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Appropriate Guns and Training

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Appropriate Guns and Training © Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, Inc. 1 I spoke with Werner at the January 2012 SHOT Appropriate Show, the shooting industry’s biggest convention, Guns and Training to learn more about his teaching outreach and some of his non-traditional approaches to defense An Interview with Claude Werner preparation. Let’s switch to our familiar Q & A format, to learn from this instructor in his own words. eJournal: Claude, some months ago, you and I discussed coaching new gun owners on what could be called “software” issues. I realized then that you have an oft-forgotten piece of the puzzle to which self-defense practitioners ought to pay more attention. While we know you as the snubby revolver instructor, we don’t know so much about your career, which no doubt influences what you teach, so let’s start there. Werner: Firearms are an important tool in one small context, but when I think back about my experiences, an awful lot of the solutions for my encounters in the various environments I’ve been in–military, governmental and industry–were largely software-related, so I decided to start focusing on putting firearms within a broader context of personal security. eJournal: You use the term “non-permissive by Gila Hayes environment.” Tell me how that applied in your former lines of work and how you transfer your Listening to other viewpoints makes our own experiences to your students’ walks of life. choices better. The firearms community is rife with hard-core dogma about what is appropriate for self Werner: In military and government we think of a defense, in both equipment and training. As gun non-permissive environment as applying to guys owners come from all walks of life, it stands to from The Company, but for all my life, I have been reason that a one-size-fits-all approach inevitably what people call “the grey man.” I remember at one leaves some out. point, hiding in a room that was filled with seven- year old children, thinking, “Well, they’re short and Personal security instructor Claude Werner I’m tall, so if I kneel down, I won’t have a profile.” I (pictured above, teaching), also a Network Affiliated didn’t really think about it, it was just something I Instructor, is one who is not afraid to suggest did naturally, because I don’t like to stand out. defensive solutions that run counter to popular beliefs. He established Firearms Safety Training, After I retired and went into the private sector, I was LLC after 9/11 and was Chief Instructor at the in the commercial real estate business for a long famed Rogers Shooting School in Ellijay, GA from time and then worked for a Big Five accounting firm. 2005 until the end of 2009. Werner, then recently Especially when I got into the Big Five arena, I renamed his company Personal Safety Concepts, might have been in a conference room with 10 or LLC, because as he explained there is much more 15 clients for eight to 10 hours at a time. The idea than guns and shooting involved in personal that you can carry a service pistol concealed and security. undetected in that environment is frankly, unfounded. It simply cannot be done. [Continued...] April 2012 Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network • www.armedcitizensnetwork.org • P O Box 400, Onalaska, WA 98570 © Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, Inc. 2 On the other hand, you can have a Beretta 21A in bad influence on people.” If it means getting people your pocket. In Atlanta, we had a guy go in and to carry a gun all the time, I’ll accept that! shoot up a brokerage firm. I said, “You know what? I will not be a helpless victim in that circumstance.” eJournal: How do you deal with it when somebody Now, how’s that going to turn out, granted that the has been sold an unsuitable gun and asks you to 21A is not particularly powerful? Well, it is a lot teach them to operate it? better than harsh words or a pointed stick. Werner: One of my clients, a brand new shooter, eJournal: That illustrates your willingness to abjure had been sold a full-size Sigarms pistol in .357 Sig. conventional thinking that nothing smaller than a He was of short stature with small hands, and not 9mm will do. You’ve balanced risking your safety only was the caliber too big, the gun was too big, against gambling with your livelihood by carrying a too. He could not reliably hit a silhouette-sized bigger gun that, in your conference room example, target at five yards with it. would be “made.” So I said, “This is not optimal, but let’s work with it,” Werner: A friend of mine who is a lieutenant in a and did a one-hour lesson with him. The next Midwestern police department forwarded me a session, he was shooting it and the same difficulties story of a poor lady who was going to a family were coming up, so I said, “Let’s just try something social event and she did not care to have them different for fun. I happened to have a Walther P22 know that she was armed so she did not take her in my gun box. With its double/single action, it pistol with, despite having a concealed carry license. worked similarly to his SIG. The Walther fit him Well, that is another non-permissive environment. perfectly. He fired one magazine and turned to look The social environment is actually the largest non- at me with a big smile, and said, “You know, this is permissive environment that we find ourselves in. really fun.” We finished that session, and he went Unfortunately, she was followed home and she was into the gun shop before he left and he bought a murdered in her driveway and a friend who was Walther P22. That is what he has been training with. with her was shot through the head. Her gun was in her desk drawer because she had been told you He says, “I carry this around with me all the time, I have got to have a gun that is at least a 9mm, and it like it and it is really fun. I shoot on my property in wasn’t something she could carry in that family non- South Carolina with it.” That makes me think of the permissive environment. Jeffersonian concept of “let your gun be your constant companion on your walks.” And it became If there is one thing that I object to, it is trainers that for him, where the SIG never had been. telling people you have to have something in this size, which then defaults to people who frequently will not have anything at all. I have female clients and friends who have been counseled and trained that they have to have a 9mm, but I think the worst was, “I’m going to get my wife a HK USP Compact in .40.” This poor lady’s hand would barely fit around a 21A! When I can get them away from the bad influence, which is frequently the male influence, I can say, “Here, try this out,” and I hand them a 21A or sometimes a Beretta .380 or something that is smaller and it fits them. A little light that goes on, where they go, “You know? I could have this with me all the time.” When I see that light, I like it! To a certain extent, I have been castigated because Photo shows Werner demonstrating a drill for I will tell people, “If all you can carry is a .22, well, students. carry a .22.” And I’ve had people tell me, “You are a [Continued...] April 2012 Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network • www.armedcitizensnetwork.org • P O Box 400, Onalaska, WA 98570 © Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, Inc. 3 eJournal: I am sure you take some heat about Werner: No, I shoot in Stock Service Revolver fitting students like that with a small caliber gun. In division with snubby revolvers and I have won six fact, I’m sure when we publish this interview, some sanctioned matches using a snub, sometimes will say, “Oh, my goodness, that .22 is going to get against fairly seasoned competitors. It disproved to that student killed.” It is challenging to put aside our me many myths, like the one that says the sight dogma and ask, “Honestly, what will work for this radius is too short. No, that is just because you older gentleman with very small hands?” haven’t practiced enough. Werner: I ask, “What suits him?” as opposed to eJournal: Just proves how much of the equation is what suits me. An instructor projects his or her weighted toward the operator’s skills. That brings personal beliefs, in spite of the fact that the student simply is not the same person as the instructor. us back to your premise that the software is always more important than the hardware. I’d like to eJournal: That takes a good deal of open explore how you teach mindset to students who are mindedness to apply. With the prominence of semi- new to self defense. We’re often urged to be a auto pistols, I expect there is a good deal of open- warrior, but you said your students don’t watch mindedness influencing your development into the action movies and don’t want to be like the lead Snubby Guru, too.
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