Seanad Éireann

Vol. 230 Wednesday, No. 8 12 March 2014

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Insert Date Here

12/03/2014A00100Business of Seanad �� 2

12/03/2014A00400Order of Business �� 368

12/03/2014K00050Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge: Statements �� 385

12/03/2014R00100Energy Policy: Motion�� 398

12/03/2014EE00800Adjournment Matters 432

12/03/2014EE00850Building Regulations Amendments �� 432

12/03/2014FF00250Small and Medium Enterprises Supports �� 434 SEANAD ÉIREANN

Dé Céadaoin, 12 Márta 2014

Wednesday, 12 March 2014

Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m.

Machnamh agus Paidir. Reflection and Prayer.

12/03/2014A00100Business of Seanad

12/03/2014A00200An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Kathryn Reilly that, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, she proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to discuss the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014 and if amendments will be made to include architectural technologists in the regulations.

I have also received notice from Senator Tom Sheahan of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to provide grant aid for replanting of forestry damaged by the recent storms.

I have also received notice from Senator Lorraine Higgins of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Finance to devise a policy wherein the Central Bank grants a banking licence to a new SME-focused bank.

I have also received notice from Senator Darragh O’Brien of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to provide a school warden and a fully accessible crossing point at Skerries Educate Together primary school.

I regard the matters raised by Senators Kathryn Reilly, Tom Sheahan and Lorraine Higgins as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and they will be taken at the conclusion of business. I regret that I have had to rule out of order the matter raised by Senator Darragh O’Brien as the Minister has no official responsibility in the matter.

12/03/2014A00300Senator Darragh O’Brien: Is it because of what happened yesterday?

2 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014A00400Order of Business

12/03/2014A00500Senator Maurice Cummins: The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the 2020 Strategy for the Irish Language, in a change to the original schedule, to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and conclude not later than 1 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister of State to be called on to reply not later than 12.50 p.m.; and No. 43, Private Members’ business, motion No. 9, motion re energy policy, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and conclude not later than 4.30 p.m.

12/03/2014B00100Senator Darragh O’Brien: I will try to behave myself today. I will retable that Adjourn- ment matter following the break.

I refer to the need for a debate on the health service plan. I have raised a few instances of what is happening in the health service, as have many other colleagues. Last week the case of a seven year old with infantile scoliosos who had lost her medical card was brought to my attention. She is not entitled to a GP card and the HSE will not even pay for the back brace that she needs. That is what is happening on the ground. I respectfully ask the Leader again to do his best to get the Minister for Health into the House to outline what is happening in the health service and how services will be delivered this year and, in particular, to discuss the effects of the decisions being made on people such as this seven year old girl. She has lost her medical card, but her family cannot afford to pay for the brace that she needs. Her father had to pay €1,500 on his credit card for her. None of us wants to see this happen and I am certain none of the Government Members wants to see it either. However, the House is not sitting tomorrow. If the Minister was willing to do so, he would have come to the House before now. I, therefore, propose an amendment to the Order of Business, “That the Minister for Health come to the House to discuss the issue of medical card provision, particularly for children and those with long-term and serious illnesses.” Thousands of medical cards have been withdrawn.

Does the Leader agree that it is unhelpful for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to try to undermine the work of the Committee of Public Accounts? All of us agree that Mr. Frank Flannery has many questions to answer and that the committee is the forum for him to do this and put his case. It is welcome that the Taoiseach and other members of the Government support the call that Mr. Flannery appear before the committee, but the Minister has stated the Chairman of the committee is acting politically-----

12/03/2014B00200Senator Paul Coghlan: That was based on a radio broadcast.

12/03/2014B00300Senator Darragh O’Brien: Do Government colleagues agree that Mr. Flannery has questions to answer about his role as a lobbyist while working for Fine Gael as a strategist and in lobbying Fine Gael and Labour Party Ministers?

12/03/2014B00400Senator Paul Coghlan: That should be left to the Committee of Public Accounts. We do not need to discuss the issue here.

12/03/2014B00500Senator Darragh O’Brien: Earlier we found out that he was being paid €60,000 a year as a retainer by Philanthropy Ireland to lobby the Government while working as the main man in the main Government party. Does the Leader believe he should appear before the Committee of Public Accounts and answer questions? The Chairman of the committee simply asked again that Mr. Flannery present himself to it. He or any other Chairman of the committee would be

368 12 March 2014 remiss not to do this. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has tried to undermine the work of the committee and muddy the waters by accusing an excellent Chairman who has shown himself to be independent and impartial, like the previous Chair- man, former Deputy Bernard Allen. All those who served as Chairman of the committee were beyond reproach and took their job seriously. Does the Leader agree with the Minister that the Chairman of the committee is acting politically? Will he reaffirm the view that Mr. Flannery has questions to answer at the committee and should present himself to it?

12/03/2014B00600Senator Susan O’Keeffe: I pay tribute to Christine Buckley whose death was announced yesterday for her courage and strength in raising the difficult issue of the abuse of children in State institutions. She fought her fight with dignity until the end. Our thoughts are with her family at this difficult time.

I welcome the Garda Inspectorate’s reform proposals, about which I hope we will hear more later. It is reported that the penalty points system will be centralised and subject to regular audit. Anybody seeking to terminate penalty points will have do so in a clear and transparent way, which is welcome.

I welcome Mr. Frank Flannery’s decision to resign from the various posts he held, including the chairmanship of the Forum on Philanthropy. He should appear before the Committee on Public Accounts, not least to answer questions about his board membership of TBG Learn- ing and National Learning Network. He appears to have been a member of both boards which provide substantial training, which National Learning Network provides though SOLAS, the HSE and the Department of Social Protection. He was paid by TBG Learning through his own company, Laragh Consulting. There are wheels within wheels. Well done to him for resigning from these positions, but he should appear before the Committee of Public Accounts as soon as possible.

I seek a debate on the issue of inter-country adoption, a subject that has come up again and again. Rosita Boland wrote a personal account of her difficulties in this regard in last Satur- day’s edition of The Irish Times. Only 11 children were adopted under the post-Hague declaration between 2011 and 2013. Clearly, there is a problem. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to come to the House to discuss this issue? I acknowledge that she was in the House recently to take an Adjournment matter, but we should address this issue and have a debate with her on a system that clearly is clearly if there have only been 11 such adoptions in three years. It is causing considerable stress and heartache for the families concerned.

12/03/2014B00700Senator Sean D. Barrett: I note Senator Susan O’Keeffe’s comments on penalty points. Will the Minister for Justice and Equality come to the House to debate the material that is coming to light, including the report that will be published later and the work of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Garda Inspectorate? The problem the House highlighted, with which the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport agreed, was the categorisation of penalty points attributed to no licence. That seems to have been due to people, advisedly or otherwise, not bringing their licences with them to court which resulted in the penalty points not being applied to them. In 2012 approximately 40% of motorists avoided penalty points through this loophole. Between 2010 and 2012 a total of 84,000 people claimed they had no licence to ensure penalty points would not be applied. The number of penalty point offences increased from 235,000 to 319,000 during that period. We, therefore, need to close that loophole. When the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport was in the House, he said this desperately needed to be done and that he was open to ideas. The fact that 84,000 motorists avoided penalty points in this way 369 Seanad Éireann over two years and that almost 40% of drivers used this loophole to escape in 2012 means that all those interested in road safety should not allow it to remain for one minute longer.

12/03/2014B00800Senator Paul Coghlan: We should leave matters that are properly dealt with by the Com- mittee of Public Accounts to the committee and anyone called to appear before it should attend. We are all agreed on that point. I have not read the reports.

12/03/2014B00900Senator Darragh O’Brien: I was more worried about the Senator and Senator Marie- Louise O’Donnell.

12/03/2014B01000Senator Paul Coghlan: As regards the comments made by others referred to by Senator Darragh O’Brien, we should desist from playing the man and not the ball and bringing others into it.

12/03/2014B01100Senator David Norris: Will the Senator say that to the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Garda Commissioner?

12/03/2014B01200Senator Paul Coghlan: I was not talking about that Minister. I have not read the comments to which Senator Darragh O’Brien refers.

I welcome yesterday’s announcement by the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, of a two year home building initiative, under which €68 million will be spent nationwide on new social housing. That is a most important initiative, given the demand for such housing. Increasing supply is a key priority for the Government which it intends to address. The initiative is greatly welcome. The Government is providing 5,000 new social housing units per annum through a variety of means, including leasing and securing NAMA units. All of that work is to be greatly welcomed and I wish the Minister of State the very best with it. I am delighted to read this morning about the allocations she has made to the various local authorities throughout the country.

12/03/2014C00200Senator Mary M. White: What about what the Fine Gael did to Mr. Flannery?

12/03/2014C00300Senator Paul Coghlan: I am talking about social housing.

12/03/2014C00400Senator Denis O’Donovan: I second the amendment proposed to the Order of Business by my colleague, Senator Darragh O’Brien.

12/03/2014C00500Senator Paul Coghlan: I am not familiar with it.

12/03/2014C00600Senator Denis O’Donovan: I am deeply concerned about a Dutch super trawler which is six times longer than this room which is approximately 24 m long; it is one of the biggest super trawlers ever to fish in Irish waters and concerns about it have been raised nationally and elsewhere in Europe. A former Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, SFPA, officer is deeply concerned about the damage it can do to Irish stock. Conservation groups are also concerned about the damage it can do to whale and dolphin numbers because it can hoover everything up. I question its entitlement to fish in Irish waters. Apparently, it has a certain quota as a result of swapping a quota with Lithuania. It is grossly unfair, at a time when our fishermen have been starved of a quota, that a quota swap with Lithuania enables a super-trawler which was ban- ished from Australian waters because of the damage it had done to fish in our waters. I sometimes preach ad nauseam about the difficulties facing Irish inshore fishermen. Will the Leader convey my deep concerns to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and ask him to send a naval officer, with a SFPA officer to board the vessel, as such officers are entitled to 370 12 March 2014 do under the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act 2006, to monitor what is happening? This is critical to give some level of comfort to hard-pressed Irish fishermen who have little, if any, quota. It is a factory ship on which fish is chopped up, frozen or canned and the vessel can hoover up more fish in one week than the entire whitefish fleet in an area stretching from Rosaveel to Castletownbeare and Dunmore East and beyond. Such vessels should be banned outright. The sooner we get this vessel out of Irish waters the happier I will be.

12/03/2014C00700Senator Aideen Hayden: I welcome the news that AIB has written €150,000 off the loan on a family home of €400,000 for a family of four, which enables it to stay in it. The deal was negotiated by the Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation. This is a very positive step in dealing with the issue of mortgage arrears. This type of service should, however, be available to all borrowers, not just those whose loans are with AIB or the EBS, and should be funded by the whole banking industry.

FLAC, Free Legal Aid Centres, has published a report entitled, Redressing the Imbalance, and one of its important recommendations is that the code of conduct on mortgage arrears has some serious deficiencies. The report raises very serious concerns about the Financial Ser- vices Ombudsman. It states that, although the Financial Services Ombudsman “will examine a failure by a lender to adhere to process, it feels unable to overturn the commercial decisions of lenders to declare a mortgage unsustainable or to offer what a borrower may believe is an unsuitable alternative repayment arrangement. These gaps in normal fair procedure rules leave consumers in mortgage arrears seriously exposed to the potential loss of their family homes in circumstances where such loss may not necessarily be objectively justified; hence it is a matter which requires the urgent attention not just of the Central Bank...”. The Minister for Finance has said several times that it is not within his remit, but FLAC recommends that the Oireachtas objectively review the legislation establishing the Financial Services Ombudsman. Will the Leader as a matter of urgency bring this issue to the attention of the Government and arrange for the House to review the legislation which is not fit for purpose in defending mortgage holders?

12/03/2014C00800Senator David Norris: It has never been my practice to call for heads because that is far too easy a political manoeuvre, but it is clear that it is time for the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to go, for the moral welfare and decency of political standards in this country. The Garda Commissioner described the two whistleblow- ers who have been completely vindicated as “disgusting” in their actions in the public forum of the Committee on Public Accounts. That was an outrageous thing for him to say. The former confidential recipient was heard on tape saying if one went against Shatter, “he will screw you.” We know that is true, as he released confidential information on “The Late Late Show”. Any- body who dared to speak the truth to power had a load of slurry dumped over him or her by that Minister. This is simply not acceptable. We cannot have this kind of corrupt government and it is particularly inappropriate for a Minister of Justice and Equality. The Minister is a clever man and, in many ways, a very good, reforming Minister and I pay tribute to these talents, but he is not an honourable man and someone who is not honourable should not be Minister for Justice. There are good people in every party, as I said when Fianna Fáil was on its knees. I say it now to my colleagues on the Government side. There is damn all difference between Fine Gael as a party and in government and Fianna Fáil at its worst.

12/03/2014C00900Senator Tom Sheahan: On a point of order, it is totally inappropriate for a Member to cast a slur on a Minister who is not here to defend himself. Senator David Norris should have a little courage and do it when the Minister is in attendance.

371 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014C01000An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should resume his seat.

12/03/2014C01100Senator David Norris: Bring him in and I will be delighted to do it. I have no problem with it.

12/03/2014C01200Senator Tom Sheahan: The Senator should not pontificate when the man is not here. He is absent.

12/03/2014C01300An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should resume his seat.

12/03/2014C01400Senator David Norris: I am perfectly entitled to make a political charge against a Minister who has been-----

12/03/2014C01500Senator Tom Sheahan: It is a political charge-----

12/03/2014C01600An Cathaoirleach: Will Senator Tom Sheahan, please, resume his seat? Does Senator Nor- ris have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2014C01700Senator David Norris: No; I do not have to have a question for the Leader. We discussed this issue yesterday. I have a few answers for the Leader, if the Cathaoirleach would like to hear them. We had a good example yesterday, with the clear indication that the Government did not have the slightest intention of reforming the House. It will tinker with the university panels in a most dishonest way. There will be 800,000 people electing six Members; 1,000 in the corrupt and rotten boroughs of the councils electing 43, while the Taoiseach will elect 11 on his own.

12/03/2014C01800An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2014C01900Senator David Norris: No, I do not have a question for him.

12/03/2014C02000An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is over time.

12/03/2014C02100Senator David Norris: I have a statement for the Leader and the House. This is in the tradition of the House and I have been here longer than the Cathaoirleach.

12/03/2014C02200An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is over time.

12/03/2014C02300Senator David Norris: It was perfectly clear yesterday that the Government was not going to do this, but we must insist on this House being totally reformed. It would be quite easy to do it, but it is against the selfish political interests of a corrupt Government.

12/03/2014C02400Senator Paschal Mooney: On a point of order, I hope Senator David Norris did not mean to cast a slur on the integrity of the elected members of local authorities.

12/03/2014C02500Senator Mary M. White: I second that.

12/03/2014C02600Senator David Norris: Of course, I did not. The system is corrupt and one cannot blame people for operating it.

12/03/2014C02700Senator Michael Comiskey: I share Senator Denis O’Donovan’s concerns about fisheries and the large boat fishing off the coast. Small fishermen who have difficulty surviving and making a living contact us regularly. They are very worried when such large boats hoover up all of the fish. If there is anything we can do about this, we should.

I welcome the moneys made available by the Minister of State at the Department of Pub- 372 12 March 2014 lic Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brian Hayes, and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, to repair the damage done around the coast by the recent storms. I visited several farmers in north Sligo on Monday evening and saw the horrific damage done to farmland, some of which had been washed away. According to newspaper reports, 250 acres in total have been lost to the sea. There has also been serious damage caused to fences.

11 o’clock

Would it be possible to get compensation for those farmers to help repair the fences and put the land back into productive use? It is welcome that it was clarified at an agriculture meeting last week that no penalties will arise for those farmers and they can consolidate their payments on the single farm payment and disadvantaged area payment. Much damage has been done. I visited a number of farms and would like to get compensation for those affected if that is possible.

12/03/2014D00200Senator David Cullinane: I agree with Senator Darragh O’Brien’s call for the Minister for Health to come to the House for a debate on many issues relating to the health service. We have still not had a proper debate on the national HSE service plan and the impact it will have on acute hospitals and primary care services across the State. The funding cuts which were put in place in the budget are only now being felt by hospitals and in the health service generally. One symptom of the problem concerns medical cards. Every day, Government and Opposition Members deal with the many people with discretionary medical cards who are losing them. Those concerned have very serious illnesses and they are traumatised by the fact that they may lose their medical card. In many cases they have received correspondence or were told on the telephone that their medical card was gone but they must wait weeks before they get written confirmation at which point they can appeal the decision. People are left in an awful position. The situation with medical cards is a mess and it is causing real trauma for those who have cards or those who need them. We need to have a discussion with the Minister for Health on the impact the budget cuts will have mainly on acute hospitals. The Leader might be aware that I held a public meeting last week in Waterford city on health care. A number of health care professionals, including a consultant who works in Waterford Regional Hospital and a GP who is based in Waterford, talked about their experience of the cutbacks in the health service and the impact they are having on patient care and the ability of the hospital to be able to provide the level of service the people in Waterford and the south-east region need. Health care is important to all of us. I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Health to come into the House as soon as possible to have such a debate.

12/03/2014D00300Senator Hildegarde Naughton: It is opportune in the light of the recent flooding and storm damage that the Seanad should debate insurance cover. We are all aware from interac- tion with people on a daily basis that significant issues remain in terms of the impossibility of insuring homes and businesses which were affected by flooding. The insurance federation estimates that 2% - 40,000 to 50,000 homes and businesses - have flood exclusion provisions in their policies. Such exclusion is often as a result of homes being built in locations where they should never have been built. The perennial issue of one-off housing or developments being built on flood plains is one of which this House should not lose sight. The Taoiseach recently stated that building on flood plains is a thing of the past and the previous Government’s inaction or culpability on the issue would not recur. I wholeheartedly agree with this.

While historical issues remain, there is a multiplicity of issues with housing developed in recent years. It would seem that there is some disconnect between the Government and the 373 Seanad Éireann insurance industry in that regard. The Government has quickly moved to provide moneys for remedial work in light of recent damage. That is to be commended. The insurance industry generally has issues with the standard of work that is carried out to rectify the problems in the short term and it is not particularly involved in investment in future proofing flood defences. I am told that in a lot of cases the remedial work carried out is not acceptable to insurers and does not allow for a level of risk insurance in affected areas.

12/03/2014D00400An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

12/03/2014D00500Senator Darragh O’Brien: The IBA put together a good document.

12/03/2014D00600Senator Hildegarde Naughton: There is a need for joined-up thinking in this area and there is also a need for a forum where present needs, future works and insurance risks could be discussed and matters resolved to benefit the population as a whole. I hope the Leader will facilitate such a debate.

12/03/2014D00800Senator Terry Leyden: I hope the Seanad will join me in wishing the Irish diaspora a very happy St. Patrick’s Day. I am delighted that Ministers are travelling abroad, as I did in the past, to visit countries and spread the good word about Ireland. I hope they enjoy themselves as well. It is tough work.

12/03/2014D00900Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator was a trail-blazer in his day.

12/03/2014D01000Senator Terry Leyden: There is no doubt it is a tough job. St. Patrick’s Day is very important and it is building up to being an extremely important day from a sales and marketing point of view for this country, which is why it is important that we send our wishes from the Seanad. I hope the Leader will add to this when he speaks. The new revitalised Seanad Éireann, having survived its abolition by the Taoiseach last year, sends its best wishes to the diaspora throughout the world and wishes it well. I hope that in time people who are abroad will be appointed by the Taoiseach to sit in this House to represent those abroad who have been forced out of this country through emigration.

It is also very disappointing that the United States of America has not appointed an ambassador as yet. I hope an appointment will be made by next Monday. Quite frankly, it is very insulting. We need an ambassador in the United States of America. There is no point in with- drawing our ambassador but it is a shame.

I compliment the work of Senators Mark Daly, Paschal Mooney and others who have been working with the 40 million Diaspora in the United States of America. Next Monday is a very important day. It is a day for celebration, enjoyment and fun. I hope you, a Chathaoirligh, will have a nice time in Castlebar.

12/03/2014D01600An Cathaoirleach: I will be in Croke Park with Castlebar Mitchels.

12/03/2014D01700Senator Terry Leyden: Excellent. I wish you success and hope you pull it off.

12/03/2014D01800Senator Darragh O’Brien: Do not hold out much hope.

12/03/2014D01900Senator Terry Leyden: I have a mini-vested interest in this particular regard. There is so much red tape. Ireland is renowned for dancing - dancing at the crossroads, the comely maidens and athletic young men. Senator David Norris probably gave the details of Éamon De Valera’s famous speech. The reality is that one cannot dance at the crossroads unless one has a 374 12 March 2014 licence. One has to apply for a licence to the courts in order to hold a dance. Give me a break in this day and age. If one is in contravention one will be fined £5 and one’s licence might be revoked. The Army and An Garda Síochána - the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter’s people - are exempt from having a licence. The Minister can dance all night when he wants.

12/03/2014D02000Senator Maurice Cummins: The Senator could go to the Dáil bar instead.

12/03/2014D02100Senator Terry Leyden: The law does not apply to public dancing in the recreation room managed or conducted under the authority of the Minister for Defence or the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána.

12/03/2014D02200An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

12/03/2014D02250Senator Terry Leyden: The Commissioner can have a dance up in the Phoenix Park-----

12/03/2014D02300Senator Paul Coghlan: Is it in Rossport?

12/03/2014D02400Senator Terry Leyden: -----and he does not require a licence, but if we have a little dance in a public house in the west or at a crossroads, we have to have one.

12/03/2014D02500An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking an exemption?

12/03/2014D02600Senator Terry Leyden: No. The Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ring, is the most practical person in the Government. He has been responsible for The Gathering.

12/03/2014D02700An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is way over time.

12/03/2014D02800Senator Terry Leyden: I hope the Minister of State will bring about a situation where he will get rid of this rubbish. This is Ireland. In Spain or elsewhere one can dance where one wants to dance in any pub or anywhere else without having a stupid licence.

12/03/2014D02900Senator Tom Sheahan: I sense a Michael Flatley moment coming on.

12/03/2014D03200Senator Terry Leyden: It is ridiculous one has to go to a District Court and advertise for dancing in Ireland. This country is renowned throughout the world as a country where we welcome dancing. I hope I have got the message across. Good luck to everybody on St. Patrick’s Day.

12/03/2014D03300Senator Tom Sheahan: I ask the Leader to arrange to have the Minister for Social Protec- tion come to the House if that is possible. A case was highlighted to me recently about those who are unemployed who had worked in the construction industry. They have a safe pass certificate and if it is due to expire the Department does not pay for it to be renewed. People are being told by the social welfare office that if they get work then the Department will pay for the renewal of the safe pass certificate. I met several people who told me they are registered with agencies in order to get employment, but the first thing employers want is someone with a safe pass certificate. It is a case of the cart coming before the horse. The approach I suggest is more practical. I call on the Minister to resolve the difficulty. The situation is dependent on whom one meets in a social welfare office. I urge that the safe pass certificate would be made available to people who were in the construction industry who are now looking for work and that the cost would be covered by the Department because when one is on social welfare the cost of the certificate makes it unfeasible to renew it.

12/03/2014D03400Senator Paul Bradford: I ask the Leader to inquire about the workings of a new European 375 Seanad Éireann health directive called the cross-border health care directive. It appears that Irish citizens will be eligible under new terms and conditions to access health care abroad and to have such health care paid for by the HSE. Will the Leader raise this issue with the HSE and the Minister for Health? This is in the context of a young gentleman from Dublin who is currently in Germany accessing health care. I do not know the young man myself or his family, but the case was brought to my attention by a staff colleague in the Oireachtas, Mr. Noel Rock. The young man suffers with a severe brain injury and the treatment required is only available for three patients in Ireland, in Dún Laoghaire. The young man is now in Germany and undergoing treatment there, but he and his family are very disappointed that he cannot get treatment in Dublin due to a lack of resources. Will the Leader check whether it is possible he can get some assistance under the cross-border health care directive? This is not the treatment abroad scheme, but a new scheme that has been debated and approved by the European Commission recently.

I agree with all those who spoke in regard to the future work of the Committee of Public Ac- counts and hope and expect Mr. Flannery will come before and co-operate with the committee. Notwithstanding the harsh political climate in which we all now operate, it would be remiss of us not to acknowledge that during the years of service Mr. Flannery gave to Rehab, thousands of people benefited from the services provided by that group. It is appropriate and important to acknowledge this.

12/03/2014E00200Senator Michael Mullins: I join Senator Terry Leyden in extending our good wishes to the Irish throughout the world on St. Patrick’s Day weekend. This is the last sitting of the House before St. Patrick’s Day and it is appropriate that we wish Ministers embarking on the promotion of our country abroad all the best. Some 88 high level political meetings will take place, there will be 180 public diplomacy events and 70 focused industry events during the course of the next number of days.

I am also pleased that the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Department of the Taoiseach issued an instruction that there will be no first class flights taken, no use of limou- sines by people abroad on business and that Ministers will use embassy accommodation where available. It is appropriate during these difficult economic times that everybody consciously watches the cost of their visits abroad. At the same time, this is the one real opportunity we have in the year to showcase Ireland, promote business and, I hope, attract tourists to the country.

I join Senator Paul Coghlan in welcoming the announcement made yesterday by the Minis- ter of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, of the €68 million investment in local authority housing. I welcome in particular that €15 million of this will be made available to bring 500 local authority houses back into service. I have always been very critical of local authorities that have left houses idle for far too long, depriving people of a home. Those houses are often vandalised and are a source of antisocial behaviour. I very much welcome the announcement and hope local authorities take up their allocation quickly and bring these houses back into use as a matter of urgency, given the huge number of people on local authority waiting lists throughout the country.

12/03/2014E00300Senator Ned O’Sullivan: I was not in the Chamber yesterday, but I commend Senator Terry Leyden for the trenchant manner in which he raised the issue of the now infamous Trichet letter to Brian Lenihan on the eve of the bailout, which clearly precipitated that bailout, no matter which Government was in office at the time. The Ombudsman made it quite clear she saw no valid reason for continuing to keep this letter secret from the public. I believe there can be no bank inquiry of any sort without this letter coming into the public domain. I would also like 376 12 March 2014 to hear from the Governor of the Central Bank, Mr. Honohan, in regard to this matter. I would like to know what level of involvement he had with the original letter. Did he see it and was he part of it and did it in any way inform the statement he made regarding the troika coming into the country? That statement was greatly welcomed at the time by the media, but it is now being looked at differently. I wonder now how helpful his intervention was at the time.

I have raised the matter of the procedures for assessing those claiming social welfare benefits on medical grounds, such as invalidity pension, previously. A response to a question raised in the Dáil recently revealed that over 70% of refusals are successfully appealed. This is a very high success rate on appeal and one can only imagine that the original examination codes must be very stringent. What instructions do medical personnel receive from the Department regarding these examinations? I do not cast aspersions on their professionalism, but what are the criteria under which they operate when there is such a high level of refusal, yet such a high level of successful appeals? Recently, a constituent of mine had been two and a half years waiting before being successfully awarded a pension on appeal. He was a self-employed man who worked hard all his life and never took a shilling from the State. Anybody would know he was entitled to an invalidity pension, but for two and a half years he was dragged through every sort of delaying procedure imaginable, until finally, after what was described to me by a professional appeals agents two years of anguish, he was successful. This is not good enough. This delay was a false saving for the Government, because this individual and many like him will receive their full entitlement, backdated to the original application date. I call for the Minister to come to the House to outline exactly what is going on.

12/03/2014E00400Senator Colm Burke: Deputy Paul Bradford raised the issue of cross-border health care. As someone who was involved in this area at European level, I believe it is important the directive is transposed into Irish law. The directive has been passed for some time and the deadline for transposition into Irish law was October 2013. It is important the cross-border health care directive is transposed and I ask the Leader to urge the Minister to bring it forward. In the meantime, the treatment abroad fund should cover anyone who is unable to get a particular type of treatment here. That fund should provide the necessary support to someone who requires medical treatment. As someone who has benefited from cross-border health care, I am very much aware ofits importance. When people cannot get the health care they need here and it is available in another country, we should give them the financial support they require.

I also wish to the raise the issue of the HPAT exam for admission into medical schools. This is a disaster and there is significant controversy in regard to it in the press. There are serious issues with it and it is seen as another unnecessary expense imposed on parents and students. On the one hand, we have people sitting their leaving certificate exams, and on the other we now have them sitting the HPAT exam to get into medical school. If they do not pass the HPAT exam this year but pass it next year, does this mean they will be a better doctor? They will have stud- ied the technique of passing the test rather than devoted themselves to studying medicine. I call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Education and Skills for a debate in the House on this issue. The HPAT exam was imposed unnecessarily. We already have criteria established based on the leaving certificate results. Why, then do we need this additional exam? People are paying money to study the technique of getting through it. This is a cost and expense that has been imposed on them and I have serious concerns about it. It is time to review the issue and the reason for it. There is no such exam for any other degree course and it should be re-examined.

12/03/2014F00100Senator Sean D. Barrett: To add to what Senator Colm Burke has said, it was also designed with the intention of reducing the number of women entering medical school - another 377 Seanad Éireann shameful aspect.

12/03/2014F00200Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I join my colleagues in wishing the various Ministers and delegations travelling all over the world for St. Patrick’s Day the best of luck. I hope their trips will prove successful for the country.

On Monday I attended a public meeting organised by Monaghan Integrated Development Limited which was attended by over 250 people who were concerned about the future of independent local development companies and the Leader programme as a result of the passing of the Local Government Reform Bill, under which the Leader programme will be subsumed into the local community development committees of local authorities. The independent local development companies have been operating very successfully throughout the country and I am very familiar with the work they do in my county. A superb presentation was made by Monaghan Integrated Development Limited at the aforementioned meeting which showed the excellent work being carried out. In Cavan Breffni Integrated Development Limited does similar work. There is genuine concern that the work in which these companies are involved will be taken over by the local authorities and that, in many cases, it will be contracted out to for-profit organisations, thus depriving local communities of excellent services and programmes. We are all aware that the development committees are made up of volunteers from the community and voluntary sectors, representatives of various statutory agencies, as well as local elected representatives who have worked very well together. The system is working very well and I do not see a need to tinker with it. In that context, I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come to the House to discuss the issue before his proposals under the legislation come into effect. We must tease out all of these matters before a decision is taken. I know that the Minister is not a great man for engaging in consultation, but I plead with him to give this issue some time and tease it out fully before the sledgehammer falls.

I understand the Minister for Education and Science will be announcing details of the new schools building programme in the next few hours, if he has not done so already. I ask the Leader to determine whether the proposals for Dún Uí Neill Army barracks which were closed by the Government almost two years ago will be included in the Minister’s plans.

12/03/2014F00300Senator Martin Conway: I acknowledge the announcement this morning by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibility for the OPW, Deputy Brian Hayes, that an initial allocation of €19 million would be made available through his offices for flood defence works, following the damage caused in January and February this year. I am delighted that €8.7 million of the total will be made available to the people of County Clare, the shoreline of which was ravaged in the recent inclement weather. The money will go a significant way towards ensuring proper flood defence mechanisms are put in place on a long-term basis to ensure what we witnessed at the beginning of 2014 will not be seen again. The provision of this €8.7 million is a very important incremental step in protecting the coastline of County Clare. I welcome the allocation of this money, on top of the €17 million made available through the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government a couple of weeks ago. In total, we are looking at an investment of €25 million, about which the people of County Clare will be happy.

I concur with the comments of other speakers regarding St. Patrick’s Day and those who will travel around the world to promote Ireland. This is also a good time to reflect on the plight of the 50,000 undocumented Irish living and working illegally in the United States of America. 378 12 March 2014 There have been many false dawns for them, with various representatives in the United States making significant strides forward only to take a number of steps back. The Taoiseach is travelling to Washington and I have no doubt that he will avail of the opportunity during his meeting with President Obama to speak about the need for a solution to the problem of the undocumented Irish in the United States. I call on all public representatives travelling to the United States, whether in a private or an official capacity, to use the unique opportunity afforded by the St. Patrick’s Day celebrations to highlight the plight of the 50,000 undocumented Irish who cannot come home for funerals, weddings, christenings and so forth for fear of being deported. A family from my area who had been living and working in the Boston area for many years where they were well established were deported last year. I do not want to see any other Irish family who have made a home in the United States suffer the same fate. It is incumbent on us all to make an effort to support the 50,000 undocumented Irish in the United States and I hope we will soon see a pathway to their legalisation.

12/03/2014F00400Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I support the comments of my colleague, Senator Diarmuid Wilson, on the alignment process and the restructuring of Leader companies under the provisions of the recently passed Local Government Reform Bill which will have a negative effect and create more, not less, bureaucracy. I tabled a motion on the issue on the Adjournment last night and during the debate the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Govern- ment suggested it would reduce red tape and bureaucracy, but nothing could be further from the truth. There is a total lack of clarity. Funding is not available under the current Leader programme because it has all been spent. The Minister needs to roll up his sleeves to have this issue sorted out and allow projects that have applied for funding to receive it.

I refer to the proposed amendment to the Order of Business to discuss the HSE service plan. Before the last general election, Deputy James Reilly promised that if he became Minister for Health, he would roll out the BreastCheck programme to all women aged between 50 and 69 years. He has reneged on this promise for those women aged between 65 and 69 years. Under the HSE service plan for 2014, the BreastCheck service is not available to the women in question. It has been proved beyond doubt that the BreastCheck service saves lives, but the Gov- ernment, in an attempt to save euros, has rolled back on its promise. We must have a debate on this issue. I, therefore, support Senator Daragh O’Brien’s proposed amendment to the Order of Business in that regard.

The national parks play an important role in promoting our cultural heritage, history and tourist industry, but there is something very striking about the funding which goes to them. Of €1.184 million available this year 80% is going to Killarney National Park. I have nothing against that park, but-----

12/03/2014F00500Senator Paul Coghlan: It is bigger than all of the others put together.

12/03/2014F00600Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I am sure the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, knows Killarney National Park better than I do, but-----

12/03/2014F00700Senator Paul Coghlan: That would have nothing to do with it.

12/03/2014F00800Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: The volume of traffic through the other national parks is equal to that in Killarney, but they are only receiving 20% of the allocation.

12/03/2014F00900Senator Paul Coghlan: There are much smaller staff numbers in Glenveagh National Park.

379 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014F01100Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Perhaps the Leader might invite the Minister to come to the House to give us an explanation for why Killarney National Park is receiving €913,000 this year-----

12/03/2014F01200Senator Paul Coghlan: It is still not enough.

12/03/2014F01300Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: -----while Glenveagh National Park in my area is only receiving €142,000 and Connemara National Park, €13,000.

12/03/2014F01400An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is way over time.

12/03/2014F01500Senator Darragh O’Brien: That is a disgrace. The Minister should spread the money around.

12/03/2014F01600Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator is not comparing like with like.

12/03/2014F01700Senator John Gilroy: The House might be aware that I am rapporteur for the Joint Com- mittee on Health and Children on the issue of suicide prevention. For the last year I have been undertaking a series of public consultation meetings with members of the general public who have been affected by or are interested in the issue of suicide. Tomorrow morning I will be sub- mitting a discussion paper to the joint committee and a further round of consultations will include discussions with the National Suicide Research Foundation, the Central Statistics Office, the Coroners Society of Ireland and some of the voluntary organisations working in the area of suicide prevention. I intend to circulate a copy of the paper to Members because I value their opinions. However, I will hold off in doing so until I receive the responses of the voluntary organisations at tomorrow’s meeting. Will the Leader consider arranging a debate in the next few weeks on suicide prevention in the light of this paper? Every Member has a keen interest in the topic and I hope the Leader can organise at least a two hour debate on it in the coming weeks.

12/03/2014G00200Senator Mary M. White: It is my pleasure to be associated with the good wishes to the Irish Diaspora. It is a tragedy for Ireland that so many young people are still emigrating every week. As my party’s spokesperson on employment, it is my pleasure that the company I co- founded and on the board of which I still sit, Lir Chocolates, won first prize for its Tesco Fin- est Easter egg and second prize for its Marks & Spencer Easter egg, beating 200 companies in Ireland and the United Kingdom.

12/03/2014G00300Senator David Norris: Bravo; eggstraordinary.

12/03/2014G00400Senator Mary M. White: The reason I started Lir Chocolates was to create employment, which is still my passion. I congratulate the company on creating more jobs in Navan, County Meath.

A Chathaoirligh, I am very appreciative of your patience in the past 12 months. This is only the third day since November 2012 on which my health has been restored.

12/03/2014G00600An Cathaoirleach: My chocolates for Christmas were delicious.

12/03/2014G00700Senator David Norris: There is one for everyone in the audience.

12/03/2014G00800Senator Maurice Cummins: Obviously, the Cathaoirleach got chocolates that many of us did not get.

12/03/2014G00900Senator Mary M. White: The Leader deserves them, too. 380 12 March 2014

12/03/2014G01000Senator Maurice Cummins: I assume there will be an Easter egg for everyone in the audience.

Senators Darragh O’Brien and David Cullinane called for a debate on the health service plan. I will try to get the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, to attend the House to discuss that matter. The number of people with access to free medical care is the highest in the history of the State. Up to 43% of the people have access to care.

12/03/2014G01100Senator Darragh O’Brien: There is a difference between medical care and medical cards.

12/03/2014G01200Senator Maurice Cummins: If the Senator allows me to finish, I will give him the information.

12/03/2014G01300Senator Darragh O’Brien: I know what it is like on the ground.

12/03/2014G01400Senator Maurice Cummins: The Senator tends not to let other Members finish their points. Up to 43% of the population, 1,988,321, had access to free GP care at the end of 2013. A total of 1,863,984 people had full medical cards, while a further 124,337 had GP visit cards. In 2013 the Health Service Executive awarded an extra 100,000 medical cards, of which over 23,000 were on a discretionary basis. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Senator Darragh O’Brien.

12/03/2014G01500Senator David Norris: We are not allowed to smoke in the House.

12/03/2014G01600Senator Terry Leyden: We cannot smoke here.

12/03/2014G01700Senator Susan O’Keeffe: Let them eat chocolate.

12/03/2014G01800Senator Maurice Cummins: Of course, smoking is not allowed in the House.

I have no intention on commenting on the spats between the two Deputies in Carlow and Kilkenny. The Taoiseach has stated Mr. Frank Flannery should give evidence before the Com- mittee of Public Accounts, with which I agree.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe raised the matter of inter-country adoptions. The Minister for Chil- dren and Youth Affairs introduced emergency legislation before Christmas to deal with Russian adoptions. I will ask her to address again the problem raised by the Senator.

Senator Sean D. Barrett referred to the anomalies in the penalty points system, an issue which he also raised with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, in the House. On 14 May last the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, referred to the Garda Inspectorate the O’Mahony report and the Garda professional standards unit’s report on the fixed charge notice issue. He provided for the inspectorate seven principles which he believed should inform the operation of the fixed charge processing system: there should be no question mark hanging over the integrity of the system and the application of penalty points; no individual should receive preferential treatment because of his or her perceived status, relationship or celebrity status; the law and any discretionary application must be administered fairly with compassion and common sense; no member of the Garda force should feel compelled by a person’s position, relationship or celebrity status to treat that person any more or less favour- ably than any other; there must be proper oversight of and transparency in the discretionary decision-making process and the applicable rules and procedures must be fully complied with; all statutory provisions, regulations, rules, protocols and procedures applicable to the termination of fixed charge notices must be readily available to all members of the Garda force and 381 Seanad Éireann the circumstances, factors and procedures applicable to the termination of fixed charge notices should be detailed clearly on the Garda website for the information of members of the public; where application is made to terminate a fixed charge ticket, where possible and appropriate, material to support any application made should be sought, while understanding in some circumstances there may be no such material or such material may not be obtainable. That is how above board the Minister for Justice and Equality has been on the issue of the penalty points system. Everyone will support the seven points he raised with the Garda Inspectorate.

I totally reject Senator David Norris’s assertion that the Government is corrupt in any way, or that the Minister for Justice and Equality is corrupt. He is one of the best justice Ministers we have had in the past 30 years.

12/03/2014G01900Senator Mary M. White: As good as Mr. Haughey and I mean that.

12/03/2014G02000Senator David Norris: What about Deputies Clare Daly and Mick Wallace and the other people involved?

12/03/2014G02100An Cathaoirleach: The Leader to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014G02200Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Michael Mullins raised the issue of the €68 million allocation for new social housing announced by the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan. This is to be welcomed, in addition to the €15 million allocated for the refurbishment of local authority houses that are boarded up.

Senators Michael Comiskey and Denis O’Donovan raised the issue of a Dutch super trawler fishing in Irish waters. I agree that the conservation organisations are correct in outlining their concerns in this regard. Such ships should be banned from our waters, if at all possible. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney.

Senator Aideen Hayden noted the write-off by AIB of €150,000 in one mortgage arrears case and that there were anomalies in the code of conduct that should be reviewed. I will bring this matter to the attention of the Minister for Finance.

Senator Michael Comiskey asked about moneys being made available to repair storm damage to farms in his area. Senator Hildegarde Naughton also raised the issue of insurance cover and storm damage, a matter also raised on the Adjournment by Senator Deirdre Clune. It is a valid point for businesses and properties damaged by storms and floods.

Senator Terry Leyden raised the issue of the appointment of the US ambassador to Ireland. It is regrettable that an ambassador has not been put in place to date, but that is a matter for the US President, Mr. Obama, to address. I hope it will be addressed in early course.

Senator Tom Sheahan raised the issue of people seeking work in the construction sector. I will bring the anomaly to which he referred to the attention of the relevant Minister.

Senators Paul Bradford and Colm Burke addressed the question of the cross-border health care directive. Senator Colm Burke says the directive has not yet been transposed into Irish law and that there is a treatment abroad fund. I will bring the matter to the attention of the relevant Minister, as requested by Senator Paul Bradford who also acknowledged the work of Mr. Flan- nery in building up Rehab and providing much-needed services in that organisation.

382 12 March 2014 Senator Michael Mullins referred to the instructions issued to Ministers regarding travel. It is prudent for such instructions to be issued to Ministers when travelling abroad.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan raised a matter that had been mentioned by Senator Terry Leyden yesterday - the Trichet letter and its location - and said the letter should be published and made available in the public domain.

12/03/2014H00200Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, knows where it is. He has it.

12/03/2014H00300Senator Maurice Cummins: I addressed that issue yesterday.

12/03/2014H00400Senator Terry Leyden: The Leader did not address it.

12/03/2014H00500Senator Maurice Cummins: I queried why the previous Government had not put it in the public domain for people to examine.

12/03/2014H00600Senator Darragh O’Brien: Why is the Government not doing it?

12/03/2014H00700Senator David Norris: The Leader is right; it should have been.

12/03/2014H00800Senator Darragh O’Brien: I agree with the Leader, but why will the Government not publish it?

12/03/2014H00900Senator Maurice Cummins: I will share the concerns of the Minister for Finance with Senators-----

12/03/2014H01000Senator Terry Leyden: I do not think the Minister has the letter.

12/03/2014H01100An Cathaoirleach: The Leader to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014H01200Senator Maurice Cummins: Will Senator Terry Leyden, please, let me respond? He had a very good innings. As he was dancing for a long time, will he let someone else respond?

12/03/2014H01300Senator Terry Leyden: I am sorry; I was trying to assist the Leader.

12/03/2014H01400An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is out of step.

12/03/2014H01500Senator Maurice Cummins: In the case of some 70% of appeals in respect of invalidity and disability payments the decisions have been overturned. I agree that the number is far too great and that the matter should be examined.

12/03/2014H01600Senator David Norris: Good man.

12/03/2014H01700Senator Maurice Cummins: I will ask the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, to come to the House to discuss it.

Senators Diarmuid Wilson and Brian Ó Domhnaill mentioned local development companies. I have the utmost confidence that local authorities will provide the best possible service. A one-stop shop is required in every local authority. If the local authorities are given the opportunity, they will do an excellent job. The matter was raised on the Adjournment yesterday and the Minister spoke about it. I cannot understand Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill raising a question on the Order of Business that he raised on the Adjournment yesterday.

383 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014H01800Senator Darragh O’Brien: He wants to have it answered.

12/03/2014H01900Senator Maurice Cummins: I cannot understand that at all.

12/03/2014H02000Senator Darragh O’Brien: We have loads of time to talk about it because there is nothing else happening.

12/03/2014H02100Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Martin Conway referred to the initial allocation of €19 million in response to the recent flooding and mentioned that €8.7 million had been allocated to County Clare. That county was very badly hit and it is right that such an amount of money be allocated, in addition to the €17 million from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

I also note the Senator’s point on the undocumented Irish, a point also made by other Sena- tors. I am sure the Taoiseach will use the events of St. Patrick’s Day, as he did last year, to highlight the plight of the undocumented Irish in the United States.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill spoke about the funding of national parks. We can have the Minister for Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, in the House to address the issues of heritage and national parks in early course.

Senator John Gilroy raised the very important issue of suicide prevention and referred to the paper he would present. We look forward to having a further debate on the issue.

We are all glad that Senator Mary White has been fully restored to good health and outlined the success of Lir Chocolates. I am sure the company will have a very successful Easter.

12/03/2014H02400Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Will we be given two boxes this year?

12/03/2014H02500An Cathaoirleach: Senator Darragh O’Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: “That a debate with the Minister for Health on the issue of medical cards for children, those with a long-term illness and the elderly be taken today.” Is the amendment being pressed?

12/03/2014H02600Senator Darragh O’Brien: Yes.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 23. Tá Níl Barrett, Sean D. Bacik, Ivana. Cullinane, David. Brennan, Terry. Leyden, Terry. Burke, Colm. Mac Conghail, Fiach. Clune, Deirdre. Mooney, Paschal. Coghlan, Eamonn. Norris, David. Coghlan, Paul. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Comiskey, Michael. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. Conway, Martin. O’Brien, Darragh. Cummins, Maurice. O’Donovan, Denis. D’Arcy, Jim. O’Sullivan, Ned. D’Arcy, Michael.

384 12 March 2014 Reilly, Kathryn. Gilroy, John. White, Mary M. Hayden, Aideen. Wilson, Diarmuid. Henry, Imelda. Higgins, Lorraine. Keane, Cáit. Kelly, John. Mulcahy, Tony. Mullins, Michael. Naughton, Hildegarde. O’Keeffe, Susan. O’Neill, Pat. Sheahan, Tom.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.

Amendment declared lost.

Question, “That the Order of Business be agreed to,” put and declared carried.

Sitting suspended at 11.45 a.m. and resumed at noon.

12/03/2014K00050Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge: Statements

12/03/2014K00100An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heri- tage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Dinny McGinley.

12/03/2014K00200Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Dinny McGinley): Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus mar Aire Stáit sa Roinn Ealaíon Oidhreacht agus Gaeltachta, fáiltím roimh an deis seo labhairt leis an Seanad faoi chur i bhfeidhm na Straitéise 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge. Ar ndóigh tá an Taoiseach agus an Tánaiste gan trácht ar cheannairí na bpáirtithe polaitiúil eile ag tabhairt dea-shampla dúinn ó thaobh úsáid na Gaeilge de sna tithe seo. Is cinnte gur féidir linn uile féachaint ar an dóigh gur féidir linn féin níos mó úsáide a bhaint as ár gcuid Gaeilge le linn ár gcuid oibre laethúil sa tSeanad agus sa Dáil.

12/03/2014K00300Senator Fiach Mac Conghail: Gabh mo leithscéal. Just mar phointe eolais, a Leas-Cha- thaoirligh, agus níl mé droch-mhúinte, ach an bhfuil cóip de léacht an Aire le fáil?

12/03/2014K00400An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Ar aghaidh leat a Aire.

12/03/2014K00500Deputy Dinny McGinley: Tá an Ghaeilge ar cheann de na hacmhainní is nádúrtha agus is luachmhara atá againn. Creideann an Rialtas go bhfuil tábhacht ag baint le pobail labhartha 385 Seanad Éireann láidir Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta a chothú chun saibhreas oidhreachta na teanga a choinneáil beo agus a thabhairt slán don chéad ghlúin eile.

San aiteas seo tá sé i gceist agam léargas a thabhairt ar an obair atá ar bun ag an Rialtas seo chun leas na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn tríd an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge a chur i bhfeidhm. Ní miste a mheabhrú dúinn féin go bhfuil iomaí dul chun cinn déanta le roinnt blianta anuas ó thaobh na teanga de lena n-áirítear bunú RTE Raidió na Gaeltachta, bunú TG4, achtú Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla agus Acht na Gaeltachta, bunú Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga, Foras na Gaeilge agus Údarás na Gaeltachta. An t-aitheantas don Ghaeilge faoin Chomhaontú Aoine an Chéasta i dTuaisceart Éireann agus tá an t-aitheantas don Ghaeilge mar theanga oifigiúil agus mar theanga oibre san Aontas Eorpach.

Ba mhaith liom anois díriú ar an Straitéis 20 Blain don Ghaeilge. Tá sé ráite i gClár an Rialtais go dtacóidh an Rialtas leis an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge agus go ndéanfar sp- riocanna indéanta atá molta inti a sheachadadh. Mar is eol don Teach is ag mo Roinnse atá an fhreagracht ar a ghabhála an straitéis a chomhordú agus a chur i bhfeidhm i gcomhar le réimse mhór de pháirtithe leasmhara. Aithnítear san straitéis féin go bhfuil gá le cur chuige céimneach chun beartais na straitéise a chur i gcrích. I gcomhréir leis an gcur chuige seo. Tá dul chun cinn á dhéanamh maidir le raon leathan gníomhaíochtaí faoin straitéis a chur i bhfeidhm de réir a chéile ar bhealach chórasach laistigh de na hacmhainní teoranta atá ar fáil. Mar chuid den phróiseas sin, d’fhoilsíodh na tuarascáil i Mí Iúil 2013 inar léiríodh an dul chun cinn foriomlán atá déanta maidir le feidhmiú na stráitéise le linn na tréimhse 2010-2013. Ina theannta sin, d’fhoilsigh na Ranna Rialtais ábhartha 11 acu san iomlán a gcuid pleananna forfheidhmithe faoin stráitéis ag an am chéanna. Dá bhrí sin, is léir domsa go bhfuil cur chuige soiléir ann maidir le cur i bhfeidhm na straitéise agus go bhfuil dul chun cinn á dhéanamh go staidéartha agus go stuama taobh istigh de na hacmhainní atá ar fáil. Ní miste a luadh a Chathaoirligh go bhfuil sé i gceist agam coiste comhairleach a bhunú i gcomhar leis na heagraíochtaí ábhartha Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta chun plé go sonrach le cur i bhfeidhm na straitéise agus an próiseas pleanála teanga faoi Acht na Gaeltachta. Is i gcomhthéacs an róil comhordaithe atá ag mo Roinn maidir le cur i bhfeidhm na stráitéise atá an coiste comhairleach á bhunú agam. Tá mé ag súil go dtabharfaidh bunú an choiste comhairleach deis do na heagraíochtaí ábhartha Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta plé le mo Roinn maidir leis an mbealach is fearr an straitéis agus an próiseas pleanála teanga a chur i bhfeidhm. Táim ag súil fosta go gcothóidh an coiste comhairleach comhoibriú agus comhthuis- cint níos fearr idir na páirtithe éagsúla i dtaca leis an stráitéis agus an próiseas pleanála teanga.

Is léiriú follasach é an €0.5 miliúin atá curtha ar fáil i gcomhar allúntas ar leith don stráitéis ar mheastacháin acmhainní mo Roinne do 2014 ar thiomantas an Rialtais i leith na Gaeilge. Cuirfidh an maoiniú seo ar chumas mo Roinne tabhairt faoi ghníomhaíochtaí éagsúla a thacóidh leis an phróiseas pleanála teanga ar an talamh. Áirítear anseo tacaíocht do eagraíochtaí pobail chun cabhrú leo, tabhairt faoi phleananna teanga a ullmhú agus a fheidhmiú na Gaeltachta faoi Acht na Gaeltachta 2012.

Le hAcht na Gaeltacht tá céim shuntasach tógtha chun dúshraith reachtúil chuí a bhunú io- nas go mbeifear in ann déileáil ar bhealach níos éifeachtaí agus níos córasaí ar chur i bhfeidhm na straitéise as seo amach. Cuireann Acht na Gaeltachta 2012 an chreatlach reachtúil ar fáil chun tabhairt faoi phróiseas pleanála teanga ar bhonn comhordaithe. Táthar ag súil go mbeidh an pobail an earnáil dheonach, an earnáil phoiblí agus an earnáil phríobháideach ag obair as lámha a chéile chun tacú lena cheile sna ceantair éagsúla a bheidh aitheanta faoin Acht. Is tríd pleananna teanga a ullmhú agus a fheidhmiú ag leibhéal an phobail a thugtar tacaíocht don Ghaeilge mar theanga an phobail agus teaghlaigh i gceantar Gaeltachta agus i gceantair eile tao- 386 12 March 2014 bh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Tá an próiseas pleanála teanga faoi Acht na Gaeltachta 2012 á chur i bhfeidhm ag mo Roinn i gcomhar le hÚdarás na Gaeltachta agus le Foras na Gaeilge. Táthar ag tabhairt tús áite don 26 limistéir pleanála teanga Gaeltachta atá aitheanta chun críche an Achta. Foilsíodh na céad fhógraí faoin Acht i Mí na Nollag 2013 i gcás Chiarraí thiar, Cois Fharraige, Gaoth Dobhair, Rann na Feirste, Anagaire agus Luch an Úir. Táthar ag súil go mbeidh deich bhfógraí eile foilsithe i mbliana agus go ndéanfar na fógraí eile ina dhiaidh sin. Ar ndóigh, tá Údarás na Gaeltachta freagrach faoin Acht as na tacaíocht a thabhairt do eagraíochtaí maidir le hullmhú agus le feidhmiú pleananna teanga sa limistéar pleanála teanga Gaeltachta.

Maidir leis na bailte seirbhíse Gaeltachta tá sé i gceist ag mo Roinn próiseas comhair- liúcháin a reáchtáil i mbliana maidir le roghnú na mbailte is oiriúnaí le bheith aitheanta faoin Acht mar bhailte seirbhíse Gaeltachta. I gcás na líonraí Gaeilge tuigtear dom go bhfuil sé i gceist ag Foras na Gaeilge scéim na líonraí Gaeilge a fhógairt ag tús na bliana seo chugainn. Déanann mo Roinn líon leathan scéimeanna agus tionscnaimh agus bearta a reáchtáil ar bhonn leanúnach atá dírithe ar chúnamh reatha agus caipiteal a chur ar fáil do thograí teanga láraithe taobh istigh agus taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht.

Is faoi scáth Clár Tacaíochta Teaghlaigh mo Roinne a sheol mé i mí Aibreáin 2012 a bhíonn cuid mhaith de na scéimeanna seo á n-eagrú agus iad dírithe go sonrach ar theaghlaigh atá ag tógáil a bpáistí le Gaeilge go háirithe sa Ghaeltacht. I measc na mbearta faoi leith atá ar siúl tá an pacáiste tacaíocht teanga seolta chuig breis agus 2,000 teaghlach chun cabhair phraiticiúil a chur ar fáil dóibh ina gcuid iarrachtaí a bpáistí a thógáil le Gaeilge. Tá breis airgid curtha ar fáil agam chun forbairt a dhéanamh ar scéim na gcúntóirí teanga i mbunscoileanna Gaeltachta. Tá leasuithe déanta ar scéim na gcampaí samhraidh le cur lena n-éifeacht sa Ghaeltacht agus tá bearta faoi leith atá dírithe go sonrach ar aos óg na Gaeltachta maoinithe ag mo Roinn.

Ag cur san áireamh gurb iad na blianta tosaigh i saol an pháiste na cinn is tábhachtaí ó thaobh sealbhaithe agus saibhrithe na teanga de, is fiú go mór treisiú a dhéanamh ar an obair fhónta atá ar bun sa réimse seo sa Ghaeltacht le go mbeidh cúnamh breise ar fáil do theaghlaigh Gaeltachta atá ag tógáil a gcuid páistí le Gaeilge.

Chuige sin, is údar áthais dom a chur in iúl don teach inniu go bhfuil mé ag fógairt scéim nua inniu dar teideal an scéim seirbhísí réamhscoile agus iarscoile. Tá sé mar fheidhm ag an scéim tacú le teaghlaigh Gaeltachta chun a bpáistí a thógáil le Gaeilge. Tá €120 míle curtha ar fáil don scéim nua seo atá ag teacht as an allúntas ar leith atá ag mo Roinn don Straitéis 20 bliain don Ghaeilge. Faoin scéim, cuirfear conradh reatha gur fiú suas le €15 míle in aghaidh na bliana ar fáil do na hionaid tacaíocht teaghlaigh agus do ionad cúram leanaí atá lonnaithe sa Ghaeltacht chun cuidiú leo gníomhaíochtaí breise faoi leith a reáchtáil a bheidh mar fheidhm acu deiseanna breise sealbhaíochta agus saibhrithe teanga a chur ar fáil do na teaghlaigh Gaeltachta. Is faoi Chlár Tacaíochta Teaghlaigh mo Roinne, a bhí an scéim seo á reáchtáil agus í mar chuid de chur i bhfeidhm na Straitéise 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge agus an phróiseas pleanála teanga faoi Acht na Gaeltacht 2012.

Táim an-sásta a Chathaoirligh, a bheith in ann an scéim nua seo a fhógairt inniu. Cabhróidh an scéim go mór le dul i ngleic leis na dúshláin a bhaineann lena chinntiú go dtéann an Ghaeilge ar aghaidh go bisiúil mar theanga bheo ó ghlúin go glúin sa Ghaeltacht. Luíonn an scéim go rathúil leis an obair dheonach atá ar bun i réimsí na réamhscolaíochta ag a leithéidí Comhar Naíonraí na Gaeltachta.

Aithnímid ar ndóigh, go bhfuil go leor le déanamh faoin straitéis. Ach is trua liom a Chatha- 387 Seanad Éireann oirligh, go ndéantar beag is fiú den obair fhiúntach agus dáiríre atá ar siúil ar fud an Státchóras agus go leor den tráchtaireacht atá déanta ar an stráitéis le tamaill anuas. Tugann an stráitéis an chreatlach pholasaí do na páirtithe leasmhara éagsúla idir an Stát agus an pobal chun obair as lámha a chéile ar bhonn comhpháirtíochta chun fheidhmeanna fiúntacha a bhaint amach ar bhonn céimneach. Sa chomhthéacs seo, tá súil agam gur féidir le baill Thithe an Oireachtais comhoibriú ar bhonn traspháirtí chun treoir agus dea-shampla a thabhairt maidir leis an cheist thábhachtach seo.

Ba mhaith liom a Chathaoirligh cúpla focal a rá anois maidir le ceann de na héilimh atá tagtha chun cinn ar na mallaibh maidir le ceart lucht labhartha na Gaeilge. Is é sin an gá atá le níos mó daoine le Gaeilge líofa a fhostú, chun gur féidir leis an Státchóras freastal níos fearr a dhéanamh ar riachtanais teanga pobail na Gaeltachta ach go háirithe. Is fheidhm lárnach pholasaí de chuid an Rialtais é úsáid na Gaeilge a threisiú agus tá sé ina ghné thábhachtach den pholasaí sin go mbeidh baill foirne atá inniúil sa Ghaeilge ar fáil sa Státchóras. Ar ndóigh, tá an cheist maidir le cumas comhaltaí poiblí seirbhísí a sholáthair trí Ghaeilge agus ceist na hearcaíochta sa Státchóras fite fuaite lena chéile.

Mar thoradh ar chinneadh a thóg an Rialtas sa mhí Dheireadh Fómhair 2013 chun cumas na Gaeilge sa Státseirbhís a threisiú tá an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe ag iarraidh ar Ranna Rialtais agus ar Oifigí Rialtais sainaithint a dhéanamh ar phoist agus ar réimsí oibre ina dteastaíonn oifigigh le Gaeilge mar chuid den phróiseas pleanála teanga don nós oibre. Táthar ag iarraidh ar Ranna aird ar leith a thabhairt ar phoist faoi leith atá lonnaithe i gceantair Ghaeltachta nó a dhéanann freastal ar cheantair Ghaeltachta. Beidh an próiseas seo lárnach chun a chinntiú go ndéanfar foráil dhóthanach i gcomórtas earcaíochta amach anseo do chea- pacháin i bpoist ina dteastaíonn oifigigh le Gaeilge.

Ina theannta sin, sonrófar na poist sin ina dteastaíonn Gaeilge ina scéimeanna teanga faoi Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla 2003 amach anseo. Mar chéad chéim sa phróiseas seo, cuirfear na socruithe nua i bhfeidhm don Chomórtas earcaíochta do Oifigigh Feidhmiúcháin. Tá sé beartaithe fo-pháinéal do dhaoine atá inniúil sa Ghaeilge a chruthú ar a bheidh 6% de líon an phainéil; iomlán air.

Chomh maith leis na beartais seo, tá comhaontú seirbhíse sínithe ag mo Roinn leis an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe, chun oiliúint sa Ghaeilge agus tástáil inniúlachta do sho- láthair an Státseirbhís do ghníomhaíochtaí poiblí ar leith. Is comhartha dóchais é, go bhfuil ó mhí na Samhna 2011 i leith os cionn 300 seirbhíseach poiblí atá tar éis páirt a ghlacadh i gcúrsaí oiliúna atá eagraithe ag an gcomhlacht oiliúna Gaelchúltúr, a bhfuil Conradh acu le Foras na Gaeilge chun cúrsaí oiliúna a sholáthair don tseirbhís phoiblí.

Tá an t-athbhreithniú ar Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla 2003 críochnaithe anois agus cuirfear na dréacht chinn den Bhille chun an tAcht a leasú faoi bhráid an Rialtais go luath. Tá sé i gceist na dréacht chinn de Bhille a chur faoi bhráid an Choiste um Chomhshaoil, Cultúir agus an Ghaeltacht agus iad a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh idirlín mo Roinne i dteannta le torthaí an phróisis comhairliúcháin chomh luath agus atá an cead an Rialtais faighte chuige sin. Tá an Coimisinéir Teanga úr, an tUasal Ronán Ó Domhnaill ar tí a shéala a fháil ón Uachtarán mar a tharlaíonn sé inniu. Ba dheas liom gach rath a ghuí air ina chuid oibre.

A Chathaoirligh, mar fhocal scoir, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a chur in iúl arís as an deis a fháil léargas a thabhairt don tSeanad ar an méid atá ar siúl faoi láthair chun fheidhmeanna na stráitéise 20 bliain a bhaint amach. Is gnéithe fíor thábhachtach í an Ghaeilge den Oidhreacht 388 12 March 2014 agus den Ghaeltacht agus is onóir agus is pribhléid domsa an deis a fháil mo cheann féin a dhé- anamh mar Aire Stáit sa Rialtas seo chun tacú le caomhnú agus le forbairt na hoidhreachta sin. Aithním agus tuigim go maith gur ag obair i gcomhairle le chéile is fearr a bhainimid torthaí fónta amach chun an oidhreacht bheo seo a thabhairt ar aghaidh slán don chéad ghlúin eile. Cé go bhfuil an Rialtas tiomanta gach a dhéanamh laistigh dá chumhachtaí chun an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn, tá todhchaí na teanga, nuair atá an deireadh ráite ag brath go príomha ar an bpobal féin. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil tromlach an phobail dearfach i leith na teanga. Tá orainn timpeallacht a chothú ina mbraitheann daoine muiníneach chun a gcuid Gaeilge a úsáid, is Cuma cén leibhéal cumais atá acu inti. Tá sé riachtanach go leanfar ag baint leas as an teanga mar theanga pobail agus teaghlaigh sa Ghaeltacht agus go gcuirfear an teanga chun cinn ar bhonn níos forleithne taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht, mar atá luaite in san Straitéis 20 Bliain agus ag deireadh an lae mar a deir an seanfhocal “is beatha teanga í a labhairt” agus arís bheirim buío- chas libh as bhur n-éisteacht.

12/03/2014L00200An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Go raibh maith agat a Aire.

12/03/2014L00300Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: Tá fáilte romhat a Aire anseo inniu agus tá an-áthas orm freisin go bhfuil an díospóireacht seo ag tarlú; tá sé thar a bheith suimiúil go bhfuil díospói- reacht ar siúl ar feadh tamaill fada le déanaí maidir leis an Ghaeilge ní hamháin san Oireachtas ach lasmuigh ar na sráideanna, ar shráideanna Bhaile Átha Cliath, Béal Feirste, Conamara agus áiteanna eile. Tá an díospóireacht ar siúl chomh maith in sna meáin chumarsáide, rud a chruthaíonn go bhfuil an Ghaeilge bheo go bhfuil grá ann don Ghaeilge agus go bhfuil daoine thar a bheith dáiríre maidir leis an Ghaeilge freisin.

An tábhacht is mó a bhaineann le Straitéis na Gaeilge, ná go raibh an-réamh ullmhúchán déanta, go raibh an-chóras comhairliúchán ann le cinntiú go raibh seans ag gach duine tuiscint a bheith acu ar cad a bheadh in san straitéis féin. Chomh maith leis sin is dócha, bhí gach páirtí ar thaobh na stráitéise agus bhí sé sin tábhachtach freisin mar ní le haon pháirtí an Ghaeilge is le pobal na tíre an Ghaeilge sin mar atá sé agus chomh maith leis sin is dócha bhí géar gá le taispeáint go rabhamar dáiríre maidir le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge. Go mór mhór go mbeadh na seirbhísí chuí ann maidir le húsáid na Gaeilge agus tá sé sin an-soiléir in san straitéis féin.

Tá sé tábhachtach is dócha a aithint go bhfuil Seachtain na Gaeilge ar siúl i láthair na huaire agus nuair a thosaigh Seachtain na Gaeilge i dtosach bhí sé beag agus b’fhéidir go raibh sé lag. Ach má fhéachann tú ar Sheachtain na Gaeilge anois, tá sé amuigh i measc an phobail tá sé i ngach cuimhne. Fiú amháin tá sé thíos in san seomra bhia san Oireachtas don tseachtain ar fad. Taispeánann sé sin cad díreach is féidir a dhéanamh má tá daoine dírithe ar cad go díreach atá ag teastáil uathu. Tá sí le clos ar an raidió ar an teilifís tá daoine mórálach as an Ghaeilge agus caithfimid tréaslú leis na daoine óga a bhí chun tosaigh le Seachtain na Gaeilge a bhunú. Níl aon cheist anois ach go bhfuil níos mó dea-thola ann anois don Ghaeilge ná mar a bhí in sna caogaidí, na seascaidí nó fiú na seachtóidí tá an dea-thoil ann. Ach bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Aire ar maidin bhí sé ag labhairt ag ócáid eile maidir le stádas na Gaeilge lasmuigh den tír agus caithfidh mé a rá gur chuaigh an óráid go mór i bhfeidhm orm. Bhí sé spreagúil agus bheadh sé an-deacair na fíricí a chur sé amach ar maidin a shéanadh. Na bun rudaí féin, conas is féidir le duine freastal ar scoil ar feadh ceithre bliana déag de bheith ag foghlaim na Gaeilge gach uile lá agus gan a bheith in ann nó gan an mhuinín a bheith aige nó aici an Ghaeilge a labhairt sin buncheist atá an-tábhachtach. Do labhair sé faoi an dúshlán a bhí ann don Ghaeltacht. Ní bheadh sé cóir ná cheart é sin a shéanadh, mar tá sé fíor. Tá dúshlán ann don Ghaeltacht agus más rud é go dteipfidh ar an Ghaeltacht, is féidir glacadh leis go dteipfidh ar chur chun cinn na Gaeilge. Tá sé tábhachtach dúinne a bheith ag caint faoi na rudaí sin. Conas is féidir na rudaí 389 Seanad Éireann sin a fheabhsú agus a cheartú, sin na bun rudaí go gcaithfimid a bheith ag caint faoi?

Tugaim faoi deara anseo sa Teach seo na daoine a labhraíonn Gaeilge liomsa agus tá an- áthas ormsa go bhfuil roinnt mhaith daoine a labhraíonn Gaeilge anseo gach lá in san Teach seo. Ní duine nó beirt ach b’fhéidir go bhfuil dáréag ar fad a labhraíonn Gaeilge. Is ionainn é sin agus a rá go bhfuil an timpeallacht anseo fabhrach don Ghaeilge agus caithfimid féachaint ar na samplaí, conas mar a tharlaíonn sé sin.

Tá na mór ceisteanna ann níl aon amhras. Is trua gur tharla an conspóid mar gheall ar an gcoimisinéir, duine macánta ab ea Sean Ó Cuirreáin. Ní raibh sé ag iarraidh a bheith pearsanta. Bhí sé ag taispeáint nach bhfuil an Státchóras ag déanamh go leor, maidir le straitéis. Now, tá fhios againn go léir go bhfuil sé sin fíor. Bíonn leisce orm go minic labhairt le duine mar shampla sa Roinn Oideachais. Mar ní thugaim faoi deara go bhfuil siad mar a déarfá, ag tabhairt cuiridh dom labhairt na Gaeilge. Ach suimiúil go leor is a mhalairt atá ann leis na Rev- enue Commissioners leis na Coimisinéirí Ioncaim déanaim mo ghnó i gcónaí trí Ghaeilge leo siúd agus tá siad ar fheabhas, ar fheabhas. So, conas is féidir leis na Coimisinéirí Ioncam é a dhéanamh agus fios maith agat ma chuireann tú glaoch agus má bhíonn seirbhísí as Gaeilge ag teastáil tá siad ann? Ba chóir go mbeadh sé díreach mar in gceanna leis na Ranna Stáit agus leis na comhlachtaí poiblí ar fad, sin atá i gceist sa stráitéis.

Más rud é go bhfuil laigeacht ann agus go bhfuil easpa ann maidir le foireann nó aon rud, caithfimid tabhairt faoi sin go práinneach, go bunúsach agus caithfimid a bheith cinnte, ní hamháin go bhfuil riail sa stráitéis nó sa reachtaíocht ach caithfimid a bheith sásta go bhfuil na daoine seo báúil agus go bhfuil siad sásta seirbhís iomlán, croíúil a thabhairt dúinn trí Ghaeilge. Sin iad na buncheisteanna go gcaithfimid a fhreagairt. Ní thugaim féin faoi deara aon naimh- deachas anois faoin Ghaeilge.

Fiú amháin na litreacha a thagann, a bhí in sna páipéir nuair a bhí na conspóidí ar siúl agus na léirsithe ar siúl. Ní raibh mórán daoibh ann i gcomparáid leis na seascaidí agus cuid de na litreacha sin a bhí i gcoinne na Gaeilge caithfimid a rá ní dóigh liom go gcuirfidís eagla ar aon duine. Tromlach de na daoine tuigeann siad nach bhfuil aon teanga chomh breá, chomh healaíonta, chomh stairiúil leis an Ghaeilge. Téann sí siar i bhfad, tá litríocht iontach ann sa Ghaeilge agus gach uile duine lasmuigh den tír seo, bíonn áthas orthu a chlos go bhfuil ár dteanga féin againn. Sin na fíricí agus na mór ceisteanna a thagann chun tosaigh in sna díospói- reachtaí anseo, in sna Coistí Oireachtais agus mar sin. Caithfimid dar ndóigh iad sin a phlé, ach caithfimid teacht thar nais go dtí na bun deacrachtaí agus na buncheisteanna.

Mar chríoch caithfidh mé é seo a rá. Is beag rud a thug spreagadh domsa le tamall anuas ná na daoine óga a bheith chun tosaigh maidir le chur chun cinn na Gaeilge. Daoine breátha iad, daoine cumasacha iad , daoine le hoideachas iad. So mar sin bá chóir dúinn inniu, níl mé chun dul isteach ins na mórcheisteanna, mar is ceiliúradh atá ar siúl le Seachtain na Gaeilge agus caithfimid díriú ar an gceiliúradh. Tá an Ghaeilge bheo. Tá sí bríomhar in ana-chuid áiteanna tá grá ann don Ghaeilge, tá an-chuid imeachtaí ann trí Ghaeilge. Tá daoine dar ndóigh ag fa- nacht le freagra ar cheisteanna áirithe, ach seo Seachtain na Gaeilge ceiliúradh don Ghaeilge, ceiliúradh dár bhféiniúlacht náisiúnta, ceiliúradh dár gcine agus go mór mhór le bheith cinnte go bhfuilimid dílis don traidisiúin a sheas linn agus a chabhraigh linn ar feadh na céadta agus na mílte bliain. Go raibh maith agat a Aire.

12/03/2014M00200Senator Terry Brennan: Ba mhaith liomsa, agus tá áthas ormsa fáilte a chuir romhat, a Aire, go dtí an tSeanaid. Bíonn tú anseo linn go minic agus molaim thú an tseachtain atá inniu 390 12 March 2014 ann, “Seachtain na Gaeilge”. Bhí tú anseo linn an bhliain seo caite, sa seachtain céanna.

A Aire, mar a dúirt mé cheana sa Seanad, nuair a bhí mise i scoil náisiúnta i gCáirlinn, Contae Lú, cúpla bliain ó shin nó mar sin bhí gach buachaill agus gach cailín ábalta a theanga féin a labhairt go flúirseach. Bhí gach aon duine ábalta a theanga féin a labhairt go flúirseach. Bhí an-suim ag an mhúinteoir, na múinteoirí a bhí agam ar ár dteanga féin. D’fhoghlaim mé stair, tír eolas, matamaitic agus gach rud trí Ghaeilge ó rang a dó go dtí rang a sé, gach aon rud ach amháin an Béarla. Sin mar a bhí sé sna scoileanna náisiúnta a bhí i mo cheantar. Bhí cúig scoileanna náisiúnta sa cheantar agus sin mar a bhí sé i ngach scoil i mo cheantar féin. Áfach, a Aire ní mar atá sé anois i mo cheantar féin. Ceapaim nach bhfuil an locht ar na múinteoirí go léir caithfimid agus na múinteoirí béim níos mó a chur air, níl mé ábalta mo scríbhneoireacht a léamh béim níos mó a chur ar na bun-chlocha ár dteanga sna scoileanna náisiúnta. Béim níos mó ar na hainmfhocail, na haidiachtaí, na briathra, an aimsir chaite, an aimsir láithreach agus an modh coinníollach, níl siad acu.

Tá triúr gar phaistí agam, duine amháin i scoil náisiúnta, duine eile sa mheánscoil. Níl siad ábalta abairt amháin a rá, a verb, a noun, a pronoun, an adjective. Tá mise ag déanamh iarrachta iad a mhúineadh; na briathra, na rudaí simplí, níl siad acu. Muna mbíonn na bunúsachtaí ag na páistí óga, ag na páistí ag fágáil na scoileanna náisiúnta, muna mbíonn siad acu beidh siad an- lag i nGaeilge ag dul go dtí na meánscoileanna, beidh siad an-lag agus go minic caileann siad a dteanga féin. Ní bhíonn áthas orthu a dteanga féin a labhairt. It is not fun for them to speak their own language. Tá brón orm é sin a rá sa Seanad an tseachtain atá ann, ar Sheachtain na Gaeilge. Is é mo thuairimse nach bhfuil an cuid is mo de na páistí ábalta abairt a chur le chéile.

Go minic sa Teach seo, bíonn cuairteoirí ó scoileanna ar fud na tíre. Uaireanta tosaím ag caint leo. “Cad as daoibh? Cá cónaíonn tú? Cén t-ainm atá ar an scoil? Cén rang in a bhufil tú?” Féachann siad orm agus na súile oscailte, mar sin. Uaireanta an múinteoir iarann siad ar Oliver nó Traolach caint liom i nGaeilge, cúpla focal. Ní féidir leo freagra a thabhairt dom nuair a chuirim ceist orthu, anois is arís sa Teach seo creid é nó ná creid é a Aire. Sin mar a bhíonn siad liomsa.

Tá Gaeilge an-mhaith ag an cuid is mó de na Seanadóirí sa Teach seo, Labhrás agus iad sin. Caithfimid a rá nach bhfuilimid go léir chomh maith ag labhairt le Seanadóir Ó Murchú agus Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh. Níl mise abalta caint chomh maith leo ach táim ag déanamh iarrachta gach lá is féidir liom. Ach is é mo thuairim go bhfuil oibleagáid orainn go léir cúpla focal a rá le chéile mar a dúirt Lábhrás chomh minic agus is féidir linn sa Teach seo agus a bheith bródúil as ár dteanga. Ní bheidh mé ró-fhada, tá mé críochnaithe.

Scéal beag a Aire, cúpla seachtain ó shin taobh amuigh den Teach seo ar an sráid chonaic cuairteoir ó na Stáit Aontaithe mo fháinne airgid, an fáinne óir i mo chóta agus thosaigh sé ag caint liom. Bhí áthas an domhain orm, duine a rugadh agus a tógadh suas i Nua Eabhrac beagnach seasca bliain d’aois agus d’iarr mé air “how are you able to speak Irish so well?” agus dúirt sé liom gur fhoghlaim sé an Ghaeilge ó dhuine a d’imigh thar sáile ó Chontae na Gaillimhe beagnach 20 bliain ó shin a thosaigh ag cónaí ina aice comharsa dó. Thosaigh an fear sin ó Nua Eabhrac ag caint liom taobh amuigh den Teach seo agus bhí mé an-bhródúil gur mhúin fear a bhí ar scoile romham é. Go raibh maith agat a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

12/03/2014N00200Senator Fiach Mac Conghail: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit.

12/03/2014N00300An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Níl ach fiche nóiméad fágtha.

391 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014N00400Senator Fiach Mac Conghail: Fiche nóiméad agamsa, a Leas Chathaoirligh? Níl mé ach ag magadh.

12/03/2014N00500An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Tá daoine anseo nach féidir leo caint mar níl ach fiche nóiméad fágtha.

12/03/2014N00600Senator Fiach Mac Conghail: Cé méid nóiméad atá agam?

12/03/2014N00700An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Ocht nóiméad.

12/03/2014N00800Senator Fiach Mac Conghail: Bhuel, ní úsáidfidh mé an ocht nóiméad. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit agus muid ag comóradh agus ag ceiliúradh Seachtain na Gaeilge. Go minic, is dócha bíonn sé ina raic eadrainn ar fad agus muid ag plé cúrsaí na Gaeilge agus cúrsaí na Gaeltachta ach rud amháin a dhearfaidh mé fút a Aire is breá liom do phaisean agus is breá an tslí go n-insíonn tú an fhírinne agus go minic téann tú ar ais ag caint faoi do am i do mhúinteoir agus do am i do Ghaeltacht fhéinig. Aontaím leis an Seanadóir Ó Murchú faoin caint a thug tú ar maidin faoi an fhírinne maidir le labhairt na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht, an géarchéim é sin. Is rud tábhachtach é sin a luadh agus a ath-luadh mar tá géarchéim mhór ann ní saghas luxury atá againn maidir leis an Ghaeilge - is cuid dar saol é. Is cuid dar DNA atá ann, níl fhios agam cad é an Ghaeilge atá ar DNA agus an bhfuil fhios agat táim anseo ag labhairt i nGaeilge toisc mo thuismitheoirí, beirt as Baile Átha Cliath a chinneadh mé a thógáil le Ghaeilge i mBaile Átha Cliath tríd an Oideachas nó Ghaelscolaíocht oideachais san ard chathair agus ba mhaith liom mar a deirféar mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leo. Mar is sa teaghlach a thosaíonn moladh agus meas na Gaeilge agus go háirithe don Ghaeltacht chomh maith.

Mar sin, cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach agus muid ag díospóireacht Strai- téis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge mar le saoránach is tuismitheoir cuireann sé i gcónaí ísle brí orm agus mé ag déanamh mo dhíchill mo chearta daonna a choimeád agus a láidriú, go háirithe maidir le labhairt na Gaeilge. Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí agus is minic a chuala mé an tAire ag díospóireacht go fírinneach faoi staid labhartha na Gaeilge agus go háirithe sa Ghaeltacht mar a dúirt mé leat ar maidin. Is i laige atá an Ghaeilge i gcónaí ag dul agus is ollmhór an jab atá agatsa a Aire agus againne ar fad iarracht an Ghaeilge a threisiú go práinneach. Ar bhealach tá muid, nó b’fhéidir mise, ró-bhéasach faoin umar na haimléise seo. Tá meas ag formhór pobail na tíre ar an Ghaeilge ach an éiríonn leis an mheas sin aon dul chun cinn a dhéanamh a chuidíonn le slánú na Gaeilge. Ní dóigh liom é. Chuir sé gliondar orm go raibh suas le 10,000 duine páirteach i lá mór na Gaeilge coicís ó shin. Molaim na sluaite a tháinig ón Ghaeltacht agus ón Ghalltacht chun a bhá agus a dtacaíocht a thabhairt don Ghaeilge. Is cuimhin mo mhuintir féin fadó ag caint faoi eachtra scoil Dhún Caoin nuair a déanadh iarracht slaod a dhéanamh ar phobal na Gaeltachta agus an scoil sin a dhúnadh i gceart lár Chorca Dhuibhne. Tháinig brú agus gluaiseacht as sin a chur brú ar an Rialtas an scoil a choimeád ar oscailt agus bhí Rialtas Fhine Gael ansin agus páirtí an Lucht Oibre a choimeád an scoil sin ar oscailt i 1974. Chaith mé féin ráithe sa scoil sin agus chuir sé go mór le mo dhíograis agus mo dhílseacht don Ghaeltacht agus mé ag plé agus ag caint le muintir an Bhlascaoid a bhí beo ag an am agus an choimhlint a bhí idir muintir an Bhlaoscaoid agus muintir Dhún Caoin ag an am. D’fhéadfá an difríocht a dhéanamh idir Gaeltacht nó d’fhéadfá aithint an difríocht canúna idir Gaeltacht an Bhlascaoid agus Gaeltacht Dhún Caoin cé nach raibh ann ach tréimhse trí mhíle farraige ina measc.

Chuir lá mór na Gaeilge é sin ar fad i gcuimhne dom agus an difríocht anois ná go bhfuil Aire againn go bhfuil paisean aige agus atá bríomhar agus is féidir leatsa rud éigin a dhéanamh nó tacaíocht a thabhairt do shlánú na Gaeilge. 392 12 March 2014 Is í an Ghaeltacht ar dtús bun agus barr réiteach na géarchéime seo . Níl aon dabht faoi sin. Tá sí ag fáil bháis ar bhealach agus ní maith liom easaontú ar bhealach leis an Seanadóir Ó Murchú agus muid i seachtain na ceiliúrtha seo ach is gá dúinn chomh maith a bheith fírin- neach faoin ghéarchéim seo. Is cuimhin liom féin fiche bliain ó shin nuair a bhí mo iníon ar scoil i gConamara bhí sí i rang na naíonán bheaga nó naíonán shóisearach mar a ghlaotar anois uirthi agus bhí sí mar cheann den mhionlach go raibh an Ghaeilge mar theanga baile aici agus ba é sin fiche bliain ó shin. Níor mhaith liom an scoil a lua agus bhí sí i gceart lár Gaeltacht Chonamara. So níl fhios agam conas atá ag eirí leis anois ach tá an Ghaeilge mar a déarfá ag creimeadh i measc teaghlaigh Gaeltachta agus luaigh tú é sin maidir le do Ghaeltacht fhéin a Aire agus muid ag plé ar maidin.

So gan aon dabht, le go mbeadh aon seans ag sábháil na Gaeilge, tá géargá don Státchóras tacaíocht den scoth a thabhairt do lucht na Gaeltachta ar dtús báire agus lucht na Gaeilge ansin ar fud na tíre. Mar phrionsabail aontaím le Straitéis 20 Bliain ach ar nós aon straitéis nó plean is gá iniúchadh rialta agus córas monatóireachta a bheith soiléir, neamhspleách agus reatha. Ní dóigh liom in aon chor gur féidir linn brath ar aon Státchóras nó brath ar Státseirbhísigh amháin leis an scrúdú nó an monatóireacht seo a dhéanamh orthu féin.

Fáiltím dar ndóigh roimh ainmniúchán Ronán Ó Domhnaill agus guím gach aon rath air agus tá sé go maith go ndeachaigh sé go dtí Áras an Uachtaráin inniu lena shéala, leis an Uachtarán bronnadh a shéala air. Ach, feicim féin, a Aire, go mbeadh ról níos mó aige b’fhéidir nó agus a chumhachtaí a leathnú nó threisiú ní a laigiú. Arís, mar mholadh a Aire agus maidir le tacú le fís do fhís, do phaisean bheadh sé go maith ról monatóireachta a thabhairt do Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga maidir le Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge.

Glacaim leis an chinneadh atá déanta agat maidir leis an choiste comhairleach atá bunaithe agat. Ach arís, n’fheadar an mbeadh sé sin chomh neamhspleách agus a bheadh ról an Choi- misinéara Teanga. An bhfuil tuilleadh eolais agat faoin choiste comhairleach seo? An mbeidh sé neamhspleách? An mbeidh Státseirbhísigh ar an gcoiste comhairleach? An mbeidh mar shampla cathaoirleach neamhspleách ar an gcoiste comhairleach? Dá bhfeadfá níos mó eolais a thabhairt dúinn faoi sin a Aire bheinn buíoch díot, go raibh maith agat.

Mar fhocal scoir, tá dualgas freagairt agus réiteach na géarchéime seo le fáil sa Státchóras. Tá deartháir agam atá ag obair agus comhlacht aige i mBaile Átha Cliath a dhéanann a chuid oibre i nGaeilge agus bíonn pian sa tóin aige ag plé leis an Státchóras agus go háirithe leis na Coimisinéirí Ioncam. Anois, tá suíomh Idirlín go maith acu, tá sé ar fad i nGaeilge acu agus é ag dul trí leathanach agus trí leathanach agus é ag lorg foirme go háirithe teastas deimhniú imréiteach cánach nó tax clearance cert. Téann sé tríd é ar fad i nGaeilge, leathanach i ndiaidh leathanaigh ach ansin leis an fhoirm fhéin a líonadh tá sé ar fad i mBéarla. So tar éis dul tríd an rud ar fad tá an fhoirm fhéin i mBéarla. Ar bhealach, tá an earcaíocht tábhachtach agus tá polasaí earcaíochta atá tú tar éis a lua i do léacht go maith ach is é an meon go gcaithfimid a aistriú sé sin nár cheart dúinn a bheith leithscéalach go mbeadh an Státchóras in ann dul i ngleic linn nó plé linn nó freastal orainn fiú amháin muna bhfuil puinn Gaeilge ag an oifigeach Stát- seirbhíseach. Bheadh sé go maith dá mbeadh an meon mar sin i bhfad níos oibleagáidí agus sé an focal níl an focal Gaeilge agam ach sé an focal ná default position. Ba cheart maidir le haon chearta daonna go mbeadh an Státchóras in ann freastal agus tacaíocht do lucht na Gaeilge agus go háirithe do lucht na Gaeltachta. Agus ní mór mar sin, i mo thuairim fhéin seirbhís Stáit na Gaeilge a chinntiú gan cheist, gan choinníoll agus é a dhéanamh go luath a Aire. Sé sin taobh istigh de chúpla bliain, b’fhéidir faoi dheireadh 2016 agus ní mór seirbhís Stáit a chur ar fáil as Gaeilge do phobail na Gaeilge ar chomh chaighdeán leis na seirbhísí as Béarla. 393 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014OO00200Senator Mary Moran: Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a bheith i láthair inniu agus an t-ábhar fíor-thábhachtach á phlé againn. Tá fhios agam go maith go bhfuil an t-Aire ar an eolas faoi dul chun cinn na Straitéise 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge agus go dtuigeann sé na deacrachtaí agus na dúshláin atá fós os ár gcomhair agus an straitéis seo fós le chur i bhfeidhm.

I apologise, as I am probably the only one here who cannot deliver a full speech in Irish. I wish I could.

12/03/2014OO00300Deputy Dinny McGinley: An meon atá tábhachtach. Ní hí an teanga.

12/03/2014OO00400Senator Mary Moran: The interest is there, if the Minister of State will believe me. I do not want to use all of my time. I thank the Minister of State for attending to discuss this important topic. I also thank him for his interesting speech at the event organised by Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh this morning. I will take the opportunity to welcome those from the Fulbright scholarship programme, the universities and so on. It was a most interesting briefing and I thank Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh for organising it.

Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge was introduced in 2010 with the main objective of increasing the daily number of Irish speakers from 83,000 to 150,000 by 2030, the number of people speaking Irish in the Gaeltacht by 25% and the number of people who use State services through Irish. We are in the strategy’s fourth year and I welcome the opportunity to touch base with the Minister of State on what has been achieved thus far and where we are going.

I welcome the 20 year strategy. I am not a daily Irish speaker, but I have a deep understanding of the importance of the preservation and promotion of our first language. This strategy is a step in the right direction for Gaeilge and her speakers. I probably have more of an interest in Irish in that I have tried to raise my children with my limited amount of Irish. I am delighted that, last September, the first Gaelscoil in Dundalk was opened and children now have an opportunity to attend it. I appreciate that one of the other schools, Coláiste Rís, has an Irish stream, but this is the first all-Irish Gaelscoil in Dundalk. I am sure it will continue to go from strength to strength.

I am delighted that one of my children went on to do iriseoireacht and a masters i léann teanga and is a fluent Irish speaker. I love hearing the language when the telephone rings and conversations are held in Irish.

12/03/2014OO00500Deputy Dinny McGinley: I can vouch for that.

12/03/2014OO00600Senator Mary Moran: It gives a great sense of pride. It is beautiful to hear our native tongue being spoken in such a flaithiúlach manner, as it were.

I wish to raise a number of issues. Almost two years ago I welcomed the fact that a language plan would be drafted for each Gaeltacht under the Gaeltacht Act. This move was an acknowl- edgement of the declining use of Irish in the Gaeltacht and a realistic solution. I welcome the Minister of State’s announcement today about a new scheme to encourage families and children in the Gaeltacht. However, I will reiterate a point that was made this morning, which is that we need to expand the scheme outside the Gaeltacht. Senator Fiach Mac Conghail said he had attended a Gaelscoil in Dublin. I would love to see that opportunity made available across the country.

There was a plan for a centre for Irish music and poetry. If we do not have such a centre,

394 12 March 2014 where will our future poets come from and how will we expand the Irish culture? I would like to see such centres dotted across the country, not just in Dublin or the Gaeltacht areas. The Cultúrlann in Belfast is an impressive example of what can be done to foster the Irish language. I am unaware of places in our towns where centres could be set up so that people might be able to talk in Irish over cups of coffee. Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú has done excellent work with Conradh na Gaeilge. I am a former music teacher. We can blend all of the arts together in one place.

The years 2012 and 2013 saw progress in the field of Irish terminology with the publication of An Caighdeán Oifigiúil Athbhreithnithe and An Foclóir Nua Béarla-Gaeilge, the new English-Irish dictionary that went live online at the beginning of the year. These advantages were prescribed in the strategy and I am pleased that this has resulted in successful engagement with the public. These measures will safeguard the modernity of Irish and keep the language as contemporary and up-to-date as possible in order to serve its speakers better.

The 20 year strategy’s call for action on legislation relates to the then Government’s 2006 statement on the language. I wish Rónán Ó Domhnaill the best on his appointment as An Coi- misinéir Teanga today. In that context, I draw attention to objective No. 2 in the statement, which called for the Official Languages Act to be fully implemented, the right of the public to use Irish in dealing with the State and other bodies to be developed and the appropriate arrangements to deliver these goals to be put in place. Although the matter has already been raised twice today. Are there official figures on how many proficient Irish speakers work in the Civil Service? The organisation Gaelchultúr asserts that up to 300 civil servants are undertaking Irish classes at various levels. Does the Department have any record of civil servants with Irish at an appropriately high level or of the sectors of the public service that are sufficiently staffed in order that they can deal with queries from the Irish-speaking community? That is something that has been raised today. I know somebody who applied to do a driving test in Irish in November 2013 and was told the first available date for doing the test in Irish was June 2015; naturally, therefore, the person went ahead and did it in English. There is so much scope for improvement in these areas. Another example is that of a person who recently applied for a public position in which Irish was to be used as part of the job - I would be happy to discuss this later with the Minister of State - but the exam was only provided in English. When the person asked why an exam in Irish could not be facilitated, he or she was told there was nobody available. That is an area that needs to be examined.

12/03/2014P00200Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): I hate to interrupt the Senator, but I am in a difficulty. There are a lot of speakers and the debate is to finish at 1 p.m. The Minister of State is supposed to be called to reply now.

12/03/2014P00300Senator Mary Moran: I will continue this discussion with the Minister of State.

12/03/2014P00400Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): Before calling any other speaker, I would like to point out that according to the order of the House the debate is to finish at 1 p.m., but Senators Sean D. Barrett, David Norris, Cáit Keane, Brian Ó Domhnaill and Trevor Ó Clo- chartaigh have yet to speak. Would the acting Leader like to vary the order proposed? Will all Senators co-operate with the Chair? We will extend the debate beyond 1 p.m.

12/03/2014P00500Senator Terry Brennan: Yes, by 15 minutes.

12/03/2014P00600Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): That will do it, I hope.

395 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014P00700Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: On a point of order, sílim gur ceist an-tábhachtach í seo ní dóigh liom gur leor cúig déag nóiméad. Muna bhfuil an díospóireacht ullamh faoin am a thiocfaidh deireadh leis an am, molaim go gcuirfí ar athló é sa chaoi is gur féidir linn ar fad teacht ar ais agus ocht nóiméad cainte a bheith againn. I am just suggesting to the Acting Chair- man that instead of trying to shoehorn our contributions into a couple of minutes - because we do have a lot to say on the issue - if the debate is not concluded by the specified time, we could adjourn it and pick it up at a later date.

12/03/2014P00800Senator Cáit Keane: B’fhéidir go bhfuil áit eile-----Táim ag ceapadh go bhfuil-----

12/03/2014P00900Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): I am sorry; Senator Terry Brennan will speak.

12/03/2014P01000Senator Terry Brennan: Tá cruinniú ag an Aire ag a dó a chlog in áit éigin eile.

12/03/2014P01100Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: On a point of order, I am suggesting that instead of fin- ishing the debate, we adjourn it and come back at a time that suits the Minister of State in order that we can have a full debate, rather than trying to shoehorn our contributions into one or two minutes.

12/03/2014P01200Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): Would the Minister of State be agreeable to this?

12/03/2014P01300Senator David Norris: We would still take the extra 15 minutes.

12/03/2014P01400Deputy Dinny McGinley: Yes. I can come back at any time.

12/03/2014P01500Senator David Norris: Lá eile freisin.

12/03/2014P01600Deputy Dinny McGinley: Okay.

12/03/2014P01700Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): As níl ach beagáinín Gaeilge agam, please, excuse me. We will work it out between the Minister of State and the Leader of the House.

12/03/2014P01800Senator Sean D. Barrett: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus tá fáilte roimh an tAire. One of the finest days we had recently in this House was when we were paying tribute to Seamus Heaney and Marie was in the Visitors Gallery. According to his memoirs, when Marie and Seamus brought their children to school in Ashford, his occupation was recorded as “File”. What does the file say about an teanga? We found the quote:

Not to learn Irish is to miss the opportunity of understanding what life in this country has meant and could mean in a better future. It is to cut oneself off from ways of being at home. If we regard self-understanding, mutual understanding, imaginative enhancement, cultural diversity and a tolerant political atmosphere as desirable attainments, we should remember that a knowledge of the Irish language is an essential element in their realisation.

Sin mar a deir an file.

Go minic déanfaimid dearmad ar an nasc a bhí ann riamh idir cultúir Gaeilge agus cultúir Protastúnach na tíre seo. Bhí Seanadóir Bedell Stanford ina Bhall den Teach agus sinsear Ard- Easpag Bedell a bhí ina Phropost ar Choláiste na Tríonóide agus faoin a threoir d’aistrigh an sean tiomna go Gaeilge. Is é Henry Flood, ball de pharlaimint Henry Grattan, a chur ar bun Roinn na Gaeilge i gColáiste na Tríonóide, agus bhí Dubhghlas de hÍde ina uachtarán Cumann Gaelach i gColáiste na Tríonóide sara bhunaigh sé Conradh na Gaeilge. Bhí sé ina chónaí i 396 12 March 2014 dteach 24 i gColáiste na Tríonóide agus bhí mé i mo chónaí in san teach féin. Bhí an-Ghaeilge ag an Ard-Easpag George Simms, agus níos déanaí-----

12/03/2014P01900Senator David Norris: Is fíor é sin.

12/03/2014P02000Senator Sean D. Barrett: -----Easpag Donald Caird.

12/03/2014P02100Senator David Norris: Is fíor é sin freisin.

12/03/2014P02200Senator Fiach Mac Conghail: Terence McCaughey.

12/03/2014P02300Senator Sean D. Barrett: Bhí sé ag foghlaim Gaeilge ar oileán na mBlascaodaí agus é ina fhear óg.

Seo é an ceathrú bliain den stráitéis agus tá súil agam go bhfuil sé ag déanamh go maith. Tá fáilte agam roimh an bhéim atá ar an Ghaeltacht, ar na scoileanna, ar an Ghaeilge a labhairt agus an spraoi ach an-bhéim ar an Ghaeilge a labhairt agus an bhéim mhór ar scrúdú béil san ardteist.

Tá imní orm faoi staid na Gaeltachta. Ná tréig an Ghaeltacht bunús na teanga seo agus is fearr liom agus tá fhios ag an tAire is fearr liom údarás tofa ná údarás place men. But níl ach nóiméad fágtha agam.

12/03/2014P02400Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): Nóiméad ar an chlog seo.

12/03/2014P02500Senator Sean D. Barrett: Tá sé imithe anois. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit agus tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leis an stráitéis.

12/03/2014P02600Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): The Minister of State will be leaving when the Senator is finished. We will then adjourn the debate until the next day.

12/03/2014P02700Senator David Norris: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, agus gabhaim buíochas mór leis mo chara, an Seanadóir de Bairéad, cúpla nóiméad a thabhairt dom. Is díospóireacht an- tábhachtach atá againn an maidin seo sa Seanad. Is fíor an seanfhocal “gan teanga, gan tír”. Teanga Eorpach stairiúil is ea an Ghaeilge le litríocht álainn go mór mhór na dánta aoibhinn tríd na bliana agus na leabhair ón oileán speisialta, Oileán an Bhlascaoid Mhóir, Fiche Bliain Ag Fás, Peig agus An t-Oileánach. Nuair a bhí mé ar scoil seasca bliain ó shin bhí máistir go han-mhaith Gaeilge ann, Prionsias Mac Paidir ó Chorcaigh, agus tar éis na ranganna Mhic Phai- dir bhí grá mór don teanga agam. Ach tá cúis brón amháin agam, mar tá an cló Gaelach deas stairiúil caillte. Ba mhaith liom, cosúil le mo chara an Seanadóir de Bairéid, an páirt a ghlac na daoine Protastúnacha sa teanga, an Bhanríon Éilís I, an tEaspag Bedell agus Coláiste na Tríonóide a lua. An chéad leabhar a bhí foilsithe sa Ghaeilge a d’úsáid an cló Gaelach, the first printed book in Irish, which is in the library in Trinity College Dublin, was commissioned by Queen Elizabeth I, who developed the font. It is a great shame that we have lost it. I gColáiste na Tríonóide freisin, bhí an chéad Ollamh Gaeilge sa domhan.

1 o’clock

12/03/2014Q00100Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): Tá nóiméad amháin fágtha.

12/03/2014Q00400Senator David Norris: In that case, gabh mo leithscéal. I will use English because I would not be as quick in Irish and must gallop through this contribution.

There is much to be hopeful about as far as I am concerned. The other day when I was 397 Seanad Éireann listening to the wireless I heard a lad from Ring, a middle-aged lad actually, who was teaching surfing through Irish. He found all types of people who were fascinated by this and the idea of a really cool activity being moderated through Irish gave them inspiration.

President Michael D. Higgins was involved in the establishment of TG4, which is wonderful and about the best channel there is. It has superb programmes. It is a pity, however, that we have lost some Irish language publishers. I believe Sáirséal agus Dill is gone. We need to ensure there is such publishing. I have a book on the Battle of Clontarf, in which my ances- tors, I am very glad to say, wisely took part on both sides in order that they could claim victory whatever happened. I noticed it is possible to publish old Icelandic, which is very rare and has characteristic letters that do not exist anywhere else such as thorn which I am describing with my finger. Why did we abandon our distinctive characters?

I send good wishes to George Morrison, the great film director, who has had another stroke. He made “Mise Éire” and “Saoirse” and commissioned the great Irish composer, Seán Ó Riada, for the wonderful music. It is wonderful for people of my age to see BBC television broadcast regularly in Irish.

I apologise to Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh because if anybody should have had an opportunity to speak today it is he, as his Irish is so beautiful and it was he who arranged this morning’s event which, unfortunately, I was unable to attend.

12/03/2014Q00500Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Go raibh míle maith agat.

12/03/2014Q00600Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): Absolutely; I had a word with the good Sena- tor.

Sitting suspended at 1.05 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

12/03/2014R00100Energy Policy: Motion

12/03/2014R00200Senator David Cullinane: I move:

That Seanad Éireann –

- rejects the memorandum of understanding signed by the Minister for Communica- tions, Energy and Natural Resources with the British Government to export energy from renewable sources from Ireland;

- acknowledges renewable energy sources are valuable natural resources that belong to the people of Ireland and that the Government has a duty to ensure any benefit accruing from them must benefit the people of the State;

- acknowledges that the Twenty-Six Counties has agreed binding targets of at least 16% of all energy consumed in the State to be from renewable energy sources by the year 2020 under Directive 2009/28/EC;

- accepts that exporting sustainable energy and importing fossil fuel before these targets are met is counterproductive in that it acts as a barrier to meeting Directive 2009/28/ 398 12 March 2014 EC;

- believes a target for self-sufficiency from renewable sources should be set in line with realistic projections for growth in the generation of energy from onshore and offshore wind, wave and tidal power, and other renewables such as hydro and geothermal;

- accepts that greater emphasis should be placed on developing renewable sources other than wind and that the potential in energy generated from the sea is recognised;

- recognises that the rising cost of fuel bills disproportionately impacts marginalised groups such as the elderly, disabled and low income families and acknowledges the role domestic energy production could play in the reduction of energy costs;

- understands there is a groundswell of public opposition to the erection of electricity pylons as reflected by the 35,000 submissions to EirGrid and that a fair and transparent consultation process has not taken place;

- accepts that early involvement of the public in projects and the provision of accurate and up to-date information and transparency is essential; that participation with the purpose of informing and gaining support from the public toward a project is a central pillar of good governance; and that communities have a democratic right to influence decision making;

- agrees that strict and comprehensive planning regulations must be applied to the erection of wind turbines and electricity pylons in Ireland;

- recommends the Government observe the precautionary approach in keeping with World Health Organization 2007 guidelines when constructing new electricity supply installations and in relation to high voltage lines;

- recommends the Government adopt a precautionary approach in the construction of new alternating-current power lines; that new power lines should not be built close to residential areas or day-care institutions; and that the distance required should be de- termined on the basis of a specific assessment of the individual project and the fields to which the inhabitants will be exposed;

- acknowledges that the Irish landscape is unique in its natural beauty and a significant national resource in aesthetic, environmental, and economic terms and that the construction of any major infrastructural project must take these factors into account;

- calls for a cost-benefit analysis of undergrounding electricity pylons to be undertaken;

- calls for the undergrounding of electricity pylons, where possible;

- calls for a moratorium on the erection of electricity pylons and wind turbines until a comprehensive all-Ireland policy is in place; and

- calls for the creation and implementation of an all-Ireland energy policy that clearly states how our renewable energy targets will be reached; what infrastructure is needed for the development of renewable energy sources; how renewable sources can be developed on an all-Ireland basis and how renewable sources can best serve the energy needs

399 Seanad Éireann of Irish people.

Notice taken that 12 Members were not present; House counted and 12 Members being present,

12/03/2014R00400Senator David Cullinane: I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Envi- ronment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Fergus O’Dowd, to debate this important motion. We tabled the motion to be helpful and constructive. There is considerable public concern about energy policy, specifically in regard to industrial wind turbines, overhead power lines and the plans by Eirgrid to expand the electricity grid across various parts of the State. These justified concerns have been articulated in submissions by members of the public and campaigning groups in response to EirGrid’s Grid Link project for the south, the west and the south east and the North-South interconnector.

There appears to be a problem with this Government’s approach to proper decision making. On too many occasions we have seen the Government jump with two feet into projects without considering alternatives that in the long term might cause fewer problems and even save money. For example, Sinn Féin made alternative proposals on water charges and if the Government had listened it may not have ended up with the controversy of spending massive amounts of money on consultant fees or the debacle we saw in Irish Water. There appears to be a pattern in the way in which this Government approaches policy and decision making. There is an unhealthy contempt for Opposition views and alternative. The Government seems to want to plough on with what it considers the best policies, which are not always the best policies, regardless of the concerns of those who live in communities and the Opposition in general. We have seen the same issue arise in regard to the construction of pylons and wind turbines. If the Government had been willing to listen to alternative proposals, it might not have found itself in the position in which it is and it may have ended up with a much smoother path in governing and in realising the energy policies at which we all want to arrive.

More than 35,000 people made submissions to EirGrid on the pylon projects, which is un- precedented. A huge number of people made the effort to make a submission. Many people in my county of Waterford made submissions and not only people directly affected by EirGrid’s plans - the erection of pylons up to 43 m high and high voltage overhead powerlines and those who live in close proximity to them - but many people who live far away from the proposed routes who are angry and do not agree with putting these pylons through the heart of the Lis- more area in Waterford and the heart of the Comeragh Mountains, for example. Many people see it as an act of vandalism and completely unnecessary. Those concerns were clearly articulated in the submissions made by members of the public on EirGrid’s plans. They emphasise public opinion on the matter.

Considering the multitude of views, it is imperative the Government takes account of all of the views on pylons and the possible effects they can have on the communities through which they pass. People have many concerns, including the potential health risks, the impact on the value of land, on livestock and on farms and the imposition on the natural landscape and on the built heritage. I gave the example of the Comeragh Mountains. Many people who recognise the beauty of the Comeragh Mountains do not want to see them spoiled by pylons of up to 43 m in height in a string going right through the heart of those mountains, or, indeed, through the beautiful area of Lismore, the midlands or anywhere in the south east, whether County Wicklow, County Wexford or wherever the planned routes are. People do not want to see their landscape spoiled by these pylons, if it is unnecessary and if there are alternatives, to which I 400 12 March 2014 want to get.

I do not believe the Government has properly investigated the alternatives. I certainly do not believe EirGrid has given any serious consideration at all to the alternatives. In fact, it has been very closed in its mind and in its opinion in regard to the undergrounding of cables. It is interesting that six years ago when this first became a big issue with the North-South interconnector, EirGrid was on record as saying that going underground could not technically be done and that it was an impossibility. It also said that even if it could be done, it would be 20 times more expensive. Now it has shifted its position and has said it is technically possible and that it is approximately three times more expensive. That is a considerable shift in its position in a short space of time.

That tells me there are two issues and two conclusions we can draw from this. First, EirGrid was wrong six years ago when it stated it was 20 times more expensive and that it could not be done, which then begs the question as to whether it is wrong now. Second, perhaps it was right and that six years ago, it was 20 times more expensive but the technology has improved and it is possible. That is what we are asking the Government to consider. Technology is changing all the time and more countries are looking at different options and are not going for the overground high voltage power lines of the size and scale envisaged in all of these projects.

This is about asking the Government to listen. It is not about it pretending to listen or thank- ing the public for submissions, but saying it is ploughing ahead anyway. That is not consultation and listening to communities or the way Governments should govern. The Government must listen to the people who live in this State and who have genuine concerns, which they have articulated. As with so many issues, the Government parties should also live up to the promises and the pledges they made when in opposition. There is no doubt that in the north west and in counties in that region which are directly affected by EirGrid’s plans, Fine Gael was very vocal in opposing what was being proposed at that time by EirGrid and the North-South interconnector. Now things have changed because it is in government, as is the Labour Party. It is a case of ploughing ahead, unquestioning of EirGrid’s plans.

The ASKON report identified alternatives to what is envisaged by EirGrid. The report on undergrounding, published in October 2008, made a number of findings. It found underground cables were better suited to integrating the existing grid network, that they were more reliable, that the transmission loss from underground cabling was significantly less than from - over ground, that underground cables were safer, that there were obvious environmental benefits to undergrounding and that undergrounding could be established at an affordable course with the worst case scenario of €1 per household per year. Surely this report is worthy of consideration and is one which should cause us to reflect on policy and ask ourselves if we should rush in and invest all the money in pylons of this size and scale when in a couple of years’ time, technology may have advanced again. One should bear in mind what I said about EirGrid’s position six years ago and its position now. What happens in five years time if we are in a position where this can be done even more cheaply and technology has improved even further but we are left with these pylons and not able to do anything about them? That would be disastrous for the State.

I would like to deal with industrial wind turbines, which are causing major concerns for communities. Wind turbines will be dealt with when Sinn Féin launches its Wind Turbine Regulation Bill 2014 tomorrow. That Bill aims to impose a minimum set back distance for wind turbines of ten times their height from dwellings and it deals with proper zoning of sites 401 Seanad Éireann for wind turbine developments. The Bill addresses the export of wind energy to Britain before Irish energy demands are met. That is central to our motion in terms of the memorandum of understanding with Britain on the export of energy created from renewable sources.

At a time when we are importing energy from fossil fuels from outside this State, we should not be exporting to Britain, or anywhere else, energy created from the natural resources of this State. That is a major concern to the people. The renewable energies of this State should serve the people of this State, who should come first and not people in Britain or anywhere else. This must be for the benefit of this State and the natural resources must be used for the people of the State.

That goes right to the heart of the argument against the development of massive wind turbines in the midlands region, that is, for-profit wind turbines exporting energy. The energy produced from the turbines proposed for the midlands cannot be connected to the Irish grid, meaning that the gross energy produced would be exported to Britain. Ireland has renewable energy targets to reach and domestic consumers have witnessed their energy bills rising but the Minister is proposing to export our renewable energy production to Britain. However, it is clear that its development must be in the interests of the Irish people and become part of domestic energy production.

I will listen to the Minister’s contribution and those of his colleagues, but I am very much of the view that we should reflect on what people and communities are saying and develop an energy policy that makes sense and benefits the Irish people and puts them first. That is what our motion is about. I hope we can have a constructive debate on the merits of our motion and view on Government policy.

12/03/2014S00200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an rún seo atá curtha chun cinn ag mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir Cullinane. Ba mhaith liom buíochas freisin a ghlacadh leis an gCeannaire as ucht an t-am seo a thabhairt dúinn le haghaidh an rúin a chur chun cinn. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Ós rud é go bhfuil Seachtain na Gaeilge ar siúl faoi láthair, tá súil agam go mbeidh ar a laghad cúpla focal againn ar an ábhar seo i nGaeilge. Sílim go mbai- neann an rún seo lenár bhflaitheas náisiúnta. Tá cuid mhaith cainte déanta ag an Rialtas seo fao- inár bhflaitheas eacnamaíochta a fháil ar ais arís. Baineann cúrsaí cumhachta lenár bhflaitheas chomh maith céanna. Ba cheart go mbeimid in ann seasamh ar ár dhá chos féin sa chomhthéacs seo. Tá sé sin mar cheann de na húdair a bhfuilimid ag cur an rúin seo chun cinn inniu.

Sinn Féin will launch the Wind Turbine Regulation Bill 2014 tomorrow. The Bill deals with a number of failings by the Government to properly regulate the construction of industrial wind turbines. The Bill also attempts to impose proper regulation of all aspects of wind turbine construction. This includes proper zoning of areas for wind turbine developments, the duties of planning authorities, set-back distances and the responsibility of decommissioning wind turbines. Many residents in the midlands and throughout the country have been rightly concerned about proper set back distances of wind turbines from property. The Bill seeks to impose a setback distance of ten times the height of the turbine from any dwelling for turbines that are higher than 25 m but industrial turbines are not the only issue. In Connemara, which is probably one of the most picturesque areas of the country, planning permission has been granted for hundreds of wind turbines in an area of scenic amenity. We are witnessing the privatisation of wind, which is a natural resource. This has happened because of a lack of guidelines and regulation up to now, a charge which cannot only be levied at the Government, and a lack of action by the previous Government. One lady bought her dream house in Connemara on a small farm. 402 12 March 2014 Three separate planning permissions were then granted, which means that approximately 70 wind turbines will be built all around her. This is a disgrace. It is unfair because it is being done with a sleight of hand and some people think there is collusion between the local authority, the planning people and the private enterprise developing these projects. A number of the planning applications for projects such as these were supported by people who used to work with the local authorities and who know the inside track on the guidelines in question.

Proper regulation should be in place but the Bill seeks to rectify the mistakes made by the current and previous Governments. Two Bills were published by Deputy Willie Penrose and Senator John Kelly who has raised the issue on many occasions, but the Government has even turned a blind eye to them. It is important that there is correct management of renewable energy produced in Ireland. Ireland has binding targets for renewable energy that it must reach by 2020. The State still meets most of its energy demand from imported fossil fuels. Any renewable energy produced here should be used to lessen the fuel bills that are a burden on many households. The Bill seeks to ensure the State’s energy demands are met prior to renewable energy being exported - muid ag seasamh ar ár gcosa féin i ndáiríre i dtosach báire agus ár bhflaitheas á choinneáil.

Proper planning is essential for developments in rural Ireland. The Government cannot ignore local communities that have concerns about the development of wind turbines. The Bill also seeks to address many of these concerns and it is our hope that the Government will accept it. There are also concerns surrounding farmers who have signed contracts with wind energy companies. This has also involved a sleight of hand where they have been practically gagged and asked to sign with the promise of moneys in the future in order that they will not speak to those living around them. Divide and conquer has been the strategy of many of the energy companies. There must be clarity around land access and land use and the farming community must be made fully aware of the consequences of signing contracts with these companies.

There needs to be a diversification of renewable sources and we cannot be dependent on onshore wind energy. In the European Union hydro power accounts for 48% of electricity generated from renewables; wind, 26%; biomass, 19%; solar, 7%; geothermal, 1%; and tidal and wave, less than 0.1%. Norway is almost 100% self-sufficient in producing electricity from hydro power. The country is also exemplary in the way it has treated its oil and gas resources. The Government still has not implemented the recommendations of an Oireachtas joint committee regarding the oil and gas industry. The Minister of State might comment on when it intends to do that. The latest media reports have said the current and previous Governments have given the most favourable terms to oil and gas companies prospecting off our coast. If we had the savvy of the Norwegians to ensure national rights were put before those of private companies, we might not be in our current predicament.

No country is self-sufficient in electricity generation using wind energy. Denmark now generates more than 30% of its electricity from wind energy and exports more than 12 billion kW per year. Achieving self-sufficiency in electricity from renewables is a key target for the country. There are, however, critiques of the economics of electricity exports, including in Denmark, which may be relevant to future planning in Ireland. Bhí mé i gCeanada dhá bhliain ó shin agus chonaic mé go bhfuil an-obair á dhéanamh ansin maidir le forbairt fuinneamh na dtonn. Sílim gur áis é sin go bhféadfaimis breathnú air i bhfad níos mó. Déantar go leor den fhorbairt i gCeanada i gcomhair leis na pobail áitiúla. Mar shampla, in áit a bhfuil deontas tugtha do phobal áitiúil le turbines a chur faoin uisce, maidir leis an sruth a bhíonn ag teacht isteach agus amach, is féidir leis na pobail sin brabach a dhéanamh dóibh féin as an bhfuin- 403 Seanad Éireann neamh a ghintear a úsáid go háitiúil agus an bhreis leictreachais a úsáid le haghaidh rudaí a chur chun cinn ina bpobal féin.

We oppose fracking on the island and have tabled the motion in good faith.

12/03/2014T00200Senator Tony Mulcahy: I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after “That” and substitute the following:

Seanad Éireann –

- acknowledges that Irish energy policy is designed to meet the overriding concerns of security of supply, sustainability and cost competitiveness;

- acknowledges that Ireland has agreed as a binding target under EU law that at least 16% of all energy consumed must be from renewable energy sources by the year 2020;

- recognises that both the import and export of electricity, including electricity from renewable sources, will be a feature of an interconnected European single electricity market and that the Government, the regulatory authorities and industry must plan accordingly;

- acknowledges that the memorandum of understanding signed by the Irish and UK Energy Ministers in January 2013 sent a strong signal of our shared interest in exploring the opportunity to export green electricity from Ireland to Britain;

- further recognises that any scenario for the future of Irish energy beyond 2020, regardless of EU targets, will accordingly include a vital role for energy from indigenous renewable sources both in the domestic and export markets;

- acknowledges that renewable energy is a valuable natural resource and that the Government has a duty to safeguard a fair share of any benefits from its exploitation for the people and the State;

- accepts that exporting renewable energy is entirely compatible with meeting the targets imposed by EU law;

- believes a cost-effective ambition for meeting domestic energy demand from renewable sources should be set in line with realistic projections for growth in the generation of energy from onshore and offshore wind, wave and tidal power, and other renewables such as hydro and geothermal;

- welcomes the recent publication by the Government of the offshore renewable energy development plan which provides the framework for sustainable exploitation of our offshore wind, wave and tidal resource and the commitment by the Government of €26 million to support research in wave and tidal power;

- welcomes the Government’s close attention to securing value for money in the design and roll-out of the renewable energy feed In tariffs in order that unsustainable supports and unjustified profits are avoided;

- recognises that the rising cost of fuel disproportionately impacts on those on low income and acknowledges the role energy production from domestic sources could play 404 12 March 2014 in reducing energy costs, while further acknowledging that improving the thermal efficiency of homes remains the most cost-effective way of increasing energy affordability and reducing energy poverty;

- welcomes the Government’s July 2012 policy statement on the strategic importance of transmission and other energy infrastructure which underlined that early involvement of the public in energy infrastructure projects and the provision of accurate and up to- date information and transparency is essential; that participation with the purpose of informing and gaining support from the public toward a project is a central pillar of good governance; and that communities have a democratic right to influence decision making;

- agrees that strict and comprehensive planning regulations must be applied to the erection of wind turbines and electricity pylons;

- acknowledges that new electricity supply grid infrastructure is both planned for and constructed in accordance with World Health Organization 2007 guidelines and EU and domestic law, in accordance with the precautionary principle;

- welcomes the fact that an analysis of options, both underground and overhead, for the transmission of high voltage electricity will be undertaken;

- welcomes the imminent publication of a Green Paper on Energy Policy that will, inter alia, further develop and build out a comprehensive and progressive suite of policies that clearly state how our renewable energy targets will be reached; what infrastructure is needed for the development of renewable energy sources; how renewable sources can be developed on an all-Ireland basis; and how renewable sources can best serve the energy needs of Irish people; and

- looks forward to a public debate based on an accurate examination of the facts and issues and rejects ill-informed and populist political sloganeering and scaremongering on issues of such vital national importance.

Will the previous speakers outline what they favour rather than what they are against? The motion needs to be corrected. It refers to undergrounding electricity pylons, but it should refer to undergrounding cables.

I welcome the Minister of State. The events of the past few days may have taken the wind out of our friends of Sinn Féin, given the decision of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources regarding wind turbines. They have dug up a previous motion tabled last November about pylons and putting cables underground. The motion is an exercise in playing to the gallery with the upcoming local and European elections firmly in mind. Sinn Féin is against everything but in favour of nothing. Perhaps the party’s Senators can enlighten us as to what we can do.

I welcome the opportunity to educate them about the real world. The motion contains 16 statements but the Minister has dealt with the first statement in that nothing will happen until everything is agreed in respect of turbines. I support the Government’s aim to allow for the

405 Seanad Éireann export of electricity to Britain and further afield if it will create jobs and wealth in the State and I have a history of saying this. I will refer to the motion statement by statement. I agree with a number of them, including the second statement. Where resources are bought at a fair price, they become the property of the purchaser. We live in a free market economy. There is no argument with the third statement. With regard to the fourth statement, I prefer the Min- ister’s comments on this matter. When negotiations are finalised, I envisage that the private sector will fill any void in the production of energy for the domestic market with the surplus available for export but this is a number of years away. ESB International and Vattenfall, one of Europe’s largest electricity utilities, have entered an agreement to develop ocean energy on the west coast.

Bioenergy and biomass should have been included in the motion, but they have been left out for some reason, although Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh acknowledged this. The fifth statement is debatable. There are serious concerns about the erection of wind turbines in close proximity to homes. There are also worries about flicker and perceived noise. The setback distances will be legislated for and many of the concerns can be addressed. Wind has benefits, as evidenced by the volume of energy created this winter, which has put downward pressure on wholesale electricity prices. The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland stated renewables have saved the country €1 billion on imported fossil fuels in the past five years.

The sixth statement is correct. The Government’s better energy warmer homes scheme is having a positive impact on reducing fuel poverty among vulnerable customers and we will continue with the scheme. A total of 104,000 homes have benefited under the scheme at a cost of €16 million with another 10,000 to be completed this year.

12/03/2014T00300Senator Thomas Byrne: Most of those were completed under the previous Government.

12/03/2014T00400Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Senator Tony Mulcahy to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014T00500Senator Tony Mulcahy: But they are being done now. I cannot accept the seventh statement. The Minister has appointed an independent panel of experts chaired by Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness. I have immense respect for this former Supreme Court judge. Her work will be transparent and the panel’s terms of reference will be above reproach.

With regard to the 35,000 submissions that, I assume, oppose the erection of pylons, we import €6 billion worth of fossil fuels every year and we need to offset some of this with renewables. However, if we generate electricity from tidal, wave or wind power in the west, how will it be transported to the other side of the country without a robust national grid of lines and pylons?

3 o’clock

Electrons need to flow; they cannot be stored or transported by road; therefore, people need to sit down and rethink that one.

The eighth statement is common sense and is a continuation of the seventh statement. The ninth statement ties in with what I have already said on the fifth statement. The tenth and 11th statements are related. It is obvious that EirGrid and the energy providers would not put their customers at any risk through the construction of that infrastructure. In respect of the 2007 World Health Organization guidelines, the National Radiation Laboratory in New Zealand ac- 406 12 March 2014 knowledged in a 2008 report the results of studies that found a weak association between EMF field exposures and the risk of childhood leukaemia, but considered that the results were too tenuous and lacking support from other sources to form the basis of exposure guidelines. Fur- thermore, the report stated that other recent reviews, including the 2007 WHO review, came to the same conclusion, and found that the data currently available did not justify setting more stringent exposure limits. The WHO also recommended that very low cost precautionary measures be taken to reduce exposures to magnetic fields.

I can accept the 12th, 13th and 14th statements, but we have to be realistic. In County Clare, we have two of the biggest power lines in the country. These two separate 400 kV lines run from Moneypoint and continue across the country, ending up on the outskirts of the capital. They deliver much-needed electricity to Ireland. I do not hear anyone roaring and shouting about those lines in County Clare, and I have been living there for the last 36 years, or asking for them now to be put underground. A 400 kV high-voltage cable can transport three times as much electricity as a 220 kV cable; therefore, we can reduce the number of 220 kV and 110 kV cables by moving to bigger cables. About 2,000 km of cables are to be upgraded, so the older cables can be removed from lots of places.

No one wants high voltage electricity cables affecting the landscape, but we have to look at the bigger picture. Do we want no power lines? Perhaps we should start a de-electrification process here and we can go back to the candle and the oil lamp. Many people around the country found out how hard it was to operate without power cables 40 or 50 years ago, but when the cables were cut in the recent storms we saw another disaster. Even this morning in parts of County Clare we had power cuts from 7 a.m to 9 a.m. Imagine all those parents trying to organise their children and get them out to school without any power. We have a grid that has to be upgraded and connected to the rest of Europe for security of supply.

12/03/2014U00200Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator has run out of power because he is half a minute over time.

12/03/2014U00300Senator Tony Mulcahy: Just look at the antics of Mr. Putin in so-called democratic Rus- sia-----

12/03/2014U00400Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am sticking rigidly to the time slots today.

12/03/2014U00500Senator Tony Mulcahy: I knew it would be difficult to get everything done in six minutes.

12/03/2014U00600Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator has made his point.

12/03/2014U00700Senator Thomas Byrne: There has been so much confusion and misinformation on this issue, much of it coming from the Government.

12/03/2014U00800Senator Ivana Bacik: I do not think-----

12/03/2014U00900Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Senator Thomas Byrne to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014U01000Senator Thomas Byrne: Is that not what one tends to do during elections? We heard the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources announcing last week, conve- niently timed for the local elections, that the deal with England was off. Members of this House and other people I met were literally dancing for joy that the deal was called off on Thursday or Friday. 407 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014U01100Senator John Gilroy: Were they all Fianna Fáil people?

12/03/2014U01200Senator Thomas Byrne: They were colleagues of the Senator-----

12/03/2014U01300Senator John Gilroy: They were more or less Fianna Fáil people.

12/03/2014U01400Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Senator Thomas Byrne to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014U01500Senator Thomas Byrne: They were decent people who were consistent on this issue. They were over the moon, but I told one of them to wait and see, and how right I was. One only had to read the newspapers at the weekend to see that one of the companies was fully going ahead with this, and I believe Bord na Móna has since come out and stated that it is fully behind it as well. I understand the Taoiseach was in Downing Street yesterday trying to push the memorandum of understanding and the export deal on the turbines. That was on the agenda yesterday in Downing Street. When Fine Gael councillors, Deputies and Senators are going around the country saying that this is terrible, that we will have to have meetings with the Min- ister and say something to the Taoiseach, the reality is that this is policy, for better or worse, that has been driven by the Government at the highest levels. It is about time the Government, in all its forms, spoke with one voice on it.

The anti-pylon campaign was led by the Fine Gael Party when it was in opposition, and it was still prominently involved in the early stages of the lifetime of this Government.

12/03/2014U01600Senator John Gilroy: They are in the Fianna Fáil Party now, I see.

12/03/2014U01700Senator Thomas Byrne: I have a consistent position on this issue. I have always felt they should be put underground and that they are a terrible imposition on the landscape. They are causing huge stress, worry and anxiety, as are the wind turbines in large parts of rural Ireland. We must have a proper debate on this. We must have a debate on the facts. We cannot have a debate when the decision is made. We cannot have a debate which says that An Bord Pleanála will decide, because An Bord Pleanála has to have regard to Government policy and we know what Government policy is. It starts and ends with the Government. We in the Oireachtas must try to shine a light on what is happening and on where the pressure is coming from, because there is a lot of pressure to move this project on.

Wind energy has a huge place in our future and it is necessary to have it, as long as it is not an imposition on the citizens of this country, as long as people do not have to suffer due to turbines beside them, and as long as they do not have to put up with this. There are many places in this country where turbines can be erected to help our own economic development and our own quest for renewable energy sources, whether we want to export the energy or not.

The issues of pylons and turbines are interconnected, even though each party claims they are totally separate. When the pylon project in County Meath and County Cavan was first enun- ciated six and a half years ago, it was specifically for the export of renewable energy. It was about bringing the wind energy down from Donegal at the time. Now that has been dropped and it has been said that we do not need it and it is just to reinforce the local and regional grid. They have chopped and changed. Senator Tony Mulcahy made the point that we cannot let the lights go out. EirGrid claimed something similar in County Meath six and a half years ago; the company claimed that if the project did not go ahead, there would be power cuts by 2011 and 2012. It did not happen, so the question is whether we can believe that. I certainly do not want 408 12 March 2014 to stand in the way of infrastructure development, but the pylon issue has been outlined well by Senator David Cullinane.

We were told at the beginning that it was impossible to put the lines underground. We were then told that it would be 25 times the cost. Then we got a Government report which stated that it was three times the cost, and I give credit to the Government for carrying out that report. The technology is constantly changing and should be examined. I do not know if the Minister can give us any update on the Catherine McGuinness commission and whether that commission is including the North-South line, because I have not heard whether it is. Perhaps I have missed something, but it seems that was put to the commission some time ago.

12/03/2014U01800Senator Terry Brennan: On a point of information-----

12/03/2014U01900Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): There is no such thing as a point of information.

12/03/2014U02000Senator Terry Brennan: Gabh mo leithscéal. I just wanted to provide clarification. We are talking about putting pylons underground.

12/03/2014U02100Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): When the Senator has an opportunity to speak, he can make that point. Senator Thomas Byrne to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014U02200Senator Thomas Byrne: The motion covers two issues, which are interconnected. I will provide examples in County Meath. The parish of Kilbeg and Staholmog and the parishes of Oristown and Kilberry, with all those rural parishes around Kells, are at the intersection of these turbine projects and the pylon projects. The pylons are going from north to south and the turbines are effectively going from east to west. That is an issue that has not been examined by the Government. Certain parts of the country seem to be a magnet for these things, because certain people want to bring them to those areas and many people do not.

Renewable energy must be part of the solution; only yesterday I called for a debate on climate change. It was outrageous to make a connection between pylons and climate change and I think the Green Party did this. There is no connection whatsoever, and we must get it out that we can support serious efforts to combat climate change but not equate that with a necessity to put up pylons. If renewable energy is obtained from wind, it can be put underground also, but there are other ways to generate and distribute electricity.

There have been a huge number of applications for wind farms. It is a crazy situation when three projects are competing with each other. I presume they cannot all get the go-ahead, but people on each of those projects will individually will say that the others are really unprofes- sional and do not have a hope. The reality is that the three projects cannot go ahead. Certain people are getting their hopes up that it will go ahead, because obviously there is an economic benefit to them and I certainly have no problem with this. I have said it at public meetings and encourage people to have respect for their neighbours and adhere to the planning process.

12/03/2014U02300Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator is just on time. I will give him some injury time.

12/03/2014U02400Senator Thomas Byrne: Go raibh maith agat. Na mór phointí arís: caithfidh an Rialtas a bheith soiléir leis an bpobal cad tá ag tárlú anseo. Ní féidir leis an Rialtas dul ar aghaidh muna bhfuil an Rialtas soiléir. Tá a lán ráitis ag teacht ón Aire, an Teachta Rabbitte, atá trína chéile.

409 Seanad Éireann Cén stádas atá ag an aontas nó memorandum of understanding seo idir an dá Rialtas?

12/03/2014V00200Senator Terry Brennan: Ní féidir leis an ngobadán an dá thrá a fhreastal.

12/03/2014V00300Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): According to my instructions, Senator Mary Ann O’Brien is the next speaker.

12/03/2014V00400Senator Mary Ann O’Brien: I welcome the Sinn Féin motion and the opportunity for us all to debate and discuss this rather serious subject. The London School of Economics, LSE, published a report in February. The LSE is an entirely independent body which has published several pro-wind-energy reports. This one examines 1 million property sales over a one-year period. The value of houses within 2 km of wind turbines was slashed by 11%. Where I live in Kildare the average house price is approximately €245,000, so that represents a slash of €27,000 per property. Apart from fears for their health and for the landscape, many people are worried about this. Will they be compensated? One Sinn Féin Senator mentioned a lady who had saved all her life to buy her dream home in Connemara. What happens to such a person? Does she get compensation?

It is a savage intrusion on our enjoyment of the visual beauty of our countryside and a savage threat to tourism. The problem of wind energy and pylons starts with the citizens who pay tax, not with the Government. All of us here today, and those who are not here, are aware of this subject because one cannot step outside one’s door without somebody talking about it.

If there was a pylon within 50 m of the Minister of State’s home, and his children or grandchildren lived there, would he be happy? There are many studies of the health concerns, argu- ing for and against cause and effect. Writing in The Irish Times, Dick Ahlstrom said, “Many objectors to the Grid25 pylon project will have cited cancer risks as their major cause of concern.” He referred to a study conducted recently in France, published in the British Journal of Cancer last April, which included all 2,779 cases of acute leukaemia that occurred there between 2002 and 2007, and went on to say:

It showed children had a 70 per cent increased risk of this rare condition if they lived within 50 metres of high voltage power lines of the kind causing controversy in Ireland. It also showed there was no increased risk for children living 50 metres or more from these lines.

I know the Minister of State will respond by quoting some European study, because there are so many studies, but how would he feel if he or his children or grandchildren lived near a pylon? If there is even a shred of doubt about whether these pylons might cause illness in any citizen, young or old, we cannot even begin to think of letting a pylon be built within 50 m of a home.

The motion calls for a cost-benefit analysis. It is welcome that the Government has commissioned a report. We have heard that it costs 3.5 times as much to put the cables underground as above ground. Can we please see the quotes for both tenders, underground and above ground, in black and white? When will that be available? When will the Government study be complete and ready for us to examine?

12/03/2014V00500Senator Ivana Bacik: I welcome the Minister of State. I am delighted to second the Gov- ernment’s amendment to the motion. There is a great deal of confusion about this issue, notably in the text of the Sinn Féin motion, which calls for the undergrounding of electricity pylons, 410 12 March 2014 which gives rise to some bizarre images.

12/03/2014V00600Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): That might have to be corrected.

12/03/2014V00700Senator Ivana Bacik: There is a more serious misunderstanding underlying the text of the motion: the conflation of, or confusion between, the memorandum of understanding, to which others have referred, and the development of EirGrid and the national transmission system. The Minister, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, has made clear, as I am sure the Minister of State will, that plans to develop the grid have nothing to do with the proposed export projects. These are separate matters.

Two distinct imperatives underlie Government energy policy, which are reflected in the Government amendment. The first is the imperative to have a modern, developed, energy system to attract investment and jobs, as well as to provide people with the living standards to which they are accustomed. As Senator Tony Mulcahy pointed out, the storms demonstrated people’s vulnerability to interruptions in power supply. We need a developed energy infrastructure.

The second imperative is mentioned in the Sinn Féin motion and the Government amendment. The language in both is very similar.

12/03/2014V00800Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: We are not against everything.

12/03/2014V00900Senator Ivana Bacik: Sinn Féin is not quite against everything, but I will address that issue.

12/03/2014V01000Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: The Senator is a little confused.

12/03/2014V01100Senator Ivana Bacik: Senator Tony Mulcahy’s question was a fair one: “What exactly is Sinn Féin for?”

The second imperative is to increase the proportion of energy we derive from renewable sources. That is very clear. We have agreed as a binding target under EU law that at least 16% of all energy consumed must come from renewable sources by 2020. Those targets were hard- won. I believe passionately in environmental issues. I was one of the founder members of Friends of the Earth in Ireland and brought the first climate protection Bill to this House in 2007 as a Private Members’ Bill. I am very proud that the Government is working on the Climate Change Bill. It is important that we stick to our targets for tackling climate change and carbon emissions. If we want to meet those targets, reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and tackle the problem of fuel poverty, as mentioned in the Government amendment, we must develop the necessary infrastructure to do so. That is why it is deeply frustrating to hear the Sinn Féin members talk about their commitment to green energy and meeting our targets while opposing any plans to develop the infrastructure we need to meet those targets and produce energy sufficient for our purposes. That is where there is a gap of logic in the motion.

12/03/2014V01200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: The Senator is misreading it.

12/03/2014V01300Senator Ivana Bacik: It is a gap in the logic of many who regularly speak against wind turbines and electricity pylons and deliberately conflate those issues. We have to be clear about the need to develop a modern energy infrastructure and to put forward constructive ideas about how to do so. That is what the Government amendment does. It recognises that important regulations need to be put in place. Senator Cullinane mentioned the Bill the Labour Senators 411 Seanad Éireann introduced on wind turbines and ensuring they are not erected close to residences. That is fair. As the Government amendment acknowledges, we need strict and comprehensive planning regulations to be applied to wind turbines and electricity pylons.

Senator Mary Ann O’Brien spoke eloquently about the need to ensure there are no adverse health implications. That is recognised in the Government amendment. The infrastructure must be constructed in accordance with the principles of the World Health Organization. There are regulations that must be put in place. It is very important, however, that we proceed with the plans to develop the necessary infrastructure. Energy policy must be allowed to proceed within the reasonable framework of which I have spoken, and public debate on it must be informed. There has been much ill-informed sloganeering on this issue, which we need to address. The motion raises other issues which the amendment addresses adequately such as the development of offshore sources. On 7 February the Minister published the offshore renewable energy development plan, which will seek to explore the development of those areas. It is absolutely clear that we are all in favour of this. We also need to develop our bioenergy sources. That is important. In terms of Grid Link, others have acknowledged the independent panel of experts, chaired by Ms Justice Catherine McGuinness, which is due to report. That is a fair approach to take to develop infrastructure in accordance with the safeguards I mentioned.

The memorandum of understanding is somewhat confusingly placed in the Sinn Féin motion, which then refers to very different issues concerning EirGrid. The Minister spoke in this House and also in the Dáil about the memorandum of understanding. The memorandum was signed in January 2013 by the Minister and Edward Davey, MP, to send a signal of a shared interest in exploring the opportunity to export green electricity from Ireland to Britain. At all times the Minister made clear that if the export market was to be developed it would have to be done in such a way that there would be clear, realisable and significant benefits accruing to Ireland. He said that for Ireland to enter any intergovernmental agreement of that nature there would have to be benefits, which would need to include investment, jobs and growth. Senator Mary Ann O’Brien spoke about the cost-benefit analysis that would need to be completed. The Minister has said there are potential benefits, including jobs created, community gain, intercon- nection benefits, co-operation on tax receipts and rates paid to local authorities and a dividend of trade. Significant benefits could be delivered by an intergovernmental agreement for both Ireland and Britain. It could also significantly increase our renewable energy output.

There are very positive aspects to the proposal but, as the Minister said, there are many unresolved issues. Last week he made public his judgment that it was doubtful that the project could be delivered as envisaged, bearing in mind the timeframe of the lead-in to 2020 and the need to meet our targets by then, which would mean we would have to start to develop the infrastructure at this stage. It has been reported that the Taoiseach has said there is still hope the discussions can proceed, but he has also said it is unlikely that it will be possible to proceed according to the timescale originally set out. That is an ongoing issue but it is separate. The export market is separate to the development of our own energy infrastructure.

12/03/2014W00200Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator is way beyond her time.

12/03/2014W00300Senator Ivana Bacik: The Government amendment makes that very clear.

12/03/2014W00400Senator Sean D. Barrett: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O’Dowd. Look- ing at the Government’s amendment first, if I may, the second last paragraph states that the Government “welcomes the imminent publication of a Green Paper on Energy Policy that will, 412 12 March 2014 inter alia, further develop and build out a comprehensive and progressive suite of policies that clearly state how our renewable energy targets will be reached.” That has been lacking in the debate. I hope the Green Paper is imminent and that we get it soon, because a number of factors are changing rapidly in this area and we do need the numbers. For instance, we subsidise the ESB to use peat and then we prosecute individuals down the country who dig up the same peat. The numbers will show that the use of peat to generate electricity makes no economic sense and we may as well leave it to the small operators who sell it to people for domestic use. Let us see the numbers in that regard.

One must also bear in mind the success of fracking in the United States. I appreciate that many Members do not like it, but it is still a success for Ireland in that it has reduced the price of coal and gas on international markets. The Shannon natural energy group says that if it could land the gas in the Shannon Estuary and send it through the BGE network, that would reduce the country’s energy costs. If that is true, one must also take into account how that changes the relative competitiveness of what we have in mind already. Some of the suggested alternatives are starting to look excessively high cost by comparison with the new market in energy. I am sure the Minister of State will expedite the production of the numbers on which we are now working. Some of the numbers that are published would cast serious doubts on tidal energy. They have been trying to do that in the Bay of Fundy in eastern Canada for years and it has always proven to be uneconomical. Technically all of those things are possible, but the question we must ask is whether they make economic sense.

Paragraph 8 of the Government’s amendment states that it “welcomes the recent publication by the Government of the Offshore Renewable Energy Development Plan which provides the framework for sustainable exploitation of our offshore wind, wave and tidal resource”. I just do not know whether they are sustainable. Some of the costings we have received suggest that ocean generation of electricity could be twice as expensive as coal generation, three times as expensive as biomass generation and ten times as expensive as hydroelectricity. There is not much scope for new hydroelectric generation in Ireland. In addition, according to some estimates, offshore wind farms are extremely expensive to develop. In addition, there is a network cost. Let us see the numbers on all of the options. I do not mind spending money on research but we should not distort the competitiveness of the economy by getting ourselves involved in forms of electricity generation that do not make economic sense. I appeal to the Minister of State to provide the proper numbers on which we can base informed decisions as to whether various forms of electricity generation are worthwhile. Even in the United States, solar energy looks to be extremely expensive. Offshore wind looks to be uncompetitive, and with the reduction in the price of coal and gas, perhaps we have to look at the numbers again. If the numbers from the United States are correct, one could ask whether we need to change the network that much, because the coal could come in at low cost to Moneypoint, which is already connected up to the network, and gas can come in on the other side of the Shannon close to Tarbert, which is already connected up to the network.

When I hear of plans to build vast wind farms in the midlands, I wonder what are the numbers involved. Is it dependent on huge subsidies from the Department and from the electricity consumer? If so, that would damage the overall competitiveness of the economy. If we found we did not need to change the grid to connect up new wind farms in the midlands and that we could use the existing grid, we could use existing resources more efficiently. While we all have aspirations to protect the environment and to find sustainable ways of generating electricity, we need the jobs also. Loading the consumer and industrial sector with the cost of schemes that

413 Seanad Éireann are somewhat fanciful in their economics is not the way to proceed.

We really do need to see the numbers with regard to what the various methods of generation would cost and what that would mean for consumers and industry, particularly the new high- tech industries, which are heavy users of electricity. It is a cliché to say that we do not need to go tilting at windmills or waves if they turn out to be horrendously uneconomical, but we would welcome the numbers from the Department.

12/03/2014W00500Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Re- sources (Deputy Fergus O’Dowd): Gabhaim buíochas leis na Seanadóirí as ucht na díospói- reachta seo a chur faoi bhráid an tSeanaid. Glacaim go bhfuil tuairimí á nochtadh ar gach taobh ar an ábhar seo.

Ar dtús, caithfidh mé ceist a chur ar Shinn Féin faoi cad atá siad i bhfabhar. An bhfuil siad i bhfabhar aon rud?

12/03/2014W00600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tá sibh i bhfabhar cuid mhaith de na rudaí atá muid féin i bhfabhar. Tá an tAire Stáit tar éis sin a rá.

12/03/2014W00700Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Níor chuir mise isteach ar an Seanadóir ar chor ar bith.

12/03/2014W00800Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ach chuir do chomhghleacaithe isteach orm.

12/03/2014W00900Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Tuigim sin, ach tá súil agam go mbeidh an Seanadóir sásta éisteacht liom.

Tá Sinn Féin i gcoinne gach rud, i gcoinne fracking, oil and gas, leictreachas a sholáthar do dhaoine, poist a chruthú.

12/03/2014W01000Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Táimid i bhfabhar na n-acmhainní a choinneáil.

12/03/2014W01100Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Má chuireann muid an méid sin go léir ar an mbille atá Sinn Féin ag tabhairt do mhuintir na hÉireann, níl sin sásúil. Caithfidh Sinn Féin féachaint arís ar na tuairimí atá á nochtadh aige.

Maidir le cúrsaí pleanála, níl eolas cruinn agam maidir leis an scéal a d’inis an Seanadóir faoin mbean i gConamara. Is cuma cén áit sa tír atá duine, tá sé sofheicthe go bhfuil cúrsaí pleanála trédhearcach. Tá córas ann agus mura bhfuil duine sásta leis an gcóras, is féidir dul chuig An Bord Pleanála chun ceist a chur faoin ábhar. Ina dhiaidh sin, is féidir dul chuig na cúirteanna. Mar sin, ní féidir a rá go bhfuil córas “nod and a wink” ann.

This is a very useful debate. However, the Sinn Féin motion is based on a misapprehension regarding the nature of our transition to renewable energy and towards developing the green infrastructure we require as a State. It is important to recognise that our transition to renewable energy affords us the opportunity to use our abundant indigenous resources to meet our own energy needs, while also ensuring compliance with our legally binding EU targets. It creates a hedge against the volatility of fossil fuel prices and improves our security of supply. In view of the situation in Ukraine and the possibility of it getting out of hand, as it almost did recently, and of a threat to gas supplies to Europe and in the face of such geopolitics, the more we can develop our indigenous industry, the better for us. Clearly, our industry must meet all the legal and other requirements.

414 12 March 2014 EirGrid’s plan between now and 2025 is a major initiative which will put in place a safe, secure and affordable electricity system, the purpose of which is to ensure that the country will have a grid fit for purpose, one that will meet the current and future needs of the economy. Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh spoke about providing for this country and I understand he is opposed to the North-South interconnector. I believe he is wrong if he is, because the North is very much part of the country. We are on the same island.

12/03/2014X00200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I would love to see it united.

12/03/2014X00300Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: We need to ensure that if we can help each other in terms of energy that we do so. In particular, we need to develop regions that do not have the grid they need. This is a major task for all, whether North or South.

We need the grid to ensure reliability of supply to businesses and households. We need it to take the power from where it is generated to where it is needed. We need to reduce our dependency on imported fossil fuels by putting the infrastructure in place to enable reduce our carbon footprint and enable us to reach our mandatory 40% renewable electricity targets by 2020. These aims are all based on our determination that Ireland will develop a power system that meets our future energy needs in a sustainable manner. For this reason we do not accept Sinn Féin’s proposal and the Government side has put an amendment to the House.

Ireland has a target for 16% of our energy to come from renewable sources by 2020, with 40% of our electricity to come from renewable sources. To meet this target, Ireland must move from 170 MW per year to 250 MW. The Minister, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, recognised that this makes it necessary to amended the REFIT schemes to extend both the backstop date for REFIT I and the closing date for applications to REFIT II. This year, work will begin on designing a new support scheme to come into operation in 2016. These changes will facilitate the cost effective provision of renewable energy and are fully consistent with starting on a trajectory of revising and reducing price supports for new onshore wind projects over time, while recognis- ing the need for a predictable and transparent policy framework.

We have made significant progress to date, as underlined by the recent SEAI publication, which noted that the contribution of renewable energy to overall energy demand rose from 2.3% in 1990 to 7.1% in 2012, with renewable electricity contributing 4.1% to the overall energy demand in 2012. Figures for 2013 show that 19% of electricity demand is met from renewable sources. In addition, the level of uptake of connection offers under the Gate 3 process has been very promising. We require an additional 1,500 MW to 2,000 MW of renewable generation to meet the 40% target. Approximately 3,000 MW of offers have been accepted. The rate of delivery under Gate 3 will be a factor of critical importance and will require close monitoring.

Ireland has an abundant source of renewable energy. The pipeline of projects established through our group processing approach means we have confidence in our ability to meet our target of 40% of electricity from renewable sources by 2020. We have an opportunity to enter into an across-state co-operation. The memorandum signed by the Minister is the first such memorandum in this regard. Transboundary co-operation makes sense and does not, as im- plied, represent a barrier to delivery of our own domestic targets. Such an agreement is above and beyond domestic targets.

With regard to the export of renewable energy, we have made good progress on this innova- tive and ambitious work since the signing of the memorandum of understanding by the Minister

415 Seanad Éireann and his counterpart in the United Kingdom in 2013. The body of work progressed under the memorandum has significantly progressed our understanding of the potential mutual economic benefits to Ireland and the United Kingdom of renewable energy trading and the policy, regulatory and economic framework that is required to support it. The Minister has said many times that any intergovernmental agreement must be clear, realisable and bring significant benefits to us. Any reward must outweigh all potential risks. The foreseen benefits would need to include investment, jobs and growth. The local economy would need to benefit through the flow of rates to local authorities and community gain for local communities is important. Ireland must benefit from appropriate returns to the Exchequer and infrastructure to underpin economic development.

Both states remain committed to making these projects happen. However, key policy and regulatory design decisions still remain to be taken by the United Kingdom, which means we are still a considerable distance from settling on the specifics of what the Irish Government and the renewable generators believe must be the basic components of any intergovernmental agreement. For this reason, within the particular timeframe, it will not be possible to deliver the project as envisaged. Therefore, the shared work with the United Kingdom will focus on the longer term post-2020 period, and both countries will continue to work together towards that. As the Taoiseach said yesterday, we will engage with the United Kingdom over the next three months to attempt to develop a workable architecture for trade, which realistically now must be post 2020. I repeat what the Minister said. He has stated that whether the midlands export project goes ahead, the country will still need a grid that is fit for purpose. The plans to develop the grid do not have, and never did have, anything to do with the midlands export project. That project remains a novel project which, if realised, will bring jobs and wealth to Ireland.

Looking at the 2030 targets, the overarching objective is to ensure secure and sustainable supplies into the future. Ireland is very reliant on imported fossil fuels to meet our energy needs. While it is acknowledged that fossil fuels will remain part of the energy mix for some time, progress is being made towards increasing the share of renewable energy. We are aim- ing for a new EU energy and climate change framework for 2030 and towards achieving a low carbon economy by 2050. Following the recent publication by the European Commission of its proposal for a 2030 climate and energy framework, the Department is undertaking analysis to establish the scale of the contribution Ireland can make to meeting these targets, while ensuring that action taken will be cost effective and will not impose an undue burden on our recovering economy.

As I do not have time to read my prepared speech in full, I will make it available to the House and Senators may read it later.

I wish to make some key points before I finish. Reference was made to oil and gas by Senators and we are trying to develop our offshore energy also. I was in Bellanaboy recently, a remote area of County Mayo. What impressed me was that in one of the remotest part of the country, there are over 1,000 people working. The Senator may laugh, but we can look at the number of cars there and see the local economy benefit and how important it is to it. If we can achieve significant oil and gas finds off our Atlantic coast - there is significant interest in our potential there - this will be important for the country and will bring thousands of jobs. Any such development will need to meet all our environmental, health and safety requirements.

People cannot put their heads in the sand and go against everything. To go back to the Sena- tor, I put it to him again that we know what he is against. 416 12 March 2014

12/03/2014X00400Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: The Minister of State is being disingenuous. We are not against everything.

12/03/2014X00500Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: What is the Senator for?

12/03/2014X00600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: We are for the retention of the oil and gas for the people of Ireland, something the Minister of State is definitely not for.

12/03/2014X00700An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Cáit Keane.

12/03/2014X00800Senator Cáit Keane: The Minister of State is very welcome.

12/03/2014X00900An Cathaoirleach: Apologies, I should have called Senator Paschal Mooney. I did not see him indicate.

12/03/2014X01000Senator Paschal Mooney: It is just in the normal flow of events that the next speaker should be from this side.

12/03/2014X01100An Cathaoirleach: Yes, my apologies.

12/03/2014X01200Senator Paschal Mooney: Go raibh maith agat. It happens. In fact, unfortunately I have been partially responsible for poor Senator Cáit Keane being on the receiving end of interesting decisions from the Chair when I was in it also. My apologies to her.

12/03/2014Y00100Senator Paschal Mooney: As my colleague, Senator Thomas Byrne, has outlined, we are supporting this Private Member’s motion. There are a number of issues surrounding it that are of interest to me and perhaps we might tease out some of them. I welcome the Minister of State and compliment him on doing more than just standing up and reading a script of some ten or 11 pages of turgid detail that would have put us all to sleep, with all due respect to whoever drafted it. I accept that the facts must be recorded, but at least the Minister of State has contributed to a more lively and animated exchange, rather than just reading a long script.

I am particularly interested in the memorandum of understanding between the UK Govern- ment and Ireland, in the light of the recent decisions taken about the wind farm projects in the midlands, about which many people in the area are particularly pleased. These decisions do not change my party’s view which is shared by the Government, that it is vital that renewable energy projects be developed in a manner which is sensitive to the environment and which will benefit local communities. I could not help but reflect on what was happening at the Corrib gas field. Yet another legal challenge has been mounted against an Environmental Protection Agency study. Despite the fact that I have read it twice, I still do not fully understand the basis for that challenge. It has something to do with the manner in which the project is progressing. Any international investor watching what goes on in this country in the context of mineral, gas and oil developments will note that the amount of time it takes from discovery of a reserve to getting it to the marketplace is unacceptably long. I say this while fully accepting that energy projects should be developed in a manner which is sensitive to the communities affected.

When Members of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications met public representatives from Norway about 18 months ago, we asked them about local sensitivities in the context of onshore facilities. While they had numerous such facilities, they had nothing like the problems we have encountered with the Corrib gas field because they had engaged, from the outset, with local communities. That is where mistakes were made here. The Government at the time saw this as an opportunity and decided, within the existing parameters of legislation 417 Seanad Éireann at the time, to just go ahead. It decided that it was good for Ireland, but it created a monster that is still with us. That is very unfortunate, from the perspective of the country as a whole. I am not for one moment criticising the people who are living in the area and have legitimate complaints. I do not know what it is like because I am not living there, but I am not going to cast aspersions on the challenges that have been mounted during the years by members of the local community. However, it seems, on balance, that the majority of the community in County Mayo are in favour of the project. The amount of money that has been pumped into the local economy is significant. Belmullet and the surrounding area have been revived by the investment. I hope the Government will look at the experience with the Corrib gas field and ensure all of the checks and balances put in place since the initiation of the project will mean that we will not have a repeat of that experience. I am somewhat concerned that outside investors will look at Ireland and ask, “Why bother?” They will wonder if it is worth the hassle, particularly given that several hundred wells have been sunk in the past 30 years and that there have only been two or three successes. Those who suggest we should follow the Norwegian regime are living in cloud cuckoo land because we are in a totally different position. If one drills a well anywhere in the North Sea, one will find oil, but that is not the case around our coast.

12/03/2014Y00200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: That is not what the Fianna Fáil representatives said at the joint committee. Consistency would be good.

12/03/2014Y00300Senator Paschal Mooney: I am not speaking for my colleagues. I am only making my own observations based on my experience and what I have heard at various committee meetings. The simple fact of the matter is that we have had a lot of international investment in offshore projects in the past 30 years and what have we got for it? The Kinsale field - that is what we have got. No gas has come from the Corrib gas field in the past 15 years. That is all I am saying. If we are serious about developing our energy resources, there is a need for the Gov- ernment and local communities to work together in the national interest. Is the Senator against this? Perhaps, he is; I am never quite sure what Sinn Féin is in favour of because it has-----

12/03/2014Y00400Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: When Fianna Fáil gave away our oil and gas, it certainly was not thinking of what would be good for the people.

12/03/2014Y00500Senator Paschal Mooney: There is a particular element of Sinn Féin’s motion on which I want to reflect and question. The motion calls for the creation and implementation of an all-Ire- land energy policy that would clearly state how our renewable energy targets would be reached. The British Government has embarked on the development of a support mechanism for hydrau- lic fracturing in the United Kingdom which, sadly, includes Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Executive is a regional assembly, not a government. It is in no way comparable with the sovereign Government of the Republic of Ireland. It is under the thumb of Westminster which, through the Chancellor of the Exchequer, has already embarked on the introduction of a series of tax measures to incentivise and encourage companies to come to the United Kingdom and engage in fracking. County Fermanagh is seen as a potential site for the production of shale gas. I would love to know what the Sinn Féin Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Administration are doing to ensure the waters of County Leitrim will not be polluted as a result of decisions taken, not in Belfast, but at Westminster. Perhaps Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh will reflect on this.

12/03/2014Y00600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: We are totally opposed to it.

12/03/2014Y00700Senator David Cullinane: At least we stand for election in Northern Ireland, unlike Fianna 418 12 March 2014 Fáil, and are elected.

12/03/2014Y01000Senator Paschal Mooney: Sinn Féin is on a loser because the British Government has already decided on this issue. Sinn Féin representatives are talking out of both sides of their mouths. When they are in County Leitrim, they are against fracking, but when they are in County Fermanagh, they are more mute about it.

12/03/2014Y01300Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: The Senator has obviously not read Phil Flanagan’s statements on the issue.

12/03/2014Y01400Senator Paschal Mooney: They know the facts. That is my main concern about the motion.

12/03/2014Y01500Senator David Cullinane: I ask the Senator to point to one statement from Sinn Féin which indicates that we are in favour of fracking.

12/03/2014Y01600An Cathaoirleach: Senator Paschal Mooney to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014Y01700Senator Paschal Mooney: It is the only thing that annoys me about Sinn Féin’s position on this issue. Why does it not state it is going to fight to ensure there will be no fracking in County Fermanagh?

12/03/2014Y01800Senator David Cullinane: We have done so. We are against fracking.

12/03/2014Y01900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: We have said that.

12/03/2014Y02000Senator Paschal Mooney: Let us see the results.

12/03/2014Y02100Senator David Cullinane: The Senator is talking through his hat. He does not have a clue what he is talking about.

12/03/2014Y02300Senator Paschal Mooney: I know exactly what I am talking about.

12/03/2014Y02400Senator David Cullinane: The Senator does not know what he is talking about; he is putting words in peoples’ mouths. He does not even know what they said.

12/03/2014Y02500An Cathaoirleach: Please allow Senator Paschal Mooney to speak, without interruption. Senator David Cullinane has spoken on this issue.

12/03/2014Y02600Senator Paschal Mooney: What I do know is-----

12/03/2014Y02700Senator David Cullinane: I ask the Senator to name one individual in my party who is in favour of fracking.

12/03/2014Y02800An Cathaoirleach: Please, Senator.

12/03/2014Y02900Senator David Cullinane: Name one.

12/03/2014Y03000An Cathaoirleach: Will the Senator, please, respect the Chair and allow Senator Paschal Mooney to speak without further interruption?

12/03/2014Y03100Senator Paschal Mooney: I will make my point again for the sake of the slow learners. The British Government has embarked on the introduction of a series of tax breaks to encourage investors to engage in fracking in the United Kingdom. 419 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014Y03200Senator David Cullinane: We are against it.

12/03/2014Y03300Senator Paschal Mooney: I am not saying Sinn Féin is not against it; what I am saying is that it will not be able to do an awful lot about it. That is the point I am making.

12/03/2014Y03400Senator David Cullinane: Why is the Senator telling us something we already know?

12/03/2014Y03500Senator Paschal Mooney: Sinn Féin is not going to be able to do anything about it.

12/03/2014Y03600Senator David Cullinane: What has that got to do with anything?

12/03/2014Y03700Senator Paschal Mooney: The motion talks about a North-South get together on this issue. I wish that was possible, but let us sort out the fracking issue first and then we can talk about whether we can have joined-up thinking on an all-island energy policy. Fracking is the elephant in the room, as Sinn Féin knows. Those who live in my part of the country know that it will create enormous difficulties down the line. All I am saying is that we must find out what is going on in the North of Ireland. What is the relationship between the Westminster Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly in the context of this issue?

I commend to the House and the Minister of State a report published by Committee C of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly on renewable wave and tidal energy. I am not sure if it was laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, but I do know that it was submitted to the British and Irish Governments. It makes a number of recommendations, one of which is that an in- tensified effort be made in the United Kingdom and Ireland to understand, address and remove barriers and constraints on commercial or trade participation in the marine energy sector. I ap- plaud the Government for its recent initiatives in that regard. There was a two page report in the Irish Independent earlier this week gaving an outline of the potential for the development of wave energy projects off the west coast. I hope this will continue to be a major priority for the Department. We are at a very early stage and playing catch-up with the Scots who are the lead- ers in this field. However, we have the potential to outpace them. I commend the Government’s initiatives in this regard and hope it will continue to support the development of technologies that will lead to the harnessing of wave energy.

12/03/2014Z00100Senator Cáit Keane: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O’Dowd, for the debate on this important subject. Everyone is affected by the need for renewable energy. All of the new commissioned studies in this area are good. In line with EU law and our international commitments to reduce carbon emissions, we must ensure we have a sustainable and renewable energy supply. Decarbonising our energy system is our priority and is required by the European Union. As well as energy efficiency, securing a sustainable energy supply is a cornerstone of the Government’s energy policy.

It is estimated that between 25% and 30% of capital investment in renewable energy is retained in the local economy. The Minister of State spoke earlier about 1,000 jobs created by renewable energy in Mayo. We have a beautiful and green country, which the Government acknowledged in its amendment by stating “the Irish landscape is unique in its natural beauty and a significant natural resource in aesthetic, environmental and economic terms, and [...] the construction of any major infrastructural project must take these factors into account.” The Minister of State acknowledged that as a central pillar of good governance, communities have a democratic right to influence decisions concerning the siting of energy infrastructure projects.

It is also important to state the benefits of renewable energy. In 2007, the EU agreed a new 420 12 March 2014 climate and energy target of obtaining 60% of its energy from renewable sources by 2020. The Government has committed €26 million to research the best options in achieving this target. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte and the Minster of State have stated that if there is nothing in terms of jobs or revenue for Ireland from the memorandum of understanding on co-operation in the energy sector recently signed between Ireland and the United Kingdom, there will be no agreement.

Reports have shown that there is real opportunity to develop wind generation offshore as well as onshore. Given our proximity, the Irish Sea is ideal for the development of offshore wind farms, even with existing technologies. Such projects have considerable cost advantages over existing and planned projects in the North Sea, which are also further offshore and in significantly deeper waters. As conventional energy sources run out, Ireland has an extraordinary opportunity to use its natural resources in a cost-competitive way to achieve energy independence and become a world leader in the use of clean, green energy.

Wind-generated energy exportation could account for 20% of gross domestic product income in the next 40 years. This was pointed out by the environmentalist John Travers in his book Green and Gold: Ireland a Clean Energy World Leader?. We must be ambitious in this regard. Price competitiveness is key to this debate. Ireland imports 95% of its gas and all of its oil. Currency fluctuations, together with transportation costs, were factors in driving sizeable price increases in gas and electricity for several years. The Government has taken measures to ensure the customer is protected from higher prices through commercial and residential market regulation, targeted assistance for large energy users and continued support for cost-effective and timely investment in networks.

Foreign direct investment depends on Ireland’s maintaining a 100% reliable electricity supply. Like Senator Tony Mulcahy, I thank the ESB crews who restored disrupted power supplies very quickly during the recent storms. The timely and cost-effective delivery of energy infrastructure is important to the country. An analysis is being undertaken of the cost of placing new pylons over-ground versus the cost of undergrounding. A previous energy regulator stated that there would be an extra cost of €2 billion if the new transmission network was under- grounded. The Government will undertake a new analysis of undergrounding, however. The welcome consultation process on the siting of pylons for the developed transmission network has concluded and will now be considered by the Minister. I know of a case in which An Bord Pleanála insisted on the removal of a wind turbine because it interfered with the character of the landscape, as well as having an impact on the archaeology of the area. Any general exemptions to planning are still subject to certain restrictions, which are outlined in SI No. 600/2001. The planning guidelines we have in place are designed to ensure a consistent approach.

The wind we experience is four times more powerful than in any other country in Europe. We must be proactive in using these resources. The initial consultation on pylons between Eir- Grid and local communities might not have been as good or informative as it should have been. I hope that will be addressed in the upcoming consultation process.

12/03/2014Z00200Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I commend Sinn Féin for its introduction of this Private Members’ motion which Fianna Fáil is delighted to be able to support.

12/03/2014Z00300Senator David Cullinane: Yet one of the Fianna Fáil Senators will vote against the motion. There must be a split in Fianna Fáil.

421 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014Z00400Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I am glad that the Senator raised an important point, because partitionism is alive and well in Sinn Féin, unfortunately. In County Leitrim one of the Senator’s Sinn Féin colleagues is not opposed to fracking north of the Border but, because it is politically opportunistic, he is opposed to fracking south of the Border.

12/03/2014Z00500Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Name one Sinn Féin representative who is in favour of fracking.

12/03/2014Z00600Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: My colleague, Senator Paschal Mooney, raised the concerns of the local communities in County Leitrim which, with the Sinn Féin Deputy in the area, are against fracking. What is the unified policy of Sinn Féin on this particular topic and on wind energy? Sinn Féin has let down rural communities. Members of its own party have left Sinn Féin because of its inaction in opposing wind farm projects north of the Border in County Ty- rone. I was fortunate to meet some of the local communities there.

12/03/2014Z00700Senator David Cullinane: That is strange because the Sinn Féin vote has gone up in County Tyrone at every election. It is very odd.

12/03/2014Z00800Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: If the Senator wants to have a go at my colleague, Senator Paschal Mooney-----

12/03/2014Z00900An Cathaoirleach: Can we come back to the motion?

12/03/2014Z01000Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: -----I suggest he brief himself on the facts of his own party’s position.

12/03/2014Z01100Senator David Cullinane: He cannot name even one Sinn Féin representative in favour of fracking.

12/03/2014Z01200An Cathaoirleach: We will have no crossfire in the House. Will Senator Brian Ó Domh- naill stick to the motion?

12/03/2014Z01400Senator David Cullinane: Give us one name.

12/03/2014Z01500An Cathaoirleach: Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014Z01600Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: A former campaign director for the Sinn Féin Party.

12/03/2014Z01700An Cathaoirleach: Through the Chair, please.

12/03/2014Z01800Senator David Cullinane: A former campaign manager. The Senator cannot even name him.

4 o’clock

12/03/2014AA00100Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Perhaps the Senator will familiarise himself with the facts.

12/03/2014AA00200Senator David Cullinane: The Senator cannot even name one.

12/03/2014AA00300Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: While Fianna Fáil supports it within the general scheme of this motion, we wish to distance ourselves from the Sinn Féin position in the North in respect of fracking, because it has split communities-----

12/03/2014AA00400Senator David Cullinane: What is Sinn Féin’s position in the North? 422 12 March 2014

12/03/2014AA00500An Cathaoirleach: Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014AA00600Senator David Cullinane: The Senator might enlighten me as to the change in policy.

12/03/2014AA00700An Cathaoirleach: The Senator will have five minutes in which to respond later. Can we hear Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill without interruption?

12/03/2014AA00800Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I had not intended to raise this issue at all, but Sinn Féin colleagues began to have a go at me when I rose to speak. If the Senator is trying to justify his remarks, then so be it, but our position is crystal clear. Fianna Fáil is opposed to the development of wind turbines in the manner in which-----

12/03/2014AA00900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Which way is the wind blowing today?

12/03/2014AA01000Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: My party leader, Deputy Micheál Martin, visited Denmark recently, where he examined the issue of pylons and the damaging effects on local communities of wind turbines in particular. Within the constituency in County Donegal in which I live, I was involved in a campaign in the Glen of Glenties, where a major investment of wind turbines was being developed. Planning permission had been granted by Donegal County Council, the local communities were up in arms and thankfully, An Bord Pleanála overturned the decision of the local authority regarding that particular development.

I recognise, as a scientist, that there is scientific evidence on both sides of the argument. That said, I refer to the overwhelming evidence that has been accepted by An Bord Pleanála both in this case and in respect of a project to put pylons into west County Donegal in the period between 2001 and 2003. The board listened to concerns put forward at the time by eminent scholars and professors, whereby there were close linkages between electricity pylons and childhood leukaemia. Regardless of whether they stand up scientifically and regardless of whether the developers of such projects, be it EirGrid or anyone else, can provide evidence to suggest this may not be the case, they cannot provide concrete evidence that it is not the case. When questions arise in respect of citizens’ health, be they children or any other citizens, an independent approach then must be adopted. While I acknowledge that an independent panel has been established, it does not go far enough. The views of local communities have been and are being abandoned in this entire process and the consultation process often is left to the discretion of the developers, which is wrong. Some level of independence must be brought to bear in respect of the development of both pylons and wind farms and there must be some level of independent analysis of the facts.

As for the issue regarding the project with our British counterparts, why should local communities in this country pay the price just because the British authorities wish to meet their Kyoto Protocol targets? That is wrong, and the Minister who was involved in that particular contract should provide clarity and must outline to the people the facts in this regard. While Ire- land certainly has obligations under the Kyoto Protocol, focusing attention exclusively on the development of wind turbines is not the approach to take. If he can, the Minister of State might also outline to the House all the funding that has been made available to private investors for wind energy projects nationwide. He might explain the reason each citizen in the country pays approximately €10 per electricity bill towards the development of wind-related projects, which often goes to multi-million euro projects undertaken by wealthy developers. Where is that money going and is it being paid to the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland? Members will have noted the amount of money that authority pays to consultants. Where is that money go-

423 Seanad Éireann ing? Why are all citizens, irrespective of whether they believe in wind as an alternative source, obliged to pay this to their electricity supplier under the public service obligation? Some clarity must be provided in respect of that issue.

12/03/2014AA01100Senator John Gilroy: I welcome the Minister of State. He will have noticed the noise being generated between my friends in Fianna Fáil and my friends in Fine Gael, who appear to be competing to be champions of negativity in this regard, because the policy differences between them are so slim that the only difference is noise and volume.

12/03/2014AA01200Senator Rónán Mullen: The Sinn Féin-Fine Gael alliance has not come about quite yet.

12/03/2014AA01300Senator John Gilroy: If I did not know any better, one would think there must be an election approaching.

12/03/2014AA01400An Cathaoirleach: The Senator needs to get back to the motion.

12/03/2014AA01500Senator John Gilroy: I have returned to it immediately. Speaking of noise, the entire debate on this issue has been characterised by a great deal of noise and very little light on both sides of the argument. In my own simple way, I wish to clarify the issue for myself and perhaps in so doing might also be of some help to other Members. One can ask three questions with regard to the entire project. The first is whether one agrees in the first instance that it is necessary to upgrade the grid. While I believe most people would, I have heard some public commentary from people who are adamantly opposed to upgrading the grid and who have stated publicly there is no need to so do. One of those people happens to be a candidate for Fianna Fáil in the European elections. Therefore, the disparity of views in this regard is evident even within parties, and sometimes the upgrading of the grid might not be necessarily the main point of conten- tion for some parties. It may be that political and electoral advantage are more important for its members. However, if one agrees that the grid needs to be upgraded, then it should be done, and those who assert that no upgrade of the grid is required must give a response to a question. I refer to a scenario in which a major high energy user of electricity decides to set up here in Ireland and wishes to provide 1,000 jobs in a region like the south east but then decides that because the one thing missing is a safe, secure and sustainable supply of electricity, it is unable to so do. What would the objectors tell the potential employees in the south east or somewhere else? What would they do or say? Would they wash their hands of it and state it is none of their business? Of course, it is their business. That is the first question.

Second, if one agrees the grid is to be upgraded, one must ask in the course of so doing whether is it prudent and wise to add capacity to the grid that might cater for or accommodate new sources of energy that might be available. Senator Sean D. Barrett pointed to the idea of fracking in the United States, which has driven down oil prices internationally. I understand my colleague, Senator John Whelan, supported fracking in the media last week, which would be alarming to his colleague, Senator John Kelly, in the Roscommon-Leitrim area. It is a debate that could be held. I personally am not in favour of it and I do not believe the Labour Party is in favour of it.

12/03/2014AA01600Senator David Cullinane: The Labour Party three.

12/03/2014AA01700Senator John Gilroy: However, if some people are in favour, the debate should be held honestly. That is the second point.

Third, if the grid is being upgraded and if capacity is being added to accommodate new and 424 12 March 2014 renewable energy sources, the question is whether it would be a good idea to ascertain whether it is possible to export some of this energy and whether that would make economic sense. In this context, one can consider the east-west interconnector, which is a cable 260 km in length that connects north Wales to north Dublin. It was noted in the Bord Gáis Éireann price in- dex of last May that electricity is traded both ways and that the interconnector between north Wales and Dublin has contributed to the reduction in wholesale electricity prices. Who could be against that? Does one wish to keep energy prices high or is it a good idea to trade abroad any energy surplus one might have and to import energy when one is short of it? This makes absolute sense. I have attended public meetings at which it has been stated, as a serious point, that we would be exporting our wind. Why, for God’s sake, would one not do that if one could?

12/03/2014AA01800Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: If it is surplus.

12/03/2014AA01900Senator John Gilroy: Yes, of course.

These are the points to make and if one breaks down the arguments into the aforementioned three questions, the question is, what should we do? Should we have overground or underground cables? The Minister has appointed the former judge Catherine McGuinness to adjudicate on the terms of reference, which are the most important part of any argument. One could have narrow terms of reference, as perhaps did EirGrid in the past, or one could have objectively set terms of reference for the project and Ms McGuinness will do this. EirGrid will make proposals to her that she will examine, after which she will state objectively whether these terms of reference are sufficiently wide. I note that in the opening remarks to his contribution my colleague and friend, Senator Thomas Byrne, stated one could not trust the Government, the Minister, EirGrid or An Bord Pleanála, and one now could not trust the former judge Catherine McGuinness, but one could trust Fianna Fáil. That is the argument the Senator and Fianna Fáil wish people could sustain. I cannot sustain that argument because people did trust Fianna Fáil in the course of three elections and now look at where we are. The Senator may reflect on this and perhaps Fianna Fáil might acknowledge there are some other agendas at stake that might not be in the national interest. When Fianna Fáil is in government its members are good Senators and Deputies. When it is in opposition they are good councillors. I do not want to start scoring points, but we need honesty in this debate. Let us consider the issue objectively to decide the best way to proceed, while keeping the national interest foremost in our minds.

12/03/2014BB00200Senator Rónán Mullen: All of us can agree that the national interest should be foremost in our minds, but while Senator John Gilroy made his points in an interesting and reasonable way, they highlight once again the problem of the Whip in politics. Politicians do not seem to be allowed to state their convictions. Perhaps it is good to debate these issues in a way that allows people to take different views within their own parties. The problem, however, is that they cannot vote according to their convictions. We saw an example of this a couple of months ago when a motion I introduced on putting high-voltage lines underground where physically possible was defeated by one vote because three Labour Party Senators who agreed with the motion were able only to abstain from voting.

I recently had a conversation with a farmer from my part of the country who was extremely concerned about plans to erect massive wind turbines around his farm. He expressed fear that his land would be greatly devalued if other farmers around him erected these turbines on their land. He told me that someone had visited his house, without written documentation, to gather information and suss the place out. Subsequently he received an ominous message advising that he had two weeks to sign up or he would be out. He painted an alarming picture whereby 425 Seanad Éireann farmers and landowners are being played off against each other. Information and clarity as to the precise sources of information are sometimes in short supply and it is all about getting the decision over the line without proper consultation with people. This is a source of considerable anger and disquiet to many people throughout the country.

While Senator John Gilroy was right to say we all support the export of surplus wind energy, many people fear that Ireland will become a source of cheap energy for Britain in circumstances in which the British would not tolerate similar despoliation of their own landscape.

12/03/2014BB00300Senator Cáit Keane: Stick to the facts.

12/03/2014BB00400Senator Rónán Mullen: It is a question of long-term versus short-term perspectives. It is the culture of the quick buck on the one hand, and taking a long-term interest in the quality of our landscape, our tourism industry and our natural amenities on the other. All of us want to improve our balance of payments and our exports, but what is the long-term financial cost?

I support the thrust of the motion. All of us have seen the map of the proposed corridors for the EirGrid massive pylon project. These pylons will cut through communities, towns and parishes across our country. In regard to the proposal to put pylons underground, we need look no further than the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) (Amendment) Bill 2014, which I introduced to the House. That Bill would require high voltage lines to be placed underground wherever it is physically possible to do so. I ask the Government to make time for a debate on the Bill. Although these issues have been discussed extensively on the Order of Busi- ness and elsewhere, the Government has not facilitated an extended debate on how we will meet our renewable energy targets or on high voltage lines and pylons. We are now confronted with the prospect that hundreds of turbines, pylons and power lines will become part of the landscape and consciousness of rural Ireland for generations, shaping the way future generations perceive our landscape. Some of these pylons are only 10 m shorter than Liberty Hall. Imagine a long line of such pylons across the landscape at intervals of 250 m. They will be located inside a corridor 1 km in width, with planning applications for final routes to be decided later.

The all-island grid study of 2008 did not give serious consideration to placing the cables underground. A commission has now been put together in advance of the local elections to consider placing high voltage lines underground as an afterthought. I have the greatest of respect for members and former members of the Judiciary but it may be preferable to stay away from the Judiciary when commissions are established on such an ad hoc basis in future. Members of the Judiciary have an important role in upholding the rule of law but this commission is political in its inspiration and has not been established with the common good in mind. I say this without in any way ascribing fault to Ms Justice McGuinness.

12/03/2014BB00500Senator Cáit Keane: That is what the Senator is doing.

12/03/2014BB00600Senator Rónán Mullen: I ask the Senator to listen to my words not the voices in my head. I am not sure the Government was acting responsibly in putting together that commission.

The Minister for Health has expressed concern about the health impacts of pylons. The new boss of EirGrid would not like to live near these pylons. In February the European Commis- sion’s scientific committee issued a draft report on emerging and newly identified health risks which acknowledged the potential for health effects and raised issues in respect of levels of leukaemia among people living close to major power lines.

426 12 March 2014

12/03/2014BB00700Senator Cáit Keane: The Senator is misquoting the report.

12/03/2014BB00800Senator Rónán Mullen: We can be sure about reductions in the value of land and the long-term damage that will be done to the tourism industry and natural amenities. I have visited countries in which massive pylons have been erected in rural areas. One no longer feels as though one is living in a rural area. These areas are more like post-industrial landscapes.

I am concerned about the doublespeak on the memorandum of understanding with the Unit- ed Kingdom. It appears the British are less interested in some of the planned projects now because they may not assist Britain in meeting its targets. If that is the only reason these projects do not proceed, it will be an indictment of our Government, because it is not putting the national interest first. By the national interest, I mean the right of Irish people to a landscape that can attract tourism in the longer term and sustainable investment in renewable energy. Sustainability requires management of our resources in a way that respects our long-term future.

12/03/2014BB00900Senator Kathryn Reilly: I will not go over old ground, other than to reflect on some of the concerns that have been expressed to me. My colleague, Senator David Cullinane, will respond to the comments made during the course of the debate. All of us will be aware from constituency meetings and social media of the considerable public opposition to the construction of pylons. This was highlighted in the large number of submissions made to EirGrid on the issue. The construction of this infrastructure should be put on hold to allow a plan to be designed that addresses the concerns of residents and exploits our natural resources to their greatest potential.

I commend those communities in Counties Monaghan, Armagh, Cavan, Tyrone and Meath which since 2007 have pursued a campaign against plans by EirGrid and Northern Ireland En- ergy, NIE, to impose high voltage overhead power lines and associated pylons on them. They have now been joined by communities from the west, midlands and the south, because this is an issue that affects communities throughout the island. I pay particular tribute to the Trojan work done by campaigning organisations in frustrating and delaying the efforts of EirGrid and NIE to ignore the concerns of unwilling host communities and impose their structures on our natural landscape. The landscapes that will be blighted by this are tourism resources and of massive benefit to the economy. Erecting these pylons will do untold damage to our reputation in tourism. There will not be much of a repeat of The Gathering if we do so.

Real concerns were heard during the course of the debate about health, the landscape, the environment and the economic development of the areas concerned. To their credit, most of the communities involved have not expressed opposition to the need for interconnectors or an enhanced electricity network. They have, simply and correctly, demanded that the cables be placed underground. Many reports clearly prove that putting power lines underground is possible and feasible. Many argue that in the medium and long term undergrounding is eco- nomically beneficial. To reiterate what Senator David Cullinane said in his opening remarks, EirGrid claims undergrounding would be two and a half or three times the cost of pylons. It had previously stated it would be ten times more expensive and before that, that it would be 40 times more expensive. Before that again, it stated it could not be done.

We have heard a lot about the Danish model. The Danish Government has set in train a process to ensure all high voltage power lines will in the future be placed underground. It is time the Governments, North and South, followed suit. We should aim to make Ireland a world leader in underground technology which is evolving fast. We should aim to enhance our reputation in terms of tourism and our natural environment. Having cables above ground, with mas- 427 Seanad Éireann sive pylons, will do untold damage. It is cutting our nose off to spite our face.

12/03/2014CC00200Senator David Cullinane: I thank the Minister of State for his response and all Senators for their comments on this Private Members’ motion. I will respond to them in the most constructive way I can.

12/03/2014CC00300Senator John Gilroy: That will be unique.

12/03/2014CC00400Senator David Cullinane: I will start with the contributions of Fianna Fáil Members. If we could generate electricity or energy from the hot air and wind that came from some Fianna Fáil Senators, we would be home and hosed in reaching our renewable energy targets. I must point to a number of facts. Sinn Féin’s position on overgrounding versus undergrounding of high voltage power lines is the same in the North and the South. Our position on fracking is the same in the North and the South. We are against it. Senator Paschal Mooney is correct to point out that in the devolved assembly in the North responsibility for many areas, particularly fiscal matters, rests with Westminster. We have used this argument on countless occasions when we have been accused of imposing cuts to child benefit which are made directly at Westminster rather than in the Northern Ireland Assembly.

12/03/2014CC00500Senator Thomas Byrne: Sinn Féin accepts the rule of Her Majesty.

12/03/2014CC00600Senator David Cullinane: We join Senator Paschal Mooney in accepting that we do not have devolved power, but the reality is that-----

12/03/2014CC00700Senator John Gilroy: If it had accepted Her Majesty’s ruling in 1969, it might have made a difference.

12/03/2014CC00800Senator David Cullinane: The only political party on the island of Ireland doing anything about trying to obtain full fiscal powers for the Northern Ireland Assembly and the people of Ireland is Sinn Féin.

12/03/2014CC00900Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Sinn Féin takes the Queen’s shilling, but it will not challenge it.

12/03/2014CC01000Senator David Cullinane: Unlike the Fianna Fáil Party, my party is organised in the North. It is the largest political party on the Nationalist side and one of the largest on the island of Ireland. That is where much of the opposition to Sinn Féin’s motion comes from. Fianna Fáil Senators spoke against it, but they said they would support it, which is more hypocrisy.

12/03/2014CC01100Senator Paschal Mooney: On a point of order-----

12/03/2014CC01200Senator David Cullinane: The Senator has no point of order to raise.

12/03/2014CC01300Senator Paschal Mooney: I am glad that the Senator acknowledged the point I was trying to make, but to then construe that my contribution was in any way against the Fianna Fáil Party’s position to support the motion is mischievous; it is untrue.

12/03/2014CC01400An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.

12/03/2014CC01500Senator David Cullinane: I am glad that Senator Paschal Mooney has shifted his position in the past few minutes.

12/03/2014CC01600Senator Paschal Mooney: I have not. The Senator is only fuelling mischief. 428 12 March 2014

12/03/2014CC01700An Cathaoirleach: Senator David Cullinane to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014CC01800Senator David Cullinane: I am grateful to Senator Paschal Mooney, but I point to the hypocrisy of Fianna Fáil on this issue. When it was in power, it was in favour of EirGrid’s plans, high voltage power lines-----

12/03/2014CC01900Senator Thomas Byrne: I was never in favour of them.

12/03/2014CC02000Senator David Cullinane: Not personally, but the Senator’s party was in favour of them. Fianna Fáil brought forward the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act that allowed EirGrid to go straight to An Bord Pleanála and bypass the proper planning system.

12/03/2014CC02100Senator Paschal Mooney: What does that prove?

12/03/2014CC02200Senator David Cullinane: The track record of Fianna Fáil on this issue speaks for itself.

12/03/2014CC02300Senator Paschal Mooney: Sinn Féin supported many positions and has now changed its mind. I could name a few.

12/03/2014CC02400An Cathaoirleach: Senator David Cullinane to continue, without interruption. There are too many turbines here.

12/03/2014CC02500Senator David Cullinane: Now that it is in opposition, Fianna Fáil can make policy on the basis of which way the wind is blowing. The opinion polls show what people think of Fianna Fáil.

Senator Tony Mulcahy was one of the Senators who said Sinn Féin was against everything and in favour of nothing. The motion shows that we are in favour of maximising the potential of renewable energy sources.

12/03/2014CC02600Senator Paschal Mooney: And in favour of Christmas.

12/03/2014CC02700Senator David Cullinane: We are in favour of doing this in the interests of the people and not in favour of people exploiting our natural resources for profit to sell energy to Britain or anywhere else.

12/03/2014CC02800Senator Thomas Byrne: Bhí an Seanadóir Trevor Ó Clochartaigh ag caint faoin mBrea- tain.

12/03/2014CC02900An Cathaoirleach: Senator David Cullinane to continue, without interruption.

12/03/2014CC03000Senator David Cullinane: What we are in favour of is clearly understood in the motion and my contribution.

12/03/2014CC03100Senator Thomas Byrne: Bhí an Seanadóir Trevor Ó Clochartaigh i bhfad i bhfábhar.

12/03/2014CC03300Senator David Cullinane: Senator Ivana Bacik also spoke about what she saw as confusion in the motion where we dealt with wind turbines, overhead pylons and power lines. There is no confusion. It is a general motion on energy policy, the need for Ireland to be energy independent, as much as possible, in order to reach our renewable energy targets, by using the energy created for the common good of the people of the State and on the island through an all-Ireland energy policy. Energy policy encompasses many aspects, including wind turbines and pylons. 429 Seanad Éireann Senator Tony Mulcahy cited some existing wind turbines as the reason we should place pylons elsewhere. That is not the case and he is being disingenuous in saying so because the technology has changed. Infrastructure was put in place 30 years ago, but that does not mean we should do the same today because of the changes in technology that have taken place. He has entirely missed the point.

12/03/2014CC03400Senator Tony Mulcahy: I did not miss the point; I am quite happy to stand over what I said.

12/03/2014CC03500An Cathaoirleach: As Senator David Cullinane is overtime, I ask him to conclude.

12/03/2014CC03600Senator David Cullinane: There was a lot to which I had to respond and I hope I have clarified Sinn Féin’s position. I thank the Minister of State for attending. We need a constructive debate because people are concerned about many issues. We will push the motion to a vote as we do not agree with the amendment. The motion should have been supported.

12/03/2014CC03700Senator Thomas Byrne: The Senator will need Fianna Fáil to back Sinn Féin in the vote.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 16. Tá Níl Bacik, Ivana. Barrett, Sean D. Brennan, Terry. Byrne, Thomas. Burke, Colm. Cullinane, David. Clune, Deirdre. Leyden, Terry. Coghlan, Paul. MacSharry, Marc. Comiskey, Michael. Mooney, Paschal. Cummins, Maurice. Mullen, Rónán. D’Arcy, Jim. Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor. D’Arcy, Michael. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Gilroy, John. O’Brien, Darragh. Hayden, Aideen. O’Brien, Mary Ann. Henry, Imelda. O’Donovan, Denis. Higgins, Lorraine. O’Sullivan, Ned. Keane, Cáit. Reilly, Kathryn. Moran, Mary. White, Mary M. Mulcahy, Tony. Wilson, Diarmuid. Mullins, Michael. Naughton, Hildegarde. O’Donnell, Marie-Louise. O’Keeffe, Susan. O’Neill, Pat. Sheahan, Tom.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators David Cullinane and 430 12 March 2014 Trevor Ó Clochartaigh.

Amendment declared carried.

Question put: “That the motion, as amended, be agreed to.”

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators David Cullinane and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh.

Question declared carried.

12/03/2014EE00300An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit again?

12/03/2014EE00400Senator Maurice Cummins: At 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26 March. 431 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2014EE00500An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed?

12/03/2014EE00600Senator Thomas Byrne: No. It is disgraceful.

Question, “That the House reconvene at 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26 March 2104,” put and declared carried.

12/03/2014EE00800Adjournment Matters

12/03/2014EE00850Building Regulations Amendments

12/03/2014EE01000Senator Kathryn Reilly: Some architectural technologists have approached me several times to express grave concerns about the building control amendment regulations. They argue that to protect the consumer properly, all those who play an active part in the construction process should be assessed on their own merits and competence and regulated as necessary on that basis.

The amended buillding regulations zone in on the essence of architectural technology, but they do not provide for the role of those who are trained and experienced in this area. As a result, their skills set, while relevant to the construction industry and the building regulations, is outside the terms of the Building Control Act 2007. Although the Act alludes to their role, it is not adequately catered for. To play a role in this new regime, professional architectural technologists, many of whom have decades of experience in this field, have to deny their primary qualification in architectural technology and claim instead to be either architects or building surveyors to seek entry to the statutory registers. The insistence that those who operate within the scope of the Act should declare themselves as architects or building surveyors and submit for registration in these fields is flawed and will lead to many unsuccessful registration applications and more problems for the Department. To present it as a solution to those faced with retraining or an exit from their profession makes matters much worse. The irony is the regulations demand that architectural technologists would brand themselves as architects or building surveyors in order to continue doing what they currently do. The mantra that architects, engineers and building surveyors are those most commonly involved in the completion of construction projects is not entirely accurate, as professional architectural technologists carry out some but not always all the duties of architects and building surveyors on the basis of multiple shared competencies. Such individuals possess varying degrees of academic training but with a different focus from that of either of the regulated professions.

Many architectural technologists would have successfully completed a wide variety of construction projects but most would have done so on the basis of their particular qualification, often as part of a team and usually without the necessity to use any protected title. That is why many would now be reluctant to make a declaration regarding the breadth of their duties in comparison to those of an architect or building surveyor on foot of the scope of services provided. Some would be limited by the scale of the project with which they would be inde- pendently involved and others would have limited exposure to specialised areas. Many simply find the contradiction of claiming to be something they are not to be very difficult and attempts

432 12 March 2014 at registration will suffer on the back of this.

For the current system to be fair, specific provision should be made within the registration process for a particular skill set of experienced, professionally accredited architectural technologists as qualified professionals in their own right. The regulations must include a viable and sustainable role for the country’s architectural technologists, and it is vital that those who can bring clarity to this issue for architectural technology professions do so clearly and without fear or favour of any other party. Architectural technologists should be included in the regulations process, as this is a very big cause of concern. In the past decade or more a vast number of architectural technologists have gone through the third level system and there has been an increase in the level of national framework qualifications. It is important these people are recognised.

12/03/2014FF00200Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Gov- ernment (Deputy Fergus O’Dowd): I thank the Senator for raising the issue, which I am happy to take on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Phil Hogan.

I am aware of the role and contribution made by architectural technologists in the design and construction of dwellings and other buildings. The recent building control amendment regulations empower competence and professionalism in construction activity and, as such, will increase the opportunities available for all competent and qualified persons in the industry, not least the architectural technologist. The new regulations strengthen the arrangements in place for the control of building activity by requiring greater accountability in compliance with building regulations. In particular, statutory certificates of compliance must be signed by a registered professional, such as an architect or a building surveyor registered in line with the Building Control Act 2007 or a chartered engineer registered under earlier legislation. These are the professional groupings typically involved in the design of construction works in Ireland.

Depending on their personal circumstances it may be open to individual members of the Chartered Institute of Architectural Technologists, CIAT, to seek inclusion on the statutory registers and a significant number have succeeded in becoming so registered. There is no question of persons who are not included on the statutory registers being permitted to sign certificates of compliance for building control purposes. It is worth noting that registration of title became necessary in order to protect consumers from persons passing themselves off as architects, surveyors or engineers, and this is still happening. It will be less likely to occur now that statutory certificates must be given by registered professionals.

The Department has engaged openly and constructively with CIAT on this matter and it has outlined a number of options in keeping with the Building Control Act 2007 that may be pursued to develop the arrangements in place for the registration of its chartered architectural technologist members. This engagement has led to CIAT presenting separate cases for recognition of its chartered members under both the surveyor and the architect registers, based on benchmarking the competence of their chartered members against the existing routes to registration. The SCSI and the RIAI, as the registration bodies for the relevant professions and as the competent authorities in Ireland for the purposes of the EU directive on the recognition of professional qualifications, are considering the cases put forward by CIAT.

Neither the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government nor his De- partment has any role in the assessment or the validation of professional qualifications in this manner and they cannot pre-empt the outcome in either case. However, should the SCSI or the 433 Seanad Éireann RIAI determine that the competence of the chartered architectural technologist is equivalent to the requirements for inclusion on either register, it would fall on the Minister to bring forward relevant suitable amendments to the Building Control Act 2007.

12/03/2014FF00250Small and Medium Enterprises Supports

12/03/2014FF00300Senator Lorraine Higgins: I thank the Minister of State for taking this matter which is of importance to the recovery of the country. It is the need for a bank to actively lend to the small and medium enterprise sector. This week we were informed by reports in the Irish Independent that lending to small and medium enterprises has declined for each of the past three quarters when lending to farms and property companies is excluded from the figures proffered. This is on top of news from last year, when the Department of Finance told us 24% of small and medium enterprises, SMEs, refused finance were not given any reason and nearly half of applications are taking longer than the Government-recommended 15 days to turn around. These kinds of statistics make me genuinely fear for a lost decade in Irish society, as we have not adequately addressed the deep-seated problems with competition in the banking sector. We need to tackle it head on.

Small and medium enterprises make up 99% of all businesses in this country yet we have a loan rejection rate second only to Greece in the eurozone at 24%. We have the second-highest level of discouraged borrowers and we also have the worst terms and conditions applying to new credit in the European Union. If people want a commercial loan or mortgage, they must come up with a 33% deposit in order to get the loan and be approved by the bank, and they also need to pay conveyancing fees not only for their own solicitor but that of the bank also. Such issues must be addressed very quickly.

We can compare small and medium enterprise lending against best practice in the western world. In most First World countries, lending is proffered on a cash flow basis and not on bricks and mortar security, as continues to be the case in Ireland. As a result of the property crash we must have a major shift in thinking or else we will miss out on the next Facebook or Steve Jobs kind of entrepreneur. Despite AIB and Bank of Ireland giving the Government an undertaking to lend €3.6 billion to small and medium enterprises for 2013, it seems that to a certain degree we are being duped. What may not be obvious to some is that banks include in their calcula- tions restructuring of debt, renewal of season loans and overdraft facilities, changing overdraft facilities into term loans, as well as all agriculture, retail and service loans. The portion relating to the likes of manufacturing is minute in terms of the existing small and medium enterprise book and new finance.

It is clear we need proper banking competition in this country and if we cannot succeed in making those banks bailed out by the Irish people lend to the small and medium enterprise sector in the way they should, we must set up or encourage a new institution to set up here. We need a properly focused business bank that would target more than half of lending on the SME sector and commercial enterprises so we can ensure cash flow businesses are being adequately financed. To give an example, a licence was given to an enterprise called Metro Bank, with over half of its lending targeted at the SME sector only. The Department of Finance and the Central Bank must bear that in mind when they devise policy in the area.

We are letting go opportunities to finance Irish businesses and entrepreneurs and we are not offering money to people based on the strength of business plans but rather bricks and mortar 434 12 March 2014 security, with which I have difficulty. If we do not correct the trend and take remedial action, we will face an issue of paralysis for small and medium enterprises in the country. Without a working banking system, we will not be able to rebuild Ireland. SMEs cater for 99% of all businesses, and they have a real role in revitalising local towns and villages. We must recognise how critical they are for economic development, and we must do everything we can to address what has been inflicted upon them. For that reason, I ask the Minister for Finance, in conjunc- tion with the Central Bank, to consider granting a new licence to a business-based bank.

5 o’clock

12/03/2014GG00100Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: The Government acknowledges that SMEs are the lifeblood of the economy and play a crucial role in employment growth in the country. Since March 2011 Government policy has concentrated on ensuring that viable micro, small and medium-sized enterprises have access to capital, equity and debt funding from a more diverse range of sources. Experience has shown us that not only do SMEs need credit from banks but some SMEs have an appetite to take equity and other investments from market-based funders. The National Pensions Reserve Fund, NPRF, has committed to using its funds to help the flow of credit to the SME sector through the SME equity fund, the SME credit fund, the SME turnabout fund and the innovation fund, all of which are up and running.

In budget 2014 the Minister for Finance introduced a number of measures for funding growth in the SME sector, including enhancing the Credit Review Office, devising a comprehensive communication strategy on Government supports for SMEs, improving the financial education of SMEs and measures to help SMEs to export. The Government supports seed and venture capital directly through Enterprise Ireland and has established a credit guarantee scheme. Mi- crofinance Ireland can also help smaller SMEs and Senators and Deputies can help us to spread that message in their constituency clinics. The launch of the development capital scheme will help firms with high growth and job creation potential. The actions outlined above show that the Government is fully committed to maximising the potential of the SME sector in any way it possibly can so that the people will benefit from a thriving domestic economy.

The Senator should note that it is unlikely that the Central Bank would refuse a license to an SME-focused bank provided such an application complied with all relevant laws and procedures. As this House will no doubt be aware, the Taoiseach mentioned in the Dáil at the time of the exit from the troika programme that he had held discussions with Chancellor Merkel on ways in which Germany could actively support our efforts to foster economic recovery. The discussions included a specific focus on finding ways to reinforce Ireland’s economic recovery by improving funding mechanisms for the real economy, including access to finance for Irish SMEs. In that context the German Government has asked KfW, the German development bank, to work with the German and Irish authorities in order to deliver on this initiative at the earliest possible date. Officials of the Department of Finance have already exchanged working papers on this subject with KfW and the German Ministry of Finance. There have been meetings on this matter in Berlin, Frankfurt and Dublin as well as numerous teleconferences, including two last week.

The NTMA and the Department of Finance are working on the details of the debt products to be offered to the SME sector with a view to making them attractive in terms of both cash flow and accessibility. As we are trying to ensure that any initiative that comes out of this process is as effective as it can be, we will be discussing approaches that meet the strategic objectives of all stakeholders and ultimately facilitate lending to the real economy, in particular to SMEs in 435 Seanad Éireann Ireland. In addition, the medium-term economic strategy and, in turn, An Action Plan for Hobs, commits the Government to working with multilateral development and national development banks to develop new sources of finance for SMEs. In this context we will also be exploring how the European Investment Bank’s assistance can continue to be leveraged to the maximum benefit of the economy.

Experience in other countries suggests that any lending facilitated by a national development bank like KfW or a strategic investment bank is generally complementary to lending already taking place in an economy and can assist commercial banks with access to cheaper credit lines such as from the European Investment Bank. Additionally, the Government has decided to establish the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF which will absorb the NPRF. Using the ISIF, we will further maximise our resources to enhance growth in the economy and improve key infrastructure to maintain Ireland’s attractiveness as a place to do business and to create employment. As announced, the legislation for ISIF will be introduced in the Oireachtas shortly.

12/03/2014GG00200Senator Lorraine Higgins: I thank the Minister of State for his answer and acknowledge all of the efforts being made by the Government. The creation of 61,000 new jobs last year, so soon after taking office, is indicative of the success of its policies. However, we all know of small businesses in towns and villages all over Ireland that have closed down as a consequence of the recession. I am trying to draw a parallel with what happened in the 1980s. At the time ICC Bank and ACC Bank were operating here and had targeted lending structures for the agri- cultural community and the SME sector. I am opposed to the funds that are potentially coming from Germany through KfW going into our pillar banks which have legacy issues vis-à-vis their customers. We need a third force in banking in the country and the Government needs to create that. That would really assist all of the ancillary work that has been done by the Government, as outlined by the Minister of State. We need fresher thinking in the context of granting loans to business people. We need to move away from bricks and mortar security and ensure the vi- ability of any business is assessed on the basis of its business plan and not on whether it has 30% or 33% of a deposit to invest in a building. We need properly focused business banks and that is the nub of the issue.

12/03/2014GG00300Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I thank the Senator for her comments and assure her that the statistics she presented, which are very useful, as well as her views and comments will be brought to the attention of the Minister for Finance.

The Seanad adjourned at 5.05 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26 March 2014.

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