Thursday Volume 531 11 August 2011 No. 192

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 11 August 2011

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In recent days, individual police officers have shown House of Commons incredible bravery and have worked in some cases around the clock without a break, and they deserve our support Thursday 11 August 2011 and our thanks. But what became increasingly clear earlier this week was that there were simply far too few police deployed on to our streets, and the tactics that The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock, notice they were using were not working. Police chiefs have having been given by Mr Speaker (Standing Order been frank with me about why this happened. Initially, No. 13.) the police treated the situation too much as a public order issue, rather than essentially one of crime. The PRAYERS truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge, with different people doing the same [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] thing—basically, looting—in different places but all at the same time. To respond to this situation, we are Public Disorder acting decisively to restore order on our streets, to support the victims of this terrible violence and to look 11.35 am at the deeper problems that led such a hard core of The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): With young people to decide to carry out such appalling permission, I would like to make a statement. First, let criminality. Let me take each in turn. me thank you, Mr Speaker and right hon. and hon. First, restoring order. Following the meetings of Members for returning. When there are important events Cobra that I chaired on Tuesday and Wednesday, and in our country, it is right that Parliament is recalled and again this morning, we have taken decisive action to that we show a united front. I am grateful to the Leader help ensure more robust and more effective policing. of the Opposition for the constructive approach he has As a result of decisions made by Metropolitan police taken over the past few days. I have tried to speak with Commissioner Tim Godwin and other police chiefs up many of the Members whose constituencies have been and down the country, there are now more police on affected, and I would like to pay particular tribute to the streets, more people being arrested, and more the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) for criminals being prosecuted. The Metropolitan police his powerful words and actions over recent days. increased the number deployed on the streets of What we have seen on the streets of London and in London from 6,000 to almost 16,000 officers, and this other cities across our country is completely unacceptable, number will remain throughout the weekend. We have and I am sure that the whole House will join me in also seen large increases in deployments of officers in condemning it. Keeping people safe is the first duty of other affected areas. Leave in affected forces has been Government. The whole country has been shocked by cancelled, and police officers have been bussed from the most appalling scenes of people looting, violence, forces across the country to areas of greatest need. vandalising and thieving. It is criminality, pure and Many businesses have quite rightly released special simple—and there is absolutely no excuse for it. We constables to help, and they performed magnificently have seen houses, offices and shops raided and torched, as well. police officers assaulted and fire crews attacked as they More than 1,200 people have now been arrested try to put out fires. We have seen people robbing others across the country. We are making technology work for while they lie injured and bleeding in the street, and us, by capturing the images of the perpetrators on even three innocent people deliberately run over and CCTV, so even if they have not yet been arrested their killed in Birmingham. We will not put up with this in faces are known and they will not escape the law. As I our country. We will not allow a culture of fear to exist said yesterday, no phoney human rights concerns about on our streets, and we will do whatever it takes to publishing these photographs will get in the way of restore law and order and to rebuild our communities. bringing these criminals to justice. Anyone charged First, we must be clear about the sequence of events. with violent disorder and other serious offences should A week ago today, a 29-year-old man named Mark expect to be remanded in custody, not let back on the Duggan was shot dead by the police in Tottenham. streets; and anyone convicted should expect to go to jail. Clearly, there are questions that must be answered, and Courts in London, Manchester and the west midlands I can assure the House that this is being investigated have been sitting through the night, and will do so for as thoroughly and independently by the Independent Police long as is necessary. Magistrates courts have proved Complaints Commission. We must get to the bottom of effective in ensuring swift justice. The Crown courts are exactly what happened, and we will. now starting to deal with the most serious cases. We are Initially, there were some peaceful demonstrations keeping under constant review whether the courts have following Mark Duggan’s death and understandably the sentencing powers they need, and we will act if and quite appropriately the police were cautious about necessary. how they dealt with them. However, this was then used As a result of the robust and uncompromising measures as an excuse by opportunist thugs in gangs, first in that have been taken, good progress is being made in Tottenham itself, then across London and in other restoring order to the streets of London and other cities cities. It is completely wrong to say there is any justifiable around our country. As I have made clear, nothing causal link. It is simply preposterous for anyone to should be off the table. Every contingency should be suggest that people looting in Tottenham at the weekend, looked at. The police are already authorised to use still less three days later in Salford, were in any way baton rounds. As I said yesterday, while they would not doing so because of the death of Mark Duggan. Young be appropriate now, we do have in place contingency people stealing flat-screen televisions and burning shops— plans for water cannon to be available at 24 hours’ that was not about politics or protest, it was about theft. notice. 1053 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1054

[The Prime Minister] To minimise the costs facing businesses, the Government will enable local authorities to grant business rate relief, Some people have raised the issue of the Army. The by funding at least three quarters of their costs. We will acting Commissioner of the Metropolitan police said to defer tax payments for businesses in greatest need, me that he would be the last man left in Scotland Yard through Time to Pay and other practical support. And with all his management team out on the streets before for houses and businesses that have been the most badly he asked for Army support. That is the right attitude damaged, we have instructed the valuation office to and one I share, but it is the Government’s responsibility immediately stop liability for council tax and business to make sure that every future contingency is looked at, rates. including whether there are tasks that the Army could A specific point was raised with me in Wolverhampton undertake that might free up more police for the front line. yesterday—that planning regulations make it difficult Everyone watching these horrific actions will be struck for shops to put up protective shutters. We will weed out by how they were organised via social media. Free flow unnecessary planning regulations to ensure that businesses of information can be used for good, but it can also be can get back on their feet and feel secure as quickly as used for ill, so we are working with the police, the possible. intelligence services and industry to look at whether it On supporting local communities, I can confirm that would be right to stop people communicating via these the Bellwin scheme to support local authorities will be websites and services when we know they are plotting operational. However, to ensure that urgent funding is violence, disorder and criminality. immediately available, we are today establishing a new I have also asked the police whether they need any £10 million recovery scheme to provide additional support other new powers. Specifically on facemasks, currently to councils in making areas safe, clean and clear again. they can only ask for them to be removed in a specific The Government will also meet the immediate costs of geographical location and for a limited time. I can emergency accommodation for families made homeless announce today that we are going to give the police the by the disturbances. The Secretaries of States for discretion to require the removal of face coverings Communities and Local Government and for Business, under any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion Innovation and Skills have made available to the House that they are related to criminal activity. On dealing details of all those schemes today. Of course, the situation with crowds, we are also looking at the use of existing continues to evolve, and we will keep any additional dispersal powers and whether any wider power of curfew support under close review. is necessary. Finally, let me turn to the deeper problem. Responsibility Whenever the police face a new threat, they must for crime always lies with the criminal. These people have the freedom and the confidence to change tactics were all volunteers; they did not have to do what they as necessary. This Government will always make sure did, and they must suffer the consequences. But crime they have the backing and political support to do so. has a context, and we must not shy away from it. I have The fight back has well and truly begun, but there will said before that there is a major problem in our society be no complacency. We will not stop until this mindless with children growing up not knowing the difference violence and thuggery is defeated and law and order is between right and wrong. This is not about poverty; it is fully restored on all our streets. about culture—a culture that glorifies violence, shows Let me turn to the innocent victims. No one will disrespect to authority and says everything about rights forget the images of the woman jumping from a burning but nothing about responsibilities. building, or of the furniture shop that had survived the In too many cases, the parents of these children—if blitz but has now tragically been burnt to the ground; they are still around—do not care where their children and everyone will have been impressed by the incredibly are or who they are with, let alone what they are doing. brave words of Tariq Jahan, a father in Birmingham The potential consequences of neglect and immorality whose son was so brutally and tragically run over and on this scale have been clear for too long, without killed. Shops, businesses and homes—too many have enough action being taken. As I said yesterday, there is been vandalised or destroyed and I give the people no one step that can be taken, but we need a benefit affected this promise. We will help you repair the damage, system that rewards work and is on the side of families. get your businesses back up and running and support We need more discipline in our schools; we need action your communities. to deal with the most disruptive families; and we need a Let me take each in turn. On repairing the damage, I criminal justice system that scores a clear, heavy line confirm that any individual, home owner or business between right and wrong—in short, all the action that is that has suffered damage to or loss of their buildings or necessary to help mend our broken society. property as a result of rioting can seek compensation At the heart of all the violence sits the issue of the under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886, even if uninsured. street gangs. Territorial, hierarchical and incredibly violent, The Government will ensure the police have the funds they are mostly composed of young boys, mainly from they need to meet the cost of any legitimate claims, and dysfunctional homes. They earn money through crime, whereas normally claims must be received within 14 days, particularly drugs, and are bound together by an imposed we will extend the period to 42 days. The Association of loyalty to an authoritarian gang leader. They have British Insurers has said it expects the industry to be blighted life on their estates, with gang-on-gang murders paying out in excess of £200 million, and has assured us and unprovoked attacks on innocent bystanders. that claims will be dealt with as quickly and constructively In the past few days, there is some evidence that they as possible. have been behind the co-ordination of the attacks on On supporting business, we are today setting up a the police and the looting that has followed. I want us to new £20 million high street support scheme to help use the record of success against gangs from cities such affected businesses get back up and running quickly. as Boston in the USA and, indeed, from the Strathclyde 1055 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1056 police in Scotland who have engaged the police, the shoulder to shoulder, united against the vandalism and voluntary sector and local government. I want this to be violence we have seen on our streets. The victims are the a national priority. innocent people who live in many of our cities, who We have already introduced gang injunctions, and I have seen their homes and businesses destroyed, their can announce today that we will use them across the communities damaged and their confidence about their whole country for children and for adults. There are own safety undermined. There can be no excuses, no also further sanctions available beyond the criminal justification. This behaviour has disgusted us all. It justice system. Local authorities and landlords already cannot be allowed to stand; we will not allow it to have tough powers to evict the perpetrators from social stand. housing. Some local authorities are already doing this. I I join the Prime Minister in mourning the loss of life, want to see others follow their lead, and we will consider including those killed in London and Birmingham. Our whether these powers need to be strengthened further. thoughts are with the families and friends of those who I have asked the Home Secretary to work with the have died—with people such as Tariq Jahan. We stand Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other with him because he is the true face of Britain—the Cabinet colleagues on a cross-government programme Britain of which we are all proud. of action to deal with this gang culture and to report to I also thank our brave policemen and women throughout Parliament in October. this country for the work they have been doing on our behalf, and all our emergency services. We salute them I believe that we should be looking beyond our shores for their courage, their dedication and their willingness—yet to learn the lessons from others who have faced similar again—to put themselves in harm’s way for all of us problems. That is why I will be discussing how we can and all our communities. Thanks to them, a degree of go further in getting to grips with gangs with people order has been re-established on our streets, but all of such as Bill Bratton, former commissioner of police in us in all parts of the House know what the public want New York and Los Angeles. Of course, the problem is and what they are entitled to: a return to normality, as not just gangs; there were people who saw shop windows well as order. smashed and who thought that it would be okay just to go in and steal. It is not okay, and these people, too, will Normality does not mean shops having to shut at have to face the full consequences of their actions. 3 pm because they fear looting. Normality does not mean rushing home because you are scared to be on the In the past few days, we have seen a range of emotions streets. Normality does not mean being fearful in your sweep this country: anger, fear, frustration, despair, own home. People want to have back the most fundamental sadness and, finally, a determined resolve that we will of all liberties: the ability to go about their business and not let a violent few beat us. We saw that resolve in the lead their lives with security and without fear. They people who gathered in Clapham, Manchester and have a right to expect that and we have a responsibility Wolverhampton with brooms to clean up our streets. to make it happen. To do that, Parliament needs to do We saw it in those who patrolled the roads in Enfield its job. We need to unite against the violence and to be through the night to deter rioters. We saw it in the the place where we examine and debate frankly all the hundreds of people who stood guard outside the Southall issues involved—how we have got here, what it says temple, protecting it from vandalism. This is a time for about Britain and what the response should be. our country to pull together. On policing, I agree with the Prime Minister that this To the law-abiding people who play by the rules and is a job for the police, but will he say what functions he who are the overwhelming majority in this country, I thinks the Army might be able to perform to relieve say, “The fight back has begun. We will protect you. If pressure on the police? Will he confirm that the significant you’ve had your livelihood and property damaged, we additional operational costs that the police now face will compensate you. We are on your side.” To the will be funded from the Treasury reserve and so not lawless minority, the criminals who have taken what place extra pressure on already stretched budgets? Will they can get, I say: we will track you down, we will find he also confirm that the increased presence on our you, we will charge you, we will punish you. You will streets, which he said would remain in place to the pay for what you have done. weekend, will remain beyond the weekend, until the We need to show the world, which has looked on, police can be confident that the trouble will not recur? frankly, appalled, that the perpetrators of the violence The events of the past few days have been a stark we have seen on our streets are not in any way representative reminder to us all that police on our streets make our of our country, or of our young people. We need to communities safer and make the public feel safer. Given show them that we will address our broken society and the absolute priority the public attach to a visible and restore a sense of stronger morality and responsibility active police presence, does the Prime Minister understand in every town, in every street and in every estate. A year why they will think it is not right if he goes ahead with away from the Olympics, we need to show the world the the cuts to police numbers he has planned? Will he now Britain that does not destroy, but that builds; that does think again about that policy? not give up, but stands up; that does not look back, but On criminal justice, the public are clear about wanting always looks forward. I commend this statement to the swift, effective and tough action to send a message House. about the penalties and punishment that follow from the violence that has occurred. We must see swift progress Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I thank from charge to trial in these cases. Can the Prime the Prime Minister for his statement and for his decision Minister confirm that there is the capacity in the courts to suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that Parliament be and among our prosecutors to deal with cases swiftly, recalled. Whatever we disagree on week by week, month not just for first appearance, but throughout the trial by month, today as a House of Commons we stand process, including when people get to trial? It is right 1057 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1058

[Edward Miliband] Minister is right. We need a sustained effort to tackle the gangs in our cities—something we knew about that the Crown Prosecution Service is taking into account before these riots. In the consideration that the Prime the aggravating circumstances within which the horrendous Minister gives to how we tackle gang culture, will he criminal acts that we have seen took place in recent look urgently at the YouthJustice Board report published days. Does the Prime Minister agree that magistrates last June, which had a series of recommendations about and judges need to have those circumstances at the what the Government should be doing to tackle gang front of their mind so that those found guilty of such culture? disgraceful behaviour receive the tough sentences that Of course, as we look at the solutions we need, they deserve and the public expect? As the Prime Minister questions of hope and aspiration are relevant—the said, we have also been reminded about the importance provision of opportunities to get on in life that do not of CCTV in catching those responsible, so will he involve illegality and wrongdoing. When we talk about undertake to look again at his proposals on CCTV to be responsibility, we must not forget ours, not to the tiny absolutely sure that they in no way hinder bringing minority who did the violence, but to the vast majority criminals to justice? of law-abiding young people. They are a generation—this Thirdly, we need all our cities back on their feet and is not about any one Government—worried about their operating as normal. That work began—I pay tribute to prospects and we cannot afford to fail them. We cannot the heroism of the thousands of volunteers who reclaimed afford to have the next generation believe that they are our streets and showed the true spirit of those cities and going to do worse than the last. They should be able to our country. I welcome what the Prime Minister said do better. That is the promise of Britain that they have a and all the different elements of help that he announced. right to expect. Can he reassure us that the help that is provided will In conclusion, successful societies are built on an meet the need, and that there will not be an arbitrary ethic of hard work, compassion, solidarity and looking cap on the amount that he announced if it turns out after each other. Ours must be one society. We all bear a that further resources are required? Can he assure us share of responsibility for what happens within it. It is that these funds will flow straight away so that people right that we came back to debate these issues. It is right can get on with rebuilding their lives and communities? that public order must be paramount, but it is also Fourthly, on the deeper lessons that we need to learn, imperative that even after order and normality are the Prime Minister said in 2006: restored we do not ignore the lessons that we must learn. We cannot afford to move on and forget. To all “Understanding the background, the reasons, the causes. It doesn’t mean excusing crime but it will help us tackle it.” the people who have been in fear this week, to those who have lost loved ones, homes and businesses, we owe To seek to explain is not to seek to excuse. Of course a duty to ensure that there is no repeat of what we have these are acts of individual criminality, but we all have a seen. That is our responsibility to the victims and to the duty to ask ourselves why there are people who feel they country, and the Opposition will play our part in making have nothing to lose and everything to gain from wanton it happen. vandalism and looting. We cannot afford to let this pass and calm the situation down, only to find ourselves in The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman the same position again in the future. for what he has said today, but also for what he has said These issues cannot be laid at the door of a single in recent days, and, if I may say so, the way in which he cause or a single Government. The causes are complex. has said it. He made a number of points. Simplistic solutions will not provide the answer. We can First, the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to tackle the solutions only by hearing from our communities. praise the emergency services and the work they have What the decent people I met on the streets of London done. It is particularly remarkable that in spite of the and Manchester told me and will tell the Prime Minister fact that fires have been started in many cities across our is that they want their voice to be heard. They want us country, there have been no casualties from those fires. to go out and listen to them in thinking about the That speaks volumes about the professionalism and solutions that are necessary. Before any of us say we brilliance of our firefighters nationwide. know all the answers or have simple solutions, we The right hon. Gentleman rightly says that it is should all do so. important that as soon as possible we get our high Will the Prime Minister explain how those in areas streets, cities and towns back to a real sense of normality. affected will have their voice heard as the Government That has to start with the increased police presence so seek to find solutions to the issues that we have seen? that people feel the confidence to go out and enjoy their Does the Prime Minister agree that there must be a full towns and cities, and I believe that that will happen, so independent commission of inquiry swiftly looking at that our cities become the great and bustling places that what has happened in recent days and what lessons we we want them to be. need to learn—not an inquiry sitting in Whitehall hearing The right hon. Gentleman asked about the police, the evidence from academic experts, but reaching out and courts, communities and the deeper lessons, so let me listening to those affected, the decent law-abiding majority just say a word about each. I chose my words on the affected by these terrible events? They deserve and need Army carefully. None of us wants to see a break away to be heard. from the great British model of policing where the We need to look at and act on all the issues that public are the police and the police are the public, but matter—the responsibility we need from top to bottom Governments have a responsibility to try to look ahead in our society, including parental responsibility; an end at contingencies and potential problems, and to start to a take-what-you-can culture that needs to change asking about potential problems and difficulties in advance. from the benefits office to the board room. The Prime That is exactly what Cobra has done—for instance, by 1059 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1060 simply asking whether there are tasks, such as some sides of the House, who are deeply in touch with their simple guarding tasks, that could be done that would communities, their police forces and police chiefs, one free up police for more front-line duties. This is not for of the first things we can do in this House is properly today, or even for tomorrow; it is just so that there are bring to bear all the information we are hearing from contingency plans in case they become necessary. our communities, and I understand that the Home The right hon. Gentleman asked about operational Affairs Select Committee is going to hold an inquiry. I costs. Of course, the Treasury reserve is being used. He think that we should ask a parliamentary inquiry to do asked about policing numbers beyond the weekend. this work first. I thank him for the general tone of what Deployment must be an issue and a matter for police he said and hope that we can keep up this cross-party chiefs. They will want to assess the intelligence and the working as we deal with this very difficult problem. situation before making those decisions, but they should feel free to deploy as many police as they need for as Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Why long as they need. What matters most of all, more than have our police been dispersing these hoods so that they anything else, is restoring order on our streets. can riot in other vicinities, instead of rounding them The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of police up? Does the Prime Minister remember that in 1971, at budgets, and I am sure that this will be debated. Let me the peak of the opposition to the Vietnam war in the United just make a couple of points. Over the next four years, States, the US Government brought 16,000 troops into we are looking for cash reductions in policing budgets— Washington, in addition to the police, who rounded up once we take into account the fact that there is a precept and arrested the rioters and put 40,000 of them in the that helps fund the police—of 6%. I believe that is DC stadium in one morning? Has he any plans to make totally achievable without any reductions in visible policing, Wembley stadium available for similar use? and a growing number of police chiefs are making that point. The Prime Minister: I want the Wembley stadium to Let me make two additional points on that. Today we be available for great sporting events, and I think that it still have 7,000 trained police officers in back-office is important that as we get back to a sense of normality jobs. Part of our programme of police reform is about those sporting events go ahead. My right hon. Friend freeing up police for front-line duties, and that is why I makes an important point, and to be fair to the police—we can make this very clear pledge to the House: at the end should all think carefully before starting to criticise of this process of making sure our police budgets are police tactics when they are the ones on the front affordable, we will still be able to surge as many police line—they now say that to begin with they spent too on to the streets as we have in recent days in London, in much time concentrating on the public order aspects Wolverhampton, in Manchester. It is important that and not enough time concentrating on the criminality people understand that. aspects. It has been the greater police presence on the streets and the greater number of arrests that has helped The right hon. Gentleman asked about the courts to bring this situation under control. One police chief system and whether we can surge capacity in our magistrates told me yesterday that it is time to tear up some of the and Crown courts. Yes, that is exactly what Cobra has manual on public order and restart it. He said, “We been asking for in recent days. On sentencing, I chose have done this many times in the police and we will do it my words carefully. Of course, it is for courts to sentence, again and get it right.” It is in that spirit that we should but the Sentencing Council says that those people found praise British policing. guilty of violence on our streets should expect to have a custodial sentence. Several hon. Members rose— The right hon. Gentleman asked about CCTV. We fully support CCTV. We want to regulate it to make Mr Speaker: Order. A great many colleagues are sure that it is used properly, but it has been immensely seeking to catch my eye, which is entirely understandable. valuable, as I have seen for myself in police control I want to accommodate Members, but I issue with rooms up and down the country. particular force my usual exhortation for brevity. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether there would be any cap on the money that is available for communities. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I welcome Of course, the Riot (Damages) Act has no cap at all, what the Prime Minister has said about the death of and because we are allowing the 42-day period people Mark Duggan and about compensation for victims. In will be able to apply to the police and the Government Tottenham, 45 people have lost their homes, which were will stand behind the police. burnt to the ground. They were running out of their When it comes to the deeper lessons, the right hon. homes carrying their children in their arms, and their Gentleman is right. He quoted a speech that I made cry is, “Where were the police?” We can have this debate when I said that explaining does not mean excusing, today, but it is no replacement for hearing from the and he is right to say that the causes are complex. I hope people themselves. Will the Prime Minister come to that the debates we will have on the causes will not Tottenham and speak with those victims and the immediately fall into a tiresome discussion about resources. independent shopkeepers, hairdressers and jewellers whose When there are deep moral failures, we should not hit businesses are lying in cinders? Will he also commit to a them with a wall of money. I think that it is right that public inquiry to consider why initial skirmishes were the absolutely key word that he used, and which I used, allowed to lead to a situation in which the great Roman was responsibility. People must be responsible for their road, Tottenham high road, now lies in cinders? actions. We are all responsible for what we do. Finally, the right hon. Gentleman asked how we will The Prime Minister: I will certainly take up the right listen to communities and what sort of inquiry is necessary. hon. Gentleman’s invitation to go to Tottenham and As I found when talking with many Members on both hear about that for myself. When I visited Croydon, I 1061 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1062

[The Prime Minister] Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): Metropolitan police officers have shown great courage and a high found real anger on the streets about what happened degree of determination over the past few days, but and how it could be allowed to happen. There was a lot does the Prime Minister share my concern about reports of questioning about police tactics and the police presence. that police officers on several occasions were instructed As I said in my statement, to be fair to the police, I to stand and observe the rioting and looting? Does he think that to begin with, because of the situation with agree that that cannot be acceptable behaviour, and Mark Duggan, they were hanging back for a very good that, if perhaps for understandable reasons because of reason, but they clearly understand and accept that that the controversies after the G20 summit the police are went on for too long and that their presence needed to concerned that they might be criticised for over-reacting, be greater, more robust and needed to protect people’s there is an urgent need for fresh guidelines so that there homes and shops. We will now do everything we possibly is no ambiguity and that it is the police, and not looters can to get those people re-housed quickly and ensure and rioters, who will control our streets? that that money is available, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and The Prime Minister: My right hon. and learned Friend Local Government has been in touch with almost all makes a good point, and obviously we will look again at the local government leaders affected and we will keep the guidance. Let me be clear: there was no instruction that up. In terms of what inquiries are necessary, I think to police officers to stand back, but as I have said, and I that we should start with the Home Affairs Select think police chiefs have been very frank about this, the Committee inquiry. We should let it do its work and balance between what is right for public order and what take it from there. is right for stopping criminality—looting and thieving—was not got right to start with. They admit that, they accept that, but they were—to be fair to the police, who do that Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Will very difficult job on behalf of us all—facing a new set the Prime Minister encourage media organisations to of circumstances. Yes, they have had riots before; yes, release immediately all unseen footage of criminal behaviour they have had looting before; and yes, there has been in order to assist the police in bringing criminals to violence and vandalism; but we have not in our country justice? before had the same thing happening in different places with different people all doing it at the same time. That The Prime Minister: I will certainly do that, and I was was a challenge for the police—a challenge that I believe impressed, in the control room of the West Midlands they are now meeting excellently—but they did not get police and emergency services yesterday, by how amateur everything right to start with and they are the first to photographers have been sending in footage to help the admit that. police to arrest those who are guilty. As has been said Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I am grateful today, everyone has a responsibility. Media organisations, to the Prime Minister for his telephone call yesterday. too, have a responsibility, and I hope that they will act What happened in Salford on Tuesday night was not on it. about protest; it was about deliberate, organised, violent criminality. Will he give his full backing to the police to Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): No one disputes intervene in such circumstances? It was the case that for a second the Prime Minister’s determination to meet some officers, who did not have riot gear and were not what he describes as the first duty of Government to trained, had instructions to stand by and watch what keep the streets safe, but does he not understand that his happened. The effect on public confidence is devastating, repetition of what amount to Treasury lines about so will he ensure that the police have the backing and police numbers and police budgets, and about prison confidence to review the guidance so that we never numbers, sounds very complacent? Could I beg of him again see the police fall back in the face of a violent to recognise not only the reality that those cuts will lead mob, as we saw on our streets? to fewer police on the streets, but that he must reverse The Prime Minister: The right hon. Lady speaks with the softer sentencing plans of his Justice Secretary and all the authority of a former Policing Minister who stop the ludicrous plan that the Justice Secretary has to knows this issue well and, I know, discussed it with the close prisons when there is patently now an urgent need chief constable of Greater Manchester. Clearly, what for more prison places? happened in Salford was unacceptable, and tragically it reversed very many good years of excellent work, breaking The Prime Minister: I do not accept what the right up gangs and taking on organised criminals, and I hon. Gentleman says about police numbers, and indeed suspect that what happened is that those gangs and neither do chief constables—many chief constables. criminals saw it as an opportunity to reassert themselves. The chief constable of Thames Valley police said that All those lessons must be learned, and I know that the Greater Manchester police chief, to whom I too have “what I haven’t done at all is reduce the number of officers who do the patrol functions, so the officers you see in vehicles, on foot, spoken, wants to learn those lessons. It is not right ever in uniform, on bicycles. We haven’t cut those numbers at all.” to cede control of our streets to hooligans, which is what happened briefly in Salford, but we have to rest Let me make this additional point to the right hon. with the operational judgment of police chiefs when Gentleman. One thing the past three days have they are on the streets, and the time to learn the lessons demonstrated is that the Met, where we have 32,000 is now. officers, actually could take the action to surge from 3,000 on the streets to 16,000 on the streets. I think that Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I is a demonstration of using what you have to maximum commend the Prime Minister for his decision to take effect. action on gangs, but I want to raise another issue with 1063 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1064 him. He rightly told the House that the whole country Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): It was moved by the dignified words of the father of is undeniable that these criminals who looted, stole, Haroon Jahan yesterday, who made those comments rioted and caused intolerable damage to their victims against the background of some ethnic tension and must be dealt with by the police and the justice system. I managed to calm the situation. There is at least a risk ask the Prime Minister, do we regard these people, that evil-minded people will try to use these conflicts to however abject their acts, as irreclaimable to society, at raise ethic tensions and conflicts further. Will the great cost to the police, the justice system and the prison Government take action with the leaders of communities system, or will we have positive policies to try, if at all to ensure that that is not done and is prevented? possible, to reclaim them for society? The Prime Minister: The Government will certainly do that. I was in Birmingham yesterday and joined a The Prime Minister: I agree with the right hon. meeting of community leaders from all religions, all Gentleman that we must never write people off, however creeds and all races, who came together to make sure bad they are. We must try to build a stronger society in that the communities did not respond in an inappropriate which we can turn people’s lives around. One of the way to the dreadful events that had happened. I pay lessons from this is that too many people have been left tribute to the chief constable of West Midlands police, for too long and we need much earlier intervention. the leader of Birmingham city council and all the This is something that Members from all parts of the people who went out from that meeting and spoke to House have spoken about. When we see children going their communities to appeal for calm. The scenes that wrong, we must intervene earlier rather than leaving we all saw on our television screens last night of them to fall out of school and lapse into a life of communities coming together in Birmingham to try to criminality. stop the violence was a model of how these things should be done. Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): If these riots had broken out in any city or town in Australia or Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Bearing in America, the police would have had at their instant mind what the Prime Minister has just said, what disposal water cannon, plastic bullets and tear gas. justification can there be in the west midlands for very Across the UK, British people watched on television experienced police officers who have served for 30 years while police were instructed to stand back when shops or more being forced to retire against their wishes were looted, homes were torched and cars were set on because of the cuts? Is it not the case that where there is fire. Does the Prime Minister really believe that 24 hours’ no adequate police presence, as has unfortunately been notice of the use of water cannon is good enough? Is it the case once or twice in the past few days, the mob not the case that this is not about police numbers, but takes over? about police being given the tools to do the job? The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. When I was in Wolverhampton yesterday, I heard The Prime Minister: First, let me say to my hon. that the number of police officers was something like Friend that the police have access to baton rounds and doubling overnight compared with the previous night. I they can make the decision to use them—in London, suspect that the same was happening in Walsall, West they came quite close to making that decision. That Bromwich and other parts of the west midlands. One must be an operational decision for the police. The very lesson we must learn is that we need the ability to surge strong advice from the police is that because, on the the number of police in our communities very rapidly whole, they were not dealing with very large crowds, but when such problems arise. Let me say again that the with very mobile crowds who were intent on criminal police do a difficult and dangerous job on our behalf. behaviour, water cannon would not have been appropriate They learn from experience. The police in our country in those circumstances. That is the police view. The are hugely experienced in dealing with difficult situations. point that I have made is that we should be ready for They do not always get it right. We must praise them every possible contingency in future, so we should know when they do get it right. Here, we must say that some how we would answer future questions. That is why of the tactics need to change, but we should not substitute water cannon are now available at 24 hours’ notice. our own judgment for theirs—that would not be a However, I do not agree with my hon. Friend in that I sensible approach. think that the greatest possible deterrent to the sort of lawlessness that we saw is for people to know that, if Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): My constituents they do that looting and violence, they will be pulled and I witnessed shocking events in Enfield on Sunday out of the crowd, arrested immediately and be in front and Monday. What was particularly shocking was the of a court that night. That is the answer. The key to that age of a number of the culprits. Will the Prime Minister is more police on the streets so that they are able to be ask the police authorities to work with the education more robust in their interventions. authorities to identify the many secondary school children who were out there causing these crimes? Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome all the The Prime Minister: That is certainly a sensible steps that the Prime Minister has taken since the start of suggestion. Over and above that, we must recognise that the disorders and join him and others in condemning the responsibility for the fact that some of these children—I the criminality and praising the police. Like him, I was use the word “children” advisedly—are out on the streets out on the streets of London yesterday, and the key rests with their parents. We need parents to take more issue was police visibility. Is the Prime Minister saying responsibility for their children, teach them the difference that, if a police force has to dip into contingencies to between right and wrong, and point out that this sort of pay for what has happened in the past few days, the behaviour is completely unacceptable. Government will reimburse all the money? 1065 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1066

The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman very clear message from the whole country this week for what he has said and for the work that I know his that people want visible policing, but they want very Committee will do in the coming weeks. The Treasury is robust policing too. standing ready to assist police forces. Clearly, the bill for the Metropolitan police force for the past few days will David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): The Prime be large and, if they continue to deploy in those numbers, Minister will be as pleased as I am that there has been it will get larger and the Treasury will stand behind that. no rioting or looting in South Shields. He has rightly praised the independence and professionalism of the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) chief constables. Why, therefore, does he want to get rid (LD): Those of us in the communities affected give our of them all and make them stand for election? thanks to the police and the emergency services, but are conscious that if the best deterrent is being caught, the The Prime Minister: We are not proposing to make police have a minority of officers trained and able to use chief constables stand for election; what we are proposing riot headgear and equipment. Will the Prime Minister, is to have police commissioners stand for election, replacing with the Home Secretary, consider reversing that so that police authorities. The point that I would make is this: there is a presumption that most police officers are in yes, we have independent police chief constables and, that position, and can act and intervene? Will he ensure yes, they have to be responsible for their judgments, but that the full force of the law does not descend only on in recent days the argument that it is important that the hardened 50 per community—the serial criminals—but they are accountable politically—and there is a discussion on the adults with children who were also going into the that can take place between politicians and police chiefs—is shops and nicking stuff, and not just the children for a thoroughly good one. whom they are meant to set an example? Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Ealing The Prime Minister: On the right hon. Gentleman’s town centre was badly smashed up on Monday night. A first point, of course there will be a proper review of the man is critically ill in hospital, having been attacked by right balance between riot police and normal borough a yob when he tried to put out a fire in a litter bin. policing so that we meet such emergencies better in People are pretty devastated. Morale was slightly lifted future. Of course that will happen. when we heard the Prime Minister say that those big In terms of prosecuting the guilty, the police should enough to take part in the protest are big enough to go after everybody. They have the CCTV images, and take the consequences. Can he assure my constituents people all over the country are ringing up and explaining that those who are found guilty of being caught up in that their neighbour has just acquired a new 42-inch this mayhem will feel the full force of the law, including plasma screen. I encourage even more people to do that prison sentences? for as many people as possible to be nicked. The Prime Minister: Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance, and I thank her for the briefing that she Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): gave me on what had been happening in Ealing, particularly The people of Liverpool are united in their absolute on Monday night. I can give her that assurance: sentencing condemnation of the criminal acts that wreaked so must be a matter for the courts, but the Sentencing much havoc and caused so much fear in parts of Liverpool Council is clear that people taking part in violent disorder in the past few days. What specific arrangements has the should expect to go to prison. Prime Minister made to enable the city and others that have suffered similarly to be assisted in a swift recovery? Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): May I invite the Prime Minister to join me and the people of The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for Walthamstow in putting on record our gratitude not speaking on behalf of Liverpool, which also suffered only to the police, who have worked so hard to restore from the violent disorder. Liverpool will be able to calm to our streets, but to the outreach and community apply, through not only the existing Bellwin scheme but workers, who have been out every night talking to the new special scheme which does not have a threshold people to reduce the tension and restore order on our that needs to be crossed to claim payments. Also, the streets in partnership with the police? May I invite him Riot (Damages) Act is effectively unlimited in the claims to meet those people, so that he can understand that that can be made and, as I have said, the Home Office talking about resourcing that work is not a tiresome will stand behind police forces. There is therefore a debate? Rather, we must learn from their experience in series of measures and there will be written statements restoring order, not just over the next few days but on in the House today, so the hon. Lady can see full details every day in our communities across the country. and share them with her council leader. The Prime Minister: I am certainly happy to meet the Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I know that the hon. Lady. The point she makes—that reclaiming the Prime Minister will agree that we in Britain still have the streets is an issue not just for the police but for everybody—is best police force in the world. However, does he also absolutely right, and we have seen fantastic examples of agree that it is time that the police were refocused on that right across our country. The point that I was being crime fighters instead of social workers? trying to make about resources is that of course resources will be debated in the debate that follows, but I hope The Prime Minister: I think the police have the clearest that we can also have a debate about some of the possible message that we want them to be a police force. culture, some of the upbringing, some of the parenting We want them to be focused on crime; we do not want and some of the deeper points that lie behind these them fighting paper behind their desks. They have had a problems. 1067 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1068

David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Front-line experience of riot control, so that it can advise on how officers were telling me last night that they have been to handle such situations in future? afraid to use a measure of physical force because of concerns about criticisms by Members of Parliament, The Prime Minister: It is of course enormously helpful which they have seen before. I welcome the Prime having Sir Hugh Orde, who served so well in Northern Minister saying that we will be robust and do whatever Ireland, as chairman of the Association of Chief Police it takes, but can he assure us that Members of this Officers, and I raised in Cobra myself the issue of House will support the police if they have to strike accessing the expertise of the PSNI. One of the issues people with batons or kettle them in? Force has to be that we needed to grip quickly was the fact that this was met with greater force. not a political protest; they were looting gangs and so every case was different. That was one of the difficulties The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks with that the police service faced. great expertise, because he serves as a special policeman. The point is this: people want robust policing, and of Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Is it any course the police have to be sensitive to things that have wonder that these events have taken place when the happened in the past—sometimes the pendulum can authority of parents, teachers and the police has been swing too far one way, and then too far the other eroded so consistently for so many years? Hopefully the way—but I am sure that the message has been received Prime Minister will reverse that process. He has said loud and clear that when there is such violent criminal again and again that it is the stability of families that behaviour, people want a very robust response. counts, and he has made tremendous progress in advancing the debate, but before the election he said that marriage Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): The Prime was the key and that he would introduce a married Minister has talked about the role played by gangs and persons tax allowance. That still has not happened. Will technology in the disorder that has taken place over the he now do it? last week. Does he share my concern about the popularity and accessibility of internet footage glorifying gangs The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend knows, I and knives? What will he do to ensure that those despicable think that we should support families and marriage in videos are taken down? every way that we can. We should set a simple test for all Government policies of whether what we are about to The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady speaks very do will enhance responsibility, whether of parents, teachers powerfully for Lewisham and her constituency, and also in school or police officers on the streets. If it will, we on this issue, on which frankly everyone has responsibilities should do it, but if it would not, we should not do it. —not just Members of Parliament, the police and parents, but media companies and social media companies that Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Does are displaying those images. All of them should think the Prime Minister realise that in times of economic about their responsibilities and taking down those images. downturn acquisitive crime always increases? The difference That is why the Home Secretary is going to have meetings this week was that it was backed up by extreme violence with those organisations to see what more can be done. and perpetrated by mobs. In that light, may I ask him to reconsider the cuts to police budgets? He will be seen as Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Two of the giving in not to mob violence, but to common sense. shocking images that the Prime Minister referred to in his statement took place in my constituency. May I The Prime Minister: I simply do not accept this thank him for coming to Croydon on Tuesday? Yesterday determinism that changes in the economy mean automatic and the day before, my constituents finally got to see the changes in the levels of criminality. Indeed, the figures kind of policing—in terms of visibility and robustness—that for the last recession disprove that. We should be clear they want to see every day. Can he reassure me and my in this House that it is criminals who are responsible for constituents that we will see not just a temporary change crime. It is an individual act, and we should hold people in police tactics and visibility, but a permanent one? responsible for their acts. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for what Welsh police forces that gave great support to police he did to introduce me to some of the affected shopkeepers forces across England. and home owners in his constituency, some of whom have been made homeless. I can give him that assurance, Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I congratulate because—as I have said—one of the things that has the Prime Minister on the leadership that he has shown been demonstrated in the last few days is the importance on this issue and the initiatives that he has announced of surging police numbers quickly.There are 32,000 officers today. Is it not the case, though, that those local authorities in the Met, and having just 3,000 on the streets on that attempted to close down youth services should Sunday and 6,000 on Monday was not enough. That is think again and perhaps consider shutting off some of why action was taken to increase the numbers and I am the more lavish perks enjoyed by some local authority sure that lessons will be learned in that regard. workers instead?

Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The The Prime Minister: At a time when everyone has to Police Service of Northern Ireland has been available make budget reductions, every organisation, be it central with resources to support the police here in what they Government, local authority or police force, has to are doing. In the context of reviewing the actions of the focus on the front end and the things that matter most. police in the past few days, may I ask the Prime Minister We are doing that in government and police forces are to get them to involve the PSNI, given its lengthy doing it too. Local authorities should do the same. 1069 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1070

Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) House have not been able to reach the information or (Lab): I was on the streets of Hackney at the height of the people, but I do not see why that should be the case the rioting on Monday night, and I know how frightened in this instance. people were and remain. The most important thing is to regain control of our streets, but on the question of the Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): Some cities Army, let me say this: I am well aware how attractive the have suffered hugely this week, while others have avoided further militarisation of this situation is to some Members violence and managed to quash any potential trouble of this House and even to some of my constituents, but before it kicked off. When inquiries are established and the Prime Minister will be aware that Sir Hugh Orde, when the Select Committee does its work, will the Prime who has ordered the firing of baton rounds and the use Minister ensure that we learn lessons not only from the of water cannons in Northern Ireland, is against the use areas where violence did kick off, but from cities such as of such things in the current situation. I say to this Cardiff and Sheffield, where there was no trouble? House, whether it is a popular thing to say or not, that Perhaps we can learn lessons from what went right in the further militarisation of the situation we face will those areas. not help and might bring things to an even worse level. The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely The Prime Minister: First, let me agree with what the right, and any inquiry should certainly do that. hon. Lady said, I think very powerfully, about the fact Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab):I, too, thank that this was criminality on the streets, and about how the Prime Minister for visiting Croydon earlier in the frightened people were. I agree with Hugh Orde and week, where he met our decent citizens who had become others who say that now is not the time to take such victims, had seen their buildings and businesses burnt steps. Government have a responsibility to ask about down, and had seen their offices and shops trashed. The contingencies: to work out what will happen next, and plea from people in that Croydon war zone—for that is what would happen if things got worse. Those are what it was—was “Where were the police?” For hour responsibilities that we take very seriously. Let us, however, after hour after hour, people were free to pillage and take this opportunity to pay tribute to what the armed loot, with no uniformed officers around. services often do in our own country when it comes to floods and other emergencies. They play an incredible This is not partisan. May I ask the Prime Minister, on role, and we should thank them for it. behalf of the people whom I have met over the past two days, distraught and sad people, the people of Croydon Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): Does my right North who have been the victims—may I plead with the hon. Friend agree that at a time like this, facing the Prime Minister, on behalf of my constituents—to think circumstances that we face, it really is a nonsense that again about police numbers? The people of Croydon, magistrates courts must refer cases to the Crown court and indeed the people of London, want more police in because their own sentencing powers are inadequate? London, not fewer. Providing fewer would be precisely Will he take immediate steps to give magistrates courts the wrong policy, at precisely the wrong time for our the powers to deal with these cases so that the perpetrators society. can be where they belong—behind bars? The Prime Minister: The time that I spent in Croydon with the right hon. Gentleman was incredibly powerful. The Prime Minister: As I said in my statement, we I heard about the immense frustration, and the anger, keep the sentencing powers under review. Magistrates that those shopkeepers, householders and tenants felt. courts can pass sentences of up to six months, and they Let me say this to the right hon. Gentleman, however. have been doing so. They have been passing sentences The problem was that the police were not on the streets. overnight, and also referring cases to the Crown court. I The problem was not about police budgets in four think it vital for us to ensure that there is enough Crown years’ time, but about the availability of the police right court capacity to deal with these cases quickly. now. There are 32,000 officers in the Met. We needed to get more of them on to the streets more quickly, and Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May more of them to Croydon. It is about now: it is not I beg the Prime Minister to change his mind about the about the budgets of the future. commission of inquiry? This is not going to go away, although we might wish it to do so. It is a complex, Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I welcomed changing social phenomenon, which we have to understand the Prime Minister’s comments about the role of social in order to combat it. Will the Prime Minister announce media. May I urge him to look into might be called the the establishment of a commission of inquiry this week? internet equivalent of hoax 999 calls? It would seem This goes to the roots of the present situation. As the that the police have had to waste considerable time Prime Minister knows, I am a great supporter of Select dealing with false and malicious rumours about mob Committees, but it is not enough to leave the matter to a activity, and the law and penalties must be fully up to Select Committee inquiry; we need a national commission date with that. of inquiry. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very The Prime Minister: I think that we should have good point. Just as the police have been using technology confidence in the ability of our Select Committees in more effectively, so the criminals are now using technology the House to do this work, and I think that the Home more effectively. An awful lot of hoaxes and false trails Affairs Committee does an excellent job. As I have said, were laid on Twitter, BlackBerry Messenger and the I do not rule out other things for the future, but let us rest, and we need a major piece of work to make sure start with that. Sometimes, commissions of inquiry the police have all the electronic capabilities that they have had to be ordered because Committees of the need to hunt down and beat the criminal. 1071 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1072

Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): Can the Prime Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I urge the Prime Minister say what measures he has in mind to strengthen Minister to resist the knee-jerk calls for a revision to the families, and in particular parental responsibility, which plans for the police budgets and police numbers. We so many members of the public rightly think is a big should remember that this is about the deployment and factor in all of this? management of resources, and about the more effective use of resources. That is the view of my chief constable The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman in the west midlands, and it is the view that should just one area where we have already made progress but I prevail. want to see further progress: discipline in schools. We have got to make sure that schools are able to confiscate The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right: things from children and to exclude children without what matters is getting the most out of the budgets that being overruled by appeals panels. All those steps add are there. This is not a big day for politics, but both to responsibility. We must also make sure that every parties went into the last election promising to make single tax and benefit is pro-family, pro-commitment reductions in policing budgets; the Opposition were and pro-fathers who stick around. Part of the problem proposing a reduction of £1 billion. As we are prepared is that fathers have left too many of these communities, to freeze police pay, reform allowances and ask for and that is why young people look towards the gang. greater contributions to pensions, and because we have got rid of the stop form and are reducing reporting on Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): The Prime stop and search, we can make those reductions without Minister has referred twice in the past 24 hours to affecting visible policing. But that is possible only because phoney concerns about human rights. He will be aware we have made those difficult decisions, which the Opposition of the many letters we all receive from people who are are not making. dismayed by decisions taken that seem to laugh at our values and beliefs in this country. If he is serious about Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): On wanting to build the responsible society, may I suggest Tuesday night, all was quiet across Ealing, but there that that will be much more easily achieved if we had been warnings that Southall might come under remove the invidious Human Rights Act from legislation? attack. Local people at the Sikh gurdwaras, mosques, Hindu temples and churches arranged to place volunteers The Prime Minister: The specific point that I was outside their religious places of worship to protect making was about the concern that is often expressed, them. I thank the Prime Minister for mentioning Southall and was expressed to me over the past couple of days, as and the role played by the volunteers during that day, to whether under the Human Rights Act “Wanted” but I assure him that those people were led by the local pictures, as it were, could be published. I wanted specifically Member of Parliament, local councillors, faith leaders, to send a message to police forces and local authorities community leaders and business leaders. May I ask him that they should go ahead and do that. On the Human to come out to my constituency and meet those volunteers Rights Act more generally, my hon. Friend knows that and community leaders so that they can ask him a few we have plans to reform it at source under the European questions that they feel have not been answered in the convention on human rights. past and that they fear he will not be able to answer in the future? Will he visit my constituency in the very near Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): In future? relation to Birmingham and the west midlands, may I The Prime Minister: I can see that I am going to get a add my tribute to the work of the police, the emergency number of very enticing invitations today. I think the services and local authority workers, and also to the whole country admires the protection of the temple in active citizenship shown by the broom brigades and the Ealing, Southall. I have huge admiration for those profound dignity of Tariq Jahan last night? However, I people who want to protect their homes, their properties ask the Prime Minister to look again at the police and their communities. Of course, that should be the budget figures he mentioned. He mentioned 6%, but the job of the police and we need to ensure that the police cuts amount to a lot more than that for metropolitan are on the streets in greater numbers to do that. I pay areas because of the way the formulae work. Will he tribute to the people of Ealing, Southall for what they look again at that, as I think he may be operating on the achieved. basis of duff figures? Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): The Prime Minister: First, let me again pay tribute to Does my right hon. Friend accept that the problems what was done in Birmingham; it was a model of addressed by his statement and those that will be addressed bringing communities together, and I am sure the hon. by the subsequent statement from the Chancellor have Gentleman played a part in that. one factor in common: a widespread belief that anyone The point I am making is that police funding comes can have anything they want without paying for it and from both the grant and the precept, and if we make without living within their means? Will my right hon. normal assumptions about the precept, what we are Friend therefore resist the siren calls to give up his plans asking for is on average a 6% cash reduction over four to make all departments, including the police, live within years. I do not think that that is impossible while our means, especially as every police officer whom I keeping up police visibility, and a growing number of know and to whom I have spoken says that they could police chiefs are agreeing with that. For the hon. dramatically increase the proportion of their time used Gentleman’s West Midlands force, we are basically taking effectively to the public good if they were deployed the funding back to its 2007 level. From the way he is more efficiently? It cannot be beyond the wit of man to speaking, people would think we were taking it back to live within those budgets and improve good policing the 1987 level. with 6% less resources. 1073 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1074

The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes a Manchester, too. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that very powerful point. I made a point of sitting down we need to examine tactics and ensure we get things with my own chief constable in my constituency surgery right in the future. and going through her budget line by line, to see the changes that were being made so that savings could be Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) made but visible policing would not be affected. With a (LD): The Prime Minister has quite rightly identified 6% cash reduction, it can be done. that there has been major criminal activity. I welcome the attempt to help the victims, and specifically to help Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): The Prime Minister has small businesses through the deferral of tax. Will he made much, as others have, of the importance of parental also ensure that the tax authorities do not penalise responsibility. Does he realise that for many of the businesses that are late in filing tax and VAT returns, people involved in gangs, their parents are the gangs? and in doing the paperwork, because of the disruption Some of the issues to do with gangs and how they with which they are coping? operate in inner-city areas such as Lambeth are crucial to this debate. Will he also tell me, please, what he The Prime Minister: We will certainly do that. That is means by a gang injunction? why, as I said in the statement, there will be the facility for businesses affected to pay their tax late. The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is entirely right that there is no single measure that will increase parental Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): responsibility and break up gang membership. One May I voice my support for the police, including the reason why I have asked my right hon. Friend the brave officers who faced unprecedented levels of violence Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan and criminality in Manchester on Tuesday night? The Smith) to play a role is that, before he took up his role Prime Minister says that this is about now, but there is on the Front Bench, the social justice organisation with one practical thing that he could do that would reduce which he was involved spent a huge amount of time the pressure on the Metropolitan police in particular: trying to look at the best practice in dealing with gangs. delay, or preferably cancel, the proposal to allow terrorist There are gang injunctions at the moment that apply suspects, who are currently required to live away from only to adults—we will be applying them to children—which London, to return to the city from the start of next year. can prevent people from doing particular things. That is Will he give that serious consideration? a good start, but, as I have said, there is no one single answer. The Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman served in the Home Office, I will certainly look very Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): May I join carefully and closely at what he says. Let me join him in my colleagues from Croydon in thanking the Prime paying tribute to the police; his fellow Member of Minister for his visit, which was hugely appreciated? I Parliament for Manchester, the hon. Member for Blackley also join them in their call to maintain the high police and Broughton (Graham Stringer), put it slightly differently. profile down there. Does the Prime Minister agree that I am sure that everyone in this House will praise the once the situation is stabilised we need to consider the bravery of officers, and what they do, putting themselves underlying causes and, as he says, to accept that there is in harm’s way. It is not fair to blame them if sometimes a small group in our society who do not know the the tactics do not work. I think we have to be very difference between right and wrong? careful in the way we express ourselves on this issue.

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): From the television scenes it was quite clear that this Literally thousands of victims deserve to see justice was criminality and looting and that a lot of it was done done, and it seems to me that there is very heavy by very young children who should have been under the reliance on the use of closed circuit television to capture control of their parents. images. Are the police considering other things, such as spraying indelible chemical dye on rioters, so that they Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): can identify them and pick them up the following day? The Prime Minister is completely right when he says that the tactics failed. Many in my constituency who The Prime Minister: As I have said, I think the police support the police were horrified when they saw police should look at all available technologies and should in full riot gear watching as looters went into shops, keep abreast of all potential developments, here and in filled plastic bags full of loot and left, unarrested by the other countries, to make sure that they arrest as many police. That was a victory for criminals. Will the Prime people as possible. Minister give my constituents and this House an assurance that if there is another criminal assault on the centre of Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): In Manchester, all those criminals will be arrested? Nottingham, the police public order squads, whom I accompanied last night, are a tribute to the best of our The Prime Minister: I can go further than that and front-line public service workers, but does the Prime say that even those criminals who did such things while Minister recognise and accept that the scheduled reductions the police did not intervene in the way that he and in public spending—not only for the police, but for the others would have liked will be arrested, too. Their faces fire and ambulance services, the courts, and the much- and pictures are captured on CCTV, and even as we had maligned back office staff—will affect the ability of the Cobra meeting this morning 60 arrests took place those teams to respond effectively? Will he please think across London. I am sure that the same is happening in again? 1075 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1076

The Prime Minister: It is an hour and 20 minutes Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): before I have said it, but I have to say it: there is a reason May I pay my tribute to the West Midlands police, who why we are having to reduce these budgets, and that is did an excellent job in trying to contain some very because we inherited a complete fiscal car crash. There unpleasant events in Birmingham and surrounding cities? is a connection between this statement and the statement It was right for the courts to sit overnight, because those that we are about to have, which is that if countries do who are guilty have to be punished quickly, but what not get control of their fiscal situations, we can see what discussions has the Prime Minister had with the Justice happens, with even the largest countries in the world Secretary to make sure that our prisons have the capacity getting their debt downgraded. to deal with what they will be receiving?

Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The Prime The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady raises a very Minister is quite right to look at the events of this week important point, and I was in her constituency yesterday. in the context of social malaise and family breakdown. The discussions that we have had at Cobra, and Justice May I press him on the point raised by my hon. Friend Ministers were present at all the meetings, were to make the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh)? The policy sure that we had enough capacity in police cells, enough to which he referred—support for marriage in the tax capacity in the magistrates courts system—the Solihull system—was in the coalition agreement and the court has been sitting over a 24-hour period—and Conservative party manifesto on which we were both enough capacity in our prisons to deal with this. I have elected. Surely, this week of all weeks, it is time to look been assured on all those levels that the work is there at the holistic context, support marriage and the family, and the capacity is available. review the policy, and bring forward proposals to support Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What sanctions marriage and the family in our country? will be imposed on the parents of those juveniles who are prosecuted for being involved in the riots? Should The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely not parents be held responsible in the courts for their right that that was in the manifesto, and it is indeed in children’s behaviour? the coalition agreement. The coalition agreement, where the two parties take a different view, makes allowance The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. There for that, and I remain a strong supporter of that proposal. are parenting orders that can be used, and I hope that they will be widely used on this occasion. Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): As a member of the Home Affairs Committee, I am Yesterday and the day before, homes and businesses in confident that our report will make a serious and significant my constituency were vandalised by a very small minority. contribution, but does not the Prime Minister accept It was the majority who came together in Liverpool on that something more than that is needed? We need an Tuesday and Wednesday morning to clean up the mess, in-depth, wide-ranging, full-time report, led by somebody but there is some damage that could not be swept away. with an authority and independence equivalent to that The Prime Minister has said that the Government will of Lord Scarman, and we need that quickly if the issues ensure that the police have the funds to meet the cost of to which the Prime Minister has referred are to be fully any legitimate compensation claim. Will the Prime Minister explored. confirm that all these funds will be in addition to Merseyside police’s, and other police authorities’, existing The Prime Minister: Let me make a couple of points budgets? to the right hon. Gentleman, who I know served in the Home Office. First of all, sometimes the need for wider The Prime Minister: That is exactly what I have said. commissions of inquiry has come about because the There is the Riot (Damages) Act, so businesses, even if House of Commons Select Committees could not get to they are uninsured, can apply to the relevant police the bottom of an issue; we are not even at that point yet. force, and the Home Office will stand behind that force. Secondly, these events are still continuing, so to start That is obviously a scheme that has been in place for talking about what sort of inquiry there should be now decades. In addition to that, there are, of course, the is, I think, wrong. The third point that I would make is two schemes that I have announced today, one of which this: of course one should not jump to conclusions, but will directly impact on the hon. Lady’s constituency, I think everyone is clear on the differences between because it was affected by the riots. what we have seen in the last three days and what we saw in 1981. This was not political protest, or a riot Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): about protest or politics—it was common or garden Does the Prime Minister agree that what we have witnessed thieving, robbing and looting, and we do not need an on the streets of our major towns and cities is nothing inquiry to tell us that. more or less than pure criminality and thuggery? Those who seek to excuse that behaviour, putting it down to deprivation, poverty, or current Government policies, are themselves David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Does my right symptomatic of the no-blame, no-responsibility culture hon. Friend accept that following the G10 demonstrations that has undermined our society and led us to this sorry in London, and the unfortunate death that occurred, state. many police officers have been reluctant to use force? If they do use force, what reassurances can he give them? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I have been struck, when meeting local people, The Prime Minister: The reassurance that I can give is community leaders and police officers, by the fact that that we will put the resources into the police force to everyone has been making the point that this is about make sure we have the trained officers whom we need. criminality, and not about political protest. 1077 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1078

Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): After Cambs cops for telling people what was happening and the riot in West Bromwich, local traders told me that getting rid of rumours. Will he accept those positive they feared the emergence of a new class of criminal issues and agree that clamping down on social media consumer: BlackBerry-enabled, self-organised groups, could have damaging consequences? whose new-found collectivism had diminished their fear of the police and increased their contempt for the law. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a Their clarion cry to the Prime Minister was: “Please good point. It is why the Home Secretary is going to reverse the planned reduction in police in the west explore the issue with the social media companies and midlands by 1,000 uniformed police officers.”[Interruption.] other services. The key thing is that the police were I am sorry he does not like to hear that. If he is going to facing a new circumstance. Rioters were using the give them the answer no, would he at least agree to keep BlackBerry service—a closed network—so that they the matter under review? knew where they were going to loot next, and the police could not keep up with them. We have to examine that The Prime Minister: The first half of the hon. and work out how to get ahead. Gentleman’s question, which was all about the new technology that the criminal is using, bore no relation Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): The Prime Minister to the second half of the question, which was about has said that CCTV has proved highly valuable, so can resources. What matters is whether we are going to give he explain how he might make it easier for communities the police the technology to trace people on Twitter or who want more CCTV to get more? BlackBerry Messenger or, as I said in my statement, on occasion to close them down. That is the step that we The Prime Minister: By making funds available. One should be taking, rather than immediately launching of the first things I did in politics as a Home Office into a discussion of resources in four years’ time. special adviser was to set up one of the first ever CCTV challenge funds so that communities could invest in it. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): May I urge the Prime Minister to consider not just the amount of compensation Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Does and business continuity assistance, but its speed? Time my right hon. Friend agree that when it comes to is of the essence in getting businesses back on their feet, punishment the courts need to put compensation of so that there are more jobs and money in communities victims at the heart of their deliberations, whatever the that so badly need them. income or means of the offender, and should deploy to their fullest effect the powers to confiscate the proceeds The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very of crime? good point. I can say that the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. He Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) will, speaks with great expertise as he has practised criminal from his office, be giving one-stop-shop advice to all law. There may be opportunities in the forthcoming Members of Parliament who have affected businesses sentencing Bill to look at even further powers of confiscation that want to see that money flow quickly. It is very to make sure we really get after these criminals. important not just to set up those schemes, but to make sure that the money is paid rapidly. Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): On Sunday and Monday night we saw violence, looting and ransacking Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): There are in my constituency and my borough. Some people out 1 million 11 to 19- year-olds in London. The Prime in the country have sought to attribute these acts to Minister has said a lot about children and young people, particular racial or religious groups. While we may not but he has not in an hour and a half said anything know the exact causes of all the events around the positive. Will he take this opportunity to make it clear country, does the Prime Minister agree that people of that the vast majority of young people are decent, all different religions and races were responsible and law-abiding, good people and they are appalled by the that to racialise this issue is gravely wrong and does our stigmatisation that they are getting from the media. country a great misservice? They are appalled, they are afraid. They are not criminals. They are just in fear at this time. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. This was not about race, it was about The Prime Minister: To be fair, in my statement I said crime. that what had happened was in no way representative of the brilliant young people we have in our country. As I Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): My constituency understand it, tomorrow there will be a meeting of in Bristol West had violent disorder not only this week people, I think in Westminster, saying very specifically but in April, and we appreciate the strong words that that this was not done in their name. I applaud that and the Prime Minister has used today. In dealing with the all the other initiatives by people who have stood up deeper issues in society, does he agree that people who and said, “This was not done for me or has anything to feel themselves marginalised from society are much do with me.” more likely to first listen to and then respect those strong words if people at the other end of the social Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Prime spectrum not just in the board room, as the Leader of Minister has linked social media to violence. Will he the Opposition said, but rather more popular people in join me in congratulating the huge number of people society do not display such venal and conspicuous who have used social media for positive activities such consumption behaviour that sets such a bad example as organising clear-ups? I pay particular tribute to for people who are following them? 1079 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1080

The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right, but made to reapply for them, as part of 300 safer in setting out, as it were, a hierarchy of message, it is neighbourhood job losses in London alone. The Prime important to get it across that there is simply no justification Minister says that when circumstances change we must for the sort of looting that we saw. There is no excuse change. He must now change his policy of damaging for it. the leadership of London’s safer neighbourhood police service. Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): I thank the Prime Minister for coming to Wolverhampton The Prime Minister: As I said, what we saw in London yesterday and meeting retailers who were affected by over the past few days, where we have 32,000 officers in what happened, including Mr Sham Sharma, whose the Met, was a greater deployment of more of those computer shop was ransacked and looted. What we officers on to the street. Frankly, it was not good have seen in recent days is what happens when order enough that there were only 3,000 deployed when this breaks down. When order breaks down there is no started. It shows how much can be done, getting up to liberty; there is fear. The Prime Minister is right to say 16,000 deployed, with help from outside. Those numbers that those who did this are responsible, but Governments will be available at all times in the future, even with the also have responsibilities. Will he reconsider his reductions that we are making in budgets. Government’s plans to make CCTV harder for our communities to use instead of easier, and will he also Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): Today look again at police numbers? The idea that the budgets marks the start of a long, sober and difficult post cuts he is making will not affect numbers may look mortem to find out why parts of our society chose to good as a line to take, but it will not convince the rob the very communities of which they are part. The public— Prime Minister implied that we must start by looking at the powers given to the police. May I ask him to assure Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the right hon. the House that if the police choose to use water cannon Gentleman. they can do so without influence by Ministers? If necessary, they should also be allowed to close down mobile The Prime Minister: We are making sure that CCTV phone rebro masts, as was done after the 7/7 bombings, is properly regulated, but we do not want to restrict its to make sure that we isolate the use of Twitter and use. CCTV is vital in the fight against crime, and I am Facebook, which allowed the mobs to be one step 100% committed to it. May I say how much sense I ahead of the police. thought the right hon. Gentleman spoke yesterday when he talked about the fine line between order and disorder and the importance of giving support to our police, The Prime Minister: Of course conversations have to including the excellent work done by the West Midlands take place between the Home Office and the police force? about the use of different technologies or tactics. The point that the Home Secretary and I have been making Several hon. Members rose— over recent days is that they should feel free to examine whether they need these capabilities in the knowledge that they will have political support for doing what is Mr Speaker: Order. I am very keen to accommodate necessary to keep our streets safe. the interest of colleagues, but we are now starting to get mini speeches. It is entirely understandable, but it absorbs a lot of time. May I appeal to colleagues for brevity—a Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): legendary example of which I know will now be provided The Prime Minister keeps referring to 16,000 police by the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley)? officers in London. We had them only because they came down in bus loads from places such as Salford, Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Her leaving the Greater Manchester police overstretched and Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has said that unable to face down a violent crowd of 1,000 individuals. £1.5 billion a year can be made in police efficiency We have already lost more than 300 police officers. savings. Will the Home Office mandate collaboration to There is no case for any more cuts. ensure that those savings are delivered, thus protecting the front line, which is what we all want to do? The Prime Minister: I do not think that the hon. Lady is being fair on the Association of Chief Police Officers The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important and the Police National Information Co-ordination point. HMIC has said that those savings are available. It Centre system, which makes sure that police officers are did not take into account the pay freeze for police sent to the areas where they are needed. Greater Manchester officers, the increased pension contributions or some of itself was getting mutual aid from other parts of the the extra work that we have done to cut paperwork. country. That is why I feel so confident in saying that on average 6% cash reductions over four years should lead to no Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): The Prime reduction in visible policing. Minister spoke of the significant number of young people who have no moral compass and no sense of Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): We owe a community. On Monday I visited one of the pilot sites debt of gratitude to our police services this week, but of the national citizenship programme and was impressed crisis policing is not an alternative to embedded, sustained, with what I saw. May I ask that when those pilots are community policing. So I was disappointed when visiting audited and reviewed, and recommendations are made damage in my constituency to talk to safer neighbourhood for the programme proper, the events of the past few sergeants who are losing their jobs today and being days are taken into account? 1081 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1082

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an excellent The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. It point. I feel passionately that national citizen service is has to be for the courts to set sentences, but they have a great idea for young people in our country and we tough sentences available and I am sure they will use want to make it available to as many young people as we them. can. We are piloting 30,000 places over the coming months and I look forward to visiting some of them. They will help to demonstrate what the hon. Member Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): These are for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) spoke about, which is indeed difficult times and the safety of our communities how many positive role models there are among our is important. The Prime Minister talked about the young people. Olympics and the damage to our international reputation. It was right that the England international was cancelled Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Hundreds of specialist on Wednesday, but is it right that Premier League and police officers have been deployed from Scotland’s eight Football League fixtures may be cancelled this week? forces in support of colleagues in England, and it is What is the Prime Minister’s view? right and proper that everything is provided to assist areas struck by rioting and disorder. Can the Prime The Prime Minister: This was discussed at Cobra this Minister confirm what conversations he or the Home morning. As I understand it, subsequent to that it has Secretary have had directly with the Scottish Government been decided that the Tottenham game against Everton about that support? should be postponed, but the intention is that other The Prime Minister: I am not aware of any conversations, games in London, at the start of the Premier League but I am aware of the excellent role that Scottish police season, should go ahead but perhaps starting earlier in officers played, particularly helping the West Midlands the day. That sounds sensible, if it is indeed what has force. I saw for myself their impact when they arrived in been agreed between the Premier League and the police. Birmingham, and it is very good that our forces can co-operate in that way. Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): I thank the Prime Minister, and very much welcome the tangible Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Will provisions he has put in place in case, heaven forbid, the Prime Minister pay tribute to police forces from such riots should ever happen again. The fact that there outside London, such as Bedfordshire, which sent has been no consequence from criminal actions has considerable numbers of officers to London and whose been a problem that communities out there have been remaining officers have had to work greatly extended screaming about for years, from low-level antisocial shifts, magnificently supported by large numbers of behaviour to excrement put through letter boxes—just special constables, to keep policing going in Bedfordshire? talk to people in Henbury in my constituency. Although I very much welcome the provisions for emergency The Prime Minister: I certainly do. I support having situations, can the Prime Minister reassure me that the local police forces; I was never in favour of large police fact that criminal and antisocial actions have consequences mergers and the last 72 hours have demonstrated that will seep right down to the start of those problems in we can have a system that gets the police officers we our local communities? need in the places where we need them.

Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks powerfully (Lab): The police, courts and Crown Prosecution Service about this. It will be a wake-up call to the police on the must be commended for their work around the clock to way they work with communities, and will make them deliver swift arrests and charging decisions, but they even more determined that even low-level disorder and have much more to do, not least to ensure that successful violence must be punished quickly. We must look for prosecutions are now delivered. Given the unprecedented good things to come out of this situation, and one good nature of these events and the strain that the justice thing should be that the police will connect themselves system is already under due to budget cuts, will the even more deeply to communities, some of whom do Prime Minister commit today to making additional feel let down. resources available to ensure that justice can be delivered for victims? Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I pay The Prime Minister: At Cobra, there was not only a tribute to all the public sector workers we rely on time Justice Minister but also the Attorney-General, making and time again, and in particular those in Staffordshire. sure that when a police force reported any problems Over many months, I have had letters from serving with the local CPS we could work quickly to make sure police officers concerned about the Winsor report and that resources were put in place. We should continue the knock-on effect on morale, and about A19 and that in the coming days, perhaps mostly at official level, losing senior officers. Now they are concerned about to make sure that bottlenecks are dealt with. the fact that having been called on at our time of need—out on the streets, putting themselves in the Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I warmly firing line—they are having their leave cancelled and welcome what my right hon. Friend said about robust having to give up holidays due to overtime requirements. sentencing. Although speedy justice is important, it It was an hour and a half before we heard the words should not be at the expense of unacceptable compromises. “Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary”, and we Surely all those who organise riots through misuse of have heard nothing about Mayor Boris Johnson’s view social media, attack police, throw missiles or commit about policing cuts. Will the Prime Minister finally get arson should face long sentences of imprisonment. to his feet and address the loss of 16,000 jobs? 1083 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1084

The Prime Minister: I do not know whether we need capital. The point I made about the deployment of an inquiry into safety in the House, Mr Speaker, but officers is one of the lessons we have to learn about the someone seems to have stolen the hon. Gentleman’s ability to surge up numbers quickly when circumstances jacket. require it. I accept that we are asking police officers to do a difficult job and, yes, we are asking them to undergo a Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Does the pay freeze, as other public sector workers are doing, but Prime Minister agree that no matter how good a job the we are giving them the backing they want by cutting police do in arresting people, too many thugs simply do paperwork and enabling them to get out on the street not care if they are caught, because they have no respect and do the job they want to do. for or fear of the criminal justice system? Until we resolve that, we will not be able to resolve the wider Mr Speaker: I am grateful for the Prime Minister’s problem. concern, but I assure the House that nothing disorderly has happened. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good South (Robert Flello) was perfectly in order. He was point. There will be people arrested this time who focusing not on sartorial matters but on violence, and casually entered a broken-down shop and nicked things, he was perfectly in order. We will leave it at that. I ask thinking it was somehow okay, who will get an almighty the House to try to rise to the level of events. shock when they get a criminal record, and potentially go to jail—quite right too. But my hon. Friend is right to say that there is a hard core who are not frightened Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) enough of the criminal justice system, and we need to (Con): I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement, make sure that they are. particularly the support he is offering small and medium- sized businesses. As someone whose business has been Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): On behalf of directly affected, although not disastrously, I know the the overwhelming majority of my constituents who disruption it is causing. Will the Prime Minister assure were appalled by the organised criminality that trashed me that no business will be lost and no livelihood the centre of Manchester, I thank the Prime Minister subsequently lost because of the actions of those thugs for his phone call to me. There has to be a review of and hooligans, and that the £20 million support fund, if policing tactics, and he is committed to it. That may deemed not big enough, will be increased to make sure reveal that because police officers in Greater Manchester that those things do not happen? were working 12-hour shifts on the night Manchester was trashed, there is a real question about the numbers The Prime Minister: Of course we will keep the issue available. In that context, can the Prime Minister commit under review, and there is the Riot (Damages) Act as to the House that he will at least review the situation to well as the £20 million scheme. I believe that should be make sure that numbers can never be an issue in not enough, but my hon. Friend the Minister of State, having uniformed police on duty when we need them? Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will be on the case. The Prime Minister: Of course, we will look at all these issues, and ACPO, the Home Office and others Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Violence will want to learn all the lessons. I would simply make is always to be condemned, but as the Prime Minister the point that, because it was possible in Manchester, said, seeking to understand violence is a world away London, Wolverhampton and elsewhere to surge the from seeking to justify it. Indeed, we ought to try to numbers up more rapidly on Tuesday, it would have understand it to stop it happening in future. Given the been possible on Monday. This is not to criticise the growing evidence, from Scarman onwards, that increasing police—no one can get everything right when they are inequality has a role to play in drawing at least some dealing with these difficult situations—but we have got people into violent behaviour, can the Prime Minister to look at the surge capacity, rather than pretending reassure the House that comprehensive impact assessments that this is all about resources in two, three or four will be undertaken before his Government introduce years’ time. any more policies that increase inequality? Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): My The Prime Minister: Everyone wants to see a fairer constituents will commend the Prime Minister’s statement and more equal country, but I have to say to the hon. and the Leader of the Opposition’s sentiments, which Lady that young people smashing down windows and are in marked contrast to those of the former London stealing televisions is not about inequality. Mayor, whose shameful comments seeking to justify the riots that wreaked havoc in places such as Enfield Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Will the should be condemned by all the House. Although we Prime Minister join me in congratulating policemen provide unqualified support to our police, is this about from Suffolk and across East Anglia who came to not just resources but empowering our police—perhaps London in support of their colleagues? Will he answer to get their hands on water cannon or rubber bullets, this question? My constituents were shocked to discover but to free them up by reducing both the time that it that only 3,000 of the 32,000 policemen in the Met were takes to process individual arrests and this risk-averse on duty. What are we going to do to change that and culture, which is tying their hands? can we get cross-party support for it? The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend used to work The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend as a solicitor, he knows well that far too much time is in praising Suffolk and other police forces in East taken up in paperwork after an arrest is made. We need Anglia and Essex who got police officers into our to cut down that paperwork. Joint working between the 1085 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1086

[The Prime Minister] Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): I join the Prime Minister in praising the bravery of the police and the CPS is already helping with that. Virtual emergency services and echo the disbelief of the House courts are helping, and the 24-hour courts that have that children as young as 11 and 12 have been involved been working around the clock have made a big difference, in the violence and criminality of the past few days. Can too. the Prime Minister tell the House whether the age of any of the rioters prevented the police from using Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): anti-riot techniques? The vast majority of people in Scotland share the anger and frustration of the victims of these crimes, but they The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at what my are extremely disappointed at the First Minister’s statement hon. Friend says. Of course, the age of criminal that this is an English problem. I welcome the Prime responsibility is 10, and we do not have any proposals Minister’s statement that he will seek advice from Strathclyde to change that, but she raises an important issue about police. Will he extend that to the judicial system in whether the police at any moment needed to hang back Scotland, which took seriously the concerns of the because of the very young age of the looters—some of police and community and imposed appropriate sentences? people doing the looting were under the age of 10—and I will certainly get back to her about that. The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at what the hon. Gentleman says. I particularly admire the work Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): For the past two nights that Strathclyde has done on gangs, and I want to in my constituency, I have had a very heavy police ensure that we learn that across the United Kingdom. presence, owing to right-wing extremist groups focusing on Eltham and trying to create unrest and bad feeling Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): The day after the riot between different racial groups. Although we want to and looting at Clapham Junction in the heart of Battersea, support people who are public-spirited and come out to my constituency, we saw the inspiring sight of the defend their communities, as some of my constituents broom army of volunteers coming together—many of have done, will the Prime Minister join me in asking them young people—to do something really positive. those people not to be diverted from their efforts by As well as wanting to reclaim streets, which I am afraid those extremists who seek to exploit the situation? they did at times feel had been abandoned, they also wanted to express solidarity with local shopkeepers and The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman speaks not businesses. I very much welcome what the Prime Minister only for his constituents, but, frankly, for the whole House has said on business rate suspension, but will he commit in deprecating the English Defence League and all it the Government to do all they can to support everyone stands for. On its attempt to say that it will somehow locally who wants to ensure that we keep those vital help to restore order, I have described some parts of our businesses going and attract more businesses into our society as sick, and there is none sicker than the EDL. cities and town centres? Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): It will soon be 50 years since the last royal commission on policing, The Prime Minister: I certainly back what my hon. and the Prime Minister today has alluded to some of Friend says, and I know that she will be on to the the changing challenges that the police have faced in Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and that time. Since it is at least as important to be able to for Communities and Local Government on behalf of mobilise police officers as to consider absolute numbers, her constituents. Let me say how much I admire the will he consider the case for a fresh royal commission? broom army, not just in Clapham but in other parts of our country. People came together to say that they did The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the need to not want to put up with this and that they wanted to reform and modernise the police and policing is more clean up their neighbourhoods. They are the best of urgent than that. It is often said that royal commissions British. take minutes and last for years. I do not think that we have got years; we need to get on with the job now. Jon Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): The Prime Minister will be aware that, in Leicester city centre, in Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): When my constituency, we had some instances of thuggish rioters spilled into the heart of my constituency on Monday criminality, but thankfully not on the scale of other night, local people of all backgrounds came together cities. However, the most disgraceful incident was the from businesses, mosques and the wider community. torching of Age Concern’s ambulance bus, which takes With the police, they stood in peaceful resistance to many frail, elderly people to day care on a daily basis. keep out the rioters and helped to keep the community Will the Prime Minister consider putting aside emergency safe. We are now faced with the threat of the English funds—a pot of money—to which charities can apply, Defence League coming to my constituency in September. so that they can replace facilities that were destroyed in Despite requests to the police before these riots and to these riots? the Home Secretary, we have no affirmation that there will be a ban. Will the Prime Minister consider legislation, The Prime Minister: I share what the hon. Gentleman if necessary, to stop the EDL marching and to prevent says. Some of the things, places and people who were static demonstrations from taking place? attacked were truly shocking. For people to attack the sort of facility that he talks about really is appalling and The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady will know, a should make us stop and think about what has happened process has to be followed whereby the local authority in our country. On getting compensation and money, I and the police have to apply to the Home Office for a have set out the schemes, all of which, I think, will be ban. They should follow that process, and we will try to available to the sort of charity that he speaks about. ensure that the right thing happens. 1087 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1088

James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Merseyside police My constituents are understandably angry about the say they will lose 880 police officers, with neighbourhood violence in nearby West Bromwich and the centre of officers most at risk. Sir Hugh Orde says that “grass-roots Birmingham. Does the Prime Minister agree that the neighbourhood policing”is key to policing in this country most important thing now for the people of the black because of the effectiveness of building relationships country and the west midlands is that the Government and trust over the long run. Will the Prime Minister are seen to stand up for the law-abiding majority in our listen to Sir Hugh and reverse the cuts before long-term country? damage is done to the police’s ability to protect the public? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. I was very struck at the meeting that I had in The Prime Minister: Chief constables up and down Wolverhampton with shopkeepers and residents that the country are now coming out and explaining how they simply want to ensure that the Government and they will achieve these relatively modest budget the police stand up for the law-abiding, take back the reductions—6% in cash terms over four years—while streets and make sure that they belong to the law-abiding maintaining the rate of visible policing. Labour committed people of our country. to £1 billion of policing cuts; it would have had to do exactly the same thing as we are doing. Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Will the Prime Minister confirm whether the Bellwin scheme Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Will the Prime will operate at 85% or 100%, as it did under Labour for Minister join me in congratulating Sue Williams and flood victims? the team in Redbridge on everything they did during the recent troubles and note the fact that what has The Prime Minister: The Bellwin scheme will operate changed in the past two days—I thank him and the in its normal way, so there will be a threshold, but of Home Secretary for this—is that we have taken the course, we are putting in place an alternative scheme handcuffs off our police and allowed them to do the job that does not have a threshold or a maximum and they want to do? minimum and that will be available through the DCLG. The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): The cities in paying tribute to his constituents and all those who have been the victims of the violence and criminality, played an important part in bringing some sanity back but is the Prime Minister aware that, throughout the to London’s streets. country, such as in my community in Hastings, there were rumours and counter-rumours and social media John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): The activity about gangs meeting and that only the good Prime Minister has exalted CCTV, and rightly so. Does work of community leaders and our local police stopped he agree with me that it can deter people from breaking anything kicking off? the law? If so, will he look at the Protection of Freedoms Bill, which he obviously has not done yet, and change it The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important so that local councils are allowed to put up CCTV point. A lot of those rumours were circulating. Although cameras in areas such as those where riots took place? the use of social media helped gangs to do bad things, it also helped the law-abiding to know what was happening The Prime Minister: Local councils can put up CCTV and how to react and stop it. cameras and they will continue to be able to do so. We can all see how effective CCTV is when we see people Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): Violence walking out of court trying to hide their face because against others and theft should clearly be dealt with by they know that is how they got caught. the criminal law, but does the Prime Minister accept that removing people from social housing for unacceptable Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Does behaviour and putting them in social housing in other the Prime Minister agree with me that those who are communities, taking that unacceptable behaviour with found guilty of committing crimes during the riots them, does not solve the problem? should be forced to face up to the full consequences for both their communities and individual victims of the The Prime Minister: It can be part of solving the damage they have done? That means tough sentences, problem; it says to people in social housing, “If you but should it not also mean reparation? Does he agree misbehave, you can be thrown out of your house.” that those young people should be forced to listen while the victims of their crimes explain what the damage to Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): I congratulate Thames communities means, the jobs that will be lost, the damage Valley police on the support that they provided in to buildings and the sense of tragedy that many feel? London in recent days. Does the Prime Minister agree that relative poverty is no excuse for having no values? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. We should use all means to bring home to those criminals The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. Of the damage that they have done to their communities course, we all want to see a country where opportunity and to local people, and he makes a number of suggestions is more equal, where people can go from the very in that regard. bottom to the very top and where our schools are engines of social mobility, but the point that he makes is Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Does the Prime right: there is no excuse for the sort of law breaking, Minister accept that the events of the past five nights in looting and violence that we saw. London have changed the nature and context of the 1089 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1090

[Barry Gardiner] case for reconsidering the cuts in the police budget, which will have an adverse impact on the number of debate about police cuts? If he persists with them, the police available on the beat. The Prime Minister has people of London will not understand and they will not been unwilling to listen to Opposition Members, but forgive. Even his own party’s Mayor now opposes him will he listen to the views of that member of his own on that policy. party, who is the one elected person other than a national politician with responsibility for policing? The Prime Minister: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. I think that people in London will understand The Prime Minister: Today, as we speak, only 12% of our saying that, over four years, police forces have to police officers are on the beat at any one time. I simply make cash reductions to the budget and live within refuse to accept that we cannot get better value for those means. People in London have seen over the past money and cut paperwork so that we get the more three days what can be done when numbers are surged visible policing that everyone wants. The Labour party and police are brought out from behind their desks and seems to be completely intellectually idle about even on to the streets—from 3,000 to 16,000 in just two days. considering changes that could be made that would increase the visibility of police in our communities. Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): The Prime Minister speaks for the public on sentencing, but Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): Does the Prime the guidelines are set by a quango. Will my right hon. Minister agree with me that, for rioters, the biggest Friend look again at the Sentencing Guidelines Council deterrent is not being brought to the courts and being and consider transferring its powers either to Parliament convicted, but the courts handing down what the right or to the locally elected police and crime commissioners? hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) described as some stiff sentences? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes some interesting suggestions. I have always felt that the Sentencing The Prime Minister: First, I think the greatest deterrent Guidelines Council should be properly scrutinised by to such people is not just the sentence, but knowing that Parliament. We are considering the right way for Parliament they will be arrested and put in front of a court. That is to express its views on the contents of that very important why the strength of numbers of police on the streets set of documents. lifting and arresting people is vital. Secondly, when events such as these take place, it is perfectly possible Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May I give for courts to set some exemplary sentences, to send out the Prime Minister the opportunity to dispel the confusion a clear message, and I for one hope they will do just about his policy on surveillance cameras? Today, he that. seemed to say that he wants to see more of them, but the coalition agreement he signed up to says that the John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Last Wednesday, it Government want fewer. Which is it? was determined that all nine police cells in Bassetlaw would be immediately closed. Does the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: We want to see them in the right instinctively agree with me and local police officers that place, properly regulated, and that may well mean more now is not the time to be closing police cells? of them.

Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Can the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: It is very important that we have tell the House how many people have been charged a good network of police cells in our towns and cities, under part I, section 1 of the Public Order Act 1986 so that officers do not have to drive for miles after with the specific offence of riot, which carries a maximum making an arrest. That is why cutting some of the sentence of 10 years in prison? Does he agree that that paperwork and bureaucracy that has led to some of the would result in people being given the sort of sentences cell closures is so important. that the public demand, and will he make sure that the CPS does not undercharge people to get convictions, Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): which will end in people getting lighter sentences that Too many times recently, we have seen the Metropolitan they deserve? police force try to straddle its two main functions: leading specialist national operations and policing London. The Prime Minister: I cannot give my hon. Friend When the dust settles, will the Prime Minister consider figures on which specific part of the Public Order Act the merits of the case for splitting the Met to ensure people have been charged under, because, as he will that we have a police force for London focusing on know, that Act, which has really stood the test of time, public order and low-level criminality, and perhaps an has many parts under which charges can be laid. The enhanced agency for specialist national operations? latest figures that I have state that, in London alone, 880 people have been arrested and more than 370 have The Prime Minister: I hear what my hon. Friend says, already been charged. but with a year to go to the Olympics, I think that sort of major structural change to the Metropolitan Police Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): Service simply would not be right. At a meeting this morning attended by a number of London Members of Parliament of all parties who, like Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The criminal justice me, are concerned about the impact of the riots on their system in north Wales coped admirably with civil constituencies, the Mayor of London made it perfectly disturbances in Wrexham in 2003 for two reasons: there clear that these events made an overwhelmingly powerful was good use of CCTV evidence and immediate imposition 1091 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1092 of stiff custodial sentences. Why is the Prime Minister at measures and perhaps additional resources to strengthen presiding over a Government who are making both community organisations, which are well placed to reach those things more difficult? out to young people to stop them joining gangs in the first place? The Prime Minister: We are not. The Prime Minister: I am sorry I missed the hon. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Following Lady in Wolverhampton yesterday and I will try and these disturbances, does the Prime Minister think that make up for that in future. I met the right hon. Member the public will believe that now is the right time to spend for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), however, £150 million on elections for elected police and crime the former Trade and Industry Minister, who is no commissioners? longer in his place, so it was not any party issue. The hon. Lady makes a good point about what local government The Prime Minister: I think that when people think can do with voluntary bodies to thicken society in our about the events of recent days, they will conclude that constituencies, and I applaud that wherever it takes police authorities, which have been relatively invisible place. and which I do not believe call the police to account, Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): In addition to have not done a good job over the years. I think that providing substantial mutual aid to the west midlands having an individual to whom the police are accountable, police force and keeping up numbers on the streets of which is what happens in London, is a far more powerful Worcester, the West Mercia police have made a number way to make sure that there is a proper conversation of arrests in the past few days for inciting public disorder between elected individuals and police chiefs. through social media. Will the Prime Minister join me in commending that front-footed, proactive policing Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Given that we approach, but also make sure that the police and the have had a year of social unrest, from the student courts have the powers that they need to pursue not just protests and direct action against the cuts to the looting the perpetrators, but the organisers and inciters of this of the past few days, as well as the riots in Bristol a criminal violence? couple of months ago, all of which have put pressure on our police forces, I urge the Prime Minister to listen to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good the chair of my local police authority, who wrote to me point. We have to make sure that people who use this overnight to say the last thing the authority needs at the new technology for evil purposes are properly prosecuted moment is the disruption and distraction of elections and convicted, and I am sure they will be. for police commissioners. Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): One The Prime Minister: Of course police authorities do of the ways in which ordinary people are trying to get not welcome the fact that they are being replaced, but I their voices heard is by going on to the Government’s think that it is right that they are being replaced, new e-petitions website and signing a petition that was because they have not done a good job at calling police posted only two days ago, which has already got up to chiefs and police forces to account. We need a new almost 100,000 signatures asking for the rioters to have system for doing just that. their benefits withdrawn. How will the Prime Minister meet those raised expectations and say to the 100,000 people Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): The who have signed that e-petition that something will Prime Minister was right to say that the riots not only happen as a result of visiting a Government-sponsored appalled all law-abiding people in this country, but website? shocked people watching around the world. In the light The Prime Minister: One of the points of the new of the riots, will the Government be prepared to review e-petitions website is to make sure that if a certain level the policing arrangements during the Olympic games of signatures is reached, the matter will be debated in period, when understandably the police in London and the House, whether we like it or not. That is an important in my own force in Kent will be highly committed? way of empowering people. There may be opportunities, possibly through the new criminal justice and sentencing The Prime Minister: We believe that we have good legislation, to make sure that we are better at confiscating security measures in place for the Olympic games. We things from people when they commit crimes. We must keep them under review. There will be very intense look at all the ways we can of making sure that our meetings from the autumn onwards to the Olympic punishments are robust. games, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, to make sure that we do everything possible Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): As a former to make the games not only a success, but a safe success. police surgeon, I have personally witnessed the great professionalism of our police forces in the face of Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): extreme provocation. This week they have faced extreme As the Prime Minister is aware, businesses in violence as well. At all times they have been identifiable Wolverhampton bore the brunt of the criminal activity and therefore accountable. Is it time for us to make it an on Tuesday night. I am sure he will agree that now is the offence for anybody involved in rioting and demonstrating time for Members across the political divide to come to cover their faces, so that they too can be both and work together. I say gently to him that next time he identifiable and accountable? arrives at the train station in Wolverhampton, I will be there ready to welcome him. With regard to what he The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady makes an important said to gangs, can he reassure me and my constituents point. In my statement I said that we would extend the that as well as looking at punitive measures, he will look power that the police have—at present they can do it 1093 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1094

[The Prime Minister] The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. As I said, we should test Government policy by whether it only in limited circumstances with limited people—so improves responsibility or undermines it. that they have a more blanket power of insisting that people remove face masks. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I regret the response that the Prime Minister gave to the Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): People hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), in Nottingham are understandably shocked and very but I thank him for the words of tribute that he paid to frightened by some appalling incidents in some parts of firefighters. As the secretary of the Fire Brigades Union our city on Monday and Tuesday nights. I want to pay parliamentary group, may I ask him whether the tribute to Nottinghamshire police for bringing the situation commitment that he has given to police authorities to under control and arresting those responsible. What stand by any additional costs applies to fire authorities plans does the Prime Minister have to meet residents as well? A thousand firefighter posts have been cut over and community leaders in Nottingham to listen to their the past year and there are real concerns about overstretch. concerns and hear what they believe needs to be done to learn the lessons of recent days? The Prime Minister: The point that I was making The Prime Minister: It is important that Ministers about the police is that they have to stand behind the make a number of visits, as I have been doing over Riot (Damages) Act. That is why it is important that the recent days and will do over coming days. I think the Home Office stands behind them. It is not an analogous Deputy Prime Minister has plans to visit Nottingham situation to that of the fire brigade. very shortly. I do not have plans to do so at present, but I will be trying to get to as many parts of the country as John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): The Prime Minister I can. rightly identified new and unique threats that the police have faced in recent days. What new and unique solutions Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): I welcome my does he think will be necessary to deal with the underlying right hon. Friend’s statement, in particular his comments causes of this social unrest? on more robust policing and more tools being made available to the police. May I urge on him the fact that The Prime Minister: On the first part of the hon. for police officers and their commanders in particular Gentleman’s question, the police themselves will want to be willing to take greater risks rather than have their to review what happened when there were large numbers men stand by entails recognising that sometimes those of different groups looting in different parts of the actions will have grave unforeseen consequences? Police country at the same time. They will want to work out commanders need to be supported then. how to address that—what tactics are needed and how to make sure they get arrests made more quickly—and The Prime Minister: We must always back the police the Home Office will want to work with them in that when they do the right thing. Much has been said about endeavour. the police, police tactics and so on. Every year I attend—I know the leader of the Labour party also goes—the Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): In North Yorkshire, police bravery awards. There one sees police officers public order officers have been sent to London, Birmingham who have done extraordinary things—confronting people and Manchester. The consequence has been that all rest with guns and knives when they do not even have any days have been cancelled. Police officers are now working body armour. So let it be on the record in the House 12 hours on, 12 hours off around the clock, and there is that individual officers do incredibly brave things every no more fat to cut. Will the Prime Minister give the day, and we praise them for it. House an estimate of how much in Bellwin money, Riot (Damages) Act money and other compensation the John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): It actually public purse will have to pay out? Would it not make took four nights, not two nights, to put 16,000 police sense in future years to spend that money on the police officers on the streets of London. That put businesses instead of on paying for the cost of disorder? and people in danger, including my constituents. So far I have not heard a convincing explanation as to why that took so long. Can the Prime Minister give one? The Prime Minister: I cannot give an estimate of what will be paid out under Bellwin or under the schemes The Prime Minister: In the end, the deployment and that we have established today because that will depend the numbers are an issue for the Metropolitan Police on the demand that comes from local authorities, but Commissioner, and that is a question that he will have there is a huge amount of money and resources available. to answer. It was a different situation Sunday night to I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s idea that Monday night to Tuesday night. We must look at that somehow if we had spent more on the police this year, in finding the answer. The point that I was making is that would have prevented the disorder that took place. that it is possible to surge. The police demonstrated that The causation is entirely the wrong way around. that was possible, but we needed to surge more quickly. George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Does my right John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): The hon. Friend agree that the outbreak of mob rule this Prime Minister shares my concern about the children week has been incubating during a decade of irresponsibility on the streets and the importance of parental responsibility across our society in banking, football, media and, dare and parental discipline. Does he share my concern that I say it, in politics and the welfare state? We are witnessing certain parents say that the public institutions from the consequences of a politically correct, debt-fuelled, time to time undermine parental authority, and that anything-goes consumerist culture. Far from the debt that issue needs to be looked at as well? crisis being the cause of this criminality, it is a vital 1095 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1096 opportunity for us to wean our young people off a Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): Will the Prime shallow celebrity culture and restore some old-fashioned Minister join me in paying tribute to the 1,300 voluntary virtues of thrift, personal responsibility and respect for special constables who played a vital part in restoring the law. calm in the capital on Tuesday? Will he also take note that many special constables, including one in my The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes some constituency, Orpington, struggled to secure permission important points about the culture that has grown up, from their employer to enable them to take part in the which people will want to consider in the coming days. surge effort, which was eventually so successful?

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I commend the Prime The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. Minister on being extremely reluctant to send in the There has recently been a growth in specials in some troops, because when the troops were sent into Tonypandy forces and that is hugely welcome, but we need employers by a Liberal Home Secretary 100 years ago to try to to show a sense of social responsibility to release them deal with the riots there they made the situation worse rapidly for service when they are needed. rather than better. But does not that place all the more emphasis on ensuring that there are enough people in Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I welcome the police uniforms on the street able to do a robust job? £20 million fund for high street businesses, but the He commends Welsh police forces for sending people problem is that 48,000 retailers have been directly or down to London, but in the next four years we will have indirectly affected by the riots. Is the fund enough, and 1,200 fewer police officers in Wales and it will be more how will it work? difficult for us to help London out. The Prime Minister: The £20 million fund is available The Prime Minister: In Wales, as in England, there from the Department for Business, Innovation and are opportunities to get officers out from desk jobs, HR Skills, but there is also the Riot (Damages) Act, which jobs and IT jobs. Opposition Members shake their dates back to 1886 and may be another measure that heads. That is what is so hopeless about them—a sense the Liberals were responsible for, which enables businesses that there is no reform that can be made to try to get that have been affected by riot to claim the money from better value for money. That is why, frankly, the country the police service, which the Home Office can stand is not listening to them. behind.

David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): As a Will the Prime Minister share with me his gratitude to London MP, I was shocked and horrified by the scenes Lancashire police for sending 76 police officers to help of criminality, violence and looting that took place in out in London, and will he convey to the Opposition this great city of ours during the last week. What was that, at my insistence 12 months ago, they found a way evident was the complete lack of respect and discipline of keeping their PCSOs, preventing two of my constituents among those who did it. Will the Prime Minister reassure from fuelling violence and rioting in my constituency the House that he will work closely with schools to and in Lancaster? make sure that we can improve this for the future?

The Prime Minister: I certainly pay tribute to the The Prime Minister: I will certainly do that. In the Lancashire force, as to other forces who acted quickly task of trying to make a more responsible society where under the PNICC system to make forces available in people live up to their responsibilities, schools will play London, Manchester or the west midlands where they a major part. were most needed. Several hon. Members rose— Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Following the tragic killing of three young men in Birmingham, Mr Speaker: Order. I remind the House that Members the city faced its most dangerous moment in a decade. who were not here at the start of the statement should Will the Prime Minister join me in paying tribute to our not now be standing in the expectation of being called. brave police, under the inspirational leadership of Chief Constable Chris Sims, and all that is best in our community, Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): Tarik Jahan and my hon. Friend the Member for Scottish police assisting their English colleagues is part Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood), who of the benefit of the Union, but why is it that from the acted to hold the community together so that Birmingham beginning of the riot the Government have given the could say with one voice, “We will not be divided”? impression of being behind the curve, always paying catch-up, doing too little, too late? Is there not more The Prime Minister: I agree wholeheartedly with the than a whiff of incompetence? hon. Gentleman. I was extremely impressed when I went to the West Midlands control centre and saw that The Prime Minister: Of course, I do not accept that, Chris Sims was spending as much of his time on meeting but I do accept what the hon. Gentleman says about the and talking with community leaders and representatives Union. It is important that forces come to each other’s as he was on planning to ensure that there were the right aid, and if there were problems in Scotland, English number of police on the streets throughout the west forces would do the same thing. midlands. It was very impressive. It showed the community coming together. Birmingham city council played a big Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): role as well, and I pay tribute to all those who did a Many of my constituents in Shrewsbury have watched model job. in horror the events in some of our cities, and they have 1097 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1098

[Daniel Kawczynski] reduction in visible policing, whether in London or elsewhere. There are police officers working in IT, HR written to me overwhelmingly to ask when we will have and desk jobs that can be civilianised so that police can tangible and enforceable penalties for parents who do be released for the front line. Because the Government not discipline their children. are taking difficult decisions about police pay and allowances, we will not have to make the reductions in The Prime Minister: As I said earlier, there are parenting police numbers that the cuts proposed by the Labour orders. They can be used, they can involve parents party would have meant. paying quite hefty fines, and I very much encourage their use at this time. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I join my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The Prime (David Morris) in paying tribute to Lancashire police, Minister is quite right that our first duty is to ensure who did not just send officers down to London but also that people are safe and to bring criminals to justice, sent officers to support Greater Manchester police. but when that has been done there are serious issues to Following the arrest of a 25-year-old in Nelson in my be considered, not only about policing, but about constituency for inciting people via Facebook, will the employment and education, the values we transmit as a Prime Minister say more about what is being done to society and the direction in which we are going. These ensure that social networks are used as a force for good cannot be considered by one Select Committee, so will rather than for evil? he rethink his view on setting up a commission of inquiry into what lies behind these riots, so that we will The Prime Minister: The Home Secretary is going to ensure that they are never repeated? have meetings with some of those organisations, but even before that they should recognise their own social The Prime Minister: As I said earlier, this is only a responsibilities and stop broadcasting the images if week from the very starting event that triggered the they are inappropriate. process, so having a Home Affairs Committee inquiry to start with is right. The hon. Lady mentions the Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Like economic circumstances, but I checked this morning many others, I was shocked by the extreme youth of and in a three-mile radius from Tottenham more than some of those perpetrating the criminal activity earlier 1,300 apprenticeships are available for young people. this week, but children who are engaged in criminal That is yet another example of attempts to try to link activity are also children in need. Can the Prime Minister this to economic circumstances or to try to find some confirm that our youth offending services will be properly excuse for it, which is completely wrong. equipped and supported to provide the multi-agency interventions that are needed to redirect those young Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The film and print media people from a future of crime? have shown us footage and photographs of incidents such as people torching shops and they have interviewed The Prime Minister: Yes, I can. We are making changes looters and rioters. They would say that we have a right to the youth justice system, but that is really to incorporate to information, but they should recognise that they also it within the Ministry of Justice, where I think we will have a duty and responsibility, as members of society, be able to make it more efficient and work better. not just spectators, to report what they see to the authorities. Can the Prime Minister confirm whether Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): reporters have called the police at the time they saw The Prime Minister attracted enormous criticism years these things happening, whether the media have handed ago when, as Leader of the Opposition, he made a over their film and recordings, and whether that evidence speech tackling the consequences of family and societal will be accepted in our courts of law? breakdown. I urge him to return to these themes; he was right then and he is right now. I also ask him to The Prime Minister: I cannot give the hon. Lady that congratulate Kent police on their excellent work in assurance. What I can say is that media organisations, making our streets safe. On Monday night, youths from like others, have responsibilities and should act on those London came to Gillingham to try to set businesses responsibilities. That sort of evidence can be admissible alight, but they were detected, prevented from doing so in a court of law. and put before the courts within 24 hours. Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I The Prime Minister: I certainly pay tribute to the join the Prime Minister in praising the police, particularly Kent police force, which does such a good job. My hon. those in Harrow, who earlier this week successfully Friend referred to a speech I made about the importance prevented disorder from breaking out, but may I take of addressing the problems of family breakdown and this opportunity to point out to him that decisions irresponsibility. These things are not easy things for taken by the Mayor of London are already leading to politicians to talk about, because our families can also police sergeant posts being axed in my constituency and break down and we fail on many occasions, but it is too that a valuable local police station is set to close as a important a subject to ignore. result of those decisions? May I therefore add my voice to those urging him to think again about police budgets? Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): We all welcome the Prime Minister’s praise for the individual The Prime Minister: I can only repeat that there are police officers, firefighters and ambulance and emergency 32,000 officers in the Met and there is a perfect capability staff. Will he now follow up his warm words with warm to surge that number of officers when necessary. I do action and abandon his proposals to undermine the not believe that the sort of reductions in budgets that pension arrangements of those self same firefighters, are planned over the next four years should lead to any ambulance staff and policemen? 1099 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1100

The Prime Minister: We are taking action on the The Prime Minister: This work that is done in the advice of Lord Hutton, the former Labour Secretary of United States is also done in the United Kingdom. One State for Work and Pensions, who has written a very thing we can do is just work harder to map and understand good report. He makes certain exceptions for uniformed how many gangs there are, what their membership is services. It is a very sensible report that I am sure the and what they are doing so that we have better intelligence, right hon. Gentleman will study. but I am sure that there will be many things I can discuss with Bill Bratton when he comes to meet me Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): One of shortly. the many abhorrent aspects of the recent disorder was the threat of violence against our brave firefighters, and Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The Prime Minister yet the relevant legislation is insufficiently clear. There said he did not want a sterile debate on resources, which is no specific offence of threatening a firefighter and the I do not think any of us wants, but there is a division of Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act 2006 allows for views on whether there are sufficient police available to only a £5,000 fine. Considering that the firefighters are deal with this. I would like to praise the police in my defending not only homes and business, but lives, is it constituency for the way they helped to avoid these not now time to revisit this and make an appropriate events affecting Slough. If he is right that there are and strong custodial sentence the presumption? absolutely sufficient numbers of police, perhaps he would agree to ensure that we have a regular report to Parliament The Prime Minister: When we hear about people telling us how many police are available and how many attacking firefighters who are trying to put out fires, it is are trained to deal with riots so that we can know the absolutely appalling and unforgiveable that that can real facts. happen in our country. I know that the issue of giving specific public servants specific protection has been The Prime Minister: I would welcome that, because looked at in the past in criminal justice legislation and I the point is that the police availability figure today is dare say that we can look at it again, but I think that any only 12% of police officers on the beat at any one time. court using its discretion and judgment would want to The hon. Lady, like me, is a Thames valley MP, so let give a pretty exemplary sentence to anyone viciously me just repeat what Chief Constable Sara Thornton of minded enough to attack a firefighter when they are Thames Valley police said, which is that trying to put out a fire. “what I haven’t done at all is reduce the number of officers who do the patrol functions, so the officers you see in vehicles, on foot, in uniform, on bicycles. We haven’t cut those numbers at all.” Several hon. Members rose— We have not cut the number of officers or police community support officers in neighbourhood policing teams either. Mr Speaker: Order. Notwithstanding the very heavy Thames Valley is a big force, and as the hon. Lady and I taxation of the Prime Minister’s knee muscles, I am have sometimes argued against previous Governments, inclined to continue and accommodate the remaining it is not always a very well funded force. If it can do it Members who wish to contribute, but I urge colleagues with these budget reductions, other forces can do it too. to help me to help them by being brief. Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): Will Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I was genuinely elected police commissioners have the power to authorise saddened to hear the Prime Minister’s response to my the use of water cannon, troop support and such measures, right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley or will they have to let others further up the chain of (Mr Barron) on the proposal to evict the people responsible command make those decisions? for this damage from social housing. Some of us from the communities that have been on the receiving end of The Prime Minister: Those decisions must always be the damage and seen stable communities destroyed by an operational matter for the chief constable. Let us be these acts really know what we are talking about, so clear—I do not think that the right hon. Member for may I ask the Prime Minister to think about this and South Shields (David Miliband) fully understood this—that engage with us before pursuing the matter? we are talking not about electing chief constables, but about electing commissioners who will replace the police The Prime Minister: Perhaps I can arrange for the authorities and to whom the chief constable will be Minister for Housing and Local Government, who has accountable. worked very hard to deliver this policy, to contact the hon. Gentleman. If people in social housing behave Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): As my appallingly, it should be possible to evict them and keep constituents witnessed the terrible events across the them evicted. country and members of our own Northumbria police force were deployed to the capital, can the Prime Minister Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): My tell them how, by pressing ahead with huge public constituents have also been victims of some of the sector cuts, he will sustain their confidence in the capacity disorder in recent days and strongly welcome the much of all the public services that are meant to protect them? tougher policing that has been launched since Monday night. The Prime Minister mentioned Bill Bratton, who The Prime Minister: Perhaps the hon. Lady should has done such fantastic work in reducing crime in stay for the next statement, in which we will hear about Boston, New York and Los Angeles. Can he mention the difficult decisions we have had to take in this country some of the things that we might be able to learn from in order to keep our credit rating and have low interest the excellent beat and street policing that has been used rates so that we can get our economy growing. We now in many cities in the United States for the past 17 years? have lower interest rates than almost any other country 1101 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1102

[The Prime Minister] The Prime Minister: Now that my right hon. and learned Friend, the Attorney-General, is sitting on this in Europe. Why? It is because we are taking these side of the House and working so hard, he will make difficult decisions. If we do not take the difficult decisions, them workable. we will end up like other countries with rising interest rates, lack of confidence and, as in the United States, Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): This week which has the biggest economy of all, a debt downgrade. saw the busiest night for the London fire brigade since the blitz in terms of the number of fires in one night. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): It is my understanding Will the Prime Minister join me in commending the that public order training for police officers was reduced brave and dedicated public service that firefighters provide back in 2005. Does my right hon. Friend believe, as I throughout this country, and in thanking police officers, do, that that might have exacerbated some of the instances including dozens from Northamptonshire police, who that so annoyed the public who have watched the pictures left their force areas to help other forces that were in on TV in the past few days, and would he like to see that need of assistance? trend reversed if it has not been already? The Prime Minister: I certainly praise Northamptonshire The Prime Minister: There will be lessons to learn police, but I praise again the firefighters in London and about the extent of riot training and the balance between elsewhere who did such magnificent work. I was told it and ordinary beat-based policing, and I know that we one story of a woman firefighter who was on her way to will want to learn all those lessons in the days to come. work when a rioter pushed her off her moped and took it away, but instead of going home she just called a taxi, Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The Association of appeared for work and got on with fighting fires in Chief Police Officers undertook research that showed London. It is that sort of spirit that we should praise in that where there is a well-funded youth service there is a the House today. decrease in criminality and where there are cuts in youth services there is an increase in crime. Youth work Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): As chair of the all-party is part of a solution to this disorder, but youth workers group on retail and business crime, I can tell the Prime are being made redundant across the country as we Minister that retailers’ biggest concern is lenient sentences. speak. Will the Prime Minister introduce a moratorium Will he assure them that sentencing terms will increase, on youth service cuts? and will he come along to the group’s next meeting on 8 September to advise us of the progress on that since The Prime Minister: We are going ahead with the this debate? Myplace youth centre programme, which is seeing vast and very well-funded youth centres built in places such The Prime Minister: I might want to send the Business as Islington and Hackney and across some of the most Secretary, or someone from the Business Department, deprived parts of London. I do not accept the hon. to that meeting, but my hon. Friend makes a very Lady’s point about causation and that somehow a budget important point that businesses want not only to see the change in youth services leads inexorably to the sort of people who perpetrated the looting prosecuted and looting and rioting we saw on our streets. convicted, but to work even more closely with the police to protect their premises. I have heard that from many businesses, and from multiple chains, some of which Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): May I congratulate the had their stores attacked in many different places on the Prime Minister on his diligence and energy in remaining same day. at the Dispatch Box for two and a half hours and welcome the measures he is bringing forward to compensate Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I commend victims of the mindless violence we have seen? One the Prime Minister for his statement and his comments group with concerns are people who own vehicles that about social media. The criminal elements who visited have been torched by thugs and who have only third-party the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for insurance. Will he provide some comfort to those innocent Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) were due to victims? come to Wimbledon on Tuesday night, having been urged to do so via social networking sites. Only the The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for what boarding up of the town centre and the surge of which he says about these long sessions at the Dispatch Box; I my right hon. Friend spoke stopped them. May I urge am beginning to get used to them. Uninsured businesses the group that he has set up to look at, and to ask are able to claim under the Riot (Damages) Act. That is Ofcom to look at, the possibility of introducing variants what the Act is there for, and, as I have said, the Home to licences and temporary prohibition on a public order Office will want to stand behind police forces that are basis? adversely affected by it. The Prime Minister: We will certainly do that. What John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): method we use is less important than the intent of If the Prime Minister now wants to extend the previous looking at ways to ensure that, if social media are used Labour Government’s legislation to restrict gang members’ for violent purposes, we are able to intervene. wearing of masks, will he explain why he opposed the measures at the time and allowed the right hon. and Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I join right hon. learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), now the and hon. Members from all parts of the House who have Attorney-General, to describe them as commended the brave work of West Midlands police “practically unworkable and legally dubious gimmicks”? officers. Will the Prime Minister join me in commending 1103 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1104 the brave work of Warwickshire officers, who have also potential cost to them as taxpayers. Will my right hon. given mutual aid, and will he tell us whether the Government Friend take this opportunity to thank Cheshire police will compensate smaller forces, such as Warwickshire, for their role in related arrests, and to reassure my for that work? law-abiding constituents that they will not pay the price for the wanton criminality of others? The Prime Minister: This is how the system works. ACPO has established the police national information The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good co-ordination centre, or PNICC, through which forces point. Cheshire police gave help to Greater Manchester work together to make sure that officers get to the police and, I think, to other areas as well. I want to places where they are needed, and we should allow reassure his constituents and people throughout the those arrangements to work. country that this Government, this House, this Parliament are on the side of the law-abiding. What needs to Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Does the Prime happen is a process of taking back the streets on behalf Minister agree that those who are convicted, those who of the law-abiding, and of demonstrating to the whole have tried to destroy our society, should not receive the country that the guilty will be punished. benefits of our society? Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Will my right The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend refers to hon. Friend pay tribute to the chief constable and the petition that is gathering signatures, and, as I have officers of Staffordshire police, who not only kept said, we should look at additional powers to ensure not Staffordshire safe but policed Birmingham and Manchester? only that we confiscate things from people who have Mike Cunningham is one other chief constable who committed crimes, but that the punishments that they believes that he has the resources now and will have in receive, whether prison or not, are robust. the future to do the job. Will the Prime Minister commend him? Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): When Mark Duggan was shot last week, the IPCC immediately went in and The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend sealed the crime scene, but then no statement was made, in praising Staffordshire police, who provided assistance and that gave an excuse to the rioters. It would be good to the west midlands. Once again, this demonstrates if the IPCC, or someone, could make a definitive statement that small forces can not only do a good job in their on what happened. Otherwise, conspiracy theories build up. local communities, but help out others when they are in The Prime Minister: The difficulty with my hon. need. Friend’s suggestion is that the IPCC has got to get across the detail before it makes a statement. There is a Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): Looking to the future, I huge danger on such occasions of making statements note that far too many of the people—young and old that turn out not to be true and that inflame passions alike—who were involved in violent and criminal behaviour either at the time or afterwards when their veracity is appear to come from the relatively small number of questioned. This is an extremely difficult situation, but totally dysfunctional families in this country. Does the we must have confidence and faith in the IPCC system, Prime Minister agree that work to turn such families which is independent of the police and can, therefore, around is somewhat piecemeal, involving far too many give victims confidence. agencies, too many targets and too much paperwork? Will the Government find ways of targeting resources Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I, too, more effectively? thank the Prime Minister for coming to Wolverhampton yesterday, and I particularly welcome the initiative on The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is planning. Yesterday evening I was with a community absolutely right about that. We plan to spend additional TV station on the Dudley road, and I heard with my money on the 20,000 most troubled families in the own ears the brave, stoical and wise words of Tariq country, with more early intervention and much better Jahan. I also spoke to about half a dozen young Muslim co-ordination. So often with those families, we find that men, who said to me quite directly, “You will not stem they have contact after contact with the authorities, but this tide of irresponsibility unless the House speaks that it is contact with them rather than work to change with one voice. It is important that the issue is not behaviour and address problems. The problem is hijacked for political point-scoring.” Does my right manageable. I know that there are 20,000 such families, hon. Friend concur with that view? and there might even be 100,000, but it is still a manageable number which we can deal with during this Parliament. The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for organising that cross-party meeting in Wolverhampton, Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): and I pay tribute to him for the wise words that he Two hours and 40 minutes ago the Prime Minister in his spoke in his community yesterday, and for his efforts to statement referred to the British model of policing. My bring people together in Wolverhampton. Let me praise understanding is that that model is policing through Sangat TV, which helped the police to catch a criminal. and by the public’s consent. Does he accept that he now That was an exercise in social responsibility by a media has the public’s consent in such situations for a police company. It should be praised, and so should he. force to rebalance its concerns about individual freedoms with its own freedom to act? Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): Many Crewe and Nantwich residents have told me of The Prime Minister: I know that my hon. Friend has how appalled they have been by the despicable scenes been waiting two hours and 50 minutes to say that, but that have been played out on our streets, and by the he puts it absolutely beautifully. None of us in the House 1105 Public Disorder 11 AUGUST 2011 1106

[The Prime Minister] Global Economy wants to break with the British model, whereby the public are the police and the police are the public. They 2.20 pm come from our communities, they are known to us and The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): we know them, and it is a very special thing that we People will be concerned about the turmoil in the have, but that model has to be refreshed and updated world’s financial markets and what it means for economies with new tactics, resources and technology, as appropriate, here and across the globe. I want to update the House so that it meets new threats. One message of the past on what we are doing to protect Britain from the storm few days is that police chiefs should feel that they have and to help lead a more effective international response the political backing to make the necessary changes to to the fundamental causes of this instability. meet new threats. “Don’t be stuck in the old ways of doing things if they are not working”—that will be one As of this morning, after heavy losses yesterday, of the real lessons that we learn in the coming days. markets in Asia and Europe are a little calmer, although some are still down. Over the past month, the Dow Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): Will the Jones index has fallen by more than 14%, the French Prime Minister consider the suggestion that anyone market by 23% and the Nikkei by 11%, and it is striking who is convicted of rioting and who is not a UK citizen that the German market has fallen by 24%. Even Chinese should be deported immediately and barred for life equities have fallen by 20% since November. Bank from returning to this country? shares in all countries have been hit particularly hard. Many sovereign bond markets have also been exceptionally volatile, with market rates for Italian and Spanish debts The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good soaring before falling back in the past three days. point. There are now much better mechanisms to ensure that people who enter the criminal justice system and Sadly, Britain is not immune to these market movements. who do not have a right to be here are removed more In the past month, the FTSE 100 has fallen by 16% and quickly. British bank shares have been hit hard. However, while our stock market has fallen like others, there has been Mr Speaker: I thank the Prime Minister for his one striking difference from many of our European commitment to the House over the past 165 minutes, neighbours: the market for our Government bonds has and I thank all 160 colleagues, including the Leader of benefited from the global flight to safety. UK gilt yields the Opposition, who have questioned him. have come down to about 2.5%—the lowest interest rates in more than 100 years. Earlier this week, the UK’s credit default swap spread, or the price of insuring against a sovereign default, was lower than Germany’s. That is a huge vote of confidence in the credibility of British Government debt and a major source of stability for the British economy at a time of exceptional instability. It is a reminder of the reckless folly of those who said that we were going too far, too fast. We can all now see that their approach would have been too little, too late, with disastrous consequences for Britain. It is not hard to identify the recent events that have triggered the latest market falls. There have been weak economic data from the US, including revisions to GDP figures, and the historic downgrade of that country’s credit rating. The crisis of confidence in the ability of eurozone countries to pay their debts has spread, as many feared, from the periphery to major economies such as Italy and Spain. Those events did not come out of the blue and they all have the same root cause—debt. In particular, there is a massive overhang of debt from a decade-long boom, when economic growth was based on unsustainable household borrowing, unrealistic house prices, dangerously high banking leverage and a failure of Governments to put their public finances in order. Unfortunately, the UK was perhaps the most eager participant in that boom, with the most indebted households, the biggest housing bubble, the most over- leveraged banks and the largest budget deficit of them all. History teaches us that recoveries from such debt-driven, balance-sheet recessions will always be choppy and difficult, and we warned that that would be the case. The whole world now realises that the huge overhang of debt means that the recovery will take longer and be harder than had been hoped. Markets are waking up to that fact. That is what makes this the most dangerous time for the global economy since 2008. We should be 1107 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1108 realistic about that and set our expectations accordingly. However, that can only ever be a bridge to a permanent As the Governor of the Bank of England said yesterday solution. I have said many times before that the eurozone and as the head of the Office for Budget Responsibility countries need to accept the remorseless logic of monetary has noted, the British economy is expected to continue union that leads from a single currency to greater fiscal to grow this year. Some 500,000 new private sector jobs integration. Many people made exactly that argument have been created in the past 12 months. That is the more than a decade ago as a reason for Britain staying second highest rate of net job creation in the G7. out of the single currency, and thank God we did. However, instability across the world and in our main Solutions such as eurobonds and other forms of guarantees export markets means that, in common with many now require serious consideration. That must be matched countries, the expectations for this year’s growth have by much more effective economic governance in the fallen. eurozone to ensure fiscal responsibility is hard-wired This is what our response must be. First, we must into the system. continue to put our own house in order. I spoke again to The break-up of the euro would be economically Mervyn King yesterday and I confirm that the assessment disastrous, including for Britain, so we should accept of the Bank, the Financial Services Authority and the the need for greater fiscal integration in the eurozone, Treasury is that British banks are sufficiently well capitalised while ensuring we are not part of it and that our national and are holding enough liquidity to cope with the interests are protected. That is the message the Prime current market turbulence. We have in place well developed Minister has communicated clearly in his calls with and well rehearsed contingency plans. We must also Chancellor Merkel, President Sarkozy and others this week. continue to implement the fiscal consolidation plans I have done likewise with individual Finance Ministers, that have brought stability to our bond markets. in ECOFIN and in the G7 call at the weekend, and will do so again at the September ECOFIN and G7 meetings. I believe that the events around the world completely vindicate the decision of this coalition Government This is a global as well as a European crisis. At this from the day we took office to get ahead of the curve autumn’s meetings of the IMF and the G20 we need far and deal with this country’s record deficit. While other greater progress on global imbalances. We need an countries wrestled with paralysed political systems, our international framework that allows creditor countries coalition Government united behind the swift and decisive such as China to increase demand and debtor countries action of in-year cuts and the emergency Budget. While to make the difficult adjustments necessary to repay other countries struggled to command confidence in them. Everyone knows what needs to be done, but their fiscal forecasts, we created the internationally admired progress so far has been frustratingly slow, with lengthy and respected independent Office for Budget Responsibility. disagreements on technical definitions, let alone any Those bold steps have made Britain a safe haven in this concrete actions. The barriers are political not economic, sovereign debt storm. Our market interest rates have so it is up to the world’s politicians to overcome them. fallen while those of other countries have soared. The There are no excuses left. very same rating agency that downgraded the United The UK, like the rest of the developed world, needs a States has taken Britain off the negative watch that we new model of growth. Surely we have learned now that inherited and reaffirmed our triple A status. That market growth cannot come from yet more debt and more credibility is not some abstract concept; it saves jobs Government spending. Those who spent the whole of and keeps families in their homes. Families are benefiting the past year telling us to follow the American example, from the lowest ever mortgage rates and companies are with yet more fiscal stimulus, need to answer this simple able to borrow and refinance at historically low rates question: why has the US economy grown more slowly thanks to the decisions that we have taken. than the UK economy so far this year? More spending now, paid for by more Government borrowing and Let me make it clear not only to the House of higher debt, would lead directly to rising interest rates Commons but to the whole world that ours is an and falling international confidence, which would kill absolutely unwavering commitment to fiscal responsibility off the recovery, not support it. and deficit reduction. Abandoning that commitment would plunge Britain into the financial whirlpool of a Instead we must work hard to have a private sector sovereign debt crisis and cost many thousands of jobs. that competes, invests and exports. In today’s world, We will not make that mistake. that is the only route to high-quality jobs and lasting prosperity. In the developed countries, especially in Secondly, we need to continue to lead the international Europe, that means making the difficult structural reforms response in Europe and beyond. In the G7 statement needed to restore competitiveness and improve the agreed between Finance Ministers and central bank underlying performance of our economies. The EU governors this week, we said that we would should cut red tape, not add to it. Internationally, we “take all necessary measures to support financial stability and have the greatest stimulus of all on the table in the form growth”. of the Doha round—a renewed commitment to free In the eurozone, there is a growing acceptance of what trade across the world, which should be taken up now. the UK Government have been saying, first in private Here in Britain, the Plan for Growth that we announced and now in public, for the last year—it too needs to get in the Budget set out an ambitious path—23 measures ahead of the curve. Individual countries must deal with have already been implemented and another 80 are their deficits, make their economies more competitive being implemented now. On controversial issues, such and strengthen their banking systems. Existing eurozone as planning reform, we will overcome the opposition institutions need to do whatever is necessary to maintain that stands in the way of prosperity. On tax, we have stability. We welcome the interventions of the European already cut our corporation tax by 2p, with three more Central Bank this week through its securities markets cuts to come in the next three years. We will continue to programme to do just that. pursue a radical agenda in welfare and education reform. 1109 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1110

[Mr George Osborne] that are best solved by individual countries taking their own actions to get debt down—on his analysis, the However, there is much more we can and must do if faster, the better. But the growth crisis is now global. we are to create a new model of sustainable growth. All Does the Chancellor agree that the coming together of us in the House must rise to that challenge in the of powerful negative forces in every continent, and months ahead and confront the vested interests—the including in Britain—continued deleveraging by banks forces of stagnation that stand in the way of growth. and the private sector, drastic tightening of consumer In these turbulent times for world markets, we will spending and fiscal retrenchment from Governments—now continue to lead the international response. We will means that some commentators warn that the crisis redouble our efforts to remove the obstacles to growth could become as grave as that of the early 1930s, when and stick to our plan, which has made Britain a safe Governments around the world ignored their collective haven in the global debt storm. I commend the statement responsibility to promote growth, ploughed on with to the House. austerity and retrenchment and ushered in a decade of depression, unemployment, protectionism and political Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): The instability? Here in Britain, families and businesses, shocking and inexcusable events of recent days in our deeply worried about their jobs and mortgages, will cities are today rightly the Government’s first and immediate hear the Chancellor’s talk of safe havens and conclude priority. However, looking ahead, the global economic that he is either deeply complacent or in complete events of recent days are an equal and perhaps even denial about what is happening in our country. graver threat to our stability and cohesion, putting small businesses, jobs and mortgages at risk throughout Since the Chancellor’s economic policies have started our country. It is therefore right that the Chancellor is to kick in, well before the latest bout of financial today updating the House and the country on the market instability, confidence has collapsed and our parlous state of the global economy and, I am afraid to economy has flatlined for nine months, growing slower say, the parlous state of the British economy. than that of the US and the eurozone. On the latest OBR figures, before growth forecasts—which the Chancellor In the same spirit of bipartisan co-operation that we today confirmed—were to be downgraded yet again, have just seen from the Prime Minister and the Leader the borrowing forecast was £46 billion higher than the of the Opposition, let me set out where Opposition Chancellor planned. Members agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer as well as where we have grave concerns. First, the We need a tough, medium-term plan to get our Chancellor is right: we made the right decision not to deficit down, but it is the Chancellor’s reckless— join the single currency in 2003. We agree with him that [Interruption.] the crisis in the eurozone requires more decisive and Mr Speaker: Order. The House must come to order. I radical action than we have seen so far. I welcome the repeat what I have said many times: if Members shout fact that he is now, at last, involving himself in those their heads off, then expect to be called, they are suffering discussions, and preparing contingency plans if British from an element of self-delusion. banks come under threat. Tough fiscal decisions in Europe are vital, but is it not Ed Balls: The Chancellor’s reckless policies—too far, clear that the approach of European leaders so far— too fast—have ripped out the house’s foundation and demanding ever more austerity from smaller countries—is left our economy deeply exposed to the brewing global not working because it does nothing to get those economies hurricane. Yet, despite all the evidence and with our growing? Without that, countries find it harder and stock market falling 10% or more this week, the Chancellor harder to convince the markets that they can repay their still claims that his policies are working and that we are debts. Should not the Chancellor finally take a lead in a safe haven. Despite the evidence of the past two years brokering a plan in Europe for growth, alongside from credit default swaps and the fact that, in the past European-wide guarantees to reduce debt service costs, week, long-term interest rates have fallen in Britain and and stop the contagion? in the US, he still claims that falling UK long-term I also agree with the Chancellor that months of bond yields are a sign of enhanced credibility and not political wrangling and uncertainty in the US about the of stagnant growth in our economy.Does he not remember pace of deficit reduction have depressed confidence and that the Japanese Ministry of Finance briefly took US growth. However, does the Chancellor agree with some comfort from low and falling bond yields in the those wise heads who favour a balanced and sensible early 1990s, at the beginning of a lost decade of no approach to deficit reduction, and fear that rapid US growth and stagnation? However many times he says retrenchment could drive the world back into recession? that his plan is working, that does not make it true. Or does he agree with his friends—we know he has However, many times he claims that he has restored many in the Republican party and in the Tea party confidence or delivered on deficit reduction, that does movement—who have urged deeper and faster cuts, and not make it true. hailed the recent budget deal as delivering 98% of their We know that the Chancellor has spent the past demands? Is the Chancellor on the side of the Federal fortnight in Hollywood, but he cannot just write the Reserve, former Treasury Secretaries and Nobel prize script and watch it come to life. That is not how things winners, or on that of, in the words of the Business work in the real world. If he will not take it from me, Secretary, “right wing nutters”? perhaps he should hear the words of Paul Krugman, It is also right that G7 finance Ministers are finally the Nobel prize winner, who said: discussing a co-ordinated response to a global crisis. “Britain’s experiment in austerity is going really, really badly. However, listening to the Chancellor’s analysis, one But the Chancellor of the Exchequer is finding solace in… would think that Britain was a bystander, watching fantasy… the wolf is at the door and Osborne thinks it’s the public debt crises unfold in the eurozone and America confidence fairy.” 1111 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1112

The Chancellor finds the state of the British economy deficit reduction plan that he promised? The shadow reassuring; we find it deeply worrying. He rejects our Chancellor is now almost alone in the world in making call for action now, including a temporary VAT cut, and the argument that he makes. He talks about international vows to plough on regardless. We say that this approach leadership, but if he turned up at the G7, the IMF, the is deeply incautious and reckless. The eurozone is in G20 or ECOFIN with his plans to borrow more and crisis. America is in political paralysis. The British increase our deficit, he would be laughed out of that economy is flatlining. Global markets are in turmoil. meeting. He is completely irrelevant to where the The world desperately needs strong and united leadership. international debate has gone. I am afraid that he is Here in Britain, we need our Chancellor to get out of living proof of why the public will never again trust the his complacent denial and get back to reality before it is Labour party with their money. too late. Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Does the Mr Osborne: I did meet Mickey Mouse in California, Chancellor agree that the collapse in the credibility of and he seems to be writing the Labour party’s economic the eurozone is a warning to any Government who policy at the moment. flinch on dealing with the deficit? Is that not why he is Let me start with the areas where we agree. We agree quite right to stick to the commitments that he made a that it is right for Britain not to join the euro—perhaps year ago to put the country on a course to greater the shadow Chancellor will change the official policy of stability? Does he not also agree, however, that the the Labour party in that respect. On the contingency credibility of economic policy in the long run will plans of the financial system, I would be very happy to depend on a fully developed strategy for improving the offer him a briefing from the tripartite authorities on supply side of the economy? He talked a bit about that those contingency plans. Obviously, they have to remain at the end of his statement. Can he say a bit more, and confidential, as he will understand, but I am very happy say whether he intends to publish a fully worked up to give him that briefing. improvement to the strategy for growth that he put forward at the time of the last Budget? On what the shadow Chancellor says about European countries being forced to reduce their deficits, I would Mr Osborne: I completely agree with what the Chair ask him this question. Who is supposed to be lending of the Treasury Committee says about the credibility of those European countries the money that he talks about, the deficit reduction plan and how disastrous it would in this imaginary world where they are not taking be in the current environment to weaken that plan. We action to reduce their deficits? He voted against the would—within hours, I think—find ourselves sucked decisions that we took to increase the resources of the into the global debt whirlpool from which other countries IMF, and now he turns round and thinks that there is are struggling to get out. I also agree with him that we some magical body or some investors out there who are need to do more to improve the supply side of our going to lend money to European countries that do not economy. That is hard work for Governments, and it have credible deficit plans. It is completely for the means taking on difficult vested interests. We have seen fairies, as he puts it. the argument in the last few days about planning controls, Let me talk about the US debate, which the right hon. where we are trying to make it easier to have economic Gentleman mentioned. He talked about deficit reduction development, and there are plenty of groups that pop in America and asked where I stand on the measured up and oppose that. That is an example of some of the pace argument. Actually, I agree with the plan that battles that we will have to have and win. I can confirm President Obama set out at George Washington university. that we will be producing the second phase of our plan [Interruption.] Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition for growth at the time of the autumn forecast. does not know what is going on in America at the moment, but actually, the President of the United States David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): I would be has set out a deficit reduction plan that is at the same grateful if the Chancellor could confirm private sector pace and on the same scale as the one that we are estimates that I have seen that a 0.4% downgrade of the pursuing in Britain. That is what the President has set growth forecasts for the next four years means that it out; it is his offer in the debate. Indeed, the composition will be impossible for him to hit his fiscal target of of tax increases and spending reductions that he has put turning the debt-to-GDP ratio down by the end of this forward is the same as the spending consolidation that Parliament. we announced last year, and is based on some of the ideas put forward by the bipartisan Bowles-Simpson Mr Osborne: The most recent independent analysis commission, which we spoke to after the event. It said of the British economy was done by the IMF this that it looked to the UK for inspiration for some of its month. It made an assessment using lower growth ideas. forecasts, and came to the conclusion that we will hit The shadow Chancellor says that there is a global both our fiscal mandate and our target for reducing economic crisis. He is right about that, and we agree, debt, which the IMF made clear in its article IV assessment. but it is caused by an enormous debt overhang. That is I cannot help but note that if the right hon. Gentleman what all serious economists are saying at the moment. had given the leader’s speech that he had written, the He is also right when he says that the Labour party Labour party would be in a much more credible place needs a tough deficit reduction plan. I agree with him than it is today. about that. Where is this tough deficit reduction plan? We have just spent two and a half hours listening to Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): As the wolves circle Labour MP after Labour MP getting up and complaining country after country, are this coalition Government about spending cuts and the deficit reduction plan—they not vindicated? They were absolutely right to come are all nodding their heads—but where is the tough together with a robust strategy to bring our public 1113 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1114

[Malcolm Bruce] Mr George Osborne: Both the hon. Gentleman and I represent constituencies in the north-west of England, finances into balance over the lifetime of this Parliament, and the striking fact about the RDAs is that during while the Labour party lacks credibility. If there is one their period of existence regional disparities grew. They area where we can ensure that that is done in a fair and did not work in the way that they were supposed to equal way which puts the lower and middle-income work. Because local enterprise partnerships involve groups in the driving seat of recovery, it is the accelerated businesses and are on much more practical boundaries, process of increasing the tax threshold, and reducing they will help to deliver that local growth. However, if taxes on those people is the best way to do that. he thinks that all the world’s problems are caused by the fact that we got rid of the RDAs, he is exaggerating his Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely case. right that we are taking more than 1 million low-paid people out of tax altogether, implementing the policy Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The Chancellor will that the Liberal Democrats put forward at the general know that our trade balance between 2002 and 2009-10 election. I also agree that what he describes is a vindication with the other 26 member states has gone up from not just of the economic decisions we took, but of the minus £14 billion to minus £53 billion in one year? Does political decisions we took. Let us reflect on the fact he not agree that even Edward Heath would have repudiated that a year ago we had a hung Parliament—the first and vetoed a fiscal union with a hard-core Europe with time since the 1970s—and we formed a coalition such an incredible trade deficit against us? The coalition Government. That was a difficult decision for both agreement, according to the latest answer I got from the political parties involved, but given the political weakness Prime Minister, determines our relationship with the in some other countries, which is driving a lot of the European Union. Does the Chancellor disagree with market concern about those countries, the political the Deputy Prime Minister, because we must have radical strength of the Government in Britain is a tribute to renegotiation of the treaties and the repatriation of both those political parties, which set aside their political powers so that we can achieve growth for all our businesses? differences and came together in the national interest. Mr Speaker: I enjoy listening to the hon. Gentleman’s Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): words so much that it is in my interest, Parliament’s Will the Chancellor—who persists in this bewildering interest and the national interest that they should be implausibility that his plan is working—please tell the suitably rationed. House by how much this financial year he will fall short of his target for deficit reduction? Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend and I will have to agree to disagree on this issue. The remorseless logic of monetary Mr Osborne: The important difference between the union leads towards fiscal union, and that was one of hon. Gentleman’s time in the Treasury and my time in the reasons that I opposed joining the single currency. the Treasury now is that we have the independent Office However, it is now in our interests to allow that to for Budget Responsibility making those announcements. happen more in the eurozone, because it is in our It is not the Chancellor who makes those announcements absolute national economic interest that the eurozone is at the Dispatch Box, for the very simple reason that more stable. It is clear that that means that they need to by the end of the last Government, those Treasury have more fiscal powers to reduce instability. That means, pronouncements were so discredited that they were of course, that Britain must fight hard to ensure that its believed by absolutely no one. One of the important interests are represented and that we are not part of this early decisions that we took to restore credibility in fiscal integration. Important decisions, such as on financial British public finances was the creation of the independent services, must continue to be taken at the level of 27. He OBR, which makes those announcements. talks about treaty changes and so on, but the prospect of a major treaty change to bring about eurozone fiscal Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): Will integration is not imminent, although I imagine that the Chancellor tell the House whether the UK economy there will be a lively debate if and when it comes about. is growing faster than the US economy this year, and if so, why? Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): The number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance in my constituency Mr Osborne: In the first two quarters of this year the has gone up massively, with hard-working people with UK has grown more strongly than the United States, good work records unable to find jobs. Why will not the but that is not a source of comfort for the world, Chancellor look seriously at areas such as mine, do because we need a strong US economy as well, and we more and take some measures—such as reducing VAT—to want to help to bring about the international framework put money into the hands of ordinary people? that will enable that to happen. Mr Osborne: We have announced an enterprise zone Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): Is it for Sheffield and we will have further announcements to not revealing that it took to the end of page 5 of his make on enterprise zones in the coming weeks. The speech for the Chancellor even stutteringly to mention evidence of the past 10 years is that in important the word “growth”? Will he now reflect on the fact that regions of our country—I have in mind the statistics for it is his reckless abolition of regional development the west midlands, rather than the hon. Lady’s constituency agencies and his failure to put money into the local —private sector employment fell over the decade before enterprise partnerships that were supposed to solve the the financial crash. That shows that that model of problem that have left the English regions stagnant in growth we pursued, based on the biggest housing boom growth over the past nine months? of any country—with the possible exception of Ireland—the 1115 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1116 most over-leveraged banks and the highest budget deficit, Mr Osborne: The challenge that we and many developed ultimately led to ruin. We need a different model of countries face is that banks are shrinking their balance growth in which we grow the private sector in areas such sheets, because they got too big and they lent too much as Sheffield and get real, lasting jobs, rather than assuming money. They are also hoarding capital because of the that we can just use Government spending to create current market turbulence. What we are trying to do as them. a Government is to ensure that, in that process, lending to small and medium businesses is protected and indeed Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): As someone increased. We signed the Merlin agreement with the who believes that we need to get the deficit down and do banks at the beginning of the year to see an increase of more to assist growth to help that, will the Chancellor 15% in small business lending. The Bank of England look at the dreadful losses at RBS and the big hit on will publish the figures tomorrow, so I cannot give them capital values on its shares, and see what more can be today, but the banks have already indicated that they done to manage that colossal pool of assets in the are on track to meet that 15% increase in small business interests of economic growth and the taxpayer? lending over this year and I am confident that the figures tomorrow will show that that is the case. Mr Osborne: We of course continue to monitor the situation at RBS and all the British banks very closely. Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The June 2010 There is a concern in the financial markets about the Budget described the deficit reduction plan as adding capitalisation and liquidity provisions of banks in many £8 billion of tax rises a year from 2014-15 and £32 billion countries. I have to say that those concerns have not of cuts from 2014-15 every year on top of the £73 billion been expressed at the moment about the UK. We passed or so fiscal consolidation that Labour had in mind. It the stress tests well and we have a strong liquidity also forecast growth from this year of 2.3%, 2.8%, 2.9%, provision in place for the banks, including RBS, and the 2.7% and 2.7%. Those growth figures are now shredded. markets can therefore have confidence in British banks. What will the Chancellor do? Will he increase taxes or cut public spending further, or did he mean by saying Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) that we had to adjust our expectations accordingly that (Lab): Is it not clear that the Chancellor’s whole strategy he would change his deficit reduction target? is failing, as it is now almost entirely dependent on achieving growth? As the economy has been flatlining Mr Osborne: We are not proposing for a second to for nine months, export markets are stymied, quantitative change our deficit reduction target. The target is a easing has already been tried with little or no effect and structural budget deficit target and was deliberately set interest rates are already flat on the ground. Where as such. The reason we set out those plans in the exactly does he expect the growth to come from to get emergency Budget and went beyond the previous us out of prolonged stagnation? Government’s mantra of halving the budget deficit in four years—not that they had actually written in the Mr Osborne: As I have said, the British economy is proposals to do that—was because on the day we came growing and it is the assessment of the Bank of England into office our country’s credit rating was on a negative and the Office for Budget Responsibility that it will outlook for a downgrade. Our market interest rates continue to grow. The growth in the last six months has were tracking Spain’s and everyone from the Governor actually been stronger than in the United States, and of the Bank of England to the IMF and the CBI was half a million jobs have been created in the private saying that the previous Government’s budget deficit sector in the last year— plan was not credible. If we had stuck with that plan and even filled in the blank spaces, we would now be Ed Balls: In the last nine months? part of the sovereign debt crisis whirlwind that is engulfing other countries. Mr Osborne: In the past 12 months. So that is all good news. Where does the right hon. Member for Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): Before there is Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) expect the any further attempt to rewrite history, can the Chancellor money to come from for additional Government borrowing? confirm again that until last year’s emergency Budget Who in the world would lend to a country that abandoned and spending plan this country’s triple A rating was on its deficit reduction plan at a time like this, especially a negative outlook and was only restored to stable through country such as Britain which, unfortunately, has the the measures he took last year? Is not the real lesson of highest budget deficit in the G20? the United States that any country that goes off its fiscal deficit reduction plan can suffer a downgrade, Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD): with all the damage to jobs and prosperity that that Given that we are all still hearing that the banks are not entails? making sufficient funds available to small and medium private enterprises in our constituencies and that that is Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In the fulcrum on which the Government’s strategy has January last year the largest bond investor in the world been based to make up the deficit from the loss of jobs said that UK gilts in the public sector as a result of the strategy being pursued, and that we now have a downward estimate “are resting on a bed of nitroglycerine.” for growth, what did the Business Secretary mean when Today I could read out a whole string of comments he said that we would have to find more imaginative from market participants saying that the UK has been a ways of getting the money through? What did he mean safe haven in this sovereign debt crisis because of the by that and does the Chancellor agree? decisions that we took. 1117 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1118

[Mr George Osborne] Mr Osborne: We abandoned the Bretton Woods arrangements in the early 1970s, so it has been a while Standard & Poor’s, the rating agency that has just since we have operated under those international downgraded the United States, took the United Kingdom arrangements. Let me, however, make a few observations, off “negative outlook” and reaffirmed our triple A because the hon. Gentleman has made a serious point credit rating. The practical consequence of that is much about the eurozone. lower interest rates. If we pursued the policy proposed I think that it would be disastrous for Britain’s economy by the Opposition of more spending and more debt, the if the eurozone were to break up, and I think that it immediate response would be higher interest rates which would also be disastrous for the economies of the would kill off any recovery. That is why such a policy is eurozone themselves. It would lead immediately to a economic madness. balance of payments crisis in many European countries. That is why it is in our interests for the eurozone to Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Given poor work. Some of us questioned whether it was right to go and worsening United Kingdom growth, at what point ahead with it 15 years ago—we certainly did not want will the Chancellor advocate further quantitative easing? Britain to be part of it—but it exists now, and, as I have If he will not answer that question, will he tell us said before, “I told you so” is not an economic policy whether he believes that there is no chance that rapidly for today. rising sterling will hurt our exports? I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we need better international arrangements to monitor and deal with Mr Osborne: Both those matters are properly for the global imbalances. For instance, there are currently Bank of England. It is for the Governor to comment on huge creditor countries such as China, and big debtor the value of sterling, if he chooses to do so. As for countries such as the United Kingdom and the United quantitative easing, the arrangements agreed by the last States. I am afraid that progress on that at the G20 and Government, which I have retained, remain in place. If the International Monetary Fund is painfully slow. At the Monetary Policy Committee makes a serious request, some of the meetings, it has not even been possible to of course we will consider it seriously, but we have agree on the definitions. I hope that, if there is a silver received no such request. lining to the present black cloud of the financial market crisis, we will see at the autumn meetings of the various Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Moneyfacts institutions much more progress towards the arrangements reported yesterday that the low cost of borrowing in the that I think everyone accepts should be in place. United Kingdom means that, on average, five-year fixed- term mortgages are now £1,400 cheaper than they were Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I congratulate two years ago. That is very welcome news for my the Chancellor on the deficit reduction programme that hard-working but squeezed constituents. Will the Chancellor has secured the United Kingdom’s triple A rating, but confirm that he will continue his policies, which will can he tell us what analysis he has made of the rising deliver the low interest rates that are so important to price of gold, and how much better off the UK economy families and businesses across the country? would be if the last Government had not sold off our gold in the same way? Mr Osborne: Absolutely. I think that interest rates are often the missing part of the debate in the Chamber. Mr Osborne: I expected that that question might It is simply economically impossible at the moment for arise, as it often does at Treasury events. As people will the Opposition to have more spending, more debt, and have seen, the price of gold has hit a record high of low interest rates. Those things do not square in the $1,800. It was $300 when the shadow Chancellor sold current global economic environment. The automatic, our gold stocks. As a result of that action, this country immediate response from the market, and quite possibly has lost £12 billion. from the Monetary Policy Committee, would be an increase in interest rates if the Opposition abandoned Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): The House our fiscal plans. We would have higher interest rates will have noted that the Chancellor did not mention the that would kill off any recovery. fact that inflation is approaching 5%, the fact that that our borrowing is £46 billion higher than his figure, or Several hon. Members rose— the fact that consumer and business confidence is falling. He did mention his growth plan, but there is no growth. Mr Speaker: Order. I appeal to colleagues to ask When will he accept the paradox that the sharper and single, short supplementary questions without preamble, deeper the cuts, the less growth there will be? so that we can maximise the number of contributors. Mr Osborne: The question that I would ask the hon. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The frightening Gentleman is this: who in the world does he expect to be instability of the world economy has arisen since, and lending money to countries with very high budget deficits as a result of, the abandoning of the post-war arrangements if they do not have credible deficit reduction plans? decided at Bretton Woods, and the liberalisation and What group of people would put their money on the globalisation of finance capital. Part of that arrangement line? That is precisely the problem that we have at the was that each country had its own currency and managed moment in the global financial markets. its own economy within international rules. Would it The hon. Gentleman asked about inflation. Yesterday, not be sensible to move back in that direction by at his press conference, the Governor of the Bank of establishing national currencies within the eurozone England said that he expected it to hit 5% this year. Let and starting again where we left off? me draw attention to another silver lining to the dark 1119 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1120 clouds. Commodity prices have fallen in the last few We have also introduced support for the exports of weeks, and the oil price has fallen somewhat from its small business. A central part of the strategy developed high. One of the biggest challenges that all developed by Stephen Green as trade Minister is helping small and, indeed, developing countries have faced in the last businesses to export. I have already mentioned the year or so has been the very big increase in the oil price. Merlin lending agreements with banks, which are beginning to bring about an increase in lending to businesses that Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): I welcome simply was not happening last year. the Chancellor’s comments about the need to cut deficits. Let me also remind him that a healthier market is Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): In view of important to our export performance, and that growth the flatlining economy, and given that inflation is set to requires buyers and sellers to have the confidence to hit 5%, the spectre of stagflation looms large. Can the transact. Will he therefore, while steering the economy, Chancellor tell us why he is so wedded to crackpot Tea remember that the need to instil demand in the British Party economics when it is plainly failing the country? economy is very important to households and businesses? May I ask him not to lose sight of that? Mr Osborne: It sounds like the shadow Chancellor wrote that question. Let me repeat what I said earlier: Mr Osborne: Of course I agree that we need demand. the proposal Barack Obama put forward in his speech I think that demand comes partly from confidence, and at The George Washington university is for a deficit that confidence comes from economic stability. If we reduction in the United States of the same pace and think of the difference between the statement that I scale as the one we are pursuing in Britain. That is have been able to make today in the House of Commons because in America, too, they understand that they and the emergency statements and emergency budget have to deal with their budget deficit. cuts that many Finance Ministers have had to announce in the last two weeks, we have, in a nutshell, the reason Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Europe is making why we made the right decisions last year to get ahead increasing demands on our pension pots and our benefit of the curve, and why so many other countries are now pots and, indeed, it recently made a demand on our trying to catch up. VAT. Is it not time that we had a debate on how much we pay towards Europe? The Chancellor says it would Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Can the Chancellor be economically disastrous if it broke up, but there explain how relaxing planning control will stimulate the should be a debate. Some 75,000 people have signed a economy when offices, houses and shops are already Daily Express petition asking for a debate on this, so standing empty in my constituency? surely there should be an autumn debate? Mr Osborne: Of course we need to fill vacant properties, Mr Osborne: We do debate the European budget in but we also need to allow new development. I think that this Parliament, and they are often quite lively debates. we all want to protect areas of outstanding natural We are fighting hard for a real-terms freeze in the beauty in our country, and I have a constituency in the European budget not just for next year but for the green belt, but planning decisions in this country are so coming new financial perspective from 2014, and we have lengthy, so bureaucratic and so costly that almost every enlisted a number of allies. There is now an understanding study of the British economy that has been commissioned across Europe that, with very tough public expenditure in the last decade has identified planning as an obstacle decisions at home in every European country, we also to further economic development. I think that we need need to get control of the European budget. to simplify those planning controls so that we can—yes— protect the countryside, but also secure decisions in Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The momentum reasonable time that allow development to take place. for growth in the UK economy has clearly now run out, That is why we have introduced the presumption of and I am glad that the Chancellor will make announcements sustainable development into the planning system. on growth in the autumn. As he plans for them, will he take account of the International Monetary Fund’s Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): What view that if there is the prospect of a lengthy period of further help can the Chancellor give small businesses, weak growth ahead, he should be willing to consider 4.5 million of which employ fewer than five people? If a temporary tax cuts? quarter of them employed an extra person, that would make a huge dent in the unemployment register. Mr Osborne: Of course we bear in mind advice from the IMF and others, but it makes it clear that that is not Mr Osborne: Small businesses are, of course, the its central view at the moment. It asked itself a specific engine of job creation in our country. As I have said, question, and it says this: 500,000 new jobs have been created in the private sector “The weakness in growth and rise in inflation raises the question over the last year. That is the second highest rate of job whether it is time to adjust macroeconomic policies. The answer is creation in the G7. As for specific help for small businesses, no…Strong fiscal consolidation is underway and remains essential”. we avoided the increase in small business taxation that That is what the IMF says in its article IV report into the Labour party included in its last Budget. the United Kingdom published on 1 August this year.

Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op) indicated Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Recently, the UK has dissent. been the highest per capita exporter of services in the world, and that is vital for future growth. What action Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. are the Government taking to ensure that we can continue He obviously did not know that there was to be an to compete globally in services on a level playing field, increase in small business taxation. We have cut it. and particularly in the European Union? 1121 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1122

Mr Osborne: First, while not all the recent economic who, seemingly at a whim, can cause disasters to be data have been encouraging, the services index for the visited on small and vulnerable economies, increase United Kingdom in the last couple of weeks was the interest rates, and lead to public spending cuts and strongest in Europe, which gives us some cause for devastation to many poor people’s lives? Does he not optimism in that sector. I agree that we want to maintain think it is time that these rating agencies are brought our competitiveness, and that we want to export more under some kind of accountable control? to Europe. I think Europe’s agenda should be much more about completing the single market and implementing Mr Osborne: It might surprise the hon. Gentleman to measures like the services directive, which has merely learn that I agree with at least part of what he says: we sat on the “Too Difficult to Handle” shelf for far too do have concerns about how the credit rating agencies long. That is the agenda that we need to get the European have operated. That is why we have been part of the Union focused on. European discussions to get some European rules on credit rating agencies put in place, and I think they are Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Last week I visited the appropriate. I disagree with the hon. Gentleman, however, Dividers Modernfold factory in my constituency. In on blaming all of what is happening on credit rating common with many other construction products companies agencies. However imperfect they might be, credit rating throughout the country, it is very worried about the agencies are trying to give market investors some idea of prospects for immediate economic growth, particularly the credit worthiness of countries and companies. The in light of public procurement cuts. What precisely is truth is that they have not led to the spending cuts. The the Chancellor going to do in the very near future to reason why we have had to undertake spending cuts is stimulate demand and growth, so we can create and that this country is currently spending close to 50% of safeguard jobs in the private sector? We do not want to GDP on public expenditure, which is far higher than be fobbed off with the sorts of answers he has just given the historical average under Conservative and Labour to my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West Governments. That is why we are having to act. We are and Royton (Mr Meacher) and the Chancellor’s party doing so because we have a record budget deficit—the colleague, the hon. Member for Northampton South highest in our peacetime history and the highest in the (Mr Binley). G20. Mr Osborne: In the spending review, we set higher Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): The Chancellor capital budgets than those set out by my predecessor, referred to Merlin and the agreement with the banks, the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the last Labour but is he aware that these banks are double-counting Government. Therefore, capital spending budgets are their lending by forcing businesses to convert overdrafts higher than they would have been under the plan the into long-term loans? A business in my constituency hon. Lady stood on in the last election. wants to expand. It has full order books and wants to On getting the construction sector moving, that is take on more staff, but it cannot do so because not only precisely why we are tackling issues, such as the planning are the banks not being helpful, but they are actually delays, that have been so difficult, and why we made a being obstructive. number of tax changes in the Budget to help the construction sector. The construction index was also Mr Osborne: I would be very happy to look at that positive in the last couple of weeks. I just say to the hon. specific constituency case. Let me look into the details Lady that when we are running the highest budget and get back to my hon. Friend with an answer, or meet deficit in the G20, it is not possible to abandon our him in person to discuss it. fiscal consolidation plans and to seek someone out there in the world to borrow more money from. That Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): The sluggish would lead to markedly higher interest rates—we need growth rate has led the Office for Budget Responsibility only look at the interest rates in Spain and Italy at to now forecast even higher unemployment. More jobs present—and we know that higher interest rates do are being lost in the economy than are being created. particular damage to the construction sector. The Government’s own policies are adding to that, Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I because they are putting new work obligations on to congratulate the Chancellor on sticking to his deficit people who have been out of the work force for some reduction plan, which has allowed us to keep our triple time. While it is absolutely right that the Government A rating, unlike some other countries, including the help people to find jobs, not all of them will do so. It is United States and possibly now France. If France were very wrong that people who are doing all they can to to lose its triple A rating, what would be the implications find work and still have not done so will find they are for the EU stability fund and the ability for eurozone facing the loss of their benefits. In light of the new bail-outs to continue in the future? growth figures, will the Chancellor speak to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, as the sanctions on Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend asks a good question, these people should be lifted? which is being asked in the markets at present. I have to say that one of the causes of the instability in the last Mr Osborne: First, if I might correct the hon. Lady, couple of weeks has been loose comments by Finance the OBR is not forecasting rising unemployment over Ministers on issues such as that which he raises, so I will the Parliament; it is forecasting falling unemployment “take the Fifth” and not comment. over the Parliament. I also remind her that half a million private sector jobs have been created over the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does the last year. Let me deal directly with her point about Chancellor of the Exchequer have any concerns about social security. The welfare system is a poverty trap that the unaccountable power of the credit rating agencies, is discouraging people from working. People on benefits 1123 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1124 face incredibly high marginal tax rates if they find Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): In terms of work. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of the stimulus to the British economy, what does the State for Work and Pensions is, with my full support, Chancellor think would be the effect of increased borrowing, seeking major reform of the welfare system, so we which would then have an impact on increased mortgage incentivise people off benefits and into work. That is rates for millions of people up and down the country? one of the most important reforms this Government What would be the aggregate impact, say, of a VAT cut? are undertaking. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right that there is a Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Give our country’s significant monetary stimulus in place through the very debts, it is reassuring to learn that the price for Government low market interest rates and of course the official rate. borrowing has fallen to the lowest levels since the last Both of those would go up, almost certainly in the case Liberal Government. How much more expensive would of the markets and probably in the case of the Monetary Government borrowing be for taxpayers and public Policy Committee, although it is independent, and that services if our interest rates had gone the same way as is why all this talk of more fiscal stimulus is a debate those in other parts of Europe? that is happening only in the Labour party of the United Kingdom, alone in the world. It is very difficult Mr Osborne: It would of course have been ruinous, to find an opposition anywhere in Europe arguing for not just for individuals but for the Government. One of less deficit reduction coming off the published plans the largest items of Government spending I inherited, of a Government. As I say, if the shadow Chancellor unfortunately, was debt interest. We are raising taxes in turned up at one of these meetings and put forward his order to pay our international creditors and that interest proposal, he would be laughed out of the meeting. is forecast to rise, sadly, over the Parliament, as we reduce the deficit. That is why it is so important to try to Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): get debt falling by the end of the Parliament. Of course, On a bipartisan basis, may I invite the Chancellor, as a any reduction in our gilts yields is good for the Government fellow Cheshire MP, to join me in sending our best and saves us money, too. wishes to the two Cheshire officers injured last evening? On the subject of the statement, 11% coming off the Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East stock market and massive hits to the values of British Cleveland) (Lab): Can the Chancellor explain why his companies will have a knock-on impact on many pensioners. own Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts £46 billion What is the Chancellor going to do about it? of more borrowing? Mr Osborne: Of course, stock market falls affect Mr Osborne: The Office for Budget Responsibility pension investments and other equity investments. Our makes its independent fiscal forecasts and, I think, one stock market has fallen—not as much as some, but it of the great policy developments of this Government has nevertheless fallen— has been the creation of that independent body, which will make its autumn forecasts in the usual way. Ed Balls: Why is that?

Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): The Chancellor Mr Osborne: It is because of the global lack of rightly mentioned the issues about the Doha round and confidence in Governments’ abilities to deal with their trade. Trade permeates every aspect of our Government’s deficits. We have not seen turbulence in our bond markets growth agenda. Will the Chancellor comment on whether precisely because we have in place a credible deficit he believes that the G20 appreciates how crucial releasing reduction plan. I note that I have been answering questions trade and ensuring greater free trade is at this moment for more than an hour and it has almost been an hour in the global economic cycle? since the shadow Chancellor said that the Labour party needed a credible deficit reduction plan, but has a single Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention Labour MP got up and proposed any component of to the Doha round. The significance of this is that it is that reduction plan? No, they have not. available for the countries of the world to seize—today, this month or next month—and implement. If one is David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I welcome my looking around the world for something that could, in right hon. Friend’s statement and the fact that over the very short order, increase global demand, it is sitting past year we have seen the private sector create four there in the Doha trade round. I hope that we make times more jobs than have been lost in the public sector. progress at the G20. I suspect we will certainly be a Does he agree that this is a better approach to job leading advocate of making progress and we have some creation than the overreliance on the public sector, good allies, for example in China, but I have to say that which was all too prevalent over the past decade in there remain considerable obstacles, not least in the regions such as the north-west under the previous Democrat and Republican parties in the United States. Administration?

Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): If it is Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. true that we are being used as a safe haven, why are we First, I should take the opportunity that I did not take not seeing significant growth in the value of sterling? in answer to the previous question—as my hon. Friend, too, is a Cheshire MP—of praising the work of the Mr Osborne: As I say, I have a simple policy not to Cheshire police, who have shown outstanding bravery comment, as previous Chancellors have also decided to over the past few days. My thoughts go out, as the hon. do, on the value of sterling. I do not propose to break Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) that commitment today. said, to the injured officers. 1125 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1126

[Mr George Osborne] their budgets and their family’s income—to ensure a stable economy, so that they can make sure that their My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Surely we have living standards are maintained in the long term? learned something from the past decade, which is that relying on an unsustainable housing boom, unsustainable Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right. What we are Government spending and unsustainable bank lending able to provide in the Government debt market is the is not a model of growth that this country can pursue stability that is sadly lacking in other Government debt again. We have to get off this country’s addiction to markets. All of us now need to rise to the challenge of debt, not just in the Government but in banks and removing the obstacles to growth; that will mean households. That is what we are doing and it is a confronting some vested interests, pressure groups and, difficult adjustment that many western economies are dare I say it, even, potentially, trade unions, but it is having to go through. Unfortunately for us, given that absolutely essential that this country wakes up to the we were the most enthusiastic participants in the debt competitive pressures of the modern world—the competitive boom, that adjustment is particularly difficult here in pressures that countries such as China and Brazil present the UK. to us—and gets the private sector growing in a way that will create the sustainable jobs that were so lacking in Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) the past 10 years. (PC): Does the Chancellor agree with the recommendations of the recent economic commission of the Conservative party in Wales that job creation levers should be devolved Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): to the Welsh Government? Does he agree that there is Last year, Government borrowing came in some £20 billion no need for another lengthy commission to come to that lower than was anticipated; this year, we learn that it sensible conclusion? will be some £46 billion higher than was forecast. Can the Chancellor give us an explanation? Mr Osborne: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are in active discussion with all the parties in Wales and Mr Osborne: As I have already explained, we have with the Welsh Assembly Government, discussing what an independent Office for Budget Responsibility— further powers might be devolved to the Welsh Assembly, [Interruption.] I am pretty tempted to say that the including fiscal powers that might have a role in economic answer is that the previous Chancellor did not want to development. I do not want to pre-empt that debate, have to downgrade his borrowing forecast four weeks but the fact that we have been prepared to engage in it before the general election, so he kitchen-sinked the shows that we are doing this in good faith. borrowing forecast a year before, to make sure that he was able to show a reduction just before the general Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Given the credibility election. that the coalition Government have won through their deficit reduction programme, securing a triple A rating and having low interest rates, does the Chancellor think Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I support that it would be appropriate to send a message to the Government’s plans for cutting the deficit, leading encourage the same kind of decision making—swift to lower interest rates and increased international confidence and strong—across the eurozone? in the UK economy, but the Chancellor is well aware that our economy is still fragile, so if tax revenues are Mr Osborne: I think we have got ahead of the curve. higher than expected, or if there are receipts from asset As I say, I am not one of those Finance Ministers who sales, will the Chancellor reinvest that in capital are having to come to their Parliaments and announce infrastructure projects and skills development, to give a emergency budget cuts because they did not get ahead boost to our economy and create jobs, rather than being of the curve. It is important for the eurozone countries, seduced by the voodoo economics of giving tax cuts to and all countries, to have fiscal credibility. There are the rich? many good examples in the eurozone of countries that have done that and we are part of that pack. Mr Osborne: There are quite a lot of American references in this debate. We have used the receipts of Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): I draw the some of the asset sales that we have proposed—and Chancellor’s attention to the unemployment rate in my indeed undertaken—to invest in new infrastructure, or constituency, where 24 people are chasing every vacancy. in a particular industry. Of course, we have to do that People in my constituency have learned lessons from on a case-by-case basis, but the spending review set out previous years: we learned from Mrs Thatcher that how we were going to use the proceeds of some of the mass unemployment is not a price worth paying. What asset sales for future investment. does the Chancellor intend to do to tackle unemployment in my constituency, which seems likely to rise? Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): The Chancellor Mr Osborne: I would make the observation that only failed to mention in his statement that the Bank of every Labour Government in history have left office England has now downgraded the growth forecast for with unemployment higher than when they came into this country five times since he took office. How does he office. reconcile that fact with his claim that Britain is a safe economic haven? Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Is not the best way to help the hard-pressed families, taxpayers, Mr Osborne: I reconcile it by quoting the Governor jobseekers and pensioners mentioned by Members in all of the Bank of England, given that the hon. Lady parts of the House—people who are not rioting, but mentions the Bank. [Interruption.] Labour appointed getting on with the business of trying to make savings in the Governor of the Bank of England; in fact, I suspect 1127 Global Economy11 AUGUST 2011 Global Economy 1128 that the shadow Chancellor made the appointment. Believe it or not, I am very familiar with the subject The Governor of the Bank of England said yesterday of Humber bridge tolls because my hon. Friend the that Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) is a “the UK has done what it can”, tireless campaigner on them. The Treasury is conducting in terms of putting the major conditions in place to an economic study of the effects of the tolls, and that ensure a rebalancing and a recovery. He went on: will report at some point in this Parliament. “We have a credible medium-term fiscal plan, which many Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I countries do not”. congratulate the Chancellor on recognising, although somewhat belatedly, that there is a link between what Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): happens in the global economy and what happens in the I welcome the Chancellor’s statement. If he accepted UK economy. In the light of that, what action does he submissions to revert to a VAT cut through a debt-funded intend to take to ensure that the problems with the US cut, would it have an impact on the UK’s triple A credit economy and the eurozone do not lead to further rating? downward pressure on UK economic growth?

Mr Osborne: A multibillion-pound increase in our Mr Osborne: Unfortunately, I cannot make the UK deficit would undermine market confidence in the UK, invulnerable to events elsewhere in the world. Of course and would lead to an immediate increase in our market there is a global connection. I would draw this distinction interest rates, probably within minutes. That would between what I am saying and what the previous Prime effectively mean higher mortgage and interest rates for Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and businesses and families, and it would be one of the Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), says. I am not saying that things that would choke off the recovery. Britain has been blameless in the way it has handled its economy in the past decade or so. I am saying that we Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I was were the most enthusiastic participant in a global debt pleased to visit TAG Energy Solutions in my constituency boom, and as a result we have one of the more difficult on Tuesday—a company that has just invested £20 million adjustments. That is, I am afraid, a statement of fact. in a new rolling mill to make monopiles and transition pieces for the offshore wind industry. It is still to land its Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Recent first order, and it is frustrated at the disadvantage that it reports have shown that the rural economy has the has in comparison with Germany and other European capacity to grow quickly if it has the right conditions. countries, which buy at home. When will the Chancellor Will the Chancellor confirm in his autumn update on really do something to help British industry, ensure the plan for growth that those conditions will be met so British wind farm developers buy British, help TAG that the rural economy can play its part in improving create hundreds of jobs in Teesside, and get our economy the national finances? moving again? Mr Osborne: We recognise the specific needs of the Mr Osborne: We are seeking to develop a domestic rural economy. Meeting them is one of the specific green energy industry; the company that the hon. work strands in the second phase of the growth review. I Gentleman speaks of sounds like a good example of know something of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. that. I hope that people buy British products, such as One of the absolute keys to rural economic development wind turbines, because they are the best in the world. To is getting the infrastructure right, especially rural broadband, help that company make the best products in the world, which will open up all sorts of business opportunities in we have to create a very competitive business environment, what would previously have been regarded as quite because the competition from the likes of Germany is remote places. That is why we are right to be investing in so strong. Some of the decisions that have been taken rural broadband in Wales and across the UK. on our energy policy have provided some stability, which allows investment in renewable energy technology. Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Will the Chancellor take the opportunity today to repudiate Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The Humber the OBR’s linkage of low growth with a requirement of is one of the regions that, over the past 10 years, lost £46 billion additional borrowing over the next period? private sector jobs, and instead relied on the public If he will not, what additional cuts is he planning in sector. Our way back is through manufacturing, so may order to avoid that outcome? I urge the Chancellor to look very closely at measures such as carbon floor pricing, and to look at clipping the Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman misunderstands wings of organisations such as Natural England, which two things. First, the OBR is independent. If it is going are frustrating the planning process locally? Perhaps to work as a permanent institution, it will need the more parochially, will he look seriously at the submission support of the official Opposition. I hope that that is from the Humber Bridge Board to buy the Humber forthcoming, not just in the letter but in the spirit. bridge and cut tolls by next year? There should not be a constant demand for the Chancellor of the day to provide their own fiscal forecasts. Secondly, Mr Osborne: I completely agree with my hon. Friend as I say, we have put in place a credible deficit reduction about the need to make progress on our planning reforms plan. We heard from the shadow Chancellor that Labour for the reasons that he gives. That means making some needed a credible deficit reduction plan as well. Not a difficult decisions, and taking on some pressure groups, single Labour Member, including him, has proposed a but I think that is absolutely right. Our planning reforms single pound of spending cuts. Until the Labour party take into account the need to preserve our natural gets that credible plan, it will not really be able to environment. participate in a sensible debate. 1129 Global Economy 11 AUGUST 2011 1130

George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Has my right Point of Order hon. Friend seen the latest data which show not only that the private sector has created four times more jobs than the public sector has lost but that Britain is now second in the G20 league of net job creation? Does that 3.40 pm not show that the deficit strategy is working, and that the shadow Chancellor is wholly out of touch and has Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): On a not learned the golden rule that you cannot borrow point of order, Mr Speaker. During the Prime Minister’s your way out of a debt crisis? statement, you suggested that people could not speak if they were not here at the beginning of that statement. Mr Osborne: The shadow Chancellor has a bit of a Could you clarify for me whether that includes people history on his golden rules, and they do not usually turn who were not on the Floor of the House but were out to work, but my hon. Friend is right that we are indeed sitting in the Galleries? seeing net job creation. We are not remotely complacent about that. We are working extremely hard at improving Mr Speaker: I do not think any clarification is required. the competitiveness of British industry, making sure I simply say to the hon. Lady that by recent custom and that it is able to export and invest. That is the model of practice, an hon. Member would be expected to be near growth that this country now has to pursue. a microphone in order properly to pose a question and Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): As the to receive an answer. When a Member is in the Chamber Chancellor knows, growth figures over the past nine for that purpose, he or she can do so. I did not refer to months have been 0.2% and in the preceding nine any particular Member. I have no intention of doing so months they were 2.1%. Many of the suggestions from and no need to do so. I said what I did and I felt that it the Opposition are about growth and economic was clear to the House. regeneration. If we continue to see growth figures of that nature, either flatlining or negative, will the Chancellor Business without Debate reconsider his position and look at policies that stimulate growth? Mr Osborne: The only thing I have heard from the SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE Opposition—who by the way presided over the deepest Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing recession since the 1930s—is a complaint every time Order No. 25), there is a proposal to cut public expenditure. We heard that earlier today. I have not heard about any growth That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Monday policies—as the hon. Lady puts it—from the Labour 5 September 2011.—(Sir George Young.) party; I have just heard opportunistic opposition to everything the Government are doing to have a credible deficit reduction plan. The shadow Chancellor has set himself his own test; he says he will produce a credible medium-term fiscal deficit plan. Let’s hear it. Several hon. Members rose— Mr Speaker: Order. I thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the 52 Back Benchers who have questioned him. 1131 11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1132

Public Disorder Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I commend the points that my right hon. Friend has made in opening the debate. Does she share the concern 3.42 pm relayed by a number of hon. Members about the soft The Secretary of State for the Home Department sentences for such disorder passed in the cases that have (Mrs Theresa May): I beg to move, already gone through the courts? Does she share my That this House has considered the matter of public disorder. concern that, although we talk about riots, the number of people charged with riot is very small? As these were Mr Speaker: I remind the House that in view of the riots, whoever is charged with an offence during the enormous interest in the debate I have imposed a limit nights of disorder should punished accordingly. of five minutes on Back-Bench speeches. There is no limit on Front-Bench speeches and I leave it to the Mrs May: We have been clear in encouraging those Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary to who are making decisions about charging and, indeed, tailor contributions in light of the level of interest. those who will make sentencing decisions in the courts to consider these crimes in the context of the circumstances. Mrs May: Thank you, Mr Speaker. My hon. Friend refers to the fact that no one has been charged with the very specific offence of riot. The police The last five days have been a dark time for everybody and the Crown Prosecution Service are making the who cares about their community and their country. right charging decisions, and they are doing so in the Violence, arson and looting in several of our towns and context of ensuring that they recognise the impact that cities, often openly in front of television cameras, have people being on the streets can have. destroyed homes, ruined livelihoods and taken lives. As long as we wish to call ourselves a civilised society, such No one doubts that the violence that we have seen disorder has no place in Britain. over the past five days is a symptom of something very deeply wrong with our society. Children celebrated as I know that the House will want to join me in paying they smashed their way into shops. Men in sports cars tribute to the bravery of the policemen and women who arrived at stores to steal goods. Women tried on trainers have worked to restore order on our streets. In particular, before they stole them. A teaching assistant was caught I know that hon. Members will want to lend their looting. Thugs pretended to help a injured young man support to the police officers who have suffered injuries but robbed him. They are shocking images, but they are in the course of their duties, and the whole House will in fact symbols of a deeper malaise in our society. want to send condolences to the families of the three Almost 2 million children are brought up in households men so senselessly killed in Birmingham on Tuesday in which no one works. One in three children leaves night. primary school unable to read, write and add up properly. The violence of the last five days raises many searching We have the highest level of drug abuse in Europe. questions, and the answers may be painful to hear and Almost 100 knife crimes are committed every day and difficult to put right. Why is it that so many people are nearly 1 million violent crimes every year. Half of all prepared to behave in this way? Why does a violent prisoners reoffend within a year of their release from gang culture exist in so many of our towns and cities? prison. Those are serious social problems, and we cannot Why did the police find it so hard to prevent or contain go on ignoring them. No one is pretending that there the violence? It will take time to answer those questions are easy answers to such deep-rooted problems, but fully and adequately, but I will take each of them in they are the reasons why the reform of welfare, schools turn. and the criminal justice system cannot wait. First are the reasons behind that behaviour. We must never forget that the only cause of a crime is a criminal. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The right hon. Everybody, no matter what their background or Lady lays out the context of the difficult role that faces circumstances, has the freedom to choose between right our police. In that context, is it not bizarre that the and wrong. Those who make the wrong decision, who Government should choose to make such swingeing engage in criminality, must be identified, arrested and cuts to the Home Office budget and particularly to the punished, and we will make sure that happens. police budget, in comparison with other budgets that have survived relatively intact? Why does she not fight Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): her corner and ensure that we have enough police on the Does the right hon. Lady not recognise what the Prime streets to do the job? Minister said earlier? Every crime has a context. Is it not important, therefore, to have a full and proper Mrs May: I am clear that there will be enough police inquiry, led by somebody of the level and competence on the streets to do the job that we and the public want of Lord Scarman, to look at the wider context of all them to do, and that police officers want to do. I say to these events? Of course, as the Home Secretary says, any other Opposition Member who wants to make a stating the blindingly obvious, the acts are the responsibility similar point that I listened to the previous statement of those who committed them. and it is now absolutely clear that the Labour party has abandoned any pretence of having a credible policy to Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman asked the Prime deal with the deficit. Minister exactly the same question, and he gave a very clear answer. The Home Affairs Committee will consider Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The the policing of the violence that has taken place over Prime Minister said this morning that, all of sudden, the past five days, and I will bring a report on gang the Met could turn out 16,000 people in a day, rather culture and the number of gangs in our society—I will than the previous 6,000 or whatever the figure was. That make further reference to it—to the House in October. does not take into account all the other policemen and 1133 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1134

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd] they had not seen before. There were times in Salford when the police did not have sufficient numbers to deal women from all the other forces. How many Met police with what was happening on the street, and they had to were in fact turned out, and how many came from other retreat and regroup both for their personal protection forces? and to make sure that they could do their proper job of protection on the streets. Mrs May: A significant number did indeed come I can inform the right hon. Member for Dwyfor from other forces. I do not want to give the right hon. Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), who asked how many of the Gentleman figures that are incorrect, so I will get the 16,000 officers in London were Metropolitan Police precise figures for him. It is right that the 16,000 figure Service officers, that more than 90% were. that the Prime Minister spoke about included mutual aid from other forces. I pay tribute to all the forces Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): around the United Kingdom that have been willing to Will the Home Secretary give way? provide support and particularly trained police support units. Mrs May: I said I wanted to make some progress, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. I am conscious Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Is it also the right that the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras hon. Lady’s understanding that if a police authority has (Frank Dobson), whose constituency was affected, rose had to dip into its contingency fund to pay any of the earlier. If he still wishes to intervene, I will take his additional costs of high police visibility, which we all intervention next. understand have to be met, it will be recompensed—that there is no question of police authorities having to Andrew Miller: Following the right hon. Lady’s reply expend the money themselves? to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), who speaks for the Welsh nationalists, can Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman has been involved she give similar figures for Manchester and Liverpool, in home affairs long enough to know that a scheme is which also drew on resources from surrounding forces? available under which police forces can make special We heard earlier about injuries sustained by Cheshire requests to the Home Office in relation to specific officers, for example. I think the figures ought to published expenses that they have had to incur. There are some and made available to everyone. rules on how the scheme operates, but as the Prime Minister made clear, we are committed to providing Mrs May: I could provide a map of where officers support to police authorities, and therefore police forces, went around the country, but it was not a matter of in relation to the financial implications of the Riot simple exchanges between one force and another. Officers (Damages) Act 1886. As the House will be aware, those from one force will have gone to support another, with costs could be significant, given the events on our subsequent backfilling by officers from a further force. streets. The whole point of the ACPO PNICC—police national information co-ordination centre—arrangement is that Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): such movements around the country can be worked so Will the Home Secretary give way? that when a force asks for numbers to be increased, officers are available. The key element is that the officers Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Will in question are mainly in police support units—officers the right hon. Lady give way? who are specially trained in public order—thereby ensuring that the officers on the streets have the right level of Mrs May: I will give way to the hon. Lady, then make training. a little progress. Frank Dobson: In response to the hon. Member for Barbara Keeley: Apropos police budgets, will the Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), the Home Secretary right hon. Lady comment on what it has been reported said that no one had been charged with riot because the she was told by Greater Manchester police about what particular circumstances of riot had not arisen, or the happened on Tuesday: charge was inappropriate. Will she confirm that that “We really didn’t have the staff, protection or resources to deal fact will not be used by the Metropolitan police to with it. I find it really, really frustrating and really worrying that weasel out of providing the compensation that should people could have got killed.” be provided under the Riot (Damages) Act? So overstretched were our officers in Greater Manchester, particularly in Salford, that apparently they reported to Mrs May: I think I can provide that guarantee to the the Home Secretary that they could have been killed. It right hon. Gentleman. is not only Labour Members who are saying this; it is police officers, as well. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): My constituency was badly affected on Monday. I wanted to ask about Mrs May: I was pleased to visit Greater Manchester the police cuts. The Prime Minister told us earlier that police yesterday and to sit down with some of the the budget cuts could be managed with no reductions in officers—the most highly trained riot officers—who visible policing. As the Home Secretary knows, in London had been on the front line in Salford on Tuesday night. a large number of police sergeants are being taken out One of the most striking comments made by an officer the leadership of safer neighbourhoods teams in a very was that he had looked up into the sky and it was dark visible way. Are we to take it that the Government think because it was raining bricks. They were under extreme there is a different way of managing cuts in London pressure that night, facing violence of a ferocity that from the one that is being implemented? 1135 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1136

Mrs May: No. We are leaving police forces, as is Mrs May: I am conscious of the strictures that appropriate, together with their police authorities, to Mr Speaker put on the length of the debate. The right decide in relation to budget what will happen. We are hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark leaving chief constables to make operational decisions (Simon Hughes) asked earlier to intervene, so I will give about how they do that. What is absolutely clear in way to him. relation to the Metropolitan police is that under the leadership of the last Commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) the Metropolitan police increased the availability of (LD): I am grateful. Does the Home Secretary accept police in terms of the number of hours that would be that the evidence from the police and the community in spent and the amount of ground that could be covered urban communities such as mine is that there are 40 or by moving to the single patrols. They said, “There is a 50 serial serious criminals who are regularly the causes different way of doing this.” That is a good example of of most of the trouble and most of the crime, and who how such an innovative approach can improve the were involved in the past week’s activities? Can she give presence on the ground. an assurance that with chief police officers and local I shall now move on to the question of gang culture police commanders they are a central target for activity, in many of our towns and cities. Six per cent. of young so that they cannot sweep in the youngsters referred to people are thought to belong to a gang of one kind or in the previous question and others, who become the another. Gangs are inherently criminal. On average, followers, but are following only because there is someone entrenched gang members have 11 criminal convictions, seriously criminal who leads? and the average age for the first conviction of a gang member is just 15. They are also inherently violent. Mrs May: I can assure my right hon. Friend that the Gangs across the country are involved with the use and police are very clear that they want to identify and supply of drugs, firearms and knives. From talking to arrest all those who have been involved in the activity chief constables who have dealt with the violence of the that has taken place over the past few days, and they are past few days, it is clear that many of the perpetrators, conscious that that means not just those who find but by no means all of them, are known gang members. themselves caught up in it, but those who are the core So we have to do more to tackle gang culture. criminals, who are well known to them. As a number of We have already announced plans to provide £4 million chief constables have been saying to me, they know a in funding to London, Greater Manchester and the number of the gang members who have been involved west midlands over the course of this year and next to because they have had interaction with them before. tackle their gang, guns and knives problem. We are providing a further £4 million over two years to community Several hon. Members rose— organisations working to stop young people becoming involved in gangs, help young people get out of gangs Mrs May: I hope that hon. Members will bear with and support parents to help their children, and we are me and allow me to make a little more progress because working with the Prince’s Trust to support young people I am conscious of the time available for the debate. who want to prevent gang violence, through the new We need to help communities more in sharing ideas Ben Kinsella fund. and expertise on how we can tackle their gang problems, so working with ACPO we will establish an ending gang Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is violence team of experts drawn from across the country, clear that many of the perpetrators of these appalling from the police service, local authorities and the voluntary crimes have been very young children indeed, and we sector, to provide an up-to-date map of the scale of the know the limitations of the criminal law in relation to problem and practical, on-the-ground expert advice to detention for young offenders who are under 14. Does areas wanting to get on top of their gang problems. my right hon. Friend agree that efforts to use restorative In January we launched gang injunctions, which give justice principles with young offenders, making them the police the power to impose tough sanctions on adult face up to the victims of their crimes and making them gang members, such as barring them from entering play their part in restoring the damage that they have certain parts of town, appearing in public with dogs or done would be a good way to divert those young wearing their gang colours or emblems. As the Prime children from further involvement in the gang culture Minister said in his statement earlier today, we will now and in the crimes that we have seen? go further and introduce gang injunctions for young people under the age of 18, not just in pilot form but Mrs May: I have long been a supporter of restorative throughout the country. As the Prime Minister also said justice where it is going to work. That is one of the key in his statement, and as I said in answer to a question, I issues that we need to look at when we consider what is will present a report to Parliament in October on a an appropriate way of dealing with individuals. Restorative cross-Government programme to combat gangs. justice has a record of dealing particularly well with those who are young and first offenders. However, Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I have listened sadly, it may be the case that even at a very young age, carefully to what the Prime Minister and the Home some of the people we are looking at who have been Secretary have had to say so far, and I have heard involved in the violence are not simply first offenders. It already that we want the police to be able to surge in is a sad comment on our society that there may be those numbers in immediate crisis situations. The Home Secretary who have been involved as gang members in criminal has now given a reassurance that the police will focus on activity previously. But we need to do more. the most prolific and serious offenders in our communities and she is now going into detail about how the police Several hon. Members rose— will work with a range of community partners to end 1137 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1138

[Hazel Blears] I want to move on to the questions about the police reaction to the violence, because I know that hon. gangs. There has to be a limit to what the police can Members, like members of the public, are concerned achieve, and in Greater Manchester we will have 1,500 about the speed and quality of the police response. That fewer of them at the end of this period. Cuts do need to response has changed over the past five days and has be made, but at the moment a 20% cut genuinely needs differed across the country. We need to appraise it to be re-evaluated in the light of the incidents and the honestly and bluntly and learn lessons where things severity of the events we have seen. have gone wrong. As we know, the first disturbances in London began in Tottenham on Saturday night. The Mrs May: I pay tribute to the way in which the right police operation began with the originally peaceful hon. Lady has entered into the debate generally. Her protest about the death of Mark Duggan. Officers were constituency was particularly badly affected and is a understandably cautious about how they policed the particular example of criminal gangs operating on the protest, but as the violence began they lost control and streets in order to test and press the police. I will give the a fully fledged riot followed. same answer to her in relation to police budgets as I On Sunday night, with Tottenham calm, the police gave earlier and as my right hon. Friend the Prime managed to nip in the bud trouble at Oxford Circus, but Minister gave to a number of Members who raised the the violence spread to Enfield and Brixton. On Monday issue. At the end of the spending review period, the night, the number of officers deployed in London increased police will have the numbers to enable them to deploy in to 6,000, two or three times more than there are on a the way they have done during the last few days. It is normal evening, but still that was not enough and, with possible to make cuts in police budgets by taking money the violence reaching Hackney, Peckham, Croydon, out of matters such as better procurement to ensure Ealing, Lewisham and Clapham, officers were overwhelmed. that we can achieve the cuts that we need to make while In Clapham, the mob ran amok for more than two still leaving police able to do the job that we want them hours before the police regained control. That is simply to do and that they want to do. not acceptable. In January 2011, the chief constable of Greater On Tuesday, the Prime Minister and I held a meeting Manchester police, Peter Fahy, told the Home Affairs with the acting Metropolitan Police Commissioner, in Committee: which he set out his intention at least to double the “we have large numbers of officers still in roles that do not require deployment of officers. During the day, a number of the skills, the powers and expertise of a police officer. It is through offenders were identified, arrested and taken out of that route over the next four years where we will achieve quite a circulation. Officers took a tougher approach and intervened bit of savings.” earlier to disperse groups before trouble began. Leave was cancelled, special constables were mobilised and Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I congratulate my mutual aid was stepped up, so up to 16,000 officers were right hon. Friend on the emphasis that she is putting on deployed in total. As I said, officers took a more robust the gang culture, which the Prime Minister himself approach to tackling disorder and making arrests. There referred to when he said that it was a culture that are tricky days and nights ahead, but thanks to the glorifies violence and says everything about rights but efforts of those thousands of officers order has in large nothing about responsibilities. Does she agree that the part been restored. legal restraints that are placed upon, for example, the police, social services, teachers and parents, in imposing Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) discipline in the home, in school or elsewhere, directly (Lab):—rose. derive from a number of legal constraints that come from, for example, the Human Rights Act 1998, which Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab):—rose. needs to be repealed? We cannot deal with the culture and with the question of rights and responsibilities Mrs May: I will give way to the hon. Lady, whose unless we deal with one of the root causes, which is this constituency was affected, and then to the hon. Gentleman. idea that people can do anything and get away with it. Ms Abbott: The whole House admires the bravery Mrs May: We are taking steps to deal with the and courage of the police officers, who were often up culture, and one example is that my right hon. Friend for three or four days without any time off, and we the Secretary of State for Education is taking steps to understand the need to police the disturbances in Tottenham ensure that we restore discipline in our schools. My carefully, but young people were seen looting Wood hon. Friend refers to the Human Rights Act, which was Green shopping centre and Tottenham Hale retail park referred to during questions to the Prime Minister, and for hours early on Sunday morning, which I think gave my hon. Friend is well aware that we are looking at the the green light to every little hooligan in London to issue both through the Bill of Rights commission that come out on following days to loot and steal. has been set up by the Ministry of Justice and my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary and work that we are doing with the ECHR. Mrs May: It is unacceptable that people were able to do that on our streets. There were not enough police on the streets on Saturday night. The number of police was Several hon. Members rose— increased further on Sunday and Monday, and it was then clear that that needed to go further. We had a Mrs May: I ask hon. Members to bear with me, conversation with the acting Metropolitan Police because I am very conscious of the fact that many will Commissioner, who presented plans to more than double wish to speak in the debate. the number of police on the streets. I have been clear 1139 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1140 over the past few days that we need not only the police in towns and cities including Manchester, Salford, presence, but a tough policy on arrests to give a very Nottingham, Wolverhampton and, for a second night, clear message that these actions have consequences so Birmingham, where there was further violence. In Greater that people do not think that they can get away with it Manchester and the west midlands, despite the best in the way the hon. Lady suggests. efforts of officers, we saw for a while that thugs, not the police, were in control of the streets. Mr Umunna: I am grateful to the Home Secretary for In Winson Green in Birmingham, as we know, three giving way. The surge in officers that came after the young men were killed when they were hit, apparently decision taken at 9 am on Tuesday made a huge difference deliberately, by a car, and I, like the whole House, want in my constituency and meant that we had a peaceful to pay tribute to Tariq Jahan, the father of one of the night. Did the commissioner explain why he did not victims, for an extremely dignified call for calm, which increase the number of police to 16,000 sooner? The undoubtedly did much to calm community relations. police in my constituency dealt with a really impossible situation and we are incredibly grateful to them, but As I have just said in answer to an intervention, why was that decision, which was announced by the yesterday I convened and chaired a conference call with Prime Minister at 9 am on Tuesday, not made sooner—for chief officers from every force in the country. We agreed example, on Monday evening, because it was very clear the mobilisation of all special constables, the cancellation in our area, given what had happened on Sunday night, of police leave throughout the country and the adoption that this would get far bigger? of the tactics deployed by the Metropolitan police in London. Again, there are difficult days and nights Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman raises a valid point. ahead, and we are not complacent, but at this stage That is one of the issues that we need to look at in more order has been resorted. detail when dealing with this. However, the answer that We said that we would do everything necessary to I would give him is that when the police were looking at bring the disorder to an end, and we meant it. We made their numbers and bringing in some mutual aid, which it clear to the police that there was nothing to stop them they did on Monday night, they were of the view that using baton rounds if they judged it necessary, and we they would have the capacity to deal with what they put the water cannon stationed in Northern Ireland on believed was going to happen. standby, to be deployed within 24 hours. The police The police were dealing with a different situation made it clear to me that they did not want to use them, from that which they had seen before. One comment and, as things stand, what is working to restore order is that a number of chief constables and officers have officers on the streets and robust policing with the help made to me is that they were surprised by the speed with and support of local communities. We would jeopardise which gangs were able to mobilise through the use of that if we rushed to use things such as rubber bullets. social media, and I shall come on to the issue of social media. Very real questions have to be answered about Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): During the Prime how we take forward those policing matters, and that is Minister’s statement, we heard a lot about the stand-and- why we need to make sure that we learn the lessons from observe order that was apparently given to the police in that situation. particular circumstances. We all agree that that was The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) is terrible, but was not the policy determined mostly by right that the number of officers then put on the streets police concern about over-reaction, given that they have on Tuesday night was effective. That robust policing, been so criticised for how they dealt with the G20 riots, coupled with a robust arrest policy, was effective; it has on which there is a case pending in the European Court been continued, and other forces have followed it through. of Human Rights? Does the Home Secretary agree that, whatever police powers we end up agreeing with, Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): It is very in such circumstances we must provide consistent support easy for us as politicians to be armchair police officers, when things go wrong? and it would have been wrong to comment on the night, but we need a cold analysis in order to know whether, Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes an important point for example, the lessons of the surge in London were that I will come to in my remarks. taken on board in other parts of the country. That is not The police are concerned to ensure that when we talk a matter that should divide the House; that is a matter about robust policing, we definitely give them backing of concern to my constituents, obviously, to those of for what they want to do. Policing by consent is the other Greater Manchester Members and to those in British way, but the police retain the confidence of the other cities and conurbations throughout the country. wider community only if they are seen to take clear and robust action in the face of open criminality. On Monday Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman makes a very valid night it was clear that there simply were not enough point, and yesterday I had a conference call with chief officers on duty. The largest policing event in London is officers from throughout the country to tell them that the Notting Hill carnival. There were about 6,000 officers we wanted them to adopt exactly that approach. I shall on duty on Monday night, which is the number that the refer to that in a few minutes. police usually deploy for the Notting Hill carnival. It Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): Will the was clear that in the circumstances that developed that Home Secretary give way? was not enough officers on duty. It is clear to me that the original police tactics were Mrs May: I am going to make a little more progress, insufficient—exactly the point that my hon. Friend the because, although the number of officers on the streets Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) raised. After on Tuesday night made a difference in London, we saw the criticism of previous public order operations for more disorder in other parts of the country. We saw it excessive force, some officers appeared reluctant to be 1141 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1142

[Mrs May] used social networking. That is why what should be done in relation to social networking is not an easy sufficiently robust in breaking up groups. Many arrests open-and-shut case. There are positive uses of social were made, but in some situations officers contained networking sites as well as negative uses. That is why it suspects in a specified area where they were free to is important that I convene the various parties involved commit criminal damage and steal, instead of intervening to sit down and talk this matter through in a sensible and making arrests. I want to make it clear to the House way. Among the issues we will discuss is whether and that in making these points, I am not criticising the how we should stop people communicating via such police. Too often, the police are damned if they do and websites and services when we know that they are damned if they don’t. Nowhere is that truer than in plotting violence, disorder and criminality. public order policing. I want to be clear that as long as officers act within reason and the law, this Home Secretary Several hon. Members rose— will never damn the police if they do. Mrs May: There is a limit on Back-Bench speeches David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Earlier, I raised and I have already spoken for more than half an hour, with the Prime Minister the nervousness of the police in so if hon. Members will bear with me, I think that I acting since the G20 disturbances and the sad death. should finish my speech and give Back Benchers the Will the Home Secretary reassure the House that officers opportunity to speak. who take robust action will not find themselves on the A further difficulty, not just in the past week’s disorder, wrong end of the law? but in other recent operations, has been face covering Mrs May: As I have just said and as I have made clear by criminals. The police already have a power to require to the police from when I first took on this role, I will people to remove face coverings in certain limited always back officers who do the right thing and operate circumstances. Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and within the law. Appropriate action must be taken against Public Order Act 1994 allows officers to force their officers who do the wrong thing, but we will back removal only in a specific geographical location for a officers who do the right thing and I will back them as limited time, linked to a threat of violence. That does Home Secretary. not leave discretion to individual constables or allow officers to nip trouble in the bud early. We will change Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): the law to allow police officers to remove face coverings Will my right hon. Friend give way? if they have a reasonable belief that they are related to criminal activity, under any circumstances. As the Prime Mrs May: I ask my hon. Friend to bear with me for a Minister has said, we will also consider the use of few minutes because I want to talk about another way existing dispersal powers and whether any wider power in which the police response could have been better, of curfew is necessary. which is in the harnessing, sharing and analysis of We often say in the House that there can be no liberty intelligence. without order and the events of the past five days have Even in the best of economic times, we would not shown that more clearly than ever. The tide is turning, have the resources to keep up this level of deployment and order is returning to our streets. Since Saturday, continuously, so public order planning and intelligence more than 1,200 people have been arrested and more will need to be considerably better. This is not the first than 400 have been charged. Courts in London, the time that criminals with plans to disrupt life in our west midlands and Manchester have worked through towns and cities have used technology to plot their the night and offenders are already starting to be prosecuted. crimes. Social networking sites such as Twitter and I am clear that the perpetrators of the violence must pay Facebook and messaging services such as BlackBerry for their actions, and the courts should hand down Messenger have been used to co-ordinate criminality custodial sentences for any violent crimes. and stay one step ahead of the police. I will therefore The tide is turning because communities throughout convene a meeting with ACPO, the police and the country have said that enough is enough. It is representatives from the social media industry to work turning because the thugs are being arrested and locked out how we can improve the technological and related up. It is turning because of the bravery and dedication legal capabilities of the police. of the men and women of our police forces. We ask police officers to put themselves in harm’s way on a Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): Social routine basis. We ask them to go into dangerous situations networking has obviously been heavily involved in the that most of us hope we will never experience. We have organisation of the disruption. However, open social the best police officers in the world and we owe them all networks such as Twitter have also provided the police, a debt of gratitude. including Kent police, with an opportunity to dispel rumours and myths about where future disturbances 4.21 pm will happen. There is more of a problem with closed networks such as BlackBerry Messenger. Will the Home Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) Secretary congratulate forces that have used social (Lab): We gather today in sober circumstances, when networking to their advantage and concentrate on the the scenes on the streets of Britain’s cities have disturbed closed networking opportunities that have been used by and appalled us all: burning buildings, looting, beatings, others? smashing windows, setting cars on fire, with shop owners fearful for their livelihoods and residents fearful for Mrs May: I certainly congratulate forces that have their very lives. City dwellers, who have been proud of used social networking to their advantage. Kent police regeneration and the reclamation of the streets as urban are one example and the Metropolitan police have also crime fell, suddenly feel afraid to walk outside their doors. 1143 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1144

Yesterday, I talked to a woman in West Bromwich and disturbing for city dwellers over the past few nights: outside her shop. It is a small shop, which she staffs the fear that the rule of law, which we so often take for alone. Two of her neighbours were also small business granted, could suddenly seem to be ripped up. Those women running their own high street shops. On Tuesday women in West Bromwich whom I talked to yesterday afternoon, those women were terrified by gangs who need the confidence to keep their businesses open and tore down that high street, throwing bricks and setting a to be able to lock up at night and walk the streets home van alight outside the sweet shop on the corner. Yesterday, to their families in safety. People have a right to feel safe they were back in their shops—they work hard—but in their homes and safe on their streets. Maintaining they were afraid. The jeweller’s opposite had decided respect for the rule of law is a fundamental part of our not to open at all. The security and confidence in going democracy and why we as democrats in this House all about their daily lives that they normally took for stand to support it now. Ultimately, it is about respect granted had been destroyed. for other people—for their safety and their livelihoods. We have all been horrified by the extent of criminality— That is why we now support the Government and the the opportunistic looting, the aggression, the greed, the Home Secretary in their work to restore order to our lack of respect for people, property, community or the streets and normality to our communities. I know that law—that we saw in those involved over a series of the Home Secretary has been deeply worried and concerned nights. However, we must not let that blind us to the about these events from the start. I know that she called heroism, bravery and determination of communities to my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham support law and order and to stand against the violence (Mr Lammy) on Sunday to express her concern and and the chaos. that she returned to the Home Office on Monday. I In particular, I want to join the Home Secretary in commend her for doing so, and for her early grasp of paying tribute to those police officers who have worked the seriousness of the violence. We support her and the so hard to face up to the criminals and restore order. Prime Minister in their determination to restore order Many have been out on the streets working 17 or to Britain’s streets. As other Members have said, it is 18-hour days, standing up to baying mobs. Officers important that we come together in this House to have come from throughout the country into cities to condemn the criminality that we have seen. There is no help, and specials and police community support officers excuse for the violence, destruction and theft, putting have been doing everything they can. We should pay lives as well as livelihoods at risk. The perpetrators must tribute to their bravery and to that of the fire and other take responsibility and face the consequences of what emergency services. they have done. We should also pay tribute to those in our communities The Government were right to convene Cobra, were who have worked hard to prevent violence from escalating: right to recall Parliament and are right to support the the thousands who have joined clean-up campaigns; the police in the action that they need to take. Thankfully, people who are helping the police now, reporting the last night was relatively calm, and we have seen progress neighbour who has suddenly got three new tellies; and being made. However, Ministers will also know that it is those who are reaching out to young people to prevent not sufficient to restore calm for a night or a week. Our them from getting drawn into criminal activity. We cities cannot afford for these problems to simmer and should recognise that millions of young people across bubble, and then to spill over again in a week or month, Britain were also deeply appalled by the violence of a or when the next big public event takes place. We need a minority. They reject the criminal action that we have clear strategy for tackling this violence throughout the seen. summer and beyond. That is the task for Parliament now: not just to condemn, but to debate the action that All our thoughts will also be with the family and must be taken. friends of those who have died. I particularly want to send condolences, as the Home Secretary has done, to That means, first, support for strong action through the families of the three young men in Birmingham who the police and the courts, and considering the powers were killed in the early hours of yesterday morning in that the police and the courts have. More than 1,500 people the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for have been arrested so far, and that is rising all the time. Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood). She has Those who committed criminal acts must face the full told me how much those young men were loved and force of the law. The Home Secretary was right to show how devastating their loss is to their friends, families her support for robust police action as well. I welcome and communities. Special tribute must go to Tariq the all-night sittings of the London courts to ensure Jahan, who stood before the public, just hours after that charges can be swiftly brought. I welcome too the losing his son Haroon, to appeal for calm. He said: use of CCTV, which has played a powerful role in identifying the culprits, and the use of dispersal orders “’Today we stand here to plead with all the youth to remain and other powers to intervene fast, rather than waiting calm, for our communities to stand united.” for disorder to take hold. We also support looking That was the sentiment of a man and a family in their further at the issues of face coverings and curfews. darkest hour, which has resonated—and should— However, those now in government have in the past throughout the country. have criticised the use and the existence of many of the It was a disgrace to see literally thousands of British powers concerned, previously voting against many measures citizens, many of them not yet even old enough to vote, on face coverings and now, in the Protection of Freedoms ripping through our urban fabric, but standing against Bill, making things harder for the police, including on them now are not just thousands of British police CCTV. I particularly ask the Home Secretary to look officers, but millions of British people, who love their again at her proposals to introduce considerable additional cities and towns, and who support their communities layers of new bureaucracy for the police and councils and the rule of law. That is what has been so shocking who want to introduce CCTV.I hope that she will think 1145 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1146

[Yvette Cooper] It is right to back the police and be very clear that we will support them when they have to take very difficult again. As she does so, she may also want to consider and robust decisions, but some of the briefings to the looking again at plans to ban antisocial behaviour newspapers suggested that the police did not have the orders. powers to use water cannons or baton rounds, and that they had them only because the Prime Minister had Mr Burrowes: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for stepped in to authorise them and to encourage their use. giving way. I wanted to intervene when she was being This issue needs to be carefully handled. The police particularly measured in her response, which I welcome. have always had those powers and it is right that they Will she dissociate herself from the ill-judged comments should use them in operational situations where that is by the former London Mayor, who sought to put the appropriate and they judge that they are needed. We blame for what happened on the streets of London on should back them in such circumstances, but I caution Government actions? that we should be clear that it is an operational judgment for those police officers, not a matter of direction by politicians. Yvette Cooper: No, that is not what Ken Livingstone was saying. He has been very clear that those who have Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I committed criminal acts need to take responsibility and agree with my right hon. Friend. If these horrendous to feel the full force of the law. events were to occur in the era of police and crime Let me add a word of caution to the Government commissioners, is she confident that chief constables briefing on water cannons and baton rounds. The perception would have the power to make such decisions should in the newspapers has been that it was only the Prime a baying public demand different action from the Minister’s intervention that has made possible the use commissioners? Wouldchief constables be able to withstand of water cannon and baton rounds, and the Home that pressure? Secretary seemed to suggest something similar in her statement today. However, it is important to be clear Yvette Cooper: Senior police officers who I have that the police already had the power to use baton spoken to are concerned about the possibility that their rounds or to ask police in Northern Ireland for the use activities will be constrained or inhibited by inappropriate of their water cannon. That is an operational matter for intervention by American-style police and crime the police, not a political judgment for Ministers. The commissioners in operational decisions. It is important Home Secretary will know that the ACPO head, one of to note that the operational independence guidance has the few chief constables to have used water cannon, has not yet been agreed between the police and the Government. made it clear today that those options are open to Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): The Prime senior officers but would not have been useful in the Minister rightly made great play of the ability of the particular circumstances that the police faced. Metropolitan police and, for example, the Greater The Home Secretary has rightly backed the police Manchester police to draw on officers from other forces, when they need to be able take robust action, but I hope but it is not clear to me whether it would still be possible that she will also—as part of that backing—affirm that to move police around the country following the the police are able to make independent operational introduction of political commissioners. The pressures decisions based on the individual circumstances that against it would be enormous. they face and that politicians are not trying to direct the police on issues as important as the use of water cannons Yvette Cooper: The Met’s ability to put 16,000 police and baton rounds. Fundamental to the rule of law that officers on the streets of London depended partly on we are now working so hard to sustain is the principle mutual aid. It depended on the ability to draw on of an impartial, professional police service, involving officers from other parts of the country, which is a policing by consent, and that must be preserved. hugely important principle. It is part of our policing model, and it has been effective. However, as my hon. I would also caution against any consideration of the Friend says, we should consider whether a chief constable use of the Army to play a policing role. If we have and a police and crime commissioner campaigning to enough police, we do not need the troops. They have be re-elected by the local community will put local their own important job to do. policing before their obligations to neighbouring areas that may face greater pressures. That is another major Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): concern that has been raised with me. Does the right hon. Lady not agree that while of course This issue raises serious questions about resources the police have discretion to use water cannons and which need to be addressed. Like the Prime Minister baton rounds, it is very important for our political and the Home Secretary, I have asked police representatives leaders to articulate their support? We must not fall into whether they need more powers to do their job in the the trap that her Government did when Ministers in the present circumstances. One senior officer put it very Ministry of Defence failed to give backing to troops bluntly: he said that the problem in the early stages had doing very difficult jobs in very difficult circumstances. been not a lack of powers, but a lack of cops. As the It is important that Ministers back the actions of our Home Secretary has confirmed, there were not enough police. police officers on the streets when the violence started. No one anticipated the scale of the violence that our Yvette Cooper: I simply disagree that when we were in cities would face. In some instances, the police did not government we failed to back our troops in difficult step in to make arrests because they did not have situations. We were very clear always to back the troops enough officers out there to do so while also containing in the very difficult job that they did. the public order problems that confronted them. 1147 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1148

Last night, again, the Met put 16,000 officers on the the police forces will be able to get additional help, streets. That is more than five times the normal likely because I am afraid she has not clarified that. I am sure strength in the capital, and it worked, but it came at a my right hon. Friend would make an excellent Home cost. Thousands of officers from other areas must be Secretary, but I think the current Home Secretary may paid for, as must the cancelling of leave. The last couple need to answer his questions, and mine as well. I still of nights have probably cost the Met alone millions of await the Home Secretary’s answer, but she remains pounds, and we need some clarity about the Government’s silent. position. The Prime Minister said that, under Victorian legislation, the costs of riot compensation would be Christopher Pincher rose— borne not by police budgets but by the Treasury reserve, and I welcome that announcement. However, the Prime Yvette Cooper: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman Minister also appeared to say, in answer to a question on the Government Back Benches, to see whether he asked by Members, that the Treasury would stand behind can provide clarity where the Home Secretary still refuses all the extra operational policing costs as well. I hope to do so. that that is correct, because the Home Secretary seemed Christopher Pincher: The right hon. Lady asks the to say something very different. She appeared to suggest Home Secretary to clarify a point, but may I ask her to that the pressure would sit on the reserves of the police clarify a point about her earlier comments on Ken authorities and forces involved. Livingstone? On the BBC, Mr Livingstone said that the I shall be happy to give way if the Home Secretary Government’s policies were creating social division, bringing wishes to clarify the disparity between her comments conflict between the communities and the police. Does and those of the Prime Minister. I hope she will agree she support that point of view, or will she condemn it? that the costs of policing unprecedented riots and criminality must not necessitate cuts in the very neighbourhood Yvette Cooper: Ken Livingstone was very clear about and community police whom we need in order to prevent the need for people to take responsibility for their further criminal action. actions and also the need for those involved in recent events to be punished. He was very clear about there Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Will the right being no excuse. hon. Lady give way? I have to say to the Home Secretary that we still do not have an answer. In the discussions I have had with Yvette Cooper: First I want to give the Home Secretary the Met police, they have expressed concern that the an opportunity to clarify the position in relation to the additional cost of the extra policing required as a result immediate additional operational costs that the Met of this criminality will come not from the Treasury and other forces will incur. [Interruption.] The Home reserve, but from their own reserve. Like the reserves of Secretary says, from a sedentary position, that she has many police authorities across the country, the Met already clarified that. The Prime Minister may need to reserve is extremely stretched as a result of the police correct the record, because he certainly gave me the cuts. If this situation continues over many days, I am impression, and I think he gave many other Members deeply concerned that the Met may end up having either the impression, that the Treasury would stand behind to reduce the level of policing on the streets before it is any of the additional operational costs faced by the ready to do so or to make cuts elsewhere in its budgets Met and other police forces as a result of this unprecedented on routine policing. The Home Secretary has still not criminal activity. Those costs could well be considerable, given any answer as to what she would do to support because we do not know how long the police activity the Met police and other police forces. She really does will need to continue. Will it continue through the need to think again on this and provide more information weekend or into next week, and how will it be paid for? to the House, and to police forces and communities Will it have to be paid for by police budgets which are across the country about what support they will get. already extremely stretched and already under pressure? Will normal, routine policing be overstretched as a Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): result of the Government’s decision not to fund these I must, I am afraid, take the right hon. Lady back to extra, additional and exceptional costs? what other members of her party have said, and seek clarity on that. The hon. Member for Derby North Keith Vaz: The Prime Minister was answering a question (Chris Williamson) tweeted that that I had put to him, and I was very clear that what was “the Tories are back alright. Why is it the Tories never take meant was if a police authority dipped into the contingency, responsibility for the consequences of their party’s disastrous the additional costs would be reimbursed to it. I think policies”, that what the Home Secretary just said in answer to me with the hash tag “tottenham”, but the hon. Member was that an authority would have to make an application for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) for that, but she tended to support what the Prime has said: Minister said. That was my understanding; is it also my “Cuts don’t turn you into a thief.” right hon. Friend’s understanding? Which of them does the right hon. Lady agree with?

Yvette Cooper: The Home Secretary will be immensely Yvette Cooper: I noticed the hon. Gentleman’s nerves grateful to my right hon. Friend the Chair of the Select when holding his piece of paper to read out what was Committee on Home Affairs for desperately trying to clearly another Whips’ question, but I say to hon. create some consistency between what the Prime Minister Members that serious issues need to be addressed in this and the Home Secretary have said. I will certainly give House about what the Government are doing, and what the Home Secretary the opportunity to confirm whether this House should be doing, to address the serious my right hon. Friend is correct and in what circumstances criminality that is taking place. 1149 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1150

[Yvette Cooper] for us the Opposition’s policy on police cuts? Do the Opposition still support police cuts of 12%, or do they Let us deal with the wider problems this raises about want a review of or a moratorium on that? Will she resources for our police and the views that are being guarantee police numbers or will she not? expressed to us—and, I am sure, to Members on the Government Benches in their constituencies—about the Yvette Cooper: The Home Secretary will know, because scale and pace of the policing cuts across the country. we have had this debate in the House many times, that The Prime Minister claimed that he was making only we believe it is important to give the police enough 6% cuts, but he used cash figures, not real figures, when resources to sustain the number of police officers. We he knows that inflation is high and that the cuts set out maintain that position now. in the spending review—according to the Treasury’s The HMIC gave its view that the police could sustain figures, not mine—were for a 20% cut in the Government’s a reduction of about 12% in their budget over the police budget. The independent Her Majesty’s inspectorate course of the Parliament. The former Home Secretary, of constabulary report makes it clear that 16,000 police my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon officers are going as a result—the equivalent of every Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), also said that his one of the police officers on London’s streets last night assessment when he was in office was that 12% could be will go. sustained over the course of the Parliament and that Any of us who were on London’s streets last night that would allow the police to sustain the police numbers will know quite how many police officers were on the that we believe are so important. Instead, the Government streets of our capital. We have heard the Prime Minister are cutting by 20% and the steepest cuts are in the first and the Home Secretary tell us that front-line, visible two years. They are cutting more in the first few years policing will not be hit, but, with respect, it is being hit than we would have done over the course of a Parliament. already. The HMIC has confirmed that front-line officers That is why the police, despite making immense efficiencies will be lost this year. The Prime Minister himself used a and taking immense actions to deliver savings, are finding figure of 7,000 officers in back-office jobs, but 16,000 that the number of police officers is being cut. That will be cut. includes some of the most experienced police officers in We agree that the police need to make savings and the country, who are being forced to take early retirement efficiencies, that they need to do more to get police against their wishes—officers whom we need and whose officers out on to the streets and that they can sustain experience and contributions we need now. sensible reductions in their budgets, but the cuts set out by the Government go too far, too fast, and we do not Several hon. Members rose— agree that now is the time to cut 16,000 police officers across the country. Yvette Cooper: I ask the hon. Members who are standing in a frenzy to listen. If they will not listen to Miss McIntosh rose— the members of their Government who are clearly starting to have doubts, or to Opposition Members who Yvette Cooper: I will give way to the hon. Lady, if she have been saying for many months how dangerous it is can tell me whether she supports cutting 16,000 police to make such large cuts in the policing budget, will they officers at a time like this. at least listen to their constituents, who are deeply concerned about the decisions that they are taking and Miss McIntosh: I think the right hon. Lady would the scale of the policing cuts that the Government have agree that recent events have united those of us living in announced? The public know that more officers on the the north and the south and in rural and urban areas. streets of the capital have made them safer, and they do May I take her back to the time of the previous not want those cuts now. The Liberal Democrats have Government, who introduced a raft of community support raised an interesting point: if the Government called a officers with no power of arrest and had a load of halt to American-style police and crime commissioners, police officers with the power of arrest filling in forms? that alone would save £100 million that could go back Does she think that that was the best use of police into policing and restoring confidence. resources at that time? Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Given the right Yvette Cooper: I think it was right to increase the hon. Lady’s great concern about the number of police number of police officers and to introduce police officers, will she join me in congratulating Cambridgeshire community support officers. PCSOs have done an excellent constabulary? The chief constable has committed to job across the country, working with police officers and ensuring that he has more police constables at the end communities, and have been an important part of of this Parliament than at the beginning, and he is addressing some of the tensions, concerns and difficulties already recruiting. Will she congratulate the constabulary that we have faced in the past few days. on that, as well as on its performance over the last few Today, the Prime Minister again ruled out reopening days? the police budget. I implore him to think again. The newspapers report that Ministers now have doubts, and Yvette Cooper: The HMIC’s independent assessment I urge him to listen to them. of Cambridgeshire’s position is that it will lose around 80 officers over the course of the Parliament and the Mrs May: The right hon. Lady is making much of a spending review. It will need to have a discussion with point about the whole issue of police cuts that was the HMIC, which has carried out a detailed assessment, made by a number of her right hon. and hon. Friends not simply of what will happen in the first two years, during questions to the Prime Minister. Will she clarify but of the consequences over the course of the Parliament. 1151 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1152

Several hon. Members rose— Most recently, my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) did so in her Adjournment debate, Yvette Cooper: I need to make progress, because hon. and the Home Secretary will know that other Members Members all want to make serious points. This is a time have done so, too. The Home Secretary needs to move for us to have a debate about the events of the past few fast on this. In June 2010—14 months ago—an independent days, and I want to give Members across the House the report by the independent inspectors commissioned by opportunity to speak. the Youth Justice Board on the rise of gang culture was We need to look at the wider action that is essential published. It said that a national strategy to deal with for maintaining order, and to see why so many people gang culture among under-18s was urgently needed. It became involved in rioting and criminal action. Boots set out specific measures for the police, the prisons and on the streets are not enough to sustain safe communities others. That was 14 months ago. for the long term; that requires all of us to do our bit to In March, my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling stand up for law and order. It requires parents to ask (Vernon Coaker) asked for the Government’s response, where their children are, and where that new pair of but the record in Hansard shows that the Government trainers has come from. It requires teachers, neighbours, were still considering how to respond. Clearly, it is a classmates, friends and family, social workers, youth concern that there have been delays in responding to the workers and the neighbourhood police—each one of report, but we have the recommendations available now. us—to ask what we can do to stop people getting I urge the Home Secretary to implement them urgently caught up in gangs or frenzies of criminal activity. and to use them as the basis for further work that I hope We should ask why some people had so little respect we can support. I hope that action on gang culture is for the rule of law and for others in society, and why something that we can agree on across the House. some people felt that they had nothing to lose by Indeed, I believe that there is much that we can agree breaking the law in such a way. We should look at on, including action in the criminal justice system and respect, responsibility and aspirations, but asking those support for the police. questions is not about excusing individuals—quite the There are still four areas in which we ask the Government reverse. Nothing excuses the way people behaved. It is to think again. The first is setting up a proper commission not about avoiding justice or appropriate punishment; of inquiry to look at the wider problems and why the those engaged in criminal acts must take personal riots happened. Secondly, they must look at the immediate responsibility for them, and they must feel the full force resource pressures faced by the Met and other forces as of the law. It is about preventing further crime and a result of policing the rioting and criminal activity. disorder. We will have that debate in more detail in Thirdly, there is the wider issue of resources and the future. I would caution against over-simplistic approaches. serious need to reopen the policing spending review. I agree that more should be done on parenting, but that Fourthly, they should make it easier, not harder, for the will be harder if family intervention projects and Sure police and councils to use CCTV, which has been so Start are cut. I agree that more needs to be done about important. gang culture, which has been getting worse. I began by saying that these are sober circumstances. We have seen awful events. But we cannot just despair Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): South Wales, that nothing is to be done, and we must not. When and Wales as a whole, has been fortunate in experiencing street crime became a serious problem 10 years ago, we no rioting. In fact, the devolved Administrations collectively seemed to face an epidemic. Action was taken by the did not have the experience that England had. Does my Government and police. Prevention work was done and right hon. Friend agree that it is most important to look work was undertaken through the courts. It made a at why forces in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland difference, and street crime came down. It is possible to successfully held their communities together and have, tackle criminality, to work together to bring crime in partnership with their communities, avoided the riots down. That is what must happen. We have seen crime that England has had, despite south Wales facing fall; we must do so again. £47 million-worth of cuts over this Parliament? People I spoke to after the rioting and the violence told me not that they are ashamed of their country but Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend makes an important that they are still proud of our communities, our towns point about why some areas fell victim to looting and and our cities. The shop owners to whom I spoke had criminality on such a scale, and others did not. A series posters in their windows saying “I love Sandwell”. of important questions need to be properly addressed. People want to stand together to support their communities The Home Secretary raised some of them—for example, and to stand against this awful violence and crime. We the speed and nature of the police response, and the role now in this House must stand together with them to of social media. That is why we Labour Members do so. believe that there is a case for a special commission of inquiry that can ask the questions that a Select Committee The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George might not be able to ask because of its departmental Young): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In view of the remit. That needs to be properly done to give those level of interest in our debate, and after discussion communities that have been most affected a stronger through the usual channels, it is my intention at 6 o’clock voice in this debate about what has happened and what not to move the Business of the House motion in the needs to happen now. name of the Prime Minister which would have terminated I welcome what the Home Secretary has announced our proceedings at 7. It is my intention to move an about action on gang culture. London Members have alternative motion to enable us to continue until 8 o’clock been warning for some time about the problems that to enable another 12 Members to take part in this it is creating and the fact that it has been increasing. debate. 1153 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1154

Mr Speaker: The Leader of the House has just warmed thing is trying to sort out the underlying issues that led the cockles of my heart. I am absolutely delighted to to the behaviour we saw. Just because there is absolutely hear what he has just said, and I hope that it will be well no excuse for what happened does not mean that we in received on both sides of the House. I thank him. I the House should not try to understand. remind the House that there is a five-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions, but that is subject to review, Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): The and it is likely to be reviewed downwards, not upwards. hon. Gentleman is making a powerful speech on behalf of his constituents. Does he agree that the deployment 4.59 pm of 16,000 officers in the capital meant that yobs were off the street, and that the Government’s proposed plans to Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I have the cut police numbers mean that yobbos will be on our great honour of representing the town where I have streets? lived all my life. Thousands of public servants, businessmen and people who work in the community and voluntary sector day by day do their best to make our town a Gavin Barwell: I want the level of visible policing to better place to live. On Monday night a few hundred continue. I recognise that we have to cut police budgets people did their worst to undo all that good work to because of the economic position we face, but I want attack our community. Shops and people’s homes above the current level of visible policing to continue. the shops were burned out in old town, west Croydon and New Addington, including Reeves, an iconic family Mrs Moon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? business that survived the great depression and the blitz. More than 50 people were forced from their homes. Gavin Barwell: No, I cannot give way because other More than 200 businesses were devastated and our tram people want to speak. system was put out of action. Let us be clear: there is no I do not pretend to have all the answers to the justification whatever for such organised criminality. long-term problems. On Tuesday night, I had to go Contrary to some reports, those responsible were not home and explain to my eight-year-old son why people all young and they came from a wide range of ethnic behave in this way. It seems that the choice being offered backgrounds. They represent only a tiny minority. The is that this is about either morality or poverty, but real Croydon is the public servants: the outnumbered elements of both are involved. There is an issue about police officers and the firemen who risked serious injury upbringing. Too many young people in my town are to protect people; the council officers who the next brought up in highly unstable environments, without morning tried to house the homeless; the hundreds of parental role models. Many parents feel they no longer people who turned out to clear up our streets; the people have the power to discipline their children, and there are who have pledged money to help businesses rebuild; the clear issues about discipline in schools, which the Secretary businesses that provided clothing for those who lost of State for Education is trying to sort out. Too many everything in the fires; and the people of New Addington young people have no respect for other people or authority. who turned out to defend their shopping centre. Our town They are very conscious of their rights but not of their is not perfect, but we are proud of it and we are united in responsibilities to others. Sadly, in this great city of ours our determination that we will not let the wreckers win. there are people who are marginalised and who feel that What has happened over the past few days is a big they do not have access to the huge opportunities that test for the Government. For too long in this country many Londoners enjoy. We need to address all those we have been too soft on those who break the law and issues, however uncomfortable they are for those of us too tolerant of those who have no respect for other on the centre right or centre left of politics. people. My constituents are looking for four things. The It is no coincidence that these events took place in the first is to restore order. The Prime Minister came to summer holidays. We need to make sure that people Croydon on Tuesday and I am deeply grateful. He have something productive to do when they are not at promised extra police and different tactics and he delivered school or when they are out of work. on that, but those numbers and those tactics need to continue and we need to know why they were not in Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): As my hon. place on Monday. I also welcome what he said in the Friend will recall, I have a faint connection with Croydon House about fresh powers on curfews and on modern Central. social network technology and on powers for the police My hon. Friend’s second and fourth points are united. in relation to people who cover their faces. One of the problems is the feral children aspect. It is all Secondly, people want criminals brought to justice. very well to talk about parenting, but they have no CCTV played a crucial role in identifying who was parents of any value, and conviction would not keep responsible and I hope that Members on the Treasury them away from crime. Bench will take note of that. People want those responsible to be properly punished and to make reparation to Gavin Barwell: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. those they have damaged. They want those who have There is a great charity in Croydon called Lives Not committed these crimes not to have access to taxpayers’ Knives that tries to help people out of gang culture. money in the form of benefits. They want those who are Many of the former gang members whom I meet have council tenants evicted, so that decent people on the come from backgrounds with no parental role models. waiting list get a home instead. They want those who Unaccompanied asylum-seeking children have been passed are not British citizens removed from this country. from foster home to foster home, and people have been The third thing relates to compensation, and I warmly abused while in care. That is absolutely an issue. I am welcome what the Prime Minister had to say about not sure whether the hon. Member for Nottingham compensation for residents and businesses. The fourth North (Mr Allen) is in the House, but we must consider 1155 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1156 intervening earlier when young people first show signs kind of violent and destructive behaviour witnessed this of getting into difficulty, rather than waiting until there week, and as we do so, I urge hon. Members on both are real problems. sides to avoid reaching for easy slogans and solutions. My real hope is that something positive will come out These riots cannot be explained away simply by poverty of what has happened over the past few days and that or cuts to public services. That the vast majority of we will see in this country not just measures for a few young men from poor areas did not take part in the days to restore public order, but a completely fresh violence is proof of that. Many young men showed approach to how we tackle crime, how we treat our restraint and respect for others, because they have grown young people, how we interact with them, how we bring up with social boundaries and a moral code. They have them up, how we listen to what they have to say and been taught how to delay gratification and to empathise how we try to build a stronger, more cohesive society in with others rather than terrorise them. Those values this country. were shaped by parents, teachers and our neighbours. My constituents sent me a clear message before I came to the House today. They are not looking for party Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): The political bickering, squabbling or point scoring; they right hon. Gentleman and I are both members of the are looking for Members to show some leadership, to all-party group on fatherhood. Does he agree that there look into the underlying problems, to restore order and is more we can do to encourage fathers to be committed to find a long-term solution. I hope that all Members to the mothers of their children and to their children? will focus on exactly that point as we go forward in the debate. Mr Lammy: I certainly agree that that is the major issue this country must confront, but a “Grand Theft 5.6 pm Auto” culture that glamorises violence must also be Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): The events of confronted; a consumer culture fixated on brands that last week started with the death of Mark Duggan, one we wear rather than who we are and what we achieve of my constituents, during a police operation. In the must be confronted; a gang culture with warped notions immediate aftermath of the incident, there were reports of loyalty, respect and honour must also be confronted. of an exchange of fire between Mr Duggan and the A civilised society should be policed not just by uniformed police. We now know that two shots were fired and that officers, but by notions of pride and shame and of they both came from police weapons. A grieving family responsibility toward others. In this House and beyond, and my constituents deserve to know the truth about we have some deep thinking to do about what that means. what happened that night. The IPCC investigation must Although that is true, there is another side to the be thorough; it must be open; and it must be seen to be story. On Tuesday, the Prime Minister warned that independent. those involved in the rioting were risking their own Other serious questions need answering. Why did the futures. I am afraid the problem is far greater than that. Duggan family first hear about the death of their son Those lashing out—randomly, cruelly and violently—feel not from a police officer, but when the news was broadcast that they have nothing to lose. They do not feel bound on national television? Why, when they arrived at Tottenham by the moral code that the rest of society adheres to; police station to ask questions and to stage a peaceful they do not feel part of the rest of society. We cannot protest, were they made to wait for five hours before a live in a society where the banks are too big to fail, but senior police officer was made available to them? Why, whole neighbourhoods are allowed to sink without when that peaceful protest was hijacked by violent trace. The problems of those neighbourhoods have not elements, were a few skirmishes allowed to become a emerged overnight, but the events of the past week are a full-scale riot, with far-reaching consequences? Mistakes wake-up call. have been made by the Metropolitan police, and this Following the race riots 10 years ago, the Cantle must be subject to a full public inquiry. report warned of white and black communities living “parallel lives”. Today the same is true, but the polarisation Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Will the right hon. is not between black and white; it is between those who Gentleman give way? have stake in society and those who do not; those who can see a future through education and those who Mr Lammy: I will not give way; forgive me. cannot; those who can imagine doing a job that is On Sunday morning, I stood amid the burning embers respected and well paid and those who cannot; those of Tottenham High road. There is no connection between who might one day own their own home and those who the death of a young man and the torching of the will not. homes of Stuart Radose and 25 other families in the I repeat that nothing justifies what we have seen this Carpetright building. There is no connection between week, but I remember what it means to grow up poor, to the treatment of the Duggan family and Niche, the live without a father as a role model, to feel frustrated landlord of the Spirit of Tottenham, being held at and angry about my circumstances, to want to lash out knifepoint while his pub was ransacked. I could go on. and to consider the idea of picking up a bottle and This violence was criminal, and we condemn it utterly. joining in with the crowd. I was steered away from those Tottenham has brave and very resilient people—I things by my mother, by an elder brother, by my pastor, have no doubt that we will get through this together—but by great teachers, role models and youth workers, and I as the TV cameras begin to move out, I urge the thank them all for that, but I was also steered away by Government and the House not to forget the people of the promise of something different—by the idea that, Tottenham. In the House and beyond, we must also one day, I might go to university and get a decent job. begin a much more difficult discussion: we must address That idea is what we have to realise for so many people why boys and girls aged as young as 11 engage in the in the coming weeks, months and years. 1157 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1158

5.12 pm know better—some professionals, some people from outside; the teaching assistant, the graduate—but the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) serious contributors to trouble in our communities, (LD): The events in south London follow what the right who are no good at all, are the people on whom we need hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) has so clearly to focus. Every one of the 32 borough commanders in described. In Walworth and Peckham, on the Old Kent London will say that there are about 30, 40 or 50 people road, in Rotherhithe and in many of our other communities, who lead the local gangs and whose pictures are in the we saw on Tuesday night scenes that none of us can ever back of the police stations, and we need to concentrate have expected to see. There was some absolutely despicable on them. behaviour—people being pulled off their motorbikes and scooters, and women driving alone whose car windows When MPs break the law and fiddle their expenses, or were smashed and whose car, with them inside, was when police officers receive money from journalists, we raided for its contents. In the evening, we saw parents have to understand that there are other questions out with their children—women with their youngsters—going there and that greed applies across the board, but those in with the younger people to take things out of shops were not the presenting issues last week. I want to set on the Walworth road. People were crying on the street out where we need to go now. Above all, we need to because they had just been promised a job in a shop support the businesses. Our high streets need to be back that was being broken up and might not be able to carry to work. We need to shop in our high streets, support on in business. the small traders and make sure they have the necessary national support. Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): Unlike People want to give, and there ought to be systems so many other subjects that the House debates, the whereby they can contribute to the statutory funds. If aberration of these events link north and south. In my we have Disasters Emergency Committee appeals for constituency, in Bacup, there was a riot by disaffected east Africa, we can have an appeal, if people want to young people. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me give, for north London, south London, Liverpool, that it is time for the police to take off the kid gloves, to Birmingham or Manchester too. Additional help may use the full force of the law and, where possible, to be needed for local councils and the local police holding prosecute and imprison those who have engaged in such the additional people in custody.There must be a willingness disgraceful behaviour in both the north and south of to report the culprits and, as we heard earlier, the media this country? must hand over the information that they have. It is no good standing there and recording it, and not offering Simon Hughes: That is a clear view shared across the information that would allow people to be dealt with. through House. We have a common message that the We need to make sure that we tackle the causes of law must be applied fully and without reservation, but I continuing violence. As was rightly pointed out in an qualify that in one respect: it is even more important intervention, two thirds of those who offend come from that those who are the role models—the adults, the families where there has been a history of offending. It parents and the serial criminals—are caught and dealt is generational and we need to recognise those dysfunctional with without compromise. The 10-year-old, the nine- families where the activity is repeated. The right hon. year-old, the eight-year-old, the follower, the person Member for Tottenham has often made the case that we who got on their BlackBerry the message saying, “Come need to recognise families where youngsters are taken down here, it’s kicking off down here”—yes, of course, out of school and out of the family early, because they if they give in, they are to blame, as are their parents for become the ones most at risk. We need to support the not knowing where their children are going at 6, 7, 8, parents, because some of them find it very difficult 9 or 10 o’clock at night. But the older youngsters, and indeed. We need to make sure that our housing strategies the ones who are over 16, 17, 18 or 21, particularly need and our youth services are supported, and that the to be seen in our courts and dealt with. mobile phone industry helps. We can recover soon, but Public opinion is clear that these disturbances were we have to stand together and support our communities not caused by this Government or the previous in doing so. Government, or by the capitalist system. Public opinion is clear that they were simply criminal activity. The 5.19 pm borough commander in Southwark made it clear that Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): when people who have been nicked and are now being I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the questioned in Southwark were asked why they had debate, and to put before the House the experiences and committed the offences, they did not put up some the views of my constituents on what they have suffered political argument for their action. They were clear that over the past few days. When the problems started in my it was for the trainers, the televisions, the kit in the constituency on Monday night, we saw copycat criminality, windows. They were clear that this was criminality. mindless vandalism and looting. This behaviour appalled It is also clear that over the past few days there were and sickened everyone in my constituency and Birmingham very few house burglaries in Southwark. The people as a whole, and on Tuesday morning residents and who were normally doing the burglaries were out on the traders woke up to unprecedented damage and destruction, street kicking in the windows. I am grateful that the and a resolve to work together to clean up the affected Home Secretary and the Prime Minister have accepted areas and make our city fit for business again. However, that the serious serial criminals, often the gang members, throughout Tuesday tensions were running high, and had a truce—between the gangs—over the past few people came out in the evening on Dudley road and days. That was recorded and it can be seen. They Soho road, and in other parts of my constituency, to decided not to fight each other, but to go in and take on protect their local businesses and to prevent any further the community. Some people joined them who should damage. 1159 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1160

In the early hours of Wednesday morning, events He again appealed for calm. He told the people gathered took a tragic turn as three of my constituents, Shazad that he wanted the police to have the support that they Ali, Abdul Musavir and Haroon Jahan, from the Winson needed in order to find the people who murdered his Green area, were murdered while protecting businesses son. His interventions throughout the day yesterday and property on the Dudley road in a hit-and-run were instrumental in maintaining calm overnight. He incident. Scores of people were present at the scene and set the tone and the community followed. I am proud of many others arrived in the immediate aftermath. The everyone who last night prevented any trouble from men were taken to City hospital, where a further crowd occurring, who maintained a peaceful vigil that was gathered, concerned and devastated at what had happened. dignified and ordered, and who heeded the words of Winson Green is an incredibly tight-knit community Tariq Jahan and the families. I appeal to everyone in the in the heart of Birmingham. The local community do community to continue this calm and responsible attitude not just consider themselves to be each other’s neighbours over the coming days too. In particular, I reiterate the and friends, but rather they consider themselves family. vital importance of working with the police to make Everyone is an aunt or an uncle, a brother or a sister. It sure that there is no further trouble. is the best feature of this community, which faces significant I conclude by echoing the words of Tariq Jahan. daily challenges. Understandably, given the loss of three Yesterday, addressing the crowds on Dudley road, he of their own, people were distraught and emotions and said: passions were running high. “I lost my son…Step forward if you want to lose your sons. I was involved in many meetings yesterday, which Otherwise, calm down and go home”. brought together community leaders, elders, inter-faith I cannot put it any better than that, and I urge everyone groups and the police. All were keen to express their to remember these words over the coming days and anger, anguish and upset at the events, and sought to weeks. talk about what had happened and how to prevent any further trouble. One of the most important and difficult 5.24 pm meetings that took place yesterday was between the Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Ealing police and the local community. Many of those in town centre was smashed up badly on Monday night attendance witnessed the horrific events of the night and the damage was devastating and heart-breaking to before, or were there for the aftermath. Concerns were see. It was also terrifying for those people who found raised at that meeting about the police presence, police themselves innocently caught up when the mayhem response and police numbers, as well as the delay in kicked off. A quiet suburb was literally turned into a getting ambulances to the scene, and other practical war zone for one dreadful night. A 68-year-old man is and operational issues. lying critically ill in hospital after being attacked near It is important that once we have seen off the threat Ealing Broadway for trying to stop some youths setting of further violence in the area these concerns are thoroughly a litter bin on fire. Frankly, we are all still finding this reviewed and that the police work with the community hard to get our heads around. to learn lessons from what happened and the response However, since then the community has shown to it. Given the level of anger and the potential for remarkable spirit in the way it has pulled together to further tension, it was important and significant that reclaim the streets. A fantastic operation, organised by these concerns were raised with the police by the local the council and enthusiastically supported by local residents, community directly and at a grass-roots level, and this businesses and emergency services, had cleaned virtually must continue to happen. It was also made clear that the whole place up by lunchtime the next day, which keeping the people of Winson Green updated on the was heart-warming. People were buying new brooms to murder investigation is of the utmost importance. We join in. I spent all of Tuesday meeting many of those know that one man has been arrested and is being who had been caught up in the nightmare and was questioned by police in connection with the incident, moved by their courage and determination to get on and West Midlands police inform me that further arrests with their lives. are possible. I have heard various accounts of what happened on I was also able to meet and talk to the families of the the night, but there is a thread running through what deceased yesterday. Words cannot describe what they most people have told me: they feel that they did not get are feeling right now, having lost young men in their the policing they needed. I understand their frustration, prime. All three were well known to everyone and were but it is important to say that this is not a debate about much loved. I pay tribute to the families of all three cuts in police numbers. In London, police numbers are men. They have behaved with dignity and calm in the actually going up and the borough commander in Ealing face of truly tragic circumstances. has told me that he is happy with his police numbers. In particular, I pay tribute to Tariq Jahan, father of The concern is about the deployment on the night. I Haroon Jahan. We will all have seen him on our TV must put on the record my admiration for the way the screens yesterday, facing the media and the public having police were prepared to put themselves in harm’s way in just lost his son. His dignity, his composure and his order to protect the public as best they could. heartfelt plea for calm were truly humbling for all of us working to prevent any further trouble in the area Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I thank yesterday. Not only did he face the media, but he made my hon. Friend for giving way and for being such a his pleas directly to the community. He arrived on feisty champion for her constituents. Will she congratulate the scene of the public meeting that took place yesterday the 22 officers from Derbyshire police force who had afternoon and addressed the crowd who had gathered been brought down to help the Metropolitan police? outside because they were unable to get in due to When they got the call at 2 o’clock in the morning, they the space constraints. Tensions were running very high. packed their bags and came straight down. 1161 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1162

Angie Bray: Yes, of course. The police have shown from the Prime Minister earlier about how we will help themselves to be really wonderful, particularly in being them to do just that, but we in Ealing want to know prepared to get together and help wherever there is that, if trouble springs again, the police will be in a trouble. position to respond effectively and decisively with public I also think that this country needs to have a debate support, and that those troublemakers who have brought about what policing it wants. As the Home Secretary such misery to our community will be brought to justice said earlier, the police are often damned if they do and and given the punishment that they deserve, just as the damned if they don’t. Too often we hear criticism that Prime Minister confirmed to me this morning. on occasion they are too heavy-handed, and next they are accused of being too soft. It is up to the public, their 5.30 pm elected representatives and the police to have a debate Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): and decide exactly what policing we want. Policing in The Home Secretary, in her speech, said that the tide this country is performed by consent. The police need has turned. I wish that she was right, because the fact is our consent if they are to go in and provide a slightly that the rioting of the past few days has abated, partly more robust response, which is the sort of response that due to excellent police action and partly due to the I am happy to see and for which they would certainly weather, but it could come back at any time and under have my consent. any pretext, so we must prepare for that and prepare to change the context in which the rioting took place. Bob Stewart: One of the real problems is that the Of course, as the Prime Minister said, teachers have a police are extremely concerned that if they act out of a role, but it is not their principal role; of course, parents defensive position and go forward while holding the have a fundamental role, but many of the young people crowd or watching for evidence, they might find themselves who have behaved in such a dreadful manner over the in the dock. We must support them utterly and completely past few days come from dysfunctional families, perhaps and say that from now on when they act in good faith with single parents, perhaps with a mother or a father they will have our total support, unlike what happened who is unable to help because of their own personal after the G20 riots. problems; and, of course, the police have their role, and in our city of Manchester we have outstandingly good Angie Bray: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. They police, for which we are grateful. But that is not enough. need our consent and the confidence to be able to go In Manchester, this is not our first experience of into any situation knowing that they have the authority urban rioting. Thirty years ago there was rioting in to act of our behalf to do whatever is necessary to Toxteth in Liverpool as well as rioting in Moss Side, enforce the law, which is what they are there to do. In adjacent to my constituency. At that time, Michael Ealing, we welcome the extra police officers we have Heseltine was Secretary of State for the Environment, I had on the streets on the past few nights and the extra was his shadow, and we discussed those issues. Michael measures announced today by the Prime Minister and Heseltine realised and understood that it was a question the Home Secretary. not only of criminality, but of urban and social regeneration. The other big question everyone was asking is how He went to Liverpool, lived there for three weeks and parents can allow their young kids to be out on the came back with plans for urban and social regeneration. streets after dark, knowing that there is trouble around We condemn the people who have committed those and seeming not to care whether they get caught up in crimes over the past few days, but, until the context in it. It is all very well demanding more of Government which their lives are lived is changed, condemning them and more of the police, but we should also demand will not stop them or others like them doing it again. To more responsibility from certain parents who just do do so, we need—by the Government and by the rest of not seem to care. So often it is their communities that us—social reclamation projects that bring people into take the hit, with businesses and shops shutting and society in order to be part of society. jobs being lost. We in my constituency, for example, have a project What happened in Ealing at the hands of these feral called RECLAIM, in which young people from troubled young people, some of them only 11-years-old, contrasts homes and young people who have been offenders are so sharply with what I saw only a week ago, when I mentored, made active, given jobs, given a voice and spent a morning with 60 16-year-olds who had just given a social conscience—and it works. I urge the spent a week up north building a team together on an Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and the Secretary Outward Bound training course. Last week they were of State for Education to come to Manchester and to back in west London talking about how they would look at RECLAIM to see how kids who have gone plan a fundraising campaign for local charities and wrong or who might go wrong can be put on the right organise some social projects for their local community. path, made useful members of society and gain control It was the first year of piloting for the new national of their own decisions and destiny. citizens service summer programme. It was truly inspiring. Clearly, the more we can involve people in such programmes, Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): I happened to be the better our chance of keeping them off the streets watching events the other night with my 87-year-old and out of trouble. grandfather, who was born into abject poverty—seven Nowhere that has come under attack over the past living in a two-bedroom terrace cottage with an outside few days ago has deserved it; Ealing certainly has not. It loo that was a hole in the garden. I turned to him and is a wonderful place to live and work, and it is already said, “Did you ever think of rioting? Did you ever think back in business, although a number of shops and small of stealing the latest gadget?” and he said, “No.” Why is businesses will need all the help that they can get to get it that in the 1930s poverty was not an excuse for poor back on their feet. I very much welcome what we heard behaviour, but apparently in the 21st century it is? 1163 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1164

Sir Gerald Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman just does House should give our great police forces the backing not understand. The overwhelming majority of people that they need. We should not be critical when it suits us living in poverty and deprivation and in dysfunctional and praise them when it suits us, but stand behind them homes will not commit crimes or turn antisocial, but the whole time. Will mistakes be made? Without any some will. There is no point in pretending that because question, yes they will, but that is something that we most will not, all will not. have to deal with and cope with in a rational way when We have to do something about this because our it happens. society is being damaged. I represent a deprived constituency I do not believe that it is my place to tell judges how where people are proud of the area in which they live. I to sentence people, but I do believe that when anyone is want to make everybody who lives in my constituency, found guilty of crime, the clear message must be sent to in our cities and in our country proud, but to do that we others that crime does not pay. We are not talking about have to do the kind of things that RECLAIM is doing anybody other than thugs, criminals and looters. That is in Manchester. We have to ensure that people understand not to say that the right hon. Member for Manchester, that they have a choice. Wanting to steal does not mean Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) was wrong to say that we that one has to steal. Wanting some commercial object should not disregard people—of course we should not does not mean that one has to go out and take it under do that. Equally, if someone has done something wrong, the guise of a social protest. We have to do these things whatever their background—whether they are a millionaire’s because there is no point in simply having a blanket daughter or come from poverty—they must pay the condemnation of young people who go wrong. Our job price for that crime. and our responsibility is not simply to punish them We must also consider several related issues. The when they go wrong, but to try to ensure that they do other night—it was about 5 o’clock in the morning—I not go wrong again and that others do not follow them. decided to go around my constituency to see what was We must seize this moment. We have not got much time, happening. I visited the sports shop that had just, sadly, but we can make this society work better. had its window smashed and its stock stolen, and I saw a group of youths. I do not know whether I was mad or Several hon. Members rose— possessed—some people would say probably both—but I stopped and asked them what they were doing. They Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. There were not doing anything wrong—it comes back to the are a lot of Members who want to speak and we want to point that not everyone is doing something wrong—but call all of them. So I ask Members to do a little less I gave them some advice, which, I am delighted to say, intervening and to shorten their speeches. I will drop they took. I said, “Go home, because you’re going the limit to four minutes to give everybody a good to get nicked if you stay out. You won’t do yourself, chance of contributing. your parents or your community any favours. Go home now.” 5.37 pm We were quite fortunate in Ilford North—we had Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): I start by paying violence and problems, but it was not as bad as in tribute to my borough commander, Sue Williams, and neighbouring Ilford South. My neighbour, the hon. her Metropolitan police team, who have done a wonderful Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) has gone to a job in difficult circumstances in the London borough of community meeting today. We agreed that I would Redbridge. I also pay tribute to my local council in speak and that he would go to the meeting. I pay tribute Redbridge, including the council leader, Councillor Keith to him for his work in Ilford South, where things were a Prince, the deputy leader and leader of the Liberal lot worse, and where he made a difference. That is what Democrat group, Councillor Ian Bond, and the leader we are all about in the House—making a difference. On of the opposition, Councillor Bob Littlewood of the this occasion, let us have no political point scoring. Let Labour party. They have united, with no party politics us all make a difference together for the sake of what is whatever, to do what is best with the police force for best for our constituents. Redbridge. That is a lesson that we should all learn for the sake of our constituents. 5.41 pm Over the past few days, I have visited the Co-op in Barkingside, the Tesco in Manford way in Hainault and Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): On Monday, the JD Sports in Newbury Park. I also visited a gentleman my constituency was the scene of violent disorder. Cars whose livelihood had been burned to the ground. He is and bins were set on fire, shops were looted and there a market trader and his van was set on fire with his were ugly clashes between police and rioters. The windows stock in it. Those businesses have lost business, but of my constituency office were smashed, the door was more importantly the staff were scared. Each and every kicked in and computer equipment was stolen. However, one of us in this House owes it to them to have a compared with those who have lost their homes and rational debate about how we will rectify and tackle the businesses, I was one of the lucky ones. situation. I first learnt of those events as I sat in a New York What I believe is important is that we take the handcuffs taxi, on my way to start my honeymoon. As I listened to off our police. The wonderful police forces of our great voicemails—one from my alarm company and two from country should be allowed to do what they think they the police—I felt physically sick. Were my staff okay? need to do, whether the powers are given to them now Had people been hurt? What was going to happen next? or are already in place. If they think that water cannon As I spoke on the phone to Lewisham’s police commander, are necessary, they should choose that. If they think I thought back to our conversations during my first that plastic bullets are necessary, they should choose year as an MP. They ranged from my concern about the that. Most importantly, each and every one of us in this popularity and accessibility of internet footage glorifying 1165 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1166

[Heidi Alexander] congratulations to the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on her recent wedding and that I am gangs and knives to his concern about the increasing very sorry that her honeymoon was interrupted? number of 13 and 14-year-olds coming into contact I made a solemn promise to my constituents at half- with the police for the first time. I thought back to the past 9 on Sunday 7 August, having spent four hours television coverage of the protests in central London witnessing what was happening to our constituency. about cuts to the education maintenance allowance. That promise was simply that at the first opportunity I They were largely peaceful, but stayed in my memory would come to this House so that Members could hear because of the frightening images of a minority—a first hand what had happened and the views of my small groups of teenagers, faces masked by hoods and constituents. I will therefore focus entirely on that in the scarves, looking for a fight. few minutes that I have to speak. It is important that Some argue that this week’s riots are the direct product those views are represented, because they are also reflected of Government cuts. I do not buy that; it is too simplistic. elsewhere. Yes, some youth centres have closed; yes, young people At around 6 o’clock in the evening, as youths—generally are angry about tuition fees, but the people out rioting under the age of 25—gathered in our town centre, it on Monday are, by and large, not those who use our became clear that this had been built up by social media youth clubs, or, I suspect, those who are re-evaluating a throughout the day. The first outbreak occurred at university education because of increased tuition fees. about 7 o’clock, when those youths—150 of them—took No, the riots are primarily the result of disaffected, to the high street, having gathered together, and then marginalised youths looking for a ruck. They are the started their rampage down Church street in Enfield result of mindless idiots who capitalised on an opportunity town. Sadly, although that outbreak was contained to nick some trainers or a plasma TV from Argos. relatively quickly by good police work, it led to the Although the catalyst for the riots in Tottenham may destruction of some very good shops that have been have been anger at the police, I suspect that the person there for more than 30 years. Mantella, the jewellery who smashed my constituency office window did not store, which has been a sole trader for more than even know who Mark Duggan was. I do not believe that 30 years in Enfield, lost more than £40,000 of stock. Government cuts or a widespread failure in police- Pearsons, one of the few independent retailers with a community relations are solely to blame for the riots. I long legacy in Enfield, was damaged front and back. think that they are as much about kids growing up in And what was stolen? It was the good quality leather households where no one gives a damn about what they handbags. With a clear target in mind, high-quality are up to. They are as much about the glorification of goods ware taken. violence in our society as anything else. We lost many, many stores down our high street, but Having said all that, we must ask ourselves how the at that point it was not over. For about an hour, the climate of anger and aggression has built up among youths increased their numbers. As I stood among some sections of the population in our inner city. What them, I heard them on their phones organising to bring role have Government—I include previous Governments— other people up and talking about what trains they played in creating the climate or allowing it to take should take. Indeed, some of them hinted at where they root? Youth unemployment in Lewisham is high. I have may be going next. been stopped more than once on the street by young people who are really angry about the fact that they Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): Is my hon. cannot find work. They are angry that the Government Friend aware that there were riots recently in a holiday are making it harder for them financially to stay on at resort in Spain where the police used very robust tactics? college. I am genuinely concerned that the Government, We have heard talk about water cannon, but they used perhaps unintentionally, are writing off a generation of rubber bullets. Does my hon. Friend think that if the young people who are growing up in our inner cities. people rampaging through his constituency had seen That is not to make an excuse for what has happened—there pictures on TV of rubber bullets or water cannon being is no excuse. The riots were shameful and those involved used, they would have had the incentive to go out and deserve everything that is coming to them. commit copycat crimes? I have two final points. We have to ask tough questions of the police. Was their response firm enough and quick Nick de Bois: My hon. Friend makes a good point. enough? Many of my constituents do not think that it Indeed, he reflects the views of my constituents in was. Secondly, we have to be very wary of those who advance of what I was going to say. Of course they were wish to portray this as a race issue. If anything, it is very distressed, and one of the questions—one of the about poverty—economic poverty, but also poverty of wishes—was, “Why do we not use water cannons or respect and poverty of responsibility. But I say again: rubber bullets?” They have proved effective in other there are no excuses for what has happened this week. locations. I accept that they are limited in their effectiveness The violence that we saw on our streets is a stain on the in some parts—indeed, around London it would be fabric of our society. Although we might wash it out difficult—but this case was a classic example of a wide over the next few weeks, the real challenge is in preventing town centre where dispersal could have been achieved, it from ever reappearing. which might have changed things. Indeed, I believe that the mere threat would also restrict any future activity. 5.45 pm Unfortunately, later in the evening, when the outburst grew more serious and the thugs attacked a police Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): May I use some vehicle containing a territorial support group unit, they valuable seconds and take this opportunity to enjoy a would disperse and run up nearby residential streets—quiet, decent moment in this difficult debate, and say detached streets. It was there, at around 9.30, that 30 or 1167 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1168

40 of them ran past me, pushing a 70-year-old man out The rioters in my city—probably some 400 people—are of the way. We were face to face with them in the garden not representative of young people across Manchester, of some neighbours, and as they ran past, with their which has thousands and thousands of young people. foul-mouthed abuse—these brave individuals, hidden That very limited number of criminals trashed the city behind their hoodies across their faces, clutching their of Manchester in a few short hours. The real comparison expensive mobile phones—they embarked on finding is with the bravery of the police, because individually their rather souped-up cars, which were parked in the and collectively the police took enormous risks on same residential street. This was no moral crusade. This behalf of the public and we should pay tribute to them. was not a campaign for social justice; this was simply The much-derided local government workers and criminal activity by those determined to profit from it. public servants worked through the night to ensure that My constituents are furious at what happened to their Manchester was fit for purpose the following morning. town, but what is worrying was the extreme arrogance Volunteerscame in from districts in and around Manchester of the individuals involved. They had no fear of being to sweep the streets and help out. They should be the recognised and no sense of right and wrong. As a contrast to the very limited number of rioters. It is right country we now have to address this issue, and we will that we seize the question of why these disastrous riots look at how to deal with such issues in the future. happened, because the reputation of our country and of my city has been seriously damaged, but we must Mr Burrowes: My hon. Friend describes the high point out that the rioters do not represent modern street that we share as constituency neighbours. On the Britain. Moral panic is not the answer. subject of what we will do about it, he will go home on the tube with me and we will see the headlines about the I hope that we will get answers from the Government fury at the soft sentences being handed down to the latest on the question of compensation. It is not trivial. Police offenders. Does he share my concern that the punishment forces that face increased costs and citizens in the must fit the crime? If it is not to be prison, it must be affected areas want to know whether adequate proper restitution, paying for their plunder and repairing compensation will be provided to cover their costs, the damage that they have done to our communities. because there was ambiguity in what was said by the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister. I hope that the Nick de Bois: My hon. Friend and neighbour, who Minister can clear up that important issue later. suffered similar problems, identifies a key point. One of We need a wider inquiry into the whole question of the other wishes of my constituents was that justice how riots should be policed. This riot was different. should be seen to be served. It is not unreasonable to There are no strong parallels with the 1981 riots that I expect that the thugs involved should receive custodial remember: the causes and the structures are very different. sentences and be put to good use in repairing some of Indeed, no real reason lies behind the current riots, the damage that they have done. We must take them out apart from criminality. Nevertheless, we need to consider of this cycle of crime and make efforts to reform them. whether the policing of these events has lessons for the I have three questions and I would be grateful for future. answers. The railway line ends at Enfield Town station. I am not proposing a vindictive attempt to put the During the course of the day, the trains were packed blame on the police. As I have said, they have been with people coming to cause mayhem. A request was incredibly brave, and it ill behoves politicians to be made to Transport for London to stop some of those armchair police officers. However, we must ensure that trains, and the buses that were coming from other parts the tactics of policing are right and that we are aware of of London. It never happened, and my constituents where we are taking our police, and that must include a would like to know why. review of numbers. The fact is that we are asking people Secondly, we believe that the vast majority of these in blue uniforms to stand up to thugs, and we must criminals were not from Enfield, as I saw first hand make certain that there are no gaps in those blue myself. If we share information from CCTV and YouTube uniforms. I must say, not unkindly, to the Minister for with the education authorities and the police, they can Policing and Criminal Justice, the right hon. Member work together to identify more of them. Thirdly, why for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), that were we not able to disperse the more than 100 people when I see him with a riot shield I shall be more who were there in the early hours? convinced that we have got the answers right. We, as Let me pay tribute to the borough commander, Dave politicians, must be prepared to do what we ask of our Tucker, and his team, and to Enfield council, who are serving police officers. now working together. Enfield is open for business. It Let me make a final point in the few moments that has recovered well and our last legacy sadly— remain to me. I believe that it ill behoves Members in all parts of the House to look for easy scapegoats. It was Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. not the abolition of educational maintenance allowance or the increase in tuition fees that caused these riots. 5.52 pm However, they do suggest that that there is no future for Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): The hon. many of our young people. We must begin to define a Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) rightly concluded future for them, so that they believe that they are part of by saying that Enfield is open for business. Manchester society’s solutions rather than part of society’s problems. is also open for business. All of the places hit by these If we do not do so, we will condemn ourselves— riots must make the same claim. We must insist that life goes on and we sweep up the pieces. We must begin the difficult process of saying that we will not be defeated Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. by the rioters. The hon. Gentleman’s time is up. 1169 Public Disorder 11 AUGUST 2011 1170

5.56 pm Margot James: I thank my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour for giving way. Is he shocked to learn that James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): there are reported to be more than 1,000 arson attacks a Even before the disturbances of the last few days I had year in the borough of Dudley, and that I believe that to become increasingly concerned about active antisocial be a gross under-report? Every day when we read the behaviour in my constituency, but the acts that we have Express and Star, we learn of arson attacks. seen over the past seven days have succeeded in crystallising that concern in my mind. We have seen astonishing and James Morris: My hon. Friend makes an excellent completely unacceptable acts of mindless violence in point. That is very worrying. communities across Britain. I am bitterly disappointed and appalled that in recent days they have reached parts I am a great believer in the “broken windows”approach of Birmingham, West Bromwich, Sandwell—part of to tackling crime. Allowing low-level disorder simply which I represent—and Wolverhampton in the west encourages further criminality in the same area. midlands, very close to my constituency. The perpetrators The next point to consider is why this situation was must and will be punished by the full extent of the law. allowed to spiral out of control more broadly across the However, we also need to reflect on how this has west midlands. The police acted bravely, and I want to happened. Let me quote from an e-mail that I received pay tribute to the chief constable of West Midlands from a constituent: police, Chris Sims, and his officers in Birmingham and “I may be wrong but I believe that the riots are symptomatic of other areas of the west midlands, who did an excellent a disrespect of values and we can trace the causes to a lack of job in quelling this disorder. discipline in schools; to a contempt of values ranging from litter, graffiti, antisocial behaviour through to more serious crime. I am 6pm convinced links exist. The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 9(3)). I hope, perhaps in vain, that on this occasion, that sympathy will not be extended to the culprits of riots but to the victims. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Instead of sympathising with the perpetrators, I hope that the Order No. 15), Government will look to discipline in society that is currently That, at this day’s sitting, proceedings on the Motion in the weak and is a major factor in our present circumstances…Now is name of the Prime Minister relating to Public Disorder may be the time and the responsible public will be with you.” proceeded with, though opposed, until 8.00 pm.—(Sir George Young.) It is important to stress that the overwhelming majority Question agreed to. of people have been appalled by these actions, and are decent, law-abiding citizens. However, in my constituency there have been plenty of examples of low-level antisocial Business without Debate behaviour and crime which I believe could lead to wider problems. For instance, a couple of months ago there was a case of arson in a factory in Malt Mill lane, DEFERRED DIVISION Blackheath. Metal theft has been a big problem throughout Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the black country, and the roof of Halesowen Church Order No. 41A(3)), of England primary school has been stripped on several That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred occasions. Graffiti in Stourbridge road and other parts divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Sir George of Halesowen have been a persistent and constant problem. Young relating to Sittings of the House and the Motion in the My local police commander, Inspector Steedman, recently name of the Prime Minister relating to Public Disorder.—(James arrested five youths for that offence. They went before Duddridge.) the magistrates court, and were fined a total of £29. Question agreed to. 1171 11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1172

Public Disorder I also pay tribute to the work of politicians of all parties on the city council and colleagues in this House, Debate resumed. particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Main Question again proposed. Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood). Real citizenship was shown by volunteers, too. The people who turned up James Morris: The West Midlands police force did with their brooms—interestingly, it was the Twitter excellent work in quelling the disorder. We must recognise network that brought people to the centre of Birmingham that many of these riots were organised. The disorder in and elsewhere to clean up—were predominantly young, Birmingham and across the west midlands was organised and that emphasises the fact that there should be no by youths using modern technology on smartphones stigmatisation of young people. It was young people and social networks. The police were, to some extent, who drove the broom brigades. always playing catch-up. I therefore believe we need to As a city—this is probably the case elsewhere—we look at the effectiveness of their current techniques to need at times like this to celebrate what is good about ensure that the police can protect the public effectively our city and what brings us together. We saw that in this new world. We must also recognise the crucial graphically in the profound dignity of Tariq Jahan just role played by brave individual police officers and the last night. On Sunday, Birmingham will come together work they did to quell this disorder, and I pay tribute to as a city. An event has been organised to celebrate the every police officer who was on the streets of Birmingham achievements of the racing driver Nigel Mansell, who and across the west midlands over the past few days. will see a star in his name put on one of the main streets Respect and responsibility start at home, and we of Birmingham, but many of us are saying that we must create a situation in which parents understand should make that event a celebration of our city, of that it is unacceptable for them not to know where their what brings us together and of the fact that we are children are. Discipline in the classroom is important. I bigger and better than what we saw this week. know my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary has In the last few seconds that remain, let me say two recently introduced measures to improve school discipline, things. It is not point scoring to warn about the impact and that is crucial. We need to clean up our towns of the coming police cuts. I hope that Government and we must not accept irresponsible and criminal Members recognise that. It is also not point scoring to behaviour. warn about the effects of cuts to services on young It is time for everyone to play their part, take responsibility people. This is about keeping the infrastructure we need for the state of their community and put right the in place to prevent such things from happening again. If outrageous wrongs we have seen over the past several we are not to stigmatise people, we need to support days. them. That means that the infrastructure and services must be in place to give them a voice and to allow them to have the opportunities they need and demand. I do 6.3 pm not mean those who were committing the violence this Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): This week, but the thousands of young people in Birmingham has been a tragic week for my home city of Birmingham. and up and down the country who say that they want It has been most obviously tragic for those who have more opportunity, want to see change and want to be lost their lives and their families and friends, but it has listened to. We must listen to them, and that must be the also been tragic for those whose businesses have been message from this debate, too. hit and whose property has been destroyed. My part of Birmingham was not dramatically affected by the disturbances, but the fear there was just as real as it was 6.7 pm everywhere else. Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): The rioting that We witnessed appalling scenes in Birmingham, other affected Clapham Junction, which is in the heart of parts of the west midlands and elsewhere, about which Battersea—to make a boring geographical point, it is there has rightly been unanimous condemnation in the not in Clapham, but in Battersea, as Clapham is several House today. There has also been unanimity in calling miles away, a point that causes great confusion— for the right kind of robust police response. It is important affected many businesses, leaving some of them too, however, that when our constituents call for things very damaged, and left the community badly shaken. I like water cannon and rubber bullets, we faithfully live very close to Clapham Junction and once the report what the police say to us. The clear message from police made it clear that serious trouble was expected, the police in the west midlands is that those things from about 8 o’clock, I spent an hour or so visiting would, at best, have been irrelevant and could have been businesses that were still open, particularly takeaways destructive if used. That is not to say that they should and restaurants, to advise them of what was going on not be available in reserve; they already are, and they and to urge them to take precautions. Many of them always have been. They were not appropriate on this felt that they had not been given sufficient warning by occasion, however. the authorities and felt rather let down, and that has It was a time of appalling scenes, but it was also a resulted in a loss of confidence in the authorities. time of real citizenship. I want to pay my own tribute to I am also glad that, although we all acknowledge the the emergency services and to echo what the hon. bravery of the police and what they did, the Prime Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) Minister said in his statement that senior police offices said about West Midlands police and their officers. have acknowledged that some of the tactics need to be There are also countless council and other workers out reviewed. In truth, parts of my constituency were a there, cleaning up promptly through the night. We need free-for-all for hours, with scenes broadcast on rolling to pay tribute to them. news of people helping themselves that made it far 1173 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1174

[Jane Ellison] hope that other councils will do the same. We do not want to hear of people missing out because they missed harder to restore order. The numbers piling in were the deadline. increasing as that carried on. Many people were appalled There will be a lot of focus in the coming months on to see open criminality being tolerated on the streets. the causes of the problems. Essentially, there will be a I do not know what shocked me more: passing the focus on the gulf between the values of the young giggling groups of teenagers phoning their friends to people who marched towards Clapham Junction on check on their trainer size, the van that parked opposite Monday night, armed with a brick, and the many more my house with eight or nine balaclavaed youths piling young people who descended on Clapham Junction the out of it who went up to Clapham Junction, gathered next morning, armed only with a broom, to help with up armfuls of stuff, got back in the van and drove the clear-up. off—obviously I have given the registration number to the police—or the fact that the first person convicted lives in Battersea and is a 31-year-old school worker in a 6.12 pm south London primary school. We have to be very Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab): As soon as I careful about reaching for easy solutions about social heard that there were riots—and they were riots—in my exclusion when we look at some of the people who have constituency and in the borough of Croydon, I left my been convicted. family holiday, and I have spent the last two days talking to many hundreds of victims. I think it is best, in Andrew Selous: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the brief time available to me, to report to the House on that school worker is convicted—I say this in the presence what I have heard. There were hundreds of people on of the Secretary of State for Education—it would perhaps the rampage in Croydon, ranging, I am told, from those be a good move for the school to consider dismissing aged eight or 10 to those in their 50s, but obviously them from its employment as a poor role model to the most were teenagers and people in their 20s. As the children? House knows, major buildings were torched; there were absolutely devastating fires. Those buildings, many of Jane Ellison: In truth, I cannot see how someone which housed businesses and accommodation, have convicted of that sort of offence could possibly be a role now been demolished. When I looked at the area on model. I am sure that the authorities will take the right Tuesday morning, I realised that it could be London action. during the blitz, or Berlin in 1945. It is no soundbite to I want to say a word about the mix of police skills, say that it was a war zone. Many were lucky to escape and about numbers. A lot of points have been made—some with their lives, and not to be burned to death. A of them a bit party political—about numbers, but in my woman jumped from a burning building. conversations with my area commander, the emphasis Many dozens of small businesses—offices and shops— has been on having the right skills mix available to the were trashed or robbed. There was theft on a gigantic police. The skills that a safer neighbourhoods team scale. Those small businesses were mainly owned by constable has are quite different from those of a trained people from our ethnic communities—hard-working, public order officer, and the two cannot easily be substituted enterprising people who put their life savings into their for each other, so it is not purely a police numbers issue; businesses. They worked to build them up, and now it is about those on the ground having the right skills they have seen them devastated. mix to deploy, and being able to react to a very fast-moving Of course there were brave police officers, firefighters new challenge. and ambulance staff, but the thin blue line was very thin On the effect on retailers, I think people have been indeed; frankly, in my constituency of Croydon North shocked to realise that loss of livelihood does not it was virtually invisible, in the minds of the victims. It is feature as high in the priorities as many feel it should interesting that the centre of Croydon, with big national when it comes to public order. It is a very serious thing offices such as those of Nestlé, major superstores such for people to lose their business or their job, particularly as Marks & Spencer and national brands, was protected in retail; the ultimate irony is that retail is an area of the by the police, so the mobs descended towards west economy that provides entry-level jobs to young people Croydon, and came into my constituency—the poorer straight from school. It is the most stupid area of all to part of the borough, where enterprises are small and attack, and to deprive people of jobs in. If JD Sports tend to be owned by hard-working families. I heard pulls out of some of the areas that have been badly dozens of reports, as I ducked into shops to look at the affected, the people affected would have a very similar devastation, that the police had effectively been nowhere demographic profile to those who attacked it. That is to be seen. 999 calls were sometimes unanswered. When absolutely crazy and self-defeating, so I very much people got through they were told that no officers were welcome the measures that the Prime Minister announced available. If they dared to call again out of fear about on business rates holidays and so on. what was happening, they were told they were being a I should like to make a plea, and I am sure that hon. nuisance and, “Please do not call again.” Members will take this up with their councils. As we The thugs ruled the roost. Looking at it objectively, know, many small businesses do not apply for the relief the thugs were more mobile, certainly more numerous that they are due. I have said to my council, which has and made more effective use of technology than the been very responsive to the idea, that it should provide a police. That is the reality as I see it. The looters in form-filling service to very small businesses, to make Croydon North did not have just an hour or two; they sure that they hit their deadlines and that nothing is had all night to loot and loot again. The shopkeepers rejected because the forms are not in order. Wandsworth told me that people were returning hour after hour to has been very responsive to that idea, and I very much take everything away. None of this was helped by the 1175 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1176 absurd decision of Metropolitan police commanders to How has this been allowed to come about? Well-meaning withdraw our very able and experienced police commander human rights legislation has been taken out of context, from Croydon to look after strategy at Scotland Yard, perhaps by people who do not live in the daily reality of meaning that when the riots kicked off that experience the consequences of a distorted human rights concept. was not available. The worst thing about a human rights concept that I have to say to the House on behalf of my constituents takes away action and consequence, and boundaries that there was no law in Corydon North that night. and discipline, is that not only our country suffers. Not There was just lawlessness. There was no order, but only our cities burn when kids realise that they can loot there was grave disorder. There were virtually no police; stores and get away with it, and then get away with it the vandals were in command. People are angry and again; those children themselves suffer. As everyone upset and we have got to do better in future. knows, without boundaries, we cannot know achievement. By taking away discipline, we are taking away from children the basic rule by which one can achieve, and 6.16 pm that is simply wrong. It is a lesson that we must all take Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): When away from this wake-up call of a week. Parliament was recalled, a couple of my constituents, having watched awful scenes on television, said to me, 6.19 pm “Oh great, so the cities are burning and the politicians Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): are going to talk. That is really going to fix things.” But In Liverpool on Monday and Tuesday we had two I have been really pleased that this has not been a terrifying nights, which I experienced at first hand, but I talking shop today and some really tangible provisions do not want to dwell on the perpetrators. I want to talk have come out of this. In many ways, the communities about the victims, the community response and future around our country feel that politics has been sleep-talking resources. into this situation. There have been many victims in my constituency Although no one could have predicted the manner in and across Liverpool; they have seen their homes, property which these riots arose, communities up and down the and livelihoods attacked. I joined Alison and her family country have seen something that the hon. Member for early yesterday morning. Her pub, the Earl Marshall off Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) Lawrence road, had its windows smashed and was pointed out: once kids see that they can do something looted late the night before. It was an attack on a family and get away with it, the problem suddenly becomes an business and a community institution. It was totally awful lot worse. Throughout communities, and certainly unacceptable, and there are too many similar examples in my constituency, people have been terrorised in their of local businesses vandalised—their shutters still closed own homes and prisoners in their own neighbourhoods today—and cars set on fire. because kids have been allowed to get away initially with low-level stuff, then a bit more, then a bit more. A very small minority carried out that criminal activity, wreaking havoc on local residents and bringing shame So the frustration and despair that was felt in many on the city. I echo the words of my hon. Friend the communities at seeing that there were no consequences Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden). to these actions was suddenly writ large over the entire An overwhelming majority harnessed the positive powers nation. The people of Britain know that there cannot of open social networking sites, including Twitter and be a situation in which actions have no consequences. Facebook, to organise, in the early hours of Tuesday That is one of the major lessons that we have to learn. It morning, a community clean-up. Just a few hours later is like a broken window policy. We have to start low-level at 9 am, people turned up in droves, with bin bags, to avoid reaching the high level. Actions have consequences. brooms gloves—young and old, a couple with a baby—all As chair of the all-party group on boxing, I cannot eager to get stuck in and clear away the smashed glass talk about the riots without mentioning the amazing and charred rubbish. The people of Liverpool channelled role that boxing clubs have played. Moss Side boxing their anger and abhorrence at what had happened in a club and the boxing academy have been on the media. massively positive way. When trouble sadly happened They reach out to young people with energy and aggression again on Tuesday night, even more people turned up on who are prone to activities such as rioting. Boxing clubs Wednesday morning to help in the clear-up, showing show them that actions do have consequences. There is the true face of Liverpool. They were joined by the discipline and if kids train and do well, they get better council, registered social landlords, clear-up teams and at something and they can take control of their life and the police. A group of strangers from across the city, do something with it. That is testament to fact that the volunteers and professionals, affectionately referred to concept that actions have consequences can work in a as the Liverpool riot Wombles, restored pride to the positive way. city. How have we got to this stage? How have we got to In Merseyside the police have done a formidable job the “You can’t touch me” approach that can be seen in protecting our community and keeping everyone informed. schools when teachers try to discipline kids and on the Like my colleagues, I have not heard a bad word about streets when policemen try to move on or discipline kids their formidable efforts to protect the city and to limit in the street? It has to be down to an abuse of the very damage to the rest of Liverpool. Chief Constable Jon valid concept of human welfare and human rights. Over Murphy and his team are to be commended. Merseyside the past years we have seen the rights of criminals come police were deployed to London on Monday, but they above the rights of victims such as my constituent returned to contend with the disturbances on Tuesday Helen Stockford. She has suffered terribly and the state night. My concern is how they will be able to deal has not been there for her, while it has been there to effectively with future trouble, which of course we sincerely safeguard the rights of her attacker. hope will not occur. 1177 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1178

Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): On that point about whose loved ones have either died or been injured and pressure on the police, I pay tribute to Nottinghamshire to the businesses that have been affected either directly police officers, many of whom worked 18 to 20-hour or indirectly. Clearly, in the areas where the main shifts. One of them worked a 26-hour shift. Does my demonstrations have taken place, businesses have been hon. Friend agree that police cuts of 20% would make affected, but businesses in other areas have been affected that situation even worse? indirectly because the early closures that have taken place can have a substantial impact on many small and Luciana Berger: Of course. The cuts are incredibly medium-sized enterprises. concerning. Merseyside police have already been recognised Of course, there can be no excuse for what has for the cuts and efficiency savings they made before the happened. Indeed, I do not think that the rioters are latest police settlement. No accommodation for those making any pretence that theirs was a political protest; efficiency savings and back-office cuts were made in the it was criminality, pure and simple, and an opportunity settlement. for mayhem and violence which they think will be without consequences. It is our responsibility to ensure Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Perhaps before that there are consequences for them. we decide that police cuts are the reason for the problem, Let me underline the fact that there are positives. the hon. Lady should consider the words of the chief Members have referred to the positive action that has constable of West Yorkshire who said he had the resources been taken in relation to clean-ups, for instance, and I he needed and that he had enough resources to invade a want to underline the important roles that young people south American country. are playing in many organisations—whether in the Scouts, Youth Parliaments, air cadets or a host of other Luciana Berger: Two weekends ago, before the troubles organisations where young people are making a positive occurred, I was out with the police in my constituency, contribution. and it was evident then that they were already stretched on a Friday night to respond to all the priority 1 calls. In the time that we have for the debate today, it is Over the next few years, until 2015, Merseyside police difficult to identify the solutions to problems that we are set to lose 800 police officers, so the challenge is have seen over the past couple of days and, indeed, the about the number of police officers we might lose in the areas that require further investigation, but the right future. My constituents have told me more than 100 times hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), who is no over the past couple of days that they want more police longer in his place, quite rightly highlighted some issues officers on our streets, not fewer. I echo the call from the around communications between the IPCC and the shadow Home Secretary that the Home Secretary should Met and communications with the family, and that clarify whether police forces will be able to recoup the matter requires investigation. additional costs they have incurred over the past few Other Members have proposed the deployment of days. If they cannot, I am even more concerned about water cannon, rubber bullets and curfews as a possible future community safety for my constituents and across solution. We need to consider that very carefully indeed, Liverpool. particularly as other Members have quoted their police My concerns extend to all our emergency services. On officers and said that many believe, for instance, that Tuesday night four fire engines were attacked in my water cannons are completely unsuited to fast-moving patch while they were attending fires. That was a completely scenarios, with groups of people moving around quickly. despicable act. Merseyside fire service is already stretched We also need to consider the tactics and training that and bearing the brunt of the biggest cuts in the country. have been used. For instance, if it is correct, as I have I urge the Government to revisit the amount of resources been informed by an ex-senior police officer, that the that all the people who put their lives on the line to Met plan for no more than three or four disturbances protect us, heal us and put out our fires deserve in order taking place at the same time, that will clearly need to to look after my constituents, all the people of Liverpool be considered. and the entire British public. The past four days have been extremely depressing. They have done enormous damage to our international 6.24 pm reputation. They have left families in mourning and businesses damaged. They have rocked our fundamental Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I start freedoms to their foundations. Today, the fight back by using this opportunity to thank and to express my begins. It will be a long campaign, but it is one that we admiration for the emergency services and their work—not cannot afford to lose. only the emergency services that have been working at the flashpoints that we have all heard about through the 6.28 pm press and so on and in today’s debate, but those that have been working in areas where problems have arisen Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I am proud although people might not be aware of them, such as in today of the way in which Parliament has conducted the London borough of Sutton, where many police this debate. For me, the politics of law and order and of officers, police community support officers and specials security and protecting our citizens have never been have been deployed. about the difference between right and left; they have I would also like to express support for the action always been about the difference between right and that the police have taken. It is our responsibility wrong. Parliament has made that very clear indeed as parliamentarians to be critical friends of many today. organisations, including the police, and to express support I want to pay my personal tribute to the men and for them when we support their actions. I also want women of Salford’s police, Greater Manchester police to express my condolences and sympathy to those and the police forces that came to our aid this week, in 1179 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1180 very difficult circumstances indeed. They were incredibly 6.32 pm brave, committed, courageous and fearless in the face of some pretty horrendous circumstances. On Tuesday Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): It is night, I saw for myself, in my community, the violence always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for that was going on at Salford precinct. It was localised; Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). we managed to contain it in one small area of the city, My constituency experienced rioting on Tuesday evening. but in that small area, it was extremely intense. The cars Shops were emptied and our city centre became a no-go of local journalists were torched. At one stage, according zone. Businesses that took generations to build were to the chief constable, there was a mob of about 1,000 destroyed in a matter of minutes. Livelihoods that took people, and we did not have enough police officers to years to create vanished in a couple of hours. During face them. the clean-up the next morning, I was struck by a mental The Home Secretary herself acknowledged today image. There is an Indian saying that it takes a lot of that initially we did not have enough police officers on effort to grow a flower: it needs water, love, time and the ground. In the first instance, we had ordinary officers effort, but anyone in one callous moment can come and in their ordinary gear—clearly, we could not send them stamp on it and destroy it. into such circumstances. They had to stand by, and the Many hon. Members will have seen last night’s footage fact that they did so while looting took place was a of Sham Sharma’s shop, which was completely looted devastating blow to public confidence. When the riot by thieves. He and I have been struck by the total lack of police came, fully protected and with the right training, respect and the disregard shown by some young people there were not enough of them, and at one point in the for the rights and property of others. We as a Government evening they had to retreat in the face of violence. They must do everything possible to make sure that this ceded the ground to the thugs and criminals. We can never, ever happens again. There is a need to restore never let that happen again. The message to people that confidence in the safety of our towns and cities, so that they, not the forces of law and order, are in control is they are no longer boarded-up ghost towns of an evening. absolutely devastating. I know that our chief constable To achieve this, a continuing strong response is needed is learning the lessons of that evening and it will never from the authorities. I welcome the initiatives announced happen again. I am not criticising the police officers but earlier today. we have to make sure that those tactics are not repeated. I am pleased that overnight the number of arrests in Many are questioning the values of society and Greater Manchester and Salford has increased. On that wondering how the country has ended up in this situation. evening, there were only three or four arrests, because I have had many conversations with a constituent, the police did not feel able to go in and arrest people on Mr Gurdev Rai, about what he calls the three Rs: the spot. Now, there have been more than 30 arrests in respect, responsibilities and rights. It is clear that for Salford and, I think, 170 across Greater Manchester. I many, the right to live free from fear has been destroyed am delighted that the courts are sitting on a 24-hour by the events of the past few days. Some of the rioters basis. Three CPS officers were in the police station have spoken of their rights to express their views, to overnight preparing the cases and the charges and getting “show the authorities what we can do”, and to cause them to the courts. The headline in today’s Manchester havoc in doing so. Much has been said of their rights. Evening News, “Instant justice”, sums it up: people have However, they display very little acknowledgement of been given immediate custodial sentences—they committed their responsibilities—responsibilities that each of us the action and they have got the consequences. That is has to one another, to our communities and to this what the public wanted. nation as a whole. Maybe that has been neglected in the education that young people have received, both at I commend the Manchester Evening News because it home and at school. It is clear that if everyone were to has given every single photograph it took throughout behave in this manner, our society could not exist as it these events to the police. I say to the other media—the does. broadcast media in particular—that they must do the same. It is their duty as public servants to make sure the It is the responsibility of all to maintain everything police have that information. that we hold dear to our hearts in this great country. We all agree on the principle of the right to vote and to hold My final point is that we have all seen positive things—in an opinion, but to do so within the limits of the laws my area, young people have been on the streets cleaning which protect the values of society. We should be grateful up. In the past 10 to 15 years, we in Salford have to live in a democratic and peaceful society. Let us be changed our community dramatically and transformed mindful that many young people across the world have opportunities for young people: we have new schools been willing to die for the rights that we enjoy in this and a new hospital; whereas before only 20% of young country. We have the right to free speech and a free people got qualifications, now 70% do; and our press, and the right to congregate and protest peacefully. unemployment rate has come down. There are opportunities. Salford is my city, and I am determined The rioters have abused those rights and destroyed that we will not slip back to the bad old days of despair the stability that has long existed. They have destroyed and hopelessness among our young people. We have a confidence in the safety of our towns and cities, and left massive job to do, but I am determined to ensure that many of our young citizens terrified. They have let us local and central Government, our public services and all down, particularly their young peers. Scenes have our citizens themselves use all our efforts. Yesterday, I been shown, too, of many young people who value their heard expressions of shock, outrage and horror, but society and work hard to maintain it. To return to the what I also heard from Salford people, who are the salt flower story, what I saw in Wolverhampton on Wednesday of the earth, was a fierce determination that these morning was many young people planting those flowers people will not win and we will protect our city. for the future. 1181 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1182

[Paul Uppal] Some Members of the House are talking as if disaffected, violent, criminal urban youth, with no stake in society, To live in a positive and enriching society, we must all are overnight phenomena. I put it to the House that in ensure that we live by the principle of respect—respect London, to my knowledge, we are looking at the third for each other, our communities, authority and the law generation of black boys who have been failed by the that maintains it. If we are to restore respect for authority education system. I do not say this today because I have in our society, we must start at home and especially at read about it in the paper. Ever since I have been a school. We need to return to the values that make our Member of Parliament this is an issue I have worked society great. That is not celebrity, fast cars, and a on. For 15 years I have had conferences about London culture of “Me first,” regardless of the consequences. schools and the black child, trying to bring the community This is the real world where young people should look together, trying to bring mothers together, trying to at those who aspire to respect others and work hard for encourage them not to blame the system, or the schools, what they achieve. These are the real heroes of our or politicians, but to take responsibility for their own society, those who know their own value, respecting not children’s education. I have held workshops in Hackney only themselves, but their families, community, society for the black community, for the Turkish community, and country. and I have had six years of running an award scheme for London’s top achieving black children. And I tell the House this: it has been impossible to get publicity 6.36 pm for much of this activity, just as many ordinary people in our communities who are working hard with young Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) people and people on estates cannot get publicity. But (Lab): When I saw the flames on the streets of Tottenham when people riot, the media is all over our communities, on Saturday night, I had a deep sense of foreboding and the next weekend they will be gone, leaving us with because I knew that it was only a matter of time before these issues. the same problems came to the streets of Hackney, not just because we have many of the same underlying Let me say, in the very short time available, that one social conditions but because the same gangs run backwards of the things that I have learned from years of work, in and forwards across the border between the two particular around urban youth and the black family, is communities. that most families want to do the best by their children. Members are getting up and talking about bad parents. I want to stress that the pictures that people have seen Some of these mothers want to do the best, but they on their television screens of looters in Hackney do not struggle. I gave an award a few years ago to a young represent my community. What represents my community man who came here from war-torn Somalia at the age is the hundreds of people who turned out the following of eight and he got a first from London university. He morning to clean up Hackney and to make good their lived on a grim estate in Brent. His brother was in a community. I want to thank my council officers and my gang. It is not just about toxic areas, toxic estates, toxic chief executive, Tim Shields. It is easy for Westminster families; these are individuals. Let us hope that what is politicians to denigrate council officers, but when people happening to boys and families in urban communities is arrived to clean up Hackney at 10 am, council staff had not just this week’s issue, but is something to which the been there before them and had swept Mare street House will return and give the attention it deserves. and the surrounding streets, and everything was clean and orderly before 8 am. Council officers in Hackney had also been up all night monitoring CCTV,monitoring 6.42 pm buildings in the high street for arson, and making sure the police got there to stop arson so that we did not see Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): After buildings in flames, as we saw in other parts of London. witnessing the terrible scenes in my city on Tuesday I would like to thank the emergency services and my night, as a Manchester MP I am grateful to have the borough commander, Steve Bending, who did the very opportunity to take part in this debate, particularly best with the resources that were available to them. given the number of people who wanted to speak. We need to be clear that the scenes that we have witnessed Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): When my around the country are nothing other than disgraceful hon. Friend describes the response of the police in criminal activity, carried out by mindless idiots and Hackney, does she share my concern that there was a career criminals who take pleasure in causing trouble poor and slow police response to what happened in the and who thought that this was a golden opportunity to Tottenham Hale shopping centre? Does she agree that rob and steal and not get caught. any inquiry into the policing activities must examine I was pleased that on television both the shadow why there was so little police availability for that incident? Justice Secretary and the Leader of the Opposition avoided endorsing comments from a small number of Ms Abbott: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, but people who have tried to use this violence as a means of one has to admire people’s willingness to stand up for attacking Government policy and scoring cheap political their community and defend their community. We saw points at a time when everyone should have been on the streets of Hackney members of my Turkish condemning the violence and criminal behaviour rather community, wanting to defend their restaurants. However, than giving anyone the chance to try to justify their own we must be careful about vigilantism. It is one thing to criminal behaviour. defend one’s business, but it is for the police to be on the Following the scenes in London, Liverpool and street defending communities. We have seen what happened Birmingham on television on Monday evening, there in Birmingham. I worry about vigilantism tipping over was understandable concern in Manchester that such into ethnic conflict in some of our big cities. behaviour would spread to our streets on Tuesday. 1183 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1184

I spent the early evening on Tuesday out in the constituency When I refer to the involvement of social and economic to gauge the mood and watch out for any signs of factors, the immediate response from Government Members trouble. In south Manchester, we were very fortunate may be to claim that I am an apologist for what has that we did not experience the violence that we saw in happened. I am nothing of the kind. Like everyone else, the city centre or in Salford. Incidents of disorder and I condemn the looting, the arson and the manner in criminal activity were limited, but I was shocked to hear which mobs were in control in the absence of the police. some of the comments being made by young people on In some cases law-abiding people feared for their lives. the streets. One group of young people were talking That was the case in West Bromwich and Wolverhampton, about how they intended to go into Manchester and which is near my constituency, and of course there was have a great laugh looting and attacking the police. One the tragic killing of three young men in Birmingham. I young woman, who cannot have been above 16 or 17, am not an apologist for law-breaking and never will be, was shouting into her mobile phone, for everyone on but there are social and economic factors, such as the street to hear, how annoyed she was that she was not deprivation and gangs. Questions have rightly been able to go and steal herself a new television because she raised about the involvement of youngsters, some of was pregnant. This mentality shows the sorts of challenges them only nine, 10 or 11 years old, and, of course, the we face to change the attitudes of a minority of people lack of parental control. Those are all part of the social in this country. and economic factors to which I have referred. A small minority of people have sought to try to In the limited time available, I want to talk about the explain away this poor behaviour on bad education, police. It is interesting that when Members have spoken unemployment and a lack of things to do for young today they have referred to the fact that the police were people, but that simply does not wash. Among the not around or that not enough of them were around. people already brought before the courts are a teaching No one has suggested for one moment that there were assistant, a chef, a graphic designer, a university student too many police. We heard from my right hon. Friend and an 11-year-old child. It is not simply the disadvantaged the Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks), for and disaffected. Only a tiny minority of people have example, that it was impossible to contact the police. In caused the trouble. The vast majority of people, regardless those circumstances, I ask the Ministers who are present, of their education, employment status or level of boredom, and the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, who had absolutely no interest in being out on the streets are no longer in their places, whether it really makes any causing trouble in Manchester or any other town or city sense to go ahead with the proposed cuts. across the country. In the west midlands it is intended that there will be Yesterday, along with a number of Greater Manchester 1,000 fewer officers. Indeed, more than 100 officers who MPs, including my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle have more than 30 years’ service have already been (Mark Hunter), I attended a meeting with the police. It asked to leave against their wishes. They do not want to came as no surprise to me when the chief constable told retire from the police service. The Government have us that the vast majority of those people who have argued time and again that that is necessary because of already been arrested were already known to the police. the cuts, but I believe that reducing police numbers and The recent unrest has been seen by some as a golden taking the view that what has happened in the past few opportunity to carry out their usual criminal activity, as days will not be repeated is very foolish. I know that my they assume that they will not be caught. We need to get view will be dismissed as purely party political. across the message that they will be caught, charged The other point I want to make is that I am very wary and convicted. I know that the police are working flat indeed of rubber bullets, water cannon and the rest of out to identify people involved in the riots, and I pay it. I am, always have been and probably always will be a tribute to them and to the fire service for the job it has firm believer in the ordinary policing that has been used done under very difficult circumstances. Two people in this country. In my view, the use of water cannon, found guilty of offences have already been sent to rubber bullets and the rest of it, which has been suggested, prison. Swift justice will send out a clear signal to these far from resolving the issue, would probably escalate it criminals that they are not above the law. and would have make the situation in the last four Finally, I would like to pay tribute to the response of nights even worse. Let us put our confidence in ordinary the people in Manchester to the devastating scenes in policing and for heaven’s sake not go ahead with the the city. I was out on the streets yesterday morning reduction in police numbers. It makes no sense at all. helping with the clean-up operation. Work had gone on throughout— 6.50 pm Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I call Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It is a great Mr David Winnick. pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick), for whom I have a great deal of respect, 6.46 pm but I am afraid that I disagree with him on water cannon, the issue to which I want to speak this evening. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): The Home In doing so, I declare my interest as a special constable Affairs Committee is going to conduct an inquiry, as we with the British Transport police, and I also speak on know, and we will see what conclusions it reaches and behalf of the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), whether its report will be unanimous, but in my view a who would like to be here but is not for family reasons. I public inquiry might also be needed, because it is very also thank all those police officers who have gone above important to determine the circumstances of Mark and beyond the call of duty to defend local communities Duggan’s death, what happened afterwards and how his during the past few days, some 40 of whom have come partner and family were informed. from Northamptonshire. 1185 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1186

[Mr Philip Hollobone] I welcome the news today from the Prime Minister that at last we are going to have some action on face I simply cannot understand, and nor can my constituents, coverings. May I commend to the Government my Face what the problem is with using water cannon in this Coverings (Regulation) Bill, which I introduced earlier country. Rioters do not like being cold and wet, and in the year, and which would have banned the covering they will go home. If we spray them with cold water, of all faces in public? If we are going to do so for people especially if there is dye in it so that we can see who the with criminal intent, we will at least take a step forward, troublemakers are, we will find that it is easy to arrest but may I urge Her Majesty’s Government to give the them. That is not an operational matter for the police, police stop-and-search powers so that they can apprehend as we have been told throughout today; it is a matter for people in order to search for face coverings? The existing the Home Office, and I note that no Home Office legislation prevents police officers stopping and searching Minister is present on the Treasury Bench to hear these somebody to see whether they are in possession of face remarks, which is a great shame. coverings. I have a Home Office letter, dated 22 December 2010, My constituents want to see water cannon used against from the Under-Secretary of State for the Home rioters, and they want to see legislation to ban face Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley coverings for those intent on promoting criminal violence. and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), who is responsible for Basically, we are too soft in this country on those who crime prevention. It states: would set about causing violent disorder, and it is time that the police service became a police force once again. “Water cannon are not approved for use in England and Wales. Chief Officers would need to seek Home Office approval under the Code of Practice on Police Use of Firearms and Less Lethal 6.55 pm Weapons if they wanted to introduce water cannon to England and Wales as a potential public order tool.” Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): This has been an Responsibility for water cannon rests with the Home important debate with some powerful and eloquent Office, not with chief constables. The letter goes on to speeches. It has fully justified the decision by the Prime state: Minister to ask Mr Speaker to reconvene Parliament. We have had a view of the whole country and of the “The Home Office would carefully need to consider its operational merits, its technical and medical risks and its impact on the constituencies that have been scarred by the violence British model of policing before approving it as a tactical option over the past few days. In my Leicester constituency, for police. However I do not think anybody wants to see water there has been disorder. In an interview with my local cannon on the streets of Britain as we have a different culture of radio station after what happened in Tottenham, I was policing.” asked whether I thought that it would happen in Leicester. May I tell Her Majesty’s Government that my I said that I doubted it, because Leicester is not the kind constituents do want to see water cannon on the streets of city where such events occur. Sadly, they did occur, of Britain? We want to see rioters hosed down, sprayed and I pay tribute, as have so many right hon. and hon. and covered in purple dye, so that we can see who the Members across the Chamber, to the local police force troublemakers are. for what it has done over the past few days. The hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) put forward powerfully his views about what should be the Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Does my police’s tactics. Although I accept that policy is a matter hon. Friend not agree, however, that water cannon are for the Home Office, in the end these are matters for the generally better at dispersing large groups of rioters police. Politicians can articulate their views, but at the who are confronting the police? In recent days, we have end of the day it is the police who face the most difficult seen agile, nimble groups of rioters who have been tasks of all. evading the police, so water cannon might not be that useful in those circumstances. Last night I was in Clapham. I apologise to the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), because I thought that Clapham Junction was in Clapham, but of course Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend makes a very good it is in Battersea. I was with her excellent chief point, and the rioters over the past few days have not superintendent, David Musker, and I went to meet been like those in Parliament square, but when those some of the victims of the disorder. I pay tribute to riots occurred recently the same excuses were trotted what the police have done. This debate has highlighted out about how water cannon would not be appropriate. the importance of visibility and I think that we will They would be appropriate, because if all those yobs in return to that issue. Parliament square had been hosed down and covered in I thank the members of the Home Affairs Committee, purple dye they would soon have gone home, so it is some of whom are here, such as the hon. Member for simply not fair to expect police officers, with a riot Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) and my hon. shield in one hand and a baton in the other, and when Friends the Members for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) they are told off for hitting somebody with a baton, to and for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), for face a violent mob without giving them the weapons agreeing to hold a wide-ranging inquiry into these that they should have to bring order back to our streets. disorders. We have just published our terms of reference My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point, but water and I have sent a copy to every right hon. and hon. cannon would have helped with the riots of recent days, Member of this House. Sitting here listening to this because someone who is cold, wet and covered in purple debate has almost been like the start of the evidence dye is far less likely to loot their local TV shop, JD Sports sessions, because each Member has put forward a powerful or whatever, as they would know that the police would case for acting in different ways. I hope that Members be able to come and get them pretty quickly. will suggest organisations that might want to give evidence 1187 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1188 to the Committee. We will of course look at police that we need to stand up to those who are driven by a tactics, the operation of gangs and mobile communications, total disregard for others and should make no apology and we will revisit issues that we have looked at in the for them. They said that we need to protect individuals past, such as in our inquiry into the G20 protests. This in our communities, their livelihoods and the businesses will be a thoughtful and measured inquiry, which will where they work. They were the victims in the past four begin on 6 September. I am glad that the Mayor of days, not the people who chose to disregard and abuse London has agreed to be a witness. That was a pre-arranged them. My constituents say that, consequently, our first evidence session, but he will now start off our inquiry, priority is to maintain order on our streets, and I bring hopefully along with the new Metropolitan Police that message to the House. Commissioner. My constituents also say that we need to change the culture of our policing; that law enforcement, like justice, Alun Michael: Notwithstanding the importance of needs to be done and seen to be done; and that when that inquiry, does my right hon. Friend agree that it is punches are thrown at a police officer, the person should important to have a wider inquiry into what the Prime be arrested there and then so that the pictures go out Minister earlier described as the context within which across the nation, showing that the police are taking law crime happens, and that there should be a full-ranging enforcement seriously. Saying that they will get people public inquiry in addition to the excellent work that I later through CCTV has less of an impact. Immediate am sure our Committee will do? action is a vital part of stopping copycat criminals, and we need to take that on board. Keith Vaz: That must be up to the House after it has I am sad to say this to my Front Benchers, but we considered all these matters. My right hon. Friend is need to review police numbers. We need to look at what right that this matter goes far beyond issues of policing is happening this year and take the riots into account. and moves into issues of justice and education. It was The review should be not only about numbers, but good to see the Secretary of State for Education here about deployment, and we should conduct it before we and I am glad that he will wind up the debate on behalf make our decisions about the funding formula grants of the Government. next year. My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and My constituents told me that the riots were not Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), who came into this a matter of poverty, ethnicity, multiculturalism, House with me 24 years ago, has been going on about unemployment or cuts. They say that claiming that is an the issues of black youth for 24 years-plus. Other Members insult to the many hundreds of thousands of people of the House have done the same thing. My right hon. who come from underprivileged backgrounds and who Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) have fought their way out and created successful lives, made it her whole career in the House to talk about the need making a success of business and careers. They are sick to bring communities together and to get neighbourhoods to death of being tarred with the same brush. It does involved in policing. Government Members have done not help our society to do that. We need to take on that the same. There is no monopoly of wisdom. message, too. We need to consider wider issues, but, for the time My constituents are not very happy with the politicians. being, let us concentrate on giving the police the resources We need to take responsibility in the House for what we they need and ensuring that the disorders come to an do. They deplore the fact that we do not seem to listen end. Let us then move on to try to get some practical to them. They tell us that we are failing in that respect. solutions to ensure that such violence never happens They deplore our misrepresenting of important issues again. and putting political slant first. They deplore the fact I have just seen the press conference held by the that we make promises that we cannot or do not keep, young man from Malaysia, who was mugged by people and that we spin and show them disrespect. That goes who appeared to come to help him. Twenty million for all of us. It is no good saying that it applies only to people have viewed that incident on the world wide web. Government Members—it is all of us, and we need to It is important for the reputation of our country and take that on board. That is the message that I promised our citizens that we get the solutions right. to bring to this place. My constituents want us, too, to change our act. We are part of the problem; we need to 7pm be part of the answer. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow the Chairman of the Home Affairs 7.4 pm Committee. I wish him well in his important work and Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ look forward to the Committee’s report. Co-op): There have been devastating events in my My constituency is a microcosm of Britain in its constituency, where we saw criminals breeding fear in ethnic make-up. The similarity between Northampton residents and leaving destruction in their wake. I, too, South and the national make-up is startling. I have pay tribute to the authorities in my area and to the sought the views of my constituents across that ethnic council, whose clean-up with the help of local residents spectrum in the past three days and I said that I would on Tuesday morning was so effective that by the time I report their words to the House, because they are important arrived back in the constituency from my holiday—I and we need to listen to them. came as soon as I could—the area was unrecognisable My constituents said that we should not seek to from the night before. provide excuses or justification for violent disorder; and Police commander Steve Bending and fire commander that we witnessed blatant criminality and thuggishness Graham Howgate and their officers have also done a in the riots and we should recognise that. They told me good job in restoring order to our streets. Their police 1189 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1190

[Meg Hillier] reflect in the debate. We must talk to those who are good citizens, as well as those who are disaffected. officers are sleeping in the corridors at Hackney police Top-down will not deliver. We need local people and station, ready for any further trouble. They are working organisations working together to stop the gang culture closely with council officers in the CCTV room controlled once and for all and rescue the lost generation of very by the council. Although there was still damage in young children from getting hooked into wider criminal Hackney, the use of CCTV has been effective in reducing activity. it. To anyone who suggests that we reduce the use of CCTV, I would say that not a single constituent has ever asked for that. They always want more, not less, and we 7.8 pm have seen the effects of that today. I would ask the Government to remember that. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): When I was asked this morning why I had made a 2,000 mile In Clarence road in my constituency, where the worst round trip, leaving my family to be here, even though of the troublemakers were kettled in, the police faced a my constituency is not affected, my answer was very real challenge. Around the police line there was looting, simple. It is because I care for this country, like every with cars in flames. There were not enough police to Member here, and I am deeply upset and angry at what stop the looting at that time, so there are questions that has happened. the Home Secretary and the Metropolitan police need My constituents have said to me clearly that they to ask at the central level about police deployment—about want to see the rioters made to clear up and pay for the their ability to deploy at the right speed to get to the damage that they have caused, as well as being punished. right place at the right time—and, of course, about They want to see the police move more swiftly, being police numbers. I echo the comments of the hon. Member deployed when needed and acting more robustly when for Northampton South (Mr Binley). Now is the time necessary. I have a concrete proposal to make tonight. I to pause—to stop and think about cuts to police numbers. do not want us to use the term “shoplifting” any more; We do not need fewer; we need what we have now. We I think that we should rename it “shop theft”. Let us know that Ministers will trot out the mandarin maths call it what it is. At the same time, an £80 fine for that they are being fed. We need to listen to what people stealing up to £200 worth of goods is simply inadequate. are saying out there on the ground and learn the lessons We need tougher sentences for shop theft, as I believe from what we have seen. Cuts of 20% are too deep and we should call it. Many of my shopkeepers in Leighton will have a devastating impact on our neighbourhood Buzzard and elsewhere have talked to me about the policing teams. problems of shop theft—indeed, it is a problem for us I welcome the support for businesses that the Prime all—so I would ask the Government to act on that. Minister has announced. One business man, Shiva Kandiah I praise the broom armies that we have seen in in Clarence road, spent 11 years working seven days a Battersea, Hackney, Liverpool and other areas. There is week, with just one day off every year on Christmas good in this country. Many people have praised Tariq day, building up a business that is now devastated. Jahan from Birmingham, and I join them. I also wish to When will the full details of the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 praise Pauline Pearce from Hackney, who told a mob of scheme be announced, and can we be told now, at the youngsters that they were doing wrong and that they end of this debate, whether it will help the uninsured should not riot. Good on her! Let us have more decent and the under-insured? British citizens like her standing up and doing the right I have very little time to look at the causes, but it is thing, because then we will have less trouble. We all have clear that gangs were heavily involved in such activity a stake in this, not just the forces of law and order. up and down the country, and certainly in Hackney. Every one of us—Members of Parliament and members There are three reasons to tackle the gangs. I will not of the public—can play our part in stopping these repeat what hon. Friends and colleagues have said about rioters getting their way. crime being punished. We know that those criminals Of course our young people need hope for the future need to be dealt with, and residents want them dealt and a stake in our society, a home of their own, a job, with severely, but young people in Hackney make up support when they get married and help with saving around a third of all residents in the borough, and they and loans to start up a business. The Prime Minister are afraid. They are afraid to walk around their own said that he hoped this debate would look at changing streets at night, and their parents worry too. Those the culture in our country. In my own small way, I want young people worry about going to activities and youth to play a little part in doing that this afternoon. clubs outside their postcode areas. They should enjoy the same freedoms as most of us did when we were Where do we learn right from wrong? We learn it young, and their parents should not have to worry. from teachers and from the police, but above all we learn it from our parents. Being a parent is a really The key thing is that we are seeing a potentially lost tough job if there are two of you, but it is particularly generation, as children of primary school age are being tough if there is only one of you. I salute single parents, hooked into gangs early, with some already directly many of whom do a fantastic job, but if there were involved and others with family members involved. more fathers around fewer people would join gangs. I Schools and youth support can do only so much. We salute Tony Wright, a former Labour Member, who need to break the cycle. I therefore welcome the said a few years ago: Government’s talk of a report on gang culture, but it “When some other hon. Members and I were children, the cry must be one that listens to young people. We have would sometimes go up, ‘Wait until your father comes home.’ For hardly heard a voice from young people in this place many children in this country, there is no father to come home.”— today, which I would have liked to have had time to [Official Report, 24 May 2005; Vol. 434, c. 650.] 1191 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1192

He was right. Let us unite around the need for more gang culture for many years, but it is also true that there fathers to help bring up our children and teach them has been an explosion of gang activity. Some is criminal, right from wrong. That is what the Prime Minister and some involves youth gangs. Those activities overlap called on us to do when he spoke earlier today. in a way that is sometimes fluid and sometimes distinct— There are things that we can do to strengthen families, sometimes they feed off each other—but now it is such as community family trusts—there is one in my percolating not just into city communities such as mine constituency. The “Let’s Stick Together” course is being in Westminster and Kensington, of all places, but out piloted by the Department for Education in an excellent into the suburbs. It is facilitated and driven by social initiative. It started in Bristol and is spreading around media, although not caused by them. the country. It is a small start, but let it spring up in We can turn that gang culture around, and we can do every constituency. We can also reduce the couple penalty it quickly. There are fine individuals and fine voluntary in the benefits system, and the Work programme will be and community organisations that can play a part in a big help in that area too. We all have a part to play by solving the problem, but they need our sustained support, acting responsibly. Being a parent is the most important not just today, for six weeks or for six months, but over thing that any of us will do, and that is part of the the coming years. I urge the House to accept that, if we solution. condemn the criminal deeds that we have seen and punish the criminals who are responsible for them—as we must—we must also ensure that we do not write off 7.12 pm our blighted urban young. Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Our hearts go out to all of the victims of the destructive violence 7.16 pm we have seen in the last week, including those in the three episodes that have occurred in my constituency, Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Thank and to those so tragically killed a couple of days ago. you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me an opportunity Every single one of these acts is an individual act of to speak about the appalling events that hit Enfield on criminality for which those responsible must be prosecuted, Sunday night. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the and our grateful thanks go out to the police for the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), who gave a work that they have done. We owe them a debt that we good account of those awful events. They also washed should not repay by cutting their numbers and assaulting into Waltham Cross, in the constituency of my hon. the leadership and integrity of our safer neighbourhood Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), who teams. has taken a close interest in the issue, and into my This was not a protest and no one marched or looted constituency. with a manifesto, but nothing comes from nothing. This My constituents would want me to express a number was an unprecedented event—an explosion on our streets of emotions on their behalf during the brief period that reflects a chasm between many parts of society and available to me. Those emotions include, of course, elements of our urban youth. We have heard a lot sympathy for the businesses whose livelihoods simply during this debate of concerns about the way we live went in a matter of hours. My hon. Friend the Member now, including family, fatherhood and the community, for Battersea (Jane Ellison) made the good point that and those are issues that we should address. We have we must never understate the importance of the livelihoods also heard concerns about the economic prospects for of those businesses, and that must be reflected in how our young. We have heard very little about other great we enforce the law and punish those who seek to denigrate it. themes such as values, consumerism and the stresses on Another of those emotions is shame: shame that one our society caused by a 30-year widening in inequality. of the oldest department stores in north London, and We have also heard very little about the problematic in Enfield itself, has had to bring in counsellors to relationship between too many of our young people counsel members of staff who are still traumatised by and the police, but that deserves to be addressed. what happened on Sunday night, and a dog team to Very few, if any, of these issues started on election reassure staff and customers about future trade. A day last year, and I am happy to confirm that fact. I jeweller has put sandbags in front of a shop that was know that cuts in public spending did not cause the raided, and other shops are boarded up because their riots that we have seen, although I also believe that owners are still in fear. youth unemployment and cuts in our youth services A further important emotion is the feeling of support have not and will not help the problem of young people for the emergency services, which have made such a with nothing to do and no prospects. However, I urge brave and sterling effort in Enfield: for the action of the Government Members to recognise that if we are to local police, for the strong leadership of David Tucker, continue a thoughtful and mature debate on the causes their borough commander, and for their bravery and— of this crisis, they should not imply that many of the despite enormous provocation—extraordinary restraint. roots of the problem lie in May 1997. That is not true However, my constituents want, and wanted at the time, either, and we will not understand the problems if we tougher action and more police. The wave of violence follow that path. that hit Enfield was intolerable, and it then crashed In the few seconds left to me, I want to focus not on down on Croydon, Clapham Junction and Ealing, and the immediate policing priorities with which we have beyond. My constituents have a serious question to ask: rightly been concerned this week, and not on the great why did it take until Tuesday for that particularly robust themes of our economy, our society and our institutions policing to arrive on the streets? They want to give their of authority, but on a very practical issue involving unqualified support to our police, in terms of not just gangs. It is of course true that in Hackney, south numbers but empowerment. They want the police to be London and other parts of the country we have had a free from the time-consuming process of processing 1193 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1194

[Mr David Burrowes] them safe. We have heard that water cannon would be difficult to deploy, and completely ineffective where individuals from arrest to charge, and from the risk-averse there is a swiftly moving crowd, and Sir Hugh Orde has culture that advocates containment rather than warned against the use of plastic bullets. I am concerned confrontation. that calls for such measures are distracting from what However, there is also the issue of enforcement. The we really need: a visible, reassuring, on-street police right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) presence, and people in charge of local policing who reported reassuring news in an evening paper about know what they are doing—not the shallow populism instant justice, but there is less reassuring news from of an elected police commissioner, and not cuts to today’s edition of the London Evening Standard, which front-line police services. has the headline “Riot Police Fury at Soft Sentences”. The actions of the mob in London, Manchester, Members on both sides of the House have referred to Bristol and elsewhere were mindless, criminal and the riots on their streets, but, although 400 people have inexcusable. Every time I see the YouTube clip of the been charged, there has not yet been a charge of riot. I injured Malaysian student being mugged by those am assured, and I recognise, that there is a heavy purporting to help him, it seems more brutal, more evidential burden and that there will probably be charges depressing and more soul-destroying to think that people in future, but that raises the issue of the serious offence could act in such an inhumane way. However, the role of of riot. we politicians is not just to condemn. We will, of Guidance from the Crown Prosecution Service lists course, be pilloried by some if we try to understand, the characteristics of riots. For instance, and if we dare to move beyond simple condemnations “the normal forces of law and order have broken down”— of thuggery and criminality, which are so easy to utter. However, it is our responsibility to try to prevent this they certainly broke down in Enfield—and from happening again, and not just in the short-term “due to the intensity of the attacks on police and other civilian sense of policing our streets and keeping our communities authorities normal access by emergency services is impeded by safe. If we take that responsibility seriously, we need to mob activity”. have the political will and courage to persevere with That happened in Enfield as well. Next it says that policies that only reap rewards in the long term and “due to the scale and ferocity of the disorder, severe disruption perhaps sometimes do not reap rewards at all—policies and fear is caused to members of the public”. that are resource-intensive and sometimes unpopular That happened in Enfield, too. It also says that with voters who cannot understand why we are spending “the violence carries with it the potential for a significant impact money on the “undeserving.” upon a significant number of non-participants”. I am talking about investing in people’s lives and That happened in Enfield and beyond. futures. I am talking about intervention—about what We must ensure that when these offences come before some would decry as the nanny state. I am talking about the courts, even though the specific crime may be burglary schemes such as Sure Start, trying to give kids a better or theft, they are all considered in the context that there start in life and help their parents be better parents, and was a riot, and the culprits are punished accordingly. the family intervention projects, working with the most We must look at the offence of riot to see whether it is problematic “problem”families, addressing issues including fit for modern purposes. alcoholism, drug addiction, mental health problems, domestic violence and criminality, and trying to break There is little time left to consider the deeper issues the cycle of deprivation and despair. They are about as involved here. Whereas in years gone by rioters shouted far from a political quick win as we could get, but it is “Church and King”, they now shout for “Adidas and very important that we continue to take such steps. I am Nike.” The pursuit now is for appearance, possessions also thinking about schemes such as the education and brands, rather than meaningful relationships, where maintenance allowance, encouraging kids from poorer the father is influential. He may well now be absent. We backgrounds to share the same aspirations as those must all reflect on, and then tackle, these questions of with an easier start in life, and funding the work in local value and culture. communities by groups such as Kids Company. I am old enough to recall the way the inner-city riots 7.21 pm in 1981 lit a spark in other towns, including my then Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Thankfully, the home town of Luton. Indeed, I lived in Toxteth for a trouble in Bristol this week was not on the scale of that time as a student in the aftermath of the riots there. I in London, Manchester and the midlands, and was not saw a generation written off by a Government who did a repeat of the disturbances in Stokes Croft in Bristol, not believe in intervention and thought people should the so-called Tesco riot of a few months ago. It was for be left to fend for themselves. I urge this Government the most part an aimless copycat effort, although still not to repeat the mistakes of the past Conservative very frightening for communities, who saw gangs marauding Government, and instead to devote resources to trying through the streets and setting fire to cars and bins. to ensure that people’s lives now do not turn out the Having seen the television footage of what was happening way their parents’ lives, and those of the generations elsewhere, the local community feared the worst, of before them, did. course. 7.24 pm I congratulate the local police on how they kept the situation under control. That has to be the priority, to Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): My constituency ensure that the public are kept safe and can get on with was not hit by any rioters—and may it remain so—although their lives. I am, however, concerned about some of the we supplied police and so on, but I have considerable measures being proposed as ways of supposedly keeping past professional and political experience, over years, of 1195 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1196 the inner cities. I had great sympathy with the hon. As we move on from these disgusting scenes, we must Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington be conscious of the risk if there is a perception that the (Ms Abbott) when she spoke. She is right: very few of police are being criticised or undermined. Police officers the young and of the youth were involved. I would marching and protesting and a perception of conflict expect that. However, this takes me back to when I was with the Government do not raise the status of the in education in an inner-city area, looking at some of police in the public mind. I do not agree with the the special schools we had, including a very special Government’s plans for the police, but I urge them to school for very difficult youngsters. It is as well that the try to seek agreement and avoid a stand-off. The last Secretary of State for Education is here, because I have thing we need is a demoralised police force. A justice him nailed to the seat and I can raise the issue. system that is perceived as soft will only embolden and At the bottom, the people who feed the gangs are the reinforce the mindset of those who think the police are very young, and they are feral. We are talking about fair game and that nothing much will happen to them if parenting, but they do not have parents—or not what they are caught. we would call parents. The father has gone, or the I have just been contacted by some constituents who mother, or both, or drugs and so forth are involved, so had their cars wrecked in a pre-riot orgy of vandalism. they are not what we would call parents. In some cases, The sentences imposed on the perpetrators do not cover even if the parents try, they are physically abused by the damage, and the court made no compensation their children. Those are the sort of children in some of order. It is simply not good enough. these schools and, in particular, I have been talking to I join Members in all parts of this House in calling one of the teachers who helps to run one of the schools for support for the police. We must stand up for the for these little and not-so-little monsters. She tells me victims of crime and support tough, deterrent sentencing. the conviction method we must introduce has to break Vicious criminal activity and lack of respect for other up that social life pattern. She says they must be forced people and their property simply cannot be tolerated. for several months—perhaps years—to attend a really We must make clear that our No. 1 priority is the tough school or undertake real community service from rigorous enforcement of law and order. 8 in the morning to 6 at night, preferably for seven days a week, and that they are otherwise to be at home with an electronic tag, under a curfew. They should have no 7.30 pm mobile phones, no BlackBerrys, no lying in bed, no Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): We meet today as the mixing or drinking with their gang mates and no shop-lifting country reels from the senseless and sickening scenes or shop thieving, for either sport or supplies. In other that it has seen. People’s feelings are raw, and the full words, we should disrupt their social networking and enormity of events is only just sinking in, but at least perhaps give them some education, hopefully, while Parliament has today begun to give voice to people’s obtaining some real community work from them, if we concerns. It has articulated clearly the majority feeling can. in the country that this was a mindless spree of violence That will cost money, but it just might help. It might for which no excuses can be made, and which must be give a break. If we can do that at the bottom—some dealt with severely. Opposition Members who have had the same experience We have made a start on the long and difficult task of as I have will recognise this—we will start to stop rebuilding communities shattered by the experience, feeding the gangs in our inner city and to stop them bridging the divide between the generations, and bringing spreading. the country back together. For thousands of people, this has been the worst and most terrifying week of 7.27 pm their life. Some have seen homes and businesses lost or Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I damaged; others have felt real fear on the streets where think the public will approve of the measured tone of they live, perhaps for the first time. Many of them will many of today’s contributions. have been watching our debate today. They will have Many constituents contacted me to say that they did heard powerful contributions from my right hon. Friends not want to see point scoring. Let me mention just two. the Members for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), and for A woman called Jenny Ellis said that the public want a Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks); from the hon. Member resolution of this crisis. She went on to say that I should for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell); and from my hon. feel free to give the Prime Minister a hard time on police Friends the Members for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana budgets in the future, but for now we should concentrate Mahmood), for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), for on reclaiming the streets and dealing with these criminals. Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd), for Liverpool, Wavertree A vicar’s wife who helps lots of less fortunate people in (Luciana Berger), and for Hackney North and Stoke my constituency was clear that this is not about disadvantage Newington (Ms Abbott), to name a few. but wanton vandalism and theft. She is also a magistrate I hope that in the powerful words of those speeches, who will be sitting on Friday and she wants our support the people watching our debate have heard echoes of for the courts to take a robust line with these offenders. their own thoughts—things said that they feel needed to I will not argue that everyone should get a custodial be said. It is small comfort, but perhaps they will end sentence, tempting though that is, but we will let the today with at least some sense that somebody is listening— public down if those with previous convictions are that they are our priority. They must remain so over the bailed or if those granted bail commit further offences. coming weeks until Parliament resumes. I was shocked to read in the Birmingham Mail that one of the first rioters to be sentenced, for assault on a Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Does my right prison officer, got 10 weeks, of which he will probably hon. Friend share my hope that when Parliament resumes, serve five. those hon. Members whose constituencies have been 1197 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1198

[Barry Gardiner] Today has been important because one after another, Members on both sides have sent a message to the affected but who have not been able to engage in this young people of England—a message that may not debate due simply to lack of time today will have a always come through to them from the media debate on chance to revisit the issue and put on record their these issues. Every single Member of the House meets constituents’ concerns, including about their livelihoods, decent and conscientious young people week in, week which have been threatened? out. The vast majority are making a positive contribution to their communities. Indeed, they have been doing so this week, helping with the clean-up operations around Andy Burnham: It is vital that hon. Members have the country. We simply will not allow a senseless minority that opportunity, as my hon. Friend suggests. The issues to sully the reputation of our young people, divide the will not go away once the media crews depart, as my generations one from another or make them fearful of hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke one another. We must also pledge to work hard to Newington said. People in the communities concerned ensure that the voices of young people are heard in this will live with the issues for some time, and it is vital that debate as it unfolds. Perhaps with the inquiry that the we follow the matter through. As my right hon. Friend Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee has announced, the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) said, we must ensure that their voices are heard in shaping we need to stand side by side with the communities the response to these events. affected. She spoke for not just her constituency, but every proud and right-minded person in Greater In the aftermath of any serious event, it is right that Manchester, and I thank her for what she said. we all reflect on the circumstances and, where necessary, For the most part, the contributions have been well learn lessons. A number of issues have been raised judged. They have avoided political point-scoring, self- today on which we hope that the Government will serving or simplistic arguments, or excuses; people quite reflect. First, questions relating to the operational resources simply do not want to hear that. Instead, we must all and guidelines for the police have been raised by many focus on the job in hand, on a practical response, on hon. Members, including the hon. Members for Ealing lessons learned and on serious reflection on the deeper Central and Acton (Angie Bray) and for Battersea (Jane reasons why this happened. We have made a good start Ellison) and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, today on that task, and have sent a number of unambiguous Northfield (Richard Burden). messages. The first, to the courts and the legal system, is Acts of mob violence or vandalism are not new. I saw that all Members of the House expect them to bring the them myself at football grounds in the 1970s and 1980s. perpetrators to justice quickly and without leniency. What is new is the speed with which crowds can gather The second message today, which is to the police, fire and copycat violence can spread across a city and into and ambulance services—and indeed, as my hon. Friend other cities. That is a modern phenomenon made possible the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington by the misuse of communications technology. Policing said, to unsung public servants such as council workers needs to change to respond to it. As my right hon. and youth service workers—is that we deeply appreciate Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles said so their efforts in recent days to protect our communities, powerfully, we simply cannot have a situation in which and that they will have full backing from across the police officers have to stand by and thugs take control House for an uncompromising response, should problems of the streets. So we urge the Home Secretary to work recur. Thirdly, we have sent a message to the victims of with ACPO on this, as she said she would in her speech. the appalling crimes. We also ask her to think again on the question of police numbers, which was raised by so many hon. Members Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): this afternoon, and not in a point-scoring way. We Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is the fear that heard these points raised by the hon. Member for has been so shocking—the fear felt by my constituents Croydon Central and in a powerful speech by the hon. in Mitcham and Morden and people across London? Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), who Now is not the time to withdraw those police, fire and called for a review of this issue. council officers; they need to stay in their places and bring back reassurance for many of our communities. People in London will have noticed the divergent statements made by the Mayor of London and Ministers. It seems premature for Ministers simply to rule out any Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend is right. Communities extra funding. It is not just about the Met. Cuts to that have been affected will only just be coming to terms frontline policing are happening all over the country, with what has happened, and they need to see people and people in other parts of the country know that standing with them in the days and weeks to come to shortages in the Met are filled by forces elsewhere. ensure that they can rebuild their lives and their Rather than dismissing calls for funding to support communities. We need to send a message from here police numbers, would it not make sense for the Government today to those people who have been the victims of to reserve their position until they have received a crimes, and have felt that fear. The message is that this detailed report from the acting Commissioner of the House is united in ensuring that they receive practical Met and from chief constables of other forces affected and financial help without delay to rebuild homes, on the operational challenges that they faced in the businesses and communities. Encouraging statements nights earlier this week? have been made today by the Prime Minister. We thank him for what he said, but he will expect us, as the My appeal to the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister Opposition, to ensure that these words are followed and his Cabinet is not to announce a U-turn here, but at through, and we will indeed do that. least to have an open mind on the question of police 1199 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1200 numbers and to consider looking again at the resourcing Schools have an important role to play, as many hon. of our police forces when they have a clearer picture of Members said today. I again assure the Secretary of the pressure they have been under this week. State that we will continue to support the measures in his Education Bill that improve the tackling of discipline Secondly, there are questions about the resources and in schools. I give him my word on that, but I ask him to capacity of our courts and prisons. We appreciate the look at some of the things we did that are working, such efforts of court staff to hear cases—indeed they have sat as the use of school-based police officers, who are very through the night, as many hon. Members have mentioned. important in building links with young people to ensure We want that to continue. There must be no return to a steady flow of information between them and the business as usual or long delays before people stand police. I urge him to reflect on that. trial. We welcome the report in the Manchester Evening News which shows how the courts are cracking on with As our debate has revealed, the challenges we face are the job of delivering instant justice. That is indeed what complex and must be approached on many levels. My the public want and we urge the Government to find the right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton resources to make sure that people are brought to trial. (Sir Gerald Kaufman) was right to draw a comparison As my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn with the early 1980s, when Michael Heseltine went (Mr Straw) said today, the Government need to look around the country to engage deeply with the issues again at the number of prison places, and at sentencing that affected people. I hope the Government will think policy to ensure that it reflects the mood of the House, about that and about the calls they have heard today for and indeed the mood of the whole country. We urge a deeper commission of inquiry on the issues, alongside them to do that. the Home Affairs Committee inquiry. That will help us all to avoid simplistic solutions to fit Thirdly, points have been raised today by my right a preordained political narrative. For the left, it means hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary about the not blaming everything on cuts. For the right, it means Government’s approach to tackling antisocial behaviour not demonising an underclass. It also means taking care and the use of CCTV.In the early days of the Government, in the language that is used. I do not think any part of a change of policy was signalled, away from the use of this country is sick or broken. Every community has CCTV,antisocial behaviour orders and the DNA database, solidarity, decency and neighbourly spirit in it, with but as we have seen, CCTV is being used extensively to people trying to do the right thing. Every community bring the perpetrators of violence and vandalism to has the capacity for self-improvement. We should support justice. Listening to the Prime Minister today, I detected them, not knock them down and label them. a different tone on these issues, and I welcome that change of tone. We welcome his recognition of the As the hon. Member for Northampton South said, value of CCTV and the reassurance it can bring to addressing the deeper challenges means a deeper assessment many of the communities affected this week. We will of our society. In a powerful contribution, my right continue to seek assurances that the Government will hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham spoke about not hinder its use by local authorities. The Government challenging the ″Grand Theft Auto″ culture that glamorises need to take care that they do not send mixed or violence, and I entirely agree. We need a culture of confusing signals in the whole area of tackling antisocial responsibility in our schools, but we also need to face behaviour. up to the fact that for all the progress we have made, our country is still scarred by serious inequality of opportunity, Fourthly, concerns have been raised today about the where life chances are unevenly spread and young people advice and support available to young people. Let me be without social networks and connections often struggle clear: nobody rioted because of cuts to youth services, to make their way in the world. Connexions or the careers service, yet all those services We need to consider those questions, but they are for have an important role to play in the response on the another day. It has been a dark week, but the country ground to rebuilding shattered communities. Youthworkers should draw strength from the unanimity that the House are front-line prevention in many of our communities. has found today and, indeed, our dedication to respond The Home Secretary mentioned the work she wants to collectively in the right way. At the close of the debate, it put in place to tackle gang culture, and I welcome what is right to pause for a moment to think of those who are she said. However, it is important to recognise that recovering from injuries sustained, and particularly the youth services in parts of London and other cities have families of Mark Duggan, Haroon Jahan, Shahzad Ali been working painstakingly for many years to prevent and Abdul Musavir. As we go away from here this young people from falling in with gangs, yet as the evening, back to our families, we should do so with the Select Committee on Education recently reported, there words of Haroon’s father at the front of our minds and is a significant loss of youth service support on the the hope that we will find in the days and weeks ahead ground, with cuts of up to 100% in some areas. I urge the same unbelievable strength, understanding and courage the Secretary of State for Education to look carefully at to deal with these events as he has shown. what the Select Committee said.

Questions were raised in the debate about parenting, 7.45 pm which is an issue that unites the House. We support parents, particularly young single parents, in giving the The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): best possible support to their children. Following the We have had a very good debate today, and the speeches Allen and Field reports, I urge the right hon. Gentleman of hon. Members on both sides of the House have been to be vigilant about changes to the support offered of a uniformly high standard. The contributions made through Sure Start and other early intervention services by hon. Friends and other hon. Members have made me so that we ensure that valuable services for parents are proud to be a Member of Parliament. It was a vindication not lost. of your decision, Mr Speaker, to recall the House. 1201 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1202

[Michael Gove] restraint through the past week because they have grown up with a male role model, a moral code and a recognition In the past 15 months, Parliament has resumed its of boundaries. He made the critical point that our great central place in the life of the nation, and the House cities of course rely on our police forces, but ultimately and its Committees have done superb work. Once again, order is policed by individuals who show pride, shame today, Members have faithfully reflected their constituents’ and responsibility to others. I could not have put it concerns and spoken in a way that enhances the reputation better myself. of the House and electoral politics. I also agree with the sentiments expressed by the hon. I am particularly grateful to hon. Members from Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander). I share Lewisham, Enfield, Ilford, Ealing, Wolverhampton, her sorrow at having to come back to this House from Hackney, Tottenham, Battersea, Bristol, Liverpool and her honeymoon, but I have to say that, even though her Manchester for their speeches, which reflected their husband may be disappointed, her constituents should direct personal engagement with those who have been be proud of her for the speech she made today. She victims of this terrible week. The fact that they all spoke pointed out that the riots are a result of disaffected and with such force and eloquence underlines the fact that marginalised youth who have grown up in households we have Members who listen and are in touch, who act where no one gives a damn, where violence is glamorised and then report back and who analyse what has gone and where there is real poverty, particularly of responsibility wrong and argue for a better country. In that sense, and aspiration. It was a superb speech and she has done when I hear calls for a commission of inquiry, I take the a great job for her constituents. old-fashioned view that Members of Parliament are My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick inquiring into the state of the nation, reporting back to de Bois) drew a vivid and affecting picture of how one the House and arguing passionately for change and that of London’s most attractive suburbs could be convulsed we should always stress that there is no better voice of by violence, as individuals intent on wrongdoing took the nation than this Chamber, and it has never done its to the streets in the most wicked of ways. He asked job better than at the moment, reflecting the anger but detailed and constructive questions about the roles that also the hope of our constituents. the local authority, schools and TFL can play in making sure that our response to future events is sharper. We Barry Gardiner: Despite what the right hon. Gentleman will write to him to ensure that his constituents’ concerns has just said, does he understand the concern not just in are addressed. the House but across the nation that a public inquiry My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane should be held into the events that have gone on? This Ellison) made a brilliant speech, in which she spoke up has been a national event; it has affected people in every with passion on behalf of her constituents, pointing out part of the country, and if it is simply left to a Select that, for all those young people who picked up a brick Committee, they will not feel that it has been properly in anger or greed on the night that violence gripped her addressed. constituency, there were many, many more who picked up a broom in optimism and hope the next morning. Michael Gove: The point was made constructively, That underlines what the past week has shown: both the and I hope to respond in a constructive fashion. I will worst and the best of our country. not rule anything out at this stage. We are still in the We see the worst when a 31-year-old man who is a middle of restoring order. It is vital and appropriate learning mentor in a primary school, whose job is to that we show ourselves open to learning lessons, but I inspire the young, is found guilty of burglary. We see it absolutely have confidence in the right hon. Member when a daughter of a millionaire couple who had the for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). The Home Affairs best education the state can provide becomes, it is Committee has done a great job in the past 15 months, alleged, a getaway driver for two other young criminals. and he will do a superb job. The terms of reference of When we watch the video of a young boy, who travelled his inquiry seem to be broad and comprehensive. But, across the world from Malaysia to study in this country of course, lessons will need to be learned, and while we because he saw us as a civilised community and a place are in the process of restoring order it would be premature of hope and learning, apparently being helped up, only for any of us to say that our minds are closed to any to be robbed, all of us are sickened and ask: how can constructive suggestion about what we can learn. this happen in our country? When we think about the Sri Lankan couple, who fled civil strife in their own Jeremy Corbyn: Will the right hon. Gentleman give country to come here and build a life and a business, way? only to see their business trashed by criminals, or when we think of Salford town centre, which has been regenerated Michael Gove: Not yet. by an imaginative town council and a great MP, sent I should like briefly to refer to four particularly back a generation in one night by the violence of thugs, outstanding speeches that were made during the debate, we all ask ourselves: why has a culture of greed and the first of which came from the right hon. Member for instant gratification, rootless hedonism and amoral violence Tottenham (Mr Lammy). The points that he made taken hold in parts of our society? resonated. From the moment that Mark Duggan’s tragic Even as we despair, we can hope, because we have death came on to our television screens through to the also seen the best of Britain this week, such as the horrific scenes that we saw over the weekend, the right volunteers mentioned by many today who took part in hon. Gentleman’s voice has been one of common sense the clean-up operation immediately afterward. The hon. and moral clarity at a difficult time. His speech again Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington today was superb, when he pointed out that the vast (Ms Abbott) made the vital point that local authority majority of young men did indeed show respect and officials, officers and workers have done an exemplary 1203 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1204 job, not least in her own constituency, where the mayor (Angie Bray), for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and for of Hackney, Jules Pipe, has shown real civic leadership. Ilford North (Mr Scott), the hon. Member for Lewisham The way in which people who take pride in their community East and the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles worked hard the next day to clean up the mess that had (Hazel Blears), all of whom encouraged the police to been created by an amoral minority was, to my mind, take a more robust stance, will find and have found a the very exemplar of public service. Also, let us not willing audience in those who are responsible for deploying forget the work of the fire and ambulance services, who, the forces that maintain order. alongside the police, risked life and limb to restore Both my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and order and to ensure that people were safe. the Home Secretary agree. I have been privileged to We should take pride in the way in which multicultural spend time attending the Cobra briefing meetings over Britain rose to this unique challenge: the Turkish citizens the past week, and I have seen the degree of willing of Dalston who defended their families and businesses; co-operation, energy, imagination and determination the Sikh citizens of Southall who defended their gurdwara on the part of both the civil powers and the police to and their families; and the British Muslim citizens of deal with the situation that we faced. Birmingham who sought to defend their communities. Of course there are suggestions from hon. Members When three of them were mown down by one evil about things that we might consider in the future. I was individual, we saw the best and the worst of Britain particularly struck by the powerful speech from my clash in one moment. All of us were moved beyond hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) words by what Tariq Jahan said about the death of his who, speaking as someone who is a special constable, son and the lesson that we should learn. We have seen made a strong case for the deployment, if necessary, of modern Britons across this country stand up for old- water cannon. Let me underline to the House that the fashioned British values of decency, solidarity and a operational requirements of the police will be met in determination to protect the vulnerable. If there are full by the Government. If they need support or help, examples that we should bear in mind in this House and they will get it. Yes, it is the Home Secretary’s ultimate in our work in the weeks ahead, it is the leadership that decision whether a police force can use water cannon, those individuals have shown. but if any chief constable considers it appropriate to As well as seeing the best and the worst, we have deal with any aspect of civil disorder, this Home Secretary witnessed a conflict on our streets between right and has made it clear that she is on their side, and I hope the wrong. Those who have been committing these acts are whole House will be. Mercifully, those steps have not individuals without boundaries, respect for others, or needed to be taken, and our tradition of community-based any moral sense. Those who were standing out against policing by consent has seen our police force restore them and protecting us were the police. Let me pay order to our streets with the help of our communities. tribute to the courage that has been shown by ordinary As we look at the way in which the police operate, it is officers in the course of this week. Their leave was important that we do not back-pedal on reform. Our cancelled. Many of them have been working with very police are still held back by a legacy of bureaucracy that little sleep, facing the prospect of real violence and I know all of us on both sides of the House want to damage to life and limb, yet have uncomplainingly gone tackle. There are still 1,000 process steps and 70 forms out there to protect us. We can be proud of those to get through when they are dealing with a simple officers and the commanders, who have had to take burglary. Twenty-two per cent. of police time is spent terrible risks but who have ensured that for the moment on paperwork. Jan Berry, the former head of the Police order has been restored. Federation, has pointed out that one third of police We heard how borough commanders from Hackney effort is over-engineered, duplicated or adds no value. to Wandsworth and Ealing to Redbridge have ensured We can reform our police force in order to ensure that that the reputation of the Met, having taken a battering the officers we have are there on the streets where we in recent months, is once again restored as a force that need them, and this should be a cause that unites us we can all take pride in. The chief constables of west across the House in a determination to ensure that midlands and Greater Manchester, faced with tremendous police professionalism is respected. challenges, have also shown courage and imagination. But as the right hon. Member for Tottenham pointed We should applaud their bravery. Yes, there will be out earlier, when we want our streets policed, we need lessons to be learned. Yes, inevitably, in a difficult them to be policed as much by the moral self-restraint situation, when there was no intelligence of what was of individuals as the uniformed presence of officers, going to happen, mistakes will have been made, but how and that means that we need to affirm at this time the many of us could show the same degree of courage and values that we all know have been overlooked or neglected resolution, faced with young men bent on violence and in the past. We all know that a culture of dutiless rights determined to cause havoc, when we knew that if we has led to a generation of parentless children. Being a stepped out of line or transgressed the rules, we could father means taking on the most important job in the find that our own life, livelihood and reputation were world, and those who are there when a child is conceived gone? Let us remember just how difficult modern policing should be there when a child is raised. We need to is, before any of us casts a rhetorical stone at any of remember: I am my brother’s keeper. We have a those individuals. responsibility to others, and all of us find a fulfilment in There were, across the House, widespread expressions service that is greater than anything that can be found in of support for the police and for a more robust stance in shallow hedonism or instant gratification. We need to the future. Having talked to a variety of police officers say to the young people of this country—and the over the past week, I know that the sentiments expressed overwhelming majority know it and want to hear it in the House go with the grain of policing opinion. My affirmed—that hard work, self-discipline, aspiration, hon. Friends the Members for Ealing Central and Acton respectability and respect for others, the values by which 1205 Public Disorder11 AUGUST 2011 Public Disorder 1206

[Michael Gove] ADJOURNMENT Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.— they lead their lives, are the values that we will defend (Miss Chloe Smith.) whenever and wherever they come under attack. I am so grateful that so many Members from both sides of the House have affirmed those principles tonight— 8pm 8pm Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). House adjourned. 119WS Written Ministerial Statements11 AUGUST 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 120WS

The flexible scheme will be aimed at supporting the Written Ministerial specific streets and areas where businesses have suffered most as a result of the disturbances. Statements Authorities will be able to use it to: fund the proportion of hardship relief from business rates Thursday 11 August 2011 that would otherwise fall to them; help affected firms to get back up and running quickly, for instance if assistance is needed with business clear-up, BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS replacement of equipment, or costs of temporary accommodation. Public Disorder (Business Support) We will keep the steps we have taken under review. This is an evolving situation and we are working to assess the cost to affected businesses. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Business Rates. Skills (Vince Cable): The appalling criminality we have seen across England in recent days has devastated not Central Government will fund three quarters of the only local communities but also a very significant number cost of hardship rate relief to give businesses in need of businesses. BIS and other Government Departments relief from business rates. Through the High Street are working with local enterprise partnerships, local Support Scheme we will also cover the proportion authorities and business organisations to ensure affected normally borne by local authorities. businesses have access to practical advice, information Seriously damaged business properties will be taken and support to get back on their feet as quickly as off valuation lists, and the Secretary of State for possible. I would like to set out what help and advice we Communities has strongly encouraged the Valuation can offer these businesses. Office Agency to do so as promptly as possible. This Insurance removes any liability for council tax or business rates. Businesses which have suffered loss should obtain a Access to Finance crime number from the police and contact their insurers We are working closely with the British Bankers immediately. We are working closely with the insurance Association to ensure that affected businesses of all industry to make sure that all claims from affected sizes, but especially small businesses, receive help. businesses are dealt with swiftly and satisfactorily. The Association of British Insurers (ABI) have confirmed Where businesses have been affected by the recent that insurers’ priority is to help business through this rioting banks have put in place special arrangements traumatic period. Insurers are working as quickly as to make sure that emergency enquiries from affected they can to deal with claims and most have 24-hour customers can be dealt with simply and quickly. call centres. Banks have put in place numbers for customers to The ABI advise us that their member companies will call, teams are available inside the banks to help and be on hand to answer any questions that affected business relationship managers are getting in contact. businesses may have. Most commercial insurance policies The banks will sympathetically and sensitively consider will cover businesses for damage to their premises, the problems of each business. Additional financial including the interruption to their business as a result support will be available should it be required to of fire, looting and the other damage caused by the provide solutions for the affected businesses. These recent riots. Some policies will also cover those businesses include, for example, where necessary making available which are not damaged but whose trade has been short to medium-term finance arrangements for repairs affected by the aftermath. and to replace stock, and repayment holidays until Any uninsured individual, homeowner or business insurance claims are settled. that has suffered damage to or loss of their buildings or property as a result of rioting, can seek compensation Tax from their Police Authority under the Riot Damages HMRC will delay tax payments for businesses needing Act. It is normally the case that claims must be help through Time to Pay and will offer other practical received within 14 days but to give people more time support. They have today announced a single, Civil to submit these claims the Home Secretary is extending Disorder Helpline number—0845 3661207 to provide the period to 42 days. comprehensive advice. They will deal sympathetically Online information and advice with problems currently faced by businesses and Our online resource for business, www.businesslink. individuals, including: gov.uk, has already been updated with practical advice agreeing payment schedules, including short tem deferrals, and information on business continuity, risk management, with those who are unable to pay their tax bills due to and safety guidance. The business link national helpline temporary financial difficulties; number is 0845 600 9006. practical solutions where businesses and individuals cannot This is in addition to advice issued by local police meet their other obligations—for instance, if their records forces and specific information circulated by relevant have been lost or destroyed in the disturbances. trade associations. Companies House High Street Support Scheme If any affected business will be unable to file accounts Affected businesses will also be able to call upon help or other documents on time as a direct result of the from the new £20 million High Street Support Scheme disturbances. Companies House will agree an extension that I am announcing today jointly with the Secretary and ensure that companies do not incur the usual of State for Communities and Local Government. penalties which apply for late filings. 121WS Written Ministerial Statements11 AUGUST 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 122WS

Employment advice In this extraordinary situation, my Department is ACAS have issued advice on good practice regarding also willing to meet the immediate costs of re-housing management of employees in these circumstances. those made homeless by these disturbances. This can be This includes advice and information about the legal done under established homelessness funding processes. position for employees and employers especially where Seriously damaged domestic and business properties there is disruption to normal working hours http:// will be taken off the respective valuation lists, and I www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3418. have strongly encouraged the Valuation Office Agency I would like to express my appreciation to those to do so as promptly as possible. This removes any business organisations whose members have been affected liability for council tax or business rates. and who have responded with urgency to provide advice High Street Support Scheme and support at this difficult time. I would also like to With my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for thank all their members and local branches who have Business, Innovation and Skills, we will provide an worked closely with the police. additional £20 million to create a new High Street Support Scheme. The flexible scheme will be aimed at Bank Business Contact Number supporting the specific streets and areas where businesses Bank of Scotland 0845 300 0268 suffered most as a result of the disturbances. Local To make an insurance claim call authorities will be able to use it to fund the proportion - 0844 893 9582 of hardship relief from business rates that would otherwise For general inquiries call - 0800 048 4363 fall to them, and to help affected firms to get back up and running quickly, for instance if assistance is needed Barclays 0845 605 2345 with business clear-up, replacement of equipment, or HSBC 08457 606 060 costs of temporary accommodation. A quarter of the Lloyds TSB 0845 072 5555 To make an insurance claim call cost of hardship rate relief is normally borne by local - 0844 893 9580 authorities and three quarters by central Government. For general inquiries call - 0844 We will keep the steps we have taken under review. 893 9560 This is an evolving situation and we are working to NatWest 0800 158 5977 assess the cost to affected businesses. We will announce RBS 0800 092 3087 further details of the Recovery Scheme and High Street Santander 0800 056 1991 Support Scheme next week and expect that councils will The Government recognise that the impact on business be able to make claims and receive grants quickly and will continue beyond this immediate recovery period, easily. and we will continue to work together with business In addition, any individual, home owner or small organisations to identify what longer-term help is needed. business that has suffered damage to or loss of their This is particularly true of our high streets which the buildings or property as a result of rioting can seek Government are committed to supporting and promoting. compensation under the Riot (Damages) Act. Importantly We will also work with the foreign investor community this compensation is paid to the uninsured too. It is to restore confidence in the UK as a destination for normally the case that claims must be received within investment. BIS Local will work closely with local enterprise 14 days, but to give people more time to submit these partnerships and local authorities to secure a prosperous claims we will extend the period to 42 days. We will urge and vibrant future for our local high streets. the police to respond helpfully and swiftly to all legitimate claims, and the Government are working closely with COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT forces, to ensure they have the funds they need to meet the costs of the operation itself and any claims that they Public Disorder (Community Support) may receive under the Riot (Damages) Act. It is not just for the state to support local firms The Secretary of State for Communities and Local affected by these criminal actions. I encourage every Government (Mr Eric Pickles): I wish to outline the local resident to make an effort to shop locally in this steps we are taking to support and rebuild local communities and coming weeks and support the local high streets after the shameful criminal activity of recent days. which are the lifeblood of our communities. Recovery Scheme Sanctions against criminals Affected local authorities will continue to be eligible Crime does not pay and I want to send out a strong for the long-standing Bellwin scheme to meet immediate signal to these violent criminals. and sizeable recovery costs. However, the thresholds in It is already a ground for eviction in existing legislation the existing scheme mean that most councils would only if a tenant or a member of their family is involved in receive assistance above costs in excess of circa £l million, antisocial behaviour or criminal activity in their local and we assess that many affected local authorities may neighbourhood. I would urge landlords to consider this not benefit. provision. We welcome the decision of Hammersmith To support local councils, I am establishing a new and Fulham, Greenwich, Southwark and Manchester recovery scheme of up to £10 million, allocated to among others to seek to evict their social tenants found councils via Section 31 grants. Councils will be able to guilty of rioting, and would encourage more local claim back the costs directly incurred in making areas authorities to follow suit. safe, clean and clear again. This fund can also be used My Department is proposing to make necessary changes to support councils who use their powers to offer council to housing legislation so that landlords will have even tax discounts or council tax relief to those whose homes stronger powers to evict tenants who engage in serious have been damaged but are still habitable. antisocial behaviour or criminal activity such as rioting 123WS Written Ministerial Statements11 AUGUST 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 124WS beyond the local neighbourhood. We intend to consult We all owe them all a debt of gratitude for their on this proposal immediately as part of the ongoing tireless work protecting lives and communities, and we consultation on anti-social behaviour. have a fire and rescue service of which we can rightly Tribute to local communities proud. The professionalism shown by all firefighters across the nation over the last few days has been outstanding, and I would like to thank all of them for their efforts. Local councils have also risen to the challenge, leading Fire crews have carried out their duties in the face of the clear-up in their local areas and supporting those shameful criminal behaviour of rioters, who have physically worst affected. There have been some striking examples attacked the very people protecting their homes and of positive social action, uniting our communities across communities from arson. class, colour and creed.

13P Petitions11 AUGUST 2011 Petitions 14P

decision was entirely in the bank’s favour, and the furore Petitions around the unsuccessful case shows how strong popular feeling is about this matter; that banks make over Thursday 11 August 2011 £1 billion each year through these fees, on top of their other profits.

PRESENTED PETITIONS Further declares that bankruptcy laws have been tightened without public consultation or even widespread Petitions presented to the House but not read on the Floor knowledge; most websites on debt do not mention changes to bankruptcy laws, including the Government’s; Access by Landlords in this time, debt has become very common; that debt is The Petition of a resident of Norwich, seen as bad but it is often the only way to improve circumstances, such as setting up business or paying for Declares that at present there are no laws or guidelines an education; that debt is also a result of materialism to prevent landlords appearing outside tenants’ homes and consumerist society; that Government cuts, especially or undertaking disruptive work at any hour; considers to legal aid and for medical treatment, make this worse. that landlords are in effect on tenants’ premises when in the communal hallways of properties that have been Further declares that the petitioner believes that divided into flats and bedsits; and further declares that bankruptcy laws have been put in place by those who this interferes with a tenant’s “right to peacefully and are well off; that the previous £50 free spending money privately enjoy”, in accordance with the standard contract. a month was tight—but the current £10 for three years The Petition also declares that, although working patterns shows no understanding of modern life or poverty; that vary, evenings and weekends should not be interrupted £10 per family member shows no understanding of by landlords to enable tenants to enjoy privacy in their single people and expects the burden and shame of homes; noting that, as landlords often collect money for bankruptcy to be spread across a whole household; and doing nothing, it is doubly unfair not to show respect that for a person already under pressure, to not have for those to whom they have a duty of care as well as a any kind of relief asks for other problems, such as business relationship. depression, as £10 a month means a single coffee a The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of week, is not enough to buy a meal out, to allow you to Commons urges the Government to restrict landlords’ leave your home town, to rent a DVD each week, for a access to their rented properties in the following ways: television licence; that bankrupts may have to sell anything (1) other than in the case of an emergency, landlords of value; that the law does not understand how things and their agents should not be inside [or by] tenanted like DVD players, music and especially instruments, or properties before 8 am and after 7 pm on weekdays; at computer games are vital; that whatever our financial weekends; or on bank holidays; (2) prospective tenants circumstances, we all need a richer life, and after and should only be shown around between 10 am and 8 pm, during all the indignity and stress of debt, having tenants would not be expected to comply with requests pleasures and passions taken away is wrong and unfair; for viewings of their homes outside these hours; and that being without a bank account is very hard in (3) tenants must be notified of works to be carried out today’s society—it is necessary to have one in order to on adjoining properties, particularly in the case of flats receive benefits; that anything extra the insolvent earns in a single property. during those three years goes to the creditor, meaning that doing better financially gives bankrupts no relief And the Petitioners remain, etc. and no benefit; that insolvents are even asked to pay to [P000954] become insolvent, and are publically shamed by having their bankruptcy published. Banking and Bankruptcy Further declares that the petitioner believes that our whole ethos is built up on a contractual debt, blame and The Petition of Elspeth Rushbrook, punishment that enters into every part of our existence; Declares that the petitioner believes that the current banks and law unfairly control much of our society; the rules regarding banking and bankruptcy need urgently recurrence of recessions and other problems suggest revising; that since the downturn, there is very strong that our current systems are not the way, and invite us negative public feeling towards financial institutions; to urgently look again—not try to continue much as that there is much anger at the bonuses and that public before. money has bailed out highly paid bankers of a crisis Further declares that the petitioner believes that one which we are suffering and paying for in many senses, should not have to pay to declare oneself bankrupt; that while banks create debts for private customers as well as bankruptcy should last and have effect for only one the country as a whole. year; that there should be no public publication and Further declares that banks extract huge fees from shaming; that the allowable personal budget should thousands of personal customers for going only a little return to £50 per month, and to rise appropriately with over a limit, and these fees have no cap; fees of up to inflation; that bankruptcy should not affect members of £100 per month are taken automatically and there are a household or family, only the persons directly filing cases where these have made those in hardship have for it; that creditors should not be able to take extra four figure fees while investigations go on; that this can moneys earned in this time; that there should be a lead to loss of banking facilities and demands for system in place to allow bank accounts for bankrupts further money from banks; that the High Court test without further fees; that there should be no ban on case was a very drawn out way of looking at this issue, public offices or other roles; that personal bankruptcy which is clearly deeply unbalanced; that the High Court should not stop a self-employed business and vice versa; 15P Petitions11 AUGUST 2011 Petitions 16P that this is the livelihood and will mean no money for Further declares that bailiffs should be stopped the person filing as bankrupt; that creditors should not immediately; that it is unsupportable to be harassed in be able to force borrowers into bankruptcy, particularly your home for goods not related to the creditor’s claims. when the creditors have created the debt, such as with banking fees or aggressive lending. Further declares that banking fees should be abolished immediately; that such fees are not necessary, as they Further declares that the petitioner believes that student are only partly as a deterrent; that if one goes over one’s loans of all kinds should be covered by bankruptcy; account’s limit, the account should simply not allow that the 2004 ban should be repealed as should the further withdrawals until further funds are put in; that March 2011 legislation. banks should be banned immediately from following up Further declares that the petitioner believes that having fees with demands to further repay overdrafts; that to attend a court hearing in respect of bankruptcy where in the past, unreasonable fees have been charged should be stopped—this is extra stress and cost (to and or hardship has been caused, these fees should be attend) and quite often humiliation. returned to customers. Further declares that the petitioner believes that Further declares that the blame, debt and contract information from debt advice centres should also be system of our society needs to be revisited and debate looked at, as many of these encourage insolvency as an begun and implemented about a fairer way forward. easy way of freedom, and do not present the facts The petitioner therefore requests that the House of properly. Commons urges the Government to urgently review Further declares that the petitioner believes that the these rules and the ethos behind them. law should protect genuine people from large preying creditors without encouraging non-payment from reckless And the Petitioner remains, etc. borrowers. [P000955] 1147W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1148W

demand exceeds this, the banks will lend more. £76 billion Written Answers to of this lending will be to small and medium-sized Enterprises (SMEs). This is a 15% increase on 2010 Questions lending of £66 billion. The Government are also taking forward their plans to ensure a healthier consumer credit market through Thursday 11 August 2011 the review of Consumer Credit and Personal Insolvency. The Government are also consulting on the merits of shifting responsibility for consumer credit regulation from the Office of Fair Trading to the new Financial LEADER OF THE HOUSE Conduct Authority, as part of the Government’s wider Departmental Air Travel plans to reform the financial services regulatory framework.

John Mann: To ask the Leader of the House on what Nuclear Power: Finance occasions he has flown on official business (a) by budget airline and (b) in economy class in the last 12 months. Martin Horwood: To ask the Chancellor of the [67911] Exchequer if he will publish the (a) analysis and (b) calculations underlying his Department’s estimate that Sir George Young: I have not flown on official business the existing nuclear sector is likely to receive on average during the last 12 months. £50 million per annum to 2030 in higher wholesale electricity prices attributable to the carbon price Departmental Responsibilities support proposals in the Finance (No 3) Bill. [57982]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Leader of the House on how Justine Greening: The figure is based on public data many occasions a request for a meeting by an hon. and Government’s assessment of the industry, which Member of each political party was refused by (a) a was applied to the likely change in electricity generation Minister in his Office directly and (b) his Office on capacity and changes in the wholesale price of electricity. behalf of a Minister in November 2010. [67587] The figure is a result of the modelled impact of the price floor on wholesale prices until the late 2020s. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons, Pensions the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), and I did not refuse any meetings with hon. or right hon. Karen Lumley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Members during November 2010. how many and what proportion of people in employment My hon. Friend and I are always happy to meet with contribute to (a) a public and (b) a private pension. hon. and right hon. Members from all sides of the [67493] House. Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply. The information requested is as follows: TREASURY (a) In 2010, 84% of people in employment in the public sector were members of workplace pension schemes. This represents Business: Loans 6.2 million employee jobs. (b) In 2010, 36% of people in employment in the private sector Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Chancellor of the were members of workplace pension schemes. This represents 6.6 million employee jobs. Exchequer what steps he is taking to create a more competitive banking industry in order to improve the These estimates are from the Office for National availability of loans for (a) consumers and (b) small Statistics (ONS) Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings businesses. [47955] (ASHE).

Mr Hoban: The Government are clear that competition drives efficiency and helps to ensure that consumers are able to access the wide range of financial products that ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS they need. The Independent Commission on Banking, under Access to Work Programme the Chairmanship of Sir John Vickers, has been asked to consider structural and non-structural reforms to the Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for UK banking sector to promote competition and financial Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many disabled stability. The Commission will produce an interim report employees of her Department are receiving support in April and their final report in September 2011. from the Access to Work programme; and what proportion On 9 February the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my of the workforce of her Department this figure represents. right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), [64395] announced a new lending commitment by the UK’s biggest high street banks. As part of this commitment Richard Benyon: Support and adjustments for disabled the banks intend to lend £190 billion of new credit to staff in Core DEFRA and its executive agencies are businesses in 2011, up from £179 billion in 2010 if mainly funded through departmental budgets with only 1149W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1150W a small proportion of staff receiving support from the Richard Benyon: There are 28 priority habitats with Access to Work Programme, as set out in the following quantitative targets set for 2010 and we will provide a table. report on progress against these targets by the end of 2011. DEFRA understands that member organisations Number of of Wildlife and Countryside Link are planning a report staff receiving Proportion on progress against the targets of certain priority species, support from of work also in 2011. DEFRA/agency access to work force (%)

Core DEFRA 0 — Animal Health/Veterinary 0— Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control Laboratories Agency (AH/VLA) Centre for Environment, Fisheries 0— and Aquaculture Science Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for (CEFAS) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Food and Environment Research 19 2 assessment she has made of the effects of culling badgers Agency (FERA) on the incidence of bovine tuberculosis in cattle. [64365] Rural Payments Agency (RPA) 20 0.07 Veterinary Medicines Directorate 0—Mr Paice: The results of the Randomised Badger (VMD) Culling Trial (RBCT) showed that badger culling, when done on a sufficient scale in a widespread, co-ordinated Apprentices and efficient way, and over a sustained period of time, would reduce the incidence of bovine TB in cattle in Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for high incidence areas. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her The evidence base on the effects of culling badgers on Department has a policy on requirements for the provision TB incidence in cattle was recently assessed at a meeting of (a) apprenticeships and (b) other training by (i) her between DEFRA’s Chief Scientific Adviser, Chief Department’s prime contractors and (ii) suppliers in the Veterinary Officer and a panel of independent experts. supply chain of such contractors. [66597] The key conclusions from this meeting, which includes a description of the Randomised Badger Culling Trial Richard Benyon: The Department and its Executive results and most up to date results of the ongoing agencies do not have a specific procurement policy that post-trial analysis, were recently published on the DEFRA details the provision of apprenticeships or other training website at: by its suppliers. These matters may be discussed with some suppliers in our contract meetings where these http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/ provisions may be relevant to the type of goods or atoz/tb/documents/bovinetb-scientificexperts-110404.pdf services supplied but are not included in any contractual terms. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many cattle Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for were slaughtered after testing positive for bovine tuberculosis Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many in (a) 2009 and (b) 2010. [64487] apprenticeships have been created directly by contracts with her Department in each of the last three years. Mr Paice: The number of cattle slaughtered as skin [66599] and interferon gamma test TB reactors in England was as follows: Richard Benyon: The Department and its executive 2009—24,500 agencies do not keep central or local records on the apprenticeships created directly as a result of contracts 2010—24,213. awarded. To identify this information would incur All TB reactors are regarded as infected and European disproportionate cost. and national legislation require all such animals to be slaughtered. Those cattle are then subject to post mortem Bed Bugs examination and a proportion of them will also be sampled for laboratory culture, but this is not to prove Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for or disprove the disease status of the animal. The primary Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many purpose of post mortem and bacteriological culture of infestations of bed bugs were notified to her Department TB test reactors is to assess the severity of infection and in each of the last 10 years. [65221] identify the strain of the causative bacterium—this is useful for epidemiological investigations and helps to Richard Benyon: The Department has not received support subsequent outbreak control efforts. TB is a any notifications of infestations of bed bugs. chronic and insidious infectious disease with potentially long incubation periods. In the early stages of this Biodiversity disease it is often not possible to see lesions with the naked eye, and due to the fastidious nature of the TB Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for bacterium (which may be present in low numbers in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she plans affected organs) it is not always possible to culture it to publish an analysis of progress against her Department’s from tissue samples. It is therefore wrong to consider all 2010 targets on biodiversity priority species and habitats TB reactors that fail to disclose evidence of infection in in England as part of the England Biodiversity Strategy. the slaughterhouse or in the laboratory as being “false [66727] positives” or “negative for the disease”. 1151W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1152W

Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for and publish trends in butterfly numbers. Figures on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate butterfly abundance are used in both our UK and she has made of the likely savings to her Department England biodiversity indicator sets. in compensation which would not need to be paid to In England, the most recent indicator assessment farmers in the next 10 years as a result of the showed long-term declines for many species up to and implementation of a badger cull. [67865] including the year 2009. Recently published data from Butterfly Conservation suggest that 2010 was a better Mr Paice: Over 10 years we would expect to see savings year, with marked recovery for some of the scarce on paying compensation to be as high as £1.6 million species, such as the Wood White or Marsh Fritillary, for a 350 sq km area. which appear to be benefitting from targeted conservation action. We intend to build on the successes of such Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for actions where Government and the voluntary sector Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what licences work together to secure benefits for wildlife. The recently have been issued under the Protection of Badgers Act published Natural Environment White Paper reaffirms 1992 in the last five years; and for what purposes, this commitment. including translocation and despatch and excluding the randomised badger cull trial. [67866] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: Statistics for licences issued by Natural Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment England under the Badger Act 1992 up to 30 June 2010 she has made of potential effects of the use of neonicotinoid are on the website at: pesticides on the butterfly population; and if she will http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/ make a statement. [67015] wildlife/licences/statistics.aspx In the five years 2006 to 2010, a total of 4,044 Richard Benyon: Under European legislation, pesticide licences were issued by Natural England, mostly for sett active substances are first evaluated at Community interference or disturbance, for the following purposes: level. A key part of the process is an assessment of risks to wildlife, including pollinators. If an active substance Purpose Number of licences issued meets the EU safety requirements, then products authorising that active substance can be authorised at member state Prevention of serious damage 2,154 level, taking into account that country’s individual Drainage or flood defence 257 agronomic, climatic and dietary requirements. Agricultural or Forestry 612 operations In the UK, pesticides can only be sold or used after Preventing the spread of disease 18 they have been authorised. As part of this process, the Development1 985 chemicals regulation directorate of the Health and Safety Science, Education and 18 Executive (the Government body responsible for regulating Conservation2 pesticides) undertakes an assessment of the toxicity of 1 Data for development licences issued in 2006 not included as each product and ways in which spray operators, the Natural England does not hold information for this. public or environment (including pollinators) may be 2 Data for licences issued for Scientific, Education or Conservation exposed. The purpose being to ensure that the use of purposes in 2006 and 2007 not included as Natural England does the product poses no unacceptable risks. not hold information for this. This table includes provisional statistics for the whole The assessment for neonicotinoid pesticides has of 2010, and may be subject to change as records for concluded that provided they are used in accordance 2010 are checked and updated. with their approved conditions of use, there is no unacceptable risk to pollinators, including butterfly and British Sky Broadcasting other non-target arthropod populations. The Government would not hesitate to act should Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for evidence emerge of an unacceptable risk. We continue Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her to monitor research and developments in other EU Department has spent on subscriptions to Sky TV member states and elsewhere to see if they are relevant since May 2010. [67562] to the UK and participate in initiatives such as the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Richard Benyon: The Department and its executive (OECD) working group on pesticides-supported project agencies have incurred no expenditure on subscriptions on the pesticide effects on insect pollinators. to Sky TV since May 2010. Butterflies Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she has to protect the butterfly population in (a) urban Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) rural areas; and if she will make a statement. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of changes in the population of butterflies [67016] in each of the last five years; and if she will make a statement. [67014] Richard Benyon: It is difficult to differentiate between butterfly conservation in urban and rural areas as there Richard Benyon: We work closely with Butterfly is significant overlap and inter-play between them. However, Conservation and the Natural Environment Research in general, rural areas contain a greater number of Council’s Centre for Ecology and Hydrology to compile specialist species and urban areas more generalist species. 1153W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1154W

Specialist species tend to be highly reliant on protection Natural England will continue to deliver and support through existing designated sites. Natural England is butterfly conservation work as it has done in the past, currently reviewing all sites of special scientific interest but the emphasis will shift to habitat management as (SSSIs) to ensure that the specific management requirements opposed to projects aimed at single species. This approach of specialist butterflies (and other species) are included is supported by Natural England research (Managing in the conservation objectives of these sites. for species: Integrating the needs of England’s priority Natural England’s recent research (“Managing for species into habitat management), which found that the species: Integrating the needs of England’s priority most efficient and effective way to deliver butterfly species into habitat management”) identified that many conservation was usually by appropriate incorporation species of butterfly can have their conservation needs into habitat-based work. met by ensuring their requirements are integrated within Natural England will place increased emphasis on urban and rural habitat management. ensuring that Higher Level Stewardship agri-environment For butterflies on farmland, the Government are agreements with landowners and farmers contain the developing tools and protocols to ensure that land that appropriate management options for butterflies. Natural is managed under the Higher Level Stewardship (HLS) England will also be working closely with the owners agri-environment scheme has the appropriate management and occupiers of sites of special scientific interest, options in place to provide the correct habitat niches for National Nature Reserves and with existing and new butterflies. landscape-scale partnerships, to ensure that the conservation needs of species are incorporated into the conservation In urban areas, the Government are developing tools objectives and habitat management for these areas. for developers and planners to encourage the adoption of management of habitat niches for butterflies and Carbon Emissions other species in the planning of urban green infrastructure.

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate she has made of the conclusions of the United Kingdom she has made of the carbon dioxide emissions from her Butterfly Monitoring Scheme’s report entitled, Final Department in (a) June 2010 and (b) June 2011. Project Report 2011; and if she will make a statement. [66757] [67064] Richard Benyon: It is estimated that from the office estate for June 2010, DEFRA non-weather corrected Richard Benyon: The collection and analysis of butterfly emissions amounted to some 11,034 tonnes carbon data through the UK Butterfly Monitoring Scheme is a dioxide. partnership project involving the Natural Environment Research Council’s Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, DEFRA is still collating and validating its emission Butterfly Conservation, DEFRA and the conservation data for June 2011. agencies across the UK. DEFRA recently published the Between 14 May 2010 and 13 May 2011, DEFRA final report from the latest phase of funding. The report delivered a reduction of 11.6% in carbon dioxide emissions concludes that while the numbers of most widespread from its office estate. Under the Green Government butterfly species are comparatively stable, almost half Commitments, it is now committed to deliver a 25% of the more specialised butterflies (those species associated reduction in green house gases by 2014-15. with more natural habitats) are declining. Despite this, agri-environment schemes are having a positive effect Carbon Emissions: Landfill and there are some notable signs of recovery for some of these more specialist species, such as the Marsh Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Fritillary and the reintroduced Large Blue. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she We will continue to build on these successful cases, plans to take to reduce emissions of methane from drawing on their example of successful partnership landfill. [66434] working with Butterfly Conservation and others in the voluntary sector, to design or deliver targeted conservation Richard Benyon: The Review of Waste Policy in England, action. published in June, sets out a number of actions targeting all levels of the waste hierarchy to reduce the amount of Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for biodegradable material going to landfill. This can be Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment done by preventing the waste arising in the first place, she has made of the possible effects of the reduction in or diverting waste away from landfill into recycling or the budget of Natural England on butterfly (a) monitoring recovery operations. Measures include continued increases schemes and (b) conservation projects; and if she will in landfill tax, and a commitment to consult on the make a statement. [67065] restriction of wood waste going to landfill. The Government will also give further consideration to other landfill Richard Benyon: The monitoring of butterfly populations restrictions. remains an important part of Natural England’s work, Additionally, we plan a number of steps to increase with its partners, to develop a more integrated monitoring the capture of methane emitted from landfill sites. This programme across a range of species. Natural England work is being carried out together with the Environment is contributing £15,000 this financial year towards a Agency and industry. It includes building the evidence UK integrated monitoring project for butterflies and a base for how much and where methane generation is further £40,000 to Butterfly Conservation for data occurring in landfill, continuing to promote best landfill management to support UK biodiversity commitments. gas management practice by operators to meet obligations 1155W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1156W under the EU landfill directive, and seeking opportunities Richard Benyon: DEFRA officials are in regular contact to promote new technologies that could capture even with the Crown Estate and officials of the Welsh Assembly smaller quantities of methane than is currently possible. Government about the operation of marine licensing, including the licensing of the extraction of marine sand Carbon Emissions: Waste and gravel, the most recent being March and this month respectively. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to take to reduce emissions from the incineration Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance of wastes without energy recovery. [66433] her Department issues on measures to protect sand beaches from excessive erosion attributable to sand Richard Benyon: All incineration plants are obliged dredging. [67126] to meet the stringent emission requirements of the Waste Incineration Directive (2000/76/EC). DEFRA Richard Benyon: The UK Marine Policy Statement, has no plans to impose additional restrictions beyond adopted in March, provides the policy objectives and those already required by the directive and, for those framework for the development of marine plans, and with an incineration capacity exceeding three tonnes sets out the issues for consideration in all decisions per hour, the Integrated Pollution Prevention and Control capable of affecting the marine area. In relation to Directive (2008/1/EC). aggregates, marine plan authorities should contribute to the overarching Government objective of securing an Cattle: Transport adequate and continuing supply to the UK market and should base their decisions on sustainability criteria. A Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for marine licence or other regulatory approval to dredge Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the (a) should only be issued if the decision maker is content origin and (b) destination was of each consignment of that the proposed dredging is environmentally acceptable. calves shipped from Ramsgate on 16 June 2011; how Physical impacts from marine aggregate dredging are many consignments had journeys exceeding 18 hours; tightly regulated to ensure that only localised impacts and in respect of how many of the consignments with occur, and are primarily limited to changes in local journeys exceeding 18 hours the animals were unloaded bathymetry and water depth within dredged areas. Although and rested in accordance with Council Regulation concerns are often expressed that aggregate extraction (EC) No 1/2005 on the protection of animals during leads to coastal erosion, the licensing process excludes transport. [62132] dredging activities from areas where this could occur. All evidence submitted for consideration as part of the Mr Paice: On 16 June, three consignments of calves licensing process is technically scrutinised on behalf of were exported from Ramsgate to destinations in France. the decision maker. These consignments originated from Wales, the north, and south-west of England. There is an extensive evidence base on the effects of marine aggregates dredging developed under the Marine Each consignment was accompanied by a journey log Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund. approved by Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency (AHVLA). To be approved, each journey, as described, would need to meet the rules on journey Community Composting times and rest periods laid down in Council Regulation (EC) No. 1/2005. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for There is an obligation under this legislation for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy transporters to return the completed journey log following is on community composting; and what plans she has completion of the journey so that the actual journey to expand its takeup. [66428] details can be checked against those same details in the original approved journey log. AHVLA will investigate Richard Benyon: Our recent review of waste policy further if there are deviations, suggesting a possible reaffirmed our commitment to encouraging community infringement of the legislation. If subsequent investigations composting; we think it can be good for the local confirm that this is the case, AHVLA will take the environment, local communities and the economy. The necessary proportionate enforcement action against the Government’s role is not to make the decisions about transporter. what are the best waste management options in particular Transporters must return journey logs to the AHVLA circumstances: that is for local communities, but we Welfare in Transport team within one month of the provide a range of support to help inform those decisions. completion of each journey. In this particular case, as To that end, we support WRAP’s work in developing the deadline has now passed and the journey logs have markets for compost and recognise the role of the yet to be returned, AHVLA is pursuing this matter with British Standard BSI PAS 100 in giving confidence that the transporter. the compost produced is safe, reliable and high quality. We support community composting by providing Coastal Areas: Environment Protection exemptions from the need for an environmental permit for smaller-scale composting operations that pose little Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for risk to human health and the environment. We have Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions also commissioned research into the health risks from she has had with (a) the Crown Estate and (b) Welsh bio-aerosols generated during composting. This will Ministers on the protection of sand beaches from help reduce uncertainties about the level of risk posed erosion attributable to sand dredging. [67125] by bio-aerosols and odours at composting sites and 1157W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1158W ensure regulatory controls are applied proportionately. Crops: Research We have also established a framework for excepting certain small-scale and community composting projects Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, from the need to comply with the requirements of the Food and Rural Affairs what the policy of her Department Animal By-Products Regulations where there is clearly is on the retention of regional research hubs for groupings no risk to public or animal health. of crops. [64813] Countryside Richard Benyon: DEFRA does not fund regional research hubs for groupings of crops. There are no Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, plans to establish such hubs. Crop research is undertaken Food and Rural Affairs what support her Department within research institutes and university departments plans to provide to national countryside week in each of across the UK. the next four financial years. [66363] Departmental Air Travel Richard Benyon: National countryside week was launched by the Prince’s Countryside Fund on 11 July. The fund John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for is intended to improve the sustainability of British Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on what occasions farming and rural communities; reconnect consumers she has flown on official business (a) by budget airline with countryside issues; and support farming and rural and (b) in economy class in the last 12 months. [67916] crisis charities. The fund works by participating companies making a donation and providing in-kind support; as Richard Benyon: During the last 12 months the Secretary the fund works with businesses rather than Government, of State has made the following journeys by budget DEFRA cannot provide direct support to the fund, airline or in economy class on official departmental although it supports its overall aims. business.

Date Journey Airline Purpose

2010 19 September Single: London to Brussels Brussels Airlines Informal Agriculture Council 25 September Single: Amsterdam to Heathrow British Airways Return to London from UN General Assembly 14-15 October Return: London to Luxembourg Lux Air Environment Council 31 October Single: Nagoya to Shanghai China Eastern Shanghai Expo

2011 21-22 January Return: London to Berlin British Airways Berlin Green Week 20-21 February Return: Birmingham to Brussels Brussels Air Agriculture Council 13-15 March Return: Birmingham to Brussels Brussels Air Environment Council 24-26 March Return: London to Budapest Swiss International Informal Environment Council 29-31 May Return: Birmingham to Budapest Swiss International Informal Ag meeting 21-22 June Return: Birmingham to Luxembourg Lux Air Environment Council 10-11 July Return: Birmingham to Gdansk Lufthansa (out) Environment Council Wizz Air (return)1 1Budget airline

Departmental Allowances 1 April 2011; and how many of those invoices were not paid within the period of time specified in the Government’s Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Fair Payment guidance. [55868] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what expenses were claimed by (a) paid and (b) unpaid special advisers Richard Benyon: The Government’s Fair Payment working in her Department in the last 12 months. guidance relates to payments to construction suppliers [62066] and DEFRA and its Executive agencies do not record centrally whether a supplier is a Tier 1 construction Richard Benyon: Over the last 12 months, the supplier. Department’s special advisers claimed £88.29 in expenses for reimbursement of mileage accumulated during To identify all payments for construction that fall departmental business. The Department has no unpaid within the Government’s Fair Payment guidance for the special advisers. core Department and its Executive agencies would incur disproportionate cost. Departmental Billing Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many invoices Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many invoices received by her Department have been paid (a) on time her Department received in respect of goods or services and (b) late in each month since May 2010; and what supplied by tier 1 suppliers between 1 May 2010 and the monetary value is of the invoices paid late. [62490] 1159W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1160W

Richard Benyon: Invoices received from suppliers and Rural Payments Agency paid on time and late in the period May 2010 to May Invoices 2011 for the Department and executive agencies are as paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage laid out in the following tables. Period time paid late late (£) paid late Core Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Invoices May 148 0 Unavailable 0 paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage 2011 Period time paid late late (£) paid late Note: May 4,020 34 61,508 0.85 Based on all valid supplier invoices and the payment target is 80% 2010 within five days. Veterinary Medicines Directorate June 3,726 5 5,557 0.13 2010 Invoices paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage Jul 2010 3,524 7 53,598 0.20 Period time paid late late (£) paid late August 3,431 6 71,176 0.17 May 83 8 21,268.78 8.79 2010 2010 September 3,239 4 18,642 0.12 June 95 10 28,070.97 9.52 2010 2010 October 3,647 23 113,975 0.63 July 69 13 131,624.00 15.85 2010 2010 November 3,042 3 28,800 0.10 August 53 21 29,766.20 28.38 2010 2010 September 65 11 29,281.15 14.47 December 2,839 4 63,645 0.14. 2010 2010 October 53 18 490,282.09 25.35 January 2,871 4 15,357 0.14 2010 2011 November .87 8 16,883.30 8.42 February 3,279 9 48,641 0.27 2010 2011 December 73 4 10,737.29 5.19 March 3,765 7 65,180 0.19 2010 2011 January 84 5 235,726.79 5.62 2011 April 2,641 14 184,780 0.53 2011 February 71 7 13,606.44 8.97 2011 May 2,668 5 17,797 0.19 March 119 13 17,626.43 9.85 2011 2011 Note: April 81 2 232,395.79 2.41 Includes all invoices received including those received from the DEFRA 2011 network and OGDs. Paid late based on: May 80 15 71,103.86 15.79 when paid outside of supplier terms as recorded; 2011 or where payment did not meet prompt payment initiatives for Note: immediate term suppliers—this was five days with effect from Since 1 May 2010, the VMD have worked to the target of paying 80% 1 October 2011 and 10 days prior to that date. of undisputed supplier invoices within five working days. All invoices Rural Payments Agency in the “paid late” column were paid after five working days and Invoices include invoices that may have been disputed for some time before paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage payment. Period time paid late late (£) paid late CEFAS May 247 11 Unavailable 7.14 Invoices 2010 paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage Period time paid late late (£) paid late June 225 2 Unavailable 0.88 2010 May 635 518 1,083,246 44.93 July 2010 220 3 Unavailable 1.35 2010 August 247 0 Unavailable 0 June 650 307 427,700 32.08 2010 2010 September 208 2 Unavailable 0.95 July 849 152 516,108 15.18 2010 2010 October 207 1 Unavailable 0.48 August 624 102 639,566 14.05 2010 2010 November 146 1 Unavailable 0.68 September 710 91 588,463 11.36 2010 2010 December 139 4 Unavailable 2.11 October 472 376 3,096,115 44.34 2010 2010 January 219 1 Unavailable 0.45 November 672 225 561,075 25.08 2011 2010 February 153 3 Unavailable 1.92 December 253 177 500,726 41.16 2011 2010 March 216 1 Unavailable 0.46 January 560 406 1,204,617 42.03 2011 2011 April 148 1 Unavailable 0.67 February 674 181 1,400,970 21.17 2011 2011 1161W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1162W

CEFAS Veterinary Laboratories Agency Invoices Invoices paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage Period time paid late late (£) paid late Period time paid late late (£) paid late

March 832 335 1,513,212 28.71 October 1,696 523 846,871 23.57 2011 2010 November 1,741 458 655,831 20.83 April 256 293 1,711,320 53.37 2010 2011 December 1,400 511 678,357 26.74 May 324 399 575,892 55.19 2010 2011 January 1,352 657 1,210,229 32.70 Notes: 2011 1. The figures provided exclude any payments made to staff. Includes February 1,693 540 4,646,573 24.18 all invoices received including those received from the DEFRA network 2011 and OGDs. 2. Paid late is defined as where payment did not meet prompt payment March 2,356 620 4,657,810 20.83 initiatives for immediate terms. This was five days with effect from 2011 1 October 2010 and 10 days prior to that date. April 1,050 688 1,338,250 39.59 3. In April 2010 CEFAS went live with a new finance system which 2011 impacted routine payment cycles. May 1,186 553 754,512 31.80 Animal Health 2011 Invoices Note: paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage VLA target was 10 days at the start of the year, but this was then Period time paid late late (£) paid late changed to five days from October. System changes were suspended with the implementation of the move of financial systems to the May 137 744 1,941,414 84 DEFRA Network Shared Services. 2010 FERA June 253 897 2,907,024 78 Invoices 2010 paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage July 450 381 1,054,239 45.8 Period time paid late late (£) paid late 2010 May 1,508 .541 Unavailable 26.40 August 464 387 963,308 45.5 2010 2010 June 1,594 681 Unavailable 29.93 September 246 385 1,169,511 61.01 2010 2010 July 1,869 461 Unavailable 19.79 October 796 1,066 1,519,092 57.3 2010 2010 August 1,499 411 Unavailable 21.52 November 593 1 2,467 0.17 2010 2010 September 1,599 432 Unavailable 21.27 December 467 0 0 0.00 2010 2010 October 1,687 430 Unavailable 20.31 January 490 0 0 0.00 2010 2011 November 1,640 530 Unavailable 24.42 February 250 6 18,519 1.1 2010 2011 December 1,610 415 Unavailable 20.49 March 682 17 46,592 2.43 2010 2011 January 1,178 546 Unavailable 31.67 April 479 20 12,462 4.0 2011 2011 February 1,894 356 Unavailable 15.82. May 509 5 36,896 1.0 2011 2011 Notes: March 1,898 864 Unavailable 31.28 2011 1. Based on the Government’s five day prompt payment performance guidance and includes all supplier invoices. Excludes all payments to April 1,500 568 Unavailable 27.47 staff and other bodies. Target is 80% paid on time. 2011 2. System issues prevented the implementation of the five day policy May 1,120 849 Unavailable 43.12 until November 2010. However, in the period May 2010 to October 2011 2010, payment performance was 99.8% or better, based on meeting Note: contractual supplier terms. FERA is unable to separate supplier invoices/payments from other Veterinary Laboratories Agency invoices/payments. Paid late is defined where payment did not meet Invoices prompt payment initiatives for immediate terms. This was five days paid on Invoices Value paid Percentage with effect from 1 October 2010 and 10 days prior to that date. Period time paid late late (£) paid late

May 1,912 211 417,374 9.94 2010 June 2,250 326 561,866 12.66 Departmental Carbon Emissions 2010 July 2,353 225 239,705 8.73 2010 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State August 2,168 221 175,096 9.25 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she 2010 has issued any guidance on the generation of low- September 1,972 147 291,598 6.94 carbon energy on estates owned by her Department. 2010 [65457] 1163W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1164W

Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, Marine Management Organisation, Natural England) Food and Rural Affairs, the right hon. Member for during the period 1 July 2010 to 30 June 2011. Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has not issued any guidance on the generation of low-carbon energy on estates Description Quantity owned by her Department. Blackberry 8 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Laptop computer 25 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to Desktop computer 3 the answer of 11 July 2011, Official Report, column Projector 3 10W, on departmental carbon emissions, whether the sources of low-carbon energy generation on its estate Individual replacement costs are not recorded centrally, but all the items listed above would each have had an were manufactured in the UK. [67931] estimated value of £100 or over at the time of loss. Richard Benyon: EU legislation dictates that all major All reported incidents are investigated and if theft is public sector procurement requirements are advertised suspected the matter is reported to the police. Staff are in the Official Journal of the European Union (OJEU) advised to report losses of equipment while out of the and tenders from all EU countries must be considered. office to the police directly as well as to their Security This ruling limits DEFRA’s ability to procure directly Team. from the UK, but the Department can confirm that it has purchased low carbon generation technologies from Departmental Official Hospitality the following UK companies: Proven Wind Turbines (Scotland); Quiet Revolution Wind Turbines (Wales); Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for Solar Century Solar Voltaic Panels (England); Talbots Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her Biomass Boilers (England). Department has spent on hospitality for staff since Departmental Consultants May 2010. [67546] Richard Benyon [holding answer 19 July 2011]: The Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for departmental policy, including for executive agencies, is Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her not to provide any hospitality for staff. This includes Department spent on external consultants as part of refreshments at staff meetings or staff working lunches. the recent consultation on bovine tuberculosis. [65040] It is possible that refreshments may be provided exceptionally for meetings with external visitors, but to Mr Paice: No money was spent on external consultants identify these would incur disproportionate cost. as part of the recent consultation on bovine tuberculosis. All expenditure is incurred in accordance with the Departmental Legal Opinion principles of Managing Public Money and the Treasury handbook on Regularity and Propriety. Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Departmental Photographs answer of 7 June 2011, Official Report, column 63W, on departmental legal opinion, how many prosecutions Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for were brought as a result of the work of her Department’s Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her legal team in the last five years; and how many convictions Department has spent on Ministerial (a) photoshoots arose from such prosecutions. [61187] and (b) videos since May 2010. [67545]

Richard Benyon: The number of prosecutions brought Richard Benyon: The information is as follows: as a result of the work of the Department’s legal team (a) Since May 2010 DEFRA has incurred one cost in the last four years (2007-08 to 2010-11) is 151. The of £1,350 which arose from the need for new ministerial total number of convictions arising from these prosecutions photographs following the general election. is 93. (b) Since May 2010, in-house resources have been The answer is for the last four years rather than five used to produce ministerial videos. because the information for 2006-07 is not readily available and the cost to obtain it would be disproportionate. Departmental Procurement Departmental Lost Property Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what provisions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what property in respect of behavioural standards have been included has been (a) lost and (b) stolen from her Department in procurement contracts issued by her Department in the last 12 months; and what the cost of replacement since May 2010. [61677] was. [66569] Richard Benyon: The Department has followed OGC Richard Benyon: Official items lost or stolen are all guidelines when drawing up new contracts since May recorded as ‘losses’. The following table shows losses 2010. Behavioural standards are included in clauses reported in DEFRA and reporting network bodies covering prevention of corruption, prevention of fraud, (Animal Health, Veterinary Laboratories Agency, discrimination, environmental requirements, health and Commission for Rural Communities, Environment Agency, safety, data protection, confidentiality and security. In 1165W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1166W addition, Model Terms and Conditions for Contracts officials of her Department have declined a request for Services contain clauses covering conflict of interest a meeting from an hon. Member of each political party. and vetting procedures. [67190]

Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: We do not currently keep data on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion invitations to meetings that have been declined and do of procurement contracts offered by her Department not plan to do so in the future. have been advertised on the Contracts Finder website since the website’s inception. [67240] Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: The Department and its executive Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many agencies and non-departmental public bodies follow meetings officials of her Department have had with the the Transparency guidance issued by HM Treasury and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on the Cabinet Office on the publication of opportunities, Government’s employment law review since May 2011. tenders and contracts awarded over £10,000 in value on [67345] the Contract Finder website. Departmental performance can be seen in the published Richard Benyon: This Department is fully engaged in document at: the review of employment-related law being co-ordinated http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/sites/default/files/resources/ by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. transparency-procurement-contracting-departmental- The Department will also be looking at ideas that progress.pdf emerge from the Red Tape Challenge. Relevant Ministers and officials are in contact with BIS on a regular basis Departmental Regulation in taking forward the review, for example, in relation to the Agricultural Wages Board workstream. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what process her Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Department follows for the production of regulatory Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on how many guidance; and how many officials of her Department occasions a request for a meeting by an hon. Member of were involved in the production of such guidance on each political party was refused by (a) a Minister in her the last date for which figures are available. [67206] Department directly and (b) her Department on behalf of a Minister in November 2010. [67578] Mr Paice: DEFRA is committed to following the Better Regulation Executive’s Code of Practice on Guidance Richard Benyon: I refer the hon. Member to the on Regulation. answer I gave him on 18 July 2011, Official Report, Guidance is produced by policy teams across the column 614W. Department, working with stakeholders and regulators. This forms an integral part of the normal processes for Departmental Temporary Employment developing policy and is not a separate task. It is not possible therefore to identify how many officials are involved in its production. Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many staff Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for in her Department have been employed on contracts of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) three to six months, (b) one to three months and procurement contracts her Department has awarded to (c) less than one month who have previously worked small businesses since May 2010. [67239] for the Department on a permanent contract in the last 12 months. [65357] Richard Benyon: The central records of the Department and its Executive agencies do not yet hold accurate Richard Benyon [holding answer 11 July 2011]: The information of the SME status of all its suppliers. We Department and its executive agencies have not employed plan to have this information by the end of the year and any individual, in the last 12 months, on a contract of I will place it in the House of Commons Library at that (a) three to six months, (b) one to three months or (c) stage. less than one month, who has previously worked for the Department on a permanent contract. Departmental Responsibilities Departmental Training Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many meetings she has had with hon. Members of each political party Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for since May 2010. [67167] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her Department has spent on training for Ministers since Richard Benyon: The information requested is not May 2010; and what the purpose was of such training. held by the Department. [67544]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon [holding answer 19 July 2011]: The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will consider Department has not spent anything on ministerial training keeping data on the number of times (a) she and (b) since May 2010. 1167W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1168W

Dogs: Animal Welfare Environment Agency: Manpower

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether her Department Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many staff has any plans to bring forward proposals for the abolition the Environment Agency employs in England and of legislative exemptions on conditions of breeding, Wales. [64211] keeping and euthanising of beagles; [66369] (2) what plans her Department has to improve Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency employs standards of animal welfare at beagle farms in the next 11,654 staff in England and Wales, including employment four financial years; [66374] agency personnel and contractors. This compares to 13,766 members of staff (including employment agency (3) what her Department’s policy is on standards of personnel and contractors) employed during the fourth animal welfare at beagle farms; [66375] quarter of 2009-10. (4) whether her Department has any plans to amend regulations on conditions of animal welfare among EU Grants and Loans commercially-bred beagles. [66380]

Mr Paice: The standards that apply in establishments Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for where animals are being bred for the purpose of scientific Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent experimentation are the responsibility of the Home discussions her Department has had on the simplification Office, not DEFRA. There are no plans for DEFRA to of the application process for LEADER funding. take responsibility for these establishments. [67280] Section 58 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 (AWA) Mr Paice: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave lays down that breeding establishments for animals to on 20 July 2011, Official Report, column 1081W. be used in experimentation are specifically exempted from the AWA. Flooding: Reading West

Eggs: Imports Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, assessment the Environment Agency has made of the Food and Rural Affairs if she will bring forward proposals risk of flooding in Reading West constituency arising to protect egg producers from adverse effects arising from increased surface water. [66493] from the import of (a) food products manufactured from shell eggs produced in systems in other EU member Richard Benyon: Reading borough council is the lead states which do not comply with EU directives and (b) local flood authority and is responsible for surface egg products manufactured from eggs produced in water flooding in the Reading West constituency. The conventional cage production systems outside the EU. Environment Agency continues to be responsible for [66199] managing river flooding from the main rivers. In 2010 the Environment Agency published a national Mr Paice [holding answer 14 July 2011]: The map that identifies areas at risk from Surface Water Government are totally committed to the 2012 deadline Flooding. The EA has also been working in partnership to have phased out the keeping of laying hens in with Reading borough council on a surface water conventional cages in the UK. From 1 January 2012, it management plan. This plan will improve understanding will therefore be illegal to keep laying hens in conventional of local sources of flooding (including surface water) cages and on that basis, marketing such eggs as Class A across Reading and will investigate potential options to within the UK will be against the law. reduce existing and future risk. The work will be completed this year. We are not able unilaterally to prevent egg products produced from eggs in conventional cages being imported The EA has facilitated Reading borough council from Third Countries. World Trade Organisation rules delivering a scheme to reduce surface water flooding by do not allow members to ban imports on the grounds of awarding £100,000 of funding on behalf of DEFRA. the welfare standards applied in third countries. The scheme was completed in June of this year, reducing risk in the area around Kingsley Close. We have, however, been at the forefront of efforts to convince the Commission that simply relying on infraction proceedings against non-compliant member states will Food: Oils not be enough to deal with the negative impact that non-compliance would cause and that additional measures Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for would need to be put in place to prevent market disturbance Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her and to protect compliant producers. We will continue to Department is taking to encourage the reuse of keep up the pressure on the Commission to act and act cooking oil used in the food industry. [67658] quickly. We are also in the process of drawing up an enforcement Richard Benyon: In line with our vision of a ‘zero strategy which we will be discussing with industry waste economy’, we want to increase the amount of representatives and retailers and how we can best work waste cooking oils that can be recycled into other useful together to take things forward. products where this is safe, legal and appropriate. 1169W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1170W

We sponsored development by the Environment Agency The latter figures do not take into account a possible demand of a ‘Quality Protocol’ for production and use of biodiesel response, though this is likely to be relatively small. derived from waste cooking oil and rendered animal fat. Demonstrating compliance with this Protocol shows a Glass: Recycling supplier/processor has reprocessed waste oils/fats into a quality product. The EA provides information on recyclers Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for that have demonstrated compliance with the protocol. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she There is an exemption from the need for an environmental has to maximise the rate of recycling into glass of glass permit for the physical treatment of waste edible oil and collected directly from households. [67665] fat to produce biodiesel. Richard Benyon [holding answer 19 July 2011]: In the As part of our better regulation agenda, and following Review of Waste Policy in England, published in June, further consultation, it is proposed to extend the scope the Government stated their intention to consult on of the exemption to also allow for the small-scale chemical amending the Producer Responsibility Obligations treatment of up to 250 litres in addition to the 5,000 (Packaging Waste) Regulations 2007 (as amended) to litre limit for physical treatment. This will be introduced establish a sub-target for recycling glass back into glass. at the next suitable opportunity to amend the Environmental Permitting Regulations 2010. Hill Farming In the Waste Review, the Government announced the development of a responsibility deal with the hospitality Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, and food service sector to tackle food and packaging Food and Rural Affairs what recent estimate she has waste. We will work with businesses and trade organisations made of the average annual income of hill farmers in to examine the scope for including the reuse of cooking England. [67855] oil as a part of this agreement. Mr Paice: The majority of hill farmers in England Food: Procurement are classified as those grazing livestock in the Less Favoured Area (LFA). The most recent data from the Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Farm Business Survey were published in October 2010 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the and indicate that average Farm Business Income for this written statement of 16 June 2011, Official Report, farm type was £22,000 for 2009-10. Initial forecasts for columns 77-78WS, on Food and Catering Services 2010-11, published in January 2011, suggest this figure (Government Buying Standards), what estimate her is likely to have fallen to £14,500 due to higher input Department has made of the costs of implementing prices and a lower output from beef enterprises. Actual and maintaining its policy that fish will be procured survey results for 2010-11 will be published on 27 October from certifiably sustainable sources from September 2011. 2011. [62198] Hill Farming: Finance Richard Benyon: Overfishing is the most widespread and significant human pressure on marine wildlife and Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for habitats. Many fish stocks are overexploited globally, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many former with the FAO reporting in 2010 that 32% of stocks are hill farm allowance applicants are now participating in overexploited, depleted or recovering. A further 53% of uplands entry level stewardship; and how many are in stocks are fully exploited, with the rest under or moderately receipt of the uplands transitional payment. [62674] exploited. Mr Paice: There were 7,009 eligible claims for the Within the North East Atlantic (in 2011), 63% of Hill Farm Allowance (HFA) 2010. An initial analysis of stocks are overexploited, and 37% are at or below their uptake up to mid-January 2011 shows that of these maximum sustainable yield. claims 2,503 were receiving Uplands Entry Level It is therefore very important that we lead by example Stewardship (Uplands ELS) and 2,099 were receiving in procuring sustainable fish and I believe that a 100% Uplands Transitional Payment (UTP). The analysis will target is fully achievable. be published this week on DEFRA’s website. We have estimated that around 60% of fish procured A further analysis will be undertaken once a full by central Government is demonstrably sustainable. To year’s Uplands ELS uptake data is available in July. increase this to 100%, based upon an assumed 5% price This will give a fuller picture of how former HFA premium for sustainably-sourced fish, the cost of claimants are participating in either UTP or Uplands implementing and maintaining this criteria is estimated ELS. It is expected that this will show a further increase to be: in the proportion of HFA 2010 recipients with a live Approximately £227,000 per annum where the food procured Uplands ELS agreement; between mid-January and is taxpayer-funded (prisons, MOD operational and so on); mid-June the number of live Uplands ELS agreements Approximately £95,000 per annum where the food procured is increased by 29% to 4,590. customer-funded (central Government Department staff restaurants). Houseboats Two caveats apply here: These are undiscounted costs. A discount rate of 3.5% per John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for annum is usually used in the appraisal of Government policy, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the policy so as to allow an accurate comparison of costs and benefits objectives in respect of boat dwellers are of the which occur in different years; Government’s proposed amendment to schedule 5 of 1171W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1172W the Public Bodies Bill in respect of British Waterways; The Government have made tackling illegal trafficking and what powers British Waterways (a) has and (b) is in wildlife a priority and this year we are providing proposed to have in respect of summary eviction. £30,000 towards a CITES programme which monitors [66689] the illegal killing of elephants (MIKE). We are also providing £35,000 towards the running of the international Richard Benyon: There is no proposed amendment to Union for Conservation of Nature’s African Elephant Schedule 5 of the Public Bodies Bill. However, an Specialist Group which works closely with African states amendment was tabled during the passage of the Bill in to protect elephant populations. We will also provide the House of Lords, and passed (forming Note 1 of £90,000 to an Interpol project to help African states Schedule 5 to the Bill). The purpose of that amendment improve their enforcement capacity and elephant (and was not to seek the enhancement of any of the British rhino) protection. Waterways Board’s existing powers but to enable the We are currently funding three Darwin Initiative proposed New Waterways Charity to receive the British projects contributing to elephant conservation totalling Waterways Board’s existing important statutory and approximately £495,000 over three years, and another regulatory functions. If the amendment had not been project worth £240,000, that will fund improvements to made, other provisions in the Bill would unintentionally the ETIS database which monitors all illegal seizures of have prevented that from happening. ivory around the world. In addition, the UK has funded Under section 8 of the British Waterways Act 1983, wider international projects that will protect the habitats sunk, stranded or abandoned vessels or vessels moored of forest-dwelling elephants by combating deforestation without lawful authority on the waterways may only be and illegal logging (for example, in the Congo Basin removed by the British Waterways Board after due and South East Asia). process including giving any required notice and periods The UK also contributes to the EU budget which in of grace. Wherever a vessel is identified as being someone’s turn provides significant funding to CITES activities on home, British Waterways does not exercise its powers elephant issues. This work includes a meeting in November under section 8 without having taken the matter to the 2010 that brought together African countries to discuss County Court and obtained a declaration from the elephant conservation, and the MIKE programme in Court that the removal is lawful. These long-held powers Africa (¤10 million over the last five years), as well as operate in the interests of the waterways and their users. several wider projects on forest conservation. The Government does not intend to amend or expand them when they are transferred to the proposed New Waterways Charity. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Ivory assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for in protecting elephants. [67022] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is taking (a) through international organisations and (b) Richard Benyon: In its role as the UK management at EU level to implement the commitment in the authority for the convention on international trade in coalition agreement to press for a ban on ivory sales. endangered species (CITES), DEFRA works with other [67020] CITES parties, the CITES secretariat and non- governmental organisations, particularly through our Richard Benyon: The UK is working with EU partners, position on the CITES Standing Committee, to review other countries and non-governmental organisations, the convention’s delivery of its purpose and resolutions to develop a robust and highly precautionary line to and decisions agreed by the parties. There is a raft of take in discussions on the development of that decision- strong resolutions and decisions calling for action on making mechanism. This will be one of the key areas of elephants, and delivery of these is reviewed at annual discussion at the forthcoming CITES Standing Committee Standing Committee meetings as well as at triennial meeting, which takes place next month in Geneva. conferences of the parties. The UK takes a keen interest The global ban on the international commercial sale in this area and will continue to do so at the forthcoming of ivory, agreed by parties to the convention on international Standing Committee in August. trade in endangered species (CITES) in 1989, remains in place. Landfill Nevertheless, at the 14th CITES conference of the parties in 2007, it was agreed that a decision-making Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for mechanism for any future sales would be developed Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will publish by 2013. on her Department’s website a summary of responses to the consultation on the introduction of restrictions Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for on the landfilling of certain wastes. [66890] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what funding the UK provides (a) directly and (b) through the EU for elephant protection in (i) Africa and (ii) Asia. [67021] Richard Benyon: We published the “Summary of responses to the consultation on the introduction of Richard Benyon: DEFRA supports elephant protection restrictions on the landfilling of certain wastes (18 March by funding conservation projects in Africa and Asia - 10 June 2010)” on our website in September 2010. directly, via the Darwin Initiative, and through trade However, consultations and their associated documents controls applied under the Convention on international are only held on the DEFRA website for a year after the trade in endangered species (CITES). consultation document is first published. The consultation 1173W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1174W paper and related materials, including the associated Richard Benyon: The annual value of current contracts summary of responses, remain on the National Archives may vary from year to year. To collect this annual value website. data for the core department and its executive agencies for each current contract and to identify each master Materials category to which the contract relates would incur disproportionate cost. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department and its executive agencies and non Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment departmental public bodies follow the transparency she made of the resource risks to businesses from the guidance issued by HM Treasury and Cabinet Office on security of supply of (a) lithium, (b) tin, (c) lead, (d) the publication of opportunities, tenders and contracts copper, (e) rare earth metals, (f) phosphorus, (g) awarded over £10,000 in value on the Contract Finder cobalt metals and (h) indium. [66432] website. Mr Paice: The eight resources identified were assessed as part of a DEFRA research report: ‘Review of the Future Resource Risks faced by UK Business and an Recycling Assessment of Future Viability’, published in December 2010, available on the DEFRA website. Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA has committed to publish an action plan on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many recycling resource security to assist businesses with strategic risk centres there have been in each of the last 10 years; and management and the recovery of critical resources. The how many such centres have closed since May 2010. research findings are feeding into the development of [65711] the action plan. Richard Benyon: The following table provides a Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 breakdown of the total number of recycling centres in England since 2005-06. The information is drawn Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for from data provided by local authorities to DEFRA’s Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans WasteDataFlow system which does not hold earlier to (a) review and (b) revise the list of species published figures. under section 41 of the Natural Environment and Rural www.wastedataflow.org Communities Act 2006. [66726] The collation of WasteDataFlow data for the 2010-11 Richard Benyon: There are 943 species of principal financial year has not yet been completed. Although importance included on the section 41 list which was there has been no formal research into site closures, last updated in August 2010. We currently have no plans decreases in the number of sites are likely to reflect to review or revise the list. increases in kerbside recycling collections reducing demand for sites, and also local priorities for resource allocation. Primates: Pets Any specific reason would be a matter for individual authorities, and inquiries should be directed to them. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department does not hold information about Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate the number of recycling centres that have closed since she has made of the number of primates kept as pets in May 2010. England. [66277] Recycling centres Mr Paice: Estimates of the numbers of primates kept by private ownership in England vary considerably. The 2005-06 808 working group that drafted the Code of Practice on the 2006-07 782 Welfare of Privately Kept Non-Human Primates estimated 2007-08 744 the number to be between 900 and 1,600, and used the 2008-09 739 mid-range figure of 1,200 in calculations (held by an 2009-10 756 estimated 300 private owners, i.e. not zoos or rescue centres). During consultation on the code, several respondents provided alternative higher estimates based on some Reservoirs Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 licences issued and sales figures of primates. From the consultation’s summary, most respondents estimated that there were between Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, 1,500 and 7,500. We acknowledge that numbers of Food and Rural Affairs what applications for the primates in private hands is difficult to estimate, but we construction of reservoirs in (a) England, (b) Wales have used the figure of 1,200 to 5,000 to demonstrate and (c) Scotland are pending where the proposed nation the sort of costs owners might be expected to meet, as a to which the water will be supplied is to be different result of the code. from the source; and if she will make a statement. [67790] Procurement Richard Benyon: I am not aware of any existing or Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for proposed application for the construction of such a Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the annual reservoir in England. Applications to Scottish or Welsh value is of her Department’s current contracts in each planning authorities are matters for those authorities or sector in which contracts are held. [66598] the Scottish or Welsh Governments where appropriate. 1175W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1176W

Rights of Way the Big Society agenda as it will give access where it is needed and meet the needs of all users and interested Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for parties. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Rural Areas she has made of the potential effects on landowners of rights of way over their land. [66849] Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State has not carried discussions she has had with the Department for Business, out any formal assessment of the potential effects on Innovation and Skills on the Government’s Growth landowners of public rights of way over their land. Review in relation to rural communities. [67281] However, an independent Farming Regulation Task Force, chaired by Richard Macdonald, published a Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment report in May on reducing the regulatory burden on Food and Rural Affairs has had recent discussions on landowners and it included various recommendations the Rural Economy Growth Review with the Secretary to DEFRA in relation to public rights of way. The of State for Business Innovation and Skills the right Government will consider the report’s recommendations hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), through carefully, and will provide an initial public response and the course of normal business. Officials from both parliamentary statement this autumn. Departments have also met regularly to advance the Review, including through a cross-Departmental Project Rivers: Chalk Streams Board which met for the first time on 11 July. Rural Communities Policy Unit Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she has for river environment restoration of chalk streams Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many civil (a) nationally and (b) in Hertfordshire. [66494] servants are employed in the Rural Communities Policy Unit; and where they are based. [67283] Richard Benyon: As announced in the Natural Environment White Paper the Government intends to Richard Benyon: The Rural Communities Policy Unit take steps to tackle the legacy of unsustainable abstraction currently has 31 staff and is also able to draw upon more efficiently. Further details will be included in the dedicated support from DEFRA economists and social Water White Paper. researchers. Eighteen of the unit’s staff are based in The chalk streams in Hertfordshire suffer from low London, 10 in Bristol and three in York. flows as a result of over abstraction. These are located on the Rivers Stort, Ash, Rib, Beane and Mimram. Rural Development Programme Through the Environment Agency’s (EA) Restoring Sustainable Abstraction programme it is seeking to Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for improve flows in these rivers and working with Veolia Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Water Central and a number of experts to establish how she has made of the level of demand for funding much water we need in these rivers to support good available through the Rural Development Programme ecological status. for England to support upland farming. [67292] The EA is also undertaking habitat restoration where it has identified opportunities for improvement. For Mr Paice: We continue to monitor uptake of all example, the removal of barriers to fish migration is a agri-environment schemes, including Uplands Entry Level key element of delivering the Water Framework Directive Stewardship (Uplands ELS). Uptake of Uplands ELS and the EA has identified a programme of improvements currently stands at 4,600 agreements or 708,200 hectares over the next three years on the Rivers Beane and Rib. of land in the Severely Disadvantaged Area. To help protect and improve chalk stream habitats In maximising the use of EU funds, and through the the EA works closely with other organisations, including spending review settlement, we have successfully maintained the Hertfordshire and Middlesex Wildlife Trust, which planned levels of spend on agri-environment at above has a chalk stream project officer in place to deliver £400 million per annum. Within this amount, we remain improvements within the catchments. committed to maximising uptake for Uplands ELS and have ensured that funding is available to enable all eligible famers to enter the scheme. Uplands ELS uptake Rivers: Kayakers is currently limited by the area of land that remains in Countryside Stewardship and Environmentally Sensitive Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Area agreements. These will be eligible to renew into Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has Uplands ELS (and also in many cases Higher Level any plans to change river access rights for kayakers. Stewardship) as agreements expire between now and [66485] 2015. We are working with Natural England to maximise such renewals. Richard Benyon: We have no plans to legislate to As announced in the Uplands Policy Review on change the access rights for kayakers and canoeists, and 10 March, the Government are working to develop an remain committed to the use of locally agreed, voluntary, ’uplands theme’ for Rural Development Programme for access agreements as the means of increasing river England (RDPE) delivery for the rest of the programme access for non-powered craft. This fits very well with and will be discussing what this needs to deliver with 1177W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1178W industry representatives. In addition, some priority is potential of earth observation satellite technology in being given to helping those Leader Local Action Groups each associated policy area, both in the context of (LAG) in uplands areas continue to deliver against their GMES and earth observation more widely. This is Local Development Strategies. The LAG and DEFRA supplemented by a specialist forum which is co-chaired RDPE delivery team will discuss and agree how best to by JNCC and DEFRA. deliver this support at the local level, based on demand and performance criteria. Sewage: Waste Disposal Rural Development Programme: Yorkshire and the Humber Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what criteria she plans to use to Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for determine whether a septic tank qualifies for an exemption Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much funding from a permit to discharge under the Environmental is available to the Yorkshire and the Humber region Permitting Programme Second Phase regulations. under the Rural Development Programme for England. [66241] [67290]

Mr Paice: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave Richard Benyon: Unless it is located close to sensitive him on 20 July 2011, Official Report, columns 1083-84W. environmental sites, including drinking water abstraction boreholes, only a septic tank discharging two cubic Satellites: Technology metres per day or less to groundwater need to be registered. If the tank is discharging more than two cubic meters per day, it would require a permit. Also, if it is located Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for close to a sensitive site then a permit is required. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to what extent Environment Agency considers applications on a case her Department uses earth observation satellite technology by case basis to ensure there will be no adverse in developing policy on (a) marine and agricultural environmental impact guidance for on the requirements monitoring, (b) resource management, (c) urban of the regulations for sewage discharges from septic plannings, (d) biodiversity and nature conservation tanks can be found on the Environment Agency website. and (e) infectious disease risk management; and what assessment she has made of the effectiveness of earth observation satellite technology in each policy area. Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for [66152] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the penalty is for failure to register with the Environment Agency Richard Benyon: My Department uses Earth Observation the discharge of sewage effluent from a septic tank (EO) across a number of policy areas and also operationally under the Environmental Permitting Programme within some arm’s length bodies. Second Phase regulations. [66242] (a) In the marine and agricultural monitoring areas examples include monitoring marine water quality, specifically algal blooms Richard Benyon: Owners of septic tanks that discharge concentrations and extent. Annual cross compliance checks on to ground do not legally need to be registered until agricultural subsidies claims are carried out by the Rural Payments 1 January 2012. There will therefore be no penalties Agency (RPA) using satellite imagery. before this date. After this date, the owner would be (b) Satellite technology is used within the resource management committing an offence under the Environmental Permitting processes by the Forestry Commission to create their UK forestry Regulations if they do not have a registration or a inventory. The Environment Agency has used satellite imagery in permit. The Environment Agency will advise owners flooding management situations, such as the Tewkesbury floods who do not have a registration or permit that they are in 2007. committing an offence, and that they must apply for a (c) Urban planning is the responsibility of Department for registration at their earliest convenience. Further action Communities and Local Government and local authorities. will be considered on a case by case basis. (d) Within the policy areas of biodiversity and nature conservation earth observation provides the source information for the UK DEFRA is currently working closely with the Land Cover Map (LCM) and Countryside Survey. Examples of Environment Agency to consider whether the current the Department uses of LCM data include generation of summary approach or an alternative one is the most appropriate. statistics of the extent broad habitats types, habitat distribution and connectivity, ecological modelling and assessments and animal disease transmission. Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance her Department (e) FERA has used EO as an input to improve their understanding of plant disease and in particular “Phytophthora ramorum” plans to provide to householders required to register modelling. sewage discharge from a septic tank under the Within the wider context of earth observation, DEFRA Environmental Permitting Programme Second Phase leads the UK contribution on the EU earth monitoring regulations. [66243] programme, Global Monitoring for Environment and Security (GMES). The Department places a strong Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency is responsible emphasis on meeting user needs within GMES and runs for implementing and administering the Environmental a number of ‘Network Groups’ to support the programme Permitting Regulations 2010. Guidance for householders within the domains of Land, Marine, Atmosphere, on the requirements of these regulations for sewage Climate Change and Emergency’ Response. These cross- discharges from septic tanks can be found online at: community groups provide the Department with a platform http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/topics/water/ for active consideration of the effectiveness and the default.aspx 1179W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1180W

DEFRA is currently working closely with the Richard Benyon: Determining the location and type Environment Agency to check whether the approach is of new waste infrastructure is a matter for local authorities. the most appropriate and whether there might be Development plans set the framework for development opportunities for further simplification. in a local authority area, including what new waste infrastructure is needed and where it should go. In turn, Sustainable Development: EU Action these plans help the authority determine planning applications. The Environment Agency, in its role as a Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for statutory consultee to the planning system, advises local Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she plans authorities on development plans and planning applications to respond to the European Commission Communication to ensure protection of the environment and human on the Rio 2012 Conference on Sustainable Development, health. This is done through its role as a planning COM(2011) 363. [67386] consultee and helps to minimise the impact of waste facilities on the environment and human health. Mr Paice: The Communication sets out the European Commission’s initial views on what it thinks should be Water Companies agreed at the Rio+20 UN Conference on Sustainable Development, 4-6 June 2102. It is a staff working Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for document, and its contents have not been agreed outside Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many the Commission. In October the Environment Council complaints her Department has received concerning is expected to agree Conclusions on Rio+20, and the each water utility company in each of the last five years. UK will be fully involved in the negotiating process [66391] leading up to those Conclusions being adopted: the Communication is the Commission’s contribution to Richard Benyon: DEFRA does not hold a central that process. register of complaints concerning water companies. To Trade Unions produce a definitive list would involve disproportionate cost. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether any staff Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her of her Department are entitled to work full-time on Department is taking in relation to geographical trade union activities while receiving a departmental monopolies by water utility companies. [66393] salary. [60251]

Richard Benyon: There are 10 members of staff in the Richard Benyon: The Water White Paper, due to be Department (six in core DEFRA and four in the executive published by December 2011, will look at the agencies) who are currently engaged in full-time trade recommendations made by Professor Martin Cave in union activities and whose salary is paid by the Department. his independent review of competition and innovation in water markets to apply more competitive pressure to The total salary cost of full-time TU representatives the sector. The Water White Paper will cover the in 2011-12 is forecast to be geographical areas of the water companies that are £356,927, consisting of: wholly or mainly in England. Core DEFRA—£249,350 AHVLA—£25,903 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for RPA—£81,674. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her The total salary cost of full-time TU representatives Department is taking to simplify comparisons between in 2010-11 was £564,821, consisting of: the charges of water utility companies for (a) product and (b) installation costs. [66396] Core DEFRA—£457,244 AHVLA—£25,903 Richard Benyon: Ofwat is the economic regulator of RPA—£81,674. the water and sewerage sectors in England and Wales. Waste Its leaflet “Your water and sewerage bill 2011-12” sets out the charges for each water company in England and Wales. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what timetable A copy has been placed in the Library of the House. she has set for the development of her Department’s Wood: Recycling waste prevention programme. [66495]

Richard Benyon: The waste prevention programme, Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for as required by the revised EU waste framework directive, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what measures will be in place by December 2013. are in place to ensure that individuals are protected from pollution caused by wood recycling; and what Waste Management assessment she has made of the risk to the public from carcinogens in wood dust. [67699] Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her Richard Benyon [holding answer 19 July 2011]: The Department has recently examined the appropriateness treatment and recycling of waste wood may only be of siting waste management sites which use mechanical carried out in accordance with an environmental permit and biological treatment in residential areas. [67429] issued by the Environment Agency or within the rules 1181W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1182W laid down in an exemption from the need for a permit for a child’s social care, health and special educational for chipping, shredding, cutting or pulverising non- needs. The Department for Education plan to test the hazardous waste wood. The permitting and exemption approach starting this year and we will look at the controls are in place in order to prevent harm to human findings of the pathfinders to explore whether the single health and the environment from the recovery and assessment process might also be used to support claims disposal of waste. for disability living allowance and personal independence The Health and Safety Executive has published an payment. information sheet on its website on the hazards and Employment Services: British Sign Language precautions associated with wood dust in the workplace. Yorkshire Dales National Park Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will discuss with the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport the Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for potential assistance of a universal video relay service to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate British Sign Language users in finding and maintaining she has made of the cost to the public purse of the employment. [48246] consultation process on altering the Yorkshire Dales National Park boundaries. [67678] Maria Miller: Supporting disabled people, including those with a hearing impairment, into employment is a Richard Benyon [holding answer 25 July 2011]: In critical role for Government. Liz Sayce has undertaken accordance with section 7 of the National Parks and an independent review of employment support available Access to the Countryside Act 1949, Natural England for disabled people and her report—Getting in, staying must consult with every local authority and parish in and getting on—was published on 9 June. A full council which has land in the area to be designated Government response and consultation was published National Park, as well as every local authority, parish on 11 July. council and the National Park Authority with land in DWP provides a range of services and technology to any National Park whose boundaries are proposed to enable communication for people who are speech or be varied. Natural England’s total consultation costs hearing impaired to support them in finding employment. for consulting with statutory consultees and the general These include Textphones, TexBox, Type-Talk and public on proposed extensions to the boundaries of induction loops. both the Yorkshire Dales and Lake District National Parks is just under £100,000 to March 2011 of which We are happy to explore how our services might be 50% is attributable to the Yorkshire dales. further improved. This may include exploration, with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, of the potential assistance of a universal video reply service. Any such exploration would need to take into account WORK AND PENSIONS any mandate from Ofcom in relation to relay services for telecommunications, as well as the benefits and costs Disability: Young People of video relay technology in delivering our services for disabled people. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing Benefit: Disability Work and Pensions what plans he has to update the system of disability assessments for young disabled Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work people. [67041] and Pensions if he will consider exempting disabled tenants in adapted properties from his proposed Maria Miller: Personal independence payment will reductions in the level of housing benefit where they replace disability living allowance for working-age (16-64) have a spare bedroom. [67401] adults from 2013 and a new, more objective assessment is being designed to gather information about adult Steve Webb: We are aware of concerns about the needs. We want to build on the experience of developing impact on some disabled people in adapted properties an assessment and applying it to new and existing of our proposals to limit housing benefit for social sector claimants of working-age to inform our decisions about tenants who are under-occupying their accommodation. the arrangements for children. Therefore we will not We are looking at potential ways to limit the impact of consider extending personal independence payment to these changes for this group. new claims from children or to children already receiving DLA, until we have had an opportunity to consider the effectiveness of the new arrangements for working age people. We will consult on any substantive changes to TRANSPORT the arrangements for children and regulations on this British Sky Broadcasting issue will be subject to the scrutiny of the House. In developing the arrangements for children on DLA Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for we also want to take account of ongoing work across Transport how much his Department has spent on Government to review more broadly the wide range of subscriptions to Sky TV since May 2010. [67572] support for disabled young people. The Department for Education’s Green Paper ″Support and aspiration: A Norman Baker: The Department has spent £1,864.76 new approach to special educational needs and disability″, on subscriptions to Sky TV since May 2010. This compares published on 10 March, sets out the Government’s with £2,743.13 in the financial year 2009-10. The central aspiration to move towards a single assessment process Department’s subscription to Sky TV was cancelled in 1183W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1184W

December 2010. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency Further advice on mitigating this issue, is published continues to subscribe to the basic Sky TV package to within the Design Manual for Roads and Bridges, and enable them to view regional news coverage of incidents. this is available online at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/ha/standards/dmrb/index.htm Departmental Responsibilities

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) how many meetings he has had with hon. DEFENCE Members of each political party since May 2010; [67157] Aircraft Carriers (2) if he will consider keeping data on the number of times (a) he and (b) officials of his Department have Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for declined a request for a meeting from an hon. Member Defence what estimate he has made of when the first of each political party. [67180] Future Carrier will be operational; and when it will be able to deploy fast jet aircraft from its deck. [66915] Norman Baker: I regret that the information requested is not held in the format requested. Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department receives a large number of invitations Defence by what date he expects the Queen Elizabeth from all sources and we do not consider that keeping class aircraft carriers to be equipped with Joint Strike records of the number of times that meeting requests Fighter aircraft. [67316] are declined would be value for money or practical. It is my general policy to accede to all requests for Peter Luff: The date that the operational Queen meetings requested by hon. Members, irrespective of Elizabeth class aircraft carrier enters service with the party allegiance, unless there are exceptional reasons Royal Navy will depend on which ship will be converted not to do so. to operate the carrier variant Joint Strike Fighter. This in turn will inform when fast jets will be deployed from Motor Vehicles: Insurance the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers. We expect firm decisions to be taken on carrier conversion in late 2012 and it remains our intent to deliver a carrier strike Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for capability from around 2020. Transport what steps his Department is taking in respect of drivers from overseas who are uninsured. Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence [66641] whether planned adjustments to the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers will make them compatible with Mike Penning: All drivers using roads in the UK must French Rafale aircraft. [67315] have at least third party insurance covering the use of their vehicle in this country. Under EU law all insurance Peter Luff: The conversion of the operational Queen policies issued in any EU member state must include the Elizabeth class aircraft carrier will allow the more capable use of that vehicle for minimum third party risks for carrier variant Joint Strike Fighter to be operated. The temporary visits to all EU member states. change in aircraft launch and recovery equipment will Drivers must be able to produce evidence that they offer improved levels of interoperability with our allies’ have the necessary insurance cover in place on request aircraft, including the French Rafale. Further work on from the police. interoperability will be undertaken as part of our conversion investigations, which are expected to conclude in late Motorways: Wildlife 2012.

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Armed Forces: Gurkhas Transport what steps he is taking to protect wildlife crossing motorways. [66635] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what consideration he has given to equalising Mike Penning: The Highways Agency is responsible continuation of services rights for Gurkhas serving in for the Strategic Road Network (SRN) in England, the armed forces; and what discussions he has had on which includes motorways. The agency undertakes works this matter with representatives of Gurkha and former to mitigate the impact of its operational, maintenance Gurkha groups. [66842] and improvement works, including the provision for wildlife crossing the network, and to reduce the risk of Nick Harvey: None, because following implementation animals being killed or injured on the network. of the 2007 review of Gurkha Terms and Conditions of Mitigation measures include tunnels, culverts, Service (TACOS), Gurkhas have served on the same underpasses, adapted farm crossings and species specific TACOS as the rest of the British Army, including the structures such as bat bridges. Appropriate fencing and regulations applying to continuance of service. planting may be included to encourage use of the A survey of the views of serving members of the crossings and/or to integrate them within the surrounding Brigade of Gurkhas was conducted during the course environment. The agency also undertakes research to of the 2007 Gurkha TACOS review. There was also support the development of advice in relation to the wide consultation among organisations representing effectiveness of such measures. the ex-Gurkha community. 1185W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1186W

Challenger Weapons Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with which partners and suppliers his Department Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for is working; and on which projects. [66707] Defence (1) what plans he has to upgrade the Challenger weapons system; [67320] Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence let around 22,000 contracts last year and uses over 30,000 suppliers, (2) what assessment he has made of the future of the ranging in size from large multi-nationals to micro- Challenger weapons system. [67321] enterprises, details of which are not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. We do, Peter Luff: The Challenger 2 main battle tank provides however, publish a list of our largest suppliers each year the Army’s principal organic precision direct fire capability. in Table 1.17 of “UK Defence Statistics”. Copies are The strategic defence and security review set out an available in the Library of the House. enduring requirement for this capability in the future. The Challenger 2 capability sustainment programme Departmental Air Travel is currently in the concept phase. We expect to take a decision on the assessment phase around the middle of the decade. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on what occasions he has flown on official business Defence Board (a) by budget airline and (b) in economy class in the last 12 months. [67914]

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Fox: I have not flown on official business on a Defence when meetings of the Defence Board are scheduled budget airline. to occur in the period to May 2015. [66898] On 23 May 2011 I flew in economy class from Tampa Dr Fox: I currently plan to chair Defence Boards on to Washington DC. the following dates this year: Departmental Correspondence 16 September 21 October Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State 16 December. for Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of As you might expect, the dates for these meetings are each item of correspondence his Department has subject to change if required. received from Ministers in HM Treasury in respect of In addition I plan to hold a further strategy awayday its RAF basing review. [67400] for the Board in the autumn. The date for this is being finalised. Dr Fox: No. To do so would be prejudicial to the Details of meetings for 2012 and beyond will be maintenance of the collective responsibility of Ministers published nearer the time. of the Crown.

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Public Expenditure Defence whether he plans to make the minutes of the Defence Board meetings available to hon. Members. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for [66899] Defence what proportion of his Department’s budget has been spent on (a) munitions, (b) urgent operational Dr Fox: The Ministry of Defence will routinely publish requirements, (c) personnel, (d) equipment, (e) major Defence Board agendas, unclassified summaries of projects and (f) office costs since October 2010. [66900] conclusions, meeting dates, and lists of papers taken by the Board. Dr Fox: The following table shows the spend between 1 October 2010 and 31 March 2011 on munitions, Defence: Procurement administration costs (excluding personnel), major projects, equipment and equipment support, and personnel, as a Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for proportion of the total annual Defence budget for Defence what steps his Department is taking to encourage 2010-11. the use of UK small and medium-sized enterprises in its projects; and what account he takes of such steps in Percentage implementing a strategy of buying supplies off-the-shelf. Munitions 0.27 [66706] Administration Costs (excl. 0.55 personnel) Nick Harvey: In the Defence and Security sectors, Major Projects 2.12 small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) are often Equipment and Equipment 17.08 an important source of research and innovation, as well Support as offering adaptability and flexibility. The Government Personnel 18.49 recognises that SMEs face a number of challenges when looking to supply goods and services to the Government. Urgent operational requirements (UORs) are not The forthcoming White Paper on Equipment, Support funded from the Defence budget but from the and Technology for UK Defence and Security will set Governmental Special Reserve. The cost to the reserve out how the Government will encourage and enable of UORs from 1 October 2010 to 31 March 2011 was SMEs to participate more fully in these sectors. £321 million. 1187W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1188W

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: Since 12 May 2010, the Department Defence what proportion of his Department’s budget has spent £3,720.01 on ministerial first class rail travel has been spent on (a) operational costs for theatres of in the UK. No departmental funds have been spent on engagement and (b) running costs associated with first class rail travel for special advisers since that date. offices, staff, training and logistics since October 2010. [66901] Equipment: Defence Dr Fox: For the purpose of answering this question, I have taken ‘running costs’ to be the Ministry of Defence’s administrative costs regime, (ACR) which includes the Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for costs of major headquarters and spend in certain categories Defence what discussions he has had with the Chancellor such as office accommodation and travel and subsistence. of the Exchequer on the future use of equipment purchased The proportion of the 2010-11 annual Defence budget under recent urgent operational requirements; and what covered by the ACR between 1 October 2010 and his policy is on the future use or disposal of such 31 March 2011 was 3.01%. equipment. [67322] The operational costs for theatres of engagement are not funded from the Defence budget but from the Peter Luff: Defence Ministers and officials have frequent governmental special reserve. £1,458 million was charged discussions with colleagues from HM Treasury on a to the reserve for the operating costs for operations range of issues including equipment capability procured (excluding capital costs) in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya under Urgent Operational Requirement (UOR) procedures. from 1 October 2010 to 31 March 2011. UOR equipment is routinely reviewed after 12 months of initial deployment or at the end of the operation for Departmental Responsibilities which it was procured, whichever is sooner. If it is judged to have future utility to Defence, it may be taken Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence into the core programme. Where a capability is judged if he will consider keeping data on the number of times to be effective for the operation but has no future utility (a) he and (b) officials of his Department have declined to Defence, it is supported for the length of the operation. a request for a meeting from an hon. Member of each If a capability is no longer required it is either run into political party. [67193] obsolescence while it retains limited utility, or is disposed of. We are currently assessing which UOR equipment Dr Fox: No. capabilities have enduring utility.

Departmental Travel European Fighter Aircraft: Pilots Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much his Department has spent on travel Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for since May 2010. [59547] Defence what proportion of Typhoon pilots are trained to engage ground targets. [66894] Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) spent some £190 million on travel and subsistence between Nick Harvey: Currently, 61% of UK qualified Typhoon May 2010 and May 2011. pilots are trained to engage ground targets. The Typhoon This figure includes, for both service and civilian force has a sufficient number of pilots trained to engage staff, the cost of travel and accommodation booked ground targets for current operations. centrally, the reimbursement of expenses incurred when using their own vehicle for duty journeys, most rail fares not booked centrally and some car hire costs. The Future Force 2020 figures also include expenses reimbursed to civilian staff for overnight accommodation, subsistence, taxi, bus and underground fares, parking charges and road tolls, Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for and most of their air fares not booked centrally. Costs Defence (1) how many infantry battalions will be required of the MOD’s White Fleet are not included as they are for Future Force 2020; [67318] not recorded on a monthly basis; however, we estimate (2) how many infantry battalions will be required that White Fleet contract and fuel costs averaged around under Force 2020. [67392] £4.5 million a month. The figures also do not include all travel and subsistence costs reimbursed to service personnel, Nick Harvey: As the Secretary of State for Defence, but we are currently improving the accessibility of these my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset in the interests of transparency. (Dr Fox) said in his statement to the House on 18 July By whatever means staff travel, they must do so in a 2011, Official Report, columns 643-45, there will be a way that is the most economical in both money and progressive adjustment to the regular/reserve balance of official time. the Army as the capabilities of the Territorial Army I apologise for the delay in providing this information. improve in order to better meet the adaptable posture set out in the strategic defence and security review. This Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for adjustment will require changes to the planned structures Defence how much his Department has spent on first of the Army and work is now under way to define the class rail fares for (a) Ministers and (b) special detail. Before this work is complete it would be inappropriate advisers since May 2010. [59615] to comment on the exact composition of Future Force 2020. 1189W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1190W

Libya The strategic defence and security review (SDSR) set out the need to retain high-readiness forces, including Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for air and naval operations, which provide for the possibility Defence how much his Department has spent on transport of a military response to a wide range of potential of equipment during operations in Libya; and what crises, alongside continuing to fulfil our standing modes of transport have been engaged. [66897] commitments. Events in Libya have confirmed the validity of the SDSR decision to adopt an adaptable posture Nick Harvey: The majority of Operation Ellamy with flexible forces. freight has been moved by RAF military transport The outstanding work of our armed forces in Operation vehicles at a cost of some £700,000; this has been Ellamy demonstrates that the UK remains able to project supplemented by commercial road haulage at a cost of power and influence. some £250,000. Maritime Environment Similarly, the majority of movements of equipment by air have been by RAF C17 and C130 aircraft at a total cost of some £61.8 million. This was supplemented Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for by commercial charter at a cost of some £460,000. Defence if he will place in the Library copies of the reports titled (a) Maritime Environment and (b) Air No sealift support has been used for Operation Ellamy. Environment, referred to in section 2.7 of the National Audit Office report on Carrier Strike, HC 1092. [67500] Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what provision his Department is making for Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence does not intend extended operations in Libya. [66903] to place the reports in the Library of the House as their release would be prejudicial to effective conduct of Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence routinely plans public affairs. for a wide range of operational scenarios. Mull of Kintyre Review Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent assessment he has made of the Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for effects of operations in Libya on military capabilities. Defence pursuant to his oral statement of 13 July 2011, [66948] on the Mull of Kintyre review, whether he plans to meet the families affected to discuss the findings of the Dr Fox [holding answer 18 July 2011]: As the Chief review. [67352] of Defence Staff said on 14 June 2011: “We can sustain this operation as long as we choose to. I am Dr Fox [holding answer 18 July 2011]: I was glad to absolutely clear on that.” have the opportunity to speak to members of the families Events in Libya have confirmed the Strategic Defence most affected by the findings of the review on the day of and Security Review decisions to adopt an adaptable publication. posture with flexible forces—we can conduct a wide range of operations at considerable distance from UK Nimrod MRA4 Aircraft and we retain high readiness forces for air and naval operations. The outstanding work of our armed forces Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for in Operation Ellamy demonstrates that the UK remains Defence what the estimated further costs are of able to project power and influence. decommissioning the Nimrod MRA4 aircraft. [66905]

Libya: Aircraft Carriers Peter Luff: A settlement has been reached with BAE Systems for all of the terminated Nimrod MRA4 contracts. I am withholding the value of this settlement as its Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for disclosure would prejudice commercial interests. Defence how much his Department has spent on the use by UK aircraft of foreign airfields for operations in It is not yet possible to estimate what the final costs Libya; and if he will estimate the comparable cost for or receipts will be for dismantling and disposing of the Nimrod MRA4 aircraft. the use of an aircraft carrier. [67381] However, the decision not to bring the Nimrod MRA4 Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the letter I into service is expected to save around £2 billion over sent to the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) the next 10 years. on 7 July 2011, Official Report, columns 1355-56W. Redundancy

Libya: Armed Conflict Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what roles in his Department are being removed Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for as part of the redundancy programme; and what steps Defence what assessment he has made of the impact of he is taking to maintain the delivery of his Department’s operations in Libya on the UK’s standing defence functions during and following implementation of commitments. [64871] reductions in staff numbers. [66902]

Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence has assessed Dr Fox: Where specific capabilities have been removed that current operations in Libya are not impacting on under the strategic defence and security review, such as the UK’s standing defence commitments. Type 22 Frigates, Harrier, and Nimrod MRA4 aircraft, 1191W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1192W the roles linked solely to the delivery of those capabilities per person for international flights, which included an are being removed. Some personnel previously in those official visit to India en route to Sri Lanka. roles will be reallocated to other functions. Reductions will be targeted at specific ranks, trades and branches Warrior Weapons where we currently have more personnel than we will need to support the future structure and capability, or Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for where there is an imbalance in numbers. Defence (1) what assessment he has made of the future We will direct, co-ordinate and drive forward of the Warrior weapons system; [67319] implementation of all the changes to force structures, (2) what plans he has to upgrade the Warrior weapons our organisation and the way we work through the system. [67327] Defence transformation programme. This is being taken forward under the direction of Mr Jonathan Slater, the Peter Luff: Warrior is the Army’s principal infantry newly appointed director general for transformation fighting vehicle and is integral to armoured manoeuvre, and corporate strategy, overseen by the Defence providing an unmatched combination of protection Transformation Board that I chair. and mobility. The strategic defence and security review set out an enduring requirement for an armoured infantry Royal Air Force capability, which the Warrior capability sustainment programme will deliver by extending the service life of Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the fleet. what recent additional resources he has allocated to the The Warrior capability sustainment programme is (a) Royal Air Force and (b) Royal Navy for commitments currently in its assessment phase. The main investment in Libya. [66841] decision is expected later this year.

Nick Harvey: Any additional costs incurred by the Ministry of Defence as a result of operations in Libya are charged to the special Treasury Reserve. Operations HEALTH are co-ordinated and undertaken jointly. As a result, British Sky Broadcasting these costs are not readily broken down by service. South Sudan: Military Aid Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department has spent on subscriptions Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for to Sky TV since May 2010. [67565] Defence if he will provide a small military training and Mr Simon Burns: Since May 2010, the Department’s technical team to the Government of Southern Sudan Media Centre has paid £3,054.77 (which includes value to assist their military capacity building. [64155] added tax) to maintain its monthly subscription to Sky TV. Nick Harvey: We will support capacity building by the governments of Sudan and the Republic of South Cancer: Drugs Sudan through a variety of targeted training opportunities. Special Air Service: Recruitment Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the average time taken was to process applications to the interim Cancer Drugs Fund from Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for the time of their receipt (a) nationally and (b) in each Defence what steps he is taking to ensure appropriate strategic health authority in the latest period for which recruitment of personnel to the Special Air Service. figures are available. [67505] [66843] Paul Burstow: This information is not being collected Nick Harvey: The immense contribution of our highly- centrally. professional Special Forces is largely unreported, but In July 2010 the national health service Medical this is necessary in order to protect operational capability. Director issued guidance to strategic health authorities It is a long-standing policy that the Government do not which made clear that arrangements for the distribution ordinarily comment on matters relating to UK Special of the additional £50 million of cancer drugs funding Forces. made available in 2010-11 should support timely decision- Sri Lanka making, bearing in mind the 31 day cancer treatment standard. A copy of the guidance has been placed in the Library. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the cost to the public purse was of (a) Care Homes: Insolvency staff, (b) assistance and (c) accommodation in respect of his visit to Sri Lanka in July 2011. [66946] Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will estimate the number of providers in Dr Fox [holding answer 18 July 2011]: I refer the the social care sector at risk of insolvency. [67408] hon. Member to the answers I gave on 20 July 2011, Official Report, columns 1143-44W. Paul Burstow: The Department has not made any Accommodation and assistance was provided by the such assessment. It is for the Care Quality Commission, high commission at no additional cost; the cost to the as the regulator of adult social care services, to satisfy public purse of the three accompanying staff was £5,858.23 itself that a care service provider is financially viable. 1193W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1194W

Mental Health Services: Greater London Palliative Care

Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Health John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to the mental health performance data whether his end-of-life care proposals include any for NHS London for the third quarter of 2010-11, for mechanism to measure and recognise the financial what reasons the use of early intervention services and contribution of families to the care of vulnerable people. crisis resolution services increased. [67883] [67464]

Paul Burstow: In London, there were 3,992 people Paul Burstow: We recognise the enormous contribution, receiving treatment by early intervention teams at the including financial contribution, that families make to end of the third quarter (December 2010) compared to the care of people approaching the end of life. 3,957 in quarter two and 3,928 in quarter one. We welcome the final report of the independent Data for Crisis Resolution services are collected Palliative Care Funding Review, which was published cumulatively. In London, teams carried out 17,867 home on 1 July. This has made an excellent start in looking at treatment episodes over the first three quarters in 2010-11; the complex and challenging issue of funding for palliative of which 6,060 episodes were recorded for quarter one care and has come up with a range of significant and 12,009 episodes for quarter two. proposals. We need now to consider these recommendations Data suggest that there was no noticeable increase in in detail and expect to consult stakeholders on the way activities by the early intervention and crisis resolution forward later this summer before running pilots. services in London. Data is collected by the NHS Information Centre; it John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health is available on request but not routinely published. what methods will be used to measure (a) quality and (b) access to services under his proposals for the provision of end-of-life care. [67465] Mental Illness: Offenders Paul Burstow: The independent Palliative Care Funding Jack Lopresti: To ask the Secretary of State for Review has looked at how Government can make sure Health with reference to the joint HM inspectorate of that the money intended to help look after people who prisons and HM inspectorate of constabulary report are approaching the end of life, and children who need into police custody suites in Avon and Somerset, what palliative care, is spent in the right way. This will better guidance his Department has issued to primary care enable people—children, adults and families—to choose trusts on the provision of places of safety for people how and from whom they receive the care they need. detained under section 136 of the Mental Health Act The Review, which reported on 1 July, has made an 1983; and if he will take steps to assist South excellent start in looking at this complex and challenging Gloucestershire primary care trust to improve its issue. It has come up with a range of significant proposals. provision of such places. [67851] We need now to consider these recommendations in detail and expect to consult stakeholders on the way Paul Burstow: The Department published guidance forward later this summer before running pilots. on places of safety in the revised Mental Health Act 1983 code of practice in May 2008, effective from The Department has previously set out in the NHS November 2008. In addition, the Department issued Outcomes Framework its plans to develop a national guidance on section 44 of the Mental Health Act 2007 indicator to measure the quality of end of life care. This about transferring patients between places of safety. will be informed by a national survey of the bereaved, This came into force in April 2008. which is currently being developed. We have also introduced an Indicator into the NHS Operating Framework for The Department is working with the Association of 2011-12 to measure the improvement on the proportion Chief Police Officers and the National Police Improvement of people who die in their usual place of residence—that Agency to develop joint guidance on mental health is, their home or their care home. which included a response to section 136 (s136) and a template for a service level agreement on how a health-based place of safety should be managed in accordance with Physiotherapy: Fees and Charges the Mental Health Act 1983 code of practice. Additionally, the Department is working with 10 police Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health early adopter forces to transfer commissioning of police (1) pursuant to the answer of 7 June 2011, Official custodial health care. Complicit in this work will be care Report, column 91W,on physiotherapy, and with reference pathways for several cohorts of detainees into current to the NHS Future Forum report, what steps his community provision, including section 136 detainees Department plans to take to ensure that prices set for into a health-based place of safety. physiotherapy services within the NHS do not lead to restrictions on the availability of services to patients; Commissioning responsibility for all national health and if he will make a statement; [67388] service services, including the provision of places of safety for section 136 detainees, rests with primary care (2) what measures his Department plans to put in trusts (PCTs). Each PCT should decide which health place for future oversight of prices set for physiotherapy care treatments and services to provide for its local services within the NHS; [67389] population, and commission these from NHS or (3) what steps his Department plans to take to ensure independent sector providers. The Department is not that prices set for physiotherapy services within the prescriptive about how individual PCTs spend their NHS (a) are consistent across geographical areas and budgets. (b) do not lead to competition based on price. [67390] 1195W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1196W

Mr Simon Burns: We have proposed that future oversight The patient information sheets on Prostate Specific of prices within the national health service would be Antigen testing in the PCRMP packs make it clear that undertaken by Monitor and the NHS Commissioning prostate cancer is less common in men below the age of Board, as set out in the Health and Social Care Bill 50, and the risk is greater for men with a familial history (Part 3, Chapter 5). Under the proposed legislation, it of prostate cancer and black-African and black-Caribbean would be for the NHS Commissioning Board to agree men. with Monitor whether and to what extent prices for To mark Ethnic Minority Cancer Awareness Week physiotherapy services were to be determined by the (11 to 17 July 2011), the National Cancer Action Team national tariff, or set locally. (NCAT) sponsored a supplement in The Voice newspaper Monitor would lead on developing the methodology which had a whole page dedicated to black men’s higher for determining prices under the national tariff and risk of prostate cancer, including facts about prostate agree this with the NHS Commissioning Board. We cancer and testing for prostate cancer. NCAT has now would expect Monitor to ensure consistency in the commenced a targeted awareness campaign, with 10,000 methodology for determining prices across different copies of the supplement being distributed across London, geographical areas, having regard to any unavoidable the West Midlands, the East Midlands, Bradford and differences in the cost of providing services in different Manchester. The supplement followed an editorial in geographical areas. The Voice in May 2011 that directly addressed the In carrying out its functions, Monitor would have to higher incidence of prostate cancer in black men. have regard to the need for commissioners to secure The Department is working collaboratively with Newham access to health care services, to meet the needs of their primary care trust, Newham University Hospital National populations, and to make best use of NHS resources in Health Service Trust, The Prostate Cancer Charity and doing so. In this way, commissioners will remain responsible NCAT on a pilot community walk-in clinic for men for securing services and making best use of NHS with prostate problems at the Newham African-Caribbean resources to meet the health care needs of their populations, Resource Centre. The pilot, which also aims to increase including in securing access to physiotherapy. awareness of prostate cancer among the local population, We tabled amendments during Public Bill Committee is being evaluated to find out whether providing such a to make clear that the national tariff would be a fixed service in a community setting can make a difference to price, rather than a maximum price, so as to enable the numbers of men accessing this type of service rather competition on quality, not on price, driven by patients’ than more traditional services. The clinic also offers choices. For services outside the scope of the national men a series of prostate related tests, if required, with tariff, we would expect commissioners to set prices on most test results provided immediately. value for money criteria, as per guidance set out in the ‘Procurement guide for commissioners of NHS-funded Radiotherapy: Finance services’, published in July 2010: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_118218 for Health (1) how many applications (a) in total and A copy of this document has already been placed in the (b) to each strategic health authority for selective Library. internal radiation therapy have been (i) achieved, (ii) approved and (iii) denied under (A) the interim Cancer Prostate Cancer: Screening Drugs Fund and (B) the Cancer Drugs Fund; [67837] (2) which strategic health authorities have included Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Health selective internal radiation therapy as a treatment to be (1) what plans his Department has to improve access to reimbursed by (a) the interim Cancer Drugs Fund and information on the prostate-specific antigen test for (b) the Cancer Drugs Fund. [67838] men at higher risk of developing prostate cancer including men (a) from African and African Caribbean backgrounds, Paul Burstow: Decisions on which drugs, including (b) with a family history of the disease and (c) over the radiopharmaceuticals; are funded from the additional age of 50; and if he will make a statement; [67409] cancer drugs funding arrangements are a matter for (2) what steps his Department is taking, beyond the regional clinically-led panels based on the advice of Prostate Cancer Risk Management Programme, to cancer specialists. raise awareness of prostate cancer amongst men at Details of the arrangements that strategic health higher risk of the disease including men (a) from authorities have in place for the distribution of this African and African Caribbean backgrounds, (b) with funding are available on their websites. a family history of the disease and (c) over the age of 50; and if he will make a statement. [67410] Information on the number of patients treated through these arrangements is being collected by the Department Paul Burstow: “Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for and a breakdown of strategic health authority expenditure Cancer” highlights that the United Kingdom National for 2010-11 is not yet available. Screening Committee has asked the Prostate Cancer The Department is currently establishing monitoring Advisory Group (PCAG) to explore options for making arrangements for 2011-12. the evidence-based Prostate Cancer Risk Management Programme (PCRMP) information more accessible to Social Services: Finance all men. The Department is supportive of the principles of The Prostate Cancer Charity’s “Testing Choices” Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for campaign, and continues to work with the charity through Health what recent estimate he has made of the annual PCAG, of which Owen Sharp, the chief executive of cost to local authorities (a) in Teesside and (b) The Prostate Cancer Charity, is a member. nationally of the provision of social care. [67727] 1197W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1198W

Paul Burstow: Our latest expenditure data show that, Paul Burstow: The NHS Information Centre for health in 2009-10, net current expenditure across the three and social care collects and publishes data relating to local authorities of Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland, the number of social workers directly employed by and Stockton-on-Tees was £145.922 million. The equivalent social services departments within councils with social figure for England was £14,435.275 million. services responsibilities in England. Social Services: Manpower The following table shows the number of whole-time equivalent social workers employed in each council in Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for England during the period 2000 to 2010 as at 30 September. Health how many social workers were employed by each local authority in (a) England and (b) Wales in Data for Wales are not collected by the NHS Information each of the last 10 years. [67827] Centre.

Number of social workers (whole time equivalent) employed by social services departments in England by council from 2000 to 2010 As at 30 September 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

England1 36,900 37,800 38,800 40,400 41,100 42,400 43,900 44,800 44,800 45,700 45,800

Barking and 95 105 110 110 130 135 150 225 260 215 205 Dagenham Barnet 185 220 245 265 270 250 255 255 285 250 290 Barnsley 165 165 170 165 180 185 230 225 145 220 215 Bath and North East 115 115 120 115 105 135 130 140 140 120 115 Somerset Bedfordshire2 200 215 235 240 270 295 305 285 255 n/a n/a Bedford n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 230 200 Central Bedfordshire n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 90 95 Bexley 155 165 165 165 140 145 135 125 110 145 145 Birmingham 855 935 1,035 1,060 1,160 1,140 1,155 1,165 1,235 1,225 1,165 Blackburn 125 125 135 135 160 170 180 185 190 180 190 Blackpool 145 130 115 125 130 150 150 170 170 195 195 Bolton 235 240 245 285 255 285 310 340 320 295 255 Bournemouth 175 175 170 165 170 165 175 175 170 180 200 Bracknell Forest 65 60 75 70 65 85 75 85 100 100 105 Bradford 380 390 400 415 465 480 505 510 515 525 560 Brent 205 160 275 220 180 210 215 240 240 260 275 Brighton and Hove 295 330 275 295 285 310 370 495 400 365 255 Bristol 390 365 405 450 465 475 500 460 510 495 500 Bromley 185 175 175 175 200 225 225 240 235 230 230 Buckinghamshire 220 220 205 215 195 210 240 255 285 290 260 Bury 135 145 140 135 145 140 150 165 150 165 180 Calderdale 125 125 130 120 135 130 120 140 135 135 65 Cambridgeshire 305 370 420 400 265 265 280 270 300 325 335 Camden 280 265 265 270 290 320 360 365 360 355 380 Cheshire2 395 415 420 420 435 460 490 455 510 n/a n/a Cheshire East n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 255 250 Cheshire West and n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 250 245 Chester City of London 25 25 15 25 20 15 25 15 15 10 10 Cornwall 265 265 280 305 335 385 425 405 395 395 375 Coventry 220 250 255 295 305 305 325 335 320 330 360 Croydon 225 220 230 240 265 290 300 305 285 270 220 Cumbria 305 330 350 370 370 405 405 410 425 435 430 Darlington 65757060807580859085100 Derby 250 250 255 255 230 230 240 240 235 205 255 Derbyshire 510 495 535 550 565 590 590 580 590 615 630 Devon 485 420 430 440 440 490 500 490 435 470 440 Doncaster 180 180 200 205 255 265 255 270 290 290 305 Dorset 295 305 320 325 310 310 330 335 340 410 435 Dudley 185 200 200 200 245 250 290 315 300 295 255 Durham 375 410 420 380 395 405 425 425 455 495 490 Ealing 175 200 155 195 220 275 325 340 315 315 340 East Riding 220 235 240 185 210 200 215 210 220 230 295 East Sussex 465 440 485 520 545 540 545 565 580 610 640 Enfield 135 155 170 190 220 235 240 275 250 275 280 1199W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1200W

Number of social workers (whole time equivalent) employed by social services departments in England by council from 2000 to 2010 As at 30 September 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Essex 750 870 855 870 805 795 855 890 755 875 890 Gateshead 200 205 200 205 205 205 200 190 195 200 210 Gloucestershire 325 310 270 270 310 315 305 290 275 290 275 Greenwich 235 245 235 260 255 285 295 390 350 330 310 Hackney 295 280 185 185 205 205 230 305 280 245 275 Halton 90 90 90 100 105 100 100 90 105 110 120 Hammersmith and 215 210 235 250 235 255 265 260 345 365 215 Fulham Hampshire 570 635 535 760 765 755 700 685 715 685 750 Haringey 175 265 280 360 290 275 155 285 280 270 285 Harrow 180 170 185 180 180 180 180 185 185 165 175 Hartlepool 105 120 115 120 120 105 105 105 110 100 110 Havering 100 105 105 100 120 120 125 140 130 150 165 Herefordshire 105 105 115 115 115 110 110 125 130 135 115 Hertfordshire 790 790 695 685 675 675 700 725 700 670 670 Hillingdon 155 150 180 190 180 215 205 215 210 205 240 Hounslow 105 145 140 150 160 190 210 210 185 195 200 Isle of Wight 125 115 120 115 140 140 145 145 145 145 145 Isles of Scilly 00000000555 Islington 310 255 265 255 290 340 340 335 335 330 310 Kensington and 260 245 245 245 250 260 250 270 270 270 260 Chelsea Kent 995 1,065 1,120 1,165 1,190 1,240 1,205 1,155 1,170 1,120 1,235 Kingston-upon-Hull 235 240 255 330 370 355 390 360 285 370 345 Kingston-upon- 115 105 115 110 115 120 135 120 140 155 165 Thames Kirklees 295 300 335 345 365 380 365 365 360 385 400 Knowsley 125 120 130 150 155 155 165 165 160 140 85 Lambeth 470 295 250 265 295 285 285 285 315 320 355 Lancashire 685 715 735 750 750 790 840 795 865 945 1,015 Leeds 520 550 555 600 620 625 655 670 680 680 595 Leicester 315 320 360 375 355 385 385 385 410 425 440 Leicestershire 295 295 290 290 285 300 290 280 265 295 295 Lewisham 285 285 275 305 265 270 305 310 305 295 300 Lincolnshire 335 400 350 355 350 355 370 375 400 410 425 Liverpool 450 425 430 440 420 400 425 495 485 505 495 Luton 140 175 140 155 145 155 180 120 125 135 120 Manchester 510 520 510 490 515 560 580 585 605 545 560 Medway Towns 175 185 190 190 190 200 205 220 210 210 225 Merton 100 85 90 130 110 100 140 140 140 135 145 Middlesbrough 160 165 195 205 235 240 265 265 250 275 300 Milton Keynes 125 140 160 160 155 170 165 190 185 185 190 North East 90 85 120 145 125 115 130 105 110 105 115 Lincolnshire North Lincolnshire 95 90 100 115 125 130 145 150 135 170 235 Newcastle upon Tyne 330 345 345 350 325 315 350 385 420 440 465 Newham 275 270 245 250 295 315 340 375 415 345 280 Norfolk 520 510 540 555 605 620 605 590 625 600 615 North Somerset 135 125 130 145 165 160 165 180 165 175 180 North Tyneside 170 190 170 180 210 175 180 185 205 215 100 North Yorkshire 305 310 340 380 420 470 470 470 440 460 460 Northamptonshire 275 365 410 655 345 405 430 430 445 440 245 Northumberland 280 305 275 195 195 220 215 220 210 200 205 Nottingham 375 385 370 380 385 335 330 315 345 340 340 Nottinghamshire 485 505 545 565 605 615 630 620 625 530 640 Oldham 155 185 190 195 190 160 200 230 190 230 215 Oxfordshire 390 405 390 395 420 425 430 440 465 475 465 Peterborough 75 105 70 85 75 95 105 95 105 120 115 Plymouth 210 200 215 225 245 225 215 220 250 280 280 Poole 100 125 125 120 120 120 130 130 125 145 145 1201W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1202W

Number of social workers (whole time equivalent) employed by social services departments in England by council from 2000 to 2010 As at 30 September 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Portsmouth 150 170 165 175 165 190 180 190 100 100 220 Reading 120 120 115 120 100 105 105 105 100 115 135 Redbridge 115 125 130 140 145 185 190 230 195 215 205 Redcar and Cleveland 120 125 125 125 120 120 125 135 140 160 135 Richmond upon 115 90 120 110 115 115 125 130 120 125 110 Thames Rochdale 160 175 180 190 205 195 200 200 195 175 145 Rotherham 220 245 270 270 260 230 215 255 250 275 305 Rutland 10 10 10 15 15 20 20 20 20 25 20 Salford 235 220 245 270 270 280 315 370 365 400 390 Sandwell 230 120 225 225 260 235 280 300 270 265 270 Sefton 215 200 205 215 220 245 250 255 225 255 255 Sheffield 460 475 475 490 560 570 635 645 550 650 710 Shropshire 170 185 190 210 215 245 210 195 195 200 200 Slough 70 85 80 115 120 120 135 145 125 130 125 Solihull 170 155 165 170 155 150 170 135 140 155 165 Somerset 375 390 405 420 415 415 440 415 405 420 420 South Gloucestershire 140 155 155 155 160 150 185 185 200 200 195 South Tyneside 130 145 175 195 225 240 230 235 230 110 75 Southampton 185 220 220 145 255 215 215 255 250 270 255 Southend 115 125 130 130 110 110 135 130 140 150 170 Southwark 300 315 335 355 390 410 455 465 455 435 465 St Helens 140 125 150 150 165 170 160 155 145 160 170 Staffordshire 580 560 580 630 655 770 775 760 795 765 465 Stockport n/a 205 210 210 230 235 240 255 280 305 315 Stockton-on-Tees 145 145 n/a 140 140 150 150 155 205 230 195 Stoke-on-Trent 275 255 265 245 270 245 285 295 295 255 275 Suffolk 340 335 395 385 465 450 430 380 495 515 545 Sunderland 275 310 345 355 295 310 310 320 310 320 375 Surrey 560 580 600 615 555 655 710 645 730 730 685 Sutton 110 130 155 145 145 145 160 160 170 180 175 Swindon 150 165 140 135 160 145 160 165 140 150 160 Tameside 140 145 160 170 160 160 180 185 185 200 215 Telford and Wrekin 160 155 150 150 165 180 180 180 190 185 210 Thurrock 105 125 110 125 165 170 175 170 160 145 155 Torbay 105 115 125 125 145 140 110 95 95 95 95 Tower Hamlets 220 240 265 275 310 365 350 360 320 380 390 Trafford 135 145 140 150 145 155 180 180 185 195 205 Wakefield 325 335 335 335 305 320 315 350 345 350 335 Walsall 240 260 235 195 255 245 260 265 250 255 295 Waltham Forest 205 195 195 215 240 210 265 210 190 240 280 Wandsworth 275 280 275 260 245 245 245 260 275 300 300 Warrington 110 125 140 170 170 175 180 175 180 180 190 Warwickshire n/a 340 370 425 385 380 370 380 390 435 455 West Berkshire 80 80 85 110 95 110 110 120 110 115 115 West Sussex 425 440 475 505 505 465 530 510 560 615 625 Westminster 310 305 325 325 305 345 350 365 335 325 305 Wigan 275 305 315 335 230 260 250 320 260 290 295 Wiltshire 265 235 230 240 245 270 275 255 285 220 270 Windsor and 80 60 60 75 80 90 85 90 85 80 100 Maidenhead Wirral 270 260 265 255 280 300 315 335 335 330 360 Wokingham 85 95 95 85 105 105 105 110 110 105 100 Wolverhampton 175 150 200 205 220 210 225 215 240 230 220 Worcestershire 385 380 385 400 420. 390 420 430 430 420 470 York 110 105 155 125 150 120 115 70 135 185 180 n/a = Data not available. Estimates have been used to produce England figures. 1 The sum of the council data may not add up to the England total due to rounding. 2 In April 2009 Bedfordshire and Cheshire were split into four councils ″Bedford″ and ″Central Bedfordshire″,and″Cheshire East″ and ″Cheshire West and Chester″ respective. Note: Data have been rounded to the nearest 5. 1203W Written Answers11 AUGUST 2011 Written Answers 1204W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE projects. He opened talks on potential major commercial deals, and reported back to Government on new commercial Saudi Arabia opportunities. He was also able to inform major Gulf investors about key UK inward investment opportunities Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for which have laid essential groundwork for his future Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the follow-up visit with a trade and investment delegation answer of 7 July 2011, Official Report, column 1376W, in his capacity as chairman of the ambassadors’ network. on visits abroad: Saudi Arabia, what official meetings or functions the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State attended; and what the (a) purpose and (b) outcome was of each. [66528] JUSTICE

Mr Jeremy Browne: Lord Marland met a variety of Lancaster Farms Young Offender Institution: Health British businesses during a dinner on his arrival on Services 29 May 2011. The next day he attended the International Energy Forum where he met Noe Van Hulst, Secretary David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for General. Later he met Prince Salman bin Abdulaziz, Justice why there has been a reduction in the budget cut Governor of Riyadh, Dr Waleed Abulfaraj, VP, King of the medical services at Lancaster Farms Young Abdullah City for Atomic and Renewable Energy Offender Institution. [67597] (KACARE) and Prince Abdulaziz bin Salman, Assistant Minister for Petroleum Affairs. Finally, he visited King Paul Burstow: I have been asked to reply. Saud University and met the President, Dr Abdullah al The 2010-11 health care budget at Her Majesty’s Othman. Prison YoungOffenders Institute Lancaster Farms (HMP The purpose of the meetings was to strengthen the YOI Lancaster Farms) was reduced by £562,000. This UK’s relationship with Saudi Arabia on energy, commercial represents a 29% reduction in the health care budget and other bilateral issues. This included reinforcing the issued to HMP YOI Lancaster Farms and directly Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s Gulf Initiative, correlates to the removal of 130 places for people under discussing oil and gas issues and exploring opportunities the age of 18 by the Youth Justice Board (YJB). for the British and Saudi governments to support the The YJB’s decision to remove 130 places, and the private sector in driving sustainable and mutually beneficial funding adjustment itself, reflect the current absence of growth. young people under 18 being held at HMP YOI Lancaster The outcome of the meetings was a strengthened Farms. The Department and NHS North Lancashire producer-consumer dialogue on wide range of energy are confident that appropriate services are deliverable issues, including oil and gas market evolution and nuclear within the confines of revised funding.

13MC Ministerial Corrections11 AUGUST 2011 Ministerial Corrections 14MC

Ministerial Correction £ million FY2007-08 Company (3 months) FY2008-09 FY2009-10 Total Thursday 11 August 2011 Palletways 0.547 1.917 2.134 4.598 Pertemps 0 3.439 2.731 6.170 Private couriers 0.880 2.179 1.440 3.707 DEFENCE As a direct result of the decision to close the regional distribution centres and centralise distribution activities MOD Bicester at Bicester and Donnington with greater use of third party logistics contractors, annual net savings of around Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence £4 million have been achieved. how much money MOD Bicester has paid to (a) Palletways The correct answer should have been: (3PL Contract), (b) Pertemps Employment Agency and (c) City Sprint and other private couriers since the Peter Luff [holding answer 26 April 2011]: The total decision to implement the closure of regional distribution payments made to Palletways, Pertemps Employment centres; and if he will make a statement. [52538] Agency and private couriers (including City Sprint) [Official Report, 12 July 2011, Vol. 531, c. 1-2MC.] since late 2007 when the regional distribution centres were closed, are provided in the following table: Letter of correction from Peter Luff: A further error has been identified in the ministerial £ million correction given to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor FY2007-08 Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) on 12 July 2011. I regret that Company (3 months) FY2008-09 FY2009-10 Total because of an administrative error, the figures were incorrectly totalled. Palletways 0.547 1.917 2.134 4.598 Pertemps 0 3.439 2.731 6.170 The previous correction given was as follows: Private couriers 0.880 2.179 1.440 4.499 Peter Luff [holding answer 26 April 2011]: The total As a direct result of the decision to close the regional payments made to Palletways, Pertemps Employment distribution centres and centralise distribution activities Agency and private couriers (including City Sprint) at Bicester and Donnington with greater use of third since late 2007 when the regional distribution centres party logistics contractors, annual net savings of around were closed, are provided in the following table: £4 million have been achieved.

WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 11 August 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 119WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 121WS Public Disorder (Business Support) ...... 119WS Public Disorder (Community Support)...... 121WS PETITIONS

Thursday 11 August 2011

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITIONS PRESENTED PETITIONS—continued Access by Landlords ...... 13P Banking and Bankruptcy ...... 13P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 11 August 2011

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 1184W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Aircraft Carriers ...... 1184W continued Armed Forces: Gurkhas...... 1184W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 1162W Challenger Weapons ...... 1185W Departmental Consultants...... 1163W Defence Board ...... 1185W Departmental Legal Opinion ...... 1163W Defence: Procurement...... 1185W Departmental Lost Property ...... 1163W Departmental Air Travel ...... 1186W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1164W Departmental Correspondence ...... 1186W Departmental Photographs...... 1164W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1186W Departmental Procurement...... 1164W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 1187W Departmental Regulation...... 1165W Departmental Travel ...... 1187W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 1165W Equipment: Defence ...... 1188W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 1166W European Fighter Aircraft: Pilots ...... 1188W Departmental Training ...... 1166W Future Force 2020...... 1188W Dogs: Animal Welfare...... 1167W Libya...... 1189W Eggs: Imports...... 1167W Libya: Aircraft Carriers ...... 1189W Environment Agency: Manpower ...... 1168W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 1189W EU Grants and Loans...... 1168W Maritime Environment ...... 1190W Flooding: Reading West...... 1168W Mull of Kintyre Review ...... 1190W Food: Oils ...... 1168W Nimrod MRA4 Aircraft...... 1190W Food: Procurement ...... 1169W Redundancy...... 1190W Glass: Recycling...... 1170W Royal Air Force...... 1191W Hill Farming ...... 1170W South Sudan: Military Aid...... 1191W Hill Farming: Finance...... 1170W Special Air Service: Recruitment...... 1191W Houseboats ...... 1170W Sri Lanka ...... 1191W Ivory ...... 1171W Warrior Weapons ...... 1192W Landfill ...... 1172W Materials...... 1173W Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL 2006 ...... 1173W AFFAIRS...... 1148W Primates: Pets...... 1173W Access to Work Programme ...... 1148W Procurement...... 1173W Apprentices...... 1149W Recycling ...... 1174W Bed Bugs...... 1149W Reservoirs ...... 1174W Biodiversity...... 1149W Rights of Way...... 1175W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 1150W Rivers: Chalk Streams...... 1175W British Sky Broadcasting...... 1151W Rivers: Kayakers ...... 1175W Butterflies ...... 1151W Rural Areas...... 1176W Carbon Emissions...... 1154W Rural Communities Policy Unit ...... 1176W Carbon Emissions: Landfill ...... 1154W Rural Development Programme...... 1176W Carbon Emissions: Waste ...... 1155W Rural Development Programme: Yorkshire and Cattle: Transport...... 1155W the Humber...... 1177W Coastal Areas: Environment Protection...... 1155W Satellites: Technology...... 1177W Community Composting...... 1156W Sewage: Waste Disposal ...... 1178W Countryside ...... 1157W Sustainable Development: EU Action...... 1179W Crops: Research ...... 1158W Trade Unions ...... 1179W Departmental Air Travel ...... 1158W Waste ...... 1179W Departmental Allowances...... 1157W Waste Management...... 1179W Departmental Billing ...... 1157W Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— JUSTICE...... 1204W continued Lancaster Farms Young Offender Institution: Water Companies...... 1180W Health Services ...... 1204W Wood: Recycling ...... 1180W Yorkshire Dales National Park ...... 1181W LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 1147W Departmental Air Travel ...... 1147W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 1147W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1203W Saudi Arabia...... 1203W TRANSPORT ...... 1182W British Sky Broadcasting...... 1182W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 1183W HEALTH...... 1192W Motor Vehicles: Insurance ...... 1183W British Sky Broadcasting...... 1192W Motorways: Wildlife ...... 1183W Cancer: Drugs...... 1192W Care Homes: Insolvency ...... 1192W TREASURY ...... 1147W Mental Health Services: Greater London...... 1193W Business: Loans...... 1147W Mental Illness: Offenders ...... 1193W Nuclear Power: Finance ...... 1148W Palliative Care...... 1194W Pensions...... 1148W Physiotherapy: Fees and Charges ...... 1194W Prostate Cancer: Screening...... 1195W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1181W Radiotherapy: Finance...... 1196W Disability: Young People...... 1181W Social Services: Finance ...... 1196W Employment Services: British Sign Language ...... 1182W Social Services: Manpower...... 1197W Housing Benefit: Disability...... 1182W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 11 August 2011

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not later than Thursday 18 August 2011

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CONTENTS

Thursday 11 August 2011

Public Disorder [Col. 1051] Statement—(The Prime Minister)

Global Economy [Col. 1106] Statement—(Chancellor of the Exchequer)

Public Disorder [Col. 1131] General debate

Petitions [Col. 13P]

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 119WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1147W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 13MC]