Wednesday Volume 543 25 April 2012 No. 294

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 25 April 2012

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House of Commons TRANSPORT FOR LONDON BILL [LORDS] Motion made, That so much of the Lords Message [23 April] as relates to the Wednesday 25 April 2012 Transport for London Bill [Lords] be now considered.— (The Chairman of Ways and Means.) The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Hon. Members: Object. To be considered on Monday 30 April. PRAYERS Oral Answers to Questions [MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS WALES

CANTERBURY CITY COUNCIL BILL The Secretary of State was asked— Motion made, That so much of the Lords Message [23 April] as relates to the Foreign Business Investment Canterbury City Council Bill be now considered.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) 1. Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and others on Hon. Members: Object. marketing Wales as a destination for foreign business To be considered on Monday 30 April. investment. [104184]

LEEDS CITY COUNCIL BILL 3. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What discussions Motion made, she has had with ministerial colleagues and others on marketing Wales as a destination for foreign business That so much of the Lords Message [23 April] as relates to the [104186] Leeds City Council Bill be now considered.—(The Chairman of investment. Ways and Means.) The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Hon. Members: Object. I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues and others on marketing Wales as a destination for To be considered on Monday 30 April. foreign business investment. The recent Select Committee on Welsh Affairs report on inward investment in Wales NOTTINGHAM CITY COUNCIL BILL highlighted a number of important issues, and we are Motion made, committed to closer joint working with the Welsh That so much of the Lords Message [23 April] as relates to the Government to deliver more inward investment to Wales. Nottingham City Council Bill be now considered.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Stuart Andrew: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. One of the best ways to improve foreign Hon. Members: Object. investment in Wales is for the UK and Welsh Governments To be considered on Monday 30 April. to work more closely together. Does she regret the apparent unwillingness of the Welsh Business Minister READING BOROUGH COUNCIL BILL to do just that? Motion made, That so much of the Lords Message [23 April] as relates to the Mrs Gillan: As the Welsh Affairs Committee has Reading Borough Council Bill be now considered.—(The Chairman made clear in the inquiry into foreign direct investment, of Ways and Means.) co-operation between both Governments is considered essential to marketing Wales and for potential investors. Hon. Members: Object. However, as economic development is devolved and led To be considered on Monday 30 April. by the Labour Government in Wales, I share my hon. Friend’s disappointment that the Business Minister did CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS)BILL [LORDS] not give evidence to the Committee. I hope that we can Motion made, develop a more mature attitude, as FDI projects in Wales have diminished over the years and we need to That so much of the Lords Message [23 April] as relates to the City of London (Various Powers) Bill [Lords] be now considered.— get them back up, so that we are competing effectively. (The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Karl McCartney: I thank my right hon. Friend for her Hon. Members: Object. earlier answer. Does she agree that it is right to explore investment opportunities in emerging markets? There To be considered on Monday 30 April. are markets close to home, such as in the Commonwealth of Nations, which consists of 54 countries and has a CITY OF WESTMINSTER BILL [LORDS] population of 3.5 billion-plus, that also offer important Motion made, investment potential. That so much of the Lords Message [23 April] as relates to the City of Westminster Bill [Lords] be now considered.—(The Chairman Mrs Gillan: The Prime Minister himself has said that of Ways and Means.) he wants “to link Britain up to the fastest growing parts of the world, Hon. Members: Object. because we need to trade and export our way out of our economic To be considered on Monday 30 April. difficulties.” 935 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 936

We inherited those from the previous Government. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales That is why I have taken such a tremendous interest in (Mr David Jones): As a result of the Budget the Welsh this area and why I am very pleased that we have now Government will benefit from an additional £11.7 million joined up UK Trade & Investment to the Welsh over the spending review period. Consequently, they Government. We have offered at least one of UKTI’s will have received nearly £500 million in additional investment advisers to work in the Welsh Government funding since the spending review in 2010. offices in Treforest and for there to be two-way secondees between UKTI and the Welsh Government. That is real Mark Tami: The granny tax, the pasty tax and cutting progress and it shows that we can get our two Governments the top rate of tax for the rich while shutting Remploy working together in the interests of Wales. factories that give disabled people the dignity of work: those are the priorities of this Government. The caravan Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): As the Secretary of tax will hit thousands of hard-working families in Wales, State knows, good air transport links are essential in particularly in north Wales. Will the Minister speak to attracting business investment to Wales. What discussions the Chancellor and get him to scrap the caravan tax, has she had with the First Minister and the Welsh rather than sitting on his hands like the hon. Member Government about improving the links between Cardiff for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) did the other evening? airport and the rest of the world? Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman should not get so Mrs Gillan: As the right hon. Lady knows, I have aerated. The Government fully recognise the importance constant discussions with the First Minister and the of the holiday and touring park sector to the Welsh Welsh Government, as does the Under-Secretary. We tourism industry and to the economy of Wales as a have certainly discussed the links and there has been whole. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is consulting some discussion of Cardiff airport. I am pleased to say on the proposals, as he should know, and I hope he will that I have invited the owners of the airport to meet me play a part in that consultation, which closes on 18 May. shortly, because I have been concerned about some of the reports I have heard in the press. We should be Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Will my hon. trying to talk Cardiff airport up, not down. Friend confirm that the Red Book reveals that although 14 Government Departments will see reductions in Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I certainly welcome the spending over the next four years, spending in Wales announcement by the Labour Welsh Government that increases year on year despite the fact that the Welsh Tata Steel will invest £800 million in Wales, but as the Assembly Government underspent by £385 million last Secretary of State will know Tata bosses have repeatedly year while cutting health spending in Wales? said that the prices they have to pay for energy in the UK are simply not competitive when compared with Mr Jones: Absolutely. The reduction in the Welsh what industry pays elsewhere. What discussions has she health budget is a matter of shame for the Welsh had with the Energy Secretary and energy companies to Assembly Government. I repeat that the Welsh Government secure a better deal on energy prices for heavy industry will have had almost an additional £500 million since to provide an incentive for companies such as Tata to the spending review in 2010. invest in Wales? Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Is it fair that Welsh Mrs Gillan: One of the first things I did when I was churches, charities, caravanners, pensioners and almost appointed was visit Tata Steel, and I took the Business everybody else will pay more taxes so that millionaires Secretary, Vince Cable, with me to discuss energy prices. can each pay £40,000 less? The hon. Lady should know that all the Departments have been focused on the energy-intensive industries because we want to ensure that there are good manufacturing Mr Jones: That is a very strange rhetorical question. jobs in the future, not just in Wales but elsewhere in the The right hon. Gentleman will know that the reduction UK. I have read the press release from the Welsh in the top rate of tax will not take effect until the end of Government and the First Minister and he says that he the public spending freeze and it is quite interesting that was told at a meeting in India that £800 million has the Government of whom he was a member did not see been approved over the next five years for investment in fit to increase the rate of tax until a matter of weeks Tata Steel in Wales. I look forward to seeing the detail, before their last Budget. because it seems to be a general announcement at this stage without too much detail attached to it. Mr Hain: I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman is not ashamed of that impact on some of the most vulnerable in our society. Can we in Wales, through Mr Speaker: The Secretary of State was referring to him, apologise to the Secretary of State? We used to the right hon. Member for Twickenham. We do not think that she was all on her own at sea in the Cabinet, name people in this place. but clearly they are now all at sea together. The Budget omnishambles, Abu Qatada, petrol pump panic—at Budget (Welsh Assembly) least Wales has a Labour Government to give us some protection from this Tory-Lib Dem incompetence. At 2. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): What least Wales can reject this disastrous Budget by voting assessment she has made of the effect of the Budget on Labour in the council elections next Thursday. the National Assembly for Wales; and if she will make a statement. [104185] Mr Jones: I am still waiting for the question, Mr Speaker. 937 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 938

Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Does Mr Mark Williams: I thank the Minister for that the Minister agree that with new law-making powers response and congratulate him on his part in securing and a £15 billion budget, the Welsh Assembly Government £57 million for Wales and, of course, the broadband have both the tools and the money to make a real and provision for Cardiff. However, on the roll-out of broadband lasting difference in Wales? in scattered rural areas, does the Minister share the frustrations of many in my constituency—small business Mr Jones: Yes, indeed. It is vital, too, that the Welsh men, and consumers trying to access their bank Assembly Government work closely with the Government accounts—at the speed with which that is being delivered in Westminster for the good of the people of Wales. I in Wales when compared with authorities such as Cornwall, very much hope that we will now see a far more joined-up which are speeding ahead? approach taken by the Welsh Assembly Government in that regard. Mr Jones: As my hon. Friend says, the Government Enterprise Zones have made available a total of £56.9 million to help bring superfast broadband to Wales. The Welsh Government are working with Broadband Delivery UK 4. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What on how best to employ the funding, but we are indeed assessment she has made of the treatment of capital looking to the Welsh Government to make an allowances in enterprise zones in Wales; and if she will announcement as to their contribution to speed up the make a statement. [104187] process. I am sure, however, that my hon. Friend will be pleased with the announcement by BT last December The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): that 33 rural communities will have access to faster The Chancellor announced funding for enhanced capital broadband by this summer, including Aberystwyth. allowances in the Deeside enterprise zone in the Budget in addition to the money already provided for enterprise zones in Wales. We are committed to looking at how we Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The South Wales chamber can provide these allowances elsewhere but the Welsh of commerce has called for a more ambitious target for Government must develop strong, detailed and robust broadband speeds in Wales for 2015, at 50 megabits per business cases. second from the previous target of 30. What are the Government doing here, in conjunction with the Welsh Nick Smith: I thank the Secretary of State for her Government, to achieve such a target, which could interest in the Blaenau Gwent enterprise zone. Plans for clearly be very beneficial for Welsh business? a motor industry complex there are now at a critical juncture. We need to know if capital allowances can be Mr Jones: It would indeed be beneficial, and I am delivered or if other tax treatments are a better prospect. sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall that in the May I press her for a meeting between developers and Budget a sum of £12 million was made available to help the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, so that we can transform Cardiff into a super-connected city, which thrash out a solution? should result in speeds of between 60 and 100 megabits per second—plus, of course, wi-fi connectivity. Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman has worked tirelessly for his constituency to develop these proposals for the Hywel Williams: Cardiff is not Wales, although some Ebbw Vale enterprise zone, and I really do congratulate people might be under that misapprehension. Countries him on that. We have met on other occasions and I have such as Finland and Malta have introduced a universal written to him again today, saying that I am very willing service obligation on internet coverage and connections to try to secure a meeting with the Chief Secretary to similar to that for the postal service, to ensure that the Treasury, but without a business case, the Treasury everybody has equal access to the internet and its cannot make any decisions on further enhanced capital advantages, irrespective of location, be that rural or allowances. I urge the hon. Gentleman to discuss the otherwise. Will the Government look into that, and do subject with the Welsh Government as well as with our so in time for the next communications Bill—or perhaps Government. it is something that the Welsh Government can do Broadband Technology under the powers set out in part 4 of the Government of Wales Act 2006? 5. Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and Mr Jones: I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman: others on funding for broadband technology in Wales. Cardiff is not Wales, but he referred specifically to the [104188] South Wales chamber of commerce. Indeed, as he knows, it is the ambition of this Government to ensure that 8. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What superfast broadband is rolled out throughout the United discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and Kingdom by the end of this Parliament, and at the others on funding for broadband technology in Wales. moment we are on track. [104191] Bob Blackman: Broadband suppliers have shown a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales marked reluctance to invest in Wales. Does my hon. (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary Friend agree that it is important that the people of of State has had, and continues to have, regular discussions Wales have the benefit of new technology, and that with ministerial colleagues, Welsh Government Ministers perhaps the Welsh Assembly might use some of this and other interested parties on the funding of broadband vast underspend to invest in Wales, so that everyone has technology in Wales. the benefit of broadband? 939 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 940

Mr Jones: Yes, indeed. As I said in reply to the hon. job losses in the public sector, and private sector employment Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), the Welsh Assembly in Wales rose by 12,000 between quarter 3 in 2010 and Government are expected to contribute to the process. quarter 3 in 2011. They are working well with BDUK, but we are waiting for their commitment in financial terms. South Wales Valley Railways

Economic Growth 7. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): What recent progress has been made on electrification of the south Wales valley railways; and if she will make a statement. 6. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): [104190] What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on encouraging economic growth in Wales. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales [104189] (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend and I are working with the Secretary of State for Transport and The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Welsh Ministers on the business case for electrification Economic growth is a key priority for this Government of the south Wales valley lines. We expect to make an and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues announcement in the summer. on ways to encourage economic growth in Wales. Yesterday I met the business advisory group and heard directly Huw Irranca-Davies: My hon. Friend the Member for from members how this Government’s growth policies Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) has the lovely Ebbw vale are helping businesses in Wales to face the current line. I live in the beautiful Llynfi valley and catch the economic challenges. Maesteg to Gloucester train via all points including Cardiff and Newport, a route which sometimes takes Andrew Selous: Does the Secretary of State agree that me through the delightful constituency of the hon. the fact that the recent Budget is taking 95,000 people Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). All out of tax altogether in Wales is a big boost for business these link even as far west as Swansea. We are all valleys in Wales, as more people will have greater spending people on valleys rail connections, so when considering power and find it worth their while to be in work? electrification for south Wales and the valleys, will the Minister’s definition of south Wales be my definition—the Mrs Gillan: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. It definition of the people of south Wales—because when must be very good for those people whom we have it comes to electrification, we are all in this together? taken out of tax altogether and the lower paid workers who will benefit from our tax changes, because it will Mr Jones: Yes, indeed. We recognise the importance put money directly back in their pockets rather better of the electrification of the south Wales valley lines to than the Welsh Labour Government down in Cardiff the economy of the Cardiff city region and wider. The Bay, under whose auspices council tax has doubled in Chancellor of the Exchequer singled out electrification Wales. of those lines as a key infrastructure priority in the Budget, and I was delighted that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister confirmed his personal commitment Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) to that when he visited Wales earlier this month. (PC): The Budget included a clear framework for reducing localised pay in the public sector. Considering that there Rail Transport is a direct link between money in people’s pockets and spending in the local economy, how will depressing pay encourage economic growth in the poorest parts of the 9. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): What recent British state? discussions she has had with the First Minister of Wales on developing rail transport in Wales. [104192]

Mrs Gillan: When it comes to local pay, our aim is to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales create a more flexible labour market that is more responsive (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend has regular to the challenging economic conditions we currently discussions with the First Minister about a range of face. We want to create more private sector growth and, transport issues that affect Wales, most recently last as a consequence, wealth in Wales and across the UK. week.

Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): Albert Owen: Has the Wales Office done a study of If the Secretary of State thinks this Government are the impact of High Speed 2 on Wales, and has the Wales interested in growth, she is living in cloud cuckoo land. Office put the case for improving the lines west of Is she not keeping up with today’s news that shows that Crewe and line speeds, as well as possible electrification, the Chancellor’s obsessive intention of cutting too deep so that we can have a high-speed Wales? and too fast is taking us back into recession? Mr Jones: I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern Mrs Gillan: No. I have to say that today’s news is about speeds on the north Wales coast line. The Wales disappointing but not totally unexpected. Britain cannot Office discusses these matters regularly with the Department be immune to what is happening on our doorstep. For for Transport and will continue to do so. example, Italy, Holland, Ireland, Belgium and Portugal are already in recession. But let us remember that since Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): What discussions the coalition took office in 2010, more than 630,000 has the Minister had with the European Parliament on private sector jobs have been created, more than outstripping trans-European network funding to enhance the railways? 941 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 942

Mr Jones: As we consider what methods to adopt to Aerospace Industry improve the funding regime for railway lines in Wales, we will certainly look carefully at the EU TEN network 11. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): funding, which is available from the European Community. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and others on the aerospace industry in Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): As we Wales. [104194] know, economic growth is one of the ways we can improve infrastructure in Wales, but to do so we need a The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): modern railway, and that means electrification as far as I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues Swansea. What impact assessment has been made of and other organisations on a range of issues, including the effect on the commuter and holiday trade of rail the aerospace industry in Wales. electrification to Swansea? Gavin Williamson: Does the Secretary of State agree Mr Jones: I commend the hon. Lady for her interest that, while the UK Government have taken a lead in in this matter on behalf of her constituents and can establishing enterprise zones, the onus is now on the assure her that we remain very interested in the electrification Welsh Government to ensure that their enterprise zone of the line and are working closely with the Welsh for the aerospace industry in St Athan is a success? Assembly Government to develop the business case. [Interruption.] Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As far as enterprise zones are concerned, a great deal depends Mr Speaker: Order. Far too many noisy private on what the Labour Welsh Government will do, because conversations are taking place. Let us have a bit of hush we have capital allowances for only one enterprise zone, for Mr Robert Halfon. which is already in Deeside. The enterprise zone to which he refers will be crucial to the UK and will secure work on the next generation of aircraft, because some Fuel Prices 27,000 large aircraft, worth $3 trillion, will be needed over the next 20 years, around 7,000 new helicopters 10. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What recent will be required within the next decade and there is a assessment she has made of the effect of petrol and huge potential future market in unmanned air vehicles, diesel prices on the Welsh economy. [104193] and I want us to benefit from that demand in the aerospace business in Wales. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): The Government recognise that Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Is it not the case that the businesses, individuals and families are struggling with success of the UK aerospace industry is due to government the rising cost of fuel, particularly in rural areas. We and industry work together—[Interruption]—and that have eased the burden on motorists by approximately saying that business succeeds because government gets £4.5 billion through the abolition of the fuel duty out of the way is arrant nonsense? escalator and the introduction of the fair fuel stabiliser and by cutting fuel duty. Mrs Gillan: Over this noise, Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that government should Robert Halfon: I welcome the Government’s cuts in get out of the way of business. Indeed, that is exactly fuel duty, but the market price of oil is still too high, what this Government are doing, with the red tape partly because of oil speculation. The United States is challenge, by reducing the bureaucracy that the previous bringing in tough penalties for price fixing and market Labour Government imposed on our industries, and by manipulation. Will the Minister urge his Government reducing the rate of corporation tax so that our business colleagues to look at this and put pressure on the big oil environment can be one of the most competitive in the firms to cut prices at the pumps? G20. Budget (Women) Mr Jones: As I have said, the Government recognise the impact of the rising cost of fuel on people and 13. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): What businesses in Wales. However, it should be remembered assessment she has made of the implications of the that the duty increase that was expected to take place in Budget for women in Wales. [104196] January this year has been deferred to August and we have cancelled the inflation increase planned for August, The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): which means that there will be just one inflation-only Last month’s Budget was one of fairness and values. increase this year. Although we had to make some difficult decisions, we are committed to ensuring that women all over the UK Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Can the Minister play a full part in the economic recovery. tell us the price of a litre of fuel this time last year and today, and is the rise anything to do with the VAT Mrs Moon: Women in Wales are suffering and struggling increase that he voted for? with rising food prices, the rising cost of living and the rising costs of child care. In the most recent quarter, Mr Jones: The price of a litre of fuel in my 4,000 additional women became unemployed. How many constituency—I assume the right hon. Gentleman means women in Wales will benefit from the reduction in petrol—is approximately £1.40. I will be happy to write taxation on high-level earners from 50% to 45%? Will to him with the figure for last year. that benefit women in Wales? 943 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 944

Mrs Gillan: Despite the recession, the employment The Prime Minister: These are very, very disappointing rate for women remains historically high, at 65.3% now figures. I do not seek to excuse them, I do not seek to try compared with 53% in 1971. Employment has fallen to explain them away, and let me be absolutely clear that more sharply among men during the recession, so frankly there is no complacency at all in this Government in it will be expected to rise more quickly as the economy dealing with what is a very tough situation that, frankly, recovers. This is, however, the fourth consecutive set of has just got tougher. I believe the truth is this: it is very figures to show employment and economic activity difficult recovering from the deepest recession in living rising in Wales, which I would have thought the hon. memory, accompanied as it was by a debt crisis. Our Lady would have welcomed. banks had too much debt, our households had too much debt, our Government had too much debt. We have to rebalance our economy, we need a bigger private PRIME MINISTER sector, we need more exports and more investment. This is painstaking, difficult work, but we will stick with our The Prime Minister was asked— plans, stick with the low interest rates and do everything that we can to boost growth, competitiveness and jobs in our country. Engagements Edward Miliband: Typical of this arrogant Prime Q1. [105079] Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Minister—he tries to blame everyone else. The reality is Sheppey) (Con): If he will list his official engagements that this is a recession made by him and the Chancellor for Wednesday 25 April. in Downing street. Over the last 18 months since the The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure catastrophic spending review, our economy has shrunk. the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute This is a slower recovery from recession even than that to Sapper Connor Ray, of 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive in the 1930s. The reality is that it is families and businesses Ordnance Disposal), who died on Wednesday 18 April from who are paying the price for his arrogance and complacency. wounds that he sustained in Afghanistan. He was described Why does he not admit that it is his catastrophic economic by all who served with him as a superb soldier. His policy, his plan for austerity, which is cutting too far dedication and his courage will never be forgotten, and and too fast, that has landed us back in recession? we send our condolences to his family and his loved ones. The Prime Minister: Not a single business organisation, This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues serious commentator or international body thinks that and others, and in addition to my duties in this House I these problems emerged in the last 24 months. The debt shall have further such meetings later today. crisis has been long in making; the failure to regulate Gordon Henderson: I associate myself with the Prime our banks has been long in making; the Government Minister’s tribute to Sapper Connor Ray and, in doing overspending has been long in making. This is a tough so, ask my right hon. Friend whether he will confirm and difficult situation that the economy is in, but the that, although British servicemen and women are scheduled one thing that we must not do is abandon the public to leave Afghanistan in 2014, the actual pace of withdrawal spending and deficit reduction plans, because the solution will be determined first and foremost by the need to to a debt crisis cannot be more debt. We must not put at minimise the risk to those members of our armed forces risk the low interest rates that are absolutely essential to serving in Afghanistan at that time. our recovery—that would be absolute folly. That is why no business organisation and no international economic The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important organisation suggests we follow that course. point. I can confirm that by the end of 2014 we will not have anything like the troop numbers that we have now, Edward Miliband: It is all bluster; the Prime Minister’s and we will not be in a combat role. Of course, post plan has failed. That is the reality. They were the people 2014 we do believe in having a training role with the who said that Britain was a safe haven—the Chancellor Afghan army, particularly the officer training role that even said it on Monday—and we are back in recession. President Karzai has personally asked for us to undertake. It was the Prime Minister who said that we were The speed of the reductions between now and the end “out of the danger zone”—[Official Report, 15 December 2010; of 2014 will be in accordance with the conditions on the Vol. 520, c. 901.] ground and with what is right in terms of transitioning and this is what has happened. As even his own Back from allied control to Afghan control—and at all times, Benchers are saying, the complacent, “arrogant posh of course, paramount in our minds is the safety and boys” just don’t get it. security of our brave armed forces, to whom I pay tribute again today. Let us turn from the economic disaster of this Government to the political disaster that is the Culture Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the Secretary. We now know, from the evidence published Prime Minister in paying tribute to Sapper Connor Ray yesterday, that throughout the time when the Culture of 33 Engineer Regiment. He carried out his duties with Secretary was supposed to be acting in an impartial the utmost courage, saving many Afghan and British manner, he and his office were providing in advance a lives by what he did, and our deepest condolences go to constant flow of confidential information to News his family and friends. Corporation about statements to be made in this House, Today we had the catastrophic news that Britain is his private discussions with the regulators and his discussions back in recession. I am sure that the Prime Minister has with opposing parties. Having seen the 163 pages published spent the past 24 hours thinking of an excuse as to why yesterday, is the Prime Minister seriously telling us that it is nothing to do with him, so what is his excuse the Secretary of State was acting as he should have this time? done, in a transparent, impartial and fair manner? 945 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 946

The Prime Minister: Let me first of all finish off on Is it not typical of the right hon. Gentleman? In the the economy, which the right hon. Gentleman has moved morning he sets out his very clear position, but in the off—[Interruption.] afternoon he cannot resist the passing political bandwagon.

Mr Speaker: Order. Let us hear what the Prime Edward Miliband: Totally—[Interruption.] Minister has to say on the economy, and on anything else. Mr Speaker: Order. I said the Prime Minister must be heard, and the Leader of the Opposition must be heard. The Prime Minister: We will not let anyone forget Both will be heard, however long it takes. It is very who got us into this mess in the first place. More clear. spending, more borrowing, more debt—that is what caused these problems; it cannot be the solution to Edward Miliband: Totally pathetic answers. He is the these problems. Prime Minister. If he cannot defend the conduct of his own Ministers, his Ministers should be out of the door. Let me turn to the Leveson inquiry. I set up the He should fire them. He does not even try to defend the Leveson inquiry and its terms of reference were agreed Secretary of State and what he did. The Secretary of by the leader of the Liberal Democrat party and the State told the House on 3 March, in answer to a leader of the Labour party. I believe that to step in and question from the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony prejudge that inquiry would be wrong. Lord Justice Baldry), that Leveson has made that precise point this morning. Let me read to the House what he has said. [Interruption.] “today we are publishing…all the consultation documents, all the submissions we received, all the exchanges between my Department Perhaps the House would like to listen. [Interruption.] and News Corporation.”—[Official Report, 3 March 2011; Vol. 524, c. 526.] Mr Speaker: Order. Let us hear what the Prime But he did not, because 163 pages have now emerged. Minister has to say, and then the questioning will continue. The Prime Minister does not defend him over giving confidential information to one party in the case; he The Prime Minister: Lord Justice Leveson said this does not defend him over collusion; is he really going to morning that defend him about not being straight with this House of “it is very important to hear every side of the story before Commons? drawing conclusions.” He then said that The Prime Minister: Let me make it absolutely clear that the Culture Secretary, who has my full support for “although I have seen requests for other inquiries and investigations the excellent job that he does, will be giving a full and, of course, I do not seek to constrain Parliament, it seems to me that the better course is to allow this Inquiry to proceed.” account of himself in this House of Commons this afternoon and in front of the Leveson inquiry, and he Having set up this inquiry and agreed with the inquiry, will give a very good account of himself for this very the right hon. Gentleman should listen to the inquiry. simple reason: that in judging this important bid, he sought independent advice from independent regulators Edward Miliband: Lord Justice Leveson is responsible at every stage, although he did not need to, and he took for a lot of things, but he is not responsible for the that independent advice at every stage, although he did integrity of the Prime Minister’s Government. In case not need to. The way he has dealt with this issue is in he has forgotten, that is his responsibility as the Prime stark contrast to the Governments of whom the right Minister. hon. Gentleman was a member. It beggars belief that the Prime Minister can defend the Culture Secretary, because he was not judging this Edward Miliband: I say this to the Prime Minister: bid—he was helping the bid by News Corporation. Two while his Culture Secretary remains in place, and while days before the statement to the House on 25 January, he refuses to come clean on his and the Chancellor’s the Culture Secretary’s office was not only colluding meetings with Rupert Murdoch, the shadow of sleaze with News Corp to provide it with information in will hang over this Government. It is a pattern with this advance, it was hatching a plan to ensure that it would be Prime Minister—Andy Coulson, Rebekah Brooks and “game over for the opposition” now the Culture Secretary. When is he going to realise that it is time to stop putting his cronies before the to the bid. Does the Prime Minister really believe that is interests of the country? how a judge and his advisers are supposed to act? The Prime Minister: I have to say to the right hon. The Prime Minister: The Leader of the Opposition Gentleman that he called for an independent judicial clearly does not think that what Lord Leveson said this inquiry. That is the inquiry I have set up. He agreed the morning matters. Let me remind him of what he said terms of reference. Now he is flip-flopping all over the yesterday about the Leveson inquiry. He said: place. The fact is that the problem of closeness between “I think”— politicians and media proprietors had been going on for years and it is this Government who are going to sort it this is the Leader of the Opposition speaking— out. Whether it is the proper regulation of the press, “that it’s right that the Leveson Inquiry takes its course”. whether it is cleaning up our financial system, whether He went on to say that it is dealing with our debts: I don’t duck my responsibilities. “the most important thing is that the Leveson Inquiry gets to the What a pity he cannot live up to his. bottom of what happened, of what Labour did, of what the Conservatives did and we reach a judgment about that.” Hon. Members: More! 947 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 948

Mr Speaker: I call Karl McCartney. seeing the expansion and growth plans there, and it is good to hear what is happening in my hon. Friend’s Hon. Members: More! constituency.

Mr Speaker: Order. I call Mr Karl McCartney. Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): Does the Prime Minister agree with his Chancellor, who Q2. [105080] Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): Is my said in 2008 that right hon. Friend aware of recent very good news in the “once…you’ve got a downturn you cannot possibly slash public manufacturing and engineering sectors in Lincoln? expenditure”? Hoval has seen an increase in turnover of over 20% to Will the Prime Minister stick to his complacent plan of around £17.5 million; Italian firm Brifrangi has cutting too far and too fast, which has delivered a confirmed an investment of circa £50 million in a new double-dip recession? tooling press, one of the largest in the world; and Siemens is involved in the first new engineering school The Prime Minister: Well read. [Interruption.] The in our country for 20 years. Will my right hon. Friend point is that we inherited from the Labour party a accept my personal invitation to visit Lincoln to see for budget deficit of 11%. The budget deficit we inherited himself the excellent progress our city is enjoying under was bigger than Greece’s, bigger than Spain’s, bigger his Conservative-led Government? than Portugal’s. If you do not deal with your debts and The Prime Minister: I am very grateful for my hon. your deficit, you will never keep interest rates low, and it Friend’s invitation and will try to take it up. As I said is low interest rates that offer us the best prospects of earlier, although there is very disappointing news today getting out of this difficult economic situation we are in. about what is happening in our economy, underneath that there is a rebalancing that needs to take place, and Q4. [105082] Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): At least is taking place, in terms of manufacturing investment half a million children— and exports, and in terms of the Government getting behind that, with more investment in apprenticeships Hon. Members: Reading! and more investments in technical hubs at our universities, like the one at the university of Lincoln, and by cutting Mr Speaker: Order. Let us hear from Mr Lefroy. business taxes so that we get Britain working and making things again. Jeremy Lefroy: At least half a million children died from malaria last year. On world malaria day, may I Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): On Monday, thank the Prime Minister for his personal commitment the Prime Minister said that he was going on an economic to combating this disease? Will he join me in recognising rescue mission. Is it not fair to say that that mission has the international leadership that British scientists, aid failed spectacularly in the light of the figures released workers and volunteers, including Rotarians in Penkridge today? in Stafford in my constituency, show in combating malaria? The Prime Minister: The point I would make to the hon. Lady is that the recession we suffered—a 7% The Prime Minister: I am grateful for the opportunity contraction of our gross domestic product—was much to join my hon. Friend in wishing the people of Penkridge bigger even than what happened in America. It is worth well. He did rather better in convincing the people of remembering that the biggest bank bail-out anywhere Penkridge to vote for him than I did in 1997. He is in the world was not in America; it was here in Britain. absolutely right to raise the issue of malaria on world Getting out of the recession, the financial crisis and the malaria day. Some 15,000 children die every week from debt crisis is difficult, painstaking work, but this what is a preventable illness. That is why I am proud Government are committed to doing just that. that Britain is leading on this issue, putting money into the aid budget and malarial bed nets, and making all Q3. [105081] Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Last the scientific advances that he referred to. This is a vital week, I met the chief executive of the fourth largest agenda, and even in difficult economic times, we are manufacturing group in the UK, Unison Engineering, right to pursue it. which has a substantial factory in Burnley. He has been instructed by his US board to increase the turnover of Q5. [105083] Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): his UK operations so as to take advantage of the Does this out-of-touch Prime Minister still believe that Government’s industrial strategy. He is concerned the British economy is about the lack of skills. [Interruption.] Can my right “out of the danger zone”?—[Official Report, 15 December 2010; hon. Friend assure me that the Government investment Vol. 520, c. 901.] in apprenticeships and university technical colleges will increase over the coming years? The Prime Minister: One of the biggest problems we faced on taking office was the danger that financial The Prime Minister: What is interesting is that if any markets would take the same view of Britain that they Member of Parliament wants to talk about manufacturing took of Greece, Spain and Portugal, where interest rates success or business success in their constituency, they were rising. That Britain has such low interest rates are shouted down by the Opposition, because all they demonstrates that we have credibility. Difficult decisions want to hear is bad news and to talk our economy are needed to get on top of the debt and deficit, and to down. We are investing in skills and putting more deal with public spending, but they are the right decisions, money into the apprenticeship schemes and the university not least because, as the shadow Chancellor once said, technical colleges. I was at Airbus in Filton this week low interest rates are the mark of economic credibility. 949 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 950

Q14. [105092] Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): step in correcting that mistake were the Government to The head teachers of Calder and Todmorden high scrap the 3p increase in August, in order to help schools in Calder Valley welcome the Government’s motorists, haulage companies and hard-pressed educational reforms. [HON.MEMBERS: “Reading!”] They families in the UK? are two schools that never qualified for the Building Schools for the Future programme under the previous The Prime Minister: The Government have actually Government because they attained far too highly. [HON. used about £4 billion of Budget money to keep petrol MEMBERS: “Reading!”] Will the Prime Minister tell the prices down. They are about 6p lower than they would pupils of those schools when they can expect an be under Labour’s plans. Let me update the hon. Gentleman announcement on the priority school buildings project and the House on the issue of the fuel strike. It now to which they both applied? looks as if there will be longer before a strike could take place. I am determined that we use that time to ensure The Prime Minister: We are investing more in school that every piece of resilience is in place. The plans we building than Labour did in its first two Parliaments inherited would have allowed the military to provide after 1997. The figure is along the lines of £17 billion perhaps 10% of our fuel needs. We have now managed during the spending review period. So there are to lift that to about 60% or 70%. We are in a much opportunities for new classrooms and buildings, and I better place now because of the proper emergency am sure that the Secretary of State for Education, who planning that this Government have done, as opposed is listening carefully to my hon. Friend, will be in touch to the Labour party, which just crosses its fingers and with him about their prospects. hopes for the best from the trade unions.

Q6. [105084] Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Did the Prime Minister agree with the hon. Member for Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): Next Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) when she said Wednesday my mother Maud will celebrate her 100th that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor— birthday. Living, as she does, five minutes from the [Interruption.] Olympic stadium, she has agreed to be Usain Bolt’s pacemaker, in order to give the other athletes a chance. Mr Speaker: Order. Let us hear the question. Will my right hon. Friend now call on the indomitable spirit of former Land Army girls such as my mother and encourage our Olympic athletes to go for gold? Mr McKenzie: Did the Prime Minister agree with the hon. Lady when she called him and the Chancellor “posh boys” showing no compassion or understanding The Prime Minister: I will certainly do that. I have for the lives of others? Is that not further evidence that written to Maud to congratulate her on this fantastic they are out of touch and an explanation for this milestone, and I am sure that as she speeds past Usain double-dip recession? Bolt, she will turn round and reflect that the only way is Essex. The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) about Mr Speaker: I am delighted that the Prime Minister many, many things. has written to her. That makes two of us.

Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Q8. [105086] Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): Over the past two years, UK exports have grown by The Prime Minister has spent plenty of time cosying 23%, and growth to the BRIC countries has been even up to News Corporation in return for political support, faster. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating so—[Interruption.] I can wait. He is therefore well the 151 winners of the Queen’s award for enterprise this qualified to answer this answer: when Alex Salmond week on their success in international trade, particularly agreed to act as a lobbyist for News Corp, was he GSPK Circuits in Knaresborough and Boroughbridge acting in self-interest or in the interests of Scotland? in my constituency?

The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend The Prime Minister: First, I think Alex Salmond can in congratulating that business on its export performance. answer for himself. Secondly, this is another issue for When we look at some of the fastest-growing markets the Leveson inquiry—properly set up, properly in the world—whether India, China or some of the established—which is going to interview all the politicians, south-east Asian markets I visited a few days ago—we including all sorts of people who cosied up to News see that our export performance in some of those International over the years. I think on all sides of the markets, compared with 2009, is up by as much as 60%. House there is a bit of a need to say, hand on heart, that As well as those markets, however, we also have to we all did too much cosying up to Rupert Murdoch—I remember our old friends, as it were, and the fact that think we would agree. On that basis, I am sure that Lord we still export more to the Republic of Ireland than to Leveson will make some important recommendations. Brazil, Russia, India and China combined. So we need to expand our existing markets, but it is far harder work Q9. [105087] Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): Has the to get into the fast-growing markets of the world. Prime Minister seen the research published today by the TaxPayers Alliance, which shows that there are Q7. [105085] David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): 3,097 town hall employees earning more than £100,000 Recently, the Prime Minister conceded that the and 52 earning more than £250,000? My constituents Government had made an “important mistake” in the in Burton cannot understand such exorbitant salaries. handling of the fuel crisis. Would it not be a positive What can we do about it? 951 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 952

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right heard recently that some, but not all, of our wealthy to raise this issue. The important thing that we have citizens want to donate money to charity only if they done is to make completely transparent the pay in our can continue to reduce their tax bill. Does the Prime town halls and local government. Sadly, I believe there Minister think that their motives are honourable, kind is still one local council—a Labour-controlled council and selfless? in Nottinghamshire—that is not making that information available. Every council should be transparent about The Prime Minister: We should support people who how it spends council tax payers’ money. give money to charity, which is why the Government have expanded gift aid very generously and made available Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): a change to help people with inheritance tax if they Last year the Prime Minister said that those warning leave bequests to charity. As the hon. Gentleman knows, him that cutting too far and too fast would risk a the Budget set out a number of limits to reliefs, and we double-dip recession should apologise. Now that he has specifically identified the potential problem for charities. delivered a double-dip recession, should he not apologise? My right hon. Friend the Chancellor will consult very widely on the issue of how we can make sure that we The Prime Minister: The point I would make to the encourage philanthropic giving and charities, and what hon. Lady is this: we faced a very difficult situation, charities do in our country. with an 11% budget deficit. If we had listened to the plans of the Opposition, and spent more, borrowed more and increased our debt, that would have only Q12. [105090] Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) made the debt crisis worse. How can the answer to a (Lab): The Prime Minister’s dismissive response to the debt crisis be more borrowing? That is the question the fact that the UK is now back in recession suggests that Opposition can never answer. his mind is on other things. Should he not just sack his Culture Secretary and concentrate properly on the job of sorting out the British economy? Q10. [105088] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): After weeks of ducking and diving, Ken Livingstone has given a partial publication of his tax affairs. Sadly, The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Lady would he refuses to publish the tax affairs of Silveta, the recognise that there is absolutely nothing dismissive company he set up to avoid paying his fair share of tax. about either my reply on the economy or, indeed, what I Does my right hon. Friend agree that Ken Livingstone think we need to do. We are in a difficult economic has ceased to be the old pretender and has now become situation in Britain, just as we see recessions in Denmark, the Artful Dodger? in Holland, in Italy and in Spain. That is what is happening across the continent with which we trade. It The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend speaks is absolutely essential that we take every step that we for all of London when he makes that point. Ken can to help our economy out of recession: investing in Livingstone owes the people of London some proper apprenticeships; setting up enterprise zones; cutting transparency about this company and about his tax bill. business taxes; and prioritising investment in our There are still several days to go before this key election. infrastructure. We are doing all those things, and we will He should make that information available. I have to do more to help get our economy out of the mess in say that I had something of a shock this week, because I which the last Government left it. have hardly ever agreed with anything Alan Sugar has ever said, but in saying that Londoners should not back Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Far from Ken, he was spot on. being dismissive, the Prime Minister acknowledged that the figures were disappointing. Does he agree that if we Q11. [105089] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) are getting out of a debt crisis we should not spend (Lab): Now that the Prime Minister has admitted that more money? There is no international organisation he created the economic mess that the country is in, suggesting that this country change course and spend may I be helpful to him and suggest that he drop his more money to do so. ridiculous proposals for regional pay cuts and accelerate the capital programme for schools in Coventry and the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely west midlands? right. It is not just that there is no international body making that case—there is no business organisation The Prime Minister: As I said earlier, we are spending making that case. Indeed, the Institute of Directors and more on capital on schools in this Parliament than the CBI have both said today that, while these figures either of the first two Labour Parliaments. I am very are disappointing, we must not give up the low interest happy for Education Ministers to look specifically at rates and the credible fiscal policy that we have, as that the case in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency to see would land our economy in the problems that the what can be done. I also hope that he will join me and Opposition left it in. invite people in Coventry on 3 May to vote yes for a mayor for Coventry. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): It is a sorry state of affairs when in just two years the economy is in Q13. [105091] Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Every year, millions of British people donate money to charities. deep recession and now the Government are deep in They do so for the simple reason that they want to help sleaze. Same old Tories. the cause or help others who are worse off then they are. I would describe those actions by members of the The Prime Minister: I think Russell Brand got it public as honourable, kind and selfless. We have all about right yesterday. 953 Oral Answers25 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 954

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I do not think that I will. Mr Speaker. It relates to the Prime Minister. Chris Bryant: The Prime Minister will regret it. Mr Speaker: It may relate to the Prime Minister but, as far as I am concerned, unless I am advised otherwise, Mr Speaker: I note what the hon. Gentleman has said points of order come after statements, and the statement— from a sedentary position. We will now hear the statement from the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media Chris Bryant: He will regret that. and Sport. I call Mr Secretary Hunt. 955 25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 956

Leveson Inquiry evidence to Lord Justice Leveson. However, I would like to resolve this issue as soon as possible, which is why I have written to Lord Justice Leveson asking if my 12.34 pm appearance can be brought forward. I am totally confident The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media that when I present my evidence, the public will see that and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): With permission, Mr Speaker, I conducted this process with scrupulous fairness I would like to make a statement following yesterday’s throughout. developments at the Leveson inquiry. Although I intend to respond fully to allegations about my conduct and 12.38 pm that of my Department when I present my evidence to Lord Justice Leveson, I believe that it is important to Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): update the House on actions that have been taken as a I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. Everyone result of evidence released yesterday. recognises that the £8 billion News Corp bid for BSkyB was of huge commercial importance and that it had We are 273 days into a process whose first stage will profound implications for newspapers and for all of last until October. This is not the time to jump on a broadcasting, including the BBC. The Business Secretary political bandwagon—[Interruption.] What the public had been stripped of his responsibility for deciding on want to hear are not my views or those of the right hon. the bid because he had already made up his mind Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, but the views against it, but the Culture Secretary too had made up of Lord Justice Leveson when he has considered all the his mind, in favour of the bid, so how could he have evidence. I do, however, think that it is right to set thought it proper to take on that decision? Of course he the record right on a number of issues, in the light of could take advice, but the decision as to whether he the evidence heard yesterday at the inquiry. Specifically, should do it, and could do it fairly, was a matter for him on the merger of News Corp with BSkyB, I would like and him alone. to remind the House of the process that I followed. Throughout, I have followed due process, seeking the The Secretary of State took on the responsibility, and advice of independent regulators—something I did not assured the House that he would be acting in a quasi-judicial have to do—and after careful consideration, acting on role, like a judge, and that he would be transparent, their advice. I have published all advice that I have impartial and fair. However, is it not the case that James received from Ofcom and the Office of Fair Trading, Murdoch was receiving information in advance about together with correspondence between myself and News what the Secretary of State was going to do and what he Corporation, including details of all meetings that I was going to say—information that was given to only have held in relation to this process. one side, which had not been given to those who were As part of this process, my officials and I have opposed to the bid, and before it was given to this House. engaged with News Corporation and its representatives, Does the right hon. Gentleman think it acceptable as well as other interested parties—both supporters and that Murdoch knew not only about what he was going opponents of the merger. Transcripts of conversations to do and say, but, crucially, what the regulator, Ofcom, and texts published yesterday between my special adviser, had said to the Secretary of State on 10 January 2011 Adam Smith, and a News Corporation representative and what the bid’s opponents had said to the Secretary have been alleged to indicate that there was a back of State on 20 and 31 March 2011. Is he really going to channel through which News Corporation was able to suggest to this House that James Murdoch’s adviser, influence my decisions. That is categorically not the Fred Michel, knowing all this was just a coincidence? case—[Interruption.] Can the Secretary of State explain how Fred Michel, in a series of e-mails beginning on 23 January, was in a Mr Speaker: Order. The House must calm down a position to tell Murdoch the full detail of a statement bit. The statement must be heard. There will be a full that the Secretary of State was not going to give to this opportunity for questioning of the Secretary of State, House until two days later? Whatever interpretation is as he would expect. Whether he expects it or not, that is put on e-mails, there can be no doubt that Michel’s what will happen. That is right and proper, but it is also e-mail accurately and in detail described meetings that right and proper that the statement should be heard the Secretary of State had had, and accurately foretold with courtesy. what the Secretary of State was going to do. Either Michel was mystic Meg or he had been told. Mr Hunt: However, the volume and tone of those When it comes to the transparency that the Secretary communications were clearly not appropriate in a quasi- of State promised, there appears to have been a great deal judicial process, and today Adam Smith has resigned as of transparency for Murdoch, but precious little for my special adviser. Although he accepts that he overstepped opponents of the bid or for this House. If, as suggested the mark on this occasion, I want to set on record that I on the right hon. Gentleman’s behalf in the media, he believe that he did so unintentionally and did not believe was negotiating with Murdoch, why did he not tell the that he was doing anything more than giving advice on opponents of the bid and why did he not tell the House? process. I believe him to be someone of integrity and Will he tell us now whether he believed himself to have decency, and it is a matter of huge regret to me that this been negotiating? Is that what was going on? has happened. On 3 March, the Secretary of State told this House I only saw the transcripts of these communications that he had published details of all the exchanges between yesterday. They did not influence my decisions in any his Department and News Corporation. In the light of way at all—not least because I insisted on hearing the all the information that we now know that Fred Michel advice of independent regulators at every stage of the had, does he still maintain that that is the case? His special process. I will give my full record of events when I give adviser has admitted that his activities at times went too 957 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 958 far, and he has resigned, but will the Secretary of State The first decision I made was that I was minded to confirm that under paragraph 3.3 of the ministerial refer the bid to the Competition Commission, which is code, it is the Secretary of State himself who is responsible precisely what James Murdoch did not want me to do. I for the conduct of his special adviser? said that I was minded to do it. I then had an obligation This was a controversial bid. The right hon. Gentleman to consider undertakings in lieu of a reference to the could have refused to take it on, but he did not. He Competition Commission, and I made my second decision, could have referred it to the Competition Commission, which was that I would not accept those undertakings but he did not. His role was to be impartial, but he was until I had received and considered the advice of Ofcom not. His conduct should have been quasi-judicial, but it and the OFT on whether they dealt with the plurality fell far, far short of that, and fell short of the standards concerns. That was something about which James Murdoch required by his office. The reality is that he was not was extremely angry. [Interruption.] I had a meeting judging this bid; he was backing it, so he should resign. which was minuted. The third decision that I made was to extend the Mr Hunt: I am hugely disappointed by the right and period of consultation—again, at any stage I could have learned hon. Lady’s response today.She had the opportunity accepted those undertakings—and to insist again that to rise above party politics and work towards a solution Ofcom and the OFT must have full sight of the to a problem that has bedevilled British politics for undertakings, that I would see their advice, and in many years; instead, she has chosen to jump on the practice I followed their advice after careful consideration. political bandwagon. Let me remind her that the Labour My final decision, at the very end of the process, was party spent over a decade in power and did nothing made at the time of the Milly Dowler revelations. At other than cosy up to the press barons and their families. that stage, I wrote to Ofcom and asked it whether those She speaks for a party whose Prime Minister, when in allegations should have any impact on my decision with opposition, flew half-way round the world, in Rupert respect to accepting the undertakings, because I thought Murdoch’s words, to “make love”to him “like a scorpion”. that there was a question mark over corporate governance [Interruption.] This is a party whose Prime Minister procedures which might affect any decision to accept them. was godfather to Rupert Murdoch’s daughter and whose Prime Minister’s wife organised a sleepover at Chequers. Those four decisions were contrary to what News [Interruption.] I will come on to deal with all the right Corporation wanted. The idea that I was backing the hon. and learned Lady’s points. bid is laughable. The right hon. and learned Lady talked about the e-mails Mr Speaker: Order. I appeal to the House to calm between Frederic Michel and me. In his evidence to the down. I politely but explicitly suggest to the Secretary inquiry, Frederic Michel also said—[Interruption.] I of State that in addressing these matters, he seeks to think that Opposition Members should listen to the evidence address the questions put to him and to address the that was presented yesterday. Frederic Michel said: matters for which he is responsible, which obviously “some of my emails… may incorrectly suggest to a reader that I does not include the conduct of other political parties. had contact with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, Jeremy Hunt, when in fact my contact was solely with Mr Hunt: I will happily do that, Mr Speaker, but I do Mr Hunt’s adviser”. think that Opposition Members need to show a degree [Interruption.] I accept, and my adviser accepts, that of humility when they deal with these issues— those communications overstepped the mark. However, [Interruption]—because if we are going to solve this I am telling the House today that all the evidence makes problem, it is necessary for the whole House to work it absolutely clear that none of those conversations together and not to jump on bandwagons. influenced the decisions that I made. Let me now deal with the specific points made by the Let me just say this. The right hon. and learned right hon. and learned Lady. She said that I was backing Lady’s party had 13 years in which to do something the bid—that I had made up my mind. That is not true. about this. During the last year of the last Labour Let me say this. First, when I was appointed to be Government, the Cabinet discussed the issue of press responsible for the bid, my views about the bid, some of behaviour and decided to do nothing. In contrast, she which had been made public, were explicitly reported to faces a Prime Minister and Culture Secretary who set the Cabinet Secretary, who decided that it was appropriate up the Leveson inquiry within two weeks of the Milly for me to take responsibility for it in a quasi-judicial Dowler situation, who therefore have put in place a role, but—this is the crucial point: it is very important—the process that, while fully protecting freedom of expression— right hon. and learned Lady must understand that which is the foundation of our democracy—will oversee because I had expressed some sympathy for the bid some of the most fundamental reforms of press practices when I was not responsible for it, I changed the process in a generation, and who have shown more commitment so that at every stage before I made a decision, I to transparency and openness than her Government obtained the advice of independent regulators, which I ever did. carefully considered and which I followed. I put it to the right hon. and learned Lady that if I had been backing Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Will my right the bid, I would not have sought the advice of independent hon. Friend first confirm that, whatever his advisers regulators who might well have opposed it. may have said, the only advice that he took was from I made four decisions in this process, and each of Ofcom, and that he followed it? Secondly, does he agree those decisions was contrary to what News Corporation that usually in circumstances such as these the first wanted. [Interruption.] If Opposition Members are thing the Opposition do is call for a judicial inquiry, and making the very serious allegation that I was supporting given that that is precisely what we have, is it not this bid and not acting quasi-judicially, they must at sensible to wait until it completes its work and not jump least listen to the evidence of what happened. to conclusions? 959 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 960

Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is exactly right, and given Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Does that the Leader of the Opposition has previously said my right hon. Friend agree that what these e-mails show that he thinks it is right that the Leveson inquiry should is the shocking extent to which lobbyists exaggerate, take its course—that the most important thing is that it embellish and invent the access and influence they gets to the bottom of what happened, of what Labour actually have? did, of what the Conservatives did, and we reach a judgment about that—it is curious that he is now trying Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There to pre-empt its conclusions. are countless examples in those e-mails of things that simply did not happen—of meetings that were alleged Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Both the Culture to have taken place not just with me, but with members Secretary and the Prime Minister have repeated again of my Department, but that simply did not happen. It is today that they always followed Ofcom advice. They did very important that we hear all the evidence so that we not. Ofcom thought this bid should be referred to the can get to the bottom of what is truth and what is Competition Commission; so did the Business Secretary, fiction. so did the Labour Government. Why did the Culture Secretary change that policy? Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Every councillor in the land knows what “quasi-judicial” means. They know Mr Hunt: I know that the right hon. Gentleman was that it means that if they are on the planning committee, disappointed yesterday, as he was looking for a smoking they cannot tip the wink to anybody on one side or the gun that showed that the process had not been properly other, and that they have to be cleaner than clean, pursued. The very first decision I took was to say I was whiter than white. The Secretary of State and the Prime minded to refer this bid. That is the proper process. If a Minister have both asserted for the last two years that Minister wants to refer a bid to the Competition they had no inappropriate conversations with that woman, Commission, the proper process is to tell the interested Rebekah Brooks, and that every single one of their party that they are minded to do so, and it then has the meetings has been published. May I just give this one opportunity to come back with undertakings, which the final chance to the Prime Minister to come clean on all Minister has a duty to consider. That is the process set the meetings, because I think he might find things are up by the right hon. Gentleman’s Government in the going to get very difficult for him later on today? Enterprise Act 2002, and that is what I was doing. Mr Hunt: Let me say this: the Prime Minister had no Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): The Prime Minister inappropriate conversations, because he was not responsible reminded us earlier today that for far too long Conservative for this decision. and Labour politicians and their advisers have been cosying up to the media, and in particular to the Murdoch Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): We have heard empire. In light of that and of the Secretary of State’s what the Culture Secretary has to say about his own own experiences, does he agree that it is inappropriate conduct, and I believe him. As for what on earth his for a politician to make decisions on media ownership office was up to, I hope Lord Justice Leveson gets to the when, however hard they seek to be impartial, politicians bottom of that. Does the Secretary of State still think will be perceived to be under pressure to meet the that Lord Leveson should be reporting to the Culture wishes of the media barons? Should not these decisions Secretary, or should he now report directly to the Prime be made openly and independently by the appropriate Minister instead? regulator? Mr Hunt: With respect, Lord Justice Leveson is reporting Mr Hunt: My right hon. Friend makes a powerful to me and the Home Secretary on the express wishes of point. He knows that I have said that I think this is an the Prime Minister. The most important point is that issue that needs to be considered, because the perception what he reports is totally independent, and it is. of impartiality is as important as the impartiality itself. We wait with interest to hear what Lord Justice Leveson Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): says. Some 6,800 people are employed by BSkyB in Scotland. Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): Is the They will have been watching the events of the past Secretary of State seriously trying to convince the nation 24 hours with increasing concern and alarm. What that these incriminating e-mails and texts are all the message has the Secretary of State got for them today? work of a single rogue adviser? Mr Hunt: We want to have a thriving media industry, Mr Hunt: I think that the hon. Gentleman needs to and I believe that the great strength of our media be very careful about declaring someone guilty before industry in this country is that we have a strong BBC there has been due process. He described—[Interruption.] and strong competition to the BBC. Those employees He accepts—[Interruption.] play a good part in that, and we want to see all companies in this sector thrive. Mr Speaker: Order. The question has been asked. The answer must be heard. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): We have heard today that there are, indeed, many cases in political Mr Hunt: The hon. Gentleman used the word history of lobbyists with more of Walter Mitty than the “incriminating.” I said he overstepped the mark, and I truth to their claims. Perhaps the Secretary of State can think it is very important in situations such as this that help the House today. Fred Michel claimed he had due process is followed. The hon. Gentleman wanted an 54 separate conversations with the Secretary of State; inquiry. He has got an inquiry. Let us listen to the will my right hon. Friend confirm how many conversations results of that inquiry. he did have? 961 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 962

Mr Hunt: The answer is zero. Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Is the Secretary of State saying that Lord Leveson should Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): The Culture report to him, about him? Secretary’s adviser has now lost his job. Does that not prove the theory that when posh boys are in trouble, Mr Hunt: I want Lord Leveson to report absolutely they sack the servants? Why doesn’t the Secretary of everything he thinks, without fear or favour, including State do the decent thing: tell dodgy Dave and Gideon, his opinion on the integrity of my conduct. and get out and resign? Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): May I thank the Mr Hunt: Adam Smith’s resignation is a matter of Culture Secretary, a man I know to be of the utmost huge regret to me. I believe him to be a person of integrity and honesty, for his statement? The previous integrity and decency, but my responsibility to this Government knew of phone hacking and illegal media House is to the integrity of this process—the objectivity practices for years but failed to take any action. May I and impartiality with which this process was conducted— ask the Culture Secretary to contrast his action with and I believe I have presented evidence to the House their inaction? that demonstrates that I behaved in a judiciously impartial way throughout. Mr Hunt: In 13 years, there were two Information Commissioner reports, one Select Committee report Several hon. Members rose— and two people were sent to prison, yet the Labour party did absolutely nothing. That is why it is totally inappropriate for Labour to be suggesting that this is Mr Speaker: Order. Whatever strong views Members somehow a Government problem. It is an issue that hold on this subject—as on many others—let me just affects the whole political process, which is why we need remind them of the importance, as “Erskine May” has to be working together to sort it out. exhorted us, of moderation in the use of language in this House. Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): The Secretary of State will appreciate that one of the main Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): Did the concerns about the fallout from the phone hacking Secretary of State write on his website that he was a affair is how widely News International’s tentacles reached cheerleader for the Murdochs? into the police and into government. BSkyB launched its bid in June 2010 and Andy Coulson resigned in Mr Hunt: No, I did not. What I had on my website January 2011, so, irrespective of when the Secretary of was an article from Broadcast magazine in which it State took responsibility for the bid, will he tell the wrote that, and I hope the evidence I have been able to House whether Mr Coulson had any communications present this morning shows that that was not the case. with him or with DCMS advisers, in any shape or form, about News Corp’s interest in BSkyB while Mr Coulson was still the Prime Minister’s official spokesman? Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab): When the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation Mr Hunt: I had no communication or consultation and Skills was handling this bid, why did the Culture with Mr Coulson about this bid when I was responsible Secretary offer to help Murdoch to influence the process? for it.

Mr Hunt: Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman that Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I, too, anyone who is responsible for any sector, be it the have seen my right hon. Friend serve this House with aerospace sector, the chemicals sector or the automobile great integrity.Could he clarify the role that the independent sector, has to talk to all the people involved in that regulators, the Office of Fair Trading and Ofcom, played industry. It is my job to talk to the BBC, to ITV, to Sky in this process? and to newspaper proprietors, because I want that industry to be successful. This bid did have some Mr Hunt: My reason for involving the OFT and implications for media policy, so it was perfectly proper Ofcom in this process to a much greater extent than I for me to be apprised of those. What was not right was was required to do under the Enterprise Act 2002 was for me to be involved in the decision-making process, precisely that I wanted to address the concerns that and I was not while it was the responsibility of the Members of this House and the public might have Business Secretary. about my prejudging this issue. At every stage—I took four major decisions, each of which was not the decision Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Does the that News Corp wanted—and on every ruling that I Secretary of State recognise the conversations attributed made, I carefully considered that independent advice, to him by Fred Michel? and after considering it, I followed it.

Mr Hunt: I do not. Throughout the bid process, when Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): The Culture I got responsibility for it, the contact that I had with Secretary did not answer the question put by my hon. Fred Michel was only at official meetings that were Friend the Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson). minuted with other people present. The fact is that Will he be very precise and tell the House now, because there is a whole pile of e-mails—54 in total—in which this is important evidence, whether he knew of the he talks about having contact with me, but that simply exchanges between his special adviser and Mr Michel? did not happen. Did he know of the contents of those exchanges? 963 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 964

Mr Hunt: That information—it is an important this to the House. When complex undertakings are question—was set out in a statement made by Adam involved in a huge merger, the process is very complex Smith when he resigned. and there are, inevitably, a range of contacts. As I say, I have tried to be as transparent as possible in all those Hon. Members: Answer! contacts. I think that, in this particular case, the contacts overstepped the mark, which is why, regrettably, Adam Mr Speaker: Order. Let us calm down. Let us hear Smith has decided to resign. But let me point out to the the answer. hon. Gentleman that Adam Smith, in his statement, said: Mr Hunt: I knew about his contact—that was authorised. “While it was part of my role to keep News Corporation He was authorised to be the point of contact between informed throughout the BSkyB bid process, the content and my Department and News Corporation. What I did not extent of my contact was done without authorisation from the know was the communications themselves—the first Secretary of State.” time I saw them was yesterday. Nor did I know the volume of those communications or their tone Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): The Secretary of State is a fellow Surrey MP whom I have grown to Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Will the respect as a model professional. He knew that the Secretary of State explain how referring the BSkyB deal BSkyB deal was controversial when the issue was moved to the Competition Commission makes him a cheerleader to his Department. Will he explain what measures he for the Murdoch empire? took to ensure that the bid process was fair, transparent and open? Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend makes the most important point in this whole process. If one looks at the evidence Mr Hunt: I have talked at length about the role of of the decisions that I actually made, one finds that it is independent regulators, but let me just make the following clear that at every stage I actually made the decision response to my hon. Friend: one of the points about that News Corporation did not want. That includes the getting that independent advice from Ofcom and the final decision, which was to ask whether I should take OFT was that I published what they advised me to do account of the Milly Dowler revelations, which was before I made my decision, so that when I announced what precipitated the collapse of the entire bid. my decision the whole country could see whether I had acted in accordance with independent advice, which I Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Is it not the did at every stage. That is why this House and the case that the Secretary of State did not need to speak to country can be reassured that this extremely difficult Murdoch because his right-hand man was feeding Murdoch bid was conducted with scrupulous impartiality. all the information he needed? Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Mr Hunt: Those conversations—this is why I am The Secretary of State referred in his statement to the telling the House this today—were inappropriate, but “volume and tone” of the communications of his adviser they did not affect my decision. The evidence for that is not being appropriate. Does the Secretary of State in the decisions that I actually took, which were four accept that either he followed due process or he did not? decisions that James Murdoch did not want. If he followed due process, he should be here today fighting in defence of his innocence. If he is guilty, or if Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): Will he feels that he did not follow due process, there should my right hon. Friend tell the House what measures he be due humility. Why is he doing neither? put in place in this process, over and above what was necessary, to ensure that the process was fair, transparent Mr Hunt: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, due and open? process in this situation means that I should take my decision objectively and impartially, setting aside my Mr Hunt: Absolutely. The most important thing was own prejudices. That is exactly what I did. that when James Murdoch offered undertakings in lieu of a referral to the Competition Commission, which it Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Will the Secretary of is his right to do so and my duty to consider, instead of State assure people in my constituency and throughout accepting those undertakings, which I was legally completely the country that at all times in this process he acted with entitled to do, I said that I would not do so until I had impartiality and integrity? been given proper advice by Ofcom and the OFT as to whether it would be appropriate to do so. When I got Mr Hunt: I absolutely did and I am grateful to my that advice, I considered it carefully and I followed it. hon. Friend for saying that, but we are very keen in all That is not required by the law, but I chose to do that these processes to learn the lesson that the appearance because of my commitment to the integrity of the process. of impartiality is also very important. That is why today the Prime Minister has asked the Cabinet Secretary Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): Why was to write to all Departments to clarify the rigorous the special adviser the nominated person in the Department? procedures that Departments should have in place for If this was so important, as the Secretary of State is handling all cases of a quasi-judicial nature and said saying, why was his special adviser the nominated person? that it is vital that in dealing with these cases all contacts by Ministers, officials and special advisers are carefully Mr Hunt: His role was agreed by the permanent controlled and properly recorded so that the independence, secretary, but he was not the only person; we had contacts integrity and impartiality of the process are upheld on all sorts of levels—[Interruption.] Let me explain and, just as important, seen to be upheld. 965 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 966

Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): In the past 40 minutes Mr Hunt: If I used Adam Smith as my invisible hand, I have watched the Prime Minister give the Secretary of why did I take four decisions that went completely State answers to the questions that he is being asked. against what News Corporation wanted? This was a Does the Secretary of State agree with the Prime Minister quasi-judicial process, which I took enormous trouble that the next great scandal in British politics is lobbying? to ensure was performed objectively and fairly. I have explained to the hon. Gentleman and to the House Mr Hunt: I think that forewarned is forearmed. In many times the steps that I took to do that. this process, we have seen the role of one corporate affairs adviser, and that is why this Government are Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): conducting a review at the moment to consider the role Does the Secretary of State agree that Fred Michel’s of lobbyists and to ensure that we have proper transparency view that the Business Secretary “saw no problem with in the entire process. the bid” demonstrates the fantasy world that that man Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Will the appears to be living in? Secretary of State comment on the allegation that he went to see “Swan Lake” five days after reportedly Mr Hunt: The evidence would certainly suggest that speaking to Fred Michel? that was also an exaggeration. That is why we must hear all the evidence submitted to the Leveson inquiry from Mr Hunt: Just one of the slightly curious e-mails that all sides and allow Lord Justice Leveson, who is truly Fred Michel sent suggested that he had called me just independent in this process and has no political bandwagon before I went to see “Swan Lake”; I actually went to see to jump on, to come to his considered conclusions. it five days later. That is why I think it is very important that we hear all the evidence before making a judgment Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): In my experience, on the basis of these e-mails. Secretaries of State speak more to their political advisers Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ than they do to their Ministers or, indeed, to members Co-op): The Secretary of State said yesterday and has of their own families. The House is being invited to repeated in his statement today that he has written to believe either that the relationship between the Secretary Lord Justice Leveson asking to accelerate when he gives of State and Adam Smith was so dysfunctional that the his evidence. Given that others were implicated in yesterday’s Secretary of State was unaware of the extent and nature revelations, including Alex Salmond in Scotland, is it of the communication between Adam Smith and News not now incumbent on them to do likewise so that they Corp or that it was a good relationship, in which case can give evidence on oath to clear up these issues? the Secretary of State must, as the code of conduct states, take full responsibility for the conduct of his Mr Hunt: There are questions for politicians of all political adviser. parties to answer in this process. Obviously, we have an independent judicial review and it is for Lord Justice Mr Hunt: I point the hon. Gentleman to what Adam Leveson to decide the timings, but it is very important Smith said this morning. He said that that all parties engage constructively in this process, “the content and extent of my contact was done without authorisation because—and these are the words of the right hon. and from the Secretary of State.” learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) on “The Andrew Marr Show”—this is an opportunity to solve a problem that has bedevilled Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): The Secretary politics for a very long time. That is why constructive of State’s integrity is highlighted by the meticulous way engagement with this process, not jumping on bandwagons, he went through the process, outlined at the time and is the way forward. now, taking independent advice. As we have heard today, that, together with the gap between some of the David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Will my right evidence that we have heard over the past 24 hours and hon. Friend confirm to the House that the process he reality, surely highlights why we should do as the Leader describes was authorised and approved not just by the of the Opposition said yesterday and wait for the inquiry Cabinet Secretary but by the permanent secretary at the to finish and listen to what Lord Leveson has to say. DCMS? Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is Mr Hunt: I can confirm that the permanent secretary a huge opportunity to get things right. We have heard was closely involved in this very important decision at evidence that clearly has some flaws in it, and anyone every stage of the process. In particular, he gave me looking at it sensibly and objectively would say that we strong advice about how to ensure that the process was need to hear all the evidence and not jump to conclusions. handled objectively and fairly and was seen to be handled objectively and fairly. Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Will Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May I remind the Secretary of State publish all communications between the Secretary of State that on 20 January 2011 that I, as his office and that of Alex Salmond in relation to the a former Minister with responsibility for competition takeover bid? policy, advised him in this House to hand over the decision to somebody else because of his own previous Mr Hunt: Yes, I am happy to identify all communications role with BSkyB and the Murdochs? Are not the facts with Alex Salmond’s office, if we have not already that he did not do that then and that he used Adam published them. I believe that we published all Smith as his invisible hand two monumental errors of communications relating to this bid, but I will look into judgment? that. 967 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 968

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I thank the Mr Hunt: I did not know the volume and content of Secretary of State for coming to the House and for the those text messages until yesterday. I have said that. My manner in which he is answering questions. The only former special adviser has said that he had those thing that I think affects Parliament is the allegation by communications without authorisation from me, but the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and they are now published and that is why we have taken Peckham (Ms Harman) that a statement to Parliament the action we have. was leaked in advance. Will the Secretary of State clear that up and say that it is absolutely untrue? Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I do not know Mr Michel, but I do know that the Secretary Mr Hunt: There are allegations in an e-mail that that of State is a man of integrity and honesty. Will he make did not happen, and I am unable to say to the House it crystal clear whether he recognises any of the today what the truth or otherwise was of the communiqué conversations that have been attributed to him in of the account of a conversation made by Fred Michel, Mr Michel’s e-mails? which we know in other instances contained a number of exaggerations. But that is exactly why we have Lord Mr Hunt: None whatsoever, and indeed Mr Michel Justice Leveson looking into the whole matter. He is has acknowledged that in the 54 e-mails in which he independent—a High Court judge—and will get to the refers to conversations with me, he in fact did not have bottom of it. any conversations at all.

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Secretary Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): During this process, of State has said that he did not know the content of why did the Secretary of State not manage his special the communications between his special adviser and adviser properly, to ensure his office acted with integrity? BSkyB, but he did know that they were happening and he assured the House that he would publish all the Mr Hunt: It is a matter of great regret to me that what communications between his Department and BSkyB. happened happened, but if I may say so, I think the Why were those communications, which he did know Labour party also has some lessons to learn about of—even though he says he did not know their content—not managing special advisers when it was in office. included? After the meeting on 23 December at which we now know the Prime Minister discussed the bid, did Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): the Prime Minister act in a transparent manner by “Sentence first—verdict afterwards”may well be a principle communicating on 23 December or thereafter what he that is sufficient in Alice in Wonderland, but it is not the had said to the Department either in person to the principle of English law, it is not the principle of public Secretary of State or through his officials or advisers? life and it is certainly not a principle that ought to be observed in this House. Does my right hon. Friend Mr Hunt: The Prime Minister did not communicate share my disappointment that the opportunism that we with me any conversations he had had because he was have heard from the right hon. and learned Member not responsible for this bid. I was solely responsible for for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) today the bid. I did not know the content of the communications demonstrates contempt for due process—the precise until yesterday when I saw them, nor did I know their form of contempt of which he is himself accused? volume. I knew that Adam Smith was authorised to be one of a number of contact points within my Department, Mr Hunt: My hon. and learned Friend makes an but having seen those communications it is clear that excellent point. Let me remind him of what Lord Justice the volume and content was inappropriate. What is Leveson said this morning. He said, “I do not seek to significant for this bid is that they did not in any way at constrain Parliament, but it seems to me that the better all affect my decisions. The evidence for that is very course is to allow this inquiry to proceed.” simple: the decisions I took were not the decisions that News Corporation wanted. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): It seems strange that the Secretary of State brings a special adviser into the Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): The Secretary centre of Government on a very commercially difficult of State is a man of honour and substance. I have just contract or situation, and does not know what he is learnt that Rupert Murdoch has just told the Leveson doing. But may I ask the Secretary of State a very inquiry that the former Prime Minister, the right hon. simple question: why did the permanent secretary decide Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), that the contact point would be a special adviser and telephoned him and told him that he had “declared not a civil servant? war” on him when he learned that The Sun newspaper had switched sides to the Conservatives. Does the Secretary Mr Hunt: Adam Smith was a part of the process that of State think that the Opposition are using this as a was authorised by the permanent secretary. But he was self-serving opportunity to bash News International? not the only point of contact—there were many, but he was one of the points of contact. You need to do that. Mr Hunt: Yes. [HON.MEMBERS: “Why?”] Well, we set up a process that was approved by the permanent secretary, and we also Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Given put in place many safeguards to make sure that my the intimate relationship between any special adviser decisions were taken objectively, and seen to be taken and their Secretary of State, is the right hon. Gentleman objectively. I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that seriously contending that he did not know the content there is no evidence whatsoever, looking at my actual and the volume of what was transmitted? Why did he decisions, that any of those conversations had any not release all the content when he promised to do so? influence on them whatsoever. 969 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 970

Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I congratulate the to work with all parties to sort this out. That is the way Secretary of State on his statement. Under this Government to deal with this issue—not the rank opportunism that I we have seen action on phone hacking, action with the am afraid we have seen this morning. Leveson inquiry, action on media regulation reform, and importantly, the Secretary of State tells us, no Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): On the action in favour of the Murdoch empire in all the key issue of reference to the Competition Commission, decisions that he made. Does he agree that that is in the Secretary of State did not take independent advice, sharp contrast to all the actions of the previous Government so his protestations that he did not always act in which allowed the bent and dysfunctional media culture Mr Murdoch’s interests sound rather lame. Is he not in to be perpetuated in this country? fact following his own office’s advice to Murdoch, which is to find some political cover for a decision that he had Mr Hunt: That is absolutely right, and that is why we already taken? are trying to draw a line under what happened under previous Governments of all colours, and trying to sort Mr Hunt: I did take the independent advice. The this problem out. I think it is time that Labour Members independent advice was that this should be referred to took a responsible attitude, because this is an opportunity the Competition Commission, and I immediately did as to do something about this problem and we are trying I am required to do in the legal process: I wrote to News to do so honestly and conscientiously. Corporation and said, “I am minded to refer this to the Competition Commission.” It then has the right to Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The more that offer undertakings in lieu, and I have a duty to consider Government Back Benchers claim that the Secretary of those undertakings. I then wrote to the independent State is a man of integrity, the less the public are likely regulators again, to get their opinion before I took any to believe them. My hon. Friend the Member for Halton further decisions. We have been scrupulously fair in this (Derek Twigg) asked whose suggestion it was that a entire process. The proof of the pudding is that we took special adviser— decisions that News Corporation did not like. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should not Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I believe that the impugn integrity. [Interruption.] Order. I do not require success of the Olympics shows my right hon. Friend to any assistance from any Government Back Bencher; I be an outstanding Secretary of State. Does he agree am perfectly capable of handling this matter myself and that it is wrong to jump on the political bandwagon of that is what I am doing, and they should be quiet. The resignation before knowing the full facts? hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) asked a question; it was answered. The hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) should now ask his question, but without Mr Hunt: That is absolutely right, which is why I am the aspersions. Let us just have the question. looking forward to giving my full evidence to the Leveson inquiry, so that I can set the record straight on a number Bill Esterson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. To answer the of points. question, we need to know whose suggestion it was that Adam Smith should be the point of contact for News Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): The Secretary Corporation and why the key contact was a special of State has had three opportunities— adviser, not a civil servant. Nadhim Zahawi: Get your hand out of your pocket! Mr Hunt: We will look into all the processes— [Interruption.] We are very happy to learn lessons Mr Speaker: Order. The trouble with the hon. Gentleman about the way this was structured. The hon. Gentleman is that he is as excitable as he is good-natured. He is a can pick on one element of what happened, but he very amiable fellow, but we do not need the hon. should not ignore the big picture. The big picture was Gentleman’s advice on decorum. He should calm himself that we put a huge lock in the process to make sure that and take whatever tablets are required for the purpose. my decisions were impartial and seen to be impartial, and that was the involvement of independent regulators— something that we did not have to do, but that we chose Robert Flello: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary to do. That, in the end, is what demonstrates that my of State has had three opportunities to answer the decisions were taken on the basis of objective evidence. question about why Adam Smith was appointed to be the lead contact. Let me give him a fourth opportunity Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): In its to stand up and give some information to the House, rush to judgment, is the Labour party not in danger of unlike last year, when he was supposed to release documents cocking a snook and undermining the Leveson process to the House. itself? Mr Hunt: All the roles in that process were agreed by Mr Hunt: I do wish that Labour would allow these the permanent secretary. I do not know what greater issues to be considered in a calm manner, because they level of independence the hon. Gentleman wants for are very, very difficult issues. We need to get the right that decision, but let me tell him that we could not have solution. We are not saying that we got everything right been more transparent and more determined to make in our party over the years; we are saying that there is a sure that the whole process was fair. We know from process of reform that needs to happen—very importantly, what happened yesterday that everything did not go a process of reform that protects freedom of expression, right in the process. That is why, unfortunately, Adam which is the foundation of our democracy, and we want Smith has chosen to resign—because some of his contacts 971 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 972

[Mr Jeremy Hunt] Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): It is right that the Secretary of State has made a statement to the were inappropriate. But the crucial question is whether House today. Sadly, our First Minister has not shown any of that communication affected my decision, and it the same respect to the Scottish Parliament or to Scotland. did not. Given the revelations yesterday and the revelations coming out of the First Minister’s office today, is it not right Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Should that Alex Salmond gives evidence as soon as possible to not the Opposition stop playing party politics and wait the Leveson inquiry and so does his special adviser, for the outcome of the inquiry? Kevin Pringle?

Mr Hunt: Absolutely right. Mr Hunt: That is obviously a matter for the First Minister for Scotland, but all politicians need to be Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Will the Secretary of open and transparent, and all politicians need to show State confirm that he requested that Adam Smith be the humility in dealing with this problem. point of contact with News International? Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Why did the Mr Hunt: I will not confirm it because I do not think former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for it was a process that was—[HON.MEMBERS: “Answer.”] I Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—I would am trying to answer the question, with the greatest never refer to him in an ungracious and ungentlemanly respect to hon. Members. I do not think the process was way as “dodgy Gordon”—never once raise the issue of me asking for certain people to play certain roles. It was phone hacking with Rupert Murdoch? a more fluid process than that, but the structures that we ended up with were ones of which the permanent secretary approved. That is the crucial point. Mr Speaker: Order. I was just waiting to see what part of the question engaged the responsibility of the Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): The previous Secretary of State, but I am afraid the answer was none Government discussed in Cabinet whether to hold an of it. inquiry into phone hacking. Why does the Secretary of State think they chose not to? Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I have a high regard for the work that the Secretary of State has done, Mr Hunt: I am afraid the evidence is in black and particularly in relation to the Olympics, which are coming white. They did not want to take on the Murdoch to our great city in a few weeks. On the specific issue of empire. the statement that he has given, can he tell the House when he hopes to give evidence to the Leveson inquiry? Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): It is in his interest and in the interest of us all that we The ministerial code is very clear that the Minister is hear his full evidence as soon as possible. responsible for the actions of his special adviser. On that basis, was the Secretary of State negligent in not Mr Hunt: I have written to Lord Leveson to say that I finding out what his special adviser was doing and would like to give my evidence as soon as possible. At controlling him? For the fifth time, did the Secretary of present it is scheduled to be towards the end of May, State ask for him to be appointed as the point man? but it is a matter for Lord Leveson and I will respect everything he says. Mr Hunt: For the fifth time, the arrangements were approved by the permanent secretary. I do not think Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): According to there was any process of me asking for certain people to the e-mail trail that was released yesterday, a day after play certain roles. As I said, I think it was a more fluid Alex Salmond asked for help to smooth the way for The process than that, but the permanent secretary approved Sun to support the Scottish National party, News the processes that were happening. Corporation knew about a phone call scheduled between Alex Salmond and the Culture Secretary to lobby on Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): behalf of the BSkyB bid. Who set up that call and how I, too, know the Secretary of State as a man of great did News Corporation know about it? integrity and honour. Does he agree that we ought to await the outcome of the Leveson inquiry before jumping Mr Hunt: I do not know the answer to that question, to very dangerous conclusions? but I will happily try to find out for the hon. Gentleman. Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When it comes to the relationship between the press and politicians, Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): we are all partial to a certain extent. Some of us are in Does my right hon. Friend share my curiosity as to why government and some of us in opposition. We all have it was the deputy leader of the Labour party who chose different relationships. Because of my understanding of to respond to his statement today, rather than the hon. that, I tried to construct the process for the BSkyB bid Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis), the shadow Secretary to be as objective as possible. If we are to find a way of State? Could it— forward, we need to ask the advice of someone objective, someone impartial, someone who is outside the political Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is asking a process. That is why I thought we had cross-party question that is completely irrelevant to the terms of the agreement that we would set up this very detailed statement. [Interruption.] It is simply not relevant. The process and let it run its course. hon. Gentleman should go and do his homework. 973 Leveson Inquiry25 APRIL 2012 Leveson Inquiry 974

Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): One of the Department and News Corporation? Presumably a more bizarre revelations has been the taste in classical submission went to the permanent secretary and to the music and ballet of the Secretary of State. I believe we Secretary of State. Will he put that submission in the may just have witnessed his swan-song. Why, in response Library? Did he have any conversations with the permanent to a parliamentary question from my hon. Friend the secretary about the appropriateness of a politically Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis), did he say that he appointed special adviser having that role, and not a had no locus to intervene when the Business Secretary civil servant? was dealing with the matter, yet today he told us that he did offer to help? Which is it? Mr Hunt: I have already answered that question and will take no lectures from the Labour party on how to Mr Hunt: I made absolutely no interventions seeking manage special advisers, such as Damian McBride. to influence a quasi-judicial decision that was at that time the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Will Business. However, it is my responsibility to understand my right hon. Friend tell the House whether he is a what is going on in the media industry and the impact godfather to any of Mr Murdoch’s children and whether of this very important sector, which employs thousands he agrees that the Labour party is showing a fair amount of people. That is why I was interested to find out what of brass neck? was going on.

Mr Speaker: Order. For the benefit not of the House, Mr Speaker: Order. For the benefit of the hon. but of those who are listening to and interested in our Gentleman and as a reminder to the Secretary of State, proceedings, I make the factual observation that a request I point out that the statement the Secretary of State has for a statement by the Secretary of State for Culture, offered the House is on the Leveson inquiry, not godparents. Olympics, Media and Sport very properly comes from I think that we are clear on that. the shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, rather than from the shadow Secretary Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): of State for International Development. Responsibility for the management and conduct of special advisers rests with the Minister. Will he admit Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The very that he showed poor judgment and failed properly to many people throughout the country who wrote to us manage Mr Smith in such a sensitive role? when the responsibility for the decision was transferred to the Secretary of State will now feel that they were Mr Hunt: I will take no lectures from the hon. Lady absolutely right and the Government were absolutely or anyone in the Labour party on the behaviour of wrong. Can the Secretary of State explain why he is special advisers. With the exception of this particular such a poor manager of his staff that he did not know incident, the behaviour of my special adviser was exemplary. what messages were going out under the authority of the special permission to communicate? George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): The issues raised by the statement go to the heart of the important Mr Hunt: I manage my staff closely but I do not matter of media regulation. My constituents watching know every—[Interruption.] Excuse me. I— today will have seen a Minister with an unblemished record and the highest integrity carefully answering Mr Speaker: Order. The proceedings are becoming questions at the Dispatch Box without bravura in the rather rowdy. [Interruption.] Order. The Secretary of spirit of transparency, in stark contrast to the hysterical, State’s answers must be heard with proper courtesy. populist and demeaning behaviour of Labour Front Benchers, who have everything to be embarrassed about Mr Hunt: I do not know every single text message when it comes to their 13 years in office. and e-mail that every single person in my Department sends. When I found out yesterday about the text messages Mr Hunt: I thank my hon. Friend. I am not quite sure that were sent, it was a matter of profound regret, which what the question is, but let me say in response to an is why Adam Smith has taken the decision to resign today. earlier question that I think I have comprehensively Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I blown my chances of becoming a godparent to any believe that my right hon. Friend is a man of exceptional Murdoch. talent and integrity. Does he agree that in this House we should believe that people are innocent until proven Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Will the guilty, and the right way to get an answer to this issue is Secretary of State take this final opportunity to throw through the Leveson inquiry? light on a critical question: what discussions did he have with his permanent secretary, and what advice did he Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When it offer, on the appointment of Adam Smith as the key comes to the behaviour of special advisers, we will take contact? no lessons from the Opposition, having seen the infinitely worse behaviour of Damian McBride. Mr Hunt: I have told the House many times that I am aware of no discussions about specific roles in relation Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Who to what Adam Smith did, but what we ended up with suggested to the permanent secretary that Mr Smith was something that was sanctioned by the permanent should have the role of the go-between between the secretary, which is about as independent as it gets. 975 25 APRIL 2012 976

Points of Order Suicide (Prevention) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 1.41 pm No. 23) Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, in answer to a parliamentary 1.45 pm question, the Government revealed that, despite rejecting nearly 30,000 families who applied for help with insulation Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I beg to through Warm Front—[Interruption.] move, Mr Speaker: Order. It would be helpful if Members That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of had the courtesy not to yell “Well done” when a point State to set up a body to establish a public initiative for the prevention of suicide and self harm, to work with internet providers of order is being raised. People cannot complain about and others to reduce access to information on the internet and other people’s parliamentary manners on the one hand through other sources on methods of suicide and to develop a and then display a deficit on their own part on the system of alerts and blocks for internet searches relating to other. Let us have a bit of order. suicide; and for connected purposes. Caroline Flint: Thank you, Mr Speaker. After choosing suicide prevention as the subject of This is very important for families across the country my ten-minute rule Bill, I was introduced by my hon. facing high energy bills. The Government revealed that, Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) to despite rejecting nearly 30,000 families who applied for the Public Initiative for the Prevention of Suicide and help with insulation through Warm Front, there was an Self-harm, an organisation, based in Duncairn gardens underspend of over £50 million last year. That comes in Belfast, that endeavours to work with those who have on top of information I obtained last week showing attempted suicide or are contemplating suicide and the that the energy companies will not meet the obligations loved ones of those who have done so. I have been Labour put on them to help households with energy deeply humbled by the dedication of this organisation efficiency. Given that the House might prorogue before and am happy to work with it, and indeed others like it, Energy and Climate Change oral questions next Thursday, to do all I can to make a difference. is there any indication that DECC Ministers plan to It is true that when someone loses a loved one to come to the House and explain how they have left depression and suicide, little can be said that will really Warm Front in such a shambles? comfort them. The pain of such a loss is unimaginable and the hurt is inexplicable, and only those who have Mr Speaker: I have had no such indication. The right walked that lonely road have any real understanding of hon. Lady and I came into the House together in 1997 the multiplicity of feelings that wreck the mind. Many and, on the strength of knowing her for 15 years, I families bereaved through suicide regret that they did know that she is not inclined to let go of the bone. not recognise the signs that something was wrong and, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, therefore, carry guilt for many years. To such people we Mr Speaker. Last July the Prime Minister—I tried to must bring a message of hope. Although their intense warn him that I would raise this point of order; obviously feelings of grief can often be overwhelming and at times he has now left the Chamber—published a list of all the frightening, it is true that healing can yet come. meetings he had had with proprietors, editors and senior The words that sum up the work of PIPS are “planting media executives between May 2010 and July 2011. It the seeds of hope”, and I trust that my Bill will play at details only one meeting with Rupert Murdoch between least a small part in forwarding that worthy cause. The May and July 2011. However, this afternoon Rupert main thrust of the Bill is to gain help for those who feel Murdoch—this has been published by the Leveson suicidal and are vulnerable to the influence of others. inquiry—made it clear that there were meetings with Sadly, there is a great need for a change in public the Prime Minister on 18 May, 25 May, 21 July, another attitudes, and we as parliamentarians have a part to on 21 July, and 22 July. My point of order is to ask you play in increasing awareness and understanding about whether something that is laid in the Library of the House suicide as a major public health problem. For too long is just as much a matter of privilege as something that is this subject has been hidden and few desire to talk said. In other words, if someone has tabled something openly about it, as if silence on the subject will make it in the Library that has misled the House, is that just as go away. Nothing could be further from the truth. We serious a matter as something said in the Chamber? need openness and we must do everything we can to Mr Speaker: All Members, including the Prime Minister, help prevent suicide and provide urgent help and hope are responsible for the accuracy of what they say to the for those who are contemplating it. House, and my implicit assumption is that that includes Therefore, let us consider suicide and depression and material lodged with the House. I am happy to take its impact on the community. No matter what community further advice on that, but there is an encouraging nod someone says they come from, the pain and the question from the Clerk of the House from a sedentary position, “Why?” will hurt just the same. Statistics show that and that provides me with succour. Beyond that, I people living in the most economically deprived areas simply say that Members should be careful what they are at a high risk of depression, self-harm and suicide. say if—I emphasise if—they are not asking a question, To take an example from Northern Ireland, the number but making an accusation. I say that simply for the of suicides has increased by more than 60% in north general knowledge and enrichment of the House. I am and west Belfast. grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. Through its experience of working in the area of suicide prevention, PIPS has been able to identify some key themes associated with depression and suicide in our community. With the economic situation and the 977 Suicide (Prevention)25 APRIL 2012 Suicide (Prevention) 978 downturn, many people have experienced the pressure occurred on our roads? What would the professionals, of mounting debts and the threat of bankruptcy or the politicians and the general public have to say then? repossession. The recession has made that worse, with Suicide is not universally preventable, but it has been rising unemployment, and it is often those experiencing estimated that up to 80% of suicide victims display the highest levels of economic deprivation who are hit some warning signs or symptoms. hardest. The credit crunch is also likely to affect young Many turn to the internet to seek the comfort and people from deprived backgrounds, as those who are guidance that they cannot find in their daily lives, but, academically unqualified will have greater difficulty although we must recognise the internet as an important than ever getting jobs in this new climate. resource in today’s society, we must be mindful of the Other issues that affect the emotional well-being of fact that there are websites and chatrooms which encourage our young people are a lack of coping strategies and a the vulnerable, the lonely and the depressed to consider lack of communication skills. Instead of spending time taking their own lives. talking to family and friends, so much of the communication Many young people talk about “catching the bus” of our young people nowadays is non-verbal. There is when they refer to seeking information on the internet texting, Facebook, chatrooms, e-mail and internet gaming about suicide. Organisations such as PIPS believe that, instead of face-to-face communication, and that may when certain terms are used to access information on leave some young people unable to express their feelings suicide or self-harm, a “pop-up”should appear, informing when they experience the difficult times that we all the individual of the help and support that is available. encounter. A gatekeeper or guardian should be in place to monitor It is therefore important for us all to recognise the websites, and they should have the power to forward signs in our family and friends which could signal that information to the appropriate authority with a view to something is deeply troubling them—that they may having the website closed down. A complaints procedure have a problem. People need to know that they are not should also be in place. I feel that as young people today on their own and where they can get help. We need to be are becoming more insular and relying more on computers more aware, to ask, “Are you okay? Do you want to to interact socially, that would make a significant talk?” and, of course, to be there for them when they contribution to lowering the levels of suicide and of desire to talk. I remember a young man at 2 o’clock in self-harm which are sadly prevalent in today’s society. the morning in a hospital bed, saying to me, “I wanted In conclusion, there is no single approach to suicide to talk, but nobody wanted to listen.” prevention. It requires a co-ordinated approach and a The end of personal relationships and the breakdown combined effort not only from public services and of the family unit all take their toll in today’s society. organisations, but from the private sector, voluntary Depression, suicide and self-harm are issues that do not groups and individuals. I believe, however, that this Bill discriminate; they affect everyone and touch whole families can represent a significant step in addressing a complex and entire communities. Suicide occurs in persons of all issue that devastates too many families and claims too ages and backgrounds, but certain groups of people are many young lives. The challenge is now before this at an increased risk of suicide attempts. These include House and this Government to do something in response persons with a psychiatric illness and those with a to the call for action. For too long, too many have history of attempted suicide. passed on by because the sorrow and grief of suicide has not touched their particular family. I have pleasure Almost 1 million people worldwide die by suicide in presenting this Bill to the House. each year. That is more than in all the wars that take Question put and agreed to. place throughout the world. Every year there can be anywhere from 10 million to 20 million suicide attempts, Ordered, making suicide the 8th leading cause of death in males That Dr William McCrea, Ian Paisley, David Simpson, and the 16th leading cause of death in females. Those Lady Hermon, Ms Margaret Ritchie, Naomi Long, statistics are most prevalent among teenage boys aged Kate Hoey, Fiona Bruce, Andrew Percy, Mark Pritchard, 15 to 19 years old and men of 20 to 24 years of age. The Paul Goggins and Mr Frank Field present the Bill. devastation that it creates makes it a public health issue. Dr William McCrea accordingly presented the Bill. In Northern Ireland last year, 59 people died on our Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on roads, yet 313 people died by suicide. What if that had Friday 27 April and to be printed (Bill 333). 979 25 APRIL 2012 980

Civil Aviation Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Civil Aviation Bill Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill 1.55 pm Committee. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I beg to move, New Clause 2 That the Order of 30 January 2012 (Civil Aviation Bill) (Programme) be varied as follows: ACCESS FOR DISABLED AND REDUCED MOBILITY AIR 1. Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the Order shall be omitted. PASSENGERS 2. Proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third ‘(1) The Secretary of State and the CAA will produce an Reading shall be taken on two days in accordance with the annual report on disabled and reduced mobility air transport following provisions. passenger experiences of airport operation services and air Consideration transport services which must include evidence on the extent to 3. Proceedings on Consideration shall be taken on the first day which airport operations and air transport services are compliant and shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a with relevant legislation, regulations and codes of practice for the conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day. time being in force.’.—(Jim Fitzpatrick.) Third Reading Brought up, and read the First time. 4. Proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken on the second day and shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a 1.56 pm conclusion two hours after their commencement. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I beg If the House agrees to the programme motion, to move, That the clause be read a Second time. consideration of the Bill will be taken today, and Third Reading will take place after the Queen’s Speech and Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss last for up to two hours. The reason why Third Reading the following: will take place on another day is that this is a carry-over Amendment 8, page 13, line 17, clause 18, at end Bill, and, if it is to be successfully carried over, this add— House must retain ownership of it until after the Queen’s Speech and pass it on to the other place in the next ‘(3) A licence must include an obligation on licence holders to procure and publish annual surveys of passenger satisfaction, Session. including but not limited to— The proposals in the Bill were subject to extensive (a) baggage handling services, and consultation, and to pre-legislative scrutiny by the Select (b) arrangements for delays affecting air passengers.’. Committee on Transport, for which I am grateful. The Amendment 9, page 13, line 17, at end add— Bill also received very thorough scrutiny in Committee, and I thank Members for that. I also welcome the ‘(3) A licence must include provisions requiring the holder of a extent of cross-party support for much of the Bill, and I licence to develop passenger welfare plans.’. am confident that today’s debate on Report will maintain Amendment 10, page 13, line 17, at end add— the high standards and the well-informed contributions ‘(3) A licence must include provisions requiring the holder of a that we have seen in the House throughout the Bill’s licence to provide support for stranded passengers at airports.’. consideration. Question put and agreed to. Jim Fitzpatrick: Mr Speaker, it is a pleasure to see you still in the Chair. I think we can promise you a quieter ride than you experienced earlier in this session— [Interruption.] And it is a pleasure for me to welcome Mr Deputy Speaker to his place. It is nice to know that Mr Speaker left as a happy individual. New clause 2 and amendments 8, 9 and 10 relate to the passenger experience and to the licensing system. On the Minister’s words about the programme motion, I note the great consensus on the Bill. There are still a few areas of disagreement, but I am sure that the House will generally welcome the Bill; Opposition Members certainly do. New clause 2 deals especially with those with disabilities, and its provisions were ably spoken to in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin). The Civil Aviation Authority’s briefing on Report was sent to us by its Government relations officer, Ms Sandra Webber, and it states: “The licence regime should minimise the distortions associated with regulatory intervention. In response to a request for advice from the Secretary of State, the CAA published an indicative licence to assist Parliament in its scrutiny of the Bill. It illustrates, for example, one possible approach whereby a licence could include provisions aimed at strengthening airports’ operational resilience to ensure they are much better prepared to avoid the passenger disruption previously experienced during severe weather.” We very much agree with that approach. 981 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 982

My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe, as I Jim Fitzpatrick: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for have said, led in Committee on the provisions of new raising that point. Amendment 9 states that it should be clause 2, and we heard a number of moving speeches by incumbent on the licence holder to “develop passenger colleagues on both sides of the House, relating to the welfare plans”. That does not necessarily mean that the embarrassment, difficulties and indignity experienced licence holder has to be totally responsible for delivery. at airports here and abroad by constituents with disabilities, There should be engagement with the airlines and a and encouraging the Government to address those issues collective approach to that matter. Obviously, the CAA and to ensure that best practice is rolled out right across and the Government should be involved in that. I was the piece. not narrowing down the responsibility in the way that I Amendment 8 states that a licence misled my hon. Friend to believe. “must include an obligation on licence holders to procure and Passenger welfare plans were a recommendation of publish annual surveys of passenger satisfaction” the Select Committee on Transport in its pre-legislative on “baggage handling” and “arrangements for delays”. scrutiny of the Bill. In Committee, the Minister did not We included the words “but not limited to” because in give a good reason why she does not believe that those Committee, the Minister rightly drew attention to the plans should be included in the licences for airports. She fact that the UK Border Agency is subject to the Home said that the CAA will draw up the licences and that it Office and would therefore have been outwith the scope will be a matter for that organisation. We do not think of our original amendment. We have omitted that that that provision is strong enough. Given that the suggestion. However, we hope that the phrase primary duty of the Bill is to the passenger, as we have discussed for some months, we believe that the development “including but not limited to” of passenger welfare plans would reinforce the focus on will give licence holders the opportunity to collate the giving passengers the best experience possible at our data that the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel airports. They have clearly not had that in previous Mills) said it would be appropriate for the CAA to winters. publish on behalf of airports or for airports to publish on their own behalf because they would be of interest. The Transport Committee also stated in its pre-legislative scrutiny: “Where possible, airport licences should be structured so that 2pm they address key areas of passenger dissatisfaction.” Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I am grateful to I do not need to repeat the statistics on the misery that the hon. Gentleman for reminding us of the long debate has been experienced by passengers at difficult times that we had in Committee. Does he agree that recent over a number of years. The reports, particularly the news stories about delays at Heathrow have only Begg report, on what happened to passengers at Heathrow strengthened the argument that it would be in the during the disruption of December 2010 make alarming airports’ interest to publish those data, so that passengers reading, even if one looks only at the headlines. Nine know whose fault the delays are? and a half thousand people were sleeping in the terminal, passengers were seeking refuge in subways, a lorry Jim Fitzpatrick: I could not agree more. I will discuss carrying blankets for passengers had to turn back on previous experience, but, as the hon. Gentleman says, the M25 because of traffic conditions and very few recent experience underscores the expectation that the passengers were provided with water or refreshments. It Government, the authorities or the airports will have to was absolute chaos and confusion. I am not blaming deal with the experience of passenger delays. The horror anybody for that. It is matter of record and fact, and we stories that are starting to come out about passengers all want to avoid it happening again. experiencing delays of some hours because of shortages I anticipate that the Minister will refer us to clause 83 of immigration staff and the article in The Daily Telegraph on the collection of information and data, which we on Monday or Tuesday of this week in which the discussed extensively in Committee. We accept that previous chief executive of UKBA offered some analysis clause 83 is drawn widely enough to include the proposals of the problem underscore the fact that there is an in new clause 2 and amendments 8 and 10, because the important matter to be addressed. airports could be responsible for providing the relevant Amendment 9 is the generic proposal. It states: data. However, given the experience of recent years, we “A licence must include provisions requiring the holder of a believe that amendment 9 should be a basic licence licence to develop passenger welfare plans.” requirement. The fact that the CAA has suggested that That is an all-encompassing proposal that we think such a requirement could be incorporated and has would cover all the matters that passengers would expect included it in the example for the Heathrow licence airports and airlines to deal with, including stranded suggests that it thinks that it will do that anyway. We passengers, resilience, delays and all manner of difficulties think that the Government should make it a duty on the that passengers might experience. Amendment 10 looks CAA to make passenger welfare plans a licence requirement. specifically at the position of stranded passengers and suggests that something should be done for them. Nigel Mills: Presumably, the hon. Gentleman accepts that clause 83 will apply to all airports and not just to Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): the three that are likely to have a competition licence. As ever and as was the case in Committee, I am following Amendment 9 would not be of any use to a load of the logic of my hon. Friend’s contribution. Will he passengers who do not use Heathrow, Gatwick or Stansted. expand a little on why it should be the owners of airports who provide provision for stranded passengers Jim Fitzpatrick: I accept that point. I suggested in and not the airlines, as has previously been established Committee that there should be a delineation of the in law? differences between licensed airports, given that all airports 983 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 984

[Jim Fitzpatrick] issues, the time it takes people to get into the country and baggage handling, are not necessarily the responsibility have a licence of some description. Given that the most of the airports, but they are, in reality, seen as responsible difficult passenger experiences of recent years have for them. We have heard examples recently of long been at Heathrow, given that an indicative licence has queues, which are the responsibility of the UK Border been published for Heathrow and given that Heathrow Force, yet happen in the airport and are part of the air is the market leader and our only hub airport, whatever passenger’s experience. There do not seem to be any Heathrow does will be examined by everybody else. If means of addressing that dual responsibility in the Bill, the CAA says that it expects Heathrow to do something, and that needs attention. that might be adopted by other airports. We therefore My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse do not think that it would be inappropriate to include (Jim Fitzpatrick) referred to the Select Committee’s this requirement in the licence, even if it applies only to earlier work on the implications of bad passenger Heathrow, because it would be copied as best practice experiences and the need for passenger welfare plans. by the other first-class airports around the country. The problems that air passengers experience at times of We all want to ensure that there is a good passenger disruption during otherwise fairly normal periods are a experience, especially for those with disabilities, as was long-running issue, and there has also been the near- discussed in Committee and as is outlined in new clause 2. breakdown of the service in situations such as very bad We hope that the situation will be better as a result of weather. We produced a report drawing attention to the the Bill and are confident that it will be. We congratulate matter and Ministers told us, or certainly implied, that the Government on bringing it forward. However, we the new licence conditions could contain requirements think that it would be much better if, in addition to for passenger welfare plans to be put into practice, so more and clearer data being published on the passenger that there would be clear responsibility for looking after experience, there was a simple licence requirement, as passengers and giving them information in times of outlined in amendment 9. We will seek the view of the severe disruption. That does not seem to be happening House on that if the Minister is not able to reassure us in the Bill. in the course of the debate. I know that the Civil Aviation Authority, in laying down what I think it calls its indicative licence conditions, Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): has said that passenger welfare issues are part of the This group of amendments draws attention to the licensing process. However, it is extremely unclear whether importance of the passenger experience. The Transport the conditions will be enforceable, how clear they will be Committee has looked at that theme a number of times and whether there is to be a further consultation period over the years. Some improvements have been made, before any such conditions are laid down. That is another but there are still major questions, some of which are area of concern. raised by the amendments. All the points that I have made relate to the amendments, Overriding the specific points made by the amendments and I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response. is the general question of who speaks for passengers. The experience of passengers travelling by air is extremely The previous organisation, the Air Transport Users important, and it is time that it became a focus of our Council airport consultative committee stopped being attention. responsible for airing passengers’ views. It was suggested that Passenger Focus might take up that responsibility, Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ but that did not materialise. When the Transport Committee Co-op): I wish to make a few comments, mainly about questioned the CAA in our pre-legislative scrutiny, it Edinburgh airport, which is obviously of particular told us that it was setting up a panel. When we asked interest to the residents of my constituency and has what form the panel would take, how its members recently been purchased by a new operator following would be chosen and how it would operate, the answers the earlier competition decisions. It has been taken over were unclear. There is still a big question mark over by the operator of Gatwick and London City airports whether there is effective representation for air passengers. among others. Such representation does not seem to be enshrined in By and large, the passenger experience at Edinburgh the Bill. I would like to hear the Minister’s comments airport is good. Most of the time, people can move on that. fairly smoothly through the airport. Nevertheless, the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Graham Stringer: My hon. Friend is making a very Riverside (Mrs Ellman) made apply at certain times of good point about who represents passengers. Does she the day. My constituents frequently enter the UK at agree that a flaw in the Bill is that it does not state not Heathrow or other airports in the south and then travel only who represents passengers but what the interests of up to Edinburgh, and I know from personal experience passengers are? If that major flaw is not corrected about difficulties such as long queues at immigration today, I hope it will be corrected in the other place. and at security. Sometimes only one or two search points seem to be open even though eight or nine are Mrs Ellman: I thank my hon. Friend for drawing available. We all experience that, and if the Bill can attention to some important points. I agree that the matter make the situation better, I will certainly welcome it. needs further thought, and I hope that the Minister can Such problems are not generally the experience at respond on it. Edinburgh airport, but two aspects of passenger welfare The Select Committee’s work also drew attention to standards need to be addressed there and elsewhere. some problem areas in the allocation of responsibility The first is the issue of international flights in particular for looking after passenger experiences. Key passenger arriving late in the evening, when either the UKBA concerns, particularly about passport and immigration facility or the airport handling facility is apparently 985 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 986 unable to cope with arrivals, particularly if planes are chaos at security. The chaos at the UKBA last summer slightly delayed. As a result, I have had many complaints meant the abandonment of checks on potentially hundreds about people having had to wait for long periods before of thousands of people, and we—least of all the Home they could get off the plane or get past a locked door Secretary—still do not know who came in through our into the terminal building. I hope that the Bill will lead borders. The relaxation of controls was a direct consequence to an improved service for passengers, both in general of the reduction in the number of staff, and although and through the new standards that it will bring into that is primarily the Home Secretary’s responsibility, it effect. has a significant negative impact on the passenger experience. The public rightly expect proper immigration 2.15 pm controls to be in place, and passengers expect there to be sufficient staff to prevent massive delays at airports. I also wish to take up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham The Minister of State, Department for Transport Stringer) about the welfare of stranded passengers. (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I am, of course, very interested Anything that the airports can do for such passengers is in matters related to the UKBF, but if the Opposition welcome, but we all know either from direct experience are so concerned about the issue, I am puzzled that they or from experiences that have been recounted to us that did not table an amendment on it. the clear requirements in European legislation laid down on airlines in times of delay do not always seem to be Pat Glass: We did table amendments on the issue in operated with zealous enthusiasm. Passengers are not Committee and considered it in some detail, and I was always given the support that is their right, and they are not happy with the responses that I received. That is not always given compensation or told how to apply for why I am raising it again. it as they ought to be. I hope there will be a joined-up approach between the requirements that the Bill will make on airports, those that the amendments would Mrs Villiers: If the hon. Lady was so unhappy with make on them, and the requirements laid upon the the response given in Committee, I am surprised that an airlines. amendment has not been tabled for consideration today.

Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I say at the Pat Glass: The proposal is part of this group of outset that overall, this is a good Bill. It was drafted by amendments. The Minister can say what she likes, but the previous Government and taken forward by the the passenger experience at our airports, which involves current one, and I agree with much that is in it, but I still standing for hours in long queues because of cuts in have some concerns about a number of issues, one of UKBA staff, is simply not good enough. which is passenger welfare. I was a member of the Public Bill Committee and I raised the issue, but I did Jim Fitzpatrick: Does my hon. Friend agree that the not receive sufficient assurances from the Minister that Opposition took the Minister’s advice that UKBA matters the Government were taking it seriously enough in the were for the Home Office, which is why we have decided Bill. to focus on passenger experience and welfare? As we have said, Mr Deputy Speaker, we would like to press The Minister was unable to satisfy me on three key those proposals to a Division if the Minister cannot issues: first, whether airports will be required to take reassure us. That is why UKBA has not been mentioned, seriously enough the issue of passenger welfare when and I am sure it is also why my hon. Friend did not table things go wrong; secondly, how the Government will an amendment on UKBA. routinely measure passenger satisfaction; and thirdly, how, having measured passenger satisfaction, they will make systemic changes to improve passengers’ experiences. Pat Glass: I said earlier that although UKBA cuts are primarily a matter for the Home Secretary, they have a The Transport Committee has recommended that the significant negative impact on the passenger experience. Government structure licences specifically to address key passenger satisfaction issues, including those relating I agree with the premise in the Bill that the passenger to immigration and baggage handling. We are all familiar must be put at the heart of the regulatory regime. The with the frustration, anger and stress that can be caused Bill is right to give the CAA a primary duty on air at airports when our luggage is lost or sent to a different transport users. The Bill is not specific enough on how airport, or when we are close to missing a flight because that objective will be met, whereas the new clause and of a long queue at security. I was able to relate to the amendments would provide such specificity. Public Bill Committee an occasion when I was held in a Delays caused by UKBA checks, baggage handling long queue at security. As the flight time got closer and and adverse weather cause huge passenger dissatisfaction closer, the anxiety that that caused me was made much and are made that much worse in times of crisis, whether worse because I was travelling alone. In the current that is caused by adverse weather conditions for which economic situation, many families are having to prioritise there should have better planning, or by volcanic ash—in what they can afford and consider whether their finances the last such crisis, the needs of passengers hit an will stretch to an annual holiday. When they have saved all-time low. hard all year for a well-earned break, they deserve An Office for National Statistics omnibus survey better treatment and a better experience at our airports. conducted in February 2010—it came hot on the heels The Government have cut 6,500 staff from the UK of the crisis caused by adverse weather conditions at Border Agency, with 1,500 going from the UK Border Heathrow—revealed that although most passengers are Force, including more than 800 this year alone. We have largely satisfied with their experience at airports, they heard the concerns that have been raised about the have different views on different aspects, and were not relaxation of security checks at our borders to avoid equally satisfied with all aspects of service. The aspects 987 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 988

[Pat Glass] recognise that vast improvement. The value of knowing sooner rather than later whether a flight is cancelled of least satisfaction included information provided on should not be underestimated. It could mean that fewer bringing goods into the UK, on which there has been passengers are forced to endure hours, and possibly some improvement; information on destinations served days, in an airport. If they know earlier, they can make by the nearest airport; baggage collection; and the cost alternative, more comfortable arrangements. of flights. The problems also included the supply of de-icing The CAA discovered in its own survey of passenger and anti-icing products, and road salt. We should ensure satisfaction at airports that waiting at immigration was better liaison over the treatment of the appropriate a concern. Fewer than 70% of passengers at London’s public road network between airports and local highways three major airports were satisfied with immigration authorities. There has been some improvement on that, services, and 8% of surveyed passengers waited more too. In 2010, my local authority properly prepared for than 20 minutes. That impacts on our international the winter weather. It bought and arranged delivery of reputation. I agree that the primary duty should be to salt, but at the last minute, in an absolute panic, the promote the interests of passengers, but passengers are Government effectively took salt that had been paid for telling us that that does not always happen; that it by local authorities and transferred it to parts of the happens better in some aspects of the service than in country that had failed to plan. However, we must others; and that it can break down completely in times accept that there has been some improvement on that of crisis. situation. Following the Transport Committee inquiry into the During the 2010 crisis, the then Transport Secretary, failure of both the Government and the industry adequately the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge to prepare and respond to the severe winter conditions (Mr Hammond), promised urgently to legislate to penalise in December 2010, the absolutely appalling experience airport owners for bad service, but passengers are still faced by many passengers, particularly at Heathrow, being left without the added protection such reforms demonstrated the need for the sector significantly to up should have brought. Airlines and airports are quick its game in relation to passenger welfare. The Bill fails enough to take passengers’ money, but much less keen to deliver on that. to step up and help in times of crisis. Damage has been “Keeping the UK moving”, the excellent Transport done to our international reputation and to the needs of Committee report on the impact on transport of the the air-travelling public, whether they are disabled or winter weather in 2010, recommended that airports not, and it is time for the Government to step in and put passengers first. “be required to develop passenger welfare plans and to provide” sufficient Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I want to make “support to stranded passengers during periods of disruption.” just a couple of comments. I congratulate the Minister It is disappointing that the Government do not take the and the shadow Minister on how well the Bill Committee same view. Is the Bill not a perfect opportunity to was run. All members of the Committee contributed to ensure that airports provide assistance to passengers, the Bill and the best way forward. even if only for elderly or disabled passengers, or for As an elected representative for Strangford in Northern those travelling with small children, who could be stranded Ireland, I have been contacted by three airports in in airports for days at a time? Northern Ireland—Belfast City, Belfast International, The UK’s reputation was damaged by scenes of and Londonderry—because they want to ensure that thousands of stranded passengers in airports over Christmas the current regulatory system is efficient. Some perceive 2010, and equally damaged by the aftermath of the inefficiency and say that the regulation is burdensome, Icelandic volcano eruption. I was contacted by a number and that the system clearly needs reform. In some ways, of constituents, as I know other hon. Members were, the Bill Committee tried to ensure that we can provide who were trying to get back from airlines the vast an efficient, flexible system that works well. If we have amounts of money that they had been forced to spend done so, it is good news. while stranded. Members of the Bill Committee will New clause 2 refers to an remember that I entertained them with my family’s experience. I was trying to help my elderly and disabled “annual report on disabled and reduced mobility air transport parents who were stranded in Barcelona. Their experience passenger experiences”. was perhaps extreme, but it was by no means unique, Many hon. Members have been contacted by constituents and the Government need to ensure that in future, —this point was made in Committee—who have particular passengers—disabled or not—do not experience such a and specific, but not unique, personal medical and shocking lack of care. health circumstances. They might have had an operation In the light of such fiascos, the Bill is an opportunity and now carry a colostomy bag, or they might have had to place obligations on airports to provide help for metal inserted into their body to protect their spine or stranded passengers in similar situations, and to prevent shin. As a result of wars all over the world, many people a repeat of the past. The need for early, decisive action have lost limbs, and many soldiers and civilians have on whether to cancel services is particularly important. prosthetic limbs, yet when it comes to improving their There has been some improvement in that respect. I was experience in airports, we find that the process seems to due to fly out of Heathrow a couple of months ago be inflexible. I have heard complaints on that. when planes were again stranded by snow. I got a text The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and and then a phone call from the airport telling me that East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) introduced a ten-minute my flight was cancelled, which saved me trailing up to rule Bill on such problems, so the matter has been the airport and standing around all day. We should talked about before. I would like to know how we can 989 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 990 improve the experience of airports for those people, power and people have to fly from there on certain who have made it clear to me as an elected representative—I routes—it would be perfectly fair for the CAA, recognising suspect they have made it clear to other hon. Members— that risk, to impose conditions. We would all want the that their experience was not the best and asked how we CAA to do that, if it saw those risks to any part of the can make it better. I believe that we can. I know that the passenger experience. Minister will assure us on that matter, and I look I want to touch on the experience of getting through forward to her comments. passport control. Having been through four UK airports this week on Northern Ireland Select Committee duties, 2.30 pm I was obviously spared having to go through passport Amendments 9 and 10 relate to the welfare plans and control both in Northern Ireland and at Gatwick on support for stranded passengers at airports. The shadow Monday evening, so I have no recent miserable experiences Minister mentioned the experience when an airplane to recount. However, this issue is becoming a reputational does not go, passengers have to take a bus from A to B risk with people arriving in the UK on holiday or and they have no water and so on. A great many people business, so we need to get it right. There is no particular have told me how their holiday turned out to be the magic to getting it right. The airports and the UK opposite of what it should have been. There is a programme Border Force all have a role to play. As was said, it is a on Sky television about holiday nightmares. I do not matter of getting resourcing to match the volume of know whether many people watch it. Those who watch passengers and flights, knowing when passengers are television after midnight probably do. There have been coming from jurisdictions that could make border control many examples of such problems occurring. For ordinary more complicated, and making available all the facilities people, our holiday is our chance to get away for two that the Border Force needs, such as rooms near the weeks, wherever it might be across the planet. It is an passport checking station and so on. Airports could escape from the humdrum of life. But suddenly people invest in electronic scanning devices as well. We need to find themselves catapulted into airport queues, the flight encourage airports and UKBF to work together is an hour late and so on. pragmatically to make the service the best it can be. That reminds me of the holiday package scheme. The Minister asked why no amendments were tabled That is also part of the experience. People have told me on this for Report stage. I moved one in Committee, of that when they booked their holiday they felt it looked course, and I was tempted to bring it back on Report to like a horse and smelt like a horse—if I may use that get the wider view of the House, but I was not sure that terminology—but that it turned out to be donkey. That the Whips would welcome my being tempted down that might not be the best illustration in the world for air line. Nevertheless, we need to find a way of getting travel, but it explains, I hope, exactly where the issues UKBF to recognise its responsibility and to publish all lie. I am therefore seeking assurances from the Minister the data on the length of queues by airport so that on traveller welfare and the necessary passenger passengers and airports can know what the situation is commitment to ensure that travelling through airports likely to be. When the transparent data are made available, is an experience people can enjoy as part of their all involved will have the motivation to get those queues holiday. I always think, when I go on holiday—I go as short as possible by making the most effective use of once a year for two weeks—that my holiday starts when the resources available. I leave the house, and it is the same for many others. The experience at the airport is part of the holiday, which is Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): It is interesting to why we need some assurances. follow the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills). He said that he could not support the Opposition’s Nigel Mills: I had not planned to speak to the new amendments because airports should be doing these clause and amendments, but I was tempted by the things anyway. If they were, we would not need the exchange on border services to relive some of our amendments, but because they are not, the amendments Committee debates. are important. That is particularly so for UK plc, given I cannot support the shadow Minister’s amendments. that, so often, the first and last impressions that overseas I am not convinced that the licence dealing with the visitors get of the UK is of the airport. economic regulation of airports is the right place to impose conditions that ought to apply to every airport. Nigel Mills: For clarification, my point was that all I would hope that all airports operating in the UK airports should be doing this but that the amendments would recognise that all these extremely sensible and would apply the measure to only three UK airports. worthy things were natural obligations that they ought to fulfil anyway, and that we should not need to legislate Julie Hilling: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his for them. If we do, though, we should legislate for them clarification. I absolutely agree that all airports should all, not just the one, two or three airports that happen to be doing it, but the Bill enables us at least to put the be economically regulated. obligation on some; we would then hope that the others Clause 18, to which the amendments relate, allows— would follow. If airports want to attract business from possibly even instructs—the Civil Aviation Authority to passengers and other businesses, their standards need include conditions it thinks to be as high as those of the others. It is important, “necessary or expedient having regard to the risk that the holder therefore, that we set down what we expect from our of the licence may engage in conduct that amounts to an abuse airports and airlines. of…market power”. As we heard, the Transport Select Committee undertook If it was felt that an airport such as Heathrow was the inquiry, “Keeping the UK moving: The impact on giving a particularly poor passenger welfare service transport of the winter weather in December 2010”—a because it could away get with it—because it has market very long title. That in-depth report looked into all 991 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 992

[Julie Hilling] Passengers were given laptops to try to rebook their flights—the laptops were around the terminal. That is elements of transport—not only aviation but the road fine for regular travellers and regular internet users—perhaps network and how transport links together—and they could find their way around the system—but many recommended that passenger welfare should be at the passengers would clearly not have had the first clue heart of airport operations. It also agreed with the about what to do. There seems to have been an absolute recommendation of the Begg report that Heathrow and lack of care and concern for passengers at that point. other airports should develop welfare plans for passengers Indeed, there was no contingency plan in place to during disruption. The report stated: ensure that those with medical conditions, who are “Passenger welfare should be at the heart of airport operations. more vulnerable—for instance, those with diabetes—had We concur with the recommendation of the Begg report that access to food, water and other things they needed. Heathrow should develop a welfare plan for passengers during There must be a system in place and a channel of periods of disruption: other airports should do the same. It is support for those who need medical support at times of unacceptable that such plans do not already exist. If airlines fail disruption. to meet their obligations to accommodate stranded passengers, airports should be prepared to step into the breach. We would It is true that we all get those messages on the support measures by which airport operators could reclaim the television or radio: “Do not travel unless your journey costs of providing support to stranded passengers from airlines is absolutely essential.” Unfortunately, the vast majority which had not discharged their legal responsibilities and we of us always believe that our journey is indeed absolutely recommend that the CAA investigate how this can be achieved.” essential. People set out in their cars or other modes of The Government responded: transport when, if they had stopped to think about it, “However, the legal responsibility to provide care and assistance they would not have done so. Airports face that difficulty to passengers remains that of airlines. It is important that any in dealing with us—that even when it is snowing or initiatives to bolster the provision of passenger welfare during there is thick fog, we believe that our flight is going to periods of disruption, for instance through passenger welfare take off. Airports have to accommodate themselves to plans, do not create any uncertainty in this area.” the fact that we are not always sensible. Living in a The Committee welcomed the Bill, about which the country that does not often have severe weather, we are Government response said: perhaps more naive about when we should travel and “The CAA would have a new primary duty that would put the when we should not. However, we also have to recognise interests of passengers unambiguously at the heart of the regulatory that many of those travelling to airports set out the day regime.” before or when it is not apparent that there will be bad It is disappointing, then, that on Report we are still weather later. Again, we have to consider not only urging the Government to put in the Bill the obligation human nature, but the fact that people will set out for airports to develop welfare plans. before conditions worsen. That is particularly true when we think about volcanoes erupting and other things Mrs Villiers: I hope that I can reassure the hon. Lady. that can happen unexpectedly. Our concern is not about the amendments’ content but Going back to the winter problems, particularly at that we can trust the CAA to put these kinds of issues in Heathrow—I acknowledge that other airports dealt the licence system. The best way to ensure effective much better with the weather—it is unacceptable for regulation is to give the regulator the decision on exactly passengers to have such an experience. It unacceptable how to focus on passenger welfare. The hon. Lady can not only for them, but for UK plc. Our airports are our be confident that even if the amendments fall today, the gateway to the rest of the world. We need airports with CAA will ultimately put exactly this sort of thing in the first-world standards, not standards one would expect licences, on which it will consult as soon as the Bill in a developing country. becomes law. There did not seem to be a huge amount of improvement at Heathrow this year. perhaps I could be criticised for Julie Hilling: I thank the Minister for her intervention, saying, on the one hand, that not enough information but I have to say that I am not reassured, because if we was given on previous occasions, but when there was a believe that those things are fundamental, I do not see threat of snow, a quarter of the flights were cancelled. why we should not put them in the Bill. She reassures us The report states that flights should be cancelled and that the regulator will ensure that those things are in information given in advance if such disruption is feared. place, but let us tell the regulator. Let us say, unambiguously Perhaps the Minister has better information than I do and up front, that we expect those things to happen and and will be able to respond, but four inches of snow that the regulator will ensure that, rather than allowing were threatened—the threat was of snow being dumped, the regulator to make those decisions for itself. rather than falling long term, over days or hours. I want to talk, as others have, about what happened Considering that we are supposed to have had this great at Heathrow in the winter disruption of 2010. The point investment in snow clearing and other things to keep is worth reiterating, because the Begg report made our airports moving, cancelling a quarter of the flights alarming reading. Let us look only at the headlines: feels like a knee-jerk reaction. 9,500 people sleeping in the terminal; passengers seeking Yes, airlines are responsible for the treatment of refuge in subways; a lorry carrying blankets for passengers passengers, but it is not good enough for different having to turn back on the M25 because of the traffic airports to have separate passenger welfare plans. A conditions; very few passengers provided with water passenger needs to know what support they will get at and refreshments; absolute chaos and confusion. As the any airport, because it is the airport, not the airline, that Begg report found: will be blamed if there are problems. Whether a passenger “Confused and contradictory messages caused incorrect signals has booked with Virgin, British Airways or whoever, to go to airlines, to passengers, and from airlines to passengers”. they will blame Heathrow, Manchester or Gatwick for 993 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 994 their bad experience and lack of support, rather than Although I can understand and agree with the sentiment the airline that should be providing that support. Airports behind much of what has been said today and the general clearly need the power and responsibility to have concerted aims of the amendments, I cannot recommend accepting passenger welfare plans, and the CAA needs the authority them. The Bill provides a far more effective means of to ensure that that happens. protecting passengers in relation to the matters raised. Clause 18 and the licensing regime will give the CAA 2.45 pm the flexibility to tailor licence conditions to the specific circumstances facing individual airports. That flexibility Mrs Villiers: It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair is important as a means of minimising distortions associated this afternoon, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to with regulatory intervention and ensuring that the action echo the comments of the shadow Minister for aviation taken by the CAA is proportionate and tailored to to the effect that our experience in the Chamber today individual circumstances. As I said in response to the shows something of a contrast. It shows the great hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), giving the strengths of this Parliament—that we can embrace independent expert regulator flexibility and discretion both the aggressive exchanges that we heard earlier and in deciding the content of the licence is a more effective the detailed and considered scrutiny of legislation that way to protect the interests of both present and future we are undertaking now. passengers. If Parliament chooses to use the legislation I also very much welcome the words of support that to hard-code certain points into licences that would the shadow Minister has expressed—both today and constrain the regulator’s freedom to decide what priority throughout the scrutiny of the Bill—for the broad should be afforded to different passenger concerns and thrust of the framework put before the House. This is a what costs should be allowed for the delivery of competing Bill that started its life under the previous Administration, consumer priorities. so although it is being put forward by a coalition The amendments would make the licence system consisting of Conservatives and Lib Dems, it owes unbalanced because there is a wide range of different much to our Labour predecessors. That degree of cross- issues that passengers care about. Moreover, a prescriptive party involvement has strengthened the Bill, as have the approach in the Bill is likely to make it more difficult for extensive consultation done by the previous Government the regulator to adapt its approach to the changing and the further work with stakeholders done by the concerns of passengers. If we adopted the amendments current Government. we would risk obliging the Civil Aviation Authority to Before I deal with the amendments in detail, I want give greater weight to the factors listed in the amendments to make a general point about the passenger experience. than to matters that might become equally or, indeed, I completely agree that a key aim of the Bill is to ensure more important to passengers in future. that we improve the passenger experience at our regulated I hope that I can provide some reassurance to hon. airports, because it is important both for passengers Members on the matters that they have raised. They can and for our economic competitiveness, the quality of be confident that the CAA would use the new licensing our airports and making passengers the central priority powers proposed under the Bill to address the issues of our regulated airports. That is essential. Although that they have raised in the amendments. As we discussed Opposition Members have expressed concern and called in Committee, in response to a request for advice from for changes in the Bill to reflect that, I hope they will the Secretary of State, the CAA has published an agree that what is already in the Bill will be a significant indicative licence to assist Parliament in its scrutiny of overall improvement on the current system, which essentially the Bill. A copy was sent to the Library and, at the leaves the CAA with few levers at its disposal in the request of the Department for Transport, the draft five-yearly price control process. That process is important, licence includes provisions on operational resilience but the Bill enables the regulator to opt for real-time which, I agree, are crucial for an airport to be effective. regulation, so that it can intervene when passengers need it, in a flexible and targeted way, to address just the The proposals in condition 7 would require the licence sort of issues that so many hon. Members have raised holder to operate the airport efficiently and to use its today. Although we may differ on the precise drafting of best endeavours to minimise any detriment to passengers the Bill on some issues, I hope that we can uniformly arising from disruption. It would also require the airport agree that it will be a significant step towards achieving to draw up, consult on and gain the CAA’s approval for a better experience for passengers at our airports. an annual resilience plan setting out how it would secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. Let me deal first with the amendments; I will come to The licence holder would then be obliged to comply the new clause in a moment. There can be no doubt with commitments it made in its resilience plan. I hope about the importance of these issues, whether it is that reassures hon. Members, including the hon. Member baggage handling or the protection and safeguarding of for Bolton West (Julie Hilling). passengers in the event of disruption. I have huge sympathy with all the passengers who were subjected to hassle and inconvenience during the various incidents Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Will the outlined by hon. Members today. It is clear that the Minister confirm that if the amendments are not accepted, aviation sector as a whole needs effective means to deal the current insufficient resilience safeguards might be with passenger welfare during such incidents. The hon. something dealt with in a licence issued by the CAA? Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) gave us a timely reminder that this is not just a matter Mrs Villiers: If I understand the hon. Gentleman for airports, but that airlines have a number of important correctly, yes, it is clear that the Bill provides the CAA and legally binding duties in respect of passenger welfare. with flexibility to include provisions in the licence on However, it is clear that airports have an important role baggage handling and passenger welfare. Our rejection to play as well. of the amendments should not be taken as an indication 995 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 996

[Mrs Villiers] Mrs Villiers: Whether in our rail system or at our airports, there is a trade-off between capacity and resilience. that matters are not sufficient; it is simply that the Bill If a system is intensively used, it is often more difficult already provides the tools for the CAA to deal with to maintain appropriate reliability, but I pay tribute to those them. the work done at Heathrow in recent years to improve reliability. In my opinion, its record stands up strongly Gavin Shuker: I am extremely grateful to the Minister in comparison with that of its European competitors. for giving way again. She it talking about the provisions On new clause 2, the Government of course agree positively. Is it her view that the CAA should issue that it is hugely important that airlines and airports licences with provisions on those particular points? should be sensitive to the needs of disabled people, and that they comply with the regulation that has been Mrs Villiers: As I believe I said, the previous Secretary introduced to protect the interests of people with disabilities. of State had already indicated to the CAA that resilience I agree about the benefits of publishing information on and passenger welfare were issues that should be addressed compliance with obligations relating to disabled passengers. in the licence. However, I do not support the new clause. My first concern is a practical one, as the provision is Nigel Mills: Something that is missing from the indicative so drafted that it would put the obligation to produce licence is a requirement to measure or try to improve an annual report on the Secretary of State and the CAA people’s experience at border control, although that is jointly. I have significant doubts about linking the CAA understandable, given that it is not within the remit of and the Secretary of State in that way. The aviation the CAA to deal with that. Has the Minister had any regulator and the national enforcement body for European discussions with the Home Office, given the recent aviation consumer legislation are separate from the problems at Heathrow and elsewhere, to see whether Secretary of State in respect of ensuring compliance more data can be published to try to improve that with EU law, and the amendment could be seen to experience? compromise the CAA’s independence in that role. I am concerned, too, about the impact of the provision, and I Mrs Villiers: I am very much aware of my hon. believe that there are effective mechanisms already in Friend’s interest in the UK Border Force, and I shall place to secure the result that it is intended to achieve. come on to those matters. However, on various occasions, The CAA publishes an annual report and corporate I have had discussions with Home Office colleagues on plan, and it makes a considerable amount of consumer those matters. information available on its website. An extra annual report on a specific area of legislation, on top of those Mrs Ellman: On the same topic, how will passport more wide-ranging reports, seems disproportionate. The control matters, which are the responsibility of the CAA is committed to the principles of better regulation, Home Office, be addressed under the licensing regime? and it aims to be as transparent as possible in all its work, including in relation to compliance and the Mrs Villiers: As I shall come on to explain, I do not enforcement of legislation relating to consumers and believe that the licensing regime is an appropriate disabled passengers. mechanism to address issues relating to border controls. Jim Shannon: Further to that point, and to what I The CAA sought initial views from industry in drafting said earlier, I am aware of many people, particularly the indicative licence. However, Parliament has not yet people with disabilities, who are subject to a strip search concluded its consideration of the Bill, so the CAA has every time they go to the airport. Is it necessary to go to not yet begun to consult on proposed licence conditions that extreme every time someone who clearly has a for each airport that will be subject to regulation. Until disability appears at the airport? consultations have taken place no final decisions will be taken about what goes into the licence. However, if the Mrs Villiers: The airports have an important obligation Bill is passed as drafted the CAA will consider the to ensure that all security checks are carried out extent to which it is necessary to include conditions on appropriately, but it is enormously important that they resilience and passenger welfare in the licence. The do so as sensitively as possible, particularly in relation CAA expects activities that may be part of the new to the needs of disabled passengers. I have a great deal licence regime to include taking into account other of sympathy with the point made by the hon. Gentleman. obligations on service quality standards, and the success The CAA continues to develop capacity to help of codes of conduct and voluntary arrangements adopted consumers, and is at an advanced stage of setting up a by the industry. As the body with the relevant operational new consumer advisory panel to act as a critical friend expertise, the CAA is well placed to determine appropriate of the regulator as it proceeds to put the consumer at and effective licence conditions. The amendments could the heart of its regulatory effort. I hope that those undermine our goal of giving the specialist regulator a provisions give the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside flexible toolkit to protect the passenger, so I hope that (Mrs Ellman) the reassurance that she seeks. The new the Opposition will not press them to a vote. consumer panel, which will replace the Air Transport Users Council, is a step in the right direction. It will Graham Stringer: I am grateful to the Minister for provide the CAA with an important insight into how it giving way. As ever, she is generous with her time in can best serve the consumer’s interest. It will have answering questions. My question is slightly rhetorical. internal independence from the CAA, which will enable Does she accept it is much more difficult for such it to provide an effective challenge. It will have the scope airports as Heathrow, which operates at 99% capacity, to make public statements and it will publish an annual to be resilient? report. 997 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 998

3pm completely satisfies us that the CAA understands that it The panel has recently appointed a new chair, Mr Keith ought to be part of its requirement to monitor those Richards, who has considerable experience of disabled elements, and that requirement should therefore be part air passenger issues, having been chair of the aviation of the licence. Given the experience of recent years, we working group of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory do not believe that our proposal would be over-burdensome Committee for many years, as well as the former head in terms of bureaucracy or application. It should therefore of consumer affairs at the Association of British Travel be incorporated into the Bill. We will seek leave to Agents. Clearly, the CAA and the new panel chair will withdraw new clause 2, but we are unconvinced that need time to develop their relationship, but it would not the Minister has given us adequate reassurance on be unreasonable to suppose that the passenger experience amendment 9, so we shall take the view of the House on of disabled people at airports and on planes would be that at the appropriate time. of considerable interest to the new chair. I suggest that Clause, by leave, withdrawn. it would be better to allow the new CAA consumer panel to have the space to develop, and to determine New Clause 3 how it will go about its work and how best it can support and inform passengers, rather than to impose RISK-BASED AVIATION SECURITY REGIME an obligation along the lines set out in the new clause. ‘(1) The Secretary of State may direct the operators of airport The Select Committee Chairman asked how licence areas to implement an outcomes-focused, risk-based aviation conditions would be enforced. That is set out in clauses 31 security regime to govern the exercise of their functions in to 47. They include measures on enforcement orders, relation to aviation security. which could require a licence holder to take action to (2) When making directions under this section, the Secretary comply with a condition. Penalties may also be imposed. of State must by order set out the framework for the introduction As I have mentioned, licence conditions will be consulted of the outcomes-focused, risk-based aviation security regime. on in due course. (3) An order under this section must be approved by a In response to the points made about the UK Border resolution of each House of Parliament.’.—(John Woodcock.) Force, I fully agree on the importance of ensuring Brought up, and read the First time. efficiency at our borders. This is a matter that the Home Office and the UKBF take very seriously. Hon. Members John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): who attended the Committee debates will recall the list I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. of actions that I set out, and my describing how new Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it technology and reformed working practices were being will be convenient to discuss the following: deployed to improve efficiency at our borders. However, I cannot accept that a system designed for the economic Amendment 11, page 49, line 31, Clause 80, at end regulation of airports would be appropriate for the insert— regulation of the activities of the UKBF. The UKBF is ‘(2A) The CAA may also provide advice and assistance to such accountable to Ministers and, through them, to Parliament. persons in connection with security checks performed on users of That is the appropriate way to hold it to account, and civil air services who have religious clothing requirements in order that their dignity be maintained without compromising the we do not believe that the UKBF should be included in rigour of those security checks.’. the Bill in that context. Amendment 13, page 51, line 10, Clause 82, at end I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Amber insert— Valley (Nigel Mills) that I have engaged regularly with colleagues in the Home Office on the importance of ‘(3A) Before making a scheme under this section the Secretary of State must review the impact of such transfers on the security efficiency at our borders. I will continue to do so. With functions of the CAA.’. that, I must ask the House to oppose the new clause. Government amendments 17 and 18. Jim Fitzpatrick: Those who have been listening to the John Woodcock: I am pleased to have the opportunity debate will realise that the Minister and I are not a to raise a number of issues relating to aviation security. million miles apart on the new clause and the amendments. This is an immensely important subject, and one on Clearly, we have the joint objective of improving and which the Bill before us has something to say, but we protecting the passenger experience. However, as the believe that additional safeguards are strongly in the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) said, the public interest. There are questions that my hon. Friend UK Border Agency and UK Border Force experience the shadow Secretary of State raised on Second Reading, has not improved over the past few months and years. I and that I and other Labour Members raised in Committee, recognise that that is a Home Office matter and is not to which we have not yet had satisfactory answers. We covered by the amendments, but we accept that clauses believe that this proposal provides an opportunity for 83 and 84, which cover the CAA’s requirement to procure increased safeguards and scrutiny, and that is why we information and publish the data on the passenger seek to amend the Bill today. experience, could deal with the matters that we have The UK has a relatively strong record on aviation raised in new clause 2 and in amendments 8 and 10. security. The current arrangements have evolved to My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton meet the threats that have faced the UK from Lockerbie (Graham Stringer) said in an intervention on the Minister onwards, through the various plots that have emerged that resilience was absolutely critical at airports such as since the 9/11 terrorist attacks. As terrorists have increased Heathrow that operate at 99% capacity. The CAA has the sophistication of their efforts to cause death, destruction published the indicative licence—a copy is in the Library and disruption, so the UK aviation security system has, of the House—and it incorporates a requirement to generally, shown an ability to adapt and stay one step address resilience and passenger welfare plans. That ahead. 999 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1000

[John Woodcock] blanket approach. As my hon. Friend says, that may well be changing. Through the new clause, we seek to The Bill proposes a major change in the security require parliamentary scrutiny and approval before regime, shifting responsibility for overseeing security Ministers are permitted to undertake what would be arrangements from the Department for Transport to one of the most significant reforms to aviation security the Civil Aviation Authority. A number of issues flow in the past two decades. from that. The first involves staffing. Although the In Committee, the Minister suggested that Labour move has broadly been welcomed by the industry, we Members have set our face against moving towards a raised concerns in Committee regarding the transfer of risk-based approach. That is not the case. We simply specialist security staff from the Department for Transport believe that any such move is serious enough to require to the CAA. The Minister has not yet fully addressed parliamentary scrutiny—at the point and in the those concerns, but I hope that she will do so shortly. circumstances where the Government seek to make it. Under the terms of the Bill, 85 members of staff will be The Government’s impact assessment predicts significant transferred from the Department for Transport to the reductions in regulation and costs. If they were to CAA. There is concern that some will choose not to emerge in practice, they would, of course, be welcome— transfer, and will instead leave public service. That provided they did not result in security being compromised. could represent a serious loss of expertise in an area There is support for such a reform from airlines and where finding suitable replacements could be difficult. airport operators, and we have listened carefully to their To ensure the security of our airports and planes, we opinions. need to retain that experience. On Second Reading, the shadow Secretary of State Graham Stringer: My hon. Friend accurately relates asked the Government to consider seconding at least what the Government’s regulatory impact statement some staff, rather than transferring them. The Transport says. Will he acknowledge that, as we debated in Committee, Committee has also made that recommendation. In Manchester and other airports strongly dispute those Committee, the Minister told us that it was possible figures and believe that there will be a huge increase in that some staff would be seconded. Our amendment 13 the regulatory burden on airports? would require the Secretary of State to assess the impact of staff transfers before she gave the go-ahead to move John Woodcock: My hon. Friend raises a good point responsibilities to the CAA. I hope that the Minister and accurately reflects some of the concerns that cast will take this opportunity to inform the House of the doubt on the impact assessment, which I know will have Government’s current position on secondments, and to been thoroughly engaged in and scrutinised by Ministers tell us whether they have got beyond the stage of simply and others across the whole Department, as it is now in hoping that staff will not walk away. Whitehall. There was much debate in Committee over We have also tabled new clause 3, because we again whether the assessment thus far made presents an accurate want to give the Government the opportunity, which picture. they passed up in Committee, to subject to parliamentary On an issue that is literally a matter of life and death, scrutiny their proposed shift to an outcome-focused, it would be deeply irresponsible to make such a major risk-based approach to aviation security. Without our decision on the grounds of cost and regulatory burden new clause, the move to risk-based security would not alone. Ministers must make it clear how such a move be mentioned in the Bill at all. We should be clear about would enhance Britain’s capacity to keep aviation secure. what the reform will entail. Under the Government’s proposed new security regime, rather than directing In their impact assessment, Ministers have argued specific measures that airports must undertake in order that a move to a risk-based regime is consistent with the to maintain security, Ministers will instead specify a principles of better regulation. The drive to improve number of key risks that need to be mitigated. It will and lessen regulatory burdens, where appropriate, is then be for the airports themselves to undertake their one that we pioneered in government and continue to own risk assessment. They will be tasked with analysing support now. However, moving away from the current their local vulnerabilities, and with designing and “direct and inspect” regime for aviation should not implementing appropriate mitigating measures. I know automatically follow from that. Requiring specific that the Minister will agree that this represents a major parliamentary approval for this reform would give Members change to the UK’s aviation security regime. the opportunity for more detailed probing of some of the claims made by Ministers for this change, and how Gavin Shuker: My hon. Friend presents a picture of they would fit with EU directions at the time the change changing security regimes under this Government, but is proposed. does he accept that there are also changes coming In Committee, we did indeed question the reliability through from Europe, particularly on issues such as of the predicted costs of the reforms—supposedly liquids? Is not the best way of looking at security and £23.7 million over 10 years. Parliament should have the exercising correct parliamentary oversight of it to look opportunity to consider the reliability of those figures at the issues in more detail as the picture becomes in light of consultation responses. Furthermore, adopting clearer after the Bill has been introduced— exactly as a risk-based approach will inevitably create variation the new clause outlines? within security procedures adopted at different airports— again a major step change from the present. John Woodcock: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and I intend to touch on Europe shortly. Jim Shannon: One thing brought to my and perhaps Carrying out such an approach presents a challenge others’ attention is the different focus on security at to the industry. Directions from Europe, with which any different airports. Security might be frustrating for some, UK regime will have to comply, usually mandate a but it is necessary for us all. Does the hon. Gentleman 1001 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1002 feel that with the legislative changes ahead, the focus on they self-assess their risk to be low. Those intent on security will be similar across all the airports, which is doing us harm will always look for opportunities. We vital? currently see that on our television screens daily in the testimony from Oslo. We know from bitter experience that Britain is a nation with a heightened risk of terrorist 3.15 pm attack. There can be no grounds for complacency, and I John Woodcock: Of course the aim of the Government’s know the Minister agrees. reforms is to have a similar focus on security. It might be We also need real consideration of the ability of a carried out in different ways, but it will maintain the risk-based system to implement the necessary response same effect—that we keep the country and our passengers to specific and sudden threats, such as the example of secure. The cause of our questioning these measures the liquid bomb plot in the summer of 2006. The and of our seeking extra scrutiny of the process is that discovery of this credible threat led Ministers to take the Government have not yet been able adequately to the decision to ban liquids, and for a while most hand make the case that that effect will follow. luggage, from flights to and from the UK. There is no suggestion that Ministers would lose the ability to take Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): As a such steps in an emergency if they considered that to be regular traveller, like my friend from Northern Ireland, necessary, but questions do arise about whether the the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I ability of airports to carry out such emergency procedures know that the inefficiencies of the service are such that might be hindered by their abandonment of uniform there is a crying need for a universal approach to security provision. If each of more than 60 airports security.In circumstances where the airport that passengers in the UK operates its own security regime, how go through has a different regime in place, should not straightforward will it be to ensure that emergency the regulation be attached to the idea of having uniform measures are adopted with uniformity, rigour and speed security across the whole of the airport system of the should circumstances render that appropriate? United Kingdom? Major changes in aviation security policy cannot be undertaken lightly. I know that the Minister will cite the John Woodcock: My hon. Friend has a lot of experience broad support of airlines and airports for the proposed in this matter. One issue that the Government have not shift, but it would be wrong if this were Parliament’s yet set out—and if they do not accept the new clause, only opportunity to debate such a major change in the they might not be required to do so before the House—is context of an Opposition amendment, and to seek how the changes they seek to implement will not lead to ministerial assurances. increased fragmentation and a potentially less effective system as well as a more burdensome one for passengers. The Minister will, I am sure, agree that cost and the principle of lessening regulation are not in themselves Nigel Mills: But would the hon. Gentleman not accept sufficient justifications for a root-and-branch reform of that having every airport doing exactly the same thing aviation security. The public rightly expect their elected all the time might be quite risky and that we might be representatives to maintain their security and safety in better off having airports doing things a little differently, the skies. Ministers are proposing not a mere technical using different processes and techniques, which would change, but a major overhaul. New clause 3 would make it harder for people trying to break the system to require them to explain their proposals to both Houses, know exactly what they will be subjected to? and to secure approval for a change when they wish to make it. I urge Members to support this extra safeguard. John Woodcock: As I have said, we have not set our I want to say a little about amendment 11. The face against the idea of a risk-based approach, but the subject of ensuring the dignity of passengers with specific Government have not yet done enough to set out how it religious clothing requirements was touched on in would work in practice or how it would fit in with a Committee, and I am pleased that we have an opportunity potentially conflicting or contradictory approach from to debate improvements now. I am well aware that the Europe. Ministers are not saying that they want to subject has been of particular concern to the Sikh move to this approach now; they say they want the community, and that Members on both sides of the freedom to do so at some point in the future. At this House have pushed for guarantees of better treatment stage, we do not know what the regime emanating from for their constituents. I am particularly grateful for the Europe will be. If the Government seek to press ahead way in which my right hon. Friend the Member for with such a move, it is right to debate and scrutinise it at Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), my hon. the time it comes into force when we should know what Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East the European regime is likely to be. That is better than it (Emma Reynolds) and my right hon. Friend the Member going forward without scrutiny, which has been the for Warley (Mr Spellar) have pursued the issue in recent position up to now. I hope that the Minister will seek to months. change what has been her preferred option. Aviation security is always paramount, and we make Those who seek to disrupt, maim and kill users of air that clear in the amendment, but we believe that it is transport and innocent people on the ground are constantly possible for a rigorous security regime to exist alongside testing the defences that the country has put up. That is dignity for passengers with specific religious clothing why we need Ministers to explain to this House the requirements. The way in which security staff treat the basis for their confidence in individual airports’ ability Sikh turban is a particularly good example. In 2010, the to assess and counteract risks adequately. In moving European Commission introduced requirements for away from the current one-size-fits-all approach to security, religious headwear to be subject to manual searches. It we cannot permit there to develop a soft underbelly of has been suggested that, given that the UK is the only smaller airports, where defences are lowered because EU member state with a substantial Sikh community, 1003 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1004

[John Woodcock] John Woodcock: I believe so. That is why it is so important for our amendment to be accepted, and for Europe failed to understand the specific sensitivities of the Minister to provide substantive reassurances. the turban: that it should not be touched by another person, and that its removal should not be required. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): As my hon. Friend The UK reached an agreement with the Commission has pointed out, the UK, for historic reasons, has the enabling airports to opt into a trial allowing the swabbing largest Sikh community. That confers a particular of turbans for explosive residues, a compromise that responsibility on Ministers and officials in the Department was broadly welcomed by the Sikh community. However, for Transport to ensure that these sensitivities are understood a number of UK airports have chosen not to opt into in European discussions. Does my hon. Friend think the trial, which has caused significant distress and anger that the passing of the amendment would reinforce among Sikhs. We want to see a more consistent approach their ability to ensure, in such discussions, that other which would ensure that people with specific religious countries with less experience of the issue appreciate its requirements, whatever their faith, are treated with dignity. significance?

Gavin Shuker: My hon. Friend is making some John Woodcock: My right hon. Friend is absolutely compelling observations about the Sikh community right. Passing the amendment would send a strong and security, with which I entirely agree. Does he agree signal to our European neighbours that the UK attaches with me that—as is demonstrated by, for example, great importance to the issue, and would empower our 1970s legislation on motor cycle helmets—political Ministers and officials to go out to Europe and secure leadership is sometimes required to bring about action the necessary safeguards. on issues that are vital to communities represented in Our amendment seeks to write into law the role of constituencies throughout the House, and that bureaucrats the CAA in providing airports with advice and assistance may not always be able to make the necessary judgments? on ensuring that dignity is maintained. Any move to a risk-based system reducing the uniformity of security John Woodcock: As ever, my hon. Friend has made provision between airports would make that all the an excellent point, and the amendment presents an more important. I hope that the amendment will be opportunity for such leadership to be shown. supported by Members throughout the House. If our aviation security regime is to command the confidence Mrs Villiers: Perhaps I can illustrate that by reminding of all communities in this country, we must do more to the House that as soon as the problem began to emerge, ensure that they can be certain of being treated at all when the new EU rules were introduced, the former times with fairness, dignity and respect. This is a simple Secretary of State for Transport instructed airports to amendment, which I believe will help to achieve exactly stop applying the EU rules and revert to the old rules that. until a trial was developed. He took decisive political leadership then, and we will continue to adopt that Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): On a approach. point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have heard today that the Deputy Prime Minister may be planning to John Woodcock: The Minister is right to point out visit my constituency. That has caused me to make that action has been taken in this regard. The point that various inquiries. I began by ringing the Deputy Prime we are making today, with which I hope she will agree, Minister’s departmental office and I was told that if he is that some airports are still not applying sensitivity as is visiting Hull East tomorrow, it will not be on ministerial we would wish them to do. That remains an issue, but duties. I then received a phone call from Lib Dem HQ, we now have an opportunity to do something about it. telling me that they were very sorry and that there had been some sort of mistake as the Deputy Prime Minister Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): will, indeed, be in my constituency tomorrow. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising an issue which I think is understood by Members on both sides Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): This is a political of the House. On Sunday a constituent told me that, at point. a European airport, her husband had been asked to remove his turban in front of others, which caused great Karl Turner: I wonder whether you can advise me on distress to him and his children. What does my hon. this matter, Mr Deputy Speaker. Friend think could be done to ensure that people are treated with dignity, not just through processes but Chris Heaton-Harris: The hon. Gentleman is going through staff training and the increasing of awareness? on a bit.

John Woodcock: Training is an excellent example. We Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. believe that the amendment would empower and encourage Mr Heaton-Harris, you should know much better, as the Civil Aviation Authority to take the necessary action you have many years of experience in Europe in addition in its regulatory role. Too often we find that airports are to your time as a Member of this House. I am sure the lacking in this regard, owing mostly to ignorance. point of order is coming to an end, and when it does I shall give a quick ruling. Gavin Shuker: My hon. Friend is being extremely generous in giving way. Can he confirm that if new Karl Turner: I am always very glad to welcome the clause 3 and amendment 11 and were not passed today, Deputy Prime Minister to Hull East. Indeed, if he is the House would have no further opportunity to express visiting in order to campaign, I am sure he will do very its views about the security regime in relation to particular well for the Labour party. What is the convention of items of religious headwear? this House, however? 1005 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1006

Mr Deputy Speaker: Let me say that it is a customary Graham Stringer: I wish to make one general point courtesy for any Member visiting another Member’s and two specific ones. The Minister will know that constituency to inform them of that visit. There may although I accept the basic thrust of the Bill, I have have been an oversight in this instance, and I am sure never accepted the regulatory impact assessment and I that that is now in the process of being corrected, believe that, throughout the Bill, extra burdens are perhaps via the Deputy Prime Minister’s political office, being introduced for the aviation sector. I have been and that the hon. Gentleman will be contacted sooner surprised and disappointed that she, as a Conservative rather than later. Minister, has not explored more of the market-based solutions to some of these problems. As my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and 3.30 pm Furness (John Woodcock) said, any assessment of the Mr Spellar: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. security costs is unlikely to be accurate, because many I have huge regard for your qualities, and the abilities of the security regulations will be made at the European you bring to your office. I was therefore astonished at level. Making any such assessment is always going to be the recent intervention by the hon. Member for Daventry difficult, but it is close to impossible in this case. I am (Chris Heaton-Harris), seeming to imply that you would not going to repeat the discussion that we had in not know whether a Member was in order. I hope the Committee, but I will say that Manchester airport is hon. Gentleman realises that, and that in future he will very concerned that the very expensive scanners that it treat your office, Mr Deputy Speaker—and, indeed, has put in place may be outlawed by the new European yourself—with greater respect. regulations. That is the background to my position; I am unconvinced by the Government’s figures. The first of my two specific points relates to security Mr Deputy Speaker: I am sure we can now make and follows on from what my hon. Friend the Member good progress. for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) said. I am firmly of the school, particularly on security, that thinks, “If it Mrs Ellman: Security was one area on which the ain’t broke, why try to fix it?” There is no evidence to Select Committee expressed concerns and raised questions. suggest that TRANSEC is not doing a good job. It is Some of those concerns are touched upon in some of integrated with other security services and, more the amendments. The change in security arrangements— importantly, for transport matters it is integrated with responsibility in part moving from the Department to other transport areas apart from aviation. In short, it is the CAA—is linked to a change to an outcome-focused, doing a good job, and it seems to me that the real risk-assessment regime, but that basic change of policy motive—the real driver—for moving security on to has not been fully debated. The Committee did not airports is primarily cost. That is not a good reason, address the subject in depth; instead, we looked at particularly given that, as my hon. Friend the Member certain specific issues, which are in the Bill. for Liverpool, Riverside said, this will not have received The shift in responsibility from the Department to the scrutiny that it deserves before the Bill goes through. the CAA will result in increased costs to the industry. Why take a risk? Why stand a chance of losing experienced While industry generally supports the changes in the and well-qualified members of TRANSEC, who may Bill, it is concerned about costs. It has been stated that not want to move into airports? This proposal is unnecessary the cost will be £5 million a year, but I understand that, and the justification for it is weak. in fact, the figure could be a great deal higher. I come to my second and final point. The Minister Another issue is how the division of responsibilities will recall that when I asked her in Committee whether will operate in practice. Under the proposed changes, other airports in the European Union had the costs of the Secretary of State is to have responsibility for policy their security paid for by their Governments, she said and the CAA is to have responsibility for operational that she thought they did. She then wrote to me and matters, but it is unclear how that division will be made said something, and I followed it up with a parliamentary and how that would operate, particularly in emergency question, which she was good enough to answer fairly situations when swift decisions may be required. quickly. Her response showed that either she was not telling me—I do not believe that she would do that; I That issue is linked to the concern we expressed am sure that if she knew, she would tell me and other about staffing, and the possibility of staff in the Department Members of the House—or, as I think, the Department who have expertise in this area not moving to the CAA did not know which countries and which airports paid and therefore not being available to deploy their expertise for their security and which did not. where and when it is most needed. We have not received So not only are we being driven by cost, with a lack of any clear answers on that. We suggested there might be scrutiny, to change a security system that works, but, as secondments. I understand that the Department is not with other parts of the Bill, that is going to put a burden very supportive of that idea, and does not accept that it on UK airports that is not shared by some of their may solve the problem. We remain concerned about this continental competitors. We know that the larger airports possible loss of expertise. in this country—this does not apply to the tiny airports— I understand that the CAA will be undertaking its such as Stansted, Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester, Glasgow new responsibilities by 2014. That is not a long time in and Birmingham, and possibly some others, are competing the future. It is important that the issues I have raised as hubs for traffic throughout Europe, particularly for are addressed. There is also the question of whether the incoming traffic. Yet the Minister is unable to tell us, move to an outcome-focused, risk-assessment approach after a long debate in Committee and after a parliamentary will, in fact, maintain—or, indeed, increase—vital levels question, whether we are being put at a competitive of security. disadvantage, because she does not know which of 1007 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1008

[Graham Stringer] motorcycle, the right of bus drivers to wear them or the right of serving police officers to wear them. We have those airports have their security paid for by their been through the arguments time and time again and Governments. So I would like her to answer as thoroughly different UK Governments have proven to be responsive as she can on this matter. I do not believe that the case to the concerns, which has enabled us to reach an has been fully made, and I do not believe that the accommodation. As my Sikh constituents often say to impact on the competitiveness and success of our airports me, if wearing a turban was good enough to fight in the has been judged properly and accurately. trenches, why is it not good enough to be worn in other walks of life? Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): The flexibility that the UK has shown through the I want to say a few things in support of amendment 11 trial is to be commended. I am not saying that the trial on security checks. As my hon. Friend the Member for is perfect. As my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock)said, the amendment and Furness said, it has not been implemented everywhere. calls for maintaining the rigour of those security checks Has the Minister received representations about problems while carrying them out in a manner that preserves in airports that are not taking part in the trial? Importantly, religious dignity. Obviously, we need strong security at the fact that the Minister has written to Transport our airports—of that there is no doubt. The terrorism Ministers in other EU member states to outline the threat is very real—we have had the shoe bomber and British approach has been a good initiative, but problems we have had the underpants bomber—and the travelling remain, especially outside the UK. We have had a public expect the Government and the airport authorities number of Sikh constituents reporting aggressive and to do all that they can to ensure their safety. It is highly distressing searches, particularly at Italian airports, therefore not a surprise that security is a high concern in which have shown little regard for religious dignity. the Bill and a strong concern at a European level. Some of us have made representations to the Italian I and a number of other MPs who have large numbers embassy about those. of Sikh constituents have had many representations about the matter over the past year or so. In particular, 3.45 pm we received representations about the way in which new European rules were being implemented, a concern that Our security regime must work with our population. focused on the question of the physical searching of the It must be compatible with the free movement of people, turban, or, as Sikhs call it, the dastaar. I believe that the which is one of the founding principles of the European Sikh community, like any other part of the UK, accepts Union, and if a section of our population feel that they the need for strong security and understands that there simply cannot travel, we should be highly concerned. If is a terrorist threat, but it wants security to be implemented we have ill thought-out regulations, which do not command in a way that maintains religious dignity, which is what support and simply restrict the movement of people, I amendment 11 calls for. do not believe that that enhances security. I thank the Minister for listening to the representations I and my hon. Friends are not arguing in any way for from MPs and organisations representing the Sikh a diminution of security at our airports. As I said at the community on this issue. As she said in her intervention start of my speech, such security is a very important a few moments ago, the Department for Transport, in requirement, and the terrorist threat is real and apparent response to those concerns when they were at their to us all. We are arguing for a regime that takes into height, organised a trial using swab and wand technology account the reality of the UK today and the reality of at our airports. That trial is still in progress. I believe who makes up our population. We are arguing for the that it was due to finish this summer and I want to ask UK Government to use their influence to try to convince her a few questions. Following the transfer of responsibility the European Commission and other member states to for some of these matters from the Department for look at the approach that we have adopted and, importantly, Transport to the Civil Aviation Authority, how will to consider the results of the trial that we have carried MPs make representations on such issues in the future? out. I very much hope that that trial shows that there It is important for us to have direct access to Ministers has not been a diminution of security with the approach and officials in the Department for Transport; will we that the Minister has authorised in the airports. In that still be able to reflect the views of our constituents in the way, we can have security with consent and we can same way under the Bill? maintain freedom of movement for every part of our community. That is an aim that we should support, and Will the Minister also tell the House what will happen that is precisely the aim of amendment 11. when the trial involving the swab and wand technology comes to an end? Will there be a formal report or a Julie Hilling: I start by expressing concern about the statement to the House in written or oral form about “user pays” principle. We do not apply that to the police how that trial has gone? Importantly, do the UK or other safety and security issues and services. I will Government intend to report the results to the European expand on that in a moment, but first I want to express Commission, which drafted the new rules in the first my concern about the outcome-focused, risk-based place? approach to security. The terrorist has only got to get My right hon. Friend the Member for Warley through once; we have to be 100% successful at stopping (Mr Spellar) said a few moments ago that the United the terrorist. I am still not convinced that a focus on Kingdom had by far the largest Sikh community in the outcomes will achieve the necessary ends. I therefore European Union. That is true. It also has the longest believe that the Government must be extremely clear experience of having a Sikh community and we have about what they are saying about the risk-based focus. I been through these arguments, whether they are about am still not convinced that just specifying the end result the right of Sikhs to wear their turbans when riding a will be adequate. 1009 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1010

To return to the costs, the Government say that the My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston freedom of airports to devise their own systems could (Seema Malhotra), who is no longer in her place, spoke lead to cost savings, and that worries me hugely. Will about the Sikh gentleman who was asked to remove his that mean that, potentially, airports will be looking at turban. We must ensure that people will not be targeted how they might cut costs, and therefore will cut corners? because of the way they look or because they come I am concerned that some airports might be less rigorous from a certain background. We need to ensure that than others. Our biggest concern in the past few years people are treated the same and that people who meet has been around transatlantic services, which of course certain criteria are the ones who are picked out. have high prestige for the terrorist. However, any attack on any airport or airliner—or, in fact, train, ship or Gavin Shuker: My hon. Friend mentioned the statistics anything else—would be significant and would produce associated with police stop and search. I am unclear that wonderful splash of publicity that terrorists want about the current statistics in relation to people subjected to see. If we do not prescribe what airports should to personal or invasive searches in airports. Does that include in their security services, is there not a risk that not support the case for a full assessment of aviation we shall not be able to monitor them properly? I am security to be carried out by the House through a concerned that some of those smaller airports may then further instrument? become soft targets for terrorists. Julie Hilling: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): When we are looking and I agree with him. at security, we can take no shortcuts whatever. We say, We were told in the Select Committee and in the “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it,” but terrorists spend their Public Bill Committee that risk-based security was based time trying to work the system that they are viewing, so on an analysis of people’s behaviour—how they purchase that approach does not work in security. We have to try tickets, what insurance policies they have, and so on—but and change the system to throw the terrorist. I think the a certain group of people are still more likely to commit hon. Lady probably agrees with me on that. an offence. I hope the Minister can reassure me and colleagues that the proposals will ensure that people are caught and are not able to commit atrocities in our Julie Hilling: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that skies. intervention because I absolutely agree with him. That is why I am very concerned that if cost is a driving force Aside from the race element, there has been an increasing within security, airports may look to see how they can number of complaints from disabled people about how reduce costs rather than, as the hon. Gentleman says, they have been treated at airports, especially from people continuing to be innovative. As he so rightly says, it is with colostomy bags or other physical attributes, who not enough to shut the stable door after the horse has have been subjected to pat-down searches. Again, we bolted and say, “They got through there but we can stop must consider how to ensure that disabled people are them next time.” We have to stop them the first time—an not discriminated against and that they are treated with incredibly difficult task. no less concern for their dignity than other people, even if that means that they may have to go through another door for certain other investigations. Those investigations Nigel Mills: Will the hon. Lady join me in welcoming must not be intrusive or discriminatory or interfere with the full body scanners that have been installed by people’s dignity. Manchester airport? The evidence is that not only are As we heard, at Manchester a scheme has been in they cheaper to run and much preferred by the passenger place since 2009. Body scanners have been trialled that for being less intrusive—there is no need for the physical use backscatter X-ray technology which does not yet pat-down—but they maintain all the security features. have EU approval. I am informed that the radiation That is the kind of security innovation that we would from the body scanner is equivalent to cruising for two like to see, and it is a crying shame that there is a threat minutes at altitude and that the scanners have been from the European Union that the use of those scanners approved by the Health Protection Agency. However, will not be allowed to continue. when the trial ends in October, unless there is an extension, the airport will not be able to continue using them. Julie Hilling: Clearly, the hon. Gentleman has already The passenger approval rate is 95%. People much seen my speech. I shall go on to talk about Manchester prefer it to the old-fashioned pat-down search, as do airport. security staff, because it avoids the need to touch and We have heard about the profiling of potential offenders. the bending and stretching that they would otherwise I am concerned that people with brown skins are more have to do. Not everybody goes through the body likely than others to be pulled over for more rigorous scanner. Everybody goes through the first security phase, security checks, and I am not yet convinced that that then a door opens and they either go through the body will not occur. We have seen what happened with stop scanner or go straight ahead. The system has worked, and search on the streets. Will that be replicated in our but the concern is that if the EU does not approve it, the airports? The percentage of black and minority ethnic investment will have been wasted. More worryingly, people who are stopped and searched by the police is what incentive will airports have to be innovative in much higher than that for the white population, and the future? As the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) police can argue, as can any security service, that certain suggested, we must continue to ensure that terrorists do people are more likely to be involved in street crime and not find any loopholes in our security system. gang-related violence, but the result is the capturing of On the outcome-focused, risk-based approach, the everybody of a certain colour or ethnicity, which can Minister seems to be saying that the Bill gives airports become very worrying. the chance to innovate and look at other ways of 1011 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1012

[Julie Hilling] The Sikh community have expressed their concerns, particularly about the handling of the turban at airports, reaching the same solution. That approach is not working but throughout these discussions—I was involved as a for Manchester because it will not be able to continue Minister in previous iterations—they have always made using the scanners unless the Government can agree it clear that they fully accept the need for security and, with the EU that the system should continue. Will therefore, ask, “How do we achieve that?” within the airports be less likely to invest their own money? Even if sensitivities of their religion. the Government’s desired outcomes are achieved, a different input method would be used. My worry is that 4pm there is not a clear enough picture for how we achieve My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton the outcome-focused, risk-based approach. South East (Mr McFadden) highlighted how in this Of course, this is a worldwide issue. We need to country we have approached the matter intelligently, ensure that passengers returning to and departing from and, whether in relation to motorcycles, the police, the the UK have stringent security checks. Whether across Army or a number of other areas, we have obtained an the European Union or globally, we need systems in accommodation at the same time as maintaining a place that we can all live and work with. I hope that the necessary and appropriate standard. Wand and swab Minister will return to the issue. As I have said, I am not technology has also been mentioned, and that would convinced that an outcome-focused, risk-based approach enable us to achieve exactly the same position—achieving will allow innovation and ensure that our airports all and maintaining not only security but a sensitive approach. have the same level of security. The Department’s officials have a long history of wanting trials and experiments to go on for far too Finally, I want to talk about the staff transfer issue. long—we saw it with hard-shoulder running—but, if As hon. Friends have said, the trade unions, the Transport the current trials are showing a positive outcome, I Committee and the Public Bill Committee have all hope that we can report on them early and look at any expressed concerns about losing expertise through the necessary roll-out. transfer of staff from the Department to the CAA and fear that current employees will look for other opportunities I recognise the particular difficulties that we face, in the civil service. The Under-Secretary of State for however, and they have been alluded to in other Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), contributions. In European countries with relatively wrote to me on that point and stated that the Department small Sikh populations, the community’s concerns do could look at how secondments might be used but was not register, so there is a particular responsibility on this committed to ensuring that the costs of regulation are country, on its civil servants and on Ministers to be transferred to users and away from taxpayers. alert to that at an early stage. On several occasions, we have had to respond to The Minister also said that seconding Department regulations that have been introduced and, then, to try staff to the CAA, rather than transferring them with a and unravel them. It is much better if we look at the function, is unlikely to help ensure that experienced issue at an early stage and ensure that any regulations staff remain with the CAA when secondments end. I that are introduced do not impact negatively on the feel that the Minister has missed the point. Many civil community. servants are seconded to outside agencies and the cost is transferred to those agencies. While the function that As I said in an intervention, new clause 3 would not the civil servant fulfilled is transferred, they would stay only provide focus in the Department, but reinforce the with the agency within their role. It is not the case that arguments that it, of necessity, has to have with Commission they would be transferred for a fixed period of time and officials and its counterparts in other countries in order then come back; they are transferred with that function. to ensure that the very real and genuine concerns of this That means that the individual would retain their terms very important community are understood and acted and conditions and, most importantly, their pension upon. rights. We know that that is of great concern to the Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I wish to employees and that that is why we are most likely to lose speak in particular to new clause 3. that expertise, because they say that they do not want to lose those things and so want to stay within the civil We have heard that the Bill will move the responsibility service to look for other opportunities. I hope that the for security functions from the Department for Transport Minister will rethink the decision and not risk the flight to the Civil Aviation Authority, and new clause 3 in of staff and the loss of expertise and, with it, the particular is concerned with another change in aviation resilience in our security system. security: the move from the current direct-and-inspect regime to an outcomes-focused, risk-based one. My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness Mr Spellar As a former Transport Minister, I particularly (John Woodcock) has already told us that Labour does welcome amendment 11. It will also be very much not oppose the principle of a risk-based approach—an welcomed by the Sikh community, especially, and approach to reforming regulation that the party promoted fortuitously, at this time of the Sikh festival of Vaisakhi, in government and continues to support—but the life which Members of Parliament from both sides of the and death nature of aviation security means that such a House celebrated with the community last night here in significant shift must be subject to proper scrutiny to the Palace of Westminster. As colleagues have said, the ensure that the necessary safeguards are in place. Although Sikh community has historically served this country reductions in cost and in regulatory burdens are of very well and is now an enormously important and course welcome, in aviation security, as perhaps in no dynamic part of our community, both in business and other area, such decisions cannot be based solely on in many of the professions. cost and on slimming down regulatory systems. 1013 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1014

The Minister could and should have taken the Gavin Shuker: The hon. Gentleman goes to the heart opportunities presented by the Bill, which includes a of the issue. I agree with him completely that the regime major shift in security procedures, to guarantee that comes in must be as good as, if not better than, the parliamentary scrutiny of the move to a risk-based one it replaces. That is why amendment 13 would require system. Under new clause 3, a resolution to permit the the Secretary of State to carry out a full assessment of move would require the approval of both Houses of the change. I hope that there will be support for that if it Parliament and give us the opportunity to consider is pressed later. several important issues. It would allow us here in The hon. Gentleman’s second point was that change Parliament to consider the reliability of the Government’s is important. Change is essential in aviation security estimated cost of changing the regime, which stands at and in all aspects of security so that we do not get into £23.7 million over 10 years. the pattern of doing the same thing day after day and As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and thereby miss the threats. This country has an advanced Broughton (Graham Stringer), who is no longer in his aviation security regime. There is good partnership place, pointed out, there are already concerns about between airports, the Department for Transport and whether the figure of £23.7 million over three years will the agency within the DFT to ensure that it is implemented. allow for sufficient levels of training and staffing to When I sat on the Transport Committee, I was pleased fulfil security arrangements. to accompany its Chair, who spoke earlier in this debate, The new clause would give Parliament the opportunity to speak to the officials who are charged with our to consider whether there is a risk that removing a aviation security in the run-up to the passage of the one-size-fits-all approach to security creates the possibility legislation. It is clear that we have major expertise in of different levels of security at different airports, and this, which we can share across Europe. the possibility at smaller airports of more lax security The key issue is not whether the Bill will strengthen arrangements, which—ostensibly, given their lower threat or weaken our aviation security, nor what operational level—terrorists could exploit. procedures or equipment we should use, but the question The new clause would give Parliament the opportunity raised by the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart): to consider whether there is a risk that the removal of will the regime be better? At this stage, I do not have the the one-size-fits-all approach to security will create information that is needed to answer that question. different levels of security at different airports, with more More important, I fear that the House has not had an lax security arrangements at smaller airports, which opportunity to explore and answer that question fully. ostensibly have a lower threat level, that could be exploited The new clause seeks to bring about such an opportunity, by terrorists. It would give Parliament the opportunity which is extremely welcome. to consider how well the new aviation security regime will When we consider what the role of the Government cope with emergency situations such as the liquid bomb should be, we see that the public expect there to be a plot of 2006. It would give Parliament the opportunity hierarchy of interventions. There are places where they to consider whether the Civil Aviation Authority has do not want government at all, and there are places demonstrated that it has the ability and resources to where it is very much required. Security and the protection regulate a risk-based system effectively following the of the people are at the top of that hierarchy. Although transfer of security functions under the Bill. the change being made in the Bill is not in any way I repeat that Opposition Members are not against the designed to push the matter off the Secretary of State’s move to an outcomes-focused regime in principle. However, desk, it is a change to a system that has by and large this is a major shift in an area of high risk and it needs worked very well. to be scrutinised properly by Parliament to give confidence The change is very big, however, and as I said in an not only to this House, but, more important, to the intervention, it comes in the context of changes that are airline travelling public. happening around Europe. I visited Brussels two weeks ago to talk about a number of subjects, and the extent Gavin Shuker: It is a pleasure to speak to this group to which the UK has become a tarnished brand was of amendments, because it is probably the most important clear. Ever since the Conservative party moved to a one that we will discuss, other than that on environmental more right-wing grouping within Europe, and more protections, which we will come to later. recently because of the veto that the Prime Minister To put the proposals in context, we are discussing a exercised—although many of us would question what it big shift in aviation security. This is not a peripheral actually stopped—our Government’s ability to influence part of the Bill, but a cornerstone. In Committee, we other national Governments’ policies on various matters had robust debates about how best to arrange aviation that we should agree on as a bloc has been diminished. security. I want to put it on the record that I do not believe that the Government wish to weaken aviation Mrs Villiers: I think the hon. Gentleman would be security. However, their ideological position is that it is interested to know that the last time I attended the important for the Government to withdraw, where possible, Council of Ministers, the Danish presidency proactively and to pass responsibility to other groups, whether they raised the issue of security reform, drawing on a number be agencies, third sector organisations or quangos. of the principles that we were considering in the UK. There is already interest in Europe in what we are Bob Stewart: I apologise for intervening for a second doing, and we as a country can take a leading role in the time and thank the hon. Gentleman. The key thing is debate on how to deliver a much more effective and that, whatever the Government do and whoever is passenger-friendly security regime. responsible for the security at our airports, security is at least as good as it is now. It might be better or even Gavin Shuker: I absolutely agree that we have great different. Difference is a good thing in security, as long expertise to share across Europe, and I am pleased to as the people are well-trained and have decent equipment. hear that the Minister has been making that point in 1015 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1016

[Gavin Shuker] some of whom at best lived on just above the minimum wage at that time, needed to be addressed if we were to Brussels. If she were being charitable, though, I think recruit and retain appropriate staff. she would accept that the atmosphere there has changed. 4.15 pm Mrs Villiers indicated dissent. I support new clause 3, which is why I put my name to it. If we are to get the CAA to discuss a new Gavin Shuker: No, she is not going to be charitable. framework, it needs to include a further discussion not Okay. only about training but about pay. Levels of pay at The Minister rightly gave the example of the ministerial Heathrow are under significant pressure at the moment, team at the Department for Transport having acted in and the workers under the most significant pressure are response to concerns about European guidance on security those in the security industry around Heathrow. I believe related to the Sikh community. The current system that some pay levels are causing problems in respect of allowed her to take that action, but we are about to the recruitment and retention of sufficiently trained change that system. and professional staff. I raise that because we seem to be debating the agenda of work for the CAA as it takes Mrs Villiers: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that over such responsibilities. The new clause would set out the move to an outcomes-focused, risk-based system the framework under which the CAA must introduce its will not change the responsibilities in relation to directions agenda of issues to be addressed, which I welcome. such as that given by the former Secretary of State, my My second point concerns amendment 11, to which right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and my right hon. Friends the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) Weybridge (Mr Hammond). Under the new system, the and for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) Secretary of State will still have the power to make and others spoke. We have been talking about the directions such as he did in relation to the problem of religious clothing issue certainly for the 15 years since I religious headgear. have been in the House and probably for the century that my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley has Gavin Shuker: I am extremely grateful to the Minister been here. Amendment 11 refers to users of the service— for giving me that assurance, but I would like her to give that is completely right and I support the amendment, it to the House in a full debate about aviation security. because it would set religious clothing as a priority for By 7 o’clock tonight, the House will have finished the CAA and its agenda of work—but workers at the Report stage. My party’s Front Benchers made their airport are also affected, in respect of both the turban arguments so forcefully that I am sure they will carry and the kirpan. the day if the amendments are pressed, but if not, we We have come to a clear agreement at Heathrow—I will have to go on assurances from the Government, not congratulate the previous and current Governments on on assessments such as those we call for in the amendments assisting us in achieving a consensus—whereby workers or on positive resolutions of both Houses such as could are not in any way discriminated against for abiding by be made if new clause 3 were accepted. their religious tenets, including by wearing the turban I accept the Minister’s point about leadership and am and the kirpan. There are two problems, however. First, pleased that she is being responsive on the matter, but new security firms that start operating at the airport we must not ignore the fact that a big change is being and in associated industries around the airport have in made to aviation security. The public will want us to be some cases failed to comply with the agreements reached able to account for what we have done. The change at Heathrow. Some bizarre cases in which people have should not be made lightly; it should be made with the been discriminated against have arisen as a result. I full, cross-party support of the House. want to ensure that the CAA recognises that religious clothing requirements affect workers and not just users John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I of the service, as amendment 11 states. apologise for coming into the debate somewhat late. I Secondly, our work force at Heathrow and elsewhere was at a ministerial meeting about issues to do with are naturally mobile—they work at airports across Europe. Heathrow, particularly deportation and the detention We therefore need to tell the CAA that it has a role in centres at Harmondsworth and Colnbrook. leading the debate within Europe and in trying to get I wish to make two simple points. The first is about other sectors together. We have resolved the problem new clause 3 and relates to an issue that has come up with regard to both the turban and kirpan for workers time and again in debates about airport security. Members at Heathrow and elsewhere in the British Isles, but we may recall that I chaired the meetings at Heathrow after can now seek to get a common agreement across Europe. 9/11, at which we brought together all the companies, In that way, Sikh workers will not experience difficulties BAA, Ministers and others. Two things came out of and will not be discriminated against when they start those discussions. One was the need for training, which working at other airports across Europe, as they will in has been mentioned today. There was a lack of training increasing numbers because of their mobility and the at the time, particularly on lower-level perimeter security. integration of companies that operate at more than one The second was the difficulty of recruiting and attracting airport in Europe. sufficiently qualified staff, largely as a result of the low For those reasons, new clause 3 would be incredibly pay levels. We sought to resolve that in discussions with valuable. Amendment 11 would give the appropriate the Government. We wanted not only to bring all the indication to the CAA of the significance of the issue, agencies together to improve training, but to have it not only for hon. Members but, more important, for the recognised that pay levels for security workers at Heathrow, Sikh community of this country. 1017 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1018

Mrs Villiers: Government amendments 17 and 18 have until this summer, and we are currently engaging with not had much attention so far, which is probably a good the EU with a view to continuing to conduct searches in thing for Government amendments. They are minor this way. and technical, and provide for a change to section 12(3) of the Aviation Security Act 1982 by substituting the Mr McFadden: I am grateful to the Minister for words “that Authority”with “the CAA”,thereby removing updating the House on the progress of the trial. Has she any doubt that the CAA is the authority referred to. received any indication from the European Commission Amendment 11 to clause 80 deals with religious about its willingness to adopt this approach more widely, headwear. Committee members will recall that I raised if the UK Government conclude that it does not this matter to illustrate some of the points we were compromise airport security? discussing. I am sure the House will agree on the importance of ensuring that passengers are treated with Mrs Villiers: As I recall, it featured in my discussions respect at all points during their journey through an with Siim Kallas last time I was at the Council of airport and that our system of security checks is operated Ministers. We get the impression that the Commission in a culturally sensitive way. I welcome the work of is interested and has an open mind, and, in respect of colleagues such as my hon. Friend the Member for the immediate prospects, we will consider whether we Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) and the right need to start a further trial when the current one expires hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East in July. We are considering various ways of solving the (Mr McFadden) on this important issue. problem, because it is important that we find a solution that works for the community. Each passenger departing from a UK airport undergoes a standard security process, irrespective of their age, Mr Spellar: Given that the trial must have been gender or ethnic background. The problems highlighted running for about 12 months, will the Minister tell us today relating to religious headwear emerged in April whether it has been a success? Most of the evidence will 2010, when new EU regulations came in that required a have come in the first month. physical hand search to be carried out in relation to turbans. As hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) and the Mrs Villiers: As I have said, we believe that the trial right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East, has been positive so far, but it would not be appropriate have mentioned, physical contact with the turban causes for me to pre-judge the results before they have been considerable distress and offence to Sikhs. That was a properly assessed. concern not only for passengers but for many members By way of further reassurance on this issue, clause 80 of staff, as Heathrow is lucky enough to draw many secures the same outcome as amendment 11, by inserting members of staff from the Sikh community. a new section 21I into the Aviation Security Act 1982, which will require the CAA to provide aviation security The former Secretary of State for Transport, my right advice to airports, airlines and other groups. That would, hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge if the CAA considers it to be appropriate, include (Mr Hammond), acted swiftly and instructed airports advice on security checks on passengers wearing religious to suspend temporarily the application of the new EU clothing. Therefore, although amendment 11 has provided rules. As I mentioned in response to the hon. Member a valuable opportunity for the House to discuss the for Luton South (Gavin Shuker), the ability to take matter, the Bill already provides for the outcome that it such a decision will remain in place under the new seeks. The Government will continue to engage with approach, because the Secretary of State will retain both the Commission and other member states with a responsibility for policy and directions. view to finding a long-term solution to this important Airports were instructed to revert to the old systems issue. while consideration was given to how to resolve the Let me turn to an outcomes-focused risk-based security concerns expressed by the Sikh community. After intensive regime. I welcome the words of support in principle for work over a short period, a trial was put together with that direction of travel which we heard from the hon. the assistance of members of the Sikh community and Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock). We is now under way at almost all the UK’s major airports. have put together a joint Department for Transport-CAA It uses a combination of explosive trace detection and team with the relevant skills and knowledge to develop, hand-held metal detectors as an alternative to a hand trial and implement the new regulatory regime. We have search of the turban. This technology is successfully consulted stakeholders and hosted several interactive deployed in the United States as part of their aviation events with industry to explain our position. A range of security regime. The trial is going well and is being trials will be carried out applying the new regulatory carefully evaluated, and we are keeping the European approach. We are conscious of the importance of retaining Commission up to date with the results. staff, if we can, when the posts are transferred from the I have also written to European aviation and security Department for Transport to the CAA. We are working Ministers to highlight the importance of the issue and to ensure that we retain those staff when the posts are to draw their attention to the trial, conscious of the sort transferred. of points made today about the UK’s responsibility as a The hon. Gentleman has made points about secondments country with a significant Sikh community. We very in the past. We do not see a major difference being much hope that the trial will provide a sound basis of made to the retention of staff when a secondment ends, evidence for the EU in deciding whether it is possible to although we certainly do not rule that out as part of our change the European rules on security to meet the strategy for retaining expertise. To respond to the points concerns of Sikhs and ensure that the rules operate in a that the shadow Minister made, we agree that we are culturally sensitive way. The trial runs for 18 months up talking about a significant change to aviation security. 1019 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1020

[Mrs Villiers] threats—in some cases, within a matter of hours or days. For example, swift action had to be taken in To respond to the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton response to the liquid bomb plot. If it had been necessary (Graham Stringer), we believe that this move could to recall Parliament so that the matters could be debated reduce costs for industry, but that is certainly not the by both Houses it would have been impossible to respond driving factor. The paramount priority must be to effectively. ensure that aviation security remains robust at all times. The House will also recall the printer bomb plot in I believe that moving to a more outcomes-focused and October 2010, when it was necessary to place emergency risk-based approach could well enable us to deliver restrictions on air cargo very swiftly. If the Secretary of higher standards than apply currently, as we will be State had not been able quickly to ban certain consignments, giving the airport industry more opportunity to develop it could have left us exposed to similar attacks. I am sure innovative ways to deliver security outcomes and apply that the Opposition would not want that, so I hope that principles of continuous improvement. We are absolutely they will consider withdrawing the new clause. certain that we must in no way allow the security standards applied currently to slip. We are confident 4.30 pm that that will not happen with an OFRB approach, and we believe that the reforms we are proposing could John Woodcock: In our mind, there is no question at make passengers in the air even more secure than they all that emergency provisions such as those introduced are today. after the liquid bomb plot would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny, so I do not understand why the Minister is Bob Stewart: Training is crucial, and we have to suggesting otherwise. ensure that it is as good as it possibly can be. Speaking as someone who has been involved in such security Mrs Villiers: I am afraid that that is how I interpret matters, I can tell my right hon. Friend that the real the new clause. There would be a serious risk that it problem is that people lose focus if they do the job for a would have that result, although I am pleased that the long time. Training can help with that. We must ensure hon. Gentleman has assured the House that that is not that our training is good and that it includes keeping a the intended outcome. He will appreciate that that focus on the job when it can sometimes become repetitive would be damaging to our efforts to keep people safe. and boring. Gavin Shuker: The new clause states: “An order under this section must be approved by a resolution Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend makes a good point of each House of Parliament. ” with which I completely agree. He also made an important There is nothing in the measure, as far as I can see, that point earlier, which is that some variation in the way would prevent the existing powers of the Secretary of security is delivered in different airports can assist in State “to direct” from being taken away. It is more maintaining the highest standards of security, because about the transition from one regime to another. it injects a further element of unpredictability, which can help us frustrate the evil intentions of those who Mrs Villiers: That may be the Opposition’s intention, would do us harm. but I am advised that the effect could prevent the In addition, we also see an advantage to the aviation Secretary of State from taking swift action on the sort industry of moving to a system that it can run more of plots that I have outlined. efficiently and, we hope, in a more passenger-friendly Turning to amendment 13, clause 82(3) requires the way. When we respond to the consultation on such Secretary of State to consult the CAA before making a security, we intend to provide as much detail as possible transfer scheme. Such a scheme would allow, for example, about how the new approach will work. I cannot support the transfer of relevant staff. I can assure the House the proposal in new clause 3 for the Secretary of State that the Department has begun to work with the CAA to be obliged to require the approval of each House on understanding how the transfer of staff and property before such measures could come into force. I fear that to the regulator might impact on the delivery of the that would slow down reform and could jeopardise our CAA’s functions, whether it is safety, economic regulation ability to respond swiftly to security threats. The Secretary or new security functions. The Government’s priority is of State intends to take forward the reformed approach to ensure that our aviation security remains robust to aviation security under powers in part II of the before, during and after the transfer to the CAA. We Aviation Security Act 1982. have begun work to assess the impact of the transfers, Part II gives the Secretary of State the power to give for example, to ensure that the CAA has access to the directions to industry for the purpose of protecting civil right information and knowledge on aviation security, aviation against acts of violence. The Secretary of State’s and we are looking too at how best to integrate aviation decision-making powers do not require the approval of security in the CAA, including synergies between safety Parliament before they can come into force. Changing and security. The CAA is considering how best to that as proposed by the new clause could damage our manage security at board level, as well as how it can be ability to keep passengers secure. Directions from the most effectively managed at operational level. We remain Secretary of State often contain security-sensitive committed to ensuring that the CAA continues to conduct information which, if widely disclosed, could be used its regulatory functions to a high standard and that it by people who mean to do us harm. Obtaining the fulfils its aviation security functions to an equally high approval of the House via secondary legislation inevitably standard. I therefore urge my colleagues to oppose the takes time, even with the most efficient business managers amendments and new clause, because I do not think in charge of Parliament’s agenda. Aviation directions that they are necessary to deliver the outcomes that they sometimes have to be made quickly to respond to new are intended to secure. 1021 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1022

John Woodcock: I will seek the leave of the House to stop in the amendment look very curious indeed, and withdraw the new clause, but I hope that the Minister we look forward to receiving an explanation of their will continue to look at the staffing issue raised by significance. amendment 13, given our concerns about the potential In Committee, the Minister teased us about our for problems further down the track. The Minister has change of position on the Pilling report and on our given clear reassurances on religious clothing and headwear, support for National Audit Office oversight of the and I hope that the strength of feeling expressed in CAA. We said, in justification, that the world had today’s debate will strengthen her hand in achieving the moved on, and that evidence was coming forward, necessary requirements. particularly from the British Air Transport Association On the issue of the parliamentary scrutiny of risk-based at that time, in respect of the Government’s explanation security, I continue to fail to see how our amendment of the CAA’s audit arrangements. BATA stated that it could hold things up in an emergency, as the Minister in fact involved a normal company audit to ensure that suggests. We will withdraw the new clause, however. I there was no fraud, whereas we were proposing an simply urge the Government to continue to take the NAO audit examination of efficiency and value for issue incredibly seriously, and to consider ways in which money. the House could properly scrutinise the issue, as and Only this week, Members will have seen the when she decides that a move would be appropriate and correspondence from Virgin Atlantic citing the example would enhance security. I beg to ask leave to withdraw of the Financial Services Authority. The CAA will be the clause. run along similar lines to the FSA. Although the NAO Clause, by leave, withdrawn. is tasked with keeping track of taxpayers’ money, it has oversight of the FSA, which receives no income from the taxpayer. The CAA will be in the same position. New Clause 4 There are clear parallels between the two organisations, so why will the NAO not have oversight of the CAA as well?Other industry-funded regulators are subject to ACCOUNTS AND AUDITS NAO oversight, including Ofgem, which is funded by ‘(1) Section 15 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 (Accounts and the energy companies, Ofwat, which is funded by the audit) is amended as follows— water companies, and Ofcom, which is funded by (a) In subsection (1), leave out paragraph (c) and insert— broadcasters, the media and communications providers. “(c) to send copies of the statement of accounts to the We are trying to address that anomaly in new clause 4. Secretary of State and the Comptroller and Auditor Moving on to new clause 5, the Minister stated in General before the end of the November following Committee that she had written to the leadership of the the accounting year to which the statement relates.”. CAA to say that she expected it to (b) In subsection (2), leave out paragraph (a) and insert— “lead the Authority in such a way that it: is run efficiently and “(a) The National Audit Office shall examine, certify and effectively, thereby minimising the cost on the aviation sector, and report on each statement of accounts received under providing value for money”.––[Official Report, Civil Aviation subsection (1) and shall lay copies of the statement of Public Bill Committee, 13 March 2012; c. 344.] accounts and its report thereon before each House of We received evidence at the time, however, from British Parliament.”. Airways, which stated that (2) In the National Audit Act 1983, Schedule 4 (Nationalised “the CAA has scope to make significant improvements in Industries and Other Public Authorities) Part 1, leave out “Civil efficiency”.––[Official Report, Civil Aviation Public Bill Committee, Aviation Authority”.’.—(Jim Fitzpatrick.) 13 March 2012; c. 342.] Brought up, and read the First time. That statement was referring to the CAA before it got its new powers and responsibilities, which placed even Jim Fitzpatrick: I beg to move, That the clause be greater pressure on it. My hon. Friends the Members read a Second time. for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) raised this matter in Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this Committee several times, and they might well try to it will be convenient to discuss the following: catch your eye again today, Madam Deputy Speaker, in New clause 5—CAA general financial duties order to reinforce the point. ‘In section 8 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 (General financial In Committee, the Minister pointed out the technical duties) after subsection (4) insert— flaws in our original amendment, so we have tidied it “(5) It shall be the duty of the CAA to conduct its affairs in up. We have taken her advice and ensured that the new such a manner as to fulfil a general duty of efficiency in the use clauses are more appropriately worded. She also said of its financial resources.”.’. that she would reflect on the matters that we had raised Amendment 2, page 2, line 11, clause 1, after ‘economy’, in Committee, and we would be grateful if she would insert ‘, effectiveness’. share her conclusions with the House today. Amendment 1, page 3, line 8, clause 2, after ‘economy’, insert ‘, effectiveness’. Chris Heaton-Harris: Before I start, may I say in Government amendments 14, 15 and 19. passing how much I admire the rulings of the Chairman of Ways and Means? He is a great gentleman and I Jim Fitzpatrick: I do not expect to detain the House for apologise for having been told off by him earlier. very long on the new clauses, as they are primarily probing, The Minister will know that I raised in Committee but we are interested in Government amendment 19, one point about regulation. As she will recall, I raised which deals with clause 77. The apostrophe and full the concerns of a very big business and a large industry 1023 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1024

[Chris Heaton-Harris] air passengers unless they are unfortunate enough to land on the wrong runway at Heathrow and want to get in my constituency—DHL and the industry trade body, to terminal 4. That fact means that the consumer would the Association of International Courier & Express expect Ofcom, not the CAA, to be the relevant regulator. Services—about the information provisions. I thanked Making the CAA the regulator for the provision of the Minister then and I thank her now for the positive information services in the express sector would be comments she made about the express services sector. confusing, and unlikely to bring any benefits to consumers. As she acknowledged, DHL is a very significant employer I hope that the Minister will comment, will look in my constituency, and obviously a key player in the again at the issue, and will perhaps even consider meeting wider UK exports market. me, along with representatives of the Association of As the Minister knows, the express sector as a whole International Courier & Express Services, to discuss the is broadly supportive of the Bill and wants to work with association’s legitimate concerns. the Government and the Civil Aviation Authority to ensure that the security aspects are implemented effectively 4.45 pm and in consultation with all stakeholders. However, AICES members are concerned that express services Graham Stringer: Amendments 2 and 1—that is the have been incorporated into the information on services order in which they appear on the selection list—may be provisions, which they feel are not appropriate to the considered to be either relatively minor or the most sector. important amendments to the Bill, depending on how First, express services operate in a different and a they are interpreted. very competitive marketplace, and failure to provide the This is the “minor” aspect. I asked in Committee why necessary information to their customers would simply the word “effectiveness”was not included in clause 1(3)(c) result in those customers moving their account. It is a and clause 2(4)(c), along with the words “economy” very fluid market indeed. As the Minister acknowledged and “efficiency”. The Minister’s responses are always in Committee, this is mainly a business-to-business very courteous and comprehensive, but on this occasion, sector rather than a business-to-consumer sector, which unusually, I was not satisfied that there was a good makes it very different from passenger traffic on airlines. reason for the absence of the word “effectiveness”. In consequence, the level of regulation required is also When I was more centrally involved in local government, very different. I know that the Minister has acknowledged we regularly spoke to the Audit Commission. It used to this key difference in the sectors being regulated—between refer to the “three E’s”—effectiveness, efficiency and air passenger traffic and express—and it would be helpful economy—and used to joke that “economy” was usually to know whether she believes that the CAA shares her left out. That is not surprising in view of the dictionary views. definitions of all three words. “Effectiveness” apparently Secondly, as I said in Committee, Ofcom already has means the relevant powers on the provision of information on “to accomplish the purpose, producing expected results.” express services under the enabling provisions of the The meaning of “efficiency” is self-evident: Postal Services Act 2011. I was concerned about a “performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the possible duplication here. The enabling provisions under least waste of time and effort”. section 51 of the 2011 Act could further extend to cover Those are clear and relatively objective terms. “Economic”, under subsection (3)(d) however, is defined as “the information that is to be made available by postal operators “pertaining to the production, distribution, and use of income, to users of their services about service standards and about the wealth, and commodities.” rights of those users”, It is a much more general term, and it is the one that the and under subsection (3)(e) Audit Commission used to say was left out. Why on “anything else appearing to OFCOM to be necessary to secure earth do clauses 1 and 2 not state that the holders of effective protection for those users.” licences should be effective, which is surely very important? That is effectively duplicated in information terms in Although I consider that to be the relatively minor the Bill. Under this particular section, express services aspect of the amendments, it goes to the heart of the constitute postal operators. Bill. As I have said on a number of occasions, although Ofcom has judged that there has been no market the Bill gives the CAA new responsibilities to look after failure in the provision of information and that the the interests of consumers, it does not tell us either how powers in the Act are not required to be used at present. that is to be done or what the consumer’s interests are. They are still there, however, so conferring the CAA The Bill states that the CAA must oversee airports to with the same powers will lead to regulatory duplication. ensure that there is continuity, and that air transport Existing legislation already provides for the required services have regard to “future-proofing” that we talked about so much in “the range, availability, cost and quality of airport operation Committee. services.” Finally, but crucially, the express sector is different That in itself is fair enough, but the Bill does not give from air passenger traffic because the mode of transport the CAA the overarching purpose of improving aviation is not relevant to the consumer. The key factor is the and ensuring that it continues to form a major part of time required to get a package from A to B. How it gets the United Kingdom economy. there is completely irrelevant. Most of the time it will be Our demand for the inclusion of the word “effectiveness” done by air in this particular sector, but sometimes it highlights the strong deficiency in the Bill that we will be done by truck—and sometimes, perhaps, on debated in Committee. No real political controversy is public transport. Obviously, the same cannot be said for involved in changing the nature of the functions of the 1025 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1026

CAA, whether we are talking about the regulation of Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): It is air space or the ensuring of economy and safety. That is absolutely true that Boris Johnson, Mayor of London, not a matter of great debate between the parties. There has always opposed the third runway at Heathrow. I live is a great debate between Members and parties, however, in west London and represent a west London seat, and about how aviation should develop and whether we he is right to do so given the threat a third runway should continue to be a leading country in aviation, and would pose to the health of west Londoners. Ken about whether our economy, which depends on aviation, Livingstone, the Labour party candidate, has also always should be hindered by not having the aviation facilities opposed expansion at Heathrow airport. Indeed, this is we deserve. I could make a very long speech about these one of the few topics on which all three main parties in matters. I shall not do so, but I do want to make a few the London mayoral campaign agree. important points. I believe that many Conservative Members, and many Graham Stringer: The hon. Lady is right in what she members of the Government, want to improve our says, but all three mayoral candidates are wrong on this aviation facilities, including by increasing the capacity matter. of airports in south-east England. Unfortunately however, It is completely legitimate for any constituency MP, they are caught in a situation where the tail is wagging including the Secretary of State, to oppose what they the dog. Indeed, there are two tails. Dogs with two tails think their constituents do not want. However, it is also are usually known to be particularly happy, but not in incumbent on any Government to consider the national this instance. There is the Lib Dem tail, as the Lib Dems interest, not just the interest of people representing west have for historical—and, I think, mistaken—reasons London. Exactly the same argument is used about High always opposed increasing airport capacity in south-east Speed 2, and the analogy is a good one. I chair the England. The Government tail is also being wagged by all-party group on high speed rail, but if somebody was Boris Johnson, current Mayor of London, who believes driving High Speed 2 through my constituency, I would he can only win the mayoral election by opposing the oppose it, because I would like to carry on being an MP expansion of airports within the London system, and and representing my constituents. That is a reasonable by proposing instead an absurd island airport in far east thing for an MP to do, but I also know that HS2 is good London—in the Thames estuary, in fact. That may be for the economy. Similarly, I know that constraining good for his chances in the mayoral election, but it is runway capacity in the south-east is extremely bad for extremely bad for the country. the economy. It will do no good for the environment; it will just strangle the British economy. Mrs Villiers: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government’s policy on airport capacity is not Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): The driven by tails or dogs or anything like that. It is driven hon. Gentleman implies that there may be a tension by an understanding of the importance of ensuring that between a constituency interest and the national interest, aviation has the space to grow, but also that it does so but the Government’s policy and the Conservative party’s within parameters that address the local impacts of policy of being against a third runway at Heathrow aviation, such as aircraft noise and air quality, which, as precedes the previous Secretary of State. It has really I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree, can be corrosive. been this Minister, when in opposition and in her current We also need aviation to play its part in our efforts to role, who has taken on the vested interests and put tackle climate change. Our approach is, and always will forward a policy that protects the environment, as well be, based on a sound and sensible assessment of the as the national interest. I do not believe that there is any evidence on how best to have a growing aviation industry relevant constituency interest here. that also plays its part in addressing its environmental impacts. Graham Stringer: I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, and I agree with him on a number of Graham Stringer: The Minister makes a consistent policies, but he is in error in his understanding of the case on that, but she will not be surprised to learn that I history of the development of the Conservative party’s do not accept it. The noise around airports is diminishing policy. To be fair to the Lib Dems, they have always as planes get quieter, and air quality is regulated by opposed the third runway at Heathrow. The Conservative European regulations, with most of the pollution around party was in favour of it until Boris Johnson thought he airports being caused by cars and other road traffic. had a chance of winning the previous mayoral election— That needs to be dealt with, but the levels are set by that changed its national policy. The Labour party was European regulations, and those levels cannot be surpassed. in favour of a third runway. When the Conservatives Those arguing against increasing airport capacity became the Government, the shadow Secretary of State often say that that will help in our commitments to said that she would change the Labour party’s policy—I reducing carbon dioxide emissions. As we demonstrated do not agree with this, but I can see why she did it—so in Committee however, that is not the case, because as a that there could be a discussion about how to deal with result passengers on intercontinental journeys often the problem facing us. have to fly via other countries, so they have to take off That problem—this is the final point I wanted to twice, which produces extra pollution and extra carbon make—is that Heathrow is losing destinations and business, dioxide. and not just because of the capacity on runways. We If the Government carry through their intention to face at least a double whammy; air passenger duty is put aviation into the European emissions trading scheme, having an effect, too. The situation is directing passengers as with the polluter on the ground, aviation will be dealt to airports in Europe that have added extra runways, with on a Europe-wide basis, so we do not need an extra such as Madrid, to where British Airways has moved domestic policy to address the issue. The Government’s much of its operations, and Charles de Gaulle. The hon. current policy is strangling the British economy. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) was talking 1027 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1028

[Graham Stringer] policies are anti-business and anti-growth. They are damaging the UK economy and they need to change about integrators. The two main centres for freight in them. Changing the wording of the Bill would help. the aviation industry are Brussels and Charles de Gaulle; we have already lost out on those issues. Passengers are Mark Reckless: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. going to Madrid, Charles de Gaulle, Schiphol and Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). Frankfurt, and, increasingly, to Copenhagen, at the expense First, let me respond to what he said about Heathrow of London. That is damaging not only the London and China. We all see the adverts in Westminster tube economy, but the UK regions, because of the decreasing station, but there is a fundamental inconsistency with number of routes from the regional economies into the line being pushed by BAA and the Mayor of London, Heathrow, in particular, and into the whole of the among others, that Heathrow is essential as a hub but south-east system. that we do not have enough point-to-point flights to different places in China. The model used by BA and its Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman has hit on a very oneworld alliance relies not just on Heathrow as a hub pertinent point. Four countries in the world are expanding but on Hong Kong, too. It is deciding that it is more their economies at the moment and doing well: Brazil, effective to use Hong Kong as a hub, for all the reasons Russia, India and China. Is not the hon. Gentleman’s given by the hon. Gentleman and others, and to fly to point that if we want to increase our trading with those all those Chinese cities with greater frequency and four countries, we need better airport contacts? Is that service out of Hong Kong. I do not accept the argument not the very issue on which we seem to be losing out? that a lack of point-to-point flights from Heathrow to cities in China makes the case that Heathrow needs a 5pm third runway to be a hub airport. The very economies Graham Stringer: I could not agree more. Before the of the hub and of the Heathrow and Hong Kong dual debate, I looked up on the internet how many cities in hub model for service for China leads to the system that China have a population of more than 1 million—the we have. size of Birmingham. There are 160 cities that are bigger than or the same size as Birmingham and five cities that Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is making a are bigger than London, three of which are not very very sensible point about where hubs develop in the well known. The biggest, Chongqing, has a population world. Hubs developing in the middle east are doing a of 31.4 million, but how many air routes do we have to similar job in serving parts of China and there are also Chongqing? There are routes to Shanghai from London hubs in south-east Asia. A better measure of the failure but from nowhere else in the UK. The others are of Government policy is the number of airlines that Beijing, Guangzhou—or Canton, as most people would want to get into Heathrow from all parts of the world know it—and Tianjin. Those cities are all bigger than but cannot do so. A number of those airlines, some London and there are very few routes to them. The hon. from China and some from other developing countries Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned India, with large growth rates, have applied but cannot get Brazil, Russia and China. This country wants to be the their aeroplanes into Heathrow. Does he not agree that centre of the financial world through the City of London that is a better measure? and, as Europe gets itself into a mess with deflation, our future must increasingly rely on trading with the Mark Reckless: The reason there is unsatisfied demand growing economies of the world. However, at the same for Heathrow and people who would like to fly from time, we are cutting off our links. there but cannot, is that landing slots at Heathrow are still cheaper than those at other airports and certainly Mrs Villiers: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that cheaper than they could be. BA uses most of those he should not necessarily believe all the propaganda he landing slots, has capitalised the value and does not sell reads in the posters in Westminster tube station. If many of them on, partly to ensure that there is only flights to Hong Kong are taken into account, Heathrow limited competition so it can maximise its profits. I will delivers more services to China than any of its continental return to that point, but I have quite a lot of sympathy rivals. London is one of the best connected cities in the with the hon. Gentleman’s arguments that the regulator world. We have five highly successful airports serving should look to ensure that licence holders—airports—are the south-east, six if we count Southend. effective as well as economic and efficient. I also have considerable sympathy with the shadow Graham Stringer: Since the second world war, as the Minister’s new clauses on National Audit Office oversight. Minister will know, Heathrow has been the largest However, I understand that those are only intended to international airport in the world. Soon it will no longer be probing. I hope that that will also be the case with his be that. It is still bigger than Frankfurt as regards its amendments, because ultimately I trust the Minister on international destinations, but—I do not have the figures this issue. I do so for the ultimate reason that, in so in front of me—the number of destinations served by many areas of public policy one can pretty much know Heathrow has gone from something like 220 to 180. what the policy will be by looking at where the money Increasingly, the passenger numbers are going up because is—where the vested interests lie—and at what the civil larger aeroplanes are going to fewer and fewer destinations. servants are pressing. Too often Ministers merely oversee I wanted to make both that small point about why the that policy solution. In this area I believe that it is the word “effective” is not in the first two clauses and the personal, political intervention of the Minister, both as larger point that I would like not only for the words to shadow Secretary of State in opposition and now as be in the Bill but for there to be an effective aviation Minister responsible for aviation policy, that led to, and policy, which the Government do not have. On this kept, the Conservative policy against a third runway at issue, although not necessarily on others, the Government’s Heathrow. 1029 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1030

Gavin Shuker: Twice now the hon. Gentleman has Heathrow-BAA has carried on raking in that money, referred to the blocking of a third runway as a policy, as even though it is not investing in the third runway that in an aviation policy that could deliver some outcomes. that money was meant to fund. I do not see how that Does he not accept that that is not a policy—it is just makes sense. saying no? Most people refer to the CAA as a good and effective regulator, but how will it remain so? What certainty do Mark Reckless: No. I think we need a basket of we have about that? That is why a role for the NAO, options. I am delighted to hear that at Luton, in the expectations that it should be efficient in its management, hon. Gentleman’s constituency, there are such significant and a role in ensuring the effectiveness of licence holders plans for expansion. At Gatwick, too, there is significant are, in principle, sensible things to ask for. I hope the expansion, even of the one runway, and the possibility Minister, the Department and in due course the CAA of a second runway from 2019. I wonder whether one will listen to Members and ensure that those things option might be rail links between Heathrow and Gatwick happen. and/or Luton, and whether the charges could pay for The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for those. I am interested in hearing about the Northolt Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) about freight transport— options and what the impact might be if Northolt were that the consumer is indifferent to the mechanism used linked in to Heathrow. I very much believe that Birmingham for that freight transport—may also apply to Heathrow. airport, in terms of being half an hour from Old Oak As an economist, my assessment is that the end user, the Common or 40 minutes from Euston on High Speed 2, consumer of flight services through Heathrow, may be can become a very significant player in the south-east indifferent to the level of landing charges to the extent aviation market. that the price of tickets is set by the scarcity and the monopolistic pricing at Heathrow, rather than on the Pat Glass: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? basis of the cost of using Heathrow. Therefore, just as I previously suggested that there might be a great deal of Mark Reckless: I will finish the point, if I may. I do investment in Heathrow, which could be good for consumers not understand why so much aviation demand from the without pushing up prices for those end users, so, if the north and the midlands has to come all the way down to CAA were to be a flabby and inefficient regulator that Heathrow when, perhaps, Birmingham or Luton could was putting its own charges on the industry, it could satisfy much of that. potentially do that without the statutory constraint of acting in the interests of the users of those services. Gavin Shuker: All those potential options with different airports are hugely interesting. Unfortunately, we have We have seen that the scarcity at Heathrow has become not heard from the Government what their policy is—their capitalised in the costs of slots. When they are traded, it strategy. The options have to fit into some kind of can be £5 million or £10 million now per pair of framework, and still as we speak, two years into the take-off and landing slots, to the great benefit potentially term of this Government, none exists. of BA, but to who else’s benefit? That has happened not through a decision of the House, and not even through the development of the common law, but through the Mark Reckless: The policy is for a south-east airports development of European jurisprudence in this area. consultation. The previous Government sought to conduct There is very significant value there. The CAA could such a consultation, and would not even consider as an potentially transfer that value from BA to BAA with option a second runway at Gatwick until I, along with little, if any, impact on the consumer, or it could allow Medway council, Kent county council, the Royal Society for significantly greater investment, or it could be quite for the Protection of Birds and Essex county council, flabby and inefficient or, to the extent that Government backed a judicial review which overturned that policy. policy influences this and we have air passenger duty which is higher for the south-east or particularly higher Pat Glass: Will the hon. Gentleman accept that now for Heathrow, that might raise money to help the only two regional airports in this country have flights Government close the deficit, without having a negative into Heathrow? Therefore, if we are travelling to New impact on the users of Heathrow. All these are significant York, South Africa or Australia from the regions in this points that need to be considered, along with the value country, it is far easier to go to Charles de Gaulle, for money and the effectiveness propositions. Frankfurt or Schiphol. That is not good for Heathrow, it is not good for the British economy and it is certainly I should like to address briefly the issues raised in not good for business in the regions. Government amendment 19 in relation to the market power determination. I support the Bill and the Minister, Mark Reckless: I strongly support our policy of and I will defer to her judgment on this, but I am promoting High Speed 2 for inter-regional transport nervous about the extent to which we are giving power within the UK. I recognise the value of transfer passengers to the CAA to make this market power determination. at Heathrow for the provision of the network it has, but It used to apply to Manchester; it no longer does. I have I do not ultimately see how it is a disaster for the British heard arguments with respect to Stansted and to Gatwick economy if some people from the regions transfer at a as to why it should not apply. The risk with Stansted, I European hub for some flights, rather than always would have thought, is not so much that it would shove coming to Heathrow. What I would like to see at Heathrow up the prices massively, but that Stansted may not be is high value flights that produce the best outcome for competing effectively with Heathrow as it would if it the country as a whole. Having Heathrow operated were under separate ownership. effectively would be very sensible. It has significantly We have just heard comments about flights to Asia increased its landing charges in order to pay for the and emerging markets, but we have recently seen significant third runway and, under the quinquennial review, openings of routes into and out of Gatwick to places 1031 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1032

[Mark Reckless] On Government amendment 19, the intention of clause 77(5) is to exclude persons carrying out exempt such as Vietnam and South Korea. There may be the Crown functions from economic regulation under chapters 1 prospect of significant further movement in that direction. and 3 of the Bill. The Bill already provides that the UK But larger airlines—A380s and so on—currently do not Border Force and the police, who currently carry out have particularly good service at Gatwick, and it is exempt functions on behalf of the Crown, are not difficult for Gatwick to invest to service the A380s and subject to the prohibition on levying charges in clause 3. to have people transferring straight from the plane into Amendment 19 ensures consistency, removing the possibility the terminal, because of the significant cost involved of the CAA being required, in response to a request and the need at least to bring along the current airline under clause 7(2) to make a market power determination users of the airport and the great difficulty of putting in respect of a core airport area operated by a person through the investment if they are fighting it tooth and exercising exempt Crown functions. It also disapplies nail. the requirement under clause 14(4) to treat persons If Gatwick feels that it should invest significant sums carrying out exempt Crown functions as having applied of money in better terminal facilities in order to service for a licence if there is a positive market power the A380s and that type of airline and allow the sorts of determination. routes to high-growth markets in Asia that we so strongly After the excitement of Government amendments, I support, I see no strong reason why it should be prevented now turn to new clause 4, which relates to the National from doing so and charging what the market will bear. I Audit Office. I fully agree with Opposition Front Benchers believe that that could be to the benefit of the consumer. and others about the need for the CAA to be efficient in The CAA might be a good regulator and take that into carrying out its functions, but I am afraid that I am not account, but at least the idea, in principle, of allowing persuaded that the NAO would deliver more effective freer competition and having less regulation and fewer scrutiny than the current mechanisms by which the airports with the market power determination—it is CAA’s functions are audited and scrutinised. only really Heathrow where there is clearly substantial power—might lead to a more competitive system in Moreover, the CAA is overwhelmingly funded by the which Gatwick and Stansted were free in the way aviation industry, whereas the NAO’s role is to scrutinise Manchester now is. I am not certain, but it might do so. public spending on Parliament’s behalf, and the income Under the Bill, it will now fall to the CAA to make that the CAA receives from the industry is not classified as decision, unless this is reconsidered before the Bill is public spending. Parliament recognised that by removing passed. I would like to pay my regards to the Minister the NAO’s role in 1984. As the shadow Minister and say that I trust her position on this and hope that acknowledged, the issue was considered by Sir Joseph the CAA will make the right decisions as well. Pilling in his 2008 review of the CAA. He concluded that there was no need for NAO involvement, and that recommendation was accepted by Ministers under the 5.15 pm previous Government, and I have yet to see convincing reasons why they were wrong. Mrs Villiers: I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) for his kind There are other examples of industry-funded regulators words and contribution and all Members who have that come under the scrutiny of the National Audit taken part in the debate on this group of amendments. I Office, as the shadow Minister said, but most either are was grateful that the shadow Minister expressed an non-ministerial Government departments or rely on interest in amendment 19 and am delighted to talk the Government funding for a significant amount of their House through the Government amendments; like those income. Others, such as the Financial Services Authority in the previous group, they are very dull and technical. and the Office of Rail Regulation, are funded by industries Amendment 14 rectifies a drafting omission in clause 63 that receive or have received significant taxpayer support— by specifying that the functions captured by the references distinguishing them, again, from the aviation sector, to “relevant 1998 Act functions” in clause 63 are the where such indirect taxpayer support is not present. functions specified in clause 62(2). Amendment 15 enables further clarification of how clause 70 will operate. Clause 70 To provide reassurance in response to the concerns provides that two or more persons are joint operators of that have been raised, I shall highlight the strength of an airport where they jointly have overall responsibility the current scrutiny arrangements. The Secretary of for the management of all the area. It is important to be State appoints the CAA’s external auditors; she presents able to identify the operator or joint operators so that the CAA’s accounts to Parliament by placing the annual there is clarity about who is appropriately subject to report statement in the Library; she is involved in the regulation. development of the authority’s corporate plan; with the Treasury’s consent she approves the national loans and Concern has also been expressed, for example by sets the CAA’s required rate of return on capital; and British Airways, that the test could draw some companies she will continue to approve the pay of the chairman into the regulatory system in a way that is not intended, and the non-executive members of the CAA board. for example when an airline is involved in running the That oversight, combined with the work of the CAA’s terminal from which its flights take off. Amendment 15 independent auditors, gives a strong incentive to secure provides that the Secretary of State has the same powers value for money and offers accountability to Parliament. to make regulations when two or more persons are to be treated as having overall responsibility for the management I also advise the House that the CAA has implemented of an area, as she already has for sole operators under the Pilling recommendation on establishing a programme the Bill. If unforeseen problems emerge, further clarity of value-for-money audits. The CAA also consults on could be provided by secondary legislation. its charges and fees, giving stakeholders the opportunity 1033 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1034 to raise any concerns that they have—they are always secure value for money and offers accountability to robust in making their views known—and the Bill makes Parliament. Over the past 10 years, the CAA has reduced such consultation an explicit legal requirement. its operating costs in real terms by more than 20%. There are therefore already effective mechanisms in I turn now to the points made by the hon. Member place to ensure that the CAA acts efficiently. As the for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). I will shadow Minister said, however, when we considered a not trespass on your patience, Madam Deputy Speaker, similar new clause in Committee, I undertook to reflect with a broad-ranging discussion of aviation capacity, on these issues and whether additional reassurance given that that was the subject of a new clause that was could be given on them. I am therefore today announcing not selected, but I reassure the hon. Gentleman that we a change to the CAA’s accounting direction, which I take this issue seriously and that our approach on a hope will provide some further reassurance. third runway at Heathrow is driven by the evidence on the impact that such a project would have. We believe Every year the DFT issues a report direction and an that it is essential to find an alternative way to meet the accounts direction to the CAA, specifying the matters long-term capacity needs of the UK economy. that should be addressed in the authority’s annual report and accounts. The Secretary of State intends to make Building a third runway at Heathrow would have a an addition to the accounts direction for 2013 and significant noise impact. People who live near Heathrow succeeding years which will for the first time require the account for about 70% of the people in the UK and CAA to include an efficiency statement in the annual more than one in four of the people in Europe who are report. The CAA has also agreed to do so for its exposed to an average noise from airports of more than activities in the current financial year. 55 dB. Thousands of people live with a plane going overhead every 90 seconds on a daily basis, not to The efficiency statement will be subject to validation mention the planes that wake them up at 4.30 in the by the external auditors, whose statement in the annual morning. The quality-of-life impact of a third runway, report will contain a summary of their findings on it, which would mean 220,000 more flights every year over and the Department for Transport will approve the a densely populated part of London, would be significant. terms of reference for this work. Industry representatives There is no technological solution in sight to ensure on the CAA’s finance advisory group will be given an that planes will become quiet enough quickly enough to opportunity to discuss the statement. make the burden tolerable. One advantage of such action over the Opposition’s proposed change is that it strengthens the existing annual Mr Donohoe: Just to put it on the record, is the process of scrutiny, with transparency in relation to Minister saying that there is no possibility of expansion industry and to Parliament when the Secretary of State at Heathrow or near Heathrow, say at Northolt? presents the accounts, whereas the NAO’s focus on the CAA would inevitably be less frequent than any annual Mrs Villiers: What I am saying is that we are opposed one. Our approach also enables the CAA to continue to to a third runway and that we believe it is essential to pursue value for money through the selection of its protect the quality of life of the communities who external auditor by tender. would be affected by it. Although I agree with the Opposition about the sentiment of new clause 5, which would impose an Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Is the Minister explicit efficiency duty on the CAA, I think its adoption aware of the paper by the Aviation Environment Federation is unnecessary because the authority is already subject for WWF UK on capacity across the country? It found to such a duty in all but name. The CAA’s strategic plan that there was space for contains the objective “a 52% growth in passengers” “to ensure that CAA is an efficient and effective organisation which meets Better Regulation Principles and gives value for and a twofold increase in air traffic movements with money” existing capacity. Does that mean that there is less need for the expansions that the Opposition seem to be keen Subsections (3) and (4) of clause 1 already require the on? CAA to carry out its economic regulation functions under part 1 of the Bill transparently, accountably, proportionately and consistently. To meet its statutory Mrs Villiers: I warmly agree with my hon. Friend that obligation to act proportionately and to target activity it is essential to make the best use of the existing only on cases where it is needed, the CAA is obliged to capacity in the south-east and around the country. We act efficiently and to have regard for the costs and will explore that in the process that we are undertaking benefits of its activities. on the future of our aviation capacity needs.

Moreover, the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Gavin Shuker: I agree with the Minister that we need Act 2006 provides that all statutory regulators to make better use of the capacity that we have. Of “should be accountable for the efficiency and effectiveness of course, Luton airport in my constituency has more their activities”. capacity and we are willing to share it. Does she not The Secretary of State for Transport writes to the CAA accept that we have a problem in that there is no proper chair setting objectives for its term, and the most recent UK aviation hub at present? such letter makes it very clear that the Government expect the CAA to operate efficiently and to minimise Mrs Villiers: As I said, London is one of the most the cost to industry. That oversight, combined with the well connected cities in the world and arguably the most work of the CAA auditors, gives a strong incentive to well connected. It has five or, depending on one’s definition, 1035 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1036

[Mrs Villiers] though it has been recognised that it needs strengthening. With the reassurances that she has given, I beg to ask six successful international airports that serve our economy leave to withdraw the clause. very well. We need this debate to be based on evidence, Clause, by leave, withdrawn. not on the propaganda that one reads on BAA posters. As I said, that matter is not, strictly speaking, germane New Clause 6 to the motion, so before I try your patience, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will turn to amendments 1 and COMPENSATION FOR NOISE POLLUTION 2 tabled by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton. His intention is that “effectiveness” should be construed ‘The CAA must ensure that airport operators establish and as spending wisely. Imposing such an obligation on the implement a scheme to compensate persons residing in or CAA could pull it into an inappropriate management occupying business or community premises in an area designated in the licence conditions for the noise pollution arising from role over regulated airports. I am sure that that is not his activities within the airport area, including the landing and intention, given that he is rigorous in opposing taking off of aircraft.’.—(Seema Malhotra.) disproportionate regulation. Brought up, and read the First time. My concern is that it is one thing to specify an output that is required, but quite another to specify the manner Seema Malhotra: I beg to move, That the clause be in which the operator should meet that obligation. The read a Second time. Bill gives the CAA the power to ensure that airports with substantial market power do not impose unreasonable Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this charges on their customers or exploit them. The amendment it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 3, might oblige the CAA to start telling an airport how to in clause 1, page 2, line 17, after ‘Chapter’, insert— run its business in the most effective way. That outcome ‘(ea) the need to work with NATS, the Secretary of State, would be disproportionate. the Committee on Climate Change and air transport service providers towards meeting the United Kingdom’s The current wording in clause 1(3) is broadly understood greenhouse gas emission reduction obligations as set by the stakeholders who are affected by the regime. out in the UK’s Carbon Budget, including the UK’s Inserting the word “effectiveness” at this stage might share of international aviation emissions’. undermine the clarity of the duties to which the CAA is Amendment 4, page 2, line 17, after ‘Chapter’, insert— subject, when clarity is one of the most important goals ‘(ea) the effect on the environment and on local communities in the Bill. of activities connected with the provision of airport My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris operation services and air transport services at the Heaton-Harris) is a staunch defender of the air freight airport to which the licence relates,’. industry, and it is always a pleasure to hear his contributions. Amendment 5, in clause 2, page 3, line 10, leave out I repeat the comments that I made in Committee about ‘and’ and insert— my admiration for the efficiency and success of that ‘(ca) the effect on the environment and on local communities industry in the UK, and I reassure him again that in of activities connected with the provision of airport exercising its information powers in relation to the operation services and air transport services at the freight industry, the CAA is obliged to take a proportionate airport to which the licence relates, and’. approach. The degree of intervention required in a Amendment 7, in clause 83, page 51, line 22, at end business-to-business market may be less than is appropriate insert— in the consumer market, and I am sure the CAA will ‘(d) greenhouse gas emissions resulting from both domestic take that on board in ensuring that it takes a proportionate flights and flights to European Union Member States, approach. with greenhouse gas emissions for an equivalent journey via rail or coach.’. Government amendment 16. 5.30 pm Amendment 6, in clause 84, page 52, line 11, at end I am sure that Ofcom and the CAA will take care to insert— avoid regulatory overlap. We do not believe that there is ‘(d) greenhouse gas emissions resulting from the use of a significant danger of that, but there are ways to deal international air transport services from a civil with such risks if they emerge in future, for example airport and domestic air transport services to or from through memorandums of understanding. My hon. a civil airport.’. Friend also asked whether I would be happy to meet Seema Malhotra: The new clause is intended to ensure representatives of the air freight industry, and I would that airport operators establish and implement a noise be delighted to do so. pollution compensation scheme for residents and I hope that the Opposition will not press the new organisations around an airport. clause and amendments, but if they do, I must ask the I welcome the Government’s recognition of the need House to vote against them. to address the environmental impact of aviation, which the Minister has expressed on many occasions. In Jim Fitzpatrick: We are very grateful to the Minister Committee, I moved an amendment with similar intentions for her reassurances, and we certainly welcome the to those behind the new clause. I asked the Minister strengthening of the auditing arrangements for the about the possibility of adding to the Bill a provisional CAA that she has outlined. We will be very keen to get compensation scheme for noise arising out of licensed the views of those who lobbied all the members of the activities affecting persons residing in, or occupying Public Bill Committee to ensure that the CAA became business or community premises in, an area designated even more efficient. From her explanation, it sounds as in the licence conditions. 1037 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1038

The Minister responded that the meaning of “licensed The CAA is the regulator of aviation activity in the activities” was not entirely clear, and that if I intended UK, but its responsibility for the environmental impact to refer to the definition of airport operation services as of aviation continues to be the subject of debate, not licensed activities in clause 68, the amendment could least today. The new clause seeks to ensure that the not be accepted, as the clause expressly excluded air CAA has authority to help to control the effects of transport services from that definition. She added that a noise and the quality of insulation and noise mitigation more substantive reason for her opposition to the schemes that each of the major UK airports operates in amendment was that she believed that the interests of local residents and the local work force. “environmental protection measures should not depend on whether The idea is particularly relevant in respect of a change an airport happens to be subject to economic regulation. If there in our airport infrastructure that could mean multiple is a case for environmental regulation, this should depend on the operators at a single airport. That could result in confusion airport’s environmental impact, regardless of whether the airport on who has responsibility. happens to have substantial market power and fall within the scope of the economic regulation framework set out in the Dr Huppert: The hon. Lady makes an interesting Bill.”––[Official Report, Civil Aviation Public Bill Committee, 6 March 2012; c. 216.] argument. Will she help me by saying how many people and premises would need to be given compensation New clause 6 is intended to deal with some of those according to the new clause? issues. We all recognise the need for aviation to support our Seema Malhotra: That is an interesting point. I have economy and the vital importance of airports in providing mentioned that compensation could be determined by local employment. I may well recognise that more than geographical zone or noise level. In Hounslow, all many others, as my constituency borders Heathrow households have been assessed, as have households airport, which supports more than 110,000 local jobs— further afield, on where they sit within the noise contours. approximately 22% of total local employment—and That minimum standard should be kept under review. If provides gross value added of £5.3 billion. It is a vital a person has had access to insulation measures in the national economic asset, but for Hounslow’s quarter of past, they might not need them again, notwithstanding a million residents and the residents of neighbouring any new developments. We know that the third runway boroughs, the daily environmental impact of Heathrow is off the agenda, but we should not have such conversations includes flights overhead every 60 seconds. The majority only as part of a new planning application on a new of the borough is located within the 55 dB(A) Lden development; the matter should be kept under review aircraft noise contour. all the time. New clause 6 has the support of my local authority—the The idea is not without precedent. For American London borough of Hounslow—and of neighbouring airports, airport-related noise-insulation schemes are MPs. In essence, it seeks provision relating to a not only regulated but administered by the Federal compensation scheme for noise pollution. The measure Aviation Administration. The UK, on the other hand, would support local residents, business and community has implemented only a voluntary system of noise premises to be insulated according to a formula based insulation for communities affected by aircraft noise. In on geographic zone or noise level, which could be Heathrow’s case, BAA administers a voluntary scheme decided or kept under review by the Secretary of State that provides noise insulation grants. There is a review as a minimum level of the airport’s responsibility to its of its adequacy and we await the results of the response. local area. In Committee, I welcomed the CAA’s reporting of All hon. Members know that noise impacts on health environmental impacts, and I do so again here, because and well-being. That debate continues. For example, the it will lead to greater consistency in monitoring and a secondary analysis of the London Heathrow sample of more robust evidence base to support a dialogue between children from the RANCH project—the EU project on local authorities and airports. However, residents who road traffic and aircraft noise exposure and children’s live near airports need clarity about who will be responsible cognition and health—examined the effects of daytime for negotiating with local authorities and the formula aircraft noise exposure at home and at school. It concluded under which different operators may have different levels that aircraft noise exposure at school had a significant of responsibility. effect on children’s cognitive development, and that In my initial amendment in March, we argued that, in schools needed to be an important focus for the protection addition to a passive reporting role, the CAA’s role of children from aircraft noise. should include those of adviser and referee—although I have drawn on examples from my local area, but not necessarily of policeman and woman, as referred to aircraft and aviation noise is a national issue that affects by the Minister—and that the airport operators’ neighbourhoods in every airport location. The good responsibilities to communities should be clearly referred practice guide on noise exposure and potential health to as part of the licence conditions under which they benefits from the European Environment Agency states operate. That would help to provide greater clarity that 27% of people in the 55 dB(A) Lden areas are about, and consistency in, the principles of noise mitigation highly annoyed by aircraft noise, and there are implications schemes, which may vary, as needs vary, across the for irritation, anxiety and stress. However, one set of country. Clear minimum standards should be set, however, stakeholders whose needs are not sufficiently well recognised and local authorities given the tools and support needed or reflected in the Bill or the CAA’s environmental to negotiate effectively for the needs of their local consultation documents is local residents who live around communities. airports and are exposed to aircraft and other noise that A process should also be in place to help if there is results from licensed activities such as aircraft taking disagreement between airports and communities. I off and landing and surface transport. understand that the Minister might disagree with our 1039 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1040

[Seema Malhotra] there is simply no need for the vast expansion that was pushed for by the Labour Government. Indeed, a number proposal, but currently there appears to be no clear of Labour MPs still seem to be pushing for it. It would route for compensating for and minimising noise pollution, be great to have some clarity on exactly what the other than what has been the case under section 78 of Opposition’s position is, as their Front Benchers seem the Civil Aviation Act 1982, which gives the Transport to differ from their Back Benchers. Secretary powers to regulator noise. That has tended to I was quite taken by the comments we have heard focus on night flights and to be implemented on a about noise pollution generally. I was interested in the voluntary basis, but it does not give adequate protection numbers, because I am concerned about how such a to local residents and is not future proof. In the future, scheme could work. I have to say that I am not persuaded the situation might be different, so we need a process that I understand how it could operate, although I and some form of regulation to guarantee the rights of would be happy to hear what is said later and see local communities. whether I can be persuaded. For example, HACAN Clear Skies—from the Heathrow Association for the Dr Huppert: Those who served in Committee will Control of Aircraft Noise—estimates that about 1 million know that I am passionate about environmental concerns people are currently affected by noise under the Heathrow and their effect on the aviation industry. flight path, which would clearly impose too big a load We should remember that air travel is a wonderful when it comes to serious compensation. I would be thing: air freight is great, it benefits business and tourism, happy if there were some way of developing further and allows families to keep in touch. There are wonderful some semblance of that concept, but I am not persuaded. aspects to air travel, but it also has damaging consequences, If the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema such as noise, as we have just heard. It affects those who Malhotra) puts new clause 6 to a vote, I am afraid I will live nearby. Roughly one quarter of those in Europe not support her, although I recognise where the idea affected by heavy aircraft noise live under the Heathrow comes from and I find it an interesting one. flight path in London. It also has huge effects on the 5.45 pm environment. Carbon dioxide and a range of other contaminants are released as a result of aviation. This is Seema Malhotra: In response to the hon. Gentleman’s a huge, international problem that does not only affect, point about how we might determine such a scheme, and cannot only be controlled in, the UK. As the there are existing processes in place, which operators former chief scientific adviser to the previous Government, such as BAA use to measure where the noise is greatest, Professor Sir David King, said, climate change is the so that they can then respond with a proportionate greatest threat facing mankind. Aviation is a large and scheme. I see no reason why that principle could not be growing component of that, and is one that is particularly applied to something more comprehensive in future. poorly dealt with around the world. We need a balance between aviation and reducing the Dr Huppert: I hear with interest what the hon. Lady harm it does. The CAA is already doing some work and says, although if that is already happening, I am not is better now than it was a couple of years ago at taking quite sure what her new clause would achieve. Perhaps a account of environmental issues. I very much welcome worked example to give some sense of the numbers and that. However, I would not like to see what we heard costs involved would make the case more persuasive for earlier about trying to provide as much as is demanded. me. Perhaps there will be time later—at a future date, as I am pleased that new clause 1, tabled by the hon. the Bill progresses—to understand exactly what is proposed. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), I would personally be interested to understand that, but was not selected. It would lead to unlimited growth and at the moment I do not feel I have enough of a handle expansion, which would be extremely worrying for us on it to support the hon. Lady’s proposal. all. I hope to hear from the Opposition Front-Bench Graham Stringer: I do not suppose that the hon. spokesman that Labour dissociates itself from such a Gentleman and I are likely to agree on this, but I would policy, but if not, we must assume that it supports it. I like to understand his position a little more thoroughly. look forward to hearing the answer. Is it his contention that constraining capacity in the The policy in new clause 1 would, however, be consistent south-east will reduce the number of flights, or will it in for a party that pushed for the third runway at Heathrow fact increase the number of flights—as is my contention—as and the second runway at Stansted, despite the fact that people fly to other European hubs? the latter is operating at about only 50% of its capacity— what it really wants is a better railway line. That policy Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman is quite right that would lead to mass expansion and mass destruction we will agree on very little in this area, other than on the around the world. And it is simply not needed. The fact that we will disagree quite strongly. At the moment, Committee on Climate Change has come up with a we have a number of people travelling to the south-east, climate budget for how much we can afford to increase by road and all sorts of other means, in order to fly out. by. It estimates that it can cope with a 60% increase in We can use some of the capacity in other areas, in the passenger numbers by 2050. Conveniently enough, as I north. My contention is that by not expanding capacity referred to earlier, the Aviation Environment Federation in the way the previous Government wanted to, we will did some work for WWF UK showing that existing see less environmental degradation and we will better be capacity will give us 52% increases by 2050—almost the able to stay within our carbon budget, which we can same the figure, but then we do not know exactly how afford for the good of the rest of the world as well as big the planes will be. A number of airports are already ourselves. However, I do not think the hon. Gentleman able to use bigger planes—Stansted is already set up to and I are going to agree on this one, however many use A380 aeroplanes, which are code F, I think—so times we discuss it. 1041 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1042

Turning to the amendments that deal with environmental aviation industry or its consumers, and that environmental impacts issues, let me be clear what I would like to see. I would are as important a determinant of aviation policy as consumer like to see lower emissions at every airport in the country. demand”. Some of that can be done technologically. Planes are That is something that I would love to see. I understand coming out that are more and more efficient, which I that there are some technical problems with the precise very much welcome. I have mentioned some of the wording of the proposal, which is why I have not been excellent work being done by Rolls-Royce, and some able to table a detailed amendment that I could persuade research has been done in my constituency specifically the Government to accept. I should like to get these to enable that, which I very much welcome. I would also things right for the longer term, rather than put on a like to see more public understanding of the effects of small show now. However, I hope that such a proposal climate change, and of what aviation does and how it would be considered, and I look forward to hearing compares with other things. I would also like to see from the Minister as to whether there is any prospect of some certainty that airports will be able to reclaim when her doing so. they implement environmental measures—a point was A key issue made clear to me by AirportWatch and made very clear to me by AirportWatch, along with others was the need for certainty for airports. We all others concerned about a lack of certainty. agree that we do not want any predatory airlines—I will We had a number of discussions in the Public Bill not suggest any that might fall into that category—to Committee about the exact nuances of the amendments exploit a lack of clarity to avoid paying what we all and their technical aspects. It is important to get things believe they should pay towards environmental right for the longer term, rather than jumping to agree improvements at airports. I believe that the Minister has to half-baked or 99%-baked amendments. Although I received legal advice that the Bill provides such certainty, recognise the spirit in which the shadow Minister will, I but I hope that she accepts the concern expressed by presume, be pressing some of his amendments, I do not AirportWatch, the AEF, others and me that there is a think we are quite there yet. I hope that he will accept lack of clarity. If there is a risk that the Bill is not that concern, and I am sure he will take a different line absolutely water-tight legally, I hope that the Government when we come round to it. will table an amendment in the other place to ensure that we do not encounter that problem, as we all agree Amendment 3 is definitely much improved. I am that we do not want to have that concern. I look much more persuaded by it, but there is still the problem forward to hearing the Minister’s thoughts. that it would apply only to the regulated airports. I am sure that the shadow Minister would accept that that is How do we achieve the overall environmental progress a concern, and if we could do something that affected that we would like? I believe that the Government will all airports, that would go further—I will return to that shortly publish a draft aviation policy framework. We point later. The same thing applies to amendment 7. I expected them to publish it in March, but it has taken find it an interesting amendment, and I would be supportive time to get it right. We welcome the fact that such work of it, were it not for the fact that clause 84 already requires has been undertaken, and I hope that the framework the same information to be published—I am sure that the looks at the possibility of environmental regulation Minister will correct me if I am wrong about that. That across all airports. That would be the best solution, information should be published, as clause 84 says, so rather than fitting the measure into one particular we do not need to move it to clause 83 merely to solve route, and applying it only to regulated airports. I hope a problem. In Committee, I praised the Minister’s that the Minister will be able to confirm that the aviation environmental credentials. She turned her party towards policy framework, which we all anticipate with great the Liberal Democrat position of supporting high-speed excitement, will deal with those environmental concerns. rail and opposing a third runway at Heathrow and a There is a prospect of the Bill doing some very good second runway at Stansted. She did a good job, and I things by improving the information flow and making again pay tribute to her. She made strong arguments the CAA more aware, and by making sure that we deal that were more persuasive for Conservatives than those with risks to airports. I hope that the aviation policy that we made. framework will offer a visionary solution that ensures It is not clear that the Opposition have made that that we have a sustainable aviation future. leap, and I seek clarity as to why many Labour Back Benchers argued against the position adopted by shadow Jim Fitzpatrick: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Ministers and why they are still hung up on providing Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who will not be more capacity and more runways across the south-east. surprised to learn that he features quite strongly in the When I raised that with the Minister she agreed to look opening passage of my speech. I perceive that he has an further at what environmental benefits could be achieved. eye problem, and I am sorry if that is the case. I hope I am grateful to her for doing so, and for the time that that he is not in too much discomfort: we would not she has spent with me discussing the matter. She wish to see anyone in pain. understands quite well what I am trying to achieve. This is probably the key debate of the afternoon, My ideal is something that has not yet been included because the subject of whether an environmental duty in the Bill, because there are some problems with the should be included in the Bill invited the most disagreements wording of my proposal, which was recommended by in Committee. The amendments take account of our the Aviation Environment Federation. In paragraph 31 discussions in Committee. I am grateful to the hon. of its submission to the Bill Committee, it said that Members for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) and for Cambridge what it would most like to see was an for their advice on drafting amendments, and to the Minister for the guidance that the Government have “amendment to section 4 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 to clarify given to the Opposition about how to address those that CAA has a duty to the general public, rather than only to the issues. 1043 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1044

[Jim Fitzpatrick] airports, and not all of the rest of them? Does he accept that that is a genuine concern for those of us who wish In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for to see the environmental regulation of all airports? Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) said of the hon. Member for Cambridge: Jim Fitzpatrick: It is almost breathtaking that, when “He seems to be arguing for an environmental duty, but he we are proposing an environmental duty that would does not like the amendment.” cover the busiest airport in the UK, the hon. Gentleman No change there, then. The hon. Gentleman does not should say, “No, let’s not do that. Let’s wait till we get like these proposals either. My hon. Friend went on: Southend right.” That just does not make sense. We are arguing for the introduction of an environmental duty “He has not tabled any amendments of his own”— now. He is arguing that, although he wants one, this one the hon. Gentleman was having difficulty writing one in just does not fit the bill. I was not praising him for his Committee, and he is still having difficulty six weeks consistency, by the way, and just because he is consistently later— wrong does not mean that I agree with him. “but he is looking for the Minister to come up with an alternative. Is that correct?” Mrs Villiers: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman The hon. Member for Cambridge replied: is in a position to lecture my hon. Friend the Member “That is an extremely good summary of my position. I would for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on consistency. In theory, like to see an environmental duty and I hope we will be able to Labour opposes a third runway, yet every time one of work across all parties to find one that delivers the aims that we its Back Benchers mentions the subject, they tend to be share. I have faith in the Minister’s ability to find that.”––[Official very supportive of the idea. Report, Civil Aviation Public Bill Committee, 28 February 2012; c. 119] Jim Fitzpatrick: The Minister knows full well that the Sadly, no such measure has arrived today, so he is going shadow Secretary of State made our position on the to have to wait. third runway quite clear when she invited Members to The hon. Member for Cambridge criticised our proposal attend cross-party talks on the subject. To date, as far as in Committee, just as he has done today. At that time, I am aware, my hon. Friend has not even had an answer he said: from the Secretary of State. Our position is clear. “First, it does not mention what the shadow Minister himself mentioned at the beginning of his speech—the Committee on Dr Huppert rose— Climate Change. It is a great shame that the amendment does not talk about working with it; it advises the Government on setting Jim Fitzpatrick: I want to make some progress, given and meeting carbon budgets and has already done a huge amount that other colleagues want to speak in the debate. of work.”––[Official Report, Civil Aviation Public Bill Committee, In Committee, the Minister said of environmental 28 February 2012; c. 117.] requirements: The hon. Gentleman went on, rightly, to congratulate “Such requirements should come with the sanction of Parliament the Committee on Climate Change. I am sure that most and Ministers, rather than being delegated to the CAA in its Members would do the same. I would have hoped that capacity as economic regulator.”––[Official Report, Civil Aviation our new amendment 3 would adequately address the Public Bill Committee, 28 February 2012; c. 137.] points that the hon. Gentleman was raising. It is our view, however, that the CAA should have an A key recommendation of the Committee on Climate environmental duty, given the new powers and duties Change’s report on international aviation and shipping, that it is taking on. Why is no such duty being proposed? which was published this month, states: We would have put an environmental duty in the Bill. “Our report concludes that international aviation and shipping The initial drafting included an environmental duty, emissions need to be formally included in carbon budgets. Emissions although I am not sure whether the hon. Member for from these sectors were initially left out of carbon budgets…when Cambridge would have supported that one. the Climate Change Act became law. However, they have been informally included in the 2050 target…Under the Act, a decision 6pm on the inclusion…is required by the end of 2012. Formal inclusion of these emissions will ensure a more transparent, comprehensive In March 2009, the Secretary of State for Transport— and flexible accounting framework under the Climate Change then Geoff Hoon—brought together the Pilling and Act and provide more certainty for the future.” Cave recommendations in a parliamentary statement. I would have hoped that amendment 3, which now He said: makes reference to the Committee on Climate Change “I want economic regulation to be targeted, flexible and efficient. and to greenhouse gas emissions, would cover the points I am therefore proposing the introduction of a licence-based that the hon. Gentleman was unhappy with in Committee. scheme of regulation similar to that which exists in other regulated Amendments 4 and 5 cover issues similar to those that sectors.”—[Official Report, 9 March 2009; Vol. 489, c. 5WS.] were so ably raised by my hon. Friend the Member for In the other regulated sectors, the statutory duties for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra). the Office of Rail Regulation, for example, include “to have regard to the effect on the environment of activities Dr Huppert: I thank the hon. Gentleman for praising connected to the provision of railway services”. my consistency.I have made the same arguments throughout For Ofgem, they include our proceedings. As I think I said earlier, the amendment “to have regard to the effect on the environment of activities that he has tabled today is a significant improvement on connected to the generation, transmission, distribution and supply the one that he tabled in Committee. I think that we of electricity”— agree on the reasons for that. Does he accept, however, and it is the same for Ofgas and Ofwat. These regulators that it would still affect only the economically regulated have environmental duties. 1045 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1046

Mrs Villiers: It is important for the hon. Gentleman Rural Affairs and by the Department of Energy and to appreciate that the difference with those bodies is Climate Change—so why not by the Department for that a universal jurisdiction applies across an entire Transport? sector or industry, whereas we are dealing with a situation We heard powerful evidence in Committee to suggest in which economic regulation applies only to a few that passenger choice is not based on green issues—if airports. That is why this is not the appropriate or right that were the case, it would be welcome—but on the way to deliver environmental regulation. location of the airport, whether it serves their destination and on the convenience of getting there, as well, of Jim Fitzpatrick: I hear what the Minister says. In our course, as the cost. It not based on the environment, but Committee discussions, those we are having today and the environment does matter, and it will matter increasingly in discussions outside, transport consistently appears as in the years ahead. Now is the time, and here is the a big contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. Aviation opportunity, to encourage that type of decision making continues to grow. In a recent speech, I believe to The on the environment by including information about Times transport conference, the Minister quoted the environmental impacts on ticketing and the CAA could statistics showing that transport will year on year out to that. We will therefore seek to test support for new 2030 and beyond make a bigger contribution to those clause 6. emissions, simply because the sector is growing. It cannot Yesterday my hon. Friend the Member for Garston be right not to address the question of having an and Halewood (Maria Eagle), the shadow Secretary of environmental duty at a time when we are we are State, said: introducing the new powers and duties and the new “The Government has refused to recommit to the targets on regulatory authority through the Bill. Surely now is the reducing emissions from aviation set by the previous Labour appropriate time for it. government and has yet to respond positively to the Committee on Climate Change’s recommendation that this should be extended to include the UK’s share of international emissions, which is Julie Hilling: Does my hon. Friend agree that although explicitly covered by the amendment.” the majority of the Bill deals with economic regulation I look forward to the Minister’s comments on that. I of some airports, it also includes other measures, such cannot repeat what my right hon. Friend said about the as those on security, that affect all airports? It is thus a Liberal Democrats, unless the hon. Member for Cambridge little disingenuous to say that the Bill cannot include (Dr Huppert) wants me to. [HON.MEMBERS: “Go on.”] environmental duties on those grounds. Well, she was not very kind to the Liberal Democrats. She said that they were “meekly”following the Government Jim Fitzpatrick: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for in rejecting our amendments. Clearly she anticipated her intervention, and I entirely agree that seeking to their exact response, which is entirely inconsistent with place an environmental duty in the Bill is in no way their pre-election stance on dealing with the environmental inappropriate. We think it is entirely in keeping with the impact of aviation. new powers to confer on the CAA a duty to take We think that the Government should be bolder, cognisance of the environmental impact of aviation. cleaner and greener, and should accept the principle of environmental duty. If we do not receive the reassurance Concerns were raised in Committee about the inclusion that we seek from the Minister—and I do not expect of the regulatory asset base, and the Gatwick Express that we shall—we will seek to divide the House on was mentioned, along with other aspects. The Opposition amendment 3 and new clause 6. believed that stronger powers were needed—and that they were needed on the face of the Bill. Let me end by quoting recommendation 38 of the Transport Committee’s report. I see that the highly We ask the question once again: why is there no regarded independent Chair of the Committee, my hon. environmental duty for the CAA as a regulator? The Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Government say that they want to be “the greenest Ellman)—for whom the whole House has regard—is Government ever”—fine words. The Minister proudly present. Her Committee said: says that she will “yield to no one” on environmental “Without giving the CAA a supplementary duty on the protection. I congratulate her on that, as these are more environment in relation to its economic regulation role, there is fine words. The Lib Dems say that we were not tough or some risk that airports may be reluctant to invest in improving focused enough and that our words were not appropriate— environmental performance. Whilst, as the Minister says, there more fine words, if they mean anything. The time to may be ‘absolutely no doubt’ about measures taken to comply take action, however, is now, because we have the with statutory environmental obligations, there remains a doubt opportunity to do so now. about whether the costs of discretionary measures, such as improved public transport access, can be recovered by airports in charges to With new clause 6 and amendment 7, we think that airlines.” seeking to inform passengers about the environmental That is one recommendation that we solidly support, impact is wholly appropriate. The Minister agreed with which is why we wish to press the new clause and the principle when she said that she shared with Opposition amendment to a vote at the appropriate time. members of the Committee “the goal of harnessing consumer power in our efforts to reduce John McDonnell: I support all the new clauses and the environmental impacts of aviation.”—[Official Report, Civil amendments, and I am sure that when the Minister has Aviation Public Bill Committee, 13 March 2012; c. 314.] explained what her amendment is, I will support it We all know that the tools exist commercially. Travel as well. companies produce information on the environmental I thought that Members throughout the House had impact of different modes of transport, and this is learned as a result of the debate on the third runway advocated by the Department for Environment, Food and and overall aviation strategy that—as the Select Committee 1047 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1048

[John McDonnell] BAA and the aviation industry have taken no account of the impact of their activities on the village of Sipson. has said—it was necessary for proper account to be They have blighted the Heathrow villages for almost taken of the environmental impact of the development 20 years as a result of threats of expansion. They have of aviation, and of airports in particular. As my hon. brought in a bond scheme whereby they have bought up Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim the village of Sipson, even though the Government have Fitzpatrick) pointed out, this evening we have been now said there will be no third runway, for which I presented with an opportunity to ensure that that happens. thank them. The Labour Opposition have said exactly Let me explain why this is important to my community. the same; we are opposed to a third runway now. There Tonight I am to attend the annual general meeting of is cross-House consensus on this, therefore. I am not the Harmondsworth and Sipson residents association, completely sure that that is written in blood, but it will which will also be attended by representatives of each of be if there is any going back on the commitment. the Heathrow villages, including Longford, Harlington However, BAA is still not giving up those properties. and, I hope, Cranford Cross. The issues that will concern In fact, this month it has bought more, and it has them are the issues in the amendments. They will be housed people in them on a temporary basis—for concerned about the noise from the airport itself and 12 months or two years. That has destabilised Sipson. about the environmental impact of air pollution, but also about the future of their villages. In other words, Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am sure the they will be concerned about the overall impact of the hon. Gentleman appreciates that aviation is vital not airport on their local communities. only to this country, but to the community he represents, New clause 6—to which my hon. Friend the Member and certainly to the community I represent. I therefore for Poplar and Limehouse has spoken so eloquently, want to understand the drift of his comments. Is he both today and in Committee—highlights the fact that saying that BAA should cease to operate and that the measures taken so far to address the problem of Heathrow should shut down? What exactly is he proposing? noise pollution from the airport have simply not worked. There has been some improvement, but nothing like the John McDonnell: I wish I hadn’t bothered now! We improvement that we want as a local community, and must not go back to that level of debate. The hon. certainly nothing that is acceptable. There is a voluntary Gentleman is one of the most intelligent new Members agreement at Heathrow purely and simply to provide of the House, and I have even started to read his books. insulation for a limited number of properties—private We must not get dragged down into such trite debates. houses, and some public buildings—but although that We will meet separately and work together to develop a is welcome, it is a voluntary agreement and has had no strategy to enhance the economic benefits of Heathrow impact in bearing down on the noise from the airport. I for both our communities, as I did with his predecessor. believe that posing the threat of a compensation scheme The debate is not about whether to close Heathrow; it is will focus the minds of the airport authorities and the about how to strike the right balance between enhancing aviation industry, and will constitute a promise to local the employment benefits and protecting the environment, residents of at least some compensation. and that is all that these amendments do. They simply The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) asked say to the Secretary of State and the CAA, “You need how such a scheme could be devised. We arrived at the to take into account the environmental implications idea of the insulation scheme and devised it during our and the effects on local communities.” debates, and although there was no actual consensus, at What has happened in Sipson has not been taken into least we secured agreement in some form. I am sure that account. BAA is still buying properties and letting them we can use that as a model for our scheme, which is out on a short-term basis. The community is therefore being consulted on at present. It is not beyond the wit of continuously blighted. There is no compensation for the man or woman to devise an appropriate scheme and local businesses—the butcher, the hairdresser, the local build upon it for the future. post office and pub. Their loyal clientele is now gone, A group of my constituents live in the most air-polluted and some of those businesses are closing down while area of the whole country, along with the City of the others can no longer earn a living. London. That is reflected in the incidence of respiratory We have met BAA and I have met Colin Marshall. I conditions and cancer in the area. We have been designated pushed the boat out and took him for a coffee in central an air quality management zone, but that has had no Hayes. I sought to see whether at least some support effect whatever on the level of air pollution in the area, could be devised for those local businesses to tide them because of the increase in aviation. Therefore, I support over while they build up the loyal base again as best the amendments that place a responsibility on the CAA they can. The answer was no. Only two weeks ago, the and the Secretary of State to look at environmental board rejected that request. What is happening now? It impacts, including air pollution and emissions. They is offering a small element to try to tart up the front of contribute to climate change as well. the shops—that is all. The Bill provides us with an opportunity to make this That is the sort of blight that has occurred as a result a cross-party priority. That will send the aviation industry of the activities of BAA—well not BAA, but Ferrovial, the message that we must address these issues. Air the Spanish company founded by a fascist under Franco quality management zones and all the other policies of that has now exploited my community to maximise its the past 20 years have had very little impact. profits and ship them abroad to prop up the construction I welcome the amendments that would place a duty corporation, which is now having financial trouble. So I on the Secretary of State and the CAA to take into welcome the opportunity that these amendments would account the overall impact of aviation activities on local provide to place that duty on the CAA and the Secretary communities. That is important for my community. of State to ensure that the impact on local communities 1049 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1050 is taken into account. If these duties were in place now, airports, many of which are struggling to survive at the BAA would have to introduce a compensation scheme moment. For airports it is about having as many flights for those local businesses in Sipson; it would have to as possible. Airports such as Heathrow are having to stop blighting the overall area; it would have to introduce work out how to squeeze them into the restricted air a scheme to compensate my constituents for the noise and ground space. It is about getting passengers to the pollution they are experiencing; and it would have to airport in the easiest way possible because the operators drive down on its operations that are producing such air need to ensure that passengers choose to travel with pollution in my area. them in the future. To believe that operators will consider I finish by saying that some of my local schools environmental issues out of the goodness of their hearts around Heathrow have a box into which children put seems somewhat naive. their pumps when they go into class in the morning. Manchester, my local airport, does what it can to be a They do so because they suffer from such a range of good neighbour. It has invested greatly in rail links and respiratory conditions, particularly asthma. In Hillingdon, other mitigating measures and it is now investing in we now specifically train our teachers on how to deal Metrolink to bring more people to the airport. I do not with asthma attacks in class; this is as a result of the air believe, however, that a vague requirement, rather than pollution, particularly that from the airport itself. The an absolute duty, is enough. amendments are some of the most significant in terms of attempting to affect the environmental impact of As was discussed in Committee, I do not believe that aviation in this country that we have seen for many a passengers make a choice because of the green credentials year, and they should be treated seriously. New clause 6 of their airport. I am sure that other passengers, like should be treated seriously, because the noise affects not me, work out where they want to go, what price it will only people’s enjoyment, but their health, as has been be and how easy it will be to get to the airport. Deciding shown in recent research. I am pleased that new clause 6 whether to fly or catch a train might be my one is being put to the test in the House tonight. Even if the environmental consideration, but I do not make any Government cannot accept the other amendments, I further considerations in choosing where to go. would welcome it if they would think again, as we go Furthermore, as has been said, other regulators, such as into this consultation on aviation overall, to see how we the Office of Rail Regulation, have a duty on environmental can build in better environmental protections for the concerns. It seems a bit perverse when we are considering local communities against the expansion and operations new duties for the CAA not to say that it should have an of aviation overall. environmental duty. We must say to the aviation industry that the environment Julie Hilling: I will not speak for long, but I wish to is a big issue, both in terms of its carbon footprint and express the enormous disappointment, among not only for those who live near airports, who are extremely the green groups, but the many people who live near disappointed that the Government have not used the airports and are affected by them, at the fact that the Bill as an opportunity to consider the problems and do Government did not put an environmental duty in the something about them. Yes, the amendments are not all Bill. I accept that the amendments that we are proposing that we would want, but they are a start. I urge hon. do not go as far as we would have wanted this Bill to go. Members on both sides of the House to support them, However, the speech made by my hon. Friend the particularly those people who have argued long and Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) hard about their environmental concerns. demonstrated exactly why we need at least to include these amendments in the Bill and to continue to work Pat Glass: At the beginning of the debate, I said that for the future to ensure that those measures operate I felt that the Bill was essentially a good one with a across all airports. number of omissions, and perhaps the most glaring There is great concern worldwide about air travel’s omission of all is the statutory environmental duty. effect on the environment and the damage it can do to That statutory duty was part of the Bill when it was the ozone layer, but many more people are concerned drafted by the previous Government, and it is not clear about what happens day to day. They are concerned to me why the “greenest Government ever”would remove it. about the effect of airports on their daily lives. Noise is In Committee, the Minister told us that the Bill is the most obvious issue we talk about when we debate about economic regulation and that there is therefore airports and although it is, of course, a very serious no room for a statutory environmental duty. However, issue, it affects a smaller group of people than other the Bill is about much more than simply the economic environmental concerns. regulation of the CAA. If was just about economic Similarly the actual flight makes up only a small part regulation, it would not include safety or security or an of the carbon footprint of any journey by air. We also extension of the air travel organisers’ licence. It is not a need to consider: the environmental costs of getting clean and simple Bill about economic regulation; it is a people to the airport by road and rail; the cost of road long overdue consolidation and updating of regulations congestion, which is a huge issue in my community in covering a wide range of issues in which those sections Greater Manchester; and the cost to the environment of dealing with a statutory duty on environmental issues the car parking spaces that seem to spread across the should have been included but have been deliberately fields, particularly around Heathrow and Gatwick, where expunged. we seem to grow cars instead of crops. I could perhaps understand the Government’s reluctance Of course the industry faces competing priorities. Its to include the environmental duty if the CAA was the main priority has to be getting passengers to their only economic regulator to have such a statutory duty destination in the most profitable way possible. Profits—or placed on it. We have heard the Minister say in response at least costs—are even more important for regional to that point that the Bill only covers certain airports, 1051 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1052

[Pat Glass] I was not surprised that Conservative members of the Bill Committee voted down environmental safeguards, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West but I was particularly disappointed and surprised that (Julie Hilling) has said, in some areas, such as security, Lib Dem members of the Committee did so too. Listening it covers all airports. to the nice warm words today from the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) only increases my surprise Mrs Villiers: Will the hon. Lady give way? and disappointment. I recall that in Committee, he said that he was not supporting our amendment because it Pat Glass: May I finish this point? I will then be was not strong enough. We have had six weeks. He had happy to give way. an opportunity to table much stronger amendments Even if the Bill covered only certain airports, would it himself, both in Committee and today, and what have not be a good start to begin with the biggest airports in we seen? Nothing. All we have seen is the hon. Gentleman the country? The Minister has also said—I am sure she turning himself almost inside-out in an attempt to face will say it again when she intervenes—that other economic both ways at the same time. However, all is not lost. He regulators, such as Ofgem and Ofwat, have universal and his Lib Dem colleagues do have an opportunity to jurisdiction, but that is not true. Ofgem does not have salve their conscience, and to have the courage of their universal jurisdiction. Huge areas of this country, convictions by voting for a statutory environmental particularly rural areas, are off gas and are therefore duty in the Lobby this evening. not covered by Ofgem. I know that because I and other Members of the House have consistently campaigned Mrs Villiers: I would like to assure the House that the to extend Ofgem’s jurisdiction to make it universal. I coalition takes the environmental impacts of aviation am sorry, but the Minister’s argument is just not correct. very seriously—both its constituent parties. We take seriously both its global impact in terms of carbon Mrs Villiers: Both the hon. Lady and the hon. Member emissions and its local impact in terms of noise and air for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) made points about parts quality. I welcome the contributions made by so many of the Bill covering all airports, and that is undoubtedly hon. Members this afternoon about the significance of true, but the amendments relate to economic regulation. those impacts—the hon. Members for Feltham and So, the amendments seek to use economic regulation as Heston (Seema Malhotra) and for Hayes and Harlington a means of achieving environmental objectives. That is (John McDonnell), and my hon. Friends the Members one of my fundamental objections. If we are going for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), for Rochester regulate for environmental purposes, we need to do it and Strood (Mark Reckless) and for Cambridge across the board in a proportionate, targeted and efficient (Dr Huppert). Although I have some sympathy with the way, not via economic regulation. underlying purpose of the amendments, there are a number of important reasons why I cannot ask the Pat Glass: And I would agree if we had before us House to support them today. some regulation that would cover all airports, but we do I do understand the concerns expressed, by, for example not. So I am sorry: we have to start somewhere. my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge and groups Moving on to the impact of the statutory duty, I such as HACAN—Heathrow Association for the Control cannot believe that anyone would argue that it is not of Airport Noise—and AirportWatch. I know that my needed. I appreciate that aviation emissions currently hon. Friend is looking for further clarity on environmental make up 6% of UK emissions, but we all know that that investment and I hope I can provide some reassurance is expected to rise to as much as 25%, even if the today on that and on how the Bill will work. I will also Government stick to the current targets and even if say to my hon. Friend and others who have expressed a those targets are met. But as we heard today, environmental view today that the Government will continue to listen issues around airports and air travel go much further with great care to the concerns raised on environmental than concerns about emissions. They include air quality matters, including those set out in the debate today. We around airports and in the wider environment, they shall continue to reflect carefully on whether further include noise pollution at and around airports and they clarity needs to be provided in the Bill, and no doubt include surface transport links and access. As we heard there will be another opportunity to consider this matter today from my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley in the other place. The aviation policy framework that and Broughton (Graham Stringer), a recognised expert we shall publish next spring provides another key in this area, most pollution around airports does not opportunity to address the full range of the environmental actually come from planes; it comes from vehicles going impacts of aviation and establish the best way to deal to, from and around airports. Those living around and with them. close to airports are naturally concerned about air In the Government’s view, the Bill as currently drafted quality and noise pollution, and they will be very unhappy allows the CAA to authorise reasonable investment in to see the Government remove the statutory duty from measures that mitigate environmental impact, even where the Bill. they are voluntarily undertaken. Where environmental Finally, I want to move on to the issue of emissions, measures benefit users of air transport services in the which are of concern to us all. We all need to know that provision of airport operation services, the Bill gives the the CAA will pay proper regard to playing its part in CAA the power to allow for its costs in the regulatory meeting the 2015 targets, in a world in which emissions settlement. from aviation are going to increase, and in which the The CAA made clear in its evidence to the Public Bill emissions challenge will simply get harder and harder. Committee that a system that safeguards the interests I do not understand, in this situation of increasing of end users and seeks to replicate a functioning market, challenge, why the Government are choosing to remove as this system does, can and does embrace investment in the statutory duty. environmental measures and surface access improvements. 1053 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1054

Iain Osborne of the CAA pointed out in his evidence Member for Cambridge pointed out, both amendments that unregulated airports across the world invest in are manifestly already covered in the Bill by clause 84(1)(a). environmental measures. For example, although its noise Inserting them into the Bill might cause drafting confusion mitigation scheme is now mandated as part of a planning and inhibit the CAA from focusing on matters such as agreement, Birmingham airport operated a voluntary noise and air quality. scheme from 1978 to 1996. Since 2003 the airport has In conclusion, I have responded in some detail to the also operated a voluntary scheme to provide roof protection amendments because I appreciate the importance of the for properties affected by roof damage from aircraft issues raised and the finely balanced arguments, particularly vortices. Other examples include East Midlands airport’s on the point about clarity in relation to the continuing investment in wind turbines and Bournemouth airport’s ability of regulated airports to invest in environmental investment in solar panels. We firmly believe that it will measures. I understand those concerns. I believe that continue to be possible for environmental investment to the regulatory regime provided for in the Bill will continue be authorised under the regulatory system proposed in to allow reasonable levels of investment in environmental the Bill. I hope that that provides some clarity and mitigation because this is an undoubted feature of reassurance. airports operating in competitive markets. As I said, we will continue to reflect on that. Although 6.30 pm we certainly need environmental measures that go beyond I would like to emphasise that our approach to the those that would be delivered by the market, economic Bill does not mean that we do not believe regulation is regulation is not the best way to deliver them. They necessary to address the environmental impact of aviation. should be applied in a proportionate way across the It is clear that protecting our environment does need sector, regardless of whether or not an airport happens regulatory intervention. However, airport economic to be subject to economic regulation. In our forthcoming regulation is not the right vehicle to deliver it. Environmental aviation policy framework we will give careful consideration regulation should be applied fairly and evenly across to providing that proportionate and effective environmental the whole sector, taking on board the impact of different legislation. I ask Members to reject the amendments. airports regardless of whether they are subject to economic regulation. When it comes to protecting our environment, Seema Malhotra: I thank the Minister for her comments. it does not make sense to treat one airport differently I appreciate having the opportunity today to air these from others merely because it is subject to economic issues, particularly the concerns of local residents in my regulation. constituency of Feltham and Heston, and thank my Environmental impacts are present at every airport hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington and it is fairer, more rational and more efficient to look (John McDonnell) for his poignant description of the at the aviation sector across the board in deciding what problems children face, particularly the impact of pollution regulatory intervention is needed on environmental matters. and noise on their quality of life. Having listened to the So I cannot support new clause 6, though I very much debate, I welcome the Minister’s recognition of the need share the concerns of the hon. Member for Feltham for greater clarity on who will be responsible and how and Heston about the noise impact of aircraft. we will mitigate local pollution and noise impacts. This is not the end of that debate, but I realise that there will The aviation policy framework which is due to be be value in waiting for the Government’s strategy on a adopted by March 2013 is a more efficient way to national sustainable aviation framework to see how we address environmental impacts across the whole of the might be able to move forward through that route. On aviation sector. It will be a serious document informed that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause. by extensive consultation and based on evidence. It will set a framework for enabling aviation to grow and play Clause, by leave, withdrawn. its part in economic growth and success, but subject to parameters which ensure that on issues such as noise Clause 1 and carbon, the sector plays its part in achieving our CAA’S GENERAL DUTY climate change goals and protecting the quality of life of local communities. Amendment proposed: 3, page 2, line 17, after ‘Chapter’, insert— I would like to reassure hon. Members that the CAA already takes environmental matters very seriously.Outside ‘(ea) the need to work with NATS, the Secretary of State, the Committee on Climate Change and air transport the sphere of economic regulation, the CAA is taking service providers towards meeting the United Kingdom’s forward a number of environment-focused initiatives, greenhouse gas emission reduction obligations as set as emphasised by Dr Barry Humphreys from the British out in the UK’s Carbon Budget, including the UK’s Air Transport Association in his evidence to the Committee. share of international aviation emissions’.— The CAA has recently finalised a consultation on a (Jim Fitzpatrick.) wide-ranging programme of work on the environment, Question put, That the amendment be made. including improving the sector’s CO2 performance. The House divided: Ayes 205, Noes 269. I draw the attention of the House to the important Division No. 539] [6.35 pm information provisions in clause 84 as a more effective way to mitigate environmental impacts by, as we heard AYES today, harnessing consumer power as part of our efforts Abbott, Ms Diane Austin, Ian to speed up progress to a switch to cleaner, quieter Abrahams, Debbie Bain, Mr William planes that emit less CO2. Alexander, Heidi Balls, rh Ed I cannot support amendments 6 and 7. They are both Allen, Mr Graham Barron, rh Mr Kevin significantly flawed. Amendment 6 has been tabled to Anderson, Mr David Bell, Sir Stuart the wrong clause for a start, and as my hon. Friend the Ashworth, Jonathan Benn, rh Hilary 1055 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1056

Betts, Mr Clive Hain, rh Mr Peter Perkins, Toby Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hamilton, Mr David Pound, Stephen Tami, Mark Blomfield, Paul Hamilton, Fabian Qureshi, Yasmin Thomas, Mr Gareth Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hanson, rh Mr David Reed, Mr Jamie Thornberry, Emily Brennan, Kevin Harman, rh Ms Harriet Reeves, Rachel Timms, rh Stephen Brown, Lyn Harris, Mr Tom Reynolds, Emma Trickett, Jon Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Havard, Mr Dai Reynolds, Jonathan Turner, Karl Brown, Mr Russell Healey, rh John Robertson, Angus Twigg, Derek Bryant, Chris Hendrick, Mark Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Twigg, Stephen Buck, Ms Karen Hepburn, Mr Stephen Rotheram, Steve Umunna, Mr Chuka Burden, Richard Heyes, David Roy, Mr Frank Walley, Joan Campbell, Mr Alan Hilling, Julie Roy, Lindsay Watson, Mr Tom Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodge, rh Margaret Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Watts, Mr Dave Caton, Martin Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Sarwar, Anas Whitehead, Dr Alan Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hoey, Kate Seabeck, Alison Williamson, Chris Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Shannon, Jim Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hosie, Stewart Sharma, Mr Virendra Winnick, Mr David Clwyd, rh Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Shuker, Gavin Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Skinner, Mr Dennis Wood, Mike Coffey, Ann James, Mrs Siân C. Slaughter, Mr Andy Woodcock, John Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Smith, rh Mr Andrew Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Smith, Angela Wright, David Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Smith, Nick Wright, Mr Iain Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Smith, Owen Cryer, John Jowell, rh Tessa Spellar, rh Mr John Tellers for the Ayes: Cunningham, Alex Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Stringer, Graham Susan Elan Jones and Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara Stuart, Ms Gisela Tom Blenkinsop Curran, Margaret Kendall, Liz Dakin, Nic Khan, rh Sadiq NOES Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian David, Mr Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Adams, Nigel Cash, Mr William Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Afriyie, Adam Clark, rh Greg Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan Aldous, Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony Amess, Mr David Coffey, Dr Thérèse Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi Andrew, Stuart Collins, Damian Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Colvile, Oliver Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Ian Bacon, Mr Richard Cox, Mr Geoffrey Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacShane, rh Mr Denis Baker, Norman Crockart, Mike Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Baker, Steve Crouch, Tracey Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Baldry, Tony Davies, Glyn Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Philip Dugher, Michael Mann, John Barclay, Stephen Davis, rh Mr David Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Barker, Gregory de Bois, Nick Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Barwell, Gavin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Bebb, Guto Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Benyon, Richard Dorries, Nadine Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Beresford, Sir Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, John Berry, Jake Drax, Richard Engel, Natascha McFadden, rh Mr Pat Bingham, Andrew Duddridge, James Esterson, Bill McGovern, Alison Blackman, Bob Duncan, rh Mr Alan Evans, Chris McGovern, Jim Blackwood, Nicola Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Farrelly, Paul McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Blunt, Mr Crispin Dunne, Mr Philip Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann Boles, Nick Ellis, Michael Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Bone, Mr Peter Ellison, Jane Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Bottomley, Sir Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Bradley, Karen Elphicke, Charlie Flynn, Paul Michael, rh Alun Brady, Mr Graham Eustice, George Fovargue, Yvonne Miliband, rh David Brake, rh Tom Evans, Graham Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Bray, Angie Evans, Jonathan Galloway, George Mitchell, Austin Brazier, Mr Julian Evennett, Mr David Gapes, Mike Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bridgen, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Gardiner, Barry Morden, Jessica Bruce, Fiona Fallon, Michael Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Buckland, Mr Robert Farron, Tim Glass, Pat Morris, Grahame M. Burley, Mr Aidan Field, Mark Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) Burns, Conor Foster, rh Mr Don Goggins, rh Paul Munn, Meg Burrowes, Mr David Fox,rhDrLiam Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Burt, Alistair Francois, rh Mr Mark Greatrex, Tom Nandy, Lisa Byles, Dan Freeman, George Green, Kate Nash, Pamela Cable, rh Vince Fullbrook, Lorraine Greenwood, Lilian O’Donnell, Fiona Cairns, Alun Fuller, Richard Griffith, Nia Owen, Albert Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Garnier, Mr Edward Gwynne, Andrew Paisley, Ian Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Garnier, Mark 1057 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1058

George, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Stewart, Iain Walker, Mr Charles Gibb, Mr Nick Maynard, Paul Stewart, Rory Walker, Mr Robin Gilbert, Stephen McCartney, Jason Streeter, Mr Gary Wallace, Mr Ben Glen, John McIntosh, Miss Anne Stride, Mel Wharton, James Goodwill, Mr Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stuart, Mr Graham Wheeler, Heather Graham, Richard McPartland, Stephen Stunell, Andrew White, Chris Grant, Mrs Helen Mensch, Louise Sturdy, Julian Whittaker, Craig Gray, Mr James Menzies, Mark Swales, Ian Whittingdale, Mr John Greening, rh Justine Mercer, Patrick Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wiggin, Bill Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen Swinson, Jo Williams, Mr Mark Griffiths, Andrew Miller, Maria Swire, rh Mr Hugo Williams, Roger Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Stephen Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Teather, Sarah Williamson, Gavin Hames, Duncan Moore, rh Michael Thurso, John Willott, Jenny Hammond, rh Mr Philip Morgan, Nicky Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Hammond, Stephen Morris, Anne Marie Tomlinson, Justin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hancock, Matthew Mosley, Stephen Tredinnick, David Wright, Simon Hands, Greg Mowat, David Truss, Elizabeth Young, rh Sir George Harper, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Uppal, Paul Zahawi, Nadhim Harrington, Richard Mundell, rh David Vara, Mr Shailesh Tellers for the Noes: Harris, Rebecca Munt, Tessa Vickers, Martin Stephen Crabb and Hart, Simon Murray, Sheryll Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Jeremy Wright Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Murrison, Dr Andrew Heath, Mr David Neill, Robert Heaton-Harris, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Question accordingly negatived. Hemming, John Newton, Sarah Henderson, Gordon Nokes, Caroline Clause 18 Hendry, Charles Norman, Jesse Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David LICENCE CONDITIONS Hollingbery, George Offord, Mr Matthew Amendment proposed: 9, page 13, line 17, at end Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Holloway, Mr Adam Opperman, Guy add— Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard ‘(3) A licence must include provisions requiring the holder of a Horwood, Martin Parish, Neil licence to develop passenger welfare plans.’.—(Jim Fitzpatrick.) Howarth, Mr Gerald Patel, Priti Question put, That the amendment be made. Howell, John Pawsey, Mark Hughes, rh Simon Penrose, John The House divided: Ayes 204, Noes 274. Huhne, rh Chris Pincher, Christopher Division No. 540] [6.48 pm Hunter, Mark Poulter, Dr Daniel Huppert, Dr Julian Prisk, Mr Mark AYES Hurd, Mr Nick Pugh, John Abbott, Ms Diane Coaker, Vernon Jackson, Mr Stewart Raab, Mr Dominic Abrahams, Debbie Coffey, Ann Javid, Sajid Randall, rh Mr John Alexander, Heidi Crausby, Mr David Jenkin, Mr Bernard Reckless, Mark Ali, Rushanara Creagh, Mary Johnson, Joseph Rees-Mogg, Jacob Allen, Mr Graham Creasy, Stella Jones, Andrew Reevell, Simon Anderson, Mr David Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Ashworth, Jonathan Cryer, John Jones, Mr Marcus Robertson, Mr Laurence Austin, Ian Cunningham, Alex Kawczynski, Daniel Rogerson, Dan Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Mr Jim Kirby, Simon Rosindell, Andrew Bain, Mr William Curran, Margaret Knight, rh Mr Greg Rudd, Amber Balls, rh Ed Dakin, Nic Kwarteng, Kwasi Ruffley, Mr David Barron, rh Mr Kevin Danczuk, Simon Laing, Mrs Eleanor Russell, Sir Bob Bell, Sir Stuart David, Mr Wayne Lancaster, Mark Rutley, David Benn, rh Hilary Davidson, Mr Ian Latham, Pauline Sandys, Laura Betts, Mr Clive Davies, Geraint Leadsom, Andrea Scott, Mr Lee Blackman-Woods, Roberta De Piero, Gloria Lee, Jessica Selous, Andrew Blomfield, Paul Denham, rh Mr John Lee, Dr Phillip Shapps, rh Grant Blunkett, rh Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Leech, Mr John Sharma, Alok Brennan, Kevin Docherty, Thomas Lefroy, Jeremy Shelbrooke, Alec Brown, Lyn Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Leslie, Charlotte Simmonds, Mark Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Doran, Mr Frank Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Skidmore, Chris Brown, Mr Russell Dowd, Jim Lewis, Brandon Smith, Miss Chloe Bryant, Chris Dromey, Jack Lewis, Dr Julian Smith, Henry Buck, Ms Karen Dugher, Michael Lilley, rh Mr Peter Smith, Julian Burden, Richard Eagle, Ms Angela Lloyd, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Campbell, Mr Alan Eagle, Maria Lopresti, Jack Soubry, Anna Campbell, Mr Ronnie Edwards, Jonathan Lord, Jonathan Spencer, Mr Mark Caton, Martin Efford, Clive Loughton, Tim Stanley, rh Sir John Chapman, Mrs Jenny Elliott, Julie Luff, Peter Stephenson, Andrew Clark, Katy Ellman, Mrs Louise Lumley, Karen Stevenson, John Clarke, rh Mr Tom Engel, Natascha Macleod, Mary Stewart, Bob Clwyd, rh Ann Esterson, Bill 1059 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1060

Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann NOES Farrelly, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Adams, Nigel Eustice, George Field, rh Mr Frank McKinnell, Catherine Afriyie, Adam Evans, Graham Fitzpatrick, Jim Mearns, Ian Aldous, Peter Evans, Jonathan Flello, Robert Michael, rh Alun Amess, Mr David Evennett, Mr David Flint, rh Caroline Miliband, rh David Andrew, Stuart Fabricant, Michael Flynn, Paul Miller, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Fallon, Michael Fovargue, Yvonne Mitchell, Austin Bacon, Mr Richard Farron, Tim Francis, Dr Hywel Moon, Mrs Madeleine Baker, Norman Field, Mark Galloway, George Morden, Jessica Baker, Steve Foster, rh Mr Don Gapes, Mike Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Baldry, Tony Fox,rhDrLiam Gardiner, Barry Morris, Grahame M. Baldwin, Harriett Francois, rh Mr Mark Gilmore, Sheila (Easington) Barclay, Stephen Fullbrook, Lorraine Glass, Pat Munn, Meg Barker, Gregory Fuller, Richard Glindon, Mrs Mary Murray, Ian Barwell, Gavin Garnier, Mr Edward Goggins, rh Paul Nandy, Lisa Bebb, Guto Garnier, Mark Goodman, Helen Nash, Pamela Benyon, Richard George, Andrew Greatrex, Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Beresford, Sir Paul Gibb, Mr Nick Green, Kate Owen, Albert Berry, Jake Gilbert, Stephen Greenwood, Lilian Paisley, Ian Bingham, Andrew Glen, John Griffith, Nia Perkins, Toby Blackman, Bob Goodwill, Mr Robert Gwynne, Andrew Pound, Stephen Blackwood, Nicola Graham, Richard Hain, rh Mr Peter Qureshi, Yasmin Blunt, Mr Crispin Grant, Mrs Helen Hamilton, Mr David Reed, Mr Jamie Boles, Nick Gray, Mr James Hamilton, Fabian Reeves, Rachel Bone, Mr Peter Greening, rh Justine Hanson, rh Mr David Reynolds, Emma Bottomley, Sir Peter Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Harman, rh Ms Harriet Reynolds, Jonathan Bradley, Karen Griffiths, Andrew Harris, Mr Tom Robertson, Angus Brady, Mr Graham Gyimah, Mr Sam Havard, Mr Dai Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brake, rh Tom Halfon, Robert Healey, rh John Rotheram, Steve Bray, Angie Hames, Duncan Hendrick, Mark Roy, Mr Frank Brazier, Mr Julian Hammond, rh Mr Philip Hepburn, Mr Stephen Roy, Lindsay Bridgen, Andrew Hammond, Stephen Heyes, David Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Browne, Mr Jeremy Hancock, Matthew Hilling, Julie Sarwar, Anas Bruce, Fiona Hands, Greg Hodge, rh Margaret Seabeck, Alison Bruce, rh Malcolm Harper, Mr Mark Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Shannon, Jim Buckland, Mr Robert Harrington, Richard Hoey, Kate Sharma, Mr Virendra Burley, Mr Aidan Harris, Rebecca Hopkins, Kelvin Shuker, Gavin Burns, Conor Hart, Simon Hosie, Stewart Skinner, Mr Dennis Burrowes, Mr David Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Howarth, rh Mr George Slaughter, Mr Andy Burt, Alistair Heath, Mr David Hunt, Tristram Smith, rh Mr Andrew Byles, Dan Heaton-Harris, Chris Irranca-Davies, Huw Smith, Angela Cable, rh Vince Hemming, John James, Mrs Siân C. Smith, Nick Cairns, Alun Henderson, Gordon Jamieson, Cathy Smith, Owen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hendry, Charles Johnson, rh Alan Spellar, rh Mr John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hinds, Damian Johnson, Diana Stringer, Graham Cash, Mr William Hollingbery, George Jones, Graham Stuart, Ms Gisela Clark, rh Greg Hollobone, Mr Philip Jowell, rh Tessa Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Holloway, Mr Adam Keeley, Barbara Tami, Mark Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hopkins, Kris Kendall, Liz Thomas, Mr Gareth Collins, Damian Horwood, Martin Khan, rh Sadiq Thornberry, Emily Colvile, Oliver Howarth, Mr Gerald Lavery, Ian Timms, rh Stephen Cox, Mr Geoffrey Howell, John Lazarowicz, Mark Trickett, Jon Crabb, Stephen Hughes, rh Simon Leslie, Chris Turner, Karl Crockart, Mike Huhne, rh Chris Lewis, Mr Ivan Twigg, Derek Crouch, Tracey Huppert, Dr Julian Lloyd, Tony Twigg, Stephen Davies, Glyn Hurd, Mr Nick Lucas, Caroline Umunna, Mr Chuka Davies, Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Lucas, Ian Walley, Joan Davis, rh Mr David Javid, Sajid Mactaggart, Fiona Watts, Mr Dave de Bois, Nick Jenkin, Mr Bernard Mahmood, Shabana Whitehead, Dr Alan Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Malhotra, Seema Williamson, Chris Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Andrew Mann, John Wilson, Phil Dorries, Nadine Jones, Mr David Marsden, Mr Gordon Winnick, Mr David Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr Marcus McCabe, Steve Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Drax, Richard Kawczynski, Daniel McCann, Mr Michael Wood, Mike Duddridge, James Kirby, Simon McCarthy, Kerry Woodcock, John Duncan, rh Mr Alan Knight, rh Mr Greg McDonagh, Siobhain Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kwarteng, Kwasi McDonnell, John Wright, David Dunne, Mr Philip Laing, Mrs Eleanor McFadden, rh Mr Pat Wright, Mr Iain Ellis, Michael Lancaster, Mark McGovern, Alison Tellers for the Ayes: Ellison, Jane Latham, Pauline McGovern, Jim Susan Elan Jones and Ellwood, Mr Tobias Leadsom, Andrea McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Tom Blenkinsop Elphicke, Charlie Lee, Jessica 1061 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1062

Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew 7pm Leech, Mr John Rudd, Amber Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day). Lefroy, Jeremy Ruffley, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Russell, Sir Bob The Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary for Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura (Standing Order No. 83E). Lewis, Dr Julian Scott, Mr Lee Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Clause 63 Long, Naomi Sharma, Alok Lopresti, Jack Shelbrooke, Alec COMPETITION ACT 1998: SUPPLEMENTARY Lord, Jonathan Simmonds, Mark Amendment made: 14, page 38, line 42, at end insert— Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris ‘( ) In this section “relevant 1998 Act functions” means Luff, Peter Smith, Miss Chloe functions specified in section 62(2).’.—(Mrs Villiers.) Lumley, Karen Smith, Henry Macleod, Mary Smith, Julian Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Sir Robert Clause 70 Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna McCartney, Jason Spencer, Mr Mark JOINT OPERATORS OF AIRPORT AREAS McIntosh, Miss Anne Stanley, rh Sir John McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Amendment made: 15, page 42, line 28, at end insert— McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John ‘( ) Regulations under section 9 may include provision about Mensch, Louise Stewart, Bob when two or more persons are or are not to be treated for the Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain purposes of this Part as jointly having such responsibility. Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Rory ( ) The CAA’s power under section 10 to make a determination Metcalfe, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary includes power to determine whether, in a particular case, two or Miller, Maria Stride, Mel more persons have such responsibility.’.—(Mrs Villiers.) Mills, Nigel Stuart, Mr Graham Milton, Anne Stunell, Andrew Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sturdy, Julian Clause 77 Moore, rh Michael Swales, Ian Morgan, Nicky Swayne, rh Mr Desmond CROWN APPLICATION Morris, Anne Marie Swinson, Jo Amendment made: 19, page 46, line 5, after ‘functions’, Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo insert ‘— Mowat, David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter (a) section7(2) (requirement to make market power Mulholland, Greg Teather, Sarah determination) does not apply in respect of area C, Mundell, rh David Thurso, John Munt, Tessa Timpson, Mr Edward (b) section14(4) (deemed application for licence where airport area becomes dominant) does not apply in Murray, Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin relation to the operator, and Murrison, Dr Andrew Truss, Elizabeth Neill, Robert Tyrie, Mr Andrew (c) ’.—(Mrs Villiers.) Newmark, Mr Brooks Uppal, Paul Newton, Sarah Vickers, Martin Clause 84 Nokes, Caroline Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Norman, Jesse Walker, Mr Charles ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATION Nuttall, Mr David Walker, Mr Robin Offord, Mr Matthew Wallace, Mr Ben Amendment made: 16, page 52, line 9, after first ‘or’, Ollerenshaw, Eric Wharton, James insert ‘proposed’.—(Mrs Villiers.) Opperman, Guy Wheeler, Heather Amendment proposed: 6, page 52, line 11, at end insert— Ottaway, Richard White, Chris ‘(d) greenhouse gas emissions resulting from the use of Parish, Neil Whittaker, Craig international air transport services from a civil Patel, Priti Whittingdale, Mr John airport and domestic air transport services to or from Pawsey, Mark Wiggin, Bill a civil airport.’.—(Jim Fitzpatrick.) Penrose, John Williams, Mr Mark Phillips, Stephen Williams, Roger Question put, That the amendment be made. Pincher, Christopher Williams, Stephen The House divided: Ayes 203, Noes 273. Poulter, Dr Daniel Williamson, Gavin Division No. 541] [7.01 pm Prisk, Mr Mark Willott, Jenny Pugh, John Wilson, Mr Rob AYES Raab, Mr Dominic Wollaston, Dr Sarah Randall, rh Mr John Wright, Jeremy Abbott, Ms Diane Bell, Sir Stuart Reckless, Mark Wright, Simon Abrahams, Debbie Benn, rh Hilary Rees-Mogg, Jacob Young, rh Sir George Alexander, Heidi Betts, Mr Clive Reevell, Simon Zahawi, Nadhim Ali, Rushanara Blackman-Woods, Roberta Reid, Mr Alan Allen, Mr Graham Blomfield, Paul Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tellers for the Noes: Anderson, Mr David Blunkett, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Mr Shailesh Vara and Ashworth, Jonathan Brennan, Kevin Rogerson, Dan Mark Hunter Austin, Ian Brown, Lyn Bailey, Mr Adrian Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Question accordingly negatived. Bain, Mr William Brown, Mr Russell Balls, rh Ed Bryant, Chris Barron, rh Mr Kevin Buck, Ms Karen 1063 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1064

Burden, Richard Hodge, rh Margaret Sarwar, Anas Turner, Karl Campbell, Mr Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Seabeck, Alison Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hoey, Kate Shannon, Jim Twigg, Stephen Caton, Martin Hopkins, Kelvin Sharma, Mr Virendra Umunna, Mr Chuka Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hosie, Stewart Shuker, Gavin Walley, Joan Clark, Katy Howarth, rh Mr George Skinner, Mr Dennis Watts, Mr Dave Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hunt, Tristram Slaughter, Mr Andy Whitehead, Dr Alan Clwyd, rh Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Smith, rh Mr Andrew Williamson, Chris Coaker, Vernon James, Mrs Siân C. Smith, Angela Wilson, Phil Coffey, Ann Jamieson, Cathy Smith, Nick Winnick, Mr David Crausby, Mr David Johnson, rh Alan Smith, Owen Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Spellar, rh Mr John Wood, Mike Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Stringer, Graham Woodcock, John Cruddas, Jon Jowell, rh Tessa Stuart, Ms Gisela Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Cryer, John Keeley, Barbara Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wright, David Cunningham, Alex Kendall, Liz Tami, Mark Wright, Mr Iain Cunningham, Mr Jim Khan, rh Sadiq Thomas, Mr Gareth Curran, Margaret Lavery, Ian Thornberry, Emily Tellers for the Ayes: Dakin, Nic Lazarowicz, Mark Timms, rh Stephen Tom Blenkinsop and Danczuk, Simon Leslie, Chris Trickett, Jon Susan Elan Jones David, Mr Wayne Lewis, Mr Ivan Davidson, Mr Ian Lloyd, Tony NOES Davies, Geraint Long, Naomi De Piero, Gloria Lucas, Caroline Adams, Nigel Cox, Mr Geoffrey Denham, rh Mr John Lucas, Ian Afriyie, Adam Crabb, Stephen Dobson, rh Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Aldous, Peter Crockart, Mike Docherty, Thomas Mahmood, Shabana Amess, Mr David Crouch, Tracey Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Malhotra, Seema Andrew, Stuart Davies, Glyn Doran, Mr Frank Mann, John Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davies, Philip Dowd, Jim Marsden, Mr Gordon Bacon, Mr Richard Davis, rh Mr David Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Baker, Norman de Bois, Nick Dugher, Michael McCann, Mr Michael Baker, Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry Baldry, Tony Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Eagle, Maria McDonagh, Siobhain Baldwin, Harriett Dorries, Nadine Edwards, Jonathan McDonnell, John Barclay, Stephen Doyle-Price, Jackie Efford, Clive McFadden, rh Mr Pat Barker, Gregory Drax, Richard Elliott, Julie McGovern, Alison Barwell, Gavin Duddridge, James Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Jim Bebb, Guto Duncan, rh Mr Alan Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Benyon, Richard Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Beresford, Sir Paul Dunne, Mr Philip Farrelly, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Berry, Jake Ellis, Michael Field, rh Mr Frank McKinnell, Catherine Bingham, Andrew Ellison, Jane Fitzpatrick, Jim Mearns, Ian Blackman, Bob Ellwood, Mr Tobias Flello, Robert Michael, rh Alun Blackwood, Nicola Elphicke, Charlie Flint, rh Caroline Miliband, rh David Blunt, Mr Crispin Eustice, George Flynn, Paul Miller, Andrew Boles, Nick Evans, Graham Fovargue, Yvonne Mitchell, Austin Bone, Mr Peter Evans, Jonathan Francis, Dr Hywel Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bottomley, Sir Peter Evennett, Mr David Gapes, Mike Morden, Jessica Bradley, Karen Fabricant, Michael Gardiner, Barry Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Brady, Mr Graham Fallon, Michael Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Brake, rh Tom Farron, Tim Glass, Pat (Easington) Bray, Angie Field, Mark Glindon, Mrs Mary Munn, Meg Brazier, Mr Julian Foster, rh Mr Don Goggins, rh Paul Murray, Ian Bridgen, Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Goodman, Helen Nandy, Lisa Browne, Mr Jeremy Francois, rh Mr Mark Greatrex, Tom Nash, Pamela Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George Green, Kate O’Donnell, Fiona Bruce, rh Malcolm Fullbrook, Lorraine Greenwood, Lilian Owen, Albert Buckland, Mr Robert Fuller, Richard Griffith, Nia Paisley, Ian Burley, Mr Aidan Garnier, Mr Edward Gwynne, Andrew Perkins, Toby Burns, Conor Garnier, Mark Hain, rh Mr Peter Pound, Stephen Burrowes, Mr David George, Andrew Hamilton, Mr David Qureshi, Yasmin Burt, Alistair Gibb, Mr Nick Hamilton, Fabian Reed, Mr Jamie Byles, Dan Gilbert, Stephen Hanson, rh Mr David Reeves, Rachel Cable, rh Vince Glen, John Harman, rh Ms Harriet Reynolds, Emma Cairns, Alun Goodwill, Mr Robert Harris, Mr Tom Reynolds, Jonathan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Graham, Richard Havard, Mr Dai Robertson, Angus Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Grant, Mrs Helen Healey, rh John Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Clark, rh Greg Gray, Mr James Hendrick, Mark Rotheram, Steve Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Greening, rh Justine Hepburn, Mr Stephen Roy, Mr Frank Coffey, Dr Thérèse Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Heyes, David Roy, Lindsay Collins, Damian Griffiths, Andrew Hilling, Julie Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Colvile, Oliver Gyimah, Mr Sam 1065 Civil Aviation Bill25 APRIL 2012 Civil Aviation Bill 1066

Halfon, Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Wharton, James Hames, Duncan Miller, Maria Stride, Mel Wheeler, Heather Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Stunell, Andrew Whittaker, Craig Hancock, Matthew Mitchell, rh Mr Sturdy, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Hands, Greg Andrew Swales, Ian Wiggin, Bill Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williams, Mr Mark Harrington, Richard Morgan, Nicky Swire, rh Mr Hugo Williams, Roger Harris, Rebecca Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Stephen Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Teather, Sarah Williamson, Gavin Haselhurst, rh Sir Mowat, David Thurso, John Willott, Jenny Alan Mulholland, Greg Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Heath, Mr David Mundell, rh David Tomlinson, Justin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Heaton-Harris, Chris Munt, Tessa Truss, Elizabeth Wright, Jeremy Hemming, John Murray, Sheryll Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wright, Simon Henderson, Gordon Murrison, Dr Andrew Uppal, Paul Yeo, Mr Tim Hendry, Charles Neill, Robert Vickers, Martin Young, rh Sir George Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Zahawi, Nadhim Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Walker, Mr Charles Tellers for the Noes: Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Walker, Mr Robin Mr Shailesh Vara and Holloway, Mr Adam Norman, Jesse Wallace, Mr Ben Mark Hunter Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Horwood, Martin Offord, Mr Matthew Howarth, Mr Gerald Ollerenshaw, Eric Question accordingly negatived. Howell, John Opperman, Guy Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, Richard Huhne, rh Chris Parish, Neil Schedule 11 Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark AVIATION SECURITY DIRECTIONS ETC: MINOR AND Jackson, Mr Stewart Penrose, John CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Amendments made: 17, page 110, line 30, after ‘aircraft)’ Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pincher, Christopher insert ‘— Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark (a) ’. Jones, Mr David Pugh, John Amendment 18, page 110, line 31, at end insert ‘, and Jones, Mr Marcus Raab, Mr Dominic (b) for “that Authority” substitute “the CAA”.’.— Kawczynski, Daniel Randall, rh Mr John (Mrs Villiers.) Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bill to be read a Third time tomorrow. Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): On a Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Hugh point of order, Mr Speaker. Herman Henry Diaz, a Latham, Pauline Robertson, Mr Laurence leading Fensuagro Colombian trade union activist, is Leadsom, Andrea Rogerson, Dan suspected of having been forcibly disappeared a few Lee, Jessica Rosindell, Andrew days ago. He was organising a delegation of activists Lee, Dr Phillip Rudd, Amber from the Putumayo department. He was last seen in the Leech, Mr John Ruffley, Mr David Puerto Vega area, a heavily militarised region, which Lefroy, Jeremy Russell, Sir Bob raises real concerns that he may have been detained, or Leslie, Charlotte Rutley, David worse, by the Colombian army, which has form on this. Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sandys, Laura I have personally met Mr Diaz. Mr Speaker, may I ask, Lewis, Brandon Scott, Mr Lee through you, whether the Foreign Secretary would be Lewis, Dr Julian Selous, Andrew prepared to make immediate representations calling for Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shapps, rh Grant his release and for the Colombian authorities to guarantee Lloyd, Stephen Sharma, Alok Lopresti, Jack Shelbrooke, Alec his safety? Lord, Jonathan Simmonds, Mark Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Luff, Peter Smith, Miss Chloe his point of order. I cannot speak for the Foreign Lumley, Karen Smith, Henry Secretary on this matter, and I have no knowledge that Macleod, Mary Smith, Julian the Foreign Secretary is present in the House today, or Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Sir Robert no certain knowledge to the contrary. However, knowing Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna the way in which these things work and the efficiency of McCartney, Jason Spencer, Mr Mark Foreign Office mandarins, I confidently predict that the McIntosh, Miss Anne Stanley, rh Sir John content of the hon. Gentleman’s point of order will McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew wing its way to the Foreign Secretary or his officials McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John very soon. More particularly, in the interim, the hon. Mensch, Louise Stewart, Bob Gentleman’s concern is on the record, and I thank him Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Rory for raising it. 1067 25 APRIL 2012 Police and Crime Commissioners 1068

Police and Crime Commissioners crime commissioners. Like the Electoral Commission, I believe that the Government have failed to recognise the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House importance of such material. do now adjourn.—(Mr Francois.) Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Government’s 7.14 pm assertion is that there will be a central website on which all our constituents can readily access information about Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): We on this side the candidates. Has the hon. Gentleman examined the of the House were not in favour of the introduction of difficulties that that could pose, certainly for my constituents police and crime commissioners, but Parliament agreed in Ceredigion and across the Dyfed-Powys area who that they should be introduced and the first elections have no internet provision? will be held on 15 November. It is imperative that, in the run-up to the elections, every effort should be made to Mr David: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, familiarise the electorate with the role of PCCs, with the and I agree with him completely. In the last Government, candidates and with the electoral system that will be I was, among other things, the deputy Minister with used—namely, the supplementary vote. responsibility for digital inclusion. I know only too well Members will recall that the elections for PCCs were that some 7 million adults in England—excluding originally planned for May this year, but the Government London—and Wales do not have internet access and decided to delay them until November. The Home have not used the internet at all in the past 12 months. Secretary explained to the House that more time was Sadly, those people will not have the same access to needed before the elections to ensure that the general information as those individuals who have digital computer public were aware of the role of commissioners and of access. The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that it is who would be standing for election in their local area. people in rural areas and the elderly who will be All well and good, we might think, but here we are, less disadvantaged, as they will not have the same access to than seven months before the elections, and as far as I the kind of information that I believe they should have. can tell, the Government are making painfully slow progress towards deciding what measures will be put in Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Does my hon. place to facilitate them. It is vital that such measures be Friend agree that having a website is not bad in itself, put in place as soon as is humanly possible, to ensure but that it is a radical departure from how we usually that the elections are part of the democratic process. run elections, particularly when the elections are new It is a well established principle that all the necessary and are taking place at a different time of year under an secondary legislation should be in place at least six unfamiliar voting system? months before a poll. We are moving close to 15 May, so will the Government make a firm commitment that Mr David: Yes, my hon. Friend makes entirely valid the necessary secondary legislation will be in place by points. Nobody is against having a Home Office website that date? with information about the candidates, but that must be as well as, not instead of, other forms of information. I Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): My hon. Friend think that the Government have made a mistake here. might also wish to ask the Government whether it is The Government have, albeit wrongly, set their face indeed the Cabinet Office that— against this proposal, so in the brief time available, I will not go over old arguments. Instead, I want to focus Mr Speaker: Order. May I say gently to the right hon. on a number of areas in respect of which I hope the Gentleman that it is not customary or desirable for Government will listen and improve their draft legislation. Members to intervene from the Front Bench in these Before I go on to those points, I would like the Government Adjournment debates? I gave an indication in response to assure us that the website will be accessible to all and to a point of order yesterday of the distinction between that the information on it will be provided in minority an intervention and a speech in other people’s Adjournment languages. In particular, as a Welshman, I would hope debates, but that ruling referred to Back Benchers. This that a Welsh language version of the website will be is a very unusual practice, and the right hon. Gentleman available and that Welsh language speakers will be is not normally given to unusual practices, as far as I am available for the helpline. Perhaps the Minister can aware. provide information about that. I also hope that the information will be provided in alternative formats—in Mr David: That is absolutely correct, Mr Speaker. Braille or in large print, for example. I shall now move My right hon. Friend is not known for unusual practices on to focus on other areas where the Government could in any shape or form. I think that he was about to make improve their draft legislation. a fair point, however. It is strange that the Minister who is to respond to the debate is not from the Home Office, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the hon. when it is the Home Office that has responsibility for Gentleman feel that the election of a police or crime the matter under consideration. Instead, we have a commissioner should be based not on popularity alone, Minister from the Cabinet Office. Perhaps he will explain but on experience, ability and years of service? Does he the reason for this when he responds to the debate. have any thoughts on how that could be brought into The Minister—although he is from the Cabinet Office— the process in such a way that the bright person gets the will be aware that genuine concern has been expressed job because they have the ability to do it well? by Members in this House and the other place that the Government do not intend to have a publicly funded Mr David: I think it is important that the electorate mailing or booklet distributed locally, giving details of know what the position involves and the job entails, as the candidates standing in the elections for police and well as the qualities of the respective individuals being 1069 Police and Crime Commissioners25 APRIL 2012 Police and Crime Commissioners 1070 put forward. I am a democrat; I have faith in the they will take place concurrently, and I know that the electorate to make the appropriate decisions, provided, two sets of elections will be overseen by two separate of course, that they have been given the appropriate Departments, the Home Office and the Department for information on which to base their decisions. That is Communities and Local Government. Indeed, it is possible why I believe this debate is so important. that a third will be involved. My right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) mentioned the Cabinet To return to the specifics of the draft legislation, Office earlier. How will it be involved in all this? That is under the Government’s plans, police area returning yet another ingredient in the mix. officers—PAROs for short—will accept or reject material from candidates standing for election on 15 November. Both the mayoral and the PCC elections will use the They will check and approve the material they receive, supplementary vote system, and I hope that voters will and then pass it on to the Home Office so that it can be presented with two differently designed ballot papers. publish that material on its website. It is pretty clear to That is important, because, as I have said, at least two me that this will be a sensitive role for these officers, so I Departments will be directly involved in running these urge the Government to ensure that the criteria by concurrent elections. Government co-operation and a which PAROs have to assess the material are set out joint approach will be necessary, so that the electorate clearly and in detail—much more clearly, I would suggest, are not confused by the process. There will also be room than is the case in the draft secondary legislation. for considerable confusion if PCC candidates are expected to communicate with voters through a website while Secondly, the Electoral Commission will, to its credit, mayoral candidates rely on locally distributed booklets, produce a booklet for every household where PCC given that the elections will take place on the same day. elections are taking place. This is particularly important Whether we like it or not—and I consider the position because the elections will take place at an unfamiliar to be very unsatisfactory—there will inevitably be some time of year in November, as my hon. Friend the confusion, because the basic means of communication Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) has said, will be provided through different mediums. I am keen and using a voting system—the supplementary vote for those difficulties to be minimised. system—that most people will not have used before. May I have an assurance from the Government that It is possible that the Home Office will find all this sufficient resources will be provided to the Electoral work a little too much. We are all aware of the difficulties Commission for this information dissemination work to that it is experiencing. I respectfully ask the Minister to be carried out properly? suggest to his colleagues in the Home Office that they should consider having a word with the Deputy Prime Generally, it is essential that guidance for candidates, Minister to see whether it would be possible to bring in agents, campaigners and returning officers is provided some Cabinet Office experience. Being entirely objective, well in advance of the elections in November. The the Minister knows a heck of a lot more about these Government should note that the Electoral Commission issues than the Home Office—which is supposed to be wants most of these guidelines in place very soon so conducting the elections—and I suspect that that is why that they can be published and spread widely three he is here tonight. months before the start of the regulated period. Of particular concern is the need to publish the limits on Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): One issue that the amount of money that PCC candidates can spend has not yet been clarified is the future of Victim Support, during the last few weeks of the campaign, and I would some of whose representatives visited me in my constituency hope that the spending limit for each specific police last week. They expressed concern about what the area—not a complicated calculation and a formula—is implications for the expertise of the existing 7,000 volunteers, set out on the face of the secondary legislation. That is and about possible costs, bureaucracy and fragmentation the way to ensure clarity. of the service. Perhaps the Home Office will consider that as well. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): The hon. Gentleman makes some good points. What worries Mr David: That is a fair point. Similar representations me is that there will be no publicly funded mailing, and have been made to me. There is genuine concern among that individual candidates will be able to issue their own people involved in Victim Support about the fact that literature. That, surely, creates the possibility that the the police commissioners will have that responsibility in person who can afford the most literature will win the addition to their other responsibilities. We are, after all, election, which is profoundly unfair. talking about finite resources, and the possibility that moneys allocated for one purpose will be used for another purpose as well is causing concern. However, I Mr David: The hon. Gentleman’s point reinforces the am sure that the Minister will be able to allay the need for clearly defined limits to ensure that there is no concerns expressed by my hon. Friend and, indeed, confusion or ambiguity, and that every candidate in others outside the House. every police area is aware of the limits that apply to him It is essential that the PCC elections on 15 November or her. There should also be stipulations governing are successful. There must be a good turnout, therefore, third parties to prevent candidates from receiving indirect and the electorate must be well informed. That is why financial support. this debate is important, and I hope the Government I am acutely aware that, in all probability, mayoral will get a move on and get the draft legislation made elections will take place on the same day as the PCC into final proposals that they then put before the House elections in some parts of England. Obviously no one so everybody is clear where we stand and we can make can foretell what will happen in the elections that will be genuine preparations for successful democratic elections held in a number of English cities, but the odds are that on 15 November. 1071 Police and Crime Commissioners25 APRIL 2012 Police and Crime Commissioners 1072

7.30 pm Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab) rose— The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman who secured the Harper): First, let me say that unlike in the previous debate spoke for just over half the time available, so let Government, Ministers from different Departments in me address at least some of his questions before taking this Government speak to each other. We work closely. I interventions from other Members. am here tonight because I work closely with my colleagues in the Home Office. The Cabinet Office has overall Our view is that top-down control, with chief constables responsibility for electoral policy—owned by the Deputy looking upwards to the Home Office, did not work Prime Minister—and I work closely with Home Office particularly well, so we want locally democratically Ministers. My officials in the Cabinet Office work very accountable figures setting policy. However, operational closely with Home Office officials. We are a very joined-up matters will, of course, remain the responsibility of the operation. That may be a new notion to the hon. chief constable. There will be police and crime panels to Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), as he served in the ensure that there is scrutiny and transparency. dysfunctional last Labour Government where the Prime The hon. Gentleman made a number of points about Minister and Chancellor could not bring themselves to the elections themselves and I shall deal with some of speak to each other, but things have changed since the them in turn. As I said, I am pleased that so many last election. Members of this House and the other place are stepping forward and that we are seeing candidates from across Mr David: I am saddened, and rather surprised, that the country.I think we will have a good slate of experienced the Minister should make a factional and crudely political people. To pick up on the point made by the hon. point in a debate that is about democratic involvement Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I believe that a and popular participation. number of people who have had experience in the criminal justice system, some of whom are former police I am also surprised by what the Minister said about officers but others of whom have been involved in that the Home Office. Taking his logic to its conclusion, he system, have put their names forward. So I think that or one of his departmental colleagues should answer the public will be offered a good range of candidates— questions on PCC elections at Home Office questions, people with practical experience and people with policy- but that is not the case. making experience. Like the hon. Member for Caerphilly, I trust the public to be able to sort out the qualities that Mr Harper: The Home Office leads on policy on they want in police and crime commissioners and to PCCs, but that also involves elections. The situation is make the right decisions in November. just the same as in respect of the Department for The Government agree that it is important that Communities and Local Government: I work closely candidates get their message out. To pick up on the with my colleagues in that Department, and its officials point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon work closely with my officials. We have joined-up policy and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), candidates obviously across the Government. That is sensible. have a responsibility to do that themselves. Of course it As the hon. Gentleman raised the issue of departmental is not the case that candidates can spend a limitless responsibility—and the right hon. Member for Delyn amount of money; there will be limits on expenditure, (Mr Hanson) tried to raise it—I thought it was worth which will be broadly proportionate to those for other making that initial point in response. I was also going to types of election. So candidates will be able to spend say that I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his some money, but they will not be able to spend limitless very complimentary words about me; I wish to be sums. We thought carefully about how we could assist suitably gracious about what he said. candidates in doing that, and provisions will be made in The directly elected PCCs represent a radical reform the draft legislation to enable candidates, as the hon. of policing. The hon. Gentleman’s party was not initially Member for Caerphilly said, to publish information on in favour of them, but I am glad that now that Parliament the centrally funded website. has passed the legislation, it is participating in this In addition, if the public are not able to use the process. Indeed, many prominent Labour figures will, website, they will be able to call a freephone number perhaps, be candidates in these elections, including Lord and request, on demand, printed information to be sent Prescott, who has now been converted to the merits of to them directly. We recognise that this is a novel PCCs and the importance of giving more power and approach, which has not been tried before, but we think control to the public—letting the public choose the that that blend of online and on-demand information people who set policing priorities, rather than their will be very helpful. The website and the print-on-demand being set by the Home Office. phone number will be printed on polling cards sent out The PCC elections will be very valuable, and the in advance of the election. public will be very interested in them. The police.uk website has had 47 million hits. The public are interested Mr Mark Williams rose— in local crime matters and how police officers conduct their work and how they are deployed. I know from Mr Harper: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will conversations with my constituents and chief constable adopt the same stricture as I did in respect of Labour that people are very interested. I therefore think people Members. Let me deal with the points that the hon. will get engaged in this process, despite the fact that the Member for Caerphilly raised, as it is his debate, and if elections will be held in November. There will be a we have time, I will be happy to take further interventions. decent turnout, I believe. Polling cards will contain that information, so it will be widely distributed to voters. The Electoral Commission, Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op) rose— with which we are working closely, will include that 1073 Police and Crime Commissioners25 APRIL 2012 Police and Crime Commissioners 1074 contact and access information in its own literature—indeed, We have, of course, worked closely with the Electoral this will be in the booklet that it is distributing to Commission, the Association of Electoral Administrators, households, which will provide some information about returning officers, the Local Government Association, the elections and the supplementary vote system. the Welsh Government, the Wales Office and the Association of Police Authorities, among others, to The hon. Member for Caerphilly raised the issue of check that the legislation is in good order and that it internet access. Although 77% or so of the population will work in practice. Preparations have started. The can use the internet, we recognise that there are people police area returning officers will be administering the who cannot; my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion elections across the police force areas, a number of (Mr Williams) referred to people who live in his constituency meetings have taken place and the preparations are in in this regard. That is why we have the combination of good order. online and print-on-demand information. I am pleased to tell the hon. Member for Caerphilly, as I anticipated The hon. Gentleman asked one or two other questions that he would ask about this, that the information will and I have dealt with his question about the language. be available in both English and Welsh. Candidates will He raised some concerns about the website and I can be able to submit their information to go on the website make it very clear that the Government have ensured in either language, and we will make sure that the that they will have no role at all in the content on the website content and the printed copies are available in website, which will be dealt with by the police area both languages. We will of course make sure that the returning officers. The Government’s role is to set up information is available in a range of accessible formats the function and ensure that the information is posted; for those voters who have some form of disability, to we will not have any editorial control at all, as is make sure that we maximise the opportunities for people appropriate. to see the information. Mr David: I accept entirely what the Minister is Let me deal with why we have chosen that option saying, but I was making the point that it is important rather than completely free mailings paid for by the for any Government—whatever their political complexion taxpayer. We did consider funding mailings of the type —not to be accused of any kind of interference. That is used for UK parliamentary and European elections. We why the clarity of the secondary legislation is so important. are minded to conclude—this is our preferred option on the website, rather than our final position—that at a Mr Harper: I can confirm that the legislation will be time when budgets are tight, it is difficult to justify drafted—I am sure this will be tested when it is debated those mailings for PCC elections. There are also some in the House—to ensure that it is clear that there will be logistical difficulties involved in producing a candidates no opportunity for the Government to have in any role booklet, such as those used for mayoral elections. The in deciding the content of the information. That would difficulties are partly to do with the size of the PCC clearly not be appropriate. areas and having to produce the 41 booklets simultaneously; this would be very difficult to co-ordinate across the Let me come to the final point about victim support country. We think that the approach we have adopted is services, which were mentioned by the hon. Member for a proportionate one that will give people access to the Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). A move has been information. We will, of course, look at the experience proposed—the consultation by the Ministry of Justice in practice; we will look very carefully at what happens. finished just a few days ago—to move from a national I am sure that hon. Members in this House will not be to a local model. The Government’s view, on which we backward in coming forward about any issues, and I am consulted in our consultation document, is that rather sure that the hon. Gentleman will be sure to tell us of than Whitehall attempting to pick those services and issues in his area in Wales. We will look at this carefully fund them across the country, the police and crime but we are confident that we have adopted a sensible commissioners, who will be accountable to local people, approach; we have worked closely with stakeholders will do a better job of making those judgments. I have and we think it will be successful. read through the Ministry of Justice consultation document in full, as a local victim support organisation wrote to As I mentioned, the Electoral Commission will be me in my capacity as a constituency MP and I wanted working on some public awareness information. This is to ensure, having worked with Victim Support in the in its plan, so it is in the money that it has bid for and past, that I was confident about what would happen. I had approved by the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral have been through the consultation document and I Commission and by the House. This is something that think the proposal is a good one that will mean more has been in the Electoral Commission’s programme, so money gets spent, rather than less, and that decisions I am confident that it will be effective. will be taken more locally. That makes sense, rather than trying to have a one-size-fits-all policy. The Ministry The hon. Member for Caerphilly also asked about of Justice will consider the responses to the consultation the conduct rules. The elections, as he said, will take very closely to see whether it needs to alter its policy in place in every police force area in England and Wales any way. outside London, although it is worth saying that the first time that people will be able to vote for the directly I think that I have answered all of the points raised by elected person who will control policing will be in the the hon. Member for Caerphilly, so, as we have one or London mayoral election, now that the Mayor has that two moments, do any of my colleagues who jumped up responsibility. The detail for the other elections will be to intervene earlier want to do so before I sit down? in the secondary legislation that we intend to lay before the House shortly. I can confirm that “shortly” means Mr Mark Williams: I thank my hon. Friend for what by 15 May, so that legislation will be laid before the he said about the Welsh language, which is very important House six months before the elections. in large parts of Wales. What costings were made to 1075 Police and Crime Commissioners25 APRIL 2012 Police and Crime Commissioners 1076

[Mr Mark Williams] Logistically and for cost reasons, that is quite complicated. It is not quite as straightforward as my hon. Friend examine combining the Electoral Commission’s booklet put it. with an insertion from candidates? I hope that I have dealt with colleagues’ concerns and I am pleased that the debate was so well attended. I am Mr Harper: We did consider that and we discussed it grateful to the hon. Member for Caerphilly for raising with the Electoral Commission, which is, of course, points in the way that he did. producing one booklet to be distributed to every household Question put and agreed to. across England and Wales. The difficulty is that if a booklet is going to be produced with the candidate 7.44 pm information, 41 different versions will have to be produced. House adjourned. 261WH 25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 262WH

last year. Indeed, I was fortunate enough to travel on Westminster Hall the inaugural flight from London to Ho Chi Minh City. On sustainable socio-economic development, the Wednesday 25 April 2012 agreement states: “the UK will work with Vietnam bilaterally and via the EU and other development partners to help create the necessary environment for continued economic growth and prosperity as Vietnam looks [MARTIN CATON in the Chair] to progress beyond middle income status”. Importantly, the strategic partnership commits both Anglo-Vietnamese Relations sides to the fight against corruption. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Other headings refer to the importance of links and be now adjourned.—(Mr Crabb.) co-operation on education, training, science and technology, security and defence, and on people-to-people links. On 9.30 am education, it is worth noting that the new university of Da Nang has very strong involvement from the United Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I begin by Kingdom. I think that four different UK universities drawing attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ are involved, which is a very welcome development. It is Financial Interests. As chair of the all-party group on also worth noting that there are about 7,000 Vietnamese Vietnam, it is a great privilege to have the opportunity students studying in the UK. They are very important to speak on the importance of Anglo-Vietnamese relations. both to Vietnam and to the future of our own university Indeed, given that the Foreign Secretary is currently on system. a visit to Vietnam, which is the first such visit for a long time, it is timely that we have this opportunity to The closer co-operation that exists between Vietnam celebrate the strong and growing ties between our two and the UK, particularly on important things such as countries. I should add that my views do not necessarily trade, creates new opportunities for both countries to represent all those of the all-party group, which has use our influence on each other’s behalf in our respective more than 50 members from both Houses and all regions. For example, in the UK we can, in appropriate parties. circumstances, act as good friends on behalf of Vietnam in the European Union. A couple of years ago, we gave Initially, I would like to say a few words about some important support in the European Union regarding of the areas of importance, such as civil society and the importing of shoes, for which Vietnam is very political reform. The Government rightly have concerns grateful. That was an important demonstration of our about those matters that many of us share. Of course, friendship. Vietnam has a very different political system from our own, but I am aware that there is an appetite in Vietnam Correspondingly, given its important role in ASEAN, for further reform of those important areas, particularly Vietnam can in the same way be helpful to the UK. A civil society and political reform. Ongoing exchanges recent report from UK Trade & Investment on the between members of the National Assembly and our development of emerging markets over the next two own Parliament have demonstrated a desire to improve years concluded that Vietnam was in the top three things such as the legislative process, scrutiny and emerging markets, ahead of India and just behind China. accountability. Given the economic dynamism of Vietnam, it is clearly of great advantage to the UK that we have that relationship The Government and their Vietnamese counterparts and develop it still further. are justifiably proud of the strategic partnership between our two countries, which sets out important areas of The Minister will be aware that one of the important co-operation, to which I shall refer briefly.First, importantly, areas of concern in Vietnam is the long-standing dispute it highlights the importance of political and diplomatic between China, Vietnam and many of her neighbours co-operation, including regular dialogue between leaders in the region about the South China sea. There have of both countries and enhanced parliamentary co-operation been a number of deeply worrying incidents in relation through bilateral visits, of which there have been several to which the Chinese have allegedly been in contravention in recent years, including by the chairman of the National of the UN convention on the law of the sea. All those Assembly last year. Such co-operation leads to the incidents seem to be aimed at China creating the impression promotion of trade and educational links, and I am that large parts of the South China sea are disputed sure that the Foreign Secretary’s current visit will do areas. However, there is good reason to say that that is much to further those aims. not the case. The strategic partnership between the two countries Reported incidents have included Chinese fishing envisages co-operation on global and regional issues, vessels supported by fishery control ships ramming particularly given the role of both countries in the survey vessels in the area and cutting underwater cables. United Nations, Vietnam’s important and leading role As recently as March this year, the Chinese authorities in the Association of Southeast Asian Nations and the arrested 21 Vietnamese fishermen and confiscated two UK’s role in the European Union, to which I will refer fishing vessels that were carrying out legitimate fishing later in my speech. in the Hoang Sa archipelago. Since early 2011, tension On trade and investment, the agreement recognises a has escalated in the region as a result of military exercises joint commitment to free trade and open markets, which carried out by the Chinese in the Paracel and Spratly is vital given current world economic circumstances. As islands. an aspiration when it was agreed, but now as a reality, A report by the International Crisis Group published the agreement also refers to the importance of direct as recently as this week referred to the wider dispute in flights between London and Vietnam, which commenced the South China sea and concluded: 263WH Anglo-Vietnamese Relations25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 264WH

[Mr George Howarth] issue in any anti-US spirit, but as an appeal from one close ally to another to recognise that there is a debt of “clashes on the South China Sea—3.5 million square km of water honour that now needs to be redeemed. contested by Brunei, China, Malaysia, the Philippines and Vietnam— are plentiful”. One final point also covered in the strategic partnership is the UK’s support in combating poverty in Vietnam, The report goes on to say: which, as anybody who has looked at what is happening “escalating tensions since 2009 have dealt a severe blow to China’s in Vietnam knows, is still an important issue. The UK relations with its South East Asian neighbours and significantly has a good record in this respect and I urge the Government tarnished its image”. to maintain and, if possible, even improve our important That is a fair assessment of what has gone on and what contribution to programmes used for that purpose. It is the problems are. Ominously, this week, three US ships important to highlight the role that charities play—some are in Vietnam for a five-day naval exercise—perfectly of which are based in the UK, such as Save the Children—in legitimately, I hasten to add. It is certainly not envisaged helping specific families find routes out of poverty. I that any of the exercises will involve live firepower. This recently visited one such programme. It is not dramatic year there is also a US-Philippines military exercise and is not likely to make the newspaper headlines, but it taking place off Palawan, near the disputed Spratly supported a family, whose head had severe disabilities, islands, which both Manila and Beijing claim as their by providing it with chickens. Despite his disabilities, he own. The exercises have involved 7,000 troops, of which was able to cope with the work load of keeping the 4,000, according to BBC News Asia, are from the US. chickens and was then able to sell them at market, breed There is a clear build-up of tension and a lot of interest them and produce eggs. That produced an income that concentrating on the South China sea. was otherwise not available to the family. They do not It is in the interest of keeping international trade live in the lap of luxury; they lead a Spartan existence flowing that the South China sea not be a continual by the standards that most of us would recognise, but source of conflict. It is of course a matter for Vietnam that support is so important. Charities often carry out and those in the region who are involved in the dispute such programmes in a way that is not always open to to resolve the issues by whatever multilateral and bilateral Governments. means are appropriate. However, I hope that our I will conclude as I started, by stressing the importance Government, consistent with the aims of the strategic of the growing links and friendship between our two partnership, will provide advice to Vietnam and her countries. I encourage the Minister, whom I am sure neighbours through appropriate means, drawing on our will have a great deal of sympathy for much of what I long experience of maritime matters and international have said, and his colleagues to maintain our positive maritime law. The Vietnamese are very keen for an input into this important relationship. appropriate dialogue with the UK on these issues. 9.46 am I would like to say a few words about a specific legacy of the American-Vietnamese conflict. On a recent visit Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I apologise to Ho Chi Minh City, I visited a hospital caring for for being late. I was at an event elsewhere in Parliament, young people who are victims of the use of the defoliant meeting children with type 1 diabetes and listening to Agent Orange during the Vietnam war. Shockingly, their experiences, when I suddenly noticed the time and babies are still being born with severe disabilities as a made a mad dash to Westminster Hall. result of that use, despite the passage of time since the I congratulate the right hon. Member for Knowsley end of the Vietnam war in 1975. The severity of those (Mr Howarth) on securing the debate, because the disabilities is so alarming and distressing that several relationship between the UK and Vietnam is important. members of the party I was with experienced physical He is the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for effects. The staff who care for these young people are Vietnam and was part of a delegation that visited deserving of the highest praise for the commitment and Vietnam at the end of last year. It is always welcome for kindness they show. Other Members have made the the House to hear the first-hand thoughts, considerations same visit and share the same strong concerns. At this and experiences of right hon. and hon. Members who point, I would like to say a word of praise for the have visited other countries, and listening to the right Britain-Vietnam Friendship Society, and in particular hon. Member’s words about meeting people with disabilities its secretary Len Aldis; it has done so much to highlight as a result of Agent Orange re-enforced that feeling. I the effects of Agent Orange and to raise funds for many commend the Foreign Secretary’s visit to Vietnam this years on behalf of victims. The all-party parliamentary week—I understand that he is the first to do so in group on Vietnam, which I chair, has made a commitment 17 years—and I hope this signals the UK’s commitment to hold an event in June to raise funds to provide to a strong relationship with Vietnam. I will focus my additional staff and other support for victims living in remarks on trade, human rights, gender equality and communities associated with the hospital we visited. climate change. The all-party group, which met this week, feels that Strengthening trade and business links with east Asian the Government could use their diplomatic means to countries such as Vietnam is important. The Prime encourage the United States to recognise its obligations Minister visited various countries in the region a few regarding compensation for all of those affected by weeks ago, and that is now being followed up by the Agent Orange. Whether that would involve the companies Foreign Secretary, who is visiting Vietnam and other responsible for providing the chemicals, or the US places this week. Strengthening such links is particularly Government making a gesture, is not important; the important in the context of our current domestic economic important thing is that somebody do something about problems. Looking beyond our borders to promote it. I hope the Government, perhaps through quiet economic growth and ensure the health of our economy diplomacy, can promote that cause. I do not raise that will be increasingly important. 265WH Anglo-Vietnamese Relations25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 266WH

Vietnam’s economy is expanding quickly, and so is employment and health. The World Bank gender excellent ground for increased bilateral trade. In 2010, assessment report says that women’s outcomes have its gross domestic product grew by 6.7%—an enviable improved significantly. For example, child mortality statistic compared with other countries around the world and maternal mortality have fallen sharply, which is post-2008. Leading up to 2010, the average was 6.9%. welcome news. Between 1990 and 2004, maternal mortality Its GDP has doubled every 10 years since 1986, and its fell from 233 to 85 deaths per 100,000 live births, and in economic growth has been second only to China. UK 2009, it fell further, to 69 per 100,000. In the labour exports to Vietnam reached £276 million in 2010—a market, women’s participation rates are high—among 32% increase on the previous year—but clearly there is the highest in the region—and are only behind China, more to be done. I welcome UK Trade & Investment’s Laos and Cambodia. In fact, bearing in mind the goal to increase the two-way trade between the countries statistics that I quoted earlier about the growth of the to $4 billion next year. Vietnamese economy, it is worth remarking that, of More UK companies could see Vietnam as a potential course, when a country properly engages the talents of market. There are numerous business opportunities in 100% of its population, rather than just 50%, that has oil and gas, agriculture, construction, financial services economic benefits as well. I am sure that the two and information technology in that country, but also statistics are not entirely unconnected. However, even significant barriers to investment, according to the British on gender, there are still issues regarding older women business community, such as widespread corruption, and women living in the rural parts of Vietnam, where red tape, high inflation and a lack of infrastructure in poverty is still significant and has a gendered aspect, many cases. with women more likely to live in poverty. As well as highlighting the importance of our trading Vietnam has made a commitment to sustainable relationship with Vietnam, it is really important that we development and has said that it will respond to the do not avert our eyes from the human rights difficulties challenges posed by climate change. The country faces and abuses there. A Human Rights Watch report this severe threats, so adaptation measures must be a priority. year said that the Government in Vietnam has severely If, as is predicted, the temperature increases by just over cracked down on political dissent: freedom of expression 2° C towards the end of this century, the dry season in and public assembly are tightly controlled; religious Vietnam will become drier, with decreased rainfall, activists are harassed, intimidated and imprisoned; and and the rainfall in the rainy season will increase, leading there are even reports that state-run drug rehabilitation to greater risk of extreme weather events, including centres use detainees as forced labourers to make goods flooding and problems in the dry season. Sea levels for local markets and for export. could rise by up to 1 metre. If adaptation is not seriously addressed in Vietnam and sea levels rise, 40% of Mekong On freedom of speech, three bloggers—Nguyen Van delta, 9% of the Red river delta and 3% of the other Hai, Phan Thanh Hai and Ta Phong Tan—were jailed provinces in coastal areas could be flooded. More recently for allegedly conducting propaganda against worryingly, more than 20% of Ho Chi Minh City could the state under article 88 of the penal code, but effectively be flooded. they were just expressing their views online. Those bloggers are founding members of the Club for Free This is a serious issue affecting Vietnam, and it is a Journalists, which exists to promote freedom of expression priority for the Vietnamese Government to address. and independent journalism, which we in this country However, there is always a challenge, as with many all hold dear and think is an important principle in a developing economies, because it is difficult to have the free society.However, in Vietnam, the police have harassed, pace of economic growth that is needed—with the intimidated and detained the members of that organisation additional energy needs and their impact on climate for the past four years. I hope that, in our renewed change—while addressing adaptation and mitigation relationship with the Vietnamese Government, we are measures. also raising our concerns about these issues from a UK I hope that, in common with other countries around point of view. the world, we ensure that we encourage the Vietnamese I hope that we are also pressing firmly on the use of Government to take this matter seriously and share the the death penalty, which, as a member of Amnesty, I do expertise that we have learned, because part of the not believe is acceptable under any circumstance. The bilateral relationship, and an important part of our statistics on how many people are put to death by the diplomacy, is sharing green technology and measures state in Vietnam were deemed a state secret in 2011, so that could help them adapt and mitigate the difficulties we have to rely on other sources for statistics, including that they will otherwise face. human rights organisations. Amnesty recorded at least I thank the right hon. Member for Knowsley again five executions and at least 23 new death sentences for initiating the debate. I look forward to hearing the imposed in 2011, mostly for drug-related offences. Senior contribution from the Opposition Front Bencher and officials quoted by a newspaper have suggested that as the Minister’s responses. many as 100 death sentences may be imposed every year. I hope that the strong record of the UK Government will continue in this regard, that they will ensure that 9.56 am our view that the death penalty is wrong is strongly Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is, as always, represented and that this matter will be raised in our a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. meetings with Ministers. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for There is a slightly more positive story to be told Knowsley (Mr Howarth) on securing the debate, on his about women in Vietnam. In fact, many reports say that work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group for there has been remarkable progress on gender equality Vietnam and on having the courtesy to talk to me in the in recent years, addressing disparities in education, Lobby about some issues that he wanted to raise. It is a 267WH Anglo-Vietnamese Relations25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 268WH

[Kerry McCarthy] a number study sessions. It was a good opportunity, and I met some of the delegation on that occasion. pleasure to see the Minister. We tend to face each other Such interchange between the two Parliaments is useful in this Chamber rather more often than he ought to, for everyone concerned. given that this is, yet again, not one of the countries that Tourism is a growth sector in Vietnam. People who he covers in his brief, but it is always a pleasure to see have perhaps been to Thailand and such places in the him here. past now see Vietnam as the next frontier. The first As we have heard, Vietnam is fascinating country direct flights from the UK start in December, and it is with great potential that has made great strides in recent hoped that they will increase tourism as well as business years, but it still faces many challenges. It has come a links. long way over the past decade, achieving middle-income status and improvements in the quality of life for much The partnership with Vietnam is therefore developing of its population. I hope that the friendship between on a number of fronts. Strengthening the ties between Britain and Vietnam is a factor in helping it achieve that the UK and Vietnam is of mutual benefit to both our progress and will be a factor in helping it achieve much countries, hence the Foreign Secretary’s decision to visit more over coming years. Vietnam this week to meet business leaders and UKTI’s designation of Vietnam as one of its high-growth markets. Vietnam has already met a number of the millennium Vietnam is the second most popular investment destination development goals, not least on infant mortality and in the emerging markets after China, and more than eradicating extreme poverty. The hon. Member for East 100 UK companies have registered offices in Vietnam. Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) mentioned the progress UK-Vietnam trade, as mentioned, was worth more than that has been made in raising child and maternal mortality £1.8 billion last year, with UK imports accounting for rates. The poverty rate has decreased from 58% in 1992 the vast majority of that sum, totalling over £1.5 billion, to 15% in 2008, which is remarkable progress. UK aid, compared with exports of only £295 million. With the through the Department for International Development, strategic partnership specifying a trade volume target of is making an important contribution, totalling over $4 billion by next year, can the Minister in his response £200 million over the past five years, with £25 million in set out the progress made and the likely balance of debt relief since 2006. But with UK aid and the development trade over the coming years? partnership agreement due to end in 2016, it is crucial that Vietnam is left in a position not only to sustain the The bilateral relationship not only strengthens impressive improvements that it has made, but to make co-operation between our two countries, but provides a much further progress. greater presence for the UK in ASEAN and for Vietnam in the European Union, as my right hon. Friend the Of course, neither this Government nor the previous Member for Knowsley said. The UK was the 13th largest Labour Administration have focused solely on aid. The investor in Vietnam last year—we were the third European right way forward is to strengthen political and economic nation after the Netherlands and France—and the EU links, particularly trade links, between our two countries. is Vietnam’s third largest trading partner after China That began in 2004, with the first official visit of a and the US. With negotiations due to start on a bilateral Vietnamese Head of State to the UK, followed by the free trade agreement between the EU and Vietnam, first visit by a Vietnamese Prime Minister in 2008, on making Vietnam the EU’s third partner in the region which occasion the then Prime Minister, my right hon. after Singapore and Malaysia, it will be important for Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath the UK to maintain a strong position in the market and (Mr Brown), signed a joint declaration on partnership during the negotiations. for progress. Five priority areas were included in that partnership agreement: trade and investment; development, While noting the economic benefits for our countries, including good governance, accountability and rule of however, we cannot overlook the need for ongoing law; international issues, including Security Council political, economic and social reform in Vietnam, as co-operation and climate change; education; and tackling has been said. Having initiated the “doi moi” reforms, illegal migration and organised crime. joined ASEAN, been a member of the UN Security Council and made impressive progress on many of the The declaration was a landmark achievement in our millennium development goals, Vietnam has rightly bilateral relationship, laying the foundations for the been commended. It has improved its standing in the strategic partnership signed by the current Foreign Secretary international arena, but Vietnam’s partners, such as the in 2010, the intention of which is to strengthen the UK, have a duty to support further improvements, not relationship on seven fronts: political and diplomatic least in human rights, and to ensure that economic co-operation; global and regional issues; trade and growth does not leave the poorest behind. investment; sustainable socio-economic development; education, training, science and technology; security The Foreign Office has stated: and defence; and people-to-people links. Part of the “Corruption in Vietnam remains systemic”, political and diplomatic co-operation includes a biennial strategic dialogue, and I very much welcome the Foreign and in the 2011 corruption perceptions index, Vietnam Secretary pursuing that dialogue in Vietnam as we scored only 2.9, ranking it 112th out of 182 countries. speak—he is certainly in the far east. The Ministry of That is of both domestic and international concern, Defence subsequently signed a co-operation memorandum given that the Business Anti-Corruption Portal reports of understanding, and the UK is increasing its diplomatic that presence in Vietnam. “weak enforcement means corruption continues to be cited as one Members of the Law Committee of the National of the most problematic factors for doing business in the country.” Assembly visited London last year to discuss political What support, therefore, is the UK offering for the and constitutional reform with hon. Members at one of delivery of the anti-corruption strategy? 269WH Anglo-Vietnamese Relations25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 270WH

Vietnam is to be commended for its development Worryingly, though, as mentioned, restrictions on freedom efforts, and it is encouraging that its 10 year socio-economic of expression have been tightened over the past couple development strategy connects economic growth to social of years, and the suppression of political dissent has progress and equality, but the previous UN resident continued. Human rights campaigners this month called co-ordinator, John Hendra, has expressed concerns about for the release of the three bloggers referred to by the whether the Administration’s efforts would reach the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire—the founding most vulnerable. It is one thing for a country to be lifted members of the Club for Free Journalists—who have to middle-income status, but the benefits are not necessarily been accused of conducting propaganda against the felt by everyone in the country. There is concern that, in state and could face up to 20 years in prison. Can the particular, informal workers, unemployed agricultural Minister tell us what representations the UK Government workers and ethnic minority groups from remote areas have made on the cases of those three bloggers in will be left behind; 70% of the population live in the particular and on the more general issue of internet countryside and are not necessarily benefiting from freedoms, freedom of expression, freedom of religion urban growth. and an independent judicial system? Growth has not brought economic stability, and the While Vietnam is moving forward, it is worth country is struggling with high inflation; the Financial remembering this morning how the past continues to Times reported that food prices had risen by 32% in the affect the lives of many in the country. More than 10 months to October. The Vietnamese Government 100,000 Vietnamese have been killed or injured by land have raised the minimum wage in response, but 12 million mines since the Vietnam war and, according to the UN, people are still in poverty, and the poverty rate among 6.6 million hectares remain polluted, which Vietnam ethnic minorities is at 50%. Land ownership is a particularly estimates will take decades to clear. The US ambassador difficult issue, with confusion and conflicts developing to Vietnam reports that the USA has provided $62 million, where citizens have land-use rights but the land remains but have the UK Government had any discussions with officially owned by the state. It is worth noting, as the officials in either the USA or Vietnam about efforts to EU has, that Vietnam has sought to improve living remove the land mines? conditions for ethnic minorities, aiding social and economic My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley integration, including support for education in minority spoke movingly about the effects of Agent Orange, languages, and it is important that the UK, too, supports which is another tragic legacy of the conflict. Two years such efforts. Will the UK Government work to ensure ago, the UN announced a $5 million project to help that the benefits of the expanding trade relationship clean up contamination, after the Vietnam Government with Vietnam help not only the UK, but more of the had reportedly spent $5 million building landfill for Vietnamese population? contaminants on one of the three main sites affected. Vietnam has attracted investment and overseas business Vietnamese officials, however, estimate that they might with its cheap labour—wages in China are a third need at least another $60 million to decontaminate higher. Wages remain low, although, as I said, the those three bases. The US Government have contributed, Vietnamese Government lifted the minimum wage recently. and they have given some funds to help Vietnamese The strategic partnership declaration referred to increasing living with disabilities as a result of Agent Orange. Has Vietnam’s footwear, garment and textile exports, which the Foreign Office recently assessed Vietnam’s ability to will, of course, be a pivotal source of income for the clear the contamination and help its victims and what country, but will the UK Government monitor workers’ international could be given to assist the country? rights and conditions and any implications for Vietnam’s As I mentioned earlier, the Labour Government signed agricultural workers? a memorandum of understanding for UK-Vietnam co-operation by 2013, which included pursuing objectives As the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire in ASEAN and the EU, expanding trade, and the pursuance mentioned, economic growth can come at a high cost to of the “doi moi” agenda. As we celebrate the 40th the environment. Vietnam, as she said, is particularly anniversary of diplomatic relations next year, it is vulnerable to climate change; it is among the top five encouraging that the UK continues to develop a countries most likely to be affected by rising sea levels. closer relationship with Vietnam and to expand trade Will the UK continue to provide climate change assistance opportunities. I urge the Minister to ensure that the UK for adaptation and mitigation measures? supports Vietnam in helping to spread such benefits as Human trafficking remains a serious concern, which evenly and as widely as possible. I wish both countries is attributable partly to the uneven economic development the best success in pursuing their friendship in the years to which I referred and to the trend for rural-to-urban to come. migration. Over the past year, Vietnam has developed a national plan of action on human trafficking, and its 10.10 am anti-human trafficking law came into effect in January. The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign has identified Vietnam as the No. 1 source of potential and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): It is a pleasure, victims in the UK. Will the UK Government therefore Mr Caton, to serve under your chairmanship. I echo the work with the Vietnamese authorities to ensure that remarks of the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire their measures to end trafficking are effective and that (Jo Swinson) in thanking the right hon. Member for victims are supported? Knowsley (Mr Howarth) for this debate this morning. One of my happiest memories of the right hon. Gentleman On human rights, the bi-annual EU-Vietnam is that I took part in his by-election when I was the human rights dialogue is an important initiative and Conservative candidate’s parliamentary friend. That a sign of Vietnam’s commitment, as is the ASEAN by-election in his area gave me the chance to meet all Intergovernmental Commission on Human Rights. the Conservative voters personally on several occasions 271WH Anglo-Vietnamese Relations25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 272WH

[Alistair Burt] economic and political centre of gravity has shifted south and east. We have responded by implementing during the three weeks, so we had a happy time without what we call the network shift, with a significant increase disturbing the pundits too much with a surprise result. in resources throughout our missions in the region, It was the start of a very warm friendship. including additional staff for our missions in both Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City. That will enable us to Mr George Howarth: All several hundred of them strengthen our relations with Vietnam to ensure that fondly remember the Minister. there is mutual benefit. I am sure hon. Members are aware that the UK-Vietnam Alistair Burt: I am very grateful to them, including bilateral relationship is already deep and strong. As the Earl of Derby. part of the National Security Council’s emerging powers I thank the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire initiative, Vietnam is among the six ASEAN countries for her comments, and her engagement with and her prioritised as an emerging power. That initiative has usual passionate commitment to human rights. I also enabled us to transform our relationship with Vietnam, thank the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for using the foundation of the UK-Vietnam strategic Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) for her comments. We partnership, which was signed in 2010. The partnership cover some similar ground, so I will make some general covers all areas of the bilateral relationship: political remarks, but I hope to cover most of the points that and diplomatic co-operation, global and regional issues, hon. Members have made. I begin with an apology education, trade and investment, security and defence, on behalf of the Minister of State, Foreign and socio-economic development, and people-to-people links. Commonwealth Office, my hon. Friend the Member for A key area of opportunity is co-operation on education. Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) who is not here because There are already more than 7,000 Vietnamese students he is representing the Foreign Secretary at the Anzac in the UK, and we are proud that young people in that day service at Westminster Abbey. The House will ambitious country see the standards and opportunities understand why he is not with us, and I will discuss the of a British education as key to their success. The right debate with him to ensure that he is fully aware of the hon. Gentleman referred specifically to education. The matters raised. British Council there is supporting vocational education, The right hon. Member for Knowsley is chair of the skills training and higher education. UK universities all-party group on Vietnam. He has a close interest in and colleges, as well as the Association of Chartered our relations with Vietnam, and his comments reflected Certified Accountants, are running joint programmes that. I thank him for his courtesy in providing me with with Vietnamese universities. We are working to establish a copy of his speech, which helped in preparing my an international-standard state university in Da Nang. response. The debate has raised several topics that are A number of UK private sector players, including British familiar to those who follow issues in Vietnam, and University Vietnam, have set up in Hanoi and Ho Chi comes at a significant time. Vietnam and, indeed, the Minh City. wider south-east Asian region are becoming increasingly The English language is at the heart of our education important to the United Kingdom, as evidenced by the offer. Seven thousand children, teens, and adults study policy of the previous Government, and now by that of English at the British Council’s Hanoi and Ho Chi this Government. Minh City teaching centres every year. The British The Prime Minister was in the region at the beginning Council also trains 500 Government officials. It has set of April and, as we speak, the Foreign Secretary is, as up a free website to offer support for English lessons, has been said, in Vietnam as part of a trip that will also and ideas and inspiration for educators for more than take in Singapore and Brunei for the EU-ASEAN Foreign 5,000 teacher members. Intel has set itself a target of a Ministers’ meeting. That visit is the first by a Foreign computer for every Vietnamese household by 2020. Secretary in 17 years. Included in his programme are Thanks to its work with the British Council and the talks with his Vietnamese counterpart, Mr Pham Binh Vietnamese Ministry of Education and Training, each Minh, and the Minister of Public Security, Mr Tran Dai will come uploaded with fun, English-learning educational Quang, with the aim of progressing UK-Vietnam relations. resources in line with Vietnam’s English curriculum. The trip also includes meetings with representatives We can do more. The Prime Minister announced from the international business and development during his visit to Indonesia that the UK has set aside communities, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend new money to stimulate the expansion of educational will be pleased to catch up with hon. Members on his links and collaborative programmes across the region, return. including with Vietnam, with increased student and Vietnam is a dynamic country with a booming economy. academic flows in both directions. We are calling that It has been recognised by the National Security Council the UK-ASEAN knowledge partnership. We will work as a tier 3 emerging power, and is the world’s second with Vietnam and our other regional partners to map largest exporter of rice and coffee. It is set to continue the areas of mutual interest. For the 10 ASEAN countries, on that growth path, with the World Bank predicting there is seed money of £200,000, and we can begin to 6% average growth in gross domestic product over the create more opportunities, with a value of up to £3 million, next two years. It has a population of more than 90 million, for individuals and institutions. with a median age below 30 and a 90% literacy rate. With that projected economic growth and those Jo Swinson: I thank the Minister for being typically demographics, the opportunities for the United Kingdom generous in giving way. I welcome what he said about will continue to grow in conjunction with growth in the UK’s strategy of engaging with emerging powers. Vietnam. We have seen a similar pattern in other countries On education, will he say what representations he has in the Asia Pacific region, and recognise that the world’s made to the Home Office to ensure that the visa regime 273WH Anglo-Vietnamese Relations25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 274WH is efficient and does not stop people coming to this However, despite that background and the UK’s country? I know that there have been issues with student involvement in trade and investment and commercial visas, and if we are to expand those cultural and educational opportunities, we acknowledge that Vietnam must do links, the issuing of visas is important and must run more to meet its commitments. Vietnam has reaped the smoothly. benefits of its accession to the World Trade Organisation in 2007, but its obligations must also be prioritised. We Alistair Burt: I am not as familiar with visa issues regularly encourage Vietnam to liberalise its markets affecting Vietnam as I am with those in countries of further, and negotiations on an EU-Vietnam free trade which I have more intimate knowledge, but I think the agreement will start soon, which will bring additional problems are common and similar. We are trying to benefits to the UK and Vietnam. operate a regime that will encourage people to come to Bureaucracy and corruption remain major problems; the United Kingdom within the limits set by the Home Vietnam is ranked 116th on Transparency International’s Office on security, numbers, and everything else. The corruption perceptions index—a long way below China balance is always difficult. I will raise with the Minister and Thailand. The hon. Member for Bristol East raised of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. that issue and asked what more we can do to help, and Friend the Member for Taunton Deane the issues relating the UK remains keen to work with Vietnam to address specifically to Vietnam, and I presume that he has those problems, including through the anti-corruption already been in close touch with the Home Office. The dialogue. We believe that tackling corruption has become balance is difficult. It is not easy anywhere, and I will a priority for the Vietnamese Government. They have ensure that the hon. Lady’s concerns are reflected back. developed a comprehensive legal framework on anti- Education and its spin-over into the general partnership corruption measures, and in 2009 they signed the United with the United Kingdom put us in a good position not Nations convention against corruption. Although there only to be a leading partner in educational development has been good progress, the enforcement and impact of but, as a result of English language use, in various the convention remains patchy at best. Therefore, a commercial opportunities. I will speak about trade and joint in-country team from the Department for International investment before coming to human rights and other Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office issues. has been formed to lead our anti-corruption work. Vietnam’s impressive potential makes it attractive to Such work is given high priority in Vietnam because it UK businesses, which are already doing well in Vietnam. has a direct impact on UK interests and we believe that The UK is already Vietnam’s biggest foreign investor we can make a difference in a fast-emerging market. in financial services. Other sectors where there are Corruption is holding back economic development in opportunities include education, which I touched on a too many countries in the region, as well as in other moment ago, real estate and retail. Bilateral trade in parts of the world. It is an endemic and cultural problem, goods reached almost £2 billion in 2011, up by 33% on and needs to be tackled. I am confident, however, that the previous year. UK exports grew by 18%, reaching our efforts will assist Vietnam in its attempts to deal £325 million. As I am sure hon. Members will recall, the with that problem. strategic partnership includes a joint commitment to Before looking at human rights, I would like to double trade by 2013—the hon. Member for Bristol mention one or two regional issues and respond to the East made the point about where our balance of trade right hon. Gentleman’s comments about the South China should be heading—and our UKTI team has trade sea. As Vietnam’s economic power grows, so does its officers in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City to help UK political power. Through our bilateral relationship we companies looking to establish or expand their presence are encouraging Vietnam to play an active and responsible in Vietnam. However, in a rapidly growing market it is role on the global stage, and to use its influence in the necessary to take a longer perspective, and we are region and through ASEAN on issues of importance working with the Vietnamese through the Joint Economic such as Burma, counter-proliferation and climate change. and Trade Committee to identify priority areas and boost our trade and investment relationship. Those As the House will be aware, the Government are bilateral talks include issues of market access and other concerned about tensions in the South China sea, which points of concern to UK companies. is a vital global trade artery. The UK has an interest in maintaining freedom of navigation in the region, and We are well placed to share UK expertise in the we hope that all parties can resolve disputes peacefully financial services, and as I have indicated, the UK is and in line with international law. The UK continues already the biggest investor in that sector in Vietnam. to call for all parties to show restraint and abide by The UK has recently signed a memorandum of international norms for the safe conduct of vessels at understanding with the Vietnamese Ministry of Finance sea. We hope that the Vietnamese can build on recent under which we will co-operate on a financial framework discussions with all relevant parties and reach an agreement. for public-private partnerships, public debt management, and sovereign credit ratings. We recognise, however, that the dispute in the South UK companies are world leaders in managing large China sea is long-standing and complex. It centres on a infrastructure projects and that will be an important maze of overlapping territorial claims, and the associated area for Vietnam in coming years. It is estimated that an right to exploit maritime resources, by China, Vietnam, investment of around $160 billion will be required over the Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei. Oil and the next decade, and given the scale of that investment, gas reserves in the sea are significant. The South China new models of funding for those projects will be required. sea is a vital global trade artery and some 50% of world We have actively shared our experiences of the public-private trade passes through it. partnership model with the Vietnamese, and we hope As the right hon. Gentleman made clear, China, that UK companies will continue to contribute their Vietnam and the Philippines have been vigorous in world-class expertise. stating their claims. Earlier this month, Philippine and 275WH Anglo-Vietnamese Relations25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 276WH

[Alistair Burt] to corruption. Our efforts are focused on: building engagement with the Government and the Communist Chinese naval vessels were involved in a tense stand-off party of Vietnam on key areas of concern; supporting over 12 Chinese fishing vessels that were anchored in the development of the media; enhancing openness, disputed waters off the north-west coast of the Philippines. transparency and Government accountability; and tackling Although such incidents continue to be relatively low corruption. level, the UK remains concerned about the potential The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire referred for a minor skirmish to escalate quickly through a to freedom of expression, which is our main human miscalculation on either side. rights concern in Vietnam. The Vietnamese authorities Our role is to encourage all those involved to seek maintain a tough stance against any political dissent agreement through international negotiation and existing and a firm grip on print, broadcast and online media processes. The right hon. Gentleman asked about advice across the country.We have concerns about the Vietnamese from the United Kingdom, and as an island nation with Government’s treatment of peaceful activists, bloggers a long history and involvement in such matters, our and land rights campaigners. National security laws are advice on maritime issues and territorial disputes will regularly used against political dissidents and human continue to be available to all parties. It is essential to rights defenders and often lead to lengthy prison sentences. find a peaceful way forward. We understand that ASEAN We continue to urge the authorities to adopt a more and China have agreed to develop a code of conduct for tolerant approach, stressing the links between Vietnam’s the South China sea, and we continue to support that future macro-economic development and its willingness process. to encourage free speech, open debate, innovation and Let me turn to human rights, and the issue of Agent creativity, which are all important in developing a modern, Orange that was mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. vibrant and industrialised economy. While that remains primarily an issue for the United The hon. Lady mentioned the death penalty, and I States and Vietnam, we share a concern about the can assure her of the UK’s belief that it is wrong in all circumstances of the past. We continue to pay close circumstances. We will continue to raise the issue with interest to the issue—I know that during a visit to nations that do not hold that view. Vietnam in September last year, members of the all-party The hon. Lady raised the issue of freedom of religion. group for Vietnam, together with staff from our embassy, In recent years, the Vietnamese Government have made visited a number of sites affected by the use of Agent progress in implementing their legislative framework to Orange. protect freedom of religion and belief. However, there Since 2001, the Governments of the US and Vietnam are still isolated reports of harassment of religious have worked together on the potential environmental groups by local government officials, as well as delays in and health issues related to Agent Orange and dioxin approving the registration of religious groups. We and contamination. The Joint Advisory Committee that our partners in the EU continue to encourage the advises both the US and Vietnam on activities related Vietnamese authorities to ensure that religious freedoms to Agent Orange and dioxin contamination, including are respected consistently across the country and that research and environmental remediation, met for its central Government policy is understood and implemented fourth annual meeting in September 2009. In December appropriately by provincial and local authorities. There 2010 the US and Vietnam signed a memorandum of have been a number of incidents involving Christian intent to start work on dioxin clean-up in Da Nang, to and Buddhist sites as part of land disputes between be completed in 2013. Although it is primarily a matter religious groups and local authorities. In such cases, we between the US and Vietnam, we take a close interest in have always urged all parties to seek a peaceful resolution, it and our officials have raised the issue directly with the and we have urged the Vietnamese authorities to ensure United States. The right hon. Gentleman can be assured that property registration procedures are applied consistently of our sympathy and understanding in relation to those across the country. concerns. Other issues of human rights have been mentioned, The hon. Lady mentioned migration and trafficking, including freedom of expression, the blogosphere, freedom about which we are very concerned. The Vietnamese are of religion and freedom of politics. As the Foreign one of the top three nationalities encountered in the Secretary has said, human rights are essential to and UK as potential victims of trafficking. None the less, indivisible from the UK’s foreign policy objectives. As the scale of the problem is small compared with illegal hon. Members will know, the FCO publishes an annual migration from Vietnam. Many people are complicit in human rights report. The 2010 report, published in their illegal entry, but once they are in the UK, organised April 2011, identified Vietnam as one of 26 countries of crime groups target those who are vulnerable and traffic concern, and highlighted the concern that there were no them internally within the country. Sadly, Vietnamese signs in the short term that the human rights situation adults are almost as likely to be trafficked for sexual there would change. I encourage all colleagues to look exploitation as they are for labour exploitation. The key at the report for 2011, which is due to be published to tackling trafficking is to decrease the smuggling of shortly. Vietnamese nationals to the UK. Supporting Vietnam in improving its record on human We are also concerned about Vietnamese minors. Between rights remains a priority for the UK and is very much April 2009 and February 2011, 75 out of 96 victims part of the strategic partnership. We engage Vietnam on were identified as minors. The majority arrive in the human rights bilaterally and through the EU, which UK as clandestine entrants and are then targeted for holds an annual human rights dialogue with Vietnam. labour exploitation, especially cannabis cultivation. Our overarching objective is to strengthen accountability, To reduce such threats, we have developed an excellent which would lead to increased freedom of expression, relationship with the Vietnamese Ministry of Public effective oversight mechanisms and a more robust response Security on migration issues. That is particularly significant, 277WH Anglo-Vietnamese Relations25 APRIL 2012 Anglo-Vietnamese Relations 278WH given that the UK is clearly the demandeur in the and trade and investment are increasingly taken forward relationship. We are increasing work on organised crime as part of the strategic partnership. We are also working through the Serious Organised Crime Agency, which on that with multilateral organisations. will post a full-time officer to Vietnam in 2013. For the The hon. Member for Bristol East mentioned labour time being, the work is covered by a Bangkok-based conditions and wages. As part of Vietnam’s work with officer, who visits Vietnam twice a month. Through the the UK Government, we are discussing capacity building risk and liaison overseas network, the UK Border Agency and sharing our experience on labour laws, union is increasingly active in Vietnam, and it will become still participation and economic development in conversations more active following the agreement of the memorandum with partners in Vietnam. of understanding on immigration information exchange. Colleagues raised a couple of issues about climate Kerry McCarthy: Will UK trade unions be involved change. Across Government, we will launch a new in that, perhaps under the umbrella of the TUC? Will trilateral relationship with the Government of Vietnam they work with labour organisations in Vietnam on and the World Bank, and we have been working closely these issues? with Vietnam on that. As part of the strategic partnership, the Department for International Development will Alistair Burt: If I may, I will raise that with the fund a £3 million project covering key gaps in capacity Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in five Vietnamese partner Ministries, and that will my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane. However, include adaptation and low-carbon growth analysis. I saw Brendan Barber quite recently regarding trade union activity in countries in transition in north Africa, On adaptation, DFID is developing a project on and we have a good relationship with the TUC in taking coastal adaptation in the Red river delta. We hope that forward work on trade unions in places where that may will be funded by the international climate fund, which have been difficult historically. I am sure the same is designed to address climate change internationally. partnership opportunities will exist in Vietnam. The hon. Lady was right to recognise the particular geography of Vietnam, whose river deltas put it at I hope that covers the issues colleagues have raised. If maximum threat from climate change. That is a further anything has been left untouched, I will, of course, reason why we should act bilaterally with Vietnam, as ensure that it is dealt with by letter. I hope the time we well as acting on our international obligations. have spent on the debate and the points that have been raised confirm that my right hon. Friend the Foreign The right hon. Member for Knowsley mentioned Secretary’s visit to Vietnam today is timely and builds development and poverty, and I am keen to respond. on the good relationship between the UK and Vietnam, On development, we recognise that economic and which has been built up over a number of years. The commercial growth and opportunities in Vietnam are strategic partnership between us, as well as our common perhaps the biggest drivers in raising living standards concern to use the opportunities provided by trade and and dealing with poverty. Vietnam has made considerable investment and to recognise Vietnam’s growing political progress against key development indicators and is seen power and responsibilities in the region, are all good as something of a success story in reducing poverty. In reasons why my right hon. Friend should be there today 2011, it ranked 128th out of 187 countries on the building our relationship and looking to the future. human development index, which is well above what could be expected, given the country’s current national I also hope that what I have said about the UK’s income. However, challenges still remain. Some 12 million commitments and engagement—whether on commerce, people still live in poverty, and the poverty rate among poverty or human rights—shows that we have the right ethnic minorities is particularly high, at 52%. balance in our relationship. We want to encourage development right across the board in Vietnam, while Since 2006, we have granted Vietnam more than not holding back on addressing issues that may be £25 million in debt relief through our DFID office detrimental to its development, as well as those issues in-country. Based on a 10-year development partnership that any country, on an international basis, will want to agreement, the UK has provided more than £448 million put right over a period of time. In the UK, Vietnam has in grand-aid to Vietnam. When the development partnership a good partner on those issues. We will offer advice and agreement concludes in 2016, DFID will graduate from support as Vietnam continues its progress through the its programme in Vietnam. As part of that transition century. plan, DFID will focus on ensuring that interventions are sustainable beyond the period of its presence. Long-term 10.40 am activities on issues such as governance, climate change, Sitting suspended. 279WH 25 APRIL 2012 Sexting and Sexual Grooming 280WH

Sexting and Sexual Grooming today is that, with new technology, the risk that children and young people are exposed to as part of that process has risen dramatically. 10.58 am Today’s phenomenon of sexting involves children and young people taking pictures of themselves, perhaps Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve to send to established boyfriends or girlfriends, to create under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I welcome the romantic interest or for reasons such as attention seeking. Minister to this debate; he has a very strong commitment There is often no criminal behaviour beyond the creation to safeguarding children. or sending of images, no apparent malice and no lack of I want to begin by supporting the excellent willing participation by young people who are pictured. recommendations to protect children from online The problem is that, once the pictures are taken and pornography that were contained in last week’s report sent, the sender loses control of them and they could on the independent parliamentary inquiry into online end up anywhere, from being passed all around school child protection, led by the hon. Member for Devizes to being viewed and passed on by paedophiles. In (Claire Perry). Today, I want to focus on one aspect that addition, children’s charities fear that young people are the online inquiry mentioned was of great concern to being coerced into providing explicit images online, parents: the growing phenomenon of sexting. which are then shared without their consent via phones Sexting involves the sharing of sexually suggestive and social networking sites—a process known as doxing. messages or images electronically, primarily between According to Sherry Adhami of Beat Bullying, sexting mobile phones. According to Ofcom, about 50% of has become an epidemic. She says: eight to 11-year-olds and 88% of 12 to 15-year-olds “We are seeing it more and more—we’ve even seen it in own a mobile phone. The speed with which children primary schools. It is 100 per cent classless and this affects and young people are gaining access to the internet— children whether they are in deprived or affluent areas.” accelerated with the advent of smartphones, enabling Beat Bullying says that sexting can be used as a form of children to access the internet from their mobile phones—is cyber-bulling, when an individual or a group of people unprecedented. deliberately attempts to hurt, upset, threaten or humiliate The problem is growing, according to the children’s someone else. That includes situations when a recipient charity Beat Bullying, which is very concerned that of images or text is made to feel uncomfortable as a there is increasing peer pressure to send sexting images; direct result of that content or is asked to do something and the age is getting younger. Its research, carried out that makes them feel distressed. in 2009, showed that 38% of children aged 11 to 18 had Sexting becomes problematic when it leads to criminal received a sexually explicit or distressing text or e-mail. or abusive behaviour, such as sexual abuse, extortion, Those figures are backed up by research from Plymouth threats, malicious conduct arising from interpersonal university, which found that 40% of 14 to 16-year-olds conflicts, or the creation, sending or showing of images said their friends engaged in sexting. In addition, a without the knowledge or against the will of the person survey by Beat Bullying in 2010 revealed that more than who is pictured, or if it becomes a tool for sexual 54% of teachers were aware of pupils creating and grooming. Such grooming involves not just adults grooming sharing sexually suggestive messages and images via children, but increasingly children grooming other children. mobile phones or the internet. In Manchester, each A Beat Bullying survey of 11 to 18-year-olds found week two schools are turning to e-safety groups for help that 45% of text messages were from their peers, but the about sexting incidents. problem is that young people are very vulnerable to I congratulate the Manchester Evening News and its suggestions from their peers. There is a fine line between reporter Amy Glendinning on recognising this issue. young people voluntarily sharing images and their feeling The newspaper’s excellent series about internet safety under pressure to do so. The recognition that children has examined the dangers that lurk online and the traps and young people can be sexually victimised by other that children fall into, including sexting. The coverage young people is reshaping our understanding of the included recommendations and advice from local police issue. and schools. That is another example of public service It is part of the growing-up process for both girls and journalism at its best from the Manchester Evening boys to decide what sexual behaviour they feel comfortable News and follows its groundbreaking campaign last with. However, some young girls are particularly vulnerable year about children missing from home, which was of to pressure—for example, girls with low self-esteem, great interest to me as the chair of the all-party group those from dysfunctional families or those living in on runaway and missing children and adults. In many care. Such girls are particularly vulnerable to sexual ways, the missing people and sexting issues are linked, exploitation, both by adults and their peers. and charities such as the Children’s Society feel that sexting should be recognised as part of the sexual Sexual grooming happens when someone is enticed grooming process that many vulnerable, runaway or to do something that they do not want to do, and the missing children fall victim to. link between sexual grooming and sexting is becoming increasingly apparent. The Children’s Society has told Our children’s lives, including their experiences at me that its practitioners around the country are finding school, are very different from our childhood and that sexting is a growing method of sexually grooming experiences of school, but one aspect of childhood young people. It has said of sexting: remains the same. Throughout the ages, as children “It becomes a tool of coercion, threat and power, as young have grown up, they have wanted to push boundaries at people are encouraged to take pictures or videos of themselves, an age when they are more sexually and socially aware; initially often for a financial reward or because they are groomed they want to experiment and tread their own path to into thinking the person is their boyfriend. The sexting then independence. That is normal. But what is different becomes a tool of manipulation and the young person is threatened 281WH Sexting and Sexual Grooming25 APRIL 2012 Sexting and Sexual Grooming 282WH that the images will be shared with their friends and teachers. A Children and young people need to be supported by key problem is that young people see these texts as harmless fun their parents, teachers and peers to ensure that they are but they quickly lead to sexualised conversations and grooming.” empowered to manage new technology. Charities such as Family Lives offer valuable advice and help to parents Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I who are concerned about their children’s sexual behaviour. congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate, A lot of good work is going on in schools and police which is very timely. She has hit on an important point. forces to raise awareness and to recognise sexting as Young people, particularly vulnerable young females, part of the grooming process. The Child Exploitation quite often look at sexting as a fairly innocent, normal and Online Protection Centre provides an excellent exchange of either messages or images, and they do not education campaign called Thinkuknow and has produced realise the seriousness of what they are doing and how a film about sexting. It is important that education and others could use that material. That is what we have to awareness-raising programmes focus on children who concentrate on today, and I am glad that the hon. Lady send images or exert pressure on other children to is making that point. Does she agree? produce images without realising the extent of the damage that they can cause. Charities such as Beat Ann Coffey: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman, Bullying have a great deal of expertise in that respect. and I am very pleased that there is a growing body of More needs to be done, however. I want the mobile support among parliamentarians about the fact that we phone industry to do more to highlight some of the must address this important issue. dangers of its products, in the same way as the gambling The Children’s Society has also said of sexting: and alcohol industries provide help for people who “Because it is not face to face interaction, young people will encounter problems arising from their products. The also behave in a different way without realising the risks that they gambling industry provides funding for education and are exposing themselves to, until it is too late.” the treatment of problem gambling and the drinks The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty industry funds the charity Drinkaware. to Children will publish further research into sexting The mobile phone industry has a great responsibility, next month. It gave me an extract from a ChildLine call given the profits that it makes and its targeting of young from a girl aged 16, which demonstrated the risk and people to buy its products, to set aside money to inform potential harm to young people from sexting. She said: young people of the dangers of sexting. The industry “I have been in contact with a man who is a lot older than me. should provide an information and advice leaflet with At first, he was nice, complimented my pictures and we became each new mobile phone, warning of the dangers of friends on a social network site. I forgot my phone number was on sexting. It should also pay for advertising on TV and in there and he started texting and calling me, saying explicit things the press and for the promotion of helplines, such as the and sending me sexual photos. He wants me to…have sex and I’m NSPCC’s ChildLine. The leaflet with each new mobile scared. I really don’t want to, but what do I do?” phone should explain how, at the click of a button, an As I have said, today’s young people live in a very image intended for private use can lead to public humiliation different world due to the rapid pace of technological and even fall into the hands of sophisticated sexual change that we have seen during the last 20 years. It has predators. I should like retail sales people to be trained given them unprecedented access to global communication to discuss the risks of sexting when selling phones to and information. However, as I have outlined, there are young people or to adults buying them on their behalf. accompanying risks as a result. Those risks range from The UK Council for Child Internet Safety, which the private photos shared between two young people becoming Minister jointly chairs and on which charities and some public property and leading to humiliation, bullying mobile phone operators sit, has been involved in debates and blackmail to the use of those images for sophisticated about online safety for some time, so I am sure that online sexual grooming. something is being done to make progress. However, I I reiterate that I support the recommendations in the hope the Minister will take my specific ideas about how online child protection inquiry as a step forward in mobile phone industries can do more and raise them at protecting children, and I welcome the child sexual his next meeting with those industries. exploitation action plan that the Minister published last As I have said, what can be seen by young people as year. Local safeguarding children’s boards need to be the relatively harmless activity of sexting can lead to aware of sexting as a tool for sexual grooming, so that quite serious consequences for the young person involved. they develop strategies in their areas to help them to It is important to prevent that, and I feel strongly that safeguard children. by giving more information and increasing awareness What more can be done? Of course sending sexual among children and young people, we may prevent images is a criminal offence. However, I support the further harm coming to them, whether from bullying, guidance of the Association of Chief Police Officers, blackmail or sexual exploitation or grooming. We must which says: do what we can to educate and inform children and “ACPO does not support the prosecution or criminalisation of young people about the risks of sexting, so that their children for taking indecent images of themselves and sharing choices are based on an understanding of the consequences them. Being prosecuted through the criminal justice system is of their actions. The mobile phone companies must likely to be distressing and upsetting for children, especially if take their share of responsibility to help safeguard they are convicted and punished. The label of ‘sex offender’ that children and young people. would be applied to a child or young person convicted of such offences is regrettable, unjust and clearly detrimental to their future health and wellbeing.” 11.12 am I agree that, in most instances and depending on the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education circumstances, sexting should be dealt with under general (Tim Loughton): Mr Caton, it is a pleasure to serve safeguarding. under your chairmanship, and to congratulate the hon. 283WH Sexting and Sexual Grooming25 APRIL 2012 Sexting and Sexual Grooming 284WH

[Tim Loughton] in all areas of child protection and safeguarding is as effective as possible, and that it will always be a priority Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey)on securing the for the Government. debate—not just because it is traditional to do so, but The hon. Lady mentioned the Child Exploitation because of her continuing work on child safeguarding, and Online Protection Centre, which is a beacon. CEOP whether online or in relation to more conventional continues to play a crucial role in ensuring that children forms of abuse of children, if I can call put it like that. are safeguarded, and I pay tribute to its head, Peter She has helped me and the Department with work on Davies. Of course, we should encourage young people child sexual exploitation. The debate is part of raising to use technology, but it is important that they also be awareness of the whole subject, and her work has also made aware of the dangers involved—as should their given rise to a useful article in The Independent today. parents, teachers and others around them. We need to As the hon. Lady knows, there is no silver bullet to continue to raise awareness of the risks and to educate deal with the issues. She was right about the unprecedented young people about staying safe online and offline, and access to global communications that is now available— about the use of mobile technology—particularly the stuff that she and I were never used to as children. It is a sharing of images of themselves and others. good thing, but it brings risks. That is why the UK Young people increasingly use technology not only to Council for Child Internet Safety and others are working stay in touch but to explore things such as sex and to to bring about a big, joined-up approach. Technology push the boundaries in what they send and to whom will always be one step ahead, and we must make sure they send it. Early intervention needs to be part of the that there are as many safeguards as possible, at as solution if we are to educate young people, teachers and many danger points as possible. I am therefore very families about the consequences of their actions and grateful to the hon. Lady for her part in that work, and how to keep children and young people safe. It is now so her kind comments about what we are trying to achieve. easy to send pictures instantly, via emails and texts, and We share the same goals. on Twitter and through other social networking sites, The debate is topical, as the press has been full of that there are instances of boys or girls sending sexual headlines about child online safety, and I reiterate the images of themselves to others without any regard for welcome to last week’s report headed up by my hon. the consequences. Those behaviours are often implicated Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry). I am in patterns of bullying, as the hon. Lady said, with sure that the debate will help us to keep the issue on the messages and images being elicited in a coercive context, radar, and provide an opportunity to show what progress used as blackmail or circulated beyond the intended is being made—and there is progress, even though it recipient. Just because that is technologically easy to may not be as visible as the hon. Member for Stockport do, and the victim may not be standing in front of the and I might want. However, the use of technology to person concerned at the time, does not mean it is the groom children, not least through the internet—and right thing to do. through social networking in particular—has become an increasing cause for concern in recent years. As we Sexting is becoming increasingly part of the mobile are all beginning to recognise, there are close links phone-related child protection context, with many children between the issue of missing children—on which, again, on the receiving end of sexting or sexual bullying. The the hon. Lady is something of a House expert—and the trend of sharing sexual content by mobile phone can grooming of young people for sexual exploitation. also be extremely abusive, and can have a devastating impact on the children affected. The use of technology The Government have understood those links, as she has facilitated that exchange, which can make a young said, and recognise that this must be treated as a strong person feel very uncomfortable and potentially lead to priority. That is reflected in our new missing children harassment. Such young people often find out later that and adults strategy, and the Government’s action plan the image has been passed on to others and, as a result, on tackling child sexual exploitation, both of which they leave themselves open to the risk of becoming the highlight the vulnerabilities of missing children and victims of bullying, harassment or, worse still, sexual young people. It is important that there is a joined-up exploitation. There is a clear link there. The CEOP Government approach. Perhaps I should have pointed threat assessment for 2011-12 sets out six high-priority out earlier that normally one of my colleagues from the threats to children and young people, and includes a Home Office would have replied to the debate today. focus on addressing behaviours by which children put They were not able to do that, but I am rather happier themselves at risk. that I could do it, because the Home Office and the Department for Education in particular work closely I have found the hon. Lady’s remarks helpful. There together. We co-chair UKCCIS, as the hon. Lady knows, is little to disagree with. Having listened to her I am no to make sure that we have a joined-up approach, and less convinced that this issue, like that of missing children the present situation shows how interchangeable the and child sexual exploitation in general, is one where arrangement is. greater co-operation and collaboration between all the In addition, the concept of peer-to-peer sexting is agencies involved is vital. I am dedicated to promoting now raising its head and can have far-reaching consequences that. I recognise her concerns about sexting; we know that need to be addressed. The hon. Lady mentioned from a recent Beat Bullying report that more and more sexting, doxing and all sorts of other terms that I am children and young people are receiving sexually explicit somewhat familiar with as the father to three teenage texts or e-mails and offensive sexual images, and that a children who regularly have to be surgically removed high percentage of them know the identity of the aggressors, from their mobile and other IT devices. I see the situation the majority of whom are their peers. first-hand, and I am sure that the hon. Lady does too. I I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon. Lady said assure her and all hon. Members that the Government about the criminalisation of children. A child may be take seriously our responsibility to ensure that the response committing a criminal offence if they share photographs 285WH Sexting and Sexual Grooming25 APRIL 2012 Sexting and Sexual Grooming 286WH of the type in question, but they would not be automatically Ofcom’s children’s media literacy tracker data reveal criminalised. The prosecuting authorities would take that one third of children aged between 12 and 15 have the circumstances of each case into account, including a smartphone that can access the internet; and 38% of in particular the nature of the photographs, the age and nine to 12-year-olds have a social networking profile. maturity of the children involved and any evidence of People know that to have a Facebook page, a child must coercion or exploitation. However, if a person is over 16 be at least 13, but that cannot be legally enforced. We and is sending a picture of someone who is under the know—and I know from personal experience—that age of 16, they are breaking the law and will be prosecuted younger children are tempted to set up a Facebook site on that basis. and get involved with social media. I also know that in Generally, internet service providers take a responsible too many cases they do that aided and abetted by approach to the content they host, both of their own parents. It is not just a question of giving the information volition and in co-operation with law enforcement and to parents, but making sure that parents are acting Government agencies. Where the industry is advised responsibly on behalf of their children. That is why that the content it hosts in the UK contravenes legislation, education is such a joined-up exercise. To educate the it will readily remove it. We need to do more to ensure parents, we need to say, “Would you really want your that it is more immediately removed. There is a clear child having access to this sort of dangerous content or line of communication between the offended party—parents the ability to be the victim of sexting and other such or others—who sees this material and the people with things?” We also need to teach children at school and at responsibility for controlling and eliminating it. other places about the hazards of all of this and ensure The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre that teachers are fully engaged, too. has, through its education awareness and skills work UKCCIS is aware that children are using the internet stream, developed a specific educational resource to at an earlier age and that the internet is increasingly tackle this very issue. The hon. Lady mentioned this mobile. Children use their mobile phones not only to resource, which is for use in the classroom by teachers text but to access the internet and social networks. and forms part of CEOP’s thinkuknow campaign. This Mobiles are a particular focus of current UKCCIS is designed to reduce the harm caused to children work. through the misuse of technology to sexually abuse or Later today, I am chairing a round-table meeting of exploit them. The resource includes the video “Exposed”, mobile phone manufacturers, retailers, network operators a 10-minute drama dealing with sexting and cyber-bullying and software manufacturers to discuss how they can designed for 14 to 18 year olds. Its messages include, offer better parental controls and choices to parents “Always think before you send or share. Think about and give clear online safety information to parents and how it will affect others and yourself. Remember that children. Good practice is happening already. I have pictures you take and send may become public and here a selection of leaflets that are issued by some of the permanent and the police may get involved.” Once mobile operators and retailers, and I want to see more something is on the internet, it may be there indefinitely. of this. I want them to be more child and parent-friendly, It may come back to haunt the person involved. and for them to be standard and unavoidably attached The messages continue, “If you need someone to talk to mobile phones before they are switched on. That is to, you can call ChildLine.” I take the hon. Lady’s point not rocket science. We are moving in the right direction, about the importance of some of our helplines, especially but I want it to move faster and in a more comprehensive ChildLine, in which the Government invest a lot of manner. taxpayers’ money. There is also the opportunity for The mobile phone sector is aware of the need to commercial companies to make their contribution, which signpost to ChildLine if a child is upset. For example, will be greatly welcomed—whether it is with or without Carphone Warehouse has a leaflet about safe internet tax relief is another matter. “Thinkuknow and the Safer use that is given to parents. It includes reference to Internet Centre can also offer tips and advice. If you sexting and signposts to ChildLine. Everything Everywhere need to make a report, report directly to ClickCeop.” has produced an internet safety leaflet distributed via The UK Council on Child Internet Safety, which I Orange. “Orange, a guide for parents” warns against co-chair, works to improve the awareness and understanding sending bullying images. More is also being done to of parents, children and teachers regarding online safety. encourage retail environments to highlight internet safety That includes educating children and young people issues: Tesco is looking to train phone shop staff; Dixons about the implications of their online behaviour and carries internet safety messages on receipt wallets; and the “digital footprint” they leave, particularly where John Lewis is also engaged in this area. information or images of an extremely personal nature are concerned. On the board of UKCCIS are BT, 02, BlackBerry Important work was undertaken earlier this year: and Samsung. None the less, I agree that there is scope CEOP led in the creation of UKCCIS advice. That for stepping up our efforts through UKCCIS to encourage advice is designed for use by those who provide internet mobile phone operators and the retail industry to play a services used by children, for example Facebook and greater part in publicising the dangers of sexting. The Microsoft. The advice has a section on “sharing” hon. Lady mentioned the idea of having adverts, which information, which explains the impact that sharing an is a perfectly reasonable way of communicating that image can have, such as losing control and ownership of message. I will use many of her points to challenge the it. Organisations such as Facebook and Microsoft, which people at this round-table discussion later today and are engaged with UKCCIS, ensure that the messages will happily report back to her later. they carry on their services are in line with this advice so I am clear that more can and should be done to that whichever service young people use, they receive address this issue and to educate our children about the clear and consistent messages about positive online risks they face if they get involved in or receive this type behaviour and what to do if they need help. of communication. Work continues across Government 287WH Sexting and Sexual Grooming 25 APRIL 2012 288WH

[Tim Loughton] Mayoral Referendums and national and local agencies to improve and ensure that our response is robust, and that includes more generally on tackling child sexual exploitation. At the [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] local level, agencies who work with children and young people need to be aware of the signs that show that 2.30 pm young people are being groomed for sexual exploitation, and to know how to intervene in an appropriate way. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): It is a pleasure Such agencies include the police, children’s services, to take part in this debate under your chairmanship, parents and voluntary groups. The hon. Lady mentioned Mrs Main. On looking around this Chamber, I note the local safeguarding children’s boards, and yes, this many familiar faces from a previous debate that took issue should be on their radar as well as other safeguarding place here in October 2010, when my hon. Friend the against sexual exploitation issues. Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) initiated a similar discussion. Things have moved on significantly from At the national level, I am taking the Government that point. I support the Government’s policy to initiate lead on tackling child sexual exploitation. I have led in referendums in 10 of our cities, and I also commend the development of an action plan to safeguard children Liverpool council for taking the plunge and deciding and young people caught up in this form of child abuse, for itself that elected mayors are the future form of and the hon. Lady has been a part of that, for which I leadership. That is certainly the case for our major am grateful. cities, and I hope it will be for many more of our local I hope I have provided some reassurance that the authorities, starting with those currently enjoying unitary Government are absolutely committed to protecting status. This must be just the beginning. children and to tackling the challenges in this area. We By way of background, I should say that I come to are not complacent and recognise that we need to keep the debate as someone who served for 26 years as a under review all aspects of our work to tackle grooming councillor. I served for 14 years under the two-tier in all its forms. We are all determined to do everything system when, between 1980 and 1994, I was a member we can to protect children in our communities, while of the former Great Grimsby borough council. At that allowing them space and room to develop and enjoy point, the electorate decided that I needed a rest. I think technologies in safe and responsible ways. it was something to do with describing myself as the I repeat my thanks to the hon. Lady for securing this Conservative candidate that resulted in my enforced debate, for further raising the profile of the issue, and absence from the council chamber for five years. At that for her ongoing helpful and constructive engagement time, the party was going through a period that comes with me and the Government to promote the common to all parties: that of unpopularity. Such a time almost goal of ensuring that all our children are safer online. always follows a long period in power. Labour Members will know exactly what I mean, as many of their own 11.28 am councillors have gone through a similar process in recent Sitting suspended. years. When I returned to council, thankfully, the two-tier system had been swept away. In my area, that had the added bonus of doing away with the unloved—and I would perhaps go as far as to say hated—county of Humberside. How much better the unitary system is. I would create unitary councils headed by elected mayors across the board, but because I support the localist agenda, I would leave councils free to determine the powers they want to give their mayor within a menu set by legislation. I accept there are geographical difficulties in some of our larger and more rural areas, in the sense that it is more difficult for individuals to become local personalities when a county is 70 or 80 miles wide. In my county, Lincolnshire county council covers the distance from, for example, Gainsborough in the north to Spalding in the south, which is some 70 miles. That presents difficulties in what is inevitably a presidential-style contest where party labels mean less. However, at a time when—let us be honest—the profession of politician is not the highest ranked in the country, that is just one of the plus factors. More independent-minded individuals without that party label may well emerge; or, indeed, there may be individuals with a party label who have a much more independent streak. One has only to look at the current mayoral race in London to appreciate that although party allegiance is there to indicate to the voter the general direction of travel, it is a far looser allegiance than in a traditional council election. 289WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 290WH

We cannot wait for local authorities themselves to until the Minister with responsibility for planning, my decide whether to opt for an elected mayor, as, with right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells perhaps a few rare exceptions, they will not. We need to (Greg Clark), got to grips with it. break down the existing cosy arrangements. Many councils I entirely agree with other parts of Simon Jenkins’ will not even opt for a referendum and let their voters article. He states: decide. “the London mandate secured more cash for police and transport and spattered central London with lofty towers.” Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman is outlining some of the plus I am not so sure about that one, but he goes on to state: points, and I congratulate him on his success in obtaining “In the past four years…Boris Johnson has subsidised cycling the debate. The concept of directly elected mayors has and dug up every road. Like them or loathe them, these men have been around for some time. Can he explain why, in most put city politics on the map. Hustings are packed. London’s civic of the mayoral referendums, the turnouts have been life has never been so vibrant.” fairly derisory—in some cases, they have been down to In some respects, the campaign might not have been all 15% to 20%—and why the majority of those who did that edifying, but it has certainly grabbed the interest of participate voted against the concept? far more voters than a traditional council election. It is the political process that energises and gives Martin Vickers: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that direction to our system of governance, whether at a intervention. I accept the fact that turnouts have been national or local level. However, we can do better. We low—that is an inevitable consequence. The simple fact can transform politics by introducing more direct elections. is that it is a rather techy, anoraky subject in which we Yes, many of those will be personality contests like the politicians, but perhaps few others, love to engage. Boris versus Ken show. Whether we like it or not, However, democracy is about having the opportunity to personalities have always played a major role in politics, participate in the process. The public are at liberty to and leadership, in part, results from the individual engage, or not. personality of the person. However, from the public’s point of view, that is exactly what should happen. As I Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): Does say, we must sweep away the existing cosy arrangements. my hon. Friend agree that, in many cases, the difficulty The petition threshold of 5% that is needed for the in getting people engaged in the mayoral political debate electorate to trigger a referendum is too large. If we is testament to the kind of political disengagement that support localism, as we all purport to, it should be has arisen from a council system that people do not feel made easier for voters to initiate the process. Obtaining has served them? In Bristol, we are struggling with voter the support of 5% of the people does not sound like a apathy because people do not feel that the political big deal—until one gets out on the streets to try to system is serving them well and they are fed up with secure those genuine signatures. In the two unitary party politics. That disengagement is in itself testament authorities that serve my constituency, that equates to to the need for a mayor. more than 6,000 signatures. I can tell hon. Members that getting that number is extremely difficult. About Martin Vickers: I fully endorse what my hon. Friend 10 years ago I tried to do so, but local circumstances says. I hope to expand on some of those points in the changed and the momentum was lost. next few minutes. We need to reduce that threshold significantly. Councils Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): should still have the opportunity to initiate a referendum, Before the hon. Gentleman moves on from the question but we need to make it much easier for the public. Much of why we should have referendums and the issue of is made of the potential downsides of having elected engagement, does he share my puzzlement that on mayors, such as the possibility that extremists will be something as real as a mayor, we have a referendum, yet elected. On the whole, the British people are rather something as unreal and obscure as police commissioners moderate in their political views. On occasion, they may is imposed on us? elect an eccentric—some would argue that anyone who enters the political arena qualifies as being eccentric—but Martin Vickers: To be honest, I would have mayors there is no real evidence that extremists would be elected. imposed on councils. As I have said, the best form of Electing an eccentric might seem rather British; electing local government is single-tier authorities headed by an an extremist is very un-British. elected mayor. I also favour more directly elected positions I welcome the fact that we have 10 referendums within society and fully support the introduction of taking place next week in some of our major cities. That elected police commissioners. is a start, but as I have said, let us not restrict them to Returning to my point about councils not choosing cities. My constituency straddles two unitary authorities, to go down this road voluntarily, I would not go as far with two wards in North Lincolnshire and a larger part as Simon Jenkins who said in last week’s Guardian that in North East Lincolnshire. There are three main areas mayors would replace “shadowy civic mafias.” I also do of population: Immingham and Cleethorpes in my not agree with him that cities have been held back by constituency; and Great Grimsby, a self-contained former party complacency. That may well be true in some borough seat soon to expand into Cleethorpes if the cases, but to blame political parties per se is simply Boundary Commission gets its way, much to the horror wrong. I would argue that bureaucracy and regulation of the locals. at a national and EU level has had a lot to do with it. As the Minister found out when he paid his first visit Bearing in mind Sir Simon’s recent engagement in there a few weeks ago, Grimsby and Cleethorpes are arguments about the planning system, I would say that joined at the hip, or certainly at the Park street border that system itself has something to answer for—at least where we position sentries alongside the passport control 291WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 292WH

[Martin Vickers] who are involved in the decision-making process. I have previously proposed that local authorities need an officer barriers. More seriously, they are in effect one town, at director level who is not a part of the established though with distinct identities. It is these provincial service, but who is appointed by, and responsible to, a towns such as Grimsby and Cleethorpes, and many group of chairmen of scrutiny panels. others—Huddersfield, Halifax and Scunthorpe, to name I digress. To return to my main theme, mayors can be but a few—that are at risk of being left behind if we passionate advocates for economic investment, but equally concentrate too much on cities. Cleethorpes, Grimsby they can be powerful voices against developments that and similar towns think that big cities get far more than their local communities oppose. That allows me to put their fair share as it is. We would like another advocate forward the thought that, although I favour unitary for our communities. Perhaps elected mayors in provincial authorities headed by an elected mayor, that does not areas, working in tandem with Members of Parliament, preclude smaller towns in that authority area having would be more of a thorn in the side of Governments of their own elected head. I know that my hon. Friend the whatever complexion than a council leader. We must Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) hope that that would be beneficial to such local favours that and will no doubt speak on it in a few communities. If, as is the case, the Government believe minutes. Currently, in effect we have a two-tier mayoral that elected mayors are desirable, then I say to them: get system in parts of London, so we should not rule it out on with it and do not dawdle. Make it easier for my elsewhere. The elected mayors in London seem to rub constituents and others to initiate the process of a along with the Borises and Kens of this world reasonably referendum and let us see what the people think. I well. There will be tensions, of course, and these changes suspect that in many areas, particularly with a local will alter the dynamics between various councils and push, they would go for it. individuals, just as another constitutional change I favour, Of course, local councillors are not over-keen. It is a an elected House of Lords, will change the dynamics potential threat, a step into the unknown, and it introduces between the upper and lower House. an element of uncertainty into the often predictable I will now expand on what I see as the key functions world where Labour win when there is a Tory Government of the mayor. I mentioned economic development and and the Tories win when there is a Labour Government. regeneration earlier, and they are certainly vital ingredients. But I say to them: take up the challenge. After all, many Infrastructure and transport are essential. They are all candidates for mayor will come from the ranks of part of a growing local economy. What is certainly existing councillors. I can think of half a dozen or so in essential is forceful political leadership—someone in my constituency who would be real contenders for the charge. As MPs, we are all well aware that we live in a position. global economy. Business leaders travel from all over Elected mayors would not be drawn just from the the world to consider investment decisions. In many of ranks of our existing politicians; representatives of the our overseas competitor towns and cities, they can meet voluntary sector, business leaders, trades unionists and with the top man or woman because they can be decisive many more would be drawn in. The attraction of an and offer clear direction. Here, it is somewhat different—our executive position will have far more appeal to more decision-making process is often tortuous. Our mayors people than the traditional role of a councillor. We need could be as decisive. more individuals to become involved with our local parties, so that they can be considered for candidacy. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): Does my hon. Friend Open primaries would help to bring more people into agree that it is incumbent on central Government to the process of selecting candidates. Too often, selection decentralise further powers to the local authorities, is by a small group—I know, as I have been one of particularly to elected mayors? them. Whatever can be said in its favour, it is certainly not open and transparent. Martin Vickers: Yes, I favour my hon. Friend’s suggestion. The process of devolution and localism has only just As I have said, we need to reduce dramatically the started, and has a long way to go. threshold for initiating a referendum. Let us put real I note that those trying to undermine the elected power back into the hands of local people and make it mayor project have been saying that not enough high-profile much easier for the population at large to kick-start potential candidates have come forward. That is perfectly that referendum. In no way do I wish to play down the understandable, until we know the outcome of the role of the traditional councillor—I would not have various votes next week. stuck at it for 26 years otherwise. There will still be an important job to do. Individual wards and communities Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): Does my need their advocates to argue not just in favour of hon. Friend agree that one of the alleged reasons why things, but against them, too. With neighbourhood high-calibre candidates have not come forward so far is plans to produce and the opportunity for elected members a lack of control over budgets—that they want some to work more closely with our voluntary and charitable kind of budgetary responsibility before they put themselves groups, churches and others, public satisfaction would in that position? increase. Importantly, executive mayors need effective scrutiny. Martin Vickers: I agree. My understanding, from the Scrutiny in its present form does not work, as I think speeches I have heard the Minister make, is that where many who have served on local authorities would agree. we are is only the starting point and there is much It is not sufficiently detached from the decision-making further to go. It is understandable that some of the high process. Scrutiny is seen as a necessary evil by any profile candidates have not yet come forward. The administration. Even when serviced by able officers, example of police and crime commissioners seems to they will almost certainly be junior to the senior managers indicate that once these positions become a reality, 293WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 294WH people do come forward. In my own police area of place. It has long been my view—after about a year of Humberside, the former Deputy Prime Minister, no settling in and getting to understand how the system less, has indicated that he hopes to be a candidate. Had worked, I became pretty disillusioned with it—that I do a referendum for the post of elected mayor of Hull been not believe that it works. I do not believe that it can be approved, he may even have gone for what I suggest made to work. would be an even higher profile local position. In 2001, Labour proposed elected mayors. We set up I do not know how many yes votes will be recorded a system that all hon. Members in this Chamber will next week, but even just one will be a step in the right know allowed for a petition to be raised, as the hon. direction. The momentum is with those of us who Gentleman mentioned, to get a referendum. Not many believe that elected mayors can provide a more determined petitions have been raised. If I believed that the reason and dynamic leadership, not because the individuals are for those petitions not being raised over that intervening better than the many hard-working council leaders, but period was a high level of satisfaction with the current because the position of mayor will be more prominent system and that nobody really wanted change, I assure and will provide a better platform to give the leadership the House that my support for the mayoral model our towns and cities require in a competitive environment. would have waned considerably. However, the petitions Two or three weeks ago, the Prime Minister gave a have not been raised because we face, as the hon. boost to the campaign with a reception in Downing Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) said street. On that occasion, I detected a real buzz about the earlier, almost total apathy in respect of local government. place, not just from enthusiastic politicians such as We do not have—we do not enjoy—local democracy in myself—the Minister and other hon. Members were England at all; it does not exist. present and were equally enthusiastic—but, more noticeably, On 3 May, a third of the people of Coventry will vote, from the leaders of our business communities. Significantly, and they will do so almost overwhelmingly on national the Prime Minister announced that there would be a issues, not local issues. Political parties and councillors new mayors’ cabinet, giving mayors better access to know and understand that. Indeed, I have not studied Government and the first choice of many funding streams the Conservative leaflets in Coventry—if they have and regeneration initiatives. been put out at all—but my own party’s leaflets cover Turning to a few comments that I noted from other police and NHS cuts, overwhelmingly. Why? We know hon. Members, the Centre for Cities has argued that, that that is how to appeal to the electorate, and we want although they are no panacea for growth, elected mayors to win. This is not about council services, development have the potential to support economic growth if they of the manifesto locally or about what the council is or are given the right powers to do so. The 3 May elections is not going to do. The product of that is a massive are focusing only on local authority mayors, although increase in apathy about local democracy, the potential in reality, as Greater Manchester has recognised, a city’s for local leadership and the important services that economy is not restricted by political borders. councils provide. Wilson and Game, in their assessment in their book, There is also an impact on councillors. In what other “Local Government in the United Kingdom” noted walk of life would we consider it good and acceptable— that mayors something that we ought to continue with—to have a “may be few in number, but most, if not all, of these elected system where people know that their policies, credible mayors have, in their own council areas, undoubtedly ‘made a or incredible, make no difference to their success. However, difference’. They are far better known than their predecessor local government elections can be affected organisationally; council leaders ever were; they have raised their councils’ profiles, we have all done it and participated in it. and in several cases stimulated a change in their political complexion; and most are associated with a number of personal policy initiatives Councillors and councils fall or stand on the national and campaigns.” trend. Councillors know that. In 2004, the Labour I am sure the Minister will take the opportunity that party lost control of Coventry city council, not because this debate offers to urge yes votes. It might be an we as a party lost control of it or because it was a bad exaggeration to say that this will be a new dawn for local council, but because in that year the then Prime Minister, politics—when politicians use such phrases, it is usually Tony Blair, was somewhat unpopular in the country. It hyperbole—but it is certain that elected mayors are a was as simple as that. We wound up with a Conservative step in the right direction. I hope that voters in our council for six years, which fell in 2010, in large part cities will vote yes, and that there will be a lot more yes because the local election was on the same day as the votes to follow. general election and, in an overwhelmingly Labour city, the turnout was well up and the Conservative council was swept away as a result. I do not think that that was 2.51 pm a particularly good council—it was worthy of considerable Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): It is criticism—but it knew, and we knew, that it would lose a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cleethorpes an election called on 6 May 2010. (Martin Vickers). I agree with an awful lot of what he said. However, I most certainly disagree with the most Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Does high-profile thing that he said about the Prime Minister’s the right hon. Gentleman agree that support for local advocacy. I do not want the Prime Minister to come to government, and more interest in local politics, would Coventry to advocate for an elected mayor. That would be helped by never having local elections on the same not go down nearly as well as it might in the hon. day as a general election? Gentleman’s constituency. I cannot boast 26 years in local government as the Mr Ainsworth: I have not thought about it and I am hon. Gentleman can, but I did eight years as a member not dead sure about the degree to which it would, but of Coventry city council before being elected to this having a mayoral system in our cities—like the hon. 295WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 296WH

[Mr Ainsworth] certainly not the case, because there is a turnover of population and a loss of community. It almost does not Gentleman, I would be interested in the proposition matter how long some individuals toil away at leading going further than just in cities—would provide some their city, the majority of the population probably do mitigation against the domination of national politics not know who they are. in local affairs. Of course, the national trend would still I was about to move on to the potential benefits of have an effect; to suggest that it would disappear entirely bridging the democratic deficit, because none of it would be naive. matters greatly to the majority of the people of this On the suggestion about replacing local politics with country or to the electorate in such places if it is not independents, I am sure that we all know people from making a difference. Irrespective of our political views, our parties who share our beliefs but choose to cover how many of us believe that our cities are doing as well their colours in particular parts of the country, because as they could? None of us believes that, so we ought to they know that if they wear their rosette and show their be looking for some improvement, not only for democratic colours they will not get elected. Therefore, they stand reasons but for economic regeneration and performance. as independents. That is, to a degree, dishonest. Coventry, the city in which I was born and raised, is A mayoral system, such as we are seeing in London the most central city in England; we have excellent and will see elsewhere, would force people to think well transport links, rail and road, to every corner of the beyond the allegiances of their own political party and country, we enjoy a pleasant environment for the city—the about the city as a whole: Coventry, for example. That Warwickshire countryside is second to none—and we would give people at least a degree of ability to buck the have an enterprising population. Why therefore are national trend. People would be, to a greater extent we not doing better than we are? With leadership, we than exists at the moment, genuinely accountable to could be doing that little bit better and be pushing that their local populations, surviving on their own abilities, little bit harder. To return to the issue of democracy, popularity and the policies that they pursued and, in Coventry we would probably be demanding—with therefore, their ability, to some degree only, to get credibility—increased powers in order to be able to lead themselves re-elected off the back of their own policies. the city. In recent years, the people of London have The mayoral system would bring those benefits and managed to get from central Government increased the potential for leadership. In saying that, I do not powers over their own local government, under both denigrate councillors. Many people dedicate themselves Ken and Boris. The people of Scotland and Wales have to local government over the years, toiling away, trying managed the same, but otherwise our local government to make their cities and communities better places for is so weak in comparison with Whitehall and Westminster little remuneration, but they are largely—it is not their that it has been unable to get the powers that it needs to own fault—unknown within the communities that they represent properly its constituencies and communities, represent. Walking the streets of Coventry, the majority which deserve so much. of people do not know who the leader of the council is. That is not the fault of the leader of the council. The With a mayoral system, over time, local government Conservative leader of the council for six years, up to would get those powers. I know all the arguments about 2010, was largely unknown as well. The system prevents not much being on offer, but that is not how things them from being able to give the leadership that is so work. When we set up the London Mayor, there were necessary in the modern world. far fewer powers than now, but the Mayors have been back to the well and asked for more water, as have Those of us who have been lucky enough over the Scotland and Wales. Would not powerful mayors in years to travel and to mix and converse with leaders of English cities ask for exactly the same? They would, and cities in other countries, know that in many countries—those they would be in a far better position to get it. with which we have to compete—there is a far higher degree of self-reliance. People in cities in Germany do Mayors would be a big improvement in how cities are not look in much degree to Berlin, or even to Stuttgart run and in how the country is run. Think of the benefit or Munich, for leadership. There is a lot of leadership of powerful people from the provinces—from Bristol, and a lot more powers in the city itself and, as a result, from Leeds—talking to this place from outside London those cities are more successful. and saying, irrespective of party, “Oi, mate! That ain’t how it works in the real world.” They would be listened None of the democratic deficit that I have been to. I am afraid that I do not know who the leader of talking about, however, matters much to our constituents Leeds is, or of Bristol, although I know the leader of if it does not make a difference. Coventry and who the mayor of Leicester is, but if someone like me, steeped in politics, does not know who Charlotte Leslie: Does the right hon. Gentleman the leaders of our great cities are, that is an indication agree that continuity of leadership is important? In a that local government is not punching its weight in our city such as Bristol, where the council changes colours country. frequently, there has been a number of council leaders over the past 10 years. Recognising the council leaders is even more difficult, because they change so often, and Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): My that makes the long-term, strategic vision for an area right hon. Friend is making an interesting argument far more difficult. about giving cities more powers. However, in London the Mayor represents 32 local authorities, which is very Mr Ainsworth: I am not so sure that I do agree. There different from a city such as Nottingham, which is too are communities that are far more settled—there is small to take on those extra powers. The opportunity more community in existence—and where people will should be on offer for city regions, rather than single be better known, although in many of our cities that is local authorities. 297WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 298WH

Mr Ainsworth: My own party played with the idea of that at any moment, some regulation, law or arbitrary city regions when we were in power. We thought seriously directive from an anonymous and unseen official will about them, and they might work in some areas. I do get in the way of what they want. Whether it is the not come from Greater Manchester, but my impression imposition of a supermarket on a town where nobody is that that area is a real entity. If so, a metro-mayor or wants it, the imposition of a wind turbine on a valley whatever for Greater Manchester might make a lot of where nobody wants it or the closure of a care home, a sense. The west midlands, however, is not such an area. community hospital or a school, local communities The proposition that we were toying with was a city show again and again that they are desperate to express region from Telford in the west to Coventry in the their desires, but they have no way of doing so. east—some 50-odd miles—which is not a real community. That, of course, brings local communities to their I agree with the hon. Member for Cleethorpes: we Members of Parliament, and a great thing that is for us, should build institutions on real communities—existing, as Members of Parliament, because we enjoy it enormously; recognisable ones that people already see themselves as it takes us away from the strange, arbitrary abstractions part of and buy into—and give them the necessary and of the House of Commons and gives us something relevant powers. Let us have some real local government, useful and practical to do. From a selfish point of view, not an imposed London template; let us look from the we are grateful that we can deal with such local issues, bottom up and not from the top down. What is Coventry which are more real than the issues we deal with in the capable of doing on its own? Let us empower Coventry House of Commons most of the time. However, we to do those things on its own and, if Birmingham is should not be dealing with such things, which should capable of a different set of things, let us empower not, ultimately, rest with the House of Commons. It Birmingham to do those different things. Let us stop would be better for us, local communities and Britain, if thinking from the top and start thinking from the we located such issues with a directly elected local bottom, if we want a revival of our democracy and the mayor. potential help to our economy. That is true partly because Britain and British identity Finally, from the point of view of my own little city have changed. Britain is no longer obsessed with projecting of Coventry, I fear that, with Leicester already having a national power. The fact that we are, for some bizarre mayor, if Birmingham has one and we do not, we will reason, completely obsessed with Scandinavia—watching lose a relevant voice and a say. I do not want my city to Danish television or looking earnestly at Finland, wondering be any less influential than it is—quite the reverse. whether its educational statistics are better than ours— shows that this country is increasingly interested with Several hon. Members rose— the local, not with the projection of grand power. We are therefore interested in making things work Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Before I call the next well for our own intimate communities, and we have speaker, I remind those trying to catch my eye that I will astonishing skills when it comes to delivering such be calling the Front Benchers from 3.40 pm. Next, I call things—skills that did not exist 120 years ago. However Rory Stewart. much we grumble about education, this country is far more deeply educated, healthy and engaged than it has 3.8 pm ever been, and we see that in our performance at local level. Everybody in this room will see the most astonishing Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): Thank things being done in their local communities. In Cumbria, you very much, Mrs Main. I pay great tribute to my for example, we have seen the creation of affordable hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) housing in Crosby Ravensworth driven entirely by the and, in fact, to the three Cs showing the common sense local community. We have also seen something similar at the heart of local government: Cleethorpes, Coventry on broadband, and we are now getting fibre-optic cables and my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John to the most remote valleys in the whole of England. Stevenson). After perhaps 1,000 hours’ work, communities are signing It is a great privilege to be in the Chamber today, up 80% of the people in them for broadband, waiving because the debate shows why local government matters. wayleaves and working out how to dig the trenches for The reason why the debate is good is that it is one of the fibre-optic cables. those rare occasions in the House of Commons when However, we are not going far enough, and we could one feels that people know what they are talking about. do much more. The sad truth behind a lot of these Often in the Chamber of the House, I wonder where the stories is that, in the absence of a local champion, expertise is. In Westminster Hall today, we have more things are not working as quickly or as well as they than 20 years’ expertise and all the speakers are talking should. To take the example of broadband, officials are about something that matters to them and that they still telling us, despite all the work that local communities know about. That is why we should all support local have done, that state aid regulations and procurement government, more local government and still more local complications are delaying projects, meaning that they government. will take 12 months longer than they need to. Communities The past 120 years have seen an astonishing destruction are being slapped in the face, and despite putting in all of British local government, resulting in the situation that work and energy, they are not getting what they that all of us see day to day in our surgeries: the great should at the end. sense of ennui. The right hon. Member for Coventry All over the world, we see models showing why local North East (Mr Ainsworth) referred to the anonymity government works. We see them not just in Germany, of councillors—the sense that people do not know to which the right hon. Member for Coventry North East whom to speak. We continually encounter citizens’ mentioned, but in France, in places such as Montpellier frustration with the system and their terrible feeling and Lyons. Thirty years ago those were depressing 299WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 300WH

[Rory Stewart] being about personalities, rather than politics. London is a good example, and the debates going on at the places, but under strong local leadership they are now moment clearly show that the issue is personalities, not splendid places. That is not because they have more politics. The debate is not about the merits or otherwise money, but because the people controlling the money of the policies put forward by the two front-runners, are located in Montpellier and Lyons, not Paris, and but about whether people dislike the fact that Ken understand local needs and local imaginations. Livingstone has not paid his taxes or think that Boris We can also see these things in Scotland. Alex Salmond’s Johnson should have come home early when the riots biggest mistake is to believe that his performance is an started. Transport and other issues that should be debated argument for independence; it is not—it is an argument have fallen by the wayside while people look at the in favour of decentralisation. Everything that has gone personalities of the two front-runners. well in Scotland over the past decade has happened There is a question about whether we should force because of the tapping of local energies within a national local authorities to have a referendum against their will, context, which is the precise balance we want. We must given that plenty are considering going down that route use the strengths of a vast country and a vast economy. or have already gone down it. In Salford, for instance, This country is no Denmark or Norway—it is Great local residents triggered a referendum, and an election Britain, and our economy is 12 times the size of those is taking place next week for a mayor. That said, only countries’. We have Sterling, we have our Foreign Office 18.1% of the 171,000 eligible voters took part in the and we have our Army, and within that national context, referendum. None the less, there was a comfortable local things can be done well. That is what the Scottish majority in support of having a mayor. I rather suspect National party—at its best, when it understands these that the turnout in Manchester will be significantly things—shows locally, not through a push for independence higher than 18.1%, but only because the vote will be on but through a push for autonomy. the same day as the local elections. People will want to Why do we want local mayors? They will harness and participate in the local election, rather than the referendum tap local energy and the educated, healthy, dynamic for an elected mayor, so I seriously doubt whether the population we have created over decades. They will be higher turnout will mean there is more interest in the able to use local knowledge and to understand local mayoral referendum or the idea of having an elected issues. In London, I have a big problem explaining mayor; that will not be what pushes people to take part exactly what is happening with broadband in Mallerstang, in next Thursday’s election. Certainly, in my experience in Cumbria, because it involves complicated local questions. of knocking on many doors during the election campaign If I take the issue to a Minister, the civil servant will of the past few weeks, I have not seen massive enthusiasm whack it back and say, “No, no, it’s much more complicated for the referendum. In fact, only one person has raised than that. There are big issues about state aid and the issue with me on the doorstep, and that was someone procurement.” It is difficult to get such things across. who simply wanted to know my view. She had no We therefore need somebody who uses local knowledge. particular view, and was not even sure whether she Finally, we need somebody who uses local trust. would vote in the referendum. Elected local mayors are a way of rebuilding not just local democracy but national democracy. If we can tap Lilian Greenwood: The hon. Gentleman’s experience the new British genius for the local, create a connection is similar to mine. Does he think that part of the reason between citizens and elected local mayors, and restore is, first, that the Government have not made it clear faith in politics at the most local level—the politics of what extra powers are available, and secondly that they the city-state, where every citizen confronts their have not consulted local people about the geographic representative on the street, lives through the practical cover needed to reflect what the local community is, and problems and decisions of politics, and understands the have instead imposed a Whitehall-led model on our messy compromises, the courage and the idealism of core cities? politics in their market square—we have a hope of restoring faith in not only the local, but the national. Mr Leech: There are several reasons for lack of enthusiasm. I suspect that in Manchester it is partly to 3.16 pm do with the fact that the political parties are concentrating Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): It is more on the local elections than on trying to force a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. people out to vote in the referendum. I shall come on I congratulate the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin to that, but I do not believe that we should have the Vickers) on securing this important debate. referendum on the same day as the local election. I I wanted to take part in the debate mainly because think that the crux of the problem is that we are not my home city of Manchester is one of the local authorities giving people the opportunity to debate the issue of the that will hold a referendum on local election day next mayoral referendum, because there are other issues that week. I should start by laying my cards on the table and they want to discuss. People are interested in who will saying that I have never been a supporter of elected be their local councillor—not in whether we shall have mayors, but if the people of Manchester vote for a an elected mayor for the city of Manchester. mayor next week, I will not lose any sleep over it, I understand the Government’s argument for holding because the issue is not massively important to me or the referendum on the same day as the local elections, people in Manchester. Indeed, apathy has been the big because clearly that saves an awful lot of money. winner so far. I certainly do not object to holding a referendum on Ms Gisela Stuart: I want to endorse what the hon. whether local people want an elected mayor, but the Gentleman said. It is extraordinary that when there are nature of mayoral elections means they always end up issues that divide political parties—whether alternative 301WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 302WH vote, or, as now, the mayor—as polling day gets closer, Anyone who visits my constituency will see a large, the political parties focus on getting their councillors red brick clock tower, affectionately referred to as Old elected, and there is no debate on the issue. With Joe, which is a reference to Joe Chamberlain, who was hindsight, the Minister may want to reflect that, if there said to make the weather. That was a reference to the are referendums that do not fall along party political fact that he was, in the 1870s, a ceremonial mayor, but lines, combining them with party political elections is turned himself within three years into the effective not a good idea. Prime Minister of Birmingham. Any decent mayor will make the weather and take on powers, rather than use Mr Leech: The hon. Lady makes a fair point, and I what central Government give. However, a word of have always argued that we should keep individual caution is needed: if powers are given without resources, elections separate—whether local, general or European—so those concerned may acquire responsibilities that they that we can at least try to focus people’s attention on the cannot fulfil, enabling central Government to wash issues on which they are being asked to have an opinion. their hands of things for which they would rather not If elected mayors are so worth while—enough to take responsibility. hold a referendum on them—should not we have ensured I urge the Minister to think about that, even if the that we could engage in proper debate, by putting the result in the referendum is much worse than he expects. referendums on separate days? Then the community I have been talking to people on the phone: when I first could have a real debate on the issues, and the merits or saw the question I thought it was extremely favourable—but otherwise of an elected mayor, instead of seeing it as a then there is the question of how it appears cold, on the bit of an afterthought, which is how it is being viewed in ballot paper, without any real debate. The majority of Manchester. people know that there is a lord mayor; when the ballot Having said that I am not a fan of elected mayors, I uses the term “mayor” they think, “Is this a different accept that they can be successful. A lot will depend on mayor?” and cannot work out what the difference is. We the calibre of the candidates and the person elected. talk about civic mayors, and Ken, and they say, “What Because there will be a mayor in Salford, if Manchester is it, then?” We may not get as good an outcome as votes no that will be a great opportunity for Salford, hoped, and I hope that at that moment the Minister will which will be the only local authority in the area with a use the rather nice “get out of jail” card from the mayor. That mayor will be able to raise Salford’s profile. Localism Act 2011—the reference to other qualifying I mean no disrespect to Salford, but it has for many authorities, which I assume means that there can be years played second fiddle to Manchester, which is seen devolution of power to local authorities even if they do as the big city. The danger is that if Manchester votes not choose to have a directly elected mayor. yes, and we end up with a Manchester mayor, the Salford mayor will become peripheral to the Manchester The Minister must face up to something very mayor, who may be a famous person or celebrity, or a uncomfortable. When, in 1997, the Labour Government high-profile politician, and seem significantly more started devolving power, it did a good job in dealing important than the mayor of Salford. I stress that I am with Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales; but because not trying to show disrespect to Salford, but generally there was deep division in the Labour Government Manchester has a high profile and Salford does not. about whether we wanted regional government or city regions, and we went down the regional government In my view, if Manchester is going to hold a referendum route, which the people, unfortunately, did not particularly on a mayor, it would be better if the question was on a like—and given, also, that we have devolved power to mayor for Greater Manchester—a point that was made London—the way we devolve power in England is a big by the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian unresolved constitutional issue. It must be dealt with in Greenwood). There are two reasons for that: first, it the context of the outcome of the mayoral elections. would have fitted far better into the model of the joint authority between the 10 Manchester local authorities; The Minister’s task is not made easier by a measure secondly, it would have avoided the prospect of a that I hope we shall somehow manage to lose in the next Manchester mayor trumping the mayor of any other 12 months—the perpetual review of constituency local authority, and being seen as more significant than boundaries. At the moment the Birmingham constituency the mayors of other local authorities. In future, if we boundaries are concurrent with those of the city of are to have mayors, we should consider the most appropriate Birmingham. We have 10 MPs and 40 councillors within area that should be covered. We should not think of those boundaries. If the boundary review goes through basic, single local authorities, but consider what would we shall be all over the place. I shall have bits of Old be best for the area. In Manchester that would probably Warley; bits of Birmingham will be across the M5; be Greater Manchester; in the Coventry area it would Solihull will come in. A city mayor’s area will not even be Coventry; but it would be different in different parts be concurrent with those of his or her councillors or of the country, depending on the make-up of local MPs. That is pretty barking—and that will happen after authorities. every general election, so there will be no continuity. Therefore, if we genuinely want to devolve power to Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. There are two units that mean something, we will have to consider the hon. Members who want to catch my eye, and 15 minutes size of cities. The problem is that Birmingham is too left. I hope that they will bear that in mind when they big. If we were London we would be three or four take interventions. boroughs. Rather than having the local government function of overcoming Whitehall, we neatly duplicate 3.26 pm them and perpetuate the problem. Our wards are larger Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): I than anywhere else in Europe. Multi-councillor wards shall concentrate on points that have not been covered have 20,000 electors, so they are not big enough to be yet in the debate, Mrs Main. strategic, but are far too big to be local. The process of 303WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 304WH

[Ms Gisela Stuart] and it is great to see other parliamentarians taking an interest. There have been 38 referendums, and only having one third up for election every four years with a 14 have said yes, which is shame, but I think that is fallow year, people’s relationship with their councillor, partly because local politicians have been resistant to and the large size of councils is not good for localism. the idea and national politicians have not been willing First, I suggest that the Minister consider not holding to drive it forward and promote it. Again, I think that is future referendums on the same day as other elections, changing. Some councils are using their two-thirds majority because doing so does not allow for proper debate. to introduce elected mayors, as Liverpool and Leicester Secondly, we must knock on the head the notion that have done; some have gone for majority decisions to call so-called independents are the answer. Independents referendums; and there has been the odd petition; but are candidates who cannot rely on local party workers the 5% threshold is putting many people off, and I will who provide us with a low-cost election machinery. If raise that with the Minister in due course. we want independents and a fair playing field, we must I am conscious that I do not have much time, so I talk about costs, but we do not want to go there either. shall concentrate on two aspects. First, I believe that Thirdly, if after the elections not enough cities take elected mayors can be a huge benefit to local government. the opportunity—we do need to devolve power—we In this country, we often underestimate the importance must look at the whole of England and the constituencies and significance of local government. Local councils to see what powers are appropriate. A key one—we will already have powers covering planning, procurement, look to the Minister to see what the Government do—is economic development in their own areas and housing what we do to devolve responsibility and money allocated issues, but our politics are dominated completely by the in relation to public health. If the Government are centre, and that is fundamentally wrong. We underestimate serious, serious amounts of money must be devolved. If what powers they already have and could use, but often they are not, and if the idea is just a fig leaf, we will not do not use effectively. Elected mayors will be personalities have a proper debate. We must also consider local units. who are transparent, known and visible to their local I would expect Birmingham, which for the first time in community, and they may be willing to use existing many years is facing up to deciding what it stands for powers more effectively. and what it is, to look at the way it is governed, and the I want to encourage the Government to continue size of its wards, as well as the devolution process to what I think they are starting to do: to continue the find natural communities. decentralisation process and to give greater powers to Elected mayors are good. We have seen them work on local government, whether using the elected-mayor model the continent. They will be successful only if they work or the present model. Our country is far too centralised, in units that people can relate to. Power must be devolved and we need to spread power out. We have done that sufficiently so that it is meaningful to local people; successfully in Scotland and Wales, and there is no otherwise, the electorate will see it as a self-indulgent reason why we cannot do so in the rest of the country. process, when they are far more concerned about how If mayors are elected for a four-year term and have a to pay their bills and whether they will still have a job mandate from the local people, they have the opportunity tomorrow. to implement their manifesto. At present, Carlisle city councillors are elected in thirds. That creates chaos, 3.32 pm because they are never quite sure whether they will be in control. It is fair enough if the council has a majority John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I congratulate my that will carry it through two elections, but otherwise hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) councillors are always thinking about the next election on securing this debate, which is incredibly timely given and not planning for the future. that we have elections in eight days. He mentioned that I initiated a debate on this very subject about 18 months Four-year terms, with good powers for elected mayors, ago, when probably one or two fewer hon. Members will provide the opportunity to transform their localities. attended than are here today. Interestingly, Sir Peter Not all elected mayors will succeed. There will be failures Soulsby was there and went on to become an elected and eccentrics, but that is democracy, and we are part of mayor. It will be interesting to see whether any hon. a democracy. In four years, local people will have the Member here today subsequently becomes an elected opportunity to remove that person and to bring in mayor. someone else. People in the local area will decide who provides the leadership. I said during that debate 18 months ago that the idea of elected mayors was flying below the radar, and that is National politics will be transformed, and that is a probably still the case to a certain extent, but I believe real positive. At present, people come to Westminster, that they have the potential profoundly to transform climb the greasy pole, and fall off, which is the end of our democracy. Perhaps things are beginning to change their career. Now, we have the opportunity for national in the sense that referendums will be held in 10 of our politicians, who may have made their name nationally, great cities next week. In addition, three mayoral elections going out and doing something in their localities. Their will take place at the same time: in London, which we national career may be over, but their local career might all know about, Liverpool and Leicester. just be starting. They can be figureheads for the places The UK started its journey back in 2000, when the that they came from, which is tremendous, because they Labour Government introduced the concept of elected would bring experience and contacts to their local areas. mayors; but unfortunately, for whatever reason, it never The reverse is also true. I am amazed at how few took off. I am delighted that the present Government nationally successful politicians have been council leaders. have taken up the baton. There is still cross-party support— Elected mayors who are major politicians in their locality two great advocates are Lord Heseltine and Lord Adonis— may ultimately become MPs. If they subsequently become 305WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 306WH

Ministers, they would bring tremendous executive The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory experience of running an authority, perhaps of only Stewart) mentioned the possible introduction of mayor 250,000 people with a budget of £100 million, but they in his area. Again, if there is support in the local would have direct executive experience, which many community, and if he wishes, I urge him to secure a hon. Members do not have. When Ministers are first petition and get the 5% of signatures necessary to appointed, they sometimes flounder because they do ensure that a referendum takes place. If there is support not have that experience. for the idea, the hon. Gentleman will have the mayor for I want to allow the maximum amount of time for the whom he wishes. Opposition spokesman and the Minister, but I want to I congratulate the hon. Member for Cleethorpes on ask the Minister whether he will continue the commitment his honesty. It seems that he does not really favour a to elected mayors even if the referendum outcomes are margin of democracy but wishes to see mayors being not as we hope? Clearly, I should like all 10 cities to imposed. I do not think, however, that that is how we embrace the idea, but if only three or four do and others should proceed, and for me it is important to ensure do not, is he committed to continuing the process? Will that local people are put in the driving seat, rather than the Minister encourage further referendums for smaller seeking to impose a Westminster template on local cities, as has been done for the big 10? I would love people. Carlisle to have the opportunity to decide in a referendum On 3 May this year, referendums will be held in the whether to have an elected mayor. great cities of our country, although I must say that I resent the way that Ministers have imposed them on Rory Stewart: Is my hon. Friend suggesting that we local communities. As I have said, if there is an appetite could have referendums for mayors in even smaller for an elected mayor and the requisite groundswell of places, such as Penrith? support, a mechanism is already available to the local community to present a petition and hold a referendum. John Stevenson: I accept my hon. Friend’s point, and The Government claim to be localist and it is unfortunate I do not see why not. If Cumbria, for example, had an that they are imposing these referendums on our great elected mayor, smaller areas within Cumbria could easily cities. have the same mechanisms and form of government. My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry At present, the 5% threshold has been a barrier to North East (Mr Ainsworth) talked about apathy. He referendums and to people deciding to raise a petition makes a strong point because apathy is the real enemy in their areas and pursuing the idea of a referendum. I of democracy. Such apathy, however, is not necessarily hope that that threshold can be revisited and, if possible, due to the mechanism through which we organise local reduced to a level where it would be far easier for government but, at least in my view, to the diminution someone who believes in the idea locally to go out and in the powers available to local authorities and to the obtain the requisite number of signatures. I look forward way that, all too often, national politicians and the to the Minister’s response. media have continually run down and denigrated local government. I believe that local governments provide 3.39 pm an invaluable service to local communities and deliver Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): It is a pleasure vital public services. They are a useful mouthpiece for to serve under your chairmanship again, Mrs Main, the concerns of local people through the auspices of and I congratulate the hon. Member for Cleethorpes their locally elected councillors. (Martin Vickers) on securing this timely debate. It is also unhelpful and adds to that sense of apathy We all accept that there are various systems of local when local governments are seen as a delivery arm for government, one of which—the executive mayoral central Government—that applies to both parties, and system—already works perfectly well in a number of we must start to move away from that. My right hon. locations around the country. Hon. Members have spoken Friend mentioned the difficulty that some people find about executive mayors in glowing terms, but they are in identifying their council leader, but to some extent not necessarily a panacea. They can work extremely that is also true about people’s ability to name their well, but so can alternative models of local government. local MP. It is down to the dynamism, commitment and The previous Government recognised that the executive ability of locally elected representatives—whether mayoral local government model has a place and can councillors, council leaders or MPs—to ensure that work well and offer strong leadership, and as a consequence, their local communities know who they are. we legislated for it. As hon. Members have said, a petition needs to be signed by 5% of the population to Lilian Greenwood: Does my hon. Friend think that it meet the threshold to hold a referendum, but that is not matters if people do not know their council leader, as an insurmountable barrier. If there is strong support in long as they know their councillor? Is it not more a local area for the introduction of an elected mayoral valuable to have 55 councillors coming up with collective system, people will put their names to a petition and solutions, with each bringing up the needs and wants of oblige the local authority to hold a referendum. If there their ward, than a single elected person who is supposed is majority support, a mayor will be introduced. However, to come up with all the solutions? even when that 5% threshold has been reached and a referendum has followed, it has not always resulted in Chris Williamson: I certainly think that the role of the introduction of an elected mayor. It is therefore elected councillors is essential to local democracy.Dynamic important to put local people in the driving seat. If and effective local councillors are a useful way for local people want an executive mayor as their form of local people to raise their concerns, and more often than not, government, they should be empowered to introduce they are a great advocate for the communities that they one. represent. As well as asking whether local people want 307WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 308WH

[Chris Williamson] 3.51 pm The Minister of State, Department for Communities an executive mayor, we should be doing all we can to and Local Government (Greg Clark): It is a great pleasure support, train and provide locally elected councillors to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, and to with the necessary tools, to ensure that they can represent respond to what has been an excellent debate with some their communities as effectively as possible. really first-class speeches. I congratulate my irrepressible I do not think that there is evidence of a huge hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) groundswell of support or a great appetite for elected on coming back to this subject. He seems to have mayors, and that is why I object to the Government’s momentum behind him these days. I had not realised imposing mayoral referendums. Obviously, if a majority that he had been rested in his political career, but he is of people support an elected mayor, they will be introduced certainly back with a vengeance, and I know we can in those areas. I suspect, however, that in a number of count on his presence for many years to come. cities around the country, local people will vote to stay It is an opportune moment to be debating this issue with the existing system and reject the Government’s because we have, through the Localism Act, the opportunity proposal. People want decent public services, and I to hold referendums on whether there should be a hope that the Minister will provide some reassurance mayor in what was originally going to be 12 of our about that. They want to see jobs and prosperity in their cities. Already, two of those cities, Leicester and Liverpool, local community, and for their local authority to help have decided not to wait for the referendum to take secure economic development. That requires strong place and have, through a resolution of their local leadership, which, as I have said, can be provided by an councils, decided to go ahead with elections. In the case elected mayor, but also by the existing model of a strong of Leicester, our former colleague, Sir Peter Soulsby, is leader and cabinet. now the mayor, and a vigorous election campaign is We have seen evidence of that system around the currently being fought in Liverpool to elect the first country.In my home city of Derby, strong local government mayor on 3 May. In the 10 remaining cities, the choice is leadership has led to the complete regeneration and there for their people. It is right that the choice rest with transformation of our city.The same is true of Nottingham, the people of those cities, and debates are currently which is represented by my hon. Friend the Member for taking place across the country. Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), where a real There are three broad reasons why it is time for cities lead was taken to develop the transport infrastructure to consider the case for a mayor. We would not have and the regeneration activities of the local authority created these referendums if we did not think there was have transformed the city. The same is true for Leicester, strong case for the people voting yes. It is particularly Manchester and Leeds. The transformational activities true for our great cities that they do not simply compete of a local authority can be achieved without the as part of the United Kingdom with other countries; introduction of an elected mayor. they compete with each other—whether it is Nottingham, The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border touched Birmingham or Leeds. They compete with Barcelona, on the need for us to rebuild democracy, and said that Bordeaux, Lyon, Frankfurt, Bangalore, Beijing and perhaps we should look at devolving more powers to Shanghai. They are international cities that deserve an local government to achieve that. That is a goal that we international champion to speak up for them on the should seek to accomplish. A few weeks ago, the Local international stage. Government Association published “Local Government’s I was struck by a conversation that I had with Joe Magna Carta”, which talked about putting local authority Anderson, the current leader and mayoral candidate for powers on a statutory footing, so that they cannot Liverpool—he is not a member of my party. He said become a political football or the delivery arm of whichever that the penny dropped for him when he was representing Government are in power at the time. That is a way to his city at the World Expo in Shanghai. He was there rebuild democracy to support local authorities. Whether talking to the Chinese authorities, seeking to make the we adopt a system of elected mayors or retain the case for inward investment into Liverpool. The officials existing system, we need to guard against personality said to him, “We can’t understand why all of these cities politics, which is the important point made by the hon. from around the world, Chicago, Frankfurt and so on, Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech). have sent their mayor to Shanghai to represent them In conclusion, let me mention our party political and you have sent an official from the council.” Then he system. Some hon. Members have been a bit embarrassed got into an explanation of the English municipal system, about our democracy. They seem to want to move away but by that stage the argument was lost and he recognised from our party political system, on which our democracy what was needed. is based, towards personality-based politics. That is not Last week, we had a debate in Nottingham, in the a healthy way in which to run our democracy. I am constituency of the hon. Member for Nottingham South proud of our party political system, and if a few more of (Lilian Greenwood). When we were talking about this us stood up for it and recognised that it is the foundation issue, the deputy leader, Mr Chapman, gave us a fascinating of our democracy, perhaps some of the criticism and insight. He said, “Whenever I’m on the continent and I the brickbats that we have seen in the media over the need to explain who I am, all I say is, ‘Je suis le mayor.’” past few years would not be quite so pronounced. That says it all; if someone has to claim to be something Elected mayors have a role to play. They are not a they are not—something that every other city they are panacea; they are one tool in the locker. Let us not put competing against has—surely that makes the case for all our eggs in one basket. Let us allow 1,000 flowers to the prominence internationally that our great cities bloom. If local people want it, give it to them. If they deserve and have had over the years? Bear in mind that do not, support powers for local government in a different the cities we are talking about are already world renowned form. and they need to continue to be so. 309WH Mayoral Referendums25 APRIL 2012 Mayoral Referendums 310WH

It is important also that those cities have a strong (Mr Vaizey) is a Minister. He may do better trying to voice domestically. We all know the importance of our become mayor of Birmingham. I am talking about very great cities. The reputation and standing of our cities is significant powers. not what it has been in past decades and centuries. Not enough people in the country know what is going on in Lilian Greenwood: I thank the Minister for giving Leeds or Sheffield. They do not know the industries way; I am enjoying his speech. If the people of one of that are prospering. They do not know that Bristol is the great cities having a referendum next week, such as one of the most successful cities in the country in Manchester, Nottingham or Leeds, decide that they do attracting investment into digital media. They do not not wish to have an elected mayor, is he suggesting that know about the contribution that the digital gaming the Prime Minister and Ministers will not listen to those industries of Birmingham are making in the international voices and invite them round the table? world. They need to know not just what is going on there, but who the leaders of these cities are. Greg Clark: Of course the Prime Minister will listen to the voice of the cities, but if we are to create a cabinet My observation as a Minister—and I know this from of mayors—a cabinet equivalent to the Cabinet of talking to Ministers from previous Governments—is Ministers—we want people with a mandate who can that the contrast between the volume of the voice of speak for all the people in the city. When the hon. Lady our great cities and that of London is enormous. I dare talked about Nottingham, I was disappointed that she say that more people in Nottingham, Birmingham, talked it down. She said that it was too small to have an Sheffield and Leeds know the name of the Mayor of elected mayor. My goodness, this is a city that has two London than know the name of their city council of the world’s greatest universities, with research and leader. That cannot be right, and it is true nationally. development facilities that are a beacon to the world, I have noted, as have my predecessors from previous two football clubs and Test cricket. Nottingham can Governments, that when the Mayor of London wants punch higher than it does at the moment. something, we know about it. We have to take the phone call. If we do not, we will find out what is needed Lilian Greenwood rose— for London through a megaphone. The right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) made mention Greg Clark: I have two minutes left, so I must make of this as well. Mayors demand more powers. For progress. example, the Mayor of London has made a bold attempt Nottingham could benefit from greater powers. In to extend his transport powers. No one invited him to fact, what the hon. Lady said should be a clarion call to do that. He is perfectly properly standing up for the the people of Nottingham to raise their ambitions and people whom he represents and, I hope, will continue to to live up to what they are capable of. The city could represent, and wants to extend his powers further. I once again be renowned nationally and internationally. want every city to do that. I want it to be a nightmare To do that, it can only help to have someone who speaks for Ministers that we have a legion of mayors from for the whole city, and who has a four-year programme around the country banging the table, demanding more that they have put before the people to bring change to powers and making it impossible to say no. The Prime the city. That will be available to every city after the Minister has agreed to create a cabinet of mayors and to referendums next week. I hope that the people will take allow them to come and sit round the Cabinet table, and the opportunity to say yes. In 100 years’ time, in all of it is right that they should do so. The power of the these cities that say yes, we will look back on a succession existing mayors is enormous. The budget of the city of of mayors to whom people are erecting statues because Birmingham is £3.5 billion a year, which is more than they have done great things for their cities. We will look that of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, back at an historic change that will be for the good of in which my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage the cities and for the whole of the United Kingdom. 311WH 25 APRIL 2012 Local Newspapers 312WH

Local Newspapers BBC, but as all hon. Members in the Chamber know, five minutes is an eternity in broadcast terms: local papers can really go into a story. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I note that we have a full Chamber. The hon. Member for Corby The history of the local press is illustrious. In 1965, (Louise Mensch) has indicated that she will take The Northern Echo successfully campaigned for a interventions, but may I ask that they be kept brief, or I posthumous pardon for Timothy Evans; in 1977, the will ask for them to be curtailed? Lancashire Telegraph successfully exposed the corruption of chief constable Stanley Parr; and in my constituency, the Corby Evening Telegraph led the way on the attempted 4pm suppression of a local report. Louise Mensch (Corby) (Con): Thank you, Mrs Main. It is a delight to see this debate so well attended by hon. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Although I agree Members from all parties. Although this is a particularly that it is always sad when a local newspaper goes from heavy news day, it is nevertheless appropriate that we daily to weekly, as the Exeter Express and Echo in my debate local news, because local papers remain, despite constituency has recently, does the hon. Lady also not grabbing the headlines, the single most popular accept that sometimes the economic reality means that print medium in the UK. They are read by almost 70% if that does not happen, there will be no quality print of the adult population and have a cumulative readership journalism sustained in that community? of some 33 million readers per month. In 2009, Ofcom noted that local newspapers were, far Louise Mensch: I agree that half a loaf is better than and away, the most trusted news organisations in the no bread, but an important part of my speech is to ask country. the Minister to assess, in his reply, whether direct or indirect Government subsidy ought to be given to our Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Local papers are local press. In the Government’s plans for local television essential for local democracy. Members might all like to stations, for example, an indirect subsidy is proposed, think that people with concerns come straight to us, but whereby the BBC will be compelled to take content and they often go to the local paper, which they trust. We pay for content arising from local television stations. often read it and that enables us to do our job. I thank My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the hon. Lady for securing this debate. Communities and Local Government has rightly cracked down on local free sheets that, for so long, have been Louise Mensch: The hon. Lady is right. I intend to cannibalising at tax and rate payers’ expense the markets mention local accountability later. for our local papers. Unfortunately, that might have come partially too late to save some papers. The question for the Government is this: is the local press worth Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I congratulate my having; is the local press worth saving; and can an iPad hon. Friend on securing this important debate and for app ever be a substitute? kindly giving way. In Harlow, we have gone down from three local newspapers to one in the past few years. Unlike the BBC, which has the licence fee, local newspapers Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I thank my do not have a compulsory subsidy. Does my hon. Friend hon. Friend for being so generous in giving way on a agree that it would be fair for the Government to very popular topic. In Great Yarmouth, we have a local continue to put transport and traffic notices in local newspaper, the Great Yarmouth Mercury, but we also newspapers to ensure that they survive? have a daily regional paper, the Eastern Daily Press, that is the biggest selling newspaper—in fact, it outsells all of the national dailies. The EDP is a campaigning Louise Mensch: I agree. Later, I will mention substantively newspaper, so it clicks in with what the people of the remedy for falling circulation and the lack of a good Norfolk and north Suffolk are interested in. That is a business model for local newspapers. good example of how a newspaper can move forward without subsidies. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for securing this debate. Does she agree that Louise Mensch: The Eastern Daily Press is an absolute papers such as the Redditch Standard help our elderly star and gem of a newspaper. However, I am sure that people, who do not have e-mail or access to local news? my hon. Friend would agree that what he mentions is not a substitute for a properly localised paper that can Louise Mensch: Indeed. If hon. Members will forgive address the concerns of local people. In my constituency, me, I will make a tiny bit more progress. On that the glories of Corby and of east Northamptonshire are important point, Johnston Press, which manages a large very different and the concerns of people in east Northants group of notable newspapers throughout the country, and Corby are extremely different. It is wonderful that recently cut a handful of its titles. The Corby Evening we have local papers that cover both areas. Telegraph is one of those titles and is moving from being a daily to a weekly paper. That newspaper group Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): The Guardian—the runs more than 1,000 titles throughout the land. Ballymena Guardian—and the Times—the Ballymoney The threat to our local democracy is severe. Often, Times and Ballymena Times—are some of the most only the local press will hold an incumbent Member of important papers in my constituency. They attract a Parliament or a local council to account, because only readership of more than 80,000 people each week, yet the local press and only local people really care. We all our daily papers—the Belfast Telegraph, The Irish News support our local radio stations, both commercial and and News Letter—attract half that readership. The best 313WH Local Newspapers25 APRIL 2012 Local Newspapers 314WH way for the Government to assist such papers is to make Louise Mensch: I agree completely. If we agree that, sure that all their advertising goes into our weekly in some cases, state subsidy—whether direct or indirect—is papers instead of our daily papers. justified, we need to ask ourselves whether newspapers along with other organs are a worthy recipient of that at Louise Mensch: It would not be for me to propose a local level. I come again to the irreplaceable point that knee-jerk solution to the problems of local papers and local democracy is best served when there is an organ their declining readership. It is a fact that local newspaper that can hold local politicians to account in a thorough readership has been declining and that big newspaper way. At the same time, when we consider our local groups cannot make this work. I only ask the Minister papers and their value to the community, it is not in his reply to announce that the Government will have merely the fact that they hold our feet to the fire in our a review into local democracy and the local press. I ask constituencies; it is how keenly they are at the heart of the Government to look at what they can do—whether rural and urban life in our communities. it is, indeed, the placing of advertisements to support local papers or whether we can look at community Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Local papers clearly models of ownership, such as those successfully trialled have a contact with each of the villages and hamlets in in football supporters’ trusts, for communities that wish my constituency. My local paper, The Newtownards to take over and run their local papers. Chronicle, contains local stories for people who live in the area. Does the hon. Lady feel that it is important The best brains in the Department for Culture, Media not just to have local stories, but advertising? That is the and Sport ought to turn their talents to addressing this success of a local paper—its interaction with the community. problem because, otherwise, the greatest winners will be incumbent politicians. We campaign in our local papers Louise Mensch: Yes, I do indeed. When part of that and those of us who took seats at the general election advertising comes from Government and the local council, remember how important it was whenever we managed it is important to create a level playing field over various to get a story into the local paper and whenever our forms of media. The BBC is a national treasure, but opponents did. I will be generous enough to mention when it goes to hyper-localism in its websites and reporting, the name of my opponent, Andy Sawford, who was it creates a very difficult behemoth for local commercial Labour’s parliamentary candidate for Corby and east papers to compete against. Council free sheets have Northamptonshire. It is only right that he should be been the single biggest cannibal of the markets of local able to publicise his campaigns in the same way that I papers. Research sent to me by Retail Newsagent Magazine publicised my campaigns against my predecessor, Phil states that more than £5 million will be wiped off local Hope, when I took the seat from him. That is a vital newsagents in the future. It is not merely the 10,000 part of our local democracy. We do not wish to entrench journalists that local newspapers employ, but the subsidiary incumbency. trade that they bring to their areas and to newsagents Of course, as a Conservative, I am naturally suspicious that rely on passing trade and footfall, as people come of subsidies. However, let us consider the narrow interests in to buy their local paper every day. that are subsidised by the Government, the broad range of funds to which national lottery funding is supplied Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op): I congratulate and the indirect subsidy in the case of the licence fee, the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. Does such as that proposed to support local television stations. she agree that the local economy of towns such as We need to ask ourselves whether we wish to support a Halifax will suffer another blow when they are already level playing field for local press. If the BBC is supported suffering from job losses in the banking sector and the by taxpayer-funded subsidies, council free sheets are public sector? supported and local television stations are indirectly supported by a compulsion for the BBC to buy their Louise Mensch: I do indeed. Now is not the time to content, why should local newspapers posses none of wipe out our local press. those advantages when they offer an irreplaceable function? Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): My hon. Friend Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Does my is being most generous. As everyone knows, she is hon. Friend agree that, in marginal seats such as mine, prolific and effective in her use of new media. It is The Argus and the Sussex Express serve the very purpose wonderful to see that she also supports traditional that she outlines in making sure that incumbency in not media, too; papers such as South Hams Gazette in my too strong a factor? Such papers hold MPs to account constituency, which does a fantastic job. I agree with and ensure that they do a good job. her completely that this is not about subsidy. Supporting advertising through our local press is the best way to support democracy. Louise Mensch: I do, indeed. Louise Mensch: Yes, indeed. There are direct and Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I am very proud indirect forms of subsidy. The Government should be to have in my constituency the oldest continuously considering that, rather than writing out a cheque to running newspaper in the world, Berrow’s Worcester local newspaper groups, which is not at all what I Journal. The editor of that newspaper has urged me to propose. make the point that it is not only a question of the value for money the Government get out of their advertisements Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I am not deviating in the press; it is also a question of trust. As my hon. from what the hon. Lady and other hon. Members have Friend pointed out, people have greater trust in what been saying about the need for advertisements —my they read from newspapers. local paper, the Cambrian News, will be very glad to 315WH Local Newspapers25 APRIL 2012 Local Newspapers 316WH

[Mr Mark Williams] heart of our national life and our national communities, and they deserve preservation as much as an arts or hear about that—but will she not leave the issue of theatre group or anything else that the Government are subsidies completely? We have a system of Papurau Bro prepared to subsidise directly or indirectly. I ask the local Welsh language newspapers that have been in Minister to give every hon. Friend and hon. Member in receipt of funds from our National Assembly Government, the Chamber some hope that the Government will look so there is a precedent in Wales. again at the plight of the local press, at the creation of a fair level playing field and at the indirect subsidies Louise Mensch: Yes, indeed, but that is slightly different proposed for local television stations, which will be a because the preservation of the Welsh language and further competitor for local newspapers, with the BBC culture is an overriding national concern. Just as we required to buy their content. In particular, can the subsidise Welsh television channels, it is quite right and Minister press colleagues in other Departments to continue proper that Welsh language outlets should be subsidised—it advertising in local newspapers? is a slightly different matter. I repeat that the issue of At the same time—not that one usually ever has to indirect subsidy is already there for a number newspapers, press the great and wonderful Secretary of State for outlets and organs that compete with our local press. I Communities and Local Government to any kind of am concerned that the Government should provide a action—when he is stamping down on council free level playing field. I will give way to my hon. Friends, sheets, I hope that he will look again and do it with ever and then, I am afraid, I must conclude my speech. more vigour, because it is completely unfair and wrong for ratepayers to be asked to subsidise something that Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I thank the hon. puts their local paper out of business. All we ask for is a Lady for giving way, and bringing to us the parliamentary little fairness to preserve something that is so important equivalent of speed dating. She will know that I am in our national life. I look forward to the Minister’s lucky enough to have that august newspaper, the Burton reply. Mail, in my constituency. It is not only a centre of information, but a great champion for my local community. It has raised with me the concerns that my hon. Friend 4.17 pm the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) raised about the impact of the Department for Transport withdrawing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, its advertising in newspapers. That will force newspapers Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It to close. Should it not change its mind? is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Louise Mensch: It should indeed change its mind. for Corby (Louise Mensch) on securing this important There is absolutely no justification for Government debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew withdrawing advertising support when they provide Griffiths) compared it to speed dating but, as I heard subsidy for various other types of media. the various interventions, it seemed more like the parliamentary equivalent of “Just a Minute”. The great Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Does my deal of interest in the debate on the part of colleagues hon. Friend agree that a free press is the hallmark of a might not be unrelated to the fact that, last time I free society? Councils may be looking to save money, debated local newspapers, I managed to secure half a but starving newspapers of that will be worse for democracy page on page 7 of my excellent local weekly, The Didcot rather than better. Herald.

Louise Mensch: I agree with my hon. Friend. We have Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): There is often good coverage to look at the press as a special case. Local newspapers, in my local newspaper, the Wigan Evening Post, but it is as I said at the beginning of my speech, perform an not always comfortable, as should be the case. As the absolutely irreplaceable function in our democracy.Nobody Minister knows, Johnston Press, which recently announced else will be interested in the malfeasance of our local huge losses, employs people in Wigan and elsewhere. councils. Few people will be interested in the expenses Can he tell us whether he can get some assurances from scandals or otherwise of those of us who are on the the management of Johnston Press for staff who are Back Benches and not of ministerial rank—I almost obviously concerned about their future? said “fodder” but, fortunately, I stopped myself. I have every sympathy with my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Vaizey: I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution, Brighton, Kemptown (Simon Kirby), because I took a and I should also mention the excellent contributions marginal seat from Labour at the previous election and, of my hon. Friends the Members for Harlow (Robert in those marginal areas, it is absolutely vital that both Halfon), for Redditch (Karen Lumley), for Great Yarmouth the candidate and the challenger can put their case in (Brandon Lewis), for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon Kirby), the local media. for Worcester (Mr Walker), for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), We have not had much time in the debate, because for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), for Suffolk Coastal many hon. Friends and hon. Members wanted to intervene (Dr Coffey) and for Burton; of the right hon. Member and to praise their local papers, which are at the heart of for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw); and of the hon. Members their communities. We all grew up with the softer, nicer for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), for North Antrim (Ian stories and the pictures of schoolchildren celebrating Paisley), for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Halifax St George’s day, of country fêtes or of town centres (Mrs Riordan). As Minister for fashion, I normally go cleaning up after riots. All those sweet little stories out of my way to praise the sartorial elegance of my might not grab national headlines, but they are hon. Friend the Member for Corby, so I hope she does nevertheless—I say this with complete sincerity—at the not think me ungallant if I make the point that today 317WH Local Newspapers25 APRIL 2012 Local Newspapers 318WH she is eclipsed by my hon. Friend the Member for nevertheless it has tried to do that in the back office. I Harlow who, in the parlance of fashion, is wearing a regret anyone’s losing their job, but that paper has powder-blue corduroy suit with a rainbow accessory tie. focused on maintaining the quality of its journalism. The issues are important and, as the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) indicated, local newspapers are Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): under significant pressure. I was in touch with Simon On the point made well by my hon. Friend the Member O’Neill, the editor of The Oxford Times in my constituency, for Corby (Louise Mensch) about the uneven playing and he pointed out that between 2006 and 2011 the field in terms of council so-called free sheets, might it turnover of Oxfordshire publishing businesses halved, help the market to require councils to charge for each they closed their district offices and editorial numbers free sheet and thereby see how many they sell? That declined by 40%. He is also a man whose glass is half would bring competition back into the local market. full, however, and he made the point that his own newspapers between them employ more journalists than Mr Vaizey: As my hon. Friend is aware, my right hon. all the other media outlets in Oxfordshire combined. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government made it one of his priorities when Several hon. Members rose— we came into office to consider council free sheets. We introduced a code of recommended practice a year ago, Mr Vaizey: I make it clear that I will happily accept as at the end of March 2011. Local authorities have to many interventions as hon. Members wish to make. take account of that statutory guidance, restricting the number of newsletters that local authorities can issue Robert Halfon: I thank the Minister for his kind quarterly. For example, I know anecdotally that comments about my suit. The Harlow Star is delivered Hammersmith and Fulham now produces its own free to almost every home throughout Harlow free of charge, sheet as part of the local newspaper, the Fulham and and it and many other local newspapers depend on Hammersmith Chronicle. So in effect, rather than being traffic notices. Many old people—we have 11,500 pensioners a competitor of the local newspaper, the council has —do not use the internet and depend on traffic notices ended up subsidising it, if one wants to use that word. from their local newspaper. Will he lobby the Department for Transport to ensure that traffic notices are kept in Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Does the Minister local newspapers? agree that a fully independent, strong local paper such as the Congleton Chronicle, the strength of which is in Mr Vaizey: I hear what my hon. Friend says. Obviously, its independence, makes a unique contribution to I was going to cover the consultation on traffic regulation strengthening community life—in many ways acting as orders conducted by the Department for Transport. its glue—for just a few pence a week? Will he join me in The consultation opened in January and this is the congratulating the paper, which is bucking the trend we second time we have debated it in the House, which is a have heard about today by having not only three long- reflection of the importance that hon. Members attach running titles—the Congleton, Sandbach and Biddulph to this subject. When we debated the matter previously, Chronicles—but this year launching a new title, the I urged all hon. Members to make their own submissions Alsager Chronicle, which is proof that a well-resourced on behalf of their local newspapers. and supported independent local paper can flourish in The consultation closed last Monday. I understand the internet age? that last week, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), Mr Vaizey: I happily join my hon. Friend in met representatives of newspaper groups. The Department congratulating that newspaper on its success. Well-run for Transport is taking this seriously. I would not like to local newspapers producing content that local people pre-empt the conclusions of that consultation. I made want to read will be successful. the frank points in the previous debate that there is a balance to be struck between saving the taxpayer money, I was interviewed recently by GQ Magazine, which effectively, by not having a statutory requirement and my hon. Friend the Member for Corby is familiar by deregulating, and recognising that local newspapers with, about how to get elected to Parliament. I made the in particular depend on statutory notices for part of point, which I think hon. Members would agree with, their revenue. that a page in a local newspaper is worth much more, still, than a Facebook campaign. That is worth remembering. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): This Government have pioneered transparency in local government finances with a requirement to publish such information. Anyone Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): Will the who has waded through it will see reams of pages. If the Minister join me in congratulating my Herald Express, local press are not around to do that, few others will. which won the national award for creative bravery when Does the Minister agree that this is a real threat to local it converted from being a daily to a weekly? If he wants democracy and transparency, as wonderfully exemplified some advice and guidance about how to do it yourself by the Enfield Independent and the Enfield Advertiser? and get it right, that is a good example: that paper did it, and kept the sales and circulation. Mr Vaizey: As I said earlier, we should recognise that local newspapers take their responsibilities in this area Mr Vaizey: I join my hon. Friend in recognising the seriously. The editor of The Oxford Times, Simon O’Neill, achievement of her local newspaper in receiving that made the point that, although it has had radically to award and in moving from a daily to a weekly. That reduce its headcount because of commercial pressures, echoes the point made by the right hon. Member for 319WH Local Newspapers25 APRIL 2012 Local Newspapers 320WH

[Mr Vaizey] Jim Shannon: So far, no Member has mentioned the opportunities that come through local papers for those Exeter—that, although painful to say it, it is better that starting on the first rung of journalism. They go from a newspaper survive and prosper, albeit in a different local and provincial papers to national papers, and on format, than close entirely. to TV and radio. Many people in Northern Ireland depend on that. Does the Minister feel that that cannot Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): All three of my local be replaced? papers, the Blackpool Gazette, Lytham St Anne’s Express and the Lancashire Evening Post are Johnston Press Mr Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman makes his point. papers. I urge the Minister to seek a meeting with senior Time and again we hear about the much wider impact management at Johnston Press to see in what practical of local newspapers, not just in delivering news to their ways we can help. local communities but the tangential impact on skills and training. That is why, for example, to return to my Mr Vaizey: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, own patch in Oxfordshire, I am heartened that there is a which reminds me that I was remiss in not addressing drive by the editor-in-chief, Simon O’Neill, to continue the point put to me by the hon. Member for Wigan. I to invest in journalism because of the recognition that have called the managing director of Johnston Press quality journalism sits at the heart not just of the and hope to have a meeting with him, simply to engage success of local newspapers, but of media generally. with him and hear his strategy. As a matter of principle, it is not the job of Government to tell a commercial business how it should be run or what its requirements Simon Kirby: Does the Minister agree that local are. newspapers often create a fertile environment for other print publications, such as Love Brighton, What’s Happening Ashley Highfield, the new managing director of Johnston and The Latest magazines in Brighton and Hove? Press—I knew him at the BBC when he was putting together the iPlayer, and he was then at Microsoft—has been hired because of an explicit recognition that we Mr Vaizey: Yes. are moving into a digital age. Members will say that not I shall wind up the debate, but I will not prevent any everyone has an iPad yet, and it is still important to further interventions— maintain the traditional format of a local newspaper, on which so many of our constituents still depend to get Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): I have to inform the their local news. Chamber that, unfortunately, the long-established Woking News and Mail closed a few months ago, but a new Louise Mensch: Not only does not everyone have an Woking News and Mail, which started as a monthly iPad at this stage, but residents in my constituency of publication, is now fortnightly and supplements the Corby were unbelievably insulted to be told that the excellent coverage of the Surrey Advertiser. Surely, if Corby Evening Telegraph would be replaced by an iPad the demand is there people will buy the local press. app, which excludes both people on low incomes and elderly people who are not familiar with the internet. I firmly agree with the Minister that a Facebook campaign Mr Vaizey: I agree. is no substitute. He is, like me, a great lover of social We have relaxed the media ownership rules to allow media. Does he not recognise, as I do, that we will lose local newspaper groups to merge; we have conducted a much photojournalism and in-depth coverage if we consultation on traffic regulation orders, which has just switch from true local stories to a couple of tweets? concluded; we have restricted the use of council free sheets; we have introduced local television, which I Mr Vaizey: Yes. I should say that I often get myself think will supplement and support local newspapers; into trouble making offers to Members; but, as and and we continue to support community radio. Above when I am able to set up a meeting with the managing all, the message goes out from the House and from this director of Johnston Press, I will issue an open invitation lively, well-informed debate about the passionate support to that meeting to all Members who may or may not in this House and among our local communities for our have had the opportunity to meet him, so that they can local newspapers. I will happily organise a series of put their points to him. It would be useful for him to meetings with the managing directors of newspaper hear from the grassroots. We Members of Parliament groups, be it Johnston Press, Newsquest or Northcliffe, can forget that we are the grassroots of our communities. if Members would find that helpful. 321WH 25 APRIL 2012 Outsourcing (Government 322WH Departments) Outsourcing (Government Departments) has been a desire to bring perceived good practice from the private sector into the public sector or, indeed, the 4.30 pm belief that savings can be made through outsourcing, the question that we parliamentarians must ask the Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I am grateful, Government and that I wish to put to the Minister is Mrs Main, for this opportunity, and it is a privilege to this: where is the evidence for those reforms? serve under your chairmanship for what I believe is the first time. Today, I hope to raise a very important issue, I hope that the Minister will address this issue, which put down a few markers and seek some answers from is about the economic and social evidence base rather the Minister to a series of questions that I will pose. I than an ideological base that is behind what seems to be want to place on record my thanks to the Public and a rush to sell off services and public assets. It is my Commercial Services Union, the TUC and Unison for contention that the Tory-led policy on public services various pieces of briefing information that they have reform that is being followed by the coalition is ideologically provided in support of my efforts today. driven and light on any such evidence base. I want to develop that point by presenting some evidence to suggest When the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster that the Government are on the wrong side of public General was Financial Secretary to the Treasury under opinion and, indeed, wrong about the whole issue of John Major, he sought to public service reform. “extend competition in the provision of public services further and faster than ever before”.—[Official Report, 18 November 1991; I hope that the Minister is aware of a report by Ipsos Vol. 199, c. 25.] MORI entitled, “What do people want, need and expect He said that he would do so with no bias between public from public services?” The report presents the most and private sector providers. It must surely have been a up-to-date and detailed data on current public attitudes setback for him personally that, shortly after setting out to public services and public service reform. I want to that agenda, his then constituents in the North put three headline findings on the record. First, people Warwickshire constituency decided to ditch him at the “want public services to be based on notions of the public good, 1992 general election in favour of Labour representation. rather than just what’s good for me”. However, in 1997, he returned to Parliament in the far Secondly, people safer Conservative seat of Horsham and he waited “understand the public good largely in terms of universalism, patiently for 13 years in opposition before returning in with equality of access to benefits”. 2010 to his privatisation agenda of 20 years earlier to Thirdly, people make private everything that is public. “struggle to see a compelling or urgent case for reforming public I give this preamble only to set out the context of the services to cope with economic pressures and social changes”. debate: we can all understand that an individual who Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Does my hon. has waited 20 years to achieve his ambition may be Friend agree that there are different interpretations of more keen to implement his policies and to do so public sector reform? For example, Labour set up academies somewhat quicker than otherwise would be the case. in areas of high deprivation, but the Tory-led Government Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman has made his intentions turned that on its head. Their interpretation is anti the clear. In June 2011, he spoke to the business community public good. on the subject of public service reform, saying: “Spending cuts are one-offs. What we need to do, and are Grahame M. Morris: I agree that there are various doing, is fundamentally change the way we operate.” interpretations of what constitutes public sector reform, However, the problem with the coalition Government’s and I will speak about academies in a few moments. I approach is that it is not evidence-based; it is ideologically am grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention. driven. Whether they are outsourcing services, opening On all three points illustrated in that detailed survey, them up to a range of providers or decentralising them, the Government are out of step with the public on the Government are gambling with the nation’s hard-won public service reform. Ordinary people want public assets. services in public hands for the public good, but the Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): We seem to be hearing Government seem to want public services outsourced to a political diatribe against outsourcing. What would the business for the good of private profit. Ordinary people hon. Gentleman say the previous Government were up want universalism, but the Government want to decentralise, to when they successfully outsourced many services? to remove targets and to create local variations and Indeed, many Labour councils, as well as Conservative postcode lotteries, so going against standardised and and Liberal Democrat councils, followed in the footsteps universal access. Ordinary people oppose rapid upheaval of those pioneering Conservative councils of the early and fundamental reform to public services, and a case 1980s, by outsourcing services to give people a better in point is the opposition to the NHS reforms. service at lower cost. The Government have run amok with the reorganisation of the health service and forged ahead with public Grahame M. Morris: The basis of my argument service reform and outsourcing at breakneck speed. It is essentially is that there is no evidence base for that no surprise that when Ministers make speeches on approach. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to public service reform, they do so to business leaders, develop my argument a little further, I hope to illustrate never to public sector workers, service users or trade that point. union groups who work in the public sector. I want to If we look at the evidence base, it is in fact a constant place on the record my support, sympathy and admiration lesson from history that reform has often come, as the for the front-line workers who are so often treated like hon. Gentleman has indicated, in the form of privatisations pawns in a game of chess, facing constant change, and outsourcing, but it has not always led to service reorganisation and regrading, often at the whim of improvement. Whether the justification for such reform political elites. 323WH Outsourcing (Government 25 APRIL 2012 Outsourcing (Government 324WH Departments) Departments) [Grahame M. Morris] A little earlier, different models of provision were mentioned. The coalition Government are promoting Workers across the public sector know that the latest different models for outsourcing different services within policy move to the mass outsourcing of services and a different Departments—for example, academies and free-for-all for business will be a last hurrah, because education, the utilities model and the NHS, or payment many of the changes will be irreversible. For people by result for welfare and benefits. However, although who work in the public service, it means an end to job those are different models, the driver is the same. Emergency security and to nationally determined pay, conditions 999 call centres have been privatised and outsourced and terms of service. Instead, national public services together with the administration of the benefit system. will become ever more fragmented, unstable and variable, The roads on which we drive are the latest to go, as the offering short-term and risky employment not by the pace of outsourcing to the private sector speeds up. state, but by any fly-by-night private sector operator. John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Another Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): The hon. example is the translation service. Since it was moved Gentleman is making a passionate case, but it is framed into the private sector, a plethora of problems have as public versus private. The reality is that we are included translators failing to turn up at court and looking at any number of models to deliver our public criminals walking away without being tried because no services. We have social enterprises and co-operatives. translator was present. Surely, we should look at the outcome and not the structure of delivery. Grahame M. Morris: There are many examples where the proposals for privatisation, outsourcing or whatever Grahame M. Morris: I thank the hon. Lady for her models are being piloted have not produced positive intervention, but there is a danger of fragmentation, results. I do not have the opportunity to list them all even with some of the models that she mentions—for owing to a shortage of time, but I am grateful to my example, in the national health service and social care. hon. Friend for that example. If we are trying to promote integrated services, a plethora The Welfare Bill passed through Parliament in March of private sector and even voluntary sector providers and lays the foundations for billion-pound contracts of works against that ethos. That is a risk. five years or more for private companies to run welfare- My argument is that public sector workers and service to-work programmes and the administration of the new users know the difference between private profiteering benefits system. I believe that the rush to outsource the and public services. Let us not forget that the key biggest spending Department—the Department for Work difference is that the first duty of a business is to its and Pensions—rather than develop a coherent strategy shareholders and the pursuit of profit. to create jobs and growth in the economy, is a dereliction of duty by the Government. The coalition Government are trying to do two things in developing their own brand of public service reform, which is quite distinct from what the Labour party did Jackie Doyle-Price: The hon. Gentleman draws attention when in office. First, they are trying to tie down companies to a good example of a contract that is working. In that with more stringent contracts in the belief that setting contract, the burden of risk is pushed on to the private targets will guarantee performance—ironically, the provider. If it does not deliver jobs, it does not get Government argued against targets in the national health money. Surely, that is a good thing. service and wanted them to be ditched by public sector providers. Secondly, they believe that with stricter conditions Grahame M. Morris: I am afraid that I do not agree for private sector providers, there should be no limits on with the hon. Lady. The issue was raised during questions where those providers should be allowed to tread within to the DWP on Monday—by myself, I think—and the the public sector. papers this weekend illustrated a number of examples of service failure. Service users feel huge dissatisfaction Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): My hon. Friend is with Atos and A4e, and there has been a huge uproar developing a pertinent point. If we outsource public about the quality of service provision in training or services—a public commodity—to the private sector, in retraining ex-offenders. some way, shape or form the private sector has to make The evidence base is littered with failures from the a profit to give to its shareholders. That seems to be the private sector, so it is difficult to hold up an example. If logic from the Government’s perspective, but it will be there is a good example, I suspect that it might be the impossible for public services to become more efficient exception rather than the rule. Most often, there is a or reinvest savings back into the development of the negative impact for employees, with the prevalence of service. short-term contracts and the use of part-time and temporary staff who are often recruited through Grahame M. Morris: That is an excellent point, and employment agencies. Indeed, Unison commissioned a we should be guided by the evidence. If the Minister can report on the rise of the multi-billion-pound private demonstrate that that is not the case, I will be interested public services industry and raised significant concerns to hear his response. Certainly, in relation to the national about the increased dependency on private firms. health service, the detailed impact assessment published The privatisation of public services has already become with the Health and Social Care Bill proved that in-house a huge industry, through which the private sector receives services were considerably cheaper that those offered by more than £80 billion of taxpayers’ money every year, the private sector, as well as being more responsive, yet it has become characterised by increased cost, accountable and fitting in with the wish for better deteriorating quality, the loss of accountability and the integration. greater risk of service failure. The reason why we had 325WH Outsourcing (Government 25 APRIL 2012 Outsourcing (Government 326WH Departments) Departments) the birth of municipal provision in the great northern different agencies, with different forms of accountability, cities—Manchester, Bradford, Leeds and Wigan—was how will the needs and interests of service users with that the city fathers saw that public provision was more complex and multiple needs be protected? I am thinking efficient and accountable than the existing private sector about the social care sector, where needs dealt with by provision that was available at the time. Those arguments different providers often require integrated services. are not new in that respect. Will the new accountability measures apply to private I want to give another couple of examples. I mentioned and voluntary sector providers? As we know, they remain A4e, and it would be remiss not to mention the Southern outside of the scope of the Freedom of Information Cross care homes debacle. Other scandals in relation to Act. What direct accountability will there be to elected welfare have also raised such issues and brought this representatives and democratic institutions, nationally agenda to the fore. That will happen more often as more and in respect of local government, when such public services are passed over to the private sector. There is services are outsourced? also a risk that we will lose control over our public services altogether. Indeed, in 2007, the Local Government Association warned that the amount of local authority 4.50 pm spending on external private sector contracts and the The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick ability of local government to make efficiency savings Hurd): It is a great pleasure to serve under your when it has already signed contracts without further chairmanship for the first time, Mrs Main. I congratulate damaging services was not realistic. the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) The Government’s central argument in favour of the on securing the debate and on how he presented his increased commercialisation and privatisation of public case. I believe that he worked in the NHS before going services rests on the importance of consumer choice as into politics. I read his profile, which says that his a driver for increased efficiency, accountability and political mission is to push Labour leftwards, so he value for money. However, again, that is not supported must be delighted with the direction of travel. It is clear by the evidence contained in the public surveys that where he is coming from and I have a certain respect for have been carried out. One area that features genuine that, even though I come from a different place politically. consumer choice is the provision of utilities. In most Our constituencies may be different, but I suspect parts of the United Kingdom, people can choose a that all our constituents share a desire to see Government provider of gas or electricity from a handful of companies. deliver better value for the tax that they pay. This However, is that a good example? There is massive Government take that seriously. public concern that prices have increased way above inflation and that the profits of the energy companies Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Will the Minister give have soared. So the panacea of private-led competition way? is not everything that the coalition would have us believe it is. Mr Hurd: Perhaps I can just advance my argument a little. Jonathan Lord: The hon. Gentleman is making a This is not the place to have a great debate about the delightful speech in favour of socialism, the big state economic situation or the level of debt that the Government and the state always providing, whether nationally or have inherited, but we are serious about trying to deliver locally. He talks about the utilities and so on. British better value for taxpayers’ money. I am a Minister in the Telecom is not perfect, but I remember as a young man Cabinet Office. The controls that we have put in place—that when one had to wait weeks and weeks, if not months, my boss, the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster to have a phone installed, and I think there was a choice General has put in place—delivered some £3.75 billion of about three phones. As soon as BT was privatised, it in the first year of Government and are on track to saved taxpayers’ money and gave a much better service deliver £5 billion of savings this year. We are quite to its customers. proud of that. Frankly, it was an exercise in delivering Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I remind the hon. common sense. It is an appalling indictment of the Gentleman that I am sure that he would like to give the attitude of the previous Administration to public money Minister enough time to respond to the questions that that such big savings could be found in such short order he has asked. by doing some basic commonsensical things. Grahame M. Morris: I would, indeed—thank you, Ian Lavery: Does the Minister agree, in respect of Mrs Main. looking for better value, that paying doctors, nurses and There is an awful lot to explore in relation to the porters in his constituency more than those in my subject, but I want to pose a number of questions to the constituency is a good way of saving money? Minister. I want to ask about the evidence. Given that the survey evidence shows that the public seem to reject Mr Hurd: I want doctors and nurses to be paid at fair the individualist consumer approach to public service, value. I am also interested in the value that they offer to why are the Government pursuing that? Can he point to the taxpayer for the work that they do, which brings me specific pilots or evidence of its success? What protections on to my next point about public services and how they are in place to stop the spiralling costs of redundancies are commissioned. during this transition period, for example, in the national The Government’s view is that, when expectations health service? about public service standards are rising, we need to In respect of the decentralisation agenda, what specific find more creative solutions. There is dissatisfaction standards are being developed to ensure accountability, and a challenge, because there is less money about and equality of access and provision nationally? With this therefore greater pressure to get better outcomes with new landscape of competing service providers from less money. 327WH Outsourcing (Government 25 APRIL 2012 Outsourcing (Government 328WH Departments) Departments) [Mr Hurd] are agnostic about who delivers the service. We are particularly keen—and it is a coalition Government My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie commitment—to make it easier for charities and social Doyle-Price) made an important point: the direction of enterprises to participate in public services. They are travel here is not driven by ideology, although there is not driven by a profit motive. By definition, they are more ideology communicated from the Opposition than driven by a desire to deliver a better outcome for the the Government. This is driven by a desire to deliver people that they support and care about. better outcomes on behalf of the taxpayer and the people we are trying to help in a way that is much more Jackie Doyle-Price: The hon. Member for Easington transparent than before. (Grahame M. Morris) referred to academies in his speech. Perhaps I should remind my hon. Friend about Ian Mearns: The Minister belabours the point about the Public Accounts Committee’s inquiry into academies, making additional efficiencies within government since which showed that they delivered not only better outcomes the coalition came to power. Of course, one of the for the taxpayer but better value for money. Is that not a biggest elements of public expenditure is local government. perfect example of how changing provision and getting Conservative control in local government has been at a away from uniform provision delivers better outcomes? high watermark for eight or nine years now. Would he criticise Conservative councils in that respect? Mr Hurd: Yes, I absolutely agree. I also agree with Mr Hurd: I resist any invitation to criticise Conservative what my hon. Friend said when the hon. Member for councils, particularly at this moment. My point is about Easington kept saying, “Where’s the evidence?” There is attitudes to taxpayers’ money.The previous Administration plenty of evidence for the value of competition—if we were cavalier with taxpayers’money and this Administration need it, because we know it in our daily lives. Academic are trying to deliver better research suggests that competitively tendering public services typically produces savings of between 10% and Gloria De Piero: The Minister might not want to 30% while maintaining or improving standards. I refer speak about Conservative councils, but I live in the hon. Member for Easington to the “Public Services Nottinghamshire where the Conservative council has Industry Review” of July 2008 by Dr DeAnne Julius, just used taxpayers’ money to develop a new logo on all but there is no shortage of evidence for the value of the buildings. Is that good value for taxpayers? tendering and introducing competition into the system. Mr Hurd: I do not know because I do not know the Dr Julius also talked about the payment-by-results situation in Nottingham. That is an issue on which the regime, which the Opposition do not like at all, although people of Nottingham can take a view and they will be the situation we inherited was that those buying on our able to express that view more clearly and more loudly behalf were extraordinarily complacent about whether because we are moving towards a world in which there we got anything for the money. Such a regime is not is more transparency about local authorities’ spending. appropriate in every case, but we are moving towards a We are moving away from the opaque world in which requirement for commissioners—those buying on our we had very little information about what was being behalf—to think much harder about what they are done in our name. buying and the outcomes against which they will be Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I share the Minister’s measured in a new transparent world where there will concern about value for money, although I am also be nowhere to hide. Yes, we will introduce payment by concerned about protecting the most vulnerable and results where that is appropriate, because it introduces about the standard of public services and the intelligence some basic, common-sense discipline into how we spend of targets that are used in outsourcing. Will he respond taxpayers’ money. For most of my constituents, that to the point that was powerfully put by my hon. Friend makes plain common sense—after all, it is their money. about the evidence base behind this? Where is the Finally, we are also keen to encourage the development evidence that outsourcing provides better value for money? of mutuals, employee ownership and organisations in which employees are in charge. One such model in Mr Hurd: I am delighted to move on to the substance which ownership is shared between employees, Government of the debate. I have tried my best to respond to various and private sector partners is the innovative pathfinder interventions from the Opposition Benches. The hon. mutual joint venture, My Civil Service Pension, which Member for Easington referred to the open public provides pension administration for civil servants. Likewise, services. [Interruption.] With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I go around the country and meet some of the mutual I am trying to answer the meat of his argument, which spin-outs from the NHS, where the hon. Gentleman is whether it is good to create a situation in which those used to work, and the difference when one walks through buying on behalf of the taxpayer have choice about the door into those organisations is tangible. where they buy services on our behalf. The hon. Gentleman is actually arguing for no choice and for protection of Our programme of reform is focused on the citizen the status quo. The Government’s open public services and is already cutting out unnecessary cost to help White Paper makes it clear—we expect a political argument protect front-line priorities. Outsourcing remains an about this—that we want to switch the default setting interesting option and one that will offer the best deal in away from in-house delivery to commissioning services many situations, but it is not the only one, and we are from a diverse range of providers where that would judging every case on its merits. improve services or reduce costs. The hon. Gentleman made it clear that he was hostile 5pm to the for-profits sector. My hon. Friend the Member Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order for Thurrock made a valuable point that the Government No. 10(11)). 37WS Written Ministerial Statements25 APRIL 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS Written Ministerial DEFENCE

Non-Competitive Government Contracts Statements (Profit Formula)

Wednesday 25 April 2012 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Peter Luff): I announced to the House on 26 January 2011, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Official Report, columns 10-11WS, that I had asked Lord Currie of Marylebone to undertake a review of the Government’s single source pricing regulations, which Audit Commission Pension Scheme include the Government Profit Formula (GPF) overseen by the Review Board for Government Contracts. Lord Currie published his recommendations in October 2011 TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities and they are currently the subject of consultation with and Local Government (Robert Neill): I want to inform industry and across Government. Pending the outcome the House of my Department’s intention to provide a of those discussions, the review board has been asked to guarantee to the Audit Commission pension scheme, maintain the existing arrangements. ahead of the Commission’s abolition. This statement sits alongside a financial minute I have laid before the The review board recently completed their 2012 annual House setting out the contingent liability associated review of the Government Profit Formula and has with the provision of a guarantee. recommended revised allowances. The Government have accepted the board’s recommendations and the updated The resolution of future arrangements for the Audit allowances have been agreed with industry. Commission pension scheme is an important step in disbanding the Audit Commission. My Department is The recommendations will be implemented for new pressing ahead with plans for the abolition of the single source work in accordance with the arrangements Commission and the replacement of the current audit agreed with industry and published in an addendum system with a new decentralised regime that will support to the review board’s report, a copy of which will be local democratic accountability and cut bureaucracy placed in the Library of the House. and costs. We will introduce the necessary legislation to close the Commission and implement the new audit framework as soon as parliamentary time allows, and intend to publish a draft Bill for legislative scrutiny later ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS this year. As announced in March, the successful outsourcing Agriculture and Fisheries Council of the Commission’s in-house audit practice has already secured significant long-term reductions in audit fees for local public bodies. Working estimates from the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural draft impact assessment of local audit reforms show Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): The next Agriculture that these savings, together with the end of inspection and Fisheries Council is on Thursday 26 and Friday work and the disbanding of the Commission, will save 27 April in Luxembourg. The Minister of State, Department around £650 million over the next five years, compared for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right to costs before reforms were announced. I intend to hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire publish the impact assessment, which will include the (Mr Paice) responsible for agriculture and food will detailed workings behind these figures, later this year. represent the UK on 26 April covering the agriculture As set out in the financial minute, the Audit Commission items. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for pension scheme is a well-funded scheme that will cease Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member to have any active members and close to new entrants for Newbury (Richard Benyon) will represent the UK when the Commission closes. I am providing a guarantee on 27 April covering fisheries business. Richard Lochead now to avoid the early crystallisation of pension liabilities, MSP and Alun Davies AM will also attend. and ensure that the accrued rights of past and present On 26 April the Council will be debating common Audit Commission staff are protected. agricultural policy (CAP) reform direct payment support While it is right that Government stand behind the schemes for: accrued rights of scheme members, we need to balance a) Young farmers, small farmers, voluntary coupled support this with the financial interests of taxpayers. As the and top-cup for farmers in areas of natural constraints. scheme is relatively young and well-funded, I expect b) Internal redistribution, active farmer and capping of there to be no immediate or short-term cost to Government. support to large farms. Subject to future investment returns the eventual cost On 27 April the Council will be debating the common could be limited, or even nothing if the scheme is able to fisheries policy (CFP): fully cover its liabilities. Initial results from the March 2011 statutory triennial valuation of the scheme showed a) Regionalisation. that it had assets of £665 million and estimated liabilities b) Transferable fishing concessions. of £641 million (104% funded). The guarantee is being There are currently two confirmed any other business granted subject to a number of important conditions, items: an update on the implementation of group housing including Government oversight of the scheme’s future for sows, and a report on promotion measures for investment and funding strategy. agricultural products. 39WS Written Ministerial Statements25 APRIL 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

Also on 27 April the presidency has invited Fishery explosives. The current draft of the proposal is in line Ministers to a lunch to debate “The social-economic with UK objectives and the Government support presidency dimension of the CFP”. efforts to make progress. Over lunch there will be a discussion on terrorism, including the EU CT co-ordinator, Gilles de Kerchove. The lunch discussion provides an opportunity to share HOME DEPARTMENT our current assessment of the threat and provide further reassurance around Olympic security. The Council will also be asked to adopt Council conclusions on Justice and Home Affairs pre-Council Statement de-radicalisation and disengagement from terrorist activities. The Council conclusions affirm that terrorism poses a threat to all states, individuals and communities, and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the seek to promote the exchange of information and best Home Department (James Brokenshire): The Justice and practice between member states on preventing violent Home Affairs Council is due to be held on 26 and extremism and radicalisation. The UK supports this 27 April in Luxembourg. My right hon. Friend the text. Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice and The Council will also be asked to agree Council I intend to attend on behalf of the United Kingdom. As conclusions on a renewed global approach to migration the provisional agenda stands, the following items will and mobility. The existing global approach provides the be discussed: framework for the EU’s external migration policy. We The Council will begin in mixed committee with consider the proposed conclusions to be acceptable, and Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU believe they will lead to a more strategic approach, Schengen states). The presidency will invite an exchange including a strong focus on enhanced practical co-operation. of views by member states and look to agree the road There will also be a discussion on readmission map to ensure coherent EU action on migratory pressures. agreements, with the aim of unblocking negotiations This item builds on discussions at previous Councils, on the EU readmission agreement with Turkey. The with the presidency presenting its “road map” setting Government support the presidency’s intention to finalise out strategic priorities, goals and actions to address that readmission agreement, and believe that this should current migratory pressures on the EU. The UK supports occur as part of a broader EU dialogue on partnership this work to combat illegal flows across the external with Turkey to address issues across the JHA field, border and within the EU, including combating fraud including drugs and terrorism, as well as tackling illegal and abuse of free movement by third-country nationals. immigration. Next there will be an update on the second generation The Justice day will begin with a presentation by the Schengen information system (SIS II). The UK continues Commission of its proposal for a directive on the to support the continuation of the current SIS II project. confiscation of criminal assets, which aims to establish The Commission has committed to deliver the central minimum standards in the freezing and confiscation of element of SIS II in early 2013. the proceeds and instrumentalities of crime in the EU. The main Council will start with a “state of play” The directive currently includes the inclusion of non- report by the presidency on the Common European conviction based confiscation powers (which enable the Asylum System, which will set out the progress that has confiscation of the proceeds of crime when criminal been made on the package to date, including the latest conviction is impossible), which is an approach the UK on current negotiations. The presidency has been mandated has advocated. to start negotiations with the European Parliament on The presidency will seek a partial general approach the proposals to recast the Reception Conditions Directive on criminal sanctions for insider dealing and market and the Dublin III Regulation; some progress has been manipulation. The proposal aims to establish minimum made in Council discussions the Asylum Procedures EU rules concerning the definition of criminal offences Directive, but discussions continue; and the negotiations for market abuse. The directive complements the broader on the Eurodac Regulation remain on hold due to the framework for tackling market abuse, which is provided majority of delegations supporting the insertion of for in the accompanying market abuse regulation. The provisions on access for law enforcement reasons that UK has not opted in to this directive. have not been proposed by the Commission. No discussion There will be an orientation debate on certain issues is anticipated. for the proposed regulation on mutual recognition of The presidency is seeking to reach a general approach protection measures in civil matters. This will be the on the EU-PNR directive. The directive provides a first time that this matter has been discussed at Council. framework for the collection and processing of passenger The instrument aims to establish an effective recognition name record data by member states. The Government and enforcement process of protective/preventative orders support this text, which achieves our primary negotiating among member states and complements the directive objective: provision for data collection from flights within on the European protection order in criminal matters. the EU. The UK supports the overall policy aim of the proposal The Council will be asked to consider its position on and has opted in to it. the regulation on the marketing and use of explosives There will be an exchange of views on certain issues precursors in the light of amendments proposed by the on EU accession to the European Convention of Human European Parliament. The proposal seeks to restrict Rights (ECHR). The accession by the EU will mean access by the general public to certain high-strength that the EU and its institutions are directly bound by chemicals that can be used to manufacture home-made the convention. This will mean that applicants will be 41WS Written Ministerial Statements25 APRIL 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS able to bring cases against the EU instead of, or as well flows in the Union drawing together the capacity building as, states which are parties to the convention. The process developed within the current EU migration Government are keen to ensure that the accession agreement funds and extending these to cover some aspects of is both workable and achievable, and meets the needs of external migration policy under the framework of the the EU and its member states as well as the members of EU global approach to migration. the Council of Europe. In particular the UK is seeking The UK has benefited from participation in predecessor further clarity on what the Union’s internal rules for EU funding programmes, in particular in relation to dealing with the EU’s participation in the ECHR should EU migration funding for returns programmes, resettlement be. projects and community integration projects. The current There will also be an update on the implementation EU migration funds partly finance our charter flight of the European Criminal Records Information programmes and have enabled the UK to expand the System (ECRIS), a computerised exchange system for range of destinations and programme parameters. The criminal convictions between EU countries. The ECRIS UK also has a well established resettlement programme implementation date is 27 April. The UK expects to due to the co-financing from the current EU migration implement ECRIS on time. funding streams. Without this funding UKBA would Under AOB the presidency will provide an update on not be able to continue the scale of resettlement activity current legislative proposals and Hungary will provide currently undertaken. Furthermore, the current European information to the Council on the remembrance for fund for the integration of third country nationals has victims of totalitarian regimes. Hungary is to host this become an important source of funding for third country year’s events to commemorate the victims of totalitarian nationals seeking to integrate into British society. regimes in Europe. The ISF (police) regulation aims to establish the Over lunch, there will be a discussion on “Justice for instrument for financial support for police co-operation, Growth”, which is the Commission’s term for a range of preventing and combating crime and crisis management. civil law instruments that it considers will contribute to The decision not to opt in to the ISF (police) was driven the EU’s growth agenda. by the substance of the proposal as it currently stands, coupled with the overall need for budgetary constraint in this time of fiscal austerity. The UK sees value in the Asylum and Migration Fund and Internal Security Fund ISF (police) fund supporting practical action on police (Police) co-operation and internal security. However, we have ongoing concerns about the budgetary elements of the programme, in particular given the obligations that will The Secretary of State for the Home Department arise from the arrangements for shared management. (Mrs Theresa May): I wish to inform the House that the We need to be absolutely sure that the benefits we will Government have opted in to the proposal for a regulation secure from the programme outweigh the cost of of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing participation. We will consider whether to apply to opt the asylum and migration fund (AMF), and the horizontal in post adoption when the financial commitments win regulation laying down the general provisions for this be known. fund for the period 2014 to 2020. The decision has been made not to opt in to the internal security fund (police) The horizontal regulation establishes the management regulation (ISF police) at this time. procedures for both funds. In concluding that it is in The objectives of the AMF, under the Freedom, our interests to opt in to the AMF it was therefore Security and Justice heading of the EU budget, is to necessary to opt in to this measure. contribute to an effective management of migration All the proposals remain under negotiation.

5P Petitions25 APRIL 2012 Petitions 6P Petition Observations from the Secretary of State for Justice: Government policy is to enable local authorities to make their own funding decisions based on local needs. Wednesday 25 April 2012 We believe that local areas are best placed to commission services which affect local people and it is right that OBSERVATIONS local areas receive the maximum amount of funding available to commission these services. Consequently we have been working with the Department for Communities and Local Government to provide local JUSTICE authorities with flexible funding streams by removing unnecessary ring-fences. Youth Inclusion Programme (Bristol) Under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, the Youth The Petition of residents of Bristol, Justice Board (YJB) is given the power to make grants Declares that, after nine years of working with the to the youth offending teams and this grant has to be families and young people of East Central Bristol, there spent in accordance with the YJB’s own statutory is now a real risk that the East Bristol Youth Inclusion responsibilities. The total amount of funding allocated Programme will not have its funding renewed; and to the Bristol Youth Offending Team by the Youth notes that the Petitioners believe that this cut will have a Justice Board in 2011-12 was £962,230 out of a total negative impact, not just on local young people, but figure of £3,340,255. In effect this funding is paid in the also on the wider community. form of a single youth justice grant. We do not specify what youth justice services the funding should be used The Petitioners therefore request that the House of to support. Youth offending teams have discretion to Commons urges the Government to ensure that money use their YJB grant as they see fit in order to achieve the for preventative work remains ring-fenced, so that young objectives of the youth justice system. This includes people can be given the necessary support to remain out funding to support the full range of prevention activities. of the youth justice system, and live fulfilling and empowered lives. In relation to preventive work, local authorities in England receive an allocation from the UK Government And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Stephen for early intervention through the Early Intervention Williams, Official Report, 2 March 2011; Vol.524, c. 426 .] Grant. This may be used for the purposes of youth [P000891] crime prevention.

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recommendations on advertising which we have accepted. Written Answers to We are monitoring the regulator’s and industry’s delivery of these recommendations and we expect to take stock Questions of the progress so far later this year at which point we will consider whether further action is necessary.

Wednesday 25 April 2012 Broadband

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for PRIME MINISTER Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has made of the effect of reaching his target of Members: Correspondence universal broadband coverage by 2015 on the availability of video relay services for British Sign Language users Graham Stringer: To ask the Prime Minister when he in rural areas. [105290] expects to reply to the letter of 3 February 2012 from the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton. [105130] Mr Vaizey: One of the key factors that will help to increase access to video relay service is broadband with The Prime Minister: A reply has been sent. sufficient bandwidth to handle video streaming. The Political Parties: Finance Government’s aim is to have the best superfast broadband network in Europe by 2015, with 90% of premises having access to superfast broadband and universal Steve Rotheram: To ask the Prime Minister how access to at least 2Mbps. Whilst no assessment has been many Conservative party donors form Liverpool he has made of the number of British Sign Language (BSL) met in an official capacity at 10 Downing street since users in rural areas, achieving the above aim will be a May 2010. [105035] significant step forward in helping BSL users gain access to video relay services. The Prime Minister: Details of hospitality I have received and my meetings with external organisations In this respect I also welcome and support Ofcom’s are published on a quarterly basis. Details can be accessed proposed consultation on options for improving the on the Cabinet Office website at: availability of video relay services. http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/content/ministers- transparency-publications Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what estimate he has made of the proportion of British Sign Language users who are unable to access video relay services due CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT to a lack of high-speed broadband; [105291] Advertising (2) what steps his Department is taking to ensure that all British Sign Language users have access to broadband of sufficient speed to use video relay services. [105292] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what assessment he has made of the effects of advertising on the wellbeing of Mr Vaizey: A minimum bandwidth of approximately adults; [104867] 2 Mbps is needed for an effective video relay service (VRS) and according to Ofcom’s Communications (2) what recent assessment he has made of the effects Infrastructure Report 2011, which was published last of advertising on the wellbeing of children. [104868] summer, the percentage of homes across the UK then receiving download speeds of less than 2 Mbps was Mr Vaizey: No recent assessment has been made of 14%. No assessment has been made of what proportion the effect of advertising on the wellbeing of adults or of these homes include British Sign Language (BSL) children. users. However, I continue to press business, tele- However, the independent regulator, the Advertising communications companies and third sector organisations Standards Authority (ASA), is responsible for ensuring to improve access to VRS for BSL users. that the Advertising Codes are adhered to by advertisers in all media. These codes contain wide-ranging rules Broadband Delivery UK designed to ensure that advertising does not mislead, harm or offend. In particular, they take into account the need to protect children from harmful or inappropriate Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for content. They state that advertisements must also be Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to his socially responsible and prepared in line with the principles answer of 6 December 2011, Official Report, column 187W, of fair competition. The ASA conducts research to on Broadband Delivery UK: manpower, whether he has ensure that what is allowed in advertisements meets the determined the staff resource for each year from 2011-12 expectations of the public with respect to taste and to 2014-15. [105293] decency. ¦In addition, the Government commissioned a report Mr Vaizey: Broadband Delivery UK (BDUK) had a from Reg Bailey, chief executive of the Mother’s Union, total of 10.7 full-time equivalent (FTE) staff during on the commercialisation and sexualisation of children 2011-12. The current projections for staff numbers for which was published last year. The review made the years to 2014-15 are: 881W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 882W

non-departmental public bodies for which his Department Number of FTE staff is responsible and (c) any private firms contracted by 2012-13 25 his Department is bound by any part of the Official 2013-14 24 Secrets Act. [104839] 2014-15 23 John Penrose: The information is as follows: Legal Costs (a) Employees of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) are bound by the Official Secrets Act, in adherence Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, with the Civil Service Management Code. Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department (b) DCMS does not hold this information for its agency or spent on fees for legal work in (a) 2010-11 and (b) arm’s length bodies (ALBs). Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of the Royal Parks and our ALBs to write directly to the 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [104553] hon. Member with this information. John Penrose: The following table sets out the (c) DCMS includes a clause in its service contracts which state that the contractor shall comply with, and shall ensure that its Department’s expenditure on fees for legal work in staff comply with, the provisions of the Officials Secret Act. This financial years 2010-11 and 2011-12, as recorded on the forms part of the overall Protection of Information, which would Department’s accounting system. Figures include solicitor also include the Data Protection Act. and counsel fees, plus any associated expenses. The total does not include legal work provided by our Performing Arts in-house Treasury Solicitors legal adviser’s team. Expenditure relating to the sale of the Horserace Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Totalisator Board (Tote) is shown separately, as it accounts Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made for a high proportion of costs incurred and was a of the contribution to the UK economy made by (a) one-off transaction. classical music and (b) ballet. [105145]

£ Mr Vaizey: The Department does not hold specific 2010-11 2011-12 Total data relating to classical music and ballet. However, in External legal costs 1,276,995 873,339 2,150,334 2009, music and visual performing arts contributed expenditure £4.1 billion to the Cross Value Added in Britain. Of which the following 1,200,079 593,886 1,793,965 From data collected by Arts Council England through related to the Tote sale the annual submission of regularly funded organisations: Museums and Galleries (a) In 2010-11 the 23 organisations that wholly or partially classified their artform as classical music or orchestral had an earned income of £33.7 million (which excludes Arts Council Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for investment). Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much funding The 23 organisations employed 3765 staff in 2010/11 and 1719 from the public purse he has allocated to art galleries in volunteers. each of the last five years. [105333] (b) In 2010-11 the seven organisations that wholly or partially classified their artform as ballet had an earned income of £35.8 million Mr Vaizey: The Arts Council England is the arm’s (which excludes Arts Council investment). length body responsible for allocating funding for the The seven organisations employed 4554 staff in 2010-11 and arts in England. Over the last five years, it has allocated 58 volunteers. the following funding across its various funding strands to organisations which classify their principal art form Public Consultation as Visual Art. This information is set out in the following table. Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, £ million Olympics, Media and Sport which of his Department’s Visual Arts 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 consultations have been externally verified since 2007; for what reason and by whom such verification was Regular 38.129 40.296 42.227 43.125 40.15 carried out; and what the cost to the public purse was Funded of such verification. [104064] Organisations Grants for 15.241 13.953 17.008 13.709 15.483 the Arts John Penrose: Formal verification of compliance with Managed 5.075 5.772 5.749 11.383 4.511 the various obligations set out under the HM Government Funds Code of Practice on Consultation is a matter that is Other 0.0 0.0 9.922 0.339 0.845 normally handled internally, in accordance with the programmes obligation under the Code to monitor the effectiveness Total 58.445 60.021 74.906 68.556 60.988 of consultation exercises. Some of our consultations investment may also have been externally verified, but we do not record this centrally and to provide this information Official Secrets would incur disproportionate cost. It is normal practice for the Department to publish Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for all non-confidential responses to formal written consultation Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether any person exercises, consistent with the Code. Publication of employed by (a) his Department, (b) the agencies and consultation responses promotes transparency and provides 883W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 884W the opportunity for external scrutiny of the consultation Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and process independent of Government. Details of Sport has not directly funded the development or promotion consultations before 2010 can be found on the UK of advice to parents about the use of television by Government web archive at: children in the last five years. However, in that time the http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100407120701/ Government have continued to provide grant-in-aid to http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/consultations/ Ofcom in support of its media literacy activities, which default.aspx have included projects and research to help promote http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100407120701/ adults’ and children’s understanding and use of electronic http:/www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/consultations/ media. The grant-in-aid provided to Ofcom has been as default.aspx follows: and from 2010 at: Grant in aid support (£) http://www.culture.gov.uk/consultations/default.aspx 2007-08 559,000 Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2008-09 559,000 Olympics, Media and Sport whether his Department 2009-10 559,000 accepts anonymous contributions to its consultations. 2010-11 541,000 [104066] 2011-12 305,000

John Penrose: Yes, the Department does accept Theatre anonymous contributions to its consultations. In accordance with the HM Government Code of Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Practice on Consultation all responses are analysed Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much funding carefully, using the expertise, experiences and views of from the public purse he has allocated to London respondents to develop a more effective and efficient theatres in each of the last five years. [105355] policy. The Department processes all personal data in accordance with the Data Protection Act. Mr Vaizey: The Arts Council England is the arm’s length body responsible for funding the arts in England. Retirement Over the last five years, it has allocated the following funding across its various funding strands to organisations in London which classify their principle art form as Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Theatre. This information is set out in the following Olympics, Media and Sport how many staff of his table. Department retired in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; how many such staff were taking early retirement in £ million each such year; and if he will make a statement. [104551] London Theatre John Penrose: The number of staff who retired in the funding 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 periods requested can be found in the following table. Regular 43.46 44.522 45.833 46.935 43.696 Funded Number of such staff Organisations Number of staff who took early Grants for the 3.094 2.694 3.55 3.019 4.732 Financial year who retired retirement Arts Managed 1.673 0.704 2.194 0.933 1.919 2010-2011 23 17 Funds 2011-2012 20 18 Other 0.0 0.0 4.552 0.0 0.242 Total 43 35 programmes Total 48.227 47.92 56.129 50.886 50.589 Swimming Pools investment Vacancies John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many installations of Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, swimming pools have received change of use consent Olympics, Media and Sport how many job vacancies from English Heritage in each of the last 10 years. there were for (a) staff posts and (b) senior civil service [105116] posts in his Department on 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012; and if he will make a statement. [104552] John Penrose: English Heritage does not issue change of use consent. John Penrose: The number of live job vacancies in the Department on the dates requested can be found in the Television following table.

Live on 31 Live on 31 Live on 31 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for March 2010 March 2011 March 2012 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department has spent on developing and promoting SCS posts 0 0 0 Civil service posts 031 advice to parents on the appropriate use of television (below SCS) by their children in each of the last five years. [105299] 885W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 886W

Vacancies were resourced across the civil service, not COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT externally. Video Games Emergency Services: Business

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made Communities and Local Government what estimate he of the proportion of video games sold to children which has made of the cost to business of differing attendance have violence as a theme. [105300] policies operated by the English fire and rescue services Mr Vaizey: No estimates have been made. in response to automatic fire alarm signals from commercial properties. [104139] We have in place a regulatory system to prevent the sale of such products to children. Under the Video Recordings Act, any video games featuring gross violence Robert Neill: The Government have made no estimate are given a “15” or “18” age rating by the British Board of the cost to business of differing attendance policies. of Film Classification (BBFC). It is then an offence to Subsequent to local consultation it is for each fire and sell or rent games carrying these BBFC ratings to rescue authority in England to consider whether and anyone not old enough. how they wish to recover the cost of mobilising to We are further strengthening the statutory regime. persistent false alarms. False alarms (and the resulting Under changes currently being implemented, we are evacuation and business continuity losses) cost businesses, making the Pan European Game Information (PEGI) as well as-fire and rescue authorities, money. It is therefore system the sole method of classifying all video games in in their interests to ensure that their systems are appropriate the UK and the statutory backing will be extended so and well maintained to minimise the disruption and that it will be an offence to supply games rated “12”, as losses caused by persistent false alarms. well as those with the high ratings to anyone not meeting the specific age requirements. First Time Buyers: Government Assistance

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State ATTORNEY-GENERAL for Communities and Local Government what support Bribery Act 2010 he is providing to assist first-time buyers who purchase homes that are not new-builds. [105182] Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how many prosecutions the Serious Fraud Office has Grant Shapps: The Government are committed to brought since the Bribery Act 2011 came into force; helping first-time buyers to purchase their own homes. and how many convictions have been made as a result. The Government’s approach to reducing the UK’s burden [104976] of debt and abolishing the deficit will help to keep The Solicitor-General: The Bribery Act 2010 came interest rates low and improve credit availability for all into force on 1 July 2011. The Serious Fraud Office first time buyers. The Government also welcome the (SFO) investigates the most serious and complex cases FSA’s review of the mortgage market, the Mortgage of economic crime and investigations can take many Market Review. We are encouraging partners to work months or years to conclude. The SFO has not yet with the FSA to ensure that it strikes the right balance prosecuted an individual or company under the Bribery between protection for consumers and consumer choice. Act. I also recently announced a substantial increase to the right to buy discount which will help more people Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 get on to the housing ladder. Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how In addition, in 2011 I brought industry experts together many prosecutions the Serious Fraud Office has for two first time buyer summits to stimulate fresh instigated in the last 18 months using sections 397 to thinking. As a result NewBuy, a new build mortgage 400 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000; indemnity scheme open to all buyers was launched in how many convictions have followed from such March. The scheme will increase housing supply in prosecutions; and what assessment he has made of the England which will help the broader economy, making change in number of such actions from the previous homes more accessible for all. 18 months. [104977] Local Government: Pensions The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) has instigated three prosecutions using sections 397-400 of the Financial Services and Markets Act (2000) since Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 October 2010. These cases are ongoing. The SFO Communities and Local Government what proportion instigated two prosecutions using these provisions in of the eligible workforce for each local authority in the 18 months prior. Both of those cases resulted in England is enrolled in the Local Authority Pension convictions. Scheme. [104978] In addition, although the prosecution was not instigated using these provisions, one plea to section 397 of the Robert Neill: This information is not collected centrally. Act was accepted in the last 18 months. Data about fund membership may be obtained only No formal assessment has been made of this change from the relevant Local Government Pension Scheme in number. administering authority. 887W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 888W

Mortgages: Government Assistance Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and Local Government accepts anonymous and confidential Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State contributions to its consultations. These contributions for Communities and Local Government whether his will not be published unless Freedom of Information Department has any plans to bring forward proposals obligations determine that they should be. The Department to introduce Government-backed 100 per cent mortgages considers who has responded to a consultation, including to certain home buyers. [105183] anonymous contributions, when analysing responses in line with the Consultation Code of Practice. Grant Shapps: The Government are supporting the Public Consultation: Internet industry led NewBuy scheme with a guarantee which will enable buyers to access 95% loan to value mortgages Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities for new build properties. and Local Government whether his Department collects The Government have no plans to introduce the IP addresses of online respondents to its consultations. Government-backed 100% mortgages. [104047]

Planning Permission: Recreation Spaces Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and Local Government does not collect the IP addresses of Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for online respondents to its consultations. Communities and Local Government (1) whether the local green space designation measure has been Rented Housing: Repairs and Maintenance implemented by his Department; and whether local planning authorities are now able to plan its incorporation Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for into local plans and joint core strategies; [105398] Communities and Local Government whether he has (2) if he will assess whether the local green space had any recent discussions on steps to ensure that designation of 100 hectares in close proximity to an landlords letting private properties are made more urban area would be considered appropriate in a local responsible for maintaining their property in a decent plan or joint core strategy subject to proper consultation state of repair. [105357] and examination. [105399] Grant Shapps: I recently met a number of local Robert Neill: The National Planning Policy Framework authorities and interested parties to discuss how we can published in March includes a new designation that can most effectively work together to tackle the small minority be used by local communities to identify for special of rogue and criminal landlords. We will be issuing protection green areas of particular importance to them. further advice to local authorities shortly. These local green spaces can be designated when plans Urban Areas are prepared or reviewed, including when plans are produced jointly. Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for The circumstances for using the new designation are Communities and Local Government whether he plans set out in the framework, including that the designated to revise boundaries for primary urban areas. [104952] area should be in reasonably close proximity to the community served and not an extensive tract of land. Robert Neill: The 56 English primary urban areas, These assessments are for plan makers to undertake on first used in 2006, have a minimum population threshold a case by case basis, reflecting local circumstances of 125,000 and define major cities by their physical and consistent with the local planning of sustainable extent rather than administrative boundaries. More recently development. the Government invited Local Enterprise Partnerships to form around geographies that represent reasonable Public Consultation natural economic geography, supported by business, which are sufficiently strategic. These geographies therefore Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities reflect what businesses and local authorities see as the and Local Government which of his Department’s economic linkages within an area. The Local Economic consultations have been externally verified since 2007; Partnership geographies are used within Government for what reason and by whom such verification was rather than primary urban areas and the Department carried out; and what the cost to the public purse was of has no plans to revise the primary urban areas boundaries. such verification. [104046] Urban Areas: Wales Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and Local Government has not had any consultations externally Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for verified since 2007. Formal verification of compliance Communities and Local Government what progress has with the various obligations set out under the HM been made on the proposal to extend the Portas pilot Government code of practice on consultation is a matter scheme to Wales. [104910] that is normally handled internally, in accordance with the obligation under the code to monitor the effectiveness Grant Shapps: High street regeneration is a devolved of consultation exercises. matter so it is for the Welsh Assembly Government to decide whether they wish to run a programme similar to Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities the Portas pilot scheme in Wales. We are happy to assist and Local Government whether his Department accepts the Welsh Assembly Government with information and anonymous contributions to its consultations. [104048] lessons from initiatives being implemented in England. 889W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 890W

NORTHERN IRELAND David Mundell: All Crown servants and government contractors (as defined by sections 12(1) and 12(2) of National Crime Agency the Official Secrets Act 1989) are subject to the requirements of the Official Secrets Act. Upon entering the Department, Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for all staff are made aware that they are bound by the Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the terms of the Official Secrets Act and that their actions Secretary of State for the Home Department about the resulting in unauthorised disclosure of official information establishment of the National Crime Agency. [104932] may result in legal proceedings being taken against them. Mr Paterson: I am in regular discussion with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), about the National Crime Agency and the implications TRANSPORT for Northern Ireland. My officials are working closely with their counterparts Liquefied Petroleum Gas in the Home Office on the current proposals in relation to the National Crime Agency. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Official Secrets what assessment she has made of the case for supporting liquid petroleum gas as an alternative to traditional Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for road fuels. [104985] Northern Ireland whether any person employed by (a) his Department, (b) the agencies and non-departmental Norman Baker: There are some environmental benefits public bodies for which his Department is responsible of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) vehicles. On a life and (c) any private firms contracted by his Department cycle basis, LPG vehicles produce around 14% less is bound by any part of the Official Secrets Act. [104833] carbon dioxide than petrol. However this is not as good as diesel cars which, for comparable size cars, emit Mr Paterson: All Crown Servants and Government around 20% less carbon dioxide than petrol cars. LPG contractors (as defined by Sections 12(1) and 12(2) of cars deliver similar air quality emissions performance as the Official Secrets Act 1989) are subject to the requirements petrol cars and better than diesel, although the gap has of the Official Secrets Act. Upon entering the department, narrowed substantially with the introduction of Euro 5 all staff are made aware that they are bound by the and 6 diesel cars. terms of the Official Secrets Act and that their actions resulting in unauthorised disclosure of official information Cars that have been constructed or modified to run may result in legal proceedings being taken against on gas benefit from a £10 reduction in taxation levels them. for Alternative Fuel Cars under Vehicle Excise Duty. Owners of LPG cars also benefit from paying lower fuel Serious Organised Crime Agency duty on LPG than would be paid on petrol and diesel. LPG road fuel has a duty reduction worth the equivalent Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for of 35.79p per litre compared with petrol. Northern Ireland on what dates he has met the Secretary of State for the Home Department to discuss the strategic Meetings priorities of the Serious Organised Crime Agency in Northern Ireland. [104931] Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the policy of her Department is on the Mr Paterson: The Serious Organised Crime Agency’s entering of meetings held by Ministers in a private (SOCA) strategic priorities for the UK are set by the capacity in which departmental matters are discussed Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right with interested parties in the register of gifts, hospitality hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and meetings held by the Department. [104745] in consultation with Ministers from the devolved Administrations. They require SOCA to take into account differences in crime priorities in those jurisdictions, Norman Baker: The Department publishes quarterly where appropriate. information about ministerial meetings with external organisations. The published lists include a footnote Ministers do not set separate strategic priorities for explaining the scope of the publication. SOCA in Northern Ireland or any of the devolved Administrations. Railways: East of England

SCOTLAND Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what portion of the revenue from each ticket Official Secrets bought by customers of the Greater Anglian franchise is projected to be used for cross subsidies in each year Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for for which figures are available. [104469] Scotland whether any person employed by (a) his Department and (b) any private firms contracted by Norman Baker [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The his Department is bound by any part of the Official Department for Transport does not hold this information. Secrets Act. [104848] This is a commercial matter for Greater Anglia. 891W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 892W

Railways: Electrification for new nuclear power stations; and what information he has on any representations on this issue from (a) the Nigel Mills: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Czech Republic, (b) France and (c) Poland. [105672] pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Cambridge of 6 March 2012, Official Report, column 635W, on Charles Hendry: In a written ministerial statement electrification, how many miles of track were electrified made on 18 October 2010, Official Report¸ columns in (a) Wales, (b) the North East, (c) the North West, 42-6WS1, the then Secretary of State, the right hon. (d) Yorkshire and the Humber, (e) the West Midlands, Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), set out that there (f) the East Midlands, (g) the East of England, (h) the will be no subsidy for new nuclear. It set out that this South West, (i) the South East and (j) London between means there will be no levy, direct payment or market 1997 and May 2010. [102604] support for electricity supplied or capacity provided by a private sector new nuclear operator, unless similar Mrs Villiers: Nine route miles between Stoke-on-Trent support is also made available more widely to other (West Midlands) and Crewe (North West) had electrification types of generation. That statement also set out that commissioned between May 1997 and May 2010. new nuclear power will benefit from any general measures Please note that the earlier answer of 6 March 2012, that are in place or may be introduced as part of wider Official Report, column 635W, to the hon. Member for reform of the electricity market to encourage investment Cambridge (Dr Huppert), had included in error the in low-carbon generation. We are considering how the electrification of Leeds and Bradford to Skipton and electricity market reforms interact with State Aid rules, Ilkley which was electrified before May 1997 but did and are engaging closely with the European Commission not receive its new trains and full service until after May to ensure the policy is consistent with the appropriate 1997. I have issued a written ministerial statement to rules. correct the previous information. The Department holds discussions with European partners on a range of energy policy issues including nuclear, but we do not hold representations from the ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Czech Republic, France or Poland on plans for subsidies for new nuclear power stations. Green Deal Scheme 1 https://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/nuclear/ new/new.aspx Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change with reference to his Department’s Renewable Energy: Heating press notice entitled Green Deal Cash Boost, published on 8 March 2012, how much of the £3.5 million fund allocated to help train green deal assessors and installers Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for has been (a) allocated to individual projects and (b) Energy and Climate Change if he will make an early spent. [105627] announcement on his plans for bioliquids in the renewable heat incentive. [105272] Gregory Barker: I can confirm that £1 million has been transferred to Asset Skills for training up to 1,000 Gregory Barker: The Government will consult in assessors, and £2 million to Construction Skills to train September 2012 on whether to include bioliquids in the up to 1,000 installers (to which they are adding an non-domestic RHI and on how we can support renewable additional £500,000). Both are currently in the process heating for households in the longer term. of allocating the funds and they hope to begin training in May/June. We expect all the funding to be spent by the end of this calendar year. Members: Correspondence WOMEN AND EQUALITIES

Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Marriage Energy and Climate Change when he expects the Minister of State in his Department, the hon. Member for Bexhill Mr Offord: To ask the Minister for Women and and Battle, to reply to the letter of 24 February 2012 Equalities what assessment she has made of the implications from the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton. of Gas and Dubois v France (2012) (application no. [105129] 25951/07) at the European Court of Human Rights on the introduction of same-sex marriage. [105201] Gregory Barker: The Minister of State for Energy, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), replied to the hon. Member on 17 April 2012, Lynne Featherstone: In a recent ruling of the European as this matter falls into his portfolio. Court of Human Rights (Gas and Dubois v. France), the Court reiterated its earlier ruling in Schalk and He apologised for the delay in doing so, which was Kopf v. Austria that member states are under no obligation due to time spent on the necessary cross-departmental to allow same-sex couples access to marriage. The Gas liaison required for an accurate response. and Dubois decision was incorrectly reported in the Nuclear Power Stations media as stating that churches will be forced to marry same-sex couples. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government will continue to consider any relevant Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he court judgments as they arise in relation to UK Government has had with the European Commission on subsidies policy. 893W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 894W

HOME DEPARTMENT Lynne Featherstone: Under the terms of EU Council Decision 2005/876/JHA the United Kingdom Central Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse Authority for the Exchange of Criminal Records receives criminal conviction notifications from the majority of Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home EU countries. It also handles conviction notifications Department with reference to the new alcohol strategy, received, mostly through Interpol channels, from non-EU what evidence she has received that a ban on multi-buy countries. alcohol promotions will reduce harmful drinking in For all countries an offender will be placed on England and Wales. [103449] the Violent and Sexual Offenders Register (VISOR) if the offence abroad is one that would have resulted in the James Brokenshire: The Government published their offender being placed on VISOR had it occurred in the alcohol strategy on 23 March 2012 which included a UK. If there is a known UK address the VISOR record commitment to consult on a ban on multi-buy promotions will be managed by the police force in which the person in shops. The Government will consider evidence on lives, if not it will be managed by the ACPO Criminal the impact of such a ban as part of the forthcoming Records Office. consultation. Further information on the timing of this consultation will be set out shortly. Written Questions: Government Responses

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the consultation on a ban on Home Department pursuant to her answers of 12 March multi-buy promotions of alcohol will be published. 2012, when she plans to answer written questions (a) [103450] 99352, (b) 99353 and (c) 99354, all tabled on 7 March 2012 for answer on 12 March 2012; and if she will make James Brokenshire: The Government published their a statement. [103675] alcohol strategy on 23 March 2012 which included a commitment to consult on a ban on multi-buy promotions James Brokenshire [holding answer 19 April 2012]: I in shops. Further information on the timing of this refer the hon. Member to my answer given on 24 April consultation will be set out shortly. 2012, Official Report, column 777W. Alcoholic Drinks: Prices

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Home Department when she expects the consultation Livestock on a minimum unit price for alcohol to be published. [103435] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment James Brokenshire: The Government published their she has made of the use of antibiotics on livestock alcohol strategy on 23 March 2012 which included a farms. [103994] commitment to introduce a minimum unit price for alcohol to ensure that alcohol is sold at a sensible and Mr Paice: The UK Government recognises that appropriate price. Further information on the timing of veterinary medicines including antimicrobials are required this consultation will be set out shortly. to ensure the health of food-producing animals in the UK, but believes that their use should not replace good Licensed Premises: Security farm management and animal husbandry systems. The Government takes the issue of antimicrobial Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the resistance very seriously and has developed a comprehensive Home Department whether her Department provides strategy to address it so that the effectiveness of antibiotics guidance and training to nightclub security staff on in both humans and animals can be maintained. A key identifying and seizing identification documents; and if element of this strategy is the collection and publication she will make a statement. [103901] of information on the quantities of antimicrobial products, in particular antibiotics, sold each year for veterinary James Brokenshire: The Home Office has previously use in the UK. published written guidance on false identification documents aimed at door supervisors (including security staff working For the past 13 years, in response to recommendations within pubs and nightclubs). This document is currently made by the Advisory Committee on the microbiological being updated to reflect revised legislation and will be safety of food (ACMSF), the Veterinary Medicines available on the Home Office website in the coming Directorate has collected, collated and published figures months. The guidance will set out the powers available on UK sales volumes of active antimicrobial ingredients to those working within and around nightclubs and in products authorised for use in animals. It is reasonable bars. to assume that there is a close correlation between the reported quantities of products sold and those used in Sexual Offences the UK in the species indicated. From 2005, veterinary pharmaceutical companies have Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for the been required by the Veterinary Medicine Regulations Home Department what steps her Department has 2005 to provide sales data on products for which they taken to ensure authorities in the UK are made aware have marketing authorisations. The latest report is available of the details of paedophiles returning to the UK after at: having been convicted abroad. [104909] http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/fsf/antimicrobial_pubs.aspx 895W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 896W

DEFRA has also funded a number of research and Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands development projects/studies on the use of antibiotics in food producing animals in the UK which provide Tracey Crouch: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer additional information on/assessment of use. how many families there are with one higher rate tax In addition, Government works with the farming payer earning between £50,000 and £55,424. [101137] industry to promote the responsible use of antimicrobials in farmed animals. Accordingly, the DERA Antimicrobials Mr Gauke: There are an estimated 560,000 families Resistance Co-ordination (DARC) Group, the Responsible with at least one higher rate taxpayer with total income Use of Medicines in Agriculture (RUMA) Alliance and between £50,000 and £55,424 in 2011 -12. the British Veterinary Association (BVA) all promote Estimates are based on Family Resources Survey the responsible use of antimicrobials in veterinary medicine. data for 2009-10, projected to 2011-12 using economic assumptions consistent with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s November 2011 Economic and Fiscal Outlook. TREASURY Infrastructure Child Benefit Andrew Rosindell: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Guto Bebb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of progress in implementing (1) what estimate he has made of the likely saving to the updated National Infrastructure Plan. [104247] the Exchequer of the withdrawal of child benefit for single earner families earning between £50,000 and Danny Alexander: The Government continue to take £60,000; [104683] an active role in ensuring the infrastructure identified in (2) what the marginal tax rate will be for a co-habiting the National Infrastructure Plan 2011 is delivered efficiently single earner with (a) one child, (b) two children, (c) and on time, with priority given to those projects most three children and (d) four children and earning between critical for economic growth. £50,000 and £60,000 per annum. [104756] An update on this was published alongside the Budget, which sets out progress that has been made on the Mr Gauke: An estimate of the saving to the Exchequer priority infrastructure investments identified in the National that accrue from withdrawal of child benefit only from Infrastructure Plan 2011 and progress on other single earning families who earn between £50,000 and infrastructure measures since the autumn statement. £60,000 would be available only at disproportionate cost. Revenue and Customs Effective marginal tax rate (MTR) for an individual in paid employment facing the high income child benefit charge and with Mr Burley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer income between £50,000 and £60,000 a year (2013-14)1 what assessment he has made of the availability of the Effective MTR1 (percentage) HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) returns and forms One child 53 website during the Easter period; for what reasons the Two children 60 HMRC website was upgraded during that period; and Three children 66 what assessment he has made of the effect of the decision to perform upgrades during that period on Four children 73 businesses seeking to use the website. [104674] 1 Where, in addition to the child benefit charge, the individual facing the charge pays the higher rate of income tax at 40% and individual Class 1 national insurance contributions at 2% (the figures are rounded Mr Gauke: HMRC needs to make updates to its IT to the nearest percentage point). systems to ensure alignment to legislative changes that take effect at the end of one financial year and the start Guto Bebb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of another. (1) what the estimated cost to HM Revenue and HMRC deliberately plans updates at weekends as Customs is of administrating the system to withdraw this is the time when its systems are used least by child benefit from those earning between £50,000 and customers. This year upgrades were planned over the £60,000 per annum; [104754] Easter bank holiday weekend as this coincided with the (2) how many additional families will be required to end of the financial year. complete a tax return as a result of his decision to The HMRC webpage was maintained throughout the withdraw child benefit from those earning between upgrade period. The downtime of transaction online £50,000 and £60,000 per annum. [104755] services, through which customers submit returns and forms,, was planned to be kept to a minimum taking Mr Gauke: The estimated administrative cost of into account the needs to specific customer groups. In recovering through the tax system child benefit paid to particular, HMRC kept to a minimum the downtime families with a person earning over £50,000 a year, experienced by the customers who use online services to along with the estimated number of additional people facilitate the movement of goods in and out of the UK. required to complete a tax return, can be found in the The Department also aligned its downtime with the Tax Information and Impact Note (TIIN) which was planned downtime of the Government Gateway, run by published on HMRC’s website: DWP, as many customers use this to access online www.hmrc.gov.uk services. 897W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 898W

The service was back eight hours ahead of schedule be claimed by first time buyers on residential property making this the shortest period of planned outage that bought for between £125,000 and £250,000. The amount customers have experienced. HMRC worked closely of SDLT raised from first time buyers on property with selected customers whilst making the changes to bought for £250,000 or less during this period should ensure that when the service was brought back up it therefore be zero. worked as expected. For earlier years, no receipts data are available. HMRC HMRC maintained the VAT returns service up to administrative systems did not identify whether a stamp and including 7 April enabling customers to file their duty land taxpayer was a first time buyer. returns as usual. Some 24,000 customers benefited and filed their returns on the 6 and 7 April. Tax Allowances Social Security Benefits Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Ann Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much in current prices was claimed in tax relief on (1) what estimate he has made of the cost to the public giving in each of the last 10 years; and how much he purse per household of the total increase in the tax expects to be claimed in each of the next three years. threshold over the last three budgets for (a) couples [104886] with at least one child with gross earnings between £7,000 and £20,000 per annum and (b) single people Mr Gauke: Data on amounts of tax relief for those with gross earnings between £30,000 and £40,000 per cases where it is possible to make an accurate estimate annum, taking into account the reduction in tax paid of the amounts involved are published at: and the savings in housing benefit and council tax http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/charities/table10-2.pdf expenditure caused by the increased individuals’ net Forecasts for these figures are not available. income arising from the increase in the tax threshold; [102272] Taxation (2) what estimate he has made of the savings in housing benefit and council tax benefit that have Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Chancellor of the accrued as a result of the measures to increase the tax Exchequer (1) what information HM Revenue and Customs threshold in each of the last three Budgets. [102276] holds on the number of taxpayers with annual incomes of over (a) £150,000, (b) £500,000, (c) £1 million and Mr Gauke [holding answer 27 March 2012]: The (d) £2 million who pay an average tax rate on their information is not available. The level of savings from income of less than (i) 10, (ii) 20, (iii) 30, (iv) 40 and housing benefit and council tax benefit resulting from (v) 50 per cent; [97755] increases to the personal allowance will depend on the level of benefit take-up among the group of households (2) what the average tax rate paid on income and benefiting from these measures. gains combined by those with annual incomes of over (a) £150,000, (b) £500,000, (c) £1 million and (d) The main Budget documents for the years 2010, 2011 £2 million was in the latest period for which figures are and 2012, available on the HM Treasury website, contain available; [97800] the Government’s assessment of the direct costs of these policy measures, as signed off by the OBR. (3) what the average rate of capital gains tax paid by those with annual incomes of (a) £150,000 or more, Stamp Duty Land Tax (b) £500,000 or more, (c) £1 million or more and (d) £2 million or more was in the latest period for which Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer figures are available. [97801] how much revenue was raised from stamp duty land tax paid by first-time buyers on property bought for Mr Gauke [holding answer 5 March 2012]: The £250,000 or less in each of the last five years. [105177] information requested is as follows: (i) The proportion of taxpayers liable to income tax Miss Chloe Smith: Between 25 March 2010 and 24 by their total income and average income tax rate are March 2012, a stamp duty land tax (SDLT) relief could shown in the following table:

Proportion (%) of individuals reporting various average tax rates by total income category (2010-11) Income Average tax £100,000 to £150,000 to £250,000 to £500,000 to £1,000,000 to £5,000,000 to Over rates £150,000 £250,000 £500,000 £1,000,000 £5,000,000 £10,000,000 £10,000,000

Above40%0 67381808172 30% to 40% 67 77 18 11 10 8 12 20%to30%241354548 10%to20%8322233 Under 10% 1222346

Figures are based on an analysis of self-assessment rates at the lower limit (e.g. a tax rate of exactly 30% (SA) returns for the 2010-11 tax year, as available at falls in the “30% to <40%” category). Budget 2012. Income bands include those with average 899W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 900W

(ii), (iii) Rates of capital gains tax range from 10% to Channel Islands in relation to his decision to end low 28% in 2011-12. value consignment relief for goods imported from the Channel Islands. [104676] Taxation: Environment Protection Mr Gauke: The Judicial Review brought by the Dr Whitehead: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Governments of Guernsey and Jersey in respect of the what timetable his Department has agreed for the decision to limit Low Value Consignment Relief was determination of the classification of environmental decided in the Government’s favour on 15 March 2012. policies that could be described as levy mechanisms The Governments of Guernsey and Jersey subsequently referred to the Classification Committee of the Office announced that they do not intend to appeal against the for National Statistics. [105304] judgement and the changes came into effect on 1 April. This outcome will ensure that UK businesses, especially Danny Alexander [holding answer 24 April 2012]: small and medium-sized enterprises, can compete on a The timetable for decisions by the National Accounts level playing field with businesses which are based in the Classification Committee is a matter for the independent Channel Islands. Office for National Statistics. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Dr Whitehead: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he plans to take to ensure that companies what environmental policies that could be described as previously located in the Channel Islands for the purpose levy mechanisms his Department is currently considering of exploiting low value consignment relief do not relocate for future referral to the Classification Committee of to other jurisdictions for the purpose of avoiding the the Office for National Statistics. [105305] impact of his decision to end such relief for goods imported from the Channel Islands. [104677] Danny Alexander [holding answer 24 April 2012]: HM Treasury considers referral of policies to the ONS Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs will be on a case by case basis. monitoring the effect of the change to the Low Value Consignment Relief regime, taking particular interest Dr Whitehead: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in any relocation of businesses to other non-EU jurisdictions if he will list the environmental policies that could be in order to retain the benefits of LVCR. Should HMRC described as levy mechanisms that his Department has identify evidence that such diversion is occurring, and referred to the Classification Committee of the Office that it has the potential to distort the market, the for National Statistics. [105306] Government will consider removing the LVCR from mail order from those jurisdictions. Danny Alexander [holding answer 24 April 2012]: In November 2009 HM Treasury referred a selection of Working Tax Credit environmental policies to the ONS for classification, of these those that could be described as levy mechanisms were: Sadiq Khan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many families in Tooting constituency claiming Sustainable urban drainage systems; working tax credit will be affected by the increase in the Carbon emission reduction targets; working hours requirement. [104968] Community energy savings programme; Packaging recovery notes; Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the parliamentary Zero carbon buyout fund; question answered on the 10 January 2012, Official Renewable transport fuel obligation; and Report, column 72W. Feed-in-tariffs. Written Questions: Government Responses VAT Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Chancellor of the Guto Bebb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer when he plans to answer written question if he will estimate the number of businesses in Wales (a) 97800, (b) 97801 and (c) 97755, tabled on 28 February that will be affected by planned changes to VAT on 2012 for answer on 5 March 2012. [103141] caravans. [104682] Mr Gauke [holding answer 16 April 2012]: Ihave Mr Gauke: Annex B—Tables of Impact for Individual done so today. Measures in HM Revenue and Customs consultation document ″VAT: Addressing Borderline Anomalies″, published at Budget 2012, sets out estimates for VAT which will be raised from holiday caravans and a summary of impacts upon which comments are invited. WALES http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/vat-con-4801.pdf First Great Western VAT: Channel Islands 14. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the for Wales what recent discussions she has had with the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the outcome First Minister of Wales on the First Great Western of the recent case brought by the governments of the franchise. [104197] 901W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 902W

Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my Mr Simon Burns: Information is held at the level of right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham trusts and is not available for specific hospital sites. The (Mrs Gillan), meets with the First Minister on a regular information is published every week and is available on basis, the latest meeting having taken place only last the Department’s website at: week. Their discussions include a range of transport www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/ issues affecting Wales. Performancedataandstatistics/WeeklySituationReports/ index.htm Rail Transport Breast Cancer: Screening Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions she has had with the First Minister of Wales on developing rail transport in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Wales. [104195] (1) what estimate he has made of the proportion of women who have had mammograms who subsequently Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my have been informed of their breast density; [105254] right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (2) what information his Department holds on the (Mrs Gillan), has regular discussions with the First correlation between breast density and the five-year Minister about a range of transport issues that affect survival rate for women with breast cancer; [105255] Wales, and discussed the importance of rail infrastructure with him last week. (3) if he will consider making it his policy that all GPs should inform women who have undergone breast Official Secrets screening of their breast density. [105258]

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: Breast density information is not routinely Wales whether any person employed by (a) her Department collected as part of the NHS Breast Screening Programme. and (b) any private firms contracted by her Department General practitioners (GPs) are notified of the outcome is bound by any part of the Official Secrets Act. [104850] of a patient’s breast screening examination but this only covers whether the results were normal or whether the Mr David Jones: All civil servants and government patient has been called back for further investigation. contractors are bound by the Official Secrets Act. We have made no estimate of the proportion of women who have had mammograms and have subsequently been informed of their breast density. CABINET OFFICE High breast density is known to increase the risk of a woman developing breast cancer. However, the Department Government Departments: Private Sector holds no specific information on the correlation between breast density and the five-year survival rate for women Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Minister for the with breast cancer. Cabinet Office pursuant to the answer of 16 April 2012, Official Report, column 180W, on Government departments: private sector, if he will publish outsourcing Cancer deals by each Government department which are cleared by the Cabinet Office; and if he will indicate in detail Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how he intends to publish that information. [104520] what assessment he has made of the effects of (a) low dose aspirin, (b) vitamin D pills, (c) consumption of Mr Maude: The information requested is as follows: red meat and (d) consumption of alcohol on the “Under EU procurement rules, public sector organisations development of cancer. [104888] must advertise contracts above certain thresholds (currently £113,057 for central Government goods and services) in the Official Journal Paul Burstow: Over the last decade, the evidence base of the European Union at: for using aspirin to prevent cancer has been growing. http://www.ojeu.eu/ While its exact role in achieving this is not fully understood, In addition, in order to increase transparency and open up it is thought that aspirin might prevent cancer through procurement to SMEs, central Government Departments and their arm’s length bodies are required to advertise all procurements its anti-inflammatory effects and that it may also slow over £10,000 and publish tender documents and contracts for the build up of mutations that ultimately lead to the procurements over £10,000 on Contracts Finder: cancer. In addition to this, new research shows that the http://www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/ ” drug seems to slow the spread of disease by preventing cancer cells from being carried around the body on blood platelets. The Department, the Medicines and Healthcare products HEALTH Regulatory Agency, the National Institute for Health Accident and Emergency Departments: Waiting Lists and Clinical Excellence and stakeholders are working in partnership to consider next steps on aspirin. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition what recent reports he has received on waiting times at (SACN), an advisory committee of independent experts accident and emergency departments at (a) Queen that provides advice to the Department, considered the Elizabeth Hospital, Woolwich, (b) Princes Royal relationship between meat and bowel cancer as part of Hospital, Orpington and (c) Darent Valley Hospital, a risk assessment on iron and health in 2010. The Dartford. [104728] available scientific evidence supports a probable association 903W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 904W between red and processed meat consumption and bowel (Dr Murrison), in his report “Fighting Fit”. To date, we cancer risk. The SACN report Iron and Health can be have taken forward the following relevant projects: pilot found at: of the Big White Wall online early intervention service www.sacn.gov.uk/pdfs/sacn_iron_and_health_report_web.pdf for the armed forces, their families, and veterans; uplift in the NHS veterans’ mental health capability; e-learning SACN was unable to quantify the amount of red and package for general practitioner (GPs) on veteran-specific processed meat that may be associated with increased issues, in conjunction with the Royal College of GPs; bowel cancer risk due to the limitations and inconsistencies and the veterans’ 24-hour helpline. The remaining in the data. SACN are advising adults with relatively recommendation contained within “Fighting Fit” was high intakes of red and processed meat, i.e. over 90g/day, the Veterans’Information Service, to be deployed 12 months to consider reducing their intakes. A reduction of intake after a person leaves the armed forces. This is currently to 70 grams a day, which is the population average, will being developed, and will be launched later in the year. not increase the proportion of the adult population with low iron intakes. With regard to the quoted £22 million budget associated In its 2007 statement, SACN advised that research with the report, approximately £15 million of this is into the link between vitamin D status and chronic funding dedicated to the improvement of veterans’ diseases, including cancer, is inconclusive and further prosthetics services. £7.2 million will be spent over the work is needed before any definitive conclusions can be spending review period on implementing the “Fighting drawn. The statement can be found at: Fit” recommendations. Of this, £1.8 million has already been spent on the projects already mentioned, with the www.sacn.gov.uk/pdfs/ remainder profiled over the rest of the spending review sacn_position_vitamin_d_2007_05_07.pdf period. In 2010, the Department asked SACN to undertake a comprehensive review of vitamin D and health and a SACN Working Group was set up to take forward this Hospitals: Waiting Lists work. The proceedings of SACN’s Vitamin D Working Group and its terms of reference are available at: www.sacn.gov.uk/meetings/working_groups/vitamin/ Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health index.html what recent reports he has received on referral to The review is not expected to complete until around treatment times in (a) Bexley Care Trust and (b) 2014. South London Healthcare NHS Trust areas. [104729] The Department considered the evidence of alcohol on the development of cancer for the Change4Life Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is as alcohol health harms campaign that launched in February follows: 2012. The International Agency for Research into Cancer The percentage of referral to treatment (RTT) patients recognises that alcohol is one of the most strongly that started admitted treatment within 18 weeks (admitted established preventable causes of cancer, as evidenced adjusted RTT pathways): through its “Monographs on the Evaluation of (a) Bexley Care Trust = n/a (this trust does not have in-patient Carcinogenic Risks to Humans”, which can be found services) at: (b) South London Healthcare NHS Trust = 89.9% http://monographs.iarc.fr/ The percentage of RTT patients that started non- There is substantial evidence that drinking alcohol is admitted treatment within 18 weeks (non-admitted RTT associated with increased risk of seven types of cancer— pathways): oral, pharyngeal, laryngeal, oesophageal, breast, bowel, and liver cancers. There is also evidence that heavy (a) Bexley Care Trust = 100% drinking increases the risk of pancreatic cancer. (b) South London Healthcare NHS Trust = 91.8% The percentage of RTT patients waiting within 18 weeks Health Services: Ex-servicemen (incomplete RTT pathways): (a) Bexley Care Trust = 100% Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (b) South London Healthcare NHS Trust = 90.7% (1) pursuant to the answer of 6 March 2012, Official Report, column 541W, on armed forces: psychology, if Notes: he will publish a list of the key recommendations of the 1. Admitted RTT waiting times pathways are waiting times for Fighting Fit report by the hon. Member for South West patients whose treatment started during the month and involved Wiltshire that his Department has (a) taken forward admission to hospital. and (b) not taken forward; [104905] 2. Non-admitted RTT pathways are waiting times for patients whose treatment started during the month and did not involve (2) pursuant to the answer of 29 February 2012, admission to hospital. Official Report, column 541W, on health services: ex-servicemen, how much of the £22 million budget has 3. Incomplete RTT pathways are waiting times for patients still been spent to date; and what the (a) name and (b) waiting to start treatment at the end of the month. description is of each project that has been supported 4. Adjustments are made to admitted RTT pathways for clock by the funding. [104907] pauses, where a patient had declined reasonable offers of admission and chosen to wait longer. Mr Simon Burns: The Department has made excellent Source: progress to date, implementing the recommendations of Department of Health referral to treatment waiting times statistics my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Unify2 data collection) for February 2012 905W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 906W

Meat work with industry to assemble evidence of this practice in other member states and of intra-community trade in this product. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what discussions he has had with (a) the Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State European Commission, (b) the UK meat-processing for Health if he will publish any advice he has received industry and (c) the devolved Administrations on the on whether the production of desinewed meat complies European Commission moratorium on the production with EU single market legislation. [105008] of desinewed meat. [105004] Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA), Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA), which has policy responsibility in this area, issued guidance which has policy responsibility in this area, has had the in 2010 which reflected the United Kingdom view that following discussions on desinewed meat: desinewed meat (DSM) is distinct from mechanically separated meat (MSM). This is the view the UK has (a) The FSA held urgent discussions with senior European Commission (EC) officials once the EC made its position known expressed in European Commission (EC) Working Groups. on desinewed meat, securing an extension to the original five-day Following a Food and Veterinary Office mission in deadline for action. The FSA continues to pursue this matter March 2012, the UK was informed by the EC that vigorously with the EC at all levels. desinewed meat can no longer be produced from ruminant (b) The FSA has been in regular contact with businesses and bones and that DSM made from poultry or pork bones industry representatives since the EC set out its position on should be labelled as MSM. The FSA has explained the desinewed meat. The FSA will continue its work on assessing the EC decision in detail to industry and is working closely impact of the EC decision with industry bodies and affected with industry representatives to assess the impact of the businesses. decision and produce guidance. (c) The FSA has been in regular contact with the devolved Administrations to assess the impact of the EC decision and develop practical guidance for affected businesses. The FSA has Medical Treatments also been working closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on this matter. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 29 February 2012, Official Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Report, column 541W, on medical treatments, if his for Health what assessment he has made of the effect Department will conduct an assessment of studies, of the European Commission moratorium on the interventions and research into any effect of optimism production of desinewed meat on the UK meat on the ability of patients to fight (a) infectious and (b) processing industry. [105005] cardiovascular disease. [104899] Mr Simon Burns: The Department has no plans to Anne Milton: I refer the hon. Member to the written conduct such an assessment into any effect of optimism answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk on the ability of patients to fight infectious and and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on 23 April 2012, Official cardiovascular disease. Report, column 727W. Mental Health Services Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what meetings he had with European Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Commission representatives on desinewed meat before how much the NHS spent on each of the top five drugs the European Commission introduced its moratorium to treat depression in each of the last five years. on the production of desinewed meat. [105006] [104878]

Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA), Mr Simon Burns: The cost to the national health which has policy responsibility in this area, participated service for the five antidepressant medicines for which it in working groups at the European Commission which has incurred most expenditure and their ranking, for discussed guidance on mechanically separated meat each year have been determined by adding the use in the (MSM). At these meetings, the FSA supported the community and in hospitals. However, because of the United Kingdom position that desinewed meat should agreement under which the Health and Social Care not be classed as MSM. Information Centre receive the hospital data, we are unable to give figures for individual medicines unless they have been positively appraised by the National Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, which is for Health what assessment he has made of whether not the case for antidepressants. EU member states other than the UK export The following table shows the order of greatest desinewed meat. [105007] expenditure for each of the top five medicines, with the net ingredient cost (NIC) for their use in the community Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA), and a total for the estimated cost of the use of these five which has policy responsibility in this area, has been drugs in hospitals. The latest data we can provide for informed by UK producers that desinewed meat is also hospitals are for 2010; therefore the latest available exported by other member states. The FSA continues to five-year period is 2006 to 2010. 907W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 908W

Community Overall rank: 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Drug NIC (£) Drug NIC (£) Drug NIC (£) Drug NIC (£)

2006 Venlafaxine 78,018,719 Escitalopram 28,735,236 Sertraline 26,285,316 Mirtazapine 25,055,639 2007 Venlafaxine 78,266,903 Mirtazapine 30,769,299 Citalopram 26,297,084 Escitalopram 27,116,559 2008 Venlafaxine 83,144,970 Mirtazapine 29,622,183 Escitalopram 25,160,394 Citalopram 15,585,255 2009 Venlafaxine 78,029,438 Escitalopram 24,361,317 Mirtazapine 23,514,730 Citalopram 17,821,415 2010 Venlafaxine 63,865,331 Escitalopram 24,965,426 Citalopram 21,574,191 Fluoxetine 21,091,828

NICE has developed clinical guidelines on a number Community Hospital Total spend (£) spend (£) of these conditions and is responsible for determining Overall the exact scope of its guidance on individual disease rank: 5th 1-5 1-5 areas, including the specific interventions covered. Estimated NICE’S clinical guidelines on depression in adults, Drug NIC (£) cost published in October 2009, and on common mental 2006 Citalopram 23,775,430 7,897,545 189,767,885 health disorders, published in May 2011, include recommendations on mindfulness-based cognitive therapy. 2007 Fluoxetine 17,616,438 6,923,718 186,990,001 2008 Lofepramine 15,222,407 6,304,488 175,039,697 2009 Amitriptyline 15,764,074 5,614,081 165,105,055 Mental Illnesses 2010 Amitriptyline 17,686,679 4,162,218 153,345,673 Notes: Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 1. The community spend is NIC and is taken from the Prescription what the average relapse rate is for people suffering Cost Analysis system. with depression. [104869] 2. The hospital dispensing information is provided by IMS. It is based on information collected by IMS from most hospitals in England. 3. The cost to the NHS is the total of the amount dispensed in the Anne Milton: Although most patients remit from any community and the amount used in hospital. There may also be some episode of depression (when it is not chronic), symptoms expenditure by mental health trusts involving direct supply rather often come back at some later time. Depression is now than prescriptions and not passing through a hospital pharmacy. This considered to be a largely recurrent disorder and Cognitive use is not collected centrally. Behavioural Therapy prepares people to prevent recurrence. There is no average relapse rate of depression. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the use of galvanic Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health skin response meters in the treatment of mental health (1) what assessment he has made of the effects of patients. [104890] chronic depression on the mortality rates of those affected; [104891] Paul Burstow: Our priority is to ensure people have (2) if he will estimate the proportion of chronically access to a wide range of therapies and treatments, depressed people who (a) smoke, (b) are alcoholics, based on evidence assessed by the National institute of (c) take illegal drugs, (d) are obese and (e) are physically Clinical Excellence (NICE). NICE has not issued guidance inactive. [104893] on the use of galvanic skin response meters. However, services are not restricted to offering NICE approved Anne Milton: No such estimates have been made for therapies and treatments and there are many other chronically depressed people. However, individual studies forms of therapy made available through the national show people with depression are at a greater risk of health service when clinicians and other professionals early death and that having a mental health problem deem it appropriate. increases the risk of physical ill health. This is why one of the agreed objectives of the mental health strategy “No Health Without Mental Health” is that more people Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with mental health problems will have good physical if he will ask the National Institute for Health and health, and progress will be monitored against this Clinical Excellence (NICE) to assess the efficacy of objective in the NHS outcomes framework with indicators mindfulness-based therapy for the conditions of (a) on the mortality rate of people with mental illness bipolar disorder, (b) social phobia, (c) drug misuse, (domain 5) and under 75 mortality rate in people with (d) alcohol misuse, (e) psychological symptoms that serious mental illness (domain 1). accompany cancer, (f) blood pressure, (g) chronic pain and (h) stress; and if he will ask the National There is a clear association between mental illness Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to assess and drug and alcohol dependence and we know that the efficacy of mindfulness-based therapy to reduce the people experiencing mental ill health have a higher risk symptoms of (i) fibromyalgia, (ii) psoriasis and (iii) of substance misuse. There is currently no standardised treatment for people with dual diagnosis (co-existing multiple sclerosis. [104896] mental health and drug and alcohol problems); largely because the condition covers such a broad, range of Anne Milton: We have no plans to ask the National problems. The Government continue to actively promote Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) to and support improvements in commissioning and service develop guidance specifically on mindfulness-based therapy. provision for this group, their families and carers. 909W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 910W

We recognise that smoking is a significant health (7) what assessment he has made of the use of challenge for people with mental health problems. “No mindfulness-based techniques to overcome obsessive Health Without Mental Health” makes clear that help compulsive disorder. [104877] to stop smoking can play a very big part in improving the physical health of people with mental health problems. Paul Burstow: The prevalence of obsessive compulsive It is for NHS commissioners to decide how best to disorder (OCD) in 1993, 2000 and 2007 is available allocate and manage their funds to match the needs of from the Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey 2007, and their populations. We are currently working on an shows the following: implementation framework for the mental health strategy Prevalence of OCD among adults ages 16 to 64 and living in England which will be published shortly. Percentage Musculoskeletal Disorders 1993 1.4 2000 1.2 Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 1.3 Health what recent discussions he has had with the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Data on the number of people affected by OCD in on the publication of a Pathway for musculoskeletal each of the last five years and how many people were diseases; and if he will make a statement. [104681] diagnosed with OCD in each such year is not held centrally. Anne Milton: We have had no such discussions. The The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) approved treatments for OCD that are available (NICE) uses online Pathways as a way of presenting through Improving Access to Psychological Therapy information from existing NICE guidance on a particular (IAPT) services are Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) topic. The topics for which a Pathway presentation is based. These treatments for OCD are taught routinely developed, and the sequencing of associated development as part IAPT High Intensity Therapist national training work, are determined by NICE itself. courses. Currently, there is no evidence base established for the use of mindfulness techniques in the treatment NHS: Pay of OCD. However, mindfulness is an emerging and growing field with randomised control trials under way Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for on its use in the treatment of a number of long-term Health how many employees in the NHS received conditions. In future, if evidence suggests it is effective incremental pay progression in each of the last three in the treatment of OCD then IAPT services will use it years. [104749] for patients with OCD. It is the job of NICE to carry out such assessments of Mr Simon Burns: No data are readily available in this the evidence base of treatments. The latest guidance format. We estimate that in September 2010 around produced by NICE on the treatment of anxiety disorders two-thirds of staff under “Agenda for Change” are not published in January 2011 does not recommend mindfulness yet at the top of their pay band and so would be eligible techniques in the treatment of OCD. The treatments for further incremental progression. recommended combine psychological therapies and medication as appropriate to the level of the patient’s NHS: Training disorder. With regards to the content and standard of medical Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health training, this is the responsibility of the General Medical (1) if he will consider making mindfulness-based Council (GMC), which is the competent authority for techniques a compulsory element for the training of medical training in the United Kingdom. The GMC is GPs and surgeons; [104870] an independent professional body. Its role is that of (2) if he will estimate the proportion of recently custodian of quality standards in medical education trained GPs who received training in mindfulness- and practice. based techniques; [104871] The GMC is committed to ensuring high quality (3) whether mindfulness-based techniques are patient care delivered by high quality doctors and that offered as an option to all those training to be GPs and doctors are equipped with the knowledge, skills and surgeons; [104872] behaviours required to deal with the problems and (4) what positive and negative aspects his Department conditions they will encounter in practice. has identified of the use of (a) drug therapy and (b) Both drug therapy and mindfulness-based CBT therapy mindfulness-based therapy for reported bouts of depression; are NICE approved for the treatment of recurrent [104874] depression. Randomised controlled trials show that a (5) what estimate his Department has made of the combination of drug therapy and mindfulness provide number of people affected by obsessive compulsive the best results in recurrent depression. disorder (OCD) in each of the last five years; and how many people were diagnosed with OCD in each such year; [104875] Official Secrets (6) what treatments are available on the NHS for obsessive compulsive disorder; and whether any of those Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for treatments include mindfulness-based techniques; Health whether any person employed by (a) his [104876] Department, (b) the agencies and non-departmental 911W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 912W public bodies for which his Department is responsible (6) how many NHS trusts currently have waiting and (c) any private firms contracted by his Department times in excess of National Institute for Health and is bound by any part of the Official Secrets Act. [104838] Clinical Excellence guidelines for access to psychological treatments for mothers experiencing post-natal depression; Anne Milton: All Crown servants and Government [104948] contractors (as defined by sections 12(1) and 12(2) of (7) how many NHS trusts do not have access to a the Official Secrets Act 1989) are subject to the requirements mother and baby unit for women suffering from severe of the Official Secrets Act. post-natal depression or puerperal psychosis. [104949] The employment contracts for civil servants in the Department and its agency make explicit reference to Anne Milton: We do not hold data on the number of being bound by the Official Secrets Act, although they mothers experiencing post-natal depression. Our data are no longer required to sign the Official Secrets Act. sources that hold detailed demographics and diagnostics The Department’s Code of Business Conduct, published data are restricted to secondary care and the majority of on its intranet, makes explicit reference to the Official women experiencing post natal depression are expected Secrets Act, and the duties of civil servants and everyone to be treated in primary care. working for and on behalf of the Department. We do not have the figures for the numbers of women Contractors, and their employees, providing goods or with post puerperal psychosis treated in general psychiatric services to the Department are subject to the Official wards because there is no specific diagnostic code for Secrets Act in a similar way as civil servants. puerperal psychosis. It is included in a general code The precise legal position of staff working for the covering all severe mental health disorders associated Department’s non-departmental public bodies is currently with the puerperium and to provide analysis on this being established and I will write to the hon. Member general code would be misleading. with this information as soon as possible and place a Current coding practice means that diagnostic codes copy in the Library. are usually only recorded for discharged in-patients. The issue of improving links between maternity and Pain: Mental Illnesses mental health information collections to enable better analysis has been considered by the NHS Health and Social Care Information Centre. Recommendations for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health improvement will be developed during 2012-13. if he will estimate the proportion of patients suffering Commissioning mother and baby units is included in with chronic pain who have mental health problems. the Specialised Services National Definition Set, which [104892] is commissioned by Specialised Commissioning Groups. The Specialised Commissioning Groups have worked Paul Burstow: The chapter on chronic pain in the together to agree a specification for mother and baby 2008 Annual Report of the former chief medical officer units so that they will all commission to the same estimated that 49%, of people with chronic pain suffered standard from 1 April 2012. from depression. Other literature suggests that depression is four times more common for people in persistent pain There is currently a Perinatal Clinical Reference Group compared to those without such pain. Data collected as for specialised services, which is developing the in-patient part of the Health Survey for England 2011, which specification further, developing quality outcome measures included a module on chronic pain, should enable us to and considering some possible commissioning for quality update these estimates. and innovation targets to enable commissioners to reward excellence. A Perinatal Positive Practice Guide was produced by Postnatal Depression the Department in January 2009 which confirms that improving access to psychological therapies (IAPT) services Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health should be commissioned to meet the needs of those (1) what steps he is taking to increase the availability with perinatal mental health problems. A number of of places in mother and baby units for women access issues, treatment requirements, workforce training experiencing severe post-natal depression or puerperal implications and other considerations are identified, together with examples of good practice across IAPT psychosis; [104943] services and other generic and specialist services. (2) how many women with puerperal psychosis were treated in general psychiatric wards in each of the last The IAPT data collection does not include information about access and waiting times for women experiencing three years; [104944] post-natal depression and post puerperal psychosis. (3) what action he is taking to improve the data collected by his Department on post-natal depression; The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists [104945] Standards for Maternity Care (published in 2008) state that all health professionals involved in the care of (4) what steps he is taking to increase the availability women following childbirth should be able to distinguish of psychological therapies for women experiencing normal emotional and psychological changes from post-natal depression; [104946] significant mental health problems, and to refer women (5) what steps he is taking to increase the ability of for support according to their needs. The Standard also GPs and health visitors to recognise and offer appropriate states that women who require to be admitted to a support to women suffering from post-natal depression; psychiatric hospital following delivery should be admitted and if he will make a statement; [104947] to a specialist psychiatric mother and baby unit. 913W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 914W

It is for local national health service organisations to Prescription Drugs: Shortages commission and deliver local health services, to meet the needs of their local populations. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health Health (1) what representations he has received requesting led the work to produce an innovative e-learning package that his Department undertake an independent survey to support healthcare professionals deliver the evidence of shortages of medicines at local pharmacies; [104938] based Healthy Child programme during pregnancy and the first five years. These includes modules on family (2) if he will commission an independent survey of health, positive parenting and parenting issues and shortage of medicines at local pharmacies. [104939] health promotion. This e-learning is available free to NHS staff. Mr Simon Burns: In the period 1 October 2011 to 19 The Healthy Child programme includes an assessment April 2012, the Department’s ministerial correspondence of the mother’s mental health at six to eight weeks after database indicates four written representations were giving birth and three to four months after giving birth received, all from hon. Members, requesting an independent for identifying depression as part of the universal survey of shortages of medicines at local pharmacies. programme. The National Programme of Health Visiting This figure is approximate, representing minimum figures envisages that the health visitor with specialist training received by the Department. This excludes the current will be the key health professional undertaking the questions from the hon. Member. assessment using the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression We are cautious about placing additional data return Scale during the perinatal period. burdens on pharmacists but we are considering, with stakeholders, taking forward a one-off survey.We continue Prescription Drugs to work with supply chain stakeholders to exchange information and seek solutions to any supply issues so Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for that patients receive the medicines they need. Health what steps his Department is taking to reduce the amount of money spent on prescription drugs in the NHS. [104980] Smoking

Mr Simon Burns: The Government are taking a number Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of measures to: help the national health service spend if he will assess trends in the number of (a) lifetime money efficiently on prescription drugs, while delivering smokers, (b) lifetime non-smokers and (c) ex-smokers good quality patient care. Relevant initiatives in this after 30 years of smoking who live until the age of (i) area include: 50, (ii) 55, (iii) 60, (iv) 65, (v) 70, (vi) 75, (vii) 80, (viii) The Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Prevention medicines 85, (ix) 90, (x) 95 and (xi) 100. [104887] use and procurement work stream supports prescribing services to review and change their practice, to ensure they are prescribing the most cost-effective, clinically appropriate drugs available in a Anne Milton: While the information requested is not treatment category. available centrally, there is published evidence on the The Category M pricing system controls the prices for the effects of smoking on mortality. majority of national health service expenditure on generic medicines. In 2011, the Government published ‘Healthy Lives, It adjusts reimbursement prices in line with market prices each quarter, taking into account the findings of the medicines margins Healthy People: A tobacco control plan for England’. survey, which monitors the amount of margin pharmacies earn The plan cites evidence that suggests that by successfully on the medicines they dispense. From 2004 (the year before quitting smoking, people can avoid smoking-related Category M was introduced) to 2010, the average reimbursement diseases and live longer, whatever their age. price of a generic prescription item dispensed in the community has fallen by 23%. A study published in the British Medical Journal in 2004 found that about half of continuing smokers die The current Pharmaceutical Price Regulation Scheme controls the price of branded medicines supplied to the NHS through a prematurely from their habit, that a quarter of smoking- series of price adjustments, which include a price cut of 3.9% in related deaths occur in the 35 to 69-year-old age range the first year of the agreement, a further price cut of 1.9% in and that life expectancy for smokers is reduced, on January 2010, followed by three successive annual price increases average, by about 10 years (Doll, R., Peto, R., Boreham, of 0.1%, 0.2% and 0.2%. J. and Sutherland, I. (2004) ‘Mortality in relation to smoking: 50 years’ observations on male British doctors’ Prescription Drugs: Prices in British Medical Journal, 328: 1519-1527). Further information on the health risks of smoking Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Health tobacco and the benefits of quitting are summarised by whether the Government intends to publish further the Royal College of Physicians of London in chapter 6 plans for a new value based system for the pricing of of their publication ‘Harm Reduction in Nicotine new medicines in the NHS; and if he will hold a public Addiction: Helping people who can’t quit’ This publication consultation on any such plans. [105400] is available on the web at: http://bookshop.rcplondon.ac.uk/contents/pub234-aafdfc2b- Mr Simon Burns: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer 5c23-4ee3-8f1d-ea18f017edce.pdf I gave on 27 February 2012, Official Report, column ‘Healthy Lives, Healthy People: A tobacco control 117W,to the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline plan for England’ has already been placed in the Library. Latham). 915W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 916W

Speech Therapy: Children Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence does not issue credit cards, but the Department does use the Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Procurement Card (GPC) to purchase low Health when he last met the Royal College of Speech value items and services up to the value of £5,000. The and Language Therapists to discuss funding for speech GPC is a purchasing/payment card and not a credit therapy for children; and if he will make a statement. card. The number of recorded refunds to the Ministry [105239] of Defence for the deliberate misuse of GPCs in financial year 2011-12 is zero. Anne Milton: I refer the hon. Member to the written answer I gave on 15 March 2012, Official Report, column Falkland Islands 381W, to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop). Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the annual cost was on the ongoing Strokes military presence in the Falkland Islands in each year since 2005. [99315]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I (1) what assessment he has made of the role of gave on 14 March 2012, Official Report, columns 324-25W, constraint-induced movement therapy to improve the to the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire recovery rates of people who have suffered a stroke; (Mr Murphy). [104881] (2) how many and what proportion of stroke victims NATO have received constraint-induced movement therapy in each of the last five years. [104882] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much the Government has contributed to Mr Simon Burns: The Department has made no NATO’s (a) civil budget, (b) military budget and (c) assessment of the role of constraint-induced movement Security Investment Programme since 2002. [103920] therapy to improve the recovery rates of people who have suffered a stroke. However, the National Institute Mr Gerald Howarth: The amount contributed by the for Health and Clinical Excellence is currently developing UK to NATO’s civil budget, military budget and the a clinical guideline on stroke rehabilitation. The guideline NATO Security Investment Programme (NSIP) since will consider the role of constraint-induced movement 2002 is as follows: in stroke rehabilitation. The Health and Social Care Hospital Episodes Statistics £ million database does not collect information on the number Military and proportion of stroke victims who receive constraint- Financial year Civil Budget1 Budget2 NSIP3 induced movement therapy. 2002-03 18.2 54.8 40.9 2003-04 18.7 39.9 48.4 2004-05 17.6 61.8 61.1 2005-06 17.8 53.6 64.7 DEFENCE 2006-07 17.3 73.1 50.2 2007-08 25.9 72.3 58.8 Aircraft Carriers 2008-09 25.7 86.5 68.9 2009-10 26.3 95.1 76.3 Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 24.7 100.8 73.3 Defence with which NATO members he expects the 2011-12 22.8 104.3 66.3 UK will have interoperability of carrier strike 1 Funded by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. capability using F-35Cs by 2025. [100679] 2 Funded by the Ministry of Defence. 3 Military Budget & NSIP amounts include costs for NATO Operations Mr Gerald Howarth [holding answer 19 March 2012]: and Missions. We are currently finalising the 2012-13 budget and balancing the Equipment Plan. As part of this process we are reviewing all programmes, including elements of INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT the carrier strike programme. The Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede St Helena: Airports and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), expects to announce the outcome of this process to Parliament soon. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development on what criteria he based Credit Cards his decision to re-open the tendering process for the construction of an airport on St Helena. [104650] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for how many credit card transactions made by Mr Andrew Mitchell: Following the state of paralysis employees of his Department the person making the and indecision under the previous Government the transaction has been asked to refund to the criteria for re-opening the tender process were set out in Department in the latest period for which figures are my written ministerial statement of 22 July 2010, Official available; and if he will make a statement. [103427] Report, column 46WS. 917W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 918W

Turks and Caicos Islands Mr Djanogly: The impact assessment and equality impact assessment published alongside the response to Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for consultation lay out the Government’s assessment of International Development how many persons have the likely costs and benefits of the reforms, with the been arrested in the Turks and Caicos Islands as a result EIA laying out specific impacts on not for profit of the ongoing Special Investigation and Prosecution organisations. Ultimately, impacts arising from the changes Team investigation. [104267] will be driven by behavioural responses, and these cannot be predicted with any real degree of accuracy. We will Mr Bellingham: I have been asked to reply on behalf undertake a post-implementation review of the reforms of the Department for Foreign and Commonwealth between 3-5 years following implementation. Affairs. 13 people have been arrested and charged with Consultants corruption, conspiracy to defraud and money laundering. Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice with reference to the Report by the Comptroller and Auditor General on efficiency and reform in JUSTICE government corporate functions through shared service centres, HC 1790, which management consultants were involved in (a) setting up and (b) operation of the Abu Qatada shared service centre project for his Department. [104023] Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) whether the current legal proceedings undertaken by Mr Kenneth Clarke: The information is as follows: Abu Qatada are funded by legal aid; and what expenditure from the public purse has been (a) incurred to date and (a) Four management consultancies were engaged (b) allocated for this purpose; [105119] for specific activities in the setting up of the shared services centre project. (2) how many (a) successful and (b) unsuccessful applications for legal aid have been made by Abu ACCENTVRE contributed to the development of the HR and Procurement operating models Qatada; what the cost to the public purse has been of any such successful application; and how many such PA CONSULTING contributed to the development of the applications have not yet been costed, by year of finance model and benefits realisation approach application. [105118] THE BOURTON GROUP contributed to the development of staff modelling for the retained finance function Mr Djanogly: The deportation against Abu Qatada is ORION PARTNERS contributed to the development of the still ongoing. It would be wrong of me to comment on business change approach any administrative aspect such as legal aid until the This consultancy was in relation to the NOMS Shared matter has concluded. The Legal Services Commission Service Operation between 2005 and 2008, on which the (LSC) is the body with operational responsibility for Ministry of Justice Shared Service Operation has been legal aid in England and Wales. When it is able to do so, built. the LSC will publish details of the legal aid costs on its (b) No management consultants have been used in website in accordance with requests made under the the operation of the Shared Service Centre project. Freedom of Information Act 2000. Crime: Vehicles Administration of Justice: Secrecy Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for what the highest number of previous convictions was Justice (1) with reference to Appendix J, paragraph 11 for taking a vehicle without consent for an individual of the Justice and Security Green Paper, how many of convicted of an offence of taking a vehicle without the cases referred to concern material related to national consent without being sent to prison in each of the last security; [100537] three years; and how many offences they had committed (2) when he plans to answer question 100537 on the in total at the point of sentence for that offence. [104748] Justice and Security Green Paper; [105289] Mr Blunt: The figures provided cover theft of a Mr Kenneth Clarke: I am sorry for the delay in motor vehicle under section 1 of the Theft Act 1968; responding to the right hon. Member. 24 of the 27 cases unauthorised taking of a motor vehicle under section referred to concern material related to national security. 37 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988; and aggravated taking of a vehicle without consent which includes Citizens Advice Bureau section 12A of the Theft Act 1968. The table shows the highest number of previous Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice convictions for these offences in the years 2008 to 2010 what assessment he has made of the potential effects of who received a sentence other than immediate custody. reductions in funding of (a) Citizens Advice Bureau It also shows for the individual the total number of and (b) other charities providing legal advice under previous cautions and convictions for any offence at the the provisions of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and point of sentence and the number of previous immediate Punishment of Offenders Bill. [105200] custodial sentences for any offence. 919W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 920W

These figures have been drawn from the police’s Mr Blunt: The intention is that resettlement support administrative IT system, the police national computer, should be available to young people from any London which, as with any large scale recording system, is borough leaving custody. Specific details will be confirmed subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. following the appointment of successful bidders for the The figures are provisional and subject to change as European Social Fund Youth Programme. more information is recorded by the police. Highest number of previous convictions for taking a vehicle without Domestic Violence consent, for an individual convicted of this offence without being sent to prison, in England and Wales in the years 2008-10 2008 2009 2010 Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of those charged with offences Number of previous convictions for 81 60 56 related to domestic violence have been (a) brought to taking a vehicle without consent court by the Crown Prosecution Service and (b) Number of previous cautions and 274 214 244 convicted in (i) London and (ii) England in each of the convictions for any offence at time of last five years; and if he will make a statement. [105307] conviction Number of previous immediate 113 77 107 custodial sentences for any offence at The Solicitor-General: I have been asked to reply on time of conviction behalf of the Attorney-General. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) maintains a Daedalus Initiative central record of the outcomes of defendant proceedings. The following below shows the number of defendants Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice prosecuted by the CPS in London and England for whether young offenders selected for the proposed offences of domestic violence in each of the last five successor to the Daedalus initiative will be drawn from years for which figures are available. There has been a the six diamond districts or all London boroughs. significant increase in both the number of convictions [104825] and the conviction rate since 2007-08.

London England Total prosecuted Total convicted Total prosecuted Total convicted Number Number Percentage Number Number Percentage

2007-08 6,688 3,898 58.3 59,898 41,184 68.8 2008-09 7.193 4,452 61.9 62,824 45,349 72.2 2009-10 8,729 5,212 59.7 69,491 49,962 71.9 2010-11 10,570 6,204 58.7 77,007 55,333 71.9 2011-12 10,095 6,326 62.7 73,831 54,025 73.2

Family Courts: Expert Evidence John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will bring forward legislative proposals to enable non-legally qualified people to refer expert John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for reports in family proceedings to regulators. [105163] Justice if he will take steps to increase the transparency of proceedings in the Family Court and Court of Mr Djanogly: The Government accept that there is a Protection particularly in reference to expert reports. need for reform of the use of expert witness evidence in [105146] family proceedings, which is frequently provided by doctors and other health professionals. In their response Mr Djanogly: Any desire to make the family courts or to the Family Justice Review, published on 6 February, the Court of Protection more open must be carefully the Government set out their intention to work with balanced with the parties’ rights to privacy and the expert witness representative bodies and others to improve interests of the children or vulnerable adults involved. the quality of expert witness reports. The Government also intend to legislate to reduce unnecessary use of Accredited media representatives have been able to expert witness reports in care proceedings. attend most family proceedings since April 2009; while There is no requirement for a person to be legally the media may apply to the court to see certain documents, qualified in order for them to make a complaint to they must not publish the content to the public at large health regulators, including the General Medical Council, or any information that would identify the child. Currently, about the activities of a doctor or other registered the courts do not routinely name experts, however each health professional and request that their fitness to decision is made on an individual basis. The Court of practise be investigated. Protection has a general power to authorise publication of information about proceedings and to order a hearing Government: Ministerial Meetings to be held in public and regularly publishes its judgments, which are widely available. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for We are currently considering more ways in which Justice (1) what meetings (a) Ministers, (b) special greater information can be released from the family advisers and (c) officials in his Department have had courts. with Sarah Southern since 12 May 2010; [103468] 921W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 922W

(2) what meetings (a) Ministers, (b) special advisers Licensed Work (matters and (c) officials in his Department have had with Peter Controlled Work funded under a legal aid Cruddas since 12 May 2010. [103469] Category of (legal help including certificate in cases that law advice and assistance) may proceed to court) Mr Kenneth Clarke: Neither I nor my ministerial team or special advisers have held meetings with Peter Housing 117,044 10,796 Welfare 120,020 22 Cruddas or Sarah Southern since 12 May 2010. benefits The Department publishes quarterly meetings between Debt 127,834 345 Ministers and external organisations as well as meetings Employment 25,275 55 between permanent secretaries and external organisations. Education 4,665 139 Quarters from October 2011 will be published in due course. This can be found at: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/corporate-reports Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment he has made of the effect of introducing The Ministry of Justice does not centrally record a telephone gateway for legal aid enquiries on people meetings attended by all officials in the Department. To who are (a) disabled, (b) homeless and (c) cannot collate the remaining information for the time period speak English. [105051] stated would exceed the cost limit for answering parliamentary questions. Mr Djanogly: The Government have complied with Legal Aid Scheme the public sector equality duty under section 149 of the Equality Act 2010 and published an Equality Impact Assessment (both at the time of the consultation on the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State legal aid reforms and at the time of the Government’s for Justice whether his Department has carried out an Response to the consultation) which includes consideration impact assessment on the effects of the reduction in of the mandatory gateway policy and its impact on (a) (b) legal aid funding on Coventry and the west those with protected characteristics. The public sector midlands. [104783] equality duty is a continuing one and we will continue to comply with it. Mr Djanogly: As explained to the hon. Member on 3 February 2011, Official Report, column 942W, there The proposals for the mandatory gateway build on was no intention to conduct impact assessments on the existing Community Legal Advice helpline which specific geographies as part of the impact assessment has been in operation since 2004. The CLA helpline process. The impact assessments and equality impact offers a range of facilities to help people who would assessments published alongside the response to normally struggle to access telephone advice, including consultation lay out the Government’s assessment of disabled people and individuals seeking advice in a the likely costs and benefits of the reforms; however language other then English or Welsh. these do not contain any detailed geographic analysis of impacts. Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Ultimately, impacts arising from the changes will be driven by behavioural responses, and these cannot be Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice predicted with any real degree of accuracy. We will what representations he has received from (a) individuals undertake a post-implementation review of the reforms and (b) organisations on changes to the provision of between three and five years following implementation. legal aid proposed in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. [105202] Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many and what proportion of people living in Mr Djanogly: The Legal Aid Reform consultation (a) the UK, (b) England, (c) the West Midlands and was published in November 2010 and received more (d) Dudley are receiving legal aid for cases concerning than 5,000 responses, from a range of individuals and (i) welfare, (ii) debt, (iii) housing, (iv) employment and organisations. A summary of responses in each particular (v) education; [105050] area is detailed in the Government’s response to (2) how many and what proportion of people living consultation. in (a) the UK, (b) England, (c) the West Midlands and (d) Dudley are receiving legal aid. [105056] Legal Costs

Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice has operational responsibility for legal aid in England how much his Department spent on fees for legal work and Wales only; legal aid in Scotland and Northern in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a Island is a devolved matter. statement. [104577] The LSC funded 2.7 million legal aid acts of assistance in England and Wales in 2010-11. It is not however Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice spent possible to disaggregate the number of acts of assistance approximately £26.77 million on corporate legal fees in in England, the West Midland or Dudley from total the 2010-11 financial year. This covers fees for advice acts of assistance in England and Wales without incurring and representation work paid to solicitors external to disproportionate cost. The number of Acts of Assistance the Department (both the Treasury Solicitor and private in welfare, debt, housing, employment and education firms), Counsel and Parliamentary Counsel. It does not throughout England and Wales during 2010-11 is provided include any operational spend, including that on legal in the following table: aid. 923W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 924W

For the first three quarters of the 2011-12 financial and (e) St Michael and All Angels Academy in each year (April to December 2011), the corporate legal financial year since 2009-10. [104488] spend figure is approximately £15.11 million. Figures for the last quarter (January to March 2012) have not Mr Gibb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The Education yet been finalised. Funding Agency funds academies on an academic year basis. Therefore the following figures are for each academic Members: Constituents year since 2009/10. We do not keep records of payments to academies by Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State other Government Departments. Therefore any funding for Justice what steps he is taking to assist hon. from sources other than this Department is not included Members in their role in assisting constituents with in the figures. casework which relates to legal issues. [104782] Academic year: Mr Djanogly: We are working with a variety of experts 2011/12 and stakeholders, to find innovative ways to provide the 2009/10 2010/11 (planned) practical help and guidance that people need. There are sources of help such as DirectGov, but this is not just Harris Academy at about what Government, or traditional legal and not- Peckham for-profit firms can provide, but alternative sources of Capital 0 0 0 help such as online communities which offer practical Revenue 11,001,611 9,580,298 8,466,387 advice and tips, as well as books and guides. There is also the Community Legal Advice telephone helpline, Harris Academy East and people will still be able access face to face advice in Dulwich—Girls the priority areas of legal aid remaining in scope. Capital 7,716,867 5,286,075 367,741 Revenue 7,060,335 6,491,263 6,188,008

Harris Academy East EDUCATION Dulwich—Boys Capital 20,485,477 2,219,552 0 Academies Revenue 3,741,885 3,983,983 4,394,479

Jonathan Lord: To ask the Secretary of State for Walworth Academy Education how many schools have (a) converted and (Southwark) (b) applied to convert to academy status in (i) Woking Capital 0 0 0 constituency, (ii) Surrey and (iii) England. [103419] Revenue 7,615,743 8,363,506 8,505,591

Mr Gibb: As of 1 April 2012: St Michael and All (i) in Woking, three schools have applied to convert to academy Angels (Southwark) status. Of these, one school has converted (Goldsworth Primary Capital 0 30,475 0 School) and two schools are in the pipeline (New Monument Revenue 7,033,170 6,939,179 3,486,798 School and Broadmere Community Primary School). (ii) in Surrey, 34 schools have applied to convert to academy status. Of these, 22 schools have converted (four primary and 18 CAFCASS secondary), and 12 schools are in the pipeline (three primary, six secondary, and three special schools). Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for (iii) in England, 2,083 schools have applied to convert (767 Education (1) how many family court advisers are primary, 1,244 secondary and 72 special). Of these, 1,421 have employed by the Children and Family Court Advisory converted (441 primary, 952 secondary and 28 special). and Support Service (CAFCASS) in each CAFCASS region; [105104] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the answer of 8 December 2011, (2) whether his Department has issued guidance to Official Report, columns 440-1W, on academies, how the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support many applications for consent for disposal of assets Service on the maximum number of cases to be have been received since May 2010; and how many have allocated to each family court advisor at any one time. been approved. [104992] [105107]

Mr Gibb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: Since May Tim Loughton [holding answer 24 April 2012]: 2010, 17 academies have applied to dispose of land. CAFCASS is an independent body with its own procedures 11 applications have been approved. in place to deal with staff and workloads. The Department for Education does not therefore hold this information Academies: Finance and has not provided guidance on caseloads. Anthony Douglas, the chief executive of CAFCASS, has written Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Education to the hon. Member and a copy of his response has how much funding was received from all Government been placed in the Libraries. sources by (a) the Harris Academy at Peckham, (b) Letter from Anthony Douglas CBE, dated 24 April 2012: the Harris Girls’ Academy, East Dulwich, (c) the Harris I am writing to you in order to provide answers to the Parliamentary Boys’ Academy, East Dulwich, (d) Walworth Academy Questions that you tabled recently: 925W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 926W

105104: To ask the Secretary of State for Education, how many such as those of MIRANDANET and its partners. We family court advisers are employed by the Children and Family encourage opportunities presented by digital technologies Court Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS) in each CAFCASS to improve teaching and deliver education more effectively. region. Please see the following table which indicates the head count We are also providing funding to the Design and for Family Court Advisors (FCAs) in each Cafcass service area Technology Association of a total of £550,000 over the on 23 April 2012. period 2011-13 to deliver high quality continuing professional development to teachers, with a focus on Cafcass service area FCA headcount computer aided design and manufacturing (CAD/CAM) and electronics and communications technology. A1: Tyneside, Northumbria, Cumbria 51 A2: Durham, Teesside and North Yorkshire 52 Curriculum: Languages A3: Greater Manchester 89 A4: South Yorkshire and Humberside 62 A5: West Yorkshire 61 Jonathan Lord: To ask the Secretary of State for A6: Hampshire and the Isle of Wight 37 Education how many pupils took a foreign language at A7: Avon, Gloucestershire and Wiltshire 64 GCSE level in (a) Woking constituency, (b) Surrey A8: Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and Dorset 78 and (c) England in 2011; and what proportion A9: Cheshire, Merseyside and Lancashire 99 achieved grades A* to C. [103415] A10: Shropshire, Staffordshire, Herefordshire 45 and Worcestershire Mr Gibb: The information requested has been provided A11: Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Leicestershire, 77 in the following table for 2010/11 for England, Surrey Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire and for Woking constituency. A12: Birmingham and the Black Country 93 Number and percentage of pupils at the end of Key Stage 41, 2 taking a A13: National Business Centre, Coventry and 26 foreign language GCSE3, 4 and the percentage achieving an A*-C Northamptonshire grade, 2010/115 A14: Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, Hertfordshire, 94 England6 Surrey7 Woking8 Buckinghamshire and Bedfordshire A15: Greater London 157 Number of pupils taking a 217,659 5,337 533 A16: Surrey and Sussex 44 foreign language GCSE A17: Kent 31 Percentage of pupils taking 38.5 49.8 62.9 a foreign language GCSE Total 1,160 Of which: 105107: To ask the Secretary of State for Education, whether Percentage achieving an A*-C 70.5 71.7 78.0 his Department has issued guidance to the Children and Family grade Court Advisory and Support Service on the maximum number of 1 Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. cases to be allocated to each family court advisor at any one time. 2 Figures include all maintained schools, including CTCs and academies. While Cafcass has not issued any guidance to its staff which 3 Figures include French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Modern specifies, the maximum number of cases that may be allocated at Greek, Portuguese, Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Gujarati, Japanese, any one time, we have been operating a trial workload weighting Modern Hebrew, Panjabi, Polish, Russian, Turkish, Urdu, Persian, system, in agreement with our recognised trade union partners, Danish, Hindi, Latin, Classical Greek and Biblical Hebrew. NAPO and Unison. This system is based on ascribing a points 4 Full GCSEs only have been included (Full GCSEs, double awards, ‘weighting’ to the various types and stages of family court cases in accredited international certificates and their predecessor iGCSEs). which Cafcass is involved. The total points value for each member 5 Includes attempts and achievements by these pupils in previous of staff is then given a red/amber/green banding, with the expected academic years. 6 being that staff should generally operate within or close to the England figures are the sum of all local authorities. 7 green ‘expected’ range, rather than remain in the red or amber Local authority figures are based on the local authority maintaining ranges. the school or in the case of CTCs and academies the local authority in which the school is situated. Though the formal trialling of this workload weighting tool 8 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the ended in September 2011, we have continued to monitor the school. workloads of staff using this tool, and we have recently agreed Source: with the unions that a revised version of the tool is to be National Pupil Database (2010/11 revised data) implemented, with effect from 1 June 2012. Free Schools Curriculum: Design Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will estimate the cost to the public purse arising what steps he is taking to support (a) ICT enhanced from independent schools that have adopted or applied learning, (b) MIRANDANET and its partners in the to adopt free school status. [103348] creation of a British Library for ICT enhanced learning and (c) teaching of design technology in schools. Mr Gibb: By extending high quality independent [103293] school places into the state sector, the free schools programme is enabling children to gain access to places Mr Gibb: The Government are supporting ICT in that they could otherwise not afford. Independent schools education by allocating a total of £3.75 million over the becoming free schools receive a grant of £25,000 to period 2011-13 to fund regional centres to share professional contribute towards their legal costs of converting to development opportunities and resources for teachers academy status and may in some cases receive some in the effective use of ICT. These are delivered by the capital funding particularly if that is necessary to allow VITAL consortium, comprising the Open University for expansion. This funding is decided on a case by case and e-Skills UK. The Government welcome developments basis. 927W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 928W

Revenue funding for these schools is an amount per of taking (a) separate and (b) double award science pupil which is equivalent to that received by maintained GCSE on students choosing a science-based career. schools and academies in the same local authority area. [103830] The net additional cost of these additional places will depend on a number of factors, including how quickly a Mr Gibb: The Department has not undertaken any school’s pupil intake changes once they become a free specific assessment of the effect of taking separate and school. double science GCSE on students choosing science Further Education: Finance based careers. However, pupils who take GCSE triple science are more likely to go on to study science at A Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for level and do well. Education what steps he is taking to ensure that Research studies into the benefits of studying science, funding reductions do not disproportionately affect technology, engineering and maths (STEM) subjects specialist 16 to 19 education providers that are not have identified a range of factors that can influence schools. [104463] career choices, including careers lessons and guidance, work experience, the influence of inspirational teachers, Mr Gibb: The budget for specialist provision for and assemblies. There is no clear evidence of the extent young people with a learning difficulty or a disability to which the study of STEM subjects at GCSE level aged 16 to 25 has not been reduced: at £261 million for influences students’ choices to pursue a science based 2012-13 it is higher than in previous years. Decisions on career. placements in post-16 specialist provision are made by local authorities. The unit cost savings announced for 16-19 funding in GCSE: Surrey 2012-13 do not apply to Independent Specialist Providers (ISPs) who are funded via a different system from Jonathan Lord: To ask the Secretary of State for schools and colleges. ISP funding is based on agreed Education how many children were awarded A* to C bands of funding which reflect the full placement costs grades in (a) A-level and (b) GCSE (i) mathematics for each individual attending that provision. and (ii) English in (A) Woking constituency and (B) GCSE: Science Surrey in each of the last five years. [103418]

Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The information requested can be found in Education what assessment he has made of the effect the following tables:-

Numbers and percentages of students aged 16-181, 2, 3 achieving A*-C grades in mathematics4 and English5 A levels6 in Woking constituency7, Surrey local authority8 and England9 Years: 2007-11 Coverage: England Number and percentage of students achieving A*-C A level grades in: 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

Mathematics:

Woking (Number) 30 48 59 82 80 Woking (Percentage) 9.1 11.5 14.6 16.4 17.3

Surrey (Number) 808 863 983 1,074 1,198

Surrey (Percentage) 11.6 12.3 13 13.3 75.3

England (Number) 30,707 33,547 37,605 40,764 42,989

England (Percentage) 10.9 11.4 11.9 11.9 12.8

English:

Woking (Number) 75 80 67 95 104

Woking (Percentage) 22.8 19.1 16.5 19.0 22.5

Surrey (Number) 1,433 1,382 1,436 1,453 1,336

Surrey (Percentage) 20.5 19.8 19.0 18.0 17.1

England (Number) 48,315 50,805 53,509 52,686 52,520

England (Percentage) 17.1 17.2 17.0 15.4 15.6 929W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 930W

1 Percentages are based on all 16-18 year old students in each area. 2 Age at the start of the academic year, for example 31 August 2010 for the 2010/11 academic year. 3 Figures include alt maintained schools (including academies and CTCs) and Further Education (FE) sector colleges. 4 Includes pupils achieving an A*-C grade at A level in at least one of mathematics, pure mathematics, statistics, additional mathematics or further mathematics. 5 Includes pupils achieving an A*-C grade at A level in at least one of English, English language or English literature. 6 Includes cumulative results obtained in the previous academic year. 7 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the school or college. 8 Local Authority figures are based on the Local Authority maintaining the school or college or in the case of CTCs and Academies the local authority in which the school is situated. 9 England figures are the sum of all local authority figures. Source: National Pupil Database (2006/07 to 2009/10 final data, 2010/11 revised data)

Numbers and percentages of pupils at the end of Key Stage 41, 2, 3 achieving A*-C grades in mathematics and English GCSEs4,5 in Woking constituency6, Surrey local authority7 and England8 Years: 2007-11 Coverage: England Number and percentage of KS4 pupils achieving A*-C GCSE grades in: 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

Mathematics: Woking (Number) 510 575 560 602 611 Woking (Percentage) 60.2 64.5 66.7 69.1 72.1

Surrey (Number) 6,646 7,049 6,954 7,356 7,529 Surrey (Percentage) 61.8 64.3 66.2 68.3 70.2

England (Number) 323,044 335,453 339,196 360,532 368,911 England (Percentage) 54.0 56.3 58.8 62.6 65.3

English: Woking (Number) 555 650 604 662 642 Woking (Percentage) 65.5 72.9 719 76.0 75.7

Surrey (Number) 7,202 7,475 7,303 7,888 7,963 Surrey (Percentage) 67.0 68.2 69.5 73.3 74.2

England (Number) 349,086 357,983 358,136 382,870 392,117 England (Percentage) 58.3 60.1 62.1 66.5 69.4 1 Percentages are based on all pupils at end of key stage 4 in each area. 2 Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 3 Figures include all maintained schools (including CTCs and academies). 4 Full GCSEs have been included (Full GCSEs, double awards, accredited international certificates and their predecessor iGCSEs) and AS levels. Figures from 2006/07-2008/09 exclude iGCSEs. 2009/10 and 2010/11 figures include accredited iGCSEs. 5 Including attempts and achievements by these pupils in previous academic years. 6 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the school. 7 Local authority figures are based on the local authority maintaining the school or in the case of CTCs and Academies the local authority in which the school is situated. 8 England figures are the sum of all local authority figures. Source: National Pupil Database (2006/07to 2009/10 final data, 2010/11 revised data)

Human Rights: Children its optional protocols. For instance, supporting the UK’s Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre’s Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State International Child Protection Network in south east Asia. for Education how his Department is ensuring that it We work to ensure that international commitments meets its commitments as outlined in the UN on child rights are fully implemented, whether through Convention on the Rights of a Child. [104298] making the UN and other international bodies more effective, or through projects to support national Mr Jeremy Browne: I have been asked to reply on implementation. behalf of the Department for Foreign and Commonwealth Our embassies and high commissions have a Affairs. responsibility to monitor and raise human rights issues, The British Government are fully committed to the including children’s rights, in their host countries. Where promotion and implementation of children’s rights and possible, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) to improving the situation of children worldwide. In staff take action on individual cases and lobby for addition to our work to engage partners on this issue changes in discriminatory practices and laws. The FCO through bilateral relationships and in multilateral fora, will continue to raise child rights with other Governments we provide financial support to programme work to when necessary. We will also work in the UN and with protect and promote the rights of all children, as set out other international organisations to uphold universal in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and standards. 931W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 932W

National Careers Service are for the end of 2010, show that 97.7% 16-year-olds and 93.2% 17-year-olds were participating in education, Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Education training or employment. with reference to his Department’s further education Schools will be placed under a duty to secure access and skills system reform plan for the National Careers to independent and impartial careers guidance from Service, what mechanisms he envisages for the involvement September. Schools will be expected to work in partnership of local authorities in providing information, advice with external careers providers engaged in delivering and guidance to young people; and how he plans to the National Careers Service or other expert providers, monitor the effectiveness of such involvement. [104624] as appropriate. To assist schools in making informed decisions about which providers to work with, an online Mr Gibb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: Once the register of organisations who have achieved a national new duty on schools to secure access to independent quality standard for careers advice will be available. careers guidance has been commenced in September, Education Destination Measures will show the percentage there will be no expectation that local authorities will of students progressing to further education or training provide a universal careers service. Some local authorities in a school, Further Education or sixth form college, are planning to offer careers guidance services for schools apprenticeship or Higher Education institution. This to purchase and others are supporting schools with the will show how effective schools are in supporting a commissioning process or quality assuring potential successful transition into an appropriate and sustainable providers. course, including through the provision of independent Local authorities continue to have a legal obligation, careers guidance. under section 68 of the Education and Skills Act 2008, Ofsted will carry out a thematic review of careers to encourage, enable and assist the participation of guidance, reporting in summer 2013. This will identify young people in education or training. They are also good practice and establish a baseline for future expected to have arrangements in place to ensure that improvements in the quality of provision. School inspections 16 and 17-year-olds have received an offer of a suitable will also provide an opportunity to consider the extent place in post-16 education or training, and that they are to which pupils have a thorough understanding of the assisted to take up a place. options and challenges facing them as they move through To support the fulfilment of these duties, local authorities school and on to the next stage of their education, and schools will be expected to work in partnership to training and employment. identify those who are in need of targeted support, or who are at risk of not participating post-16. They will Private Education need to agree how these young people can be referred for intensive support, drawn from the range of education John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for and training support services available locally. In some Education how many recipients of the 16 to 19 bursary cases, this provision may include careers advice as a schemes were enrolled at independent schools in means of supporting young people to participate. These academic year 2011-12. [104959] requirements are set out in statutory guidance that was published recently to support schools in preparing for Mr Gibb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: Pupils the introduction of the new careers duty. This is available enrolled at independent schools and whose education is on the Department for Education website at: not state funded are not eligible for support via the http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ 16-19 Bursary Fund. youngpeople/participation/g00205755/statutory-guidance-for- A small number of young people attend independent schools-careers-guidance-for-young-people provision whose education is publicly funded and who It is for local authorities to decide how they should are therefore eligible for support from the bursary fund. meet their statutory responsibilities, taking into account In these cases support is provided via the young person’s the needs of their local communities. Government have home local authority. Data on bursary recipients in allocated over £2 billion to the Early Intervention Grant these circumstances are not held centrally. this year which local authorities have the flexibility to spend as they see fit. The Secretary of State for Education Schools: Holidays has powers to intervene if a local authority is failing to meet its statutory duties. Any case for intervention will Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for be based on clear, outcome-based evidence demonstrating Education what guidance his Department issues on (a) the extent to which young people are participating in students being taken out of school for family holidays education or training, rather than specific inputs such during term time and (b) staff taking holidays during as the way youth support services are organised. term time. [103319]

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The Department’s Keeping Pupil Registers Education how he plans to measure participation levels guidance on applying the Education Pupil Registrations and effectiveness of schools in providing information, Regulations states that time off school for family holidays advice and guidance to young people under the is not a right. Schools have discretion to allow up to 10 National Careers Service. [104625] days absence in a school year for a family holiday if they believe that the circumstances warrant it. It specifies Mr Gibb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The that exceptional circumstances could include service Department for Education publishes an annual estimate personnel and other employees who are prevented from of the proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds continuing in taking holidays outside term time but only if the holiday education, training or employment. Latest figures, which will have minimal disruption to the pupil’s education or 933W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 934W when a family needs to spend time together to support Examination Results in England, 2010/11 (Revised)” each other during or after a crisis. However, the guidance and is available from the Department’s website at: also states that availability of cheap holidays does not www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001055/ constitute exceptional circumstances and that parents index.shtml can be fined for taking their child on holiday during Tables 13 and 14 provide a time series of GCE A and term time without consent from the school. AS level examination entries by subject and the percentage The full guidance can be found at: of pupils achieving each grade from 1995/96 to 2010/11. http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/pupilsupport/behaviour/ The Department also publishes annual statistics on attendance/b0010008/pupil-registration-regulations-and- participation in education; the most recent release is guidance “Participation in Education, Training and Employment Charlie Taylor’s review of school attendance, published by 16-18 Year Olds in England” and is available from on Monday 16 April, recommended that the pupil the Department’s website at: registration regulations should be amended to strengthen www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001011/ the rules on term time holidays, although head teachers index.shtml would still have discretion to grant permission for them Table 1 provides participation rates for 2009 and in exceptional circumstances. The Government have 2010; publications for previous years are available on accepted this recommendation and will bring forward the Department’s Research and Statistics website. changes to these regulations and to the guidance. The Department has recently published a research Decisions about staff leave in maintained schools are report based on detailed analysis of this topic for one at the discretion of the head teacher and governing particular year, in the publication “Subject progression body. The Department does not provide guidance for from GCSE to AS Level and continuation to A Level” staff taking time off during term time but it does available from the Department’s website at: provide a contractual framework for teachers’ pay and conditions in maintained schools within the School www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/ publicationDetail/Page1/DFE-RR195 Teachers’ Pay and Conditions Document. Detailed information for other subjects or years could Schools: Hygiene be provided only at disproportionate cost.

Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether the new School Premises Regulations FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE will require schools to provide a certain number of toilets and washbasins for all pupils. [104236] Ascension Island Mr Gibb: The proposed School Premises Regulations stress that suitable toilet and washing facilities must be Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for provided for the sole use of pupils having regard, among Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information other factors, to their number. They do not give a his Department holds on scientific studies to determine specific ratio of fittings to numbers of pupils. the status of fish stocks around Ascension Island; and if he will take steps to ensure that fishing in those Schools: Sports waters is sustainable. [104271] Mr Bellingham: Fisheries policy is the responsibility Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for of Overseas Territory Governments. Ascension Island (a) (b) Education how many schools in Dartford, Kent Government have been licensing fishing activity, as part (c) and the South East are participating in the School of a pilot scheme, since 2010. Stocks caught by vessels Games scheme. [105100] licensed under the pilot scheme are already managed under the purview of the International Commission for Hugh Robertson: I have been asked to reply on behalf the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas (ICCAT) who assess, of the Department of Culture, Olympics, Media and and provide advice on, the status of those stocks on an Sport. annual basis. We are committed to working with Ascension Registration for the first year of the School Games Island Government, and through the UKOT membership officially closed on 31 January. At that point, 347 (50%) of ICCAT, to continue to strengthen management of schools in Kent had signed up and 1863 (47%) of arrangements to ensure that fishing in Ascension waters schools in the south east had signed up. We are unable is carried out in an informed, sustainable way. to disaggregate the data for Dartford. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Sixth Form Education Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to ensure that licensed fishing boats in the John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for maritime zone of Ascension Island follow regulations Education how many students, by subject, continued and avoid by-catch. [104272] their education at sixth-form level in each year from 2004 to 2011. [104957] Mr Bellingham: Fisheries protection is the responsibility of Overseas Territory Governments. Ascension Island Mr Gibb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The Government have been licensing fishing activity, as part Department’s annual statistics provide information on of a pilot scheme, since 2010. Stocks caught by vessels the subjects studied by pupils aged 16-18, the most licensed under the pilot scheme are already managed recent release is “GCE/Applied GCE A/AS and Equivalent under the purview of the International Commission for 935W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 936W the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas (ICCAT) and vessels in the consular service on dealing with British citizens should be subject to the conservation measures agreed who experience mental health problems whilst abroad. through ICCAT. We are committed to working with [105077] Ascension Island Government, and through the UKOT membership of ICCAT, to continue to strengthen Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth management arrangements in Ascension waters. Office (FCO) is committed to delivering high quality support to British nationals overseas particularly the Atlantic Ocean Islands most vulnerable. All front line overseas staff undertake mandatory Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for training designed to give them the relevant skills and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the flag state knowledge to provide appropriate consular support in a was of each of the vessels licensed to fish in the waters range of circumstances. Training covers customer care of (a) Ascension Island and (b) South Georgia in (i) and welfare issues with particular attention to the key each of the years from 2007 to 2011 and (ii) 2012 to principles of the Mental Capacity Act. Both knowledge date; and what fish in each case they were licensed to of what practical help the FCO and partners can provide catch. [104273] and the skills staff must use when dealing with individuals in difficult circumstances are tested to ensure all staff Mr Bellingham: Details of the licenses sold by Ascension meet the required standard. Island Government and the Government of South Georgia Consular staff have access to a social work adviser to and the South Sandwich islands are as follows: provide support and help in addition to practical assistance (a) Ascension Island from the following non-governmental organizations (NGOs) 2007: No licenses issued which we part fund; Heathrow Travel Care, Gatwick 2008: No licenses issued Travel Care, Manchester Airport Chaplaincy. The FCO 2009: No licenses issued regularly interacts with Mental Health NGOs including 2010: 47 licenses have been sold. Flag states: Taiwan, Philippines, Mind, Rethink, Sane and the Befrienders international Korea, China and Japan network. 2011: 58 licenses have been sold. Flag states: Taiwan, Korea, Diplomatic Service Japan, Philippines, Belize 2012: 22 licenses have been sold to date. Flag states: Taiwan, China, Japan Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what language (b) South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands training is given to British Embassy personnel before 2007: 19 licenses have been sold. Flag states: UKOT, Chile. they are posted abroad. [105231] Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Republic of Korea, South Africa, Spain, Uruguay Mr Bellingham: All UK-based staff appointed to 2008: 25 licenses have been sold. Flag states: UKOT, Chile, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Republic of Korea, Russia, overseas positions designated as “speaker slots” are South Africa, Spain, Uruguay entitled to receive full time language training in the UK and overseas before starting in post. The training is 2009: 24 licenses have been sold. Flag states: UKOT, Chile, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Republic of Korea, Russia, South tailored to ensure these officers can carry out their work Africa, Spain, Uruguay effectively in the foreign language, for example to negotiate 2010: 18 licenses have been sold. Flag states: UKOT, Chile, with foreign government counterparts, or speak on Japan, New Zealand, Norway, South Africa, Spain, Uruguay overseas media channels. Staff posted overseas to roles 2011: 18 licenses have been sold. Flag states: UKOT, Chile, where there is not an essential language requirement, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Republic of Korea, Uruguay but where the native language is not English, receive 2012: 12 licenses have been sold to date. Flag states: UKOT, some optional training to provide basic language skills Chile, New Zealand, Spain geared towards living and working in that country. On Ascension, licenses are issued for fishing by floating Embassies long line only with the targeted species being tuna and tuna-like species, e.g. bigeye, yellowfin and albacore tuna, swordfish and marlin, which are managed under Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for the purview of the International Commission for the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) how much the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas. British embassy in Germany spent on hospitality for incoming (a) UK delegations and (b) foreign On South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands delegations in each of the last three years; [103265] licenses are issued for fishing of toothfish, icefish, and krill. In addition, a limited crab fishery (now closed) has (2) how much the British Embassy in France spent operated in 2010 and 2011 with a single Russian-flagged on hospitality for incoming (a) UK delegations and vessel (not included in the above figures). The fisheries (b) foreign delegations in each of the last three years; are operated in compliance with, and exceed, those [103266] standards set by the Commission for the Conservation (3) how much the British Embassy in Belgium spent of Antarctic Marine Living Resources. on hospitality for incoming (a) UK delegations and (b) foreign delegations in each of the last three years; British Nationals Abroad: Mental Illness [103267] (4) how much the British Embassy in the US spent Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for on hospitality for incoming (a) UK delegations and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what resources (b) foreign delegations in each of the last three years. and training his Department provides to staff working [103268] 937W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 938W

Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office announced at their inaugural conference on 5 March provides hospitality for business, civil society, parliamentary that they expect to have both land and maritime national and Government delegations in the normal course of standards in place by the end of 2012. our diplomatic activity, to help us achieve British Government objectives. We have not provided a break-down Iraq of hospitality by nationality of guest or delegation as to do so would incur disproportionate cost. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for The following table sets out overall spend on hospitality Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent by country in each of the last three financial years. The representations he has received from representatives of figures do not include spending by UK missions to the Assyrian community in the UK on the situation in international organisations in these countries. All figures Iraq. [104731] except for Washington include business hospitality spend for subordinate posts. The financial year 2009-10 figure for Paris includes spend on commercially sponsored Alistair Burt: Foreign and Commonwealth Office events, whose costs were reimbursed to the embassy officials in Iraq and London regularly meet representatives separately. of Iraqi communities, including from the Assyrian and Christian communities. On 7 February I met with Assyrian £ Iraqi MP Imad Yokhanna Yaqo Alemadi, as part of a Embassy 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 delegation from Iraq’s Foreign Affairs Committee. The security situation for Christians has generally Berlin 130,827.81 152,968.44 106,193.26 improved over the past 12 months, although the situation Brussels 34,158 21,157 21,210 facing Iraq’s ethnic and religious groups remains precarious. Paris 308,080 175,648 180,080 I raised the issue with the Iraqi Minister for Human Washington 184,293 165,177 185,326 Rights on 12 January. He assured me that Iraq took the issue very seriously and agreed that Christians were an Human Rights indigenous population to Iraq and should be protected.

Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Israel: Palestinians and Commonwealth Affairs who will represent the UK at the Universal Periodic Review; and if he will make a Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [104297] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what representations he has made to the Israeli Government Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have been asked to reply on on the detention of Palestinian children in Israeli behalf of the Justice Department. prisons; [104414] My noble Friend, Lord McNally, Minister of State (2) what representations he has made to the Israeli for Justice, will lead the UK’s delegation to Geneva for Government on the use of solitary confinement for its second universal periodic review on 24 May 2012. child prisoners. [104416]

Indian Ocean: Shipping Alistair Burt: We remain concerned about the treatment of Palestinian children under the Israeli military court system. We continue to lobby the Israeli authorities for Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign improvements, including a reduction in the number of and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects to achieve arrests that occur at night, an end to shackling and the full accreditation of security companies and UK introduction of audio-visual recording of interrogations. flagged ships in the Indian Ocean. [105041] We welcomed Israel’s decision of 4 October 2011 to Mr Bellingham: The Prime Minister announced on raise the age of legal majority for Palestinian children in 30 October that armed guards would be allowed on the Israeli military justice system, a step we had advocated. UK-flagged ships in the high risk, area off the coast of I raised the implementation of this decision with the Somalia. Privately contracted armed security personnel Israel ambassador on 23 February. (PCASPs) on UK-flagged vessels currently need to In addition to our lobbying of the Israeli authorities, comply with interim guidance published by the Department the UK is supporting research into this issue by leading for Transport in December 2011 and carry the relevant UK and international lawyers; a report is due to be Home Office licenses. They will be expected to be issued in April. We have also funded the work of Defence certified as meeting the relevant national or international for Children International and No Legal Frontiers on standards when this becomes possible. the rights of Palestinian child detainees. As I announced in a written ministerial statement on 21 June 2011, Official Report, column 7WS, we have Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for appointed ADS (Aerospace, Defence and Security) as Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations our trade association partner in the development and he has made to the Israeli government on recent trends implementation of UK national standards for land and in the number of Palestinians detained without charge maritime based private security companies (PSCs). ADS in the last year. [104415] have established a sub-group, the Security in Complex Environments Group (SCEG) which is currently drafting Alistair Burt: I have regularly raised our concerns standards for maritime PSCs and expects to submit about the use of administrative detention by Israel, specific proposals to Ministers shortly. The SCEG including with the Israeli ambassador to London on 939W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 940W

23 February, the Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister on The APPF is also currently conducting a lessons 27 February and the Israeli Deputy Prime Minister on learned review from its first year in operation and 19 March. recently completed a review of its political participation We continue to encourage the Israeli authorities to projects in Egypt and Tunisia. Recommendations from comply with their obligations under international law, these assessments will be applied to the programme as it including in their policies on detention and the treatment moves forward. of Palestinian prisoners. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the application Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations criteria are for funding from his Department’s Arab he has made to the Israeli Government on the revocation Partnership Programme; and how those criteria are of residence permits from Palestinians in east Jerusalem. publicised. [104407] [104417] Alistair Burt: The criteria for funding by the Arab Alistair Burt: We have many concerns about Israeli Partnership Participation Fund (APPF) are available actions in east Jerusalem, which we consider to be on the FCO’s website: occupied territory. These concerns include the removal http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/mena/uk-arab- of residency rights from Palestinians; the evictions of partnership Palestinians and demolition of Palestinian property; alongside the programme strategy, bidding forms and the construction of illegal Israeli settlements; possible related guidance. unilateral changes to the municipal borders; and severe Bids to the APPF are assessed according to the difficulties of access to Jerusalem for Palestinians from following criteria: their relevance to foreign policy priorities; the west bank or even for those residents of Jerusalem their relevance to an embassy’s overarching programme who live beyond the separation barrier. objectives and country programme strategies; strength Through our embassy in Tel Aviv, we have lobbied of rationale presented for the project intervention; delivery the appropriate authorities on these issues. We continue of value for money; evidence of local demand/need; the to work closely with the EU and other international viability of the project, including the capacity of the partners and to call on Israel to ease restrictions on implementing organisation(s); strength of project design, movement and access. including clear, achievable objectives/outputs; extent of consideration of inclusivity in the project approach Legal Costs (including gender, youth and human rights); extent to which the project’s outcomes are sustainable beyond Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the life of the project; whether the project meets Official and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department Development Assistance criteria (with some funding spent on fees for legal work in (a) 2010-11 and (b) available for non ODA countries). 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [104565] Piracy Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has spent the following on fees for legal work: Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11: £1,301,144.52 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what consideration 2011-121: £1,292,347.78 his Department has given to the use of lasers as a 1 The figure for 2011-12 is for the period up to and including deterrent to maritime piracy. [104263] February 2012 These figures reflect the expenditure necessary to Mr Bellingham: We have not given this any consideration. support the range of the FCO’s requirements in the UK and overseas. Public Consultation Middle East Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs which of his Department’s Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what follow-up consultations have been externally verified since 2007; assessment is made of the projects funded by his for what reason and by whom such verification was carried out; and what the cost to the public purse was Department’s Arab Partnership Programme. [104406] of such verification. [104100] Alistair Burt: All projects supported through the FCO-led Arab Partnership Participation Fund (APPF) Mr Lidington: Formal verification of compliance with must provide quarterly reporting on progress, risks and the various obligations set out under the HM Government financial spend; and in addition a comprehensive report Code of Practice on Consultation is a matter that is on impact achieved once the project has been completed. normally handled internally, in accordance with the An independent assessment is also required on all completed obligation under the code to monitor the effectiveness projects over the value of £500,000. At a strategic level, of consultation exercises. the APPF is reviewed by the Department’s Programme The Overseas Territories (OT) public consultation Evaluation Board. This board is held twice a year and exercise was carried out on behalf of the Department assesses all strategic policy programmes, to give assurances by an independent survey company—this was to gauge to Ministers on programmes’ policy delivery, impact, public opinion/views on all aspects of the UK/OT and value for money. relationship. 941W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 942W

It is normal practice for my department to publish all captured by pirates off the Somalia coast in each of the non-confidential responses to formal written consultation last five years. [104259] exercises, consistent with the code. Publication of consultation responses promotes transparency and provides Mr Bellingham: We do not have an exact figure for the opportunity for external scrutiny of the consultation the number of British nationals captured by pirates off process independent of Government. the Somalia coast in each of the last five years, as not every case may be brought to our attention. But our Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign records do show the following number of such cases: and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department accepts anonymous contributions to its consultations. Total [104102] 2007 0 Mr Lidington: Yes. 2008 2 2009 2 The Foreign and Commonwealth Office complies 2010 0 with the consultation code of practice, paragraph 6.1 of 2011 1 which states ‘All responses (both written responses and those fed in through other channels such as discussion South Sudan forums and public meetings) should be analysed carefully’. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Somalia Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the operating Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for mandate for the UN mission in South Sudan. [104651] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his counterparts in other Mr Bellingham: The UN Mission in South Sudan has countries on piracy off the coast of Somalia. [104257] made a reasonable start, operating under an extremely broad mandate and in challenging circumstances. The Mr Bellingham: Piracy is an affront to the rule of mission has so far been focused on scaling up operations international law. Britain and regional partners are with a number of logistical and security constraints and committed to breaking the piracy business cycle and we is not yet fully deployed. It now needs to focus on speak regularly with our international partners. delivery of its mandate and to prioritise activity accordingly. I engaged with many of my counterparts at the UK funding for UNMISS. as for all UN peacekeeping Somalia Conference in London on 23 February. The missions, comes from our assessed contribution to the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth UN Peacekeeping budget. We rigorously assess the Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond budgets and mandates of all UN Peacekeeping missions (Yorks) (Mr Hague), also presented the conclusions of on a regular basis. the Conference to the Foreign Affairs Council in March, Britain has condemned recent provocative and and there have since been follow up discussions on irresponsible acts by the militaries of both South Sudan counter piracy with Kenya. and Sudan which threaten economic stability and the I will continue to be in contact with a number of livelihoods of ordinary people and will likely to further regional counterparts. By working together we can maintain increase the pressure on the UN mission. tough arrangements to catch, try and imprison pirates and to continue to develop regional maritime capacity, Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for within Somalia and the wider region. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he has taken to help restart oil production in South Sudan. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for [104652] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made of the cost of piracy off the coast of Somalia Mr Bellingham: I, and other Ministers from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for to UK insurance companies. [104258] International Development, have made representations to the South Sudanese Government, urging it to reverse Mr Bellingham: It has been estimated by One Earth its decision to cease oil production, and highlighting the Future that maritime piracy could be costing the global impact on the South Sudanese economy. We are also economy up to US$12 billion a year, both directly and urging the Governments of South Sudan and Sudan, indirectly such as through increased insurance premiums. including on arrangements for the export of oil, to They estimated that the two major forms of piracy negotiate their differences peacefully under the auspices related insurance, war risk and kidnap and ransom of the African Union High-Level Implementation Panel. policies, cost shipping companies up to $635 million in 2011. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Owing to the nature of the manner by which insurance Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment premiums are calculated, however, it is not possible for he has made of the effectiveness and value for money these figures to be translated into an accurate representation of the UN mission in South Sudan. [104654] of the cost to UK insurance companies. Mr Bellingham: The UN Mission in South Sudan has Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for made a reasonable start, operating under an extremely Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information broad mandate and in challenging circumstances. The his Department holds on the number of UK citizens mission has so far been focused on scaling up operations 943W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 944W with a number of logistical and security constraints and and with Foreign Ministers from other EU member is not yet fully deployed. It now needs to focus on states. We regularly make clear that it is right to use the delivery of its mandate and to prioritise activity accordingly. collective weight of the EU and member states in support UK funding for UNMISS, as for all UN peacekeeping of shared foreign policy interests, such as Burma or missions, comes from our assessed contribution to the Iran, but the European External Action Service should UN Peacekeeping budget. We rigorously assess the support and complement, not replace, member state budgets and mandates of all UN Peacekeeping missions diplomatic services. on a regular basis. Britain has condemned recent provocative and irresponsible acts by the militaries of both South Sudan Tristan da Cunha and Sudan which threaten economic stability and the livelihoods of ordinary people and will likely to further Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for increase the pressure on the UN mission. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many commercial fishing licences were sold in Tristan da Sri Lanka Cunha in (a) each of the years from 2007 to 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; what the monetary value was of such Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign licences; what the flag state was of each of the licensed and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of vessels; and what fish they were licensed to catch. 16 April 2012, Official Report, column 197W, on Sri [104270] Lanka, whether the six returnees are (a) still in custody and (b) have been convicted; and if he will make a Mr Bellingham: Tristan da Cunha’s sustainable lobster statement. [104338] fishery is the mainstay of the island’s economy. It is operated by the South African firm Ovenstone as sole Alistair Burt: We do not routinely monitor individual concessionaires. Aside from the lobster fishing, Tristan unsuccessful asylum seekers once they are removed issued one licence to a Spanish flagged vessel in 2007 from the UK. They are, by definition, foreign nationals and one to a South African in 2008. These licenses who have been found as a matter of law not to need the brought in a total of £29,000 in revenue and the fish UK’s protection. Nor do we assume any responsibility caught were Bluenose, Alfonsino and Jacopever. for monitoring judicial proceedings against foreign nationals Fisheries policy is the responsibility of Overseas Territory in their own country. Governments. But we are committed to working with Tristan, and all the Overseas Territories, to ensure a St Helena clear and sustainable framework for the management of its natural resources. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on the promotion of independent media in St Helena; Turks and Caicos Islands and if he will make a statement. [104256]

Mr Bellingham: Media policy is a responsibility for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the St. Helena Government. I am aware of the decision, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his by the democratically elected representatives on St Helena, Department is taking to expedite the transfer of to establish a new community-owned media organisation legislative power from the Governor of the Turks and to rationalise services and better meet the community’s Caicos Islands (TCI) to TCI citizens. [104249] needs. I understand that the St Helena Government has initially funded the launch of this community-owned Mr Bellingham: In the joint written ministerial statement and operated media service but that its management I issued with the Minister of State for International and editorial control are completely independent of Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Government. I would encourage all Overseas Territories Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan), on 9 December Governments to promote independent media where it is 2010, Official Report, columns 40-41WS, we set out the viable. milestones that we judged would have to be met before elections could take place in the Turks and Caicos Treaty of Lisbon Islands. Our statement on 30 January 2012, Official Report¸ columns 34-36WS, gave our current assessment of progress made towards achieving the milestones. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Good progress has been made, although there is still Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent much to be done. discussions he has had with the President of the European Council on foreign policy implications of the A new constitution order was laid before Parliament Lisbon treaty. [104501] in July 2011. New ordinances on the electoral process and the regulation of political parties are being prepared. Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and A delegation from the Westminster Foundation for Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Democracy, led the right hon. Member for Warley for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has not had any (Mr Spellar) and my right hon. Friend the Member for recent discussions with the President of the European Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), visited the Turks and Council on the foreign policy implications of the Lisbon Caicos Islands in March to engage with the Turks and treaty. However, he regularly discusses the EU’s role in Caicos Islands political parties and community external affairs with the EU High Representative for representatives on the scope and content of the draft Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton, elections ordinances. 945W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 946W

The Turks and Caicos Islands Government have begun expenditure significantly in order to address its structural a programme which will enable Turks and Caicos Islanders deficit and put it on course for a sustainable fiscal to both verify their status and register for elections. surplus in financial year 2012-13. In view of the exceptional situation, the Secretary of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many hon. Friend Member for Richmond (Yorks (Mr Hague), residence permits have been issued by the Turks and agreed to make a further grant of £3.8 million in Caicos Islands Administration in each of the last five financial year 2011-12 to reimburse the Turks and Caicos years. [104264] Islands Government for a proportion of the costs associated with the continuing criminal investigation and associated Mr Bellingham: The British Government do not have prosecutions. The Secretary of State also approved an information on this matter which is a responsibility of additional £745,000 contribution to the cost of setting the Turks and Caicos Islands Government. These figures up a suitable courtroom for the trials which will be held have been requested and I will forward them to my hon. as a result of the investigation. Friend as soon as they are received. In addition to these grants, the British Government spent approximately £86,000 on costs in the UK relating Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Special Investigation and Prosecution Team in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many work financial year 2011-12. permits were issued by the Turks and Caicos Islands administration in each of the last five years. [104265] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish a Mr Bellingham: The British Government do not have list of assets reclaimed by the Turks and Caicos Islands information on this matter which is a responsibility of special investigation and prosecution team to date. the Turks and Caicos Islands Government. These figures [104269] have been requested and I will forward them to my hon. Friend as soon as they are received. Mr Bellingham: Confiscation of the proceeds of crime can only occur post conviction. The special investigation Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for and prosecution team carefully considers the need to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what future funding restrain assets where there is evidence of a risk of from the public purse will be provided to the Turks and dissipation. To date this has only been deemed necessary Caicos Islands Special Investigation Prosecution Team. in the case of the former Premier, Michael Misick. [104266] It is also possible in appropriate circumstances to settle an investigation into suspected criminal conduct Mr Bellingham: The British Government will consider by agreeing a civil recovery order. This has been done carefully any requests for further assistance. with one suspect, who has paid the sum of US$1.25 million. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for There is a separate civil recovery work stream. The Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what spending has civil recovery team has made in excess of 40 separate been incurred on the Turks and Caicos Islands (TCI) recoveries of money and/or land. The monetary element Special Investigation and Prosecution Team by the (a) is more than $12 million including payments already Government and (b) TCI government. [104268] made, judgments obtained and still to be collected and agreements to pay. More than 900 acres of land have Mr Bellingham: In 2009, Sir Robin Auld’s Commission also so far been returned to the Crown as a result of the of Inquiry report concluded that there was a high civil recovery team’s work. The value of the land recovered probability of systemic corruption in the former Turks so far is many tens of millions of dollars. Many other and Caicos Islands Government. cases are underway and, by the end of the programme, the team expects to have recovered land worth hundreds I am pleased to be able to inform the House that the of millions of dollars for the people of the TCI as well special investigation into issues raised by this report is as significant further amounts of cash or other assets. making good progress and 13 people have been charged with corruption, conspiracy to defraud and money United Arab Emirates laundering. In financial year 2010-11 the Foreign and Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Office made a discretionary grant of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when the next £6.6 million to reimburse the Turks and Caicos Islands meeting of the UAE-UK Taskforce is scheduled to take Government for some of the exceptional costs of the place; and what items will be discussed. [104404] criminal investigation, including the work of the Special Investigation and Prosecution Team, and related civil Alistair Burt: We do not yet have a confirmed date or recovery and police work. agenda for the next UK-UAE Taskforce. However, In financial year 2011-12 the Turks and Caicos Islands UK-UAE Taskforce meetings are held on a quarterly Government report that expenditure for the Special basis and the next one is scheduled to take place in Abu Investigation and Prosecution team was US$7.6 million. Dhabi in either June or July 2012. The taskforce covers This represents over 4% of expenditure and a significant issues across the whole spectrum of the bilateral agenda funding challenge for the Turks and Caicos Islands including co-operation on defence; international Government. The Turks and Caicos Islands Government development; education; trade and investment, and regional has introduced a range of new taxes and cut overall issues. 947W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 948W

Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many meetings of the UAE-UK Taskforce have taken place in the last Addison Lee 12 months. [104405] Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Alistair Burt: Three meetings of the UK-UAE Taskforce Innovation and Skills what meetings (a) Ministers, (b) have taken place since 18 April 2011 They took place on special advisers and (c) officials in his Department 22 June 2011, 30 October 2011 and 21 March 2012. have had with John Griffin of Addison Lee since 12 May 2010. [104692] Vacancies Norman Lamb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: On Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Ministers, I refer the hon. Member to the quarterly and Commonwealth Affairs how many job vacancies publication of meetings between Ministers and external there were for (a) staff posts and (b) senior civil service organisations. Details from October 2011 onwards will posts in his Department on 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 be published in due course. and (iii) 2012; and if he will make a statement. [104564] According to records, no Special Adviser in this Department has met with John Griffin since 12 May 2010. Mr Bellingham: We are unable to provide data on the On officials, I refer the hon. Member to the quarterly number of vacancies in the Foreign and Commonwealth publication of meetings between the permanent secretary Office (FCO) over the stated period as our internal and external organisations. Details from October 2011 appointments process does not collect the data in this onwards will be published in due course. format and therefore collating this would require a This information can be seen on the Department’s substantial amount of research which could be carried website: out only at disproportionate cost. http://www.bis.gov.uk/transparency/staff The FCO has set a target of saving £100 million per year in administration spending, of which UK based paybill forms a significant element, by the end of the Companies: United Arab Emirates current comprehensive spending review (CSR) period. We are rigorously adhering to the Government-wide Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for recruitment freeze with external recruitment only allowed Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has in exceptional business-critical cases and, as a result, made of the number of United Arab Emirates companies over the same CSR period, we expect UK based staff that are based in the UK. [104410] strength to reduce from the current level of around 4,600. Mr Prisk: Figures published by the Office for National Statistics in “Foreign ownership of businesses in the Zimbabwe UK, 2010” show that as at March 2010, there were around 70 enterprises in the UK which were identified as having ultimate ownership in the United Arab Emirates. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Since the ultimate ownership of many businesses is not Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the known, this figure should be taken as a minimum rather Government is taking to increase the political freedom than an absolute. of people in Zimbabwe. [105159] EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Aviation Mr Bellingham: The British Government are committed to supporting the aspirations of the Zimbabwean people for a peaceful, prosperous and democratic Zimbabwe. Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, We are working with reformers and international partners Innovation and Skills what support his Department is in support of South African Development Community considering providing to the aviation industry following efforts to create a process leading to credible and properly the (a) introduction of the EU Emissions Trading monitored elections. Our aid programme to Zimbabwe, System scheme and (b) inclusion of aviation in the which increased to £83 million this financial year, aims scheme. [103705] to help deliver better services and improved governance. Britain is supporting the constitutional review process Mr Prisk: Following the inclusion of aviation into and has contributed with other, donors to UN funding. the EU Emissions Trading System, airlines will receive This process has provided the opportunity for many free, tradeable allowances covering a certain level of Zimbabweans to have a say in Zimbabwe’s overarching CO2 emissions from their annual flights. legal framework and will hopefully result in a new constitution which better protects their human rights. It Exports will be for Zimbabweans to decide upon the final document in a referendum. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, We are also working with civil society organisations Innovation and Skills with reference to the British Chambers to support victims of violence, increase levels of access of Commerce survey entitled Exporting is Good for to independent information and the ability of Zimbabweans Britain: skills, what steps his Department plans to take to engage in key decision making processes such as to address the skills gap and shortage of knowledge of elections. British exporters. [104478] 949W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 950W

Norman Lamb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The Higher Education Government welcomes the British Chambers of Commerce’s (BCC) survey “Exporting is good for Britain Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for and exporters need skills”. The Government’s ambition Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer is to have a world-class skills base that provides a of 8 March 2012, Official Report, column 858W, on consistent source of global competitive advantage returning higher education, what information higher education the economy to sustainable growth. providers are required to submit in order to meet the Businesses are in the best position to understand criteria included in a due diligence check. [104348] what skills, including those for exporting, are required for their sector or industry. So we are making sure that Mr Willetts: When undertaking a due diligence review the skills system is not led by Government, but by an initial review is undertaken of the publicly available employers and individuals themselves. As a Government, information on the organisations and their directors. In we are empowering them with the support and information most cases further information is requested from the they need to make confident choices and shape the organisations such as more detailed accounts and system to deliver. clarification of company structures for example. This Through the UK Trade and Investment (UKTI), the review focuses on financial sustainability and governance Government helps UK based companies gain the skills arrangements. needed to succeed in the global economy through a From 1 April 2012 we have introduced a new form to range of programmes, under their helping your business gather information from new providers whose applications grow internationally trade development product. have been submitted to the Department by the Student Loans Company. A copy of the form will be placed in Excellent leadership and management skills lie at the the Library of the House. heart of outstanding business performance, so we have prioritised funding for these skills for small and medium Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for sized enterprises who demonstrate the potential for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for growth. Building their capability and confidence to the introduction of private funding arrangements into move and expand into the export market. Aligned with the provision of higher education. [105338] leadership and management support, business coaching for growth will provide strategic advice, coaching mentoring and access to knowledge networks to help them achieve Mr Willetts: Higher education has always been funded their growth potential. from a mix of public and private sources. This will remain the case. As set out in our White Paper ‘Students at the Heart of the System’, published on 28 June 2011, Government Departments: Procurement we want to expand the flexibility for employers and charities to offer sponsorship for individual places outside of student number controls, provided they do not create Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for a cost liability for Government. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to meet the Government’s target that 25 per cent of Imports: Raw Materials Government contracts should be awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises. [105156] Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply on behalf of is taking to reduce the UK’s import dependency in the the Cabinet Office. area of non-energy, non-agricultural raw materials. [104173] A year ago, the Government launched a package of measures to increase opportunities for small and medium- Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation sized enterprises to supply to Government. One year and Skills and the Department for Environment, Food on, central Government’s direct spend with SMEs is on and Rural Affairs have recently published a “Resource track to more than double from £3 billion to £6 billion Security Action Plan: Making the most of valuable against a backdrop of a reduction in overall Government materials” to address rising concerns about the security spending. of supply of key metals and minerals essential to the However, we recognise there is still more to do to UK economy and the development of low carbon reach our aspiration that 25% of the value of Government technologies. The plan provides a framework for business contracts should be awarded to small and medium-sized action to address these resource risks and sets out high enterprises and we recently announced a further set of level actions for Government and business to address steps that we are taking. resource concerns. Full details of all the measures we are putting in Legislation place, and of our progress to date, can be found on the Cabinet Office website: Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/news/government-opens-contracts- small-business Business, Innovation and Skills what recent representations he has received for inclusion in the future legislative www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/news/better-deal-smaller-businesses programme in policy areas for which his Department is www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/making- responsible; and which proposals his Department is government-business-more-accessible-smes-one-year considering. [105337] 951W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 952W

Norman Lamb: The Department receives numerous www.mentorsme.co.uk representations relating to the policy areas that we are with over 15,000 experienced business people who want to help responsible for and some of these will include legislative mentor those starting out. proposals. The Government’s legislative proposals will Help with raising finance through continuation of the Enterprise be set out in the Queen’s Speech on 9 May. Finance Guarantee scheme which has helped thousands of businesses each year to access the funding they need to start and grow their Manufacturing Industries: Greater London businesses. And support to help businesses to help themselves when trying to access finance, through our ‘Finance Fitness’ Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, campaign. Innovation and Skills how many manufacturing firms are registered in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency Official Secrets and (b) the London borough of Bexley. [104455] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: From the Interdepartmental Business Register Business, Innovation and Skills whether any person (IDBR, December 2011), the number of manufacturing employed by (a) his Department, (b) the agencies and enterprises (SIC2007 section C) in: non-departmental public bodies for which his Department (a) the Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency is 145; and is responsible and (c) any private firms contracted by (b) the London borough of Bexley is 360. his Department is bound by any part of the Official Counts are rounded to the nearest five enterprises Secrets Act. [104835] and the IDBR only covers enterprises either registered for PAYE or VAT (above a £73,000 annual turnover Norman Lamb: People employed by the Department threshold). of Business, Innovation and Skills and its executive agencies are bound by the Official Secrets Act, as are New Businesses: Construction those in private firms contracted by the Department and its executive agencies (as defined by sections 12(1) Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for and 12(2) of the Official Secrets Act 1989.) The Department Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department does not hold records on non-departmental public bodies. is taking to increase the number of start-ups by women in the construction industry. [103832] Postage Stamps: Pensioners

Mr Prisk: Although numbers are increasing slowly, Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, CITB-ConstructionSkills recognise that the number of Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with women employed in construction remains Royal Mail on its concessionary scheme for pensioners disproportionately low. CITB-ConstructionSkills is directly to purchase stamps at Christmas. [105153] addressing this issue by actively promoting equality and diversity. Norman Lamb: Ministers in the Department for Business, CITB-ConstructionSkills were awarded the Equality Innovation and Skills (BIS) have held regular meetings Standard, by Equality North East (ENE), during 2011 with Royal Mail to discuss a broad range of issues, as recognition of their commitment to plan and promote including the scheme to offer discounted stamps to good equality and diversity practice in all of their work. some low income households at Christmas. The pricing Gaining the Equality Standard is a first for a Sector of stamps, including proposals for discounts, is an Skills Council and it is also the first time an organisation operational matter for the company. However, Ministers working across Scotland, Wales and England has achieved were informed of the plans and kept updated on progress. the standard. Details of official meetings are published on the BIS In order to increase the number of start-ups by website at: women in the construction industry, it is vital that we http://www.bis.gov.uk/transparency encourage women to set up businesses and provide the support needed to ensure that those businesses thrive. Public Consultation On 23 January, the Prime Minister launched ‘Business in You’, a major year-long campaign to: Promote awareness of the wide range of advice and support Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, available to all businesses through a variety of sources, both Innovation and Skills whether his Department accepts publicly funded and private sector; anonymous contributions to its consultations. [104087] Encourage people to start and grow their own businesses; and Inspire people through the showcasing of real-life small firms Mr Prisk: Both written responses and those responses who are thriving despite the current economic situation. fed in through other channels such as discussion forums The campaign highlights the package of information, and public meetings are carefully analysed in the advice and support that the Government have put in Department, in line with the Consultation Code of place for start-ups and for existing firms. This includes: Practice. Advice and information available at: www.businesslink.gov.uk Quality Assurance Agency: Costs our online information service for businesses which we have recently updated and improved. For start-ups we have a tailored John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, section called ‘My New Business’ which includes a range of Innovation and Skills what the annual running costs online information, training modules, and practical guides. were of the Quality Assurance Agency in 2011-12; and A new national network of experienced business mentors at: what he expects such costs to be in 2012-13. [104780] 953W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 954W

Mr Willetts: The Quality Assurance Agency for higher institutions offer valid, reliable, useful and accessible education (QAA) is an independent body funded by information about their provision. The Code comes subscriptions from universities and colleges and through into operation from this academic year (2012/13) when contracts with the higher education funding bodies. The the QAA review will also include a judgment on the Government have no direct responsibility for the QAA. quality of the information higher education institutions Its annual accounts are, however, published at: provide. http://www.qaa.ac.uk/AboutUs/corporate/Pages/Annual- More widely, through the publication of the Key Reports.aspx Information Set, which will be available from September The annual budget for 2011-12 is available in the 2012, we are encouraging universities to publish information QAA board papers at: in those areas that research has shown that students http://www.qaa.ac.uk/AboutUs/corporate/board/Documents/ find most useful. This will include the costs of tuition BD201127%20Annual%20Plan%20and%20budget%20cover% fees, bursaries and the costs of accommodation. 20paper.pdf Accommodation costs will cover both provision owned/ and summarised on page 30. I understand that the sponsored by institutions and accommodation managed budget for 2012-13 is not yet available. by private landlords and agents. We are also encouraging universities to produce student Research Councils: Costs charters to set out what the university will provide, and what is expected of students in return. Charters link to John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, more detailed information (e.g. handbooks) for each course. The ’suggested list of items’ for charters includes Innovation and Skills what the annual administration ″ ″ costs were of the (a) Arts and Humanities Research essential course costs and estimate of additional costs . Council, (b) Biotechnology and Biological Sciences It is expected that charters are jointly developed and Research Council, (c) Engineering and Physical Sciences agreed with local students’ unions, to ensure that priority Research Council, (d) Economic and Social Research areas are covered. Council, (e) Medical Research Council, (f) Natural We are also putting in place a more progressive living Environment Research Council and (g) Science and costs package for first time undergraduates in 2012/13, Technology Facilities Council in 2011-12; and what he with an increased grant for living costs worth £3,250 for expects such costs to be for each organisation in 2012-13. all students from households with an income up to [104779] £25,000 and increased loans for living costs of up to £5,500 (or up to £7,675 for students living away from Mr Willetts: The requested data is provided in the home and studying in London). In fact, most students following table: will receive a more generous living cost package under the new regime than under the current system. Near Cash DEL (£000) For many of the most disadvantaged students they 2011-12 2012-13 will have access to the new National Scholarship Programme (NSP). In the NSP, universities have a menu of options (a) AHRC 5,848 5,686 through which they can deliver a benefit of at least (b) BBSRC 27,236 26,479 £3,000 (with pro-rata awards for part-time students). (c) EPSRC 16,354 15,899 The NSP menu includes help with accommodation (d) ESRC 5,598 5,443 costs or other institutional services as well as a cash (e)MRC 40,911 39,774 bursary up to £1,000. Institutions will decide which (f) NERC 24,019 23,351 options they make available and the target group to (g) STFC 18,809 18,286 receive them. Total 138,775 134,918 Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he Students: Finance has received from the Higher Education Funding Council for England concerning the monitoring of Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for hidden costs associated with undergraduate degree Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on courses. [105336] making transparent the additional costs that undergraduates incur in undertaking their course of study in respect of Mr Willetts: None. The Higher Education Funding (a) professional fees, (b) mandatory printing costs, (c) Council for England (HEFCE) has, however, made criminal records bureau checks and (d) mandatory representations to the Quality Assurance Agency for field trips; and what his policy is on the meeting of such Higher Education on this matter. In commenting on the costs. [105334] draft UK Quality Code for Higher Education, HEFCE confirmed the need to encourage providers to be transparent Mr Willetts: Increasing transparency and providing about all course costs in providing information to more information to students is central to our higher prospective and new students. education reforms. We expect universities to provide useful information to their students and be transparent Technology Strategy Board about additional course costs. The new UK Quality Code for Higher Education, Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, developed by the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Innovation and Skills how much the Technology Strategy Education (QAA) in consultation with the higher education Board spent on (a) collaborative research and development sector, sets out an expectation that higher education project grants, (b) knowledge transfer partnership awards, 955W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 956W

(c) knowledge transfer network costs, (d) catapult enterprises, (h) Technology Strategy Board administration centre operating costs, (e) catapult centre capital costs, costs and (i) other costs in each year since 2007. [102641] (f) Technology Strategy Board contributions to Small Business Research Initiative contracts, (g) SMART and other grants for research and development to (i) Mr Willetts: Technology Strategy Board spend in individual companies and (ii) small and medium-sized these areas since 2007 is as follows:

£000 2007-08 2008-09 Total grant Total grant Total grant to individual Total grant Total grant to individual Total grant spend companies to SMEs spend companies to SMEs

Collab. R&D1 124,630 2— 2— 113,814 52,666 15,503 KTPs3 34,636 4— 4— 25,841 4— 4— KTNs5 17,473 4— 4— 19,816 4— 4— Catapult centres (operating costs) 000000 Catapult centres (capital costs) 000000 SBRI (contract) 000000 Smart 28,241 28,241 28,241 24,587 24,587 24,587 TSB admin costs 7,870 — — 11,797 — — Other costs 55,271 — — 61,689 — —

2009-10 2010-11 Total grant Total grant Total grant to individual Total grant Total grant to individual Total grant spend companies to SMEs spend companies to SMEs

Collab. R&D 126,766 103,635 29,409 160,964 132,693 32,309 KTPs3 18,093 4— 4— 30,456 4— 4— KTNs5 19,304 4— 4— 18,135 4— 4— Catapult centres (operating costs) 000000 Catapult centres (capital costs) 000000 SBRI (contract) 110 110 74 1,647 1,647 1,103 Smart 32,302 32,302 32,302 7,621 7,621 7,621 TSB admin costs 18,663 — — 32,189 — — Other costs 160,197 — — 154,167 — —

2011-126 Total grant to individual Total grant spend companies Total grant to SMEs

Collab. R&D 156,650 128,000 28,650 KTPs3 19,900 4— 4— KTNs5 15,900 4— 4— Catapult centres (operating costs)7 20,800 4— 4— Catapult centres (capital costs)7 21,500 4— 4— SBRI (contract) 4,000 4,000 2,600 Smart 23,400 23,400 23,400 TSB admin costs 24,300 — — Other costs 20,850 — — 1 Collaborative R and D figures for total grant to individual companies and to SMEs is not available for spend in 2007/08. Spend in this year was in respect of legacy commitments transferred from the Department for Trade and Industry and information about the type of organisations supported is not recorded. 2 Not available. 3 The grant for Knowledge Transfer Partnerships goes to the academic partner in the project. The companies in the partnerships each contribute in the region of £20,000 per annum with most KTPs being for a three-year period. 4 Not applicable. 5 The grant for Knowledge Transfer Networks is in respect of the operating costs of each KTN. 6 Estimated. 7 The grant for Catapults is in respect of the development of the network of Catapult centres.

Travel (ii) coach and (iii) Government car in an official capacity in each of the last six months. [103640]

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many journeys (a) Ministers Norman Lamb: This information can be provided and (b) officials from his Department made by (i) train, only at disproportionate cost. 957W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 958W

UK Innovation Investment Fund You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what estimates the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for has made of the proportion of non-resident parents within the Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has statutory child maintenance system who are likely to experience changes in their earnings in the course of a year of (a) 25 per cent made of the current status of the UK Innovation Investment or more, (b) 15 per cent or more and (c) 10 per cent or more. Fund (UKIIF); what his Department’s plans are for the [102905]. future of the UKIIF; and what evaluation he has made The estimates as follows are based on analysis of a representative of the effectiveness of UKIIF’s previous investments sample of around 2,500 CSA non-resident parents with full including an overall return on investment thus far. HMRC PAYE tax returns in the years 2007/8 and 2008/9. [105380] The percentages shown are the changes between the two tax years in full year earnings. As some income changes will actually Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation occur within a financial year rather than between two financial and Skills (BIS) has put in place an evaluation strategy years, these figures should be treated with a degree of caution. to evaluate the effectiveness of the UK Innovation The information requested is shown in the following table. Investment Fund (UKIIF). A full impact evaluation will be conducted as the fund closes (typically 10-12 Non-resident parents annual years once sufficient time has elapsed for benefits to be income changes 10% 15% 25% realised). However, BIS has commissioned Middlesex university to undertake an early assessment of UKIIF Annual income changes greater 36% 22% 10% than or equal to each percentage to provide an indication of the likely effectiveness of the fund. This will be made publicly available and published on the BIS website in early summer. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Although the financial returns of the fund are one and Pensions with reference to the National Audit measure of success, the ultimate measure of the success Office report, Child Maintenance and Enforcement of the fund will be the additional economic output and Commission: Costs Reduction, HC 1793, what steps innovation spillovers that the fund enables. his Department has taken to require the Commission to improve the planning tool used to develop its Vacancies forecasts for the future statutory scheme. [103281]

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Innovation and Skills how many job vacancies there Commission is responsible for the child maintenance (a) (b) were for staff posts and senior civil service system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner posts in his Department on 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 to write to the hon. Member with the information and (iii) 2012; and if he will make a statement. [104540] requested and I have seen the response. Norman Lamb: The following table lists the number Letter from Noel Shanahan: of job vacancies in the Department on the dates in In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the question: Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance (a) Staff posts (b) Senior civil service posts Commissioner. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, with 31 March 2010 43 1 reference to the National Audit Office report, Child Maintenance 31 March 2011 6 1 and Enforcement Commission: Costs Reduction, HC 1793, what 31 March 2012 51 2 steps his Department has taken to require the Commission to improve the planning tool used to develop its forecasts for the future statutory scheme. [103281] In December 2011 the Commission engaged expert industry WORK AND PENSIONS consultants CapGemini to review its existing high level financial Children: Maintenance model, which was the focus of the NAO’s review, and to deliver new modelling tools based on their extensive experience and using in-depth Commission operational and planning knowledge. Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimates the Child Maintenance In addition to the replacement for the Commission’s high level planning tool, CapGemini has developed a significantly more and Enforcement Commission has made the proportion detailed short term planning tool to support the new high level of non-resident parents within the statutory child business planning model and conduct an extensive. review of all maintenance system who are likely to experience changes financial and operational modelling undertaken by the Commission in their earnings in the course of a year of (a) 25 per in support of its business case. cent or more, (b) 15 per cent or more and (c) 10 per Key work to build and deliver the new modelling tools was cent or more. [102905] completed at the end of March 2012 and they are currently being used in parallel with existing tools to assure their operational use. Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement The recommendations from the CapGemini review have been Commission is responsible for the child maintenance taken onboard by the Commission and are currently being system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner implemented. to write to my hon. Friend with the information requested and I have seen the response. Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Noel Shanahan: Work and Pensions in what circumstances the Child In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Maintenance and Enforcement Commission can decide Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary to re-visit a suspended case having taken a decision to of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance suspend the collection of child maintenance arrears. Commissioner. [103323] 959W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 960W

Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Letter from Noel Shanahan: Commission is responsible for the child maintenance In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary to write to the hon. Member with the information of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance requested and I have seen the response. Commissioner. Letter from Noel Shanahan: You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, with reference to the contribution by the Parliamentary Under Secretary In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the of State of 14 February 2012, [Lords] Official Report, column Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary 777, what estimate he has made of the proportion of parents with of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance care each year who will (a) request to switch to the future Commissioner. statutory collection service because a maintenance direct arrangement You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, in has failed and (b) request to switch from use of the statutory what circumstances the Child Maintenance and Enforcement collection service to a maintenance direct arrangement due to Commission can decide to re-visit a suspended case having taken improved payment behaviour by the non-resident parent and the a decision to suspend the collection of child maintenance arrears. incentive effect of continuing collection charges. [105349] [103323] The Commission’s estimates around the use of maintenance Where the Child Support Agency (CSA) has made a child direct are based on the long term stable percentage of the caseload maintenance calculation and is therefore responsible for the collection using maintenance direct. No explicit estimates of the annual and enforcement of any child maintenance arrears which may flow to and from maintenance direct have been made to date. occur, it can exercise discretion in relation to the collection of some or all of the arrears which may have accrued in any case. Client insight surveys indicated that around 87% of non-resident parents would initially choose maintenance direct when given the If the non-resident parent’s circumstances make it inappropriate choice following application to the statutory scheme. However to pursue recovery of the arrears at a particular time, for example there is uncertainty around the long term stable rate of maintenance due to hospitalisation for serious ill health or pending an appeal direct because the introduction of non-resident parent maintenance tribunal, then the CSA may consider temporarily suspending direct choice and collection charges significantly alter the proposition. collection activity until a later date. However, the parent with Current Child Support Agency maintenance direct sustainability care’s circumstances will be fully considered along with the welfare rates cannot therefore be used as a guide to how many parents of any child affected by the decision before suspension of the with care will switch back to the collection service. arrears will take place. We are in the process of refining assumptions in this area and The length of time that the collection of the arrears may be the revised estimates will be published alongside the impact suspended for is discretionary and is dependant upon the reasons assessment covering charging and case closure later this year. for the suspension and the individual circumstances of the case. In certain situations, such as where the non-resident parent is in residential care or parentage is disputed, there is a set timescale Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for for review of either six or twelve months. In other situations, for Work and Pensions with reference to paragraph 3.10 of example where the decision is taken to suspend collection as a the National Audit Office report, Child Maintenance result of the parent with care and non-resident parent reconciling, and Enforcement Commission: Cost Reduction, what the timescale for review will be discretionary. methodology was used to determine the workload reduction Once the review date is reached, consideration will be given to of £12 million; and what assumptions were made about the case circumstances and whether it is appropriate to reinstate the reduction in his Department’s caseload. [105350] collection activity. In some circumstances it may be appropriate to permanently Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement suspend collection activity. Examples of these occasions may be Commission is responsible for the child maintenance for instance where the non-resident parent has died and there is system. I have asked the child maintenance commissioner no estate from which to recover the arrears, or where the parent with care does not wish arrears owed to them to be collected. to write to the hon. Member with the information requested and I have seen the response. As the CSA does not currently have the power to write off debt in cases such as those described above, the CSA will permanently Letter from Noel Shanahan: suspend collection of the debt and will not set a date to review the In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the position. However should the position change, for instance if the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary parent with care changes their mind and wishes the debt to be of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance recovered, consideration will be given to whether it is appropriate Commissioner. to reinstate collection of the arrears. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, with reference to paragraph 3.10 of the National Audit Office report, Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission: Cost Reduction, Work and Pensions with reference to the contribution what methodology was used to determine the workload reduction by the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State of 14 of £12 million; and what assumptions were made about the February 2012, [Lords] Official Report, column 777, reduction in his Department’s caseload. [105350] what estimate he has made of the proportion of parents The child maintenance reform programme will have a significant with care each year who will (a) request to switch to the impact on the volume of cases administered by the statutory future statutory collection service because a maintenance service in future. The introduction of better co-ordinated support direct arrangement has failed and (b) request to switch services for separated and separating families and charging for from use of the statutory collection service to a maintenance the statutory service is expected to reduce the flow of cases into direct arrangement due to improved payment behaviour the statutory service as it will incentivise and support parents who are able to make maintenance arrangements without formal state by the non-resident parent and the incentive effect of intervention to do so. continuing collection charges. [105349] The statutory service exists for those parents who are not able Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement to agree a family-based maintenance arrangement. The total caseload is made up of nil assessed cases (those which are Commission is responsible for the child maintenance assessed as having no maintenance to pay) and positively assessed system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner (a maintenance liability is determined which the non-resident to write to the hon. Member with the information parent has to pay. Non-resident parents are still able to pay requested and I have seen the response. directly should they so choose through ’maintenance direct’. 961W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 962W

The introduction of an automatic annual review is projected to The following table gives the estimated average annual significantly reduce the numbers of cases which are nil-assessed number of Scottish households in receipt of council tax while the positively assessed caseload is projected to remain benefit between 2011-12 and 2014-15. broadly consistent with current levels although with far greater numbers of non-resident parents paying the parent with care Annual average council tax benefit case load directly. Scotland Thousand The £12m figure was derived by making projections about the 2011-12 567 changes in volume between the baseline year (2010/11) and the target year (in this case 2014/15) and multiplying this by the 2012-13 563 current unit cost. This was performed for three areas: 2013-14 546 Firstly, applications—which are projected to fall. 2014-15 530 Secondly, nil assessed cases—which are projected to fall. These The current volume of Scottish households in receipt are significantly less costly to administer than positively assessed cases or applications as they demand much less activity due to of council tax benefit is published in table 1 here having no maintenance to pay. http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ hbctb_release_apr12.xls Finally, positively assessed cases—which are projected to remain roughly at current levels. These are the majority of the Commission’s case volume and are the most resource intensive of all case types Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for including all of the payment, collection and enforcement activity Work and Pensions how many people residing in Scotland the Commission undertakes. were in receipt of council tax benefit during financial We are in the process of refining assumptions in this area and year 2011-12; and what the average award was for such the revised estimates will be published alongside the impact people. [105386] assessment covering charging and case closure later this year. Chris Grayling: The latest available data are at January Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012. HB/CTB caseload statistics are published Work and Pensions with reference to paragraph 3.7 of approximately three months after the reference date. the National Audit Office report, Child Maintenance The available information is provided in the following and Enforcement Commission: Cost Reduction, what table: proportion of the caseload of the future statutory child Council tax benefit recipients and average weekly award in Scotland: maintenance system his Department anticipates having April 2011 to January 2012 maintenance direct arrangements. [105351] Number in receipt of Average weekly council tax benefit award Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement 2011 Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the child maintenance commissioner April 561,360 12.97 to write to the hon. Member with the information May 564,320 12.96 requested and I have seen the response. June 564,480 12.94 Letter from Noel Shanahan: July 560,470 12.92 August 562,210 12.92 In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary September 565,730 12.92 of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance October 559,130 12.90 Commissioner. November 557,740 12.89 You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, with December 558,090 12.88 reference to paragraph 3.7 of the National Audit Office report, Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission: Cost Reduction, 2012 what proportion of the caseload of the future statutory child maintenance system his Department anticipates having maintenance January 561,490 12.88 direct arrangements. [105351] Notes: The National Audit Office report was based on Commission 1. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. financial projections. At the time of writing their report, the 2. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. 3. Average awards are shown as pounds per week and rounded to the Commission estimated that the impact of charging and wider nearest penny. reforms would mean that between 22% and 44% of positively Source: assessed statutory cases would be paid directly between the non- Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) resident parent and the parent with care over the longer term. We are in the process of refining assumptions in this area and the revised estimates will be published alongside the impact Employment and Support Allowance assessment covering charging and case closure later this year. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Council Tax Benefits: Scotland and Pensions how many employment and support allowance claimants resident in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency and (b) the London borough of Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Bexley were placed in the (i) Work Related Activity Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Group and (ii) Support Group in the latest period for anticipated numbers of applicants for council tax benefit which figures are available. [104457] residing in Scotland for financial years (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14 and (c) 2014-15. [105385] Chris Grayling: In the Bexley local authority area 2,600 people have undergone an initial work capability Chris Grayling: Information on the total number of assessment (WCA) as part of a new claim for employment applicants for council tax benefit in Scotland is not and support allowance (ESA) between October 2008 available. and the end of August 2011, the latest data available. Of 963W Written Answers25 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 964W these 1070 were entitled to ESA; 740 were placed in the and meetings (a) he and (b) officials in his Department Work Related Activity Group and 340 were placed in have had with PayPoint regarding the nature of advertising the Support Group. The remaining 1,530 were Fit for placed at the bottom of receipts to be given to benefit Work. claimants cashing their green giros when using the Constituency level data is not available. system. [105308] Notes: Chris Grayling: Green giros (cheques) are not cashed 1. The information above is taken from administrative data held by the Department for Work and Pensions and assessment data at PayPoint outlets. These are due to be phased out and provided by Atos Healthcare. replaced by the Simple Payment service later this year. 2. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Informal meetings have taken place with PayPoint on 3. The figures above only cover new claims to ESA and exclude the principle of using the Simple Payment receipt for incapacity benefit reassessments to determine eligibility for ESA. advertising, but no discussion has been held regarding On 20 April 2012 the Department published data on the outcomes the specific nature of the content. of IB reassessment claims at the regional and local authority level For the avoidance of doubt, the contractual arrangements at the following link: in place for the Simple Payment service ensure that http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=adhoc_analysis DWP has the final say on what can or cannot be printed Employment Schemes: Young People on receipts given to benefit claimants at PayPoint outlets. State Retirement Pensions: British Nationals Abroad Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many businesses in Motherwell Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for and Wishaw constituency have become a part of the Work and Pensions if he will have discussions with his Youth Contract programme; and how many people in international counterparts on achieving the uprating of Motherwell have found employment or training through frozen British state pensions for those living overseas the programme. [104972] through domestic legislation in each of the countries concerned. [105049] Chris Grayling: The specific information requested is not available. Steve Webb: The Government have no plans to enter Employers engage with us in a variety of ways and we into discussions on annual pension increases for countries are maximising every contact to promote the Youth where those increases are not currently payable. There Contract to ensure that we can provide close to half a are no plans to change the current arrangements for million new opportunities for young people. pensions paid overseas. Retirement Work Capability Assessment: Wales

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many staff of his Department and Pensions how many people in Wales who failed a retired in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; how many of work capability assessment in the last 12 months such staff were taking early retirement in each such subsequently had the decision overturned on appeal. year; and if he will make a statement. [104593] [104863]

Chris Grayling: The following table lists all retirements Chris Grayling: Data on appeals for the last 12 months and early retirements within each of the two financial is not yet available. years from 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2012: In Wales there are 14,850 people who made a claim for employment and support allowance in the period Total retirements between the start of October 2008 the end of November 2010-11 2011-12 2010 (latest data available) who have had an appeal heard against their Fit for Work decision following a Retirements total 1,383 1,448 work capability assessment. In 5,400 cases the original Early retirements 41 n/a decision was overturned and in 9,450 cases DWP’s (included in total) decision was upheld by Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. Social Security Benefits Notes: 1. Appeals against incapacity benefits reassessment claims are not Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work included in these figures. and Pensions if he will publish details of any discussions 2. Numbers above have been rounded to the nearest 10.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 25 April 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 943 WALES—continued Engagements...... 943 Economic Growth...... 939 Enterprise Zones...... 937 WALES...... 934 Foreign Business Investment ...... 934 Aerospace Industry...... 942 Fuel Prices ...... 941 Broadband Technology...... 937 Rail Transport...... 940 Budget (Welsh Assembly)...... 935 South Wales Valley Railways...... 940 Budget (Women)...... 942 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 25 April 2012

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 37WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Audit Commission Pension Scheme ...... 37WS AFFAIRS...... 38WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 38WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 39WS DEFENCE...... 38WS Asylum and Migration Fund and Internal Non-Competitive Government Contracts Security Fund (Police)...... 41WS (Profit Formula)...... 38WS Justice and Home Affairs pre-Council Statement... 39WS PETITION

Wednesday 25 April 2012

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 5P Youth Inclusion Programme (Bristol) ...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 25 April 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 885W CABINET OFFICE...... 901W Bribery Act 2010...... 885W Government Departments: Private Sector...... 901W Financial Services and Markets Act 2000...... 885W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 886W Emergency Services: Business ...... 886W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 948W First Time Buyers: Government Assistance ...... 886W Addison Lee...... 948W Local Government: Pensions ...... 886W Companies: United Arab Emirates ...... 948W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 887W EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Aviation ...... 948W Planning Permission: Recreation Spaces ...... 887W Exports ...... 948W Public Consultation ...... 887W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 949W Public Consultation: Internet...... 888W Higher Education...... 950W Rented Housing: Repairs and Maintenance...... 888W Imports: Raw Materials ...... 950W Urban Areas ...... 888W Legislation ...... 950W Urban Areas: Wales ...... 888W Manufacturing Industries: Greater London...... 951W New Businesses: Construction ...... 951W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 879W Official Secrets ...... 952W Advertising ...... 879W Postage Stamps: Pensioners ...... 952W Broadband ...... 880W Public Consultation ...... 952W Broadband Delivery UK...... 880W Quality Assurance Agency: Costs ...... 952W Legal Costs ...... 881W Research Councils: Costs ...... 953W Museums and Galleries...... 881W Students: Finance ...... 953W Official Secrets ...... 881W Technology Strategy Board...... 954W Performing Arts ...... 882W Travel ...... 955W Public Consultation ...... 882W UK Innovation Investment Fund...... 957W Retirement ...... 883W Vacancies ...... 957W Swimming Pools...... 883W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued HEALTH—continued Television...... 883W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 904W Theatre...... 884W Meat ...... 905W Vacancies ...... 884W Medical Treatments...... 906W Video Games...... 885W Mental Health Services ...... 906W Mental Illnesses ...... 908W DEFENCE...... 915W Musculoskeletal Disorders...... 909W Aircraft Carriers ...... 915W NHS: Pay...... 909W Credit Cards...... 915W NHS: Training ...... 909W Falkland Islands...... 916W Official Secrets ...... 910W NATO...... 916W Pain: Mental Illnesses ...... 911W Postnatal Depression...... 911W EDUCATION...... 923W Prescription Drugs...... 913W Academies...... 923W Prescription Drugs: Prices...... 913W Academies: Finance ...... 923W Prescription Drugs: Shortages...... 914W CAFCASS ...... 924W Smoking...... 914W Curriculum: Design...... 925W Speech Therapy: Children ...... 915W Curriculum: Languages...... 926W Strokes ...... 915W Free Schools...... 926W Further Education: Finance...... 927W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 893W GCSE: Science ...... 927W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 893W GCSE: Surrey ...... 928W Alcoholic Drinks: Prices ...... 893W Human Rights: Children...... 929W Licensed Premises: Security ...... 893W National Careers Service...... 931W Sexual Offences...... 893W Private Education...... 932W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 894W Schools: Holidays ...... 932W Schools: Hygiene...... 933W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 916W Schools: Sports ...... 933W St Helena: Airports ...... 916W Sixth Form Education...... 933W Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 917W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 891W JUSTICE...... 917W Green Deal Scheme...... 891W Abu Qatada ...... 917W Members: Correspondence ...... 891W Administration of Justice: Secrecy ...... 917W Nuclear Power Stations...... 891W Citizens Advice Bureau...... 917W Renewable Energy: Heating ...... 892W Consultants...... 918W Crime: Vehicles ...... 918W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Daedalus Initiative...... 919W AFFAIRS...... 894W Domestic Violence ...... 920W Livestock ...... 894W Family Courts: Expert Evidence ...... 919W Government: Ministerial Meetings ...... 920W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 934W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 921W Ascension Island...... 934W Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Atlantic Ocean Islands...... 935W Offenders Bill...... 922W British Nationals Abroad: Mental Illness...... 935W Legal Costs ...... 922W Diplomatic Service...... 936W Members: Constituents ...... 923W Embassies ...... 936W Human Rights ...... 937W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 889W Indian Ocean: Shipping ...... 937W National Crime Agency ...... 889W Iraq...... 938W Official Secrets ...... 889W Israel: Palestinians ...... 938W Serious Organised Crime Agency...... 889W Legal Costs ...... 939W Middle East ...... 939W PRIME MINISTER...... 879W Piracy...... 940W Members: Correspondence ...... 879W Public Consultation ...... 940W Political Parties: Finance...... 879W Somalia...... 941W South Sudan ...... 942W SCOTLAND...... 889W Sri Lanka ...... 943W Official Secrets ...... 889W St Helena ...... 943W Treaty of Lisbon ...... 943W TRANSPORT ...... 890W Tristan da Cunha ...... 944W Liquefied Petroleum Gas ...... 890W Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 944W Meetings ...... 890W United Arab Emirates ...... 946W Railways: East of England ...... 890W Vacancies ...... 947W Railways: Electrification ...... 891W Zimbabwe ...... 947W TREASURY ...... 895W HEALTH...... 901W Child Benefit...... 895W Accident and Emergency Departments: Waiting Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 896W Lists ...... 901W Infrastructure...... 896W Breast Cancer: Screening...... 902W Revenue and Customs...... 896W Cancer ...... 902W Social Security Benefits...... 897W Health Services: Ex-servicemen...... 903W Stamp Duty Land Tax ...... 897W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 892W Tax Allowances...... 898W Marriage ...... 892W Taxation...... 898W Taxation: Environment Protection ...... 899W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 957W VAT ...... 899W Children: Maintenance ...... 957W VAT: Channel Islands ...... 899W Council Tax Benefits: Scotland ...... 961W Working Tax Credit ...... 900W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 962W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 900W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 963W Retirement ...... 963W WALES...... 900W Social Security Benefits...... 963W First Great Western...... 900W State Retirement Pensions: British Nationals Official Secrets ...... 901W Abroad ...... 964W Rail Transport...... 901W Work Capability Assessment: Wales...... 964W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 25 April 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 934] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Leveson Inquiry [Col. 955] Statement—(Mr Jeremy Hunt)

Suicide (Prevention) [Col. 976] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Dr McCrea)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Civil Aviation Bill [Col. 979] As amended, considered

Police and Crime Commissioners [Col. 1067] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Anglo-Vietnamese Relations [Col. 261WH] Sexting and Sexual Grooming [Col. 279WH] Mayoral Referendums [Col. 288WH] Local Newspapers [Col. 311WH] Outsourcing (Government Departments) [Col. 321WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 37WS]

Petition [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 879W] [see index inside back page]