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Transcript of Committee Proceedings PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 5 - LEGAL AFFAIRS Wednesday 4 March 2020 Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio area COUNTER TERRORISM AND CORRECTIONS CORRECTED The Committee met at 09:30. MEMBERS The Hon. Robert Borsak (Chair) The Hon. Sam Farrawary The Hon. Rose Jackson The Hon. Natasha Maclaren-Jones The Hon. Shaoquett Moselmane The Hon. Penny Sharpe Mr David Shoebridge The Hon. Natalie Ward PRESENT The Hon. Anthony Roberts, Minister for Counter Terrorism and Corrections CORRECTIONS TO TRANSCRIPT OF COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS Corrections should be marked on a photocopy of the proof and forwarded to: Budget Estimates secretariat Room 812 Parliament House Macquarie Street SYDNEY NSW 2000 Wednesday, 4 March 2020 Legislative Council Page 1 The CHAIR: Welcome to the public hearing of Portfolio Committee No. 5—Legal Affairs inquiry into budget estimates 2019-2020, further hearings. Before I commence I acknowledge the Gadigal people, who are the traditional custodians of this land. I also pay respect to the Elders, past and present, of the Eora nation and extend that respect to other Aboriginals present. I welcome Minister Roberts and accompanying officials to this hearing today. Today the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure for portfolio area Counter Terrorism and Corrections. Today's hearing is open to the public and is being broadcast live via the Parliament's website. In accordance with the broadcasting guidelines, while members of the media may film and record Committee members and witnesses, people in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of any filming or photography. I also remind media representatives that you must take responsibility for what you publish about the Committee's proceedings. The guidelines for the broadcast of proceedings are available from the secretariat. All witnesses in budget estimates have a right to procedural fairness according to the procedural fairness resolution adopted by the House in 2018. There may be some questions that a witness could only answer if they had more time or with certain documents to hand. In these circumstances witnesses are advised that they can take a question on notice and provide an answer within 21 days. Any messages from advisers or members' staff present in the public gallery should be delivered through the Committee secretariat. Minister, I remind you and the officers accompanying you that you are free to pass notes and refer directly to your advisers seated at the table behind you. Transcripts of this hearing will be available on the web as soon as possible. Finally, could everyone please turn their mobile phones to silent for the duration of the hearing. All witnesses from departments, statutory bodies or corporations will be sworn prior to giving evidence. Minister Roberts, I remind you that you do not need to be sworn as you have already sworn an oath to your office as a member of Parliament. As all witnesses in this hearing have previously been sworn at an earlier budget estimates hearing before this Committee, no witnesses will be sworn in today. Today's hearing will be conducted from 9.30 a.m. to 11.30 a.m. with the Minister and from 2.00 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. for departmental witnesses, although we may very well end up moving from 1.40 p.m. to 4.40 p.m. There will be no questions asked by Government members. I declare the proposed expenditure for portfolio area Counter Terrorism and Corrections open for examination. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 5 - LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRECTED Wednesday, 4 March 2020 Legislative Council Page 2 PETER SEVERIN, Commissioner, Corrective Services NSW, Department of Communities and Justice, on former oath MICHAEL COUTTS-TROTTER, Secretary, Department of Communities and Justice, on former oath SIMONE WALKER, Deputy Secretary, Strategy Police and Commissioning, Department of Communities and Justice, on former oath The CHAIR: As there is no provision for any witness to make an opening statement before the Committee commences questioning, we will begin with questions from the Opposition. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: Thank you, Chair. Minister, how many Corrective Services NSW jobs will leave from the communities of the Brewarrina and Ivanhoe as a result of the closure of both correctional centres? Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: You could have said good morning. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: I did say good morning earlier. You were closing the door. Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: A very good morning. Can I bring this into a level of context, and that is in late 2019 the New South Wales Government announced major changes to our State's prison bed capacity. That was part of the Government's responsibility to utilise new infrastructure and ensure that the correctional facilities it is using are the safest and most secure available, and that they are best in a position to support what is our dedicated staff who work in these facilities and whose core function is rehabilitation. The prison bed capacity— The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: Minister, my question was not about the prison bed capacity. It was about how many jobs will be lost. Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: I am just trying to put a bit of context around this. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: But it is a direct question, Minister. It is about how many jobs will leave the areas of Brewarrina and Ivanhoe. Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: I think the Minister had started. He is given some leniency to come to an answer but if he could come to the answer quickly, please. Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: Could I point out then, by way of again putting this into context, the additional jobs that are being created in our prisons across regional New South Wales? Does that assist? Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: I think the question is quite specific, Minister. It is about those two localities. Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: All right. Are you talking about job losses or job relocations? The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: No, job losses from those communities in Brewarrina and Ivanhoe as a result of the closure of the two correctional centres. Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: We are not closing them. We are retiring them. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: You are retiring them? Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: That is right. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: How many jobs will be lost as a result of retirement? Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: Due to the retirement there will be, again, a repurposing of the facilities but on top of that—and I will ask the commissioner to expand upon it further—currently what I can say is at Brewarrina there are 20 staff who will be impacted. Twenty-six approved roles at location at the moment. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: From which area? Is it from Brewarrina or both? Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: Brewarrina. In Ivanhoe there are currently 19. The staffing impact will be 19 and approved roles at the location are 21. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: Can you explain that to me? Does that mean that those 20 and 19 jobs will no longer be there as a result of retirement of the two centres? Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: Can I say with respect to Brewarrina, eight voluntary redundancies [VRs] have been offered and accepted. Nine placements to other facilities across New South Wales have been accepted. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 5 - LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRECTED Wednesday, 4 March 2020 Legislative Council Page 3 We have three still being managed, which comes to the total of 20. In Ivanhoe, seven have had VRs offered to them and they have accepted those. Seven have accepted placement elsewhere with five still being managed. Does that assist you? The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: It does. So in total how many jobs will be lost? Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: Well, no, I have to say at the moment they are still being managed— eight. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: Eight will be lost. Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: Eight are still being managed. The others have either accepted voluntary redundancy— The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: Minister, you have taken a decision to retire those two centres some time ago. I would have thought that you would have had those figures at your fingertips. Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: Well, they are right here. Again, there have been seven VRs offered and accepted. Do not forget we have a head count of correctional officers of all ranks of 5,554 and then, of course, you add on the total so there is a total headcount of around 9,000, almost 10,000. So it is not unusual to have people who, as they go through their work life, accept a voluntary redundancy. Again, eight at Brewarrina and seven at Ivanhoe. Nine at Brewarrina and seven at Ivanhoe have accepted additional placements. For many of these centres it was very much a fly in, fly out. You actually had people rotating through them anyway and then still being managed—again, three at Brewarrina and five at Ivanhoe. Commissioner, did you want to add to that? Commissioner SEVERIN: Only to say that there is obviously, with the significant prison bed capacity program, a net increase of roles across the State, including in regional areas. Hunter Correctional Centre has 220 new roles. Macquarie Correctional Centre has 220 new roles— The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: I was just interested in the local area, Brewarrina and Ivanhoe. Minister, how much money do you expect to save from the closure? Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: The retirement of those facilities. Again, these are two of five facilities that are either no longer fit for purpose—and when I say fit for purpose, with respect to ongoing costs, at times, but importantly it is the delivery of services and ensuring that our staff work in safe environments. The Hon. SHAOQUETT MOSELMANE: Minister, it is a simple question: How much do you expect to save? Mr ANTHONY ROBERTS: Over the forward estimates? The Hon.
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