The Depression and World War II
By Ian Densford Featuring James E. Horn Glenn Whitman, AP History Densford 2
Table of Contents
I. Contract Not included online
II. Statement of Purpose 3
III. Biography 4
IV. Historical Contextualization 6
V. Transcript 21
VI. Analysis 39
VII. Works Consulted 47 Densford 3
Statement of Purpose
The purpose of this interview is to learn about the depression and World War II era through what Mr. Jmnes Horn has experienced. It is important to know about this period because it directly preceded America at a time when it was about to drastically change its foreign policy. Densford 4
Biography: James E. Horn
James Eden Horn was bom on December 4, 1921 in a small town in Arkansas.
His parents moved to Washington DC in 1924; they had found life in Arkansas "limited."
His father worked for the government and had a steady income of $1200 a year. His mother worked at a department store and earned $12 a week. Their first area of residence was in Southwest DC, in an efficiency apartment near where the current Agricultural
Depmtment building is located. It had, what Mr. Horn referred to as, a "Murphy Bed," which was a bed in the wall that folded down. After living there for a short while, they moved to the 2100 block of F Street, Northwest DC, an area that is called Foggy Bottom.
James attended high school at Western. He was put on the Second All-High
Team for basketball by the school newspaper. Hitler invaded Poland when he was seventeen in 1939, but he knew or heard little about it. He won a French competition that same year, and was awarded with a third place metal by the French Ambassador. James was in his second year of college when the Japanese attacked Pearl Hmbor; he was listening to a Red Skins gmne when the announcer interrupted and reported what had happened.
James went to college at the University Maryland, mid graduated with a degree in
Chemistry. During those four yems, he played basketball, football, and he boxed. He played basketball in his freshman year, then took two years off to catch up with his schoolwork. When he returned to the team as a senior, he mostly played the bench. HE played football for one year under Clark Shawnasee, who cmne up with the T-formation.
He boxed in the ROTC Tournament and made it to the semi-finals, but had to withdraw from an arm injury. He graduated from Maryland in 1943 and signed up for the draft. Densford 5
He took Qumtermaster basic training at Fort Lee, Virginia. Afterwards he took an
aptitude test, earning a 144 out of 165. As a result, he was invited to pmticipate in the
Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP). He then was sent to Cincinnati to take
courses in engineering. The ASTP was abolished because ofthe need for every man in the war, so Jmnes went to Missouri to continue his courses in engineering. He left New
York on June 30, 1944. He spent a few weeks in England before he went over to France.
He was part of a replacement depot, but ended up with his own outfit because he spoke
fluent French. He never ran into any combat, mid just missed the Battle ofthe Bulge in
late 1944. He returned home in March of 1946.
He lived with his pments until he could support himself. He was pmt ofthe 52 20
Club, a program in which the government gave veterans twenty dollars a week for a year.
After deciding not to work for the government, James got involved in business, mid
selling Real Estate later on. He got married in January of 1951 to one Conelia Ruth
Hoffman. She was from Waynesburrow, Pennsylvania. They moved into a new three-
floor house in 1957. Their house was 9512 Crosby Road, Silver Spring, Marylmid. They
had five children together.
Mr. Horn has lived on Crosby Road since his house was built in 1957. He lives a
fairly busy life, exercising and attending dances regulmly. Densford 6
America in World War II
World War II officially began in 1939 with Hitler's invasion of Poland. It has
been considered both the best mid worst wm. Some thought it was a "good war" because
it ended the depression in America and established it as a world power. Others thought it
was one ofthe worst wars because it was a wm America really did not belong in, mid it
brought about new massive weapons of destruction. In either case, America became
involved in the war. Up until America entered the war. Hitler was fighting a successful
war throughout Europe. It was not until the summer of 1944 that Hitler began to face
significant loses. America's entrance into the Second World War was necessary because
ofthe vital role it played in obtaining victory for the Allies.
Fifty three million people were killed in the Second World War. Most of these
deaths can be blamed on one man, Adolph Hitler, who was determined to restore
Germany's pride and strength, which had been destroyed by World War Is treaty. As
said by Hitler, "the Treaty of Versailles was the document of German humiliation," and
he wanted revenge for the disgrace his country had to bear. The treaty had split the
Austro-Hungarian Empire; Hitler wanted to rejoin it, establishing a Third Reich. In order to achieve this, he needed to reinstate strong nationalism and have the complete support
ofthe German people. The National Socialist German Worker, or Nazi, Pmty gave him a
position that allowed him to speak out against the current government and be heard, even
supported. The First World War gave him propaganda, something that would stir the
hearts of German citizens. After the depression hit Europe, shortly after WWI, Hitler took the opportunity to win the people over and shut down the failing Weimm Republic,
which had little support because ofthe extreme economic decisions it had made. Hitler Densford 7
blamed the Treaty of Versailles as the cause of Germany's depression; some six million
voters backed him. His popularity grew and he became Chmicellor of Germany in 1933, the same year Franklin Roosevelt (FRD) became president, and eliminated all opposition.
He won the support ofthe people the same way FDR did, by establishing government
funded public projects, such as the construction ofthe Autobahn, Germmiy's super
highway. After rallying enough support. Hitler began to make his moves in building his
empire.
In 1935, he announced that Germany would no longer have a small military,
which was a violation of WWI's Treaty of Versailles. In 1936, he moved his Nazi troops
into the demilitarized zone of Rhineland and began to fortify the area. He took over
Austria without firing a shot in 1938, mid allied himself with the fascist dictator of Italy,
Benito Mussolini. That same year, representatives of Germany, Italy, France, and Britain
held the Munich Conference. America's isolationist views prevented an American
representative from attending. The meetings participants agreed on allowing Germany to
keep the countries it had taken if it would stop expanding westward. In 1939, Germany
signed the Non-Aggression Pact with Russia, ridding Hitler's fem of a two-front war. On
September 1, 1939, Hitler invaded Poland, using his new Stuka dive-bomber planes and tanks to his advantage mid putting Blitzkrieg, or lightning warfare, into effect. Two days
later, Frmice and Great Britain declared war on Germany. Though war was declared, no
fighting occurred on the western front until 1940 because German mid Russian forces
moved north, invading both Norway and Finlmid. On May 10, 1940, this "Phony War"
ended, as the western front became active. Churchill became the Prime Minister the
same day, after Chamberlain's retirement. Densford 8
In a month, Nazi forces had taken control ofthe countries surrounding the English
Channel, besides Britain, having only been slowed down by a Imge resistance at The
Hague. Hitler occupied Paris on June 13. On the twenty-second, France signed an armistice with Germany, permitting the Nazis to occupy half the country as well as the coast, while the French mmy was demobilized with a still existent government in unoccupied zones. Once Hitler had France, he planned to t^e Britain, code named
Operation Sea Lion. The British Royal Air Force, the RAF, was greatly helped by the invention ofthe radar during the Battle of Britain. The Nazi Air Force, the Luftwaffe, commanded by General Hermmin Goring, began relentless assaults on the RAF bases in
August, nearly wiping out their radar mid devastating their plmies. The Luftwaffe soon switched to civilimi tmgets. The Blitz, before the RAF bases were completely wiped out.
The Blitz was a failure, it only made the British more determined to fight and made
America more aware and interested in the wm. In December 1940, seeing that the western front was a stalemate. Hitler postponed Operation Sea Lion and tumed to expanding eastward. The British had won the Battle of Britain. The Nazi forces now moved straight through Yugoslavia mid into Greece; both countries surrendered in April of 1941. Hitler's plan was to now invade Russia, strongly believing that the defeat of
Russia would bring the fall of Britain. It was called Operation Barbarossa, and it began in June of 1941. Many believe that if Hitler had not fought in the Balkans, Germany might have been able to capture Russia (Ambrose 101). The only thing that really hindered the Germans was the hmsh Russimi winter; a second assault could have been organized if America had not entered the wm. Hitler came close to defeating the
Russians, having a successful cmnpaign up until November 1942. Germany made a huge Densford 9
push into Russia, causing the Soviet 62" Army to fall back to Stalingrad. The fighting in
Stalingrad was horrible. The two sides fought in destroyed houses and in the streets. The
brutal Russian winter made combat especially difficult for the Germans; their equipment
often froze mid broke, mid their soldiers were not properly equipped and clothed for such
extreme weather. Fighting continued until the end of Janumy 1943. Stalingrad marked the end ofthe Germmi invasion of Russia, and Germany began to withdraw soon after.
Meanwhile, in America, the people were mainly isolationists. They thought the
First World War was generally a mistake, believing that the 1934s Nye Committee was
correct in stating that America only becmne involved in the "war to end all wars" for
business reasons. The demobilization ofthe army and various neutrality acts under
Roosevelt assured them that America would not become involved in WWII. As time
went on, America began to question its neutrality. At the rate Hitler was moving, he threatened to make America the only existing democracy in the world. Hitler also
represented everything America hated: fascism. When Albert Einstein wmned Roosevelt that Germany was working on a weapon that could harness atomic energy, FDR
established the Office of Scientific Research mid Development (OSRD) mid began the
Mmihattan Project, which would later develop the atomic bomb. America also began to
realize that Britain and Frmice could not defeat Germany without some American aid. In
September of 1940, during the Battle of Britain, FDR helped Britain with the "Destroyers
for Bases" deal, in which fifty US Destroyers were given to Britain in exchmige for US
naval bases to be set up on British possessions. In December, Roosevelt changed the
"Cash-mid-Carry" policy to the "Lend-Lease" policy. Roosevelt told the objectors that
"The best defense of Great Britain is the best defense ofthe United States" (qtd. in Densford 10
Ambrose 114). However, there were loud oppositions to the lend-lease policy. Senator
Burton Wheeler from Montmia believed that this policy would drag America into the wm.
Isolationists, led by Charles Lindbergh, also had their disagreements with the United
States providing non-belligerent aid. When Hitler switched his focus to the eastem front, isolationists felt the United States would not help in a battle if Nazi were killing
Communists. In July of 1941, America sent off its first troops; they relieved British soldiers in Iceland who would be relocated in the Middle East, where help was needed.
That same month, FDR sent Harry Hopkins to talk with Joseph Stalin, the dictator of
Russia. Now that Hitler had attacked Russia, Stalin needed to ally himself with someone, and America mid Britain came to his aid. Stalin agreed to an alliance with the two countries if America would extend its lend-lease policy to Russia as well; the Triple
Alliance had formed. While Hopkins was in Russia, Roosevelt and Churchill secretly met and drew up the Atlantic Charter, outlining the principles of why the war was being fought. The main principles were similar to Wilson's Fourteen Points: the freedom ofthe seas, self-determination for all countries, a formation of a United Nations, and that neither America nor Britain would gain territory from the war. For all intents and purposes, America was in the war, but many Americmis were unaware of it. By
September, the US Navy was engaging German ships; FDR hoped Hitler would draw
America into the war by attacking American boats, but Hitler gave specific orders not to fire on American vessels, as there was no need to agitate a possible enemy.
In the Pacific Ocean, Roosevelt had halted all trade with Japan because it had invaded China and other Asian countries of American interest. Japanese Admiral
Yamamoto decided to invade the Philippines because he needed the oil from the island. Densford 11
Assuming this would miger America, the Admiral decided to attack Peml Harbor as well,
in hopes of crippling the US Navy mid allowing Japmi to take control ofthe entire Pacific
Ocemi. Japmiese fleets were organized and given the message to attack on December 2,
1941. They reached the naval base on December 7, 1941, destroying about half of
America's Navy at that time. Roosevelt declared wm on Japan the next day.
Yesterday, December 7, 1941- a date which will live in infamy- the United
States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air
forces ofthe empire of Japan... I ask that the Congress declare that since
the unprovoked mid dastardly attack... a state of wm has existed between
the United States and the Japanese Empire, (qtd. in Hofstadter, 401)
Germany declared wm on the United States three days later in accordance with its
allimice with Japan. Once in the wm, America agreed that it would focus on the wm in
Europe before the war against Japmi, as Germany was seen as a more present danger.
When the United States entered the wm, the Allies gained a new sense of hope. Until then. Hitler was managing to wage a fairly successful war against Europe.
After the bombing of Pearl Hmbor, virtually all of America supported Roosevelt's
decision to join the war. Even Senator Wheeler was heard to say "The only thing now to
do is to lick the hell out of them" (qtd. in Ambrose 133). Forces were sent over to
Europe, but little fighting was done on the western front. Stalin began demmiding that a
second front be created to m^e the war more difficult for the Germans because his
Soviet forces were the only ones fighting in 1942. In July of 1943, Eisenhower was put
in charge of invading Italy. The operation, code named Husky, was to start in Sicily and then move into Italy and sweep up the country. It would be the largest amphibious Densford 12
assault to date. During the assault, Mussolini lost power, and was replaced by King
Victor Emmanuel on July 25. Sicily was taken quite easily and with few losses, having
been conquered on August 17. But the Allies only succeeded in running the Germans
and Italians out rather than killing them; no major battles were fought in Sicily. The
Allies proceeded to move into Italy mid met a large resistance in Cassino. Cassino was
important because an earlier beach landing at Anzio had failed, so this battle would
determine if the Allies would take Italy. During the battle, the famous abbey of Monte
Cassino was bombed. Only the tomb of St. Benedict survived the shelling. The bombing
ofthe abbey gave the Allies bad press. Many felt the destruction was unnecessary, as it made little gain in the actual battle. Cassino would not be captured until May of 1944.
Under the new king, Italy surrendered on September 8, 1943. All Italian soldiers put
down their weapons, only to be captured by the Germmis, who put them in camps or had them murdered, and then replaced the Italimis at their posts. The Allies convinced Italy to declare war on Germmiy the following month. At the Teheran Conference in
November, Roosevelt assured Stalin of a second front sometime in the spring of 1944;
Stalin agreed to aid America against Japan after Hitler had been eliminated. Allied troops continued to fight the Germans in Italy, and finally mmched into Rome on June 4,
1944. Operation Overlord, commonly known as D-Day, would occur two days later.
Eisenhower was the Supreme Commmider ofthe large-scale operation; it would
be the largest amphibious assault ever. American, British, and Cmiadian forces Imided on
Omaha, Utah, Sword, Juno, and Gold beaches in Normandy, the Northern shores of
Frmice, after crossing the English Channel. A decoy army made up of card board cut
outs was set up farther north to fool the Nazis into believing the assault was occurring on Densford 13 the shores of Pas de Calais from Dover. This covert operation was code named Fortitude
and was led by General George Patton, who had participated in the invasion of Sicily.
Operation Overlord was originally planned for June 5, 1944, but poor weather postponed
it a day. The operation was rehearsed mmiy times, but when the actual raid took place, the Allies had some problems. Many ofthe soldiers became seasick in the choppy waters
due to the storm from the previous day; these ill men were slaughtered when the boats
reached the shore. At Omaha, many ofthe pillboxes on the beach were intact because
bombs from planes had missed, leaving German machine gunners to mow down
oncoming soldiers. Some compmiies suffered around ninety percent casualties in the first
few minutes ofthe Imiding (Ambrose 474) Firepower from the Navy managed to settle things at Omaha. Fortunately for the Allies, the Luftwaffe provided no protection during the invasion. D-Day was a complete success, though heavy casualties did result from the
landings. Another stalemate followed the landing. Neither side was able to gain any
ground, and this situation lasted about a month.
As all of this was going on, an Anti-Nazi organization planned to murder Hitler.
Most ofthe members were Nazis themselves, mid the conspirators even included high-
ranking officers. The plan was that Lieutenant Colonel Count Klaus von Stauffenberg
was to leave a brief case containing a time bomb inside Hitler's bunker. The Count
successfully planted the bomb, but the explosion failed to kill Hitler. Hitler lost hearing
in one of his ears and his left mm was temporarily paralyzed. Thousmids were arrested
and executed for the attempt.
On June 27, Eisenhower decided to make a push toward Germany. Patton, now
commanding forces that had landed in Normandy, swung around the German mmy mid Densford 14
attacked. Eight Germmiy infantry and two Panzer tank divisions were destroyed. A
second landing in France, Operation Dragoon, had Allied troops mrive in Southern
Frmice from the Mediterranean and meet up with the Allied forces that had landed in
Normandy. Hitler ordered the German Army to withdraw from Paris and that it be
burned as they left. General Dietrich von Choltitz refused to do so. Instead, he
compromised with the approaching Allied forces, who allowed him to leave the city if he
left it intact. The Allies entered Paris on August 25, 1944. Germany was being attacked
from all sides. Hitler planned a counter attack for the Western front. He had enlmged his
army by admitting teenagers into it, and had built bigger tanks, known as Tiger tanks.
Hitler intended to burst through the approaching Allied forces from the West and cut off their supplies that were arriving through Normandy. This was known as the Battle ofthe
Bulge, beginning on December 16, 1944. Hitler's plmi failed, mainly due to heavy
bombings from the air force. Hitler had put everything into that last attack, and now
Germany had lost more than it could afford.
In February of 1945, Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin met at Yalta to discuss how to divide the post-war world. The United States wanted a democratic Polish nation as
well as other democratic states in Europe. Russia wanted to annex Polmid and establish
new dictatorships throughout Europe. Stalin did agree to recognizing the Polish
government mid holding elections in Poland if he were to annex the country. The
conference also decided to divide Germany into four districts, each controlled by
America, Britain, Russia, and France.
Back in Germany, Eisenhower was closing in on Hitler. Eisenhower had control
ofthe Rhine River mid had the huge Ludendorff Bridge at Remagen to cross the river. Densford 15
The Soviet mmy reached Berlin on April 12, ^ead ofthe Allies. Churchill wanted to
liberate Berlin before Russia, which memit rushing ahead and risking lives. Eisenhower
saw no point to it, and neither did his commanders. Roosevelt died the same day in
Warm Springs, Georgia. Hmry Trummi became the President. As Russia was fighting the Nazis in the Battle of Berlin, Eisenhower discovered the first ofthe concentration
camps. He was horrified. On April 30, Hitler committed suicide by shooting himself in the mouth; his wife, Eva Braun, poisoned herself, as did some of his staff. Berlin fell to the Soviet Army on May 2, 1945. Friedeburg, the new president ofthe Reich, signed the terms ofthe surrender on May 8, which became known as Victory in Europe Day, or V-E
Day. The war in Europe was over. It could not have been possible without the help of the American forces.
As the battle raged in Europe, changes in America begmi to take place. America's
home front was more successful and productive than it had in years past. The war never
came to American soil, save Pearl Harbor, so progress was possible. During the wm,
unemployment dropped from twenty-five percent to one percent, and that one percent
was mainly composed of people switching jobs. The per capita income doubled
compared to the thirties. Factories went from producing consumer goods to war
necessities: jeeps, tmiks, uniforms, ammunition, and weapons. Since few consumer
goods were being made, most people put their income into savings accounts. America as
a whole became richer. The war received more support because it was ridding America
ofthe depression it was in. The nation cmne together for a common good. People
rationed their food, grew "victory gardens," made clothes last as long as possible, and did
whatever they could to help the war effort. America became "a 'we' generation" Densford 16
(Ambrose 427). Women began to go to work en mass and work in factories due to the
decreasing male labor supply. Women also formed support groups for the war: the
Women's Auxiliary Army Corps (WAACS) and the Women Accepted for Volunteer
Emergency Service (WAVES). Though it was a time of change, segregation was still
apparent, even in a war to stop racism. In many places, blacks were not allowed to vote,
but they could sign up to be enlisted in the army. There was a huge migration of Blacks to the North during the war because of war industry jobs, but they were discriminated
against, so A. Philip Randolph threatened to march on Washington if Roosevelt did not
do something about it. Roosevelt quickly passed Executive Order 8802, outlawing
discrimination in war industry jobs. There were some blacks who were conscientious
objectors to the war, and refused to fight because they did not want to participate in a war that was freeing other races away from home, while blacks were still second-class at
home. Conscientious objectors were required to perform other forms of service. Blacks
were not the only members of this group, many isolationists and pacifists were too.
Organizations such as the America First Committee and Civilian Public Service were
some ofthe choices for them. Non-pacifists, who strongly supported the wm, were afraid
not going to wm would make America weak and "backward;" "if Americans adopted
pacifism they, like the Germans, would choose a deprived culture" (Kennedy 10). The
war with Japan also created a huge fear of espionage from Japanese-Americmis living in
California. Executive Order 9066 relocated hundreds of thousands of Japanese-
Americans to camps in the western desert in February of 1942. Cmnp conditions were
poor and the weather was rough. While America was changing the world, America was
changing itself as well. Densford 17
The post-war world was very confusing, and many hostilities remained or were
created. Soldiers returned home crippled both physically and mentally, some with a
condition that reporter Ernie Pyle mid the soldiers called "combat fatigue." This was a
look in soldiers' eyes that showed "exhaustion, lack of sleep, tension far too long,
weariness that is too great, fear beyond fear, misery to the point of numbness, a look of
surpassing indifference to miything miybody cmi do" (qtd. in Ambrose 377). Many
soldiers had mental break downs years after their return from the war. All the vetermis
returning to their jobs created quite a chaos. Bill Mauldin, a cmtoonist for the Stars and
Stripes, commented on this:
He couldn't help feeling a pang of regret when his boss informed him that
of course he could have his old position but he felt the veteran should
realize that the man who now held his job was supporting a family and had
bought a house and would find it catastrophic to pack his dependents mid
go seeking a new job- while young men, especially wm heroes, would find
no trouble at all getting new jobs, mid probably better paying ones too.
Due to the fact that large amounts of people were reentering the work force, people began to wonder if another depression would occur. It did not for several reasons. The main
one was that America had become a permanent war time economy due to the Cold Wm,
which began right around the end ofthe Second World War. Consumer spending also
increased, largely due to the fact that most families had saved their money during the war
and now had excess amounts. Family income also rose, which also played into the
increased consumer spending. The new GI Bill, in 1944, also allowed for many returning Densford 18 vetermis to go to college instead of returning to their jobs. The large number of veterans and the baby boom that would occur in the next few years also caused a severe housing shortage. The Federal Housing Administration, established in 1945, made buying homes more affordable for the middle and working class. The invention of Levittowns, affordable housing that could be built quickly, also helped the problem. After the war in
America, more businesses and people moved south mid west. This created a boost in
Southern economy, which had always been the poorer part of America. Cities in Europe,
Asia, and Russia had been laid to ruin. The agreements made that ended WWII had solved the current problems, but had also created new ones. After the wm, the Triple
Alliance disappeared, and hostilities between America and the USSR led to the Cold
War. American felt betrayed that Stalin had lied about recognizing the Polish people and government; they no longer felt that they could trust miything Russia said. The war left
Korea divided against its people's will. The northern half had to be rewarded to Russia for its help in Japan. Germany was left divided against its people's will. It was seen as necessary to divide Germany until it had proven that it could become a peaceful country again. Both Germany and Korea were divided into a Communist half and an anti-
Communist half. Vietnam was given back to Frmice against the people's wishes. Japan was forced back in its pre-war borders. Italy was forced to part with its colonies in
Africa. Russia had annexed Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania as well as parts of Finland,
Czechoslov^ia, and Romania. Self-determination was put aside in order to satisfy the victors and keep the peace. Every country was angry, left with mixed feelings from having their borders changed without any thought for the citizens. This led to a Cold
War, with every country unstable mid unsure. In order to prevent what happened after Densford 19
WWI from happening again, the Marshall Plan, proposed by both Dean Acheson and
George Marshall, was approved in 1947. The Marshall Plan gave money and aid to
Western Europe and Japan for rebuilding their cities and economy. The North Atlantic
Treaty Organization (NATO) was formed in 1947 to protect Europe from the USSR, who
were now seen as a world threat. The Intemational Monetary Fund and the Intemational
Bank for Reconstruction and Development were set up in 1944 to help rebuild wm-
ravaged countries. Both would be powerful forces in the post-war world. Wm crime trials were also held under the Intemational Militmy Tribunal for mmiy Nazi officers.
America had accomplished all of this and had asked for nothing in return. It was hailed
as the "true friends ofthe oppressed ofthe earth" by various dictators (Ambrose 601).
America was beginning to assume the role as a world police, and as a promoter mid
protector of democracy. As Stephen Ambrose stated in Rise To Globalism. America's
foreign policy had completely chmiged.
Before World War II most Americans believed in a natural harmony of
interests between nations, assumed that there was a common commitment
to peace, and argued that no nation or people could profit from war...
During and after World Wm II, Americmis changed their attitudes. They
did not come to relish war, but they did learn to accept it... After World
War II, the nation adopted a policy of massive remmmnent and collective
security as a way to avoid miother war. That meant stationing troops mid
missiles overseas. (X) Densford 20
In order to put their authority into effect, the CIA was set up in 1947 to protect American
interests abroad, as well as conduct foreign affairs. As a result of WW II, America was a
world power and was no longer mi isolationist country.
It was important to the Allied victory that America had entered the war. Without
America, Hitler might have conquered all of Europe, perhaps Russia as well. America's
entrance into the wm brought Eisenhower's genius as well. Without Eisenhower's
brilliant battle plans, the Allied forces could have failed horribly. It is argued that the
Allies would have won the war whether or not America had entered. They believe that
Russia would still have caused the fall of Berlin and the Nazi demise. Of course this is
not true because American forces weakened the Germans greatly. America opened up a
second front in western Africa, forcing Hitler to fight a two front war, which wore down the Nazi Army. Before America had entered the war. Hitler had occupied and fortified the entire mainland of Europe. Once America entered, the Germmis began to fall back towards Berlin. Without American intervention, it was quite possible that Hitler could
have won. It is because of this that America was vital to the Allied victory in the Second
World War. Densford 21
Interview: James Horn
Ian Densford: I'm here with Mr. James Horn. It's January 2, 2001, about one o'clock; and here we go. All right, if we could just start off with your nmne mid where you're from.
James Horn: Well, my full nmne is James Eden, E-D-E-N, Horn. Eden is my mother's maiden name, we tried to keep it in the family somewhere. Kenny's named his younger daughter Kylie Eden, mid I have a little cousin down in the other side of Atlanta who's nmned Eden, her name's Mary Eden, mid her grmidchildren have mi Eden in their nmnes. It's a family name. I was bom in Arkmisas, a small town of 300, December 4, 1921. My mother and father came to Washington [DC] when I was less than three years old. He worked for the government, my father worked for the government, my mother worked for a department store. Things were kind of limited in Arkansas; there wasn't much to do that was gainful, so we migrated to DC. We lived in Southwest Washington, originally, near where the Agricultural Department is. There were some houses over there, which were torn down to build the new Agricultural Department on 14 [Street] and Constitution [Avenue] now. Then they later, after their displacement there, they moved to Foggy Bottom which was down the 2100 block of F Street, Northwest; it's an mea that's called Foggy Bottom. Right now the Watergate is there; there used to be a couple of gas storage tanks there; there used to be a brewery, Higheric Brewery. And those were done away with, and the Watergate on one side and the Potomac Plaza on the other, right near the Potomac [River], where Virginia Avenue runs into the Potomac. I think it was there when I was 3 or 4 yems old- 4 or 5 years old, maybe.
ID: And you said you grew up during the depression?
JH: Well, [my pments] came [to Washington] in about 1924, and of course we knew nothing; I knew nothing ofthe depression at that time. I went to kindergarten and first grade at Grant School, which was nem George Washington University in the 100 block of F [Street] and G [Street], Northwest. They originally lived in a small efficiency apartment that had, what we called, a "Murphy Bed" in the wall, which came down and Densford 22 opened up. The three of us lived in that for a while; then we moved to larger quarters in the same block, which had a bedroom. But about that time, in- the depression was in 1929, and I wasn't aware of it. Most ofthe government employees weren't too aware of it because their income was steady, wasn't high- My father's salary, I think, was about $1200 a year, my mother's was about $12 a week, mid we managed to buy a new car in 1931 for about $620.
ID: Was it a Model T?
JH: It was a Model T, or the successor to it. We went to Canada in it, as my granddaughter said, when I was about ten. But about that time. President Roosevelt cmne in in 1932, and he had sort of solved the depression problem by closing the banks and instituting some strict economy measures. So we didn't suffer much from the depression.
ID: What did you think about FDR?
JH: I thought he was the greatest, because he was all I knew. I was only ten years- ten or eleven years old, but... As a matter of fact he's the only Democrat I've ever voted for. I voted for him when I was overseas in 1944,1 guess it was. Voted by abstain ballot for him cause he was all we knew. He had a progrmn called the New Deal, mid we sang songs about the New Deal, mid we just thought he was the greatest. We weren't political at the time.
ID: What was America like before the wm that you can remember?
JH: Before the wm? Well way back in those days, it was about probably 90 percent white, and maybe 10 percent minority at most. And there was segregation in the schools and throughout society. We lived on F Street, and we had a streetcar that ran right down F Street, going east into the State War Navy building, tumed left, went around past the white house, back to Pennsylvmiia Avenue, and on out to the end ofthe line, a place called Barney Circle which is over in Southeast, then turned around and came back. The Densford 23
streetcar ran right in front ofthe house. Traffic was light, of course. There weren't that many cars; you could park on the streets. The school had a playground, where I went everyday after school. And my mother and father had an account at a little store, a little "Mom and Pop" type store, where I'd go after school for cookies and cake or whatever, ice cream. Whatever I wanted.
ID: I read in your granddaughter's book that you won a boxing metal.
JH: No. I joined the YMCA when I was eight years old downtown, 'cause my mother and father both worked. My father worked for the government and got off mound 4:30- 4 or 4:30, and my mother worked until 6 at the depmtment store. So to keep me out of trouble, they sent me to the Y, YMCA; I joined when I was eight. And I played basketball, because we played that on the playground across from my house. I lived on 4100 block of F [Street], which is only four blocks from the Y, and about five blocks from the State Department, and six blocks to the White House. So I went there a lot, I swam and played... played Ping-Pong, and played basketball, primarily. I was playing eighty-five pound basketball, and the coach, who we all got to know real well, asked me if- he says, "Have you ever wrestled?" I said, "No." He said, "We need a wrestler." I said, "I don't wanna do it." And he said, "Well, you're going to do it." So I wrestled in the eighty-five pound AU tournament, and I won it, I won that year. So then I wrestled in the ninety-five pound, mid I won that. We were from the sort of white ghetto. We lived in Foggy Bottom, at that time. It was not a high-class place, right now it is. One ofthe boys that I fell out beating in the final groups, his name was Jimmy Trimble, he was from Saint Alban's, which is a high-class school in the cathedral, Washington Cathedral. We got to bein' a little bit friends after that. We were from different sides of that track, but he was killed in the wm. So I wrestled, eighty-five mid ninety-five, but I basically played basketball. We won quite a few trophies, vmious Christmas tournaments. We used to play at the old Higheric Gym, which was down near where Watergate is now. The Higheric Brewery had a gymnasium, and they had pro-teams coming in. There was a female athlete named Babe Didrickson, did you ever hear of her? Babe Didrickson, she used to play with the men's team. And she later became a pro-golfer. She died pretty Densford 24
early of cancer, but she later married a pro-wrestler named George Harrius. And she went by Babe Didrickson-Harrius. And the FBI used to have a team, they used to have adult senior leagues down there. The FBI and vmious amateur teams around town used to have tournaments. And we had AU toummnents every year, and we won a few of those from the Y. And I played basketball in junior high school and in high school. And at Maryland I was a regulm on the freshmen team, then I quit for a couple years to keep up with my classes. Then I went back as a senior, and I wasn't proud enough to know that I wouldn't play much because they were looking to the future... I sat on the bench... but I was always interested in sports. At Mmyland they had a ROTC tournament, and I was hundred and fifty-five pounds, I boxed in that. I got to the finals, and... boxed on the Mmylmid team later. But I hurt my arm in the semi-final and had to forfeit the final. That's as fm- and in those days Mmyland was emphasizing football; they had a fellow nmned Clmk Shawnasee, who had come from the coast. He had this T formation which was a new type of football formation. He had everybody playing, so I played in Mmyland hundred and fifty pound football. But that only lasted about a yem because he moved on. But I've always been interested in sports. And when I was at Western the school paper put me on the All High team, put me on the second temn All High. At that time I was all every bit of five foot seven, running mound not knowing what I was doing. But they liked it, wanted to name me on the second temn All High. In those days, we didn't have any seven feet people. We had- the tallest one I can remember was about six' six", and we thought he was a freak, [laughs] Anyway, that was the extent ofthe boxing. That's what happened to my nose, it's been beaten on a few times. Only thing in my body that's ever been broken is my nose. Walked into lampposts... the neighborhood where I grew up in. Foggy Bottom, was sort of a lower- middle-class, I guess. And we were always fighting each other; always. We were all friends, but we still always fighted each other, mid then m^ing up. So I've had my nose broken a couple times.
ID: What did you know about Hitler before the war?
JH: Very little. I wasn't politically aware. I was in-1 was going to Maryland, I started Mmyland University in 1939. I was seventeen, mid I wasn't politically aware. I didn't Densford 25 follow it closely. I was like seventeen when Hitler invaded Poland. I wasn't too aware of what Hitler was doing.
ID: OK. What were your views ofthe war before America entered?
JH: I didn't have any real views, as I said. I remember-1 remember Peml Harbor; I was listening to the Redskins game on the radio when they came in, December 7, 1941, mid they announced Pearl Harbor. I was in my second year or third year- second yem of Mmyland, I guess. Couple of my classmates at Western High School in the district had fathers [that] were involved... One of 'em's father was an admiral at Pearl Hmbor, mid the other was a general. General Sylvester; he becmne- they became sort of a scapegoat for not being prepared. Couple of their sons were in my high school class. Western High School was the smallest one in the district; it's called the Duke Ellington School ofthe Arts, now. Lot ofthe boys came over- lot ofthe children came from Fort Myers, in Virginia, to go to Western. So we always had the best cadet core. We generally won the cadet competitions. But I wasn't politically aware, I didn't follow those things too closely.
ID: How did Pearl Harbor make you feel?
JH: Well, it made me angry, to the point that I still remember Pearl Hmbor. We used to sing the song "Remember Pearl Hmbor", and I still remember it.
ID: Remember the song?
JH: Yeah. I used to remember the song. I remember the-remember how it changed everybody's lives. There were some diplomats- actually there were a couple of Japmiese diplomats in Washington at the time, negotiating something or other. And Pearl Harbor happened; it was quite a shock. It's made me sort of anti-Japmiese all these years. I don't buy Japanese cms; even second hand. My kids would be surprised if they see me buy a Japanese car; I may fool them sooner or later. It was sort of a treacherous act, we Densford 26 thought. And as a matter of fact, a lot of fellas stationed at Pearl Harbor, a lot of people were killed, a battle ship sunk there, I believe, which still have the men in it at Pearl Harbor. I think there were eighteen hundred or a couple thousand sailors went down with it. I don't think that they've ever brought any- brought 'em up. I had alot of hard feelings against the Japanese.
ID: How do you feel about the Japanese internment?
JH: Well, I don't-1 didn't think the interment out on the coast was too fair, because they were of Japmiese origin, but they were citizens. I didn't really believe in that too much, but it was- Actually, we had some Japmiese troops in World War II that were very good, Japanese-Americmis. That was sort of a bad wrap, I think, but it was part of hysteria that occurs when things like that happen. It just kind of condemned unfairly those people. Some of them were very good soldiers, actually; they were in Italy, they did real- highly thorough.
ID: There's been a lot of talk that FDR had gotten America into the war to get it out of the depression. Do you agree with that?
JH: I never thought it-1 never thought about it that way. Because we had the depression before- the depression started in 1929 with the failure ofthe stock market and the banks, so I think that's a little stretched, because we're talking ten or twelve years later. But I think we had a lot of pressure from England to come over mid help, but I don't think he did it to provide and divert attention from the depression. The depression was pretty well over by then. Now, President Clinton, I think he stmts wars to divert attention from his- from his shenanigans. But I don't think- Fact is he's only got about fifteen more- what is it- eighteen more days and he's... I just hope he doesn't have time to start miother one. He would go after one if he could, but he's trying to work out this thing between the Arabs and the Jewish people; just to put a feather in his cap before he leaves office. What he does is- what we do- what they do at those negotiations they pay them, pay both sides to be friends, and- but we pay for it. We're still paying Egypt for one of those wars Densford 27 that they didn't fight, mid we pay the Palestinimis, we pay the Israelis, and it's kinda farcical, I think. But I don't think President Roosevelt had that tactic.
ID: When you went over to Europe, were you drafted or did you enlist?
JH: I- we had a draft board. I was living in Bethesda, [Maryland,] at the time, mid I had signed up for the draft board. And they- they let me graduate from Maryland [University]; I graduated from Maryland in May of 1943, and then I went to the draft board and told them I was ready, I was out of school, mid a short time later they called me. So I was drafted. But at that time-they had enough troops at that time. Sol could've stayed out, had I wmited to, but I wanted to try and do my part. So I thought that was the thing to do.
ID: You were over in Europe, right?
JH: Yes. I had a couple of basic trainings. I went to Fort Lee, down in Virginia, and took a basic training in Qumtermaster. And then- the army had a thing called the Special- Army Specialized Training Program, ASTP. And I was fresh out of Marylmid, and I had gotten... we had an aptitude test when we went in the army. And I think it was- the maximum you could get on the test was like 165, and you needed 110 to qualify for officer's training. I had like a 144, because I was just out of school, and it was mostly general knowledge. So they asked- they invited me to be in this specialized training program. So I went up to New York City and took my test. I could speak French, amongst other things, and my major was Chemistry in Maryland. So they sent me to Cincinnati in the winter of... '43 and I took some courses in engineering there. Then they abolished the program, they needed men. So I went- they sent me to Fort Leonard Wood, in Missouri, mid I took another basic in engineer, the new basic. And after that I went overseas. I left New York- D-Day was June 6 of '44, and I [didn't leave] New York until June the 30 . Went to England for three weeks, mid then I went to France. I was there, France and Belgium, for about twenty months. Densford 28
ID: And what did you play, when you were in England mid over there?
JH: Say what?
ID: What part did you play? What did you do?
JH: I was in areplacement depot. We were supposed to be replacements for the 101^ and the 82" air bom. And I stayed in a replacement depot for three weeks, and they sent us down across the [English] Channel in boats. I went over as an engineer replacement. But when I went in through a place called Cherbourg, well known for the initial landings- and as I said, I had a lot of friends from school. I had won a prize in French when I was a senior in high school, a city wide French competition. Came in third for the city, or for the area.
ID: Did the ambassador give you a medal?
JH: A bronze metal, yes. I went to the French Embassy back when I was seventeen. So they found out I could read and write it also, so I was working as an interpreter as we went up the coast. And then I rode around and landed up with mi outfit was part of the- pmt ofthe Third Army; ended up with an infantry outfit, which was part ofthe Third Army. By the time I got there, most ofthe fighting had gone back inlmid. So actually-1 was always a little bit late, like I am now adays. [smiles] A little bit behind. But I got to the Bulge there, and it was just about over when I got up there in the Bulge area, when the war ended. I was in a place in Belgium called Stabelot, S-T-A-B-E-L-O-T, which was adjacent to Malmady where the big Battle ofthe Bulge had just concluded, when I got there. So they heard I was coming, so they quit, couldn't get into it. [smiles] But I voted for President Roosevelt when I was overseas because the last election that he rmi, that he won, I think that was unprecedented. Was that the third term, or was it the fourth? The third term I believe. The two term limit, but because ofthe crisis, not going to change forces in mid stream, he ran again. And I voted for him absentee overseas. I guess I was in Belgium when he died. I stayed there until-1 didn't have enough points to Densford 29
come home until March of 1946, so I was in Europe from July '45,1 guess, to March of '46. I think my father had been over there, too, from World Wm I. That's about it.
ID: So you never ran into any combat?
JH: I was equipped to shoot, but I didn't shoot miything. Never had the occasion, fortunately. When I got to the Bulge area, it was just ending.
ID: Do you believe that America's entrance into the war was vital to the Allied victory?
JH: Absolutely. You see. Hitler had taken on too much, he had- he was beating them all to pieces. But when he took on Russia, just like Napoleon had tried Russia... Russia- originally Russia and Germmiy were allies in World War II, they were allies. But then they split, and Hitler tried to invade Russia. And he got bogged down there, like Napoleon did because ofthe snow mid the people. And he was fighting on too many fronts, and his only ally at that time was Italy, and they weren't very strong. So he just bit off more than he could chew, otherwise he was doing pretty well. They were good soldiers, the regular soldiers, very well organized, they were tough soldiers. But they tried to do too much. They were going to try and invade Britain, sooner or later, so they were fighting on three or four fronts there. They ran out of manpower, and of course then the Americans- most ofthe American-British bombing sort of crippled them badly. They just tried too much, couldn't hmidle it.
ID: What was Europe like during the war, while you were there?
JH: Well, when I was there, nothing was too good for us. They were very friendly and welcoming and took us in, treated us very loyally, I thought. Very well. But most of those people have passed on by now, I'm sure. But they had gotten tired ofthe Germmis; the Germans had occupied France and Paris, so they were glad to see the Americans come. They were very hospitable. I don't know how they-1 have not been back since 1946. I've never been-1 have friends there, too. Very good friends, but Ijust never got Densford 30
back. Just came home and had a family mid got bogged down in trying to do things here. I've never been back.
ID: Did you ever go through any destroyed cities or anything?
JH: Well, basically, when I went through the small areas Cherbourg there, there was a lot of destruction. But I wasn't in any ofthe Germmi cities that were bombed. By the time I got there it was just about- the war was just about concluded.
ID: There have been people who accuse FDR of having knowledge ofthe Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor before it happened. How does that make you feel that people have accused him of that?
JH: I don't believe that to be the case. I would never believe it. If it were the truth, I would be very surprised, 'cause to me, Frmiklin Roosevelt was a real patriot and a real leader. I wouldn't believe it, personally. And I said I wasn't politically aware in those days, I follow it pretty closely now. But I don't believe that to be the truth. Here's something that might interest you slightly. Would you like to look at-1 have a little bit of vertigo... I'll lend you this book, if you like. This is by- we had a cmtoonist named Bill Mauldin, mid he wrote for Stars and Stripes, which was the paper we had. I picked this book up recently, I finished it. He became- we read him faithfully in World Wm II, but when he came home- he came home, he came home earlier- he came home slightly after the war because he'd been there probably four years. But his Willy and Joe were very famous cartoons, and if you'd like to take it mid look it over. He had different political reactions thmi I did because he was a little bit older, I guess- he wasn't much older. 'Cause I think he's-1 guess I was- a couple years older than I. But if you want to look at that...
ID: That'd be great. Densford 31
JH: It's interesting. He became very reactionary afterwards. He became more of a political cartoonist, and he fell out of favor. And I don't know what happened to him. But when he went over- when he was in the service and before his cartoons were syndicated, so he was pretty well off. But if you've read- if you have time to read that, he felt that everything was stupid. That out being there and having to, you know, lose lives in corps, he thought was sort of not a great idea. But most of us were all pepped up and wanted to do our part for the country.
ID: During the war, who did you feel was America's greatest enemy, Germany or Japan?
JH: Well, I was in Europe, I felt Germany. But from all indications, it was probably equal. I think we had maybe more men committed to Europe, and I think there was more chance of Germany winning. I don't know, I couldn't rate those because I don't know much about the Southeast Theater. But we considered Germany the more dangerous.
ID: OK. Do you believe that the use ofthe Atomic Bomb on Japmi was justified?
JH: Well, I've thought about that a lot. I would've hated to order it, myself. President Truman ordered it, and it did shorten the war. But it saved a lot our lives, too, and it devastated that country. I don't know, maybe it's an ethical thing. I'd hate to drop. But on the smne token, I think they would have dropped it on us if they had it, if they could have. All things- they say all things are fair in love and war, mid that was wm. I don't know, I would've- 'course I never wanted to be president- but I would've been reluctant to drop it. But I think we gave them-1 don't know how much warning we gave them, or how much notice. I don' know, because, I say, I was in Europe at the time, and I didn't follow it closely, what was happening in Asia. But I think they gave-1 think they had some warning. You probably know better than I do.
ID: They dropped fliers over the city. Densford 32
JH: Yeah. But I don't know. Maybe the Japanese didn't believe it would happen or didn't believe it could be that devastating. But it was a bad thing. But so were the bombs dropped, you know, on Germmiy. They were pretty bad, they were pretty devastating. I guess the president felt he should do it, it did save a lot of American lives. And when you're fighting for the life of your country, more or less, you have to be a little drastic. That little Mmquis the Queensbury rules in war, except those-1 think they started a Red Cross Convention that they file for the wounded, but how you wound them, I don't think they have any restrictions on that. The weapons are all pretty lethal, pretty devastating.
ID: This next question is a little more historical. Would you blame the war, the Second World War, on America's isolationism during the '20s and '30s or World War Is failure to settle European differences?
JH: I cmi't-1 say, I wasn't politically aware in those days, and I've never studied it enough to think about that too much. But isolationism, that so called, wasn't all bad because when you- know that we have so many countries and mettle into so many countries' businesses, it's bound to cause antagonisms. Try to force out way onto the rest ofthe world. It does cause a lot- many more countries dislike us than like us. And, so that whole policy of no foreign entanglements wasn't all bad, but it has to be moderated. You cmi't be totally isolationists. But you can hold some of them at mm's length, but when you go into other people's countries and try to enforce your will on them and tell them how they should run their governments, and how they should live, mid what their customs should be, bound to cause antagonisms that will lead to... wars, if they become powerful enough. So... but I don't know that the isolationism was a cause ofthe war. I think that- we talking about World War II or World Wm I?
ID: World War II.
JH: World War II? I think the main cause for that was Germmiy's need for expmision; they didn't have-what they called lebensraum-they didn't have enough room to do all Densford 33 their mischief, and they wanted to take other people's land. Theyjust were landlocked there. And I think it was more that than our isolationism.
ID: Do you personally believe that America should have become involved in the war?
JH: As I said, when I was at that age, I felt that we should- we should help, because most of our people, our ancestors came from mostly Europe, at that time... they sent their, what the Statue of Liberty is saying, their sick and their...
ID: Huddle masses and stuff.
JH: Hmm?
ID: Give me your sick and huddled masses and what not.
JH: Yes. And those were the kind that they sent over here, prisoners. Some of the prisoners [that] were from debtor's prisons and so forth they sent here, the worst ones they sent to Australia. So we did have some sort of kinship to Western Europe. It's like helping a friend, but actually what we do is go in and destroy these places and rebuild them. We've put Germmiy and Japan back on their feet with the Marshall Plan, I don't know if you've gotten into that yet. And then they became- well, Germany and France in pmticular became socially- socialistically oriented. So then we were supporting programs in France, for exmnple, that we wouldn't support at home. In other words, they had progrmns for- they were given an allowance for the children they had, the more children they had the more allowance they got, which we don't do here. We might give a little tax cut for children or something. But they had limited Socialism in Frmice. Put back on its feet by America, and I don't think they're that great of an ally right now. Although I like them myself, I like the people and the culture. Densford 34
ID: I know you were talking about socialism. I know that back in America there were a lot of them running mound, talking about how we should not have joined the war. How did they m^e you feel?
JH: Well, I wasn't-1 say, I didn't pay any attention to that. When I went in I was- when I was going around I was only 17, 18, 19, 20, and I didn't pay any attention to politics. I was more interested in sports and things like that, and trying to learn a few things- a few things in Marylmid. But I know some of those were Germmi supporters... had a lot of Germans in the Midwest, settled here and there. There were a lot of Germans everywhere who didn't believe in fighting against other Germans. I thought it was the thing to do because this is our country, and right or wrong, it's your country. But I don't shme that feeling right now, particularly. If they gave another war, nobody should go. But I didn't believe in conscientious objection in World War II. I wanted to be involved in history, mid I didn't want to stay home and protest. And I still wouldn't want to be left out.
ID: So you'd rejoin [the Army] if given another chance?
JH: At that age I would. At my age, they wouldn't take me of course. But I'd do it all over again. Yes, it sounds funny, but it was probably the greatest experience of my life. Being there for, you know, a couple years out ofthe country, where I haven't been out since and never would've gone, probably if it weren't for the war. So, I'd do it all over again.
ID: What was life like in America after you returned home?
JH: Well, I found it very pleasant. But according to Mauldin, if you read Mauldin's book, if you glance through it, I don't know if you're a fast reader or not, I'm not, but... There was a severe housing shortage, apparently, that I wasn't so much aware of because I moved right into my family's home... I was only- there were only three, my mother, my father and myself; I had no brothers and sisters. And I had a place to come to, but the Densford 35
ones who were married and had children and so forth, they had no place- they had a severe housing shortage. And they weren't treated too well, apparently. Of course Washington's sort of isolated itself from the reality ofthe rest ofthe country because of the people who are involved in government have pretty steady incomes, and they don't feel what the rest ofthe country feels. This is a special enclave. Being here, it didn't bother me, nothing bothered me, except... nothing. And after the war we used to have a club, we used to call it the 52 20 club. The government gave us each twenty dollars a week for a year, and we had to go down and stand in line and get it. They gave us- they called it the 52 20 club, while people were looking for work and so forth. And you'd see people down there that you thought were doing pretty well, otherwise, but they'd be pmtying one weekend mid then Monday they'd be in the 52 20 line to get their twenty dollars. But I had no real hardships after the war. Just deciding what to do. I'd been out of school for three years, mid I was thinking working in Chemistry and it'd pay fifty dollars a week in the government. And I figured I could do better than that doing something else. So I got involved in business. And after being in the service, I didn't want to t^e directions form people I considered idiots, so I didn't want to work in the government. My father had worked in the government, and he complained about it every- there's no advancement. Someone has to die before you get- in those days someone had to die before you got an advancement. And it was too restrictive, so I never-1 worked one summer for the government for the State Department, while I was going to Maryland; just one summer. My mother got me a job down there. She had moved up to the Statistical Branch ofthe State Department. I got a summer job there, but I never wanted to be a government employee. The only way to be independent was to do something else, which I did.
ID: Tom Brokaw wrote a book called The Greatest Generation.
JH: Yeah. I haven't read it, but I never liked Tom Brokaw before, but I like him now because he made us feel good, it made me feel good. Do you ever listen to Andy Roony? He's on Sixty Minutes, he comes on at the end. He was a war corespondent and I didn't even know about him in those days because, as I said, I did look at the Stars and Stripes, Densford 36
mainly for Mauldin's cartoons. But he wrote a book, which didn't go over too big, mid I never read it. After Brokaw's book got- became so popular, they reissued his book. And he feels what we just did what we should've done and deserve no special credit for it because it was something we should have done. So we're not the heroes that Brokaw said we were. But Brokaw's book made everyone feel better. I haven't read it, but from all the reports, it made me feel as though you hadn't wasted your time. I never felt that way anyhow, but a lot of people sort of had hmdships, the ones that were married and had children mid so forth and were drafted. But I never- Since I was unmarried... I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
ID: So would you agree with the statement that you guys me the greatest generation?
JH: No.
ID: No? Why not?
JH: No. You cmi't do that. No generation is any better than miy other generation, hmdly. I don't believe that. But it's nice to be told that, even if it isn't true. It makes you feel better. Yeah, flattery will get you everything miywhere.
ID: Are you fmniliar with the author Studs Terkle?
JH: I haven't read his stuff, I know very little about him. He was one ofthe ones I haven't read, and I read a lot, but I haven't read that. I haven't even read Catcher in the Rye, I've got it upstairs, my boys all read it. I haven't even read that one. I've read a few pages, but I read mi awful lot, but I read the older, like Hemingway and so forth.
ID: So, he wrote a book cdXled My American Century, where he went around the states interviewing a lot of people. He has one chapter about World Wm II titled "The Good War." Do you agree that it was a good wm? Densford 37
JH: I don't think any war is a good war, but as wms go, it was probably considered good. The cause was good, but I don't know. You can over-involve yourself in everyone else's wars, and it's better to stay at arm's length if you can, but some things you cmi't ignore. And it was something that had to be done, but I don't think there's any such thing as a good war. Your father was in Desert Storm, I guess, but I don't consider that a good war because they were fighting people that couldn't fight back. The same thing in Bosnia; they were fighting people who couldn't fight back, and it's just like a big guy picking on a little guy. It doesn't m^e sense. And like they're doing in Iraq with Sadam Hussein; he couldn't fight back, he had no- he had nothing. They were just like fish in a bmrel. They had no chance or miything. I don't believe in that kind of war. If you want to fight somebody that can fight you back. That's why I don't believe in shooting animals, because if you shoot an miimal, what's he going to do to you? Now if you want a shoot a lion or a tiger, that's all right because he might get to you. Make it a fair contest, [smiles] But you fight unfairly- to pick on people who cmi't defend themselves, I don't believe in that.
ID: Did you ever see any ofthe Jewish cmnps over in Europe?
JH: No.
ID: Did you hear a lot about them over there?
JH: Not at the time. No, I didn't. No, it was not in that area. I was mostly in Northern Frmice and in Belgium, mostly. Up to the German border.
ID: So did you only hem about that after it was over?
JH: Yes.
ID: What was your reaction? Densford 38
JH: It was very sickening. It's- As a matter of fact I know a few people who have- who were POWs. I don't know them intimately, but they have tattoos on them. They have number tattoos on them. Ye^, I know several Jewish seniors citizens that have them. That was highly inhumane. I took Germmi in Maryland, I took beginning in scientific German, there was a lot of stuff that was written in German. I got A's in both two years of it, and I read some German things, but I never-1 read some ofthe German philosophies, too, translated into English. It's hard to believe the things they did to people. You can't exterminate a race just because you don't like them, you just can't.
ID: Is there anything else that you'd like to share that you'd feel you'd like to mention that I haven't asked?
JH: No, my life's been very uneventful. Just the four kids and the wife. Nothing exciting has happened to me that I can think of. Just a pedestrian, ordinary, uneventful... well, I've had a lot of things that were important to me... not earthshaking. I've got a buddy, we were in service together, he's older than I am. He was married when he came in, he's a lawyer in Springfield, and he's now pretty univalent, apparently, and he's writing his memoirs. And he claims I saved his life, but I can't remember it. [laughs] And I have- one of my in-laws up in Pennsylvmiia is with the Army Reserve, in charge of the National Guard in... He was reading up about the bridge in Remmagon, Remagan, which is a bridge. And there's a James E. Horn in that, but he accuses me of being that one, but I said if I were there, I certainly don't remember it. I think it was somebody else with the same name. Which I've run across several times, but my middle name's different from everybody's, but I've run across several James E. Horns. One of which was black, I believe. I guess he was a kissing cousin or something, [laughs] But anyhow, no I don't have anything exciting to report.
ID: OK. Well, I'djust like to thmik you letting me interview you. Thank you very much.
JH: Allrighty. Densford 39
Analysis
History is the study ofthe past. The purpose of history is to try mid be as
unbiased as possible when presenting the facts. This is usually difficult because not
every side can be voiced equally. So history tends to be biased, usually towards those
who have control over what is being said in the history books, also known as exculpatory
history. Oral History is one method of obtaining historical information, mid is done by
interviewing someone about a specific time period or event. Oral history, though told
from a biased standpoint, allows for more objectivity. Since one can interview countless
people on the same topic, countless points of view me obtained. Over a certain mnount
of time mid interviews, one can practically have an objective history of something
because every side has been discussed. It also provides the story from the regulm people
"at the bottom", also known as compensatory history. But one cannot rely solely on oral
history; dates and actual historical events need to be verified. So oral history and history
work together to give one ofthe most accurate pictures ofthe past that can be obtained.
Oral history has only recently become well known and commonly used, mainly made
popular because of Studs Terkel. This sudden acceptance of oral history could be due to the fact that people are beginning to realize that those who have experienced history first
hmid are beginning to disappear. Oral history is valuable because it gives a first hand
account of history by someone who experienced it. This interview is historically valuable
because it provides James Horn's personal account and perspective ofthe depression and
World War II era, a time when America was changing itself, allowing for a better and
alternative way of understanding what happened then. Densford 40
Oral history is valuable because it offers a first hand account of history.
Unfortunately, these first hand sources are becoming older by the day, many of them me
already gone. It is important to get these stories so that every side can be hemd and
known. Oral history has also allowed a side to be hemd that was often ignored, such as the Native-American perspective of Little Bighorn. As author Joe Marshall puts it,
"People don't consider the resource of oral tradition as a valid one... We just wanted to tell the Indimi side ofthe story" (qtd. in Chmlier, A14). That side ofthe story is not
wrong, just different. An opposing perspective on something allows for any
exaggerations to be noticed and eliminated. Historian Carr said history was a
"continuous process of interaction between the historian and his facts, an unending dialog
between the present and the past" (qtd. in AP Hist. Notes, p. 1). In order for one to be a
good historian, one must know the facts mid dates of what occurred. But just facts can,
not only be boring, but biased. Perspective is also needed, a dialog between someone
who lived in the past and someone who lives in the present is the best way to obtain this.
That is why oral history is both good and useful.
I found the interview to be a more enjoyable side ofthe study of history, and to be
fairly successful. Textbooks mid notes are only so exciting. Being able to talk with
someone who actually lived during a historical era tends to create a different experience.
An interview also gave the history more of a personal touch. For my interview, I thought
I asked fairly decent questions. Although I'm not sure what, I'm sure better ones could
have been asked, but I felt mine served their purpose. I believe I set up a fairly
comfortable environment by being polite mid friendly, although Mr. Horn probably
helped with that too. The fact that I knew Mr. Horn and had talked to him numerous Densford 41 times before most likely made for a more laid back atmosphere. But I could have done
some things better. I should have let Mr. Horn answer his questions more thoroughly,
made sure he covered every part ofthe question possible. I should have also been more
ready to ask follow up questions on various events he mentioned. I thought the interview
was both good and useful. I learned some things about Mr. Horn that I had never known
before. I found out some things about his generation that gave me a better idea of his
generation, rather than the stereotype I had made through what I knew. I felt I had
received enough information from him on my topic and what was asked, mid he managed to provide extra information that helped to understand the time period. From this
interview, I think I learned that people are excellent sources for historical reference, and they tend to be more lively mid nicer than a textbook. For exmnple, Mr. Horn was hemd to make a joke or two, while a book does not offer a single kind word. As a historian, I
learned that, though they are not always completely accurate, people tend to be the best
historical source out there. They can go into more detail than miy book because they
lived through it; they knew exactly what happened and why. And their ideas and
opinions, which were formed by their leaders and generation, help to explain why things
happened as they did and how most people felt about it. One can lemn so much more
from one person than one book. Of course a book will always be reliable because it tends to be accurate, while a person could make up the best story ever and not a word of it
could be true. So both methods have their good and bad sides.
The interview is a summmy of Mr. Horn's life up to about 1947, as well as a
collection of his opinions on certain events. He lived through the Great Depression, was
in World War II, and experienced the post-war world. He grew up in Washington, DC, Densford 42
and went to school all up through college at Maryland University. After college, he was
drafted. He was in Europe as a replacement engineer and mi interpreter. After the war he
came home. The interview also sheds light on his generation and what they thought,
based on his opinions. For example, the attack on Pearl Harbor made Mr. Horn "sort of
anti-Japmiese all these years," which was how many felt back then (Horn 4). Before the
war, sports were the only real importmit thing in his life. Basketball was very popular
back then. President Frmiklin Roosevelt was very importmit to people back then too. He
was their savior, and they all loved him, believing he was the most loyal patriot ever. Mr.
Horn believed that American involvement was vital to the Allied victory, and he felt that
it was right to go and fight for his country. He was a strong believer in patriotism, as
were most people back then. Pearl Harbor was a huge event; he remembered where he
was and what he was doing when he heard the announcement. Having grown up in both times of isolationism and intervention, Mr. Horn believes that too much intervention only
causes trouble, and that some isolationism is necessary. The use ofthe atomic bomb in
Japan is still an uneasy issue, even with his generation, who would be more likely to have
supported that because of their personal resentment ofthe Japanese. Mr. Horn himself is
still unsure if it was justified, stuck between the devastation it caused and the American
lives it saved. So not only did the interview provide a better understanding ofthe time,
shmed the opinions of some ofthe veterans and some of Mr. Horn's generation.
All oral history interviews are valuable, each in its own way. This particular
interview is valuable because it gives both a citizen's and soldier's view during the time
around World War II. It gives his personal experiences with certain events. Of course it
is necessmy to verify what he has said so that this interview can be a reliable and Densford 43
valuable historical resource. Mr. Horn mentioned in the interview of Japanese-American troops that pmticipated in World War II (Horn 4). This can be verified. The 442d
Regiment was completely comprised of Japanese Americmis. Mr. Horn also mentions that he was in Cherbourg, where the initial landings took place (Horn 5). This is also true. The first landing on D-Day went through Cherbourg, France. Mr. Horn also recited
some facts that happened to be true as well: D-Day was on June 6, Hitler failed when he tried to take Russia just like Napoleon failed when he tried to take Russia, that Germany
and Russia were originally allies in the beginning ofthe wm, and his memory of Bill
Mauldin's "Willy and Joe" comics in The Stars and Stripes. All of these are facts,
proving that what Mr. Horn is saying is true and reliable. Therefore, it cmi be assumed that what he is saying is credible, which I personally believe anyhow. Since we know this to be a reliable source, it is necessary to explore its historical value. I myself have
always been taught that the Great Depression was an awful time, full of bankrupt people
and suicide. But Mr. Horn tells us of miother side:
The depression was in 1929, and I wasn't aware of it. Most ofthe
government employees weren't too aware of it because their
income was steady, wasn't high- My father's salary, I think, was
about $1200 a yem, my mother's was about $12 a week, and we
managed to buy a new car in 1931 for about $620. (1)
So the interview gives a conflicting view of what is typically learned and known about the period, allowing another perspective to be told. This is good because it gives us a
more realistic mid complete view of what happened; otherwise one would believe that
everyone was destitute during the depression. James continuously states in the interview Densford 44 that he was never really politically aware back when he was younger. He knew very little
about Hitler and his rise to power. But this was the case for most Americans during that time:
In the United States, the cynosure for most eyes was the 1939 New
York World's Fair, with its trylon and perisphere, its "Town of
Tomorrow", its General Motors show, and a Japanese Shinto
shrine enclosing a replica ofthe American Liberty Bell, made of
diamonds and pearls. The news from Europe was indeed dark, but
most Americans felt Europe was fm away, a distant continent from
which the United States had sensibly withdrawn. (Ambrose 39)
This demonstrates that most of what Mr. Horn said agrees with what the general
population of his generation experienced. Therefore, we could assume that other things he thought were shmed by some of his generation, as well. Of course this
is not the case for everyone back then, as a general assumption like that cminot be
made, which was learned through Mr. Horn's experiences during the depression
compared to what the majority of people experienced. So this interview is also
valuable because Mr. Horn represents the thoughts and ideas of his generation,
allowing for a deeper understmiding ofthe things people thought back during the
WWII era. And because he represents some ofthe thoughts of his generation, it is
important to know his view on isolationism:
But isolationism, that so called, wasn't all bad because when you-
know that we have so many countries and mettle into so many
countries' businesses, it's bound to cause antagonisms. Try to Densford 45
force our way onto the rest ofthe world. It does cause a lot- mmiy
more countries dislike us than like us. And, so that whole policy
of no foreign entanglements wasn't all bad, but it has to be
moderated. You can't be totally isolationists. But you cmi hold
some of them at arm's length, but when you go into other people's
countries mid try to enforce your will on them and tell them how
they should run their governments, and how they should live, and
what their customs should be, bound to cause antagonisms that will
lead to... wms, if they become powerful enough. (Horn 8)
This is important because it gives the opinion of Mr. Horn on a subject that was radically
being changed. The generation before his might have thought that intervention was the
worst decision America could make. But it was during Mr. Horn's generation that a tremendous change in foreign policy was t^ing place. And it would be the first time that
America would choose foreign entanglements and stay with it during a time of peace.
James Horn fits into a major pmt of America's history. This interview is valuable
because it is important to know the point of view of someone who went through a time
where America was changing what kind of country in wanted to be. And this change
would alter its relations with the rest ofthe world. The world needed leadership, and
America would be there to provide it. Mr. Horn's generation was also the first to
experience America as a world leader. His generation fits into history because they lived through America's trmisformation from a detached, relatively weak country when
compared to the rest ofthe world, to an engaged, powerful country with the ability to mass-produce and raise an army over night. Because he lived through such mi incredible Densford 46 time in America's history, this interview is valuable for studying that time period. His
perspective gives a better understanding of people's opinions and thoughts during an
amazing era. And not only is this historically valuable, but it is important to Mr. Horn
and me. It's a story of his life, something he personally thought was boring and
uneventful, but tumed out to be what I thought was fairly interesting. That is why oral
history is so valuable. We can lemn about a time period and events through what
someone is saying. This interview is important because it gives Mr. Horn's perception of things during a time when America was going through some changes that would change
its position in the world for yems to come.
If the project were to continue, the next step would be to go ask those follow up
questions that were missed the first time. It would also be good to allow him to talk
about the world after World War II. I would like to know his thoughts and opinions on the cold war, Vietnam, Korea, and even the trouble in Bosnia. Some final thoughts on
history are that it is necessary to know in order not "to be doomed to repeat it." And oral
history is a better and more entertaining way of learning history. This interview was
definitely better than a book. It was more fun and it gave me a different view on the
depression and World War II. Densford 47
Works Consulted
Ambrose, Stephen E. New History of World War II. New York, New York: Penguin Group, 1997
and Douglas G. Brinkley. Rise to Globalism. New York, New York: Penguin Books, 1997
Atheam, Robert G. American Heritage New Illustrated History ofthe United States. The Roosevelt Era. New York, New York: Dell, 1963
Calvocoressi, Peter, Guy Wint, and John Pritchard. Total War: The Story of World War n. New York: Patheon Books, 1972
Charlier, Mmj. "Little Bighorn From the Indimi Point of View." The Wall Street Journal 15 Sept. 1992: A14
Divine, Robert A. The Reluctant Belligerent: American Entry Into World War II. New York: Wiley, 1979
Fmgis, Paul. American History Desk Reference. New York, New York: Macmillan, 1997
Gossen, Rachel Waltner. Women Against the Good War: Conscientious Objection and Gender on the American Home Front. North Carolina: Chapel Hill, 1997
Hofstadter, Richard. Great Issues in American History. New York: Vintage, 1982
Kennedy, Kathleen. Disloyal Mothers and Scurrilous Citizens: Women and Subversion During World I. Bloomington, Indiana: Indiana University Press, 1999
MacLeish, Archibald. The American Cause. New York: Duell, Slomi, mid Pearce, 1941
Mauldin, Bill. Back Home. New York, New York: William Slomie Associates, 1947
Shirer, Willimn L. The Rise mid Fall ofthe Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany. New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1959
Zinn, Howard. A People's History ofthe United States: 1492-Present. New York: Harper Perennial, 1995