Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 12718
Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 12718
1 Tuesday, 13 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone. May we take today's appearances,
10 please.
11 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, all. I'm Tom Hannis along with
12 Crispian Smith for the Office of the Prosecutor.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Your Honour. Slobodan Zecevic,
14 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
15 the Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin
17 Defence, Igor Pantelic.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And the Registrar -- sorry. The Usher
19 may escort the witness back to the stand if there is nothing --
20 MR. HANNIS: As the witness is coming in, Your Honour, I just
21 wanted to indicate -- to request your attention to a matter regarding
22 Ewa Tabeau. She's a Prosecution witness we hope to call as the last
23 witness before the break, and there's matters pending that -- that we
24 need a decision from you about whether we can use her new report, whether
25 she will testify as an expert, et cetera.
Tuesday, 13 July 2010 Case No. IT-08-91-T
Witness: Slobodan Markovic (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 12719
Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic (Continued)
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE HALL: Thanks for the reminder.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, Mr. Markovic. Before
5 Mr. Cvijetic resumes his cross-examination, I would remind you you're
6 still on your oath.
7 Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 WITNESS: SLOBODAN MARKOVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic: [Continued]
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Markovic, good morning.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Well, we can't away from this. We have to keep on going.
15 A. Certainly, I am here.
16 Q. Yesterday I showed you minutes from a government session of the
17 Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina, of 28 July 1992, and we saw
18 that the government discussed and supported the agreement on the
19 conditions and manner of prisoner exchanges.
20 Do you recall that?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the 22nd of July.
22 MR. CVIJETIC:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Following that, I showed you a -- an agreement
24 that I thought was the relevant one, agreement that was signed in Geneva
25 on the 23rd of May, 1992, and agreed upon by representatives of the
1 Serbian and the Muslim parties, or sides. However, you pointed out that
2 this could not have been the relevant agreement and that the government
3 probably, at its session, discussed and deliberated on another agreement,
4 and I did not show it to you yesterday because I misplaced it; it was in
5 the Prosecutor's binder yesterday and I couldn't pull it out immediately
6 so I would like to do it now.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull up P1318.26.
8 Q. Mr. Markovic, before you read this first agreement that we have
9 on the monitors, let me just say that the agreement that we are going to
10 discuss is attached to this -- to this contract.
11 Would you please take a look at this contract before I put
12 several questions to you.
13 Have you seen -- have you read through it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You see, this is a contract reached, concluded between two
16 representatives of two commissions, the Serbian commission and the Muslim
17 commission, but with the mediation of UNPROFOR representatives.
18 Can you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. However, if we look at the text of this agreement, would you
21 agree with me that this was agreement that actually related to one
22 particular exchange, an ad hoc, as it were, exchange, in a certain area,
23 because the agreement does not include some general -- general provisions
24 on the principles which would be applied throughout the territory, the
25 demarcation territory and so on.
1 So let me ask you: Do you know anything about this agreement and
2 can you shed some light on that?
3 A. This agreement, I've never actually seen it before. It is true
4 that it pertains to one particular exchange, a single exchange, and it's
5 probably an exchange somewhere around Ilidza. I assume that, because the
6 Serbian side, the representative whose side on their behalf was
7 Nenad Vanovac, and the stamp was not the commission stamp but, rather,
8 the Serbian Democratic Party of Ilidza stamp, as you can read for
9 yourself, the Municipal Board of the Serbian Democratic Party at Ilidza.
10 So probably the agreement and the list relate to the exchange in
11 Ilidza, around Ilidza, or somewhere in that general area. And for this
12 document, itself, I have never seen it before.
13 Q. Thank you. I have to admit that I've actually -- I did not note
14 what you've just told us about the stamp, but you did confirm that this
15 was a specific exchange that this document relates to?
16 A. Yes, absolutely. Because we see that the stamp reads Ilidza
17 or -- or Vojkovici, some of those areas.
18 Q. Mr. Markovic, do you agree that this issue, the issue of prisoner
19 exchanges in wartime, the free movement of civilians and security of
20 those individuals who are waiting to be exchanged, would you agree that
21 this is a major issue that has to be discussed and decided upon by the
22 highest representatives of the Serbian or Muslim nations specifically,
23 but that the international community should also participate in that type
24 of agreement to provide guarantees that it will be abided by and
25 implemented.
1 Would you agree with what I've just said?
2 JUDGE HALL: I assume, Mr. Cvijetic, that that was a question and
3 not a speech. I don't know what the witness can make of that.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will rephrase my
6 question.
7 Q. Mr. Markovic, do you consider that this problem that you've also
8 dealt with at the time in question should have been resolved and
9 discussed by the highest authorities and representatives of these
10 parties, as well as members of the international community?
11 A. I fully agree with what you've just said, and especially in
12 relation to the presence of the international community, because whenever
13 I arranged some exchanges, it was always done with the presence of the
14 UNPROFOR because they were there as a sort of judge and referee.
15 Q. This is the following page of the document, and we should have
16 the attachment to the agreement here, and this is something that we would
17 need to discuss now.
18 Mr. Markovic, I'm going give you some time again just to look at
19 the document and then we will comment on it.
20 Have you had the opportunity to look at the first page of the
21 document?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You can see in the introductory paragraph, the agreement is an
24 agreement that is concluded between the highest representatives of the
25 Serbian and the Muslim people, between, thus, Mr. Radovan Karadzic, on
1 behalf of the Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina and
2 Alija Izetbegovic and representatives of state commissions for the
3 exchange of prisoners, as it says at the top.
4 You will see, however, that the date is missing, so we will
5 remember this bit because when we finish this document -- with this
6 document, I will go back to discuss the point why there is no date here.
7 So let us just go through some of the provisions of this
8 agreement now.
9 You can see in item 1, that the subject of the agreement is
10 noted. This is something that you dealt with in your commission as well.
11 Isn't that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In item 2, it is said that the exchanges should be carried out
14 through the commissions that should be formed by both sides. Do you see
15 that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. In paragraph 3, the priorities are set about the unconditional
18 release of certain categories of persons, and what is meant here are
19 primarily civilians. Do you see that paragraph?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In paragraph 4, it is stated that the commissions should exchange
22 the lists of detained persons. And then towards the end, the principle
23 all for all that you mentioned is also referred to. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And just help us here with this principle. If you can just
1 confirm that this principle is supposed to guarantee that there will be
2 no individual trading and bargaining one for one and so on and so forth
3 but it will be an all-for-all exchange. I think you were explaining a
4 little bit about that yesterday. Is that how matters were?
5 A. I have to say that this principle all for all functioned sometime
6 at the very beginning of the war. However, afterwards, the principle was
7 not applied. For example, a high-ranking officer of the Serbian army
8 would be exchanged for 15 or 20 Muslim fighters, and they would be
9 requested by name, so the principle actually became meaningless as the
10 combat progressed.
11 Q. Yes, that is why I asked you. You will agree with me that the
12 principle was put in the agreement with justification. There was a
13 reason to put it in the agreement. Would you agree with that?
14 A. Yes, yes, I would. But I'm noting that the principle was applied
15 at the beginning of the war, for a month or two.
16 Q. Very well. We already said that.
17 Paragraph 5, you can see here that the agreement provides for the
18 encouragement of agreements at local levels. And I have to remind you,
19 you said that your Central Commission objectively could not cover the
20 whole territory, and you will agree that this agreement actually
21 acknowledges that. Would you agree?
22 A. Yes, I agree completely. Because physically it was impossible
23 for us to approach and to cover everything, because of the roads and
24 everything. However, the commissions were unable to provide us with the
25 lists of exchanged persons also because it was not possible to
1 communicate.
2 Q. All right. Item 6, we can just briefly say that the agreement is
3 also covering the exchange of dead bodies. So it is not only about the
4 exchange of people who are alive but also the exchange of bodies.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to paragraph 7,
6 which is on the following page, please.
7 Q. In paragraph 7, there is an agreement on the release of all
8 detained JNA soldiers. Do you see that?
9 And then item 8 refers to other priority categories, and these
10 would be journalists, medical science and culture workers, public
11 workers, priests, and so on and so forth.
12 Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you can see in paragraph 9 the agreement is reached on the
15 humane treatment of prisoners. And I think this principle is also noted
16 in the decision on your commission.
17 A. Not only do I remember it; I know it off by heart.
18 Q. What is interesting to me is paragraph 11, where the agreement
19 provides for the sides enabling each other to check on the living
20 conditions of the prisoners, guaranteeing mutual safety and return.
21 So let us try to interpret this as meaning that you as a
22 representative of the commission and your colleague, on the Muslim side,
23 could cross the line of separation wherever you had information that
24 there were prisoners and you had the right to inspect those facilities.
25 Do you interpret this provision in the same way, in the way that
1 I have just interpreted it?
2 A. According to the agreement reached with the Muslim side that is
3 how it should have been. However, this was not actually possible to
4 implement. Who among the Serbs could enter the notorious Viktor Bubanj
5 prison in the barracks of the same name or enter the central prison which
6 is located in central Sarajevo?
7 So this actually never happened on either side; I have to mention
8 that.
9 Q. The gist of my questions relating to this agreement actually is
10 aimed at establishing the reasons why this did not happen. So now we
11 will quickly move to item 14 where the parties would commit themselves to
12 prevent occurrences of unlawful arrests, to ban blackmail, and I think
13 that we will agree that this principle all for all would eliminate these
14 options from item 14. Would you agree?
15 A. Yes, to a large degree. Yes, of course, I agree entirely. And
16 the principle all for all has been eliminated here completely and I will
17 explain that with one detail.
18 For example, when a brother of one of the Serbs would be