264 264(ASSEMBLY] vehicles by which he can raise issues: The Ad- irg$stuttue Anoemblg d ress-i n-Reply and pri vate me mbers' day. 1 do not imagine that the Address-in-Reply Thursday, 22 August 1985 will cease to be the main business of the day for some little time. Obviously there is not a great THE SPEAKER (Mr Harman) took the deal of legislation on the Notice Paper as yet. We have undertaken to give the Opposition Chair at 10.45 a.m., and read prayers. at least a week's adjouniment in order to be 'lble to study Bills. Thus I would imagine that the STANDING ORDER NO. 35 main business next week would be the Ad- dress-in-Reply, interrupted perhaps mainly by Suspension private members' business on Wednesday. MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Leader of the Thus, this change represents a more flexible House) [10.47 am.]: I move- dealing with the business of the House. It That Standing Order 35 be suspended means that if the Government has a lot of busi- insofar as it is necessary to enable any ness if can be dealt with. If as I suspect most of business to be dealt with before the Ad- the business before the House over the next few dress-in-Reply has been adopted. weeks is private members' business or debate on the Address-in-Reply we will, of course, deal A motion is moved in respect of particular Bills mainly with that. Thus, the motion with which it is desired to deal. When I came to would give us flexibility in handling the business of the this place we could not deal with as much House. Government business -as we do now before the Address-in-Reply was adopted. The con- I will continue to consult with the member servative Government of Sir Charles Court nominated by the Opposition to speak on its changed the Standing Orders to permit us to go behalf in these matters, the Deputy Leader of as far as we go now; namely, to take Bills to the Opposition. On Tuesday we resumed our their second reading stage. normal weekly meetings and I believe that is a good thing. On one occasion the Opposition moved 13 amendments to the Address-in-Reply. That Mr Thompson: Did he agree to th is? meant that the Address-in-Reply then went on Mr TONKIN. Well, the Deputy Leader of for months while other business of the House the Opposition did not say he agreed to it. I was held up. It is important to remember that certainly mentioned it on Tuesday morning while private members have a very important and he did not comment either way. function in this House, so too does the Govern- Mr Clarko: You are not trying to suggest that ment and its Ministers. This motion will pro- he agreed? vide that, as with other Parliaments in Australia, the Address-in-Reply will be dealt Mr TON KIN: No, I am saying that I with periodically depending on the pressure of mentioned it and no comment was made. I am Government business. not sure that the conversations I hold with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition on these mat- A big advantage will be given to the Oppo- ters should be discussed in this place. I do not sition by my motion. It will mean that as from know what the Deputy Leader of the Oppo- next Wednesday there will be private members' sition thinks of this matter. business. Members will be aware that normally there is no private members' business until the Mr Hassell: We are not suggesting that either, Address-in-Reply is adopted. That is fair but you did raise this point. enough because the Address-in-Reply in a sense Mr TONKIN: Yes, that we had met. I think is purely private members' business. The Op- it is good to meet regularly and obviously, as position as from next Wednesday will have pri- the member for Karrinyup has implied by his vate members' day when motions such as the interjection, if one of us thinks we have one of which the Leader of the Opposition has reached an understanding and that understand- already given notice may be dealt with. No ing is believed to have been broken the conver- doubt other private members will come to this sations we have will be aired in public. I have House and give notice of other motions with no doubt that if I come to this place thinking which they will want dealt on the Wednesday. we have an agreement and that agreement Thus private members' day will come to this breaks down or if the Deputy Leader of the House many weeks or even months earlier than Opposition is of the same opinion, the conver- has been the case. As a consequence, the Oppo- sations will be aired in this place. I suppose sition or any private member will have two that is inevitable. [Thursday, 22 August 1985]16 265

We believe the proposal will streamline the nothing more or less than an attempt to stifle procedures of the House. It will bring private debate in this House and in particular to over- members' business to the House quicker than ride the interests and the rights of private would otherwise occur. It is a more flexible use members in this Parliament. of the business of the House and it is in accord- ance with the way in which the Address-in- For the information of members of the Reply is treated in all other Parliaments House, the first the Opposition knew about this operating under the Westminster system, not matter was when it was published in The West just in Australia but elsewhere. In some places Australian on 20 August. That is the sort of it is provided that the Address-in-Reply will consultation we have had in relation to it. I come on at a certain time on a certain day, but read about it in the newspaper, as did the not necessarily every day. In other places the Leader of the Opposition and others. system is that certain subjects are addressed at certain times in the Address-in-Reply debate; We have covered these matters in debates in perhaps one day the topic nominated is edu- the Parliament previously. If the Parliament is cation, for example. to have a proper working arrangement, as I believe it has had in recent times, that is largely The Government has opted for the third achieved by arrangements made behind the system and this provides that the Address-in- Chair between the respective members who Reply can be moved into and out of business in have responsibility for the management of Par- the same way as other business of the House. liament. That system has worked very well. We believe it is the most flexible way of dealing with this situation because it means that if It seems to me that this move by the Govern- there is a dearth of Government business the ment is nothing more or less than a slap in the Address-in-Reply can be used. Alternatively, if face for the Opposition and the institution of there is a lot of Government business, the Ad- Parliament. It shows the Government's appar- dress-in-Reply will not be called upon so often. ent lack of respect for the system of Parliament It should be borne in mind that there is a safe- and in this case for the Opposition. The guard against private members not having any Government is saying that the Opposition can- time apart from their interest in certain Bills not be trusted or relied upon, yet when we and that is the fact that private members' busi- consider the facts it has not given any justifi- ness comes on next Wednesday, which is weeks cation whatsoever for this move. or months earlier than would normally be the case. Let us consider the performance of this Par- MR MacKINNON (Murdoch-Deputy liament since the Burke Labor Government Leader of the Opposition) [10.56 a.m.1: The was elected and we have been in Opposition. Opposition The Leader of the House rightly said that in will not be supporting the moti on. 1983 we moved many amendments to the Ad- In order that members understand quite clearly what we are about to do, I will read to the dress-in-Reply. During the Address-in-Reply Parliament Standing Order No. 35- debate at that time I I Bills passed through this house with the agreement of both sides. The Bills may be introduced and taken to the Leader of the House has not given one stage that the motion "That the Bill be example-and cannot because there is no now read a second time" has been moved example to give-of instances where the Oppo- before the Address-in-Reply to the sition frustrated the Government in its wish to Governor's Speech has been adopted, but get on with the business of the House while at no other business beyond that which is of a the same time protecting the rights of individ- formal character shall be entered upon. ual members to express their points of view Provided, however, that the introduction when they had the opportunity to do so within of Bills under this Standing Order shalt not the debate. prevent any discussion on the subject mat- ter of any such Bill during the Address-in- If we want to move 23 amendments, that is Reply debate. our right under the parliamentary system. The You, Mr Speaker, having been in this Parlia- Minister is running scared this side of the elec- ment longer than 1, would be aware that the tion; he does not want to be put under the tradition in this Parliament is that the Address- hammer. If he wants to say something the Min- in-Reply is one of the few occasions on which ister should get to his feet. He had the oppor- private members can raise any matter whatso- tunity when we were talking about rural issues ever. Therefore, this move can be seen as which affected him and he stayed plumb square 266 266[ASSEMBLY] on his seat; he did not have the courage to get Mr Tonkin: What about private members' up and defend the people he is supposed to day next Wednesday? represent. Mr MacKINNON: The Minister asks, "What Mr Evans: Where were you? about private members' day next Wednesday Mr MacKINNON: I was here. The Minister or the Wednesday after?" He well knows that spoke on Wednesday, but he did not speak when members opposite were in Opposition, as when it really counted on Tuesday night, and I when we are in Opposition, on private mem- am sure the people of Western Australia, and bers' day the custom is, by and large, to deal the farming community in particular, will be with issues which the Opposition wants to ad- interested to hear about his failure to represent dress at any particular time, not issues that their viewpoint. private members might want to address. In 1983 11 Bills passed through the Parlia- While it is called private members' day, by ment. and large it is the province of the Opposition to Mr Evans: There were 13 amendments. address issues at that time. It is not a day when Mr MacKINNON: Why should members not individual backbench members from either the move 13 amendments to the Address-in-Reply Government or the Opposition side have the if they want to? ability to get up and speak about any other issues whatsoever. The only other opportunity Mr Evans: If the amendments are required. for that is the Budget debate, and sometimes Mr MacKINNON: Here is a Minister of the the Supply debate, though that is rarely used. Parliament indicating to us quite clearly what this motion is about. This motion is about So there are two opportunities for members stifling the rights of private members to rep- to represent their viewpoints in an aggressive resent a point of view which might be critical of and active way, but the Government does not the Government, and the Government in this want that to happen; it wants its business to lead-up to the election period is not prepared to take priority. It is not prepared to listen to the face the heat and be put under the microscope points of view represented on this side of the and defend its point of view for fear it might House by members representing Western lose ground in the public eye. Australians who have real concern about the Government. What was the performance in 1984? 1 have already indicated that in 1983 we co-operated Let Me return to the report in The West and I I Bills passed through the Parliament Australian of 20 August and point out how mis- during the Address-in-Reply. None was frus- leading that statement was. It started off- trated. The Government was not frustrated, it The State Government is seeking to was allowed to get on with its business by speed up the passage of legislation through agreement. Parliament. What happened in 1984? In 1984, the open- ing day of the last Parliament was on 25 July. I have already indicated that in 1983, 1t Bills The Address-in-Reply debate ceased and in passed through this Parliament by agreement. fact None was held up and none will be held up this passed out of this House on 7 August. No Bills time if we sit down and have passed through the House in that time, but the a proper dis- Government would not have had any on the cussion about it in a gentleman-like way, as Notice Paper which could have got through any should be the case. So obviously nothing could more quickly anyway without giving the Oppo- be further from the truth. sition a week to study the legislation, and that Further on comes this statement attributed is our agreement in any event. to the Minister- The Address-in-Reply passed through the In previous years legislation has not Parliament in an orderly fashion. So as I come been passed in the lower House until the back to my point, the Leader of the House has Address-in-Reply debate has finished. given no indication that we have ever frus- trated the business of the Parliament in this That overlooks the facts, and does not mention debate. The Government has given no indi- the example of 1983 where I I Bills passed cation that private members have abused the through this Parliament before the Address-in- privileges extended to them. This move is Reply debate was finished. That was by agree- nothing more or less than an attempt to stifle ment. There has been no dispute and no con- the ability of private members to represent cern from either side about that process until their views before this Parliament. now, a few months away from the election. [Thursday, 22 August 1985J16 267 Further on there is a quotation- Our performance in the past proves just that. Mr Tonkin said: "But the previous The Government, of course, does not want to system resulted in unacceptable delays to do that. the passage of Government business". Fourthly, with respect to this legislation, the What passage of Government business? Can Minister says that private members will now be able to raise these issues if they want to. They the Leader of the House give us one example? will be able to raise them all right, but only at Not one example can be given,' so that the whim statement is nothing more or less than a of the Government. There is no guarantee whatsoever that private members straight out lie to the public of Western will be able to do so. Australia from the Leader of the House. The Leader of the House used examples from Mr Tonkin: What is a lie? Parliaments overseas where there are set times Mr MacKINNON: The Minister's statement to debate the Address-in-Reply, or at least there was that the previous system resulted in unac- are set subjects. No such guarantee exists under ceptable delays to the passage of Government this proposed motion. We revert to the status business. The Minister cannot indicate how quo; that is, where the Government determines this was so. It is nothing more or less than a lie. that business be debated- when, how, and Let the Minister give one example. why. Mr Tonkin: In 1983 there were over 100 The rights of the private member in this Par- speakers on the Address-in-Reply with 13 liament again have been abused in the worst amendments. If that is not "unacceptable de- possible form. The Opposition will oppose this like to know what is. particular move and will continue to oppose it lay" I would as long as we stand in this Parliament in Oppo- Mr MacKiNNON: I would like the Leader of sition. That will not be for long and when we the House to give one example where those are returned to Government, I can assure mem- speeches gave rise to a delay in Government bers on the other side of the House that we will legislation. not play tit for tat, nor will we play silly games Mr Tonkin: Of course it delayed us; we were with this Parliament. Rather we will respect the on the Address-in-Reply for months. institution and the Opposition of the day. Mr MacKINNON: We passed I I Bills Above all, we will respect the fact that the Op- through the Parliament by agreement, so which position under the Westminster system has issue did it delay? some privileges and rights which have been respected down through the years in the Ad- Mr Tonkin: Our whole legislative pro- dress-in-Reply debate and which have been de- gramme was held up. based and abused by this particular leader and Mr MacKINNON: Not one. The Minister his Government. has been caught out yet again. Why should the MR HASSELL (Cottesloe-Leader of the Government make this move at this stage? Opposition) [11. 11 a.m.]: When one considers Firstly, it is an indication that it has no respect this whole affair and the way in which it has for the forms of Parliament. Secondly, as I have been put up and presented, one must ask one- said before, the Government is obviously run- self why is it that the Government is doing ning scared this side of the election. It has done this? If one were in the position of the Premier its research, as have we, -and the Government is and the Government, one would have to think not in the best shape. If we use the Parliament about why this Government wants to get rid of to our advantage the Government will be in a longstanding Standing Order which provides serious trouble. It does not want to be put that the Address-in-Reply is to be dealt with under the hammer; it is scared we might be first except in the case of urgent business. Why able to do so and it is not prepared to face the would the Government want to do that? music. Mr Tonkin: To give private members more Thirdly, in this matter there has been a lack of common courtesy by the Government. It of a go. professes to want to run the Parliament in a Mr HASSELL: The Minister interjects to say gentlemanly and proper manner. It goes to the it is to give private members more of a go. I am public and says the Opposition is holding going to come to that, but I wanted to make things up. We have consistently said that we do sure the Minister's interjection went onto the not want this formality. If we go behind the Hansard record. It simply is not true that the chair we will arrive at an agreement and Parlia- Government wants to do this because it has ment will run in a proper, dignified manner. been hindered or hampered in some way that it 268 268ASSEM BLYJ can demonstrate in the passage of its legislative and wise saying, -Beware of Arthur Tonkin programmes. The Government has not been bearing gifts" because this Minister has never able to point to one item of Government busi- done anything to help private members' busi- ness, either last year or this year-or in any ness in this House. Goodness me, he has been a other year-which, where there was genuine party to a whole series of measures aimed at urgency, Government business was not put ensuring that that part of the Parliament is ab- through as required in advance of the Address- solutely dominated by the Government and in-Reply. that the business of private members is Neither the Minister, nor the Premier, nor lessened. If one looks at the next motion to any other Minister, can provide one example of allow an urgency debate, which, in a Parlia- an occasion where the Opposition would not ment which sits for fewer than six months of allow readily, without debate, without argu- the year, the Minister has put up for the third ment, Urgent Government business to go time, one will find this is of course, a guillotine through ahead of the Address-in-Reply. Of system. This Minister who is now telling the course the record shows not only that the House that he wants to introduce this provision Government has not experienced any difficulty to facilitate private members' business is the in a negative sense, but also that on occasions very man who introduced the guillotine pro- in the past 21/2 years it has had very positive cedure to this Parliament for the first time in co-operation from the Opposition in putting its history. through business that was genuinely of an ur- gent nature. We on this side of the House could Mr Tonkin: Thai is untrue. Sir Charles Court name two or three examples-one was about brought in a guillotine motion. fuel collection or something of that nature, and Mr HASSELL: Mr Tonkin says that this is there were several others in which matters had not the first time in the history of this Parlia- to be done to satisfy local government interests ment that such a motion has been introduced. and the interests of the wider community. This Parliament has never before had an estab- Thus it simply is not true that this is the case. lished, continuing guillotine system. It has had The Government is not in any way able to some particular cases in the past but it has demonstrate that it has ever been frustrated in never had this established system that this dealing with genuine urgent business before the Minister has introduced. Address-in-Reply. Why then does the Govern- ment want to bring in this motion? The Minis- if the Government is not introducing this ter interjected a few minutes ago to say that it motion because it has been thwarted in having was to give a better deal to private members. its business dealt with, and very clearly that is That, of course, is manifest nonsense. Why not the case, and if this Government is not does the Minister keep putting this story up? bringing it in to help private members-which Mr Tonkin: It is in order to deal with the obviously and clearly it is not, because it hin- business of private members. ders private members-I must ask myself why is it that the Leader of the House, on behalf of Mr HASSELL: if this motion is not passed, the Government, is introducing this measure. I this House will be able to hear the business of have wracked my brains to try to think what private membersall day, every day- possible reason could there be, what tactical Mr Tonkin: Only in a restricted fashion. ploy it is, that the Government is thinking of. Mr HASSELL- It will not be in a restricted Mr Hodge: You are just too suspicious. fashion, it will be in a completely unrestricted fashion. That is the very point that the Deputy Mr HASSELL: Yes, of course, I am sus- Leader of the Opposition made. The business picious. We have a Minister who is telling us all of private members on Wednesdays is now the time, "We are doing this to help you. I am dominated by particular issues whereas in the from the Government and I am here to help Address-in-Reply each private member has the put your head in this noose so that the Govern- opportunity to raise his own issues, whether ment may relieve the weight off your feet." they be related to his electorate or to other That is what is happening. That is what the matters. Minister is doing, although no-one from this if the Leader of the House starts talking of side of the House is asking him to do it. He is being concerned about the business of private saying. "Take this medicine, it is good for members, it will be the first time he has ever you." We on this side of the House do not want done so. I would just remind people of that old this medicine, we are not sick. In fact, we are [Thursday, 22 August 198 5] 2696 doing very well under the present system. All all the deadlines with the media have passed, the Minister wants to do is to relieve the weight the Address-in-Reply will then be brought on. I on our feet. wonder whether that might not be the truth Mr Brian Burke: Well, why don't you? behind this move, because it is the only poss- ible explanation apart from the other one I am Mr HASSELL: I know members on the other about to discuss. side of the Chamber would like me to, but I am entitled to have a few words and I would like to This is a process of manipulating the Parlia- finish my speech. It will not take too long. ment to disadvantage the Opposition, and its opportunities Mr H-odge: Cyril will probably challenge you to bring out the truth and to let, for the leadership next. the world see what is going on will be diminished even further. This is the first reason Mr HASSELL: Is that right? Let us come for this move, and it does carry some weight. back to asking a specific question: Why is it We will see from experience that every day we that the Government wants to do this? It will come into the House-and the Leader of the not help us and it does not help the Govern- House has made it quite clear that on Tuesdays ment with its business because we know-and and Wednesdays until 4.30 and on Thursdays the Hansardrecord will prove, and not a single it will be Government business that takes Government member can challenge it-that precedence-Government business will be over the years the Government has always had dealt with first; and when everyone is tired and complete co-operation from the Opposition, half the Government members have gone home and when it was the Opposition my recollec- because they are weary, the Address-in-Reply tion is that it gave us complete co-operation in will be thrown open for debate. This will also putting through genuinely urgent business happen further on in the session when the sit- ahead of the Address-in- Reply. tings go past I I p.m. This diminishes any op- Why is it that the Government is introducing portunity for us and Government members this motion? I can think of only two possible who are not on the front bench to speak on the reasons; maybe I am suspicious-the Minister Address-in-Reply, so those Government mem- for Health says I am suspicious-but I have bers should also be concerned. Even Govern- reason to be. The first of the reasons I refer to ment members have an interest in having a say is that the Government cannot really cut out about certain issues, even though they are not the Address-in-Reply, much as it would like to. always controversial ones. Those members are They would also like to get rid of the office of on the Government side, and it would not ex- the Governor-perhaps not the person of the pect its members to attack the Government; Governor, but certainly the office of Governor. but sometimes Government members wish to The Government could not get rid of the Ad- speak out about a matter which concerns them, dress-in-Reply. It is too much built-in to the and that gets them publicity. Therefore, mem- system. It is like Government House; it can be bers on the back bench are losing out by the diminished. The Government can make the motion as well. So the Government is not just Governor live somewhere else and it can re- taking away the Opposition's chances to move duce the status, the office, and the position of amendments and get publicity, it is also taking the Governor. Similarly, the Government can- away the opportunity for Government mem- not do away with the Address-in-Reply but the bers to have a say as well. traditional respect due to the Head of The other reason that strikes me as being State-and bear in mind that the Governor is important is that the Government may want to the representative of the Head of the State in bring to a head early in the session a dispute Western Australia-can be diminished by about a Bill that is not urgent. In other words, a taking away a Standing Order that has been in Bill that the Government would not be able to operation for decades. bring forward in the normal course of events And why might the Government do that? It ahead of the Address-in-Reply because it was does it so it can manipulate the business of the not urgent, it now wants to bring forward House to disadvantage the Opposition. it is quickly to bring a dispute to a head-for very simple because on all days except example, an electoral Bill or what the Minister Wednesday-and Wednesday has its own diffi- calls a "Parliamentary reform" Bill. There culties for the Opposition-we will have could be any number of reasons for this. it Government business proceeding into the might be that the Government wants a dispute middle of the evening and at about eight or over a Bill to come to a head with the Legislat- nine o'clock, when everyone is weary and when ive Council for the purpose of giving the 270 270[ASSEMBLY)

Premier an excuse to visit the Governor. In less than a Government trying to protect itself other words, what we are seeing today is a from embarrassing parliamentary scrutiny; and tactic by the Government to bring about a dis- the fact that his is happening at the commence- pute: to give it an excuse to say to the Governor ment of this Iasi sitting of this House before the that Parliament ought to have an election. Is election is no coincidence. this what the Premier 'will say to the people notwithstanding that he has crossed his heart When one thinks about it and asks oneself why the Government is doing and hoped to die that there will not be an elec- this, the Minister tion until next year? One has to wonder comes up with an absolutely dishonest answer of these reasons is valid. Is the which does not have any truth at all and says he whether either is doing it to help private members' business. Government simply trying to make sure that all and the Opposition in par- We realise that that is not an explanation at all. private members, I suggest it is purely to allow the Government ticular, are not able to bring forward their pri- vate members' business at a respectable hour of to manipulate the business of the House, to the day in Order to shuffle off the business until deny the Opposition a chance to move the Ad- late at night so hopefully the Address-in-Reply dress-in-Reply and to take away the capacity of 'will go away; the Opposition to test the Government in the or is it trying to create early in the Parliament in an effective way. As time goes on session, for reasons of timing, a dispute with in the Budget session, it will come too late the Legislative Council so it has an excuse to at ask the Governor to have an election notwith- night and everyone will be tired and say, "I will standing what the Premier has said about it? It speak only briefly," "I won't mention it," or "I is an interesting thought. won't bother." Mr Pearce: That is rubbish too! Mr Wilson: That happened under Sir Charles Several members interjected. Court. Mr Pearce: You are trying to get the member Mr HASSELL: The Address-in-Reply was for Nedlands to challenge the Leader of the never suspended under Sir Charles Court. Opposition. Mr Wilson: You were talking about the Mr MacKinnon: I would read the Teachers Budget. Union journal. Mr HASSELL: I was talking about both. Mr Clarko: "No Minister". As I said, the other reason may well be that Mr HASSELL: He is no Minister! The truth the Government wants to bring to a head very is that members on the Government side of the early in the session a dispute with the upper House are not allowed to make a challenge to House over some electoral or parliamentary the leader- Wait until "Dashing" Dowding gets legislation so that it can beat a drum for elec- down here. He is the man who has decided to toral purposes. be Premier- Mr Tonkin: Do you really think we would This motion is most improper and com- consider changing our leader? pletely out of place. We very vigorously and strenuously oppose it. Mr HASSELL: This is a serious motion 'which throws aside established procedures of MR CLARKO (Karrinyup) [1t1.31 a.m.): I respect to the representative of the Head of think members can find no greater evidence, State, the Governor, and through him to the certainly no political evidence, of a Govern- Queen herself. Those procedures have been ment running scared than when it openly seeks honoured in the Parliament since it was estab- to stifle the Opposition. This Government has lished, and the Parliament has given that re- not yet taken steps to close down Parliament, spect which is due. We have an opening of but this attempt to publicly tamper with the Parliament, and an address of respect to the parliamentary system is a very low point in this Queen's representative is then moved, debated, Government's shabby record. and delivered; and Parliament then gets on Through this motion the Government is with its Other business. taking the unprecedented step of removing the As has been pointed out, there has never Opposition's traditional rights associated with been a refusal Of Co-operation in respect of ur- the Add ress-i n- Reply, where the Address-in- gent business. The Government is not able to Reply takes precedence over other business, a point to any difficulty with its legislative pro- right which has endured in this State since the gramme. When it is looked at, it is no more or beginning of our Parliament over 90 years ago. (Thursday, 22 August 198S]27 271

This precedent quite logically provides an House: The rights of backbenchers, the rights opportunity for Governments which have ur- of private members, have been increasingly gent or important issues they want dealt with to curtailed. have those matters considered whenever it is There is no need for this motion because a deemed necessary. So the present system does perfect opportunity exists--one which has been allow Government business to take precedence used before with the support of the Opposition, over the Address-in -Reply. It has always of whatever political colour as far as I can provided the opportunity for a Government to gather, on every occasion over the last 12 introduce measures which it feels need to be years-for the Parliament to deal with matters dealt with straightaway. that need to be dealt with straightaway. This has occurred at the same time as the I cannot recall any occasion in the 2'/2 years precedence of the Address-in-Reply has been that we have been in Opposition when we have ever voted against this Government's trying to preserved. take that step of placing some of its own busi- I might add that in the life of this Burke ness ahead of the Address-in-Reply. Further, Government we should have had three Ad- from memory I cannot remember the Labor dress-in-Reply debates but I believe we have Party in Opposition here between 1974 and had just two, so this has been another way the 1983 ever seeking to prevent the Governments Government has moved to get rid of the Ad- of Sir Charles Court and Ray O'Connor from dress-in-Reply. Perhaps it was just bad man- proceeding with business they felt was appro- agement of the operation of the Parliament. priate for discussion before completion of the This morning the Leader of the House made Address-in-Reply. So, in the 12 years I have no effort to put forward a logical argument in been a member of Parliament I can recall no support of the need for this motion. He offered example of an Opposition, irrespective of its no examples. He gave us a page which told us political colour, ever seeking to interfere when what legislation was to come before the Parlia- a Government has wanted to bring forward a ment. It does not seem to me that if any of matter it considered important and urgent and those measures were wanted to be brought for- requiring to be dealt with forthwith. ward early because they were considered im- portant, we would oppose the move. Here we have "Artie Jackboots", acting in Majorities must rule, but minorities must the way he has acted ever since he has been have rights. That is what the Parliament is al Leader of the House, taking up the cudgels and trying to smnash all the privileges of Parliament about. one by one. This man, whom I do not think has Mr Rushton: He doesn't even want to l isten. any shame, would if he did be totally destroyed Mr CLARKO: No, he has fled the Chamber. if he could look in the mirror honestly and The way things are going reminds me of a realise what he has done to free speech for story being told that with workers seeking members of this Parliament. shorter and shorter working weeks, the event- In Australian society today we are going ual extension of the argument is that the pay- through a phase where people are pressing very master will soon be bringing around the workers' pay to their homes every fortnight. strongly on the issue of human rights' If free- What we are seeing here, if by some complete dom of speech is not the first of those rights, something is wrong with these human aberration the Government should manage to rights-and I feel there is a great deal wrong creep over the line at the next elec- with the human ights programme espoused by tion-although the polls show that it will and others. It reached not-is that in a year or two, every Friday we the Federal Labor Panty a copy of the Votes and Proceed- the stage where they locked the doors on the will be sent Federal Opposition's spokesman on this mat- ings. The Government will not bother having ter. us come to the Parliament to say something on behalf of the people in the community we rep- At this time in the mid-1980s when equal resent. rights are trumpeted forth by this Government, The Leader of the House, in his fatuous style, we find no equal ights in this Chamber. What has made comments indicating that this move has happened here would be obvious to anyone will give the Opposition greater flexibility. who has witnessed and carefully analysed what What absolute nonsense. H-e said that he would has taken place during the last two years of the consult with us. But when someone asked him Burke Government under this Leader of the a question when he was speaking he said, "I 272 272ASSEMBLY) don't think 1 should really say what goes on most important Bill, on local government be- between myself and the Opposition member in fore us and we had just 35 minutes to deal with charge of the business of the House; that is a 70 or SO clauses. We had managed to deal with private matter." However, when it suited him perhaps the first 20. last year he spilt the whole lot because he found it to his benefit. He was then prepared to state Mr Camr We asked you how long you wanted what had gone on between himself and his Op- and you said nine hours; we gave it to you and position counterpart. then you tried to filibuster. Mr MacKinnon: There wasn't too much con- Mr CLARKO: I do not believe that that was sultation before he brought this measure here. the case at all, and I have said this before. Each Mr CLARKO: It was probably 14 March member from this side of the House who spoke 1984 when my colleague last heard about a set on that Bill had a special interest in that mat- of changes. ter. We witness a jack boot approach and we are Mr Tonkin: A lack of discipline! given just five minutes' notice before these Mr CLARKO: In my time, I have heard a lot changes are brought in. After all, we are only on about waffling. I heard the Leader of the to the third working day of Parliament and House-I think when he was in this very place here we are finding that our right to speak is, in the House-speak for over five hours. once again, shattered. The Leader of the House is the man, representing the Burke Govern- Mr Tonkin: I was over there. menit, who has introduced the five minute Mr CLARKO: I wondered why the carpet speech to this Parliament. Mr Speaker, in five was worn out! minutes one could hardly mention your name if one were a slow speaker or had a bit of a Mr Tonkin: I spoke on electoral matters. stutter. But five minute speeches are being Mr CLARKO: The Leader of the House does given to the Parliament under the jack boot not give us any justice whatsoever. He brings in style of the Government's so-called time man- a rule that we can speak for five minutes on one agement, when it brings in new rules and the aspect of our parliamentary rules today. In re- Opposition members wish to move an amend- gard to the Local Government Amendment Bill menit. which dealt with adult franchise and very im- I challenge the Leader of the House to portant areas of rating, I understand our produce to me evidence where any other Par- spokesman spoke briefly about orchardists and liament in the world has these five minute so on. I think it was about clause 40, and there speeches. I could then check to see how much was no further discussion because no time was democracy exists in those countries, particu- allowed for us to discuss the very critical issue larly on a matter as important as this and par- of rating, an issue which had been around for ticularly where the Leader of the House here years. The debate was pushed through after the has so grossly mismanaged these matters since Minister had agreed to accept an amendment he first introduced the time management on that matter. Of the remaining 70 or SO scheme. clauses of the Bill we dealt with only about the I give as an example a local government first 20, except for a few minutes spent on the amendment Bill which dealt principally with amendment. The other 60 clauses received no adult franchise. I consider that Bill to have debate whatsoever. been one of the most significant pieces of legis- Mr Tonkin: No discipline! lation brought before the Parliament. Mr CLARKO: We had no third reading de- Mr Carr: It was significant. bate. I am speaking about the local government Mr CLARKO: We say that it was significant, area in which I am especially involved, but I too, but for different reasons. However, for the am sure other members of the Opposition Committee stage and the third reading stage we could bring up other areas in which this were given, from memory, just 35 minutes in happened; where the Government has used the which to comment. Mr Speaker, I put it to you jack boot, a boot on the throat. That is the sort that when the motion was passed for the third of treatment we have received since the Leader reading, we were two minutes over time. Some of the House has been in office. Members can people might have questioned your ruling. But imagine when the Opposition returns to the that is how encapsulated the system was. We Government benches in about March next year had one of the most important Bills, if not the how the then Opposition will squeal if we ever [Thursday, 22 August 1985]27 273 try to move for a gag. Mr Speaker, you will hear Leader who has abused this House more than their squeals out at the Maylands Bowling has any other Leader of the House in history. I Club! think his speech was the longest, except per- Mr Blaikie: I think the Speaker will hear haps for Herbie Graham, but at least Herbie them from wherever he might happen to be at Graham was an outstanding speaker. The next that time. step that follows will be that 30-minute speeches will be reduced to 20-minute Mr CLARKO: This five-minute time limit is speeches, and so on. one example of how the Opposition's rights have been trampled upon. The other example is As has been mentioned already by one of my in regard to ordinary members speaking in this colleagues, the back bench member of the Op- House. They have always had the right to speak position, who has already had his time on the majority of mqtters, certainly important shortened, has very few opportunities these matters, for 45 minutes. Under -the reign of this days to talk about matters which some people Leader of the House, our time has been cut to like to dismiss as parochial, but matters which 30 minutes, with the exception of Budget de- are very important to the member concerned. bates. Lead speakers have longer times- They are important to the area of Western Australia-perhaps a remote area-which the Mr Tonkin: Unlimited. member represents, and to his constituents Mr CLARKO: -but the time of the ordinary who may wish to have a voice on certain issues. member of this House wI be cut. A member had 50 per cent time more than he will now. Under the leadership of the Leader of the We now move to the situation where this House that right has been taken away from us. Leader of the House and his colleagues are Initially the process was a bit slow, but it is seeking to crush the predominance of the Ad- getting faster and faster as this giant cannonball dress-in-Reply to give the Government the op- rolls down the hill. Eventually the Leader of the pontunity, which we responsibly have always House will finish up underneath it, and right at agreed to, of bringing forward any matter it the end it will crush him as he tries to crush us, thinks important. as he tries to take away from us this right, this fairness, this opportunity to speak for a reason- Mr Tonkin: You will have private members' able time. day next Wednesday, much earlier than nor- mal. I notice the Government is about to intro- duce a Bill which will allow people such as Mr CLARKO: This Leader of the House will Moslems to use their surnames in different go down in the history of this Parliament for places. I wonder whether this is because a his jack booted approach. I tremble as I sit couple of regiments of Pakistani soldiers, here. I am quite a biggish fellow and I do not brought in by the Leader of the House, will tremble easily, but I tremble-I trembled last come charging in, after the modern-day Charles Saturday at around 5.00 p.m. too-when I hear I, through those doors and police this new that eastern end Chamber door rattle, because I Pakistan. That is what is happening here. wonder whether a modem day King Charles I will come through it with his soldiers-just like Mrs Buchanan: The member certainly has a in 1642-and the Leader of the House, wigless, vivid imagination. unlike Charles I, will come and move in his Mr CLARKO: What are the supermarket soldiers or the WA Police Force to prevent our prices like up your way? speaking ever again. Obviously he was trying to Mr Hassell: What about the price of fuel? tell my leader to be quiet when he was speak- ing. We only have a 20-minute speech period Several members interjected. now, but perhaps we could go for five minute The SPEAKER: Order! speeches all the time. Mrs Beggs: Our constituents are not worried Mr Tonkin: Would you like that? about supermarket prices. Mr CLARKO: It is probably just around the Mr CLARKO: I am sure the member could corner, and we will all be out playing bowls. We tell us what they are worried about. The Leader will not be like Sir Francis Drake, but warships of the House could have brought in a time will be coming down the channel! Warships are management programme in a reasonable way. coming down the channel now, because any However, he did so in an unreasonable way, as serious student of the parliamentary or politi- I have explained, in relation to the Local cal process must be absolutely destroyed by yet Government Amendment Bill. We were not another act being played out today by this given a fair amount of time, and that proves 274 274[ASSEMBLY] the nature of the beast. The Leader of the Leader of the House likes to talk a great House is not in the business of giving us fair deal-will prevail and once again our voice will ime. be silenced. There is a place in the Parliament for a If this motion is passed, people like myself rationalisation of the time that is spent on wilt have great trouble in getting our point of legislation, and the Leader of the House uses view heard. When we return to Government in those arguments when he speaks from time to the near future I assure members opposite-as time-although he did not use too many the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy today-to defend the argument that we should Leader have said-that we will not treat mem- streamline the parliamentary process and so bers of the present Government in the same on. Of course, if this particular measure is way. They will be given a fair opportunity to contained in the Standing Orders, that is the speak, because that is the difference between end of it. That is "ta ta" to us. Our right to US. speak will be severely curtailed. This move only works against us. MR JAMIESON (Welshpool) [ 11.51 a.m.]:- The Government is running scared. It wants We have listened this morning to the Oppo- to get out of Parliament and it wants us to say sition flushing niggers out of all sorts of wood- the least amount possible. Freedom of speech is piles around the place, including several bat- a privilege, says Erskine May, a privilege which talions of soldiers from Pakistan. I do not is essential to every free council or Legislature. think, however, Opposition members have made a very convincing argument. MrT Tonkin: Hear, hear! That is why we put it forward. One of the things I hope I leave this Parlia- ment with is a better way of dealing with busi- Mr CLARKO: That is not what we have got ness than that which prevailed when I came here. I warn all members of this House, every into the Parliament. I sat through many time members hear the door at the eastern end sessions and had the unedifying experience of of the Chamber rattle, to have a look in case seeing people priming the parish pump day and the soldiers or the police are coming night and forcing members of the Press Gal- through-i 1642 reborn! lery, who might report them, to retire elsewhere Again I remind members of this House of the to drink stubbies or cans or whatever they do importance of the Opposition in the when they are not in the gallery. They were not Westminster system. It is a tremendous system. achieving anything. Its real strength is the rights that it gives to the The Leader of the Opposition was growling Opposition to speak in a fair way, to give the that as a result of th is proposed procedure Opposition a reasonable amount of time in some Address-in-Reply speeches might be which to deal with their business. That is the brought on late at night when there are no Press quintessence of the Westminster system. It reporters present. The fact is that most gives the people's representatives the right to speak and speeches on the Address-in-Reply are not does not allow the majority to domi- reported because they are not newsworthy. nate, rule, and crush. They are parish-pump stuff which some mem- We could look at time management pro- bers want to have recorded for their own elec- cedures in other ways, but the Leader of the torate purposes. That is their responsibility, House, both in a theoretical and practical way, but it is certainly not the wish of the people of has shown that all he dues is abuse this right this State to have their Parliament working, and privilege to speak. The floor of the House sometimes for six weeks, with nary an amend- is the essence of where this privilege or right to ment to an Act of Parliament being brought speak must predominate, which is why I keep forward. referring to the opening of the door at the east- ern end of the Chamber! Members must have Only a few years ago we altered Standing the right to stand up and speak, and to say what Orders to allow Bis to be introduced and needs to be said. explained- MrT Tonkin: We will defend your right to do Mr MacKinnon: Why have Standing Orders that at all if we are going to move them aside? Mr CLARKO: So when we come to the end Mr JAMIESON: Just a minute! The Deputy of the day, the brutality of numbers-in a Leader of the Opposition has had his say, and I sense, that is the democracy about which the was quiet while he spoke. [Thursday, 22 August 1985]27 275

We amended the Standing Orders for the him and there would be no need for him to be purpose of allowing Bills to be introduced and here because we already know what he is going explained, and it made a big difference to pro- to say. He is not achieving anything; he is fool- cedure. Prior to that, after sitting here for ing himself by going on in that way. weeks-and both sides of the political spec- Mr Mensaros: It compensates for the trum did it when in Government-business got Dorothy Dix questions no further than a few notices of Bills being from Government given. When finally the Address-in-Reply col- members. lapsed or finished there was no business to pro- Mr JAMIESON: Of course that change was ceed with. The next day there would be a rush brought about by changing times. At one time of second reading speeches, and the Opposition every member used to get up and ask a ques- naturally was not very keen to proceed tion of the Minister despite the fact that the immediately. So there was a hiatus and we had question was on notice. That was done in to wait until the Opposition had time to study another place until recently. Then the Minister the Bills and catch up with the situation so that replied to the question. The procedure was Parliament could proceed. streamlined so that questions on notice were answered by the Minister without the member That sort of thing had to be changed, and we having to ask them. What ruined that was that saw the necessity to do it at that time. If as a the member result of this motion the new procedure for Dale when he was a Minister proves used to get up and give chapter and verse in his to be a success, undoubtedly whoever is in answers, and he went on and on. Even his own Government in future would be very foolish if members got tired of that. They did not want he did not take up the cudgels and amend him to continue in that way, so the procedure Standing Orders so this procedure could con- had to be changed. Whether it has been tinue. changed for the better or worse I would not say. What is wrong with the procedure that is It is up to members asking questons to raise adopted in the Budget debate? In that case, whenever a debate needs to be brought on, the sensible queries. Very often they lead with their chin and they get what they deserve. That is Government proceeds with other business. particularly so with questions without notice. There may only be a couple of speeches on the Budget at one particular time. I do not see any Members try to flush out niggers in the wood- pile; they have found something which is a reason except tradition for the Address-in-Re- half-truth and they float it in the Chamber, and ply having great priority, and tradition has to they do not like it when they get knocked be altered to suit circumstances. Why should down. people sit here for weeks with nothing more to do than listen and yawn at the speeches made We live in a changing world and we must by various members about their own bring change into the legislative Chambers. constituencies? This motion is an attempt to overcame some in recent times private members have been problems which the present Government can see. As the Minister pointed out as a result of given more opportunities to speak in certain this motion private members will have greater circumstances; for instance, it was not long ago that grievance debates were introduced each opportunities to raise business far earlier than in previous sessions when they have had to fortnight. That has been an advantage to mem- wait for the Address-in-Reply to finish. bers who wanted to make a short speech on a difficult subject. So it is not all one way, and I suggest we get Mr Rushton: Speeches on the Address-in-Re- away from the 1642 mentality displayed by the ply have been reduced from 45 minutes to 30 member for Karrinyup and bring in something minutes. that is modernistic in its outlook. We will achieve what we are sent here to do-to legis- Mr JAMIESON: Of counte, and so they late and change the laws where we deem it should be because people often forget what the necessary. former member for Boulder used to say: "If you have not struck oil in 10 minutes, stop I support the motion. boring." Far too many of us in this Chamber MR MENSAROS (Floreat) (11.59 am.]: do not heed that advice. Members go on and Like almost every Parliament in the world our on, and the member for Dale is typical of them. own I-ouse has its traditions. It has many tra- lHe goes on ad nauseam and repeats himself so ditions which have developed along the way, many times that we could make his speech for and if anyone listens to the attendants showing 276 276[ASSEMBLY]

schoolchildren or other groups through Parlia- The claim that Government business is being ment House one hears them talking mainly held up is false. That was a claim only to justify about those traditions. the moving of this motion by the Minister. It is Even the Australian Labor Party adheres to absolutely untrue. He may be able to cite one some of the traditions of Parliament, albeit re- example when 23 amendments were luctantly or when it suits it. Oddly enough, in introduced in the Address-in-Reply debate. many cases, it keeps half of the traditions, for However, if one examines Address-in-Reply whatever reason. However, I suspect it is to debates generally one will find that there was placate the newly and temporarily acquired no delay in the business of the House. Indeed supporters in St George's Terrace and, at the following the Address-in-Reply debate in which same time, not to neglect its traditional sup- 23 amendments were moved-I take the Min- porters in the unions. You, Mr Speaker, have ister's word for it-in the following year the adopted half of the traditions of Parliament by Address-in-Reply debate collapsed and we were retaining the gown and not wearing the wig. I sent home until the Government could find wonder when we will reach the stage that the legislation for the Parliament to debate. The mace will be cut in half. We should all recog- Government had not prepared any business nise that many of our parliamentary traditions and the House had to be adjourned until are embedded in the Standing Orders.- Government business was prepared. It is not true,' therefore, to say that the business of the We could well wonder why Standing Order was its origin? Only one House is being delayed. Generally, there has No. 35 is there. What been no inconvenience or delay to the Govern- speaker, the Leader of the Opposition, said and ment. acknowledged that the Standing Order originated from the appropriate homage and To some extent, the fear that the business courtesy that should be paid to the Governor. might be held up is the Government's own He represents the Monarch, the Head of State. doing. I would be the first to admit that the Anybody who stopped to think would also very substantial change introduced by Hon. realise that. It is difficult to know whether the John Tonkin was a very good one. Members motion was introduced out of ignorance or might recall that, until that time, the Address- whether it was introduced deliberately. Either in-Reply and the opening of Parliament by the way, it is a slap in the face for the Governor in Governor were held in the Budget session in his capacity of representative of the Head of July-August. Premier Tonkin introduced the State. system that the Governor opens Parliament at Mr Jamieson: That is a lot of nonsense. the beginning of the calendar year except for the first sitting after an election when, tra- Mr MENSAROS: It is not a lot of nonsense. ditionally, there is no autumn session. The It is all tied up with the Labor Party trying to change was introduced to divide the two sit- abolish half the traditions of this Parliament. tings of the session. It gave private members The Government could have achieved the and Government back-benchers the oppor- same result had it moved to abolish Standing tunity to speak on any subject they wished. Order No. 35. It has the numbers to do that, as Government back-benchers are fairly muffled this matter will not go to the Legislative Coun- by their parties these days and do not have the cil. It has not done so because, along with the opportunity to speak out on many occasions. Speaker's wig and the gown, it wanted to keep Of course, the Opposition is given this great half of the traditions to reassure its newly-ac- opportunity to speak about any matter during quired supporters in St George's Terrace that the Address-in-Reply debate and Budget de- it is prepared, at least, to appear to observe bate. Obviously, Premier Tonkin realised that some traditions. it was not convenient for the Government to Moving on to other more significant aspects have two lengthy "free" debates in one session. of the motion, I remind the Minister that it is He therefore introduced the change which customary in this place for genuinely urgent became the tradition of having the Address-in- Government business to take precedence even Reply debate in the autumn session and the over the Address-in-Reply debate. That has Budget debate in the spring session. been the custom in order to enable the Govern- ment of the day to Proceed with genuinely ur- That presumably also was done for the gent Government business. That matter has reason that many Bills are numbered with the never been rejected or debated by this House. I same number in the same calendar year. cannot think of its ever having been any- Premier Tonkin's proposal alleviated the thing else than a rule by general consensus. Government's anxiety about Government busi- [Thursday, 22 August 19851 2777 ness not being debated in time. Yet the present they were indeed very rare. When the previous Government upset even this tradition, Government was in power this type of question introduced by a Labor Premier, which we kept was not the order of the day. However, it ap- for nine years. pears that it has now been incorporated as the I suggest that the Government should have custom. recovered from its Power drunkenness. I can Another area in which the Government has understand how that can occur in its first days increased its debating time in this House is that of office. However, this Government has now of ministerial statements. If one were to com- been in office for nearly three years. It should pare the number of ministerial statements be more objective and should recognise that made by this Government with the number there are many constraints on power and that made by the previous Government, one would there is a system under which it must work. find that there have been more ministerial Rules have been laid down in the Standing Or- statements made in the last 2'/2 years than there ders and this is not a dictatorship. It is well were during the previous nine years. The known that the Leader of the House is over- Government has bent the rules a little in order zealous. We may all be a bit that way from time that it will have more opportunity than the to time. I remember when I was a starting Opposition to debate matters in this House. young Minister, I wanted to use the Standing Orders very strictly and do something which As far as I am concerned, there is no justifi- could have been called a smart trick. cation for the motion and no truth in the reasons put forward by the Leader of the House I will never forget the treatment I received in regard to this motion and, therefore, I reject from the Premier of the day-the conservative it. Unfortunately, the motion will not be Sir Charles Court. He told me that I was never rejected by the House because the Government to undertake such a smart trick in this Parlia- has the numbers but I suggest that it will re- ment again regardless of whether it was i n ac- main on record as a reflection upon the present cordance with Standing Orders. That is what I Government. learned from Sir Charles Court and that is what I have always done since that time. And I say MR THOMPSON (Kalamunda) [12.13 this in his favour, because he is so often at- p.m.]: There is a well-known. saying in the Par- tacked nowadays, when he cannot defend him- liaments around the world that Oppositions self will have their say, but that Governments will have their way. In the motion we are debating The reasoning that more private members' today it can be seen that the Government is time will be available as a result of this motion trying to change that saying in respect of this is again entirely unfactual. The Government Parliament. What the Government is doing in has, of course, developed tactics within the this cynical move is to reduce the opportunity rules of the Parliament to debate whatever sub- for the Opposition to have its say. ject it wishes to debate at any time. The Government has used the system of Having sat through many hours of debate in Dorothy Dix questions on an excessive scale. this House, I am amazed to hear the same per- son, who spoke frequently about how the Op- Mr Camr We did not introduce Dorothy Dix position should be given more opportunity to questions. express itself, introduce this measure. I have Mr MENSAROS: I did qualify my statement heard him speak on several occasions about and I remind the Minister for Police and this issue and on one of those occasions he said Emergency Services that I have been in this that he thought Parliament was on strike, and place longer than he. Dorothy Dix questions that the strike had been called by the Govern- were asked when the previous Government was ment to ensure that the Opposition could not in power, but they were few in number; most of have its say. the questions asked were from members of If we look at what has happened in the time the then Opposition. that the present Government has been in I ask members if they have heard a genuine office, and particularly since the Leader of the question being asked of a Minister of the House has been in control of the House, it can Government by a Government backbencher be seen that there has been a dramatic erosion during the time the present Government has of the opportunity for members of the Oppo- been in power. There were the occasional sition to have their say, a principle which is so Dorothy Dix questions from Government fundamental to the system of parliamentary backbenchers during our time in office, but democracy. We have seen a dramatic reduction 278 278[ASSEMBLY] in the speaking times for members of Parlia- What will happen in this case is that we will ment and we have had the introduction of the compress into a shorter time span the guillotine and the threat that it will be used opportunities the Opposition has to raise more frequently. issues. We will find that it will be inconvenient for the Government to allow debate on the Ad- Mr Jamieson: Neither of which has reduced dress-in-Reply, and on top of this the Budget the number of hours we are sitting. We are will be introduced. The Government will com- sitting longer these days. press the Budget and the Address-in-Reply Mr THOMPSON: We may be sitting longer speeches into the one short time-frame and hours, but the number of opportunities for many issues that members may wish to raise members of the Opposition to raise their points will not be raised because members will not is reducing. It is natural that Parliament should have had the opportunity to raise them. be sitting longer because as the affairs of the There Government is no doubt that the Opposition is be- become more complex and as the ing silenced and it comes at community expands and ages, so the calls on a very convenient Parliament increase. time for the Government because we are run- ning up to an election and the less time it can The member for Welshpool has been in this give the Opposition to debate matters in this Parliament long enough to know that there has Parliament the better it will be for the Govern- been an increase in the number of hours that ment. My prediction is that the Government Parliament sits and that it is in parallel with the will bring only the bearest essential pieces of rise in population and industrial activity. legislation to this Parliament during the bal- ance of this session and that will allow this When the member for Welshpool first came Government to get out of this place as quickly into this Parliament, the Parliament sat at 4.30 as it can. The Government is aware that while p.m. because the members usually had other Parliament sits the Opposition has the oppor- occupations. In those days Parliament gener- tunity to take some hide off it. ally concluded at 10.00 p.m. Those hours pertained on two of the three sitting days each This motion is just a cynical move. It is part week and on the third sitting day Parliament of the Government's strategy to cling to the did sit a little earlier. Also, when the member Treasury benches. When in Opposition the for Welshpool first came into this Parliament, Leader of the House was very much in favour the Parliament sat only between August and of committees of the Parliament having an op- November. It is a fallacy to say that because portunity to work. In fact, he said that when there has been an increase in the number of Labor came to Government it would see to it hours the Parliament is sitting it means the that there were many more Select Committees Opposition has enough time available to it to and many more opportunities for ordinary debate the matters it thinks necessary. members of Parliament to play an effective role Mr .Jamieson: There has also been an in- in the business of Government. crease in the amount of time the Opposition has Mr MacKinnon: He had a lapse of memory taken in comparison with the time taken by as he walked across the floor. Government members. Mr THOMPSON: I very much doubt that Mr THOMPSON: He certainly had a lapse of the proportion of Opposition time to Govern- memory. You, Mr Speaker, head a number of ment time has changed. As a matter of fact, if very important committees, one of which is the the figures were to be extracted I am sure mem- Standing Orders Committee, yet here we are bers would find there has been a sharp re- debating a suspension of a Standing Order. I duction in the number of hours that the Oppo- must have missed those meetings you, Mr sition has had for debating matters it raises in Speaker, no doubt called to consider this this House in comparison with the number of measure. I am a member of that committee, yet hours spent on Government measures. I have not received any notices to attend meet- ings to consider this proposal. Could it be that There is no doubt in my mind that this the matter has not been referred to the Stand- Government, in the time that it has been on the ing Orders Committee? I know that the Treasury benches, has significantly reduced the Speaker would have sent out notices if he had opportunities available to private members to been asked to discusss the matter. It is clear speak and, in particular, the time available to that your committee, Mr Speaker, has not been members of the Opposition to raise issues. asked to look at it. [Thursday, 22 August 1985]27 279

Where does that place the Leader of the Mr Tonkin: It is not permanent. House? He is the guy who reckons that mem- bers of Parliament should have more oppor- Mr THOMPSON: We proposed such mo- tunity to discuss things in committee. This tions on an ad hoc basis. The Leader of the matter is a direct example of the type of matter House wishes to be given carte blanche to do that should be referred to the Standing Orders what he likes. Committee. That committee has been snubbed Mr Tonkin: We will not use this authority by the Leader of the House. If the Leader of the except in respect of urgent Bills. House could interrupt his conversation with his fellow Minister he might answer my ques- Mr THOMPSON: The Leader of the House tion as to why this matter was not referred to will decide that all Bills are urgent. If that is the the Standing Orders Committee. case, why has he brought the matter to the Mr Tonkin: Because we are not altering House at all? He wants to ride roughishod over Standing Orders. the Opposition. Mr THOMPSON: We are not altering Stand- Mr Tonkin: You know I'm not like that. ing Orders? Mr THOMPSON: The Leader of the House Mr Tonkin: No, we are not altering Standing wants to demonstrate that he can wield his Orders. power. The Opposition is not at all fooled by Mr THOMPSON: When the Leader of the what the Government is doing. It simply wants House contemplated introducing the guillotine to compress into a very short time those provision he referred that matter, after chiding, opportunities private members have to raise all to the Standing Orders Committee. At that manner of issues in order effectivly to reduce time he was contemplating only a sessional or- the number of issues brought forward and the der, yet before he brought it in he had the amount of time in which those issues can be matter considered by the Standing Orders debated. That suits the Government admirably Committee. as we run up towards this election campaign. Mr Tonkin: If there were to be a permanent Members of the Government staggered out of change of this nature it would be referred to the this Parliament at the end of last session with Standing Orders Committee. their reputations in tatters. By Mhs measure the Leader of the House seeks to curtail our oppor- Mr THOMPSON: But a permanent change tunity to put pressure on the Government. He was not contemplated, as far as we know, with will do so not only at the Government's peril, respect to that earlier change, yet we had the but also to the disadvantage of the community opportunity to debate it within the Standing as a whole. There is no doubt that a Govern- Orders Committee. I think that the Leader of ment that does not have pressure applied to it the House should pop up and apologise to the by an Opposition is less efficient than one that committee and to this House. does. Mr Tonkin: Any member of the House has a right to refer a matter to the Standing Orders The Government seeks to reduce the oppor- Committee. tunity of the Opposition to do that job which is vital to our system of parliamentary democ- Mr THOMPSON: The only time we could do racy. I call upon the Leader of the House at this that is when the committee meets. late stage to withdraw this motion and to have Mr Tonkin: If you think this matter should the matter considered by the Standing Orders be teferred to the Standing Orders Committee, Committee. When a recommendation is by all means do so. received from that committee the matter may Mr THOMPSON: It should have been re- then be considered in the House. ferred to that committee before coming to this place for consideration so that that committee MR RUSHTON (Dale) [ 12.26 p.m.]: The re- and the Speaker could have had some say about spect for Parliament is being diminished by what should happen. this motion and the honoured institution of Parliament is being compromised. The point Mr Tonkin: This motion was moved by you previously raised by the member for people time and time again for specific Bills. Kalamunda was a correct and genuine one: You did not refer it to the Standing Orders This motion shows the amount of respect that Committee. the Government has for the institution of Par- Mr THOMPSON: We did not bring in a mo- liament. It believes that it should diminish the tion to change Standing Orders permanently. opportunity for members to speak. Irrespective 280 280[ASSEMBLY] of what the member has to say, he has the right system of administration is the ability of indi- to say it in this House. The day that that is lost, vidual members to present their points of view may God help us. in this Parliament. In this House up to this time we have had The traditions of Parliament are being reasonable rules under the Standing Orders. It trampled upon by the Government's action is obvious that this proposition should have which is full of self-interest. I think the move come before the Standing Orders Committee would scare the pants off people interested in which would have considered whether it is de- democracy and the rights of members. Confi- sirable to write this proposed motion into the dence in the institution of Parliament will be Standing Orders. No such move has been very much diminished. This motion signals the made. No satisfactory explanation has been end of fair treatment and an equitable oppor- given for the introduction of this move. tunity for all members to represent their elec- We talk about the right of Ministers to bring torates. It continues the downward slide forward urgent Bills. Any Sill that is considered already begun by this Government. urgent by the Minister is deemed to be so. That The appropriate salute for this Government is an unfair approach to this House. In the past is, "Heil Hitler". the guillotine was introduced very rarely, and MR TRETHOWAN (East Melville) [12.32 only when it was demonstrated that there was p.m.]: The move made by the Government some urgency about a Bill. Each time the today highlights the attitude of a Labor guillotine was applied it was done for a good Government to the traditions of Westminster. reason. This Government is doing as I It appears that Labor Governments, and par- predicted. It started the session very late and it ticularly this one, are interested in changing will finish it very early. The public can easily traditions for the sake of change without look- understand that by so doing the Government is ing at the value of the institution that may be demonstrating that it is not prepared to face up changed by changing a particular tradition. to the scrutiny of the Opposition. The Govern- Mr Tonkin: ment will not give the Opposition the oppor- If we had more members like tunity to test its stewardship. It wishes to re- you in this place the standing of this Parlia- move from individual members the oppor- ment would be much higher. I say that tunity to question many matters of concern seri.ously, not tongue-in-cheek. both in their electorates and in the State. Mr TRETHOWAN: I certainly appreciate that This motion represents a deliberate move to comment by the Leader of the House. limit the opportunity of private members to Mr Burkett: Hear, hear! represent their electors in Parliament. It is a Mr TRETHOWAN: The point I make is that deliberate attempt to stifle opportunity for de- the Address-in-Reply is an integral pant of the bate by way of questioning the Government. Westminster system, which system developed The public should ask why this move is being the concept of a constitutional monarchy. It introduced. Why is this change to the Standing was the basis upon which the Houses of Parlia- Orders not being negotiated by the Standing ment developed in the United Kingdom; it was Orders Committee? It is obvious the move the basis upon which the freedom of speech of seeks to advance the Government. There is no members of Parliament was established; and it point in blaming only the Leader of the House; was the basis upon which our whole democracy the, Government is putting this matter before has evolved. us. This is the action of a Government which is I am a very strong supporter of both the hell-bent on taking advantage of every oppor- Westminster system and the constitutional tunity to overpower the Opposition in an un- monarchy. The essential foundation of a Par- fair way. liament based on a constitutional monarchy is In the lead-up to an election the Opposition the pant played by the monarch in the has the opportunity to expose the shortcomings constitutional process in the formulation of of the Government in this Parliament. We all law. Under the Westminster system that is know that when Parliament ceases the highlighted by the fact that the monarch opens opportunities for Opposition members to ex- the principal commencement session of Parlia- pose the Government are very limited. The ment from the upper Chamber. During that Government has the resources and the opening ceremony the monarch or her rep- opportunities to browbeat the media and it is resentative gives a speech outlining what the able to use those resources in a very unfair way. monarch's government will do during the The one protection that society has in our coming session of that Parliament. That speech [Thursday, 22 August 1985] 2818 is the cornerstone of the commencement of Mr TRETHOWAN: I thank the member for Parliament and it outlines the principal pieces Floreat for that comment because it is a clear of legislation to be considered during the example of the attitude expressed by the session. It is also a recognition of the integral Government towards the traditions of pant that the monarch plays in the parliamen- constitutional monarchy that certainly we on tary process. this side of the House hold very important in- It is significant that this Government has deed. Republicanism appears to be rife among broken with the tradition in this State of having Government members and it is expressed in an annual opening of Parliament; it has held any way they feel like. only two openings of Parliament during the Mr Tonkin: I am a constitutional monar- time of its government. One would suspect that chist. I have stood many times in this House in that indicates the lack of importance placed support of the monarchy. upon the ceremony of opening of Parliament Mr TRETHOWAN: Why did the Leader of and the lack of importance placed on the par- the House sit in this Chamber instead of ticipation of the monarch or her representative attending the ceremonial opening of Parlia- in that process. ment? Mr Tonkin: We have had three openings. Mr Tonkin: That was an attack on the Legis- Mr TRETHOWAN: What about the first lative Council; it had nothing to do with the time? Governor. Mr Tonkin: Openings were held in 1983, Mr TRETHOWAN: It was also an attack on 1984 and 1985. the Governor because in our system there is Mr TRETHOWAN: I apologise if that is the only one Chamber from which Parliament can case. However, we have had only two cer- be opened. Under the Westminster system the emonial openings. monarch or her representative is only Mr Parker: Are you talking about ceremony privileged to open the session from the upper or the monarch's representative? The mon- House. The monarch or her representative is arch's representative was involved in all three not privileged to attend the lower House. but one did not have the soldiers and 'the band Therefore, openings of a Westminster-style outside. Parliament can take place only in the upper House. Consequently, while a refusal to attend Mr TRETHOWAN: The point I make is that that House may be an indication of disap- the Government downgraded the importance proval of the upper House, it is also a down- of that ceremony obviously because it does not right insult to the monarch. regard it as important. The Government re- flects the view that is prevalent among many The point I am making is that to postpone members of its party that Australia should the reply to the monarch's speech, which is move away from the concept of constitutional written by the Government, is an insult. it is monarchy to a situation of becoming a repub- the speech of the monarch, or the monarch's lic. They seem to be in line with their mates in representative. The importance of that is being the BLE on that matter. downplayed and downgraded. Mr Dlaikie: They also want to move away The Westminster system is, by its very from the legal system. nature, as it is at present and as it has devel- Mr TRETHOWAN: I take the point made by oped over a period of time, a party system of the member for Vasse. This move is another Government. indication of the republican sentiments of the Mr Tonkin: The Westminster system is a Labor Party and it is being exposed to public system of a one-House Parliament. view. Mr TRETHOWAN: The Westminster It clearly is an insult to the monarch or the system involves three constitutional agencies monarch's representative that the reply to the for the passing of laws. It includes two Houses. address given at the opening of Parliament Mr Tonkcin: One of which only has a suspen- should be superseded by the business of sory veto. Government other than in very urgent circum- stances. Mr TRETH-OWAN: At present, but tra- ditionally it did not. Mr Mensaros: The Leader of the House did not attend the Governor at one time during the Mr Tonkin: It has now. opening of Parliament. Mr TRETHOWAN: Traditionally it did not. 282 282[ASSEMBLYI

Mr Tonkin: It does in the Westminster The fact that the Address-in-Reply will be system here. spread out raises an interesting prospect of its Mr TRETHOWAN: Here both Houses are continuing while the Budget debate is in oper- elected by the same franchise, both in the State ation. In fact, the Address-in-Reply could be and in the Federal sphere. prolonged, under this amendment to Standing The second House Orders, has more than just a veto. It still represents the to cover the whole session. As a result some members may not have time to make three factors involved in the passing of laws, the approval of both Houses of Parliament plus their Address-in-Reply speeches till towards the approval of the monarch. the end of the session. As I have said, there is another factor Mr Tonkin: Only if you frustrate them by involved in this move to suspend Standing Or- continually moving amendments. ders. The Westminster system involves essen- Mr TRETH-OWAN: Now we have the other tially a party system in the operation of Parlia- interesting side to it. The Leader of the House ment. That works very well, and I have no clearly admits he is interested in reducing the quibble with it; but there are very few oc- time that members of the Opposition have to casions-I know there are grievances but they discuss matters criticising the Government. He are limited-for individual members to be able believes there should be a sanction on members to stand up and voice directly the grievances, of the Opposition, and the sanction is that the interests, and concerns of their electorates. Opposition wants to allow its members indi- After all, as well as being elected as a member vidually to express the needs of their constitu- of a party, one is also elected to this House as ents. It then has to knuckle under and not an individual representative of one's constitu- criticise the Government by moving amend- ents. ments to the Address-in-Reply. That is what Two principal opportunities are provided, the Leader of the House is saying. If the Oppo- and those are the Address-in-Reply and the sition wishes to move amendments to the Ad- Budget debate, for an individual member to dress-in-Reply to criticise the Government, it stand and canvass virtually any subject does so at the expense of its own members. matter which is of concern to him and to his Mr Tonkin: That has always been the case. coi stituents. The move foreshadowed here today which the Government is attempting to Mr TRETHOWAN: If the Leader of the accomplish will increase the lime over which House and the Government had the interests of the Address-in-Reply is held and it will mean individual members and their constituents at that some members of this House may wish to heart, they would have called the House express particular views on behalf of their con- together in the normal period of the year, stituents, but they will have to wait for an ex- which is the end of July. That would have given tended period of time before having an oppor- two or three weeks for the Address-in-Reply to tunity to do so. take place, rather than wait until the pant of the year we have reached now. I know some members on the other side have said that the Address-in-Reply is only parish- Why did the Government not call this House pump stuff, together at the normal calendar time of the year? The reason is that it did not want criti- Mr Tonkin: If you do not move amendments cism, and it particularly did not want criticism your members will have plenty of time to speak from the Opposition. on the Address-in-Reply. The reason for waiting two or three weeks Mr TRETHOWAN: It is also important for longer than previously to call the House the Opposition to be able to express directly to together is that the Government knew it would the Monarch its dissatisfaction with elements increase the opportunity for the Opposition to of the Government's performance, the vehicle criticise it- The reason for moving this amend- for which is the Address-in-Reply debate . That ment to suspend Standing Orders is to reduce is why the Address-in-Reply motion is moved, the opportunity for the Opposition to criticise and that is why it is debated. the Government. That opportunity will net be The Address-in-Reply, as with the Budget reduced. The Opposition will take full advan- debate, is a way for individual members to ex- tage to make its criticisms of the Government press the interests of their constituents and on behalf of the people of this State. But that bring to this House matters which otherwise will result in individual members of this House they would have difficulty in having aired. having to postpone the time in which they are [Thursday, 22 August 1985] 2938 able to express to the House the interests of Mr Pearce: Unlike the Opposition, we have their constituents, until the Government sees confidence in our leader, and so do the electors. fit to allow them to speak. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Let me simply say that That is a very regressive action. It illustrates the Government has no intention of calling an the lack of respect in which the constitutional early election, whether it is for the purposes of monarch is held in this place. It illustrates the the Leader of the Opposition or of some other strong republican sentiments held by the organisation or individual that believes an Government and many members of the Labor early election is desirable. That is the start and Party. It is a way in which the proceedings and finish of the matter. I suspect that the repeated traditions of this House are being downgraded attempts by the Leader of the Opposition to and the interests of individual constituents and hold up this visage of early electioneering is members are being deleteriously affected. really a rearguard action to make sure the natives in his own camp remain as restful as Because of that I oppose the motion. possible. MR BRIAN BURKE (Balga-Premier) Mr Hassell interjected. [12.48 pim.]: I rise to inform the House and the Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not know whether Leader of the Opposition of the Government's that is true or not, but I do know that the first absolute intention that this Government prospect of the motion presently before the should serve its full term in office. I see that the Chair being seen as a motion that would pro- Leader of the Opposition had recourse today to voke an early election was not raised by anyone an argument that he has used previously, I sus- on the Government side of the House, because pect to bolster his own stocks from time to quite honestly it had not entered our minds. It time; but it is an argument I have tried to refute was raised by the Leader of the Opposition. as publicly and as frequently as it has been appropriate to do so. Mr H-assell: The Opposition still cannot work out why the motion has been moved. I have not said it previously in the Parlia- ment-if I have I cannot remember-but let Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Government will me say it now so that all members of the Oppo- see the Opposition on the hustings in March or sition will hear what I have to say and be April next year, at the normal election time, convinced of my intention in this matter. The and we are quietly confident that this Govern- Government has absolutely no intention of ment will be returned. calling an early election. We will not be bullied We know that politics is volatile but we can- by the Opposition into calling an early election, not see any justification for calling an early and we will not be threatened into so doing. We election. What the Leader of the Opposition is believe very strongly that early elections are about is wrong, as no-one should be heard try- anathema to the public generally; they are not ing to postulate, on the basis of this motion, necessary when Governments have a good some scenario about an early election being the working majority on the floor of this Chamber, reason for its presence in this Chamber. Some and in the case of the Labor Party they become people may believe that. Whether it is believed necessary only when the Legislative Council Or not, the reason for the motion is simply to frustrates the programme the Government puts manage the passage of business more easily. It forward. On that basis there is no need for the will advantage rather than disadvantage the Government to seek an early election. Opposition, because private members' business will come on concurrently with the debate on Whether the Opposition chooses for its own the Address-in-Reply and will provide another purposes to talk about an early election, let us avenue, a further opportunity, to bring before have that story put to rest today if it is possible. the Parliament matters of interest to Oppo- As far as the Government is concerned, we sition members. The Opposition will have two have not discussed the prospect of an early options available to it: firstly, the Address-in- election; we see no basis for it; and we have not Reply, and secondly, normal private members' heard anyone call for it except the Opposition business. So the Opposition cannot honestly leader who, by implication as we saw today, is say it has been disadvantaged. prepared to weave some mysterious tale about In any case, the Opposition has the Address- the prospect of some confrontation with the in-Reply and private members' business-at its upper House spilling naturally over to an elec- own discretion to a large degree. It might be tion before the time at which an election is argued that the discretion over both those mat- necessary. ters lies with the Parliament, and I suppose that 284 284ASSEMBLY] is an argument that in theory is acceptable, but would see the need to do something about his in practice is contradicted by the fact that the approach to his job. The motion would never Opposition generally, whether it is us or the have been tolerated under previous leaders on Liberal Party, has some discretion over the either side of the House under whom I have matters to be raised during the Address-in-Re- had the privilege to serve. It would never have ply by way of amendment or speech, and been tolerated, on the second day of a formal through private members' business by way of sitting of the Parliament, to see a no confidence motion. On that basis, there is really no motion moved in the Government only to find substance to the Opposition's cry that it is be- that the Opposition which moved the motion ing disadvantaged. could not command all of the Opposition's "on Mr Hassell: There is no substance for the active service" troops to support it. motion. What is the explanation for it? Mr Blaikie:, I can see that that really worries Mr BRIAN BURKE: Certainly, as far as the you. Government is concerned, in respect to the Mr BRIAN BURKE: Itdoes not worry me, nether reaches of the motion, only a most ir- but it makes me stop and ask about the Oppo- rational mind would entertain the sort of sition's credibility when its members stand up proposition put forward by the Opposition. and say that the forms of the House are being Somehow or other, in an abstract and fairly disregarded in that the Crown or the Crown's difficult to define way, the Opposition believes representative is being insulted. this motion is meant to provoke an early elec- Several members interjected. tion. It really is not going to do that. It was never meant to--the idea was not entertained Mr BRIAN BURKE: I have made my point, by the Government. and in concluding, I say that I do not take the Let us leave that aside as the motive of the next election easily. I am not thinking that the Government. Our position is that instead of Government is going to be returned with a members of Parliament going home at 8.30 or thumping majority. I am quietly confident that 9.00 p.m., if Government business is fairly thin the Government will be returned, but it will not be returned, on the Notice Paper in the early stages of the nor evicted from office, on the basis of the comportment of this place. There session, members would be able to sit later. will be a campaign and with a bit of luck the instead of Opposition members running out of puff on private members' day, as they are wont Opposition will come forward with some poli- to do, we will be able to maintain reasonable cies so that we can see the positions of some sitting hours. I would remind the Opposition people. As far as those policies are concerned, that in the first formal week of the parlia men- they will be tested in the electorate. It is gener- tary session, the Parliament was treated to the ally held that the public does not like to see the Parliament display last night of a vote of no confidence in wasting its time; it does not like to the Government being lost, after it was moved see the hours set aside for sitting not fulfilled, and all this motion does is to bring into the by the Opposition, by a much greater number handling than the minority in which it finds itself in this Parliament's rational approach to the House. of its own business an added weapon to ensure that there is no time lost by people going home Mr Clarko: We could find the same in your at 9.00 p.m. record too. Mr Hassell: No explanation has yet been Mr BRIAN BURKE: The amount of interest given for the motion. that Opposition members are showing was reflected in the vote on the Mudginberi Mr BRIAN BURKE: I can only repeat that, amendment, and in the weak effort last night, subjected to scrutiny, that proposition fails the where the amendment was defeated by 24 to 14 test because that test can now be applied during votes. the Address-in-Reply, concurrently with pri- vate members' business. Itis not just a one-off Mr Clarko: Does it make a difference? test that has been given to the Opposition for Mr BRIAN BURKE: No, not as to the result, its own applications. There are ways of manag- but it makes a difference as to the test of the ing parliamentary business so that the Oppo- Opposition's sincerity. If the member for sition's moves in respect of the Address-in-Re- Karrinyup were to move a motion of no confi- ply founder too. Yesterday was a perfect dence that was supported by three members on example. The member for Mundaring spent 45 the Opposition side of the House, with other minutes clearly defining the case which we be- Opposition members abstaining, I am sure he lieve is supportable on taxes and charges, and [Thursday, 22 August 1985J18 285 by the time the Opposition moved its amend- this motion and took the time of this House to ment, no wonder some Opposition members say again that there would be no election this did not vote for it-they were bored witless. year. The Premier wanted the Press to print the The Opposition should not think that the Ad- comments that he has made today. He wants dress-in-Reply gives it a mortgage over the headlines for tomorrow and he is hoping the management of Parliament. That mortgage is Press will ignore the real argument of what he given by brains, not by the forms of the House. and the Government are trying to do In terms of the Government's treatment of today-which is to pull the wool over the eyes the Opposition, the way in which we have per- of the people and to stifle debate from all mem- mitted Opposition members to move urgency bers of this Parliament. Members on the other motions and accepted their amendments dem- side of the House may interject and say that onstrates that we have been far morenfexible in this is absolute nonsense. However, this is my entertaining the Opposition's position than has view. In fact what the Government has already any previous Government. done is to cut down the speaking time of all members in this place. Now the Government MR BLAIKIE (Vasse) [12.59 p.m.]: What a says, "Well, there is a new change in direc- lot of absolute drive! we have just heard from tion", and that may be the case but the Govern- the Premier; if there has ever been a case of a ment, by introducing this motion, is attempting pious Premier pontificating, we have seen it at to deny members of this Parliament the oppor- its worst. If ever this Parliament has been sur- tunity to adequately represent their electorates rounded by a smokescreen, we have just seen and their constituents. It may well be quite one from the Premier. boring for the member for Mundaring to listen Sitting suspendedfrom 1.00 to 2.1IS p. m. to the member for CoUie talking about coal Mr BLAIKIE: The Government is mining and energy but it happens to be very attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of important to that member and to his constitu- members in this place and over the eyes of ents that he raise such matters. He has a re- members of the Press. I believe that the sponsibility to raise such matters as he sees fit Premier may well have succeeded in his ploy on behalf of his constituents. with the Press, for the Press is not fully aware of what this motion is all about. The Government is intending to ensure that What has been proposed is that a Standing debate and electoral representation in the Par- Order should be suspended to enable the liament are stifled. I remind the Govern- Government to expedite its control over the ment-although I am sure it will not do any Parliament. That really is what this is all about. good, but at least it will be on the record-that However, the Premier came out with a most Parliament is for the people. It is not the tool of grandiose statement in which he implied, "I the Burke Labor Government, which is what the Leader of the House is wanting to achieve; just want to indicate very clearly to the House, cross my heart and hope to die if ever I tell a he wants the Parliament to be a rubber stamp lie, that there will be no election this year." The for the Government. If that happens it will be a Premier was simply looking for headlines to very tragic thing for Western Australia. That is keep the Press going. The Premier merely said the direction the Leader of the House is taking that there would be no election this year in the Parliament by ensuring members have order to ensure that the Press igniored the real reduced speaking times. intention of the Government in this regard. The Premier has continued in his attempt to Let us consider the track record of the Leader divert the attention of the House and the Press of the House since he was elected in 1971. If aims of the Government. any person were wanting to talk about parlia- from the real mentary reforn, freedom of speech and the de- Mr Brian Burke: I think that while you may sirable conduct of members in this House, the argue with the motion, the point I raised was in Leader of the House should be the last person fact first raised by the Leader of the Oppo- to claim any great virtue to enable him to speak sition. I did not really raise the prospect of the in this Legislative Assembly. A comparison election. could be made between his performance in the Mr BLAIFUE: The Premier has already Parliament and the performance of Mark raised the prospect of an election through the Jackson on the football field. Jackson is media. He told the media and the people of regarded as a clown and has often been sus- Western Australia some weeks ago that there pended from playing football. Likewise the would be no election this year. He then raised Leader of the House has been suspended more 286 286[ASSEMBLY] times than any other member in the Chamber. this affects Government business. I have no That is his record for the time he was in Oppo- objection to sitting until 1.00 a.m. in order to sition. finish the Address-in-Reply debate. Now on the Government benches, he adopts The Address-in-Reply debate has always a different and pious attitude. He attempts to been an important debate of the Parliament weave a web of intrigue using a rather and its Proceedings. Then we have the Budget interesting example of double-speak to try to debate, which also allows Opposition members, convince the people of WA that he is interested and Government members, to engage in repar- in parliamentary democracy and how this tee debate. House should work with his changes. The only These debates also allow Opposition mem- interest he has in this area is in how these bers, in fact any member of Parliament, to changes will suit his own purposes. move notices of motion, but the Government is wanting to change the rules to suit its own pur- The reason he has been suspended more times than any other member is that he has pose. defied Standing Orders. When the record of Mr Jamieson: Don't you mean amendments this Parliament is finally written up and per- and not notices of motion? formance medals are being struck, the Leader of the House will never be one of those who Mr BLAIKIE: While amendments to the Ad- receive a medal for having displayed any sense dress-in-Reply are effective in some ways, we of fair play in the Parliament. He will probably need to have a clear opportunity to move no- get a medal for his ability to introduce political tices of motion, which can stand in their own deception into the Parliament. This is right. acknowledged by people on both sides of the Mr Jamieson: You are going to get that from House, because his own members understand next Wednesday. that this is pant of his track record. Mr BLAIKIE: But only if it suits the Govern- The Leader of the House wants to suspend ment; if it does not and the Government deter- Standing Orders to enable the Government to mines that Government business is more im- control the business of the day. Let us consider portant- some of the changes to Parliament introduced Mvr Jamieson: At the end of the session, by the Leader of the House allegedly for the probably, yes. benefit of the Parliament and its members. I say right now that as a member of Parliament I Mr BLAIKIE: Now the member is splitting do not believe his changes have benefited me as hairs. If the Government determines that its a country member. We now sit at 2.1 5 p.m. on business should have absolute priority on any Tuesdays rather than at 4.30 p.m. and at 10.45 day, notwithstanding whatever the Leader of am. on Thursdays rather than at 2.15 p.m. the House has said today, we will find that he This has meant for me as a country member will stand here in two or three weeks, or at that the time I once had to represent my whatever stage is convenient to him, and say country constituents at various meetings has that because of new circumstances the Govern- been reduced. All country members have the ment wants to have certain legislation put same problem. This Government has no con- through, and Standing Orders are suspended. sideration for rural people or for country mem- He will say that although it is Wednesday and bers of Parliament. When the starting times although he is aware of what he said pre- were changed we told the Government that the viously, we must understand that these are new move was wrong and that it should not pro- circumstances. He will say that although the ceed, but the Government used its numbers Government gave certain undertakings, it is and pressed ahead. intending to use its numbers-at it always has done and as it will do in the future-and do as Again, what the Government is proposing it wants. today is to change Standing Orders so that Government business can take precedence over That has been the nature of this Govern- Orders of the Day and so that the Address-in- ment. That is what it has done consistently and Reply debate can be suspended at any time the repeatedly in the past; it will do so again in the Government chooses. The Government says future. The Government and the Leader of the that it needs this power because Standing Or- House have taken leave of the Parliament in dens tend to drag out the Address-in-Reply and establishing Parliament Week. That was an [Thursday, 22 August 19851 2878 idea of the Leader of the House; it was not a and the House really considered something like determination by the Parliament, but by the only 50 of them because time did not permit Government. full consideration. Mr Parker: What do you mean by "taking Mr Parker: How often does the House con- leave?" sider more than 30 clauses in a Bill? Mr BLAIKIE: Just what I said. Mr BLAIKIE: It is all very well for the Minis- Mr Parker: But what does it mean? ter to say that, but the Opposition proposed a number of amendments to the Bill which were Mr BLAIKIE: The Leader of the House has agreed to by the Government. I believe the put himself above the Parliament and deter- Government would have agreed to a number of mined that there shall be a Parliament Week. others had time been provided for them to be He has not asked Parliament; he made that debated and considered by the Parliament. determination, and away it went. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Would the The Government has manipulated and will member indicate to me how this particular sec- manipulate Parliament to its own ends. Parlia- tion of his speech relates to the motion, be- mentary debates will continue to take place, cause I am having some difficulty in seeing the but notwithstanding the careful consideration connection? which you, Mr Deputy Speaker, will give to proceedings, in the end the Government will Mr BLAIKIE: It relates to the motion in this have its will because it has the numbers. It way: We are talking about the suspension of must win the vote, but it will not win the de- Standing Orders and I am describing the bate of the day. In my view it is attempting to Government's track record in handling mo- pull the wool over the eyes of the community tions and legislation brought before the House, and the Press. and how the House has been led down the garden path. I will take a few moments to sum- As far as proceedings on Wednesdays are marise the point. concerned, the Government will change the rule again at any stage when it believes Govern- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I suggest the ment business should have priority. The mem- member take only a few moments because he is ber for Karrinyup mentioned the debate on lo- drawing a long bow. cal government matters and how little time there was to consider that legislation. It comes Mr BLAIKIE: Regardless of what the back to the commitments made by the Govern- Government said, there was not sufficient time ment and the fact that it did not allow proper for the legislation to be fully considered. It was consideration of that Bill. major legislation proposing major changes, but it was rushed through the House. That does not I will refer to a debate in which I was lead to adequate consideration of legislation. involved-that relating to the conservation and land management legislation. The Government is proposing today that it take control of debates and that they be subject Mr Parker: Are you saying insufficient time to the Government's will and discretion. We was given to that? It went on for weeks. are totally opposed to that. If the Government Mr BLAIKIE: There was not sufficient time gets its way it will be a further step towards to consider the full implications of the legis- muzzling members of Parliament and a sad lation. I refer members to page 2872 of step in the wrong direction because it will re- Hansard. Although the legislation had been be- duce the effectiveness of this Parliament. That fore the House for some time the Government would be a retrograde step, but it is one which said that three hours would be allocated to de- the Leader of the House wants to take. That has bate in the Committee stage but there would be been his intention since he became a member no debate after that. of Parliament; his track record shows his disre- gard for the procedures of Parliament. Mr Parker: That was after you had been de- bating it for weeks. I oppose the motion. Mr BLAIKIE: It was a very complex piece of MR McNEE (Mt Marshall) [2.36 p.m.]: I rise legislation. It completely changed the direction to express my disgust at the Government's atti- of forest conservation and management in tude. It has shown itself for what it really is. As Western Australia. Many factors had to be con- we have said many times, the Government has sidered. The legislation contained 150 clauses, put on its jack boots and steumrolled Parlia- 288 288[ASSEMBLY] ment. That is panticularly true of the Leader of electors and this Government is trying to make the House, whom I call the "Minister for elec- it more difficult for us to do that. I would have toral change." thought that Government backbenchers would It is interesting to note the absence of the have the courage to take a stand on the motion, Government backbench. Would there be a and oppose it. However, it is interesting to note dozen of them in the House? that not one of them has had anything to say on this most important matter. I hope they will Mr Parker: So what? You are talking absol- not mind if I remind the electors in a few ute tripe, Why should they listen to you? weeks' time of the fact that they did not have Mr MeN EE: In a few weeks those same anything to say. people will be out in the electorate saying to I remind the Government about the folly of their elecors-the people who are not going to the course on which it is embarking. I do not vote for them-how strong they are and how believe it is right to take away well they represent my privileges them. They are not here and I centainly do not wish to see the Oppo- today because if they were and if they had the sition steamrolled. I also point out that this courage of their convictions they would be Government shows no respect whatsoever for standing with me against this Government the institution of Parliament. which wants to take away my right to express my opinions and the views of my electorate in Question put and a division taken with the this House. If they were genuine backbench following result- members they would be standing with me Ayes 21 against this oppression. They are not even in Mr Bateman MruHodge Mrs Beggs Mr Jamieson the House; they have probably been sent out. Mr Bertram Mr Parker They are very happy to see the Government try Mr Bridge Mr Read to roll the Opposition. Mr Bryce Mr D. L. Smith Mr Brian Burke Mr Taylor We are not prepared to accept that because Mr Terry Burke Mr Tonkin we will not stand idly by and watch the Mr Carr Mrs Watkins Government achieve the ends that it wishes. Mr Davies Mr Wilson Perhaps the Government will ultimately win Mr Evans Mr Burkett the vote, but I want to remind its backbenchers Mrs Henderson (Teller) that they made little effort to do anything Noes 18 Mr Blaikie Mr MeNe about this motion. It is not a question of the Mr Bradshaw Mr Mensaros Government's having a difficult time from the Mr Cash Mr Rushion Opposition, because the Opposition has been Mr Clarko Mr Spriggs co-operative towards the Government in its Mr Court Mr Thompson Mr Grayden Mr Trethowan legislative programme. Mr Hassell Mr Tubby The Government does not really have an ex- Mr Peter Jones Mr Watt cuse. All it wants to do is muzzle the Parlia- Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams ment as we run towards an election, and for (Teller) good reason-it does niot have a very good Pairs Ayes Noes record. It does not want all the smelly bits like Mr Gordon Hill Mr Crane the Chinese restaurant affair dragged out be- Mr Tom Jones Mr Coyne fore the public. The Government wants to clear Mr Pearce Mr Old us out of this place as soon as it can. Mr P. J. Smith Mr Laurance (Teller) Make no mistake, the Opposition will have Question thus passed. its say and it will oppose the type of sup- pression that this Government wants to impose BILLS: SESSIONAL ORDER on the Parliament of Western Australia. The Motion Government has illustrated that it does not care about the Parliament-an institution MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Leader of the which has stood the test of time. The Govern- House) [2.45 p.m.]: I move- ment wants to steamroll the workings Of Parlia- For the balance of the present session ment anid to make it difficult for the Oppo- the following order shall apply: sition to express an opposing point of view. (1) On the reading of a message from 1 am under the impresion-as most mem- the Governor recommending an bers should be-that members of Parliament appropriation in connection with are elected to t ieir position to represent their any Bill, on the calling of a mo- [Thursday, 22 August 1985])8 289

tion for leave to introduce a Bill in-Reply, the Budget and the or a notice of presentation, on the Supply Bill will not be subject to consideration of any motion pre- these procedures. liminary to the introduction of a (2) Upon such motion or motions Bill, at any stage of a Bill, or on with regard to the allotment of the consideration of Council time being moved, no debate amendments or requests for thereon shall be allowed for more amendments to a Bill, a Minister than 20 minutes, and in speaking may declare that the Bill is an ur- thereon no member may exceed gent Bill, and on such declaration, five minutes. If the debate be not the question "That the Bill be sooner concluded, then forthwith considered an urgent Hill" shall upon the expiration of that time be put forthwith-no debate or the Speaker or the Chairman shall amendment being allowed-and put any questions on any amend- on such question being agreed to, ment or motion already proposed a Minister may forthwith, or at from the Chair. any time during any sitting of the House or committee, but not so as (3) (a) For the purpose of bringing to interrupt a Member who is ad- to a conclusion any proceed- dressing the House or committee, ings which are to be brought move a motion or motions speci- to a conclusion on the expir- fying the time which shall be al- ation of the time allotted lotted to all or any of the follow- under any motion passed ing: under any of the preceding paragraphs of this sessional (a) The initial stages of the Bill order, the Speaker or the (including any motion pre- Chairman shall, at the time liminary to the introduction appointed under the motion of the Bill) up to, but not in- for the conclusion of those elusive of, the second reading proceedings, put forthwith of the Bill; any question already (b) The second reading of the proposed from the Chair and Bill, other than for that part any other question requisite of the debate involving the to dispose of the business be- second reading speech of the fore the House or committee, Member introducing the Hill including, when considering and the first Member any Bill in committee or any responding thereto; Council amendments or (c) The committee stage of the Council requests for amend- Hill; ments to a Bill, any amend- ments, new clauses and (d) The remaining stages of the schedules, and modifications, Hill; copies of which have been (e) The consideration of Council circulated by the Govern- amendments or requests for ment among members two amendments to the Hill: hours at least before the ex- piration of the allotted time. and the order with regard to the No other amendments, new time allotted to the committee clauses Or schedules, or stage of the Hill may, out of the modifications may be time allotted, apportion a certain proposed. time or times to a particular (b) Where less than the maxi- clause or clauses, or to any par- mum time allotted by a ticular part or parts of the Bill. resolution under this order is The total time so allotted to a spent in considering any Bill declared urgent will not be stage of a Bill the Speaker or less than a total of two hours. De- the Chairman, as the case bates to proceed on the Address- may be, may permit any later (10) 290 90~[ASS EM BLY]

stage or stages of the Bill to The Opposition has indicated in this House be considered for an ad- previously that it is not necessary to have a ditional period of time, such motion to allow legislation to be declared ur- additional period of time be- gent. The Opposition's reason for opposing this ins not greater than the type of motion was adequately outlined in this period of time which had not Parliament in August last year. I will not go been utilised at the earlier over those reasons again because they have stage. been placed on record for everyone to read. (4) Where any time has been speci- Let me explain what the actual performance fied for the commencement of in the Parliament has been under this Sessional any proceedings in connection Order-an order which has been moved three with any business under this times by this Government. In relation to the sessional order, when the time so previous motion dealt with today, the Oppo- specified has been reached the sition outlined the hypocrisy and dishonesty of business, whatsoever its nature the Government in moving such a motion. The be, then before the House or com- Leader of the House did not give one example mittee shall be postponed forth- of why that motion was necessary and he has with, and the firstmentioncd busi- not given any indication or example of why this ness shall be proceeded with, and motion is necessary. all steps necessary to enable this For the information of members, particularly to be done shall be taken accord- the Minister for Minerals and Energy, I will ingly. detail the Bills that have been declared urgent since this type of Sessional Order was first (5) Standing Order 158 shall not ap- implemented and I will give the result which ply to any proceedings in respect has occurred as a consequence. of which time has been allotted in pursuance of this sessional order. The Casino Control Hill was declared an ur- gent Bill and six hours was the time allowed for This is a motion that has been moved by the the debate. The time used was five hours and Government in previous yearn. We agree that 35 minutes. Debate allowed on the Financial in the main it will not need to be used and that Institutions Duty Amendment Hill was three agreements will be informally reached behind hours, and two hours 41 minutes was used. In the Chair. We believe that with continued co- both these cases the maximum time set aside operation this Sessional Order will not often be for debate was not used. required to be used. However, if the Oppo- The debate on only two Bills utilised the full sition does decide to become obstructive it is of time set aside. One of those Bills was the Local value to have a Sessional Order of this kind so Government Amendment Bill which was re- that the Government can get its legislation ferred to this morning, and for the benefit of through the House without too much obstruc- the Minister for Local Government I advise tion. that seven hours, not 10 hours was set aside for the debate on that Bill. The time used on the MR MacKINNON (Murdoch-Deputy debate was seven hours and nine minutes. The Leader of the Opposition) [2.46 pm.]: The key Water Authority Bill was another Hill declared to this motion as outlined by the Leader of the urgent; four hours was set aside for debate with House was in his last few words; that is, the only three hours 32 minutes being used. The Sessional Order will be used so the Govern- Western Australian College of Advanced Edu- ment can get its legislation through the House cation Bill was the other Bill on which the full without too much obstruction. Those were the time set aside for debate was used. Three hours words used by the Leader of the House and was made available for the debate and the time heard by all members present. used was three hours eight minutes. A motion of this kind has been passed Before August last year only five Bills were through the Parliament previously. It was ,declared urgent and in only two cases was the opposed by the Opposition then, and will be time set aside for debate utilised. I am sure the opposed again today. It is another example of shadow Minister for Local Government will how this Government treats the formalities of agree with me that in the case of the Local this House and the structure of the Parliament Government Amendment Bill, the local with scant regard. authorities in this State and the people of West- [Thursday, 22 August 1985]29 291 emn Australia would have been better served vent us from drawing on that wisdom and had there been a longer and more adequate experience and debating at length this Bill debate on such an important piece of legis- of great gravity. lation. He was talking about a particular Hill; but those The performance last session is more import- words could be repeated with respect to every ant. The session began, as I indicated this Bill that is declared urgent in this Parliament. morning, on 28 July 1984. It concluded in July this year. It was a very long sitting of about There is no place in this Parliament for these 26 to 27 weeks. In that time one Bill was types of "jack boot" motions. The proper way declared urgent. I would like to see the number to deal with business in this Parliament is to do of Bills lined up in that session. They would so in a gentlemanly fashion by agreeing behind have been in excess of 100. Of those Bills, one the Chair as to the procedures. The Govern- was declared urgent. The record of that urgent ment now uses this threat any time it likes. It Bill warrants investigation. It was the Commer- does not trust the Opposition, and it does not cial Tenancy (Retail Shops) Agreements Bill, pay it any compliments or extend any courtesy and because the Opposition made some very at all, or try a commonsense approach to the telling paints on that legislation, the Govern- business of the House. Clearly, the Govern- ment chose to cut its losses and run by ment is running scared in the lead-up to the declaring the Bill urgent. One hour of further election. It does not wish to be placed under debate was allowed on that Bill in the Com- pressure. If it did, it would not have this mo- mittee stage and, of course, that hour was used. tion before us today. It could have left the Subsequently, the Legislative Council,' in its Standing Orders as they arc; as they have stood proper role of reviewing legislation, found the test of time. The Government does not some mistakes in the legislation that the Oppo- have the gumption to face the music and to put sition here would have been able to point out its record on the line. had it had the opportunity to debate the Bill We have opposed such a motion before, and properly. So, the legislation came back to this we will continue to oppose it. When we return Chamber and we had to spend more time on it. to Government we will show the Parliament Now the member for Nedlands has the proper respect it deserves. We will show the foreshadowed further amendments which he Opposition, as the Government will then be, will bring into the Parliament in relation to the proper respect. We would hope that it will that legislation-amendments caused because return the compliment at that time so this Par- this Government did not have the intestinal liament can return to a proper basis where the fortitude to allow proper debate in the Parlia- good operation of the Parliament can rely on ment. the goodwill of the members as it had done for In the time that this Parliament has had ur- years until the advent of the Burke socialist gency sessional orders, we have had six Bills Government. declared urgent. Of the six declared urgent, MR CIARKO (Karrinyup) [2.55 p.m.]: This only three have gone the full time and in one motion before us is "act two" of today's great case we had more time wasted because the Bill now has to come back for amendment. If we tragedy. had had no sessional order and had been able Mr Parker: Your skull. to arrive at agreement behind the Chair-because 99 times out of lO0 we can Mr CLARKO: The member thinks that is arrive at an agreement-then the Parliament very clever. Is he Vorick? There is one Shakespearean play which says, "Is this a dag- itself would have operated far more efficiently ger which I see before me, the handle toward and effectively, and the democratic rights of my hand? Come, let me clutch thee ....That would have been protected. the Opposition is one thing I would not want to do with the I urge the Leader of the House to remember Government. some of the words he used when he was sitting on the other side of this House. I have quoted Mr Pearce interjected. these words before, but they bear repeating. In Mr CLARKO: I am glad the Minister has September 1974, he said- opened his mouth. Has he any appointments There is a great deal of accumulated wis- this Saturday morning, and will he turn up to dom and hundreds of years of experience them? Will they have to ring him up and find on both sides in this Chamber; but the him in bed? Will he make the claim that he has Government by this motion intends to pre- just got back from the Eastern States? Does he 292 292[ASSEMBLY] have his own special aeroplanes flying in on Mr CLARKO: It is just as well the member Saturday morning, or does he mean he came for Mandurab is sitting on something about back on Friday night? four feet high so we can see him. Several members interjected. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! This is the last time I will do this. I suggest the member Mr CLARKO: I am the most placid person entirely ignore the interjections. If he does that on this galaxy. It takes a great deal to provoke I will give him the protection of the Chair. If, me but when I have to contend with these when he rises to speak this time, he ignores my heavyweights, occasionally I respond. request again and does not address the matter The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I appreci- before the Chair, I will insist that he takes his ate how placid the member for Karrinyup is, seat. and there can be no question about that. How- ever, it is incorrect of him to take the oppor- Point of Order tunity afforded by this debate to refer to Mr THOMPSON: It seems to me rather un- another matter entirely. I feel at this stage the fair that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, would take response was unprovoked. As I saw it, the Min- the member for Karrinyup to task when all he ister for Education had just sat down. I think is doing is responding to interjections from the the member should now get on to the matter other side. Perhaps the starting point should be before the House. for you to tell members not to interject on the Mr CLARKO: I take it that you, Sir, heard member for Karrinyup and thus allow the the interjection. I was responding to the Minis- member to make his speech. ter's interjection. In fact, the Minister is The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point surprisingly silent at present. of order? Mr Pearce: The Deputy Speaker asked you to Mr THOMPSON: The point of order is that be. I was being polite. you should be asking the members on the other Mr CLARKO: That would be difficult for the side not to interject. Minister. Has he insulted any of the principals The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no point of the universities lately, or did he keep that for of order. The member, having been Speaker last year? once upon a time, would well know the course of action that is open to him. If he wants to Mr Parker: What are you talking about? You take that course of action it is up to him. obviously did not do a very good job- Mr CLARKO: I know the Minister for Edu- Debate (on motion) Resumed cation was sound asleep when he should have Mr CLARKO: We have a situation before us been speaking to people associated with special where once again the five minute speech has education. His excuse was that he made a mis- been introduced. The shortest time allowed for take. The Minister is making mistakes on a speeches in this Parliament before this oc- regular basis. He would be the most accident- casion, assuming members used their allotted prone Minister in Australia. I wonder how the time, was 20 minutes. school is going at Karri Valley that he suppos- Mr Tonkin: That is not so. The grievance edly closed down, and what about his brilliant debate limited speeches to 10 minutes. interjection a couple of weeks ago when he said I was being moved off him, when I had been Mr CLARKO: That is a series of speeches moved on to Planning? which are made together and certainly add up to more than that figure. I accept that a single The DEPUTY SFEAKER: Order! I appreci- speech in that debate is limited to I0 minutes. ate that on this occasion the member was reply- It is a disgrace that matters which relate to ing to an interjection. I do not want my ruling prime legislation should be hurriedly dealt with to be entirely ignored. I hope that when he rises on the basis of urgency within the parliamen- to his feet this time he will see his way clear to tary system. debate the matter before the House. This legislation relates to Bills which the Mr Read interjected. Government considers to be very important Mr CLARKO: Is the member in Eucla? Are and which are controversial; it is not about there any seats behind him? Hills which are unimportant. In its usual man- ner, the Government has got things back to Mr Read: It is very good up here. front; on the very measures on which we should [Thursday, 22 August 1985]29 293 be taking more time it has been the practice of I do not believe Opposition members have this Government, since the legislation was been irresponsible in terms of the length of introduced a year ago, to apply the urgency speeches delivered, certainly not in comparison declaration. It happens only when members with what went on during the previous 10 want to speak on the subject for longer than years. I can remember very clearly the peak, or usual periods. That is the rub. perhaps the nadir-the 51/2 hour speech made by the Leader of the House. It was the greatest Legislation has passed through this House on waste of time I have heard, with much tedious many occasions in a matter of minutes. When- repetition. The only phrases he knows well, ever we can and whenever legislation is respon- phrases with which he interlaced that speech, sible and necessary, Opposition members have were "corrupt Governments" and "corrupt demonstrated a very responsible attitude and Act". It was a stunt. He deliberately defied the have given complete support to the Govern- Speaker of the day and he thought he was mak- ment in such Matters. ing a hero of himself. He was not. He was undermining the privileges, standing, and re- I refer now to the matters which the Govern- pute of this Parliament. ment describes as urgent. It is absolute non- The nub of the matter is that the man who sense to suggest that some of the measures took the longest time ever for a speech in this which were introduced last year and to which Parliament when it suited him, has now time management was applied, were urgent. introduced,' as he did last year, a system to give They were not urgent at all and that is the members no longer than five minutes' speaking problem. We do not have a definition of ur- time. What sort of fairness is that? None at all. gency, and as yet no speaker has said to the Government that he does not regard this mat- I was pleased to hear the Deputy Leader of ter as urgent. It is just a matter of describing the Opposition say a few moments ago that the legislation as urgent and the jack boots when we return to the Government benches we come in: A period of no longer than 20 minutes will not play tit for tat and we will allow the is allowed and no member may speak for more then Opposition a reasonable amount of time than five minutes on matters of great import- to debate matters. ance, matters which will affect the livelihoods The Minister has given US already a page of of the 1.5 million citizens of Western Australia. Bills which are due to come forward. Which of Somebody, on a whim, can decide to put a those are of critical urgency? The only Bills to measure through in the guise of an urgent Bill. be declared urgent will be those about which there will not be agreement and on which de- There are many procedures within our bate will be heated. As usual, we shall be most Standing Orders which enable the Government co-operative in regard to the Bills which need a to speed up the legislative process. Many quick passage. means are available, and ultimately, the Government can apply the gag if it wishes. The Last year at the third reading stage of the only thing this measure does is tighten the grip Local Government Amendment Bill there was of the Leader of the House on the proceedings. absolutely no discussion. In fact, the He has abused the privileges of this House preceedings went over time by a couple of min- more than has any other existing member. This utes because it took time to process the Bill. A Minister is once again taking a step whereby he harsh Opposition would have moved to dissent is trying to deny the Opposition the oppor- from the Speaker's ruling, but we did not do so. tunity to speak. That legislation has Probably not been passed correctly in this Chamber, but we took no ac- In many cases the legislation coming before tion in the matter. It was disgraceful that no us is much more complex than it has been in opportunity was available to properly, fairly, the past. Many items coming before the Parlia- and reasonably debate the clauses of that Bill in ment need more time than used to be allowed. the Committee stage and that no opportunity However, last year this Government decided to was given to speak to the third reading. cut the time available to private members from, The system has not Worked. We are totally 45 minutes to 35 minutes and today it has dissatisfied with the arrangements enforced introduced a time limit of five minutes on and imposed on us by way of this so-called speeches on matters as vital as the question of emergency arrangement. It is a system which how long Opposition members should have an tears into tatters the book of Standing Orders; opportunity to speak. it makes a complete farce of it. It is not what 294 294[ASSEMBLY]

Parliament is about. We bitterly resent this at- no time to speak about rating. This is why we tempt to gag us and we resent it so strongly that had such a large number of speakers-I forget we shalt make sure that when we are in how many there were, but it was something in Government we shall not be party to this sort the order of 10 or 12, only about half the size of of jack boot tactic. Where is the co-operation the Opposition. I can recall in earlier days, about which the Leader of the House talks? when the Labour Party was in Opposition, it There is no co-operation. had many more speakers on particular mat- We first read about this measure in The West ters-matters which I would have thought were Australian of 14 March 1984. The Leader of not of equivalant importance-but that was its the Opposition had not been consulted. The right. If every member on this side wants to first he knew about it was to read in the news- speak on every motion before the House, that is his right. It is unlikely to happen except when paper that the Government intended to move matters to the new system. What sort of consultation is of tremendous moment are brought be- that? That is President Sukarno of Indonesia's fore the House. This particular motion and the brand of democracy. one that was before the House this morning are motions which should have been addressed by "I decide what you are going to do. You may a great number of members, because we on this say what you think about it and then you wilt side of the House are about to be increasingly do what I want you to do." That is all we have gagged. I think it is in Spain where people have had from the Leader of the House. In my view, their tongues torn out and are then garotted. he has actually destroyed the standing of the That is an example of what is happening here position of Government Leader of the House. I today with this motion. The tongue of the Op- doubt if members will be able to find in the position has been torn out, and it has been history of the position of Leader of the House a garotted, and the Leader of the House is now man who has been so unresponsive to the needs standing on our faces as well. of the Opposition. I do not believe proper dis- Several members interjected. cussions are held; in fact, I think the whole arrangement is a charade. The discussions the Mr CLARKO: That is exactly what is Leader of the House holds with members of the happening here. The member for Welshpool Opposition on matters such as these are mean- has been in this Parliament for a long time and I have listened to his speeches, some of which I ingless. have thoroughly enjoyed and some of which I I do not think the Leader of the House has have not; it is fair enough for any member of come up with a reasonable allocation of times Parliament to be like that. However, in the at all. There has been something of a problem, I days when I first came here, when, the member suppose, in trying to determine whether the for Wetshpool spoke at great length, when he times should be taken as a whole or whether held the key leadership position of his party there should be separate times for each party. I before he was stabbed in the back-unfairly, in think that proves how bad a motion this is my opinion-he spoke at some length and on because people are unable to determine the many occasions I found his speeches quite times which should be allocated to the second interesting. The important point is that the reading stage, the Committee stage, and the member for Welshpool had the opportunity to third reading stage. It is very difficult for a speak, as had the member for Balcatta. who just member to determine in advance how long he interjected. Long before the modem trendies will take. While there are times when the Oppo- started to talk about the dangers of smoking, sition encourages its members to get up and the member for Balcatta went on about speak, at other times-for example, in the de- antismoking. I do not agree with him but I bate on the Local Government Amendment respected his right to speak all those years ago. Bill-we do not have to encourage any of our The member for Balcatta had the opportunity members to enter the debate. Many of our to speak at length under the Standing Orders members have been involved in the councils of and he was not in the sort of incarcerated local government and they were naturally keen position that this present Opposition has been to speak. It was an issue that affected every put in, not on a month-by-month basis or a adult in this State. year-by-year basis but on a morning and after- Another important matter in the Bill was to noon basis. do with rating. There had been an increasing The Opposition is losing the opportunity to crescendo of complaint about the rating system put forward its point of view and to speak up used in Western Australia, yet we had virtually and out. The Opposition is losing a most [Thursday, 22 August 1985] 2959 precious thing-our freedom of speech is being MR THOMPSON (Kalamunda) [3.13 p.m.]: taken away from us. We are copping the five I anm the patron of the eastern zone of the Royal minute speech through this legislation-the Lifesaving Association of Western Australia shortest time one can imagine. I wonder and in that capacity, I was invited to attend its whether there is any Parliament in the world annual general meeting to be held in St Brigid's that has such a time limit imposed on its mem- Catholic School in Lesmurdie last Sunday bers. night. I arrived at the appointed hour to find Mr Tonkin: Yes, the Houses of Commons in that the place was in darkness but as there were Britain and in Canada impose a 90-second three or four cars around the place I assumed limitation. there were some people already there and I found my way in, despite the fact that it was Mr CLARKO: What is that supposed to raining at the time. mean? Is there a time limit of three minutes I found my way into the school in the dark- somewhere? Ninety seconds, no wonder the ness; then someone appeared with a torch and Government is falling down. What is one sup- conducted me to a group of people standing, posed to do in 90 seconds? shivering, on the verandah of the school. They Mr Tonkin: It is going to be reduced to 60 admitted to me that the person who was to seconds and you can be succinct- produce the key to allow people to get into the Mr CLARKO: What can room where the meeting was to be held had not one say in that turned up. So we waited and time? Good afternoon? Nod one's head, take a waited and then completely ovine position and baa? That is all eventually they said that they would.hold their one can do in such a short time. We will be annual general meeting on the verandah of the pressing buttons shortly to convey our position. school. By this time it was pelting down with hail. I can assure the House that this was the This is a most unfair motion and it will take shortest annual general meeting that I have away from the Opposition the right to express ever attended. an opinion. That after all is why we come to Mr Bertram: And probably the most ef- Parliament in the first place. Parliament in the ficient! main is open for the Opposition to have its say because the Government and the Executive Mr THOMPSON: Yes, it was. They had no have this sort of opportunity in any case. This difficulty in getting people nominated to fill the Government has the biggest media back-up, as- positions and members will know how difficult sistance, and advice of any Government in the that is at times. I hesitate to tell that story history of this State. This Government has the because I believe that will be the next thing that man there, the Leader of the House, will do to opportunity to hammer the Press left , right,' and centre until the Press of this State is punch- make it difficult for the Opposition to speak in drunk. this House. He will probably take the roof off and he will allow the heavens to open up and Parliament is the Opposition's opportunity we will have even less time in which to speak to speak, yet here we are in the first week of the because that is about the only thing that this parliamentary session and already the Govern- person has not done to reduce the opportunies ment is trying to give us the jack boot. It will for members of this House to have their say. not do. The Government will not get away with this. It might win the vote on this motion, but Mr Bertram: What about removing the wir- it will not be able to win in the long run, be- ing? cause this place is called Parliament which as Mr THOMPSON: I do not know about that. we all know comes from "parler,.. ".to talk". Lord Faulkner said, "If there is no need to change, then there is a need not to change", We should have the right to speak for a fair and there has not been any demonstration by amount of time because this particular motion, this Government that there is a need to change. which was applied last year and which failed In fact the statistics that were given by my miserably, denies us our proper rights. The deputy leader proved conclusively that there is chickens of this Government will come home no such need. to roost. The Government will suffer because it has taken away from the Opposition its very That was about the only occasion on which important right to speak. When we are returned this infamous sessional order was used to stifle to the Government benchecs-which is only a debate on a very weighty issue, and it befell the matter of a few months-we will not follow the Legislative Council to sort out the mistakes same practice because it is dishonest. that had been allowed to pass through this 296 296[ASSEMBLY]

House. On every other occasion when time has Mr Burkett: Exclude me from that. I am been allocated under the guillotine provisions working. we have not occupied that time, so clearly there Mr THOMPSON: The member for is no demonstrated need to have this type of Scarborough might be working, but he is not provision in our Parliament. We in this House working in the interests of democracy because are far more fortunate than those in many he is sitting on his bottom doing nothing about other Legislatures around the world. We have opposing this measure. enjoyed the opportunity over the years to speak Mr Tonkin: Of course he is. He is working on freely and with adequate time, but as a result of electoral reform because he is interested in two years of ham-fisted administration by the democracy. present Government, this House and the privi- Mr THOMPSON: There is no justification leges available to members of it have been very for the Government taking this step. It has not seriously eroded and it will be to the eternal been demonstrated that there is a need for shame of this Government that it has acted in change. The Government should stop trying to this way. force its will on members of this House. There is no way in the world that any gather- Question put and a division taken with the ing or meeting can function satisfactorily with- following result- out co-operation between the people who par- Ayes 23 ticipate in it. If there was greater consultation Mr Bateman Mr Jamieson between the Government and the Opposition, Mrs Beggs Mr Parker Mr Bertram Mr Pearce if we had the opportunity to participate in con- Mr Bridge Mr Read sultation and it was done with some degree of Mr Bryce Mr D. L. Smith goodwill, we would achieve a great deal. Mr Brian Burke Mr P. J. Smith Mr Terry Burke Mr Taylor How much have we achieved here today? We Mr Carr Mr Tonkin have sat here since 10.45 a.m. and all we have Mr Davies Mrs Watkins done is to argue the point about the moves the Mrs Henderson Mr Wilson Mr Hodge Mr Burkett Government has attempted to make. Nothing Mr Hughes (Teller) useful has been produced in all of that time. Noes 15 Mr Tonkin: That is your decision. You have Mr Blaikie Mr Mensaros been doing all the speaking. Mr Bradshaw Mr Rushton Mr Cash Mr Spriggs Mr THOMPSON: We were forced to take up Mr Clarko Mr Thompson this point because the Government is using its Mr Court Mr Tubby Mr Peter Jones Mr Watt muscle and it is misusing the authority the elec- Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams tors gave it to cause the Opposition to have less Mr McNee (Teller) ability to seriously debate in this House. I men- Pairs tally try to contrast what has happened now Ayes Noes with what would have happened if Govern- Mr Gordon Hill MrCrane ment Mr Tom Jones Mr Coyne members were on this side of the House. Mr Mclver Mr Grayden They would have raised all hell, and justifiably Mrs Buchanan Mr Old SO. Mr Troy Mr Trethowan Mr Evans Mr Hassell Mr Clarko: He would not call us a corrupt Mr Grill Mr Laurance Government, would he? Question thus passed. Mr THOMPSON: I do not know what he would have called us, but there certainly would ACTS AMENDMENT AND REPEAL not have been as neat an approach to it as we (TRANSPORT CO-ORDINATION) BILL have shown today, although we have had one Introduction and First Reading or two speakers on this side- Bill introduced, on motion by Mr Tonkin Mr Bertram: Whom do you call "we"? (Leader of the House), and read a first time. Mr THOMPSON: It is interesting to note SELECT COMMITITEE INTO SMALL that the backbench members of the Govern- CLAIMS TRIBUNALS ment who ought to be as concerned about this matter as we are, are sitting mute in their seats. Requirement to Report I am talking about those members who are On motion by Mr D. L. Smith, resolved- present in the House, because a high percentage That the Select Committee which was of them are simply not here. appointed during the Second Session of [Thursday, 22 August 1985]29 297

this Parliament to inquire into Small revenue from providing services to sundry or- Claims Tribunals and which was, by ganisations on a cost recovery basis. Current resolution of 18 April 1985, empowered to examples include- continue its activities for the balance of the (a) Servicing of privately-owned fire ap- Thirty-first Parliament, is by this resolution required to report on 31 pliances; October 1985. (b) training in fire protection matters; and (c) emergency services other than fire; for example pumping out flooded base- FIRE BRIGADES AMENDMENT BILL ments. Second Reading The WA Fire Brigades Board maintains equip- MR CARRt (Geraldion-Minister for Police ment, manpower, and specialist skills in all and Emergency Services) [3.30 p.m.]: I move- areas related to fire protection, rescue, and the handling of hazardous chemical emergencies. That the Bill be now read a second time. From time to time both the private and public The Bill seeks to amend the Fire Brigades Act sectors seek the assistance of the brigade for the in four principal areas. These are amendments pro&Asion of training in facets of these to provide for- specialist skills or in the use of some related (a) An employee representative on the equipment. For example, harbour masters from Western Australian Fire Brigades isolated ports and mining companies who Board; maintain a Fire protection capability for their workplace often request assistance in training (b) specific powers to undertake a wider personnel. range of fire-related services, includ- ing private sector training, and to The board is also strengthening its commit- charge a fee for these additional ser- ment to the education of the public in fire vices; safety, and has recently opened a fire safety (c) recouping costs of technological devel- education centre. opments through their sale to other Apart from the monetary advantages, the ad- user organisations in the areas of ditional activities referred to would generate systems and equipment research and employment opportunities for firefighting per- development that have a market be- sonnel who through injury or other disability yond their use in this State's fire ser- are unable to perform normal duties. vice; and (d) the use of rolls maintained by the This Bill provides specific powers for the Valuer General pursuant to section 26 board to undertake these roles, to make charges of the Valuation of Land Act for the where applicable, and to receive voluntary gifts purposes of apportioning local govern- of money and equipment from the community ment contributions to the board's op- when appropriate. erations. The third initiative is a very exciting pro- In relation to employee representation on the posal as it provides tangible evidence of the Western Australian Fire Brigades Board, the benefits to be gained from supporting techno- Bill provides for the appointment of an em- logical research in the public sector, which is ployee representative elected to the board by something this Government has strongly permanent employees, and increases the num- supported. The WA Fire Brigades Board is ber of board members to 12. This provision IS heavily committed to the development of in keeping with the Government's objective of systems and equipment, including com- encouraging a greater degree of employee par- puterised data and communications systems, ticipation in decision making. This initiative directed to improving the efficiency of the brig- Will improve the efficiency of the fire service by ade. Many of these developments have a providing a higher level of practical expertise marketable value beyond their immediate use to the board's deliberations. within the fire service. This Bill empowers the The proposal to provide specific powers to board to recoup some of the cost of such devel- charge for certain services to a degree re- opments as an offset against the cost of provid- inforces previous practice where the Western ing an effective and efficient fire service to the Australian Fire Brigades Board has obtained general community. 298 298[ASSEMBLY]

The remaining provision is to replace refer- As far as stamp duty is concerned, in 1983- ence to water rateability as a means of ap- 84 an amount of $158.8 million was collected, portioning contribution apportionments be- which was an increase of 28.8 per cent on the tween local governments with valuations previous year. In 1984-85 collections increased contained on the roll maintained by the Valuer to $17 6.8 million, an increase of 11. 3 per cent General. Local government contributions on the previous year, Again, that is an increase towards the WA Fire Brigades Board operating ofj ust over 40 per cent in two years. costs in united fire districts are currently ap- The financial institutions duty, of course, ponioned according to "gross rental value in started its infamous journey mid way through force under the Valuation of Land Act 1918, of 1983-84, and raised $16.5 million for the all land subject to water rates". The valuation Government; but in the last financial year it roll maintained by the Valuer General does not raised $35.2 million. discriminate between land subject to water rates and that which is not. It has proved im- In 1983-84 the amount of payroll tax col- practical to accurately relate water supply lected was $267 million, an increase of 5.3 per records to the valuation rolls maintained by the cent on the previous year. In 1984-85 it rose to Valuer General. $284.4 million, an increase of 6.3 per cent. This Bill provides that the valuation roll I will now discuss these taxes and charges in maintained by the Valuer General pursuant to more detail. In the case of land tax, while we section 26 of the Valuation of Land Act shall be have had a reduction of 10 per cent guaranteed local government for the 1985-86 Budget, this guarantee must be used in the apportionment of critically examined. We must get back to a re- contributions to the board whether or not the vision land is subject to water rates. of the tax base scale, because this tax, coming in over a three year period, will shortly I commend the Bill to the House. equal, on some properties, that of local Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr government and water rates charges. Indeed, I Thompson. am told that in the city block the land tax could be as high not only as land rates and water rates ADDRESS-IN-REPLY: FOURTH DAY but also council rates. Motion When RID was introduced, I understood that Debate resumed from 21 August. it was brought in because of Budget difficulties. However, it was also stated at the time of its MR WILLIAMS (Clontarf) [3.35 p.m.]: I introduction that the Government hoped to be wish to join in the debate on the Address-in- able to do away with some of the smaller stamp Reply, and to concentrate most of my remarks duty charges-or selected charges, I think they in an endeavour to assist the businessmen of were called. But we all know that this has not this community. The Government needs to in- happened, so for the sake of the businessman, fuse more money into the business sector so particularly the small businessman, I that the business community may itself gain recommend to the Government that in its confidence and in turn be prepared to employ forthcoming Budget it consider removing the more staff. However, because of the cut-back in stamp duty paid on cheques. forward estimates by the Federal Treasurer, it is reasonable to assume that there will be a As that duty now represents a charge of 10ck reduction in Federal funds. Therefore, the only on each cheque, its abolition would greatly re- way the Government can meet its Current com- duce the cost to a businessman over a 12- mitments is to increase taxes. Over the last two month period. It would perhaps give him the years taxes have had a crippling effect on busi- incentive and the extra money to employ more ness. The Government has not had the ability people. to maintain employment, nor to Create new I would also like the Government to consider jobs. very seriously the removal of stamp duty on I will now cite examples of some of these workers' compensation premiums. It is set at a taxes. In 1983-84 land tax receipts were $42.6 rate of three per cent. In addition to the million, which was an increase of 21.5 per cent astronomical charges and imposts placed on on the previous year. However, in 1984-85 land business, the imposition of stamp duty on tax increased to $51 million, representing an workers' compensation premiums represents a increase of 19.8 per cent on the previous year. very large amount. Members will see that over a period of two Mr Bertram: What is the total stamp duty years there was an increase of over 40 per cent. now? [Thursday, 22 August 19851 2999

Mr WILLIAMS: The stamp duty is set at a Fire Brigades Board, but also via his rate no- rate of three per cent, but we need to consider tices. Councils pay their premiums from rates that a small business may employ 12 people. received from householders and businessmen. Workers' compensation premiums have We all know that the rates on businesses in increased to such an extent that it may cost a municipalities are far greater than on the minimum of $1 000 for each employee. The householder. Thus, the businessman cops it stamp duty on that premium would then be twice. The Governiment should do something $300. The small businessman can do without to alleviate that problem. that charge. I would also like the government to accept Mr Bertram: What is the total for the State the fact that duty on leases is not applicable to under that heading? outgoings. Mr Justice Olney ruled, when this Mr WILLIAMS: I would not have a clue, but had been tried in the past, that it was not a it would be sizeable bearing in mind that while legitimate impost. I ask the Government not to the premium costs $1 000 for relatively minor legislate to rectify that but to leave it as it is. industries, it would cost $2 000 for each person I turn now to financial institutions duty. Not for each year of employment in the large manu- much can be said about FID except that it is facturing industries. This in itself places an im- most detrimental to business. We have post on the employer. opposed that tax from the outset. It is another In addition to stamp duties, we have also to ongoing tax that prevents the employer from consider other insurances designed to safe- spending money elsewhere, particularly on guard businesses, such as fire insurance. Fire wages. I reassure this House that when we are brigade charges amount to two-thirds of the returned to Government that tax will be premiums for these policies. That is one heck abolished. of an amount to pay out. In other words, the While the Government can say that it businessman is charged 8 h per cent of his pol- reduced the rate of payroll tax from five per icy for ordinary burglary charges and stamp cent to 4'/2 per cent in this financial year, it duty, but his fire brigade charges make up two- must do so with tongue-in-cheek because it has thirds of that premium. Only today I received a increased its income. Naturally as the letter from the City of South Perth on this very workforce increases so payroll tax will increase. subject, which reads- There has to be a remarkable reduction in these Dear Sir, charges if we are to expect employers to employ WESTERN AUSTRALIAN FIRE BRIG- more people. ADES BOARD: CONTRIBUTION It was suggested in today's paper that any Council has received its notice of assess- company which employs juniors should be ment for the above. exempt from paying payroll tax for that junior. At $163,243.39 this year, it represents a Payroll tax also should not be levied on such 10.9% increase. allowances as loadings and meal money. It also should not apply to wages paid for time worked This seems to be an excessive increase on late night shopping nights and Saturday and, bearing in mind that Council has mornings. If we want an employer to create made every endeavour to keep its rates in- more employment we must give him some ben- crease down (5.9%), we would appreciate efits and concessions. any action you can take to have the contri- bution reduced. Another impost placed on business is It does seem that the rate of increase is workers' compensation premiums. Consider- well above that which the Premier has ation must be given to amending the Act. The indicated as being acceptable for Govern- level of compensation paid today is set at 100 ment instrumentalities, and with this in per cent for employees. This has had a great mind, our Budget anticipated an increase deal to do with the premiums for workers' com- of only 6% approximately. pensation going through the roof. They are so expensive that some small businesses have Any action you can take in this matter closed their doors because they could not would be appreciated. afford to pay such high costs. The only way out Members must bear in mind that the small is to reduce the margin. We have to reduce it to businessman is being belted behind the ears not 80 per cent or 90 per cent of take-home pay. only with stamp duty for his fire insurance and We would then find that people who could get having to pay two-thirds of his premium to the back to work earlier would do so. It would 300 300ASSEMBLY] certainly reduce the payout in workers' com- retail sector has the capacity to create employ- pensation and would also reduce the premium ment. The retail industry is the largest single paid by employers for workers' compensation employer of school leavers, and barriers to the policies. employment of juniors should be removed so Another important aspect with respect to that they may gain experience in the work force workers' compensation payments is that they and a wage. Unless those barriers are removed, must be restricted to injuries received during unemployment will remain and the experience working hours. We all understand what I mean. will be non-existent. Certain people in this town have taken advan- I remember speaking in this House five or six tage of the Workers' Compensation Act to years ago and I warned members about what claim for injuries incurred outside working was happening with regard to junior em- hours. That is unfair and means that the ployees-that the spiralling cost of wages businessman must pay higher premiums. Also would put juniors out of jobs. That has now if premiums were worked out on the basis of happened and it is not funny. Not even Mr net pay they would be reduced. This would Hawke is laughing about it. He is very con- help the businessman retain some money in his cerned about the situation and so he should be. pocket. How the wheel turns. I remember when Mr In addition, normal Government health Hawke was an advocate for, and then President subsidies should be paid in workers' compen- of the ACTU and even when he first became a sation cases. member of Parliament he was still advocating higher and higher wages. Now the chicken has Mr Bertram: Do you want to discontinue come home to roost. On the radio this morning cover for travelling to and from work? I heard some union representatives warn Mr Mr WILLIAMS: I did not say that, but there Hawke not to try to stop wage increases or they is an anomaly. If we do not have control over would bring their muscle to bear. Only when the times Workers' compensation applies some- we have overcome the problems attributed to one is likely to fall down the back steps on a these high wages and imposts will the work Saturday night, break his armn or badly sprain it force be able to re-employ juniors. The only and go to the doctor on Monday. It is amazing way it can be done is firstly, for juniors to how people can never find doctors on a week- accept a reduction in wages and to get back to end. They then say that they tripped over on the days when junior rates applied from the age their way to work. That is a simple example, of 16 years and full salary was reached at the but it happens all the time. age of 21 years. We must return to that situ- ation if we want employment for our young On the expenditure side, during the past few people. years private enterprise has been asked to pull in its belt, trim its expenditure, and become Another important point is that we must do better management-wise in order to survive. away with the 17.5 per cent loading on holiday Unfortunately that has not been the case in the pay. We must cut out the penalty rates on Government sector. There does not appear to loading applicable to work done during normal be any accountability with regard to its ef- trading hours. ficiency. If the private sector is asked to tighten I have already mentioned that we must have its belt it is reasonable and fair to assume that a review of the broad coverage of workers' the public sector should be asked to do like- compensation payments. Taxes and charges wise. We on this side of the House believe in and local government rates, especially those the principle of a balanced Budget and based on valuations, must be kept in check. If restricting expenditure growth and Govern- these charges continue to rise wages, being the ment charges to those of the previous year in first direct cost of business, will be the first to real terms. That is terribly important. We be- suffer. When wages are on the increase, em- lieve in a realistic planned reduction in the size ployment is on the decrease. of the Public Service and the limitation of I now turn to the debacle of the last day or so statutory body charges to specified amounts, regarding the union and the Metropolitan particularly to ensure that an increase is no Transport Trust. l refer to the disgraceful act greater than the rate of inflation. by the union of depriving mothers of the I turn now to the subject of employment in drivers' assistance to put their prams on the the retail industry; it is the most labour inten- backs of the buses. What is this place coming sive area and nationally it employs to? What a disgrace it is that the union could approximately one million people. A healthy even dare attempt such a thing. What a dis- [Thursday, 22 August 1985]30 301 grace it is that the Government is supporting they decide to continue to do the courteous the union in its move. Where is Mr Burke on thing of placing those prams on the backs of this issue, the Minister responsible for women's buses and to show the courtesy to the public affairs? Is he supporting the mothers of this that they have shown in the past. However, I community? Not on your sweet life. So much am sure they will be able to hold their heads for his concern for mothers! high and to maintain their own self-respect. Where are the female advisers to Mr Burke? That is the most important thing of all; so I say Are they not advising him that the mothers to them, "Ignore the union rabble and get on need help? Where has the day of decency gone? with doing the job that you have done because Where are the elected female members of the you have been doing it well and courteously." Labor Party? They have been quiet in this In the few minutes remaining to me I point House during the last two days. Not one has out that there is a growing concern in the elec- stood to her feet to defend the mothers of this torate about law and justice. A survey was State. So much for the concern they show for undertaken, not very long ago, by the Citizens the mothers of Western Australia who are Against Crime Association. This survey came pushing prams. This event was so disgusting out with some overwhelming figures. It showed that the Editor of The West Australian this that some 90 per cent of the people who were morning took the union to task, and I quote quizzed on this matter in this State believe that from the editorial as follows- the judicial system fails to provide adequate There was a time when such ordinary, protection for persons and property. Nearly everyday acts of helpfulness were a natural 100 per cent of those persons wanted stronger part of life, carried out unthinkingly and penalties for criminals. They said that the even cheerfully. Society was by no means present penalties were far too lenient. selfless, but it was not riddled with the It is very interesting to note-and these are unbridled selfishness that has become the not my figures, they are from the survey results hallmark of contemporary life. of the Citizens Against Crime Associ- The editor is reflecting the views of the people ation-that 70 per cent of the people of Western Australia. The editorial con- interviewed want the reinstatement of capital tinues- punishment. It is also interesting to note that Drivers must stay behind the wheel, it is 50 per cent of the people who were interviewed decreed to (a) combat vandalism and were themselves respondents of crime. I just larrikinism, (b) ensure money is not stolen want to say that when we are returned to from cash-boxes, (c) counter the risk of Government, law and order will take top pri- handbrake failure, (d) prevent driver ority so that when a person walks about in the stress, (e) extend the working life of the community, and when he has left his own driver (0) ensure passenger safety, (g) any- home, he will feel secure because a Govern- thing else that springs to mind. ment forned by the Liberal Party will, through its Police Force, deal very severely with people What utter humbug. who break the law. I also remind the Government that on Radio 96FM this morning, during the "IHot line" pro- Mr Bryce: Probably a lot of people thought gramme, not one person came out in favour of that the gas chamber was a good idea, but the union's action. There was a deluge of tele- would you support it? phone calls from people condemning the union Mr WILLIAMS: For some of the criminals and the Government for their action in this around here, I would not be opposed to using matter, but not one person was in favour of it. it. I am talking about the gas chambers in the American and not in the Bergen-Belsen sense. Let me say this, and I am very pleased to say it because I have great faith in the drivers. I have been careful not to mention them because Amiendment to Motion over the years they have built up a reputation I move- for being decent, courteous, and helpful men. it was very pleasing to note this morning that on That the following words be added to Radio 96FM many of those drivers also rang in the Address-in-Reply: to say that they had disapproved of the action but we regret to inform Your Excel- of their union. I congratulate those drivers, and lency that the Government has not I say to them that we on this side of the House given sufficient attention to the plight will give them all the support they require if of the large number of tenants and 302 302ASSEMBLY]

ownerloccupiers throughout the State so-called negative gearing in the private sec- in a way which would have brought tor's supply of rental accommodation and its the solution nearer to the problem. plan to introduce a capital gains tax. A considerable number of families are Let me explain in simple terms why negative seeking to obtain and/or maintain rental or gearing-combined with the absence of capital purchase accommodation with reasonable gains tax-is so important for both individual terms yet they are threatened with a de- and institutional investors to create and main- cline in the number of badly needed rental tain rental housing accommodation. units and an increase in mortgage interest rates, impairing the capacity of It would be denying the characteristic human owner/occupiers to service and repay their nature to expect people-even the most ardent housing loans. theoretical socialists-to act against their best interests when investing their money which In particular the Government has they may have in excess of their need for neglected to make an energetic and well self-sustenance. reasoned representation to the Common- wealth Government in order: The best interest, of course, is to reap the highest possible profit in the least risky way. (a) to maintain the full tax For a very long time now, possibly for a gener- deductibility of interest paid by at ion, the interest realised in the form of dom- owners of tenanted homes estic rental income from capital invested in real (negative gearing); estate of any kind has been far below the (b) not to legislate for capital gains interest which is paid on cash investmerts of tax and announce this clearly to different kinds. Cash investments in the form allay the investors' fears; of deposits to banks, building societies or any financial institutions, through cash unit trusts, (c) to introduce economic measures on the short-term money market, through which be kerbing the rise of in- commerical bills, through Government or flation would prevent home loan semi-government instrumentalities, gilt-edged interest rates to increase. bonds, most shares, or even through property MR MENSAROS (Floreat) [4.06 pin.]: I connected mortgages, fluctuate between 10 per second the amendment and in doing so I place cent and 17 per cent. on the record that I would like to attack the withdrawal of the tax advantages regarding In contrast, during the last 20 years or so, negative gearing which affects housing, and in gross domestic rent return on the full capital particular rental housing. invested in real estate never exceeded about seven per cent and fluctuated-to a lesser ex- I preface my comments however by saying tent than cash investments-at between four that it is quite strange that the Government and five per cent. vigorously attacks the Opposition's plan for privatisation of some of the SHC rental hous- Unlike other cash investments, however, this ing, that it paints it in gloomy colours, wants gross return is, and always has been, still sub- people to believe that it means an end of cheap ject to outgoings such as expenditure on rates, rental accommodation. This of course is taxes, repairs and maintenance, and periods of unfactual, as the Opposition only wants to fos- vacancies, losing rental income, and spending ter, make it possible, and easy to acquire home on advertisements; plus the trouble in time or ownership by those who want it, and at the in agents' fees to manage the property by same time will save money for the Government collecting rents, and observing not negligible in the process without abolishing cheap or wel- Government rules and regulations. To digress fare rental accommodation. for a minute, it is rumoured that the Govern- ment intends to further extend these regu- It is passing strange that the Government lations and restrictions under the pious name and the Minister, in attacking this altitude, are of tenancy protecting legislation. trying to project themselves as saviours. of this system of rental accommodation; yet, at the Such outgoings represented increasingly same time, they have not even attempted to higher percentage of the gross rental as particu- criticise, condemn, fight, or explain the er- larly rates, utility charges and land taxes roneous drawbacks in the Federal Govern- increased proportionately. It could be said that ment's recent announcement of abolition of the in average they represent 20 to 25 per cent of [Thursday, 22 August 1985]30 303 the gross rent, thus reducing the income of the The $80 a week amounts to $4 160 gross total capital value of the property to three to yearly rent. After deducting from this for rates, four per cent net. charges, land tax, repair-maintenance and some vacant periods, say 25 per cent-that is Now I ask you, Mr Speaker, who in a sane $1 040-and it leaves a net income of $3 100, mind would invest money on a three to four which represents only four per cent of the per cent return-no matter how secure that in- $80 000, being the total capital value of the vestment might appear against other invest- property. ments-when, with much less trouble, with much quicker opportunity to withdraw the Our investor, though, as you will remember, invested capital, he could obtain four to five has only $20 000 equity, and borrowed the rest, times as much, that is 121to 14 per cent? $60 000, for, say, 14 per cent yearly interest rate. That cost him $8 400 a year, or a net The answer, of course, lies in the utilisation loss-after we take his $3 100 net rental profit of the advantages of both the negative gearing into consideration-of $5 300. system and the lack of a capital gains tax. In- stead of investing 100 per cent equity in the This $5 300 loss, however, he can deduct property, the investor can outlay sometimes as from his taxable income, which saves him an little as 10 per cent and borrow the balance. In additional 60 per cent-that is $3 180 in such an example, the investment will produce a tax-leaving him with a yearly loss of $2 120. loss instead of a profit; but a loss it is, which in Thus, during the five-year period of my the long term converts itself into a profit with example, the accumulated losses will be the least risk involved. $10 600. This loss should be calculated, how- Let us come back to a not quite extreme, very ever, at a higher amount, as the investor simple, concrete example. Let us not take a big borrowed to cover these losses and he paid, say, bad capitalist with millions of dollars, but just an aggregate of $1 200 in interest on the refer to an individual with very humble assets borrowings. In this case, his total loss will be yet good income as he is in the last five years of $11 800. his working career, preparing for retirement. Assume now that at the end of the five years Let us compare roughly the five year the property is sold for, say, $104000 net, compounded yield of a $20 000 investment representing an appreciation of only 30 per when it is invested as cash on an average of, cent in five years, or a compounded result of say, 12 per cent interest, or in property before roughly five per cent yearly appreciation, and after the negative gearing and capital gains which is a rather guarded, realistic calculation. tax rules by Labor. Thus our investor will be left with $44 000 cash, or $24 000 profit over his invested In the first case, a cash investment yielding $20 000 for the five year period. an average 12 per cent interest calculated and payable quarterly, but provided the so Deducting the $11 800 loss in- calculated three monthly interest is added each curred-eccause of the borrowing-from the time to the capital, will result on this $24 000 profit will result in $12 200 final net compounded basis in approximately $26 000 profit. net at the end of a five year period. This is Looking at the third case, if someone were allowing for 60 per cent income tax having foolish enough to still invest money with the been paid each year on the 12 per cent interest same equity-borrowing ratio as in the above earning. I took 60 per cent, as this interest in- second example, after the tax advantages for come would be on top of the normal earnings negative gearing have been abolished his loss of the investor who, remember, is in a good would still be $5 300 per year, of which he salary bracket towards the end of his working could claim only the 60 per cent tax deduction career. on the net rental income, being $3 100; that is a In the second example, the same investor claim of $1 860. chooses to purchase a property with his That would give him a $3 440 yearly loss, or $20 000. The property, an old house in a near- compounded with 14 per cent interest rate paid to-city suburb, say Shenton Park, costs $80 000 for four of the five years, a total net loss of net and can be let for $80 per week. The inves- more than $19 000. In other words, he would tor thus paid 25 per cent equity and borrowed cash $5 000 after five years of his original in- 75 per cent of the net purchase price, being a vestment of $20 000, and would have lost the mortgage of $60 000. rest. 304 304(ASSEMBLY]

This is what the abolishing of negative gear- an institutional investor. The institution, how- ing means. ever, whether it is a superannuation fund or a But even if in all fairness we stretch the property trust, would not wait for 5 years but example so that we assume the investor has would reinvest the first available cash flow on more money and pays cash for the $80 000 the same negative gearing, thus creating new house in odir example, he shall make only an rental accommodation every year or so. insignificantly small profit. This of course would be made entirely im- In this case-again based on the same prem- practicable through the abolishing of the tax ises-he would be left with a yearly gross profit benefit emanating from the negative gearing of $3 100, and after 60 per cent tax, net profit and hence this large source for creating rental of $1 240; and that money, invested on 12 per accommodation will also disappear. cent return, would amount to $6 600 at the end I think I have shown clearly what a deva stat- of the five-year period. Added to this is the ing effect the Federal Government's decision to $24 000 capital gain, less 60 per cent capital abolish negative gearing will have on rental ac- gains tax, being a net capital gain of $9 600, commodation in Western Australia. giving a total net profit of-$6 600 plus I welcome intelligent contradiction of any of $9 600-$ 16 200 after five years. my statements, as long as it is based on facts But this is calculated on $80 000, not on like my figures are. $20 000 invested, hence to be comparable with Should the Government only utter an the other cases, on $20 000 it would be only a emotional conglomerate of words instead of quarter or $4 050 total profit. factual contradiction, and should it negate or Now let us summarise the four cases in the try to amend this motion I trust the public will example of investing $20 000 for five years, fully understand that the Government's real and see what the net profit at the end of this desire is to curb rental accommodation in line period would be, and what percentage that rep- with its nebulous socialist policies against the resents of the invested capital. interests of the people of Western Australia. I (1) On simple cash investments: $6 000 support the amendment. profit or 30 per cent. MR CASH (Mt Lawley) t4.23 p.m.]: I sup- (2) On property investment with negative port the amendment. A few minutes ago the gearing and no capital gains tax: member for Floreat invited the Minister for $12 200 Profit or 6t percent. Housing or any other member of the House to (3) On property investment, no 61t per contradict the statements he made. I do not cent tax deductable negative gearing believe that is possible because he gave a very clear and concise explanation of the problems and capital gains tax with the same ratio of borrowing: $19 000 loss or 75 that the abolition of negative gearing will bring per cent loss. to the rental market both in this State and throughout Australia. (4) A property investment with no In supporting the amendment which refers borrowing-where there is no gearing brie fly to the current Government's lack of at- at all-but a capital gains tax apply- tention to the plight of tenants and owner-occu- ing, leaves a profit of $4 050, or 20 per pier in this State I want to make a few Com- cent. ments about the recent tax summit and the I am sorry to keep the House so long with dry likely effects of the proposed capital gains tax figures. I wanted to leave on the record, how- that we hear about so often. I want to deal with ever, that in a simply everyday example of the sort of implications which the abolition of investing only $20 000 in rental property for negative gearing by the Labor Government will five years the difference between having or not have upon our rental market. having negative gearing is a 30 per cent profit The Government does not seem to under- and a 75 per cent loss. That is what abolition of stand the social impact of the proposed tax the tax concession for negative gearing means. changes it has been talking about for the last One cannot imagine after this example anyone couple of months. It fails to recognise the ap- proposing that people will invest in rental prop- palling social consequences which are likely to erty at all. flow from its actions. All members would be In the case of institutional investment, the aware of the massive queues at State Housing matter is even more serious. If one multiplies Commission offices. They will also be aware the figures in my example, they could apply for that when one rings SHC offices to try to get [Thursday, 22 August 1985]30 305 rental accommodation for constituents, one is greatest capitalist country in the world has always told there is an insufficient supply of already learned the lesson that capital gains tax money, and obviously an insufficient supply of is a revenue loser. accommodation, for those needy people, The other point that is confusing is that when Mr Parker: There is triple or quadruple the the Federal Government talks about a capital amount there used to be. gains tax-and we know many members op- posite support such a tax-it goes to great Mr CASH: The record will clearly show pains to try to assure us that the family homne is whether the Minister's comment is right or unlikely to be included in any future capital wrong. I am not interested in scoring points off gains tax. I suggest that such a tax would lead this Minister. I am interested in introducing to to an inefficient use of capital because many the House the fact that this Go~ernment does people would overcapitalise their principal not appear to recognibe the social consequences place of residence in order not to suffer a capi- of the various proposed tax chaniges. tal gains tax. In the long-term that will be an I am also suggesting that if negative gearing inefficient use of surplus moneys. is not to remain the queues at the State Hous- The member for Mt Marshall recently ing Commission offices will be much longer explained very clearly to this House the effect a than they are now. In short, the Government's capital gains tax will have on the rural com- proposals for capital gains tax and the munity. At the time he cited the case in the quarantining of negative gearing will seriously central wheatbelt, and because of the fluctu- damage the private residential rental market in ations in prices that were experienced in a Western Australia. single year a farm which sold for $2 10 per acre Members will be aware that the abolition of in the good times was resold in the lesser times tax concessions for negative gearing was for $ 100 per acre. Members will remember that introduced only a month ago on 18 July. the member for Mt Marshall clearly and cor- Already there are signs of a tightening of rental rectly showed that the owner of the property accommodation in the residential market in would be subject to a capita] gains tax at the Western Australia. A recent bulletin produced rate of $210 per acre and that he would have to by the Real Estate Institute of Australia con- raise the money because the property was tains statistics which show clearly that rental resold at $ 100 per acre. It appears to me that it accommodation is tightening right across would be possible for a capital gains tax to Australia. This is directly related to the Federal actually bankrupt a farmer. I do not believe Government's recent decision to abolish nega- that is the sort of incentive we should be tive gearing. offering our rural producers. At the recent tax summit the Prime Minister I would like to give members the definition was urging that any of his reforms must make of "negative gearing" in case they think it is an provision far the best possible climate for in- automotive term. The definition reads- vestment, growth, and employment. I cannot Negative gearing is the pract ice by which understand how he can marry that statement interest charges on loans used to acquire with the one he made a few days later when rental properties exceed the income from negative gearing was abolished. It seems to me the propenty, with the excess being applied it is not possible to achieve the economic to reduce taxable income from another growth and stability he talks so much about if source and thus effectively subsidising the we continue with the restriction on negative taxpayer's acquisition of a capital asset. gearing. I have had discussions with people from the Capital gains has often been talked about, real estate industry in Perth and it is apparent but I believe it is likely to act as a disincentive that the abolition of negative gearing has on both local and foreign investment markets. caused not only a downturn in the real estate it will force investors away from Australia at market, but also a reduction in the selling of the very time we need them to ensure that properties. some economic growth continues. It is The member for Floreat has pointed out that interesting to note that the United States and people will not invest money in property if they Canada have recently moved to reduce capital believe they will not receive a reasonable re- gains tax rates in order to try to encourage turn. Negative gearing will cause investors to further investment in those countries. We often substantially increase their equity in property if say the US is a capitalist country; I suggest the they do not want to be caught out. 306 306[ASSEMBLY]

It is interesting to note that negative gearing I suggest to members that as a result of this came into operation on 18 July and members decision on negative gearing Police Force, will recall that 12 months ago the Common- teaching and armed services personnel will be wealth Government altered its taxation laws to forced into the situation of having to sell their enable corporations to offset their income. It principal place of residence-the homes they appears that the Commonwealth Government had hoped to return to when they had finished does not wish to be consistent because 12 their term of duty in country areas-because months later it bans negative gearing and they will not be able to afford to make the loan applies it to individuals. repayments as the situation stands. It is fair to say that in the past 10 years in the From the comments I have made it is clear to Perth metropolitan area we have had some sort see that the losers as a result of the abolition of of growth in the rental market. Without that negative gearing and the imposition of the growth there is no question that the Govern- proposed capital gains tax will be the young ment would probably have spent up to $300 people because it is they who are seeking rental million per annum just to offset that which has accommodation. In the long term we will find now been spent in the rental market. It appears Government personnel who are on transfer to me that negative gearing will choke off the forced into selling their principal place of resi- supply of rental properties which we all know dence because they will be unable to pay both are desperately needed. the mortgage and the invidious debt that will It also appears that the negative gearing issue be imposed as a result of negative gearing. will cause a downturn in the building industry. Just at a time when people in the building in- I support the amendment. dustry were beginning to think they were get- ting on top of some of their problems they find MR COURT (Nedlands) [4.37 p.m.]: I also that the Commonwealth Government intro- support this amendment and will refer to the duces a regulation within the taxing system arguments of previous speakers. The member which will have an adverse affect on the indus- for Mt Lawley spoke at length about the prob- try. lems these taxes will create for people who are transferred in their occupation. In particular, As a result of the introduction of the negative he referred to the proposed capital gains tax gearing regulation, rents are likely to rise and and to negative gearing. there is no question that investors will not be prepared to build additional accommodation The Minister for Housing must be very con- to provide for the future. cerned about some of the changes that are it is also interesting to note that the occurring in the housing industry which in turn people the State and Federal Government often will affect the supply of rental housing in the claim to support-teachers, armed services marketplace. There is always a tremendous personnel and members of the Police demand for rental housing, as the Minister Force-are the very people who will be affected would be well aware. The combined series of as a result of the abolition of negative gearing. measures that will be introduced will have a As teachers move around the State on transfer dramatic affect on the level of available rental quite often they maintain a principal place of housing and the end result is that tremendous residence. If we use some of the figures pressure will be brought to bear on the State mentioned by the member for Florcat, a person Government to provide rental accommodation paying in the order of $1 50 a week as a loan for those people who require it. What will hap- repayment-in the initial stages of the mort- pen is that people, who for years have seen gage he will be paying $ 140 in interest and $10 rental housing as a safe form of investment, in the reduction of the principal-might be re- will change their conservative investing pattern ceiving only $ 100 in rent. He will be $50 Or $60 and will find areas of investment in which they a week-that is, $2 500 to $3 000 a can gain a larger return. In many ways I get the year-worse off because he is no longer able to distinct impression that certain forces are try- claim the interest that accrues on his mortgage. ing to wreck the rental market and to stop in- vestment in housing. Mr Watt: They also have to pay land tax. Mr CASH: Yes, as the member for Albany The capital gains tax, negative gearing pro- says he will also have to pay land tax as well as posals, and the new tenancy legislation which local authority rates and all the charges the State Government proposes to introduce, imposed by this Government on landholders. provide enough disincentives for people to get [Thursday, 22 August 1985])0 307 out of investment in the housing industry. In deter-mining the capital gains tax liab- addition, this year interest rates have been ex- ility, previously allowed depreciation tremely high, and that will harm the industry. in respect of both residential and non- With regard to the capital gains tax, the im- residential income-producing build- portant point is that many people have ings. invested in housing for rental purposes on the In other words, investors will not even be sure assumption that they will get low rental returns that they will get the depreciation allowance for the property but at the end of the day con- during the years they own property. That, of siderable capital gains will compensate for that course, creates another uncertainty for those low return and they will receive tax advantages people about to make an investment decision. such as those related to negative gearing. They have had these two incentives in mind when The article on the subject of negative gearing deciding to invest in a commodity which will continues- give a lower than usual return. But this incentive has been a fact of life In the August edition of the magazine and in recent years has become more published by the Real Estate Institute of widely used because of high interest rates Australia, a few pertinent comments were and high marginal tax rates. made about both the capital gains tax and nega- The tight rental markets in most cities tive gearing aspects. That group has much to do attest that the negative gearing tax advan- with the industry and should have a good tage has not of itself ensured an adequate understanding of how it will be affected. The supply of residential rental accommo- industry is concerned that many different dation. measures have been introduced this year, measures which will affect investment in hous- I believe that the Real Estate Institute of ing. It is not too sure what the result will be. Australia is sounding a warning on both forms The article states- of disincentives to people entering that market. How the widely touted capital gains tax It is certainly not one we should ignore. will further exacerbate the decline in the Mr Bertram interjected. private rental market is anyone's guess. Certainly supply will tighten even more Mr COURT: I want to refer to the point and put greater pressure on rents. made by the member for Balcatta about the types of people who invest in the housing in- On the question of negative gearing it states- dustry. It is also relevant to the comments I The effect on the already tight private shall make in connection with the tenancy residential rental markets in most cities legislation which the Government proposes to will increase gradually over the coming introduce. months and even years as potential prop- The report issued has scared many people erty investors seek alternative higher yield who had proposed to rent a property they own; investments. perhaps a second house or a block of flats. They I believe the Minister for Housing is also ex- have read the report and consider the proposed pressing concern about what effect both these conditions for property owners to be one-sided measures will have on the industry. The last and onerous. Before members opposite classify thing any Government needs is an increased these prospective investors as greedy landlords, shortage of rental accommodation, but quite they should spend some time talking to the simply, there will be less new investment in this people to whom I refer. The group involved area. formed the WA property owners association; A further concern is referred to in the article, and they have expressed a great deal of concern and I must admit I did not pick this up myself about the tenancy legislation, negative gearing in the media. it is as follows- changes, and proposed capital gains tax. These people are not wealthy large landlords. in many There is a stinger tucked away in the last cases they are people of average means who paragraph of the Treasurer's announce- have transferred and decided to rent their ment: houses, and as explained by the member for Mt Were a general capital gains tax Lawley, many burdens are being placed on introduced, consideration would have them. For example, they may be working in the to be given to the practicability of Pilbara, earning a good salary, and able to buy taking into account, in the context of a house in Perth that can be rented. 308 308[ASSEMBLY]

In a society as affluent as ours, it is surprising The current spokesman showed a great deal to note how many people are able to own a of ignorance about the subject he is supposed rental property. They have made the decision to be responsible for addressing. to put their surplus funds into rental accommo- What we have had from Opposition mem- dation because they can take advantage of the bers is a lot of stuff they have read in the Press negative gearing aspect and will receive capital recently. I do not know what the Opposition gains benefits at the end of the day. For this would do if members did not have newspapers reason they are prepared to accept low returns to depend on for their speeches. I think they for the level of money invested. would be pretty well speechless. The Federal Government particularly has Several members interjected. underestimated the number of these property Mr WILSON: If I could understand the owners; that is, people who own properties for member, I might be able to respond. I cannot rental purposes. As the member for Mt Lawley understand what he is saying; he is mumbling I said, the Government has underestimated also am sorry about that, but it is not my fault. the many problems which will arise when The real substance purported to have been people are transferred. Those employed by dif- introduced by way of this amendment is a bit ferent companies or by the Government quite often are required to relocate around Australia old hat. It includes moving sentiments which and they will now have to face the added bur- have been well-addressed by people much more versed in these matters than the members are, dens which these measures will introduce. and they have done it pretty poorly. I support this amendment because not one I hope the member for Floreat listens to this measure only will affect investment in the because it is a matter of some substance. The housing industry, but for some reason this year claim that this Government has not made a number of measures will be introduced, in- strong representations to the Federal Govern- cluding the one I have already ment on matters which rest on negative gearing mentioned-tenancy legislation-as further and capital gains tax as it threatens to affect the disincentives on top of the capital gains tax and interests of landlords and private tenants in negative gearing measures. WA is quite false and without any foundation With those comments I support the amend- whatsoever. In fact, as Minister for Housing I ment before the House. have made continuing representations to a number of Federal Ministers over a large num- MR WILSON (Nollamara-Minister for ber of months. Housing) [4.50 p.m.]: There was nothing in the Mr Mensaros: Why did you not publish that? Opposition's submissions, either in terms of Mr WILSON: I did publish it. That is the substance or presentation. The Opposition can- point I am making about the member and his not really be very serious about it. The member ignorance. I do not blame the member; as I said who moved the amendment did not refer to the before, he is the third in a row of failed substance of the amendment in any way what- spokesmen for the Opposition. soever in his speech. H-e simply talked in a rather badly constructed manner, with a lot of Several members interjected. waffle on a number of other matters. He was Mr WILSON: Listen to the quality of that! obviously not able to address the subject of the I shall quote from The Western Madl-I do amendment; he left that to the seconder, and not have the date of the article but the headline the seconder happens to be the third in a row of is "Nest Egg-" shadow spokesmen on housing matters since Mr Clarko interjected. this Opposition became the Opposition. Mr WILSON: We have the intellectual guru The Opposition is following the tradition it there! followed in Government. where no Minister Several members interjected. for Housing ever held that portfolio for more than about 12 months. That is a measure of the The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! priority the Opposition gives to housing issues. Mr WILSON: Let us get back to the subject There were three Ministers for Housing in the and away from the hot air of the member for Liberal Government, and we have had three Karrinyup. I shall quote from this article in spokesmen on housing in this Opposition. That The Western Mail headed "Nest Egg Hopes in is not a very serious approach to housing Danger". It is stated quite clearly that the Real issues. Estate Institute of WA is backing the State [Thursday, 22 August 1985]10 309

Housing Minister's plan to lobby Canberra coming increasingly scarce. We have made very with controversial tax reform issues. I do not strong representations because we are aware have the date, but it is many weeks ago because that those negative gearing implications will it was prior to a meeting I attended in the have quite drastic consequences for the private middle of July to make representations to the rental market. In fact we have been Federal Minister for Housing and Construction congratulated by the Real Estate Institute of with regard to these matters. I had issued other WA, and even by the Australian Real Estate Press releases of which the Opposition's Institute, for having taken up the case of people spokesman is not aware, releases which who unintentionally become landlords; that is, indicated I was diametrically opposed to these those people who are forced by the terms of measures for the reason that they would impact their occupation to move from their home to so drastically on private tenants in WA, that another pant of the State and in the interim they threatened rises in rent which would im- must rent out their properties. This Govern- pose negatively on those tenants, and private ment has made representations and has urged investors would be driven out of the market to the Federal Government to reconsider, if the extent that a greater weight to pick up the nothing else, the situation of people who are leeway would fall upon the public housing caught up in the negative gearing process in authorities. that very unfortunate way without any inten- It is not possible for public housing tion of becoming landlords. We have made authorities to consider picking up the leeway those representations and we have been Work- on private rental accommodation which in ing with the Real Estate Institute of Western WA accommodates between 20 and 25 per cent Australia. This Government is continuing to of all housing residents. meet with REI WA, and, in fact, we will meet with its representatives next week because they Instead, we have put forward to the Federal have agreed to work with us to monitor the on Government some proposals which we believe going actual effects negative gearing will have should encourage more investment in private on the rental market in Western Australia. The rental accommodation. We have proposed that Government will be at that meeting and will it gives consideration, for instance, to an in- take account of the monitoring that REIWA vestment allowance which would involve has done in the past in order to make more allowing a percentage of the cost of rental prop- representations to the Federal Government erty to be offset against income from another about the detrimental impact that these source. We have proposed an extension of the measures are having on the industry in Western depreciation allowance to existing properties. Australia and on the prospects for private ten- We have proposed an accelerated depreciation ants. rate which would allow a property to be written The State Government will continue to make off over a reduced period of time, say 15 years, these representations in order to see whether it rather than the proposed 25 years. is possible to make the Federal Government We have proposed a roll-ver provision for withdraw its proposals. This Government will capital gains taxation should that be Work equally as hard to ensure that other pro- introduced. We have tried to address the mat- posals are considered just as seriously to pro- ter in a practical way because we are aware that vide further incentives to private investors in the negative proposals of the Federal Govern- the rental market to ensure that that market is ment will impact in a way which will be to the able to continue to provide private rental ac- detriment of both tenants and investors in the commodation at least to the level that it has private housing sector in WA. provided in recent times. I have made a number of very strong rep- Mr Cash: I cannot follow the logic of that- resentations to the Federal Housing Minister Mr WILSON: I can understand that because and to other Federal Ministers to indicate that the member for Mt Lawley seems to have some we can see no sense in those measures which problem in following most of the matters which will drive more people into public housing and are raised in this House. impose greater costs on the taxpayer to support further Government finance in those areas. I believe that the representations this Government has made and the fact that it has That is not an alternative we can support, been able to work very closely, and with the and it is not an alternative that is feasible. It is approbation of REIWA, indicates it has been going to put even greater burdens on public able to do everything within its power to coun- expenditure in an area where the funds are be- ter the obvious detrimental effects that these 310 310[ASSEMBLY] measures will have on the private rental market current state of mind of the Opposition and and private tenants in Western Australia. I whether it is not its intention to proceed with think that at least it would have been more the grammatically incorrect and logically sense- appropriate had the Opposition nominated a less version of the amendment that it originally speaker who really understood what he was submitted to the House. talking about. Perhaps when the member for The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think that this Mt Marshall takes over as the Opposition House can probably proceed on the basis that spokesman on housing next week, next year or the changes I have made are probably the in- whenever, we might look forward at least to a tention of the Opposition anyway. louder stance from the Opposition on this sub- ject. May I say that this would probably be an Amendment put and division taken with the improvement on the contributions the Govern- following result- ment has heard from the three Opposition Ayes 15 Mr Blaikie Mr Mensaros members who have spoken in this debate so Mr Bradshaw Mr Old far. Mr Cash Mr Rushton Mr Court Mr Thompson The Government opposes the amendment. Mr Coyne Mr Trethowan Mr Hassell Mr Watt The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Before Mr Mac~innon Mr Williams putting the amendment, I wish to advise mem- Mr McNee bers that a part of the amendment would ap- Noes 22 pear to be grammatically incorrect, and to that Mr Bateman Mr Hughes end I have instructed the Clerk to make the Mrs Beggs Mr Jamieson following changes- Mr Bertram Mr Parker Mr Bridge Mr Pearce In paragraph (c), the word "be" should Mr Bryce Mr Read Mr Brian Burke Mr D. L. Smith read "by"; the word "kerbing" refers to Mr Terry Burke Mr P. J. Smith concrete edging and I have instructed the Mr Canf MrTonkin Clerk to change that to "curbing", which Mr Davies Mrs Watkins Mrs Henderson Mr Wilson means to restrain. At the end of paragraph Mr Hodge Mr Burkett (c) the words "to increase" appear to be (Teller) incorrect and I have instructed the Clerk to Pairs change these words to "from increasing"- Ayes Noes Mr Crane Mr Gordon Hill Mr Grayden Mr Mclver Mr Trethowan Mr Troy Mr Laurance Mr Grill Point of Order Mr BRIAN BURKE: Without wishing to ap- Amendment thus negatived. pear pedantic, I would simply like to point out that the changes you have made substantially Motion Resumed alter the amendment moved by the Opposition. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Tonkin I accept that from time to time the Opposition (Leader of the House). has demonstrated itself clearly in need of guid- ance, but I wonder whether the quite vivid [Questions taken.] changes that you have made do represent the House adjourned at 6.01 p.m. [Thursday, 22 August 1985])1 311

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (f) there was no increase in MTT fares; (g) the changes to various Westrail 21,48 to 50,65, 66,69,70. Postponed. rates are offsetting and no ad- ditional revenue is expected to be raised; TAXES AND CHARGES (h) 2.5 per cent increase in depart- Increases: Revenue mental revenue; 77. Mr HASSELL, to the Treasurer: (i) up to 3.9 per cent increase in (1) How much additional revenue is rents with no rent rise for aged expected to be raised this fiscal year as pensioners. a result of increases in charges announced recently for- (2) In respect of 1984-85- (a) the State Energy Commission; (c) Deficit of $40.8 million; (b) the Water Authority of Western (f) deficit of $35.3 million to which Australia (metropolitan charges); can be added reimbursements for (c) the Water Authority of Western social welfare concessions; Australia (country water, sewer- (g) deficit of $55.9 million to which age, irrigation and drainage can be added reimbursements for charges); concessions; (d) the fuel franchise levy; (h) cash surplus of $0.6 million from (c) motor vehicle licences; which needs to be subtracted (f) the Metropolitan Transport charges for interest and de- Trust; preciation. (g) Westrail; Estimates of the financial results expected for (h) Department of Marine and Har- 1985-86 are currently the bours marine charges; and subject of Budget dleliterations and audited statements for 1984-85 for (a), (i) the State Housing Commission? (b), and (i) are not yet available. The (2) What surplus or deficit is expected in relevant information will be presented 1985-86, and what surplus or deficit to Parliament when the Budget is was recorded in 1984-85 in respect of introduced. (1) (a), (b), (c), (f), (g), (h) and (i) A copy of the media statement above? outlining the increases in taxes and Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: charges is tabled for the information (I) The average percentage increase in of the member. charges was as follows- (See paper No. 109.) (a) 3.8 per cent-the additional cost to the average domestic electricity consumer is 32 cents per week 96. Postponed. and the average domestic gas con- sumer 15 cents a week; SIR LENOX HEWITT (b) the standard fixed charge was increased by 2.4 per cent and the Business Interests: Details consumption charge by 2.7 per 100. Mr PETER JONES, to the Premier: cent to 8.1 per cent, depending (1) Has he yet received the details of Sir upon consumption levels. Sewer- Lenox Hewitt's business interests age rates will rise by 2.9 per cent; which he publicly indicated on 10 (c) generally 2.9 per cent; May 1985 he would be seeking from (d) there was no increase in the fuel Sir Lenox? franchise fee; (2) If not, what efforts have been made by (e) there was no increase in motor ve- him to obtain the required infor- hicle licences; mation from Sir Lenox? 312 312ASSEMBLY]

(3) Has any reason been advanced by Sir (3) On 8 June 1985 I announced that the Ltenox for his failure to respond to the Department of Conservation and Premier's request? Land Management was to initiate the Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: preparation of a draft environmental and recreational management plan for (1) The Government has asked Sir Lenox the Lane Poole Reserve. to comment on whether there may be Public opinion was canvassed during any conflict of interest between his ac- the period April-July 1985 through a tivities as a consultant with the series of four workshops, formal pub- Government and other activities or re- lic submissions, and questionnaires. lationships in which he might be en- The draft plan is expected to be re- gaged. leased for public comment and review (2) and (3) An officer of the Department in November 1985. of Premier and Cabinet recently dis- Although the plan is still being cussed the matter further with Sir finalised it will not permit mining or Lenox Hewitt, and a reply is expected timber extraction in the conservation shortly. zone. However, the particular land uses that will be approved for the rec- reation zone will not be determined 109 and 110. Postponed. until all public comments and sub- missions have been evaluated. FORESTS: NORTHERN JARRAH FOREST Press Release 112,1t16, 118, 12 1. Postponed. Ill . Mr RUSHTON, to the Premier: (1) Did he issue a press release on 4 INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT: LOCAL December announcing that in the PARTICIPATION nort hem jarrah reserve now consisting IndustrialDevelopment Department of 96 000 ha of prime jarrah forest- 124. Mr COURT, to the Minister far (a) the reserve would contain 52 000 Industrial Development: ha centred on the Murray Basin Does the Department of Industrial to be known as the Lane Poole Development have the capability of Reserve; ensuring that major investment proj- ects in Western Australia have the (b) there will be no mining or timber maximum participation by local in- extraction in the conservation dustry? area of the jarrah reserve; Mr BRYCE replied: (c) there would be preservation of the unique and diverse ecosystem of To ensure maximum participation by the jarrah forest with lasting con- local industry, the Department of In- servation and recreation value for dustrial Development liaises closely future generations of Western with the Department of Resources De- Australians? velopment which has responsibility for administering the ratified agree- (2) Is he aware the people who use the ments by which major resource proj-. area for recreational, educational and ects in Western Australia are devel- tourist purposes are concerned that oped. the reserve zoned recreation is to be mined and logged? In the case of other major investment projects, the Department of Industrial (3) Will he give an unqualified assurance Development, through its domestic that the area zoned recreation will not market development programme, is be mined or logged? encouraging maximum participation Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: by local industry in these projects. The Department of Industrial Devel- (1) Yes. opment, in conjunction with other de- (2) Yes. partments and representatives of in- (Thursday, 22 August 1985]31 313

dustry, is conducting an assessment of and are they working with a Western the demand for an industrial supplies Australian consortium to achieve this office. The purpose of such an agency goal? would be to assist both contractors and local suppliers to meet each Mr BRYCE replied: other's needs on the basis of reliable information. The submarine builders from Germany and Sweden, together with the overseas combat system TAXES AND CHARGES: PAYROLL TAX houses-Rockwell International and Collections [Iollandse, Signaal (HSA)-sigied contracts with the Federal Govern- 13 1. Mr COURT, to the Premier: ment on 12 August to undertake com- (1) How many businesses in Western petitive project definition Australia paid payroll tax in- studies-PDS. The PDS will be (a) 1983-84; completed by 12 November 1986. (b) 1984-85? HDW and an Australian company, (2) What were the payroll tax collections Eglo Engineering, in concert with IKL, in the years- the submarine designers, and Ferrostall, form the German group to (a) 1983-84; which the member refers. (b) 1984-85? The Swedish group is led by Kockums Mr BRIAN BURKCE replied: with CBI, Wormalds, and AIDC as the Increases in tax collection reflect the Australian partners. strong upturn in the State's economic activity. The State Treasury estimates All of the Australian companies have that about 60 per cent of the estimated significant representation and partici- growth in taxation revenue in the last pation in Western Australia. two years is attributable to increased All the companies recognise and agree economic activity. Payroll tax collec- that- tion underlines this trend because the number of people in employment has There are significant strategic ad- risen strongly. The amount of tax col- vantages to the nation in lected has also increased even though establishing the principal base for this Government is the first to ever the new submarine force at cut the rate of payroll tax. The HMAS Stirling in Western answers are as follows- Australia. (1) (a) 7 338; The WA option is the only pro- (b) 7 405. posal which could provide (2) (a) $267.467 million; Australia with a fully integrated (b) $287.046 million. submarine facility which incor- porates assembly, crew training, operational support, and through- 137. Postponed. life support for the new submar- ines.

DEFENCE: SUBMARINES Finally, the Federal Budget statement by the Treasurer in- Contracts: Foreign Companies cluded the announcement that the 139. Mr COURT, to the Minister for submarine escape training facility industrial Development and Defence would be constructed at HMAS Liaison: Stirling, which further enhances Are the German and Swedish and strengthens the WA case. companies which are proposing to build Australia's new submarines planning to build in Western Australia 140. Postponed. 314 314[ASSEMBLY]

PORTS AND HARBOURS: DRY DOCK 1979-80-207 Albany. Soviet Proposal 1980-81-208 141. Mr COURT, to the Minister for Defence 198 1-82-2 12 1982-83-202 Liaison: 1983-84-192 Is the Government still considering a The average yearly amount to build a dry of wages proposal by the Soviets of people employed in woodchip pro- dock facility in Albany? duction. is not available. Mr BRYCE replied: The Western Australian Government 164. Postponed. has received no such proposal from the Soviet Government or its rep- resentatives and agents. LAND: RESERVES Additions FORESTS: WOODCHIPPLNG 165. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Conservation and Land Management: Royalties What additional areas of land, and in 162. Mr BLAIGE, to the Minister for what location, have either been added Conservation and Land Management: to or deleted from reserves formerly (1) What has been the yearly amount and held for forest or forest purposes. value to the State by- Mr DAVIES replied: (a) royalty; Changes since 1975-76 of areas of State (b) export value, forest, timber reserves, and freehold land of woodchips from- used for forest purposes have been as fol- (i) kanri; lows- (ii) manri, State Forest Additions Excisions (ha) (ha) in each year since 1979? 1975-76 1816 862 1976-77 *19 025 162 (2) What has been the average yearly 1977-78 1943 7 number and amount of wages of 1978-79 301 4 people employed in woodchip pro- 1979-80 13 537 840 duction in the period referred to in 1980-81 1 103 140 1981-82 589 316 (1)? 1982-83 t 292 227 Mr DAVIES replied: 1983-84 2 738 1 967 (1) Yearly amounts of woodchips have *Mainly due to the addition of 17 250 ha been- to the Milyeanup State forest (No 58) Year (i) Karri (ii) Marri Includes an area of 10 459 ha added to (MI') (Wn) State forest No 24 (Muja). 1979-80 120857 439958 1980-81 123 168 388438 Timber reserves established under the 1981-82 112410 256796 Conservation and Land Management Act. 1982-83 124306 287807 Net In-Net 1983-84 102663 342330 crease Decrease Yearly values of woodchips by royalty (ha) (ha) 1975-76 034 380 - have been- 1976-77 - 66 Year (i)Karri (ii) Marti 1977-78 519 - 1978-79 884 - 1979-80 70 029 254927 1979-80 247 - 1980-81 189705 598310 1980-SI 124 - 198 1-82 382090 872868 1981-82 16 - 1982-83 410775 951073 1982-83 105 1983-84 3699301 233604 1983-84 28 - Yearly values of woodchips by export * Includes 26 242 ha set aside as timber re- value are not available- serves in the gold fields. (2) The average yearly number of people Freehold land held in the name of the employed in woodchip production has Executive Director Department of Conser- been- vation and Land Management. (Thursday, 22 August 19851 3151

Net Net (3) Have any departments or agencies Increas Decrease (ha) (ha) employed extra personnel, either sal- 1975-76 781 - aried or wages, to "make up" for staff 1976-77 591 - having a rostered day off, and would 1977-78 518 - he detail? 1978-79 - - 1979-80 250 - (4) Would he state the effect, if any, on- 1980-81 - 1 1981-82 3 - (a) services provided and expected; 1982-83 - 2 (b) increased costs; and 1983-84 2 303 *Mainly Pardelup (c) to what extent? Mr DAVIES replied: FORESTS (1) to (4) The member will receive an Logging:- Volume answer in writing from the Minister 166. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for for Industrial Relations. Conservation and Land Management: (1) What has been the annual "take" of 18 1. Postponed, logs, per ml from- (a) hardwood; (b) softwood, GOVERNMENT INSTRUMENTALITIES forests under control of the Govern- "Government Gazette": List ment in each year since 1980? 188. Mr MENSAROS, to the Premier: (2) What has been the annual royalty paid (1) Is there a later list than the one to the Government in each category as printed in the 20 May 1985, (No. 38) in (1)? Government Gazette about the Mr DAVIES replied: administration of the departments, (1)(a) and (b) Hard- Soft- authorities, statutes and votes? wood wood (2) If not, where is the assignment to any 1980-81 1 391 960 201 552 Minister's responsibility for the West- 1981-82 1218 753 173 474 emn Australian Building Management 1982-83 1049 180 176 61$ Authority to be found? 1983-84 1134 756 198 281 (2) Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: 1980-81I 7 773 7761015 990 (1) The latest list of the administration of 198 1-8 2 9 098 2941 400 538 1982-83 8 317 6941233 802 departments, authorities, Statutes and 1983-84 8 911 7041 663 697 votes being placed under the control of the respective Ministers was printed in the Government Gazette on 167, 168, 170, 172. Postponed Friday, 10 May 198 5. (2) The responsibility of the Building GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES Management Authority is with the Minister for Works, and Lands and Nine-day Fortnight Surveys as detailed in the Government 176, Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister Gazette on 10 May page 1611. representing the Minister for Budget Management: (1) Would he detail those- EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING: (a) salaried officers; INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL TRAINING COMMISSION (b) wages staff, MinisterialResponsibility in departments and agencies under his portfolios who work a nine-day fort- 189. Mr MENSAROS, to the Premier: night? Which Minister will be responsible for (2) In each case what has been the cost of the Industrial and Commercial Train- this employment benefit? ing Commission promised to be estab- 316 316[ASSEMBLY]

lished in His Excellency the which satisfied the previous Liberal Governor's speech when opening Par- Government were in fact totally inad- liament? equate. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: For the most recent Commonwealth While it is anticipated that the Indus- election the habitation review work trial and Commercial Training Com- ensured that, unlike the 1983 State mission will be reporting to the Minis- election, the number of provisional ter for Employment and Training votes caused by inaccuracies in the there will be representatives of other roll was reduced to a minimum. 50 bodies on the commission, including per cent of the cost of regular habi- TAFE. tation review is a Western Australian obligation under the co-operative rol maintenance agreement and since a REGULATORY REVIEW OFFICE State election is due, habitation re- MinisterialResponsibility view work will be done. This will im- prove the accuracy of the roll to a level 190. Mr MENSAROS, to the Premier: well above that which existed prior to Which Ministers will be responsible 1983. The Government is for the office of Regultory Review endeavouring to have the Common- promised to be established in His Ex- wealth honour its obligations so that cellency the Governor's speech when the accuracy of the rolls will be opening Parliament? improved still further. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: The legislation is currently being ELECTORAL ROLLS drafted. Correspondingly, the port- Reprinting folio to which the off ice is to be assigned has not been determined. 192. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for Parliamentary and Electoral Reform: (1) What is the Government's plan of ac- ELECTORAL ROLLS tion regarding reprinting electoral Agreement: Breach rolls after enrolments close during the 191. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for legal procedures before the general Parliamentary and Electoral Reform: election now that according to him, How does he reconcile the statement the Commonwealth reneged in its re- in His Excellency the Governor's sponsibility regarding the joint rolls? speech at the opening of Parliament, (2) In particular, is the Government going viz: "The more accurate electoral roll to reprint the rolls from its own resulting from this agreement will ben- computerised sources and at its own efit all subsequent elections and refer- expense? endums" with his reported statement (3) If "Yes" to (2), what is the cost going on the same day accusing the Com- to be for such action? monwealth Government of breaching an agreement on the maintenance of Mr TONKIN replied: electoral rolls, having reneged on its (1) The matter of dispute between the undertaking to update electoral rolls Commonwealth and State Govern- and having an impact on the quality of ments has nothing to do with the clos- rolls in Western Australia in the lead- ure of the rolls or printing of them. up to the State elections? The State Government has been MrTONKIN replied: informed that no Commonwealth Since the co-operative rolls agreement funds will be provided for an annual with the Commonwealth Government habitation review in this financial has been in operation the accuracy of year. the State electoral rolls has been I regard the matter as negotiable and enhanced. There was an immediate am endeavouring to achieve agree- rise of 13 per cent in enrolments ment with the Commonwealth in the which indicates that arrangements matter of its share of the cost. [Thursday, 22 August 1985]31 317

The member may be assured that (2) If so, what is the Government's atti- habitation review work will be carried tude and policy to this request? out and that every endeavour will be Mr PEARCE replied: made to ensure that the Common- wealth meets its financial obligations (1) Yes. in the review under its arrangement (2) The State Government has introduced with the State. in 1984-85, initiatives to assist em- (2) Printing Of rolls is a State responsi- ployers in respect of their employment bility and will be paid for by the State. of apprentices. These initiatives have (3) The cost of printing rolls, including included payroll tax exemptions, computer use, approximates $80 000. workers compensation rebates on first year apprentices and assistance to group apprenticeship schemes. These WORKS: BUILDING MANAGEMENT initiatives and the WAACC proposal AUTHORITY have to be considered within a budget- Borrowings ary context. 193. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for Works: EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING (1) How much money in aggregate has Job Opportunity Schemes:- List been borrowed so far by the Western 195. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister Australian Building Management representing the Minister for Employment Authority for public works? and Training: (2) Can he detail the individual loans and (1) Can the Minister table a list of the their respective conditions? various schemes operating in Western Mr McI VER replied: Australia aiming to offer or facilitate (1) $88 417 000. training and/or job opportunities to coron Yield unemployed people? (2) Loan AmutMtrt (2) Could he make up the list in categories 3 443 000 113/95 3'30 13.30 2i 10000O000 114/97 13.251 13.30 according to the Commonwealth, 3 4 000 000 114/97 13 25 13.42 State or private Organisation 4 3000000 153197 12.85 13.35 5 I 000000 1(3/88 13.00 14.05 originated and run schemes? 6 1000000 1(19/87 13.00 14.06 7 5000000 1/10187 13.,00 14.05 Mr PEARCE replied: 8 5000000 110187 13.00 14.05 9 2 000000 U187 13.00 14.02 10 5000000 1/5/87 13.00 14.05 (1) and (2) For a listing of Common- 765000O 1(9/87 14.00 14.00 wealth programmes t refer the mem- 1112 500DO000i 1017 15.00 14.02 13 5000000 al1(5/8613.00 14.05 ber to the Kirby report. The infor- 10000000 1/10/86 1300 14.,00 mation on State originated pro- 1514 20000000 1/13/87 1300 13.95 16 1000000 1/19 13.00 13.83 grammes will be provided in writing 17 1l209 000 1/11/89 13.80 13.80 to the member in due course. 88417000 196 and 197. Postponed. EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING: APPRENTICES PORNOGRAPHY Automobile Industry: Commonwealth Subsidy Obscenity: Public Meeting 194. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister 198. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for the representing the Minister for Employment Arts: and Training: (1) When and where does he intend to (1) Is the Minister aware of the Western hold his public meeting on obscenity Australian Automobile Chamber of laws? Commerce (Ine) approach to the Fed- eral Minister for Employment and In- (2) Does he intend to chair the meeting dustrial Relations regarding the Com- himself? montwealth subsidy for automobile in- (3) If "No" to (2), who will chair the dustry apprentices? meeting? 318 318[ASSEMBLY]

(4) What is the Government's present Mr DAVIES replied: policy on the application of the law (1) and (2) I refer the member to the relating to obscenity? answer given to question 55 of Mr DAVIES replied: Tuesday, 20 August. (1) to (3) As indicated in The West (3) The Lotter-ies Control Act as amended Australian report I have referred the in the Parliament by Bill No. 43 of suggestion to my colleagues, the At- 1983. torney General and the Minister for (4) to (7) These questions pertain to the Police and Emergency Services. Upon administration of the Lotteries Com- receipt of their response the form of mission and a copy of the question has conference will be decided. been directed to the Minister respon- My feelings are, however, that in the sible for that Act, who advises me he first instance the matter should be dis- will obtain answers and reply in cussed by a small group directly con- writing to the member. cerned with the problem. (4) This is a matter of the application of a 200 and 201. Postponed. law and should therefore be referred to the Minister for Police and Emerg- ency Services. EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOL GAMBLING: LOTTERIES Esperance District:Home Economics Students Instant Lottery: Receipts 202. Mr MacKiINNON, to the Minister for 199. Mr RUSH-TON, to the Minister for the Education: Arts: (1) How many students at Esperance Dis- (1) What amount has been received from trict High School are currently study- the Sports-Culture Instant Lottery Ac- ing home economics? count for allocation to the arts for (2) How many periods a week, in total, years- are run for students in these home (a) 1982-83; economic studies? (b) 1983-84; (3) What is the current capacity of the (c) 1984-85? Esperance District High School in the (2) What amount has been allocated for home economics area to accommo- the arts for each of the above years? date this demand? (3) Under what authority has the Govern- Mr PEARCE replied: ment allocated only $3 million to the (1) 717. arts for the years 1983-84 and 1984- 85? (2) 122. (4) What was the total amount collected (3) Students studying the following from instant lotteries for each of the courses do not have access to the ap- above years? propriate facilities in order to com- plete the practical component of their (5) What was the value of prizes courses. This covers ten weeks at two distributed for each of the above three periods per week. years? i.e. (6) What was the cost of administration allocated against the fund for each of 2 classes Management and Family the above three years? Living-Year 9 2 classes Management and Family (7) What amounts and beneficiaries were Living-Year paid from the instant lottery collec- 10 3 classes Child Care-Year 10 tions for each of the years, other than 1 class Home Economics-Year for the 20 per cent directed to the arts I I and recreation- I class Home Economics-Year 12 1 class Home Management Studies- (a) 1982-83; Year I1I (b) 1983-84; I class Early Childhood Studies- (c) 1984-85? Year I I [Thursday, 22 August 1985]39 319

This represents a total of 220 periods' (3) When is it anticipated that they will be involvement in food and nutrition ac- completed? commodation over the full year. Cur- Mr PEARCE replied: rently food and nutrition facilities are not available for use by these students. (1) The additions comprise a hail, a science laboratory, a computer studies room and a social services suite. EDUCATION: TECHNICAL (2) The estimated total project cost is Aboriginal Access Programme $860 000. 203. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for (3) January 1986. Education: (1) Are Aboriginal Access Programmes being run in Tertiary and Further LIQUOR ACT Education colleges in Western Amendment Australia? 205. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister (2) If so, where are these programmes be- representing the Minister for Racing and ing run? Gaming: (3) How many students attend each (1) Is the Government planning to amend course in each school? the Liquor Act during this session of (4) How is this programme funded in Parliament? each case? (2) If so, will those amendments include Mr PEARCE replied: amendments that will allow the oper- (1) Yes. ation of a licensed restaurant tramcar in Western Australia? (2) Albany Geraldton Balga-(Family of (3) If not, why not? Skills Course) Leederville Mr PEARCE replied: IBunbury Midland Fremantle Thomnlie (1) Yes. Karratha Kalgoorlie (2) Not specifically. (3) Albany-41 Geraldton- 17 (3) The amendments planned for this Balga-75 Leederville-3 5 session are aimed at the separation of Bunbury-37 Midland-37 the judicial and administrative func- Fremantle-29 Thornlie-37 tions of the present Licensing Court Karratha-9 Kalgoorlie-2 I into a court and a liquor licensing (4) Three Sources: authority. (a) Education Department of WA. (b,) Commonwealth Department of EDUCATION Education. Student Travel Subsidy Scheme: Improvement (c) Department of Aboriginal Affairs. Note: The independent Colleges' 206. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for (Karratha and Kalgoorlie) pro- Education: grammes are Commonwealth-funded. Given that 1986 will see the introduc- tion of a four-term school year, will existing travel benefits for isolated EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOL students be improved to ensure students' travel entitlements are com- EsperanceDistrict: Improvements mensurate with the increased number 204. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for of terms? Education: Mr PEARCE replied: (1) What improvements are currently be- ins carried out at the Esperance Dis- Yes. I attach a copy of my Press re- trict High School? lease on the subject. (2) What is the total cost of these works? (See paper No. 110.) 320 320[ASSEMBLY]

EDUCATION: TEACHERS TRANSPORT: AIR Allowances:, Trainees Overseas Flights: Increase 207. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for 208. Mr MacKJNNON, to the Premier: Education: What specific action did the Western (1) Do classroom teachers receive extra Australian State Government take payments while trainee teachers are in which he claims has resulted in Thai attendance in their classrooms? Airways and Singapore Airlines in- creasing their flight frequencies to (2) If so, when was this practice Western Australia? introduced? Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (3) What payment is made to the teachers? The decision by Thai Airways to com- mence a direct service to Perth was Mr PEARCE replied: made by the airline after consider- (1) Teachers engaged in training duties ation of the load factors available and for student teachers are paid in ac- representations by the Western cordance with the provisions of the Australian Tourism Commission's Teacher Training and Demonstrating campaign to induce scheduled carriers (Education Department) Award to utilise their full rights to Perth as a (1980). The Minister for Education is gateway. the respondent to the Award, but pay- The Western Australian Government ments are made by the training added weight to the Tourism Com- authorities through the Education De- mission's submissions to Singapore partment. Airlines that the level of traffic (2) This general practice has been in exist- existing between Singapore and West- ence for many years. ern Australia was sufficient to warrant an additional weekly service to Perth. (3) Payments to teachers are currently made according to the following scale: This means that Singapore Airlines have elected to utilise their rights to secondary teachers in one subject an additional service to Australia by method-$6.42 per day per adding this additional service to West- student; ern Australia. secondary teachers in two subject Both of these new services are the methods-Sl0.81 per day per product of an increased demand for student; Western Australia as a destination. primary te-achers-$lO.Sl per There is no doubt that the work of the day per student; Tourism Commission to encourage package tour operators to include school coordinators-65c. per day Perth in the products which they offer per student to a maximum of internationally has had a material ef- $6.50 per day; fect on the level of traffic. teachers engaged in authorised demonstration lessons-S 18.07 per demonstration:, TOURISM COMMISSION principals or teachers deputised by them responsible for the Projects:Equity administration of demonstration 209. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister lessons-$4.22 per demon- representing the Minister for Tourism: stration to a maximum of $8.44 (1) Has the Tourism Commission taken per demonstration; an equity in any tourism projects since teachers requested by training in- its inception? stitutions to participate in a dem- (2) Will the Minister detail these invest- ons~ration which will be ments? vidz!otaped or fllmed-$3.75 per midtute of authorised production. (3) If not, why not? [Thursday, 22 August 19851 3212

Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOL (1) Negotiations are currently under way Katanning: Building Programme to enter into an equity participation 212. Mr OLD, to the Minister for Education: agreement with the Captain Freycinet Motel. Regarding the future building pro- gramme for Katanning Senior High (2) No. School, what is the estimated amount (3) The negotiations are privy to the par- to be spent on improvements to the lies concerned. school, assuming that sketch plans are available to the planning department? HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY Mr PEARCE replied: Study No sketch plans have been prepared 210. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for proposed improvements at the representing the Minister for Tourism: school. Accordingly, it is not possible to advise the estimated amount to be (1) Is the Tourism Commission or an spent on such improvements. agency commissioned by the Com- mission currently carrying out a study into the hospitality industry in West- BOOTH LIVESTOCK AND TRADING CO. ern Australia? Land Lease (2) If so, what is the purpose of the study? 213. Mr OLD, to the Minister for Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Agriculture: (1) No. When will a decision be made regard- (2) Not applicable. ing the future use of land currently leased to Booth Livestock and Trading Company? STOCK: WA LIVESTOCK AND Mr EVANS replied: FOOD PTY LTD Funding: Public A decision will be made in September 211. Mr OLD, to the Premier: 1985. What is the extent of public funding which has been made available to PASTORAL INDUSTRY: LEASES Western Australian Livestock Hold- Emanuel Family: Cattle Consignments ings? 214. Mr OLD, to the Minister for Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Agriculture: (i) An advance of $9.75 million which (1) With regard to the management of the was made available under section 4 of Emanuel leases, are cattle from the the Northern Mining Corporation Emanuel leases being trucked to Mid- (Acquisition Act) to Western land saleyards for sale? Australian Government Holdings Ltd (2) Are any cattle from the leases being for on-lending to Western Australian Livestock Holdings Ltd. The advance consigned to northern meatworks? was made on 29 April 1985 at the then (3) If "Yes" to (1), for what reason are market rate of interest, and repaid on cattle from the leases not being 28 June 1985. slaughtered in Kimberley and support- ing the viability of Kimberley abat- (ii) A capital grant of $6 million was toirs? received from the Commonwealth as assistance in the reconstruction of the Mr EVANS replied: Kimberley Pastoral Industry and (1) to (3) The former Emanuel leases are passed on to Western Australian Live- now owned by WA Livestock Hold- stock Holdings Ltd. ings Ltd which company operates on The member will be pleased to note an entirely commercial basis. The that the value of the properties pur- member should direct his inquiry for chased has increased significantly. this information to the company. 322 322[ASSEMBLY]

215. Postponed. Mr WILSON replied: (1) The report was accepted in principle by Cabinet in late 1984 and a number HEALTH of recommendations have been acted Cystic Fibrosis Association of WA: Funding on. 216. Mr GRAYDEN, to the Minister for (2) (a) Action to Date- Health: The document itself was referred (1) Has a submission seeking funding to to the Prime Minister drawing the maintain services provided by the Commonwealth Government's Cystic Fibrosis Association been attention to the need for received by the Government from the improved income security and for association? changes to improve Common- wealth concessions. (2) If so, when can a decision on the sub- mission be expected? Negotiations have been Mr HODGE replied: undertaken to improve a wide range of concessions. (1) and (2) The association has ap- e.g. Home dialysis-now a proached the State Government to as- concession sume and continue the Federal funding provided under the Com- Utility Consumption Sub- munity Employment programme. sidy; improved and Scores of requests have been received transferred to SEC for deliv- from voluntary and private sector ery health organisations to continue the Negotiations are continuing on funding, totalling millions of dollars. other forms of assistance with The State Government is not able to transfer to concessions where ap- provide the funds sought by the as- propriate e.g. school clothing, sociation. SHC ingoing fees. However, Mr Ivor Davies, the Chief Distressed Persons Relief Trust Executive Officer of Princess has closed and its operations are Margaret Hospital has chaired a com- being wound up. mittee to examine the best way of deploying the existing health care ser- Director General for Transport vices to best assist sufferers of cystic has convened a working party on fibrosis and their families. transport matters. In the area of emergency relief, negotiations are being undertaken between the Department for AGED PERSONS: PENSIONERS Community Services and the non- Emergency A id: Working Party government sector. 217. Mr GRAYDEN, to the Minister for the Guidelines redrafting the Welfare Aged: and Assistance Act are being pre- (1) Have recommendations of the work- pared. ing party convened in 1983 to exam- A number of recommendations ine concessions and emergency with no specific cost have been financial aid for pensioners and other implemented in practice e.g. sim- low income workers been acted upon plified application procedure, by the Government? staff training to emergency relief (2) If so- matters. (a) what recommendations have been (b) Work will continue on the im- implemented; plementation of the report subject to resources being available. (b) what further action, if any, is intended in respect of the report? 218. Postponed. [Thursday, 22 August 1985]32 323

PASTORAL ]INDUSTRY: WATER AUTHORITY RESTRUCTURING Bunbury: Office Space 221. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Minister for Emanuel Family Properties Water Resources: 219. Mr BRADSH-AW, to the Minister for (1) What is the current leasing arrange- Agriculture: ment for office space for the Water Authority of Western Australia in Bunbury? (1) How will the purchasing of the Emanuel properties in the Kimberleys (2) Has the Water Authority of Western help restructure the Kimberley region? Australia been asked to move out of its accommodation as the lease has ex- (2) Does the Government intend to pired and the Government will not restructure the non-viable leases in the renew the lease? Kimberleys, and if so, how? (3) How much rent per month was the Water Authority of Western Australia (3) How many cattle did the Government paying while under lease and how expect to be on the Emanuel leases much is the authority paying now? recently purchased? (4) Does the authority intend to move from its present accommodation in (4) How many cattle has the Government Bunbury? so far mustered and sold from the (5) If so, when? Emanuel leases? Mr TONKIN replied: Mr EVANS replied: (1) The Water Authority currently leases the JAG B uildi ng at 2 3 Spencer Street, Bunbury. The rent is $6 318.00 per (1) The purchase of Emanuel station properties by WA Livestock Holdings month. Ltd will ensure that this crucial cattle (2) The current lease expires on 30 herd is not stripped to the detriment September and future tenancy is sub- of the Kimberley cattle industry. Un- ject to negotiations with the owners of happily such stripping has taken place the building. in the case of many other leases. (3) Answered by (1). (4) Yes. (2) The Government is endeavouring to (5) Subject to the negotiations referred to ensure that there are no unviable leases in the Kimberleys. It is taking in (2). full account of the recommendations in the recently completed Kimberley 222 and 223. Postponed. Pastoral Industry Inquiry report and will continue to assist in the amalga- mation and rationalisation of pastoral ALUMINIUM SMELTER SITE leases in the region. Resumptions.- Withdrawals 224. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Minister for (3) and (4) The purchase of the Emanuel Minerals and Energy: companies was effected by WA Live- (1) Has the notice of intention to resume Holdings Ltd which is a com- mercialStock operation operating with the farm land at Kemerton for the same righs to privacy as any other proposed aluminiumn smelter been company incorporated under the lifted? Companies Code. Accordingly, the in- (2) If not, why not? formation sought is not a matter of (3) How many properties did the Govern- public record. ment purchase for the proposed alu- minium smelter? (4) What does the Government intend to 220, Postponed. do with the land purchased? 324 324ASSEMBLY]

(5) Does the Government still intend to HEALTI-: DENTAL have an aluminium smelter built at Orlwdontist: Carnarvon Kemnerton when the Financial climate is right? 226. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for Health: Mr PARKER replied: (1) Will he provide assistance with air travel between Perth and Carnarvon (1) No. for an orthodontist to make regular visits to the town to provide a local service (2) Negotiations are still proceeding on for orthodontal treatment? purchase. (2) Is he prepared to treat a visiting orthodontist in the same way as other (3) As properties are currently being pur- visiting specialists who are pro- chased a figure cannot be given, but all grammed to provide a regular service purchases are being made within the at the Carnarvon Regional Hospital? boundary of the conceptual land man- Mr HODGE replied: agement plan. (1) 1 am prepared to consider any pro- (4) The Government will be publishing a posal which will give a guarantee of final management plan towards the continuing service to the people of the end of th is year which will be based on area, since orthodontic treatment is not covered by 1PTAAS travel ar- the conceptual land management plan rangements. that was available for public comment earlier this year. (2) Answered by (1). (5) The Government still believes that the development of an aluminium smelter QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE in Western Australia would have sig- nificant economic benefits and should TRANSPORT: BUSES continue to be pursued. The Prams Kemerton site would be available in 43. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for the event that a viable project was de- Women's Interests: veloped. Does he condone the directive of the leaders of the bus drivers union that GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES bus drivers should no longer lift prams onto the backs of buses for women Transfers: Bunlury with young children? Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: 225. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Premier: I would hope that the situation which I have always known to be the case (1) Has an agreement been reached with continues, and that is that drivers the Civil Service Association and/or when ever possible assist mothers with any other union with regard to paying young children to make sure that incentives to Government employees prams are safely stowed on buses and to transfer to Bunbury? that drivers are as helpful as possible. In the past I have niot round that (2) If so, what are the terms of the agree- drivers were anything but helpful in ment? situations where they were called upon to provide assistance 10 young famil- (3) If not, when does the Government ex- ies. I understand that the present situ- pect to reach an agreement? ation reflects the attitudes and policies of the previous Government and that Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: there have been widely recognised cir- cumstances in which it is unwise for a (1) to (3) See reply to question 104 of 21 bus driver to leave control of his bus. August 1985. They are a minority of situations, it is [Thursday, 22 August 1985]35 325

true, but I can understand the trepi- guarantee that this would not be dation on the part of some bus drivers legally challenged by the City of in some situations to leave their buses Stirling? either because they fear for their own Mr PEARCE replied: safety or for the control of the bus that is their responsibility. Those members who were in the House last night will recall the se- Mr MacKinnon: You should have seen the quence of events I narrated to the television coverage of the union sec- House with regard to the discussion I retary when he explained this. He had with the, member for Mt Lawley thought it was a great big joke. concerning the gazettal of this scheme. Mr BRIAN BURKE: All I can say is that Members will also recall that the from my experience as a father of a member raised the claim that he was family that has invariably been young misrepresented, and although he used at some time, and continues to be a form of words which enabled him to young at other times-a father of a avoid a direct denial that the conver- persistently young family with a wife sation I related to the House actually who has used and still uses buses from took place, nevertheless he was clearly time to time-I do not believe that the seen to give that impression. picture being drawn of bus drivers by Since then I have gone through in my the Opposition, is true. The Oppo- mind all the corroborative evidence I sition has spoken very disparagingly could bring to bear to substantiate my of bus drivers with bad backs and statement. Of course, the conversation others who will not work. I am simply took place in the corridor outside the saying that I do not believe that bus member's office in this building, and drivers are inherently any worse than so is not subject to direct evidence in members of Parliament or priests or that there was no third party present. schoolteachers. It seems to me to be But there were a number of people an unreasonable proposition to begin who certainly became aware of the making personally disparaging discussion immediately after, and I remarks about bus drivers merely to will list those people for the benefit of support a political view. To put my the House. view succinctly, I hope that bus drivers continue to follow the practice I reported on the substance of the con- wherever it is safe to do so of assisting versation within minutes when I families, especially those consisting of spoke with the member for Perth (the mothers with young children, whether Parliamentary Secretary of the Cabi- that be by putting prams on buses, net), and subsequently I repeated the providing normal courtesies in respect conversation to the Premier. I then of information or direction, and gen- reported informally on the substance erally trying to ensure that people of the discussion to the Cabinet at a have a safe and comfortable journey luncheon after a Cabinet meeting, so which will render them likely to want each Cabinet member will be able to to repeat it. That is my opinion. Any support my recollection of the events opinion expressed contrary to that is that took place at the time. something with which I will disagree. But that is not all. Because the legal opinion on which we were working PLANNING: STIRLING CITY COUNCIL was of such importance, I had two officers from the Crown Law Depart- DistrictPlanning Scheme No. 2: Gaze tat ment, and also the Acting Town Plan- 44. Mrs BEGGS, to the Minister for ning Commissioner (Mr Lloyd Graham), come to see me both before Planning: and after my discussions with the Has he any evidence for his statement member for Mt Lawley. My first set of in the House last night that the mem- discussions with those three people ber for Mt Lawley had urged him to concerned my power to gazette the gazette the City of Stirling district town planning scheme without further planning scheme No. 2 with the reference to the City of Stirling, and it 326 326[ASSEMBLY]

took place on the assumption that this I am not prepared to have it said or was the attitude the City of Stirling implied by any member that I misled was seeking for me to follow. I took the House or lied to it. I have told the that advice very quickly before I dis- House the absolute truth in this mat- cussed the matter with the member. ter, and the member for Mt Lawley sought to use a form of words to imply I told the House last night that the untruth in what I have said without City of Stirling's advice was that I had denying outright in fact what I said. no legal power to do so. I told the member because I did not want the I make the offer again to the member City of Stirling to believe that I was for Mt Lawley to deny outfight now going to take a course of action I could what I have said in this matter. not take. I think his silence is the answer the House requires. After my discussion with the member last night I went back to the two Crown Law officers and the Acting TRANSPORT: BUSES Town Planning Commissioner and re- lated to them again the substance of Prams the conversation I had had with the 45. Mr BRIAN BURKE (Minister for member; and I sought from them a Women's Interests): further legal opinion. They provided I would like to add to the answer pre- that opinion, which was substantially viously given some new information the same as the one first given to me. which I am sure will be of interest to So that I could be sure on the issue, I the Opposition. It refers to the then commissioned a separate and in- substance of the question that the dependent QC's advice from Mr Leader of the Opposition asked me David Malcolm QC on the legal point about the policy concerning bus that was the substance of the issue of drivers and prams. It is a public- the discussion between the member for Mt Lawley and myself. Each of Mr Hassell: I didn't ask you about a policy. those people would be able to I asked you about your attitude. substantiate the tale I gave the House Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am simply adding a last night. dimension to my answer in which I think members of the Opposition will Then there is a document which also find some satisfaction. would tend It is a to corroborate what I said, statement by the Chairman of the and I refer now to the advice which was tendered by Mr Malcolm QC on Mrr (Mr Stuart Hicks) and the sec- the specific point of my power to ga- retary of the relevant union (Mr Tom zette the town planning scheme with- Evers). It reads as follows- out reference to the member. Policy changes under consider- ation have concerned only the If the member for Mt Lawley now issue of whether drivers could be wants to say here or in some other way compelled to leave the drivers that he denies the substance of the dis- seat to assist. cussion, let him do so now. Further discussions between the We hear no denial. If he thinks better Trust and the union have of it afterwards, let him move to have resolved the outstanding issues. a Select Committee of this House Patrons may be assured that the appointed to investigate the statement policy in relation to the carniage I made. I would be only too happy to of prams will remain unaltered. bring before it not only the evidence I have myself in regard to this matter This means ihat mothers with but also those people to whom I have prams may be assured of the as- referred and who would be able to sistance of the driver during off- support the evidence I have given to peak periods. the House. Mr MacKinnon: A significant turn-about! [Thursday, 22 August 1985]32 327

Mr BRIAN BURKE: I think the union and EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING: the MTT are simply echoing the EMPLOYMENT statement I made about my attitude. I Nor:thern Suburbs think it is fair and reasonaable. 47. Mrs WATKINS, to the Premier: Mr Thompson: That was not their position Can the Premier give any indication before today. of the employment trends in the Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is pretty hard to northern suburbs of Perth over the understand the Opposition because past 12 Months? five minutes ago the Leader of the Op- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: position was accusing the Govern- I am very pleased to be able to report ment of being run by the union. Now that the northern suburbs, which in- that the union reflects our attitude, I clude my own electorate, have shown suppose the Opposition will say that a healthy reflection of the increased the Government is running the union. employment opportunities that are The statement continues- presently available in Western Australia. The long-standing restriction on I begin my answer by saying specifi- this assistance during peak cally that in respect of those statistics periods will continue. that are quoted from time to time as All buses are fitted with pram being representative of the number of hooks. Future buses will be simni- young people unemployed, the stat- larly fitted. istics invariably refer only to that pro- portion of young people who are All patrons of the Metropolitan seeking work-that is, who are avail- Transport Trust are assured by able to participate in the job mar- Management and by the union ket-and reflect the proportional per- and its members of our continued centage of that segment of the 15 to endeavours to build on our proud 1 8-year-old group or the 15 to 24-year- reputation for service and civility. old group who are actually unem- ployed. When one takes the total num- ber of 15 to I 8-year-olds or 15 to 24- HEALTH: AIDS year-olds and calculates the number of unemployed as a percentage of that Deaths total in regard to all people in that age 46. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for group, the number of unemployed Health: falls somewhere in the region of nine to 10 per cent; so when we hear (1) How many deaths have been recorded statements about there being 25 per in Western Australia which are di- cent or 20 per cent unemployed, that rectly attributed to the disease AIDS? 20 per cent or 25 per cent refers to the (2) How many patients are currently be- percentage of the category or the pro- ing treated in Western Australian hos- portion of the total who are seeking pitals for AIDS? work. The growth of employment in the Mr HODGE replied: northern suburbs was 11.6 per cent (1) and (2) I am surprised the Deputy which was 7.6 per cent better than the Leader of the Opposition asked me whole of Western Australia. In the that question without notice, as I1do north metropolitan subdivision not think he could seriously expect mue 13 000 more people are in work now to have those figures in my head. As than in June last year. far as I can recollect, there have been Overall, unemployment in WA four or five deaths in Western decreased by 4 200 people during July. Australia from AIDS. If the member There are now 25 200 more jobs in would like to put the remainder of his Western Australia than in July last question on notice I will obtain the year. This is almost double the information for him. national increase in percentage terms. 328 328[ASSEMBLY]

I am extremely pleased with the con- (1) Did an officer Of the Western tinuing downward trend in unem- Australian Police Force travel ployed particularly amongst the overseas to undertake an investi- young, but the Government is not gation into Genting Berhad prior complacent in facing up to youth to that Organisation being given employment. approval to operate the casino? The WA Government hopes to pro- (2) If yes, did the officer provide a vide 2 500 traineeships for school report favourable to that organis- leavers in this financial year. We hope ation? the first 500 will be able to start in (3) Was the officer accompanied by October. Our scheme will dovetail the Minister for Racing and with youth unemployment measures Gaming? announced by the Prime Minister. The scheme involves using job place- (4) Will the Minister table the report? ment and training programmes as an (5) If not, why not? alternative to the dole. Mr CARR replied: To that I add this one plea: There are some things which can be set apart I thank the member for some notice of from politics although they are very intention to ask the question. He will few and small in number. On that probably find when he hears the basis I believe the question of youth answer that this matter is principally unemployment is something which within the responsibility of the Minis- needs to be addressed positively by ter for Racing and Gaming. The the Opposition and not detracted answers are as follows- from in the usual political sense, as (1) to (5) An officer of the WA Police was the case when Mr Shack, the Fed- Force was involved in undertak- eral member for Tangney, made his ing inquiries to assist in assessing comments about the Federal Govern- the applications for a casino li- ment's proposals. We can all score cence in Western Australia. That points and harangue in the political officer was Detective Sergeant sense. But in this one area, and there Les Ayton, who was attached to may be two or three others, it is appro- the Casino Control Committee priate to be positive in our approach following an approach from the to solving a problem which can affect chairman of the committee, Mr Opposition members' families as well Harry Jarman. as those of the people whom we hope Following preliminary inquiries, will benefit by the policies we are pur- an interim report was submitted suing. advising that some matters required further investigation. As GAMBLING: CASINO a result, further inquiries were undertaken in other States and Genting Berliad: Investigation overseas. I understand the Minis- 48. Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister for ter for Racing and Gaming ac- Police and Emergency Services: companied Detective Sergeant On the opening day of the session I Ayton on at least some of his in- addressed a question without notice to quiries. the Minister concerning a police re- At the conclusion of these inquir- port into the Genting Berhad group ies the then Commissioner of which has been given the right to run Police advised me that infor- the casino. He did not answer the mation gained by Detective question on that occasion, saying it Sergeant Ayton had been relayed was the responsibility of the Minister to the Casino Control Committee. for Racing and Gaming. I now ask a The commissioner's advice to me question on the same subject and I was that no reasons were ad- hope by now the Minister has come to vanced to preclude Genting appreciate that he has responsibility Berhad from being considered for for the Police Force. I ask- a casino licence. [Thursday, 22 August 1985]32 329

With regard to tabling docu- real increase was only 2.5 per cent de- ments, I remind the House that spite the bluster and the wind that one details of police inquiries are hears from the current Opposition always considered to be confiden- spokesman on defence. tial and I do not intend to breach Mr Court: We have always offered support that convention in relation to this to you. Give credit where credit is matter. due. We have gone out of our way to 1 also advise the House of one ad- assist any submarine project. We have ditional point. In order to ensure given support for defence spending in continued police monitoring of this State. operations associated with the ca- Mr BRYCE: I declare that the member of sino, Detective Sergeant Ayton Nedlands has forgotten. It seems his has been seconded to the office of short-term memory is suffering from the Minister for Racing and an overload because he has forgotten Gaming with a brevet rank of in- the number of times that he has stood spector. in this place and soundly and roundly condemned the Federal Labor DEFENCE: WESTERN AUSTRALIA Government for cutting expenditure. Federal Budget Implications Mr Court: It is not spending enough on defence. We have offered full support 49. Mr BRIDGE, to the Minister (or Defence for more spending. Liaison: Mr BRYCE: And that is precisely what has Will the recent Federal Budget do any- happened. thing to improve the defence of West- ern Australia? Mr Court: We are opposed to your activi- ties relating to the visiting ships of our Mr BRYCE replied: allies. I am delighted to say that it most cer- Mr BRYCE: Well, well, well! The member tainly will. I am surprised that the forgets. His memory is very, very members opposite have not come to short. It causes him to forget that I this Chamber already with an amend- said there is a very big difference be- ment to the Address-in-Reply urging tween the rhetoric of members op- the Governor of Western Australia to posite and their colleagues in take note of the good things for West- Canberra and the performance of the ern Australia in defence terms. We national L-abor Government in allo- have heard so much from many ident- cating money to defence. Cannot the ifiable members opposite over the member get it through his thick head years about defence allocations from that the Labor Government has Labor Governments. They must have allocated vastly more money, in com- egg all over their faces. Some members parative terms, to defence in the three opposite will find the facts unpalat- Budgets it has brought down than was able. allocated in the seven Budgets brought The defence budget gives a major down by Fraser. The member is never boost to Australia's defences. The de- short of that sort of rhetoric. fence budget will increase, by 10 per Perhaps I could draw to the attention cent, to more than $6.5 billion, a real of some members of the Chamber who increase of 3.1 per cent. Once again, the rhetoric are interested in this important sub- the differences between ject exactly how Western Australia from our conservative opponents and will benefit in specific terms from the the reality of the performance of defence allocations in the last Federal Labor Governments on defence mat- Budget. The $10.5 million allocation ters is clearly evident. for the proposed submarine escape Defence expenditure under the three training facility at HMAS Stirling Budgets of the Hawke Labor Govern- means it will go ahead. It will enable ment has increased by an average of submarine escape training to be con- 3.3 per cent in real terms. In the seven ducted in Australia rather than in years of the Fraser coalition rule, the Britain, as is presently the case. The 330 330[ASSEMBLY]

facility will require a permanent staff TECHNOLOGY PARK of 20 and can cater for up to 20 Bunbury trainees at any one time. It will also give a useful boost to the local con- 50. Mr COURT, to the Minister for Regional struction industry. Development and the North West with special responsibility for "Bunbury 2000": (1) Does the Government support the de- The expansion of KMAS Stirling velopment of an 87 hectare technology received further confirmation with the park by a private company, the announcement that almost $4 million Herbert Corporation Ltd, to be situ- will be spent on housing for the RAN ated south-east of the Port of in Rockiingham, which will bring the Bunbury. total number of new houses for Navy (2) If "Yes", why is the Government personnel built in the Rockingham giving consideration to developing its area in the last three years to over one own technology park close to that hundred. A number of these houses proposed development. will be for the crew and families of Mr GRILL replied: HMAS Swan, the destroyer escort which will be based at Stirling at the (1) and (2) The South West Development end of this year. Authority has, in fact, supported the development of an industrial park by the Herbert Corporation Ltd at the This was the Swan that was promised site the member has mentioned. to Western Australia by previous Lib- Whether it be called an industrial park eral Governments year after year and or a technology park, the Government election after election, and it never certainly supports it. happened. We have a Labor Govern- The ment in office in Canberra for three Government has also supported years and Australians discover the the concept of a free trade zone in that western side of Australia for the first area; and because of its very nature it time in reference to the dispersal of will need to be close to a port. In that facilities. respect it is hoped that certain techno- logical industries can redeploy them- selves from, perhaps, the metropolitan Another major item of good news was area, other parts of Australia, and the the allocation of $22 million to con- world, to Bunbury. tinue construction of the RAAF base The Government certainly wishes Mr at Derby. After monumental inaction Herbert well in his efforts, and it will by the Fraser Government on this fa- certainly redeploy a certain number of cility, the current Labor Government industries to the Bunbury region. has acted and the major part of the airfield should now be constructed by the middle of next year. HEALTH: PSYCHIATRIC SERVICES Country In conclusion, I would just add that it 51. Mr D. L. SMITH, to the Minister for is very encouraging for this Govern- Health: ment to see a Federal Government be- Further to the Minister's recent an- ginning to give Western Australia its nouncement that psychiatric services proper due in defence after having would be expanded to the country been ignored for so long by conserva- with the establishment of a Bunbury tive Governments, State and Federal. clinical team, is the Minister in a position to announce details of the Perhaps members opposite will be service and when it will commence? prepared to consider it was a step in Mr HODGE replied: the right direction when the Western I am very pleased to advise the mem- Australian Government appointed for ber that the Bunbury clinical team will the first time a Minister for Defence comprise a consultant psychiatrist, Liaison. clinical psychologist, social worker, (Thursday, 22 August 19851 3313

occupational therapist, and four men- have also seen Press reports that the ial health nurses. These positions were member for Kalamunda has promised advertised in May, and recomn- to introduce such legislation to this mendations have been made for ap- House in the near future. pointment to all positions except one. Predictably, it has been difficult to at- I commented on that last night and I tract a consultant psychiatrist, and will wait with some interest to read that position is currently being the proposed legislation when he in- readvenised. troduces it. I have indicated to the me- dia that the Government of WA is Meanwhile, the psychiatrist superin- guided in these matters by the tendent from the Bentley Clinic, who national AIDS task force and its chair- has been offering a visiting consultant man, Professor Penington, who is service to Bunbury on a fortnightly recognised as the country's leading basis for some eight years, will act as authority on these matters. the temporary head of this new service until a permanent resident Mr Thompson: Not by Neville Wran. psychiatrist can be recruited. The Bunbury team will be operating Mr HODGE: That is Mr Wran's judgment- from the Bunbury Regional Hospital, All State health authorities should act and it is envisaged that the recruited in unison on the advice of Professor team members will take up their du- Penington and his committee of tics as soon as the necessary modifi- experts. He has, after all, assembled cations have been made to the hospi- the best brains in the nation on this tal to accommodate the new service. particular issue to give advice to the This should be achieved over the next various Governments. few months. This venture represents a major step This Government has accepted the ad- in providing psychiatric care for the vice from Professor Penington on all community outside the metropolitan occasions; whenever he suggested we area. take action we took it. In fact, we were the most prompt in Australia to take action. In September 1983 we made AIDS a notifiable disease. We were HEALTH: AIDS the first State in Australia to do so. We have acted on the question of Transmission: Offence statutory declarations for blood do- nors. Again, we were the first State in 52. Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister for Australia to do so. We have also acted Health: on Professor Penington's advice con- (1) Has the Minister seen in Press reports cerning the easing of restrictions on that the Premier of NSW proposes to the sale and availablity of condoms. introduce legislation to make it an of- We were not the first State to do that, fence for a person knowingly to but we were among the first. On all transmit AIDS? these matters I took Professor Penington's advice very seriously. (2) Does he support the move by the NSW Premier? If Professor Peningion advises this (3) Would he be prepared to see that type Government to introduce legislation of legislation introduced to WA? along the lines suggested by Mr Wran, obviously we would give very serious Mr [HODGE replied: consideration to that. I will also give careful consideration to any Bill (1) to (3) Yes, I have seen the Press re- introduced by the member for ports indicating that Mr Wran is Kalamunda when and if he introduces introducing that form of legis lation. I it. 332 332[ASSEMBLY]

DIVISIONS Mr GRILL replied: Pairs Arrangement I thank the member for providing me 53. Mr BURKETT, to the Leader of the with a copy of the newspaper article, I House: indicate to the member for Nedlands (I) Is the Leader of the House aware that that there is no second technology as a result of the Opposition's park in Bunbury. It has not been breaking pairs this afternoon, Oppo- promoted and the member is Simply sition members who were paired actu- misinformed. ally passed a vote? (2) Has he had discussions with the HEALTH: PARAPLEGIC-QUADRIPLEGIC Leader of the Opposition about this matter? ASSOCIATION OF WA INC. (3) Does he have any knowledge of the Nursing Home Charges reason for the Opposition's breaking 55. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for pairs? Health: Mr TONKIN replied: (1) to (3) 1 have not bad discussions Can the Minister advise whether there with the Leader of the Opposition. is any basis in fact for the member for I Floreat's assertions in a local sub- understand that three members did in urban paper recently that patients at fact vote with the Opposition on one the Para-Quad Centre in Shenton of the motions that were passed by the Park are suffering from a rise in State House earlier today. I was concerned Government nursing home charges about this and discovered that three which has reduced their spending members who had been paired actu- money? ally voted. I have been told that this was inadvertent and that they did not Mr HODGE replied: mean to vote. It was a misunderstand- ing on the part of the Opposition I believe the basis for the member for Whip. Floreat's assertions can best be de- scribed as "political mischief', par- I am happy to accept that expla- ticularly in the light of his recent tend- nation, but I thought it was important ency to colour his statements to suit to indicate that although I am not say- his particular propagandist ing that the Opposition in any way did needs-even going so far as to change it deliberately, the public should be the wording of a motion of the Curtin aware that the margin of our vote was divison of his own political party in down, not due to any dereliction of respect of allegations about education duty on the part of'Government mem- on homosexuality. bers but rather due to the fact that pairs were broken by the Opposition In this case he attempts to suggest that on this occasion. the State Government has arbitrarily decided to dramatically increase fees TECHNOLOGY PARK at the Para-Quad Centre in Shenton Runbury Park. He knows full well that nursing home fees, including those at the Para- 54. Mr COURT, to the Minister for Regional Quad Centre, are determined in ac- Development and the North West with cordance with a formula in which the special responsibility for "Bunbury 2000": Commonwealth sets the patient con- Will the technology park development tribution. The State has to amend its by the Government at Bunbury affect fees each time the Commonwealth in- the viability of the original private creases the pensions, supplementary sector Bunbury technology park which assistance, or nursing home benefits. was supported both by the Minister The formula seeks to maintain the and the Federal Minister for Science principle that a given percentage of and Technology as outlined in detail the pension be the patient contri- in the November edition of Business bution to nursing home accommo- World last year? dation charges. [Thursday, 22 August 19851 3333

The member for Floreat also knows Mr PARKER replied: full well that the same formula applied (1) to (3) I do not know why I have been when the Government of which he asked this question; I am not the Min- was a member was in office. in fact, ister concerned. the formula which applies statewide to all nursing homes, and not just the Mr Blaikie: Minerals are tied up in the Para-Quad Centre, has remained un- Port of Bunbury. changed since the Liberals were in Mr PARKER: The practice for many years office. has been that if one is asking a ques- tion of a different Minister one gives I reiterate, the formula is one in which him notice first. I am afraid I am not the Commonwealth sets the patient in a position to answer the question at contribution. I also point out that the all. State Government contributed year to $303 000 in the past financial HEALTH: DRUGS the operating costs of the Paraplegic- Quadriplegic Association of WA Inc Detoxification. which runs the Shenton Park centre. 57. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Health: In cases of hardship, a social worker's Will the ADA hospital in Field Street, recommendation to further reduce the Mt Lawley, be used for the nursing home daily fee can be con- detoxification of drug users? sidered for approval. Mr HODGE replied: Perhaps this recent flurry of activity I distinctly recall giving a reassurance on the part of the member for Floreat to the member for Mt Lawley on this is indicative of a need to keep a matter before, both personally and in weather eye out for his preselection, reply to other questions. given his low profile since the last It depends whether one is using ejection. "detoxification" in its broadest con- text or whether one is referring to al- coholics or drug users. I have given previous assurances, and I Will repeat INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE them, that the Field Street hospital will be used for the treatment and Bunbury Port detoxification of alcoholics. 56. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Minister for Minerals and Energy: COMMERCIAL TENANCY (RETAIL (1) What is the reason for the demar- SHOPS) AGREEMENTS ACT Bunbury? cation dispute at the Port of Scope (2) What action has the Government 58. Mr P. .1. SMITH, to the Minister for taken to resolve this dispute? Small Business: (3) How many ships at Bunbury are cur- Are community groups and charitable rently held up because of the dispute? organisations included within the pro- (4) Has the biased attitude of the Minister visions of the shopping centre tenancy for Industrial Relations prolonged this legislation passed in the last session of strike? Parliament? The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Could the Mr BRYCE replied: member indicate precisely to which This is a very pertinent question as the Minister that question is addressed? legislation, the Commercial Tenancy (Retail Shops) Agreements Act 1985, Mr BRADSHAW: To the Minister for comes into effect on I September, and Minerals and Energy. I am very pleased to inform the mem- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I call on the ber and the House that community Minister for Minerals and Energy and groups and charitable organisations indicate that the last part of the ques- have nothing to worry about with this tion is entirely out of order and it legislation. They are not affected in should not be answered. the slightest. 334 334[ASS EMBLY]

It was drawn to my attention last week LAND: NATIONAL PARK that some members of the Building Kalbarri:Roads Owners and Managers Association had received legal advice casting 59. Mrs HENDERSON, to the Minister for doubts on whether they should allow Conservation and Land Management: such groups to continue to conduct ac- Could the Minister advise the progress tivities such as cake stalls and raffle that has been made and the expected ticket stands in shopping centre malls completion date of the three-year road and similar areas. I immediately re- improvement programme in the ferred the matter to the Crown Law Kalbarri National Park? officers as, I hasten to add, it had Mr DAVIES replied: never been the intention of the legis- lation to affect in any way the oper- The road improvement programme in ations of such agreements between the Kalbani National Park is expected to be completed before the September these bodies and shopping centre have managements. school holidays. Existing roads been upgraded and new ones installed to enhance the park's attractions. The Crown Law advice clearly The final stages of the programme in- vindicated the Government's original clude the installation of scenic look- position. In its view, bodies such as outs on a new road leading to the the Lions Club, the local church com- Murchison Gorge and also a new road mittee, or junior football or netball to Meanorra Hill to provide views clubs, which occupy space to run stalls over the national park, the Murchison in shopping centres, are exempt. estuary, and the Kalbarri town site. The Main Roads Department has However, to ensure there is no chance provided tourist road funds for the of further confusion, I have asked that programme and the new roads will an amendment to the Act be drafted give tourist coaches and conventional promptly to categorically exclude vehicles all-weather access to the park. common areas in shopping centres, My department is very much aware of such as malls, from the provisions of the importance of national parks to the Act. It is my aim to achieve this by the tourism industry, and we have the Act's proclamation date, 1 provided additional management re- September. This means that the com- sources. These will provide improved munity groups and voluntary organis- opportunities for tourism and rec- ations which do so much good work in reation in the Kalbarri National Pirk our community-often without a which will enhance the economic great deal of recognition, I might growth of the region. add--can go on using the common As members will be aware, national areas by arrangement with shopping parks are the mainstay of the tourism centre managers, exactly as they are industry, the largest growth industry doing at present. in Western Australia; and if tourism is to continue to expand, national parks will have to continue to receive it must be pointed out that the vast increased resources for management. majority of leasing arrangements in shopping centres between managers and small shopkeepers are satisfac- TOURISM COMMISSION tory. The need for the tenancy legis- Equity Mlotel lation arose from the small but persist- ent level of complaints relating to un- 60. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Premier: satisfactory practices in this area. It is (1) With the present announcement that this area in which the Act has been the WA Tourism Commission has designed to play a constructive role by equity in the capital of the Freycinet ensuring a more fair and equitable ap- Motel at Margaret River, is it the pol- proach is adopted to the benefit of all icy of the Government to take parties. financial equity in private develop- [Thursday, 22 August 19851 3353

ment projects when Government as- Mr BRIAN BURKE: That means holy. sistance is now being sought and granted? Mr Blaikie: Holier than thou. (2) Can he advise of any other projects Mr BRIAN BURKE: I would think that in where the Government has equity? respect of either definition it is com- pletely appropriate to use the word. I (3) Does this principle also apply to the WA Development Corporation, Exim, conclude by saying that, in any case, and WA Livestock and Food Pty Ltd? slipshod and ill-directed as it was, the arrow slung by the member for Vasse Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: is not much different from the arrows slung by his party when last in (1) to (3) 1 think it would be best to ex- Government when it promised to pro- plain the present situation by pel the R and I Bank into an equity summarising. and by saying that the position in different enterprises. We Government has a policy of trying to have not instructed the R and I, the be helpful. In this specific case we are WADC, the Tourism Commission, or talking about a guarantee-I am going the Small Business Development Cor- from memory-which was extended poration to take equity positions. by the previous Government and then What we have instructed them as to convented by the present Government our policy is that they should try to be to an equity participation in a trust on helpful and that they should, as far as the basis that, within five years, the possible within the limits of public Tourism Commission would sell out interest, promote the expansion of the of its holdings in the trust. That seems economy. We have done that and we to me to be a strange sort of example stand guilty of doing that; that is, of from which the member for Vasse being seen to assist people in that should draw his general indict- manner. I could not think of a more ment-implied as it was-of the unfortun ate example for the member Government across the range of its ac- to seize upon than one which imposes tivities. an equal indictment upon his own Mr Blaikie: What's your policy? Government. True, it was not a Mr BRIAN BURKE: I have told the mem- Bunbury Foods Pty Ltd guarantee; ber what our policy is, and now I am true, it was not a West Trade Centre adding for his illumination some other guarantee; true, it was not one of the diamantes. I am trying to add the sort other guarantees made by the previous of sheet with which the member could Government when it drew out the climb from his cup of ignorance. DID as the sort of department one went to for alms systems attributed to Mr Blaikie: You seem rather pious. pious people.