Vol. 211 Tuesday, No. 10 22 November 2011

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Dé Máirt, 22 Samhain 2011.

Business of Seanad ………………………………563 Order of Business …………………………………563 Recommendation of Committee on Procedure and Privileges: Motion ………………585 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: Statements, Questions and Answers ……………585 Adjournment Matter Telecommunications Services …………………………620 SEANAD ÉIREANN

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Dé Máirt, 22 Samhain 2011. Tuesday, 22 November 2011.

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Chuaigh an i gceannas ar 12.30 p.m.

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Paidir.

Prayer.

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Business of Seanad An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I have notice from Senator that, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, she proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to avail of the opportunity to provide tier 1 international connectivity to the south of the country by ensuring a connection is made to the Hibernia Express cable that is being laid from the UK to the USA.

I regard the matter raised by the Senator as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and it will be taken at the conclusion of business.

Order of Business Senator : The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re arrangements for the address to Seanad Éireann by Dr. Mary Robinson on Thursday, 24 November 2011, to be taken without debate on the conclusion of the Order of Business; and No. 2, statements on infrastructure and capital investment, to be taken at 3.30 p.m. and to conclude no later than 5.30 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes, followed by questions from the floor not to exceed two minutes. There will be a sos on the conclusion of No. 1.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I am confining the Order of Business today to 55 minutes. Some Members may not get in but I was criticised on the previous day by some of my own people for allowing it to go on and, therefore, I will have to stick to the rules. If everybody plays by the rules and keeps to their time, many Members will get an opportunity to speak.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The clock starts now. First, I want to correct the record of the House. Last week I raised the matter of student fees and the fact that Labour Youth and Members were not at the march. I am happy to correct the record of House in that the national chairperson of Labour Youth contacted me to tell me that there were some members of Labour Youth at the march. I commend them for taking that stance in opposition to their own party. It is a difficult thing to do. He was also able to confirm that there was only one member of the Labour Party Parliamentary Party at the march, the newly elected Member, 563 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

[Senator Darragh O’Brien.] Deputy Patrick Nulty. I am happy to correct the record of the House and the Labour Party Members might reflect on the reason they let down their youth movement so badly. Second, and most importantly, regarding the mortgage arrears implementation strategy, we had a very good debate here some weeks ago with the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes. All of us agreed that the Minister of State was very forthcoming. In response to questions from myself and a Senator on the Government side of the House he stated:

[We] will not be obliged to wait until the budget is introduced in order to discover what the Government proposes to do. It is the Government’s intention — as set out by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan — to put in place a full implementation strategy in advance of the budget. This will mean that no one will be obliged to wait until the first week of December to discover what are the Government’s proposals.

He also stated:

It is the responsibility of [...] Members of this House to ensure that we deliver on what we have proposed. That is what holding a Government to account involves.

I intend to hold the Government to account here today because last Tuesday the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, in response to my colleague in the other House, stated:

I am planning to make an announcement before Christmas [not before the budget] but whether that is before or after the budget I cannot say. It is more likely to be in those weeks between the budget and the Christmas recess.

The Government has had the Keane report for almost nine weeks. The Minister of State came into this House and stated on the record, which I welcomed at the time, that we will have a full implementation strategy on mortgage arrears published in advance of the budget but his boss, the Minister, Deputy Noonan, has stated that we will not. I do not believe the Minister, Deputy Noonan, when he states the strategy will be published before Christmas. We saw the figures last week. Almost 10% of mortgages in this country are in distress and the Government is doing nothing about it. The Government side has defeated a family home Bill already in this House, so what is it doing on mortgages? The Minister of State or the Minister for Finance should return to the House and tell us why we are obliged to wait until after the budget to hear the Government’s proposals. Only three weeks ago we were told they would be published in advance of the budget but the Government has reneged on that promise. Hopefully Members on the Government side will take up that issue. Turning to what I may call “Joan’s 12 Steps to Economic Recovery”, which was published by the current Minister for Social Protection in advance of the election in February, the seventh step states that she will protect child benefit. I hope she does and I hope the Government is not flying a kite and causing grave concern to thousands of families by suggesting a €10 cut in child benefit. This will be fought tooth and nail by my party. Nowhere in any agreement does it state that child benefit will be cut. I remind Members opposite——-

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: You are not entitled to display emblems in the House.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: ——that the Labour Party leader, Deputy Gilmore, and the leader of the Labour Party group in the Seanad, Senator Bacik, on 19 February 2011 promised that the Labour Party would not agree to a child benefit cut. 564 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: You cannot display photographs in the House.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: We can paper the walls with all these promises they have made. What is the position on child benefit? Will the Leader confirm that the Government will not cut child benefit to hard-pressed families?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Your time is up.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business, to call on the Minister for Health to attend the House today to tell us what the Government is doing in respect of the 120 State run community nursing homes, including the home in Abbeyleix and St. Brigid’s in Dublin. I want him to confirm that it is not Government policy to close all these community run beds for the elderly. There should be a debate on the very important service given to our elderly by the community nursing homes. I agree with Senator John Whelan of the Labour Party, who said this was a bridge too far for him. I hope the Members opposite support this amendment.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe: I am sure if I went to my local hardware store I would probably find wallpaper with a design called “Fianna Fáil promises”. I would like to wish the Cabinet well in its discussions on the budget. In the midst of all the rumour, innuendoes and suggestions, protocol always is that the budget will be announced when it is announced. I would like to see some sort of decency maintained in that respect.

Senator Thomas Byrne: The Senator should say that to the Ministers.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Allow Senator O’Keeffe speak.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe: On a different matter, I would like to commend a model which is coming to the Button Factory in Dublin on Thursday. It is the “Leitrim Equation 2” model of musical delight, which is about more than music. It is about bringing older and younger people together in a spirit of co-operation to discover the sort of traditions and the cultural richness of Leitrim. I would like to commend that as a model for the way in which communities can come together and find things in common when times are difficult. I would like to ask the Leader if the authorities can find as a matter of urgency a way of responding to the increase in the numbers sleeping rough on the streets of Dublin. This is a problem that is particularly acute in Dublin, although there are people sleeping rough in Cork, Galway and Limerick. The number of those in Dublin has gone from 60 in 2009 to 70 in 2010 to 87 as of 9 November 2011.If there needs to be an emergency intervention when the weather gets colder, the authorities need to ensure that we do not find people literally on the streets. This problem occurs every year at this time, but it is particularly difficult this year because there is a shortage of beds to cover the increased numbers. Direct intervention is needed. I call on the Minister for Foreign Affairs to make a statement on Egypt and Syria. We are all aware that people are losing their lives in both of these countries; that there are serious violations of human rights; that although elections have been promised in Egypt for next Monday, there is no certainty they will occur; and that the situation in Syria is deteriorating daily. It is difficult to calculate how many people have died in Syria — it may be 3,000, it may be 3,500. We do not know because coverage is scant, journalists and so on are not allowed in, and human rights organisations have been prevented from entering. I would appreciate if the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade could make a statement on these matters.

565 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Senator David Norris: Members of the House will perhaps know — certainly if they consult the record — that over many years I have intervened to protect the right to privacy of citizens of this country against inappropriate media intrusion, such as the publication of the names and occupations of accused persons in a country in which people are held to be innocent until found guilty. For example, after a robbery in which a man was tied up and stabbed to death, the newspapers said he had died as a result of a bizarre sexual ritual, which was inappropriate and incorrect, and his family were extraordinarily distressed. I also spoke on the Defamation Bill, with some assistance from Senator Walsh of Fianna Fáil, and we occasioned the withdrawal of the original Bill. It was, therefore, with some interest that I read the report of the initial stages of the inquiry in the UK under Lord Leveson, and I have a specific question to ask the Leader. Mr. David Sherborne QC made certain accusations against the British media: that they have been illegally accessing people’s private voicemails; bribing employees to divulge personal information; blag- ging sensitive details through deception and trickery; blackmailing vulnerable or opportunistic individuals into breaking confidences about well-known people; intruding blatantly into the grief of victims of crime; vilifying ordinary members of the public unwittingly caught up in such events; hounding various well known people and their families and friends purely because this sells newspapers; and bullying those who, in seeking to question these practices, are merely exercising the same freedom of speech behind which much of this behaviour is sought to be shielded or excused by the press. I am asking the Leader if he will try to institute an examination of the behaviour of the Irish media, because they are certainly engaging in these practices, to my absolute knowledge — through knowledge passed on to me and in my own direct personal experience — and I will be making a complaint, which I ask the Leader to take seriously, on the basis that the editor of a newspaper actually told me that certain recent negative treatments of myself were as a result of such activity, which I properly conducted as an elected Member of this House, and that this was “payback time”. I regard that as unacceptable. I will be making a full statement to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and I expect my colleagues to stand by me, particularly in light of the remarks of Lord Leveson when he said he was aware of the fact that potential witnesses, including Members of Parliament, felt threatened by the possibility of further exposure and delving into their private lives should they dare to give evidence. This is a matter that needs to be examined. I ask, first, that my complaint be treated as a matter of extreme seriousness and urgency by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, and, second, for an examination of the way in which the media operate in this country. The British media are now, in my opinion, afraid to do the kind of things in the UK that they are prepared to do in this country because they regard us as a colony, and they regard it as appropriate to behave in this manner here although they would no longer do so in Britain. I am asking for two things. First, I ask that my complaint, when I make it shortly, be treated seriously by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It is a specific complaint and will be supported by statements. Second, I am asking for an examination into the conduct of the Irish media.

Senator : Senator O’Brien would obviously like the budget speech to be given today in this House.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I would like the Government to keep its promises — that is all.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I would like Senator O’Brien — through the Chair——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I ask the Senator to address the Cathaoirleach. 566 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I am addressing the Cathaoirleach, obviously, and my question is for the Leader. The Senator should pay attention to what his Government signed up for in the memorandum of understanding.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I do. No cuts in child benefit.

Senator Paul Coghlan: Arising out of that, he knows what he saddled this Government with. I ask him to await the budget speech. I would like to refer to tax exiles. We learned recently that there are more than 5,800 people domiciled here but non-resident for tax purposes. The previous Administration brought in what was considered to be a worthwhile measure — a levy — but sadly, as we now know, only ten people contributed bringing in a total of €1.48 million. Something is seriously amiss here and must be addressed. Another man from my neck of the woods and that of Senator Ned O’Sullivan has made a fantastic contribution to this country. He has set up his business abroad, he has done well and he has made a significant contribution of more than €95 million to various good works in the mid west. Recently we learned of the scholarships he has established. This gentleman is an example to all others domiciled here but non-resident for tax purposes. This matter should be addressed urgently. I am unsure how it should be tweaked but I am keen for us to take up the matter. I realise we cannot have the Minister here in early course but perhaps the matter will be addressed in the budget, which Senator Darragh O’Brien so eagerly awaits and wishes could be announced today.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I do.

Senator Paul Coghlan: We must be patient. Perhaps the Leader will offer a word on the matter or tell us how we can learn more but I will await the Minister.

Senator : Three times last week, on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, I called for a debate on the budget and, more specifically, on pre-budget proposals from parties, groupings and individuals. On the three occasions, the Leader failed to respond or to give us a date on when exactly this could take place. Senator Coghlan spoke of having to wait until the budget is published. We know from all the leaks we have seen so far that VAT will go up by 2% and that domestic charges, such as water charges——

Senator Paul Coghlan: Does Senator Cullinane believe all leaks?

Senator David Cullinane: The Minister for Finance confirmed that VAT will go up by 2%.

Senator Paul Coghlan: That was only one area.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator, without interruption.

Senator David Cullinane: While we called for a debate about what should be and what could be in the budget, parliamentarians in Germany were discussing the Irish budget so it is some- what rich for Senator Coghlan or anyone from the Government to talk about having to wait until the budget is published when members of foreign parliaments are discussing what could be in the budget.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Hear, hear. 567 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I do not think so. I did not realise they discussed the matter in the German Parliament.

Senator David Cullinane: We have called for a debate in the House. As far as we can see, the Dáil and the Seanad are being treated with contempt because we are not being given an opportunity to discuss all pre-budget proposals from all groupings properly.

Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator enjoys great freedom here every day.

Senator David Cullinane: I fail to see what is wrong with the Minister for Finance coming to the House to discuss alternatives not only from political parties or groupings, but to give all of us an opportunity to present to the Minister all the options and alternatives proposed by advo- cate groups throughout the country. How many meetings have taken place in this building at which groups have come in to discuss their alternative proposals? Yet, we have not had one chance to discuss any of these with the Minister for Finance. It is not good enough that dis- cussions can take place in a German Parliament but not in this House where they should take place. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business so that the Minister for Finance should come in today to discuss pre-budget alternatives and so that Sinn Féin should be given five minutes speaking time. This matter was voted on last week. We sought five minutes when group spokespersons are being given eight minutes. We wrote to the Leader and the Cathaoirleach to get speaking time on important issues. Perhaps we should have written to Angela Merkel because we may have secured more speaking time that way.

Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator’s party has done well.

Senator David Cullinane: I call on the Leader to afford us the five minutes speaking time given to statements being taken today. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business so that the Minister for Finance would come in to discuss pre-budget alternatives and so that a Sinn Féin representative would get five minutes in this context.

Senator John Kelly: There is a serious and potentially dangerous situation unfolding in County Roscommon as we speak. Yesterday, 14 firemen were taken off the payroll of Roscommon County Council for failing to attend a breathing apparatus refresher course. Every year they attend this course but there is a national proposal that the course would be done on the basis of a pass or fail mechanism although this has not been agreed nationally. By Wednesday, another tranche from Roscommon County Council will not attend the course until it is agreed nationally. It will also be taken off the payroll and we will not have sufficient cover in the event of an emergency. The county council responded today in The Irish Times by saying it would like to reassure the public that despite the reduced numbers each fire brigade in the county is fully operational. That statement is ludicrous because six firemen are needed to mobilise a fire brigade. Most of the units in Roscommon will have five or fewer. It also admits that the case is before the Labour Relations Commission, yet it is trying to force the hand of the firemen by using heavy- handed and bullying tactics. I gather the problem has been created by the ego of one man whom everybody knows and seems to be trying to settle scores. I cannot for the life of me understand how anybody could decide to shut down a fire department in a county. In most cases right across the country chief officers and assistant chief officers of the fire department have no practical training or experi- ence at putting out fires. They would not know how to put out a cigarette butt, let alone a fire. 568 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

I call on the Leader to address this issue with the Minister, Deputy Hogan. The situation is quite serious and by Wednesday it could be disastrous unless it is dealt with. I would appreciate a response from the Leader.

Senator Thomas Byrne: I, too, look forward to the budget proposals when they are announced. It is important to note the speculation in the newspapers is coming directly from Cabinet Ministers. It is very unfortunate because either a genuine battle is taking place to protect certain things or a sham battle is happening which is putting the fear of God into the Irish citizenry, only to then have proposals announced which are better than those initially circulated. It is a disgraceful way to treat people in the run-up to a budget and it is happening directly from leaks. We all crave stable government after the general election. There seems to be a huge insta- bility in the and Labour Party Government. I want to draw a matter to the attention of the Leader. There was a major leak from the office of the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, on the issue of Ministers driving in bus lanes. While it is of concern to some peoplem, it is not a huge concern of mine. The Minister seems to have gone to newspapers to remove himself from the decision and try to absolve himself of responsibility. That is a brand-new departure in Irish politics. A Minister has never distanced himself so openly from the decision. It is about time Ministers stopped doing this, acted collectively and confidentially, conducted their business around the Cabinet table, took the difficult decisions that are necessary in the interests of the country and stopped protecting their own positions. It is very dangerous and I am calling for a debate on collective responsibility in Cabinet. We are seeing huge breaches of it, in terms of the budget leaks and the other issue to which I referred. It is a small issue but it is important to make the point. My party will introduce a Bill next week on interest rates and forcing the regulator to do what the Taoiseach said it and the banks would be forced to do. Nothing has happened. We had a lot of waffle last week from the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes. The House can vote for or against the proposition next week. It will be a well drafted Bill. I want to raise the issue of the pension levy. We objected to the Finance (No. 2) Bill. Colleagues may remember we tabled an amendment to the Bill which would have mandated pension funds to absorb the charge, something which was opposed by the Government in the Bill. It was voted down by the Government side last week. The Minister, Deputy 1o’clock Noonan, wrote to pensioners to tell them there is scope for the pensions industry to absorb the impact of the levy from fee income and charges and he has written to it in that regard. We now have a new departure. The Minister will write to the pensions industry but not mandate something. I second the proposal of Senator O’Brien.

Senator Cáit Keane: I ask the Minister for Health to investigate the VHI in regard to cover- age for PET and CT scans. Until this year it provided coverage for those scans but it has introduced new regulations and patients are no longer covered. An eminent medical person said it is detrimental to good patient care and PET scan use is growing elsewhere, yet the VHI is going in the opposite direction. An eminent oncologist has pointed out that he is “constantly fighting” to get approval for these scans from the VHI and that this is “absolutely interfering” with his ability to treat patients. One patient approached the Financial Services Ombudsman and took the VHI on. The company relented in that case and the person in question was afforded cover. Without access 569 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

[Senator Cáit Keane.] to these tests, patients are embarking on courses of treatment, including surgery, that are unsuitable, unnecessary, costly and, in some cases, cause trauma to the patient. All of this is happening at the behest of the VHI. Aviva and Quinn Healthcare have not taken the same position, but it may be just a matter of months before they do so, because insurers generally follow one another. I congratulate the HSE on its decision to cover public patients for PET and CT scans. The executive is stepping up to the mark. However, a cancer specialist has pointed out:

Many cancer specialists are pushing their patients across the corridor into the public system to access the scans. This leaves the HSE to foot the bill for private patients.

Not only is this imposing an additional cost burden on the public system, it is also denying public patients their right of access to care. There are only seven PET scanners in the country, six of which are in private operation and available for use by public patients, in co-operation with the VHI, under the National Treatment Purchase Fund. Public patients are suffering as the queues get longer as a consequence of VHI pushing private patients into the public system to access this service. The Minister must take the VHI to task in order to ensure it provides cover for people who have been paying insurance for years. I read about a man who had been a VHI customer for 40 years but had to pay for a PET scan out of his own pocket this year. That is unacceptable and it must be investigated.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: Senator Norris has made a telling and focused contribution today. Those of us who are familiar with his work in this Chamber know the courage he has demonstrated on so many occasions. He has given a voice to people who had no voice and has always been consistent on issues of human rights, privacy and so on. As such, his concerns should be taken seriously in respect of his submission to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. In the long run he is doing a favour not only to this House, but also to journalism, which we all respect, and the freedom of the media. I hope the Leader will take his concerns on board. On another issue, faoi mar is eol dúinn go léir, tá sé i gceist Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga adhúnadh mar oifig reachtúil agus neamhspleách. Feictear é seo mar chúlúóthaobh na Gaeilge de agus is droch chomhartha é maidir le Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge. Ag féachaint siar ar na blianta, cuid des na deacrachtaí is mó abhí ann, ó thaobh cur chun cinn na Gaeilge de, ná nach raibh seirbhísí ar gcur ar fáil tré Ghaeilge nuair a bhí siad ag teastáil. Anois, tá Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla ann, ina luaitear gníomharthaí a bhfuil orthu seirbhísdátheangach a thabhairt. Tá ath-bhreithniúádheánamh ar an Acht sin i láthair na huaire. Bhí an Coimisinéar Teanga lárnach don obair sin agus is trua go mór go bhfuil sé i gceist deireadh a chur lena oifig, cé go mbeidh a chuid feidhmeanna ag dul isteach in Oifig an Ombudsman. Tá súil agam, mar sin, go mbeidh an Rialtas sásta éisteacht agus ath-mhachnamh a dhéanamh air seo, because the Coimisinéir Teanga is absolutely central to the 20-year strategy and to the legislation which we passed in this House. I hope it is still possible, even at this stage, to defend its independence as a statutory body. There is unanimity on the Irish language in this Chamber and goodwill throughout the country. This issue will strike a chord with many people. I ask the Leader to take it on board. It is not too late. We must maintain the independence of that office.

Senator Mary Ann O’Brien: As we prepare for the centenary celebrations of the 1916 Rising, I draw the attention of the House to a forgotten, although no less brave, cohort of men. During 570 Order of 22 November 2011. Business. the Second World War almost 5,000 Irishmen left or deserted the Irish Defence Forces to join the British Army to fight for democracy and the future and freedom of Europe. Many of these brave men never made it home, giving their lives on the battlefield of Europe. For those who returned, their heroism was met not with honour but with hostility. In August 1945, the then Government, headed by former Taoiseach, Éamon De Valera, circulated a list of almost 5,000 service men it labelled as deserters under the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945. This list was a blunt political tool denying these men their constitutional right to defend themselves in an Irish court. Membership of this list meant a person was barred from government employment for seven years and had to forfeit any pay due. Appallingly, it was the ordinary squaddie that was tarnished as officers were exempt. It was ordinary working class lads, some decorated for valour, that were not simply forgotten but punished for their part in the fight against fascism. At the time, Fine Gael, in opposition, appealed for their pardon but then Taoiseach, Éamon de Valera and Minister for Defence, Deputy Oscar Traynor, refused. Since then there has been a movement to have them pardoned as an act of compassion. I welcomed the statement of the Minister, Deputy Shatter, in the House in July that although desertion could not be excused in any Army he realised that the circumstances were somewhat different and was prepared to give the matter some thought. For these veterans and their families, I ask the Minister, Deputy Shatter, to revoke the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945 and issue a pardon to these brave men who fought with a sense of idealism and a commitment to protect democracy from tyranny.

Senator Michael Mullins: I call on the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Communi- cations, Energy and Natural Resources to come to the House at the earliest possible oppor- tunity to discuss the “Prime Time Investigates — A Mission to Prey” programme of 23 May in which a friend, a priest I know well, was defamed by RTE. Members will be aware that in this regard a settlement was reached in recent days with Fr. Kevin Reynolds. Irreparable damage was done to Fr. Reynolds’s reputation and if it were not for his loyal parishioners and friends, who stood by him, the damage to his health would also be irreparable. I am calling for a public inquiry into how RTE made that programme and the alleged large amounts of taxpayers’ money spent on repairing the damage done by RTE. The Minister must determine the cost to the taxpayer of RTE’s behaviour, following which funding to RTE should be appropriately cut this year.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Hear, hear.

Senator Michael Mullins: There are major ethical issues in regard to how the alleged victim was persuaded to make the allegation against Fr. Reynolds. I believe that other elements of that programme need to be investigated. I have reason to believe that Christian Brother Dillion who had——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Mullins should not name another individual.

Senator Michael Mullins: Okay.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I was chastised not too long ago for doing so. The Senator should not go down that road.

Senator Michael Mullins: I have reason to believe that another person was seriously defamed in that programme. 571 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator is seeking a public inquiry into the matter. I ask that as his time is almost up, he stick to that point.

Senator Michael Mullins: The person concerned is no longer living and as such does not have an opportunity to defend himself. There are serious issues contained in that programme that must be investigated. One allegation was made against the person concerned, who is deceased.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator is, by innuendo, making the person concerned known, which is inappropriate in this House. It would be more appropriate for the Senator to stick to his point in regard to a public inquiry.

Senator Michael Mullins: I have been provided with information that calls into question the basis on which the programme was made. I ask that the Leader invite the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to the House to discuss the awful injustice done to Fr. Reynolds and the potential injustice to other victims named in the programme and what appropriate action can be taken in that regard.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator is well over his limit.

Senator : The very survival of this House is under threat. I suggest that our behaviour here last week did not enhance our chance of survival. The way we behaved was not acceptable and we need to be very careful in future that we earn the respect of those who are going to make that decision in the future. Following Senator Norris’s plea to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to give serious consideration to his obviously deeply-held concerns, I urge the committee to do so. I ask for a debate on the announcement yesterday by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, regarding the guidelines for the size of shopping centres and supermarkets likely to be built on the outskirts of towns. These guide- lines were introduced some years ago. The Minister is of the opinion that they should be changed. I was impressed at the size permitted in the Dublin area whereby it would be increased from 3,500 sq. m to 4,000 sq. m and different sizes would apply in cities such as Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford. The reason I raise this matter is that I think the Minister clearly believes that the fight against the rise in the cost of living would be enhanced by this measure. However, I read that it has come about because the EU-IMF bailout terms insist on such a measure. It is exactly the sort of measure we should be debating in this House. I am concerned at the rise in the cost of living and the fact that the cost of living impacts on every household in the country and if this can be alleviated by the introduction of larger stores, that is well and good. However, I have been in quite a few towns around the country in the past two years and the main streets of many towns are devastated because of the shopping centres that have been built on the outskirts. A solution to this problem needs the sort of attention this House could give. The Minister stated that the recommendations are based on a Forfás recommendation of last year. I am concerned that if we are to bring our costs of retailing and of living into line with other countries, we must ensure that the centres of so many towns are not devastated. I was in Drogheda last week and it was interesting to see what could be done by buying local. Thirty food producers in County Meath and County Louth in the areas close to Drogheda met a group of approximately 50 customers — eateries such as delicatessens and restaurants. These businesses did not realise there were so many good producers in their own area. I suggest that every part of this country should consider buying local and Members could set an example 572 Order of 22 November 2011. Business. to the rest this Christmas deciding to buy local and certainly to buy Irish. The answer is in our own hands. We should also have a debate in the House.

Senator : I will be brief but what I have to say is important. It has come to my attention that a young boy in who is severely disabled is being denied an eye-activated computer by the Department of Education and Skills. This computer costs in the region of €12,000 but it is his only way of communicating with the world as he is unable to communicate otherwise. I know that budgets are tight but what price do we put on a child being able to communicate with this world? The computer would not even cost as much as what Bertie Ahern used to spend on his make-up——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Or Enda Kenny on his hair.

Senator Marie Moloney: Whatever.

(Interruptions).

Senator Marie Moloney: It is far more important that this child gets what is essential for him. The special needs report has been submitted but the Department is refusing to grant the fund- ing. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Education and Skills to come to the House. I know the budget is imminent and he is probably tied up with the preparations but I ask that he come to the House as soon as he can to tell us why his Department is refusing to provide funding of €12,000 for a child who badly needs this equipment.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: I echo the call for an inquiry into the RTE programme. The general public is outraged. Some of the articles I read at the weekend leave me in no doubt that RTE has serious questions to answer on this issue. So far, no head has rolled and although RTE went through the motions of making a full apology, which I accept, I wonder if it came from the heart. We must look very seriously into that. Belatedly, and following the discussions of last week, I turn to the proposed closure of the embassy to the Holy See. After listening to people in rural Ireland over the weekend, I believe the Government has made a ham-fisted job in this regard. The subject will not go away. At this stage, rightly, we have separated church and State, having, in the days of the great Jack Lynch, moved an amendment to the Constitution to establish this. Although the Catholic Church has no special position under our Constitution it still has a special position in the hearts of a great number of people in this country. This is seen as a knee-jerk reaction by the Labour Party element in government to try to catch up with the Taoiseach’s speech on the infamous day he went over the top about the Vatican. This matter must be revisited. I ask the Leader to invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, to come to the House and discuss the situation. I fully support the comments of our colleague, Senator Norris, in regard to taking an overall look at and reviewing the media in this country. Like most Members on this side of the House, I was in the unusual position of not having a party candidate in the presidential election and therefore was able to take a more objective view of media reporting than I normally would. The whole media handling of the presidential election was a thundering disgrace, to quote an infamous comment made at one time by somebody else belonging to the other side of the House. It was outrageous. Each candidate, with the possible exception of the winner — who well deserved to win and will make a great President but concerning whom I did not see much critical analysis — was peeled like an onion every day of the week. It was mortifying. It will be a brave man or woman who will put forward himself or herself to be Uachtarán na h-Éireann in seven years’ time if he or she is to be subjected to the kind of unfair comment 573 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

[Senator Ned O’Sullivan.] to which Senator Norris was subjected. I ask people to revisit the headlines in the Irish Indepen- dent in the week before polling day and consider the analysis of one particular candidate and the way in which he was dismantled.

Senator : Yesterday in the west of Ireland there was an announcement stating that Ryanair will be flying to and from four destinations in Europe, in France, Spain, Germany and Italy. This is fantastic news for both the west and midlands and should be cel- ebrated. No doubt it will increase tourism in the region. Other airports in the country should take a lead from Knock Airport on this. It did not happen by accident but was strategic. The airport reduced its costs and that is why it is getting the business. Both Shannon Airport and Dublin Airport should learn from Knock, a small airport by comparison, but significant in the successes it has had in a relatively short period. I do not know if this warrants a debate but it is certainly worth mentioning. I join Senator Norris and, in particular, Senator Mullins, regarding their comments on the media. I cannot put the matter any better than they have, with the different points they made. It appears the media believe they are in power in this country and we really need to stand up to them. I do not know who they think they are at this stage. I do not mean to personalise this — it is not a personal issue — but legally the media is obliged to make an apology to a person they have wronged. However, in many cases they only do so when they are so advised. Their behaviour is unacceptable and I join other speakers in seeking a debate on the issue. I join Senator Quinn in the comments he made about retail and buying locally. We must do this and must stand up to the multinationals as much as we stand up to anything else. It irks me to have to go to certain shops to buy certain items. I want those items to be available locally. As Senator Quinn stated, that matter is within our control. I would welcome a debate on the matter in the House because it warrants one.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I dtosach báire, ba mhaith liom ceist a ardú leis an Cean- naire. Tá iarratas déanta le tamall anuas maidir le díospóireacht faoi chúrsaí Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta. Tacaím leis an méid a dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Murchú maidir leis an gCoimisinéir Teanga. Ní dóigh liom go dtuigeann an Rialtas na himpleachtaí ar fad a bhaineann leis an cinneadh a fógraíodh an tseachtain seo caite. Ardóidh méésin leis an Aire Stáit níos déanaí. Baineann an cheist seo le comhthéacs níos leithne maidir le cúrsaí Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta. Tá sé fíor-thábhachtach go mbeadh díospóireacht againn maidir leis an straitéis 20 bliain, todh- chaí Foras na Gaeilge, an tsamhail nua mhaoinithe do na heagrais Gaeilge, todhchaíÚdarás na Gaeltachta agus mar sin de. Bheadh mé fíor-buíoch dá mbeadh an Ceannaire in ann soiléiriú a thabhairt dom faoi cén uair a bheidh an díospóireacht sin againn agus cén uair a bheidh an Aire Stáit istigh linn. Ba mhaith liom tacú leis an leasú ar Riar na hOibre atá molta ag mo chomhghleacaí,an Seanadóir Cullinane. I would like to second the amendment to the Order of Business that has been proposed by my colleague, Senator Cullinane. A number of comments have been made about the order of the House last week. What happened was regrettable. There will be two debates at the end of this week about the role of the Seanad. I would like to confirm that Sinn Féin and its members want to play a constructive role in this House. We want to subject Government policy, and the policies of parties that have gone before us, to constructive criti- cism. We do not believe we are being afforded an opportunity to do that. We will use the democratic means that are available to us in this House, just as the Government parties did when they were in opposition.

Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear. 574 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: We will do that until we feel our rights have been upheld. We want to act in a constructive way that adds to and broadens the debate. If we are able to bring people in from outside the House to discuss the role of the Seanad, we should allow Members to do likewise. I would like to conclude by asking the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to consider the possibility of organising a parliamentary confusion workshop. When one examines some of the statements that have been made by members of Fine Gael and the Labour Party in recent days, it is clear that there is a certain amount of confusion among them. They are not sure whether they are in government. They seem to be castigating their own Ministers and their own party policies, only to vote with the Government parties when they come to these Houses. It would be very useful if a parliamentary confusion workshop could be organised to explain the difference between being in opposition and in government, and between following a party Whip and not following it.

Senator : This Government has been endeavouring to help unemployed people in genuine ways. I am shocked and disappointed that in recent days, the INTO has decided to issue a directive to its 32,000 members to the effect that they should not participate in the JobBridge internship scheme for newly qualified teachers. Everyone in this House should come together to say that is neither acceptable nor right in these times. The union is objecting and ordering its members not to participate on the grounds of exploitation. We need to look at the realities. No posts will be displaced. All public posts in schools are advertised. Newly qualified teachers will benefit from this scheme by gaining experience. Importantly, they will be allowed to complete their periods of probation during these internships. The classroom teachers whose classes will be taught by those participating in the internship scheme will be allowed to work with those children in their classes who need extra help. Alternatively, they will be able to work on school improvement plans. I fail to understand how anybody is being exploited in these circumstances. It is a win-win all around. I appeal to the INTO and the TUI, through the Seanad, to reconsider and reverse this decision. We are not in ordinary times. JobBridge is a short-term measure to help our people in the short term. It is no more and no less than that. I would like the Leader to ask the Minister, Deputy Quinn, to intervene with the teacher unions as a matter of urgency. The Minister should allay their fears and request their co-operation for the sake of newly qualified teachers. Almost 3,000 people have qualified as teachers in the last two years. If the union’s approach continues, it will be protectionism in the extreme. In my view, it is unfounded.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator has made her point.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: There is no need for it. I appeal to the Leader to seek a response from the Minister, Deputy Quinn, on the question of the type of negotiations he is involved in with the teacher unions. If he gets a response, perhaps he will bring it back to the House tomorrow.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Go raibh maith agat.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: As a former member of the INTO, I am very disappointed.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator’s point has been well made. I call Senator Crown.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: On a point of order, is it in order to attack a trade union that has given such service to this country——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I do not think that is a point of order. 575 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: ——and to teachers and pupils for almost 100 years?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I am ruling the Senator out of order on that one. I call Senator Crown.

Senator : I share the concern of some of my colleagues regarding the unfair treatment of Fr. Kevin Reynolds by RTE. Has it come out in the public domain yet as to which side’s lawyers enforced the gagging order that is preventing us from finding out about the settlement? It would be useful to know this. Having seen it in the health service, as a statement of general principle, public bodies should be prevented from enforcing gagging orders when disputes of this type arise. We had a Marie Antoinette moment in the House last week. I apologise if I am perseverating on a matter raised by my esteemed colleague Senator Quinn and others. As a fair outsider to the political system, what went on here last week was nothing short of appalling. In fact, it is being understated as to how grossly irresponsible it was to have a series of endless quorum calls, procedural motions and every vote taken in triplicate when everyone knew the result. It was not only wasteful of our time but of the public purse. It is not something that any Member should be doing. The blame is as much on the Government side as it is on this side.

Senator Catherine Noone: It is not.

Senator John Crown: If there were any difference between the two major parties that got involved in this hissing fit, it would perhaps be of some relevance.

Senator David Cullinane: Well said.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: That is outrageous.

Senator John Crown: Of course, there is no difference, as we know. When one disrupts the proceedings of this House, one is wasting taxpayers’ money. As a result of the disruptions last week, we need extra time for today’s session to make up for the time which could have been used more profitably last week. May I remind Members what the Seanad should be? It should be deliberative, non-partisan and bring a different kind of experience to the one found in a House populated by full-time professional politicians. That was the intent of the framer of our Constitution. He sought a diversity of skill-sets to be brought into the House to be used for the benefit of the public. It should not be an ongoing endless Dáil cheanntair meeting for non-existent fantasy constituenc- ies into which it is degenerating.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: What is the Senator’s constituency?

Senator John Crown: It is thoroughly unedifying. If one could have tried to design a better advertisement for the campaign to abolish the Seanad, one could have done rather little worse than just filming one hour of what went on here last week. Will Members please acknowledge that the core of a democracy is the structure of its parlia- ment and the way it is elected? We must insist on a debate with the Taoiseach on the Seanad’s future which will prepare the public for its deliberations on it rather than another rushed referendum. The Government must explain its intentions with respect to one half of the Parlia- ment of our real Republic and the timing of a referendum on it.

Senator : The Leader of the Opposition called for the Minister for Health to attend the Seanad for a debate on health services as soon as possible. I hope when he does 576 Order of 22 November 2011. Business. attend he will bring the most modern cure and strongest tablets for amnesia. That prescription will have to be applied to the Opposition benches. Members on the other side seem blissfully unaware that this day 12 months ago, the IMF came to town to clean up the mess caused by Fianna Fáil Governments and to bring some financial assistance to a country that was then bankrupt, and which is now slowly but surely beginning to improve. Last week, I called for a debate on the budgetary options because I am politically tired of hearing people pronounce what they are against while failing to come forward with plans and proposals.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: A four-year plan has been published.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Bradford without interruption.

Senator Paul Bradford: All I hear from Fianna Fáil Members is what they are against. I know they have much to be silent about concerning what they did over the past 12 years in ruining the country. A debate on the budget could go in tandem with some reflection on how we have progressed with the EU-IMF deal. We need to debate the financial options available to us. As for my friends in the Sinn Féin Party who are wondering whether they would get more speaking time on the budget if they wrote to the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, I must remind them that its party and its paramilitary wing was in close contact with the German Government in the 1940s. Perhaps that level of co-operation might be a wise move.

Senator David Cullinane: What about Senator Bradford’s party who were fascists?

Senator : I have been told by many people, particularly the very people for whom Senator Bradford prescribed amnesia tablets, that the proposed VAT increase will cost jobs and businesses along the Border even though, as indicated earlier, it had been in the memorandum of understanding agreed to by the Fianna Fáil Party.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: In 2013 and 2014, not 2% at once.

Senator Kathryn Reilly: Over a number of years, perhaps not at once. Is it possible to have a discussion on the economy in the Border counties about which we have heard so much over the past few days and in the light of fact the Fine Gael presidential candidate did not know how many counties were in the State currently. I ask the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to come to the Seanad to discuss how the proposed budget measures will affect the Border economy and counties such as Cavan, Monaghan, Louth, Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim. We hear about people crossing the Border in times of recession or at the time of changes in the budget, which is why I am calling for a discussion on the proposals in the budget.

Senator Martin Conway: I join with other speakers in requesting the Minister for Communi- cations, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte to come to the House for a debate not only on the RTE debacle but the behaviour of the press in general. We have come to a point where we must reflect seriously on the sweeping powers of the press. I encourage my colleague, Senator Mullins who has made salient points that he should pass on the additional information he has to the Garda Síochána for criminal investigation because it sounds as if it warrants that. A number of Members have called for a debate on the budget. I think it would be a good idea if we were to consider a lengthy pre budget debate in both Houses. In other countries the 577 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

[Senator Martin Conway.] Budget Statement is effectively a summation of a period of deliberation, discussion and analysis of pre-budget submissions and various different proposals in the parliaments. I think the kite flying and leaks that happened in the past couple of weeks and indeed over the years is most unhelpful. That deliberation and discussion should happen in the parliamentary structure and the budget speech on budget day should be a summation of the best that has emanated for it. A final point.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Be brief Senator.

Senator Martin Conway: In terms of the child benefit payment, I think the comments of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar were very correct and telling. It is completely inappropriate that the child benefit payment is not in any way a means tested payment. Even at this late stage, I call on the Government to look at the possibility of self declaration. It is wholly unacceptable that people on an income of €100,000 or a €1 million should benefit from this payment. That is not what the scheme is designed to do. I think self declaration to be followed by a proper means test is the appropriate approach for the future.

Senator : I join with my colleagues in wishing to raise the Fr. Reynolds matter. I pay tribute to the solicitors who acted for him. People are open in their criticism of the legal profession, but this was a case where the legal profession stood by their client in spite of the fact that it was up against a major player in the Irish media. The solicitor took on the media and came through with the truth. That is a tribute to the solicitor and to the legal team who acted for him. I recollect dealing with RTE on a similar matter a number of years ago when we served a High Court writ on RTE in the reception area of the RTE studios to find the writ dumped into the waste paper bin in front of our eyes. That is the way we, as members of the legal profession, were treated by them. I congratulate the teams who acted for Fr. Reynolds in this case. I wish to raise an issue on the European Globalisation Fund, a matter I raised previously. Last week the European Parliament voted through €35.7 million for Irish construction workers who have lost their jobs. I know that a number of MEPs have raised concerns about ensuring that every cent of that money is used for the retraining and upskilling of people who have lost their jobs this country. I would like to have a debate because on previous occasions, some of the money from the European Globalisation Fund had to be refunded to Europe. I want to ensure that the same mistakes are not made again. It would be appropriate to have a debate and to identify the issues that arose on the last occasion and ensure they do not arise again. I would like the Minister to come to the House to explain the difficulties that occurred the last time and to make sure we have dotted all the i’s and crossed the t’s on this occasion to ensure none of the money has to be refunded.

Senator Maurice Cummins: The Leader of the Opposition referred to the speculation regard- ing child benefit. It is only speculation and the Cabinet is meeting today. No decisions have been made other than on the Minister of Finance’s proposal regarding VAT, which is based on the IMF bailout programme signed up to by the previous Government.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: It had nothing to do with child benefit.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: No interruptions, please.

Senator Maurice Cummins: I will inquire whether the Minister for Health could be available later this week to discuss the community nursing home issue outlined by Senator O’Brien and, therefore, I do not propose to accept his amendment to the Order of Business. 578 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Senator O’Keeffe stated the number of homeless people in Dublin has increased significantly. We should all address this as much as possible. There is a need for more beds for homeless people and I will raise this with the Minister, especially coming up to Christmas as the weather gets colder. I have made a number of requests to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to come to the House to deal with the issues of Syria and Egypt and to have a general debate on foreign affairs. I will get back to the Senator on that. Senator Norris referred to the despicable practices of some media sources in the UK and he questioned the activities and conduct of the media here. I assure him that any complaints made to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will be investigated thoroughly, as they have been previously. Senators Ó Murchú, Mullins, Conway and O’Sullivan also sought a debate on the role of, and ownership of, the media. I will endeavour to have the Minister for Communi- cations, Energy and Natural Resources come to the House for a debate. This issue should be debated in this House. Senator Paul Coghlan raised the treatment of tax exiles. I am sure the matter will be addressed in the budget proposals. The amount they paid over the past year is certainly not acceptable and I am sure the Minister for Finance will address that matter. Senators Cullinane and Bradford sought a debate on pre-budget submissions. The Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brian Hayes, has attended the House on a number of occasions to deal with the ECB interest rates and other issues.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The mortgage arrears implementation strategy.

Senator Maurice Cummins: We asked for a debate on the capital programme leading up to the budget and that will be taken later. I will endeavour to have the Minister of State in again before the budget but Sinn Féin has published its proposal for everybody to see. I would like an opportunity to dissect some of the nonsense in the proposals.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Have Fine Gael’s proposals been published?

Senator Maurice Cummins: The party’s proposal to scrap the universal social charge and replace it with health and income levies would increase the tax on low paid workers.

Senator David Cullinane: We would reduce the income levy on low paid workers and those earning up to €75,000 a year.

Senator Maurice Cummins: It also proposes standardising all tax reliefs, which would increase the tax burden on ordinary workers.

Senator David Cullinane: As the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine should have done before he appeared on “Tonight with Vincent Browne”, the Leader should read the full document before he comments on it.

Senator Maurice Cummins: This would also result in reduced mortgage interest relief.

Senator David Cullinane: The Leader should read the full document and not just quote half of it.

Senator Maurice Cummins: I have addressed the issue of speaking time repeatedly, as have other Senators.

Senator David Cullinane: It has not been addressed. 579 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Senator Maurice Cummins: During the lifetime of the previous Seanad, a former Sinn Féin Member had no difficulty with the time allocated because he joined another group. It is open to the current Sinn Féin Senators to encourage people to join a larger group. If such a group is formed, its members will have the same time allocated to them as that which is allocated to everyone else. The former Sinn Féin Senator to whom I refer — Deputy Pearse Doherty — joined another group when he was a Member of the House.

Senator David Cullinane: We have asked for five minutes and the Leader cannot give it to us.

Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Kelly referred to fire service training in Roscommon. I will raise that matter, which is under arbitration at present, with the Minister for the Envir- onment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan. Senator Byrne referred to Ministers and the Cabinet acting collectively. I assure him that they are acting collectively. The comment made by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, related to a freedom of information request. Senator Keane referred to the fact that the VHI is not providing cover in respect of PET scans. There is an anomaly in the system in this regard. I will raise this matter with the Minister for Health because it is ridiculous that consultants can refer public patients for such scans but that the VHI will not provide cover in respect of them for people who are paying private health insurance. Last week, Senator Colm Burke referred to the VHI providing cover in respect of patients at a new hospital in Cork. Perhaps it might be possible to arrange a debate on the overall matter of health insurance with the Minister. Senator Ó Murchú requested debates on the independence of An Coimisinéir Teanga and on the Irish language. I have asked that the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy McGinley, come before the House for a debate on the Irish language. I hope to receive a response from the Minister of State in respect of that matter soon. Senator Mary Ann O’Brien referred to seeking pardons for Irish soldiers who fought for the rights of small nations in the Second World War. The Minister for Justice and Equality and Defence has commented on this matter in the past and I will take it up with him. Many men from throughout this country left to fight for the rights of small nations during the Second World War. I am of the view that consideration should be given to issuing pardons in respect of them. Senator Mullins called for a public inquiry into why RTE broadcast a television programme relating to Fr. Kevin Reynolds. I understand a request has been made to the effect that the Joint Committee on Communications, Natural Resources and Agri- 2o’clock culture should investigate the matter. Regardless of what is deemed to be the appropriate forum, the matter will certainly have to be addressed because it is far too serious to be brushed under the carpet at this stage. Senator Crown inquired about gagging orders and that issue should also form part of the debate on the matter relating to Fr. Reynolds. Senator Quinn inquired with regard to planning regulations and the primacy of town and city centres. That is an extremely important issue. In recent years shops and retail outlets in such centres have closed. Any changes to the planning regulations should be debated in the House. If new regulations are to be introduced, I will ask the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come before the House to discuss them. Senator Moloney referred to the question of obtaining an eye-activated computer for a young boy who lives in the constituency in which she resides. I suggest that she raise this matter on 580 Order of 22 November 2011. Business. the Adjournment in order that she might obtain an adequate and first-hand reply from the relevant Minister in respect of it. Senator O’Sullivan also asked for a debate with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, on the proposed closure of the embassy to the Holy See. I am seeking to have him attend the House. Senator Noone complimented Knock airport on Ryanair expanding its services. We all would compliment Knock airport on its negotiations in having its services expanded. In response to Senator Ó Clochartaigh, persons from outside the House will attend the House to discuss the rights of older people, which is a subject for consideration by the Seanad Public Consultation Committee. I do not believe the Senator would try to prevent them from attending the House. It will be a good debate in the committee and is something that should be encouraged.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: On a point of order, I would like that statement to be retracted. I never even mentioned those persons.

Senator Maurice Cummins: It is something that this House should be going along with.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: That is unfair.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: What is Senator Ó Clochartaigh’s point?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: That is an unfair statement, that I am trying to keep persons from attending the House. I said the opposite.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: It was completely out of order.

Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Healy Eames raised the stance of the teachers’ unions on the internship programme and the need for young teachers to get experience. That is an important matter and I will inquire with the Minister for Education and Skills as to the nature of the negotiations in that regard. In response to Senator Crown, I addressed the question of public bodies being prevented from making gagging orders in such cases as the RTE case. I would agree totally with the Senator’s opinion on what the Seanad should be about. Disruptive proceedings in the House are not to be encouraged.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: On a point of order, the Leader will be aware that last week both my party and Sinn Féin followed procedures which are set down by this House——

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Hear, hear.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: ——to make the point——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator O’Brien’s point is made.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: ——because two of our Members were not allowed to speak on Second Stage. They were gagged. If it happens again, I have no difficulty——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator O’Brien has made his point. 581 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: ——doing the same.

Senator Maurice Cummins: To answer the point of order, that is not correct.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Leader gagged them.

Senator Maurice Cummins: The ruling of the Chair——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Leader gagged them.

Senator Maurice Cummins: ——was that there was no Fianna Fáil Member here at the time.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Not correct, and the Leader knows that.

Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator O’Brien’s point of order is not correct.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Not correct at all.

Senator Maurice Cummins: It was ruled upon by the Chair at that point.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Can the Leader confirm that the Opposition parties abided by the Standing Orders?

Senator John Crown: At it again.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader without interruption.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I am sorry if we discommoded Senator Crown for a few votes. We are here to participate in the democratic process.

Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Reilly raised the issue of VAT increases and the Border economy. Difficult decisions must and, as I stated, will be made. That may form part of the decisions that will be made in the budget. We must try to get back our economic sovereignty. That is what the Government was elected for. The Government will do its best to protect the vulnerable in society and produce a fair budget but it will be a difficult budget for everybody. Senator Conway addressed the RTE situation and also proper means testing of child benefit. I believe all would agree that there must be proper means testing. Child benefit should go to those who deserve it most — the vulnerable in society. That is what the Government will work towards. Senator Colm Burke asked how the globalisation fund, a fund on which he worked hard when he was a Member of the European Parliament, will be distributed for training, etc., to construction workers. It is a matter which I will raise with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton with a view to having him in to the House to debate the issue.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Darragh O’Brien moved an amendment to the Order of Business, “That a debate on the Government proposals for the 120 community nursing homes, including Abbeyleix and St. Brigid’s Hospital, Shaen, be taken today.” Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Darragh O’Brien: With the permission of Senator Crown, I will move the amend- ment to the Order of Business.

Amendment put.

582 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 30.

Tá

Byrne, Thomas. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Cullinane, David. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. Leyden, Terry. Power, Averil. Mooney, Paschal. Quinn, Feargal. Mullen, Rónán. Reilly, Kathryn. Norris, David. Walsh, Jim. O’Brien, Darragh. White, Mary M. O’Sullivan, Ned. Wilson, Diarmuid. Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.

Níl

Bacik, Ivana. Healy Eames, Fidelma. Bradford, Paul. Heffernan, James. Brennan, Terry. Henry, Imelda. Burke, Colm. Higgins, Lorraine. Clune, Deirdre. Keane, Cáit. Kelly, John. Coghlan, Paul. Moloney, Marie. Comiskey, Michael. Moran, Mary. Conway, Martin. Mulcahy, Tony. Crown, John. Mullins, Michael. Cummins, Maurice. Noone, Catherine. D’Arcy, Jim. O’Keeffe, Susan. D’Arcy, Michael. O’Neill, Pat. Gilroy, John. Sheahan, Tom. Harte, Jimmy. Whelan, John. Hayden, Aideen.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and ; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.

Amendment declared lost.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Cullinane has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: “That a debate with the Minister for Finance on the pre-budget proposals be taken today and that five minutes be allocated to a Sinn Féin Senator in that debate.” Is that amend- ment being pressed?

Senator David Cullinane: It is. Amendment put. The Seanad divided by electronic means.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: De réir Ordú 62(3)(b), táim ag iarraidh go dtógfaí an vóta arís ar bhealach seachas bealach leictreonach.

Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 15; Níl, 31.

Tá

Byrne, Thomas. Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor. Cullinane, David. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Leyden, Terry. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. Mooney, Paschal. O’Brien, Darragh. Norris, David. O’Sullivan, Ned. 583 Order of 22 November 2011. Business.

Tá—continued

Power, Averil. White, Mary M. Reilly, Kathryn. Wilson, Diarmuid. Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Bacik, Ivana. Heffernan, James. Bradford, Paul. Henry, Imelda. Brennan, Terry. Higgins, Lorraine. Burke, Colm. Keane, Cáit. Clune, Deirdre. Kelly, John. Coghlan, Paul. Moloney, Marie. Comiskey, Michael. Moran, Mary. Conway, Martin. Mulcahy, Tony. Crown, John. Mullen, Rónán. Cummins, Maurice. Mullins, Michael. D’Arcy, Jim. Noone, Catherine. D’Arcy, Michael. O’Keeffe, Susan. Gilroy, John. O’Neill, Pat. Harte, Jimmy. Quinn, Feargal. Hayden, Aideen. Sheahan, Tom. Healy Eames, Fidelma.

Tellers: Tá, Senators David Cullinane and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.

Amendment declared lost. Question put: “That the Order of Business be agreed to.”

The Seanad divided: Tá, 29; Níl, 13.

Tá

Bacik, Ivana. Heffernan, James. Bradford, Paul. Henry, Imelda. Brennan, Terry. Keane, Cáit. Burke, Colm. Kelly, John. Clune, Deirdre. Moloney, Marie. Coghlan, Paul. Moran, Mary. Comiskey, Michael. Mulcahy, Tony. Conway, Martin. Mullen, Rónán. Cummins, Maurice. Mullins, Michael. D’Arcy, Jim. Noone, Catherine. D’Arcy, Michael. O’Keeffe, Susan. Gilroy, John. O’Neill, Pat. Harte, Jimmy. Quinn, Feargal. Hayden, Aideen. Sheahan, Tom. Healy Eames, Fidelma.

Níl

Byrne, Thomas. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. Cullinane, David. Power, Averil. Leyden, Terry. Reilly, Kathryn. Mooney, Paschal. Walsh, Jim. O’Brien, Darragh. White, Mary M. O’Sullivan, Ned. Wilson, Diarmuid. Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe; Níl, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson.

Question declared carried. 584 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Recommendation of Committee on Procedure and Privileges: Motion. Senator Maurice Cummins: I move:

“That Seanad Éireann agrees with the recommendation of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that, in accordance with Standing Order 57(2) of the Standing Orders relative to Public Business, Dr. Mary Robinson, President of the Mary Robinson Foundation — Climate Justice, former Senator, President of Ireland and United Nations High Com- missioner for Human Rights be invited to address Seanad Éireann on 24 November, 2011 and the following arrangements shall apply. The proceedings, which shall not exceed two hours, shall consist of a speech by the Cathaoirleach welcoming Dr. Robinson, an address by Dr. Robinson, a contribution not exceeding five minutes by the spokespersons of each Group and a contribution not exceeding two minutes from a Sinn Féin Senator at the conclusion of which Dr. Robinson will reply to questions, which shall not exceed one minute in each case, from members in accordance with the schedule below and a speech of thanks by the Leas- Chathaoirleach for the address and a concluding contribution by the Deputy Leader of the House.

Schedule

Fine Gael Senators: 2 questions

Fianna Fáil Senators: 2 questions

Labour Senators: 2 questions

Taoiseach Nominees: 2 questions

University Senators: 2 questions

Sinn Féin Senators: 1 question.’’.

Question put and agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 2.30 p.m. and resumed at 3.30 p.m.

Infrastructure and Capital Investment: Statements, Questions and Answers Acting Chairman (Senator Feargal Quinn): Before calling the Minister I welcome a visiting party of economics students from Trinity College. I welcome the Minister for Public Expendi- ture and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin.

Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Brendan Howlin): I am happy to be back in the Seanad again so soon. Last week, I presented the Government’s capital spending programme for the next five years to Dáil Éireann, having announced it the previous Thursday. It was part of a series of important announcements leading up to budget day, which commenced with my colleague, the Minister for Finance, publishing the medium-term fiscal statement on 4 November, followed by my announcement of a series of reforms in the public sector on 17 November. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the capital review with the Seanad today and hope that we can have a productive exchange of views. As in all other matters, I have a very open mind to views that are expressed. All decisions are difficult, especially in times of retrenchment, and I am aware that Members would like if more projects were proceeding. We regret having to 585 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Deputy Brendan Howlin.] delay projects but I am interested to hear the reflections of Senators on the programmes I have announced. It is important to reiterate at the start of this debate that the capital allocations I have announced are based on what we can afford. It is not a wish list, although I am aware that others would like to expand them. In that context, we have prioritised the investments that are most needed. Other desirable projects have to be put on hold until the public finances have improved. The Government’s priorities are clear and are evident in the plan — jobs, schools and health care. The plan is also based firmly on the fact that we are effectively at the end of a major phase of Exchequer funded capital investment. Over the past decade, some €70 billion was invested in infrastructure and the productive sector. Judged by a range of measures, the quality and quantity of the country’s stock of infrastructure has been considerably augmented in the last decade. The plan is grounded in the reality that we need to reduce spending, which is an inescapable reality. Thus, there has been a reduction in the quantum of expenditure over the medium term. This must be our priority. We must reduce our deficit, regain our national sovereignty and put ourselves in a position where we have more resources available again. We have had to make some stark choices. We must focus on key needs; hence, we have had to delay some projects that had been planned for some time. However, one project that we are happily in a position to part-fund is the construction of the new children’s hospital. When I say “part-fund” I mean that complete funding will be provided, but from two different sources. We will supplement this with some of the proceeds from a new licensing arrangement for the national lottery, which will involve an up-front pay- ment in exchange for a longer term licence. Details of this proposal will be brought to the Government early in the new year. It is being worked out in detail at present and is obviously commercially sensitive. Subject to planning approval, it is expected that construction of the hospital will start in 2013 with initial enabling works to start next year. Without this innovative approach, it would have been a major challenge to find the necessary funding for this important national facility. The capital investment report lays out the public capital programme allocations for the com- ing years. In addition, the Government is determined to maximise the use of all available resources to promote growth and job creation. We are pursuing a strategic investment strategy, bringing together a number of strands of non-traditional funding, through NewERA and the strategic investment fund. On the day of the announcement of the public capital programme, I announced that the strategic investment fund is now in a position to fund up to €1 billion investment in new and existing infrastructure assets primarily aimed at the commercial semi- State sector. This will be the first of a number of funds we intend to roll out under the umbrella of the strategic investment fund. Where it makes sense and offers value for money, we will also be utilising public private partnerships, PPPs, to deliver public infrastructure alongside more traditional procurement. It must be stated that the private funding market for PPPs is currently very challenging. Bank credit is in short supply internationally and our sovereign debt situation presents its own diffi- culties. At my request, my officials are actively engaging with private institutional investors to see whether it might be possible to match our immediate funding requirements for projects with their long-term income stream needs. It does appear that there is an emerging interest in infrastructure investment among the pension fund industry, perhaps reflecting the volatility and poor returns from other forms of investment. A series of meetings is being organised with my Department to progress this matter. My officials are also in consultation with our European counterparts to explore best practice and similar initiatives undertaken in other jurisdictions. 586 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Indeed, I met last Thursday with representatives of the European Investment Bank, including its vice president, along with my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Noonan, to explore a variety of funding avenues that might prove possible. The capital review represents the findings of a Government-wide review of infrastructure and capital investment policy led by my Department. While I have been up-front that the level of resources available to us does not match the investment of recent years, it remains the case that this plan sets out a significant tranche of investments over the next five years designed to facilitate economic growth and build on our social infrastructure. Possible negative consequences of reduced capital spending are tempered by recent improve- ments in the economy’s infrastructure, perhaps best illustrated by completion of the new motor- way network. I should not say completion as there are a few little gaps I am aware of that need to be addressed. This has aided businesses through much faster travel times. It helps to boost tourism by easier and faster accessibility to the regions. With the critical road infrastructure gap largely addressed, a shift in emphasis towards other areas of infrastructure is now possible. Despite very difficult budgetary parameters the capital investment programme for 2012 to 2016 will amount to just under €17 billion. In 2012, the allocation will be €3.9 billion, reducing to €3.3 billion in 2013 and stabilising at €3.2 billion in the following three years. As I have previously stated, the profile of capital spend will now see an increasing share of what is a scarce resource allocated to the important areas of jobs, schools and health care facilities. Creating jobs remains a top priority for Government. A range of reforms of activation and training are in progress and this review commits major resources to the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. While the need to address fiscal targets will require some reduction in funding to research and development, we are ensuring that our direct supports to industry will be maintained in excess of pre-recession levels when total capital expenditure was at its highest. In other words, although the overall envelope of capital expenditure has shrunk, the percentage directed to direct supports to industry will be greater. This will enable the IDA to deliver on its Horizon 2020 strategy, targeting the creation of 105,000 new jobs and 640 investments in the years 2012 to 2014. Enterprise Ireland will continue to support the growth and development of Irish enterprises in world markets. Its science tech- nology and innovation budgets will increase the number of high performance start-ups, sup- ported to 95 in 2012, and includes a new fund of €10 million to attract new high performance start-ups. While Science Foundation Ireland’s, SFI, budget has been marginally reduced, 2012 will see SFI funded activities move into the applied research arena, which is something we were anxious to do. The €156 million allocation will enable Science Foundation Ireland to significantly enhance commercialisation opportunities emanating from SFI funded research, particularly through the enhancement of the Technology Innovation Development Award programme. A total of €27 million will be allocated for the programme for research in third level institutions and for research in the areas of energy, biosciences, arts, humanities, social sciences, medicine, pharmaceuticals, food and health. Demographic pressures mean that we must provide for an additional 70,000 pupils in primary and secondary levels. I have, therefore, allocated €2.1 billion specifically for the delivery of an additional 40 schools — 20 at primary and 20 at post-primary level — and the expansion and- or renovation of a further 180 schools. This level of investment has squeezed out other possible investment in third level areas but we must prioritise and a sufficient number of school places for children has to come first. In addition to investing in the national children’s hospital, we will sustain capital investment in health care generally. The review maintains existing levels of health capital investment into 587 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Deputy Brendan Howlin.] the medium term — €390 million per year or €1,950 billion for the period 2012-2016. This investment will also allow for the replacement of the Central Mental Hospital, long promised but now to be delivered, and the continued rollout of the national project for radiation oncology ensuring we have full implementation of the national cancer strategy. We will also be assisting in our focus on primary health care as a key component of the Government’s strategy to deliver local care and take pressure off the acute hospital sector. In addition to the €5 billion already invested in improving water services in the past decade, environmental infrastructure continues to be a priority for Ireland. Consequently, alongside structural reforms to the water sector, water services investment will be a key focus of the capital programme I have published. From 2012 to 2016, over €1.6 billion of Exchequer resources will be committed to the water area. This will help ensure adequate capacity for economic development and meet pressing environmental targets. I have allocated €500 million to the OPW and that includes funding for flood relief prog- rammes in which, as recent events remind us, we need to invest significantly. In recent years the State has spent heavily to incentivise households and businesses to enhance energy efficiency. We will continue a level of support in the short term but given fiscal pressures, a transition to non-Exchequer based solutions involving energy suppliers is envisaged during the period of the plan. As I have said, the motorway network may be practically complete but we are still allocating significant funding in the transport area. This will ensure the adequate maintenance of the national road network in order to protect the value of previous investments and target the improvement of specific road segments where there is a clear economic justification. On the public transport side, it has been necessary to put on hold some of the large scale projects that had been previously signalled.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Cancelled.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: However, we aim to restore our public finances. The objective of this Government is to restore the broken finances we inherited a few short months ago——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: A lot of broken promises.

Senator Martin Conway: We have a broken economy.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: ——so that we can afford to undertake such projects in the not too distant future. It is our firm resolve that we will put our economy in such a place that we will be able once again to make our own investment decisions and be free of the oversight of the troika which, unfortunately, is now brought in to overview——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: They are the Minister’s decisions.

Senator Thomas Byrne: The troika did not tell the Minister to cut spending by €700 million.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It is extraordinary that people who were part of an Administration which brought our economy to its knees a few short months ago, and I believe this is the anniversary of the——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: That is beginning to wear thin, Minister. You are in control now, apparently.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: ——of the troika coming in. 588 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator Martin Conway: And we cannot even afford a cake.

Senator Marie Moloney: Unhappy anniversary.

Senator Thomas Byrne: We took the right decisions for which the Minister is now claiming credit.

Acting Chairman (Senator Feargal Quinn): The Minister, please.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: The last time I heard somebody argue year zero was Pol Pot when we are supposed to forget all that went before.

Senator Thomas Byrne: The Minister should ask his colleagues in Cambodia——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: We are determined to restore our public finances——

(Interruptions).

Deputy Brendan Howlin: ——to ensure we can afford to undertake such projects in the not too distant future. Notwithstanding this, the transport allocation will include the commence- ment of the linkage of the two Luas lines, incorporating a line extending to Broombridge in north west Dublin, the railway safety programme that has been set out, replacement buses, and the upgrade of existing quality bus corridors will continue to be delivered. It is worth pointing out that the smaller projects we are emphasising such as road mainten- ance projects, school building projects or school renovation projects tend to be significantly more labour intensive than the larger, grandiose engineering works that had been proposed. Some €800 million will also be invested in programmes through the Department of Agri- culture, Food and the Marine, bringing major economic and environmental benefits as that sector is important also to our economic recovery. It is important to note that the agrisector’s contribution to the economy has been hugely resilient. They are leading the way on exports and the level of funding allocated will be a major help. Although there have been calls to continue with a high level of capital investment in order to stimulate economic activity, our priority at this time is to reduce the deficit. The bottom line is we are borrowing €18,000 million this year. Nobody will give us that money except the troika, and they will give it to us on their own terms and we need to reduce our deficit to 8.6% of GDP next year. That means increased taxation and cuts worth €3.8 billion. There is no gainsaying that. In this context, the public capital programme has to be scaled back. It is Darby O’Gill economics for anybody to suggest that we continue to spend regardless. However, I believe that we are providing for a level of funding that will not constrain the capacity of the economy to grow. This is the normal bench- mark for deciding on the appropriate level of infrastructure investment. It is worth pointing out that in the years to 2016, average public capital spending will remain broadly in line with the European average, despite the tight fiscal constraints.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: It used to be double.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: There was a time when a Government thought they had money for everything. Unfortunately it was not their money.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Minister’s party used to argue for more.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It now falls on this responsible Government to cure that terrible malaise. 589 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Deputy Brendan Howlin.]

We are continuing to fund a wide range of capital programmes and projects — €17 billion is still a very significant amount of money. The areas with an increased share of the overall capital allocation, compared with the last capital review in 2010, are education, health and enterprise, reflecting both my priorities and those of the Government.

Senator Thomas Byrne: The public is getting sick and tired of spin and more spin. The spin we are hearing from the Minister today is the same spin we heard with the publication of the jobs initiative. Following research by my colleague Deputy Michael McGrath, we find that the jobs initiative meant taking money off pensioners and putting it into an Exchequer black hole. Unfortunately, unemployment has increased throughout that time. The Minister and his colleagues are now telling people that the Government is now commit- ted to spending €700 million less per annum than what Fianna Fáil agreed with the troika last year. The Government is making its own decision in accordance with the economic sovereignty of this State. According to an article in the Irish Independent two weeks ago, it is deciding to make the cuts in capital expenditure to avoid the more difficult decisions on welfare and on other areas of current public expenditure.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Would the Deputy prefer to cut social welfare?

Senator Thomas Byrne: The Government is cutting capital expenditure, which provides our one chance of creating jobs and getting people off welfare. Fianna Fáil has proposed a capital expenditure programme amounting to 3.5% of GDP. The Government’s fudge of a programme contains some of our plans, but has no new plans of its own. In fact, the only project prioritised by the Government parties is the one project they opposed trenchantly in Opposition, which is the construction of the national children’s hospital. How ironic that every other project they supported seems to have gone by the wayside while the project they cynically opposed is getting the go ahead. We are glad they have seen sense. Last December, the Minister, Deputy Burton, stated that even with public finances under pressure, we need to invest in the delivery of the 21st century infrastructure networks that we need to enhance competitiveness and drive growth. That is exactly the opposite of what the Government is doing today. What has happened to change Government policy to such an extent that it is cutting €700 million from important infrastructure projects? It is most unusual for the Labour Party to cut capital spending. Labour Party Members boast about 40 new schools and 180 extensions to schools. By doing so, they are allegedly prioritising education. What about the summer works scheme that has been completely eliminated? What about minor works for schools that have been completely eliminated? What about the third level sector? That has been completely eliminated under the capital budget. Constructing 180 extensions to schools represents four to five schools on average per constituency. There are seven schools with two miles of my house that need an extension.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: That is a great record for 14 years in government.

Senator Thomas Byrne: It is a great record because it is due to the increase in population. Under Fianna Fáil, these schools would have received their extensions.

(Interruptions).

Senator Thomas Byrne: That is a fact. We had extra money in the kitty and if the Minister asked his colleagues, he would find out that there are another seven schools within two miles that have got extensions over the last two or three years. However, it is complete spin to say 590 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers. that health and education are being prioritised. The only health project that is going ahead is the part-funded national children’s hospital, which the Government parties cynically and trenchantly opposed when in opposition and which delayed the project——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: The Central Mental Hospital, the national oncology centre——

Senator Thomas Byrne: What about the hospital in Navan? We were told by Fine Gael Deputies before the election that not only were they promising the delivery of a new regional hospital for the north east, but along with the Minister, Deputy Reilly, they had already met investors who were willing to put money into that project. Were we all told lies before the election?

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Yes.

Senator Thomas Byrne: That seems to have been the case because nothing has happened since and there is nothing in the capital plan about a regional hospital for the north east.

Senator : What about the lies Fianna Fáil told the Irish people this time last year?

Senator Thomas Byrne: This time last year the Labour Party and Fine Gael trenchantly opposed the budget, yet this year they are claiming credit for implementing it. We implemented it in the budget. What about the bank resolution legislation that enabled the Government to burn junior bondholders, which they trenchantly opposed this time last year in the Dáil? Fine Gael Members have a habit of saying we are cutting X,Y and Z due to Fianna Fáil’s deal with the troika. This non-stop mantra is getting tiresome and it adds nothing to political discourse in the country. Capital expenditure is one area where every ounce of responsibility for cuts, such as the Slane bypass in my own constituency and metro north in north Dublin, lies with Fine Gael Party and Labour Party Deputies and Senators. They are responsible for the 9,000 jobs that will be lost to the economy next year. I know some of those people who were waiting to see if metro north could get the go ahead so that they could continue in their jobs, and I am sure the Senators opposite know some of them too. The Government has made much noise about the focus on health, education, jobs and enterprise, but the facts are that there is little or no reality to that. Some of the major projects in transport that are stalled or stopped include the Slane bypass, the A5 motorway, metro north, DART underground, the regional hospital in Navan, the prison at Thornton Hall 4o’clock — I understand there are plans for prisons at Army bases and I am investigating this, because it is not acceptable — and the relocation of the DIT to Grange- gorman. This is sending out a signal to the world that we are not interested in third level education at a time when our university sector is under more pressure than ever. Cutting capital spending is an easy option in a recession. It is what the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party did in the 1980s. It is the wrong decision. Government backbenchers and Ministers were harking on about the need for stimulus in the economy when in opposition over the last few years, but when the opportunity arises to stimulate the economy through major infrastructure projects, they cut and cut because they do not want to take really tough decisions that we took and they opposed, even though they now claim credit for them. My party is opposed to this spending programme. It goes much further than we were ever willing to go. It goes further than what the troika suggested we do. Let us nail this lie about the troika. Their representatives will tell anybody who has met them that they have no objection to whatever decisions this Government takes under its own economic sovereignty, provided the 591 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Senator Thomas Byrne.] targets are reach. The Minister is agreeing with me. It was open to this Government to make its own decision on capital spending. It made its decision and we opposed it and the troika had no say over it, as long as the Government got to the bottom line, which we have to reach anyway. Added to the hike in VAT being proposed in the budget and the failed jobs initiative, this is a deathly blow to the economy and something that all Government Members need to think long and hard about. When people complain to them about no hospitals and schools being built or repaired, they should tell them that these decisions were made to avoid other politically difficult decisions.

Senator Tom Sheahan: I welcome the Minister and I would like to congratulate him. When this programme was published last week, one would expect that there would be some kind of kick back. However, the majority of people, including myself, would think that as we are in recessionary times and we should expect the basic provision of services. We have to go back to the grassroots and our core job. Everybody understands we are in a recession, but they expect a good level of education for our children, a good health service and the right to feel safe in their homes. Two of those issues have been addressed in this programme. How long has the national children’s hospital been on the agenda, with Fianna Fáil in power for 14 of those years? It was before I ever came into public life.

Senator Thomas Byrne: Fine Gael opposed it trenchantly and held it up.

Senator Tom Sheahan: I would have to think back to know how long it has been on the agenda. I must compliment the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues on the fact that this is now happening. Personally, I do not agree with the location of the site, but that is a different issue.

Senator Thomas Byrne: Fine Gael accused us of all sorts of things to do with that site.

Senator Tom Sheahan: It is going ahead, and the general public will appreciate that the Government is doing what it set out to do and what it has a mandate to do, namely, to provide a national children’s hospital. It must be applauded and I am delighted it is going ahead. On the education side, there is no doubt that a lot of money was spent in schools. I feel sorry for Senator Byrne, who did not achieve much for his constituency while he was in power.

Senator Thomas Byrne: Unfortunately, many of them are in the Louth constituency where I live. There are many schools in Meath.

Senator Tom Sheahan: I can only speak from my own experience when I was in the other House with Senator Byrne. Major projects went ahead in my constituency. Maybe that is a reflection on Senator Byrne, I do not know.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Jackie Healy-Rae.

Senator Tom Sheahan: There are 40 new schools. I listened with great interest to the Minister, Deputy Quinn, when he outlined the demographics and so on. These will not be your two and three-teacher schools. Many of these national schools will be equipped for up to 700 children, while secondary schools will be even larger, to the best of my knowledge. This is to cater for the demographics. 592 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

As I outlined earlier, education, health and a feeling of safety in one’s home are important. The latter is something which does not come under the heading of what we are discussing today, but we do need to protect our Garda force as much as we possibly can. They are the three main things that people expect. There is realism among the public about where we are, or rather, where we have been driven to, and they want the present Government to get us out of that and get us back on an even keel. Regarding investment in infrastructure, I am glad the road network, mainly the motorway network, has been vastly improved over the years. Now the concentration will be on main- taining our primary and secondary road networks. I applaud that because the secondary road network was neglected in favour of the motorways. The important point here is access to the regions. I am from a very peripheral area in Kerry South and access to our region is not great. From Dublin to Cork and Dublin to Limerick the roads are excellent, but unfortunately the road from Cork via Macroom and Ballyvourney is in an awful state, which is hindering progress in our region. From the other side, there is a motorway to Mitchelstown, but access to Kerry via Mallow is not good enough. I would like to think that will not be forgotten about. While I applaud and welcome the intention to maintain the road infrastructure we have, access to the most peripheral areas should not be forgotten. I welcome the children’s hospital very much, and that is where the funding has gone. Primary health care effectively consists of looking after people in their homes rather than in hospital. There is a bit of a contradiction here when one considers the cutbacks in home help hours and so on. There should be a rejig in this regard. Recently, the Minister’s colleague, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, announced the creation of 95 jobs in one of his imaginative schemes, but it was at a cost of about €2 million. Is that right? I always understood that investment in jobs and so on worked out at about €100,000 per job. This project works out at about €200,000 per job, or is that a misunderstanding on my part? If that is what the creation of jobs will cost, we have a hard road ahead of us. I recently read that the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Hayes, hopes to introduce reform of procurement procedures which will save up to €2 billion. Is this possible? If such savings can be made by changing the way the State does business, that is a proactive and positive measure. The Minister mentioned investment in agriculture. This is the one industry that is providing a serious return at present. The goals set for Ireland in Food Harvest 2020, to do with food security and so on, have ensured that the graph is going only one way in agriculture. I commend the investment in agriculture because it will be more than returned to the Exchequer. Public private partnerships have been used in many areas to provide services and facilities. One thing that really galls me is the issue of toll roads. These were built through public private partnerships, but the Government had to buy them back, and the amount it had to pay sickened me. I expect that more appropriate fiscal measures will be put in place to ensure we are not fleeced at the end of the line. Maybe that is how business was done by previous Admini- strations. Tourism is a massive growth area. We already have 10% growth in this area, although this has dropped. The potential in tourism is phenomenal and we really need to grasp the oppor- tunity. Recently I spoke to the Minister for Finance seeking €1.5 million for a tourism proposal, and he said that if I wanted it for capital, he does not have it and he does not expect to have it in the future. The Minister spoke in his presentation about means of obtaining funding, be it through private investment or public private partnerships, and said that pension funds and so on are where the real money is. I mentioned to the Minister for Finance the regeneration 593 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Senator Tom Sheahan.] project that is currently under way in Limerick and said that this proposal, for €1 million or €1.5 million, would regenerate the whole of south Kerry, creating jobs and bringing massive inward investment. I hope that specific projects such as that will be no-brainers for the Govern- ment, as they will create jobs and bring employment into areas that are under pressure. I hope they will be considered in a sympathetic manner. Overall, I compliment the Minister on the work he is doing. I am glad he has kept to the core delivery of services in health, education and job creation.

Senator Sean D. Barrett: As always, I welcome the Minister to the House and I welcome what he is doing to try to restore the economic sovereignty of the country. I take as one of my themes a comment on page 9 of the infrastructural capital investment document that the Mini- ster produced last week. It states: “There is a need to improve the quality and coverage of programme evaluations and it is all the more critical that individual investment projects are supported by rigorous and objective appraisals.” This was a gap in the system and we need to set up and to have ready for when the economy revives proper capital investment appraisal in this country. The Minister is preparing fiscal responsibility legislation. Proper capital appraisal should be a part of that when it is brought before us. Too many projects are allegedly analysed by the promoting agencies through public relations hand-outs. We need a strong central evaluation office. I will call it COPE, the central office of project evaluation. In his memorandum in April to the spending Ministers, the Minister suggested they carry out such an evaluation quickly before they are captured. The capture of so much of the public capital programme by the construction industry and the capture of all of Government by the banking industry three years ago did not serve this country well. Capital is wealth set aside for the production of future wealth. It is no longer adequate to mention verbally some benefit and to suggest ipso facto a project should go ahead. All of this should be quantified to determine whether a project represents any return on the capital involved. We must carry out ex post cost benefit analyses as well to determine where the mistakes were made because the process involves learning for the future. The Minister’s con- stituency colleague was here some time ago discussing the Central Statistics Office and its professionalism and independence were the two key factors he stressed. We need these in economic appraisal and evaluation as well. We are keen to know whether projects have come in on cost and whether there is any penalty when they do not because that is standard moral hazard problem. We want to know the shadow prices, test discount rates and the opportunity cost of projects. We want independence in these evaluations. We are keen to see measures that the Minister is bringing forward with regard to the registration of lobbyists. Too many of these projects arise from lobbying. The proposed whistleblowing legislation is relevant as well. Often at gatherings of senior public servants I have been told that a certain person knew that a given project was no good but they did not write it down or tell us. This is a parliamentary democracy and if there are doubts about projects, they should be expressed. If the proposed whistleblowing legislation helps this, it will be valuable to us. Project appraisals should be published at least one year in advance and then the Parliament and those in public life and wider civil society should be allowed to come up with alternatives. Sometimes the alternatives are damned because they are chosen by the person who is promoting the main project. One of the lessons from the independent Irish fiscal advisory council, a good model to follow, is that multipliers in Ireland are small. This is a small, open economy and one should not expect great stemming benefits. A project must be good in itself and not reliant on multipliers. I was 594 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers. pleased to learn that Edgar Morgenroth from the ESRI is helping the Department because he has an outstanding reputation and his expertise is needed. I am concerned with some of the old-fashioned rules. The engineers promoting the Clontarf seafront project maintain they must spend the money in five weeks or it will be gone. If the money goes back to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Control, Deputy Brendan Howlin or the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan to spend on something else, I have no objection. The question is whether it is a good project. That is an old engineering problem which has been around for some time. I am a sceptic of public private partnerships. The convention centre is mentioned in the document. What will this cost and what will the annual losses amount to? Is it simply a case of hire purchase, an expensive way to buy anything? Capital is not free; it must be properly costed in projects. I look forward to some of these developments in the fiscal responsibility Act due to come before us. Page 18 of the document to which I referred earlier refers to a business case but I am sceptical of this. Is this a case of a project not passing a cost benefit analysis and then sub- sequently someone else was asked to prepare a business case, whatever that is? We need tight definitions rather than a collection of clichés. With regard to the fiscal responsibility Act we are probably dealing with the fact that when the public capital programme was introduced in the 1940s it was done on a rather casual basis. However, it needs a strong legal basis on which it can be implemented. I turn now to some of the correct decisions the Minister made last week and which I com- mend. There is always concern when a project is dropped such as the A3 road from Aughnacloy to Derry but there are two seriously underperforming toll booths on the M3 between Kells and Dublin and there is a requirement to compensate the partners involved. If there is evidence that the demand for something is not what we expected it would be when we planned the project then we should not continue to repeat the mistake. There are similar concerns with the Limerick to Cork motorway. The Limerick tunnel is costing us money and we must compensate the private partner because the demand has not materialised. I was always sceptical about metro north. If one is on the east side of the city one can access the airport quickly from Sandymount, Blackrock, Dalkey and such places through the port tunnel and if one is on the west side, the M50 improvements mean one can also get to the airport quickly. I note there are 1,200 mostly empty parking spaces at the Dunboyne M3 Park- way area by the railway station. Any case for extending the railway from there to Navan must demonstrate whether there will be a pick-up in demand because it is not evident at the moment. Besides, Navan is already served from Drogheda by train and if people want this we should establish whether we can run a rail car on it. Capital investment is not always a solution and sometimes it goes wrong and one must learn form these lessons. The DART underground was always a mysterious project. One can travel from Connolly Station to Heuston Station by LUAS and there is also a double-track railway line with concrete sleepers and electronic signalling that goes past Croke Park, Phibsborough, Cabra, under the Phoenix Park tunnel and into Heuston. We were asked as part of the DART underground project to build a third railway line between two railway stations in Dublin. It seems bizarre that the project ever advanced so far in the then Department of Transport. Rail safety was mentioned. I hope the faults in the system that missed the Malahide viaduct collapse are remedied before we put in any more money. The Sea Scouts seemed to see it and, fortunately, the driver of the train who set off the alarm saw it as well but the people in charge of railway safety at the top level did not see it. 595 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Senator Sean D. Barrett.]

The Minister mentioned integrated ticketing. It appears that it will cost €60 million to per- suade three State transport companies to accept each others tickets. This is a bizarre situation. In the Minister’s constituency we gave money to Rosslare Europort and then someone took out the train tracks and located them half a mile away so that one must walk in the rain to get there. It is a good job we have wheelie suitcases. What was the purpose of the project to remove the train from a station which had been built with European money and our money? There have been many other strange capital projects. We built an investment project in Dún Laoghaire Port but we did not get any guarantee of its use and it is now idle for half the year because the company concerned has no wish to use it. We must also develop industrial policy on a broader front. Some €4.7 billion is refereed to in the document but the concern is that since 2005 there has been a drop of approximately 50,000 people working in manufacturing. The public relations hand-outs that accompany indus- trial policy in Ireland should refer back to reality. Brendan Drumm believes our health services are heavily institutionalised and other speakers have referred to this. I realise the Minister is bringing forward legislation to de-regulate the general practitioner lists so that perhaps some health care can be transferred, as recommended in many of the texts from hospitals, to the general practitioner and the community. I appreciate the Minister’s enthusiasm for the new hospital he proposes but perhaps we have too much of a hospital fixation given that there are alternative ways to manage health care. More strongly, many people in criminology welcome the decisions to put Thornton Hall on reserve. Alternatives to be considered include electronic tagging, the probation service, com- munity service and restorative justice. There is no need for an edifice complex in capital expen- diture dominated by the construction industry. I dislike using the cliché but if there are better or smarter ways of doing things then we should do them. The Minister made many correct decisions last week. We need to improve the context in which the correct decisions were made because I would be afraid once the Exchequer filled up the same people who were awarded projects on previous occasions would be back. We need a strong professional, independent economic service in the public sector to do this. We need to learn the lessons from having to be bailed out by the IMF, the ECB and the EU. I wish the Minister every success in that endeavour.

Senator Aideen Hayden: Like other speakers I welcome the Minister to the House. It is clear to all of us that we are living in changed economic times. The clear priorities set by the capital programme are jobs, schools and health and doing the best we can with what we have. It sounds like a statement of the obvious, but we are where we are and it is what it is. It is quite interesting that our colleagues on the other side of the House seem to have completely ignored the fact that the previous Government cut spending from its peak by at least 50% and cut it again in 2011.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: It was 5% of GNP last year.

Senator Aideen Hayden: It is also true to say that they seem to be suggesting to us that we should be cutting social welfare payments, health, education and current spending rather than capital spending.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Perhaps the Minister could confirm he will not cut social welfare or child benefit. 596 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator Aideen Hayden: I find old habits die hard. It is quite interesting that the Fianna Fáil Party is lecturing the Labour Party on our spending priorities. This Government has maintained its commitment to the capital investment group and we will spend €17 billion over the next five years. It is not a small amount of money and compares favourably with the proportion of GNP spent by our European colleagues, some of which are a lot wealthier than this country. I welcome the Minister asking the House for its ideas. I am delighted the Government has prioritised the future needs of children and young people. Our most recent census of population clearly indicated that we, unlike many of our European neighbours, have robust population growth, which alone will make the Irish economy more sustainable in the future by ensuring we have a balanced representation of younger earners to older people in society. The growth in population will have to be funded and we have to make a financial commitment to it. This programme goes some way to doing that. I welcome the commitment of the Government to the national children’s hospital. It is an absolute disgrace that in all the years of the Celtic tiger, when we were incentivising construc- tion in every field in the country, we did not manage to build a state-of-the-art children’s hospital. It is incredible that it falls to this Government, in the middle of the deepest recession this country has ever faced, to have to complete the task the Fianna Fáil Party did not manage to achieve in 14 years. It is an absolute disgrace. I also welcome the significant commitment of the Government to build primary and second level educational infrastructure. I regret we do not have the money to do more but I take Government’s point that we have to put money in at the bottom. It is to be hoped we will be better off in a couple of years time and be able to all back on some ongoing projects in our third level institutions. I have a suggestion which relates to the mistakes of the past. We have a difficulty in this country, due to the excessive cost of housing in the decades to 2007, in that many people were forced to live in the outer suburban commuter belts. People found themselves living in places like Gorey, which is the Minister’s constituency, where the infrastructure simply did not match the growth in population.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It is a very nice place.

Senator Aideen Hayden: It is an excellent place. It would be very tempting to start building many schools on greenfield sites but the reality is a lot of older urban areas have suffered from significant ageing population. Infrastructure and services are in place in areas which do not have children to fill schools. We need to go back to the drawing board to some extent, in terms of planning, rather than being driven by the immediate demand we are facing. With regard to the proportion of the programme devoted to transport infrastructure, it is important to acknowledge that Ireland, due to the actions of the last Government, made major strides in the transport system. It is only logical that when we reach a point in time where we do not have to keep pushing money into the same road system, we are able to move on. We should not be decrying the fact that we are cutting the transport budget, despite the fact it was decried in the national media. The transport infrastructure in Dublin has suffered through successive decades of Governments ignoring its issues. I would loved to have seen the DART interconnector. I disagree with Senator Barrett; we are probably one of the few capital cities in the world where one cannot arrive at an airport, get on a train, get into the centre of town and join an integrated rail structure. 597 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Senator Aideen Hayden.]

I would also have loved to have seen metro north. Some of the poorest areas of this country are in the north of Dublin city and metro north would have brought some much needed jobs, despite not being the best return on capital investment in terms of employment. I am very sorry these projects are not proceeding. I welcome the Luas interconnector. It is one of three projects and I hope the Minister has a chance to revisit the other two. I concur with Senator Barrett. We must ensure that projects which comes to selection pro- cesses have been robustly arrived at. Individual Departments conduct their own analysis on which projects should proceed but it is not clear to the ordinary man or woman on the street how decisions on particular projects were reached. I am conscious that decisions were made by the last Government — I will use the Minister’s constituency as an example — where money that was set aside for the N11 around the Beehive, a particularly dangerous section of road, was shelved in favour of the ring road around Waterford because it happened to be the pet project of a particular individual.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Who was that?

Senator Aideen Hayden: We have to move away from that type of system where particular Ministers, who were members of the Fianna Fáil Party, delivered public projects on the basis that they were not delivering for the people of Ireland but for particular constituencies.

(Interruptions).

Senator Aideen Hayden: The reform agenda for which the Minister is responsible provides a great opportunity to bring openness and transparency to these type of decisions. He recently announced the cancellation of most of the decentralisation programme, which is to be wel- comed. It is nothing short of the truth that fortunes were made on foot of this policy by party faithful through land sales and general profiteering with no thought whatsoever as to why——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party are good at looking after the party faithful.

Senator Aideen Hayden: ——projects should be located where they were.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: There were appointments to the Bar.

Acting Chairman (Senator Feargal Quinn): No interruptions, please.

Senator Aideen Hayden: Premiums for decentralisation were simply thrown out and scat- tered to the four winds. It was a bit like “The Late Late Show”, where there was one for everyone in the audience. I ask the Minister to dust off the Buchanan report. We have an opportunity to link clear national and regional policy with our infrastructure and capital investment programme. There needs to be a clear link between regional and national priorities and money spent. It should be spent in a transparent and costed fashion using principles of best practice. We need to arrive at a situation where every citizen, taxpayer and individual in the State can look at the decisions made and know exactly how and why they were arrived at. I welcome the commitments to jobs and job creation in the capital programme. I suggest the funding that travels through the IDA and SFI be robustly assessed and targeted to achieve the maximum regional impact. 598 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

I ask the Minister to exercise some caution with regard to the housing capital programme. The current priorities have moved from traditional construction acquisitions policies and the buy and build model towards leased-based and revenue funded options. Local governments have a long and proud tradition as housing providers in this country. Although the current Government strategy is focused on moving current support anything away from the Depart- ment of Social Protection towards local authorities, there is a real danger that we will find ourselves in a crisis situation with regard to housing much more quickly than would anticipate. We are currently relying on the overhang in the housing system but the reality is that we have almost 100,000 households on the housing waiting lists. We also have a defunct banking system which will not lend for housing purposes. We will very quickly find ourselves, given the level of housing needs, population growth and a defunct banking system, in a position where we will not be able to deal with housing need. I ask the Minister to keep that at the back of his mind in terms of our approach to housing. I welcome the Minister’s commitment to the Limerick regeneration project and his announcement that other regeneration projects will be strategically prioritised. I am well aware, as we all are, of the misery of the residents of Dolphin House, St. Michael’s Estate, O’Deveney Gardens and other housing developments awaiting regeneration. These people were left entirely in the lurch by the last Government. The living conditions in these State housing projects is deplorable and a cause for shame. We must bear in mind the experience of those residents when considering future public private partnerships. Such arrangements are not the answer in every case. I thank the Minister for seeking the views of the Seanad on this issue.

Acting Chairman (Senator Feargal Quinn): Would the Minister prefer if we take several speakers — perhaps five — in a row before passing over to him for reply?

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It is entirely in the Acting Chairman’s hands.

Acting Chairman (Senator Feargal Quinn): If the Minister is agreeable, we will proceed in that fashion.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Perhaps I might deal with three speakers at a time.

Acting Chairman (Senator Feargal Quinn): That is fine.

Senator David Cullinane: Sinn Féin tabled an amendment to the Order of Business this morning proposing that speakers be given five minutes each during this debate, but it was rejected. The group of Taoiseach’s nominees does not have a single representative in the Chamber for the debate, yet we are not being given adequate opportunity to address the Minister.

Acting Chairman (Senator Feargal Quinn): That is not relevant. The Senator should not waste his two minutes.

Senator David Cullinane: I am making a point, which I am entitled to do. Senator Hayden referred to political patronage, giving as an example the stretch of the N11 which was not renovated as against the completion of the outer ring road in Waterford. The majority of funding for the latter came from the disposal of assets by Waterford City Council in conjunction with an additional investment by the council. The project was driven by the city manager and the council, not by any Minister, and the greater part of its funding came from local funds rather than central government. If we are talking about political patronage, we might consider 599 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Senator David Cullinane.] the judges appointed by the Labour Party on account of their political connections. In addition, we had the disgraceful decision, to which the Leader has indicated his agreement, that the VEC headquarters be based in Wexford rather than Waterford.

(Interruptions).

Senator Aideen Hayden: Senator Cullinane is looking for a Waterford versus Wexford debate.

Senator David Cullinane: Senator Hayden raised the matter of Waterford versus Wexford, not I.

Acting Chairman (Senator ): Does Senator Cullinane have a question for the Minister?

Senator David Cullinane: I merely clarified the nature of the funding for that project, for Senator Hayden’s benefit.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator has 30 seconds remaining to put a question to the Minister.

Senator Aideen Hayden: Were the nine roundabouts absolutely necessary?

(Interruptions).

Senator David Cullinane: I have several questions to put to the Minister. The domestic economy is on the floor, with 470,000 people out of work and more than 100,000 forced to emigrate. Electricians, plasterers, plumbers and builders are out of work, yet the Government is taking €700 million from capital investment. In Waterford, commitments were given in respect of a 50-bed community nursing unit on the grounds of St. Patrick’s hospital and an oncology unit which would provide palliative care. Neither of these projects is included in the revised capital programme. Roads throughout the country are in a poor state of repair. Funding has been taken from local government. We have tabled——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator’s time is up.

Senator David Cullinane: We put forward a pre-budget submission which includes a raft of proposals, yet we are not given appropriate time to address the Minister.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I have called Senator Martin Conway.

Senator David Cullinane: We have been given two minutes to speak on this important issue.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am under strict instructions that Senators must be confined to two minutes each.

Senator David Cullinane: The Minister spoke about alternatives, but the Government is not prepared even to debate those alternatives with Sinn Féin.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The arrangements for the debate were agreed earlier. Senator Cullinane must give way to Senator Conway. 600 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator David Cullinane: We are being given no opportunity to discuss the alternatives we have proposed.

Senator Martin Conway: While none of us is in agreement with the entirety of the prog- ramme, we must all recognise that there is little choice in the matter. This country is being funded by the EU and IMF. We are not where we want to be, and we must deal with that reality. We have to cut our cloth according to our measure, in a situation where our bills are being paid for by others. I have always held the Minister in very high regard. The impressive manner in which he has compiled the capital programme has raised him further in my estimation.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Senator Conway must be looking for something.

Senator Martin Conway: I agree with Senator Sheahan’s comments on the importance of maintaining connectivity to the regions and facilitating balanced regional development. We must ensure our limited resources are spent prudently, fairly and regionally, so that all citizens are given equal opportunity and access and different areas can perform to the best of their ability. In my own area, County Clare, a review of the future management and role of Shannon Airport is ongoing. We must ensure our airline hubs, including Shannon, which has an airway capable of taking jumbo jets, are operating to their potential. I look forward to that report.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator’s time is up. I must be strict on time- keeping today.

Senator Martin Conway: I attempted to begin my contribution several times but was prevented from doing so by interruptions.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I cannot make any concessions. The Senator is over time.

Senator Martin Conway: I have one simple question.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator has no time remaining. I have called Senator Darragh O’Brien.

Senator Martin Conway: Will the Minister expand on his comments on the national lottery?

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator must give way to Senator O’Brien.

Senator Martin Conway: What does he propose in respect of the new licensing arrangements?

(Interruptions).

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Acting Chairman, I am unable to speak.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I cannot allow Senator Conway to continue. He is taking from other Members’ time.

Senator Martin Conway: Senator Leyden is as comfortable in the Chair as he is on the floor of the House.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I have been given a job to do and I am adhering strictly to the two-minute rule. 601 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator Martin Conway: The Acting Chairman is not doing his job fairly.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am doing it very well.

Senator Martin Conway: With respect, you are not.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I know what two minutes looks like on the clock.

Senator Martin Conway: The Acting Chairman is not doing his job fairly and he is not treating me with respect.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator had more than his share of time. I have called Senator O’Brien.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Minister indicated that €1.6 billion is committed to water services investment between 2012 and 2016. Under the greater Dublin strategic drainage scheme, it is envisaged that a monster sewage treatment plant will be constructed in north County Dublin, which is not required, at a cost of between €2.3 billion and €2.7 billion. I urge the Minister to re-evaluate that project, which does not stack up in terms of value for money. Localised plants are the way forward rather than a massive Ringsend II. I hope the issue has been raised at Cabinet by my constituency colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly. As Senator Hayden said, people are gravely disappointed at the decision not to proceed with metro north, in respect of which firm commitments were given by the Government. The project would create 6,000 direct construction jobs and 37,000 jobs thereafter. In my view, the project has been cancelled rather than deferred, despite the commitment given by the Minister for Health before the election. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varad- kar, gave a similar commitment when he told people in Swords that it was his number one priority and stated his “strong support” for the project in February 2011. The people of Dublin North do not believe him when he says the project is merely deferred. I acknowledge the economic constraints under which the Government is operating, but many of the decisions that were taken — not all but many of them, particularly in the case of the metro north project — seem to neglect the needs of north Dublin. The decision to proceed with the connection of the Luas lines will see construction work taking place on the north side of the city for the benefit of people on the south side. Will the Minister confirm that the metro north project, on which vast sums have already been spent, will be reviewed in 2015? It will return money to the Exchequer and we could have 260 jobs immediately if the enabling works were allowed to proceed. The cancellation of the project is a grave disappointment to the people of my constituency.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I thank Senator O’Brien for finishing precisely on time. I invite the Minister to respond to the points raised by the previous three speakers.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I would genuinely like a different type of debate. I am open to all suggestions. However, shouting down other speakers and making political cases impresses nobody, either insider or outside the House. Nevertheless, I will answer the question put directly to me by Senator David Cullinane in respect of an issue that is entirely extraneous, namely, the decision as to whether the VEC site should go to Waterford or Wexford when the two were amalgamated. That decision was made objectively by the Department of Education and Skills. Wexford was chosen because its population base is larger than both Waterford city and county combined. There are double the number of schools in Wexford and the number of pupils is considerably greater—— 602 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator David Cullinane: The Minister should talk to the Leader of the House who has a different view.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Minister without interruption, please.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I am giving plain facts. I will try to bring about transparency in the manner in which we do business.

Senator David Cullinane: Like appointing judges.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Please give the Minister an opportunity to respond.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: We can shout each other down or engage in real politics and justify the existence of this House, a decision on which will be put to the people.

Senator David Cullinane: Sinn Féin does not even get speaking time.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): If the Senator continues to interrupt I will have to call in the Cathaoirleach.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: If the Senator continues to deny everyone speaking time, no one will be heard. I do not think in parochial terms. I supported the concentration of services from my county into Waterford because the development of a regional cancer centre in a regional hospital in Waterford was the best solution, although the population of Wexford is larger. I supported the development of a regional airport in Waterford. Not everything has to go to Waterford. There are rational reasons for other things and people must be reasonable. The notion that one can kick up a fuss if one’s own county does not get what it wants, is not what people want now from politics. Senator Conway asked about the National Lottery proposal.

Senator Martin Conway: The Minister knows from where I am coming on this.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Yes, I understood the Senator’s question. In regard to the lottery proposal, I was looking for innovative ways of getting new money. I would like at this point to make a general point if I may. This is important in the context of Fianna Fáil’s contribution to the House thus far. I understood Fianna Fáil embraced the objective of reaching a deficit of 8.6% of GDP next year.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: We do.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: That is immutable. The best analysis we have suggests we need to make adjustments of €3.8 billion to do that. The Government has decided that this amount should be made up as follows: €1.6 billion in additional taxes; and €2.2 billion in cuts, €1.45 billion of which will be in current and €0.75 billion will be in capital expenditure. It is a fair point if Fianna Fáil believes we should go deeper on the current side. In relation to the cuts on the current side, which will be announced on 6 December, 80% of all current expenditure is in the health, social welfare and education areas. There are no soft options there. We will get the same critique from people who will the end but will deny the means, which is a failed 603 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Deputy Brendan Howlin.] economic policy. We need to be honest with people; say it as it is and to map out the truth of what we want to do. None of these issues is hard. If Fianna Fáil genuinely believes that we should have augmented the capital programme, not cut €750 million, but should instead have taken that amount from the current side, making deeper cuts in social welfare, education and health care, that is fine but they should put that on the table so that we can——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The four-year plan.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: There is no four-year plan. We are talking now about 2012 and €750 million——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Minister, without interruption, please.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: We made €20 billion——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: ——is the reduction in 2012. Let us be honest with people. People are not fools. God knows they are carrying enough burden without being coded too. Senator O’Brien made some constructive points. I would like to respond to the two specific questions he asked. The issue of the greater Dublin drainage scheme has been raised on a number of occasions by colleagues of the Senator representing the constituencies directly affected. I am giving an undertaking now to the Senator that I will have it investigated. I previously Minister in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- ment. There is a propensity for engineers to have big schemes. They much prefer to build reservoirs than fix leaks. There is nothing sexy about fixing a hole but construction of a multi million euro dam and piping water for miles is a big event. I prefer to fix the leaks. I have given the Senator an undertaking that I will have the matter investigated. In response to the Senator’s direct and specific question in regard to whether metro north is deferred or cancelled, it is deferred. It remains a priority. It is hoped we can fix our economic finances quicker than anticipated and that international pressures will abate leaving us on a quicker path of recovery. If that happens I guarantee the Senator that metro north will be back on our agenda.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I thank the Minister.

Senator : I welcome the Minister to the House. I also welcome the €3.9 billion of cuts in the capital programme given the circumstances we are in. It is necessary that spending be reduced by €12.4 billion over the next four years. As the Minister stated, hard political choices have to be made. This Government is and will continue to make those choices, not because it wants to but because it must. The postponement of certain projects will save €750 million, which would otherwise have to be made up through a reduction in services or taxation measures. It has been agreed that as unpleasant as it is this is the least disruptive choice for our economy and society. It will have the least impact on our public services, competitiveness, jobs and ultimately our economic recovery. It is not fair that Senator O’Brien has to listen to this. I often feel sorry for him but the legacy of the Government of which his party was part is shameful.

Senator John Walsh: Senator Gilroy has a short memory. He should ask his Minister what his party did when in government in the 1980s. 604 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator John Gilroy: I placed a moratorium on my criticising Fianna Fáil. However, I must admit I am sometimes guilty of breaching it. It is difficult to be lectured by Fianna Fáil Members whose party when in government made no provision for the capital programmes it announced and to have to now listen to them say this Government’s proposals are shameful.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): A question, please.

Senator John Gilroy: Some years ago Fianna Fáil announced decentralisation, which was hailed as a stroke of genius. It now turns out to be a ball of smoke, hubris nonsense that must be confronted. Perhaps the Minister will confirm the Government’s commitment to providing funding for a substantial number of regeneration projects in urban areas, in particular Limerick, Ballymun and substantial parts of the northside of Cork city. Is flexibility built into the programmes to allow the transfer of money between programmes, where a particular programme does not appear viable and so on?

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator’s time has expired. I call Senator Quinn who has two minutes.

Senator Feargal Quinn: I welcome the Minister to the House and thank him for all the information he has given us. The Minister stated earlier that the creation of jobs remains a top priority of Government. I recall reading that the IDA stated it was worth its while spending €1 million to create one job. I know that in this regard the Government proposes spending €17 billion between 2012 and 2016. Perhaps the Minister will tell us the estimated cost per job? I was interested to hear that there is now available in the US a website through which citizens can examine Government spending, in particular on capital projects. Would the Minister con- sider the introduction of such a website here? It would probably not be that expensive but it would give citizens an opportunity of learning about what the Government is spending or planning to do.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I have launched it.

Senator Feargal Quinn: Great. I looking forward to viewing it. Prior to the election, Fine Gael announced it would establish a national recovery bank and planned to do so within a few weeks of being in office. The proposed bank was based on the French system, which appears to work well. Is that proposal dead? Perhaps the Minister will tell us the position in regard to Fine Gael’s plans for a national recovery bank?

Senator Marie Moloney: I welcome the Minister to the House. I would like to make a small point which may appear trivial to some people but has been bothering me for some time. When campaigning for Government, the Labour Party promised better road signage for tourism pur- poses. However, this proposal appears completely off the scale in Kerry where every by-road is now adorned with about five signposts. That could not be good value for money. Only one signpost is required to inform people of the name or direction of a particular by-road. Surely this money would be better spent on maintenance of the roads. There are many signs which tell us where to go over a potholed road. There are no sewerage schemes in place in many areas, one being my local townland from which effluent is flowing into the lakes and the Lough Leane catchment area. Before attacking rural Ireland in the context of septic tanks we need to take a look at our sewerage 605 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Senator Marie Moloney.] schemes in terms of the effluent flowing in our natural beauty spots in Killarney and other areas. The summer works scheme is an important scheme for schools and should not be abol- ished. Funding should be allocated to the summer works scheme. Last week a school in County Kerry with no students was being kept open by the principal sitting in the school. The school buildings are available and all that needs to be done is to refurbish them. If some schools are overcrowded it might be worth considering providing a bus service to take pupils to the empty schools that are sitting idle.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Senator Gilroy asked about the regeneration projects and I am very firmly committed to the regeneration projects. As regards flexibility, we will ensure that all the capital allocated is spent and will be moved within the budget areas if there is an incapacity or a difficulty. For example, I have indicated the very significant funding allocated to the national children’s hospital. This project is subject to planning permission and I am very optimistic that such permission will be given but it is a process over which we have no control. In reply to Senator Quinn, according to figures I have received from IDA Ireland the average cost per job created and sustained by IDA Ireland is €14,000. The estimate being thrown around by some of 9,000 jobs is based on 12 jobs created per €1 million invested but I think the reality is somewhat different from that. He asked about the website. I have created a website in my Department and I intend to have virtually all data contained there. I am inun- dated with parliamentary questions, freedom of information requests and so on. All public data on public expenditure should be in the public domain as soon as possible to the point of determination. I intend to show tenders on-line as soon as this can be physically done, the outcome of tenders, building projects, allocations to each line Department down to subhead level and the take-down of that. It is a complicated process but it has been commenced and it is my intention to provide real-time data on public expenditure, hopefully, on a world-model basis.

Senator Feargal Quinn: Can the Minister provide a likely date?

Deputy Brendan Howlin: The Department’s website will show how far advanced we are. I have also provided a facility for users to make suggestions on how it could be improved. I want to have as many services as possible on-line. To date there are more than 300 Government services accessible on-line as part of the e-government strategy. If any citizen wishes to suggest other services which are not yet on-line, we want to be able to take those ideas. It is a work in progress and we have a way to go. The Senator referred to the national recovery bank. I am not certain whether he is referring to the Fine Gael NewERA proposal in advance of the general election. The Labour Party had a parallel proposal called the strategic investment bank. I have been in discussions with the National Asset Management Agency, with the National Pensions Reserve Fund and anybody else who will talk to me about how we can structure these things. The National Pensions Reserve Fund has provided €250 million in the past fortnight as seed capital being leveraged up through international financial partners to an initial fund of €1 billion to invest largely in the commercial semi-State sector. It is my ambition to have a number of such funds available for different sectoral investors so that investment in green technology and in other areas can be facilitated with seed capital on a commercial basis. This will be rolled out and the initial fund is up and running.

606 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

NewERA has been established. The process of transferring title to some of the State com- pany assets into one holding company to better manage it is under way and legislation will be introduced in that regard in the not too distant future. Senator Moloney asked about signage. That is a matter best directed to her local county council office. I do not micro-manage to the extent that I know the expenditure of its roads allocation and I suggest local councillors be asked that question. Similarly, as regards sewerage schemes — Senator Moloney says before we attack rural Ireland — the difficulty with regard to septic tanks is that the European Union has a propensity to prevent us from poisoning ourselves and since we do not mind poisoning our ground waters through sewerage schemes, the EU has to use legal action to prevent this. If we do not stop polluting our ground waters by means of septic tanks, we will be fined. I am afraid there is no escaping that logic now and that is the reason the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government is taking the action he is. As I indicated, I am allocating €1.6 billion of the capital programme to water and sanitation schemes and this is a sizeable allocation. As regards her observations on the schools summer works scheme, I know the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, is very anxious to have a scheme and I would be very surprised if such a scheme were not in existence for next year.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cuirim céad fáilte roimh an Aire. Ceann des na ceisteanna is mó atáárdaithe ag an tuarascáil maidir le ceist na Gaeilge is ea an cinneadh faoin Choimisi- néar Teanga. Tá an Coimisinéar Teanga i bhfeidhm le seacht mbliana. Tá glactha leis go forlea- than go bhfuil sé ag déanamh sár jab. Tá neamhspléachas an róil atá aige iontach tábhachtach. Tá sé lonnaithe ins an iarthar. Tá foireann beag ag obair aige a bhéas ag obair sa Stát Seirbhís is cuma céard a tharlóidh. Mar sin, ní thuigeann pobal na Gaeilge cén loighic atá taobh thiar den chinneadh seo, Oifig an Coimisinéara Teanga a chomhnascadh.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Níl rud ar bith sa ráiteas maidir leis an chinneadh sin.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): No interrupting, please.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tá sé luaite ins an tuarascál go bhfuil an oifig le comhnas- cadh le hOifig an Ombudsman. Tá baint an-lárnach aige.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Gabh mo leithsceal, ——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: We are debating the public capital programme, not the reform programme.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Gabh mo leithscéal faoi sin. Thuig mé go raibh an cheist sin le hárdú agus go raibh cead an cheist sin a phlé. Fad is atá séárdaithe agam bhí sé chomh maith agam é a chur faoi súile an Aire.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Beidh mé ar ais láéigin eile chun an plean sin a phlé.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Beidh mise ar ais leis an gceist a chur ar an Aire.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Tá a fhios agam go mbeidh.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tá ceist eile maidir leis an seachbhóthar amuigh, outer by- pass, i gcathair na Gaillimhe. Go bhfios dom, níl airgead curtha i leataobh le haghaidh tógail an tseachbhóthair amuigh. Tá an Rialtas ag leanacht leis an bpróiseas a bhaineann le cúrsaí dlí 607 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh.] ina thaobh. An bhfuil sé i gceist leanacht ar aghaidh leis an Galway City Outer By-Pass, mar tá ceist na tráchta in nGaillimhe tarraingthe anuas agam go rí-mhinic anseo? Cén uair a bhfuil sé i gceist ag an Rialtas airgead a chur sa chiste do sin? Maidir leis an N17, an nglacann an t-Aire leis nach ndéanann sé aon chiall a bheith ag cur dolaí ar an mbóthar sin mar go bhfuil sé léirithe, ó thaobh na dolaí atá ar bhóithre eile sa tír go bhfuil siad ag díbirt daoine des na mótarbhealaí seachas á mhealladh chucu agus nach bhfuil siad ag comhlíonadh an dualgais a leagadh orthu.

Senator Jim Walsh: Ba mhaith liom aontú leis an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh maidir le hOifig an Choimisinéara Teanga, but I will not go further than that because I accept what the Minister has said. As a prelude to my question, the Minister and I have spoken privately in the past about many of these issues, including the public service. I will not say we are ad idem but there would be very little between us as regards the surgery and what needed to be done. The 5o’clock Minister will know we have had a conversation and I remind him of it. I have four questions. I am disappointed with this document but I have been a critic of the Croke Park Agreement from the time my own party introduced it last year. I think it is a smokescreen for doing very little. The savings are very minuscule. A total of €2.5 million——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: The public capital programme.

Senator Jim Walsh: I am coming to that. I want to make the point about this document——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It is a different document.

Senator Jim Walsh: I appreciate that.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: We are not debating it today.

Senator Jim Walsh: If the Minister does not interrupt me I will not interrupt him. Let us come to that agreement.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Let us be amiable in Wexford. Let us have peace, please.

Senator Jim Walsh: What is the net saving on the €2.5 million which I note covers 37,500 people who will leave the service?——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: We are not debating that document.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): This is not Wexford County Council.

Senator Jim Walsh: I refer to the changes in the decentralisation of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: On a point of order, the Senator is asking me a series of questions about a document which we are not debating here. I am happy to come back to the House to debate public service reform. The Senator has obviously prepared for a different issue. We are talking about the public capital programme. 608 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator Jim Walsh: I am aware exactly of what the Minister is doing. With respect, that is not a point of order.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: The Senator cannot question me on a debate that is not in front of us.

Senator Jim Walsh: With respect, it is not a point of order. I will ask the question another way. I have been interrupted so I must get extra time——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I will allow the Senator a further two minutes.

(Interruptions).

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): There was an interruption and in fairness——

(Interruptions).

Senator Jim Walsh: If I may ask a question about the N11, without interruption, please.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): We will move on. Is there another speaker?

Senator Jim Walsh: One second, please. In regard to the Enniscorthy by-pass——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): You are two minutes over time, I am sorry.

Senator Jim Walsh: ——which has been postponed, there is an issue of competitiveness.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Thank you.

Senator Jim Walsh: It is easier to hit capital expenditure than current expenditure. In doing that——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am sick of telling the Senator——

Senator Jim Walsh: ——the jobs issue is being undermined.

(Interruptions).

Senator David Cullinane: On a point of order——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am not going to give any extra time to any speaker. What is the point of order?

Senator David Cullinane: On a point of order, the Leader indicated in previous questions and answers sessions that when time allows Members can speak for a second time. It has happened.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): You have indicated. Take your seat. Senator Walsh is more than three minutes over time now.

Senator Jim Walsh: In fairness, I am not more than three minutes over. I was deliberately interrupted by both other Members and the Minister.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): That is one, plus. The Senator has gone beyond all—— 609 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator Jim Walsh: Can I put this to the Minister?

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am ruling the Senator out.

Senator Jim Walsh: Can I put it to the Minister?

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I did this before today and will do it again now.

Senator Jim Walsh: I put it to the Minister that reducing capital expenditure as he proposes is affecting job creation.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Your time is up. I call Senator Cummins.

Senator Jim Walsh: ——and competitiveness, concerning which future jobs will be based in the private sector——

Senator Maurice Cummins: My question relates to capital investment rather than to reform.

Senator Jim Walsh: That is a very important point.

Senator Maurice Cummins: I refer to the Thornton Hall project which has been deferred. There are major problems in Mountjoy Prison which still maintains the Dickensian practice of slopping out. There are also major difficulties in St. Patrick’s Institution. What measures in the capital programme will address those problems? In addition, there may be major problems in regard to Garda numbers. A certain number of Garda sergeant and inspector positions, in particular, must be filled. The fleet, I understand——

Senator Jim Walsh: I notice the Minister is not interrupting that point although it has nothing to do with the capital programme.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I cannot control the Minister’s flow of thoughts, Senator.

Senator Maurice Cummins: ——is in urgent need of replacement——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I hope the Chair will do that.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am sorry. Senator Cummins is making a very important point. Let him speak without interruption.

Senator Maurice Cummins: Many Garda cars have more than 300,000 miles on the clock and must be taken off the road. That could be a major problem. Are there proposals to address those problems?

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I dtosach báire, mar a dúirt mé cheana, ní bhaineann díospoireacht an lae inniu le Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga. Beidh mé lán-sásta teacht ar ais agus an report eile a phlé,más mian le Seanadóirí. The Galway outer city by-pass is not in the current programme. The issue of tolling on the N17 is something best put to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar. We have stated there are no significant new roads programmes to be commenced under this programme. We are looking at the possible prospect of leveraging additional public private 610 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers. partnership money and to that end I met last week with the vice president of the European Investment Bank, to advance the number 1 project on the roads public private partnership scheme, the N11. As Senator Hayden rightly noted, that was to have been in a previous time concluded when moneys were moved, shall we say. That is bundled with another project and I am seeking funding from the EIB, co-funded with an Irish bank, to carry out that project. If that mechanism proves successful I hope we may be able to look at other projects, not only in roads but in energy and other areas. The European Investment Bank is funding wind farming in the west, for example, and other projects. This is an area in which I am anxious to leverage any resources I can get. The first part of the funding is likely but I am not yet sure how much further we can go. Céim ar céim, maidir le rá. Senator Walsh came a little between us in our discussions. I remember being quite shocked at the scale of the downsizing he originally wanted.

Senator Jim Walsh: At the start I stated 50,000.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Minister, without interruption.

Senator Jim Walsh: The Minister will not be far away from that.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: The Senator may well prove to be not too far off the mark.

Senator Jim Walsh: That was in October 2008.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I can see that, over the period. I shall come back and debate these matters when we are debating the reform agenda. There is enough meat in that to keep us going for another debate. I mentioned the N11 and my discussions with my good Greek friend, the vice president of the European Investment Bank, last week. Senator Cummins spoke about——

Senator Jim Walsh: I also mentioned the New Ross-Enniscorthy by-pass which, as the Mini- ster knows, is on the agenda.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I answered the question but will answer again because I know Senator Walsh wants to underscore this for local consumption.

Senator Jim Walsh: No, the Minister knows I do not play that game.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I will say it again.

Senator Jim Walsh: He knows that.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Minister, without interruption.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: There are no new major road budgets in the capital programme as published. Notwithstanding that, and in response to our colleague from Galway, I hope there may be leveraging of further funding, depending on presentation of same on a public private partnership basis. The first up for testing, as it were, is the N11 and the Arklow element thereof. There is another part, too, as there are two adjoining schemes which are to run at the same time.

Senator Jim Walsh: Which one? 611 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: The Newlands Cross works. These are two separate schemes but for scale purposes they were bundled together. I should not say so at this stage because it is somewhat premature but having had discussions I am reasonably optimistic about getting those ones over the line. If we do we might then look at other projects that can be approached from a similar perspective. Thornton Hall is not going ahead within the parameters of this programme. However, I am conscious of the very fair points Senator Cummins made. We have allocated €24 million to upgrading existing prison facilities and to adding to those prisons. Senator Barrett also made a very fair point. We should explore other options. We imprison certain people now, in very recent times, whom we used not to imprison, for example, for non-payment of fines and so on. We need to be more discerning in the way we apply this policy and I know my ministerial colleague in justice, Deputy Shatter, will be looking at this. As to the allied point on St. Patrick’s Institution, the Minister for Children, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, has had long discussions with me on that issue and I am very confident we will be able to address it during the coming year.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I thank the Minister for his replies. As statements on infrastructure and capital investment have now been completed——

Senator David Cullinane: On a point of order, the Order of Business is that statements followed by questions and answers was to take place between 3.30 p.m. and 5.30 p.m. A number of Senators expressed an interest in speaking a second time. Is the Leader moving an amend- ment to the Order of Business to cut short this debate and prevent speakers from returning to this subject?

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I need clarification from the Leader on this issue.

Senator Maurice Cummins: The debate was slotted between 3.30 p.m. and 5.30 p.m. If no Member has a further question the debate can revert if previous speakers wish to return to the debate.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Is the Leader stating——

Senator Maurice Cummins: If there are speakers with other questions——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Even if they may have asked a question already?

Senator Maurice Cummins: Yes, if no other new speaker wishes to speak, they can, of course.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Is that agreed? That is fair. Senator Cullinanae has offered.

Senator Tom Sheahan: Both I and Senator Hayden made presentations and asked questions during them. Perhaps the Minister might return to them.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I would like to, if I may.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Yes. Then I shall revert to other Senators.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It is helpful to go back to some of the initial comments. Senator Sheahan spoke about access in terms of the completion of the national road network. There are certain related areas, including, I must admit, County Wexford. The EU route 1, with which 612 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers. some of us who have been around for a certain period are familiar, was originally intended to connect Larne in the North through the port of Rosslare, to the Continent and, ultimately, to Moscow. That sounds a tad Skibbereen Eagle-like, to say we were on the road to Moscow. I would settle for Larne to Rosslare. Unfortunately, that road, while largely built, is not com- pleted. We need the missing component part in Wicklow, the Enniscorthy by-pass and the last leg into the port of Rosslare to be finished. This will not be done within the timeframe of this programme. In all truth, it is unlikely it will be completed in its entirety in the timeframe of the next programme. That is something we need to work on. I am conscious of such areas, and others in County Kerry and one concerning which a vociferous argument was made in the other House, namely, the A5 in the North. The latter is an important project. I suppose it was a bit unusual for the previous Government to commit our funds to build a road that was largely to be constructed in Northern Ireland. There is a commitment to the people of the north west as well. The Derry-Donegal axis is an important one for the all-Ireland economy. At a time when we are not proceeding with road projects in general, we unfortunately do not have the £400 million we committed to give. I have given a political commitment, which has been publicly reiterated by the Taoiseach, to the project. I have met my Northern counterpart, Sammy Wilson, on a number of occasions, most recently yesterday at the North-South Ministerial Council in Armagh. I had another bilateral meeting with him last Friday as part of the general North-South Ministerial Council. I met him in Dublin before I made the announcement so that he would be clear on its impli- cations. We will explore how the road might be completed. I am glad to have had an oppor- tunity to mention this matter. It is important for the people of Donegal and the north west in general to know we have not abandoned the project. We have given an indicative figure. We will put £25 million into the budget line in 2015 and 2016. We will work on how we can assist in doing that. Senator Sheahan also spoke about the cost of job creation. I gave the indicative figures. IDA Ireland has told me that each job costs €14,000 to create. The important issue of procurement was also raised by the Senator. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, has done a great deal of work on this as part of the other work we are doing. I suggest that it might be worth the time of the Seanad, if has an opportunity to do so, to invite the Minister of State to go through the various layers of general procurement policy. The House could discuss how best practice operates and how we can comply with the European tendering regime while ensuring, as far as practicable, that——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Leader of the House is present. I am sure he will consider the matter.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It is not my place to suggest how this House should conduct its business.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Minister’s comments are welcome. It is a matter for the Leader of the House to consider.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: The House might give some thought to it. Other countries seem to be able to ensure significant projects are devised in a way that results in successful tenderers coming from their own locales. The Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, might usefully address the House on the matter. 613 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Deputy Brendan Howlin.]

I fundamentally agree with what Senator Sheahan said about public private partnerships. Senator Barrett said he is not enamoured by the notion of public private partnerships. I used to be strongly opposed to them, but I am now a sceptical supporter of them. I support them because we have no other option when we are looking for money. We need them. The value for money issue must be borne in mind. We cannot be mugged on them, to be blunt. We need to make haste slowly. If there is a clear business case, if it makes sense and if it represents value for money, it could be a way of getting capital. I am very taken by Senator Barrett’s clear and important announcement that capital is not free. There is a notion that we can go ahead with everything. There is a cost to it. Senator Barrett’s contribution is worthy of mention. Vigorous appraisal is an important part of everything we do. We started to deal with the general budgetary preparations this year in a way that no other Government has done. We set out the comprehensive review of expenditure. We have had a series of announcements. The medium-term fiscal plan was published by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan earlier this month. The capital plan we are debating now was published on 10 November last. That was followed by the reform agenda, which is a meaty programme. Some people can be dismissive of it. I hope that does not happen. I am reminded of the original point I made, which is that we are collectively in the general business of making things better.

Senator Jim Walsh: Is that the new mood music?

Deputy Brendan Howlin: No, it is not.

Senator Jim Walsh: We did not hear it for the past three years. On the contrary——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Minister without interruption, please.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I have not been in this House for three years.

Senator Jim Walsh: I am referring to the other House as well.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Does Senator Walsh want to speak again?

Senator Jim Walsh: Yes.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Okay.

Senator Jim Walsh: Will I do so now?

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Not now. The Senator can make his point later in this debate.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Senator Walsh’s intervention negates the very point I am making. We should try to be constructive. Even if the Senator had a point about what happened last year and the year before, I do not think people give a monkey’s about it. They want people to be constructive and to get us out of this crisis. We are in a perilous economic spot. We can do our own evaluation of how we got here, but that is for another day. If people have constructive ideas for mapping our way out of this crisis, we will see if we can address them. I will be open to that. I can do the ground hurling as well as anybody else. If anybody wants to be partisan and play that game, I can do that as well. 614 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Senator Jim Walsh: The Minister did it for the last three years.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I can do it for another three years if that is what the Senator wants.

Senator Jim Walsh: The Minister is calling the shots.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I do not want——

Senator Jim Walsh: He was still doing it when I heard him on local radio.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: We will do it.

Senator Jim Walsh: He is still doing it.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Minister and Senator Walsh can leave their rows in Wexford.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It is sad that this happens when we try to address things on the basis of trying to engage. That is fine. That is well and good. We will restore this economy with or without the help of those who destroyed it. We will restore it. If that is the way they want to play it——

Senator Jim Walsh: The Minister is at it again.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I will respond to Senator Barrett’s point about the need for proper evaluation. I was about to speak about the budget line. I hope we can construct the budget preparation in a different way, with a little more openness in terms of ideas and a collective debate on them. I have spoken at the economic management council about the possibility of doing this. We will see how it works. It will not work if it is partisan all the time. Perhaps it will not work. Perhaps we are not yet sufficiently politically mature to be able to do that. I do not know. We will see. I would like to speak about the value for money issue with regard to all budget lines. Senator Barrett rightly referred to the cost-benefit analysis. We are publishing details of a range of reforms that are aimed at achieving best value for money. Many of them are embedded in the programme. I propose to make presentations on the reform agenda, including the value for money issues, at both the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and the Committee of Public Accounts. I will see how we can do that. I would welcome any inputs into that. I do not want to take up too much time in case any more Senators have yet to contribute. Senator Hayden spoke about the shift in population, which is an important issue. She men- tioned the need for transparency and robust evaluation. Many people have commented on that general theme, which I strongly support. I strongly agree with what has been said about decentralisation. Perhaps we are all too quiet. Wexford was supposed to gain a decentralised Department of State. Clearly it will not now be the Aireacht in the traditional sense because that is to remain in Dublin. Objectively, the decentralisation project caused significant disruption to the totality of the public service at a time when it needed to be focused as never before. There was a notion that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government would move to Wexford and 300 people would relocate. Of course, those 300 people would not all have been staff of the Depart- ment. They would have come from a dozen Departments and agencies of State. The collective 615 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

[Deputy Brendan Howlin.] memory and the operational capacity were not only lost but sundered for a while. Parts of Departments have been realigned as part of the restructuring of Departments. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is a brand new Department. There are bits of Departments all over the shop. Many of the so-called “advance parties” are in isolation. This huge issue needs to be solved. We have made determinations. We hope that will be done. I assure Senator Quinn that I am determined to put as much data on procurement and expenditure as possible on the website of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I would welcome any observations he might have in that regard.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I thank the Minister. Senator Cullinane has two minutes.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I hope I have not left anything out.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): There are a few more questions to come.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: If I have, perhaps I can be reminded of the issues in question.

Senator David Cullinane: It is possible to be constructive while providing opposition and opposing what the Government is saying.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I remind the Senator of the need to ask questions.

Senator David Cullinane: That is what some Members of this House have done. I refer the Minister to Sinn Féin’s pre-budget submission, which refers to a stimulus plan of €7 billion over three years. It has been supported by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, which is calling for something similar. Sinn Féin wants an additional 150 State-run crèches to be established and 100 schools to be built, which would cost €300 million.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Is that a question?

Senator David Cullinane: We are calling for the refurbishment of 75——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Questions have to be asked at this time.

Senator David Cullinane: I am putting questions.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator has made a series of statements.

Senator David Cullinane: I am asking the Minister whether he agrees that investment is what is most needed by the domestic economy in this country. We have seen in the past that the policy of taking money out of the economy by cancelling capital projects and taking money from the pockets of low-paid workers clearly does not work. If there is €5.3 billion in the National Pensions Reserve Fund, it should be invested in this State and in people to get plum- bers, architects, builders, plasterers and bricklayers back to work. This is not just coming from my party. As I said, last night in Waterford — I should not mention Waterford in case I might upset the Minister again — I attended the Irish Congress of Trade Unions regional launch of its pre-budget proposals. It also calls for a stimulus and investment package, as do many economists. I accept the Government must pick up the pieces of what was left by the previous Govern- ment but what we need most is investment. Even at the end of the lifetime of this Government 616 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers. and even if all its policies are realised, and I do not believe they will be, the Minister for Finance has stated that there will still be up to 370,000 people out of work. That is clearly unacceptable to my party, to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and to many other people.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Has the Senator a question for the Minister?

Senator David Cullinane: Does the Minister support what is in the pre-budget submissions of Sinn Féin and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions?

Senator Martin Conway: I agree with the Minister’s sentiments on decentralisation. This is a country in which one is only four or five hours away from anywhere. Therefore, decentralis- ation, in particular the last tranche of it, was flawed. I spoke to the Minister privately about the swimming pool project announced a month or six weeks ago. It was impractical for many counties to take advantage of the funding. I did not see anything specific in the capital programme in regard to swimming pools for 2012 but I know from speaking to the Minister that the Government is favourably disposed to looking at this. It would be a way of sustaining employment, particularly in rural areas. In terms of the e-tendering process for projects worth more than €50,000, is there any scope to raise that figure to €250,000 before one must go through the e-tendering process? I hate to shout about the green jersey but this is a time of crisis and if we are to try to secure employment and if Irish companies are to have any opportunity, e-tendering is probably counterproductive from our point of view. I realise we have certain EU obligations but is there any scope to up the figure substantially?

Senator Jim Walsh: I noticed I was stopped when talking about decentralisation but the Minister was not stopped when he replied.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): This is question time, so I ask the Senator to ask questions.

Senator Jim Walsh: I agree with the Minister in regard to procurement. There is a need for us to jobs proof everything decided across all policy areas because jobs should be the number 2 issue. The number 1 issue, which will best assist jobs, is restoring consumer confidence. The partisan politics, in particular in the Dáil, which occurred over the past three years, were an absolute shame. It did not occur in other countries, such as Sweden and Portugal, which had issues in the 1990s and now. I agree with what the Minister said but it rings a bit hollow coming from those who, over the past three years, did not put the national interest ahead of their own self-interest and party interest. I refer to the macro issue of cutting capital expenditure by €750 million. It is much easier to do that than to cut current expenditure. The worst may still be to come. I refer to what is happening in the eurozone. Will it survive? That is highly questionable. Will the European Union survive? It probably will. What will happen in China? I refer to the US where they cannot reach agreement on budget figures, again for partisan political reasons. It means we are very exposed as an open economy dependent on our exports. We have an export-driven econ- omy. If that is dented and unless we get consumer growth, which will be very difficult to achieve, we face dire difficulties. The one thing capital expenditure does is it creates jobs in the short term but above all, it improves our competitiveness in the medium term. That argu- ment and debate needs to take place. The structural weaknesses mentioned—— 617 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator is over time. I call the Minister to reply.

Senator Jim Walsh: Let me finish on this.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): We are finishing at 5.30 p.m.

Senator Jim Walsh: The Minister mentioned that health, education and social welfare account for 80% of the budget.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The time is up. We are trying to facilitate other people.

Senator Jim Walsh: Public pay, pensions and social welfare also account for 80%.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I call Senator Coghlan to ask a brief question.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I agree totally with the Minister on decentralisation. Where there is an already decentralised office — there are a number of them — and a large amount of unutil- ised office space, is there any way the Minister can encourage his colleagues to ensure staff who are scattered elsewhere in the same town or region move to the one place?

Senator Feargal Quinn: I am a strong advocate for the agri-food sector. The Minister talked about it being one of the areas which has been very resilient. Some €800 million has been allocated for the next five years. I discovered the figure this year was €269 million. If we are going to reduce it to that, it is a reduction of 37%. This is the very area in which we should invest. Have those sums been done correctly?

Senator John Gilroy: Mental health is an area in which I have a particular interest as I have worked in the area for many years. I welcome the proposal to rebuild the Central Mental Hospital. I have one or two concerns in regard to the allocation of funding to A Vision for Change. Decisions made in other policy areas may well negate the best of intentions here. Do the Minister and his Department intend to actively pursue contradictory objectives in other Departments’ areas with a view to achieving the objectives in one area?

Deputy Brendan Howlin: In regard to the general point made by Senator Cullinane, which was also touched on by Senator Walsh, restoring public finances is the best aid to growth. That is what the OECD has told us——

Senator David Cullinane: Current expenditure——

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Please——

(Interruptions).

Senator Maurice Cummins: There are interruptions the whole time.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I was just going to——

Senator Jim Walsh: I said to the Minister——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I ask the Minister to conclude. He only has two minutes. 618 Infrastructure and Capital Investment: 22 November 2011. Statements, Questions and Answers.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: It is like a bad local authority.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I ask the Minister to conclude.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Restoring the public finances is the best way to aid growth, as has been said by the OECD, the World Economic Forum and any other economic advices we have. We must restore economic fortunes. We are borrowing €18 billion this year. Some €15 billion is for day-to-day expenses and €3 billion is for the banks. We are paying our gardaí, teachers, nurses and ourselves from that borrowed money and there is only one source for it, which is the troika. Nobody else will give us money.

Senator Jim Walsh: We are paying ourselves too much, as the Minister knows.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Please allow me to speak.

(Interruptions).

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Please allow the Minister to speak.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: Does Senator Walsh allow anyone to speak other than himself?

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The time is up and the Minister must reply.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: If we are to restore our economic fortunes, we need to cut our cloth according to our measure. That means we must reduce that €15 billion we are borrowing to a normal 3% of GDP. That is our target by 2015. That is what we are bound to do under the stability pact up to which we have signed and what this Government is going to do. To do that, we will have to cut expenditure. We have said that this year we will cut capital expenditure by €750 million and current expenditure by €1.45 billion, which is twice as much. The notion that Senator Walsh——

Senator Jim Walsh: That is only €5 billion. It is not proportionate. Capital expenditure is €5 billion and current expenditure is €48 billion.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): This question and answer procedure cannot work unless the Minister is given the chance to reply.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I will not come back to be shouted down.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am trying to do my best.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: I will finish. I had hoped to have had constructive engagement in this Chamber because it really has——

Senator Jim Walsh: Honest engagement——

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Senator Walsh, please.

Deputy Brendan Howlin: This Chamber has a job of work to do because a decision will be made on its future next year. It really must work and people should not be shouted down like in a poor local authority.

Senator Jim Walsh: The Minister started it. 619 Telecommunications 22 November 2011. Services

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I am sorry Minister but the time is up. When is it proposed to sit again?

Senator Maurice Cummins: Ar leath uair tar éis a deich maidin amárach.

Adjournment Matter

————

Telecommunications Services Senator Deirdre Clune: I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to raise the matter of Ireland availing of the opportunity to provide tier 1 international connectivity to the south west by ensuring a connection is made to the Hibernia Atlantic Express cable being laid from the US to the UK and on into Europe. Ireland was not initially involved but there is an opportunity to provide a link which would give international connectivity to the Atlantic corridor region and allow it to become a serious location for data centres. Technology actions such as this, which are needed to support the development of a smart economy, were identified in a 2009 Government report, the Knowledge Society Strategy. It stated:

Direct access to an international IP backbone is needed in the southern part of Ireland akin to the Kelvin project in the North. The Government should first assess the possibility of interconnection to an existing submarine cable at the nearest point.

Reduced latency on international IP links would make Ireland a more attractive location for data centres and associated foreign direct investment. Such investment would capitalise on and complement the Kelvin project in the North. This would also make it attractive and feasible to locate data centres outside Dublin.

Although we need a strong centre around the capital, this would provide opportunities for areas outside Dublin. Cork has received some foreign direct investment, but this type of con- nectivity is needed if we are to develop cloud computing and other such data centres in the area. Initially, the Hibernia Atlantic Express consortium was to provide the link but then the issue came up that the Government might pay for it. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, has addressed this matter in the Dáil and met with Hiber- nia Atlantic Express on it. He was concerned about rules governing state aid and the costs involved. Other high level meetings have been held between the Minister and the consortium along with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, and Cork Chamber of Commerce. While I was not privy to these high level meetings, I would hope some way could be found to ensure connectivity to this tier 1 cable. While it is a private consortium, it is providing exactly what is needed in the region. We will never get this type of connectivity at this cost if the State were to do it itself. It provides an ideal opportunity to get connectivity for the south west. The follow-on benefits of such a move in Cork and the south west have been well-documented. It is important whatever consultations have been held are in the public arena and if the issue of costs and state aid have been cir- cumvented.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Fergus O’Dowd): I thank Senator Clune for raising the important matter of inter- national communications connectivity. I am also glad to have the opportunity to highlight the 620 Telecommunications 22 November 2011. Services factors that must be considered by the Government before any decisions to intervene in com- mercial markets can be taken. I am well aware of the Hibernia Atlantic Express project and welcome any investment such as this project that would lead to improved international connectivity. There have been signifi- cant investments by various market players in recent years, all of which have added to Ireland’s international connectivity capacity. The electronic communications market is, and has been since its liberalisation, a commercial competitive market. Accordingly, the State can only intervene in the market in limited circum- stances, for example, where the market is failing to provide services. In such circumstances, the State intervention would only take place following state aid approval from the European Commission and a public tender procurement process. In addition, any such assistance would have to demonstrate that value for money would occur. Accordingly, proposed projects must meet the tests of capital appraisal. Affordability is another key consideration, particularly in the current acutely difficult fiscal climate. Nonetheless, I recognise the importance of electronic communications infrastructure to national and regional economic development. Cork city has a significant presence of electronic communications infrastructure. There are plans to roll out additional backhaul infrastructure which would help in making Cork even more competitive in the provision of backhaul services. A direct connection into Cork would enhance the region’s attractiveness for FDI, foreign direct investment. The international connectivity market is, however, a commercial market. Any proposed intervention would have to avoid distorting the market and avoid undermining investments made by other market players. It would be unfair to intervene in the market in a manner that would cut across those who have invested private funding in the building of international connectivity networks. While I welcome additional international connectivity to the island from other countries, no deficiency in connectivity has been brought to my Department’s attention. The existing network owners have significant capacity available while other consortia are in the process of planning transatlantic connectivity with connections to Ireland. The next generation broadband task force, chaired by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, and of which I am a member, is considering how best to facilitate the roll-out of next generation broadband across Ireland. While several issues are being considered and progressed, the matter of international connectivity is not one which is a cause for concern. While I would be glad to see direct international connectivity coming into Cork, my Depart- ment cannot undermine investments already made or other possible private sector investment by an intervention in this commercial market. If in the future a decision is taken to intervene in the market, the Department will abide by the various laws and rules governing state aid. The Department will also be required to ensure any intervention warrants the Exchequer funding required and the procurement process is open to any party that might have an interest. I thank Senator Clune for raising this important topic and I am glad to have had the oppor- tunity to clarify the important matters raised.

Senator Deirdre Clune: The Minister of State claimed there is no deficiency in connectivity in the area. However, a 2009 Forfás report on competitiveness in the south west stated: 621 The 22 November 2011. Adjournment

[Senator Deirdre Clune.]

. . . quality and cost of broadband services remains a significant issue. In particular, inter- national backhaul from Cork city and other large urban centres in the region including the Tralee-Killarney hub is at least 25% more expensive than from Dublin or comparable UK regional cities...

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I am glad Senator Clune has brought this to my attention. I will point this out to the Department. It is critical that such facts of which the Department may not be aware are brought to its attention.

The Seanad adjourned at 5.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 23 November 2011.

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