Wednesday Volume 672 4 March 2020 No. 34
HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)
Wednesday 4 March 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 817 4 MARCH 2020 818
Nigel Adams: Indeed. This is a great opportunity for House of Commons constituencies across all the nations of the UK. Leaving the EU provides an opportunity to explore the best ways to develop our trade and investment relationships Wednesday 4 March 2020 across Africa. [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) want The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock to intervene? The trade connect programme, announced at the Africa investment summit, will support African businesses to increase their presence in international PRAYERS markets while supporting UK firms to source products. This will benefit UK customers with more choice and quality and lower prices. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Greg Smith: I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments on the success of the Africa investment summit. Can he Oral Answers to Questions update the House on how we can further strengthen our economic partnerships with African nations?
Nigel Adams: I certainly can. My hon. Friend raises INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT an important point. Weare working with African countries to promote mutual prosperity. This incorporates a range of initiatives to increase trade and investment, including The Secretary of State was asked— a new growth gateway, which will enable businesses to Developing World: Business Enabling access the UK Government’s trade, investment and finance offer for Africa all in one place. 1. Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con): What steps her Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP): All of us should be Department is taking to help increase the ease of doing truly proud of our contributions to international business throughout the developing world. [901091] development, yet the opening questions demonstrate 6. Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con): What steps her the dangerous direction in which many in the Tory Department is taking to help increase the ease of doing party are looking to take aid spending. The Department for International Development does not exist to increase business throughout the developing world. [901096] the size of our business abroad, and nor is it part of the 12. Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): What steps is Department for International Trade. Indeed, the public her Department taking to promote the ease of doing good will and trust in the Department has been because business throughout the developing world. [901102] every penny spent has been on helping the world’s poorest and most vulnerable people. As the Government The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): The UK undertake their integrated review, will the Secretary of Government work in 35 low and middle-income countries State reaffirm the Government’s commitment to a fully to implement legal, regulatory and policy reforms to independent Department, with Cabinet-level representation, make it easy for business, including from the UK, to and does she agree that this should not be compromised operate. Business-enabling environment reform was also for quid pro quo deals made to facilitate aid for trade? discussed at the UK-Africa investment summit, which secured commercial deals between UK companies and Nigel Adams: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that African partners worth more than £6.5 billion. the Department has Cabinet representation. I just make the point that trade can be and is a key driver for Gareth Bacon: Does the Minister agree that now we economic growth. It triggers positive changes in a country’s have formally left the European Union we have an economy, which helps raise incomes in the poorest exciting opportunity to build on our historic ties with countries, creates job, lifts people out of poverty and the Commonwealth and use close business links to help helps countries to move beyond trade dependency. developing countries create wealth? Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I welcome the Secretary Nigel Adams: I could not agree more with my hon. of State to her place. I will take an answer from the Friend. He makes a good point. The Government are Minister, but I warmly welcome her to her new position committed to working with our Commonwealth partners in the Cabinet. to support and deepen intra-Commonwealth trade, to On the Department’s role around investment in improve the business environments in Commonwealth developing countries,the International Labour Organisation countries to enable them to be more globally competitive, sets global standards for employment rights. As DFID and to facilitate the economic empowerment of women invests in African nations, will the Minister ensure that and young people by providing more business and those Governments meet international labour standards, educational opportunities. He will have an opportunity on if not even higher standards? Monday to take part in the Commonwealth debate. Nigel Adams: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that Dr Wallis: Now that we have left the EU, the UK can where we have these interests in developing countries we deepen and expand its trade with countries and businesses take those rights incredibly seriously. Our network fully across Africa. Can my hon. Friend update the House on engages with them, and this fantastic array of Ministers, progress made to develop that potential to the benefit of who will shortly do some travelling, will ensure that that constituencies across Wales? is the case. 819 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 820
Sustainable Development Goals: Climate Action Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I am absolutely committed to 0.7% and I am committed to spending it in value-for-money terms for the British taxpayers who are funding it and, 2. Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and most importantly,to ensuring that we help those countries Strathspey) (SNP): What recent progress her Department that are most fragile and most in need of aid and then has made on meeting sustainable development goal 13 on development, so that they can become strong independent climate action. [901092] countries themselves. Getting to that point involves doing lots of things, and not necessarily in the way we TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforInternational have done them before. We need to ensure that we have Development (Wendy Morton): Climate action is a priority a long-term investment perspective to help those countries fortheUKGovernmentandtheDepartmentforInternational to become self-sufficient. I do not want countries always Development. Wehave recently doubled our commitment to be dependent on UK and international aid; I want to international climate finance and will spend £11.6 billion them to be self-sufficient, proud countries that can stand over the next five-year period on helping poorer countries on their own two feet. tackleclimatechange.Since2011,ICFhashelped57million people cope with the effects of climate change and Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): provided 26 million with improved access to clean energy. Given the likely effect of covid-19 on populations that DFID works with, what plans exist to establish contingency Drew Hendry: Drawing climate finance solely from funding to deal with mitigation for those populations the 0.7% will not be sustainable as climate change takes and to shift funding to the development of a vaccine, its toll, and drawing from the aid budget will mean cuts which is a global equity? for health, education and life-saving measures, so what plans does the Minister have to establish new and Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I thank my right hon. Friend additional sources of climate finance? for his question, and for the enormous amount of work that he has done in previous iterations of his posts in this Department and others. He is absolutely right; the Wendy Morton: I absolutely disagree with the hon. challenge of finding a vaccine for covid-19 is something Gentleman. Finance is critical, but this is about more that we are actively involved in, and we have already than just finance. The UK will be hosting COP26 this supported £5 million to the World Health Organisation. year in partnership with Italy and, as I am sure he is I was speaking to Dr Tedros yesterday to find out what aware, this will be happening in Glasgow. Tackling other support we could bring, not only in cash terms climate change is about so much more than just finance; but in expertise such as the skills of epidemiologists and it cuts right across the work that we do in the Department logisticians, which could help the WHO to drive forwards for International Development. in the weakest health systems across the world to ensure that they have the support they need. Departmental Funding Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab): Is the Secretary of State confident that her 3. Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): What Department has sufficient resources to deal with the recent assessment she has made of the adequacy of consequences of the ongoing conflict in Syria, especially funding allocated to her Department. [901093] given the recent call from the UN high commissioner for refugees for the international support for refugees trapped in Idlib to be sustained and stepped up? The Secretary of State for International Development (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): My apologies: I am short on voice today, about which many in the House will no Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I think we are all continually doubt be very relieved. The Government’s 2019 spending horrified by the increasing abandonment of any kind of review allocated sufficient funding to ensure that the respect for humanitarian law that we are seeing in Syria UK can deliver on our commitment to spend 0.7% of from the regime, supported by the Russians. I signed off gross national income on official development assistance an £89 million package last week to provide more in 2020-21. Thanks to this Government’s focus on a immediate help in that area. The challenge is to get it in, strong economy, we can deliver on this commitment, and to ensure that those who are able to deliver that improving the lives of millions in developing countries—for humanitarian relief are able to get in and out safely. The example, by giving more than 14 million children access Foreign Secretary was in Turkey yesterday continuing to a decent education, immunising 56 million children to try to find ways to ensure that those communities are and supporting 52 million to access clean water and at least able to keep warm and fed while we find ways to better sanitation in the past two years alone.1 really sort out this impossible humanitarian challenge. Female Education Tommy Sheppard: I asked that question because in 2013 the Secretary of State tweeted an article that questioned the 0.7% of GDP target and, more recently, 4. Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): What steps her she circulated an article by the former Development Department is taking to support female education in Secretary saying that the waste of cash on fragile states. [901094] “vanity projects in far-flung lands” 11. Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): had kept her awake at night. Can the Secretary of State What steps her Department is taking to help ensure that confirm today that she has changed her mind on this matter girls throughout the world receive 12 years of quality and is now committed to the 0.7% target? education. [901101] 1.[Official Report, 4 March 2020, Vol. 673, c. 8MC.] 821 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 822
The Secretary of State for International Development Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I agree absolutely that education (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): Excuse me, Mr Speaker. My cold is a right for all, but especially for girls. We all know that is a demonstration, if I may say so, of joint working if a girl is educated, that community gains so much with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as it is the more than just that education. That is something that at Foreign Secretary’s cold, which he has shared, most DFID and across this Government we are absolutely unreasonably. [Interruption.] We have sent him abroad. committed to. We are working in a number of areas on Promoting 12 years of quality education for all girls gender equality and reductions in violence against girls, by 2030 is a personal priority of the Prime Minister’s and part of the focus that I am going to give to DFID and of mine. Girls in fragile states are central to this. around girls’education for 12 years is the Prime Minister’s When girls are educated, societies are healthier, wealthier absolute commitment. We will be drawing together all and more sustainable. The UK is the leading donor to the those constituent parts. global fund for education in emergencies, which supported over 1 million children to attend school in 2018. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome the new Secretary of State and also the fact that this morning marks the inauguration of the Speaker’s Laura Farris: There is a fantastic charity in Newbury, chaplain. It is lovely to see her in the Chamber and Afghan Connection, which has built or renovated over leading our prayers. 100 schools in Takhar province, where most adult women are illiterate, yet their daughters go to school because Does the Secretary of State agree that we need much the charity has offered separate school buildings and more energy from legislators worldwide? If we are going female-only teaching staff. What steps can my right to tackle girls’ education worldwide, as well as my own hon. Friend take to support schooling that reflects World Health Organisation work on reducing road social and religious sensitivities like this? accidents worldwide, can we not get the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, the Inter-Parliamentary Union and legislators around the world helping Ministers to Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I thank my hon. Friend for do the job properly? raising the excellent work done by her local charity, Afghan Connection, and I look forward to hearing Anne-Marie Trevelyan: It sounds to me like the hon. more about the work it is doing. Perhaps we can join Gentleman has just given himself a job to help me to that up. draw up the plan that we want to bring together, which DFID supports marginalised girls’ access and stay-in- is exactly as he mentioned. If the focus is on ensuring school through strategies such as gender-sensitive that every girl across the globe has 12 years of education, infrastructure and pedagogy. DFID supports two girls’ we need to include all those things that make it possible, education challenge projects in Afghanistan specifically. such as getting to school safely and appropriate sanitation The UK is the largest donor to the Global Partnership in those schools so that girls can keep attending. I look for Education and to Education Cannot Wait, which forward to him coming to help us— supports girls’ education across fragile states. Mr Speaker: Order. We are going to have to speed up, Jonathan Gullis: I thank my right hon. Friend for her seriously. You are very good, but you’re too detailed. previous answers. As a former secondary school teacher, I know first hand the role that education has in unleashing Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): The Secretary of potential, so will she update the House on what steps State will be aware of the preventing sexual violence in her Department is taking to support women and girls in conflict initiative that was set up in 2012. Does she fragile and conflict-affected states to ensure that where agree that the initiative needs to be relaunched and somebody is born has no bearing on their future potential? shown new leadership in a forthcoming conference later this year?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I thank my hon. Friend for Anne-Marie Trevelyan: The short answer is yes. his service to education before coming on to the green Benches, and I know that he will support our commitment Climate Change: Water Projects to educating girls. Girls in emergencies and crises are more than twice as likely to be out of school, so the UK 5. Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): What recent assessment prioritises quality education in conflicts and crises. We her Department has made of the effect of water projects are the largest donor to Education Cannot Wait, the in tackling climate change. [901095] global fund for education in emergencies, and bilaterally, we are supporting education for over 600,000 girls in TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforInternational Syria and surrounding countries. Development (Wendy Morton): More than 700 million people do not have enough water every day, and climate Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op): change will make it worse unless more action is taken. I welcome the Secretary of State to her place. International DFID is supporting poorer countries to understand Women’s Day is a focal point of the year to celebrate how climate change will affect water availability and to the movement for women’s rights and gender equality, manage their water resources sustainably. DFID spends and we welcome her Department’sfocus on girls’education, about £300 million a year on water, which since 2015 has but does she agree that girls’ education is a basic and given over 51 million people across 30 countries clean universal human right, not something that should be water or a decent toilet. used simply as a means to achieve other ends? Will she commit to implementing a gender-transformative approach Fleur Anderson: Some 800 million people across the across DFID’s work to help dismantle the structural world still do not have access to clean water, and clean causes of gender inequality? water is the first line of defence in coping with climate 823 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 824 change. We are currently seeing a need for handwashing, James Duddridge: I am familiar with the situation, as for which people need clean water, but the most climate- the hon. Lady knows, and I am more than happy to vulnerable countries across the world have some of the update her in writing. lowest levels of clean water. Only 5% of global climate finance is spent on helping countries adapt to climate Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): change. Will the Minister increase funding for water, Access to clean water is an essential prerequisite to sanitation and hygiene projects to tackle the impact of development in sub-Saharan Africa. What steps are climate change and adapt— being taken to support small charities that excel in that much-needed activity in that land? Mr Speaker: Order. Wendy Morton: By 2030, 40% of the world’s population James Duddridge: The provision of water is essential, will be facing water scarcity unless action is taken, and and the Department is particularly keen to enable small we in DFID take that very seriously. This year is critical charities, particularly small British charities, in this for galvanising global ambition on climate change, which sector. If the hon. Gentleman has any particular ideas, is why COP26 is so important. DFID programmes my colleagues and I are more than happy to receive cover many crucial aspects of water security, but there is them. much more to do to avert the global water crisis.
Infrastructure in Developing Countries Topical Questions 7. Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): What steps her Department is taking to help improve T1. [901106] Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): infrastructure in developing countries. [901097] If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. 8. Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): What steps her Department is taking to help The Secretary of State for International Development improve infrastructure in developing countries. [901098] (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): We are proud to maintain our manifesto commitment to spend 0.7% of our income on TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforInternational international development, helping countries to become Development (James Duddridge): DFID has over 150 infra- economically self-sufficient, free societies where liberal structure programmes, including providing water, roads, values can flourish. That is firmly in our own interests. electricity,schoolsandhospitals.ThisGovernmentestablished The climate change challenges, alongside championing the International Development Infrastructure Commission 12 years of girls’education and tackling preventable diseases, to accelerate our work in this area. will be our focus. These are global challenges, achievable thanks to DFID investment in world-leading British Gareth Davies: Infrastructure is critical for economic business, the talent of our innovators, and our world-class growth, creating jobs and boosting businesses, but we defence and diplomatic network. I am determined that the must also be mindful of the natural environment. What British public’s altruism will be reflected in the outcomes steps are the Government taking to ensure that new that we see from DFID funding. infrastructure development in developing countries is sustainable? Antony Higginbotham: The UK plays a leadership James Duddridge: DFID is directly investing in role in countries around the world, projecting our values infrastructure programmes that will enhance climate and ensuring that free societies can flourish. Education resilience in developing countries. Our work is focused is a key part of that, so, ahead of International Women’s on creating the right enabling conditions to direct private Day, what steps is my right hon. Friend taking to ensure finance into low-carbon infrastructure, expanding Africa’s that every child gets 12 years of education? financial markets and unlocking investment through innovative instruments such as green investment bonds. Anne-Marie Trevelyan: Talent is spread around the world but, sadly, opportunity is not. Twelve years of Sir David Evennett: I welcome my hon. Friend’s work quality education is a key priority, and I am proud that in this important area. As we look to the UN climate between 2015 and 2019 we supported 14.3 million girls summit in Glasgow later this year, can he update the to gain a decent education, across 70 of our most fragile House on the work with countries across Africa to help countries. As another International Women’s Day is them develop their clean energy potential? before us, we have the opportunity to refocus our energies on making sure that there is not a single girl who is not James Duddridge: I thank my right hon. Friend for 1 his passion for Africa. We are committed to working educated. with African countries to boost renewable energy potential and cleaner energy alternatives. For example, the Africa Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): I welcome clean energy programme is working in over 15 countries the new Secretary of State to her post. She leads one of to increase the deployment of off-grid renewable energy. the most important Departments, which literally saves lives every day. More than 60 countries across the world Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ have reported at least one case of coronavirus, but, as Co-op): The Department invested nearly £300 million yet, we have not seen a widespread outbreak in sub-Saharan of taxpayers’ money in the airport on St Helena. Will Africa. What immediate steps is she taking to ensure the the Minister update us on whether aircraft can now land preparedness of the world’s poorest nations in the event and take off from that expensive airport? of such an outbreak? 1.[Official Report, 17 March 2020, Vol. 673, c. 8MC.] 825 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 826
Anne-Marie Trevelyan: The hon. Gentleman is right The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): Research and to say that the great challenge is to be able to provide development is incredibly important, which is why we support to those countries where their health systems have thus far committed more than £40 million. I take are weakest, should they need that support. Alongside my hon. Friend’squestion seriously.Through our networks, our colleagues at the Department of Health and Social we can project and promote good practice, and I am Care, I am working closely with the World Health sure that that is what we are doing. Organisation to make sure that we can support it with technical skills as well as funding. We have already T5. [901110] Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) given £5 million to its initial fund to make sure that it (Lab/Co-op): Peace in Colombia is currently very unstable can be as prepared as possible and reach as quickly as and the peace process is fragile. We are giving money for possible those countries that will need this. security reform, but no money for policing and community development. This year alone, 52 trade unionists and Dan Carden: The situation in Idlib and across Syria community leaders have been assassinated. Will the has reached a horrifying new level: indiscriminate bombings Government put in money to support policing and are killing civilians and humanitarian workers; 1 million investigations? people have fled their homes; people are sleeping in freezing conditions; and children are dying. We welcome Wendy Morton: The Government are aware of the the Government’s increased humanitarian response, but situation in Colombia and Venezuela. The UK is one of what is the UK, as a member of the Security Council, the largest donors to the humanitarian response in doing? When will the Prime Minister play his part to Venezuela and the top donor to the Central Emergency lead diplomatic efforts to protect civilian lives in Syria? Response Fund and Education Cannot Wait. I will come back to the hon. Gentleman in respect of his specific Anne-Marie Trevelyan: The Foreign Secretary is in point on policing. the region at the moment, continuing to work with regional leaders to try to find ways to move forward Mr Speaker: This is not the normal situation, but it is supporting the Turkish communities who are looking very important that I welcome the Pakistani Governor after so many displaced people. As I said, we continue of the Punjab, Mohammad Sarwar, who is a former to be horrified and appalled by the humanitarian legal colleague and Member of this House and is in the breaches that are going on, and we continue to provide Gallery today. We welcome him. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, support. I signed off £89 million last week to make sure hear.”] that we can provide support as best we can.
T4. [901109] Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con): British scientists led the world in vaccine development. What PRIME MINISTER steps is DFID taking to support the next generation of inoculation and vaccine development? The Prime Minister was asked— TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforInternational Engagements Development (Wendy Morton): The UK is hosting the global vaccine summit in June, supporting Gavi, the Q1. [901076] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): If he Vaccine Alliance to raise at least $7.4 billion towards will list his official engagements for Wednesday 4 March. vaccination for the world’s poorest children. Ahead of the summit, we are convening world-leading British The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): It is now two academics, the private sector and civil society in Liverpool years to the day since a chemical weapon was deployed to highlight UK research in global health that helps to by Russian military intelligence on the streets of Salisbury. unlock barriers to ending preventable deaths. All our thoughts remain with those affected and their families and loved ones. We will continue to seek justice T2. [901107] Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): for them. I am pleased to say that, two years on, Has the Secretary of State read the UNICEF report on Salisbury is back on its feet, focused firmly on the ending preventable child deaths? What specific actions future and welcoming visitors with open arms. I am and finance will DFID employ to meet the aim of sure the House will want to pay tribute to the people of ending preventable child deaths by 2030? Salisbury and Amesbury and wish them well for the future. Wendy Morton: We welcome that report and its This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues recognition of the work the UK is already doing. The and others. In addition to my duties in this House, report is in line with the Government’s ambition to end I shall have further such meetings later today. preventable maternal, newborn and child deaths by 2030. We will be publishing a paper shortly setting out Richard Graham: As the Government prepare the how we will work with others to reach that goal. nation for the worst of the coronavirus, while working for the best, now is the time to wash our hands and pull Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): The coronavirus, together, so does the Prime Minister agree that we need severe acute respiratory syndrome and similar illnesses in place a robust plan to cover any significant cash-flow are believed to have been started in unsanitary butcheries losses for businesses, so that employees and their mortgages, in eastern and south-east Asia. What role does, and can, rents and benefits will still be paid? Will the Treasury the Department have in producing cleaner butcheries, consider delaying VAT and pay-as-you-earn collection, so that we do not get this transfer from animal to if need be? Does the Prime Minister agree that, come human disease? what may, as we saw during the devastating floods of 827 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 828
Gloucester in 2007 and elsewhere recently, Britain will The Prime Minister: We are not at that stage, or find the strength, perhaps aided by a cup of not- anything like that stage, yet. The right hon. Gentleman necessarily-Yorkshire tea, to pull through? knows that our police forces are well able to cope with alltypesof eventualitiesandhavelong-standingarrangements The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. to prepare them for such pressures. We are of course monitoring the situation and are prepared to support individuals, businesses and the Jeremy Corbyn: Under this Government, there are economy to maintain economic confidence, quite rightly. 2 million workers on low pay, many of them women in Our action plan—our battle plan—points to mitigations the care sector who are not eligible for statutory sick that already exist, such as Her Majesty’s Revenue and pay at the present time. It is not clear whether the Prime Customs’ Time to Pay arrangements, which are available Minister’s statement just now covers them or not, and on a case-by-case basis to support firms struggling with those on social security could face sanctions if they payments. miss appointments and, therefore, they and their families will face terrible hardship. When the Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I am sure the brings forward the emergency legislation, will he guarantee whole House will join me in congratulating the Prime that workers’ rights to sick pay from day one—he has Minister and his partner on the news that they are just indicated that that will apply on statutory sick expecting a baby. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] pay—will apply to all claimants? Those people who are I join the Prime Minister in wishing the people Salisbury not currently eligible for statutory sick pay will have to well. It is a wonderful city and I have visited it many make a terrible choice between health and hardship. times, and what happened to them was of course utterly appalling. Their safety and security is paramount for all The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is of us. raising a very important point. We are, of course, very I pay tribute to all the medical staff and, indeed, much aware of the issues faced by the self-employed expert public servants, here and overseas, who are doing and those on zero-hours contracts. I should stress that vital work to combat the spread of coronavirus and are some of them will be entitled to statutory sick pay— looking after those affected. [Interruption.] A great many. Others will be entitled to help through the existing system, such as universal Yesterday,our part-time Prime Minister finally published credit. We are urgently looking at the application process the steps that his Government will take to tackle the to reflect on the advice on self-isolation. I think that outbreak of the disease. The strategy broadly has our members of the public have appreciated the way that, support, but a decade of Tory austerity means that our hitherto, Members have come together across the Floor national health service is already struggling to cope. of this House to deal with the crisis. I think it would be Bed-occupancy levels are at 94% and hundreds of our common ground between us all that we would want to most vulnerable people are being treated on trolleys in do everything we can to avoid penalising those who are corridors. What additional funding will our overstretched doing the right thing. and underfunded NHS be given to deal with this crisis? Jeremy Corbyn: The Prime Minister is not being clear The Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman about this. The reality is that, if a person is on universal knows, this Government have put record funding into the credit or has just been put on to it, they have a five-week NHS and we have pledged that we will give it everything wait before they get any benefits. Will he be absolutely that it needs to cope with the crisis. clear that nobody—nobody—will have to choose between It might be for the advantage of the right hon. health and hardship, because it is a matter of public health Gentleman and the House if I update the House on concern for everybody? where we are with the coronavirus outbreak. As yesterday’s Our part-time Prime Minister failed to turn up on plan made clear, we are not at the point yet where we are Monday to answer a question about a breach of the asking large numbers of people to self-isolate, but that, ministerial code. In his own foreword to that code, the of course, may come if large numbers of people have Prime Minister wrote: the symptoms of coronavirus. If they stay at home, the House will understand that they are helping to protect “There must be no bullying and no harassment”. all of us by slowing the spread of the virus and that is Will he now commit to an independent investigation what the best scientific evidence tells us. If they stay at into the Home Secretary’s conduct, led by an external home and if we ask people to self-isolate, they may lose lawyer, and commit to a date when its findings will be out financially, so I can today announce that the Health made public? Secretary will bring forward, as part of our emergency coronavirus legislation, measures to allow the payment The Prime Minister: Of course, it is right that there of statutory sick pay from the very first day you are should be an investigation into any allegations of bullying, sick, instead of four days under the current rules. That and that is what the Cabinet Office and Sir Alex Allan is the right way forward. Nobody should be penalised will be doing. Since the right hon. Gentleman mentions for doing the right thing. the Home Secretary, let me just remind him that she is keeping this country safe by putting in place record Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the Prime Minister for that, numbers of police officers, she believes in stopping the but I want to ask him a couple more questions on this early release of offenders, and she is bringing in an subject. Is it true, as has been reported, that police Australian-style,points-basedsystemtotackleourmigration forces are likely to become so overstretched by coronavirus crisis. The right hon. Gentleman would scrap stop and that 999 response times will have to be extended and search, he believes in getting rid of our security services that even investigations into some murders will have to and he certainly would not tackle our immigration be halted as a result of this? system. 829 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 830
Jeremy Corbyn: This is about whether the Prime Minister been reduced by a third over the past 10 years is a fantastic will release the findings of an investigation into the and important Conservative achievement, and will he Home Secretary’s behaviour. I repeat to him that a set out his plans to continue this progress? Government cannot be judge and jury over their own conduct; there has to be an independent element to that The Prime Minister: I will indeed. Today I will chair investigation. Overnight, further allegations have emerged the first ever Cabinet Committee on Climate Change, that the Home Secretary repeatedly harassed and humiliated in recognition of this Government’s revolutionary her private secretary while she ran the Department for commitments to cut to net zero by 2050—one of the International Development. If that is true, it suggests a many ways in which the Government are leading Europe shocking and unacceptable pattern of behaviour across and the world in tackling climate change. three Government Departments. On each occasion, tens of thousands of pounds of hard-earned taxpayers’ Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): Like money has been spaffed up the wall to buy their silence. the Prime Minister, I note the two-year anniversary of Was the Prime Minister aware of these allegations about the terrible attack in Salisbury. It is important, on these the Home Secretary? If he was, why did he appoint her? matters and on other crises that we face,such as coronavirus, that, where appropriate, we do stand together. The Prime Minister: I repeat the point I just made—the Coronavirus is causing deep and genuine concern Home Secretary is doing an outstanding job and I have across society.We know that up to 80% of the population every confidence in her. If there are allegations, of are at risk of infection. We must all provide clear, calm course it is right that they should be properly investigated and practical leadership in the days, weeks and months by the Cabinet Office, and that is what is happening. ahead. In the past few days, Scotland’s First Minister, But I take no lessons about bullying from the leader of the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government a party where female MPs were bullied so badly in the have been working closely together to put plans in place matter of antisemitism that they actually left the party, to protect all our people. Yesterday, the Governor of the and where the shadow Chancellor has still not apologised Bank of England suggested that a financial bridge may for his call for a Member of our party to be lynched. be available to assist markets through any volatility. If there is a financial bridge for markets, can the Prime Jeremy Corbyn: The Prime Minister said, “If there Minister tell us: will there be a financial bridge for all are allegations”. Is he completely unaware of all the workers and, indeed, those who rely on benefits, who allegations that have been made over the last few days? should not risk the threat of sanction if they cannot Is he completely unaware of the resignation of a permanent make an appointment? secretary because of his treatment by the Home Secretary? We have a part-time Prime Minister who barely turns up but is determined a cover up for bullies in his The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman Government. There cannot be one rule for workers for the excellent co-operation that Scotland and, indeed, across this country,and another for him and his Ministers. all the devolved Administrations have given in preparing His Home Secretary has been accused of repeated the battle plan. Yes, really to recapitulate my answer to bullying and harassment, leading to hard-working staff the Leader of the Opposition, we will take every step attempting suicide by overdose, and he has given her his that we can to ensure that businesses are protected, that full support. How can the people of this country have the economy remains strong and that no one, whether faith in a Prime Minister who cannot be bothered to employed or self-employed—whatever the status of their turn up and, when he does, has no shame in defending employment—is penalised for doing the right thing. bullying in his own Government? Ian Blackford: I thank the Prime Minister for that The Prime Minister: That is a question from a full-time answer, and I commit my party and our Government in neo-Marxist who has failed to stamp out bullying in his Scotland to work constructively together. own party. I am very proud of the record of this Of course, people are worried about their health, but Government, just over the last 82 days. We have taken there are millions of workers who are worried about the back control of our borders, our laws and our money. consequences for their incomes, their job securities and Wehave got Brexit done.Wehave set out a new points-based their families, so I do ask that the Prime Minister give immigration system. We have put more money into specific guarantees. Certainly, we will work together in people’s pockets through the biggest ever increase in the the SNP in pushing for emergency legislation. Will he living wage, and have guaranteed more funding for give the clarification that all workers will be fully protected schools by increasing the minimum funding for every from the first day of sickness, that those payments pupil. We have restored the nurses’ bursary, introduced should be up to the level of the real living wage and that a Bill to set out a record cash boost for our NHS and there will be emergency legislation to guarantee that ensured that there will be free hospital car parking for staff who are asked to self-isolate, and their businesses, everybody who attends a hospital. And we are delivering are fully supported? That is the leadership that is required. gigabit broadband for the entire country. That is to say I ask if the Prime Minister will commit himself to nothing of the police we are recruiting. That is just in working constructively with us all to that end. the last 82 days. We are getting on with delivering the people’s priorities. The Prime Minister: Again, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the spirit in which he asks the question. Q4. [901079] Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con): My He will have seen from my earlier answer that what we constituents in East Surrey care enormously about are indeed doing is advancing the day, on a temporary climate change. Does my right hon. Friend agree that basis, on which people are eligible for statutory sick pay yesterday’s news that the UK’s carbon emissions have from the fourth day to the first day. I think that is the 831 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 832 right thing. Again, I repeat that we will support business in prison for longer. I am delighted that the west midlands, and we will make sure that we keep the economy strong. thanks partly to my hon. Friend’s lobbying, is receiving No one should be penalised for doing the right thing. I another 366 police officers. am sure that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will be happy to engage in further conversations with the Q3. [901078] Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) right hon. Gentleman about the detail of how we propose (Lab): I note that, in the interests of public safety, the to do that. Government have taken emergency measures to rush through legislation to ensure that those convicted of Q8. [901083] Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) terrorist offences serve their full sentences. Given the far (Con): Tomorrow is St Piran’s day, when Cornish men smaller conviction rate and far more substantial reoffending and women around the world will be celebrating our rate for those convicted of sexual offences, will the national saint and all things Cornish. St Piran is also Prime Minister commit to a wider sentencing review, so the patron saint of tin mining, but mining is not just that communities can rest assured that sex offenders something assigned to Cornish history. Is the Prime who pose a threat to children and women are serving Minister aware that significant deposits of lithium have their full sentences, to ensure their rehabilitation? beenidentifiedinCornwall,whichprovidestheopportunity of levelling up the Cornish economy and providing the The Prime Minister: I congratulate the hon. Lady on UK with a domestic supply of this critical mineral? Will what she just said, which may have come as a bit of a he commit his Government to enabling Cornwall to bombshell to some of her colleagues— make the most of this opportunity, and wish all Cornish Charlotte Nichols indicated dissent. men and women a happy St Piran’s day? The Prime Minister: Perhaps those on the shadow The Prime Minister: This country, as my hon. Friend Front Bench, at any rate. The hon. Lady is entirely right, knows, leads the world in battery technology. It is a and that is what we are doing, as I said in my earlier answer. wonderful thing that Cornwall indeed boasts extensive resources of lithium, and we mean to exploit them. I Q11. [901086] Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con): Will my know that there is no more passionate champion of right hon. Friend commit to ensure that Blyth Valley Cornwall than my hon. Friend. I wish him a happy benefits from the Government’s ambition to unite and Saint Piran’s day—and Kernow bys vyken! level up across this fantastic country?
Q2. [901077] Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The Prime Minister: I can indeed. That is why we are Last week’s historic judgment against Heathrow supporting the Ashington to Blyth to Tyne rail line—the expansion found that the Prime Minister’s Government start of our £500 million investment in connecting broke the law by ignoring the Paris climate agreement towns whose stations were closed during the Beeching and by breaching their own sustainable development cuts. That is among many other benefits that we will duty to future generations when they drafted the airports bring to the people of Blyth. I thank my hon. Friend for national policy statement. Will the Prime Minister tell his support. Weare going to repay the trust and confidence the House today precisely how many of the Government’s of those people by investing in their communities. other national policy statements have been assessed Q5. [901080] Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Karbon against the Paris climate agreement, and will he commit, Homes, a registered social landlord, has over 30,000 right now, to reviewing and, if necessary, revising all homes in the north and north-east. Detailed research those that have not? that it has conducted shows that the five-week delay in universal credit payments ensures that many families The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Lady for her amass huge rent arrears before receiving anything and question. She can take it that we will ensure that we are trapped in debt for years. Some 72% of its tenants abide by the judgment and take account of the Paris on universal credit are now in significant rent arrears, convention on climate change, but I do not believe for with over half of them technically destitute. The Prime one second that that will be an impediment to our delivery Minister’s mantra that work is the route out of poverty of an infrastructure revolution across this country. is true only if there are jobs that are full time, permanent and decently paid. When will he stop this Q9. [901084] Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): deliberate policy of inflicting impoverishment and Communities like mine in West Bromwich West are destitution on tenants of Karbon Homes and other grateful for this Government’s commitment to 366 police registered social landlords in the north-east? officers for the west midlands. Will my right hon. Friend reaffirm that, unlike the Labour police and crime The Prime Minister: I am happy to study the particular commissioner, who is decimating communities like mine case that the hon. Gentleman raises. Universal credit is in Tipton with the closure of our police station, this available from day one—[Interruption]—and I stick Government are committed to keep our communities firmly to my belief that the best route out of poverty is safe through investment in the police and tougher sentences not benefits but work, and what this Government have for the criminals who are ruining the lives of my constituents achieved is record low unemployment and record gains in Tipton? in employment across the country.Wages are now rising— [Interruption.] They don’t want to hear it, but the truth The Prime Minister: That is precisely why my right is that wages are now rising for the low-paid as well. hon. Friend the Home Secretary is working so hard to recruit 20,000 more police officers and to enhance stop- Q13. [901088] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): and-search powers. That is why we have set out plans to Last Thursday, in the dead of night, the Prime Minister build more prisons and keep violent and sexual offenders made a secret visit to Kettering General Hospital. There 833 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 834 was no media entourage. This was no photo call; he had shoulder to shoulder with Afghan women, many of whom come to listen. He listened to staff. He listened to have already lost their lives just fighting for dignity under patients, and he left at 3.30 am. One patient said, “I Taliban rule? thought Boris was a bit of a dopey bloke, who doesn’t really know what’s going on, but he was a lovely bloke The Prime Minister: We of course stand shoulder to and actually caring to all other patients.” Prime Minister, shoulder with the Government of Ashraf Ghani, and what did you learn from your listening visit? my hon. Friend is right, by the way, in what she says about women in Afghanistan. It is one of the great The Prime Minister: I learned what a wonderful staff achievements of this country, despite all the sacrifices we have in the NHS, and I am delighted to say that that we experienced in the operations in Helmand, that Kettering General Hospital NHS Foundation Trust will millions of women in Afghanistan were helped into receive £3.7 million seed funding for a full redevelopment, education, thanks to the interventions of this country, in addition to the £46 million that we are now putting in and we can be very proud of what we did. to its urgent care hub. This is the party of the NHS— delivering on the people’s priorities in Kettering and Q10. [901085] Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) across the country. (SNP): We are all becoming increasingly concerned about covid-19—the coronavirus—but every week 650 of Q6. [901081] Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and us come here from every part of the UK, spend several Woolwich) (Lab): For the purpose of clarity, if the days operating in close proximity and meeting people Cabinet Office inquiry into allegations that the Home from all over the world, and we then return to our Secretary breached the ministerial code establishes that constituencies, potentially becoming the very vectors her conduct fell below the standard expected of a Minister that we are trying to shut down. Parliament must stay in any way and on any occasion, can the Prime Minister open, but what plans does the Prime Minister have to confirm that she will be expected to resign or be removed utilise systems such as conference calls and electronic from office? voting to ensure that we do not become part of the problem? The Prime Minister: I return to the point I made The Prime Minister: The hon. Member is raising a earlier on, which is that the Home Secretary is doing very important point. The chief medical officer and the an outstanding job—delivering change, putting police chief scientific adviser, together with my right hon. out on the streets, cutting crime and delivering a new Friend the Health Secretary, will be saying a little bit immigration system—and I am sticking by her. more in the next couple of days about what we are going to do to delay the advance of coronavirus—in Q14. [901089] Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): Having Parliament and in other large gatherings. We are still at knocked on doors across Stafford in my constituency, it the containment stage—she will understand the distinction is clear that the A&E at County Hospital is a vital local that the Government are making—and when we come service, so does the Prime Minister agree with me that to the delay phase, she will be hearing a lot more detail A&E units at medium-sized hospitals such as County about what we propose to do with large gatherings and are essential for the future delivery of care in our NHS? places such as Parliament. The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Health Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): My consituent Secretary has just told me—passing the ball swiftly Tom Channon was just 18 years old when he tragically down the line—that, yes, my hon. Friend’s A&E is died at the Eden Roc complex in Majorca in July 2018. certainly staying open, and I thank her for the point This incident was totally preventable and avoidable. It that she makes. came just five weeks after Tom Hughes from Wrexham fell to his death at the same site in similar circumstances. Q7. [901082] Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): Nothing had been done to make the site safe. An Resignation of an experienced civil servant, sacking of independent surveyor report has pointed to serious a Government aide—with this Government it seems health and safety deficiencies, Tom’s parents, John and that allegations of bullying or just being incompetent Ceri Channon, have been campaigning for a criminal gets you promoted, whereas standing up to it, you lose case to be brought against those responsible. Will my your job. What does this say about this Prime Minister? right hon. Friend the Prime Minister use all his influence to press the Spanish authorities to pursue a criminal The Prime Minister: I loathe bullying, but I am not prosecution that not only seeks justice for Tom but also taking any lessons from a party that has presided over sends a clear message to other accommodation-owners systematic bullying and discrimination against those in Majorca to prevent similar tragedies from occurring who stick up for the Jewish community and for Israel in in future? this country, and we still have yet to hear a proper apology from the Labour party or from the Labour The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend leadership for what they have done. very much for raising what sounds like an appalling case, and I am sure the whole House will join me in Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): The Taliban have expressing our deepest sympathies to Tom’s family and resumed their attacks in Afghanistan, and today the US friends. To seek justice for Tom, I am very happy to ask has undertaken defensive airstrikes, undermining the the Foreign Office to begin talks first with my right hon. fragile peace deal, which will mean the release of thousands Friend and then with their Spanish counterparts. of prisoners and the continued export of opium to fund extremism. Does my right hon. Friend share my concern Q12. [901087] Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) that no peace deal can bypass the Afghan Government, (Lab): Last month, a young man from my constituency and will he give me his assurances that we will stand was fatally stabbed, and just this weekend another 835 Oral Answers 4 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 836 young man was stabbed in Coventry. Violent crime in Liz Kendall: Will the Prime Minister meet me to discuss the city is rising, yet I only have 10 police officers in my a special migration route into social care, to stop the constituency, some of whom I share with my Coventry current crisis getting even worse? colleagues. As the Prime Minister makes such a big deal about his 20,000 new police officers, can he tell my The Prime Minister: I do not know quite what the constituents whether we are going to get our fair share? hon. Lady means by excluding EU workers, since there are record numbers of EU workers currently in this The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely right country, and indeed more can come until the end of the to raise the issue of stabbings and violent crime, which I year, when they can register. I have every confidence agree with her are too high and must come down. That that we will solve the issue of social care. We will be is one of the reasons why we are increasing the number bringing forward plans very shortly, which I hope will of police officers in this country, and, as she will have attract cross-party support, to ensure that everybody heard in the House just now, in the west midlands that gets the dignity that they need in old age and nobody is number is going up by 366 immediately. forced to sell their home.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) The Prime Minister will be aware that, due to coronavirus, (Con): My right hon. Friend has, with righteous zeal, demand for air travel has decreased around the world. acted to curb the early release of terrorist prisoners, but Is he aware that, due to slot allocation rules, there are he must know that those plans will be put at risk by perverse incentives for airlines to fly half-empty planes malign, bourgeois-liberal judicial activists, so will he, in around the globe so as not to lose lucrative slots? Will the spirit of our wonderful new Attorney General, he seek a derogation for UK airlines from these international agree an urgent review of the legislative means they use rules, if only for the sake of the environment? to do their work and to put our people at risk and the Government’s plan to tackle that in jeopardy? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises a characteristically brilliant point, which I confess has The Prime Minister: It is certainly true that people not been drawn to my attention so far. I will look at it, have been let out far too early, far too often. That is why and it certainly seems crazy that planes should be flying we are not only looking into stopping the early release simply to retain the slots to which they are entitled, and of serious sexual and violent offenders, but have already we will see what we can do. produced legislation to stop the early release of terrorist offenders. Q15. [901090] Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): The Prime Minister promised on the steps of Downing Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The Street to fix the crisis in social care. We need an extra Prime Minister will be aware of continuing concerns in 580,000 care workers, not to improve services, but just Northern Ireland among business about the Northern to fill existing vacancies and meet the basics of growing Ireland protocol. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet demand. Even if the Government fund increases in the a cross-party delegation of Members of Parliament pay and status of carers, where on earth are we going to representing Northern Ireland and business representatives find all these extra staff when EU workers will be to discuss his commitment to maintain unfettered access excluded under the Prime Minister’s new immigration to the UK market for Northern Ireland business? system? [Interruption.] Our families and the NHS— [Interruption]—depend on— The Prime Minister: I have no difficulty at all making Mr Speaker: Order. I make the decisions; please, we such an undertaking, because it is very clear from the want shorter questions.Now,just finish, very quickly—and protocol that unfettered access for Northern Ireland when I get up, please give way. will continue. 837 4 MARCH 2020 Personal Statement 838
Personal Statement City Minister was my first job in David Cameron’s Government, working to introduce new pensions freedoms, Mr Speaker: I have granted leave to the right hon. setting out the ring-fence for banking groups, arranging Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) for the Post Office to provide banking services on the to make a personal statement following her resignation high street, and recovering over £1 billion from the from the Government. I remind the House that Icelandic Government after the bail-out of Icesave. interventions are not allowed and that there can be no After David Cameron’s excellent win in 2015, I was debate arising from such statements. moved to Energy. With my good friend Amber Rudd as Secretary of State, we rebalanced the needs of the fuel 12.35 pm poor with speedy growth in renewables, we announced Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I that coal would come off the grid entirely by 2025, and want to use this personal statement to place on record we kept the lights on through one of the tightest winter what an incredible job this is, and to encourage others, energy margins ever. And that was the year of Paris particularly women, who are thinking about public COP21. It is a real source of pride to have joined that service that they really can make a positive difference. global effort to tackle climate change. I wish my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy Since 2010, we have lived through three general elections and Industrial Strategy huge success as COP president and three referendums, and I have worked for three when the UK plays host later this year. different Prime Ministers and even had two tilts at the The result of the EU referendum in June 2016 is right top job myself. During that time, we have learned a lot. up there with England winning the rugby world cup First, there is the value of a punchy catchphrase, from 16 years ago and with the look on John Bercow’s face “long-term economic plan”—remember that?—to “take when I told him to apologise for calling me a stupid back control” and “get Brexit done”, or as we like to woman, but it is a bit behind the happiness of my say, “got Brexit done.” But it is the action behind those wedding day. Not surprisingly, the leadership election words that has given us the highest employment there that followed is also forever etched in my memory. My has ever been, a superb Conservative majority, and a own part in Brexit was always about doing what I free and independent United Kingdom. thought was best for the UK. Whatever has been said I have also learned the value of knowing exactly what about it, my decision to withdraw from the final two you are voting for. For example, colleagues, if your was to give the country the urgent certainty it needed. I Whip tells you, as a newbie MP, to go through the Aye am tempted to say something about a mother, but I am Lobby and vote for something called the Fixed-term just not going there. Parliaments Act, just say no. The House has learned a As the new Environment Secretary in 2016, it was lot about “Erskine May”, from the precise meaning of amazing to set up the huge Brexit project in the Department “forthwith” to the specific purpose of Standing Order to deliver for farmers and fishing communities the bright No. 24, and even how a Speaker should vote in the event futuretheywerepromised,todevelopthe25-yearenvironment of a tie. But the key lesson for me has been the importance plan, to ban the sale of modern ivory, to create the first of focusing on your beliefs and behaving with honour everlitterstrategyandtointroduceCCTVinslaughterhouses. whatever the cost. When I arrived in this place, bright Those are just a few of the highlights. eyed and bushy tailed if not strictly youthful after Throughout the time I spent in her Cabinet, I fully 25 years in finance, my ambitions were for what I called supported my right hon. Friend the Member for my three Bs: Brussels, banks and babies. Maidenhead (Mrs May) in her determination that Brexit Brussels, or Brexit, started out as an enthusiastic should mean Brexit. During my two years as Leader of attempt to reform the EU from inside. I set up the Fresh the House of Commons after the 2017 election, the Start project with my hon. Friend the Member for challenges of a hung Parliament were so evident right from Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) and my right hon. day one. Delivering pizza was hard enough; delivering Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Brexit proved nigh on impossible. In spite of that, Eustice), with support from 200 colleagues. We set out amazingly we achieved Royal Assent on almost 60 Bills the case for EU reform, but it soon became clear that and passed more than 600 pieces of secondary legislation that was not on offer, and the rest is history. to prepare for Brexit. But like the proverbial swan, while That time coincided with my first ever rebellion against we were gliding on the surface, the business managers a three-line Whip, as one of 81 Conservatives to vote for were paddling furiously underneath. I pay tribute to a referendum on EU membership, leading to media each of them and to my superb private office. speculation that I had told the Chancellor, George When the harassment and bullying scandal hit Parliament Osborne, to—if you will forgive me, Mr Speaker—“eff in 2017, I was so proud to pull together the cross-party off”. Well, I can assure you that there is only one person coalition that devised the independent complaints and to whom I might be tempted to provide such frank grievance scheme, with the clear goals that everyone advice, and that would not include any former or current who works in or visits Parliament should be treated Chancellor, and certainly not any current Speaker. with dignity and respect, and that confidentiality should [Laughter.] underpin everything. My second B, banks, was a personal mission after As Leader of the House, I had one of the most seeing the damage done by the financial crisis and beautiful offices in the Palace; its only limitation was Labour’s lack of oversight. As a new MP elected to the the rat living in my waste paper basket. So when a Treasury Committee, I could hold the banks to account legislative slot appeared for the restoration and renewal over LIBOR rigging, stop their plans to scrap chequebooks Bill, we grabbed it. Preserving this iconic Palace as the and challenge our brand new rock star Bank of England seat of our democracy for future generations will be a Governor,as he was described at the time, over quantitative huge achievement for all those involved, and I wish them easing and the euro crisis. success. 839 Personal Statement 4 MARCH 2020 Personal Statement 840
[Andrea Leadsom] In the new leadership election, a number of candidates, myself included—supported by my great friends the A long-awaited change that I was so glad to introduce hon. Members for Daventry and for South Derbyshire was to give all Members of this House the same right as (Mrs Wheeler)—sought to offer a way forward for the workers across the country to spend time with their country, but after defeat in the first round, I gave my newborn or adopted babies, which we did via a new wholehearted support to the Prime Minister. I genuinely proxy voting system. believe he is the right person to seize the opportunities Which brings me to the third of my three Bs: babies. that await us outside the EU, and it was an honour to As many in this House know, better support for the serve as Business Secretary in his first Cabinet. early years is essential to levelling up, to solving health Brexit readiness was the urgent priority, but setting a inequalities and to promoting lifelong emotional well- new, clear direction for the Department for Business, being. In 2011, I launched the “1,001 critical days” Energy and Industrial Strategy was top of my agenda. campaign with support from every party in the House, With my ministerial team, we agreed our mission to many Members of the other place and almost every early build a stronger, greener United Kingdom and, to achieve years stakeholder. Frank Field, the late Dame Tessa that, our priorities—first, that the UK will lead the Jowellandthehon.MembersforWashingtonandSunderland world in tackling global climate change; secondly, that West(MrsHodgson),forManchesterCentral(LucyPowell) we will solve the grand challenges facing our society; and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) always worked and thirdly, that we will quite simply make the UK the on a cross-party basis, and I am grateful to them. best place in the world to work and to grow a business. I set up PIP UK as a charity that would provide One key observation I would highlight from my six support across the country for families struggling with months in BEIS, and that is that our climate change a new baby. I pay huge tribute to my hon. Friend the ambitions are not just about doing the right thing: I Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), believe there is also a huge early mover advantage. UK who took over my early years campaigns and charity science and innovation could make the UK green tech responsibilities when I joined the Government. He has sector as big in years to come as UK financial services done a brilliant job for so many years. are today, and I am confident that my right hon. Friend As Leader of the House, the former Prime Minister the Secretary of State will seize this opportunity. asked me to chair an inter-ministerial group looking at The last general election showed that when people early years and how the Government could provide said in 2016 that they wanted to leave the EU, they better support. The team spent a year researching existing really did mean it, and I applaud the Prime Minister for provision, from health visiting to breastfeeding advice his single-minded focus on getting Brexit done. For my and from talking therapies to parenting groups, and own part, I will now focus my attention in Parliament Select Committees held detailed inquiries into the impact on that third B—babies—and I look forward to renewing of early years experiences on later outcomes. There is my passion for giving every baby the best start in life. no doubt that a focus on this area could be life-changing When the Prime Minister asked me to step aside, he also for millions. gave me his word that he would enable me to take So resigning as the Leader of the House last summer forward the early years work, and I am delighted that was a tough decision, driven by my concern that the the wheels are in motion. I heartily congratulate him withdrawal agreement Bill as then proposed, with the and Carrie on their decision to do their own bit of early potential for a second referendum, would not have years research—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister did delivered our exit from the EU. As Leader of the House, not write it. I would have had to bring that Bill forward and I could I will of course continue to work hard for my fabulous not in all conscience do so. I was sorry to see the South Northamptonshire constituency,and I look forward resignation of my right hon. Friend the Member for to spending some more quality time with my family. It Maidenhead, the leadership of our country and party has been an incredible 10 years, and it ain’t over yet. once again being challenged by the decision on the EU. There is no greater honour than to serve community No one could have worked harder than her and I feel and country, and I will continue to do so with pride. sure that history will judge her kindly. 841 4 MARCH 2020 842
Point of Order June Bank Holiday (Creation) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 12.48 pm No. 23) Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): On a point of order,Mr Speaker.As there have been further allegations 12.49 pm today about the conduct of the Home Secretary, I Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I beg to wondered if you could advise on how Parliament could move, initiate a genuinely independent inquiry into the conduct That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for an of the Home Secretary towards civil servants in her annual national public holiday on the Friday nearest to 23 June; Departments. and for connected purposes. I thank my excellent senior parliamentary assistant, Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Lady for giving me Jordan Ayres, for his help with this. notice of the point of order, but it is not a point of This public holiday will be called United Kingdom order for me, as she well knows. I understand it is an Day. In the recent Queen’s Speech, the Government attempt to raise what is a matter of debate, but it is not included an employment Bill, which is intended to for me as Chair. “Protect and enhance workers’ rights” in the UK post Brexit, and one very important issue BILL PRESENTED that the Government should consider when enhancing workers’ rights is that of public holidays. In England INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT (WOMEN’S SANITARY and Wales, we have only eight of those each year. We PRODUCTS)BILL have the lowest number of bank holidays in Europe— Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Germany has nine; France, Poland and Italy have 11; Wendy Chamberlain, supported by Christine Jardine, Greece and Belgium have 12; Austria has 13; Malta has Wera Hobhouse, Layla Moran, Daisy Cooper, Munira 14; and Cyprus has 17. In the ranking of public holidays Wilson, Sarah Olney, Alex Davies-Jones, Claire Hanna throughout the world, the UK is drastically low, at and Karin Smyth, presented a Bill to require the Secretary 226th out of 246 countries. of State to report on the use of official development Given that ours is the fifth largest economy in the assistance to increase the availability of women’s sanitary world, and given that we have world-leading experts on products; and for connected purposes. medical research, financial services, aerospace technology, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on artificial intelligence, electronic systems and much more, Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 100). it is time that the Government recognised the tremendous work carried out by British people. If we are serious about wanting to enhance workers’ rights, let us at least create one extra bank holiday. Critics will argue that businesses will have to absorb an extra day of paid leave for their workers, but every four years, owing to the leap year, millions of people up and down the country already work an extra day for free on 29 February. I spent more than 30 years in business, and anyone who has run a business knows that its success is down not to them, but to the quality and productivity of their employees. Companies do not succeed by making workers work as for many hours as possible; they succeed if their employees are happy and productive. Apart from those in Northern Ireland, there are no bank holidays between May and August, and a bank holiday in June would help to break up that long gap. Workers would have a day off to look forward to, at a time when the weather should be good, which would not only have a positive effect on their health and wellbeing, but be a great boost to their productivity, in turn helping businesses to thrive and prosper. There are a number of reasons why the Friday nearest to 23 June each year should be the new bank holiday. First, the second Monday in June is Her Majesty’s official birthday. She is the longest-serving monarch in our history, and this would be a fantastic opportunity to celebrate her service and dedication to our great country. Moreover, the Queen was crowned in June. Throughout the intervening time, she has been a steadfast and devoted monarch. It would be fitting to allow the people of the United Kingdom to celebrate Her Majesty’s birthday, all her wonderful achievements, and the way in which she guides the country through all its highs and lows. 843 June Bank Holiday (Creation)4 MARCH 2020 June Bank Holiday (Creation) 844
[Mr Peter Bone] As for the current Government, they have been quite sniffy about my Bill to create a new bank holiday Since 2003, 23 June has already been recognised as entitled United Kingdom Day, which has rather surprised United Nations Public Service Day, so it is a wonderful and disappointed me. I can understand the former opportunity to pay tribute to the fantastic people who Government’s reservations, as they always saw the UK’s work in our public services—those in our national leaving the EU as a duty rather than an opportunity. health service, armed forces, police, fire services and However,the present Government wholeheartedly believe schools, and all the many, many others who are unsung in it, so my question to them would be, “Why not mark heroes. Unfortunately, however, the occasion has barely this great democratic event?” been recognised in the United Kingdom, and I believe it Finally,whydowenotwecelebrateourUnitedKingdom? is time we corrected that. Millions of people devote Wedo not have a day to do so. Many countries throughout their lives to public service and make great sacrifices for the world celebrate their national day with a public the good of the country. They deserve our thanks and holiday. For example, France has Bastille Day, Canada recognition for their services, and by creating this public has Canada Day, Sweden has the National Day of holiday, we would be giving them just that. Sweden,andtheUnitedStates,of course,hasIndependence Of course, 23 June 2016 was the day on which the Day. However, there is no day in the year on which we United Kingdom voted on our membership of the celebrate the Union of our four great nations as one European Union, in the largest act of democratic United Kingdom. I believe that that should be corrected, participation that the country has ever seen—33,551,983 and that the people of this country should be able to people voted in the referendum. According to the Office come together and rejoice as one. I do not believe that for National Statistics, that figure is higher than that there is anyone in our great United Kingdom who does of the whole UK workforce. During the referendum, not support either the monarchy, the referendum, our I worked alongside my hon. Friend the Member for public services, or the Union—surely everyone supports Corby (Tom Pursglove) and Councillor Helen Harrison, at least one of them—but if there is a handful of people travelling the length and breadth of the United Kingdom who reject all those things, they can always work on on behalf of the cross-party campaign group Grassroots United Kingdom Day. Out. Whether we were in Glasgow, Newport, Belfast or London, and whether the people whom we met were big Question put and agreed to. Brexiteers or real remainers, the public were energised. Ordered, Fundamentally, the people of the United Kingdom That Mr Peter Bone, Mr John Baron, Sir Christopher were engaged. Many felt for the first time that their vote Chope, Philip Davies, Dr Julian Lewis, Andrew Rosindell, really mattered, and, indeed, many voted for the first Nigel Mills, Esther McVey, Graham Stringer, Henry time. Smith, Sammy Wilson and Mr William Wragg present Whether those people felt happy or sad about the the Bill. outcome, nothing in history has invigorated the country as much as that political debate. The outcome of the Mr Peter Bone accordingly presented the Bill. vote has changed our relationship with Europe forever. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on We did not do this through revolution, we did not do it Friday 26 June, and to be printed (Bill 101). through war, and we did not do it through violence. Millions of people did not lose their lives. Instead, it was done peacefully—it was done through the ballot Mr Bone: I thought that that date would be appropriate, box. I remember the Cameron Government saying, Mr Speaker, as United Kingdom Day would fall on it “The people aren’t interested in the EU,” and, “We this year. should stop banging on about Europe.” How wrong Mr Speaker: Friday 26 June, then, as a possibility. could they be? 845 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 846
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): I recently visited a Opposition Day natural flood management project in the Wychwoods, in my constituency, a partnership project with local 5TH ALLOTTED DAY councils, Wild England and many others, involving flood diversion, wildlife creation, habitat, leaky dams and so forth. It has been very valuable in protecting the Flooding villages of the Wychwoods. Is this something we could see much more of elsewhere? Mr Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. Luke Pollard: Having more natural solutions to flooding is part of the solution; it is not the sole solution, but it is 12.59 pm a very important part, and I will come on to that in a Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/ moment. Co-op): I beg to move, Our motion makes a very simple ask—one that I am That this House notes the damage caused by Storms Ciara, amazed but not surprised that Ministers are running Dennis and Jorge and expresses thanks to workers from the from: that we have an investigation to learn the lessons Environment Agency, emergency services, local councils and from the floods, an investigation that will seek to protect volunteers; and calls for Ministers to set up an independent more homes and businesses in the future, an investigation review into the floods, including the Government’s response, the adequacy of the funding provided for flood defences and prevention, that will look at the difficulties people encounter in difficulties facing homes and businesses with getting insurance buying affordable insurance for their homes and businesses and what lessons need to be learnt in light of the climate emergency and in receiving timely pay-outs, an investigation into and the increased likelihood of flooding in the future. what measures are required from Government to fund It is a pleasure to move this motion on flooding on flood protections and upstream catchment management behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition. Flooding has measures and to resource emergency responses. devastated our communities after three successive storms— When choosing the wording of the motion, the Ciara, Dennis and Jorge—each compounding and Opposition had two choices: we could have chosen deepening the damage caused by the storm that preceded wording that went hard on a part-time Prime Minister it. I start by paying my respects to those who lost their who was missing in action throughout the floods, a lives as a result of these storms. I also thank all those part-time Prime Minister who refused to call a Cobra involved in mitigating and fighting the floods: our fire meeting and unlock the scale of funding necessary for and rescue service, police, local councils, the Environment flooded communities, a part-time Prime Minister who Agency, and all who have helped to protect homes and failed to show national leadership when it was required; businesses, rescue people and animals from rising flood or we could choose wording that could unify the House waters, and reinforce flood defences. The motion thanks in a sensible effort to learn the lessons, calmly and them for their service. sincerely, from this disastrous series of floods. Labour The motion also pays tribute to the work of the BBC chose to rise above that partisan debate, which is why in keeping communities informed about flooding incidents, every single Member of the House should feel able to diversions and emergency measures. BBC local radio, in support our motion. How is learning the lessons from particular, but BBC Online as well, have been invaluable an incident—in a review of what actions took place, lifelines to those communities under water. I hope the what actions did not work as well as was hoped and of Secretary of State will add his voice to mine in thanking where improvements could be made—not a sensible them when he gets to his feet. and proportionate step to take after a national emergency It would be very easy to dismiss the recent flooding as such as the recent floods? a freak accident, an act of God, and leave it at that, but we need to take a difficult step and recognise that more Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I represent could have been done. As the climate crisis produces the most flood prone constituency in the country—my more severe weather more often, we will be having more constituents are presently under 400 million cubic metres flooding more often, so we need to learn the lessons. of water. How does the hon. Member envisage this inquiry working with the section 19 inquiries already Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): As the climate emergency commenced in my area and in many other flooded produces more and more flooding, so flooding will areas, given that their purpose is to determine exactly become more frequent, and yet the resources for the those things. Environment Agency have been severely cut over the last decade. Does the hon. Member agree we need long-term, not just short-term, funding for the Environment Agency? Luke Pollard: There will be local inquiries and there will be different agencies looking at their own responses, Luke Pollard: The hon. Member pre-empts my speech. but we need an overarching investigation into the whole It is important that we have a long-term plan for response—the consequences of austerity, the flood flooding with long-term funding attached to it so that we prevention measures that could and should be taken, can protect communities at risk of flooding. the fact that flooding will become more frequent, and We know that more could have been done to ensure so on. That is what is on the table in the motion today that our fire and rescue services were fully equipped to and what I hope hon. Members on both sides will vote for. deal with this national emergency; that more could have been done to put in place long-term flood defences; and Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): In light of that more could have been done to slow down the impact the fact that places such as the Calder Valley have had of the climate emergency. three 100-year floods in the last seven and a half years, 847 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 848
[Craig Whittaker] was before. I am sure he will welcome that fact. It is a great example of the Government working with the does the hon. Member not think that another review would industry to help solve this problem. only cost more money and waste more time? We need action. We already have this information. We know Luke Pollard: Flood Re has resulted in some exactly what happened in the floods. We had four times improvements—the hon. Gentleman is right about that— the monthly average rainfall in 24 hours. but it does not insure homes or provide cover for homes built since 2009, and he will know that it does not Luke Pollard: I agree we need action, but it was include support for small businesses, so there are huge action we did not get during the floods. It was action we holes in the scheme that need to be filled. We need a required from the Prime Minister to call a Cobra meeting scheme that works. At the moment, Flood Re is not that we did not get. It was action to unlock the necessary delivering as was originally intended for all affected funding that we did not get. I agree we need action and communities. The Government are carrying out a review hope he will support this motion so that we get a lessons of the Flood Re scheme, and I urge Ministers to encourage learned review that helps Ministers to make better it to report quickly, because we need the Flood Re decisions next time and get the action he desperately scheme to work properly to ensure that there are no wants. gaps in it. The review we are asking for would look at how we The reason that we are calling for a review today is learn lessons as a country, how the Government learn that the flood waters will, we hope, soon subside and lessons and how the work and innovations of local the camera crews will pack up, but as the media agenda communities can be recognised, but the Government’s moves on, the damage, disruption and destruction of amendment seeks to do only one thing: not learn the the floods will remain for those communities that have lessons of the flooding. It would delete the lessons been affected. It will take many months for those learned review and silence the voices of flooded communities to recover, but we know from past floods communities. I want the voices of those communities that it will actually take many years for the damage to under water heard in the review we are proposing. I be undone, for payments to be received and for the want to hear from the small business owners in Telford mitigations to be put in place. That is why a lessons whose shops have been flooded about the difficulties learned review is so important. they face replacing stock when insurance companies We know that the Prime Minister was missing during refuse to insure them. I want to hear from the farmers the floods, but he now has an opportunity to create a next to the River Severn who fear that their crops will lessons learned review to learn the lessons of what has have been destroyed by the water damage in their fields. happened. However, he has decided against doing that. I want to hear from the homeowners in west Yorkshire We know that the Conservatives’ political choice to who have yet again had to wash dirty water from their implement a programme of brutal austerity over the homes, wash the smell of sewage from their homes, past 10 years has made the fight against the climate replace their furniture and carpets and worry about crisis so much harder. The Environment Agency has whether the insurance will pay out and how much the again and again asked for extra money—£1 billion a premiums will be next year, if they are to be covered at year just to mitigate the impacts of floods and defend all. I want to hear the voices of the emergency services our communities. We need long-term structural change who have had their numbers cut and cut again by years if we are to combat future floods, including restoring of Tory austerity. I want to hear from the Welsh coal nature in uplands, ending the rotational burning of mining communities who are now living in fear of a peatlands, implementing proper catchment area landslide from water-sodden spoil tips. management strategies and building proper flood defences I want to hear from all of them in this review, and yet where appropriate. All these changes need genuine funding Ministers have proposed an amendment that says they and a long-term plan. will not have a lessons learned review, will not look at what worked well and what did not, and will not ask But it is not just the Environment Agency that has communities what works for them. Every Tory MP who been cut; our local councils have too, and our fire and votes against our motion will be doing something very rescue services. There is a regional disparity in the cuts simple: refusing to listen and learn the lessons of the for fire and rescue services as well. Across England, flooding and refusing to improve their response to 23% of our firefighters have been lost in Tory cuts since flooding in a calm and independent manner. Those 2010, but West Yorkshire, where some of the most under water communities, many of which are represented severe flooding has happened, has lost over a third of by Conservative MPs, will wonder what happened to its firefighters in austerity cuts. I know that my hon. their Members of Parliament. When given an opportunity Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) to get the voice of those communities heard, they will has raised this issue directly with Ministers before, but I have decided to turn against that—that is not leadership. would like to invite the Secretary of State to look again at whether fire and rescue services need a statutory duty Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con): The hon. around flooding, as they have in Scotland and Wales. Member talked about the role of insurance companies. It is also important that we look at the effect of the I chair the all-party group on insurance and financial flooding on our farmers. That includes considering services and work quite closely with Flood Re. Since it short-term actions such as a derogation of crop was launched in 2016, Flood Re has been a great diversification and a reinstatement of the farming recovery example of the Government and the insurance industry fund to mitigate the damage that flooding has caused. working together: 300,000 more properties have now The Secretary of State came unstuck at the NFU conference been insured and four out of five properties with previous and answered concerns about the three-crop rule very flood claims can now get insurance at half the price it poorly, but there is now a genuine opportunity to help 849 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 850 farmers by using the powers that he already has to acknowledges that following the National Flood Resilience Review support them. In the long term, we need to ensure that in 2016 there were further improvements through the establishment our farmland is used sensibly to prevent flooding and to of the National Flood Response Centre and improved weather restore the ability to keep more water upstream. and flood forecasting capabilities, but recognises that extreme weather events are becoming more frequent and that further We also need to recognise the need for change on investment in flood defence infrastructure will be necessary in the match-funding. I have raised this matter before. Poorer years ahead.” communities should not be asked to match the same as We have had three storms in three weeks affecting our wealthier communities, because we know that in that Union, from Cornwall right up to the north of Scotland situation the wealthier communities have their flood and Northern Ireland, with winds of up to 70 mph and defences funded and the poor ones do not. My hon. waves of snow, ice and rain, making this the wettest Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) has February on record. Many areas have already received raised this in relation to her city time and again, but she more than double their average rainfall for February. has still not had a satisfactory answer. The Budget next Some have received four times the average monthly week is an opportunity for Ministers to fund flood rainfall and others have experienced a month’s worth defences properly. I would like to see the Budget used as of rain in just 24 hours. Eighteen river gauges across a climate budget to recognise the true scale of the 13 rivers recorded their highest levels on record during, climate crisis and have funding directed accordingly. I or triggered by, Storms Ciara, Dennis or Jorge. These suspect we will not have that, but I hope there will be are records that no one wants to see broken. Even if some mention of flooding. I hope that funding will be there are no further significant storms in March, it directed at those communities that are currently under could still take three to four weeks for water to drain from water and that a long-term plan is put in place in relation the washlands in the East Yorkshire area. to this. These storms at the end of an incredibly wet winter We have our criticisms of the Government, and the have brought consequences across the country as river Prime Minister in particular, for failing to act with the systems were overwhelmed. Nothing can diminish the seriousness that the climate emergency requires, but suffering felt across our country in communities affected setting that aside, we have before us in this motion a by recent storms.Experiencing flooding, especially repeated modest proposal to learn the lessons of the three storms flooding, is traumatic and distressing for the communities and to conduct an independent review into what happened. affected, and sadly over 3,400 properties have been We owe it to those communities that are currently under flooded this February, with significant damage caused. water, those that have been flooded and those that are repairing the damage from the storms to listen to them and to do everything in our power to learn the lessons John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the Secretary to ensure that it does not happen again. of State agree that too much building on floodplains is I say to every Tory MP whose communities are under not helpful and that in future we should be much more water and who votes against this modest ask that I wish restrictive and then try to deal with the backlog problem? them well on their return to their flooded communities. I wish them well in explaining why a review into the George Eustice: My right hon. Friend makes an lessons learned will not be happening and why they important point. The Environment Agency is a statutory voted against it. I wish them well in explaining to the consultee on all planning applications. people whose homes and businesses were flooded why This is a live incident, so I urge vigilance as we they are denying them a voice. I wish them well in that, monitor the situation and move into a recovery phase. I because they have the chance today to vote for such an would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the independent review, and for those flooded communities, work of the Environment Agency, local authorities and that will be a very modest ask as they scrub their floors emergency services, including the fire brigade, which to clean up the sewage that has come through the pipes, has been engaged extensively, the paramedics and the as they repair their homes and as they work out how to many voluntary groups that have played a role and, of restore the stock in their businesses that have been so course, local TV and radio, which have played their damaged. For them, this is a modest ask, and it is part—[Interruption.] And the BBC, which is a great part something that should be supported by everyone in this of local TV and radio. House. I hope that Tory MPs will reflect on this before they back the Government’s amendment to not learn I have been in close contact with the Environment the lessons of the flooding incidents. I hope that, as a Agency every single day. More than 1,000 of its staff Parliament, we can come together on this. I hope that have been deployed across the country every day, putting the warm words that will be no doubt come from the up temporary barriers, clearing rivers of debris—a Secretary of State at the Dispatch Box in a moment can continuing role for the EA—and helping with evacuations be added to with the action that is so desperately needed. where necessary. They have been deployed alongside I commend this Labour motion to the House. around 80 military personnel who stepped in to assist in certain circumstances. Wales has also seen significant 1.14 pm impacts, with more than 1,000 properties flooded. The The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural EA remains in close contact with the Welsh Government, Affairs (George Eustice): I beg to move an amendment, who are offering aid and support it might need to leave out from “volunteers” to end and insert: respond to their incidents. Some Members have expressed concern about the stability of some coal tips. My colleague, “acknowledges that following the Pitt Review in 2008, local and national response was significantly improved through the establishment the Secretary State for Wales, has been in dialogue with of Local Resilience Forums which have led to partnership working the Welsh Government about this and, following that, and in addition, the Cross Review in 2018 which led to the we directed the national Coal Authority to conduct an publication of new guidance on multi-agency flood plans; further urgent assessment of those tips where there were concerns. 851 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 852
Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): On the point about the partnership funding to develop that phased approach. coal tips, will the Secretary of State confirm that this is My hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire not just a review of where they all are, and that the UK (Harriett Baldwin) and the local county councillor have Government will fund the safety of those tips to reassure been keen advocates of the proposed scheme and have residents living in fear across constituencies represented discussed it with me. by three Members here today, including my hon. Friend In Selby, where there were concerns about water over- the Member for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter)? topping a flood retention bank, the Army were on standby but, in the event, Environment Agency and local authority George Eustice: I know that the Secretary of State for staff deployed 3,000 sandbags to top up the defences, Wales has had discussions with the Welsh Government. build the bank higher and ensure that there was protection. In their discussions last week, there was no request for funds as it was too early to ascertain what help, if any, Turning now to Shrewsbury and Bewdley, where might be needed, but once that work is concluded by demountable barriers along the Severn played an important the national Coal Authority, they will be in a better role in reducing the impacts, there are four phases of position to know that. demountable barriers deployed to protect infrastructure and properties in Shrewsbury, and all were deployed in Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I think the Secretary time for Storm Dennis. In Bewdley, we also deployed of State is slightly misunderstanding the point here. demountable barriers to complement the permanent This is not about the financial request from the Welsh defences and temporary barriers in part of the town. Assembly to this Government. This is about the tips in Environment Agency staff were present throughout the constituencies such as mine, where there is significant flooding, checking those barriers and pumping water concern that there may be further movement and greater back into the river. destabilisation of the slag heaps. That is the responsibility of his Government—the Department for Business, Energy Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I thank the Secretary and Industrial Strategy—and we need to ensure that the of State for talking about my constituency, and thank Government are doing everything to ensure that the the floods Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for people in my constituency are safe. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Rebecca Pow), for George Eustice: That is correct, and the national being there to see the demountable barrier being put up Coal Authority sits within BEIS. We have directed it to on the very first day. The demountable barriers are one carry out an urgent assessment of those mines. of the finest gifts that one of the best leaders of the Labour party, Mr Tony Blair, has ever given us—in The area that was worst affected by Storm Ciara was 2001, I think, with an £11 million investment. But the the Calder valley. Hebden Bridge flooded after Storm problem for Bewdley remains Beales Corner, on the Ciara, but not after Storm Dennis. Many businesses other side of the bank. This highlights the difference there have adapted their buildings to flooding, which between what is a demountable barrier and what is a were back trading after a few days or weeks. The military dangerous temporary barrier, which gave way and was were deployed to Ilkley in West Yorkshire, where 700 metres overtopped. A not-very-good approach was developed of temporary barriers were erected. They also worked at Beales Corner, which is the property-led defences. in the Calder valley, building a temporary defence and I do not think they worked in the event of this flood. sandbagging properties. The scheme in Mytholmroyd is due to be completed this summer, and further schemes George Eustice: My hon. Friend makes an important are in the design and consultation phase at Hebden point. I was going to go on to say that the temporary Bridge, Brighouse, Sowerby Bridge and other locations barriers deployed to the Beales Corner area of Bewdley along the Calder valley. were overtopped by the sheer volume of water flowing The area most severely affected by Storm Dennis was through the town. Environment Agency staff deployed the Severn catchment. Since 2007, many parts of the pumps to mitigate the overtopping, but eventually this Severn have been protected by demountable barriers. operation was overwhelmed. I know that staff have Those barriers are deployed to hard standings and continually provided updates to residents via local media, permanent pillars along the river bank and removed with live-streamed videos from site and post-strategic when the risk of flooding recedes, so that people can command meetings to inform the public. gain access to the river for cycle paths and to prevent views from being affected. Those demountable barriers Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): It is have been particularly popular with communities and interesting to hear the individual cases, but does the have been effective during this most recent episode. Secretary of State not accept that it is 12 years since the While some homes were flooded, the defences put in place Pitt review and that it is only another 10 years—less have protected around 50,000 homes. than that period—until we expect and predict that Tenbury Wells was the first place to be affected by climate change will result in a 1.5° increase in temperature? Storm Dennis and had previously flooded in October. Therefore, we want not a microcosmic look at individual Soon after flood alerts were issued, community information demountables, but an overview of the strategic difference officers assisted residents in the town. Sadly, the area of climate change will make—namely, where can we and Tenbury is not suitable for temporary barrier deployment should we defend? Where can we not defend? Where do due to the length of defence needed, significant access we have to change land use management? Where do we issues and the need for pumps to mitigate water seepage have to have rain water capture in urban environments? on uneven ground. However, in our future programme, Where do we have to have underground tunnels and so we are developing plans to deliver a scheme at Tenbury on? We need an overall review. We face massive and Wells protecting over 80 homes and 80 businesses and growing risk. He says, “Oh, let’s hope we don’t have more costing in the region of £6 million, and we are seeking bad weather.” That is— 853 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 854
Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman wishes to recommended that every local authority should have a make a speech, but he is taking his own time away. formal plan of action to respond to flood risk in its area. George Eustice: I am going to address all those points The substantive recommendations in all three of those of review later, but I wanted to take the opportunity, reviews have been implemented, and it is because they since this does not always happen, to effectively acknowledge have been implemented that the response on the ground some of the great work that has been done on the ground to these extraordinary weather events has been so effective by the Environment Agency and our emergency services. and rapid. The Government amendment to the motion In Ironbridge, the substructure of the soil along the therefore recognises and corrects what might be an riverbank sadly does not lend itself to the demountable oversight in the Opposition motion, which is to recognise barriers that were so effective in other towns, but temporary what has been done in response to previous reviews. barriers were deployed to contain the water that breached The Government amendment also corrects another the river bank, with 800 metres of temporary barriers omission from the Opposition motion, relating to funding. deployed along the Wharfage. Climate change means that extreme weather events are While most effects in the days after Storm Dennis becoming more frequent. were felt along the Severn, there was further heavy rain late last week, which led to major challenges in parts of Several hon. Members rose— Yorkshire, notably around the washlands at Snaith and George Eustice: I am going to make progress and East Cowick. The washlands are one of the oldest conclude. man-made flood defence systems in the country, dating back some 400 years. However, the sheer volume of We are investing £2.6 billion in flood defences—over rainfall meant that they were overwhelmed. We have 1,000 flood defence schemes to better protect 300,000 deployed 48 multi-agency pumps in operation across homes by 2021. To date, we have completed 600 of those the Aire washlands, as water levels start to drop, to schemes, protecting over 200,000 homes. Were it not for dewater homes. There is an urgency to this work, since projects such as those, 50,000 more homes would have next weekend we will also see peak seasonal tides on the been flooded in these recent events. east coast, which can lock rivers. We must therefore use However, there is more to do. That is why the the window of opportunity in the weeks ahead. Government have a manifesto commitment to spend even more on flood defence in the years ahead, committing The motion tabled by the Opposition suggests an £4 billion in this Parliament further to improve our independent inquiry. I am grateful for this opportunity resilience and our ability to manage such events. The to describe all the other inquiries that we have had on Government amendment, rather than proposing reviewing flood response over the last decade or so and what actions funding as the Opposition suggest, acknowledges the have been taken to implement those recommendations. need for further investment. Our manifesto already First, the Pitt review, which was alluded to by the hon. commits us to further investment. I hope that this Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) and which investment will not be opposed by Opposition Members. followed the 2007 floods, informed new laws better to manage flooding under the Flood and Water Management We are determined to be ready for the future, and we Act 2010. The crucial recommendations of the review know we must expect more frequent extreme weather in regarding flood response led to the establishment of local this country. So as well as investing even more money in resilience forums. flood defence, the Government are committed to leading a global response to climate change through our work Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Will my right around the world. As host of the next climate change hon. Friend give way? conference, COP26, we will urge nations to achieve net zero in a way that helps nature recover, reduces global George Eustice: I will on that point, but then I am warming and addresses the causes of these extreme going to make progress. weather events. Several hon. Members rose— Richard Graham: I am grateful. A lot of the Pitt review recommendations were implemented in Gloucester at Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): There will be a that time and have made a huge difference. My neighbours five-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches because a lot suffered terribly this year. None the less, not a single of Members have, quite rightly, shown an interest in home in Gloucester flooded, as a result of good work this important subject. by the Environment Agency and local councils. 1.30 pm George Eustice: My hon. Friend makes an important Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): I thank the hon. Member point. for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) Secondly, after the 2014 floods, another review was for moving this motion and for helping hon. Members led by Oliver Letwin. It led to a number of further on both sides of the House highlight the devastating improvements, including the establishment of a new impact of recent storms on communities across these national flood response centre, based out of the Cabinet islands. I support the motion and its ambition to establish Office, to ensure that cross-government decisions on an independent review of flooding, which seems to me operational matters were taken expeditiously. The review to be an uncontentious, non-political and constructive also led to improved flood forecasting capabilities. approach to a serious issue that affects all our communities. Thirdly, because there were concerns that some local As many of us in this Chamber will know from first- authorities were better prepared than others to meet the hand experience of supporting flood victims, flooding challenge of flood response, in 2018 the Cross review has many effects from the horrific effect of sewage 855 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 856
[Dave Doogan] badly affected areas in Scotland. That is in stark contrast to the Prime Minister, who spent the same period of backflow to the ever-present anxiety of wondering when flooding relaxing at Chequers. At such times of crisis, a the next episode will happen. This affects my constituents key role for a leader is to provide confidence to the in Angus, and we are right across the spectrum in publicandshowthemthattheirGovernmentareresponding. having successful flood mitigation measures installed Boris Johnson has utterly failed that simplest test of but also having communities that are still exposed to the leadership. full force of the weather. Scoping, funding and delivering In Scotland, the SNP Scottish Government will continue flood defence schemes is, of course, a challenging process, to work to support local authorities to deliver the actions as they are, after all, complex civil engineering projects. that protect our communities and businesses. Again, we come back to planning. Planning work is expected to Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): I am start on the 42 prioritised schemes. It is recognised that grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, as the those schemes might not be delivered, but it is important Secretary of State was unable to do so. for residents and constituents to understand that they We have funding for a flood defence scheme in my are planned for. constituency,but one of the barriers is that the Environment Regardless of where we live, work or legislate, innovation Agency does not have enough staff to bring the scheme has to take centre stage. A principal element of that has forward or to offer support. Should this not just be to be upstream aggradation and the retention of run-off, about physical infrastructure but about the Environment with more appropriate land management strategies that, Agency having more funding to expand its team? as a public good, landowners may be rewarded for and that will hold back deluge events from entering our Dave Doogan: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will main rivers and tributaries all at once. understand if I hesitate to comment on the Environment Simultaneously,we need to consider planning legislation Agency, as my part of these islands is much more in all the different elements of the United Kingdom to dependent on the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, make sure that, with the increasing pattern of people having which I am happy to talk up. I am aware of the genuine smaller gardens or no garden, there are corresponding concern among colleagues about the lag between the mitigation measures that will assist in the attenuation of establishment of a requirement and the delivery of a deluges and flood waters. system on the ground, which is something a review would wish to consider. Tenants and residents need to be protected and, as other hon. Members have mentioned, there needs to be These complex civil engineering projects are usually far greater investment in maintenance of the disaggregation towards the top end of cost and capital investment in of risk in insurance. Quite apart from the physical, local communities, and any assessment of return on tangible elements, anxiety is a cruel master when it comes that capital investment should, of course, be robust and to flooding, and insurance is directly connected to that. realistic. Having said that, there is a risk that, in assessing I accept what hon. Members have said about the progress the value for money of any proposed scheme, we use the that has been made, but it needs to be built upon and narrowest definition of value such as property prices or expanded. other one-dimensional and binary judgments. Finally, any review must work with all UK environment Planners and government, both local and national, agencies, including the Scottish Environment Protection must increasingly consider broader priorities such as Agency, to establish best practice and to foster the employment, cultural and community value, and the innovation we so desperately need. value of agricultural land in deciding whether to protect them. Moreover, any assessment that builds a business Several hon. Members rose— case for defence schemes on residential property prices and that seeks to use those property prices as the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The five-minute principal determinant will necessarily favour more affluent rule is now effective. areas of these islands for investment, rather than considering Just a gentle reminder: please do not refer to Members all areas equally and on their merits. by name. Refer to them either by their constituency or A much more preventive approach to sustainable by their official title. flood management and mitigation needs to be pursued, and pursued at pace, if we are to stand a realistic chance 1.37 pm of managing weather events that, hitherto, would have Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The constituency been classified as once-in-100-years events but are now in which I live and am proud to serve is the most apparently much more common. This dynamic endeavour flood-prone constituency in the country,as it is constituted requires government, local and national, to get a grip, on land drained by the Dutch some 400 years ago, many provide investment and transact innovation. of whose descendants continue to live in our area. We Every SNP Member wishes to pay tribute to the are at the bottom of the catchment, so I agree 100% with first-class response to the recent severe weather in our what the hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) says part of these islands by local authorities, emergency about the need for better management upstream. responders, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency We have seen numerous events in recent years, whether and, of course, the public who, in all our constituencies, the tidal surge of 2013, the flooding of 2010 and 2011 in went above and beyond what is reasonably expected of Goole or the flooding in December, which happened on individuals to help protect themselves and their neighbours. a smaller scale. Whether in Crowle, South Ferriby or InFebruary,theFirstMinisterof ScotlandvisitedHawick Burringham, or whether in Snaith, Cowick or Gowdall and the Minister for Rural Affairs and the Natural at the moment, we are repeatedly hit by incidents of Environment visited Newcastleton, two of the most flooding. 857 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 858
I begin by paying tribute to my constituents and how What we need now in my constituency is immediate they are currently responding to the incredible deluge in funding, into the future, to look at what we can do for Snaith and Cowick. I have been involved in flooding for the defences that have been so overrun on this occasion. many years as an MP, parish councillor and councillor, After the 2013 tidal surge, additional funding was made and I have never seen the inundation of water that we available to the communities in my area that had been now see in the washlands of the River Aire. devastated by that surge to allow them to take immediate My constituents are responding in an incredible way. defence action in the year or two afterwards. That was The Snaith church ladies and our wonderful vicar, outside the normal funding rules, and we benefited Eleanor Robertshaw—I sometimes call her the “commie from that in Reedness, which was overwhelmed in the tidal vicar” but we are good friends—have been providing surge, with immediate action to shore up and improve 24/7 support to those who have been evacuated and to the defence there. So may we please look at that issue? emergency service responders,with free food being provided May we also look at the funding for the section 19 by many businesses, including the Supreme coffee house inquiries that are already under way.My local East Riding in Goole. The response of the community has been of Yorkshire Council, because it has faced so many incredible. incidents in recent months, is now engaged in about I thank Vicky Whiteley and Snaith and Cowick Town four or five different inquiries, and funding that is a Council, the Snaith sports hall voluntary team and huge challenge for the local authority. A section 19 Andy McLachlan of the Cowick and Snaith internal inquiry into the flooding in the Snaith and Cowick drainage board for their work in supporting my constituents. washlands is under way, but we need funding for that. Andy and I have worked together on many flooding The recovery of costs is also an issue. Heating Snaith events over the years, and the response from the drainage priory church has already cost the church about £700 to board has, as ever, been first class. I also wish to thank £800, and possibly more. We are all doing what we can the fire and rescue service, including those who have to get donations in for that, and the Bellwin scheme come in from elsewhere, from places such as Cheshire might cover it, but there are direct costs here to the and West Yorkshire, and our ambulance service, which town council and to the church and sports hall—voluntary has been on hand with permanent resources. I should organisations—for the costs they have borne in being also thank the very many residents involved, the council open 24 hours a day and providing support to those who staff and the Environment Agency staff. The response have been evacuated. has been incredible. We are dealing with 4 million cubic Business support is also an issue. I served on the metres of water, or 800 million gallons, still there, in an Committee for the Flood Re Bill. Indeed, in 2013 I had area below sea level. We are defended by hundreds of to leave the Committee because of the flood warnings miles of defence banks in our area, and getting that in place in my constituency, including warnings for my away will be a big challenge. own house, when that tidal surge hit. We need extra support in terms of business insurance. I do not have John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): Although we must time to say everything I wanted to stay, but I beg that not be complacent, does my hon. Friend recognise that the national funding formula is looked at. We are at the in some parts of the country there have been successes? bottom of the catchment and we get everybody’s water; In the Carlisle area, through the work of the EA, the that water is coming to us, whether we like it or not. councils and the voluntary sector, and the success of the Although the current formula provides us with the best defences, we managed to avoided being flooded this year. defences and highest standards, it is not taking account of the number of properties we have versus the risk we Andrew Percy: Indeed. We have not wanted for money face. We need a change to that. We also need to look at for defence funding in recent years, including in Snaith, the EA’s role in flooding and whether we need a separate the community that is currently flooded. Only in 2015, body. We need to examine the Flood Re scheme. We millions of pounds of defence improvements were made, need to fund the national flood resilience centre, in my through the piling of the Snaith primary defence bank, area, the bid for which is with the Government—I have but that has been overtopped this time, as have our talked about that before. Finally, we need to look at secondary defences, on which we rely to keep us dry. It planning and at maintenance. is true to say that in some places these schemes have worked, and we have a scheme under way in South 1.44 pm Ferriby, but the water coming down the catchment in this latest incident has been on a scale we have never Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): seen before, just as the 2013 surge then was. It is extremely good of you to call me, Mr Deputy I agree with some of what was said by the shadow Speaker, so that I can say a little about the issue of Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Plymouth, flooding, why it has been so important to my constituency Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard). He is a nice guy, and how it has affected us, and add my unequivocal one of my favourite shadow Secretaries of State. Some voice to the call for more resources for this area. I also of the others are a bit bonkers, and I know that he wish to say that there are some legal, technical issues that agrees with me on that. I agree with much of what he the Government need to address in respect of flooding said about the need to review certain things, but he then and the management of waterways. went on to try to make some cheap political points It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Brigg about what is going on at the moment. There are things and Goole (Andrew Percy), who described the conditions we need to do differently, but I am not convinced that in his constituency and how flooding affects it. I therefore diverting millions of pounds, which could otherwise go wish to say a bit about the geography of my area. The to flood defences, to a massive inquiry is necessarily the towns of Stalybridge, Hyde, Dukinfield, Mossley and best way forward. I will say something on that in a Longdendale are on the eastern side of Greater Manchester, moment. at the border with Derbyshire. We are where the land 859 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 860
[Jonathan Reynolds] Austerity has also been an issue in this—that cannot be denied. I have seen it affect my constituency in two has begun to rise; the great moors of Wild Bank, specific ways. There are 44,000 road gullies in my borough Harridge Pike and Hobson moor are in my constituency. of Tameside and austerity has, in effect, meant that we People might recall that two years ago there were wildfires went down to having one gully machine and just two in that area, which tells us of the volatility of the weather highway engineers. That is in no way sufficient to cope patterns we are now receiving. with the gullies that need to be unblocked to make sure When we have these occasions of unprecedented that we are as resilient as can be. We can perhaps now rainfall—it seems to be unprecedented rainfall more look to increase that provision, but the false economy of often than not—the water comes down from those cuts, particularly to local government, should never have moors with a violence, intensity and power that has a got us to that position. severe impact on the communities based around those I also think we need to refer to planning enforcement. moors. In 2016 in particular,when we had severe flooding, New homes were mentioned in the Front-Bench areas such as Hollingworth, Millbrook and Micklehurst contributions. My understanding is that new homes should were incredibly badly affected, and not just in terms of not make any area more at risk of flooding, but there flooding; in one case, a property was almost washed away. are severe issues in this country as to whether planning This is not just about flooding; it is about land and property measures are met and whether we have the resources to being destroyed by the power of the floods that have hit enforce the measures that the Environment Agency wants those areas. The impact and burden on people of severe to see put in place if the plans go ahead. flooding is unparalleled and hard to compare with Finally, will the Minister respond to a specific point other things. One constituent told me that they had about legal responsibility for waterways? I understand been flooded once before and so every time they are the division of responsibility between the Environment faced with significant rainfall—obviously, that is a feature Agency, lead flood authorities—basically councils, in of our weather patterns in Greater Manchester—they areas like mine—and landowners, but I am not sure that just stay up at night waiting to be flooded again. That it is right to strictly define landowners as responsible for trauma and worry—the emotional as well as the financial culverts, or covered waterways. Many of my local towns burden—is extreme. We have to be doing more to ease expanded rapidly at the time of the industrial revolution, that burden on our constituents. and there are not good records from that time. Sometimes Since 2016, there has been a significant response in we do not even know the exact path of a culvert through my area. I know that colleagues will talk today about an area. Conveyancing should reveal that, but let us be how they have not had any resources at all, but we have honest: often it does not. had investment in my area. The Environment Agency I have one particular case in which a culvert collapsed has spent more than £1 million in Mossley, and my local during the 2016 floods—we do not know whether that council has spent more than £650,000. This has meant contributed to or was caused by the flooding—and we can have things such as large screens that we can put residents of one block of flats built on the parcel of across culverts to prevent them from getting blocked. In land through which the culvert runs are now being held some cases, tunnels have been built to manage the water responsible for costs that could reach more than £1 million. run-off on to highways. In one case, a culvert has been There are 90 flats in the development, but that would repaired and it is now monitored by CCTV 24 hours a still be a substantial cost. That is not fair for the people day. However, constituents ask the reasonable question: in Bramble Court in Millbrook. It is not the right way will these measures prevent this from happening again? to manage the risks. I am told by the Environment Of course, none of us can give that assurance, so Agency that we do not even know who is responsible for perhaps a better question would be: has everything that some culverts. Yes, we need resources, but the legal could be done been done? I do not think we are there definitions and responsibilities also need attention from yet, so although we have had investment in my area, I the Government. know it is not enough and therefore that we need more across the country. If we multiply the investment in my 1.50 pm area by the number of constituencies in the country, that tells us quickly that we do not yet have the level of Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): In 2007, support going into this that we all want to see. my constituency was badly flooded: three people tragically lost their lives, many lost their water supplies, quite a lot Wera Hobhouse: On mitigation of climate change and lost electricity and many people were out of their homes flood risk, the restoration of peatland is very important, for 12 months, living in caravans. It was a desperately and I know that the Government are committed to that. difficult time. Since then, a lot of good work has been The burning of peatland by the grouse shooting industry done in various parts of my constituency, which has is damaging, and businesses that counteract good measures certainly helped, but nevertheless we have been flooded have to be addressed. Does the hon. Gentleman agree many times since, including in the last week and last that it is important to engage with industries that are November. counteracting climate emergency measures? I wish to highlight two particular things that I feel really should be done. The first is relatively simple: we Jonathan Reynolds: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for should clear out ditches more regularly and maintain that intervention. Grouse shooting is a business in my drains better than we are, and we ought to consider constituency. I am not sure how much proportionality whether we should dredge all rivers, because I understand one can put on what she has described compared with that that has helped enormously in some areas of the other measures, but this has to be part of the conversation, country where it is done. We ought to revisit that policy. because many expert analyses have identified it is a factor. Therefore, it has to be looked at. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con) rose— 861 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 862
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con) I joined the Conservative party during Margaret Thatcher’s rose— time, and one of her great policies was on home ownership, with which I entirely agreed. Home ownership is a Mr Robertson: I have limited time, but I shall give fantastic aspiration, but we need to be careful about way briefly. where we build houses. Building houses for the sake of it will not actually make them more affordable. We risk Neil Parish: I thank my hon. Friend very much for compromising the green belt and building in flood risk giving way. There is no doubt that the dredging of the areas for no actual benefit to some of the people who River Parrett where it goes out to sea in Somerset has are looking to buy houses. been very effective; I wonder whether the Severn needs the same improvements. I referred to the site in my area where an industrial digger is sat in water; that is at a place called Twigworth Mr Robertson: I am grateful for that intervention. and Innsworth, where permission has been given not by the local council but by the inspector. The inspector Daniel Kawczynski: I am grateful to my hon. Friend looked at the application in December 2017 and should for giving way. As he will know, the River Severn has have rejected it, but the fact that the Environment flooded terribly in his constituency and mine. Does he Agency did not object to the development did not help. agree that the Government need a more holistic approach Everybody who lives in that area knows what a problem to managing the whole of the River Severn, from my it is going to cause. I shall name one person who knows constituency right down to his? what a problem it is going to cause: David Cameron. In February 2014, he visited the area. Why? Because the Mr Robertson: I thank both my hon. Friends for road was completely blocked because of flooding and those interventions, with which I agree. I must move on the fields where the development is now taking place quickly because of the shortness of time. were flooded. He declared then that building should not The other issue that I wish to raise is house building, take place in such areas. What has gone wrong? or any kind of building, in flood risk areas. It is causing I pin no blame at all on the new Secretary of State—he an awful lot of trouble. In my constituency, the current is brand-new to his position and I wish him well—but I joint core strategy proposes a 50% increase in the number ask him to revisit the existing policy on assessing whether of houses in the council area where I live. Not only does land is suitable for development. The surgery that I did that increase mean that green-belt land is seriously at the weekend was very busy, full of people coming to compromised, but we have a lot of flood risk areas. The complain about overdevelopment. I think the one message building of that number of houses in my area will cause that they would like me to give to the Secretary of State an awful lot of misery for very many people. is that we should review the policy before it is too late. I am concerned about our approach to building in Once we have built on land, we cannot unbuild on that flood risk areas. The Pitt report of some years ago was land. somewhat compromised: it said that yes, flood risk areas should be avoided, but it also said they should be Richard Graham: My hon. Friend and constituency avoided unless there was a need for a certain number of neighbour and I have recently discussed whether there houses. I do not think that that compromise is necessary, were possible solutions in building more capacity in the because when somebody is flooded for more than a Welsh hills to hold back water from the Severn. That year, they really do not want to see more development would also give the Government an opportunity to ask in their area. Severn Trent Water to transport some of the water by pipe down to the areas in the south-east that suffer from I am rather concerned about how the Environment a lack of water. Does my hon. Friend agree that that Agency makes its assessments. It uses maps that in my could be a useful contribution, saving his constituency view are not always accurate—they do not always reflect and mine from being flooded? the flood risk in an area—and it talks about frequencies, but the frequencies of flooding have changed, with Mr Robertson: My hon. Friend and neighbour makes flooding now much more frequent than it used to be. a good point. Back in 2007, it was not only the water Who knows where that trend will go in future? that fell in Tewkesbury that caused the problem; it was We have heard it said that we do not really build in also the water that came down from Wales. I pin no blame flood risk areas any more; we absolutely do. I have at all for that on Wales—I would not dare with you in shown the Secretary of State a photograph of an industrial the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker—but my hon. Friend digger preparing land in my constituency for houses—and makes a good and serious point with which I agree. the digger is stood in water. Around 2,000 houses are going to be built on that land, which is already sodden 1.58 pm and far too wet. It is a matter not only of whether the Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): It is a pleasure houses built on that land will flood, but of water to follow the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), displacement—will building on that land cause flooding who spoke powerfully about his local area and made for people in other areas? It is a serious consideration. some important points about planning. Just this week the Environment Agency said that Last November, my community was hit by severe “it isn’t always possible or practical to prevent all new development flooding that caused devastating damage to Barnsley, in flood risk areas”; and across South Yorkshire. Over a 24-hour period, well, that is going to cause an awful lot of problems for more rain fell than was expected for an entire month, very many people. causing mass disruption and damage. I pay tribute and We really ought to revisit the policy. I know the driver give thanks to the blue-light services, the local authority, behind it—I know that this Government and successive the Environment Agency, and the community groups, Governments have wanted to provide homes for people. volunteers and local people who responded. My constituents 863 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 864
[Stephanie Peacock] of flood catchment management plans, which were first launched in 2007. Many of them have still not come to now need assurances that everything is being done to proper fruition. Those plans will inform the six-year protect their homes, businesses and community spaces funding period, but no inquiry will deal with that. We from future floods. need to get the flood catchment management plans and One month ago, I led a Westminster Hall debate on some of their solutions actually delivered. flooding in South Yorkshire, voicing the concerns of people from my area. I called for investment in flood Craig Whittaker: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I defences to make our region more resilient to flooding, shall cover a number of those points later in my speech. and for the Prime Minister to make good on his It is for those reasons that I will not be voting for the commitment to convene an emergency summit on flooding Opposition’s motion but, just to show balance, I must in the north of England—he made that promise during say that the Government amendment is also a great the general election to the Mayor of the Sheffield city opportunity lost, and is of no comfort or consolation to region, my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central the thousands of people who have had their properties (Dan Jarvis). I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge flooded—in many cases, yet again. his work on this issue. First, I wish to mention the Government response. In Since November, Barnsley and its surrounding areas 2015, when the whole of the north of England was hit have been hit by two more storms, leading to more by flooding, the Government were quick to announce a flood damage. Community groups are unable to meet support package for each of those affected by floods, owing to waterlogged and damaged venues. Indeed, one whether homes or businesses. Given the scale of the of the local football clubs, Worsbrough Bridge FC, still devastation, Cobra was called and a package was does not have a pitch to play on. Action is needed announced in the first few days. This time, as the initial urgently if residents and business owners from my Storm Ciara damage was limited mainly to just the community are to feel safe and secure in the homes and Calder Valley, Cobra was not called, which I do not businesses for which they have worked their entire lives. have an issue with, and no package of support was The Government need to commit to giving short-term triggered. The next nine days were like pulling hens’ financial support to help those affected and to fund teeth. In trying to get a response from Government, and recovery efforts. Right now, flood victims are relying on after speaking to virtually every Department in Whitehall, the goodwill of their neighbours to get them through it was discovered that the package comes from four or this flooding crisis. More than half a million pounds five different Departments. has been donated by members of the public, local authority groups and community organisations to the Daniel Kawczynski: Will my hon. Friend give way? South Yorkshire Community Foundation. The fact that the Government will only match fund this is outrageous. Craig Whittaker: I will not. I am sorry, but I have too They have undercut efforts to help communities,households much to say. and businesses to recover. This is despite the fact that the Mayors of Doncaster and the Sheffield city region All Departments were sympathetic, but none was have said that £3 million is needed. able to trigger the package without the other. I also discovered that there was a package, but that the flooding I am proud to live in an area with so much community of 1,187 properties in the Calder Valley on its own does spirit. The generosity of my neighbours and friends, not qualify for support, because it does not hit the criteria. while not unsurprising, deserves recognition. This Friday, Will the Secretary of State agree to look at and amend I am meeting the Low Valley flooding group, which the support package so that we can have an off-the-shelf comprises residents who have joined together to help package that is automatically triggered for any constituency each other and to look at what can be done to prevent that suffers the devastation of flooding? Under such an future flooding. Flood victims need more funds now so arrangement, no constituency would be left waiting for that they can rebuild their lives, and the burden should nine days ever again. not fall on the victims. In addition to short-term financial aid, we need sustained investment to protect homes and I want to make it very clear that we do have three businesses from future extreme weather events. fully funded hard flood defence projects in the Calder Valley—one is partially completed and two are waiting 2.1 pm to start. We also have a series of works beyond those projects. Treesponsibility and Slow The Flow are two Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): I wish to start fabulous charities. One has planted thousands of trees by saying how disappointing it is again to see a great and has plans to continue planting trees around the opportunity lost in this Opposition day debate. The catchment, while dozens of volunteers work with Slow Opposition have, basically and plainly, just failed to ask The Flow on the leaky dams in the moors above. Grips the right questions. We do not need an independent are being blocked as part of moorland restoration in review to know what happened in the floods. Most MPs partnership with Natural England and landowners. whose constituencies were flooded this time, and many Yorkshire Water has trialled reducing reservoir levels times before, know exactly where all the water comes during times of heavy rain, but it will take a change of from in their constituencies. On top of that, we had four legislation to mandate that to happen. Hopefully, that times the monthly rainfall in just 24 hours.The information can happen through the Environment Bill, with the is already there; all a review would do is waste more amendments that my neighbour, the hon. Member for time and more money. Halifax (Holly Lynch), has put forward. Andrew Percy: My hon. Friend makes an important We have set aside money to build holding ponds, but point. The managed solution to these problems will come only four have been managed to be built. This is all from not an independent review, but the implementation good stuff, but we are just toying with it. If we are 865 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 866 serious about mitigating the risks of flooding, we need named—the flooding came all over again because the to do much, much more of this type of work in the brash that had got stuck in the middle of the culvert catchment. was now further down, and water was coming out of a I have a number of asks for the Secretary of State. completely different place. So, when nobody else was First, can the Calder Valley be elevated to tier 1 status, being flooded in the country, the people in Pleasant like the City of London? That would ensure that an Street were flooded all over again. That is particularly annual sum of money would be allocated for a wider upsetting for so many people in my constituency because catchment plan both to slow the flow of water coming dozens and dozens of them—I met many of them—have off the moorland and to protect areas further downstream, no insurance. That is not because they are on a floodplain such as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg or for a complicated reasons about insurance, but because, and Goole (Andrew Percy). in the run-up to Christmas, many families in my patch If the Government are not prepared to raise the are on borderline finances. They are literally making Calder Valley’s status to tier 1, will the Secretary of decisions about whether to put food on the table or to State consider a series of pilot schemes for catchment buy a school uniform; consequently, the insurance is the areas across the country? I am talking about six catchment first bill that goes. Those people have lost absolutely types that all have very different needs. That would everything—literally everything. Most people in my patch require a commitment to annual funding for wider own their own homes as well. It has been a double, triple, catchment plans, which could initially be developed quadruple whammy. What has been upsetting for even over a five-year period. These pilots could form a wider more people is that some have also lost their job because strategy for the rest of the country so that we could business in Pontypridd has been dramatically affected, start to manage flooding much closer within the catchment so they have lost their job and their home. than at present, rather than consistently reacting to The damage to the infrastructure of Rhondda Cynon flooding. Taf is phenomenal. About a dozen bridges across the I also ask that the wider catchment plan is given to whole of RCT will have to be rebuilt completely. A the local authority to manage, as that is where all the couple of those are historic buildings, so we have to get local knowledge is held. Farmers were telling me back permission from Cadw to take them down. That will in November that the moors were sodden and that we have a dramatic cost. There are hundreds of culverts. In would be in real trouble if the rains continued. my patch, flooding is not normally caused by the river overflowing or bursting its banks; it happens because of My final point is on the Environment Agency.Nobody water coming down off the mountain at great speed in can deny that it has done a brilliant job on the ground areas where it was not expected, with new watercourses during the floods and on preparing people in the lead-up suddenly being created and culverts not working. A to them. The response has been much, much better than phenomenally complicated set of infrastructure decisions we experienced in 2012 and 2015. The issue, however, is have to be looked at. in the amount of time that flood defence schemes take to implement. The upper Calder Valley has just one The council now reckons that its bill will be something main road in and out. The one road has been down to a in the region of £44 million, but its annual capital single lane for three years,while the scheme in Mytholmroyd allocation is just £13.4 million. RCT could be completely is still under construction. We have had three years of wiped out unless there is significant additional funding people sitting in traffic at peak times for over an hour to to the Welsh Government from here. Rhondda Cynon travel just a couple of miles. The Mytholmroyd scheme Taf has given £500 to every household affected; the was still not complete for the floods last month and, to Welsh Government have given another £500, and more rub salt into the wounds, the schemes for Hebden to those who are not insured. I hope that the crowdfunder Bridge and Brighouse have not even started after four that I set up, which has now reached £52,341, will be years. The Environment Agency will say that the schemes able to give £250 or perhaps more to every single have to be done in sequence but, according to local household. I would love it if the Minister would stand water engineers and experts, that need not be the case. up and say that he will ensure that the Government My final ask is that the Secretary of State puts pressure match the funds that have been raised. I represent one on the Environment Agency to get those schemes finished of the poorest constituencies in the land, and for that before the threat of our next major flood. money to have been found locally is just phenomenal. If somebody watching this debate on television would like to give us £50,000, it would mean that we could give 2.7 pm £500 to every household. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Nearly a quarter or I want to celebrate the spirit the people of the Rhondda, more of all those affected in the recent flooding were in which has been absolutely amazing. I remember standing one local authority area in Wales, in Rhondda Cynon in the middle of the slurry in Lewis Street in my Taf. I hope, Mr Deputy Speaker, that my hon. Friend wellington boots, and there were about 30 people there the Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) will who had come from all over the Rhondda to give a catch your eye later to talk about the situation there. hand in whatever way possible. Many were in completely That meant that a very significant number of homes in inappropriate clothes, but they just wanted to do their my constituency were flooded: in Treorchy, Trehafod, bit. One old man was in his bed and could not move, Ystrad, Britannia, Blaenllechau, Ynyshir, and Penrhys. and neighbours carried him—in his bed, which was in In Pentre, a culvert overflowed from the top of the danger of floating away—to safety. There were Canolfan hill, and slurry came down full of coal dust, debris and Pentre volunteers there every single day. Tesco and a fair amount of sewage. It swept down through a whole others have provided food because lots of these families part of Pentre. What was particularly upsetting was not have no money to pay for food right now. Fundraising only what those people had to suffer on the first occasion, events have been carried out by Morlais. Squares nightclub but that, three days later, in Pleasant Street—ironically has come up with £3,063. Visit Treorchy has found 867 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 868
[Chris Bryant] Frodingham Railway Preservation Society to relive some of those memories. I truly believe that Members of this another £3,000. The Manic Street Preachers have given House and people across the country will agree on the £6,000, between my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd importance to our nation of keeping a truly integrated and I. Neil Kinnock has given £500. But there is so steelworks. Having home-produced, genuinely world-class much that we still have to do to put things right. You steel not only serves various strategic interests for our can make a donation as well, Mr Deputy Speaker. nation; it is also integral to the Prime Minister’s mission to level up the north, and I thank the Government for Several hon. Members rose— the support that they have shown Scunthorpe over the past months. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The clock will still be operating, but I am going to be a little Steel is our backbone, but it is by no means all there is bit more flexible with time during this maiden speech, to the Scunthorpe constituency. We are blessed with since there is only one during this debate. Let us be wonderful countryside, down-to-earth, generous and considerate of Holly Mumby-Croft. [HON.MEMBERS: decent people, and a proud history of small businesses, “Hear, hear.”] many of which have expanded over generations to employ lots of people in our area. North Lincolnshire 2.12 pm was described in a recent poll as the best place in the UK to bring up a family. As a mum and an aunty, I can Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con): It is good attest to that. A few days after I was elected to this to hear the Government Benches so united in their place, I was invited by Scunthorpe Cheerleading Academy support for Scunthorpe. It is a real pleasure to follow to open a fantastic new cheerleading facility in Scunthorpe. the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). I pay I was lifted into the air to be a flyer in a pyramid, which tribute to my predecessor, Nic Dakin, who represented is frankly not a sentence that I ever expected to say. My Scunthorpe county between 2010 and 2019 with a great constituency has a vibrant selection of community groups deal of dedication and a genuine desire to help our residents. —people who give their time freely. Volunteers truly I am very glad to represent my home town as part of make our area better, and I thank them for their work. a varied and beautiful constituency, which includes Now that we have got Brexit done, and having worked not only Scunthorpe, but Messingham Bottesford, with the Government towards securing the future of Yaddlethorpe,Kirton, Holme,East Butterwick, Redbourne, our steelworks, I will work to see more funding for our Scawby,Scawby Brook, Hibaldstow,Gainsthorpe, Cadney, schools. I will be fighting to widen the A15. It is a Howsham, Cleatham, Manton and Greetwell. As a Roman road and, frankly, it is now time that it was proud Scunthorpe lass, the granddaughter of a 30-year widened. I will also be fighting to upgrade Scunthorpe steelworking veteran, I am particularly proud to stand Hospital, where I was born, and I thank the Health here today as the first MP for Scunthorpe county who Secretary for agreeing to visit and to discuss the challenges was actually born in Scunthorpe Hospital. we face. There will always be more to do, and I look Across the land and indeed the world, when people forward to working with our council leader,Rob Waltham, hear the word “Scunthorpe” they think of steel. We have on many future projects. had a very challenging time in Scunthorpe over the past My thoughts today are very much with those affected months, and my thoughts are very much with our by flooding. I am particularly aware of the efforts of my steelworkers today. But we are still living up to our hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew heritage. We are still making steel, and we look forward Percy) as he seeks to help those in his constituency. I to doing so for many years to come. Few who visit our will be working with colleagues in a bid to secure a industrial cathedral will ever forget the sight of red hot national flood resilience centre on a site in Scunthorpe. metal, and I was delighted to welcome the Business I thank colleagues on both sides of the House who have Secretary to Scunthorpe only a couple of weeks ago to supported that project. It is an oven-ready scheme that feel the heat on his face, in our rod mill. We were very would allow us to provide world-class training, planning well looked after, and I was extremely proud to show and research to mitigate future flooding events. him how hard we work in Scunthorpe. Unfortunately, when I suggested during the visit that I could go and I look forward to continuing to work with my watch the steel being tapped, as we had done as kids, I constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for quickly discovered that health and safety has tightened Brigg and Goole, who has been a huge help and support up somewhat since the 1990s—a little extra training and to me in my early weeks in this place. He knows that I a flame-proof suit is now required for that activity. see him very much as a father figure. Scunthorpe emerged in the 19th century as an extraction point for ironstone and later as its own iron producer, Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): Or grandfather eventually becoming our nation’s greatest steel hub. Our figure. steel is known for its exceptional quality and durability. We have supported infrastructure projects throughout Holly Mumby-Croft: Or,indeed, a grandfather figure— the nation’s history. Our works are truly powered not by him being a generation older than I am. [Laughter.] coke, but by our steelworkers. They are strong, stoic I am proud to represent a constituency that has people who have genuine pride in their work, and I quietly given so much to the nation over the years. If know that the friendships forged there can last a lifetime. you came to this place by train, we probably made the I am not saying all this purely because my granddad is tracks. If you came in a car, we probably made the wire watching at home but, because of him, my memories of in the tyres. And it is thanks to Russell Ductile Castings our steelworks are of steel toe cap boots, a soot-covered that we are dry, as it is a foundry in my constituency donkey jacket and trips around the site on a train, and I that made the tiles on this roof. For many years, the am very excited to have been invited by the Appleby people of Scunthorpe and its surrounding areas have 869 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 870 played a quiet but crucial role in the success of this business, cannot get that guarantee of assurance. We need country, and I look forward to fighting for Scunthorpe to re-look at how Flood Re works. It works well for to be levelled up. residential property but not for small businesses.
2.19 pm Rachel Reeves: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): It is a real pleasure intervention. He and I, and the right hon. Member for to follow the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby- Ludlow (Philip Dunne) have today written to the Secretary Croft). Many of us in this House deeply miss Nic of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to Dakin, but it was a real pleasure to hear her story about make exactly these points. Flood Re, although incredibly how she was forged in Scunthorpe. Like her, and like welcome, is of no use to small business owners who are all of us in this House, we hope that Scunthorpe will particularly badly affected in my constituency. I know continue to make steel for many years and generations that the Government are reviewing the Flood Re scheme, to come. but this is a matter of urgency now. Businesses did I want to speak about Kirkstall and Burley in my return to Kirkstall and Burley after the floods in 2015, constituency, which were devastated by floods on Boxing but they might not return quite so quickly next time, day in 2015. In the aftermath of those floods, we were because the flood premiums will go up again—and also, promised by the right hon. Member for South West frankly, because they believed the promises in 2016 that Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), the Environment Secretary the flood defences would be built. They have not been at the time, that Yorkshire would soon have built, and I think that would change some of the business decisions. So, urgently, let us get the flood defences, but “one of the most resilient flood defence programmes in the let us also ensure that businesses can get insurance. country”, and that Leeds would be given Climate change is only going to make these matters worse and more pressing. We know that water levels are “the right level of protection” rising. We know that ice caps are melting. We know that from floods. Well, more than four years after those our weather is becoming more unpredictable, as my words were uttered, we still do not have those things hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde and still desperately need them. Phase 2 of the flood (Jonathan Reynolds) pointed out. So in future we will alleviation scheme for Leeds was cancelled in 2011, and need to be better protected and better prepared for we are still fighting to get it back. Although phase 1 has floods. That is all that people in Leeds are asking for. happened and protects Leeds city centre, Kirkstall and We are asking to be better protected and better prepared, Burley are still as unprotected as they were on Boxing because it is a case of when and not if we get flooding in day 2015. We had a near miss with Storm Ciara and Leeds again. We have done everything we can in Leeds luckily avoided the floods that we experienced in 2015, to ensure that we get the flood defences we need. We but if the water in the River Aire had risen by just a few now look to the Government to come up with that centimetres more, we would have been devastated in £23 million to ensure that we do level up the flood exactly the same way, because we still do not have the defence spending so that the people of Kirkstall and flood defences that we were promised and that we need. Burley get the flood defences we need. That can only We remain £23 million short of the funding that we happen if the Government deliver on their promises. need in Leeds to build the second phase of the flood alleviation scheme. Some work is happening, and we welcome that. Only last week I visited Harden Moor in 2.25 pm Bradford, where trees are being planted and leaky dams Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con): are being put in, but not, frankly, at the level needed to As I am sure that all Members of this House would provide the protections that we need. agree, what a fantastic maiden speech by my hon. People in my constituency, and particularly businesses Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft)! in my constituency, like those that other hon. Members It is clear that she will be an absolute champion for her have mentioned, are in fear every time there is a flood steel industry. warning, and every time they see the river and the canal near to where we live rising, because they know that we I start by joining colleagues in praising the work of are just as vulnerable as we were back then. Not only our emergency services and flood responses around the are we as vulnerable to the flooding but, as my hon. country.The constituency of Runnymede and Weybridge Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said, has the Thames on our border. We have several different many people and businesses now do not have flood rivers going through the constituency that are liable to insurance, although not always for the same reasons flooding. Given the limited time, I will not meander like that he mentioned. In this case, it is because that flood the Thames, but focus on what is, in some ways, a love insurance is simply unaffordable, as now we have gone letter to the River Thames scheme that urgently needs through floods the insurers will not insure at the same to be built. rates as they did previously. Yesterday evening, I spoke Much of our land is on a floodplain. Building on to a business owner and asked him what happened to floodplains is not new. Many areas of this country are his flood insurance after the floods of 2015, and he said on reclaimed land. Indeed, Chertsey in my constituency, that it almost trebled overnight. Many businesses in my the site of a Benedictine abbey, was originally known as community no longer have flood insurance because it Chertsey Island. Clearly, we need to prevent further would make their businesses unviable. development on unprotected floodplains, but that is not enough. We also need to protect our developments that Neil Parish: Flood Re helps with residential property are already there—our homes, our businesses and our but not with small businesses. Somebody who is, say, land. Many of my constituents are persecuted by perennial running a guest house, and is very much classed as a flood warnings and alerts. Watching your garden gradually 871 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 872
[Dr Ben Spencer] that the money spent and offered is working most effectively. It is not, which is why it is important that we flood, praying that it does not reach your house, is not a review those processes to ensure that they work effectively way to spend Christmas, but that is the experience that for the future. many of my constituents had last year. We have heard so many times how upper catchment Flooding is increasingly a natural threat to our management is needed to slow the flow and to ensure communities, and the protections that we need cannot that we do planting, manage farmland differently, look be underestimated. The River Thames scheme—a scheme at a ban on grouse shooting and manage peatland, yet of flood defences for my constituency and others—promises the focus is always downstream. I know from the research to protect our homes and businesses. I do not know carried out by the University of York that we could take how much steel the River Thames scheme may need, away 20% of the water coming downstream if we managed but I do hope that it comes from Scunthorpe. The uplands differently, which would mean that my city tragedy of the 2014 flooding in Runnymede and Weybridge would not flood—yet the resources go into barriers leaves us in no doubt of the urgent need for the River getting higher and higher, as opposed to solving the Thames scheme. I look forward to working on this with issue upstream. That is why the Environment Agency is the Environment Agency, DEFRA and other key stake- right to call for resources to be given to areas to manage holders, including Surrey County Council, which has the whole catchment efficiently and effectively. We must done much of the heavy lifting in driving this project look at that. forwards. I want to remind the Under-Secretary of State for But it will still take many years to get the River Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member Thames scheme built, so we need to turn our attention for Taunton Deane (Rebecca Pow), that as part of the to flood mitigation. Local community flood groups are national flood resilience review, the discussion put a excellent, and they are a crucial part of building resilience, focus on the comprehensive spending review, which is as is the Flood Re scheme. Flood Re has made it easier on its way, to ensure that proper investment goes into for domestic customers to claim insurance, but there are upper catchment management. I hope that she makes also large numbers of small businesses affected in many those representations, and I will certainly make further of our constituencies, as we have heard from hon. representations to her about that. Members across the House. Flooding of these businesses My city is grateful that the Foss barrier worked. It means that they find it very difficult to recover, especially was a £17 million investment, and the Minister’spredecessor the smaller ones in small economies. We need to consider gave us the additional spending to ensure that we brought how we can mitigate the risks and damages to businesses it up to speed. It saved a lot of my city, but yet again when flooding occurs. properties and businesses along the River Ouse flooded, Prevention is better than cure. It is clear that the which has caused much anxiety in my community. Government are leading the way with the Environment There is a personal impact from not only seeing the Bill and our commitments on the environment—meeting flooding but anticipating it. net zero by 2050, and introducing long-term, legally Time and again, we have seen a failure to look at binding targets on biodiversity, air quality, water, and community resilience planning and property-level resilience. resource and waste efficiency—but we still need to get The procurement mechanisms need to be reviewed. We our defences built. have had surveys carried out and then more surveys The motion calls for a review. Rather than another carried out because the last lot of surveys were inefficient. review and a pointless waste of money, we need action Four years later, we still have not had the upgrades that and investment in flood defence infrastructure. I welcome we need. The companies providing those surveys are the Government’s pledge to invest in flood defence now saying, “You have to buy our resilience measures,” schemes across the country. The River Thames scheme and jacking up their prices. A kitemarked door might will provide not only flood defences but a community cost about £2,000, but those companies are saying, asset of natural parks and paths that we can treasure “You’ve got to buy ours, which is £5,000,” and it is not and use to turn disadvantage into opportunity. kitemarked, so there has to be a special testing mechanism. That is nonsensical. We need to ensure that we have proper procurement. I want to put a question out there: 2.29 pm is the Environment Agency the right agency to deal Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): We have with property-level resilience? This is about building, been here so many times before; Mr Deputy Speaker, I and issues around building and planning might belong know that you have spoken on the Floor of the House in a different agency, to make the process more effective. about the impact of flooding. That is why this motion is I would like the Minister to look into that issue, to see so important—we must turn focus into action and whether these schemes can work faster and more efficiently. ensure that we address the real issues. I know that my Finally,we need to ensure that the money works together. constituents who yet again were flooded are fed up of Wehave money coming from the Bellwin scheme, resilience hearing promises; they need resilience put in place. We grants, insurance, the Environment Agency and local also need to agree this motion because the climate is authorities, yet the money does not pull together to changing. We are getting wetter winters and, as a result, create community-level resilience, in place of individual river levels are getting higher and more frequent flooding property resilience. We need to ensure that that works. is occurring. It could have been a lot worse in York. I want to We know that systems are not working in the way thank Environment Agency staff for their day-to-day that they should. We need more connectivity in the diligence and keeping me up to date; the local authority whole system, with a whole catchment approach, to staff who work day and night to ensure that we are safe; manage the way that the water works, as opposed to just and the BBC, who were fantastic at communicating looking at this scheme by scheme. We need to ensure what was happening. 873 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 874
2.34 pm Neil Parish: Does my hon. Friend agree that, when it comes to private sector investment in flood defences, Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): There the Treasury needs to be a bit more generous and give a is a slight irony in the politicisation at the beginning of bit more tax relief to ensure that we get more private the debate, because many of us in west Kent will remember money to help protect our properties and businesses? the floods in 2000, after which the then Labour Government did absolutely nothing about the bursting of the River Tom Tugendhat: My hon. Friend is right. I would like Medway and the flooding of many areas of Tonbridge to see VAT relief on private flood protection, which and west Kent. My first experience of flooding was as a many people are forced to buy for their own homes. I community representative—not yet an MP, but the hope the Chancellor will consider that for the coming Conservative candidate in Tonbridge and Malling—in Budget, but I suspect we may have missed that one. 2013. That Christmas was ruined for many when the Medway again burst its banks. Since then, I have been I want to thank a few people who have made a huge able to report some pretty good news, because we have difference. In our community, flood wardens have had a had some serious investment. We have had investment huge impact by not only ensuring that people are safe in the Leigh flood storage area and work done by the when a flood occurs but helping to clear culverts and EA upstream in Penshurst. There is more to do, but we report blocked drains, so that floods do not accumulate, have seen good action and a lot of work to protect our and particularly surface water flooding. Carl Lewis in towns and villages. Tonbridge has led the way, and a small thank you should go to him. Other people around the area have I remind Opposition Members that the Conservative agreed to allow private land to be used. party has done more to protect residents from flooding than any other party. I have spoken to those affected by When I was driving from home into Tonbridge the flooding, and they care about us ensuring that it does other day, large areas of west Kent were covered by the not happen again, not point scoring. I hope we will Medway. However, in Tonbridge we have had issues this stick to planning, which is exactly what this Government winter caused by management companies and house are doing. I am sure that Members on both sides of the builders failing to look after residents. This is not a House remember the River Medway (Flood Relief) Act question about building on floodplains; these are buildings 1976. that are deliberately and expertly built on floodplains, with floodable garages underneath. They are specifically Andrew Percy: Indeed. I was reading it the other day. designed for the purpose, but those living in Riverbank House in Tonbridge were let down badly by Pembroke Tom Tugendhat: It is regular reading for the grandfather Property Management. Only now has the floodwater of Goole. The forthcoming proposed amendment to the been pumped out of their car park following the flooding Act may seem like a small one, to increase the height of that occurred before Christmas. Pembroke had no plan the Leigh flood storage area, but it will protect many to deal with the flooding and failed to ensure that there lives. The Leigh flood storage area is a vital piece of were working pumps in the car park, so cars remained infrastructure on the River Medway, without which the submerged for weeks. I pay particular tribute to some of town of Tonbridge would be constantly vulnerable. I the local councillors, including Matthew Boughton, urge those who are not familiar with it to visit, particularly who made a huge noise in making sure that constituents now that the A21 is fixed. It helps to store water and and residents were properly represented. protect our town, and we have seen it used many times In the absence of action from property management in not only the past few weeks but the past few years, companies, we must look at ways to ensure that residents protecting thousands of homes. are protected and that they are not charged for services The enlargement project comes with unqualified local that should already be provided—none more so than support. In addition to Government funding, it is supported those let down by Redrow at Waterside Reach. This by Kent County Council. I pay tribute to the work that building is only four years old and, as the name suggests, the county council has done and the council leader, it was specifically built next to the river. So there is more Roger Gough, for his efforts. Tonbridge and Malling that this Government can do and I look forward very Borough Council, led well by Nicolas Heslop, has done much to the Government taking action and making extremely impressive work as well. sure that towns such as Tonbridge—deliberately built, by the Vikings, on the river—are able to continue. Local businesses have also chipped in and done their bit. As a Conservative Administration, we believe that 2.41 pm people should contribute to their own protection, and that is exactly what many of these businesses are doing. Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): Colleagues One of the great successes of the Government intervention will be aware of the devastating impact that the recent after the 2013 Christmas floods was the establishment storms have had on communities in my constituency. In of the Medway Flood Partnership, bringing together all Pontypridd and right across Rhondda Cynon Taf, the the relevant organisations to develop a plan for flood level of rainfall was unprecedented, and the River Taf’s relief on the Medway catchment area. levels rose by over 1 metre above all previous records. Houses and businesses have been absolutely devastated, Neil Parish: Will my hon. Friend give way? and my community and local authority simply could not have prepared for the amount of rainfall that Storm Tom Tugendhat: I want to briefly pay tribute to the Dennis brought us. Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my right hon. As a new Member of this House, I never imagined Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), that my first few months as an elected representative who was then the floods Minister, but I now give way would be spent visiting local businesses and residents with great pleasure. who have seen their livelihoods and their lives shattered. 875 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 876
[Alex Davies-Jones] lost their life there is a proper tragedy, and when one talks about flooding, there is only one thing worse, and The flooding that communities such as mine and others that is efforts to politicise it. across the country have experienced is surely a sign that In just two days, we had a whole month’s worth of the climate crisis has gone far enough. I pay tribute to rain, on 15 and 16 February, which has caused about the fantastic way in which our community groups £10 million of damage in my constituency. Some throughout my constituency and all over Rhondda 110 properties have been flooded, and 389 people were Cynon Taf have come together to support one another, evacuated or led to safety. The fire brigade has done a but we really should not be facing such unprecedented phenomenal job. It also rescued 30 dogs, 12 cats, 55 sheep, and unexpected natural disasters in the first place. a pony, a parrot and a snake, believe it or not. The I am proud that the Welsh Labour Government have village of Hampton Bishop in my constituency was very made £10 million available to households impacted by badly affected. We saw the Lugg and the Wye rise to flooding, and the First Minister has been so quick to their highest levels since recording began 200 years ago, respond not just by visiting those impacted in my so people who think that this was a normal flood are constituency, but by setting up emergency relief schemes. wrong. We had 700 tonnes of water per second going Yet the cost of the flooding damage in Wales could past the bridge on the Wye in Hereford. The Environment reach at least £180 million and that figure is also predicted Agency pumped water out of Hampton Bishop, but the to climb. We are simply not receiving the financial problem is of the one-in-100 year floods meeting one-in- support from the UK Government to cover these 25-year defences, and we need to do considerably better. unexpected costs. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Daniel Kawczynski: My hon. Friend is outlining the Bryant) said, it is expected that over a quarter of the devastation that Herefordshire suffered during the recent total number of flooded homes in the UK are in our floods. We of course experienced similar problems in local authority area of Rhondda Cynon Taf. The Shropshire, but the leader of my council is telling me community response has been fantastic, but I would not that the Bellwin scheme is not proving sufficient to meet expect anything less. A crowdfunder that I set up only all the demands that the council has in clearing up the two weeks ago has managed to raise over £36,000, in mess. Could he say something about that? addition to the crowdfunder set up by my hon. Friend. Donations have come in from all over the world, showing Bill Wiggin: My council has had the same problem. I that this is clearly an issue close to everybody’s hearts— would ask the Government to think very carefully about although perhaps not our Prime Minister’s. training local authorities in how to manage the Bellwin scheme. Certainly, councillors in Herefordshire have Although the flooding and the rainfall have caused been panicking because they do not necessarily understand immense and in places irreparable damage,the consequences how the scheme works, they do not know how much of the flooding are far broader, wider and long-lasting they can spend, and they do not know who to turn to. I than simply cosmetic damage. There are former coalmining think the Department that is managing this scheme sites across south Wales that are now at huge risk of needs to reach out to the affected local authorities so landslides. Indeed, in my hon. Friend’s constituency, that at least the officers there know what they are landslides began soon after the rainfall. Yet it is clear talking about and can advise elected councillors properly. that the UK Government do not understand their responsibilities when it comes to devolution, and the Craig Whittaker: Calderdale is the second smallest Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural local authority in the country, and we have to spend Affairs has claimed that this is an issue for the devolved about £750,000 before we get £50,000 back from Bellwin. Welsh Government. The Welsh Labour Government Does he agree with me that the scheme needs reviewing have committed to the thorough flooding response, but and bringing into the modern age? the management of all former coal sites, in the wake of this flash flooding, needs urgent attention. I have been Bill Wiggin: I do agree. extremely concerned to see that there is some confusion In my constituency, we have had the Holme Lacy from this UK Government over where their responsibilities Causeway inundated. We knew it would flood: it flooded to former coalmining sites lie, and I would like this last October, and it has flooded again. Nothing was cleared up urgently. done to protect that stretch of road. The worst case is I sincerely hope that this UK Government are committed the B4224, which is the main road through Fownhope. to working alongside colleagues in the Welsh Government The damage there is so severe that the wall supporting to find a way forward beyond the flooding devastation. the road has collapsed into the garden of my own Longer term, I would like to see a new consideration of parliamentary assistant, so not only could I not find out the clearly outdated Barnett consequential funding formula. what was going on, but she could not get to work. She is I am sure that colleagues on both sides of the House about to get married and could really do without this, would agree that we should not have to wait for natural but worst of all, the people of Fownhope and the disasters such as flash flooding to strike before properly businesses there are not able to get the passing trade. considering methods of funding devolved Administrations Again, the council has been worrying about whether it such as Wales. is going to get the money, instead of getting on with repairing this road. However, even if it moves as quickly 2.44 pm as possible, it will still take a long time. Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): I am grateful I do think that local authorities need considerable to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for training in understanding the Bellwin scheme, and if it mentioning Tenbury Wells, which was in my constituency is not fit for purpose, we need to make sure that it is. in 2007 when it flooded three times.The fact that somebody When we get a situation such as the one I have described, 877 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 878 vehicles have to be sent round other roads, which damages homes. Properties were severely damaged and vehicles them and means that they are not necessarily in a fit written off. The Environment Agency has worked very state at the end of such a diversion. The potholes are hard to come up with a proposal for the flood defences. already bad; everybody has the same problem with It is now four years since those major floods and the them. Wetherefore need to get a much better understanding proposed flood defences have still not been installed. of the problems local authorities go through when The residents believe the Government are not prioritising dealing with flooding, just as the Government did with them because they are prioritising schemes with larger Flood Re, when they understood some of the challenges numbers of properties, so Prestolee keeps getting pushed people faced in getting home insurance. Obviously I back further. agree with what I heard earlier about how that needs to Following meetings with local residents and the be extended to local businesses, because in my constituency Environment Agency, I wrote a letter to the Minister businesses are damaged by floods again and again, and who is in her place today on 4 February this year, urging we need a more robust system for assisting and helping her to provide the funding needed to complete the those people. defence work in my constituency. I have yet to receive a One cannot simply put into words the praise required response. for the fire brigade, the Army and the Environment On Sunday 9 February, Riverside Drive was flooded Agency when such floods take place, and indeed, as the again, this time affecting 22 properties. Right now the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said, for the residents’wrecked belongings are piled up in their gardens. way that our constituents rise to the challenge. The Some residents are living in the upstairs of their homes people of my constituency,and indeed all of Herefordshire as the downstairs is uninhabitable, and others are forced and I suspect the whole country, have been fantastic in to stay in hotels. Many residents feel trapped; they are the way they have supported one another; they have unable to remortgage or sell their homes. risen to the challenge of understanding what a community is and have united in trying to deal with this horrendous The damage caused to the river bank is such that if problem of flooding. My hon. Friend the Member for the river levels rise again, the estate will be flooded Worcester (Mr Walker) has been having trouble with again, and there have been several flood alerts since the Toronto Close, which was under water; he has asked me flood in 2015. Every time there is rainfall the residents to mention that because, as a Minister, he is not able to get very anxious and worried about what may happen. speak himself. There, once again, residents were left to It is causing a lot of them mental distress. deal with flood defences themselves. It is tough enough Both the residents and the Environment Agency are when we know that we are going to flood, but not getting keen to get construction of the flood defences under the support and help that we need from the Environment way as soon as possible, and there are no technical Agency makes it even worse. difficulties in doing that. However, until the funding is Every year—every summer—I go around my made available no work can be commenced, and even if constituency with the Environment Agency to make the funding was granted today, the first set of work sure that all the preparation we can possibly do is done would not be able to start until spring 2021. We do not to ensure the flooding alleviation systems work. It is know how many more rainfalls there may be, and obviously worth doing; those who do not do it should do so, people are incredibly distressed about this. because that preparation makes a world of difference. It is difficult to install temporary defences due to the We saw it with the Somerset levels, when the Environment fact that there is a lack of space. The ideal solution is to Agency thought it was all right to let trees grow in the build flood walls on both sides of the river, as some rivers, and then all that happened was that the wildlife properties on the right bank also flooded in 2015. and the species it was hoping to protect simply drowned However, a flood wall on the left bank adjacent to when the rivers backed up, because branches got caught Riverside Drive is far more urgent. The Environment in the overhanging trees. Agency informed me that it would cost in the region of We really do need to manage our waterways properly. £4 million for walls on both banks of the river or We need to ensure that the people who understand that £3 million for the left bank alone. are listened to, and we need to ensure that the communities In just one week residents have collected 2,876 signatures that suffer again and again and again are protected. on a public petition, and I hold those signatures and the That is why I welcome some of the things the Government petition in my hand now. I will be presenting the petition have done. I think that local authorities could do more, this afternoon at the end of proceedings. The petition and they need the help and training to make sure that urges the Government to fully fund our defences. I that happens. therefore ask the Minister to commit to the money that My heart goes out to anybody who has been flooded. is required to build them in my constituency. I lost my car in 2007. I do not think people can understand until they have been through it the smell, We have all heard about the fact that—and everyone the filth and the vile nature of a flood, and I would wish recognises this—with climate change we are going to it on no one. have more and more and more rain; it is not going to lessen. There is going to be more and more flooding and devastation. More and more people and properties are 2.51 pm going to be affected. So why do the Government not Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): On Boxing take the bull by the horns? All the areas in the United day 2015, Riverside Drive and Beaver Chase in Prestolee Kingdom that have been affected by the floods and are and Stoneclough in my constituency suffered severe going to be repeatedly affected by floods must be provided flooding from the rising waters of the River Irwell with the money they need now, so as to prevent future during unprecedented high rainfall. Some 57 properties damage. It makes no sense not to do that. It would help were affected and residents were forced to flee their to regenerate our economy if these contracts were provided 879 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 880
[Yasmin Qureshi] 2.58 pm Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): There is no doubt and it would rebuild areas, so in every aspect this is a that we are in the midst of a climate emergency, and in win-win-win. I really do not want to see the sadness and thepastfewmonths,floodinghassweptthroughcommunities the devastation on my constituents’ faces again, so I right around our country. It is becoming a tragic fact of urge the Minister to grant us the funding that we need life that more and more families and businesses are now to construct the walls on the two banks. experiencing the consequences of flooding. Finally, I want to pay tribute to the residents of In South Yorkshire, our residents know this reality all Prestolee, especially Karen Smith, who helped organise too well, as they saw their homes and businesses destroyed the petition, to the Environment Agency, which has by the devastating floods of last November. More than helped and done a great amount of work, and to all the 1,000 homes were affected and many families are still emergency services. So again, at the risk of sounding living in temporary accommodation. While the recovery like a broken tape recorder, I say: please can we have effort is well under way, there is still an urgent need for £5 million for our flood defences? ongoing support in many communities in South Yorkshire and around the country, and widespread flooding shows 2.56 pm the stark reality facing us. Unless we change our ways, the destruction caused BrendanClarke-Smith(Bassetlaw)(Con):Myconstituency by flooding and extreme weather will become the new of Bassetlaw has suffered from the effects of flooding. normal. We cannot afford for that to happen. In South The historic town of Worksop was flooded in 2007, and Yorkshire, we are developing strategies that will help to as a result several residents and businesses struggled to safeguard our environment. We are working to ensure get insurance afterwards. Unfortunately, in November that these devastating events are not repeated and that 2019 the town was flooded once more, resulting in the South Yorkshire’s resilience to flooding is strengthened. evacuation of many people from their homes. The fire However, our efforts must be backed up by Government and rescue service had to use boats in the town centre to action. There are three steps that I would like the rescue people, and I would like to thank it, along with Government to take so that we can better protect residents the other emergency services, agencies and volunteers, and our communities in South Yorkshire. for their hard work in dealing with this emergency. Worksop library was also flooded, and we have had to First, there is an urgent need to invest in flood relocate the service elsewhere until the summer, when it prevention and mitigation. Last week, I wrote to the will be fully open again. Secretary of State to submit South Yorkshire’s flood priority programme. It is a bid for £271 million to Worksop town centre has struggled in recent years, substantially reduce flood risk right across South Yorkshire. and we are desperate for a boost to help regenerate our Approving that in full would give 19 schemes the resources town. However, it would be pointless to make significant they need to plug funding gaps. It would provide additional investment in our town centre without making sure resilience to our defences, and cover refurbishment Worksop will not flood again as it did in November. and maintenance costs. I also propose an investment of Some have argued that steps could have been taken to £4 million in natural flood management, which would mitigate the problems caused by the November flood, introduce upstream solutions that can slow the flow of such as opening the sluice gate; however, what is really water and reduce the risk to downstream areas. Let us needed is a joined-up and long-term approach, including be clear that this is the scale of ambition, funding and proper flood defences. commitment that we need from the Government. They, Worksop was not the only place in Bassetlaw affected of course, have a golden opportunity to deliver by by flooding. Walkeringham Primary School was flooded, funding our submission in full at next week’s Budget. and the staff and pupils have had to take refuge in My constituents have paid the price of flooding physically, nearby Beckingham until the school is refurbished and financially and psychologically. The programme is not fully operational once more. Members of the community only credible, costed and comprehensive, but the right in Shireoaks were out with sandbags, trying to protect thing to do. their village. Residents in Retford also suffered from Secondly, the Government need to look again at the flooding, and I met with constituents on Darrel Road Green Book. They need to urgently look at the specific to discuss their concerns. When somebody invites us criteria used to make funding decisions about flood into their home and shows us the devastation and the defences. The current criteria prioritise too much the water marks from the flooding, it really shows us what a value of the properties affected which, given the areas dreadful experience people have been through and are affected in recent floods in South Yorkshire, will make still going through. it much harder for them to compete for funding. I welcome the Government’s announcement of Thirdly, we must ensure that those who are affected £2.6 billion for flood defences, with another £4 billion by the risk of flooding have access to flood protection to come. I would ask that Bassetlaw receives its fair insurance. The Flood Re scheme has made a difference, share of this funding and that schemes such as the one but there is still work to do. We have heard Government at Retford beck or the dredging of the River Ryton can Members talk about small businesses,but research published be looked at with urgency. last week highlighted the gaps in Flood Re. It found With Storm Dennis we did not see a repeat of that 70,000 homes are at risk of being left uninsurable November’s floods, thankfully. While other areas of in the future. Those affected by flooding—in South Nottinghamshire experienced terrible flooding, we came Yorkshire and right around the country—as a result of through relatively unscathed; this time we got lucky. the most recent storms need to have the peace of mind With this Government’s ambitious plans, I am sure luck that they will be able to secure insurance and that the will no longer come into it. insurance that they can secure is affordable. 881 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 882
Craig Whittaker: One thing that the insurance industry We have talked today about the impact of flooding tells us, particularly in relation to business, is that all across the UK, which is not insignificant. Many people businesses can get insurance for flooding. The problem, have felt significant effects. Cumbria has been hit hard, of course—I wonder if the hon. Gentleman has come as has Penrith and The Border, not least in 2015 but across the same thing—is that the premiums are so high also in recent weeks in areas such as Appleby, Shap, and the excesses are phenomenal, too. I found a 35-seat Crosby, Rickerby, Warwick Bridge and Glenridding. café with a £65,000 excess to pay. Neil Parish: I welcome my hon. Friend to Parliament Dan Jarvis: I am very grateful to the hon. Member and, with his veterinary experience, to the Environment, for that intervention. He raises a very valuable point, Food and Rural Affairs Committee. This morning, we with which I completely agree. I am particularly pleased launched a cross-party inquiry into flooding across the that he intervened at that point, because it very neatly whole country to try to ensure we build on our previous takes me on to the final point that I was hoping to flood inquiries and deliver a better system in the future. make. In November last year, when I spoke to the Prime Minister about the flooding situation in South Yorkshire, he agreed that there would be real merit in a South Dr Hudson: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Yorkshire summit on flooding. Wenow think it will include I was delighted to be appointed to the Committee and it the whole of Yorkshire. Last week, when I raised it with is very welcome that it is going ahead with that inquiry. the Secretary of State, he said that the flooding summit It is important that we work across parties on these would take place within the next two months. I am issues to deliver the best for the whole country. grateful for that update, but it would be incredibly Members have talked about the impact of flooding helpful if the Government and the Secretary of State across the country on individual communities, not least could—perhaps the Minister could do so when she the financial implications. Members also touched on comes to close the debate—confirm when the flooding indirect consequences, and one issue that I would summit will take place in Yorkshire. That is important particularly like to mention is the mental health of our because it will bring together all the relevant parties to constituents. These episodes are traumatic. There is also discuss the resilience that we do and do not have, and to anxiety and stress for constituents who are waiting consider what needs to be done in the short, medium nervously, wondering whether it is going to happen to and longer term to reduce the risk of further flooding them. We underestimate the mental health implications right across Yorkshire. Protecting families and businesses of flooding for young people, as well as for old people. in South Yorkshire, and not subjecting them to further Kids have their schools closed and they then worry about harm from floods, is a priority that I believe the whole their mums and dads, who are worried about whether House shares. A summit would allow us to achieve that their homes will be flooded. We can work together on a together and ensure that collectively we can work together cross-party basis to deliver help on mental health. so that those concerns are addressed. That is the least our constituents deserve. Many Members have touched on how the funding system may need to be reviewed and I welcome those comments. We need to consider how flood schemes are 3.4 pm funded, their criteria and what communities will be protected. I would like to bang the drum for volunteer Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con): It is groups. Many do not have a funding source. Some are a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Barnsley charities and they have to apply for funding. I would Central (Dan Jarvis), for whom I have the utmost like the Government to look at whether funding sources respect. He speaks very clearly and succinctly, and with are applicable to volunteer groups, so that they can passion about this very important issue. First, I thank apply for and receive funding. I have seen what volunteer and congratulate the Opposition on bringing forward groups do on the ground and they need to be funded. this debate about such an important matter. It is important They need not just short-term grants, but grants for up that we talk about these issues across the House. I put to three years to give them the continuity of support on record my thanks to the Department for Environment, that they need. That is really important. Food and Rural Affairs and its Ministers for their help and support through difficult times in recent weeks and Members on both sides of the House have talked months, as my constituency has been hit significantly about insurance schemes. I welcome the review of the by floods. Flood Re scheme. The scheme is welcome, but I reiterate I would also like to echo comments by other hon. points that have been made about making small businesses Members and thank the Environment Agency, which eligible for it. That would be an important step forward. has delivered fantastic support on the ground. Specifically, We must also look at the eligibility criteria in relation to I would like to mention a couple of folk in my area, how recently homes have been built. Keith Ashcroft and Stewart Mounsey, who have been Finally, I would like to talk a little bit about uptake fantastic in their leadership of their teams. I thank the and flood resilience at an individual household level, emergency services and councils for their fantastic work and what measures the Government can take to encourage in these difficult times. Last, but by no means least, I people to make their properties more resilient. They would like to thank the volunteer groups who work so could not only encourage, but perhaps incentivise and hard in these areas in difficult times. Volunteers work even enforce, landlords to introduce flood protection hand in hand with the emergency services and the schemes in their premises, especially where those landlords Environment Agency to deliver fantastic support, so I do not occupy the buildings and it is tenants who are put on record my thanks to volunteers across the UK vulnerable. If not every premises in a bank of houses is and in Cumbria, in areas such as Appleby, Glenridding, protected, the water will get in, and I would like people Keswick and Cockermouth. to think about that. 883 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 884
[Dr Hudson] once-in-a-generation chance to transform the future of the area. The proposal is to create a lagoon by constructing I again congratulate the Opposition on bringing forward a four-lane road that takes the A63 along a six-mile the debate. Obviously there is an element of politics to route into the estuary, from the docks in the east of the it, but I have been reassured this afternoon that there is city to Hessle in the west. That would immediately a lot of cross-party consensus about these important benefit the whole of the front of the city of Hull by issues. It is important that we try to work together on protecting it, while diverting traffic away from the city that basis to deliver the best for the people of the and easing all the problems of congestion. We are United Kingdom. looking at the Government’s proposals for a free port in Hull, which we hope would generate more business for 3.10 pm Hull port. If that happens, we will have to deal with the Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) congestion problem, and this is one of the answers. (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for The lagoon project would provide more than 14,000 new Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson). jobs, new waterfront living and leisure opportunities, As the Minister might be aware, the Humber is the port expansion, and direct access for shipping to new region with the second largest area of floodplain in deep-water quays. It could add £1 billion a year to the the UK, and Hull tops the list of local authorities with region’s economy through improved productivity. This the largest number of homes classified as at high risk of is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to turn Hull in a flooding, at nearly 20,000 properties. We were very magnet city and the envy of the rest of the UK. I urge lucky this time, but back in 2007 we were not so lucky. the Minister to look into the proposals in detail, meet The floods at that time devastated our city, causing over the people behind the project, and talk to Members of £40 million of damage. Parliament from across the Humber about how this could benefit the whole area and protect our city against The city council responded by working with Yorkshire flooding not just now, but as we go forward into the Water to develop plans to retain as much water as future. possible before it runs down into the city. Recently, the area became the first to agree officially binding rules 3.14 pm regarding sustainable drainage requirements. It is the Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): Like just about first joint initiative of its kind in the UK, where an area every Member who has spoken, I am standing up on has looked at solving the problem itself. The city council behalf of the 110 homes in my constituency that have is also involved in tree planting and is looking at other been flooded, the 55 business that have been affected natural ways to absorb as much water as possible. and the 200 homes that have been evacuated over the However, that will not solve all the problems. past two or three weeks as the storms have passed I pay tribute to the previous MP for Scunthorpe, Nic through. It is unbelievably unpleasant to suddenly find Dakin, and the work that he did across the House to one’s home being flooded. It was particularly unfortunate push the Government to support an initiative from the for a couple who moved into a new house on the first University of Hull to build a state-of-the-art national Saturday of the storms, only to find themselves flooded flood resilience centre at the Scunthorpe site. The plan by the Sunday. has received cross-party support from the hon. Member Before I get to the meat of my speech, I want to speak for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), among many up for the people who put themselves at risk when they others. The previous Secretary of State said that she come out to help us and keep us safe. The Environment would engage with people bringing forward a Bill and Agency is made up of an extraordinary bunch of people look at it seriously. The current Secretary of State said who work incredibly hard, including in my constituency, that he would be happy to meet the hon. Member for and do so with efficiency and kindness for the local Brigg and Goole and others to discuss it. When the population who are seeing their homes flooded. They Minister sums up, I would like to hear how advanced go around with the most extraordinary gentle efficiency, the discussions are or when they will take place. Will she making people feel both relaxed and helped at the same also give an update on the Government’s consideration time. of the University of Hull’s proposal to build a flood The Severn Area Rescue Association is a team of resilience centre, which would benefit everybody across volunteers who cover the whole of the River Severn the Humber? area. They go out in appalling conditions, risking their The main point on which I want to focus the Minister’s lives to keep all of us safe. I have an enormous amount mind today is the Lagoon Hull project, which again of respect for SARA. Of course, we also have all those would benefit the whole of the Humber. I raised it on people who are professionally involved—the police, the 24 February with the Secretary of State, and he said he Hereford and Worcester Fire and Rescue Service, and would be happy to meet the promoters of the scheme. I of course the local council—all of whom look after us would like to press the Minister to find a date for that very well. and to tell her a little more about the project. I also say a big thank you to the Ministers who have Hull is at risk of flooding not only due to water been involved. I know that there has been a lot of coming down, but from higher tides. The tidal barrier criticism over the past few weeks, including that the was very effective in 2013, after a tidal surge, but the Prime Minister has not been involved, but I want to give water was within one inch of coming over the top. Some my experience of engaging with the Government through manufacturers were flooded because they were not this crisis. Not only has the Secretary of State been in protected. touch with me on a regular basis, but the floods Minister The plans for Lagoon Hull are very ambitious. It is a was in my constituency, up to her knees in floodwater, £1.5-billion infrastructure scheme that would protect within 24 hours of the floods hitting. I am incredibly the city and region right into the 22nd century. It is a grateful for their support and for the Bellwin funding. 885 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 886
My main town of Bewdley epitomises the problems very important that we work with the Environment with flood defences across the country. On the western Agency and deliver what it needs to make sure we have bank, there are £11 million-worth of demountable local control centres. flood barriers, which were put in by one of the finest On Saturday morning, I met a farmer, Mr Grainger, leaders of the Labour party, Mr Tony Blair, in 2001. My who has a problem with the fact that, in order to secure community is eternally grateful to the former right his single farm payment, he has to have three-crop hon. Member for Sedgefield. The barriers have done rotation throughout the year. His first crop has been an amazing job and they protect the better part of ruined. His farm is a bog of unfarmable clay and mush. 300 houses. He cannot get a second crop in, so he is going to lose his On the eastern side—the Wribbenhall side—there are single farm payment, and that is a big problem. I have 27 or so homes in Beales Corner that up until now have already raised it with the Chair of the Environment, been protected by temporary flood barriers. After the Food and Rural Affairs Committee, and he will look last floods, property-level flood barriers were put in into it, but that is something that Mr Grainger and many place, and this is the first time they have been tested. other farmers are very keen to get their head around. What we tend to forget is that temporary flood barriers They want to know whether we can help them. are incredibly dangerous. On the first Tuesday of these Flooding is really one of those absolutely terrible events, I was out at 11 o’clock at night watching the things. There are a lot of heroes involved. There is only local services get ready to clear up when the barriers one thing that I am slightly sad about with having the were expected to break down. Even if they stand fast, demountable barriers, and that is the loss of the stoicism the barriers are on tarmac, which is not waterproof, so and humour of the local fish bar, Merchants, which is a water comes up behind them. Two or three floods ago, fish and chip shop down the side of the River Severn. somebody managed to nick the pump that was pumping Every time it flooded, Mr Merchant used to put a sign the water out. It is unbelievable that somebody would outside his shop saying, “All fish caught on the premises”. do that during this type of event. Wewill not see that sort of stoicism with the flood barriers. The point is that the economics do not quite stack up. While we have spent £11 million protecting 300 or so 3.21 pm houses on one side of the river, on the other side it is not Mr Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) (Lab): It is deemed worth while spending £5 million to protect 20 only right that I begin by paying tribute to our blue light or 30 houses and keep the whole town open, without services, volunteers and local government workers who losing the use of the bridge. There is some strange helped Britain to weather the storm of unprecedented mathematics that goes on to work out whether it is flooding. With three major storms, Storm Jorge being worth investing this money. I fear that more value is put the latest, February saw record rainfall. We also know on a London property, where the real estate value is that the last 10 years have been confirmed as the warmest some 10 times that in Bewdley, than properties in other decade on record. As a representative of a coastal parts of the country. However, we must never forget community, which bears the brunt of the rising sea that even though the calculations are based on the real levels resulting from climate change, I find that deeply estate value, the true value of a house is that it provides concerning. a home for an individual. We must remember that it is a More than 10,000 homes and 700 non-residential family’s home; it is not a bit of real estate. We must get properties are at risk of flooding from the sea in my this right. constituency. In order to quell the threat, Portsmouth We need to have another look and consider what City Council is embarking on the largest coastal defence should happen. I am very keen to have a lessons-learned scheme this nation has probably ever seen—the Southsea exercise. sea defence scheme. The 4.5 km stretch across the coast will be the first line of defence against flooding for the Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): I absolutely agree with next 100 years, but are the Government doing enough my hon. Friend. I pay tribute to the emergency services to support such schemes? The council has told me that for all they have done. People who live in my constituency it has struggled to obtain full funding under Government have been very affected by flooding in recent weeks. rules. Support from Ministers needs to go beyond simply Constituents I met over the weekend believe that flooding part-funding projects. has been exacerbated by farmers not being allowed to Another point that must be addressed is the current clear ditches and spread the contents on their fields Government’s failure to recognise the interaction between because, ludicrously, it is deemed by the EU to be waste flooding and heritage sites. A case example is Southsea product. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should use castle in my patch, which is a major cultural English the opportunity of Brexit and leaving the EU to look at heritage asset. As expected, sea defence works surrounding this important matter again? the Henry VIII-constructed fortification require extra I think we should also learn lessons from other care and diligence in stabilising its groundwork, but the constituencies that have flood control centres. We do way that the Government currently give out funding not have one in Stafford, but I am interested to hear fails to recognise the increased cost incurred to protect from colleagues what we can learn in my constituency— heritage sites. I fear that other local authorities will no doubt encounter that problem as the climate crisis worsens. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. I would like to ask the Minister if she will address the The intervention is too long. way that Government funding is structured to consider the extra costs of protecting cherished heritage sites. Mark Garnier: My hon. Friend is right, and in raising The Government also need to set out what they the issue of farming, she brings me on to my next point. expect local enterprise partnerships to do when it comes to She is right about having a local control centre, and it is protecting communities from flooding. In my constituency, 887 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 888
[Mr Stephen Morgan] that money would be passported through, and that the Government would work closely with the Welsh Portsmouth City Council has been making efforts to Government in the coming weeks. Can I ask today for secure money from the LEP in a bid to bridge the an update on the engagement with Welsh Government shortfall in Government funds. That has been at times a and what level of support Wales is likely to get? The real challenge in Portsmouth, arising from the rigid First Minister of Wales has indicated that the cost could LEP funding structures. be somewhere in the region of £180 million. Coastal communities such as my own are not only The Secretary of State made a comment in his opening facing additional threats of flooding due to climate speech about coal tips, which, as we know, are largely change: they are also at risk because they have been hit the responsibility of the Government. Tips are a huge hardest by austerity. As the House of Lords Select area of concern for my constituency and many others, Committee report shows, communities such as Portsmouth and we need assurances that both publicly and privately are dealing with a toxic cocktail of even less funding owned tips are adequately monitored. In my constituency, than their neighbours and being forced to face more the community of Aberfan suffered more than anywhere climate change challenges. There is a clear imbalance due to the impact of coal tips that had not been that needs to be redressed. The Prime Minister has properly monitored, and people are understandably previously committed to hosting a flood summit, bringing very concerned about this issue. So we do need today a together regional partners and stakeholders, and I echo signal from the Minister that funding for the remedial the concerns we have previously heard that we need to works required at the tips will be forthcoming. ask the Minister when this summit will take place. In conclusion, the Union of the United Kingdom, a I am asking the Minister lots of questions today. Union that I have always felt mattered—I still do—must They are questions that I would have asked her in mean something at times like this. The whole point of person, but sadly, the Minister previously offered me the United Kingdom is that we are there to offer support just 15 minutes for discussion of the biggest sea defence to each other in times of need. While we appreciate that scheme in the country and cancelled two consecutive flooding and environmental issues are largely devolved meetings after repeated requests, one just hours before matters, these unprecedented times need unprecedented the meeting. Our coastal communities are rich in leisure, measures. We need to be there as a Union of four nations tourism and heritage activities. Their loss would be our to support each other, so I ask the Minister today to nation’s loss and they must be protected. There are gaps outline what support she can offer to Wales in the coming in the Government’s current strategy that need to be weeks. addressed. It is high time that the Government took notice of this fact and started properly supporting coastal 3.28 pm communities such as Portsmouth. Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab): Thank you, Madam Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to speak today. afraid that I have to reduce the time limit to three Diolch am y cyfle i siarad heddiw. minutes, if there is going to be a hope for everybody to My constituency was one of the hardest hit by the be able to make their very short remarks. recent floods. Homes and businesses suffered, with costs of millions of pounds, and infrastructure damage is 3.25 pm considerable. It was heartbreaking to see that people Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): who had invested so much of their lives in their homes The impact of recent floods, particularly associated and in their businesses were so severely affected by the with Storm Dennis, devastated a number of communities flooding. We have been fortunate in having such close- across Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, but it is often true knit communities, and in having workers—from local that in the worst and most difficult of times we see the government staff to those in the emergency fire and best of community spirit, and that was certainly the rescue services—who are willing to give so much to help case when local residents came out to support each those in need, but the toll that this has taken on the other and community organisations offered their support mental health and wellbeing of those who were flooded too. One such example was Merthyr Tydfil football has been considerable, and they will need support for a club, which offered a free carvery lunch to any emergency long time to come. service workers who had been out on that Sunday All this costs money, and I make no apology for my morning helping residents since the early hours— next comments which—yes—are political. I do not community spirit at its best. “play politics”. This is not a game. My politics are Despite 10 years of austerity that has hit local authorities based on compassion, care, fairness and equality, and if hard, both Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council the flooding has done nothing else, it has shown how and Caerphilly County Borough Council were on the vital those qualities are. Unless we address the broader frontline supporting residents, ensuring roads were kept political issues, the people of Cynon Valley,and elsewhere, open as far as possible, assisting with the clear-up will continue to suffer disproportionately from the effects operation, delivering sandbags and opening rest centres. of such flooding. On both sides of my constituency, we have significant Austerity policies and welfare reforms have hit Wales issues with culverts being blocked, sinkholes, water hard, and, as always, those reforms have hit the poorest mains collapsing and bridges that need urgent repair. the hardest. Parts of my constituency have some of the Last week at PMQs, I asked the Prime Minister for a highest child poverty figures in the country, and, as we cast-iron guarantee that Welsh communities would not approach International Women’s Day, we should also be treated differently from other parts of the UK and remember that women have been hit particularly hard would get the money we need to recover from flood by the austerity and welfare reform measures of Tory damage. The Prime Minister gave an assurance that Governments. Because of Tory Government austerity 889 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 890 policies since 2010, funding per head of the population and observe the scale of the flow, and to see a mighty for day-to-day devolved public services in Wales will river like the Thames in flood. It is truly terrifying to see have fallen by 7% in real terms. A recent report by Wales the force of the water coming past. The hon. Member TUC stated that as a result of the cuts, there are far fewer for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer) spoke well police officers and fire and rescue services, and more when expressing concerns about his area. In our part of than 30,000 council jobs have been lost—and those are the Thames valley, we are lucky to be in a river catchment the people on whom we rely to help us at times like this. that sits on soft rock which absorbs water,unlike colleagues We can rely on them, but we cannot rely on our Prime in other parts of the country, including the north of Minister and this Government. Greta Thunberg says that England and Wales, where, so tragically, water floods “the world is on fire”. down very rapidly. We are also lucky to benefit from the Nero fiddled while Rome burned. What the Prime Minister “sponge” effect of the chalk in the Cotswolds and the was doing during the flooding I do not know, but Chilterns. In the long run, however, we face serious whatever it was, he certainly was not doing it in Cynon prospects of increased flood risk. Valley. In 1947, there were substantial floods in Reading and The issue of climate change is central to this debate. I several hundred houses were affected; these are older have three children, and I want a future for them. While properties, built in Victorian times on an existing floodplain some moves have been made to appear to be addressing on either side of the river. Indeed, some parts of the the issue, they have been inadequate. Targets remain too suburb of Caversham are actually below river level. If long term and plans remain thin on detail, and action is the Thames were to flood catastrophically in our area, needed now. We must keep up the pressure on central we would see water spread up to half a mile from the Government to act quickly to tackle climate change. river. I can tell those who have ever visited Reading on a Putting care for our fellow human beings at the top of train that, in such an event, they would be travelling on our agenda is a political choice, just as pursuing austerity tracks that were lapped by a mighty flood from the policies was a political choice by the Tory Government. Thames. Clearly, there needs to be serious and substantial We need to put this right now, because what will happen action to protect the town and the surrounding area next time floods occur? The science is clear on this: our from this type of flood and action on the tributaries, as valleys can expect to see 50% more rain over the next I mentioned earlier. I would like Ministers and officials decade. Unless we act now to redress the imbalance of to put more effort into exploring the possibility of wealth in the country and to properly fund a green changing land use upstream, given that we have such a industrial revolution, people in Cynon Valley and the large catchment. rest of Wales will continue to suffer from the double 3.34 pm whammy of poverty and the increasingly frequent and forceful effects of climate change. Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): We are seeing the climate emergency at first hand, and not only this; we are seeing flooding as a social disaster, too. While 3.31 pm furniture can be replaced and homes can often be repaired, Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to it is the devastating human impact that flooding has on follow my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley individuals, families and communities that has been (Beth Winter), who spoke so eloquently about some of most striking—everyday lives uprooted by flooding; the issues that we all face. My heart goes out to the families left in temporary accommodation; days of lost communities across the country who have been affected schooling; shops,cafés,businesses,the heart of communities, by the nightmare of flooding. I am sure the whole House lost and submerged; treasured possessions ruined; and agrees with that sentiment and I support my colleagues the fear and continual uncertainty each time the rain returns in their endeavours in this regard. and the rivers rise. It is the human damage that remains. I am conscious of time, so I will address just three I was out in my constituency late last Friday night as issues. The first is the scale of the challenge that we all the rains returned. I saw properties damaged two weeks face; I am therefore speaking in favour of the motion. before by the floods and people up all night, although The second is the need for better flood protection in my they were not flooded again. That anxiety, worry and constituency, which includes Reading itself, Caversham stress cannot be undone. The next day, we held a and Woodley, and the third, which was mentioned by flooding meeting for my constituents and the communities my hon. Friend, is the need for leadership. affected by the flooding. Many came from across the I think it is worth considering both the vast scale of constituency concerned about the impact of the flooding. the storms that we face this winter and the broader I was there mainly to listen to their concerns, to feed long-term trend towards warmer, wetter winters. The them back to the stakeholders—Natural Resources Wales fact that that is coupled with drier summers does not and Dwr Cymru Welsh Water—and to find out what was reduce the flood risk in the winter; indeed, it increases needed and how much money it would take. it, and we need to consider that very seriously. Following We owe it to our constituents across the country to such a major series of incidents as we have faced during address the environmental and social tragedy that we this autumn and winter, the normal response in the witnessed last week and two weeks ago and which we House, and from any sensible Government, would be to are witnessing time and again. We must mitigate the request an independent inquiry. I believe that an inquiry risks of climate change and the climate crisis. We should is important, and I urge the Government to reconsider already be transitioning to a society, natural environment, and withdraw their amendment. infrastructure and economy that allows us to combat Let me now move swiftly on to the issues in my own and reverse climate change, but the Government’s policies, area. Reading sits on the River Thames. It is also the including their austerity policies, have hampered that point at which the Kennet, which is a major tributary of transition and our ability to upgrade our infrastructure the Thames, joins the river. It was striking to go down to prepare properly for the future. 891 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 892
[Anna McMorrin] my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock), who is frustrated that the Government are I am proud that our Welsh Labour Government took not going further when they are match funding the immediate, swift and compassionate action. The very moneys raised in South Yorkshire. We have not even next day, Mark Drakeford, our First Minister, visited had the commitments in Calderdale to match fund the the site of the floods— work done by the Community Foundation. It has been incredibly proactive and innovative in coming up with Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con) rose— the Flood Save and Watermark schemes in Calderdale, Anna McMorrin: I give way to the hon. Member. but the only way the Community Foundation will be able to help everybody, on the back of what we have Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. faced in this crisis, is if the Government step up and The hon. Lady does not have time to give way. match fund that fundraising. Anna McMorrin: I am very glad the First Minister Another part of the jigsaw is the use of reservoirs as a offered a contingency fund for the homes damaged by means of mitigating flood risk. I will be tabling amendments the floods and that in my constituency we will be to the Environment Bill on this issue, and I am glad to getting money from our local authority as well. I ask hear that they will have cross-party support from the the Secretary of State: will he provide adequate funding Back Benches. I hope that the Secretary of State will for the properties and the long-term infrastructure that look favourably on those amendments as we seek to use is needed? reservoirs as a means of mitigating flood risk, which will be incredibly important for residents in Calderdale. 3.38 pm 3.41 pm Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab): It is a great relief to be called in a closing minutes of this debate. I will be Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab): In my echoing the sentiments aired by my constituency neighbour, own constituency,several hundred properties and businesses the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker), have been affected by flood risks and the flooding of in the time I have. the River Cole. Action to prevent flooding has been hit The first thing we need from the Government is by years of Conservative cuts to flood defence spending. flexibility around the resilience grant. A majority of The Environment Agency, the emergency services and those flooded in 2020 also flooded in 2015. The resilience local authorities all play a significant role in managing grants announced as a package of measures nine days and responding to flood risk, but insufficient funds are after Storm Ciara state that people who claimed a being spent on protecting the most vulnerable communities resilience grant four years ago will not be eligible this from flooding and the consequences of extreme weather. time. I understand that from Whitehall that might seem Ministers must urgently fund the schemes that these logical, but I am afraid it is incredibly short-sighted, communities say they need, as well as putting in place given the reality in Calderdale. In some instances, resilience longer-term flood prevention strategies with appropriate measures paid for by the 2015 grants were damaged in bodies to prevent flooding and to protect homes and this flood and need replacing. It is also worth bearing in businesses. mind that advances in resilience measures have been Many households cannot afford to meet their insurance made since 2015 and so enhanced protection could be premiums, which have skyrocketed, and a recent study possible. Surely there should also be an option for showed that 20,000 homes that are not protected by the groups of properties to pool their grants to invest in Government’s insurance scheme are also not protected further external flood defences, as was the case in Earby by flood defences. Can the Minister confirm what in Pendle, where the local authority made a claim on discussions have been held with the insurance companies? behalf of residents and used the money to fund flood Will the Government commit to making funding available defences for the whole community. to homeowners who find themselves unable to claim on Secondly, I ask that Calderdale—along with the their own insurance policies? constituency of the hon. Member for Calder Valley—is One of the businesses in my constituency put £50,000 granted tier 1 status based on national risk assessment of its own funding towards flood defences. Despite that, criteria, in recognition of our ongoing management of it still suffered losses of over £500,000. In some cases—in flood risk. Calderdale is having to find in the region of fact, in most cases—only two sandbags were provided £3 million from its annual budget every year to commit to households, although six to eight are recommended to ongoing flood mitigation work, and I am asking the by the Environment Agency. We need to tackle flood Government to recognise this and match it. That would damage and flood risk as a matter of urgency and allow us to deliver enhanced ongoing maintenance work priority. That can be done only with appropriate levels on clearing drains and gullies, and to have a dedicated of funding going to the Environment Agency, local flood response team. It would allow the council to work authorities and the emergency services, so will the Minister with the Environment Agency to deal with the massive commit to these funds being put in place to ensure that issues of orphaned assets and of culverts, which, as we no homes or businesses suffer unnecessarily from floods? have heard repeatedly, are in a state of disrepair. It In my own constituency it is the River Cole that needs would also support efforts to manage the really significant flood defences to be put in place. emotional and mental stresses of those living with the risk of flooding. 3.43 pm We also need match funding for the Community Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): It is a real privilege Foundation for Calderdale’s flood appeal. In 2015, the to stand here today at the Dispatch Box following in the Government did match fund the money raised by the steps of my lovely predecessor, the late great Paul Flynn. Community Foundation. We have already heard from Paul came to this Dispatch Box slightly later in his 893 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 894 political career, and he maintained that the box was just them to show leadership and demonstrate to the families the right height to prop him up. I can also confirm that of those who lost their lives, their livelihoods, their it is just the right height for me to hang on to, to stop homes and their cherished memories and belongings my knees knocking. that they care, will do their job and will do what is I reiterate the words of condolence expressed by my necessary to save lives. hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and It was good to hear from the Secretary of State what Devonport (Luke Pollard), the shadow Secretary of has been done so far to prevent the flooding and which State, when he opened the debate. Our hearts go out to areas have been spared this time, but too many have not the families of those who lost their lives, and we send been spared, which is why we want this overarching our deepest sympathies to them and to all the communities review to learn the lessons and prepare for future potential affected by the floods caused by Storms Ciara, Dennis flooding events. and Jorge. The Secretary of State outlined the numerous individual This has been an interesting debate, and I thank all reviews undertaken over the last decade, which highlights Members who joined our call for action from this just how piecemeal things have been. We need a complete Government. Colleagues across the House and from all UK-wide review. We do not want an inquiry; we want a parties have raised concerns here in the Chamber today, review. This should not be party politically difficult. It is and out there in their constituencies over recent weeks. essential to allow the people of all parts of the UK to The debate has given us a chance to bring together recover from the floods and prepare with certainty for those views, stories and experiences. the future. We need to act now. My hon. Friends the Members for Leeds West (Rachel It is clear, though, that action is an approach that the Reeves) and for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) spoke Prime Minister seems to apply only to a general election movingly about the ongoing fear of flooding and the campaign. I am sorry to say that he has been missing in problem of escalating insurance premiums. My hon. action, unlike his Secretary of State. He had no time to Friends the Members for York Central (Rachael Maskell), visit Rhondda or Pontypridd—no time for York or for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) and for Reading East Calder Valley, or the many other communities affected (Matt Rodda) made the eminently sensible suggestion up and down the country—but this is all about choices. that we need to look upstream to develop solutions to He chose to fly to the Caribbean for a holiday paid for the flooding occurring further downstream. by someone from somewhere. He chose to disappear My hon. Friends the Members for Bolton South East to his grace-and-favour mansion. He chose to hide in (Yasmin Qureshi) and for Birmingham, Hall Green the flat in Downing Street, rather than get down to the (Tahir Ali) requested that funding be released immediately Cabinet Office briefing room and give the country the to assist their constituents. My hon. Friend the Member leadership we need. The one thing we now know about for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) this Prime Minister is that when the going gets tough, gave us an insight into the Lagoon Hull project, and he does not get going. He goes missing. What a disgrace my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South and a blatant abdication of his responsibility to this (Mr Morgan) spoke about the need to protect important country and its people. heritage sites from floods. My hon. Friend the Member We know, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon for Halifax (Holly Lynch) and the hon. Member for Valley (Beth Winter) eloquently stated, that austerity Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) were clear that they has had and continues to have a devastating impact on want tier 1 status for their part of the UK too. our environment and natural world. The lost decade of My hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Tory and Lib Dem cuts to local authorities in England, Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) talked about specific flood and also to organisations across the country such as the issues such as blocked culverts and the ensuing damage. Environment Agency, has seriously undermined our My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie ability to tackle the environmental crisis and deal with Peacock) highlighted the ongoing and regular issues of the impact of the climate emergency. flooding and the problem of the match funding formula, which works against our poorest communities. Andrew Percy: Will the hon. Lady give way? A number of Government Members said that we do not need a review; we just need to get on with things. I Ruth Jones: I will not, as we are short of time. say to them that a review is not a public inquiry. It is I am proud to be the Welsh Labour MP for Newport different, and it has a different remit and function. We West, and I know what devolution means and that need to learn lessons and get things right for the future flooding is a devolved matter, but rainfall, rivulets and as the disastrous effects of the climate emergency become rivers know no borders. Floods do not respect council more and more evident. That is why the motion calls for or constituency boundaries. We need co-ordinated action a review. across the four countries of the United Kingdom. I commend the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly The people of Wales have been devastatingly affected Mumby-Croft) for her maiden speech. Her passion for by the storms, as my hon. Friend the Member for her home town and its steelworks is evident. As the Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones) highlighted. Member representing another steel city, I look forward Many people were left without power, many homes are to working with her to protect the UK steel industry. currently uninhabitable and many communities are left Beyond the walls of this Chamber, our world and our trying to recover. planet are experiencing a dangerous, unpredictable and Over a quarter of the UK’s flooded homes are in the evident climate emergency. We can no longer sit by and Rhondda Cynon Taf area of south Wales. My hon. watch the world burn, communities flood and people die. Friends the Members for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) I say to Ministers and all the Members sitting behind and for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) have been tenacious them that it is now time to get a grip. It is now time for and passionate in standing up for their communities, 895 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 896
[Ruth Jones] received over four times the average monthly rainfall, and the Met Office had to create a new scale on its map and that goes for all hon. Members representing people, to show areas receiving over 200% of their average families and areas affected by the storms and floods, rainfall. Members who saw the map will have seen that who have debated this important topic today. quite clearly. It is absolutely staggering. The hon. Member for Calder Valley noted that he is Although it is devastating for anybody to be flooded, furious at the Government’s inaction, and I agree. The we must remember that one in six properties in England hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) said the are susceptible to flood risk. The storms flooded over flooding should have been raised in Cobra, and I agree. 3,400 properties in February. Yes, that is terrible for the Any Member who wants to stand up for their community people who are flooded, but it is equivalent to less than and all the areas affected by the recent storms and by 0.1% of all properties at risk in England. I point out to years of inaction should support our motion this afternoon. the shadow Minister that that compares with the 17,000 Let us show that we care about those affected, let us properties flooded in 2015, so the situation is a great rededicate ourselves to the fight against climate change deal better. and, once and for all, let the Prime Minister show that Thousands of properties have been protected by the he cares, that he is up to the job and that he will not let permanent and temporary flood defences about which down hundreds of thousands of people when they need we have heard so much today.More than 128,000 properties their Government more than ever. I commend this motion have been protected this winter, despite the record river to the House. level rises. Many colleagues have shared their experiences to show how flood defences have helped and have worked. 3.50 pm I am grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, Gloucester (Richard Graham) and for Tonbridge and Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): As ever, it is a Malling (Tom Tugendhat), who gave good examples of pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Madam Deputy that. Speaker. In addition, people are becoming more aware of their Unfortunately, as we all know, flooding does not risk of flooding. Digital services, such as the online discriminate, as shown by the many impassioned speeches flood warnings and alerts provided by the Environment from hon. Members on both sides of the House. Flooding Agency, which I hope the shadow Secretary of State has affects all constituencies, and I thank every single Member had a look at, because they are rather good—[Interruption.] who has contributed today. He gets them himself, which is excellent. They have had 3.1 million hits so far, and this is very important, Before I continue, I will mention the marvellous maiden because individually we need to take responsibility for speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe resilience. On that note of awareness of risk, I wish to (Holly Mumby-Croft), the granddaughter of a veteran respond to comments of the hon. Member for Rhondda steelworker. She brought to life his world, her world and (Chris Bryant) about the coal tips. Just to clarify, let me the world of Scunthorpe. It was vivid and fascinating to say that the Secretary of State for Wales has met local hear about the steel industry, toecaps and all. I know partners, including the Welsh Government and the UK she will make a great contribution to this House, and Coal Authority, and it is the UK Coal Authority that she is very welcome. has been collecting and analysing data on the situation. At the outset, I add my condolences to those of the Based on that data, which has been gathered quickly, it whole House to the families and friends of those who will establish a schedule of inspections. That will start sadly lost their life as a result of these storms. I also give with dealing with those areas with the highest risk. my heartfelt thoughts to those who have been flooded. I have seen the impact at first hand in Bewdley, Chris Bryant: Just say, “In Rhondda.” Worcester and Calder Valley—some of my family live near Bewdley—and I experienced the terrible flooding in Rebecca Pow: I want to point out that this is still a live Somerset in 2013-14. Some of the impact of that flooding, flooding incident and the outlook is unsettled, although on both individuals and businesses, is still imprinted on I am pleased to say that in some areas the journey to my mind. recovery is beginning. Like many others, I pay tribute to all the responders As the Secretary of State pointed out, the Government who are managing this ongoing incident and supporting have acted swiftly to support those affected. We have flooded communities, and to the emergency services, supported the authorities by activating the Bellwin scheme. the Environment Agency, the local authorities, the Army, I take the points made by my hon. Friend the Member Government officials and multiple Departments across for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) about the need Government for their professionalism and relentlessness. for better training and perhaps better information to be Some of them have been working, and are still working, disseminated about that scheme. The flood recovery 24 hours a day. Thanks to them all, and thanks to all the network was activity on 18 February, and that triggered communities and charities working on the ground. We a series of grant payments for affected homes and have heard so much about their fantastic work. businesses. The framework was devised from lessons learned from the 2016 floods, and this is only the second Chris Bryant: Will the Minister give way? time that it has been triggered. The shadow team called for another review,but yesterday Rebecca Pow: I will not take any interventions, because we held a meeting where MPs could talk to the Environment I want to refer to a lot of Members who have spoken. Agency and feed in all their information, data and I reiterate that this has been an unprecedented time. findings, yet only one Labour Member turned up—all February 2020 was the wettest February on record in the rest there were Conservative Members, feeding in England and, indeed, right across the UK. Some places and reviewing constantly, as is happening all the time 897 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 898 with the flood recovery framework. That is what it is Ashworth, Jonathan Gibson, Patricia there for; people are constantly feeding in from local Barker, Paula Gill, Preet Kaur authorities, from places on the ground, and from flood Beckett, rh Margaret Glindon, Mary forums, as are MPs and all the rest. Begum, Apsana Grady, Patrick Benn, rh Hilary Grant, Peter I wish to touch quickly on insurance, because many Betts, Mr Clive Green, Kate Members have raised that issue. In 2016, the joint Blackford, rh Ian Greenwood, Lilian Government and industry initiative launched Flood Re Blake, Olivia Greenwood, Margaret to improve the availability and affordability of flood Blomfield, Paul Griffith, Nia insurance for at-risk properties. Before that, only 9% of Brabin, Tracy Gwynne, Andrew those households could get hold of flood insurance, Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Haigh, Louise whereas now 100% can get quotes from two or more Brennan, Kevin Hamilton, Fabian insurers. However, we are looking further at insurance Brock, Deidre Hardy, Emma cover through an independent review; the Government Brown, Ms Lyn Harman, rh Ms Harriet are already undertaking a review, so there is no need to Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Harris, Carolyn have another review into this. We announced that on Bryant, Chris Hayes, Helen 27 December and once the information has been gathered Buck, Ms Karen Healey, rh John in, details will be announced in due course. I hope that Burgon, Richard Hendry, Drew Cadbury, Ruth Hill, Mike that will assuage the concerns of the hon. Member for Cameron, Dr Lisa Hillier, Meg Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) and my hon. Friends the Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hobhouse, Wera Members for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) and Carden, Dan Hodge, rh Dame Margaret for Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson), who all called Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hodgson, Mrs Sharon for this. Obviously I wish to reiterate that the Government Chamberlain, Wendy Hollern, Kate are absolutely committed to their £2.6 billion of spending Champion, Sarah Hopkins, Rachel on flood defences and £1 billion on maintenance, and Chapman, Douglas Hosie, Stewart we have a commitment to a further £4 billion. Charalambous, Bambos Huq, Dr Rupa I wish quickly to deal with individual cases. My hon. Cherry, Joanna Jardine, Christine Friend the Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) Clark, Feryal Jarvis, Dan Cooper, Daisy Johnson, Dame Diana mentioned that the schemes are taking too long. I will Cooper, Rosie Johnson, Kim ask Sir James Bevan, from the Environment Agency, to Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Darren give an update on the progress and what is happening Corbyn, rh Jeremy Jones, Gerald there. I will of course look for the letter mentioned by Cowan, Ronnie Jones, rh Mr Kevan the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), Crawley, Angela Jones, Ruth and I apologise, because we are normally pretty fast at Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Jones, Sarah responding to people. cast by Peter Kyle) Kane, Mike On the call for help for Toronto Close in Worcester, Cruddas, Jon Keeley, Barbara the EA will continue to work with the community. Cryer, John Kendall, Liz Cummins, Judith Khan, Afzal My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole Cunningham, Alex Kinnock, Stephen (Andrew Percy) and the hon. Member for Kingston Daby, Janet Kyle, Peter upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) both mentioned Davey, rh Sir Edward Lake, Ben the flood centre, which I am happy to meet to discuss. David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Garnier) was as ever an enormous champion for his Davies-Jones, Alex Law, Chris area. The Secretary of State and the Minister responsible Debbonaire, Thangam Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma for farming are looking at the three-crop rule. Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Lewis, Clive Docherty-Hughes, Martin Linden, David On the funding formula, I must reiterate to all colleagues Dodds, Anneliese Lucas, Caroline that money is handed out with regard to the number of Doogan, Dave Lynch, Holly properties at risk and the number of people at risk. The Doughty, Stephen MacNeil, Angus Brendan value of properties has nothing to do with it, and Dowd, Peter Madders, Justin deprived areas have a special focus. Duffield, Rosie Mahmood, Mr Khalid We will look at what is happening on flood plains, Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana because both the Secretary of State and I agree that Eagle, Maria Malhotra, Seema planning needs to be looked at. The Government are Edwards, Jonathan Maskell, Rachael absolutely committed on tackling flooding and will Efford, Clive Matheson, Christian Elliott, Julie McCabe, Steve have a new strategy going forward. We will be holding a Elmore, Chris McCarthy, Kerry summit in Yorkshire and will let the House know the Eshalomi, Florence McDonagh, Siobhain date of it in due course. Esterson, Bill McDonald, Andy Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the Evans, Chris McDonald, Stuart C. original words stand part of the Question. Farron, Tim McDonnell, rh John The House divided: Ayes 227, Noes 328. Farry, Stephen McFadden, rh Mr Pat Division No. 37] [3.59 pm Fellows, Marion McGinn, Conor Ferrier, Margaret McGovern, Alison AYES Fletcher, Colleen McKinnell, Catherine Fovargue, Yvonne McLaughlin, Anne Abbott, rh Ms Diane Ali, Tahir Foxcroft, Vicky McMahon, Jim Abrahams, Debbie Amesbury, Mike Foy, Mary Kelly McMorrin, Anna Ali, Rushanara Anderson, Fleur Furniss, Gill Mearns, Ian 899 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 900
Mishra, Navendu Sheppard, Tommy Campbell, Mr Gregory Gideon, Jo Monaghan, Carol Siddiq, Tulip Carter, Andy Girvan, Paul Moran, Layla Slaughter, Andy Cartlidge, James Glen, John Morden, Jessica Smith, Cat Cash, Sir William Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Morgan, Mr Stephen Smith, Jeff Cates, Miriam Gove, rh Michael Morris, Grahame Smith, Nick Chope, Sir Christopher Graham, Richard Murray, Ian Smyth, Karin Churchill, Jo Grant, Mrs Helen Murray, James Sobel, Alex Clark, rh Greg Gray, James Newlands, Gavin Spellar, rh John Clarke, Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Nichols, Charlotte Stephens, Chris Clarke, Theo Green, Chris Nicolson, John Stevens, Jo Clarke-Smith, Brendan Green, rh Damian Norris, Alex Stone, Jamie Clarkson, Chris Griffith, Andrew O’Hara, Brendan Streeting, Wes Cleverly, rh James Griffiths, Kate Olney, Sarah Stringer, Graham Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Gullis, Jonathan Onwurah, Chi Sultana, Zarah Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Halfon, rh Robert Oppong-Asare, Abena Tami, rh Mark Colburn, Elliot Hall, Luke Osamor, Kate Tarry, Sam Collins, Damian Hammond, Stephen Osborne, Kate Thewliss, Alison Costa, Alberto Hancock, rh Matt Oswald, Kirsten Thomas, Gareth Courts, Robert Hands, rh Greg Owatemi, Taiwo Thomas-Symonds, Nick Coutinho, Claire Harper, rh Mr Mark Owen, Sarah (Proxy vote cast Thompson, Owen Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca by Kate Osamor) Thomson, Richard Crabb, rh Stephen Harrison, Trudy Peacock, Stephanie Thornberry, rh Emily Crosbie, Virginia Hart, Sally-Ann Percy, Andrew Timms, rh Stephen Crouch, Tracey Hart, rh Simon Perkins, Mr Toby Trickett, Jon Daly, James Hayes, rh Sir John Phillips, Jess Twigg, Derek Davies, David T. C. Heald, rh Sir Oliver Phillipson, Bridget Vaz, rh Valerie Davies, Gareth Heaton-Harris, Chris Pollard, Luke Webbe, Claudia Davies, Dr James Henderson, Gordon Qureshi, Yasmin West, Catherine Davies, Mims Henry, Darren Reed, Steve Whitehead, Dr Alan Davies, Philip Higginbotham, Antony Rees, Christina Whitford, Dr Philippa Davis, rh Mr David Hinds, rh Damian Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Whitley, Mick Davison, Dehenna Holden, Mr Richard by Bambos Charalambous) Williams, Hywel Dinenage, Caroline Hollinrake, Kevin Reeves, Rachel Wilson, Munira Dines, Miss Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Reynolds, Jonathan Winter, Beth Docherty, Leo Holmes, Paul Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Wishart, Pete Howell, John Rimmer, Ms Marie Donelan, Michelle Howell, Paul Yasin, Mohammad Rodda, Matt Dorries, Ms Nadine Huddleston, Nigel Zeichner, Daniel Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Double, Steve Hudson, Dr Neil Saville Roberts, rh Liz Tellers for the Ayes: Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Jane Shah, Naz Liz Twist and Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Tom Sharma, Mr Virendra Matt Western Drax, Richard Javid, rh Sajid Drummond, Mrs Flick Jayawardena, Mr Ranil NOES Duguid, David Jenkin, Sir Bernard Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jenkinson, Mark Afolami, Bim Benton, Scott Dunne, rh Philip Jenrick, rh Robert Afriyie, Adam Beresford, Sir Paul Eastwood, Mark Johnson, rh Boris Ahmad Khan, Imran Berry, rh Jake (Proxy vote Edwards, Ruth Johnson, Dr Caroline Aiken, Nickie cast by Stuart Andrew) Ellis, rh Michael Johnson, Gareth Aldous, Peter Bhatti, Saqib Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnston, David Allan, Lucy Blackman, Bob Eustice, rh George Jones, Andrew Amess, Sir David Blunt, Crispin Evans, Dr Luke Jones, rh Mr David Anderson, Lee Bone, Mr Peter Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Fay Anderson, Stuart Bottomley, Sir Peter Everitt, Ben Jones, Mr Marcus Andrew, Stuart Bowie, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Jupp, Simon Ansell, Caroline Bradley, Ben Farris, Laura Kawczynski, Daniel Argar, Edward Bradley, rh Karen Fell, Simon Keegan, Gillian Atherton, Sarah Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Katherine Knight, rh Sir Greg Atkins, Victoria Braverman, rh Suella Fletcher, Mark Knight, Julian Bacon, Gareth Brereton, Jack Fletcher, Nick Kruger, Danny Bacon, Mr Richard Bridgen, Andrew Ford, Vicky Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Brine, Steve Foster, Kevin Lamont, John cast by Leo Docherty) Bristow, Paul Fox, rh Dr Liam Largan, Robert Bailey, Shaun Britcliffe, Sara Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Mrs Pauline Baillie, Siobhan Browne, Anthony Frazer, Lucy Levy, Ian Baker, Duncan Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George Lewer, Andrew Baker, Mr Steve Buchan, Felicity Freer, Mike Lewis, rh Brandon Baldwin, Harriett Buckland, rh Robert Fysh, Mr Marcus Lewis, rh Dr Julian Barclay, rh Steve Burghart, Alex Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Baron, Mr John Burns, rh Conor Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lockhart, Carla Baynes, Simon Butler, Rob Gibb, rh Nick Loder, Chris Bell, Aaron Cairns, rh Alun Gibson, Peter Logan, Mark 901 Flooding 4 MARCH 2020 Flooding 902
Longhi, Marco Pawsey, Mark Stewart, Bob Villiers, rh Theresa Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Penning, rh Sir Mike Stewart, Iain Wakeford, Christian by Lee Rowley) Penrose, John Streeter, Sir Gary Walker, Sir Charles Lopresti, Jack Philp, Chris Stride, rh Mel Walker, Mr Robin Lord, Mr Jonathan Pincher, rh Christopher Stuart, Graham Wallis, Dr Jamie Loughton, Tim Poulter, Dr Dan Sturdy, Julian Warburton, David Mackinlay, Craig Pow, Rebecca Sunderland, James Warman, Matt Mackrory, Cherilyn Prentis, Victoria Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Watling, Giles Mak, Alan Pursglove, Tom Syms, Sir Robert Webb, Suzanne Malthouse, Kit Quin, Jeremy Thomas, Derek Whately, Helen Mangnall, Anthony Quince, Will Throup, Maggie Wheeler, Mrs Heather Mann, Scott Randall, Tom Timpson, Edward Whittaker, Craig Marson, Julie Redwood, rh John Tolhurst, Kelly Whittingdale, rh Mr John Mayhew, Jerome Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill Maynard, Paul Richards, Nicola Tomlinson, Michael Wild, James McCartney, Jason Richardson, Angela Tracey, Craig Williams, Craig McCartney, Karl Roberts, Rob Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Williamson, rh Gavin McPartland, Stephen Robertson, Mr Laurence Trott, Laura Wilson, rh Sammy McVey, rh Esther Robinson, Gavin Truss, rh Elizabeth Wragg, Mr William Merriman, Huw Robinson, Mary Tugendhat, Tom Tellers for the Noes: Metcalfe, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Eddie Hughes and Millar, Robin Ross, Douglas Vickers, Matt Maria Caulfield Miller, rh Mrs Maria Rowley, Lee Milling, rh Amanda Russell, Dean Mills, Nigel Rutley, David Question accordingly negatived. Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sambrook, Gary Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Mohindra, Gagan Saxby, Selaine That the proposed words be there added. Moore, Damien Scully, Paul Moore, Robbie Seely, Bob Question agreed to. Morris, Anne Marie Selous, Andrew Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Morris, James Shannon, Jim Resolved, Morrissey, Joy Shelbrooke, rh Alec That this House notes the damage caused by Storms Ciara, Mullan, Dr Kieran Simmonds, David Dennis and Jorge and expresses thanks to workers from the Mumby-Croft, Holly Skidmore, rh Chris Environment Agency, emergency services, local councils and Mundell, rh David Smith, Chloe volunteers; acknowledges that following the Pitt Review in 2008, Murray, Mrs Sheryll Smith, Greg local and national response was significantly improved through Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Smith, Henry the establishment of Local Resilience Forums which have led to Neill, Sir Robert Smith, rh Julian partnership working and in addition, the Cross Review in 2018 Nokes, rh Caroline Smith, Royston which led to the publication of new guidance on multi-agency Norman, rh Jesse Solloway, Amanda flood plans; further acknowledges that following the National O’Brien, Neil Spencer, Dr Ben Flood Resilience Review in 2016 there were further improvements Offord, Dr Matthew Spencer, rh Mark through the establishment of the National Flood Response Centre Opperman, Guy Stafford, Alexander and improved weather and flood forecasting capabilities, but Parish, Neil Stephenson, Andrew recognises that extreme weather events are becoming more frequent Patel, rh Priti Stevenson, Jane and that further investment in flood defence infrastructure will be Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stevenson, John necessary in the years ahead. 903 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 904
Health Inequalities more than 100 years, life expectancy has essentially flattened overall since 2010, and has actually declined Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I for women in the poorest areas of England. In last inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected the week’s Opposition day debate, the Health Secretary amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. told Opposition Members that we must debate these issues based on the facts. In fairness, he said that there were life expectancy differences between, for example, 4.15 pm Blackpool and Buckingham. [Interruption.] Indeed—gulfs. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): I The Secretary of State made that point. If I may say so, beg to move, however, I do not believe that he was as clear as he That this House notes the publication of Health Equity in could have been in presenting the full picture for the England: The Marmot Review 10 Years On; is concerned by its benefit of Members. When we look at the figures, we see findings that since 2010 improvements to life expectancy have that for more than 100 years, life expectancy has been stalled for the first time in more than 100 years and declined for increasing by about one year every four years. More the poorest women in society, that the health gap between wealthy recently, from 2001 to 2010, the increase was 0.3 years and deprived areas has grown, and that the amount of time for each calendar year for men and 0.23 years for people spend in poor health has increased across England; agrees with the review that these avoidable health inequalities have been women. Between 2011 and 2018, the average rate of exacerbated by cuts to public spending and can be reduced with increase was 0.07 years for males and 0.04 years for the right policies; and calls on the Government to end austerity, women. By any standards, that is a truly dramatic invest in public health, implement the recommendations of the lowering in the rate of improvement in life expectancy review, publish public health allocations for this April as a matter between 2011 and 2018. of urgency, and bring forward a world-leading health inequalities strategy to take action on the social determinants of health. Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab): The latest A former Health Secretary, Frank Dobson, whom we figures for my city of Sheffield show that life expectancy sadly lost towards the end of last year, said: is nearly nine years more for women from the least “Inequality in health is the worst inequality of all. There is no deprived decile than the most deprived, and that gap more serious inequality than knowing that you’ll die sooner has widened significantly since 2010. Does my hon. because you’re badly off.” Friend agree that, as we approach International Women’s He was absolutely right. Poverty and deprivation mean Day and the Budget, we must be mindful of the toll that that people become ill quicker and die sooner. The austerity has taken on our cities and across the country, current Health Secretary—I understand why he cannot especially in relation to life expectancy and quality of be here for this debate; I do not criticise him for that, life? given what is going on, and we welcome the Under- Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds Jonathan Ashworth: I welcome my hon. Friend to her (Jo Churchill), to the Chamber—said, when we last place. She is already an eloquent and passionate fighter debated health inequalities, that for her constituents in Sheffield, and the point she “extending healthy life expectancies is a central goal of the makes is spot on: the reality is that 10 years of austerity Government, and we will move heaven and earth to make it has hit women hardest. happen.”—[Official Report, 14 May 2019; Vol. 660, c. 153.] Well,lastweektherespectedacademic,SirMichaelMarmot, Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): Will my hon. gave us his assessment of the Government’s attempts to Friend give way? move heaven and earth to narrow those inequalities and extend healthy life expectancy. Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I absolutely Jonathan Ashworth: I will give way to my hon. Friend, congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this crucial but then I must make some progress because, as I issue to the Chamber. The health inequalities that we understand it, some Members want to make maiden have seen in our communities are bad enough, and the speeches in the debate. additional inequalities regarding access to GP appointments are even worse, but we are also seeing cuts in local Zarah Sultana: I thank my hon. Friend for giving government funding hitting the most deprived areas and way. Health inequalities between regions are stark, but adding to those inequalities we are already aware of. there are also huge disparities across short distances. In my constituency,the life expectancy of men in St Michael’s Jonathan Ashworth: My hon. Friend makes that point is 13 years shorter than it is of men just 2.5 miles away very well. Not only are there inequalities in health in Stoneleigh, just south of Coventry. Does he agree outcomes, but inequalities are opening up in access to that to reduce those shocking health differences, the health services. Government need to tackle underlying economic inequality I said that I understood why the Secretary of State and systemic poverty, and reverse 10 years of Tory cuts? cannot be here, but he has now joined his colleagues on the Front Bench. I will state, just for the record so that Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. he can be reassured, that I did not criticise him for not The hon. Lady’s intervention might not have seemed being here—I said that I entirely understood why he very long to her, and I appreciate that she is new to the could not be here. But he is always welcome to listen to House, but it was very long. I thank the hon. Member my pearls of wisdom, of course. for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) for what he Michael Marmot’s analysis was shocking, and his said before he took that intervention. It would be much conclusions devastating. Let me remind the House of appreciated if the Front-Bench spokespeople took only what Professor Marmot found: for the first time in a few interventions. This is a debate—we can have some 905 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 906 interventions—but if Members who intend to intervene warned about deaths of despair, pointing out that rates and then leave take up all the time at the beginning of of long-standing illness and disability among people the debate, those who sit here all afternoon will not get aged 25 to 54 have been increasing since 2013. The to speak at the end. We are talking about unfairness Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health has here, and that is unfair. The hon. Gentleman has been today warned of stalling infant mortality rates and how most courteous, and I know that the Minister has also a generation of children is being failed. been courteous in saying that she intends to take only a I am afraid that this does not suggest that the few interventions. Government are “moving heaven and earth”, in the words of the Secretary of State, to tackle widening Jonathan Ashworth: I am grateful, Madam Deputy health inequalities, and it does not fill us with much Speaker, but the point made by my hon. Friend the confidence that the Secretary of State is on target to Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) was an meet his goal of five years’ longer healthy life expectancy excellent one. She is right: this variance in life expectancy by 2035. Will the Minister update us on how we are and these widening health inequalities are surely intolerable, getting on in meeting that target? and we have been sent here by our constituents to do I hope that the Minister, who has responsibility for something about it. public health, will also give us some reassurance about Taking your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, I the Government’s plans to mitigate the health inequality will try not to take any further interventions, because I implications of the covid-19 outbreak. May I press her am aware that Members want to make maiden speeches. to explain exactly what the Prime Minister meant at I am sure that Members who have been in the House a Question Time earlier? Is the Prime Minister saying bit longer will testify that I am usually very generous in that statutory sick pay will kick in from day one? If so, taking interventions. I hope Members will understand. we welcome that, but because of low pay, the earnings I dare say that the Minister will pray in aid the Office threshold, precarious work, the gig economy and zero-hours for National Statistics data that came out last night, but contracts, about 2 million people are not eligible for that is just a single data point. The ONS data also statuary sick pay. The Prime Minister seemed to suggest shows that regional inequalities in health have widened at Question Time that such people would be eligible for since 2010 and confirms that life expectancy for women universal credit, but the Government’s own guidance—I in the most deprived decile outside London and the checked the website just before the debate—makes the north-west has fallen. The rate of increase in life expectancy position crystal clear. The Government’s website says: slowed markedly after 2010, which just happens to “It usually takes around 5 weeks to get your first payment” coincide with the swingeing cuts to public services and in respect of universal credit. The public health implications working-age benefits that the Tory Government imposed of that should be blindingly obvious: some of the upon our society. lowest-paid workers who need to self-isolate will be When life expectancy stops improving, inequalities forced to make a choice between their health and financial widen and health deteriorates. That is why Sir Michael hardship. Surely it would be far simpler and smoother Marmot found that time spent in poor health is increasing just to guarantee statutory sick pay for everyone from for men and women in the most deprived areas of day one. England. He found that there is a north-south gap There are also practical problems with sick notes. opening up, with some of the largest decreases seen in People are being asked to self-isolate for a fortnight, but the most deprived 10% of neighbourhoods in the north-east. as the Secretary of State himself said yesterday, self- He found that the mortality rate among those aged 45 certification lasts for only seven days. Will this now be to 49 is increasing. So-called deaths of despair—the extended from one week to two weeks? I put it to the combined effect of increasing death rates from suicide, Minister, as I put it to the Secretary of State yesterday, drug abuse and alcohol-related illness—are a phenomenon that we will co-operate and help the Government with we have seen for many years in the United States, and emergency legislation to ensure that statutory sick pay they are now making their morbid presence felt here. for all from day one is on the statue book as quickly as Perhaps most shamefully of all, the most deprived possible. Will Ministers take up our offer? 10% of children are now twice as likely to die as the I dare say that the Minister will want to remind us of most advantaged 10% of children, with children in the funding settlement for the NHS for the next four more deprived areas more likely to face a serious illness years, but she will not be able to remind us of the public during childhood and to have a long-term disability. health funding settlement for local authorities for the Surely this stands as a devastating and shameful verdict next month because Ministers have not told local authorities on 10 years of Tory austerity and cuts. Of course, we what their public health allocations are for the next have always had health inequalities since the NHS was financial year, which starts next month. It is not good created 70-odd years ago, but the point is that the enough to say that the grant overall will increase. These Government should be trying to narrow them, not widen are services that prevent ill health and promote health them, because as Professor Marmot says, and wellbeing, as she knows, and those services have “if health has stopped improving it is a sign that society has been left teetering after years of real-terms cuts of stopped improving.” about £1 billion. Smoking cessation services have been Perhaps some will quibble with Marmot’s findings, cut, obesity services have been cut and drug and alcohol but they coincide with what others have found. For services have been cut, while health visitor numbers are example, the all-party group on longevity found a few falling, school nurse numbers are falling and mandated weeks ago that men and women in our poorest areas are health visits are abandoned, yet directors of public diagnosed with significant long-term conditions when health are expected to plan for the next 12 months when they are, on average, only 49 and 47 years old respectively. they have not even been given their local public health The Institute for Fiscal Studies’ Deaton review has also allocations. When will they be published? Weare expecting 907 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 908
[Jonathan Ashworth] 4.32 pm directors of public health to put in place plans to deal The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health with the covid-19 outbreak, and they do not even know and Social Care (JoChurchill): I beg to move an amendment, their budget lines. That is clearly irresponsible and leave out from “10 Years On” to end and insert: unsustainable. “notes that Government is committed to level up outcomes to reduce the health gap between wealthy and deprived areas, and It is not just about health funding, however, because supports the Government’s commitment to delivering long-term that does not tell the full story, as the Secretary of State, improvements for everyone no matter who they are, where they in fairness to him, has recognised. He has said before live or their social circumstances.” that First, I would like to say that I really welcome this “only around a quarter of what leads to longer, healthier lives debate on health inequalities, which will help us all to is…what happens in hospitals.” discuss the challenges that we face. Every single one of We need the Government to focus on the wider social us, no matter who we are, where we live, or our social determinants of ill health, too: the childhood experiences circumstances, deserves to live a long and healthy life. we are all exposed to; the neighbourhoods we grow up Our determination to level up and reduce inequalities in; the schools we are nurtured in; the conditions of the by improving the health of the poorest fastest is clear. work that we do, especially in today’s gig economy; The recent 10-year anniversary report produced by the food we eat; the quality of air we breathe; and the Professor Marmot comprehensively highlights the support we rely on in our older years. important issues, and I thank him for his tireless work Whether it is air pollution, the toxic stress of precarious in this space, because much of what he drew in the 2010 work or how the benefits system operates, it is those in report is similar to now: these are really complex issues poverty whose health suffers as a result. Just last week, that are very hard to tackle. a longitudinal study in The Lancet found that universal credit is exacerbating mental health issues among claimants, Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): The causing tens of thousands to experience depression Minister will be aware that 64,000 people die prematurely and mental distress. The Government cannot deny the from air quality problems, at a cost of £20 billion, and links between poverty and ill health, because poverty, as she is probably aware that those deaths tend to be Sir Michael Marmot says, “has a grip” on our nation. concentrated among poorer areas and poorer families, Some 14 million adults live below the poverty line. We so does she agree that we should take decisive action on have record food bank usage. More than 4,000 of our such things as the electrification of cars and diesel duty fellow citizens sleep rough on our streets, a huge increase so that we reduce overall deaths and thereby have a go since 2010, and over 700 die on our streets. at reducing health inequalities as well? The poverty a child experiences harms their health at that time and through the rest of their life. Child Jo Churchill: The hon. Gentleman makes a good poverty impairs cognitive development and creates an point, but it typifies the problems we deal with, because environment in which mental health and emotional air pollution is the responsibility of the Department for disorders fester. Children in poverty are more likely to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department be obese, less likely to be up to date with immunisations, for Transport and the Department of Health and Social and more likely to be admitted to hospital, yet under Care. They all have a role to play, and we must ensure this Government, the number of children living in we take account of that—it is important that we think poverty has already risen to 4 million, and we have about all these different challenges. Helping people to reports of children scavenging in bins. We have 120,000 live longer healthier lives while narrowing the gap between children pushed from pillar to post in temporary the richest and the poorest needs action, a point made accommodation—a huge increase under the Tories. The by the hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana). working-age benefit cuts that are set to come in will push child poverty levels to the highest since records Mr Perkins: Will the Minister give way? began in 1961—higher than even in the Thatcher years. That is not levelling up; that is condemning future generations to ill health and shorter lives. Jo Churchill: If the hon. Gentleman will just bear But poverty need not be inevitable and life expectancy with me and let me make a little more progress, I will does not have to stall. This House should not let health come back to him. inequality leave an indelible stain on our society. There Going forward, I am clear that we must integrate is a better way, and I commend our motion to the good health into decisions on housing, transport, education, House. welfare and the economy,because we know that preventing ill health, both physical and mental, is about more than Several hon. Members rose— just access to our health services.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): Before I call the Minister to move the Government In his opening remarks, the Opposition spokesman amendment, I should tell the House that we will start mentioned smoking cessation just once, yet we know with a time limit on Back-Bench speeches of seven that over half the excess mortality between social classes minutes, but that will very soon reduce to around five is directly attributable to smoking. Does the Minister minutes, as there is a very large number of people who agree that we will not make progress on this important wish to speak. I am trying to keep the time limit a little subject unless we get real about this vile poison that has, more flexible for those who are making their maiden unfortunately, picked off the poorest for decades and speeches. decades? It must stop. 909 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 910
Jo Churchill: I will come on to that point in a few illnesses and driving healthy lives. The NHS long-term minutes, if my right hon. Friend will bear with me. plan contains commitments that outline the role the NHS can play in supporting that shift. Mr Perkins: The Minister is right that this is a very We are passionate, and I am passionate, about our complicated issue and that health inequalities have existed commitment to an NHS that is fit for the future. That is for a considerable amount of time. On the research she why we are funding it with an extra £33.9 billion. refers to, will she tell us whether local government cuts, which have been greater in the poorest areas, with a Debbie Abrahams: I commend the Minister for many significant reduction in health education and prevention of the points she is making. I want to clarify the point work, were mentioned as factors for why this continues about interdepartmental work. We know from seminal to be such a major problem? works such as “The Spirit Level” that when we reduce the gaps between rich and poor, focusing not just on Jo Churchill: The problems we are dealing with are income but on wealth and power inequalities, we get complex across the piece, which is why we have held the increases in life expectancy across the community, as public health budget at the same level this year so that well as in social mobility, educational attainment and so we can start to deliver on them. It is important that on. If the Government recognise that, will they commit local people have local ownership over the issues and to considering what impact policies will have on health challenges in their area, because one size will not fit all. inequalities as they are being developed?
Jonathan Ashworth rose— Jo Churchill: The hon. Lady will appreciate that I cannot speak for all Departments, but it is my job to Jo Churchill: If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me drive home the value of health in those Departments for just a few minutes, I want to push on rather than and to ensure that, as she says, we think about the broader incur the wrath of Madam Deputy Speaker. consequences across the policy-making piece. I am clear that there must be integration across In answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Departments, because dealing with these issues is about South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), smoking does having a warm home that is suitable for you and those remain one of the most significant public health challenges. you love, and about having an environment that sustains It affects disadvantaged groups in particular and exacerbates your health. It is about good education, so that people inequalities. That is particularly apparent when looking are equipped with the skills to look after their health. It at smoking rates in pregnancy. Three weeks ago, I is about having jobs that are purposeful and rewarding. visited Tameside Hospital in Greater Manchester to see The health inequalities challenge is stubborn, persistent its smoking cessation work. It started with a much and difficult to change, and I recognise the enthusiasm, higher than average smoking rate, and having a tailored energy and frustration that those who will speak in this public health budget in the locality has allowed it drive debate will bring. The Government have firmly signalled down into the inequality within the community. It has a their intention to take bold action on these issues. We specialist smoking cessation midwife to help these young are committed to reducing inequalities and levelling up. women, their families and their partners give up smoking— To be effective in reducing health inequalities, we need a for their own health, yes, but also for the health of their long-term sustainable approach across all Departments. babies. Early onset diseases, disability and avoidable mortality are concentrated in poor areas, so this is where we must Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) act if we are going to make the system fairer. (LD): I packed in smoking 15 years ago. I cannot understand why the NHS does not use people like me to Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) go out there and help other people pack it in. (Lab): Will the Minister give way? Jo Churchill: I thank the hon. Member—he has just Jo Churchill: I ask the hon. Lady to bear with me for got himself a job as an ambassador. I congratulate him just a minute. on quitting smoking, because it is hard. It is important that we improve those with the worst- The specialist centre showed me that with the right affected health the fastest. It is unacceptable that a man holistic support and encouragement, the health of both born in Blackpool today can expect 53 years of healthy mum and baby can be improved. Such services will be life, while a man born in Buckinghamshire gets 68 years. crucial in achieving the ambition of becoming a smoke-free We know that there is also inter-area variation, which is society by 2030. unacceptable. Wehave an opportunity to seize the initiative Similarly, we must tackle the health harms caused by to do this across the country. The ageing grand challenge alcohol, and support those who are most vulnerable is to ensure that everybody can enjoy a further five years and at risk from alcohol misuse. Through the NHS of healthy life by 2035, while narrowing the gap between plan, up to 50 hospitals with the highest rates of alcohol rich and poor. dependency-related admissions will have alcohol care We set out our intentions in the prevention Green teams. That could prevent more than 50,000 admissions Paper published last year. The public consultation closed every five years. Currently, eight of those teams are in in October, following significant engagement. We had operation, providing seven-day services focused on those some 1,600 responses, which is more than double the areas with the highest levels of admissions related to average the Department usually receives from such public alcohol dependency. consultations. We are analysing the responses and Alcohol addiction has a devastating impact on individuals developing our reply, which we will publish shortly. We and their families, and it is unfair that children bear the want to shift the focus from treating illnesses to preventing brunt of their children’s condition. I know that this 911 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 912
[Jo Churchill] proved highly successful, with a fill rate of close to 100% last year, and over-subscription in many parts of topic is dear to the heart of the hon. Member for the country. For that reason, we will increase the places Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), who has spoken on the TERS from 276 to 500 in 2021, and then up to about it movingly. I pay tribute to the way he has 800 in 2020, to make sure that we get the skilled staff in influenced this agenda in this place. I am pleased so say the areas where they can do most good. that we are investing another £6 million over three years Practices,working together within primary care networks, to help fund support for this vulnerable group. will be asked to take action on health inequalities, to be As is often the case with addiction, there is a toxic agreed as part of the next 2021-22 GP contract. What mixture of several items. On substance misuse, last happens in one’s early years, even before one pops out Thursday I attended the UK-wide drug summit in into the world, has an impact well into later life. Pregnancy Glasgow,along with Home Office Ministers and Ministers and early years are therefore a key time to have an from the devolved Administrations. We discussed the impact on inequalities. In particular,the fact that women’s challenges associated with drug misuse and listened to life expectancy is so challenged is of acute importance Dame Carol Black present her findings from the first to me. We have many challenges as we travel through phase of her review. I am pleased that my Department life, and making sure that we are equipped to make the will fund and commission the second phase of the best of our lives, particularly as we often act as primary review, which will make policy recommendations on carers, is hugely important. treatment, prevention and recovery. Only through the Pregnancy and early years are a key time to have an combined efforts of different Departments working impact on inequalities. Many babies do get a fantastic together can we hope holistically to improve the health start, but sadly it is not the case for everyone. Children and other outcomes of people with substance misuse in more deprived areas are more likely to be exposed to problems. Many of us know from our constituency avoidable risks and have poorer outcomes by the time work that they often bounce between various parts of they start school. It is right that all universal support the system. Local authority leadership and action on has a focus on reducing inequalities, and that it is public health prevention is vital as it will help to focus targeting investment to meet higher needs. Many children local measures to decrease health inequalities. As a are benefiting from investment in childcare and early condition of receiving long term plan funding, every years education. Fifteen hours of free early years education local area across England must set out specific and for disadvantaged two-year-olds and 15 hours of free measurable goals, and ways by which they will narrow early years education for all three and four-year-olds is health inequalities over the next five and 10 years. Local key.Wehave also announced our commitment to modernise areas know their localities best. the healthy child programme to reflect the latest evidence to support families. Jonathan Ashworth: I thank the Minister for her kind words about me a few moments ago. It is an issue dear to my heart and, as she knows, I have run three London Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): Will the Minister marathons to raise funds for alcohol charities—although give way? that is not how I am proposing to fund services in the future. Jo Churchill: No, I am going to push on. I would The Minister has to recognise that whether it is particularly like to give those people making their maiden smoking cessation services—I am sure the right hon. speech, which is hugely important, the time to do so. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) was For a good start in life, we need to do better in oral not implying that I do not think that smoking cessation health. Tooth decay is the most common oral disease is important—or drug and alcohol services, they have among children, affecting one in four by the time they suffered from a number of cuts. Directors of public start school, and it is the most common reason for health are desperate to know what their funding grant admission to hospital for children aged five to nine. It is will be for the next financial year, starting in four weeks’ largely preventable. Improving the oral health of children time. Can she tell us when they will know what their is a Public Health England priority, and a number of allocations will be, so they can fund all the work that actions are under way. Supervised tooth-brushing and she is talking about? water fluoridation are two evidence-based areas in which we want to go further. When I met a number of dentists Jo Churchill: I appreciate that they need to know recently and asked them what they would do if they had those figures, and they will know them extremely shortly. the key that would enable them to do anything, they I strongly believe that high-quality primary care is said that water fluoridation would be one of the key also crucial to early and preventive treatment, and key measures to reduce childhood inequality across the to reducing the health inequalities we are discussing. country. In 2016-17, one in six children had tooth decay We are improving access to primary care by creating an in the south-east compared with one in three in the extra 50 million appointments in general practice within north, and the variation is even greater among local the next five years, growing the workforce by 6,000 more authorities. I am delighted that two authorities, Durham doctors and 26,000 more wider primary care professionals. and Northumberland County Councils,recently announced Within that, we want to target NHS resources, so that formal proposals to increase water fluoridation, and I they can help their localities to level up. Through the hope to be able to facilitate that. targeted enhanced recruitment scheme, we are recruiting Obesity is a challenge. It is shocking that children in trainees to work in the areas of the country where we poorer parts of the country are more than twice as have had vacancies for years, particularly rural and likely to be overweight or obese. Children who are coastal areas, such as Plymouth, and the coastal area of overweight or obese are increasingly developing type 2 County Durham and North Yorkshire. It has already diabetes and liver problems, they are more likely to 913 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 914 experience bullying, low esteem and a lower quality of Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): I agree with the life, and they are highly likely to become overweight hon. Member about the social determinants of health. adults with a higher risk of cancer and heart and liver Does she agree that, going back 10 or 15 years, to before disease. This is a huge cost to the health and wellbeing 2010, the Labour Government appreciated those of the individual, but also to the NHS and the wider determinants and directed public policy to that end? economy. National cardiovascular disease and diabetes prevention Dr Whitford: I do. I respect the work that Labour did, programmes have already been introduced, but we want and child poverty was falling. Interestingly, the upturn to go further. NHS England has delivered a diabetes in child poverty we have seen did not happen with the treatment and care programme aimed at reducing variation crash in 2008; it happened after the 2012 welfare changes. and improving outcomes for people living with diabetes, That is striking. The impact of Government policy has thus reducing inequalities. We published the third chapter been austerity in every way and in every approach to of the childhood obesity plan in July 2019, with further individuals, families and communities. We have seen measures to help to meet our ambition to halve childhood slow income growth for the vast majority of people over obesity by 2030 and reduce the gap between the most the last decade. There has been absolute inequality. The and the least deprived. We have seen some important majority of the growth that there has been, has been at successes. The average sugar content of drinks subject the top. The national living wage simply is not a living to the soft drinks industry levy decreased by 28.8% wage. More people are in insecure work—zero-hours between 2015 and 2018. Significant investment has been contracts, the gig economy—and do not have protections. made in schools to promote physical activity and healthy As the shadow Health Secretary mentioned, in all the eating. The childhood obesity trailblazer programme discussion about covid-19, we have been trying to highlight works with local authorities to address the issue at local that people on low pay and insecure contracts do not level, and that really helps, with authorities working get sick pay, yet we will be asking them to stay at home together to ensure that the messages sent to children are for two weeks and self-isolate. In the meantime, the healthy food messages. The programme has a strong wealthiest people have actually trebled their wealth. So focus on inequalities and ethnic disparities in the context categorically we have not all been in it together over the of childhood obesity, and is helping five local authorities last 10 years. to take innovative action. Wehave a lot to gain, particularly In addition, we have seen a restriction on public if we help parents, especially in the most deprived areas, expenditure. The regressive welfare cuts of 2012 and to help their children. 2016 have reduced support for families by 40%: the It is clear that there is a great deal to do. Let me benefit cap, the benefits freeze, the two-child limit, the reiterate that the Government have made real commitments five-week wait for universal credit, which puts people in to real action, and that we will increase our focus on the rent arrears and debt, personal independence payments, real challenges that people experience in their lives the bedroom tax. Eighty per cent. or more of these cuts every day. Reducing health inequalities is not an issue have affected women directly because they tend to be that truly divides the House, and I look forward to lower paid, to be carers and to rely more on services. In hearing the suggestions of Members on both sides of the main, they are responsible for children. The disabled the House so that we can move forward. Their contributions have also been particularly hard hit. We have not seen a will help to fuel our purpose. We share the common cumulative impact assessment of female lone parents goal of reducing inequalities, and we can work together who are disabled and have three or more children. Some to achieve it. of them have had their income slashed. There have been cuts to local government and services. 4.53 pm Interestingly, the least deprived areas face 16% of cuts, while the most deprived on average had 31% cut from Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): their local government budget. I have heard Labour Obviously I welcome what the Minister has said, but Members talk about between 40% and 60% cuts in their she talked about starting to take action and, given that local government budgets. There are changes in the we have had Conservative-led Governments for the last pipeline to move £300 million from local authorities in decade, I find it a bit surprising to hear talk of starting the north to the south. I wonder if that will be reversed to take action now. now that the Conservative party has won some seats in Health is much wider than the NHS. This is a confusion the north. that many people make. Health is about everything else. In his acclaimed review “Fair Society, Healthy Lives”, Jamie Stone: Some years ago, when I was a councillor, Michael Marmot defined the social determinants of I had a harrowing case involving a young female constituent health: the conditions in which people are born, grow, who was clobbered by the bedroom tax. She has multiple live, work and age. He explained that the variation was sclerosis and she was going to lose a lot of cash. I want driven by inequity in power, money and resource. The to put on the record my thanks to the Scottish Government review set out how public expenditure could act on for the action they took to ameliorate and offset that tax. the social determinants to reduce health inequalities. The problem is that, although it was welcomed by the Dr Whitford: I thank the hon. Member for that coalition Government—there was even a public health recognition. The Scottish Government are spending White Paper—no action was really taken. In contrast, more than £100 million every year in mitigating some of in 2016, we saw essentially the repeal of the Child these cuts—they pay the bedroom tax and they have set Poverty Act 2010, including the reduction targets to get up the Scottish welfare crisis fund—but that is money more children out of poverty. In the 2020 Marmot that should be going into devolved areas, not patching review, therefore, we see not success over the past 10 years, up austerity decisions here; it is not the role of the but things going in the wrong direction. Scottish Parliament just to mitigate. 915 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 916
[Dr Whitford] We know that someone’s health for most of their life is determined in the early years, even starting when their Public health in England has been cut by £850 million— mother is pregnant. Child poverty is central to this and again, the greatest cuts to the poorest areas—and it is it is rising. It is defined as children in households with exactly the same with future planned cuts. This has led less than 60% of median income. England had child to cuts in smoking cessation projects. There is no point poverty down to 27%, but it is now 31%. Scotland had it standing up and talking about the importance of stopping down to 21%, and it is now 24%. That is because smoking—we all know that. People who have smoked welfare changes are taking place right across the UK. for decades need help to stop and those services are Poverty is decided in this Chamber; it is not decided critical. We have also seen cuts to drugs and alcohol anywhere else, and the Scottish Parliament, as we have projects and to sexual health projects, and all those have heard, spends a lot of energy on trying to mitigate it. an impact on the poorest people. As we know, housing costs are a major contributor The Minister, who is no longer in her place, might because of the shortage of housing. This is a rising issue have listened to Dame Carol at the drugs summit in among the poorest: 38% of the poorest will spend 30% Glasgow but, sadly, the Minister for Crime and Policing, or more of their income on rent or housing. That figure the hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Kit was 28% 10 years ago. The Scottish Government have Malthouse), did not. He came to Glasgow, made his built 87,000 affordable houses, and that is part of why speech and then left before all the expert evidence was our child poverty level is lower. It is the housing impact. given. We also hear of a social care gap across England In the 2015 general election, the Conservatives promised of over £6 billion. Again, that affects women if they 200,000 starter homes. They built precisely zero. have to give up work to look after elderly relatives or Some 4 million children are growing up in poverty, disabled children. This rolling back of the state has and that will affect their whole lives. Whenever the issue affected the social determinants and increased health is raised at the Dispatch Box, we are told that inequalities. Child poverty has increased, as we have unemployment is down and that people must work their heard, with 4 million children affected, and 1,000 Sure way out of poverty. We are told that that is how we Start centres have been closed. Education funding is change things, yet two thirds of those children already down. There is a housing crisis and therefore a rise in have a working parent. The problem is that all of this homelessness. People with insufficient funds to afford a drives ill health. healthy life are depending on food banks, and deprived communities are simply losing hope. Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): Does the hon. Poverty is simply the biggest driver of ill health and Lady agree that children living in poverty are more has the biggest individual impact on life expectancy. likely to suffer mental health issues? They face a double The increase in life expectancy in England has stalled whammy, as the Children’s Commissioner recently found, for the first time in 120 years—the first time since 1900. in that there is also a postcode lottery in spending on The gap between the most and least deprived has widened: children and young people’s mental health, which varies the gap is now almost 10 years for women and the life between about £15 and £200 per person, depending on expectancy of some women in areas of the north-east of the area. England has dropped by almost a year. Dr Whitford: I totally accept that, and actually, children Dr Murrison: I always listen with great respect to in low-income families have three times the rate of what the hon. Member has to say, but given that the mental health problems. Three-year-olds in a household SNP has its hands on many of the levers relating to the with an income of less than £10,000 have two and a half things she has discussed this afternoon, I am assuming times the chronic diseases, and by the time they start from what she has said that Scotland is in the wonderful school, we find that the poorest children have over a position of having narrowed health inequalities. Could year’s gap in vocabulary. It is important to try to she perhaps compare and contrast what has happened balance that. That is one reason that the Scottish in Scotland with what has happened in the rest of the Government are investing in early learning for all United Kingdom? I rather think that the two are very children—all three-year-olds and four-year-olds and similar. vulnerable two-year-olds—and also have put in a pupil Dr Whitford: If the right hon. Gentleman waits to equity premium that allows the school to have additional hear the rest of my speech, I will highlight some of the funding to try to meet the challenge where they are differences in child poverty. serving poorer communities. We have seen life expectancy for those women falling, The problem starts before the child is born. A woman but when we look at healthy life expectancy, the gaps carrying a female child is carrying her grandchildren, are even bigger. Time spent in poor health is increasing, because the eggs in a female are formed in the womb. and that of course puts pressure on the NHS and care That means that if that mother is badly nourished, she services. We in this Chamber are always discussing the will be affecting health for the next two generations. pressure that the NHS is under. Emergency admissions That needs to be changed, which is why we have invested. in areas with low life expectancy are double the numbers We have the best start grant, which goes to the pregnant in wealthier areas. Women in deprived areas will now woman at birth, when the child starts nursery and when spend two decades or more of their life in poor health. the child starts school. There is also food support, Improving the healthy life expectancy by at least five because we need to change this right at the start of life. years was actually a policy in the industrial strategy, so Health and wellbeing should be an overarching priority that people could be active and engaged in the economy, for any Government and for all their citizens, regardless but what we have seen is an adverse effect both on of where they live. This requires a “Health in all policies” health and health equality. approach, not saying, “Clean air is DEFRA’s issue.” 917 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 918
We need this as a cross-government policy whereby the 2000s, which saw a step change in the ability of every decision is checked to see whether it will improve addiction services to respond to the needs of local the physical, mental and environmental wellbeing of populations. the citizens the Government are responsible for. The biggest change in the delivery of addiction services came with the Health and Social Care Act, in which Several hon. Members rose— responsibility for the commissioning of drug and alcohol Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): services moved to local authorities. I do not need to Order. As colleagues can see, a large number of Members rehearse many of the arguments, but it is worth highlighting want to contribute to the debate. I am going to impose some of the challenges we now face. A number of those an immediate seven-minute time limit. I should also challenges are a direct consequence of that change in remind hon. and right hon. Members that, if they take commissioning arrangements. interventions, that is likely to prevent others from speaking. Overall funding for treatment has fallen by 17%. It is Just bear that in mind. not possible to disaggregate alcohol and drug treatment spend, but many local authorities will have reduced 5.7 pm expenditure on drug and alcohol treatment by far larger Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) amounts, with residential services—that is in-patient (Con): Thank you for calling me, Madam Deputy Speaker, facilities—being particularly hard hit. The report says: and I draw your attention to my declaration in the “Likely many areas are now offering the bare minimum service Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a practising with large increases in worker caseloads an inevitability. The NHS psychiatrist. overall numbers in treatment have fallen at a similar rate as It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Central funding with the largest decreases seen in opiate users (and those in treatment for alcohol only).” Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), who is absolutely right to highlight the fact that health inequalities and their determinants At the same time, we are aware from Home Office go much wider than the NHS. We are talking about data that the prevalence of opiate and crack use is issues to do with housing, poverty and employment. We increasing and that the number of opiate users in treatment know that poverty and deprivation are associated with is falling, so there is a challenge for the Government poor health outcomes, both physical and mental, and to address in how those services are delivered and health inequalities. commissioned. In that respect, some of what I am going to say will We should also recognise that many people who are ask the Government to revisit legislation that we passed in need of addiction services have two or more other as part of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 in complex needs. From Dame Carol Black’s report, we relation to addiction services. That is where I shall see that over 70% are unemployed, close to 40% also concentrate my remarks, because we are all aware that need mental health treatment, over 15% are homeless addiction services treat some of the most vulnerable and over 25% have been referred from the criminal justice people in society, but face particular challenges and system. She states: treat people often with some of the lowest life expectancies. “Over 60% of opiate clients have two or more complex needs In that respect, we must recognise that the changing alongside their drug use”. commissioning arrangements, the move towards In the brief time I have left, it is worth reflecting that commissioning of addiction services by local government reduced funding is available to treat those people, but and some of the funding restraints that are present in the commissioning arrangements mean that drug and the system have impacted on the quality of service alcohol services are commissioned by local authorities delivery. and are no longer integrated or joined up with the NHS, I shall touch on Dame Carol Black’s report later, but which makes it much harder to treat people with co-existent we have seen that, in some areas, there is now minimal mental health problems; to find housing solutions, as provision in many addiction services, and local authorities the NHS does on a daily basis, for patients with a often look towards the lowest bidder to provide their housing need; and to address some of the challenges we services. I hope Members on both sides of the House face in joining up and integrating care with the criminal think that is not necessarily a good thing, because we justice system. want to see effective addiction services that make a I hope the Minister will take away those challenges. difference for patients and for the people who need them. What we see,though, is that services have deteriorated Jonathan Ashworth: Will the hon. Gentleman give over the past few years. Services have become increasingly way? fragmented, and the numbers of dependent opioid users and opioid deaths are rising. That may well be because there are greater medical comorbidities in that particular Dr Poulter: I will give way very briefly. group, and the age profile may be associated with a higher mortality rate. Jonathan Ashworth: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Dame Carol Black’s report makes some important —I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I will be points about the challenges. She includes a timeline that very brief. indicates how addiction services have been delivered, The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech, and she highlights that in 2005, under the previous and I agree with every word—I hope I have not ruined Labour Government, a ring-fenced, pooled treatment his career prospects by saying that. Does he agree that budget was created, centrally funded and allocated on the way in which services are commissioned, and the need. Additional funding contributions were made by lack of integration with wider mental health services, is local authorities, the police and the NHS. Funding leading to a problem in recruiting addiction psychiatrists increased from £50 million to nearly £500 million during into the sector? 919 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 920
Dr Poulter: Absolutely, and that key problem was brass bands. I hope that the right hon. Member for also highlighted in Dame Carol Black’s report. I should Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) has now learned that it is refer to my declaration in the Register of Members’ held in our constituency, which is very much still Labour. Financial Interests at this point. I believe that in London Toprepare for this speech, I read those of my predecessor, there are only five training posts available in addiction Roberta, and her predecessor, Gerry Steinberg, and it psychiatry. We have a lack of addiction psychiatrists, of was fascinating. Gerry’s speech was made in 1987. He trainee psychiatrists coming through with accreditation talked about the devastating levels of unemployment in the area of addictions, of nurses with a specialism in after the closure of the coal mines, and the refusal of that and of a properly trained workforce in addictions, the Thatcher Administration to tackle the resulting as a result of the commissioning arrangements. That is insecurity in people’s lives and work. This was a time of a real challenge, and we have to address it. de-industrialisation, a widening north-south divide, trade Part of the reason for that is the separate commissioning unions being crushed, a run-down NHS and the poll pathway we now have through local authorities. It was tax on the horizon. In contrast, my immediate predecessor, flagged up as a challenge when the 2012 Act passed Roberta, gave her speech in 2005, eight years into a through this House, but the warnings given at that time Labour Government. She referred to unemployment have, unfortunately, come to fruition, and this is now being halved, the minimum wage, GCSE results improving, causing challenges in the production pathway of addiction and a new state-of-the-art further education college workers. The real challenge faced by the sector is that being built, as well as a hospital and secondary schools. the people whom addiction services are trying to care It could have been a different country. for are now falling through the cracks of those fragmented Then I reflected on my life during those periods; services and the quality of service provision is not as these were the experiences that made me the socialist good as it should be. I know the Minister will look at that I am. In 1987, I had just finished a youth training this constructively, but I hope it will be taken away and scheme. I was in insecure work, and shortly afterwards I examined, so that we can see how we can put things in a was made redundant. My dad, too, was thrown on the better place for people experiencing alcohol and drug scrap heap after Swan Hunter’s shipyards closed. dependency, as they are often the people who have the greatest health inequalities. In 1989, my first daughter came into the world, born 10 weeks premature and needing a ventilator before she Several hon. Members rose— could breathe on her own. Unfortunately, this basic piece of equipment was not available at the hospital, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It nor was it available in any of the surrounding hospitals. is a great pleasure to call Mary Kelly Foy to make her This was a direct result of deliberately running down maiden speech. the NHS. Eventually, a ventilator was located 30 miles away and Maria was born three hours later by emergency 5.16 pm C-section. She suffered brain damage and lived her Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab): Thank you, whole life with severe cerebral palsy. Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to make my The policies of Governments greatly affect the lives maiden speech to the House today. To begin with, I of ordinary people. The actions of the Conservatives want to pay tribute to my predecessor,Roberta Blackman- and their former coalition partners have seen the stalling Woods. Roberta served the constituency for 14 years of the increases in life expectancy. This is extraordinary and was a tireless advocate for the people of Durham. and has not happened since 1900. Labour has been Most recently, she was shadow Minister for Housing accused of wanting to take us back to the 1970s; well, and Planning. Roberta was passionate about that work the Conservatives have taken us back to the 19th century. and highly respected for it. I want to say, on a personal level, that she has been a great help to me recently, and I Last week, the Marmot report on health inequalities wish her all the best in the next phase of her life. showed the impact of austerity—something that I have It is an enormous privilege to be the Member of seen first-hand. In my constituency, a child born on the Parliament for the wonderful City of Durham. I want Sherburn Road estate can expect to live 15 years fewer to thank the constituency Labour party members for than a child born in the most affluent parts of the city, their hard work and support in ensuring that I was just a couple of miles away. Even more shockingly, a elected, and the constituents who have placed their trust recent report in the British Medical Journal showed that in me. I must also thank my family who have supported between the most deprived local authorities—including me throughout my life. County Durham—and the rest, inequalities in infant deaths, which decreased sharply under the Labour Government, Durham has an incredible heritage. It is impossible have now started to increase under Conservative austerity. not to be inspired when you see the cathedral on the Just what kind of society is being created? horizon, and it is so central to the life of the city. It is fitting that the cathedral is now surrounded on all sides There are families in the former pit villages of Ushaw by the world-renowned Durham University, which is Moor, Coxhoe, Brandon and others in my constituency providing essential jobs and technology, linking Durham who are trapped in poverty. Children and grandchildren to all parts of the world, and giving our city a real of the miners who built the wealth of this country are vibrancy. now having to use food banks and undergo a cruel Durham has another history that needs to be celebrated: benefits regime. Is it any wonder that the police have its mining heritage. It is a tradition that prides itself on reported that the main issue affecting these communities resilience, forged by the trade union movement. All of is male suicide? that is encapsulated in the Durham miners’ gala, when Improving health in Britain is not just about refurbishing banners from the villages that surround the city are hospitals; it is about having a good education, a secure proudly paraded through the streets, accompanied by and loving home and a regular source of income. Until 921 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 922 we address these social issues, we will not see any The Government are taking action and the sugar tax substantial changes in public health. As Professor Marmot is helping. Sara Hurley, the chief dental officer, along says: with many charities and organisations, has a drive to “What good does it do to treat people and send them back to teach children, even down to day nursery children, how the conditions that made them sick?” to brush their teeth. It is helping but, as the Minister Labour has a strategy—oven-ready, you might say—to mentioned, far and away the best proven method to tackle these injustices and build a fairer, more equal reduce tooth decay among children—and even, to some society. It was laid out in our manifesto. Unfortunately, degree, among adults—is the fluoridation of the water we are not able to deliver it yet, but that will not stop us supply. Fluoride increases the resistance of tooth enamel holding this Government to account or campaigning to decay dramatically. In the United Kingdom, for a better society. My pledge to those who feel the approximately 330,000 people have naturally occurring harsh impact of Tory austerity—those who will feel fluoride in their water supply. Traditionally, another health inequalities hardest—is that I will fight for them, 5.8 million in different parts are supplied with fluoridated because I have not come to this place just to lay out the water. But that covers only 10% of the total population. problems: I and my party will be part of the solution. The cover in the United States is about 74% and rising. The city of Durham is steeped in history, but it is the In Canada, it is 44% and rising, in Australia, it is future we fight for. The motto of the Durham miners 80% and rising, and even little New Zealand has managed may be 150 years old, but it was adopted by people who 70% and rising. also suffered defeats and setbacks but carried on their We do have fluoridation legislation, but it is left to struggle and, over time, won improvements in their local authorities to instigate the process and to compel industry and in the lives of entire communities. The water companies to fluoridate their water supplies. There motto is still very apt, and it is one that I hold close to is no financial advantage for local authorities if they my heart as I start my parliamentary journey: take such action, but the savings that come through to “The past we inherit, the future we build”. the NHS are considerable. 5.23 pm The second problem with the legislation is that few local authority boundaries are coterminous with the Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I congratulate boundaries of the water companies, which means that the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) the direction and implementation get difficult, complex on her maiden speech. It was interesting; funnily enough and sometimes nigh on impossible. To my mind, the I did not agree with a considerable amount of it, simple and sensible answer would be for the application although that is to be expected. to be put into the hands of the Department of Health I am the second working medical professional to and Social Care so that the policy could be applied step speak, following my hon. Friend the Member for Central by step across the country, going for the most deprived Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter). We are both areas first. That is a big ask and it will require a brave from the same party and speak with some knowledge of Government, but from reflecting on the Labour party’s the difficulties that we face. The moment that this sort previous position on fluoridation, I would hope for of debate comes up, health professionals from our own Labour’s support. particular field have a go at us. Whenever I raise the issue of fluoridation, the green I was delighted that the Minister referred to child ink flies. Letters come in and broomsticks whizz around dental health, on which I feel a push from behind every my house as people come up with extraordinary contrary time there is a health debate. When I first came to this points. The latest Department of Health figures show country, I worked in a really deprived area of east that the odds of experiencing dental health decay in London. Trying to treat children there was like trying to fluoridated areas were reduced by 23% in five-year-old fill a bath with the plug out. The statistics for child children in the less deprived areas, and by 52% in those dental health are still grim today: 23.3% of five-year-olds living in the most deprived areas. have tooth decay, rising to 33.7% in deprived areas. The rate drops to 13.6% in less deprived areas, but it is still Water fluoridation reduces hospital admissions for bad. Tooth decay is the single greatest reason for hospital dental extractions for children by 59%, and in deprived admissions for five to nine-year-olds. Last year, 25,702 areas by as much as 68%. We have the opportunity to be children went to hospital because of tooth decay. Worse world leading, to give our children this chance, and to than that, 45,000 children and young people aged up to combat health decay and children going to hospital. 19 went to hospital because of tooth decay. The estimated cost of treating these children in hospital Several hon. Members rose— is about £50 million annually. Virtually all children will require a general anaesthetic. Every anaesthetic, especially Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): for little ones, carries a risk—an unnecessary one. The Order. After the next speaker, I will reduce the time cost is made worse because those cases occupy trained limit to four minutes in an attempt to get everybody in. health professionals and hospital facilities that could be It is a great pleasure to call Taiwo Owatemi to make her used for other NHS services. It makes me very cross maiden speech. because dental caries, as the Minister has said, are virtually entirely preventable. Put simply, the cause is 5.29 pm acid from sugar and dental plaque. Britons eat about 700 grams of sugar a week—an average of 140 teaspoons. Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): Madam That intake is not spread evenly; it is higher in the north Deputy Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity and lower in the south-east. As Members might expect, to make my maiden speech in this important debate teenagers have the highest intake of all age groups, about health inequalities in our country.My constituents consuming, probably, about 50% more. gave me the privilege to serve Coventry North West, 923 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 924
[Taiwo Owatemi] The topic of this debate—health provision—is very close to my heart. Having lost my father when I was and it is an immense honour to be here. I owe my amazing aged just seven, I became passionate about healthcare, team of activists—and, most importantly,my constituents and about supporting the dedicated professionals who —a great deal. sacrifice so much for us for so little thanks. But as a I follow in the footsteps of a much loved member of senior cancer pharmacist, every day I have seen our this House, Geoffrey Robinson, who has been a fixture health service and adult social care system fail under of the city and this Chamber for 43 years—long before I continuous strain, without the resources they need. I was even born. Geoffrey’s unwavering support for our was astounded to find out that the poorest in Coventry local motoring industry was nationally applauded. During can live 18 years less than the richest in Westminster. We his final term, he was instrumental in changing the law in Coventry deserve a better standard of care across the on organ donations, which is something that I will board, and I will be working with my colleagues in continue to champion. I thank him for his service to our Coventry to fight for an urgent care centre so that we constituency, and wish him and his family the very best. can have that better standard—I will always fight for that. Now that we have left the European Union, the Coventry is a proud English city of culture, and my Government can finally put their money where their part of the city boasts incredible diversity. Our vibrant bus is and properly fund the national health service, Irish and Sikh communities helped to grow Coventry’s giving places such as Coventry the funding they need to booming industries after the second world war. Coventry provide good-quality healthcare. was a major site for the UK’s car manufacturing. We hosted the likes of Jaguar Land Rover, Peugeot and the Homelessness is becoming an increasing concern in General Electric Company—for hon. Members whose our community, and Coventry has the largest food bank memories can stretch that far. Indeed, we were a city in the country. Although that reflects the good will of that produced things, but that industrial base was almost the people of Coventry,it also highlights the Government’s wiped out overnight by Thatcher and her Government. failures to help to cover the cost of living, and to invest The city has seen a lot of changes since the closure of properly in local emergency support for vulnerable people these companies, but Coventry has always been an in crisis. Our housing is in crisis, too. At the core of inclusive city—from university lecturers to students; every housing project should be genuinely affordable from public sector workers to manual labourers. Even social housing, and legislation should require proper today, so many have made my part of Coventry their social infrastructure to be built alongside these projects. home. And, yes, we must also protect our green spaces. My constituency is also diverse in the lay of its Social mobility is a passion of mine. I believe that land—from the sprawling green country fields of Bablake education provides a path to success. It astounds me approaching the villages of Keresley and Allesley to the that since 2013, pupils in my constituency have faced an west, to the cityscape further to the east—but at its 8.7% real-terms cut in funding. We are well below heart is its community spirit. Across our six wards, England’s average for educational attainment, and pupils residents are supported by numerous community centres with special educational needs and disabilities are often and voluntary organisations with a common goal: to left behind, with inadequate provision to meet their enrich and empower the community. As the first female needs. For too many young people growing up in my MP for Coventry North West, I hope to follow in the constituency, violence at home or on the streets is a footsteps of Lady Godiva and champion fairness. I am reality, while West Midlands police and community also the first MP of Nigerian heritage—specifically services have faced severe cuts. This, too, can hold Yoruba —to represent a west midlands seat, and that is young people back. How can this Government claim to an honour that I carry with immense pride. be the party of aspiration and opportunity when they Many people would not have guessed this, but I am stunt the growth and true potential of my constituents? actually a twin. As a piece of trivia for hon. and right Coventry deserves the chance to thrive. It is in the hon. Members, I can tell the House that in the Yoruba nation’s interest that Coventry forms a central part of culture, every twin is named Taiwo or Kehinde, with the midlands engine. Our history of technological and Taiwo being the name of the first-born twin. My brother, industrial innovation has created a natural home for mum and uncle are watching from the Gallery this world-class industrialists, researchers and academics— afternoon, and I like to imagine that my dad and older which, as I am sure the Government will agree, makes brother Ayobola are looking down proudly from even Coventry the obvious location for the environmentally higher up, in heaven, right now, too. I thank my family sustainable Gigafactory. The midlands engine cannot for all their unwavering support and encouragement. run without the motor of a place like Coventry, and I My two fellow Coventry Labour MPs and I reflect will make sure that my city is never left behind. the diversity, tenacity and strong values of Coventry. I As the MP for Coventry North West, I will ensure look forward to working with them to advance Coventry’s that every decision I make in this place is relevant to the cause during this Parliament, and to welcome the world lives of the people who put me here. I do not want to be as we celebrate becoming city of culture in 2021. known for extraordinary words in Hansard, but rather I am a churchgoing Christian, and my values—of for the tangible difference my words make. I will be the community, family, inclusion, and never walking by MP who listens to her constituents about their concerns when we see hardship—are grounded in my faith. I and aspirations. I will be the MP who protects our jobs know that those values are shared by the people of and our beautiful green spaces, who stands up for Coventry,as Coventry is the city of peace and reconciliation. good-quality homes and high-quality education, who Those values are also Labour values. Indeed, I believe sticks up for our NHS and protects the most vulnerable, that everyone should have the opportunities they need and who fights for more police on our streets and to live a long, healthy and happy life. opportunities for the next generation. I will spend my 925 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 926 time in this House standing up for my constituents, for wards, such as Bridge ward in Ipswich, where the healthy my patients and for the public services on which we all life expectancy is around five years lower than the national depend. My community in Coventry expects no less, average? and that is how I will serve it. Lee Anderson: I completely agree. 5.36 pm As I was saying, the Budget will see record amounts of investment in places like Ashfield in Eastbourne. Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): It is an honour to That will, in turn, create highly-skilled jobs and better follow the hon. Member for Coventry North West employment opportunities, which will turn the clock (Taiwo Owatemi). back on decades of decline. With this levelling up of It should not matter where one lives in the UK in wealth in places like Ashfield, I am positive that we will terms of leading a healthy lifestyle, but we must accept see a levelling up of health. If we are going to make the that sometimes there is poor health and the possibility argument that poor places have poor health, the solution of poor health. I am pleased to see that this Government is simple: let us make the poorer places better off by are not shying away from the challenge, with record providing better jobs, better education, better training amounts of investment in our NHS, now enshrined in and better opportunities in life, which will only come law—the largest and longest funding settlement in the from a Conservative Government. Already in Ashfield, history of the NHS. But we all need to start having an we have up to £75 million of town centre and future honest conversation with ourselves about closing the high streets funding coming. We are also looking at gap on health inequality, because it is one of the biggest opening up old train lines, to increase connectivity. That challenges we face in this country. We need to start to sort of positive action in Ashfield will increase prosperity admit to ourselves that we must make different lifestyle in health and wealth. choices. We must think about the smoking and drinking My wife is currently in Queen’s Medical Centre in we are all doing and the lack of exercise. Nottingham, after having her third operation in three Loneliness is a big one for me. Loneliness is a killer. years. She has had a double lung transplant, an operation Far too many people in this country face life alone, to remove 2 metres of intestine and a good old bout of whether that be due to their age, their disability, or just sepsis, and yesterday she had her gall bladder removed. their own personal circumstance. In my community, we When I told her that I was going to have this week off to have the brilliant Huthwaite Hub, which is a charity I look after her, she said, “No, you go down there to helped to set up four years ago with two brilliant Parliament and tell them people in that Chamber that ex-schoolteachers, Dai James and Geoff Jago-Lee. The this is a brilliant NHS”—it keeps her alive every single idea was simple: get a big room, fill it full of woodwork day. machines, tools and materials, and then invite people As I said, it is a shame that the Opposition are once who are socially isolated to come along and learn new again playing politics with a very emotive subject. I skills. The community and local business really came want to assure them that in places like Ashfield and together and donated everything we needed, and a lottery other usually solid Labour areas across the midlands grant was the final piece of the jigsaw. The brilliant and north, we now have hard-working Tory MPs in Huthwaite Hub has now seen hundreds of people come place who will not only level up wealth but will also through its doors who otherwise would have been sat at level up health. home depressed and surviving on antidepressants. That facility is better than any tablet and has transformed the 5.41 pm lives of many people in my area. I invite anybody in this Colleen Fletcher (Coventry North East) (Lab): It is a House, and especially the Minister, to come and visit pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ashfield (Lee the brilliant Huthwaite Hub. Anderson), whose area I know extremely well, and the I sometimes get a little bit fed up with the Labour fabulous maiden speeches on the Labour Benches,including party using the subject of health as a political football. from my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North At the last four general elections Labour has put health West (Taiwo Owatemi), who spoke most warmly about at the top of its campaign agenda and has been rejected my city and about her predecessor; I concur with her at the ballot box every single time. Just a few months comments. ago, it suffered its biggest defeat since 1935, which, Since 2010, the Government have chosen to implement roughly translated, means, “The public just do not trust unfair, regressive economic and social policies that have it.” Something very noticeable in areas like Ashfield and widened the gap between rich and poor,holding individuals Eastwood, and in other similar constituencies throughout back and leaving entire communities behind. Those the country that have always been the victims of health policy choices have ensured that the last decade has inequality, is that they have always had a Labour MP been marked by widening health inequalities and and Labour-run councils—that is, until the election last deteriorating health. In Coventry, where poverty and year. As somebody once said, “Things can only get deprivation are entrenched in some communities, the better”. There is a Budget coming shortly, which will see progress made in the years up to 2010 in terms of record amounts of investment in infrastructure all improving people’s life chances, quality of life and life over the country, especially in places like Ashfield and expectancy have been derailed by this Government. Eastwood. Over the last decade, people in our most deprived communities have experienced rising levels of in-work Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): Does my hon. Friend poverty, food insecurity and food bank reliance. They agree that, to strengthen the resilience of local communities have found it more difficult to access good-quality in combating health inequalities, it might be a good housing and secure, well-paid employment, while their idea for the Government to set up a community wealth incomes and living standards have declined significantly. fund to be funnelled into some of the most deprived Public services and welfare spending, which would once 927 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 928
[Colleen Fletcher] “committed to level up outcomes to reduce the health gap between wealthy and deprived areas, and supports the Government’s have alleviated some of those pressures, have been slashed, commitment to delivering long-term improvements for everyone removing a crucial safety net. That has an impact on no matter who they are, where they live or their social circumstances.” not only people’s health but their ability to make positive Dr Whitford: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with healthy choices, which ultimately increases their chances me that part of the problem is the dental contract, of premature mortality and morbidity. whereby dentists are not rewarded for the amount of The evidence shows that there is now a life expectancy work they do and certainly not rewarded for preventive gap of 11 years between men living in the most deprived care? areas of Coventry and men in the least deprived areas, and the gap is 10 years for women. That gap has increased Derek Thomas: I do agree with that. I did not want to by nearly one and a half years over a five-year period. get into party politics, but the Labour party gave the Those living in the most deprived areas not only die 2006 dental contract to dentists, and we have seen the much earlier than those in more affluent areas; they decline in the availability of dental care in Cornwall also live much longer in poor health. Data shows that from that point. I understand that it cannot be reviewed poorer men in the city will experience 17 years fewer in for another couple of years, but I believe there is work good health than their more affluent counterparts, while that can be done before then to respond to the challenge, poorer women can expect 18 fewer years in good health. and that is what I want to raise today. Sadly,that is not altogether surprising when we consider Since I last raised this issue in the House, I have been the fact that some of the most deprived areas in the city asking my constituents about their experience. I have experience higher rates of economic inactivity, fuel heard about disabled people who have to consider poverty and air pollution, while having fewer green accessibility—they cannot get in to the dentist’s and spaces, all of which impact people’s mental and physical therefore cannot get an appointment. Pensioners are health and wellbeing. Moreover, Coventry’s statistics unable to afford private treatment, and have been left on smoking, drinking and obesity show that 33% of stranded without provision for years. Some were getting adults who smoke live in the most deprived 10% of NHS treatment, but then practices stopped offering it, neighbourhoods; hospital admissions for alcohol-related as they are unable to keep up with demand. Pregnant illnesses and deaths are much higher than national women do not get access to NHS dental care for the rates; and overweight and obesity rates for children are entire pregnancy, but are offered it a long time afterwards, higher than average. even though it is free during a pregnancy. People have We all know that tackling health inequalities is not a ended up travelling further and further, and I heard of job that belongs exclusively to the NHS or to public constituents travelling to Bristol and London to get the health. To make a tangible difference, we have to improve dentist care they need, which cannot be good for us as our health and our health services, but we also have to we try to reduce our carbon footprint. As I have said, look at our society as a whole and the conditions that there is also a lack of access for children. determine our health. This is happening in Coventry, In the time I have, let me share some of the comments and we have had some notable successes, despite the that have been made. Mike left the Royal Navy and had poor hand we have been dealt by Government. For a three-year wait for an NHS dentist. Then he got a example, we have seen an increase in the proportion of dentist, but appointments have been constantly cancelled, children with good development by the end of reception so he is not seeing a dentist. He believes that the armed year,and a reduction in the proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds forces covenant should offer dental provision. Fred said not in education, employment or training. We have also that he has been waiting five years to get a dentist in achieved great results through employability support Cornwall, so he is now registered at a London dentist, programmes, such as the Job Shop or Ambition Coventry, even though he lives in my constituency 300 miles away. which work with people to help them secure employment. A gentleman who worked away a lot, but his family However, if we hope to build on these successes, we was in Cornwall, said that he, sadly, did not visit the need the support of Government. I hope the Minister dentist for two years so was “removed” from the dentist’s will commit to funding public health, the NHS, local list. He had cracked his tooth, but was not able to see a authorities and others properly, so that we can tackle dentist, despite his wife and children still being registered the deep and entrenched health inequalities that exist in and able to get an appointment. Another gentleman our communities and reduce the huge life expectancy who had been living in Penzance for eight years had to gap between the richest and the poorest. wait two years to be placed at a dentist’s. He got a dentist, but then found that they kept cancelling, so he 5.45 pm had not seen a dentist in three years. There is story after Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): I am glad to be able to story of this happening. speak in this debate. Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, There is light at the end of the tunnel. A lot of work which I represent, have a real issue with health inequalities, was done last summer by the former MP Sarah Newton and I was glad recently to ask the Prime Minister to and me and other colleagues in Cornwall, and a plan take a look at health inequalities in dental care. That was put in place. NHS England said that it would has been touched on already this afternoon in relation engage with the national NHS England dental workforce to children. As I have said previously in this Chamber, team to look at a more innovative way to attract dental 60% of adults in my constituency and across Cornwall staff to Cornwall and put forward a plan by the end of and 40% of children have not seen a dentist in the past the year—that was last year. It also said: year. It is not so much a lack of funding—the funding “Work is also under way at a national level to identify solutions actually gets returned to NHS England—as a lack of to the dental recruitment and retention pressures in NHS dentist dentists prepared to work in the NHS. I am glad that services, and to understand and address the constraints of current the Government’s amendment states that they are national NHS dentist contracts”, 929 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 930 which has been referred to. I would like the Minister to allowance and live employment and support allowance look at what has happened to the plan Cornwall was at 4,907—all the highest in Bristol. One in 10 people of promised at the end of last year and what is happening working age in Bristol South are not able to work to the review that is going on across the county. because of health and disability reasons, and the joint Weare doing work locally, but it needs the commitment strategic needs assessment also tells us that it is women of Government and others. There is an irony in that we who are bearing the brunt of this. Women in Bristol on train a lot of dentists in Truro but they do not seem to average live in poor health for 22 years, which is higher stay in Cornwall so this also needs the involvement and than the England average. The health burden and the commitment of the Peninsula dental school, as well as mortality and morbidity figures are equally stark, as NHS providers and NHS England, to get a grip of this Professor Marmot has highlighted. and to ensure that children and adults, particularly In 40 years, we have learnt a lot, and if the Government vulnerable adults, are no longer discriminated against are willing to use the learning we could have much and no longer face these health inequalities. better policy, but local government is key. Public health We must come together quickly and creatively to rooted in local authorities and using independent advice ensure that dental care provision is addressed. As we ought to be far more influential in issues around prioritising have heard, if we get it right very early in life then we and resource allocation, overcoming the vested interests save ourselves a whole host of problems later on. that are in the NHS. Early intervention is key. The NHS does maternity 5.50 pm and there is then a big gap until care of the elderly; local Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): In 1980, the Black government has the interaction with children. The NHS report told us that the focuses on individuals; local authorities focus on families “causes of health inequalities are so deep rooted that only a and communities. NHS bodies are not co-terminus with major and wide-ranging programme of public expenditure is local authorities. They have no grounding in community, capable of altering the pattern.” but local authorities do. Resource allocation in the The report was, famously, whisked out on a bank holiday. NHS is driven by payment by results. Local authorities It was massively rejected by the then new Thatcher are much better at aligning resources with local needs. Government as being unrealistic in its expenditure levels— The NHS is not directly accountable to electors, which typically short-sighted and we have borne the cost of would make it better understand communities and social that since. care. Unless the Government support local government, The findings of the report and the consequent discussions everything else is platitudes. about health inequalities, I discussed when I was at university, as quite a young person at that point. My 5.55 pm lecturer, Professor Albert Weale, taught me a lot about Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): Good health inequalities, which served me to want to seek a health and good healthcare are clearly the basis for career in the NHS to make a difference. But the NHS happiness and prosperity for individuals and communities. contributes little if anything to reducing health inequalities, As we have heard, many factors impact on health: some and many would argue that it in fact increases them: it are personal and genetic; some are life circumstances, makes them worse, with better-off patients finding access such as deprivation; and some are about the quantity easier and being better able to navigate the systems—the and quality of health and care provision. But when this sharp elbows. The inverse care law also applies: the best all comes together, we have a perfect storm. That is the services are in the better-off areas. So I am always plight of those who live in rural communities; my hon. passionate about my career in and commitment to the Friend the Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas) alluded NHS, but I have never deified it. to that. Yet the 170-page Marmot report mentions the Progress was made in the last 40 years. In 1997 we, as word “rural”only seven times, of which four are references the new Government, tried to tackle the social determinants to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural of health, with healthy living centres, such as the one in Affairs. So what do we mean by rural? It is interesting. my constituency in Knowle West, the new deal for It is not consistently defined. The Office for National communities, a focus on early years and families, smoking Statistics, DEFRA and the Welsh Assembly all have cessation, teenage pregnancies and sexual health services. different definitions. They are based on sparsity and We made a massive difference, but in 2011 the health deprivation, but they do not really look at the same inequality targets were removed. It is heartbreaking for thing. What is worse, data is analysed at a very high me to see in my constituency the evidence-based work level. The cut-off is 15,000 heads of population. That really that we led in that Government destroyed by this is not granular enough. Government, the shocking waste of human potential Density profiles look at rural towns, villages, hamlets that has resulted, the huge personal and family and and so on. The way they are built up, in blocks of community loss, and the huge financial problem that population of 1,500, again does not really cut it. We that causes the Government in lost income and increased have bizarre situations where High Peak is deemed only benefit payments. 55% rural, despite being right next to a national park, The Treasury should be deeply concerned about the yet Sevenoaks, which I always thought was a big town, Marmot findings. The figures are stark; they continue is 70% rural. It is very odd indeed. So there is a huge to be stark. In report after report that I have read in my mask in the data in terms of what really is deprivation 30-odd years in the NHS and as an MP, we hear much and where the need is. Therefore, the funding that is about the north, but Bristol has neighbourhoods that delivered to rural communities, certainly in areas such are among the most deprived in the country, and the as mine, is based on the wrong assumptions. In calculating 10 most deprived neighbourhoods in Bristol are all in whether my constituents need money, there is a decision: my constituency of Bristol South. Personal independence do they have cars? Yes. That means they are affluent payment claims stand at 5,500, and those for carer’s and do not need the money—wrong. 931 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 932
Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con): Does my hon. interventions, which means that other people will have Friend agree that patient behaviour around rurality is less time, so I urge people to be careful about interventions. different from those in the city? They have to make a decision when they are on their own whether to trouble 6 pm the GP, to go out, to face the weather, to go to the hospital. When they really need to go, they leave it to Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) the last minute. That creates an inequality that is not (LD): I really must praise the two excellent speeches by captured in the data. the hon. Members for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and for Coventry North West (Taiwo Owatemi). I Anne Marie Morris: My hon. Friend is totally right. rather fancy that those two Members will make their There are some very big consequentials relating to the mark in this place in the years to come. geography of our area and to the demographic profile. I want to tell the tale of Mr Billy Sutherland, who We tend to export young people and import older was a 63-year-old commercial traveller living in Wick. people. In consequence, we need more geriatricians. We A good number of years ago, Billy set off from Wick on do not need a lot of specialists; we need doctors who the A9, heading south. It was a winter’s day and the can cope with complex co-morbidities. We do not have weather was not too bad when he left, but as he travelled doctors like that. further south towards the Ord of Caithness—the boundary We need also more funding for primary care. Much between Caithness and Sutherland—it turned very nasty of the funding is skewed towards accident and emergency. indeed. In the end, Billy drove into a snowdrift and Why? Because that is where the measures are. We also could not get out of his car. The snow continued and need to look at how we overcome the infrastructure eventually he was buried, in his car, 15 foot down. barriers. Road and rail, bad; 5G, great. But we do not There was no trace of the car to be seen. have it. We ought to be a priority because that would be Billy was in that car for 80 hours. Eventually, the police a real plus in trying to solve this rural problem. found him by prodding the snow, and it clanged on the Wealso need to train and recruit people who understand roof of the car. When they dug their way down to the rural communities. If we do not train them in rural areas, car, they found that Billy was, astonishingly, alive and they will not want to come and stay. Nurses working in pretty well. He was not much the worse for his ordeal. hospitals and in social care need to be trained in a Billy was a commercial traveller in ladies tights. As it similar way and they need to be interchangeable, otherwise got colder in his car over the 80 hours, he simply we cannot cope with the demand in social care. On unwrapped more pairs of tights and put them on. It is mental health, as I think has already been mentioned, an extraordinary tale. When he returned to Wick, he isolation and loneliness in rural areas mean that we received a hero’s welcome. have a very high level—I think the highest level—of I tell the tale because, until quite recently we enjoyed suicide. We have lots of lone workers and lone livers. a consultant-led maternity service based at the Caithness That is a real challenge. General Hospital in Wick, but NHS Highland, in its The consequence of all that is that in Devon we find infinite wisdom, decided to downgrade the service. As ourselves with some of the worst financial performance hon. Members know, because I have mentioned it before results and some of the worst results in terms of meeting in this place, a great number of pregnant mothers now targets. Why? Because we are being funded for the have to travel 104 miles from Wick to Inverness—a wrong thing in the wrong way. Nobody seems to notice 208-mile return trip—to give birth to their babies. The vast that many in our community do not ever get ambulances. majority of mothers have to do that. You try north Devon and parts of Cornwall—it is just What if it is winter? What if the ambulance gets stuck not going to happen. The effect is that we are now in in a snowdrift? What if the mother’s contractions have special measures. What does that do? Do we get help? started? What if the two emergency helicopters have Actually we get told to spend less. If that is not health been summoned to one road traffic accident in Lochaber inequality, I do not know what is. I hope the Minister and another in Morayshire? I have said it again and will not tell me that people in rural areas live longer. It is again: in my considered opinion, this is a tragedy waiting not great to live longer if you are not in great health and to happen. I make no apologies for raising it yet again the quality of your health really does not cut it. in this place. This situation can change and it has to change. The This debate is about equality of access to decent Government need to accept that one size does not fit health services. I argue that my constituents in Caithness all. If the Government are willing to listen and to change, are losing out extremely badly indeed, and it annoys me it can all happen. intensely. In fairness, this is a matter that is devolved to I invite the Minister to come and listen to the evidence the Scottish Government. I accept that and very much I am gathering while chairing a national inquiry into hope that the Scottish Government take the problem on rural health and care. We are unpicking the issues. We board, because we cannot continue waiting for something are looking at evidence not only from across the United dreadful to happen. When constituents come to me in Kingdom, but from abroad—from New Zealand, Australia Caithness, do I sit on my hands and say, “Well, it’s not a and America—of what good care looks like. We hope matter for Westminster,” or do I stand up and say to provide the Minister with a toolkit for a good result. something here? I make no apologies, because I think Thank you for listening. I owe it to the pregnant mothers.
Several hon. Members rose— 6.3 pm Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con): It is a pleasure am afraid that after the next speaker, I will have to to follow the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland reduce the limit to three minutes. There have been and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone). 933 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 934
The NHS long-term plan will be critical in tackling surgery, maternity services, in-patient paediatrics and health inequalities. I welcome the announcement that child beds. That 62% reduction in beds would leave a the plan will deliver on this issue and address inequalities shell of a hospital more accurately described as a walk-in by working locally, specifically targeting areas of unmet centre. need. Across the catchment of the trust, deprivation varies I am mindful that I live in and represent a constituency greatly. Given today’s debate, does the Minister agree that has a life expectancy above the national average for that health inequalities must be at the heart of the men and women. However, there is an inequality within decision on how to spend those funds? The key point is Guildford between those who live to the north of the that of the 51 most deprived lower-layer super output A3 in the Westborough and Stoke wards, and those who areas in the trust’s catchment, just one is nearest to the live to the south of the A3, who can expect to live chosen site. Meanwhile, 42 out of the 51 are nearest to roughly five years longer than their northern neighbours. St Helier Hospital. Any decision to downgrade St Helier, I pay tribute to the excellent work that has been therefore, would exacerbate existing health inequalities. undertaken by the Guildford health and wellbeing board, Rather than comparing deprivation by proximity to which produced a report in 2017 that runs through to each of the three possible sites, it has been compared by 2022. It was produced in partnership with the clinical CCG area, disguising the 76.5 year life expectancy of commissioning groups, the local authorities and voluntary men in parts of Mitcham compared with the 84.4 year organisations, which are key to the implementation average in Wimbledon Park. The thousands of A&E of important help and support on the ground in our attendances from the deprived areas in Croydon have community. I believe that empowering our community been discounted, but the comparable number from volunteers will be crucial in narrowing health inequalities. prosperous Wimbledon have been included. The reality The first priority outlined in that report was to support that the area of higher deprivation in the trust’s catchment people to take responsibility for their own health and area has, on average, a far higher attendance at A&E wellbeing as much as possible, and that principle must has been dismissed. always be the starting point in tackling inequality of The Prime Minister’s amendment today states that health outcomes.Committing to a prevention first approach the Government are committed to levelling up is vital. If individuals are able, with support, to look at “outcomes to reduce the health gap between wealthy and deprived habits around smoking, alcohol consumption, food choices areas”. and exercise taken, there will be a huge impact on With just one month to go until the end of the St Helier reducing not only physical health problems but mental consultation, the Government have a decision to make. health issues. Will much get yet more, or will the Government insist Local authorities do an excellent job of promoting that vital services are left where they are most needed their parks and recreation facilities and holiday activities and any available funds are used to improve St Helier for children. We expend so much energy on protecting Hospital on its current site? our green spaces, so it is vital that we use them. Voluntary 6.9 pm groups such as SMART Cranleigh are working hard in the social prescribing sphere, helping those who are Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): socially isolated, which we know can have a detrimental There is clear evidence that deprivation has a big impact effect on life expectancy, as my hon. Friend the Member on health and life expectancy. Preventing disease and for Ashfield (Lee Anderson) described so eloquently. encouraging healthy lifestyles are the key drivers in Councillors have just opened a community fridge in reducing poor health and early deaths in all communities, Park Barn in my constituency,which stocks fresh vegetables, but particularly in more deprived areas. So much is key to a healthy diet. known now that was not understood in previous generations There will, however, always be those who need support about the importance of exercise, maintaining a healthy and medical intervention, and the Government’s weight, stopping smoking, and eating fruit and vegetables. commitment to deliver £33.9 billion worth of investment We may know what we need to do to give ourselves the in the NHS will make reducing health inequalities possible. best chance of staying healthy, but there are many I welcome that investment and trust that, with the barriers that prevent us from making those choices. excellent work already undertaken in the Guildford Those barriers are far higher for people living in more constituency on identifying areas of need, we might deprived areas. qualify for targeted support to improve the quality and Low household income is a barrier to good health. If length of life for my constituents who need it most. I am people are struggling to make ends meet, making sure pleased to support the Government’s amendment this that they eat their five a day and exercise three times a evening. week a is not an urgent priority, or perhaps is even affordable. That is why the Government’s commitment 6.6 pm to raising the national living wage is so important. Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): However, we know that there is more to do. The £500 million promised by the Government for A second barrier is infrastructure. For many of my Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust constituents in the rural villages around Penistone and provides the perfect opportunity to begin to address Stocksbridge, it can take a whole day to travel to and health inequalities in my part of south-west London. from a hospital appointment in Sheffield because the Instead, my local NHS has proposed moving services buses are so few and far between. The Government’s away from the most deprived areas to leafy Belmont, commitments to improving bus services are vital to where life expectancy is longest. If that goes ahead, people who rely on public transport for access to healthcare. St Helier Hospital and Epsom Hospital will be downgraded, A further barrier is lack of information. Increasingly, reducing two A&Es to one, with St Helier Hospital health and medical information is going online, so we losing major A&E, acute medicine, critical care, emergency must tackle inequalities in digital skills and access. 935 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 936
[Miriam Cates] at Turnpike Lane and travel west will go through areas where longevity increases by a couple of years for every There is much that the Government and our fantastic mile travelled. There is currently six years’ difference NHS are doing to tackle health inequalities, but there is between living in Turnpike Lane in the east of my also an important role for our families and communities constituency and living in Highgate village in the west. in helping people to get and stay healthy. Community That is not acceptable. groups are vital in giving people hands-on and practical This is the challenge that we face. It is not just about health advice and helping us to move towards healthy the fact that you do not have money in your pocket, but lifestyles. In my constituency, the Oughtibridge Strideout about the fact that the person sitting next to you may be running club has helped many of my friends from the doing very well, perhaps in owner-occupied housing couch to 5k—although I am afraid I am still at the and with a healthy pension, while you are still struggling couch end of that. We also have Stocksbridge leisure to work into your 70s and also living with a chronic centre, which is run by and for the community and is health condition. That is what inequality means, and I pioneering social prescribing. wonder sadly whether the covid-19 crisis will show just As human beings, we exist not in isolation but in how unequal the virus will be in the victims whom it will relationship to those around us. Relationships with our tragically take. I fear that it will tend to be the people family, friends and communities are so important, and who are living with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease they are often our first port of call when we have health and other chronic illnesses who lose their lives, because concerns. Breastfeeding support is a brilliant example. of our health inequalities and because our services do There is clear evidence that being breastfed improves a not match the aspirations of Members on both sides of person’s chances of being healthy, but—I say this from the House. lengthy experience—breastfeeding can be tough, and Let me once more commend the work of the Haringey new mums need support from friends, family and fairness commission, which is hot off the press and community to keep going. I was lucky enough to have which everyone can read online. support from fantastic community groups when I had my first child, and I could not have kept going without 6.14 pm that. Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con): When considering Levelling up our left-behind areas is not just about how best to improve the nation’s health, including where better buses and trains; it is about investing in communities. inequalities exist, I have a natural tendency to want to We need to make every effort to reduce health inequalities go back to the very beginning and consider whether the by funding our NHS, raising incomes, improving experience of children can lead us to the answers. To infrastructure and helping people gain access to information, that end, I want to raise the—literally—growing problem but we must also recognise the importance of family, of childhood obesity. If we look at the overall statistics, friends and community to our health, and I therefore we see that a third of children aged two to 15 are welcome our manifesto commitments to a programme overweight or obese, and that 79% of children who are of strengthening families and championing family hubs. obese in their early teens will remain obese as adults. That puts them at risk of conditions including diabetes, 6.12 pm asthma, cardiovascular disease, joint pain and cancer, but it also damages their life chances and can lead to Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): I psychological issues that can bear down on and impact commend the speech of the hon. Member for Penistone their quality of life. and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates), and also the two The causes are, as ever, multiple and complex: social, excellent maiden speeches from my hon. Friends the environmental, biological, personal and economic. Looking Members for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and for at the financial position of people, it is true to say that it Coventry North West (Taiwo Owatemi). is cheaper to fill a hungry child with doughnuts than I want to use this very short speech to promote the with apples. Of course it is possible to eat healthily for excellent work of the Haringey fairness commission. A less, but even here we see inequality. Research from number of local authorities have established fairness University College London and Loughborough University commissions to look into what can be done in their in 2018 found that although childhood obesity had neighbourhoods. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol increased in recent decades, its rise had not affected South (Karin Smyth), who is not currently in the Chamber, children equally. The report concluded that spoke very well about the need for properly funded “the powerful influence of the obesogenic environment”— local authorities to have the key to addressing the need that is, growing up in an environment that encourages for high-quality early intervention, health and education or at least facilitates unhealthy eating— services, and, of course, income. I think that if local “has disproportionately affected socioeconomically disadvantaged authorities had a greater duty to stamp out the scourge children”. of low pay, we would see a greater improvement in health. For example, the obesity figures for four to five-year-olds We know that 25% of people in Haringey are still not are at their highest among children from the most receiving the London living wage. If a quarter of our deprived areas, where 13.3% are obese, compared with workers received that improved hourly rate, it would 5.9% in more affluent areas.Although this is a long-running have a huge impact on their health. disparity, it is no less concerning, as these figures show. We know from the work of the Equality Trust and a The seeds of a lifelong battle with obesity are sown at number of professors, including Professor Marmot from an early age, with one in five children already obese the Institute of Health Equity, that the problem is not or overweight before they have even started school. just about people not having money in their pockets, Understanding the drivers and the most effective but about the income gap. That applies to many of our interventions is clearly going to be crucial to achieving London constituencies. Those who get on to the 41 bus the change that is needed. 937 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 938
That is why the measures that the Government have among our children, requires significant investment. taken through the national childhood obesity plan, the The Government need to step up, never mind level up, Green Paper “Advancing our health: prevention in the and stop the crisis in NHS dentistry. 2020s” and the NHS long-term plan are important parts of the solution. We know that the soft drinks 6.20 pm industry levy has been effective in reducing sugar content, Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con): It is a pleasure to with about 37.5 billion kilocalories removed from the follow the hon. Member for Bradford South (Judith soft drinks industry every year. We have the school food Cummins). I want to speak about autism and what the plan, and health education is now compulsory in our Government might do to improve outcomes and reduce schools. We also have the primary PE and sport premium health inequalities for people with autism in Peterborough and the Healthy Start scheme, as well as the healthy and across the UK. child programme that we have heard about. All these My interest in the subject stems from speaking directly measures are helping to tackle childhood obesity, but with constituents, on the doorstep, who tell me about we know that there is a lot more to do if we are to meet their experiences. I have joined the all-party parliamentary our target of halving childhood obesity by 2030. group on autism and support the National Autistic Society’s efforts to raise awareness of the condition. 6.17 pm Debates in Peterborough City Council chamber might Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab): It is a pleasure not regularly excite hon. Members, but I hope that the to follow the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Edward House will indulge me just this once, because I am Timpson). I would like to focus on one particular area excited that councillors in Peterborough will tonight of health inequality: the lack of access to NHS dentistry discuss a motion on autism tabled by the excellent and the damaging effect that this is having on people’s Conservative councillor for Bretton, Chris Burbage. health. I fundamentally believe that we cannot continue The motion will commit the council to engage with to treat dentistry as the Cinderella service of the NHS. health and social care organisations, education, the It is underfunded, undervalued and in need of reform. police, charities, and people with autism and their families There is a crisis in access to NHS dentists, and significant and carers, as well as with me and my hon. Friend the inequality in the availability of access. This is having an Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara), in adverse effect on the health and wellbeing of our children, drafting an autism strategy. in particular, with tooth decay remaining the biggest I am proud of Peterborough and proud of the charities cause of admission to hospital for five to nine-year-olds. Autism Peterborough and the Enabling Independence Unfortunately, there is a regional and socioeconomic Service, both of which I shall soon meet. I also want to divide in both the availability of NHS dentistry and in mention my constituent, Nazreen Bibi, who cemented good dental health outcomes. Nearly 50% of children in my interest in this area. She has done wonderful work the worst performing local authority area have tooth and, despite standing to be a Labour party councillor in decay; in the best performing area the figure is just 4%. Peterborough in 2018, knows how we can work together In Bradford, the figure is far too high at 40%. We also for better outcomes for patients. see wide regional inequalities of access. In Bradford, It is worth briefly reminding hon. Members what 88% of people who tried to do so got an NHS dental autism is. It is a lifelong development disability that appointment, compared with 95% nationally. affects how people perceive the world and interact with Locally, I have had some success in campaigning for others. Not everyone’s brain works the same way.Autistic more investment in local NHS dental services. An access people see, hear and feel the world differently from pilot scheme that ran in 2017 provided an extra 4,200 other people. They are autistic for life; autism is not an appointments. The scheme significantly cut waiting times illness or a disease, and it cannot be cured. Often, for dental care in Bradford. More than half of those people feel that being autistic is a fundamental aspect of extra patients had not seen a dentist for more than two their identity. Autism is much more common than most years. The “Stop the Rot” campaign with the Bradford people think, with around 700,000 people in the UK Telegraph & Argus resulted in over £600,000 of clawback having this condition. funding being reinvested in Bradford over three years. I want to focus my remaining remarks on getting an May I thank two former Ministers, the hon. Member accurate diagnosis of autism, because that helps people, for Winchester (Steve Brine) and Alistair Burt, for their and their families, partners, employers, colleagues, teachers help with this? and friends, to understand why they might experience Will the current Minister take the hint and please certain difficulties. It also helps them to get access to confirm that, given the proven need, this reinvestment support services. will continue into Bradford South? However, it is clear The Autism Act 2009 is over 10 years old. We have that this is not the long-term fundamental solution that made considerable progress since that legislation was is needed. First, we need to see reform of the dental passed, but the APPG on autism has listed a series of contract, which is simply not fit for purpose. Secondly, recommendations on how the Government might do the Government must get a grip on dental recruitment, more in this area. I am confident that this Government which threatens to make access even harder. Thirdly, will rise to the challenge on autism, and I ask Ministers the Government must roll out the starting well programme to consider closely the APPG report and act on the across the country. Currently, it is limited to a handful recommendations within it. of wards across 13 local authorities. Finally, the Government must commit to fully funding 6.24 pm NHS dentistry. It is operating on a budget that has Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Health remained essentially static since 2010. The scale of inequalities remain acute in Ealing, with men and women oral health inequalities in this country, in particular in the most deprived areas living half a decade less than 939 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 940
[Mr Virendra Sharma] provide the skilled jobs that my constituents need and to upskill all my constituents, no matter what their those in the richest part of the borough. We have also background. seen insidious rises in infant mortality, tuberculosis and Marmot’s main policy objectives relate to public health winter deaths. For that to happen in one of the richest and prevention, and I ask the Under-Secretary of State countries in the world, where we have come to expect for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member incremental improvements in health, is a tragedy and for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries), to consider initiating the true legacy of 10 years of Tory misrule. a pilot in Bury for an integrated public health hub that Ethnic minorities suffer from serious health inequalities, would put all public health services together in one particularly with regard to organ donation. Last month place. The hub would address substance abuse, as well I met a brave young boy from my constituency called as dietary and all wellbeing matters. More specifically, it Rohan and his wonderful mother, Sonia. Rohan is would encourage a healthy and active lifestyle. 12 years old and has been on the kidney transplant In Bury, we need to encourage people to become waiting list since 2018. The lack of awareness and involved in sport and activity. Sites such as Gigg Lane, insufficient promotion of organ donation in black, Asian the home of Bury football club, are perfect facilities to and minority ethnic communities holds back young inspire youngsters who are not involved in an active people such as Rohan from reaching their full potential. lifestyle to change their ways, and to become involved in I can only encourage people to come forward and opt their community and in a public health world to which into the system. they have not previously been introduced. Public health The Government must also follow through on their services should not be in an office block; they should be overdue tobacco control plan White Paper to help to in open, attractive places that encourage young people move us towards a smoke-free Britain. We need specific to become involved. recommendationsonoraltobacco,whichdisproportionately Those proposals would have impact on my constituents, affects BAME communities. benefiting their health outcomes and life chances. The Government must also reverse the harsh cuts they have made to public health spending, which have made it far harder for local councils to provide evidence-led 6.29 pm advice, particularly on mental health, sexual health, Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to smoking cessation and drug and alcohol services. Public follow the hon. Member for Bury North (James Daly) health spending is a small percentage of overall health and to hear his suggestions on how to reduce health spending, but it can have a drastic impact on the lives of inequalities. the most vulnerable. Professor Marmot’s recent review on health inequalities The Government must address overall levels of since 2010 has highlighted how the Government’s decade deprivation and urgently increase the minimum wage to of austerity has taken its toll on aspects of people’s a real living wage. I urge them to step up to their lives. In particular, the report highlights: rising child responsibilities and to do what they have promised: level poverty; the closure of children’s centres; declines in up this country. education funding; zero-hours contracts; increasing 6.26 pm insecurity in work; the housing crisis; a rise in homelessness; an increase in the number of beggars on the street; people James Daly (Bury North) (Con): At the start of the not having enough money to lead a healthy lifestyle; debate, the Under-Secretary of State for Health and and more and more people turning to food banks. If Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury those outcomes are not bad enough, things are even St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), asked for suggestions on worse for our minority ethnic population, and that area how we can level up the health inequalities that affect is my focus in this speech. all our constituencies. Representing the people of Ramsbottom, Tottington and Bury, I think the following Ethnicity has not been a consistent focus of health policy proposals would go some way towards addressing inequalities policy; very few policies have been targeted the Marmot policy objectives. at minority groups. Two factors affecting the action—or the lack of it—on ethnic health inequalities are the First, in Bury, we need to strengthen our mainstream availability of data on ethnicity and the legal obligations provision for primary-age children with autistic spectrum on racial equality. For example, data on ethnicity is not conditions and for children with social, emotional and collected when a death is registered, so it is not possible mental health needs. We need to create two bases with to calculate life expectancy estimates. Having that data outreach capacity to sustain pupils in their school with on ethnic groups in our health statistics would be an extra support, giving every child the best start in life. important aid to researchers, who would then be able to We need to fund a learning disability hub, which investigate differences in health. Education for our health would change how people with disabilities access support professionals is also most important if we want to across Bury. This would involve the development of an address health inequalities and to enable those professionals accessible hub to provide information, advice, care and to feel that practical steps can be taken to help to reduce support to individuals whose lives are affected by disability, the inequalities. For example, sickle cell disorder affects enabling all children and young people to maximise some of my diverse community in Lewisham East, but their capabilities and to have control of their life. not enough research has been done on it, and not We need to create fair employment and good work enough time has been spent on evaluating the preventive for all. Bury College has received millions of pounds of measures and how to reduce people’s risk of having a Government investment for a proposed health and life sickle cell crisis. Clearly much more needs to be done to sciences hub. We are now asking for further investment understand the disorder and how it disproportionately to create a digital and creative industry skills hub to affects a section of our diverse population in the UK. 941 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 942
Many health professionals would agree that there is a In the Metropolitan Borough of Gateshead, which desperate requirement to increase training on sickle cell includes my constituency, the gap in life expectancy disorder, as well as diversity training in the General between the most deprived and least deprived areas has Medical Council, the General Pharmaceutical Council increased: in 2010-12 it was 8.6 years for men, but for and the Nursing & Midwifery Council, in order to 2016-18 it was 12 years; for women, the gap has increased address these needs. The Marmot review makes one from 8.8 years to 11.2 years. The gap in healthy life thing clear: the effects of austerity are reducing quality expectancy is even more stark: between 2009-11 and of life and, in some cases, they are taking life. 2016-18, the gap in healthy life expectancy for women in Gateshead increased from 4.6 years to 6.2 years. Healthy 6.32 pm life expectancy is a significant issue because it creates Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): It is great to see two more pressure as people need support from the NHS Ministers on the Front Bench. For me, health inequalities and social care. are closely linked to the health of my local NHS trust, The Minister said earlier that local authorities need so I make no apologies for talking about Isle of Wight to and can take control of this issue; Gateshead has healthcare in relation to health inequalities. I do so been doing so, as recognised by Michael Marmot. The within the framework of the unavoidably small hospitals North East Child Poverty Commission estimates that programme, which is potentially a very interesting move 209,272 children throughout the north-east are growing by this Government. I discussed it with the Minister for up in poverty.That is 6,224 children just in my constituency Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood of Blaydon, or nine children in a class of 30, living in (Edward Argar) and the Secretary of State last week. poverty. There is growing evidence that growing up in The background is as follows: 12 national hospitals poverty has a devastating effect on children’s physical qualify as unavoidably small, and the economics of and mental wellbeing. those hospitals has an impact on healthcare, especially This morning, I attended the launch of the Royal in a place such as the Isle of Wight, which has a College of Paediatrics and Child Health report on the 100% remoteness factor, because we are separated by state of child health in 2020. During the speeches, I was the sea. The diseconomies of scale over a wide range of struck by the president of the college saying that it was health issues affect the ability to deliver healthcare to too late for him to change his life expectancy—unless he the same standard as on the mainland. That is part of takes up smoking and drinking, which he is not going to the wider issue I am looking at when seeking an Isle do—so he is focusing on the need to act for children. I of Wight deal. We reckon that the additional costs of was also struck by one of the things that the college providing healthcare on the Island to the same standard recommended, which was for the Government to restore as on the mainland is about £12 million. I will not go the money from the £1 billion real-terms cut to the public further into the details, because of a shortage of time, health grant for local authorities. It also recommended but I have talked to the Secretary of State and the Minister that funding should increase at the same rate as that for for Health about that. the NHS and be allocated based on population health What do I intend to do about this? I am going to try need. to secure debates on the USH programme, in the hope I would have liked to talk about smoking and alcohol, that the 20 or so Members concerned, mostly Conservatives but time does not permit. but with one Opposition Member, will join in supporting me, so that we can ensure that Ministers understand the 6.38 pm additional pressures on these hospitals. Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): Health inequality is I will also make the case to Sir Simon Stevens for explicitly linked to the wider inequality caused by 10 years looking at increased revenue for unavoidably small hospitals, of austerity policies. Labour’s record shows that health especially on the Island, which has a 100% remoteness inequality and child poverty—they are very much linked— factor. We will, though, continue to drive efficiency on are not inevitable and that Governments can address the Island. Our chief executive Maggie Oldham and the them effectively, but this Government have had a decade leadership team are looking at doing that by linking up to do that and have simply not done enough. Huge with Portsmouth district general hospital and with Solent health inequalities exist in my constituency. I shall NHS mental health trust, and by doing other good things concentrate on healthy food, housing and air pollution. so that we use public money as efficiently as possible. Roehampton includes areas that are among the 20% I would very much like recognition from the Government most deprived areas in England, and the 10% most that there is an additional cost for unavoidably small deprived with respect to income and housing. Health hospitals because of diseconomies of scale. That should levels in Roehampton are consistently lower than those translate into something in terms of revenue. In addition, in the wider London Borough of Wandsworth. Average when it comes to helping Islanders to get patient treatment life expectancy is 7.4 years less for men and 5.5 years on the mainland, there are additional costs for patient less for women in Roehampton than in Thamesfield travel. I will leave it there. ward at the other end of my constituency. Men in the Alton and Putney Vale area of Roehampton spend up 6.35 pm to 6.6 years fewer in good health than the Wandsworth Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): Madam Deputy Speaker: average and women up to 4.9 years fewer. It is a scandal. “Good health is an indication that a society is thriving and that In one area of Roehampton, people feel like they are economic and social and cultural features of a society are working living in a food desert. These are urban areas where it is in the best interests of the population”— difficult to buy affordable, good-quality fresh food. not my words, but those of Michael Marmot last week. That is a poor phenomenon across the country. It was hard to hear his conclusions on health equity Cuts to transport and just having one small supermarket 10 years on from his 2010 report, especially for those of in an area are really big issues. That is a matter of town us in the north-east, where we have seen the biggest declines. planning which could be addressed by the future high 943 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 944
[Fleur Anderson] our borough live in poverty; and why is it that only two thirds of people across our borough live in good health? streets fund. Furthermore, more funding for councils We have to be honest about why this situation has could be used to help establish fresh food shops.Community developed and why many of the communities that I organisations could also be used. represent remain stuck in this vicious cycle. It is because Linked to this is the high level of overcrowding in the Government have wilfully neglected the changing Roehampton. The biggest reason for people coming to needs of communities such as mine over the past 10 years. my surgeries since I was elected is mould. Children The failure to give us the funding and resources that growing up in homes with damp and mould are prone people in Enfield need and deserve have damaged people’s to asthma, and are often not able to go to school. Poor life chances and pushed our public health progress housing also means less physical activity, loss of backwards. It is time now for a step change. It is time sleep and missing school, and those problems are that the Tories invested in the health of people across exacerbated in temporary accommodation where, often, Enfield North. there is no fridge, no cooker and no space to prepare food. I call for a public health review of our temporary 6.44 pm accommodation. Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland Finally, air quality is not just a public health issue, West) (Lab): This has been an excellent debate and one but a social justice issue. Poorer families are less likely that I hope has been enlightening to the Government to have a car, but also more likely to live on the most Benches especially. I thank all hon. Members who have polluted streets. To tackle this, we need a legally binding contributed; I counted 24 Back Benchers in total. In commitment to meet the World Health Organisation particular, I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members guideline levels for fine particulate matter; a strengthened for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and for Coventry Office for Environmental Protection; and targets and North West (Taiwo Owatemi), who made exceptional funding for councils to have a modal shift towards maiden speeches and will be powerful advocates for cycling and walking. These are public health issues. their constituents. Residents of Putney, Roehampton and Southfields face I highlight the other excellent speeches by my hon. health inequalities, and the Government need to start Friends the Members for Coventry North East (Colleen listening and take action. Fletcher), for Bristol South (Karin Smyth), for Mitcham 6.41 pm and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), for Hornsey and Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab): I am proud to Wood Green (Catherine West), for Bradford South represent Enfield North, which is a key part of one of (Judith Cummins), for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma), the fastest growing London boroughs and, like so many for Lewisham East (Janet Daby), for Blaydon (Liz Twist), communities across London and the UK, it is a borough for Putney (Fleur Anderson) and for Enfield North (Feryal that is changing rapidly.The core funding Enfield Council Clark), although time will not allow me to comment on receives from the Tory Government has been cut by an them in detail. average of £800 per household since 2010, with hard- As we have heard, “The Marmot Review 10 Years working Labour councillors having to find an extra On” report confirmed what many Labour Members £30 million this coming year. The impact that these have been warning—that life expectancy is declining swingeing, relentless cuts have had on our frontline and inequalities are widening. The stalling of life expectancy services cannot be understated. is not a trend that we see worldwide. It does not have to As I have said previously, I am pleased with the work be this way. The Nordic countries, Japan and Hong that Enfield Council is doing to tackle health inequalities, Kong all have life expectancies that are greater than but every single one of us across this House knows that ours and which continue to increase. But here in the the relentless attacks on local government have meant UK, for the first time in more than 100 years, life that its efforts provide only vital sticking plasters to the expectancy is stalling and even declining for the poorest gross inequality that this Government have caused. 10% of women. As the Marmot report says, People working in local government actually want to “if health has stopped improving it is a sign that society has work with the Government to tackle the problems that stopped improving.” we are talking about today. I pay tribute to the work of There is no doubt that there is a link between austerity the Local Government Association in consistently raising and stalling life expectancies. It is disgraceful that rates the challenges that our councillors are facing. of premature deaths in poorer areas are twice as high as The LGA rightly underlined that, when it comes to those in the more affluent areas. The Secretary of State public health issues, almost every single function of has always said that prevention is one of his top three local government has an impact on outcomes for local priorities, yet we have seen no evidence of that. The cuts people. I wish to pay tribute to the work of Enfield to public health budgets have not been reversed. There Poverty and Inequality Commission for shining a light has been no investment in children’s services, addiction on this issue earlier this year, as part of its “All things services or social care, and no attempt has been made being equal”report. The report made for difficult reading: by successive Conservative Governments over the past 20,000 people living with unmet health needs; more 10 years to improve the standard of living for people than 15,000 people not registered with a local GP; and living in cold and damp houses, working in unstable women living for up to 20 years in poor health. Why are jobs or on zero-hours contracts, which have increased we seeing damaging trends such as this? It is because to more than 1 million people under their tenure. injustice breeds inequality. I ask the Minister today: The vulnerability of those on zero-hours contracts— why is it that residents in Enfield have less than half the sometimes with no rights to statutory sick pay—has come public health funding per head compared with other home to roost now that we are looking at a pandemic London boroughs; why is it that 30% of children across requiring two weeks of self-isolation, and possibly long 945 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 946 periods off sick if the virus is contracted and takes not “in the near future”—publish the public health hold. The same applies to the self-employed and those grant allocation for 2020-21, so that local authorities working in the gig economy. Although we welcome can begin budgeting for the financial year ahead, which what the Prime Minister announced earlier today about starts next month? scrapping the three-day wait for statutory sick pay, The Marmot review should act as a huge warning trying to live on £94.25 a week, which is about a quarter sign for the Government. Health inequalities are widening of the national minimum wage, will only exacerbate the and life expectancy is stalling and declining. Given existing inequalities, and could vastly compromise the everything that we have heard this afternoon, what nation’s attempts to contain the coronavirus if people urgent steps will the Government take to address health choose to work, instead of self-isolating, due to the inequalities before they increase further? need to pay their bills and eat. The Government’s inaction to improve these inequalities in our society will 6.52 pm not only continue to hurt the poorest and most vulnerable; in turn, the rest of society will also suffer. It is for those The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health very reasons that Opposition Members believe in caring and Social Care (Ms Nadine Dorries): I thank all Members proactively for the most vulnerable. It really does benefit who have taken the time to attend this debate and to us all to do so. speak about their experiences and their concerns. Not doing something to make life fairer and more As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in equal has real measurable affects. According to the January: Royal College of Physicians, children growing up in “Every single person deserves to lead a long and healthy life, damp, mouldy homes are between one and a half and no matter who they are, where they live or their social circumstances.” three times more likely to experience symptoms of As someone who spent the first 20 years of my life in a asthma and other respiratory diseases than children council house in the 10th most deprived area in the living in dry homes. A study by the Nuffield Trust found country, I know more than most how important that is, that young people in the UK are more likely to die of and no one can concur with his sentiments more than I. asthma than in any one of the other 13 European Before Professor Marmot published his report, this countries studied. That is totally disgraceful, and the Government had already made clear our bold commitment Government really must do something urgently to reverse to level up left-behind areas. This Government have this trend. been clear that they will address the needs of the Holly Worboys died tragically at the age of 19 from communities that are being left behind, where too many an asthma attack in January 2016. She was using her people lose their independence through ill-health and inhaler sparingly to save on prescription costs.A prescription disability. Differences in health outcomes are not new. currently costs £9—a price that is just too high for many Health inequalities have existed under successive people who are living on squeezed or inadequate incomes. Governments.In fact, it is worth mentioning that Marmot’s People should not be priced out of health. That is why report in 2010 was equally damning of the record of the we on the Labour Benches are committed to rolling out previous Administration. The hon. Member for Leicester free prescriptions for everyone.Has the Minister considered South (Jonathan Ashworth) is shaking his head, but I this as a means to prevent illnesses worsening and early am afraid it was. These reports are important, inasmuch deaths? as they push and inform Government policy going forward. The Marmot review confirms what we already knew: the poorer the area, the worse the health. That means It is also worth mentioning, to add balance to the that health inequalities also exist within poorer parts of debate, that the ONS has published new life expectancy otherwise wealthy areas, which we see across London data, and the good news is that the latest figures show a often, but it also means that health inequalities exist bump up, as noted by Professor Marmot yesterday. We between the north on the whole and the south— must, of course, take care with such information—those because, on the whole, the north is less affluent than the are provisional quarterly statistics and are subject to south. Sadly, it was ever thus and it is what drove me change—but it is good news that life expectancy figures into politics in the first place, growing up in the north-east are going up. under Thatcher. The north is often a forgotten land, not Differences in health outcomes are not new. Our least the north-east, where the most deprived 10% of manifesto pledged to increase years lived in good health neighbourhoods have seen the largest decreases in and tackle specific problems—for example, by eradicating life expectancy. This is in comparison with the largest rough sleeping by the end of this Parliament. Those increases in life expectancy in the least deprived 10% of commitments came on top of an unprecedented level of neighbourhoods in London. investment in our NHS, with an unprecedented £2.3 billion When it comes to healthy life expectancy, as we heard in my area of mental health. There has also been earlier, boys born in Blackpool in 2016-18 can expect to substantial funding for our hospitals, primary care and live 53.3 years in good health, compared with 71.9 years workforce. Reducing inequalities requires action in the for those born in Richmond upon Thames, where healthy NHS and across Government, and prevention is a priority life expectancy is the highest. That is a gap of 18.6 years for this Government to support long, independent lives and that gap has widened by 4.7 years since 2009-11, lived in good health. when it was 13.9 years. Due to the time constraints, I will move on to answer This is a deep injustice that the Government must some of the points raised by Members in no fewer than address as a matter of urgency. So what are they going 24 speeches. I would like to commend and congratulate to do about it? The public health grant has been cut by the Members who made their maiden speeches today. £700 million since 2015, with the most deprived areas They were accomplished and excellent. I am sure that faring worst. Will the Government reverse the cuts to they will be a huge addition to the House, particularly public health budgets? Will they today—not “soon”, in the area of health. 947 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 948
[Ms Nadine Dorries] Question agreed to. Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), I would like to address the points made by my hon. That the original words stand part of the Question. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter). We will develop and publish a The House divided: Ayes 181, Noes 319. new UK-wide cross-Government addiction strategy,which Division No. 38] [6.59 pm I am sure will be good news to him. The strategy will set clear goals to reduce drug deaths and dependency on AYES drugs and will include problem gambling for the first Abbott, rh Ms Diane Foxcroft, Vicky time. Abrahams, Debbie Foy, Mary Kelly My hon. Friends the Members for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Ali, Rushanara Furniss, Gill Beresford) and for St Ives (Derek Thomas) and the hon. Ali, Tahir Gill, Preet Kaur Member for Bradford South (Judith Cummins) raised Amesbury, Mike Glindon, Mary dentistry as an example of inequality. We are committed Anderson, Fleur Green, Kate to increasing access to NHS dentistry. Some 21.8 million Antoniazzi, Tonia Greenwood, Lilian Ashworth, Jonathan Greenwood, Margaret adults were seen by dentists in the 24-month period Barker, Paula Griffith, Nia ending on 31 December last year, and 7 million children Beckett, rh Margaret Gwynne, Andrew were seen by dentists in the 12-month period ending in Begum, Apsana Haigh, Louise June of the same year. The issue of water fluoridation is Benn, rh Hilary Hamilton, Fabian mentioned frequently by dentists, and the Government Betts, Mr Clive Harman, rh Ms Harriet will be looking into that. Blake, Olivia Harris, Carolyn My hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Lee Anderson) Blomfield, Paul Hayes, Helen mentioned loneliness and the importance of socialisation Brabin, Tracy Healey, rh John and social prescribing, which can have a significant Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hill, Mike Brennan, Kevin Hobhouse, Wera impact on physical and mental health. Our loneliness Brown, Ms Lyn Hodgson, Mrs Sharon strategy acknowledges that tackling loneliness is a complex Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hollern, Kate and long-term challenge, requiring action on many Bryant, Chris Howarth, rh Sir George fronts. Buck, Ms Karen Huq, Dr Rupa My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot Cadbury, Ruth Jardine, Christine (Anne Marie Morris) raised the issue of inequalities in Campbell, rh Sir Alan Jarvis, Dan rural villages and towns. She made her point clearly, Carden, Dan Johnson, Dame Diana and I am sure that it has been heard. My hon. Friend Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, Kim the Member for Guildford (Angela Richardson) spoke Chamberlain, Wendy Jones, Darren Champion, Sarah Jones, rh Mr Kevan about prevention, and I thank her for her recognition of Charalambous, Bambos Jones, Ruth the Government’s investment in the NHS and our Clark, Feryal Jones, Sarah commitment to deliver on the long-term plan. Cooper, Daisy Keeley, Barbara The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain Cooper, Rosie Kendall, Liz McDonagh) spoke about St Helier Hospital. I am not Cooper, rh Yvette Khan, Afzal qualified to give her a response, but her points will have Corbyn, rh Jeremy Kinnock, Stephen been noted, and I will ensure that they go back to the Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Kyle, Peter Department. We will get a response to her, and I thank cast by Peter Kyle) Lake, Ben her for her comments. Cruddas, Jon Lammy, rh Mr David Cryer, John Lavery, Ian I can tell my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone Cummins, Judith Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) that the NHS is setting Cunningham, Alex Lewis, Clive up a national academy for social prescribing to champion Daby, Janet Lucas, Caroline social prescribing, which I am sure many Members will David, Wayne Madders, Justin be pleased to know. Social prescribing can make a huge Davies, Geraint Mahmood, Shabana difference for people who are suffering from loneliness Davies-Jones, Alex Maskell, Rachael or other issues,so that they come together in the community. Debbonaire, Thangam Matheson, Christian Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh McCabe, Steve I would like to conclude by thanking Members on Dodds, Anneliese McCarthy, Kerry both sides of the House. I would also like to thank Doughty, Stephen McDonagh, Siobhain Professor Sir Michael Marmot for his report on health Dowd, Peter McDonald, Andy inequalities. His dedicated work has shone a light on Dromey, Jack McDonnell, rh John this important issue, not just now but back in 2010. This Duffield, Rosie McFadden, rh Mr Pat debate has demonstrated that this Government are facing Eagle, Ms Angela McGinn, Conor up to the challenges and taking bold action to meet Eagle, Maria McGovern, Alison those challenges. We have invested over £16 million in Edwards, Jonathan McKinnell, Catherine public health over a five-year period, in addition to Efford, Clive McMahon, Jim NHS spending on our world-leading NHS. We are Elliott, Julie Mearns, Ian making sure that— Elmore, Chris Mishra, Navendu Eshalomi, Florence Moran, Layla Esterson, Bill Morden, Jessica Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): Evans, Chris Morgan, Mr Stephen claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Farry, Stephen Morris, Grahame Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Fletcher, Colleen Murray, Ian put. Fovargue, Yvonne Murray, James 949 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 950
Nichols, Charlotte Smyth, Karin Daly, James Heaton-Harris, Chris Norris, Alex Sobel, Alex Davies, Gareth Henderson, Gordon Onwurah, Chi Spellar, rh John Davies, Dr James Henry, Darren Osamor, Kate Stevens, Jo Davies, Mims Higginbotham, Antony Osborne, Kate Streeting, Wes Davies, Philip Hinds, rh Damian Owatemi, Taiwo Stringer, Graham Davis, rh Mr David Holden, Mr Richard Owen, Sarah (Proxy vote cast Sultana, Zarah Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin by Kate Osamor) Tami, rh Mark Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Peacock, Stephanie Tarry, Sam Dines, Miss Sarah Holmes, Paul Perkins, Mr Toby Thomas, Gareth Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Phillips, Jess Thomas-Symonds, Nick Docherty, Leo Howell, Paul Phillipson, Bridget Thornberry, rh Emily Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Huddleston, Nigel Pollard, Luke Timms, rh Stephen Donelan, Michelle Hudson, Dr Neil Qureshi, Yasmin Trickett, Jon Dorries, Ms Nadine Hughes, Eddie Reed, Steve Turner, Karl Double, Steve Hunt, Jane Rees, Christina Twigg, Derek Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Tom Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Vaz, rh Valerie Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, rh Sajid by Bambos Charalambous) Webbe, Claudia Drax, Richard Jenkin, Sir Bernard Reeves, Rachel West, Catherine Drummond, Mrs Flick Jenkinson, Mark Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Whitehead, Dr Alan Duguid, David Jenrick, rh Robert Rimmer, Ms Marie Whitley, Mick Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Johnson, Dr Caroline Rodda, Matt Whittome, Nadia Dunne, rh Philip Johnson, Gareth Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Williams, Hywel Eastwood, Mark Johnston, David Saville Roberts, rh Liz Wilson, Munira Edwards, Ruth Jones, Andrew Shah, Naz Winter, Beth Ellis, rh Michael Jones, rh Mr David Sharma, Mr Virendra Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jones, Fay Yasin, Mohammad Siddiq, Tulip Eustice, rh George Jones, Mr Marcus Zeichner, Daniel Slaughter, Andy Evans, Dr Luke Jupp, Simon Smith, Cat Tellers for the Ayes: Evennett, rh Sir David Kawczynski, Daniel Smith, Jeff Liz Twist and Everitt, Ben Keegan, Gillian Smith, Nick Matt Western Fabricant, Michael Knight, rh Sir Greg Farris, Laura Knight, Julian NOES Fell, Simon Kruger, Danny Fletcher, Katherine Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Adams, Nigel Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Mark Lamont, John Afolami, Bim Braverman, rh Suella Fletcher, Nick Largan, Robert Afriyie, Adam Brereton, Jack Ford, Vicky Latham, Mrs Pauline Aiken, Nickie Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Kevin Leadsom, rh Andrea Aldous, Peter Brine, Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Levy, Ian Allan, Lucy Bristow, Paul Freeman, George Lewer, Andrew Amess, Sir David Britcliffe, Sara Freer, Mike Lewis, rh Brandon Anderson, Lee Browne, Anthony Fuller, Richard Lewis, rh Dr Julian Anderson, Stuart Bruce, Fiona Fysh, Mr Marcus Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Andrew, Stuart Buchan, Felicity Garnier, Mark Lockhart, Carla Ansell, Caroline Buckland, rh Robert Ghani, Ms Nusrat Loder, Chris Argar, Edward Burghart, Alex Gibb, rh Nick Logan, Mark Atherton, Sarah Burns, rh Conor Gibson, Peter Longhi, Marco Atkins, Victoria Butler, Rob Gideon, Jo Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Bacon, Gareth Cairns, rh Alun Girvan, Paul by Lee Rowley) Bacon, Mr Richard Campbell, Mr Gregory Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Carter, Andy Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lord, Mr Jonathan cast by Leo Docherty) Cartlidge, James Graham, Richard Loughton, Tim Bailey, Shaun Cash, Sir William Grant, Mrs Helen Mackinlay, Craig Baillie, Siobhan Cates, Miriam Gray, James Mackrory, Cherilyn Baker, Duncan Caulfield, Maria Grayling, rh Chris Mak, Alan Baker, Mr Steve Chope, Sir Christopher Green, Chris Malthouse, Kit Baldwin, Harriett Churchill, Jo Green, rh Damian Mangnall, Anthony Barclay, rh Steve Clark, rh Greg Griffith, Andrew Mann, Scott Baynes, Simon Clarke, Mr Simon Griffiths, Kate Marson, Julie Bell, Aaron Clarke, Theo Gullis, Jonathan Mayhew, Jerome Benton, Scott Clarke-Smith, Brendan Halfon, rh Robert Maynard, Paul Beresford, Sir Paul Clarkson, Chris Hall, Luke McCartney, Jason Berry, rh Jake (Proxy vote Cleverly, rh James Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Karl cast by Stuart Andrew) Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hancock, rh Matt McPartland, Stephen Bhatti, Saqib Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hands, rh Greg McVey, rh Esther Blackman, Bob Colburn, Elliot Harper, rh Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Blunt, Crispin Costa, Alberto Harris, Rebecca Millar, Robin Bone, Mr Peter Courts, Robert Harrison, Trudy Miller, rh Mrs Maria Bottomley, Sir Peter Coutinho, Claire Hart, Sally-Ann Milling, rh Amanda Bowie, Andrew Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, rh Simon Mills, Nigel Bradley, Ben Crabb, rh Stephen Hayes, rh Sir John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Bradley, rh Karen Crosbie, Virginia Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mohindra, Gagan 951 Health Inequalities 4 MARCH 2020 Health Inequalities 952
Moore, Damien Smith, Chloe between wealthy and deprived areas, and supports the Government’s Moore, Robbie Smith, Greg commitment to delivering long-term improvements for everyone Morris, Anne Marie Smith, Henry no matter who they are, where they live or their social circumstances. Morris, James Smith, rh Julian Morrissey, Joy Smith, Royston Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) Mullan, Dr Kieran Spencer, Dr Ben (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On 24 February, Mumby-Croft, Holly Spencer, rh Mark during my speech in the Adjournment debate on the Mundell, rh David Stafford, Alexander deaths of social security claimants since 2014, I incorrectly Murray, Mrs Sheryll Stephenson, Andrew stated that Daniella Obeng had taken her own life. I Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Stevenson, Jane would like to correct the record. In fact, Daniella died Neill, Sir Robert Stevenson, John from bronchopneumonia. She also had a brain tumour Nici, Lia Stewart, Bob that resulted in multiple epileptic fits. Nokes, rh Caroline Stewart, Iain Norman, rh Jesse Streeter, Sir Gary Daniella’s family told me that she was a talented Offord, Dr Matthew Stride, rh Mel singer with a caring, supportive boyfriend and a wonderful Paisley, Ian Stuart, Graham 13-year-old son. After her social security support was Parish, Neil Sunderland, James stopped in 2016, she struggled to work because of her Patel, rh Priti Swayne, rh Sir Desmond health conditions. Daniella managed to get a singing Paterson, rh Mr Owen Syms, Sir Robert contract in Qatar for six months, but after just six days Pawsey, Mark Thomas, Derek was found dead in her bedroom. The guitarist who was Penning, rh Sir Mike Timpson, Edward supporting her said that she was having fits during her Penrose, John Tolhurst, Kelly performances and went to bed to recover. Unfortunately, Percy, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin she never woke up. Philp, Chris Tomlinson, Michael Pincher, rh Christopher Tracey, Craig I offer my sincere condolences to Daniella’s family. Poulter, Dr Dan Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie She sounds an absolutely amazing woman. Prentis, Victoria Trott, Laura Mr Speaker: Thank you. We need say no more. It is Pursglove, Tom Truss, rh Elizabeth Quin, Jeremy Tugendhat, Tom now on the record. Quince, Will Vickers, Matt Randall, Tom Villiers, rh Theresa PETITION Redwood, rh John Wakeford, Christian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Walker, Sir Charles Funding for flood defences in Prestolee, Bolton Richards, Nicola Walker, Mr Robin Richardson, Angela Wallis, Dr Jamie 7.16 pm Roberts, Rob Warburton, David Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): This Robertson, Mr Laurence Warman, Matt afternoon there was a debate on the floods, in which I Robinson, Gavin Watling, Giles requested £5 million for flood defences for my constituency. Robinson, Mary Webb, Suzanne In addition, the residents of my constituency have Rosindell, Andrew Whately, Helen prepared a petition to the House of Commons. Ross, Douglas Wheeler, Mrs Heather Rowley, Lee Whittaker, Craig The petition states: Russell, Dean Whittingdale, rh Mr John The petition of residents of the United Kingdom, Rutley, David Wiggin, Bill Declares that Riverside Drive in Prestolee, Bolton, suffered a Sambrook, Gary Wild, James serious flood on 26 December 2015, and a second serious flood Saxby, Selaine Williams, Craig on 9 February 2020. Both of these floods cause significant loss of Scully, Paul property. Residents’ personal belongings have been destroyed, Williamson, rh Gavin Seely, Bob and their homes and vehicles have been wrecked, causing absolute Wilson, rh Sammy Selous, Andrew misery and distress as well as financial hardship. Significant Wragg, Mr William Shannon, Jim distress was caused to residents at time of the floods, and many Shelbrooke, rh Alec Tellers for the Noes: have suffered ongoing anxiety, leading to wider issues of mental Simmonds, David Maggie Throup and health. Following the first flood, the Environment Agency propose Skidmore, rh Chris David T. C. Davies the construction of flood defences to prevent a recurrence of the devastation. However, the Government has not yet provided the funding required and 5 years after the first flood, no flood Question accordingly negatived. defences have yet been installed. With the ever increasing impact Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), of climate change and increasing rainfall, the problem of flooding in this area will not go away and will only get worse. Flood That the proposed words be there added. defences are urgently needed to prevent further loss of property Question agreed to. and risk to life. Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to provide the full funding required for Resolved, installing flood defences at Prestolee as a matter of urgency. That this House notes the publication of Health Equity in And the petitioners remain, etc. England: The Marmot Review 10 Years On, notes that Government is committed to level up outcomes to reduce the health gap [P002562] 953 4 MARCH 2020 Children in the Care System: Sibling 954 Contact Children in the Care System: Sibling siblings. If siblings cannot be placed together, they should Contact have exactly the same rights to contact defined in primary legislation as they do with their parents. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Many siblings who come from neglectful or abusive do now adjourn.—(Leo Docherty.) backgrounds state that the only constant positive,reassuring and enduring relationship they have is with their siblings. 7.18 pm After all, they have a shared experience together. No Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): Thank matter how horrific, those experiences are ones that you very much, Mr Speaker, for allowing me time only they will ever truly know about. Often for younger tonight to speak on behalf of the thousands of children siblings their protector—the one and only person who in care who are separated from their siblings and the has ever kept them safe—is their sibling. While it is not thousands of care experienced adults who had to, and appropriate that an elder sibling should take on that still do, endure this pain. role, it is a fact that they often do. Separating siblings in The relationships that adults deem to be the most those circumstances can have consequences for placement important for children in care are not the same as those stability and create an anxiety for both the younger and that are most important to children in care themselves. the elder sibling. If all they have both ever known is Government guidance acknowledges that maintaining adults who cause them harm, those initial days in contact with siblings is reported by children to be one of placement until they feel safe with their new carers are their highest priorities. Having that relationship ripped the most precarious. In that context, it is only right that away causes them anguish on many levels. An Ofsted sibling contact is given the same prominence as parental study showed that 86% of children in care thought it contact. It cannot be right that our primary legislation was important to keep siblings together and that three gives more weight to a child’s contact with those who quarters thought councils should help children to keep may have, or who have, caused them significant harm in touch with their siblings. Yet shamefully, sibling than it does to contact with their siblings, who are totally contact levels in the care system remain woeful. blameless. I vividly remember and will have etched on my brain Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Lady has forever—although I wish I did not—the times when, as brought a very important issue to the House for a practising social worker, I removed children from consideration, and it affects my constituents as well. their family homes. A promise I gave to them, and to all Does she agree with the National Society for the Prevention the children I worked with, was that if I ever made it to of Cruelty to Children, which says: this place I would not let them down, and that is what “Sustained contact with siblings can promote emotional stability leads me to this debate tonight. and wellbeing for children in care. Siblings share an identity, Removing children from home is one of the most which can promote their self-esteem and provide emotional support while going through care proceedings”? traumatic and heartbreaking experiences. It can be emotional overload for professionals, let alone the family. That is an opinion that should be lent weight, and we There is often a police presence, violence, tears and must do all we can to provide siblings with a legal right utter confusion. Once calm and away from their home, to contact where there has been no accusation of abuse you are left with children alone in your car, having to or any other extenuating safety issue. explain to them by some roadside that not only are they going to be living somewhere else for an open-ended Mrs Lewell-Buck: I thank the hon. Gentleman for period, but they are also going to be separated from that intervention, and those comments echo the legislative their siblings. That is the most painful part of all: no changes that I will propose later in my speech. matter how you explain the situation, children often feel Recent research undertaken by the Centre for Social that it is the end not only of their family relationships Justice suggests that more than 70% of looked-after but of their relationship with their siblings. With each children with a sibling in care are separated from that one of the children you drop off at their respective brother or sister, which is not surprising when the placements, you see a muted relief that they are safe, but average number of sibling foster carers is one per local a deep sadness that they are alone. The wheels of social authority and some have none at all. For those being services then spin into action. Solicitors for the parents cared for in children’s homes, the number of children and the courts demand contact as enshrined in legislation separated from their siblings is a staggering 95%. It is for parents. It is done with urgency, but in a resource-poor also worth noting that we do not know the true scale of environment, what has to be done is often what is done that heartache, because the Government do not think it first. Guidance that recognises the importance of is important enough to record and gather data on how maintaining contact with siblings takes a back seat and many siblings are not in contact with each other in the is deemed a lesser priority. care system. Of course, some children will see their siblings at ConsideringthattheGovernment’smisguided,ideological their parental contact, but that will often be only three austerity agenda has led to them presiding over a record or four times a week for one hour. Sibling contact tends 78,150 children in care, a shortage of foster and residential to be rare, and at times may be only monthly, for one placements and less overall capacity in the social care hour. At the end of the care proceedings children may sector, it is likely that the real picture is far worse. It is be reunited with their parents at home or placed for against that backdrop that sibling contact is so important. permanence with their siblings, but the complications The groundbreaking Children Act 1989 requires local that a lack of previous consistent contact can bring to authorities to allow a looked-after child reasonable those new arrangements may have implications for contact with their parents, but there is no parity of placement breakdowns and dire consequences for the provision for a looked-after child’s contact with their wellbeing of the entire family. 955 Children in the Care System: Sibling 4 MARCH 2020 Children in the Care System: Sibling 956 Contact Contact [Mrs Lewell-Buck] debate. She is always a strong advocate for vulnerable children and young people, and has great experience in I am sure the Minister will remind us that Government this area. guidance recognises the importance of maintaining contact I welcome the opportunity to discuss the important between siblings when they are in separate placements, topic of sibling contact for children in care. As the new but we all know that guidance is no substitute for a clear Children and Families Minister, I want to thank foster duty. If the Government really valued and understood parents, social workers, children’s services, and all those sibling relationships, they would allow their voices to be who dedicate their time, effort and skills to improving heard loud and clear with the full force of primary the lives of those children. I also thank the children legislation. By simply amending section 34 and schedule 2 themselves.I am committed to ensuring that all looked-after to the Children Act 1989 to include siblings and half-siblings, children benefit from the care and support to which they would ensure that upsetting, harmful and costly every child is entitled. It is an important responsibility cases could be avoided. to ensure that vulnerable children are kept safe and are In one such case, five siblings had been in a placement able to flourish. together for five years. The fostering team agreed to The Government are implementing a wide range of move them to another authority with their carers, but reforms designed to improve outcomes. We will be then ripped the children’s worlds apart just before the taking forward a bold and broad review of the social move, advising them that they would be split up and care system, with the aim of better supporting, protecting that two of the siblings would go to a new placement. and improving the outcomes of children and young An advocacy service acting for the children took the people and their families. For the majority of looked-after case to court. The judge deemed that there was a case children, maintaining family links through contact with for judicial review, as article 8 of the European convention parents, siblings, relatives and other connected people is on human rights had been breached. The local authority extremely important. Contact can be crucial in helping eventually compensated the children, but they were them to develop their sense of identity,promote self-esteem never reunited, and spent the rest of their childhoods and provide emotional support. Keeping in touch is not only apart from each other but with zero contact. consistently one of the most important issues that children Two of the children never settled, and suffered immense and young people themselves raise, and I am really feelings of loss not just for their siblings but for their grateful to have the opportunity to discuss this today. former carers. How any Minister cannot grasp the Each child’sneeds,wishes and welfare must be considered opportunity to stop such utter destruction of children’s when making decisions about their care. For many lives is staggering. children, having contact with family, friends and others Throughout the passage of the Children and Social is hugely valued, and can help to support a stable and Work Act 2017, the then Minister, now the hon. Member successful placement. That is why plans for promoting for Eddisbury (Edward Timpson), said that the Government and maintaining contact must be included in every harboured concerns that the changes that I was child’s care plan. By statute, a care plan must set out proposing—along with a plethora of experts and arrangements for the promotion and maintenance of organisations—would not provide the flexibility for a contact with brothers and sisters, whether they are also case-by-case consideration of contact, but of course in care or not, as long as this is consistent with the they would. The welfare checklist and other safeguards child’s welfare. The type of contact a young person has to ensure that parental contact is in the child’s best with their siblings needs careful consideration and planning, interest would apply in the same way to siblings. The and should always be determined by what is best for the Minister also promised that the Government would children concerned. Contact arrangements must be reviewed look at the anomaly in the Care Planning, Placement regularly, including by gathering and acting on the and Case Review (England) Regulations 2010, which do wishes and feelings of each individual child. However, not provide for contact with siblings who are not looked while contact with siblings can be hugely valuable, it after. Three years on, however, no changes have been might not be the right decision in every case. Relationships made. are often complex and involve a range of emotions and In the year in which we celebrate the 30th anniversary potential risks. of the Children Act and the United Nations convention The legal framework is clear on allowing contact on the rights of the child, amid continued criticism of between siblings and placing them together where it in the Government’s appalling record in respect of our their best interests. Historically, there have been concerns most vulnerable children, the new Minister could prove that some contact arrangements were not made on the that the Government care about children and are ready assumption that contact should always take place.1 to break away from the damaging trajectory they have been on for the last 10 years. She could commit herself Mrs Lewell-Buck: On that point, could the Minister to enacting one small yet profoundly important and please advise me where that is to be found in primary significant legislative change. I just hope that in her legislation? response to my speech she will not let me down, but, more importantly, I hope that she will not let down the Vicky Ford: I shall come to the specifics just now. thousands of children who are currently having zero contact with their siblings. This was why the Children and Families Act 2014 emphasised that contact should not directly undermine the welfare and safeguarding of children in care. Schedule 2 7.28 pm to the Act requires that local authorities promote contact The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education between a looked-after child and any relative, friend or (Vicky Ford): I congratulate the hon. Member for South other person connected with the child as long as this is Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) on securing this important consistent with the child’s welfare and is reasonably 1.[Official Report, 16 March 2020, Vol. 673, c. 6MC.] 957 Children in the Care System: Sibling 4 MARCH 2020 Children in the Care System: Sibling 958 Contact Contact practical. That includes siblings. Section 34(2) enables a their views on sibling contact. We have committed to court to make a contact order between a child in care improve the awareness of and access to advocacy services and any named person. This may of course include— for children and young people. On Monday evening, I was delighted to announce Mrs Lewell-Buck: Will the Minister give way? that the Government will take this commitment forward through consultation later this year on a revised and Vicky Ford: Just let me finish this sentence, if I may, fully updated version of the national standards for as it will bring me to what I think the hon. Member advocacy for children. We have also confirmed that we wants me to say about what we are going to do next. will extend the advocacy “safety net” service, Always Section 34(2) enables a court to make a contact order Heard, run by Coram Voice, for another 12 months. between a child in care and any named person. This may of course include any siblings, whether or not they Foster parents play a crucial role in supporting the are also in the care system. As the hon. Member rightly children in their care to stay in touch with the people said, during the passage of the Children and Social who matter to them. We know that it often falls to Work Bill in 2017, we committed to updating the Care carers to facilitate contact between children and their Planning, Placement and Case Review (England) families, and that this can be challenging. In 2018, the Regulations 2010. This would make explicit reference to Government published “Fostering Better Outcomes”, contact with siblings who are not looked after, as well as which sets out our vision for the foster care system in those who are. We have begun an internal review of the England. Through “Fostering Better Outcomes”, we regulations, and I am pleased to confirm to her, within urged social workers to talk to children about what is my first few weeks in this job, that we intend to update important to them, including former foster parents and the regulations before the end of this year, alongside foster siblings. We called for this contact to be encouraged implementing the Government’s response to the current and facilitated if it is what is best for that child. consultation on unregulated provision. Foster parents are often best placed to understand the child and their needs, so it is essential that they are Mrs Lewell-Buck: I thank the Minister for that, but included in the decision-making process and properly with all due respect, will she please confirm that sibling supported to manage contact arrangements. We want contact is not mentioned anywhere in primary legislation? to understand where this partnership working is working That is the point of this debate. well, how we can share good practice and how to ensure that foster carers are always an integral part of placement Vicky Ford: I would like to confirm that it refers to planning. Therefore, we will launch a network of fostering any relative, which can include any siblings, but I take trailblazers this year. That will initially focus on support the hon. Lady’s point and I will look at it. As I said, will for foster carers, ensuring that they are empowered to be updating the regulations. have input into decisions for the children in their care, Ultimately, all contact decisions should be based on including on supporting children through contact. each child’sindividual circumstances.The current legislation I also want to put on record my support for the provides for flexibility for decisions to be made case by Fostering Network’s campaign, Keep Connected, which case, and we have committed to revising the statutory promotes maintaining relationships for children and guidance on fostering to ensure that it is clear, straight- young people through and beyond periods of transition. forward and focused on the importance of the child’s voice. This will emphasise the need for relationships Maintaining relationships and contact with siblings, outside immediate placements to provide young people family or other trusted individuals can help to give with a sense of belonging that lasts into adulthood. children the stability they need to develop. We want Those revisions will need to be undertaken in consultation children to experience stable care placements and the with children, foster parents and other stakeholders. We consistency of relationships, and for them to keep in will set out a timetable for that in due course. touch with the people who are most important to them. The role of the independent reviewing officer is key to making sure that, where appropriate, sibling contact Mrs Lewell-Buck: The Minister is generous in giving takes place. They must check that the child is happy way again. with their contact with siblings, and that the frequency What checks do the Government carry out on how and quality of contact are right for them. many children and young people in the care system We know that the quality and consistency of IRO actually have contact with the siblings they are separated services remains variable, and we are working to promote from? a coherent strategy for improvement. We have formed a new steering group with the national IRO organisations and key national partners. Furthermore, there is a specific Vicky Ford: As the hon. Lady has said, the Government requirement for the care plan to set out arrangements do not have statistics on that, but we are looking at for the promotion and maintenance of contact with reviewing the regulations and, as I have just said, sharing brothers and sisters, as far as is consistent with the better practice. child’s welfare. That is in paragraphs 3(1) and 3(4) of We want children to experience stable care placements schedule 1 of the Children Act 1989 care planning and consistent relationships, and we want them to be guidance. able to keep in touch with the people who are most Regarding advocacy, which the hon. Lady mentioned, important to them. We need to equip social workers all children must have access to an advocate to help with the skills and knowledge to make effective decisions them express their feelings and to ensure that their on permanence and the importance of relationships. views are taken into account. This especially includes That is one reason why we have funded the development 959 Children in the Care System: Sibling 4 MARCH 2020 Children in the Care System: Sibling 960 Contact Contact [Vicky Ford] This is the first time I have spoken in a debate as a Minister,so let me reassure the House that I am committed of continuous professional development resources focused to securing the best possible outcomes for children and on permanence, and this material is now available to the young people in care. I look forward to working across sector. the Floor with Members who have such experience to Enduring relationships are often what gives us the make sure that these children are happy, and are able to resilience that we all need when things go wrong, so the have happy, stable and fulfilling lives. importance of maintaining contact with siblings and Question put and agreed to. other trusted individuals cannot be overestimated—I understand that. Contact with siblings is the right thing to do when it is in the best interests of an individual 7.41 pm child. House adjourned. 273WH 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 274WH
Sir Iain Duncan Smith: It is either absurd or I will Westminster Hall have to review my purchase from John Lewis. My socks might even be bugged! My right hon. Friend is exactly right. I want to make this point, which often goes Wednesday 4 March 2020 missing in this debate. Huawei is also seen as a national security threat. It continues to deal extensively with Iran without full public knowledge of how; it built a [IAN PAISLEY in the Chair] mobile network for North Korea; and it is providing security surveillance and censoring systems to authoritarian regimes, not least the Chinese Government. Huawei and 5G It has long been documented that Huawei has a long and intimate history with the Chinese security services, 9.30 am and there are issues around the security systems that have been provided for them, which are now being used, Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford I think, to supress the Uyghur people. I have real Green) (Con): I beg to move, concerns about that. That this House has considered the security implications of including Huawei in 5G. Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, I want to bring to the right hon. Gentleman’s attention Mr Paisley. I am pleased to see so that many right hon. a recently published report from the Australian Strategic and hon. Members want to speak, so I will be as brief as Policy Institute, “Uyghurs for sale”, which reports a possible. horrific programme of exporting Uyghurs from Xinjiang The Government’s decision to go ahead with Huawei to other parts of China. According to the report, Huawei in the 5G network in the UK—it is clear from the is one of the companies that has benefited as a consequence. evidence—has angered our allies and perplexed many of us who see this as an avoidable risk. In the rush—I Sir Iain Duncan Smith: That is shocking. If true, it is believe it is a rush—to go ahead with the 5G system for an absolute indictment. The British Government and the UK using Huawei’s products extensively, the UK other western Governments must speak up more about Government have brushed aside the concerns of all our this and say that what is going on there is simply most important allies and the people we generally rely intolerable. If that were any other Government, it would on. There is an overwhelming body of evidence indicating be shocking. It is time that we call it what it is. that Huawei is an untrusted vendor, which should not If all that is not enough to make one concerned—it be given any further opportunity of access to our most should be—I hope that the UK Government, my vital communication networks. Government, have noticed the following: The decision of the UK Government leaves us, at the “Asuperseding indictment was returned yesterday in federal court moment, utterly friendless among our allies. After all, in Brooklyn, New York, charging Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd. (Huawei), the world’s largest telecommunications equipment Huawei is effectively a state-owned corporation in the manufacturer, and two U.S. subsidiaries with conspiracy to violate People’s Republic of China under the Communist party. the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act”. Huawei Technologies is 99%-owned by Huawei Investment That is a very serious charge, which was made a matter & Holding, which in turn is completely owned by of weeks ago, yet the UK Government announced that Huawei Investment & Holding’s trade union committee. although they recognise Huawei as an untrusted provider, According to Chinese law, trade union committees are we would not stop network providers using Huawei classified as public or mass organisations, which do not equipment in the new 5G system. Instead of banning have shareholders, as they are recognised under Chinese them, as our allies have done, we would place limits on law as legal persons or entities in their own right. An the locations and the extent to which Huawei products example of a public organisation would be the Communist may be deployed in our 5G network, to reduce Huawei’s Youth League. involvement over time to the figure of 35%.
Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): The relationship Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): Does between Huawei and the state is the same as the Communist my right hon. Friend agree that by conceding that there Youth League to the state. Therefore, is it not baffling is a problem and that it must be limited to 35%, the that the Government continue to argue that Huawei is a Government are admitting that the only safe option is private company, given that, by the western definition, to go to 0%? We have infuriated the Americans and our that cannot be said in any meaningful sense? other allies in the Five Eyes. We know the Foreign Secretary had a bad time in Australia. Should we not Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I agree. That is exactly the have a concerted programme now with the Five Eyes point I was making. allies to get to 0% over a short period of time?
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): I was on a radio Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I completely agree. I think the programme a couple of weeks ago with a director of figure of 35% has been plucked from thin air. I will Huawei in this country, who happens to be a former come on to the reasons why it does not work. Imagine permanent secretary.I was surprised to hear him describe that in 1939 we had been developing our radar systems Huawei as being rather like John Lewis, in that it was and decided to have one of the Nazi companies in owned by its employees, and that we had all got this Germany directly involved. Oh, but we reduced their wrong. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is an involvement to 35%, so they only controlled 35%. I absurd characterisation of Huawei? wonder how ridiculous that would have seemed. 275WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 276WH
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): My right hon. allowing China into our security and societal networks; Friend is making an excellent speech. I am not an expert on the other hand, there is the economic opportunity in this field, but as the technology catches up, the cost of excluding Huawei from 5G. In the final analysis, Government intend to reinject our technology into 5G. does my right hon. Friend agree that security and I assume that once the Chinese are in there, we will democracy trump economics in all circumstances? never get them out. Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I am really grateful to my hon. Sir Iain Duncan Smith: That is the point. Each time, Friend for that intervention. He is absolutely right; at we are told that they will reduce, but, in fact, we get the end of it all, our point is that defence of the realm more and more addicted to them and are unable to comes first. change. When the Government announced the figure of 35%, Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) they made the point that the plan to exclude Huawei (LD): The right hon. Gentleman is making a really products from the core of the 5G infrastructure meant first-class speech. Of course, the argument about 5G or that we would solve the problem by restricting them 4G is rather esoteric in parts of my constituency, because only to the edge, as it was described. This position far too many of my constituents have zero G; I will just critically rests on the assumption that the core cannot put that on the record. However, when we buy the box be compromised from the edge. Most cyber experts of tricks from the Chinese, if I can call it that, is there whom I have spoken to know that this is an unsafe not also an issue, in that we are losing something here? assumption, because they know that the whole 5G That is because in this country we must maintain our network can be attacked starting from the compromised skills in all of this stuff, and I believe that in going down edge, given the nature of change to the technological this route we are going down a very dangerous road capability of the edge. indeed in that regard. The edge components can be compromised. Indeed, there is some evidence that such attacks have already Sir Iain Duncan Smith: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely taken place on a limited scale elsewhere. For example, a right and I will come back to that point in a short while. hostile adversary might disable our 5G network by Although the Government claim that 5G will increase simply shutting down our antennas and/or routers at network capacity,there are concerns about the proliferation the edge by remotely activating the malware already of the connected internet of things—the IOT devices—and buried inside many of those processors. Those embedded a dramatic increase in self-driving cars with next-generation in the edge will have kill switches, which are currently telematics. That is the key point. nigh on impossible to detect and, therefore, to mitigate. There may be response-time critical benefits—in fact, Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con): there certainly are—in future with 5G, such as how My right hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. self-driving cars share safety-critical information with One facet of living in a free country is that we are free to one another. However, these applications overwhelmingly make our own mistakes. This is the first big mistake that lie in the future and importantly will rely on a wider set we have made. As a former Armed Forces Minister, of technological changes and significant changes in I want to reinforce everything he has said. Given what I social attitudes; we must bear that in mind. This pressure learned when I was in office, the idea that we can keep that we can do things tomorrow, or within a few years, them securely on the edge is complete and utter nonsense. will somehow be another one of those gains that are used to leverage the idea that we have to make this Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I agree with my right hon. development. Friend and he will see that in the course of my remarks I will point out that we—alone, it appears—are taking Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): My an enormous gamble. right hon. Friend makes the very important point that if The second reason the Government prayed in aid of 5G is the technology of the future, it will drive many their decision on 5G was the fact that it offered three things that people use on a daily basis. Does he agree main benefits: faster data transmission rates, shorter that we should not accept critical infrastructure for this delays and increased network capacity. While faster data country to be built by companies that we have no trust transmission rates can improve user experience—there in and about which there are serious security concerns, is no doubt about that—for most people, 5G will not and that if we do not have the capacity to build that 5G significantly impact their experience. Tasks such as viewing system now, we should build coalitions of companies a movie will not be perceptibly different from 4G. In any that can work together and be credible alternative providers case, the data speeds offered by 5G—100 megabits per of this important technology? second to 1000 megabits per second—are in the range offered by more conventional superfast fibre broadband. Sir Iain Duncan Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely In many cases, the desired performance can and should right and prompts the question: who has been asleep on be achieved by other means. Completing the roll-out of their watch? That goes right back to the time when the superfast fibre broadband, which my Government have Labour party was in government and was not even told constantly promised to complete to the level it should be by civil servants that they had made the decision to at, is the No. 1 priority. Further, that will affect the approve the involvement of 5G. Saying that is not to ability of 5G to operate. blame Ministers; it was the fault originally of civil servants. Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): This comes down to a Even if the Government disagree about the urgent rather taxing conundrum. On the one hand, we have the need for such developments or disagree with my argument intense concern of our Five Eyes partners about potentially about this issue, surely, as my hon. Friend the Member 277WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 278WH for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) said, security vendors. Surely,therefore, it is inevitable that the worldwide is a greater priority. Government policy must consider roll-out of 5G must slow down. Given that so many the wisdom of proceeding to deploy vast numbers of nations are saying no to Huawei, this should be an IOT sensors in our environment, offices and homes, opportunity for us to prioritise national security over unless and until current legitimate security concerns the breakneck speed with which the deployment of 5G about this issue have been laid to rest. is being pressed on us. John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I thank the right hon. Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I, Gentleman for securing this extremely important debate. too, praise my right hon. Friend for making a very First, may I say that it is quite clear in this Chamber strong speech. Does he agree that the two successful that there is bipartisan support for his position, as roll-outs of 5G so far have been carried out in South indeed there is in the United States among Republicans Korea and Japan—by Samsung and Fujitsu respectively— and Democrats on this issue, and as indeed there is in and neither of them seems to have included Huawei? Australia with the Australian Liberal Government and the Australian Labour party on this issue? Therefore, one must ask: why are the Government pursuing this Sir Iain Duncan Smith: Yes, I agree. My hon. Friend course? I ask that because the right hon. Gentleman is makes a very good point. In fact, I have read a note slightly in danger of accepting the argument that somehow from Samsung declaring that it is completely feasible to Huawei is light years ahead of other companies in this do this work without any involvement from Huawei. field. It is probably a few months ahead, given the Indeed, Samsung made very clear its belief that Huawei nature of this industry, which is always changing rapidly, is a direct threat to our national security because its and companies such as Ericsson, Nokia and Samsung system is not a trusted one. are clearly developing, too. What those companies really Far from Huawei having some insurmountable need are orders, which are what Huawei has had from technological lead, it seems, when one starts to investigate, the Chinese Government, to pull through their development. that the quality of its work is no better than anybody else’s, and in some cases somewhat worse. I recall even Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I am grateful, as ever, to the Dr Ian Levy, the technical director of GCHQ’s National right hon. Gentleman, who is in danger of making my Cyber Security Centre, saying about a year ago that speech before I do, because I am coming on to those Huawei’s security was “very, very shoddy”. He also said points. He will find that we not do not just have cross-party that support; we are absolutely linked in our concern about “it’s engineering like it’s back in the year 2000”. Huawei. I will come back to this point later, but I am afraid We need to take stock of this nonsense propaganda that that a lot of this issue is about the way in which the Huawei is light years ahead as an organisation. Yes, it establishment at the moment in the UK has somehow has a lot of people in research and development, but the found itself locked into this Huawei process, and we reality is that its development has been about money. need to break it free; it is like getting somebody free of The Government saythat telecommunications companies an addiction to heroin. Weneed to put it into rehabilitation, are all reliant on Huawei. It was said earlier in the which is the point of my speech at the moment. debate that telcos are absolutely reliant on Huawei, so delay would leave them significantly out of pocket. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): According to that line of argument, however, I would The right hon. Gentleman is making the case that argue that reducing Huawei’s involvement to even 35% security is paramount. Does he agree that there is also a would leave telcos out of pocket, so we are already commercial argument, in that the Government are going halfway there, as it were. It seems daft to try to make to reward Huawei, which has bought its way into the that argument. system? Its first tenders in the 3G and 4G networks Of course, the reliance on Huawei comes as a result were at a quarter of the costs of its commercial competitors of it having constantly bid well below other market in Europe and North America. We should not reward competitors for UK and other business. After all, there people who are basically trying to bankrupt our industry. is a long history of the China Development Bank Sir Iain Duncan Smith: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely providing low-cost financing for Huawei customers, right. This relates to my earlier comment about the and that approach is updated every few years. A recent linkage with the Government. I will come back to report estimates that, when one takes in tax breaks, Huawei’s ability to draw on support finance—which we grants and low-cost land acquisitions, the subsidy comes might call Government support. to more than $75 billion. No western company in this sector will be able to compete on those grounds. I am aware that you want me to make progress, Mr Paisely, so I shall. I will also ask others to restrain Despite all that, it is not common knowledge that at themselves slightly,although I will not refuse interventions. least one very significant UK service provider has contacted That will not win me points from you, Mr Paisley, but I me to say that it has already made clear that it will not will not defy my colleagues. use Huawei in its 5G network. O2 suggests that the idea Perhaps most bizarrely, I think that the rush by the that these systems cannot be created without Huawei—my Government is being driven by the fear that we will be hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling left behind by others. It is worth tackling that point. I (Tom Tugendhat) mentioned this earlier—is complete find it difficult to comprehend their position, given that and utter nonsense. a growing number of leading western nations, many of The NCSC’s guidance does not even mention services. them our competitors in many fields, intend not to use I understand that Huawei is now taking over the managed Huawei—in fact, they will depart completely from Huawei, services for another operator, Three, which opens up yet even if that means a delay—or any other untrusted another huge area to gather information from. If someone 279WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 280WH
[Sir Iain Duncan Smith] Sir Iain Duncan Smith: My right hon. Friend is right. He also comes to a point that I will make shortly. My has a map of a radio network, they will also have a map concern is that there are other logical reasons in play, of everything connected to that radio network. They which I want to talk about in a second. will know what each piece is, what it does and how to attack it. Richard Drax: Will my right hon. Friend give way? Yet our dependence on Huawei goes even deeper—much deeper than many people realise. I have just noticed that Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I will give way one last time. I Huawei is present in the emergency services network, am aware of Mr Paisley’s guidance. which is often referred to as the blue lamp or blue light service. The service is part of our critical national Richard Drax: I am so grateful. This is my second infrastructure, but the issue did not come out in the intervention, and then I will sit down and shut up. On statements. I am astonished that that would be allowed. the list that my right hon. Friend just gave, one thing he We can imagine how dangerous any form of disruption did not mention was trade. As the UK leaves the EU, we would be to that service. It beggars belief. Then I desperately seek our friends and allies to make a good discovered that MI5 uses a systems provider that is trade deal. As I understand it, the US is now thinking heavily dependent on Huawei equipment. These decisions not to sign up to a trade deal if 5G is linked to any part are barking mad. of it.
John Spellar: The right hon. Gentleman mentions Sir Iain Duncan Smith: There is no question that the Three. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North US Administration are very exercised by the UK’s West (Alex Sobel), who is much more technically proficient, decision to go ahead with 5G and Huawei. In fact, I has looked that up for me. Three is owned by a company cannot think of any other time when we have been so in Hong Kong. separated from most of our allies that we respect. The thing I cannot get is that even Vietnam, for God’s Sir Iain Duncan Smith: The point I am making is that sake—a communist country next door to China—will the systems and everything else that is being used are not have Huawei in their systems. making things very vulnerable. The right hon. Gentleman makes my point exactly. Tom Tugendhat: They knows their neighbours. I am worried about the Government mobile system, Sir Iain Duncan Smith: Indeed. We are all neighbours which I understand the Government are working on. As in the global environment, as the dreadful coronavirus usual for the civil service, it has some ghastly acronym. shows us. It is called gomo for short, which rather describes the process that we have been going through so far with The problem is compounded—this is not really spoken Huawei. The Government have decreed that it will be of in these debates, and the Government never make one supplier only. It stands to reason that unless the any mention of this—is a deeper and further problem. Government block untrusted providers from the system, It exposes the degree to which western Governments, we will likely be handing over control of yet another including our Government, to a degree—I am talking vital and sensitive system to the organisation under about successive Governments; this is not a shot at my discussion. That is a big question for the Government. Government, as the issue goes back further than that—have Will they ensure that when that contract is let, the taken their eye off the ball. Much of the available supplier will not have any input from untrusted providers equipment, including electronic sub-assemblies, is of such as Huawei? The Minister needs to answer that unknown security provenance. At present, beyond existing question. contracted functions, we have little to no idea what else lies in our installed systems. UK Governments and Mr Francois: And can John Lewis bid for it? others—I particularly want to focus on my Government— have done little to tackle the problem. Understanding Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I do not think John Lewis is in what is inside the chips and processors is critical. Any the market, but we can check that. I have not been there malware needs to be detected. Surely, after all these for any telecommunications. years, we could have worked to ensure as much as possible that products deployed into secure or critical I say to my colleagues and to you, Mr Paisley, that the national infrastructure are auditable, so that we understand situation is an utter mess at the moment. what is in them. What better way to do that than by collaboration with our Five Eyes allies, to ensure that Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I we drive security much deeper? Nothing has happened, have been listening carefully to my right hon. Friend’s however. brilliant speech. As far as I can see, so far he has knocked down the Government’s arguments on technical We are in a mess, and the only way to get out of it, as grounds, diplomatic grounds, security grounds, practical my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire grounds, commercial grounds and public safety grounds. (Mr Paterson) said, is to ensure that Huawei’s involvement After listening to his speech, there are no grounds on is reduced from the Government’s present position of which to accept Huawei involvement in our national 35% down to 0%. I recognise that may take a little time, infrastructure. Can it be, therefore, that the Government’s but that should be the purpose of the Government over only argument for accepting Huawei’s involvement is the next two years. fear of China’s economic and geostrategic power? Giving Successive British Governments—this is the point in to that may be expedient, but does my right hon. that my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice Friend agree that it would be geostrategically wrong to and Howden (Mr Davis) made—have tried to get close kowtow to the Chinese Government? to China in the hope that we can take advantage of 281WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 282WH their markets. I recognise that that is not unreasonable, of the Government not recognise the threat? Do we but in so doing, we seem to be playing a dangerous allow a foreign company potential access to every laptop, game. After all, this totalitarian regime is not an ally of phone and self-driving car in this country and pay them ours, and we get confused about that at times, even if for the privilege? Do we allow one of the main suppliers the Foreign Office is reluctant to admit that China of the great firewall to have free rein over our internet poses a threat to us, for fear of upsetting the Chinese back end here? Do we allow a company, closely aligned Government. That threat is not just in its cyber-attacks to a state that has more than 1 million Uyghur Muslims on our systems, but also in the way in which it does not locked up without trial, access to our network infra- obey the international rules-based order in trade. That structure? I think not. point has been made today. By the way, no other There have been some attempts to separate the horrors country does a level of business proportionate to its of the Chinese state and Huawei the company, but we population as much as Australia does with China. Australia have seen time and again that Huawei is intimately is not frightened of saying no to the procedure, and I do intertwined with Chinese policy towards the Uyghur. not see anybody trying to beat it up on trade. Sometimes According to the Australian Strategic Policy Institute: I wonder if we do not project the sense of power or “Huawei works directly with the Chinese Government’s Public force that we should. Security Bureau in Xinjiang on a range of projects.” As the UK leaves the EU, we should avoid kowtowing, We know that Huawei is collaborating with the Chinese as my right hon. Friend so rightly said—that wonderful Government to build mass surveillance to target the Chinese act of placing one’s forehead on the ground in Uyghur people. Why are we rolling out the red carpet to front of one’s respected superior—to China or anyone Huawei? It has shown little concern about human rights else. The British Government should commit to reducing violations. Its company policy asks: and eradicating our dependence on Huawei, in line with “Is it legal within the countries in which we operate?” our allies. That is really important. After all, defence of the realm is surely our first priority, and that goes for That is its criterion. It says it is for others to make a cyber-space as well. If defence of the realm is our first judgment on whether that is right or wrong. Is that the priority, what the Government are proposing today is kind of company we want at the heart of our infrastructure? not defence of the realm, but semi-defence of the realm, On workers’ rights, we know that Huawei mistreats and that simply will not do. not only the Uyghurs, but its own workers. It operates a “wolf” work culture of long hours and brutal workplace Ian Paisley (in the Chair): Wehave had a 26 minute-speech norms. Hours are so long that new employees are given or thereabouts and 15 interventions, some very substantial, mattresses to collapse on. The wolf culture encourages which have maybe taken the ardour out of some people employees to break and bend rules. It means that the already. I have 11 speakers to get in, including the company uses the police against its own workers, with Front-Bench spokespersons for the Government and some being imprisoned for months and months. the Opposition parties. I will therefore be time-limiting Huawei will not hesitate to break the trust that the Members to four minutes, to allow all the speakers on Government have placed in them if it thinks it will my official list to speak. However,if they take interventions, benefit the company. The Government can choose to that could be reduced or may knock a speaker out. release the wolf into our country, but they cannot be surprised if they then get bitten. Ironically, the company 9.57 am claims to be owned by the same workers that it mistreats, but its ownership structures, as the right hon. Member Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): I associate for Chingford and Woodford Green said, are hugely opaque. myself with much of what the right hon. Member for The operating company is 100% owned by a holding Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) company, which is in turn approximately 1% owned by has said. Much of Britain’s security future is not invested Huawei’s founder and 99% owned by an entity called a in weapons or armies, but in communications. The “trade union committee”. decision to allow Huawei into Britain’s communications puts our infrastructure at risk. Giving Huawei 35% of the 5G network and allowing it into our infrastructure 10.1 am sends a message globally that in terms of telecoms Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): It is a pleasure to security, anything goes in the UK. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley.I congratulate The 5G network is coming and it will be beneficial. my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and The question is how to bring the network forward. Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) on securing Innovations that allow us to speak to friends across the the debate. In the four minutes that I have I shall go world, that give us limitless information and that will through some of the important points that have not ensure that mobile wi-fi speeds rival those of broadband been covered. Huawei is a high-risk vendor and should are necessary for our economic viability, but those not be in our critical national infrastructure. That is the possibilities create new threats, such as the placing of first significant mistake that this Government have made. spy cameras in every home and microphones in every How bad and how serious it becomes will be obvious in workplace. time. I want to cover not only national security, which The Americans and the Dutch recognise the threat. my right hon. Friend has eloquently spoken about, but The former chief of MI6 recognises the threat. In data privacy, our values, our alliances, and, critically, December 2018, the then Defence Secretary—now the other issues around the competence of Huawei, and fair Secretary of State for Education—expressed grave and trade and economics. deep concerns about Huawei providing technology to I still do not understand why the Government continue upgrade Britain’s services to 5G. He accused Beijing of to claim that Huawei is a private firm. The point has sometimes acting in a malign way. Why can the rest been made already that it is 99% owned by Chinese 283WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 284WH
[Bob Seely] business practices it has—we have been told of quite a few—it can undercut by 30% to 50% any other vendor. trade unions, so will the Minister explain why he and By allowing Huawei in the system, we effectively allow previous Ministers—certainly previous Ministers—have data privacy issues, damage to our alliances, and damage argued that Huawei is a private firm when to all intents to free trade. We do western companies out of business and purposes it is part and parcel of the Chinese state? so that we will have to become reliant in due course on The Government claim that Huawei can be safely limited China’s 5G as part of a significant power play in our to the periphery of a network. Most experts and many critical national infrastructure. security agencies say not. I quote Mike Burgess, head of Australia’s version of GCHQ: 10.6 am “The distinction between core and edge collapses in 5G networks. That means that a potential threat anywhere in the network will Ian Paisley (in the Chair): I call Stuart C McDonald. be a threat to the whole network.” Will the Minister comment on that? One of Mike Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): Burgess’s senior directors, Simeon Gilding, tried to I will take it, Chair, because the other one is not here. I design a system that could have a high-risk vendor in guess you mean me. [Laughter.] Australia’s five G network. He failed and said it was not possible. He said that the British Ian Paisley (in the Chair): I beg your pardon. “think they can manage the risk but we don’t think that is Stewart Malcolm McDonald: That is quite all right. plausible given Huawei would be subject to direction from hostile intelligence services.” We can tell this debate is important because of the variety of personalities sitting here. We have several Again, will the Minister comment on that? Are there former Cabinet Ministers, a former Deputy Prime Minister, espionage issues with Huawei? They are multiple. Chinese and the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. national intelligence law states that citizens have to The Chairman and the former Chairman of the Digital, co-operate. Furthermore, it states that the information Culture, Media and Sport Committee were here earlier. that Huawei gets from the UK is the property of the If the Tory party had a politburo, this would be it. It is Chinese state. Again, will the Minister comment? clearly a sign that the Government have trouble ahead, China has a dreadful reputation for cyber-attacks. and so they should. I do not need to echo many of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army soldiers have been objections already made by Members here this morning. charged with the 2017 cyber-security security attack on I am sure they will continue as the debate goes on, not Equifax, which included data on millions of Britons. only here in this room today, but in other parts of the Why does the Minister think the Chinese want to collect House. so much information on so many millions of people in I want the House to consider the issue in a much the west? That applies not only to Britons, but the 21.5 broader sense. Who writes the rules on this part of million files they stole on US federal employees in 2015. international engagement when it comes to things such Can the Huawei Cell offer reassurances? Not really. It as the use of chemical or nuclear weapons, or traditional states that the Cell kinetic warfare? We have all kinds of international rules “can only provide limited assurance that all risks to UK national and treaties on the international order, as the right hon. security from Huawei’s involvement...can be sufficiently mitigated”. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) mentioned, but we have very little written It complained that no material progress was being made down internationally with our partners when it comes by Huawei on the concerns of 2018, and it continued to to the cyber world. As far as I can see, as the hon. identify security issues. Are there other security issues? Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) Yes, for sure there are. I quote Finite State, a respected said, by dint of China buying its way into the market, US company: China is writing the rules. The decision has been made “Huawei devices quantitatively pose a high risk to their users.. by the UK Government from a position of enormous In virtually all categories we studied, we found Huawei devices to weakness.I take no pleasure in that. I want the Government be less secure.” to get this right, but they are getting it wrong—badly Bloomberg reported that Vodafone in several countries wrong. found illicit backdoors on Huawei technology. In March The Government are getting it wrong not only because 2019, Microsoft uncovered Huawei MateBook systems of all the issues around privacy and the broader issues running a system whereby unauthorised people could of security, and not only because of the actor involved create super-user privileges. There are significant industrial and its appalling human rights record, but they are in espionage issues with Huawei. Will the Minister comment danger of being present but not involved, to coin a on those? phrase, when it comes to setting rules that our citizens We know about Huawei’s involvement in China’s rely on so that we can live peacefully, freely and with human rights abuses. It works closely with the state in prosperity. If this is global Britain, I am concerned. Xinjiang province. Indeed, it boasts about it. In this Global Britain is not my project, but I wish it well. It is country, it is a private company. In China, it is part and important that it is got right. From where I stand, this parcel of the state apparatus. I would love a comment looks like gullible Britain, and I think that is a great from the Minister. Huawei claims it is a market leader. shame. According to Chris Balding, an academic who studies During the 2014 independence referendum the Huawei, it is not. It is ranked fourth to sixth globally. It parliamentary private secretary to the Minister, the has a $100 billion credit line from the China Development hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk Bank, which means that, apart from any other questionable (John Lamont), who is sitting here, would have argued 285WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 286WH that an independent Scotland would be thrown out of network as a whole. As a result of their implementation, Five Eyes and unable to get access to it. It strikes me we will have some of the most secure networks in the that the United Kingdom is doing its best to get chucked world. The TSRs provide a clear and exhaustive list of out of Five Eyes at this very minute, and I do not want sensitive functions related to the control, orchestration that to happen. and virtualisation of our networks where high-risk vendors I hope that the Minister will respond to many of the cannot be used. They will not be used in the intelligence concerns that have been raised, but we all need to lift or control planes of the network, and therefore will our eyes a bit. We need greater international co-operation not interact with customer traffic in a detailed manner. on attribution. Given that we do not have—here comes Any impact of failure will also have a limited, localised the dreaded phrase—a coalition of the willing in order geographical reach. to set some rules, we will continue to be played by not Many understandable concerns have been raised that just China but Iran, Russia, North Korea, non-state moving to 5G networks will somehow merge those actors and surrogate actors. My goodness, what a mess sensitive functions, often referred to as core functions, that will make. with less sensitive parts of the network in which equipment If we are serious about global Britain—my party has from high-risk vendors will be used. Moving to 5G something to say on that—let us have that discussion, network technologies could enable us to move sensitive but we cannot talk about Huawei and 5G in isolation, functions out to the edge of the network, but “could” because there is a much bigger picture and something does not mean “should”. Were we to do so, using a more dangerous at stake. high-risk vendor would be the least of our problems. The further restrictions of only one high-risk vendor 10.10 am in the network and the hard cap of 35% further enhance Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con): I start by declaring the security standards. Security architecture principles an interest: I used to work for BT’s cyber-security team are not a desperate measure to enable us to use a before I was elected. I have spent 10 years working in high-risk vendor; they are part of every network deployment the cyber-security industry, and I refer the House to my everywhere, whether it is a telecoms network at national entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. level or a business network at company level. More sensitive information and functions with higher risk are The security of our telecoms network is vital as we treated differently from those with lower risk. A blanket move towards an ever more connected society and approach of doing away with all higher-risk vendors or economy. It does not, however, rest on the presence or technologies would mean that we could not use emerging absence of equipment from any single supplier. Strong technologies that offer so much benefit when deployed cyber-security for any system, including our telecoms appropriately. networks, is determined by: the security architecture principles that have been followed in its design; how the Today’s motion specifically references Huawei. The system is managed in-life, including the security controls UK has globally leading insight into Huawei’s operations, and monitoring around it; the contingency planning processes and products through the Government-chaired that has taken place,which enables any risks that materialise Huawei cyber-security evaluation centre. Whoever the to be dealt with effectively; and the testing of that vendor is, any responsible telecoms provider will fully contingency planning. test all hardware and software before deploying it into their networks. I will address each of those briefly, but the key thing I wish to emphasise is that there is no risk-free option. Bob Seely: Is that not the problem? So much of our Regardless of the equipment used, our telecoms networks, kit is not being tested, which is why we need a fuller Government bodies, businesses and critical national security audit. Also, the Cell is becoming increasingly infrastructure operators will always be targets for nation concerned about Huawei, saying that Huawei is not states, aggressors, criminals and hackers. The key thing delivering the improvements that the Cell needs. The is to manage the risk and reduce it to an acceptable Cell highlights those concerns in its reports. level. That is what, in my view, the telecoms security requirements achieve. Ruth Edwards: I thank my hon. Friend for that point. Bob Seely: I am sorry to interrupt; I know that time is There are engineering problems in Huawei, and the short. Is my hon. Friend saying that there is no implication Government and many UK customers have been very for 5G security, never mind the geopolitics and politics, clear that they want Huawei to solve them. The news of having a high-risk, untrusted vendor from a potentially that I must give him is that if he started looking at the adversarial state in the system? Is it not like giving the code of any supplier, he would see security issues. In burglar the keys to our house, while pretending that we security engineering, I am afraid that people make have a safe that is safe? mistakes when it comes to software. Equipment and performance is monitored in-life by Ruth Edwards: For a start, there are no trusted vendors. telcos, and threat hunting is carried out across the Most companies operate a zero-trust policy when it whole network. Technologies are increasingly powered comes to all cyber-security vendors. Secondly, the key by artificial intelligence.AI look for anomalies of behaviour point is how we manage that risk. I will go on to answer both inside the network, in terms of patterns of incoming the question in a bit more detail, if my hon. Friend will traffic, and suspicious outbound traffic. Attempts to bear with me. sabotage equipment or exfiltrate data at scale will be The TSRs establish a baseline for security in telecoms, detected. and put it on a statutory footing. They prohibit the use The National Cyber Security Centre,my former employer of high-risk vendors in sensitive functions of the network, BT and many other telcos have all been very clear that and cap the use of such vendors at 35% across the they have not previously detected attempts at malicious 287WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 288WH
[Ruth Edwards] China has tried to re-educate them through forced labour and surveillance of what they are doing, and has activity by Huawei. If they had, they would hardly be used Huawei 5G to do so. Huawei has also been deeply doing business with them for their 5G networks. However, involved in organ harvesting—commercial harvesting we cannot rely on the past to determine the future. That of organs from people who just happen to have a is why the cap on the amount of equipment provided by different faith. one supplier is so important, as it stops an over-reliance The Financial Post has given this summary: on one supplier in the network. Other arrangements, “The United Kingdom has now broken ranks with many of its such as the escrow of source code, enable providers to closest allies”— isolate equipment in their networks and take over full operation of it, should that be deemed necessary due to allies in whom we have great trust— mounting international tensions. “including fellow members of the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing club. The British government classified Chinese company as a ‘high-risk vendor’ and banned it from the core network that Ian Paisley (in the Chair): Order. I call Jim Shannon. manages access and authentication, but nevertheless permitted it to compete for up to 35 percent market share in the country’s 10.17 am access network—that is, its antennae and similar equipment.” I am only one of 650 Members of this House, and I Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you, absolutely believe in the tenets of democracy, but I will Mr Paisley. It is a pleasure to speak in the debate. I not stay silent. I do not believe that what the Government thank the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford are doing is in the best security interests of this nation, Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) for introducing it, for and if steps can be taken to pare it back, those steps setting the scene so well, and for speaking for the must be taken. We have been known as security giants, majority of us in this House and in the Chamber today, and I do not like the idea that we are now standing on and the majority of those outside as well. the shoulders of Chinese giants. We have stood alone, I am no tech expert—far from it—yet I have had and can do so again, but it is always best that we stand concerns from the outset about the safety of allowing with our allies. The Chinese may hopefully be strong Huawei into the 5G network. When I find myself at a trading partners post Brexit, but by no stretch of the loss regarding the nuances of an issue, I always turn to imagination can they ever be considered our allies; their those who understand it much better. For that purpose, human rights abuses cannot be ignored. This issue is I have looked at the relations of other nations with concerning, and we must not leave it here. Huawei, and the facts cannot be ignored. My concerns have led me to question the Minister, today and on Ian Paisley (in the Chair): I call Tom Tugendhat. previous occasions. Security and democracy must have priority. Defence 10.21 am of the realm, as the right hon. Member referred to, for Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): Thank this great nation of the United Kingdom of Great you, Mr Paisley, for calling me to speak in this important Britain and Northern Ireland must be protected. Our debate. Many of the security questions have been covered, first duty must always be to our citizens and constituents. so while I do not resile from them I will not cover them They have told me that they share the deep concerns again. We have not yet addressed what will be an that so far all Members bar one have expressed in the important issue going forward, which is the simple fact Chamber today. that just as we write laws in this place to shape the My fears and concerns have not been assuaged since culture of society, we shape the culture of our systems the question I asked the then Minister, the right hon. by writing code. The code that is being written today in and learned Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy places like Shenzhen is going to shape the culture of our Wright), in April last year. I said: communication systems and the way in which they act “Huawei has been banned from the core of 5G, but it is to be together. allowed to operate at the edge. The edge includes masts and This may sound like it is simply a question of noughts antennas, which are also very sensitive. Canada and New Zealand have expressed concern, and Australia and the United States of and ones—a mathematical process that is devoid of America have said there is no relevant distinction between the culture—but that is simply not true. Even supposedly core and the edge of 5G networks. What discussions has the neutral systems like accountancy rely on concepts of Minister had with those four countries, and has their determination ownership, individuality, privacy, collectivity or state had any influence on our decision?”—[Official Report, 25 April interference that are culturally specific. That is as true 2019; Vol. 658, c. 892.] of accountancy today as it was when it was first created, The then Minister’s response was that discussions with several hundred years ago on these islands. The code our Five Eyes partners were ongoing, yet we appear to that is now being written will have the same implications, have dismissed that, while still allowing that there is a so the real decision for us is not just “What are we safety implication of Chinese interference and reliance looking at today in our 5G network, and how much on that technology. Again, I find myself uneasy and influence will it have on the systems that we seek to desirous that, even at this stage, we rethink this massive operate now and in the immediate future?” but “What step. That is the feeling of the majority in the Chamber. cultural norms are we embedding into our society that China is guilty of some of the worst, barbarous, will shape the concepts of liberty and individuality”— evil, surgical human rights abuses against its own citizens. concepts that I thought we held dear? The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland If we are arguing, as many of my right hon. and hon. (Mr Carmichael) and others have referred to the Uyghur Friends have done so successfully, that these islands Muslims, but it is not just them; there are also the have the right to determine their own future and take Christians, the Falun Gong, and many other people. back control of their destiny, it seems odd to decide that 289WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 290WH having just done so, we are going to hand it over to Bob Seely: Does my right hon. and learned Friend Beijing. I fail to understand why government from accept that the diversity argument is one of many Beijing is better than government from Brussels, or why flawed arguments,because Huawei is undermining diversity? cultural norms set in a collectivised state are better than Through Huawei and ZTE, the Chinese state is trying those that arise among democracies with which, at to build up other states’ dependency on it to provide least, we share values. When I hear colleagues on both advanced communications, so by getting Huawei in, we sides of the aisle in the United States, Australia or New are undermining diversity in the market. Zealand speaking clearly about the security implications for all of us, I also think about the foreign policy Jeremy Wright: I agree with my hon. Friend that it is implications. Whatever we think about our security sensible to make sure we do not undermine diversity preparations, if our allies do not trust us, that undermines through our own actions. However, as a matter of the alliance. If our allies do not believe that we can keep principle, taking suppliers out of the system does not their data safe, that undermines the sharing of data, assist diversity. The points he has made are substantially and if they do not think we are going to be reliable, that about security, and I agree that this debate must focus calls the alliance into question. China is already having on that question. Whether we use market caps or bring some success in its geopolitical world, because the game along other suppliers in the market, diversity is a legitimate it is playing—the game of dividing its opponents—is security objective, just as it is a legitimate economic meeting with some success. I am very sad that our objective. However, I am afraid that we do not have the Government are allowing themselves to be the pawn in luxury of inventing a domestic contributor to this market that game. in a short space of time, so we have to deal with the I understand that the Government must take risks in market as it is. certain areas, and that the decisions they must take are There is a good reason why we focus on the security difficult. The Government have to decide whether, if of the system as a whole and not on one supplier. If we Nokia and Ericsson were the only companies in this are worried about China, as it is perfectly right for us space, the collapse of one of those companies would to be, it is worth keeping in mind the fact that many of lead to a monopoly, and they therefore see a requirement the competitor suppliers referred to in this debate use for a third. However, instead of risking a monopoly, Chinese components in their equipment, or assemble they are taking risks with security, which is a mistake. their equipment in China. It is therefore important to recognise China’s potential to intervene. 10.24 am Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): It Tom Tugendhat: Given that we are about to spend is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, £100 billion on a train line, would it not be sensible to Mr Paisley, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the invest some of that money in our own infrastructure if Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain we are so concerned about Chinese suppliers? Duncan Smith) on securing this debate. I will use my four minutes to discuss where I agree with the consensus Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend really should not get that has emerged in this debate, and where I respectfully me started on HS2; we do not have time. disagree. I agree that 5G is hugely important, for the reasons We should not just be worried about Huawei or about that have already been given. Two things follow from China, but about the security of the entire telecoms that: first, security is absolutely paramount in the 5G infrastructure. However, if we are going to talk about network, but secondly,subject to our security requirements Huawei, let us not forget first of all that Huawei is we should have the best equipment possible. This debate already in the system. Sometimes these debates are cannot ignore the fact that a great many people in the conducted as though it were going to come in for the telecoms industry believe that Huawei equipment is not first time, but it is here already, managed differently to simply cheaper than its competitors, but better. It therefore other suppliers. Secondly and most importantly, let us seems to me that if our security requirements can be not disregard the advice of our highly respected intelligence met, it is not logical to entirely exclude Huawei equipment. agencies, which have said that the inclusion of Huawei’s equipment is consistent with our security requirements. This debate has quite sensibly focused on the question I have had the privilege of working with those agencies, of security, but when we are considering the security of as I know many other Members present have. They are the network, it does not seem sensible to focus entirely world class, and it is important that we do not disregard on Huawei: we have to think about the security of the what they say. entire network. These are complex and interdependent networks that must be secure from threats, wherever those threats come from. That is why the telecoms 10.29 am supply chain review that began while I was in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP): the right way to approach this issue, and the general The Government have found themselves between a rock principles that it has set out are sound. I am not going and a hard place, facing a decision between spiralling to run through all of those principles, although my hon. costs and high security. We have serious concerns about Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Ruth Edwards) has establishing such a fundamental part of our digital mentioned some of the telecoms security requirements infrastructure with Chinese-owned technology. Any and we should have. However, it is worth saying that diversity, all our concerns and doubts about the impact it could in terms of the number of suppliers in the system, is in have on the security and autonomy of our data must be itself a security advantage that we should not dispense answered beyond reproach before such a risk is taken with unless we need to. with our vital national infrastructure. To ensure that, 291WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 292WH
[John Nicolson] Ian Paisley (in the Chair): The hon. Member took very little time, which gives considerable time to the the Government should conduct a full independent shadow Minister. I call Chi Onwurah. review and assessment in collaboration with allies in the Five Eyes. 10.33 am Ensuring our grasp on the information and capabilities Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): reliant on 5G technology is pivotal in exploiting the It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, benefits and power that it undoubtedly offers, as well as Mr Paisley. I congratulate the right hon. Member for in protecting ourselves from it. We have heard a lot Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) about the threat of back doors in Huawei hardware and on securing this incredibly important debate. We are on software that would allow it to be controlled remotely opposite sides of the House, but we share a deep from outside the UK. Of course that is a legitimate commitment to British security and technological capability, concern, but the bigger issue is the more systematic which is clearly also shared by the many hon. Members security failings in the software that could be remotely present. exploited. The UK has a proud technological history, from the The 2019 report of the board that supervises the Huawei earliest days of the industrial revolution to the invention Cyber Security Evaluation Centre said that Huawei of the first fibre-optic cable and, of course, the world lacks “basic engineering competence” and brings a wide web. Why, then, at the outset of the fourth industrial “significantly increased risk to UK operators”. revolution, are we in a Huawei hole of our own making? The board could give “only limited assurance” about As an enabling technology, 5G represents much more the ability for risks to be managed. than faster mobile internet speeds. As the web enables Another risk is that equipment providers usually have applications that its inventor Sir Tim Berners-Lee could automated authorised remote access to their hardware never have dreamed of, 5G provides the platform for the to provide support to carry out a managed services technologies that will define the 21st century. contract, with the equipment requiring regular software As I may have mentioned before, I am a chartered security updates and bug fixes. There is a lot of outsourcing electrical engineer and a tech evangelist. I want the United in the sector, including to Huawei, with further potential Kingdom to harness all the benefits that 5G networks for security breaches. can bring, but if the foundations are poorly laid, or not laid at all, the potential for national harm is significant. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I understand After I graduated from Imperial College London, my the concerns raised by the hon. Gentleman and other first job was for a world leader in the then-emerging hon. Members, but given that our intelligence agencies telecommunications sector. I spent eight years with have designed the Government’s approach, that the Nortel designing networking equipment all over the National Security Council has signed off on it and that world and working with many of the other equipment all Ministers going to its briefings have agreed with it, vendors at the time, such as Alcatel, Siemens, Nokia, should we not put more faith in the risk mitigation Ericsson and Motorola. If someone had said to me measures that the Government have announced? that, a couple of decades later, we would be incapable of building a European telecoms network without a Chinese John Nicolson: No, I would not put faith in them, not supplier, I would have been dumbfounded. least because there is little consensus among former As we have heard, Huawei is bound by China’s national heads of intelligence about the issue. intelligence law to support, co-operate and collaborate with national intelligence work. That raises many concerns Bob Seely: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that for the security of our 5G network. I will not repeat point? those raised by many hon. Members, including the hon. Members for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) and for Tonbridge John Nicolson: I will not; I will make progress. and Malling (Tom Tugendhat). The fact that Huawei is The UK has spent, and continues to spend, billions designated by our National Cyber Security Centre as of pounds on the development, maintenance and renewal high risk says it all. It is high risk, so why are we taking of 20th-century defence systems, such as Trident, that a risk with our national security? My hon. Friend the are simply not fit to face the security challenges of the Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) and the modern era. The biggest threats we now face—terrorism, hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) highlighted climate change and, of course, cyber-security—will not the human rights and employment rights abuses with be deterred by multibillion-pound nuclear weapons in which Huawei is linked. the firth of Clyde. I have 10 questions for the Minister. How has the In the meantime, our telecoms infrastructure security industry got itself into a position where our critical has been left weak and exposed by decades of under- national infrastructure is so dependent on one high-risk investment. Countering the threat would require serious vendor? The UK telecoms supply chain review, as investment in, and protection of, our native companies, summarised by the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Ruth which would involve a hard look at China’s enthusiasm Edwards) and the right hon. and learned Member for for the acquisition of small engineering firms. The right Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), was seven hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain months ago. The then Government committed to reduce Duncan Smith) asked who has been asleep at the watch, our reliance on high-risk vendors over the next five to but we all know which Government and which party 10 years. Can the Minister say how that is happening? has been in charge for the last decade. With China We have heard nothing since. The Government also said aiming to monopolise the market, it is not too late for then that they would legislate at the earliest available the Government and the country to wake up. opportunity. Again, we have heard nothing since. 293WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 294WH
With network design, cyber-security specialists Labour also has proposals on the telecommunications will always advise people to assume breach, but the industrial strategy, which has been highlighted by many Government’s approach seems to have designed into it Members, to ensure that we can take a leap forward in breach by a foreign power at a time of unprecedented this critical technological area, including support for geopolitical tension. I have many more questions as new standards and a new catapult, to bring together there is much that we do not know. What percentage of existing centres of excellence to ensure that we can once the UK’scurrently deployed full fibre and mobile networks more be at the forefront of technological innovation. involves a designated high-risk vendor? From what The good news is that, in technology, you are never so proportion of our networks are they to be excluded far behind that you cannot leapfrog existing technology. under the terms of the NCSC advice? The bad news is that it takes investment in strategic If I understand the Government’s position, 5G and vision—a quality that this Government sorely lack. full fibre are critical national infrastructure, but only Huawei is a test of both. parts of them need to be secure. That is a difficult but, I return to my first question. Why are we in this as the hon. Member for Rushcliffe suggested, tenable position and what steps are the Government taking to technological position, but we need to see the measures ensure that it does not happen again, and to eliminate that will mitigate the risks and manage them out of our our dependence on high-risk vendors? The Government network. should start to proactively identify future technological On the international ramifications of the Government’s needs and invest strategically to ensure that they can be decision, as we have heard, the UK is the only member met by a wider range of platform providers. of the global intelligence-sharing network Five Eyes to The Government claim to care about political have chosen to accept Huawei, with the exception of sovereignty—about taking back control from foreign Canada, which is yet to make a decision but is being powers. It is high time that we started caring about advised to block it. All the other members, the US, technological sovereignty too. Australia and New Zealand, have blocked Huawei’s involvement, citing security concerns. Can the Minister Ian Paisley (in the Chair): Before I call the Minister, I tell us why our allies are taking such a different approach? inform him that he has considerable time in which to Does he have a proper and detailed understanding of make his contribution and he can take a number of the impact on our international relationships, as the short interventions, if he so chooses. Any time that he hon. Member for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm leaves at the end, I will give to Sir Iain Duncan Smith McDonald) highlighted? for a wind-up speech. Labour wants to work with the Government on this clear issue of national security. The Government say that the economic cost of barring Huawei would be too 10.43 am great and Mobile UK has estimated that a delay would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, cost £7 billion. If I compare that with the £8.3 billion Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): This has committed by the Government to Brexit preparations, been an important and timely debate. I am glad that my however,it strikes me as a clear case of political priorities— right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford and what priorities they are, when we are at a profound Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) has provided the national security crossroads. Government with an opportunity to clarify some of I hold the National Cyber Security Centre in the their position. highest regard—I thank its representatives for meeting As he knows, the Government’s first priority is to me yesterday—but I ask the Minister to address a protect our citizens and their interests. That means that concern. The supply chain review report spoke of statutory the security of our telecoms and critical national guidance, but so far we have only had blogs. It is good infrastructure is of paramount importance. That is why to be responsive and we know that President Trump’s we undertook the telecoms supply chain review—to tweets have some force of law in America. Is the same allow us to make hard-headed, evidence-based decisions. true of these blogs? Will Ofcom be enforcing them? The UK is a global leader in cyber-security. Our The supply chain review report also promised telecoms world-class security agencies have set out their security security requirements, which would set a new bar for analysis of the telecoms sector in a level of public detail security and be enforced by Ofcom. The hon. Member unmatched anywhere in the world. for Rushcliffe seemed to imply that those requirements are available, but I have not seen them. Will the Minister It is because of the need to manage the risks to tell me whether they are available, how they are to be national security that we have made the decisions that enforced and with what resources, for both Ofcom and we have on high-risk vendors, concluding that there the Huawei cyber-security observance centre? needs to be strong restrictions on their presence in the network. It is because we need to improve the security Finally,consolidation and competition from the Chinese of the network overall that we need a new security subsidised sector means that many of the vendors and framework for telecoms. operators in the telecoms sector have finances that do not look exactly sustainable or stable. What is the Minister Over time, our intention is to reduce our reliance on doing to assess the financial security of the sector? high-risk vendors, as market diversification takes place. As the Government shilly-shallies over national security, We want to get to a position where we do not have to we will be tabling amendments to the Telecommunications use a high-risk vendor in our telecoms network at all. Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill currently going through Parliament that will seek to reduce our dependence Tom Tugendhat: Will the Minister give way? on high-risk vendors. I hope I will have the support of the Minister and other Members in this Chamber. Bob Seely: Will the Minister give way? 295WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 296WH
Matt Warman: In a moment. Although it is driven by Put simply, in the view of the most expert security, our decision making reflects the reality of the telecommunications specialists in the world, as others UK network and the global supply chain marketplace, have said in the debate, a limited amount of carefully and that is why diversification is key. I give way to the controlled hardware from China does not compromise Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee. our national security. This Government will continue to do all it can to put the experts who hold that view, both Tom Tugendhat: Can I be very clear on what the private and public sector, at the disposal of this House. Minister said? He is saying that the Government’s aim is I am grateful to all those hon. Members who have taken to reduce to zero high-risk vendors, of which Huawei is up the opportunities for such briefings and I wish they one. were greater in number. The Government are confident that we are putting the nation’s interests first. Matt Warman: As I say, we want to get to a position where we do not have to use a high-risk vendor in our Mr David Davis: I say to the Minister that a mixture telecoms network. of good and bad is not diversity. That is the first thing. He says that he puts the security of the nation first. In pursuit of that, the Government have claimed that there Sir Iain Duncan Smith: This is a very important is no back door to Huawei hardware. The Americans point. I want to know, and I think the rest of the House assert differently. The Germans agree with them. Other would like to know, whether it is now Government policy countries agree with them. He served on the Bill Committee to drive to 0% involvement by Huawei and other non-secure for the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. I remind him of vendors. Is that now the policy—not just to 35%? sections 252 and 253, which give us the right to have a back door. How can we have a back door, when the Matt Warman: Our aim is not to be reliant on high-risk hardware installer,the hardware supplier and the hardware vendors at all. I appreciate that my right hon. Friend administrator does not? would like me to set out a timetable for that, but I cannot do that today. Matt Warman: My right hon. Friend highlights the There are major market problems we need to address need for oversight, which I will come on to talk about in and they are common to all western nations. We have to a minute. remain hard-headed and evidence-based. We want to Telecoms networks are complex. They rely on global ensure that, as new technologies develop, we have a supply chains, where some limited measure of vulnerability vibrant and diverse ecosystem of suppliers that we can is inevitable. The critical security question that we have rely on. The decisions we have made in this area are the to ask ourselves is how we mitigate such vulnerabilities right ones because they are based on hard evidence. and stop them damaging the British people and our economy. Bob Seely: We are not getting at the Minister, who we hold in high regard, but at the decision that he is, Jamie Stone: The Minister has repeatedly said that unfortunately, having to defend. He is now talking the security of our country is paramount. Surely if we about the economics. The problem is that because Huawei queer our pitch with Australia and New Zealand, that is so bankrolled by the Chinese state, it can simply militates against looking after the security of this country. undercut other providers. Even if Fujitsu and Samsung— not to mention UK companies—want to come into the Matt Warman: I will come to the international picture market, so that there is a diverse, multiplayer, western later, if I get the chance. market in 5G, it is very difficult to get to that because Huawei will always undercut, and telcos are heavily indebted and therefore will do Huawei’s bidding. That is Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): The a structural problem. Minister keeps talking about the security of the nation, but we know that many UK companies working in the areas of photonics and quantum are concerned about Matt Warman: I will come on to what we will do to national security. They want to scale up but cannot get try to promote market diversification in a moment. funding from his Government, and they therefore look Suffice it to say, we do not and will never put anything to countries such as China in order to expand—another other than national security at the very top of our area where this Government are failing. agenda on this issue. Matt Warman: The hon. Member raises a point that I Mr Carmichael: I want to clarify a very simple point. would be happy to cover in another debate, but the The moving to 0% of high-risk vendors seems good Government and I share some of her concerns. common sense to me. Is the Minister telling the Chamber that Huawei is classified by this Government as a high-risk It is because of our security and intelligence agencies vendor? that we have a comprehensive understanding of the threats and risks of 5G, and I would like to remind right hon. and hon. Members—not that I need to—that our Matt Warman: Yes. Huawei and ZTE are both high-risk agencies are the envy of the world. They work every day vendors, as we have said previously. to safeguard our national security and put the UK’s interests at the heart of everything we do. The National Bob Seely: Will the Minister give way? Cyber Security Centre has provided expert technical and security advice on 5G. They are experts in the Matt Warman: I fear making no progress at all if I technical changes that will take place in the network keep giving way. and in the risks we currently face from the presence of 297WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 Huawei and 5G 298WH high-risk vendors’ equipment in our networks and those We understand the threat from China and are robust of many of our allies. They are experts in security, with it when our interests are challenged. Wewill continue including the national security threats that we face to publicly call out malicious cyber-activity, and the today. Our unique shared understanding of security decision to categorise Huawei as a high-risk vendor threats and risks, together with that of the technical took into consideration the potential links between characteristics of the network, means that the NCSC is Chinese companies and the Chinese state, including the in the best possible position to advise on the cyber-security fact that Chinese companies are subject to China’s of the UK’s telecoms national infrastructure. national intelligence law. The UK has also been vocal in drawing attention to the systematic human rights violations Mr Paterson: The Minister has so nearly got the against Uyghur Muslims and other ethnic minorities in Government to the right position. He has admitted that China. The Government have set out our expectations Huawei is a high risk and that it is the Government’s of businesses in the UK national action plan on business intention to get to no high-risk vendors. He has admitted and human rights. that he listens to our allies, who are overwhelmingly The telecoms supply chain review, which was laid against Huawei’sinvolvement in the 5G network. Australia, before the House in July 2019, underlined the range and France and the United States have all said that they nature of the risks, highlighting the risks of dependence have taken advice. We know that Korea has gone for an on one vendor, faults or vulnerabilities in network alternative supplier. Why can the Minister not follow equivalence equipment, the back-door threat, and vendors’ the logic of what he is saying and tell us, “Yes, we are administrative access. We need to be alive to the totality going to get out of Huawei over a fixed period of time of the risks that the telecoms network faces today and and work closely with our Five Eyes allies.”? He is so will face in the future. High-risk vendors are part of nearly saying the right thing, but he has a ghastly brief that security risk assessment, but they are not the sole because the Government have got themselves into a factor. mess. They have inherited a mess from their predecessors. I want to address some of the myths about how the Why can he not be honest and say, “We want to get to network will develop. It is true that technical characteristics zero, and that is the safe place to go to.”? of 5G create a greater surface area for potential attacks, but it will still be possible to distinguish different parts Matt Warman: I hope my right hon. Friend takes of the network. As my hon. Friend the Member for significant comfort from what I have said: we want to Rushcliffe (Ruth Edwards) said, what matters are the get to a position where we are not reliant at all on critical functions within the network. We need to ensure high-risk vendors. that critical functions, wherever they are, have appropriate security. We have confidence in the independent technical assessment from our security experts and, importantly, Tom Tugendhat: Will the Minister give way? the telecommunications industry has confidence in those assessments, too. That is why we have been in a position Matt Warman: I will come to the issue of the network’s to publish as much of our security assessment as we core and edge, which will answer some of the questions have done. As a result, we have the most detailed study that Members want to ask. of what is needed to protect 5G networks anywhere in the world. Weare not naive about Huawei or its relationship Ian Levy, the technical director of the National Cyber with the Chinese state. Since Huawei has entered the Security Centre, set out in a recent blog post that the UK network, it has been carefully managed. Through notion that there is no distinction between the core and the cyber-security evaluation centre and the oversight the edge cannot be true. He says that, with 5G networks, board, we have the greatest access to, and insight on, “you need lots of smaller basestations as well as big ones, and the Huawei equipment anywhere in the world. small ones will be on lampposts, bus shelters and other places that aren’t secure from physical interference by bad guys. So, if your network design means that you need to run really sensitive Bob Seely: I am grateful to the Minister for giving functions processing really sensitive data (i.e. core functions) on way yet again. an edge access device on top of a bus stop, your choice of vendor is the least of your worries and you probably shouldn’t be Does he understand that many of us take issue with designing critical national infrastructure. The international standards what he has just said? First, figures from the security that define what a 5G network actually is allow you to do all sorts world who have publicly spoken up, such as Richard of things, and some of those things could lead to security or Dearlove, are hostile to what the Minister says. There is operational risks that can’t be mitigated. That doesn’t mean you a sense that the Government have given our security have to do them.” agencies a fait accompli, because almost all our allies’ We in this country will not do such things. cyber-security agencies take a diametrically opposed view to the one that he presents. Secondly, will he Several hon. Members rose— acknowledge that the Banbury Cell now has very serious concerns about Huawei? Matt Warman: I will give way briefly to the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Matt Warman: As I said, we are introducing the new regime because of some of the concerns that my hon. Tom Tugendhat: Does the Minister recognise that it Friend addresses. I reiterate the Government’s offer to was not Tim Berners-Lee, but Rod Stewart, who foresaw put at the disposal of any Member of the House as the amazing power of the internet? It is not just the many experts from the public and private sectors that technical experts, but the imagination of people who we can, so that colleagues can be in touch with the latest will build on their technical skills, that will determine thinking on this issue. where the risks really lie. 299WH Huawei and 5G 4 MARCH 2020 300WH
Matt Warman: My hon. Friend knows that we have Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust) some of the most imaginative experts working for us in our agencies, which is why we are establishing one of the strongest regimes for telecoms security in the world—a 11 am regime that will raise standards across the UK’s telecoms Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): I beg operators and the vendors that supply them. At the to move, heart of the new regime, the NCSC’s new telecoms That this House has considered positions of trust and sports security requirements guidance will provide clarity to coaches. industry on what is expected of network security, and it It is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your will raise the height of the security by including the chairmanship, Mr Paisley. In November 2016, former supply chain management. The Government will legislate Crewe Alexandra player Andy Woodward waived his at the earliest opportunity to introduce the new anonymity to become the first player to publicly reveal comprehensive telecoms security regime and new statutory that he was sexually abused as a child by former coach telecoms security requirements, which are to be overseen Barry Bennell. Woodward’s bravery led to others coming by both Ofcom and the Government. forward to speak about their experiences of shocking abuse. Several hon. Members rose— Within a few days, the Football Association and the Matt Warman: I will not take any more interventions. National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children had set up a hotline dedicated to helping footballers We expect that the new regime will include new who had experienced historical sexual abuse. In the first obligations on telecoms operators to comply with telecoms week, the hotline received nearly 900 calls. Football was security requirements, and we are considering whether in the middle of a major safeguarding scandal, but the Ofcom requires further power to ensure that, as we have problem was not limited to football. Athletes from said before, high-risk vendors will be excluded from different sports spoke out about their experiences of security-critical network functions, limited to a minority historical sexual abuse at the hands of coercive coaches presence of up to 35% in other network functions, and or managers who were intent on getting what they be subjected to tight restrictions. wanted by using—or rather, abusing—their position of Those controls are not without cost. BT has already trust. identified a £500 million cost to it alone, and we did not I was Sports Minister at that time, and I remember take these decisions lightly. We will legislate at the feeling an element of pride in how sport reacted to earliest opportunity, and that legislation will be important those horrific stories. The FA did what it had to do for in enabling the Government to manage the risks to the football and the same was done for other sports. Within network and enforce conclusions on high-risk vendors. a relatively short time, sport as a whole, while recognising However, it also needs to be flexible enough to allow us that many of the incidents in the press were historical to continue to manage the risks as they evolve; as I have and took place before much of our child protection described, we will manage them over time. I want to legislation was in place, instigated internal changes to reassure Members that the Government share the ambition safeguarding practices to ensure that procedures were that our long-term goal is to reduce our reliance on in place to maximise protection against abuse in sport. high-risk vendors, and a timetable must be contingent on diversification in the market. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the Successive western Governments have failed to ensure hon. Lady on securing the debate. I took part in a 2018 that there is effective competition in the market, and debate on safeguarding children in sport when she was we are faced with a very narrow choice of suppliers Sports Minister, and I was very thankful for all that she for these technologies. Through a strategy of market said in reply to the questions that were raised, as well as diversification, we will seek to attract global vendors for the role that she played. I am here again to support and to ensure there are new entrants into the supply her. Does she agree that in this place we have talked for chain, and we will promote the adoption of open, far too long about this issue? We now need to act to interoperable standards. We are already in talks with ensure that the trust of no more children is abused Samsung, and our 5G test beds and trials programmes through this loophole. do not use high-risk vendors. We need to work quickly with like-minded countries to develop a diversification Tracey Crouch: I remember the debate that the hon. strategy. Gentleman mentions and to which I responded. I entirely The debate on 5G security is global, and our Five agree that there has been far too much talk, which is Eyes network and other partner relationships are incredibly why I secured this debate. important. We will continue to work closely with them, I will return to what sport was doing in 2016 and and we know they understand the decision that we have early 2017 to maximise protections against abuse in taken. I conclude by saying simply that national security sport. As well as football, other sports—with support will always be at the top of our priorities and we will from Sport England and the NSPCC child protection in work to move towards no involvement of high-risk sport unit—also made positive changes in a relatively vendors. short time to the way that they keep their participants Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). safe. They rightly took responsibility and took it seriously. They asked for just one thing from the Government, which was to extend the positions of trust legislation to include sports coaches. That was a perfectly reasonable request—one with which the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport agreed—but the Government 301WH Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust)4 MARCH 2020 Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust) 302WH have failed to deliver on that ask and, as a result, we through the cracks. Does the hon. Lady agree that the have potentially put other youngsters at risk from abusive positions of trust legislation needs to be extended to coaches. cover those areas as well? Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, it is illegal for certain professions, such as teachers, to engage in sexual Tracey Crouch: I completely agree; DBS checks should activity with a 16 or 17-year-old, as they are considered not be the be-all and end-all. The legislation adds an a person in a position of trust. The Act proscribes a extra level of safeguarding. limited number of roles but does not extend into a When I was dealing with the issue as Sports Minister, range of non-statutory settings that may be subject to it was claimed that if the legislation was extended to far less scrutiny than those covered by the Act. sports coaches, it would also need to be extended to music teachers, private tutors or, as my hon. Friend the Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): I Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) has called congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. for, driving instructors. My response, as the daughter of I declare an interest as both a teacher and a gymnastics a social worker who spent her life dealing with child coach. The relationships that coaches of gymnastics and sexual abuse, is, “Yes it absolutely should be.” I fail to other sports develop with athletes can, without a shadow fully understand why it should not. of a doubt, be far deeper than those of other teachers, because of the amount of time spent in their company, Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): My hon. Friend particularly with elite athletes. We have to get this is making exactly the right case. I have experience of a absolutely right to protect children. situation in which a driving instructor had clearly groomed one of my constituents, as well as another case, which is well known to the NSPCC, in which somebody was Tracey Crouch: As somebody who coached in football groomed for a very long time by a sports coach who for a very long time, I understand where the hon. Lady continues to offer his services. is coming from. I completely agree that the relationships that coaches build with the people in their care as they In truth, we know from recent exposures that the develop in their sports journey are incredibly important. problem is not limited to the UK—it happens around I vividly remember an email that I received from somebody the world—and it is time this country set an example by after the abuse stories came to light. They were also a changing the law. Does my hon. Friend agree that, with teacher, but they had not realised that the positions of a new Justice Minister—my constituency neighbour trust legislation, under which they operated every day in and hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Alex their professional life as a teacher, did not extend to Chalk)—that would be a great step forward? times when they independently stood at the side of a football pitch as a coach. Tracey Crouch: I agree, and I hope that the Minister is listening and will take positive action. My hon. Friend Our colleague, the hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah has done amazing work to highlight the issues with Champion), has done some excellent work on this matter. driving instructors and should be congratulated on The report from the all-party parliamentary group on that. Concerns about the scope of the proscribed list is safeguarding in faith settings should be required reading a poor reason to avoid taking a policy position and for anyone who cares about the issue. changing the positions of trust provisions. We should perhaps reflect briefly on why we have that Anyone in a position to influence the direction of particular section of legislation in the 2003 Act. People another person’s journey through life—meaning that a who work in schools, as carers or as youth workers, will power balance rests with them—should not be able to have gone through the required disclosure and barring abuse that position via a sexual relationship. Someone’s service checks. Although some might fall through the place in the team or time on the pitch, or the competitions cracks, ultimately, people who pose a known risk to in which they are entered, should not be vulnerable to children or vulnerable adults will not, if the system another person’s physical or emotional demands. works properly, be allowed to work in that sector. The legislation adds an extra layer of safeguarding to prevent The legislation can be easily amended, either by those in positions of trust from forming relationships adding to the list or removing it altogether. The Ministry with children who, although they are over the age of asked for evidence of why change was required and, consent, are not considered legal adults and could be although evidence was provided, nothing has happened. abused given the nature of the power balance. Earlier this year, The Guardian reported that a freedom of information request had found that between 2014 I have spent a significant amount of my life coaching, and 2018, there were 653 cases in which adults who so I can tell the Minister that I concur with sports and could be regarded as being in a position of trust had the NSPCC that in sport especially, but not exclusively, had a sexual relationship with a 16 or 17-year-old. Of the elite pathway is a vulnerable area. In my view, the the 495 cases in which the adult’s role was recorded, the Ministry of Justice should have acted positively and majority were in sport, and the data showed that such straightaway to close as soon as possible the loophole in incidents had increased. the 2003 Act. Sport is doing what it can to prevent dangerous people from working with children and young adults. It Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): has enhanced its safeguarding procedures, as part of Some say that because a coach has to have a DBS the implementation of my sports governance code, and check, the positions of trust legislation is not necessary. many use enhanced DBS checks. While the loophole Assistant coaches, however,who are supervised by coaches, exists, however, that in the eyes of the law it is deemed do not need to undergo DBS checks and could fall okay to have sex with someone over the age of 16 in 303WH Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust)4 MARCH 2020 Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust) 304WH
[Tracey Crouch] dependency on the adult involved, often combined with an element of vulnerability of the young person. The your trust in sport, coercive and abusive behaviour offences are directed at those who are employed to look will continue and the lives of many more youngsters after young people under the age of 18, such as those will be ruined. providing care for a young person in a residential care When I was a Minister, with the then Home Office home, a hospital or an educational institution. That and Justice Ministers, we agreed that that change was particularly adverts to the fact that the state has a role essential, so the inexplicable delay in implementing that in the child’s development or care. ministerial direction is shameful. I understand that the As my hon. Friend made crystal clear, those offences MOJ is exploring non-legislative solutions but, frankly, do not cover all positions in which a person might have that can never solve what is fundamentally a legal contact with, or a supervisory role of, a young person problem. It would be a shocking downgrading of the aged under 18. That was a deliberate decision by the Department’s responsibilities. Guidance is not the law, Government of the day. In preparation for this debate, I in that sense. looked up some of the relevant debates. The issue of I appreciate that the Minister was not in the hot seat scope was raised in the other place by Baroness Blatch, when officials were finding reasons why not to do that a Conservative, on 13 February 2003. She noted that previously, but he is now. As the hon. Member for she was “disappointed” that provision had not been Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, now is the time for no made in the Bill to encompass those being supervised as more dither, no more delay. We have a duty to act. This scouts or in youth centres. Interestingly, when responding legislative loophole needs a legislative solution, and it to her that same day, Lord Falconer said: needs to be done now. “I understand the noble Baroness’s argument, but a line has to be drawn somewhere and we think that is the right place”.—[Official 11.11 am Report, House of Lords, 13 February 2003; Vol. 644, c. 878.] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice My sense is that that judgment may well be wrong (Alex Chalk): It is a pleasure to serve under your but, in fairness to the noble lord, it is not a straightforward chairmanship, Mr Paisley. one to make. What is at stake here is a need to balance I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham the legal right, as prescribed by Parliament, for young and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) for securing this important persons aged 16 and over to consent to sexual activity, debate and for her distinguished service as a Minister. with the proper desire to protect vulnerable young Her speech was absolutely in the spirit of that distinguished people from manipulation. service. Another complicating feature is the evolving case law As my hon. Friend indicated, I have been in post for in the area. In certain situations, the criminal division of only a few short weeks, but it is already crystal clear to the Court of Appeal has already been clear that supposed me that this is an extremely important issue which consent may be vitiated or even negated, thereby creating requires a clear, considered and decisive response. The a criminal offence in any event. To put that in plain Government have been reviewing the law in this area. I English and to give an example, in the case of McNally, have said that we should urgently consider all options, deception by a defendant as to her sex—she falsely including legislative change, and must be in a position claimed she was a man—was held to vitiate the victim’s to announce next steps by the end of May. consent to intercourse. Turning to some basic principles, protecting children That is important because, as the Crown Prosecution and young people from the scourge of sexual abuse and Service now indicates in its charging decisions, in certain exploitation is a top priority for this Government. Ensuring circumstances that ruling could apply where perpetrators that the law is effective in providing that protection is were in a position of power in which they could abuse not just our priority, but our duty. As most stakeholders their trust over a victim. If we look at the CPS charging acknowledge, however, this area is not without decision—in other words, when making a decision about complexity—that is not a reason not to tackle it, but we whether there truly was consent in a relationship—one need to advert to it. I will set out some of the issues and of the matters that has to be considered is: explain why charting the way ahead requires careful thought. “Where the suspect was in a position of power where they could abuse their trust, especially because of their position or It is worth taking a moment to summarise the state of status—e.g. a family member, teacher, religious leader, employer, the existing law. In a short debate, that can only be a gang member, carer, doctor”. brief overview. As we know, sexual activity with a child The point is that it is no longer necessarily automatically under 16 is of course always a serious criminal offence, good enough for the defendant to say, “Look, she regardless of consent, and non-consensual activity is a consented”, if in fact that will was suborned in some crime regardless of the age of the victim or the relationship way. That might well be a very proper reason why the between the victim and perpetrator. CPS could conclude that there had been no consent. Alongside those two offences, to turn to positions of trust, the Sexual Offences Act 2003 created a number of offences that specifically target any sexual activity between Richard Graham: On that point, does the list of a 16 or 17-year-old young person and people who hold categories for the CPS to consider include or exclude—or a defined “position of trust” in respect of that young is it neutral on—the issue of sports coaches, music person, even if such activity is consensual, as my hon. teachers and driving instructors, for example? Friend indicated. Those offences were designed to build on the general Alex Chalk: My hon. Friend makes a characteristically child sex offences in the 2003 Act, and are defined to pertinent point. That is a non-exhaustive list, which is target situations in which the young person has considerable an important consideration to bear in mind. The proper 305WH Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust)4 MARCH 2020 Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust) 306WH points that he made are not lost completely on some throughout the process. On behalf of the MOJ, I am charging prosecutors, and that is an important part of extremely grateful to those who have given of their time the context. for that important process. A number of themes and suggestions emerged during Tracey Crouch: If that is the case, let us scrap section 21. the review, and it is right to note that many were Then there would be no prescribed list, and a definition non-legislative in nature. They included the better provision of “position of trust”, which the CPS is clearly working of education, the consideration of the effectiveness of on, could include sports coaches, driving instructors the DBS system in practice, raising awareness and and music teachers. understanding of what grooming and genuine consent really look like, and the measures needed to protect Alex Chalk: An interesting balance has to be struck. young people from this type of abusive behaviour. On the one hand, this place properly might want to Many measures can be taken alongside any potential prescribe where that happens, allowing no discretion for changes to criminal law, which I am not ruling out at the CPS, but on the other hand, there may be a relevant all—we will look at them very carefully. It is important public policy interest in saying to prosecutors that in to note that they deserve careful consideration. other cases there is wider discretion. I have already made the point that in 2003 Parliament decided to draw Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op): As a former a distinction that appears to focus on circumstances in national coach for Squash Wales—I notice that squash which the state has a particular role in caring for the was not on the Minister’s list—part of my role was to individual. That is something to be considered. hold coaching courses and increase the number of coaches. There are clear guidelines in squash that coaches cannot In 2019 the Government, recognising the concerns form any sort of relationship with a person under their powerfully and properly expressed by my hon. Friend care. I do not think that is good enough. If I could say the Member for Chatham and Aylesford, began a review to those coaches that it is against the law to form a of the law on such abuses of positions of trust. relationship, it is clear cut and definitive. That should be Notwithstanding the narrow focus of this debate—on the ruling. sports coaches—concerns about scope range far wider, as indicated by my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham). That is why Alex Chalk: That is precisely the matter that we have the review also took account of the IICSA report— to grapple with. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for independent inquiry into child sexual abuse—on the expressing her point. Anglican Church, which focused on the diocese of Returning, for completeness, to the exhaustive process Chichester and the response to allegations against Peter of review, most stakeholders that the MOJ heard from Ball, a former bishop who in 2015 pleaded guilty to a felt that a change in the law was required. Most also series of sex offences. Recommendation 3 of that report agreed that any change or reform of the existing laws stated: raised difficult and complicated issues. Some expressed “The government should amend Section 21 of the Sexual concern that drafting the law too narrowly, or perhaps Offences Act 2003 so as to include clergy within the definition of simply listing roles or jobs considered as a position of a position of trust. This would criminalise under s16–s20 sexual trust, risked creating loopholes or definitions that could activity between clergy and a person aged 16–18, over whom they be easily exploited or circumvented by abusers. Equally, exercise pastoral authority, involving the abuse of a position of others raised the point that any broad or wide-sweeping trust.” new definition could raise the age of consent by stealth. Other settings might conceivably be relevant, such as If we do not get this right, it is not difficult to think of youth clubs and scouts—as Baroness Blatch pointed hard cases that would risk undermining confidence in out in 2003—and drama groups, choirs, Army cadets the criminal justice system. One could imagine, as was and learner drivers, whom my hon. Friend the Member imagined specifically by Lord Falconer in the 2003 for Gloucester has done such a good job of drawing to debate, a consensual relationship between a 19-year-old the attention of the House. coach and a 17-year-old footballer where no abuse of Ministry of Justice officials have engaged with a wide power or trust had taken place, and with no suggestion range of stakeholders across youth and criminal justice of any sort of bargain whereby sexual activity was sectors, including, in the area of faith and religion, the traded for, say, team selection. In such circumstances, Anglican dioceses of Chichester and Lincoln, the Board there might be proper public concern about criminalising of Deputies of British Jews, Gardens of Peace, the that coach. Let us be clear: he or she would be at risk of Hindu Council UK, Marriage Care, the Sikh Council conviction, punishment and disgrace,alongside a conviction UK and St Philip’s Centre. In the sporting sector, the that would remain on the police national computer for review team has heard from British Canoeing, British life. He or she may well be subject to stringent notification Fencing, British Gymnastics, the Football Association, requirements. His or her life would be, to a large extent, the Lawn Tennis Association, the Royal Yachting ruined. Association, the Rugby Football League, the Rugby With that in mind, the Government are considering Football Union, Sport England and Swim England—I all options, including legislative change, and they are could go on. doing so with pace and care. As noted already, I have A huge number of people have been consulted on this asked that that work be prioritised, and I will be in a important issue. Officials have gone beyond those two position to announce next steps before the end of May. areas to speak to youth organisations, including the This debate has offered a valuable contribution to the National Citizen Service, the National Youth Agency, evaluation of these important issues. They are important the Scouts and Volunteer Police Cadets. Those discussions because safeguarding young people in all situations, not were candid and wide ranging, and views were shared just those limited to sport, is essential. 307WH Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust) 4 MARCH 2020 308WH
Tracey Crouch: Before the Minister concludes, will he Asylum Decisions (Support for Refugees) give two guarantees? First, will he meet the NSPCC, which is asking not for guidance but for the legislative loophole to be closed? It is the country’s largest child [SIR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] protection charity and it ought to be listened to with respect for the campaign that it has run for a long time. Secondly, will he listen to some audio of former athletes 2.30 pm who were abused or were in coercive relationships with Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): I beg to their coaches? Once he has listened to their stories and move, the likes of Sport England and the Child Protection in That this House has considered support for refugees after Sport Unit, perhaps he will come to a different conclusion receiving an asylum decision. and take a different path. The asylum process is anxiety-inducing and arduous, but for many the intense relief of being granted refugee Alex Chalk: Yes, of course I will be delighted to meet status by the UK Government is only momentary. For the NSPCC. Secondly, if my hon. Friend wants to send new refugees—people who, let us remember, have escaped me footage to listen to, I will gladly listen to it. My door conflict and persecution—that is often just the beginning remains entirely open if she would like to take up these of another nightmare. That is caused by the so-called matters further with me. move-on period—the period after which the support I invite my hon. Friend not to presuppose what road they have been receiving from the Home Office will be the Ministry or I am on. In the short period that I have terminated—which causes unnecessary problems and been seized of this matter, I have recognised its urgency barriers to integration. I aim to lay out how those could and pressing nature. I have, I hope, properly adverted to be solved. the fact that there are complexities that needs to be I thank Seb Klier at the Refugee Council and Jon ironed out. The singular injustice to any victims would Featonby at the British Red Cross for their regular be that, in a legitimate attempt to improve safeguarding, detailed briefings and for nudging me regularly to table we undermine public confidence in it. That is why we questions and seek debates such as this one. I pay have got to get this right—because, ultimately,safeguarding tribute to them individually, and to the many individuals young people will remain a relentless focus of this and community organisations in my constituency who Government. do so much to welcome refugees and asylum seekers, to Question put and agreed to. solve some of the problems I will explore, and to remove barriers. 11.25 am Every week, the Red Cross in Bristol works with at Sitting suspended. least one new destitute refugee. Let us remember that “refugee” means a person who has received their status. I thank the Red Cross for that, but why is that happening? First, the move-on period is 28 days. In that time, a refugee must leave Home Office accommodation, move from asylum support to benefits or a job, obtain a national insurance number in order to do so, open a bank account, receive a biometric residence permit and find somewhere to live. I am in a good job, but I have to say that I would struggle with that. I think most of us would struggle. To compound all that, refugees are often already traumatised and sometimes—although not always— struggle with English. Some are very isolated, and some are mentally unwell, either as the result of the initial trauma or, often, because of the complex and prolonged asylum process, during which they have not been able to work and have had little access to English classes. Often, they will have been confined by extreme poverty, living off just £37.75 per week. Then, suddenly, in the words of a refugee supported by Bristol Refugee Rights in my constituency, “it is compulsory today to do everything that was forbidden yesterday”. Back in 2014, the Red Cross became increasingly concerned about the number of destitute and new refugees requiring emergency care, partly as a result of that problem. It recommended extending the 28-day move-on period; we have been warned about this for many years. In 2017, I and colleagues in the Chamber launched the “Refugees welcome?” report, which was produced by the all-party parliamentary group on refugees following our inquiry the previous year. Among our many findings was a recommendation that the move-on period should 309WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 310WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) be extended to 56 days. Thankfully, the Government someone’s asylum is over and they are granted refugee took up some of our recommendations—I am grateful status. As I said, I have a reasonably good job and I may to them for that—but, unfortunately, not that one. be able to manage for seven days, but it would be a The same year, the Refugee Council published struggle. People are suddenly put in that position, with its report “Refugees without refuge”. None of the no money, perhaps no relatives to turn to—whereas I 54 respondents to its survey had secured accommodation would have that—and probably no one else to call on. within the 28-day move-on period. In 2018, the British Those seven crucial days can be seven days without Red Cross published its report “Still an ordeal”. The food. 26 refugees it surveyed had been left without food and In some instances, the delay in receiving benefits may shelter after receiving their status. There is not just an be much longer. Mariam from Women for Refugee unacceptable high risk of extreme poverty; the move-on Women gave me permission to quote her. She said: period creates inevitable destitution. “The asylum support stopped in January, but my benefits Just last month, Women for Refugee Women found didn’t start for nine months. I had no money, I was lucky to have a that women left destitute are vulnerable to abuse and solicitor who gave me some cash. I also relied on charities for exploitation. That is a further consequence of the move-on food. Being destitute after getting asylum isn’t something I had expected.” period. A third of the women interviewed were forced to stay in unwanted and abusive relationships. I thank I know that my colleagues in the Chamber have come Women for Refugee Women for its extraordinary hard across that too. A cash grant—just once, upon receipt work, but I am saddened by its findings. of status—would help so much. That is something else I would like the Minister to consider. Charities such as Refugees, refugee organisations, local authorities, health Aid Box Convoy in my constituency do wonderful work organisations and us MPs—including Government finding things such as cookers, clothes, bedding and Members—all know that the move-on period is failing nappies—we probably all have charities like that in our to support refugees. My primary request is for the constituencies—but one small cash grant could make Minister to ask his colleagues to extend it from 28 to such a difference. 56 days. A 56-day move-on period would also align with the Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I congratulate time local authorities are given to work with house- my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on the holds at risk of homelessness under the Homelessness exceptional work she does in Parliament for refugees Reduction Act 2017. That is another example of the and asylum seekers. She is right to highlight the need for cross-departmental work that my hon. Friend the Member an extended move-on period, but does she not agree for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) called for. The that the circumstances she describes show that we need Government could also encourage the establishment of a cross-Government approach, involving not just the a private rented sector scheme for refugees, to recognise Home Office but the Department for Work and Pensions, not just the general problems that most people might the Department of Health and Social Care,the Department face when suddenly plunged into the private rented for Education and the Ministry of Housing, Communities sector, but the specific barriers faced by refugees. and Local Government? They must all come together to Those changes might give new refugees the ability to meet the needs of this vulnerable group. move on rather than, as one refugee in Bristol described it to me, running from “pillar to post”. The complications Thangam Debbonaire: I thank my hon. Friend for of the system are compounded by a lack of Government that intervention. She, too, does an enormous amount funding and organisational capacity. Support agencies on refugee policy, as do many colleagues in the Chamber. are often open only part time, and advice agencies are She is absolutely right that we need a cross-departmental often full. During such a critical time, losing a week approach. Funnily enough, that was recommended in waiting to speak to the right person could make all the our report three years ago. Actually, a former Tory difference between someone being destitute and not. MP—I cannot remember his name, but it will come That is the situation if there are minimal complications. to me—recommended to his Government not only that If there is an error in someone’s biometric residence there should be a cross-departmental approach but permit, which is their formal identification—even if that there should be a Minister for refugees to help there is an incorrect spelling, which happens—their co-ordinate it. 28 days are not automatically restarted. That is another The Home Office recently took some steps to provide really simple and, I would argue, cost-free change that more support for refugees. I welcome that, but their the Minister could agree to: if a mistake is made by a benefit is limited without a longer move-on period. The Government agency, the refugee should not have to pay London School of Economics and the British Red the price, and the 28 days should be automatically Cross found that extending it to 56 days could save up restarted. to £7 million of taxpayers’ money each year. Of course, As an example, K is a new refugee in Bristol. She fled the consequences of destitution are extra costs to the both sectarian violence and domestic violence with her public purse due to homelessness and impacts on health 15-year-old child. She was granted status—she is here and employability. legally—on 6 September 2019, but she contacted the What is the justification for 56 days? First, since Red Cross in Bristol shortly afterwards as there was a refugees mostly are not allowed to work while waiting spelling mistake on her biometric residence permit. She for an asylum decision, most of them will need, at least failed to receive her updated permit by 7 October and initially, to apply for universal credit. There is the first she was at risk of homelessness. At that point, she met problem: clearly, the inbuilt 35-day minimum wait before the homelessness prevention team at Bristol City Council, the first day of universal credit is incompatible, by seven but without identification she was unable to open a crucial days, with the current move-on period after bank account. The earliest she could receive an advance 311WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 312WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) [Thangam Debbonaire] that they have to take dangerous journeys because they have no alternative, having been cramped in a refugee universal credit payment, intended to cope with such camp among millions of people in countries such as gaps, was 30 October, 54 days after receiving her refugee Lebanon, Greece or Turkey.They feel absolutely desperate, status. Hon. Members can see where I am going with so it is no wonder that some make dangerous journeys this: 56 days would have meant she was not in destitution to countries that they feel might welcome them. We or at risk of destitution. Between 16 and 30 October, should be proud that we are seen as a welcoming K and her child were destitute and, although they country, but we should make every effort to allow more received support from the Red Cross, it could have been of those safe and legal routes offered by resettlement. so easily avoided. As I draw my remarks to a close, I have a couple more We must also change the administrative barriers that requests of the Minister. The Government could change delay new refugees from moving on. Recently, another by regulation, and very quickly, the right for asylum constituent and his family were granted further leave to seekers to work. At the moment, it is limited. After six remain. Their 28 days began and they tried to apply for months of applying for refugee status, some can apply local authority housing. Unfortunately, they were not for employment in certain categories, which unless I am sent an eviction notice from their asylum accommodation, very much mistaken still includes that of ballet dancer. which must be done in the form of a letter, and without To my not very certain knowledge, there are not many that letter they could not apply for housing. My caseworkers people setting out from Syria saying, “I want to be a Michelle and Sheila, whom I thank from the bottom of ballet dancer.” These people have got skills and want to my heart—what they do is extraordinary, and I am sure work from the moment they get status, but if they face all hon. Members present speak highly of the work that prolonged delays in the asylum process, that weakens caseworkers do in our name—did all they could to their skills. speed up the process, but even so the family received the Ministers have also talked to me about wanting people letter with just eight days to go. Their ability to live had to be able to return home when conditions are safe. We rested on those bureaucratic nightmares. That does not could talk about refoulement, preventing further do us proud. As a country we should be proud, and we traumatisation and the damage of sending people home have a right to be proud, of our tradition in welcoming when it is not safe, but, if it is safe for people to return refugees. I know Government Ministers agree. We have to their country of origin, we want them to have kept up that right to be proud, so why let those bureaucratic their skills, not lost them through prolonged periods of nightmares creep in when they are fixable? unemployment. Alternatively, the Home Office could By comparison, resettlement schemes are a measure meet its own service standard of six months, and do so that the Government and everyone else should be proud properly, efficiently, fairly and transparently. That would of. The vulnerable persons resettlement scheme offers a help. The Government could also establish the scheme I fantastic model and is on target to successfully resettle mentioned on private renting. They could provide cash 20,000 Syrian refugees. I recently met Anne James, the grants and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford commissioning manager on the Syrian resettlement and Urmston, there could be co-ordination between programme at Bristol City Council, who spoke highly Departments. of the scheme and her interaction with Government. I The moment someone receives their refugee status was really impressed by the operation and support of should be one of celebration. It should be a time when the initiative. For resettled refugees under such schemes, refugees feel able to move on, if possible, from the the dedicated caseworker, who supports their needs, is a horrors they have left and the difficulties they have had lifeline. We should look to that process as a best-practice to face. Instead, all too often, the contradictions of approach. Government policy and the cuts to various services—I As the APPG pointed out in its report three years have not even mentioned cuts to English language ago—and, to be fair, as the sector pointed out years services—leave refugees facing new problems such as before—the gulf between our asylum process and the homelessness and destitution, and, as Women for Refugee resettlement process makes for a two-tier system. There Women has said, vulnerable to harms such as exploitation are asylum seekers who are granted refugee status and and abuse. We are and should always remain proud of are here legally, and there are those who come via the being a welcoming country to people fleeing conflict, resettlement route whose status is already granted, but but we have a choice about how we treat people. We can the route a refugee takes does not make them more or choose to treat them with dignity or to put them at risk less deserving of support. Rather than making them of destitution. I look forward to hearing what the feel welcome, the asylum process leaves new refugees Minister has to say. fighting to overcome what feel like impossible barriers. Those barriers could be removed, and the resettlement Several hon. Members rose— scheme shows us how we could do that. Sir David Amess (in the Chair): Seven colleagues wish There are other fantastic models open for adoption to speak and we will start the winding-up speeches by the Home Office and the Government more widely. at 3.30 pm, so please share the time at about six or seven Colleagues could talk at length about the community minutes each. sponsorship scheme, the city of sanctuary approach and other community and local initiatives that provide 2.46 pm wonderful and welcome examples of how we can do this really well. My constituents want to welcome refugees Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I am grateful who have a right to be here, and I am sure the Minister’s for the opportunity to serve under your chairmanship, do, too. I am sure most of us also want to prevent, as far Sir David, and look forward to doing so again in future. as possible, situations in which desperate people feel I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol 313WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 314WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) West (Thangam Debbonaire) on securing this important moment of great risk and often hardship. I hope the debate, which gives us an opportunity to speak up for Minister will agree with me that the current situation is those refugees who have received an asylum decision, untenable and must change. because they are experiencing difficulties. We need to listen to those on the frontline, including We are not providing enough support to asylum experts such as the British Red Cross and others, when seekers after they receive their decision, and the results they tell us that asylum support must be extended to at can be disastrous. In particular, I will talk about the least 56 days. We need to honour our international incompatibility of universal credit and the asylum support obligations not just to allow refugees in, but to ensure system. We know that, in its current form, universal that they can survive, and access food and shelter. We credit is deeply flawed, especially in its ability to cope are not currently doing that. Will the Minister agree to with applications from more vulnerable individuals. look again at the support provided to those granted Whenever I have met refugees, whether in communities asylum when they claim universal credit, and at removing or detention centres in the UK, or overseas in my the barriers they face when making those claims? former role as shadow Secretary of State for International When we welcome refugees into this country, pointing Development, I have always been struck by their sheer them in the direction of a food bank must not be the resilience. That should not blind us to the fact that they first thing we do. We are one of the richest countries in are among the most vulnerable people in the world. the world. We can do better than that, and, for the sake They have not only been uprooted from their lives and of those who come to our country seeking a better life, families but have often experienced extreme trauma. we must do better. My constituent Zeynep fled torture to claim asylum in the UK. After a long-drawn-out process, she was finally granted asylum in October last year. With the 2.52 pm help of a charity, she applied for universal credit, but Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure when her asylum support was withdrawn 28 days later, to contribute to this debate with you in the Chair, her claim was still pending. She was left with no support Sir David. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member and quickly forced to rely on food banks and handouts for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) on securing the to survive. The acceptance of her asylum application debate, and on the characteristically powerful way in should have been a moment of celebration; instead, it which she opened it and made the point so effectively. became the moment she was pushed into absolute poverty. She is right, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Zeynep’s is not a case in which individual errors were Edmonton (Kate Osamor), that gaining refugee status made, leading to delay.The asylum support and universal should be a moment for celebration, but that for too credit systems worked exactly as they were supposed to. many it is a ticking clock towards homelessness and Universal credit claimants must wait a minimum of five destitution. weeks before receiving their first payment, which means Sheffield was the UK’s first city of sanctuary. We there is a deliberate gap between the end of asylum made a very positive statement that we wanted to support and that payment. In the best-case scenario, welcome those fleeing persecution and war, and to give that means enduring weeks without money for basic them a good reception in our city. I am proud that that necessities such as food, rent or heating. That is the movement has spread all over the country. We have best-case scenario. The reality of universal credit is: some of the most organised and best co-ordinated never expect the best-case scenario. support charities and organisations helping refugees A Salvation Army study published in 2018 found that and asylum seekers, but even in our position the 28-day only 14.5% of people who applied for universal credit move-on period is not sufficient to prevent homelessness did not have any problems. It found that a key barrier to and destitution. claiming universal credit was an inability to apply digitally, In preparation for today’s debate, I spoke to two local and a lack of knowledge about how to claim. charities about the issues that refugees in Sheffield face People who have recently been granted asylum are at the end of the move-on period: City of Sanctuary, particularly likely to experience those difficulties, and which provides general support, and Nomad, a charity therefore have greater difficulty claiming universal credit. that particularly helps those who face homelessness and For many asylum seekers, having received a positive that tells me it has seen a steady increase in the number asylum decision, the first thing they need to do is claim of refugees who are forced to become rough sleepers. universal credit. They need the essential support of As my colleagues have indicated, there is much that basic funds while they look for work or if they fall ill, as could be done. City of Sanctuary has called for the well as for paying rent. If they have had to scrape by on Government’s urgent guide for refugees to be provided the tiny amount provided through asylum support, they in a range of languages, because many of those granted will urgently need more support, but they tell me and refugee status are likely to face language barriers in many of my colleagues that the system is not fit for accessing services. It is not on that the guide is currently purpose. available only in English. The current system is failing refugees, just as it fails Refugees also face barriers when opening bank accounts, many other vulnerable groups. The acceptance of an which they need immediately for payment of wages or asylum claim is often the end of a long and difficult to gain access to social security. Banks do not provide journey, which we must acknowledge. Being recognised interpreters, and many newly granted refugees do not as a refugee, and being given the right to live and work have a support network of trusted English speakers in the UK, should be a moment of celebration, but the who can help. City of Sanctuary also found that online risk of poverty and homelessness faced by refugees forms and mobile banking apps do not recognise occupancy following such a decision means that, for many, it is a status, which is often the situation for those who have 315WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 316WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) [Paul Blomfield] would be enough to get accommodation, if it were needed. If someone were to present themselves as homeless been living in asylum accommodation. I ask the Minister, to Birmingham City Council, or just as needing housing, will he commit to working with the banks to resolve not necessarily as a priority need, it would probably those issues? take 18 months before they were given anywhere they Internet access is also a real issue. These days almost could actually live. When my brother applied for universal everything, including universal credit applications, has credit, he decided to grow his beard for the time it took to be done online, but mobile internet access costs before he got a payment; he looked like Rasputin before money.There are some places where free internet services he got any funding. That puts it into some perspective. are available, but newly recognised refugees may well I want to talk specifically about the effect on refugee not know about them. women, which I am sure will surprise absolutely no one, There are other issues too, but many of the problems and to bring to the Minister’s attention the findings of come down to the short move-on period. As my hon. the “Will I ever be safe?” report by Women for Refugee Friend the Member for Bristol West pointed out, asylum Women. I think it is vital that this element is included in seekers have not had the right to work before being this debate. The women featured in the report are here granted status, so they have not built up savings because in the Gallery listening to our debate. The report details they have not had an income to support themselves. the cases of 106 asylum-seeking and refugee women. There is cross-party concern about changing the right They left their countries for a variety of reasons, but to work. In the last Parliament, the former Conservative around half the women said that they had experienced Cabinet Minister, Caroline Spelman, led a debate in this violence at the hands of the state authorities, 42% had Chamber about seeking to change the rules, so that the been tortured and almost one third had been raped by right to work was granted. The Minister should advocate soldiers, prisoners, guards or the police in their own for that in debates at the Home Office. country. More than one third of the women had been As my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton pointed raped in the private sphere, with others fleeing forced out, there is a real incompatibility between the length of marriage, forced prostitution and other forms of the move-on period and the five-week wait for universal gender-based violence. More than one third of the credit. The Red Cross found that 65% of refugees who destitute women were forced into unwanted relationships were supported to apply for universal credit were left because of their destitution in this period that we are with no financial support; the proportion of those who talking about. were not supported would be even higher. As my hon. When faced with an impossible situation, very often Friend the Member for Bristol West pointed out, a in those cases the women end up back in dangerous and simple measure, such as a cash grant at the point of violent relationships, or exploited as part of a pattern of being granted status, could make an enormous difference. street homelessness. Certainly, something that I have City of Sanctuary in Sheffield told me that even for seen time and again while working with victims of those classed as a priority need, 28 days is not long human trafficking is how the constant merry-go-round enough, in many cases, for local authorities to find of destitution for that group of women leaves them suitable accommodation. Refugee families have been severely vulnerable to the people who come along and required to stay in unsafe and unsuitable places. Nomad exploit them for sex. One quarter of the women who told me that because of that, some refugees who are were spoken to in the report—bear in mind that suffering placed in emergency accommodation decide that taking sexual violence was part of the reason they fled—were their chance on the street as rough sleepers is a better raped or sexually abused when sleeping outside or in option. For those not classed as a priority need, the other people’s homes. only option is private rented accommodation, which is difficult, if not impossible, to access without a universal When I used to work with asylum-seeking women, credit payment and the means to put down a deposit, so who at that time were largely from Sierra Leone, in we return to the same issues again. Birmingham, it was often described as moving “from City of Sanctuary found that some refugees have one hell to another”, and that also seems to be the case received penalty notices from the NHS, despite being in with this destitution gap. We see that one third of receipt of universal credit. I hope the Minister will consider women raped in their home country are then raped taking that up with his colleagues at the Department of again here in the UK. My hon. Friend highlighted the Health and Social Care. That reflects a general point case of Mariam and how long it had taken her to gain that the Home Office needs to work more closely with access to benefits. That sounded much more realistic local authorities and with the Department for Work than the timeframes laid out, and much closer to my and Pensions to ensure that newly granted refugees understanding, as a constituency Member of Parliament, start getting the support they need as soon as possible. of how long it takes to actually access benefits. She waited nine months to get her benefits. The key point that has come out of today’s debate is the pressing need to extend the move-on period for I want to tell a tiny bit of Mariam’s story, so that she people granted refugee status from 28 days to 56 days. does not just become a person who had to wait a little while for benefits and so that we can feel who she is. I 2.58 pm will read it in her words: Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab): It is a “I’m from Fumayu in Somalia and came to the UK in November pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir David. 2008 after fleeing the war. I’m from a minority clan called Bajuni… I escaped the war in Somalia twice. The first time was in I will start by commenting on what has been said so the early 1990s. Militiamen broke into our family home and raped eloquently by my hon. Friends about the idea that me. They raped my daughter Amina as well. She was just 15. The universal credit happens within five weeks, or that 28 days men shot her dead after, and they killed my son too.” 317WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 318WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) She fled originally to Kenya and then eventually here to when they are coming into a hostile asylum system. the UK. She applied for asylum the day after she There is no evidence at all that those countries that arrived. She says: allow a right to work receive flows of asylum seekers on “Because I had no money, the Home Office put me in a hostel a scale that other countries do not. where I got two meals a day.” Tim Farron: Absolutely spot on; I am grateful for that Mariam was rehoused in Middlesbrough. She was intervention, and I hope that the Minister will take the scared, and the interpreter brought in for her asylum time just to check with his civil servants that that is interview spoke Swahili, not Kibajuni, which is the absolutely true. There is no pull factor associated with language she speaks. She was made to speak in a those countries. The majority of civilised countries do different language and found it difficult to explain exactly what we are asking for and allow people to work herself. The Home Office refused her asylum claim. She while they are seeking asylum. The issue we are talking was eventually granted her benefits, but, as has already about is the push factor, not the pull factor. Why do been said, her asylum support stopped in January and people leave in the first place? her benefits did not start for nine months. The Home Office put Mariam in a dirty hotel. She had no money, Focusing on the purpose of this debate, we see that a and she was lucky that she had a solicitor who gave her successful verdict is given to many of those who seek some cash and that she was able to rely for some things asylum. As has already been said, they may have received on local charities. formal refugee status, but the relief and celebration are cut short as they realise that their newly achieved status That cannot be the system that the Minister hopes to is actually a kind of 28-day ultimatum: 28 days until see for a woman multiply raped, whose children have their asylum support is stopped, just 28 days of been killed in front of her. I ask him to consider all the accommodation and 28 days of a weekly allowance. In things requested by my hon. Friend. a vast number of cases, this is 28 days’ countdown to destitution. Many of those whom we see sleeping on the 3.4 pm streets of this city are people for whom that 28-day period has expired. Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): It is a Imagine, Sir David, being given 28 days to find great honour to serve under your guidance, Sir David. I accommodation in a foreign country to which you have pay tribute to all those who have spoken so far in the fled to escape war or persecution, not forgetting that debate, and in particular to the hon. Member for Bristol you have not been allowed to work until this point, so West (Thangam Debbonaire), who has led the debate so therefore you also need to find a job during that time—either very well, and not only today. that, or apply for universal credit. Universal credit’s It is important that we focus on that move-on period rules have made it almost inevitable that refugees will be for migrants, because it is more than just an administrative left without support; an automatic 35-day wait to receive wrinkle; it is a deep injustice. I am sure the Minister is their first payment is completely incompatible with the now fully aware of that. It has a colossal impact on the 28 days that refugees have to access it. Then, of course, lives of incredibly vulnerable people, such as those we there will be the complexities of the paperwork and have already heard about this afternoon. As asylum documentation required to gain access to universal seekers arrive in Britain, often after long and harrowing credit in the first place. journeys just to get here in the first place, they face a The safeguards in the universal credit system to ensure battle to gain refugee status, overcoming language barriers that claimants are not left without support are often not and confusing paperwork, and persevering through any accessed by refugees. Either they are unaware that they delays and mishaps along the way. are eligible, or they do not even have a bank account to Throughout all that, of course, they are denied the receive the support. Under the Homelessness Reduction opportunity to work. That is not the principal purpose Act 2017, local authorities are given a 56-day period of this debate, but I would love the Minister to take to work with households at risk of homelessness. For seriously the point that it is not just morally wrong to refugees to receive support for only a pitiful 28 days is deny those seeking asylum the right to work, but really utterly ludicrous; it is almost designed to take desperate foolish. To give people the right to work while they are people, who ran to us for sanctuary and safety, and seeking asylum is to give them the ability to integrate plunge them into bewildered misery as they are forced into the community, to improve their language skills, to on charity or, increasingly, on to the streets. provide for themselves and their families, and to be in a I am pretty sure we all agree that human beings far better place to contribute fully once their claim is deserve to be treated with dignity. We as a society, as a accepted. Government, as a country, have already accepted that At the moment, as the Minister knows, a tiny minority people in such situations deserve protection under the of those with very specialist skills—they pretty much refugee convention, yet the current system is a far cry have to be a brain surgeon—have the right to exercise from recognising that in practice. their skills in this country. Why should not people who Refugees are forced to sleep rough, work illegally or are seeking asylum have the right to earn, to work and face appalling exploitation in order to meet their basic to support themselves? needs while jumping through bureaucratic hoops to access money, accommodation, employment, education Kate Green: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that and so on. Will the Minister commit to providing there is no evidence that those countries that offer the refugees in the UK with the respect and dignity they right to work to asylum seekers suffer from some perceived deserve from day one of being recognised as a refugee, pull factor? People flee their home country because of and to giving them what they need to build their lives danger and persecution; they do not flee their home in a new place and flourish in and contribute to country because they think they will get a better job our society? 319WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 320WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) [Tim Farron] The second area of concern is mental health support. According to the Refugee Council, 61% of asylum In many ways the solution is simple: extend the seekers experience serious mental distress, which does move-on period to at least 56 days, which would cover not change when they receive their status. Refugees the break in support and give refugees the best chance are five times more likely to have mental health needs of establishing a stable and productive life here. Extending than those in the UK population. That is just an the move-on period to 56 days would have a financial acknowledgement of the situation that many people benefit of between £4 million and £7 million each year have faced, and the reason why they have had to come for the taxpayer. Local authorities would save £2.1 million here to ask for refuge. Mental health support especially through the decreased use of temporary accommodation fails young people who leave care and need support. I and up to £3.2 million through reduced rough sleeping. have heard that the threshold for needing support is not Alongside that, we must remove the administrative one suicide attempt, but more than one, which is absolutely barriers that newly recognised refugees face. They need shocking. People need to know how to access services to be able to open bank accounts and receive the right and support. documentation, and they need support to help them Community services provide an important bridge navigate the move-on period, apply for universal credit between need and the people who can provide for those and obtain secure accommodation. needs. For a start, we need to be joined up so that I recognise that there are complexities around which people do not need community support to access services. Department the matter falls under, but that is no excuse. Also, we should support community projects that enable While more and more families find themselves destitute refugees to claim the things that they are entitled to. and desperate, unable to meet even their basic needs, we The third area is education support. Many children need decisive action to end the tragedy of refugee from a refugee background, including the children of destitution. Will the Treasury and the Government take refugees, need additional support to be able to thrive steps today to end the departmental deadlock and in the education system. Many refugees have faced extend the 28-day waiting period to 56 days? That discrimination, housing issues, language problems, and would reduce benefit claims and increase the productivity trauma from the situation that they have faced, which of refugees in this country. More importantly, it would also impedes their children’s ability to thrive. Education, enable them to live in safety and dignity. It will save health and care plans are only in English, which could them from further pain and trauma on top of all that be easily rectified. If they were provided across the they have experienced already. With a simple change in country in different languages, such an easy change policy, we can prevent destitution and save money. It is would make a big difference. There is no translation for blindingly, obviously, the right thing to do. Will the children in need. There is a confusing system and refugees Government do it? do not know how the English system works. They find that they need to fight for their rights, which other 3.11 pm parents already understand. Community services such as Love to Learn can provide a bridge, but it would be Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): It is a pleasure to even better if we did not need it. serve under your chairship, Sir David. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam The fourth area is English for speakers of other Debbonaire) on securing this important debate. I am languages, especially ESOL services with a creche, which delighted to be able to contribute and stand up for the enables women to attend. Since 2009, Government funding women, children and families whom I have supported for ESOL courses has been cut by 60%, and the wider recently.Up to December,I was running a refugee support adult skills budget, which people go on to—they have project called Love to Learn in the borough of Wandsworth. their ESOL and need to go on to the next thing—has I pay tribute to everyone working in the team and also been cut by 35%. In the Government’s integrated to other local organisations: CARAS, the South London communities action plan, published in February 2019—I Refugee Association and Wandsworth Welcomes Refugees. have a copy of it here—boosting English language skills I want to talk about community services and widen the is recognised as absolutely key to community integration. debate to consider other ways in which we can support The plan states: those who have been granted refugee status, but need “Speaking and understanding English means you are less more support to be able to live here. vulnerable to isolation, improves your work prospects, increases your chance of friendships with people from different backgrounds First, let us consider housing support for young and allows you to feel more confident when accessing local people leaving care. Asylum seekers might have come services.” here unaccompanied. When they leave care, they often fall into what has been described to me, by someone So we have an action plan that, from my experience in who came recently from Eritrea, as a dark hole. As was Wandsworth, is not being funded or delivered. Will the mentioned earlier, a cash grant is needed for the essentials Minister return to the plan and see whether it is being in the accommodation that they might be provided implemented, because it is absolutely fundamental for with, from the most basic things such as sheets and a refugees? duvet to a cooker. I have had to drive to pick up and I agree with the Members who spoke earlier about take basic goods over to help young people. Not having extending the move-on period to 56 days and giving a bank account is one reason why they could not buy refugees the right to work. I would add that support to goods. Getting a bank account is really hard. There is community services such as those in my borough of also the issue of internet access. I have sat in local cafés Wandsworth, which already support refugees but could with young people because I have a smartphone and am do much more with relatively little funding, is essential. able to access the services that they need. After leaving We are fortunate in this country to be able to welcome care, no support at all is given. new neighbours, colleagues and friends to our communities. 321WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 322WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) It says a lot about us as a country that we can do payments to be made. That example involved a British that—we can take pride in it—and provide refuge to citizen who ticked all the boxes. Yet she had real difficulty people who desperately need it. We must keep doing in getting to the end of her trials and tribulations. better, not only because it is the right thing to do, but I am thankful to the many charities that do all they because it is important and fundamental to building can to help families who need help. My office, like, I integrated, happy communities together. suspect, other MPs’ offices, is a referral point for the food bank, which has been the difference between a full and empty belly for refugees in my constituency. That is 3.18 pm how drastic it is. It is as serious as that when people have Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. to find their way through the system. Crisis has said Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) for that in 2016-17, 478 people, or 7% of new clients setting the scene. I always enjoy the debates she secures, approaching it for help that year, were having difficulty because she is so passionate and her voice is always so with transition from the asylum payment. We should strong as well. She says the right things and it is a remember that those were only the people who contacted pleasure to be involved in any of her debates. She that charity. The figure should probably be multiplied speaks with knowledge, passion and interest, as have by a large number, if people who went to other charities other speakers. were included. Those were people who were forced to flee their homes and support systems and who landed in I am concerned about asylum decisions.This is something the country knowing no one and often not having a we need to alter. We want the Minister to give us the good grasp of the language. We simply need to do response we wish to hear. We look forward to that with better for them and we look to the Minister to give us trepidation. We all know that whenever we move house, the answers that our constituents, and the refugees, it takes time to get our affairs in order. Most people need to hear. take out a standardised three-month mail re-route with the post office, on the understanding that things do not We have been fortunate in my constituency to have always go as smoothly as we would like. The situation five Syrian refugee families who came to our area. I met for refugees is more difficult. them as their MP, as is my duty, although I would do so irrespective of whether I was the MP and help in any I have been very vocal in my opposition to the five-week way I could. I will tell you the truth, Sir David, and give delay in universal credit, which in reality is a two-month you a real example. I do not mean any disrespect to gap for many people to get all the information they anyone and am not trying to point the finger at anyone, need for the official documentation. To expect someone but it was the local church groups, which got together—and to apply for their social security number, which is a particularly the Link group that brought them together— necessity for universal credit, and to then complete the that helped the Housing Executive to get them some process within the 28 days that the asylum payment rental accommodation. The church groups, and that continues is absurd. It is simply not feasible or one in particular, got clothes for them and their children, fundamentally achievable.Indeed, I would be very interested and food as well as accommodation. We use the Thriving to hear how many people have successfully managed to Life church for the food bank. Local church groups also navigate the process within 28 days. I frequently deal got the furniture to furnish their homes for them. They with the benefits and universal credit system, and in my had nothing. Those people come with nothing and start opinion the number is very few. I do not want to put the from a base that none of us ever starts from. We are Minister on the spot, but it would be good to hear what fortunate to have had years of work, and family connections, the numbers are: I suspect they are small, if there are but they had none. any such people at all. My constituents find it difficult to get their tenancies, sick lines, past earnings, bank The menfolk—they were the earners when they were statements, identification documents and child support in Syria—were accomplished tradesmen. They could payments in order,and their first language is English—never have done carpentry or electrical work. Those were mind starting all that from scratch in a second language. their trades. They just needed to start to do that. Another The difficulties are real. They are enormous for people massive problem was language and having someone to who must negotiate those things in an unfamiliar language. interact with them. The church groups,again, did something If we believe that people are in need of asylum, I believe about that. Another problem was education for the that we accept that it is our responsibility to provide it. children. Fortunately the children were of an age at That does not mean abandoning them to a system that which they had some grasp of English, and some were it is difficult for us, never mind them, to understand. It fairly fluent. We got them into local schools. I am sorry would seem logical to offer every bit of support we can. if I am rambling on a wee bit, but those things happened An example of a slightly different situation, but not because of Government and the universal credit which none the less shows how the system works, involves system, but because local people took the initiative. It a lady who was born here and moved to Canada and was really important. raised her children there. She came home in her 70s We need to extend support to allow refugees peace of after her husband died, to be with family and friends mind while they go through the quagmire of universal who would give her support. We had to fight to get any credit or getting a job. Many jobs pay monthly in bank to give her a bank account, despite the fact that arrears, which puts them in the same position. They are she was the recipient of a British pension and had a behind the eight ball—even worse than anyone else, it national insurance number. It took us weeks, if not seems. Charities and church groups are wonderful but months, to get her a bank account, and I personally we need to send the right message and either resolve the vouched for her on the strength of her family connections, universal credit timing, which I have been pushing for as they lived in Newtownards and I knew them. It was a since its inception, or acknowledge the failure in our necessity to get the bank account for universal credit system and not allow vulnerable people to be the ones 323WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 324WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) [Jim Shannon] improved on. However, the overwhelming evidence is that it does not come remotely close to fixing the who suffer. I support the extension of payment for problems that have been highlighted. All the help in the refugees to 56 days and ask the Minister to consider world will not alter the fact that 28 days is insufficient that. I say to him gently and sincerely that we are here time for moving on. There seems to be a fundamental because we all feel the same on behalf of refugees. failure to grasp that the moving-on process is a gargantuan task for many individuals, given what they have been put through. Weare dealing, in many cases, with incredibly 3.25 pm vulnerable people. By definition they are here because Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and they have fled persecution in a different country, and all Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): It is a pleasure to see you in sorts of barriers can stem from that, including language, the Chair, Sir David. I pay tribute to the hon. Member mental health issues—something that the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) and congratulate for Putney (Fleur Anderson) referred to—and a fear of her on securing the debate and on another brilliant interacting with the authorities. Twenty-eight days is speech, as well as on the brilliant work she does as chair simply too short a time. As a result, already scarred lives of the APPG on refugees—including the “Refugees are even more damaged by our Government’s failure to Welcome?” report. We are fortunate to have her chairing deal with this in a comprehensive manner. the group. I pay tribute, in fact, to every Member who The impact of that failure does not last only a few has taken part in the debate. Every speech was excellent days; it can set back integration by months, years and and showed huge knowledge. I mean no disrespect even for life. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley when I say that almost certainly that is partly because (Jess Phillips) gave powerful examples of that, particularly many of the same Members have been making similarly relating to women. At the stroke of a pen, Ministers excellent points in excellent speeches for years on end. could take a significant step toward fixing this by making We now need the Government to listen and to act on the move-on period long enough for refugees to be able, some of the advice that is being provided. with proper support, to navigate the system and establish I pay tribute also to organisations such as the British themselves here. Red Cross, the Refugee Council, the Scottish Refugee Council, Crisis and the local organisations that Members Hon. Members set out a whole host of problems with have mentioned, which work at the coalface supporting the move-on period, which I will refer to briefly. First the people we have been speaking about, and engaging and foremost, 28 days is not only too short but is totally in advocacy work on behalf of those vulnerable individuals. incompatible with the 35 days required, in theory, to Without them we would not be able to make the case we access universal credit, and is inconsistent with the are making today. 56-day provision the Government put in their own homelessness legislation. Secondly, we heard about all I think that this is the first chance I have had to the challenges in getting the necessary documentation welcome the Minister to his new post at the Home to open bank accounts and to access social security and Office. I am never quite sure whether to congratulate or accommodation. The Government have taken steps in commiserate with those who are sent to the Home the right direction, but there is still an awful long way to Office. He has a tough job ahead of him and I wish him go, and a joined-up approach is very much missing. all the best in it. If he is ever looking for constructive advice and help, I am happy to meet him at any point. There is a lack of knowledge in some institutions—we The debate highlights an absolute tragedy. The hon. heard about banks, but also local authorities and Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) was jobcentres—about what evidence is needed, and even right to say that every grant of refugee status should be about how to apply tests such as the habitual residence something to celebrate. It is another human being who test. I am not sure whether problems accessing integration is protected under international law as a person at risk loans have been referred to, but there are still huge of persecution in their home country. What a tragedy it challenges relating to awareness and insufficient loans, is that, after we have taken that step and stepped up to particularly for those who might want to access our moral and legal obligations, the system works in accommodation in the private rented sector. As several such a way as to make the refugee homeless and destitute Members said, extending the move-on period could immediately. It is a tragedy and disgrace, and, as the save the Government £7 million because of reductions hon. Member for Edmonton (Kate Osamor) said, we in rough sleeping and reduced local authority spend on are a rich country and can and must do much better. As temporary accommodation. It would also save the Scottish the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, Government a small fortune in the amount that they all sorts of statistics show that the situation is not just a have to pay out through Scottish welfare fund crisis few isolated examples of folk falling through the safety grants. net. It is a huge, widespread problem. It does not need Fifty-six days is the minimum period recommended to be like this, and many of the key problems could be by those at the coalface, and the reasoning was set out solved simply by extending the move-on period. That is in detail by the hon. Member for Bristol West. My party not a complete solution, but it would take us 90% of the is absolutely behind that, and we would also support way there. flexibility for appropriate cases involving longer transitions. I am sure that the Government will talk about liaison Why end asylum support before we know that the first officers, post-grant appointments, signposting, integration universal credit payment has actually been made? The funding and attempts to ensure that national insurance call we make is based on evidence from those working numbers are issued as part of the process of issuing with people making the transition and on experience biometric residence cards. That is all welcome and with constituents. If the Minister does not support necessary, although even those processes need to be 56 days, how does he justify 28 days? Will he explain 325WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 326WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) why the Home Office thinks 28 days appropriate? I have 3.35 pm completely failed to find any explanation as to why that is deemed an appropriate move-on period. Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab): I apologise for running in like a bat out of hell. It is a pleasure to serve A whole host of other related issues feed into the under your chairship, Sir David. I congratulate my hon. problem of post-decision support. They could all probably Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) command a debate in their own right, so I will refer to on securing the debate and hon. Members who have them in passing. Hon. Members have done a good job spoken. of explaining why they are so important. First, asylum The toxic debate surrounding immigration has meant decision-making times seem to be growing out of control. that there are increasingly fewer people in positions of We also heard about the right to work, and the hon. power to speak up for the most vulnerable in our society, Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) asylum seekers among them. In the clamour to appear in particular detailed how significant that is. Clearly, tough on immigration, we have lost that once proud people will be less likely to require support or to fall British tradition of accepting into this country those in into destitution if they have already been working by most need—one example we hear often is that of the the time they have their decision. It is way past time for Kindertransport and our noble Friend Lord Alf Dubs. lifting the ban on the right to work. Refugees should absolutely be welcome here, but at We also need to look at the whole dispersal system, the moment it seems that we refuse to treat them with the huge delays in paying asylum support and the paltry dignity and humanity. We must remember that they do levels of support that we give to asylum seekers. We not choose where they were born, the political issues need to recognise that they are hugely disproportionately that occur in their country or the situations that arise placed in areas of already high deprivation, and we then that mean they have to flee. They should not be held to pay them a pittance in support—£5.39 per day—none account for that; rather, we should receive them with of which aids integration or makes a subsequent transition open arms. period smoother. Ultimately, the UK Government’s The Government seem to want to stop at nothing to whole approach to integration needs to be looked at maintain their hostile environment; they have even suggested again. It seems almost as if it has been designed around that, in some cases, they would deny legitimate asylum the half of asylum applicants who ultimately will not be claims which, of course, would be against the 1951 recognised as refugees. It is almost as if they are attempting refugee convention. The Government’sfocus on deterrence, to make the system as miserable as possible, to deter rather than on establishing safe and legal routes, is an applications. We should design the system around the expression of that, and they should be deeply ashamed half of applicants who are refugees and will eventually of it. As we have heard, it has been left mostly to faith be recognised as refugees. The aim should be integration and community organisations to fill the gap that the from day one, which is the approach at the centre of the Government should be filling. They do an absolutely Scottish Government’s integration strategy. fantastic job, but it is simply not their job, and they do not have the resources to continue doing it. As others have said, the Home Office’s approach We have heard many people touch on the right to means a two-tier system in practice, with a different work, and I am proud that it is the Labour party’s approach to resettled refugees and refugees who come policy, as well as to establish safe and legal routes, to through the UK asylum process. I accept that the allow asylum seekers the right to work after six months. approach to resettled refugees cannot just be cut and Commentators wax lyrical about asylum seekers being pasted and applied to those who have come through the a drain on resources, but we refuse to let them work. As process here, but there are all sorts of examples of good I said, people do not come here because they want practice that could be taken from the resettlement handouts. A lot of them have skills to work and should programme and applied to those who have gone through be given the opportunity to do so. In working, they the system. As Members have said, one example is the would reduce that so-called bill that people talk about up-front cash grant of £300 per person for resettled and give back to the community. They want to work refugees while they wait for universal credit. and to integrate into society, but denying them the right In conclusion, as I said at the outset, it is hugely to work does not allow that. The Government also frustrating that these issues have persisted for ages. said that they want to curb modern slavery, but these Charities and parliamentary Committees have been restrictions on the right to work really undermine that reporting on this for years on end. I have a small worry so-called policy. that things might actually get worse before they get On ESOL, we argue that people should speak English, better. The hon. Member for Putney was among those but we maintain that the Government’s policy is shameful highlighting the importance of funding for community and treats those claiming asylum as though they were organisations. As I understand it, EU asylum, migration on immigration bail. These measures prevent young and integration funding, which supports services such people from accessing education, including ESOL classes. as the Scottish Refugee Council’s integration service, is Two years ago, three young men who came here as due to end in September. It is important to know what unaccompanied minors from Eritrea committed suicide. the Government will do to replace that funding. More Imagine travelling all that way here, to safety—in terrible fundamentally, we need the Minister to agree that the conditions and at the mercy of people traffickers—only position is completely unacceptable and that urgent to feel so unsafe that, once they had arrived in what was action is required. More tweaks will not suffice. Some meant to be a place of safety, they wanted to commit might be important, but we need the move-on period to suicide. That stands to reason, given the way in which be extended, as advocated by every single hon. Member they were treated. They felt so insecure about the length who has spoken so far. of time it was taking the Home Office to come to a 327WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 328WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) [Bell Ribeiro-Addy] in the way that she has demonstrated today, and I am grateful to her for raising this important subject in the decision that they felt that they had no option but to way she has. kill themselves. Instead of the Government supporting As the spokesman for the Scottish National party, people better, we seem to be handing over our services the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and to private companies, including Serco and G4S. We give Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald), said, I am millions and millions of pounds to those private companies, extremely new in this role. I was appointed to the Home which continue to fail. Even companies that have defrauded Office, in addition to the Ministry of Justice, only two the Government are left to provide housing and other or three weeks ago, so I am getting rapidly up to speed resources. Instead of giving that money to local authorities, with these issues, and it has been very useful to hear which I think would do better at providing housing, we everything that hon. Members have said today. However, see that a lot of complaints have been received about I am a Member of Parliament who represents Croydon, the housing—it is really poor housing. At the end of the and many hon. Members will know that one of the day, local authorities are responsible for the integration Home Office’s major centres for handling asylum of asylum seekers, and the money would be better spent applications is Lunar House in the London Borough of by them for the whole community, particularly in a Croydon. In fact, Croydon has, along with Kent, I climate in which things are being whipped up and a lot think, the highest number of unaccompanied asylum- of the time not a lot is going back into quite under-privileged seeking children. From my own constituency casework, communities. therefore, I am very familiar with many of the issues The mistakes made by the Government in relation to that have been raised about asylum in general and applications continue to be a disgrace and ruin lives. We UASCs in particular. Croydon was also the first borough talk about all the money that is wasted on immigration to roll out universal credit fully, so I have had a lot of and asylum, but I argue that we continue to do things experience as a constituency Member of Parliament of such as detain and deport asylum seekers and victims of that as well. trafficking and sexual violence—something that the Let me talk a bit about asylum in general, before Government said that we would not do—and every turning to some of the specific points raised today. single time we detain someone and keep them in a Several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for detention centre, that is wasting money. It is giving Bristol West, said that this country has a proud and money again to the same private companies. long history of welcoming refugees to these shores. In As has been demonstrated, the main point of this particular, when the Syrian crisis occurred four or five debate is to ask the Minister to explain why we have the years ago, we set up the vulnerable persons resettlement 28-day rule. Why will we not extend the period to scheme, which I think has worked extremely well. We set 56 days? Twenty-eight seems to be quite an arbitrary an ambition, an aim, a target of resettling 20,000 people, number. The Minister has heard again and again about mostly from Syria or from camps on the borders of how it eventually leaves people homeless and destitute Syria, directly in the UK, and we are, I think, extremely and ends up creating a greater cost for the Government. close to reaching the 20,000 level; I expect we will reach What would it actually cost if we were to extend the it in a matter of a few weeks. That scheme designed to period of support to 56 days? I wonder whether the help the most vulnerable people imaginable—people Minister could calculate whether that would cost as who have suffered terrible atrocities in Syria—has worked much as the Home Office tends to pay out for its very effectively. mistakes in relation to immigration claims. In relation to asylum more generally, there were 34,000 claims for asylum last year. The number has We have a legal and moral obligation to those who been going up for the last few years. Last year we made claim asylum, but daily we seem not to meet that, so justunder20,000—19,480—grantsof asylum,humanitarian what I would like to ask the Minister overall is when the protection or other forms of long-term leave. More Government will stop treating asylum seekers as second- than half were for asylum. I think that 20,000 per year class beings and if and when they will stop treating is a number that we can point to with pride as a country them as if claiming asylum is a crime. that wants to look after people who are fleeing persecution. The figure of 34,000—the number of people who claimed 3.41 pm asylum last year—is not the highest in Europe, but is one of the highest in Europe; it is certainly in the top The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the four numbers in Europe. The fact that people are coming Home Department (Chris Philp): It is a pleasure to serve here in such large numbers, often travelling first through under your chairmanship for the second time in two other safe European countries such as France, Germany days, Sir David. No doubt there will be many future and Italy, shows quite a high level of confidence among occasions as well. those who choose to come here. That is not to be I join other hon. Members in congratulating the hon. complacent or to dismiss any of the points raised, Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) on which I will come to, but in itself it does show that securing today’s debate and opening it with such a people seeking refugee status recognise that the UK is thoughtful but also passionate speech. She has for a somewhere that takes its obligations very seriously indeed. long time been a powerful and persuasive campaigner That is why, as I said, they often travel through safe and advocate on these issues. The Government might European countries to come here. Clearly, under the not always agree completely with everything that she Dublin convention, people are supposed to claim asylum says, but on many occasions we do, and I am grateful to in the first safe country that they reach. her for raising these issues in Parliament and for doing In relation to financial support for the asylum-seeking that in such a well considered and thoughtful manner. community, the cost of supporting asylum seekers is Cases are always much more persuasive when presented just under £1 billion—it is about £800 million—a year, 329WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 330WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) and approximately 50,000 people are being supported, who take an interest and I will copy it to the hon. so I feel that from a financial perspective, quite a lot is Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), since he specifically being done to support this vulnerable community. They raised that point. are vulnerable in the ways that hon. Members very The hon. Member for Strangford and others raised eloquently described. the important issue of English language lessons. As the I hope that those remarks have set the scene for the Scottish National party spokesman said, properly United Kingdom’s very significant and profound integrating people, particularly into the workforce, is commitment to supporting refugees. I shall turn now to critical. We spoke about universal credit, which I will the specific question about the 28 days. I would like come on to address. That is clearly an important way of to talk a bit about some of the things that we are doing supporting people. Ultimately, for those granted refugee to mitigate the impacts that have been described today status, as for anyone else, the way out of poverty is and then discuss the 28 days versus 56 days. through work rather than benefits. Being unable to speak English makes it very difficult to get into the I think that when my right hon. Friend the Member workforce. for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) English language support is important. Investment in was Immigration Minister, there was a debate on this it is about £100 million per year through the adult topic in which some of these issues were aired. Since education budget, which gives the money to various then, quite a few practical steps have been taken to try colleges and learning providers. They then decide how to make things as easy as possible for refugees in the to meet the specific needs of their local communities. 28-day period following the grant of their status. Let me We have augmented that with an extra £10 million to mention just a couple. First, the 28-day period is not support refugees who have come through the vulnerable necessarily triggered by the grant of status; it is started persons resettlement scheme, to ensure that they can only when the biometric residence permit is issued. access additional language training. On top of that, the That is the document needed to establish the status and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government enable people to apply for benefits and so on without is investing a further £4.5 million per year to support getting unduly delayed by bureaucratic error. I am told community-based language provision. that if administrative errors occur, that resets the 28-day period. If hon. Members have encountered any individual I completely accept the need for English language cases in which administrative errors that are not the training. I would rather that we taught people to fault of the refugee have occurred and a reset has not speak English than endlessly have to translate. Helping happened, I encourage them to write to me with the people to speak English is the best solution. I will particulars so that I can look into them. I would be very keep that under review. If there is evidence that the happy indeed to do that. level of provision is not adequate, I will happily follow up further. We also ensure that the individual’s national insurance number is on the permit, because experience suggests Kate Green: I understand that the MHCLG funding that one of the things that just generally speeds things for community-based language provision is due to come up is the NI number being clearly displayed in a place to an end and there is currently no news on that funding where it is easy for people to see. being renewed, despite our understanding a couple of The question of access to bank accounts was raised years ago that the Government intended to renew it. If by the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) and the Minister can do anything about that with his colleagues others, and it is clearly essential that refugees have bank in that Department to raise the issue, we would all accounts, because pretty much everything these days— appreciate it. getting work and everything else—requires a bank account. A lot of work has been done, and is under way as we Chris Philp: I will raise the issue with MHCLG speak, with banks to speed that up, make things easier colleagues and seek assurances that this funding line, and remove some of the barriers that exist, but I undertake which has happened in the past, will continue. to write to my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, who is the City Minister and responsible Fleur Anderson: I want to mention courses in English for financial service regulation, to get an update on for speakers of other languages coming with a crèche. where we are with ensuring that bank accounts are That is increasingly crucial the more those courses are available to refugees, who are obviously completely provided by colleges and similar providers, instead of entitled to live here and to work, as we all do, and make community-based providers. We are seeing that provision sure that that is functioning as it should. I will follow up being cut across the country. Women with children are that specific point. specifically disadvantaged by the cuts and they are not fair for all.
Jim Shannon: I was also one of those who mentioned Chris Philp: The hon. Lady makes a good point. As a bank accounts. I am very keen to know that what the father of young children, I understand that childcare is Minister is asking for means that there will be feedback important, whether for parents in work or further education, for all of us who are here and all the regions of the so her point is well made. United Kingdom, because we need to have that provision in Northern Ireland as well. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) made a related point about language. Notwithstanding my remarks a moment ago that teaching people to Chris Philp: I will write to the hon. Member for speak English is preferable to perpetually translating—for Bristol West about that point on bank accounts. She society and the individual concerned—I would like to can disseminate that as she sees fit to other hon. Members make it clear that the welcome guide for refugees to 331WH Asylum Decisions 4 MARCH 2020 Asylum Decisions 332WH (Support for Refugees) (Support for Refugees) [Chris Philp] six months, as well as how much the Home Office would save, if it made fewer mistakes and had to pay claims as England is available in multiple languages: Albanian, requested? Arabic, Chinese, Vietnamese, Kurdish, Farsi, Pashtu, Punjabi, Tigrinya and Urdu. Hopefully, that will be of Chris Philp: Work is not the topic of this debate, and use to speakers of those languages. it is more than a financial consideration. We can all agree that we must be quicker at handling asylum Regarding the 28-day period, we are working with claims. Whether they are successful, and we must integrate the voluntary sector. Several hon. Members have referred people into the community, or whether they are to its excellent work. We are also working with other unsuccessful, and the person must be removed, doing it Departments, as was raised by several hon. Members. quicker is in everybody’s interest. As a matter of priority, We are working with local authority asylum liaison as the new Minister, I will find ways of making this officers in some of the main areas where asylum seekers process quicker, which would mitigate a lot of the are being accommodated. That is funded by MHCLG. problems we have been discussing. The role of these liaison officers is to assist newly recognisedrefugeeswithmove-onarrangements,particularly I have listened carefully to everything that has been housing, to ensure that the transition from supported said. The points have been made with sincerity and accommodation to wider society happens as smoothly compassion. I will reflect carefully on what I have heard as it can. this afternoon. I will look at the case made in the Red Cross report and study those numbers. I thank the hon. Our asylum accommodation providers, the people Member for Bristol West for securing the debate and for who provide the supported housing while the claim is making her case in such a balanced and considered way. being processed, are under a contractual duty, under their contracts with the Home Office, to notify the local 3.58 pm authority and their liaison officers of the potential need Thangam Debbonaire: I thank the Minister for his to provide housing where a person in their accommodation comments. I am aware that we are going to vote any is granted status. We are doing everything we can to try minute now, so I will confine my closing remarks to to make that work, between the Home Office-supported expressing my thanks to all hon. Members for an extremely accommodation and the local authority’shousing services, thoughtful and constructive debate. Sometimes it feels supported by the liaison officer, as joined up as possible. like groundhog day, because we have done this before, The central question is 28 days versus 56 days. I have but I am heartened by the Minister’s response. His read the Red Cross report, to which the hon. Member commitment to read the Red Cross report is welcome. I for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) referred. I was glad to see nods from his officials at certain points have it here. There is clearly a financial cost to keeping made by hon. Members. people in supported accommodation for longer than I want to be hopeful. I hope that the Minister will they are currently kept there. The Red Cross report engage constructively with me and other hon. Members makes the case that the extra cost in the Home Office here, and I would be grateful if he agreed to meet me to estate would be outweighed by savings in local authorities, discuss some of the detail. I thank him for doing that. I due to less homelessness support. I will study the report. want to put on record the fact that I was referring It has some costings of that equation. I will look at the earlier to David Burrowes—a good man, who set a numbers carefully and make my own assessment as to good template. All hon. Members made constructive where that balance lies. and thoughtful contributions and I welcome the Minister’s In addition to the purely financial consideration, constructive approach to this. I hope we can take a there are practical capacity considerations. As we know, different approach, so that we do not have to do this housing is quite difficult to come by. If we extended debate next year—that would be fantastic. We will from 28 days to 56 days, we would increase the number come back to discuss the right to work—it is related—but of people in supported housing by a few thousand. We I am happy to take the Minister’s commitment that he would then have to find those extra spaces. Even if one will focus on the issue of 28 days versus 56 days at this could make a compelling financial case—the Red Cross point. says that case can be made—one must think practically Question put and agreed to. about where those places would come from. That must Resolved, be borne in mind. That this House has considered support for refugees after receiving an asylum decision. Bell Ribeiro-Addy: Will the Minister commit to looking at how much would be contributed financially by tax 3.59 pm payments, if asylum seekers were allowed to work after Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. 333WH 4 MARCH 2020 Mount Vernon Cancer Centre 334WH
Mount Vernon Cancer Centre Professor Slevin’s report set out a short-term action plan involving the transfer of the leadership, governance and management of Mount Vernon’s cancer services to an experienced tertiary or leading cancer service provider [SIR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE in the Chair] from London—that apparently is now sorted—as well as the appointment of additional staff and urgent backlog 4.15 pm maintenance work to existing clinical facilities. I would Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to welcome clarity from the Minister on the progress made move, in implementing that short-term action plan. In particular, That this House has considered the future of Mount Vernon will he publish the list of urgent backlog maintenance Cancer Centre. work that Professor Slevin and the rest of the clinical A devastating report last summer into the future of advisory panel noted was essential? Crucially, what Mount Vernon Cancer Centre by a clinical advisory progress has been made in tackling that work? panel led by Professor Nick Slevin at the instigation of I tabled a written parliamentary question that the NHS England stated that there was Minister answered on 11 February,suggesting that removing “increasing concern as to whether high quality, safe and sustainable asbestos from Mount Vernon would alone cost £12 million, oncology services can continue to be delivered…and there is an while the answer to another written parliamentary question urgent need to address this concern.” that I tabled, published on 21 October last year, stated: If media reports are to be believed, that was the first “Challenges remain around sourcing capital funding for backlog time in the NHS’s 71-year history that a major hospital maintenance and long-term solutions for the service.” specialising in such an important disease had been deemed to pose a risk to patients and declared unfit for On staffing, will the Minister set out how many additional purpose. The panel went on to note that many of the staff needed to be appointed to the acute oncology existing buildings and much of the estate used by the service in July last year, when the report was published, cancer centre was and the progress that has been made in tackling those staffing shortages? I understand from the answer that I “dilapidated and not fit for purpose. There is a need for considerable investment in buildings, equipment replacement and IT connectivity”, received on 21 October in response to another written parliamentary question that I tabled that a business as well as staff. case for additional staff in that area was developed and Mount Vernon is a nationally recognised specialist approved. Will the Minister release the business case cancer service, up there alongside the likes of the Royal and confirm how many of the staff positions approved Marsden or the Christie in Manchester, so for it to be so for recruitment have been filled? dilapidated and so short-staffed when cancer diagnoses are rising is deeply worrying. The panel recommended a The short-term action plan noted that robust change in the trust managing the service and, crucially, implementation of policies concerning admission criteria, that some parts of the service—it would appear in daily consultant rounds and patient reviews was necessary, practice to be most—be relocated to a hospital with which would require additional medical staffing. Again, comprehensive acute services. The report insisted that it would be good for the number of extra clinicians significant capital investment should be made available needed from July last year to be published, and to know to address the need for a full or even partial move of the what progress has been made in tackling those staffing service. It argued that the buildings and wider estate shortages. The answer to my written parliamentary used for cancer services should then be managed by the question suggested that a proposal for an enhanced NHS trust actually providing the services to strengthen seven-days-a-week consultant model and robust outreach operational control. medical acute oncology service provision had been Professor Slevin made it clear that he and his colleagues developed. Was it approved? Can the business case be were greatly impressed by the determination of staff to released, and the House informed of progress on its continue to provide the best quality care that they could implementation? in the difficult circumstances they were working under. I tabled a further written parliamentary question, He also noted the consistently positive feedback from which was answered on 10 February. That answer did patients about the care they receive at Mount Vernon—a not give me confidence that enough action was being point that many of my constituents who have used the taken to tackle the immediate critical vacancies. The service have underlined to me. Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Mount Vernon is a part of the NHS that I have the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), known for a long time, having used the minor injuries said in her answer that there was a 25% vacancy rate centre a number of times and having campaigned to for nurses at Mount Vernon Cancer Centre, an almost save its then accident and emergency department in the 10% vacancy rate for medical staff, an almost 30% vacancy mid-1990s. More than 1,000 residents in Harrow use the rate for clinical support staff, and an 8% vacancy gap service each year, and I have yet to hear a negative view for scientific, therapeutic and technical staff. Given the of the professionals there. My constituents and I are seriousness of the findings in Professor Slevin’s report, I keen to ensure that the service is maintained to a high am surprised that more progress has not been made in standard and that it stays on the Mount Vernon site, or reducing those vacancy rates. in the next best scenario, in an area local to Mount It is the long-term future of Mount Vernon Cancer Vernon. Critically,we need a sustained period of investment Centre that most exercises my constituents, and no in staff, buildings and equipment. I now believe that doubt many others in surrounding areas who depend despite University College London Hospitals coming on its service. The impact of the lack of capital investment on board, there is no plan to shift Mount Vernon’s is obvious to any visitor or patient. The acid test of the cancer service to central London, but it would be good commitment of Ministers to the future of Mount Vernon to hear that confirmed by the Minister. Cancer Centre is whether they will invest in the new 335WH Mount Vernon Cancer Centre4 MARCH 2020 Mount Vernon Cancer Centre 336WH
[Gareth Thomas] for owning the future of Mount Vernon, and it is not hard to understand why, despite two concerning Care linear accelerators that the service needs.Linear accelerators Quality Commission reports in the past five years, there are fundamental to the delivery of radiotherapy services, might have been a lack of NHS focus until now on but are costly to put in place. Mount Vernon has seven, Mount Vernon’s future. six of which are due to reach the end of their normal I understand too that a further transfer of responsibility operational lives over the next three years. for Mount Vernon’s future from NHS East of England Professor Slevin’s report last summer noted the age of to NHS London is inevitable when University College the linear accelerators, or LINACs, and an answer to London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust takes over another written parliamentary question on 11 February direct responsibility for the cancer centre. Given that, noted some of the costs of replacing LINACs, particularly and given the number of Ministers in the Department if they were being moved to a new site. A day earlier, an of Health and Social Care who have answered my answer to another written parliamentary question noted questions about Mount Vernon so far—answers for that three of the seven linear accelerators were due to be which I am very grateful—it would be good to know replaced this year, with three more due in 2022. Will the who among the Secretary of State’s ministerial team three linear accelerators due for replacement this year will continue to have immediate and ongoing responsibility be replaced and, if not, why not? for the project. If it is the Minister present today, given Professor Slevin’s report noted that the brachytherapy his seniority within the Department, I am sure that my service at Mount Vernon Cancer Centre is nationally constituents and I would welcome that news. recognised, but access to theatres for treatment is This 117-year-old hospital is not one of the six named “constrained”. What is the long-term plan to sort that for rebuilding or one of the 40 for which a rebuild or issue? The report also noted the desire of East and upgrade appears to be on the cards over the next five North Hertfordshire NHS Trust and the Hertfordshire years. Unsurprisingly, I have been asked whether Mount sustainability and transformation partnership to see Vernon Cancer Centre is set to close. The omens certainly Mount Vernon Cancer Centre’s services re-provided in do not look good, but assuming that that is not Ministers’ fit-for-purpose buildings, replacing the oldest facilities. intentions, and that central London is not their intention Indeed, so old and decrepit are the buildings that for a move either, that would suggest a local move—to leaking roofs have forced “adjustments in service provision”. Hillingdon Hospital or Watford General Hospital, where Nine months on, I ask the Minister whether there are I understand that upgrades have been announced or are still leaking roofs at Mount Vernon, forcing more of the planned. Failing those two options, either Northwick cancer centre’s services to be moved. There are insufficient Park Hospital or Stevenage, Cambridge or Luton is rooms for medical staff, specialist nurses, dieticians and likely. speech and language therapists, inadequate electronic My constituents and others deserve to know that the systems and poor IT connectivity, slowing the clinical problems of Mount Vernon Cancer Centre are being process. There is no direct real-time connection of the sorted out. To give confidence to that end, transparency X-ray systems between Mount Vernon Cancer Centre for the local community is essential. Given the seriousness and hospitals in its catchment area, undermining the of Mount Vernon’s situation, regular quarterly updates effectiveness of clinical management. that are easy to understand and that offer a route to The report stresses that the impact of poor IT track progress are surely not much to ask for all those infrastructure should not be underestimated. Duplicate who use the cancer centre. To make such updates helpful, paper records, a lack of access to complete scanning they should include consistent answers to three fundamental images out of hours, and an inability to view a continuing questions. First, what extra staff does Mount comprehensive patient record lead to clinical risk. In Vernon need and what is being done to fill the vacancies? short, doctors cannot access the results of critical CT Secondly, will the three linear accelerators due to be and MRI scans out of hours. In the short term, according replaced this year be replaced? Thirdly, when will a to the answer to a written parliamentary question that I decision be made on Mount Vernon’s future, who will received on 11 February, a plan to digitise patient care have a say in it, and how can they be influenced? I hope records at Mount Vernon is expected to be ready for that the Minister will agree to give those updates. implementation in May this year. Has the funding been Lastly, it would be remiss of me not to mention the identified to allow that to happen or will it have to wait fact that, earlier this week, a clinician at Mount Vernon for a full review of the future of Mount Vernon Cancer Cancer Centre was suspected of having coronavirus. I Centre to be completed? I hope that it is the former. understand that, after testing by Public Health England, Professor Slevin’s report left the exact long-term future the member of staff has fortunately proven to be negative for Mount Vernon unresolved. A strategic review of for the virus. Inevitably, that initial concern will have Mount Vernon Cancer Centre to resolve that question been profoundly worrying for staff and patients. It is a is expected to be completed sometime this year, according further tribute to the professionalism of the staff at to the answer given on 11 February to my written Mount Vernon Cancer Centre that they have maintained parliamentary question. Who will lead that review, what care and the high standards for which they have a deserved clinical expertise will they have, and how can we be sure reputation. I look forward to the Minister’s response. that they will see it through to completion? What is the timeline for that review? 4.29 pm Part of the problem for Mount Vernon Cancer Centre is that the Mount Vernon site is owned by Hillingdon The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): I thank the Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, while East Herts hon. Member for Harrow West (Gareth Thomas) for NHS Trust runs the cancer service. Add in the confusion securing this debate on the future of Mount Vernon regarding which part of NHS England is responsible cancer centre. I know that the provision and location of 337WH Mount Vernon Cancer Centre4 MARCH 2020 Mount Vernon Cancer Centre 338WH radiotherapy services is of great interest to many hon. that the strategic review of that centre’s long-term future Members, and I was delighted to meet my hon. Friend was launched by NHS England and NHS Improvement the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) and in May 2019. The review began with an independent my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for clinical advisory group visiting the site and speaking North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) earlier this with staff and patients. Its report advised that the month to discuss aspects of this matter as it relates to current service model was not clinically sustainable, as their constituencies and their campaigns for a satellite the hon. Gentleman has said, and recommended that radiotherapy centre, working with Mount Vernon to leadership of services from a specialist tertiary cancer help serve their constituents. provider would be key to future service development The hon. Gentleman rightly paid tribute to the work and sustainability, staff recruitment and retention, and of the staff at Mount Vernon—not just the work that enabling patient access to clinical trials. I am happy to they are and will be doing to help deal with coronavirus, provide him with more details in writing, if that is but the work that they do day in, day out, for his helpful. Indeed, if I am unable to answer all of his constituents and many others. I join him in paying detailed questions in the course of today’s debate, I will tribute to their work and dedication. He has made a write to him with detailed answers as soon as possible. typically courteous but powerful case for investment in The hon. Gentleman asked specifically how the review that hospital and in the services that serve his constituents. would work, who was leading it, and who would be If I may, I will say a little bit about cancer care more involved in it. It is being led by a programme board broadly before I turn to the specifics of what he has said chaired by the NHS regional director of specialised regarding Mount Vernon. commissioning and health and justice for the east Improving cancer treatment remains a priority for of England. That board includes representatives from this Government, and survival rates are at a high. Since Healthwatch Hillingdon, Healthwatch Hertfordshire, 2010, rates of survival from cancer have increased year London and the East of England Cancer Alliance, as on year, but we know there is more to do nationally. well as local sustainability and transformation partnerships, That is why the NHS long-term plan states how the clinical commissioning groups and a number of acute Government will achieve their ambition of seeing three hospitals. They all sit on that board and are active quarters of all cancers— participants. If it is helpful to the hon. Gentleman, rather than simply giving him the job titles, I can seek to Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): furnish him with some names—those of the senior Will the Minister give way? leadership, at least.
Edward Argar: I will. The hon. Gentleman said that the independent clinical advisory group made recommendations for short-term actions, including addressing urgent backlog maintenance Sir Oliver Heald: I am grateful to the Minister for of existing clinical facilities and the strengthening of giving way, and apologise to the sponsor of the debate, acute oncology services. The current provider, East and the hon. Member for Harrow West (Gareth Thomas). North Hertfordshire NHS Trust, supported those Does the Minister agree that both of the preferred recommendations. In January of this year, following options put forward for Mount Vernon include a satellite evaluation of proposals from interested trusts, University radiotherapy centre in our area of Hertfordshire? I College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust was hope that will form part of the Minister’s thinking, as it selected as the preferred provider, subject to a period of seemed to during our recent discussion. due diligence. Depending on the outcome of that due diligence, the contract for running the site should transfer Edward Argar: I am grateful to my right hon. and in April next year, with UCLH providing additional learned Friend for his intervention. He is right about leadership support for that site over the next 14 months. the importance of satellite radiotherapy centres for his constituents and for large parts of Hertfordshire. He The hon. Gentleman mentioned backlog maintenance, and others have made a powerful case and I have which I have touched on. He is right to have done so, considerable sympathy for it. I find it compelling and I because, as he knows, backlog maintenance has increased am looking at ways in which we might be able to deliver in recent years. Although the trust received £33 million on that for his constituents and those of other colleagues of central capital in 2019 to tackle critical infrastructure in the area. issues across the estate, monitored by NHSE&I, I know As I was saying, the long-term plan sets out how the that it continues to be of concern. Although I do not Government will achieve their ambition for three quarters wish to prejudge the future capital settlement and the of all cancers to be detected at an early stage, and for capital spending review,the hon. Gentleman has powerfully 55,000 more people to survive cancer for five years in made the point that the capital needs of his hospital England each year from 2028. That plan includes providing and his trust should be considered in any future allocations new investment in state-of-the-art technology to transform of capital funding. the process of diagnosis and boost research and innovation. The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of access to NHS England has committed more than £1.3 billion in brachytherapy services, which will be wrapped up in the funding over the next five years to deliver the long-term review that is currently under way. Regarding the future plan’s commitments on cancer. location of services, I can assure him and hon. Members I suspect that the hon. Member for Harrow West will that options for the short-term and long-term future of say, “That is great, but what does it mean for Mount the centre are being actively considered by the clinical Vernon, my constituents and my constituency?” He has advisory group and NHSE&I, with the local area and set out the background of what has gone on at Mount the hon. Gentleman’s hospital at the forefront of their Vernon cancer centre, and of the review. He will know thinking. When I write to him, I suspect he might wish 339WH Mount Vernon Cancer Centre4 MARCH 2020 Mount Vernon Cancer Centre 340WH
[Edward Argar] In response to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire, I have touched me to be a little firmer in my reassurances. As far as on satellite radiotherapy centres. Alongside working I am able, subject to that review, I will endeavour with the Mount Vernon Cancer Centre, we are proactively to do so. looking at providing satellite radiotherapy centres for The hon. Gentleman also talked about staffing issues his constituents in the northern part of Hertfordshire at the hospital. Existing clinical leads at Mount Vernon and around Stevenage. It is too early to say exactly how have increased their leadership duties at the hospital we might do that, but I am determined to work proactively alongside their clinical responsibilities. Recruitment of with colleagues to see if we can achieve it. a full-time clinical director will take place in conjunction We are committed to the digitisation of paper records, with the new provider, once it is appointed. The hon. which the hon. Member for Harrow West mentioned, to Gentleman mentioned the business case for appointing enable effective patient care and enhanced patient safety. additional staff to the acute oncology service that has The digital transformation plan, which will include the been developed and submitted to NHS England. My digitisation of patient care records, is under way for understanding is that the business case has been approved Mount Vernon’s main acute services and is expected to and recruitment has begun. I will take up with NHS conclude in May 2020. I understand that the commitment England his request that he have sight of it and—ideally to do that—to support and fund it—remains unchanged. from his perspective, I think—that it be made publicly If anything has changed, I will make sure that he is available. I do not know what the answer will be, but I updated as appropriate. will certainly ask that question, because it does not seem an unreasonable request. There are a number of hon. Members present. I suspect they are not here to hear my or the hon. Regarding whether the three linear accelerators due Gentleman’s eloquence, but possibly that of other hon. for replacement this year are going to be replaced, my Members and, indeed, my right hon. Friend the Financial latest understanding is that although East and North Secretary to the Treasury, who will take part in the Hertfordshire NHS Trust has not yet agreed its full debate that will start in a few minutes. Given the interest, capital programme for the 2020-21 financial year, it has however, I will see if it is appropriate to put in the identified a requirement for capital funding, which the Library a copy of my letter to the hon. Gentleman so board will consider in that context. As soon as I hear that it is on the record. the outcome of those decisions, I will write to the hon. Gentleman, who, as ever, makes his case politely but If the hon. Gentleman thinks it would be useful, I am forcefully. More broadly, as he will be aware, NHS happy to meet him and to visit Mount Vernon with him England has invested £130 million in the modernisation to meet the staff, to hear the executive team’s thinking of radiotherapy across England, ensuring that older on what is going on, and to see it for myself. He raised a linear accelerators—that is, radiotherapy machines—used number of detailed and precise questions and important by hospitals are upgraded. We have made significant points. In the short time I have had, I have sought to progress.I think the hon. Gentleman’srequest acknowledges reassure him and address a number of them, but I look that, but he is essentially saying, “Yes, I have been given forward to the opportunity to give him a more detailed a promise, but please make sure that the delivery follows.” answer in writing following the debate, and to visit him. The decision on the trust’s investment priorities rightly sits with the board, and we will wait for that decision, I reassure hon. Members that cancer, and improving but I will make sure that what the hon. Gentleman has cancer treatment and care, remains a key priority for said is communicated to the board. I suspect he will the Government and the Department. We, along with make sure of that as well, but I will ensure that the NHSE&I and other arm’s length bodies, are working board is aware of his views. hard to ensure that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and those of all hon. Members are provided with the The hon. Gentleman suggested quarterly updates to best care. track progress against a basket of key indicators or asks in the context of the action plan. I hesitate to give a Although cancer care and cancer services are the clear commitment until I have had the opportunity to responsibility of the Under-Secretary of State for Health talk to the trust and NHS England, but what I will and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury say—I hope gives him an indication of my thinking—is St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), given that a large amount that it sounds like an eminently practical and reasonable of what the hon. Gentleman has talked about relates to request to ensure that he, other interested parties and performance and to capital and funding, which are in his constituents are kept informed about and engaged my portfolio, I will endeavour to maintain a personal with a process that will, of course, be of concern to direct interest in the issue, in partnership with my hon. them but also of interest as well. It sounds reasonable—I Friend, to make sure that we both give it the attention it am not aware of a factor that makes it unreasonable—and deserves and that he and his constituents have a right to I will certainly press that point, because I think it is a expect. sensible way forward. Question put and agreed to. 341WH 4 MARCH 2020 VAT (Listed Properties) 342WH
VAT (Listed Properties) Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there was a missed opportunity in 2008, when the ECOFIN conference in Helsinki agreed that VAT 4.44 pm could be reduced to 5% on labour-intensive industries, which include building repair and renovation? Despite Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con): I beg to the best efforts of hon. Members, successive Governments move, have refused to take advantage of that opportunity, That this House has considered VAT on listed properties. which would have been of great benefit to areas such It is a pleasure, as ever,to serve under your chairmanship, as his constituency and mine, where there is a high Sir Christopher. I apologise again to the Minister, whom concentration of listed buildings, very low incomes and I seem to drag to Westminster Hall on a fairly regular a reduced ability for people to renovate their houses. basis on tax issues. This debate is about VAT on listed properties, which come in all shapes and sizes. They can Craig Mackinlay: I was not aware of that ECOFIN be modest country cottages, terraced houses, farmhouses conference. Any country under the EU VAT regime has and former industrial buildings being brought into some always had the ability to reduce VAT to 5% on items, other type of use. They are spread across the entire UK. but the problem is that it is a ratchet, so once VAT has John Howell (Henley) (Con): Tothat list, I add churches, been implemented on something, it can never return to which are also listed buildings. Does my hon. Friend zero. That has been a feature and problem of our VAT think that the grant scheme is adequate and properly membership. We have had various discussions about replaces VAT in the way that it is carried out? that in the main Chamber on the so-called tampon tax.
Craig Mackinlay: The listed places of worship grant Hywel Williams: That particular dispensation was for scheme has been in place since 2001. It has been taken labour-intensive industries and, at that time, certain up by 89% of churches; one third take up the scheme countries reduced their VAT.For example, France reduced every year; and most churches, over the cycle, have used VAT on restaurant meals; Italy reduced VAT on building it six times. It is working quite well, but obviously it is renovation and repair; and Belgium reduced VAT on not as clean as a pure exemption. I will come on to bicycle maintenance and repair. The reduction in Italy analyse that further. was an alleged example—a rare or perhaps unique Listed properties are owned by the normal cross-section example—of the Laffer curve in operation in that, when of the population. The beautiful town of Sandwich in VAT was reduced, receipts to the state increased massively my constituency is home to more listed properties than as people moved out of the dark economy. any other town in the country.It is one of the best-preserved medieval towns in England. I want to do everything I can to help to preserve it and the other great medieval Craig Mackinlay: The hon. Member shows his great towns across our country. wealth and breadth of experience of international VAT matters, and I stand educated. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I congratulate my hon. I want to do everything that I can to help preserve Friend on securing this important debate for those of us our great medieval towns. Listed properties are not who represent areas like Sandwich that have a high grand ancestral piles; a huge majority are very modest preponderance of listed buildings. There are more than properties that are owned and loved by normal people. 3,000 in my constituency. They are often in rural areas Private listed property owners are protecting the vast where properties are remote, isolated and, in many majority of Britain’s built heritage out of their own cases, hard to heat. I hope that he will talk about the pocket, but the costs for doing repairs and renovations opportunity to reduce VAT to, say, 5% on renewable have risen sharply in recent years. energy initiatives in listed properties, which the Minister might want to take into account in the forthcoming Budget or the comprehensive spending review later Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): this year. Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the great challenges with climate change and pollution is tackling some of Craig Mackinlay: My right hon. Friend makes an the problems with the heating and insulation of such important point for people who have older properties, properties? If they are listed, there are features that have which are expensive to heat. We have ambitions to be to be protected in the process, so it is an expensive carbon neutral by 2050, so the current regime of charging business. It is very much in the national interest that full VATon trying to do the right thing for the Government’s these changes should be made, and it is only right that other ambitions seems somewhat perverse. the Treasury should consider whether previous concessions could be reintroduced. Philip Dunne: My hon. Friend will remember that it was introduced by the EU. We had to reduce the previous Craig Mackinlay: My right hon. Friend makes a very concession as a result of an EU directive. Now we are good point. There have been certain schemes over the free from EU directives, we may be able to be more years for wood pellet-type boilers, and grants have been liberal in our interpretation of VAT laws. available, but he highlights the unique features of older Craig Mackinlay: We are branching into another properties. It is often not feasible or possible to put in a area, but my right hon. Friend is correct. Just a few cheap, efficient gas boiler, which other property owners months ago, we were forced to raise the rating on small might be able to do. renewable units from 5% to 20% because we lost a I turn to the obvious desire to insulate homes and European Court of Justice judgment. That is quite make them more energy efficient. It is a very reasonable perverse in the current environment. desire, because a lot of listed properties are draughty 343WH VAT (Listed Properties)4 MARCH 2020 VAT (Listed Properties) 344WH
[Craig Mackinlay] I secured the debate to join thousands of listed property owners in calling on the Government to introduce a and old and do not have modern insulation. They are form of VAT relief. Preferably, let us go back to where expensive to heat, which adds to the costs of being a we were: a reduction from the 20% rate back to zero, listed property owner. which would be a great place to be. That will be possible in the post-Brexit world, but we are currently in our Sir Oliver Heald: My hon. Friend will be aware that implementation period, so 5% could be achieved at the North East Hertfordshire is one of the constituencies Budget next week. that has a high number of listed properties, many of Maintaining listed buildings has a lot more in common them modest. Does he agree that the situation in urban with other kinds of building work that has a lower rate areas is different from that in rural areas? If someone of VAT. Some energy-efficient measures qualify for the lives in a rural area with a significant number of listed 5% rate—obviously a restriction was introduced recently, buildings, there has to be some sort of level playing field which seemed rather perverse. Converting houses into to try to help them make the relevant changes. flats, and renovating empty properties that have lain empty for two years qualify for a lower VAT rate of 5%. Craig Mackinlay: My right hon. Friend makes a The Government and Treasury quite rightly want to perfect point about country living, as opposed to living encourage bringing such properties into use, and that in towns, because cheaper piped gas is often not available. nudge effect is advanced through the lower VAT rate. People might have Calor-style units in their garden, or Of course, the biggest anomaly of all—a correct they might rely on solid fuels such as coal. We had anomaly, in my view—is that we have had a zero VAT discussions, dare I say, with the Government last week rating on new builds since we became a member of the and advanced various measures that I cannot say I fully EU. There is a long history to this type of debate, going agree with at this time. back to the 1940s. We had the Town and Country In 2012, we got to the point where the zero VAT Planning Acts 1944 and 1947, which implemented the rating for authorised alterations to listed properties listing system that we know today. Even back then, the was removed. The owners of 500,000 listed buildings Government knew that they were imposing upon listed across the country, 98% of which are privately owned, property owners a new range of probably unwelcome then suffered a potential increase of 20% in anything that regulations, and that they had to give something in they do to keep their properties in a good state of repair. return. The something in return was a zero VAT rating As listed property owners often say, an individual never or, before 1972, sales tax exemptions for this type of really owns a listed property, but is merely borrowing it. work. It is essential that we have a lower rate of VAT on Before the 2012 Budget, the zero VAT rating was listed properties, because we want to give people the available as long as people had applied for the proper opportunity to make the necessary improvements to listed property consent with the local authority. As hon. this country’s built heritage. Members know, such consent is often costly to obtain In the 2012 debate—that year’s Budget did not go and requires input from specialists, including architects down too well, because there were quite a few VAT and building control, the navigation of the local planning measures in it—the then Prime Minister, David Cameron, system and a variety of interpretations by conservation said that the reason for the change was to prevent an officers. All of that is on a scale that is wholly different exemption for a from that of people who do not live in listed properties, “big swimming pool in a listed Tudor house”.—[Official Report, and such requirements all add costs—even before having 18 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 319.] the bespoke works required. That was a fairly thin argument, because I do not think The all-party parliamentary group on listed properties, it was taken up by too many of the 500,000 listed of which I have been the chairman, is currently being property owners. If such behaviour was going on, we re-established. It has evidence that the addition of VAT could have exempted that from the zero VAT rating in reduced the number of recorded works being carried isolation. out to protect and maintain listed properties by some 30% in the first four years, between 2012 and 2016. There was a notable and recorded drop in applications Hywel Williams: Perhaps I can reinforce the hon. for proper conservation works. One can only guess what Member’s point by declaring an interest. When I bought was happening. Were people simply not bothering to go my listed house some 20 years ago—very cheaply, I through the process? Owing to the extra cost, were they should say—it came with a name from my children. simply deciding to make do with where they were? They called it the pizza house, because it came with There was a full 75% drop in applications over just three added mushrooms growing out of the walls. It certainly years, subsequent to the change in the VAT rules. did not have a swimming pool, but I, like everyone else, These works will be of ongoing economic benefit, had to pay 20% VAT on the renovation. I think that often creating a new home where one did not exist strengthens the point that he is making. before or converting an older property into a business premises. They are positive goods that would perhaps Craig Mackinlay: The hon. Member makes that point take pressure away from new builds on green spaces. I well. Such properties need significant renovations that have spoken to many listed property owners who face are not the norm when buying newer-type properties. financial hardship. Many have been forced to sell their We need to make listed buildings properties that people home as a result of costs increasing by 20%. It has to want to own, to spend money on, and to do the right be said that a tax on listed buildings is not a tax on thing by maintaining them. Maintenance costs for those the wealthy, but a tax on attempts to protect our properties can simply huge, so offsetting some of that cultural heritage. cost would make a meaningful impact. 345WH VAT (Listed Properties)4 MARCH 2020 VAT (Listed Properties) 346WH
What is VAT there for? It was always designed to be a and cash-in-hand deals, which are not too far away tax on consumption. Painstakingly maintaining a national from most street corners. The Isle of Man scheme was heritage asset should not be considered consumption, meant to be an experiment but, owing to its success, it is but action in the national interest. Not only is the now permanent. economic cost of the work often more expensive than The Listed Property Owners Club keeps vast records other work, the VAT is an additional tax for doing the on activity in the listed property market. There has been right thing. Removing the VAT does not give money a drop in listed property applications to local councils back to the owners; it simply means that the Exchequer and in works being undertaken. Figures from Historic does not gain a little bit from the maintenance of the England show that cost was one of the biggest reasons fabric of the nation. for works not being carried out. The numbers are Across the country, the built environment of our significant: in 2017, 30% of people said it was just too great towns and cities drives tourism and the continuation costly and that they were not going to do the work at of many historic building skills. Government policy in all. Another reason is that specialist local skills are the national policy planning framework, as well as dying out. In 2017, 17% of people could not get works guidance from Historic England, state that heritage done because they simply could not find a qualified protection must enable buildings to stay in active use trader. Historic Houses suggests that £1.3 billion of and alterations can support that. If owners make changes outstanding work to listed properties is being put off or to their properties without any impact on historic features not carried out at all. That is money that people would that is considered a positive outcome, as it enables the want to spend if they could afford it and if VAT were continued use of such properties. The old way of removing reduced. VAT by zero-rating the renovation was simple, easy and I have not been quiet on this topic. I corresponded reasonable. There is no reason not to return to that with the Minister just a few weeks ago, and I can pretty simple scheme. anticipate some of the arguments that he may make in Hon. Members have mentioned energy efficiency. response. He might say that the rationale for the removal The type of energy efficiency required of older buildings of the zero rating was to restore or to address a VAT is vastly different from more modern buildings. Materials anomaly, but we already have anomalies, with zero-rated are likely to be different, and the skills required to make new builds and the two-year lower VAT rate for bringing such properties more energy efficient are different. We a property back into use. He might say that it was unfair do not want those listed properties to fall out of use, that some people got a relief, while others did not. We and support would help to keep them in use. As has are not talking about normal properties, however. We been accepted within other parts of the VAT code, are talking about unique skills, because very expensive renovations can be at a lower rate of VAT if properties bespoke repairs are often required. have been out of use for two years, so reductions are not Getting new PVC windows done is VAT-able, but unusual. there are a vast number of companies that can do that Works on listed buildings are often carried out by and it is a cut-throat industry. The approach to a listed tradesmen who specialise in conservation work. They building is different, because it will often need bespoke are often small local businesses, rather than big corporates, wooden frames made at three or four times the price. so a reduction in VAT would increase correspondingly That is an anomaly, and I am asking for an exemption the amount of activity and would be a boost to a small from VAT on those bespoke works. Even without the and declining sector. Cutting VAT would encourage VAT, those bespoke works would still be far more investment in skills in those types of artisanal works, expensive than most standard products that are taxed at and could encourage more young people into a sector the 20% rate. that struggles to recruit. The increased taxable profits in The old VAT relief used to nudge people towards the those businesses would benefit the Treasury in corporation painful experience of applying for listed property consent, tax and income tax receipts. Cutting VAT would prime because saving 20% on a repair bill was seen as a good the pump in that whole area. thing. That made sure that conservation works were up It is estimated that, through tourism, heritage across to the proper local standard, because there was an the country contributes £31 billion of value added to incentive. A worry is that people are undertaking the economy. Those homes make our towns desirable inappropriate repairs to their properties to save money places to visit, whether they are in Sandwich or in the and, because enforcement by the local authority is constituency of Bath, which is represented in the Chamber. highly unlikely, they are willing to take that risk. That is Who benefits from that tourism? Local businesses. There not a good place to be; I want to encourage people to is not much in it for the public, who are busy maintaining do the right thing with their properties. their own properties rather than attracting tourists. Another scheme that has been running for a very An interesting example is the Isle of Man, which has long time is the listed places of worship scheme, which been through a similar process, following an argument was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for similar argument to one that I am advancing. The Isle Henley (John Howell). Through Government grants, of Man has reduced VAT on such repair work to 5%, the scheme pays for the VAT that listed places of worship but only for the labour element. Some 96% of the Isle’s suffer—that could be implemented in lieu of a full zero construction firms have reported increased workloads; rating. The scheme seems to work, and 89% of such 43% have reported taking on more staff; and 40% places have used it. Over the period, many churches reported that their clients were having work done that have used it five or six times, and a third of all churches they would otherwise have put off or not had done at use it annually. The Treasury might say, “It’s complicated all. There was a significant move away both from the and cumbersome”, but 13,000 applications have been owners having a go and carrying out work with which managed effectively. It seems to work—if that is a they are not fully conversant, and from rogue traders method HMRC will consider—but the simpler method 347WH VAT (Listed Properties)4 MARCH 2020 VAT (Listed Properties) 348WH
[Craig Mackinlay] emergency and overheating, sometimes the listed building might provide an answer. Previous generations knew would be to go back to what we had before, which was well how to keep cool. I have the privilege of sometimes zero rating if the proper listed property consent had being invited into beautiful properties in Bath, and been granted by the local authority. have talked about the shutters that still exist in some of To summarise, we can achieve what I would like to the older buildings. Previous generations knew how to achieve by two means: either we go back to where we use shutters effectively. It is important to work with were before the 2012 Budget; or we go to a scheme akin people who own listed buildings and are interested in to the listed places of worship grant scheme—so by the history of how we used to live, and for people to put means of a grant, which might make it targeted and their mind to understanding the history and often the would certainly prevent the swimming pool in the Tudor benefits of what previous generations knew about mansion. Now we are not so bound by rules on VAT, we healthy living. have an opportunity. We can create our own framework If the Government are to take their net zero obligations that is right for our country, and I would like the seriously, financial support and incentives are vital to Treasury to be part of people doing the right thing— reduce carbon emissions from listed buildings.The simplest improving, maintaining and repairing their properties. I way, and a necessary first step, for the Government to have heard no great reason why the perceived anomaly ease this financial burden is for VAT relief to be extended was an anomaly at all, given that many charitable from simply covering alterations to applying to all institutions receive VAT relief and other building works renovations and improvements in listed properties,especially have a variety of VAT reliefs. We could push training, where aimed at reducing carbon emissions and getting skills and profits into declining trades, and unleash a lot to net zero. of pent-up expenditure into a market that is part of the Extending VAT relief would help the thousands of good fabric of the country. Next week, I will be delighted private owners of listed buildings in Bath and beyond to to hear about some movement of support. preserve important historical properties and to tackle the climate emergency. I do not want to argue with the 5.11 pm hon. Member for South Thanet about whether it was Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): I congratulate the hon. worth leaving the European Union so that the 2%, Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) on securing the listed building owners, can get VAT relief, but it this debate, which is very relevant to my constituency. would be somewhat perverse—or hypocritical—of the I have already had many discussions with relevant bodies, Government not to use their freedom to look at VAT in particular the UNESCO world heritage site body, on relief on listed properties in this country. Britain attracts the need to get to net zero. I am especially worried thousands—millions—of tourists every year because of about listed buildings in the context of the climate its wonderful built heritage. We need to ensure that we emergency. preserve it and, at the same time, to take our climate That is an important issue, particularly for my change and net zero obligations seriously. constituency. With about 5,000 listed buildings, Bath has the highest concentration in the UK other than here 5.16 pm in Westminster. The Bath and North East Somerset—or BANES—Council has the highest number of listed Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): It is a pleasure building consent applications, at 700 last year. In Bath, to see you in the Chair, Sir Christopher. the wish to continue and maintain our built heritage is I thank the hon. Member for South Thanet (Craig very much alive, but there is a burden on those who own Mackinlay) for securing this debate, which is on an the buildings. I am very much aware of that. issue that is overdue for some action. I certainly hope That situation is not a coincidence. I am proud that that the Government will take it on board. Bath has been a pioneer in protecting buildings of The SNP has argued for a reduction in VAT for interest since the 1880s. Listed buildings and how to energy improvement measures in homes. We asked for maintain our built heritage is very much a Bath issue. reductions in VAT for more modern buildings, those As the buildings age, the challenges of preserving them affected by the cladding scandal. I agree with the hon. have grown. In addition, we now face the challenge of Gentleman that there is a strong argument to do that the climate emergency, so the urgency of upgrading for listed buildings as well. Research by the Federation listed buildings has only grown. of Master Builders demonstrates that cutting VAT for The housing stock in this country is our largest energy-efficiency improvements, for example, would producer of carbon emissions and millions of homes significantly boost the UK economy and generate thousands will need to be made much more energy-efficient over of jobs, bring empty properties back into use, improve the coming decades if we are to have any chance of the energy efficiency of our housing stock, reduce the achieving net zero. That poses a significant enough task incidence of fuel poverty, and protect consumers and for most homeowners but, for those who own the 2% of legitimate businesses by significantly reducing the total housing stock that is listed, the challenge is greater competitive advantage of rogue traders. and more expensive, as we have heard. This debate has The hon. Gentleman went into some of the history of to be about not the swimming pool, which might add the measures we are debating and how they came about. value to a property, but the maintenance of heritage In 2012, when the then Chancellor proposed levying and tackling the climate emergency. VAT on listed properties, the Scottish Government Culture Listed buildings are likely to be older and therefore Secretary, Fiona Hyslop—I note she is still in her post, less insulated, and to have less efficient heating systems despite the UK Government being on their fourth than other properties. Coincidentally, though, older Chancellor since then—said in a written answer to a properties keep cooler, so if we look at the climate parliamentary question in Holyrood: 349WH VAT (Listed Properties)4 MARCH 2020 VAT (Listed Properties) 350WH
“The UK Government’s proposal is clearly a deeply regrettable Crescent. They all have different characters: the working- step in the opposite direction from the approach that the Scottish class neighbourhoods of Bridgeton have a beautiful Ministers advocate. cross, which would see the benefit of further repairs. It Maintaining the VAT relief on alterations to listed buildings, is very different in character from West Pollokshields, and reducing the VAT rate applicable to repairs and maintenance, where there are bigger houses. would be important positive steps which would stimulate economic activity in a sector worth around £2.3 billion gross value added”— All those areas need repair and maintenance, because times have changed since the Victorians built them. to Scotland’s economy alone— They need continual maintenance and repair to avoid “a significant proportion of which is attributable to construction dramatic tenement collapses, which do happen on occasion activity.” in the city. That is because, despite the best efforts of At the time, she wrote to the Chancellor, organisations such as the Glasgow City Heritage Trust, which pays out building repair grants, development “urging him to withdraw from this policy”, grants and grants that go towards those traditional but, as we know, that is not always taken on. However, skills, they are just papering over the cracks of a larger there is always an opportunity for the Government to problem of the maintenance of tenement stock. My reflect on the error of their ways—perhaps they would hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David be wise to do so. Linden) has also made the argument in the House that we need to look at these issues and find ways of tackling There are many arguments around the subject, and the burden on cities. Reducing that 20% VAT rate as low rationales about Tudor swimming pools and the like as we can would have a huge impact on our ability to have been given, but this is not about people in big deal with that. mansions getting their houses repaired. The reality is that half of listed properties in this country are occupied The social cost of derelict and damaged buildings is by people at the very low end of the socioeconomic huge. They are deeply uninspiring for people who live distribution. This is not necessarily about attacks on the next to the sites and look out on them. They are a drag wealthy or just about protecting glorious listed buildings; on aspiration and motivation, and they often serve a this is about the homes that people live in. visual reminder to many people of a distant, out-of-touch Government who neglected the industrialised communities There are 1,840 derelict sites and buildings in Glasgow over generations and left them to rot. The Scottish city; 126 of those are in the listed buildings at risk Government have made some progress in reversing the register. It is no surprise that many are concentrated in situationthroughtheCommunityEmpowerment(Scotland) areas of higher deprivation. People in those areas are Act 2015, which gives community groups the option to three times more likely to live near vacant derelict land, repurpose derelict buildings for the good of the people but they are the same people who benefit most from who live in those communities. The funding to do so having those buildings repaired and brought up to comes from the Scottish Land Fund. Those are standard. community-led, focused actions, instead of the top-down approach that has often failed communities and left them behind. Hywel Williams: There is a particular issue where there is a high concentration of listed buildings in poor From a policy perspective,investment in high-deprivation condition and low incomes. The market in general has a areas makes economic sense. People in those areas are chilling effect on the provision of specialist labour, as much more likely to spend their money locally, and the hon. Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) repurposing buildings to create jobs or businesses has a mentioned. There is a more general effect of the high multiplier effect. Will the Minister look at the issue amplification of housing deprivation when one compares from that point of view,as a good endeavour to incentivise the many hundreds of thousands of new builds,particularly people in those areas? in urban and suburban areas in the south-east, which There are plans afoot in my constituency to refurbish are free of VAT, with buildings such as those in my the old St James Primary School in Calton, to provide a constituency, where 20% VAT is paid. brand-new primary school—a much-needed facility that will, if it goes through, specialise in Gaelic education, to become the next Gaelic school in the city of Glasgow. Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman is correct; it is a The building was built in 1895 but, sadly, stood derelict perverse incentive that a building could be perfectly for 10 years after it was closed by the Glasgow Labour fixable, but it is more cost effective to demolish it and administration. At the time, I was a councillor fighting build something new. We want to incentivise people to to save it, because it was very much the heart of the keep those buildings. In Glasgow, huge swathes of the community. Without it, the community has no hub—all city have been demolished and replaced with newer and people see when they walk past is a derelict building less adequate buildings,which in turn have been demolished, with trees growing out of its roof. The council at the rather than investing in the original buildings. In the time said that it was too difficult to run and too expensive areas where we still have a dense tenemental stock, there to repair: too expensive to get the energy efficiency would be a real benefit to incentivising people to repair measures that were needed; too expensive to fit a boiler those buildings and keep them, because they are to replace the old coal boiler that the janny had to haul fundamentally good and we should have them for the coal into. Making the VAT rate for those kind of future. improvements more incentivised would be a good thing Within the city of Glasgow there are 25 different to do. conservation areas. In my constituency there is Central, In addition, there is a lot to do with identity and the Park, East and West Pollokshields,Dumbreck, Strathbungo, importance of those buildings in communities. I urge Bridgeton, Hazelwood, Walmer Crescent and St Vincent Minister to take action. As hon. Members have said, 351WH VAT (Listed Properties)4 MARCH 2020 VAT (Listed Properties) 352WH
[Alison Thewliss] on low-income areas—also picked up on by the hon. Member for South Thanet—and the lack of a level the excuse of the EU is finished with, sadly—I agree playing field between new build and existing listed with the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) on buildings. Again, because of the existing relief system, that. As the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) if they have been lying unused for a couple of years, or said, some of this has been of our own making, but it is if they are conversions from industrial use, they would now up to the Government to put that right. already be covered by reductions. I have a question for the Minister about another 5.25 pm aspect of the current regime: I understand that there is a zero VAT rate for substantial reconstructions of listed Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): I thank properties if they proceed from a shell. I would like him the hon. Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) to tell me whether HMRC has done any work to consider for securing today’s debate, and for his work in the whether that might have led to the kinds of activities all-party parliamentary group on listed properties to that, sadly, are too well known to us as MPs, whereby a highlight the issues faced by people who own such listed property ends up having a strange fire at some homes. This interesting and well-informed debate has point and its insides are gutted. It would be interesting made it clear that the treatment of construction work is to find out whether HMRC has done any work on that. one of the most complicated areas of VAT law, where There have been a lot of changes to VAT over recent there is a lot of confusion that produces, no question, a years. Any further changes need to be extremely well lot of transaction cost and issues for people interested evidenced and justified. VAT is the third biggest revenue in trying to repair their homes. raiser of the different kinds of tax. We need to consider It has cropped up a little in the debate that there are the dead-weight from proposals of this sort and whether still certain circumstances in which the 5% VAT rate they are appropriately targeted. I accept that reducing applies to construction work on listed properties. VAT VAT probably would be an incentive for additional relief may be possible for VAT-registered contractors repair work, but we need to consider whether that is the on a conversion of a non-residential property into a right mechanism. I was pleased to hear the hon. Member dwelling; where a domestic property has been empty for for South Thanet compare this proposal with the system two years prior to the work; for conversions where the for churches, which does seem to be appropriately targeted. number of residential units changes and becomes more We would need to look at that in relation to questions intensive; where there are changes to introduce mobility about, for example, repairs in low-income areas or aids for the over-60s; and for changes linked to a social among people who do not have the means to make such purpose, for example if social housing is put in listed changes. properties. Zero per cent. VAT also applies to certain On the hon. Gentleman’s comment about the reduction kinds of work for disabled people. All those reliefs are in the number of firms that can carry out specialised targeted; they ensure that properties do not go unused repairs to listed properties, we have seen a reduction in and can be properly adapted for elderly and disabled the number of small building firms generally. It could people. be that that is correlated with what has happened more The debate has been about whether we need a targeted broadly in the economy. That is a worrying development change in relation to repairs to listed properties. On a whatever part of the building trade it occurs in, but we bit of a tangent, there was a little discussion about VAT may need to parse the reasons for that reduction, which on the installation of energy-saving technologies. I agree may be tied to the general state of the property market with the comments of the hon. Member for Glasgow and the recovery from the financial crisis. Central (Alison Thewliss) in that regard—she was spot Finally, I am sure the Minister is sick of me saying on. The comments by the hon. Member for Bath (Wera this, but we need a better evidence base generally for Hobhouse) about the listing system in Bath and what it whether tax reliefs perform what they were set out to has achieved were very interesting, but I question whether do. We have figures for about only 111 of the around a high cost for introducing energy efficiency and renewable 326 tax expenditures that are set out by the Government; energy is unique to the listed sector. it is likely there are more that are not covered. Bodies Others mentioned their personal circumstances; I live such as the International Monetary Fund state that we in an ex-council property that cannot have cavity wall should have as much scrutiny of tax reliefs as we have of insulation because it does not have cavity walls. The spending proposals. I think that is sensible. Although I only thing that could be done would be to clad it in accept that applying for a grant scheme requires brick, which would be pretty expensive. I will not say bureaucracy, claiming many of those tax reliefs requires that that is of the same complexity as many of the an accountant, which is an additional cost for people. changes that might be needed in listed properties, but We must consider carefully whether the proposed relief we need to look at energy saving overall. would be appropriately targeted. Again, I congratulate not just the hon. Member for Wera Hobhouse rose— South Thanet but all Members who participated in the debate. I found it illuminating, and I hope that the Anneliese Dodds: I am not implying at all that the Minister provides answers to some of the questions that hon. Lady would be against broader changes for other were posed. housing, if that is why she wants to intervene. I know that she is a champion of those schemes in Parliament. 5.31 pm When it comes to this specific relief, I share the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): concerns of the hon. Members for Arfon (Hywel Williams) It is a great pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, and for Glasgow Central about the impact of the changes Sir Christopher. I think the debate has shown that this 353WH VAT (Listed Properties)4 MARCH 2020 VAT (Listed Properties) 354WH topic is of great interest in different parts of the country Wera Hobhouse: Would not it therefore make sense and to different parts of our community. There is just to define a little more what the VAT relief is for, widespread interest in it throughout the House, but also rather than scrapping it for everybody? in parts well outside it. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay), who is Jesse Norman: Of course those are two entirely separate indefatigable and is learned in matters of tax, for calling things. To remove a relief is to remove a very blunt and the debate, and all other hon. Members who contributed general instrument that is, by its bluntness and generality, to it. open to abuse. In this case, it had the contradictory effect of potentially disincentivising repairs, because My hon. Friend is known for his expertise in tax. I people focused on extensions, which was directly contrary had suspected he was a Burkean in matters of preservation to the purpose of the legislation. However, as has been of our assets, our national heritage and the priceless recognised with the listed places of worship fund, there inheritance of previous generations, and it was good to can be scope for a more targeted intervention through hear that Burkeanism in action. I salute him for it. I also funds rather than tax reliefs. That is the other option we salute him for his timing; he managed to secure the were given by my hon. Friend the Member for South debate in the lee of a fiscal event that is due at some Thanet. point in the not-too-distant future. I have found the debate engrossing. As my hon. Friend knows better than probably any other Member,VAT is a broad-based tax on consumption, I think we all agree that listed buildings are an and the standard rate of 20% applies to the vast majority integral part of the shared history of our British life of goods and services. There are exceptions to the and culture, and that they greatly enrich that history. standard rate, but they are strictly limited by domestic The Government absolutely recognise—as, I know, does law as well as by fiscal considerations. Hon. Members every Member of the House—the importance of protecting will appreciate that we are not short of requests for VAT and making the most of that UK heritage. It is important relief in the Treasury. We have VAT reliefs for repairs not merely socially and culturally but economically. and improvements, but of course that includes repairs As my hon. Friend will know, the Government released to damage caused by floods or by the desperate events a heritage statement in 2017 setting out many ways in that have necessitated re-cladding of buildings for health which they support this sector. It is important to remind and safety reasons. In total, we are presently dealing ourselves that the Government write a cheque of £80 million with about £40 billion of requests for relief, many of or more towards heritage organisations. The listed places them triggered by the recognition that we are leaving of worship grant scheme was discussed at some length. the EU and seeking to exploit that fact for other purposes. That and the UK heritage organisations do valuable We must place this proposal in that category. preservation work. We also have Historic England and It is estimated that introducing a relief for the repair the Heritage Lottery Fund to fund and support general and maintenance of all buildings would cost the Exchequer advice and assistance for the conservation of heritage, something like £4 billion a year. We do not have an including listed buildings. estimate for listed buildings, but, as was pointed out, there are more than 450,000 of them in the UK, so such The Government recognise, however, the very specific a relief would undoubtedly be very substantial in quantum. challenges faced by private owners of listed properties Of course, that is a constraint on what we can do. in planning regulations. That is why the Government introduced measures to streamline the listed buildings Let me address the remarks by the hon. Member for consent regime in 2013, including by removing the need Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds), who was commendably for specific applications for minor works to listed buildings direct and straight about what exists: the 5% rate for the and giving local authorities the power to grant a general recovery of properties that have been empty for two consent. years. She is absolutely right to point out the target issue versus the dead-weight cost, which I also highlighted. My hon. Friend highlighted several mechanisms by She is also right about our concerns, reflecting wider which the goal he seeks could be achieved, one of which considerations on the state of the economy, and the is to extend the reduced rate—or possibly a nil rate—to need for a better understanding of the factual base for more goods and services, and so to reduce the up-front reliefs. Perhaps I can give her some comfort. costs associated with the refurbishment and renovation As the hon. Lady pointed out in response to my right of listed buildings. As he pointed out, we have some hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne), experience of a comparable relief in the past. Previously, who is no longer in his place, there is a relief available approved alterations to listed buildings were zero-rated for the installation of energy-saving materials on residential when used for residential use or by a charity. That relief properties, whether listed or unlisted. As she mentioned, was introduced to reduce the costs associated with we have measures to incentivise the use of listed buildings restoring or enhancing the unique character of a listed for residential purposes, as well as to increase the overall building or prolonging its active life. number of dwellings.Those measures cover listed buildings, Importantly,however,that is not actually what happened. so there is scope to support them in some circumstances. The majority of work carried out under that relief was I turn to some of the specific points made. My hon. for extension purposes rather than for maintenance, Friend the Member for South Thanet pointed out that and the relief did not deliver the original point and the relief is not directly comparable to its predecessor. purpose of the legislation. I am afraid that, in so doing, The question of targeting is therefore central to what we it deployed large amounts of taxpayers’ money in ways have discussed. There is fairness, because listed and that were not contemplated by Parliament when it unlisted buildings are treated in the same way. The hon. passed the legislation. That is why that legislation was Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) said withdrawn as part of the 2012 Budget. that the task for us all is to protect the homes that 355WH VAT (Listed Properties)4 MARCH 2020 VAT (Listed Properties) 356WH
[Jesse Norman] 5.42 pm people live in, and of course an enormously larger Craig Mackinlay: I thank all Members who took part number of people live in unlisted homes than in listed in the debate. I want to clarify one area: the Minister homes. The tax system tries to respect and acknowledge said that a lower rate of VATapplies to certain energy-saving that intuition. It would be difficult to narrow the scope measures, but, according to my understanding of the of a relief. Therefore, if one was to go down the path of types of properties under discussion, that is available a fund—my hon. Friend could raise that for a future only to those in receipt of a broad range of benefits. I fiscal event—such an approach could be a much closer understand that the lower rate is not available to those fit and be accommodated within existing planning not in receipt of benefit. frameworks. Anneliese Dodds: My understanding is that there is A point was made about anomalies. Of course, the still a reduction but it relates to the labour-materials tax system is full of anomalies and the question in many ratio in the cost of the overall installation. There is a ways is which anomalies one seeks to eliminate—my question about how many schemes fit within that, and hon. Friend wryly chuckles. Many of those anomalies the answer is possibly not very many. exist in the nature of reliefs, and it would be an odd Financial Secretary indeed who wished to resolve an anomaly by creating another relief. Craig Mackinlay: I thank the hon. Member, who has clarified that it is a complicated area. I thank the As a Government, we are committed to supporting Minister for his comments. Dare I say it, but I think I the preservation of historic buildings and homes and will be disappointed next week. the social and cultural contribution they make to our shared history. It is boilerplate but important to say that Question put and agreed to. the Treasury keeps all taxes under review and is always Resolved, willing to hear the case for what can be improved and That this House has considered VAT on listed properties. refined. Even though we do not, at this time and for the reasons given, plan to change the VAT treatment of renovations or repairs, I thank everyone who has 5.44 pm contributed to the debate. Sitting adjourned. 7MC Ministerial Corrections4 MARCH 2020 Ministerial Corrections 8MC
the UK with vital materials, such as equipment for Ministerial Correction laboratory tests, as well as other equipment including protective body suits and gloves. Wednesday 4 March 2020 [Official Report, 2 March 2020, Vol. 672, c. 636.] Letter of correction from the Minister for Asia: An error has been identified in my statement in FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE response to the urgent question. British Citizens Imprisoned Overseas and Coronavirus The correction information should have been: The following is an extract from the urgent question on British Citizens Imprisoned Overseas and Coronavirus Nigel Adams: France,Germanyand the United Kingdom on 2 March 2020. have expressed their full solidarity with those impacted by covid-19 in Iran. We are offering Iran a comprehensive Nigel Adams: France,Germanyand the United Kingdom package of both material and financial support to stem have expressed their full solidarity with those impacted the rapid spread of the disease. Today, a plane departed by covid-19 in Iran. We are offering Iran a comprehensive with vital materials, such as equipment for laboratory package of both material and financial support to stem tests, as well as other equipment including protective the rapid spread of the disease. Today, a plane departed body suits and gloves.
ORAL ANSWERS
Wednesday 4 March 2020
Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ...... 817 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Climate Change: Water Projects...... 822 Topical Questions ...... 824 Departmental Funding ...... 819 Developing World: Business Enabling...... 817 Female Education ...... 820 PRIME MINISTER ...... 826 Infrastructure in Developing Countries...... 823 Engagements...... 826 Sustainable Development Goals: Climate Action... 819 Funding for flood defences in Prestolee, Bolton..... 952 MINISTERIAL CORRECTION
Wednesday 4 March 2020
Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 7MC British Citizens Imprisoned Overseas and Coronavirus ...... 7MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,
not later than Wednesday 11 March 2020
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Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 672 Wednesday No. 34 4 March 2020
CONTENTS
Wednesday 4 March 2020
Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 817] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister
Personal Statement [Col. 837] Andrea Leadsom
International Development (Women’s Sanitary Products) [Col. 841] Bill presented, and read the First time
June Bank Holiday (Creation) [Col. 842] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Peter Bone)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time
Opposition Day [5th allotted day] Flooding [Col. 845] Motion—(Luke Pollard)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(George Eustice)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to Health Inequalities [Col. 903] Motion—(Jonathan Ashworth)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Jo Churchill)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to
Petition [Col. 952]
Children in the Care System: Sibling Contact [Col. 953] Debate on motion for Adjournment
Westminster Hall Huawei and 5G [Col. 273WH] Sports Coaches (Positions of Trust) [Col. 300WH] Asylum Decisions (Support for Refugees) [Col. 308WH] Mount Vernon Cancer Centre [Col. 333WH] VAT (Listed Properties) [Col. 341WH] General Debates
Ministerial Correction [Col. 7MC]
Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]