LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1469

OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 18 November 2020

The Council met at Eleven o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, G.B.S., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.

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THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN, B.B.S.

THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING, B.B.S.

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, S.B.S., M.H., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, S.B.S., J.P.

IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, S.B.S., M.H., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN

THE HONOURABLE JIMMY NG WING-KA, B.B.S., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE JUNIUS HO KWAN-YIU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HOLDEN CHOW HO-DING

THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-FAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WILSON OR CHONG-SHING, M.H.

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THE HONOURABLE YUNG HOI-YAN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PIERRE CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHUN-YING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LUK CHUNG-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LAU KWOK-FAN, M.H.

THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LAU IP-KEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHENG CHUNG-TAI

THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG WING-SHUN, M.H., J.P.

MEMBERS ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG

PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H.

THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG

DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN

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THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WAN SIU-KIN

THE HONOURABLE LAM CHEUK-TING

THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-CHUN

THE HONOURABLE KWONG CHUN-YU

THE HONOURABLE JEREMY TAM MAN-HO

THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN, B.B.S., J.P.

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE

THE HONOURABLE JOHN LEE KA-CHIU, S.B.S., P.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY

THE HONOURABLE FRANK CHAN FAN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING

PROF THE HONOURABLE SOPHIA CHAN SIU-CHEE, J.P. SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH

THE HONOURABLE ALFRED SIT WING-HANG, J.P. SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY

DR CHOI YUK-LIN, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION

DR BERNARD CHAN PAK-LI, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

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DR CHUI TAK-YI, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH

MR JOSEPH CHAN HO-LIM, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY

CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:

MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL

MISS ODELIA LEUNG HING-YEE, DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL

MISS FLORA TAI YIN-PING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

MS DORA WAI, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members to the Chamber.

(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members entered the Chamber)

LAYING OF PAPERS ON THE TABLE OF THE COUNCIL

The following papers were laid on the table under Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Subsidiary Legislation Legal Notice No.

Statute Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Ordinance 2020 (Commencement) Notice ...... 215 of 2020

Prevention and Control of Disease (Compulsory Testing for Certain Persons) Regulation ...... 221 of 2020

Other Papers

Fire Services Department Welfare Fund Report on the Administration of the Fund, Financial Statements and Report of the Director of Audit for the year ended 31 March 2020

Director of Social Welfare Incorporated Financial Statements for the year ended 31 March 2020 (including Report of the Director of Audit)

Environment and Conservation Fund Trustee Report 2019-2020 (including Report of the Director of Audit and Financial Statements)

Secretary for Home Affairs Incorporated Financial Statements and Report of the Director of Audit for the year ended 31 March 2020

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Sir Edward Youde Memorial Fund Report of the Board of Trustees, Financial Statements and Report of the Director of Audit for the Period 1 April 2019 to 31 March 2020

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First question.

Since Mr James TO, the Member asking this question, is not present, according to the relevant provisions in the Rules of Procedure, I now call upon Ms Starry LEE to ask this question.

Ms Starry LEE, please raise the question.

Changes in Hong Kong's economy, rule of law and freedom as well as society

1. MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported that with the Law of the People's Republic of China on Safeguarding National Security in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region coming into operation on 30 June this year, aspects of Hong Kong such as economy, rule of law and freedom, as well as society have shown accelerated changes. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council, since the beginning of this year:

(1) of the countries which have implemented economic sanction measures on Hong Kong (including the revocation of preferential treatments); the bilateral economic and trade agreements the signing or implementation of which has been deferred, or which have been suspended or rescinded; the foreign technology groups or electronic data storage providers which have denied access of the Securities and Futures Commission to their clients' financial data stored at data centres; the international economic and trade, cultural and educational exchange programmes organized with Hong Kong which have been suspended (set out in a table);

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(2) of the bilateral judicial agreements (including agreements on surrender of fugitive offenders and legal assistance) the signing or implementation of which has been deferred, or which have been suspended or rescinded; the overseas TechNet companies which have suspended the processing of the Hong Kong Police's requests for seeking users' information; the changes in Hong Kong's global rankings in terms of rule of law and freedom in the past 12 months; and

(3) of the respective numbers of Hong Kong people who have applied for Certificates of No Criminal Conviction on grounds of emigration and pursuing further studies, as well as the respective numbers of university, secondary school and primary school students who have dropped out (with a breakdown by reasons); how such figures compare with the figures for the same periods in the past two years; whether it has estimated if such figures will continue to rise in future, and assessed the impacts of such trend on the development of Hong Kong?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, having consulted the Department of Justice, the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau, the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau, the Education Bureau ("EDB"), the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau and the Home Affairs Bureau, my consolidated reply to the Member's question is as follows:

It is the common and international practice for various countries in the world to safeguard national security through legislation. As national security falls within the purview of the Central Authorities, our country has the right to legislate for the matter. The Law of the People's Republic of China on Safeguarding National Security in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ("the National Security Law") establishes effective legal system and enforcement mechanisms for safeguarding national security in Hong Kong, solidifying and strengthening the "one country, two systems" principle, Hong Kong people administering Hong Kong, and a high degree of autonomy. The National Security Law clearly stipulates that human rights shall be respected and protected in safeguarding national security in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ("HKSAR"), and that the legitimate rights and freedoms which residents LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1477 enjoy shall be protected. The freedoms and rights enjoyed by residents under the Basic Law remain intact; and the judicial independence remains totally unchanged. The implementation of the National Security Law has reversed the chaotic situation involving conspiracy to attain "Hong Kong Independence" and serious violence in the past year, and restored stability in Hong Kong, thereby allowing the city to resume its normal operation and return to the path of development.

Some countries have a large number and broad variety of national security laws, but have adopted unreasonable targeted measures against HKSAR using the National Security Law as an excuse for political purpose. In respect of bilateral judicial agreements, such measures include suspending the operation or halting the ratification of the agreements on surrender of fugitive offenders ("SFO Agreements") with HKSAR, and terminating the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Agreement. In particular, the United States ("US") unilaterally suspended the implementation of its SFO Agreement with HKSAR, and terminated the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Agreement with Hong Kong. The Fulbright Hong Kong Research Scholar Award Programme has also been suspended by the US. The US also announced on its own a new requirement in respect of changing the origin marking of Hong Kong products to "China" in August, and also tightened export control on Hong Kong. The US will also terminate the Agreement concerning Tax Exemptions from the Income Derived from the International Operation of Ship on 1 January next year.

The HKSAR Government strongly objects to the bullying acts of the US. Regarding the unreasonable arrangement in respect of the origin marking of Hong Kong products, the HKSAR Government formally launched on 30 October the procedures under the Dispute Settlement Mechanism of the World Trade Organization. Moreover, the HKSAR Government, in accordance with the instruction of the Central People's Government, has suspended the implementation of the SFO Agreement and agreement on mutual legal assistance in criminal matters with the US.

As for bilateral economic and trade, no agreement has been suspended or terminated due to the implementation of the National Security Law, and no international economic and trade exchange or cultural programme has been suspended.

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Regarding the rule of law, Hong Kong has been ranking among the world's best in the international rankings in respect of the rule of law since reunification. Despite the series of serious violent events last June, the foundation of rule of law in Hong Kong remains intact, and has been reflected in multiple rankings; for example, the rankings in areas concerning the rule of law in the Rule of Law Index 2020 released by the World Justice Project and the World Competitiveness Yearbook 2020 published by the International Institute for Management Development have not undergone much change.

That said, violent riots since June 2019 indeed undermined the law and order and public safety of Hong Kong, thus affecting the ranking of Hong Kong concerning law and order. The series of serious violent events since June last year upset the law and order and safety which Hong Kong had enjoyed over the years. Rioters set fire, extensively vandalized properties, recklessly assaulted people of opposite stances, and took laws in their own hands. The media was loaded with fake and misleading information, discrediting the work of the Police, resulting in unprecedented difficulties and challenges which the Police faced in law enforcement. Manpower resources of the Police were also tight due to the need to deal with a large number of violent events. Coupled with interference and support from external forces for such violent acts, personal safety in Hong Kong suffered unparalleled impairment and threat. In essence, the violent riots are the root cause leading to the fall in the overall ranking concerning law and order.

Regarding the ranking concerning freedom mentioned in the question, we are not aware of any new ranking report published in relation to the National Security Law.

On the collection of users' information of overseas website, the Police will, based on practical need, request relevant individuals/organizations (including local and overseas) to provide information, and may exercise applicable powers conferred by the law. If any individual/organization does not conform to the legal requirements, the Police will handle the matter according to the relevant laws. In Hong Kong, every individual and organization is regulated by the laws of Hong Kong, and nowhere is above the law. Regarding the Securities and Futures Commission, no direct contact has been made with technology companies or electronic data storage providers regarding client information.

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As regards the number of application for the Certificate of No Criminal Conviction ("CNCC"), from 2017 to 2019, the number of applications were about 22 000, 23 000 and 33 000 respectively. Apart from emigration, the purposes of applying for CNCC also include overseas study, exchange visitors and adoption of children. The Hong Kong Police Force has not maintained information on the breakdown of applications by purpose.

In respect of education, under the existing mechanism, primary and secondary schools have to report their students' non-attendance and departure cases to EDB. As cases of students' departure involve different factors and some students may resume schooling later, we are not able to provide information on the number of students withdrawing from schools.

As regard universities, according to the information provided by University Grants Committee ("UGC")-funded universities, the numbers of students who discontinued their studies of UGC-funded programmes in the 2016-2017, 2017-2018 and 2018-2019 academic years remained at around 1 900. Details are at Annex.

The decision to discontinue studies may be due to a number of reasons, including employment, family factors, health reasons, going to a different school/institution, financial difficulties, academic performances, etc. EDB does not speculate on the number of future discontinuation cases. Our local universities have a solid foundation in terms of academic standards and are well regarded internationally. EDB will continue to support them in nurturing quality talents for the development of Hong Kong.

The implementation of the National Security Law has reversed the chaotic situation in Hong Kong in the past year, whereby violent acts have substantially reduced, external forces are observed to have diminished, and advocacy of "Hong Kong Independence" continues to subside. With people's lives returning to normal, our economy and people's livelihood can revive (except for the reason of the epidemic). The National Security Law has stopped chaos and restored order in Hong Kong, ensuring the smooth and continuous implementation of "one country, two systems" and the long-term prosperity and stability of Hong Kong.

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Annex

Numbers of Students who Discontinued their Studies of UGC-funded Programmes in the 2016-2017 to 2018-2019 Academic Year by Reasons for Discontinuing Studies

Headcount Reasons for discontinuing studies 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 Academic reasons 785 738 668 (e.g. continuation of study in another institution, unsatisfactory academic results, Voluntary etc.) Non-academic reasons 398 399 481 (e.g. emigration, employment, financial considerations, health, etc.) Failure to provide any reason 139 138 167 Termination of study by 594 587 563 universities (e.g. terminated by universities for academic or disciplinary Involuntary reasons, prolonged absence without notifying the universities, etc.) Death 13 11 9 Total 1 929 1 873 1 888

Notes:

(1) Breakdown figures regarding the 2019-2020 academic year are not yet available.

(2) The figures above cover full-time and part-time UGC-funded sub-degree, undergraduate and taught postgraduate programmes.

MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, over the recent period, Hong Kong has unfortunately become a major battleground in the game of major powers. More regrettably, some Hong Kong people and organizations constantly went to foreign countries to bad-mouth Hong Kong, and some of them even requested foreign countries to impose sanctions on Hong Kong and our LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1481 country. As indicated in the Secretary's reply, it is a common and international practice to legislate on national security, which is a matter under the purview of the Central Authorities, and our country has the right to legislate on this. In fact, following the enactment of the National Security Law, many residents in the local districts have told me that as order has been restored, they need not be fearful of being subject to vigilante attacks or being intercepted at any time when going out, and they need not worry about their shops being set on fire at any time.

May I ask the Secretary whether, as the international community may have misunderstandings about the actual situation of Hong Kong or a lot of biased remarks are still being made following the enactment and implementation of the National Security Law, the Government will think outside the box and organize some key opinion leaders to inform the international community of the actual situation in Hong Kong, so as to reverse such biased remarks from the international community? Can he tell us about the plan concerned?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): I would like to thank Ms Starry LEE for raising a question in this regard and suggesting how the SAR Government should publicize the positive impacts of the National Security Law on HKSAR. First, I would like to tell everyone clearly the true facts about how the National Security Law has reversed the chaotic situation in Hong Kong over the past year as mentioned by me just now. In this connection, we have done a lot of work in providing figures, including having officials of the SAR and other persons who have obtained the relevant information speak to different people, local or foreign, on various occasions. The public information provided by us, including the information provided to the Legislative Council, explains how outrageous the chaotic situation in the past is. For example, the paving bricks removed were enough to build 48 basketball courts and the railings dismantled were equal to the height of more than 120 Two International Finance Centres. We provide these figures to give people an idea of how outrageous the situation was. We also compiled cases of vigilantism to show people how chaotic Hong Kong was back then. Certainly, we will also publicize how Hong Kong has turned from bad to good or from negative to positive.

On the other hand, we are keeping an eye and collecting figures on economic activities or business operation, such as setting up of companies and capital flows, telling people that perception may not be consistent with reality in many cases. In reality, there are no particular areas that warrant our concern, but 1482 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 there are some figures which we believe should be made public. There have been positive developments in the chaotic situation in Hong Kong caused by protests and the number of people arrested by us. For example, over the four-month period following the commencement of the National Security Law, the number of people arrested due to riots in society has dropped by some 70%, and the number of people who came out to stir up trouble on special days, such as 1 October, has also dropped by some 90%. We will also provide these figures. In addition, we will also collect and publicize positive figures on the economy and student exchanges that I have just mentioned. We will use figures to present objectively the positive situation.

MR JIMMY NG (in Cantonese): President, due to efforts made by political groups with ulterior motives, foreign countries certainly hold unfair and negative views on the National Security Law. In fact, with the novel coronavirus pneumonia wreaking havoc all over the world, our country has been actively promoting the dual-circulation strategy at home and abroad. The international community should strengthen cooperation rather than continue with confrontation. Only by doing so will they be able to overcome existing challenges and facilitate economic recovery. The recently signed Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership is a good case in point. As some recent surveys do indicate concerns of foreign enterprises about the National Security Law, will the Government further step up communication with foreign chambers of commerce and revamp its overseas publicity strategy to make them understand that not only does the National Security Law have no negative impacts on Hong Kong's rule of law and free business environment, but it also has positive impacts? Recently, quite a number of media outlets have quoted the views of the Securities and Futures Commission on how foreign financial institutions should deal with sanctions imposed by the US and whether they would violate the National Security Law. As the messages are confusing, will the Government clarify or elaborate on them?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I will first give an overall account of what the SAR Government has been doing in this regard, and then I will invite the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau and the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau to provide additional information.

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Following the promulgation and implementation of the National Security Law, all officials of the SAR Government have publicized the National Security Law through various channels. Apart from doing television interviews and attending Legislative Council meetings to take questions, we have also promoted the law through Hong Kong economic and trade offices in various places. We have also conducted webinars to explain the positive impacts of the National Security Law on Hong Kong. We stress that the economy or people's livelihood of any place is founded on an important basis, namely, stability and security. As such, the National Security Law has reversed the chaotic situation over the past year and restored stability to Hong Kong society, thus facilitating the resumption of any economic activity. This is exactly an opportunity, for if anyone considers withdrawing his investment out of ignorance, he is virtually creating a better opportunity for others to enter. For this reason, regarding how to make people understand what advantages we possess and how they should use this opportunity to participate in the overall trade and development of Hong Kong, we will use various means to offer our explanations. Next let me see if the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau has anything to add in this regard.

UNDER SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I would like to thank Mr NG for his supplementary question. Nowadays, some 10 000 non-Hong Kong companies have established headquarters or offices in Hong Kong, the total value of investments amounts to over $20 trillion, and we have over 2 000 listed companies. They have chosen to establish their bases or invest in Hong Kong because they have confidence in the robust financial and trade systems of Hong Kong. To maintain the effectiveness or advantages of our systems, a safe and stable society is very important. The National Security Law provides safeguards in this regard, and maintains such advantages. As indicated by Mr NG just now, many enterprises will attach a great deal of importance to our country's dual-circulation development strategy focusing on domestic and foreign markets. And an aspect in which international investors and multinational firms attach the greatest deal of importance to Hong Kong is its role as an international city in our country's certain strategies, including the Belt and Road Initiative, the development plan of the Greater Bay Area and the master blueprint for innovative technology. I believe that the National Security Law also provides Hong Kong with safeguards in this aspect. For this reason, the investment climate in Hong Kong will become more favourable and business activities will become smoother.

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UNDER SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I would like to thank Mr NG for his supplementary question. As indicated by the Secretary just now, we have communicated with various sectors of the financial services industry, and clearly explain the stance and viewpoint of the Government, that is, the SAR Government is determined to safeguard the integrity of Hong Kong's financial system. We also stress that the implementation of the National Security Law will have no impact whatsoever on the normal operation of our financial market. As stated by the Secretary, the means of communication include video conferencing and face-to-face meeting with or correspondance with industry stakeholders and organizations. Apart from the Government, our regulators also maintain communication with various local and overseas professional bodies and financial industry bodies, and disseminate relevant information to various stakeholders of the industry in Hong Kong and overseas.

DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): Following the implementation of the National Security Law, the reaction of the market was immediate. Many members of the public are concerned that the withdrawal of foreign investments will cause the further collapse of Hong Kong's market economy. In mid-July, some 35% of American firms in Hong Kong surveyed by the American Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong had plans to move their operations or assets out of Hong Kong, and some 30% of them would do so in the medium to long run. Subsequently, Vanguard, the world's second-largest fund manager, announced that it would move its operations out of Hong Kong.

Capital, talent and investments are flowing out, and many local economic development projects have been obviously impeded. For example, the Ant Group's much publicized attempt to go public failed at the very last minute, Huawei Technologies Company Limited is also selling off its phone-related business in Hong Kong, and state-owned enterprises are obviously heavily indebted. May I ask the Government whether it has really studied, when Hong Kong is being isolated by and decoupled from the international community, whether the economic and livelihood prospects of Hong Kong are as optimistic as the Government claims? Is the Government really confident that the development of the Greater Bay Area can make up for Hong Kong's reputation as a free market economy over the past decades or century?

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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, we must first understand that the targeted and unreasonable measures adopted by many countries against the National Security Law are based on political motives, as the scope of the National Security Law is narrower than that of their own national security laws. As such, we must discern the situation, that is, many countries are using the National Security Law to take commercial actions against our country. Only when we have discerned the situation can we discuss the real impacts of the National Security Law on all economic activities. The adoption of certain measures by certain countries is politically motivated, but when it comes to normal commercial activities, they will examine whether Hong Kong is really worth investing and developing here. Most importantly, Hong Kong possesses many advantages, such as low tax rates, highly-efficient government departments, an open society, proximity to the Mainland of China, and participation in the development of the Greater Bay Area. These are exactly factors to be considered by any commercial organization at the time of investing. Stability is a factor, and opportunity is also a factor.

In addition, the figures from Macao following its enactment of a national security law tell us wih certainty that if anyone in Hong Kong has any qualms about the National Security Law, he may have made a very wrong decision. Following its enactment of a national security law in 2009, Macao has seen its GDP rising from MOP$171,400 million to MOP$434,600 million in 2019, an increase of some MOP$263 billion. Following the enactment of a new national security law in China, we have seen not only economic growth but also increases in foreign investments and the number of foreign firms newly established in China. In our transitional period, there may be uncertainties. This is understandable to me, as any change can give rise to such a situation. However, as I have said just now, this is an opportunity, and one with good judgment will use this opportunity for greater development and achievement.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second question.

Protecting Hong Kong buyers of properties outside Hong Kong

2. MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, in recent years, it has been increasingly common for Hong Kong people to purchase properties outside Hong Kong, and scenarios in which the uncompleted properties failed to be 1486 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 delivered in the end or Hong Kong buyers suffered losses as a result of being misled by estate agents have been heard from time to time. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the number of complaints received by the authorities in the past three years about the sale of properties outside Hong Kong, and the total amount of money involved; whether there were cases in which the estate agents concerned were disciplined or prosecuted; if so, of the number and details; if not, the reasons for that;

(2) given that an estate agent who deals exclusively with properties outside Hong Kong may be exempted under the Estate Agents (Exemption from Licensing) Order from obtaining a local estate agent's licence, and is in effect not subject to the regulation by the Estate Agents Authority, whether any legislation and codes are currently in place to protect the interests of Hong Kong buyers; if so, of the details; if not, whether it will enact legislation or introduce legislative amendments to enhance the protection for Hong Kong buyers; and

(3) of the measures or legislation through which the authorities currently assist Hong Kong buyers in seeking compensation for the losses incurred in respect of their purchase of properties outside Hong Kong; whether there were cases in the past three years in which they assisted buyers in successfully seeking compensation; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, having consulted the Security Bureau, the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau, the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau and the Estate Agents Authority ("EAA"), I set out my consolidated reply to the question raised by Mr CHAN Han-pan as follows:

(1) From 2017 to 2019, EAA received 32 complaints that related to sale and purchase of properties situated outside Hong Kong. However, EAA does not have statistics on the amount of money involved in these cases. Of the 32 cases, four were substantiated and one case is still under investigation. The remaining 27 cases included complaints that were unsubstantiated, withdrawn, not pursuable due LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1487

to insufficient information or referred to the Police for investigation. Among the four substantiated complaints, the respective estate agency companies or estate agents have been reprimanded and fined, or EAA has issued a reminder of good practice to the concerned estate agency company.

Over the same period, the Consumer Council received 99 complaints related to properties situated outside Hong Kong and the amounts involved totalled over $36 million. The Customs and Excise Department ("C&ED") received 37 complaints that related to purchase of properties situated outside Hong Kong. C&ED has completed the investigation of 32 cases with no offence under the Trade Descriptions Ordinance (Cap. 362) detected, and referred the remaining five cases to relevant regulatory bodies for follow-up. As some complainants did not provide the amount of money involved in the cases, such information could not be provided. Besides, the Securities and Futures Commission ("SFC") received 60 complaints which involved collective investment schemes with non-local real estates, but SFC has not compiled statistics on the amount of money involved in these cases.

The Police have been maintaining the statistics of non-local property investment deception cases it received since 2018. In 2018 and 2019, a total of eight relevant cases were received, involving a total loss of around $182 million. The Police has arrested 12 persons in relation to these cases, including six holders of estate agent licences. The cases are still under investigation.

Since the complainants could lodge complaints to different organizations and the organizations could refer individual case(s) to another organization, the complaints or cases received by the above mentioned parties may involve the same cases.

(2) Pursuant to the Estate Agents (Exemption From Licensing) Order (Cap. 511B), a person shall be exempted from the requirement for obtaining an estate agent's licence if he handles exclusively properties outside Hong Kong; and states in all his documents (including pamphlets and brochures, etc.) and advertisements that he is not licensed to deal with any property situated in Hong Kong. However, if the concerned company or individual performs estate 1488 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

agency work for properties both within and outside Hong Kong, one should have obtained a licence issued by EAA and should be regulated by EAA. If a licensed estate agent/salesperson is suspected of breaching the Code of Ethics and practice circulars issued by EAA in the course of the sale of properties, regardless of whether the properties concerned are Hong Kong properties or not, EAA will investigate the matter.

In December 2017, EAA had issued a practice circular to provide guidelines to estate agent licensees on the appropriate practices and measures to be adopted in handling the sale of uncompleted properties situated outside Hong Kong. These practices and measures, amongst others, include due diligence measures and record keeping requirements. The guidelines have taken effect since 1 April 2018. Licensees who breach the guidelines may be subject to disciplinary actions. The guidelines are not only binding on the licensed estate agents, but also provide a reference for consumers to assess whether the sales arrangements adopted by individual persons (including the exempted persons) are appropriate.

There could be substantial differences between the sale of properties situated outside Hong Kong and those in Hong Kong from both the perspectives of market operation and conduct regulation. Moreover, the sale of properties situated outside Hong Kong involves not only various stakeholders (e.g. non-local developers, intermediaries and agents) but also the laws and regulations as well as tax regimes of different jurisdictions. Furthermore, as it is not mandatory for Hong Kong buyers to engage estate agents in purchasing non-local properties, and vendors can carry out sale and promotional activities easily through the Internet, the issue could not be completely addressed even if there is no exemption granted to persons who handle exclusively properties situated outside Hong Kong from obtaining estate agent licences. We consider that enhancing public education should be a more effective approach. EAA and the Consumer Council have all along been putting much effort in educating the public. They have from time to time reminded consumers, through various channels, to be aware of the risks and issues to pay attention to before deciding to purchase non-local properties.

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(3) From 2017 to 2019, the Consumer Council successfully assisted complainants in 13 cases through conciliation in recovering the deposits paid for the purchase of properties situated outside Hong Kong. Separately, as at September 2020, the Police are still investigating the eight cases of non-local property investment deception mentioned in part (1) above. If the persons arrested are convicted in legal proceedings, the court is empowered by the Magistrates Ordinance and the Criminal Procedure Ordinance to order the offenders to pay the aggrieved persons such compensation that it considers reasonable.

MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, purchasing overseas properties in Hong Kong is like buying a cow from afar. According to what the Secretary said earlier, the conditions of the properties concerned and the truthfulness of the information provided to the buyers by the estate agents in the exhibition halls are not under any regulation. But over the years, as mentioned in the Secretary's reply, the amount of money involved is substantial, amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars.

As the Secretary pointed out in part (2) of the main reply, an estate agent is subject to regulation if he handles the sale of both local and overseas properties. It means that an estate agent who handles exclusively the sale of overseas properties is not subject to regulation at all. Even though he may have added a line in the advertisement, I have read some of these advertisements online and found that the font size is so small that the words are hardly visible, not to mention that the sentence is very long. In this connection, I hope that the authorities will be willing to plug this loophole. May I ask the Secretary whether the exemption from licensing order can be abolished, so that all transactions of overseas properties conducted in Hong Kong will be regulated under the law to ensure that each and every such transaction is conducted under the Government's regulation and that the public are protected by the law in case they run into any problem?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): I agree with Mr CHAN Han-pan that there are indeed a lot of risks in purchasing overseas properties in Hong Kong. Firstly, the laws and regulations, and also the financial conditions or even the estate agents vary from one place to another. Secondly, with regard to purchases of overseas properties, according to what we 1490 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 have seen before, uncompleted properties were involved in most cases. Such being the case, the strength and financial capability of the developers are most crucial factors. Therefore, the Government has disseminated information to the public through many channels of publicity and education, and even organized seminars and provided information online. Moreover, a booklet on "Purchasing Non-local Properties Be SMART", which gives an account of the issues that warrant attention in purchasing overseas properties, is published for the reference of the people of Hong Kong.

To be frank, it is a big investment to purchase a property. It is necessary to seek the assistance of professionals in Hong Kong because for such an important issue as purchasing properties situated outside Hong Kong, just as the television promotional clips have said, professional assistance is a must. In this connection, I hope that Hong Kong citizens who intend to purchase overseas properties will engage or consult professionals and seek their assistance. It is because in many cases, after the investors purchased properties situated outside Hong Kong, they would find discrepancies between the bank's valuation of their properties and their own expectation or affordability. They would even find that the details of the properties were not entirely the same as the photographs or the information obtained by the investors themselves. Therefore, different risks are actually involved in making investment on overseas properties. Members of the public should be very careful about it.

Regulation by legislation is an option. According to the figures from 2017 to 2019, EAA received about 10 complaints a year, whereas the Consumer Council received about 30 cases on average. Compared with the large number of uncompleted properties outside of Hong Kong when the issue was raised, we have seen that the situation has improved quite considerably. We will closely monitor the situation and continuous to step up publicity and education efforts targetting the public and provide information for the public to make the right judgment. Our view is that when purchasing non-local properties in Hong Kong, members of the public should, most importantly, grasp more information, do more research, and engage professionals to seek their professional advice as far as possible.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Han-pan, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

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MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the supplementary question that I asked just now was very clear. I asked him whether the Estate Agents (Exemption from Licensing) Order would be abolished … because the Secretary said that it would be necessary to engage professionals to …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have already pointed out the part of your supplementary question that has not been answered. Please sit down. Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, the exemption from licensing order is meant to grant exemption to people who handle the sale of overseas properties in Hong Kong but are not involved in the sale of any local property, in which case they are not required to be licensed estate agents or salespersons. Looking back at what happened in the past few years when people purchased overseas properties, this is a practicable approach and it was also a consideration at the time of the legislation.

I understand Mr CHAN's concern that some members of the public have suffered losses from purchasing overseas properties and that they even found inconsistencies between the actual conditions of the properties and their descriptions. But most importantly, whether this issue should be addressed through regulation by legislation or publicity and education, we have to consider which approach is more effective and practicable. In the final analysis, the purchase of overseas properties involves the legislation, regulation on property and even various other issues in different jurisdictions, which indeed require the assistance of professionals.

MR CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN (in Cantonese): President, I found that a very interesting phenomenon was mentioned in the main reply given by the Secretary earlier and that is, if overseas property developers intending to sell properties in Hong Kong hire estate agents in Hong Kong, these agents are nevertheless subject to regulation and are required to perform due diligence by at least looking up the identity of the title owner of the site in question. If they failed to perform due diligence, they would be subject to disciplinary hearings and even sanctions by EAA.

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However, under the exemption from licensing order that we talked about just now, overseas developers are not necessarily required to hire local estate agents when putting up properties for sale in Hong Kong. They can hire anybody who can be good-looking models, because they can be granted exemption so long as they clearly indicated in the advertisement that they are not licensed to deal with the sale of local properties in Hong Kong. Secretary, if you are an overseas property developer selling properties in Hong Kong, what incentives are there for you to hire estate agents in Hong Kong? It is because local estate agents are required to perform their professional responsibilities which include conducting due diligence by putting a lot of questions to the overseas developer. But if some good-looking models are hired instead, the overseas developers would not have to respond to so many questions and better still, the purpose of promoting sales could well be served.

Therefore, my question is this: Under the exemption from licensing order, what are the reasons for overseas developers to hire the service of professional estate agents in Hong Kong, as the Secretary said just now, to enable investors in Hong Kong to be provided with the assistance of professional estate agents? There is no incentive at all. Is the exemption from licensing order providing protection for investors in Hong Kong or is it producing just the opposite result?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr CHEUNG for his supplementary question. As I said in the main reply earlier, when putting up properties for sale in Hong Kong, overseas property developers can consider hiring or engaging the service of local estate agents. Besides, thanks to technological advancement, they can also promote the sale of their properties direct online. As a matter of fact, Members can find plenty of information on property development online, and even in terms of transaction arrangements, the Internet can somewhat facilitate property transactions too.

Therefore, with the advancement of technology and the convenience of online shopping nowadays, it is certainly best to see physically all the properties and make purchases through estate agents in Hong Kong, members of the public should, in purchasing properties, also consider whether licensed estate agents in Hong Kong are engaged as intermediaries of the properties concerned, for this is a choice too. We must bear in mind that we can examine an issue from various perspectives. From the angle of members of the public purchasing overseas LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1493 properties, if they understood that many risks and considerations are involved in the process, should they not put in more efforts? It would be desirable for members of the public to purchase properties situated outside Hong Kong through licensed estate agents in Hong Kong. But as I said just now, the public can make a deal with overseas property developers direct through the Internet and even by many other ways, such as paying a visit in person to inspect the property before buying it, and all this involves different jurisdictions. If a piece of legislation should be enacted to regulate the sale of properties situated outside Hong Kong, Members will understand that this actually would be a most complicated and difficult challenge, not to mention the need for this piece of legislation to cover different jurisdictions and the relevant laws and regulations. The aspects involved in purchasing overseas properties in Hong Kong are actually rather complicated.

Therefore, we have adopted a down-to-earth, practicable and effective approach, making ongoing efforts to carry out publicity and education over the years. In the past three years, i.e. from 2017 to 2019, we can see some improvement in the number of complaints received. EAA handled a total 32 cases; the Consumer Council received 99 cases; and there is also improvement in the figures of C&ED, SFC and the Police. We understand the concerns of Members. We will keep a close watch on the situation. We will, in due course, further conduct an analysis and review the actual situation of the time. But for the time being, I think it is not the most appropriate arrangement to merely amend the legislation.

MS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, just now the Secretary kept telling people to engage professionals, but does he know that when members of the public purchased overseas properties, they really thought that they had already engaged professionals to handle their cases because the advertisements were very professional, so were those people in making introductions on the properties. They had even engaged well-known companies to make the purchase but it turned out that their property contracts were handled by another company because the two companies bear the same name in that one is a property agency and the other is in charge of the sale and purchase of properties situated outside Hong Kong. This is exactly what is happening now. How can the authorities protect the public? The Government cannot simply tell people to be more careful and beware of bad guys. If everyone has this ability or is able to tell them apart, nobody would have fallen into these frauds. They certainly thought that they 1494 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 had already exercised great care, and they must have thought that the people were trustworthy or they must have been referred by other people before deciding to make the purchase.

Therefore, apart from just telling the public to watch out for bad guys, Secretary, what else can you do to help prevent them from falling into these frauds? What regulation can the Government impose?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, I thank Ms MAK for her supplementary question. I understand that indeed, thanks to the flow of information in Hong Kong and as Hong Kong is also a melting pot of the east and the west, many business and trade transactions can be concluded in Hong Kong. But we must understand that in purchasing properties situated outside Hong Kong, the public must pay attention to the risks involved. First, as Ms MAK said just now, the public should check with reliable professionals because the background of the property developers, builders and companies is most important. In fact, any person who wishes to engage in the sale of overseas properties in Hong Kong and be exempted from obtaining a licence must indicate clearly in all the papers, public notices and advertisements that he is not an agent for properties in Hong Kong. Therefore, any person engaging in the sale of properties situated outside Hong Kong without declaring or clearly indicating this point is suspected of breaching the laws of Hong Kong.

I hope that people intending to purchase properties situated outside Hong Kong should consider the market, legal provisions and tax regime of that place, or they should even consider paying a visit there to conduct an inspection. They should also find out whether they can recover the deposit in case the transaction is called off. In these respects, I agree that ordinary members of the public may not be able to grasp all the details but in the process and in making such an important investment decision as purchasing overseas properties, smart consumers do need to seek assistance from professionals, not only from estate agents, for they can also be property consultants, lawyers or financial advisers. I hope to continuously step up our work in publicity and education in future and make greater efforts to enhance public understanding and incentivize them to do more research when purchasing overseas properties, so that their rights and interests can be better protected.

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): In the last two oral questions, only three Members could ask a supplementary question. I urge Members to refrain from making lengthy comments in asking supplementary questions, and I also urge Directors of Bureau to give concise replies.

Third question.

Assist the youth in securing employment

3. MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, as Hong Kong's economy has been hard hit by social disturbances and the epidemic, the unemployment rate has surged to 6.4% which is the highest in 16 years, and the unemployment rate of the youth aged 20 to 24 even stands as high as 20%. In addition to creating around 30 000 time-limited jobs in the coming two years, the Government will recruit over 10 000 civil servants and hire about 5 000 short-term youth interns. However, some academics have pointed out that as fresh graduates and the youth have less working experience, their unemployment rate will continue to climb. On the other hand, the rapid economic development of the Mainland cities in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Greater Bay Area") in recent years can provide quite a number of employment opportunities for the youth of Hong Kong, but this requires the Government's provision of more support measures and incentives for them. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the progress of the work to create jobs for the youth, with a breakdown of such jobs by the industry to which such jobs belong and the job type;

(2) of the measures in place to help and facilitate youth who are interested in going to the Mainland cities in the Greater Bay Area for career development, to have a better grasp of the information on living, the job markets and working environments in such cities, with a view to helping them seek employment there and overcome barriers; and

(3) whether it has plans to collaborate with the business sector in creating job opportunities in Hong Kong and the Mainland cities in the Greater Bay Area for the youth, and to step up job matching services for them; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

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SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, having consulted the relevant bureaux and department, my reply to the Member's question is set out below:

(1) The Job Creation Scheme under the Anti-epidemic Fund will create 30 000 time-limited jobs in the public and private sectors in the coming two years for people of different skill sets and academic qualifications to relieve the worsening unemployment situation due to the epidemic. As graduates and young people lacking work experience have encountered great difficulties in finding job opportunities, many of the jobs under the Job Creation Scheme are created specifically for fresh graduates, or especially suitable for young people to apply. Among the some more than 20 000 jobs already created, nearly 10 000 belong to this type of positions. With elements or training conducive to long-term career development specially included in these job positions, young people will be able to gain the necessary work experience. For example, around 2 000 jobs are created to subsidize private employers to employ graduates and assistant professionals from the engineering, architecture, surveying, town planning and landscape streams. More than 2 000 jobs are created to subsidize the financial services sectors, local fintech companies, start-ups and other enterprises engaging in fintech-related businesses to employ staff. More than 500 jobs are created to subsidize private companies to employ fresh graduates working in areas related to environmental protection. There are also jobs created in other sectors such as new positions specifically for university graduates in the logistics sector. In addition, there are also time-limited jobs for handling executive and clerical work in government departments, and training subsidy schemes for university graduates and trainee places, etc.

(2) The Home Affairs Bureau ("HAB") subsidizes non-governmental organizations ("NGOs") through the Funding Scheme for Youth Internship in the Mainland to organize Mainland internship activities for local young people, with a view to enabling them to see for themselves the actual workplace environment of the Mainland, as well as acquire a deeper understanding of the employment market, work culture and development opportunities therein. In particular, being one of the major cooperation initiatives between Hong Kong LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1497

and Guangdong, the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area Hong Kong Youth Internship Scheme launched under the Funding Scheme for Youth Internship in the Mainland has been expanded to cover all the Mainland cities in Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("GBA") since last year. Approximately 950 young people have taken up internship placements in GBA, from which they have gained a deeper understanding of the labour market, workplace culture and career prospects of the Mainland. It has also helped our young people set their career goals ahead, accumulate work experience and build interpersonal networks, thus facilitating their future development in GBA.

In addition, a new funding scheme has been introduced under HAB's Youth Development Fund to subsidize NGOs to organize short-term experiential programmes at the innovation and entrepreneurial bases in the Mainland cities in GBA, with a view to enriching Hong Kong young people's understanding of the innovation and entrepreneurial bases, as well as the relevant policies and supporting measures on innovation and entrepreneurship of the Mainland. This will in turn assist the young people to consider settling in the relevant innovation and entrepreneurial bases and starting businesses therein in the future.

HAB will continue to enhance and expand the various youth internship and entrepreneurship programmes on the Mainland with a view to providing young people of Hong Kong deeper, wider and more diversified opportunities to explore GBA as well as other Mainland provinces and cities. By experiencing the local culture and conducting in-depth exchange with local young people, Hong Kong youth could gain a better understanding of and seize the opportunities in GBA and integrate in the overall development of the country.

(3) The Labour Department ("LD") provides comprehensive and free employment services to job seekers (including young people) through its job centres, industry-based recruitment centres and e-platform, etc., and works closely with employers from different industries, canvassing vacancies suitable for job seekers with 1498 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

different qualifications and work experience, with a view to assisting the job seekers in securing employment. The job centres also provide personalized employment advisory services for job seekers in need and help match them to suitable jobs.

To enhance the employability of young people, LD implements the Youth Employment and Training Programme ("YETP") to provide one-stop pre-employment and on-the-job training ("OJT") for young school leavers aged 15 to 24 with educational attainment at sub-degree level or below. In view of the deteriorating unemployment situation, LD increased the OJT allowance payable to employers under YETP in September 2020 to further encourage employers to engage young people. At the same time, LD launched a pilot scheme to encourage eligible young people participating in YETP to undergo and complete OJT through the provision of a retention allowance, thereby stabilizing employment.

LD has strengthened the liaison with various partners, including supporting the Hong Kong Chinese Enterprises Association in launching the New Graduates-New Opportunities Scheme. The scheme provides local university graduates 2 000 newly created vacancies lasting for not less than six months and offering a monthly salary of not less than HK$12,000.

LD has since 2015 organized in collaboration with relevant chamber of commerce a total of 12 large-scale thematic job fairs featuring employment and vacancy information of the Mainland to enhance the understanding of local job seekers (including young persons) on job opportunities and employment conditions on the Mainland (including GBA), and to assist them in finding suitable jobs. LD has also set up a dedicated web page of Information on Employment on the Mainland in its Interactive Employment Service website, providing information on job vacancies on the Mainland advertised by local employers, as well as introducing Mainland employment information.

The Government will continue to liaise with different sectors of the society to strive to create more employment opportunities in Hong Kong and GBA for young people.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1499

MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, in his reply to my question, the Secretary told the community, as if recounting the work done in the past, that if we wanted to talk about the effectiveness, we only had to discuss it with young people and we would know. Young people also know that business opportunities are in abundance in GBA. Yet, if they are asked to venture into GBA on their own to carve out their career, they really lack the conditions to do so and they may think that there are many insurmountable obstacles. Apart from openly calling on them to go to GBA for development, the Government has merely offered them such opportunities via the above programmes so far.

I think, in the long term, in order to encourage young people to work, study or live in GBA, the Government should formulate a specific policy in developing GBA to provide comprehensive assistance to young people, so that they can take the first step to venture into GBA.

Though the Government has said a lot in its reply, I hope the authorities will create additional jobs within a short time to alleviate the current pressure faced by young people. May I ask the Secretary if he considers adequate effort has being made? Or, will he continue to do something to increase the number of internship opportunities for young people in the short term, lower the unemployment rate and provide them with experiential and learning opportunities?

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): I will give a brief answer. On ways to assist young people in pursuing development in GBA, we should actually provide a series of work support services at the levels of visit, experience, internship placement, and even employment in order to do a good job. Hence, in our work in future, we will continue to explore ways to increase such opportunities, which certainly include employment opportunities, to facilitate young people from Hong Kong to find suitable jobs for development.

MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): President, as the epidemic continues, many countries around the world remain in lockdown, impeding economic exchanges and development.

Yet, when we look at the situation in the Mainland, the remarkable results of its anti-epidemic efforts are obvious to all. It will definitely become a new 1500 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 trend for the young people in Hong Kong to set their sights on the development of GBA. Yet, to some young people who lack the network and knowledge of the place, it is really not easy for them to develop in GBA.

In this connection, the business sector has started recruiting young people to work in GBA and we are more than willing to cooperate with the Government to promote the relevant work together. May I ask the Secretary about the policy the Government will adopt? I think the Government needs to set up a special task force to lead and guide young people to seek business opportunities in GBA, whether they are starting their own businesses, seeking employment or engaging in scientific researches. At the same time, the authorities should subsidize the development of young people in GBA. I hope the Government will consider my proposal. And if it accepts the proposal, it may make this a permanent arrangement.

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, as I said in my reply to the main question and that to Ms LEE's supplementary question, the work as a whole involves the participation of many departments, which may be described as cross-bureau and inter-departmental cooperation.

With regard to the framework and approach to be adopted in implementation, we will continue to explore it. Our work in GBA has just started for a short period of time and certain internship experience is only a few years. Regarding ways to assist individuals to seek employment or even start their own businesses, we will continue to explore ways to provide more opportunities for young people. As for the framework, we will take into account Members' views.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Jeffrey LAM, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): President, I ask the Secretary whether a task force will be set up and whether subsidies will be provided to those young people …

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have stated the part of your supplementary question which has not been answered. Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, financial assistance involves where the money comes from and how it is spent, whereas the implementation of the programme is a structural issue. Hence, it is not necessary to treat the two as the same.

MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, youth unemployment has not received inadequate or sufficient attention for a long period of time. In 2017-2018, the labour market was close to full employment―it could be regarded as full employment after deducting frictional unemployment. Yet, the unemployment rates of young people aged 15 to 24 for the same period were as high as 9.5% and 8.9%, which are the highest among various age groups. Under the influence of the economic downturn due to the COVID-19 epidemic, young people are facing the situation of "unemployment upon graduation". The youth unemployment rate is not merely the result of the uniformity in industrial structure in Hong Kong which stifles diversification, but also due to the lack of matching skills on the part of young people. Though most of the young people are willing to pursue continuing education, they still feel confused and lack the relevant knowledge in switching occupation.

Hence, the Government needs to adopt a multi-pronged approach to support the youth employment. In this connection, President, may I ask the Secretary of the details of the Government's macro policies and research work on coordinating industrial education and structural support for employment in the long run? In the short run, will the Secretary consider improving the training programmes for switching occupation, including matching the demand of the corresponding business sectors, as well as expanding the "first-hire-then-train" scheme and reintroducing subsidies for graduate employment training?

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, as the Member said, in the past, young people … I may say that this phenomenon does not merely occur in Hong Kong, similar situation is also found in the international community. The youth unemployment rate is 2.5 to 3.5 times of that of the general public. The reason is simple, that is, young people lack 1502 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 working experience. Hence, if we want to help young people to find their direction, we have to give them experiential and internship opportunities to ensure that they know their direction for future development. LD has carried out work in this aspect in the past. YETP has been implemented particularly for young people with qualifications below degree level, or what we say sub-degree level or below. As for university graduates, basically, all government-subsidized universities provide placement services to help their graduates seek employment, and even to help young people understand their future occupation orientation and choose their direction.

We will continue with the relevant work and make improvement. Against the background of high unemployment rate today, the proportion of youth unemployment, as mentioned earlier, will increase accordingly. Hence, we will definitely continue stepping up the relevant work to enhance and facilitate youth in securing employment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Martin LIAO, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, just now, I asked the Secretary whether he will strengthen the training work and make supportive arrangement to meet manpower requirements. Will the Secretary please reply the part about enhanced training?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, we will definitely strengthen our work in this aspect.

MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, in response to Ms Starry LEE's main question on assisting young people in securing employment, the Secretary has said a lot in his reply. I will say that the Government has all along been quite concerned about youth employment in the past. Yet, while our economy is in the doldrums due to the epidemic, the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1503 economy of the Mainland is starting to thrive, so how can we enable more people … particularly under the influence of "black-clad violence" last year, many young people have developed a hostile attitude towards and misunderstandings towards the Mainland. How can the Government change the knowledge and understanding of this group of young people about the situation in the Mainland? As long as they do not change, even if the Government introduces the so-called Mainland internship subsidy scheme for young people and provides them with a monthly subsidy of $10,000, they will still be reluctant to go, will they not? Hence, in this connection, will the Secretary introduce a new approach or outlook, so that young people nowadays will realize that if they go to GBA for development, they will have vast development possibilities and will be able to understand the current development of the country, instead of thinking, as they did last year, that we have to be separated from the Mainland? This is not the case. What I mean is how to make young people realize that economic integration with the Mainland is the prevailing trend.

Secretary, in this connection, what policies do the authorities have?

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, in order to make young people understand their future, particularly the development opportunities in GBA, promotion or discussion alone cannot convinced them. In fact, the most important work is to let them experience it for themselves. Hence, we need to give young people experience at various levels, including simple visits and brief experiences, followed by a longer internship period to help them find jobs and even further help them start their own businesses. This series of work have to be strengthened to enable young people to integrate into the development opportunities in GBA gradually through different stages of experiences.

MS YUNG HOI-YAN (in Cantonese): President, in a time when the unemployment rate is high, young people who have just graduated will definitely be the first to bear the brunt. The time required to find a job will certainly be longer and the opportunities will surely be fewer.

I notice that, last Friday, the Organization Department of Shenzhen Municipal Committee of the Communist Party of China ("CPC"), and Human Resources and Social Security Bureau of Shenzhen Municipality announced that Shenzhen will for the first time select its civil servants in Hong Kong and Macao. 1504 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

The mechanism is rightly in place now and the main question asked about how the authorities will assist young people to seek employment in GBA. The above plan will create five types of posts, with a total of 923 posts, employing a total of 1 069 persons. I believe this may alleviate youth unemployment.

May I ask how the authorities will support young people in Hong Kong to prepare for examinations on public knowledge, current affairs, Marxism, development in China and situation in Shenzhen, and so on, and how the authorities will promote this programme to more young people?

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, as I mentioned in my main reply, we will promote and provide the relevant information via various relevant departments and web pages as far as possible. Certainly, we will liaise with some local organizations, particularly certain platforms, which can help us disseminate the relevant information to young people. Hence, apart from the Government, we will also rely on the assistance of other enthusiastic business sector, other professional or district organizations in implementing the relevant work.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms YUNG Hoi-yan, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MS YUNG HOI-YAN (in Cantonese): In fact, the above programme is now underway. Yet, the reply from the Bureau is still very "vague". May I ask the authorities of the specific measures it will take to really help promote the above programme?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, the work is extensive and it is not "vague". Indeed, each item of work is concrete with the participation of a lot of people. We will continue to step up the relevant work.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1505

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, my supplementary question is: Has the Government formulated any policy or performance indicators in advance for assisting young people in securing employment, taking GBA as an example, and have the authorities estimated the number of young people who can settle, work or live in GBA as a result of the work of the Government?

Moreover, have any key performance indicators ("KPI") been put in place to measure the effectiveness of the Government's work in helping young people? One is about policies and the other is about indicators.

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, in the main reply earlier, I have mentioned various aspects, such as the subsidy scheme for Mainland internships. In fact, each programme has a clear target number to be achieved. I do not have the so-called "indicators" at hand, for there are quite a lot of programmes. For any development work in future, we will definitely set up some targets, such as the number of young people who will have the opportunities to experience, visit or have an internship placement and the duration of internship, and so on. If there are other arrangements in future, be it starting a business or securing employment, we will surely set up certain policy targets.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fourth question.

Conduct of Hospital Authority staff

4. MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported that while the Coronavirus Disease 2019 was raging on in Hong Kong, several thousand staff members of the Hospital Authority ("HA") responded to a call made by a trade union and went on strike from 3 to 7 February this year in an attempt to press HA to put forward to the Government the demand for implementing "border-closing" measures, etc. Furthermore, some HA staff members, while on duty, displayed slogans showing political stance and put on relevant accessories within the bounds of hospitals. Some patients have relayed that they were impolitely treated by such staff members and were even in panic. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council if it knows:

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(1) the number of HA patients who experienced delay in receiving diagnosis and treatment because of the aforesaid strike action and, among such patients, the number of those whose conditions deteriorated or who died as a result; the respective numbers of the relevant complaints and litigation cases received by HA from patients so far, and the total amount of compensation made;

(2) whether those staff members who participated in the aforesaid strike action will be punished; given that there are public opinions criticizing the strike action for being a case of political aspirations overriding professional commitment that recklessly disregarded patients' well-being, what specific measures the Government has put in place to prevent HA's services from being affected by strike action of the same kind in future; and

(3) what specific measures HA has put in place to ensure staff members' compliance with the requirements under HA's code of conduct (including dress code) while on duty, and to punish non-compliant staff members?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, the Government and the Hospital Authority ("HA") always take the safeguarding of public health as the top priority. It has also been the professionalism and the expectation of the general public for the healthcare professionals to accord priority to patients' health and stand fast at their posts. The absence from duty by certain HA staff during 3 to 7 February this year affected public hospital services. For example, specialist outpatient clinics ("SOPC") services and other non-emergency services were reduced by about 40% to 60%. Departments that were more severely affected included the Neonatal Intensive Care Units, the Accident & Emergency ("A&E") Departments, Obstetrics Departments and Cardiac Catheter Laboratory services, etc. In particular, certain elective cesarean operations and cancer treatments were deferred, an Emergency Medicine Ward in A&E Department was closed owing to insufficient manpower, while some elective percutaneous coronary intervention procedures in certain hospital clusters were also deferred. Meanwhile, the Government and HA repeatedly urged healthcare staff who were absent from duty to return to work as soon as possible to avoid affecting public hospital services and treatment of patients.

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In consultation with HA, my consolidated reply to Ms Elizabeth QUAT's question is as follows:

Regarding the industrial action initiated by a staff union early this year, HA called on healthcare staff on 2 February to stay on duty and seek consensus through discussion. HA reiterated that such action was not in the interests of patients and would directly affect public hospital services. On the same day, HA convened the Central Command Committee to review the services and manpower situation in various hospital clusters and made corresponding arrangements, including significantly adjusting SOPC and general outpatient clinic ("GOPC") services, as well as reducing elective surgeries and physiotherapy and occupational therapy outpatient services by 50%.

In response to the absence from duty by some healthcare staff during 3 to 7 February this year, HA Head Office and hospital clusters immediately activated the Major Incident Control Centres ("MICC") to closely monitor the operation of public hospitals and to deploy manpower and adjust non-emergency services with regard to service needs, so as to focus resources on tackling the epidemic and maintaining emergency medical services. To meet the healthcare needs of the public as far as possible, HA also arranged drug refill services for follow-up patients of SOPCs and GOPCs who were in stable conditions so as to focus manpower on providing inpatient services and treating patients attending first appointment at SOPCs. As at 31 October this year, HA Head Office has received about 7 000 related views, requests for assistance or complaints. Among them, 27 cases concerned service provision for individual patients. We understand that HA has followed up these cases, and approached the patients concerned or their families to provide them with assistance as appropriate. So far, HA has not received any claim for compensation pursued through the courts.

Furthermore, HA noted that around 7 000 staff members did not report for duty as scheduled on various days in the aforementioned period. In early October this year, HA issued letters to the staff members concerned requesting for their verification of the day(s) of absence as stated in the letter and explanation on their absence from duty. HA is currently processing the replies from individual staff members and will follow up the matter in accordance with legal advice, the Employment Ordinance, relevant employment contracts and human resources regulations in a fair, reasonable, rational and lawful manner.

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The well-being of patients is the top priority of the Government and HA. As a public healthcare service provider, HA has been striving to provide professional and equitable healthcare services for the public, and has reminded its staff to avoid leading to misperception from patients that public hospitals could not adhere to the code of conduct for healthcare professionals, or even affecting public hospital services due to difference in stances or background. In addition, HA staff are required to comply with relevant regulations and codes (including HA's Code of Conduct and human resources regulations) when discharging their duties. It is also necessary for them to observe the dress code in order to project a professional image to patients, service users and the public.

Meanwhile, HA has been maintaining communication with its staff to understand their needs and concerns at work, provide them with necessary support and enhance mutual trust. In respect of service arrangements, HA will continue to utilize the existing contingency response mechanism when necessary, including activating MICC in emergency situation to closely monitor the operation of each hospital cluster, deploy manpower and adjust services in a timely manner with a view to minimizing the impact on patients.

As an employer, HA has put in place established mechanism, human resources regulations and code of conduct to regulate and manage issues in relation to the conduct and discipline of staff. If there is violation of the code of conduct and/or human resources regulations, HA will, in compliance with the Employment Ordinance and the employment contract, take a serious and prudent approach in following up the matter in accordance with the relevant human resources regulations and legal advice, and handle it in a fair and just manner according to the established mechanism.

MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): President, I would like to extend my heartfelt thanks to all the healthcare personnel who are highly dedicated to their duties during the fight against the epidemic. Yet, 7 000 staff members of HA, accounting for almost one-tenth of the HA staff, participated in the five-day strike under such an exceptional circumstance in Hong Kong. This is extremely serious. For them, politics has overridden professionalism and they have disregarded the life and safety of patients. Moreover, they have even not stopped their actions after the strike but continued to display slogans and put on accessories in hospitals. Therefore, many members of the public (including police officers and their family members) still have no trust in the services provided by HA up to the present. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1509

I would like to ask the Secretary, whilst the Government says that HA attaches great importance to the safety of patients, given that the incident has already occurred, has HA conducted a comprehensive review subsequently? Did it arise due to insufficient guidelines, the lack of a punishment mechanism, the lack of deterrent effect, inadequate training, and the failure to apply to the court for an injunction order at that time, all of which were HA's mistakes? What remedial actions will be taken next to ensure that such incidents will not happen again?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, the situation that I have mentioned just now certainly does not live up to public expectation, nor is it in the public interest. That said, apart from handling the complaints received up with the patients and their family members on individual cases, HA also issued in early October letters to relevant staff members who were absent from duty to find out the dates of and reasons for their absence. HA is currently compiling the replies from individual staff members and will handle the matter in accordance with legal advice, the Employment Ordinance, relevant employment contracts and human resources regulations, etc. in a fair and impartial manner.

HA understands that the behaviour of its staff members should be responsible to society, and according to my understanding, HA has issued letters to its staff. As a long-standing practice, HA will conduct thorough investigation and handle complaints received, and it will also issue letters to its staff members, reminding them of the importance of protecting and safeguarding the reputation, professional image as well as conduct and integrity of HA and themselves. Staff members must comply with HA's regulations and codes and the overall human resources policy when discharging their duties.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Elizabeth QUAT, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered whether there is any deterrent punishment mechanism to prevent the recurrence of such incidents.

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, as an employer, HA has an established mechanism to handle violation of codes by its staff members. They will certainly handle it seriously.

DR PIERRE CHAN (in Cantonese): President, I did not participate in the strike, nor am I a member of the staff union, because I cannot join the union as I am merely a half-time doctor after serving as a Member of the Legislative Council. Despite that, I have noticed that a strike is an issue between the employer and its employees. I have this follow-up question for the Secretary: For how many times has HA contacted the Labour Department ("LD") with regard to the strike, the matters discussed, and how will they deal with the issues that we are currently discussing?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, the absence from duty that we are now discussing is of course an issue between the employer and its employees. Yet, I do not have at hand the information on whether HA has contacted LD, the number of such contacts and the matters discussed. I will consult HA and provide written supplementary information if relevant information is available.

MRS REGINA IP (in Cantonese): President, Secretary Prof CHAN indicated a moment ago that HA has received 7 000 related views, requests for assistance or complaints. Among them, 27 cases concerned service provision for patients being affected. I believe that all these cases were referred by me. I have told Secretary Prof CHAN that these patients are very nice and tolerant. Except for two patients, the other patients did not make any complaint after HA had made arrangement to provide services for them as expeditiously as possible. The two patients who have made a complaint were initially scheduled to receive a surgery for treatment of retinal detachment on 5 February. Yet, on the day of the surgery, a Dr YEUNG―they told me that this Dr YEUNG did not go on strike―told them that the surgery could not be performed on that day since other healthcare staff had gone on strike. In the end, these two ladies could not receive the surgery on that day. While waiting for the next scheduled LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1511 appointment, one of the ladies has almost lost her eyesight completely. Although HA has made arrangement for them to receive the surgery at a later time, the two ladies were unable to work for a long time and suffered a lot of pain after going through all these.

I would like to ask the Secretary, how will HA compensate these two ladies? They are both low-income workers, and the rescheduling of appointment has rendered them unable to work for months. They have still not yet recovered, and they have already applied for legal aid. Secretary, what do you think HA should do to compensate them? Of course, you cannot reply on behalf of the staff union which organized the strike, but Secretary, how should HA deal with it in your opinion?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, as I have mentioned earlier, the overall situation of absence from duty has of course greatly affected various services of HA, and individual patients would also be affected. As far as I understand it, HA has been following up the cases mentioned by Mrs Regina IP just now. On one hand, HA has resumed the necessary treatment and surgery for them as soon as possible. On the other hand, HA will also understand their needs and the areas in which assistance is necessary. So, HA has been taking follow-up actions.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Regina IP, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MRS REGINA IP (in Cantonese): The Secretary mentioned nothing about how they would be compensated at all.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I will have this issue handled by HA.

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MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I have noticed that the Chief Executive has already commended those people who have contributed in the fight against this epidemic by awarding them medals or certificates of appreciation. Those from the healthcare sector are of course included, and I believe they have indeed made considerable efforts in the fight against the epidemic.

Ms Elizabeth QUAT mentioned in the main question that some HA staff had resorted to political tactics to stage a strike during this major epidemic, which had an adverse impact on the entire healthcare sector. Some staff members who did not participate in the strike back then told me that they had to do all the work for their colleagues who had gone on strike, but they thought that they ought to do so. I wonder whether those staff members who went on strike would feel ashamed?

A short while ago, the Secretary mentioned that those staff members who went on strike were not acting in the public interest, which implies that the Secretary has already defined the nature of the strike. While employees are entitled to go on strike under the Trade Unions Ordinance, this strike is an act against the public interest. The public is certainly dissatisfied with this. First of all, their salaries are paid by public funds, but they participated in the strike, hence they were acting against the public interest. I would like to ask the Secretary, does the Government have any punishment mechanism in place? Just now Ms Elizabeth QUAT asked the Secretary about the punishment mechanism, but the Secretary fails to tell us what punishment mechanism is in place. Secretary, should the laws be amended if there is no legal basis to impose punishment on them?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, as an employer, HA has an established mechanism, as well as human resources regulations and code of conduct to regulate and manage issues in relation to the conduct and discipline of staff. Certainly, if HA discovers there is violation of these codes or human resources regulations by its staff members, HA will, in compliance with the Employment Ordinance and the employment contracts, etc., deal with the matter seriously and prudently, and follow it up in accordance with the relevant human resources regulations and legal advice in a fair and impartial manner.

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, my question for the Secretary is, she said that the strike was against the public interest and affected the public, so we should have laws to regulate it. I now ask the Secretary whether there are no such laws, if so, should the laws be amended? She did not answer me.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, legislation has certainly been enacted in respect of the provision of services by HA. Nevertheless, as an employer, HA has already put in place a mechanism to regulate the conduct or discipline of its employees. They will definitely take follow-up actions if there is violation of the regulations or internal codes of conduct.

MS YUNG HOI-YAN (in Cantonese): President, actually, I am getting more and more angry while listening to all these. HA claims that the protection of public health has always been its top priority, and that patients' health and well-being are of the utmost importance. Notwithstanding this, we have now heard of some cases in which patients' treatment was delayed because some people put forward political demands in hospitals. In fact, I always believe that hospitals should not be used as a venue for expressing political demands. How could they display those slogans in hospitals? This would have a great impact on the psychological state of the patients, making them query whether these healthcare staff would make a choice due to their political stance, such that they would give priority to certain patients and delay the treatment of others? They have such worries, and this is also detrimental to their health. I think HA owes these affected patients an apology. I hope the Secretary or any key officer of HA would apologize to the affected patients and their families, and then proceed to discuss the compensation. In fact, health cannot be bought with money, delayed treatment is delayed, and permanent damage is permanent damage. Therefore, I hope both HA and the Secretary will make an apology. Is the Secretary willing to do so?

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SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I must emphasize that this industrial action has a direct impact on the safety and health of patients. As I have said earlier, they include quite a number of patients in critical conditions. If we take a look at the professional ethics that healthcare personnel ought to uphold, these colleagues serving in HA must give the public confidence in receiving the services provided by the healthcare staff. Therefore, here I would also like to thank those dedicated healthcare staff for their hard work and contribution.

According to our understanding, HA would issue letters to its staff members from time to time to remind them that the attire, image or behaviour of healthcare personnel―this is a point raised by Ms YUNG Hoi-yan just now―should exhibit professionalism. They should avoid causing misunderstanding to patients, service recipients or members of the public, and that they should instil sufficient confidence in them as well.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last oral question.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Since Mr Charles Peter MOK, the Member asking this question, is not present, according to the relevant provisions in the Rules of Procedure, I now call upon Ms Starry LEE to ask this question.

Ms Starry LEE, please raise the question.

"LeaveHomeSafe" mobile application

5. MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, to help combat the Coronavirus Disease 2019 epidemic, the Government launched, on the 16th of this month, a mobile application ("app") named "LeaveHomeSafe" for voluntary download and use by members of the public. Members of the public may use the app to record the venues which they have visited by scanning the QR codes posted at the venues. When it is subsequently found that the venues concerned have been visited at the relevant time by persons confirmed to be infected, those members of the public will receive notifications through the app. Although the Government has indicated that the app only stores the visit records of members of the public in encrypted form in their mobile phones and the records will not be LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1515 divulged, some members of the public are still concerned about the protection of privacy afforded by the app. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the types of information collected and the data encryption standard adopted by the app; the measures in place to ensure that users' personal data will not be stolen during the scanning of the QR codes;

(2) of the measures in place to ensure that the management of the venues concerned will not refuse the entry of those members of the public who do not use the app, so as to avoid members of the public being forced to use the app in effect; and

(3) whether it has engaged an independent third party to assess the information security risk of the app and if its privacy protection is adequate; if so, of the details, and whether the assessment outcome will be made public?

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): President, on 11 November 2020 (i.e. last Wednesday), the Government announced the launching of the "LeaveHomeSafe" exposure notification mobile app. Using technology to combat the epidemic, the app aims to encourage the public to make a habit to record their whereabouts, thereby minimizing the risk of further transmission of the virus and protect Hong Kong together. The "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app is available to the public for free download from this Monday (i.e. 16 November).

Characterized by voluntary participation and recording visits at users' discretion, the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app serves as a digital tool to facilitate the public to record more accurately the date and time of checking into and leaving different venues. The app is simple and easy to use. After downloading the mobile app, users can check into participating venues by scanning the venue's QR code to log their arrival time and clicking the "Leave" button in the app during departure. Relevant records will then be kept in the app inside the user's mobile phone.

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So far, there are currently over 10 000 public and private venues that have participated in the scheme to post the "LeaveHomeSafe" venue QR code. Passengers can also directly use the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app in over 18 000 taxis across the territory to record journeys.

Our replies to the three parts of the question are as follows:

(1) After downloading, the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app can be used immediately without the need for registration of any information. On entering a venue, members of the public can use the app to record the visit themselves by scanning the venue's QR code. The data will be encrypted and stored in the user's own mobile phone, and will not be stored in any government or other systems. Such data will be automatically erased after 31 days. The app will not use the GPS function or other data in the mobile phone. The "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app adopts the AES-256 encryption standard to protect the travel records saved in users' mobile phones.

(2) Over the past few weeks, we have been actively engaging different business sectors to appeal for more venue and business operators to join the scheme and display "LeaveHomeSafe" QR codes at their venues. Under the new normal, we need concerted efforts from various sectors to fight the virus so that people will feel comfortable going out and the economy can regain its momentum. We believe that relevant business operators will encourage and help their customers to use the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app, but whether to use it or not is the choice of venue operators and members of the public.

(3) The "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app has undergone the security risk assessment and audit as well as a privacy impact assessment conducted by independent third parties to ensure its compliance with the Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance.

MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, as a matter of fact, this kind of apps like "LeaveHomeSafe", which keeps records of people's whereabouts, is used in many regions as one of the major measures to trace virus transmission chains. Yet many other regions are much more decisive than Hong Kong. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1517

Apart from requiring the QR code to be displayed in restaurants and places which may draw foot traffic, there are designated workers overseeing that visitors scan the code for the record. Looking back at Hong Kong, just now the Secretary still merely said that public participation is voluntary. As shown by the recently released information, over 10 000 public and private venues have taken the lead in participating in the scheme, and more than 18 000 taxis are using this app. However, the number of participating restaurants or venues is small compared to the total number. President, we have been fighting the epidemic for more than half a year. It is vitally important to trace transmission chains effectively. May I ask whether the Secretary will adjust his mindset and at least require restaurants, shopping malls and places with high visitor flow to install the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app, and people visiting such places to scan the QR code? Otherwise, how can it produce any effect? Perhaps after going on for a few more months, this app is yet to produce any effect.

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): President, currently, we have no plan to make it mandatory for visitors to any location to scan the QR code before entry. The objective of this scheme is to bring convenience and benefits to people, providing them with an additional tool, i.e. the mobile app mentioned by me just now, for keeping visit records. The purpose is to provide people with convenience. During the course of fighting the epidemic, we will certainly adopt different methods. For instance, previously, Secretary Prof Sophia CHAN has introduced compulsory testing to help combat the epidemic. Should there be the need to make anything mandatory, we will certainly do it through legislation. However, this is a tool bringing convenience and benefits to people. It makes it easier for them to keep visit records. People may use different methods to record their own journeys, with a view to fighting the epidemic. Hence, currently, we have no plan to specify that people must scan the QR code before entering certain venues.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Starry LEE, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): The Secretary did not answer me whether he had considered that such an approach would achieve little effect.

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): Actually, the most important point is that this tool can help every member of the public. After using this tool, he will be able to keep his own visit records. If, unfortunately, it is found that a confirmed patient has entered a venue visited by him at the relevant time, he will automatically receive a notification through this tool and thus learn about his own exposure risk. Most importantly, during the process, no matter how many people participate in the scheme, they will benefit. Therefore it is not about numbers. Certainly, here I would like to emphasize that I hope more sectors and members of the public will use it, but I also wish to stress one point. Our original intention and wish in the first place is to help the people of Hong Kong make good use of technology to fight the epidemic. Regardless of the number of participants, this tool will benefit them as long as they participate. For this reason, we are willing to provide such convenience to members of the public. This is a tool bringing convenience and benefits to people. Currently, we have no plan to make it mandatory for people to scan the QR code before entry to certain venues.

MR SHIU KA-FAI (in Cantonese): President, simply put, the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app is just a digital notebook in personal mobile phones to make it easier for people to track the epidemic situation. In fact, every time a confirmed case appeared, there would be worries whether any other people might be infected. Regarding privacy, I know that the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app will not casually disclose information on people's whereabouts to the Government. I wish to thank the Secretary for attending two briefing sessions last Friday. Nearly 70 to 80 business associations have attended and listened to the briefing. They are almost unanimous that the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app can help business operators to fight the epidemic. Now they are working out how to download the QR code and take concerted action. Nevertheless, I concur with the view raised by Ms Starry LEE just now because even if all the business operators have posted the "LeaveHomeSafe" venue QR code, members of the public may not scan the code if they are not required to do so. For example, when we dine at a restaurant represented by Mr Tommy CHEUNG to have a meal, the Government requires customers to have a body temperature check before entry, and if they are reminded to do so by the staff of the restaurant, they will certainly comply. However, if the staff of the restaurant do not remind the customers, sometimes the customers will ignore the rule. Recently, I have LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1519 noticed that some operators have already posted the QR code. I have observed the situation. If no one gave such a reminder, some customers might directly go into the restaurant. Hence, if the Government does not try to enhance publicity or regulation, the effectiveness may be greatly reduced. In respect of publicity, will the Secretary consider afresh requiring members of the public to scan the code?

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): President, actually, here I also wish to thank different sectors. In particular, as mentioned by Mr SHIU Ka-fai just now, many business associations have participated through mutual coordination, giving us great support and enabling the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app to be put forward to each industry more effectively, thus benefiting members of the public. Concerning this app, I would like to stress one more point. I remember that when Mr SHIU Ka-fai and I met with members of the beauty industry last week, they warmly welcomed this app, mainly because it could combat the epidemic with precision. Since the outbreak of the epidemic, we have used different technologies, such as the interactive map, to report to the public which places have been visited by confirmed patients. During the process, we lacked channels to notify people in which period of time such places were visited by confirmed patients. However, after using the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app, we can conduct matching accurately through technology. Simply put, a beauty parlour may receive customers one after another. In the past, when the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app was not available, if this beauty parlour had unfortunately been visited by a confirmed patient, all the customers would worry and keep asking the owner of the beauty parlour to tell them whether they were at risk of infection, but the owner could not do so. Now with the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app, all that is needed is a consensus between members of the sector and the customers on scanning the QR code. If unfortunately the beauty parlour was visited by a confirmed patient, when customers enquire about it, the owner simply needs to ask whether they have received an automatic notification from the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app. If the answer is no, they can rest assured; if the answer is yes, anti-epidemic arrangements will immediately be made for them. For example, we will conduct testing for them to minimize the risk of virus transmission. Hence, I would like to emphasize that this mobile app can combat the epidemic with precision, making it easier for people to protect themselves and minimize the risk of infection. At the same time, people can also protect their families, friends and colleagues through the app, thereby preventing them from being affected.

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SHIU Ka-fai, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR SHIU KA-FAI (in Cantonese): President, I agree with the provision of convenience mentioned by the Secretary just now, but my question was how the Secretary will enhance publicity, and whether members of the public will be required to use this app.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SHIU, you have pointed out the part of your supplementary question which has not been answered. Please sit down. Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): President, we will continue with our publicity efforts. Through the coordination of the sectors, we are liaising or have already liaised with the catering industry, the beauty sector, the wholesale and retail sector, the property management industry, shop operators, etc. Besides, the Government has also set an example by displaying the QR code for public use at more than 6 000 different venues, including indoor games halls and libraries. We will continue with the promotion in the coming days.

Here I report to Members that so far, over 10 000 public and private venues have posted the QR code. Meanwhile, be they mobile phones using Google or IOS (i.e. iPhones), over the past period, this is the most popular mobile app with the greatest number of downloads by Hongkongers. It can fully demonstrate public support in the fight against the epidemic.

Certainly, I need to emphasize that currently, the Government has no plan to make it mandatory for people to scan the QR code before entering certain venues. We wish to achieve the intended effect through public participation of their own accord.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1521

MR CHAN CHUN-YING (in Cantonese): President, as "LeaveHomeSafe" is downloaded and used on a voluntary basis, its role in the prevention and control of the epidemic is already compromised. Moreover, the design of the app, in my opinion, still has room for improvement. Currently, after scanning the QR code and leaving a place, people have to click the "Leave" button before they can scan the code and make records at another place. If the places are in the same building, such as our Legislative Council Complex, it is difficult to request everyone to remember to click the "Leave" button when departing from one conference room before going to another one.

Nevertheless, President, my supplementary question is not about this. Since the Government wishes to encourage people to download and use the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app, it should first ask the Civil Service to take the lead in demonstration and promotion. May I ask whether the Secretary has done so? Does he have in hand the proportion taken up by civil servants in the total number of people who have now downloaded the app?

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): President, we will actively consider the view given by Mr CHAN just now. We will also keep improving the mobile app in the light of the actual operational circumstances, such that anti-epidemic technologies can help members of the public fight the virus together with greater precision.

As a matter of fact, before the formal launch of the mobile app, I had personally introduced it to all the Heads of Departments at the Government's internal Heads of Departments' meeting. Overall, the Government attaches great importance to the mobile app, and with the recommendation of the Heads of Departments, various departments have been asked to put it into use. Consequently, when Members visit different government departments, they will probably notice that we have already applied this mobile app.

However, this is a voluntary scheme. Moreover, we did not record the professions of people who downloaded the mobile app, not to mention whether they work in the Hong Kong Civil Service. Therefore I do not have the relevant figures now.

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DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, what matters most is not the number but the objective. The objective of Hong Kong society should be returning to zero confirmed cases. I have been listening to the Secretary's reply. First of all, the Secretary has clearly indicated that there is no plan to make it mandatory for people to use this app. Secretary Prof Sophia CHAN is also present today. I wonder if it is possible that the Secretary from another Bureau can respond to this question as in the case of the previous question.

Hong Kong society holds the view that it is better to endure short-term pain than prolong the agony. I have been holding my expectation for long. With regard to the installation of such technology as the QR code, we are heading towards one goal. If it can be technically complemented by universal compulsory testing, it will be worthwhile and we can see the goal. However, no matter how the Secretary has replied today, I can only see procrastination and I cannot see any goal. The Government seems to have done one more thing besides mandating the wearing of face masks, but how can I see the goal of returning to zero cases? How can universal compulsory testing be made possible, and how can the Secretary complement this technology to gradually moving towards the goal of the community at large, so that the economy can recover and other places will no longer close their doors to visitors from Hong Kong? President, I hope the Secretary for Innovation and Technology or Secretary Prof Sophia CHAN can reply.

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): President, actually, during the whole course of the fight against the epidemic, the Government has adopted different tools and methods, including the implementation of compulsory measures such as requiring social distancing on certain premises and mandating the wearing of face masks. Now a new law has also been enacted, requiring targeted groups to undergo compulsory testing. All these measures are different corresponding methods adopted by us during the fight against the epidemic. Some are mandatory measures, whereas some are voluntary. I would like to stress that we will adopt different methods in a timely and appropriate manner having regard to the epidemic situation. The goal is to control the epidemic as far as possible so that the people of Hong Kong can resume normal outdoor and economic activities. So we totally agree with what Dr LEUNG said just now. We will strive to use different tools, including LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1523 mandatory measures and voluntary technological measures, to help the people of Hong Kong control the epidemic expeditiously and effectively together. We will actively consider different approaches.

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): The Secretary did not answer my question.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): The Secretary did not answer me whether technological measures will lead to universal compulsory testing. If the Secretary cannot answer that, can Secretary Prof Sophia CHAN reply? Is there a goal for technology?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEUNG, you have pointed out the part of your supplementary question which has not been answered. Please sit down. Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): Since this technology simply helps people record their visit arrangements, universal compulsory testing mentioned by Dr LEUNG just now may not be directly related to this measure. Nevertheless, the two have something in common, as I said just now, and that is, different methods are used to promote the fight against the epidemic and properly control the epidemic together in Hong Kong. Let me emphasize that this technological tool is only a measure bringing convenience and benefits to people. For this reason, this is a technological scheme for voluntary participation. However, if there is any other area which warrants compulsory regulation, we will act accordingly. For instance, in the case of virus testing, the Government has introduced legislation to require targeted groups or persons who need to receive tests as confirmed by doctors to undergo compulsory testing. The relevant legislation has now come into operation. Let me stress again that different measures will adopt different 1524 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 approaches. Some need to be implemented on a mandatory basis, while some seek voluntary participation. In this way, they will be more effective. We will use different methods in a timely and appropriate manner to help the people of Hong Kong fight the epidemic together properly.

MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, Singapore, which has set up a travel bubble with Hong Kong, requires Hong Kong people to install a mobile app called "TraceTogether" before entry, so as to minimize the risk posed to Singapore by arrivals. If the Hong Kong Government requires all visitors to download the "LeaveHomeSafe" mobile app, it will allay people's concern about the risk posed by overseas or Mainland visitors when they come to Hong Kong. This is supposed to be good software. However, if the Government requests visitors to download this app but some venues use it while some do not, how can it put forward this mandatory requirement? For this reason, I think the Government should at least require all the public places and shopping venues to put the QR code in place. Even though, as the Government said, public participation is voluntary, at least visitors, after entering Hong Kong, will know that the code is available at these venues, and they can read the records after scanning it. Can the Government do this? I am not asking all members of the public to participate.

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Cantonese): We will take forward the relevant work progressively. As I have reported to Members earlier, President, over 10 000 venues in Hong Kong have registered to participate in the scheme. We will press ahead with the relevant work in response to the circumstances. Will we finally reach such a stage that due to the volatile epidemic situation, the Government has to consider requiring certain places to display the QR code for use by members of the public? At the present moment, we do not have such a plan, but let me emphasize that we will act in a timely and appropriate manner having regard to the epidemic situation, and implement the relevant work progressively.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Oral questions end here.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1525

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Vetting and approval procedures for development projects

6. MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Chinese): President, in October 2017, the Development Bureau set up a steering group to explore how best to consolidate and rationalize the standards and definitions adopted by different government departments (namely the Planning Department, Lands Department ("LandsD") and Buildings Department ("BD")) in vetting and approving development projects, with a view to streamlining the vetting and approval procedures. Moreover, BD is spearheading the development of a system which will not only allow the industry to submit building plans and relevant applications electronically, but will also enable the authorities concerned to process various plans and applications on that platform, so as to achieve the adoption of new technologies in processing development applications thereby substantially streamlining the vetting and approval procedures. BD has planned to accept electronic submission of plans and applications in phases starting from 2021-2022. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the respective numbers of measures for streamlining the vetting and approval arrangements which have been (i) promulgated and (ii) implemented since the steering group was set up; the details of the measures and the estimated vetting and approval time saved by each measure; the future work plans of the steering group;

(2) whether the steering group has studied the establishment of a single window or the designation of a single government department to take up the coordination of all vetting and approval procedures for development projects (including rezoning of land, lease modification as well as vetting and approval of building plans), so as to expedite the entire application process for housing developments; if not, whether the authorities will commence such a study;

(3) whether the aforesaid system for electronic submission of building plans and relevant applications will be commissioned as scheduled in 2021-2022; if not, of the reasons for that; and

1526 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

(4) of the number of land premium ("premium") assessments for residential development projects completed by LandsD in the past three financial years, and in respect of each project, set out in a table (i) the original use of the land, (ii) the site area, (iii) the date on which the application for premium assessment was first received, (iv) the date on which an agreement was reached on the premium amount, and (v) the number of residential units provided/to be provided under the project; as the authorities indicated in April this year that the steering group would formulate streamlining measures on the charging of premium, of the progress of such work and the estimated number of days that may be saved in the premium negotiation process through such measures?

SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, my reply to the various parts of Mr CHAN Hak-kan's question is as follows:

(1) A Steering Group on Streamlining Development Control ("Steering Group") set up under the Planning and Lands Branch ("PLB") of the Development Bureau in October 2017 has continued its effort to explore how best to rationalize the approval process and arrangement adopted by the Buildings Department ("BD"), Lands Department ("LandsD") and Planning Department under PLB without prejudicing the relevant statutory procedures and technical requirements. At the same time, a joint sub-committee ("Joint Sub-committee") under the Land and Development Advisory Committee with representatives from 10 related professional institutes and organizations(1) has been set up to consider the Steering Group's proposals and offer views such that the proposals can meet the need of the industry.

(1) The 10 related professional institutes and organizations are the Hong Kong Institute of Architects, Hong Kong Institution of Engineers, Hong Kong Institute of Urban Design, Hong Kong Institute of Landscape Architects, Hong Kong Institute of Surveyors, Hong Kong Institute of Planners, Association of Landscape Architects Consultants, Real Estate Developers Association of Hong Kong, Association of Architectural Practices Ltd. and Hong Kong Construction Association. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1527

When formulating the streamlining proposals, the Steering Group examines the nature and intention of different development control parameters (for example, building height restriction, site coverage of greenery and gross floor area restriction) with a view to designating a single department responsible for determining the control standards and checking if a development projects comply with the relevant standards. The Steering Group also seeks to minimize overlapping in departments' approval work, as well as clarify the standards and definitions adopted by departments. The Steering Group will promulgate the streamlined proposals and control requirements through different types of practices note with a view to enhancing the transparency and certainty of departments in the approval process.

Since its establishment, the Steering Group has already promulgated for implementation in 2019 and mid-2020 streamlined measures covering seven topics, including the building height restriction, site coverage on greenery, landscape requirements, building setback and building separation in Sustainable Building Design Guidelines, design, disposition and height clause under lease, and non-building areas through the joint practices notes, departments' practices note and documents. The Steering Group is consulting the Joint Sub-committee on three other topics, namely, the calculation and concession of gross floor area, definition of site coverage and whether premium needs to be charged in various situations where LandsD is approached for granting approval/consent under lease. The Steering Group will also review topics including exploring the use of self-certification by the industry in more areas relating to the private development projects approval process.

The streamlined control measures implemented by the Steering Group in recent years can certainly speed up the approval process and are generally welcome by the industry. Nevertheless, owing to the varying location, scale, applicable planning control as well lease restrictions, etc. faced by a development project, it is difficult to quantify at present the time that can be saved in the approval process by every streamlined measure implemented.

1528 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

(2) A development project starting from land use planning, setting of lease terms, building design to regulation of building completion involve different statutory framework and multiple professional areas, hence, simply assigning one single department to take up the entire approval procedures is unrealistic and may not save time. Nevertheless, the Development Bureau shall consider rooms to strengthen the overall planning and coordination of the approval process among departments.

(3) BD is spearheading the development of the Electronic Submission Hub ("ESH") as a digital centralized portal for receiving and processing building plans and applications under the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123). ESH will bring various benefits, including improving coordination among relevant government departments and/or organizations involved in the approval process,(2) enhancing communication with applicants, and encouraging greater and fuller use of the Building Information Modelling technology and facilitating departments to introduce computer programmes to streamline the approval process.

The contract for setting up ESH was awarded in May 2020. BD targets to launch the first phase of ESH in the first quarter of 2022 and shall continue to maintain close liaison with relevant government departments, organizations and the building industry.

(4) Based on information provided by LandsD, a list of private residential development projects that were subject to land exchange/lease modification (excluding small house constructed in accordance with the New Territories Small House Policy) and executed in the past three financial years (from 1 April 2017 to 31 March 2020) is at Annex. LandsD does not have ready information on the time required for premium negotiation for every case.

(2) When processing submissions, BD may consult relevant government departments and organizations, depending on the uses of the building development and nature of submission. Currently, there are up to 29 government departments (such as Fire Services Department, Planning Department and Water Supplies Department) and seven organizations (such as Hospital Authority and the MTR Corporation Limited) participated in this centralized processing system. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1529

The time required to process land exchange/lease modification applications varies depending on the complexity of the case and other factors. Such factors include whether the applicant has changed its proposed plan during the application period; whether title checking of the lot is required; the process and time needed to handle and respond to local objections and comments from government departments; the time needed to complete relevant statutory procedures (for example, statutory procedures required for proposed road works under the Roads (Works, Use and Compensation) Ordinance (Cap. 370)); and the time needed to negotiate and agree on a premium with the applicant.

As stated in part (1) of the reply, the Steering Group has already proposed and is consulting the Joint Sub-committee on some streamlined proposals as to whether premium needs to be charged in various situations where LandsD is approached for granting approval/consent under lease.

Annex

Private development projects involving residential use subject to land exchange/lease modification executed in 2017-2018

Date of Execution valid date of land Site area application Estimated Location Original Item document (hectares) for land flat [Lot number] user(1) [Type of (about) exchange/ number(2) transaction] lease modification 1 18 April 2017 Area 85, Tseung Kwan Industrial/ 0.9635 April 2012 1 518 [Land O, Sai Kung godown exchange] [TKOTL 121] 2 15 May 2017 Siu Hong, Area 54, Agricultural 4.2856 August 2013 4 540 [Land Tuen Mun exchange] [TMTL 483] 3 29 May 2017 Hung Shui Kiu, Yuen Agricultural 1.0240 June 2015 176 [Land Long exchange] [Lot 4328 in DD 124] 1530 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Date of Execution valid date of land Site area application Estimated Location Original Item document (hectares) for land flat [Lot number] user(1) [Type of (about) exchange/ number(2) transaction] lease modification 4 31 May 2017 301, 301A-C Prince House 0.0749 December 79 [Lease Edward Road West, 2014 modification] Kowloon City [KIL 2320] 5 1 June 2017 195 Prince Edward Road House 0.0843 May 2012 34 [Lease West, Kowloon City modification] [KIL 2341 S.E] 6 6 June 2017 Junction of Peel Street Virtually 0.0893 December 116 [Land and Gage Street, Central unrestricted 2013 exchange] [IL 9064] 7 12 June 2017 Wong Chuk Hang Railway 6.8581 August 2016 800 [Land Station, Heung Yip related exchange] Road [AIL 467] 8 21 July 2017 30A San Shek Wan, Residential 0.1940 March 2012 3 [Lease Lantau Island modification] [Lot 687 in DD 329] 9 16 August 13 and 15 Sze Shan Industrial/ 0.3816 June 2010 332 2017 Street, Yau Tong godown [Land [YTIL 41] exchange] 10 31 August Shap Pat Heung Road, Agricultural 0.2251 April 2015 266 2017 Yuen Long [Land [Lot 4056 in DD 120] exchange] 11 4 September Fo Tan, Sha Tin Industrial/ 2.0038 September 914 2017 [STTL 576] godown and 2013 [Land workers' exchange] quarters 12 8 September Sai Sha, Shap Sze Building 62.3232 June 2008 4 776 2017 Heung, Tai Po and [Land [TPTL 157] agricultural exchange] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1531

Date of Execution valid date of land Site area application Estimated Location Original Item document (hectares) for land flat [Lot number] user(1) [Type of (about) exchange/ number(2) transaction] lease modification 13 16 October Ha Yeung, Clear Water Agricultural 0.3750 May 2009 5 2017 Bay, Sai Kung [Land [Lot 264 in DD 233] exchange] 14 31 October Tong Yan San Tsuen, Agricultural 0.1020 October 15 2017 Yuen Long 2013 [Land [Lot 2168 in DD 121] exchange] 15 9 November Chau Tsai, Pak A Building 0.0113 December 1 2017 Village, Sai Kung and 2006 [Land [Lot 339 in DD 362] agricultural exchange] 16 19 December Areas 24 and 25, Kwu Residential 0.5250 July 2015 810 2017 Tung, Sheung Shui [Land [FSSTL 263] exchange] 17 22 December Ping Shan, Yuen Long Agricultural 0.3506 July 2015 18 2017 [Lot 2128 in DD 121] [Land exchange] 18 27 December Ma Sik Road, Area 18, Building 1.6187 July 2015 1 583 2017 Fanling and [Land [FSSTL 262] agricultural exchange] 19 23 January Wong Chuk Hang Railway 6.8581 August 2017 600 2018 Station (Site B), Heung related [Lease Yip Road modification] [AIL 467] 20 6 March 2018 139, 141, 143, 145 and Residential 0.5755 September 172 [Lease 147 Argyle Street, and office 2013 modification] Kowloon City [KIL 6005, KIL 6035 R.P., KIL 6036 R.P., KIL 6037 R.P. and KIL 6038 R.P.] 1532 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Date of Execution valid date of land Site area application Estimated Location Original Item document (hectares) for land flat [Lot number] user(1) [Type of (about) exchange/ number(2) transaction] lease modification 21 29 March 48A and 50 La Salle Residential 0.0883 July 2013 3 2018 Road, Kowloon Tong [Lease [NKIL 3851 S.D & S.E] modification]

Private development projects involving residential use subject to land exchange/lease modification executed in 2018-2019

Date of Execution valid date of land Site area application Estimated Location Original Item document (hectares) for land flat [Lot number] user(1) [Type of (about) exchange/ number(2) transaction] lease modification 1 3 April 2018 Wai Yi Street, Tai Po Building 0.0217 March 2015 11 [Land [TPTL 233] exchange] 2 16 April 2018 Man Sau Sun Tsuen, Sai Agricultural 0.0486 May 2009 1 [Land Kung exchange] [Lot 1179 in DD 215] 3 8 August Yau Tong, Kowloon Railway 0.4030 November 500 2018 [NKIL 6602] related 2016 [Land exchange] 4 29 August Mo Tat, Lamma Island Residential 0.4552 July 2009 10 2018 [Lot 524 in DD 7 and garden [Land Lamma Island] exchange] 5 21 September 233 and 235 Prince House 0.1340 July 2013 51 2018 Edward Road West, [Land Kowloon City exchange] [KIL 11230] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1533

Date of Execution valid date of land Site area application Estimated Location Original Item document (hectares) for land flat [Lot number] user(1) [Type of (about) exchange/ number(2) transaction] lease modification 6 28 September Wong Chuk Hang Railway 6.8581 February 1 200 2018 Station (Site C), Heung related 2018 [Lease Yip Road modification] [AIL 467] 7 22 October 14-20 Inverness Road, House 0.1440 August 2015 60 2018 Kowloon City [Land [NKIL 6573] exchange] 8 24 October Kwu Tung South, Building 3.7560 January 90 2018 Sheung Shui and 2006 [Land [Lot 2579 in DD 92] agricultural exchange] 9 5 December Castle Peak Road―So Agricultural 2.4800 July 2002 573 2018 Kwun Wat, Siu Sau, [Land Tuen Mun exchange] [TMTL 463] 10 17 December Ho Man Tin Station Railway 3.6204 June 2016 1 000 2018 (Site B) related [Land [KIL 11264] exchange] 11 4 January 1 Wang Tak Street, Residential 0.0540 December 159 2019 Happy Valley (including 2015 [Land [IL 9045] hotel) exchange] 12 30 January 10-12A La Salle Road, House 0.0839 November 73 2019 168-168C Boundary 2016 [Lease Street, Kowloon Tong modification] [KIL 3275 and KIL 3276] 13 4 February 16 Bowen Road, Wan House 0.1435 October 2 2019 Chai 2016 [Lease [IL 2304 and the modification] extension] 1534 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Private development projects involving residential use subject to land exchange/lease modification executed in 2019-2020

Date of Execution valid date of land Site area application Estimated Location Original Item document (hectares) for land flat [Lot number] user(1) [Type of (about) exchange/ number(2) transaction] lease modification 1 21 May 2019 Shek Wu Wai, San Tin, Agricultural 11.2993 February 300 [Land Yuen Long 2009 exchange] [Lot 2091 in DD 105] 2 19 June 2019 Tung Yuen Street and Industrial/ 0.7773 November 536 [Land Shung Yiu Street, Yau godown 2016 exchange] Tong [YTIL 45] 3 30 July 2019 13-23 Wang Wo Tsai Industrial/ 0.3114 July 2017 327 [Lease Street, Tsuen Wan godown modification] [TWTL 160] 4 26 November Nam Pin Wai, Sai Kung Agricultural 1.3866 January 92 2019 [Lot 2189 in DD 244] 2007 [Land exchange] 5 17 December Wong Chuk Hang Railway 6.8581 February 800 2019 Station (Site D), Heung related 2019 [Lease Yip Road modification] [AIL 467]

Notes:

(1) The users quoted are general descriptions of the uses permissible under lease, but they do not fully reflect the detailed user conditions of the lot in question as prescribed in the relevant leases.

(2) The actual flat number depends on the final design of the proposed development project.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1535

The proposed East Kowloon Line

7. MR WILSON OR (in Chinese): President, in the Railway Development Strategy 2014, the Government put forward the implementation of seven new railway projects and, for the East Kowloon Line ("EKL") among such projects, initially proposed an implementation timetable of 2019 to 2025. In July this year, the Secretary for Transport and Housing revealed that upon conducting a preliminary study, the MTR Corporation Limited ("MTRCL") had found that the topography along the alignment of EKL was too steep for trains to run through, and that MTRCL was exploring whether there were new technologies to overcome such problem. As a result, an implementation timetable for EKL was not available. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) as it has been reported that the Government already learnt about the problem of steep topography along the proposed alignment of EKL in as early as 2014, and that upon conducting a study, the consultancy firm considered at the time that such problem could be overcome technically, of the reasons why the authorities are currently still exploring ways to overcome such problem; apart from such problem, what other difficulties the authorities have encountered in the planning work of EKL;

(2) of the latest progress of the planning work of EKL; whether it knows how much longer it will take for MTRCL to explore new technologies to overcome the topographic problem; whether the alignment of EKL will be modified so that EKL can be implemented in time before 2025; and

(3) given the frequent occurrence of traffic congestion on a number of roads in East Kowloon at present, the unavailability of an implementation timetable for EKL, and the continuous growth of the population of East Kowloon in the coming decade, of the authorities' plans to prevent the transport in East Kowloon from being paralysed?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, regarding the East Kowloon Line ("EKL") project proposed under the Railway Development Strategy 2014 ("RDS-2014"), the Transport and Housing Bureau 1536 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

("THB"), the Highways Department ("HyD") and other relevant bureaux/departments offered comments on the proposal submitted by the MTR Corporation Limited ("MTRCL") and requested MTRCL to improve the technical design as given in the proposal. MTRCL is considering Government's comments and is exploring feasible options to improve the design of the project.

After consulting HyD and Transport Department ("TD"), our reply to the various parts of Mr Wilson OR's question is as follows:

(1) Railway projects involve huge capital investment and the Government has to plan in a prudent manner. As pointed out in the RDS-2014, the indicative implementation window is for planning purpose only. The actual implementation details are contingent upon the engineering and financial studies in the detailed planning stage. Given that the railway line will be built in hilly terrains and constrained by the climbing capability, some sections of EKL have to be built deep underground. We anticipated then that the works would have considerable technical difficulties, mainly in overcoming technicalities arising from the hilly topography. But the actual level of difficulty can only be ascertained upon further assessment. Notwithstanding this, we have requested MTRCL to further assess the nearby environment and other factors, and to improve the technical design given in the proposal. We have also urged MTRCL to explore the feasibility of expediting the project.

(2) The Government has offered comments on the proposal submitted by MTRCL and asked MTRCL to further improve the design in order to tackle the technicalities of the EKL project. The relevant study is still under way. The Government will closely monitor the progress to ensure that the proposal is practically feasible and can bring maximum benefits to the community. In line with established procedures, prior to the finalization of any new railway scheme, the Government will consult the public, including the Legislative Council and the relevant District Councils on the details of the scheme.

(3) The Government has been closely monitoring the road network and traffic conditions of Kowloon East, and will review the changes in the medium to long-term traffic demand for the major roads in the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1537 region in a timely manner, with a view to considering the implementation of new road infrastructure projects or road improvement works.

The Government has formulated a number of measures to cope with the transport demand of Kowloon East. For instance, taking the opportunity of the massive redevelopment of Kwun Tong Town Centre by the Urban Renewal Authority, there are a number of traffic improvement measures to be implemented in phases, such as the upcoming construction of an exclusive left-turn lane from Hip Wo Street southbound to Kwun Tong Road eastbound at the Hoi Yuen Road/Kwun Tong Road roundabout to further improve the traffic in Kowloon East.

In addition, the Government takes the opportunity of developing the two Action Areas in Kowloon East, i.e. Kwun Tong Action Area ("KTAA") and Kowloon Bay Action Area ("KBAA"), to further improve the traffic conditions of Kowloon East, which will include building a new road extending from Kei Yip Lane in KTAA to divert traffic from the Wai Yip Street/Hoi Yuen Road roundabout and converting the roundabout into a signal-controlled junction to rationalize traffic flows. As for KBAA, the Government is studying the widening of Sheung Yee Road and the improvement to the Hoi Bun Road/Cheung Yip Street junction to increase the traffic capacity. In addition, the two feasibility studies on improving the pedestrian environment in the Kwun Tong Business Area and the Kowloon Bay Business Area included formulation of 22 traffic improvement schemes, of which 16 have been completed, such as provision of kerbside loading and unloading bays as well as enhancement of road junction layouts, which are conducive to improving road usage and junction capacity. The Government is striving to complete the remaining improvement works as soon as possible.

On inter-district roads, the Government is taking forward the Route 6 projects to provide an east-west express link between Tseung Kwan O and West Kowloon. The Route 6 projects comprise the Tseung Kwan O―Lam Tin Tunnel, the Central Kowloon Route, and the 1538 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Trunk Road T2 and the Cha Kwo Ling Tunnel. Expected to be fully open to traffic by 2026, the projects will relieve the traffic burden on the existing major road links in Kowloon East.

On public transport service arrangements, TD will make adjustments in due course, having regard to local development, completion of transport facilities, and public transport services in the district, to meet the travel needs of the public. When making these arrangements, TD will take into account such relevant factors as traffic assessment reports, proposals of public transport operators, traffic conditions of roads nearby, and views from the local community, etc.

Related matters of seasonal influenza vaccination

8. PROF JOSEPH LEE (in Chinese): President, amid the haze of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 ("COVID-19") epidemic, quite a number of members of the public are worried about the serious conditions arising from dual infections with influenza and COVID-19. They have therefore received influenza vaccination earlier than last year, resulting in a tight supply of influenza vaccines. Earlier on, the Department of Health ("DH") indicated that it had procured a total of 878 000 doses of influenza vaccine for the 2020-2021 vaccination programmes, including 628 000 doses for the Government Vaccination Programme ("GVP") and 250 000 doses for the Seasonal Influenza Vaccination School Outreach (Free of Charge - Primary School) ("SIV"). Besides, DH would provide free vaccination to the eligible people of high-risk groups in phases. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the respective quantities of vaccines procured in each of the past three years under (i) GVP and (ii) SIV and the respective expenditures involved;

(2) of the number of persons who received influenza vaccination under the Vaccination Subsidy Scheme ("VSS") in each of the past three years and the amount of expenditure involved, with a breakdown by target group (i.e. (i) children between 6 months and under 6 years old, (ii) children aged between 6 and under 12, (iii) persons aged between 50 and 64, (iv) persons aged 65 or above, and (v) others);

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1539

(3) whether it knows the number of persons who received, other than under VSS, in the past three years influenza vaccination at private (i) hospitals and (ii) clinics (with a breakdown by the groups mentioned in (2));

(4) given that members of the public have a strong demand for influenza vaccination and some private doctors have indicated that they fail to obtain sufficient quantity of vaccines, whether the authorities will regularly review the supply of vaccines to Hong Kong, the demands of the public and private healthcare systems for vaccines as well as the vaccine stock of the Government and, when necessary, procure additional doses of vaccines and carry out coordination work, including providing the private medical sector with additional vaccines again on the condition that private doctors undertake to abide by specified requirements (which include not charging additional fees and giving high-risk persons priority to receive vaccination); if so, of the details and the resources involved; if not, the reasons for that; and

(5) given that there have been recent cases in South Korea and Taiwan in which some residents had adverse reactions or even died soon after receiving influenza vaccination, and that it is learnt that one of the pharmaceutical companies involved is a major vaccine supplier in Hong Kong, whether the authorities have formulated measures to tackle the occurrence of similar cases in Hong Kong; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, influenza can cause serious illnesses in high-risk individuals and even healthy persons. Given that influenza vaccines are safe and effective, all persons aged six months or above except those with known contraindications are recommended to receive influenza vaccines to safeguard their health. In consultation with Department of Health ("DH"), our reply to various parts of Prof Joseph LEE's question is as follows:

(1) and (2)

The number of persons from the eligible groups receiving seasonal influenza vaccination ("SIV") under various government vaccination programmes and the amount of subsidies involved in the past three 1540 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

years are detailed in Annex. Since some members from the eligible groups might have received SIV by arrangement other than government vaccination programmes, the figures related to these persons are not reflected in Annex. In addition, other expenditure such as manpower, publicity and other administrative expenses are also involved in the implementation of the above programmes. Resources for the above activities are absorbed by DH's overall provision for disease prevention which is not separately accounted for.

The quantities of influenza vaccines under various government vaccination programmes procured by DH in the past three years and the contract amount are set out below:

Quantities of Amount Season influenza vaccines ($ million) procured (doses) 2018-2019 (Actual) 654 000 30.1 2019-2020 (Actual) 815 000* 40.8* 2020-2021 (Estimate) 878 000 83.0

Note:

* Including a total of 1 700 nasal influenza vaccine doses actually procured in 2019-2020 season, involving an expenditure of $340,000.

(3) DH does not maintain information about number of persons who have received seasonal influenza vaccines in private hospitals and/or clinics outside the Vaccination Subsidy Scheme ("VSS").

(4) The Government keeps closely in view of the supply of influenza vaccines for vaccination programmes and private healthcare sector and maintains close liaison with vaccine suppliers in order to make adjustments to the relevant arrangements when necessary. In view of the keen demand for seasonal influenza vaccines by members of the public recently and its tight supply around the world, the Government announced on 22 October that it would procure additional vaccines, as well as provide an additional 100 000 doses of vaccines in phases to Public-Private-Partnership Team which provides vaccination for schoolchildren and doctors enrolled in VSS LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1541

which require the vaccines. This facilitates high risk groups to receive vaccination early and helps relieve the tight supply in the private healthcare sectors.

DH has earlier contacted more than 1 600 doctors who have enrolled in the "2020-2021 SIV School Outreach (Free of Charge)" and VSS on their demand for seasonal influenza vaccines and informed them of the relevant arrangements. Separately, the Home Affairs Department will allocate additional inactivated influenza vaccine and live attenuated influenza vaccine to non-governmental organizations and the district organizations partnering with healthcare facilities/doctors/clinics enrolled in VSS across the 18 districts to provide influenza vaccination for the public. The allocation exercise is currently under way and is expected to be completed in December 2020.

Regarding the supply of vaccines in the local private healthcare sector, DH has been closely in touch with the vaccine suppliers and noted the arrival of a new batch of influenza vaccines of around 85 000 doses in mid to late November 2020 for supply to local private healthcare sector. The Government will continue to closely liaise with the vaccine suppliers and make further adjustments when necessary.

(5) In relation to the earlier reports from certain overseas places of adverse reactions and deaths following influenza vaccination, DH has liaised with the World Health Organization ("WHO"), the health authorities concerned at relevant places and the vaccine supplier, and noted that relevant health authorities considered that there was no evidence on safety concerns of relevant influenza vaccines. Health authorities at Korea and Taiwan had also announced investigation results of relevant incidents. DH also confirmed with the vaccine supplier that the influenza vaccine supplied to Hong Kong was of a different batch.

In fact, any products (including vaccines for human use) fall within the definition of "pharmaceutical product" under the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance (Cap. 138) ("the Ordinance") must satisfy the 1542 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

criteria of safety, efficacy and quality for registration with the Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong before they could be sold or distributed in Hong Kong.

For manufacturers of pharmaceutical products, the most important and effective way to ensuring the quality and safety of their products is to strictly comply with the Good Manufacturing Practices ("GMP") for medicines. Manufacturers of locally manufactured and imported pharmaceutical products have to comply with the requirements of GMP under the Pharmaceutical Inspection Co-operation Scheme ("PIC/S").

The Ordinance also stipulates that only licensed manufacturers or wholesale dealers could carry on business as an importer/exporter of pharmaceutical products. Licensed manufacturer could only import pharmaceutical products for its own manufacturing or export its own manufactured products. Import and export of pharmaceutical products are subjected to the control under the Import and Export Ordinance (Cap. 60). Licensed wholesale dealers are required to apply for Import/Export licence for each import/export shipment of pharmaceutical products (including vaccines) from DH.

With regard to the quality assurance of vaccines, according to the WHO guidelines on regulatory preparedness for provision of marketing authorization of human pandemic influenza vaccines in non-vaccine- producing countries, the procured vaccines should be produced in compliance with GMP, tested for quality and safety by the vaccine manufacturer, and went through the procedures for quality control testing and released by the responsible national control laboratory in accordance with "WHO's guidelines for independent lot release of vaccines by regulatory authorities".

DH normally does not conduct sampling checks on pharmaceutical products (include vaccines) at the time of import to avoid delaying their import to and supply in the local market. On the other hand, DH has put in place a regular market surveillance mechanism to collect samples of both locally manufactured and imported pharmaceutical products (including vaccines) from suppliers and the market for analysis. The sampling strategy is based on the risk LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1543

assessment with the information collected from overseas drug regulatory authorities, rapid alert mechanism of PIC/S, complaint or enquiries made by local suppliers or healthcare professionals.

In addition, the Drug Office ("DO") of DH has adverse drug reaction ("ADR") reporting system to collect ADRs (including Adverse Event Following Immunization) reported from the pharmaceutical trade and healthcare professionals, and conducts assessment on the causality between the drug and the adverse event. DO will assist in the formulation of the necessary risk assessment strategy which include issuing safety alert through press releases, advising healthcare professionals on the safety information, instructing the pharmaceutical trade to conduct drug recall, deregistrating pharmaceutical products, etc., in order to keep the safety of drugs under review.

Annex

The number of persons from eligible groups receiving influenza vaccines under various government vaccination programmes and amount of subsidies involved

2020-2021 Season 2018-2019 Season 2019-2020 Season (as at 8.11.2020) Target Vaccination groups programmes Number Amount of Number Amount of Number Amount of of SIV subsidy of SIV subsidy of SIV subsidy recipients* ($ million) recipients* ($ million) recipients* ($ million) Elderly Government 388 300 Not 444 300 Not 153 300 Not aged 65 Vaccination applicable applicable applicable or above Programme ("GVP") VSS 166 700 35.0 166 300 34.9 145 700 35.0 Persons GVP 7 100 Not 7 500 Not 2 900 Not aged applicable applicable applicable between VSS 149 700 31.4 187 000 39.3 141 900 34.1 50 and 64 1544 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

2020-2021 Season 2018-2019 Season 2019-2020 Season (as at 8.11.2020) Target Vaccination groups programmes Number Amount of Number Amount of Number Amount of of SIV subsidy of SIV subsidy of SIV subsidy recipients* ($ million) recipients* ($ million) recipients* ($ million) Children GVP 1 000 Not 400 Not 130 Not aged applicable applicable applicable between VSS 206 900 58.5 122 300 30.8 58 500 14.1 6 months SIV School 100 300 7.0 278 000 51.3 109 300 18.2 and Outreach under 12 (Free of Charge) Others^ GVP/VSS 102 200 1.6 112 700 1.8 58 270 0.9 Total 1 122 200 133.5 1 318 500 158.1 670 000 102.3

Notes:

^ Others include healthcare workers; poultry workers; pig farmers or pig-slaughtering industry personnel; persons with intellectual disabilities; Disability Allowance recipients; and pregnant women, etc.

* The above figures are rounded to the nearest hundred.

Facilitating Hong Kong's integration into the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area

9. IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Chinese): President, on facilitating Hong Kong's integration into the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Greater Bay Area"), will the Government inform this Council:

(1) as the National Development and Reform Commission indicated in July this year that it had agreed to the implementation of a batch of planning proposals concerning intercity rail projects in the Greater Bay Area in an orderly manner, of the Government's plan to conduct discussions with the authorities of Guangdong and Macao on facilitating the linking up of Hong Kong's railway network with the railway networks of the Mainland cities within the Greater Bay Area, as well as strengthening the role of Hong Kong's railway network in the Greater Bay Area;

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1545

(2) whether it will discuss with the authorities of Guangdong and Macao the establishment of a managing authority for cross-boundary transport in the Greater Bay Area to coordinate the development and operation of the cross-boundary transport infrastructure (including airports, ports, railways and bridges) in the Area, thereby creating synergy within the region to enable the development of the Greater Bay Area into a world-class transport and logistics hub; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and

(3) of its plan to discuss with the authorities of Guangdong and Macao the measures to increase the flow of people, goods, capital and information within the Greater Bay Area, including removing the red tape in respect of customs clearance, taxation, flow of personnel and capital, so as to make it more convenient for Hong Kong people to live, work and receive education in the Mainland cities within the Greater Bay Area?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, after consulting the relevant Policy Bureaux, our reply to various parts of Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok's question is as follows:

(1) The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ("HKSAR") Government has been in contact with relevant Mainland authorities in relation to the Development Plan for Intercity Railway Links in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("the Development Plan"). The projects in the Development Plan mainly aims to enhance rail connection among prefectural-level cities within the Guangdong Province and include such short-term projects as Shenzhen-Huizhou Intercity Railway and Guangzhou-Guangzhounan Link, connecting to the Shenzhenbei Station and Guangzhounan Station respectively along the Mainland Section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link ("XRL"). Passengers can conveniently access the above mentioned railways through the Hong Kong Section of XRL and travel to different cities in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("the Greater Bay Area"). The HKSAR Government hopes that the implementation of the Development Plan will further facilitate the public to commute and strengthen the connectivity between Hong Kong and other cities in the Greater Bay Area.

1546 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

With the commissioning of the Hong Kong Section of XRL, which connects to the national high-speed rail network, in September 2018, the travelling time between Hong Kong and other cities in the Greater Bay Area has been greatly shortened. The HKSAR Government and MTR Corporation Limited will explore with the relevant Mainland authorities different measures to enhance XRL service, with a view to strengthening the connectivity between Hong Kong and other cities in the Greater Bay Area.

(2) The Greater Bay Area comprises the two Special Administrative Regions of Hong Kong and Macao, and nine municipalities of Guangdong Province. There are three different jurisdictions with different laws and regulatory regime on traffic and transport matters. The three governments will take forward initiatives within their respective jurisdictions under the principle of "one country, two systems", with a view to improving the overall connectivity among the cities of the Greater Bay Area.

For cross-boundary transport infrastructure projects undertaken in the past, we had set up liaison mechanisms with the relevant Mainland authorities based on the specific circumstances and needs of individual projects. For example, during the implementation of the Hong Kong Section of XRL, various platforms were set up with the Guangdong Provincial People's Government as well as the China Railway Corporation to sort out the construction and operation arrangements of the project. In the case of the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge ("HZMB"), the governments of Guangdong, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and Macao Special Administrative Region have established the "Joint Works Committee of the Three Governments on the HZMB". The HZMB Authority was established pursuant to Mainland laws as a non-profit-making public institution legal person, operating on a self-financing basis, responsible for monitoring the construction, operation, management and maintenance of HZMB. The HZMB Authority reports to the three governments, and regular meetings have been held among the three governments to monitor the operation of HZMB and the HZMB Authority. For any future cross-boundary transport infrastructure projects, relevant liaison LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1547

mechanism, which is proven to be pragmatic and effective, could be established having regard to the circumstances of individual projects to coordinate the work of all parties.

As far as ports are concerned, there has been differentiation in functions and rational division of labour among the major ports in the Greater Bay Area driven by their comparative advantages. For instance, Shenzhen and Nansha ports specialize in handling direct cargo given their proximity to the production base, while Hong Kong Port ("HKP") specializes in transhipment with some 60% of our container throughput being transhipment cargo given our strong international liner shipping network. While container terminals in HKP are run by private operators and the port sector is market-driven, we will continue to encourage more collaboration among ports under the Greater Bay Area framework based on the principle of complementarity.

The Outline Development Plan for the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area defined Hong Kong's role as the international aviation hub. To reinforce the Hong Kong International Airport's leading status as an international aviation hub, we have been exploring various means of cooperation with the Mainland airports and enhancing the complementary interaction among airports within the region. The Airport Authority Hong Kong ("AA") has been an active participant in the Greater Pearl River Delta ("GPRD") A5 Chairmen's Meeting, a forum for the five airports in the region to discuss development needs and concerns, as well as to share experiences and foster collaboration on issues of common interests, and to promote sustainable growth in the air transport sector. AA will continue to explore means to foster closer cooperation with the GPRD airports with a view to capturing the opportunities brought about by the Greater Bay Area development.

(3) The HKSAR Government seeks to facilitate the people of Hong Kong to develop their careers, work and live in the Mainland cities of the Greater Bay Area, as well as to enhance the convenient flow of people, goods, capital, etc. within the region through active participation in the development of the Greater Bay Area. After the two meetings of the Leading Group for the Development of the 1548 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Leading Group") in 2019, the Central Government announced a total of 24 policy measures. They included two tax-related measures, namely the method for calculating "183 days" in relation to the paying of individual income tax on the Mainland (that is, any stay of less than 24 hours on the Mainland will not count as a day of presence), and the provision of tax relief by municipal governments to non-Mainland (including Hong Kong) high-end talents and talents in short supply through the offsetting of the tax differential between the two places; measures facilitating clearance and the cross-boundary flows of people and goods, such as expanding the network of Single E-lock Scheme clearance points in the nine Mainland municipalities in the Greater Bay Area, and embarking on immigration facilitation reform pilots schemes in the Greater Bay Area; as well as measures which will further facilitate the flow of capital within the Greater Bay Area, such as the establishment of a cross-boundary wealth management scheme. The development of the Greater Bay Area can offer crucial support for Hong Kong's economic recovery. The HKSAR Government will proactively pursue the detailed implementation of the 24 measures announced after the Leading Group meetings last year and will continue to seek breakthroughs in various policy areas to strengthen Hong Kong's role in taking forward the development of the Greater Bay Area.

Hong Kong's youth developing career and studying on the Mainland

10. MR KENNETH LAU (in Chinese): President, the Government is currently promoting and supporting Hong Kong's youth in entrepreneurship and employment in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Greater Bay Area"), in accordance with the Outline Development Plan for the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area promulgated in early 2019. On the other hand, there are quite a number of Hong Kong's youth studying on the Mainland at present. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether it knows the respective numbers of Hong Kong's youth aged between 15 and 40 who have now (i) started up businesses and (ii) taken up employment, in other cities in the Greater Bay Area, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1549

and set out in the table below a breakdown by the age group to which they belong and the city in which they live; if such figures are unavailable, whether it will compile the statistics;

Other cities in the Greater Bay Area

Age group Macao Zhuhai Foshan Huizhou Shenzhen Zhaoqing Jiangmen Dongguan Zhongshan Guangzhou 15 to 20 (i) (ii) 21 to 25 (i) (ii) 26 to 30 (i) (ii) 31 to 35 (i) (ii) 36 to 40 (i) (ii) Total (i) (ii)

(2) whether it knows the major categories of occupations and trades in which Hong Kong's youth mentioned in (1) are engaged, and a breakdown of the relevant number of persons; if such figures are unavailable, whether it will compile the statistics;

(3) in respect of (i) the Funding Scheme for Youth Entrepreneurship in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area and (ii) the Funding Scheme for Experiential Programmes at Innovation and Entrepreneurial Bases in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area rolled out in March 2019 under the Youth Development Fund, of the respective numbers of applications (a) received and (b) approved so far;

(4) of the number of applications received under the Mainland University Study Subsidy Scheme in each of the past five years; whether it knows, among the persons who had received such 1550 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

subsidies in the past five years, the respective numbers of those who, upon graduation, (i) returned to Hong Kong for employment and (ii) stayed on the Mainland to pursue career development, as well as the respective major occupations and positions in which they are engaged; and

(5) whether it has formulated further measures to facilitate Hong Kong's youth studying and developing career on the Mainland, as well as help them understand the country and integrate themselves into the country's development; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, having consulted the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau, the Education Bureau ("EDB") and the Labour and Welfare Bureau, our consolidated reply to the question raised by Mr LAU is as follows:

The Government has been exploring ways for Hong Kong young people to take up employment, start businesses and study in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("GBA"). It is one of the most open and economically vibrant regions in the country, offering financial, business and trading services for connecting the world together with advanced industrial production capabilities. With enormous development potential, GBA does not only provide new impetus for Hong Kong's future economic development, but also present key opportunities for post-pandemic recovery of our economy. Hong Kong could synergize with other GBA cities in many areas including finance, innovation and technology, professional services, etc. GBA development will bring about numerous quality job opportunities for Hong Kong young people to ascend their career ladder. We will encourage them to look for development in GBA and seize opportunities therein.

(1) and (2)

The Government does not maintain relevant statistics on Hong Kong young people starting businesses or taking up employment in other GBA cities.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1551

(3) To further assist young entrepreneurs of Hong Kong to explore opportunities brought about by the GBA development, the Government has introduced, under the Youth Development Fund, the Funding Scheme for Youth Entrepreneurship in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area and the Funding Scheme for Experiential Programmes at Innovation and Entrepreneurial Bases in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area, with a view to encouraging Hong Kong young people to make optimal use of the innovative and entrepreneurial ("I&E") bases in GBA and helping them develop their businesses in both Hong Kong and Mainland GBA cities. Well received by various sectors of the community, the two schemes have attracted funding applications from a total of more than 40 non-governmental organizations ("NGOs") in Hong Kong. The assessment has entered its final stage and the application results will be officially announced in due course. It is estimated that a total of about $100 million will be granted by the former scheme for some 10 NGOs to implement youth entrepreneurship projects, under which subsidies will be provided for nearly 200 youth start-ups who intend to start or have already started their businesses in Hong Kong and/or Mainland GBA cities, while start-up support and incubation services will be rendered to about 4 000 young people. As for the latter scheme, it is estimated that about $5 million will be granted for some 10 NGOs to organize short-term experiential programmes at I&E bases in Mainland GBA cities, benefiting nearly 700 young people.

(4) Launched in July 2014, the Mainland University Study Subsidy Scheme ("MUSSS") has expanded its coverage and introduced non-means-tested subsidy in the 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 school years respectively. The number of applications received in the 2016-2017, 2017-2018, 2018-2019, 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 school years were 2 425, 3 453, 3 403, 3 484 and 4 261 respectively. The Government does not maintain statistics on the number of Hong Kong students returning to Hong Kong for employment or staying in the Mainland for further development upon graduation of their studies in the Mainland.

1552 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

(5) The Government has been taking forward the development of GBA proactively. In 2019, the Central Government announced 24 policy measures in the context of the GBA Development, facilitating Hong Kong residents to develop their career, work and reside in Mainland GBA cities, as well as enhancing the convenient flow of people and goods within GBA. Amongst the policy measures, those that are relevant to facilitating the young people of Hong Kong to develop in the Mainland include supporting the open recruitment of Hong Kong and Macao residents by public institutions in GBA; introducing immigration facilitation reform pilot schemes in GBA; and encouraging innovation and entrepreneurship by Hong Kong and Macao young people in the nine Mainland GBA cities. The Government will continue to make use of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao cooperation platform to encourage the young people of Hong Kong to study, work and reside in the Mainland. We will also seek to enhance the understanding of Hong Kong young people in the latest developments and opportunities in the Mainland through internship, exchange and entrepreneurship programmes, publicity efforts, etc. with a view to promoting further exchanges between the young people of the two places.

On employment, the Labour Department ("LD") has since 2015 organized in collaboration with relevant chambers of commerce a total of 12 large-scale thematic job fairs featuring employment and vacancy information in the Mainland to enhance understanding of job seekers (including young people) of Hong Kong on relevant job opportunities and employment conditions in the Mainland (including GBA), and assist them in finding suitable jobs. LD has also set up a dedicated web page about Information on Employment in the Mainland at its website on Interactive Employment Service, providing information on job vacancies in the Mainland advertised by Hong Kong employers, as well as Mainland employment information.

On measures to facilitate academic pursuits, EDB will continue to assist the Ministry of Education in implementing in Hong Kong the Scheme for Admission of Hong Kong Students to Mainland Higher Education Institutions ("Admission Scheme"), under which participating Mainland institutions admit Hong Kong students based LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1553 on their results in the Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education Examination, thereby providing secondary school graduates with multiple study pathways and opportunities to connect with the country's development. EDB will also continue to provide subsidies to Hong Kong secondary school graduates who intend to study in the Mainland through MUSSS.

Moreover, EDB encourages students to participate in Mainland exchange activities. To help them understand the country and strengthen their sense of national identity, EDB has been organizing Mainland exchange programmes or subsidizing those organized by schools with diversified themes to dovetail with the latest development of the school curriculum and the country. Through these programmes, students could gain first-hand experience of the country's development in such aspects as history, culture, economy, education, science and technology, understand opportunities and challenges brought about by the country's development for Hong Kong, and enrich their life-wide learning experience. Mainland exchange programmes, including those visiting the nine Mainland GBA cities and the Macao Special Administrative Region, have been popular among teachers and students. Examples are the Mainland Exchange Programme for Junior Secondary and Upper Primary Students, An Exploration into the Economic Development and Guangdong-Hong Kong Cooperation in Nansha and Qianhai, and An Exploration into the Prospects for Further Studies and Employment in the Mainland and Macao. These programmes enable students to visit entrepreneurial bases for young people in Nansha and Qianhai, innovative enterprises in Shenzhen and universities under the Admission Scheme. With the opening of the Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link ("XRL") and the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge ("HZMB"), An Exploration into the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area Cities was first organized in the 2019-2020 school year to enable students to learn and gain first-hand experience of the planning and development of the GBA cities and the travel convenience via their trips on the Hong Kong Section of XRL and HZMB, so as to reflect on opportunities brought about by the GBA development for Hong Kong. Furthermore, many schools in Hong Kong have, on their own initiative or through EDB's coordination, 1554 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

formed sister schools with their counterparts in various provinces and cities in the Mainland. Most sister schools are located in GBA, amounting to about 900 pairs. They have been organizing mutual visits and multi-faceted exchange activities based on their school-based development needs. Through exchange and contact, Hong Kong students have deepened their understanding of the Mainland in various aspects. For post-secondary students of Hong Kong, EDB provides subsidies through the Mainland Experience Scheme for Post-Secondary Students to assist their participation in short-term internship or study in the Mainland and encourage them to learn through first-hand experience the country's latest social, economic and cultural landscape. Looking forward, EDB will continue to enhance and explore diversified student exchange programmes in alignment with the country's development, as well as broaden the exchange modes to enhance effectiveness.

Outside school, the Home Affairs Bureau ("HAB") subsidizes NGOs through the Funding Scheme for Youth Internship in the Mainland to organize Mainland internship activities for Hong Kong young people, with a view to enabling them to obtain real experience in the actual workplace environment in the Mainland, as well as acquire a deeper understanding of the employment market, work culture and development opportunities therein. In particular, being one of the major cooperation initiatives between Hong Kong and Guangdong, the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area Hong Kong Youth Internship Scheme launched under the funding scheme has been expanded to cover all Mainland GBA cities since last year. Approximately 950 young people have taken up internship placements in GBA under the internship scheme, from which they have gained a deeper understanding of the labour market, workplace culture and career prospects in the Mainland. It has also helped our young people set their career goals ahead, accumulate work experience and build interpersonal networks, thus facilitating their future development in GBA.

In addition to the funding scheme, HAB also collaborates with top-notch scientific research and cultural institutions in the Mainland as well as major corporations in Hong Kong to implement the Thematic Youth Internship Programmes to the Mainland and the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1555

Scheme on Corporate Summer Internship on the Mainland and Overseas respectively, providing unique internship opportunities for Hong Kong young people with different backgrounds, expertise and interests. In 2019, the three above mentioned internship schemes altogether offered Mainland internship opportunities to over 4 000 young people.

The Government will continue to enhance and expand various youth internship and exchange programmes in the Mainland with a view to providing Hong Kong young people deeper, wider and more diversified opportunities to explore GBA as well as other provinces and cities in the Mainland. By experiencing local culture and conducting in-depth exchange with local young people, Hong Kong young people could better understand and seize opportunities for development in GBA, facilitating their integration into the overall advancement of the country.

The wholesale and retail sectors moving towards a new business model

11. MR SHIU KA-FAI (in Chinese): President, there are comments that under the impact of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 epidemic, purchasing goods and services online has become increasingly common, and remote working or service provision has developed into a new trend. Quite a number of wholesalers and retailers have expedited the adoption of an integrated online-to-offline ("O2O") model of doing business. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the number of applications received from wholesale and retail business operators under the Distance Business Programme, which was launched under the Anti-Epidemic Fund, by the time when applications closed on 31 October, and among such applications, the number of those approved; a breakdown by the type of information technology solutions involved; the (i) total, (ii) average, (iii) largest and (iv) smallest amounts of funding granted in respect of the approved applications;

1556 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

(2) of the annual numbers of applications received from wholesale and retail business operators under the Technology Voucher Programme ("TVP") since its launch in November 2016, and among such applications, the number of those approved and the total amount of funding involved;

(3) given that the Government successively launched three rounds of enhancement measures for TVP between February 2018 and April this year, whether it has plans to launch enhancement measures again in the coming year; if so, of the details; if not, whether it will conduct a review expeditiously; and

(4) whether, in light of the wholesale and retail sectors moving towards the integrated O2O business model, it has plans to step up the relevant support for the sectors; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Chinese): President, under the impact of the epidemic, remote work or service mode has become a new trend, leading to the application of technologies in digitizing business processes by different industries, including the wholesale and retail sectors. Through various regular initiatives as well as measures introduced during the epidemic, the Government provides support for the application of technologies in different sectors and industries.

Having consulted the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau, our reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:

(1) The Innovation and Technology Commission ("ITC") launched the Distance Business Programme ("the Programme") under the Anti-epidemic Fund to support enterprises to continue their businesses and provide services during the epidemic through the adoption of information technology ("IT") solutions. The Programme was open for funding application from 18 May to 31 October 2020. A total of 38 572 applications including 7 709 applications from the retail sector have been received. The Secretariat (namely the Hong Kong Productivity Council) does not have statistics of the funding applications from the wholesale sector.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1557

Regarding the 7 709 applications from the retail sector, as at 17 November, a total of 4 137 have been processed, of which 3 745 were approved with a total funding of around $234 million. The average approved funding amount was around $62,500. The highest and lowest approved funding amounts were $202,800 and $1,164 respectively.

Under the Programme, each enterprise can submit no more than two applications, and include in each application three IT solutions with no duplications in the IT solution categories. The IT solution categories involved in the applications from the retail sector are tabulated as follows:

Applications from the retail sector Number IT solution categories involved Number approved received (as at 17 November) 1. Online business 5 365 2 893 2. Online order taking and delivery, 1 138 404 and smart self-service systems 3. Online customer services and 2 952 1 500 engagement 4. Digital customer experience 2 074 801 enhancement 5. Digital payment/mobile point of 1 711 654 sale 6. Online/cloud-based financial 831 431 management systems 7. Online/cloud-based human 486 194 resources management systems 8. Remote document management, 801 501 cloud storage and remote access services 9. Virtual meeting and conference 373 206 tools 10. Virtual team management and 258 139 communications 1558 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Applications from the retail sector Number IT solution categories involved Number approved received (as at 17 November) 11. Cybersecurity solutions 397 171 12. Other online/custom-built/cloud- 1 503 675 based business support systems

(2) and (3)

From November 2016 up to 31 October 2020, 7 554 applications (excluding those which were subsequently withdrawn by the applicants or were unable to be processed due to ineligibility or incomplete documents) were received under the Technology Voucher Programme ("TVP"), including 1 969 applications from the wholesale and retail industry. As at 31 October this year, the TVP Committee has considered 848 applications, 793 of which have been approved. Relevant number of applications and funding amount are tabulated as follows:

Number of Number of Funding Year applications applications amount received approved* ($Million) 2016 1 1 0.03 (from the launch of the TVP on 21 November) 2017 124 118 15.0 2018 179 172 25.5 2019 445 402 66.2 2020 1 220 100 14.9 (as at 31 October) Total 1 969 793 121.6

Note:

* The figures denote the number of applications received in the year and subsequently approved.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1559

Since the launch of TVP in November 2016, ITC has been closely monitoring the implementation of TVP, and has introduced enhancement measures several times. Following the enhancements from February 2018 to April 2020 (including relaxing the eligibility criteria of applicants, regularizing TVP, raising the cumulative funding ceiling, maximum number of approved projects and the government funding ratio, and introducing the arrangement for disbursing partial funding in advance for approved projects), ITC has relaxed, from 1 June 2020, the requirement for TVP projects to obtain approval before commencement. Applicants can start their projects the next day after the submission of the application so as to facilitate early adoption of technological services and solutions. With effect from 14 August 2020, the restriction pertaining to related entities under TVP has also been relaxed. Related entities, i.e. enterprises/organizations having the same individual(s) holding 30% or more ownership in each of the enterprises/organizations, are no longer treated as one single entity for the purpose of calculating the cumulative funding amount of each individual entity under TVP.

ITC will continue to closely monitor the implementation of TVP and introduce further enhancement measures as appropriate.

(4) The Government has always been encouraging all industries and sectors to make more use of technologies. In addition to continuing to support local enterprises and organizations (including the wholesale and retail sectors) in using technological services and solutions through the above mentioned TVP, the Government will also continue to assist the wholesale and retail sectors in improving upgrading productivity, and transforming through various funding schemes. For example, the Trade and Industrial Organization Support Fund under the Trade and Industry Department provides financial support to non-profit-distributing organizations to implement projects which aim at enhancing the competitiveness of Hong Kong enterprises in general or in specific sectors.

Regulation of the sale of drugs

12. MR JEFFREY LAM (in Chinese): President, some members of the trade engaging in the sale of drugs have pointed out that new drugs are constantly being introduced to replace the old ones, and more and more people purchase 1560 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 drugs through the Internet. The fact that the existing legislation regulating the sale of drugs is outdated is not conducive to enhancing the Government's capabilities to respond to emergency public health incidents, and it hinders the channels for selling drugs. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether it has assessed if the existing legislation has struck a balance between ensuring the safety of drugs purchased online and facilitating the sale of drugs;

(2) of the number of complaints about drug safety received by the Government in each of the past three years and, among such cases, the number of those involving drugs purchased online; the follow-up actions taken by the Government;

(3) of the views received by the Government from members of the trade in the past three years regarding the facilitation of the online sale of drugs, as well as the details of the follow-up work;

(4) given that even if members of the trade engaged in the sale of drugs merely distribute sample packs of innovative western medicines or proprietary Chinese medicines free of charge at exhibitions, they still need to apply for the registration of such medicines in Hong Kong, but the procedure concerned is time-consuming, whether the Government will, in this regard, introduce a simple and easy registration procedure and specify the conditions for registration (such as the requirement for the packaging of drugs to carry the descriptions that the drugs are prohibited from being sold in Hong Kong and are restricted to trial uses), so as to facilitate the trade's drug promotion work; and

(5) whether it will conduct a comprehensive review of, and public consultation on, the legislation regulating drugs, with a view to keeping the relevant legislation in pace with the times?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, in Hong Kong, regulation of drugs, including pharmaceutical products (commonly known as "western medicines") and proprietary Chinese medicines ("pCm"), is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1561 essentially governed by the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance (Cap. 138) ("PPO") and the Chinese Medicine Ordinance (Cap. 549) ("CMO"), and implemented through a multi-pronged system with the dual targets of regulating the trade and the drugs to safeguard public health and safe use of drugs while allowing convenience for the sale of drugs.

After consulting the Department of Health, the Government's response to Mr Jeffrey LAM's question is as follows:

(1) and (4)

According to PPO, any products fall within the definition of "pharmaceutical product" must satisfy the criteria of safety, efficacy and quality for registration with the Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong before it could be sold, with or without payment, in Hong Kong. According to PPO, supplying sample of pharmaceutical product without payment also considered as selling. Unregistered pharmaceutical products are not allowed to be supplied to members of the public for use. Apart from the requirement of registration, a pharmaceutical product contains a Part 1 or Part 2 poison listed under the Pharmacy and Poisons Regulations (Cap. 138A), an antibiotic specified under the Antibiotics Ordinance (Cap. 137) or a dangerous drug specified under the Dangerous Drugs Ordinance (Cap. 134) shall be subject to extra sale control.

PPO also regulates that pharmaceutical product containing Part 1 poison could only be sold at the registered premises of an Authorized Seller of Poisons (commonly known as "pharmacy") under the supervision of a registered pharmacist. In addition, antibiotics, dangerous drugs and certain Part 1 poisons that are classified as prescription medicines must be sold at the Authorized Seller of Poisons upon a doctor's prescription. On the other hand, a pharmaceutical product containing Part 2 poison could only be sold at the registered premises of an Authorized Seller of Poisons or Listed Seller of Poisons (commonly known as "medicine store"). Both Authorized seller of Poisons and Listed Seller of Poisons are not allowed to sell or supply pharmaceutical products containing the above mentioned controlled substances via online shop. However, if a registered pharmaceutical product does not contain Part 1 or 1562 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Part 2 poison, antibiotic or dangerous drug, its retail sales are not restricted to the aforementioned controls. This arrangement can ensure safe use of drugs while allowing convenience for the public to buy drugs online.

Regarding to sale of Chinese medicines ("CM"), according to CMO, no person can sell, import or possess a pCm, within the meaning of interpretation, in Hong Kong unless it is registered with the Chinese Medicines Board ("the Board") under the Chinese Medicine Council of Hong Kong (the "Council"). CMO also stipulates that CM traders who wish to carry on a business in the retail of Chinese herbal medicines ("Chm"), wholesale of Chm, wholesale of pCm or manufacture of pCm shall first obtain a licence issued by the Board. In addition, Chm retailers or wholesalers can also apply to the Board for online sale of Chm. Upon approval, online sale of Chm shall only be conducted via the website specified in the licence. Any Chm sold over the Internet shall be supplied from the premises specified in the licence and such premises shall comply with the related licensing requirements for retailer or wholesale licence in Chm.

To ensure drug safety, the import and export of pharmaceutical products and pCm are subject to licensing control under the Import and Export (General) Regulations (Cap. 60A). Importation or exportation of pharmaceutical products and pCm must be covered by an import/export licence issued by the Department of Health, otherwise it would be an offence. Since the ingredients of unregistered pharmaceutical products or pCm are not ascertained, their safety, quality and efficacy cannot be guaranteed. If unregistered pharmaceutical products or pCm are allowed to be imported to Hong Kong for purpose of exhibition and supply, it may pose health risks to potential users. Also, the regulatory authority would not be able to trace the flow of unregistered drug.

(2) The Drug Office of the Department of Health is responsible for receiving and handling complaints related to pharmaceutical products or products suspected to be adulterated with western medicine. Between 2017 and 2019, the numbers of complaints related to medicines and those related to medicines supplied on Internet are tabulated as follows:

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No. of complaints related to No. of complaints related to Year medicines supplied on medicines Internet 2017 585 124 2018 641 116 2019 2 546* 151

Note:

* This included about 1 900 complaints related to human papillomavirus vaccine.

In addition, the Chinese Medicine Regulatory Office of the Department of Health is responsible for receiving and handling complaints related to pCm. Between 2017 and 2019, 56 complaints related to pCm were received, two of which were related to online sale of suspected unregistered pCm.

When the Department of Health receives complaints related to medicines, it would follow up every complaint and conduct investigation. If it is found that the relevant ordinances have been contravened, law enforcement actions would be taken accordingly. If necessary, cases may be referred to relevant law enforcement departments for follow up, or to conduct joint operations with other departments. The Department of Health may, based on risk assessment, make public announcement of certain cases to protect the public health.

(3) In the past three years, the Department of Health has not received any suggestions on online sale of pharmaceutical products. Nevertheless, the Department of Health has been meeting pharmaceutical traders from time to time to receive their views, before making rounds of legislative amendments, seminars were also held and comments from the traders were duly consulted.

Regarding online sale of Chm by CM traders, after meetings between members of the Board and its Chinese Medicines Trader Committee to discuss and collect opinions in 2018, the Board passed the regulatory measure for online sale of Chm by CM traders in May 2018. Licensed retailers and wholesalers in Chm, and CM traders 1564 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

associations had been informed the regulatory measure through various means such as letters to facilitate them to have a better understanding of the regulatory measure. At the same time, the Department of Health also organized regular seminars and briefings on various regulatory frameworks to strengthen the communication with the industry while the Council exchanged views with the industry through dissemination of the latest requirement and regulatory information on the website of the Council and newsletters to CM traders.

(5) To balance between safe use of drugs and their market supply, the Government reviews the drug regulatory regimes from time to time, and has proposed legislative amendment to the Legislative Council when appropriate. In fact, the Government has proposed legislative amendments related to drug regulations over the past few years, including amending PPO in 2015 to strengthen regulation on pharmaceutical product and streamline the registration procedures; and further amending PPO in 2019 to establish a clear regulatory framework for advanced therapy products in order to protect public health and foster the development of these products. In addition, the Government has amended CMO in 2017 to allow the Director of Health to issue the Chinese medicine safety order in order to prohibit the sale and/or recall of a problematic Chinese herbal medicine or related product. We will continue to review drug related regulatory mechanism in accordance with the latest development in both the international and local drug markets.

Internet devices at home for students from grass-roots families

13. MR WU CHI-WAI (in Chinese): President, to cope with the Coronavirus Disease 2019 epidemic, schools suspended classes and implemented online teaching and learning on a number of occasions in recent months. While classes have now been resumed in schools, quite a number of schools still use online teaching and learning on a supplementary basis. Some parents from grass-roots families have relayed that this mode of learning is more demanding on the Internet devices at home, which has increased their financial burden. However, they are ineligible to apply for the "Provision of Subsidy to Needy Primary and Secondary Students for Purchasing Mobile Computer Devices to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1565

Facilitate the Practice of e-Learning" under the Community Care Fund ("the subsidy programme") because the schools in which their children study have not participated in the programme. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) as the Education Bureau ("EDB") has, in view of the epidemic, flexibly handled applications under the subsidy programme submitted by schools for their eligible students, whether it has assessed if this arrangement has resulted in an increase in the numbers of schools participating in the programme and students benefitting from the programme; if so, of the details;

(2) of the respective current numbers of (i) schools participating in the subsidy programme and (ii) schools which are eligible but have not participated in the programme; respective tabulated breakdowns of such numbers by schools' (a) type (i.e. secondary school, primary school and special school) and (b) funding mode (i.e. government, aided, caput, and Direct Subsidy Scheme); if such figures are not available, whether it will compile the statistics;

(3) given that EDB indicated last month that it expected around 100 000 students from some 800 schools would benefit from the subsidy programme in the following school year, of a breakdown of such number of schools by type and funding mode (as above); the basis on which such projected numbers were derived; and

(4) whether it will examine relaxing the eligibility criteria and streamlining the vetting and approval procedure of the subsidy programme, so as to encourage schools to participate in the programme and enable more students from grass-roots families to benefit from the programme?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President, through the Community Care Fund ("CCF"), the Education Bureau ("EDB") has been implementing since the 2018-2019 school year a three-year assistance programme on provision of subsidy to needy primary and secondary students for purchasing mobile computer devices ("Assistance Programme"), so as to relieve the financial burden on students from low-income families caused by the development of the 1566 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Bring Your Own Device ("BYOD") policy on campus. The target beneficiaries are students receiving subsidies under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme or the School Textbook Assistance Scheme in public sector schools (including government, aided, caput and Direct Subsidy Scheme ("DSS") schools) that implement the BYOD policy.

Face-to-face classes in schools were once suspended due to the COVID-19 epidemic. As many students need to use mobile computer devices for e-learning at home during the period, EDB flexibly handles applications for Assistance Programme and accepts those from all public sector primary and secondary schools implementing e-learning for their eligible students before the full resumption of classes. EDB has also explained to schools such flexible arrangements and encouraged them to submit applications for needy students through various channels, including a letter dated 23 March 2020 and a circular memorandum dated 28 May 2020.

Our reply to the question raised by Mr WU Chi-wai is as follows:

(1) to (3)

Application period for the 2020-2021 school year is from May 2020 to end of January 2021. EDB issued a letter on 3 August this year to remind schools of the relevant flexible arrangements again and requested them to provide information relating to supporting students' e-learning at home. The response from schools was positive, with more than 75% indicating that they would participate in Assistance Programme this school year and the rest replying that they have put in place school-based measures to support needy students, such as lending mobile computer devices to students for use at home, or applying for other assistance programmes for them. In addition, the schools have provided the initial estimated number of student beneficiaries for EDB's reference when submitting their applications. As at early November this year, about 800 schools have submitted applications, which is a substantial increase as compared with the previous two school years. The estimated number of student beneficiaries in the 2020-2021 school year is about 100 000, which triples the total number of student beneficiaries in the 2018-2019 and 2019-2020 school years. The LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1567 actual number of student beneficiaries will only be known after schools have submitted a report to EDB upon completion of the procurement procedures. The relevant statistics are set out below:

2018-2019 2019-2020 2020-2021 Type of school year school year school year# schools Government Aided Government Aided Government Aided schools schools* schools schools* schools schools* Primary 1 88 2 138 31 375 schools Secondary 3 85 5 121 24 332 schools Special Not Not Not 11 15 39 schools applicable applicable applicable Total 4 184 7 274 55 746

Note:

* The figures include local schools under DSS and caput schools.

# As at early November 2020.

All public sector primary and secondary schools implementing e-learning can apply for Assistance Programme for their eligible students. Schools may formulate their own learning support strategies during class suspension according to students' needs and the school context including whether e-learning is suitable for young pupils in junior primary classes or students with special educational needs. Assistance Programme is only one of the options to support financially needy students. Other options include lending schools' mobile computer devices to students for use, or assisting students in applying for or receiving mobile computer devices donated by charitable organizations. Meanwhile, if schools do not have any eligible student beneficiaries, they do not need to participate in Assistance Programme. In sum, schools should take into consideration the needs of their students and school context, the direction of implementing e-learning and other support measures in deciding whether to apply for Assistance Programme. EDB has been actively promoting Assistance Programme to schools and providing relevant professional training for teachers and technical support, etc. and will also keep in view the support needs of schools in respect of e-learning.

1568 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

(4) EDB has streamlined the administrative arrangements for schools to participate in Assistance Programme. At present, schools are only required to submit an application in order to purchase suitable mobile computer devices for eligible students in accordance with their procurement procedures. After completing the procurement procedures, schools need to submit a report to EDB for working out the subsidy required. EDB is closely monitoring the implementation of the Programme, and will review its operation and effectiveness and consolidate the relevant experience with a view to enhancing the measures in support of e-learning.

Hong Kong people purchasing properties in the Greater Bay Area

14. MR CHAN CHUN-YING (in Chinese): President, on 6 November last year, the Central Government announced 16 measures which would benefit Hong Kong, one of which was to facilitate the purchases of properties by Hong Kong people in the Mainland cities of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Greater Bay Area"). Quite a number of members of the public have relayed that as the Mainland authorities have imposed restrictions on the amount of cross-boundary Renminbi ("RMB") remittances, when they make payments for the properties by remitting RMB to the Mainland developers, they cannot do so through local banks but only through money changers using improper channels. As a result, they have to bear the risks of being prosecuted for money laundering, or their remittances being frozen by the Mainland authorities or stolen. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether, since the announcement of the aforesaid measure, it has discussed with the Mainland authorities arrangements for facilitating Hong Kong people to remit RMB to Mainland developers and allowing Hong Kong people to make payments for the properties in Hong Kong dollars; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;

(2) whether it will step up publicity and education efforts to remind members of the public who intend to purchase properties in the Mainland cities of the Greater Bay Area of the risks they have to bear for making payments for the properties through money changers; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1569

(3) whether it will strive for the introduction of more policies by the Mainland authorities to facilitate the purchases of properties by Hong Kong people in the Mainland cities of the Greater Bay Area; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, the Chief Executive attended the meeting of the Leading Group for the Development of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Leading Group") as a member on 6 November 2019. After the Leading Group meeting, the Central Government announced 16 policy measures, one of which was to facilitate Hong Kong residents purchasing properties in the Mainland cities of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Greater Bay Area"). Hong Kong residents are no longer required to provide evidence of their duration of residence, study or employment, nor do they have to meet conditions on the payment of individual income tax and social security when purchasing properties in the Mainland cities of Greater Bay Area, meaning that they now enjoy the same treatment as local residents. This measure can facilitate Hong Kong residents to study, work and reside after retirement on the Mainland.

Having consulted the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau, our consolidated reply to Mr CHAN Chun-ying's question is as follows:

Following the announcement of the policy measure by the Leading Group to facilitate Hong Kong residents purchasing properties in the Mainland cities of Greater Bay Area in November 2019, the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ("HKSAR") Government has been liaising with the Mainland authorities closely to seek clearer and more convenient supporting arrangements in areas such as cross-boundary mortgage and remittance. The Governments of the HKSAR and Guangdong Province would work together to streamline the procedures for purchasing residential properties and to seek mortgage policy enhancements for Hong Kong residents in the Mainland cities of Greater Bay Area.

The Department of Natural Resources of Guangdong Province released a notice in August 2020 regarding real estate mortgage registration in the nine Mainland Greater Bay Area cities by banks in Hong Kong and Macao, which states clearly that banks in Hong Kong and Macao can offer cross-boundary 1570 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 mortgage services and standardizes the procedures for banks to make registration for the mortgage, providing a basis for Hong Kong banks to develop their cross-boundary mortgage business. The HKSAR Government will continue to follow up with the Mainland authorities to provide facilitating arrangements for Hong Kong residents to purchase residential properties in the nine Mainland Greater Bay Area cities.

Under the Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorist Financing Ordinance (Cap. 615), the Customs and Excise Department ("C&ED") is responsible for the supervision of licensed money service operators ("MSOs"), including money changers which provide remittance services. C&ED ensures licensed MSOs' compliance with the requirements relating to customer due diligence and record-keeping, as well as other licensing requirements. Also, C&ED attaches great importance to the protection of the interests of people who procure cross-border remittance services. Through different channels (such as press releases), C&ED has all along been appealing to members of the public to entrust reputable licensed MSOs to carry out remittance transactions and to carefully understand the relevant terms and conditions, as well as the potential risks before the transaction. C&ED will also continue to ensure that MSOs handle their customers' payment and complete relevant transactions in an appropriate manner through compliance inspections, outreach publicity campaigns and other regulatory measures.

Imposition of sanctions on US companies by China

15. MR JEREMY TAM (in Chinese): President, on the 26th of last month, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China announced the imposition of sanctions on three companies from the United States ("US"), namely Boeing Defense, Lockheed Martin, and Raytheon. Currently, Raytheon is the supplier of the Air Traffic Management System ("ATMS") of the Civil Aviation Department ("CAD") installed at the Hong Kong International Airport, and provides hardware and software maintenance services for ATMS. As the Basic Law stipulates that the Central People's Government ("CPG") shall be responsible for the foreign affairs relating to the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ("SAR") and its defence, some members of the public are concerned that the sanctions may have impacts on the SAR Government. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1571

(1) of the government departments which (i) have entered into or (ii) are negotiating for contracts with the three aforesaid companies for the supply of services/goods, and set out in the table below the relevant details;

Name, value, Name and value of Government Company effective date and contract under department name expiry date of negotiation existing contract CAD Raytheon … …

(2) whether the ATMS maintenance service contracts involve any service or equipment which is subject to the US export controls on dual-use technologies; if so, of the details; and

(3) whether the SAR Government is required to follow CPG by imposing sanctions on the three companies; if so, in respect of such sanctions, (i) of the details, (ii) whether they have impacts on the ATMS repair and maintenance work (if they do, of the corresponding plans to ensure that aviation safety will not be affected), and (iii) whether they have impacts on the procurement work and operation of various government departments (if they do, of the corresponding plans); if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, my reply to the various parts of Mr Jeremy TAM's question is as follows:

(1) and (2)

The Civil Aviation Department ("CAD")'s Air Traffic Management System ("ATMS") was provided by Raytheon, and CAD does not have any contractual arrangement with Boeing Defense or Lockheed Martin at present. The procurement of CAD's ATMS strictly followed the procurement regulations applicable to all Government departments. In the contract signed between CAD and the supplier concerned, there are provisions requiring the supplier to provide the necessary civil aviation equipment and services pursuant to the 1572 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

contractual requirements. As the maintenance contract of ATMS involves sensitive commercial information, we would not disclose the details to any third party. We have been, and will continue to be, in close communication with the supplier.

Meanwhile, we have consulted other policy bureau/departments. Based on the feedbacks received, no other policy bureau/department has contractual arrangement in force with any of the three companies concerned.

(3) As far as aviation is concerned, the Government will pay close attention to matters related to the operation of the Hong Kong International Airport and review our corresponding strategies and arrangements in a timely manner. We will spare no effort in ensuring aviation safety and that the maintenance work for ATMS would not be affected, and in consolidating Hong Kong's position as an international aviation hub.

Salary arrangements for kindergarten teachers

16. MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Chinese): President, the Chief Executive ("CE") put forward in her election manifesto in 2017 the establishment of a salary scale for kindergarten ("KG") teachers with the aim of providing KG teachers with a stable working and teaching environment. The Education Bureau ("EDB") has introduced, since the 2017-2018 school year, the Kindergarten Education Scheme ("the Scheme"), under which eligible local non-profit-making KGs are provided with a direct subsidy and salary ranges have been set for KG teachers. On the other hand, the wastage rate of KG teachers in recent years has remained on the high side, standing at 12% or higher in the past two school years. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) given that EDB has, since the middle of last year, started to consult stakeholders on the introduction of a salary scale for KG teachers and the corresponding "basic half-day unit subsidy" arrangements, etc., of the views received and the final proposal of EDB; the estimated additional recurrent expenditure to be incurred annually for implementing the proposal;

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1573

(2) whether it has plans to complete the establishment of a salary scale for KG teachers by the end of the term of the current Government; if so, of the implementation timetable; if not, the reasons for that, and whether it will assess if CE has failed to honour the relevant pledge she made in her election manifesto; and

(3) given that under the Scheme, EDB provides a tide-over grant for KGs so that they can retain their long serving teachers, and the grant will cease by the end of the next school year, of the follow-up arrangements to be put in place by EDB, and whether EDB will announce such arrangements expeditiously so that KGs' management can make early preparation?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President, the Government attaches great importance to education. In the past three years, the current-term Government has increased over $13 billion cumulatively in recurrent expenditure on education, particularly in the area of supporting principals and teachers. This aims at providing the education sector with additional resources for improving teaching manpower, creating a stable, caring and rewarding environment to tie in with the enhanced quality of education. Regarding kindergarten ("KG") education, the Government has implemented the new KG education policy starting from the 2017-2018 school year covering measures on improving teachers' remuneration, alleviating the financial burden of school fees on parents and improving quality of teaching. The KG sector is capable of quickly responding to the needs of society given its diversified and flexible characteristics. The mobility of KG teachers is affected by many factors, including, pursuing further study, retirement, marriage/child-bearing/child-raising, other family reasons, etc., which may not necessarily be fully related to remuneration.

Our reply to the question raised by Mr IP Kin-yuen is as follows:

(1) and (2)

The Education Bureau ("EDB") has all along been committed to enhancing the KG education policy and implementing new initiatives and increasing appropriations as and when necessary. For instance, the 14-week paid maternity leave has been implemented since January 2019 with the provision of a staff relief grant. The grant for support to non-Chinese speaking students has 1574 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

been enhanced since the 2019-2020 school year, with the highest grant rate being doubled to about $800,000 per annum in this school year. We have also introduced the Pilot Schemes on Relocation Grant and Renovation Grant in the 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 school years, a one-off Website Enhancement Grant in the 2020-2021 school year, etc.

On teachers' salary, the Chief Executive announced in the 2018 Policy Address that the data of the three school years from 2017-2018 to 2019-2020 would be used as the basis for exploring the feasibility of introducing a salary scale for KG teachers. We started a comprehensive review in mid-2019 on the implementation of the KG education policy and salary arrangements for teachers is one of the key areas for review. During the process of consultation, we arranged meetings with different stakeholders including school sponsoring bodies, KG principals, major KG associations and teachers' unions, tertiary institutions, relevant non-government organizations, teachers and parents, to gauge their views. As the salary arrangements for KG teachers involve operation of KGs and their flexibility in resources deployment, the sector concurs that it should be examined thoroughly and handled prudently in assessing the implications of setting up a salary scale for KG teachers on the stability of the teaching force, the sustainability of quality services as well as the flexibility and diversity of the KG sector. Based on the data and information in the past few years, we have been studying the feasibility of different options and conducting detailed discussions with stakeholders. The consultation is still ongoing and the review exercise is expected to complete in 2021. EDB is unable to provide any information on the review results, estimated expenditure and implementation schedule at this stage.

(3) The tide-over grant ("ToG") aims to provide short-term additional financial support for KGs, which had more long-serving teachers who were receiving high salaries before participating in the Kindergarten Education Scheme ("the Scheme"), in defraying their expenses on such teaching staff in the early period of implementation of the Scheme and enabling KGs to retain these teachers. During the period covered by ToG provided by the Government, KGs should formulate their school-based financial and staffing policy for migration to the new policy before the lapse of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1575

ToG. Details are set out in paragraph 14 of Appendix 3 in EDB Circular No. 7/2016. In 2017, the Government announced the extension of ToG from two years (the 2017-2018 and 2018-2019 school years) for three more years (the 2019-2020 to 2021-2022 school years). In reviewing the implementation of the new KG education policy, we will at the same time consider the actual situation of KGs in employment of teachers.

Transport fare-related subsidy schemes

17. MRS REGINA IP (in Chinese): President, the Government is currently implementing a number of transport fare-related subsidy schemes, including the Work Incentive Transport Subsidy Scheme ("Scheme 1"), the Public Transport Fare Subsidy Scheme ("Scheme 2"), and the Government Public Transport Fare Concession Scheme for the Elderly and Eligible Persons with Disabilities ("Scheme 3"). In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the total amount of subsidy granted, the number of beneficiaries, and the administrative cost incurred in respect of Scheme 1 in each year since its launch in 2011;

(2) of the total amount of subsidy granted, the number of beneficiaries, and the administrative cost incurred in respect of Scheme 2 since its launch in 2019; and

(3) given that no income or asset test is provided for Scheme 2 and Scheme 3, and the Government is studying the lowering of the eligibility age of Scheme 3 to 60, whether the Government has any concrete plans to prevent those members of the public who have no financial needs from enjoying double or triple benefits, so as to ensure the proper use of public funds; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Chinese): President, the Work Incentive Transport Subsidy ("WITS") Scheme (only receives individual-based applications starting from 1 April 2019 (referred hereafter as the I-WITS Scheme, see response to sub-question (1) below for details)) aims to assist low-income earners reduce their cost of travelling to and from work and 1576 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 encourages them to secure or stay in employment, through the provision of fixed-rate allowances. Beneficiaries of the WITS Scheme are therefore subject to income and asset tests and the fulfilment of the working hour requirements.

As far as the Government Public Transport Fare Concession Scheme for the Elderly and Eligible Persons with Disabilities (the $2 Scheme) is concerned, the objective is to build a caring and inclusive society by enabling elderly people aged 65 or above and eligible persons with disabilities to enjoy a concessionary fare of $2 per trip to travel on general public transport modes and services. Beneficiaries of the $2 Scheme are only required to reach the relevant age threshold, or being eligible persons with disabilities. They are not subject to any means tests.

In comparison, the target beneficiaries of the Public Transport Fare Subsidy Scheme ("PTFSS") administered by the Transport and Housing Bureau ("THB") are the public at large. There are therefore no specific restrictions or any means tests for its beneficiaries. PTFSS aims to relieve the fare burden of commuters whose public transport expenses are relatively high. The Government has enhanced PTFSS since 1 January 2020. If a citizen's monthly public transport expense exceeds $400, the Government will provide a one-third subsidy of such expense in excess of $400, with the subsidy cap set at $400 per month. Furthermore, the Government has introduced a temporary special measure under the second round of the Anti-Epidemic Fund to temporarily relax the monthly expense threshold of PTFSS from $400 to $200 from 1 July to 31 December 2020.

Given PTFSS has not imposed specific restrictions or means tests on its beneficiaries, eligible beneficiaries of the I-WITS Scheme and/or the $2 Scheme may also benefit from PTFSS if their actual public transport expenses exceed the monthly level under PTFSS.

As for the Member's sub-questions, having consulted THB, my response is set out below:

(1) The WITS Scheme started receiving applications in October 2011 and was managed by the Labour Department ("LD"). Based on information from LD, a breakdown of the expenditure incurred by the department from the management of the WITS Scheme and the number of applicants granted WITS (gross applicant count) by year are as follows:

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1577

Amount of Number of Amount of administrative applicants Year subsidy costs (including granted WITS ($ million) staff costs) (gross applicant ($ million) count) 2011-2012 77.9 55.1 22 319 2012-2013 203.7 64.1 49 611 2013-2014^ 321.6 84.8 77 291 2014-2015 352.4 90.5 81 091 2015-2016 304.1 93.3 69 417 2016-2017 265.5 80.1 61 096 2017-2018 256.5 76.3 57 423 2018-2019* 197.6 66.8 45 397

Notes:

^ From 1 July 2013 onwards, apart from applying for WITS on a household basis, WITS applicants may also choose to apply for WITS on an individual basis.

* Upon the implementation of the Working Family Allowance Scheme on 1 April 2018, the household-based WITS was abolished on the same date.

The Working Family Allowance Office ("WFAO") under the Working Family and Student Financial Assistance Agency took over the management of the I-WITS Scheme from LD on 1 April 2019. A breakdown of the subsidy approved under the I-WITS Scheme and the number of applicants granted I-WITS by year is as follows:

Amount of subsidy Number of applicants Year ($ million) granted I-WITS# 2019-2020 157.1 25 761 2020-2021 80.7 21 171 (up to 30 October 2020)

Note:

# WFAO complies its statistics based on the number of applicants, which is different from LD's gross-applicant-counts-based methodology. Given the claim period of an I-WITS application covers the immediate past six calendar months before its submission, applicants may submit more than one application during a particular year.

1578 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

WFAO is tasked to assist the Labour and Welfare Bureau to manage the I-WITS Scheme and the Working Family Allowance Scheme at the same time. WFAO does not keep any breakdown of the administrative costs incurred from the management of the I-WITS Scheme.

(2) According to information provided by THB, from the launch of PTFSS in January 2019 to October 2020, the total subsidy amount involved was over $3.5 billion, representing a monthly average of about $160 million; and the average number of beneficiaries per month was about 2 million. Since the launch of PTFSS, the actual recurrent expenditure involved (excluding the subsidy amount) was about $89 million.

(3) As set out at the preamble of the reply, there are no specific restrictions or any means tests for the beneficiaries of PTFSS. Provided that their actual public transport expense exceeds the level under PTFSS, eligible beneficiaries of the I-WITS Scheme may also benefit from PTFSS at the same time. Meanwhile, the actual public transport expense for beneficiaries of the $2 Scheme will normally not exceed that of PTFSS, meaning that it is unlikely for them to have enjoyed "doubled benefits".

As for the possible occurrence of "double benefits" between PTFSS and the I-WITS Scheme, the Government will monitor the situation closely, and explore feasible improvement measures to ensure proper use of public resources.

Proposed "Joint Policy Package" for Hong Kong and Shenzhen

18. MR MARTIN LIAO (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that the authorities of Hong Kong and Shenzhen are discussing the rolling out of a "Joint Policy Package", which covers joint policies on the flows of talents, capital, resources and data between Hong Kong and Shenzhen, with a view to enhancing the attraction to innovation and technology ("I&T") talents, adding momentum to the I&T synergistic development between Hong Kong and Shenzhen, as well as LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1579 promoting the development of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Greater Bay Area") into an international I&T hub. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) in respect of the discussion and cooperation between Hong Kong and Shenzhen, of the differences between the mode and mechanism proposed to be established under the Joint Policy Package and the existing ones;

(2) whether (i) specific targets (e.g. the number of I&T talents to be admitted, as well as the categories and areas of scientific researches to which they belong), and (ii) implementation timetables for the various policies concerned, will be formulated in respect of the Joint Policy Package;

(3) whether, apart from I&T, the Government will consider discussing with the Shenzhen authorities the introduction of similar joint policy packages in respect of other key areas of cooperation between Hong Kong and Shenzhen (e.g. finance and healthcare); and

(4) whether it will consider discussing with the authorities of other cities in the Greater Bay Area the formulation of similar joint policy packages?

SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY (in Chinese): President, in consultation with the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau, the Food and Health Bureau and the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau, we provide the consolidated reply to the various parts of the question as follow:

(1) and (2)

Hong Kong and Shenzhen are close partners and the two governments have made remarkable progress cooperating in various areas over the years. With the goal of developing an international innovation and technology ("I&T") hub under the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area ("Greater Bay Area") development 1580 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

strategy, the cooperation between the two places in I&T as well as in fostering the flow of people and elements of production and I&T can be further expanded.

In the aspect of I&T, the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ("HKSAR") Government is taking forward the development of the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Innovation and Technology Park ("the Park") located in the Lok Ma Chau Loop ("the Loop") at full swing to develop a key base for cooperation in scientific research. The Park will become Hong Kong's largest-ever I&T platform. According to the consultancy study commissioned by the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Innovation and Technology Park Limited, the Park will focus on the development of six research and development ("R&D") areas, including healthcare technologies, big data and artificial intelligence, robotics, new material, microelectronics, and financial technology. Meanwhile, together with the Shenzhen Innovation and Technology Zone ("SZ I&T Zone") at the north side of Shenzhen River and adjacent to the Loop, the Park will form a cohesive and synergistic Shenzhen/Hong Kong Innovation and Technology Co-operation Zone ("the Co-operation Zone"). The Co-operation Zone will leverage on the complementary advantages of both Hong Kong and Shenzhen. For example, with the combination of Hong Kong's solid R&D strengths and Shenzhen's stronger capability in advanced manufacturing, a value-adding chain that covers the upstream, midstream and downstream processes can be created. The Governments on both sides are exploring the feasibility of leasing and managing some of the existing buildings in SZ I&T Zone by the Hong Kong Science and Technology Parks Corporation, in order to allow suitable and interested institutions and enterprises tapping into the Mainland market as soon as possible prior to the completion of the first batch of buildings in the Park.

To attract more talent and enterprises (including start-ups) to develop in the Co-operation Zone, the HKSAR Government and the Shenzhen Municipal People's Government will continue through the established mechanism to study the formulation of joint policy for the Park and SZ I&T Zone and explore to provide facilitation and supportive measures in the aspects of R&D resources, capital and immigration. Both sides will also join hands in promoting the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1581

advantages in I&T with a view to attracting talent and enterprises from Mainland and overseas. We hope to finalize the joint policy package as soon as possible.

(3) and (4)

The HKSAR Government will continue to seize the opportunities brought about by the development of the Greater Bay Area, and on the basis of complementarity and win-win collaboration, deepen cooperation with Shenzhen and other Greater Bay Area cities in areas such as I&T, financial services, maritime transport and infrastructure, medical services, education and youth innovation and entrepreneurship. Through policy innovation, we will take forward the initiatives set out in the Outline Development Plan for the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area, thereby creating more opportunities and scope for development for Hong Kong people and different sectors of the community and striving to develop the Greater Bay Area into an highly innovative international first class bay area and a world-class city cluster.

Taking finance development as an example, on 14 May 2020, the Central Government promulgated the "Opinion on Providing Financial Support for the Development of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area" ("the Opinion"), which sets out concrete measures for the development of finance of the Greater Bay Area to deepen financial cooperation between the Mainland, Hong Kong and Macao. We will continue to cooperate closely with the Mainland authorities and leverage our unique strengths as an international financial centre. In a risk-controlled manner, we will orderly implement policy initiatives set out in the Opinion with a view to promoting the sustainable development of the financial services sector.

Besides, in the aspect of healthcare, as a facilitation measure for Hong Kong residents working and living in the Greater Bay Area cities to seek healthcare services locally, and to encourage locally-funded healthcare institutions to set up in the Greater Bay Area, the State Council has approved the proposal to allow use of drugs that are urgently needed for clinical use and registered in Hong 1582 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Kong, as well as common medical devices that have already been procured and used in local public hospitals, in designated healthcare institutions in the nine Greater Bay Area cities. The new measure will begin at the University of Hong Kong-Shenzhen Hospital on a pilot basis, and will be gradually expanded to other designated healthcare institutions.

Meanwhile, on the medical education front, the HKSAR Government supports the University of Hong Kong and The Chinese University of Hong Kong to introduce the successful models of their Faculties of Medicine to the Greater Bay Area in training healthcare professionals and assisting in raising the professional healthcare standards in the Mainland. The two universities are now discussing with the relevant Mainland authorities and the municipal and provincial governments on the project details.

As regards the development of Chinese medicine, the proposal on the Development of Chinese Medicine in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area covering 2020-2025 published on 22 October includes allowing proprietary Chinese medicines for external use registered in Hong Kong to be registered and traded in the Greater Bay Area through simplified approval process, as well as other measures to foster employment, training and development of local Chinese medicine practitioners in the Greater Bay Area. The HKSAR Government will actively complement the implementation of the aforementioned proposal.

Services for searching various registers and government records

19. MS ALICE MAK (in Chinese): President, regarding the services provided by the Government for searching various registers and government records which contain personal data ("search services"), will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the number of applications for each type of search services in each of the past two financial years and, among them, the number of those rejected;

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1583

(2) whether the relevant government departments have imposed regulation and conducted random checks on the search services to prevent them from being abused; if so, of the details, and the respective numbers of persons prosecuted and convicted in the past five years for unlawful use of the personal data obtained through the search services;

(3) of the current requirements of the various search services in respect of the following: (i) whether the applicants are required to give reasons for the applications, (ii) whether there are restrictions on the types of applicants, and (iii) whether the types of data obtainable are dependent on the reasons for application and the types of applicants; whether the Government will comprehensively review such requirements with a view to preventing abuses of the search services;

(4) whether it will enact legislation or formulate a mechanism to enable a data subject to apply on reasonable grounds (such as personal safety being threatened) for classification of the data relating to him or her in a register or government record as confidential or non-public, so that it does not fall within the scope of data which is obtainable from the search services; and

(5) of the measures in place to prevent personal data obtained through the search services from being used for improper purposes, such as doxxing?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, at present, government public registers are maintained and managed by respective government departments. The content available for public inspection is decided by respective departments having regard to the relevant legislation and policies with a view to achieving the purpose of the public register and at the same time suitably safeguarding personal data privacy. The Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau does not have the search figures of the respective public registers.

1584 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Reviews are conducted from time to time by government departments on the arrangements and other matters relating to the handling of public registers in the light of social development and public needs, with the aim to satisfy public needs and at the same time endeavour to safeguard the personal data privacy of data subjects and appropriately balancing freedom of speech and information flow. At present, according to section 64(2) of the Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance ("PDPO"), a person commits an offence if he/she discloses any personal data obtained from a data user without the data user's consent and such disclosure causes psychological harm to the data subject. The person who commits such offence is liable on conviction to a fine of $1 million and to imprisonment for five years. Since the social unrest in June last year, the Police has to date arrested 17 individuals for alleged contravention of section 64 of PDPO. On 9 October 2020, one of the defendants was convicted in the District Court of, among other charges, contravention of section 64(2) of PDPO. On 3 November 2020, the defendant was sentenced to 18 months' imprisonment, and together with other convictions, received a sentence of imprisonment for a total of two years.

Statistics on seasonal influenza vaccination

20. DR PIERRE CHAN (in Chinese): President, the various seasonal influenza vaccination schemes for 2020-2021 commenced one after another in October this year. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the respective numbers of (a) primary schools and (b) kindergartens/child care centres which participated in (i) the Seasonal Influenza Vaccination School Outreach (Free of Charge) ("SIV") and (ii) the Vaccination Subsidy Scheme School Outreach (Extra Charge Allowed) since the beginning of the current school year and the relevant details; the respective numbers of school children who have and who have not received influenza vaccination so far, and how the relevant vaccination coverage rates of school children compare with those of the same period last year;

(2) given that there have been successive cases in South Korea and Taiwan recently in which some residents died soon after receiving influenza vaccination, arousing concerns among quite a number of parents of school children about the safety of the influenza vaccines LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1585

in Hong Kong, whether it knows the respective numbers, since the beginning of the current school year, of school children from (i) primary schools and (ii) kindergartens/child care centres whose parents have withdrawn the consent forms for their children to receive vaccination;

(3) given that under SIV, the vaccines for primary schools are provided by the Department of Health ("DH") but the vaccines for kindergartens/child care centres are arranged by the participating doctors themselves, whether it will modify the arrangement so that vaccines will be provided by DH across the board; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;

(4) whether it knows the number of members of the public in Hong Kong who received influenza vaccination in each of the past five years (including those who received vaccination at their own expense) and their vaccination coverage rate, broken down by the groups set out in the table below (set out separately in tables of the same format as the table below);

Year: ______Number of persons who Vaccination Group received vaccination coverage rate Children between 6 months and under 6 years old Children aged between 6 and under 12 Persons aged between 12 and under 50 Persons aged between 50 and under 65 Persons aged 65 or above Pregnant women Persons with chronic health problems Overall population

1586 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

(5) of (i) the quantity of nasal influenza vaccines procured by DH and the amount of expenditure so incurred, as well as (ii) the respective numbers of those persons belonging to the various groups set out in the aforesaid table who have received such vaccines, since April last year; whether it will use more nasal vaccines in providing influenza vaccination services for children in 2021-2022; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;

(6) of the quantity of influenza vaccines provided for the Hospital Authority by DH under the Government Vaccination Programme and the amount of expenditure involved, in each of the past five years;

(7) of the total amount of subsidy disbursed by the Government to the private doctors participating in the Vaccination Subsidy Scheme in 2019-2020;

(8) of the quantity of unused but expired or damaged influenza vaccines and the amount of money involved under the various vaccination schemes, in each of the past five years; and

(9) of the number of cases received by DH in each of the past five years from members of the public who felt extremely unwell soon after receiving influenza vaccination, with a breakdown by the age group to which they belonged and their illnesses?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, influenza can cause serious illnesses in high-risk individuals and even healthy persons. Given that influenza vaccines are safe and effective, all persons aged six months or above except those with known contraindications are recommended to receive influenza vaccine to safeguard their health. In consultation with the Department of Health ("DH"), our reply to various parts of Dr Pierre CHAN's question is as follows:

(1) and (2)

As at 8 November 2020, among the some 450 primary schools and 760 kindergartens/kindergarten-cum-child care centres/child care centres ("KG/CCCs") that enrolled in the 2020-2021 Seasonal LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1587

Influenza Vaccination ("SIV") School Outreach (Free of Charge) ("School Outreach (Free of Charge)"), 179 primary schools and 439 KG/CCCs have provided outreach vaccination at school, and over 65 300 primary school students and 44 000 children in KG/CCCs have received SIV. Separately, doctors providing SIV school outreach under the Vaccination Subsidy Scheme ("VSS") (i.e. School Outreach (Extra charge Allowed)) are required to notify DH two weeks before the vaccination activities. As at 8 November 2020, 49 primary schools and 40 KG/CCCs provided outreach vaccination at schools under the School Outreach (Extra Charge Allowed), and over 22 200 primary school students and 7 400 children in KG/CCCs have received SIV.

As at 8 November 2020, about 167 900 children aged between 6 months and under 12 received SIV under various government vaccination programmes, representing an uptake rate of 25.2% so far. The number of children vaccinated is comparable to that of the corresponding period last year. DH does not maintain information about the number of withdrawal of vaccination consent forms by parents of the schoolchildren of primary schools and KG/CCCs under the relevant vaccination programmes.

(3) The number of students in KG/CCCs is relatively small in comparison with that of primary schools (in 2019-2020 season, the median number of students of primary schools and KG/CCCs enrolled in the programme are 700 and 140 respectively) and the locations of KG/CCCs are more disperse. If vaccine procurement is coordinated by DH, it might cause inconvenience to the participating doctors who have to take into account the vaccine delivery schedule of the vaccine suppliers and adjust their vaccination arrangement accordingly. During the evaluation of the 2019-2020 School Outreach (Free of Charge), DH surveyed the views of outreach participating on the preferred way of vaccine procurement. Over half of the surveyed doctors preferred to procure the vaccines by themselves or did not have any preference. In sum, DH opines that it would be more flexible and effective for outreach doctors to directly procure and deliver the vaccines for 1588 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

outreach activities. DH will continue to communicate with the outreach doctors, monitor the vaccination arrangements from time to time and make adjustments when necessary.

(4) The number of persons from the eligible groups receiving SIV under various government vaccination programmes and their uptake rates in the past five years are detailed in Annex 1. A new eligible group has been added under VSS (subsidized vaccination) and Government Vaccination Programmes ("GVP") (free vaccination) in the 2020-2021 season to cover the recipients of standard rate of "100% disabled" or "requiring constant attendance" under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance ("CSSA") Scheme. Since some members from the eligible groups might have received influenza vaccines by arrangement other than government vaccination programmes, the figures related to these persons are not reflected in Annex 1.

(5) Currently, there are two types of influenza vaccines registered in Hong Kong, namely the inactivated influenza vaccine ("IIV") administered by injection and live-attenuated influenza vaccine ("LAIV") administered by nasal spray. Both types of influenza vaccines are recommended for use in Hong Kong by the Scientific Committee on Vaccine Preventable Diseases in the 2020-2021 season.

As LAIV has not been widely used in Hong Kong, DH provided LAIV for 21 schools participating in School Outreach (Free of Charge) in the 2019-2020 season to test the feasibility and logistical arrangements in applying such vaccines under vaccination schemes. A total of 1 700 doses of LAIV were procured, involving an expenditure of $340,000. The conclusion of the trial is that the uptake rate of LAIV is comparable to that of IIV. For the 2020-2021 season, DH is in close liaison with the vaccine suppliers with a view to procuring additional vaccines (including LAIV) as announced on 22 October 2020. The quantities of the vaccines and the expenditure incurred is being finalized.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1589

Moreover, schools may choose to use IIV or LAIV from private doctors under the School Outreach (Free of Charge)―KG/CCCs. Private doctors may choose to use IIV or LAIV in private clinics or outreach programmes under VSS (including School Outreach (Extra Charge Allowed)). DH does not maintain information about the number of persons receiving LAIV in various target groups. DH will continue to monitor the arrangements in the 2020-2021 season for the planning and arrangement of the vaccination programmes in the 2021-2022 season.

(6) DH is responsible for procuring influenza vaccines under GVP and the School Outreach (Free of Charge)―Primary Schools. Influenza vaccines used by the Hospital Authority ("HA") under GVP are procured and allocated by DH. DH does not maintain the expenditure incurred for vaccines supplied to HA separately.

The percentage of influenza vaccines provided each year by DH to HA amongst the influenza vaccines procured in that season in the past five years are detailed in Annex 2.

(7) In the 2019-2020 season, the expenditure incurred by DH for subsidizing private doctors under VSS is $106.7 million.

(8) In general, the product life of influenza vaccine can last for one year and the expired vaccines will not be used. Unused but expired or damaged vaccines are arranged for disposal in phases in accordance with the statutory requirements. The cost involved in the disposal of these vaccines has been included in the expenditure for procuring vaccines under various vaccination programmes. The quantities and expenditure of influenza vaccines procured and the number of doses of unused but expired or damaged vaccines under various vaccination programmes in the past five years are detailed in Annex 2.

(9) DH does not maintain number of reports from members of the public who felt extremely unwell subsequent to receiving influenza vaccination. In general, seasonal influenza vaccine is very safe and usually well tolerated apart from occasional soreness, redness or 1590 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

swelling at the injection site. Some recipients may experience fever, muscle pain, and tiredness beginning 6 to 12 hours after vaccination and lasting up to two days.

An adverse event is a health problem that is reported after someone gets vaccinated. It may or may not have been caused by the vaccination. Some of these events may occur by chance during the post-vaccination period and are unrelated to vaccination. Therefore, report of adverse event does not mean that it is caused by vaccination. As for more serious adverse events, the number of Guillain-Barré Syndrome and other serious neurological adverse events reported after receiving SIV (within the period of five days and six weeks after vaccination) in the past five years are as below:

Other serious Guillain-Barré Season neurological adverse Syndrome events 2016-2017 0 0 2017-2018 0 0 2018-2019 0 1 (aged 48) 2019-2020 0 0 2020-2021 0 0 (As at 5 November 2020)

Annex 1

Number of persons from eligible groups who received SIV under various government vaccination programmes and their uptake rates

2020-2021 Season 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2019-2020 (as at 8 November 2020) Uptake Uptake Uptake Uptake Uptake Number of Number of Number of Number of Number of rate of rate of rate of rate of rate of Eligible group persons persons persons persons persons the the the the the vaccinated vaccinated vaccinated vaccinated vaccinated group group group group group Children aged 60 200 19.2% 80 700 25.8% 106 900 34.5% 147 200(1) 47.4% 73 900(1) 24.6% between 6 months and under 6 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1591

2020-2021 Season 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2019-2020 (as at 8 November 2020) Uptake Uptake Uptake Uptake Uptake Number of Number of Number of Number of Number of rate of rate of rate of rate of rate of Eligible group persons persons persons persons persons the the the the the vaccinated vaccinated vaccinated vaccinated vaccinated group group group group group Children aged 52 000 15.7% 70 700 20.5% 201 300 55.4% 253 500(1) 68.1% 94 000(1) 25.7% between 6 and under 12 Persons aged 6 700 ^ 7 400 ^ 156 800 8.8% 194 500 10.7% 144 800 8.0% between 50 and 64(2) Persons aged 478 000 40.8% 531 400 43.5% 555 000 43.6% 610 600 45.8% 298 900 21.7% 65 or above Pregnant 1 100 # 1 800 # 3 000 # 3 600 # 1 400 # women Persons with 14 800 # 17 900 # 17 100 # 18 300 # 6 200 # chronic health problems(3) Others(4) 64 000 # 72 000 # 82 100 # 90 800 # 50 800 #

Notes:

^ The number of eligible persons in this group at the time was too small for meaningful projection to be made for the uptake rate.

# No accurate population statistics were available for this group for meaningful projection to be made for the uptake rate.

(1) The figures include schoolchildren who receive SIV under the School Outreach (Free of Charge), the School Outreach (Extra Charge Allowed), GVP and VSS.

(2) In 2017-2018 season and previous seasons, only CSSA recipients or holders of a valid Certificate for Waiver of Medical Charges ("Certificate") issued by the Social Welfare Department were eligible for SIV under GVP. Since 2018-2019, persons aged between 50 and 64 have been included as one of the eligible groups under VSS.

(3) Persons aged under 50 attending public clinics who are CSSA recipients or valid Certificate holders with high-risk conditions; inpatients (including paediatric patients) of HA with high-risk conditions (e.g. those in infirmary, psycho-geriatric, mentally ill or mentally handicapped units/wards); paediatric outpatients with high-risk conditions or on long-term aspirin; persons with intellectual disability (since 2015-2016 season), Disability Allowance recipients (since 2016-2017 season) or recipients of standard rate of "100% disabled" or "requiring constant attendance" under CSSA (since 2020-2021 season) who are existing clients of HA, clinics of DH, designated day centres, sheltered workshops or special schools are eligible for GVP, while persons with intellectual disability (since 2015-2016 season), Disability Allowance recipients (since 2016-2017 season), recipients of standard rate of "100% disabled" or "requiring constant attendance" under CSSA (since 2020-2021 season) are eligible for VSS.

(4) Other eligible groups include healthcare workers, poultry workers, pig farmers and workers in the pig-slaughtering industry, etc.

1592 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Annex 2

The quantities of influenza vaccines procured, the percentage of influenza vaccines provided to HA amongst the quantities of influenza vaccines procured in that season, the total expenditure for vaccine procurement and the number of doses of unused but expired or damaged vaccines

Percentage of influenza vaccines Quantities of provided to Total Unused but influenza HA amongst expenditure for expired or Season vaccines the quantities vaccine damaged procured of influenza procurement vaccines (doses) (doses) vaccines ($ million) procured in that season (%) 2016-2017 430 000 75.2 23.3 10 000 2017-2018 527 000 74.0 28.0 45 000 2018-2019 654 000 64.1 30.1 41 000 2019-2020 815 000* 58.1 40.8* 38 000 2020-2021 878 000 54.7 83.0 No information (Estimate) (Estimate) (Estimate) available yet

Note:

* Including a total of 1 700 nasal influenza vaccine doses procured in the 2019-2020 season, involving an expenditure of $340,000.

MEMBERS' MOTIONS ON SUBSIDIARY LEGISLATION

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' motions on subsidiary legislation.

Three proposed resolutions under the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance in relation to the extension of the period for amending subsidiary legislation.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1593

First motion: To extend the period for amending the Census and Statistics (2021 Population Census) Order, which was laid on the Table of this Council on 21 October 2020.

I call upon Ms Starry LEE to speak and move the motion.

PROPOSED RESOLUTION TO EXTEND THE PERIOD FOR AMENDING SUBSIDIARY LEGISLATION (L.N. 206 OF 2020)

MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, I move that the motion under my name, as detailed on the Agenda, be passed.

At the meeting of the House Committee on 23 October 2020, Members decided to form a subcommittee to study the Census and Statistics (2021 Population Census) Order. In order to provide the Subcommittee with more time for scrutiny, I move on behalf of the Subcommittee that the scrutiny period of the subsidiary legislation be extended to 9 December 2020.

President, I urge Members to support this motion.

Ms Starry LEE moved the following motion:

"RESOLVED that in relation to the Census and Statistics (2021 Population Census) Order, published in the Gazette as Legal Notice No. 206 of 2020, and laid on the table of the Legislative Council on 21 October 2020, the period for amending subsidiary legislation referred to in section 34(2) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap. 1) be extended under section 34(4) of that Ordinance to the meeting of 9 December 2020."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Ms Starry LEE be passed. Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

1594 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Ms Starry LEE be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections. I declare the motion passed.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second motion: To extend the period for amending the Registration of Determinations and Orders of Public Interest Entities Auditors Review Tribunal Rules and the Registration of Orders of Insurance Appeals Tribunal Rules, which were laid on the Table of this Council on 21 October 2020.

(Mr WONG Ting-kwong is not present)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Since Mr WONG Ting-kwong is not present, this Council will not deal with this motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Third motion: To extend the period for amending the Prevention and Control of Disease (Prohibition on Group Gathering) (Amendment) (No. 12) Regulation 2020, which was laid on the Table of this Council on 21 October 2020.

I call upon Mrs Regina IP to speak and move the motion.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1595

PROPOSED RESOLUTION TO EXTEND THE PERIOD FOR AMENDING SUBSIDIARY LEGISLATION (L.N. 209 OF 2020)

MRS REGINA IP (in Cantonese): President, I move on behalf of the Subcommittee that the motion under my name, as printed on the Agenda, be passed.

At the meeting of the House Committee on 23 October 2020, Members agreed that the Prevention and Control of Disease (Prohibition on Group Gathering) (Amendment) (No. 12) Regulation 2020, which was laid on the Table of this Council on 21 October 2020, should be referred the Subcommittee on Subsidiary Legislation Relating to the Prevention and Control of Disease for consideration. In order to allow the Subcommittee sufficient time for scrutiny, I move on behalf of the Subcommittee that the amendment period of the subsidiary legislation be extended to the Council meeting of 9 December 2020.

President, I urge Members to support the motion.

Mrs Regina IP moved the following motion:

"RESOLVED that in relation to the Prevention and Control of Disease (Prohibition on Group Gathering) (Amendment) (No. 12) Regulation 2020, published in the Gazette as Legal Notice No. 209 of 2020, and laid on the table of the Legislative Council on 21 October 2020, the period for amending subsidiary legislation referred to in section 34(2) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap. 1) be extended under section 34(4) of that Ordinance to the meeting of 9 December 2020."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mrs Regina IP be passed. Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

1596 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mrs Regina IP be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections. I declare the motion passed.

MEMBERS' MOTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' motions.

Debate on motion with no legislative effect.

Mr Tommy CHEUNG will move a motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors".

Members who wish to speak please press the "Request to speak" button.

I now call upon Mr Tommy CHEUNG to speak and move the motion.

MOTION ON "FORMULATING A NEW MECHANISM FOR IMPORTING NON-LOCALLY TRAINED DOCTORS"

MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that the motion, as printed on the Agenda, be passed. President, as society restores calm, we should focus on solving livelihood issues. I drafted this motion in 2019, but it could not be discussed at the Legislative Council meeting until today due to the constant filibustering by the "mutual destruction camp". I want to reproach, in particular, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1597 some so-called former Members who are doctors and opposed the importation of doctors for various political reasons. They have completely ignored the grass roots and failed to meet the expectations of the electors of their geographical constituencies.

President, in the previous discussion on healthcare reform, we have noticed many problems and agreed that a multi-pronged approach must be adopted. Nevertheless, the importation of non-locally trained doctors cannot be achieved overnight. A mechanism must be formulated and implemented. Let me first cite the latest figures. As at October 2020, the Hospital Authority ("HA") has recruited four non-local doctors by way of limited registration, three of which were new applications and one was a renewal. They serve the departments of anesthesiology, ophthalmology and paediatrics respectively.

It is an indisputable fact that there is a shortage of doctors in Hong Kong. The question is how many are lacking. According to HA, there is a cumulative shortfall of around 260 doctors. In the long run, there will be a shortfall of 500 to 600 doctors by 2036 despite the supply of medical graduates. Is this the answer? In fact, it depends on how the Administration does the calculation. This figure is based on the assumption that the current waiting time for healthcare services will remain the same or be allowed to get worse, that is, the consultation time for about 80% of public hospital patients will last less than 10 minutes and the waiting time for semi-urgent patients will be as long as 114 minutes, which is more than double of that in Singapore. As for the waiting time for specialist services, 10% of new patients waiting for orthopaedics or ophthalmology specialist outpatient services have to wait nearly two years for their first consultation and the waiting time is getting longer and longer. Is this situation acceptable to the public?

In 2017, there were 1.9 doctors for every 1 000 people in Hong Kong. The ratio is lower than that in many advanced or developed regions. Hong Kong needs about 3 400 additional doctors to catch up with the ratio in Singapore, which is 2.4 doctors for every 1 000 people. If we have to meet the standard set by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development ("OECD"), which is 3.4 doctors for every 1 000 people, we will need 10 000 additional doctors. As a matter of fact, the public healthcare system in Hong Kong is on the verge of collapse and its structural imbalance is aggravating. In 2017, only less than half (46%) of the doctors in Hong Kong worked in the public healthcare system, yet the latter covered about 90% of the inpatient services in Hong Kong. 1598 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

The main reason can be traced back to September 1996 when the arrangement permitting overseas-trained doctors from six selected Commonwealth countries to practise in Hong Kong examination-free was abolished, resulting in a sharp decline in the new supply of doctors every year. An average of 200 doctors have been imported to Hong Kong annually through this channel from 1990 to 1995, accounting for about 42% of the new supply of doctors every year. However, after the abolition of the policy, only 457 overseas-trained doctors have been permitted to practise in Hong Kong in the past 22 years (from 1997 to 2018), accounting for merely 3% of the total number of doctors in Hong Kong as at the end of 2018. The number of overseas doctors has dropped sharply from 200 annually to some 200 in 10 years. Thus, the supply of doctors has fallen far short of the demand arising from the growth and ageing of Hong Kong's population.

The Liberal Party has noticed the above problems for years and has been suggesting that the Government should import more overseas doctors. In recent years, we have proposed to combine the Singapore model and the existing limited registration, so that the specialist qualifications of non-locally registered doctors who graduated from medical schools in world-renowned universities or have practised in highly qualified overseas hospitals may be recognized by the Hong Kong Academy of Medicine after having worked in Hong Kong's public healthcare system for five years or above and may be granted full registration without the need for examinations or internships. The Liberal Party also suggests that they should be free to choose to practise in the public or private healthcare markets in Hong Kong afterwards.

I understand that Members have different views on ways to import non-locally trained doctors, which may not be the same as the proposal of the Liberal Party, but we remain open-minded. As stated in today's original motion, the principle is to formulate a new mechanism for importing experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors to alleviate the shortage of doctors in the public healthcare system and respond to the demand for healthcare services arising from the ageing population in Hong Kong.

President, examination-free admission of overseas doctors is nothing new at all. It has been implemented for a long time in Australia and the United Kingdom, in addition to Singapore. Examination-free admission has more than 30 years of history in Singapore and Australia. In May last year, I commissioned the Research Office of the Legislative Council Secretariat to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1599 conduct an in-depth study on the situations in Singapore and Australia. The study indicated that examination-free admission is actually feasible. Here, I would like to thank the Legislative Council Secretariat.

We should know that many advanced places are also being challenged by the shortage of healthcare manpower in the face of the ageing population. Studies indicate that the total number of overseas-trained doctors in OECD countries has increased by 37% in eight years, showing a strong demand for overseas doctors in advanced places. The ratios of overseas-trained doctors in some member countries are even higher. For example, they account for 34% in New Zealand, 40% in Norway, 33% in Australia, 28% in the United Kingdom and 25% in the United States.

In fact, the major concern is whether quality can be assured. The examples of Singapore and Australia demonstrated that the introduction of examination-free admission did not lower the quality of local healthcare. From 1990 to 2017, the Singapore Medical Council received 8 to 17 complaints per 1 000 doctors. The figure remained stable, indicating that employing more overseas-trained doctors had minimal impact on the quality of healthcare services in Singapore.

Indeed, overseas-trained doctors from some developing places reportedly have received more complaints than local doctors in Australia. But overall, complaints lodged against all doctors ranged from 54 to 82 cases per 1 000 practising doctors from 2010 to 2017, bearing no direct relationship with the rising number of overseas-trained doctors. In any case, our discussion should not be limited to whether or not exemptions are allowed, but how to formulate an examination-free mechanism to ensure the quality of doctors exempted from examinations. The design of the mechanism is of paramount importance.

Basically, two barriers have been set in Singapore: first, only doctors graduated from a number of specified recognized overseas medical schools can be taken into consideration; and second, they have to go through supervised practice for two to four years under the supervision of senior doctors approved by the Singapore Medical Council. Overseas-trained doctors with satisfactory assessment result during the supervision period may then be considered for full registration.

1600 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

In Australia, registrations are categorized into general registration and specialist registration. For general registration, only doctors who passed medical assessments in the five selected places (i.e. the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, New Zealand and Ireland) can be considered. They may apply for general registration after passing a pre-employment structured clinical interview and completing a one-year supervised practice. Overseas-trained doctors already having overseas specialist qualifications are assessed by relevant specialist colleges in Australia directly to ensure that the qualifications are comparable to that in Australia. They may be recommended for specialist registration subject to either one-year peer review period or a two-year supervised practice with further assessments.

As can be observed from the experience in the two places, the mechanism consists of two basic elements: first, setting a scope of admission comparable to the local healthcare level; and second, imposing supervision-based mechanism that requires satisfactory performance in practice under supervision for a specified period of time in order to be eligible for full registration. This well demonstrates that examination-free admission does not necessarily sacrifice quality.

In fact, many supplementary measures can be added. For example, the Singaporean Government has pledged to give priority to local medical graduates for new medical positions, with overseas-trained doctors playing a supporting role only. Besides, there are incentive schemes to encourage Singaporeans students to return to their home country for practice upon graduation from overseas medical schools. In Australia, 10 years of service are required for doctors to turn to private practice, except in remote and severely under-staffed places.

President, the examination system has its limitations. The Licensing Examination of the Medical Council of Hong Kong ("MCHK"), in particular, has attracted a lot of criticisms because the examination covers the syllabus of the five-year local medicine programme and thus is more favourable to new doctors or fresh medical graduates who have a fresh memory. Contrarily, many overseas specialist doctors have many years of practice experience, but have become unfamiliar with knowledge unrelated to their specialist areas. Hence, it is unreasonable to ask them to study and sit the examination for local medicine programme, and will thus greatly discourage them from coming to work in Hong Kong. As I have said before, if we ask the well-known Dr Gabriel CHOI to take LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1601 the current DSE ("Diploma of Secondary Education Examination"), will he get a pass? If not, does it mean he cannot be a doctor?

The current Licensing Examination comprises three parts, namely the Examination in Professional Knowledge, the Proficiency Test in Medical English and the Clinical Examination. The contents are very difficult and broad. The first part, the Examination in Professional Knowledge, alone covers the entire syllabus of the five-year local medicine programme, including medicine, surgery, paediatrics, psychiatry, medical ethics, etc. While many overseas specialist doctors often have rich practice experience, they may have become unfamiliar with knowledge unrelated to their specialist areas. It is unreasonable to ask them to study and sit the examination for local medicine programmes. As a matter of fact, the pass rate of Part I of the Examination in Professional Knowledge as an "admission ticket" has remained very low, ranging from 11% to 34% in the past five years. Since MCHK introduced the Licensing Examination in 1996, the highest pass rate for Part I was 36% in 2013.

A new mechanism is necessary because the existing examination system alone cannot meet the demands in Hong Kong and pushes the public healthcare system to the verge of collapse. We must break down the barriers of protectionism and improve the healthcare system comprising a strong private sector and weak public sector in preparation for the ageing Hong Kong society. Otherwise, it will become a major hidden risk to the well-being of the people.

I implore Honourable colleagues to support my motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors". President, I so submit.

Mr Tommy CHEUNG moved the following motion: (Translation)

"That this Council urges the Government to expeditiously formulate a new mechanism for importing experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors, so as to alleviate the shortage of doctors in the public healthcare system and effectively respond to the demand for healthcare services arising from an ageing population in Hong Kong."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Tommy CHEUNG's motion be passed.

1602 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I am very grateful to Mr Tommy CHEUNG for moving this motion, expressing his concern about the manpower problem of doctors in Hong Kong and putting forward some suggestions for solving the manpower problem. In fact, like all Members, the Government is very anxious about the acute shortage of doctors in Hong Kong nowadays, and we are making every effort to retain doctors and increase manpower in the public healthcare system through various means.

In addressing the manpower problem of doctors, I would like to elaborate on various measures of the Government in three areas, namely "local supply", "HA's initiatives" and "MCHK's initiatives". First, in respect of "local supply", the Government has substantially increased the medical training places funded by the University Grants Committee ("UGC") over the past decade, representing an increase of 90%. The Government will also continue to increase the training places for local healthcare professionals and will provide all resources needed. In the 2019-2022 UGC triennium, the Government has increased the funded medical training places by 60 per annum. Besides, to ensure a steady supply of healthcare manpower in the long run, the Government is conducting a new round of manpower projection exercise which is expected to be completed by end of this year or early next year. Depending on the results of the manpower projection exercise, the Government will consider whether to further increase the number of medical training places in the next UGC triennium.

In addition, we will implement a series of measures in the Hospital Authority ("HA"). HA will recruit all qualified local medical graduates and offer them a nine-year contract with relevant specialist training. It is expected that in the next five years, a total of over 2 000 medical graduates will become registered doctors.

On the other hand, HA will explore the enhancement of the Special Retired and Rehire Scheme with a view to encouraging more experienced doctors to continue serving in HA on contract terms upon retirement until the age of 65. It will also provide serving doctors with more promotion and training opportunities, as well as an improved working environment, so as to retain talents through various measures.

We understand that it is not enough to solely rely on local supply and retention of talents, and that we have to also consider different measures to encourage non-locally trained doctors to come to practise in Hong Kong's public healthcare sector. We need outside help. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1603

Over the past few years, the Medical Council of Hong Kong ("MCHK") has introduced various improvement measures and new measures to help qualified non-locally trained doctors obtain full registration in Hong Kong, including increasing the frequency of the Licensing Examination from once to twice a year starting from 2014, and revising certain exemption requirements for the Licensing Examination.

Moreover, the Medical Registration (Amendment) Ordinance 2018 passed in March 2018 has extended the validity period and renewal period of limited registration from not exceeding one year to not exceeding three years; coupled with HA's enhancement of the promotion opportunities for doctors with limited registration, it is believed that more qualified non-locally trained doctors will be willing to serve in Hong Kong. In the past two years, I have also visited the United Kingdom and Australia to encourage more qualified non-locally trained doctors to practise in Hong Kong, and students from Hong Kong responded very positively. The Government will continue to work proactively with the Economic and Trade Offices outside Hong Kong to promote and publicize the limited registration arrangement in overseas countries.

The Food and Health Bureau set up a platform in March 2019 and invited major stakeholders of the medical sector, including the representatives from MCHK, the Hong Kong Academy of Medicine, the Hong Kong Medical Association, two medical schools, the Department of Health and HA, to draw on collective wisdom and discuss various feasible means to increase the manpower of doctors. We will continue to utilize this platform to follow up on other means of increasing the manpower of doctors.

President, the Government concurs that it should continue to actively explore different approaches to alleviate the manpower shortage of doctors in the public healthcare system. I would like to listen to Members' views before giving a further response in my concluding remarks. Thank you, President.

MR LAU KWOK-FAN (in Cantonese): President, I support Mr Tommy CHEUNG's motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors".

1604 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

All along, the general public of Hong Kong have encountered difficulties in getting medical treatment. The waiting time of semi-urgent cases for accident and emergency services at public hospitals increased drastically by 75% to 114 minutes between 2008 and 2018, but in reality it might be even longer. The situation of public specialist outpatient services is even more acute. According to the figures provided by the Hospital Authority, compared to 2010-2011, the current average longest waiting time of new stable cases for specialist outpatient services has increased by 85.1% for the Specialty of Ear, Nose, Throat, 131.4% for the Specialty of Medicine, 52.9% for the Specialty of Eye, and 65.5% for the Specialty of Psychiatry. Take the medicine specialist outpatient clinics in the New Territories East as an example, the longest waiting time of new stable cases is 133 weeks, that is, almost three years―Secretary, three years―and putting ourselves in others' shoes, if we feel unwell and require medical treatment but we have to wait for three years, I wonder how Members would feel? In addition to anger and resentment, would Members feel despair as well? This is what the general public experience and feel when they seek medical treatment at public hospitals in everyday life.

Why is it so difficult to get medical treatment? As pointed out by Mr Tommy CHEUNG just now―the reason is known to almost everyone in Hong Kong―this is due to a desperate manpower shortage of doctors in the public healthcare sector. Statistics show that as at end of 2018, there were altogether 14 651 registered doctors in Hong Kong, of which 54% and 46% worked in the private and public healthcare sectors respectively, but the latter had to cater for about 90% of local inpatient services. While the overall number of doctors in Hong Kong had increased by 45% between 2000 and 2018, it still lagged behind the 74% growth in elderly population aged 65 and above; moreover, the hospitalization rate of the elderly reached 26%, almost four times that of the non-elderly, and their outpatient demand was about twice that of the non-elderly. All these have undoubtedly aggravated the current situation.

Worse still, according to the projections of the Census and Statistics Department, by 2036, one in three persons will be an elderly. In the Report of the Strategic Review on Healthcare Manpower Planning and Professional Development ("the Report") published in 2017, the Government projected that there would be a shortfall of 1 007 doctors in Hong Kong by 2030; and as a matter of fact, the society generally believes that the situation of the manpower shortage should be far more severe than that projected in the Report. Therefore, to address such problems as the manpower shortage and rising attrition rate of doctors, the Government has indeed taken some measures, such as increasing the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1605 number of medical graduates, improving salaries and promotion prospects, and providing flexible work arrangements. However, it can be seen from the waiting time for outpatient services that the effect of these improvement measures is negligible.

Under this circumstance, if the pool of doctors is to be expanded to ameliorate the plight arising from the shortage of practising doctors in Hong Kong, apart from increasing the places for local medical students, consideration should certainly be given to attracting external talents and bringing in more qualified non-locally trained doctors. At present, the Medical Council of Hong Kong provides limited registration under the Medical Registration Ordinance to attract non-locally trained doctors to serve in Hong Kong. Moreover, in response to the demand of various sectors of society, the validity period of limited registration was extended from not exceeding one year to not exceeding three years in 2018. However, the result is not satisfactory. According to statistics, while overseas-trained doctors ("OTDs") accounted for some 25% of the overall doctor supply in Hong Kong in 2018, most of them were admitted before 1996, and those admitted between 1997 and 2018 represented just 4% of the total doctor supply in 2018.

This could be attributable to a low pass rate in the Licensing Examination. For the period between 1996 and 2018, only 457 OTDs managed to pass all three component examinations and internship assessment, representing a mere 3% of the overall doctor supply in Hong Kong in 2018. In terms of the number of attempts, only an average of 5% of candidates could pass all three component examinations in a single attempt. Hence, there is a need to change this system.

Given our examination-based entry system, coupled with a limited registration valid for up to three years, OTDs have really been deterred by these numerous restrictions. Although there is also a shortage of doctors in such places as Singapore and Australia, they have adopted the effective approach of expanding their pool of doctors by bringing in non-locally trained doctors, so as to ameliorate the difficulties in getting medical treatment. Therefore, I hope the Government will review some of the existing systems.

Due to time constraint, I very much hope that the Government will hear the plight of members of the public in getting medical treatment. In fact, government officials only need to check the waiting time or ask the people at any 1606 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 public hospital and they can fully understand people's helplessness and anger. I hope the Secretary will, after listening to our speeches today, take a bold and decisive move to somehow reform the healthcare system.

President, I so submit. Thank you.

MRS REGINA IP (in Cantonese): President, I rise to speak in support of Mr Tommy CHEUNG's motion. To begin with, inadequate healthcare services is an issue of deep concern among the people of Hong Kong. Second, the wording of Mr CHEUNG's motion is actually very cautious. He just urges the Government to expeditiously formulate a new mechanism for importing experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors, so as to alleviate the shortage of doctors in the public healthcare system and effectively respond to problems such as the demand for healthcare services arising from an ageing population in Hong Kong. I think Mr CHEUNG's first step is merely to import experienced and qualified doctors to serve in the public sector. He is also afraid of being accused of affecting the "rice bowl" of private doctors, a point which we fully understand as well.

I believe all the people in Hong Kong, except for some doctors, will approve of such an initiative if it can lead to a significant increase in the number of doctors. While Mr CHEUNG has put forward some figures just now, President, I have on hand a report titled "Health System Capacity Constraints―The Severe Shortage of Doctors in Hong Kong Public Hospitals" published by the think tank Our Hong Kong Foundation, which is well worth sharing. According to the report, there were 14 290 fully registered doctors in Hong Kong in 2017, serving 7.4 million people. I have looked up the latest figures, there were only 14 651 doctors in Hong Kong last year, an increase of just a few hundred. The ratio remains at having 1.9 doctors for every 1 000 people. This number is far below the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development ("OECD") average of 3.4. Hong Kong needs an addition of 10 000 doctors to catch up with the OECD level. The ratio of Singapore is 2.4, which means Hong Kong has to import 3 300 doctors immediately in order to be on par with Singapore.

Mr CHEUNG has also mentioned in his speech earlier that public hospitals in Hong Kong are now providing fairly good services as people can receive healthcare services without paying hefty fees, but the waiting time is too long, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1607 especially that for specialist services. For instance, people have to wait for a long time for the first consultation at the ophthalmology departments to receive diagnosis and treatment. One of my party comrades is a psychiatrist of the Hospital Authority. He is terribly busy at work as he needs to treat 50 patients before lunch time, each for only 15 minutes, and then the patients have to wait half a year for a follow-up appointment. How can the patients get proper medical treatment if they are mentally ill?

President, you may also know that Hong Kong people have a very long life expectancy. Many of my classmates are around my age, a lot of them are suffering from chronic diseases such as high blood pressure, diabetes or bone and knee problems, and all of them have to seek consultation from specialist doctors. Moreover, patients are suffering from these chronic diseases at a younger age, and many young people also suffer from problems such as high blood pressure and excessive uric acid. It is very expensive for them to see a specialist. Therefore, both the grass roots and the middle class have relayed to me the problems of inadequate healthcare services and shortage of doctors in Hong Kong. I have received a lot of complaints as well. The Secretary has indicated that the places for medical students will be increased in a gradual manner. Nevertheless, "distant water cannot put out a fire nearby" since it takes several years to train up a medical student to the most fundamental and elementary level, and it takes a long time to train up an experienced and quality specialist.

Furthermore, many former Secretaries have said in the past―except for the incumbent Secretary who has not made such remarks because she is a woman―that women account for half of the medical students at the universities nowadays, and female students are the best. However, they would, after being trained up as a specialist, resign and stay at home or merely work on a part-time basis. They are unwilling to take up the job even if we want to re-employ them, thereby resulting in a serious brain drain. This being so, it is still useless to even increase the doctor training places by 1 000, as only 500 doctors may remain in service in the end. Therefore, the Secretary must give some thoughts to this issue.

The amendments to the Medical Registration Ordinance have recently been passed in Hong Kong. Yet, these amendments are too trivial and only serve to extend the contract for doctors with limited registration from one year to three years, after which it will be renewed for another three years. The figures presented to us by the Secretary just now reveal that the number of people 1608 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 employed is very small. Why does this happen in Hong Kong? As Mr Tommy CHEUNG said, there used to be 200 Commonwealth doctors coming to Hong Kong every year, but now there are only 200 in 10 years. There is indeed some sort of "protective barrier" in Hong Kong. After the transfer of sovereignty in 1997, a study was conducted on how the accreditation system―that is, the recognition of professional qualifications―should be modified to dovetail with our return to the Motherland. As a result, all those Commonwealth doctors are no longer allowed to practise in Hong Kong unless they have passed an examination.

I have discussed with many doctors and they regarded sitting for an examination as a fair deal, and the United States ("US") also requires Hong Kong doctors to pass an examination. However, the passing rate of the Licensing Examination in Hong Kong is extremely low. According to the report of the Our Hong Kong Foundation, only 7.49% of the doctors practising in Hong Kong are registered through the Licensing Examination in 2017, compared to nearly 25% in the US. That is to say, it is more difficult to obtain the licensing qualification in Hong Kong than in the US. The Secretary should also know that there are many good doctors in foreign countries, but we have also heard some doctors expressing their worries in the Legislative Council that there would be a floodgate effect, so Mainland doctors should not be allowed to practise in Hong Kong because they do not speak English and their medical standard is low. There are so many reasons to resist them, which are discriminatory. First of all, is the standard of Mainland doctors low? Now that Mainland China has been so successful in fighting the epidemic, more so than the rest of the world, are Mainland doctors of a low standard? Let us be fair and more objective.

Second, if English proficiency is a must, why can Commonwealth doctors and those from US and Canada who used to be allowed to practise in Hong Kong, no longer do so now? Many distinguished specialists who have received training at Harvard University are not allowed to practise in Hong Kong. The Secretary should know an organization called the North American Medical Association, which is composed of doctors graduated from first-class medical schools in North America. Yet, they cannot practise in Hong Kong. They can only practise with limited registration. Therefore, I really urge the Secretary (The buzzer sounded) …

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1609

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Regina IP, please stop speaking.

MR HOLDEN CHOW (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of Mr Tommy CHEUNG's motion. The long-standing shortage of doctors in Hong Kong has led to the long waiting time for healthcare services. The issue has all along been a cause of complaint.

(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MS STARRY LEE, took the Chair)

Over a long period of time in the past, a number of colleagues from the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong and I have proposed that a more efficient mechanism should be put in place for bringing in qualified overseas doctors to provide services in Hong Kong in order to alleviate the shortage of doctors.

Deputy President, in respect of the ratio of overseas doctors in some other places, we have looked up some information, including the research conducted by the Legislative Council Secretariat on this subject, which shows that overseas doctors accounted for 33% of the total number of doctors in Australia and 42% in New Zealand in 2016. Moreover, according to the experience of some overseas regions, the admission of non-local doctors can alleviate many problems. For instance, the United States and Canada have brought in doctors from other places to practise in rural areas. We can thus see that the introduction of non-local doctors to alleviate the shortage of local doctors is nothing new.

Deputy President, according to the statistics provided by the Legislative Council Secretariat, it is estimated that there will possibly be a shortfall of 1 000 doctors by 2030 based on the current trend. Therefore, we have to make more efforts to substantially increase the supply of doctors in order to meet future healthcare demand and deal with the ageing population. However, based on the figures, local doctors and future graduates of local medical schools seem hardly sufficient to cope with the shortage in the future. For example, statistics showed that, as of 2018, there were two doctors for every 1 000 people. The figure is much lower than that in some places, such as Australia where there are 3.7 doctors for every 1 000 people. The standard set by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development ("OECD") is 3.4 doctors per 1 000 1610 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 people. Hence, Deputy President, the ratio in Hong Kong, that is, two doctors per 1 000 people, lags far behind that in other places and the international standard set by OECD.

Deputy President, we may draw reference from some measures taken by neighbouring regions such as Singapore where a more proactive attitude is adopted. According to statistics, there are 2.4 doctors per 1 000 people in Singapore, which is higher than that in Hong Kong. The reason is that, in addition to training local doctors, Singapore is more proactive in importing non-local doctors. Moreover, overseas doctors account for 53% of the newly registered doctors in Singapore, showing that proactive responses and measures are actually available.

Deputy President, based on Mr Tommy CHEUNG's speech, I reckon that we are not here today to decide how the mechanism should work. Instead, we are here to, at the very least, come up with a direction that we all agree on and devise a mechanism to permit qualified non-local doctors to practise in Hong Kong. In Singapore, for example, the definition of qualified overseas doctors is to first list the recognized overseas medical schools, including those in Commonwealth countries. Doctors graduated from these recognized overseas or Commonwealth medical schools with sufficient clinical experience may practise in Singapore examination-free. Doctors graduated from recognized overseas medical schools without clinical experience may first practise under temporary registration in Singapore and then obtain full registration after completion of a one-year internship in public hospitals.

Deputy President, we can see that these two measures alone have enabled doctors or medical graduates from overseas countries, such as the United Kingdom, Australia and Canada to practise in Singapore. Evidently, these measures can help alleviate the shortage of doctors there.

Deputy President, I have often heard some people oppose the admission of overseas doctors mainly because of concerns about quality. However, as we can see, the quality and standard of many overseas places and medical schools can definitely be assured. I do not see why doctors with international recognized qualifications cannot practise in Hong Kong to alleviate our shortage. The waiting time in many public hospitals is far too long. The public will ultimately suffer if this problem is left unsolved in the long run. I hope the Government can give us a positive response.

Deputy President, I so submit.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1611

MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I speak in support of the motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors" proposed by Mr Tommy CHEUNG today. As we all know, in order to seek medical consultation in public hospitals, members of the public have to wait for at least two to four hours or as long as seven to eight hours. This is a problem that the public encounter every day. A reason for it is a shortage of healthcare workers, the causes of which are multi-faceted.

First, according to the statistics of the Hospital Authority ("HA"), the annual attrition rate of doctors in public hospitals is not low. At present, there are 6 700 doctors but over the years, the attrition rate is about 4% to 6.5%, and we can see that in 2018-2019, the figure reached its peak at 6.5%. Therefore, such an attrition rate is also a cause of a shortage of doctors. As a result of over 300 doctors leaving HA each year, as pointed out by Mr Tommy CHEUNG in asking a question last year, the shortage of specialists is even more acute in public hospitals as the attrition rates of such specialties as Clinical Oncology, Anaesthesia and Family Medicine are even higher, ranging from 5% to 10%. This is why we directly-elected Members, in particular, have often heard the public complain about a lack of doctors and the excessively long waiting time at hospitals. The public have very strong views about all this.

The influenza surge every year even greatly adds to the burden on hospitals, with doctors being overloaded with work and nurses feeling very aggrieved. As a result, the morale of the healthcare sector has been very low. Such being the case, the failure of the Government to put forward long-term solutions to the problem will indeed put the problem-plagued healthcare sector in Hong Kong under considerable strain. I must say that when oral questions were raised this morning, we mentioned that some people had staged a strike amidst the COVID-19 epidemic probably because they, driven by pent-up grievances, wanted to take the opportunity to flex their political muscles. Despite that this is about political strength, obviously we can see that the reasons are multi-faceted.

The ratio of healthcare workers is actually on the low side in Hong Kong. Earlier on some colleagues already mentioned this point. Let me briefly cite an example or two. In Hong Kong, we have only 1.9 doctors per 1 000 population. Compared with the neighbouring regions, such as Japan, which has the highest ratio, has 2.5 doctors; Singapore has a slightly lower ratio, with 2.4 doctors and yet, it is still far higher than ours. Therefore, we must not allow the situation to go on like this. Now the Government has pointed out that in recent years, an 1612 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 average of 60 doctors are trained to join the healthcare sector after graduation. But in view of the current ratio of 1.9 doctors, how can these 60 doctors be of any help to solve the problem? This figure actually cannot catch up with the attrition rate.

It is impossible for the supply of local medical students to meet the demand but some organizations strongly oppose the importation of doctors from overseas or places outside Hong Kong to solve the problem. There is indeed very strong protectionism among some members of the healthcare sector. They are worried that they would become unemployed after more doctors are imported. In fact, their worries are not warranted because the ratio in Hong Kong is only 1.9 doctors. They would not become unemployed even if the ratio is 2.4 doctors, let alone 1.9 doctors. I think these people are protecting themselves purely for ideological reasons and particularly when it comes to Mainland doctors, they are even more vigorous in putting up opposition. While they dared not say that Mainland doctors would be of no help to Hong Kong society, they argued that these doctors were not up to standard and accused HA of importing them indiscriminately to the detriment of the citizens. These remarks are entirely indicative of they lack confidence in their own capabilities. They put forward these views to the Government because they lack confidence in themselves, and this is why they are opposed to the importation of overseas doctors by the Government.

In fact, from the end of 2015 to 2016, due to the opposition of Dr LEUNG Ka-lau who adopted the approach of requesting headcounts, the bill proposed to reform the Medical Council of Hong Kong and extend the period of stay for overseas doctors was negatived. Even though the bill was subsequently passed in 2016, it was far from inadequate and not of much help. Therefore, I think the new mechanism proposed to be established by Mr Tommy CHEUNG as a solution to the shortage of manpower in the healthcare sector in Hong Kong is very important. I think the Government should, in the light of the views put forward by Members in this debate, conduct a review afresh and formulate a new mechanism which can provide assurance to the public and enable healthcare workers to have confidence in themselves, so that we can increase manpower in the healthcare sector under such difficult circumstances and hence expeditiously resolve the healthcare problem in Hong Kong.

I so submit. Thank you.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1613

MR CHAN KIN-POR (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the difficulty in getting medical treatment in Hong Kong has been a major problem in society. There are always long queues at public hospitals, leaving patients miserable. Even if they can see a doctor, they only have a very short consultation and so there is no way they can receive in-depth treatment. New cases for specialist outpatient services often have to wait for one to two years, and frontline doctors are even rushed off their feet. There is a consensus that Hong Kong faces a shortage of doctors, which is also supported by clear statistics.

Since Mr Tommy CHEUNG has already talked about many issues relating to the ratio just now, I am not going to repeat them. In a nutshell, the ratio of doctors in Hong Kong is very low. To catch up with the level in Singapore or South Korea, a shortfall of at least 3 000 to 4 000 doctors will have to be met. In the future, there will be an even greater healthcare demand in Hong Kong. According to the statistics of the Census and Statistics Department, the population aged 65 and above will grow from 1.16 million in 2016 to 2.37 million in 2036, leading to a drastic increase in the healthcare demand. On the other hand, the Government has earmarked HK$300 billion for the second 10-year Hospital Development Plan to construct more hospitals, including redeveloping the Queen Mary Hospital and the Tuen Mun Hospital, constructing a new hospital at the current site of the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, and expanding the North Lantau Hospital, and it is estimated that an addition of 4 000 beds will be provided. However, even if new beds are available, they will be useless if there are insufficient doctors. Therefore, judging from various perspectives, Hong Kong is really in dire need of more doctors.

Although the Government has stepped up the training of doctors by offering 500 places for medical students each year, the Hospital Authority ("HA") is losing nearly 400 doctors each year, most of whom have switched to the private healthcare system. This, coupled with the fact that doctors will retire, the supply of doctors is still unable to meet the healthcare demand. Besides, those medical graduates need to undergo a long period of training and accumulate sufficient experience to be able to work independently. Therefore, even if they can fill the vacancies of departed doctors in terms of quantity, they are, in practice, unlikely to replace experienced doctors in terms of quality.

Last year, the Medical Council of Hong Kong ("MCHK") discussed the proposal to exempt the internship arrangement of overseas specialists. Despite a barrage of criticisms in society, only a very conservative proposal was passed eventually, that is, overseas doctors may obtain full registration as long as they 1614 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 have worked in HA, the Department of Health or medical schools of universities under limited registration for three years and have passed the Licensing Examination. This proposal basically holds little appeal. It is indeed quite absurd to require an overseas specialist not only to work in public hospitals for three years but also to pass the Licensing Examination. This is because, despite having worked for three years already, he is asked to take a step backward and sit for the Licensing Examination. MCHK used "professional autonomy" as a justification but in fact, it was all about professional protectionism, which is aimed at refusing to open the door for doctors to practise, so that overseas doctors will be deterred from doing so by the difficulties they face. However, I would like to remind Members that this is not just about the professional sector, but also about the well-being of all the people of Hong Kong. The well-being of the Hong Kong people is definitely more important than the interests of the sector. The medical sector cannot just care about its interests and disregard the well-being of our people. Since the medical sector emphasizes professional autonomy, it must shoulder its professional responsibilities, including ensuring that all Hong Kong people receive appropriate healthcare services. The current shortage of doctors has given rise to a lot of problems. If the medical sector fails to resolve the problems, it should listen to our views.

In fact, we can learn from many successful examples, such as the Singapore Model under which the world's leading medical schools are included in its recognized list and their graduates are allowed to have examination-free practice in Singapore. Such a system has been implemented in Singapore for over a decade without any problem and is still in force today. Since the medical schools on the list are all of the world's top standards, it is believed that the standards of their graduates are not inferior to those in Hong Kong. If we want to have sufficient assurance, we can also follow the practice of Singapore, that is, overseas doctors have to practise medicine under supervision in public hospitals for a certain period of time before they are allowed to practise privately. This can assure that nothing will go wrong. Some people say that this suggestion is tantamount to leaving the door wide open. Nevertheless, Singapore has proved that this system can be expanded or tightened. Last year, the Ministry of Health of Singapore announced that due to an increase in the number of local medical graduates, it decided to have the list of recognized schools narrowed down drastically from the originally recognized 158 medical schools to 100. This shows that the recognized list is in the hands of the Singaporean Government and can be expanded or shortened when necessary. There is no question of the extension being unretractable.

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Not only do we need to recruit overseas doctors, but also have to offer excellent conditions of service. As a matter of fact, it is by no means easy to attract overseas doctors to practise in Hong Kong. Given the huge demand for doctors all over the world, they need not worry about getting a job in their own countries, so why do they have to practise in Hong Kong? Besides, the social conflicts in Hong Kong have become rather complicated. To attract overseas doctors, we should offer generous terms and a very long-term contract, etc. I think that Hong Kong must solve the doctor shortage problem. As pointed out by the Secretary just now, Hong Kong needs outside help. I believe that in advancing this goal, the Secretary will encounter many obstacles. The Government must remain steadfast and dare to break down barriers in fighting for the well-being of the people. Thank you, President.

DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): The Member's motion now under discussion is on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors". Related topics have been discussed in recent years. Yet, with all due respect, I think the moving of this Member's motion at this very moment is somewhat like "looting a burning house". Is this an "importation" of new blood or a "replacement" exercise? The admission of the so-called non-locally trained doctors is nicely packaged as a solution to the so-called shortage of doctors in Hong Kong. As to whether this is true or not, I believe Members have heard it clearly from what I have just described. Is it true that there is a shortage of local doctors? I think this is highly debatable.

Nonetheless, irrespective of whether this statement is true or not, I will regard the motion as an act comparable to "looting a burning house", as I do not consider it an "importation" of new blood. I may even consider this a "replacement" exercise. Why do I say so? We have to clarify certain basic principles first. Certain Members from the pro-establishment camp pointed out just now that in the past, many doctors have seemingly set up the so-called professional barriers, often claiming that "Hong Kong doctors are professionals", which was in fact professional monopoly, and they were afraid of competition from overseas doctors. Mr LEUNG Che-cheung even called this "protectionism". Comments like these are wrong. Among the many professions in Hong Kong, I think the healthcare sector is the most important one which is a domestic or even local industry.

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Members may think that because doctors possess knowledge about the human body, and that physics or biology are more or less the same, the so-called practice of medicine or healthcare should be universal. This is a gross misunderstanding. In Hong Kong, certain specialties have emerged in response to certain local diseases developed in Hong Kong. In other words, knowledge learnt in medical schools, as well as what we called practice, is a naturally occurring system. From the language used in daily life, the language used between healthcare personnel and patients, to hospital culture, it cannot be ensured that an overseas doctor have grasped all these by merely a single examination. Examination is a basic requirement which merely means passing the assessment threshold. Otherwise, what is point of internship?

This basic principle may provoke a lot of rebuttals, as with the examination or previous reforms. Yet, as a basic understanding, I think Members should be clear about one point, that is, the comment that doctors and healthcare workers are "protectionists" is definitely wrong. Healthcare services are provided in response to the specific living environment, custom and habits, such as the food consumed, of local people and the people of Hong Kong. I believe Members should know that due to the love of fatty and fried food in the past, it is said that hepatic diseases have been particularly prevalent here. These specialties are found on a solid foundation with a long medical history. Hence, first, regarding the comment of Members from the pro-establishment camp that healthcare workers in Hong Kong are "protectionists", it seems to be correct from the perspective of the so-called professional barriers in the past or that of the general public. Yet, nowadays, I consider it not entirely reasonable or even wrong to make such a comment.

Back to the issue concerning the basic reality which I have raised earlier: Is there a shortage of doctors in Hong Kong? The number of doctors in the public healthcare system, i.e. public hospitals, in Hong Kong is definitely inadequate. Why? It is not a shortage of doctors in absolute numbers or in comparison with the ratio of other countries. This should be attributed to the poor conditions here, which is evident from the oral question raised this morning. Of course, it is debatable whether or not they should put on a strike. Yet, the healthcare sector did so out of good intentions. Nonetheless, Members have spent the whole morning on criticizing doctors who had taken part in the strike. Doctors in the public healthcare sector can be described as having worked themselves into the ground. Although the so-called remuneration package of the public healthcare sector in Hong Kong is relatively decent in comparison with other LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1617 countries, the healthcare workers in Hong Kong are now not merely facing a poor environment and system in public hospitals, as well as corruption in the Hospital Authority ("HA"), and even political reckoning.

Deputy President, against this background, it is more than reasonable that there is a shortage of doctors in the public healthcare sector. Yet, does it mean that there is a shortage of doctors in Hong Kong? If non-local doctors are brought in but they are restricted to working under HA, this is something we may consider. Nonetheless, it is not entirely correct. Why? This would mean that the poor, that is, the grass roots, would have to use second-class healthcare benefits and I am sure of that. What do non-local doctors want to do in Hong Kong? The situation in the past few years has revealed the reality. After working in the public healthcare sector for a few years as a sanitization period, they will switch to private practice. Why? Let me repeat, it is because of the poor environment of the public sector.

In that case, will the admission of non-locally trained doctors address the shortage of doctors in the public healthcare sector? Given the existing culture and system in Hong Kong, the answer is definitely in the negative. Hence, I would say that though the motion is about "importation" of new blood on the surface, but if the system and mechanism remain unchanged, and given the present political environment in Hong Kong, it will definitely be a "replacement" exercise. Besides, after the epidemic, which country will have enough doctors? Even the United Kingdom is asking for help. If it is now proposed to open the door to bring in non-locally trained doctors, to whom is it opening for? It is definitely the healthcare workers from the Mainland. Hence, this is a motion "looting a burning house".

I so submit.

MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I think that Dr CHENG Chung-tai should return from his Mars to Earth. He can certainly refer to the figures in my speech on the lack of doctors.

Deputy President, the recent surge of Coronavirus Disease 2019 cases in various countries has driven their healthcare workers and healthcare systems to the verge of collapse. When it comes to Hong Kong, we have heard more than once in recent months that the healthcare system in Hong Kong is in danger of 1618 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 collapse. Fortunately, thanks to a generally high level of anti-epidemic awareness on the part of our people, and support from our country in developing a temporary hospital and conducting universal community testing, the epidemic is under control, but we shall by no means relax our vigilance. To prevent our healthcare system from collapsing in an instant, we must expeditiously sort out and address in an orderly and effective way weaknesses in our healthcare system, including the shortage of doctors mentioned in today's motion.

Deputy President, the acute shortage of healthcare manpower in the public healthcare system of Hong Kong has been a perennial problem, and a patient may need to spend years waiting for treatment. This situation is by no means desirable. Even though the authorities have said every year that a multi-pronged approach is adopted to make improvements, the shortage of manpower still occurs year after year. Deputy President, I do not doubt the good intentions of the Government, but I only hope that it can learn a lesson from the bitter experience. It should clearly know that the measures adopted over the years, including increasing the number of healthcare training places, rehiring retired doctors, and stepping up publicizing the limited registration scheme overseas, either fall short of what are needed or are akin to distant water that cannot quench a fire nearby. Such ineffective measures are not only detrimental to the well-being of patients nowadays but also unable to cope with challenges in the new era. The Government must think out of the box, for example, to formulate "a new mechanism for importing experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors" as proposed in the motion.

The Report of the Strategic Review on Healthcare Manpower Planning and Professional Development issued by the authorities three years ago already contains quite a number of projections, including one about a shortfall of approximately 500 doctors in Hong Kong by this year or 2020, and the figure will be doubled to over 1 000 in 10 years. Given the study on manpower planning, has the Government actually narrowed the shortfall in doctor manpower? Or has it merely adopted a "muddling-along" attitude? Needless to say, members of the public are disappointed at the effectiveness of the Government in resolving the shortage of healthcare manpower. Last year the Hospital Authority ("HA") had an attrition rate of 5.4% among doctors, 322 full-time doctors left, and there was a cumulative shortfall of around 260 doctors. New supply of locally trained doctors is simply inadequate to catch up with rising healthcare demand. It has been reported that in recent years the annual average number of non-locally LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1619 trained doctors who have passed the Licensing Examination and become registered doctors is only some 40, and only 25 non-locally trained doctors are now serving at public hospitals under limited registration. It is thus clear that assistance provided by non-locally trained doctors is only better than nothing.

If the Government is determined to improve healthcare services, the shortage of doctors will be even more serious. The per capita doctor ratio in Hong Kong is only around 2 per 1 000 people, far lower than the average of 3.4 in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, and also lower than the 2.5 in Singapore. If Hong Kong wants to catch up with Singapore, there is already a shortfall of over 3 000 doctors. It is more noteworthy that 12 years ago the ratio in Singapore was still lower than that in Hong Kong, but within less than 10 years it has eclipsed Hong Kong instead, and the importation of doctors is exactly one measure it has vigorously pursued. Nowadays, the number of overseas-trained doctors accounts for over 30% of the total number of doctors in Singapore. The ratio is even higher in some developed countries, such as 42% in New Zealand, 40% in Norway, and 33% in Australia. As far as Hong Kong is concerned, overseas-trained doctors represent only 8.6% of all doctors if examination-free entry before 1996 is excluded.

Deputy President, I certainly have no intention to treat the importation of overseas doctors as one measure that can solve Hong Kong's shortage of doctors once and for all. In fact, Hong Kong's shortage of healthcare manpower is complicated as it involves training resources, unbalanced development of public and private healthcare services, conditions and prospects of working in public hospitals, and population ageing. These factors are intertwined and ever changing. For example, it is estimated that 10 years later the number of Super-Seniors aged 85 and above in Hong Kong will surge, and 30 years later this number will multiply to over 800 000. At the same time, given the rapid development of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area, HA patients are already eligible to receive treatment at the University of Hong Kong Shenzhen Hospital, doctors and healthcare organizations are encouraged to go north for development, and more elderly persons will possibly choose to spend their twilight years in the Greater Bay Area. As all these will have considerable impacts on the planning of healthcare software and hardware in Hong Kong, the Government must consider these issues in a holistic manner and formulate a set of flexible and comprehensive strategies for reforms.

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Regarding these reforms, including the specific details of a new mechanism for the proper importation of non-locally trained doctors, the authorities should, having regard to the overall interest of society, expeditiously put forward proposals that go beyond the hassles and piecemeal remedies in the past, and discuss with the medical sector and the public.

Deputy President, for the aforesaid reasons, I support this motion. I so submit.

MR VINCENT CHENG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I very much agree to Mr Martin LIAO's earlier comment that Dr CHENG Chung-tai came from other planets or from Mars. He really has no idea about the sufferings of the people, or about how many people are under pressure because they have to wait for public healthcare services. If it is said that the epidemic would deter overseas doctors from coming to Hong Kong and hence no action should be taken, then nothing would need to be done eternally. Is the epidemic going to last forever? No. Therefore, actually it is appropriate to think and plan ahead and make preparations as early as possible.

Deputy President, I have to thank Mr Tommy CHEUNG for proposing this motion which enables this Council to discuss whether the Government should expeditiously formulate a new mechanism and a new system for importing experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors, so as to alleviate the grave shortage of doctors in the public healthcare system. Now the whole community is fighting the epidemic. The outbreak has not yet ended and worse still, there are many signs of a rebound. Ten months into the epidemic, the public healthcare system in Hong Kong has been under enormous pressure, and there were cases in which the confirmed patients had to wait for several days at home before being admitted to hospital. In fact, the shortage of resources and the consistently tight healthcare manpower plaguing the public healthcare system are long-standing problems. In view of this, I think the discussion on this motion is most needed, timely, and pressing.

Deputy President, I wish to take this opportunity to thank all healthcare workers and doctors who have faithfully performed their duties during the epidemic. Some retired healthcare workers have even rejoined the hospitals to provide support services at the front line for the Hospital Authority ("HA"), demonstrating their kind-heartedness and compassion for patients. Of course, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1621 the only imperfection is that some healthcare workers had organized a strike among healthcare workers during the epidemic to make the Government implement a full border closure. Such an approach which did not give priority to patients' interest certainly met strong criticisms and was unfair to the healthcare workers who faithfully performed their duties in their posts.

Deputy President, I wish to point out that disregarding whether we are discussing ways to deal with the epidemic or this topic about importing overseas doctors, apart from talking about professionalism and stressing how to uphold the professional standards of doctors, we should also be rational in our discussion, and we should consider the issue from the interests of patients and the public, in order to make rational choices. Therefore, while we have to attach importance to professionalism, we must be rational too, in order to resolve the problem in a pragmatic way.

Deputy President, what exactly is the problem now faced by the healthcare system in Hong Kong? The problem lies in the acute shortage of doctors and an imbalance between the public and private healthcare sectors. According to the statistics of the Government, there are about 14 000 medical practitioners in Hong Kong now. The per capita doctor ratio in Hong Kong is 1.9 per 1 000 people. Compared with other developed places, we can see that in South Korea and Singapore, for instance, the per capita doctor ratio is 2.3; and it is 2.6 in the United States; 2.8 in the United Kingdom; 3.6 in Australia; and in Germany, it is even as high as 4.2, far higher than this developed city of Hong Kong. Why are there only so few doctors serving the people in Hong Kong at present?

Let me ask the Secretary this: Apart from having to wait for the medical students of the two universities to join as doctors after graduation, is there entirely no other measure that can be taken? Can the Government alleviate the shortage of healthcare workers in Hong Kong in a short time? Importing an appropriate number of overseas doctors is actually a solution. As colleagues have said earlier, this certainly should not be the only measure to be taken, but it still cannot be totally excluded from consideration.

But what has the Government done in this regard? Deputy President, from 1996 to 2018, there were only 457 overseas-trained doctors in Hong Kong. They were required to pass all three component examinations and internship assessment, and they represented only 3% of the total number of doctors in 2018. This could be attributable to a low pass rate in the Licensing Examination, and 1622 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 there were also many restrictions, such as the requirement for candidates to have completed overseas internship before coming to Hong Kong. Many restrictions were imposed on overseas-trained doctors who, therefore, did not find it attractive to come to Hong Kong. This is why there have been many voices in society in recent years calling for a slight relaxation of the mechanism for the registration of overseas doctors in Hong Kong.

In this connection, at a meeting of the Panel on Health Services in May 2019, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong ("DAB") proposed amendments to the Medical Registration Ordinance with the aim of reforming the arrangements for overseas doctors to practise in Hong Kong under limited registration. Amendments were proposed to the effect that doctors who had been in employment with HA under limited registration for not less than five years and with satisfactory work performance proven by their employers would be qualified for full registration without having to go through the required examination and internship in Hong Kong. However, the Government responded at the time that the proposal was highly controversial. Earlier on, Mrs IP also mentioned this point. On the question that this proposal is controversial, I believe a great majority of Hong Kong people will agree that there is nothing controversial about having one more person to help, one more healthcare worker or one more doctor in Hong Kong. I do not understand what made the proposal controversial as described by the Secretary. But never mind. Even if it is really that controversial, should the Government work harder and conduct more consultations properly to resolve this issue and carry out a reform?

In fact, we have seen that in recent years, both the Government and the Medical Council of Hong Kong have said that improvement had been made to the system for importing overseas doctors by, among others, allowing greater flexibility in some aspects, just as the Secretary said in her opening remarks earlier. But having carried out discussions and studies for such a long time, what have they done so far? The latest figure showed that as at July 2020, there were only 26 non-locally trained doctors working in hospitals under limited registration, which is actually an incredibly small number. According to some reports, last year, after the requirements were relaxed, so to speak, only less than 10 overseas doctors were qualified to practise as registered medical practitioners. Therefore, this is actually far from adequate as their number is very, very small. How can this meet such a huge demand for public healthcare services in Hong Kong?

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Therefore, Deputy President, I think the Government should expeditiously adopt all practicable measures to increase the supply of local doctors, which include relaxing the mechanism for the registration of overseas doctors in Hong Kong, and seriously study the proposals put forward by DAB in order to resolve the problem. The Government can also draw reference to the experience of Singapore, which has adopted many initiatives to attract graduates of renowned medical schools overseas. The Government can also allow these graduates to practise in Hong Kong through certification and training. There are indeed many measures that the Government can take.

Lastly, Deputy President, I think doctors from all over the world are basically the same. This year, I have been to hospitals for far more times than I did in the past. Some time ago when I was in Japan, I met a lot of doctors there. To me, all doctors are professional, and actually no restriction should be imposed to make such a clear distinction of them or divide them into different categories. In fact, if some doctors can be imported to help resolve the problem in the healthcare sector in Hong Kong while at the same time protecting local doctors, this, I think, is what should be done.

Therefore, Deputy President, I support Mr Tommy CHEUNG's original motion. I so submit.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I rise to speak in support of the motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors" proposed by Mr Tommy CHEUNG. Deputy President, the question on whether there is the need to admit more non-locally trained doctors to alleviate the shortage of local doctors, especially in the public healthcare system, has actually been discussed in society for a long time. This Council has also debated this question many times. This motion was proposed by Mr Tommy CHEUNG in May 2019. Half a year has passed. There is not any improvement in the situation. To date, it is still an urgent issue which is yet to be resolved.

Deputy President, as a matter of fact, Hong Kong did not always adopt a high threshold in treating local doctors who returned after overseas training or doctors who were recruited to come to serve in Hong Kong. Before the relevant policy was tightened in September 1996, overseas trained doctors from specified Commonwealth countries could practise in Hong Kong without taking any 1624 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 examination. As shown by the information of the Legislative Council Secretariat, during the period from 1990 to 1995 alone, the average annual number of doctors admitted to Hong Kong from overseas was 200, estimated to account for 16% of the overall number of doctors at the end of 2018. However, after the policy was tightened, harsh restrictions were imposed. From 1997 to 2018, only 457 overseas doctors were allowed to practise in Hong Kong, accounting for just 3% of Hong Kong's overall doctor supply at the end of 2018.

According to the statistics of the Food and Health Bureau ("FHB"), in 2019, for every 1 000 people in Hong Kong, there were only two doctors. Certainly, in view of the structural imbalance between public and private healthcare, not to mention that public hospitals had to provide about 90% of the inpatient services, the actual situation was only worse. Drawing reference from the latest figures of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development ("OECD"), we see that the global average ratio of doctors per 1 000 people is 3.5. In comparison, not only does Hong Kong lag behind the standard in the neighbouring countries, such as 2.4 in Korea and 2.5 in Japan. It also lags way behind most European countries. It is projected that to catch up with OECD's standard ratio of doctors per 1 000 people, we need to increase the number of doctors by more than 10 000 at the minimum. In OECD's member countries, overseas doctors account for about 17% of the overall number of doctors on average. The proportion of overseas doctors in some of its member countries is even higher. For example, it is 42% in New Zealand, 40% in Norway, 33% in Australia, 28% in the United Kingdom and 25% in the United States. Obviously, Hong Kong absolutely meets the condition for relaxing the requirements on admitting overseas trained doctors to local practice, and it is necessary to do so to relieve the acute manpower shortage.

Deputy President, as one of the ways to increase manpower supply, admission of overseas doctors should be based on the principle of not lowering the quality of local healthcare services. In 2019, the Medical Council of Hong Kong formulated a new proposal. Overseas doctors could come to work in Hong Kong with limited registration. After working for three years with limited registration, they still had to take the licensing examination. The exemption from internship could provide little incentive. As proven by the facts, the new proposal was not attractive at all. Since implementation, the number of applications made and approved for exemption from internship was only single-digit. It was just like a drop in the bucket. How could it alleviate the manpower shortage in public healthcare? Unfortunately, suffering one blow LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1625 after another, Hong Kong society has fallen into a state of chaos since the movement of opposition to the proposed amendments to the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance started. Early this year, there was also the outbreak of the coronavirus disease. I believe all these have a negative impact on attracting non-locally trained doctors to come to Hong Kong.

Quite a number of people have directly pointed out that after all, what affects the registration of overseas doctors in Hong Kong most deeply is the high threshold of the licensing examination for medical practitioners. Some people worry that lowering the threshold will cause "bad money to drive out the good". The crux is, is the present licensing examination for doctors the only feasible way of gatekeeping? Take Singapore as an example. Since 1970s in the last century, it has implemented an examination-free system, allowing overseas trained doctors from selected medical schools to work there through an overseas medical training scheme or a conditional registration scheme. Under the former, one needs to serve in a public hospital for two to four years and pass the supervision period. Under the latter, with even more stringent requirements, one has to pass the accreditation for housemanship. According to the experience of Singapore, quality is assured by accredited medical training in recognized medical schools, as well as the supervision period or accreditation for housemanship. Results have shown that Singapore can still effectively maintain the quality of healthcare services even though there is no licensing examination to keep the gate. Deputy President, is the experience of Singapore not worthy of reference?

Back to our question. To practically resolve the manpower shortage in public healthcare, it will only get half the result with twice the effort if the mechanism for importing overseas doctors is merely relaxed without improving the working environment in public hospitals. As indicated by the opinion survey released by the Hong Kong Institute of Asia-Pacific Studies of The Chinese University of Hong Kong in June 2019, half of the respondents were concerned that overseas doctors would switch to the private market after they succeeded in getting the local registration. Such concern is not unfounded. In respect of the need to increase the manpower of doctors in public hospitals, such factors as hospital management, working environment and remuneration package are interrelated and should be studied concurrently for improvement. Only then can the brain drain be stopped.

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In 2017, FHB conducted a manpower requirement projection and found that even in a best-case scenario, the shortfall of doctors would reach 500 in 2020 and even double in 2030. We certainly cannot expect that the problem of manpower shortage can be resolved by importing overseas doctors alone. The Government must adopt a multi-pronged approach, including a substantial increase in the number of places in local medical schools. In the short run, it is imperative that a consensus be reached in society on admitting more overseas doctors to cope with the urgent need. On the premise of not lowering the quality of local healthcare services, timely response must be made to relax the mechanism for admitting overseas trained doctors.

With these remarks, Deputy President, I support the motion.

MR WILSON OR (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I rise to speak in support of the motion moved by Mr Tommy CHEUNG. Deputy President, as we all know, the healthcare systems in places such as Europe and the United States have almost collapsed completely in the face of the blow dealt by the global COVID-19 pandemic. The situation in Hong Kong, which has been hit by three epidemic waves in a row, is also very critical. The isolation wards have been overloaded on several occasions, whereas non-emergency medical services have to be suspended as well. Some healthcare staff were forced to stay on duty for a prolonged period of time due to a strike. The shortage of resources has resulted in the overburdening of the public healthcare system, highlighting the problems of healthcare manpower shortage as well as excessively long waiting time in Hong Kong. Actually, the overburdening of the public healthcare system in Hong Kong did not occur overnight.

Deputy President, I wish to review the issue with the Secretary in order to gain some new insights. As we all know, the healthcare manpower shortage is an extremely pressing problem in Hong Kong nowadays. Just now an Honourable colleague said that he did not find any urgency in the issue. I wonder how he came up with this view. We can judge whether a society has a sound healthcare system by referring to the doctor-to-population ratio. According to the figures provided by the Food and Health Bureau, there were only two registered doctors for every 1 000 people in 2018. This is the figure two years ago, I do not know if the situation has improved now, and I hope the Under Secretary can answer me later. Looking back at the figure 10 years ago LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1627

(i.e. in 2010), there were only 1.9 doctors for every 1 000 people, so the number has merely increased by 0.1 after almost 10 years. If I am asked whether this situation is acceptable, I think it is totally unacceptable.

Deputy President, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Hong Kong is indeed lagging far behind other countries as far as the present problem is concerned, and there is only one reason behind it. Deputy President, we cannot rely on the Government's present approach of doing just minor patch-up work. In my opinion, we must deal with the problem at the root and explore means to increase the number of registered doctors. Deputy President, you would also feel worried when you hear the figures that I have quoted just now, for you were also elected to the legislature through a district election. To be honest, the imbalance in the doctor-to-patient ratio will lead to ever-increasing waiting time in public hospitals. I reckon this is a long-standing problem which is well known to the public and needs no further elaboration. Taking Kowloon East that I represent as an example―I believe Under Secretary Dr CHUI Tak-yi knows it full well as he was the Hospital Chief Executive of the United Christian Hospital before taking up the post of Under Secretary―I must tell Under Secretary Dr CHUI that the waiting time at ophthalmology departments of the Kowloon East Cluster is 174 weeks, which is more than three years; whereas the waiting time at the general medicine departments of the Kowloon East Cluster is 145 weeks, almost three years as well. Are these figures acceptable to him? They are absolutely unacceptable to me. This is simply ridiculous.

Many members of the community have told me that it would be really terrible if they are severely ill. They said that they would seek consultation from private doctors rather than waiting in public hospitals even though the fees are somewhat higher. Yet, please do not forget that, from the perspective of conspiracy theories, I wonder if the Government deliberately makes private healthcare better than public healthcare? But the imminent problem is, many grass-roots members of the public cannot afford it. I hope the Government would really address the pressing needs of the public with a down-to-earth attitude. Therefore, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong and I have been voicing out our request for increasing the number of registered doctors in different panels and committees of the Legislative Council with a view to alleviating the manpower shortage problem in public hospitals. There is a famous quote by members of the community, which they wish I can 1628 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 tell the Under Secretary in my speech today. They say that they have to wait for nine months to one year to see a doctor, but the consultation takes five to eight minutes at most. The situation for collecting medicines is better now, as they do not have to wait for an hour and a half. Members of the public will see these with their eyes and take them to heart. To be fair, manpower is a problem, but I think hardware is the most important. The Hospital Authority ("HA") must consider this issue as well, because the existing hardware is also seriously lagging behind, which has led to the outcome today. I believe Under Secretary Dr CHUI must give it some serious thoughts regarding how HA should be reformed.

HA really needs to be reformed. Our planning cannot cope with the current development. If we do not have adequate manpower and hardware, all planning will be in vain. I hope the Secretary can seriously assist in catching up with these figures. On the issue of catching up with the figures for polyclinics in various districts, I am not going to discuss it with the Secretary today as the discussion takes time. That said, we are now putting forward a number of measures for the Secretary's consideration to see if there are any solutions to the problems. We hope the Bureau can give some thoughts to several aspects. The first point concerns the performance of doctors who obtains limited registration upon approval by the Medical Council of Hong Kong. Can these doctors become registered doctors in Hong Kong if they have performed satisfactorily for not less than five years? To be honest, I was bitterly disappointed when the relevant bill was unable to receive first reading at the meeting of the Legislative Council a few years ago. However, I think that in order to achieve a "win-win-win" situation, the Government really has to consider how to import some doctors. This will not only improve the quality, but also help solve the deep-seated problems before us. Second, the Government really needs to find some ways to allocate additional resources to properly address the problems we are now facing. For instance, can more specialist training places be provided so that the many overseas doctors can also receive such training? I think these are what the Government should also consider. However, I have noticed that the Government may find the current situation satisfactory and hence think that nothing needs to be changed. Yet, I wish to remind colleagues in the Policy Bureau that whilst the problem has not yet burst out today, it will burst out sooner or later. But I am not sure whether the same person will still be in this position or has already retired by then. Nevertheless, I hope they can think about it further, whether it is a 5-year or 10-year plan, I think it should be done today.

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Deputy President, I often say that we must never pay lip service only and do nothing practical. The Government must not adopt a laid-back attitude anymore. I believe that at the present time, the Government must act on its words, be bold enough to make commitments and think out of the box when handling these problems which remain unresolved for years. Since this issue is discussed in the Chamber today, I hope colleagues in the Government will have the determination to strive to discuss with the relevant sector if it has any views or different voices. But most importantly, the Government indeed has to face up to the reality, otherwise this problem will only lead to an increasingly long waiting time for our healthcare system, and even that for various specialist outpatient clinics.

Deputy President, what I have said is with all sincerity and well-intentioned. I wish to tell the Government that no matter what the outcome is, it really has to figure a way out.

Deputy President, lastly, I support Mr Tommy CHEUNG's motion. I also hope that the Government will no longer adopt a laid-back attitude and it must continue to do a good job in this respect.

MR CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the healthcare expenditure takes up a very large proportion of the Government's spending out of the public coffers annually. Given that such a large amount of money is injected into the healthcare system, I think we should first make clear what exactly our objective is.

In spending such a lot of money on the healthcare system, our objective is to protect public health and enhance the public healthcare system, not for the interest of a particular sector or industry. We must first establish this point, or else our discussion today would become meaningless. Since we spend so much money on the healthcare system for the sake of public health and interest, can the existing healthcare system achieve this objective? Regarding the private healthcare system, the one thing that everybody knows is that it is expensive, and I think I need not do any explaining about it. But given the excessively long waiting time in the public healthcare system, the more well-offs prefer private healthcare services and pay for the cost. But these services are indeed unaffordable to many grass roots who, therefore, have no alternative but to rely on the public healthcare system.

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Regarding the current situation of the public healthcare system, I think I need not give a detailed explanation here as it can simply be described as "seriously overburdened". Earlier on a number of Members who have spoken already provided some specific statistics to us. How long is the waiting time for consultation, especially with a specialist, in public hospitals now? As Mr LAU Kwok-fan has said earlier, the waiting time for the first appointment is currently over three years. Some grass-roots people told us that they have to wait for over a year for specialist services, which is already commonplace.

Therefore, we can conclude that the existing healthcare system in Hong Kong is riddled with problems. This is mainly caused by the shortage of healthcare workers, which is precisely the topic of our discussion in this Chamber today. Earlier on the Secretary gave an account of the current policies. In the first point of her reply, she said that over the years, the Government has already increased the annual student intake in the two local medical schools. The number has increased from 250 in the years from 2005 to 2009 to 470 from 2016 to 2019, which, therefore, represented an increase of close to 90% as mentioned by the Secretary earlier. But if we look at the actual numbers that I have just cited, we will see that from 2005 to 2019, actually the number only increased from 250 to 470, meaning that there was an increase of some 200 doctors. Given that the base number is small, the increase is, therefore, said to be 90%. But as you know, Deputy President, there are only two medical schools in Hong Kong, and no matter how we will increase the provision of resources for them, how many more students can they admit each year? I think Members know it only too well. The question that follows is how many additional doctors these two medical schools can provide for us. Can the additional supply meet the healthcare needs in Hong Kong? I think I need not do any more explaining and Members all understand that it is actually impossible to meet the needs. This is why Mr Vincent CHENG, when speaking on the shortage of manpower, said earlier that the increase in the number of doctor is, in fact, far from adequate.

The Secretary said earlier that the Government has adopted other measures, including retaining talents and extending the retirement age of doctors, and so on. Let us take a look at whether these measures are practically of any assistance to us. For some time in the past, we have seen that many doctors in the public healthcare system, especially middle-ranked doctors, have switched to the private market. Why? The working conditions and environment are certainly the most crucial factors because the current conditions of public hospitals are indeed pathetically appalling. Looking back, in 2018 there were 314 full-time medical LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1631 practitioners who quitted their jobs. The attrition rate was 5.9%, a new high in a decade. Why would there be such a case? It is because at present, 40% of doctors are serving 10% of hospitalized patients in private hospitals but less than 50% of doctors (around 46% in 2017) are providing 90% of all the territory's inpatient services in the public healthcare system. Such being the case, Deputy President, I think any doctor, when reaching a certain stage, will contemplate whether he can hang on any longer in the public healthcare system.

Therefore, if we simply rely on the measures to retain talents and the extension of the retirement age as mentioned by the Government, the effect will definitely be very limited. In the final analysis, what is the core problem? It is about who has the power to make policies on healthcare workers. If the present situation will continue in that the power to make policies on healthcare workers rests with the doctors-led Medical Council of Hong Kong, firstly, they obviously have conflicts of interest, and secondly, the factors that they will take into consideration are a far cry from our view that the overall public interest in Hong Kong is of paramount importance. They have proposed some so-called improvement measures, such as increasing the frequency of the Licensing Examination from once to twice a year and introducing amendments to certain provisions which included allowing the contract period of doctors practising under limited registration to be extended from one year to three years as if a heavenly grace is granted. But over the past few years, have these measures successfully recruited non-local doctors to Hong Kong?

Members can take a look at the relevant figures available now. Overseas-trained doctors account for about 25% of the total number of doctors in Hong Kong and of these 25% of doctors, a majority (about six sevenths) was recruited from overseas before 1996. As for doctors imported from 1997 to 2018, the figure of 2018 showed that actually they accounted for a mere 4% of the total number of doctors. In other words, the measures implemented by the Government are far from adequate to address the existing shortage of doctors. I hope that the Government can deal with the core problem that I mentioned just now and assume the power to make policies on healthcare workers, so as to expeditiously increase the manpower of doctors in Hong Kong, especially those serving in the public healthcare system, with a view to resolving the fundamental problem in the public healthcare sector. Thank you, Deputy President.

1632 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I fail to see the presence of the Secretary, and only the Under Secretary is present. As the Under Secretary is a doctor by profession, I think that whatever I say will not be pleasant to the ears. Never mind, we must be open-minded. As an official, he should not regard himself as a doctor, but should bear in mind that he is an official serving the public.

The 10 Members or so who have spoken before me were all talking about the same issue, namely the shortage of doctors. Dr CHENG Chung-tai, who is now not present, has said just now that we are looting a burning house, and that we have only proposed this topic simply because there are no pan-democratic Members in the legislature. What was he talking about? When the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong proposed the introduction of incentives in increasing overseas doctors, people from the Democratic Party all scrambled to come forward, and Dr Helena WONG was the first to rush forward to raise her many points of view. We all know this. Now it is not that I am calling for the increase of doctors, nor is it that I am saying there is a shortage of doctors in the Hospital Authority ("HA"). Previously doctors themselves had come forward to display such words as "Burnout" and "Exhaustion" before coming forward again to display "Anger". This is what they had displayed rather than what we had displayed. Given such "Burnout" and "Anger" on the part of doctors, why do we not help them to alleviate their problems? The people in charge of HA and the responsible government officials are all duty-bound to do so.

Let us further examine this issue from the perspective of the public. I believe Members all know that one needs to wait 3.5 years for ophthalmology services. Is this reasonable? Do you think this is reasonable? This is certainly unreasonable. You dare not nod or shake your head, but I know what you are thinking deep in your heart. You agree with me, but you dare not make your position clear as you are under immense pressure. Not only are you under pressure, but I was also threatened when I proposed a bill. I was surprised at why there were such vicious people, as I received threatening messages one after another.

I am not sure whether I was born in a public hospital. As far as my memory goes, I have never received treatment in a public hospital over the past decades, but I often visit local residents in public hospitals. Deputy President, grass-roots people nowadays are underprivileged and choke with silent fury. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1633

They are only able to complain when they meet with a Member. They invariably say that as one keeps waiting, a minor ailment will become a serious disease, and if one continues waiting, a serious disease will be gone. Why so? The reason is that the person is already gone. Can we treat members of the public in such a way? Earlier an assistant of mine was ill and needed to undergo a minor operation. Since a long waiting time was needed for public hospital services, he ended up having an operation in a private hospital. The total cost was $120,000, of which $30,000 came from his insurance, and the rest came from his hard-earned personal savings. Was this fair? He is a taxpayer.

Many people who reside in the New Territories have been waiting too long for public hospital services. Some of them can no longer wait and choose to have operations in hospitals in Shenzhen for less expensive charges. Certainly, you can say that if one can no longer wait, he has the freedom to receive treatment in Shenzhen or other places. The point is that we are all taxpayers, and public hospitals are funded by taxpayers. While the shortage of doctors is deteriorating, the amount of funding is increasing. The amount of funding was $64,600 million the year before last year, $72,500 million last year, and $76,600 million this year. I wonder how much funding HA will seek next year.

Deputy President, the Government knew in 1996 that nearly half of Hong Kong's doctors were trained in Commonwealth countries, but following the change of policy by the British Hong Kong Government, most such doctors were unable to return to Hong Kong for practice. The number of practising doctors who have returned to Hong Kong and passed an examination after graduating in Commonwealth courtiers is less than 10% of the total number of doctors each year, representing a decrease of some 90%. The Government is saying only now that there will be more places and more students will be trained. Now I am very hungry and I am going to die of starvation, but you are saying only now that you will rinse and cook rice, or even that you will start to plant rice at this moment? The Government started to offer more places in 2009, but more than 10 years have passed and not a single specialist has been trained.

Deputy President, I think Members must all remember that earlier a renowned doctor was bestowed with the European Society for Medical Oncology Lifetime Achievement Award. He is Dr Tony MOK, but even he is not allowed to serve as a fully-registered doctor. He is the glory of Hong Kong doctors nowadays. Shame! How can the system of Hong Kong be like this? (The buzzer sounded) …

1634 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHIANG Lai-wan, your speaking time is up.

MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I am very glad that I can discuss livelihood issues of public concern with Members in the Chamber today.

In the past few months, we saw that filibusters had prevented us from handling many issues of grave concern to the many members of the public. In fact, the shortage of healthcare workers has been discussed for many years, as many colleagues have just pointed out. In Hong Kong, given the ageing population, we will be facing greater challenge in future. First, I would like to express my gratitude to all healthcare workers who have worked so hard in fighting the epidemic. They have a really hard time, yet they still faithfully fulfil their duties to take care of the patients. Deputy President, the public healthcare system in Hong Kong has already reached its capacity in normal times. Over the past period, we have seen that the COVID-19 epidemic, which is a major incident, has posed an even greater challenge to the system. The problem of ageing population also affects many areas. We estimate that by 2036, 31% of the population will be over 65 years of age. Hong Kong needs more doctors. However, there are only around 15 000 doctors in Hong Kong at present, a ratio of 1:500 to the population, which can hardly cope with the existing healthcare demand of the community.

On the other hand, many people are either suffering from the "three-highs" or body aches. The World Health Organization has also estimated that a tsunami of cancer is on the horizon. At present, there are over 30 000 new cancer cases in Hong Kong each year. Cancer cannot be cured in one go and affects all aspects of health, requiring long-term follow-up. Moreover, the public also need services such as medical check-ups and vaccinations. Hence, we can foresee that there will only be a further shortage of doctors in future.

Deputy President, I believe Members will agree that there is a shortage of doctors, as well as nurses and other professional healthcare workers, in Hong Kong. Nonetheless, the problem is not simply an issue about how to increase manpower. In recent years, local medical schools have already increased the number of places in the hope to train additional doctors. Yet, training takes time LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1635 and it will not be able to cope with our healthcare demand within a short time. Hence, we really need to allow overseas doctors to come to Hong Kong. Our focus of concern should be how to ensure that the quality of doctors coming to Hong Kong will benefit the community.

Deputy President, I have heard from my friends more than once that they know many renowned doctors around the world, including professors from top medical schools and internationally recognized doctors with unique skills. The problem is that the existing system of Hong Kong prevents it from inviting them to Hong Kong, either on a one-off or long-term basis. Even if they come to Hong Kong to provide medical consultation, they cannot do anything themselves. They can only offer guidance to their medical partners in Hong Kong but cannot provide treatment directly due to the restrictions under the existing registration system.

Deputy President, while the whole world is scrambling for healthcare talents, we alone have set a threshold which is too high to reach. There is definitely room for improvement under the existing system, as the current examination arrangement and internship model can hardly attract overseas doctors to come to Hong Kong. For instance, internationally recognized professors or renowned doctors are all required to work as a "rookie" for a year and undertake overnight on-call duties before being allowed to practise in Hong Kong. Their apprentices or the apprentices of their apprentices may already be medical consultants. These overseas doctors may have taken part in the compilation of text books used in medical schools and published numerous articles in international journals. As such, the above arrangement sounds very unreasonable to us.

Deputy President, we certainly attach great importance to the quality of doctors and we expect all doctors to be professional and of good standard, so that patients can seek medical treatment without any worries. However, under the current broad-brush approach, doctors who are not graduated from medical schools in Hong Kong are required to take examinations and undergo internship. In fact, the standard of doctors graduated from top medical schools is known to all. If they are willing to come to Hong Kong, it will benefit Hong Kong. We need to see this clearly. These doctors can already teach and provide consultation to the people of Hong Kong when they come here. Why do we not do so? We should find ways to attract them to come to Hong Kong. The 1636 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Administration can select specific medical schools and allow them to be dealt with in a different and more flexible way. The approach adopted by Singapore is also very flexible. They have already switched to a more flexible approach, including the introduction of an examination exemption scheme for graduates of top medical schools so as to allow qualified overseas doctors to apply for registration and practice, and so on.

Another common reason for opposing the importation of doctors is that these doctors do not know Cantonese and their practice is different. We agree that communication between doctors and patients are extremely important but it can be handled in other ways. Just as before the reunification, doctors from Commonwealth countries could come to practise in Hong Kong directly. Back then, no one criticized those doctors for lacking quality or not knowing Cantonese. Moreover, many Hongkongers have children studying overseas who know Cantonese and certainly share the same cultural background with us, so those issues will no longer be of concern. If people are worried about the time needed to adapt to the different hospital environment, we have other ways to facilitate their adaptation. Reference can be drawn from the many practices adopted around the world.

Deputy President, no matter how much we have said, the shortfall in healthcare services cannot be improved. Only with action and expeditious implementation can the job be done. Some people will sow discord between the Mainland and Hong Kong while others will obstruct policy implementation with false assumptions. Nonetheless, the healthcare issue can brook no delay. People will fall ill (The buzzer sounded) … yet they have to wait for three to four years for a consultation …

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Jeffrey LAM, your speaking time is up.

MR CHAN CHUN-YING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I would like to thank Mr Tommy CHEUNG for proposing the motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors" today, so that Members have the opportunity to express their views on the shortcomings of the local healthcare system.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1637

The shortage of doctors has been plaguing Hong Kong for years. The issue has been under discussion for a long time without any long-term solution. This year we are facing the onslaught of the novel coronavirus disease epidemic and the upcoming annual influenza peak season, we can say that Hong Kong is taking on the biggest challenge ever. At present, the healthcare systems in many major cities and countries are on the verge of collapse. Under these circumstances, it is high time to discuss how Hong Kong can import experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors so that the Government can make early plans and responses, having listened to Members' views.

As mentioned by Mr Tommy CHEUNG in his opening speech, currently less than half (46%) of the doctors in Hong Kong work in the public healthcare system. Yet, the latter provides about 90% of inpatient services. For this reason, the Government has acknowledged the manpower shortage in public hospitals as a result of Hong Kong's ageing population and the overloaded public healthcare system. However, the Food and Health Bureau ("FHB") has stated repeatedly at different meetings that no target has been set for the ratio of healthcare professionals to the population. As a number of Members have mentioned in their speeches, the ratio of doctors per capita in Hong Kong lags behind that in other advanced cities in Asia. If a target is set, I believe a staggering number of additional doctors will be required, highlighting the long-term inaction of the Government and FHB on this issue.

In the Report of the Strategic Review on Healthcare Manpower Planning and Professional Development published by FHB in 2017, it was projected that there would be a shortfall of 1 000 doctors in Hong Kong by 2030. The actual demand will be even stronger if a projection is made again today. The public healthcare system has been experiencing a rapid brain drain, with the attrition rate reaching record highs in recent years. Every time I have visited a public hospital in recent years, I have the impression that the doctors are generally younger. I do not discriminate against them because of their age, but I feel that doctors with some experience will soon switch to the private healthcare system. Hence, I believe that serious problems will arise if the chronic shortage of doctors in public hospitals is left unaddressed. First, there will be the risk of medical accidents, and second, the waiting time for public healthcare services will increase.

Mr Wilson OR cited two examples of the longest waiting time for stable new case booking at specialist outpatient clinics in Kowloon East under the Hospital Authority ("HA"). The waiting time for ophthalmology specialist in 1638 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Kowloon East was 174 weeks, for medicine specialist in Kowloon East was 145 weeks. Orthopaedics and traumatology specialist in Kowloon Central ranked third, with a waiting time of 137 weeks. Patients had to wait three years for consultation which lasts only a few minutes. The ultimate victim of the long waiting time is definitely the general public.

I understand that the Government has endeavoured to increase the number of local medical graduates in recent years. However, distant water really cannot put out a fire nearby. It takes 6 to 13 years to train a doctor. Even if all fresh graduates are absorbed by the healthcare system, I believe they are only sufficient to fill the vacancies arising from retired doctors, but are not enough to cope with the rapid growth in healthcare demand. Hence, I agree that the importation of overseas-trained doctors can immediately alleviate the manpower shortage and improve the quality of healthcare services. Moreover, the importation of experienced and quality overseas doctors can also diversify healthcare manpower and promote the exchange of medical experience.

However, the problem is that under the existing mechanism, the employment terms of doctors in Hong Kong are not attractive at all. The wages of specialists are not particularly high compared to those in other countries or cities, and the working conditions are not particularly good either. As a result, only 30 doctors have been employed by HA under limited registration and four by the Department of Health so far. The number of doctors retiring each year is also higher than this figure.

In the past, whenever the idea of relaxing the restrictions on overseas doctors to practise in Hong Kong was mentioned, there would definitely be strong opposition from doctors' organizations. I hope the Government can show some courage this time and respond to them with facts and figures. For instance, the admission threshold for overseas specialists to practise in Singapore and Australia is lower than that in Hong Kong, yet the importation of overseas doctors has not caused problems to their local healthcare standard or affected the development opportunities of locally-trained doctors.

The Government should accept the recommendations made in the motion and formulate a new mechanism expeditiously for importing experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors. I hope the Government and the Medical Council of Hong Kong will adopt a more open attitude in reviewing and reforming the existing registration system for overseas doctors, so as to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1639 thoroughly solve the manpower shortage in Hong Kong's healthcare system and make it an even better one.

I absolutely support this motion. Deputy President, I so submit.

MR CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I rise to speak in support of Mr Tommy CHEUNG's motion. In my view, the proposals made in the motion, hopefully, do not only alleviate the shortage of doctors in the public healthcare system and resolve the difficulties faced by the public in seeking medical treatment and the overly long waiting time, but also raise the overall quality of public healthcare services in Hong Kong. I fully support this motion which will benefit patients and the people in Hong Kong at large.

Facts speak louder than words. The problems caused by the shortage of doctors in the public healthcare system have emerged for a long time. Anyone who has ever used public hospital services knows that when you go to a public hospital for emergency treatment, you have to wait at least three to four hours before you can see a doctor. During the influenza surge, the waiting time is more than 10 hours, and the waiting time for specialist outpatient, medical and ophthalmology consultations will even be worse.

According to the figures released by the Hospital Authority, as at 30 June this year, the waiting time for new ophthalmology cases in the Kowloon East Cluster was the longest in Hong Kong, reaching 172 weeks, or about 3.5 years. These figures are alarming. Hong Kong is an international metropolis, and yet when people fall ill, they have to wait for hours for emergency treatment and even years for specialist consultations. This is clearly unacceptable.

Increasing the number of doctors in public hospitals and shortening patients' waiting time is an issue that the Government cannot avoid. There are only two ways to increase the number of doctors in public hospitals: first, enhance the training of local doctors; second, import experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors. The former is undoubtedly distant water that cannot put out a fire nearby. To meet the pressing needs of patients, importing experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors is the only option at present.

However, it is common knowledge that it is not easy to import non-locally trained doctors. It is particularly so as the Medical Council of Hong Kong ("MCHK"), which is empowered to handle the registration of medical 1640 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 practitioners in Hong Kong, has adopted an extremely conservative attitude, giving people the distinct impression of "doctors defending doctors" and "professional hegemony".

I do not intend to criticize MCHK here. I just hope that doctors in Hong Kong can all have a benevolent, parent-like heart. I believe they know that doctors are held in high esteem not because they earn handsome salaries but because they hold fast to the ethics of saving lives and curing the wounded, which is the nobility of the profession. Therefore, I hope MCHK, when examining whether or not to import overseas doctors, will not always put its self-interests first. It should not turn a blind eye to the plight of patients who have to wait for a long time for the sake of keeping their lucrative jobs, nor should it question the professional standards of non-locally trained doctors and attack them by insinuating that they do not know English. After all, such behaviour is exceedingly bigoted and selfish. I believe that only doctors who put the well-being of patients and people first will ultimately win society's respect.

Deputy President, many people put all the blame on MCHK for the shortage of doctors in public hospitals and the overly long waiting time for patients. However, I consider the root of the problems lies in the Government shirking its responsibilities and avoiding difficulties. After all, the long waiting time at public hospitals has been an age-old chronic disease of Hong Kong. Yet, over the years, the Government has been at its wit's end, allowing MCHK to control the entire public healthcare system. Despite being well aware that MCHK has put the interests of the profession before public interests, the most the Government can do is to express "regret and disappointment" and that's it. It has never proactively sought a solution to the problems, as if it is afraid of MCHK. This is truly disappointing.

Deputy President, no livelihood issue is too trivial. The Government should not stand idly and do nothing about matters that are closely related to the life and death of the people. I hope the Government will not be afraid of protectionism and professional hegemony when dealing with the overly long waiting time for consultations at public hospitals, but will rise to the challenges, proactively adopt effective measures to shorten patients' waiting time and make earnest efforts to safeguard the rights and interests of the people Hong Kong. This is the commitment that the Government is bound to make.

I so submit.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1641

DR PIERRE CHAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, there are reasons for the relatively low doctor to population ratio in Hong Kong compared with other advanced regions. A lot of countries need more doctors because of their vast territories. Many sparsely populated rural and remote areas still need a certain number of doctors. For example, a friend of mine lives in a small town with a population of 2 000 people in Switzerland. Local residents have to travel a long way to go to the hospital, so doctors are needed there. On the contrary, in Hong Kong, a public housing or private residential building accommodates 1 000 to 2 000 residents and there are 8 to 10 buildings in a housing estate. So, one can imagine how densely populated it is. The current doctor ratio in public housing estates is two to three doctors to cater for the needs of the entire housing estate.

According to the housing statistics provided by the Government, in 2018, nearly 45% of Hong Kong people lived in public housing estates. Doctors practising in public housing estates have all along been providing primary healthcare service to the grass roots. In the past, as shops in public housing estates managed by the Housing Authority sought to cater for the daily needs of the residents instead of making a profit, the rent was relatively low, so were the consultation fees charged by doctors practising in public housing estates. However, since the reunification, the Hong Kong Government has privatized public assets and sold most shopping malls in public housing estates to private developers or large enterprises. This has resulted in increasingly high rents and some premises were even not let out to doctors. Many doctors practising in public housing estates could not afford the high rents and were forced to close down their business. Public housing tenants are therefore deprived of the relatively inexpensive primary healthcare service and the elderly have to travel further for doctor consultation. This has nothing to do with the doctor to population ratio. It is a policy issue.

Another point I want to make is, while it is true that public hospitals are constantly overloaded, I have to set straight the example cited by an Honourable colleague just now. The Member claimed that the distribution of manpower is uneven since half of the doctors work in the public healthcare sector while the other half work in the private healthcare sector, yet doctors working in the public healthcare system cater for 90% of the inpatients. I want to point out that he has only stated the first half of the facts, but not the second half. First, according to government papers on various healthcare systems, public hospitals cater for 90% of the inpatients, while the private market caters for 80% of the outpatient service, meaning that 80% of the public will choose private outpatient service. These are the statistics provided in government papers. 1642 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Second, some Members said that doctors working in public hospitals have a hard time. I agree that working in public hospitals is tough. I will describe it with the words "explosion" and "anger". I want to tell everyone that I had something to do with this "anger" because I used this word to express my demands before joining the Legislative Council. At that time, when the Legislative Council considered pay adjustments for civil servants and public organizations, it left out, the Hospital Authority ("HA") on purpose and did not adjust our pay accordingly. I believed that there was a defect in the mechanism, so I stepped forward and pointed out that there was a problem with the system and the Government had not followed the established practice and hence, my anger. I agree that everyone is free to express his stance in the debate, but the examples cited must be accurate.

In addition, there was a time when constantly overloaded public hospitals refused to employ medical graduates, claiming that they were overstaffed. There were even calls for the two medical schools to cut the number of places. Shortly after the reunification, Treasury revenue declined due to the economic downturn amidst the Asian financial crisis. At the time, Dr YEOH Eng-kiong, the then Secretary for Health, Welfare and Food, stated that the Government could not absorb all the medical graduates given the reduction of funding for public healthcare services and insufficient resources. I graduated at that time precisely, so I experienced the situation first-hand.

Unforeseeable situations have arisen once again. The coronavirus epidemic has dealt a blow to the global and Hong Kong economy. Hong Kong will incur a deficit, so we have to tighten spending. Although the Government has set up a $10 billion public healthcare stabilization fund on the advice of Prof YUEN Kwok-yung and I, it can only avoid the impact of reduced funding allocation on healthcare services in the short run. The number of places in the two medical schools has been doubled in recent years. As the economy deteriorates and expenditures have to be cut during this crisis, the Government will again claim that there are not sufficient resources to hire all the medical graduates.

As for the importation of non-locally trained doctors, there are existing mechanisms to deal with it, including a limited registration system and the Licensing Examination. I would like to make it clear once again that the requirement for overseas doctors to pass examinations and internships to obtain full registration or professional qualifications is not unique to Hong Kong. The LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1643 same requirement also exists in foreign countries, showing that the examination system for assessing the standard of doctors is an internationally accepted, fair and reasonable system that has nothing to do with protectionism whatsoever. For instance, among the six countries listed on page two of the research on the Admission of overseas-trained doctors in Singapore and Australia conducted by the Legislative Council Secretariat as commissioned by Mr Tommy CHEUNG, examination is mandatory in Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States, just like in Hong Kong.

Indeed, a mutual recognition mechanism for medical school qualifications among Commonwealth countries and Hong Kong was in place before 1996, through which most non-locally trained doctors were brought in. However, the mechanism could not continue after Hong Kong's reunification with China. We could not recognize the qualifications of medical schools in Commonwealth countries without recognizing or accepting those of the medical schools of universities in Mainland China. The reunification was precisely the reason for the switch from the mutual recognition mechanism to the examination system.

The research conducted by the Legislative Council Secretariat has looked into the situations in Australia and Singapore. In Australia, the qualifications of medical schools in only five countries, namely the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, New Zealand and Ireland, are recognized. In Singapore, among the 103 recognized overseas medical schools, only four are universities in China, namely Peking University, Tsinghua University, Shanghai Fudan University and Jiaotong University. But the same cannot be done in Hong Kong.

Therefore, what I want to say is that, at a time of serious social division, uncertain political and economic prospects and resurgence of emigration, it is more important to improve the environment in Hong Kong and retain local talents to serve the community. I so submit.

MS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, finally, we can deal with Members' Motion and debate issues of great public concern. After a long period of storm and turbulence in the Legislative Council, I think now is the right time for Mr Tommy CHEUNG to propose a Member's Motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors" at present.

1644 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Now, in the face of the serious outbreak of COVID-19, we can all see the fragility of the public healthcare system. In fact, before the current epidemic, we all know that the doctor to population ratio of Hong Kong is 1.9 doctors to 1 000 persons, and that in Singapore is 2.4 doctors. If Hong Kong has to catch up with Singapore, we have to increase the number of doctors by 3 000. Where do we get the doctors?

This is not the first time the Legislative Council discusses the shortage of doctors. Members may recall that Mr Tommy CHEUNG took the lead to amend the Medical Registration Ordinance by proposing a Member's bill in 2016, calling for the enhancement of the composition of the Medical Council of Hong Kong and an increase in the number of doctors under limited registration and the number of non-locally trained doctors. Back then, the Government accepted the Member's bill of Mr Tommy CHEUNG and adopted that as a government bill with improvements. Nonetheless, the legislative amendment at that time had sparked off a series of controversies. Many interest groups came to the forefront and some Members of this Council played up the issue and filibustered. Eventually, the Bill was dropped. Later, a relevant Bill was passed in 2018 and the number of doctors under limited registration has been increased.

Yet, Members may refer to a written question I submitted to the Government in the beginning of this year. Upon the commencement of the relevant legislation, the number of doctors under limited registration employed by the Hospital Authority ("HA") was 10 in 2018, 22 in 2019 and the latest figure is 27. However, the attrition rate of doctors in HA was 6.5% in 2018 to 2019 and 5.4% in 2019 to 2020, i.e. a loss of 300 doctors a year. We can see that despite an increase of 20 doctors, we lost 300 doctors. How can there be enough doctors? Hence, in the Report of the Strategic Review on Healthcare Manpower Planning and Professional Development in 2017, the Government mentioned that there would be a shortfall of 1 000 doctors by 2030. The shortfall of doctors was 285 in 2016, 500 in 2020 and 1 000 in 2030. Hence, if we do not address the shortage of doctors now, how can we sustain the healthcare system of Hong Kong?

During debates held at the Legislative Council in the past, many Members, particularly Members from the relevant sector, often said that there was no shortage of doctors in Hong Kong but HA had management problems and failed to retain talents. How can talents be retained? A friend of mine, who is an ophthalmologist in a public hospital, told me that he was invited to join a private LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1645 hospital and offered an annual salary of over $10 million, not counting the bonus for completion of operation. Hence, no matter how far HA improves its remuneration; it cannot compete with the private market. The solution to the prevailing problem of doctor wastage and shortage lies in enhancing the mechanism.

Certainly, training local doctors is always the way to go. We must train local doctors but it will take five years. According to the planning report published by the Government in 2017, there will be a shortfall of 1 000 doctors by 2030. Even if we start to train more doctors from now on, will it be possible to replenish the shortfall of 1 000 doctors by then? Hence, we have to adopt a multi-pronged approach to increase the number of doctors. It is necessary to train a large number of local doctors. Moreover, a sound mechanism should be put in place for importing non-locally trained doctors. Thirdly, the authorities should identify ways to rehire retired doctors.

We should adopt different approaches to increase the supply of doctors to ensure that the public healthcare system can provide appropriate services to the public. If not, we will see patients waiting as long as five years to have their knee joints replaced due to a shortage of doctors. Recently, the epidemic has led to the cancellation of many elective surgeries and knee joint replacement operations have to be postponed to a date not yet confirmed which may be postponed further. Hence, an adequate supply of doctors is vital to maintaining the public healthcare system. Some people still say that there is no shortage of doctors in Hong Kong and HA can retain talents by doing a better job. Yet, even if HA is most willing to spend public money, it will not be able to offer an annual salary of more than $10 million as in the example I mentioned just now. How will it be possible? Buddy, how can it retain talents? Therefore, I hope the Government will train local doctors, import non-locally trained doctors and solve the problem of rehiring retired doctors.

Of course, some people may query the proposal of importing doctors. They may wonder why we, as a trade union, would support such a proposal as we have always opposed the importation of labour. Why do we agree to import doctors now? It is because this is a public health issue concerning public interest. The Government has to put in place a sound mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors without affecting the promotion prospects of existing locally-trained doctors. In other words, the imported doctors will mainly be engaged in clinical duties and providing services to patents, which will not affect 1646 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 the definite promotion prospects and career ladder of local doctors. This is the only way to ensure the provision of services to patients while protecting the definite promotion ladder of local doctors.

At present, doctors in public hospitals are drowning in work. If non-locally trained doctors can offer help, this will alleviate the work pressure of locally-trained doctors while the public can receive good services. Hence, we find it unnecessary for the Government to make other considerations. It should simply focus on the shortfall of 1 000 doctors by 2030 as stated in the report in 2017, and then do something about it by increasing the supply of doctors through a multi-pronged approach.

MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I really find it unimaginable that nowadays in the Legislative Council, a Member would blatantly question whether Hong Kong suffers from a shortage of doctors. Just now Dr CHENG Chung-tai said there are sufficient doctors in Hong Kong. That is why Mr Martin LIAO said he came from Mars. What an apt description! Besides, Dr Pierre CHAN said he himself is a doctor. He claimed that one of the reasons why overseas doctors should not be admitted was that after the reunification of Hong Kong, the practice of admitting doctors from Commonwealth countries was abolished. Now if we admit overseas doctors, we cannot only admit doctors from Commonwealth countries because we cannot exclude doctors from Mainland China. Can this be counted as a reason? I really find it inconceivable.

As a matter of fact, are there enough doctors in Hong Kong? First, we have supporting figures. Second, we have the experience. They should know about the situation, unless they have never served in society and the community, have never had contact with the people of Hong Kong and have never received any complaint. Every Member in our Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong ("DAB") has received many complaints from the public because we always serve people in the community. We have contact with the people in person and see their plight. Have they ever personally met such a case where a member of the public goes into their office to seek assistance, saying that he feels serious pain in his knee, but he has to wait for three years to consult a specialist? In another case, a member of the public said the vision of both his eyes has become blurred. He probably has cataracts, but still he has to wait to see a specialist, unless he goes to the Accident and Emergency ("A&E") LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1647

Department today and it is diagnosed that he will become blind tomorrow. Otherwise, he will have to wait for three years. Deputy President, now we are facing the problem of population ageing. This is a problem which is often cited by the Government and also frequently mentioned by us. An increasing number of people urgently need healthcare services. Just now we said that the elderly have to wait, but even children seeking psychiatric care have to wait for several years. It is thus evident that problems have emerged. Let us look at those cancer patients waiting for life-saving treatment. From the time they suspect themselves of having cancer to the time they receive treatment by doctors, they have to keep waiting in a long queue while they need treatment to save their lives. The Government keeps talking about the need to implement primary healthcare because preventive treatment should be sought before illness arises. Prevention is better than cure. Many people wish to have early treatment in the initial stage of illness. Not only can this relieve their burden of medical expenses but also improve their quality of life, prevent their medical condition from deteriorating and even save their lives. Yet they have to keep waiting, not for a few months but a few years. And the A&E Department is always full. I once received a request for assistance over the phone. The person seeking assistance said he had been vomiting in the A&E Department for seven hours but was still unable to see any doctor. A wait of seven or ten hours in the A&E Department is not uncommon at all.

Hong Kong claims to be an advanced, civilized society, but why is our healthcare of such poor quality? There is no lack of funding. Every year, the Government injects a lot of money into healthcare through the Budget. What problems are there? One of the most crucial problems is precisely the shortage of doctors. An oncologist told me in tears that he could no longer do his job. Why could he no longer do his job? He really wished to treat patients better and spend more time on medical consultation, but the reality did not allow him to do so. Patients waited for a long time to see him, but he could only spend several minutes on diagnosis. He wished to look after the patients properly, but he could do nothing to help. He had an overwhelming sense of helplessness. As such, if he carried on with his job, even he himself would have to see a doctor. As a result, he had to leave the hospital. It is thus not difficult to imagine how high the wastage of doctors is. Of course, the management of the Hospital Authority ("HA") can be improved, but the fundamental problem is the shortage of doctors, which can be proved by the available figures. As many Members have mentioned, for every 1 000 people, how many doctors should there be according to the standard of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and 1648 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Development ("OECD")? In Hong Kong, there are only 1.9, whereas in South Korea and Singapore, there are 2.3. In Japan, there are 2.4, and in Australia, 3.6. If we are to catch up with the average overall standard of OECD's member countries, i.e. 3.4, we are still short of 11 000 doctors. Training doctors is certainly a good thing to do. So is increasing the number of places. However, can such an approach catch up with the needs arising from population ageing in Hong Kong? Can it make up for the present deficiency? I agree that the number of places should be increased, but the problem is that it always falls short and can never catch up.

Hence, of course I strongly support Mr Tommy CHEUNG's motion today. We must formulate a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors in order to resolve this problem. DAB has all along moved forward in this direction. In our view, the Government should expeditiously adopt every practicable measure to increase the local supply of doctors, such as relaxing the mechanism for the registration of overseas doctors in Hong Kong, enhancing HA's scheme for rehiring retired staff, and conducting a study on the development of the third local medical school. All of these are what the Government should do. Most importantly, to meet the urgent need, it is necessary to admit and attract more overseas specialists and qualified doctors to Hong Kong as soon as possible. In fact, as early as in May 2019, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan of DAB already proposed a private Member's bill which sought to make a slight legislative amendment so as to attract doctors to come to Hong Kong. We hope that under the existing system of limited registration, doctors who have worked in HA for not less than five years, i.e. having served as a specialist for five years, and whose performance has been proven satisfactory by their employers, will be allowed to fully register as medical practitioners without taking any examination. As we have heard, the reason why many overseas specialists are unwilling to come to Hong Kong is, first of all, they have already worked as specialists for years, but after coming to Hong Kong, they are required to work under limited registration in HA. What is worse, they have to go backwards and sit for the basic licensing examination. How could this be? First, they may not be able to get a pass because they have not been in touch with the subjects of those examination papers for a long time. Second, this can be considered a kind of humiliation. Given such difficulties, why should they still come to Hong Kong? Therefore, they did not come in the end. However, actually, many children of Hongkongers studied abroad and became specialists. They long to return to Hong Kong because their parents are getting old, but due to this system, they cannot come back. Why can our system not be more open? According to the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1649 replies of the Chief Executive and the Secretary, the reason is that it is too controversial, and the controversy certainly came from the doctors in the Medical Council of Hong Kong ("MCHK"). MCHK often talks about professional autonomy. After all, is it professional autonomy? Or is it professional hegemony or protectionism? I think it is there for all to see.

Hence, in my view, if the Government now wishes to allay public grievances and work for the well-being of the people, the Chief Executive and the officials should stop evading this matter. They should regain control, formulate a new mechanism and amend the legislation for expeditious admission of qualified overseas specialists to Hong Kong so as to meet our present needs. They should stop compromising and allowing such doctors to put the lives of Hongkongers at stake. This is our request.

Deputy President, I so submit.

MR SHIU KA-FAI (in Cantonese): First, I would like to thank Mr Tommy CHEUNG for proposing the motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors". This is not the first time Mr Tommy CHEUNG has proposed a motion of this kind. Many Hong Kong people must have heard over the years that Mr CHEUNG has been persistently pursuing this issue. When he first raised this issue, some people might think that he was targeting at professional doctors, but that has changed in recent years. For example, many Members in the Chamber are indignant today. They have expressed a lot of views because many people they have met are very dissatisfied with Hong Kong's healthcare services. Have we allocated funding for Hong Kong's healthcare services? Quite a number of Members have just referred to certain figures, including the $70 billion or so allocated each year. But why are so many people still dissatisfied? I believe that the shortage of doctors is one of the main reasons. In fact, it is always a matter of supply and demand.

Some Members have just referred to a lot of figures, such as a waiting time as long as three years. I will not further elaborate on this. However, Dr CHUI, I can share with you two specific cases. You used to work at public hospitals. The first case concerns the United Christian Hospital ("UCH") at which you used to work. A member of the public has told me that one day five years ago, his father suddenly felt great pain in his heart, and they went to UCH, where they were told that despite feeling a bit unwell, his father was fine. They were 1650 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 further told that his father could have a computed tomography scan of the heart, but the waiting time would be three years. They had no alternative but to spend over $10,000 on doing the scan at a private hospital. As soon as the examination was completed, a doctor told his father that 70%, 80% and 90% of his three blood vessels were clogged. He was asked to take a taxi rather than a minibus back to the public hospital lest anything should happen to him on his journey. He came back to UCH, where he was asked to pay tens of thousands of dollars for treatment. If he was unable to make the payment, he could only leave the hospital to raise money. How come such a thing could happen in Hong Kong? If you want to look for this person, I can introduce him to you. In this case, as this man was rich enough, he could seek treatment at a private hospital.

Let me quote another case. A member of the public, who recently had a minor accident, has contacted me. In fact, he usually seeks medical treatment from his private doctor, and he drives around his family members. As he had an accident, his private doctor advised him to apply for a Disabled Person's Parking Permit, which will allow him to park his car conveniently. He therefore went to a public hospital to book a date for assessing his injury and obtaining a certificate. However, he called me the day before yesterday, saying that a date could be booked only in March 2022 and he needed to wait 1.5 years for assessing his injury and obtaining a certificate. Only after doing all this can he apply for a Disabled Person's Parking Permit. This man told me that if he was allowed to spend money on injury assessment at a private hospital, he would happily do so, but the Government required that he must do so at a public hospital. What should he do? Is this a problem with doctors?

Secretary, given an increasingly ageing population of Hong Kong, do you think the healthcare needs will increase or decrease as people get older? In recent years, Secretary Prof Sophia CHAN has been studying the regulation of medical beauty services, which requires more doctors. Following the passage of the Private Healthcare Facilities Bill last year, the relevant facilities must come under the charge of doctors, and each doctor can take charge of three facilities. But where do these doctors come from? Will doctors from public hospitals not switch to these facilities? The Government is also going to enact legislation on regulating the use of medical devices for cosmetic purposes, requiring that simple tasks that can be performed by beauticians previously must now all be performed by doctors. In that case, will doctors not switch to these premises? Do public hospitals have sufficient manpower?

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1651

Dr Pierre CHAN has said just now that we have many doctors, but the Government refuses to accept them. I was perplexed and surprised upon hearing his remarks. One of his justifications concerns a public housing estate, which has around 1 000 to 2 000 residents, and there used to be a doctor who rented a shop there for treating elderly persons. However, due to exorbitant rental, this doctor has relocated, and residents have to turn to public hospitals for treatment. Thus there are many people who seek treatment at public hospitals. He talked about the relocation of a doctor due to exorbitant rental. Frankly speaking, they are real doctors rather than peanut sellers. How expensive can the rental of a shop in a public housing estate be? His saying is perplexing. Another justification of his is that while hospitals in other places are usually far away, hospitals in Hong Kong are usually nearby, and thus these other places need more doctors. Hospitals in Hong Kong are indeed nearby, but what if a hospital is in sight? Even if a hospital is in sight, it still needs to make an appointment and a three-year wait. As Dr Pierre CHAN is not present, I call out his name and ask him to come back to give me a reply. I am truly perplexed.

Deputy President, simply put, this is actually merely a problem with supply and demand. In this Chamber today, except for those two Members, most other Members not only express their views but also their anger. Would Dr CHIANG Lai-wan seek treatment at public hospitals? She says that she always seeks treatment at private hospitals, but having talked with many members of the public, she is saddened that people have to wait as long as three years for healthcare services or more than one year for an operation. Some people say that it is even harder to see a doctor than to see the God of Death. So, what is the Government doing? How can it allow a bunch of people from the Medical Council of Hong Kong to call the shots? Given the huge amount of funding allocated to the healthcare system of Hong Kong and the large number of elderly people in the future, the Government should not delay any longer. I recollect that Dr LEUNG Ka-Lau of the last term, whose whereabouts are unknown to me now, toppled the relevant bill. Is Dr Pierre CHAN capable of doing the same thing this time around? I hope that the Secretary will expeditiously and properly address the future healthcare needs of so many people, or else they will all turn to you.

Thank you, Deputy President.

1652 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I have heard a number of Honourable colleagues speak today. I do not know how many there are, but there should be more than 20. I very much agree with their arguments that there is indeed a shortage of doctors in Hong Kong, but one or two Honourable colleagues, in particular, said that the supply of doctors is very sufficient. Mr SHIU Ka-fai has also given examples like this just now. They said that Hong Kong is a small place and hospitals are just a short distance away, so there is no need to set up a hospital in each small village like foreign countries do given the long distance. However, rightly as Mr SHIU Ka-fai has suggested, Hong Kong's problem is that even if there is a hospital, people still have to wait for three years for medical treatment.

(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)

I had a friend who was a fisherman and lived in Cheung Chau. He had problems on both knees. He had to wait for three years for one of his knees to be operated on, and then he had to wait for another three years for the operation on the other knee. He passed away while waiting, so operation was no longer necessary. After waiting for another 10 years or so, a bone collector could be engaged to collect his bones and deal with his knee problems at that time. In this way, the supply of doctors in Hong Kong is not as ample as they have suggested. Now we have to think about the justifications.

Today, I have listened to the arguments of the two Members of the opposition camp―the remaining two. I find that their arguments are exactly the same as the Government's. They thought that everything was sufficient, as long as there was no increase in demand. Take parking spaces as an example, people will not buy cars so long as there is no increase in parking spaces. To give another example, vessel owners can berth their vessels at the nearby Shekou as there are not enough berthing spaces in typhoon shelters. So are the authorities now forcing Hongkongers to seek medical treatment in the neighbouring Shenzhen? It does not matter even if it is really the case. As the Greater Bay Area will be easily accessible in the future, people can go there for medical treatment. But this justification is by no means valid.

Let me talk about the situation of public hospitals, but on the whole, one of the reasons for the shortage of doctors is the good healthcare benefits in Hong Kong over the past years. In my view, public healthcare in Hong Kong is now a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1653 public welfare service. This is not what I said, but what the Hospital Authority said, because healthcare expenditure is heavily subsidized, as much as 90%, accounting for 2.6% of the Gross Domestic Product. In public hospitals, the hospital fees for Hong Kong residents are merely $100 to $200, which already include meals, beds and CT scans―all-inclusive. Even for operations at the highest level, such as liver transplant or kidney transplant, $100 will suffice. Is it very cheap? This even attracts people who have emigrated elsewhere to return to Hong Kong for medical treatment because of the poor healthcare in foreign countries. Back to the days when I was living in the United Kingdom, I went to a local clinic to seek medical treatment. They would only ask patients to take antibiotics, go home and drink more water. Only those who were dying would be sent to hospitals. For this reason, those who have emigrated elsewhere will return to Hong Kong to seek medical treatment. When all these people return to Hong Kong to seek medical treatment, the demand will be massive.

How do private hospitals operate? I will not talk about private hospitals for the moment, but take the kind of clinics I have mentioned earlier as an example, their qualities vary greatly―I actually wanted to say poor. About five or six years ago, I sprained my ankle when playing basketball and went to a clinic for treatment. It was a very long wait at the clinic, about one hour, so do not think that few people sought treatment. When I entered the doctor's room, I said I sprained my ankle and asked him to examine it, but he kept his head down the entire time and did not look at me at all. He only asked me if it hurt, where I sprained myself, how I did so, etc., and then told me to wait outside to get the medicine. I said, "Doctor, I have not even taken my socks off and you have not touched my ankle even once, so you are telling me to leave? Can you examine it first?" He told me to leave after less than three minutes of consultation and charged me $370. He was really ridiculous. Then he asked if a claim form had to be filled in, which meant whether I needed to make a claim with the insurance company. When I answered in the affirmative, he changed his fee to $500. For elderly persons seeking medical treatment at clinics in public housing estates, even though it can be said that there are sufficient clinics, are doctors in such clinics of good quality? It is not necessarily a good thing to be able to diagnose illnesses such as cold or cough in just three minutes. For this reason, even in the private market, there is a shortage of doctors, let alone in public hospitals.

Secondly, I want to especially mention―oh no, it has suddenly escaped my mind―it is about transport and what Dr CHENG Chung-tai has just especially mentioned―oh no, I have suddenly forgotten what that was and what I wanted to 1654 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 say―let me check my script. Right, the attrition rate is at a record high. I have heard a lot of views from the opposition camp that due to the language barrier, Mainland healthcare workers or overseas healthcare workers should not be allowed to sit the same examination. I will not discuss whether they should sit the same examination for now, but the opposition camp has made numerous arguments in the past for gaining political advantages, hoping to sever the ties between the Hong Kong society and the Mainland. These include the last time when the Mainland medical team came to Hong Kong to assist in the COVID-19 testing earlier, they said that the Mainland did so to obtain people's DNA for matching, probably aiming at removing people's kidneys, and so on. They were drumming up their political advantages here. That has been their biggest premise, which they have extended to the healthcare system of Hong Kong, including the previous political strike, right? Honourable colleagues also remember the political strike staged by healthcare workers.

Therefore, up until now, people still only have a sketchy knowledge of the healthcare standards in the Mainland, which is extremely one-sided. I will not go into whether the overall healthcare standards of Hong Kong or the Mainland are higher or lower, but Mainland healthcare professionals must have their merits, right? They claim that Mainland healthcare workers do not speak the language in Hong Kong, but can English-speaking healthcare workers who returned to Hong Kong from overseas give full play to their skills in Hong Kong? This is not necessarily the case. How many people in Hong Kong speak Chinese, i.e. Cantonese? At least 98%. I really do not know how many people can speak fluent English, but they are certainly not more than those speaking Cantonese. However, how many people who can speak Putonghua or other dialects but do not speak English? There are also many.

In this respect, Mainland talents and professionals who have come to Hong Kong do have their edge. Let me cite an example. The two Honourable colleagues sitting behind me often converse in Chiu Chow Dialect. I have no idea what they are saying. Therefore, though not every member of the Mainland medical team has outstanding performance in terms of healthcare skills and techniques, but can we make use of their capabilities and allow them to undertake specific areas of work in Hong Kong under limited registration? It is a proposition that can be considered. They may have communication problems at the front line … When they first arrive in Hong Kong, they may not be able to handle patients who come in speaking English. On the standards of Mainland healthcare professionals, I believe that their English is okay as they were able to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1655 assist in tackling the coronavirus epidemic in Italy. Regardless of whether their English is good or not, but if they can provide services for some people, is it feasible to refer suitable patients to this group of healthcare professionals for treatment? The authorities can build a hospital and refer suitable patients to it for treatment. This can also relieve the healthcare manpower in Hong Kong by transferring the local staff to the accident and emergency department or to the front line to treat ordinary Hongkongers. Is it feasible? In fact, every year, a lot of people coming to Hong Kong from the Mainland need such services. For example, as Hong Kong has set up a hospital in Shenzhen, why has the Mainland not commented that healthcare professionals from Hong Kong are of poor quality (The buzzer sounded) … Actually, the problem is …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Steven HO, please stop speaking immediately.

MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, on the question of whether or not the healthcare manpower in Hong Kong is adequate, I believe that the views vary with time, and different government officials or people also have different views. Take the Secretary as an example, when I discussed with her the keen demand for setting up a 24-hour clinic on Lamma Island given the lack of healthcare workers to assist residents living on the remote island in times of need, the Secretary said that there was a shortage of manpower. When some healthcare workers wanted to organize a strike or initiate industrial action, they said they were drowning in work and lashed out at the shortage of manpower. Yet, today, when Mr Tommy CHEUNG proposed the motion calling for the importation of overseas doctors or non-locally trained doctors to alleviate the shortage of healthcare manpower in Hong Kong, they denied the shortage of doctors in Hong Kong. In fact, at different times, government officials or different representatives will say different things. Whether we are lacking healthcare manpower and whether manpower should be imported is like an illusion. They will only say what they want to say depending on the situation.

Nonetheless, there are certain facts which the Secretary or the Hospital Authority ("HA") must face squarely. If there is sufficient healthcare manpower in Hong Kong, why public dental services merely provide tooth extraction service but not crowning or fillings? Whenever we request for improvement in dental services, the Secretary will say that there is a shortage of manpower. If there is a shortage of manpower, the number of training places should be increased as 1656 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 training takes time. Nonetheless, the Secretary is unwilling to increase the places, so we propose to import overseas manpower. Why not? If it is said that there is adequate healthcare manpower, will she please tell the public why the waiting time for ophthalmology consultation is 174 weeks and that for medicine specialty is 145 weeks―Mr Wilson OR has mentioned this just now? In other words, a patient has to wait for three years for ophthalmologist consultation, and may have become blind by then. As for medicine specialty, the patient may only have minor illness initially but the prolonged wait will lead to more problems. That is to say, "seeking treatment before the illness deteriorates" is merely a myth, nothing more than talk. We should not believe that.

When the waiting time is so long and if healthcare manpower is adequate, does it mean that the efficiency of HA is so low that the people of Hong Kong have to wait for such a long time? Hence, I ask the Secretary to tell us whether the long waiting time at present should be attributed to shortage of healthcare manpower or the low efficiency of HA? If it is due to the low efficiency of HA, why is the Government unwilling to act on the motion I moved on 5 June 2019 in this Council on reforming HA even after a year? So far, no one is willing to acknowledge whether the healthcare manpower in Hong Kong is adequate. Therefore, I implore the Secretary to tell us about the manpower situation of the healthcare sector and what she intends to do about it.

In fact, regarding the training places for doctors in Hong Kong, the number was reduced from 300 to 280 in 2002-2003, but increased to 320 in 2009 and to 470 in 2016-2017 in response to the demand of society. So, when will the first batch of medical students who have taken up the additional 150 training places in 2016-2017 graduate? It will be 2022. They will complete their six-year medicine programme next year, and we will have to wait until 2029 for them to complete the specialist programme. As such, I would like to make a clear analysis of whether there are enough doctors in Hong Kong with the additional 150 training places each year.

First, we have to examine two issues. The first issue is about the manpower wastage of HA. Let us look at the period between 2009 and 2019. The overall staff wastage rose from 6% to 10%, meaning an increase in wastage rate. The attrition rate of doctors also increased from 4% to 6%. In other words, the attrition rates of doctors and staff on a whole are on the rise. If the staff wastage situation deteriorates and keeps escalating, will the Secretary tell us how the authorities will replenish the manpower in future?

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Let us look at the situation in Singapore again. In 2004, they launched a programme in response to the ageing population to find solutions to the problem of an ageing population. After setting up a committee in 2004, new policies were promptly proposed in 2006 to adjust some policies in the light of the ageing population, including increasing the number of healthcare training places and the number of beds and admitting overseas doctors, while at the same time introducing measures to support the active elderly. The relevant initiatives are now ready for implementation. They started in 2003 and came up with the relevant policies in 2006. Now, they are ready for implementation. In comparison with Hong Kong, the capacity of the healthcare system of Singapore is constantly expanding in response to the ageing population. Besides, they are facing another wave of retirement of healthcare workers. In 2009, Hong Kong's population was 40% larger than that of Singapore and had 60% more doctors than Singapore at the time. Yet, today, when our population is still 30% larger than that of Singapore, the manpower of doctors in Hong Kong is lagging behind Singapore. The number of doctors in Singapore, which used to be 60% fewer than Hong Kong, has caught up with us at once and increased significantly. How do they replenish their manpower? They do not merely rely on local training but have also imported overseas manpower to solve the problem immediately.

In the face of the ageing population in Hong Kong and the increasing shortage of doctors, the Government so far has merely indicated that more hospitals will be built. Nonetheless, regarding where the doctors will come from after the increase in hospital beds, I have not seen any concrete measures implemented by the Government. Hence, I think the motion proposed by Mr Tommy CHEUNG today warrants the Government's consideration, and I hope Members can help Hong Kong cope with the development of the ageing population. President, I so submit.

DR JUNIUS HO (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr Tommy CHEUNG for moving this motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors". Many Honourable colleagues have already talked about the purpose of this motion, which is, simply put, to tackle the problem of shortage of doctors in Hong Kong.

The existing mechanism seems to be somewhat ineffective, with all of us being caught in dire straits. What should we do then? To start with, I would like to commend the majority of doctors in public hospitals for their dedication 1658 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 and commitment to providing first-class healthcare services to Hong Kong people. Recently, a colleague of mine was attacked while manning a street booth. He went to a public hospital for treatment, where he received excellent services and the support was pretty satisfactory. Yet, what was the most undesirable? He had to wait for three and a half hours there. Patients of emergency cases will certainly be treated, but even if it is not an emergency case, it is extremely undesirable for patients to experience delays due to waiting, or even if their conditions worsen as a result of such delays. Therefore, what should we do? Mr Tommy CHEUNG cited a bunch of past examples. Do doctors in Hong Kong adopt protectionism such that they would edge out overseas doctors? It is understandable that protectionism exists in every profession, not only doctors but also lawyers. Yet, when we are talking about saving lives and providing emergency relief, such kind of protectionism should be minimized since human life is at stake.

I would like to share with the Under Secretary that, firstly, the manpower of doctors is indeed insufficient, as the figures have already illustrated. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average is 3.4 doctors serving every 1 000 people, while the figure of Singapore is more than two. Yet, the ratio in Hong Kong is only 1.9. Mrs Regina IP has suggested that we need an addition of 3 300 doctors if we wish to catch up with Singapore. That said, given the speed of training of doctors at present, we can only achieve it in a decade or two. In addition, the attrition rate is so high, why is it so? Insufficient manpower is a matter of fact.

Second, the Government has given away its power for no reason. Why has it not handled the matter even though it has the power to do so, but just handed it over to the Medical Council of Hong Kong ("MCHK") instead? If MCHK can be more lenient in handling this matter, and do not put up so many barriers―there are many doors remain in the middle although the main door has been opened, and there are still many small doors behind after opening the middle doors. These layers and layers of barriers are merely man-made obstacles. Speaking of whether those doctors are qualified, they must be qualified. Another point is the language issue. Actually, a doctor need not communicate with the patient if the latter is in a coma, and the doctor can still provide treatment for the patient. Why bother about whether they speak Chinese, English, Cantonese or other languages? They should be allowed to come to Hong Kong as long as they hold a licence.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1659

Therefore, while Honourable colleagues are now discussing how those conditions for limited registration should be narrowed down, the problem is actually very simple. We only need to add a new arrangement to the existing mechanism. It is just like when there is arterial blockage in the heart, we can only undergo a coronary artery bypass grafting ("CABG") surgery if a percutaneous coronary intervention procedure is impossible. I thus suggest that the Government should undergo this CABG surgery. Apart from allowing MCHK to admit doctors to practise in Hong Kong, can the Director of Health admit doctors if MCHK fails to process it quickly enough? These doctors will be employed to work in HA or serve in the Department of Health anyway. Why must the decision be made by MCHK? Did those doctors obtain their licence by fraudulent means? Did they buy themselves the licence? Are the authorities incapable of making evaluation? It is just similar to a job interview, one can figure out whether the applicants indeed possess the abilities in just three minutes, unless their certificate is forged. Therefore, actually the Government does not need to make a fuss about it, but it should open up another way so as to give itself the power instead.

As we can see in many ordinances, the directors and commissioners, be they the Commissioner of Customs and Excise or the Commissioner of Inland Revenue, are certainly conferred with the ultimate discretionary power in the end. This is a general procedure and discretionary power can be exercised under special circumstances. But sorry, what I can see in Cap. 161 and Cap. 164 … What does Cap. 161 say? According to my understanding, the Medical Registration Ordinance only confers such power to MCHK, whereas the Director of Health is only responsible for clerical work, and to keep a register. Why can the Director of Health not admit doctors? I mean, these doctors can come to Hong Kong through the avenue offered by office A, and they may also come through the avenue offered by office B. Nevertheless, if I were the Director, of course it is up to me to decide. In addition, the case for Cap. 164, i.e. the Nurses Registration Ordinance, is the same. They even do not possess the power to admit nurses as they have handed it over to the Nursing Council of Hong Kong. How come they are so stupid to tie their own hands?

What did Mr ZHANG Xiaoming and Ms Winnie TAM say yesterday? At the 30th anniversary of the promulgation of the Basic Law, what do we need nowadays? We need an executive-led administration and people who love the country and Hong Kong. If some people stand in the way, we should simply throw them out. The Government has the right to decide the number of doctors 1660 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 allowed to come to Hong Kong. All it has to do is to consider whether it is in line with public interest and whether there exists any ground of public interest. Yet, patients now have to wait for such a long time. I would not interfere with the practice of private doctors, I have no intention to break the "rice bowl" of others, nor do I wish to introduce competition. I merely wish to solve the problems of HA and the medical department. As long as there is sufficient manpower, I will drive them away and reject their licence renewal if they do not renew their contract upon completion. So why bother talking about issues regarding limited licences and unlimited licences? Let us get to the point, what the authorities ought to do is to get back their power. Why do they have to tie their own hands? Are they an executive-led administration? Are they going to honour the oath they made in swearing allegiance to the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and upholding the Basic Law? If so, they must amend these two ordinances immediately to confer themselves with the power. In that way, they can admit as many doctors as they wish. Do not let the patients wait a few more hours, they might lose their lives at any time.

Thank you, President.

IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, I first thank Mr Tommy CHEUNG for moving the original motion. There is indeed a strong demand in society for importing more experienced and quality non-locally trained doctors to Hong Kong with a view to alleviating the shortage of doctors in the public healthcare system and effectively coping with the demand for healthcare services arising from Hong Kong's ageing population. Besides, the community considers that the current limited registration system is not very effective. I hereby declare that I am a serving member of the Hospital Authority ("HA") but I have no pecuniary interest in it. My term of office will have actually reached six years by the end of this month and I will have to step down.

President, as the saying goes, human life is of paramount importance. Healthcare is a very important livelihood issue. Therefore, the Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong ("BPA") has all along been gravely concerned about how the healthcare standards of Hong Kong can be improved. As a matter of fact, the general public have increasingly high expectations for healthcare, and the related issues not only involve disease treatment and hospital services, but also include health promotion, disease prevention, balanced resource allocation and the sustainable development of the healthcare system. In view of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1661 this, BPA established the Hygiene and Health Committee ("the Committee") in October 2018, which consists of members from various healthcare professions and is specifically responsible for exploring and studying related healthcare policies, so as to make recommendations to the authorities for improvement. In the early days of its inception, the Committee had already put forward nine major proposals to the Government. These include strengthening public―private partnership among healthcare institutions, making the Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme more attractive, improving the mechanism for subsidies on drug costs, nurturing more locally trained healthcare professionals, and promoting medical and health cooperation within the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area.

President, the number of first-year-first-degree places funded by the University Grants Committee ("UGC") is currently maintained at about 15 000 per year, which has in turn limited the number of funded places for healthcare disciplines. For this reason, the Committee suggested that the Government should increase the overall number of funded places to train more local professionals for which there is a keen demand in society. In the light of the future demand for healthcare manpower, apart from regularizing and increasing the number of places under the Study Subsidy Scheme for Designated Professions/Sectors ("the Scheme"), the Government should also further review and expand the scope and number of places in respect of the healthcare disciplines covered by the Scheme to respond to the aspiration of the community for additional healthcare manpower. However, as it takes time to train healthcare professionals, the manpower shortage of healthcare professionals cannot be addressed simply through increasing publicly-funded training places.

Hong Kong has been during the past six months or so suffering much from the ravages of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 ("COVID-19") epidemic, for the past six months or so and this has made the shortage of healthcare professionals an even more pressing problem. I believe that the Honourable colleagues here can vividly remember how most of our socio-economic activities have been greatly affected since the outbreak of the third wave of the COVID-19 epidemic in Hong Kong. In July and August this year, the anti-epidemic situation was very critical, with double-digit growth in the number of confirmed cases for 40-odd days in a row. Large-scale testing can help identify asymptomatic patients in the community and cut the transmission chain of the virus, and is therefore recognized worldwide as the most effective anti-epidemic measures. However, the HKSAR Government had a very limited testing capacity. Thanks 1662 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 to the timely support and assistance from the Central Government, it decided to launch the 14-day voluntary Universal Community Testing Programme ("the Programme") since 1 September after meticulous planning. Over 10 000 Hong Kong people participated in the work of the Programme, including 6 500 healthcare personnel and thousands of staff responsible for administrative, online booking, security and other supporting duties. Noticeably, a nucleic acid test support team of some 600 members was dispatched from the Mainland to Hong Kong. Led by the Deputy Director of the National Health Commission's Medical Administration Bureau as the chief leader, the team comprised healthcare and disease control and prevention professionals from Guangdong, Guangxi and Fujian. They conducted tests in shifts around the clock with selfless devotion to support Hong Kong and eventually collected over 1.78 million specimens and identified, directly and indirectly, 42 confirmed cases.

President, we certainly have to urge the HKSAR Government to allocate more resources to train local healthcare talents proactively. However, solely relying on locally trained talents may be far from sufficient to meet the actual needs. In the event of a large epidemic outbreak, the problem of shortage of healthcare talents will become particularly obvious. This time, the healthcare personnel from Hong Kong and the Mainland have put the fight against the epidemic as their first priority and they have made concerted and all-out efforts with the health of the public in mind. Not only have they helped identify the asymptomatic patients in the community and cut the transmission chain of the virus, but also provided valuable information and experience on disease control and prevention in the future.

President, the HKSAR Government should, on one hand, expeditiously explore and formulate a new mechanism for importing experienced and quality non-locally trained healthcare professionals more flexibly, such as the children of Hong Kong people who studied medicine overseas and have acquired professional qualifications. In addition to doctors, the Government should also consider introducing such related professionals as medical laboratory technologists to alleviate the shortage of healthcare manpower in the public healthcare system.

On the other hand, the HKSAR Government should actively promote Hong Kong's integration into the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area and expand medical and health cooperation. As a matter of fact, Hong Kong and other cities in the Greater Bay Area enjoy their own advantages in the healthcare LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1663 industry and the overall healthcare standards have long been at the top international level. As the Mainland places greater emphasis on the combined use of Chinese and Western medicines, Hong Kong and the Mainland can complement each other's strengths. In addition, more Hong Kong people will choose to reside or spend their twilight years on the Mainland in the future. Hence, the Government should proactively strive for and assist Hong Kong people in setting up hospitals and health and elderly care centres as well as conducting medical training in order to promote the development of healthcare professions in the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area. The Government should also expand the scope of application of the Health Care Vouchers to the hospitals or clinics in the Pearl River Delta cities of the Greater Bay Area and improve the cross-border ambulance services, so as to afford more comprehensive protection to the Hong Kong people living in the Mainland.

President, I so submit (The buzzer sounded) … and support the passage of the motion moved by Mr Tommy CHEUNG.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, please stop speaking.

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I rise to speak in support of this motion on "Formulating a new mechanism for importing non-locally trained doctors" moved by Mr Tommy CHEUNG.

As I pointed out during the Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session on 9 May last year, while the Medical Council of Hong Kong ("MCHK") had passed the proposal to introduce overseas doctors amid criticisms, that was merely a bitter victory. I described the proposal as a "blood transfusion" without putting a stop to the "bleeding". With the shortage of doctors in public hospitals, healthcare manpower is still insufficient and in straitened circumstances. Therefore, the healthcare sector (such as Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, our former colleague in this legislature) has been fighting for better working conditions for healthcare personnel, especially doctors, over the years.

On 12 April last year, I also pointed out that reforming MCHK was of paramount importance, whereas "doctors harbouring each other" should not be allowed as it would undermine public interest. The epidemic has not broken out back then, and we often heard the views put forward by healthcare personnel (especially doctors). I always find them somewhat contradictory. 1664 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Many secondary schoolmates of mine are doctors and lawyers, both of which are professionals. Of course, I also understand that as we have toiled so hard to complete a professional degree, people are reluctant to see the professional quality being lowered so easily and the requirements being relaxed. However, to be frank, with globalization, the legal profession is far more open-minded and adopts a more open attitude in this respect. For the healthcare sector, I only often hear about the shortage of healthcare manpower. During the fight against the epidemic, some healthcare personnel even disregarded people's lives and livelihood as they insisted ongoing on strike for political reasons or for fear of getting into trouble.

In fact, the healthcare sector indeed has both gains and losses during the fight against the epidemic. Some healthcare personnel have earned greater respect. They are willing to adopt an open attitude and cooperate with Mainland testing laboratories. They also propose that Hong Kong should adopt less expensive methods and conduct research in collaboration with the Mainland, thereby making the tests more affordable to the public, so that people will not have to spend big bucks on tests. That said, there are also some healthcare personnel, especially some so-called "doctor representatives", who claim that they do not speak Putonghua and do not advocate such kind of communication.

I recall two students of mine, one of them had completed his medical studies in the United States ("US") and was already qualified, but he later switched to study law because he intended to return to work in Hong Kong. Since he was not qualified to work as a local doctor with full registration after returning to Hong Kong, he finally decided to change his profession. He has been working in the US for almost 10 years. In fact, I find it such a pity. Therefore, as far as examinations and interviews are concerned, I hope doctors will be more open-minded about their profession because recruitment of additional manpower is a must. That said, can our medical schools provide sufficient manpower? Will locally trained medical graduates go on strike for political reasons at any time? Members of the public have indeed become badly frightened now.

This is the best timing for taking actions. Speaking of these so-called non-local healthcare personnel, I think that in addition to those coming from overseas, including the US and other countries, who can meet the medical standards and criteria of Hong Kong, there are also excellent healthcare personnel in the Mainland. Especially in fighting epidemics, whether it is during the SARS outbreak and this COVID-19 epidemic, their overall performance has been LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1665 very outstanding. Upholding a professional attitude, they always stand by the patients in these utterly dangerous and difficult times. I have watched the whole series of a TV drama depicting their stories, which has fully demonstrate their professionalism. On this front, frankly speaking, I cannot say that we do not have such good doctors in Hong Kong. We also have a lot of good doctors who are willing to give their best and risk their lives. They deserve our due recognition. Yet, there are also black sheep who have undermined their image among the public.

Therefore, when it comes to training, I think Hong Kong should consider establishing a third medical school in addition to the two existing ones. We should even capitalize on the advantages of the Greater Bay Area to integrate Chinese and Western medicine there so as to nurture a huge pool of talents. With more patients there, more cases are available for internship to allow interns to gain sufficient experience. As for overseas doctors coming to Hong Kong, we should have more trust in them. In fact, they are already top-notch talents and should not be required to pass all the examinations before they can become registered doctors to practise locally.

We, the legal sector, have also relaxed our regulations nowadays. Overseas lawyers who possess five-year practising qualifications will be admitted as solicitors after returning to Hong Kong upon passing certain examinations specifically administered for overseas lawyers. They can then start working in Hong Kong. Cooperation on a global level is what we need amid globalization and the current epidemic. Hong Kong has to admit that we only have a population of 7 million people. Even if our patients can provide some cases, it may not be comparable in any way to the population of more than 1 billion people on the Mainland. In addition, many outstanding talents from the US as well as those from many neighbouring Southeast Asian countries are actually willing to come to work in Hong Kong, we thus should strongly support them.

Therefore, I definitely hope that the healthcare sector in Hong Kong can absorb overseas talents, especially doctors and nurses. We are forced to yield when there is manpower shortage. It seems that everyone is afraid of them when they stage protests and go on strike. We need not worry if there are sufficient talents. They can go on strike as they like, and we do not need to care about it even if they keep going on strike. We also have doubts about their professional ethics. The professionalism and standards of doctors are of the utmost importance to patients.

1666 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

In closing, I think Hong Kong should now proceed to implement compulsory universal testing, and I believe that the healthcare sector will mount resistance. I hope the Secretary will strive to eliminate the resistance (The buzzer sounded) … so as to reform our doctor registration regime.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, please stop speaking immediately.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now call upon the Under Secretary for Food and Health to speak.

UNDER SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I thank Members for expressing their views on the motion just now. In 2017, the Government published the Report of the Strategic Review on Healthcare Manpower Planning and Professional Development which pointed out that there was a shortage of doctors. The Government attaches great importance to the issue of the shortage of doctors, and concurs that it is necessary to increase the supply of doctors through different measures to alleviate the problem.

I would like to further explain to Members on the Government's work in attracting non-locally trained doctors to practise in Hong Kong. The Food and Health Bureau set up a multi-party platform in March last year, engaging representatives from the Medical Council of Hong Kong ("MCHK"), the Hong Kong Academy of Medicine ("HKAM"), the Hong Kong Medical Association, the Hospital Authority ("HA"), two local medical schools and the Department of Health to discuss feasible options for increasing the manpower of doctors. In the past year or so, a number of measures to attract non-locally trained doctors to practise in Hong Kong have been implemented. For instance, for non-locally trained specialist doctors who have passed the Licensing Examination and have worked full-time in the public healthcare sector for three years, MCHK has, since August last year, shortened their period of assessment from six months to two days, which is conducive to attracting more experienced specialists to work in Hong Kong. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1667

Besides, four colleges of HKAM (namely Emergency Medicine, Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, and Paediatrics) have agreed to admit non-locally trained doctors with recognized pre-intermediate qualifications for continuation of their specialist training in Hong Kong on the premise that the specialist training opportunities for local doctors will not be compromised. HA has updated the recruitment requirements for doctors with limited registration in these specialties since April this year. We expect that these measures will attract more eligible non-locally trained doctors, particularly those who are the children of Hong Kong people, to serve under limited registration in Hong Kong's public healthcare sector, thus alleviating the manpower shortage problem.

Taking the opportunity of the implementation of the Medical Registration (Amendment) Ordinance 2018, HA has reviewed and enhanced the Limited Registration Scheme ("the Scheme") in different aspects with the aim of attracting more non-locally trained doctors to practise in Hong Kong. Relevant measures include, since April 2019, expanding the scope of recruitment of non-locally trained doctors at the rank of Resident to all specialties, and recruiting non-locally trained doctors with specialist qualifications at the rank of Associate Consultant in eight specialties (namely Anaesthesia, Anatomical Pathology, Cardiothoracic Surgery, Otorhinolaryngology, Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Ophthalmology, Radiology, and Nuclear Medicine) where wastage of specialist doctors is more serious. All posts held by non-locally trained doctors under the Scheme are supernumerary posts created with additional government resources.

Moreover, in order to increase the promotion opportunities for non-locally trained doctors, those at the rank of Resident with five or more years of post-specialist qualification clinical experience in public hospitals will have the chance to be promoted to the rank of Associate Consultant. With the implementation of a series of enhancement measures, the number of non-locally trained doctors recruited by HA has increased. As at end of September this year, there are a total of 27 non-locally trained doctors serving under limited registration in public hospitals.

Job applications from non-locally trained doctors are still received under the Scheme. As usual, HA will assess the qualifications and experience of the applicants in accordance with the mechanism and arrange interviews for suitable candidates. For those who are eligible and considered suitable for appointment, HA will submit their limited registration applications to MCHK. Three 1668 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 non-locally trained doctors whose applications for limited registration were earlier approved by MCHK will report for duty between the end of this year and next year, by which time there will then be 30 non-locally trained doctors serving in public hospitals under limited registration.

Furthermore, since Members have raised some views and questions just now, I would like to provide some supplementary information. In respect of waiting time, the waiting time at different clusters and for different specialties under HA is currently divided into several categories, namely new urgent cases, new semi-urgent cases and new stable cases. About 30% to 40% of patients in the queue fall into the categories of new urgent cases and new semi-urgent cases. The median waiting time for new urgent cases is mostly less than one week; while the waiting time of semi-urgent cases is mostly five weeks or less.

In addition, HA has actually taken some measures to alleviate the workload of doctors. For example, the specialist outpatient services provided by nurses in different specialties (such as Rheumatology, Urology, Respiratory Medicine, Paediatrics, and Adolescent Psychiatry) have been strengthened, which helps alleviate the workload of doctors.

Regarding the issue of inter-communication or coordination between the public and private healthcare systems, in fact, the Government has all along been increasing the flow of patients from the public system to private doctors for treatment through different measures, including the Public Private Partnership Programmes, the use of Healthcare Vouchers, the doctors' networks in the District Health Centres and the Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme.

President, despite the divergent views expressed by Members in their speeches just now, they have the same objective of coming up with some proposals to increase the manpower of doctors in the public healthcare system. We will continue to communicate closely with various stakeholders and relevant organizations, and we also welcome proposals put forward by Members on how to increase the manpower of doctors in Hong Kong. The Government will study various proposals carefully and it is our ultimate goal to increase the manpower of doctors in the public healthcare system effectively.

President, I so submit. Thank you.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1669

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Tommy CHEUNG, you still have 1 minute 55 seconds to reply. Then, the debate will come to a close.

MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I would like to thank the 24 Members who have spoken. We can finally discuss livelihood issues seriously in the legislature.

I originally believed that no one would oppose any such measures proposed by the Liberal Party to shorten the waiting time for healthcare services, and to import experienced and quality overseas doctors without compromising service quality.

Regarding the speech of Dr CHENG Chung-tai, I will not say too much in response to it, as Mr Martin LIAO, Mr Vincent CHENG and Ms Elizabeth QUAT have already responded to his remarks. However, I would like to respond briefly to his comment about looting a burning house. In fact, I think that he is pouring oil on a flame, leaving one in the lurch, or showing scant regard for human life. The shortage of healthcare manpower is an indisputable fact. Frankly speaking, however, we can all see that he is incessantly politicizing livelihood issues. I do want to remind Members that KWOK Ka-ki, a former Member, and that gentleman I just mentioned were both elected in the New Territories West. In my view, electors in the New Territories West must realize that Members from the New Territories West who are present today are true representatives elected by them and are exactly doing things for them. But what have the two persons I mentioned just now been doing for them?

As for the speech of Dr Pierre CHAN, I would only like to remind him that I am not negating the examination system, but if he, LEUNG Ka-lau, a former Member, and CHOI Kin sit the examination some other day and pass it, I will agree that what he has said is correct. But if he fails the examination, should his licence be revoked?

President, I hope that the Government will seriously listen to the speeches of Members and refrain from repeating the old way in its reply.

Thank you for supporting the motion moved by me.

1670 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Tommy CHEUNG be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(Members raised their hands)

Dr CHENG Chung-tai rose to claim a division.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHENG Chung-tai has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for five minutes.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.

Functional Constituencies:

Mr Abraham SHEK, Mr Tommy CHEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Mr Steven HO, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr POON Siu-ping, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan, Mr Jimmy NG, Mr Holden CHOW, Mr SHIU Ka-fai, Mr CHAN Chun-ying, Mr LUK Chung-hung, Mr LAU Kwok-fan and Mr Kenneth LAU voted for the motion.

Dr Pierre CHAN voted against the motion.

THE PRESIDENT, Mr Andrew LEUNG, did not cast any vote.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1671

Geographical Constituencies:

Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr WONG Kwok-kin, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Paul TSE, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Ms Alice MAK, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Ms Elizabeth QUAT, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan, Dr Junius HO, Mr Wilson OR, Ms YUNG Hoi-yan, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-kwan and Mr Vincent CHENG voted for the motion.

Dr CHENG Chung-tai voted against the motion.

Mr Michael TIEN abstained.

THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 23 were present, 21 were in favour of the motion and 1 against it; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 18 were present, 16 were in favour of the motion, 1 against it and 1 abstained. Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the motion was passed.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Debate on motion with no legislative effect.

Mr LUK Chung-hung will move a motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion".

Mr CHAN Han-pan will move an amendment to the motion.

This Council will proceed to a joint debate on the motion and the amendment.

I will first call upon Mr LUK Chung-hung to speak and move the motion at a later stage. Then I will call upon Mr CHAN Han-pan to speak, but he may not move the amendment at this stage.

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The joint debate now begins. Members who wish to speak please press the "Request to speak" button.

I now call upon Mr LUK Chung-hung to speak and move the motion.

MOTION ON "ALLEVIATING ROAD TRAFFIC CONGESTION"

MR LUK CHUNG-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that the motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion", as printed on the Agenda, be passed.

As we all know, Hong Kong is a very densely populated city, and like other metropolises, space and time are so precious that they can even be described as luxury. Why do I say so? We all know that Hong Kong is a small but densely populated place with many vehicles and very limited living space. People live in very small "snail homes", and it is considered a great blessing to have a bedroom in one's home. When we go to work, we have to put up with traffic congestion. The fact that we get stuck in traffic jam every day has further compressed our time. In particular, wage earners living in New Territories West and New Territories North often have to travel to the urban area for work, and they have to spend two or even three hours each day commuting to and from work. Given less time to spare, the urbanites whose tempo of life is very fast have found their time even scarcer. Time has thus become most precious.

Hongkongers are known for their diligence and resilience. Our working hours are the longest in the world but what is more pathetic is the problem of traffic congestion that I mentioned just now, which costs us a great deal of time. But anyway, nothing can stop Hongkongers from going to work. When typhoon Mangkhut hit Hong Kong, Hongkongers went to work right after the Hong Kong Observatory cancelled all warning signals. From this we can see how hardworking Hongkongers are.

Hongkongers have worked so diligently and arduously but they often do not have enough time for sleep, and they can only make up for the lost sleep while being caught in traffic congestion. This is, of course, unhealthy. Nobody would wish to get stuck in traffic congestion. All that the people hope is to arrive at the workplace and be home after work as soon as possible, so that they can have more time to get together with their family, take some rest and develop their interests, thereby leading a balanced life.

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This is why we put forward this motion today in an effort to explore ways to alleviate the problem of traffic congestion in Hong Kong. I would like to make four key points. First, we should start from urban planning by stepping up efforts to help job seekers find jobs in the locality, so as to reduce the need for them to travel to other districts for work. More than half of the Hong Kong population take part in "grand migration" every day as they travel from the New Territories West to Kowloon or the Hong Kong Island for work. President, I am also one of them. Every day I travel from Tin Shui Wai to the Legislative Council for work and meetings by the West Rail or by bus. Sometimes I arrive at half past eight in the morning as I am very punctual and together with the wage earners, I travel to work by public transport jam-packed with commuters. In Hong Kong, the problem of traffic congestion is, by its nature, precisely an employment problem. Of course, my job is rather special as it is my own choice that I travel to Admiralty to attend meetings and to serve the people. However, many residents hope to work in their locality but given the lack of suitable jobs in the district, they can only travel a long way to other districts for work. As commercial buildings are mostly concentrated in districts on Hong Kong Island and in Kowloon, especially Kwun Tong in Kowloon East, the traffic is set to be seriously congested during peak commuting hours every day. The difference lies only in whether it is a minor traffic jam or a big one, for traffic congestion is definitely the order of the day.

Some time ago a survey was conducted by neitzens to find out the most tormenting place of work. Kwun Tong surely did not let us down as it topped the list because of the traffic there. Netizens added that the traffic congestion in Kwun Tong was also caused by flooding in rainy seasons and blockage in sewers, resulting in daily traffic congestion from the morning peak hours to the evening peak hours. Not only are the commuters affected, people who operate business or warehouses in the vicinity or the truck drivers nearby have suffered too. During the evening peak hours, we can see passengers waiting for buses and buses waiting for passengers at bus stops in Kwun Tong as the cycle of congestion repeats over and over again. Particularly on sweltering summer days or in times of rain, commuters who are waiting to get on a bus for work really have a hard time. I hope that the Secretary can spare some time to personally visit the district and take a look there even though he would be chided by the residents or workers. It is because the conditions are indeed intolerable. I urge the Secretary to pay a visit to the district to examine the actual situation.

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Let us look at the problem from another angle. Why are there not many employment opportunities in Tuen Mun, Yuen Long and Tin Shui Wai? In particular, the cases of Yuen Long and Tin Shui Wai are very interesting as there is not even a single commercial building while the only industrial zone has provided some but not many employment opportunities. This is why the residents often have to take up jobs in the urban area. Even though all the districts in Hong Kong may now be considered the urban area, the availability of jobs in Hong Kong, despite after decades of development, still remain in the traditional urban area and that is, Kowloon and Hong Kong Island. Therefore, in future planning, the Government must ensure that residents can live and work in the same district. The future development of Hung Shui Kiu and the Innovation and Technology Park in the Lok Ma Chau Loop are said to be creating 150 000 jobs and 50 000 jobs respectively. I hope that the Government is not merely drawing a picture of a cake to satisfy the hunger and that it will really translate its words into actions. The Government must not repeat the past mistake in developing new towns by telling the residents at first that they will be able find a job in the district but in the end, the residents have to suffer from traffic congestion on Tuen Mun Road when commuting to and from work every day.

Besides, I hope that diversified employment opportunities can be provided in new development areas to enable people to land a job suiting their different vocational skills and academic qualifications. The Government should also consider relocating some government offices to new development areas, in order to create jobs there. For example, the departments in Wai Chai Government Offices Compound have recently been relocated to different places respectively, and this is a good start.

Speaking of urban planning, roads in Hong Kong constitute a mere 3.7% of the land area. Comparing to 12% in Singapore, there is really a huge gap between us. The past decade saw a growth of close to 40% in the number of vehicles but the growth in roads was only 6%. Under such circumstances, how can traffic not be congested? So this has to do with Mr Frank CHAN too. I hope that in the development of transport, land development must go hand in hand with it. The Government should expedite land development and build more roads to form a reasonable urban planning layout, so that the flow of people and that of vehicles will be more even. Only in this way can traffic congestion be abated.

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The second key point is to expeditiously implement the recommendations in the Railway Development Strategy 2014. It is now 2020 and I would like to ask the Secretary this: Concerning this 2014 railway development strategy, how well has he done his homework? Of the seven projects, he handed in his homework only for two projects. President, when I said he handed in his homework, it does not mean that the projects have been completed, nor has the construction work commenced. It only means that proposals have been put forward whereas the other projects are simply nowhere to be seen. It has been two decades since the Northern Link was proposed and no concrete proposal has been put forward yet. The Government has only talked about it over and over again, and the residents have been waiting anxiously. Without comprehensive railway development, people will have to continue to use road transport.

As we all know in the past, many issues in Hong Kong have been politicized. Infrastructure development has been demonized and vilified, making it tremendously difficult to take forward many projects relating to the people's livelihood. However, it is true that the departments and government officials sometimes hold discussions without making decisions and make decisions without putting them into practice, and this indeed should not be encouraged. As a result, the development of railway has been very slow over the past few years. If we make a comparison with the neighbouring places, we will see that Shenzhen is certainly developing at an impressive speed. In 2004, Shenzhen had only two metro lines, namely, Line 1 (from Window of the World to Luohu) and Line 4 (from Fumin to Children's Palace). In 2020, there are already 11 lines in Shenzhen. According to a comparison of railway development among Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Singapore made by the Association of Hong Kong Railway Transport Professionals, the National Development and Reform Commission approved in 2015 the revised plan for the Shenzhen urban rail transit phase III development, under which eight railway projects were planned for construction in Shenzhen over a period from 2015 to 2020. Apart from the cancellation of phase III of Line 3 of Shenzhen Metro, all the other railway projects have been completed this year. So they are really progressing rapidly and they serve as a good example for us to follow. Singapore is not bad either, as they are building a Circle Line 6 with a length of 4 km and 3 new stations. The planning of this railway line started in 2013 and its construction, which commenced in 2017, is scheduled for completion in 2025.

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If we look at the Tung Chung Line Extension, which is all we have for now, actually it is just 1.3 km in length with 2 stations. It was already proposed by the Government in 2014―actually it was well before 2014 but let us take it as 2014 for the time being―and the MTR Corporation Limited is invited to submit a detailed plan and design only this year and what is more, construction will start only in 2023 and the target completion date will be 2029. How can such a pace alleviate road traffic congestion? This is why we have all along suggested to the Government that apart from expediting the pace of construction, more MTR extension lines should also be developed. But in response to our views, the Government either said that it would take them on board, which then prompted us to announce in the districts our success in campaigning for the construction of railway lines, but it turned out that the Government meant to conduct studies only, and it is not known when follow-up work will be carried out, or the Government simply rejected our views entirely. A case in point is the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link put forward by us for some two to three decades. We have also suggested the Government to study the development of a second North South Corridor, which is commonly known as East Rail Line 2, and develop the Siu Sai Wan Extension and a railway running through the mountain in Kowloon East. These projects are proposed in the hope of mitigating the traffic congestion in the districts. Particularly for the mountain railway in Kowloon East, I understand the concern expressed by the Bureau about the technical difficulties involved, but the Government should rise to the challenges because the housing development in areas around the Anderson Road Quarry Site will be a key component of population growth in future. Mass transport support facilities are lacking on the mountain, and as accessibility to the area currently relies only on the feeder services provided by minibuses and buses, there will be an impact on Kowloon East in future, especially Kwun Tong. After completion and population intake of the housing development at the Anderson Road Quarry Site, the absence of railway support services will give rise to more serious traffic congestion in Kwun Tong.

The third major problem is the difficulties with parking. We all know that there is a severe shortage of parking spaces in Hong Kong. Parking spaces are lacking in all 18 districts, and their shortage is particularly serious in Kowloon East as we often see cases of illegal parking, and drivers even double park or triple park on roads. Over the past 12 years, the number of vehicles has risen by 44% but that of parking spaces has grown by a mere 12%. The ratio of vehicles to parking spaces is only 1:1, which is far from enough because the need for a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1677 vehicle to be parked elsewhere away from its parking space at home should also be taken into account. Therefore, the ratio should at least be 1:1.5 for the parking spaces to be considered barely sufficient. This is also why people have parked their cars indiscriminately, resulting in serious traffic congestion in the urban area.

In this connection, I hope that the Government will provide underground parking spaces in developing new public buildings or new housing estates in future, or optimize the use of space at the existing parks to develop underground parking spaces. In respect of private development projects, the land grant conditions should include the requirement that sufficient public parking spaces should be provided by developers, in order to substantially increase the number of parking spaces and reduce cases of illegal parking, thereby maintaining smooth traffic on roads. I also hope that the Government will either provide incentives for developers or take the lead to build smart and automated multi-storey or underground car parks, in order to increase the supply of parking spaces by all means. Ultimately, the Government should revise the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines to ensure an appropriate supply of parking spaces to meet the needs of the community. We should not reduce the supply of parking spaces for fear of an excessive growth in the number of vehicles, just like throwing away the apple because of the core, or else illegally parked vehicles and traffic congestion would be seen everywhere.

The fourth key point is that I hope to see more transport fare concessions and subsidies offered by the Government. I know that the Secretary will certainly argue later that 90% of the people in Hong Kong travel by public transport, and see how he gets carried away now. But can it be more than 90%? We should continuously strive for improvement. To this end, one of the ways is to make transport fares less expensive, in order to attract patronage by passengers. I also hope that the tunnel tolls will be more reasonable, so as to reduce traffic congestion that may be caused by the toll levels. The Government should lower the current threshold for the Public Transport Fare Subsidy Scheme and set up a fare stabilization fund in an effort to encourage more people to take public transport, in order to reduce traffic congestion resulted from an excessive number of vehicles, especially private cars, running on roads.

I will leave a little time for my response to Members' views. Thank you, President.

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Mr LUK Chung-hung moved the following motion: (Translation)

"That Hong Kong has all along adopted the public transport policy of 'according priority to railway' to alleviate the problem of traffic congestion; yet, in recent years, the problem of road traffic congestion has remained serious, affecting people's daily commuting; in fact, problems have existed in Hong Kong in terms of traffic network planning, transport infrastructure facilities, road design and public transport management, thus resulting in increasingly serious road traffic congestion; in this connection, this Council urges the Government to expeditiously and comprehensively review public transport planning and policies to alleviate the problem of road traffic congestion; specific measures include:

(1) progressively relocating important business development areas to other districts when undertaking urban design and planning, and taking the lead to move government departments out of core business districts, so as to divert vehicular flows;

(2) expeditiously launching the Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study to comprehensively examine the roles and positioning of various public transport services and make planning for the expansion of road infrastructure;

(3) expeditiously implementing the various railway projects recommended in the Railway Development Strategy 2014 and making planning for future railway network as soon as possible, such as studying afresh the construction of the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link, studying the development of a second North South Corridor (East Rail Line 2) and the Siu Sai Wan Extension, so as to alleviate traffic congestion in various districts;

(4) increasing the supply of parking spaces for commercial vehicles and the public, including reviewing the ratio of the number of parking spaces to the number of vehicles in accordance with the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines, identifying more pilot sites for the provision of smart car parks in new development and redevelopment projects under the principle of 'single site, multiple uses', and encouraging private developers and government LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1679

departments to make good use of underground spaces of buildings for the provision of car parks; and at the same time, formulating measures to control the growth of private cars;

(5) proposing more measures to reduce or waive public transport fares and offer public transport fare concessions, such as reducing or waiving the tolls of government tunnels and bridges on various public transport modes, introducing a monthly pass scheme for inter-modal interchange by the Government, lowering the current threshold for the non-means tested Public Transport Fare Subsidy Scheme and setting up a fare stabilization fund, so as to encourage more people to take public transport;

(6) expeditiously reviewing the toll policy of government tunnels and bridges, including studying the introduction of standard tolls for the current three land tunnels and three road harbour crossings, so as to divert vehicular flows;

(7) providing park-and-ride concessions for public car parks in major public transport interchanges, and encouraging privately operated car parks to offer similar concessions; and

(8) stepping up the application of big data and innovative technology, including the provision of parking vacancy information, full introduction of a system to monitor black spots of illegal parking, and a feasibility study on introducing driver aid technology and the relevant legal framework, so as to relieve road traffic congestion."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr LUK Chung-hung be passed.

MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, having looked through the relevant information, I found that this motion should have been discussed in June last year. It has been delayed for a whole year before it can be discussed at this Legislative Council meeting. This reflects that over the past few years, constant filibustering acts have seriously disrupted the operation of the Legislative Council, and many livelihood issues have been delayed again and again. I am 1680 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 very pleased that we are finally able to resume rational discussion today. I have proposed my amendment today not because I oppose Mr LUK Chung-hung's motion. Rather, I hope to, through my amendment, supplement and enrich the relevant measures, and bring forward the proposals of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong ("DAB"). For this reason, DAB supports the original motion.

Regarding the perennial problem of traffic congestion, there have been different views over a period of time, and they can be summarized in three aspects. First, traffic congestion is sometimes caused by people or by the Government. For example, the Government has just announced the implementation of toll waiver for the Lantau Link today. This is a very good initiative that we have strived for over the years. The Government undertook to implement this initiative in the Policy Address only last year, and this year, action has already been taken. When two-way toll collection at the Lantau Link was being implemented years back, the entire area suffered traffic jam. In fact, traffic congestion problems at various tunnels or corners are caused by undesirable toll collection system or practice. For this reason, I think that adjust the tolls or abolish them altogether is a good way to properly address traffic congestion at tunnels nowadays. When vehicles scatter in front of toll booths and then converge to enter the tunnel, it will cause various traffic congestion problems. For this reason, I hope that the Government can expeditiously introduce an electronic toll collection system and abolish toll collection in certain areas for the convenience of the public. In fact, most tunnels in Hong Kong were built quite a number of years ago. Since money has been collected for so many years, toll collection should be abolished to reduce the transport costs of the public.

In addition, there are big problems with the construction of our public roads. The Secretary has indicated in private just now that 90% of people in Hong Kong take public transport in their journeys. However, the biggest problem is not that 90% of people take public transport, but that Hong Kong still suffers traffic congestion even though 90% of people take public transport. The reason is not that people insist on driving, as some 90% of people take public transport and the ratio can hardly be further raised. The major reason is that the growth of vehicles in Hong Kong is disproportionate to the growth of roads. The number of vehicles in Hong Kong was some 520 000 in 2003, and some 760 000 in 2017, an increase of 46% or an annual increase of 3%. The number of vehicles further grew to some 790 000 in 2019, among which private vehicles LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1681 already accounted for some 560 000. What is the growth rate of total length of roads in Hong Kong by 2020? It is a drop of 0.4%. The figure is far lower than the annual growth rate of vehicles in Hong Kong. Roads are unable to cope with the growth of vehicles. As roads are neither widened nor extended, and no growth is recorded, congestion is really caused by people in certain cases.

Moreover, many congestion problems in the urban areas are caused by double parking. Congestion arising from parking is very serious nowadays and there are four scenarios. First, indiscriminate parking due to no available parking space; unused parking spaces; parking spaces not used as vehicle owners are not aware of this; and vehicle owners who, instead of driving, want to park their vehicles and walk to the urban areas cannot find any parking spaces. The four scenarios are all directly related to parking spaces. The Government said years ago that it would develop a mobile application called "HKeMobility", which would provide information on various modes of public transport and walking routes. This seems to be impeccable, but now members of the public often criticize it for being not user-friendly. When one drives his car to a street and wants to know parking information in the vicinity, this application only provides information on a few government car parks but there is no data on private car parks. As no such data is available, the driver can only drive around to look for a parking space. For this reason, if the Government wants to avoid the scenario of a driver having to drive around to look for a parking space, it should expeditiously amend the legislation and collect data on all car parks in Hong Kong and then make public the data so that the market can develop some useful applications. The Government does not need to invest in the development of an application such as "HKeMobility" on its own, as it is not user-friendly at all. I hope that the Government will encourage the market to do so. This is the most practicable way forward.

Furthermore, regarding the scenarios of indiscriminate parking and unused parking spaces, there are too few wardens on the roads responsible for issuing fixed penalty tickets. Over the years, they have seen neither increase in their manpower nor improvement in their benefits. The various sorts of problems they encountered by them have not been resolved either. As there has been neither growth in our roads nor increase in our parking spaces, and indiscriminate parking is deteriorating, I hope that the Government will increase the number of wardens responsible for issuing fixed penalty tickets in areas where parking spaces are sometimes available, so that road traffic will be smoother and car owners will refrain from indiscriminate parking.

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All in all, Hong Kong is now facing severe traffic congestion, and we have come to a bottleneck. Several days ago the Secretary and I visited the local communities in the New Territories West to see what can be done to address traffic congestion in the urban areas. In fact, the best way is Park and Ride. Nowadays, all Park and Ride arrangements are implemented in the vicinity of railway stations. The Government uses railways as the backbone of its transport policy. All Park and Ride car parks are located at railway stations, so that people can drive to railway stations and leave by rail. However, this practice is no longer opportune because train compartments are already crammed. When people who pursue quality life choose to take the more comfortable buses, they cannot find any Park and Ride car parks at bus interchange stations.

For this reason, regarding traffic congestion on Hong Kong roads, the Government should revise the transport policy of Hong Kong. It should construct Park and Ride car parks on a large scale at certain public transport interchanges or bus interchange stations, so that people who reside in the rural areas and travel by car can park their cars there before travelling to the urban areas by bus. This can also effectively alleviate traffic congestion. In fact, there is also such a need in the urban areas. For example, there used to be two large car parks in the vicinity of Star Ferry Pier, where people living on Hong Kong Island could park their vehicles before taking a ferry to Kowloon. This was very convenient for them as they did not need to drive across any harbour crossings. Nowadays, as the pier has been relocated to a faraway place, car owners have only one option, namely the car park at IFC, which charges high fees. As such, car owners simply drive across the harbour, thus giving rise to many traffic congestion problems. For this reason, I hope that the authorities can learn a lesson from the bitter experience, and introduce a more flexible car parking policy to alleviate the traffic problem of Hong Kong nowadays.

In addition, regarding amending the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines, I once proposed a motion in this Council. Amendments were made in 2014 following the passage of the motion. No further amendments have since been made. I hope that the Government can make the relevant amendments properly in the light of the latest situation of Hong Kong people.

My last point concerns railway development. As mentioned by Mr LUK Chung-hung just now, no projects whatsoever have been completed since the release of the Railway Development Strategy 2014. Secretary, if the Government has scored zero in railway development over the past decade, the perception will indeed be not good. The several railway lines proposed under LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1683 the Railway Development Strategy 2014 are very important and will hopefully be commenced by the Government as soon as possible, so as to create more employment opportunities for Hong Kong. President, I so submit.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I have to thank Mr LUK Chung-hung for proposing the motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion" and Mr CHAN Han-pan for proposing the amendment.

Traffic congestion has always been a common problem faced by various major cities around the world, and Hong Kong is no exception. Hong Kong is a densely populated city with limited road space, so it is difficult for us to tackle traffic congestion by building roads continuously. The Government has all along adopted a multi-pronged transport policy to maintain a smooth flow of passengers and goods traffic through enhancing transport network planning, improving transport infrastructure, expanding and enhancing public transport systems, as well as optimizing various traffic management measures.

In fact, according to the latest Sustainable Cities Mobility Index of Arcadis, Hong Kong ranks number one in the world. The study points out that Hong Kong has a well-developed mass transit railway network, and various kinds of highly efficient and inexpensive modes of transport such as buses, minibuses, trams, taxis and ferries, providing efficient and convenient public transport services to 90% of daily commuters and making Hong Kong one of the least car-dependent cities in the world. Moreover, according to a study conducted by the Land Transport Authority of Singapore in November 2014, the public transport usage rate in Hong Kong was the highest among 27 major cities covered by the study. For other major cities, the public transport usage rate was around 70% in Seoul, 60% in Singapore, 50% in Tokyo and merely 30% in London and New York. It is evident from the above mentioned study that the transport network of Hong Kong is among the most efficient and convenient in the world.

Given the very limited road space in Hong Kong and in order to reduce the number of vehicles using the road, the essence of the Government's transport policy is to adopt public transport as the core, with railway as the backbone. In this connection, the Government published the Railway Development Strategy 2000 and the Railway Development Strategy 2014 ("RDS-2014") in 2000 and 2014 respectively, providing comprehensive planning for new railway projects to 1684 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 respond to transport demand and meet the need of new development areas. Upon completion of all RDS-2014 projects, the total length of the railway network will exceed 300 km and is expected to cover about 70% of the population and about 85% of the employment opportunities in Hong Kong. The expansion of the railway network will also support new development areas and other new development projects to facilitate revitalization, development and economic activities in the districts, and help shorten commuters' journey time, thus making travel easier and more efficient for members of the public across the territory.

Apart from developing railway as the backbone of mass transit to facilitate passenger flow, the Government has also conducted regular internal reviews on the planning of strategic road projects in Hong Kong and taken forward in a timely manner major road projects, including Central-Wan Chai Bypass, Tuen Mun-Chek Lap Kok Link, Central Kowloon Route, Tseung Kwan O-Lam Tin Tunnel and Trunk Road T2, etc. Next, we will take forward the Strategic Studies on Railways and Major Roads beyond 2030 on the basis of the conceptual spatial requirements to be firmed up under the Hong Kong 2030+: Towards a Planning Vision and Strategy Transcending 2030, which is being conducted by the Development Bureau and the Planning Department, so that the planning of major transport infrastructure can meet the overall long-term land development of Hong Kong.

A present, Hong Kong has a very well-developed road network with a total road length of over 2 100 km. This provides a solid foundation for a more comprehensive public transport support and facilitates public access to various places on the Hong Kong Island, in Kowloon and the New Territories by different modes of public transport.

The Public Transport Strategy Study completed by the Government in June 2017 reaffirmed the key factors underpinning the success of the public transport system and recommended over 60 measures to enhance the arrangement of public transport system. These measures help to ensure that the public can enjoy highly efficient, convenient and diversified public transport services.

To attract more people to use public transport and to alleviate the burden of transport expenses on those who spend more on public transport, the Government launched the non-means tested Public Transport Fare Subsidy Scheme ("the Scheme") on 1 January last year. Members of the public who spend more than LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1685

$400 a month on public transport are eligible for the subsidy. To further alleviate the burden of transport expenses on the public, the Government has enhanced the Scheme since 1 January this year by increasing the subsidy rate from one-fourth to one-third of the monthly public transport expenses exceeding $400, as well as raising the subsidy cap from $300 to $400 per month. Moreover, to enable more people to benefit from the Scheme during the epidemic, the Government has introduced a temporary special measure under the second round of the Anti-Epidemic Fund to temporarily relax the threshold of public transport expenses under the Scheme from $400 to $200 in the second half of this year. Since its implementation, the Scheme has been operating smoothly and is well-received by the public at large. They generally consider that the scheme can help relieve the pressure on transport fares. As at October 2020, the total subsidy amount involved in the Scheme was over $3.5 billion, benefiting an average of around 2 million people per month.

Moreover, to relieve the pressure of fare increase of franchised buses, the Government has amended the legislation to exempt franchised bus operators from paying the tolls and fees of seven government tolled tunnels and the Tsing Ma and Tsing Sha Control Areas from 17 February last year. The franchised bus operators have set up their own dedicated fund accounts to deposit the savings in tolls and fees to reduce the magnitude of future fare increase to be shouldered by passengers. In fact, the mitigating effect of the dedicated fund has already lowered the rate of fare increase to be borne by the passengers in the fare adjustment of Citybus, i.e. the Hong Kong Island and cross-harbour bus network, and that of New World First Bus, which passengers have to shoulder early last year.

As for the Mass Transit Railway ("MTR"), the Government will continue to act as a gatekeeper for the public interest by requiring the Mass Transit Railway Corporation Limited ("MTRCL") to adjust its fare according to the mechanism, while appropriately responding to public aspirations and offering more fare concessions for passengers. For instance, in view of the COVID-19 epidemic, MTRCL will offer fare concessions to passengers using Octopus like the "20% Rebate for Every Octopus Trip" for six months with effect from 1 July 2020.

As for Mr CHAN Han-pan's proposal on proactively implementing the measure to accord priority in the use of roads to public transport, the Transport Department ("TD") has set up bus-only lanes and designating bus gates on 1686 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 suitable roads to provide greater convenience to bus passengers. Moreover, last year, TD introduced the bus-friendly traffic measure "Give way to bus" to encourage motorists to let buses exit more easily from bus bays to adjacent traffic lanes. As for other modes of public transport, the Government has designated taxi pick-up/drop-off points and, where traffic situations allow, relaxed some no-stopping restrictions for taxis and green minibus to pickup/drop-off passengers in order to facilitate their operation and enhancement of service quality.

With the implementation of the above measures, we hope to encourage the public to use public transport more often to alleviate traffic congestion during peak hours.

As the road space in Hong Kong is limited after all, apart from expanding and enhancing the public transport system, the Government will continue to introduce a progressively a series of short, medium to long-term recommendations put forth by the Transport Advisory Committee ("TAC") in the Report on the Study of Road Traffic Congestion in Hong Kong to make more effective use of road space and alleviate traffic congestion.

Regarding parking spaces, we understand that the concern of the public, particularly motorists, about the supply of parking spaces and hope that the Government can increase their supply. The Government's current policy on the provision of parking spaces is to accord priority to considering and meeting the parking demand of commercial vehicles, and to provide an appropriate number of private car parking spaces if the overall development permits, but at the same time not to cause frequent users of public transport to opt for private cars in lieu of public transport so as to avoid aggravating the road traffic.

The Government is pursuing a host of measures to increase car parking spaces as appropriate, which include designating suitable on-street locations as night-time parking spaces and following the principle of "single site, multiple uses" to provide public car parking spaces in suitable "Government, Institution or Community" facilities, public open space projects and public housing developments, and so on. TD is proactively taking forward six automated parking system pilot projects with a view to acquiring and consolidating experience in building, operating and managing different types of automated parking systems and the associated financial arrangements. With review conducted at an appropriate time, it will pave the way for wider application of automated parking systems in government and privately operated public car parks in future. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1687

Mr LUK Chung-hung, in his original motion, proposes the provision of park-and-ride concessions at major public transport interchanges, a proposal which Mr CHAN Han-pan has particularly mentioned and is one of the many recommendations made by TAC in the Report. As I mentioned in the beginning, the essence of the Government's policy is to develop a transportation system with public transport as the core and railways as the backbone. On this premise, the Government supports the provision of park-and-ride facilities at suitable railway stations or nearby locations to encourage motorists to take the trains after parking their vehicles, thereby reducing the road traffic in congested areas. Currently, there are 24 car parks providing park-and-ride concessions in Hong Kong, 9 of them are managed by the Housing Department and MTRCL, 5 are managed by private companies and 10 are managed by the Link Asset Management Limited, providing a total of around 10 000 parking spaces. Also, the Government will continue to request MTRCL to promote its existing park-and-ride facilities, and look into the feasibility of providing park-and-ride concessions for more car parks near MTR stations which have not provided such concessions.

Though the Government will increase the supply of parking spaces when the situation allows, I must point out that it is neither reasonable nor sustainable to increase parking spaces continuously to catch up with the growth of vehicles. Appropriate traffic management measures must be implemented to control the number of vehicles running on the road and the collection of tunnel tolls is one of the effective measures in traffic management. At the same time, where traffic conditions permit, the Government of the current term will seek to reduce the cost of using government tolled tunnels and Control Areas incurred by the public, public transport operators and transport trades.

The successive commissioning of the Tuen Mun-Chek Lap Kok Tunnel ("TM- CLKT") and the Tseung Kwan O-Lam Tin Tunnel ("TKO-LTT") will enable the diversion of traffic between Lantau Island and Tseung Kwan O, thus providing an opportunity to waive the relevant tunnel tolls. In the Policy Address 2019, the Chief Executive announced that the Government would waive the tolls of the new TM-CLKT and the Lantau Link upon the commissioning of TM-CLKT and the tolls of the new TKO-LTT and the Tseung Kwan O Tunnel upon commissioning of TKO- LTT. In view of the commissioning of TM-CLKT on 27 December this year, we will submit the relevant commencement notice to the Legislative Council next week, so that toll waiver of the Lantau Link will commence at midnight of 27 December this year.

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As for the toll levels of other government tunnels and Tsing Sha Control Area, the Government proposed in the Policy Address 2018 to, on the basis of the concept of "Congestion Charging", conduct a comprehensive study on the toll levels of all government tolled tunnels and reset all the tunnel tolls. "Congestion Charging" means to increase or reduce vehicle tolls to regulate traffic flow according to the needs of traffic management, so as to rationalize the distribution of tunnel traffic, alleviate traffic congestion and facilitate the commute of the public. TD commenced the study on "Congestion Charging" last July and will consult relevant stakeholders on the proposed toll plans and toll adjustment mechanism at an appropriate time having regard to various factors.

(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MS STARRY LEE, took the Chair)

To reduce the public's reliance on motorized transport, the Government is committed to promoting "Walk in HK" by creating a pedestrian-friendly environment to encourage the public to "walk more, ride less". To this end, TD completed the Stage 2 Public Engagement exercise of the Consultancy Study on Enhancing Walkability in Hong Kong in September last year. It is expected that the first batch of short-term improvement projects proposed under the Consultancy Study on Enhancing Walkability in Hong Kong for the pilot areas in Central and Shum Shui Po will be completed by the end of this year. TD will also formulate the overall strategy on enhancing walkability in Hong Kong. Moreover, the Government is proactively taking forward proposed items on hillside escalator links and elevator systems at present with a view to enhancing the accessibility of hillside areas to facility the public to commute.

Apart from walking, the Government also endeavours to promote a "bicycle-friendly" environment, including improving the existing cycle tracks and bicycle parking spaces, to encourage residents in new towns and new development areas to commute by bicycles, particularly as the "first mile" and "last mile" trips to connect with public transport. In view of the rapid technological advancement of electric mobility devices, TD is looking into issues concerning the latest development and the usage of electric mobility devices in Hong Kong, as well as the suitability of their use in Hong Kong for short-distance commuting, etc. In June this year, we consulted the Panel on Transport of the Legislative Council on the proposed regulatory framework for electric mobility devices, and we will conduct site trials in Science Park and Tseung Kwan O by LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1689 phases starting from December 2020. Subject to the evaluation findings from the site trials and consultation results with stakeholders, the Government intends to introduce legislative amendments with a view to providing a proper regulatory framework for electric mobility devices on the one hand, and embracing new technologies for personal mobility on the other hand.

Moreover, the Government will continue to make good use of big data and innovative technologies to provide real-time data to facilitate the public in travelling and trip planning. To promote Smart Mobility, TD introduced the all-in-one mobile application HKeMobility in July 2018, allowing members of the public to search for routes, journey times, transport fares and other information relating to different means of travel more quickly and conveniently so as to reduce the required travelling time. As at the end of October this year, HKeMobility has been downloaded over 2.24 million times in total.

Currently, HKeMobility provides, directly or through hyperlinks, information on real arrival time and service status of franchised buses, trams and Airport Express, Tung Chung Line, Tseung Kwan O Line and West Rail Line of MTR. As for minibuses, TD plans to install GPS devices on some 3 300 green minibuses in Hong Kong in phases and conduct on-site testing starting from the end of this year. It is expected that real-time arrival information of green minibuses installed with GPS devices will be disseminated via HKeMobility starting from December this year. The relevant data will be made available in a machine readable format via the Public Sector Information Portal ("PSI") of the Government for free use by the public.

At the same time, the Government has been encouraging public transport operators to make open their transport data. The real time arrival information of the above MTR lines and the service status information of all heavy rail, as well as the real time arrival information of Citybus, New World First Bus and New Lantao Bus, has been made available in a machine readable format via the PSI Portal of the Government since last August.

We also understand that the community expects the Government to release more information on vacant parking spaces for the convenience of motorists and to reduce the traffic flow generated by vehicles circulating on roads in nearby areas in search of parking spaces. TD has been encouraging other government departments and operators of non-government car park operators to provide the public with real-time information and data on vacant parking spaces of their car 1690 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 parks via TD's HKeMobility and the Government's PSI Portal . As at the end of October this year, the number of government and non-government car parks disseminating information and data on vacant parking spaces via HKeMobility has increased from 216 in mid-2018 to 400 at the end of October this year. Moreover, the new generation of on-street parking meters to be installed in phases starting from the end of this year will be equipped with vehicle sensors to provide real-time information on on-street vacant parking spaces.

Mr LUK Chung-hung's original motion proposes that the Government should progressively relocating important business development areas to other districts when undertaking urban design and planning. The Government is all along committed to providing commercial land and floor space to maintain Hong Kong's position as an international financial and commercial centre. With the provision of both housing and economic sites in new development areas, the distribution of housing and jobs and the overall spatial development pattern of Hong Kong will be more balanced, which will help spread out the traffic flow and alleviate the traffic load on roads.

The Government is also pressing ahead with the implementation of new development areas like Tung Chung New Town Extension, Kwu Tung North/Fanling North and Hung Shui Kiu/Ha Tsuen. In addition to meeting housing demand, these new development areas will also provide land for economic use, promote economic development and provide a large number of diversified job opportunities, improving the job-housing balance and bringing the distance between employment and homes closer. In particular, the Hung Shui Kiu/Ha Tsuen New Development Area, which is strategically located in the North West New Territories and well connected to Tin Shui Wai, Tuen Mun and Yuen Long, will serve as a regional economic hub of the North West New Territories. Upon the full development of various facilities, including office, hotel, retail, innovation and technology, modern logistics, modern industry and "Government, Institution and Community" facilities, some 150 000 job opportunities will be created. As for the Tung Chung New Town Extension and the Kwu Tung North/Fanling North New Development Area, the land reserved for economic and related uses will create over 80 000 job opportunities in total.

Deputy President, as a cosmopolitan city, Hong Kong's road network is vital to the transportation of passengers and goods. We will certainly continue to spare no efforts and adopt multi-pronged measures to cope with the challenges LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1691 arising from this issue. Deputy President, I so submit. I will listen carefully to Members' views in this Council and give my responses afterwards. Thank you, Deputy President.

MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, traffic congestion is a problem faced by every big city. It can be described as a common failing of affluent metropolises. So far I have not seen any international city which can completely resolve this problem. Take Singapore as an example. Since the adoption of the electronic road pricing system, the problem has eased off within the area where the system is implemented. But outside the area, traffic has become even more congested than before. In fact, traffic congestion has merely shifted to somewhere else.

As mentioned in our past discussions on traffic problems, no measure is painless and every decision is trade-off. It is very easy for us to demand the Government to do this and that, but who will take the responsibility for the side-effects? If a measure will benefit a lot of people and do harm to few, I will surely support it, but there is no such thing. Otherwise we would have implemented it long ago, right? Very often, the number of people on the two sides is very close. Say, the ratio is 2:1. Then what should we do? Besides, we need to calculate the cost-effectiveness. If a huge cost can exchange for only a little gain, is it worthwhile? For instance, in the construction of the Central Kowloon Route, noise barriers were installed on the elevated highway in Yau Ma Tei to reduce the noise level by one decibel for three households, costing $600 million of the taxpayers' money. Up to this moment, I still feel exasperated. I wonder for what the public coffers were spent in such a way. During my visit to Singapore to observe traffic management, its minster pointed out that choice and efficiency are always in conflict with each other. I believe the Secretary shares the same feeling about this. With numerous choices in Hong Kong, the efficiency will certainly be low. If we want to achieve high efficiency, we should learn from Singapore. There is no minibus in the country. Everyone either travels on foot or takes the bus or the train. Such is the situation there. Hence, although the motion today is well-intentioned, I think there will be problems in striking a balance among various aspects and in terms of cost-effectiveness. For this reason, I have reservations about several points therein.

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Firstly, relocation of business development areas is a significant town planning issue. Traffic is certainly an important factor, but there are many other more important factors which should be taken into consideration. Do Members really think that the free market can be manoeuvred by us as we wish? If we propose relocating Central to a certain place, will other people or enterprises follow? It will affect many people and things in the vicinity, such as lawyers, doctors and other professions, involving one after another. We have tried to relocate business areas to other places for so many years. Frankly, it has been done in East Kowloon, but there are still so many people taking cross-harbour journeys. Eventually, there are more and more vehicles on the road, necessitating traffic distribution among the three harbour crossings. In theory, if the problem in East Kowloon has been resolved, there would not be so many vehicles using the harbour crossings, giving rise to the same problem. Hence, the free market will not dance to our baton at all.

Secondly, it is never wrong to conduct a study. The Government is fond of conducting studies, such as the study on the rent of subdivided units. Regarding the provision of the $2 fare concession to people aged 60 to 64, the Secretary has studied for quite a while. When will the study end? The Chief Executive said it would be implemented, but now the situation remains unknown. Frankly, if the Government wishes to study the impact of solar eclipse on traffic congestion, I will have no objection because it is just a study. Nevertheless, I do not think highly of this kind of studies.

Thirdly, speaking of railway, of course there are a lot of things I would like to say. In fact, in the motion on the governance of the MTR Corporation Limited ("MTRCL") proposed by me two years ago, I already highlighted the salient points. Among them, certain views still carry much significance in relation to this motion today. I thus wish to raise these views to the Secretary again. Planning new development areas in tandem with their ancillary railway facilities is a crucial point. In planning some of the new development areas in the past, since the Special Administrative Region Government did not concurrently consider ancillary transport facilities, serious traffic problems arose in such areas, and then railways were constructed in a rush. But the construction of railways was subjected to time constraints, followed by cost overruns and a decline in works quality. The issue of planning new development areas in tandem with ancillary railway facilities has been discussed for years. Can it actually be achieved? Now it is possible, since the projects for Lantau Tomorrow and the fifth cross-harbour railway will be carried out simultaneously. This is the very first time I have seen such a possibility. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1693

Another point is urging MTRCL to regularly review its investment strategy of updating the signalling system. Secretary, the many serious disruptions of MTR train services in the past were caused by the ageing signalling system. MTRCL should regularly upgrade the signalling system to the latest version. I often joke that after buying iPhone 1, many people will soon switch to iPhone 2, 3, 4 and then 10 and 11 which are the most up-to-date versions. We will not wait to replace our mobile phones until they are out of order. Each new version of the signalling system has its merits. Can we have an early replacement, rather than having to wait for 20 or 30 years for a replacement? Cost does not stand for the greatest effectiveness. I think I heard someone say during an internal discussion: "If we cannot raise the fare after updating the signalling system, what good will it do? Occasional congestion and service disruptions happen everywhere in the world. Our frequency of having such incidents is already minimal. Frequent updates of the signalling system costs money, but the fare cannot be raised. I do not think there will be more passengers. This is not in line with the principle of a listed company." Is that the case? Secretary, I also know what the board of directors of a listed company will say at its meeting.

Moreover, regarding the routes, I have repeatedly made two proposals. The first one is the construction of a fifth cross-harbour railway from Tuen Mun, passing Gold Coast and Siu Lam, then crossing the harbour and going to the urban areas via Lantau. The other one is the Tuen Mun-Kowloon Railway from Tuen Mun Ferry Pier to Sham Tseng, then passing Tsuen Wan and directly going to Mei Foo and Nam Cheong such that passengers may interchange with the Tsuen Wan Line or other lines at these two stations. If only the Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link is constructed, given so many new property developments at the Tsuen Wan West Station, coupled with the residents of Tuen Mun, Tin Shui Wai and Yuen Long concurrently taking the Tsuen Wan Line, the train compartments will be jam-packed and the residents of the New Territories will have no way to get on board.

As regards the problem of parking, the proposal of increasing the number of parking spaces sounds good. However, if the Government does not limit the number of new vehicles, it will in effect give an additional incentive for people to buy new vehicles. After all, is the Government bold enough to restrict the number of new vehicles? After it has been discussed for such a long time, it is yet to be done. This is a problem of ancillary facilities.

1694 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Lastly, I fully support reduction or waiver of public transport fares, but interchange stations must be available. There is a piece of land near the Tuen Mun Road Bus-Bus Interchange. I have long proposed the construction of a 10-odd-storey car park, with a capacity of more than 1 000. If the Government does not do so and instead, reduces or waives the transport fares, is it not tantamount to encourage people to continue to drive? Provision of park-and-ride concessions for public transport interchange is a proposal which I greatly support. That is the recommendation in point (7) of the motion, which is the most important. (The buzzer sounded)

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Michael TIEN, your speaking time is up. Please stop speaking.

MR CHAN KIN-POR (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I am very glad that today the Legislative Council can debate on the traffic problems in Hong Kong. In the past year or two, it seemed that there were no other problems in society apart from political issues. In fact, our society faces many livelihood problems that need to be solved. For example, the problem of traffic congestion we are debating here today has long been troubling society for a very long time. The Council should waste no more time and should get back on track so as to solve various livelihood problems for the people.

Traffic congestion has been plaguing Hong Kong for years. Despite the Government's continuous efforts to construct railways and build new roads, the problem of congestion remains to be solved. During rush hours when students and workers are going to or returning from school or work, congestion on major trunk roads is a common occurrence. Honourable colleagues have made quite many insightful comments today, and I do not want to repeat here. I just want to focus my discussion on the problem with private cars.

At present, there are approximately 800 000 licensed vehicles in Hong Kong, among which 570 000 are private cars. It means that 70% of all vehicles are private cars, representing a very high percentage. Though not every owner of private cars drives every day, given the large number of private cars, there will be severe traffic congestion as along as some drivers drive every day. Therefore, to reduce the number of private cars running on roads, many countries LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1695 have come up with many different methods, including odd-even licence plate restriction and ride-sharing. I believe, as Hong Kong is to develop itself into a smart city, it should conduct studies on such newly emerged methods.

I believe it is not feasible to implement odd-even licence plate restriction in Hong Kong, but ride-sharing is worth studying. The concept of ride-sharing has long existed in foreign countries and has gradually gained popularity on the Mainland. The concept is simple. Assuming three car owners each drive their cars to work every day, if the Government provides some incentives to encourage these three car owners to ride together in the same car to work, there will be one car on the road instead of three, thereby reducing the chance of congestion. I find it worthwhile to study this method. We often see many private cars on the road, but most of them only carry one or two passengers. If ride-sharing can be promoted in Hong Kong, the problem of congestion can possibly be solved.

In fact, the results of a study indicated that large-scale ride-sharing can effectively reduce idle seats in private cars and facilitate the effective use of resources, thus reducing the need for vehicle purchases, while suppressing the growth of road vehicles and promote energy conservation and emission reduction in terms of transport. If ride-sharing becomes the mainstream mode of private transport, the number of private cars on the road will possibly be reduced by more than 40% and the problem of traffic congestion in Hong Kong is then expected to be reduced by 90%. Of course, these are all predictions. Whether ride-sharing is suitable for Hong Kong still needs to be studied in detail. However, it is certain that various places in the world have lots of experience of encouraging people to share rides, from which Honourable colleagues can draw reference.

Many cities in the Mainland and the United States ("US") have implemented ride-sharing, and their experience is worthy of our reference. Designated lanes for ride-sharing have been introduced since 2014 in Wuxi, Jiangsu of the Mainland, followed by Jinan, Shenzhen and Chengdu. The designated lanes are for the use of public buses, private cars or lorries carrying two or more passengers. They resemble the bus lanes in Hong Kong. To avoid abuse, the Mainland cities have adopted advanced surveillance technologies, such as infrared thermography for detection of the number of passengers and licence plate recognition technology.

The State of Washington, US has established high-occupancy vehicle lanes ("HOV") connecting major residential areas and employment areas for the use of ride-sharing vehicles carrying two or more passengers. Studies have indicated 1696 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 that HOV lanes can indeed encourage ride-sharing among commuters. Seattle has even introduced roadside parking spaces designated for ride-sharing vehicles for the use of office workers in the vicinity at affordable rates, with priority given to vehicles carrying more passengers.

To sum up, cities promoting ride-sharing will usually provide designated lanes and some even set up designated parking spaces so as to encourage people to share rides. Of course, the governments concerned also need to make strong promotion and publicity efforts. These cities have all achieved good result. I consider that, to address traffic congestion and air pollution, Hong Kong should conduct an in-depth study on this approach. I have made this proposal today purely for the sake of arousing more views and discussions. I hope Honourable colleagues can give this new approach some thought and solve the problems by thinking out of the box.

Thank you, Deputy President.

MR KENNETH LAU (in Cantonese): Deputy President, traffic and transport are the lifeline of a city. A sound transport system can carry people and goods to various places quickly and conveniently, facilitating the development of society. Yet, due to traffic congestion, the average vehicle speed on roads in Hong Kong has been continuously dropping. The vehicle speed on some streets in Central is even below 5 km/h, which is about the normal walking speed of an adult. It shows that traffic congestion is a very serious problem that cannot be ignored. I thank Mr LUK Chung-hung for proposing the motion to explore the traffic issues in Hong Kong.

At present, the transport policy of Hong Kong is mainly formulated on the basis of the findings of the Third Comprehensive Transport Study commenced in 1997. Undeniably, the study made great contributions to the transport development of Hong Kong in the past. However, after 23 years, the Government has not conducted another comprehensive review of the territory-wide transport policy. The Government carried out the Public Transport Strategy Study in 2017 to briefly review the respective roles and positioning of public transport services, but it was basically a continuation of the findings of the Third Comprehensive Transport Study. However, during this period, there have been drastic changes in society. In particular, with the development of the Greater Bay Area Development introduced by the Country in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1697 recent years, the exchanges and interaction between Hong Kong and the Mainland have become increasingly close. Cross-boundary infrastructure projects, such as Shenzhen Bay, Liantang/Heung Yuen Wai Boundary Control Point, the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge ("HZMB") and the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, have been completed for commissioning one after another. And with the commissioning of the Tuen Mun-Chek Lap Kok Link next month, it will only take 10 minutes for Tuen Mun residents to get to the airport, where they can then reach the Mainland via HZMB.

Nowadays, the demand of Hong Kong people for cross-boundary transport is no longer the same as it was 23 years ago. I support the proposal in the original motion to launch the Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study to re-examine the transport planning of Hong Kong, taking into account the Greater Bay Area Development and the transport situations of the territory, so as to facilitate Hong Kong's integration into the overall development of the Country.

On a different note, I would also like to discuss the transport problems in the New Territories. The population structure and distribution in Hong Kong today are very different from those of 20 years ago. In particular, population in the New Territories has seen rapid growth, from 2.9 million in the mid-1990 to 3.8 million at present. It is estimated the population will further rise to 4.38 million in 2028, accounting for over half, i.e. 55%, of the population of Hong Kong. Moreover, the majority of residents in the New Territories are not able to work in the same district and have to work in other districts, which has a huge impact on public transport and roads linking the New Territories and urban areas. The MTR East Rail Line and West Rail Line are already operating at close to capacity during peak hours, with the former at 90% and the latter at a staggering 101%. Once the development projects in Yuen Long South, Hung Shui Kiu, Kam Tin South and Fanling North are completed one after another, transport demand within the districts will only increase but not decrease.

Evidently, the East Rail and West Rail Lines can no longer absorb the future passenger throughput, thus there is a pressing need to enhance transport infrastructure and facilities connecting the New Territories and urban areas. Railways have the merits of high capacity, low carbon emission and do not occupy road space. The use of railways to divert passengers is a desirable option. For example, in New Territories West, the Government had looked into the construction of a coastal railway between Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan, but it was eventually excluded from the Railway Development Strategy 2014 due to 1698 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 high construction costs, insufficient population in the catchment areas and the lack of cost-effectiveness. But, in fact, traffic on Castle Peak Road the Tuen Mun Road is now already bursting at the seams. During rush hours, congestion lasting an hour or two is nothing but a common occurrence. Therefore, there have been calls in society for the construction of a Tuen Mun-Tsuen Wan railway to improve the external transport connection in the Southwest New Territories.

Following the population intake of numerous residential developments in So Kwun Wat one after another, as well as the opening of several primary schools, international schools and tertiary institutions―Deputy President, I first declare that I am a governor of the governing board of Harrow International School Hong Kong at So Kwun Wat―the population in the coastal area in New Territories Southwest has seen significant growth. I believe that there is a certain demand for railway transport. I find it necessary for the Government to reconsider the construction of a Tuen Mun-Tsuen Wan railway so that the transport demand of Tuen Mun residents in the future can be diverted, while residents in Hung Shui Kiu and Yuen Long can make use of the West Rail to travel, thereby reducing the existing burden on the West Rail.

On road transport, the original motion proposes "studying the introduction of standard tolls for the current three land tunnels and three road harbour crossings, so as to divert vehicular flows". I consider this proposal viable. Given the current epidemic and economic environment, I think the Government can do more, such as waiving the tolls of six tunnels in the New Territories and subsidizing the operating costs of tunnel operators so as to alleviate the pressure of toll increases and reduce people's daily living expenses.

Deputy President, I so submit. I support Mr LUK Chung-hung's original motion and Mr CHAN Han-pan's amendment.

MRS REGINA IP (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I also support Mr LUK Chung-hung's original motion. Due to the time constraint, I only wish to draw the Secretary's attention to one very important issue.

At first, many people did not understand why the same Policy Bureau is made responsible for matters relating to transport and housing. Now I can see more and more clearly the importance of it because if, in the course of housing development, the transport problems are not addressed in tandem, it would be LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1699 impossible to improve the people's living and worse still, the Government will meet great resistance in taking forward housing projects. Moreover, given the Government's failure to find land, when the Government continuously develops public housing units or sells land for private housing development at places where traffic is already very congested, the problem of traffic congestion in New Territories East and West will only become increasingly serious.

Let me cite an example which I think the Secretary may know as it happened only recently. On 2 November, the Under Secretary for Transport and Housing attended a meeting of the Panel on Housing to seek our support for two projects. One is about the site formation and infrastructure works for public housing developments at Tuen Mun Central, for which some $900 million was requested; the other is about the site formation and infrastructure works for public housing developments at Kam Tin South, Yuen Long, and some $900 million was also requested for it. The funding sought for the two projects totalled $1.9 billion.

On the surface, when it comes to funding applications for public housing development, we should very much support them. But when Members, especially many of those who are familiar with the situation of New Territories West, examined the proposals, they found that both projects are situated at the very crowded Tuen Mun Central and Yuen Long South and will increase the population of each place by 20 000 without providing new roads and railways. This will go beyond the capacity of the two places and Members, therefore, rejected the funding applications. This is the situation of New Territories West.

In New Territories West there is another situation which the Secretary also knows. There is a district where the population is ever increasing but the transport problems have never been tackled. I am talking about So Kwun Wat, and Chairman LAU also mentioned it earlier on. We have seen more and more private housing developments in So Kwun Wat and as Chairman LAU has said, there is a Harrow School and so, many middle-class people live there. Apart from the bus service provided by the housing estates, the residents can only rely on green minibus No. 43 to travel to and from the Tuen Mun Town Centre. These aside, there are only bus routes No. 52X, 261B, K53 and 962E running to and from the urban area. As these are special routes with a low frequency, providing services only during the peak hours, the residents of private housing estates have consistently lodged complaints with us, and of course, they have also complained about a lack of parking spaces for private cars. Given insufficient 1700 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 public transport service, the residents have to drive their own vehicles, and there are more choices only at the part of Castle Peak Road opposite the Gold Coast. NAPA has 460 parking spaces, and there is Avignon. Besides, many new housing developments by Evergrande are being put up for sale now, and the Secretary knows it. Although these new private housing developments have been completed, transport has posed a major problem.

On the other hand, New Territories East has a big problem too. I believe the Secretary also heard recently that the Under Secretary had suffered a defeat again. Secretary, I understand that you had been to the North District because some local residents in Tai Po told me that they had exchanged views with you. The Administration is planning to develop 711 transitional housing units at the site of the former Sing Ping School at Ping Che, Ta Kwu Ling. The development of transitional housing sounds like a good thing but the transport support facilities are utterly inadequate there. According to the villagers of Ping Che Village, 711 housing units will bring an additional population of 1 000 to 2 000 and this will have a huge impact on the community. In terms of public transport, villagers mainly rely on minibus No. 52K and bus No. 79K, and long queues can be seen during peak commuting hours. There is always a long queue at the terminus of minibus No. 52K at Fanling MTR station, and passengers have to wait for at least 30 minutes before they can get on a minibus during the peak hours. The Administration selected Sing Ping School without any prior consultation. On the day of the meeting, many people already expressed their opposition to the Under Secretary, and I understand that the local residents also conveyed their views to the Secretary at a meeting of the Panel on Housing. This shows that in the relocation of new population to a certain place, the Government certainly has to identify land for the purpose given a large number of people waiting to be allocated a housing unit, but if the Government cannot address the transport problem in the district concerned, it would be impossible to achieve the purpose. The Government is set to face opposition from a lot of people in the process, and the residents will be in great distress after moving in.

The Science Park at Pak Shek Kok is another example that I have mentioned to the Government. People driving past the Tolo Highway will know that there are many gorgeous new housing developments in the area around the Science Park. The population in the district is increasing rapidly but the district is not easily accessible as it is literally cut off by the Tolo Highway. The residents are most in need of a Pak Shek station but as Chairman LAU has said, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1701 even though the residents hope that a Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wai Link can be constructed, the MTR Corporation Limited ("MTRCL"), after making calculations, considered it unprofitable and is, therefore, unwilling to develop it. While the Hong Kong Government is the majority shareholder of MTRCL and many government officials and former senior officials sit on the Board of MTRCL, they have failed to persuade MTRCL to undertake more projects for the public good. This Pak Shek station is very much needed because new housing developments have been continuously put up for sale there, and transport will become a huge problem in future.

The commissioning of the Tuen Ma Line is not of much help to the residents of Tuen Mun South, for it basically cannot ease the crowdedness on Kam Sheung Road, Tin Shui Wai and the West Rail. If the Secretary will tell residents in New Territories West that when the artificial islands are built after completion of the reclamation works as mentioned by Mr Michael TIEN, there will be a new railway crossing the harbour to connect Central via the artificial islands, but two to three decades down the line, the residents would have been crammed to death. In the event of a typhoon similar to Mangkhut wreaking havoc on us, and when the railway service breaks down due to obstructions and fallen trees, there will be widespread discontent from the residents again.

I understand that as transport and housing are put under the charge of one Policy Bureau, it is indeed a tall task for the Secretary, not to mention that it is also unfair to him. But in tackling the housing issues, the Secretary must resolve problems relating to transport support facilities. Otherwise, it is going to be very difficult for the Government to seek our support for its funding requests.

Deputy President, I so submit.

MR WILSON OR (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I speak in support of Mr LUK Chung-hung's original motion and Mr CHAN Han-pan's amendment. In fact, traffic congestion is a long-standing problem, and it is now deteriorating. Frankly speaking, we can hardly come up with a good policy within a very short time through this debate to address Hong Kong's traffic congestion. There will be no magic wand that can deliver instant results. But I hope that the Secretary or the SAR Government will grasp the nettle.

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Deputy President, Secretary, I have specifically prepared this image for the Secretary. This is not a composite image but a day and night view of Kowloon East. I believe that the Secretary often goes to Kowloon East. When I talk with any Secretary about the traffic problem in Kowloon East, he will invariably ask, "Mr OR, is it true that Kowloon East suffers traffic congestion every day?" As the Secretary can see, the upper part of the image shows traffic congestion during the day. This is not the situation at rush hours, and the situation at rush hours is even worse. This only reflects a normal queue of slow-moving vehicles. The lower part of the image shows traffic congestion during the night. This is Kwun Tong Road with which people are familiar. For this reason, as indicated by Mr LUK Chung-hung in his speech just now, it is not surprising at all that Kwun Tong is on the list in the relevant surveys.

Today I would like to discuss this issue with the Secretary from several aspects. Which aspects? First, disconnection between infrastructure and reality; second, the policy of using railways as a major mode of transport; third, parking spaces; and fourth, control on vehicle registration. I believe the Secretary also knows that there are the Civil Engineering and Development Department, the Transport Department and the Housing Department under the Transport and Housing Bureau ("THB"). But these departments give me the impression that there is infighting among them, and even the departments in charge of transport and housing cannot present a united front. Why do I say so? Deputy President, regarding our proposals to resolve traffic problems in new development areas, particularly the construction of certain major trunk roads, colleagues of the Transport Department all wave their hands and shake their heads in refusal. In fact, our existing roads are unable to cope with the needs of a growing population.

Let me cite an example. The Secretary must be very familiar with Kowloon East. The population of Kowloon East had grown to over 1 million in 2016 from some 800 000 before that year. In that region, the Government has launched Energizing Kowloon East and various housing developments, such as the development at Anderson Road for constructing On Tat Estate and On Tai Estate. The population of Kowloon East is estimated to reach 1.12 million in 2020. The population keeps growing, but in response to our proposal to construct major roads, or roadways we often refer to, the Secretary's colleagues will reply that this may not resolve the problem, and more effective measures can be adopted. In my view, the installation of additional traffic lights and the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1703 extension of existing footways are all piecemeal remedies that are not feasible, but colleagues simply turn a deaf ear to our proposal. I am talking about the Secretary's colleagues rather than the Secretary himself.

In addition, the dates of completion of the Tseung Kwan O-Lam Tin Tunnel ("TKO-LTT") and Trunk Road T2 will be unable to cope with the actual situation. TKO-LTT will be completed in late 2021 and Trunk Road T2 will be completed in 2026. I would like to tell the Secretary that no one knows what will happen by then. But traffic congestion continues day after day. For this reason, I hope that the Secretary can stop infighting among the departments, and enable the departments in charge of transport and housing to present a united front. If the completion of infrastructure projects is delayed, our existing roads will be overburdened.

Second, regarding using railways as a major mode of transport, the Secretary has said just now that he hopes more people will take the train. That said, I often ask the Secretary to honour his promise. Former Secretary Anthony CHEUNG and former Chief Executive LEUNG Chun-ying indicated in the Railway Development Strategy 2014 that an East Kowloon Line project would be constructed. The written reply provided by the Secretary to me today is very disappointing. Technical feasibility should not be a problem, as the Government should have proposed the project when it was certain about its feasibility. What about the feasibility of the project these days? Will the Government fail to honour its promise to Kwun Tong or East Kowloon? If the East Kowloon Line can be constructed, it can effectively alleviate the transport problems of residents on the hilltop, including residents of Sau Mau Ping, Sze Shun, On Tat Estate and Lam Tin. I hope that the Secretary will render assistance, instead of disappointing residents of Kowloon East in a way he has provided the written reply to me today. He should not fail to honour his promise to me.

Moreover, Secretary, all MTR stations in the district were constructed in the 1970s. The platforms of Kwun Tong MTR station are crammed every day. As Kwun Tong is transforming from an industrial district into a commercial district, its floating population is growing. As the Government advocates the use of railways as a major mode of transport, members of the public certainly must take MTR, but MTR stations are crammed. Secretary, should the Government not take advantage of the current urban renewal to undertake some improvement work? I do not oppose using railways as a major mode of transport, but I hope the Government can enhance its policy.

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In addition, in respect of parking spaces, Secretary, I have long been promoting a "single site, multiple uses" model, with the hope that various government properties can be used more effectively for parking purposes, thus resolving traffic congestion problems on the roads. The Government needs to consider this, but when frontline colleagues consider the proposal, they often shows that they are ignorant or slow on the uptake. When we have put forward our proposal, the Government can provide us with better ideas if it says that we are incompetent and our proposal is not feasible. But the Government has failed to provide any better ideas, and thus traffic congestion continues day and night.

Finally, my last point concerns control on vehicle registration. I very much appreciate Mr CHAN Kin-por's speech just now, in which he raised quite a number of recommendations for consideration by the Government. However, if the registration of vehicles is not properly controlled at source, the number of vehicles will keep increasing day after day, and the problem will only be deteriorating. We will basically be unable to resolve existing traffic congestion problems. Deputy President, I would like to point out that if we want to effectively alleviate traffic congestion, THB must shoulder heavy responsibilities. I hope that they will come up with more ideas and tell members of the public in a high-profile manner that the Government is determined and able to think outside the box and solve the problem.

Deputy President, I reiterate that I support Mr LUK Chung-hung's original motion and Mr CHAN Han-pan's amendment today. I also hope that the Secretary can have regard to Members' speeches just now and give us a ray of hope. We have no crystal ball to see the future, but I hope that the authorities can make long-term planning, so that we can finish each task step-by-step and realize our dreams. Thank you, Deputy President. I so submit.

MR SHIU KA-FAI (in Cantonese): Deputy President, today we are discussing the motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion".

MTR is the backbone of the public transport system in Hong Kong. People will of course not encounter congestion when taking the railway. Why do people opt for road transport rather than railway encounter congestion? The reason is certainly that there are too many cars. Just now many Honourable colleagues have pointed out that the number of vehicles in Hong Kong stands at 700 000 plus and seems to be on the rise, but the development of roads has lagged LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1705 far behind the growth of vehicles. Coupled with the declining number of parking spaces, especially in busy districts, illegal parking has thus resulted, aggravating road congestion.

Hong Kong people all know that, when crossing the harbour via the Cross Harbour Tunnel, they will definitely be caught in congestion, and Tseung Kwan O Tunnel is congested even during non-peak hours. Today, I have heard an Honourable colleague say that East Kowloon has congestion problems too. And Mrs IP has also just said road traffic in West New Territories is very congested. I believe Honourable colleagues must be particularly concerned about the places they frequently visit. I do not often visit all 18 districts in Hong Kong. My main area of activity is Hong Kong Island, so I will talk more about the traffic conditions on Hong Kong Island today.

Causeway Bay on Hong Kong Island often experiences traffic jams. The cause is that even though there are two or three lanes on Paterson Street, illegal parking frequently are so serious that vehicles cannot pull up to the pavement for pick-ups or drop-offs, and so they have to stop on the lanes, making it impossible for the following vehicles to move forward. It naturally leads to seriously congested traffic in the Causeway Bay district. If the Government wants to solve such problems, it has to increase the frequency of issuing fixed penalty tickets, or even tow away vehicles that block the roads. Without adopting a tougher approach, illegal parking will continue and congestion cannot be ameliorated. This happens every day. I often call 999 to make reports. After receiving complaints, the Police would send officers to remove the illegally parked vehicles. But those vehicles would return after a while and were park illegally again. Even I called again to make a complaint, the same situation re-appear in no time. It is one of the causes of traffic congestion in busy districts. I believe the same situation also occurs in other districts such as Tsim Sha Tsui and Mongkok. If the Government wants to solve this problem, I think the Police Traffic Branch has to deploy more manpower to handle it, or even station personnel there for on-site law enforcement. At black spots of illegal parking, they can even tow the illegally parked vehicles away.

Another issue of concern to many people about the Hong Kong Island is the problem with buses. During the morning and evening commuting peak hours, many buses are running on the road. People can all see the congestion on Hennessy Road. Many people have asked the Government whether it will rationalize Island bus routes. I understand that it is extremely difficult because the District Councils ("DC") have to be consulted. In past DC meetings, I noted 1706 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 that officials of the Transport and Housing Bureau had proposed cutting bus routes. However, as regards cutting bus routes, DC members will definitely fight hard with the Government. It is about the scope of the focus. If the focus is on individual districts, DC members have to answer to their voters. But considering the overall interest of Hong Kong, congestion consumes a great deal of people's time, and time is money, meaning people's money is wasted. Therefore, I find it reasonable to amalgamate some bus routes in an appropriate manner. However, the Government needs to pay attention to the fact that in places not covered by railway, such as those on the hill, if relevant bus routes are cut and there is no railway, residents will then have to walk. Accordingly, the Government should leave these places alone so that cutting bus routes will be less controversial.

Taking King's Road as an example, if relevant bus routes are to be amalgamated, I have not heard too strong of an opposition from DC members because there are trams, MTR and minibuses running in the district. Many modes of public transport are available. Therefore, the Government can thoroughly consider and study which routes can be amalgamated, and then make proposals to the respective DCs. I believe that with fewer buses running on the roads, traffic congestion will be alleviated, particularly considering the abundance of empty buses on Hong Kong Island.

The third point is on tunnels, which other Honourable colleagues have mentioned. I know that it is one of the major tasks being undertaken by the Secretary, namely the proposal of traffic rationalization among the three road harbour crossings. But this task did not come to fruition at the end of last year or beginning this year. As a matter of fact, it is not entirely inadvisable. More drivers use the Cross Harbour Tunnel for its cheaper tolls, and congestion does not only occur in the tunnel but also in the adjacent areas such as Causeway Bay, Wan Chai, Tsim Sha Tsui and Jordan. To answer how to divert the traffic flows, two factors have to be taken into account: first, the cheaper tolls of the Cross Harbour Tunnel; second, its central location among the three tunnels and relative convenience. Therefore, in order to make people use the Eastern Harbour Crossing or Western Harbour Crossing which are farther away, incentives in terms of tolls have to be provided for people to switch to other tunnels. The current status of the traffic rationalization among the three road harbour crossings remains uncertain. Perhaps the Government can give a clear analysis of the pros and cons to the public and other Honourable colleagues. For example, motorists prefer a cheaper route will have to endure longer traffic congestion, say, 45 minutes. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1707

As regards the measures to improve traffic congestion, actually the Central-Wan Chai Bypass is a very good example. Back then, when the Queen's Pier was demolished for the implementation of the project, some people blabbered and thwarted the demolition, saying traffic would become inconvenient. Nonetheless, the works of the Central-Wan Chai Bypass commenced in 2009 and were completed in February 2019 for commissioning. We, Members of the Legislative Council, work in the vicinity and know the situation very well. Now, we can reach North Point and the Eastern District in no time. And from North Point, we can also reach Sheung Wan, Central or Sai Wan very quickly. But in the past, traffic congestion on Gloucester Road could often last for half an hour to 45 minutes. Many people have found out that it is no longer the case now. Residents on Hong Kong Island understand the situation, while residents of Kowloon districts may not visit Hong Kong Island very often, so I am not sure how they feel about it.

In addition, I think the Government can seriously consider constructing underground tunnels. Japan and Korea have already developed a large number of underground roads, while Hong Kong has not yet done much in this respect. Secretary, regarding the space for the development of roads and car parks, the authorities should think more seriously and expeditiously about how to promote underground development. If they only consider how to park cars on the surface of the roads, the roads will definitely be very congested.

Lastly, I want to talk about pedestrian escalators. I think escalators can help people minimize the use of public transport and make them do more exercise. However, the Government needs to speed up the construction of escalators. When I was a member of Eastern DC (Braemer Hill), I requested the construction of pedestrian escalators in the district in 2007 and 2008, but the works have only been gazetted this year, and it is already 2020. I wonder if I will still be alive when the works are completed or will I be dead already. It is not like we are building a staircase to heaven, but it has taken the Government 20 years to do so. How can it be? Hong Kong is doomed to failure if it is developed in such a way. Therefore, as regards the various aforementioned proposals for improving traffic congestion, may the Government please streamline the procedures, conduct studies and implement them as soon as possible? Thank you.

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MR VINCENT CHENG (in Cantonese): Mr SHIU Ka-fai is quite anxious about this matter, but I believe he will definitely see improvement in the relevant situation someday in the future. Deputy President, I rise to speak in support of Mr LUK Chung-hung's original motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion" and Mr CHAN Han-pan's amendment. Deputy President, as we remember, a week ago, the Secretary was also present. We had just completed the scrutiny and passed the Road Traffic Legislation (Parking Spaces) (Amendment) Bill 2019. At that time we also discussed the proposals about how to provide more smart parking meters and parking spaces to alleviate traffic congestion. Mr LUK Chung-hung has put it right. The problem of traffic congestion really involves multifarious factors, such as planning, policy implementation, how to make good use of mass transit, design and planning of urban roads and railway development. Many aspects are related. We need to look at the overall picture and also ways to make use of the present technology to facilitate the use of public transport by more people. Yet the Government has got to bear in mind that it should never adopt a piecemeal approach to deal with problems on an ad hoc basis.

Hong Kong is a city with a population of 7.5 million people. Transport involves town planning and the landscape of the whole territory. Moreover, people commute every day. I hope the Government will have a holistic strategy and plan. Now the Government has mentioned that the problem of illegal parking will be handled by issuing penalty tickets. The approach of issuing penalty tickets is not infeasible. Some cases which are way out of line really deserve penalty tickets. However, regarding the issue of some 2 million fixed penalty tickets a year, I do not know how this figure should be described, and earlier on, the Government further said that the number of penalty tickets issued would be increased. Actually, the best way is of course to encourage people to use mass transit carriers more often and at the same time increase the number of parking spaces.

Deputy President, currently, the average year-on-year growth rate of licensed vehicles is about 3%. There are approximately 790 000 cars in the city. As shown by the Government's figures, from 2003 to 2019, the number of cars increased by 40% to 50% from 520 000. Many people are keen on buying cars. Take the Central Core District as an example. The annual average daily traffic increased from 460 000 vehicles to 500 000 vehicles in 2017. That is one of the reasons for such traffic congestion mentioned by Honourable colleagues just now. Among them, 40% were private cars while 30% were taxis. In the end, all the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1709 roads are seriously congested, and the driving speed becomes increasingly slow. A simple example is that now the driving speed of vehicles on some sections of Queen's Road Central is 6 km/hour. My jogging speed is faster than this. Even walking will be faster.

Back to Kowloon West, the district to which I belong. The situation is the same. Previously, as many people worked from home, the situation seemed to have slightly improved, but now the congestion at the Cross-Harbour Tunnel at Hung Hom is again outrageous. It is similar to the situation in the Eastern District or Kwun Tong mentioned by Mr Wilson OR. The congestion at Kwun Tong Road is also outrageous. I remember that last year, in the name of the "Alliance of Concern for Sham Shui Po Traffic", I published a list of 10 blackspots of illegal parking. Now these blackspots have relapsed with recurrence of indiscriminate parking. Vehicles are double or even triple parked. Of course, I hope the Government will step up issuing penalty tickets. Moreover, the Secretary should instruct the Traffic Branch to particularly deal with those cases which are way out of line. Some people had indeed gone too far in parking their cars at road junctions. They had no idea that large vehicles would be unable to pass through afterwards, thus blocking the entire road. Some other people parked their cars at bus stops, and thus the buses had to make a detour. It also caused the road to be jammed and was infuriating.

Deputy President, Hong Kong is different from the Mainland and Singapore. Singapore has put in place many road control measures and restricts the number of new vehicles that can be registered. The premise of any transport policy around the world is certainly encouraging people to use mass transit carriers as far as possible when they travel. Frankly, however, we understand that sometimes people have different needs. It may indeed be more convenient to drive. Hence, the Government should make thorough consideration. We propose that the authorities should expeditiously launch the Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study to comprehensively examine the positioning and roles of various modes of transport, expand road infrastructure facilities and make proper planning. This is the only right way.

Deputy President, in the past, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong has made many proposals and updated quite a number of them, with a view to improving the road conditions. Coming back to public transport which was mentioned at the outset, we cannot but talk about the fares of the MTR Corporation Limited ("MTRCL"). The fare adjustment 1710 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 mechanism of MTRCL really has a significant impact on the public. Now we hope that MTRCL can introduce more approaches, profitability indices, etc. such that MTR fares can be lower, thereby encouraging more people to travel by train.

Another topic is traffic rationalization among the three harbour crossings, for which the Secretary has submitted a proposal earlier. However, at that time we did not totally agree with it because in our view, this approach would add to the pressure on roads. Nevertheless, we are not rigid like an iron plate. In fact, there is still room for discussion on such options as differential tolling by time of the day. I hope there can be further studies and discussions. Yet the best option is of course the construction of an additional harbour crossing, i.e. the fourth one. We think it can be arranged and considered earlier.

Deputy President, the solution to road traffic congestion involve many aspects. Let me talk about the problem relating to parking spaces, since the supply of parking spaces is always tight in Kowloon West. I wish to further discuss with the Secretary how additional parking spaces can actually be provided. Secretary, I have checked the 2019 Policy Address. Actually, a new policy address will come soon next week. However, in the policy address of a year or so ago, the Chief Executive stated that there were 300 sites totalling some 300 hectares which were planned to adopt the "single site, multiple uses" model. Can the Secretary respond before the end of the debate how these 300 sites intended for adopting the "single site, multiple uses" model are really used after a year has passed? The Drainage Services Department Building in Cheung Sha Wan, the construction of which has just commenced, will be some 40 storeys high and provide 30 parking spaces. After much discussion, the Government is still unwilling to increase the number of parking spaces. After all, is this a case of "single site, multiple uses"? Kowloon City suffers from serious traffic congestion. We asked whether it could relocate Lee Kee Memorial Dispensary and build a car park next to the Kowloon City Market. Again, there was no answer. Can the Secretary tell us how more parking spaces can be provided?

I also wish to talk about smart car parks. Secretary, I am still quite worried. The present progress of the development of smart car parks is extremely slow. I hope the Bureau will give a detailed explanation later. Is it because the construction cost is high, or the Bureau does not want to do so much work in the first place? Or are there other reasons? Can it work out a way to do better? Lastly, I agree, as some Honourable colleagues said, identifying LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1711 more sites next to the railways to serve as car parks for park-and-ride can help ease the traffic pressure. But no matter what, I support the original motion and the amendment.

I so submit. Thank you, Deputy President.

MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, Mr Frankie YICK is not present today. If he is present, I believe the content of this speech will be similar to mine. I thank Mr LUK Chung-hung for moving the motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion" today. I also thank Mr CHAN Han-pan for his amendment.

Deputy President, in the past 10 years, the number of registered vehicles has increased by an average of 3% per year, which was way higher than the 1% increase of the total length of roads in Hong Kong. The increase of drivable roads has not been able to keep up with the growth of the number of vehicles, leading to the worsening traffic congestion in Hong Kong. The Government's effort in alleviating traffic congestion is disappointing. Hong Kong has become a city of traffic jams and travel time has increased significantly. If time is money, Hong Kong people is losing a lot of money by wasting time on traffic congestion. As traffic congestion has incurred huge social, economic and environmental costs to Hong Kong, the Government cannot turn a blind eye to it at all.

The increase in the number of private cars in recent years can be attributed to the population growth in newly developed towns and the failure of transport services to meet the needs of local residents. As a result, people would rather purchase cars for transportation. However, I must take this opportunity to point out that another reason for the increase in the number of private cars is the Government's inadequacy in combating illegal car hire service. As a result, car owners trusted to luck and used their private cars for illegal carriage of passengers for reward. A car hire platform, which was found repeatedly to have arranged to pick up members of the public in private cars without a hire car permit, even claimed that it has 14 000 active drivers in the market. At least 10 000 vehicles can be reduced on the road if the Government decisively bans illegal car hire service. If these some 10 000 cars for illegal car hire service operate just like taxis, there are actually hundreds of thousands of additional cars on the road.

1712 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Deputy President, private cars have always been accused of being the culprit of traffic congestion due to its rapid growth rate of 3.8% annually in the past decade. The Government has tried to reduce the growth of private cars by raising the First Registration Tax and Annual Licence Fee in order to increase the costs of maintaining a car, but the effect was short-lived. The number of private cars kept on rising despite the limited supply of parking spaces. On the contrary, the shortage of parking spaces has aggravated the parking problem faced by commercial vehicles and increased the number of cars searching for parking spaces on the road and parked illegally, which has made traffic congestion even worse.

In scrutinizing the bill on the new generation of on-street parking meters last week, Mr Frankie YICK mentioned that there are currently 800 000 vehicles in Hong Kong, but the number of parking spaces is way fewer than the number of vehicles. Despite the shortage of parking spaces, the Government has still demolished the multi-storey car parks on Murray Road in Central and on Middle Road in Tsim Sha Tsui. Meanwhile, the multi-storey car park in Yau Ma Tei is also being phased out, thus aggravating the shortage of parking spaces in the area.

In order to reduce the number of vehicles searching for parking spaces and illegally parked on the road, the Government should encourage private car park operators to release real-time information on vacant parking spaces, improve the efficiency of parking spaces utilization, and increase the supply of parking spaces by various means, including providing more temporary commercial car parks on land dedicated for that purpose, accelerate the provision of more night-time on-street parking spaces for commercial vehicles, allow minibuses to park at minibus terminus at night, and allow nanny vans to park in the relevant schools at night. In addition, the Government should encourage the public to use public transport, enhance public transport connections and improve accessibility. For this reason, the Liberal Party suggests that the Government should consider setting up dedicated lanes for public transport and relax the restrictions on pick up/drop-off points for taxis and minibuses. Moreover, more park-and-ride facilities should be set up so that people may park outside urban areas before transferring to public transport to reach their destinations, and thereby reducing the road burden downtown.

(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1713

In order to alleviate traffic congestion, the Government is conducting a study on the "Congestion Charging" system, under which vehicles with higher passenger load will enjoy concessionary tolls when using tolled tunnels and roads, with a view to benefiting trucks that contribute to the economy. As for the plan to pilot the Electronic Road Pricing scheme in the business district in Central in order to alleviate the traffic congestion there, since public transport will definitely enter the tolled area, the Liberal Party reckons that all public transport vehicles should be exempted from electronic road pricing in order to attract people to use public transport.

Traffic congestion causes delays in land-based public transport services. Given the regular complaints about lost trips of franchised bus and green minibus services, the public will naturally choose MTR to avoid traffic congestion. As the railway network expands constantly, the passenger loads of taxis and minibuses continue to drop. Hong Kong is a small city with a dense population, so it is understandable that the Government develops railways as the backbone of the public transport system. However, the Government has not formulated a strategy for sustainable development of various transport services in response to the expansion of railways. Even in the Public Transport Strategy Study released by the Government in 2017, only piecemeal measures instead of the right remedies were proposed. Hence, the imbalance in public transport services remains serious, and operators are full of grievances. In order to formulate a long-term and comprehensive overall transport strategy so as to cater for transport demands arising from the future development of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area, and to enable various public transport services to perform their respective functions, I hope the Government will launch the Fourth Comprehensive Transport Study expeditiously as proposed by Mr Frankie YICK in his motion passed in 2015.

President, I so submit.

MR HOLDEN CHOW (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I would like to thank Mr LUK Chung-hung for moving the motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion" today, and Mr CHAN Han-pan for his amendment.

President, regarding the problem of road traffic congestion in Hong Kong, I think it is resulted from the SAR Government's arrangements in handling roads, as even nowadays it still adopts the attitude of "only when there are people will 1714 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 roads be built". Let us think about this concept. After the Government has taken forward some large-scale development projects in which many housing units are built, it will construct suitable roads or ancillary railway facilities when people have moved in and it sees the flow of people and the demand. Yet, in this way, people often have to suffer in the end. On the contrary, roads should be constructed before there are people, because the Government should build all ancillary transport facilities and make preparations before allowing people to move in, so that residents will not have to suffer from traffic congestion. I think this is the crux of the problem.

President, take Tung Chung in New Territories West as an example, we all know that the reclamation project in Tung Chung East is being carried out in full swing. According to the current progress of reclamation, the first batch of residents can move into the area in around 2024. I am talking about tens of thousands of people. However, up to the present since I served as a member of the District Council, I have kept asking about Tung Chung East Station, which is an MTR station constructed to cope with the population growth in the Tung Chung East reclamation area. When will it be commissioned? In 2029. Let us do some calculations. Tens of thousands of people will move into this new area in 2024, coupled with the continuous increase in population which has not yet been taken into account, but the MTR station will not be commissioned until 2029, which is five years later. The new population or growth in the existing population will have to wait all along, and people will have to wait frustratingly long before the commissioning of the MTR station. How will they be satisfied? Why must the Government think that there should be enough population before it will do something? Instead, the Government should first properly deal with the ancillary transport facilities, and let people move into the area only after all these facilities are ready. In fact, this is the right approach to take.

President, let me talk about another example. Take New Territories West as an example, we have told the Secretary time and again through different channels and on various occasions that the population of Tuen Mun or the entire New Territories West, including Yuen Long, etc., has been expanding nowadays due to the numerous development projects there. Yet, now we can see that the transport links from New Territories West to the urban areas are rather limited anyway. Tuen Mun Road is always congested, and big problems will arise when accidents take place. Of course, the Government has already announced the commissioning of the Tuen Mun-Chek Lap Kok Link ("TM-CLKL") at the end of this year―it should be in the end of December―and it is hoped that the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1715 traffic problems can be somewhat eased. Nevertheless, this is still not enough. The transport connection between New Territories West and the urban areas is insufficient after all. In fact, we have also proposed to the Secretary, for example, whether the so-called "Tuen Mun to Tsuen Wan Link" should be constructed to connect Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan. He should have heard us mention this many times. This is in fact feasible, and we have also put forward some proposals to him. However, from the Government's perspective, they may think there is insufficient people flow, or they find it not suitable after assessment, so they have not implemented it. On the contrary, the authorities have drawn up an overall plan in respect of the ancillary railway arrangements for the artificial islands in Central Waters. But rightly as many Honourable Members said today, the railway would only be available upon completion of the artificial islands. To be honest, in this way, the existing residents still have to wait frustratingly long. In the final analysis, I think the problem lies in whether the authorities have changed their mindset, that is, development projects should only be taken forward after traffic arrangements have been made properly.

I also wish to tell the Secretary that when speaking of the traffic problems in Tuen Mun, we certainly have to mention the West Rail. Earlier on, the authorities have announced the latest progress of the Tuen Mun South Extension, which will offer some Tuen Mun residents the option to ride on the railway. But the problem is, those living in Yuen Long or Tin Shui Wai will be worried because they are already unable to board the overcrowded train when they ride on the West Rail during the morning rush hours. We have to ask: Can the Secretary actually urge the Mass Transit Railway Corporation Limited ("MTRCL") to increase the train frequency, or even provide special train services departing from Yuen Long so that passengers can board the train? Actually, this is not a very difficult task. But unfortunately, I have not heard any proper response by the Government. Let us see if the Secretary will bring me some good news today. I really hope he can do these relatively simple things. Much has been said but after all, even if we ask him or MTRCL, they will only say that it is not necessary to do so as the flow of people has not reached the benchmark according to their calculation and assessment. First of all, can the figures they have assessed be wrong? Even if their figures are correct, does it mean that they cannot take a step further to give the public more choices, or to do a better job so that people can feel more comfortable? In fact, it is possible. Therefore, I hope the Secretary can take this opportunity to listen to our views.

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One last point I would like to make is that while TM-CLKL will soon be commissioned, I have expressed to the Secretary repeatedly my worries about the problems with the design of the roundabout there. Vehicles in the opposite direction may cause congestion or pose safety problems. I hope he will pay close attention to this matter. In addition, as there is also a possibility of traffic congestion on Wong Chu Road later on, I hope he will seriously consider widening the road to deal with the situation, and there should be some backup plans to tackle the traffic congestion problem in Tuen Mun.

President, I so submit.

MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of Mr LUK Chung-hung's original motion and Mr CHAN Han-pan's amendment. I have just heard many of my colleagues saying that basically, every Hongkonger has experienced traffic congestion. However, some colleagues have attributed traffic congestion to the large number of private cars and the fact that many people travel by car. I would like to seek justice for car owners of the New Territories, as they likewise suffer traffic congestion and they have no alternative but to drive. For residents of the New Territories who have to take a ride every day, they are either packed like sardines or waiting for a ride that will never arrive; and if they drive, they will only end up in a traffic jam. This is a portrayal of residents of the New Territories. In particular, the SAR Government has been developing a lot of new development areas and public housing estates in the New Territories, and people who prefer a more comfortable environment will also choose to live in small houses in the New Territories. However, these people still need to travel to the urban areas if they work there. Members of the public have no alternative but to choose between taking public transport or the train and driving.

Why do I say that when taking a ride, they are either packed like sardines or waiting for a ride that will never arrive? As I have told the Secretary last time, rural residents must make use of feeder service if they want to take the East Rail or West Rail. Should the authorities have put in place a sound bicycle policy, they can cycle to the train station and then change to the East Rail or West Rail. That said, as they are unable to cycle, they can only take a green minibus. Members from the New Territories all know that, as far as green minibuses are concerned, people cannot get on them at rush hours and see none of them at non-rush hours. For one who wants to go home after getting off work at night, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1717 minibus services end at 9:00 pm. In that case, how can rural residents take a feeder minibus to MTR stations? For this reason, they are forced to drive if they work in the urban areas or Kowloon. Secretary, driving is not cheap, as petrol costs $14 to $15 per litre, two-way tunnel tolls amount to $60 to $70, and there are parking fees. Parking fees in some non-urban and remote areas are $25 per hour or even as expensive as $38 per hour. Should there be a sound railway network and public transport system, no one will want to drive.

As such, the second issue concerns railways. Is our railway network good enough? Now both the East Rail and West Rail are all crammed. In the past, localist Members remarked that―I wonder whether Dr CHENG Chung-tai made such remarks―both the East Rail and the West Rail were crammed because there were too many Individual Visit Scheme travellers. There are no such travellers these days, but our trains are still crammed, and passengers need to wait for two or three trains before being able to board a train. The problem is that the train is overburdened. For this reason, I have suggested the Government construct the Northern Link as soon as possible. I have served as a Legislative Council Member for three terms, and 12 years have passed, but the Northern Link is still nowhere to be seen. Studies are still being conducted. If we have the Northern Link, we will be able to enhance the entire railway network, and people from the New Territories can choose to take either the West Rail or the East Rail. Even though they may not be able to board a train faster, it can at least divert the passenger flow. Why does the Government refuse to do so? Therefore, Members should consider whether the policy of according priority to railways can really solve traffic congestion problems in Hong Kong.

Certainly, Secretary, I am not merely criticizing you, but I am also giving you constructive advice. I suffer traffic congestion on the Tolo Highway each and every day, and I believe you do too. Have you thought about how to solve traffic congestion on the Tolo Highway? During rush hours each morning, the traffic queues stretch from the New Town Plaza to the Racecourse and the Science Park. Have you ever thought about it? No. Secretary, I am now giving you a piece of advice that my team and I have come up with. Can we construct a Sha Tin Bypass by digging a tunnel from the mountain at Tai Po Kau all the way to connect the route where Eagle's Nest Tunnel is located, and to connect Hong Kong Heritage Museum and Che Kung Temple in Sha Tin? This bypass will have a diverting effect, as vehicles do not need to be stuck in a jam on the Tolo Highway. Have the authorities given any consideration to it? Have they not conducted any studies? I am now putting forward this proposal to the 1718 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020

Secretary. In fact, I already put forward this proposal two years ago, which was probably put on the shelf by the Government. I hope that the Secretary will give some consideration to it afterwards. If a Sha Tin Bypass can be constructed, traffic congestion on the Tolo Highway can be resolved for certain.

Second, as mentioned by Mrs Regina IP just now, there are many newly-built private residential developments surrounding the Science Park which are facing great traffic pressure. Traffic problems of local residents and Science Park commuters all need to be solved. Traffic congestion occurs in the vicinity of the University Station as they travel to the station for interchanges during rush hours. Therefore, if the Government heeds the advice of District Council members or local residents by reinstating an East Rail station planned previously for Pak Shek Kok, the outbound traffic problems of Pak Shek Kok and the Science Park will be solved. This is killing two birds with one stone. Will the authorities consider it? I reflected this to the East Rail and it responded that the proposal would not be adopted as the expected patronage would not be high. We have come to an impasse, as the Government refuses to adopt any proposal and are being accused of failing to resolve traffic congestion.

As such, Secretary, I am not merely criticizing you, but I am also making suggestions to you, which I hope you will seriously consider. It is alright if you cannot give a reply today. You can tell us after the meeting as to which proposal will be adopted to solve traffic congestion problems in Hong Kong.

President, I so submit.

DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): We are now discussing the motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion".

Road traffic congestion is an issue that is closely related to other issues. Road traffic congestion, an overburdened public transport system, number of traffic accidents, duration of passenger waiting time and even exorbitant rents and property prices are all issues that are closely related in general. What does this mean? Road traffic congestion is certainly related to the design of transport, roads and flow of vehicles, but this can be generally referred to as urban planning.

I believe that the Secretary must have read a book by CHAN Tat-choi entitled 《沙田新市鎮規劃故事》(A Story of Planning for the Sha Tin New Town). I wonder whether other Members present have also read this book by LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1719

CHAN Tat-choi, a former Government Town Planner. In the days when I was a university student, we often discussed the Sha Tin model whenever we talked about urban planning. I wonder whether people nowadays still talk about it.

Speaking of urban planning for new towns in Hong Kong, we will certainly refer to Sha Tin. We do not only talk about how planning for roads or public housing in Sha Tin dovetails with the way of everyday life of modern urbanites, or how their needs are well catered for in terms of clothing, food, accommodation and transportation. People who reside in the New Territories East know that the development of Sha Tin was undertaken from the mid-1970s to 1980s. Public housing estates were developed step-by-step along the banks of the Shing Mun River, and a strip of land in the middle was reserved as open space. Industrial areas were extended in a gradual manner. Traffic congestion in Sha Tin nowadays is certainly serious, but this was not the case in the Sha Tin of those years known by us. The reason is that roads in Sha Tin were planned as a grid system and well connected. In particular, the East Rail Line and two or three tunnels traverse the district.

As such, when we examine traffic congestion from the perspective of urban planning these days, residents of the New Territories West are particularly envious of what was undertaken from the mid-1970s to 1980s. What saddens us most is that the person-in-charge was Donald TSANG in those years. Do we still remember former Chief Executive Donald TSANG? He was the then District Officer for Sha Tin, and his greatest achievement was the planning for Sha Tin. Why was it possible in the past, but not now? Is it because the Government has undertaken too many initiatives? Merely one minor collision on the Tuen Mun Road any day is enough to cause traffic congestion, not to mention the serial crash involving some 10 vehicles several weeks ago. For residents of Tuen Mun and Yuen Long who go to work in the urban areas every day, the time their round trip requires is enough for them to travel to and from Taiwan. This is how they spend their lives. How many love stories have taken place on the Tuen Mun Road? Residents of the New Territories West certainly know that this is an overall drain on society.

As such, when we discuss the issue of traffic congestion, we should not simply consider how long it takes to build an MTR line, how many private vehicles we have, and whether parking spaces are sufficient. That should not be the case. Comprehensive urban planning is actually a broad concept that concerns quality of life of the public. Why is it that all these things are absent when Hong Kong has been turned into such a state?

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Secretary, to put it bluntly, this is because the Hong Kong Government has simply given up urban planning for Hong Kong. Why? How do we know when our country will introduce another five-year plan and promote the development of the Greater Bay Area? The Government is now in a subservient position only. It also advocates the development of North West New Territories in Hong Kong. My dear colleagues, some 5 or 10 years ago, we were still discussing Energizing Kowloon East. Do Members still remember Energizing Kowloon East? It was said then that Hong Kong should not have only one central business district ("CBD"), and we should not have Central as our only CBD. We also discussed a proposed electronic road pricing scheme in Central and conducted phased studies on its implementation. Now we seem to have forgotten all this. It was said that one CBD would be developed in Kowloon East and the Government would take the lead to relocate to the New Territories West for developing another CBD. However, after all the talk, now there is only Lantau Tomorrow Vision. Why so? This is because our SAR Government has basically lost the Hong Kong-oriented governing ideology.

All traffic congestion problems are, in the eyes of the public, revolving around the waiting time for an MTR train. When MTR fares are ever increasing, how can the Government still advocate using railways as the backbone? Secretary, over the past two weeks, there happens to be a spate of accidents on the Tsuen Wan Line virtually each morning. Why? It is basically overburdened. All things are closely related. The Secretary is not serving at the right time. He is the Secretary for Transport and Housing. This issue was previously under the charge of the Development Bureau. Development issues should be under the charge of the Development Bureau, but the Government has split all these issues. Therefore, the Development Bureau only takes charge of Lantau Tomorrow Vision, and the Secretary takes charge of the second and third steps, which are of secondary importance. It is unfair that all political parties blame him for inadequate housing supply and traffic congestion. President, urban planning is not under the charge of the Secretary. He is only responsible for considering all the designs, enabling people to be expeditiously allocated public housing and building more railways and roads as soon as possible. But these things cannot be done more quickly than housing development, right?

For this reason, the alleviation of road traffic congestion is certainly a political issue. Will the Hong Kong Government reinitiate urban planning for this place known as Hong Kong, or will it only be duty-bound to cater to the development of the Greater Bay Area and greater Shenzhen? I so submit.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1721

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I am very grateful to Mr LUK Chung-hung for moving this motion on "Alleviating road traffic congestion" today. President, it has been a long time since we have had the opportunity to discuss a Member's motion. I have so strong a feeling on this, especially when we look at who has pressed this "Request to speak" button. It turns out that we have not done so for such a long time. Now that we are back to normal, hence we must particularly cherish this opportunity to discuss some major livelihood issues of Members' concern.

Traffic congestion is of course an agony in Hong Kong society. The Government put forward the principle of "single site, multiple uses" in the Policy Address 2018, under which at least 1 500 public parking spaces would be provided in the next five years. Most of them would be situated in government sites with relatively low pedestrian flow. Notwithstanding this, the number of parking spaces in government car parks managed by the Transport Department has decreased from 6 871 in 2004 to 3 191 in this year (i.e. 2020). The number of parking spaces has been reduced by as much as 46%. In principle, there would only be an addition of 1 500 parking spaces as proposed in the 2018 Policy Address, but if they have to honour their promise, the problem of insufficient parking spaces cannot be solved. In recent years, the Government has closed one after another several car parks that we frequently use. All of them are very popular as they are located in busy areas such as Central, Wan Chai, Yau Ma Tei and Middle Road in Tsim Sha Tsui. More than 2 000 parking spaces in these government public car parks, which are located in areas with heavy pedestrian flow and traffic flow, have been closed.

I recall that we also had the opportunity to talk about parking spaces during the deliberation of a piece of subsidiary legislation some time earlier. We also have reasons to believe that the Government may have to act in tandem with the Environment Bureau, thinking that reducing the number of parking spaces can bring down the number of drivers and private cars, thereby alleviating the air pollution problem, etc. In our opinion, this is not a desirable approach to tackle the air pollution problem. Just as an overweight person is advised by his doctor to lose weight, he will not be taught to deliberately make himself suffer from indigestion which will cause stomachache, so that he will lose his appetite, but ruin his health in the end. In fact, he should do some exercises to ameliorate his problem. Therefore, if we merely rely on the reduction of parking spaces without planning, the roads in Hong Kong will have serious problems. It is because there is always such a demand in the market, when the number of 1722 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 parking spaces has decreased but the number of vehicles remains the same, many people will be forced to park their vehicles all around. People have to cross the roads as well, making the roads available for traffic narrower and narrower. I drove out on weekends recently, and the roads were really narrow. Congestion certainly occurred because the road traffic was not smooth at all. Many people simply parked their vehicles across the road. I believe the car owners might not want to do so, because the fine is even more expensive if they are issued with a penalty ticket. But when people cannot find a parking space even after driving around the street for a long time, the problem will be even bigger because they will be late, or some people may even become agitated and have heart attacks, etc.

For this reason, there must be better planning in the long run. When formulating plans for additional housing supply or redevelopment, sufficient parking spaces must be included. Therefore, I agree with part of the comments made by Dr CHENG Chung-tai just now that the Government has no planning at present. For instance, when they propose to redevelop old areas here, they will require all developers taking up the projects to build underground car parks, otherwise there will be no parking spaces. As a result, there are no parking spaces in many new housing developments in Kowloon West, and even those housing developments in luxury residential areas. Residents have to park their vehicles somewhere nearby. They either have to pay sky-high prices or they will have no parking spaces. Why? In fact, I have asked those developers and was told that they would not build underground car parks in housing developments of a relatively small scale as it was costly. Has the Government taken such cost into account when carrying out redevelopment or allocating land for development? Has the Government required developers to include the cost of underground car parks in the entire package? Sufficient parking spaces should be available for the residents or owners since these are luxury residential areas. But the answer is "no".

Besides, why was the toll adjustment proposal for traffic rationalization among the three road harbour crossings dropped back then? I think it was the result of inadequate planning. At that time, they failed to reach a consensus on the toll levels of the Hung Hom Cross-Harbour Tunnel ("CHT") and the Western Harbour Crossing ("WHC"), since CHT would have to raise its tolls by double, whereas WHC would have to reduce its tolls. Actually, a point which may warrant careful consideration is that, some people who are more impatient may still want to enjoy the convenience of using WHC. This being so, will the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 18 November 2020 1723

Government separate the two tunnels to allow people who are willing to pay higher tolls to use WHC as a fast track? Has the Government ever considered these issues? If they have not considered them carefully, the proposal will not be passed due to political reasons and public opinions. I am just pointing out the problems boldly, and I am now putting forward some suggestions on the directions regarding how the three cross harbour tunnels should be handled. Or can we learn from the practice of other places? I think this is worth considering. Should the Government not charge tolls in this way, or should we get back the ownership of WHC?

Finally, I have to show you this "birth certificate" again. At the time when I have just become a Member representing the Kowloon West Constituency, I have already proposed to the Government that we should make good use of water transport―I have mentioned this in my election manifesto for almost every campaign―with a view to alleviating the problem of road traffic congestion. In particular, we can see that the roads were completely blocked off during the "black-clad violence" incidents last year. However, the Government still only focuses on outlying islands during the discussion on ferry services. Actually, there are also very popular ferry routes in Kowloon, such as routes from Hung Hom to Central, North Point, Wan Chai, or from the West Kowloon Cultural District to Kowloon East. Can the Government give consideration to this? It should not be confined to serving only the tourists, but should also serve local needs.

President, I so submit.

SUSPENSION OF MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now suspend the meeting until 9:00 am tomorrow.

Suspended accordingly at 6:30 pm.