This Is a Complete Transcript of the Oral History Interview with Merrill Dunlop (CN50, T2) for the Billy Graham Center Archives

This is a complete transcript of the oral history interview with Merrill Dunlop (CN50, T2) for the Billy Graham Center Archives. No spoken words which were recorded are omitted. In a very few cases, the transcribers could not understand what was said, in which case “[unclear]” or “[?] were inserted. Also, grunts, verbal hesitations such as “ah” or “um” were usually omitted. Readers of this transcript should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and even rule than written English.

. . . Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence of the speaker.

. . . . Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.

( ) Word in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.

[ ] Words in brackets are comments made by the transcriber.

This transcript was created by Robert Shuster in July, 1989.

Please note: This oral history interview expresses the personal memories and opinions of the interviewee and does not necessarily represent the views or policies of the Billy Graham Center Archives or Wheaton College.

Collection 50, Tape 2. Oral history interview with Merrill Dunlop by Robert Shuster on June 1, 1979.

SHUSTER: This is an interview...this is an interview for the Archives of the Billy Graham Center of Mr. Merrill Dunlop. The interview was conducted by archivist Robert Shuster at Mr. Dunlop's home at 712 Fairoaks Street in Oak Park on June 1 at 9:30 am.

DUNLOP: Well, I try to be respectful. That's why I put a coat on [laughs.. I didn't have one on before.

SHUSTER: I....

DUNLOP: Either I should put one on or make you take yours off, make yourself....

SHUSTER: Well, whichever is more comfortable.

DUNLOP: Make you feel at home anyway.

SHUSTER: Well, I do. I was...thought we might start with a brief sketch of Mr. A. M. Johnson, who I understand was a close friend of Paul Rader's?

DUNLOP: It could be somewhat brief sketch, I guess. Now is this set up the way it's supposed to be? [ Referring to audio recording.]

SHUSTER: Yes.

DUNLOP: Is this close enough to me?

SHUSTER: Yes, it's fine.

DUNLOP: I speak just this way?

SHUSTER: Yeah. Yeah, it’s fine.

DUNLOP: Seems strange, because usually I expect a microphone to be a lot closer than that.

[Break in recording.]

SHUSTER: So, Mr. A. M. Johnson was a president of an insurance company?

DUNLOP: Yes, Mr. A. M. Johnson headed the National Life Insurance Company for many years as his...its president. And of course that was the big insurance company that went down the drain in that terrific crash that happened back there in the late days just before the Tabernacle went under from bankruptcy. Mr. A. M. Johnson had been a very close friend of Paul Rader for many years. In fact, he was the one who personally paid Paul Rader's salary for several years so that Paul Rader

SHUSTER: What was her first name?

DUNLOP: [Pauses] Oh. [Pauses.] Give me a moment to think on that. [Pauses.] Esca...escapes me now and I should know it but I just can't think of it for the moment, but if I think of it, I'll let you know.

SHUSTER: What does the A. M. stand for in A. M. Johnson.

DUNLOP: Albert, Albert M. Johnson was his name. She was a...she was a very lovely little lady. Short and sort of...slightly buxom, but always with a happy way of meeting people and a very, very knowledgeable Bible teacher.

SHUSTER: Did...did he support other evangelical...or other evangelists in Chicago or in the country?

DUNLOP: I do know...

SHUSTER: Or organizations?

DUNLOP: …I do know this, he was very much interested in helping the Wycliffe Translators way back. Because he was a good friend of the...of the founder of that Wyc...Wycliffe Translators which was Cameron Townsend. And I know that he helped Mr. Townsend and I think he had provision for some of his...his funds to go to Wycliffe at the...at the...the eventuality of his passing, you see. And I assume that that's what happened. And he, as I said, had taken Paul Rader's personal support. And he attended the services himself. I knew him personally. He was a very tall, slender man, white haired and I used to think of him as elderly but I can't remember just how old he was back at that time. I...I suppose he was in his seventies. But I spent some time with him out in Death Valley. He had the...he had the Death Valley castle. He was a man of great wealth and built the Death Valley Castle, which is called Scotty's Castle. And he was a great friend of Scotty. Have you heard of Scotty?

SHUSTER: I haven't heard of Scotty. I've heard of Death Valley Castle.

DUNLOP: Scotty was the not only legendary character but the actual character around whom hundreds of legends had come. That he was the man who had discovered a secret gold mine and had great wealth and he built this beautiful [pauses] palace, you might call it, mansion out in the heart of Death Valley there and had a swimming pool and...and all kinds of extravaganzas. And A. M. Johnson of course was frequently there and actually what happened was A. M. Johnson was the moneyed man behind Scotty. And Scotty had at one time was supposed to have saved A. M. Johnson's life and there was a real mutual understanding and appreciation of each other. And A. M. Johnson financed Scotty in many of these things. But he just had a great joy out of the legends that were just constantly being manufactured by the news media and constantly the reporters were there, always trying to find out stories about Death Valley Scotty. So I was out there, spend three days with Mr. A. M. Johnson. My wife was with me one time. We had a lovely time. We got to know Mr. A. M. Johnson quite well. His wife was not.... Oh. Bessie.

SHUSTER: Bessie.

DUNLOP: Her name was Bessie. He...he kept us up until all...wee hours of the morning and sitting out under those...on the porches there in that Death Valley Castle, looking up at the sky and the stars. He could just spin yarns and tell us all kinds of things. Looked as if you could just reach up and touch those stars. And Scotty would be there, he would come. And he would spin his tales. He was a most colorful character. And I took their pictures together one time. But I remember Mr. Johnson said when he was speaking of the hours that he and...he was keeping my wife and me and Paul Rader's daughter up, he said, "If Bessie were here, I wouldn't be doing this" [laughs]. So her name came back to me, you see. Am I off the track now, Bob, or...?

SHUSTER: Well, no, I wanted to ask you also.... We have came across in a book that A. M. Johnson was a supporter and backer of Aimee Semple McPherson. Did you know anything of that connection or...?

DUNLOP: A connection between A. M. Johnson and Aimee Semple McPherson.

SHUSTER: I know that Paul Rader also spoke once or twice in...

DUNLOP: Paul Rader spent three months there...

SHUSTER: ...Angelus Temple.

DUNLOP: ...preaching in Angelus Temple. I don't know about any possible connection between A. M. Johnson and Aimee Semple McPherson. I met and knew Mrs. McPherson. In fact, I arranged some of her songs for her. But I don't know of any connection that way. Paul Rader preached about three months one time when...when she was on one of her world trips and so she asked if...if he could come and preach and he did. He...he left the Chicago Gospel Tabernacle and spent those three months out in Los Angeles and the crowds were just absolutely wall to wall people all the time. They could hardly get into the place. Had a great three months there.

SHUSTER: What...what impressions do you have of Mrs. McPherson?

DUNLOP: Any contacts I've had with her were that she was a very wonderful person. I think she was a sincere Christian and I was tremendously impressed by her preaching. I heard her a few times. I'm not one who heard her constantly, because I am not one who was there during Paul Rader's three months at all. But I've heard her at Angelus Temple and different places and when I contacted her in person, she was always most gracious to me and I felt that her preaching was just tremendous. Of course, she did have flare. She liked some of those flares. She always came down from the second balcony with a big bouquet of roses and spotlights on her and all that. She came down the steps all the way to the platform and it was quite something. She liked those things. She was a...very feminine in her manners, in.... Quite a beautiful woman. And she had a magnificent voice for preaching. One Sunday morning service, when she had a Communion service, I never will (neither will my wife) ever forget that magnificent service. Since you are asking me about her. She had a large bunch of grapes made. I say grapes, they looked like grapes from where we sat. But actually it was a big bunch of California plums she had put together by some of her students in the art department. And she had it fixed up like a...like a big bouquet...bunch of grapes. And she had a number of points in her message when she was talking about the sacrifice of Christ and what Christ did in this aspect and what he did in that aspect. And as she made each point, she reached and up took one of those grapes, so-called grapes, out of that...and squeezed it into sa container which was a little silver bucket-like thing with a spigot on it. And she squeezed that juice in that. And then she'd take her next point. And she then finally reached up and emphasized that point by squeezing another one into that bucket. And when it was all done and the message was complete, she was ready to serve the communion to the congregation. She took the first cup and opened that spigot and filled it up and said, "This is the cup...." I mean it was such a tremendous service. Her prayer and that whole service is something we will never forget. So that in spite of the fact that so many things were said against her and criticisms aimed at her and various things she did, I could never.... I...I think I've learned one think. I hope I've learned it. Some preacher said one time, "Be careful. Never put hands, so to speak, on a servant of God. It is a dangerous thing to do.” And I feel sorry for those who are doing that very thing.

SHUSTER: How did her preaching style compare with Paul Rader's?

DUNLOP: I don't know just know how to answer that. Her voice was a beautifully modulated voice, with plenty of power. Let's see, that was back in the 19.... That was the late thirties. Were we...? Yes, we were using microphones for public address systems then, I think. But I don't think she had any problem along that line because Angelus Temple was so constructed that it had two balconies and the big main floor and she was easily heard. Her style was, as Paul Rader's, full of illustrations which made her messages just right...come right down to where you lived. And you just felt that she was ministering to you and preaching to you. At least, that was my impression. Of course, Paul Rader was a man with a tremendous built-in loud speaker system. He had a voice that was just easily heard anywhere. But he had style all of his own.

SHUSTER: I came across an article in the Dictionary of American Biography saying that he had founded temples...tabernacles, rather, in Pasadena, Elgin, Minneapolis, Fort Wayne, Los Angeles. Did you have any information on those other tabernacles?

DUNLOP: Well, yes. I think after...

SHUSTER: Was this after he had left Chicago?

DUNLOP: ...after Paul Rader had been in Los Angeles for all that time, those three months, there was such a.... And I guess it was within a couple of years after that. There was such a clamor for him to return and have other meetings there. And he was hesitant about doing that. But finally there was a...there was a...a church, it was a tabernacle that was vacated and was available on Lake Street. So he took that over and decided to speak there occasionally. So he did. And he had Dr. W. B. Hogg, he had A. P. Gouphy [sp?], had some of those sort of manning it for him or pastoring it for him and then he himself spoke some. But I think perhaps there was some criticism that he had done that because of the fact that he had formerly been at Angelus Temple. However, the Tabernacle was...didn't last too long. I mean he didn't carry it on too much...too long. I've forgotten how long.

SHUSTER: So the....

DUNLOP: Then he had.... Well, these other tabernacles that he...he had, were supposed to have owned. Now, there was a...there was a runaway relative of Paul Rader's, Paul Rader's brother's grandson, I think was the way it worked out, was sort of a renegade and he has...he had one movement in the sunshine where the media came to him and he was able to spout off all of his vengeance against whatever it was that he objected to and so he made the statement and it was printed in some of the newspapers across the country that Paul Rader had personally owned a string of about twenty tabernacles, which was never true, was never true at all. Paul Rader had an affiliation with tabernacles that...people who had their own tabernacles and decided to come in with Paul Rader and to make it a fellowship, which is an entirely different thing, you see.

SHUSTER: Well, the article I had seen was from the Dictionary of American Biography printed about 1940. So this was just shortly....

DUNLOP: Well, there was that fellowship of tabernacles, no question about it. But as far as ownership was concerned.... I was wondering whether you referred to this particular article that I'm talking about.

SHUSTER: No not that one, although I had seen the information on it. I can't remember his name.

DUNLOP: I've forgotten his...Datsun Rader was his name.

SHUSTER: Datsun, yes. So....

DUNLOP: A shameful thing and a very regrettable thing. But he had his...his facts all mixed up. You see when he...when he.... He's speaking now as an adult but what...where was he back in Paul Rader's time. He was...he hadn't even been heard of then, you see. And now here come this boy Datsun, a young fellow. He has all the answers and can spout off these recrimination against Paul Rader, who he probably never met or ever saw and I mean, it is just too bad.

SHUSTER: So, but then these tabernacles were basically ones that just affiliated with the Chicago

Gospel Tabernacle.

DUNLOP: That's right, yes. Oh, I remember they were in Elgin and Fort Wayne and....

SHUSTER: Pasadena?

DUNLOP: Well, yes that Pasadena was the one I spoke of. Oh, Milwaukee.

SHUSTER: Milwaukee, I got that. They had listed six: Pasadena, LA, Milwaukee, Minneapolis...

DUNLOP: Yes, Minneapolis. Well, of course, that was his brother's tabernacle...

SHUSTER: ...Elgin and Fort Wayne.

DUNLOP: Luke Rader's taber.... That's right. And Paul Rader actually after he left the Chicago Gospel Tabernacle, he went to the Fort Wayne Temple and became pastor there for about two years.

SHUSTER: Now, this speaking stint that he had at Angelus Tabernacle was after he had left Chicago Gospel...?

DUNLOP: Say that again please.

SHUSTER: The speaking stint that he had at Angelus Temple, three months stint, three month time period.

DUNLOP: Three months at Angelus Temple, yes.

SHUSTER: That was after he left Chicago Gospel Tabernacle?

DUNLOP: No.

SHUSTER: That was during the same time?

DUNLOP: No, that was long before that.

SHUSTER: Oh, in the.... Do you remember when?

DUNLOP: Well, no I can't pinpoint the date right.... Must have been [pauses].... I would think it must have been in the thirties. It would have to be in the early thirties. See, Paul Rader died in 38. It must have been in [pauses], no, must have been before that. Must have been in the late twenties. [Pauses.]

SHUSTER: So he was....

DUNLOP: Just a...just a moment now. Wait a moment. Now, I was married in the Chicago Gospel Tabernacle in September 1932 and.... No, my wife and I were out there together when we heard Aimee Semple McPherson preach. That was after '32, so that was, must have been about 1934. Paul Rader must have preached for her, I think it must have been 1930, somewhere right around in there.

SHUSTER: 1930.

DUNLOP: I think it was around in there.

SHUSTER: So that was before, then, you were married.

DUNLOP: Yes.

SHUSTER: Okay, well, that's all the questions I had about Paul Rader. [Pauses.] Oh, there was one thing. We...in another interview we heard that he preached to...during World War I he had gone to France to preach to the American soldiers there?

DUNLOP: He had gone to France to preach to the American soldiers?

SHUSTER: Yeah.

DUNLOP: During World War, what, one?

SHUSTER: One.

DUNLOP: Well, this is something I have.... It sounds strange to me. I hadn't heard that before. So, I can't be of any help on that.

SHUSTER: Okay. How did you begin....

DUNLOP: Just a moment, though. World War I. What were the dates of World War I? 1914 to 1918, weren't they.

SHUSTER: Yeah, and for the US it was 1917...

DUNLOP: Well....

SHUSTER: ...to 1918.

DUNLOP: Yes, but Paul Rader was pastor of the Moody Church then. He became pastor of the Moody Church in 1914. And he was pastor of the Moody church for seven years, until 1921. I have never heard of his going overseas during the war to minister to the soldiers in France and I doubt...somehow I doubt that that was true. I can't be one hundred percent sure.

SHUSTER: Oh, how did your association with Youth for Christ begin?

DUNLOP: Well, I was at the Chicago Gospel Tabernacle as a young man and I was associated at that time with Reverend Clarence Erickson, who followed Paul Rader as pastor and in 19...must have been about 1945, forty-four or forty-five, Torrey Johnson, Dr. Torrey Johnson phoned me one day. And he was of course the pastor of Midwest Bible Church and there was always very good fellowship between Torrey Johnson and Chicago Gospel Tabernacle, because Dr. Torrey Johnson has mentioned to me a number of times, in fact I even heard him say it publicly at Bibletown this past year when I was done there. He said, one day when he was talking to the congregation, he said, " I spent my honeymoon at Chicago Gospel Tabernacle.” He said, "My wife and I came there and just stayed there for...to hear Paul Rader.” He said, "I was just amazed and thrilled and blessed and helped by Paul Rader.” And he said, "I spent my...not only my there, he so appealed to me with the work that he was doing, he just about emptied my pockets and I gave just about everything I had.” And he was a man who really highly esteemed Paul Rader. Still does, his memory. Well, Dr. Johnson called me.... Of course, this was many years after that incident, but he was established as pastor of Midwest Bible Church and he phoned me one day and asked whether I would have lunch with him.

SHUSTER: This was about 1944?

DUNLOP: Must have been about 1944, I think. It seems to that about when Youth for Christ began. And he came...he brought with him Doug Fischer, who was his director of music. And of course I have known Doug Fischer...I had known Doug Fischer for a long.... He was a young man. We were somewhat the same age, or he was a little younger than I. So he...the three of us met for lunch and he told me what he in mind concerning Youth for Christ and he wanted to know if I would come in with him. And that the first meeting was planned for...for Orchestra Hall on a Saturday night. I can't remember the date. So we went over the whole thing pretty carefully. He sketched out what he would like to have me do. And Doug and I were to be in the music and so we were and it worked out this way. We had some delightful, wonderful fellowship in Youth for Christ days, there.

SHUSTER: What were the...what was the atmosphere like at the big rallies?

DUNLOP: Well, Orchestra Hall was filled up. I think this movement of Youth for Christ was surely of the Lord's leading. Men just can't program things on that basis. It takes the blessing of God upon it, in additional to all that men can do to produce what was produced then. Because it was just at that time the (what was...) World War II was on and there was spirit of...of the war spirit of course in the nation itself was something that had...had...was different than what we have now. We were all aware of that and of course in the big rallies, they used to sing songs that had to do with the boys in the service overseas. "God bless our boys." And so forth. And, not that had so much to do with the Youth for Christ rallies itself, but it was a new thing in Chicago. I don't think we had had quite the sense of fellowship amongst churches that Youth for Christ was able to produce. There had been what was called the FYPF for many years, which was called the Fundamental Young People's Fellowship and that was a movement which was very fine and young people’s groups from many of the Chicago churches used to meet and have singsperations and we

SHUSTER: Did the same people who would later lead Youth for Christ also...?

DUNLOP: Well, I think many of them were, yes. But I think that the entity was different and quite...in many ways. Because Dr. Torrey Johnson was the man who pulled this thing together and started the Chicagoland Youth for Christ. And associated with him were Bob Cook and Doug Fischer, as I mentioned, was there in music along with me and he had Beverly Shea then as singer and we used to have a girl by the of Rose Arzommmian who was quite fine singer. She had been a contest winner...winner in the Chicago Tribune festival deals and a very fine Christian girl. So all that group was together and it just seemed the crowds began to come. Now the very first preacher for that opening Youth for Christ deal in Orches...Orchestra Hall, Chicago was Billy Graham and I remember the suspense that we all had, wondering how many people might go up for first meeting in Orchestra Hall. We were praying about it and there was much prayer that went on preceding that opening rally and we arrived at Orchestra Hall that night, we were just simply happily stunned, if I could put it that way. Orchestra Hall, the main floor and that first big balcony section was just filled. I don't think we used the peanut gallery at that the top. But that was a tremendous crowd. And the opening rally was just a great one. Everything had been perfectly timed and Torrey Johnson had presented Billy Graham for the message and Billy gave an invitation. he was not known then, you know, Billy Graham. He was just a young preacher. But I mean he had such fire and such exuberance and fidelity to the preaching of the word of God that I mean it was just electrifying. He gave an invitation. There were many, many people saved that night. From that rally on, those...Orchestra Hall filled up to the top until finally we had to have two services on a Saturday night.

SHUSTER: You had them every Saturday night, then.

DUNLOP: On Saturday nights. An early service and the late service. I mean, just that way. And of course music was a great feature at Youth for Christ. We had all kinds of musical features and music groups. We used the organ and concert grand pianos. We had a band. We had a big band that was developed by Elmer Whithof [sp?]. We had about ninety pieces in that band. And some of the businessmen in Chicago helped with the financing of the whole thing, you see, because there was a rental for Orchestra Hall, but they had many, many expenses for publicity and printing and some of the businessmen dug down and I think two or three helped to buy uniforms for the band and we had big choral groups and it was just a great, great series.

SHUSTER: Who were some of the men who helped finance it?

DUNLOP: Oh, for goodness sakes, now you're asking me to...

SHUSTER: I remember Andrew Wyzenbeek and his....

DUNLOP: ...try to.... Well, I don't....

SHUSTER: He said that he once supplied the rental for Orchestra Hall.

DUNLOP: Andy Wyzenbeek? Well, its very possible. He's a gracious man. I know him. I talked to him last evening on the phone. He could very well do it and I know there were many other men. I can't venture into trying to think who they were now but a man who was one of the big wheels in Sears Roebuck and different people like that. Well...well known people.

SHUSTER: What were some of the other elements of the service besides the sermon and the music?

DUNLOP: Well, we had plenty of youth features, always. There were...these...these services were not...they were not consid...called church services at all.

SHUSTER: Is that why...is that because it might keep people away?

DUNLOP: Well, I'll tell you, if you all it a...yes. If you call it a church service, immediately you get the idea that its largely an adult thing. These...this was Youth for Christ and it was set up as youth rally and they did things there that you probably would not do in a church service. Some...some people might even had criticized. I think there were some criticisms of some the music, maybe, and some of the.... I couldn't feel any reason to criticize at all, although I was long in church work too. But I felt it was a successful thing. In fact, two men, Dr. Torrey Johnson and Bob Cook, being at the top there, they were two very very talented men, very fine speakers for one thing. Bob Cook, as you may...probably know is on the radio today and has a wide range of radio broadcasts across the country. But he was then a very capable youth director and a youth man and he conducted many of the features.

SHUSTER: What kind of features were they?

DUNLOP: Well, they would make awards to different...different Youth for Christ groups that came from different parts of the city. They had contests of...talent contests and they would feature certain ones who had been selected as...as...as the ones who had won certain contests. And in fact every Saturday night for a while I remember I had to give auditions to young people who wanted to be heard vocally or instrumentally and Doug Fischer did the same thing. We were constantly putting the spotlight on the best we could find in music, you see. We'd have quartets and ensemble groups and youth choirs and so forth. Talented young instrumentalists, cornetists. Of course our band provided great music. Let me see, I was just going to say something else. [Pauses.] We had an outstanding speaker each week, not necessarily a youth himself, but speakers who were often men of great renown. And we had speakers from all over the country who would be coming through. And I remember there was a number of times when some of these preachers really felt as though they had been very definitely cheated by Youth for Christ. And they had come expecting to preach a full length sermon when what was wanted was about fifteen, eighteen minutes, you see, which would be a direct scriptural presentation, a gospel appeal and an invitation. Not...not a long three point sermon, as a pastor might preach on Sunday morning. Some of these pastors really heavily criticized because when they saw the program, they were programed for maybe eighteen minutes of message, beginning at, I'd say, 8:42 and going to 9:05 or something like that and highly resented

SHUSTER: What about the...did you get coverage in the secular press of the meetings?

DUNLOP: Yes, I think so. I can't remember exac...how much. I know we had much we had some of the big rallies, we had the big Soldier Field rallies on two or three occasions, where Dr...Dr. Fuller was the preacher one time and Percy Crawford was the preacher another time. That's Soldier Field. And we had the Chicago Stadium I think twice. Way back there, I mean that was a tremendous big step, to get that first rally going in the Chicago Stadium, which seated...I think they said seating the main floor along with all those big side bleachers they could seat twenty-five thousand people there. Well, we...we knew that the rent on that, which was five thousand dollars for the...for the...per night, back there was a tremendous thing and some people, you know, [gasps] "Can it be done?” But when the place was so jam full, they had to turn people away you know. I mean it was...it was really something. So we did get some publicity out of that, yes.

SHUSTER: Did...were you involved at all in the meetings in forty-four and forty-five that resulted in...

DUNLOP: Yes, indeed...

SHUSTER: ...the organization of Youth for Christ?

DUNLOP: ...we had...we had the Youth for Christ week, or was it two weeks? It may have been two weeks. I think it was two weeks at Winona Lake each summer there for quite some years there. And I was active there in the music some of those summers, yes indeed.

SHUSTER: But I was thinking of 1945. There was a meeting at Winona Lake where Youth for Christ was incorporated and became formally an organization and Torrey Johnson became, of course, president.

DUNLOP: Yes, Torrey became president of Youth for Christ International. Youth for Christ had been started almost simultaneously across America in the big cities. And this is why I say it doesn't seem as if you can program something like this because this is something that going to come

SHUSTER: Jack Wyrtzen with his Word of Life camps.

DUNLOP: Right. That's right. So it was just simultaneously springing.... Now your question was...?

SHUSTER: I was wondering if you were at the meeting where Youth for Christ was formally incorporated.

DUNLOP: Are you speaking about Inter...Youth for Christ International?

SHUSTER: Yeah, YFCI

DUNLOP: I don't...I can't remember, Bob, whether I was or not. It may have been that that was during one of those summer sessions at Winona Lake. I remember that Mrs. Billy Sunday had said to Torrey Johnson, she said, "If you...if you can ever fill up the Billy Sunday Tabernacle for a Youth for Christ rally," she said, "I'll give you five thousand dollars.” [Chuckles.] Well, and I mean that was quite a challenge, you know. But Billy Graham came as as a speaker. Those big rallies...of course, Billy wasn't then the famed Billy Graham he is today. Well, I want to tell you, when that place...and people...and automobiles began to converge upon Winona Lake and every...all the parking space was filled up and people converged into there by the thousands. The place was jammed full. And Mrs. Sunday said, "Okay. You've proved it.” But I can't remember if that was the time when there were.... But there were all-night prayer meetings there, there were all kinds of wonderful features there. And of course Youth for Christ band went over there. And not only was the Chicagoland Youth for Christ involved in those rallies but for instance they had the Detroit.... Oh there was quite a big Detroit Youth for Christ, but they called it VCY in Detroit. But that was still part of the same thing, you see. Voice of Christian Youth. And they had Ed Darling and, let's see, Ray Ivory. Oh, I can't remember all of these names. I have to grope to get some of these names that go so far back. But those boys were in that and many, many others.

SHUSTER: What...what kind of leader was Torrey Johnson as first president of Youth for Christ? What kind of impressions do you have of him?

DUNLOP: Well, Torrey has always been a man of prayer, Bob. I don't know of anything Torrey has ever done that he hasn't done it very definitely as a man of prayer. That was certainly true in Youth for Christ. I remember these Youth for Christ leaders were down on their knees, oh, many, many times long into the night in those Winona Lake rallies. And then, of course, he had many meetings with the Youth for Christ International setup, where the officers from various parts of the country who represented each area, came together. And there again, there were long sessions on prayer before the agenda was taken up, you, of the various business considerations and planning for rallies and all that kind of thing.

SHUSTER: Was he...what kind of preacher was he?

DUNLOP: Torrey Johnson always has been a preacher that has been very faithful to the word of God. I say this because of course I have still been working with Torrey this past eleven years. I have been a part of Bibletown with him. He still operates on the same basis. Prayer is a big part of the whole ministry there in Bibletown. And he is a great Bible preacher. I've heard of those who haven't...who thought Torrey's voice was a little bit against him but one soon...one soon get use to his...his voice, I mean his...his voice to me is very, very easy to listen to. I think he is a.... And he's...he's a very through preacher. His messages...he always preaching during Sunday morning during the busy winter conference season down there. The other speakers are called in to begin on a Sunday night and continue on through Friday night, but Torrey Johnson always preaches on Sunday morning and I am glad he does because I think his messages are simply great and tuned to the type of congregation that fills up that great auditorium on Sunday mornings there.

SHUSTER: What do you think was the reason for his being chosen as first president of YFCI?

DUNLOP: Well, I think Torrey's an aggressive man. I think he's a promoter. I think of Torrey Johnson as...as an unusual combination. Not only is he a fine preacher, (and by the way, he's an evangelist. He's been all over the country holding his own crusades outside of Youth for Christ. So he's quite an evangelist.) I think of him as a promoter, I think of him as an administrator because when I was on that early Youth for Christ...Chicagoland Youth for Christ committee we used to.... Every Monday morning we sat down together in his office in Midwest Bible Church and we batted the ball all over the office and we'd knock ourselves out jut trying to find out what we had done wrong and what we could do better and what would be the plan and program for the next rally. And then we'd make more mistakes and we come back the next Monday morning and do it all over again. And...and that's the way it was done. And Torrey is not only an administrator but he is a detailist. I declare, few things miss his attention when he comes in...into...into a service and when he comes into a meeting. And I'm constantly amazed. We have quite a staff down there, a number of youth ministers. Boy, he sure knows how to ferret out the things that he thinks are not done as they should be and he gets these boys on the ball. [Chuckles.] He...but he does it in a good way. He does in ion the right way. I've never seen any anger on his part. He's a.... Many times he been a...I suppose wanting to change things quickly, but he didn't do in a.... I've never seen him in a...a spirit of anger and that is perhaps unusual for a man of Torrey's influence and greatness. He's a man that has...I think that he has genuine Christian love in his heart. And he's always on the job, speaking to somebody about Christ. I mean, you talk about his staff, he leads the way in that way. He leads...he's always talking to somebody about Christ, constantly. So, this is...this is a wonderful, wonderful, thing. It's not just a professional thing with him, its a personal sincerity.

SHUSTER: When did you start with the overseas tours for Youth for Christ?

DUNLOP: [Pauses.] Are you speaking about my personal involvement or are you speaking about...?

SHUSTER: Your personal involvement.

DUNLOP: Well, there were a number of overseas trips, tours made by Youth for Christ. The first one did not involve me personally, but I remember there was quite a sendoff at...at the airport on that first trip. Billy Graham, Chuck Templeton (who then was in...the leader of Toronto Youth for Christ and was then on the ball for Christ, although he is not now) and I think Strat Shufelt was a member of that first team (there were four) and I think Doug Fischer. I think those four were the first team that went overseas. And I was down at the airport that morning. We had quite a large gathering to see that group off. And pictures were taken and Torrey was there. But then after that there quite a number of teams went and one of them...well, I was involved with the team that was supposed to go to Greece with Dr...with Bob Evans.

SHUSTER: What year was that?

DUNLOP: Well, that would be, let me see, 1947. And that whole thing was set up and I was a member of the team. And we had a Greek preacher, his name escapes me at the moment. He was a young American, Greek-American, I suppose I could call him that , and would be the natural man to go over in a sense there to a country of his own...his father was born over there, you see. He would be a real liaison there, I think, the normal thing with him going. So Bob Evans and I were to be a part of that team. We got our suitcases all packed and they had a real farewell for us at Midwest Church and Chicago Tabernacle and Youth for Christ and the very night before we were supposed to fly there was a coup de teat in Greece and a plot discovered that was supposed to be the overthrow of the government and of course the government immediately clamped down martial law and made it very clear that no gathering of any kind would be permitted for the time being. Well, this completely knocked out our Greek trip. And we all...we almost fell apart on the thing. It seemed as if we were in for a tremendous letdown. Well, we just had to accept it. It wasn't anybody's fault except the circumstances. And then the next year Torrey Johnso....

SHUSTER: 1948.

DUNLOP: In forty-eight. Torrey Johnson wanted Dr. Bob Cook to head up another team of three and he wanted me to go with Bob cook and.... Gregorio Tingson was the.... They called him the "Filipino Firebrand.” He was a young man from the Philippines and....

SHUSTER: How is that spelled? Tingson?

DUNLOP: Tingson. T-I-N-G-S-O-N. And Gregorio his name. He was quite fluent as a speaker and quite demonstrative in his preaching and he'd sometimes get his words mixed up. Use the wrong word for a certain thing. Sometimes he ventured out and used some words which were a little bit bigger than he should have. But he was well beloved and always made quite an imprint. They used to use him in some of our Chicago rallies and he'd speak for ten minutes and I mean, he would really set the place on fire. Well, the three of us went together then as a team to the Philippines and Bob Cook and he and I spent I think it was thirty days there, a month in the Philippines. Then we went on...Bob Cook and I went on without Gregorio. We left him there to carry on further meetings and we went on to China and to Japan and to India and on around the world and that was back in 1948. We had a three month tour all together.

SHUSTER: What were the formats of the rallies...what was the format of the rallies?

DUNLOP: Yes, the rallies had been set up ahead of cour...ahead of time, before our arrival pretty well. Missionaries had set us up. Andrew Gih had set us up over in China. He also interpreted for us. Well, of course in...in the Philippines, it's English speaking there, you see, so we had no problem there. The...there were certain tribal languages - Tagalog and other languages spoken in the Philippines, but all of our rallies were in English and no problem. We had a big final stadium rally there in Rinal [sp?] Stadium in Manila as a wind-up. Gregorio, of course, was right at home there with his own land there and he...he presented Bob Cook and me to this big audience of about seven thousand people and he said, "Ladies and gentlemen," he said, "I want you to know these people, these men better and better and better all the time.” He said, "Dr. Book Cook and Merrill Dunlop.” He said, "In fact, I want you to become contaminated with their enthusiasm.” [Laughs.] That's an example of the way he would get words mixed up now and then. But I mean, we used to laugh about that. But he was true blue and we had some great meetings and very, very wonderful response to the invitations given throughout that whole three days...three months.

SHUSTER: So the meetings would consist then of your playing and singing and....

DUNLOP: That's right. Bob Cook was quite a song leader himself. And so he and I would have the musical features before he would speak and he brought me on sometimes for bringing on the messages. And of course, when we spoke in China, spoke in Japan, we had to be interpreted. We'd always have interpreters there. When we got to India, we had meetings in English. In fact, I had one time when...when I had to preach at the largest English speaking church in India on a Sunday night and Hubert Mitchell was the missionary who had booked Bob Cook and me throughout various places in India and he had Bob Cook preaching in one...one town...city of that particular Sunday night and he had me preaching with him in Lucknow and I preached at a service...early service which was interpreted...was in an Indian language. What was the name of the...? Marathi or something like that. I can't think of the language it was in. And that was an early service about six. And then about seven thirty went over to this large service at the church that E. Stanley Jones had...had founded in Lucknow. Methodist University. And so I was the preacher that night and I was just quite overwhelmed when about two hundred people responded that night to the invitation out of a thousand. Well, Hubert Mitchell was there and conducted the after meeting with them. And so, you're just asking how these meetings worked out, Youth for Christ. This was one feature. Another time in the Philippines, when my briefcase got lost and this was a great tragedy because I had all our money in travelers checks in that briefcase. And I had...my passport was in there, which I should not have had in there. Should have had on my person but I had it in the briefcase. All of our health documents and everything that pertained to Bob and me and our travel plans were in that briefcase. And when we left Chicago, I said to Bob Cook, "Now Bob, whatever happens, don't ever let me...let this out of my hands. Because, "I said, "This is important that this particular brief bag...." We called it or briefcase. It was a little bit larger than a briefcase. We called it a brief...brief pack. And I said, "Don't ever let me...don't...if you ever see me leaving my hands off this or leaving it unprotected," I said, "please kick me hard." I said, "Or reprimand me, "I said, "Because this is important.” "Well," he said, "Okay.” And so when we got to...we got to the...Manila, we were...he and I were taking off...were going to take off with Gregorio for a trip down to Iloilo.... Am I boring you with all this?

SHUSTER: No.

DUNLOP: Maybe I'm getting off the track here.

SHUSTER: No.

DUNLOP: If I am, stop me. But I mean, this is part of Youth for Christ deal. I'm trying to...what I'm trying to show you is God works things out sometimes here. Well, we had a man over there...there was a man over there who was a...a Christian businessman by the name of John Caesip. I think his name was spelled C I...C-A-E-S-I-P or something similar to that. Caesip. Very fine Christian man. But he was Chinese. He was the owner of the CALI Airline. CALI. But there was...it stood for the Commercial Airline. [pauses] CLI. Commercial Airlines, anyway. That was called CALI. And so John Caesip gave Bob Cook and me a letter and he said, "Anywhere you boys in Youth for Christ are going to have your meetings up and down the Philippine Islands," he said, "you can have free transportation on any of my planes. Just show this letter to the cap...to the...at the gate.” Which was a very wonderful thing. And the morning we left Manila to go down to a whole group of...of meetings in various cities in the Philippine Islands, John Caesip was there personally. And I was there with my briefcase in my hand and Bob Cook was there with one suitcase he had. We checked in other suitcases but each wanted to have this particular one on the plane. So John looked at Bob and me and he said, "Now, he said, "Merrill and Bob, I want to tell you, I'm going to have my man take your two cases...your suitcase, Bob and your briefcase Merrill, and put them on the plane.” He said, "My own man will put them on the plane with the...with the pilot.” Well, I looked at Bob and he looked at me and his man took both these suitcases of ours, my brief pack and I..."Well, Lord, You know!" [Chuckles.] We got on the plane and I couldn't find my briefcase and he couldn't find his suitcase and there was a whole bunch of things put under a net on this particular plane. It was not exclusively passenger. They had a lot of suitcase and things under a net. We couldn't see it there either. And on the way down there, we wondered where...where they were. And I said, "Well, it will be alright. They'll show up when we get off.” And Gregorio Tingson didn't know either. You see, he...his things were checked to Iloilo and so we got down there and here was a big Youth for Christ band, ready to greet us. And they had banners and all the rest of it. And "Welcome to Iloilo!" and all of that type of thing. A big crowd of young people right at the airport, where our plane rolled in. And Gregorio said, "Now Merrill and Bob," he said, "They're going to take you all around the city on a parade. So you two guys have got to be there.” So, he said, "I'll stay behind and take...get your suitcases and things and everything will be fine.”

So we were put on this parade and they had the music and took us all around their whole area by car. And then we were brought back probably an hour later to our motel and Gregorio was then and he said, "I haven't seen your briefcase.” He said, "I haven't seen your suitcase, Bob.” Well, I said, "Where are they. They were taken on the plane, you know.” It was a very serious thing. And I was worried like anything. And they telephoned around, nobody had seen them. And they got in touch with the airport. They couldn't find any trace of them and they were just not there. We had meetings for two days in Iloilo and we hoped that they would be showing up and Gregorio said, "I'll be in touch with the airlines," so he was in touch with Manila back and forth and by phone. And they could not find those things. So Bob said to me after two days, he said, "Merrill, I think maybe what you should do," he said, "instead of going down south to Mindanao with Gregorio and

© 2017. The Billy Graham Center Archives. All rights reserved. This transcript may be reused with the following publication credit: Used by permission of the Billy Graham Center Archives, Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL. BGC Archives CN 50, T2 Transcripts - Page 18 me," he said, "I think you better go back to...to Manila and see if there hasn't been some report on the briefcases, because that is where the airline headquarters are. Contact John Caesip and tell him what's happened.” And so he had wired and wired Manila and got no answer. And so I got on the fish plane [chuckles], went back to Manila. And I saw the other two boys get on another plane, they left for Mindanao, where I was supposed to be there too. And I thought, "Why is all this happening.” I got back to...a couple of hours later I got back to Manila, I went over to the airport and I said, "Is there any possibility...?” I went over to the checkout counter. I said, "Is there any possibility that a briefcase has been found, a brief bag.” I said, "I have lost one and it was on a certain plane.” Well, this man said, "Well, I did know of a...a missing...some kind of a briefcase or something. It was a...and a suitcase.” And he said, "I think they did come back here on a plane.” And I said, "Well, we...we wired about it.” And I said, "We never got any answer.” He said, "Yeah, I got the wires right here in the drawer.” And he pulled out the tele...telegraph and Gregorio...Gregorio had wired from Iloilo back and it said, "Please locate missing Dunlop bag.” And the man said, "We didn't know what a Dunlop bag was so how could we answer?” Well, anyway, I went down to the downtown office where he told me to go, in a taxicab. And there was our suitcase and there was my brief bag. It was still locked and everything was intact and I got on the next plane the next morning and back down to IwoIwo...Iloilo and I was supposed to be there in time to meet their plane coming back from Mindanao and when I got down there, I waited for that plane in the airport and it didn't come on time. There was a young fellow in the airport, a young porter. I got talking to him. And I said, "I wonder what's happened to that plane.” And he said, "Well, I don't know.” And he sat down along side of me and there was nothing doing so I began to talk to him about the Lord and led that young boy to Christ after about forty minutes. And then the...I heard my name over the loud piece...the loudspeaker system. Said, "Mr Dunlop, please see the agent" and so forth, so I came up there and they said, "Dr. Cook, Bob Cook, has...has wired that he and Gregorio Tingson are stranded down on Mindanao because the plane had an engine give out.” And he said, "You will have to proceed across to the island of...." [pauses, unclear name]. Let's see. I can't think of the name of that island right now. Two islands and I had to conduct meetings for two nights alone without the other two and they had been billed for the three of us as a team. I had to conduct those services alone. But God was in a very, very...there in a real way and there were...I gave simple messages and invitations and there was a great response. I think several hundred people.

SHUSTER: About the response. Did you find that it differed from country to country as you went? Say from China, India, the Philippines? Or were...?

DUNLOP: Yes, yes, I think we have to realize this: while we had a big response to invitations in the Philippines, in fact when you have two or three hundred people for a service, a big service...for instance in [unclear name], which was Gregorio's home town, they have a tennis court and the place was just jammed full of people. There must have been two thousand people there that night, expecting the three of us to be there and I had the service. And...but...but about two hundred people responded to that invitation. I mean, we got to think that was a very wonderful thing, which of course it was. But some of the missionaries cautioned us. They said, "Now, gentlemen, don't let this disturb you in the wrong way. We're glad for the success but many time these people who think very highly of Americans," (at this particular time, now, since the war was just over), "they...they try to do the thing that they think you'd like to have them do.” And he said, "Many of them will put

SHUSTER: Did you find the same thing true in the other countries you visited?

DUNLOP: I think you can find it true in other countries too, yes. Now of course, yes. Now, of course, there was....

SHUSTER: There was an enthusiastic response in all the countries?

DUNLOP: I would say yes. Somewhat reserved in India. We had a number of services in...we had to have services in churchyard in India because there were restrictions there. And very few women would ever be in attendance there. There's always the men and dressed in their long, white, flowing headdress and garments, you know. And of course, most of them were Mohammedan and [pauses]. They were steeped of course in the traditions of...of...their...their countries in such a way that they were really opposed to Christianity. And we ran into of course the same thing in China. They had Buddhism. In Japan they have the same...the same type of thing, you see.

SHUSTER: Of course, in China there would be civil war going on at the time. Did you see...

DUNLOP: Well, yes...

SHUSTER: ...any evidence of that?

DUNLOP: ...there was a war going on at that time, but it hadn't...it hadn't come to the coastal cities yet. In fact, we were in Canton, we had meetings in Canton. We had meetings in Shanghai and some other coastal cities there. But they would say to us...they would say, "At times you can hear the guns out in the...out in the outer areas there as they're coming, approaching.” And the missionaries in China said, "Well, we think that two years will be the longest we'd ever have to stay here.” So we constantly under that...before the Bamboo Curtain, as they call it, finally fell. SHUSTER: So even at that time the missionaries were assuming that the Nationalists would be forced out.

DUNLOP: Yes, it looked as if they were going to be forced out. Actually, while they said two years, actually it was one year and nine months before it fell. But the soldiers were ragged. We saw them in so many places. They were mercenaries, really. They would fight for either side just because...for the best deal they could get and it was a sad, sad situation. Many of these soldiers were just in rags. It was just sad.

SHUSTER: What kind of people made up the audience in China?

DUNLOP: Well, we were in China in March, which was cold. None of the buildings in China in these cities had any heating arrangements. The Japanese had come in and taken over and they had stripped all these buildings of anything with iron. So they took all radiators out and all piping and

SHUSTER: Who made up the audiences?

DUNLOP: These audience were made up by as I say students in schools for the chapel services. And in the public meetings in churches had been set up ahead by missionaries.

SHUSTER: But were they...was the audience young or old or...

DUNLOP: They were middle aged people as they would be in...in a crosscut of our USA congregations. But they were all dressed the same, in these heavy padded blue [pauses] what would you call them, I don't know. You couldn't call them a costume. I mean a.... They were a blanket type of a jacket they wore and they came all the way down to their ankles. Heavily padded. And they would stand there, apparently quite warm. There were no chairs. They would stand. And we would see these places just packed with people. They were all dressed in that same kind of blue Chinese padded garment. But they came because they wanted to come. They wanted to hear the message And they had been properly set up by the missionaries and I think we had good results there.

SHUSTER: What about Japan. Of course it was under American occupation then.

DUNLOP: Japan was under American occupation. In fact we...when Bob Cook and I were there...we were only in Japan for a week, in fact eight days I think it was. We were there. We lived in the home of the general who had placed by our government in charge of all reparations for Japan. General [pauses] my, isn't it terrible, I can't even think of his name at the moment. I'm sure it will come to me. he was a very well known...known general, brigadier general and [pauses] oh, it disturbs me to think I can't say his name at the moment. He later, after he got of the service, I think he was stationed in Chicago in an orphans work. But he and his wife were such wonderful people and they had been assigned the home of the former Japan...ambassador of...of Germany to Japan and all the furnishings had been left there. It was...this was one of the few place that had not been bombed. No bomb had ever hit it. It hadn't hit Hirohito's palace either. But everything else was pretty much a shambles in Tokyo. But we had the...we had services anyway and we had a Sunday morning Easter service I remember in...in Yokohama. And in those services, those people did not want a regular one hour and fifteen minute or thirty minute service as we have in the United States. Bob Cook and I had an Easter afternoon rally there in Yokohama and they told us, "Now look, you have got to go for three hours. These people will be highly incensed if you have a service any less than three hours.” So we had to start at two I guess and go to five. And it was...we just kept on...music and music and then the message and more music and more message. I gave a message,

Bob Cook gave the main message, of course, he put me in for testimonies and for messages and for music and he sang and we did everything. But three hours is not easy, you know, to fill in the time, but that's the way it was in Japan.

SHUSTER: In all your travels on this first trip did you come across people who had been influenced by Paul Rader? Missionaries?

DUNLOP: Yes, we did. In many, many places. Missionaries who were stationed there in the forties (it was forty-eight when we made that world trip) we found many missionaries who had been influenced or who were there on the field by Paul Rader and I've often said if Paul Rader did not have any great monument in the way of a building left with his name on it, his name has been engraved on people all around this world and eternity is going to show that to be the case.

SHUSTER: Do you recall any of...the names of any of these missionaries?

DUNLOP: Well, I...I.... Of course, R.A. Jaffray was the great missionary over in Indonesia. Of course, we didn't get to his field. We were in...now for instance the South China Boat Mission, we were on their boats and there were missionaries there who had been definitely influenced by Paul Rader. The orphanage work in China.... There again I have to stop to think of these missionaries names. You see, that was forty-eight and this is seventy-nine. You can see that the cog in my brain are not just oiled up enough to have...to bring back all those names. And I am still smarting over the fact that I can't think of the general's name. [Pauses.] But anyway, what was the thing you were asking me about there.

SHUSTER: About some of the missionaries who you met or other people you met who....

DUNLOP: Oh yes. Well, I'm trying to think, but there were.... Of course, Hubert Mitchell in India had been very definitely one who had been influenced by Paul Rader, tremendously so. And I think probably Andrew Gih in China, a missionary there. I'm not one hundred percent sure of that but he was our interpreter there in China and was so gracious to us. SHUSTER: That's G-E-E?

DUNLOP: G I H. He's still active as a man who has a great work in China now. I just can't think of others at the moment.

SHUSTER: I recall reading that Youth for Christ was invited into Japan by General McArthur. Was this...?

DUNLOP: Oh, right.

SHUSTER: Was your mission part of that?

DUNLOP: I'm glad you mentioned that. Bob Cook and I were talking about that so, so much and he had been.... General McArthur had asked Youth for Christ to come in. He had opened the door to missionaries. He said, "I want....” He said, "I'd like to have a...a thousand missionaries to come

SHUSTER: This was in forty-eight?

DUNLOP: Yes. And the call went out across America. They couldn't get a thousand. They tried to get...I think they were finally able to get three hundred and only a small portion of those were evangelical missionaries. We had hoped to have an interview with General McArthur and one of his aides said it would be possible and we were really built up to that and it was supposed to be on the Monday, the day after Easter. And then the word came thought that the general was tied up with an American delegation of Senators or Congressmen and would not be free that day and he said we would have to postpone it to the latter part of that week, but by that time, of course, we had...had left Japan. Our meetings were over and so we couldn't stay. We had to go on to India. We missed that interview, which would have been so wonderful.

SHUSTER: Now, you've taken other tips for Youth for Christ as well.

DUNLOP: Yes, I have. I taken...I was...I took a three month trip around South America and all the South American countries with a Youth for Christ evang...who was then a Youth for Christ evangelist, Wally White.

SHUSTER: When was that?

DUNLOP: What was that?

SHUSTER: When was that?

DUNLOP: That was in 1949, the following year. And we went to...there again, we were set up, as Youth for Christ usually did, by a...ahead of time in all these various countries by the missionaries. Missionaries or other evangelicals who...who had everything arranged for us. And of course we had to work through these South American countries by interpreter, you see. When we got to HCJB...

SHUSTER: Ecuador

DUNLOP: Ecuador, down there, we had several wonderful days there and one of the men who was so helpful to Bob Cook and me was Dr. Aldomus [sp?]. Now why...I'm not having a problem with his name. It just flashes right there. But I can't think of the other name. But Dr. Aldomus [sp?] was a former priest in Spain and had been wonderfully converted and he had been used as...they said one of the most efficient and proficient in the use of the Spanish language in...what do they call it, Castellan?

SHUSTER: I think that's it.

DUNLOP: Castellan Spanish. He spoke magnificently in that Castellan Spanish. And he was...he was so wonderful to have on HCJB at that time because Spanish was being spoken the way it

SHUSTER: Wally White.

DUNLOP: He said to Wally White and me, "Don't use the terms you would so freely and quickly use in the United States.” He said, "By the term 'conversion' or 'baptism' or 'salvation' or for instance 'justification', this kind of thing.” He said, "In their thinking, any of these congregations and big city centers where you're meeting in...."(Not churches but in...in mostly in public auditoriums, because with a Catholic background, most of those people would not have come to church so we...we had them set up for the big public auditoriums.) But he said, "These people will...when you use the word 'salvation,' immediately they say, 'We're saved. Of course, we were baptized when we were twelve days old in the temple by the priest.' And they feel that they have all those things that you're talking about and they don't need anything else.” But he said, "You have to talk to those people like a kindergarten child and explain what sin is, explain what it means to be...to be lost and condemned.” And he said, "Otherwise, you'll never get them to realize their need of salvation.” And so he drilled into us in a very, very good way.... And so I think it changed our thinking along the...the line very greatly.

SHUSTER: When you were at HCJB, did you see Clarence Jones?

DUNLOP: Yes, Clarence....

SHUSTER: You had worked together at the Tabernacle.

DUNLOP: Oh yes. I was...Clarence Jones and I were good friends because we had been on Paul Rader's staff for many years. And they had quite a large staff down at HCJB and of course they...the men down there who were in charge then...of course Larson was there and a number of the others who were very well known at HCJB were there and they wanted us to broadcast and so we would broadcast both music and a message. You see, Bob Savage was there and his brother, I think, was a missionary further south in South America. I can't think of all the names of all the people. So many of that wonderful staff. And then we went on down to...over to other parts of...of [pauses]...

SHUSTER: South America?

DUNLOP: ...Ecuador, Ecuador. Had meetings in Guayaquil. Then went down to Bolivia. We had meetings in Bolivia and the altitude was very hard to get used to there. We had meetings in...in Chile. We had meetings in Santiago, Chile and...and in...in Temuco, Chile. I think Conception. I can't be sure of all the cities we had meetings in. And...but Temuco. I'll never forget the Temuco meetings. We had some fine missionaries there and a great, big public buildi...meeting there in Temuco and of course we had interpreters there. Sometimes the missionaries would tell us of

SHUSTER: What other countries did you visit?

DUNLOP: Well....

SHUSTER: There was Bolivia, Chile and Ecuador.

DUNLOP: Argentina. We had some meetings for quite some time in Argentina. Very good rallies. And Youth for Christ was down there. Quite a...they had quite a large English speaking section in Buenos Aires in Argentina and we had many meetings with them and also of course meetings for Argentineans which had to be translated into Spanish. And then we came around. We were in Montevideo, Uruguay and I think we missed Paraguay. We had no meeting in Paraguay. And we had.... Oh, we had meetings in Columbia. I forgot to say Columbia. We had some...that was the first country we went into after...Columbia first, I think then Ecuador. Then we came around to Brazil and of course that was a different language. We had to be interpreted into Portuguese, of course. Then we...I had to go up to Manaus in Brazil. See, Wally didn't go there. He had gone back, I think, and I carried on with meetings the missionaries had set up in Manaus in Brazil. That's...I had to fly along the Amazon River in a Catalina flying boat to get to Manaus when I had meetings there for two or three days with the missionaries there. And then I went back to the states.

SHUSTER: How...how...what was group response like on this trip? Did it vary from country to country?

DUNLOP: Yes, I would say when Wally and I were together in the large city rallies, we had very fine response, excellent, just excellent. Wally had taken very much to heart the things that Dr. Aldomus had suggested to us. And of course we had smaller meetings as well. We had some meetings in churches, too. Sunday mornings...I think two or three Sunday mornings we were in church services and we kind of had to fit in their...to their services. But if Bob...I mean if Wally White was presented for the message, then of course that was the thing we were there for. We were glad to fit in, you see.

SHUSTER: Well, how did people react from place to place?

DUNLOP: Well, in services like that, we can't always tell. You have to leave the message and let the Lord do His work. You can't...you couldn't always give an invitation in some of those places, you see.

SHUSTER: But did you meet any evidences of hostility or anti-Americanism?

DUNLOP: No, I don't think so. There was only one case I can recall, in a hotel in...Llaollao in Argentina. Isn't that a strange thing I remember that name? Llaollao is spelled L-L-A-O and then that was repeated, L L A O. And that was the name of the town. Well, no it wasn't in the meeting at all. It was in the hotel. I think we were...it was a German setup and I think pretty well...the spirit of the war hadn't got out of the headwaiter and some of those and we were kind of pushed out there. But that's hardly worth mentioning.

SHUSTER: So, in general you found the audience were friendly...

DUNLOP: Very friendly.

SHUSTER: ...and responsive to the Gospel?

DUNLOP: I think, very friendly. And of course, I think our sponsorship was responsible for that, you see. We had been set up in the right way.

SHUSTER: How were these trips financed?

DUNLOP: They were financed by offerings taken up ahead of time. The world trip that I spoke of Bob Cook and my going on before we had to...he and Gregorio Tingson and I had gone out for a number of stan...one night stands in city and towns all around the area where Youth for Christ had set us up. And the purpose of that was not only to have rallies there but to raise money for our foreign trips. And in most cases, people would of course respond very generously. And so those teams were provided for in this way. And I think our main Chicagoland Youth for Christ helped there. And I think our two churches, Midwest Bible Church and Chicago Gospel Tabernacle helped there also. So they were financed in that way.

[Break in tape as recorder is turned off and on]

SHUSTER: What was the name....

DUNLOP: I hated myself because I couldn't think of the name of the general. It was General Harrison, of all people, of course.

SHUSTER: And what was his first name?

DUNLOP: General William Harrison.

SHUSTER: William Harrison.

DUNLOP: He and his wife were so wonderfully gracious to Bob Cook and me. Made us right at home right in their...in their home. And I want to tell you, the general was every inch a general all during the daytime and when he would...we'd get into his car, meet him downtown somewhere and get into his call and come out to the home, to the house where he was...we were staying with him, his home, the ambassador's home and he would salute his aide who had driven him back and he got

SHUSTER: Were the American occupation forces in general helpful to you or neutral or...?

DUNLOP: We...we only saw those.... Now, for instance, in Japan we had to travel on the trains there in Japan. The...there re was practically no...cars were not very much used. They had converted automobiles into wood burners and they were running around the streets of Tokyo, burning wood and there was smoke...chimneys going up there. Cars. I don't know how they did it, but they did. And the streetcars, there were still streetcars running, which of course was electric, electricity. But they didn't have any glass windows in them. Windows had all been knocked out by whatever war knocks out and they didn't have enough glass to replace them, so they boarded them up. We had to travel on the trains and on everyone of these trains that would leave downtown station in Tokyo, there were too many people for the cars and when the doors would open there pushers who would push those people in during rush hours. And we could hardly believe it. But we couldn't go in those cars. We had to go into the back car. The back car was a car that had been attached onto the regular train and I think had red, white, and blue stripes around the whole car, which indicated that it was a car reserved for American air for..., American [pauses]

SHUSTER: Military?

DUNLOP: Occupational forces. And so we were assigned only to ride in those cars. And they were practically empty most of the time. Just a few people in them. And here up front people were jammed in like sardines. But we rode in those. So we didn't see too much.... Of course, we saw occupational forces there. I mean, we didn't have too much to do with them.

SHUSTER: Did you have services for them or did they come to the services you held?

DUNLOP: I can't remember whether we did or not. Whether we had any services for them or not. We...I don't remember that we did. We had to use Japanese...we had to use occupational force military scrip too. We couldn't use Japanese money.

END OF TAPE