The Doctor's Biography

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8 May 2008, 3:04 am sariel2004 The novel Doctor’s background Time Lord I started a thread about contradictions between the TV series and the novels and it touched on Gallifrey and the Doctors origins. I didn't want to stray too far from the point over there but I did want to see what people thought of how I understand his origin to be…

Joined April 24, 2004 Ancient Gallifreyans were immortal and highly telepathic; they Last On: Today 1:10 lived in a Hellenistic society ruled by the line of Pythias. As the first am time travel experiments were conducted, the Pythia was overthrown by Rassilon and he began to reform Gallifreyan society, aided by Posts Here: 136 Omega and the Other. Rassilon engineered the accident that trapped Omega in a singularity as they used the Hand of Omega to unleash the energy they needed to become lords of time and the time energies altered the Gallifreyan present. When Rassilon became too dictatorial, the Other tried to leave and threw himself into the central loom, which was linked to the Houses of Gallifrey, to escape (having first sent off his adoptive granddaughter to try to escape the planet). At this time there were heavy riots and Rassilon may have been executing the other old Gallifreyans, leaving himself as ruler of the newly loomed (and slightly re-engineered) Gallifreyans, no longer as telepathic and with regenerations instead of true immortality. Some escaped, including Patience, Omega’s wife, who hid for aeons in the House of Lungbarrow.

The Other’s biodata fed into the loom of the Noble House of Lungbarrow, but having been exposed to the intense time energies they jumped forward almost two million years before they expressed themselves and finally came out in the biodata of a lungbarrovian called Ulysses, who went on to be a great explorer of his age. Ulysses met a human time traveller, Penelope Gate, the two fell in love and he brought her home to Gallifrey, where they married (marriage and partnership being rare and with a lesser species in bad taste, but not actually wrong). The two had a son, the first born on Gallifrey since the curse, and he was brought up at his family home, where he was tutored by Patience (the High Council were largely unconcerned by this once the boy seemed normal and let it go). Patience recognised the Other’s spark in the Doctor and when he grew up they became lovers and eventually married. They had children as well and they took their place in Time Lord society. Unfortunately, Marnal, a rival of Ulysses, had realised who Patience was and even as Ulysses imprisoned him on Earth he revealed her origins to the high council. The council were horrified: they could take cavorting with lesser species but an ancient Gallifreyan terrified them. They stormed Lungbarrow and killed the Doctor’s children. Patience escaped (with the aid of the Hartnell Doctor) to a prototype time-ship and fled to the planet seen in Cold Fusion , where she lay in suspended animation for 2 million years (it was programmed to return to its time of origin, though at different physical coordinates). The Doctor (pre-Hartnell ) was captured by the Time Lords, who were unsure what to do. He was a respected member of the Council and though he had consorted with Patience was not corrupted with her blood and they were loathe to kill him (a prophecy may have stated that he had an important destiny, staying their hand as well). Nevertheless, the scandal had to be hushed up. Eventually they decided to erase his memory and reloom him. He would be reborn as all Gallifreyans are and there would be no evidence of his past.

The First Doctor emerged from the loom and met his cousins, many of whom regarded him as odd. None knew of the Doctor’s past as the Time Lords had tampered with their minds, too. He went through his brain buffing, being tutored by Badger, and enrolled in the Time Academy. There he was by turns brilliant – becoming part of the Deca – and awful – deliberately getting low marks as a sign of rebellion. He and his friends encountered the Toymaker, but only he escaped and as a result he was expelled. He did, however, manage to complete his studies in his spare time and get readmitted (to the disgust of some, horribly easily). He then continued as a scrutinary archivist, being largely ignored until Lungbarrow’s Kithriarch, Quences, deathday, when he was found by the Hand of Omega and left Gallifrey with it. The Hand allowed him to journey into Gallifrey’s past and it took him to the old times during Rassilon’s purges. There he met Susan, who recognised him as her grandfather, and he rescued her, somehow knowing it was true

The Hand then took him forward in time to witness the attack on his family and he saw his offspring perish. He managed to save the newborn Susan, however, and used the prototype time machine to send her back to ancient Gallifrey, where he now knew she would survive until he collects her as an adolescent (which, from his perspective, he has just done). She is sent back and, in a twist of synchronicity, is adopted by the Other. The Doctor then helps Patience to escape and puts her in the prototype time machine and sends her away (he recognises her at this point and knows at least vaguely who she is, but he keeps this from her). The Doctor and Susan then travel on, finally reaching Totter’s Lane, where he leaves the Hand behind . and the rest hopefully you all know .

I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be the way it happened from what I've read and put together. does this sound right and did I miss anything ? #2 8 May 2008, 10:46 am

Doktor Wer Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord When the Pythia was cast out at the beginning of the Age of Reason, she left behind a curse making the Time Lords unable to bear children (hence the looms). She and her followers decamped to the Cologne nearby planet of Karn, where they later became the Sisterhood that Joined April 19, 2005 tended the flame. Last On: Today 10:08 am Posts Here: 210

#3 8 May 2008, 1:21 pm

Andrew Kearley Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 does this sound right and did I miss anything ?

It's a perfectly workable theory based on what we learn in the books, Poole, Dorset though I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to it all myself. Joined October 3, 2004 For instance: Last On: Today 3:26 Quote: pm Originally Posted by sariel2004 Posts Here: 942 eventually they decided to erase his memory and Posts in OG Forum: reloom him. he would be reborn as all Gallifreyans are and there 1,241 would be no evidence of his past.

the first Doctor emerged from the loom and met his cousins , many of whom regarded him as odd. none knew of the Doctors past as the Timelords had tampered with there minds too.

I'm not sure I could agree with this. I personally like to think that the Doctor re-engineered his own "relooming" as a way to evade capture by the High Council.

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#4 8 May 2008, 1:46 pm

Howard A Treesong Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Andrew Kearley It's a perfectly workable theory based on what we learn in the books, though I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to it all myself. Wales For instance: Joined April 18, 2004 Last On: Today 2:49 pm Posts Here: 5,711 I'm not sure I could agree with this. I personally like to think that Posts in OG Forum: the Doctor re-engineered his own "relooming" as a way to evade 9,558 capture by the High Council.

I agree, I like to think the doctor hid from them, but effectively hid his past from himself too, the only way to truly protect his remaining family. But other than that, everything above is pretty sound I think. It's more or less what I've surmised before, but fleshed out quite a bit.

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#5 8 May 2008, 7:55 pm sariel2004 Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Glad to hear we agree on the broad strokes then, I am torn with the High Council capturing the Doctor or his engineering his own escape to a degree, but I figured since none of his family in Lungbarrow seem aware of his past that they probably had their minds wiped too and that seemed more likely if the council did it (also it drives home the fact that the Time Lords are a threat to the Doctor’s liberty). That said, there’s a certain poetry to the idea Joined April 24, 2004 that the Doctor hid right under the council’s noses in the very place Last On: Today 1:10 he had escaped from. am Posts Here: 136

#6 8 May 2008, 9:32 pm

Andrew Kearley Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 I am torn with the High council capturing the Doctor or his engineering his own escape to a degree , but I figured since none of his family in Lungbarrow seem aware of his past that they probably had there minds wiped too and that seemed Poole, Dorset more likely if the council did it Joined October 3, 2004 Well, my thinking on that is that the members of the House of Last On: Today 3:26 Lungbarrow believe the Doctor to be a brand new cousin. So they pm would have no reason to think that he could be their missing relative Posts Here: 942 "re-loomed". If, as I like to think, he's engineered this himself, then Posts in OG Forum: it's only his own memory that needs to be suppressed, which I think 1,241 is a more elegant solution.

#7 9 May 2008, 1:12 pm

Estall Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 started a thread about contradictions between the TV series and the novels and it touched on Gallifrey and the Doctors origins , I Oxford didn't want to stray to far from the point over there but I did want to see what people thought of Joined April 21, 2004 how I understand his origin to be. Last On: 28 May 2009 10:42 am I like this; great effort! Posts Here: 548 Posts in OG Forum: A few thoughts though. 1191 Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 the two fell in love and married and he brought her home to Gallifrey , where they married ( marriage and partnership being rare and with a lesser species in bad taste but not actually wrong ) the two had a son.

Where would Braxiatel (The Doctor's brother) come into it? It would seem that this is the best place for him to appear, but I imagine that 'our' Doctor considers him to be his brother. If Braxiatel is the 'pre'-Doctor's brother, how much of the Doctor's previous life does he remember?

Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 there he met Susan , who recognised him as her grandfather and he rescued her, somehow knowing it was true.

Whilst this part is exactly how it's described in Lungbarrow, it's a part that I don't like much. I prefer Susan to be his actual Grand-daughter. However, if the Doctor remembers his pre-Hartnell selves (even just partially), and considers himself to be the same person, then I'm happy. I don't like the idea of de-sexualising the Doctor just because he's never blatantly fallen in love (prior to his 10th version), so removing Susan from 'our' Doctor's heritage does not sit well for me (unless he remembers and considers his pre-first selves to be still him). Does that make sense?

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#8 9 May 2008, 4:52 pm Doktor Wer Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord So the Doctor is not the reincarnation as The Other, who was Susan's actual grandfather, as revealed in Lungbarrow ?

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#9 9 May 2008, 8:13 pm sariel2004 Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Where would Braxiatel (The Doctor's brother) come into it? It would seem that this is the best place for him to appear, but I imagine that 'our' Doctor considers him to be his brother. If Braxiatel is the 'pre'-Doctor's brother, how much of the Doctor's previous life does he remember? Joined April 24, 2004 Last On: Today 1:10 am I hadn't given Braxiatel any thought to be honest, but yes he would be the pre-Hartnell Doctor’s brother. I figure he probably Posts Here: 136 remembers most of the previous Doctor’s history since he is aware they are not just cousins. Braxiatel is certainly politically shrewd enough to have managed to sidestep the scandal.

Quote: Whilst this part is exactly how it's describe d in Lungbarrow, it's a part that I don't like much. I prefer Susan to be his actual Grand-daughter. However, if the Doctor remembers his pre-Hartnell selves (even just partially), and considers himself to be the same person, then I'm happy. I don't like the idea of de-sexualising the Doctor just because he's never blatantly fallen in love (prior to his 10th version), so removing Susan from 'our' Doctor's heritage does not sit well for me (unless he remembers and considers his pre-first sleves to be still him).

My reasoning is when he first encounters Susan in ancient Gallifrey, he doesn't know who she is, he just feels it, but part of what the Hand of Omega is doing is giving him a tour of his own history and once he arrives in his own past and rescues baby Susan he knows who she is and, yes, he partially remembers his past. It’s later when he is caught by the Time Lords in The War Games that they make him forget his pre-Hartnell existence again, hence the line in Cold Fusion , where the Doctor muses he lost so many of his memories after his second regeneration (and this is the other reason I went with the pre-Hartnell Doctor being captured by the Time Lords: they realise his previous memories are breaking through and block them again).

Quote: So the Doctor is not the reincarnation as The Other, who was Susan's actual grandfather, as revealed in Lungbarrow?

Yes he is the reincarnation of the Other, it’s just that the Other’s biodata emerged from the loom in Ulysses, where it lay dormant and then it found its expression when the Doctor was conceived. Ulysses is NOT the other, just a vector for the Other’s Biodata (or soul if you prefer).

#10 9 May 2008, 8:28 pm

Andrew Kearley Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 Yes he is the reincarnation of the Other

Oh, I don't go for that at all. I think there is some essence of the Poole, Dorset Other within the Doctor's biodata, but reincarnation is too strong a Joined October 3, word for it. I'm also sure the implication is that "Other-ness" only 2004 comes to fruition in the seventh Doctor, and it's only the seventh Doctor who can be called the reincarnation of the other. Last On: Today 3:26 pm Quote: Posts Here: 942 its just that the Others biodata emerged from the loom in Ulysses , Posts in OG Forum: where it lay dormant and then it found its expression when the 1,241 Doctor was conceived. Ulysses is NOT the other just a vector for the Others Biodata ( or soul if you prefer.)

I prefer to think that the Other's biodata lies within the Loom, and the Doctor picks it up during his "re-looming" into Hartnell. Yours is an interesting idea though...

#11 9 May 2008, 8:48 pm sariel2004 Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Oh, I don't go for that at all. I think there is some essence of the Other within the Doctor's biodata, but reincarnation is too strong a word for it. I'm also sure the implication is that "Other-ness" only comes to fruition in the seventh Doctor, and it's only the seventh Doctor who can be called the reincarnation of the other. Joined April 24, 2004 Last On: Today 1:10 am It can just as easily be essence without interfering with the gist of it, in fact I prefer to say biodata and leave it at that, but I wanted to Posts Here: 136 make the point that insofar as Lungbarrow says he is the reincarnation, hence this theory. Quote: I prefer to think that the Other's biodata lies within the Loom, and the Doctor picks it up during his "re-looming" into Hartnell. Yours is an interesting idea though...

Well if the Otherness was introduced at relooming, it alters the post- Hartnell Doctors into a different person to what the pre-Hartnells were, altering his core and making him something else (to me it puts a greater divide between post- and pre-Hartnell Doctors, making them slightly different people). Also, Patience had been at Lungbarrow for millions of years yet romanced the Doctor; I figured that spark of the Other was part of what she saw in him. I also thought it tied Lungbarrow and Cold Fusion together better, since the Other’s influence overshadows everything that happens (and I can almost see him finding Patience sanctuary in the newly formed house of Lungbarrow at some point).

#12 9 May 2008, 11:13 pm

Voyager Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 I hadn't given Braxiatel any thought to be honest, but yes he would be the pre Hartnell Doctors brother. I figure he probably Joined June 19, 2005 remembers most of the previous Doctors history since he is aware Last On: Yesterday they are not just cousins. Braxiatel is certainly politically shrewd 5:38 pm enough to have managed to sidestep the scandal. .) Posts Here: 112 While Brax is undoubtedly shadowy and devious enough to be the brother of the pre-Hartnell Doctor and much else besides, I like to view him simply as a slightly older loom cousin of Hartnell at Lungbarrow. His implications that he is the 'brother' of the Doctor, I treat as his way of describing complex Gallifreyan family relationships to 'mere mortals' in the wider universe. Though IIRC Rath in 'Blood Harvest' is described as the 'brother' of the late Goth from 'Deadly Assassin', which, in pre-'Lungbarrow' (Pythia's curse removed so natural child-bearing can happen again) Gallifrey, I again treat as meaning cousin, or at least, a description of a close bond between cousins - clutching at straws, moi? .

Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 My reasoning is when he first encounters Susan in ancient Gallifrey , he doesn't know who she is , he just feels it but part of what the hand of Omega is doing is giving him a tour of his own history and once he arrives in his own past and rescues baby Susan he knows who she is and, yes he partially remembers his past. Its later when he is caught by the Time lords in The War games that the time lords make him forget his pre Hartnell existence again hence the line in Cold Fusion , where the Doctor muses he lost so many of his memories after his second regeneration ( and this is the other reason I went with the pre Hartnell Doctor being captured by the Time lords, they realise his previous memories are breaking through and block them again.) .)

Interesting. Re. the 'War Games' bit, I hadn't thought of before, and I reread 'Cold Fusion' recently and remember the scene, too . I also like to think the Doctor we know does in some way vaguely recall certain events and feelings from his pre-Hartnell lives, though probably more Hartnell and Troughton pre-'War Games' and McCoy 'Remembrance' onwards (where those ancient memories seem to begin resurfacing) and McGann (who imo gets a complete set of all his memories pre-and-post Hartnell when his memories are restored post EDAs pre-Restoration of Gallifrey).

And a good resumé and reconciliation of the 'facts' as we have them in your first post. Like a few others, I err on the side of the pre- Hartnell Doctor doing something more heroic than just being captured and memory-wiped by the Time Lords - I prefer the idea that, after many adventures on the run from Gallifrey, for reasons unknown, he might have reached a point where he slipped back home, placed mental commands in his mind to submerge his true memories, and cast himself into the loom of Lungbarrow during a self-initiated regeneration, only to re-emerge millions of years later as Hartnell.

And am I the only person who finds the idea of the pre-Hartnell Doctor marrying his old wet-nurse Patience weird, if not slightly creepy?

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#13 10 May 2008, 2:03 am sariel2004 Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: And a good resume and reconciliation of the 'facts' as we have them in your first post. Like a few others, I err on the side of the pre-Hartnell Doctor doing something more heroic than just being captured and memory-wiped by the Time Lords - I prefer the idea that, after many adventures on the run from Gallifrey, for reasons Joined April 24, 2004 unknown, he might have reached a point where he slipped back Last On: Today 1:10 home, placed mental commands in his mind to submerge his true am memories, and cast himself into the loom of Lungbarrow during a Posts Here: 136 self-initiated regeneration, only to re-emerge millions of years later as Hartnell.

I reckon a lot of people prefer the idea that the Doctor escaped the Time Lords, fair enough I've stated my case, everyone can make their own decisions. I will say, though, either way I do think there was no significant time between the pre-Hartnell doctors "fall" and his relooming (which is to say I think either way the pre-Hartnell stuff happens just before the Hartnell stuff we see with no significant time-lag).

#14 10 May 2008, 2:25 am

Teatime Brutality Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Do we know for certain that the Doctor born to the House of Lungbarrow really was loomed at all? After all, how hard would it be to 'fake a looming' using some sort of Transmat?

That Glospin can talk about a specific sort of criminal called a Joined December 6, 'Loom-Jumper' suggests that this sort of thing isn't unheard of. With 2007 an inside man (Badger?) it shouldn't be too tricky. Last On: Today 3:15 pm I'm increasingly leaning towards the idea that Hartnell was simply the ninth incarnation of a Time lord naturally born to Ulysses and Posts Here: 105 Penelope who faked a looming in order to return to Gallifreyan society. That explains the bellybutton better than anything else I've heard and fits nicely with "Feels different this time..."

Of course there's the problem that this leaves the Doctor utterly unconnected to the Other, but perhaps that isn't a problem. After all, I like the sly hint in The Book of the War that the Other's biodata didn't simply reconstitute itself as one individual but rather expressed itself through the whole troublesome 'Deca generation.'

Maybe the Master's a closer copy of the Other than the Doctor ever was. In many ways they have the same mind.

#15 10 May 2008, 9:43 am

Andrew Kearley Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Teatime Brutality I'm increasingly leaning towards the idea that Hartnell was simply the ninth incarnation of a Time lord naturally born to Ulysses and Penelope who faked a looming in order to return to Gallifreyan society. That explains the bellybutton better than Poole, Dorset anything else I've heard and fits nicely with "Feels different this Joined October 3, time..." 2004 Last On: Today 3:26 That's pretty much how I view it, which I why I usually refer to a pm "re-looming" in quotation marks. There is a sense though that the Posts Here: 942 Doctor's consciousness lies dormant within the Loom for a little Posts in OG Forum: while - the flashback near the start of Lungbarrow where the young 1,241 Doctor tells Badger that he can remember being in the Loom waiting to be born, which Badger assures him is utterly impossible.

(Though I hadn't considered before that Badger could have been an accomplice in this - that's an interesting spin on it...)

Quote: Of course there's the problem that this leaves the Doctor utterly unconnected to the Other, but perhaps that isn't a problem.

Well, again, the idea that the Doctor might have resided within the Loom, even if for a short time, could explain this. I'm thinking on the hoof here, but let's see how this goes: if the Doctor is physically inside the Loom - he's been transmatted inside or whatever - he can't just pop out as a new incarnation, he has to wait until the House of Lungbarrow is ready to loom its new cousin. So I guess he'd drop himself into one of those deep healing trances, effectively shutting down his higher brain functions so as to avoid any telepathic detection - and presumably also suppressing all his own memories and setting up any post-hypnotic commands, etc. As the Looming time approaches, his regeneration is triggered - as his biodata coalesces into a ninth incarnation, it simply drags in something from within the Loom, and that's this essence of the Other. But that's why I don't think the Other business is such a big deal, and I don't like the idea that the Doctor is a "reincarnation" of the Other - it's just something buried deep inside his biodata that only really manifests itself later in the particular combination of biodata that creates the McCoy Doctor.

#16 13 May 2008, 11:05 am

Doktor Wer Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord I suspect I may be missing a trick here. Where does the stuff about a "pre-Hartnell Doctor" come from? Surely not just The Brain Of Morbius ? I don't want to contradict you or anything, just trying to Cologne keep up! Joined April 19, 2005 Last On: Today 10:08 For the record: read Lungbarrow a couple of times, where it seems am to be implied that Susan was the granddaughter of the Other and was rescued by the 1st Doctor when he somehow managed to travel back Posts Here: 210 to the Old Times. Just read Cold Fusion , where everything's a bit vague, but I'd heard of Patience before. Read The Gallifrey Chronicles when it came out, but can't remember the bits about Ulysses and his wife. Read The Room With No Doors when it came out, but can't remember anything . Read Unnatural History recently but didn't spot the background to Professor Joyce. Read The Infinity Doctors when it came out but can't remember much. This thread has inspired me to read it again.

You've really hooked me here. Clarification would be greatly appreciated. I also found this here .

#17 13 May 2008, 9:22 pm sariel2004 Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Ok let me see if I can help, doktor wer, The pre-Hartnell Doctors are indeed the ones suggested by Brain of Morbius. What we see in Cold Fusion is brief glimpses of them. The guy with the beard with Patience in the flashback, that’s him (in the "Camfield" body, IIRC); the flashback with the man looking at the warrant for his fathers arrest is the Doctor’s son, and the wife giving birth to their first child is Susan’s mother. The old man who gets Patience to safety who wears her husbands ring, that’s the Hartnell Doctor and as he said he has already rescued the grandchild (Susan). Joined April 24, 2004 The reason in the contact with Patience the Fifth Doctor seems to Last On: Today 1:10 recognise the memories is that they are his, although they are lost to am him at that point (hence the line about losing so many memories Posts Here: 136 after his second regeneration). We see more evidence in The Infinity Doctors . In Cold Fusion Patience regenerates from a body with freckles and brown hair into a woman with long blonde hair, who is later shot dead. In The Infinity Doctors , the Doctor’s picture of his wife is like Patience’s first body, but when he later meets her in Omega’s singularity she is in her second incarnation (we learn that at the moment of death Omega snatched her up and brought her there). She clearly recognises the Doctor as her husband and he recognises her, which suggests to me that he is clearly the man who married her that we saw in the flashbacks Despite being deliberately ambiguous as to its setting, The Infinity Doctors also seems to imply that he recognises his wife’s body and remembers her death from his Davison incarnation (that and Savar’s eyes to me really suggest Infinity Doctors is the McGann Doctor by the way), so the Doctor we are seeing is "our" one (and the Pre-Hartnell Doctor did not see Patience die, something this Doctor remembers).

Joyce and Penelope as the Doctors parents: Penelope is first seen as a Victorian time traveller in The Room With No Doors , where she is described as a slightly pump, redheaded woman. Joyce is first seen in Unnatural History, where he knows the Doctor (and clearly knows all about him, warning Griffin off), but their relationship is left undefined. We do, however, learn he has an assistant called Larna, apparently the same student the Doctor tutors in The Infinity Doctors . Joyce is Ulysses (they have the same physical description and Joyce is a none-too-subtle alias). We learn in Unnatural History that Joyce is married to Penelope. This is further tied into in The Gallifrey Chronicles with Marnal’s flashbacks. We see Ulysses along with Penelope, Larna (a Time Lady from the future) and Mr Saldimaar, a veteran of the First Time Wars, trying to make sure that Gallifrey is not destroyed before it’s supposed to be. Marnal threatens to expose Ulysses’ secrets (with a veiled reference to his son) and as a consequence is imprisoned in Victorian England with Ulysses’ mother in law. Larna incidentally implies that she is from after the attacks on Gallifrey by Faction Paradox and that the coming attacks happen in the lifetimes of their (Ulysses’ generation’s) children, suggesting that the Hartnell Doctor was reloomed immediately, not millions of years later.

hope that helps

#18 14 May 2008, 1:28 am scary man Re: the novel Doctors background Powell Estate Crew Quote: Originally Posted by Teatime Brutality Of course there's the problem that this leaves the Doctor utterly unconnected to the Other, but perhaps that isn't a problem. After all, I like the sly hint in The Book of the War that the Other's biodata didn’t simply reconstitute itself as one individual but hangin' on the corner rather expressed itself through the whole troublesome 'Deca Joined April 21, 2004 generation.' Last On: Today 3:58 pm I knew I'd read that theory somewhere, and I couldn't remember Posts Here: 995 where. Thanks!

Any chance you can remember whereabouts in The Book of the War ?

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#19 14 May 2008, 1:43 am

Teatime Brutality Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by scary man Any chance you can remember whereabouts in The Book of the War?

Joined December 6, Not sure under which entry, but it's in a very subtle little bit where 2007 the narrator's gone all unreliable (like when the Book confidently Last On: Today 3:15 tells us that House Lolita will never be of any importance). In this pm instance then the Book's speculating on why so many troublemakers all turn up in the same generation and says it's probably just that the Posts Here: 105 Breeding Engines (or whatever Looms are called over in Factionville, I forget) are getting old and starting to throw up anomalies.

For any reader who knows more than the Book's narrator about what's inside the Looms, it's just left hanging that there's another possibility why the Looms might now be churning out rebels.

#20 14 May 2008, 2:03 pm

Doktor Wer Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by sariel2004 Cologne The Infinity Doctors also seems to imply that he recognises his wife’s body and remembers her death from his Davison Joined April 19, 2005 incarnation ( that and Savar’s eyes to me really suggest Infinity Last On: Today 10:08 Doctors is the McGann Doctor by the way )... am Posts Here: 210 ... hope that helps

It certainly does, thanks. If anyone needs me, I'll be ploughing through the books looking for the references...

The description of the Doctor in The Infinity Doctors also kinda fits the 8th Doctor, with Paul McGann having had a haircut.

#21 14 May 2008, 4:55 pm

Howard A Treesong Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord All this stuff is what makes me love the book line, I really feel like I know more about the Doctor...but don't. If that makes sense, it's what makes the books so very rich in content. I have to admit it niggles me when every so often there's a thread in the New Series Wales section where someone is trying to de-canonise Lungbarrow or Joined April 18, 2004 something else in the book range.

Last On: Today 2:49 But my response is, pm Posts Here: 5,711 A) If you don't read or like the books why do you care what's Posts in OG Forum: written in them? Why do you care what my 'canon' is? 9,558 B) Canon is entirely personal. Why does my personal choice to

follow the books bother you to the point that you feel the need to start a thread trying to spoil something I enjoy. Something that you have no personal interest in discussing the finer points of other than trying to take it away from others?

C) Why do you think it's important that some types of Doctor Who fiction 'count' more than others, and why is your heirarchy of what counts better than anyone elses?

D) Why do you think that contradictions in Doctor Who only seem to matter when they suit your agenda to 'decanonise' something that only other people, and not even yourself, have an active interest in?

E) Lastly, some people seem to get 'annoyed' over the contents of books they've not even read but have only seen a synopsis of or got a general description from someone else. But still feel they know enough to begin an argument trying to force the view that it cannot be canon.

I'm sorry if that seems at all ranty, but it pees me off quite a bit especially as they seem fairly common threads particularly of late with the New Series. There's one in the Doctor's Daughter section where the Doctor's comments about family or his daughter are supposed to prove Lungbarrow isn't canon. Apart from the fact the arguments don't even make sense, to me there is no canon. Unlike Star Wars there is no George Lucas catagorising everything into tiers of canon for the fans. Doctor Who is just fiction to be enjoyed in many different forms. And I loathe the way some people try to undermine some fans enjoyment of, and steer others away from, the books and audios, simply it seems on the basis they don't personally don't like them so others shouldn't either. I am baffled by the public expression of their aversion shown towards areas of the fiction they have no interest in, but moreso by the need to go out of their way to insist they are in the right to do so, and others are somehow wrong. It's for these reasons I tend not to discuss the books outside the book section.

#22 15 May 2008, 1:38 am scary man Re: the novel Doctors background Powell Estate Crew Quote: Originally Posted by Teatime Brutality Not sure under which entry, but it's in a very subtle litt le bit where the narrator's gone all unreliable (like when the Book confidently tells us that House Lolita will never be of any importance). In this instance then the Book's speculating on why so many hangin' on the corner troublemakers all turn up in the same generation and says it's Joined April 21, 2004 probably just that the Breeding Engines (or whatever Looms are Last On: Today 3:58 called over in Factionville, I forget) are getting old and starting pm to throw up anomalies.

Posts Here: 995 For any reader who knows more than the Book's narrator about what's inside the Looms, it's just left hanging that there's another possibility why the Looms might now be churning out rebels.

It's a neat theory.

Much more interesting than just the Doctor being the sole avatar of the Other.

I'll have a dig through The Book of the War when I get a minute.

Quote: Originally Posted by Howard A Treesong All this stuff is what makes me love the book line, I really feel like I know more about the Doctor.…... It's for these reasons I tend not to discuss the books outside the book section.

I agree with you. It's baffling.

I just think some people must just enjoy having dull, circular arguments about nothing.

Everyone on this thread knows the book fans are the proper , hardcore fans, innit?

Oh, and I know it's petty, but did you, like me, feel a wave of smugness come over you when The Doctor's Daughter ended up being "born" as an adult, stepping out of a "loom"?

#23 15 May 2008, 12:50 pm

Melchy Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Joined April 23, 2004 we're not hardcore, we just seem to be far more easygoing and well Last On: Today 12:53 informed than the TV only lot, which makes engaging in discussions am here a lot more pleasant

Posts Here: 478 'Official Canon' n. whatever you want it to be.

'Official Cannon' n. a device used for sending anally retentive Doctor Who fans into orbit.

#24 15 May 2008, 2:43 pm The Jarra Wanderer Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Melchy we're not hardcore, we just seem to be far more easygoing and well informed than the TV only lot, which makes engaging in Dundee via Jarrow discussions here a lot more pleasant Joined August 12, 2004 Isn't that the truth... Last On: Today 3:39 pm Oh me lads, down the leagues they're gannin' Posts Here: 808 Passing West Brom along the Road Posts in OG Forum: Middlesbrough just stanning 918 All the mackems and tackems there, smiles but not one frown Oh how great it is to seeeeeeeee Newcastle going down

#25 15 May 2008, 9:25 pm scary man Re: the novel Doctors background Powell Estate Crew Quote: Originally Posted by Melchy we're not hardcore, we just seem to be far more easygoing and well informed than the TV only lot, which makes engaging in discussions here a lot more pleasant hangin' on the corner Sorry. I'm an ageing raver. When I say "hardcore", I mean it in a Joined April 21, 2004 nice way, much how you describe above Last On: Today 3:58 pm ___ Posts Here: 995 If one were to go back over the books and try and tease out as much backstory of the Doctor as possible what books would one need to re-read?

Lungbarrow, Cold Fusion, The Room With No Doors, The Gallifrey Chronicles, The Infinity Doctors, Unnatural History

Anything else?

#26 15 May 2008, 11:06 pm sariel2004 Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Cats Cradle: Times Crucible has a lot of ancient Gallifrey background stuff which is relevant. Divided Loyalties has a sizable flashback to the Doctor’s time at the Academy, as well as the souring of his relationship with the house of Lungbarrow and his expulsion from the Academy, it’s far from the best though.

Joined April 24, 2004 Last On: Today 1:10 am Posts Here: 136

#27 16 May 2008, 12:49 pm

Estall Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Andrew Kearley I'm also sure the implication is that "Other-ness" only comes to fruition in the seventh Doctor, and it's only the seventh Doctor Oxford who can be called the reincarnation of the other.

Joined April 21, 2004 I prefer to think that the Other's biodata lies within the Loom, and Last On: 28 May 2009 the Doctor picks it up during his "re-looming" into Hartnell. 10:42 am Posts Here: 548 I'd go with your points too. Posts in OG Forum: 1191 Quote:

Originally Posted by sariel2004 Ok let me see if I can help, doktor wer... hope that helps

Fantastic stuff here! I think that pretty much puts a lot of the 'bitty' information all together! Well done!

Quote: Originally Posted by Doktor Wer It certainly does, thanks. If anyone needs me, I'll be ploughing through the books looking for the references...

The description of the Doctor in The Infinity Doctors also kinda fits the 8th Doctor, with Paul McGann having had a haircut. Me too, I think I'll set up a mini reading project and go for it...

#28 17 May 2008, 11:09 pm

Voyager Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Andrew Kearley I'm also sure the implication is that "Other-ness" only comes to fruition in the seventh Doctor, and it's only the seventh Doctor Joined June 19, 2005 who can be called the reincarnation of the other. Last On: Yesterday 5:38 pm I agree with you on most of your other thinking but for me, the Doctor, in both his pre-Hartnell and Hartnell onwards lives is a Posts Here: 112 'reincarnation' of the Other, for want of a better word. He is a unique individual, whose shadowy, dark, but ultimately heroic life story is woven throughout the history of post-Pythic Gallifrey, from the foundation of the Time Lords alongside Rassilon and Omega right through to the end of the Great Time War - every so many thousand/ million years, he keeps on turning up out of the gene pool, like a bad penny .

First as the (imo/ speculation the originally human Other - though imo he may later have gained the ability to regenerate), then, a little later, the half-human pre-Hartnell life cycle and then the Hartnell onwards loomed lifecycle where he is full Time Lord (except obviously when he is the early eighth Doctor, where, due to events shown in the TV Movie and 'Unnatural History', where he is probably half human again for a bit ).

Having said that, ISTC that the Other, when described (vaguely) in 'Time's Crucible' and 'Lungbarrow', does (or could) look like Sylvester McCoy, which would be a nice symmetry with the idea that only the McCoy Doctor is the main 'reincarnation' of the Other, or at least, if the half human eighth Doctor is some kind of 'accidental reincarnation' of the pre-Hartnell Doctor, then there's no reason why the seventh couldn't somehow be some kind of partial Other throwback. Perhaps the McCoy Doctor's emergence (and his fairly unique motivations and career) were all pre-planned by the Other, was a means of the Other resolving 'loose ends' at the other end of his timeline.

As with so many things regarding the Doctor's pre-series life, these things are open to more than one interpretation. As it should be.

#29 21 May 2008, 5:36 pm

Ka Faraq Gatri Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Voyager

First as the (imo/ speculation the originally human Other - though Victoria, Australia imo he may later have gained the ability to regenerate), then, a Joined April 21, 2004 little later, the half-human pre-Hartnell life cycle and then the Hartnell onwards loomed lifecycle where he is full Time Lord Last On: Yesterday (except obviously when he is the early eighth Doctor, where, due 7:27 pm to events shown in the TV Movie and 'Unnatural History', where Posts Here: 1,814 he is probably half human again for a bit ). Posts in OG Forum: 3,273 .

Except in 'The Scarlet Empress' where it's implied that the Doctor just thinks that he's half human, but isn't.

"Because I'm talking to the bloody Daleks who couldn't exterminate their way out of a tomato." - Bernice Summerfield

#30 22 May 2008, 12:59 pm

Estall Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Voyager or at least, if the half human eighth Doctor is some kind of 'accidental reincarnation' of the pre-Hartnell Doctor... Oxford Joined April 21, 2004 Last On: 28 May 2009 Woah, woah, woah! What's this? 10:42 am Where did this idea come from? Posts Here: 548 Posts in OG Forum: 1191

#31 23 May 2008, 9:57 pm Voyager Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Estall Woah, woah, woah! What's this? Where did this idea come from? Joined June 19, 2005 Last On: Yesterday From the twisted corridors of my mind . 5:38 pm If, as we've been discussing and IMO, the pre-Hartnell Doctors were Posts Here: 112 most likely half-human, and the eighth Doctor, at least early in his life, is apparently half-human, then perhaps this is due to the unstable timelines whatsits revealed in 'Unnatural History' (which IIRC is what the book infers), making the eighth Doctor in effect some sort of 'accidental' reincarnation of the pre-Hartnells. Or not.

Of course, if he was, and there was a pre-Hartnell Doctor who looked like Paul McGann, then that would make the placing of 'The Infinity Doctors' even more ... interesting .

I'm not saying that's what I believe. It just occurred to me when reflecting on the idea in my post about the seventh Doctor possibly being a reincarnation of the Other. It may also help explain why the eighth Doctor starts gabbling on about his mum and dad out of the blue in the TV Movie, if the regeneration was something a little different from normal and more hidden memories were released as a result.

#32 27 May 2008, 8:50 pm

Estall Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord Quote: Originally Posted by Voyager From the twisted corridors of my mind .

Oxford If, as we've been discussing and IMO, the pre-Hartnell Doctors Joined April 21, 2004 were most likely half-human, and the eighth Doctor, at least early in his life, is apparently half-human, then perhaps this is due to Last On: 28 May 2009 the unstable timelines whatsits revealed in 'Unnatural History' 10:42 am (which IIRC is what the b ook infers), making the eighth Doctor in Posts Here: 548 effect some sort of 'accidental' reincarnation of the pre-Hartnells. Posts in OG Forum: Or not. 1191 Of course, if he was, and there was a pre -Hartnell Doctor who looked like Paul McGann, then that would make the placing of

'The Infinity Doctors' even more ... interesting .

I see, very intriguing!

#33 28 May 2008, 2:48 am sariel2004 Re: the novel Doctors background Time Lord I don't see the Eighth Doctor as a reincarnation of the pre-Hartnell Doctor personally (in fact, I think he is exactly the same person, in just the same way as he is the same as the Fifth Doctor, for example). However, I do think that the memories of his pre-loomed lives were deeply suppressed and the length of time he was dead caused him to recover some of those memories. I see that as Joined April 24, 2004 analogous to how near-death experiences are said to give mystic Last On: Today 1:10 insight (like Odin hanging from Yggrassil for 3 days in Norse am mythology, or even how in BSG Deanna Beers kept killing herself in order to learn about the final 5 Cylons). That’s why they don't Posts Here: 136 entirely make sense to him but he knows they are true. I think he finally gets ALL his memories when he gets them back from Compassion after The Gallifrey Chronicles.