BRITISH-IRISH INTER-PARLIAMENTARY BODY COMHLACHT IDIR-PHARLAIMINTEACH NA BREATAINE AGUS NA hÉIREANN THIRTY-FIRST PLENARY CONFERENCE 28 and 29 November 2005 Dalmahoy Hotel and Country Club, Edinburgh OFFICIAL REPORT (Final Revised Edition) (Produced by the British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association) This report has been produced by the British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association. Any queries should be addressed to: The Editor Room 248 Parliament Buildings Stormont Belfast BT4 3XX Tel: 028 90521135 e-mail [email protected] IN ATTENDANCE CO-CHAIRMEN Mr Pat Carey TD Rt Hon Paul Murphy MP MEMBERS AND ASSOCIATE MEMBERS Mr John Austin MP Mr Paul Flynn MP Mr Andrew Mackinlay MP The Baroness Blood Mr Mike German AM Senator Martin Mansergh Mr Johnny Brady TD Mr Jim Glennon TD Rt Hon Michael Mates MP The Lord Brooke The Lord Gordon Senator Paschal Mooney Mr Tony Brown SHK Baroness Goudie Mr Arthur Morgan TD Mr John Carty TD MrDominicGrieveMP Mr Jim O’Keeffe TD Senator Paul Coghlan Mr John Griffiths AM Mr Séamus Pattison TD Mr Seymour Crawford TD Mr Robin Harper MSP Mr Chris Ruane MP Senator John Dardis Senator Brian Hayes Senator Brendan Ryan Dr Jimmy Devins TD Ms Cecilia Keaveney TD Mr Joe Sherlock TD Mr Jim Dobbin MP Mr Séamus Kirk TD Mr Iain Smith MSP Senator Maurice Dubras Ms Julie Kirkbride MP The Lord Smith The Lord Dubs Senator Terry Leyden Deputy Mike Torode Mr Mark Durkan MP Dr Dai Lloyd AM Mr Murray Tosh MSP Mr John Ellis TD Mr David McLetchie MSP Mr Robert Walter MP Mr Damien English TD Mr Michael McMahon MSP Senator Diarmuid Wilson Mr Jeff Ennis MP Rt Hon Andrew Mackay MP ALSO IN ATTENDANCE (FOR ALL OR PART OF PROCEEDINGS) The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and Wales, the Rt Hon Peter Hain MP Professor Paul Bew (Queen’s University Belfast) Mr Stephen Kingon (PricewaterhouseCoopers) STEERING COMMITTEE Co-Chairmen Mr Pat Carey TD Rt Hon Paul Murphy MP Members Mr Tony Brown MHK Mr Seymour Crawford TD The Lord Dubs Mr Séamus Kirk TD Mr Dai Lloyd AM Rt Hon Michael Mates MP Mr Murray Tosh MSP OFFICIALS Joint Clerks Ms Alda Barry, British Clerk Mr John Hamilton, Irish Clerk Delegation Clerks Ms Alison Dickie Mr Peter Kellam Committee Clerks to the Body Committee A: Sovereign Matters Ms Dearbhla Doyle Mr Huw Yardley Committee B: European Affairs Mr Mike Clark Ms Elaine Hollowed Committee C: Economic Ms Dearbhla Doyle Mr Michael Hennessy Committee D: Environmental and Social Ms Elaine Hollowed Ms Audrey Nelson Secretariat Mrs Veronica Carr Sir Michael Davies KCB Mrs Amanda Healy Miss Priscilla Hungerford Media Adviser Mr Mike Burns British-Irish Parliamentary Ms Janet Foster Reporting Association reporting team Mr Ross Gunby for 31st Plenary Meeting Ms Glenice Hoffmann Ms Olive Murphy Ms Sian Richards Ms Aoibhinn Treanor BRITISH-IRISH In accordance with Rule 2(a), the following Associate Members have accepted the invitation of the Steering INTER-PARLIAMENTARY Committee to assume the powers and responsibility of BODY Members for this session: from Ireland, Senator Paul Coghlan, Senator John Dardis and Senator Terry Leyden; from the United Kingdom, Mr John Austin MP, Mr Jim Dobbin MP, Mr Mark Durkan MP, Lord Gordon and Ms Julie Kirkbride MP; and from Scotland, Mr Robin COMHLACHT Harper MSP and Mr Michael McMahon MSP. IDIR-PHARLAIMINTEACH Before the session resumes after lunch, there will be NA BREATAINE AGUS a group photograph at 2.00 pm. The location for the photograph will depend on the weather at that time. As NA hÉIREANN soon as we know what the weather is like, we will let you know where the photograph will be taken. Members will have received a copy of the proposed THIRTY-FIRST PLENARY order of business. Before I move that, I want to thank CONFERENCE the British-Irish secretariat for all the work that they have put into this splendid and very Christmassy venue. Thanks also to our hosts from the Scottish Parliament; we will have another opportunity to thank them at the formal dinner this evening. Monday 27 November 2005 I am pleased to be chairing this session with Pat Carey TD. I also wish to remind Members of the singular The Body met at 9.35 am. importance of the Body. Many years ago, I chaired the negotiations on strand three of the Good Friday Agreement with Liz O’Donnell TD. At that time, people believed — and I think that it still is the case — that strand three PLENARY BUSINESS was a very important part of the agreement. It is important that we try to encourage a Unionist presence on the Body — and that is particularly significant as I The Co-Chairman (Rt Hon Paul Murphy MP): The look round. Talks are ongoing with the parties, and I Body is now in public session. Before we start, I have hope that they will be able to become Members because a few formal announcements. First, I would like everyone there is a great gap in the Body’s proceedings. present to turn off their mobile phones while they are in the room. Secondly — and much more importantly Another point that will become evident in the next — Members are reminded that the proceedings of the couple of days is the important work of the Body’s Body do not attract parliamentary privilege. Committees, which mirrors the significance of the Body as a whole. It also mirrors the significance of the Since the last plenary meeting of the Body, there enormous changes in British-Irish relations over the have been a number of changes in the United Kingdom past five to 10 years. In the years that I have been membership due to the general election. The new full involved in British-Irish affairs, I have been struck by UK Members of the Body are: Mr Paul Flynn MP, Mr the remarkably good relationship between the United Dominic Grieve MP, Ms Meg Hillier MP, Mr Eddie Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland at governmental McGrady MP, myself, Mr Lembit Öpik MP, Mr John and, importantly, parliamentary level. Robertson MP, Baroness Blood and Baroness Goudie. The new Associate Members are Mr Dave Anderson Members will have an opportunity later to consider MP, Mr John Austin MP, Mr Tony Baldry MP, Mr Joe the general political progress in Northern Ireland and the Benton MP, Mr Jim Dobbin MP, Mr Mark Durkan MP, importance of the announcement made earlier this year Mr Roger Godsiff MP, Mr Albert Owen MP, Mr Jim that decommissioning had taken place. We await with Sheridan MP, the Lord Donoghue and the Lord Gordon interest the next report of the Independent Monitoring of Strathblane. Commission (IMC), but all of us look forward to the restoration of the institutions of Government in Northern From the States of Jersey, Deputy Maurice Dubras Ireland. Direct rule makes it hugely difficult to deal with replaces Senator Terence Le Sueur as a full Member. I the issue of the democratic deficit in Northern Ireland, have been chosen as United Kingdom co-chairman, and the sooner that the Assembly and the Executive and Lord Dubs has been chosen as a United Kingdom are up and running the better. It strikes me that the vice co-chairman. business of governing together in Northern Ireland — 1 Monday 27 November 2005 Plenary business Nationalist, Unionist, and those who are not aligned Office put pressure on the Steering Committee not to with either — makes an enormous difference, and is at the meet in Belfast. Various reasons were given. First, as I heart of the Good Friday Agreement. Members will understand, it was because meeting in Belfast would upset have an opportunity today to talk and listen to Peter the Unionists. However, I had several discussions with Hain, but I know that he agrees with me that the Unionists who said that they would welcome it. I have number one priority is to ensure that the institutions had discussions with DUP Members, and I agree with are restored. However, that can only be done if there is the Co-Chairman that they are very close to joining an end to criminality; I think that we are getting there, this Body. and hopefully it will happen. I then heard that it was connected with whether the All people in Northern Ireland — in fact, all people Northern Ireland Grand Committee met in the North; in these islands — look forward to a time when the the outcome being that if the Northern Ireland Office institutions are restored. We hope that there will be conceded to this Body meeting in Northern Ireland, progress by the time we next meet. then it would have difficulty not conceding to the Who knows — the Assembly and Executive might Northern Ireland Grand Committee. be up and running by then. The fundamental point is that this is an inter- Mr Andrew Mackinlay MP: I apologise for causing parliamentary body, not an inter-governmental body. aggravation so early in the proceedings; but that will As an inter-parliamentary body, its role is to question not stop me. After the last plenary session, many the actions of Governments on both sides of the border. Members were under the impression that, at last, a As such, we should assert our independence and instruct plenary would be held in Northern Ireland. That is a the Steering Committee to arrange for the next UK matter of fact. home match to be in the North. We are never told the reasons why we do not go to Rt Hon Michael Mates MP: I can understand people’s Northern Ireland.