5341 Oral Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5342

RAJYA SABHA

Friday, the 25th September, 1965/the 2nd Asvina, 1887 (Saka)

The House met at ten of the clock, MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS t[THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI): A statement is laid on the Table of the House.

STATEMENT A steady reduction in the proportion of those dependent on agriculture is an important objective of our Five Year Plan. In the Third Plan it was proposed that about two-thirds of the increase in the labour force during the 15 years 1961—1976 should be absorbed in non- f [AGRICULTURISTS AND AGRICULTURAL agricultural occupations. To this end LABOUR programmes for the development of industries, transport and power, rural •806. SHRI B. N. SHARGAVA: Will the industrialisation and intensification of Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to agriculture are being pursued systematically state what more steps Government propose to through our Plans. Special attention to these take to bring down the percentage of aspects is being given in the context of the agriculturists and agricultural labour in the Fourth Plan.] total number of working force?]

] English translation 748RS—1 5343 Oral Answers [ ] to Questions, 5344

SHRI M. M. DHARIA: Is the Government considering to have an enactment of the nature of minimum wages for agricultural labourers while bring, ing down the proportion?

SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI: Perhaps that SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI: In the Third might be under the consideration of the Plan a target of employment opportunities for Labour Ministry. 14 million was set, of which 105 million were to be outside agricultture and 35 million with- in agriculture. The assessment indicates that PAKISTANIS RESIDING IN SECRETLY the Third Plan would be able to provide opportunities for about 9:5 million outside *807. PROF. SATYAVRATA SID- agriculture and 3-5 million within agriculture. DHANTALANKAR: Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to state: (a) whether Government's attention has been drawn to a news-item in 'Nava Bhafat Times' of 26th May, 1965 in which a spokesman of the Uttar Pradesh Government is reported to have said that the investigation during the last two months had revealed that about 2,000 Pakistanis were residing secretly in that State; arid SHRI B. K. GAIKWAD: What is the (b) if so, whether Government have asked percentage of agriculturists and j agricultural other States to undertake such an investigation labourers today? to find out as to Row many Pakistanis were secretly residing in India? SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI: That figure f have not got with me. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) Yes, Sir. (b) Yes. But the information regarding the number of such Pakistani nationals has not been received from all State Governments.

SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI;wfttTt !'? | | In the Second Five Year Plan the target of employment of 10 million was set of which 8 million was to be outside agriculture and the balance within agriculture. The actual achievement under the Plan was 6.5 million outside agriculture and 1.5 million within agriculture. 5345 0ral Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 5345

5347 °ral Answers [RAJYA SABHA] to Questions, 5348

SHRI : I would like to know what has happened to the Pakistani paratroopers who were dropped between and by a transport plane which crashed. The remains of the plane are there but there is nothing known about the crew who have neither been found dead nor captured. Uttar Pradesh claims that no paratroopers were dropped while claims that some were dropped. May I kaow whether the Central Intelligence had made enquiries in this matter?

SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI: Yes, Sir, enquiries were made and they were found somewhere round about Punjab.

†[ 1 Hindi transliteration. 5349 Oral Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5350 them as other Pakistani citizens Government is perpetrating, in my opinion, a cruelty and" is forcing them, these loyal Indians, to remain Pakistani citizens?

SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI: It is difficult to find out whether they wanted to come back to India or they wanted to stay there. They have come here On passports. They have made some representation, some people have made, that they had been there, they wanted to come back and in the meantime this system of passport was introduced and they had to take out a Pakistani passport. In such cases, we allow them to stay here.

SHRI FARIDUL HAQ ANSARI: May I know whether the hon. Minister has got any statistics about Delhi about the number of Pakistanis overstaying here? I am asking this question because in the papers, about a week ago, there was a news that quite a good number of Pakistanis are overstaying. I want to know what has happened to them.

SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI: About seventy people have been detained.

SHRI B. K. P. SINHA: Sir, the hon. Minister has said that there are different categories of Pakistanis in India. One of these categories is of those Indian Muslims who on some temporary business or some other work went to Pakistan when there was no permit system and then the permit system was introduced and the passport system was introduced. They were Indian citizens and they wanted to remain Indian citizens but because of the permit and passport system they could not come back unless they took a Pakistani passport. The force of circumstances compelled them to take a Pakistani passport. What is the number of such persons whom I consider Indian nationals in India at present and on whom, by treating

†[ ] Hindi transliteration.

5351 Oral Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 5352

to the notice of the House also because even this morning I got a message, for example, the relatives of Poet Nazrul Islam have been arrested under the Defence of India Rules. We know them for the past thirty, fifty years. There is nothing against them. SHRI : It is a very different question. The hon. Member also met me and I asked him to give me the names so that I could personally see if there was anything. I will see that nothing is done which will not be on adequate grounds. SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY; In this connection, I would like to bring to his notice the case of a gentleman, Mr. Peer Mohammad by name . , .

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no names, please.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: He i it. Sir.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Don't mention the names here. Give them to the Minister, if you so wish.

SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: I do not mention the name, Sir. I will give it to the Minister. ' One gentleman in Tirunelveli District, Madras State, had offered to co- operate with the officers in the war effort and the Collector appreciated his offer but even SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: It seems that without the knowledge of the Collector, the Government does not have a clear policy in particular gentleman has been arrested in spite regard to this matter. We are receiving reports of the fact that he had offered his services. He from "^even this morning I got a is a good propagandist and the Collector report—that members of the minority appreciated his work. He was arrested and he community belonging to our Party and other belongs to a minority community. Is that secular and democratic parties are being right? arrested under the Defence of India Rules on the ground, in some cases, that they have" MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the question? relatives in Pakistan or that they visited them last year and so on. May I know whether the SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: What are the country is going to have an assurance that reasons for his arrest? such Muslims would not be arrested and that when the parties concerned or others can SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: How will such vouch for their integrity, Government would cases be dealt with by Government or have move in the matter and set all those people been dealt with by Government? who have been arrested at liberty? We have brought this matter to the notice of the Home Minister and he has been good enough to consider this matter but I am bringing it 5353 Oral Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 5354 MR. CHAIRMAN: I think he can take SHRI GULZARILAL NANDA: All this care of himself. has been made known to us from various SHRI GULZARILAL NANDA: Although it sources as the hon. Member has been is not a question, 1 think it is an important acquainted but what the response of the Left enough matter that has bee.a raised here which Communist has been on this, of course, we calls for a clarification from me. In respect of will also try to find out. the many persons detained, it should not at all be construed that there is any kind of bias SHRI ARJUN ARORA: This crisis has against any community. A number of people revealed that many foreigners, including belonging to other communities have also been Pakistani citizens, overstay their visa in the detained; this is a much larger number and, country. May I know if the Home Ministry therefore, in every case, it is a question of the will take some steps which will ensure that no merits, the factual circumstances of each case. foreigner, whether Pakistani or otherwise, This is dealt with in the States. We lay down the will overstay his visa in the country, and also principles but they have to carry out their whether prompt action and strong action will responsibilities and they do not refer to us for be taken against those who overstay their each case. Still, I think I can exercise my good visas? offices when I find that there is some- j thing which calls for a fresh review | of.the matter. SHRI GULZARILAL NANDA: This is a matter fully under our consideration that our SHRI : May I arrangements should be tightened so that know whether Government is aware ' of the there is no overstay as far as possible fact that the Indonesian Com- ' munist Party Leaders issued a state- \ ment to wage a' civil SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: We know of the war in the country when Pakistan started its fantastic statement of an Indonesian aggression? Is it also a fact that the Chinese Communist leader but we do not know of all Communist Party instigated certain persons the things he said. Anyhow 'may I ask the hon. who belong to the Left Communist Party to Minister —it is not a question of any party; collaborate with the paratroopers coming from individuals ar there, independents— . a Pakistan? In these circumstances. It is not a e question? There is an independent M.L.A. in question of political affiliations but the i West Bengal who was arrested under the D.I.R. particular activity against the nation I that He was a captain in the Army and he offered counts for getting them arrested. ' his services to the Chief Minister of West MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the \ Bengal. There are such people belonging to question? many parties. I would like to know whether the Government is going to lay down a clear-cut SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: The policy so that people are consulted. Suppose question is whether Government is aware of you have some doubt about some people, you this fact that the Indonesian Communist Party can consult their party representatives or their and the Chinese Communist Party have been organisations and satisfy yourself instead of instigating the Left Communists in this coun- getting them arrested. So I want to know from try to collaborate with the Pakistani . . . him whether he is aware that in some places— it is not Mr. Nanda or even some Minister—the MR. CHAIRMAN: You do not h».ve to repeat the whole thing. I just wanted to know local officials and others and some employers what your question was. are getting some of the trade union and other people arrested because the going is good now under the D.I.R. and people could be put in jail. 5355 Oral Answers f RAJYA SABHA J to Questions 5356 SHRI GULZARILAL NANDA: It is entirely refinery agreement these companies had the repugna.it to my own attitude | that any person option of choosing their own tankers. should be detained or i his movements restrained because he j is a trade union worker. SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: Utilisatio* of Possibly a I mistake might occur but I do tankers is the option of the company? not ! think -any such thing has happened within my knowledge. And as I have told the SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR; Under the hon. Member he can let me know if anything refinery agreement which was signed about has occurred. ten or twelve years ago they had the option of choosing their tankers but under the new REVISION OF REFINERY AGREEMENT BY M/s. industrial licence it will be Indian tankers. BURMAH SHELL SHRI ARJUN ARORA: May I know if the "808. SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: Will the agreement will take care of the price of crude Minister of PETROLEUM AND which the Burma-Shell imports? CHEMICALS be pleased to state: SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: Regarding the (a) whether M/s. Burmah Shell have price of crude also, this will be determined agreed to revise the existing refinery according to the formula laid down by the agreement; and working group. There also there is a change from the past.

(b) if so, when the revised agreement is SHRI A. D. MANI: May I ask whether the expected to be signed? Burmah-Shell during the present emergency, that is, during the recent conflict, was able to THE MINISTER OF PETROLEUM AND meet the defence requirements of India or was CHEMICALS (SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR): there any reluctance on their part to supply a (a) and (b) Burmah-Shell have agreed in certain kind of petroleum product? The principle to the revision of the existing second question I would like to ask is ... refinery agreement. Draft letters have been drawn up for the purpose and a reply from the SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: Sir, one at a company is awaited. time would be better. SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: What are the Now this supplementary does not arise main features of the new agreement? from this question but in order to remove any misgivings or doubts, I would say that there SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: The major has been full co-operation from them. change will be that till now there was the refinery agreement which gave them certain SHRI C. D. PANDE: May I know whether privileges. In future they will be governed by the Government propose to insert a stipulation the ordinary industrial licence. There are two that in case of non-availability of crude from features to which I would like to draw the their sources they will be forced to utilise the attention of the House as a result of this crude that we will supply to them? For industrial licence. The first great change will example, they get their crude from Persia but be regarding the utilisation of indigenous if Persia failed to supply crude to them, it crude oil. In future indigenous crude oil which should be incumbent on them to utilise the will include crude produced in the country or crude that we may be -able to give them. outside by the Government or by the Government in partnership with others will be used by these companies. The second is about the use of tankers. Indian tankers will be given preference. Under the old 5357 Oral Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 5358 SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR; We have got conflict is over.—that even during the conflict this agreement that they will use indigenous we had definite assurances from the Iranian crude which will be defined by the Ambassador who met me. He said there was Government. The other point I will keep in no question of any stoppage of supplies to mind. The discussions started in 1962 and for India. Apart from that, we have other sources. two years were practically at a standstill. This Middle East area does not mean only one Since we are now on the point of reaching an country; there are at least half a dozen agreement, I would not like to introduce fresh countries and a large number of concerns. We features at this stage but this will be kept in have sufficient flexibility and we shall see that mind. crude supplies are kept available.

SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: The new SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: May I know agreement is an improvement on the last one whether in the light of the recent experience but I would ask the hon. Minister after the the Government is reconsidering the whole bitter experience of the last one month, don't matter not from the point of view of general you feel that it is time that this strategic policy but from the point of view of concrete material should be nationa-' lised instead of tasks? In view of the fact that many renewing the agreement? installations or pumps are there and the army units take petrol from them, they come to SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: This is a know the exact movements of the army and so question of policy and it does not arise out of on. What guarantee is there that these foreign this but I may tell the House that in the new concerns, "because they distribute oil in this agreement there is no assurance about manner through these various installations nationalisation whether it will be done or not. and pumps would not be knowing the army It will be left to the Government. movements and so on and why steps are not being taken to take over these immediately? PROF. B. N. PRASAD: Usually the Bumiah-Shell gets crude oil from the Middle SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: So far as East and of course in the new agreement you defence installations are concerned they are say that they will haVe to take some oil from governed according to certain rules. I shall Indian sources also. In view of the present also keej? in mind the point raised by the hon. conflict will it not be desirable that Burmah- Member. Shell should be encouraged to get crude oil SHRI M. M. DHARIA: Is there a provision from sources other than the Middle East? in the agreement for the whole of the There are sources in Africa, Russia and undertaking to be nationalised or taken over elsewhere. For the sake of precaution it will by the Government if it wants to do so? be very desirable that our sources of crude oil should be extended. Will it not be worth while SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: I have already to tell Burmah-Shell that the countries from said that under the new agreement no which they get crude oil should include also assurances have been given to the company Africa and other countries other than Middle on this point. East? SHRI JOSEPH MATHEN: The hon. Minister said that we have sufficient sources SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: Sir, this for the supply of crude oil. Then why is it we question deals with Refinery Agreement and are facing scarcity of kerosene and crude in the point of the hon. Member hardly arises this country? out of this. But I would say—first of all there is no conflict at the moment; fortunately the SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: This is a question of foreign exchange, not of supply. 5359 Oral Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 5360 SHRI SANTOKH SINGH: The amount of other States have been given such grants for crude found in the country falls short of the rehabilitation of refugees from East Pakistan? needs of the country itself and so we have to import crude May i know the likely difference DR. : Several other in the comparative rates of the imported crude States of India have taken upon themselves and the indigenous crude and is there any the task of helping the Central Government by scheme of fixing a common price for all the rehabilitating a certain number of refugees in crude to be supplied to the refinery whether it their own States, such as U. P., Bihar, Orissa, is public sector or the private sector? Andhra Pradesh Maharashtra, etc. Everyone SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: Today our of these States is being given the amount capacity is such that we can, if necessary, spent by them for this purpose. meet about 50 per cent of our requirements. Regarding price, there is an import parity price; the same price is charged.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am afraid I have to disappoint other Members because we have done only three questions so far. We pass on to the next question.

REHABILITATION GRANT TO MADHYA PRADESH DR. MONO MOHAN DAS: There are *809. THAKUR BHANU PRATAP certain items of expenditure which will be SINGH: Will the Minister of REHA- incurred by the Madhya Pradesh Government BILITATION be pleased to state: according to the scheduled rates fixed by the (a) whether Government have sanc Central Government. For this no previous tioned any further grant to the Gov sanction is necessary. There are other items ernment of Madhya Pradesh for for which previous sanction of the Central giving relief to new migrants from Government is necessary. For the information East Pakistan during the period from of the hon. Member I may tell him that the May to July, 1965; and Madhya Pradesh Government has incurred,

(b) if so, what is the quantum of during the last few months of 1965, i.e., from the grant? April to July, an expenditure of Rs. 18,32,650 and this sum will have to be paid by the Cen- THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE tral Government to the Madhya Pradesh MINISTRY OF REHABILITATION (DR. Government. Up till now we have sanctioned MONO MOHAN DAS): (a) and (b) Yes, Sir, only Rs. 1,99,270 to that Government. a sum of Rs. 1,99,270 has "been sanctioned during the period to the Madhya Pradesh SHRI B. K. GAIKWAD: May I know, Sir, Government for certain specific relief the number of migrants on whom the schemes pertaining to temporary Government has spent this much amount accommodation, water supply arrangements etc. This amount is in addition to expenditure on accommodation, clothing, blankets, DR. MONO MOHAN DAS: At present the utensils, cash doles and other relief items total number of migrant families that are in which the State Government were authorised the different camps is 5,119 and the number to incur for the new migrants in camps run by of persons in these families is 22,186. them.

THAKUR BHANU PRATAP SINGH: May I know, Sir, which 5361 Oral Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5362 SHRI A. D. MANI: The Minister stated Government that the drift of students to just now that the Madhya Pradesh University courses, particularly in the Ar,ts and Government has spent about Rs. 18 lakhs and Commerce courses, should be checked to the has sanctioned only improve the ■ quality of higher education in Rs. 1 lakh. Now, would he be in a position to India; and explain why the entire amount has not been paid to the Madhya Pradesh Government, (b) if so, the reactions of Govern-| ment to where there is no question of sanction coming the said proposal? in? Is it a question of scrutinising the accounts or computing th^ expenditure incurred by the THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE Madhya Pradesh Government? MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI BHAKT DARSHAN): (a) In its DR. MONO MOHAN DAS: I have already Memorandum on the Fourth Five Year Plan, said that there are certain items, e.g., payment the Planning Commission has stressed the of cash doles, providing clothing, blankets, need for provision at the post-matric and etc. These are incurred by the State Gov- university stage for diverting students to ernments in accordance with our standing vocational courses and increased emphasis on instructions and no separate specific sanction Science and all honours courses, postgraduate is necessary for that. There are cei'tain other studies and research, to improve the quality of items for which sanction is necessary. Now, higher education in India. the State Government at first incurs the expenditure and later we pay the bill. We (b) In formulating programmes for the return the money. development of higher education during the Fourth Plan period, efforts ana being made by SHRI DAYALDAS KURRE- May I know, Government to give effect to the suggestions Sir, what are the items for which the further made by the Planning Commission. grants may foe utilised by the new migrants? DR. MONO MOHAN DAS: I' have said SHRI A. D. MANI-. According to the that there are two types of expenditure Memorandum, which was submit- incurred by the State Governments. For 1 ted by the Planning Commission, the example, there are certain items like cash enrolment of students in colleges would be doles, clothing, blankets, etc. for which no raised from l'l lakhs by the previous sanction of the Central Ministry is J end of the Third Plan to 16 lakhs by required. There are certain other items for I the end of the Fourth Plan. Has the Planning which it is required, for example, expenditure Commission argued that there is a on police stations, construction of godowns, considerable measure of educate^ etc. in the relief camps, then construction of unemployment in the country and, therefore, hutments and in some camps water supply there should be no arrangements. Then, certain discretionary | rush for admission to colleges? grant is also given to the State Governments for expenditure. SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: We have now DRIFT OF STUDENTS TO UNIVERSITY accepted as a policy that there ! should be a COURSES stricter test for admission to colleges. I agree with my hon. friend that the number of entrants *810. SHRI A. D MANI; Will the Minister to colleges is increasing, which adds to the of EDUCATION.be pleased to state: number of educated unemployed, and, therefore, (a) whether it is a fact that the Planning we have various schemes for preventing a large Commission has proposed to number of students from going into colleges. That does not mean that we are going to deny them higher education. We are going to diversify cour- 5363 Oral Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions, 5364 ses in the secondary schools, have more cnilej • that these junior technical schools, have correspondence restrictions have meant, in fact, denial of courses and' have evening colleges, so that higher education of any type to a large number the number of students getting full collegiate of students? education should be reduced. SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: With great respect SHRI A. D. MANI: The Planning to my learned friend, the assumption Commission seems to have recommended to underlying his question is wrong. As I said, it the Government that an autonomous the duty of the State to give higher education organisation should be set up to provide to everyone who needs it. The question is scholarships and fellowships under the Fourth what type of education should be given. If Plan for capable students. What are the Gov- everybody goes to an arts college and gets ernment's reactions to the proposal of the merely a degree, you add to the number of the Planning Commission? unemployed. Therefore, we are trying to reorganise our courses so that there should be SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: We have a large less unemployment and everybody finds a job. number of scholarship schemes just at present being administered by the Ministry and I do MR. CHAIRMAN: Prof. Satyavrata not think any dissatisfaction has been Siddhantalankar. expressed with regard to the manner or the mode of administration, but we will certainly SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Sir, . . . give careful consideration to the suggestion of the Planning Commission. We have not taken MR. CHAIRMAN: Before you put your any decision on it. second supplementary, there are other Members who have not put even one. SHRI A. D. MANI: The Minister just now said about the educated unemployed. That PROF. SATYAVRATA SIDDHANT- was the substance of my question. May 1 ask ALANKAR: Is it not a fact that the standards him whether there are quite a large number of in the universities are falling due to the fact people who have taken technical and that thirty per cent of the time of the student is scientific courses and who are unemployed at taken up in acquiring knowledge of a language the present time? which is not his own and consequently the student has to spend most of his time in SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: We are trying now acquiring knowledge of the language and not to work out a better manpower system. W<3 knowledge proper? If that is the reason, then are trying to find out how many people would would it be proper to allow a vast number of need what type of jobs and prepare our students to enter universities, when they are courses accordingly. desirous of entering them?

SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Is it not a fact that SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: I agree with my according to a report published by the CSIR it is hon. friend tnat the standards of higher revealed that one-third of the finished engineers education are falling, but there are various are unemployed in the country. In view of this ca'uses and certainly one of the causes as fact, not only there are no avenues for other mentioned by the hon. Member, is that the types of education for our boys and girls, but medium of instruction in schools is the also those who are educated do not get regional language or an Indian language \d employed. Now, in such a situation, how does when the student has to switch over to the Government propose to solve it merely by English, difficulties arise. That is why in restricting admission to I many States now intensive 5365 Oral Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 5366 teaching in English is given before 1 the our country is passing ,and the dangers which student starts his collegiate course. are being faced by the country, is the Government considering to change the SHRI ARJUN ARORA: May I know if the present educational system and to have it attention of the Government has been drawn more defence-oriented? to an imbalance which has developed in education the result of which is that the best SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: Yes, Sir, I think we students are not studying humanities? If so, should pay special attention to the question of may I know whether the Government will, defence, and I think our young men and during the Fourth Plan period, take some steps young women always respond to the call of to encourage the study of humanities? the country. But as far as military training is concerned we are introducing special military SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: Yes, Sir, I am courses in some of the universities. conscious of the fact that almost 60 to 70 per cent of our students want to take science SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The hon. courses. Even girls now want to study science. Minister said that they recognise the duty. In a sense it is a good thing. But we must not What I say is that the duty is recognised by forget the fact that humanities are also important them but it is not performed. In view of the and we must try to have, what shall I say, a fact that poverty rules over a' large number of proper adjustment between humanities and talented students, if you improve education sciences. I think it is a bad thing for India if we without corresponding arrangements which forget the study of humanities. We have certain are not in existence, it means denial of principles i and ideals to which we must adhere. education to a large number of them. In view of this may I know whether he has held any SHRI D. THENGARI While diverting consultations with the university and other students to vocational courses, is it proposed authorities in order to evolve a plan which to introduce aptitude test? would ensure that talent does not get shut out" simply because it has not the money, and SHRI M. C. CHAGLA.: Yes, Sir, we will secondly also that those who are not allowed certainly apply the aptitude test, if possible. studies in humanities are given alternative education in science and technology? SHRI SANTOKH SINGH: Many students are destined to shine after their SHRI M. C. CHAGLA; I may tell my hon. Higher Secondary Examination. | May be by friend that I was recently in Calcutta' and I sheer luck they did not do i well in one discussed this question with the educational particular examination. 1 But why should authorities there. As far as Delhi is concerned they foe denied the opportunity of exhibiting we have now decided that instead of building themselves in life by the sheer process of elimi- new colleges—because the rush of students is nation through the alleged strong test? so great—we should utilise the existing colleges by having two shifts, morning and SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: The whole idea afternoon, and thereby meet the problem of should be that you must discover talent and new students. give full opportunity for talent to develop itself. That is the line we are following. It is SHRI B. K. P. SINHA: A nation's power is not easy but we are doing our best. based on development and development is SHRI M. M. DHARIA: In view of j the based mainly today on science education may most critical phase through which I I know if Government realises this and Govern- 5367 Oral Answers [ RAJYA SABHA] to Questions 536% ment would make no endeavours to check the SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: I think the drift of students towards science? One of the University Grants Commission report or some basic defects of Indian education is lack of report I have seen has given the figures. I integration between our development needs have not got them here. and our educational system, and Boys of their own volition are taking to science and SHRIMATI JAHANARA JAIPAL removing this maladjustment. Why should SINGH: Will the hon. Minister consider Government feel worried? Because in my withdrawing the words "even girls take to opinion the study of humanities in this science"? inhuman age is out of place. SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: I apologise lo the SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: My hon. friend has lady Member. I want girls to be as scientific- misunderstood my answer. I am all for minded as boys; if anything, more so. science. I think unless India becomes SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The ladies did scientific-minded, it will not become not know how to defend themselves in time. progressive. We cannot fight superstition and prejudices without science. But all that I am (Interruption) saying is that while we should attach the greatest importance to science, we must not SHRI S. K. VAISHAMPAYEN: Will the wholly overlook humanities. Minister consider making the choice by the students of a career on the basis of the aptitude test compulsory? SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: The hon. Minister will appreciate that the trend towards SHRI M. C. CHAGLA: Some aptitude test technology is partly due to the new is still being worked out in advanced requirements and partjy due to the fact that countries like the U.S.A. and the U.K. It is not those who take humanities do not get any very easy. They have all sorts of schemes. But means of getting employment. Is his Ministry to find out the real talent of a young boy or thinking of a scheme which would provide girl, I think, is the most difficult thing in the opportunities for those who distinguish world. We can only experiment. themselves in humanities as well? MR. CHAIRMAN; No further question. You have taken only fifteen minutes over this SHRI M. C: CHAGLA: As my hon. friend question. knows, in the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. and in other countries, humanities not as understood OIL REFINERY AT ERNAKULAM in the past of traditional knowledge but humanities meaning social sciences are *811. SHRIMATI DEVKI GOPIDAS: Wil assuming great importance, and we should the Minister of PETROLEUM AND certainly see that these people are employed CHEMICALS be pleased to state. in places suitable to their knowledge. (a) the factors responsible for the reported delay in the commissioning of the oil refinery PROF. B. N. PRASAD: will the Minister at Ernakulam; let us know the percentage of students in (b) whether enough electricity could be some of the advanced countries like the made available by the Government of Kerala U.S.S.R. and the USA. and even Great Britain for the successful running of this refinery who offer sciences and the percentage of when commissioned; and students who offer humanities? That will give us some idea regarding the present trend on (c) if not, what alternative arrangements education. will be made to meet the power requirements of the refinery? 5369 Oral Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5370 THE MINISTER OF PETROLEUM AND that was to be started there had been given up CHEMICALS (SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR). due to scarcity of power? (a) According to the agreement signed in April 1963, the Refinery should have been SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: No, Sir. The commissioned by November 1965 but as question is, there may be some petro- there was delay in the acquisition of the land chemical industries in that area, but which for the Refinery, construction could start only industries and at what stage, this is a matter in March 1964 and it is expected the Refinery which is under discussion with the Planning will go on stream in February/March 1966. Commission. It is unlikely that there will be any major petro-chemical complex in this (b) The Kerala Government have assured area during the Fourth Plan. that enough power will be available.

(c) Does not arise. SHRI V. C. KESAVA RAO: Is it a fact that Madras has got surplus power and may I SHRIMATI DEVAKI GOPIDAS: Even know whether it is giving any surplus to during last June the most important factory in Kerala? Kerala was experiencing difficulty due to SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: This question electricity cut. At this juncture is it possible really should be addressed to my colleague. that the Kerala State Government will be able So far as the refinery is concerned, we are to give you enough electricity to this oil assured by the Kerala Government that power refinery unless the project is completed? And will be available. no project is going to be completed by the next year. SHRI JOSEPH MATHEN: What are the reasons that led to the decision . . . SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: The Kerala Government has assured us that it has several hydro-electric projects under construction and MR. CHAIRMAN: I am afraid you have already put two questions. sufficient power will be available to start the refinery in January 1966. They have also a SHRI K. DAMODARAN: Petrochemical scheme for building a thermal 50 mega'watt industries will depend upon the availability of power station which will come info stream in naphtha. It seems that the naphtha available 1968 to supplement the power which will be will not be sufficient for the petro-chemical available from the hydro-electric installations. industries. Therefore, will the Government SHRI JOSEPH MATHEN; Is it a fact that reconsider the question of expanding the some of the industries that are to be started refinery so as to make naphtha available both with the by-products of this refinery had been for the fertilizer* factory and the petro- given up due to the reason that sufficient chemical industries? What else can you do? power was not found to be available for SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: I have stated, starting them? when I placed the Oil Policy Statement before SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: Actually we the House, that the question of the expansion are planning a very big fertilizer plant based of refineries in future will be taken up after on the naphtha available from this refinery, tak^ ing into consideration the local demand and that has not been given up. in that particular supply area and this question will be taken up at the appropriate time. SHRI JOSEPH MATHEN: Is it a fact that the petro-chemical complex SHRI SANTOKH SINGH: What is the nature of the petro-chemical complex scheme expected to be

5371 Oral Answers [RAJYA SABHA] to Question?, 5372 started there and what is going to be i the size there is any scheme to put up a refinery plant of naphtha consumption? in UP in the Fourth Plan period.

SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: I have stated SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: There is no that at the moment the only item which would proposal to put up any refinery in UP in the have to be definitely expected is the fertilizer Fourth Plan. plant. About the other plants, detailed studies SHRIMATI DEVAKI GOPIDAS: May I will have to be undertaken. I cannot give any know what are the reasons that led to the specific answer at this stage. dropping of the petrochemical complex industries there on a large scale? SHRI CD. PANDE; In view of the difficulties experienced in establishing this SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: There is no refinery and because we have already taken question of dropping it, because it was never more than one year after the target period, will accepted. the Government take steps to see that other refineries that ate under contemplation or SHRI DAYALDAS KURRE: May I know under construction do not meet with the same how many kinds of refined oil will be difficulty and that they come up in time? produced by the Ernaku-lam Refinery and the annual quantum of the different varieties? SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: My hon. friend's assumption is wrong. This refinery was to have SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: The main been completed in November, 1965. It will be products I can give. The bulk products which com- I pleted in January, 1966, which is a will be produced will be motor spirit, naphtha, difference of only 2£ months. diesel oil, kerosene and one or two other specialities. But if he asks for a detailed SHRI C. D. PANDE: Let us hope so. break-up, I ask for notice. i SHRI ARJUN ARORA: The Minister mentioned that the delay is due to difficulties in SUPPLY OF ARMS TO PERSONS IN BORDER land acquisition. May I know if the land AREAS acquisition proceedings, were taken up when the j site was selected or they were taken up SHRI RAM SINGH: t , „ J SHRI only after the agreement with the foreign 81 SHIVA NAND ] RAMAUL: (_ collaborators was signed? SHRI C. L. VARMA: SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR: Sir, I would have Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be to ask for notice for that because this matter pleased to state: would really concern the State Government. I do not know when land acquisition proceedings (a) whether Government have considered were taken up. But if he gives I notice, I shall any scheme to supply arms free of cost to get the information for him. persons living in border area's including hilly areas of Lahaul, Spiti and Kinnaur; SHRI RAMGOPAL GUPTA: The Minister made a statement that the schemes of the (b) whether any request has been different States for establishing refineries will received by concerned authorities from be taken jnto consideration. In view of this persons in the border areas in this regard; and statement, I would like to know if !The question was actually asked on the floor of the House by Shri Ram Singh. 5373 Oral Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 5374 (c) if so, what is the decision of SHRI ARJUN ARORA; Not even in the Government thereon? border areas?

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no, Shri Arora. MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L. N. MISHRA): (a) to (c) The general question SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: Is the of arming persons living in border areas has Government aware that during the war just been considered. While for obvious reasons ended our villagers in the. border areas had no weapons cannot be issued indiscriminately to arms and that they had to fight the soldiers people living in these areas, attention has been who were fully armed with modern weapons paid to the training of the people in the use of with lathis, while the inhabitants of the border weapons and for the issue of weapons to those villages in Pakistan had been fully equipped enrolled as Home Guards when they are with modern arms? called up for duty. SHRI L. N. MISHRA: I may inform the hon. Member that our people in the border SHRI RAM SINGH: Has it come to the villages were not as helpless as the hon. notice of the Government that the Himachal Member feels. They had arms, some arms Pradesh Government has issued instructions were supplied to the people living in the for getting arms licences even 'though the villages in the border States. people were used to handle arms without licences? SHRI SHIVA NAND RAMAUL: In the absence of free arms being supplied to the SHRI L. N. MISHRA: I am not aware of border people, may I know whether the the instruction of the , Sir. Government will consider the issue of But those who have not got licences, they will licences to as many people as possible in that have to surrender the arms. Otherwise, that is area? illegal.

SHRI A. D. MANI: During the present SHRI L. N. MISHRA: The issue of emergency, the Defence Ministry has been licences is a question with the State giving rifle training to the citizens at the Government. But there is no question of various centres. Is ft proposed to give issuing free arms to the people of the border compulsory rifle training for all the able- areas. bodied persons in these border areas or is it going to be purely on a voluntary basis, if any SHRI FARIDUL HAQ ANSARI: May I training is to be given in future? know whether in view of the continuing threat SHRI L. N. MISHRA: Sir, this House from China, the Government will consider the discussed the matter only two weeks ago. We advisability of training the people in the Bara had one full day's debate on the subject and Hoti area' to vise arms and also distribute the question was fully discussed. So far as the arms to them accordingly? training part is concerned, I am not aw?"> of the training being giv?r? by the Defence SHRI L. N. MISHRA: I would not like to Ministry. It might b<* fhe*e. But there ig also go into details but wherever necessary, the n Civil Rifle Training Scheme launched by people are being given training. the Mmistry of Home Affairs, and we are encouraging that scheme. But about SHRI I. K. GUJRAL: The hon. Minister compulsory training, it is not possible, even has just referred to the debate in this House— physically, at the moment. two weeks ago on this subject. May I ask him 748 RS—2. whether as a result of the debate and the recommendation from all the parties, 5375 Oral Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions, 5376 the Government has come to any definite THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE conclusions so far as arming the civil MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI population in the border areas is concerned? JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) Yes, Sir. (b) and (c) A statement is laid on the Table SHRI L. N. MISHRA: I explained in my speech what we were going to do, and we are of the House. acting according to our programme. STATEMENT SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: In view of the fact that on previous occasions when steps The Committee on Excise and Taxation have been taken to give training, the facilities appointed by the Northern have been abused by the authorities recommended inter alia in the reports of its concerned, do we have any assurance that in first two meetings that the sales tax on the future when the people are armed, it would be following commodities should be levied at done properly if it is to be done and secondly approximately uniform rates throughout the that there will not be any abuse of such things, Northern Zone: — that is to say, against legitimate movements 1. Paper; and so on? 2. Yarn; SHRI L, N. MISHRA: We are very >3. Leather; cautious in arming people and that is why we do not want to arm people indiscriminately, 4. Wool including raw wool; and we are aware of the many elements, 5. Metals; specially the undesirable elements, in political 6. Edible oils; patties which would want to take advantage of 7. Raw hides and skins; the training scheme. 8. Timber; PANDIT S. S. N. TANKHA: Has any of 9. Petroleum products. the States in the border areas decided to arm the population there? The recommendations of the Committee were SHRI L. N. MISHRA: As such they are not approved by the Northern Zonal Council at its meeting held on the 12th November, 1964. A armed. Sir. But I might refer to the statement. summary of these recommendations forms As it is, they do arm quite a number of part of the proceedings of that meeting, copies people.. of which have been placed in the Parliament Library. The Council at its last meeting held UNIFORM SALES TAX on the 1st and 2nd July 1965 reviewed the progress of implementation of the ♦813. SHRI SITARAM JAIPURIA: Will recommendations and recommended that they the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased should be implemented by the 1st October to state: 1965. It would be for the Governments of the (a) whether it is a fact that the Committee member States of the Zone to take further on Excise and Taxation of the North Zonal action in the matter. Council recommended uniformity of sales tax on certain commodities; 2. The Committee has submitted a further report covering certain other items, which has (b) if so, what are the names of the still to be considered by the Council. commodities recommended for the purpose; and SHRI SITARAM JAIPURIA: In the (c) when this recommendation is likely to statement it has been mentioned that the be given effect to? decision has been approved 5377 ShoH Notice j [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Questions and Answer 5378 by the Northern Zonal Council at its meeting (c) if the reply to part (b) above be in the held on 12th November, 1964 and further that affirmative, what action Government have it would be for the Governments of the taken in the matter? member States of the Zone to take further action in the matter. May I know if the Gov- THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE ernment have ascertained the views of the MINISTRY OF LAW (SHRI JAGANATH member States in this connection? RAO): (a) Yes. Government have communicated their displeasure at the SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI: Yes, yes. irregularities found to have been committed by the previous Manager of the Bhawan and SHRI SITARAM JAIPURIA: When are adversely commented upon by the Central they going to put them into effect? Vigilance Commission. Government have also instructed the Khadi Commission not to SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI: We have give any further extension of service to Shri ascertained the views of the member States, Tandon who attains the age of sixty on 5th we have ascertained the views of the Delhi October, 1965. people also . . . (b) Yes. The services of a worker of the MR. CHAIRMAN: The Question Hour is Bhawan were terminated by the former over. Manager of the Bhawan, On a representation from the Khadi Gramodyog Bhawan Workers' Union the matter was referred to the con- ciliation Officer for arbitration. After SHORT NOTICE QUESTION AND investigations, he recommended the ANSWER reinstatement of the worker and latter was accordingly reinstated ia service. ACTION TAKEN AGAINST FORMER MANAGER (c) The Khadi Bhawan is an esta- OF KHADI GRAMODYOG BHAVAN, NEW blishment under the control of the Khadi and DELHI Village Industries Commission which is an f SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: t I SHRI R. autonomous body. The question of the S. KHANDEKAR: 4. { SHRI CHANDRA Government taking any action in the matter, SHEKHAR: I DR. M. M. S. SIDDHU: [_ therefore, does not arise. SHRI L. D. ASTHANA: SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: May I know, Will the Minister of SOCIAL SECURITY Sir, from the hon. Deputy Minister whether it be pleased to state: is a fact that the ex-Manager of the Khadi Gramodyog Bhawan was given a promotion (a) whether Government have taken any against the specific advice of the Minister? action on the recommendation made by the Central Vigilance Commissioner against the SHRI JAGANATH RAO: It is not exactly former Manager of the Khadi Gramodyog a promotion. He was appoint-ted as Director- Bhawan, New Delhi; in-Charge of Sales. Of course, the post carries higher pay. This was done before the report of • (b) whether Government have received any the Central Vigilance Commission was reports of the dismissal or suspension of received. workers by the former Manager; and SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: May I know, fThe question was actually asked on the Sir, whether it is a fact that the Deputy floor of the House by Shri M. P. Bhsrgava. Minister himself advised the workers not to agitate in view of 5379 Short Notice [RAJYA SABHA] Questions and Answer 5380 the emergency and the result was that some These were considered by the Central morf,' workers were dismissed or suspended Vigilance Commission as irregularities and he by the present Manager even after the advice was warned. of the Deputy Minister? SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Sir, I may SHRI JAGANATH RAO: This question very humbly request you to allow me to ask relates to the suspension by the former two or three questions because the hon. Manager. The former Manager . . . Minister has said that he was only given a warning. I should like to remind the Minister SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: In part (b) of that on the' 23rd November, 1964 in reply to my question I have read "present Manager": my question the hon. Minister for Social Security said that "these allegations are not "whether Government have received any only simple, but they are serious. They are so reports of the dismissal or suspension of serious that I think it was necessary that a workers by the present Manager;" proper enquiry should be made into the whole matter." Again on the 10th May 1965 the SHRI JAGANATH RAO: It says "former Minister of Social Security said in this House Manager". that the Commission promoted the former honourable Manager in spite of the advice SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: It is a given by the Social Security Minister. He had misprint. said that since the allegations were rather serious, it was considered on behalf of the MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Khandekar. Ministry that they should be properly enquired into and the Ministry directed that the matter SHRI JAGANATH RAO: Sir, if you allow should be sent to the Central Vigilance me, I have no objection to answer. Commission anrl the matter was under enquiry by the Central Vigilance Commissioner. SHRI R. S. KHANDEKAR: May I know, Sir, what was the nature of irregularities MR. CHAIRMAN: These are the facts of committed by the former Manager of the the dispute. Khadi Gramodyog Bhawan, and was there any misappropriation or something like that, SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: I read this and whether he had misbehaved with the staff only because on that very day I had said that of the Khadi Gramodyog Bhawan; if so, what the Manager had approaches to the higher action was taken? Why was he given people in the Ministry and the Vigilance promotion in spite of these irregularities? Commission wrote a letter to the Union, saying that no enquiry would be made. The SHRI JAGANATH RAO: The allegations hon. Minister said that he had warned the against the former Manager were: Manager. I shall like to know on what basis (i) thut he gave tailoring work to his own the Central Vigilance Commission did not wife, of course, at the usual rate at make enquiry into the matter. which other workers are giveri; SHRI JAGANATH RAO: What the hon. Member has said is correct. The Ministry felt (ii) that he was using office transport for that the irregularities said to have been private purposes; and committed by the former Manager were really (iii) that he was taking advances without serious. Therefore, the matter was referred to- proper authorisation. the Central Vigilance Commission. But the Central Vigilance Commis- 5381 Short Notice [RAJYA SABHA] Questions and Answer 5382 vouchers and all the documents were produced. The hon. Minister is in personal sioner found that they are irregularities. No know of all these facts. In spite of this the mala fides were attributed to him. Therefore, Manager' is being protected. He is directing we have to accept the findings of the Central his whole operations against the workers of Vigilance Commissioner. the Khadi Gramodyog Union. Nine workers have been suspended in spite of the advice SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR; Mr. given by the hon. Deputy Minister. Chairman,, the Central Vigilance Com- missioner said in a letter addressed to the MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the question? workers' Union that: — SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: I shall like "In view of the fact that since a to know what are the influences that are competent authority has already taken a working upon the Ministry in order to final decision on the basis of two enquiries safeguard the former Manager and also the made earlier into the allegations against present Manager who is working under his Shri Tandon, no further action seems to be guidance? necessary in this case." MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you like to say It means the Central Vigilance Com-missipner something? did not enquire into the matter at all and the Minister says that the Vigilance Commission SHRI JAGANATH RAO: I have no came to the conclusion that he should be personal knowledge as pointed out by the warned and no action is necessary against hon. Member. I get the knowledge from the him. reports that the Ministry receives. No personal influence was exercised either over SHRI JAGANATH RAO: That is the me or over my senior Minister. finding of the Central Vigilance SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: May I Commissioner. know, Sir, if it is not a fact that after the Pakistani aggression the workers of the Khadi SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: This is not Gramodyog Bhawan wrote about their case to the finding. the hon. Deputy Minister for which he wants notice. He advised the workers to withdraw SHRI JAGANATH RAO: He said all agitations. On his advice they withdrew all "'irregularities" and no further action need be agitations. In spite of their withdrawing the taken. However, the Ministry was not agitation, nine workers have been suspended. satisfied with the finding. The Ministry was The Khadi and Village Industries not really satisfied with the finding of the Commission and the Government are quite Central Vigilance Commissioner. So in this helpless to give any help to these workers. matter we advised the Khadi and Village Industries Commission to retire the Manager MR. CHAIRMAN: You are making on the 5th October, 1965 when he attains the statement after statement without putting a age of 60. That is all we could do. question.

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: Mr. SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: My Chairman, I am sorry that the Minister should question is whether it is not a fact that the reply in this way. There were specific charges workers wrote to the Ministry that they were of misappropriation, fraudulent acts and being harassed and documentary proof submitted to the Ministry, and on that basis the Minister referred the matter to the Central Vigilance Com- missioner. Photostat copies of all the 5383 Short Notice [ RAJYA ABHA ] Questions and Answer 5384 he advised the workers to wi.hdraw the matter and when the Governent thinks that the agitation and they withdrew the agitation on charges are serious and the Minister his advice. In spite of that nine workers have concerned thinks the charges are serious, why been suspended and Government have not the Government did not refer the matter to the done anything to take up their case. C.B.I, for for fresh investigation into the allegations and charges, leaving it to the SHRI JAGANATH RAO: That is a Government and Parliament to decide how the separate matter. The suspension was ordered matter should be dealt with and what by the present Manager, Mr. Bhatnagar. The punishment should be meted out? Government is in the know of these things and we are taking action. SHRI JAGANATH RAO: The Central Vigilance Commissioner is a SHRI RAJENDRA PRATAP very responsible authority and the SINHA: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend, Mr. Government decided to accept his Chandra Shekhar has pointed out that certain findings. specific allegations of misappropriation of funds were made on the basis of which pro- SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: His finding is bably this investigation was started. I would not there . . . like to know whether the Central Vigilance Commission has taken into account the SHRI JAGANATH RAO: Even then we specific charges of misappropriation referred have advised the Khadi and Village Industries to by my hon. friend; and, if so, whether he Commission not to give extension and to has exonerated the man concerned from these retire him from 5th October. specific charges of misappropriation, and if not, then how is it that no action is being SHRIMATI TARA RAMCHANDRA taken on this misappropriation of funds? SATHE: As the hon. Member has referred to the Union, may I know whether it is not a fact SHRI JAGANATH RAO: I have only seen that the employees of the Bhawan had the report of the Central Vigilance indulged in rowdy demonstrations, display of Commissioner and what was in the report I ugly and inflamatory posters and defamatory have already stated. slogans not only outside but also inside the premises several times a day during the SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The Minister working hours and that Shri Chhoteylal said earlier, which has been quoted by Shri assaulted the present Manager, Mr. Bhatnagar, Chandra Shekhar here, that according to the and the Union did not furnish the strength of Minister the charges were rather serious and their membership? Was not all this against the he used the word 'serious' also which is why Code of Discipline in the industry? the matter was referred to the Vigilance Commissioner for investigation. The SHRI JAGANATH RAO: The hon. Vigilance Commissioner is not the authority Member is correct. to pronounce judgment and punishment. From what Mr. Chandra Shekhar has read out it is SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: On a point quite clear that the Vigilance Commissioner of order. The point of order is, when I asked did not hold any enquiry into the matter in the about the present labour trouble, the Minister belief that some action had been taken. said that the question relates only to the ex- Therefore may I know in such a situation, on Manager but when the Lady Member asked the basis of this letter to the Union of about the workers' agitation, he replies that all Workers, he had stated that he had not this allegation is correct. Then he refused to enquired into the reply. If you allow one question on that point, 5385 Written Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5386 I must be allowed to ask the question . . . (b) if so, what is the amount so Utilised during the last three years? MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyhow, I will not allow you. You have already been allowed THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL four questions. AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR: But he has HAJARNAVIS): (a) Collections made during made a statement which is quite baseless and the years 1962 and 1963 were invested in the which is without any basis. The workers have Defence Bonds because of the National behaved very well. Emergency. The scheme of assistance has commenced out of he collections made after SHRI G. MURAHARI: In view of the fact 4th September, 1964. that it is clear from the answer given by the Minister that a proper enquiry has not been (b) A sum of Rs. 1.47 lacs has been spent held into the whole matter and that the as financial assistance to teachers during the Vigilance Commissioner has only produced a period 4.9.64 to 31.3.65 in 7 States/Union report which said that certain action has Territories. already been taken by some other Department, I would like to know from the AGE LIMIT FOR POST GRADUATE TEACHERS Government whether they propose to have a POSTS IN DELHI. fresh enquiry and take action against. this Manager and I would also demand of you that •815. SHRI JAGAT NARAIN: Will the in view of the faulty answers that are given in Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: this House, this House should be given an (a) whether it is a fact that the maximum opportunity to discuss this whole thing in a age limit for candidates for the posts of Post- half-an-hour discussion. Graduate teachers from outside quota is 30 MR. CHAIRMAN; I will not do that. years in the Directorate of Education, Delhi- (b) if so, whether it is a fact that the SHRI JAGANATH RAO: There departmental candidates with higher must be finality at some stage or other. qualifications are not given any relaxation in We referred to the Central Vigi age-limit for the said posts; lance Commissioner and he gave his (c) whether it is a fact that age finding and the Government have ac concession is given to departmental cepted the findings. Still we were candidates with higher qualifications not satisfied and so we advised that ■ for filling up certain vacancies in the Central this gentleman must be retired from Government; and 5th October. (d) if the answer to part (c) above ' be in the affirmative, the reasons for which the departmental candidates with higher qualifications working in the Directorate of Education, Delhi, WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS are not given any age concession for filling up the posts of Post-Graduate TEACHERS' DAY COLLECTIONS teachers? •814. SHRI DEOKINANDAN NARAYAN: Will the Minister of THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL EDUCATION be pleased to state: AFFAIRS (SHRI R. M. HAJARNAVIS): (a) Yes, Sir. (a) whether the funds collected on Teachers' Day since 1962 have been utilised (b) They get relaxation when they are for granting assistance to teachers in the promoted to the higher grade but country; and 5387 Written Answers [ RAJYA SABHA] to Questions 5388

no relaxation is given in the direct (b) Five of these officers went on recruitment quota. official delegations, none for study purposes and four for other purposes; (c) and (d) A statement containing the requisite information is laid on the Table of (c) A statement is laid on the Table the Sabha. of the House.

STATEMENT STATEMENT In the case of direct recruitment to clasp III posts under the Government of India the Amount of Rupees departmental candidates from amongst class III equivalent staff are not allowed any age concession when Name of the Officer of foreign they are considered along with the nominees of exchange Employment Exchange. This position is also involved applicable to persons holding class I and II posts when they compete for other class I and II posts in the direct recruitment quota, unless Rs. a relaxation in regard to age in the case of 1. Shri A. R. Deshpande, 108 • 11 departmental candidates competing for the Adviser (Social Education) vacancies in the direct recruitment quota is actually provided in the recruitment rules of 2. Miss S. Rehman, Assis- 200-00 those posts. tant Educational Adviser 3. Mrs. Sharda Rao, Assis- 505-08 In the Recruitment Rules for the post of Post tant Educational Adviser Graduate teachers under the Directorate of 4. Shri L. S. Chandrakant, Nil Education, Delhi, age prescribed for the direct Deputy Educational Adviser (T) recruits does not apply in the case of promo- 5. Shri G. K. Charidiramani, Nil tees. Joint Educational Adviser (T) 6. Shri N. M. Ketkar, Lib- 200-00 OFFICERS OF THE EDUCATION MINISTRY rarian, Central Secretariat GOING ABROAD Library, New Delhi *816: SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: Will the 7. Shri B. N. Malhan, De- 2,798-76* puty Secretary-General, Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: Indian National Commission for UNESCO (a) the number of officers in his Ministry who visited foreign countries during 1963- 8. Shri P. N. Kirpal, Secre- 571-65 64; tary. Ministry of Education 9. Shri A. N. Dhawan, Edu- 747'05 (b) the number out of them who went on cation Officer official delegations and study purposes in each case; and ♦This excludes foreign exenange ior personal use against his own money. (c) the amount of foreign exchange involved in each case? HINDI BOOKS IN THE CENTRAL SECRETARIAT THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL LIBRARY AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. HAJAR-NAVIS): *817. SHRI DAYALDAS KURRE: Will (a) The number of officers of the Ministry the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to proper who visited foreign countries during state: 1963-64 is nine; (a) what is the annual expenditure incurred for the purchase of Hindi Books for the Central Secretariat Library; and 5389 Written Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 3390 (b) what is the percentage spent for Hindi (Western Nimar, Madhya Pradesh) Books out of the total ex- j penditure incurred constructed on the banks of the river on all type of 1 books, kept in that Narmada, a protected place?] Library?

THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. HAJAR- NAVIS): (a) Rs. 3,193-00 for books, excluding periodicals.

(b) 5 per cent. f [THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. HAJAR- NAVTS): (a) Yes, Sir. (b) No, Sir.]

IMAGES OF GODS AND GODDESSES AT PONDICHERRY

*819. SHRI J. S. PILLAI: Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to state: (a) whether there are any stone images of Gods and Goddesses of Hindu Pantheon in the park and near the old pier at Pondieherry) and (b) if so, from which temple they were taken away by Dupleix and his successors?

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) Yes, Sir.

f [MAHESHWAR GHATS IN MADHYA (b) No records are available to give PRADESH authentic information in this respect.

♦818. SHRI GURUDEV GUPTA: POST-GRADUATE RESEARCH FELLOWS 'Will the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: f SHRI D. L. SEN GUPTA: J SHRI D. THENGARI: 82°- ^ SHRI JAGAT (a) whether it is a fact that some NARAIN: archaeological material was recently found at L SHRI LOKANATH MISRA: the site of Maheshwar in the Western Nimar Will the Minister of EDUCATION be District of Madhya Pradesh during the pleased to state: excavations carried out by the M.S. University, Baroda and the Deccan College (a) whether it is a fact that the Post- Post-graduate and Research Institute, Poona; graduate Research fellows do not complete and their thesis during the period of their research fellowship allowed (b) if so, whether there is any proposal under Government's consideration to declare the Maheshwar Ghats

† [ ] English translation. 5391 Written Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 5392 by the University Grants Commission; and consumption of Petrol and Diesel Oil; (b) if so, what are the reasons therefor? and THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINISTERY OF EDUCATION (SHRI (b) if so, whether his Ministry has examined BHAKT DARSHAN): (a) and (b) Normally, the results obtained by this scientist? the Post-graduate Research Fellows complete their thesis during tlte period of their research fellowships. In some cases, however, the THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE completion of the thesis is delayed on account MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRIMATI of wide scope of research projects, collection SOUNDARAM RAMACHANDRAN): (a) of source material, sifting of data and and (b) A person named Shri Uttam Chand verification of experimental data in science Nanda of Gurdaspur has written to the Indian subjects. Institute of Petroleum, Dehra Dun, that he has TEACHERS IN RAMJAS SCHOOLS IN DELHI developed a chemical which can reduce the consumption of Petrol, Diesel and Kerosene ♦821. SHRI ABDUL GHANI: Will the Oils from 33% to 38% in internal combustion Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: engines at a nominal cost and is prepared to (a) whether Government have recently give preliminary tests. The Director of the receive^ a representation from-the teachers Institute-has invited Shri Uttam Chand Nanda working in Ramjas Schools in Delhi to the to visit the Institute alongwith samples of effect that they have not been paid their products to discuss what tests are required and increments for the last three or four years; how the same can be planned. (b) if so, the action taken on the said representation; and (c) the number of teachers affected Dy the stoppage of the increments and the reasons therefor? THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. HAJAR-NAVIS): (a) Yes, Sir. (b) The Management of the school has been asked to decide the cases expeditiously. (c) Five. The management did not find the teachers fit to cross the Efficiency Bar.

FORMULA FOR SAVING CONSUMPTION OF PETROL, ETC. ♦822. SHRI M. M. DHARIA: Will the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: (a) whether some scientist has evolved a new formula to save the

5393 Written Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 5394

t [INSTITUTION FOR THE STUDY OF ■ CENTRAL UNIVERSITY IN THE SOUTH ASTROLOGY 1 *824 SHRI Y. A. REDDY: Will the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to *823. SHRI L. N. DAS: Will the Minister state: of EDUCATION be pleased to state: (a) whether there is any proposal under (a) whether there is any proposal under Government's consideration to^ establish a Government's consideration for the Central University in South India; establishment of any institution for the study (b) if so, whether Government of Andhra and teaching of Astrology on a scientific basis Pradesh have proposed to Central or whether any grant is being given by Government for the location of such a Government to some public institution University in Andhra Pradesh; and already engaged in this work; and (c) if the answer to part (b) above be in (b) whether there is any scheme under the affirmative, the reaction of a-Government Government's consideration for editing and to the said proposal? publishing the rare books on Astrology?] THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATiON (SHRI BHAKT DARSHAN): (a) to (c) A statement is laid on the Table of the Sabha.

STATEMENT f [THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI (a) There is no proposal as such to BHAKT DARSHAN): (a) and (b) A establish a Central University in South India. statement is laid on the Table of the House. However, the Conference of State Education "Ministers held in October, 1962 and STATEMENT subsequently the Committee of Members of Parliament on Higher Education in their report (a) This Ministry have no proposal for the published in 1964 recommended the setting up establishment of an institution for the study of a Central University in each State to and teaching of Astrology. Voluntary Sanskrit promote emotional integration as well acade- Organisation who inter alio, are engaged in mic standards in the country. The University the study and teaching of astrology are, Grants Commission to whom the however, eligible for a grant under this recommendations were referred, has supporter Ministry's scheme for financial assistance to them in principle but suggested that priority Voluntary Sanskrit Organisations etc. should be given to the improvement of the existing institutions and that when sufficient (b) Even though there is no separate funds are available some of the existing scheme for editing and publishing the rare universities in different States might be taken books on astrology, there is a scheme for over and developed as Central Universities. financial asistance for editing and publication Since the question is also under the of rare manuscripts in Sanskrit, Pali, Prakrit, consideration of the Education Commission, Persian and Arabic and under the scheme decision in the matter has been deferred till competent institutions

5395 Written Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 5396 Universities set up by the University Grants the 118 Left Communists in Kerala State have Commission had recommended that six new given up their fast after having obtained universities of which one should be in Andhra 'Liberal Concession' from the Governor; and Pradesh may be established. The report of the Committee was circulated to all the State (b) if so, what are these concessions? Governments for keeping the recommendations in view while planning new THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE universities. The Government of Andhra MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI Pradesh informed the Ministry that they could JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) Yes, Sir. not think of establishing another University (b) A statement is laid on the Table of the due to National Emergency and suggested that House. the Centre might consider the desirability of starting a Central or Federal University in Andhra Pradesh wholly financed by •the STATEMENT Central Government. (c) As already stated in reply to part (a), Concessions given to the Detenus in Kerala the matter will be examined in the light of the recommendations of the Education 1. Family Allowance.—The Government Commission. have agreed to conduct fresh enquiry through Revenue Authorities on application for family •825. SHRI P. L. KUREEL URF TALIB allowance from the detenus to determine VIGILANCE OFFICER UNDER eligibility. DISTRICT JUDGE5 DELHI 2. Parole—Dependent grant parents and : Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be sisters have been included in the definition of pleased to state: family. Parole will be given expeditiously in (a) the date of appointment and functions emergent cases. of the Vigilance Officer under the District Judge, Delhi; and 3. Bus Fare to Detenus who go on Parole—Detenus in receipt of family (b) what action, if any, he has taken on allowance are paid bus fare when they go out complaints of delay in issuing copies of on parole. documents by the copying agencies? 4. Correspondence—The security THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE prisoners have been permitted to write five and MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI receive eight letters in a week and JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) No Vigilance Superintendents of Jail have been authorised to Officer has been appointed under the District give permission to detenus in suitable cases for Judge, Delhi. writing additional letters.

(b) Does not arise. 5. Interviews—Interviews are allowed for the purpose of business also in cases where FAST GIVEN UP BY LEFT COMMUNISTS IN the detenus were conducting business KERALA themselves. *826. SHRI T. V. ANANDAN: Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to 6. Clothing—The detenus are permitted to state: select the materials for their clothes. (a) whether Government's attention has 7. Chappals—Two pairs of chappalf will been drawn to a news item which appeared at be supplied. page 1 of the 'Times of India', Delhi edition, dated the 28th August, 1965 stating that all 5397 Written Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 539&'

8. Electric Fans—Fans are provided at CONTACT-MEN ENGAGED BY INDUSTRIAL Government cost. AND COMMERCIAL FIRMS

9. Newspapers and Books.—One /SHRI ARJUN ARORA; ^ \SHRI newspaper is supplied to a group of 5 detenus. P. K. KUMARAN: They are allowed to purchase all books, periodicals and newspapers which are in Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be lawful circulation; this does not include party pleased to state: literature. (a) whether Government have compiled any list of contact-men engaged by industrial IiroiAN INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY, NEW and commercial firms in New Delhi; DELHI (b) if so, whether any facilities are given to them to maintain liaison between industry *827. SHRI LILA DHAR BAROOAH: Will and Government; and the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state; (c) whether the list has been circulated to the departments concerned? (a) whether it is a fact that the results of the first year supplementary examination of THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE the Indian Institute of Technology, Hauz MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI Khas, New Delhi, were modified one month JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) No, Sir; lists of after these were originally declared; accredited representatives have not been prepared but lists of only undesirable contact- (b) if so, the reasons therefor; and men have been prepared. i (b) Attention is invited to the Press (c) the number of students who release issued on 5th September, 1965. A had originally failed and the number copy of the Press release is laid on the Table out of them who were declared suc of the House. cessful after the results were so modified? (c) In view of the reply to part (a), this does not arise. THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESS RELEASE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI BHAKT DARSHAN): (a) Yes, Sir. PRESS INFORMATION BUREAU (b) According to the Examination GOVERNMENT OF INDIA Regulations of the Institute, a student 65 can apply for scrutiny of his script within 15 days of the announcement Accreditation of Representatives of of the result. On the basis of the Business Houses—Government's representation received from some decision announced students, answer scripts were scruti nised and discrepancies were found New Delhi, Bhadra 14, 1887 in respect of three students. September" 5, 196~5

(c) 23 students originally failed. The Government of India's decision; on the Out of these, 3 students were declar- j Santhanam Committee's recommendations in regard to the accreditation of representatives ed successful after scrutiny of the : answer scripts, of firms; has been announced.

*828. [Transferred to the 22nd September. 1965.]

5399 Written Answers [RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 540° The number of representatives accredited firm or the applicant himself ap- for each firm would be restricted to the proaching the authorities minimum and if a firm desires to have more Business houses, firms, etc., will have to than one person as accredited representative submit applications for accreditation to the special permission will have to be obtained. Ministry or Department with which their business was mainly concerned. The The Ministry with which a firm Jiad its main dealings will be the Ministry for granting applications should contain information accreditation. The firm will be asked to give a relating to the name and address of the appli- declaration that it had not applied for re- cant, name and designation of representative in icognition of their representatives to .any other whose favour accre-diation is sought, name of Ministry. On the strength ■of the accreditation Ministry or Department with which . by the main Ministry, representatives of the accrediation is sought names of representatives and designation of representatives who had firm would be permitted tD see officers of ■other Ministries also without having to already been accredited or who had been obtain separate accreditation. provided with regular passes for entry within the security zone and particulars of the No restrictions would be placed on the representatives in whose favour accreditation proprietor -manager or the Resi->dent was sought, such as whether he was a whole- Director of a firm from meeting •officers. time employee. Applications with these parti- culars may be sent to the Ministry with which The persons, including whole-time the firm has its main work on plain paper or on ■employees of the firm, working as application forms to be obtained on request representatives will have to produce a letter of from the Ministry or Department concerned. authority from the firm they are representing. CHARGES AGAINST I.G. POLICE, ANDHRA Accreditation is not considered m'ecessary PRADESH in respect of the offices of the DGS&D., CPWD., and Chief Controller of Imports and *830. SHRI MULKA GOVINDA Exports, where the existing arrangements are REDDY: Will the Minister of HOME adequate. AFFAIRS be pleased to state: (a) whether he received a letter on or The Union Home Ministry has issued about the 24th July, 1964 from a Member of instructions to various Ministries and the Andhra Pradesh Legislative Council departments to implement these decisions. complaining against the Inspector General of The Santhanam Committee had re- Police, Andhra Pradesh, of some corrupt commended that no official should have any practices and acts of misdemeanour; and dealings with a person claiming to act on (b) whether any inquiry or investigation behalf of a business or industrial house or an was conducted by some officer of the Union individual , unless he was properly accredited Government in connection with these charges; and was approved by the department and, if so, what was the result of the inquiry? concerned. The Committee felt that such a procedure would keep out persons with THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE unsavoury antecedents or reputation. The MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) Yes, Sir. Committee also recommended that there should be no restriction on the proprietor «or (b) No, Sir. The complaint was forwarded manager or top executive of the to the State Government 54O1 Written Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5402

for disposal, who, in the absence of any THE MINISTER OF STATE IN definite proof, considered that i further THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS action was not necessary. (SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) i No such fact has specifically come to MAPS OF ASSAM OIL AREAS the notice of Government.

/ SHRI P. CHETIA: Mi\SHRI (b) Does not arise. ARJUN ARORA: Will the Minister of PETROLEUM AND MEMORANDUM AGAINST I.G. POLICE, CHEMICALS be pleased to state: ORISSA (a) whether maps relating to the oil areas of Assam discovered by the Oil and Natural f SHRI EBRAHIM •833.-^ Gas Commission have been prepared by SULAIMAN SAIT: their experts; [SHRI LOKANATH MISRA: (b) if so, how many copies of such maps Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be have been prepared and kept in the O.N.G.C. pleased to state: office at Sibsagar (Assam); and (a) whether it is a fact that he has (c) whether the maps are treated as secret received a copy of the memorandum documents in view of their importance? submitted) to President by some Members of THE MINISTER OF PETROLEUM AND Parliament against the Inspector General 0f CHEMICALS (SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR): Police, Orissa; and (a) to (c) Yes, Sir. Various geological and geophysical jnaps and sections have been (b) if so, what action is proposed to be taken in the matter? prepared from time to time but as they have to be handled by a large number of persons they cannot be treated as secret maps. For this THE MINISTER OF STATE IN reason, their main emphasis is on subsurface THE'MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS geological features and they give only the (SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) A minimum topographical features. No separate memorandum signed by one Member of record of maps issued to various individuals Parliament was received on 22nd July, 1965. and sections since the beginning of the Commission's work in 1956 has been (b) Comments of the State Government maintained. have been called for and the same are still awaited. REFUSAL BY GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES TO GO TO NEFA *834. [Transferred to the 22nd September, 1965.] •832. SHRI R. N. KAKATI: Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to state: (a) whether it is a fact that Central Government employees posted to NEFA either resign their posts or go there reluctantly; and (b) if so, whether his Ministry proposes to give any advice to the various Ministries in this regard?

† Postponed from the 17th September, 1965. 5403 Written Answers [RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 5404

t [PENDING CASES BEFORE SUPREME no proposal under consideration at present to COURT extend the concession to-all classes of Central Government employees *435. SHRI RAM SAHAI: Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to (b) Does not arise. state the number of cases which have been pending before the Supreme Court for more (c) The existing leave travel concessions than five years as on the 1st August, 1965 and which are based on the recommendations of the number of civil and criminal cases the Second Pay Commission are considered respectively among them?] adequate.

TEACHERS IN RAMJAS SCHOOLS IN DELHI

828. SHRI ABDUL GHANI: Will the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state:

(a) whether Government are aware of the fact that teachers working in Ramjas Schools f[THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE in Delhi have not been paid the arrears of MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI dearness allowance sanctioned in March, JAISUKHLAL HATHI): The number of cases 1965; pending before the Supreme Court for more than five years as on the 1st August, 1965, (b) if so, the reasons therefor; and was only two—one Civil and one Criminal.] (c) what action Government propose to take to expedite the payment of those arrears? JFREE RAILWAY PASSES TO CENTRAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF *771. SHRI D. THENGARI; Will the EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. HAJAR-NAVIS): Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to (a) Yes, Sir. state: (a) whether Government have taken (b) Delay in communicating the decision any decision in regard to the grant of to the school and delay on the part of the free railway passes to all categories of school to prepare the arrears bill and to Central Government employees; and ohtain the grant.

(b) if .so, what are the details of (c) Director of Education has been asked the decision taken; and to expedite and he has already taken it up with the management. (c) if the answer to part (a) above be in the negative, what are the re asons therefor? PENSIONS OF PERSONS IN PONDICHERRY THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L. 829. SHRI J. S. PILLAI: Will the N. MISHRA): (a) There is Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleas ed to state the number of persons in f[ ] English translation fTransferred from the Pondicherry who receive pensions 22nd September, 1965. from France for (i) military service and (ii) civil service rendered to the French Government? 5405 Written Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5406 THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE (to) if so, when are these examinations MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI conducted and the duration of each JAISUKHLAL HATHI): Information is as scholarship? under:— THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL (i) Number of persons in Pondi-cherry AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF receiving pension from France for EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. HAJAR- Military service 1130. NAVIS): (a) Yes, Sir. (ii) Number oi persons in Pondi-cherry (b) These examinations known as Merit receiving pension from France for (Open) scholarship Examinations are Civil service 208. normally conducted in the month of September/October every year. Eighty GOVERNMENT HIGHER SECONDARY scholarships of Rs. 50 per annum and 40 SCHOOL, QUTAB ROAD, DELHI scholarships of Rs. 10 per month are awarded on the basis of merit position obtained by the participants fn these examinations for Middle 830. SHRI ABDUL GHANI: Will the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased and Higher Secondary Departments to state: respectively. These scholarships are tenable for three years and are renewed every year (a) whether it is a fact that the cases of subject to the satisfactory progress of the revision of pay of some teachers of the scholars in the subsequent years. Government Higher Secondary School, Qutab Road, Delhi are pending with the Education UNIVERSITY AT NATNTTAL Directorate Delhi, since 1953, though some teachers have retired in 1965; / SHRI A. D. MANI: 83Z- \ SHRI (b) if so, what is the number of such SITARAM JAIPURIA: teachers; and Will the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: (c) what are the reasons for such delay in (a) whether it is a fact that the Uttar settling these cases and when they are likely Pradesh Government has asked the Central to be finalised? Government's assistance for the setting up of a University at Nainital; and THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF (b) if so, the action taken by Government EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. HAJAR- thereon? NAVIS): (a) No, Sir. THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE (b) and (c) Questions do not arise. MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI BHAKT DARSHAN): (a) No, Sir. (b) Does not arise. AWARD OF SCHOLARSHIPS TO STUDENTS IN HIGHER SECONDARY CLASSES I.O.C.s DISTRIBUTION CENTRES 831. SHRI ABDUL GHANI: Will the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased 833. SHRI SITARAM JAIPURIA: Will to state: the Minister of PETROLEUM AND CHEMICALS be pleased to state: (a) whether it is a fact that various examiniations for award of scholarships to (a) the number of distribution centres students studying in the IX, X and XI classes opened so far by the are conducted by the Directorate of in the country; Education, Delhi; and 748 RS—3. 5407 Written Answers [RAJYA SABHA] to Questions 5408 (b) the quantity of oil sold by the effect that a Credentials Committee will be set Corporation during the years 1964 and 1965; up soon to certify the credentials of a freedom and fighter and recommend measures to ameliorate his hardships—economic or (c) the steps proposed to be taken to otherwise; boost the sale of oil by the Corporation? (b) if so, whether the Committee has since been constituted; and how many THE MINISTER OF PETROLEUM freedom fighters have since presented their AND CHEMICALS (SHRI credentials to the Committee; and HUMAYUN KABIR): (a) Indian Oil Corporation has a net work of distribution (c) whether adequate publicity has been centres totalling about 1612 comprising given to this fact in all the States? Installations, Depots and Retail outlets etc. THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE (b) A total quantity of 17.20 lakh MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L. Kl was sold in 1964-65 and 12-69 lakh N. MISHRA): (a) Yes. There is no proposal Kl in 1965-66 (April-August 1965). for any such Committee to be set up by Government. (c) The Corporation has prog rammed for the development of their (b) and (c). Do not arise. storage and distribution facilities throughout the country. IMPORT OP CZECH RIFLES

836. SHRI RAM SINGH: Will the RELAXATION IN PROHIBITION LAWS IN lilinister of HOME AFFAIRS be KERALA pleased to state:

834. SHRI A. D. MANI: Will the (a) whether it is a fact that 20,000 Czech Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleas rifles will be imported for being used in the ed to state: civilian rifle training schemes; and (a) whether the Government of Kerala (b) if so, what would be the cost propose to relax the prohibition laws in the involved" in the import- of the rifles? State; and THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE (b) if so, what is the extent of relaxation? MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L. N. MISHRA): (a) Yes, Sir. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE (b) Rs. 22,66,000.00 only. Rupeeg twenty MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI two lakhs and sixty-six thousand only). JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) No, Sir.

(b) Does not arise. SMALL SCALE INDUSTRIES FOR DANDA- KARANYA COMMITTEE TO HELP FREEDOM FIGHTERS 837. SHRI RAM SINGH: Will the 835. SHRI RAM SINGH: Will the Minister 0f REHABILITATION be Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to state: pleased to state: (a) whether it is a fact that Government (a) whether Government's attention has have sounded some countries, specialising in been drawn to the news-item which appeared small-scale industries, to give assistance in in the Hindustan Times dated the 7th June, settng up small 1965 to the 5409 Written Answers [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] to Questions 5410

scale industries in the Dandakaranya Project (c) There are five main private oil area for rehabilitating displaced persons there; distributing companies in the country. and (b) if so, what are the types of industries for which assistance has been sought; what is their employment potential and what responses have been received to Government's request?

THE MINISTER OF REHABILITATION (SHRI MAHAVIR TYAGI): (a) and Co) In connection with an offer for aid from Danish Government, preliminary discussions were held about exploring the scope for assistance in setting up small industrial units in Dandakaranya. No definite indication has however been received so far as to whether any aid from Denmark will actually be avail- able and if so, for whaf schemes.

DISTRIBUTION FACILITIES OF PRIVATE OIL COMPANIES

838. SHRI SITARAM JAIPURIA: Will the Minister of PETROLEUM AND CHEMICALS be pleased to state: (a) whether it is a fact that in July, 1965 t [SAUGAR UNIVERSITY the Union Government asked private oil companies to supply to it detailed information 839. SHRI GURUDEV GUPTA: Will the regarding their present distribution facilities Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: and the extent of their utilisation; (a) whether any negotiations have taken (b) if so, what was the purpose of asking place between the Central Government and the for this information; and Government of Madhya Pradesh for taking over of Saugar University by the Centre; (c) what is the Tiumber of private oil companies in the country at present? (b) if so, whether the Madhya Pradesh Government have proposed to hand over the THE MINISTER OF PETROLEUM AND Saugar University to the Centre; and CHEMICALS (SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR): (a) and (b) On receipt of a complaint in the (c) the decision taken by the Central Ministry, one of the private oil companies was Government on the said proposal of the asked to supply this information in relation to Madhya Pradesh Government?] two of its instullations at one of the ports, in order to ascertain whether these installations were fully utilized.

t [ ] English translation. 5411 Written Answers [RAJYA SABHA] to Questions 5412 t[THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE t[THE MINISTER OF PETROLEUM MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI AND CHEMICALS (SHRI HUMAYUN BHAKT DARSHAN): (a) No, Sir. KABIR): There is a programme for oil exploration in the Cauvery basin as a whole, (b) and (c) Do not arise.] which includes the Cuddalore area. Geologi- cal mapping of the rock outcrops and gravity and magnetic surveys have been completed in the Cauvery basin. Seismic surveys are in progress. The results of the surveys have not so far indicated the need to drill in Cuddalore area. Off-shore seismic survey off the Coromandel Coast is in progress.]

ACQUITTAL OP CRIMINALS IN DELHI

841. SHRI RAM SINGH: Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleas ed to state:

(a) whether it is a fact, that during the last four months 66 per cent of persons charged t[OlL EXPLORATION IN CUDDALORE AREA for murder and 60 per cent of those held for serious crimes by the Delhi Police were ac- 840. SHRI RAM SAHAI: Will the Minister quitted due to faulty marshalling of facts; and of PETROLEUM AND CHEMICALS be pleased to state whether there is any (b) if s° whether Government propose to programme for oil exploration in the stream-line administrative procedure and Cuddalore area of the Cauvery basin; if so, ensure better legal briefiing so that criminals what is the position regarding the do not escape punishment due to adminis- implementation of that programme; and what trative lacuna? is the position regarding the exploratory work being done off the Coromandel Coast with the THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE help of Russia?] MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L. NrMlSHRA): (a) No, Sir. (b) Does not arise.

GRANTS TO RAMJAS HIGHER SECONDARY SCHOOLS, DELHI 842. SHRI ABDUL GHANI: Will the Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: (a) whether'any financial grant is given to the Ramjas Higher Second ary Schools Tn Delhi by the Delhi 1 Administration; (b) whether any control is exer cised by the Directorate of Education,

† [ ] English translation. 5413 Written Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5414 Delh^ over the Ramjas Society which is post of Head Clerk is made from the post of running these schools; Upper Division Clerk and Store-keeper on the (c) it so, whether the office-bearers of the basis of a prescribed quota. Ramj'as Society are elected with the approval (b) No. of the Directorate, and what is the maximum tenure of the office-bearers of the society; and (c) Does not arise. (d) the number of years for which each of the said office-bearers has been in office?

THE MINISTER OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI R. M. HAJAR- NAVIS): (a) Yes, Sir, according to the provisions of the grant-in-aid rules applicable to Government-aided schools in Delhi Union Territory.

(b) No, the Directorate 0f Education, Delhi, exercises control over the aided schools to the extent provided in the Delhi Education Code. (c) and (d) Do not arise.

PROMOTIONS FOR EMPLOYEES IN DANDA- KARANYA PROJECT ADMINISTRATION

• 843 SHRI D. THENGARI: Will the Minister of REHABILITATION be pleased to state:

(a) the channels of promotion for the Ministerial Staff working in the Dandakaranya Project Administration, t [MEDICAL COLLEGE OF BANARAS HINDU especally from the post 0f Storekeeper to that UNIVERSITY of Head Clerk;

(b) whether it. is a fact that under the 844. SHRI RAM SAHAI: Will the existing rules some Store-keepers have not Minister of EDUCATION be pleased to state: been promoted although their promotions have been due for two years; and (a) whether the grades prescribed by the University Grants Commission were enforced (c) if so, what are the reasons therefor? in the Medical College of the Banaras Hindu University; THE MINISTER OF REHABILITATION (SHRI MAHAVIR TYAGI): (a) The channel (b) if so, since when the grades have been of promotion is from the post of Lower enforced and whether the arrears have since Division Clerk to that of Upper Division been paid; and Clerk and from the post of Upper Division Clerk to that of Assistant. Promotion to the (c) whether it is a fact that there are some ex-employees of that college who were also not paid any arrears and. if so, the reasons therefor?]

†[ ] English translation.

5415 Written Answers [ RAJYA SABHA ] to Questions 5416

f|THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI BHAKT DARSHAN): (a) Yes, Sir.

(b) The revised grades were en -J-[RAID ON SPECULATORS IN DELHI forced with effect from 1-4-51 and the arrears have been paid. 846. SHRI RAM SAHAI: Will the (c) Does not arise.] Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to state: LAND ALLOTTED TO ULF HOUSING (a) whether it is a fact that in the first SOCIETY week of September the Delhi police raided a den of speculators in Churiwalah in Delhi; f SHRI LILADHAR -} (b) if so, how many persons were BAROOAH: ^SHRI R. N. KAKATI: rounded up;

Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be (c) whether any documents were pleased to state: recovered frcm their possession; and

(a) whether land has been allotted by the (d) if so, what is the nature of Delhi Administration to the ULF Housing these documents?] Society in Delhi; and (b) whether any complaint has been received by Government against this Society?

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS

†[THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L. N. MISHRA): (a) No such raid in Churiwalan was conducted by the Delhi police in the first week of September, 1965.

(b) to (d) Do not arise]

†[ ] English translation. 5417 Written Answers [24 SEP. 1965] to Questions 5418 and (iii) abuse of power received against the non-gazetted employees of his Ministry during the year 1963-64 and so far in 1965; (b) the posts held by those employees during that period; (c) the action taken by Government on those complaints; and (d) whether the complaints were con;acted before the complaints were adjudged as Vague or baseless?

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) 6 complaints of corruption and 17 complaints of misconduct were received against the non-gazetted t [GRANTS TO UNIVERSITIES FOR employees of the Ministry of Home Affairs LIBRARIES during this period. (b) Assistants 847. SHRI RAM SAHAI: Will the Minister Hindi Teachers .. 5 of EDUCATION be pleased to state the Stenographer .. 1 name? of those universities in the country U.D.C. .. 4 which have utilised t^e grants given to them Junior Reception by Government durng 1962-63 and 1963-64 Officer .. 1 for the purpose of Library development; and L.D.Cs. .. 5 the names of those universities which have Sepoys in Security not so utilised the grants and the reasons Organisation .. 3 therefor?] 23

(c) Departmental action was taken in 15 cases 2 cases are in courts and the remaining 6 complaints were found to be vague or t[THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE baseless. MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (SHRI (d) The complaints considered vague or BHAKT DARSHAN): The information is baseless were anonymous/ pseudonymous being collected and will be laid on the Table and the question of contacting the of the Sabha in due course.] complaints did not arise. 848. [Transferred to the 22nd Sep tember, 1965.] KEROSENE PRICE IN DELHI

COMPLAINTS AGAINST EMPLOYEES OF 850. SHRI SITARAM JAIPURIA: Will HOME MINISTRY the Minister of PETROLEUM AND CHEMICALS be pleased to 849. SHRI U. S. PATIL: Will the state: Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to state: (a) whether it is a fact that the price of kerosene has gone up in Delhi during this (a) the number of complaints relating to month, September, 1965; (i) corruption (ii) misconduct (b) if so, what are the reasons therefor; and †[ ] English translation.

5419 Calling Attention [RAJYA SABHA ] Matter of Urgent 5420 to a * Public Importance (c) what steps have been taken to check the rise in the price?

THE MINISTER OF PETROLEUM AND CHEMICALS (SHRI HUMAYUN KABIR): (a) and .(b) Yes, Sir. On account of an increase in the duty, the selling price of Superior Kerosene has been increased by Rs. 51.30 per kilolitre w.e.f., 20-8-65 throughout the country including Delhi. (c) Necessary powers have already been THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SHRI Y. delegated to the State Governments/Union B. CHAVAN): In one of the most barbarous Territory Administrations under the and indiscriminate bombings, Pakistani Air appropriate statutory provisions to prevent Force attacked on 22nd September at increase in the price of kerosene beyond 4.15 P.M. Two B-57s and three F-86 Sabre jets permissible limits. of Pakistan Air Force raided Amritsar and dropped bombs indiscriminately in and around fVisiTs OF MINISTERS ABROAD Chhe-harta which is about free miles from 773. SHRI D. THENGARI: Will the Amritsar. The aircraft came in at a low height Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to and were .engaged by our anti-aircraft guns. state: The raid lasted five minutes. Three bombs were dropped about 400 yards away from the (a) the names of the Cabinet Minis Khalsa College towards Chhe-harta in the ters, Ministers of States and Deputy fields, injuring a woman and a child and Ministers who visited foreign coun damaging crops. Three bombs fell right in the tries during the last four months; populated area of Chheharta known as Pratap (b) the names of the countries visited by Bazar, 400 yards from the Chheharta ea.h of them and the purpose of their visit; Gurdwara demolishing 40 houses and and damaging another 35. Dead bodies so far (c) the foreign exchange allowed to each found are 55 incuding women and children. of them? The debris is being searched for more bodies. About 65 seriously injured cases have been THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE admitted in the hos-pi'al. Close to this MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI populated area of Chheharta, another six JAISUKHLAL HATHI): (a) to (c) The bombs fell in the fields near the railway information is being co'-lected and will be station. This place is about six miles from the laid on the Table of the House in due course. aerodrome. All bombs were of 1000 lbs. The planes did strafing as well, as indicated by bullet marks on the wa'ls of various houses. CALLING ATTENTION TO A MATTER There were no military objectives in the OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE vicinity. BOMBING OF CIVILIAN POPULATION IN CHHEHARTA AREA OF AMRITSAR BY PAF ON 22ND SEPTEMBER 1965 AFTER ACCEPTANCE OF CEASE-FIRE

•{Transferred from the 22nd September, 1965.

5421 Calling Attention [24 SEP. 1965] ■ Matter of Uraent 5422 to a Public Importance question of giving any special instructions. The hon. Member is unnecessarily trying to create misunderstanding between the Air Force and the Government.

SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: I am not trying to create any misunderstanding but I would like to know whether any military installations were bombed by our Air Force after we accepted the Cease-fire, not after 3.30.

SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: I do not want to give any information.

SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: The hon. Prime Minister in his broadcast stated, 'We have not attacked Karachi even though most of the aircraft, which used to attack our territory had their base there. I would like to know why Karachi was spared when they bombarded religious places, when they bombarded civilian places. Why was the Air Force asked to spare Karachi?

SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: It is absolutely wrong and unfair to discuss matters of strategy. Why Karachi was not bombed, there SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN; It is not true were many other reasons for that. because certain instructions were sent to bring into effect the Ceasefire by 3.30 A.M. SHRI T. S. PATTABIRAMAN (Madras): yesterday morning but of course at the same May I know whether it is a fact that the time they were given instructions that if they Pakistan Army shelled Indian positions in were fired at certainly they should fire back. Indian territory till 10.30 yesterday and that Those instructions were ihere. there were some casualties?

SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: Does SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: No. As far as my it not mean that the Air Force was asked not information goes, fighting in certain sectors to carry out any air bombing on military went up to 3.33 in the morning. The fighting installations? was going on both sides.

MR. CHAIRMAN: When? SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: Sir, Pakistan has intruded into our territory in the SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: Till Jammu sector even af er the Cease-fire at 3.30. From the reply of the Defence Minister 3.30, and instead of throwing back the Pakis- it is clear tha!; the Air Force was asked to tanis from our territory, we have ioaged a reply back if Pakistan fired. Does it mean that protest with the United Nations. A group we asked the Air Force to have a unilateral of Members of Cease-fire?

SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: There "?as no question of unilateral Cease-fire but certainly if they had to take any steps, they were free. There was no 5423 Calling Attention [ RAJYA SABHA ] Matter of Urgent 5424 to a Public Importance Parliament visited the Ferozepore sector United Nations yesterday that any violation of yesterday and they saw shelling, Pakistani the Cease-fire agreement af.er 3.30 would be shelling at 10 A.M. I would like to know treated as violation and in spite of that it is whether our policy is to repulse back any reported in today's papers that Pakistan attack, or to send applications to the United committed aggression on Atari border, Nations. somewhere in Atari. Is it not violation of the Cease-fire and if so what action Government SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: Our instructions is going to take in this regard? are that if they try to intrude, they should be dealt with very firmly; there is no doubt about SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: I think I have that. Certainly these steps will be taken and answered this, Sir. Wherever the infiltrators simultaneously we will lodge a complaint are active, our instructions are that they with the United Nations. should be dealt with very firmly. SHRI I. K. GUJRAL (Delhi): Sir, may I SHRI G. MURAHARI (Uttar Pradesh) : with your permission ask the hon. Minister In view of the fact that the casualties inflicted while we appreciate the valour of our men on Amritsar in this single raid were there, has it been brought to his notice that probably more than all the casualties that there have been some cases where Pakistan is Amritsar had suffered during the course of the trying to infringe the Cease-fire line, and if war after 1st September I would like to know such facts have come to his notice, how many why the civil defence measures were relaxed. are they and where have they happened? Was it a fact that the Government assumed that the moment the Cease-fire was to take SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: Of course, I won't effect, everything would be all right and that, be able to give the exact number, but certainly therefore, they relaxed every precaution the tendency is there and they are trying to even before 3.30 and did not provide adequate send in groups of infiltrators to show as if they defence for the city of Amritsar? are in occupation of certain areas. Now certainly that will have to be taken care of; I SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: It is not true; the mean, even after the Cease-fire, this seams to civil defence arrangements were there in be a rather uneasy Cease-fire line. So we have Amritsar throughout. As I said just now in my to be watchful and vigilant and take action as statement, our anti-aircraft guns did go into and when things start hardening. action but. Sir, in cases of these low-flying raids, radar help is not very effective. SHRI N. SRI RAMA REDDY (Mysore); Therefore, naturally, they could not be taken Shall we shoot them at sight? on by the Air Force. But other steps were taken. SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: I would not like to answer this question; if necessary, yes.

SHRI M. M. DHARIA (Maharashtra): Is it a fact that though it was possible for us to SHRI M. C. SHAH (Gujarat): What action bombard cities like Lahore and Sialkot—I cur Government proposes to take, in view of mean the civilian areas—we have not done so this indiscriminate bombing of our civi'ian because we believe that our war is not with population, beyond sending protest notes? I the people of Pakistan? want to know whether any reparations are to be claimed from Pakistan Government SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: Yes, Sir. because of such inhuman acts

SHRI R. S. KHANDEKAR ( Madhya Pradesh): Sir, U. Thant said in the J 5425 Papers laid [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] on the Table 5426 on their part. Our Government also knows STATEMENTS SHOWING ACTION TAKEN BY that the Chief Minister of Gujarat flying in a GOVERNMENT ON ASSURANCES, PROMISES civilian plane was shot down by Pakistani AND UNDERTAKINGS GIVEN DURING THE pia^es. In view of all these facts, I want to VARIOUS SESSIONS know from the Government v.hat action SHRI RATANLAL KISHORILAL Government proposes to take for repara+ions MALVIYA: Sir, on behalf of Shri Satya of these misdeeds. Narayan Sinha I beg to lay on the Table the SHRI Y. B. CHAVAN: Su, I know; I very following statements showing the action well share the sentiments of the hon. Member taken by Government on the various in this particular matter; th;s barbarous and assurances, promises and undertakings given dastardly attack on the Chief Minister of during the sessions shown against each: — (i) Gujarat is resented by every one of us, but at Statement No. XI—Forty-sixth Session, the rame time Sir, their attacks on the civilian 1964. (ii) Statement No. VIII—Forty- population as > wliole are something to eighth Session, 1964. (iii) Statement No. condemn which we have no worse words to VIII—Forty-ninth Session, 1964, (iv) make u* of. But certain'y we are doing ;■• I Statement No. VII—Fiftieth mean, what action we should take- certainly Session, 1964. (v) Statement No. we should—is a matter for the Government to IV—Fifty-first Session, 1965. (vi) consider. We have lodged a piotest with the Statement No. Ill—Fifty-second United Nations about this bombnis of the Session, 1965. (vii) Statement No. I— civilian population. But, Sir, I won't be able tc Fifty-third Session, 1965. say that we wjuid RO and bombard their [See Appendix LIII, Annexure Nos. J 66 civilian population. to 72 for (i) to (vii).] MR. CHAIRMAN: I now ra.-.i or to the I. ANNUAL REPORT (1964-65) OF next item. NATIONAL CO-OPERATIVE DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION II. CERTIFIED AUDIT ACCOUNTS (1963- 64) OF NATIONAL COOPERATIVE ! PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION AND AuDrr NOTE ON THE PRESENT WORKING OF REPORT THEREON DELHI MILK SCHEME THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE I MINISTRY OF COMMUNITY MINISTRY OF FOOD AND AGRI- DEVELOPMENT AND CO-OPERATION CULTURE (SHRI D. R. CHAVAN): Sir, on (SHRI B. S. MURTHY): Sir. on behalf of behalf of Shri Subramaniam, I beg to lay on Shri Dey, I beg to lay on the Table a copy the Tab'e a note bn the present working of the each of the following papers: Delhi Milk Scheme. [Placed in Library. See (a) The Annual Report of the National No. LT—4968/65.] Co-operative Development REPORT (1965) OF THE CENTRAL WAGE Corporation, New Delhi, for the BOARD FOR COFFEE PLANTATION year 1964-65, under sub-section (3) iNPtrRTRV of section 14 of the Natoinal Co- operative Development Corporation THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE Act, 1962. [Placed in Library. See MINISTRY OF LABOUR AND EMP No. LT-4969/65.] LOYMENT (SHRI RATANLAL

KISHORILAL MALAVIYA): Sir, on (b) The Certified Annual Accounts of behalf of Shri Sanjivayya, I beg to the National Cooperative lay on the Table a copy of the Report Development Cor- (1965) of the Central Wage Board for Coffee Plantation Industry. [Placed in Library. See No. Lt—4967|65].

5427 Papers laid [ RAJYA SABHA ] on the Table 5428 poration, New Delhi, for the year (iii) Notification G.S.R. No. 1350, dated 1963-64, together with the Audit the 10th September, 1965, Report thereon, under sub-section publishing the Defence of India (4) of section 17 of the National Co- (Fourth Amendment) Rules, 1965. operative Development Corporation [Placed in Library. See No. LT- Act, 1962. [Placed in Library. See 4924/65.] No. LT-4970/65.] I. THE ALL INDIA SERVICES (PROVIDENT AMENDMENTS IN THE KERALA PUBLIC FUND) SECOND AMENDMENT RULES, 1965 SERVICE COMMISSION (CONSULTATION) II. THE ALL INDIA SERVICES (DEATH-CUM- REGULATIONS, 1957 ETTREMENT BENEFITS) FIFTH RULES, SHRI B. S. MURTHY: Sir, on behalf of 1965 Shri Jaisukhlal Hathi, I beg to lay on the Table III. THE ALL INDIA SERVICES (DEATH- a copy of Notification G.O. (P) No. 565, CUM-RETIREMENT BENEFITS) FIFTH published in the Kerala Gazette dated the 11th AMENDMENT RULES, 1965 August, 1965, making certain amendments in SHRI B. S. MURTHY: Sir, on behalf of the Kerala Public Service Commission Shri Jaisukhlal Hathi, I also beg to lay on the (Consultation) Regulations, 1957, together Table a copy each of the following with an explanatory memorandum thereon, Notifications of the Ministry of Home Affairs, under clause (5) of article 320 of the Cons- under sub-section (2) of section 3 of the All titution read with clause (c) (iv) of the India Services Act, 1951: — Proclamation (G.S.R. No. 490) issued on the 24th March, 1965, in relation to the State of (i) Notification G.S.R. No. 1175, Kerala. [Placed in Library. See No. LT- dated the 13th August, 1965, 4972/65.] publishing the All India Ser vices (Provident Fund) I. THE DEFENCE OF INDIA (AMENDMENT) Second Amendment Rules, RULES, 1965. 1965. I'L THE DEFENCE OF INDIA (REQUISI- (ii) Notification G.S.R. No. 1176, TIONING AND ACQUISITION OF IMMOVABLE dated the 16th August, 1965, PROPERTY) AMENDMENT RULES, 1965 publishing the All India Ser III. THE DEFENCE OF INDIA (FOURTH vices (Death-cum-Retirement AMENDMENT) RULES, 1965 Benefits) Fifth Amendment Rules, 1965. SHRI B. S. MURTHY. Sir, on behalf of (iii) Notification G.S.R. No. 1306, Shri Jaisukhlal Hathi,I also beg to lay on the dated the 1st September, 1965, Table a copy each of the following publishing th All India Ser Notifications, under section 41 of the Defence e vices (Death-cum-Retirement 'of India Act, 1962: — Benefits) Sixth Amendment (i) Notification G.S.R. No. 741, dated Rules, 1965. the 13th May, 1965, publishing the [Placed in LibraTy. See No. LT- Defence of India (Amendment) 4971/65 for (i) to (iii).] Rules, 1965. [Placed in Liibrary. THE COTTON TEXTILES (CONTROL) See No. LT- 4932/65.] SECOND AMENDMENT ORDER, 1965 (ii) Notification G.S.R. No. 831, dated THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE the 9th June, 1965, publishing the MINISTRY OF LAW (SHRI JAGA-NATH Defence of India (Requisitioning RAO): Sir, 'on behalf of Shri Ramaswamy I and Acquisition of Immovable beg to lay on the Table under sub-section (6) Property) (Amendment) Rules, of section 3 of the Essential Commodities Act, 1965. [Placed in Library. See No. 1965, a copy of the Ministry of Commerce LT-4923/65.] Notification S.O. No. 2712, dated the 16th August, 1965, publishing the Cotton Textiles (Control) Second Amendment Order, 1965. [Placed in Library. See No. LT-4973/65.]

5429 Appropriation ..24 SEP. 1965] Aoprop nation 5430 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 BiZL 1965 NOTIFICATIONS UNDER THE ESSENTIAL showing the replies of Government to the COMMODITIES ACT, 1955 recommendations noted in Chapter V of the Fifty-fourth Report of the Estimates THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE Committee (1963-64) on Neyveli Lignite MINISTRY OF FOOD AND AGRICUL- Corporation Limited, which were not TURE (SHRI D. R. CHAVAN): Sir, I beg to furnished by Government in time for inclusion lay on the Table, under subsection (6) of in the Report. section 3 of the Essential Commodities Act, 1955, a copy each of the following Notifications of the Ministry of Food and Agriculture (Department of Food): — GOVERNMENT REPLIES TO CER- (i) Notification G.S.R. No. 1382, dated TAIN RECOMMENDATIONS MADE the 14th September, 1965 IN SEVENTH REPORT OF publishing the Madhya Pradesh COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC UNDER- Rice (Movement Control) Second TAKINGS (1964-65) Amendment Order, 1965. SHRI M. GOVINDA REDDY: I beg to lay (ii) Notification G.S.R. Nqj. 1383, dated on the Table a statement showing the replies the 14th September, 1965, of Government to the recommendations noted publishing the Orissa rice in Chapter V of the Seventh Report of the (Movement Control) Amendment Committee on Public Undertakings (1964-65) Order, 1965. on National Coal Development Corporation (iii) Notification G.S.R. No. 1384, dated Limited , which were not furnished by the 14th September, 1965. Government in time for inclusion in the Report.

SHRI JAGANATH RAO: Sir, I beg to lay The question was put and the motion was on the Table a copy of the Twenty-seventh adopted. Report of the Law Commission on the Code of civil Procedure. 1903. [Placed in Library. SHRI JAGANATH RAO: Sir, I introduce See No. LT-4975/65.] the Bill.

GOVERNMENT REPLIES TO OER- I THE APPROPRIATION (RAIL- TAIN RECOMMENDATIONS MADE IN WAYS) No. 3 BILL 1965 AND THE FIFTY-FOURTH REPORT OF THE ESTI- APPROPRIATION (RAILWAYS) NO. 4 MATES COMMITTEE 1963-64) BILL, 1965—contd. SHRI M. GOVINDA REDDY; Sir, I beg SHRI N. K. DAS (Orissa): Chairman to lay on the Table a statement Saheb, on the eve of this House putting its stamp of approval to the Railway Appropriation Bills, I should

543I Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Appropriation 5432 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965 [Shri N. K. Das.] like to make a few The identical nature of the timetables goes to observations on the particular aspect of the show that the Zonal Time-Table Sub- railway-administration, that is, on the issue Committee exists, if at all, by mere name. I of time-tables. would be glad to know how many opinions [THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair] and suggestions from Members of Parliament were sought prior to the publication of each As hon. Members are aware, the Railway Zonal Time-Table. Board publishes two new time-tables. It publishes new timetables twice every year. PANDIT S. S. N. TANKHA (Uttar One takes effect from 1st April and the other Pradesh): Often they are called We receive takes effect from 1st October. They are called letters. new time-tables, but on going through the pages of these timetables one will notice that SHRI N. K. DAS: I do not know. So far as the time schedules for the different trains are I am personally concerned, I think this almost identical in the new timetable and practice has been given the go-by. in the one just preceding it. In any two successive time-tables they are almost the same, PANDIT S. S. N. TANKHA: No, no with only slight variations. Some trains are put j a few minutes ahead and some trains are put a SHRI N. K DAS: My hon friend here says few minutes later. I fail to understand why the that even now this practice is being followed. Railway Board takes the trouble of publishing these time-tables which are priced publications, PANDIT S. S. N. TANKHA: I say so once in every six months, when their contents because I have been receiving their notice are almost identical, anr] the general users of every time. the Railways are made to pay twice. So far as Members of Parliament are concerned, they SHRI N. K. DAS: So far as the South are, of course, presented with complimentary Eastern Railway is concerned, to which I copies of the All-India Time-Table. But for the belong, I do not think I am receiving such general public, these time-tables are priced notices of such meetings. publications. The All-India Time-Table is priced Rs. 2.50 and those for the different zonal THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Das, Railways are priced 25 paise each or even you should finish in five minutes, because the more. I should like to know from the hon. time allowed for this Bill is half an hour and Railway Minister if this is not an unnecessary there are five or seven speakers. and irksome imposition on the users of the Railways. As regards the procedure for the issue SHRI N. K. DAS: Yes, Madam. Personally I and publication of the time-tables, we are have no happy experience, I and some other given to ..understand that there is a Time-Table Members of Parliament from Orissa have not Sub-Committee attached to each Zonal very happy experience in the matter of our Railway. I do not know on what basils this Time- suggestions being duly considered by the Table Committee is constituted and which fg the Railway Administration. Time and again, we authority to constitute this Time-Table Sub- have been appealing to the Railway Committee. I do not also know if regular Administration to arrange for the stoppage of meetings of this Time Table Sub Committee are two trains, i.e., 37 Up and 38 Down. We have held prior to the publication of a new time-table. been appealing to the South Eastern Railway Administration to restore the stoppage of these two trains at four or five stations from which they were withdrawn more than two or 5433 Appropriation i 2! SEP. 1965] Appno HeUcn 5434 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965 three years back without any valid reason {Time bell rings.) We have been agitating over this matter for some time past. We have spoken about it in this House, and in the I other House also this matter was being discussed, 'in April or May of this year, at a meeting of the Consultative Committee of the South Eastern Railway, which was also at- tended by the General Manager, we •tried to invite the pointed attention of the South Eastern Railway to the restoration of the stoppages of these two trains at these four or five stations. But the South Eastern Railway Administration, it appears, is a hard hut to crack and they remain ada- mant. And in the latest time-table which is to take effect from the 1st October nex^ this humble request has not been conceded. I do hope the Railway Minister will be good enough to see that early steps are taken for the restoration of the stoppage of these two trains at the four or five stations. I may name them. They are Rupsa, which ie some sort of a junction, Soro which is an industrial area and . . .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please wind up. SHRI N. K. DAS: And Baitarani Road, Jenapur and Dhanmandal. Madam, I thank you.

5435 Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Appropriation 5436 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965

5437 Appropriation [ 54 SEP. 1965 ] Appropriation 5438 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965

5439 Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Appropriation 5440 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965

5441 Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Appropriation 5442 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965

t[ ]

5443 Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA] , Appropriation 5444 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965

(1 ime bell rings

5445 Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Appro^riuiUni 5446 {Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965

5447 Appropriation [RAJYA SABHA] Appropriation 5448 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) Wo. 4 Bill, 1965

5449 Appropriation [ 24 £EP. 1965 ] Appropriation 5450 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965

to the north. Therefore there is necessity for the conversion of that metre gauge section into broad gauge between Madras and Trichinopoly. It is very essential and I hope the Railway Minister will make a note of this.

Then there is the suburban line from Madras to Arkonam which requires immediate electrification because industrial expansion is taking place there very rapidly and people do need an electric train service for that distance of about 43 miles.

Next, the Gummidipundi-Gudur section has to be doubled quickly because unless it is doubled, the electrification between and Madras may not be useful. Therefore first preference should be given to this.

Now a doubt was raised by my hon. friend there that the Southern Railway was running into loss every year. That means that the south is not developed, as the north is developed. That is the reason for that. Not only now but even from the days of the Britishers, Calcutta and Bombay had been very highly developed and the south with outstretched hands has had to import goods from Calcutta and Bombay. The goods train carrying goods to the south have to return empty. It is all one way traffic. As far as goods traffic is concerned, the goods wagons have to be handed over to the other SHRI T. V. ANANDAN (Madras): Railways empty and those charges are debited Madam, I have nothing much to add than to against the Southern Railway and that is the say . . . reason why the Southern Railway is running at a loss. If industrial expansion takes place in the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Then you south, if the south does not expect any imports will take less than five minutes? from the north and if the north expects goods from the south then the income from goods SHRI T. V. ANANDAN: . . . that the traffic will be very high in the Southern electrification of Vijayawada-Madras section Railway. is very good but it will not fully serve the purpose unless the metre gauge line that runs Finally, I applaud the Railways— the between Madras and Trichinopoly is Railway Minister has also paid glorious converted to broad gauge because the tributes to the railwaymen— for their Thiruve-rambur Heavy Boilers are going to mamificent performance produce boilers which have to be transported to the north and if that metre gauge line is there, transhipment difficulty will be there. Therefore it is vefy necessary. And it is not only these heavy boilers. A small arms factory is also being started in the south and these products must go

5451 Appropriation [RAJYA SABHA] Appropriation 5452 {Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 {Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965 [Shri T. V. Anandan.] during the recent and gallant part which cannot be emergency. Instead of words I want compared to any in the two world wars. certain concrete and material benefits to To that extent our jawans have created a* be granted to the railwaymen. 1 am not great impression. When our jawans are going to cause extra expenditure to the sent back home, when they are relieved Railway Administration. Thpre is some from the Army, I would like some upgrading given to class 111 staff but percentage of posts to be reserved for there is a disparity as 3C, 40 and 55 per them on the Railways. We give cent. I would request the hon. Minister to employment to about 12-1/2 lakhs of extend the 55 per cent, to all the class III railwaymen. So, if they are absorbed, a staff without any differentiation. It will few military personnel who have rendered not cost much to the Railway military service, it will not harm any. I Administration. would request the Minister to see to this. Protect their pay, but do not give them the Secondly; Madam, there is always an seniority. This question has been even accusation against the railwaymen for today pending before the Railway human failure, although they perform Ministry. The predecessor British their duties diligently. The main reason is Government had given an undertaking the running staff is made to work for 14 during the Second World War to those to 16 hours. I request the hon. Minister tc people who joined the Army—it was a refer to paragraph 277 of the mercenary Army—that they would be Adjudicator's Awar

5453 .Appropriation [ 2 i SEP. 1965] Appropriation 5454' (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill. 1965 lot and that will be a very sad discrimination. highest order. That pleases me immensely and I shall convey to the rail-waymen the There is one matter on which there has been congratulations which you , and the other House unanimity and that is many Members, more have paid. than once, barring perhaps one exception— Mr. Chordia, to whom I shall come later— There is one thing that I want to say. We have paid compliments and congratulations wanted to do something for railwaymen. The to the railwaymen. From many men we have hon. Member, Mr. Chordia, said that we had heard that the railwaymen have rendered good not attended to some of their conveniences. I service during these very difficult hours of quite grant that it might be like that. We did not emergency. May I, on behalf of the Administra- think of how many people we're going in a tion and railwaymen, express tox the House how coach or in a wagon, because our responsibility profoundly we are grateful for all these was to see that they reached their destination, appreciations that not only Members of this no matter under what condition. House and the other House but the public in Therefore, there was not enough tune even to general have made, if I tell them under what consider that. It may be true —I do hot know— strains and stresses the railwaymen had to that a particular Party was not given the work during these fateful days, these 21 or opportunity of distributing sweets and 22 days in order to meet the needs of the Armed other things, I am extremely sorry about it, Forces, they would appreciate it even more. If because one good that this emergency has anybody has got to perform a very vital task in a brought about in this country is the complete war of this description, it is transport, and in unanimity in India and we are very proud of it. transport more than anything else Railways. You, Members of the Opposition, belonging Members will realise that at very short to various Parties did not find that notice, within one or two hours, at any odd difference which you had very reason to find. place anywhere in India, wagons and coaches You all combined together in order that a had to be assembled and the troops had to be unified leadership could be made possible in carried and trains had to be run, not one train, this emergency. Therefore, if any such thing sometimes ten, fifteen, twenty and even has happened, I apologise. I am very sorry for twentyfive trains had to be run, upsetting all it. If it had been brought to my notice I would other arrangements. That had got to be done. have removed it at once. But at a time like that, Therefore, our railwaymen, wherever they were, it becomes very difficult to make everybody right from the Chairman of the Railway Board understand everything. What is of immense to the lowest gangman, worked as if the importance is that the troops must be conveyed responsibility was his. He had to discharge his at the proper time. There are risks, and many duty in the manner in which the country ex- risks were taken. When the whole story is pected him to do it. That is the way in which the divulged, you will understand as to what great work was done. It was magnificent indeed and I risks had to be taken during these days. I can am proud of every railwayman, because he tell you something which has come to my stood up in the hour of trial and did his duty. notice. Bombs had to be taken almost Everybody from the Defence Minister, uncovered. That thing had never happened everybody right from the first day, whenever anywhere, because the security regulations we met him, used to say that so far as the work are there. The security of the staff is involved. of the railwaymen was concerned in this There was no question of that. If it was particular emergency, it was of the wanted, it had to be produced and it had to be conveyed. Otherwise, I think we would n'ot have achieved the enormous success that

5455 Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA] Appropriation 5456 (Railways) No. 3 Bill, 1965 (Railways) No. 4 Bill, 1965

[Shri S. K. Patil] we achieved in this war. there will be ho difficulty at all. If anything And, there-iore, if a slight inconvenience was more has got to be done, surely the Railways caused to our troops and jawans, surely it was will see to it that it is done. Already I think we not intentional and* could not be intentional. have lost about 19 people dead, and several of Applications used to come to me everyday. them were wounded. In spite of the fact that Everybody wanted to give something to the the bombs were falling every day in places like jawans, wanted to distribute sweets andi we Ferozepore, Gadra, etc,—you were listening to were freely allowing that but we had to restrict 'that, and the railway lines become the easiest it for the sake of security, in respect of the target and 54 kilometres of that line, every people who were coming to the station because inch of it, could not be protected by any stretch there was' a risk involved in that position also. of imagination although there was a lot of protection wherever it was needed—thank Many cases have come to my notice. There Heavens that ultimately we could do all these was one case where the ins-.tinct of an things, no serious danger to the track anywhere ordinary man helped in saving a catastrophe, was caused and the troop movement really was a danger that would have arisen. A shepherd carried out very easily. boy somewhere saw that four persons were Somebody suggested and we have accepted sitting near a station and they appeared to him and enlarged that suggestion ■ and taken it, to be somewhat suspicious. Now, the shepherd that there are people who have done boy did not know who is a paratrooper and who very meritorious things something magnificent is not. His instinct told him that there was in this war, and added to the honour and' something wrong about those four men dignity of this great country besides who were sitting there. He immediately ran and safeguarding its security and winning the war; gave that information to the Station Master, some of them have been given various kinds who conveyed it to the police. When the police of recognition and the highest of them was came and these people knew what the police Param Vir Chakra. We know the places were coming, they ran away. They had left from which these people, the recipients of this behind a box full of live bombs. Therefore, Param Vir Chakra hail. Therefore, we have you could quite understand the tremendous decided that on our railway station nearest to the risks these railwaymen had to take everywhere. place from where these people hail—we are There are many other instances and these collecting information—we shall put a could be multiplied as to what they did. permanent plaque commemorating the excellent services the magnificent services, Now, we have done whatever is possible, these people have rendered. If there are any jnst as the Army has done something going other suggestions by which we couldi do this, out of our way. Anythin? we do for these they are welcome. This would be a kind 'of people is not reallv adequate or enough. example to generations to come so that Wherever anyhodv died on the railways, -<"e they could draw inspiration remembering that have seen to it that somebody ;i that family no what did happen this year may happen at any matter whether *"° has the c(""ilification or time and we shall be more ready than we not. i« emr>i'""J or. that besides giving them are today. moipv—not mr>riov according to law —but Madam, I do not want to take the time of pven r>inc< beyond it i.e.. "Rs. 2.500 the House. So far as the suggestions that were r ,; imm " ^tely. we orovi'dp them job-? vo thit made are concerned about the railway running it should continue and and so on, we shall pay attention to it. If some inconvenience was caused 5457 Kerala Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Kerala Appripriation 5458 No. 3 Bill, 1965 No. 3 Bill, 1965 during these days, because We could n'ot Sabha, be taken into consideration." attend to the passengers' conveniences etc., that should really be condoned. It was not due The motion was adopted. to any fault on our part because that was the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall time when these things could not be attended now take up ithe clause by clause to. consideration of the Bill. With these words, I commend these two Clauses 2 and 3 and the Schedule were Bills for the acceptance of the House. added to the Bill.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall first Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the put the Appropriation (Railways) No. 3 Bill. Title were added to the Bill. The question is: SHRI S. K. PATIL: Madam, I move: 'That the Bill to provide for the "That the Bill be returned". authorisation of moneys tout of the Consolidated Fund of India to meet the The question was put and the motion was amounts spent on certain •services for the adopted. purposes of Railways during the financial THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; The next year ended 'on the 31st day of March, 1963, item on the Order Paper is the Kerala in excess of the amounts granted for those Appropriation (No. 3) Bill, 1965, and ithe services and for that year, as passed by the Kerala Appropriation (No. 4) Bill, 1965. L'ok Sabha, be taken into consideration." These itwo Bills will be taken up together. The motion was adopted. I may announce here that the House will sit through the lunch hour. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall n'ow take up the clause by clause consideration of the Bill. THE KERALA APPROPRIATION Clauses 2 and 3 and the Schedule were (NO. 3) BILL, 1965 added to the Bill 1 THE KERALA APPROPRIATION Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the (NO. 4) BILL, 1965 Title were added to the Bill. THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE SHRI S. K. PATIL: Madam, I move: MINISTRY OF FINANCE (SHRI RAMESHWAR SAHU): Madam, I beg to "That the Bill be returned". move : The, question was put and the motion was "That the Bill to provide for the adopted. authorisation of appropriation of moneys THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now out of the Consolidated Fund of the State of put the Appropriation (Railways) No. 4 Bill, Kerala to meet the amounts spent on certain 1965. The question is: services during the financial year ended on the 31st day of March, 1962, in excess of "Thait the Bill to authorise payment and the amounts granted for those services and appropriation of certain further sums from f°r that year, as passed by the , be and out of the Consolidated Fund of Indra taken into consideration." for the service of the financial year 1965-66 for the purposes of Railways, as passed The Bill arises out of the Demands for by the Lok Excess Grants relating to the year 5459 Kerala Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Kerala Appropriation 5460 No. 4 Bill, 1965 No. 4 Bill, 1965 [Shri Rameshwar Sahu.] 1961-62, in The present Bill arises out of the respect of the Kerala State, voted by the Supplementary Demands for Grants for Lok Sabha on the 13th September, 1965 Rs. 59-04 lakhs voted by the Lok Sabha and the expenditure charged on the on the 13th September, 1965,and the Consolidated Fund of ithe State of Kerala expenditure of Rs. 9-54 lakhs 'Charged' and incurred in excess of the sanctioned on the Consolidated Fund °* Kerala State. appropriations for that year. The reasons The Supplementary Demand Statements which led to the excesses have been presented to the House give the explained in the foot-notes below each explanations in support of these Demand Ox Appropriation in the proposals. lit is not necessary for me, Statement of Demands for Excess Grants therefore, to go into these in detail except which has already been circulated to the to make a brief mention of the important hon. Members. items included in the present batch of Supplementary Demands. Of the total voted expenditure of Rs. As the House is aware, the excesses as 59-04 lakhs, Rs. 45 lakhs are required for disclosed in the Appropriation Accounts a loan to the newly constituted Kerala are, in the first instance, required to be State Road Transport Corporation for its examined by the Public Accounts initial working capital; Rs. 6:01 lakhs for Committee of Parliament or of the State the implementation of the Special Legislature, as the case may be, and tt is on Development Programme for Fisheries ty after the Committee have looked into and Rs. 5-5 lakhs for the construction of a the facts of each case and recommended sea wall at Purakkad, Allepey District to their regularisation that the matter is combat the severe sea erosion and to brought before Parliament or the State protect the National Highway. Legislature. The Public Accounts Committee of the Kerala State Legislature The 'Charged' expenditure of Rs. 9.54 in their Second Repbrt for 1963-64, lakhs is mainly required to make recommended ithe regularisation of these payments in satisfaction of court decrees excesses. The Demands for Excess against Government in various land Grants, which would have normally been acquisition cases. presented to the State Legislature for regularisation, had to be presented to Madam, I move. Parliament under Article 205(1) (b) of the The questions were proposed. Constitution read with the Proclamation issued by the President on the 24th SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY (Madras) : March, 1965, under Article 356 of the Madam, conscious of the fact that we are Con-situation. I do not, therefore, propose racing against time, I will try to be as to take the time of the House to explain brief as possible. We have here two Bills these excesses in detail. called the Kerala Appropriation (No. 3), Bill, 1965 and the Kerala Appropriaition Madam, I move. Madam, (No. 4) Bill, 1965. In Bill No. 3 there is a demand for excess amount of Rs. 1*4 I beg to move: crores and in Bill No. 4 there is a demand for Rs. 68 lakhs. It is not at all surprising to see the Government acting like this, in "That the Bill to authorise pay-■ the name of Kerala coming out with ment and appropriation of certain demands-for fee over-expenditure that further sums from and out of the they had incurred. It is said that bad Consolidated Fund of the State of governments, when they present their Kerala for the services of the financial budgets, wantonly under-eatimate the year 1965-66, as passed by the Lok expenditure and later come to Parliament Sabha, be taken into consideration." again with *d6l Kerala Appropriation [24 SEP. 1965] Kerala Appropriatiw 5462 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965 supplementary demands. Our Gov- that they wanted in that way. And if Kerala ernment is notorious in this regard. takes up that attitude, then the other States also would follow it and the discriminatory There are a few facts which I have to put policy of the Government would certainly forward when we discuss about Kerala. lead to the disintegration of the nation. Firstly, such an advanced State is now without Another important need of Kerala is that a legislature for such a long time and there is they want to have fisheries industries. I am no guarantee from the Government how soon told that the fish available on the western they are going to hold the elections. If there is coast is far superior in quality and quantity . . no legislature there, it is not because the . people did not want it but it is because the Congress hierarchy could not have a govern- AN HON. MEMBER: Very good quality. ment of its own. So, it indulged in this sort of thing by not giving a proper legislature to the SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY ... to that people of Kerala and here, 1,400 miles away available in Norway and Japan I am also rtold from Kerala, we have to discuss the budgetary that now only one-tenth of the potential is demands of that State. tapped. The people of Kerala demand that they should , have an industry established there at a The crying needs of Kerala are two. cost of Rs. 50 crores to Rs. 61 crores. If this is One is that they want that the food ration is done, I am sure that Kerala would certainly beat increased. I am told that the people of Kerala Japan and Norway who are in the forefront of are given only six ounces of rice, whereas the this industry, and this would also go a long way other States are given more. I do not understand to meet the food shortage in that State and it can this discriminatory attitude of the Government. cater to the needs of the rest of India also. But Is it because Kerala does not produce unfortunately, the Government is not in a mood food that they are given less? If that is the to do that. It is doing something piece-meal, it theory, if that is the logic, behind this decision, is not enough. An^ the demand of the people is then there is no use of talking about the there for such a long time, and I do not find any unity of India— India, that is Bharat and all provision in these Appropriation Bills nor in the that. If this were true, thrn Kerala too has got a much-boosted Fourth Five Year Plan. claim to say that whatever it produces may not Also, recently, when there was a famine be made available to the rest of India, I remember, Madam,—On one occasion, the immediately after the monsoon period, the former Governor of Kerala, Shri Giri, made a people were not given sufficient or enough statement at Trivandrum or so in which he food by the rest of India. As a result, the said that if the rest of India was not prepared to people living in the coastal areas. I am told, ate give enough food to Kerala, then it must have some leaves and other things and there were the right to export all its exportable goods and instances of cholera and other epidemics. And get foreign exchange and with that foreign even now there is n0 attempt on the part of the exchange, the people of Kerala could purchase Government to rush food to that area and any amount of rice that they wanted. people there are under malnutrition. But instead of sending food, our Government is celebrating a mela there, a peculiar mela. You SHRI A. D. MANI (Madhya Pradesh) : Spices. , will be surprised to know what that mela is. I have got a paper with me which gives out the news. When some two weeks before there was SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: He said they a persistent cry for could get any amount of rice 4 5463 Kerala Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Kerala Appropriation 546 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965 [Shri S. S. Mariswamy.] food, the Family there should not be any discrimination Planning Department sent 60,000 'loops' there, between this political prisoner and that with another promise that they would send political prisoner. They are elected members another consignment of the same number. of the legislature. The Government had not given them an opportunity to form a ministry. SHRI LOKANATH MISRA (Orissa): A Immediately after the announcement of the long-range basis. election results, the disappointed Congress got SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY: And it angry and put them into prison. If they are appears, like the Kumbh Mela that we have accused or if they are charged that they have here, in the North, it was a "Loop Mela' there. done something which is detrimental to the And the way in which it was celebrated, it was interests of the country, it is their diity to bring something really very near 'to obscenity and them before the courts and let the courts give vulgarity. I am quoting from the paper, judgment and accordingly they can punish Madam— them, put them in prison or even send them "Young women returning home from out of the country. But they have not been colleges and offices were accosted by loud- given that right an^ now I am told reliably that speakers in the Sitreets of the capital, 'Dear they are given a very-bad treatment in jail. ladies ! a moment please!' followed by a And that is really bad. The Government has no dissertation on the latest birth control business to call itself a democratic government device, the IUCD. Three out of six pages of and also to say to the world that it has got an issue of a popular Malayalam daily were democratic socialism as its policy. This must filled with illustrations, descriptions an

5467 Kerala Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Kerala Appropriation

5469 Kerala Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Kerala Appropriation c47r) 547 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (JVo. 4) Bill. 1965 have become bankrupt by that time. Then Another matter is, hereafter we must do when they go to schools, they lose everything on a war footing. We have something—cheap and moderate living. understood what has happened to us. When India is a socialistic country, we have We were passing through a very critical to infuse in the people the feeling that we period in the history of our country and we must recognize dignity of labour. It has never have understood what it was. We cannot come. For instance, if I ask my son to do rely on outsiders. It must be possible for us to some labour, he may refuse, saying that it is stand up on our own legs. This huge below his dignity. What is below dignity? country with forty-six crores of people, Working for honest living? There must be when we want to get up and work and do some means whereby whenever a boy goes to something, I do not think that we cannot do the school, he must learn some work with what others have done already elsewhere. We which he can make a living. We must have must be prepared for any work and then we such kind of education. will find jobs. Small industries must come up in Kerala. Our State is poor in industrial We have the uplift of Harijans etc. matters. I do not want to say that we want only from among the working classes. huge industries. In Kerala, small-scale industries can come up very well. They ' are coming up. Large-scale industries are not coming up because of shortage of raw THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What are materials and proper capital. When you proposing finally? somebody wants to start some industries SHRI PALAT KUNHI KOYA: When they and applies for advice and help from de- are sent to schools, instead of improving their partments, nothing is done in time because condition it is found that the result is in the there is always delay in doing all these things. reverse direction. We must find out some A friend of mine told me that he wanted to ways whereby the children may be useful, enquire about starting a small-scale industry after they study to themselves, their families and he approached an officer. While he was and thereby to the country. discussing, the officer seems to have told him: You cannot start immediately, it will take two or three years.' Then the friend SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR (Kerala): said; 'I am not bothered, it is not for me but it The system should be changed. is for my grandson. This kind of thing SHRI PALAT KUNHI KOYA: Dignity of should end. Whatever we have to do, it must labour must impressed and recognized. Of be done in time. That is what we have to do course, we find so many black marketeers. and the Government, as I said, is doing its bit but there is not enough co-operation Who are they? They are from the middle class people who are found out of job. They are not among ths officers and persons who are fit for any big jobs or industry. Naturally they really dealing with these matters. We have to want to keep up their status and they want rectify our old machinery which has become terelene shirts and polished shoes. They will unsuitable for the present set-up. not be able to get money for these and so by With these words, I support the Bill and hook or crook they earn by black-marketing, conclude. smuggling, etc. SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: In Kerala and elsewhere especially in all Yesterday I heard with rapt attention the the schools we must have some arrangements broadcast to the nation by our beloved for the children to study for some jobs, apart Prime Minister. My heart from white collar jobs, which will be of use. 748 RS—5. 5471 Kerala Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA 1 Kerala Appropriation 5472 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965 [Shri M. N. Govindan Nair.] was filled with SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: The way pride for my country. The way in which the in which the detenus have been dealt with has entire people in this country behaved must be been reported by my friend. I have certain a matter of pride for everyone. In his speech, information about the cruel treatment. Now, he also referred to the free democracy in our this amount which is demanded is for giving country while on the other side, in Pakistan, it allowance. I know of one particular instance. was only guided democracy. To-day coming One Mr. Kurien from Kottayam is the sole here we are handed over two Bills which supporter of his family. He has only 30 cents, revive some unpleasant memories. These are of land and that too is mortgaged. It is under Bills which in the normal course the Local mortgage to the State Bank, and any moment Assembly should have dealt with. We are that land may be auctioned. Even to this day reminded of the fact that the Assembly that no family allowance has been given to him. I was elected a few months ago even before its can enumerate a number of instances like that; first sitting, was butchered and it had been the since we are pressed for time, I am not going sorry experience of our State that when the into all those things. But my point is, when conditions are such that the ruling party, I you have taken them into custody, it is the mean the Congress Party, is not assured of responsibility of the Government to deal with power, the democratic set-up in that State falls them in a fair way. Why should the Govern- down. So in one way the free democracy that ment be so mean and petty in the matter of we are enjoying is conditioned. It is giving family allowance? conditional democracy. If the ruling party is assured a majority in any State, there we can SHRIMATI DEVAKI GOPIDAS (Kerala): have a democratic set-up. So this state of Is it the hon. Member's contention that affairs must change and I am sorry to note that Government should redeem such property? the other day, in the Lok Sabha the Law Minister said that the question of immediate SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: I did not election in Kerala is ruled out. That shows the say that; I said that the family allowance approach and attitude of the Government to should be given in such a measure that they revive the domocratic set-up in Kerala. can maintain themselves. You should not behave in a mean, petty way; that is my point. Again in this Appropriation Bill some Rs. 28.000 has been allotted for giving family Then, it is very pertinent at this time to raise allowance to the detenus. My friend who this point: Why should you keep these people spoke before me mentioned about the still in jail? In January last they were arrested treatment meted out to the detenus there. and everybody knows that, at that time, there was no threat of Pakistan to our soil; not even SHRI JOSEPH MATHEN (Kerala): Is it a one sheep of the Chinese had strayed into our fact that they have gained ten pounds each? land for them to suggest that they will again SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: My attack us. Now, at such a time they were friend during these days, especially after his arrested; everybody knows why they were marriage, is behaving in a particular way and arrested. The only emergency then in the State I think he has re-started his infantile attitude. of Kerala was the recent election, when the I will not reply to him. Congress there was in a very bad shape. Now the elections are over; the Assembly has been SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: He is dismissed', and today, more than anybody his own self again? else, the 5473 Kerala Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Kerala Appropriation 5474 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965 leader of the Marxist Communist Group, the acres were taken over by these foreign General Secretary of that organisation, Mr. E. planters. So, now at least, when people in M. Sankaran Namboodiripad, has come out Kerala have not an inch of land, when more with a statement, which should be welcomed than thirty per cent are without an inch of by all. He praises the political leadership of land, should you permit them to continue the nation for sending our Armed Forces t'o with this possession? If at all they had made the soil of the enemy. He promises all kinds any investments, a thousand t;mes that of cooperation for the war effort. He has made amount has already been realised by them. So it clear that even if the Chinese come into the I feel that this is the proper time for you to picture, he will still be supporting the war r.it'onalise all these foreign plantations in effort. Under such circumstances I cannot Kerala anj you should do it in other places understand why they are still kept in jail; they also because, whenever there is some trouble should be immediately released. on the eastern border, you will have to pro- vide facilities for the foreign planters to go Then, al] the friends who spoke here back to their country, and when things get to mentioned about the particular problems of normal, they will again come back. Again Kerala. We are now the smallest State, only when there is trouble, again you will have to fourteen thousand square miles, of which provide facilities for them to go back. So why more than twenty-seven per cent are forests; should you keep these foreign plantations? the density of Kerala population is the highest The entire foreign plantations in the country in India, 1200 per square mile. Then, the should be nationalised, and apart from this peasantry, sixty per cent of them have land general reason, because of the shortage of less than one acre each, and more than thirty land in our State, in Kerala, immediate steps per cent of people are landless; they have not should be taken by the Centre, when no^ the even an inch of land to lay their heads on. In whole State is a colony of yours. So, this is such a State, are we still to allow all these the proper time when you should do this. foreign plantations to continue as they are? Whenever we speak about nationalisation, it has been the attitude of the ruling party to Then, Madam, the question of food has lend a deaf ear to it. Now I ask this question, been raised here. Well, there is a Consultative in a situation like this, when in a State more Committee for Kerala, where this question than thirty per cent of the people have not an was discussed rather in detail, and it was said inch of land, why should lakhs of acres, from that some two hundred grams of rice will be Parasala to Wynad, be still in the possession given to the people of Kerala, though the of these people? I can understand foreign demand was twelve ounces of rice. But collaboration in certain industries, where the finally, as a compromise, under the able technical know-how is not known to us. But is leadership of the Home Minister, Nandaji, it there anybody in Kerala who does not know was said that at least eight ounces should be how to grow a tea plant or rubber plant? regularly given. Now wha* is the position? Therefore there is absolutely no technical From two -hundred grams it has been reduced know-how needed from the foreigners here. to one hundred and sixty grams. Why should Further, I also remember how all this land we be discriminated against like this? Well, was acquired by these foreign companies. since we are pressed for time. I am not When they were the rulers here, they paid quoting elaborately from documents, but from nominal sums, and in some cases nothing, and the facts supplied to us by the Food Minister, acquired them, and that way lakhs of it is clear that every individual in India is en- titled to 14-5 ounces per day. Now, 5475 Kerala Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Kerala Appropriation 5476 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965 [Shri M. N. Govindan Nair.] 4-54 crores, but the anticipated expenditure is as far as rice is concerned, rice production in only Rs. 2- 88' crores. We have a coastline of this year has been 38-7 million tons, which 366 miles and one of the richest fishing was very much higher than what it was grounds in the world is in our coast. Recently previously. So there is no reason why the the Soviet experts studied the question and I people in Kerala should not get what the think the Government is in possession of their people in other States are getting, why we report. Further in their trade agreement with have to suffer like this. In order to explain it I the Soviet Union, they have specially may have to go into some detail, but she has allocated some Rs. 40 crores or so for helping warned me even outside the House that I us in developing fisheries. So all these should not take much time. So I shall not go possibilities are there. There is the necessary into that, the .present system whereby the foreign exchange available. There is the single zone has been introduced. Without the presence of rich fishing grounds. Still the Government taking the necessary quantity Government has been indifferent in this from the surplus States it would not be matter as is shown by the fact, that even the possible for the Government *o supply to amount allotted in the Third Plan has not been deficit States like Kerala. And in the matter of properly spent. I do not know what will be the procurement, you know, Government did not fate of fisheries in the Fourth Plan. Anyway, it succeed. Even though the quota fixed was 19- is calculated that if Rs. 50 crores are invested, 5 million tons or so to be procured from the you will be able to develop this industry or at surplus States, the Government was able to pr least your catch will increase by 5, lakh tons. "ure only a little over 14 million tons. So un- You are always in need of foreign exchange. less you have a proper piocurement policy, By developing this industry, not only will the and unless the Centre takes the responsibility people of Kerala be benefited, but your of feeding us and ill other deficit States—like foreign exchange earnings also will increase. Kerala— things will go from bad to worse. So The foreign exchange needed for developing "* would request that the Government should this industry so that the catch may go up to 5 immediately, take stops to restore at least the lakh tons is Rs. 30-78 crores. But within this 200 grams that was previously given to us. period of five years, you will be able to have and also to see that we also get the same an earning of Rs. 79- 56 crores by way of quantity to which each is entitled according to foreign exchange. So even from that point of the production figures of the Government view, even if you ignore the plight of Kerala, itself. at least from your own self-interest of earning foreign exchange, top priority should be given THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have to the development of the fishing industry and taken fifteen minutes, Mr. Govindan Nair. I believe the Government will give due consideration to this aspect of the matter. SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: In this Bill, some amount has been allotted for fisheries. Coming to the question of fisheries, (Time bell rings.) I would like to draw your attention to one point. My point is this. I am not quoting. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have Some money was allotted during the Third taken 20 minutes and we should finish this Plan for the developing of fisheries in the soon, because there are two more State. If I remember correctly it was more Appropriation Bills. than Rs. 4 crores, but even half that amount jj SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: I am was not expended. Yes, I find that the taking the two together. allocation was Rs. 5477 Kerala Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Kerala Appropriation 5478 (No. 3} Bill. 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965 THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This is about bers have raised a number of points about Kerala. There are two more Appropriation Kerala. Most of these have been raised Bills, general. before, and only recently in the Consultative Committee of the Members of Parliament we had a full discussion for two days one of SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: The which was exclusively devoted to the difficulty, Madam, is there is no Assembly problems of Kerala. I am in agreement but now where these could be discussed. Anyway, also in great sympathy with the sentiments I will only just point out how the Government expressed by hon. Members. has been indifferent with regard to the food shortage and other matters. About food [THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M. P. shortage, I have already spoken. But in the BHARGAVA) in the Chair.] matter of increasing the food production, that the Government has been very indifferent is There are, these problems which require to be proved by the fact that out of a sum of Rs. 3T dealt with. For example, there is the question 72 crores set apart for agricultural of the reorientation of the educational policy programmes, they have succeeded in spending so as to provide more gainful employment to only Rs. 24.42 crores. Then again, with regard the educated people. This is being done in the to irrigation, Rs. I.1-42 crores have been set Fourth Plan. This is of great and urgent apart, but they have spent only Rs. 8-91 importance in a State like Kerala which has crores. With regard to manures, our peasants the highest percentage of literacy and instead are prepared to use any kind of scientific of giving the people general education, the manure that may be supplied to them. There is education should be more crop-oriented Op now a -hue and cry in that State that the FACT more vocation-oriented so that they are able has failed to supply manure for the paddy to stand on their own legs. This is being cultivation, and the Central Government has done. also failed to transfer at least manure from other places so that the cultivation may take Then a point was made about the family allowances to the detenus. As hon. Members place at least as it has been done during the previous years. And then about dairying and know, the Government has accepted the other things, there also Kerala is the State prniciple of giving family allowances to the which produces the least quantity of milk. Just family of those detenus who are the sole two ounces per capita is the production of bread-earners, and so far, out of 144 cases of milk in Kerala and even though money is detenus examined, 54 have been given family being spent, it is not spent for increasing the allowances. production of milk but only for the collection SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): and distribution of the milk. Some special em- May I interrupt for just one second? This phasis has to be laid on this matter also. figure that the hon. Minister is giving was Unfortunately the time available is short, even given to me by Shri Ajit Prasad Jain several though there are so many other things which months ago when he was here, and some of have to be brought to the notice of this House them are getting only Rs. 50 and a little more. and I have to cut short my remarks. Thank you Now this is the position. What is the very much, Madam, for this much of time that improvement since then? In Madras which is you have allowed me. not far from Kerala, it has been written in their rules and regulations that Rs. 100 of THE MINISTER OF PLANNING (SHRI family allowance should be given to every B. R. BHAGAT): Madam Deputy Chairman, detenu, even if he is a Member of Parliament. I am glad hon. Mem- SHRI S. S. MARISWAMY (Madras): Even Rs. 150. 5479 Kerala Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Kerala Appropriation 5480 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (Wo. 4) Bill, 1965 SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: The rates vary from present because many of the points raised by fifty rupees to one hundred and fifty rupees. my friends here relate to subjects under the control of the Home Ministry or with which SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: That is all the Minister is connected? Now I can right, the rates are there . . . understand his difficulty. How can he answer SHRI B. R-. BHAGAT: They vary. all that? The Kerala Assembly is not there and it is all the more reason why Government SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: Don't should come prepared to listen to what we say follow the Chinese example of accepting the and try to answer the points raised here rather principle and not following it. than leaving the whole thing to the Planning Minister and Minister in the Ministry of SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: The amount Finance to deal with. Is it fair to do like this? sanctioned varies from fifty rupees to one What would the people of Kerala think when hundred and fifty rupees and I can certainly they see how Parliament is dealing now with . . . these things, when Parliament does not even produce a full-size Cabinet Minister to speak SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: How many are on this subject in reply to the debate? We getting one hundred rupees only? have got nothing against him. Today is the last day. Otherwise, I would have demanded SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: I do not have the that directions be given to the Government figure. that when the Kerala matters come up, at least SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Mr. Vice- some responsible Cabinet^ Minister would be Chairman, this is the difficulty. I am not present to deal with this matter. wanting to ask a. question of the hon. Minister. SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (Uttar Pradesh): Mr. Vice-Chairman, SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Let me I also support the view expressed by -omplete it. ■ , Mr. Bhupesh Gupta. It is very un fortunate that the Home Minister SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I want to make or any of his deputies should a submission irrespective of it. not be present here while Kerala is being discussed. This is not only a SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Certain vidual cases have also been mentioned. I will set to the people of Kerala, pass on all for the consideration of the Home ignoring thus their claims, but it is Minister. a disrespect to this House and the whole or Parliamentary procedure. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: On a point of When we are discussing the fate of a order, Sir. particular State and Parliament has taken over this responsibility upon SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: They are looking itself, the Home Minister should have into it. been present to reply to such of the points which are raised here in the SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: May I make a House and I hope that you will kind submission? It is a point of order. The ly ask the Government to send difficulty here is one which you will kindly for the Home Minister or his deputies consider. Kerala does not have a Legislative to be present here in the House. Assembly and these Bills in the nature of Budgets really are being discussed here where THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M.' P. all questions relating to Kerala come and it is BHARGAVA): Yes, Mr. Bhagat, please the Home Minister who really deals with such convey the sentiments to the Home Minister. matters. Is it not proper for the Home Minister to be 5481 Kerala Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Kerala Appropriation 5482 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965 SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Yes, Sir, I will do SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: At least I am not that. bluffing.

I have got the list hurriedly from the SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You are not. officials . . . Government is the greatest 'bluffer. SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: I am sorry to say SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: How many are that the hon. Member takes everything the getting one hundred and fifty rupees? other way. I offer to give him all the information and he reacts in a manner. SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: The number of people getting more than one hundred rupees SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Then will you not give any information? is four or five. SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: The best course SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Then we can would have been for me to plead that I do not understand this. Have you understood him, have the information, I am sorry. Sir? Therefore, I say that the Home Minister should be present here. He said, fiftyfour are SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: The getting the allowances and when I asked for Minister has misunderstood the point. He the number of people getting more than one did not say ... . hundred or who are getting one hundred and SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: . It is strange. fifty rupees, he says only four or five. He says that the best thing would be to plead lack of information. It is like saying, I have SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Some are getting become honest but some people raise some seventy rupees. doubt and, therefore, I should be dishonest. Is that an argument? SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: But only four are getting one hundred rupees. SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Anyway, the hon. Member can have his own views. That is the information that I have and I have given him. SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: But there is no wrong impression that i have created. A point was about fisheries. I entirely agree with the hon. Member that it is very important and I completely endorse his SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: The views. The Soviet experts have also said this Finance Minister should know that because of and the result of the oceanographic study and the high prices, this fifty rupees . . . survey indicates that the Indian Ocean, particularly that portion which is between SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: I am not creating Africa and the West Coast ... any wrong impression. SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: The Arabian SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: We have called Sea. off the bluff by an interrogation. ■ SHRI B. R. BHAGAT:...... SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: The hon. Member has the largest potential for fisheries in the wanted the figures and when I tell him that world. There is no doubt ahout that and I this is the information .... think it should be our endeavour to exploit it. Apart from providing good protern foods not SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: All right, Mr. only for the whole country belt also for Vice-Chairman, I am not blaming him at all. Kerala which needs it, this Why should he take it a miss? ^83 Kerala Appropriation [RAJYA SABHAJ Kerala Appropriation 5484 (Wo. 3) Bill, 1965 < Wo. 4) Bill, 1965 (Shri B. R. Bhagat.) to know what difficulty Government had has a very rich potential of exports. Therefore, encountered in nationalising the foreign every effort should be made to tap it and plantations in Kerala. we are giving this very high priority, in fact the highest priority. Already efforts are SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: That is a question being made to develop this potential not only of policy. by having mechanisation of fisheries or going in for deep sea fishing hut also by having THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M. P. facilities for refrigeration, marketability and so BHARGAVA): That is a question of policy. on so that as a project this should be exploited How can he deal with it? The question is: to the fullest extent. It is a fact that in the Third Plan, something was left out and the "That the Bill to provide for the money could not be utilised but that was be- authorisation of appropriation of moneys cause we originally thought of having a deep- out of the Consolidated Fund of the State sea fishing unit at Cochin and io develop our of Kerala to meet the amounts spent on activities there. We have now got the help certain services during the financial year of foreign agencies and we will exploit fully ended on the 31st day of March, 1962, in this potential in the coming years and I hope excess of the amounts granted for those what could not be achieved in the earlier services and for that year, as passed by the years will be more than made up in the Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration." coming years and we are at it. I can only The motion was adopted. assure the hon. Members that we are at it. Similarly, some of the refrigeration industries like the ice factories and others could not be THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M. P. fully developed but now we are at it and BHARGAVA): We shall now take up the Government has undertaken a number of clause by clause consideration of the Bill. proposals for ice factories, net making plants, Clauses 2 and 3 and the Schedule were central fishery establishment, etc., in addition to added to the Bill. developing port facilities and fishery reels. Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: Title were added to the Bill. According to Government, the main thing is SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Sir, I move-. that they could not get these marine diesel engines. Now, the Defence Ministry is "That the Bill be returned." planning to start a factory and Kerala has this The question was put and the motion was facility for fishing. Will you kindly see that in the Fourth Plan the marine diesel factory is adopted. started there? THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA): The question is: SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Whatever leeway there has been, we will make it up. This has "That the Bill to authorise payment and been given the topmost priority, that I can appropriation of certain further sums from assure him. With these words, Sir, I commend and out of the Consolidated Fund of the the Bill. State of Kerala for the services of the finan- cial year 1965—68, as passed by the Lok SHRI M. N. GOVINDAN NAIR: I raised Sabha, be taken into consideration." another point to which he has not replied. The motion was adopted. One point was, I wanted THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA): We shall now take 5485 Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Appropriation 5486 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill. 1965 up the clause by clause consideration ae Bill. ness Allowance and for making payments of Customs Duty on Naval Stores imported Clauses 2 and 3 and the Schedule were during the year 1964-ba. The Revised added to the Bill. Estimates, 1964-65 oaied on the anticipation that the additional expenditure involved would Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the be met from savings within the Grant proved Title were added to the Bill. inadequate and as it was too late to obtain a SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Sir, I move: Supplementary Grant, an advance of Rs. 1.5 crores was obtained from the Contingency "That the Bill be returned." Fund of India which would now be recouped The question was put and the motion was to the Fund. adopted. Hon. Members will, I am sure, welcome India's participation in the Global Commercial Communications Satellite System which will THE APPROPRIATION (No. 3) BILL, 1965 provide the most modern and efficient means of communications. The Government • of India THE APPROPRIATION (No. 4) BILL, 1965 have signed an agreement along with 44 other countries for capital participation to the extent THE DEPUTY MINISTER iN THE of 0.5 per cent of the total estimated cost of the MINISTRY OF FINANCE (SHRI Satellite System. India's share of capital RAMESHWAR SAHU): Sir, on be-hall of participation in the Satellite System is estimated Shri T. T. Krishnamachari, I move: at Rs. 47 lakhs. The expenditure will be spread "That the Bill to authorise payment and over three years, the requirement for the current appropriation of certain further sums from year being Rs. 16.15 lakhs. and out of the Consolidated Fund of India The setting up of the Institute of for the services of the financial year 1965- Mass Communication account for an 66, as passed by the Lok Sabha, be taken additional provision of Rs. 8.85 lakhs. into consideration." The Institute, which will undertake The Bill arises out of the Supplementary training of the State and Central Gov Demands of Rs. 175 lakhs voted by the Lok ernment officers of the Information Sabha on the 13th September, 1965, and the and Publicity Departments, is an aut expenditure of Rs. 12,000 charged on the onomous organisation under the Mi Consolidated Fund of India as detailed in the nistry of Information and Broad Supplementary Demands presented to the casting. • House on the 18th August, 1965. Detailed explanations in support of the Demands have, On the Capital side, Supplementary as usual, been given in the foot-notes below Demands have been asked for the purchase of the Supplementary Demand Statements. I shares of the Triveni Structural Private Ltd., would, therefore, confine myself to a few and for increased expenditure on the Capital introductory remarks on some of the major Works Programme of the Posts and Tele- items for which additional provision is graphs Department. A token vote of Rs. 1,000 required. each is being sought as the entire expenditure is likely to be met from the anticipated A supplementary provision of Rs. 1.5 savings available within the respective crores has been sought mainly for expenditure Grants. in respect of civilian employees and the service personnel of the Indian Navy on The Heavy Structurals Project at Naini, account of the upward revision in the rates of near , is being set up in Dear- collaboration with Messrs. VOEST of Austria. An, agreement was signed 5487 Appropriation \ RAJYA SABHA ] Appropriation 5488 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) BUI, 1965 [Shri Rameshwar Sa'hu.] by the Committee and it is only after the Committee Government of India on the 30th June, 1965 have looked into the facts of each case and under which Messrs. VOEST of Austria recommended their regularisation that the would participate in the equity capital to the matter is brought before Parliament. The Pub- extent of 49 per cent. Messrs. VOEST would lic Accounts Committee have, in then- also render assistance in planning, design and Thirtieth and Thirty-first Reports presented to construction of the factory, training of Indian Parliament on the 23rd December, 1964 and technical personnel, and in production. 19th February, 1965 respectively, recommended the regularisation of these The additional requirements for the Capital excesses. I do not,, therefore, propose to take Works Programme of the Posts and the time of the House to explain these Telegraphs Department arose as a result of excesses in detail. expeditious procurement of equipment and material with the help of credit from International Development Association and Hon. Members may well enquire why these accelerated progress of work. The increased excesses arise and why they cannot be expenditure was met partly from the savings avoided. The payments on Government available within the Grant and for the balance account are made by a large number of an advance of Rs. 1.8 crores was obtained disbursing officers spread all over the country from the Contingency Fund of India, which and usually there is a time-lag of a few will now be resumed to the Fund. months before the transactions relating to each Grant can be collated and brought to Sir, I also move: account against the sanctioned Grant or "That the Bill to provide for the Appropriation. It does happen sometimes that authorisation of appropriation of moneys towards the close of the year, either as a result out of the Consolidated Fund of India to of inevitable payments or book adjustments meet the amounts spent on certain services made by the Accounts Officers, the Grant for during the financial year ended on the 31st the year is exceeded, but these excesses come day of March, 1963 in excess of the to notice when it is too late to go in for amounts granted for those services and for additional provision. Such excesses are, that year, as passed by the Lok Sabha, be however, rare as is evident from the fact that taken into consideration." out of a total of 151 Grants and Appropriations for the year 1962-63, excesses The Bill arises out of the Demands for occurred under 18 Grants only and constitute Excess Grants relating to the year 1962-63, about 0.2 per cent, of the total sanctioned voted by the Lok Sabha on the 13th Grants and Appropriation for the year. September, 1965 and the expenditure charged Nevertheless, I would like to assure the House on the Consolidated Fund of India and that every possible effort is made to avoid or incurred in excess of the sanctioned reduce such excesses to the minimum. appropriations for that year. The reasons which led to the excesses have been explained in the foot-notes below each Demand or The questions were proposed. Appropriation in the Statement of Demands for Excess Grants which has already been SHRI SUNDAR MANI PATEL (Orissa): circulated to the hon. members. Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, India is passing through a series of ordeals, both external and As the House is aware, these excesses are, internal. Time has come to give a serious in the first instance, required to be examined thought over these events the country has by the Public Accounts been facing. 5489 Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Appropriation 5490 (iVo. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill 1965 Now, it is evident from the present suffered to its fullest extent after India got a happenings in the world relating to Indo- setback with humiliation at the hands of the Pakistan conflict that Pakistan is dancing to Chinese in 1962. It is not forgotten yet, it is the tune of China. still fresh that even the Colombo Powers had no courage to speak the truth as to who was In view of this fact I urge upon the the aggressor. Even in the present Indo-Pak authorities with whom the destiny of this sub- conflict many of these countries have exposed continent rests to be guidod to reorient our themselves as to whether they are our friends foreign policy as well as the home policy or the friends of Pakistan. Keeping in view all keeping in view the self sufficiency in food this background, we have to reorient our within the country. foreign policy, which will definitely comply with the aspirations of the large or small, Sir, the other day when the Prime Minister strong or weak, every country in Asia to made a statement on the floor of this august preserve its. independence and sovereignty on House in regard to China's contemplated terms of equality. Under the present aggression against India on some pretext, I circumstances, I take the opportunity to found something very important and vital in suggest that we should not close our eyes to his statement. The Prime Minister observed: those countries like Formosa, which will be our real friend, to fight the common enemy, "To justify its aggressive attitude, China Red China, and hence let us extend diplomatic is pretending to be a guardian of Asian relations with Formosa, as Rama did with countries who according to China are being Sugriv. bullied by India. Surely, the basic object of China, therefore, is to claim for itself a Lastly, I would like to say one tiling, that position of dominance in Asia which no no quantum of any acreage of land or any self-respecting nation in Asia is prepared amount of currency notes, but the restoration to rec'ognise. of the chunk of territory that we have lost to the enemies only will console the grief beaten "Large or small, strong or weak, every hearts of those whose beloved ones have laid country in Asia has the fullest right to down their precious lives for the defence and preserve its independence and sovereignty to uphold the dignity and prestige of our on terms of equality. The dominance of sacred land. China cannot be accepted by any one of SHRI MAHESH SARAN (Bihar): Mr. them. . .". Vice-Chairman, I take this opportunity to draw the attention of the Government to our I congratulate him for his clear stand. But naval require ments. Just after this great there is a great task before us to make China trouble that we had, our minds are vexed as to understand this fact ad reality. how to defend our country if the need arises again. Now, so far as the Air Force and the Prior to the last Chinese aggression against ground force are concerned, we have done India, every country in Asia, especially the very well. Our jawans have given a very good South-East and Middle East countries, had a account of themselves. It means th'U our hope to get guidance from India to achieve defence requirements as regards the air force this goal. But this hope of these countries andi gnound force, though they require great gradually declined because of our improvements, have stood the test admirably hobnobbing and establishing 'Hindi Chini well. The question is what is our position -and Bhai-Bhai' with China during the regime whether we are in a headed by the late Prime Minister and subsequently this hope

5491 Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA ] Appropriation 5492 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (Wo. 4) Bill. 1965

[Shri Mahesh Saran.] position to put up a ject and if there is the least danger of lack of good defence if there is any trouble on the willing co-operation or deliberate delays or seas. withholding of supplies they should take immediate steps to make alternative arrange- Now, Sir, so far as our Navy is concerned, ments, so that the build-up of our Naval recent events have rc-emphasised the need for forces is not endangered. a planned strengthening of our National Similar remarks apply to the procurement forces. China and Indonesia have good and or construction in this country of Other types fair-sized navies and submarines which are of naval craft. The more modern fighter capable of operating in our waters. The 'aircraft needed to improve the striking power threatening attitude of China and Indonesia of the aircraft carrier "Vikrant" should be makes this expansion urgently necessary. furnished without delay. Moreover, the Navy has to ensure that our trade routes are maintained free from enemy In the end, I wish to say that the present interference. It would be wrong, in viow of total dependence on foreign sources for the the present experience, to continue in the fond supply of armaments and equipment for our hope that our friends would help. We have to ships may have dire consequences in an take steps to see that our lifeline is kept open. emergency. Efforts should be made to develop capacity within the country for these We have ports at Bombay, Visakha- items as rapidly as possible. Surely some patham, Coohin, Madras, Goa and Kandla. degree of co-ordination is possible and We must strengthen these ports. Today the desirable between the three Services. It is Navy is composed mainly of old ships, which unders'ood that Ordnance Factories played an are in need of replacement. The cruiser important part in Australia in the construction "Delhi" is over thirty years old. While the of naval ships, by supplying guns, machinery exact type of ships to be obtained or built is a and the like. The Ordnance Factories jn India matter for the Naval staff to decide, it is clear and our well-established private industries that the Navy should no longer be heated as a could do a great deal to help in the early step-child. realisation of these wishes. This aspect should be carefully examined by Government now, Apart from the additions to the fighting in view of the danger of relying on other", strength of the Navy, it should have adequate sources from abroad in such vitai matters. repair and operating bases. In this context, bearing in mind the passible threats, the island We realise that defence expenditure is making serious inroads into our plans for bases in the Andamans and the Laccadives should be developed rapidly. A repair base on economic betterment. Well, it may be a the.East Coast is also necessary to serve the blessing in disguise. It may teach us to rely on our own efftrts and the industrial potential Bay of Bengal. This should receive our highest priority. thus creeled will, without doubt, assist our economic plans as well. It is necessary, now Sir, the attitude of the British Government, that the threat by China is there, that special I am sorry to say, during the recent conflict attention should be paid to strengthening our with Pakistan has caused misgivings about Navy and that is the reason why I have made their future help in the programme of these remarks. construction of frigates in the Mazagaon docks. The programme is of vital importance SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): to the Navy and the Government should Mr. Vice-Chairman, I am glad that this carefully re-examine 1his pro- occasion has teen used for discussing some rather important 5493 Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Appropriation 5494 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (Wo. 4) Sill 1965 and pressing general national questions. I SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: We want to should like to bepin my speech with a matter see this. seemingly nanor but not so minor in its imp)icai:ons. Sir, I have been informed by SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: Is very reliable people that at the request of the there any dead line? U.S. Embassy in New Delhi, the Patton tank SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I do not which was being shown on the L.I.C. ground believe in ultimatum. But it would be good if has been removed t o the Red Fort. As you it is done by this weekend, by tomorrow, so know, it was brought there to be displayed to that people can come. the people and many people went and saw it. The next day the American Embassy raised Mr. Vice-Chairman, one another thing objections, took up the matter with the I should like to mention because this is the Government of India and the Government of last occasion. When we went to the Prime India obliged them by removing the Patton Minister's meeting, my esteemed friend, tank from the public view to the Red Fort. I Mr. Vajpayee, was also there on the 6th of therefore demand that the Patton tank be September. The Prime Minister, as replaced where it was, on the L.I.C. ground. I you know, invited the leaders of parties not demand that if if is available, it should be only in Parliament but leaders who are brought back. Everything of that type should not in Parliament, and on behalf of some of be on display. Well, that does not speak well us we made a suggestion that in this situation of the Government. when the nation is united to a man, as a gesture, all political prisoners, whether dete- 1 Another thing I should like to bring to the nus or others, be released, a genera amnesty notice of the Government. There is an be declared. Now we fina that that has not American correspondent whose visa was to been done. Not only that has not been expire, and the Government decided earlier done, but even the Government's assurance in that his visa should not be extended on ac- regard to certain other political prisoners count of his systematic anti-Indian activities, who had been arrested in connection with the and once I think the UP. Government had also food movement Ras not been carried out. something to do against him. As he was about You will remember, Sir, that in this to leave, suddenly the Ministry got in- very House Mr. Subramaniam, while formation from somewhere, and the Ministry replying to the Food Debate, virtually read of Information and Broadcasting got advice out the Government decision that it had been from the External Affairs that the Government decided that the State Governments should had decided to extend his visa. The whole release all those who had been arrested in thing is well known to the Government, the connection with the food agitation or food Departments and the Ministries concerned. movement, whatever y°u may call it. That These two small examples I have given only promise solemnly given has not been imple- to show how even now after being treated in mented here. And in Bihar today this manner with sabre jets and Patton tanks, thousands of people are still in jail or arrested our Ministries in New Delhi function as far as in connection with food movement the Americans are concerned. But I again despite the assurance of the Government. repeat that the Patton tank must be there ori Here I should like to invite your attention to the L.I.C. ground. a statement issued by Shri Ramanand Tiwari, President of the Bihar S.S.P., Shri SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE (Uttar Jaganath Sarkar, Acting Secretary, Bihar Pradesh): Why? State Council of the Communist Party—he has now been arrested—and Shri Gurubachan Singh of the Revolutionary Socialist Party. The statement was issued on the 13th 3495 Appropriation [RAJYA SAtJrlA J Appropriation 5490 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill. 1965 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] September in which Halim, M.L.C., and 37 others who had been they say inter alia: arrested recently in August in connection with the tramfare resistance movement under the "When the Government of India has D.I.R. Shri Prafulla Sen said that they would advised all the State Governments to be released. ■ I asked Shri Prafulla Sen: "Can release the food agitators recently arrested I tell it to the press?" He said: "Yes, you could and the various State Governments are give it to the press". We said those things to responding to this appeal, the Bihar the press. Not only that, again I asked Shri Government far from declaring amnesty to Prafulla Sen: "Can I meet Shri and over 4000 people who were arrested in the tell him?" Then on the telephone he made recent agitation is engaged in making fresh arrangements for our interview Shri Jyoti arrests every day. Many of those who were Basu in the Presidency Jail. He himself did it, ordered by law courts to be released on bail and in a matter of hours we saw him and are being detained under D.I.R. Those who communicated to him what Shri Prafulla Sen are being released from detention because had said, the Chief Minister of West Bengal. their order of detention was bad, are being He said they would be released. Not only have sent back to jail from the jail gate itself they not been released but others are being with fresh orders of detention. Communist arrested. This is the situation. You will be legislators like Messrs. Sunil Mukherjee, sorry to hear that in West Bengal and other Indradeep Sinha, Suraj Prasad, Basta Soren, places members of the minority community Rajkumar Purbey and Tejnarain Jha were belonging to our Party, for whom I can released on the Hth September, because the personally vouch, whose records should really High Court was sure to order their release be a pride to anyone who loves our secular for the same reason for which Shri Ram State—whatever other differences you may Manohar Lohia was released by the have, when this emergency developed, they Supreme Court, but all of them were served were taken into custody. Ghulam Mohiuddin. with fresh detention orders at the' jail gate Secretary of our party in Hooghly, well- itself." known for his activities, secular, democratic, anti-communal activities, was taken into This is the situation. We have taken up the custody under the D.I.R. I would not have said matter with the Home Ministe and we r if I thought that he was a questionable person. propose to take it up with the Prime Minister I know what I am speaking. Then Dr. Yazdani also. I have been in touch with the Bihar Chief of Malda, an independent M.L.A. of the West Minister, written to him, and the matter is Bengal Assembly is sought under the D.I.R. being taken up by all parties, many parties although he had written immediately the there also. Why is this asssurance not being emergency started that he would like to rejoin carried out? Mr. Subramaniam said that a the Armed Forces because he had served as a radio message had been sent and so on to medical Captain in the Armed Forces. Many release them. That was on the 10th. Today is others are ; arrested in this manner. the 24th. Nothing has been done. Pressure had taken place. On the 13th of this month, Mr. Vice-Chairman, Comrade Somanath Lahiri, I am glad that Shri Nanda said that he leader of our group in the West Bengal would look into it. But it is a matter of policy. Assembly, and I met the Chief Minister of I am not saying which party, any party West Bengal and represented the case of Shri responsible and secular; if they satisfy the Jyoti Basu, Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Government and if they go and tell the Abdul 5497 Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Appropriation 5498 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1985 the Government, if they vouch for the prosecution takes place. Otherwise, it is a very integrity of such members of the minority serious thing. That is what I would like to say. community, the Government should accept it. After all, we are a .secular State. Let President I told Shri Prafulla Sen and Shri Shiv Nath Ayub Khan arrest people, as he will, we Lahiri, "We vouch for them. If anything is know, on the more ground that some people wrong, we are responsible for it." What else belong to the minority community in East could we say? But he is laughing. Now, he Bengal. That is his habit, that is his way of takes Tt as fun. Everything is fun for him. administration. But why should it be so in our Now, what else could we say? I said" to Mr. case? Therefore, it is not a question, of Sen, "You have got your reports, perhaps looking into the individual cases that we bring police reports. But take our evidence also. We to the notice of the Government. The entire repudiate me suggestion of suspicion. Well, administration at the district level, the State you consider it." I hope that every single level and other levels should be alerted that person will be released and here once again, I nothing .should be done because, well, we demand the general release of all the political cannot repay the martyrs in the Kashmir front detenus and others in the country. There is not by any indiscreet and unwise act of this kind a single party, no one in the country who is towards members of the minorities just not with the Armed Forces and for the cause because some employers have a grudge of defence. And I am surprised. Shri against them or that some officers do not like Namboodripad made a statement. He paid a them or that some Ministers do not like them tribute to the political leaders also while or that they may belong to certain opposition supporting the Government in the matter of parties. defence, which I would have hesitated. You see, I am a little ungenerous in such matters. So far as defence is concerned, there is an Even Shri Namboodripad paid a tribute not item about defence. Here I hould like to say only to the Armed Forces but to the political that defence we want. The Minister should leaders also, it is not that they do not deserve be . . . some praise and publicly it was made. But THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI M. P. here is this situation. Why are you keeping BHARGAVA): You have to make another them? Would it not be better for us to show speech also. that we are all united, that some of the differences are gone, and now today all the SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: No, I am not parties, all the political forces in the country making another one. Oh! the other one? I will stand broadly united despite other differences not make it, this is the only one speech you with regard to many matters internally. I think are quite right. I am cutting out that portion. Government should reconsider this oosition. I am inviting the attention of the House to an American magazine called 'Time', dated I would again beg that this should be taken up the 10th September this year. In a foot-note, seriously by the Prime Minister. It will it is said: bring credit to us. [ And as far as the minorities are concerned, I would not like a 'Pakistan has received some 5 single member of the minority to be prosecuted billions . . ." on more suspicion unless there is I Not million, but billion something very basic and important. | And these things should be properly ' gone into by "... in US aid; about dollars 15 billion of the Government before ! aid in military hardware. Of the dollars 5.2 billion India has received from the USA, virtually none has been of a military nature."

5499 Appropriation (No. 3) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Appropriation (No 4) < 1965 ' ^ [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] Now, this is the kind Pakistan is depedent on American and British of military aid that Pakistan has received, supplies, for oil and so on. They stopped according to a paper which is very supply to both. In other words, they wanted friendly to Pakistan. In fact, there are that the disparities or whatever the situation many things said against India here, but had been created should be maintained. That friendly to Pakistan. And that paper reveals is to say, Pakistan would have dollars 1.5 this thing. Now, you can understand what billion worth of arms in their hands, given by kind of a military build-up has taken America. India would have practically none. place. As against that, we have got some And under aid and under commercial terms arms from America and Britain on whatever is made available should not be used commercial terms and also under a certain against Pakistan, under the agreement of agreement in 1962-63. What is this thing? We 1962-63. Such was the situation. cannot use them. We are under an obligation to Therefore, what we need today, I think, is the Americans and the British not to use them an independent defence potential. India, in against Pakistan. We can use them only matters of defence, must be absolutely against China, not against any other independent and strong. It is good that we nation; even if America attacks us we cannot- have Gnats. Suppose we do not ha.e the Gnats use them, but we can use them only against and like industries in and other China. The result was, during this places, what would have happened to us, you emergency, well, the Indian Government can understand. Therefore, we have been thought it fit—we do not share their views— to amply rewarded. We wish we had more of keep to that agreement and they could not use these things. Therefore, I only stress this point these modern weapons that were received before I finish that here we must be absolutely from America against the Pakistani forces. independent in the matter of defene'e. We When the report appeared what happened have to strengthen our defence, but in Britain? They started demanding or strenthening ou defence means not onlv the discussing the question of inspection. One of r allocation of funds under the Budget; it also the agreements of 1962-63 stipulates that the means. above all, making defence absolutely British would have the right to inspect the use self- sufficient and independent so that of arms, and the British Government wanted nobody is in a position to erente a jam in any to have that inspection. The matter was situation. being discussed. Not only that. They decided that no arms should be sent and certain things [THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the were stopped in the high seas; certain Chairl consignments to be loaded were not loaded. Finally'—I mentioned in another And these reports appeared in the papers. connection—I demand the withdrawal of Further, they wanted the return of these India from the British Commonwealth of arms because some of these arms came as Nations. .1 am very glad to hear that Shri a kind of loan and as something, and they a Bhagwat Jha Azad has moved Resolution decided to ask for the return of the British somewhere else demanding this thing. It has arms: The same thing was happening in the come from the Congress Benches, and I United States of America. And what did congratulate the memhers of he Congress America do? They said, we stop supplies to Party who have raised this demand. Today, I both. I have just read out to you that thi^k, there is no more dis-ussion needed. Mr. actuary thev have given very little to us. Wilson has made it abundantly clear by his Everything they have given to Pakistan. For word

5501 Appropriation [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Appropriation 5502 (No, 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965 critical period, our association with the Session, will be considered seriously by the Commonwealth is the greatest of infamy that Government and necessary steps would be could happen, it is absolutely harmful to us, taken. and they want to utilise the association of India with the Commonwealth, India's membership Once again, before I sit down. I would like of the Commonwealth, for raising their moral to say that I would like to go and see the prestige in other countries. Such is the Patton tank in the LLC. Ground. situation. We gained nothing from it whereas it gained in moral prestige. And strangely SHRI LOKANATH MISRA (Orissa): enough, Shri Krishnamaehari last year agreed Madam Deputy Chairman, we are short of to the setting up of a Commonwealth time and I have realised it. I would not have Secretariat which is intended to consolidate liked to intervene in this debate unless there this shoddy facade of Commonwealth was something very special to mention. This mechanism. is in connection with the Auditor General's Report which has been placed yesterday on Madam Deputy Chairman, I think before the Table of the Vidhan Sabha in Orissa. It the year is out and before the leaves of autumn was a privileged document till it was placed fall, we shouid be out of this Commonwealth on the Table of the Vidhan Sabha of Orissa. and this demand I make here because I wanted Now it has been placed there. There has been to do it. publication in the newspapers regarding the contents which are said to be very much ad- And finally, . . . verse against certain industries in Orissa. I would like the Government to place a copy of THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gupta, that Report on the Table of this House for the please. Let 'finally' be short information of the Members. The Prime SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You were not Minister was good enough . . . here. Finally . . . THE MINISTER OF PLANNING (SHRI B. R. BHAGAT): What? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: But I have heard all that you have said. SHRI LOKANATH MISRA: It is an assurance of the Prime Minister. Why does SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I do not like the Finance Minister not understand what the this thing. You can say how long 1 have to Prime Minister assured us? It was an speak. assurance of the Prime Minister the other day that once he finds anything adverse in the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There are Auditor General's Report, he would take other speakers also. There is then the other definite action against the persons who are discussion. You began at 1.40 and you are responsible. still speaking. SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Was it an assurance SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: What is the 'hat he will place it on the Table of the time now? All right. Madam, as far as the House? excess grant is concerned, I do not wish to say much. This should have been brought earlier. SHRI LOKANATH MISRA: Unless it is Two years is too much time. Therefore, when placed on the Table of the House, how would you ask for excess grants, one should not wait Members know what is in. it? for two years. SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: It is never done, As far as the other things are concerned, unless you interpret that way that it is an they are very, very important that way. But I assurance. do hope that rhe suggestions that we have made today because today is the last day of the 748 RS—6 5503 Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA] Appropriation 5504 (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill. 1965 SHRI LOKANATH MISRA: Therefore, I would request the hon'ble Finance Minister who is present here to kindly place a copy of it on +he Table of the Rajya Sabha for the information of Members. I would never expect the Prime Minister to go back on his words. He had assured this House and the other House as well, Parliament as a whole, that a serious view would be taken if there was any adverse comments on the action of these industries vis-avis their trade with the Government of Orissa.

5505 Appropriation [24 SEP. 1965] Appropriation 5506 (No. 3) Bill, 1&65 (No. 4) Bill, 1965

5507 Appropriation [RAJYA SABHA] Appropriation 550R (No. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 1965

t[ ] Hindi transliteration. SSOQ Appropriation 124 SEP. 1965] Appropriation 5510 Bib, 1965 (No. 4) BiU, 19CJ

5511 Appropriation [ RAJYA SABHA] Appropriation 5512 lo. 3) Bill, 1965 (No. 4) Bill, 19G5

SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Madam, I wholeheartedly endorse the very fine and exalted sentiments expressed on the occasion of these discussions of the Demands. I am glad that the House has generally endorsed the Demands. They have not referred to them in any specific matters and therefore I would not like to take the time of the House any more except to say that on a particular matter about the Navy, point made was that we have to strengthen then Navy and moder- nise it and make it a! striking power. It is true that both the Finance Minister in the other House as well as the Defence Minister on an earlier occasion have assured the House that every effort is being made even to seek the help of certain Powers to develop the Navy and this point is of very great relevance, looking to our recent experience and particularly the experience of this war with Pakistan. We have to, as the Prime Minister said yesterday in the broadcast, develop a self-reliant attitude and particularly in defence I entirely agree with the hon. Members that we have to develop in this country an independent defence potential and it is because ultimately it is with our industrial and economic strength, on the strength of our defence industries that we will be able to defend the country. With 5513 Discussion on Security [24 SEP. 1965] Council Resolution 5514 these words, I will request the House to DISCUSSION ON THE U.N. SECU- pass these Demands. RITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION OF SEPTEMBER 20, 1965 REGARDING [MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair] CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is: "That the Bill to authorise payment and appropriation of certain further sums from and out of the Consolidated Fund of India, for the services of the financial year 1965-66, as passed by the Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration." The motion was adopted. MR. CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up the clause by clause consideration of the Bill. Clauses 2 and 3 and the Schedule were added to the Bill. Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.

SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: Sir, I move: "That the Bill be returned." The question was put and the motion was adopted.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is: "That the Bill to provide for the authorisation of appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of India to meet the amounts spent on certain services during the financial year ended on the 31st day of March, 1963 in excess of the amounts granted for those services and for that year, as passed by the Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration." The motion was adopted. MR. CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up the clause by clause consideration of the Bill.- Clauses 2 and 3 and the Schedule were added to the Bill. SHRI B. R. BHAGAT: I move: "That the Bill be returned." The question was put and the motion was adopted.

5515 Discussion on Security [ BAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5516

5517 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5518

5519 Discussion on Security [RAJYA SABHA] Council Resolution 5520

5521 Discussion on Security [24 SEP. 1965] Council Resolution , 5522

"Let me make it perfectly clear, Mr. Secretary-General, that when consequent upon the cease-fire be- coming effective further details are considered, we shall not agree to any disposition which will leave the door open for further infiltrations or prevent us from dealing with the infiltrations that haVe taken place. I would also like to state categorically that no pressure or attacks will deflect us from our firm resolve to maintain the sovereignty an^ territorial integrity of our country of which the State of Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part."

5523 Discussion on Security t RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5524

5525 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5526

SHRI M. GOVINDA REDDY (Mysore): Mr. Chair mail, I thank the hon. Shri Vajpayee and the hon. Shri Bhupesh Gupta for raising this discussion. Sir, the world heaved a sigh of relief when the Security Council Resolution ordering a cease-fire was accepted by Pakistan. India accepted this offer unconditionally on both the occasions, first when U Thant proposed it and later on when the Security Council passed the Resolution on September 20. When Pakistan, which had not accepted it earlier, accepted it, the world heaved a sigh of relief. Sir, the brilliant campaign of resistance against the massive aggression of Pakistan launched by India has brought new disclosures to the world and to the Security Council. I say to the Security Council also although the Council may not have realised it. One cannot doubt the good intentions of the Security Council however unsatisfactory the procedings were in our view. Behind this brilliant campaign. Sir, was the great and firm determination of the Government of India, the people of India to fight for freedom, 5527 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5528

[Shri M. Govinda Reddy.] the whole world should stop to consider. The to fight for a' just cause. Behind this campaign United Nations is today respected throughout was also the great valour of our Armed Forces the world because of its moral force. If it is to and the great skill of our people. Behind this establish an order of one world, it is this moral campaign was the greatest disclosure to the force which should attract all the States to it world, the oneness of India, the unity of the but how can the United Nations command this people of India. Sir, in this campaign, our simple Hioral force when the Big Powers in the Gnats proved to be dreadnaughts, and India' United Nations shirk to face the truth? I am which was known or which was taken for a surprised, Sir, that when a small country—I do meek and passive country proved to be not just a not mean small in the sense of status but only paper tiger; it proved that it could hit and hit in size—when a country like Malaysia could back. So, Sir, I join the hon. Shri Vajpayee in say that Pakistan did commit aggression, sent paying my humble tribute to the jawans of our in armed infiltrators into India, neither Britain Armed Forces who have, with great sacrifice, nor the United States of America' had the great courage and determination carried on this courage to say this. Britain towards whom we campaign in such a splendid way to an have been magnificent, we haVe forgotten her admirable success. The conduct of this faults, we have forgiven her past sins against campaign throughout has disclosed to the world us, towards whom we have maintained cordial the great statesmanship that the Indian leaders relations, when we consider almost our best are capable of. Sir, the whole situation was friend, doe* not seem to have shed her old handled with admirable statesmanship by our complex of divide and rule. Here unfortunately Prime Minister. Every statement that he has or fortunately, there is nothing for her to rule made is pregnant with statesmanship, is preg- but she still can divide. The partisan attitude nant with love of peace. When the very first that she has adopted has come as a shock to offer of peace was made, when the first offer of those who wanted to maintain very cordial a cease-fire was made, our Prime Minister proved that India' was a peace-loving country by relations with her. Britain is the seat of the accepting it unconditionally and when Pakistan, Commonwealth; she is the head of the regardless of all decencies, began to bomb Commonwealth. Being head of the civilian areas, killing and maiming harmless and Commonwealth, if she is not able to say, when innocent people, our leaders restrained our a dispute arises between two Commonwealth Armed Forces from any such thing thus proving nations, as to who is who and what is what, to the world that we are not after the blood of what would be the use of such a anybody but are only for preserving our Commonwealth and what would be the good of independence. Sir, it is very unfortunate that the India remaining in that Commonwealth? One truth was not realised in the Security Council. I seriously gets second thoughts over this agree with Shri Vajpayee that the Big Powers in question of the Commonwealth when Britain the Security Council should have realised what has taken up such a blatantly partisan attitude. the truth of the matter was. It was proved The United States is a power which can take an beyond doubt that it was Pakistan that had independent decision, a fearless decision but committed a'ggres- -' sion. The documents given what is her attitude? She was not able to face by Gen. j Nimmo and the Secretary General's the truth of the matter in this context. On the statement to the Security Council prove beyond other hand, Sir, even after the arms agreement doubt that Pakistan was the aggressor and yet was flouted the American Embassy in Karachi the Great | Powers did not like to countenance I and the Consulate in Lahore were subjected to that statement. Here is a thing which I indignities, the United Nations Flag was torn down and the American Embassy Library in Karachi was burnt and 5529 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5530 their cars were burnt, even then the So it is for our Government now to oil President of the United States of America our diplomatic wheels or to change them talks to President Ayub Khan over the altogether. It is very necessary now in our phone and assures him of his best own interests. As our Prime Minister has friendship. Sir, when I think of this I ask said in last night's broadcast we have to myself the question, what a fall from be self-reliant and we cannot depend President Kennedy who did not budge an upon anybody else. Therefore, we have to inch until the missiles were removed from strengthen our diplomatic machinery and Cuba. Unless these Big Powers are able to I think our Government will pay attention take disinterested decisions when matters to it. of dispute come before them where is the safety for the world? I cannot understand but anyway we have in all humility SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West proved ourselves that we hold the peace Bengal): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I associate of the world above our own convenience myself with the sentiments expressed by and we have therefore complied with the the mover of this Resolution for our Security Council's Resolution but our armed forces. We have paid them tributes Prime Minister has made it perfectly in the course of the entire crisis and I clear, as Shri Vajpayee has read out, that think we have well placed our confidence in this issue our stand is beyond dispute in them because they have done well in that Kashmir is an integral part of India, defending the frontiers of our land. I think that there can be no question of con- in the past few weeks India has spoken in sidering parting with either Kashmir or deeds not only on the frontier but also in any part of it. So I think that whatever the the rear. There is little that we can add by political solution the Security Council speeches in this House. Yet I believe may have in view or whatever talks may some speeches have to be made in order ensue on this subject, our stand is firm to give expression to the national soli- and the people of Kashmir have proved darity, national will, national thinking and beyond all doubt that they stand by India. national resolve in the matter. India, Sir, It was the fond hope of Pakistan that has emerged from this grave crisis with people in Jammu and Kashmir and in honour and dignity and above all with India would place faith above country but inspiration and confidence but then the they have proved—everyone of them has struggle is not yet over and the issues proved—that everyone of them is a Abdul remain to be faced again with firmness, Hamid, that they are patriotic and that statesmanship and a sense of perspective. they place country above everything else. We want peace; that is our motto in this Therefore, the question of plebiscite is wide world but we seek peace with the ruled out. So, Sir, I believe that Pakistan assurance that the frontiers of our country will at least now realise that there is no shall not be violated and that freedom and hope for her of taking either by force or security of our land shall not be menaced. by diplomatic pressure of Powers like Unless that assurance comes not in words Britain or any other Power the State of or meaningless resolutions or platitudes Jammu and Kashmir or any part of India. but in facts of national and international life, we shall have to be vigilant and keep Just a word more and I am finished In the powder dry. A simple cease-fire this connection another disclosure has been which has the approbation of the whole brought to our notice and that is that our country has come about, but. Mr. diplomatic wheels move very slowly. They Chairman, peace and frond have to be oiled. In fact when we see the neighbourliness between India and diplomatic moves of Pakistan we have to Pakistan which we all cherish remains as own that we are weaker on that side. I ever a distant cry. For this.

5531 Discussion on Security [RAJYA SABHAJ Council Resolw.nm 5532

[Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] take the place of disorder and war? That is the of course, Pakistan and those who equip issue today after this simple cease-fire. The Pakistan and support her and Pakistan's basic test is whether the Pakistan regime bellicosity and aggressiveness are responsible. renounces aggression and war as an It is most unfortunate that with a country instrument of State policy. The test in dedicated to the cause of peace Pakistan, a particular is whether Pakistan recognises that neighbour, should have chosen such a path as the State of Jammu and Kashmir is an integral it has chosen. It is even more tragic and part of India, a well settled fact which neither disgusting if I may say that apart from the the U.S. donated Patton tanks and Sabre jets, imperialist powers which have been, of course nor the wily manoeuvres in the Security supporting Pakistan, the People's Republic of Council or elsewhere, nor the prodigious vocal China should have taken this unprincipled support of U.S. and Britain, nor even the most stand of what I can call giving generous inglorious and unprincipled support of China 3 support to Pakistan. I say this thing in great P.M. can alter. This fact can never be unsettled. sorrow and pain because today all of us should Kashmir remains an unchallengeable part of work for peace and for good neighbourly this great Republic as surely as, Mr. relations between countries. Anyhow, we have Chairman, the Arabian Sea washes the shores to face the situation as it is. President Ayub's of Karachi and Bombay and unless this simple broadcast and especially the speech of that fact is recognised and accepted by the comic figure, Mr. Zulfiquar Ahmed Bhutto, Pakistani rulers and their supporters, I am accompanied by his threat which hardly afraid we shall not be nearer a solution of the matters today, to leave the U.N., make it clear problems that face us. If this battle could not that the Pakistani rulers are still in no mood to be won by Pakistan with Patton tanks, neither seek the way of peace and good neigh- is President Ayub Khan going to win it by bourliness with India despite the fact that we methods of blackmail and threats or by have all the time unilaterally chosen the path rushing to the United Nations and delivering of good neighbourliness and proposed to them bellicose speeches. There is no Kashmir a no-war pact. It is clear. that cease-fire or problem, as far as India is concerned, and even withdrawal will not by themselves bring there should not be such a problem, if I may about enduring peace in this sub-continent. add, for any other country. Pakistan and some Why? The interlude between the armed fights others have artificially created this problem, and clashes and the cease-fire after all we have seek to extend and draw upon it to create seen is no peace especially when such confusion and chaos. It is the task of the world interludes are sought to be exploited for community not to encourage Pakistan, but to consolidation for further aggradizement and call her to order. That is the problem aggression as we have recently experienced Therefore. I think that the international ro-v- after the cease-fire over the Kutch issue. nunih- and the Security Council should, once Therefore, while peaceful interludes are good and for all, realise the simple truth. India wpnt the issue before us is how thev are going to be to the Security Council not with a Kashmir consolidated. Are they going to be exploited problem, but with a complaint of aggression bv Pakistan or some others in order to prepare against us. In these seventeen years we have for another attack or are thev going to be not h^d the aggression vacated bv the United exploited for silencing the guns of Pakistan, Nations. Now. todav it does not lie defeat completely their policy and posture of In the mouth of the United Nations or the aggression so that good sense and orderly Security Council, with all respect relations 5533 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5534 to the gentlemen there, that they should allow in this matter. For the first time in a war not of the issue to be revived and agitated. Anyhow, our seeking, the Indian Armed Forces have should anybody attempt to do so, India should demonstrated that the attackers could be mobilise the entire public opinion in the repelled and that is a lesson, I think, that country and, it possible, world public opinion President Ayub Khan should bear in mind. to scotch that plan in the very beginning. Today that U.S.-built armour of Pakistan has Kashmir is not a matter to be discussed in the been blown out, blown out with every blow Security Council. It can be discussed only in tha.t our Air Force struck and every weapon the Kashmir Assembly and in this Parliament they mounted against them, when they and nowhere else. That should be our committed their aggression. And I think here approach. I think we should be clear now in again a lesson for them to draw and for us to our minds and accordingly we should act in take inspiration from is that the entire edifice the international arena. of the aggression, built with U.S. military equipment and under the SEATO and CENTO alliances, has received some staggering blows and this for the good of Now, Mr. Chairman, here again we have mankind, not merely of India. After all, what reason to congratulate ourselves, not that we is Afro-Asian solidarity, after all what is our seek adulation. A nation, if it is sorry in its anti-colonialism, after all how can we hour of crisis, has also to congratulate itself on contribute to the larger cause of world peace is achievements and whatever good and and against aggression, unless on this great positive the crisis brings out as a result. In the subcontinent we are strong enough morally, first place, we have made it known to politically and materially to stand 'up to the President Ayub Khan and those who feel like challenge of such a combination of military him- that aggression is not going to pay and alliances, backed up by certain powers and so will not be tolerated. Over the last ten years on? That we have done. Here again, we may and more the U.S. imperialists have built up humbly claim at least a word of appreciation Pakistan with lavish military aids, all free from those who are against aggression, from gifts—of the order of 1500 million dollars and those who are for peace, from those who do perhaps more. They armed Pakistan to not like aggressive military alliances, from pressurise, intimidate, blackmail and attack those who want a brotherhood of nations and India. Naturally they had been helped all these international, orderly behaviour to be years by Britain and certain other people. established in the relations between nations. Today, we have demonstrated to the "world Therefore, this is also another point. that India has acquired moral and material strength to stand up to the threat and this in- vasion by the aggressor and, if possible, hit them in his own den. Therefore, it is not a Another highlight of the entire trial has small thing that we have demonstrated. We been no less inspiring. It is the unity of our did so not as a bellicose nation, but as a peace- country. Pakistan counted upon disunity. loving nation, and hence dispels aggression These merchants of communal politics, of the when aggression is launched against the so-called two-nation theory, of bigotry of country. An unjust war is started against a every type expected that in such a situation peacer-loving nation. I think the world India would be thrown into a cauldron of community should, kindly take note of it, communal confusion and chaos. What we instead of trying to equate India and Pakistan, have given them in the Tear is complete unity. the aggressor and the aggressed Hindus and Muslims have been united in this crisis as 748—RS—7 5535 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SA3HA J Resolution 5536 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] never before in have violated the cease-fire line and nave recent history and this has been our answer. committed aggression. It is stated in Gen. Our secularism has not only passed the test Nimmo's Report in paragraph after of time. It has also cemented the bonds of paragraph. Why then Pakistan should not communal amity and friendship in a manner have been declared an aggressor under the which should be an inspiration to all and I Charter? I am reminded of the days of the have no doubt in my mind that this- has League of Nations when Britain and certain played an important part in inspiring the other powers did not like to call the healthy democratic forces in East Pakistan, aggressor and aggressor and enforce where President Ayub Khan found himself collective sanctions in the matter. I do in difficulties a little. Therefore, we have maintain that the Security Council has not contributed to the cause of secularism, not let down India only. It has let down in this only within the frontiers of our land, but matter the Charter itself. Pakistan should have been named as the aggressor, after also beyond it outside. This has been a great Gen. Nimmo's Report at least. It is clear gain. In this connection, naturally I would aggression. Why the infiltrators were not like to record my appreciation of the called aggressors and called to withdraw? manner in which the minority community, Why Pakistan was not accused of violating despite certain vicious propaganda over the not only the cease-fire agreement, a radio, behaved. They have shown that they bilateral agreement between two countries are as great patriots as we are. They are our but also the Charter, an international kith and kin. We are brother in happiness commitment, sending aggressors, open and we are brothers in sorrow. We are aggressors, shall I say, into our territory to brothers in peace and we are fellow-fighters take Srinagar, to seize a State, to break up in war. The martyrdom of our soldiers on India, part of India? What else could be the Kashmir front symbolises that unity and greater aggression? An army comes brotherhood. We shall shine through the directed by the President himself who made pages of our history. That is what I say. the so-called "Gib-ralter Force" in July with This has not been a small gain. It is not a instructions to seize Srinagar. If that is not military gain. It is a spiritual and moral gain aggression, laws have no meaning; words for each and every Indian, no matter where have no meaning; international law has he lives, no matter what religion he believes given way to the law of the jungle. in. He is justly proud of it and that pride is Therefore, I say that it was the duty of the shared not only by peop!e here, but I am Security Council to face up to the facts and sure it will be shared by people all over the and declare what it is. I am sorry they have world. not done-it.

Mr. Chairman, this is our experience. I How is it in the resolution, Mr. need not deal with it. I should like now to Chairman, there are not even assurances say a word about the agreement. There are that future violations will not take place? three Resolutions of the Security Council, There are no guarantees of anv kind. All their Resolution of the 4th, of the 6th and that we are told is to withdraw to the the final Resolution that is before us. May I position before August 5th. Well, we had know why the Security Council did not withdrawn many times, but what .call the aggressor an aggressor, call the happened? From Kargil we had withdrawn spade a spade? Even Gen. Nimmo's Report bv listening to the advice of the Security speaks of Pakistan as the aggressor. Council, and in return we got the in- Clearly they filtrators now in order to seize Sri-

5537 discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] manufacture spareCouncil parts Resolution and so on. 5538Such a uagar. Is it not the bounden duty, all the country proauced such a dictator in Ayub Khan, more so after this experience, of the Security and Mr. Bhutto struts about as if they are great Council to clearly embody in the Resolution masters like Napolean. Such .comic performance certain clear assurances which would satisfy would not have been possible but for the fact that America has equipped them over ten years India, not merely words but assurances of or so.' It is the American arms which equipped physical and other nature which would them. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, but for that that satisfy India that it would be impos-. sible would not have been possible today. Therefore, for Pakistan to repeat the performance again? the time has come to take up this issue. I think, Nothing of the kind. Therefore, I say that the Mr. Chairman, the time has come for us to Security Council's Resolutions are open to realise the implications of this. I think sweet serious criticism, all the more so, Mr. reasonableness will not work with the Ame- Chairman, when I see an overtone of ricans. They are very tough customers. So it equating India with Pakistan. How can it be? does not work with them. I think internationally Pakistan is not accused, and surprisingly and otherwise we have to launch a vigorous enough when New York Times and all these diplomatic initiative and we must tell the world papers of America and Britain had to admit that Mr. Eisenhower's assurance of February that infiltrators had come from Pakistan, 1954 meant nothing and now it has been equipped by them, directed by them, the violated, so also has been violated Mr. Dulles' gentlemen of the West do not have even the assurance, and so on. This thing has to be done. I .courage to own this up and state in the think the time has come for realising that we Security Council that on account of that must build our own defence potential and Pakistan is responsible for this development mobilise world public opinion so that America is and is to be called the aggressor. If not in a position and Britain is not in a position aggression is committed, it has to be to render such help to Pakistan. I do not know defended, and there is an international law. whether what they have given can be taken back. There is no such provision that aggression But certainly if we can create international has to be defended only within its own opinion, if we can prevent spares, replacements, territory. Suppose aggression is mounted etc., being given, then Pakistan will understand from outside the boundary of a particular what it means. That suggestion I am making. country and the aggression continues, international Taw enables me to pursue there and hit at the sources of aggression and make In this connection I join with others and I it impossible to take place. Well, that is what demand our withdrawal from the we have done, in self-defence. Then how can Commonwealth. Why are you in the we be equated with Pakistan? Is it simply Commonwealth? To look at the Queen? Why because we have crossed certain inter- are you there for? I cannot understand. To national frontier? First of all you catch the Buckingham Palace you need not go. There are thief. That has not been done. many palaces in our country. Now take the head of the Commonwealth, how did he behave? In this connection what I say is, let us Premier Harold Wilson made a statement face facts. Pakistan would never have dared accusing India and expressed distaste when we do such things but for the militarv hardware took defensive action, and tears were not that came from the great United States of coming in his eyes when Pakistan America. What has Pakistan got? Not even a big steel plant, nothing of that kind. I do not know what machinery it produces. It has no petrol and no refin-. ery worth the name. It does not even1 5539 Discussion on Security [RAJYA SABHA] Council Resolution J54o (Shri Bhupesh Gupta.) mir, that you dominate Kashmir, and so was sending its hordes, its infiltrators, on, that you are the aggressor. into our country. That is how they have behaved. Here is the "Time" magazine of Mr. Chairman I am finishing. I say that the 10th September. I would just read out as far as the question of our withdrawal one or two portions, if i may, to show from the Commonwealth is concerned, I you how anti-Indian they are. It is not a wish to make clear one thing. I can see question of magazine here. that Shri Lai Bahadur Shastri's statement in this connection is quite satisfactory.. I SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: It is hope we will act up to it. He says here on an American magazine. the 16th of September: SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: "Also we could not possibly revert t'o They a situation in which we may find are blood-brothers. Americans and ourselves ence again unable to prevent Britons go together. They write in infiltrations or to deal effectively with this magazine: those who had! already come in." "The U.N. has four times ordered a plebiscite in Kashmir in order to Please bear this in mind. Negotiations determine the wishes of its inhabitants. will start. Things are now passing to the India has always refused and in 1957 a diplomatic and political level, and we hand-picked Kashmiri pupet legislature must be clear in our mind. As I say, we declared the State an integral part of do not propose to pass from cease-fire to India. ceasefire. We want to pass from this cease-fire to lasting peace. If that is not Kashmir's Sheikh Abdullah who possible, then prevent Pakistan from belatedly objec'^d to Indian domi assuming an active- ag-gressive attitude nation and also...... " of launching attacks on our country.

Please note the word "domination"— MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, this is a discussion of short " . . and also called for a plebiscite duration and there are many more has spent most 'of his time in an Indian speakers. jail. The open seizure of Pakistan- controlled territory left Ayub Khan SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I do not almost no choice. wish to say anything. As- for the rest, there are many points which have been Ayub Khan ignored the angry howls discussed. I think in the coming days it from New Delhi warning that Indian will be difficult for us perhaps in many aggression cannot and shall not be ways because of the machinations against allowed to go unchallenged." us. But once the Government maintains its policy of keeping the country united, of Such anti-Indian articles, provocative •taking counsel of those who are not in articles are being written. May I ask the Government or in the ruling party, and Rome Minister, what are you doing to based on the unity and the collective this paper? What are you doing to this wisdom of the nation, in a true democratic paper? Have you banned it? Have you spirit, I think we shall be coming out with confiscated it? I say it is no use. Do not flying colours from the test that is facing be afraid that your PL480 will hot be us here just as our soldiers have passed thor?. Now stop the "Time" magazine their test in the battle-field with glory and ccm-ing to our country and the "Ne vs- honour. week" and similar other papers who are openly saying that you are criminals, that you are international criminals, that y"ou have seized Kash- 5541 discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5542

SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN (Andhra , India agreed to the accession of Kashmir. Pradesh): It is a solemn 'occasion when After that, it was further sanctified by their Parliament has been asked to pronounce its Constituent Assembly which fully endorsed judgment on the situation that has been the accession of Kashmir to India. Having created by the Security Council Resolution that constitutional position, having that regarding the cease-fire. The country and clear legal position and having that moral the Government were put to very hard tests and public support, is there any difference within 17 years of the independence of the between Kashmir and Madras or . between country. We had to face unprovoked, Bombay or any other State? There is no unwarranted, naked aggression without any difference. So far as Kashmir is concerned, it warning, without any intimation, on the is Pakistan's aggression, pure and naked 5th of August, 1965. I join with the previous aggression, against a part of territory which speakers in paying my humble tribute to the belongs in all respects to India. So, I would young jawans, to the young pilots, to all like this stand to be taken. We have suffered those connected with the military, and I pay and the relations of the two countries have my humble tribute to the millions of people suffered on account of the indecision 'of the here who have stood like a firm wall, like Security Council and of the big powers on one body, behind the Government in this the question of Kashmir. Now, it is time to critical situation. We are happy in the sense say very clearly—now hands 1 off the whole that it has given us a greater sense of of Kashmir as it legally and constitutionally responsibility, a greater sense of patriotism belongs to I India, and there is n'o question and a greater sense of unity and we have of a plebiscite so far as that part of the demonstrated to the world that in difficult country is concerned, which has been times, India, irrespective of differences of constitutionally made a unit of the country. language and religion and culture, can stand I was not able to lay my hand on certain together to face the danger, and our people resolutions that have been passed at and our military have established that international conferences and that have been India is second to none in defending its passed at Afro-Asian Conferences, where security, its integrity and its hon'our. it has been clearly laid down that there is no question of self-determination so far as a part of a country or a State is concerned. If Now, Sir, if I may say so, on the military field we have won by the grace of God, that is the policy accepted by all nati'ons, and by the provisions of the Charter of the United by the hard work and patriotism of our young people. But n'ow we have to face Nations, then any attempt made whether it was an equally difficult front and that is the in August 1947 or whether it is on the 5th of August, 1965, it is an agrression and nothing diplomatic front. In order to face that, we have to understand basically a few things. but an aggression. If we can convince Let it once again be repeated that ac- world opinion on that issue, I think we will be able to stand up with greater determination cording to the Indian Independence Act, the condition for the integration of any and with greater moral courage. Although native State was that the ruler of that State I say that it is the duty of the country and the Government t safeguard and protect every should sign the document of accession. 0 But in this particular case, we were not inch of our territory, I would humbly submit content with that technical and that this question does not only concern a territory or land but ii involves, it implies, constitutional provision, but the accredited leaders of Kashmir came and insisted upon basic questions for which the leaders 'of this the leaders tof the country that the people country I such as Mahatma Gandhi and Jawa-I harlal Nehru stood, sacrificed every- of Kashmir wanted to accede to India. I may reiterate that it is on the insistence of the leaders of Kashmir that the people of 5543 discussion on Security [RAJYASABHA] Council Resolution 5544

[Shri Akbar Ali Khan.] thing and it is communities also live here? That is the issue enshrined in the Constitution and laid down as t0 which they will have to address themselves the policy that is this country will be a secular to appreciate the secular character of India. country, a democratic country, a country in which people belonging to every Sir, they will have to address themselves to religion will be participants and sharers another problem. That is economic and social with equal rights and equal privileges. That is problem. When we are thinking of economic the issue now and I would like the United issues, of political issues, of socialism and Nations to address themselves to this other ideals s'o that we may light out the real situation whether they want a theocratic State enemies of the society, poverty and ignorance, where people of other religions have no equal to divert our thoughts and energies to issues chance and status or whether they want a which accentuate and strengthen the sectional democratic State: where everybody, every and narrow ideology is terrible. To improve citizen, irrespective of caste and religion, has the economic condition of our people is our got equal rights. They have also t0 main problem. I would like that at the United decide whether they want secularism 'or they Nations this matter has to be made very, very want communal frenzy—again con- clear so that the attention may be directed to flagration an

SHRI DAHYABHAI V. PATEL (Gujarat): not take the time of the House by Mr. Chairman, Sir, I join in paying my tribute repeating an experience that I recently came and the tribute of the nation to the brave men, across when I went out. But is it not ,ime for to our fighting Forces and to the wise lead- us to correct this impression? Sir, I do not ership that has been guiding them tnrough this know how many of us remember that when the difficult period. I would also like to say a border between India and Pakistan was word, Sir, to oui Prime Minister who has being demarcated and when two villages on the followed the policy of consultation with all other side of the border of what is called Azad parties in this country so that every section, Kashmir and Pakistan were being every party in this country felt thai the war that demarcated, they were being cut right across was thrust upon us a war which the whole the border that was marked. What did country was fighting. Tnat phase of tlv> war is they do? Both sides felt, and the re- over. I do not know whether we have reason to presentatives of the United Nations felt that feel very happy about it. it would be a crime to bisect the villages. So they went through a process of, what is Sir, as certain previous s^eukers have said, called, referendum. The vo':e of the the Resolutions or the United Nations security villages was taken, and the vote of both the Council, the United Nations, have not inspired villages was more than 90 per cent, to come very sought to be suppressed, e manner in with India. Sir, this is a very relevant fact which the first Nimmo Report was sought to which took place more than 18 years ago but it be suppressed, Hi: wsitner in which the is never mentioned in the Councils of the aggression committed by Pakistan was not United Nations or even before the world to 'owned, was not made known to the world, prove our case that the people of Kashmir make us aggrieved. And when India took ac- have acceded voluntarily and by their free tion in self-defence, the Council instead of will to this country. This was a symbolic defending us, took in the stand as if India was referendum. I will just quote the names. the aggressor. I think the names are Bodoi and Kargil- Sii', we have reason to be aggrieved about similar to that outpost but not the same. this. But if we are to indulge in a little It was in these two villages on the border introspection, have we no reason to be a sorry that a sort of referendum was taken and the about our own faults? Has there not been a vote of every person was taken and ninety par failure of our diplomatic missions, a failure of cent, of the people voted to come to India. Why our publicity machinery, a failure of our is this fact forgotten? Why is this fact not attempt to keep the world abreast of what is known to the oeop'e all over the world and in happening in this country? the U.N.? It is because, with due respect, our External Affairs Ministry is in bad shape. I A Member of the other House who I very have mentioned once before in 'his House a recently visited Pakistan to see some relations little more than a year ago that things are not was asked whether really there were so all right with that Ministry. If our case is to many Muslims in this country more Muslims in be brought forward before the world, if it is this country than there were in West j tc be known before the world in ther Pakistan, whether Muslims were al- 1 proper perspective, then these failings will lowed to eat meat in this country? If that have to be removed. The same is the case is the ignorance that is prevailing just across the with our publicity, whether it is external or narrow border, how much more ignorance internal. Only twe or three days after the prevail? outside all over the world? I will aggression ' happened to hear the Pakistan ■ radio which said that even the Swatantra 5547 -Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 554^

(Shri Dahyabhai V. Patel.) leader, Mr. not the personality or the image of a united Rajagopalachari, is against this war with India, an India that consists of so many Pakistan whereas we know that it was two people, of various castes„ communities, days earlier that his statement was religions, faiths, who-live together and have published in the press. I think he has gone lived together for centuries in peace and the farthest and I hope our Government will harmony even 1 hough the British did not like remember it. He has said not only must it and they wanted us to fight to suit their this war be won but we must demand purposes? Harsh things have been said restoration from the aggressor. Restoration about the attitude of tne British is perhaps a peaceful word. A war-like Government. One may be inclined to agree word is reparation to the innocent people who with them up to a point but I think such have suffered in this. Will we take lessons decisions should not be taken in the heat or will we still allow our publicity to go of the moment. To-day we are angry. The on partially to a certain c'ass of people, to hand feeling, the heat in our minds that war over our All India Radio to hand over our generates has not cooled. Perhaps a decision external publicity to certain favourites on this point may be taken a little later but it is whether it does us good or does not do us necessary to let the British Government good abroad? It is high time that the Prime know the strong sentiments or the feelings Minister takes serious note of these of the people. Indeed the Prime Minister of things. The country has stood behind him England should know that while we were at his unitedly in this crisis. The crisis is perhaps instance talking to him about the Kutch not over but certainly the Prime Minister and border and trying to arrive at a settlement- the Government have had breathing time to with him, it was at that very time that Pakistan think and to correct their faults. I do not was planning this aggression against India want to, at this juncture, enumerate diese and certainly this country would have expected faults. I do not feel at all happy to mention the Prime Minister of England to remember them. I feel very sorry that there may be this and not accuse India of aggression. It is Ministers both at the Centre and in the States said that in England there are a large who should not be there. Their names, their number of people, formerly retired British cases, their doings have been mentioned ad servants) Civil Servants and a large number nauseam in this House. On this occasion I of businessmen who thought that in India will not mention them, but I would urge upon their sons and grandsons would lord over the the Prime Minister to take note of this if he country for so many years and it is wants this country to stand up behind him as it these Congressmen, these Hindus in India has been during this crisis. If he does who came and put an end to it. Perhaps not, I am afraid in a similar situation some friends from our neighbouring that may forow it would be a matter of doubt country, Pakistan, have been encouraging the whether he would get the same measure of feeling and have been telling them: 'Look support. here these people removed you, we did not quarrel with you.' So a natural sort of The Prime , Minister has proved himself to human sympathy for Pakistan can be aroused be able. He has conquered many difficulties by such talks and a slight antagonism for us by his personality, by his deep humility and may also be aroused but let us remember that the manner in which he has tackled the human it was the Labour Government that problem. I would like him to consider where came and cut the Gordian knot of the we have been failing. Has not our External difference between, the Conservative Affairs Ministry been thinking of projecting the personality of Prime Minister Nehru and Party and India, between Mr. Churchill and this country, when the difficulty of trans- 549 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 55^- fer of power came about. Let us not in our SHR[ DAHYABHAI V. PATEL: I. am anger lose sight of this and let us hope that talking of the vote; there is no veto about it; I better counsels may prevail .there also. We do am not saying anything else. I have said we feel a lot of resentment that American arms are are grateful to the Soviet Union for exercising being used against us, particularly when an its veto in our favour in the past. But this time assurance was given not only by the the position is different; let us recognise it. Ambassador in India, who happens to be the very person to-day who was the Ambassador (Interruptions) when this arms deal with Pakistan was signed but also by a much higher quarter DIWAN CHAMAN LALL: Who is giving in the United Sates. Yet these arms have all the aid today? May I ask my hon. friend, been used against us but are we going to Sir, with your permission, as to who is giving quarrel over it? Certainly we will express us military aid today? our protest against it but are we going to quarrel with that country and not deal with it in a SHRI DAHYABHAI V. PATEL: Just as we proper fashion? I am sure our Government are grateful to certain -other countries for their will lodge its pro est in the manner in which all military aid, we are equally grateful to the diplomatic protests are lodged. Our Soviet Union for their aid. But my quarrel with resentment will be expressed to that Government our Government is that, like President Nassar( in the manner in which it is done and I am sure it we should accept aid but we should not accept will not be the way in which our friend, Mr. their theory of communism. But tha' is where Bhupesh Gupta, wants us to do. Sir, after al\ we have slipped. We can accept Soviet aid today the attitude of the United States of certainly, if we act like President Nasser and America and the attitude of the Soviet Union ban the Communist Party, our position would are. such that there is little to choose between have been different. them. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The Soviet SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (Uttar Union does not give you the theory of Pradesh): There is much to choose between communism; it is I who is giving you the them. theory, which he need not accept from me. SHRI DAHYABHAI V. PATEL: But I do not SHRI DAHYABHAI V. PATEL: I would see very much of it; both have stood on the same like our Government to learn the lesson that position. It i is true that in the past Ihe Soviet this aggression has taught us; whether we get Union has been very helpful to us, particularly in it from one side or the other, ultimately it is exercising its veto over this issue. But today they our strength that is going to matter. If we have have stood together. a large number of tanks but do not know how HON. MEMBERS: No, no. to utilise them, what will happen? Therefore it is necessary for us to revise our policies to DIWAN CHAMAN LALL (Punjab) : build up our strength, so that we can be self- What are you talking about? reliant, without leaning too much on either

SHRI DAHYABHAI V. PATEL: What is Right or Left, and I hope our Government will the voting? Ask the Minister. take the necessary steps in the matter. SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: But Sir, military training will be necessary for for the Soviet Union, India would have been our people. I hope it will not be necessary to condemned in the Security Council for make it compul- mounting aggression.

5551 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5^2 [Shri Dahyabhai V. Pate].] sory, because ence Minister; the Defence Minister is capable our people quite willingly join the armed of defending himself, I am sure. Now what I forces. If we fight for a little money for a have said is a matter of general talk foreigner, I am sure for patriotism we will everywhere, everybody knows it in this capital fight much better and our fighting forces have city, because we have a large number of demonstrated it to What is necessary is to foreign correspondents. It is in our interests to modernise and: properly equip our army, not let the foreign correspondents see things for remain complacent, as we were only a few themselves, and when you try to shu; out 'he years ago, and that alone is going to be the truth, untruth comes in. Therefore, let the truth solution to the present situation that we are in. be known to the people; we have nothing lo hide; this is what I was trying to say, Sir. A few words more, and I will have done. Sir, I have criticised the Government's bad dealings SHRI M. M. DHARIA: On a point of in the foreign missions, and the press. But wha. information; is it not a fact that the surprised me most was that even in this country correspondent here of the well known weekly the press, particularly the foreign press that 'Time' was given all possible facilities and he made efforts to send its people to see things, wag alleged to go to the village . . . the foreign correspondents seem to have complained that they were not treated properly. MR, CHAIRMAN: He has not yielded and Why is this so, Sii? When the foreign yet you go on; please sit down. Will you correspondents go right into the fighting line, please sit down? I wish to point out to the they go of course, at their own risk, and if the hon. Members that listening to unpleasant foreign correspondents wanted to go and see things is one of the important parts of things for themselves, why should we prevent parliamentary procedure. them? Why should we not give them all the facilities? Thereby, Sir, I think our case is very SHRI' DAHYABHAI V. PAjI Thank you, much misrepresented and so misundersood, Sir. Now last but not the least, one small because they are not .extended the facilities, unpleasant thing, and I am afraid I have to because many of the foreign correspondents mention it. No doubt \the Shastri Government 'who wanted to go to the fighting line were has carried on in all this with a sense of prevented under false notions of security unanimity, which has pleased many people. (Interruptions) I would be only too glad if my Only one feature that gives rise to certain friend is right. Of course I have not myself misgivings in my mind is this. I understand found the truth, but I am just relating what I Mr. Krishna Menon has been sent out again to have been told, and what I believe is likely to represent our country abroad. Have we not be true, and I am mentioning it only because had enough? Has the country no: suffered our Government should correct its policies. enough? Havp we not suffered sufficient ignominy? Have not our Armed Forces SHRI M. M. DHARIA (Maharashtra) : He unnecessarily suffered so much disgrace? And has made a statement which is not a fact. this gentleman is being chosen again to be sent out as our representative. I hope Mr. MR. CHAIRMAN: He is not yielding, Mr. Shastri will think twice before doing anything pharia. of this kind again. SHRI DAHYABHAI V. PATEL: We do Thank you, Sir. not want a defender of the Def- SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: Let us take advantage of all men. 5553 Discussion on Secu-ity [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5554

SHRI JAIRAMDAS DAULATRAM ing for the country. That memento will remain (Nominated): Sir, knowing the pressure on our with them. It will be presented to them in a time I will try to be as brief as possible, and great public gathering as the country's also as unemotional as possible. I will briefly appreciation and honour for the spirit which pay my tribute to the wisdom and states- they showed. I would also im_.ar!y give to manship which our Government have shown s every wounded civilian in the country, some at various stages of the happenings of the last memento as recognition of the suffering which few weeks. I mus; also pay my tribute to the very fine work done by Shri Chagla, our he had to undergo for our country. When we Education Minister, at the Security Council, were in the movement in the .olden days. it and I have no doubt that those who read from was the honour part of the suffering which day to day the proceedings of thai Council will always raised our morale, and if our nation, agree that he had very considerable influence not the Army only, if our nation is to be a in the shaping of the final decisions though nation of brave individuals, we must on every they may not be entirely to our satisfaction. I occasion of manifestation of courage, give that also want to endorse all the praise showered public recognition to that act of courage. on our brave Army, whose achievements have Therefore, I hope that these suggestions will raised the prestige of the country "before the reach the proper quarters and we will take world. I also would pay my tribute to the civil suitable steps quickly and promptly. I have population which rose to the occasion, it also one (other small suggestion to make, reminded me of the days of the struggle under again of a psychological type. Religious Gandhiji. The lethargy of centuries has been places of some of our communities have shaken and I i i"st, from that point of view, not suffered at the hands of the aggressor. May I 4 P.M. criticise and condemn Pakistan—that venture to suggest to Government that they has been done enough—but thank Pakistan for must make an exception in the case of these the misadventure on which it had launched buildings, religious buildings, and out of and for having shaken India into a wide public funds, make substantial grants for the awakening to the realities of the situation. reconstruction and rejuvenation of these sacred shrines of our Muslim friends, whether I will make a few concrete suggestions as a in Kashmir or elsewhere, and of our Hindu, humble worker who had something to do with Sikh or Christian friends elsewhere? I have the masses and of the mind and psychology of one particular and special suggestion to make the people. We are in a certain emotional with regard to one very small religious mood today. I do wish that we should community in our country and also one of the consolidate those psychological gains of the smaller racial communities in our country. I present times and I have a few simple and am referring to our Christian friends. Their apparently unim-noftant suggestions to make. great cathedral in Ambala has been razed to But I think thev do count and I hope they •will the ground. This is a great blow to one reach the ears of the Prime Minister. important element in our composite culture and that blow to that small element in our I would wish that every town and every composite culture is a blow to us all. Because village which has been raided by Pakistan the Anglo-Indian community is not a rich should receive a memento of honour for the mercantile community and also because it is privilege which these towns and villages had one of the smallest religious communities of of suffer- the country, I would suggest to the Government to go out of the way and five them the entire amount needed

5555 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5556 [Shri Jairamda's Daulatram.] for the v as ihere at the time of the aggression. It is a reconstruction of that church. After all, most unfair, unjust and impossible formula to Christians do not live in India only. Christians be accepted. I do not want to go into the are all over the world. Christians are a very implications of this. This is my basic argu- very numerous community in the world and in ment. Basically it is unjust, unfair and many countries, whether of Europe or other dangerous, because it encourages the continents, wherever Christians are living and aggressor and is in favour * the aggressor and functioning they go and pray in their churches. keeps the aggressor in 8 position to commit Therefore, I suggest that it would be a good aggression again. Therefore, it is an thing and a wise thing that our Government impossible formula and we cannot possibly should go out of the way and help accept it. reconstructing that church. I understand that they have suffered a loss of fifty lakhs. After Then, Sir, we are told that friends from all, what is fifty lakhs to our taxpayers who various countries, including. Russia, have are paying crores and crores of rupees? It is a suggested that they are ready to mediate. gift of the rest of the communities oi India to Why? Why this hurry? Why this hustling of. that small community at this psychological India into a fresh talk on Kashmir, may be moment. tomorrow, or the day after or a week or ten days after? Because of the aggression by Sir, I have one or two other brief Pakistan? Is the Security Council, is the suggestions to make. I think it is a very unjust, international community going to force the unfair, partial and dangerous formula to talk aggressed party to resume discussion of status quo ante. I think we made a little slip immediately because the aggressor has asked with regard to the Rann of Kutch affair, and I for it? It is an impossible proposition. It is rot must say that Parliament and all parties in h proposition in the interest of peace. It is not Parliament were a party to that slip". What is a proposition in the interest of international it after all, this formula, this simple innocent- justice. It means that you recognise force. looking formula, status quo ante? What does While you r?y you don't, you do recognise it mean? It means that you go back to the force by hustling India into an immediate position or point of the starting of the fight. discussion. If justice is to prevail in this world, How does a fight begin? A fight begins by an if human relations are to be governed bv aggressor coming to the border, ready for justice, India cannot, ought not to be forced action and crossing the border, and when the into an immediate discussion on Kashmir aggressor crosses the border aggression takes because of its implications. It means that place, and the aggressed on whom a surprise tomorrow any aggressor cr>n force the other attack has been launched, may have been party to resume discussion. We take *ne view some 20 or 30 or 40 miles away. So status quo that we have dealt with the Kashmir problem. ante for the aggressed means a point very far Well we may be wrong, we may be right. We from the border. And then ihe Security Coun- think that we are right. Others may think that cil very wisely and very sedately and very we are wrong. Those who *hink that we ire calmly suggests status quo ante as on 5th wrong except the interested party, have to be August. How can there be this status quo ante converted by us. I do rot want to repeat what as on 5th August, except in the sense that it is has been said about the deficiency of our in favour of the aggressor? The aggressor may diplomatic efforts. I do not want to go into that go back only a few inches behind the border, because I do not want to take more time. Bu+ I but the aggressed has to go back 20 miles or think it is wrong ior India to be hustled into more, because he immediate discussions, whether it is the U.S.A. 5557 Discussion on Security [24 SEP. 1965] Council Resolution 5558 which approaches us or whether it is the us military aid, for even selling us military Security Council which approaches us or equipment. Russia does not ask America to whether it is Russia that approaches us. When give it military aid or sell military equipment two people fight both may be wrong. Or one or ammunition; so is the case with America may be right. But why should we tell them: and England. Therefore, I believe that the "Be good boys and sit round the t Me for time has come when India must work for the discussion? If. one party fails, that finishes the day when we become really independent in matter. It is no longer the concern of the world the matter of military defence. to yield to the aggressor and interfere in regard to an integral part of our country. Therefore, I feel that this is a point which we ought to stress One more other small thing. I will finish in and it is the stand that we should take up. •One a minute. A friend here has suggested that we other matter and I have done. I think the should leave the Commonwealth. It is a very realities which faced us have shown that the important issue which has been raised here Indian nation is not at all arjle to use the method and outside. Being important, it needs of non-violence when a foreigner attacks the consideration. I do not say that there is country. We have not today the leadership of nothing to be said in favour of it; at least, that type which could rouse four hundred emotion has plenty to say in favour of it but I million Indians into non-violent resistance. It think there may be other factors also to be will be a bad and a sad day for this country if considered. If the Commonwealth consisted there are not some men who will stand up for only of India and one other nation with which the method of nonviolence even in the case of we differ or against which we have a feeling; war. I hope that that small group will remain the whole thing is easy but the and by deeds and action prove that that method Commonwealth at present consists of a large is ultimately the right one when at the right number of States, European, Asian and time, the right leadership of the right quality African, it has to be considered whether India should deliberately retire and give up that becomes available to this country. But the nation today is made for the normal method of forum today in the hands of those who can defending the country. We as Parliament, manage that forum. If India developed its own whatever may be the individual view of anyone strength as it ought to, India may have much of us, representing th£ country and as trustees to do in that forum and India's voice might of the country must in that way also represent probably carry some weight and I hope, the nation and again the realities have shown therefore, that various aspects of this question us that there is no way out for a really free, will be very carefully considered. independent India except to depend upon itself for developing all its military might, whether it Sir, this is all that I had to say. is the latest weapons or whether it is the conventional weapons or whatever may be necessary for the defence of the country by THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (SHRI people who believe in the normal methods. I M.' C. CHAGLA): Sir, I will try and make my think it is the duty of Parliament to see that that intervention as brief as possible. If I might need is fulfilled. I think it will be a (Treat day deal with the last point raised by Mr. for Tndia for which we should all work when Jairamdas about the Commonwealth, I know we should not depend how strongly we are feeling and we are upon iny foreign country for giving entitled to feel strongly about the attitude taken by the United Kingdom on thig question of Pakistani aggression. Before we ,take a decision 5559 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHAJ Council Resolution 5«6o [Shri M. C. Chagla.] fraught with serious induction of any foreign troops, there is no consequences, whether we should remain in mention of evacuation of our troops from the Commonwealth or not, we must give it - Kashmir and yet this Resolution, after a great careful thought. I would only throw out a deal of hesitation, Pakistan accepted. When I suggestion for the consideration of the House. was arguing the case, the representative of Our quarrel is with the United Kingdom, our Pakistan refused to give an unequivocal reply grievance is against the United Kingdom, not whether Pakistan was prepared to accept an against the Commonwealth. The unconditional cease-fire as our Prime Minister Commonwealth is not the property of the had accepted. It was only after the Security United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is only Council session was finished that President a member of the Commonwealth. In the other Ayub had second thoughts and sent Mr. House, I just heard somebody saying, "We Bhutto posthaste to call a meeting at midnight might ask the United Kingdom to leave the to offer his acceptance. Commonwealth" rather than that we should leave the Commonwealth. Therefore, I would beg of this House, never take political decision I now come to the other point raised about the of far-reaching consequences when one is in a 5th of August by I think, Mr. Jairamdas. He said mood of indignation or anger. I think, as I said, this gives an advantage to the aggressor. in London, our indignation and anger are Now, if you look at the Prime Minister's letter perfectly justified but one must permit one's to the Secretary General, it is perfectly passion to cool down before one can come to a clear as to what we mean by going back to the conclusion on so important a matter. positions which were occupied by both the countries on the Kh August and I made Gov- Dealing with the Resolution of the Security ernment's position perfectly clear to the Council, Mr. Jairamdas Daulatram said Security Council that three conditions are that it was not wholly satisfactory. I agree implicit in this date, 5th August, one, that all with him. As I was just telling the other House, the infiltrators who entered Kashmir and who this is not our draft. We did not approve of it. commenced Pakistan's aggression must It was passed by the Security Council but I withdraw, second, Pakistan must admit think, on the whole, it is a Resolution with responsibility for these infiltrators and third— which we might well be satisfied and it and the most important— that we must create constitutes a serious and important diplomatic such a situation that infiltration in future defeat for Pakistan. Just consider this. What would become impossible. We have did Pakistan want? She laid down four had enough of these cease-fires, we have conditions, cease-fire, withdrawal of our trusted Pakistan sufficiently and we are not troops from Kashmir and her troops prepared to trust her any more. from tjiat part of Kashmir of which she is Therefore, in the interests of our country, in in unlawful occupation, induction of an the interests of our defence, we must Afro-Asian force and the holding of a have a ceasefire line of such a character that plebiscite within three months. These were the in future no infiltration would be possible. conditions on which she was prepared to The cease-fire line is five hundrpd accept a cease-fire. Now, look at this mile* 1'ong. Von mav increase the number Resolution. You do not find even a trace of of U.N. Observers from forty to four hundred any of these conditions. There is no or four thousand but unless the cease-fire line if motion of a plebiscite, there is no mention so constituted that infiltration becomes almost of an imnossible, there is no guarantee as to what is going to hap- 5561 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution . 556, pen in the future. And this is all the more I think my friend, Mr. Akbar Ali Khan, important when we realise the statement made said that something much more was at stake in by Mr. Bhutto recently, the statement by this fight between us and Pakistan, not merely Pakistan's representative in the Security the question of Kashmir. I entirely agree with Council and what President Ayub said in ac- him and may I quote from what I said in the cepting the cease-fire. What did they say? Security Council on this very matter? This They said that unless the Kashmir problem is is what I said: solved and solved according to their pleasure, there will be a greater conflagration in "This is not merely a conflict between thi(s country. Therefore, my submission to this India and Pakistan. It has a much wider House is, let us not forget that the cease-fire significance. The first significance is that is only a truce; it is not peace. Therefore, we the threat and menace of China looms large haye got to be • watchful; we have got to be behind this war. It is much more than a vigilant. I think the cease-fire is not the end of mere looming how. It has almost come to a our trouble; it is the beginning of many things concrete shape after yesterday's which will have to be wcwked out over k ultimatum." long period of time and we must not be caught napping again. Now we have got I was speaking the day after the ultimatum full notice that Pakistan does not accept this and I charged Pakistan with having ceasefire as leading to peace. Pakistan's committed this aggression on India with the contention is that peace will only come when hope and expectation that China will be there is a plebiscite in Kashmir. No, I behind it and support it. should not say that because what has beerc said in the Security Council and by Mr. "Then there is the war between the tw0 Bhutto is that peace will only come when ideologies."— Kashmir goes to Pakistan. They have already anticipated a plebiscite; they are not worried That is what Mr. Akbar Ali Khan was about the plebiscite. "What they want is that referring to— Kashmir should belong to Pakistan. The Law "Let us face it. On the one hand there is Minister of Pakistan when he was arguing the religious State and on the other hand the his case talked of Kashmiris as being th kith e secular State. This is the conflict. It is not and kin of Pakistan and I asked since when the Kashmir. Kashmir is merely the symptom; Kashmiris had become the kith and kin of it is not the disease. The disease is that Pakistan. The only bond which he cou'd find Pakistan believes in a religious State; it was the fact that the majority of people in believes in religion as the nexus between Kashmir were Muslims and Pakistan is a citizens. We believe in a secular State, in a theocratic State. Anrl I said tnat on that basis multi-racial society. It is also a fight they might as well say that the 50 million | between a free society' and democratic Muslims in India are the kith and kin of institutions on the one hand and Pakistan and the next demand thev will dictatorship and regimentation on the other. make is they will invade India in order to These are the issues involved in this war bring the 50 million Muslims, here under their and I think, if I may say, so, that it is in the domination. That shows the absurdity of the in- claim. When you make religion the basis of I terests of Asia and the world that our free citizenship you are really living in medieval society, our multi-communal federation times, not modern times. That is the whole should survive. The attack on Kashmir is an trouble. attack for the purpose of breaking up our federation, of breaking up our way of life and preventing us from carrying on our great experiment of men

'5563 discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5564 [Shri M. C. Chagla.] there is nothing to be frightened about it. I think of different religions and different . the fear we have is that we will allow the languages living peacefully together. You in Kashmir question to be reopened. Let us face it. this country are trying the same experiment. We have .done that in the past. The fear in this Other countries are trying it but Pakistan House which I fully appreciate is that we might does no* want it. It does not believe in it and be weak, we might vacillate, we might wobble wants to break it up. What we are defending over Kashmir, but I wish to give this assurance today is not merely the territorial integrity of to this House—the Prime Minister has said it in our country which is important; what we are his letter to the Secretary-General and I have defending today is the existence of a free reiterated it in the Security Council— that as far democratic nation. We want to function as a as our basic stand is concerned that Kashmir is free democratic nation. It is the threat to our an integral part of India, it remains unaltered. As institutions that we resist." I said, we will talk with President Ayub, we will talk with anybody else. After all there is another So this really is the conflict. It is not merely important issue about Kashmir that we can talk Kashmir. Of course, Kashmir is important about and .that is we went to the United Nations enough; every inch of our country is as complainants. Pakistan committed aggression important to us but something much more is on Kashmir in 1947 and that aggression still involved in this fight and it is really a fight continues till today. Let that aggression be between two ideologies. vacated. But as I said it is perfectly clear on the record that our basic stand on Kashmir remains Now I think Mr. Jairamdas Daulat--ram unaltered. And may I say this? I think Mr. said: why should India be pressurized into Dahyabhai Patel said something about the entering into talks with Pakistan? Now, the U.S.S.R. As far as the U.S.S.R. is concerned up Resolution, if you look at it, does not till today she has given us every assistance; she pressurize us. All that it says is: has made it perfectly clear and she has always said that she recognised' that Kashmir was an "Decides to consider as soon as integral part of India. And let me say this. This operative paragraph 1 of the Council's Resolution was passed on a Sunday at quarter to resolution 210 of 6 September has been three early in the morning. The Security Council implemented, what steps could be taken to sat the whole of Sunday. There were discussions assist towards a settlement of the political over every comma, every semicolon, every problem underlying the present conflict,. . . phrase and throughout those discussions we had . everv help and assistance from the U.S.S.R. and 'That is, as far as the Security Council is I can assure this House that this Resolution concerned what steps it could take. wouM never have been passed in the course Malavasia also helped us but for the considerable assistance and help which we got " . . .and in the meantime calls on the from the U.S.S.R. Of rourse. Malavsia also two Governments to utilize all peaceful helped us but don't forget that what counts most means, including those listed in Article 33 in the Securitv Council is the five Big I Powers of the Charter.. ." which have the right of veto. Of course, No time limit is fixed. We are called upon to Formosa does not count much talk and I. think in India we should be the last to say that we will not talk with any one even the devil. Therefore, if our Prime Minister has said that he is prepared to accept the invitation of U.S.S.R. that he and President Ayub should meet in that country under prepitious circumstances 5565 Discussion .on Sammy 124 SEP. 1965] Council Resolution 5566 but Russia, the United States, France and the United Kingdom do count because if one of them is opposed to a Resolution it makes no difference if everybody else supports it because that country can veto it. We succeeded in the Security Council to bring about unanimity among the Big Powers and even the non-permanent Powers, and I repeat that, but for the great assistance and help we had from the U.S.S.R. this Resolution would not have been carried and I say that this Resolution favours our country. It is a diplomatic defeat for Pakistan; it does not accept any of its conditions and I think we might look upon it as something which does not go against our interests at all. Well, Sir, I do not want to take any more of your time. I was not here— 1 am sorry—throughout the debate ■because I was in the other House, but 1 have tried to answer the questions that were raised while I was here. The rest I must leave to the Prime Minister, who will reply to the debate Thank you.

5567 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5586

5569 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5570

5571 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA J Council Resolution 5572 nity to discuss the Indo-Pakistan conflict and also the Jnued Nations resolution which has been recently passed. In fact I welcome the Resolution of the United Nations not for what it says but for what it does not say, plebiscite, the induction of foreign troops in Kashmir and so on. Moreover, we must ad`mit that the recent conflict between India and Pakistan has pricked many a bubble of Pakistan. One was that by the settlement brought about over the Rann of Kutch India perhaps on account of its weakness—that is how gentlemaniiness is interpreted—had bowed d wn to the wishes of either international opinion or the blackmail of Pakistan and that perhaps its Government could not stand up to any aggression that Pakistan might launch against us. That one bubble has been pricked. Secondly, that as soon as infiltrators were sent into Kashmir, the Kashmiris, as the Pakistanis hoped, groaning under the heels of the Indian army would rebel and join hands with the forces of aggression. That did not happen. Thirdly, that the Indian Muslims were waiting for an opportunity to rise against the Hindu rulers, the imperialists as they are called over the Pakistan radio, and also the Sikhs who were demanding a separate State, as they put it, for themselves. There was a good deal of sympathy poured over the Pakistan radio for all the separatists in this country, for all people who could commit aggression against their own nation, for all people who cotrid turn traitors. But they found none. This is one of the lessons that Pakistan must learn in its own interests, not in our interest only but in its own interest I repeat, and also that India is a democracy, is a free 3emo-cracy, is a secular democracy, that the nation, in spite of its stresses and. strains, in spite of differences in I language and creed and even in political ideologies, can stand together in the face of a national crisis.

Mr. Dahyabhai Patel criticised Shri Jawaharlal Nehru for having left this

DR. GOPAL SINGH (Nominated): Mr. Chairman, it is extremely kind of you to have given us this opportu- 5573 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5574 Kashmir issue open, but he did not commend Thirdly, Shri Jawaharlal Nehru was the first what Shri Jawaharlal Nehru had done to this to tell us that military pacts in times of war great country under his very wise and would not help, as Pakistan would now come dynamic leadership. Three things he had done to'realise— if it has not already realised, then which have stood us in very good stead at this it should come to realise very soon— that it time. One was that not only was a secular, just does nut help you exactly when you need democratic Constitution written out and them most. It is a very good augury for all of passed in the Constituent Assembly but it was us that Mr. Bhutto instead of talking of a worked by him, it was put into practice by him plebiscite, of which he was talking only three and everybody believed from the core of his days before the cease-fire, has suddenly heart that Shri Jawaharlal Nehru stood for changed his tone and said: "Even if we have secularism and that/he was not paying it only to go to war for a thousand years, hence we lip service. That ideal of secular demo racy shall wage a war and have Kashmir for has stood us in very good stead. ourselves". That also shows they want Kashmir anyhow and the plebiscite is only an The second was that no amount of foreign excuse. T hope the recent experience has put aid and arms from abroad could help us at a some sense into Mr. Bhutto'^ hsad. Then we time of national emergency, as Pakistan has should be thankful to Pakistan as Shri seen to its own cost. They were searching for Jairamdas Daulatram has said, for launching spare parts, and the spare parts would not this aggression which has given us this self- come. Even their allies in CElTTO and assurance of fighting for our freedom and also SEATO refused to oblige them right at a time for teaching them a new lesson which they when they needed them most. One of them, ought to have learnt by no"-, anyhow. Iran, sent them an ambulance car and a few nurses. The Turkish Government also promis- Shri Dahyabhai Patel and several others ed Rs. 2.5 crores worth of spare parts, but our have criticised the United States for having military experts told us that they could not be given Pakistan the Patton tanks, the majority sufficient for more than two days in a war of of which we have destroyed. Those should not this nature. This is also what Shri Jawaharlal have been used against us, they said, because Nehru had said that if this nation at all has to of the assurances given by the United States, go to war in serf-defence, it could do so only and because we accepted these assurances in if it produced its own arms. You have seen good faith. I do not know who gave that that our Gnats and other equipment, that we assurance and why we accepted it in good derided in this very House, have stood us in faith. I say this because of the fact that good stead. We were so enthusiastic about the whoever has seen the Patton tanks will know supersonic aircraft that we used to say that we that these cannot be used against Russia or should have them from any source we could China through Pi-kistan; they cannot be used get them because they are so very modern and even in East Pakistan; they can only be used sophisticated. Our own manufactures did not in the flat plains of Punjab. You ask any put self-confidence into us. But the self- military expert and he will till you that these confidence springs from the moral" right of tanks, these heavy, massive structures, can your cause. The self-confidence ' should only be used where triev have been used in the spring from the free society of which you are recent conflict and not against China and a part. Self-confidence does not come from Russia. Many people have criticised sophisticated arms, as the Pakistanis ought to _ and very rightly so—the attitude know to their cost. of the United States and Great Britain 5575 Discussion on Security [RAJYA SABHA] Council Resolution 5576 [Dr. Gopal Singh.] towards this war. our mind very calm, cool and collected, However, peopie who have studied with because the friends whom you are care the newspapers of Great Britain and denouncing today on account of Pakistan, America in the initial stages of this war you might like to go to tomorrow in case and later would realise how this realisa- of your fight with China. Therefore, we tion gradually dawned upon them that it is have to keep a balance in our thinking. In Pakistan that has aggressed. And some of the heat of the moment we should not the letters and the correspondence—I am take any decision which we might regret not divulging any secret when I say this— tomorrow. that have been exchanged between the Western diplomats and the Prime Minister lately have admitted as to the One point more and I will have done, fact of aggression by Pakistan. Secondly, and it is this. We have been told that we they have also come to realise that India had agreed to a plebiscite in Kashmir and is not that weak that they blurted it out to that we have gone back on this assurance. be. Thirdly, they have also realised, I If any assurance had been given, it was believe, that it is in the interests of the not given to Pakistan because Pakistan is United States, Great Britain and the not a party to the dispute except as an U.S.S.R. to join hands in this region, not aggressor; it is with the Kashmiri people only for the sake of preserving India's with whom we had any commitment, if at democracy, but for the sake of fighting all, and that commitment has been, if I China which is not only a menace to us, may say so, fulfilled. And if the but a menace to the whole world. Kashmiris think that we have not fulfilled Therefore, we must .realise it, and our part of the commitment, then it is for Pakistan would also realise in due course, them to come and settle it with their own I do hope, that it is in the interests of nation. Of course, people say that we Pakistan also to join hands with us along should not go to the conference table to with the USA, the United Kingdom and talk with President Ayub Khan and talk the U.S.S.R., to fight the menace that is about anything. It will be a wrong attitude looming large over the horizon of the to take because we have got quite a few world, not only against us, but against the things to talk about with President Ayub whole world and against all civilised Khan. Our business even in Kashmir is values that we hold dear. Therefore, it is not yet over. They are occupying one- no use criticising either Great Britain for third of Kashmir; through the act of what it did initially or the United States. aggression which she committed, Pa- We are elated at the successes that we kistan is now holding one-third of have achieved. Of course, our Jawans Kashmir's territory. Therefore, to suggest have done very well, so have our airmen; that we should not go to the conference they have done a tremendous job, a table, that we should not talk to President magnificent job. We are proud of them and of the Defence Minister who has been Ayub Khan on any issue whatsoever is their leader, and we accept his assurance not right. We have to talk to him, we have that even if the attack comes from China, to talk to everybody; and as I have said, we will be able to meet it with the we must keep our powder dry but our determination and resolution with which heads cool, we have to take a detached we have met the attack from Pakistan. But view of things, and also to have as many at this stage when we are not only being fritends in the world as possible. In this threatened by Pakistan but also by China, connection, T would just like to refer to the presence of U.S. armies in South we should keep our fingers crossed and while we should keep our powder dry, we Viet-Nam. I would beg of the should also keep Government not to do anything to embarrass their position because they are holding a very delicate balance 5577 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5578 between China and the rest of the world, if I may say so. Therefore, it will not (be in our interest to ask them - to quit or ask them not to bomb the bases—as we ourselves have done— from where that aggression has come or to recognise the Viet Cong, or to have elections on the basis of 11554 Geneva agreement. We cannot recognise the guerillas in Kashmir. Can we? Therefore, do not ask them to. . .

SHRI ARJUN ARORA (Uttar Pradesh): How does the hon. Member equate India and America? When our forces operate in Kashmir, they are in our own territory, while the Americans operate in a foreign territory.

DR. GOPAL SINGH: If you ask the Americans to come to your rescue and aid you if China attacks you, they will come to your territory, and you ask them to come to your own advantage. They are going there to help South Viet Nam. Be reasonable, do not be led by party slogans and by emotion. Work in the interests of the nation, and also world peace to which We desire with all our heart. We want more and more of friends especially among those with whom we share our basic ideals. Therefore, I beg of you not to create more complex problems for your nation. We have had enough of them. We went to the United Nations as the aggrieved party in 1947, and we have come out as the aggressors, because our diplomacy misfired. We have, of course, to make better propaganda abroad, propaganda without policy is meaningless. It is through policy that you win friends and more or less permanent allies. It would be a sad day if Pakistan gets out of the Commonwealth or the United Nations. We have to convince (even Pakistan that it will be in its larger interest in its longrange interest, to stay with us and not go along with China because China might seem today to be rather a big and a very tremendous ally, but tomorrow this giant of China Would be eating up Pakistan, as it wants to eat us up today. 5579 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 558

5581 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5582.

5583 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA] Council Resolution 5584

". . . arid cslls upon both Gov- ernments to : ssue orders for a cease- fire at tl at moment and a subsequent wit! drawal of all armed personnel back to the positions held by them befcre the 5th August, 1965;"

5585 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5586

"What steps should be taken to assist towards the settlement of the political problems underlying the present conflict."

5587 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5588^

t[ ] Hindi transliteration. 5589 Discussion on iecurity [24 SEP. 1965] Council Resolution 5590

5591 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5592;

". . . and calls upon both Governments to issue orders for a cease-fire at that moment and a subsequent withdrawal of all armed personnel back to the positions held by them before the 5 August, 1965;"

''What steps should be taken to assist towards the settlement of the political problems underlying the present conflict."

5593 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5594. the unity of India and they have demonstrated to the world that this propaganda, which Pakistan has been making against the principles on which our nation is founded, is absolutely false. Let me also congratulate the Government and all the political parties which supported the Government. In particular let me congratulate the Education Minister who made a significant contribution to the proceedings in the Security Council, who made a magnificent and splendid performance there. We do not realise here quite what the atmosphere 'in the Security Council and in the halls of the United Nation is. Forces are working there and there are counter-forces and the resolutions emerge after a great amount of discussion. A very large amount of discussions take place and after the exposition which Mr. Chagla made, after the explanation that he has given, I feel that this Resolution is a success. Many dcubts which I, along with certain other friends, had entertained, have been resolved by the statement made by the Education Minister sad I feel and I hope many hon. Members in this House will feel that nothing better could be done. Now the question that arises is, how long we shall continue with this state of affairs. Through these eighteen years we have been harassed, we have suffered. Innocent people have suffered. The latest is the attack on the civilian DODulation. Must not there now be a permanent solution to this problem? What is it which has caused this agony and suffering? Pakistan's claim is to annex the territory of India, the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir. They have shown great solicitude for the welfare of our people Vi Jammu and Kashmir State. They are not their people. They claim that they are their kith and kin and that theory has been exploded, and the more important thing is, there is no legal basis, no rational basis for any claim to be made ah SHRI G. S. PATHAK (Uttar Pradesh): Mr. the 20th century on the basis of race or Chairman, I shall be very brief. I join my religion. What claim has Pakistan to our voice in the tributes which have been paid to territory? Is it not merely on our Defence Forces. They have not only defended the freedom of our country, they have achieved a greater objective. The Education Minister had stated in the course of his intervention that the real conflict between India and Pakis. tan is a conflict of ideologies. It is in that conflict that our Defence Forces have achieved a signal success. They have, by shedding blood together, fighting together, cemented

3595 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5596 [Shri G. S. Pathak.] the ground that there MR. CHAIRMAN; Not many, I suppose, are co-religionists on the other side of the line? because I have a long list of speakers still, and But a more important question that arises is, I think I would be able to accommodate only why has the international • community two or three. tolerated this situation so far? It is an experience of history that whenever nations SHRI G. S. PATHAK: Then I won't take have tolerated -aggression, repeated more than two or three minutes. aggressions for a long • time, these aggressions have always resulted in wars and It is too late in the day now to discuss the sometimes world wars. I am reminded of what accession or the legality of the accession in this Mr. Truman has said in his memoirs. He has House or : where in the world. It is well known given various incidents in order to prove that and I find it published in a Government where aggression is not checked, war is publication that the legal adviser of the United inevitable and if I am not wrong, he was Nations Commission pronounced himself, or pondering over this question when he had stated that the accession was legal and valid. received the news of an attack in Korea arid in Found- ' ed upon that views assurances were his memoirs he says that wars are the result if given by the Security Council in 1948 that our aggression is not checked and not checked at sovereignty shall not be challenged, etc. I shall the proper time. Therefore we have had not enumerate them. Now this amounts to a enough of these meetings in the Security clear pronouncement by the Security Council Council called at the instance of Pakistan. Our itself, that the sovereignty of India, and Jammu Ministers have got to go to the Security and Kashmir State shall not be challenged; that Council because Pakistan, through its friends amounts to a declaration. Why should then a and supporters, is able to call a meeting. question of plebiscite, or a question whether Sometime ago Pakistan said, when no the accession is legal or valid be open to resolution was passed favourable to Pakistan, discussion today? When the conferences take that it was going to have a military decision. place I am sure, after the speeches made by the That military decision came and again there Prime Minister, after the declarations~ made had to be a discussion in the Security Council on behalf of the Government by the Education and the question is—and it is a vital question Minister, that this question shall not be open for us—how long shall we have to suffer, how for discussion at any conference, all that can be long innocent people shall have to suffer? The discussed at the conference is what are the human aspect, Sir, must not be forgotten. Ac- political problems. There are no political cording to me, this is a crime against problems surviving except the enforcement of humanity—when people have to suffer on our rights to the territory which is not in our account of this attitude of Pakistan —and possession today; there is no other political unless in the conferences which are going to problem surviving. Another problem may be be ^~id the Security Council takes an whether we can be asked to give up those objective attitude, takes an objective view strategic positions, those territories, which we based upon international law and justice, you have taken, without which it will not be cannot uphold the principles en which the possible to have the security of the territory peace of the world can be founded, can be which is in our possession. Out of sheer based, can be continued. necessitv on the ground of our sovereignty, those should not be allowed to be vacated. I (Time bell rings.) feel, Sir, after the statement made by the Education Minister, that this 5th of August line is a temporary phase, that there will Now, Sir, I will take just a few •minutes more. 5597 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5598

be a decision, an ultimate decision of the question how far our sovereignty extends. And at these conferences there must be some nVial decision, and I expect that the international border would be determined, so that we may have peace in future. Thank you, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Murahari. I would request you to be brief, because I would call upon the Prime Minister at quarter to six. I want to accommodate three speakers before then.

5599 Dis:ussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 560O

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mani. I would like to see if you can make a brief speech. SHRI A. D. MANI (Madhya Pradesh): I always make brief speeches, Sir. I will take c*ily ten minutes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Say seven minutes, I would like to accommodate another speech. SHRI A. D. MANI: Mr. Chairman, may I join the other speakers who have paid very well deserved tributes to our Jawans who have fought for the freedom of our country and suffered and have died for the freedom of the country? Many points have been raised in this debate and I do not want to refer to them. But I would like to refer to a statement made by the Leader of the House that the Resolution of the Security Council was a point in our favour and was a defeat for Pakistan. I quite concede, and this is 5601 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Council Resolution 5602 accepted by the world, that the Resolution of paid tribute to China and unfortunately, by the Security Council has been a major reverse allowing Pakistan equality and parity of to Pakistan, because Pakistan expected that status with India in this matter, the Security the plebiscite issue irT some form or the Council has disappointed our country, and other, would find place in the Resolution of has not fulfilled our expectations and also of the Security Council. I am glad Mr. Chagla all those who fesl that it would be in a was present in New York to counter position to rouse the moral authority of the Pakistan's moves in this matter and as far as a world community. reference of the kind of solution of Kashmir has been omitted from the Resolution. I can certainly say that it is a point in our favour. Sir, a point was made by my hon. nd, Shri But, Sir, the Security Council has put up a Vajpayee to which the" Leader of the House very disappointing performance. As a major referred and that was about India's continuing and final peace-keeping agency in the United her membership with the Commonwealth of Nations, it was expected that the Security Nations. I know that the British attitude has Council would designate the aggressor, been extremely partisan. It is not in tune with because in these matters, the boosting of the the tradition of British history. Unfortunately, moral influence all over the world is an on account of the losses that she sustained in essential factor in building up an atmosphere the second World War she became a second- against the aggressor. Even though Gen. rate power. But still she was a first-rate power Nimmo's report was made available to the because of the values that she stood for and members of the Security Coun_ cil, it upheld. But by taking up openly this partisan required considerable pressure from Mr. line with Pakistan, I am sorry to say Britain Chagla to get the report published in the Press has become a third-rate power and this will so that the world knew that Pakistan was the undermine the moral influence that she has in aggressor. It was open to the Security Council the Commonwealth of Nations. I would not to have taken the line that as far as the events like our Government to take any precipitate of August 5th were concerned, Pakistan had action. violated one of its major undertakings to the With regard to the future, I would like to United Nations. And while not condemning say that it has been made clear by the Prime the aggressor, I am afraid the Security Minister to U Thant that we would not allow Council has given more or less, indirect this question of Kashmir to be brought up approval to the collusive conspiracy of China again because we regard Kashmir as an and Pakistan to invade this country. integral part of this country. We have also taken the line that with regard to our future Sir, I would like to invite your security in these ateas, these forward areas we attention to a statement made by. would not allow any arrangements which President Ayub Khan on September, 22. would undermine our security. As faT as the When he announced the ceasefire on the Security Council is concerned, it should be radio, he said: under no illusion whatever that what we have accepted is cease-fire in the terms and condi- "The moral support which the Chinese tions stipulated by the Prime Minister; and in Government has extended to Pakistan will this matter may I say that the Prime Minister ever remain enshrined in our hearts." has shown remarkable leadership of which this country is proud? He has spoken not only He did not refer to the United Nations. He did for the Government but also for all sections of not refer to the United States of America with our population, including whose arms he had invaded this country. He ,.603 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5604 [Shri A. D. Mani.] the Members ol the words are not adequate enough to convey to Opposition. Therefore, when the Prime this House the uppermost feelings in their Minister has said that, it is the determined will minds. Many of the soldiers who are of the whole nation, and if the Security wounded, when you speak to them, express Council tries to reopen this matter in any the desire uppermost in their minds to go back form, then the responsibility for peace would to the front again. I was driving in a truck in be that of the Security Council. There cannot police uniform and the young driver who was be any period of compulsory friendship driving asked me—of course he spoke in between one nation and another, particularly Punjabi— when that nation is not prepared to have a 5TT ^t ?T f "Who is the next man?" He was a reasonable understanding with India. As long colleague, a Member of Parliament and I said, as there is no change of heart in Pakistan, it "We happen to be Members of Parliament, will be extremely unwise to force the pace of coming from Delhi". This happened about these meetings. These meetings should come ten days in the natural course of time and a very heavy ago. He said: %T^ft *TT% T^f SpTf q- spf responsibility rests, therefore, upon the "Please do not make peace in Delhi". It is not Security Council and it should not ask any that he was necessarily a war-monger or he time-table to be observed between India and wanted war to be continued but it only reflects Pakistan with regard to the other parts of the their desire that we should not accept peace Resolution that has been adopted. which is not honourable and in the process of accepting peace we should see that we do not These are my submissions, Sir, and finally go to pieces. I am perfectly willing to concede may I add that as far as these matters are what the hon. Education Minister has said concerned, we have demonstrated to the about the Resolution, that it favours us in so world that there is no Hindu-Muslim question far as the Pakistani spokesmen have not been in this country? The country has become able to get any of their four points stronger as a result of this conflict. Wars are incorporated but as it stands, I think, we always ghastly affairs. Efven so, in this should express our disappointment. I say this conflict we had the privilege of seeing that because when Mr. Bhutto spoke over the radio democracy can fight, that Indian democracy the other day, he said, "We are most can show a remarkable sense of unity which disappointed. Most reluctantly we accept will confound all historians who have thought this". The idea that he was obviously trying to that India is a nation of communities. There is create was that they are obliging the Security only one class of people inhabiting this Council, that they are very good people. If we country. They are all Indians and it has been do not register our protest over some of the our privilege to see this nation rise to the inadequacies, some of the shortcomings, I same stature to which it rose in 1942, and a think, the impression may go round, erroneous nation which has risen to this stature can it will be, tha't we are very jubilant, very never surrender to the aggressive designs of happy with the Resolution. I think the Pakistan. redeeming feature of the Resolution is one. the assurances given by the Prime Minister to DR. ANUP SINGH (Punjab): Mr. this House and made abundantly clear to the Chairman, before I say anything about the Security Council that on matters of principle, Resolution itself, I also have an almost so far as Kashmir is concerned, it belongs to irrepressible urge to pay tributes which are India, it will stay with India, Security Council well deserved, to the Jawans who have really or no Security Council. Secondly, Sir, in my saved the honour of the country. I personally opinion, if any attempt is made by either of visited some of them on the front and the powers in collusion with 5605 Discussion on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 ] Cowncij Resolution 5606 each other to bring about the plebiscite issue, I or his colleagues happen to be here. I think think the Soviet Union can be depended upon they have shown inflexibility and to veto it. This will be quite in conformity determination where matters of principles are with their previous commitments and which concerned and realism where matters of detail have been repeated up till now. As for are concerned. A tribute is also due to the Kashmir itself, Sir, a great deal has been said. Defence Minister who has exhibited a great I would like just to add one thing. There are deal 'of optimism and imperturbability of some people in our country, and many of them spirit and, finally, Sir, I say, as one humble abroad, who have said that an independent Member of the Congress, that a tribute is also Kashmir may be an equitable solution. I hope due to the Opposition which has willingly and that that illusion, very fine illusion is dispelled spontaneously submerged all differences and for ever. Even hypothetically, if Pakistan were which has risen to the occasion, India first to come forward for independence— I said and India last. Thank you, Sir. hypothetically because no one in Kashmir, no one in his senses can, for a moment, believe THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI LAL that that independence can last even a day—it BAHADUR): Mr. Chairman, I must express cannot serve any purpose. If a great country, my gratitude to all the hon. Members who big country like India can be invaded, have participated in the debate today. There infiltrators can come in surreptiously, openly, have been several speakers and they have laid can a State between India and Pakistan emphasis on one aspect or the other of the survive for a day? I think, so far as that is burning issues but I have heard from every concerned, the problem is settled once and for side of the House only one voice, the voice of all. About the future, Sir, a number of patriotism, of national will to defend the presuppositions, postulates, etc., have sovereignty and territorial integrity of India, undergone very drastic and very serious no matter who the invader may be. This is the changes. There is no time to go into all that voice of the people of India expressed in un- but cne thing I would like to say so far as mistakable terms through both Houses of defence is concerned. We should try to make Parliament. This is the voice of the sovereign ourselves as self-sufficient in defence as is will of the people. Hon. Members would humanly possible. Let us not have any illusion permit me to recall that in April last I had that anybody else would come to our rescue. appealed for the unity of heart amongst our They may, they may not but we cannot aflord people. That unity has been achieved in the to take any chance. I have spoken and, I think, fullest measure and has been demonstrated written against India going in for the effectively in these critical days. In fact, it is manufacture of nuclear weapons. I must tMs unity which has been the biggest source confess that I am beginning to have doubts of strength to all of us in these testing times. and misgivings about that policy. I am not clear in my mind but I do submit with all The cease-fire has already come about in humility that this is a proposition that must be spite of Pakistan's intransigence. It is likely considered very seriously with all the that when we consider the subsequent steps earnestness that it demands. I am also further difficulties and complications might temperamentally opposed to compulsory arise. It is by no means going to be an easy military training but I again submit that this task, especially in view of the threats given may also be necessary. even after the acceptance of the cease-fire by Finally, Sir, one thing more. I would like President Ayub Khan and his Foreign to add to the tributes and that is not because Minister. the Prime Minister

5607 Discussion on Security [ RAJYA SABHA ] Council Resolution 5608 [Shri Lai Bahadur.] I have made India's to endeavour to bring about an improvement position absolutely clear in my letter of the in the relationship between India and 14th September, 1965, addressed to the Pakistan. Their intentions are pure and we Secretary-General of the United Nations. Our have, therefore, welcomed their initiative. understanding of the three Resolutions of the Security Council is that they are applicable to Some hon. Members have referred to the both regular forces and the infiltrators from work of our diplomatic missions abroad. I can Pakistan. Pakistan must own and discharge tell the House with complete sincerity that on the responsibility of withdrawing the the present occasion each one of our missions infiltrators from our State of Jammu and has been alert and vigilarrt. They have done a Kashmir. Further, they are continuing to dis- good job in keeping the Government to which claim all responsibility for the infiltration they are accredited fully informed of the despite the report of the Secretary-General developments and of the justness of our himself. If Pakistan persists in this attitude cause. The attitude which some Governments India alone must deal with the infiltrators take is not in my view dependent upon or effectively and force them out. More, over, even affected by what our ambassadors have we shall never allow any arrangement for {he to say. There are preconceived notions and future in which there may be possibilities of prejudices which one has to contend with. It further infiltrations. must nevertheless be our persistent effort to project our case in the best possible manner About our State of Jammu and Kashmir, and to win friends for India in all parts of the the House knows our stand which is firm and world. clear. This State is an integral part of India a constituent unit of the Federal Union of India. Some suggestions have been made by Shri There is no case for exercise of self- Jairamdas Daulatramji with a view to helping determination again. The people of Jammu those who have suffered. Government has and Kashmir have already exercised the right already taken several steps. We will however, of self-determination through three General further consider the suggestions he has Elections held on the basis of universal adult offered. franchise.

I feel grateful for and heartened by the A few words are necessary, Mr. Chairman, unanimity of support for the policy which the about the home front. The momentum which Government has followed in meeting the the nation has gained will have to be kept up. challenge of the recent aggression. However, Our defence preparedness will have to be improved continuously. We will have to I would like to say that dangers still lie ahead remain vigilant all along our frontiers. For even after a cease-fire has become effective. strengthening our defences a good deal of Those dangers are very real indeed. W e sacrifice will be needed on the part of the should surely oe prepared to meet them and country as a whole. We may all have to our preparations will not be relaxed. accept privations and even our economic development may have to be slowed down We have agreed to the use of the good somewhat in order that our defences are not offices of Mr. Kosygin, the Chairman of the weakened. Council of Ministers of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union today is an ardent champion of peace. They have known the horrors of war and they do want in a friendly spirit I To the tasks that lie ahead shall address ourselves in a realistic manner and in full awareness of the fact that self-reliance must be our watchword. 5609 Discission on Security [ 24 SEP. 1965 J Council Resolution 5610 I am grateful to this august House for the MR. CHAIRMAN: Let us an stand and magnificent support which it has given in observe a minute's silence in grateful these historic times. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I remembrance of all those who have shed would appeal to the House to authorise you to their lives in order that we might live in carry through you or through our Defence honour. Minister, the admiration and gratitude of the House to our armed forces for the splendid job they have dene. I would also, with your (Hon. Members then stood in silence for one permission, like to suggest that the House minute) should rise and observe a minute's silence to honour the memory of those soldiers, airmen, policemen and civilians who have become MR. CHAIRMAN: The House stands martyrs in the defence of their motb.erla.nd. adjourned sine die. Thank you. The House then adjourned sine die at fifty-five minutes past five of the clock.

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