tr José Israel Vargas

o ii to ootnit

The former minister, an advocate of nuclear enery and critic of corporatism, looks back on his career as a scientist and policy maker

Fabrício Marques Published in April 2011

osé Israel Vargas, 83, who was born in — My friends joke that to physicists, I’m a chemist, and to state, is not just a privileged witness to the develop- chemists, I’m a physicist. I think they mean I’m equally ignorant ment of Brazilian science in the twentieth century. in both areas. The field that most attracted my generation was As Minister of Science and Technology from 1992 nuclear and nuclear energy, where the biggest technical to 1998 – a position he held longer than anyone and scientific advances during and after the Second World War else has – he became one of the most influential had been made. had had the good fortune to have a gen- voices in science and technology policy in Brazil. eration that produced a series of great scientists at the USP. This He graduated from the Federal University of Minas Gerais line of scholarship came out of the brilliant Italian school led by (UFMG) in 1952 with a degree in chemistry but soon be- Enrico Fermi. At USP, and came involved with physics. He gained solid experience taught , Abraão de Moraes, Mário Schönberg, in physics at the University of São Paulo (USP) and the Paulus Aulus Pompeia, César Lattes and . I came into Aeronautical Institute of Technology (ITA) and received contact with this generation of scientists when I went to study a PhD in nuclear science from the Department of Physics chemistry at the Federal University of Minas Gerais in 1948. In & Chemistry at the University of Cambridge. He was one my second year, I transferred to USP, in Alameda Glete, where I of the formulators of Brazil’s nuclear energy policy at the stayed for almost two years. Like every young person at the time, beginning of the 1960s, an activity that was interrupted by I was a left winger, involved in student protests and the “The oil the military coup of 1964, which led to Vargas leaving the is ours” campaign, which was led mainly by the Communist country and living in exile in France for six and a half years. youth movement. I made friends with and got to know people While in France, he worked as a researcher at the French there who were to become important scientists. Atomic Energy Commission’s Center for Nuclear Studies in Grenoble. Vargas returned to his policy-making career n For example? in Brazil under Aureliano Chaves, then Governor of Minas — Ely Silva, Luís Hildebrando Pereira da Silva, Ernst and Gerais. In the Figueiredo administration, he became the Amélia Hamburger, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, José Secretary of Industrial Technology in the Ministry of In- Goldemberg, Victor Nussenzweig – with whom, as a matter dustry and Commerce. ’s presidency saw him of fact, I was imprisoned during the oil campaign. I went moving to the Ministry of Science and Technology, where back to Minas leaning towards physics. Although I continued he remained through Fernando Henrique Cardoso’s first studying chemistry, I became a high-school physics teacher, term in office. “Because I’m jinxed, I was always appointed and I taught physics in a university-entrance-exam prepara- during times of crisis,” says Vargas, who, three years ago, tory course in the School of Philosophy at UFMG. compiled a book, Science at a Time of Crisis, from some of his writings generated over the last thirty years. A defender n What was your stay at ITA like? of nuclear energy and critic of corporatism in Brazilian sci- — At the time, ITA was running a development course for ence, Vargas talked about his career in this interview with high-school physics teachers. It was an initiative of the CNPq Fabrício Marques. [National Council for Scientific and Technological Develop- ment] organized by Paulus Aulus Pompeia, who was one of the n You have a degree in chemistry, but you embarked on a most important figures in Occhialini and Wataghin’s group. career in physics. How did that transition happen? Pompeia had participated in the most remarkable achieve-

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006-011_entrevistaingles_Julho2011.indd 7 09.09.11 15:37:24 ments in physics in recent times, the passed the public-service exam and for- discovery of so-called penetrating show- mally became the full professor. I made a ers. That discovery was one of the first lot of efforts to get a hold of the necessary to demonstrate that the atomic nucleus t resources for doing scientific work; these is much more complex than had previ- efforts were very urgent. I subsequently ously been imagined. There were some nn established a strong relationship with twenty-odd students from all over Brazil and a Marcelo Damy and took part in numerous in that course. The prospects that nuclear working groups organized by the CNEN energy offered for the world’s economy a [National Nuclear Energy Commission], and for science were tremendous. It was which he presided over. I was appointed a natural that young people with scientific ad member of CNEN’s board, and, in that ca- inclinations would want to move into that pacity, I acted as his deputy on the Board area. The course was especially interest- ana ra of Governors of the International Atomic ing because Pompeia brought the leading Energy Agency [IAEA] in Vienna, where lights of Brazilian physics to lecture and n I was on various committees. Two of the give conferences. There were also two great dn more notable ones were the committee American physicists in Brazil at that time, that established the rules and safeguards Richard Feynman and David Bohm, the a a a for controlling nuclear activities via in- latter of whom was fleeing from McCa- spections and the one that was responsible rthyism. Abraão de Moraes, an important n for formulating the international stan- Brazilian physicist, suggested that Pompeia dards for nuclear data. recruit me at ITA. So although I had re- cently graduated in chemistry, I ended up n Why were you relieved of your duties in the physics department. the municipal college. Soon after that, the with the CNEN after the 1964 coup? Institute for Radioactive Research [IPR] — Naturally, they remembered that I had n What was the environment at ITA like? was founded in , and I was been a student agitator; the revolution — I was at ITA from 1952 until 1954. invited by Professor Francisco Magalhães had a long memory; like all revolutions. It was an extremely interesting period Gomes, its organizer, to do precisely the I was subjected to three police inquiries because ITA had recruited the very best work I wanted to do, nuclear research. and my laboratory was invaded by an people in Brazil: young scientists and en- army detachment. I was relieved of my gineers in various areas, but especially in n The next step was a PhD from the Uni- duties, supposedly at the request of the mechanical engineering, materials sci- versity of Cambridge. CNEN board; however, I decided not to ence, aeronautics and, of course, math- — Exactly. At that time, the first Latin leave Brazil until things had been clarified, ematics. It had hired a large number American course in nuclear chemistry was in order to avoid being tried in absentia. of scientists, including many from the being given in Chile, at the University of In 1964, I received invitations to go to Massachusetts Institute of Technology Concepción, sponsored by the University the United States, Argentina, the Neth- (MIT). There were some Germans from of Cambridge and by Unesco. I received erlands and France. I chose France, spe- Von Braun’s group, along with Belgian, a grant from the CNPq to attend the cifically Grenoble, but I maintained close French, Czech and Swiss researchers, who course; just two of us taking the course relations with the National Institute for began working on the project to develop were Brazilian. There I met Alfred Mad- Nuclear Science and Technology, which the first Brazilian airplane, the seed of dock, who suggested I should do a PhD was located in Saclay, near Paris. I went what would one day become Embraer. at Cambridge and offered to be my tutor. to Grenoble because one of my friends at ITA was a special place, because it offered I started in 1956. Cambridge University the International Atomic Energy Agency, accommodations, food, a small salary and had been the main center for the develop- Pierre Balligand, who had been the di- a minimal work schedule, which allowed ment of nuclear science. There were some rector for power reactors there, became people to attend the various courses at five or six Nobel prize winners there at director of the Center for Nuclear Stud- ITA. One of those was taught by Walther the same time I was. The lead researchers ies in Grenoble, along with Louis Néel, a Baltensperger, from the Zurich Polytech- were from the English nuclear-armament Nobel prize winner in physics. nic, who became a close friend. What’s program, and many had taken part in the more, I used to go to São Paulo once a Manhattan Project. A number of scientists n What kind of relationship did you week to attend David Bohm’s seminar at were lecturing there at the time, including maintain with Brazil during that time? USP, and I frequently stayed with Fernan- James Chadwick, who had discovered the — In 1969 or 1970, I was asked by the do Henrique Cardoso. Mário Schönberg neutron, and Otto Frisch, who had devel- CNEN to come to Brazil to suggest poli- lived in the same building, which was rea- oped the first model of nuclear fission. cies, presumably new ones. The chairman son enough for long conversations late of the committee was General Uriel Alvim; into the night. This experience encour- n What did you do when you came back he wanted to discuss whether or not to re- aged me increasingly in the direction of to Brazil? sume the famous thorium project that had physics. I left ITA because my father was — I went back to my old jobs at the In- been started at the IPR in Belo Horizonte. sick and went back to Belo Horizonte. stitute for Radioactive Research and at the This project had been initiated at a time That’s when an opportunity arose for me School of Philosophy [at UFMG], where when there was no clearly defined Brazil- to take the public-service entrance exam I was the acting professor of physical- ian nuclear policy. In that environment, a to be chair of the physics department at chemistry and advanced chemistry. I later group of young engineers, physicists and

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006-011_entrevistaingles_Julho2011.indd 8 09.09.11 15:37:24 chemists from Belo Horizonte had formu- lated the so-called thorium project, which aimed to build one type of reactor out of the various possible options, the so-called auto-generating or regenerating reactor, which would use a mixture of enriched uranium and thorium. The project lost support, and I became the black sheep of the program. I have never managed to prove it, but, because of something a well-informed friend let slip, I’m certain that our Nuclear Energy Committee was forbidden to have any relationship with me by a secret decree – apparently a com- mon occurrence in the ’64 regime.

n To what do you attribute this? was 12 years old. Remaining in France at modernizing aspect, as can be seen in the — My cohort [at CNEN], that of the that time would have meant staying there way it courted scientists. Damy administration, had always advo- permanently because it’s likely they would — The situation at that time was doubt- cated an independent nuclear program have gotten married there. So I came back ful. Although I had been appointed by using natural uranium. But the military in 1972. It was an important moment in Geisel, certain groups and institutions government signed an agreement with Brazilian science. In 1972, Finep [the Re- opposed me, perhaps because, with a the United States and acquired a ready- search and Projects Financing Agency] was view to their own careers, they saw me as made turnkey reactor fed with enriched headed by José Pelúcio Ferreira, a leader in a competitor. At the same time, Aureliano uranium, to which the contribution of promoting an extremely active and smart Chaves had been appointed Governor of Brazilian technology would be practi- set of scientific policies here that were sup- Minas Gerais State, and he knew me. He cally nil. We did not accept that policy. ported by ample financial resources coming invited me to organize the Department We had our independent position on from the BNDES [the Brazilian Develop- of Science and Technology in the state the Board of Governors of the IAEA. ment Bank] and then from Finep itself. I government. I told him that I couldn’t Remember that the certainty of a third didn’t know Pelúcio, but he invited me to accept because I didn’t know the situa- world war was then current doctrine in talk with him. He wanted me to act as a tion in which I would be operating suf- the Brazilian government. In the sub- type of consultant. I told him I was resistant ficiently well; I had been away for almost sequent Geisel government, there was to having any relationship with the military seven years. He said to me, “Do you want an agreement with Germany, in which government and said that I was not inter- time to reflect, to think about it, to gather I played an indirect part. The João Pi- ested in his invitation. As I was leaving, I information?” I accepted this suggestion nheiro Foundation in Belo Horizonte, asked who had suggested he contact me. and was appointed chairman of the João of which I was chairman under the Au- He answered, “Celso Furtado.” I had be- Pinheiro Foundation. It was at this time reliano Chaves government, formulated come friendly with Celso at Cambridge. I that Embrapa [the Brazilian Agricultural the Pronuclear Program to be adminis- said that this changed the whole picture; if Research Corporation] was created. tered by the CNPq, which aimed to train the suggestion came from Celso Furtado, the personnel who would be needed to it was because it deserved consideration. n What were the discussions like that led implement the nuclear agreement with “So, what are we going to do?” he asked me. to the creation of Embrapa? Germany. Oscar Sala, Goldemberg and My proposal was to focus on strategic ma- — I was against the project as it was origi- I, who were wary about the agreement, terials, like nickel, zinc and niobium. Nio- nally drawn up, until the plan for develop- were invited to visit the German nuclear bium is important because we have 90% ing human resources was presented. The facilities. I thought then, and I still think of the world’s reserves of it whereas we plan, designed by Alysson Paulinelli, the now, that the nuclear program should be don’t have nickel; our nonferrous metals Minister of Agriculture, was to send 800 an instrument for modernizing Brazil. are all very altered by tropical storms, so young Brazilians to get PhDs at the best I considered that agreement to have its autonomous technology is required. Pelú- foreign universities, particularly Wiscon- positive side. For a long time the nuclear cio and the Planning minister João Paulo sin, Purdue, Cornell and other centers program had been nothing more than dos Reis Velloso brought about a major with international reputations. That’s an American reactor, Angra 1. We could reform of the Brazilian science-and-tech- when I said I was in favor of the project. I learn nothing from that reactor about nology system under the Geisel govern- knew that of those 800, 10% would have technology – except, to be fair, the tech- ment. To my surprise, I was named a mem- the competence to be able to understand nology of safety, management and opera- ber of the plenary body of the new Na- the advances that had been made in mo- tions. The first reactor included in the tional Research Council, a presidential lecular genetics and would thereby be nuclear agreement with Germany was commission that coordinated the country’s able to reorient the company’s programs Angra 2, which I supported in the end. research and development activities. But at in that strategic sector. I remember this the same time, they would not issue me a issue because it shows that there’s no se- n Tell us about your return to Brazil. passport so I could leave the country. cret to finding the path to progress. The — The time arrived when I had to decide. sequence of policies that led to Embraer I had four daughters, the oldest of whom n The military government also had a and Embrapa is an example of such a suc-

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006-011_entrevistaingles_Julho2011.indd 9 09.09.11 15:37:29 tution of 1988: the unified-labor-policy regime, which made the salaries of pro- fessors at UFRJ, UFMG and Unifesp the same. It also established that the professors at those institutions had the same duties and would receive the same remuneration as the professors at any new universities, such as those the Lula government started founding left, right and center. In addi- tion, there was a provision that, in practice, impeded the hiring of foreign scientists. It took four years of struggle to eliminate that impediment from the Constitution. It took a long time, and even after it had been repealed, the university cliques and the unified-labor-policy regime still kept the country’s scholarly communities from being refreshed by people involved in re- search in interdisciplinary areas.

n What is your assessment of the recent changes in legislation on innovation? cess: recruitment and highly competent are in Brazilian society. They still don’t — There are differences of opinion about training, management flexibility and inde- form part of our system of values. whether it was Louis XV or Madame Pom- pendence from official bureaucracy. We’ve padour who was the author of the famous somewhat forgotten today that science is n How were you appointed to head the phrase “Après moi, le déluge” (“After me, the work of individuals. The people who Ministry? the flood”). In Brazil, it’s the opposite; it’s produce good science are good scientists, — President Collor was impeached and “Before me, the flood.” All that had been and the people who produce great science Itamar, the new president, invited me to done before was abandoned. We had two are great scientists. What is the role of the the position. I told him that I’d been a extremely important laws that incentiv- government, politics or management? It is little disillusioned with my position as ized the participation of industry in the to create conditions under which quality Secretary of Industrial Technology in development of science and technology: people can produce quality science. The the Figueiredo government. Itamar said, Law 8,248, the IT law, and Law 8,661, second principle is that, unlike technology, “Oh, but I need you to help me carry the which allowed companies to deduct up which can be local and linked to particular burden! I’m trying to form a government to 8% from their income-tax bill if they natural conditions and natural resources, of national unity.” Because I am jinxed, I invested that money in science and tech- science is universal. There’s no such thing arrived in the midst of a crisis, but I was nology. Law 8,248 was very generous; it as Brazilian science; there’s just science. the Minister of Science and Technology, applied to revenue in the IT sector. Both and I lasted longer than anyone in that were altered. One of the reasons for lack of n You were opposed to the creation of the position. Itamar gave me a lot of support. success in building relationships between MCT [Ministry of Science and Techno- The things I managed to accomplish in industry and universities and entities that logy].Why? the beginning were largely the result of the promote research is that industry wants — I was always against it because the privatization of the Companhia Siderúr- economically important developments, Ministry has to compete with other cabi- gica Nacional [National Steel Company]. those that will generate income, to be pro- net-level departments that are obviously The proceeds allowed us to continue a tected by secrecy. A company that wants more important to politicians, who almost large part of the work that had previously to develop a new device will not be per- always take a short-term view. So the Min- been put on hold for lack of funds. suaded to submit its idea to a decision- istry of Science and Technology is always making bureaucracy made up of scientists treated as being a second- or third-level n For example? at Finep and the CNPq. Nor will it agree to player. In the Reis Velloso shuffle, Pelúcio — I didn’t go there to invent the wheel; I submit the idea to its peers because they put science in the view of the President worked from the assumption that my pre- are potential competitors. The solution of the Republic, thereby guaranteeing it decessors were neither imbeciles nor ma- is to award the incentive afterwards. A priority and a budget. That’s what mat- levolent, but that they were people whose company declares that it’s going to invest ters. Why was the Ministry created? For choices represented the opportunities – or X in science and technology; it invests it, political reasons, Dr. Ulysses Guimarães lack of opportunities – at a given time to entering into an agreement with a univer- wanted Renato Archer to be appointed carry through on certain projects and initi- sity and doing what it wants with secrecy Minister of Foreign Affairs, but Tancredo ate certain others. I spent my time finish- clauses. When the project is finished, the had a commitment to Olavo Setúbal. So ing work that had already been started. company shows what it has done to the the Ministry of Science and Technology Many of the initiatives, either from the government, which can either award the was created for Archer, who was, in fact, a military regime or subsequent administra- incentive or not. It seems trivial, doesn’t it? good minister. That shows how vulnerable tions, came to absolutely nothing because It’s essential. But because it runs counter and unimportant science and technology of a disastrous decision under the Consti- to the desires of the scientific community,

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006-011_entrevistaingles_Julho2011.indd 10 09.09.11 15:37:35 which wants to have the decision-making spending was 6%; by the time I left, it had power, a tension is engendered between reached 30%. When Sérgio Rezende left the production sector and academia. One the ministry in 2010, it was at 34%. We of the changes that occurred with this law t n and tripled the number of PhDs from 1,000 to was to give a greater role to the decision- 3,000, and the last administration tripled making bodies. That was a mistake. n it again, to 10,000. In relative terms, the volume of funds has increased very little; n What is the future of the Brazilian ener- a n d in absolute terms, it has grown with the gy matrix going to look like? a GDP. When I left the Ministry, around — First, hydroelectric power. Everybody’s 1% or 1.1% of the GDP was being spent talking about megaplants, but when you da on science and technology; now it’s 1.3%. look at the hydroelectric potential of Bra- The GDP has increased, but the relative zil, generally speaking, all of the water that a a ad investment has changed almost not at has a potential production of less than all. The licensed-patents indicator is still 20 megawatts is ignored. But miniplants a a poor; 90% of patents are registered by have immense potential. I think we need nonresidents. National scientific produc- nuclear energy to replace the generation n a tion has increased; the number frequently that today comes from gas, coal and petro- cited is 19,000 annual publications. But leum, which produce greenhouses gases. there has been a change in the counting a method; the current rubric is broader n Nuclear energy lost a bit of ground in than the previous one used by the ISI. the 1980s because of safety issues, which nad might be coming to the fore again after the n The number of Brazilian journals in the radioactive leaks caused by the earthquake ISI journal database has gone from a few in Japan. Is there a mature technology that dozen to more than one hundred. will allow us to substitute nuclear power Agency – which were approved with Bra- — The number naturally increased when for these other means of generation and zil’s vote. This is also despite the warning is- the basis for inclusion changed. In other truly fulfill all of Brazil’s needs? sued years ago by the scientific community. words, there was not really such a signifi- — No. There’s very little chance of the An irrefutable example: The accident in cant increase. This question leads me back country resuming activities in that area Goiânia [1987] led to a bill that would cor- to the difficulties I faced – and to some of because the specialists here are now old and rect this anomaly, but it’s still on the back my achievements. One of them was the because there are no incentives to encour- burner in the House of Representatives creation of the CPTEC [the Center for age new people to specialize in it. Over 30 today. This inertia is the result of corpo- Weather Forecast and Climate Studies at years ago, during the Geisel presidency, a ratist pressure arising from the utilitarian Inpe], thanks to which Brazil has begun Pronuclear Program was created. When it attitudes of the CNEN. I have no doubt to have its first class meteorological fore- was active, more than 600 people – engi- that nuclear energy will be fundamental to casts. The José Pelúcio Ferreira National neers, geologists, chemists and physicists – filling the world’s energy needs. Naturally, Scientific Computing Laboratory, which were sent abroad to undertake specialized what happened in Japan will hold up the previously operated in Praia Vermelha in studies, mainly in Germany. These people launch of new projects, perhaps for a long Rio, has been set up on a new campus in have grown old and retired. The only ini- time. There has recently been talk of our Petrópolis. The National Light Synchro- tiative that has survived is the remains of alleged wind potential. In France, which tron Laboratory also began operations un- the so-called parallel program, now being generates almost 80% of the energy it con- der the Fernando Henrique government, directed by Admiral Otto Pinheiro, which sumes with its nuclear power stations, it is financed with funds that partly came from is a great success. Thanks to this program, estimated that wind power from marine the privatization of the CSN during the Brazil dominates the technology for the iso- generators is four times more expensive. Itamar presidency. As to so-called sector topic enrichment of uranium. We have a There’s more potential in biomass, par- funds, in my administration, we created a valuable currency for exchange in this area. ticularly sugarcane bagasse, whether it is royalties fund that came from the revenue So even though we don’t have the trained burned directly or used as raw material in from oil concessions. It was earmarked for personnel, it would be possible to revive the facilities that generate energy through the science and technology, thanks to a pro- sector through international cooperation. enzymatic hydrolysis of pulp. posal from then Senator Eliseu Resende, who reestablished the Government’s oil n And the safety issue? n Since you left the Ministry, some of the monopoly. We created the Brazilian Space — We have to adopt independent and scientific-production indicators have been Agency, and two satellites were built at Inpe, efficient radiation-protection regulatory steadily growing. How would you assess in addition to two others that were built in systems that will guarantee the safety of the what has happened in these last few years? collaboration with the Chinese. The sector existing power stations and of any future — Unfortunately, the scientific and tech- has benefited from the continuation of the ones. What has so far been done in this area nological system has been imbued with Scientific and Technological Development doesn’t seem sufficient to me. Brazil does the official ideological view that Brazil be- Program [PADCT] with the World Bank not separate licensing from the supervi- gan eight years ago. When I arrived at the and from the funding of Centers for Ex- sion of nuclear-related activities, so it is not Ministry, despite the difficulties I faced, cellence, which have become important complying with the 2003 recommenda- the indispensable participation of the pri- platforms for Brazil’s participation in the tions of the International Atomic Energy vate sector in the science and technology world’s scientific community. n

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