,148,811 8,901,524 95,667 equipment and services so that they are aware of the 2006/07 7,631,938 3,257,349 900,000 products available from ECGD to provide them with 2007/08 7,631,940 16,182,678 939,152 credit protection and facilitate the provision of finance. 2008/09 77,650 13,211,996 1,308,627 2009/10 113,645 26,823,315 1,251,150 Franchises 2010/11 202,474 1,746,914 939,136 2011/12 20,617 2,048,369 114,065 Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will review The university figures given cover capital payments regulations surrounding franchises to enable franchises for both teaching and research—hence the much higher to continue trading in circumstances where their parent figures for the university of York. A £2 million interest provider goes into liquidation. [71356] free recoverable grant paid in 2006/07 is included in the allocation to the university of York. This is repayable in Mr Davey: There are no regulations under company future years to the Higher Education Funding Council law unique to franchises and there are no plans to for England (HEFCE.) introduce them. Some of the figures provided differ to those provided Further Education: Buildings in my response to the hon. Member for York Central on 14 July 2011, Official Report, column 501W, as HEFCE Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for have changed their definition of ‘capital funding’ for Business, Innovation and Skills how much his analytical purposes. These differences are as follows: Department spent on college buildings (a) in Jarrow Some small funding streams are now included that are outside constituency, (b) in South Tyneside, (c) in the North the mainstream capital allocations targeting Poor Estates, e-Learning East and (d) nationwide in 2010-11. [70380] strategy, e-University and the Revolving Green Fund. Funding for the Joint Research Equipment Initiative and Minority Mr Hayes: In 2010-11, South Tyneside college had Subjects is now excluded. three capital projects approved with an estimated value The figures provided for York college now include £693,285 for of £4.8 million. This attracted £1.1 million of grant the period 2000/01 onwards paid by HEFCE in relation to higher funding from the Department. education delivery. 273W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 274W

Industry John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the number of Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for pre-packaged administrations that could be avoided if Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking suppliers were obliged to continue to supply companies to promote buying British products and produce; and if in administration. [67552] he will make a statement. [66102] Mr Davey: It is difficult to estimate with any certainty Mr Prisk: This Government fully recognise the the number of pre-packaged administrations that could importance of UK manufacturing and its key role in be avoided if suppliers were obliged to continue to rebalancing the economy. Working with business, the supply companies in administration. The Government Government are taking forward a range of actions to are aware of the arguments and data put forward by the strengthen UK capability in the design, development Association of Business Recovery Professionals in this and manufacture of products and produce. As set out in regard. More detailed assessment would have to look at the Plan for Growth (March 2011) these include actions the implications for all companies, not just those in to improve technology commercialisation, to improve insolvency, including any ’knock on’ insolvency risk for firms access to a skilled workforce, and to improve the suppliers. image of the sector. In addition, this Department, through John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, UK Trade and Investment (UKTI), is helping to promote Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the number of UK products and produce to customers abroad, and liquidations that could be averted if suppliers were launched its new strategy in May to help boost economic obliged to continue to supply companies in growth by increasing exports and encouraging foreign administration. [67553] companies to invest in the UK. Although the Government want to encourage as Mr Davey: It is difficult to estimate with any certainty many jobs and activity in the UK as possible, we the number of liquidations that could be averted if operate in a global marketplace, and a large part of the suppliers were obliged to continue to supply companies UK’s economic success has resulted from our ability to in administration. participate in global trade and investment. Favouring The Government are aware of the arguments and domestic suppliers over imports or distorting procurement data put forward by the Association of Business Recovery decisions would damage the long-term prospects of UK Professionals in this regard. More detailed analysis companies to compete in world markets and be costly would have to look at the implications for all companies, for the UK economy. not just those in insolvency, including any ’knock on’ insolvency risk for suppliers. Insolvency Lighters: Safety John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to take to Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for ensure that after-the-event fee review in insolvency Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he cases does not enable minority creditors or directors to has made of the number of pocket lighters on sale in reverse decisions made by the body of creditors as a the UK which do not meet safety requirements; what steps his Department has taken to implement whole. [67550] Commission Decision 2006/502/EC; and what Mr Davey: The Department is currently reviewing assessment he has made of the effectiveness of such responses to the consultation on the regulation of insolvency steps in restricting the availability of unsafe pocket practitioners. The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) have lighters. [72812] recommended that an independent body be set up to Mr Davey: The market surveillance of lighters is the deal with complaints about insolvency practitioners responsibility of local authority trading standards services and that this could include complaints about the fees in Great Britain and district councils in Northern Ireland. they charge. The intention is to improve the way creditors BIS officials do not formally assess the effectiveness of engage in the insolvency process, and I will be announcing this market surveillance, however, we are aware that a the way forward shortly as part of the Government number of authorities have been taking action in response response to the consultation. to concerns from the industry. John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, This Department has not made any recent estimate Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of on the number of pocket lighters on the UK market the effects on creditor returns of after-the-event fee that do not meet minimum safety standards. However, a review in insolvency cases where complaints are not press release by the European Federation of Lighter upheld. [67551] Manufacturers on 22 September estimated that of the 100 million lighters on the UK market up to 79% may Mr Davey: The Department is currently reviewing be non-compliant. This does not necessarily mean that responses to the consultation on the regulation of insolvency they are unsafe. practitioners, which sought views on whether an Each May since 2006 we have issued a direction to independent complaints body should be set up which the local authorities to implement Commission Decision would have the power to review the fees they charge. We 2006/502/EC to ensure that only lighters that are child have not quantified the specific effect on creditor returns resistant are placed on the market. I will continue to where complaints are not upheld. However, the benefits issue directions until the work on the revised European identified within the package of policy options consulted standard on child resistant lighters has reached the on significantly outweigh the costs of dealing with fee point where it can support consistent enforcement across complaints. the EU. 275W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 276W

Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has and Skills (BIS) was created on 5 June 2009 by the made of the number of pocket lighters on sale that do machinery of government (MOG) change merging the not meet minimum safety standards; whether his Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Department has assessed the fire risks presented by Reform (BERR) and the Department for Innovation, such lighters; and what steps his Department has taken Universities and Skills (DIUS). Neither of these two to ensure that trading standards officers remove such predecessor Departments existed in 2001-02. products from the market. [72731] Due to the age of the information requested and the machinery of Government changes since that period, Mr Davey: The market surveillance of lighters is the an answer could be produced only at disproportionate responsibility of Local Authority Trading Standards cost. Services in Great Britain and District Councils in Northern Ireland. BIS officials do not formally assess the effectiveness Medical Research Council of this market surveillance, however, we are aware that a number of authorities have been taking action in response Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for to concerns from the industry. Business, Innovation and Skills (1) whether the This Department has not made an estimate on the Medical Research Council accepts funding from number of pocket lighters on the UK market that do non-public sources; how much such funding has been not meet minimum safety standards. However, a press received in the last five years for which figures are release by the European Federation of Lighter available; from what sources; and for what purposes; Manufacturers on 22 September estimates that of the [71403] 100 million lighters on the UK market up to 79% may (2) how much was given to the Medical Research be non-compliant. Council from the public purse in each of the last five The collection of fire statistics is a responsibility of years for which figures are available. [71406] the Department for Communities and Local Government. UK fire statistics show that seven people died in 2009/10 Mr Willetts: The Medical Research Council (MRC) in fires caused by cigarette lighters. However, the fire receives its core funding allocation from the Department statistics do not identify whether the lighters were unsafe. for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) in line with the Each May since 2006 we have issued a Direction to Government spending review cycle. The MRC also receives the local authorities to implement Commission Decision additional funding from other stakeholders to take 2006/502/EC to ensure that only lighters that are child forward collaborative projects and joint initiatives which resistant are placed on the market. I will continue to increase the impact of the MRC’s work and the public issue Directions until the work on the revised European funding it receives. This includes funding from other standard on child resistant lighters has reached the Government Departments, such as the Department of point where it can support consistent enforcement across Health and the Department for International Development the EU. and the other UK health departments, Government agencies such as the Food Standards Agency, the NHS Mass Media and other UK research councils, and other stakeholders including medical research charities. The MRC also Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for receives funding from other grant awarding bodies in Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what the total cost the UK and overseas which supports research projects to the public purse was of his Department’s national MRC research units and institutes. In addition, the media coverage evaluations in each month between MRC receives royalty income derived from the successful June 2001 and May 2002; [68363] exploitation of the research it funds. (2) how many (a) special advisers and (b) press A summary of MRC funding, including a breakdown officers his Department employed between June 2001 of public and non-public funding is shown in the following and May 2002; and what the cost to the public purse table. Further information can be found in the MRC’s was in (i) cash and (ii) real terms of such appointments. annual report and accounts, available from [68328] www.mrc.ac.uk

£ million 2009/10 2008/09 2007/08 2006/07 2005/06

Total resource and capital expenditure per finance tables in annual account 868.8 809.7 687.1 622.8 567.6

Funded by: Core funding from BIS1 722.5 680.8 550.0 548.5 500.4 External income (see breakdown below) 95.0 80.1 76.7 74.3 67.2 Royalty income and commercial fund interest 51.3 48.8 60.4 — — Total 868.8 809.7 687.1 622.8 567.6 1 Includes non cash.

£ million 2009/10 2008/09 2007/08 2006/07 2005/06

External income 95.0 80.1 76.7 74.3 67.2 277W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 278W

£ million 2009/10 2008/09 2007/08 2006/07 2005/06

Public 41.1 39.9 43.7 46.3 42.4 Other research councils 9.7 5.9 5.5 3.5 3.4 European Commission 7.2 7.4 6.7 4.9 3.2 Human Frontiers Science programme (an International funding organisation) — 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.3 Health authorities and NHS Trusts 4.4 1.7 2.1 1.6 1.5 Universities 2.0 8.5 5.6 3.6 2.8 Contributions from other Government Departments 17.8 16.2 23.6 32.5 31.2

Non public 53.9 40.2 33.0 28.0 24.8 Collaboration with Industry 13.2 11.9 11.3 3.4 1.1 Charities 14.9 14.9 15.7 15.5 14.8 Contributions and grants from other bodies 8.9 — — 3.2 3.8 Sales and other income 16.9 13.0 5.9 5.7 5.1 Interest — 0.4 0.1 0.2 —

Metals Nuclear Reactors: Research

Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to Business, Innovation and Skills what research and establish a list of cash transactions at scrap metal development the UK research councils are funding on yards. [71549] (a) nuclear engineering design and (b) the building of the next generation of nuclear reactors. [72412]

James Brokenshire [holding answer 13 September 2011]: Mr Willetts: The research councils co-ordinate funding I have been asked to reply. for energy research through the Research Councils UK The Government recognise the significance of metal (RCUK) Energy Programme which brings together all theft to the United Kingdom and that some scrap metal facets of energy research, knowledge transfer, engagement, yards are a disposal route for stolen metal. The Home and training across the councils, in a programme which Office is in discussion with other Government Departments includes nuclear fission. The RCUK Energy Programme to identify whether any legislative changes should be currently (as of July 2011) has a nuclear portfolio of made to tackle the theft of metal. £48 million of projects. Projects totalling £23 million are directly relevant to Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for the next generation of nuclear reactors but many other Business, Innovation and Skills what consideration his projects will provide underpinning research that will Department has given to establishing a register of cash also be useful in this area. transactions at scrap metal yards. [71759] Overseas Students James Brokenshire: I have been asked to reply. The Government recognise the significance of metal Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for theft to the United Kingdom and that some scrap metal Business, Innovation and Skills what information his yards are a disposal route for stolen metal. The Home Department holds on the (a) number and (b) country Office is in discussion with other Government Departments of origin of foreign nationals who have attended an (i) to identify whether any legislative changes should be independent college, (ii) maintained college and (iii) made to tackle the theft of metal. university in each of the last five academic years. [72656] National Apprenticeship Service Mr Willetts: The numbers of European Union (EU) and non-EU domiciled enrolments at English higher Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for education institutions are shown for the academic years Business, Innovation and Skills who the chief 2005/06 to 2009/10 in Table 1 which will be placed in accounting officer for the National Apprenticeship the Libraries of the House. Information on the nationality Service is; and what plans he has for the future of this of enrolments in higher education is not comprehensive role. [69676] and country of domicile is provided as a more robust alternative. Figures are taken from the Higher Education Mr Hayes: The chief executive of the National Statistics Agency Student Record which covers students Apprenticeship Service is the accounting officer for the studying in the United Kingdom (UK). Information for National Apprenticeship Service. Under his leadership, the 2010/11 academic year will become available from the National Apprenticeship Service has end to end January 2012. responsibility for apprenticeships including the delivery Table 2 as follows shows the number of learners of the programme and accountability for ensuring high participating in English further education colleges quality standards and value for money for the public with a country of domicile of EU, non-EU, UK and investment in apprenticeships. non-UK in 2005/06 to 2009/10, the latest years for 279W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 280W which final data are available. Information on the Further education colleges include general further nationality of learners in further education is not available. education colleges, sixth-form colleges, special colleges However, colleges do capture country of domicile (agricultural and horticultural colleges and art and information for funding purposes. design colleges) and specialist colleges. Information for independent and maintained colleges is not available.

Table 2: Further education learner participation in colleges by country of domicile, 2005/06 to 2009/10 Number Country of domicile 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

EU 2,978,740 2,417,570 2,487,540 2,660,620 2,552,840 Non-EU 8,170 6,930 6,900 7,100 5,990

UK 2,952,250 2,391,210 2,464,700 2,640,490 2,536,730 Non-UK 34,660 33,300 29,740 27,230 22,100

Not known 40,450 133,140 50,790 117,460 106,970

Total 3,027,360 2,557,650 2,545,230 2,785,170 2,665,790 Notes: 1. These data include learning in the Learner Responsive, Apprenticeship, Train to Gain, Adult Safeguarded Learning and University for Industry funding streams delivered in general further education colleges including tertiary, sixth-form colleges, special colleges (agricultural and horticultural colleges and art and design colleges), specialist colleges and external institutions. 2. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 3. UK figures include learners with a country of domicile of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. 4. EU countries are as defined at the start of the 2009/10 academic year. Source: Individualised Learner Record.

Government-funded learning as recorded on the the Bangladesh Brand Forum, Wales Bangladesh Chamber Individualised Learner Record (ILR) for further education of Commerce, Gateway Asia and the Bangladesh high is restricted to home learners. Therefore funded learners commission in London by advising and supporting who are non-EEA (European Economic Area) nationals relevant business related activity. must have been resident in the UK for the three years Overseas Trade: Pakistan preceding their course start date and the main purpose for residence must not have been to receive full-time education during any part of that three-year period. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for There are a limited number of exceptions to this, for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking example—refugees, learners with indefinite leave to remain to encourage the development of business and trade status, or learners studying under reciprocal exchange links between Pakistan and (a) Leicester and (b) the agreements. East Midlands. [72806] Information on further education and skills participation and achievement is published in a quarterly Statistical Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) supports First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on trade and business links between the whole of the UK 23 June 2011: and Pakistan. Support is accessible to companies from any city or region in the UK, including Leicester and http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ the East Midlands, including through UKTI’s international statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current trade advisers. The Government are focused on the development of business links between the UK and Overseas Trade: Bangladesh Pakistan through the trade and business relations strand of the Prime Minister-led Enhanced Strategic Dialogue. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for UKTI has six trade officers in three locations (Islamabad, Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking Karachi and Lahore), who provide advice and support to encourage the development of business and trade to UK companies who are either interested or active in links between Bangladesh and (a) Leicester and (b) the country. It works closely with the Pakistan high the East Midlands. [72807] commission in the UK, including with the Consul in Manchester, and organised a major Doing Business in Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) supports Pakistan event on 10 February 2011 in London, with trade and business links between the whole of the UK 80 business representatives from across the UK. and Bangladesh. Support is accessible to companies from any city or region in the UK, including Leicester Police: Compensation and the East Midlands, through UKTI’s network of international trade advisers. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for UKTI has four trade officers based at the British Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to his written high commission in Dhaka, who provide advice and statement of 11 August 2011, Official Report, columns support to UK companies who are either interested or 119-21WS, how many claims for financial active in the country and to Bangladeshi companies compensation have been made to each police authority wishing to import from or invest in the UK. UKTI under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886; what the works with Bangladesh business support groups including monetary value is of payments made to date; what the 281W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 282W monetary value is of outstanding claims; what the Postal Services: Competition monetary value is of claims made to date under the High Street Support Scheme; how much has been paid Jack Lopresti: To ask the Secretary of State for out to date under the scheme; how many claims remain Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his outstanding; and when he expects all outstanding Department has made of the effects of competition in claims to be paid. [71668] the mail services sector. [72561]

Nick Herbert: I have been asked to reply. Mr Davey: Government commissioned the independent Police authorities are receiving claims under the Riot Hooper report of 2008 and update of 2010 to assess the (Damages) Act 1886 from individuals affected by the effects of liberalisation on the postal services market. riots and direct from insurers for the cost of damage to Among its findings, the Hooper report said that postal property and their contents during the riots. The full competition remains important in keeping pressure on extent of the costs will not be known until after the Royal Mail to improve its performance, offering choice 42 day deadline for claims. to customers and driving innovation across the whole 35 local authorities have registered an intention to market. claim assistance under the High Street Support Scheme The Postal Services Act 2011 (PSA2011), which was but no actual claims have been received yet and therefore enacted in June, provides for the implementation of no funding paid out. The deadline for receipt of claims Hooper’s package of recommendations—enabling private is 7 November. We will pay valid claims within 15 days sector investment in Royal Mail, fixing the regulatory of receipt. regime and tackling Royal Mail’s pension deficit. More information on Hooper’s findings and the Postal Services Postal Services Act 2011 can be found on the Department’s website: http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/business-sectors/postal-services Jack Lopresti: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Public Sector made of the role of access customers in providing support to Royal Mail to deliver its universal service Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for obligation. [72560] Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with the Minister for the Cabinet Office on the Mr Davey: Government commissioned the independent effect of the public sector on (a) the creation of local Hooper report of 2008 and update of 2010 to assess the jobs and (b) economic recovery; and if he will make a effects of liberalisation on the postal services market. statement. [72109] Among its findings, the Hooper report said access prices should reflect costs, but users should not pay for Mr Prisk: The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation inefficiencies and competitors should not be subsidised. and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for The Postal Services Act 2011 provides Ofcom, as the Twickenham (Vince Cable), has met the Minister for the new regulator, with a primary duty in relation to post to Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, my right hon. secure the provision of a universal postal service throughout Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), from the UK. Among other things, the Act provides Ofcom time to time to discuss issues of mutual concern to their with the power to require other postal operators (including Departments. access users) to contribute towards the cost of the Research Councils universal service. This option would only be considered if it was ever Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for determined that it was unfair for the universal service Business, Innovation and Skills what the geographic provider to bear the whole of the financial burden for spread is of the membership of research council providing a universal service throughout the UK. More committees in each region. [72413] information about the Postal Services Act 2011 can be found on the Department’s website: Mr Willetts: The regional spread of council members http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/business-sectors/postal-services for each research council is as follows:

AHRC BBSRC EPSRC ESRC MRC NERC STFC

South-west 1 1 2 3 — 4 1 South-east 3 4 3 1 — — 5 London 6 1 5 6 6 4 1 East — 4 2—1 11 West midlands 1 1 — 2 — — 2 East midlands — 1 1 — — 1 1 North-west — 2 — — — 1 — Yorkshire 1 — 1 — 1 2 — North-east — — — — 1 — — Scotland 2 1 1 2 3 2 — Wales — 2 — — 1 — — Northern Ireland — — — — — — — International — — 2 — 2 — — 283W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 284W

The location is determined by institution where the Union Modernisation Fund round two projects council member is employed or where they live, which Amount paid ever is more appropriate. Union Project title (£) Bakers, Food and Modernising our 10,500.00 Serco Allied Workers Union Organisation (BFAWU) Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, GMB Developing Modern 76,210.05 Management Methods in the Innovation and Skills how many contracts his GMB Department holds with SERCO; and what the (a) Musicians’ Union Managing Change: 47,452.13 purpose and (b) monetary value of each such contract (MU) Transforming our Traditional is. [58662] Structures

1 Mr Davey: BIS have only one contract with Serco. Union Modernisation Fund round three projects Amount paid The details are as follows: Union Project title (£) There is a joint contract for Technical Assessments of Queen’s Awards applications with SERCO, BETA and ERM. SERCO is Bakers, Food and Reaching Out 32,690.20 the lead partner to this contract and payments are made directly Allied Workers Union (BFAWU) to them. The contract is for three years and valued at £600,000 (£200,000 per annum) however the final value will be determined GMB Engaging Communities and 13,488.00 Building Social Capital by the number of applications received for each award category. Union of Shop, Engaging Vulnerable Workers 56,689.10 Distributive and Allied Students: Immigration Workers (USDAW) 1 These projects are not yet complete. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Vacancies Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department regarding the potential effect of reforms Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for to the student immigration system on the higher Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has education sector; [72050] made of the findings of the British Chambers of (2) what discussions he has had with the Secretary of Commerce Workforce Survey, Micro Businesses, on the State for the Home Department regarding the potential ability of employers to fill vacancies. [72107] effect of reforms to the student immigration system on Mr Davey: This Department is leading the cross- economic growth. [72051] Government employment law review and is looking at Mr Willetts: Ministers from the Department for Business, all evidence about the operation of underpinning legislative Innovation and Skills have met regularly with Ministers framework and burdens on business, including from from the Home Office since the formation of the coalition business representative groups, trades unions and other Government to discuss a number of issues relating to stakeholders. A key objective of the review is making it the changes to and implementation of the student easier for a business to take on staff. The review will immigration system. We have discussed the potential also consider ideas that emerge from the Red Tape impact of the reforms on the sector reflecting consultation Challenge aimed at facilitating the recruitment of employees with the sector as well as the details of implementation by businesses. of the new regulations. York College: Finance Union Modernisation Fund Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what budget his Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Department has provided for York college in (a) cash of 12 September 2011, Official Report, column 1043W, and (b) real terms in each year since 2004. [71434] on Union Modernisation Fund, how much has been given to the Campaign Company from the Union Mr Hayes: The Skills Funding Agency (SFA) (and Modernisation Fund (UMF) Project, by UMF project. the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) prior to April [72240] 2010) has responsibility for funding post-19 further education (FE) and skills training. Funding allocations Mr Davey: A list of the Union Modernisation Fund to York college by the LSC and the SFA for post-19 FE (UMF) projects who have worked with the Campaign and skills are provided in the following table. Company and the amounts paid to the company are as follows. These amounts include matched funding as £ well as UMF grants. Academic 19+ cash Real terms year allocation1 2011-122 Union Modernisation Fund round one projects Amount paid Skills Funding 2011/12 3,440,461 3,440,461 Union Project title (£) Agency 2010/11 3,456,250 3,556,481 Bakers, Food and Membership Diversity and 68,816.56 Allied Workers Union Membership and Transition from LSC (BFAWU) Communication Systems to Agency and YPLA Community and Developing the Virtual Union 10,379.07 Learning and Skills 2009/10 2,417,724 2,561,612 District Nursing empowering members in a Council Association (CDNA) small union 2008/09 2,677,257 2,882,777 GMB Race and Diversity 66,510.60 2007/08 3,153,330 3,489,345 285W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 286W

HEALTH £ Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse Academic 19+ cash Real terms year allocation1 2011-122 Mrs Laing: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2006/07 3,341,370 3,803,354 with reference to paragraph 4.4.1 of the NHS Information Centre publication, Statistics on Alcohol: 2005/06 2,892,360 3,402,776 England 2011, which disease, injury or condition accounts for the largest proportion of the increase in 2004/05 3,953,000 4,734,931 alcohol-related admissions since 2002-03. [71738]

1 Source: Skills Funding Agency allocation data for 19+ participation Anne Milton: Hypertensive diseases accounts for the (excluding additional learning support) and discretionary learner support. 2 These figures have been calculated using HM Treasury deflators, last updated largest proportion of increase in alcohol-related admissions 28 June 2011. since 2002-03. This is shown in the following table.

Alcohol-related1 NHS2 hospital admissions3, 2002-03 to 2009-104,5, England Increase from ICD-10 Code6 2002-03 2009-10 2002-03 to 2009-10 % of total increase

Total 510,800 1,057,000 546,200 —

Total—wholly attributable7 131,100 265,200 134,100 25

F10 Mental and behavioural 83,400 177,400 94,000 17 disorders due to use of alcohol F10.0 Acute intoxication 22,400 55,200 32,800 6 F10.1 Harmful use 18,300 41,100 22,800 4 F10.2 Dependence syndrome 29,500 54,700 25,200 5 F10.3 Withdrawal state 9,200 21,900 12,700 2 F10.4 Withdrawal state with delirium 1,200 1,200 0 0 F10.5 Psychotic disorder 600 500 -100 0 F10.6 Amnesic syndrome 600 1,100 500 0 F10.7 Residual and late-onset 500 600 100 0 psychotic disorder F10.8 Other mental and behavioural 100 100 0 0 disorders due to use of alcohol F10.9 Unspecified mental and 1,100 1,000 -100 0 behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol K70 Alcoholic liver disease 25,700 43,100 17,400 3 K70.0 Alcoholic fatty liver 400 1,000 600 0 K70.1 Alcoholic hepatitis 1,600 2,700 1,100 0 K70.2 Alcoholic fibrosis and sclerosis 200 200 0 0 of liver K70.3 Alcoholic cirrhosis of liver 7,200 16,400 9,200 2 K70.4 Alcoholic hepatic failure 1,100 2,600 1,500 0 K70.9 Alcoholic liver disease, 15,300 20,200 4,900 1 unspecified T518 Toxic effect of alcohol 16,000 33,600 17,600 3 T51.0 Toxic effect of ethanol 12,300 30,300 18,000 3 T51.1 Toxic effect of methanol 100 0 -100 0 T51.9 Toxic effect of alcohol, 3,600 3,300 -300 0 unspecified Other wholly—attributable 6,000 11,200 5,200 1 conditions E24.4 Alcohol-induced pseudo- 0000 Cushing’s syndrome G31.2 Degeneration of nervous system 400 700 300 0 due to alcohol G62.1 Alcoholic polyneuropathy 200 300 100 0 G72.1 Alcoholic myopathy 100 100 0 0 I42.6 Alcoholic cardiomyopathy 800 1,100 300 0 K29.2 Alcoholic gastritis 1,200 1,900 700 0 K86.0 Chronic pancreatitis (alcohol 3,100 7,000 3,900 1 induced) X45 Accidental poisoning by and 200 200 0 0 exposure to alcohol 287W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 288W

Alcohol-related1 NHS2 hospital admissions3, 2002-03 to 2009-104,5, England

Increase from ICD-10 Code6 2002-03 2009-10 2002-03 to 2009-10 % of total increase

Total—partly attributable9 379,700 791,700 412,000 75

Accidents and injuries 20,000 27,000 7,000 1

W78-W79 Inhalation of gastric contents/ 200 700 500 0 Inhalation and ingestion of food causing obstruction of the respiratory tract

W00-W19 Fall injuries 17,400 23,800 6,400 1

W24-W31 Work/machine injuries 1,400 1,500 100 0

W32-W34 Firearm injuries 200 100 -100 0

W65-W74 Drowning 0 0 0 0

X00-X09 Fire injuries 600 700 100 0

X31 Accidental excessive cold 100 200 100 0

Violence 21,700 28,100 6,400 1

X60-X84, Y10-Y33 Intentional self-harm/Event of 14,200 19,600 5,400 1 undetermined intent

X85-Y09 Assault 7,500 8,500 1,000 0

Transport accidents 5,700 5,400 -300 0

V02-V04 (.1, .9), V06.1, V09.2, Pedestrian traffic accidents 1,100 1,100 0 0 V09.3

For codes see footnote 10 Road traffic accidents—non- 4,500 4,200 -300 0 pedestrian

V90-V94 Water transport accidents 100 100 0 0

V95-V97 Air/space transport accidents 0 0

Spontaneous abortion 8,700 9,300 600 0

O03 Spontaneous abortion 8,700 9,300 600 0

Digestive 14,000 22,200 8,200 2

K22.6 Gastro-oesophageal laceration- 1,100 1,200 100 0 haemorrhage syndrome

K73, K74 Unspecified liver disease 5,800 11,800 6,000 1

K85, K86.1 Acute and chronic pancreatitis 3,300 3,900 600 0

I85 Oesophageal varices 3,700 5,400 1,700 0

Cancer 29,400 36,900 7,500 1

C00-C14 Malignant neoplasm of lip, oral 5,200 9,700 4,500 1 cavity and pharynx

C15 Malignant neoplasm of 7,800 7,400 -400 0 oesophagus

C32 Malignant neoplasm of larynx 1,200 1,500 300 0

C18 Malignant neoplasm of colon 2,800 2,200 -600 0

C20 Malignant neoplasm of rectum 2,800 2,100 -700 0

C22 Malignant neoplasm of liver and 500 700 200 0 intrahepatic bile ducts

C50 Malignant neoplasm of breast 9,100 13,300 4,200 1

Hypertensive diseases 136,000 383,900 247,900 45

I10-I15 Hypertensive diseases 136,000 383,900 247,900 45

Cardiac arrhythmias 87,000 182,300 95,300 17

I47-I48 Cardiac arrhythmias 87,000 182,300 95,300 17

Other partly-attributable 57,200 96,600 39,400 7 conditions

G40-G41 Epilepsy and Status epilepticus 48,800 86,500 37,700 7

I60-I62, I69.0-I69.2 Haemorrhagic stroke 2,900 2,400 -500 0

I63-I66, I69.3, I69.4 Ischaemic stroke 1,600 1,200 -400 0 289W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 290W

Alcohol-related1 NHS2 hospital admissions3, 2002-03 to 2009-104,5, England Increase from ICD-10 Code6 2002-03 2009-10 2002-03 to 2009-10 % of total increase

L40 excluding cirrhosis L40.5 Psoriasis 4,000 6,500 2,500 0 1 The number of alcohol-related admissions is based on methodology developed by the North West Public Health Observatory (NWPHO). This methodology includes a wide range of diseases, injuries and conditions in which alcohol plays a part and estimates the proportion of cases that are attributable to the consumption of alcohol. Finished admission episodes are identified where an alcohol-related diagnosis is recorded in any of the 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) primary and secondary diagnosis fields in a Hospital Admission Statistics record. For each of these episodes, an attributable fraction is applied, based on the diagnostic codes, age group and gender of the patient. Where there is more than one alcohol-related condition among the diagnostic codes, the condition with the largest attributable fraction is used. Where there are two or more codes with the maximum attributable fraction, the code from the earliest diagnostic position is used. This method is employed to avoid double counting of the admission episodes related to alcohol and therefore each episode contributes to one cell in the table. The total number of alcohol-related admissions is arrived at by summing up the number of episodes counted against each alcohol-related condition. 2 The data include activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. 3 A finished admission episode is the first period of in-patient care under one health care provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 4 Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in data (i.e. the data are ungrossed). 5 Data includes only ordinary, day cases and maternity admissions, where the age and sex of the patient was known and where the region of residence was one of the English regions or no fixed abode or unknown. 6 International Classification of Diseases. 7 Wholly attributable conditions are alcohol-specific by definition and so have an attributable fraction of one. 8 The totals shown for T51—Toxic effect of alcohol, do not include the full breakdown for ICD-10 code T51, only T51.0, T51.1 and T51.9 as these cover types of alcohol most commonly found in alcoholic drinks. 9 Partially attributable conditions are those where some but not all cases are a result of alcohol consumption and so have an attributable fraction of less than one 10 ICD-10 codes for road traffic accidents: V12-V14 (.3 -.9), V19.4-V19.6, V19.9, V20-V28 (.3 -.9), V29-V79 (.4 -.9), V80.3-V80.5, V81.1, V82.1, V82.9, V83.0-V86 (.0 -.3), V87.0-V87.9, V89.2, V89.3, V89.9. Note: Admission numbers for 2003-03 to 2006-07 have been updated to include records relating to disease codes K73 (chronic hepatitis) and L40 (psoriasis), that were excluded unintentionally from the previous figures. As a result the latest figures are slightly higher than those published in the 2009 report. The minimum effect at a national level is to increase the total number of admissions by 543 admissions (0.07%) in 2005-06, while the maximum effect is an increase of 2,946 (0.37%) in 2006-07. Sources: Figures provided by The Department of Health based on: 1. Hospital Episode Statistics, The NHS Information Centre—Data for total number of admissions for each ICD-10 code. 2. North West Public Health Observatory—Attributable fractions for alcohol-related ICD-10 codes.

Mrs Laing: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Admissions with an alcohol-related diagnosis, where the primary diagnosis was pursuant to the answer of 19 July 2011, Official Report, not alcohol-related Estimated column 916W, on alcoholic drinks: misuse, what the number of primary diagnoses were for the 74 per cent. of alcohol- admissions in which the primary diagnosis was not ICD-10 ICD-10 related Chapter Codes Title admissions attributable to alcohol. [71739] XIII M00- Diseases of the musculoskeletal 60,504 M99 system and connective tissue XIV N00- Diseases of the genitourinary 43,720 Anne Milton: The data for the primary diagnoses for N99 system the 74% of admission in which primary diagnosis was XV O00-099 Pregnancy, childbirth and the 4,245 not attributable to alcohol are shown in the following puerperium table. XVI P00-P96 Certain conditions originating in the 1 perinatal period Admissions with an alcohol-related diagnosis, where the primary diagnosis was not alcohol-related XVII Q00-Q99 Congenital malformations, 1,291 deformations and chromosomal Estimated abnormalities number of alcohol- XVIII R00-R99 Symptoms, signs and abnormal 135,891 ICD-10 ICD-10 related clinical and laboratory findings, not Chapter Codes Title admissions elsewhere classified XIX S00-T98 Injury, poisoning and certain other 176,289 I A00-B99 Certain infectious and parasitic 7,150 consequences of external causes diseases XX V01-Y98 External causes of morbidity and II C00-D48 Neoplasms 55,729 mortality III D50- Diseases of the blood and blood- 13,783 XXI Z00-Z99 Factors influencing health status 20,794 D89 forming organs and certain and contact with health services disorders involving the immune XXII U00- Codes for special purposes — mechanism U99 IV E00-E90 Endocrine, nutritional and 14,222 metabolic diseases V F00-F99 Mental and behavioural disorders 8,383 Total 779,363 VI G00- Diseases of the nervous system 15,456 G99 Anti-Slavery Day VII H00- Diseases of the eye and adnexa 33,797 H59 VIII H60- Diseases of the ear and mastoid 1,894 Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for H95 process Health what plans his Department has to mark IX I00-I99 Diseases of the circulatory system 39,819 Anti-Slavery day 2011. [72517] X J00-J99 Diseases of the respiratory system 51,900 XI K00- Diseases of the digestive system 79,567 Mr Simon Burns: The Government are planning to K93 mark Anti-Slavery day with a range of events including XII L00-L99 Diseases of the skin and 14,928 the launch of a training and referral process for the subcutaneous tissue airline industry with a major United Kingdom airline. 291W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 292W

The Government are fully committed to combating sexual contact is sufficient to maintain the safety of the human trafficking by tackling organised crime groups blood supply. The change will be implemented by the and protecting the victims of this modern day slavery. blood services in England, Wales and Scotland on The Government published their strategy on human 7 November 2011. trafficking on 19 July. The strategy reiterates the UK’s intention to take a comprehensive approach to combating Botulinum Toxin trafficking—both by focusing on tackling traffickers and maintaining effective care for victims. Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether he has any plans to introduce a minimum The strategy also sets out our commitment to raising age limit for administration of Botulinum toxin; awareness of trafficking among the public and the [72522] private sector. The Government recognise the importance (2) what recent representations he has received on of Anti-Slavery day as an opportunity to improve the unauthorised administration of Botulinum toxin. understanding and increase vigilance in our communities. [72523] Blood: Donors Mr Simon Burns: Seven botulinum toxin-containing products are authorised in the United Kingdom: Botox, Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Dysport, Neurobloc, Xeomin, Azzulure, Bocouture and Health for what reasons sexually active gay and Vistabel. bisexual men are not permitted to donate blood Dysport and Botox are authorised for the treatment irrespective of their sexual history; and if he will make of children aged two years and above with cerebral a statement. [72659] palsy to control foot deformity caused by persistent muscle spasm in the leg. These products should be Anne Milton: The independent scientific Advisory administered in hospital or specialist centres. Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs, Neurobloc, Xeomin, Azzalure, Bocouture and Vistabel following advice from an expert Working Group comprised are not authorised for the treatment of children. The of relevant clinical experts and stakeholders from Summaries of Product Characteristics and Patient campaigning and equalities (the National Aids Trust, Information Leaflet for these products state that the Gay Men Fighting AIDS, Stonewall and the Terence safety and efficacy in children (under 18 years) have not Higgins Trust) and patient (UK Thalassaemia Society been demonstrated. and Sickle Cell Society) groups, has recommended that Any referral received by the Medicines and Healthcare the current lifetime deferral from blood donation for products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) which involves a men who have had sex with men should be changed to a suspected breach of regulatory requirements will be twelve-month deferral. This change has been accepted passed to the MHRA’s Enforcement Group to take in England, Wales and Scotland and will be implemented further action. Over the past 12 months, the MHRA’s from 7 November 2011. Enforcement Group has received 26 referrals concerning The 12-month deferral period was recommended as botulinum toxin which has either been administered or the evidence showed that in the UK men who have had advertised for administration in circumstances where it sex with men as a group continue to be at a statistically was suspected that the regulatory requirements were higher risk of contracting blood-borne viruses such as not/would not have been complied with. HIV and hepatitis B. Due to the nature of hepatitis B Organisations that offer the therapeutic use of botox virus infection, and of the screening tests used, it is in the national health service are properly regulated. A necessary to allow 12 months from any higher risk check of the Department’s correspondence and behaviour as this is long enough for the donor to have parliamentary questions database has not identified undergone and recovered from an infection. any recent representations specifically about unauthorised use, though it has received other inquiries (for example Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for about whether botox is licensed for specific indications) Health what assessment he has made of the and representations about cosmetic provision by unqualified compatibility of the restriction on blood donation by practitioners. men who have had sex with men in the previous 12 months with anti-discrimination legislation; and if Reports of suspected adverse drug reactions (ADRs) he will make a statement. [72660] are collected by the MHRA and Commission for Human Medicines through the spontaneous reporting scheme; Anne Milton: The Equality Act 2010 was considered the Yellow Card Scheme. Up to the 15 September 2011, as part of the review by the independent scientific the MHRA has received a total of 317 UK spontaneous Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues suspected ADR reports associated with clostridium and Organs (SaBTO) of donor deferral periods. The botulinum toxin. It is important to note that the extent Act states that blood services do not contravene anti- of off-label use cannot be calculated using ADR data discrimination legislation by excluding people from donating from the Yellow Card Scheme; the indication for use of blood as long as this exclusion or deferral is based on a the suspect drug on an ADR report is not always reasonable and reliable assessment of risk to the public provided and also it is recognised that there is under- or the individual. reporting of suspected ADRs through spontaneous reporting schemes such as the Yellow Card Scheme. SaBTO has recently recommended, on the basis of an assessment of risk based on the most up to date The Department urges anyone considering botox scientific evidence, that for men who have had sex with treatment for cosmetic purposes to check men a permanent deferral is not required and that a www.treatmentsyoucantrust.co.uk fixed period deferral of 12 months from latest relevant for a list of practitioners with appropriate qualifications. 293W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 294W

Breast Feeding by the relevant local authority in (a) Coventry and (b) England in the latest period for which figures are Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health available. [72361] what assessment he has made of the effects of breastfeeding on (a) emotional comfort, (b) maternal Paul Burstow: Data on the number of adults (aged 18 infant bonding and (c) long-term neurological and over) in receipt of local authority funded registered development. [72040] residential and nursing care is collected and published by the NHS Information Centre for health and social Anne Milton: The Department has not made any care. However, all local authority supported residents formal assessment of the effects of breastfeeding on can be charged for their care, following a financial emotional comfort, maternal infant bonding and the assessment by the local authority to decide what each long term neurological development. resident can afford to pay towards the cost of their care. In 2009 the Department commissioned the University We are informed by the Information Centre that of Oxford to undertake a study to examine the effects of there were 1,000 clients aged 18 and over in receipt of breastfeeding on behavioural development in children local authority funding as at 31 March 2010 in Coventry. aged five years. Though the findings, published in May 2011, There were also 226,000 clients aged 18 and over in suggest that children who were breastfed for at least receipt of local authority funding as at 31 March 2010 four months were less likely to have behavioural problems in England. at age five, the authors concluded that this observation Provisional data for the year ending 31 March 2011 is might have not been the direct result of breastfeeding. planned to be published in November 2011. The Department recognises the importance of breastfeeding and the health benefits it provides to both Care UK: Correspondence the mothers and infants. In particular, breastfeeding can protect infants from infections and can reduce the Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for risk of obesity in later childhood. Health if he will place in the Library a copy of each item of correspondence he has received from Care UK Care Homes: Fees and Charges management since October 2010. [72715]

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Simon Burns: The Department’s correspondence for Health which local authorities have indicated they database contains no correspondence from Care UK will increase the level of fees they pay to care homes in addressed to the Secretary of State for Health, my right the 2011-12 financial year. [72360] hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley). Paul Burstow: The detail of contracting arrangements between local authorities and independent sector care Cataracts: Waiting Lists homes, including the level of fees, is a matter for local decision between local authorities and providers. Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Information about the level of fees is not collected Health what the average waiting time is for cataract centrally. However, according to the independent analysts treatment in each region. [72818] Laing and Buisson, the majority of local authorities in England have not increased their fees in 2011-12. Mr Simon Burns: The provisional 2010-11 mean and median waiting times for cataract treatment in each Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State strategic health authority (SHA) are provided in the for Health how many care home residents were funded following table.

Mean and median waiting time1 and count of finished admission episodes (FAEs)2 for main procedures3 of cataract treatment3 within each SHA of commissioner4; 2010-11 (provisional data) Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Total episodes in each SHA of SHA of commissioner commissioner Mean waiting time (days) Median waiting time (days)

Total 342,733 64 57 North East Strategic Health 21,263 58 56 Authority North West Strategic Health 46,519 68 63 Authority Yorkshire and the Humber Strategic 35,123 56 48 Health Authority East Midlands Strategic Health 29,879 59 56 Authority West Midlands Strategic Health 33,858 69 63 Authority East of England Strategic Health 35,621 60 52 Authority London Strategic Health Authority 44,420 58 50 South East Coast Strategic Health 29,118 71 64 Authority South Central Strategic Health 22,886 71 65 Authority 295W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 296W

Mean and median waiting time1 and count of finished admission episodes (FAEs)2 for main procedures3 of cataract treatment3 within each SHA of commissioner4; 2010-11 (provisional data) Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Total episodes in each SHA of SHA of commissioner commissioner Mean waiting time (days) Median waiting time (days)

South West Strategic Health 38,896 73 67 Authority Foreign (including Other British 882 n/a n/a Isles, Isle of Man and Channel Islands) Unknown 4,268 34 21 1 Time waited (days) statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are not the same as published Referral to Treatment (RTT) time waited statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients between decision to admit and admission to hospital within a given period. Published RTT waiting statistics measure the time waited between referral and start of treatment. Unlike HES, RTT waiting time data is not adjusted for self-deferrals or periods of medical/social suspension. 2 The mean and median waiting time and a count of finished admission episodes (FAEs) with a main procedure for cataract treatments has been provided within each SHA of commissioner; for the latest year 2010-11 (which is currently provisional data). 3 Main procedure—contains four cataract treatments. The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention performed during the episode. It is appropriate to use main procedure when looking at admission details, (eg time waited), but a more complete count of episodes with a particular procedure is obtained by looking at the main and the secondary procedures. The following combination of OPCS-4 codes were specified to identify cataract treatment: C71—Extracapsular extraction of lens C72—Intracapsular extraction of lens C73—Incision of capsule of lens C74—Other extraction of lens C75—Prosthesis of lens 4 SHA of commissioner—identifies the SHA in which the commissioner is located. Note: These data are provisional and may be incomplete or contain errors for which no adjustments have yet been made. Counts produced from provisional data are likely to be lower than those generated for the same period in the final dataset. This shortfall will be most pronounced in the final month of the latest period, ie November from the (month 9) April to November extract. It is also probable that clinical data are not complete, which may in particular affect the last two months of any given period. There may also be errors due to coding inconsistencies that have not yet been investigated and corrected. Final in-patient data for 2010-11 will be published by The NHS Information Centre on 2 November 2011.

College of Social Work Community Resuscitation

Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress has been made on the (a) Health what assessment his Department has made of creation of a College of Social Work, (b) the cost-effectiveness of community resuscitation Memorandum of Understanding and Service Level provision. [72436] Agreement reached between the Interim Board and Unison and (c) Memorandum of Understanding Mr Simon Burns: The Department has made no such reached between the Interim Board and BASW at the assessment. However, in 2007 an evaluation of the role meeting of the Social Care Institute for Excellence of community defibrillation officers, as part of the Board on 15 September; and if he will make a National Defibrillation Programme, found that they statement. [72152] had ensured that more defibrillators were deployed in the community, more individuals had been trained and retrained in their use and that where co-ordinated systems Paul Burstow: The Government asked the Social of response were in place, this increased the potential Care Institute for Excellence (SCIE) to support the for early defibrillation. As a result, lives had been saved. development of the College of Social Work. To do this, SCIE convened a College Development Group bringing Day Centres together relevant parties from the sector. This group oversaw the open recruitment of interim Chairs of the college and an interim board which began work in Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health October 2010. what assessment he has made of the effect of reductions in funding to local authorities on the As part of its business planning and development the number of day centres operational in (a) England, (b) interim board has undertaken work to develop a viable the west midlands and (c) Dudley borough. [72343] and sustainable business model. Defining appropriate relationships with other organisations operating in the social work sector is of course an important part of Paul Burstow: The responsibility for addressing and this. commissioning social care needs of local communities rests with local authorities. The college remains in discussion with UNISON The Government recognise the importance of social over future relationships and joint working. It has recently care services and have taken steps to ensure that local signalled to the British Association of Social Workers authorities have sufficient funds to provide them. In that it wishes to place further discussions around potential recognition of the pressures on the social care system in merger on hold until early 2012. It is our understanding a challenging fiscal climate, we have allocated an additional that the college is not in a position to enter into any £2 billion by 2014-15 to support the delivery of social contract until it is legally established as a separate care. With an ambitious programme of efficiency, there organisation at that point. will be enough funding available both to protect people’s SCIE is an independent charity and Government are access to services and deliver new approaches to improve not represented on its Board. quality and outcomes. 297W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 298W

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to achieve the lowest price, bookers are required to what information his Department holds on the number consider using consolidators (services, like brokers, that of day centres which were operational in (a) England, compare flight prices across a range of airlines for a (b) the west midlands and (c) Dudley borough (i) on particular flight route for the same time period), discounted the most recent date for which figures are available and fares, promotional offers and ‘no-frills’/low-cost airlines. (ii) in each of the last five years. [72344] There is also a requirement that e-tickets are issued where this saves money. Paul Burstow: Information on the number of day The supplier must provide at least one alternative fare centres is not collected centrally. for every inquiry/booking made for air travel, and must Dental Services offer the lowest practical fare available at the time of booking. They are also obliged to maximise the benefits available to the Department, enhancing point of sale John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health activity in support of departmental requirement to how many dental (a) extractions and (b) restorations reduce costs. were performed by NHS dentists in each of the last four years by primary care trusts. [72282] Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers Mr Simon Burns: Information is not available in the format requested. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Information on the estimated total number of national Health (1) what the resource budget allocation was for health service clinical dental treatment items provided the office of his Department’s chief scientific adviser in to adults in 2009-10 and 2010-11 is available in Table 5b each of the last five years for which figures are of the “NHS Dental Statistics for England: 2010/11” available; [72475] report. (2) what the salary, including benefits, was of his Clinical dental treatment items include extractions, Department’s chief scientific adviser in each of the last permanent fillings and sealant restorations, veneer(s) five years for which figures are available; and how applied, inlay(s) and crown(s) provided. The publication many individuals have held the post in the last five does not contain a definition for ’restorations’. years; [72476] Table 5e contains the same information for NHS (3) how many full-time equivalent staff were clinical dental treatment items provided to children. employed in the office of his Department’s chief scientific adviser in each of the last five years for which This report, published on 18 August 2011 has been figures are available; and on what date the office was placed in the Library and is also available on the NHS established. [72477] Information Centre website at: http://www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats1011 Mr Simon Burns: The chief scientific adviser (CSA) Comparable information for earlier years is not available. at the Department of Health is Professor Dame Sally C Davies. Departmental Air Travel Dame Sally has been CSA and responsible for research and development since 2004. In addition to these John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Health responsibilities, Dame Sally was appointed Chief Medical which travel management companies his Department Officer for England and Chief Medical Adviser to the uses for the purchase of airline tickets. [72691] UK Government on 1 March 2011. Mr Simon Burns: The Department is currently contracted There is no dedicated CSA support office at the with Flight Centre UK Ltd, trading as FCm Travel Department. Colleagues across the Department support Solutions, for all its travel requirements, including airline Dame Sally in her CSA role. tickets. Connecting for Health are using Expotel (with Dame Sally is a Permanent Secretary. Salaries for effect from 19 September 2011). senior civil servants are published on the Cabinet Office website: John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/senior-civil- what (a) contractual obligations and (b) other servants-high-earners-salaries processes his Department uses in respect of travel management companies to ensure the best value is Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for achieved when purchasing airline tickets. [72705] Health what his policy is on requiring his Department’s (a) agencies and non-departmental public bodies and Mr Simon Burns: Suppliers are required to provide (b) contractors to have a written code of practice or services in accordance with the Department’s policy. protocol relating to the provision, conduct and quality The Department’s travel policy states that staff are assurance of scientific evidence and advice. [72478] required to consider at the outset whether their travel is necessary to deliver the business outcome required. Mr Simon Burns: The Department is committed to First-class air travel is not allowed within the Department’s handling science and engineering advice in accordance policy. If travel by air is necessary, travellers should with the Government chief scientific adviser’s ‘Guidelines travel economy class, unless a business need to travel on the use of science and engineering advice in policy- business class can be demonstrated. making’. There is a contractual requirement that the supplier Wherever appropriate, we draw the attention of our offers lowest published airfares in accordance with the agencies, non-departmental public bodies and contractors Government Airfare Programme in all cases. In order to guidance on scientific advice to Government. This 299W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 300W includes, for example, the ‘Code of Practice for Scientific what consultancy arrangements are in place in his Advisory Committees’ and the ‘Principles for Scientific Department; and with which firms. [72328] Advice to Government’. Departmental Consultants Mr Simon Burns: Information is held on the Department’s central procurement database on all open Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health contracts with suppliers held by the Department. pursuant to the answer of 8 September 2011, Official Information on the suppliers of consultancy services is Report, column 821W, on departmental manpower, in the following table:

Total approved spend Requirement description Consultancy category (£) Contract start Contract end Supplier name

Integrated Care Pilot Organisation and 4,471,000.00 19 February 2009 31 December 2011 KPMG Programme change management Appointment of legal Legal 275,000.00 3 November 2010 1 June 2012 Norton Rose Vieregge advisers on the sale of NHS Professionals Adviser to Support The Finance 475,000.00 23 March 2010 1 June 2012 PWC Evaluation of NHS Professionals Mids Staffordshire Marketing and comms 75,000.00 16 December 2010 1 February 2012 Central Office of Inquiry Information NHS Transition Organisation and 250,000.00 24 March 2011 31 December 2011 McKinsey & Co Programme change management Technical advice to the Technical 69,000.00 31 March 2011 31 December 2011 Portico CAF programme Estates transition Property and 57,390.00 13 April 2011 31 December 2011 Capita Symonds programme construction Legal advice for care Legal 25,000.00 27 April 2011 31 December 2011 Allen and Overy provision Legal advice for care Legal 25,000.00 5 May 2011 31 December 2011 Baker Tilly provision Fit for Work Service Organisation and 45,000.00 9 May 2011 31 December 2011 Tribal Consulting Ltd change management 1 Contract value.

Departmental Legal Opinion The Department’s efficiency measures govern how professional services are commissioned by officials, including Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for all spend on external legal services. All requirements for Health what the average hourly rate paid was to external legal advice are assessed by officials in the external (a) solicitors and (b) barristers engaged by Department’s Procurement, Investment and Commercial his Department in 2010-11; what guidance his Division in conjunction with colleagues in the Government Department uses in commissioning external legal Legal Service before contracts are let with solicitors or advice; and if he will publish (i) the names of each barristers. external (A) solicitor and (B) barrister engaged by his Information from the Department’s central procurements Department in 2010-11 and (ii) the sums paid in each database shows that expenditure on external legal services case. [72569] by the Department for financial year 2010-11 was as follows: Mr Simon Burns: The Department uses the Government Procurement Service (formerly Buying Solutions) £ framework agreements to access services provided by Beachcroft LLP 31,170.73 external solicitors. The framework rates for the services Berwin Leighton Paisner LLP 12,075.00 provided by the suppliers on these frameworks are on Bevan Br1ttan LLP 13,160.25 average £183 per hour across the firms, including partners Capsticks Solicitors LLP 80,034.20 (the rates for whom are higher and are used less regularly). DLA Piper UK LLP 46,990.75 For barristers, the Department is required to use the Eversheds LLP 2,647,110.56 Attorney-General’s panel system for Junior Counsel. Hempsons Solicitors 83,439.66 The latest rates for these panels are as follows: Irwin Mitchell Solicitors 115,000.00 Junior Counsel to the Crown—C Panel: July 2011 Mills and Reeve LLP 61,580.95 Hourly rate: £60 if under five years’ call; £80 if over five years’ call The Department’s procurement function often achieves Junior Counsel to the Crown—B Panel: August 2011 a 10% to 20% reduction in the published rates for the Hourly rate: £100 Government Procurement Service framework agreements Junior Counsel to the Crown—A Panel: August 2011 through further competition involving the pre-qualified Hourly rate: £120 firms of solicitors. Counsel who take silk are for the first 12 months The Department does not hold records centrally about generally paid at £180 per hour, and then paid at a rate the identities or the number of staff involved in the between £180 and £250 per hour after that. delivery of services from these firms. 301W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 302W

The Department has a Service Level Agreement with General information relating to personal budgets is the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) for the now on Think Local Act Personal website which is at: provision of legal advice (i.e. from legal staff directly http://www.thinklocalactpersonal.org.uk/ employed by DWP). It is for DWP to commission the services of barristers as required using the panel rates as Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health described above. what assessment he has made of the effects of reductions in funding to local authorities on personal Departmental Local Government budgets for disabled people in (a) England, (b) the west midlands and (c) Dudley borough. [72342] Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department has provided to local Paul Burstow: In recognition of the pressures on the authorities on personal budgets. [72341] social care system in a challenging local government settlement, the spending review allocated an additional Paul Burstow: The ‘Vision for Adult Social Care: £2 billion by 2014-15 to support the delivery of social Capable Communities and Active Citizens’ sets the care. This means, with an ambitious programme of context for the future direction of adult social care in efficiency, that there is enough funding available to England. It states that councils should provide personal make it possible to protect people’s access to care. budgets, preferably as a direct payment, for everyone The Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. eligible, by 2013. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), has Since the introduction of direct payments in 1997, not made an assessment in the west midlands or Dudley the Government have issued guidance documents to on the effects of reductions in funding to local authorities support local authorities, the most recent being November on personal budgets for disabled people. 2009 when the regulations were updated, and extended ‘AVision for Adult Social Care: Capable Communities direct payments to people who lacked capacity and and Active Citizens’, sets out that the Government certain mental health users. The guidance on direct expect councils to provide personal budgets to everyone payments assist local councils in making direct payments eligible, preferably as a direct payment by 2013, and and provides guidance on how they can manage and develop the big society, with more local preventative administer them. A copy of the ‘Guidance on Direct activity to support people’s independence, particularly Payments’ has been placed in the Library and is available for disabled people. on the Department’s website at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ Drugs: Misuse PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_104840 In 2007, the previous Administration published ‘Putting Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health People First: A shared vision and commitment to the what assessment his Department has made of the transformation of adult social care’. The local performance volatile substance abuse framework document, Out of framework which covers the delivery of all services by sight, not out of mind; and whether he plans to review local government working alone or in partnership, to the framework. [70459] create an improved approach to local partnership, enabling local authorities and partners to work together to lead Sarah Teather: I have been asked to reply. their area and better meet the public’s needs. A copy of the publication has already been placed in the Library The volatile substance abuse framework was developed and is available on the Department’s website at: under the previous Administration and no recent assessment has been made of it. There are no plans to review the www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_081118 framework. The Department of Health then issued a circular on ‘Transforming Social Care’ LAC (DH) (2008) 1 which General Practitioners: Conferences provided details of the social care reform grant that central Government would make over a three-year period Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for to support the cost of implementing a new system with Health if he will publish a transcript of the remarks he personal budgets at its heart. A copy of the circular has made at the conference for clinical commissioning already been placed in the Library and is available on groups held on 14 September 2011. [72301] the Department’s website at: LAC (DH) (2008)1 Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State for Health, www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire Lettersandcirculars/LocalAuthorityCirculars/DH_081934 (Mr Lansley), spoke to a large audience of emerging Further circulars were issued on Transforming Social clinical commissioning group leaders at a joint NHS Care. These circulars have been placed in the Library Alliance and National Association of Primary Care and are available at the Department’s website at: conference at the Royal Horticultural Halls and Conference Centre on 14 September 2011. LAC (DH) (2009)1 A copy of the Secretary of State’s speech has been www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ placed in the Library and is also available on the Lettersandcirculars/LocalAuthorityCirculars/DH_095719 Department’s website: LAC (DH) (2010)1 http://mediacentre.dh.gov.uk/2011/09/16/speech-16- www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ september-2011-andrew-lansley-napc-nhs-alliance- documents/digitalasset/dh_114790.pdf conference/ 303W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 304W

General Practitioners: North East Health and Social Care Bill

Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what the names are of the clinical what the cost to the public purse was of the drafting by commissioning group board members for the North Parliamentary Counsel of the text of and amendments East; and which of these received remuneration from to the Health and Social Care Bill (a) before its First (a) Virgin Health and (b) Assura. [72716] Reading on 19 January 2011 and (b) from 20 January 2011 to date. [72299] Mr Simon Burns: Emerging clinical commissioning groups currently operate under delegated authority from Mr Simon Burns: The estimated cost to the Department primary care trusts (PCTs), as a committee or sub- of Health of the drafting by Parliamentary Counsel of committee of a PCT. They cannot have a Board until the text and amendments to the Health and Social Care they are formally established. The Department would Bill 2011 is £294,000. Of this, £154,000 relates to the not hold details of board members. period before the Bill’s first reading on 19 January 2011, and £140,000 relates to the period from 20 January 2011 Hay Diet to date. This figure relates the costs charged to the Department Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for by the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. Health what information his Department holds on the Hay Diet; and what his policy is on the use of such Health Professions: Regulation diets in education on healthy living. [72300]

Anne Milton: The Department does not hold any Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State specific evidence on the Hay diet. The Department for Health if he will bring forward legislative proposals advises that the pubic should follow a balanced diet, as to govern the training and regulation of health care shown in the eatwell plate that includes plenty of fruit assistants. [72359] and vegetables and starchy foods and is low in salt, saturated fat and added sugars. Anne Milton: There are no plans to introduce statutory regulation for health care assistants. Health The Government’s view, as set out in the Command Paper “Enabling Excellence”, is that the approach to John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the regulation of health and social care workers must be what joint work is being undertaken between Public proportionate and targeted, and we do not believe that Health Responsibility Deals and Change4Life. [72672] the case has been made for subjecting low-paid workers to an additional tier of regulation. Anne Milton: The Responsibility Deal and Change4Life Employers of health care assistants must take are two separate initiatives which both aim to improve responsibility for the quality of services provided. It is public health. Change4Life is a society-wide movement also essential that appropriate professional responsibility that aims to prevent people from becoming overweight is taken and accountability demonstrated for effectively by encouraging them to eat better and move more. It is supervising any unregulated support staff. the marketing component of the Government’s response to the rise in obesity and as such, it is a useful vehicle for The Health and Social Care Bill currently before public facing Responsibility Deal activities. Parliament will enable a system of assured voluntary registration to be established for health and social care One example of the joint work between the Responsibility workers not subject to statutory regulation, including Deal and Change4Life is the individual Responsibility health care assistants. Deal pledge commitment by the Association of Convenience Stores to work with its members to roll Subject to parliamentary approval, this will provide out Change4Life branding into 1,000 stores to improve employers with an additional mechanism to satisfy fruit and vegetable availability in deprived areas. themselves that unregulated workers are appropriately trained and qualified. John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much funding he has allocated to each Public Health Services: North East Health Responsibility Deal network in financial years (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, (c) 2013-14 and (d) Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for 2014-15. [72673] Health how many full-time equivalent Care Quality Commission inspectors were tasked with undertaking Anne Milton: In 2011-12, the Department has allocated inspections as part or all of their work in the North funding of £100,000 to cover costs relating to the central East Strategic Health Authority region in (a) 2009 and running of the Responsibility Deal. (b) 2010. [72717] It is not possible to provide information on funding in future years because budgets are subject to the Mr Simon Burns: The following information has been Department’s business planning process which takes supplied by the Care Quality Commission (CQC): place each year for the following financial year. 2009-10 Implementation of the Public Health Responsibility On 1 April 2009 there were 41.37 whole-time equivalent Deal pledges will be carried out by partner organisations (WTE) inspectors/assessors involved in carrying out and the costs of doing this will be incurred by these inspections plus two dedicated enforcement inspectors, organisations. who also carried out inspections associated with 305W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 306W enforcement activity in the North East Strategic Health Health: Research Authority (NE SHA). In Quarter 2 of 2009, internal restructuring led to nine redundancies in the NE SHA Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for region and consequently from 1 January 2010 there Health if he will consider the merits of introducing a were 32.37 WTE inspectors plus two enforcement inspectors. statutory duty on the Secretary of State for Health and 2010-11 health bodies to promote health research. [72516] The establishment of compliance inspectors in the NE SHA region was 33 WTE posts However, from Mr Simon Burns: Clause 5 of the Health and Social 17 May 2010, a new field force restructure was implemented Care Bill outlines a duty that, in exercising functions in that aimed to re-direct CQC resources to front line from relation to the health service, the Secretary of State its overall budgeted allocation for staff. This led to an must have regard to the need to promote research on increase to 39 WTE compliance inspectors in the NE matters relevant to the health service, and the use in the region with effect from 3 February 2011. health service of evidence obtained from research. Clause 20 of the Bill outlines further provisions for There is no reference to enforcement inspectors in the NHS Commissioning Board including a duty that 2010-11 as these roles were subsumed into the compliance the Board must, in the exercise of its functions, have inspector roles. regard to the need to promote research on matters At the present time all posts of compliance inspector relevant to the health service, and the use in the health are filled. service of evidence obtained from research. Clause 23 of the Bill outlines general duties for Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for clinical commissioning groups including a duty that Health how many workplace inspections Care Quality each group must, in the exercise of its functions, have Commission inspectors undertook in the North East regard to the need to promote research on matters Strategic Health Authority region in (a) the relevant to the health service, and the use in the health independent sector and (b) NHS workplaces in (i) service of evidence obtained from research. 2009 and (ii) 2010. [72718] Clause 62 of the Bill outlines matters Monitor must have regard to in exercising its functions, including a Mr Simon Burns: The Care Quality Commission duty that it must have regard to the need to promote (CQC) is the independent regulator of health and adult research on matters relevant to the national health social care in England and is responsible for developing service by persons who provide health care services for and consulting on its methodology for assessing whether the purposes of the NHS. providers are meeting the registration requirements under the Health and Social Care Act 2008. Hospitals: Waiting Lists CQC provided the following information about inspections it carried out in 2009-10 and 2010-11. John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Inspections/reviews undertaken by the Care Quality Commission in the North (1) what performance measure of inpatient referral to East Strategic Health Authority region during 2009-10 and 2010-11 treatment time his Department has assessed as the 2009-10 2010-11 most effective indicator of (a) NHS trust or NHS foundation trust performance and (b) NHS Independent healthcare establishments inspected under 31 13 the Care Standards Act 2000 performance nationwide; [72308] Independent healthcare establishments inspected under n/a 4 (2) what performance measure of inpatient referral the Health and Social Care Act 20083 to treatment time his Department has assessed as the 1 2 NHS locations n/k 23 most effective indicator of waiting times. [72309] Adult social care establishments inspected under the 754 328 Care Standards Act 2000 Mr Simon Burns: The Department believes it is important Adult social care establishments inspected under the n/a 128 Health and Social Care Act 20083 to monitor and report information on the time patients 1 Not known. There were two forms of NHS inspections that took place in waited before starting their treatment and on the waiting 2009-10: time of those yet to start treatment. This provides The Healthcare Associated Infection programme inspected all acute trusts and patients with information to inform their choices of the ambulance trust in the North East Region. The number of exact site visits was not recorded. where they want to be treated. It also enables NHS Core standards assessments were also undertaken in the 2009-10 financial year organisations to benchmark their own performance as follow up visits to the 2008-09 Annual Health Check. There were two and ensure that they are delivering a high quality service undertaken in the NE region in this period. The exact number of site visits was not recorded during the core standards assessment programme of work. to their patients. 2 Since 1 April 2010, NHS providers have been registered against the full set of registration requirements under the 2008 Act. As set out in the “NHS Operating Framework for 3 Since 1 October 2010, CQC has registered private and voluntary healthcare 2011/12” published on 15 December 2010, and adult social care providers under the Health and Social Care Act 2008, ’patients’ rights to access services within maximum waiting replacing the existing registration of these providers under the Care Standards Act 2000. times under the National Health Service Constitution will continue’ Notes: and 1. For 2009-10 and 2010-11 the figures indicate the number of inspections completed that have led to an inspection report. Any follow up inspection ’there will be monitoring of compliance with this and the 95th activity to check on action carried out following an initial inspection, or details percentile of waiting time’. of inspections carried out related to enforcement activity may not be included in these data. In line with this, the Department publishes statistics 2. These inspections figures do not include joint inspections of children’s on both the patient wait until the start of treatment and services with Ofsted, inspections of health services for young offenders with on the patient wait for those still waiting. In both cases, Youth Offending Teams, controlled drugs inspections or Ionising Radiation inspections. It also does not include visits carried out under the Mental Health the information published includes the percentage of Act. patients within 18 weeks, the 95th percentile and average 307W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 308W

(median) wait. This information is provided at an England Influenza: Vaccination level broken down by NHS commissioner and provider and by treatment function. Detailed tables by commissioner John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and provider can be found at: what the level of uptake was of the influenza vaccination offered by the NHS amongst (a) people www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/ aged over 65 years, (b) pregnant women, (c) people Performancedataandstatistics/ReferraltoTreatmentstatistics/ index.htm with a serious medical condition, (d) residents in (i) a long-stay residential care home and (ii) other long-stay The United Kingdom Statistics Authority has designated care facilities, (e) main carers of elderly or disabled these statistics as National Statistics. Designation can people and (f) frontline health and social care workers be broadly interpreted to mean that the statistics: in each of the last five years. [72262] meet identified user needs; Anne Milton: The data that are available on the are well explained and readily accessible; uptake of seasonal influenza vaccine by various groups in England in the seasonal influenza vaccination are produced according to sound methods, and programmes in the years 2006-07 to 2010-11 are shown are managed impartially and objectively in the public interest. in the following table.

Percentage Group 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

(a) Age 65 years and older 73.9 73.5 74.1 72.4 72.8 (b) Pregnant women1 ————38.0 (c) Age less than 65 years in a seasonal influenza clinical risk 42.1 45.3 47.1 51.6 50.4 group2 (d) Residents in a long-stay residential care home and other long- n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a stay care facilities3 (e) Carers 36.3 36.2 39.0 42.3 42.7 (f) Frontline health care workers4 14.0 13.4 16.5 26.4 34.7 n/a = not available 1 Pregnant women were offered seasonal influenza vaccine routinely from 2010-11. 2 The seasonal influenza clinical risk groups include chronic respiratory disease, chronic heart disease, chronic kidney disease, chronic liver disease, chronic neurological disease, diabetes and immunosuppression. 3 No data on these groups have been collected. 4 Data for 2006-07 to 2008-09 are for acute trusts only. No data are collected on the uptake of seasonal influenza vaccine by frontline social care workers.

The data above are taken from reports available at: Methadone: Wirral www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publichealth/Immunisation/ Keyvaccineinformation/DH_104070 Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people in each Parliamentary constituency in the Wirral have been using methadone John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for (a) four, (b) five, (c) six, (d) seven, (e) eight, (f) what plans he has for expenditure on national influenza nine and (g) 10 or more consecutive years. [72347] vaccination publicity in 2011-12. [72345] Anne Milton: Information is not collected by parliamentary constituency. I refer the right hon. Member Anne Milton: Final spend on publicity for the seasonal to the written answer I gave him on 13 September 2011, flu programme in 2011-12 is yet to be confirmed. Official Report, column 1122W. The Department will not be running a national NHS: Finance vaccination advertising campaign for the 2011-12 flu season. To date in 2011-12 the Department has spent money on updating information materials for use by John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health health professionals and is intending to run reminder what expenditure has been approved by each strategic messages on pharmacy bags. These messages aim to health authority under paragraph 5.6 of the NHS encourage people in at-risk groups to be vaccinated Operating Framework 2011-12. [72332] against seasonal flu. They will appear on pharmacy bags across 2,225 pharmacies in England and run for Mr Simon Burns: The following 2011-12 non-recurrent four weeks until 20 November. Pharmacy bags will planned expenditure has been approved by each strategic support local campaigns as they target people in at-risk health authority to date, and has also been supported groups in a relevant setting, i.e. when they are collecting by the strategic health authority directors of finance their prescription from their pharmacy. group in accordance with the 2% non-recurrent expenditure requirement for primary care trusts, as laid out in the Following last winter, the Department has reviewed “2011-12 Operating Framework”. the evidence base for mass media campaigns in driving uptake and it is not clear that advertising results in Strategic health authority £ million more people being vaccinated. Vaccine uptake rates in North-east 93.6 2010 were very similar to previous years. Therefore, the North-west 247.9 Department is not planning to run a national advertising Yorkshire and the Humber 169.0 campaign for seasonal flu vaccination this autumn. 309W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 310W

earlier. Departmental officials have already met with a Strategic health authority £ million number of these charities, including a pancreatic cancer East midlands 139.7 charity, with the aim of identifying some of the barriers West midlands 179.5 to early diagnosis and to discuss potential solutions. East of England 126.9 This will inform our future work in this area. London 207.0 On 16 September, we announced plans to roll out a South-east coast 75.3 regional awareness symptom campaign focusing on lung South central 85.5 cancer in October and a national campaign focussing South-west 102.8 on bowel cancer next year. In addition, there will be Total 1,427.2 local trial campaigns for less common cancers, namely A significant part of the 2% non-recurrent expenditure oesophagogastric cancer and the symptom blood in relates to the Quality, Innovation, Productivity and urine (an indicator of kidney and bladder cancers). Prevention initiatives in both trust and primary care Work is also under way to test the feasibility of developing trusts, and service redesign costs not related to the new a more generic cancer campaign that could apply to all landscape. cancer types including pancreatic cancer. NHS: Private Patients Plastic Surgery: Regulation

John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what the level of the cap on private patient income whether he has considered the merits of establishing an is for each NHS foundation trust; [72281] official regulatory body for the cosmetic surgery (2) how much income from private patients each industry. [72521] NHS foundation trust received in each of the last five financial years; and what proportion of their (a) Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the private patient income cap and (b) total turnover such answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for income represented in each case. [72297] Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) and my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) Mr Simon Burns: The information relating to the last on 9 May 2011, Official Report, column 1055W. two years has been placed in the Library. Radiotherapy Due to changes in accounting practice the information relating to the previous three years could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has for future commissioning of Ophthalmic Services: Finance radiotherapy. [72663]

Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: The Government’s proposals are to Health what funding he has allocated to the NHS for pass the commissioning of most services, including eye lens treatments in financial year 2011-12; and if he cancer services to groups of general practitioner practices, will make a statement. [72727] known as clinical commissioning groups. However, some specialised commissioning will be directly commissioned Mr Simon Burns: Primary care trust (PCT) recurrent by the NHS Commissioning Board. Decisions have not revenue allocations are not broken down by service or yet been taken about the appropriate level for policy area. It is currently for PCTs to commission commissioning radiotherapy services. services to meet the healthcare needs of their local populations, taking account of local and national priorities. Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps (a) his Department and (b) the National Pancreatic Cancer: Screening Cancer Action Team is taking to address geographical differences in radiotherapy treatment. [72664] Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to increase early diagnosis of Paul Burstow: The National Cancer Action Team pancreatic cancer. [72264] (NCAT) supports local teams, cancer networks and commissioners by providing a range of advice, tools Paul Burstow: On 12 January 2011, we published and support modelling demand for improving capacity, “Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer”. The quality and productivity of radiotherapy services. strategy sets out an ambition to save at least an additional The Department and NCAT published the first annual 5,000 lives every year by 2014-15 through earlier diagnosis report of the radiotherapy dataset “RTDS Annual Report of cancer and improved access to screening and 2009/2010” in August. It provides an accurate baseline radiotherapy. To support earlier diagnosis of cancer, from which we can measure and assess improvements the Government have committed over £450 million over and changes in radiotherapy services and enables local the next four years, which includes provision for the services to focus on understanding the reasons for variations. funding of awareness activity and measures to support A copy of this report has been placed in the Library. general practitioners to diagnose cancer earlier. The strategy also sets out our commitment to work Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with a number of rarer cancer-focused charities to (1) with reference to the recommendations of the assess what more can be done to encourage appropriate National Radiotherapy Implementation Group, what referrals to secondary care and to diagnose rarer cancers steps (a) his Department and (b) the National Cancer 311W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 312W

Action Team is taking to ensure that stereotactic body This calculation takes into account local population radiotherapy treatment is made available to more NHS characteristics to ensure that each PCT is given a total patients; [72665] allocation in line with the relative needs of its (2) whether local trusts are required to implement population. The total resource allocation for each the recommendations of the National Radiotherapy PCT is calculated using local population characteristics Implementation Group report which have been on an overall basis, rather than being calculated as a accepted by his Department. [72666] sum of individual treatment areas. Therefore, the £150 million funding for increased radiotherapy capacity Paul Burstow: The National Radiotherapy is not listed separately in the exposition book; it is Implementation Group (NRIG) report, “Stereotactic captured as part of the overall resource allocations in Body Radiotherapy (SBRT) Guidelines for Commissioners, the ‘Allocations’ tab. Providers and Clinicians in England 2011”, which has The £150 million is not ring-fenced. Overall baseline been made available on the National Cancer Action allocations are currently set on the basis of a weighted Team website at: capitation formula, used to determine PCTs target shares www.ncat.nhs.uk/our-work/ensuring-better-treatment/ of overall national health service resources to enable radiotherapy them to commission similar levels of health services for made a comprehensive assessment of the role and populations in similar need. The Secretary of State for opportunities for SBRT in cancer treatment. The report Health does not mandate how much individual PCTs brought together all the existing evidence on SBRT and are to spend on particular services within these overall concluded that only a small number of patients would allocations. PCTs have local discretion to decide how to benefit from this treatment. There are at least use their overall allocation to commission services, including 20 radiotherapy centres across the country with the radiotherapy services, to meet the health care needs of capability of delivering this treatment. their local populations, taking account of local and national priorities. Ensuring that all cancer patients receive the appropriate treatment delivered to a high standard is critical to From 2011, available funding for expanding radiotherapy improving cancer outcomes. It is now for the local NHS capacity is as follows: to take account of this guidance when considering whether to commission SBRT for a particular indication. £ million As with all clinical decisions, these should be made 2011-12 13 locally on a case-by-case basis taking into account the 2012-13 22 individual circumstances of each patient. 2013-14 32 2014-15 42 Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 6 September 2011, Official This excludes funding for expanding proton beam Report, column 694W, on the Specialised Service therapy services. Transitional Oversight Group, how many of those appointed to the Specialised Service Transitional Oversight Group have a professional (a) medical and Radiotherapy: South West (b) financial background. [72732]

Mr Simon Burns: Membership of the Specialised Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Service Transitional Oversight Group is drawn from a with reference to the 2010-11 recurrent revenue broad range of stakeholders with an interest in specialised allocation exposition book, how much of the budget of commissioning. Dr Kathy McLean, Chair of the clinical (a) North Somerset Primary Care Trust, (b) Somerset advisory group, has a medical background. Primary Care Trust and (c) the South West Strategic The Transitional Oversight Group is part of a wider Health Authority was spent on radiotherapy services. governance framework. [72733]

Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Simon Burns: The South West Strategic Health pursuant to the answer of 6 September 2011, Official Authority (SHA) does not commission health care and Report, columns 586-7W, on radiotherapy, (1) where in so does not spend any resource on radiotherapy services. the 2011-12 recurrent revenue allocation exposition Information on spending by primary care trusts (PCTs) book the allocation from the £150 million budget for on radiotherapy services is not held centrally. expanding radiotherapy capacity is located; [72734] The 2010-11 recurrent revenue allocations for the (2) whether the £150 million budget is ring-fenced for above bodies are contained in the following table: expenditure on expanding radiotherapy capacity by trusts in their localities; [72735] 2010-11 recurrent (3) how much of the £150 million to be spent on revenue 2010-11 cash expanding radiotherapy capacity will be made available allocation 2010-11 cash increase in the (a) second, (b) third and (c) fourth years. (£000) increase (£000) (percentage) [72736] North Somerset 306,265 18,308 6.4 PCT Paul Burstow: The exposition book 2011-12 sets out Somerset PCT 796,505 44,988 6.0 the fair shares calculation, which underpins each South West 8,035,411 427,194 5.6 SHA primary care trust’s (PCT) total resource allocation. 313W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 314W

Smoking: Children The non-ringfenced Early Intervention Grant will allow local authorities to prioritise funding according Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State to local need and where it will have the greatest impact. for Health what estimate he has made of the cost to the NHS of treating children with passive smoking related Strokes: Medical Treatments illnesses, including the cost of primary care visits and hospital admissions in the last year for which figures Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State are available. [72325] for Health what recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of NHS stroke treatment; and if he will Anne Milton: The Department has not made an make a statement. [72362] assessment of the cost to the NHS associated with the treatment of illnesses in children caused by exposure to Mr Simon Burns: We continue to monitor the second-hand smoke. improvements made in stroke services through a variety The Royal College of Physicians (RCP), in its 2010 of mechanisms. Both the National Sentinel Stroke audit report “Passive Smoking in Children”, provided estimates and the Stroke Improvement National Audit Programme of the approximate number of cases of disease and the (SINAP) provide information on various aspects of consequent morbidity in children caused by exposure to stroke services. In particular, SINAP provides quarterly second-hand smoke in the United Kingdom. This report information about the care provided to stroke patients also estimated the cost to the NHS of treating diseases in their first three days in hospital that can be used to caused by exposure to second-hand smoke among children improve stroke services and so improve outcomes for in the United Kingdom. The RCP’s report is available patients. at: Stroke is an integrated measure of performance in http://bookshop.rcplondon.ac.uk/contents/pub305-e37e88a5- the “Operating Framework for the National Health 4643-4402-9298-6936de103266.pdf Service in England for 2011/12”. Information is collected quarterly on two key markers of good quality stroke Social Services: Reform care. Local health communities can use this data to help judge where improvements need to be made. Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, the Stroke Improvement Programme, Health what the Government’s timetable is for which is part of NHS Improvement, is working producing a White Paper on the reform of social care through their networks using evidence-based following the Dilnot Report. [72287] approaches that are both clinically and cost-effective to Paul Burstow: Following the launch of ‘Caring for go further in improving stroke care across the whole Our Future: Shared ambitions for care and support’ on pathway. 15 September, we will be engaging widely on social care Sunderland Royal Hospital: Waiting Lists reform. This is an opportunity to bring together the recommendations from the Law Commission and the Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Commission on the Funding of Care and Support with how many people were on waiting lists for operations the Government’s Vision for Adult Social Care, and to at Sunderland Royal hospital on 1 September in each discuss what the priorities for reform should be. year since 2005; and what the average waiting time was We will be engaging with stakeholders, carers and in each year. [72395] service users over the autumn to understand these priorities. Following this engagement, the Government are committed Mr Simon Burns: Information on numbers of people to publishing a care and support White Paper and a on waiting lists for operations at individual hospitals is progress report on funding by April 2012. It remains not centrally held. our intention to legislate to this effect at the earliest The closest available data are monthly in-patient opportunity. waiting list data. Information on in-patient (overnight Solvents: Misuse and day case combined) waiting list statistics for City Hospitals Sunderland NHS Foundation Trust Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (FT) on 31 August 2005-09 is shown in the following what recent assessment his Department has made of table: the work of (a) hospital trusts, (b) voluntary Total in-patient waiting Average (median) organisations and (c) local education authorities list waiting time (weeks) concerning the prevention of volatile substance abuse. [70461] 2005 5,889 6.5 2006 8,224 7.0 Sarah Teather: I have been asked to reply. 2007 6,827 5.9 No recent assessments have been made concerning 2008 6,255 5.3 the prevention of volatile substance abuse. Department 2009 5,935 4.2 Notes: for Education research published in February 2011 1. In-patient waiting times are measured from decision to admit by the consultant looked at the costs and benefits of specialist drug and to admission to hospital. alcohol services for young people. Also, as part of the 2. The figures show the median waiting times for patients still waiting for admission at the end of the month. 2010 Drug Strategy, officials looked at international 3. Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than patient evidence on preventing substance misuse, consulting level data, and therefore are only estimates .of the position on average waits. widely on the most effective ways of doing so. Government 4. The MMRPROV return was discontinued from April 2010. Source: Departments are working closely to ensure commitments Department of Health Monthly Waiting Times—Monthly Monitoring Return made in the Drug Strategy are met. Provider (MMRPROV). 315W Written Answers10 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 316W

Waiting list data for April 2010 onwards relate to Total number of Average (median) Referral to Treatment (RTT) waiting times. They incomplete pathways waiting time (weeks) show waiting times for the whole patient pathway, from initial referral through to the point at which 2009 23,575 5.0 either first definitive treatment is provided or a decision 2010 20,799 5.5 not to treat is made. Data on incomplete pathways Notes: 1. RTT waiting times are measured from general practitioner referral to start of relate to those patients still waiting at the end of the first definitive treatment. month. 2. Incomplete RTT pathways show waiting times for patients still waiting to start treatment at the end of the month. Information on incomplete RTT waiting list statistics 3. Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than patient level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on average waits. for City Hospitals Sunderland NHS FT on 31 August 4. Incomplete RTT pathway data are available from August 2007. 2009 and 2010 is shown in the following table: Source: Department of Health Referral to Treatment waiting times—RTT return

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Data held centrally on the Ministry of Justice court Written Answers to proceedings database does not include information about the circumstances behind each case, other than that Questions which may be identified from a statute.

Tuesday 11 October 2011 Driving Offences: Sentencing

Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice WOMEN AND EQUALITIES what discussions has he had with the Attorney-General on reviewing the maximum sentence for dangerous Females: Unemployment driving; and if he will make a statement. [72417] Helen Jones: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what recent meetings she has had with Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Government are creating a ministerial colleagues to discuss the level of new criminal offence of causing serious injury by dangerous unemployment among women. [72661] driving, which will carry a five-year maximum prison sentence. This will be introduced into the Legal Aid, Lynne Featherstone: I have regular discussions with Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. ministerial colleagues about a range of issues relevant The offence is a direct response to the concerns to women. expressed by victims of dangerous driving, and those who represent them. It will allow the most serious consequences of dangerous driving to be dealt with CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT fully by the courts. Olympic Games 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport with reference to Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department’s announcement of 14 September Justice what discussions he has had on the likely effects 2011, whether Barnett consequential funding will arise of the provisions of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and from unspent London 2012 Olympics funding that is to Punishment of Offenders Bill on the human rights of be allocated to Visit England. [72826] people in developing countries harmed by UK Hugh Robertson: The Secretary of State for Culture, companies. [72850] Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), recently Mr Djanogly: Overseas victims of alleged corporate announced that around £3 million from the public harm by UK multinational companies are currently sector funding package for the Olympic and Paralympic able to bring civil claims in the UK where appropriate, Games would be made available to support a domestic and this will continue to be the case following tourism campaign to maximise the economic benefits implementation of our reforms to civil litigation funding from the Torch Relay and the Cultural Olympiad. This and costs. My officials and I have met with relevant does not constitute the reallocation of unspent Olympic stakeholders, including the Coalition for Corporate funds, but rather an investment in a key objective of the Responsibility (CORE), Amnesty International and Oxfam, Olympic programme: to ensure that the benefits from to discuss the impact of the proposed reforms. the Games are felt throughout the UK. We hope to include the devolved nations in this campaign and the Secretary of State is in discussions with ministerial Youth Justice Board colleagues with regard to this possibility. The Olympic and Paralympic Games are a national project and Barnett Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for consequential do not apply. Justice (1) how many representations he has received proposing that the Youth Justice Board be abolished; and from whom; [72415] JUSTICE (2) how many representations he has received proposing that the Youth Justice Board remain as a Automatic Number Plate Recognition separate entity from his Department; and from whom. Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice [72528] how many prosecutions there were as a direct result of a motor vehicle’s number plate triggering an automatic Mr Blunt: In July 2011, the Ministry of Justice (MOJ) number plate recognition camera in (a) 2006, (b) launched a public consultation on the proposals for 2007, (c) 2008, (d) 2009 and (e) 2010. [72608] reform of the majority of MOJ bodies in the Public Bodies Bill to ensure that as many interested parties as Mr Blunt: It is not possible to separately identify possible could contribute views. The consultation closes those specific cases where the defendant was proceeded on 11 October and includes the proposals relating to the against as a direct result of a motor vehicle’s number future of the Youth Justice Board. Information on the plate triggering an automatic number plate recognition result of the consultation will be published in the usual camera. manner. 319W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 320W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE International Climate Fund Implementation Plan Electoral Register Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Sadiq Khan: To ask the hon. Member for South West Energy and Climate Change what progress has been Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the made in the development of the International Climate Electoral Commission, what information the Electoral Fund Implementation Plan. [73007] Commission holds on the amount each local authority is planning to spend on voter registration in 2011-12. Gregory Barker: We are currently working with the [73766] Department for International Development, Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs and HM Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Treasury to finalise the International Climate Fund that it does not currently hold any information on the Implementation Plan. We will publish the document amount each local authority plans to spend on electoral later this month. registration in future financial years. This information Wind Power is collected only once the financial year has ended. Over the last three financial years, local authorities Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy across Great Britain spent £82 million (2009-10), £83 million and Climate Change how many working on-shore wind (2008-09) and £81 million (2007-08) on electoral registration. farms were not operational on (a) 11, (b) 12 and (c) The Commission is currently collecting information 13 September 2011; and for what reasons. [72610] for the 2010-11 financial year and will be publishing a report with the data on their website in December 2011. Charles Hendry: All of the 46 working large onshore A copy will also be placed in the Library of the House wind farms where National Grid monitors output were of Commons. operational on 11 to 13 September 2011. However, output from some of those onshore wind farms was curtailed or stopped for parts of the days in question, as follows: ATTORNEY-GENERAL (a) 11 September 2011: 11 wind farms; Criminal Proceedings: Victim Support (b) 12 September 2011: nine wind farms; and (c) 13 September 2011: 16 wind farms. 3. Mr Dodds: To ask the Attorney-General what This was due to high levels of wind output in Scotland assessment he has made of the level of support which the transmission network in that area did not provided by the Crown Prosecution Service for victims have the capacity to carry. participating in criminal proceedings. [72846] The Attorney-General: There is a comprehensive network of joint police and Crown Prosecution Service Witness HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Care Units, whose role is to provide support to victims Sitting Days and witnesses in the Criminal Justice System. The Victim and Witness Satisfaction Survey in September 2010 Mrs Main: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, found that 85% of victims and witnesses are satisfied Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of with their experience of the Criminal Justice System. Commons Commission, what estimate the Commission has made of the marginal cost to the public purse of the House of Commons sitting for two TREASURY weeks in September. [71539] Departmental Manpower John Thurso: The marginal cost of this year’s additional sitting has been relatively low as most operating costs Jack Dromey: To ask the Chancellor of the are fixed costs and are therefore unaffected by the Exchequer how many officials in his Department number and distribution of sittings, and there was worked on the draft of the national planning policy sufficient notice to take the September sitting into account framework produced by the Department for when planning the works programme. We estimate a Communities and Local Government. [71889] marginal cost of around £200,000 will be incurred as the direct result of the two-week sitting in September. Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the To avoid an accumulating backlog of works, further answer provided by the Secretary of State for Communities September sittings would be likely to have a marginal and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member cost of some £1.5 million. for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles) on 10 October 2011, Official Report, column 16W. Officials from the Treasury have worked closely with DCLG officials on PRIME MINISTER the Draft National Planning Policy Framework. Approximately four HM Treasury officials were Members: Correspondence substantively involved in its development.

Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Prime Minister when he Jack Dromey: To ask the Chancellor of the plans to reply to the letter from the right hon. Member Exchequer how many officials in his Department for Bury South of 29 July 2011. [72828] worked on the draft of the national planning policy framework produced by the practitioners’ advisory The Prime Minister: A reply has been sent. group. [71894] 321W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 322W

Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the Letter from Robert Chote: answer provided by the Secretary of State for Communities As Chair of the Budget Responsibility Committee of the and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member Office for Budget Responsibility I have been asked to reply to for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles) on 10 October your recent questions. 2011, Official Report, column 16W. Officials from the The central forecast in our March Economic and fiscal outlook Treasury have worked closely with DCLG officials on (EFO) was for GDP growth of 1.7 per cent in 2011 and 2.5 per the Draft National Planning Policy Framework. Two cent in 2012. Net debt was projected to rise to 66.1 per cent of HM Treasury officials provided information when asked GDP in 2011-12 and to 69.7 per cent of GDP in 2012-13. by the Advisory Group. As always, there is considerable uncertainty around such point estimates. In light of this, we undertake extensive sensitivity and scenario analysis in order to illustrate the implications for the Parish Councils: PAYE public finances of altering some of the key parameters and judgements in the central forecast. Tony Baldry: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer As set out in the EFO document, for these purposes we use a what advice and guidance his Department gives to ready-reckoner that assumes a 1 per cent change in GDP in a parish councils in respect of their responsibility for given year will result in a 0.5 per cent of GDP change in public sector net borrowing (PSNB) in the first year, and a 0.7 per cent of PAYE for parish clerks. [71958] GDP change in PSNB after two years. This gives a broad-brush guide to the scale of the impact, by Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) assuming that the difference in GDP is structural; the composition provide a range of help to all small employers, including of GDP remains unchanged; and that, given the state of the Parish Councils. HMRC provides a free, downloadable economy, there are no errors in forecasting receipts or expenditure. toolkit that will enable a council to discharge all its Pay In reality, there are additional uncertainties around all of these As You Earn (PAYE) obligations simply and without factors. We illustrate some of the general uncertainty through the incurring further cost. HMRC runs free seminars where use of a fan chart, which shows the probability of different those in councils responsible for PAYE can receive borrowing outcomes based on past forecast errors. face-to-face training in payroll. We will update our forecasts on 29th November. The Charter for Budget Responsibility requires us to produce each of our HMRC recognises the burden on Parishes of having fiscal and economic forecasts on a date announced to Parliament to operate PAYE for the first time. HM Revenue and by the Chancellor. In line with this, it would not be appropriate to Customs (HMRC) have a team of advisers who have publish new estimates in isolation prior to the publication of the been specially briefed to deal with enquiries from Parish November EFO. Councils. These advisers can be contacted on 0845 607 0143. Revenue and Customs: Correspondence HMRC has published special guidance for parishes. This is accessible at: Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Inland Revenue Debt http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employers/parish_council.pdf Enforcement Unit will respond to the letter from the HMRC is also working with the Department for hon. Member for Coventry South of 8 September, Communities and Local Government (DCLG) to ensure reference: 190PR101450. [72779] smaller parishes understand, and can access, the various help and advice available to them. Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs issued a reply to the hon. Member for Coventry South on 13 September Public Sector Net Cash Requirement 2011.

Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the likely FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE effects on gross domestic product growth in quarter three and quarter four of 2011 of the infrastructure Cluster Munitions measures announced by the Deputy Prime Minister on 14 September 2011. [72764] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will amend the Justine Greening: The Office for Budget Responsibility Cluster Munitions (Prohibition) Act 2010 to prohibit (OBR) is responsible for producing independent economic British banks from making investments in companies and fiscal forecasts. The Chancellor has asked the OBR that produce cluster munitions; and if he will make a to publish a new economic and fiscal forecast on 29 statement. [72763] November. Alistair Burt: The Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Chancellor of the Act 2010 comprehensively implements in UK law all of Exchequer (1) if he will estimate public sector net the prohibitions set out in the convention on cluster borrowing in 2012 if gross domestic product growth is munitions. (a) 1.3 per cent. and (b) two per cent; [72765] Issues of funding and finance are not covered in the (2) if he will estimate public sector net debt in 2011 if convention. However, direct and explicit financing of gross domestic product growth is 1.3 per cent. [72766] cluster munitions production is caught by the Act’s prohibition on assisting and encouraging the use of Justine Greening: The information requested falls cluster munitions, and is therefore illegal in the UK. within the responsibility of the Office for Budget The issue of indirect financing, including investments Responsibility (OBR), and I have asked the OBR to in companies that may produce cluster munitions alongside reply. a range of other items and services, is an issue for 323W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 324W individual institutions to consider under their own HEALTH investment charters and social corporate responsibility Cancer: Drugs agendas. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has what assessment he has made of the likely effects of had with his counterparts in (a) Russia, (b) China and establishing strategic health authority clusters on the (c) the US on their signature of the convention on operation of the Cancer Drugs Fund at strategic health cluster munitions; and if he will make a statement. authority level; and if he will make a statement. [72767] [72817] Paul Burstow: It is our intention that the clustering of Alistair Burt: Globalising the convention on cluster strategic health authorities will not adversely affect the munitions is a Government priority. operation of the Cancer Drugs Fund. Work is in progress to scope options for ensuring cancer patients will be The UK became a state party to the convention in unaffected by these changes and that we continue to November 2010, and since then we have worked to fulfil realise the benefits of the Cancer Drugs Fund. its obligations: destruction of the UK’s stockpile is ahead of schedule; £30 million is being provided by the Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Department for International Development over 2010-13 pursuant to the answer of 6 September 2011, Official to support Mine Action; and we are working to increase Report, column 562W, on cancer: drugs, whether the convention’s membership. Most recently my officials strategic health authorities will be required to account have organised initiatives to promote the convention for any funds from their weighted capitation share of within the Commonwealth. the Cancer Drugs Fund that are unspent at the end of The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has consistently each financial year; and if he will make a statement. taken opportunities to lobby counterparts from Russia, [72768] China and the US to prohibit cluster munitions and to join the convention. This has included discussions in Mr Simon Burns: Strategic health authorities (SHAs) London, at relevant international meetings, and direct are accountable for the resources available to them, lobbying through our overseas network. including the Cancer Drugs Fund. We expect regional SHA clinical panels to plan according Libya: UN Resolutions to their allocated shares of the available funding. The Department will monitor SHA spend from the Cancer Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Drugs Fund and transfers between SHAs can be considered and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of UK if a good reason arises. participants in the Paris conference on the future of Libya were women; and if he will make a statement. Departmental Data Protection [72625] Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: The UK was represented at the Paris Health what assessment he has made of the rate of summit conference on the future of Libya by the Prime compliance by NHS personnel with information Minister and the Secretary of State for Foreign and security guidance issued by (a) him and (b) NHS Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Connecting for Health. [72776] for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague). Mr Simon Burns: Each national health service Paraguay: Forests organisation is legally responsible for the security of the information it holds and for ensuring that its staff Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for comply with local security policies and procedures. The Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will ask HM Department has published an information security code ambassador in Paraguay to raise with the Paraguayan of practice and a range of good practice guidelines to authorities allegations of illegal land clearances within support NHS bodies and the NHS chief executive has the ancestral lands of the Ayoreo-Totobiegosode recently written, jointly with the Information Commissioner, Indians in the Chaco. [72612] to all NHS chief executive officers to emphasise the Mr Jeremy Browne: Paraguay’s constitution gives importance of robust information governance. legal recognition to its indigenous people. Paraguay has NHS organisations complete an information governance ratified the indigenous and tribal people’s convention of assessment each year through the online NHS information the International Labour Organisation and voted in governance toolkit which can be found at: favour for the adoption of the UN Declaration on the https://www.igt.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/ Rights of Indigenous Peoples. However, Paraguay’s and which also enables each organisation’s performance institutional framework could more effectively protect results to be viewed. and promote the rights of indigenous people. During the recent Universal Periodic Review of Paraguay’s Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for human rights record at the UN, the UK pushed for Health what guidance on information security (a) he Paraguay to ensure land disputes involving indigenous and (b) NHS Connecting for Health have issued to people are resolved effectively. Paraguay accepted this NHS personnel on the use of (i) mobile devices, (ii) recommendation and committed to establishing a proper laptops, (iii) e-mail accounts and (iv) other IT process to do so. UK relations with Paraguay are conducted equipment owned by NHS personnel and used for through our embassy in Buenos Aires. The UK will official business relating to (A) non-patient-identifiable continue to monitor this situation from there and through information and (B) patient-identifiable information. the EU Delegation in Asuncion. [72777] 325W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 326W

Mr Simon Burns: The Department has published an Risk Management Overview (SRMO) Report. The information security code of practice and a range of Department’s Accounting Officer and Senior Information good practice guidelines to support national health Risk Owner endorse this report. In 2011, the Department service bodies covering all of the topic’s references. This reported in its SRMO that there were no significant guidance is made available through the NHS information risks to our protective security. governance toolkit which can be found at: https://www.igt.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/ Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy: Research

Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what security breaches involving official Health what funding his Department provided for material stored on equipment (a) provided by NHS research into Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy in organisations and (b) owned by NHS employees and 2009-10. [72825] used for NHS-related purposes there were in each of the last five years. [72778] Mr Simon Burns: The Department spent £0.4 million on directly-funded research into Duchenne Muscular Mr Simon Burns: This information is not held centrally. Dystrophy in 2009-10. For the past two years, national health service organisations have been required to publish details of security incidents Exercise: Finance on their websites. John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Departmental Policy what funding was allocated to his Department’s physical activity policy team in each of the last five John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health financial years; and what budget has been allocated for what policy teams there are within his Department. the financial years (a) 2011-12 and (b) 2012-13. [72676] [72626]

Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold Mr Simon Burns: The funding allocation to physical information about its policy teams in a way that specifically activity team in the last five financial years is as follow: distinguishes policy teams from other teams, such as operational or corporate business teams. Financial year Budget allocation (£ million) In March 2011, as part of the latest transparency 2006-07 2.709 exercise, the Department published its organisational 2007-08 1.213 chart or ‘organogram’, including details of every branch 2008-09 4.302 and senior staff in the Department. This is available at: 2009-10 28.156 www.dh.gov.uk/en/Aboutus/HowDHworks/Transparency/ 2010-11 9.325 DH_127549 2011-12 12.35 An update to the organogram is planned shortly as part of the wider transparency agenda. The Department has not set budgets for 2012-13 and will do so as part of the usual business planning processes. Departmental Security Influenza: Vaccination Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the level of John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health compliance by officials in his Department with security against which strains of influenza he proposes that the guidance issued by his Department. [72611] influenza vaccination offered by the NHS will provide protection. [72280] Mr Simon Burns: The Department adheres to the Government’s Security Policy Framework in developing Anne Milton: Each year the World Health Organisation its own security guidance and assessing compliance. (WHO) advises on the influenza strains that are likely Guidance to staff is set out in an Acceptable Use of to circulate and, based on this advice, makes a Information and Communications Technology (ICT) recommendation on the composition of influenza vaccines policy and other security related advice. for the following winter. The WHO has announced that Responsibility for compliance rests with the Department’s the following influenza strains should be included in the managers, who report through quarterly and annual 2011-12 trivalent seasonal influenza vaccine for the information risk assessments. Specific security checks Northern Hemisphere: on how staff use IT services, such as email and the an A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)-like virus, Internet, and on compliance with the Department’s an A/Perth/16/2009 (H3N2)-like virus and clear desk policy are carried out periodically and exceptions a B/Brisbane/60/2008-like virus. reported to managers. The small number of exceptions The seasonal influenza vaccines available to the national found is regarded as indicative of good compliance with health service for the 2011-12 influenza season offer the Department’s security guidance. protection against these strains. Further details are In addition, an agreed programme of internal audits provided in the chief medical officer letter on the seasonal covers a full range of governance and internal control flu immunisation programme 2011-12, which can be issues. accessed at: The assessment and audit activities outlined above www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ provide evidence for an annual report to Cabinet Office documents/digitalasset/dh_128175.pdf on protective security and compliance, the Security A copy of this has been placed in the Library. 327W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 328W

John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health trusts working with SHAs to support the achievement what steps he has taken to encourage uptake of the of this objective, for which locally-owned, robust plans influenza vaccination for the 2011-12 winter among are necessary. This has been the focus of the work (a) at risk groups, (b) carers and (c) health care carried out since the previous answers. A significant professionals. [72298] number of these plans are now signed off and published, with all the remaining plans for NHS trusts to move Anne Milton: The Department published the Seasonal forward to NHS foundation trust status scheduled to be Flu Plan on 25 May to assist local national health agreed and signed by the end of September. service organisations in developing robust and flexible operational plans for the 2011-12 flu season. Smoking: Motor Vehicles The chief medical officer wrote to the NHS on 14 March seeking assurance that primary care trusts have adequate Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health local plans in place for the flu immunisation programme, (1) what progress has been made on changing the have ordered sufficient vaccine and will use robust call behaviour of people smoking in cars carrying children and reminder systems to contact their eligible patients, since March 2011; and if he will make a statement; including carers. The letter stated the need for the NHS [72739] to plan locally to increase uptake in people in the (2) what arrangements his Department has made to clinical risk groups. measure its progress in achieving a reduction in the Copies of the plan and letter have been placed in the number of people smoking in cars with children as set Library. out in the Tobacco Control Plan; and if he will make a Over the summer the chief medical officer, chief statement; [72544] pharmaceutical officer, chief nursing officer and chief (3) what progress he has made on exploring new dental officer have written to the medical royal colleges, roles for marketing communications in encouraging professional bodies, professional regulators and health people to make their family cars smoke free; and if he charities to seek their support in increasing uptake of will make a statement. [72547] the seasonal flu vaccine in health care workers and their eligible patients, particularly those in at-risk groups. Anne Milton: As set out in the Tobacco Control Plan Messages encouraging people in at-risk groups to be for England, the Department will launch a marketing vaccinated against seasonal flu will appear on pharmacy campaign to remind smokers of the harms of secondhand bags across 2,225 pharmacies in England and run for smoke and to encourage smokers to make their homes four weeks until 20 November. and cars smokefree. This campaign is in the early stages The NHS chief executive has asked NHS Employers of development and is expected to launch in March and the Social Partnership Forum to run a staff vaccination 2012. The tobacco marketing strategy, to be published communications campaign to increase awareness and later this year, will set out further details of how we will uptake among frontline health care workers. NHS support efforts by local areas to encourage smokefree Employers are providing a series of free campaign homes and cars ahead of the smokefree campaign. materials to NHS organisations during September, before At the request of the Department, the Smoking, the start of the seasonal flu vaccination programme in Drinking and Drug Use among YoungPeople in England, October. Full details can be found on the NHS Employers included in 2010, for the first time, a question on website: whether the 11 to 15-year-olds surveyed were often near www.nhsemployers.org/flu another person smoking in specific places. The results indicated that children are more likely to be exposed to NHS Foundation Trusts secondhand smoke in their home or other people’s homes, than in vehicles. However, 19% of children John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health reported that they are still often exposed to secondhand pursuant to his answer of 9 May 2011, Official Report, smoke in cars (compared to 26% at home and 32% in column 1050W, on NHS foundation trusts and of other people’s homes). 15 February 2011, Official Report, column 720W, on A copy of this survey has been placed in the Library. NHS: legislative framework, what the reasons are for the time taken to publish the work programme for the Everyone needs to take responsibility for protecting foundation trust pipeline. [72662] children’s health, especially parents. We already know that secondhand smoke exposure in children in England Mr Simon Burns: Further to the previous two answers has reduced over time. For example, between 1996 and in relation to the publication of the Work programme 2007, exposure declined by nearly 70%1. for the national health service foundation trust pipeline, The Tobacco Control Plan states that local areas significant work has since been undertaken to fully should use behavioural insights in order to develop determine the issues faced by individual NHS trusts incentives, such as positive recognition for smokers that and the actions trusts and strategic health authorities take voluntary action to make their homes and family (SHAs) need to undertake to address these. cars smokefree. Rather than extending smokefree legislation, This work has been necessary to ensure that the plans we want people to recognise the risks of secondhand agreed for individual NHS trusts to move forward to smoke and decide voluntarily to make their homes and NHS foundation trust status, will support all these family cars smokefree. We will encourage local areas to organisations in becoming established as clinically create networks of local smokefree ambassadors at a sustainable and financially viable organisations, and community level to encourage people to make their best placed to deliver the best health outcomes for homes and family cars smokefree. patients using services. In a number of NHS trusts, this 1 Bauld, “Impact of smokefree legislation: evidence review” March process has required difficult decisions to be taken by 2011—copy already placed in the Library. 329W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 330W

Tuberculosis: Screening decision within one month. Our vision is an asylum system with swifter case conclusions and no backlogs, Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for delivered at significantly lower cost to the taxpayer. Health (1) when he expects a decision to be made on funding for the (a) Find and Treat Tuberculosis Domestic Violence: Immigrants project and (b) mobile x-ray screening unit from April 2012; [72770] Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what the (a) minimum and (b) maximum length the Home Department what support is available to the is of a contract allocated for services comparable to the victims of domestic violence who have no recourse to Find and Treat Tuberculosis Project and mobile x-ray public funds. [71367] screening unit in NHS London; and if he will consider Damian Green: Support is currently provided to victims implementing similar services in other urban regions of domestic violence who have no recourse to public where there is a rising prevalence of tuberculosis. funds through a UK Border Agency (UKBA) funded [72771] project called Sojourner. This is limited to migrants Anne Milton: The national health service in London who entered the UK as a spouse, civil partner, un-married has funded the Find and Treat service since April 2011. or same-sex partner of a British citizen or person present Future funding for the Find and Treat service, including and settled in the UK. the Mobile X-Ray Unit, is currently being considered The project provides refuge places to vulnerable victims by NHS in London commissioners as part of the planning for a limited period while an application for indefinite round for 2012 and beyond. A model of care for tuberculosis leave to remain as a victim of domestic violence is (TB) in the capital will be considered in early November considered by UKBA officials. 2011. This will include the possible future role of Find The Sojourner project is not a long term solution and Treat. which is why, after April 2012, migrants on spousal The Department does not collect information on the visas in need of refuge places will be given a short minimum and maximum lengths of contracts for services period of leave so they will be able to access welfare comparable to Find and Treat TB project. It is up to the benefits while their claim for indefinite leave to remain local authorities and primary care trusts to make in the UK is considered. This is a major step to ensuring commissioning decisions regarding implementing services that this vulnerable group remains protected and safe similar to Find and Treat. from abuse. Members: Correspondence

HOME DEPARTMENT Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Asylum the Home Department when the Minister for Immigration plans to reply to the letter from the right Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton of 5 August for the Home Department what the cost to the public 2011 with regard to Dr Peter Capon. [72621] purse was of supporting asylum seekers who were not able to work in each of the last five years; and if she Damian Green: A reply to the right hon. Gentleman’s will make a statement. [70722] letter was sent on 6 October 2011. Damian Green: The UK Border Agency provides Missing Persons Bureau support to everyone who claims asylum and who would otherwise be destitute, until they have exhausted their Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for the appeal rights. Support is also provided to failed asylum Home Department when she plans to make an seekers who would otherwise be destitute and who face announcement on the future of the Missing Persons a legitimate barrier to return. Asylum seekers and failed Bureau. [72782] asylum seekers are not permitted to work while the case is being considered other than in exceptional circumstances James Brokenshire: The Missing Persons Bureau currently where there has been a delay of more than 12 months in sits within the National Policing Improvement Agency deciding their case. (NPIA). Ministers will update the House on plans for the future of NPIA functions in the autumn. The cost of asylum support in the last five years was as follows: Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to publish the next £ million missing persons data and analysis report. [72783] 2006-07 524 James Brokenshire: The National Policing Improvement 2007-08 485 Agency’s Missing Persons Bureau intends to publish a 2008-09 511 second report focussing on the financial year 2010-11 in 2009-10 524 the new year 2012. 2010-11 401 Police Deaths on Duty Asylum support costs have been reduced by over £100 million in the last year, a 20% reduction, and we Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the expect to bring costs down again this year. Home Department how many police officers in In the last year the proportion of asylum seekers England and Wales were (a) killed and (b) seriously removed within one year of their application have nearly injured while on duty in each of the last 30 years. doubled and around 60% of applicants now receive a [72028] 331W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 332W

Nick Herbert: Available information relates to assaults James Brokenshire: The sale and distribution of on police officers resulting in fatal and serious injury, counterfeit items is a threat that the Government take from 1999-2000 to 2010-11 and is given in tables 1 and 2 seriously. The distribution of counterfeit tobacco carries (the tables indicate where forces did not make a statistical serious health risks and the Government are working to return for the assaults—two tables are given to better tackle this threat, with the police and other enforcement accommodate the footnotes). agencies. Table 1: Assaults1 on police officers resulting in fatal and serious injury, England The North of England Tackling Illicit Tobacco for and Wales, 1999-2000 to 2004-052, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Better Health programme is a multi-agency partnership Fatal Serious covering three Department of Health regions (North 1999-2000 1 299 West, North East, and Yorkshire and Humber) where 2000-01 1 349 smoking rates are some of the highest in the 2001-02 1 400 country, and there are a number of major hot spots 2002-03 4 263 for illicit tobacco. The programme was launched in 2003-04 0 253 2009 following a period of extensive research. 2004-05 0 262 Programme funding of £1 million over three years has 1 Provisional data collated on behalf of and published by HMIC. Serious been provided by the Department of Health and subsequent assaults are those for which the charge would be under sections 18 and 20 of the funding from Department of Health and primary care Offences Against the Person Act 1861. Other assaults include those with minor trusts from tobacco control budgets has allowed the or no injury. Recording practices may vary over time and between forces. 2 Financial year runs 1 April to 31 March inclusive. Data include the sum of programme to extend into other activities such as evaluation injuries for the 43 police forces in England and Wales. support. 3 HMIC did not publish a force breakdown of assaults prior to 1999-2000. 2004-05 was the period for which HMIC published assaults data for the last The programme brings together regional public health, time. trading standards, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), 4 Northamptonshire was not able to separate serious assaults from 1999-2000 to local authorities and the police—all committed to reducing 2002-03. 5 Lancashire, Greater Manchester and West Midlands were not able to provide the supply and demand for illicit tobacco. The programme data in 2003-04. plan sets out the following eight key objectives: 6 Lancashire and West Midlands were not able to provide these data in 2004-05. 7 Metropolitan police was unable to provide these data in 2000-01 and 2001-02 Developing partnerships to 2003-04. Engaging health and community workers 8 South Wales was not able to provide these data in 1999-2000. Generating and sharing intelligence Table 2: Assaults1 on police officers resulting in fatal and serious injury, England Identifying informal markets and preventative action and Wales, 2005-06 to 2010-112, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Fatal Serious Delivering enforcement Marketing and communication 2005-06 3 423 Working with business 2006-07 0 506 2007-08 1 502 Assessing progress 2008-09 1 439 The North of England programme has enabled the 2009-10 0 381 HMRC to influence outside enforcement activity and 2010-11 0 333 improved joint working with Trading Standards in tackling 1 Provisional data collated on behalf of HMIC. Serious assaults are those for illicit tobacco at the local level. The HMRC/Trading which the charge would be under sections 18 and 20 of the Offences Against the Standards Join Working Protocol has been updated to Person Act 1861. Recording practices may vary over time and between forces. 2 Financial year runs 1 April to 31 March inclusive. Data include the sum of clarify responsibilities, develop data sharing practices injuries for the 43 police forces in England and Wales. and improve flows of intelligence for joint planning 3 These data were released as supplementary datasets to the HMIC Annual purposes to target illicit tobacco. Report by Home Office Statistics from 2005-06 to 2009-10 except for 2010-11. 4 Cambridgeshire were not able to provide consistent figures from 2005-06 and In addition the Intellectual Property Office Intelligence 2006-07. Their reporting 2007-08 data are therefore not comparable with previous years data. Hub manages the national Intellectual Property Crime 5 Cheshire from 2005-06 to 2008-09 and Warwickshire from 2005-06 to 2007-08 Intelligence Database. The hub receives intellectual property were not able to provide data from the HR recording system, data are therefore crime intelligence from a number of sources, including taken from the crime system and are not comparable with that from other forces. industry anti-piracy and brand protection units, trading 6 Cleveland and Devon and Cornwall during 2005-06. Cumbria during 2006-07 standards, police forces, HMRC, the UK Border Agency and 2007-08, Derbyshire, North Yorkshire and South Wales from 2005-06 to (UKBA) and Medicines and Healthcare products 2007-08 were not able to provide these data. 7 Dyfed-Powys were not able to provide consistent figures for the reporting Regulatory Agency (MHRA). This intelligence is fed period, and data for each year are therefore not comparable. into the Intellectual Property intelligence database, to 8 Cumbria and North Yorkshire were not able to provide data for 2008-09. help co-ordinate the response to the national threat of 9 Cheshire, Gloucestershire, Greater Manchester, Hampshire and North Yorkshire were not able to provide data for 2009-10. counterfeit products. 10 Cheshire and Greater Manchester were not able to provide data for 2010-11. Third Sector Smuggling: Tobacco Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the name is of each charity Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for the and voluntary organisation visited by Ministers in her Home Department (1) what steps her Department is Department since 12 May 2010. [67673] taking to stop the sale of counterfeit cigarettes from tab houses; [69482] Damian Green [holding answer 19 July 2011]: Ministers (2) what steps her Department has taken to prevent from the Home Department have visited the following the sale of counterfeit cigarettes from tab houses. charities and voluntary organisations as part of their [69522] ministerial roles: 333W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 334W

Secretary of State (Mrs May) Mr Robathan: Bullying and harassment are not tolerated Stonewall: June 2010 in the armed forces. All service and civilian personnel, Still Human Here: July 2010 and March 2011 regardless of rank or grade, have a right to be treated Relate: January 2011 with dignity. All MOD employees have a responsibility Stalking Charities: January 2011 to do all they can to ensure that the working environment Stephen Lawrence Centre: February 2011 is free from all forms of bullying and harassment and that the dignity of others is respected. This is clearly Fawcett Society: March 2011 laid down, along with the procedures to be followed if a Rape Crisis Centre: March 2011 complaint is made, in the Joint Service Publication 763. Equality and Diversity Forum: March 2011 The policy has not changed since April 2004. Its Age UK: March 2011 implementation has, however, been reinforced following NR5 Futures Project based in Heartsease: March 2011 criticism from the then Equal Opportunities Commission Damian Green and recommendations made by Nicholas Blake QC in Refugee Council: June 2010 his review of the deaths at Princess Royal Barracks, Refugee Action: June 2010 Deepcut. We have, for example, reviewed equality and Diana Princess of Wales Memorial Fund: July 2010 diversity training to ensure it is delivered to all levels of personnel, and ensured that sanctions are brought against Barnado’s: February 2011 those found culpable of bullying or harassment. In James Brokenshire response to the Deepcut review, we established the post Action for Children: June 2010 of Service Complaints Commissioner in the Armed Drugscope: July 2010 Forces Act 2006. Co-ordinated Action Against Domestic Abuse: July 2010 The Commissioner provides an avenue for individuals Children’s Charities Coalition on Internet Safety: July 2010 to raise an allegation of bullying, harassment or improper NSPCC: July 2010 behaviour, which the Commissioner can decide to refer Prince’s Trust: July 2010 to the chain of command for investigation, and about Childnet International: January 2011 which the Commissioner must be kept updated. In addition, independent scrutiny of our training environment NSPCC: March 2011 is now provided through inspections carried out by Twelves Company: March 2011 Ofsted. Laureus ‘Sport for Good’ event: March 2011 Chance UK: March 2011 Defence Suzy Lamplugh Trust: March 2011 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Horizon Kent: May 2011 Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of his Barnado’s: April 2011 Department’s brief for the Assistant Director of Horizon Kent: May 2011 Information dated October 1998 D/DAO/14/3/5. Baroness Browning [72725] Neighbourhood Watch launch event: June 2011 Dr Fox: I will write to the hon. Member. Turning Point: July 2011 King George’s Hostel and Homeless Link: July 2011 Departmental Public Expenditure Baroness Neville-Jones Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Human Rights Watch: July 2010 Defence how much is projected to be saved in (a) Lynne Featherstone Resource DEL, (b) Capital DEL, (c) annually- Women’s Aid: June 2010 managed expenditure and (d) in total from training Anawim—women’s community project: November 2010 efficiencies in each financial year from 2010-11 to Selby Trust for social enterprise day: November 2010 2014-15. [71279] Solace—women’s refuge: December 2010 Dr Fox: It is too early to provide an estimate of the Actionaid: March 2011 projected savings accruing from training efficiencies as Liberty: March 2011 we continue to explore how best to prepare our armed Lesbian and Gay Foundation: March 2011 forces to undertake the tasks that will be expected of MASH—Manchester Action on Street Health: July 2011 them. We plan to introduce more modern and cost-effective RSPCA: July 2011 methods of training and to deliver further efficiencies Womankind: July 2011 through estate rationalisation and improvements in the delivery of tri-service technical training. The Ministry of Defence will, however, provide the fullest possible information as progress is made. DEFENCE Libya: Arms Trade Deepcut Barracks Mr Khalid Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for for Defence what weapons (a) British companies and Defence what his policy is on bullying in the armed (b) the Government have sold to the National forces; and in what ways has that policy changed since Transitional Council (NTC) of Libya; what (i) civil and the statement of the then Secretary of State for (ii) military training the Government has provided to Defence of 27 April 2004, Official Report, column the NTC; and what the cost to the public purse was in 201WH, on Deepcut Barracks. [72605] each case. [70696] 335W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 336W

Dr Fox: The Government have not sold weapons to discharge from care was recorded again. This has resulted the National Transitional Council (NTC) of Libya nor in an increase in recorded numbers from July 2009 has it issued export licences to British companies for onwards. such sales. Therefore, there was no cost to the public The following table shows the numbers of UK service purse. personnel medically discharged from service with a However, the Secretary of State for Foreign and principal condition of PTSD between 1 April 2007 and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member 31 March 2010 by financial years. for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), informed the House on 16 May 2011, Official Report, column 61 and 30 June All 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2011, Official Report, column 66WS, that the Government Naval Service (including 157—— intended to provide additional practical and material Royal Navy and support to the NTC as the legitimate representative of Marines) the Libyan people. He confirmed the details of the Army 79 21 32 26 equipment granted for use by the NTC and the civilian RAF 5 — — — police force. Provision of this equipment is fully in line Note: To protect individual identities, and in keeping with the Office for National with UNSCRs 1970 and 1973 including the arms embargo. Statistics Guidelines, all numbers fewer than five have been suppressed and The Government have not provided civil or military presented as ‘—’. Where there is only one number in a row or column that is fewer than five, the next smallest number (or numbers where there are tied training to the NTC and, therefore, there was no cost to values) has also been suppressed so that numbers cannot simply be derived the public purse. from totals. The UK has sent a small military mentoring team to The processes for administering a medical discharge Libya to enable the NTC to better protect civilians and differ between the three services and as a consequence civilian areas. This team has provided the NTC with the numbers have been presented by service rather than mentoring on information handling, internal organisation tri-service totals. and processes, logistics, communications and planning. A police adviser has also worked with the NTC but has not provided training. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Departmental Air Travel

Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many service personnel serving in Communities and Local Government what (a) Germany have been diagnosed with post-traumatic contractual obligations and (b) other processes his stress disorder; and how many of these are being Department uses in respect of travel management treated (a) in the UK and (b) in Germany; [72772] companies to ensure the best value is achieved when purchasing airline tickets. [72697] (2) how many service personnel were diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in each of the Robert Neill: The Department’s travel management last three years; and how many service personnel have company, Redfern Travel Ltd, provide an online booking been discharged as a result of a diagnosis of PTSD in facility which allows staff to compare prices and modes/class each of the last three years. [72773] of travel and source the best value when booking air or rail travel. Additionally, Redfern supply detailed Mr Robathan: Defence Analysis Statistics and Advice management information that allows travel to be (DASA) collate the results of initial psychiatric assessments comprehensively monitored across the Department. The of all patients who are referred to one of the Ministry of terms of the contract also require Redfern Travel Ltd Defence (MOD)’s Departments of Community Mental to: Health (DCMH). This information is necessarily Provide and deliver the lowest price travel tickets possible provisional, as final diagnoses may be refined once within the UK and overseas and within the travellers requirement patients have commenced their course of clinical treatment. and the departmental travel policies. In the period 1 January 2007 to 31 March 2011, the Constantly source new routes and lower fares on existing earliest and latest dates for which verified information is routes. available, 66 service personnel serving in Germany had Proactively advise the authority and the customers in methods been given an initial assessment of post-traumatic stress on how to reduce air travel expenditure. disorder (PTSD). Additionally, there are no minimum commitments as As at 1 September 2011, out of those 66 personnel, this is a non-exclusive contract. six were currently receiving treatment for PTSD at one Requirements for air travel within the Department of the MOD’s DCMHs in the UK, and 22 at one of are minimal but there is clear guidance that first-class those in Germany. The other 38 have completed their travel is not permitted. The travel management company course of treatment and have been discharged from must notify the Department’s central procurement team care. for authorisation prior to booking first-class tickets. The numbers given an initial medical assessment of Furthermore, any expenditure on air travel outside of PTSD in each of the last three years were 156 in 2008, Europe for greater than £350 is also referred to the 172 in 2009 and 249 in 2010. It should be noted that central procurement team for authorisation. during this period, the MOD refined its methodology Staff source low cost tickets by searching available for recording mental health statistics. Up until 30 June deals and rates. This is facilitated by Redfern having 2009, only new referrals at DCMHs were recorded; access to the Government Air Programme and ensuring from 1 July 2009, anyone re-referred following the best available Government rates are available. 337W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 338W

Departmental Legal Opinion TRANSPORT

Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Bus Services: Finance Communities and Local Government what the average hourly rate paid was to external (a) solicitors and (b) Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for barristers engaged by his Department in 2010-11; what Transport (1) whether his Department has undertaken guidance his Department uses in commissioning an impact assessment on the provision of bus services external legal advice; and if he will publish (i) the in (a) shire and (b) non-shire authorities following names of each external (A) solicitor and (B) barrister changes to the Formula Grant in April 2011; [72180] engaged by his Department in 2010-11 and (ii) the (2) what assessment he has made of the impact of sums paid in each case. [72562] local authority decisions on funding for subsidised bus services on the provision of community transport. Robert Neill: The range of hourly rates paid were (a) [72184] £110 to £288 per hour to solicitors and (b) £45 to £220 per hour to barristers. Norman Baker: I am aware that, as a result of local Departmental guidance requires that external solicitors decisions, in some areas of the country bus services are and barristers are engaged after consultation with the being reduced. The latest statistics on bus services can legal director, and only for highly sensitive cases, cases be found at the Department for Transport website and which may lead to litigation or where the Department’s are updated periodically: expertise is limited. The barristers are engaged from a http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/series/buses/ Panel of Counsel approved by the Attorney-General, Changes to bus and community transport services and solicitors from the Office of Government Commerce are a matter for bus operators and local transport approved suppliers; with few exceptions. authorities; the Government do not and cannot make Details of all expenditure over £500 are published, an assessment of every individual change but are working each month, on the Departments website. Legal advice with local transport authorities to get an overall picture. is coded under ‘legal consultancy’ and ‘legal fees’. The Government understand that community transport, http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/ which provides essential services for those unable to transparencyingovernment/spenddata/ access conventional public transport, has a role to play in filling gaps left by the withdrawal of both commercial Local Development Frameworks and supported bus services. This is why the Government announced a one-off funding package of £10.2 million Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for for rural local authorities to kick-start and support Communities and Local Government what assessment community transport. his Department has made of the relative legal weight of local development frameworks and the national Departmental Job Satisfaction planning policy framework. [71878] Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Greg Clark: The proposed abolition of regional strategies Transport with what frequency his Department through the Localism Bill will increase the salience and produces a staff survey; and if he will place in the importance of local plans; otherwise, the Localism Bill Library a copy of the report of the most recent such does not alter the legal status of councils’ development survey. [72808] plans. The proposed changes to national planning guidance Norman Baker: The Department participates in the will strengthen the importance of local plans at the annual Civil Service People Survey. This is a single staff heart of decision-making. survey (managed by the Cabinet Office) measuring employee engagement across the entire civil service. Social Rented Housing: Chippenham The Department’s staff survey results for 2010 are Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for available on its external website. Communities and Local Government how many Departmental Procurement households in social housing are living in (a) underoccupied properties and (b) overcrowded Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for conditions in (i) Chippenham constituency and (ii) Transport whether he has made an assessment for England. [72827] comparative purposes of the way public procurement Grant Shapps: It is estimated that 423,000 households tenders for transport-related projects are undertaken in were under-occupying and 273,000 were living in other EU member states. [72400] overcrowded conditions in the social sector in England Norman Baker [holding answer 10 October 2011]: An in 2009-10. This estimate is a three-year average based assessment of public procurement tendering is being on data from the Survey of English Housing (2007-08) undertaken as part of the growth review. It is intended and the English Housing Survey (2008-09 and 2009-10). that the outcome of this assessment will be announced Under-occupying households are those with at least at the end of November. two bedrooms more than they need according to the Bedroom Standard and overcrowded households are Railways those with one or more bedrooms fewer than they require. Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for It is not possible to provide estimates for individual Transport what support he provides to local authorities constituencies as sample sizes are too small. seeking to introduce light railway systems. [72607] 339W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 340W

Norman Baker: The Government recognise the many Mike Penning: The proposals to modernise the clear benefits of light rail and since May 2010 have Coastguard would broaden its formal role and supported a number of proposed extensions to existing responsibilities beyond civil maritime search and rescue, light rail systems following approval of business cases. to encompass Vessel Traffic Monitoring and Counter This includes £120 million for the Manchester Metrolink Pollution operations. These additional functions would extensions to Ashton and to East Didsbury currently enable coastguards to develop improved awareness of under construction. The Government have also announced the maritime domain and to identify and manage emerging their intention to support an extension to Midland risks to safety more proactively than at present. Metro to Birmingham New Street Station and extensions Compared to existing roles in the Maritime Rescue to the Nottingham tram system subject to final approval. Co-ordination Centres, individual coastguards employed I also announced in March 2011 that the Department in the new network of Maritime Rescue Sub-Centres for Transport would be undertaking a tram-train pilot would acquire significantly broader and deeper skill in South Yorkshire, which is now being progressed. sets in order to cope with increased workloads and The Government do not provide direct support to greater levels of responsibility, and to operate with local authorities for development work on light rail greater autonomy and accountability within the national systems. It would be for the relevant authority to undertake search and rescue co-ordination network. any feasibility studies at its own cost before submission Further detail about the role of the coastguards of a business case to the relevant funding authority. The under the Government’s revised proposals can be found Department has recently published a report on light rail on the Maritime and Coastguard Agency’s website at: with the aim of helping to make this mode more cost http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/concept_of_operations_doc effective in the future. The report is available on the Department’s website. Thameslink Railway Line

Railways: Contracts Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether his Department has assessed the Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for risk of any potential conflict of interest in respect of Transport whether his Department has assessed the consultants providing advice on Thameslink. [72786] effects of exchange rate movements on the costs of the Mrs Villiers: It is the Department’s policy to require contract for the (a) Intercity Express Programme and all consultants and advisers to declare any possible (b) Thameslink Rolling Stock since the announcement conflicts of interest when offering their services on any of the preferred bidder. [72784] particular contract or assignment. This requirement is set out in the contract terms issued to consultants and Mrs Villiers: The Department performs sensitivity advisors when invited to bid for a contract. analysis of exchange rate movements, and their Furthermore, bidders are advised that it is their ongoing repercussions on contract awards, on an ongoing basis. responsibility to advise the Department of any change Moreover, the Department takes advice on a number of in circumstances which potentially could be viewed as a hedging strategies that could be implemented at the conflict of interest during the period of the contract. point of financial close to mitigate the risk of said movements.

Railways: Olympic Games 2012 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Second Chamber Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he has any proposals to change the 9. Jessica Morden: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister availability of cheaper or advanced train fares around what steps he plans to take to achieve his objective of the period of the London 2012 Olympics. [71938] creating a second chamber reflective of the share of the vote secured by political parties at the last general Mrs Villiers [holding answer 15 September 2011]: election. [72863] The setting of quota levels for advance fares is a commercial matter for train operators. There are therefore no DFT Mr Harper: For as long as the composition of the proposals to change the availability of cheaper or advanced Other Place cannot be changed by election, any government purchase train fares during the Olympics. has the right to ensure that its composition better However, train companies are offering special rail reflects the views of the electorate—as was proposed in fares exclusive to Olympic and Paralympic event ticket the Coalition programme for government. holders. ‘2012 Games Train Tickets’ are now available to buy. West Lothian Question 10. Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Deputy Prime Rescue Services Minister when he plans to establish the commission to consider the West Lothian question. [72864] Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how the operational role of coastguards Mr Harper: I refer the hon. Member to the written based in the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres ministerial statement that I made on 8 September 2011, would differ to that envisaged for coastguards Official Report, column 27WS. The Government will employed in the Maritime Rescue Sub-Centres under make a more detailed follow-up announcement soon, the Government’s revised proposals for the Coastguard including details on the terms of reference and time-scale Service. [69444] of the Commission. 341W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 342W

Party Funding Electoral Register

11. Simon Hughes: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what what recent progress he has made on the reform of steps he is taking to increase the level of electoral party funding; and if he will make a statement. [72865] registration of service personnel in (a) Northern Ireland and (b) the rest of the UK. [72121] 13. Mike Crockart: To ask the Deputy Prime Mr Harper: The Ministry of Defence recently published Minister what recent progress he has made on the a report on Service Voter registration levels in 2010 and reform of party funding; and if he will make a a copy has been placed in the Library of the House. statement. [72867] That report shows a positive trend and indicates that 75% of service personnel are registered to vote, up from Mr Harper: The Government are committed to work 69% in 2009 and 60% in 2005. to reform party funding. The Committee on Standards in Public Life is conducting a review into this area and We recognise that there is still work to be done and the Government will consider its recommendations, remain committed to making it as easy as possible for alongside other relevant evidence, before taking this service personnel to register to vote, and to cast their forward. vote. In Northern Ireland, Area Electoral Officers maintain regular contact with family liaison officers at the army Parliamentary Constituencies barracks, encouraging service personnel and their families to register. More generally, we are exploring a number of options 12. John Stevenson: To ask the Deputy Prime for a one-time registration scheme for service personnel Minister what recent representations he has received on with the Ministry of Defence to consider how this proposals for reducing the number of parliamentary might best work in practice. In addition, we have published constituencies. [72866] draft legislative provisions to extend the electoral timetable for UK parliamentary elections from 17 to 25 working Mr Harper: The Government have received days, and will make a corresponding change for the representations from parliamentarians, interest groups by-elections timetable, to take effect in time for the next and members of the public on this issue. However, it is scheduled general election in 2015. These provisions the responsibility of the independent Boundary will have particular benefits for service personnel stationed Commissions to make proposals, and I would urge outside the UK as it will allow more time for the people to contribute to their consultations. dispatch and return of postal votes to overseas locations. Trust in Politics Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what use has been made of free prize draws to improve 14. Helen Jones: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister electoral registration in (a) Northern Ireland and (b) what recent discussions he has had on restoring trust in the rest of the UK. [72123] politics. [72868] Mr Harper: Quarterly free prize draws for all those The Deputy Prime Minister: I have had a number of added to the electoral register or those who notified the discussions with Cabinet colleagues and others about Electoral Office for Northern Ireland of a change in the Government’s programme of constitutional and their details ran for three years in Northern Ireland—ending political reform which are designed to restore trust in in March 2011. Information for the rest of the UK is politics. not held. However, the Government are considering a number of ways to increase voter registration rates in Civil Disorder the context of the move from household to Individual Electoral Registration. This includes conducting research with groups who have traditionally been under-registered Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he to explore ways in which they may be encouraged to will conduct research into the numbers of those register. involved in the public disorder of August 2011 who were registered to vote. [72119] Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what co-operation there has been between his Office, Mr Harper: There are no plans to carry out such electoral registration officers and the devolved research. There are several pieces of research which Administrations on foreign citizens who became have been commissioned about electoral registration to British citizens for purposes of electoral registration. inform the move to Individual Electoral Registration [72124] (IER). We are funding the Electoral Commission this year to carry out a study into the completeness and Mr Harper: It is a matter solely for individual Electoral accuracy of the electoral register which should be published Registration Officers to determine whether an individual before the end of the year. We have carried out a meets the nationality and other eligibility criteria for literature review to consider all the currently available electoral registration. More generally, within the Cabinet evidence on registration, including which groups are Office the Electoral Registration Transformation most likely to be missing from the register such as Programme (ERTP) is working with a wide range of young people or Black and Minority Ethnic groups. stakeholders including the Electoral Commission, Electoral Further qualitative research will be carried out into Registration Officers and the Association of Electoral these groups which will inform decisions on the transition Administrators to improve electoral registration under to IER. the move to Individual Electoral Registration. 343W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 344W

Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister In addition the ERTP is discussing with organisations whether he plans to extend the Pointer system from that represent groups who have been traditionally under- Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK for electoral registered or for whom IER may pose different challenges, registration purposes; and if he will make a statement. such as those at 16 and 17 years old (attainers) and [72125] people with specific needs. A number of initiatives run by the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, Mr Harper: The Government have no plans to extend including contacting nursing homes to facilitate ‘Pointer’ across the UK. ‘Pointer’ is an address database registration of new residents, visits to post-primary providing a common standard address for every property schools, and information sharing with further education in Northern Ireland. The ‘National’ and ‘one Scotland’ colleges, the Department for Work and Pensions and Address Gazetteers already collectively provide standard other agencies have successfully increased registration addresses for every property in England, Wales and in Northern Ireland. Scotland and since 1 April 2008, all Electoral Registration Officers in England, Wales and Scotland have been Electoral Register: Standards required to maintain information held in their registers according to specified data standards. Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what proportion of (a) post-primary schools and (b) Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what further education colleges were visited by electoral co-operation there has been between his Office, registration officers for the purpose of improving electoral registration officers and the Registrar General electoral registration in (i) Northern Ireland and (ii) the on adjustments to the electoral register to reflect (a) rest of the UK in 2010-11. [72122] recent marriages and (b) recently deceased electors in (i) Northern Ireland and (ii) the rest of the UK. Mr Harper: I am informed by the Chief Electoral [72126] Officer for Northern Ireland that in Northern Ireland 100% of post primary schools with more than 10 pupils Mr Harper: Electoral Registration Officers are under in the 16 to 17 age range are visited by electoral a duty, under section 9 of the Representation of the administrators. All pupils in further education colleges People Act 1983, to maintain electoral registers. Pursuant who are not already registered are contacted by letter to regulation 35 of the Representation of the People enclosing a registration form. The Government do not Act Regulations 2001, in fulfilling their registration hold the requested information for the rest of the UK. duties, Electoral Registration Officers are authorised to inspect council records and any registrar of births and deaths. WORK AND PENSIONS In Northern Ireland, weekly lists of marriages, civil partnerships and deaths are collected from the Registrar Atos Healthcare: Doctors General and circulated to area offices. Deceased persons are removed from the register and the Electoral Office Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for for Northern Ireland write to those who have married Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of or registered civil partnerships, enclosing registration 7 September 2011, Official Report, column 671W, on forms, to facilitate registration and amendments to the Atos Healthcare: doctors, if he will meet Atos register. Healthcare to discuss their employees’ registration with the General Medical Council. [72346] I have had no contact with the Registrar General on this issue. My officials are in regular contact with electoral Chris Grayling: I refer the hon. Member to the reply administrators on matters relating to registration. given to the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) on 7 September 2011, Official Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what Report, columns 671-72W. co-operation there has been between his Office, electoral registration officers and (a) the owners of Atos Healthcare: Manpower nursing homes, (b) local authority housing departments, (c) post-primary schools and further Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for education colleges, (d) the Department for Work and Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of Pensions and (e) the NHS on steps to improve 7 September 2011, Official Report, column 681W, on electoral registration in (i) Northern Ireland and (ii) the Atos Healthcare: manpower, whether approved rest of the UK. [72127] healthcare professionals carrying out work capability assessments who are under investigation by the Mr Harper: Within the Cabinet Office the Electoral General Medical Council for misconduct other than Registration Transformation Programme (ERTP) is working professional misconduct may continue to carry out with a wide range of stakeholders including individual work capability assessments whilst being investigated. Electoral Registration Officers and the Association of [72713] Electoral Administrators to improve electoral registration under the move to Individual Electoral Registration Chris Grayling: The General Medical Council and (IER). This is both within the context of policy development Atos Healthcare do not differentiate between professional and data matching. Data matching pilot schemes match and other misconduct. the electoral registers against various national databases he term “professional misconduct” in the previous to identify missing people and properties. The Department response refers to cases that the GMC considers require for Work and Pensions are also represented on the investigation into potentially serious concerns (Stream 1 ERTP Board which oversees the programme. referrals). 345W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 346W

It should be noted, however, that there are many John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work cases (for Atos it is the majority) where the General and Pensions what (a) contractual obligations and (b) Medical Council would not consider that the allegations, other processes his Department uses in respect of travel even if proven, would require them to take formal management companies to ensure the best value is action. They refer these cases to the doctor’s employer achieved when purchasing airline tickets. [72711] or contracting body so that they can consider what action, if any, they should take (Stream 2 referrals). Chris Grayling: The DWP has a business travel policy and uses the services of a travel management company Children: Maintenance (TMC) to ensure best value is achieved when purchasing airline tickets. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for The TMC contract was sourced from Government Work and Pensions how many successful prosecutions Procurement Service (GPS) Travel Management Service there have been for failure to make payments to the Provision framework, which was let compliant with the Child Support Agency of non-resident parents of public contracting regulations and EU procurement children residing in Pendle constituency. [71777] directives. This framework offers the most cost-effective travel management services available to central Government. The DWP is contracted with Expotel Hotel Reservations Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Ltd who access the airlines’ global distribution system Commission is responsible for the child maintenance (GDS) and low cost carriers on our behalf. system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner to write to the hon. Member with the information The Department also complies with the Government requested and I have seen the response. Air Programme (GAP) which is a discount framework agreement, launched on 1 August 2009 by the GPS on Letter from Noel Shanahan: behalf of central Government. The TMC uses the In reply to your recent Parliamentary Questions about the Government Air Programme appropriately whenever it Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive is most economical to do so. reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance Departmental policy is that staff must always consider and Enforcement Commission. use of video conferencing where appropriate or travelling You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how by rail rather than air and this has resulted in a 67.4% many successful prosecutions there have been for failure to make reduction in ticket purchases since 2009-10. payments to the Child Support Agency of non-resident parents To facilitate further reductions in air travel, policy of children residing in Pendle constituency. [71777] now restricts air travel for flights within the British Failure to pay child maintenance is not a criminal offence, so mainland to journeys of over 300 miles. Journeys under parents can not be prosecuted. However, where a non-resident this limit require the use of an alternative mode of parent fails to pay maintenance, there are a number of enforcement travel, to limit the Departments’ carbon emissions. actions available. Money can be taken directly from a non-resident parent’s earnings if the non-resident parent is employed, money It should also be noted that the Department has can be taken directly from a non-resident parent’s bank or achieved a 40% reduction in spend on travel in the last building society account, or action can be taken to recover money year and the Department continuously reviews policies through the courts. and processes with a view to driving out further efficiencies. The most serious forms of enforcement are commitment to For example, the Department has introduced a ban on prison or disqualification from driving. The decision whether to first-class rail travel. impose these, and the length of any order made, is at the discretion of a Magistrates’ Court (or Sheriff in Scotland) where they are satisfied that a non-resident parent has “wilfully refused or culpably Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers neglected” to pay child maintenance—but these are not criminal sanctions. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Page 23 of the June 2011 Child Support Agency Quarterly and Pensions what the resource budget allocation was Summary of Statistics (QSS), available at: for the office of his Department’s chief scientific http://www.childmaintenance.org/en/publications/ adviser in each of the last five years for which figures stats0611.html are available. [72499] and in the House of Commons library shows enforcement actions carried out by the Child Support Agency. It is not possible to Chris Grayling: No specific resource budget allocation break down these figures specifically for those non-resident parents who have failed to pay maintenance for children residing in was made in any of the last five years. Pendle. I hope you find this answer helpful. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the salary, including benefits, was of his Department’s chief scientific adviser in each of the Departmental Aviation last five years for which figures are available; and how many individuals have held the post in the last five John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work years. [72500] and Pensions which travel management companies his Department uses for the purchase of airline tickets. Chris Grayling: Dr Bill Gunnyeon has been joint [72680] chief medical adviser and chief scientist of DWP since 1 June 2005. The greater part of his time is spent on his Chris Grayling: The DWP contract with a booking duties as chief medical adviser. It is therefore not possible agent Expotel Hotel Reservations Ltd for the provision to define the salary, including benefits, for the science of air, rail, ferry and hotels. component of his post. 347W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 348W

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Prosecutions: and Pensions how many full-time equivalent staff were DWP’s prosecutions are undertaken by agent solicitors employed in the office of his Department’s chief or barristers in the magistrates courts. We do not have scientific adviser in each of the last five years for which hourly rates, but rather use rates as set out in the figures are available; and on what date the office was following table: established. [72501] London rates Chris Grayling: The office was established in 2003. Number of cases (£) National rates (£) Only part of one post has ever been allocated to support Single case 100.00 75.00 the DWP chief scientific adviser. Two cases in the same court on 125.00 125.00 the same day Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what his policy is on requiring his Three or more cases in the same court on the same Department’s (a) agencies and non-departmental day attracts a flat rate as follows: public bodies and (b) contractors to have a written code of practice or protocol relating to the provision, London rates (£) National rates (£) conduct and quality assurance of scientific evidence For half a day 175.00 175.00 and advice. [72502] For whole day 260.00 260.00

Chris Grayling: All but two of the Department’s We may agree a small uplift in scale rates if the agencies and non-departmental public bodies have no number of cases listed in the same court, on the same reason to commission or seek scientific advice and day, exceeds 20. evidence; the two which do are the Health and Safety For work in the Crown court, rates are paid in Executive and the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council. accordance with the Attorney-General’s Graduated Fee The Health and Safety Commission, and more recently Scheme for Prosecutors. the HSE Board and Chief Executive, are responsible for Civil Litigation: the issues listed in (a), as set out in the DWP/HSE framework document at: DWP only instructs counsel from the Attorney-General’s Panel Counsel list for which the rates in 2010-11 are set http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/howwework/management/ out in the following table: dwphse.pdf

HSE policy is set out at: Panel Rate per hour (£)

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/policy.htm A 120 showing their implementation of the Government Chief B 100 Scientific Adviser’s Guidelines 2010. Research into scientific C 160 evidence for the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council is 280 procured by DWP. DWP’s research policies apply to 1 Under five years call such research, as set out at: 2 Over five years call http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/ If Counsel is required from outside the Attorney- Ts_and_Cs_June_2011.pdf General’s Panel Counsel list, permission and a nomination is sought from the Attorney-General’s Office. Departmental Legal Opinion External Solicitors: DWP has procured a range of call-off contracts for Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work which the rates are set out as follows: and Pensions what the average hourly rate paid was to DWP legal services average supplier rates 2010-11 external (a) solicitors and (b) barristers engaged by £ per hour his Department in 2010-11; what guidance his Average Department uses in commissioning external legal Trainee/ 0-2 3-5 6-10 (across advice; and if he will publish (i) the names of each Supplier paralegal years years years Partner grades) external (A) solicitor and (B) barrister engaged by his Average costs 95 140 162 182 201 156 Department in 2010-11 and (ii) the sums paid in each across all case. [72578] suppliers

Chris Grayling: DWP’s in-house legal services are the A full list and the sums paid on each case could be first point of contact for all legal requirements within provided only at disproportionate cost. the Department. All requests are considered in relation to the Attorney-General’s guidance on the use of external Employment Schemes legal services and the GLS procurement of legal services protocol. A decision is then taken by the in-house team Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for as to whether the legal service required should be delivered Work and Pensions (1) how many (a) jobseeker’s in-house or by an external contracted legal services allowance and (b) employment and support allowance provider. claimants entered the Work programme in each DWP engages solicitors or barristers in three distinct contract package area in each of the eight payment areas for which it has different guidance and rates of groups in each (i) week and (ii) month from 1 June pay: 2011 to 8 September 2011; [72801] 349W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 350W

(2) how many (a) jobseeker’s allowance and (b) The Department is working to guidelines set by the employment and support allowance claimants entered UK Statistics Authority to ensure we are able to publish the Work programme in each contract package area in statistics that meet high quality standards at the earliest each (i) week and (ii) month from 1 June 2011 to 8 opportunity. September 2011; [72802] Statistics on referrals and attachments to the Work (3) what the caseload was of (a) jobseeker’s programme will be published from spring 2012 and Job allowance and (b) employment and support allowance outcome data will be published from autumn 2012. The claimants on the Work programme in each contract Department’s publication strategy for Work Programme package area (i) in total and (ii) in each of the eight statistics was placed in the House of Commons library payment groups in each (A) week and (B) month from and is also available at: 1 June 2011 to 8 September 2011; [72803] http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wp (4) how many job starts were registered on the Work programme in each contract package area for (a) Industrial Health and Safety: Prosecutions jobseeker’s allowance and (b) employment and support allowance claimants (i) in total and (ii) in each of the eight payment groups in each (A) week and (B) Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for month from 1 June 2011 to 8 September 2011; [72804] Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 14 September 2011, Official Report, column 1173W, on (5) how many job outcome payments were made to industrial health and safety: construction, in which providers in each contract package area in respect of employment sectors the duty holders who were employment and support allowance claimants on the prosecuted for health and safety offences operated in work programme (a) in total and (b) in each of the each year. [72774] eight payment groups in each (i) week and (ii) month from 1 June 2011 to 8 September 2011. [72805] Chris Grayling: From 1 April 2006 to 31 March 2011, Chris Grayling: The Work programme was launched the Health and Safety Executive completed 453 prosecutions in June 2011, to deliver sustained employment that can of duty holders employing fewer than 10 employees change people’s lives; providers have longer than ever outside the construction sector. The sector distribution before to make a difference. of these prosecutions is given in the following table:

Duty holders employing fewer than 10 employees (including those with no employees) outside the construction sector prosecuted Number Sector Work year (1 April to 31 March) Agriculture Extractive/utilities Manufacturing Services

2006-07 24 5 52 42 2007-08 9 2 38 33 2008-09 8 1 21 54 2009-10 10 3 21 52 2010-11 10 1 29 38 Note: The above 2010-11 figure is based on current information in advance of the release of official statistics for this year in October 2011.

Jobseeker’s Allowance Jobseeker’s Allowance: West Midlands

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what his most recent estimate is of the and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number amount which will be paid in jobseeker’s allowance in of people under the age of 24 who will have been in England in the next (a) 12, (b) 24 and (c) 36 months. receipt of jobseeker’s allowance for more than 12 months by 2013 in (a) England, (b) the West [72339] Midlands and (c) Dudley borough. [72337] Chris Grayling: The available information is in the Chris Grayling: The Department has made no such following table. Forecasts are produced only for Great estimates. Britain, and for financial years. Means-tested Benefits Jobseeker’s allowance expenditure forecasts 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Great Britain Forecast Forecast Forecast Forecast Work and Pensions how many people who are transitioning from contributory to means-tested £ million, 4,831 4,971 4,676 4,365 nominal terms benefits were ineligible because of the earnings or £ million, 4,831 4,850 4,442 4,037 savings of a spouse, partner, or civil partner in the most (2011-12 recent year for which figures are available; and how prices) many applications for benefits were refused because of Notes: 1. Forecasts are those underpinning the Office for Budget Responsibility’s the earnings or savings of a spouse, partner, or civil Economic and Fiscal Outlook, published alongside the March 2011 Budget, partner in the most recent year for which figures are and are consistent with the claimant unemployment assumption published by available. [72760] in that document. 2. Forecasts are as published on the DWP website at: Chris Grayling: Unfortunately, the information requested http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/index.php?page=expenditure Source: is not available as data on reason for claim closure or Budget 2011 forecasts. refusal are not centrally collated. 351W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 352W

Pensions home repairs and improvement grants and (vi) other services has been for the period later than those given Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for in that answer for which information is available. Work and Pensions what steps his Department is [71440] taking to tackle recent reductions in personal pension contributions and their likely effects on the prosperity Steve Webb: A wide range of services and benefits in of future pensioners. [72590] kind are available to older people and these are administered both centrally and locally by a number of Government Steve Webb: The Government wants to help individuals Departments. As a result, the information is not available by having a stable economy with sustained and balanced in the format requested: some information is not collected growth, which is why we are taking action to tackle the and some could be obtained only at disproportionate deficit and support business in creating jobs. The cost. The information which is available is given as Government’s Growth Review will continue for the rest follows. of this Parliament, providing ongoing focus on what the (i) NHS services Government can do to support growth. People aged 60 and over are able to claim free We believe that pension provision is important and prescriptions and eye tests on the grounds of age. that is why we are introducing workplace pension reform. Detailed information on prescription charges is not Automatic enrolment will be introduced from 2012 held in the format requested. requiring all employers to enrol eligible workers into Free NHS sight tests were made available to people workplace pension saving and to make an employer aged 60 and over from 1 April 1999. Information on the contribution. It is for employers to choose the type of average value of NHS sight tests provided to people scheme they want to use to meet their employer duties aged 60 and over within the area of the former York and this could be a personal pension arrangement. and Selby PCT is only available on a consistent basis for The aim of automatic enrolment is to encourage the three year 2003-04 to 2005-06 and is set out in the people to start saving, continue saving and save for following table. longer to meet their retirement needs. As a result of automatic enrolment we expect there to be around five Number of free NHS Estimated cost of NHS sight tests given to sight tests to people to eight million people newly saving or saving more in Financial year people aged 60 and over aged 60 and over (£) all forms of workplace pension scheme. Automatic enrolment is widely recognised as the best 2003-04 26,254 453,144 way to overcome people’s savings inertia—rather than 2004-05 26,619 474,351 having to make an active decision to save in a workplace 2005-06 25,057 460,798 pension, an employee has to make an active decision PCTs were restructured in October 2006 and no not to save. Even where an individual opts out, the equivalent data for 2006-07 is available. Information for employer is required to re-enrol them every three years, 2007-08 to 2010-11 is available for the North Yorkshire encouraging individuals to rethink about the need to and York PCT area and is set out in the following table. save for their retirement. A programme of communications and information is Number of free NHS Estimated cost of NHS being designed to help people understand the need to sight tests given to sight tests to people save to meet their aspirations for retirement, build awareness Financial year people aged 60 and over aged 60 and over(£) of the changes and support a behavioural shift amongst 2007-08 88,428 1,708,429 working age people so that saving in a pension becomes 2008-09 90,380 1,789,524 the norm. 2009-10 89,805 1,819,449 And for future pensioners the Government are looking 2010-11 88,324 1,828,307 at reforming the state pension system which would be simple, easy to understand, efficient to deliver, affordable— There is no automatic entitlement for pensioners to providing a firm foundation for workplace saving. NHS optical vouchers or free dental treatment. Individuals may qualify for these benefits if they are in receipt of certain qualifying benefits, or if they have been assessed Pensions: City of York as eligible for assistance under the NHS Low Income Scheme. Information on the value of such NHS services Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work provided to patients of pensionable age who qualify on and Pensions (1) what the average monetary value of the basis of their personal economic circumstances is benefits provided by his Department was to (a) single not available centrally and could be obtained only at pensioners and (b) pensioner couples in York in disproportionate cost. respect of (i) NHS Services, (ii) social services, (iii) (ii) Social services travel concessions, (iv) television licences, (v) insulation The following table shows the gross current expenditure and home repairs and improvements grants and (vi) by York council on social services for people aged 65 or other services in each year since 2003-04; [71438] over from 2003-04 to 2009-10.

(2) with reference to the answer of 25 March 2010, 1 Official Report, columns 419-21W, on pensioners: Gross current expenditure by York council on older people (aged 65 or over) social security benefits, what the average monetary Year (1 April to 31 March) Gross current expenditure (£000) value of benefits in kind provided to (a) single 2003-042 21,900 pensioners and (b) pensioner couples in York in 2004-05 25,600 respect of (i) NHS services, (ii) social service, (iii) travel 2005-06 27,500 concessions, (iv) television licences, (v) insulation and 2006-07 27,600 353W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 354W

Gross current expenditure1 by York council on older people (aged 65 or over) Travel concession schemes are provided through local Year (1 April to 31 March) Gross current expenditure (£000) authorities, which have flexibility to enhance their schemes 2007-08 27,600 to offer more than the statutory minimum, so there are 2008-09 30,800 local variations in what is offered and take-up of 2009-10 32,439 concessionary travel also varies from one area to another. 1 Gross expenditure includes income from client contributions, but excludes Therefore it is not possible to quantify the value of the capital charges and certain income items which count as expenditure elsewhere benefit in kind in a specific local authority area. in the public sector, such as contributions from primary care trusts. This is to avoid double counting within the aggregate public sector accounts of the money (iv) Television licences involved. 2 From 2003-04, additional funding was made available to CSSRs via the Free television licences for people aged 75 or over Supporting People grant. Source: were introduced in November 2000. TV Licensing, who R03 and PSS EX1 returns administer free licences as agents for the BBC, are not able to provide geographical breakdowns of licences (iii) Travel concessions issued. However, figures, shown in the table below, are The statutory minimum travel concession, introduced available for the number of households with at least one in April 2008, gives those of pensionable aged and person aged 75 or over receiving winter fuel payments eligible disabled people free off-peak local bus travel in in York local authority. No equivalent data for 2003-04 any part of England. The Government provide around is available. These people would be eligible for a free £1 billion a year to fund the concession. television licence.

York local authority area TV licences fees (£) Number of households with someone aged 75 or over Colour Black and white

2004-05 11,685 121.00 40.50 2005-06 11,930 126.50 42.00 2006-07 12,070 131.50 44.00 2007-08 12,240 135.50 45.50 2008-09 12,180 139.50 47.00 2009-10 12,290 142.50 48.00

(v) Insulation efficiency measures. The following table displays the The Warm Front scheme is one of the Government’s number of pensioner households that have received key programme for tackling fuel poverty in vulnerable Warm Front assistance in the York local authority area households in the private sector in England. Warm since 2003, and the average spend on each of those Front provides grants for heating, insulation and energy households.

Average spend per single Average spend per two Number of single pensioner pensioner household assisted Number of two pensioners pensioner household assisted households assisted in York (£) households assisted in York (£)

2003-04 82 748.75 21 1,701.06 2004-05 87 693.71 22 1,596.59 2005-06 199 778.45 102 765.08 2006-07 364 753.92 252 657.25 2007-08 390 1,020.33 297 998.20 2008-09 199 1,741.24 155 1,612.50 2009-10 142 1,639.09 103 1,542.74 2010-11 96 1,425.91 70 1,617.70

In addition, the Carbon Emissions Reduction Social Security Benefits Target (CERT), an obligation on energy suppliers to deliver carbon savings in the household sector, is the primary existing driver of household energy Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for saving measures—especially insulation. To ensure Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the an equitable distribution of the benefits, the scheme additional cost of welfare benefits attributable to the requires a proportion of the carbon savings be achieved rise in unemployment announced on 14 September in the homes of ’priority’ lower income households 2011. [72769] (aged 70 and over or on certain means tested benefits). In the first two years of the scheme, between April 2008 and March 2010, 3,861 Priority Group Chris Grayling: No such estimate has been made. households in York benefited from subsidised loft and/or The effects of recent changes in unemployment will cavity wall insulation under the scheme. CERT runs to be incorporated into the next Economic and Fiscal December 2012. Outlook to be published by the Office for Budget Responsibility on 29 November. 355W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 356W

Stress Chris Grayling: We are supporting young people into work by investing in flexible, personalised Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Work employment support, apprenticeships, work experience and Pensions what steps his Department plans to take and training. to mark National Stress day. [72814] Jobcentre Plus advisers are now empowered to decide when and how to support claimants using a comprehensive Chris Grayling: DWP will mark National Stress menu of help including skills provision and job search Awareness day with internal intranet communications support. The aim is to give individuals the right support to highlight the support which is available within the at the right time rather than delivering set interventions Department to help employees and managers prevent, at set times as in the past. District Managers have the and deal with, stress. flexibility to put in place the support appropriate to the This support includes: local circumstances and needs of the unemployed young The Department’s Employee Assistance Programme which people in the West Midlands. provides employees and managers with a range of support services including: Work experience and apprenticeships are central to a 24-hour helpline improving the prospects of young unemployed people information and counselling across the country. This Government will deliver at least 250,000 more apprenticeships over the spending workshops and awareness on review period than the previous Government had planned preventing pressure becoming stress and is funding 100,000 work placements over the next developing strategies to cope with change two years. Work Experience offers young people a placement building resilience. with a local business for a period of two to eight weeks. The DWP ‘live well work well’ well-being programme which Placements may be extended by up to four weeks where provides employees with a wealth of on-site and online help and an employer offers the individual an apprenticeship and advice on identifying, and practical ways to reduce, stress. that offer is accepted. This extension will be one of the The occupational health service which provides professional routes that will help to maximise the number of young clinical advice to help employees manage their condition better at people moving off benefits into the 40,000 extra work or to return to work from sick leave. apprenticeships, targeted at unemployed young people, Unemployment: Warrington that were announced in the Budget. Sector-based work academies are being set up to Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work offer pre-employment training, work placements and a and Pensions how many people in Warrington (a) guaranteed interview in sectors with high volumes of under the age of 24 and (b) over the age of 50 have current local vacancies. They are available to people of been unemployed for more than 12 months. [72658] all ages but will be particularly beneficial to young people. Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. We also have in place the Work programme for people The information requested falls within the responsibility who need further help to move into employment. Work of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority programme providers will have complete flexibility to to reply. innovate and design support based on individual and Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2011: local needs rather than having to follow a one-size-fits As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I all approach. Young people aged between 18 and 24 have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking years have priority access after nine months, however how many people in Warrington (a) under the age of 24 and (b) the most disadvantaged young people may enter even over the age of 50 have been unemployed for more than 12 months. earlier after three months of unemployment. (72658) The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Universal Credit: Birmingham However, estimates of unemployment for the requested duration and geography are not available due to a small sample size. As an alternative we have provided the number of persons claiming Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Jobseeker’s Allowance. Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of There were 35 people aged 16-24 and 105 people aged 50 plus the effect of the introduction of universal credit on resident in Warrington in receipt of Jobseeker’s Allowance for women living in Birmingham, Ladywood constituency. over 12 months in August 2011. These estimates are rounded to [72742] the nearest 5. National and local area estimates for many labour market statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Chris Grayling: The information requested is not count are available on the NOMIS website at: available as sample sizes are too small to yield reliable http://www.nomisweb.co.uk results for the impact of universal credit at a constituency level. Unemployment: Young People The Department for Work and Pensions has published Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work an equality impact assessment which assesses the impact and Pensions what steps he plans to take to provide (a) of universal credit, as a whole, on women. This is training and (b) employment opportunities for young available on the Department’s website at: people who have been unemployed for more than six http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/universal-credit-equality-impact- months in the West Midlands. [72338] assessment.pdf 357W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 358W

Work Capability Assessment: Atos Healthcare Where an individual advises the Department, as part of their claim to ESA that they are terminally ill and Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for wish to be considered under the ESA special rules, an Work and Pensions how many Atos approved health ESA50 form will not be issued. This is unless upon care professionals responsible for carrying out work receipt of further medical evidence from the individual’s capability assessments have been dismissed after being chosen healthcare professional or consultant terminal found guilty by the General Medical Council of (a) illness as defined, cannot be confirmed via paper based professional misconduct and (b) misconduct other evidence. In these unusual circumstances, the individual than professional misconduct in the last year. [72712] would receive an ESA50 questionnaire and usually be invited to attend a face to face assessment. Chris Grayling: In the last year, one Atos approved The ESA50 was developed and designed in consultation doctor’s contract was terminated by Atos for misconduct with medical experts and groups representing disabled following a GMC investigation which placed conditions people. Workshops were also held with service users to on the doctor’s registration. get their views and suggestions on the questionnaire. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Their comments were taken into account in the development Work and Pensions how many Atos approved of the form, as were those of the social security advisory healthcare professionals carrying out work capability committee. assessments are under investigation by the General We are committed to continuously improving the Medical Council for (a) professional misconduct and WCA to ensure that it is as fair and accurate as possible. (b) misconduct other than professional misconduct. As part of this the ESA50 is also regularly reviewed and [72714] refined. Chris Grayling: There are no doctors currently carrying out work capability assessments who are under investigation EDUCATION by the GMC. Antisocial Behaviour: Crime Prevention Work Capability Assessment: Health Professions Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he has received representations on Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for the (a) appropriateness, (b) ethics and (c) legality of Work and Pensions what minimum qualifications are the use of the Mosquito device; and if he will make a required of approved healthcare professionals statement. [69561] undertaking work capability assessments. [72283] Sarah Teather: The mosquito device has been criticised Chris Grayling: Doctors must be registered with the by a number of children’s rights organisations on the General Medical Council; nurses with the Nursing and grounds that it infringes children’s right to peaceful Midwifery Council and physiotherapists with the Health assembly. In October 2008, within its concluding Professions Council. All Healthcare Professionals must observations on the UK’s implementation of UNCRC, have three years broad-based clinical post-registration the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child asked experience and achieve approval (post training) from the UK Government to the DWP chief medical adviser before undertaking “reconsider the use of mosquito devices insofar as they may work capability assessments. violate the rights of children to freedom of movement and Work Capability Assessment: Illnesses peaceful assembly”. In June 2010, the Council of Europe recommended that Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Governments and local authorities in member states Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of ban the mosquito device. There has been no case taken 7 September 2011, Official Report, column 681W, and to the European Court of Human Rights regarding the to the answer of 19 July 2011, Official Report, column mosquito device, and none that have cited the Human 856W, on work capability assessment: illnesses, whether Rights Act in the UK. Ministerial colleagues and I have in circumstances where insufficient information is made clear our opposition to the mosquito devices available and an ESA50 form is sent to a claimant with being used to discriminate against children and young a terminal illness, the special employment and support people. allowance rules prevent a person with a terminal illness Building Schools for the Future Programme receiving an ESA50; and what account he took of the possibility of a terminally ill person receiving an Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for ESA50 form due to insufficient information when Education pursuant to the Answer of 6 September taking the decision not to modify the ESA50 2011, Official Report, column 593W, on the Building questionnaire to include specific questions about Schools for the Future programme, if he will estimate terminal illness. [72657] the total cost to the public purse to date of the cancellation of Building Schools for the Future Chris Grayling: Individuals who are diagnosed with a funding, including costs to local authorities of legal progressive disease, where death is a likely consequence fees and contractual liabilities for cancellation of work of that disease and where this is reasonably expected already under way. [71647] within six months, will be treated as having limited capability for work and limited capability for work Mr Gibb: The Secretary of State for Education, my related activity, and as such they are placed in the right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Support group of employment and support allowance Gove), has no plans to estimate the cost of cancelling (ESA) with the additional support which that entails. the Building Schools for the Future (BSF) programme. 359W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 360W

However, a review of each scheme’s costs by the relevant Mr Gibb: Three members of staff work exclusively on local authorities and indexation savings has yielded carrying out due diligence checks on the suitability of £500 million in savings. Further efficiencies are being those who have applied to establish free schools. A sought by applying new ways of delivering this investment further 8.6 full-time equivalent members of staff are that will maximise value for money, as set out in Sebastian involved in assessing the suitability of free school proposers James’s review of schools capital. The benefits of this alongside other responsibilities. The Department is also innovative approach to driving out greater efficiencies is able to draw on other sources of expertise, including the already evident in the Campsmount project in Doncaster, police and other agencies, in order to ensure the suitability which is being built at significantly lower cost than BSF of people to set up and operate free schools. schemes of the same size. Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Computer Programming Education how much his Department has spent on the establishment of free schools. [72318] Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent assessment he has made of the Mr Gibb: Current estimates are that the total capital effectiveness of the national curriculum in teaching costs for the 24 free schools opening in 2011 will range computer programming. [71965] from £110 million to £130 million. The Department will publish the full financial information for approved free Mr Gibb: Elements of computer programming can schools once final costs have been agreed. be taught within Information and Communications International Baccalaureate: Dorset Technology (ICT) which is currently a compulsory subject within the national curriculum at key stages 1-4. Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department is conducting a comprehensive review Education how many schools in (a) Bournemouth, (b) of the existing national curriculum. This review included Dorset and (c) England offer the International a call for evidence to which stakeholders and the public Baccalaureate. [72613] were invited to contribute their views about curriculum subjects, including ICT.We received nearly 5,800 responses, Mr Gibb: We do not hold information on the number including many from representatives of industry and of schools which offer the International Baccalaureate commerce, and these are currently being analysed. to their students. In the 2009/10 academic year, there were no schools in Bournemouth which entered post-16 Computer Science pupils for the International Baccalaureate; three schools in Dorset entered post-16 pupils for the International Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Baccalaureate (one voluntary-aided school and two Education what plans he has to (a) make computer independent schools); 131 schools and Further Education science a core subject in the curriculum and (b) adapt colleges in England entered post-16 pupils for the the curriculum in respect of digital and high International Baccalaureate. Information on 2010/11 technology subjects. [71966] academic year entries for the International Baccalaureate will be available in October. Mr Gibb: We are currently reviewing the national curriculum to focus it on the essential body of knowledge New Schools Network in key subjects which all children need to learn in order to succeed in education and in life, and to give teachers Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for greater flexibility beyond that to design and teach a Education (1) if he will place in the Library copies of curriculum which best meets the needs of their pupils. all correspondence between (a) his Department and We have confirmed that English, mathematics, science the New Schools Network and (b) his Department and and physical education will remain compulsory at all other bodies concerning the New Schools Network; four key stages within the national curriculum. We are [70499] currently considering which of the other subjects that (2) what the cost to the public purse was of resources are currently part of the national curriculum, including awarded to the New Schools Network since May 2010; information and communication technology, should remain [70500] so in future, and intend to announce proposals in the (3) whether his Department has awarded funding to new year. the New Schools Network since 31 July 2011. [70501]

Free Schools Mr Gibb [holding answer 7 September 2011]: The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has no Education how many free school applications have plans to publish copies of all correspondence relating to been rejected on the grounds of the extreme views of the New Schools Network (NSN) beyond what has the sponsors. [72269] already been published. On 18 June 2010 the Department agreed to enter into a grant agreement with NSN; the Mr Gibb: The Department does not publish details of agreement was formally signed on 8 November 2010. unsuccessful applications. No payments have been made after 31 July 2011.

Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many staff there are in his Department Education (1) what conditions were attached to the carrying out checks on the suitability of free school grant from his Department to the New Schools sponsors. [72270] Network in respect of performance indicators; [70743] 361W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 362W

(2) to which events his Department has invited (NSN). The agreement contains standard conditions representatives of the New Schools Network since May covering the grant only being used for the purposes it 2010; [70744] was given; financial management including audited (3) what meetings with civil servants in his accounts, costed plans and budgets; due regard to the Department Dominic Cummings attended whilst Compact with the third sector; and conflicts of interest. receiving payment from the New Schools Network; Officials have been in regular contact with NSN [70746] throughout the grant period, discussing performance in (4) if he will place in the Library a copy of each item all areas of NSN’s remit under the terms of the grant. A of correspondence between his Department and the more formal discussion took place in the spring during New Schools Network since May 2010; [70747] which officials and NSN assessed delivery against the key performance indicators published in the Department’s (5) what conditions were attached to the grant letter to the NSN of 18 June 2010 and a similar discussion awarded to the New Schools Network by his will take place later this month. Department in July 2010; and what assessment criteria were in place to measure compliance with these Representatives of NSN have been invited to a number conditions; [70748] of meetings and events since last summer. Dominic Cummings attended some meetings as part of the NSN (6) what feedback his Department has received from representative group prior to his employment as a special potential providers of free schools on the service the adviser but the Department does not hold any details New Schools Network provides under its agreement about his financial arrangements with NSN. with his Department; [70749] The Department has received positive feedback about (7) what requirements his Department has placed the NSN from free school proposers, in relation to both upon the New Schools Network to report on its the quality and timeliness of the service it provides. activities in relation to the grant it receives from his Department; [70750] Pupils: Disadvantaged (8) if he will place in the Library a copy of the grant Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for agreement reached between his Department and the Education how many children received free school New Schools Network in November 2010. [70751] meals in (a) Ashfield, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) England in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011. Mr Gibb: The Secretary of State for Education, my [72394] right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), currently has no plans to publish every item of Mr Gibb: The available information on the number of correspondence, or the grant agreement, between the pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school Department for Education and the New Schools Network meals is shown in the tables.

Number and percentage of pupils1, 2 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals, January each year

Ashfield constituency

Maintained nursery and state-funded primary schools3, 4 State-funded secondary schools3, 5 Special schools6

Number of Percentage Number of Percentage Number of Percentage pupils known known to be pupils known known to be pupils known known to be to be eligible eligible for to be eligible eligible for to be eligible eligible for for and and claiming for and and claiming for and and claiming Number on claiming free free school Number on claiming free free school Number on claiming free free school roll school meals meals roll school meals meals roll school meals meals

2008 7,466 1,328 17.8 5,853 855 14.6 113 37 32.7

2009 7,325 1,430 19.5 5,685 868 15.3 114 36 31.6

2010 7,275 1,576 21.7 5,604 895 16.0 119 38 31.9

2011 7,246 1,651 22.8 5,517 916 16.6 125 40 32.0

Maintained nursery, state-funded primary3, 4, state-funded secondary3, 5, Pupil referral units7 special schools6 and pupil referral units7

Number of pupils Percentage known to Number of pupils Percentage known to known to be eligible be eligible for and known to be eligible be eligible for and for and claiming free claiming free school for and claiming free claiming free school Number on roll school meals meals Number on roll school meals meals

2008 — — — 13,430 2,220 16.5

2009 — — — 13,125 2,335 17.8

2010 0 0 0.0 13,000 2,510 19.3 363W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 364W

Maintained nursery, state-funded primary3, 4, state-funded secondary3, 5, Pupil referral units7 special schools6 and pupil referral units7

Number of pupils Percentage known to Number of pupils Percentage known to known to be eligible be eligible for and known to be eligible be eligible for and for and claiming free claiming free school for and claiming free claiming free school Number on roll school meals meals Number on roll school meals meals

2011 0 0 0.0 12,890 2,605 20.2

Nottinghamshire local authority area Maintained nursery and state-funded primary schools3, 4 State-funded secondary schools3, 5 Special schools6 Number of Percentage Number of Percentage Number of Percentage pupils known known to be pupils known known to be pupils known known to be to be eligible eligible for to be eligible eligible for to be eligible eligible for for and and claiming for and and claiming for and and claiming Number on claiming free free school Number on claiming free free school Number on claiming free free school roll school meals meals roll school meals meals roll school meals meals

2008 56,679 7,092 12.5 46,087 5,316 11.5 705 196 27.8 2009 56,351 7,569 13.4 45,101 5,571 12.4 693 191 27.6 2010 56,012 8,204 14.6 44,219 5,632 12.7 697 197 28.3 2011 56,352 8,720 15.5 43,197 5,553 12.9 702 199 28.3

Maintained nursery, state-funded primary3, 4, state-funded secondary3, 5, Pupil referral units7 special schools6 and pupil referral units7 Number of pupils Percentage known to Number of pupils Percentage known to known to be eligible be eligible for and known to be eligible be eligible for and for and claiming free claiming free school for and claiming free claiming free school Number on roll school meals meals Number on roll school meals meals

2008 — — — 103,470 12,605 12.2 2009 — — — 102,145 13,330 13.1 2010 176 59 33.5 101,105 14,090 13.9 2011 154 63 40.9 100,405 14,535 14.5

England Maintained nursery and state-funded primary schools3, 4 State-funded secondary schools3, 5 Special schools6 Number of Percentage Number of Percentage Number of Percentage pupils known known to be pupils known known to be pupils known known to be to be eligible eligible for to be eligible eligible for to be eligible eligible for for and and claiming for and and claiming for and and claiming Number on claiming free free school Number on claiming free free school Number on claiming free free school roll school meals meals roll school meals meals roll school meals meals

2008 3,837,680 637,170 16.6 2,913,725 413,365 14.2 78,265 25,705 32.8 2009 3,825,475 652,305 17.1 2,883,245 417,970 14.5 78,030 26,245 33.6 2010 3,838,680 711,405 18.5 2,864,345 441,145 15.4 78,335 27,325 34.9 2011 3,873,175 743,255 19.2 2,837,825 450,275 15.9 79,030 28,830 36.5

Maintained nursery, state-funded primary3, 4, state-funded secondary3, 5, Pupil referral units7 special schools6 and pupil referral units7 Number of pupils Percentage known to Number of pupils Percentage known to known to be eligible be eligible for and known to be eligible be eligible for and for and claiming free claiming free school for and claiming free claiming free school Number on roll school meals meals Number on roll school meals meals

2008 — — — 6,829,670 1,076,240 15.8 2009 — — — 6,786,750 1,096,525 16.2 2010 15,140 5,050 33.3 6,796,500 1,184,920 17.4 2011 13,725 4,745 34.6 6,803,755 1,227,110 18.0 1 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. In pupil referral units also includes pupils registered with other providers and further education colleges. 2 Includes pupils who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part-time attendance and are aged between five and 15 (age as at31 August). 3 Includes middle schools as deemed. 4 Includes primary academies. 5 Includes city technology colleges and academies, including all through academies. 6 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 7 Comparable information for pupil referral units is not available prior to 2010 (when the collection became pupil-level). Note: National numbers and totals across school categories have been rounded to the nearest five. Source: School Census. 365W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 366W

The latest information, for January 2011, on free Teachers: Pensions school meal eligibility and other school and pupil information can be found in the “Schools, Pupils and Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for their Characteristics: January 2011” Statistical First Education when his Department last received a Release at: valuation of the Teachers Pension Scheme. [72411] http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001012/ index.shtml Mr Gibb: The latest valuation of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme was published in November 2006. Schools: Admissions This was the Actuarial review of the scheme as at 31 March 2004. Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education which individuals and organisations (a) he and (b) the Schools Minister has met to discuss the Draft Code on Admissions since its publication. CABINET OFFICE [72265] Departmental Air Travel Mr Gibb: The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) and I have met a significant number of groups John Mann: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and individuals to discuss a range of topics during the Office what (a) contractual obligations and (b) other period of the consultation. While a number of these processes his Department uses in respect of travel groups would have raised admissions in the margins of management companies to ensure the best value is those meetings, there were no meetings specifically to achieved when purchasing airline tickets. [72696] discuss just the admissions and appeals codes. A full list of consultation respondents will be published in due Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office is committed to course. minimising travel costs and reducing our carbon footprint. In order to take advantage of the best rates Cabinet Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Office has entered into a Buying Solutions framework Education when he plans to publish the new Schools contract with Carlson Wagonlit (CWT). Admissions Code. [72266] From 2012 we will be moving to the new Government Procurement Service contract. Mr Gibb: The consultation closed on 19 August and we received a significant number of responses, particularly Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers from parents. We are now finalising the draft School Admissions and Appeals Codes, taking account of the Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet results of the consultation and the views expressed. It Office what his policy is on requiring his Department’s remains our intention to bring the new Codes into force (a) agencies and non-departmental public bodies and in early 2012 in time for the September 2013 intake (b) contractors to have a written code of practice or process. We shall publish a revised draft, as soon as protocol relating to the provision, conduct and quality possible, to assist schools and local authorities that are assurance of scientific evidence and advice. [72441] their own admission authorities develop their local arrangements in good time. Until the new Codes are Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office is committed to handling brought into force, all admission authorities must comply science and engineering advice in accordance with the with the existing Codes. Government Chief Scientific Adviser’s “Guidelines on the use of science and engineering advice in policy Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for making”. Education how many of the respondents to his Department’s consultation on the Admissions Code were (a) in favour and (b) not in favour of offering Employment: Scotland priority to the children of school staff for admission to the relevant school. [72267] Margaret Curran: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what information his Department holds Mr Gibb: The consultation closed on 19 August and on the number of jobs which were created in Scotland we received a significant number of responses, particularly in the (a) public and (b) private sector in each of the from parents. We are now finalising the draft School last five years. [72969] Admission and Appeals Codes, taking account of the results of the consultation and the views expressed. We Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the shall publish a revised draft set of codes, as soon as responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have possible, to assist schools and local authorities that are asked the authority to reply. their own admission authorities, to develop their local Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2011: arrangements in good time. Alongside the revised draft As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I codes, we intend to publish a detailed breakdown of the have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question consultation, including the information requested on asking for the number of jobs which were created in Scotland in children of staff, together with our response to the the (a) public and (b) private sector in each of the last five years consultation. Until the new codes are brought into (72969). force, all admission authorities must comply with the As this matter is the responsibility of Scottish ministers I existing codes. would advise that you write to the Scottish Government. 367W Written Answers11 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 368W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS access to licensed credit and potentially forcing them to have to borrow from unlicensed illegal lenders. Apprentices: Devon The Department will give an update on the progress of the research in the spring and anticipates that the Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for research will have been completed and the findings Business, Innovation and Skills how many announced by summer 2012. apprenticeships were taken up in (a) Devon and (b) Newton Abbot constituency in each of the last Small Businesses 12 months. [72677] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows a quarterly breakdown of for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent apprenticeship starts in Devon local education authority assessment he has made of the contribution of small and Newton Abbot parliamentary constituency, in the and medium-sized businesses to the economy. [72780] first nine months of the 2010/11 academic year, from August 2010 to April 2011, based on provisional data. Mr Prisk: Small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) The Statistical First Release is used for the latest make a very significant contribution to the UK economy. apprenticeship figures. Monthly apprenticeship data is Statistics released by the Department for Business, not available. Innovation and Skills show that at the start of 2010, Table 1: Apprenticeship starts in Devon local education authority and Newton there were an estimated 4.5 million SMEs, accounting Abbot constituency, between 1 August 2010 and 30 April 2011 (provisional) for 99.9% of all UK private sector enterprises. SMEs Provisional also contributed more than half of all private sector November employment (13.3 million or 59.1%) and almost half of August 2010 2010 to February August 2010 all private sector turnover (£1,600 billion or 48.6%). to October January 2011 to to April 2010 2011 April 2011 2011 Other data produced by the Office for National Statistics estimate that in 2009, SMEs contributed almost half Devon local 2,330 1,560 1,390 5,280 (48.3%) of all UK private sector output as measured by education authority gross value added (GVA). Newton 320 170 160 660 Abbot Small Businesses: Billing constituency Notes: Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Geography information is based upon the home postcode of the learner. for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will assess the Source: effects of late payments on the productivity of small Individualised Learner Record and medium-sized businesses. [72781] Information on the number of apprenticeship starts is published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). Mr Prisk: There are no robust data about the impact The latest SFR was published on 23 June 2011: of late payment upon the productivity of small and http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ medium-sized businesses but we do know that late statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current payment creates a climate of uncertainty in the supply chain, inhibiting investment and innovation and stifling Credit growth. That is why Government have worked hand in hand Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for with the UK’s leading business representative organisations, Business, Innovation and Skills by what date his finance bodies and banks to develop a multi-faceted Department expects to announce a winning tender for strategy for addressing what is a long-standing and its proposed research into the likely effects of caps on widespread culture of late payment. the cost of credit; by what date such research is due to be completed; and by what date the results of the A critical issue in this regard is supporting business to research will be announced. [72207] better manage customer relationships: the majority of UK transactions currently take place with no pre-agreed Mr Davey [holding answer 10 October 2011]: The payment terms and Barclays data show that only one in Department for Business, Innovation and Skills expects 10 suppliers regularly credit checks customers. to make an announcement on the outcome of the The guides on managing cash flow, developed by the tendering process on carrying out research on the impact Institute of Credit Management and supported by all of a cap on the total cost of credit that can be charged the UK’s leading business organisations, finance bodies in the short to medium-term fixed rate high cost credit and banks, have proven to be very popular. They provide market at the end of October. a simple checklist on a variety of cash flow actions, Rather than a cap on the total cost of credit, research including agreeing payment terms and invoicing correctly. commissioned by the previous Administration considered While changing a long-standing culture takes time, the impact of flat rate interest rate caps in the high cost the latest data we have on late payment across the UK credit market. This research found that interest rate economy (sourced from Experian) show speed of payment caps would in all likelihood be detrimental to those improving in the second quarter of 2011 and better consumers who rely on this market for credit, reducing than the same period in 2010. 3MC Ministerial Corrections11 OCTOBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

The MOD is co-operating fully with Sir Peter Gibson’s Ministerial Corrections Detainee inquiry, the purpose of which was described by the Prime Minister, in July 2010 as to Tuesday 11 October 2011 “examine whether, and if so to what extent, the UK Government and its intelligence agencies were involved in improper treatment of detainees held by other countries in counter-terrorism operations overseas, or were aware of the improper treatment of detainees in operations in which the UK was involved”. DEFENCE We understand that the Detainee inquiry will consider this case as part of their work. Records of Detention The correct answer should have been: Dr Fox [holding answer 9 June 2011]: These individuals Mr Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence were members of Lashkar-e-Taiba and they were captured with reference to the oral statement of 26 February as they posed an imperative threat to security in Iraq. 2009, Official Report, columns 3294-97W, on records of They had travelled to Iraq to target coalition forces and detention (review conclusions) and the answer of 6 July the operation launched against them was necessary in 2009, Official Report, column 549W, on Afghanistan: order to save lives. Our forces risked their lives to detainees, what steps UK authorities took to determine capture such individuals and to ensure the security of the status, under the Geneva conventions, of the two Iraq. detainees concerned; whether the two individuals were They were captured by UK forces in and around classified by the UK authorities as (a) prisoners of war, Baghdad in February 2004, at the time that the UK was (b) civilians, (c) protected persons or (d) under any an occupying power in south eastern Iraq, and immediately other legal classification; in what detention centres in transferred to US forces in Iraq in accordance with Iraq the two detainees were held by the US prior to established processes. The reason for this transfer was their transfer to Afghanistan; and on what date the two that the UK did not have its own detention facility close transfers to Afghanistan took place. [58497] to where the two individuals were captured. The individuals [Official Report, 13 July 2011, Vol. 531, c. 371-72W.] were then initially held in US detention in and around Letter of correction from Dr Liam Fox: Baghdad, and subsequently transferred to a US detention facility in Afghanistan in March 2004. An error has been identified in the written answer UK forces did not undertake an assessment of whether given to the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) on or not the individuals were prisoners of war because 13 July 2011. they were immediately transferred to US forces for The full answer given was as follows: detention. As part of the review of the case completed by officials between late 2008 and early 2009, the Ministry Dr Fox [holding answer 9 June 2011]: These individuals of Defence (MOD) considered the status of the detainees were members of Lashkar-e-Taiba and they were captured and determined that, as there was no information to as they posed an imperative threat to security in Iraq. suggest that they were members of the armed forces of They had travelled to Iraq to target coalition forces and Iraq, they would not have been prisoners of war. They the operation launched against them was necessary in may have been protected persons under the Geneva order to save lives. Our forces risked their lives to conventions, subject to certain criteria being satisfied. If capture such individuals and to ensure the security of they were protected persons, compliance with the Geneva Iraq. conventions in respect of detainees held by US forces They were captured by UK forces in and around was primarily a matter for the US. Baghdad in February 2004, at the time that the UK was The MOD is co-operating fully with Sir Peter Gibson’s an occupying power in south eastern Iraq, and immediately Detainee inquiry, the purpose of which was described transferred to US forces in Iraq in accordance with by the Prime Minister, in July 2010 as to established processes. The reason for this transfer was “examine whether, and if so to what extent, the UK Government that the UK did not have its own detention facility close and its intelligence agencies were involved in improper treatment to where the two individuals were captured. The individuals of detainees held by other countries in counter-terrorism operations overseas, or were aware of the improper treatment of detainees in were then held in US detention at Balad and subsequently operations in which the UK was involved”. transferred to a US detention facility in Afghanistan by We understand that the Detainee inquiry will consider August 2004. this case as part of their work. UK forces did not undertake an assessment of whether or not the individuals were prisoners of war because they were immediately transferred to US forces for TREASURY detention. As part of the review of the case completed by officials between late 2008 and early 2009, the Ministry Public Sector Pensions of Defence (MOD) considered the status of the detainees Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and determined that, as there was no information to what estimate he has made of the level of financial suggest that they were members of the armed forces of liability for public sector pensions. [66537] Iraq, they would not have been prisoners of war. They may have been protected persons under the Geneva [Official Report, 18 July 2011, Vol. 531, c. 540W.] conventions, subject to certain criteria being satisfied. If Letter of correction from Danny Alexander: they were protected persons, compliance with the Geneva An error has been identified in the written answer conventions in respect of detainees held by US forces given to the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) was primarily a matter for the US. on 18 July 2011. 5MC Ministerial Corrections11 OCTOBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

The full answer given was as follows: The correct answer should have been:

Danny Alexander: The latest estimate of the total Danny Alexander: The latest estimate of the total public service pension net liability is £1,133 million, as public service pension net liability is £1,133 billion, as disclosed in the unaudited summary report of the Whole disclosed in the unaudited summary report of the Whole of Governments Accounts for the year end 31 March of Governments Accounts for the year end 31 March 2010 published on 13 July 2011. 2010 published on 13 July 2011. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 11 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 176 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 163 Crown Prosecution Service (Staffing Costs) ...... 179 Electoral Register...... 166 Domestic and Sexual Violence ...... 180 Lobbyists (Statutory Register) ...... 163 Female Genital Mutilation...... 178 Prisoner Voting ...... 164 Forensic Science Service...... 183 Size of the Executive...... 168 Human Trafficking ...... 181 Topical Questions ...... 169 Magistrates’ Sentencing Powers...... 176 West Lothian Question ...... 164 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 11 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 17WS JUSTICE...... 23WS Olympic Park Legacy Update ...... 17WS Right of Access to a Lawyer in Criminal Proceedings and Right to Communicate upon DEFENCE...... 17WS Arrest (Opt-in Decision on Draft EU Defence Vetting Agency: Removal of Agency Directive) ...... 23WS Status...... 17WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 18WS TRANSPORT ...... 24WS Weightman Report (Fukushima)...... 18WS High-volume Semi-trailers ...... 24WS

HEALTH...... 20WS TREASURY ...... 17WS Choosing a Named Consultant-led Team HM Revenue and Customs (Consultation) ...... 17WS (Government Response)...... 20WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 21WS WALES...... 25WS Control Order Powers ...... 21WS Commission on Devolution in Wales ...... 25WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Monday 10 October 2011—[Continued.]

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 257W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Adult Education: Finance...... 257W Mass Media ...... 275W Apprentices...... 258W Medical Research Council ...... 276W Apprentices: Birmingham ...... 257W Metals...... 277W Arms Trade: Export Controls ...... 258W National Apprenticeship Service...... 277W Business: Entry Clearances ...... 258W Nuclear Reactors: Research ...... 278W Consumers: Protection...... 259W Overseas Students ...... 278W Debts: Advisory Services...... 260W Overseas Trade: Bangladesh...... 279W Departmental Advertising...... 260W Overseas Trade: Pakistan ...... 280W Departmental Air Travel ...... 261W Police: Compensation...... 280W Departmental Legal Opinion ...... 261W Postal Services...... 281W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 263W Postal Services: Competition...... 282W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 263W Public Sector...... 282W Education: Young Offender Institutions ...... 264W Research Councils...... 282W Employment Agencies: EU Law ...... 264W Serco ...... 283W Employment: Regulation ...... 265W Students: Immigration ...... 283W Engineering: Graduates ...... 265W Union Modernisation Fund...... 283W English Language: Education ...... 266W Vacancies ...... 284W Entry Clearances: India ...... 269W York College: Finance...... 284W Export Credits Guarantee Department...... 270W Flexible Working...... 271W HEALTH...... 286W Fossil Fuels: Export Credit Guarantees ...... 271W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 286W Franchises...... 271W Anti-Slavery Day...... 290W Further Education: Buildings...... 271W Blood: Donors ...... 291W Higher Education: York...... 272W Botulinum Toxin ...... 292W Industry ...... 273W Breast Feeding ...... 293W Insolvency...... 273W Care Homes: Fees and Charges...... 293W Lighters: Safety...... 274W Care UK: Correspondence...... 294W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 223W Cataracts: Waiting Lists ...... 294W A New Approach to Child Poverty ...... 223W College of Social Work ...... 295W Access to Work Programme ...... 223W Community Resuscitation...... 296W Departmental Regulation...... 224W Day Centres ...... 296W Disability: Atos Healthcare...... 226W Dental Services ...... 297W Disability: Cars ...... 227W Departmental Air Travel ...... 297W Disability: Children...... 227W Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 298W Disability Living Allowance: Autism...... 225W Departmental Consultants...... 299W Disability Living Allowance: Diseases...... 225W Departmental Legal Opinion ...... 299W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 228W Departmental Local Government ...... 301W Employment and Support Allowance: Atos Drugs: Misuse...... 302W Healthcare ...... 229W General Practitioners: Conferences...... 302W Employment: Milton Keynes ...... 231W General Practitioners: North East...... 303W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 230W Hay Diet ...... 303W Employment: Scotland...... 232W Health...... 303W Housing Benefit ...... 232W Health and Social Care Bill...... 304W Housing Benefit: Leeds ...... 234W Health Professions: Regulation ...... 304W Housing Benefit: Mental Illness ...... 235W Health: Research...... 306W Housing Benefit: Wales...... 235W Health Services: North East...... 304W Innovation Fund...... 236W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 306W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 236W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 308W New Enterprise Allowance...... 237W Methadone: Wirral ...... 308W Pensions...... 237W NHS: Finance ...... 308W Poverty...... 238W NHS: Private Patients ...... 309W Redundancy: Manufacturing Industries...... 249W Ophthalmic Services: Finance...... 309W Rents: Ashfield...... 250W Pancreatic Cancer: Screening ...... 309W Sick Leave ...... 250W Plastic Surgery: Regulation ...... 310W Social Security Benefits: EU Nationals ...... 251W Radiotherapy ...... 310W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 251W Radiotherapy: South West ...... 312W Unemployment: Birmingham ...... 253W Smoking: Children...... 313W Unemployment: Training ...... 254W Social Services: Reform...... 313W Universal Credit: West Lothian...... 255W Solvents: Misuse ...... 313W Work Capability Assessment: Atos Healthcare ...... 255W Strokes: Medical Treatments ...... 314W Work Capability Assessment: Health Professions .. 256W Sunderland Royal Hospital: Waiting Lists ...... 314W WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 11 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 320W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 340W Criminal Proceedings: Victim Support...... 320W Civil Disorder ...... 341W Electoral Register...... 342W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 367W Electoral Register: Standards ...... 344W Apprentices: Devon...... 367W Parliamentary Constituencies ...... 341W Credit...... 367W Party Funding...... 341W Small Businesses ...... 368W Second Chamber...... 340W Small Businesses: Billing ...... 368W Trust in Politics ...... 341W West Lothian Question ...... 340W CABINET OFFICE...... 366W Departmental Air Travel ...... 366W EDUCATION...... 358W Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 366W Antisocial Behaviour: Crime Prevention ...... 358W Employment: Scotland...... 366W Building Schools for the Future Programme ...... 358W Computer Programming ...... 359W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 336W Computer Science ...... 359W Departmental Air Travel ...... 336W Free Schools...... 359W Departmental Legal Opinion ...... 337W International Baccalaureate: Dorset...... 360W Local Development Frameworks ...... 337W New Schools Network...... 360W Social Rented Housing: Chippenham ...... 337W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 362W Schools: Admissions ...... 365W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 317W Teachers: Pensions ...... 366W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 317W

DEFENCE...... 333W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 320W Deepcut Barracks...... 333W Electoral Register...... 320W Defence...... 334W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 334W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 319W Libya: Arms Trade...... 334W International Climate Fund Implementation Plan . 319W Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder...... 335W Wind Power ...... 319W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 322W TRANSPORT—continued Cluster Munitions...... 322W Departmental Job Satisfaction...... 338W Libya: UN Resolutions ...... 323W Departmental Procurement...... 338W Paraguay: Forests...... 323W Railways...... 338W Railways: Contracts ...... 339W HEALTH...... 324W Railways: Olympic Games 2012 ...... 339W Cancer: Drugs...... 324W Rescue Services ...... 339W Departmental Data Protection...... 324W Thameslink Railway Line...... 340W Departmental Policy ...... 325W Departmental Security ...... 325W TREASURY ...... 320W Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy: Research ...... 326W Departmental Manpower...... 320W Exercise: Finance ...... 326W Parish Councils: PAYE...... 321W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 326W Public Sector Net Cash Requirement ...... 321W NHS Foundation Trusts...... 327W Revenue and Customs: Correspondence ...... 322W Smoking: Motor Vehicles...... 328W Tuberculosis: Screening...... 329W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES ...... 317W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 329W Females: Unemployment ...... 317W Asylum ...... 329W Domestic Violence: Immigrants ...... 330W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 344W Members: Correspondence ...... 330W Atos Healthcare: Doctors ...... 344W Missing Persons Bureau...... 330W Atos Healthcare: Manpower...... 344W Police Deaths on Duty ...... 330W Children: Maintenance ...... 345W Smuggling: Tobacco...... 331W Departmental Aviation ...... 345W Third Sector...... 332W Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 346W Departmental Legal Opinion ...... 347W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 319W Employment Schemes ...... 348W Sitting Days ...... 319W Industrial Health and Safety: Prosecutions ...... 350W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 349W JUSTICE...... 317W Jobseeker’s Allowance: West Midlands ...... 350W Automatic Number Plate Recognition ...... 317W Means-tested Benefits ...... 350W Driving Offences: Sentencing ...... 318W Pensions...... 351W Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Pensions: City of York ...... 351W Offenders Bill...... 318W Social Security Benefits...... 354W Youth Justice Board ...... 318W Stress...... 355W Unemployment: Warrington ...... 355W PRIME MINISTER ...... 319W Unemployment: Young People...... 355W Members: Correspondence ...... 319W Universal Credit: Birmingham...... 356W Work Capability Assessment: Atos Healthcare ...... 357W TRANSPORT ...... 338W Work Capability Assessment: Health Professions .. 357W Bus Services: Finance...... 338W Work Capability Assessment: Illnesses...... 357W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 11 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 3MC TREASURY ...... 4MC Records of Detention ...... 3MC Public Sector Pensions ...... 4MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 18 October 2011

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 11 October 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 163] [see index inside back page] Deputy Prime Minister Attorney-General

Weightman Report (Fukushima) [Col. 185] Answer to urgent question—(Chris Huhne)

Co-operative Housing Tenure Bill [Col. 198] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Jonathan Reynolds)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Protection of Freedoms Bill [Col. 201] As amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

Financial Assistance to Ireland and Portugal [Col. 301] Motion to take note of EC document—(Bill Wiggin)—on a Division, agreed to

Nuclear Power Production (Sellafield) [Col. 307] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Gangs [Col. 1WH] Rural Bus Services [Col. 23WH] Education System (Dance) [Col. 49WH] Marine Operations (Weymouth) [Col. 57WH] School Places (Bristol) [Col. 65WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 17WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 223W]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 3MC]